The Mindset and Self-Mastery Show

In this episode, Nick emphasizes the importance of mental health awareness, especially during Mental Health Awareness Month in May. Nick shares personal insights, practical strategies, and encourages ongoing mindfulness and self-care to improve mental well-being through practical tips.

About Nick McGowan

I’m Nick McGowan, an entrepreneur, podcaster, and mental health advocate, and I’ve been on a 20+ year journey of personal development, learning to master my mindset, emotions, and the art of living with purpose.

As a Mindset and Self-Mastery Mentor, I work with ambitious men and women who want to live their most authentic and joyous lives by helping them master their mindset, emotional awareness, and authentic communication. My mission is to empower people to lead lives that feel aligned, grounded, and truly their own.

Throughout my career, I’ve built teams, streamlined systems, and improved client experiences across SaaS, media, marketing, and personal development spaces. Whether I’m leading cross-functional projects, optimizing SEO, Podcasting, designing strategies, or guiding clients through transformation, I bring a hands-on, solution-focused approach to everything I do.

I’m also the host of The Mindset and Self-Mastery Show, where my guests and I unpack the stories that shape us, challenge us, and ultimately guide us back to who we are at our core. On this show, we uncover the secret gems others have discovered through trial and error and breakthroughs, so you can fast-track your growth and master your mindset in your pursuit of self-mastery. Check out the latest episode here.

With years of podcasting and two decades of marketing experience, I’ve mastered the storytelling, interview flow, strategy, and technical production that elevate a podcast from “just content” to something truly impactful. Whether you’re a leader looking to amplify your message, a seasoned speaker and podcast host looking to sharpen your edge, or even a beginner who is wondering how to share their message, I mentor thought leaders through every step of having the conversation they’re here to have on this planet.

So, what message are you here to share?!

Resources:

Check out other episodes about self-awareness and following our hearts

If you or anyone you know is struggling with their mental health, resources are out there for you. Check out the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) for local resources.

Here’s the song Nick mentioned, “Weighless” by Marconi Union. This is the shortened version, but try it out the next time you feel overwhelmed a bit.

Are you looking for ways to better manage your daily mindset, live a happier, more fulfilled life, and pursue the depths of your soul on your path to self-mastery? Schedule a free clarity session with Nick to see if mentoring is a good fit for you.

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Check out Nick’s website for more information: https://nickmcgowan.com/

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

https://youtu.be/AE_7YIKqNZs

In this episode, Nick speaks with Cleous Young about his journey of self-discovery, the importance of interests in life, and how giving up redundant pursuits can lead to greater fulfillment. They explore mindset shifts, the power of curiosity, and the role of legacy in personal growth. They also discuss the importance of self-awareness and curiosity in leaving a legacy and impacting lives through our stories.

About Cleous “GloWry” Young

CleousYoung is an author, speaker, and advocate for personal growth, resilience, and ethical living. Through his unique philosophy and storytelling, he helps both adults and children navigate adversity, discover purpose, and cultivate values such as kindness, integrity, and nobility. Cleous shares practical life lessons and inspiring perspectives to empower people to live intentionally and make a positive impact in their communities.

https://cleousyoung.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cleous-glowry-young-a1856218b/

https://www.instagram.com/cleousyoung/

Resources:

Are you looking for ways to better manage your daily mindset, live a happier, more fulfilled life, and pursue the depths of your soul on your path to self-mastery? Schedule a free clarity session with Nick to see if mentoring is a good fit for you.

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Check out Nick’s website for more information: https://nickmcgowan.com/

Learn more about our host, Nick McGowan.

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: Click Here To View The Episode Transcript

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

In this episode, Nick speaks with Dre Baldwin about his journey from basketball to internet entrepreneurship, emphasizing mindset, self-awareness, and overcoming challenges. Listen in to discover how his experiences shaped his approach to self-mastery and success.

What to listen for:

“You can have all the right skills, desire, motivation, and resources, but if you’re in the wrong vehicle, you will not get to where you want to get to.”

“To get to the actual issue, you really have to find out who’s the person behind the issue. Who’s the person behind the problem?”

About Dre Baldwin

Dre built Work On Your Game® to turn disciplined execution into dominance. A 4x TEDx speaker and 43-time author, Dre played pro basketball for 9 years. Today, he helps experts and entrepreneurs install mindset, systems, and strategy to scale from six to seven figures with presence and power.

Resources:

Check out other similar episodes:

Are you looking for ways to better manage your daily mindset, live a happier, more fulfilled life, and pursue the depths of your soul on your path to self-mastery? Schedule a free clarity session with Nick to see if mentoring is a good fit for you.

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Check out Nick’s website for more information: https://nickmcgowan.com/

Learn more about our host, Nick McGowan.

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:00.206)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self-Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show, we have Dre Baldwin. Dre, what’s going on, man? How are you doing?

Dre Baldwin (00:11.005)I’m doing great, Nick. How about yourself?

Nick McGowan (00:13.004)I’m good. I’m good. I’m stoked that you’re here. I think it’s gonna be a really good conversation. I told you right up front, I missed the memo for the suit. I’m sorry. But I appreciate you showing up and looking how you are. One of the things that stood out to me when you were your team member reached out about you being on the show was your history in basketball. And being able to tie that into the work that you’re doing now, and how your pursuit of your own version of self mastery has really flexed

through every single bit of this. So I know there’s a lot of stuff that we’re gonna get into, but that’s one of the main things that really stood out to me. So I’m excited that you’re here. I always like to get things started though with telling us what’s one thing that most people don’t know about you. It’s a little odd or bizarre and what do you do for a living?

Dre Baldwin (00:59.369)One thing that’s a little out of bizarre. once went out on a date with a woman who turned out to be a man and What do I do for a living is I hope I get to give context to that. But anyway, what do I do for a living is We have high level professionals with structured execution if I put it in the one statement

Nick McGowan (01:12.75)Yeah.

