The Tragically Hip Top Forty Countdown: Song Thirty-Two — Hawksley from Huntsville

Hey, it’s jD, and this week, I’m joined by a national treasure. No, not the kind with a scroll in his sock and a clue tattooed under UV light — I mean an actual Canadian cultural force: Hawksley Workman from Huntsville.

Yep, that Hawksley. The one who’s built a wild, genre-hopping career that somehow manages to be both absurd and earnest — like a moose in a tuxedo who sings about heartbreak and moonlight. He’s here, in the countdown, and he’s bringing Phantom Power-era fire with him.

We go deep into Hawksley’s Hipstory — from learning to play Blow at High Dough in a high school cover band before ever hearing the original, to getting re-baptized by Phantom Power during his early days in Toronto. We talk about the Hip’s legacy, Gord’s democratic genius, and the molten centre of emotion that lies just beneath the surface of so many of their tracks.

Hawksley shares stories from backstage hangs to beer-branded Canada Day gigs, from dinner-table Gord Downie wisdom to the weirdness of watching media build you up just to tear you down. There’s laughter, reverence, and a few F-bombs — all in tribute to a band that gave Canadian poetry a place in our basements, stadiums, and snow-covered backyards.

And yeah — you better believe we talk about the song of the week. Just not by name. (Rules are rules.)

🎙️ Next week: We roll into L.A. with Tracey, who now listens to Wheat Kings on the 405. She’s got West Coast Hip energy and a knack for turning nostalgia into sharp insights. Don’t miss it.

💬 Pull Quote

“I didn’t hear the album version of Blow at High Dough until after I’d already played it live in a cover band. And when I finally heard it? It was perfect. Everything just made sense.”

👤 About Our Guest

Hawksley Workman is a JUNO-winning singer, songwriter, producer, and all-around creative tornado. Known for his theatrical live shows and fearless genre-bending, he’s released over 15 albums and toured internationally, all while flying the flag for Canadiana. He’s got a soft spot for Phantom Power, absurd lyrics, and a good glass of milk at the end of the day.

Find his music wherever good weirdness lives — and check out his single Save My Life, which dropped earlier this year and feels like a psychedelic hug from an electric moose.

📬 Get Involved

🎙️ Drop your hot take: castfeedback.com/tthtop40

📧 Send yer Hipstory: [email protected]

💸 Join the membersHIP & support the cause: buymeacoffee.com/tthtop40

📡 Follow + Stream

Spotify | Apple | YouTube | dewvre.com/tthtop40

Instagram: @tthtop40

Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/tthtop40

💸 Support ALS Canada

We’re raising $25,000 in honour of Matt Rona — a fan, a friend, and a force. Every donation supports the ALS Society of Canada and keeps the spirit of community alive. Chip in if you can: buymeacoffee.com/tthtop40

📜 Transcript Follows Below

The Tragically Hip Top 40 Countdown

2025-05-23, 6:05 PM

The Tragically Hip Top 40 Countdown

Join jD beginning Monday, January 6th, 2025 while he counts down the top 40 songs by The

Tragically Hip as voted by you! Every week on The Tragically Hip Top 40 Countdown, jD

welcomes a new guest to discuss their TTH origin story (hipstory) and dissect,

Artist: jD

Year: 2025

Transcript

[0:00] On Friday, May 26th, Podlist 6 is coming to you from the Tragically Hip Top 40 Countdown.

Hey, it's JD here, and I am fucking pumped to be filling you in on the latest Podlist. What is a

Podlist, you ask? It's a podcast playlist. In this case, it's a playlist full of Tragically Hip cover songs

by our talented listeners. Here's the deal this year. You can only choose a song that ranked from

169 to 41. To be included in Podlist 6, you'll need to submit your WAV files either by WeTransfer or

by emailing JD at tthtop40 at gmail.com with Podlist in the subject line. Are you ready to shoot your

shot and become podcast famous? What are you waiting for then?

[0:58] A member of the DATC Media family. Previously on the Tragically Hip Top 40 Countdown. At

Transformation is what we're chatting about today. Greg from Toronto, will you help me lift

enormous things? What did you think the first time you heard this? Oh, geez. The first time I heard

this, I was unaware of the emotional weight carried within this track. 100% unaware, just like, woo,

sweet tune. And then as time passes on, we learn so much. I just want to say, first of all, good job,

everyone, for getting this song in here. I feel like it's a little, the album as a whole is a bit under the

radar, maybe underappreciated. And for, yeah, 40, then this made it. I'm really, really happy. This is

way high on my own personal list. I love this song.

