“Therapy was something that really helped me navigate that point in my life. And then, as I was starting to heal childhood patterns and beliefs, I started to realize that all men, in a way, struggle with this.”
In this episode, Nick speaks with Furkhan Dandia, an engineer turned therapist, about his journey and the intersection of engineering and therapy. They discuss the importance of therapy as a tool for personal growth and the need for a holistic approach to healing. Listen in as they explore the role of spirituality in the healing process and the concept of viewing challenges as opportunities for growth, as well as the importance of patience, self-compassion, and perseverance in the journey of self-discovery and personal development.
“As an engineer, my go-to default is to jump into problem-solving. As a therapist, you don’t wanna do that.”
“We as individuals already know what we need to do, and sometimes we just need to talk it out.”
“Therapy is like your coach. The coach will give you a play, but at the end of the day, you have to go out there and execute that play.”
Furkhan Dandia is a therapist, author, and podcaster. Furkhan’s journey of purpose began when he went through a divorce and separation. At the time, Furkhan was mired in an existential crisis despite having a successful corporate career as an engineer. When Furkhan started to seek therapy, he realized other men like himself also struggled similarly. That is when Furkhan decided his purpose was to become an advocate for men and their mental health.
Check out these episodes that tackle the topic of shame
Episode #116 with J.K Emezi: “How To Stop Struggling With Secret Compulsions And Not Let Your Porn Habit Define You”
Episode #125 with Ann Russo: “Exploring The Hidden Links Between Shame, Sexuality, And Religion”
Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Send Nick an email or schedule a time to discuss your podcast today!
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Click To View The Episode Transcript
Nick McGowan (00:01.295)
Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan and today on the show I have Furkhan Dandia. Furkhan, how you doing today?
Furkhan Dandia (00:14.677)
Doing great. Thank you. How about yourself?
Nick McGowan (00:15.119)
I’m good, man. I just told you that we’re taking a little bit of a trip over the course of the next few months. So kind of getting situated into different spaces. People that regularly watch this on YouTube will notice that the background is different. We’ll be working on that, but it’s kind of cool when you’re able to run a business and podcast, things of that sort from wherever. Today we’re in Denver for the next few days watching some awesome pup.
I think it’s awesome how we get to do that, but it’s based on the things that we’ve done in the past that have led us to where we’re at today, which is basically kind of what we’re gonna get into. So I don’t wanna steal your thunder, man. Why don’t you tell us, what do you do for a living and what’s one thing that most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre?
Furkhan Dandia (01:00.085)
Yeah, well, I think the two would go hand in hand. So originally, I graduated from university with an engineering degree that was like 18, 19 years ago. So I work as an engineer in oil and gas. During the pandemic, I applied for a master’s in psychology, which I finished at the end of last year. So now I’m also doing therapy on the side part time. So not a lot of people know about my engineering background.
but it does factor in from time to time. It pays majority of the bills as I’m trying to get into the therapy space and build up the clientele. So doing both right now and it’s, therapy has been really rewarding for me, both from receiving it as well as now providing it. And it’s really shaped who I’ve become. But yeah, I would say the engineering side is something that not a lot of people know.
pretty good with numbers and the physics sides of things because I have a mechanical engineering background. So yeah.
Nick McGowan (02:05.07)
Hmm.
You know, right off the bat, it seems like it could be like, how did you go from engineering to therapy? But if we think about it, a lot of what we do, especially on a cellular level is engineering. We have to re -engineer the way that we look at things, the way that we operate, the way that we react to things or respond to things. And I think that can be really helpful. I don’t personally have kind of the direct engineering mind.
but their friends and family members and people that I’ve met on the podcast and clients and all that have that, that I can see how when you look at things from an engineering perspective, you almost look at it like, well, how did the mechanics work? How does this tie into this thing and that thing, et cetera, which must be a really cool situation for you to go from, I look at how these things operate to how do you as a human, as a biological creature and all these different synapses and all these
things that are almost mystic in some ways, how do those all interact with each other? So talk to us a little bit about how you actually got to where you’re at to be able to look at those things. And I mean, do you kind of look at it similarly?
Furkhan Dandia (03:18.165)
Yes, there is the tendency to look at things similarly, but I would also caution myself at times because as an engineer, my go -to default is to jump into problem solving. And as a therapist, you don’t want to do that. Or in general, in my relationship too, I have to be mindful of being aware of, okay, what does my wife need from me? Does she want me to solve the problem or she just wants me to…
Nick McGowan (03:29.102)
Mmm.
Nick McGowan (03:41.678)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (03:46.005)
here or out and that’s kind of the approach I like to take with clients as well to understand, okay, majority of the times they, I’m a firm believer that we as individuals already know what we need to do and sometimes we just need to talk it out. And my role as a therapist is to then help them explore that and guide rather than give them advice or try to solve the problem for them. So there is that bit of a difference between coming from an engineering background and as a therapist.
becoming a therapist, but I do agree with you. There is that other deeper understanding that I like to have and get into the nitty gritty and the details of how do we humans work. And that’s sent me on a completely different exploration of trying to understand history, trying to get into the neuroscience of it, which has really served me as well in this space. Now, how did I get here? six years ago,
I separated, it’s been actually over six years, separated from my ex -wife and was going through a divorce. And at that time I really went towards the therapy route. There was a lot of shame and cultural pressure I was experiencing and I didn’t feel comfortable or safe having these conversations that I was struggling to have with friends and family. I just didn’t feel that level of trust or support. So therapy was something that really helped me navigate that point in my life.