Nick McGowan (01:20.218)Cool. I appreciate that. I’m still chuckling a little bit like who in their right mind wouldn’t give you the platform to like follow up on that? Because the first thing I want to make sure is that you’re not saying it in a really hateful way. I assume that’s not the case. And based on what I know of you, that doesn’t seem to be the case. But again, who in their right mind be like, Nope, we’re leaving that they’re just gonna fucking cliffhanger. So go on, tell us the story.

Dre Baldwin (01:27.622)You

Dre Baldwin (01:46.739)So this is about, I was about 19, 18, 19 years of age. So we are both from the Philadelphia area. And every year in the summertime in Philadelphia, there’s this event called the Greek Picnic. I don’t know if you knew about it. So the Greek Picnic is all these fraternity and sorority organizations, usually the black fraternity sororities, they all have this big event down at, I think it’s the Belmont Plateau in Philadelphia. Then that’s during the day, the picnics during the day. Then at night, everybody goes to this place called South Street.

Nick McGowan (02:10.392)Mm-hmm.

Dre Baldwin (02:16.553)And South Street is a place in Philly where everybody just goes and walks. So was kind of like Times Square in Manhattan, the Strip in Vegas, Ocean Drive in Miami Beach. You have South Street in Philadelphia. So I did not pledge in college, but every year, even since I was in high school, we would always go to South Street and 90 degree picnic because everybody’s out there. It’s kind of like New Year’s Eve, Times Square. Everybody’s out there. It’s hard to drive, but there’s so many girls out there. You go out there just to talk to girls. So we go out there and talk to girls and I meet this girl. She was interested in me. I’m interested back. So we

exchange phone numbers and all of that. And she lived all the way down there near South Street. I lived up in the upper Northwest part of the city. I go and see her. didn’t actually go on. It technically wasn’t a date. We didn’t go anywhere. I just went to her house. We were basically sitting on the steps talking, but we sat there and talked for an hour or two. She had a roommate. Her roommate came by. She went, goes into the house and another guy while I’m sitting there talking to her, another guy comes up. He goes in to see the roommate. So anyway, we have the conversation, whatever I leave.

And a couple of days later, I’m talking to this girl on the phone and I think she noticed my naivete. And she said to me, Dre, I want to let you know something. She said, I’m a pre-op transsexual. I didn’t even quite know what that meant. And I was like, what does that mean? I did know, but I didn’t know. So I had her spell it out. And she said, no, I’m guy, I’m not as endowed as you, but I haven’t had the operation yet. And I just didn’t know. My vision was not.

tuned enough to have noticed this when it was all happening. And then I was thinking, I was like, well, what about that guy who came by while we were sitting on your steps, who went in the house to see your roommate? Because a ...

In this episode, Nick explores the concepts of confidence and certainty, their differences, and how they influence personal growth. He discusses practical insights on how understanding these can improve mindset, decision-making, and emotional resilience.

What to listen for:

“If we don’t have confidence, we’re probably pretty uncertain about something.”

“Confidence in the work, certainty in the results.”

About Nick McGowan

I’m Nick McGowan, an entrepreneur, podcaster, and mental health advocate, and I’ve been on a 20+ year journey of personal development, learning to master my mindset, emotions, and the art of living with purpose.

As a Mindset and Self-Mastery Mentor, I work with ambitious men and women who want to live their most authentic and joyous lives by helping them master their mindset, emotional awareness, and authentic communication. My mission is to empower people to lead lives that feel aligned, grounded, and truly their own.

Throughout my career, I’ve built teams, streamlined systems, and improved client experiences across SaaS, media, marketing, and personal development spaces. Whether I’m leading cross-functional projects, optimizing SEO, Podcasting, designing strategies, or guiding clients through transformation, I bring a hands-on, solution-focused approach to everything I do.

I’m also the host of The Mindset and Self-Mastery Show, where my guests and I unpack the stories that shape us, challenge us, and ultimately guide us back to who we are at our core. On this show, we uncover the secret gems others have discovered through trial and error and breakthroughs, so you can fast-track your growth and master your mindset in your pursuit of self-mastery. Check out the latest episode here.

With years of podcasting and two decades of marketing experience, I’ve mastered the storytelling, interview flow, strategy, and technical production that elevate a podcast from “just content” to something truly impactful. Whether you’re a leader looking to amplify your message, a seasoned speaker and podcast host looking to sharpen your edge, or even a beginner who is wondering how to share their message, I mentor thought leaders through every step of having the conversation they’re here to have on this planet.

So, what message are you here to share?!

Resources:

Check out other episodes about our confidence and clarity

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/

Learn more about our host, Nick McGowanhttps://nickmcgowan.com/

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan 00:00No matter what we’ve done in life or what we’re doing right now, whether that’s purpose work, working on past traumas and really trying to figure out how to manage our mindset on a daily, it comes down to us understanding from a confidence perspective that you may be confident in the thing that you’re doing. It’s not the exact same as being certain in how you’re going about it.

Nick McGowan 00:28Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self-Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show, I wanna talk about how confidence and certainty factor into personal growth. What is confidence, and what is certainty? Confidence is feeling like you’re able to actually get something done. It’s really the intent for the impact that you wanna have. You’re confident that you feel like you can get this thing done, whatever that thing is. Certainty is 100 % knowing that it’s going to happen.

Nick McGowan 00:58And there’s a small little bit of difference between those and really kind of a gray area where certainty and confidence can intersect, but they can also play at odds with each other. If you go into something certain that something’s going to happen, you’re going to lack confidence or maybe you’re going to have a bit more confidence. I think about it in the sense of if you know that you want to go in and have a really tough conversation with somebody you work with, that’s different.

