My guest this week is the novelist Betsy Lerner. 

Now Betsy is here to talk about her critically acclaimed debut novel, Shred Sisters, which takes us from the 1970s to the 90s and tells us the story of two troubled sisters, Amy and Ollie. No less a legend than Patti Smith described it as “moving like a souped up pick up truck” - and who am I to argue with Patti, it does! I loved it.

Betsy only turned to fiction in her early sixties. Before that she had a prolific career in the publishing industry spanning thirty years as an editor and literary agent working on such classics as Prozac Nation, Autobiography of a Face and Just Kids.

But she hasn’t stopped there, Betsy has also built a large following on TikTok, where she shares passages from her diaries or the 'chronicles of disappointment, depression and loneliness' as she calls them, that she kept in her 20s when she was cycling through the highs and lows of bipolar disorder.

Betsy joined me to talk about sibling rivalry, ageing, heartbreak and the family secret that shaped her. We also discussed escaping the maternal mantle of judgement, her personal mission to destigmatise mental illness, disordered eating, gratitude and why she loves “her twenty somethings” on TikTok.

CW: bereavement, mental health, miscarriage.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including Shred Sisters by Betsy Lerner as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/ review/ follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on Bluesky @theothersambaker.bsky.social or instagram @theothersambaker or message me on substack The Shift with Sam Baker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week I’m delighted to welcome back to The Shift one of my most listened-to guests, Nicola Sturgeon.

When we last spoke, at the start of 2022, Nicola was First Minister of Scotland - the first woman to hold the role, the first woman in 600 years to be the keeper of the seal. And During her tenure, she was widely acknowledged to be one of the most impactful politicians of her generation.

During our last conversation, she spoke for the first time about how it felt to experience menopausal symptoms in the corridors of power. Her candour was one of the things that opened the floodgates of the menopause conversation.

But that was then. A year later she shocked the world by resigning from the role she had been working towards since she was 16, in an attempt to build a life outside politics and away from the public glare.

Now she’s written a book, Frankly, a personal and political memoir about her life in politics. And, like it’s title suggests, she’s tried not to pull any punches or side step any issues - personal or political.

Nicola came to hang out in my living room in Edinburgh to discuss the decision to leave (and why she can't see a man making the same call) and the impact of spending the next two years under a cloud of suspicion. We also discussed class, confidence, turning back the clock, the price of success for women, learning to drive at 53, and finally having the freedom to get a tattoo!

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including Frankly by Nicola Sturgeon as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/ review/ follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on Bluesky @theothersambaker.bsky.social or instagram @theothersambaker or message me on substack The Shift with Sam Baker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is the award-winning novelist Sarah Perry.

Sarah is the internationally bestselling author of four novels, but the one you will almost definitely heard of (and may well have watched) is The Essex Serpent. Published in 2016, it sold over half a million copies, and won both British Book of the Year and Waterstones book of the year before being made into an apple tv+ series starring Clare Danes and Tom Hiddleston (Sarah was an extra!). Sarah has also been nominated for the booker prize, the women’s prize for fiction and the costa novel award, amongst others.

Born and brought up in Essex, Sarah is chancellor of Essex University, where her latest novel Enlightenment is set. Enlightenment - a novel about the presence and absence of faith draws more directly on her own life than usual - because Sarah, as you may or not know grew up in a closed religious community.

I met Sarah at her publisher’s office in South London to talk about being brought up in the equivalent of 1860, leaving the church, and coming out of the womb as a 45 year old novelist! We also discussed the success that led to incurable illness, the surprisingly difficult transition from a woman who doesn’t have children to a woman who didn’t have children, premature menopause and why she doesn’t want to look like someone who hasn’t seen death.

Btw, I've made that sound really depressing - I promise it isn't!

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including I'm Mostly Here To Enjoy Myself as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/ review/ follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on Bluesky @theothersambaker.bsky.social or instagram @theothersambaker or message me on substack The Shift with Sam Baker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when the life you find yourself leading in midlife doesn’t tick all the supposed boxes?

That’s the situation today’s guest found herself in. Glynnis MacNicol was 46 - a woman of a so-called certain age who found herself living life without a roadmap when, in august 2021, after almost 18 months spent alone in lockdown, she picked herself up and packed herself off to Paris for a month of living, loving and, well, pleasure.