Nick McGowan (04:56.172)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (05:13.877)
And then as I was starting to heal childhood patterns and beliefs, I started to realize that all men in a way struggle with this. Mine came to the surface during divorce, but for other men, it could be something else that brings it to the surface. So as I was on that journey, I was feeling like called to step into this space of being an advocate from a mental health side of things. And that’s why during the pandemic,
Going into it, I was already applying to programs at different universities. And then I actually started the program during the pandemic, which really helped me. And so that’s kind of what allowed me to come into that space. I also started a podcast during the pandemic as well. And I was the goal was to have conversations like these as well and bring to the surface some of the mental health issues that we experienced, especially as men and.
Nick McGowan (06:09.131)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (06:12.597)
Hopefully give others the sense that they’re not alone in their struggles. I think for me, being able to participate in men’s groups or having these conversations lessen that burden I was experiencing and the shame was starting to dissipate because I was talking about it more and I wasn’t running from the problems or hiding because of the shame, which really helped me. And that was kind of the goal of the podcast to help others who…
Nick McGowan (06:33.836)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (06:42.421)
wanted to check it out and listen to the episodes.
Nick McGowan (06:44.203)
man, there’s a, there are a few different things that you’ve pointed out, but it’s interesting the similarities that we both have and being able to have that. Let’s be real with each other. It’s selflessly selfish with the podcast. Like you want to be able to help, but you also want to be able to learn and grow and work through your own things and all of that. And it’s almost like the one hand scratches the other, which is pretty cool. But for you to write off the bat, say that.
Furkhan Dandia (06:53.525)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (07:04.565)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (07:11.979)
as the engineering mind, you don’t want to go in and fix because that’s your job as an engineer. Like, why the fuck is this broken? Fix the thing, you know? And spoken as a, as a true man who’s been married before and maybe currently married or in a relationship where you’re like, my job is not to fix. My job is mostly to listen and bite my tongue. And I truly believe, especially if you have a great partner, I think the right chemistry and the right people that work together.
we as individuals, like you had pointed out, we know for the most part, what’s inside. We have that inner guidance and that wisdom. We sometimes need to talk it out and sometimes we don’t, we need to process through it. And then there are other times where we really need to deeply process through at a cellular level and go through the stories and subconscious pieces of like, why do I look at it this way? and I too went through a divorce a number of years ago and started mentoring men because of tough times that I was going through and that others were going through.
And part of that was during the pandemic and most of it came after that, but similarly setting up a podcast because there was one person I talked to at one point, he told me some pretty messed up things. He was touched as a child, molestation as a child. And I remember thinking like, how do I, how do I share this? Because this was a breakthrough for him in the conversation that we had.
Furkhan Dandia (08:25.269)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (08:33.973)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (08:35.531)
And at the time I was heavy on social media, no longer heavy on social media. But I remember thinking like, I can’t jump on Instagram or Facebook and be like, yeah, I just talked to a client who told me he was touched at seven. Like, what the fuck? You can’t do that. And I was like, how do we facilitate these conversations and be able to open up healing for other people, men primarily, cause that’s kind of where my heart was at the moment, but then people, then that’s where this came to be. So I’m glad that we’re both kind of on that same path, but it’s an interesting thing.
Furkhan Dandia (08:48.309)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (09:00.245)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (09:04.619)
Like you pointed out the calling of it, being able to be called to do these things. So the conversations that you’ve had with people on your podcast, some of the clients that you’ve worked with, even the conversations you’ve had from a therapeutic standpoint.
Furkhan Dandia (09:11.413)
Hmm.
Nick McGowan (09:21.258)
I would just want to call it out that therapy is a piece of the process. It’s not the entire process. Do you agree with that?
Furkhan Dandia (09:29.88)
Hmm. Absolutely. I think, and I can only speak to my personal experience, but I do see that often in clients too, that therapy got me to the point where I was able to recognize some of the hidden, I guess, below the surface, some of the hidden things that were going on or some of the patterns that I was repeating. And it was good for me to get curious and tap into that. And there’s
An aspect of transpersonal psychology that I’ve come to realize is that, you know, just briefly explaining there’s the cognitive development that therapy can provide, but then there’s a spiritual development that needs to happen. And for me, that was the second part of the journey that took on a form as I was healing through therapy. And that’s been instrumental and it’s allowed for exponential growth for him on my end. But yeah.
To your point, therapy is only part of it. There’s other layers. There’s relationships too. I think that help. And for me, there’s three or four things I like to prioritize is one, the mental health, two, the physical health, and then third, my spiritual health. And then relationships kind of overlap with all three. But, you know, the therapy plays into that mental health part.
Nick McGowan (10:45.001)
Hmm, yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (10:52.629)
for sure, but there’s other layers we need to prioritize and focus on as well.
Nick McGowan (10:55.786)
Yeah. And it’s funny because I’m sure there are people that’ll listen to this that go, well, you just called out therapy. Like, but isn’t therapy all the things? Like, no, the more that you learn and the more that you understand, the more that you see that there are so many layers to it. I often think about a piece of paper. A piece of paper isn’t just one piece of paper. It’s so many layers mashed together so that you can write on the thing, but it still looks super thin. There’s so many different layers to this.
And it makes me sad at times when I talk to people like, man, I’ve done therapy, I’ve talked to people and they don’t want to do anything after that. They’re like jaded, they’re shut down by it because I believe deep inside of them, they know like, hey, I got to the point where I got to, but I actually need help deeper than that and outside of that. And I’m glad that you brought up the spirituality side. Talk to us a little bit more about that. What did that look like for you?