Nick McGowan 01:26than a tough conversation with your partner or your spouse or somebody that you love. You may be certain going into that, that you have the facts, you have the things together, you need to be able to have the proper conversation. And you can feel confident knowing that you have those, but anything can happen at that point. Somebody could say something, somebody could bring something up that you’re unaware of, and that can knock down your confidence. That could absolutely destroy your certainty at that point.

Nick McGowan 01:55So if you think of confidence, just being confident in moving through the world, I’m sure you’ve seen different people that seem to be super confident, but have no idea what they’re doing in life. When you’re confident and you have this internal belief that what you’re doing, you’re going to give it your all and that you’re able to move into something without any hesitation, that’s vastly different than even having some confidence.

Nick McGowan 02:21Like if you kinda know I’m gonna move into this situation or this conversation and I feel good about what I’m doing, that’s vastly different than being able to move into something with full confidence. You’ve experienced that, we’ve all experienced that. No matter what we’ve done in life or what we’re doing right now, whether that’s purpose work or that’s working on past traumas and really trying to figure out how to manage our mindset on a daily, it comes down to us understanding from a confidence perspective.

Nick McGowan 02:51that you may be confident in the thing that you’re doing. It’s not the exact same as being certain in how you’re going about it. Makes me think of when people talk about practicing, practice makes perfect. I’ve also heard that if you practice the wrong things, of course you’re not gonna be perfect in what you’re trying to be perfect in, which makes sense. That’s kind of a duh situation. A lot of people will actually go through life working on things that they think they need to work on and being confident that they’re working

Nick McGowan 03:19on the things that they’re working on that actually tie to deeper core wounds and will make actual change in their life. They’re not certain about it. And finding certainty in what you’re doing can really take a level of confidence, but also a level of understanding and empathy and courageousness to be able to move through something with certainty. I feel like some of this may be a bit ambiguous and I’m somewhat trying to keep it that way because

Nick McGowan 03:48your situat...

In this episode, Nick speaks with Amber Richbook about her journey through identity, subconscious beliefs, and the impact of generational trauma. They explore the importance of awareness and the role of cultural identity in shaping our experiences and ultimately who we believe we are and what our “identity” means to us.

What to listen for:

“We all have different generational things running through our veins. What are we going to do with them? How are we going to reconcile? How are we going to bring the healing?”

“You must be willing to change identities as many times and as often as you feel led to”

About Amber Richbook

Amber Richbook is a transformational speaker and identity-shift coach who helps people move from simply existing to fully living. Through keynotes, coaching, and her podcast Meaningful Conversations, she teaches individuals to break self-limiting beliefs and take practical steps toward authentic, purpose-driven lives. She is a TEDx speaker and has appeared on PBS and corporate leadership platforms. Her mission is to become the go-to voice for mindset and identity transformation for a new generation.

Resources:

Check out other episodes about identity:

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/

Learn more about our host, Nick McGowan: https://nickmcgowan.com

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:00.495)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Amber Richbook. Amber, how are doing today?

Amber RichBook (00:22.403)Well, how are you Nick? Thank you for having me.

Nick McGowan (00:25.679)Yeah, absolutely. We were just shooting the shit for like a solid half hour. And again, one of those situations like let’s just record. So I’m stoked for you to be here. I think this is gonna be cool. We’re gonna get into a lot to talk about identity, subconscious limiting beliefs and your story. And even talking about regional and generational trauma and some of the things I’ve talked about on different episodes. But I think identity is a big part of that. I always like to start episodes off with something that’s a little

Amber RichBook (00:29.846)I know.

Nick McGowan (00:54.319)odd or bizarre about you that most people don’t know. So what do you got for me?

Amber RichBook (00:58.19)Okay, so one of my bizarre weird things that people don’t know about me is that I wrote about my life as a single mother of three daughters when I was in the first grade and my mom

She kept like this big bag, like everywhere we moved to, this was like this big bag of childhood memorabilia from myself and my siblings of things we drew and wrote in kindergarten, pre-K, first grade, second grade, like the little macaroni art that’s like happy Mother’s Day. Here’s a flower with glue and there’s missing pieces on it. And so, you know, in first grade when they have the writing pads with the story and you draw the little ugly picture and you think like,

Nick McGowan (01:32.655)Yeah, of course.

Amber RichBook (01:44.014)And it’s like Miss A takes her three daughters and the names were like J, E, A, like they were all like names with those initials. And my daughter’s names now have the initials J, A, and E. To get ice cream and they love driving in their really big truck.

and they love doing all these fun things together. They like dancing. like, there was no, was just this Miss A.

and her three daughters. And I remember years ago when I, well, my mom was like, kind of like, all right, you guys are grown, take your shit. Like I saved all of it. Let me show you guys that I actually cared about you as children. Like do with it what you want. I’m like, okay, so let me go through my stuff. And I’m just sitting there and I’m reading it. And I was like, can I curse? I was like, okay.

Nick McGowan (02:27.96)Yeah.

Nick McGowan (02:40.958)yeah.

Amber RichBook (02:42.86)I was like, Amber, what the fuck were you writing about in the fucking first grade? Like you’re writing about being a mom. Now, fun fact, I was the child, the friend, even in high school that used to call kids creatures. I was like, ill, be a mom. That’s so disgusting. Motherhood. So now there’s a running joke. Like every mother’s day, my friends from high school and college are like, dude, how did you become a mom?

Nick McGowan (02:45.443)Yeah.

Amber RichBook (03:09.836)Like that’s the joke. Like you’re a mom, bro. None of them are mothers, but I’m a mom. Dude, how did that happen? So I think that’s interesting because one of my favorite books is The Alchemist. I talk about it in my, started my Ted talk with it and it was like, we really go on this journey of life and all you’re doing is getting back to the core of who you are.

