The Octus Download

Everybody in this episode is playing with other people's money. Jason Sanjana and Kevin Eckhardt warm up with the Emmys (02:05), then get to LIV Golf (04:56), the Saudi Public Investment Fund's $5 billion swing at the PGA Tour, now in a New Jersey bankruptcy in front of friend of the pod Judge Michael Kaplan. TV money was about 5% of revenue, against as much as 67% at the PGA Tour. BC Partners is anchoring a $300 million plan to relaunch the league with the players as owners, and the real prize may be $5 billion in net operating losses (13:44). What neither host can figure out is why any golfer would take this deal (16:14).

Then it's Rich Dad Poor Dad (22:47). Robert Kiyosaki loves telling people he's $1.2 billion in debt, so Vanity Fair sent a reporter to his Arizona home to find out how the get rich guy got there. His actual share turns out to be a fraction of that. The better story is who paid for his first business, a Velcro wallet company (27:20). Hint, it wasn't the rich dad.

This week's unofficial sponsor is other people's money (32:54). Starting a rival golf league nobody asked for? Use a sovereign wealth fund's. Looking to spice up your marriage? Use other people's spouses. Which brings us to Culture Corner (34:17) and The Invite, with Olivia Wilde and Seth Rogen as a couple running on fumes who invite the loud upstairs neighbors, Penélope Cruz and Edward Norton, down for dinner. Kevin finds a plot hole the size of Jupiter (36:00) and producer Tanya weighs in on the moment Hawk turns out to be a Howard (40:52).

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 Hosted by Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt
Produced and Edited by Tanya Hubbard
A Production of The Octus Podcast Network

Jason Sanjana and Kevin Eckhardt open with a con artist who thirst trapped women out of $1.3 million by faking his way onto the San Francisco 49ers (02:46), a bit that nearly separated producer Tanya from ten grand. Then it is on to Brightline Florida (07:06), the only privately run inner city passenger railroad in the country, with ridership up double digits, EBITDA finally positive, and roughly $5.5 billion of debt that has been amended 19 times. The trains keep running. The company is probably filing Chapter 11 anyway. Meanwhile the All In podcast is holding it up as proof Florida can build.

The conversation turns north to Syracuse (15:24), Kevin's alma mater, which missed its enrollment target and borrowed $458 million for dorms after 25 years of treating full paying international students as a renewable resource. Octus built a database of 92 distressed private colleges. Syracuse was never on it. Until now.

Update Corner brings the Wachtell report on Kawhi Leonard and the Clippers, with David Zupkas, legal analyst at Octus, joining to break down the penalty and the fraudulent transfer fight (35:35). The show closes on Coyote vs Acme (44:42), a legal comedy that a corporation nearly buried for a tax write off. The metaphor escaped containment.

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Hosted by Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt
Guest: David Zubkis (Legal Analyst, Octus)
Produced and Edited by Tanya Hubbard
A Production of The Octus Podcast Network

• (00:05) - Cold open and compliance read

Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt  start with the latest twist in the  Kawhi Leonard investigation (03:17), digging into the reported endorsement deals, the NBA investigation into whether the Clippers used team sponsors to circumvent the salary cap, and the bankruptcy questions still hanging over Aspiration. They get into ESPN’s reporting that the NBA found no evidence Steve Ballmer funneled money to Kawhi through Clippers sponsors, and why the league’s pushback leaves plenty unresolved.

Then it’s Mark Walter (18:22), the billionaire behind the Dodgers, the Lakers deal, Chelsea and a much more complicated web of life insurance, private credit and related-party investments. Jason and Kevin break down why affiliated transactions matter, how Delaware Life’s reported affiliated investments jumped dramatically, and why the broader relationship between Walter’s sports empire, insurers and Guggenheim has regulators and lenders paying attention.

Before Culture Corner, the show picks up an extremely unofficial sponsor: Flock Cameras (32:25). Jason and Kevin take on the automated license-plate reader network, how searchable vehicle-location data can be used by police, the privacy and warrant questions around those searches, and Flock’s efforts to tighten controls after misuse concerns.