Furkhan Dandia (11:46.965)
Yeah, I think for me, I was still dealing with other things that had started to come to the surface. My son was moving away with my ex and I think there was an aspect coming out of the marriage. I almost had like this, I was trying to make up for lost time.
for lack of a better term. So I kind of went into this hedonistic lifestyle and deep down it just didn’t feel right, but it became a chase. It was like a high, right? So you go out, you have fun, and then the next day you wake up, you feel like crap because…
You’re like, I want to be around people. I want to be experiencing this. I feel alone right now. So you’re constantly on that chase. And it was starting to get old. And again, I think you get pulled. I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit over the last few days. So I’ll formulate it here as well. But it was like the best way I can explain it, I was being beckoned in a way. And my higher power was pulling me closer.
to where I needed to be. And that’s essentially what started happening as I look back, it was just one micro moment at a time that was leading me on this path. And I just didn’t know where it was going. I was just kind of leading into it. And I just felt at one point, I just felt, started to feel this deeper connection with the universe and everything around me, all of creation. And I felt like I’m gonna be okay.
Nick McGowan (13:24.84)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (13:26.741)
that anxiety and the depression I was experiencing because of some of the choices I was making started to just go away. And the more I accepted things and the more I leaned into that aspect of my being, the better things started to get. And it’s just now that’s just become a huge part of my life and who I am.
And I know how to tap into it, which is amazing because anytime things start to get tough or adversity comes my way, I’m tapping into that piece and knowing that, okay, I’m going to be fine. I just need to be patient or whatever it needs right now. And still having space.
and compassion for myself to give myself permission at times to still have the human experience and be upset at times, be irritated at how things are progressing in life. But that’s okay. That’s part of the experience and part of the journey. And the more I, again, lean into it and let myself experience it, the more I learn.
Nick McGowan (14:15.719)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (14:34.997)
And now the mindset has shifted where often these things, I look at them as opportunities because I feel this opportunity in front of me right now is going to teach me something. And I’m going to come out of this, a different person, a more evolved individual, and it’s going to serve me next time. So that’s kind of what’s really helped me from that spiritual sense. I do want to add another piece to, you know, when we were talking about therapy.
Nick McGowan (14:45.479)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (15:04.629)
And we, you and I were talking about sports before we jumped on this. I like to use sports analogies, but therapy is like your coach, right? So the coach will kind of give you a play, but at the end of the day, you have to go out there and execute that play. You still have to go to the gym and work out and do strength training. You still have to watch the videos. You still have to eat right. So there’s all these other things you have to do. Yes, your coach is a huge part of your.
Nick McGowan (15:11.943)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (15:34.261)
development and your execution, but it’s a small part. You’re still having to do a lot on your own to go out there and make the play and perform.
Nick McGowan (15:43.203)
Yeah. I’m glad that you brought that up. You know, sometimes people think like with coaching, mentoring or consulting or just basically working with another human in a direct way. Therapy being part of all of that. Some people will be like, no, I’m not a coach. I’m not going to pull you out of the game or I’m not going to do this or do that. But I think it’s the way that we kind of look at it. Like you’re saying where we can’t do the work for you. You need to do the work. And I’m glad that you ended that
with the coaching piece to it because you brought up the opportunities. And I’m gonna get a bit macro with that because we’ve all heard that. And like I said to you before we hit record, like I take things and we go fucking deeper with it because that’s what this is about. Like, yes, we can look at things as an opportunity. And for those of you who are actively going, shut the fuck up right now. It’s not about just the opportunity of it. It’s about the momentum.
Furkhan Dandia (16:20.693)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (16:26.549)
Yeah.
Nick McGowan (16:39.046)
It’s about the journey, it’s about the pieces that wrap around it. And I’m really glad that you’d mentioned about how we can still be human. We have those moments where you’re gonna be upset and you have to allow your nervous system to do that. Just like when people are like, you need to calm down. Somebody tells me to calm down, it just shoots me straight through the roof. Because my nervous system is like, we fucking can’t. We need to get this energy out. We need to do this. Some of it, if we get even deeper with it, is a systemic issue. It’s a cultural thing.
Furkhan Dandia (17:01.461)
Hmm.
Nick McGowan (17:08.678)
It’s an environmental thing. There are all these pieces that go along with it. And if you really take a step outside of yourself and go, well, what the fuck? Why am I so angry right now? Why am I so upset? Or why am I so sad? Or whatever that is, we can then start to take those things apart to actually give a heavier weight to the opportunity. Because if we look at it and just go, well, well, something shitty happened and it’s an opportunity for me to do something else with it. Like we’ve all heard that bullshit.
And I’m bringing that up because I know you and I can get deeper with that where it’s, yes, it’s an opportunity, but why is it an opportunity? And what are all the things that go around it to then be able to make it an opportunity where you can go, this is really the self -awareness I have at the moment to go, I need to do something with this. What are your thoughts on that?
Furkhan Dandia (17:39.317)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (17:46.805)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (17:58.453)
Yeah, I agree with you. It’s not as clear cut. And I like to remind myself and others too, that I’m also a work in progress, right? So, and that’s important because when things happen, it’s not like I’m like immediately like, okay, what’s the opportunity here? How can I make the most of this? It is messy. It is messy. But there’s tools and skills I’ve acquired over time.
Nick McGowan (18:00.325)
Yeah.
Nick McGowan (18:16.101)
Yeah, of course.