Nick McGowan (03:10.179)You

Nick McGowan (03:14.423)Ugh.

Nick McGowan (03:36.569)Yeah.

Amber RichBook (03:36.992)and your inner child, like those youthful experience where your imagination is purely untamed, not realizing that many of us have these gifts. We all have these gifts and abilities, but where were they most active? How were they most active?

and I’ll just layer it with this before I give it back to you. There was a thread that I saw recently that said, healers, spiritual people, did you have a near death experience that confirmed you...

In this episode, Nick dives into the significance of our inner dialogue and its profound impact on our external experiences. He emphasizes the importance of shaping our inner dialogue to navigate life’s challenges and the ups and downs we experience each day. Nick explores the mechanics of self-talk, the role of awareness in recognizing negative patterns, and the necessity of self-reflection in personal growth.

What to listen for:

“If we understand our internal dialogue, we can then make different decisions.”

“When we have the inner dialogue that isn’t actually healed, it’s not helpful for us; then it makes the rest of our lives more and more difficult.”

About Nick McGowan

I’m Nick McGowan, an entrepreneur, podcaster, and mental health advocate, and I’ve been on a 20+ year journey of personal development, learning to master my mindset, emotions, and the art of living with purpose.

As a Mindset and Self-Mastery Mentor, I work with ambitious men and women who want to live their most authentic and joyous lives by helping them master their mindset, emotional awareness, and authentic communication. My mission is to empower people to lead lives that feel aligned, grounded, and truly their own.

Throughout my career, I’ve built teams, streamlined systems, and improved client experiences across SaaS, media, marketing, and personal development spaces. Whether I’m leading cross-functional projects, optimizing SEO, Podcasting, designing strategies, or guiding clients through transformation, I bring a hands-on, solution-focused approach to everything I do.

I’m also the host of The Mindset and Self-Mastery Show, where my guests and I unpack the stories that shape us, challenge us, and ultimately guide us back to who we are at our core. On this show, we uncover the secret gems others have discovered through trial and error and breakthroughs, so you can fast-track your growth and master your mindset in your pursuit of self-mastery. Check out the latest episode here.

With years of podcasting and two decades of marketing experience, I’ve mastered the storytelling, interview flow, strategy, and technical production that elevate a podcast from “just content” to something truly impactful. Whether you’re a leader looking to amplify your message, a seasoned speaker and podcast host looking to sharpen your edge, or even a beginner who is wondering how to share their message, I mentor thought leaders through every step of having the conversation they’re here to have on this planet.

So, what message are you here to share?!

Resources:

Check out other episodes about our inner dialogue and managing negative self-talk.

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:00.302)Hello and welcome to the mindset and self mastery show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show, I want to talk about shaping our inner dialogue to get better external results. And on the show, I like to get really macro with things because I think that’s where change actually happens. It’s in those moments where we work on the stuff now before the situation happens that we’ll be better equipped to handle whatever situation comes up.

I’ve learned this the hard way. Sometimes I think I’m really prepared. I’m good to go. Then I get into a situation and something happens. It’s like, my God, I didn’t expect that to happen. I didn’t know how to handle it or whatever it was. And those moments can literally make or break us because sometimes when we’re going through a situation that we’re maybe a little uncomfortable with or not as confident about, we can start to falter on the things like our principles.

or the things that we know to be true and are really consistent within ourselves. So when I think about having an internal dialogue, that’s more of a positive mindset dialogue. This isn’t something to just bypass the stuff that you’ve been through. This is about being able to understand that the moment you’re in right then and there is the only moment that you actually have. So when you’re in that moment, whatever the situation is,

If your inner dialogue is in a negative place, let’s say, then that moment’s probably going to turn out not as good as you want it to be, just straight up. But if your inner dialogue is more on a positive note, and I’m using these as black and whites in a sense, then you’re bound to have a better overall experience because of the inner dialogue. So think about it this way. If you wake up in the morning and you instantly think,

Today’s gonna be such a shitty day. I hate all these things. I don’t even wanna get out of bed. don’t wanna ever. You probably argue with your partner. You yell at your kids or your animals or whatever. You get on the road, you drive to your office and you’re shitty with everybody else on the road.

Nick McGowan (02:37.462)if you woke up a little differently and had a overall mindset and experience from waking up, you probably, even if something happened with your spouse, your partner or your animals or the dude driving past you, you’re probably going to handle that situation differently, at least slightly differently. Now, if you wake up in the morning and you hate yourself and you hate everything that’s going on, there’s work there.

be done. It may also be part of your design. I’ve learned about myself that I will wake up in two different states. Super excited, or grumpy as fuck to put it nicely, because in those states, when I wake up and I am unsure of what I want to do or whatever it is that really determines what happens next. I’ve learned about myself that I’m in one of those two states for some reason that has happened the day before. I’ll give you a prime example.

I’ve been busy for the past few months and haven’t been able to play music as much. And I’m actively working on an album. And for me, playing music and even just working through concepts of riffs and just even drum parts for like three hours does magical things for me that helps me at a bass level feel like I’m doing something for myself.

Not just doing things for clients or for other people or even things for my business that are still for myself, but just, you know, they’re not me playing music and scratching that itch. Being able to spend a little bit of time with that has become really, really, really important to me because I understand that the more aware I am of that, the more that it’ll affect the next day. It’s not a magical pill. It’s not like, you know, I play guitar for two hours one night and then the next day it’s the best fucking day in the entire world. It’s not how this works.

But I do understand that that is a part of how I relate to the rest of the world. And I can be aware of that and do something with it. So let’s break down what inner dialogue is. You know what it is. It’s the talking to yourself. If we look at a shitty internal dialogue, you know exactly what that is as well, because I’m pretty sure you do it pretty often. We all do.