[2:02] Hey, it's JD here and welcome back to the Tragically Hip Top 40 Countdown. It is my pleasure

to be with you here every Monday as we spend time sharing stories and experiences while

counting down 40 essential tracks by the Tragically Hip that you chose with your very own top 20

ballots. I simply tabulated the results using an abacus and a tall, fat dude wearing David Byrne's

suit, and let me tell you, it fits like a glove. How have your favorite songs fared in the rankings? Let

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me know, tthtop40 at gmail.com. Oh man, have we got a great show today. This week, I am joined

by Hoxley from Huntsville. That's right, it's fucking Hoxley Workman. Hoxley, how the hell are you

doing on this hip-tastic day? JD, I'm great. This is so fun. Thanks for having me. No, great to have

you here is what I'm trying to say. Let's get right into this. Let's jump right into your TTH origin story.

Where does it begin, Hoxley? The tragically hip origin story. Well, I was really blessed to have a

great piano teacher when I was a kid. And that piano teacher became a school teacher just at the

time when I was, as a grade eight kid, starting to feel a little disenchanted with my school life.

[3:27] And he knew that I was like sort of a super drummer on the side there. And he knew that the

high school in my area was in need of a drummer. So he he brokered a deal to get me out of public

school and get me up to the high school just in a way that I could find sort of a home and be

connected to musicians. And all of a sudden I was this grade eight kid hanging out with high school

kids. Well, lucky for me, that was the summer that I met all the cool guitar guys from the high

school. I was a grade eight kid and then I was in their band. And then all of a sudden, we were in a

cover band and I was being taught songs I'd never heard before, like Blow It High Do and New

Orleans Is Sinking. So the first time I'd ever heard the hip, I'd heard it basically played to me by the

lead singer in my high school cover band. I didn't hear the song. He's like, it kind of goes like this.

The beat's a little like this. And that's how...

[4:20] I was introduced to the Tragically Hip by playing their music live way before I'd heard any of

the albums. It was, yeah, it's crazy. I was too young in a way to have been plugged into music in a

way that would have seen me having any sort of authoritative take on what was happening. I was

literally just a kid in a high school. I was a grade eight kid in a high school cover band playing

songs, most of which I'd never heard a lot of Canadian music because these high school people

that i was hanging with were cool and connected and they were like playing stuff grapes of wrath

songs we were playing and we were playing all kinds of very canadian oriented stuff.

[4:54] I didn't know most of it because i just wasn't plugged into music in that way i was still in some

ways listening to my dad's record collection and so that's how i first started with the tragically hip is i

i heard them playing their music in a cover band before i even heard the records of course when i

finally heard the record i was very moved by it in some ways it didn't sound anything like i was

expecting it to that sort of brooding um baritone vocal almost sort of sung spoke vocal that became

sort of emblematic of how gord would deliver all that sort of you know that high ranking um highly

democratized poetry that they gave canada all those years like um i was pretty blown away when i

was finally exposed to the actual recordings just how interesting they sounded because I wasn't

completely, some of the slide guitar work that was being covered by the guy in my high school

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cover band, I was like, it was a bit sloppy and I wasn't like, I was completely understanding where

the, the blow it high dough slide part. And then when I heard it in the record, I was like, man, it's

perfectly succinct. Everything in this recording makes absolute sense to me. And of course, it made

absolute sense to the entire country, almost all at the same time.

[6:09] That's what's mind-blowing about this band isn't it uh yeah just coast coast to coast really um

like even you know even in the french cities they they they drew and uh continued to draw what um

what was the record that you jumped in on if there if there is one was it up to here.

[6:31] Um up to here was the first cd from the hip that i owned my brother owned um the the record

with locked in the trunk of a car what was that completely fully completely that was his album that

was more he would have been like coming home after school watching much music and being

informed by all the hits um courage and all that stuff that was on fully completely i had sort of

deviated and kind of gone my own way musically at that point i wasn't sort of paying close enough

attention again really when i kind of felt reabsorbed by that band was road apples with cordelia and

those type of sort of very highly energetic singles but really when the hit made the most sense to

me and kind of came into my life in the way that i would say that like they changed the person i was

it ended up being a little a couple records later with um with phantom power that's when i had

moved to toronto i was probably in my early 20s um i was affiliated to universal records so i was

getting universal products sometimes for free when i go visit the office so i remember getting an

early Eminem CD and I got I believe an advanced copy of Phantom Power and I played Phantom

Power on repeat when I was making my first record for him and the girls I just couldn't believe.

[7:47] How artistically audacious it was and if I'm thinking back when I was thinking about what I

was going to talk to you about with that record in particular it's almost like when the hip, realized

they had kind of a rubber soul moment where it was like we can be more than just a rock band we

can be an art rock band and i think gord took it upon himself in that moment to sort of like.