Furkhan Dandia (18:26.869)
through life experiences. And I think everyone needs to go through various experiences. That’s just what life is. And we all need to get to certain places. And one of the things I’ve really internalized in the therapy world, and that’s then extended to a lot of my relationships with friends and family is meeting people where they are. We are all at a certain point where we need to be. And that’s important to remember. But…
Nick McGowan (18:46.213)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (18:54.677)
When it comes to things as they’re happening, I need to work through them. And the process is always different. Sometimes it’s easier and sometimes it’s a lot. It takes time. It could take days. It could take months. But it depends on the situation, obviously. But I’ll journal. I’ll go for walks. I’ll go into nature and I’ll try various things depending on the impact it’s having on.
Right? So that’s where it over time after working through it, maybe it’s going to the therapist, maybe it’s talking it out with friends. Maybe it’s talking about it in my men’s group. Maybe it’s talking about it in the groups I facilitate as a therapist and putting it out there with clients as well. But there’s various resources or things I have around me that I can use. Maybe it’s meditating, whatever it is, it takes time. And then
Nick McGowan (19:37.252)
Mm.
Furkhan Dandia (19:52.629)
As I start moving through it, as I get wiser, as I start gaining more insight, as I take some of the feedback I’m getting from people, then I can start seeing it as an opportunity. And sometimes it could take, you know, for example, even with the spiritual path or experiences I’ve had, it’s taken me like three or four years to look back and start making sense of it. And there’s still a lot of things that don’t make sense and they may never make sense.
Nick McGowan (20:18.052)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (20:22.357)
But over time, with the gift of hindsight and some of the wisdom we develop through just experiences, we can look back and then see the opportunities. And it’s not always obvious in the moment. And as I’ve shared, it’s taken me years to look back. When I look back at going through a divorce and some of the experiences I was having then, only now…
after now getting remarried and I look back, I’m like, I needed to go through all of that to become the person who I am today. And now I can identify that opportunity.
Nick McGowan (20:52.26)
Yeah.
Nick McGowan (20:56.132)
Hmm. As an engineer, that’s got to be kind of tough though. Cause if you’re like, shit, if I knew that stuff before and I could have routed my way through it, I could have maybe solved myself from it, but you would have been a different person. And it’s interesting how we, we are right now. we can only talk about here we are in 2024. things were vastly different technologically, you know, even relationship wise because of technology 20 years ago.
Furkhan Dandia (21:06.517)
Yeah. Yes.
Nick McGowan (21:23.011)
Think about 50 years ago 100 years ago, whatever but there were still the trauma that was within ourselves the generational trauma that became well, you don’t do it this way We do it like this or this is how you go about this and I think sometimes I’ve realized within myself that I Just want the problem fixed like I don’t I don’t want to fucking deal with it. I just want it fixed but that journey of the
Furkhan Dandia (21:30.837)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (21:47.94)
Fixing let’s say or working through and processing through all of it understanding how it all works is Really where the fix is happening it can be really difficult for us as people to not want that immediate thing because shit if you have a question you just hop online and you type it in there’s an answer and at this point you have AI throwing you answers immediately before you even ask But it’s like how do you get to that point where we can then take a step back and go it’s gonna take some time
Furkhan Dandia (22:13.461)
Hmm.
Nick McGowan (22:18.116)
that’s probably gonna be frustrating. But it’s also going to be healthy and therapeutic as you work through it. And sitting in that duality of it, because for the most part, I believe we as people don’t want to hurt. You know, I’m sure there are some that are like, ooh, bring it on. But for the most part, most people don’t want that pain, they want the solution, they want the thing to be fixed, but they also want the benefits of it.
Furkhan Dandia (22:30.325)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (22:38.965)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (22:45.091)
Somebody said to me years and years ago, everybody wants to make the money that doctors do, but they don’t want to go through all the schooling to be able to do it. Similar in this sort of way. So from your perspective and how you’ve worked through all of that, even saying like, it’s been three, four years and here’s where I’m at and I still have a lot further to go. How do you manage your mindset through that and understanding that you’re still going to make those mistakes. You’re still going to be grumpy or pissed off or sad, or you’re still going to have the human experience.
Furkhan Dandia (22:46.645)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (23:13.347)
but you can also still work through that and understand that all of it together is creating the whole person that you are ultimately going to be.
Furkhan Dandia (23:22.741)
Yeah, I think for me, I’ll use another example. I started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at the beginning of this year and, you know, I consider myself in pretty good shape. So I was like, okay, this should be all right. And man, was it ever humbling. And it’s still humbling six months in. And I still feel like I haven’t made any progress when I’m training or rolling with guys who are way above me in levels, but that’s what life is. And as I’m
on the mat trying to squirm my way out of a submission or whatever it is to avoid getting submitted. It often takes me back to just how I experience life. You know, we want to be able to just get things right immediately, right? Just like I wanted to go into the gym and get past the white belt immediately and force it, right? But that’s not what it is. I’ve had to put in the time and the effort and
Most days I walk out feeling like I haven’t made any progress, but I feel good for the workout and how I was able to push myself and my body feels good. And if there’s just all the endorphins there and that’s what life has taught me as I’m going through the difficult experiences. Yes, it sucks while I’m in them. It feels like that submission hold coming on and I’m going to have to tap out, but I don’t and
When I come out of it, I’m like, look at me now. I’ve grown so much from this. I’ve learned so much and I’m proud of the individual I’m becoming through this opportunity. And the fact that I was able to stay with it and be persistent. Yes, I could have folded and walked away and said, this is too hard. I can’t do this right now. And sometimes
That is the case, right? You may not be ready for that challenge and you have to be honest with yourself. There’s a lot of things I’ve had to walk away from just because I wasn’t ready to take it on. But for the most part, sticking with it and working through it as much as, you know, again, we would like to avoid the pain. But I’ve also come to realize pain is the only real thing. And that’s how we know we’re alive. So.
Nick McGowan (25:30.881)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (25:36.917)
Yeah, I like to use that jiu -jitsu example because that’s how I equate it to life now. And, and while you’re in it, it is like a chess match, right? I didn’t appreciate how much mental focus goes into this combat sport. And you’re constantly there, someone’s coming at you and they’re bringing something in and you’re having to think about not only the move in front of you, but the move after. And sometimes the move in front of you fails. So you have to pivot.
Nick McGowan (25:40.513)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (26:06.869)
And that’s again, you know, you go into life, you’re like, I want to do go on this career path and I want to make this much money. And then you find out that maybe you’re not good at it and maybe you need to learn other skills or maybe you need to pivot and. There’s nothing wrong with any of it. That’s the beauty of this life. It’s it’s a journey and we often get fixated on the destination.
Nick McGowan (26:16.897)
Hmm.
Nick McGowan (26:30.401)
Yeah, and that that destination will screw us up, you know, I remember people asking me years ago like well Do you know what your five or your ten or your 25 year plan is? I was like whatever the fuck bullshit I would come up with God’s gonna do something different and life is gonna shape me differently And I’m gonna see things vastly different like I couldn’t I couldn’t have told you five years ago even that this is where I would be I would have been divorced and in a new relationship and a
brand new business or different from what I was doing, way outside of what I was before and like, how the hell would you have figured that out? You know, there’s no way to be able to do that. You kind of have to, full pun intended here, roll with the punches in a sense, to be able to actually go through and see all those things. I’m glad that you brought back the opportunity thing because as you were talking through that, I have these visuals of you kind of working through and thinking like, well, shit, I’m gonna do this. he’s gonna do that. So now I guess I got to do something else. And that is life.
us being able to work through that, but stepping outside of the systemic pressures, the way that life tells us we should be, or people around us tell us we should be, and just going through the process of the journey and figuring out, well, this didn’t work or that didn’t work. And I thought it was interesting how you brought up, like, you may want to get in this career and then figure out, wow, that’s tough. And maybe I’m not suited for that. Some people also get the other side of that.
where they get into a career and they’re like, well, I’m great at this, but I hate it. I don’t feel fulfilled at all. I don’t feel like I’m able to do the things that I want to do. I’m just doing this thing. I’ve done some of that with sales and I was top of my game and all these different things and sold all these things, made money and fucking hated it. Because I realized that it wasn’t that that I was going after.
It was actually part of my journey of like the podcast, being able to have these conversations and being able to get deep to it. So when you have conversations, either with yourself in your groups or with your clients talking about where people are at, either they wanted to get into this thing and realize it was a lot more difficult or they got into this thing and they realized they were great, but they hated it. There are pieces to, I think the, the path that we’re on that tell us like, Hey, you’re close, but like,
Nick McGowan (28:55.296)
make a little bit of a shift, how do you work with people when they’re trying to make that little bit of a shift or when they’re unaware of it and they need to make that little bit of a shift?
Furkhan Dandia (28:59.061)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (29:06.613)
Yeah, I think it’s trial and error sometimes, but at the end of the day, I think often people will try to have regret and they’ll beat themselves up that, I shouldn’t have done this. And that’s where shame comes in, right? The shoulds, shooting ourselves is really the aspect of shame that’s coming to the forefront. And that’s where
Nick McGowan (29:17.536)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (29:28.725)
there needs to be a level of acceptance and being okay with wherever you are, right? And that’s tough. That takes a lot of time and effort. And again, I like to reflect on my own personal experience becoming an engineer. Looking back.
yeah, I was really good at my job. I was great engineer, very detail oriented, and I did really well in school and did really well in my career, but it wasn’t fulfilling. It wasn’t serving the purpose I felt like I needed to serve or what I was.
Nick McGowan (29:54.079)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (30:02.005)
put on this earth to do. And that came to the forefront when I became a father and I started questioning, okay, what am I doing for this world so my son can grow up in it? And that’s where the whole idea of purpose came to the forefront for me. Am I doing things that are meaningful? Now, when it comes to other people, I try to use that same approach as trying to identify what’s your purpose in life. And that evolves too over time as you grow older, your values change.
or they evolve too, but your purpose can change. Ten years from now, I might be doing something different, but it’s trying to tie back whatever you want in life, especially if you’re looking for something fulfilling, identifying, okay, does this align with my gifts, these inherent gifts that we have? And I think we all have a unique set of skills and gifts that we can bring to the table.
Nick McGowan (30:37.343)
Yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (30:57.365)
and add value. Now that’s part of the challenge for many people is identifying those things. But when you’re starting to connect things to your purpose, that’s where that fulfillment comes in. And that takes time, right? For a lot of people, they don’t know what that is. They will move from one thing to the other. But it requires that persistence. And if you truly believe in it, I think, again, people get stuck on the immediate results.
Nick McGowan (31:01.823)
Mm.
Nick McGowan (31:10.303)
Yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (31:25.557)
And I was reading something this morning too where, and this is, I mean, well known, but often we only…
What we see out there is the results, the success. We don’t see the hustle and the grind that goes on in the background. And because of the world we live in where we are so digitally connected to everyone, including our idols or the celebrities we look up to, we only see the surface level success they’ve achieved and how well they’re doing. We don’t know what they were doing in the background, how hard they were working. And that kind of gives a false sense.
Nick McGowan (31:33.599)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (32:00.117)
to people or this delusion that, I want to be like this person. I want the same success, but I don’t want to do the work for it. Right. Because again, you don’t see the hours that are being put in the background. Right. And again, coming back to athletes, it’s the same idea, right? If you’re going to make a play on the ice or on the court, you don’t know how many times he’s practiced that play or how many hours he spent in the gym, making sure he gets it right. So
Nick McGowan (32:12.062)
Yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (32:29.397)
We just see the end product and we’re like, yeah, I want to make that play too.
Nick McGowan (32:33.494)
I think of Steph Curry. He makes these wild like 400 yard shots, like over his back, not thinking about it, but we don’t see that he’s been working on that since his dad was in the league and he was a toddler and just working through all these things. And as you were talking about that, I think about how there are a lot of people that will have as an influencer, they’ll have somebody following around, having cameras on them and all that stuff, but they’re still editing that stuff.
Furkhan Dandia (32:37.621)
Yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (32:47.989)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick McGowan (33:03.262)
Like they’re not giving you all of the pieces. You don’t need to see every single piece. People need their personal life. But we do need to understand. And that’s where I look at the platform like this podcast and like yours, being able to actually have these deep conversations and talk about and share those things to be able to actually get somebody else thinking about that stuff and not just going like, they must be super successful and life must have been super easy for them. You have no fucking idea. Like, no, not at all.
Furkhan Dandia (33:31.925)
Yeah.
Nick McGowan (33:32.765)
And there are daily struggles. There are moment struggles and things that we need to work through. And it can be really difficult to be able to separate from that because of the technology that we’re in. I mentioned that I’m not active on social media. I used to own a social media marketing company years ago, but that was when I thought it was helpful. And at this point it’s not. There are times I’ll hop onto like Facebook to sell something out of our garage or sell, you know, music.
Furkhan Dandia (33:55.701)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (34:01.278)
piece of equipment or something like that. And you instantly see the feed where people are just talking to all this shit. Basically there are some good things. Yes. There’s some really, really bad things. Yes. But then there was also a lot of, like you said, you only see what these people want you to see. And I watched something, last night I was honestly just vegging out, spend a little bit of time to just decompress from the day and had some TV show on and
I watched this one person say to the other person in the show in the context of the show doesn’t really matter, but they were like, I’m doing this for you and I’m doing this thing and this thing. And the guy was like, well, I want to ask you one other thing. Can you do this and have it done by tomorrow? And they were like, yes, I can. And these things were monstrous, monstrous projects. And I remember thinking we’re just going to go to commercial and then come back and here they are. And that’s exactly what happened. And I started cracking up. I was like, this isn’t this isn’t real.
Furkhan Dandia (34:53.749)
Yeah.
Nick McGowan (34:58.109)
None of it’s right. Like this is bullshit. This person couldn’t have done all these things. And what did it look like to be able to go through that? And like you said, talking through things, also deep process work needs to happen through all of that. And I think it’s an interesting topic to be able to really explore the macro version of life. But how do you handle those conversations with people when they share the frustrations that they’re not able to really share outside of the walls of, you know,
Furkhan Dandia (34:59.925)
Yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (35:20.245)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (35:27.485)
having that therapist relationship with them.
Furkhan Dandia (35:33.717)
So you mean like when they’re sharing with me as a therapist, like their frustrations?
Nick McGowan (35:37.085)
Yeah, when they’re talking to you about the frustrations and things that are going on and they’re not able to share those anywhere else, how do you facilitate that healing for them while also letting them actually get it off their chest and get it out there?
Furkhan Dandia (35:45.333)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (35:51.957)
Yeah, yeah, so I mean, I really appreciate a lot of work Carl Rogers did, and I’ll tie the two together, but his focus was really on unconditional positive regard. So he also had a bit of a church background. I think it’s very interesting from the
I’m not Catholic by any means, but there’s that whole notion of the confession, right? And when people are able to confess, they feel that load come off their chest, right? And I almost see the therapeutic practice in a similar way that I’m a sounding board and this individual has a lot that they are trying to get off their chest. And majority of the times we all as humans want to be seen, heard and understood. And when these individuals are
coming and talking to me, am I hearing them? And that’s why…
doing the podcast has really helped me in that space too, where I can sit there and really pay attention to what they’re saying and mirror back to them through body language or in my words in terms of paraphrasing what I’ve heard them say. And sometimes just saying it in different words, they’re like, yeah, yeah, you’re right. That’s exactly what I mean. It’s like, okay, or helping them frame it together and put it all together, build that story, that helps as well because now,
Nick McGowan (37:04.413)
the
Furkhan Dandia (37:17.749)
They feel like they’re being seen, they’re being heard, they’re being understood. And majority of the times, because people have relationships that are potentially rocky, maybe they don’t have friendships where they can have these conversations, or maybe people experience shame about being fully vulnerable with others in their lives, or sometimes they don’t even know how to express it. When you factor all those things in and they’re able to sit in a…
room with the therapist and have those conversations, that just makes things so much easier for them. And I know for me, for the longest time, that was it too, where you start thinking, you know, you’re crazy in your mind that, I can’t believe I’m having these thoughts or these ideas or these feelings or these wishes. And then you start talking to the therapist and she just, you know, in my case, it was a woman and she just understood.
