The NonProphet Podcast

Mark sits with Bill McConnell to discuss, well, everything, starting with a quick exchange about the benefits of voluntary discomfort, moving into pre-Clovis arrowheads and onto evolving out of a wrestling mentality with regards to fitness into an appreciation of training for specific goals. In this case, for Bill, fitness supports his journey as a primitive survivalist, a condition that cannot be accurately pursued in a Globo-Gym. And that's the last time we talk about fitness because Bill's knowledge, experience and skills in the context of primitive survival trump just about any other topic we might discuss.

By way of an introduction Bill humorously describes his drive to be "more than an Amway salesman for the bow drill." He talks about harvesting a bear with a stone point arrow and a "stick from the woods", homemade bow, homemade shaft, flint-napped arrowhead, and also about blowing 15-20 stalks in order to get close enough—15 yards—to an extremely sensitive antelope to shoot it with a primitive bow. Bill describes his path of experimental archeology (replicating old tools and using them in the real world) where he is in the real world, seeing artifacts and organic material, and being familiar enough with ancient cultures to imagine how the discovered and recovered artifact might have been used as a tool thousands of years ago. This is very different from scientific conclusions reached by researchers who have never been anything other than in 68 degrees and well-fed ...

His explanation of building, customizing and using the AtlAtl is remarkable. The difference between foreshaft and main shaft is clear to me as it never was before, and how a hunter can weaponize the tool—the foreshaft—according to the game being hunted, from fish to antelope to elk and larger game, made me understand why humans are still here and many species that primitive humans hunted are not.

"This is functioning art, the synthesis of art and science."

At 1hr 26min they talked about the VO2 Max of various animals and the primacy of the antelope so after the conversation Mark dug up his old chart:

Reinhold Messner (arguably the best high altitude climber ever)   48.8

Mark Twight                                    56.6

Alex Lowe (much better, faster, stronger climber than Twight)       69

Miguel Indurain (five-time TDF winner)                    71

Jim Ryun (1 miler world record in 1967)                   81

Steve Prefontaine (1 mile in 3:54)                        84.4

Bjorn Dahle (Olympic Gold Medals in several XC Ski distances)   93

Certain Dogs have VO2 Max of                        90-100

FunnyCide and other thoroughbreds are somewhere between    150-200

Pronghorn Antelope (the highest ever recorded)            300

We eventually land on the discussion of nutritional density and why people eating processed foods to fullness find themselves hungry a couple of hours later as the body inventories its intake and learns that the large meal lacked certain necessary nutrients. It's very different "when I harvest my own meat ... I don't have to eat as much of it because there is more nutrition within that food ..."

Finally, it is very important to think about environment and how our presence affects it, "When we leave things for the next generation so that they find it as you did they at least have the ability to make new mistakes or try new things out ... we haven't diminished the resources ... but that's not how we have move through our environment, we have altered it, exploited it, removed some potential for understanding and growth ... and that needs to change."

This is a reboot of Episode 20, recorded in 2018 with my dear friend, Brian Enos. He published a new book on July 17th, 2024 so I figured it would be a nice means of sharing some of the history of the NonProphet podcast (formerly known as The Dissect Podcast) and helping listeners understand why they might very well be interested in the new book titled, "Practical Living". You may learn a bit more about the book by surfing to the Journal section of the NonProphet site.

In the first mobile recording of the Dissect podcast, Mark sits down with friend and mentor, Brian Enos, to talk about shooting, Zen, temperament, road tripping, psychedelics and thinking about how to think. Brian is the author of “Practical Shooting — Beyond Fundamentals”. It is considered one of the best books on the subject, and certainly the deepest. During his career, he won multiple Area and National titles and despite this success—or maybe because of it—one day he quit cold turkey, which also comes up during the conversation.

Mark and Carl Kuschke discuss the preparation for an endurance event which was quite outside Carl's normal training focus and activity. He was recruited into a college tennis program but quickly realized going pro wasn't in his future so after graduating he entered the workforce and his training occurred mostly in the gym where he finally put on some muscle because the tennis training volume decreased. We discuss the concept of functional fitness, what functionality means, how to navigate the wilderness of fitness once the university coaching and programming are done, time limitations due to demands of family and work (10 hours per week, max), as well as the utility of online, remote programs. Often, the solution to a sense of stagnation in the gym is to break the routine, to choose an unusual objective and train differently for it. Mark concedes that obstacle course racing may actually be pretty fun, and Carl extolls the reassurance offered by a solid training plan, one that had him well enough prepared to actually enjoy himself on the day of the event. There are some details about the training itself, from VO2 intervals to grip work and the notorious Bulgarian Split Squat Test, and discussion of choosing an appropriate objective according to one's physical history, available time and innate curiosity. This isn't about a high end performance done by a famous athlete, rather it's a conversation that maybe lights the way for anyone to improve their fitness and enjoy the experience.