[8:08] Be reborn through this art rock ethos and i feel that like there's so much musicality and just

courageous, um off-roading in um on the uh on that record that it it was the first record that grabbed

me in a lot of ways just more than just Gord's lyrics all of a sudden there was interesting songs

there was interesting production there was more acoustic instruments there was more kind of like

there was a grab bag of percussion there was just new things happening that we hadn't really

heard from that band we we up to that point I feel like we understood the hip as a as a guitar band

fronted by this you know kind of stream of consciousness genius and then all of a sudden they

became more artful i think on the uh on the phantom power album yeah i can see that completely

uh.

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[9:00] Like really like almost more melodic guitar work uh like going into music at work and the later

records for sure you know they got a little bit more experimental uh less bar band you know less

bar band i mean it's i've always sort of said look if if we're talking about bar bands fronted by these

enigmatic geniuses i'll take the hip over pearl jam and rem any day of the week like in some ways

there's similar dna to those bands where you've got like the the backing music is let's say it's it's it

doesn't ask a lot of the listener where the real the listener really gets taken to task is by the singer

with those kind of stream of consciousness that deeply poetic lyricism that that's where the real

challenge begins the kind of the the four chord rock that's happening in the background is kind of

the tricky part you're you're you're sort of you're led into a picture that you think oh this is going to

be simple music to absorb but as soon as you're hit with the lyric it's like oh my god i was tricked i

was tricked into coming to this party i didn't know that it was going to be so difficult with so much

sort of this this lyricism that was going to be interesting saying and almost difficult to absorb. Yeah.

Someone spiked the punch for sure at this. Oh yeah.

[10:13] Um, I suppose you around that time started being on, on the road yourself. Did you ever get

a chance to see them on the road? I saw the hip when I was just a kid going to Molson Park for a

Canada Day week celebration. I remember it being rowdy. I remember feeling like the hip were

hitting a new level of fame. I feel like Molson Park had this raucous, almost dangerous feeling. I

remember Gord kind of coming out on stage and making some joke about how he took a shit in a

Molson dump, dumping a Molson toilet and then wiped his ass with some Molson toilet paper and

kind of drove home the whole sort of like the hyper branding around the beer brand that we were all

there to sort of celebrate. And I remember there being this kind of biker guys letting off, fireworks in

the audience. And it felt like, yeah, like there was like fireworks shooting over my head. I just felt

like something we'd plugged into something that felt a little dangerous and unhinged and i feel like

the hips energy that's another piece of it in a way that unhinged.

[11:27] There's something dangerous in that band i and i don't entirely even just talking about it out

loud it isn't even an idea that i've necessarily crystallized in the past but thinking about that that

show at the at the molson park all those years ago like they were very much in line with that rowdy

energy that was taking place there was something unbridled and i and they were right there for it it

felt like not that they were in any way encouraging anything violent not at all it's just that their music

accompanied this really restless vibe that was taking over that that whole place that day in a way

that was convincing past oh like it wasn't just an accompaniment there was some sort of co-project

in that moment wow yeah i remember seeing them i think the co-project to be honest with you the

co-project between gourd and those lyrics and and an entire country is kind of a reoccurring theme

you know i i remember seeing how much the toronto um the toronto critical press the music press

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in toronto in those days hated on the hip over and over again the hip would release a record and it

would give the toronto press an opportunity to sharpen their knives and and sort of and go on

attack with the hip and of course it was just toronto hipsters that didn't like the look of the audience

of the hip. I don't even know if they were really necessarily judging the music.

[12:43] It was that they didn't like the look of the audience. For me, as a kid who grew up in the

rurals of Ontario and saw that my neighbors were rural people, and even the way that that's been

used as a political divider in Canada, the rural-urban divide, never made any sense to me. I was

somebody who traveled the world in an urban environment. I was happy to live in Paris, but equally

as happy to speak comfortably to my rural neighbors who were working people who could fix their

cars or working people who could, you know, who could do plumbing or do all this stuff that, you

know, um.

[13:16] That these people that that i was raised next door to who i thought they were very high value

people i think gord's gord's gord's lyrics spoke to those people the fact that he was democratizing

poetry for like the backwards baseball cap wearing sort of majority of like rural canadians to me.