Finally, Culture Corner heads back into the Taylor Sheridan universe with Lioness Season 3 (34:40), where Jason and Kevin debate Russia, CIA conference-room exposition and whether Zoe Saldaña’s Joe might love her job just a little too much

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Hosted by Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt
Produced and Edited by Tanya Hubbard
A Production of The Octus Podcast Network

• (00:05) - Intro and cold open

The mailbag is officially open. Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt hand the episode over to listeners for the first-ever Octus Download mailbag, starting with Bankruptcy 101: (02:40) Does filing for bankruptcy mean a company is actually going out of business? (04:44) When billions of dollars of debt disappear, who actually loses that money? (07:15) What does “restructuring” really mean? And (10:41) why can’t a bankrupt company just sell everything it owns and pay everyone back?

Then things get more personal. At (13:47) Jason and Kevin pick the bankruptcy cases they’ll never forget, (17:47) choose the one case they’d use to explain bankruptcy to someone who knows absolutely nothing about finance, and (24:11) tackle the favorite bankruptcy of the year, wrong answers only.

At (27:53) the credit talk stops and Culture Mail opens, with TV takes, Emmy opinions, movie recommendations (35:03) Producer Tanya Mail puts the hosts on the spot about things cut from the show, rabbit holes they still want to go down and the takes they know will start an argument.

And then, (37:29) Hate Mail arrives. At (38:07) U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Michael Kaplan joins the fun with a message for Kevin, a concern about his future source material and one very specific job offer. Finally, at (41:36) Jason and Kevin close the first mailbag and invite listeners to send the next round of questions, complaints and bad takes to [email protected].

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Hosted by Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt
Produced and Edited by Tanya Hubbard
A Production of The Octus Podcast Network

• (00:06) - Cold open and the mailbag is live

Every retailer in America named Michael is either printing money or closing stores. Jason Sanjana and Kevin Eckhardt start with a tale of two Michaels (04:59). Michael Kors, the brand not the man, has quietly closed 139 stores in three years while sales dropped more than $860 million, caught in the collapsing middle where near luxury goes to die. Then the resurrection. Apollo bought Michaels, the craft chain, for $3.3 billion, watched the bonds trade at 34 cents, then refinanced the whole thing at par (11:33) after Joann and Party City conveniently burned down next door. There is a bankrupt balloon factory in here too.

From there (19:15), the bankruptcy boys return to the Kawhi Leonard beat. A $28 million endorsement for a green bank that went bust, a creditor list nobody was supposed to read, a 14 year federal sentence, and a frozen trade to Toronto. There is also a scrapped ad campaign so strange it deserves its own segment (27:43).

The show closes with a World Cup edition of Culture Corner (38:39). The final lands at MetLife on Sunday, and the American run was secretly a credit investing story. One text, one very large check, one Griffin (35:52). Producer Tanya road trips through AC refrigerant safety on the way out.

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Hosted by Jason Sanjana and Kevin Eckhardt
Produced and Edited by Tanya Hubbard
A Production of The Octus Podcast Network

Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt open on Sleep Number, the smart mattress maker that dialed itself into Chapter 11 (02:07). The stock dropped 70 percent, the equity is underwater, and strategic partner Travis Kelce bought his stake on the open market months before the filing. Kevin floats a theory about who actually buys these beds. The numbers tell a sadder story (04:02), and there is a Canadian buyer nobody saw coming (05:35).

From there (16:00), a summer camp empire. Simad Holdings ran 30 camps serving 20,000 kids a year, borrowed 195 million dollars from Israeli bond investors in December, and filed for Chapter 11 days after school let out. Jessica Steinhagen, Senior Director, Legal at Octus, joins (22:26) to explain the Jewish camp scene and answer the question every parent should ask. Whether solvency makes the list (25:02). Then the campers' embroidered trunks raise a genuine law school exam question (27:54).

Kevin takes us to Caracas (30:16) for Rodrigo Herrera, the 75 year old debt collector who works in a full devil costume and drives a flame painted 55 Chevy. The unofficial sponsor read lands (35:47) before Culture Corner (38:28) takes on Jon Hamm and 600 million dollars nobody wants to hold on Your Friends and Neighbors.