Nick McGowan (04:59.702)Even the people that say, ...

In this episode, Nick speaks with Patrick Boylan about the importance of curiosity in understanding others and navigating judgment. They discuss how asking questions can lead to empathy and a broader perspective, allowing for a more nuanced view of people’s beliefs and actions, all while highlighting the balance between judgment and understanding, advocating for a thoughtful approach to interpersonal relationships.

What to listen for:

“At the end of the day, it’s curiosity. Why do you think that? That’s the biggest question that anybody can ask.”

“We need to come together as a species and tackle our world’s issues together.”

About Patrick Boylan

Patrick Boylan is a skilled multi-instrumentalist and co-founder of MuseFlow, a groundbreaking music EdTech platform often called “The Duolingo of Music Education.” Frustrated by the limitations of traditional music education, Patrick began exploring self-directed practice, which reignited his passion for music and led him to focus on sight reading as an engaging learning tool. MuseFlow teaches bite-sized skills through sight reading, allowing students to master new concepts efficiently and enjoyably by focusing on reading and playing music at first sight, then applying those skills to songs that get unlocked. Patrick loves to share his insights on learning and EdTech, inspiring parents, teachers, and self-learners to help students and themselves achieve flow state through MuseFlow’s unique approach.

Resources:

Check out other episodes about curiosity

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Send Nick an email or schedule a time to discuss your podcast today!

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Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

00:00The one thing in my opinion that would turn the tides of humanity and make people more empathetic and connected to every person on this earth, that we need to come together as a species and tackle our world’s issues together.

00:23Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self-Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Patrick Boylan. Patrick, how you doing, man? Doing great. How you doing, man? I’m good. I’m excited you’re here. I think I say that a lot in the intros of shows because I’m having conversation with somebody and there are certain times where like lead time to get onto the show can be maybe a month, maybe two months. Then there are people like you, my friend, who…

00:48I joked earlier and was like, well, when you first sent your stuff in in 2009. Yeah, but it’s kind of what it felt like though, honestly. But some of those are the best. And truthfully, I’ve had two of you this week. I had one guy a couple of days ago who does drum circles and so much music. And he just disappeared at one point like two years ago and then came back. And I was like, yes, I was hoping you’d come back. So I’m glad that you’re here too. I want us to be able to touch on music, obviously, because of the business that you have and the thing that you’re doing.

01:18but I want us to be able to get into really how all of it has worked for you over the course of life and how it’s all shaped you to lead you to where you’re at today. Before we get there though, why don’t you get us started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre? I’m the co-founder of a music education app called Museflow. We teach piano in a very different way. We’re expanding to all common instruments in the next couple of years. So it’s growing, people are loving it.

01:47and I’m super stoked about it. Something that’s weird or that most people don’t know about me, I have two tattoos. I’ve got one on my butt, on my left butt cheek, it’s called, it’s just a family emblem that my dad drew on all of our napkins for lunches and uh Christmas cards and stuff like that. It’s four bunnies on two hills overlooking a sunset, and it’s our family. It’s me and my dad and my mom and my sister.

02:14and our cats and our dogs and all that stuff. It’s a really cute little tableau thing, right? The other one is on my upper hip and I got it in college. I got it when I just decided that truth and honesty are going to be the most important things in my life, okay? And so I got a whistleblower. I got a guy blowing a whistle. Didn’t realize how phallic that was when I got it on my upper thigh, you know?

02:43So it’s a little weird, but like I didn’t recognize that at the moment. What I was going for was like truth and honesty, right? And then I just, got it. And then I started doing, just being blunt, being like kind of mean about it. And like, wasn’t thinking about tact and I wasn’t thinking about like what my friends would be hurt by or if they, I didn’t care. I was just like, truth and honesty. This is just so important to my life. And like, I was being brutal about it.

03:12And so one of my friends pulls me aside one day and he says, Pat, you got to stop this. You’re just being a jerk. You’re being an asshole about this. Like, yes, truth and honesty is important. Okay. But you got to blend it with everything else. All right. Sometimes tact and holding your tongue is the right call. Cause I got to tell you, you’re ruining friendships right now. I know a couple of people that have talked about this already and they’re saying you’re just being an asshole and they don’t want to be friends with you anymore. So you got to fix yourself or

03:42you’re going to start losing friends. And I really trusted his opinion. He was one of my best friends. And so I listened to him and I pulled it back a bit. I pulled it back. I find it really interesting how your friend will lovingly say a thing to you, but also that you trust your friend. You know, like they’re the people that, um, they feel like they trust somebody out of, uh, I guess, systemic approach. Well, my family system tells me I should trust my parents.

04:09or I should trust my brother and sister, or I should take whatever they say, kind of as gospel in a sense. People obviously like shit upon people with their dreams or whatever else, but it’s sometimes in those small things where it’s like, that person is upset that you’re being an asshole about a thing, but for you to be aware of you were being an asshole about it. Like if you didn’t feel you were, you probably wouldn’t have accepted it. You’d have been like, what do you mean? No, I’m just being a little bit of a boast or a little bit of this, but there was a hint of you back there was probably like,

04:38The power feels good. You know, you’re like, yes, this is wonderful. Two things there, right? Number one, this is a historical relationship. This guy has been one of my good friends for, you know, years. And I’ve been working with him in very close contact throughout many different creative projects. He was a, he’s a director and I’m an actor. And so we worked on like seven or eight shows up until that point. And so I’ve worked with him.

05:07deeply and very closely and I really appreciate his judgment and his kind of pulse on people. Yeah, you know and so both of those things like I trust the guy with my life and I’ll I’ll I’ll do whatever he wants when it comes to a show I know he has my best interest at heart and and that’s the biggest thing, you know number tw...