[13:36] The toronto hipster class they hated that they hated that this guy was making music for real

people in that same way that that those elitist kind of like institutions always dislike when there's

something being given to common people that's not theirs exclusively and i feel like that's the piece

of the hip puzzle that is going to make that band something that a you and i were lucky to have run

through our childhoods and through our adult lives but i also don't believe there's we're ever going

to see a band ever like that ever again in canada because i just don't know a we don't have the

media landscape for the entire country's attention to be on a single act you know art and culture in

general thanks to the internet has gone a la carte so there's just no way for us to all be watching

the same videos all be reading reading the same record reviews all be sort of having our attention

pushed in the in the same general direction i'd also say that i think that gord had a natural eloquent

eloquent rebellion about him any bands that i see attempting to become the next big thing in

Canada are very, very commercial. And you can tell are making decisions that are highly

commercial, decisions that are made in partnership with their management and their labels. And

they're not necessarily making decisions on the art. And this is in no way an indictment on anybody

in the way they're trying to conduct their careers. It's very hard to be in the music business. But

what the hip did, I sometimes feel like it's never really truly been...

[15:04] It's never really truly been boiled down to something that where we can really truly

understand the full dynamism of why that music had the impact on a culture it did why i don't think

there's been a band like them before that and i don't think again like i said i just don't think we're

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ever going to see anything like it come after it either the 90s were the the perfect.

[15:27] Cocktail you know in a way like canadian product like there was production facilities there

was places to play live gigs yeah like there was a ton of canadian bands that were making a living

you know like and going dipping into the states and doing everything and now that you know it's it's

just so different now it's it's staggering you know concerts being 500 bucks and 250 bucks and stuff

like that it's it's mind-blowing to me that uh that uh that it's like that but the the hips certainly did you

know transcend that i i like that idea of it's not the band i hate it's their fans yeah it's unfortunate

that that um for a lot of music critics that they're unable to unwrap themselves from that very

obvious and somewhat um it's a cumbersome bias but they're they're pretty wrapped up in it and in

a lot of ways like when you read a piece of music criticism usually that that bit of writing is meant

more to showcase the thoughts and features of the writer unless I think usually about what's really

happening in the music. And that, again, is just about somebody whose bias is that they would like

to be recognized for the thing they do. I had a great dinner one time with Gord, actually.

[16:43] We were in a very similar social circle for some years when I was very early in Toronto. My

management was connected through Andrew Cash to Gord and some of his kind of people, the

Sky Diggers. And anyways, I remember being at a dinner with Gord, I think, at a French restaurant

in Kensington Market a million years ago. This was two weeks before Lover Fighter came out. And

both Matt Galloway, who was writing for Now Magazine, and somebody, I feel like, in the Globe and

Mail, two newspapers that were a big part of making me, like, setting me on my sort of, like, soon-

to-be. Household name status and i remember both now magazine and global mail on my first

couple of records you know that i could do no wrong for those records just that the reviews i was

getting and the attention that i was getting from those papers was was very intense and very

positive and then sure enough i sign a major label deal i create a major label record i put it out

there and then two weeks before record release both those publications come out with just.

[17:51] Just deadly reviews, just terrible, awful, nasty reviews. Of Lover Fighter? Of Lover Fighter,

yeah. And you could just tell it was one of those typical Canadian things where, hey, we built you

up and we're back for payment, which is we're going to get to cut you down. And that's how that tall

poppy thing is kind of how the Canadian system kind of worked. And so I had really been feeling

pretty bluesy about it because I'd never really received bad reviews. And I could tell that these two

reviews that I'd received from my Toronto media people were in some ways disingenuous. You

could tell they thought I was owed some comeuppance. I was owed a kick in the teeth from my

maybe appearing like I was getting too big for my britches only because I'd signed this label deal.

And then, so I was pretty devastated. And so at this dinner, I remember saying to Gord, man, like it

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was early in the chat. I was like, I'm having a bluesy time because I've just, I haven't even, this

record's not even in the stores. It's two weeks away from being in the stores And these two critics

are sort of They're trying to outdo one another Racing to the finish to be the first one To tell the

world that my new record's a piece of shit And Gord was very thoughtful, man Like he was like

sitting with.

[19:02] Somebody who'd received enough bad reviews To understand just how pointless it was To

lose any sleep over it And he kind of said It's amazing that they've come out two weeks In advance

of the record To try and lay this kind of slaughter on you He's like it's indicative of how important

they think you are to the to the music scene that they're going to be able to glean an opportunity, for

their own you know a moment of their own fame by just being the first to shit on somebody who

they'd helped build in the past and he he had a very like fatherly you know thoughtful you know i'm

the patriarch of the system i see how it works i've i'm above their criticism it was just gentle

thoughtful and it really was warming and gave me a sense that i could sort of step back from the

the hurt feelings i had from those moments and he just gave me a he really helped to galvanize and

and in some ways i think about that dinner all the time whenever i'm going through a situation

where i feel like i'm being unnecessarily criticized i think about a true i got to sit across from a true

artist who said it's just not worth like they're there you know your music's going to last a lifetime and

their review is going to end up in the recycling. Like it's just not, not to be compared, you know? No,

not at all.

