Most leaders assume burnout comes from heavy workloads, unrealistic targets, or a lack of self-care.

But what if the real driver is something far more foundational — the way we relate to ourselves, our language, and even our sense of time?

Scott Herbst, founder of SixFlex Training & Consulting, offers a refreshing and deeply human take. 

He helps leaders see burnout not as a symptom of “too much to do,” but as a breakdown in integrity, alignment, and the stories we tell ourselves about work.

Listen in as he explains how language shapes our experience, why integrity has nothing to do with morality, and how leaders can rebuild clarity and presence before burnout ever takes hold.

In this conversation, Scott breaks down:

• Why we experience burnout when we treat ourselves like objects to manage.
• How language shapes reality—not just describes it.
• The question that gets past complaints to what you truly care about.
• Why teams drift and need ongoing realignment.
• How integrity gets hijacked by excuses and justifications.
• Why leaders must own their broken agreements first.
• What interview questions reveal real leadership capacity.
• How to define shared values without virtue signaling.

Ideas Worth Sharing:

• “One thing that I think leads to burnout is that there is a misunderstanding of what it is to be a human being.” - Scott Herbst
• “Your language is this weird behavior that shapes how you see the world, how you see other people, how you see yourself.” - Scott Herbst
• “Ask questions about where people have provided leadership. … ‘Tell me about a place where you weren't recognized as leadership.’ … ‘What was that like?’ And you'll start to see how they answer… how they see leadership.” - Scott Herbst

Resources mentioned:

• SixFlex Training
• The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. Kuhn
• Gödel, Escher, Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. Hofstadter
• The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck

About the Guest

Scott Herbst is the founder and president of SixFlex Training & Consulting, where he provides behaviorally based coaching and training in leadership and communication. Through his practical and research-informed approach, Scott helps individuals and teams uncover what truly matters, restore alignment, and communicate with clarity. Participants in his programs consistently report breakthrough results not only in their work, but across every area of life.

Connect with Scott: LinkedIn | SixFlex Training | Podcast

Connect with Holli: Website | Linkedin

When union whispers start circulating among your staff, most leaders panic. 

They tighten policies, hold mandatory meetings, or double down on compliance.

Phillip Wilson, president of the Labor Relations Institute and founder of Approachable Leadership, invites us to ask a better question: What broke before the whispers began?

With decades of labor relations expertise, Phil breaks down how the unions employees seek are almost always symptoms of leadership they don't trust. 

Listen in as he explains the power distance gap, the difference between compliant and committed teams, and why the best union avoidance strategy is building a workplace people never want to leave.

You'll discover how vulnerability, relationships, and the hero assumption change retention from the inside out.

In this conversation, Phil breaks down:

• The real reason employees start union conversations.
• How approachability reduces turnover intentions by 78%.
• Why employees still fear leaders who say, “My door is always open.”
• What young or untrained supervisors get wrong about leadership.
• Why leaders must stop promoting top performers without people skills.
• The difference between employee relations and employee relationships.
• How theory X mindsets create compliant teams, while “hero assumptions” create committed ones.

Ideas Worth Sharing:

• “If you view your leader as approachable, you have 78% lower turnover intention than someone who rates their leader as unapproachable.” - Phillip Wilson
• “No one wakes up thinking they're the villain of the story.” - Phillip Wilson
• “The way you don't have a union is by doing a good job of running your ship. And that's not just a union avoidance strategy. That's how you take great care of your guests. That's how you take great care of your team.” - Phillip Wilson

Resources mentioned:

• Traction by Gino Wickman
• Rocket Fuel by Gino Wickman & Mark C. Winters
• The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni
• The Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Stanier
• The Leader-Shift Playbook by Phillip Wilson
• All Books by Phillip Wilson
• EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System)

About the Guest

Phillip Wilson is the president of the Labor Relations Institute (LRI) and founder of Approachable Leadership. He is the author of multiple leadership books, including The Approachability Playbook, Left of Boom, and his newest release, The Leader-Shift Playbook. Phil has been featured in The New York Times, Forbes, MSNBC, and Fox Business, and has testified before Congress as an expert on labor relations and workplace transparency. Through his research-backed approach to closing the power distance gap, Phil has helped organizations across industries create cultures where employees feel valued, heard, and committed long before union organizing ever becomes a consideration.

Connect with Phillip: LinkedIn | LRI Consulting | Approachable Leadership

When turnover feels endless, most leaders look for quick fixes: bonuses, new policies, tighter oversight.

Dr. Heather McGee from Western Michigan University invites us to pause and ask better questions. What if the problem isn’t people, but the systems that shape their behavior?

In this episode, Dr. McGee brings her decades of experience in Organizational Behavior Management (OBM) to show how the same scientific rigor we use in clinical settings can impact the workplace.

Listen in to learn how data, reinforcement, and environmental design can create teams that prosper—and stay.

In this conversation, Heather breaks down:

• The myth that everyone on your team is motivated by passion for the field.
• Why desperate hiring and “rosy” job ads fuel the turnover loop.
• How to apply the employee life cycle lens.
• The difference between retraining and fixing broken training systems.
• How recognition, autonomy, and psychological safety outperform monetary rewards.
• The danger of reinforcing the wrong behaviors (and how to measure what truly matters).
• What it really means to “analyze contingencies” across the organization.

Ideas Worth Sharing:

• “Not everyone finds this kind of work because that's what they've always dreamed of doing. For many folks coming in, especially at the entry level, they're there because they need a job, and this is a job.” - Dr. Heather McGee
• “Rather than focusing on what's wrong with them that they're not coming to work, it's time to start looking at what's wrong with the work environment that we're asking them to come to that is leading to people saying, ‘I can't do it today.’” - Dr. Heather McGee
• “If you train them once and they now need retraining, what's wrong with your training?” - Dr. Heather McGee

Resources mentioned:

• Book: Improving Performance: How to Manage the White Space on the Organizational Chart by Geary A. Rummler and Alan P. Brache
• OBM Network
• Western Michigan University OBM Program

About the Guest

Dr. Heather McGee is a Professor of Psychology and Chair of the Industrial/Organizational Behavior Management graduate programs at Western Michigan University. A leader in Organizational Behavior Management, she’s consulted across industries—from autism services to healthcare—helping organizations strengthen performance systems and workplace culture. Dr. McGee is the former Executive Director of the OBM Network, an associate editor for the Journal of Organizational Behavior Management, and serves on the boards of ALULA and Intermountain Centers for Human Development.

Connect with Holli:

Website: ⁠https://abacaresstaffing.com

LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/hollibeth⁠

Connect with Heather:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-mcgee-8482b46

If today’s conversation sparked ideas for how to fix your own people systems, don’t stop here. Follow The People Contingency wherever you listen. And if 

High turnover is one of the biggest headaches for leaders, especially when working with a young workforce entering their very first jobs. Most businesses try to fix the problem with incentives, strict policies, or constant hiring cycles. But what if the solution is simpler… and more human?

In this episode, Chris Deferio, founder of Keys to the Shop and renowned voice in the coffee industry, shares why building people-first systems is the secret to reducing burnout, creating strong teams, and fostering long-term retention. Chris and Holli dig into the mindset shifts leaders need to make, how to interview for values instead of buzzwords, and why being a manager is really about stewardship—not authority.

Listen in to hear Chris’s story of perseverance after a frightening personal experience and how his lessons from specialty coffee apply to every industry with frontline teams.

In this conversation, Chris breaks down:

• The biggest barriers young workers face when entering the workforce for the first time.
• Why clear systems and people-first leadership prevent overwhelm and turnover.
• How to interview for values instead of “culture fit” clichés.
• The difference between good feedback and destructive criticism.
• A powerful mindset shift for employees to succeed in their first job (and beyond).

Ideas Worth Sharing:

• “Systems as a form of care... when you're looking at a schedule, when you're looking at the SOPs, and all of the tools you have at your disposal—these are lifelines for staff to know what the expectations of them are at work, how to win.” - Chris Deferio
• “Until you are an asset to the business, you're kind of a liability... you should see that as 'Oh, I really have to honor their investment in me by adding value past the onboarding, past the training, taking this seriously.’” - Chris Deferio
• “Leaders automatically have weight in their presence that they can't actually tell is there as much, but everybody else can. So you have to be aware of that extra weight that you have or else what your intentions are might not come through the way you think.” - Chris Deferio

Resources mentioned:

• SHIFT BREAK! Better Than Bad is Not Good - Keys to the Shop
• Setting the Table: The Transforming Power of Hospitality in Business by Danny Meyer
• Key Holder Coaching Groups

About the Guest

Chris Deferio is a leader, educator, and podcast host with over 25 years in the specialty coffee industry. As the founder of Keys to the Shop, he helps coffee shop owners and managers build healthy coffee shop cultures. A three-time latte art champion and sought-after speaker, Chris has trained teams around the world on leadership, hospitality, and retention strategies that work far beyond the coffee bar.

Connect with Holli:

Website: https://abacaresstaffing.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hollibeth

Connect with Chris:

Website: ⁠

Most leaders say they’re drowning in meetings. The calendar is packed, the interruptions never stop, and the things they love about their work get buried under “urgent” noise. But what if the fix wasn’t another productivity hack, but rethinking the entire system around people?

In this episode, Dr. Nicholas Weatherly examines why so many “solutions” (like endless training) don’t actually solve performance problems and how coaching systems, not quick fixes, change the game.

Listen in as he gets candid about burnout, incentives, and why HR needs to get comfortable outside its comfort zone.

In this conversation, Nic breaks down:

• Why leaders default to “just train them”—and why it rarely solves the problem.
• How to give leaders their time back without sacrificing results.
• How to build a coaching system that survives beyond the “consultant of the month”.
• How to balance purpose and productivity when incentives are on the line.
• A quick diagnostic lens for performance problems (skill vs. environment).

Ideas Worth Sharing:

• “People do what they do because it works… And we know this because they keep doing it.” - Dr. Nicholas Weatherly
• “Just by doing something that sucks over and over again, it doesn't make it suck less—you just keep on repeating the cycle. But you can check that box and get it out of your hair.” - Dr. Nicholas Weatherly
• “If you're going to do one thing, you need to build a coaching system because people need individualized support. And coaching provides these quick, concise, frequent interactions that are necessary to shape behavior and help people find value in what's working and what's not.” - Dr. Nicholas Weatherly

Resources mentioned:

• Podcast episode: WTF ABA C.A.R.E.S Podcast with Dr. Nicholas Weatherly
• Holli Beth's LinkedIn Poll
• Performance Management by Aubrey Daniels
• Bringing Out the Best in People by Aubrey Daniels
• Dr John Austin - Performance Diagnostic Checklist
• SHRM - Qualifying Professional Development Credit Activities
• Deliberate Coaching by Nicholas Weatherly and Paul Gavoni
• Reaching Results
• Training for Impact by Dana Gaines Robinson and James C. Robinson
• Becoming Superman by J. Michael Straczynski

About the Guest

In this episode of the People Contingency Podcast, Holli Beth interviews Katrina Collier, who discusses her latest book, 'The Damage of Words,' and her journey of healing from childhood trauma. Katrina shares insights on the importance of inner child work, the impact of trauma on professional relationships, and the need for vulnerability in the workplace. She emphasizes the significance of setting boundaries, understanding narcissism, and the role of management in fostering a supportive work environment. The conversation highlights the connection between emotional well-being and professional success, offering valuable advice for recruiters and organizations.

About Katrina

Katrina Collier helps organizations strengthen human connection and repair the collaboration gaps between recruiters and hiring managers that so often lead to clunky processes and a poor candidate experience. Through her workshops, she works directly with hiring managers and talent acquisition teams to quickly uncover the real barriers to successful hiring—and solve them.

A sought-after global keynote speaker, Katrina is also the author of The Robot-Proof Recruiter: A Survival Guide for Recruiting and Sourcing Professionals and Reboot Hiring: The Key to Managers and Leaders Saving Time, Money, and Hassle When Recruiting.

References Mentioned

• The Robot Proof Recruiter
• Reboot Hiring
• The Damage of Words
• MACE Method by Helen Amory
• Dr. Ramani Durvasula on Instagram

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In this conversation, Holli Beth and Jennifer McClure explore the evolving role of HR in organizations, emphasizing its importance beyond compliance to fostering culture and engagement. They discuss the significance of data in HR practices, the necessity of building a strong employer brand, and the risks associated with ignoring employee feedback. Jennifer shares her experiences in transforming company culture and the critical role of trust in HR practices, ultimately highlighting the need for curiosity and engagement in leadership.

About JenniferJennifer McClure is a keynote speaker and future of work strategist who empowers leaders and organizations to unleash their potential and accelerate results. As the CEO of Unbridled Talent and Chief Excitement Officer of DisruptHR, she blends decades of executive leadership experience with a passion for developing innovative, human-centered people strategies.

A sought-after global keynote speaker, Jennifer guides leaders in navigating the evolving world of work, emphasizing high-impact leadership and the creation of thriving, inclusive workplace cultures. Her insights stem from practical experience and a deep understanding of the challenges and opportunities facing organizations in today’s rapidly evolving business landscape.

Resources Mentioned

• 🔗 Jennifer McClure on LinkedIn
• 🔗 Jennifer McClure’s Website
• 🔗 DisruptHR
• 🎙️ Impact Makers Podcast
• 📸 Jennifer on Instagram

🔔 Like what you hear? Don’t forget to follow The People Contingency, leave a review, and share this episode with someone navigating the new world of work.

In this episode, Holli Beth sits down with Peter Cappelli to unpack the evolving realities of remote and hybrid work. They explore why office culture still matters, how mentorship and collaboration shift in distributed teams, and what’s at stake for early-career professionals. Cappelli shares evidence-based insights on supervision, hiring, and the hidden costs of poor management in today’s workplace.

About Peter

Peter Cappelli is the George W. Taylor Professor of Management at The Wharton School and Director of Wharton’s Center for Human Resources. He is also a Research Associate at the National Bureau of Economic Research, and has advised governments and global organizations on employment policy and workforce development.

Named one of the top 5 most influential management thinkers by HR Magazine and a top 50 influencer in aging by NPR, Cappelli brings decades of thought leadership to critical conversations about the future of work. His work is featured in The Wall Street Journal, HR Executive, and Harvard Business Review. His latest book, In Praise of the Office, examines the rise of remote work and what’s lost when we leave the office behind.

Resources Mentioned

• Peter Cappelli’s LinkedIn
• Peter Cappelli’s Wharton Faculty Page
• In Praise of the Office by Peter Cappelli (Wharton Publishing, 2025)

Like what you hear? Don’t forget to follow The People Contingency, leave a review, and share this episode with someone navigating the new world of work. 

In this episode, Angela Pointer delivers real talk on people-first leadership—sharing how intentional living shapes intentional leadership, and how aligning values with action builds trust, belonging, and real workplace culture.

About Angela 

Angela Pointer, MS, BSN, RN, is a seasoned healthcare talent acquisition strategist and former nurse with over 28 years of experience. As President of AP Solutions, she helps organizations build high-impact leadership teams through innovative recruitment, executive search, and workforce development. Angela’s expertise spans acute care, ambulatory, and PE-backed settings, with a passion for mentoring, personal growth, and empowering inclusive leadership. She brings strategic insight, behavioral psychology fluency, and authentic advocacy to every conversation on the future of leadership.

Resources Mentioned

🔗Angela Pointer's LinkedIn Profile 

🔗A.P. Solutions and Access to the Mastermind Program

🔗Black Nurse Collaborative

📚John C. Maxwell: "The 15 Invaluable Laws of Growth" 

📚Love + Work by Marcus Buckingham 

🔔 Like what you hear? Don’t forget to follow The People Contingency, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who leads with heart.