In this episode, Nick speaks with Andrew Ecker to explore the cultural significance of drumming, particularly within indigenous communities, and highlights the historical context of drum circles as a means of fostering inclusivity and diversity and healing from trauma and addiction.

What to listen for:

“All of us are connected to the earth. All of us are indigenous. All of us have the air, the water, the fire, and the earth flowing through us.”

“Do something for people — and you’ll discover the truest truth of who you are.”

About Andrew Ecker

Andrew is a speaker, author, and creator of the Drumming Sounds Protocol, an evidence-based wellness intervention that blends ancient rhythm traditions with modern neuroscience to improve mental health, recovery, and community connection.

With over 25 years of experience facilitating more than 5,000 drumming and sound-based programs, Andrew has worked with hospitals, treatment centers, universities, and tribal nations across the country. His book, The Sacred 7, explores identity, ancestry, and the transformative power of ceremony—a topic that resonates deeply with audiences seeking meaning, resilience, and personal empowerment.

As a former youth outreach leader and recovery coach with over two decades in sobriety, Andrew brings a powerful, real-world perspective to conversations about trauma, healing, and spirituality. His ability to blend science, story, and spirit makes him a compelling guest for podcasts focused on wellness, recovery, leadership, and conscious living.

Resources:

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:02.959)Hello and welcome to the Mindset Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show, we have Andrew Ecker. Andrew, what’s going on?

Andrew Ecker (00:13.602)How’s it going, Nick?

Nick McGowan (00:15.649)It’s good. I’m glad that you’re here. I’m excited for us to talk about music and drum circles and sound healing and all the things that relate to all of that. And we were gonna have a call maybe like a year and a half ago or so. And there’ve been some people that have like backed out of the show and I’ve been like, that’s fine. You can do whatever you want to do. But you were one of the people I was like, I hope he comes back. So I’m glad that you’re here. I’m glad that people are gonna be able to hear this conversation. And why don’t you get us started?

Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre.

Andrew Ecker (00:48.769)Awesome. So before we do that, I’d like to just take a moment and honor myself in the space by introducing myself formally in traditional language of my ancestors. This is a language called Nde Baza, which basically means the people’s tongue. So Dago Tse, Tse Nde, Andirector Yenise, Adon Dae Nshinigye, Nde Nshe, Irish Pashachin, Nde Dasha Tshe, German Dasha Nali, Kote Goe Itshliye, Portland, Oregon, Enishe.

Shama’e, Kathy Lindsay Woye, Shaza’e Del Eccorale. So my name is Andrew Eccor, my mother Kathy Lindsay, my father Del Eccor, my mother’s mother Elva Gallegos, Apache woman from New Mexico. She grew up in a little town called Capitan right outside the Mescalero reservation. Although my ancestral lines go back to the Madera Valley of Texas and Chihuahua, Mexico. The Apaches from this area are called La Pond Band Apache. My father’s mother Evelyn Beatty, an Irish woman from Pennsylvania.

She actually was very proud that our ancestor William Beatty fought in the Revolutionary War to establish this country. So I do consider myself a son of the revolution on that side of my family. My mother’s father Leroy Lindsay, a Korean and Vietnam War veteran, and my father’s father Wayne Ecker, a World War II veteran. I have a daughter Bailey, son Peyton, a beloved fiancee named Monica. I was born in the ancestral land of the Multnomah Clackamas of Malamit in Portland, Oregon.

although I currently reside in the ancestral land of the Akmal, Atom, the Peaposh and the Hohokam in Phoenix, Arizona. And very grateful to be here with you. So the thing that I do primarily is I work in healthcare and I’m a drum circle facilitator and sound medicine practitioner and also a peer support specialist, recovery coach. Most of the work that I do is in

variety of different healthcare settings. So everything from psychiatric lockdowns to memory care, skilled nursing, prisons, jails, drug and alcohol treatment facilities, I facilitated about 5,000 wellness-based events with a protocol I’ve developed called Drumming Sounds. So Drumming Sounds is a step-by-step process of creating outcomes that are wellness-based. So reducing stress, increasing immunity, lowering blood pressure,

Andrew Ecker (03:13.865)helping people connect through music and really creating a safe, sacred space for people to come into group drumming. So group drumming is a really powerful wellness intervention and so it’s a small group of studies done on it and it’s pretty amazing what the science community has found. So yeah, so that’s what I do and also do some coaching stuff, of course, help people out. Something unique about me,

that a lot of people don’t know. You know, I grew up in a home where both my parents were addicted to drugs and my mom died of a cocaine overdose and my father died of cirrhosis of liver caused by hepatitis C. So growing up in that environment, I was around a lot of really intense experiences. And I think something that a lot of people don’t know about me is that because of that,

My relationship with PTSD as a child was something really intense and my first suicide attempt I was seven years old. I remember attempting to hang myself at seven and thankfully, you know, I didn’t succeed. But from the time of that first attempt till really probably my late 20s,

I was dealing with suicidal ideation and a severe relationship to other mental health concerns, including situational schizophrenia, depression, anxiety. These are all things I live in relationship with today.

Nick McGowan (05:01.261)So, where do I go from here? know, way to drop everything on us. I first off want to thank you and appreciate how you started this and being able to show back to your ancestors and being able to talk from your original language. I think we can sometimes forget about where we come from. Our genetics do not.

our generational trauma does not. There’s so many things that, like you dealt with so much with your parents. I’m sure we could just tackle through all of that, but what your parents dealt with, that then they transferred along to you and what their parents dealt with, et cetera, et cetera, and how all of that was tossed to us. Most people I don’t think really think about that because they just think, well, my parents are assholes, so I’m trying to do better or whatever. It’s like, well, let’s actually take steps back generations before that.

and before that, before that. And I think we can sometimes also forget about where you actually came from. Like you rattled off a lot of fami...