[20:16] Wow. Uh, Gord Downey. What a, what a guy. Oh man. The dude of dudes, you know, like I, I

think I played. And they all are really like, I shouldn't. Yeah. No, I just know him the best of, of all, of

all the other guys I've met them. And they've all been lovely to me individually. Like I know I've been

at dinners and it's like, Oh, I wasn't expecting to see Gord Sinclair here. And like, it's like, and now

he's a lovely guy. Like who knew? Of course he was going to be a lovely guy. These are lovely

characters, you know? Um, and, they built their fame the good old-fashioned way of being out on

the road and of delivering to audiences in a consistent way that meant that they could be relied

upon to be one of the truly great touring acts in Canada like to do what they do comes with a

natural humility built in because nobody gets famous without taking it on the chin so they would

have taken it on the chin a lot of years in a row before they they were to take the mantle of of of

national treasure you know yeah, do you at this point have like a record that you will go to or is it

still phantom power for you, like if you're feeling a certain way is there a record you'll throw on i

mean.

[21:30] It's amazing how much of their late what i would consider late later mid period like we would

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listen to vaccination scar on the way in here uh that was the music we came in on your show too

um what's troubling gus, it's a good life if you don't weaken like I actually skew I skew to that era for

whatever reason again I was signed to Universal and I was receiving these CDs for free I hate to

say from the company and then I had I had a lot of time, as a young artist who would get a stack of

CDs from.

[22:04] From Universal to spend with these Tragically Hip CDs. And I think I was also particularly

galvanized because Now Magazine was shitting on all these records. So I was like, okay, Now

Magazine has started to shit on me. So now I was like, okay, I'm actually interested to hear what

could be possibly so horribly wrong with this Tragically Hip record that I'm going to listen to it top to

bottom. And then when you hear songs like Vaccination Scar and you hear songs like It's a Good

Life If You Don't Weak and you're just like, holy fuck, this could be the best songwriting of this of

this band's career like i liked when they brought in the piano in um what's the world container

record like world container that's right i liked all those records i like i again i i didn't begrudge that

band for wanting to become more artistic and i think in some ways even that that toronto critical

crowd was like well i didn't like when they were serving their fans and now that they're trying to get

more musical i don't like that either. And it's just like, look, this band is never going to please you.

Like, I think I just don't have a, I don't need to be defined by this band. I don't need to be defined by

not wanting to be their fans. I am a fan. And again, it was, it boils down to the fact that I never

politically bought into the idea that my rural neighbors were somehow problematic. They were good

people like me. They were talented people like me. They were, there were people who had

something to offer the world. And the fact that this band was, was creating poetic music for these

people to me.

[23:26] Wasn't wasn't the terrible feature to me this was a this was a eureka it was like of course

Canada should have poetry that defines us and connects us all like it's it's absolutely essential I

think you can you go to any long-standing culture there's going to be these moments in those

cultures histories where something comes along that that does glue us effectively all together and I

think the hip was a beautiful way to do that, I love hearing you talk about your rural neighbors

because I grew up in a small town. In fact, you played this small town. And it's a small town. It's

2,500 people. You played the town hall, which has now been converted into a, like a really intimate

space. And the town is called Waterford. I don't know if you remember that, but man, that was a

great show. Thanks. Great show. Yeah. A lot of fun. So I grew up. I grew up until I was 20 years old

and moved to Toronto, you know, among the same, among the same salt of the earth people.

Right. So I really relate to that.

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[24:31] It's, it's a part of the Canadian experience that I think only because there's so much political

point keeping and tribalism that we're having to suffer through these days. And somehow there's

been some, there's been, we've redefined or rebranded like this, and it's been used against us

politically for decades. And it's, whether it's on the right or on the left, there's always this, oh, well,

you city people are more sophisticated than those country folk. Or if it's somebody trying to appeal

to the country folk, well, it's those damn idiots who are here ruining it for everybody. I'm like, whoa,

whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So this whole rural urban divide in Canada, it's like if if Canada had like a

thousand year old urban history, if we were like if Toronto was like London, England, and had been

a proper city for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, like maybe we could start to draw

a line saying, yeah, there are people who are these sophisticates who are kind of live in these

places who've never seen, who've never had dirt under their fingernails. But come on, this is

Canada, man. We've been pulling stumps out of the ground recently. You know, like we're all, we all

are part of a very, you know, new, this is a new, a new experiment, you know? And so I just never

bought into this like pretend division. Plus, you know, in some ways I.