Nick McGowan (38:10.173)
Yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (38:11.317)
what I meant and guided me and helped me think through things differently. And sometimes you need that shift in perspective. And that’s where a form of therapy like cognitive behavioral therapy is so useful because you can reframe things and see them from a different perspective. And that’s the other role is often I will delicately challenge clients. Now, again, I have to be
mindful and have the awareness meeting them where they are if they’re open to the feedback and the challenge, asking them, okay, well, you know, if your wife is saying this, have you thought about it from her perspective? Put yourself in her shoes. And then, you know, you can see it, their eyes widen, it’s like, okay, aha, moment happens, like, yes, I didn’t think of it that way. Or have you thought about it in this way that look how much
Nick McGowan (38:38.269)
Yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (39:01.365)
effort you’ve put into this and look how far you’ve come along and yet you’re still beating yourself up. And again, it’s that reassurance, right? So there’s many aspects to it. It’s making sure they feel understood, they feel heard, but then at the same time,
guiding them and perhaps helping them see a different perspective if they’re ready for that or open to it. And then also helping them identify their strengths to make sure they also recognize that sometimes you need that extra, I guess, nudge to know that you can do it. You can go out there and do it, look at all the strengths you have, and they need that identification sometimes.
Nick McGowan (39:33.181)
Mm -hmm.
Nick McGowan (39:42.813)
Sure. And I’m sure you’ve been in that spot where the therapist or within a group setting, somebody will say something and you’re like, shut up. Like even though that’s in the back of the mind, then there are other times where you go, yeah, you’re right. I haven’t even thought about it like that. Or I didn’t see it like that. Or I didn’t think about it or whatever. And it is a timing thing. There are pieces that go along with that where you may just not be at that stage yet or with that.
piece of it, so for you to be able to actually see it that way, I really appreciate that. To me, that’s a good sign of somebody that’s not just a therapist, but somebody that’s empathetic and deeply cares and is there to be able to help, not just, well, I know what the problem is, I know what the answer is, I know what the solution is, or, you know, engineer your way through it in a sense and just push it on them. That’s a beautiful thing. You’ve also really, you’ve brought up several times throughout this interview today about shame.
Furkhan Dandia (40:32.373)
Yeah.
Nick McGowan (40:39.901)
And how shame deeply transforms the way that we operate. And we don’t think right off the bat often. I’m, I’m kind of assuming here that most people don’t think that shame is a big factor of it until you get deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper. Even brought up, religion. and we haven’t talked about what sect of religion or what you look at. in some ways it doesn’t really matter because the creator and the source is
our creator and our source and that’s how we operate within that. But there’s a lot of systemic issues that I think come along with specifically religion. I was actually raised Catholic. I got the extra middle name, went through all the different sacraments, all that stuff. And I remember not wanting to go to church on a Sunday when I was in, I don’t know, like 10th or 11th grade or something. And my mom told me, I did my time. You need to do yours. I was like, what?
Furkhan Dandia (41:37.717)
Yeah.
Nick McGowan (41:37.789)
Well, now I absolutely don’t want to go. But the shame that came from if you don’t do these things, you’re automatically going here or this is automatically going to happen. And that’s just one system. There’s the family system. There’s the educational system. There are all these things that accumulate the shame that we feel inside. And sometimes it’s really difficult. And I’ll speak from my own perspective, even with all the healing work that I’ve done, it can be difficult to wade through it and finally go there.
So with the clients that you work with and with yourself, how do you help people get to the point where they can pinpoint that’s where the shame came from or at least be within the neighborhood or on the right street with it?
Furkhan Dandia (42:09.813)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (42:24.213)
Yeah, I think majority of the times and
I can relate to this myself, but we often get caught in the shame spiral. So we get warped in it. It’s the internal dialogue we have with ourselves. We just don’t think we’re worthy or good enough. And then we try to compensate to it, right? Sometimes we’ll fall into people -placing tendencies. Sometimes we’ll fall into perfectionism. Sometimes we’ll experience the anxiety of falling short. There’s many ways, and we’re just on this spiral trying to get away from it.
And until you don’t speak it out loud, you don’t put it out there, you’re going to try to run from it or escape from it. And some people fall into the substance abuse side or addictions. It’s all generated by shame. And I agree with you for me, too. A lot of it was cultural based on what my parents were saying. And then the way people had.
projected their own religion religious trauma onto me and how I had internalized, you know, that God’s gonna think I’m this bad person. And I think at the end of the day, part of it, when it comes to clients is again, what I said around them feeling seen, heard and understood that can help with shame because now they don’t feel like they need to.
run from it, they can accept it for what it is, because there’s this person who’s accepting them, right, unconditionally, that unconditional positive regard is huge. But then trying to start identifying it, right, you start putting the pieces together, where
Furkhan Dandia (44:04.917)
What are some of the internal dialogues you have? How do you beat yourself up? What are some of the things you tell yourself when things don’t work out? Majority of the time it’s around, I don’t feel good enough. Okay, well, where did this come up? How far can you go back in time?
Nick McGowan (44:16.061)
Hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (44:22.325)
and identify that. For me, I can go back to when I was six, when it first started coming to the surface, when I started making sense of things and some of the things my parents would say or do. Again, no judgment there. I’m a firm believer that things happen to us. But at the end of the day, it’s our responsibility to work through them as adults. So once you start identifying those things, you can start naming them and working through them.
That’s kind of my approach, it’s worked for me. And I think the biggest thing for me coming out of that religious trauma was recognizing that my relationship with God is my relationship with God. No one gets to have a say in it. And even now when people try to have an input, I’m like, this is none of your business, it’s between me and him, right? And also accepting that, and this is something,
Nick McGowan (45:02.071)
Mm -hmm
Furkhan Dandia (45:18.581)
A guest on my podcast reminded me and taught me is just remembering that I am loved. That’s it. It’s that simple. And that connection is solid. I’m good. So I don’t feel that shame anymore. When it does come bubbling up, I’m able to work through it. And that’s kind of my goal with clients, whether or not they believe in a higher power.