In this episode, Nick speaks with Lybi Ma about the importance of embracing all emotions, including those that are often deemed negative. They emphasize the need to sit with and process feelings rather than suppressing them, highlighting that experiencing emotions is a natural part of life.

What to listen for:

“We spend a lot of time negating half of our emotions. We want to feel happy and not depressed or not anxious, or we don’t want to feel anger. Feel these things.”

“People stop breathing when they’re tense and in the moment of being reactive to an unhappy situation. And when you stop breathing, cortisol goes up, and you become alert, and you’re looking for the predator. Just breathe and let your body work it out.”

About Lybi Ma

Lybi is the executive editor of Psychology Today. In addition to producing the print magazine, she also edits its website and blog platform, which hosts more than nine hundred authors, academic researchers, and journalists. She edited a Psychology Today book series covering topics such as anger, food addiction, and bipolar disorder. She has a blended family of five adult children and lives with her husband in Westchester, New York. Her newest book, HOW TO BE LESS MISERABLE, is available now from Blackstone Publishing.

Resources:

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:00.971)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Libby, how you doing today?

Lybi Ma (00:10.338)Good. Thank you for having me.

Nick McGowan (00:13.233)Absolutely, I’m excited that you’re here. I told you, I thought you were gonna be really academic and I think you’re gonna be able to tie that in with being an actual human. And I’m excited with all this. So why don’t you get us started? Yes, thank you. Thank you for breathing air with the rest of us. Why don’t you get this started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre?

Lybi Ma (00:25.121)breathing.

Lybi Ma (00:38.39)I am the executive editor at Psychology Today, and I’ve been there for quite a few decades. Not gonna tell you completely because I don’t want you to know my age. And something that, well, the thing about me is that we take my ex-husband on vacation with us. There you go.

Nick McGowan (01:06.644)So I appreciate that you basically just hold the mic there, like about to drop it and like, what do you want to do with this? I feel like there are people that would be like, and here’s some context to it. So I’ve got to ask what, what do you mean? How does that work? Does he physically go with you or is he like in a box? Okay.

Lybi Ma (01:22.222)Yeah, he’s, he comes with us. He shows up. We had three weddings in 13 months between my second husband and me. And they’re grown kids. And he came to my stepkids’ weddings and they call him Uncle Carl.

Nick McGowan (01:44.628)Cool. That’s really awesome. That is an odd thing that I, unfortunately that I think most people don’t experience. Yeah. Well, this is, this is a good thing to start on too. Cause I’ve actually had this conversation with somebody recently where they’re like, yeah, I’ve got a young kid and the mom and I don’t really, we don’t work, but we work really well together for the kid.

Lybi Ma (01:54.211)I gave you one, didn’t I? I gave you one.

Nick McGowan (02:10.919)And that was really important. Like I could see him almost like put his foot in the ground. Like this is what we’re doing specifically for a child. That’s not how I grew up. Like my mom and dad, they’re still basically like a town or two apart from each other. They’ll see each other at a bar somewhere and like snarl at each other. Like I am 41 years old, calm down. It’s been a long ass time. However, my dad and his ex-wife are great friends because of the relationship that they had and all that. My dad actually…

Lybi Ma (02:29.613)Okay.

Nick McGowan (02:40.827)met her husband, shook his hand with a hundred dollar bill and said, thank you. It’s your turn. I’m like, the kahones on that man for that. But that’s an interesting thing that you can actually have that. Now I would imagine, look, you work for psychology today. You’ve probably done a lot of work on yourself and through your relationships and healed through things. But can you give us a little bit of context of like how the heck that works?

Lybi Ma (02:48.59)I like that. That’s funny.

Lybi Ma (03:07.8)So in the beginning when I first got divorced, I thought, I’m never speaking to this person again. And that lasted for a little while. And I actually worked through his second wife. I needed her to pick up the kids. So as you know, we had a very friendly situation. And I thought, well, this is not really good for the kids. So I think I better.

start being more amenable to the whole thing. And I got this job and it helped me. This job, I read a lot of information. Constance Ahrens did research. She did a good book on divorced kids. And basically divorced kids can do well if

The parents get along and there’s no conflict in their household. And as long as each parent has a good relationship with the child, they’re probably going to do well. And I will have to say that my children did very well.

So yeah, it worked out. And yeah, and it also helps when you have a person like my ex-husband who is very amiable. He wants to be friendly and he has a crazy romance with my husband, a bromance, sorry, not romance, a bromance. They have a thing going on. So there you go.

Nick McGowan (04:28.454)awesome.

Nick McGowan (04:48.86)Ha

Nick McGowan (04:54.473)Which you probably didn’t think like we’re getting a divorce at some point I’ll be married again and he’ll be great friends with my then husband. Like could you have written that you know?

Lybi Ma (05:01.13)No, no, I had no idea. No idea. No. Getting along is better. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (05:06.097)Yeah.

That’s interesting. Yeah. But I, I find it interesting how sometimes we, people can say, there was this period of time and then a period of lapse. And then I realized this thing and then another period and here we are. There was a lot of time in between then and this conversation right now. And even the times where I’m sure you were super frustrated, upset, pissed the whole nine and then maybe I could do things different. And I think sometimes we blow past that because

Lybi Ma (05:33.25)Yeah.

Nick McGowan (05:39.312)Maybe context isn’t always important in all the situations. However, I want to say it’s pretty much always super important. And that’s really what the purpose of the show is to be able to kind of talk about those tough times. Like you went through a divorce, but you saw it as I’m going to help with the kids. And this is more important for my kids. And now you’re seeing your kids in action from the result of what you guys have done. It’s really hard for people to see the stuff th...