[25:43] I just don't, I'm just not a joiner. So sometimes if there's like two clubs and somebody's

saying you got to join one of these two clubs, I'm like, I'm going to join no clubs. Thank you.

[25:53] And I feel in a way that was, I feel like the hip where it joins no clubs type band. I don't think

they were singing politically for one stripe or the other. I don't think that Canada was embroiled in

the same kind of political tribalism that we are now anyways, but I definitely don't feel like the hip

had anything fundamental politically going on at all nothing whatsoever i just think they gave this

almost sort of like a uh this this beautiful gurgling rural gothic picture um stream of consciousness

impressionist lyrics um image driven uh image driven lyrics that sort of conjured up emotion the

emotion around the loneliness felt in isolation as rural people lonely rural isolated people in a cold,

inhospitable climate like there's stuff that there's a reason why we have an uh an arts and culture

system in canada that speaks to us we have a we have a very strange and somewhat absurd

relationship to life here like i mean it's difficult like i was just shoveling three times today you know

like where i live the the mother nature is busy trying to to kick us off you know it's trying to trying to

freeze me out of here you know like right there's something of i think that.

[27:16] Also, the reason why Canadians are some of the funniest people in Hollywood is our natural

relationship to absurdity. I think Gord was able to contain that acerbic eye on absurdity that is just

so defining for Canadians as well. I haven't i haven't heard gord described that way before that is

uh like the absurd like defining the absurdity that's really uh an interesting way to think about it

because some of his lyrics are yeah sort of absurd uh his his penchant for using your and and stuff

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like that um yeah really yeah all of that's a caricaturized ruralism you know like that character like

you know i could do my the rural accent that I grew up around as well. And I think that that's Gord

kind of goofing on the deep ruralism in Canada. Like there's a lot of rural dialect and I think he

would pull that out to play with it. I think his honest, playful use of language and even that to be

using Canadian ruralism like that, it was cheeky and fun. And I think fundamentally, he was trying to

draw that contrast so that we could see the absurdity in it. Yeah. Well, should we dive in and get

into some lyrics of the song of the week? Okay, let's do that. We'll be back right after this. Hey, this

is Paul Langloff from the Tragically Hip saying hello. Now on with the countdown. 32.

[28:45] Music.

[32:51] The final song on the Phantom Power long play is Emperor Penguin, coming in at number

32. Mr. Workman, what did you think of this track the first time you heard it? Well, I mean, I was

just, I mean, I get chills even thinking about it. I'm warmed by how playful, how kooky, and how

impressionist the lyrics are. I'm just, I love so much about, even Gord's sort of like, his glib

dismissal of the of the we've got a uh a caller here with a bachelor degree talking alien invasion is

the only chance for unity i'm sorry to interrupt you caller but that's a physical impossibility the way

he he kind of he he it's a clip of of life that you we would hear if we were driving late at night and

hearing the am radio you know art bells absolutely you know and we would be hearing this type of

a we've got a you know an expert here like even that that absurd, and somewhat astute and

pointed.

[33:56] Criticism of the expert which I think is contained here. Oh, we've got somebody here with a

bachelor's degree. And even now, I think as a culture, we're sort of expert obsessed to some

degree. We're almost awash in expertise. I think that's what I mean. He was able to kind of he was

going through the gold nuggets and just had a natural you could hear him chuckling, I think as he

was witnessing each passing absurdity that And I feel that it's very easy in Canada because like I'd

sort of said earlier, there is a.

[34:27] There's fundamental conundrums with living here, not the least of which is if you don't wear

proper clothing, you're going to die outside. There's very simple stuff that leads to why we have that

relationship to absurdity we do here. I think when I heard even the opening lyrics like, I like the tone

of your trumpet, come on, let's spill some paint. Let's raise a glass of milk to the end of another day.

The way that he portrays himself there in such a childlike way where let's raise a glass of milk. Now

we're all kids. Now we're all Gen X kids in the 70s and 80s drinking out of a hose, you know, with

no shirt on in the summer. Our parents haven't seen us in four hours. Yet we're talking about the

tone of trumpet and we're spilling paint and we're raising glasses of milk. Like we know that we're

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mixing metaphors here, but it feels like we're at the sandbox table in our kindergarten room

together. It feels like we're all children kind of having that similar experience. I can smell the erasers

and the cold snowsuits in the hallway. Like there's something about the way Gord is able to reach

for language. That's so evocative. I feel like when I heard emperor penguin, this was what started

to spill over me. It was, it was like a primary colors picture of my childhood started to emerge in this

song.