When I signed a copy of Extreme Alpinism for Pete in 1999 I wrote, "The moment of terror is the beginning of life. Be scared." I signed the book to a reputation—to hearsay—instead of signing it to the actual man. Years later, having become friends, he reminded me of the inscription. The phrase was my response to hearing a story of him bolting routes in Hyalite Canyon, sacrilege to me at the time; reducing risk to pursue purely technical difficulty and permanently altering the resource by chasing that grail. We had a good laugh 25 years after the fact ... we are both still alive to do so.

In the moment of our early encounters I couldn't see the similarities between us. I focused on the hot-button issue in my own philosophical pursuits so I missed what could have been an influential and powerful relationship.

What I couldn't see then was that Pete strove to connect with nature through adventure, exposing himself to great risk in exchange for the promise of great reward. That individual reward, when communicated and shared, becomes inspiration, becomes progression ... reinforcing the interconnectedness of the community, the climbers seeing and seeking and pushing limits out on the edge.

Now that we are on the backside of the arc, the offramp so to speak, and still alive to be wondering, "What now? What next?" we sat down for a conversation.

We spoke about the influence of music on climbing as an activity and attitude in that era, when there was a soundtrack to everything. The punk rock cry was "no future" and that might seem claustrophobic or oppressive but our interpretation of it was that, "If I have no future then I am utterly free to act in the present, to do what I want to do right now because I'm going to die anyway." But there was no map, no guideposts; we had to manufacture our own rites of passage into adulthood because the rites that were culturally common before no longer existed. Without a map, with only casual insight from brief exposure to mentors, we followed what we could, imitated what seemed appropriate, and struck out into a wild world where those who tried the hardest seems to live the shortest lives but we went there anyway. And somewhere out there we learned that fear is not a barrier, it's just good information.

Kelly Halpin is an artist, adventurer, and child of nature. Her love of the outdoors and running in the mountains is infectious. She recently sat down with Michael and Trevor Thompson to discuss her ultra exploits at the Running Up For Air event in SLC, UT — in which she won and set the female record. She also discusses her most recent challenge at The Barkley Marathons. She has incredible insight into what endurance can do for you when it is more than pinning a number or collecting FKTs. Her list of accomplishments in endurance sports is only overshadowed by her love of nature and her ability to translate that through her artwork.

You can find more about her at www.kellyhalpin.com or her Instagram: @kyehalpin

Mark sits down with Raymond Ansotegui to learn about sheep, cows, Basque culture and bullfighting (and there's not a red cape in sight). We discuss the philosophical side of moving energy and keeping the flow, the somatotypes and psychological make-up required by the job. These are farm boys, ranch kids, good athletes who understand the movement of the animal and also have a particular temperament; maybe not the guy being cheered but the guy being thanked for the protecting the guy being cheered. Raymond's experience as a bullfighter gives him a unique opportunity to dispel misconceptions about rodeo, and bull riding, in particular. There isn’t any actual “fighting” in western rodeo bullfighting, rather it is a dance of grit and grace involving extreme focus, humility and respect for the animals and the athletes.

Raymond describes some lessons from the arena — commit, slow down, get closer than you want to, and well, "it turns out that those same lessons applied to me helping my father live with Alzheimer's for the seven years before it took him."

Later, when we were speaking about storytelling (it's how we met), and he said, "If we can find sameness then we can explore difference because we can always find our way back," which is a beautiful and universal lesson. We also dive into the concept of facilitation and conflict resolution, mediation and collaboration, and eventually the notion of a bullfighter not actually fighting the bull but rather steering and guiding its attention, another concept that has near-universal application. 

Raymond was born and raised in Livingston, Montana, earned his undergraduate degree from Montana State University where his father was a professor of animal science for thirty years. After attending higher education at Arizona State University (Masters degree in land reclamation, and plant and soil science) and working at the Nevada Test Site, he returned to Montana.

"We learn to believe in ourselves, commit to our goals and when we get knocked down, to get back up again and again."

Michael and Kegan sit down to talk about physiology and the gulf that language builds between knowing and understanding. They go deep into new thoughts on strength training and how much of what we have done might of worked but is also wrong, “all models are wrong, some are useful.” They bring up relevant topics such as the disconnect between performing exercises versus establishing a training stimulus. They ask questions about the common cultural assumption that “bad” technique causes injury. They meet at an understanding that the body’s posture is an early pull to the grave because of how it affects a fundamental process like subconscious breathing can lead to an inability to control your state.

What can I say about Daniel Strauss other than I admire him. And it isn’t his accolades and successes in jiujitsu (though there are many) or is it his impressive physical strength, that should be studied. Nor is it his ability to think differently in such a homogenized world. It’s because of his curiosity and his zeal for living. He embodies a practice and insight that is rare these days. In October, I flew to Mallorca Spain to participate in a week-long BJJ festival. The level and sheer amount of practitioners and mastery were world-class, and out of them all, Daniel’s humble approach to teaching captured my attention and opened up the world of BJJ to what I think it can be. He is a master of his craft and yet, I know he is not done progressing. We covered the roots of grappling, and its function as the foundation for Western Civilization. We went into depth on environments (sites of power), the marketing of BJJ as a “little guy” sport that disconnected it from strength training, and what difficult tasks mean as value. I’m grateful for his time and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. 

Books Referenced:

How We Move  by Dr. Rob Gray

Teaching: A Subversive Activity by Neil Postman

Dinosaur Training by Brooks Kubik

Jack is a legend in the climbing world, a man I looked up to when I started climbing and still do today. His obsession with the Alaska Range produced first ascents of the Isis Face on Denali, the Diamond Arête on Mount Hunter, the Viper Ridge on Mount Foraker, and Mount Barille’s Cobra Pillar, he made the first ascent of the Elevator Shaft on Mount Johnson, the north face of Thunder Mountain, and several new routes on the Mount Huntington massif. Shifting attention to the Yukon, he made the first ascent of "Arctic Discipline" on the north face of Mount Kennedy with Jack Roberts. He has traveled all over the world to climb, making expeditions to Mount Siguniang (China), Everest, the Biafo Spires, Uzam Braak and the Ogre in Pakistan, as well as the Cordilleras Blanca and Huayhuash in Peru, and finally Kashmir, in India. 

He received the American Alpine Club’s coveted Underhill Award for climbing achievement (1999), the Italian Alpine Club award, “Genziana Giovanne” (1999), and the Sowles Award from the American Alpine Club. "conferred from time to time on mountaineers who have distinguished themselves, with unselfish devotion at personal risk or sacrifice of a major objective, in going to the assistance of fellow climbers imperiled in the mountains," in 2003.

We recorded this conversation in October of 2022 but because we had spoken for over three and a half hours I was reluctant to undertake the editing. I started editing just before his 70th birthday but that came and went before I could finish it.

The conversation started tentatively as we tried to find the entry point, discussing how and where we met (in 1986), the original carbon-fiber ice tool I'd been given by Grivel the year before that I then gave to Jack, which he returned to me in 2001, and that leads him the story of nearly being killed on the north face of Mount Augusta in 2002. The rescue that ensued is quite incredible—involving the US Air Force operating over the border in Canada—the details of which Jack shares in a very sobering and thoughtful way.

Augusta is in the St Elias range, which is twice as large as Switzerland, and the tallest peak, Mount Logan, is the largest massif (described as base circumference) that is above water in the world. On average 110 skiers and climbers visit the area annually (contrasted with 1200 on Denali) and 90% of those attempt Logan, so on any other peak in the range one is quite likely to be alone in one of the vastest wilderness regions on the planet.

Further along we discuss the importance of preserving climbing history and the American Alpine Club's work to record interviews and document events with the Legacy Series of short films. This leads to some talk about the resource itself—rock crags and cliffs as well as the higher peaks—and how our use permanently affects not simply the surfaces (heavily polished Italian limestone in Finale Ligura is one example) but also the surrounding environment. When Jack went to Everest in 1983 there had only been four prior American expeditions to that mountain and there were four US teams on Everest that very year, and the mountain had not yet been guided. Contrast that to 2021 when 145 people summited K2 in a single day and there likely had not been more than 100 climbers who had stood on top prior to that day; guiding, fixed ropes and camps, supplemental oxygen, and significant Sherpa support for the clients have all had a dramatic impact on the craft of climbing and upon the mountains themselves.

This tangent led us to a distinction between someone who wants to do the climbing and someone who wants to be regarded as a climber, and Jack is most certainly one of the former.

The Mount Augusta story.

The idea must be poisoned before the activity itself can become toxic. It is precisely the misunderstanding of what the term "fitness" means that leads many away from the true, original concept and towards the quick fix, the momentary, and ultimately, the detrimental. Michael and Kegan kick off by discussing the common practice of sacrificing health for wealth, and later trying to use the wealth to unfuck what was done to earn it. The youthful notion of invincibility makes all manner of physical damage acceptable if the result is wealth or notoriety but/and "athletic longevity" doesn't make sense to someone who can't yet define actual longevity for themselves. Once physical condition or performance begins to decline (through overuse, injury or simple aging) repeating what was done a decade or more prior can be very seductive but the training that got one to a peak won't reproduce that peak after one is moving down the back-slope of that peak; none of us are 20 years old any more. At some point it is important to know and understand when to quit ... without becoming a quitter.

Michael admits, "when I was younger I had to prove I wasn't lazy but as I get older I want to prove I'm not stupid. I know I don't avoid hard things, I've proven it to myself, which means it's time to learn how to take care of myself." He and Kegan observe that childhood/adolescent programming affects behavior decades later, and that maintaining a relationship with physical activity can stall or counter age-related cognitive decline; vigor in the body directly supports vitality in the mind. Understanding the true and real "how" of fitness has become more important in this era where everything has a hack or shortcut, and physical appearance often belies serious, underlying health issues.