In this episode, Nick speaks with Anne Wallen to dive into the intricate relationship between maternal health, psychological preparation for parenting, and the impact of childhood trauma on parenting styles. Anne shares her personal journey as a maternal health professional and mother of six, emphasizing the importance of meeting a baby’s needs and the psychological aspects of parenting.

What to listen for:

“Unhealed wounds don’t disappear when you become a parent; they show up.”

“Safety is the foundation of healthy development.”

About Anne Wallen

Anne is a respected figure in women’s health with over 30 years of experience and is a leading voice on global change in maternity care – particularly for those at greatest risk. She continues to educate and empower birth professionals in more than 20 countries, contributes to a variety of curricula, and shapes the future of maternal health through her impactful role as a speaker and mentor. Anne is the Director and co-founder of MaternityWise International, and her legacy lies in inspiring generational changes around and elevating women’s healthcare worldwide.

Resources:

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:00.91)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Anne Wellen. Anne, how you doing today? I’m good. I’m really excited to get into this. I think this is going to be a different conversation than what we typically have, but we were just talking and talking and at one point you’re like, you’re not recording? I’m like, no, let’s start this now.

Anne Wallen (00:10.602)I’m good, how are you?

Nick McGowan (00:25.614)So this will be great. And why don’t you kick us off? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre.

Anne Wallen (00:34.382)Okay, well, I am the director of Maternity Wise International, which what we do is we train doulas and childbirth educators and lactation support people. I’ve been doing this for 23, 24 years now, and it’s pretty much my life. I love maternal health. It’s so, important to every human on this planet. And maybe the…

An interesting factoid about me is that I have six kids. A lot of people, when you tell them you have six kids, they’re like, my gosh. And yes, I birthed them all. But five of them are adults. I have a little nine-year-old as well. She was a surprise, like the best kind of surprise. But yeah, so my six kids and yes, that’s really the main reason why I got into the work that I got into when I had my first at 17.

and didn’t feel like I could be the mom that she deserved, loved her so, so, so much. And I had some family friends that I grew up with who actually babysat me who had been struggling with fertility issues. And so I chose to let them adopt her. And we have had an amazing, beautiful extended family relationship. And she recently gave birth to her first daughter just this summer. So I am officially a grandma in addition to all the other things that I do, but

Yeah, that’s a little factoid that most people don’t know. But she’s part of the reason she’s the main reason why I became a mental health professional or a maternal health professional. And a lot of the way things have gone through my life, not just how I was raised, but experiences thereafter have gotten me very interested in mental health. And so I like to kind of create this intersection between the both worlds. And I look at things from a very psychological perspective. So this is

This is gonna be a fun one.

Nick McGowan (02:29.229)Yeah, I think everything ties back into that. It’s not even just a physical thing. Like I even said to you, somebody has a baby and they go home and how their partner reacts to whatever’s going on or the chaos or whatever the thing is, how does that then tie into the baby and how does the baby move throughout life? Even with you having a kid at 17, you are a child at 17. Though I’m sure we can both think back to 17 years old and thinking I’m grown ass adult and I can do all the things in the world, but you are not. You’re a child.

Anne Wallen (02:50.412)Hmm.

Nick McGowan (02:59.039)And the fact that you had somebody that you could hand the baby over to that you knew, you trusted, and you were able to have a relationship, it sounds like that could almost be like an ABC sitcom, you know what I mean?

Anne Wallen (03:05.325)Mm-hmm.

Anne Wallen (03:13.356)Yeah, well, I mean, my life is, I always joke that, like, that’s just the tip of the iceberg. But I always joke that, you know, Hallmark probably wouldn’t agree to make a movie because my life is so far-fetched. But yes, that’s, that was such a, such a blessing because I really knew that I was not going to be able to do what she needed as far as mothering. And I’ve, you know, hadn’t even finished high school yet. And

my wonderful, wonderful and she was my next door neighbor growing up. And I just knew that they were the right people to take care of her and they raised her and she’s an amazing human being. And it’s just really wonderful to have this open relationship at this point, especially, you know, now that she’s having babies of her own. it was really cool too during COVID. She took one of my doula trainings because she was going to be a doula for a friend of hers. So

Just a really cool, you know, like sometimes things just come full circle and you just, little blessings, little surprises. So.

Nick McGowan (04:22.764)And you wouldn’t have been able to script that. Like, I love when that stuff happens in life where it’s like, I’m gonna have a baby, hand it over to my neighbor, because I love them. And then years later, like, really? Somebody would be like, that’s crazy. Get out of my office, you know?

Anne Wallen (04:24.863)No!

Anne Wallen (04:37.355)Yeah, well, I I knew that I didn’t, I knew that I probably wouldn’t be okay with just never knowing. know, some moms, and I’ve supported moms as their doula through giving their baby away. I’ve supported adopting families as well. it’s, I am really, really fortunate because I don’t think that most people could go through that experience and it would be, I mean,

Don’t get me wrong, it was heartbreaking. It’s still heartbreaking that I wasn’t able to raise her myself. I mean, I’ve had five other kids since then and I know what it is to be a mom and I know what things I’ve missed out on. But being able to have an open adoption is really, really something special and I know some people don’t have that option. And so to be able to give your baby to someone that you think that you can trust and then hope that they’re doing what you would want them to do.

That’s a whole level of, yeah, that’s tough, that’s hard. So, yeah.

Nick McGowan (05:43.52)could only imagine. I have no idea what that would be like. I don’t have kids, not gonna have kids. And I couldn’t imagine what that’s like just handing a child over. I’ve talked to different people that have had either abortions or they’ve adopted, they’ve handed kids off to be adopted and then just haven’t ever talked to them again or people that have had some kid that are like, hey, by the way, about 30 years ago, you and my mom on a beach.

And here we ar...