I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself is the story of that month - a month spent in search of friendship, food, community, contact and sex. Plenty of sex.

While she was at it Glynnis discovered that far from being, as she puts it, “past cultural appeal and expectation:, everything she’d been told about living life as a middle aged single woman was a lie.

Glynnis joined me to talk pleasure, confidence, agency, learning to enjoy your body in midlife, knowing what you want and asking for it, sex, cycling, The joy and freedom of living life without a narrative and why she’d rather have a piece of prime Manhattan real estate than a husband!

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including I'm Mostly Here To Enjoy Myself as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/ review/ follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on Bluesky @theothersambaker.bsky.social or instagram @theothersambaker or message me on substack The Shift with Sam Baker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Crime novels might not be the first thing that springs to mind when you hear the name Steph McGovern. Steph is an award-winning broadcaster who is currently co-host of The Rest Is Money podcast with Robert Peston. At the start of her career in journalism, Steph worked for BBC news behind the scenes (despite having been told that “people like you don’t work for the BBC”), before moving in front of the camera as the business reporter on BBC Breakfast. 

She went on to present her own show, Steph’s Packed Lunch and can often be seen on Have I Got News, amongst other places.

But apart from getting us more clued up about money, Steph has another passion: She is an obsessive crime reader who has now written one of her own Deadline, which takes us behind the scenes of a broadcaster thrown into a hostage situation live on air while a scandal waits to subsume Westminster. 

Steph joined me for a full-on free range chat. We talked money, motivation, fame, the power of being underestimated and what she learnt from interviewing Donald Trump. Plus the menopause learning curve, flooding the breakfast telly sofa live on air, being a two mum family and why you should never ever let them make you stay in your lane. 

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including Deadline by Steph McGovern as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on Bluesky @theothersambaker.bsky.social or instagram @theothersambaker or message me on substack The Shift with Sam Baker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The last of our archive episodes this time around is the cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Spent, Alison's new graphic novel-come-memoir, reminded me of the conversation we had back in 2021. Here it is...

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My guest this week is the cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Probably best known for the Bechdel test - a tongue in cheek method she came up with in the 80s for assessing gender bias in movies. She became a household name when Fun Home, her graphic novel/memoir about coming out and her father’s death, became a bestseller and was turned into an award-winning musical.

Her new autobiographical graphic novel, The Secret To Superhuman Strength is a funny-not funny exploration of her own search for inner and outer strength through the lens of 60 years of fitness fads.

Alison and I go on a “rambling stroll” through the six decades of her life as we chat about everything from tarot to very much not being a team player. Alison talks candidly about escaping self-consciousness, coming to terms with ageing, why men are scared of women who can do push ups and why she’s forever nine years old.

And together we come up with a Bechdel test for women over 40. Challenge you to come up with a movie that passes it.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠The Shift Bookshop on bookshop.org⁠⁠ including Spent and The Secret To Superhuman Strength and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠https://theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠.

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker. This episode was edited by Emily Sandford. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week we're going way back in The Shift archives, to one of the earliest episodes I recorded with novelist Esther Freud. This summer Esther will be a guest of The Shift bookclub, to talk about her new novel, My Sister and Other Lovers - her long-awaited sort-of-sequel to her smash hit autofiction, Hideous Kinky, about her childhood with her sister Bella Freud (who was on The Shift podcast last autumn - listen here). Here's the chat Esther and I had back in 2021...

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How does it feel to come from a family with a legend? If you’re today’s guest, novelist and playwright Esther Freud (daughter of painter Lucian Freud and great granddaughter of Sigmund Freud) you work with that legacy to produce some of the finest novels of the last thirty years. Her first Hideous Kinky, based on her unusual childhood, was made into a film starring Kate Winslet and after the follow-up, Peerless Flats, she was named one of Granta’s Best Young Novelists. Scroll forward a couple of decades and her ninth novel, I Couldn’t Love You More, comes full circle, this time exploring aspects of her family’s history through the lens of three generations of mothers. (Bring tissues!)

Over the next 40 minutes Esther talks candidly about motherhood, guilt, shame, the way women are constantly judged, her own entangled family history, how the onset of menopause made her question everything and why now 57 she’s happier than ever. 

CONTENT WARNING: There’s some conversation about forced adoption and Ireland’s mother and baby homes that some people may find upsetting.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠The Shift Bookshop on bookshop.org⁠ including I Couldn't Love You More and My Sister and Other Lovers and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠https://theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠.

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker. This episode was edited by Emily Sandford. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We're heading back to the archives for the next few weeks and first up here's one of my favourite episodes. With the desperately overdue publication of her brilliant diaries, How To End A Story, in the US and UK, the Australian novelist Helen Garner is finally, finally getting some of the credit she's due up here in the Northern hemisphere. Here's our chat...

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My guest today is the writer Helen Garner. I’m pretty sure that right now you are either going, wow I LOVE her, or looking a bit vague. Because despite being one of Australia’s greatest living writers she is surprisingly little known here.

But not for much longer because, at the age of 81, she is finally about to see almost all her books in print in the UK and US for the first time.

Born in 1941 in Geelong, Victoria, the eldest of six, Helen has lived a fascinating life and one that has found its way into her 13 books. Her debut Monkey Grip, published in 1977 when she was a single mother, is still in print today; her second novel, The Children’s Bach (which is where I recommend you start if you’ve never read her), has been compared with Hemingway and Fitzgerald; and, her true crime classic, This House of Grief, has been declared one of the best books of the 21st century.

Not bad for a regular kid from, as she puts it, “an ordinary Australian home - not many books and not much talk.”

I was lucky enough to get to chat to Helen (and her chooks) from her home near Melbourne. In fact she kept me up long past my bedtime (!) as we discussed the difficult father-daughter relationship, making peace with the older generations and the emotional impact of being a war baby. She also told me why getting married a fourth time would have been the definition of madness, how she couldn’t give a monkeys about the withdrawal of the erotic gaze and why grandmothering has been the greatest pleasure of her life. 

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift Bookshop on bookshop.org including How To End A Story, Monkey Grip, The Children's Bach and This House of Grief by Helen Garner and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at https://theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com.

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls @ Pineapple Audio Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is the journalist Molly Jong Fast. The author of four books, Molly started writing about politics in 2016. She’s now a special correspondent for Vanity Fair, a political analyst for MSNBC News and host of the Fast Politics Podcast.

But she is also the daughter of the novelist Erica Jong, who in the 1970s wrote a novel that became synonymous with the sexual revolution. Fear of Flying, featuring Jong’s alter ego Isadora Wing, sold 20 million copies and coined the phrase the zipless fuck.

Molly was born into a world of fame and celebrity. As she puts it she grew up with her mother everywhere - on television, the answer to a question in games shows, in the newspaper. But rarely at home. Now Molly has written How To Lose Your Mother, a daughter’s memoir about middle age and losing your mother to dementia when actually you never had her. It’s funny candid, gossipy, entertaining a story of love, frustration and, occasionally, despair.

Molly joined me from New York to talk about how she survived when everyone started dying around her, ageing without a guidebook, how algorithms shape misogyny, why you can never escape being a nepo baby, being a bad daughter, why it’s ok to lie to your kids and only learning she could be right about things in her 40s.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including How to lose your mother by Molly Jong Fast as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a really special episode and one I’m honoured to be trusted with.

Because my guest today is Jo Hamilton, one of more than 700 British sub postmasters who was prosecuted between 2000 and 2014 by the Post Office.

Falsely accused of stealing £36,000 Jo was ordered to put right a wrong she hadn’t committed, forced to remortgage her house and borrow from anyone she could in order to repay money that she had never taken. But it wasn’t just money. Jo lost so much more. Her confidence, her trust, her reputation, and ultimately, she believes, her parents.

Last year, Jo was immortalised by Monica Dolan who played her in the 

Groundbreaking TV drama, Mr Bates v The Post Office. 

It was a drama that achieved what only the very best TV can - it put the plight of the sub postmasters at the heart of every conversation - on TV, in the papers, on line, at the bus stop, by the coffee machine. Suddenly Everyone was talking about it.

Now her conviction overturned and her debts paid off, Jo has written Why Are You Here Mrs Hamilton? It’s an extraordinary first hand account of how she built a local shop and post office which became the heart of her community and how it was stolen from her.

Jo joined me to talk candidly about the life upending experience and how the last twenty years have changed her. From an ordinary woman who loved people and horses to a ferocious campaigner who will not stop fighting until every last sub postmaster is paid.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including Why Are You Here Mrs Hamilton? as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices