My guest today is the award winning author, screenwriter and poet Jenni Fagan. Jenni has written four novels, several poetry collections and been named Scottish novelist of the year. 

18 months ago Jenni and I met in a suitably spooky basement in Edinburgh’s old town to discuss her incredible, harrowing memoir about growing up in care, Ootlin.

An ootlin, according to Jenni, is ‘someone who creates their story without first seeking permission to do so’. And you’ll soon see why that couldn’t be more apt.

Then, life happened - publication of the book was delayed and the interview never ran. Scroll forward to a couple of weeks ago when Ootlin was longlisted for the Women’s Prize for Non-Fiction, and then won the Gordon Burn Prize. I decided to raid the archives and listen again. What I heard was a moving conversation about building a life when society dumped you on the scrapheap before birth. And then some. 

As you’ll hear Jenni and I spoke candidly about her childhood growing up in 29 different homes, how she somehow preserved the shining girl inside when life was only interested in snuffing her out, becoming Jenni with an i, the importance of cultural mothers, surfing her way through her 50s and her obsession with property renovation.

CONTENT WARNING: there is some tough stuff in here including reference to sexual abuse and suicidal ideation.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including Ootlin by Jenni Fagan and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

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My guest today is a Gen X legend and someone I’ve been a little bit obsessed with ever since I saw her star in the definitive (late) 80s movie, Say Anything. Ione Skye. There was a time when It seemed like if there was a hot young actor - John Cusack, River Phoenix, Keanu Reeves - she got to snog them on screen. (I know, shallow, much.)

Ione has spent her life in the centre of the Venn diagram of film, music and celebrity. The daughter of 60s superstar Donovan, she famously dated Red Hot Chilli Peppers’ Anthony Keidis finding herself both babysitter and breadwinner at just 16. She followed that with an ill-fated marriage to Beastie Boy Ad-Rock (Adam Horowitz).

But there is so much more to Ione than all those male name drops.

She has starred in some of the most significant movies of their generation. She has worked with the likes of Sofia Coppola, Chloe Sevigny, Lena Dunham and Madonna. She’s written children’s books, directed short films and is an accomplished painter. Not to mention podcaster. (She hosts the podcast Weirder Together with her partner, Ben Lee.)

Oh, and I do just have to say that as a child she only lived next door to the iconic writer Eve Babitz!

Anyway It all adds up to one fascinating tumultuous story. One she’s addressed extremely candidly in her new memoir, Say Everything. See what she did there?

Ione joined me from LA to talk about growing up in the 80s and 90s, being a nepo baby before nepo babies were a thing, having it all, losing it all and getting some of it back, what she’s learnt from her Gen Z daughters and finally coming into herself in her 50s.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including Say Everything by Ione Skye and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is a woman who knows better than most what it takes to adapt to life’s big shifts. Dame Denise Lewis is one of the UK’s best known athletes. She won gold in the heptathlon in Sydney Olympics in 2000 and bronze in Atlanta in 1996. She has won medals at the Commonwealth games, the European championships and World Championships.

After retiring from athletics in her early 30s she built a successful career as a BBC sports commentator. Oh, And had four kids. 

In 2023 she was made a Dame for her services to sport. Now 52, she is President of UK athletics and has written a book sharing everything she’s learnt, aptly named Adaptability, a guide to surviving and thriving in a world of competing demands. 

I met up with Denise to talk about self-reliance, independence and how growing up the only child of a single mum shaped her. The challenge of building a whole new identity in her 30s - and again in her 50s. Her secrets to adapting after a big life shift and How she learnt the vital skill of mansplaining. Plus menopause, ageing And why she loves being on the fifth floor of life.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including The Cancer Roadmap by Dr Liz O'Riordan and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is Dr Liz O’Riordan. Liz is what’s apparently known in the trade as a double doctor; a breast cancer surgeon with a PhD in molecular oncology. 

But more than that Liz is also both expert and patient. 

She received her first breast cancer diagnosis aged 40. Her second aged 43 and her third, just two years ago, at the age of 48.

Her experience of life on both sides of the cancer patient-doctor fence makes her uniquely qualified to talk about it. She now campaigns to inform and educate the breast cancer community and was recently presented with the ‘Future Dreams Humanitarian Award’ for services to the breast cancer community.