[35:38] So you've got a special relationship with this song, having played it, covered it on the

strombo 30 back in 20, 2018. That was right. I don't know when you recorded it, but I think it was

played in 2018. Yep. And, um, I'm curious to know about that relationship and I'm curious to know

when it, when it formed, like, did you grab a guitar right away and try and figure it out or, you know,

play along with it? Or did that come much later? Yeah, much later. I mean, I think wanting to cover

hip songs, we would cover them as a band in soundchecks all the time. Like as a band, we would

play, um, I would play.

[36:19] We would do hips i'm just blanking on the on the title we would do hip songs we would do

blue rodeo songs we would do canadiana on the road but i hadn't really been called on to cover a

hip song properly and i think it really was when strombo reached out i was like i really want to do

something that i wanted to do a cover that represented the hip that i love that i truly love not the

kind of the hip that like i could speak to because it's hard not to speak to the hip somewhat astutely

just being canadian and growing up at a time when they were absolutely everywhere but i wanted

to, to sing a song that i felt truly represented the artful side of the hip that spoke to me properly

spoke to me as an artist not just from nostalgia and not just because i was trying to be contrarian

and like oh you're uh you know you hip torontoni torontonian like critics you hate this stuff but i'm

i'm the cool guy who's gonna say i like it i actually do do like the hip i i truly love them i feel like they

speak for me just as clearly as they as they speak for anybody and i think that the emperor penguin

tune just had enough absurd and cheeky stuff going on lyrically i even the um.

[37:29] The lyric about to not wipe your asses with your sleeves again like it's like a kindergarten

teacher coming down to tell us us like unruly animals again who are playing hot wheels cars out on

the schoolyard that like um there's a wisdom we're going to have to start, to invite in if we're going

to grow together you know there's there's there's going to be pieces to adulthood that we're going

to have to slowly invite in i feel like there's a resistance to adulthood in this, lyric in particular and I'd

even think that there's some resistance to adulthood in Gord's lyrics in general even you know that

there's nothing uglier than a man hitting his stride like you could tell he was even starting to, he was

starting to poke around with what even was maybe some of his discomfort with.

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[38:22] Maleness or machismo and I even thought that some of the early hip stuff if anybody

balanced, macho with just kind of artsiness was always Gord like I think that there was something

very masculine about Gord but it was it wasn't masculinity that shut people out I feel like it was a

trusted strength in that room where Gord sang from a place of empathy and it felt strong and

fatherly to me um I know that that's not necessarily like you know that's not maybe politically

fashionable but that's that was my feeling around the hip and i still even like as i told you that story

of sitting with gourd as a fatherly figure saying oh yeah the toronto the now magazine took a shit on

my record and here here son those you know don't don't worry don't worry none about about those

silly guys they don't know what they're really doing here and you know just i to have an exposure to

somebody who'd gone through what they'd gone through with that kind of level-headed experience

i mean i remember even playing with gourd in in holland one time i had released a book um a

poetry around when he released coke machine glow.

[39:31] And so we even got to talk backstage at that we were at a writer's festival together, anytime

you got to be around gord he always remembered your name that was one of the things you'll hear

i think over and over again when you hear about people who know who knew him in particular it's

like i hadn't seen gord sometimes in eight ten years and he knew exactly who i was when i walked

through any room and was congenial and thoughtful in every possible way he was one of those

great gentlemen you know not that this is about him but it's hard to it's hard to extract our

understanding in this band without him we all know that rock and roll is predicated on a great front

person and he was one of the truly greatest and i'm talking greatest greatest of all time no matter

what slice of culture you're looking at whether it's british american or canadian he was one of those

enigmatic front people that is simply you're never going to be able to duplicate, I can't agree with

you more. I can't agree with you more. And to me, as soon as you were talking about the familial

thing, like I was going to say big brother, but yeah, I can see fatherly as well. Yeah. Uh, because

he's got that softness and that, and that, um.

[40:37] Uh, almost shyness, you know, like I've met him one time and it was, it was, you know, sort

of shoegazing and, you know, uh, and then you see him on stage and he's a goddamn animal. I

know. Yeah i i mean i think gord's one of these people who's a the great performers i think are, can

be defined as people who have a very sharp peripheral i think when gord was on stage he seemed

like somebody who was caught up in his own universe and i believe he was but i think, i think he

was absorbing all the available energy information that was in those rooms i think he was in some

ways shape-shifting to mat that energy that was in those places i remember playing with the hip in

stratford ontario a million years ago at a festival and it was some outdoor thing and i feel like it was

thrown together somewhat last minute i remember being added to the bill late.

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[41:32] And but it was cool because we you know i was right next door to the hip stressing room and

so we were kind of passing each other in the hallway and even at one point they were kind of like

hey do you guys have any extra vodka in there and it's like yeah somehow we got more than you

guys and yeah come on in and and they they were giving helicopter rides at this festival and gord

was so distraught about it he was walking around backstage kind of muttering about i don't like that

helicopter boy and nobody did like this helicopter was kind of swooping low over the audience and

gord in a in this moment of courage and conviction just said no i gotta i can't have i can't be thinking

on stage watching this helicopter thinking what if there's an accident. Now, of course, let's say that

the likelihood of there being an accident was very low, but I could understand his want to create the

environment where he could be himself in the kind of way he wanted to be with his audience. He

didn't want to have to be thinking about some fucking helicopter roaring over the crowd.

[42:26] He just wanted that thing to go away so that he could he could kind of he could reconstitute

that moment and take it over in the kind of way he knew that he was going to be able to deliver the

thing he needed to deliver without distraction. And I found that that was quite you know that wasn't

like um one of the gallagher brothers having a hissy fit that was somebody who was looking at the

situation holistically and going you know what it's just a feel right to me and i want this to feel right

to me because i want if when i'm feeling right i know the audience is going to be feeling right and i

know exactly why why he did that and and sure enough gord made the call i don't want to see the

helicopter in the air when i'm on stage and it went away. And I was like, man, that kind of conviction

is amazing. It's amazing. Yeah.

[43:12] Yeah, well, they're certainly missed. And Emperor Penguin at 32, I don't know. To me, it's a

top 10 song. Big 10. It's one of my favorites. So 32, I was a little bit chafed, but, you know. But do

you think, I mean, look at all the classics. Bob Cajun comes off of, what do we have in terms of

classics on Phantom Power? We got Bob Cajun, we got Fireworks, right? Are those the two

biggest? something's on but then we have lesser stuff like thompson girl um when she saw my

nickel stack she whistled hard and she whistled back or whatever like that's cool i mean come on

man like that record is just loaded with juicy stuff it's so artful and cool the hits aside and and you

could argue that bob cajun might is that their biggest hit head by a century maybe maybe beats it,

maybe but i would say bob bob k i like bob cajun better than ahead by a century personally.

[44:18] Yeah i had a friend i'll give you a quick i know that we're running out of time i'll give you a

quick anecdote because i had a friend who engineered phantom power and um he worked at the

hips bathhouse studio quite a bit and in fact was kind of one of the engineers that helped build the

studio and he told he told a lot i mean i've i've worked with him a lot have bugged him for a lot of

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like tell me some stories of behind the scenes at phantom power one of the stories he tells that is in

some ways not related to the record but related to the kinds of people that were in the hip um they

were recording one of the hip records i'm not even sure it was phantom power.

[44:52] And it was winter time at the bathhouse studio which was the hips personal studio and the

band started to make an outdoor rink and apparently they became so focused and so passionate

about the rink that the the progress in the record started to slow down to almost a trickle down to

nothing because the band couldn't be found they were like on hands and knees, perfecting their

watering schemes there are do we use heated water do we use cold water are we using like how

are we making and so the whole band was apparently quite consumed with making the absolute

perfect outdoor rink which to me when i heard that story is like there's no wonder this band makes

sense to us like we we grew up at a time when all dads everybody was figuring out how to make

the ultimate outdoor rink of course of course that the hip have got a co-project that they're making

another truly great record for the country but also that they've got this side hustle of making an

unbelievable outdoor rink for themselves i just thought that was just perfect.

[45:51] Yes. Uh, very Canadiana. Yeah, very much. So Hoxley, I want to talk a little bit about you

quickly before we bid adieu, because, uh, a couple of weeks ago you had a, um, a single drop on

February 21st, I believe it came out. Yeah. Yeah. Save my life. Yes. Yeah. No, I love this song.

Save my, I love the whole EP. Um, it was recorded in Vancouver, co-written with Steve Bass, who

was one of my mounties guys um i mean it's creative it's kooky it's me attempting to do what i

always do which is somehow like make absurd and and difficult kooky music that might somehow

trick its way into your own universe i look at the hip they they really did give us a blueprint as to

how to be weird, absurd, thoughtful, and artsy, and still be essential listening to the population at

large. You know, they really did something that is very hard to do. Well, we'll leave it at that. That's

a nice way to wrap it up. Okay, J. So, thanks for stopping by, everybody. And we're going to let

Huxley play us out with his version of Emperor Penguin. Oh, let's spill some pain. Let's freeze a

glass of milk to the end of another day.

[47:09] Music.

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