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Hosted by Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt
Guest: Jessica Steinhagen (Senior Director, Legal, Octus)
Produced and Edited by Tanya Hubbard
A Production of The Octus Podcast Network

Michael Gatto, partner at Silver Point Capital and adjunct professor at Columbia Business School and Fordham's Gabelli School of Business, joins at (02:12) to talk teaching, distressed investing, and how he went from a firm running $120 million to a $50 billion shop as its first non founder partner. He makes the case for hiring the gritty Fordham underdog over the Ivy pedigree, and explains why credit has always been a game for strivers. The timing is not subtle. BDCs are gating, First Brands had its disclosure statement denied with the US Trustee moving to convert to Chapter 7, and Jamie Dimon has been muttering about cockroaches. Gatto digs into what a credit analyst should actually learn from First Brands (19:43), what allocators should be asking direct lending managers (30:53), whether there is any fun left now that private credit went from the hottest asset class on the street to a beat down dog, and the O'Shea Center for Credit Analysis he founded at Fordham with Bob O'Shea.

The conversation turns to Caesars Entertainment (38:35), the largest casino company in the US with 53 properties across 18 states, and Fertitta Entertainment taking it private in a $17.6 billion all cash deal at a 49 percent premium. Kyle Owusu, Director of Credit Research at Octus, walks through it (39:37), the $11.9 billion of debt Fertitta is inheriting, the $569 million in interest the company pays every quarter, the change of control put bondholders were watching, and the go shop window that is still open. The real story sits in the digital business, which more than doubled EBITDA last year while the Strip slipped about 5 percent, and in the enterprise value math that runs from the 2008 Apollo and TPG buyout through the brutal 2015 bankruptcy to today.

Then Culture Corner (55:02) on Jack Ryan: Ghost War, the John Krasinski reboot that hit number one globally on Prime with Wendell Pierce and Michael Kelly back in the fold. The guys get into the TikTok theory that the whole thing was funded by Dubai tourism, the debate over the greatest Tom Clancy movie ever made with The Hunt for Red October as the benchmark, and why one host insists he was only resting his eyes.

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Hosted by Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt
Guest: Michael Gatto (Partner, Silver Point Capital)
Guest: Kyle Owusu (Director of Credit Research, Octus)
Produced and Edited by Tanya Hubbard
A Production of The Octus Podcast Network

Link to what we talked about:

The Credit Investor's Handbook: Leveraged Loans, High Yield Bonds, and Distressed Debt (Wiley Finance) Links - amzn.to/4vne6Oz 

What Can a Credit Analyst Learn from the Rise and Fall of First Brands - 

https://bit.ly/3SehLzy 

What Questions Should Allocators Ask When Evaluating Direct Lending Managers  - https://bit.ly/4enYRNO 

 
00:00:05 Cold open and the fine print
00:02:12 Michael Gatto on teaching and Silver Point
00:19:43 What a credit analyst learns from First Brands
00:30:53 What allocators should ask direct lending managers
00:38:35 Caesars goes private
00:39:37 Kyle Owusu on the Fertitta deal
00:55:02 Culture Corner and Jack Ryan Ghost War
01:03:25 Wrap and close

Some weeks the news is weird. This week it is weird, litigious, and somehow involves 420,000 uprooted peach trees.

Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt open with Ryan Cohen's unsolicited, non binding offer to acquire eBay for $125 a share in a cash and stock deal (04:16), a bid that valued the target at roughly $56 billion from a company with a $12 billion market cap. Cohen showed up on Squawk Box in a leather jacket (05:33), could not explain the math to Andrew Ross Sorkin, and watched the stock drop 10% in real time. Michael Burry sold his entire position the next day. eBay called the bid "neither credible nor attractive." The hosts disagree on whether Cohen is a visionary or a chaos agent, and the debate is genuinely good.

From there (14:30), the conversation moves to Del Monte Foods, a 130 plus year old company that filed Chapter 11 in July 2025 after an aggressive LME bought the company nine months. Asset sales closed in March 2026, with Fresh Del Monte, Pacific Coast Producers, and B&G Foods splitting the business for roughly $499 million combined. Judge Michael Kaplan's ruling on non pro rata DIP roll ups is the legal crux, and Kevin's conflicted feelings about it are some of the best radio on this episode. Also, 420,000 peach trees are being ripped out of California orchards. Producer Tanya called it a crisis, and she is not wrong.

The episode closes with the debut of the Clout Audit Tribunal (24:08), Neal Katyal's TED Talk, Harvey AI, and the Supreme Court bar's collective meltdown over a Burning Man photo (31:16), before landing on Your Friends and Neighbors Season 2 (38:42), Jon Hamm, James Marsden's Owen Ashe, a deer shot dead on a beach, and the show's running thesis that rich people behaving badly in expensive houses is one of TV's most reliable pleasures.

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• (00:00) - Cold open, host intro, and the fine print

Some companies die because the math was never going to work. Spirit, AMC, and fire truck pricing all make that case differently.

Jason Sanjana and Kevin Eckhardt open with an emergency segment on Spirit Airlines (02:31), which ceased all operations on May 2nd after 34 years, 17,000 jobs, and a wind-down that happened overnight. Kevin, who covered the case at Octus, walks through why the Twitter narrative blaming the Biden DOJ is missing about 90% of the actual story. The Trump administration floated a $500 million bailout, but when the DIP lenders said no, it evaporated. The hosts debate whether Spirit was ever going to survive, why the JetBlue merger is a red herring, and what the crowdfunding campaign to "buy Spirit" actually tells you about the internet. Then (19:03), Krishan Sutharshana, senior distressed debt analyst at Octus, joins to walk through AMC. The largest movie theater chain in the world has raised nearly $4 billion in equity since the pandemic and still cannot generate positive free cash flow. Krishan explains the LME, the $3 billion maturity wall, the streaming window compression, and why the box office needs to hit $10 billion before AMC breaks even.

From there (36:19), Kevin breaks down how private equity rolled up the fire truck market, with Rev Group sitting on $4.4 billion in unfilled orders while prices have risen 5x and used trucks jumped 62% in a year. The show closes with the debut of The Parent Trap (42:10), a new segment about the things you do for your parents.  Jason spent a long weekend helping his parents move out of the Pittsburgh house they lived in for 40 years. Kevin produced a photo of his father on the field alongside O.J. Simpson and Dan Marino, which raises more questions than it answers. And the show's first ever mystery write-in arrives: an orchid dispute at an assisted living facility from a listener who is definitely not anyone on the production team. The hosts took it extremely seriously and provided the full legal analysis it deserved.

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• (00:05) - Cold open and host intro

Private credit was supposed to be boring. This episode makes the case that boring just got complicated.

Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt open with a cruise recap and the $80 million law firm hire that broke the internet before bringing in Mark Fischer,, Head of Financial Research at Octus (08:17). He breaks down why private credit is facing its first genuine stress test. Not COVID, not rate hikes in isolation, but both cycles hitting at once: floating-rate loans repricing into a distressed environment, dividend coverage cracking, and BDC marks on the same asset sitting 40 points apart depending on who’s holding it. The conversation moves to redemption pressure (22:19), where Blue Owl’s Technology Income Fund absorbed repurchase requests on 40% of outstanding shares and could only honor 5%. Saba Capital has since launched a tender at a 33% discount. Mark stays diplomatic on whether the marks are wrong. The hosts are less diplomatic.

From there (31:27), the episode shifts to Friendly Franchisees Corporation, a 65-unit Carl’s Jr. operator in California that just filed for Chapter 11. Owner Harshad Dharod blamed AB 1228, the law that raised the fast food minimum wage to $20. A UC Berkeley study released this month found no net job losses and only minimal menu price increases. Jason and Kevin are unconvinced the law is the villain here.

Culture Corner (43:55) covers The Pitt, the HBO Max medical drama that actual ER doctors call the most realistic show they’ve ever seen. The hosts debate whether watching exhausted professionals make life-and-death decisions under institutional pressure hits a little too close to home for two former restructuring lawyers.

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Hosted by Jason Sanjana & Kevin Eckhardt

• (00:36) - Intro and Kirkland’s reported $80M lateral hire