Nick McGowan (45:30.199)
Mm -hmm.
Furkhan Dandia (45:44.309)
It’s helping them identify that you are who you are, you’re accepted, and you’re the only person standing between that. Right. So you need to figure that out ultimately. And it’s not in those words, but it’s through guiding them and helping them identify that.
Nick McGowan (45:58.254)
Yeah, yeah, and there’s a deep trust that at some point may have been broken within us and then we don’t trust ourselves as much. And when we can trust ourselves and know like this is who I am, but that shame from being a little kid or whatever situation had happened where somebody said, well, how you are and who you are is not right and it’s wrong. And you internalize that and it became shame. And the shame, you brought up addiction. Shame is the Genesis and the catalyst to addiction.
Furkhan Dandia (46:06.037)
Yes.
Nick McGowan (46:26.904)
I actually read an incredible book last year that I plan on rereading several more times, Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw. Have you read that?
my God, I not only read the book but downloaded the audio and I’m going to go back and forth because there’s so much that’s in there where if you really, like once you see something, once you’re self aware and you know, like having a similar podcast, that’s one of the biggest things, it’s the self awareness. Because let’s be real with each other, if you’re not aware of something, how the fuck do you know it’s there? How can you do anything with it? But once you’re aware and you see it, then you can do and you can do more and.
Furkhan Dandia (46:38.709)
No, I’ve heard about it.
Furkhan Dandia (47:02.901)
Yeah.
Nick McGowan (47:07.799)
You then become more self -aware of it. But once you see that there’s shame that is seeping into so many different pieces, you can then separate yourself from it and you can do that work and you kind of work through that. Definitely a book that I would highly, highly, highly recommend, especially if this is one of the big things. Like I’ve noticed that sometimes some people will have kind of sections of life where it’s like, I need to work through my shame. I need to work through my trauma. I need to work through this.
And I feel part of that is divine, where we’re being led to work through those things and then you see how it all interacts and how it works together with each other. So, it’s been awesome having you on the show. I wanna kinda cumulate all this together. So what’s that piece of advice you’d give to somebody that’s on their path towards self mastery?
Furkhan Dandia (47:57.845)
Yeah, I think it’s building that foundation. I was having lunch with a friend earlier today and we talked about that. Once you have that foundation, then when things do come up, you’re able to work through it. And when we’re on that journey, right, whether, you know, we were talking about him drinking alcohol and then waking up the next day and you’re like, I made it.
shitty choice, but that’s okay. I can start. I’ve got the foundation. So for me, again, everyone’s different. I encourage everyone to explore and experiment to find what that foundation is. For me, it’s waking up early, doing my prayers, making sure I’m doing some sort of meditation and reading.
and setting an intention for the day. That’s my foundation. And that’s allowed me to identify some of the things that I may be carrying from days or weeks leading up to that day, making sure I’m starting my day with humility and, you know.
in prayer, that’s huge for me, and reminding myself that I’m still human, I’m flawed, I’m fragile, and I don’t control anything except how I show up. And the meditation allows me to contemplate around, okay, what’s going on, connecting with my body and my mind, and then setting the intention of being the best I can be that day, recognizing things will come up, and I can recalibrate when I do miss the mark..
Furkhan Dandia (49:27.349)
That has been significant for me and has allowed me to continue to improve myself because I have those moments of reflection where I’m able to identify where I fell short. And the beauty of it is I’m given another day to make it up or get it right. And if I don’t, I’ll keep trying. But as long as I know I’m trying, then I’m okay when I don’t get that next day, right? At least I’m going and leaving in a good place. So that would be my recommendation.
to anyone is building that solid foundation, whatever works for you, but sticking with it because you may not see the results like we talked about immediately, but over time, all of that stuff starts accumulating and it becomes exponential.
Nick McGowan (50:13.813)
Great way to put that and especially for that to work for you. And I appreciate you pointed out for me, this out worked for me. This is what works for me because there’s context in here of how our energetics are, how we as people are, our personalities, the environment, all these different things and kind of trial and error figuring out what works but sticking with it a bit of time and still having grace with yourself to be able to say, I didn’t do as great as I wanted to today and that’s fine.
Tomorrow I’ll do that and being able to just look at each day the way that it needs to be just for you and how it’s going to be, because life’s gonna give us the way it’s gonna be. It’s not like we can say, well, I’m gonna force it to be any sort of way, but we do get to hold ourselves accountable and be like that. So I really appreciate you being on today. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you?
Furkhan Dandia (50:59.061)
Yeah.
Furkhan Dandia (51:05.685)
Absolutely.
Furkhan Dandia (51:12.117)
Yeah, I mean, as much as we were talking about social media, that’s probably the easiest way to find me. My Instagram handle is unoyazen. It’s E -U -N -O -I -A -Z -E -N. But, you know, I’m very similar to yourself. I’m trying to step away from social media as much as it’s possible.
But in the podcasting world, sometimes it can be tough. So I also encourage people to check out the podcast. It’s the easy conversations. So that’s easy as an EZ conversations and it’s available on all platforms. But Nick, again, thank you for having me on and letting me share my story and talk. It’s always an honor to be on other people’s podcasts and talk. So I appreciate that very much.
Nick McGowan (51:59.924)
Yeah, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you so much for being on today.
https://youtu.be/G-KjkJ4PoRo