The co-author of The Complete Guide to Breast Cancer, Liz has now followed that up with A Cancer Roadmap. Not exactly bedtime reading, you might think, but I - who have been lucky enough to have only had a scare, but do have family and friends experiencing it - inhaled it. Not only is it fascinating but it’s incredibly easy to digest and sure to become a staple for anyone who’s remotely impacted.

Liz joined me for a full and frank conversation about the impact of getting diagnosed with breast cancer at 40, crossing the doctor-patient divide, infertility, menopause, losing her hair and her identity and how she’s adjusted to living life with cancer.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including The Cancer Roadmap by Dr Liz O'Riordan and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I first encountered today’s guest back when I was editor of Red magazine and - for some crazy reason - went to an Oprah convention in Atlanta.

I know right? I can literally hear everyone who knows me in real life laughing.

So, Yes! I went to Atlanta to see Oprah but really I went to see someone else - a woman who Oprah described as “one of the smartest women I know”. Martha Beck.

Martha is a Harvard trained sociologist and life coach who was Oprah’s no-nonsense agony aunt on O magazine for almost two decades. she has not one not two but three degrees, as you do. And is the author of ten bestselling non-fiction books, including Steering by Starlight which you might have heard Lindsay Nicholson raving about on a recent episode of The Shift.

(And it’s not just me, Lindsay and oprah, Martha is beloved by such self help luminaries as Elizabeth Gilbert and Glennon Doyle.) 

Her new book Beyond Anxiety could not be better timed!

Martha joined me from her home in Pennsylvania to give us all a mahoosive pep talk on how to manage our anxiety. We also discussed surviving the 3am panic spiral, why she only got a handle on her own anxiety at 60, being a late blooming lesbian and what she’s learnt from parenting at 20 and 60 - and frankly a whole lot more.

Listen to Martha's podcast with Rowan Morgan Bewildered and her solo podcast The Gathering Room.

 

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including Beyond Anxiety by Martha Beck and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is the novelist, journalist and critic Diana Evans.

Diana is the award-winning author of four novels 26a, The Wonder, Ordinary People and A House for Alice. She has been shortlisted for countless awards including the Women’s Prize and won the South Bank Sky Arts Award for Literature for Ordinary People. She has, as she puts it, been writing against invisibility her entire life. 

Before all that she was a dancer, with the Brighton-based African and Caribbean troupe Mashango, and then a journalist (she was arts and music editor of Pride magazine). Some of her best work is now published as I Want To Talk To You, a collection of essays in which she examines the personal and the political, interviews icons and looks at the realities of ageing and thwarted expectation.

Like many of you listening, Diana is also a woman caught in the middle aged sandwich of children and parents. She joined me from her home in south London to talk ageing, experience and expectation. We covered compulsive worrying, growing up in a house of seven women, the hazards of being a “doer”, the pain of turning 50 without her twin, how caring for a parent can be “bigger than childbirth” and why we no longer need an aesthetic licence in middle age.  

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including I Want To Talk To You by Diana Evans and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week's guest is the Emmy award-winning American journalist Kate Fagan.

Kate started out playing college basketball before making the move into sports journalism. She worked for the American cable channel ESPN (for brits, that’s THE sports channel in the US) and wrote the number 1 NYT bestseller, What Made Maddy Run. 

Then, just before she turned 40 and at the top of her professional game, Kate took a hard left. She stepped away from the career that made her famous, moved to Charleston and married her wife Kathryn Budig.

Now she’s written a novel The Three Lives of Cate Kay that pushes all the buttons. A dissection of success and ambition, and the true cost of living a lie, it was Reese Witherspoon’s first bookclub pick of the year. 

While Kate was on the Edinburgh leg of her book tour, she came to hang out in my flat and ply Sausage the cat with Dreamies (no cash has changed hands but he’s always open to a conversation!) 

While she was here we discussed the moment she was bitten by the ambition bug (and how she’s still struggling to shake it off), the lack of female sporting role models when she was a young athlete, coming out at 30 and The stories we tell ourself about what it means to be a successful human. We also chatted age dysmorphia, crossing the 40 threshold and the conversation she wishes she’d had with her mum. She also introduced me to the concept of TODs.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including The Three Lives of Cate Kay by Kate Fagan and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I was the very first person to interview Miranda July about All Fours this time last year. To say she was nervous about how it would be received was an understatement. "Will you have my back?" she asked me (and the rest of the female world) towards the end of our conversation. Yes, I said, yes we will. And how! Since then All Fours has taken the world by storm - women over 40 have a sex life, who knew?! So I've decided to replay this episode for everyone who's new to The Shift and new to midlife.

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Every so often you get the chance to interview someone whose work has fascinated you for, well, forever. And today is one of those days. 

Miranda July is an artist, performer, film maker and writer who has been doing it her own way since she was in her teens. She has made three films - The Future, Me and You and Everyone We Know and Kajillionaire, held countless exhibitions, written several books and won a bunch of awards. You get the picture.

Now 50, Miranda has turned her attention to midlife with her first novel in a decade. All Fours is a painful, poignant, hilarious and extremely hot exploration of what happens when “a curious, creative, sexually active woman reaches the midpoint of her life, goes off the oestrogen cliff and starts to question her direction?”

It is wholly unlike anything else I’ve read about this life stage. And is sure to change a few games.

Miranda joined me to talk about her own trip off the oestrogen cliff, reimagining relationships as we get older, conscious co-parenting and moving into the house in the backyard. We also discussed the menopause whisper network, outing herself as “no longer young”, getting out of the anxiety cul de sac and why ageing is “unexpectedly wild”.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including All Fours by Miranda July and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Emily Sandford. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today’s guest is someone I’ve wanted to get on The Shift for the longest time. You might know Ruby Wax as a successful comedian and presenter, one of the funniest women of her generation. Or you might know her as a mental health campaigner and best-selling author. One thing’s for sure, she has been using humour to make the rest of us feel better for decades.

Having suffered depression her whole life, Ruby had a breakdown after losing her job on the BBC in her 50s (hold that thought!). Determined not to “go down with the career ship” she took herself off to Oxford university where she got a masters degree in mindfulness based cognitive therapy, was subsequently awarded an OBE for services to mental health and has written several bestselling books about our brains - and hers. 

Then, last year, 12 years after her last bout of depression, she discovered she wasn’t actually as well as she thought she was… Cue the inspiration for a new book, and tour.

Ruby and I met in an office overlooking the Thames the day after a big birthday (which we will not be talking about!!) to discuss why depression is the wrong word for mental illness and the journeys to find meaning that saw her end up on a journey to a 6 week stay in a mental clinic.

We also talked about building a new emotional toolkit for the second half of your life, the secret to her 35 year marriage and why we need to stop talking ageing and start talking evolving. There’s also hair dye, mindfulness, a Carrie Fisher love-in, jewellery and toe nails. It’s all going on in this episode!

Falling Upward by Richard Rohr, the book Ruby talks about in this episode, is available here.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including I'm Not As Well As I Thought I Was by Ruby Wax and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including transcripts of the podcast, please consider joining The Shift community. Find out more at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Emily Sandford. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is the bestselling writer Dani Shapiro. Dani is best known for the memoirs that made her name. Startlingly honest works of self-investigation like Slow Motion, in which she examines the questionable decisions her younger self made (let’s face it, whose younger self didn’t?). And the book that catapulted her to the top of the bestseller lists, Inheritance. 

In Inheritance, Dani explored the impact of taking a DNA test - just for fun! - in her mid 50s only to discover that her beloved dad was not actually her biological father. That book led to the top 10 podcast, Family Secrets featuring guests who have uncovered life altering secrets.

It was unlocking those family secrets that enabled Dani to write her first novel in 15 years, Signal Fires, a bestseller since the day it was published in the states last year and praised by, my fave Jamie Lee Curtis, amongst others. It looks at what happens when one tragic mistake changes a whole family’s lives.

Dani joined me from the East coast of America to discuss how it feels to discover that you are your family’s secret, her allergy to Empty Nest Syndrome and why there should be a handbook for middle age. We talked about coming into your full potential at 60, "losing your looks" when you’ve been told they’re your currency and learning to count ordinary blessings.

Listen to Family Secrets here.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including Signal Fires by Dani Shapiro and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Emily Sandford. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices