The Trending Communicator

Generative AI may be the first form of artificial intelligence that we can all interact with directly, with no skill needed apart from the ability to write or speak a set of instructions. And while it's arguably the hottest topic right now, other AI tools and applications can elevate capabilities and help communicators and marketers move up the value chain. 

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle ventures once again into the transformative potential of AI in the communications field with guest Danny Gaynor, Head of Kelp (which he co-founded) at Signal AI. Danny's journey from a political strategist and corporate communications executive to an AI innovator offers a unique perspective on how technology can reshape the way we approach storytelling and reputation management. Dan and Danny explore the critical role of AI in enhancing the precision and impact of communications strategies. They discuss the limitations of traditional methods like surveys and focus groups, which often provide outdated and narrow insights. Instead, Danny introduces the concept of discriminative AI, a powerful tool that uncovers the nuanced context of topics and entities - allowing communicators to identify their true areas of strength, optimize their narratives, and navigate potential risks with unprecedented accuracy. Danny shares practical examples of how this technology can validate intuition, offer reputational ROI, and act as a single source of truth across an organization.

They discuss how connecting discriminative and generative AI can be a powerful combination, helping communicators and their colleagues make data-driven decisions and demonstrate their impact. Looking ahead, they envision a future where AI-enabled communicators are not just content creators but strategic leaders who drive decision-making with data-backed insights, painting a compelling picture of the transformative potential of AI in the communications field.

Listen in and hear about...

• How measurement in communications is being transformed by AI, enhancing capabilities significantly.
• Danny Gaynor's transition from a political and corporate communications expert to co-founding an AI-powered corporate reputation platform.
• Distinguishing between generative AI and discriminative AI, and their unique roles in enhancing communication strategies.
• Identifying and leveraging unique proof points to create differentiated corporate narratives.
• AI's role in helping communicators validate their intuition, provide reputational ROI, and unify information across organizational functions.
• Why communicators need to experiment with AI, train their own AI models, and showcase the impact of data-driven strategies.
• Shifts in the role of communicators within organizations, moving from reliance on intuition to becoming strategic, data-driven influencers.

Notable Quotes

• [06:05] "As a communications professional, I think we're all vexed by the exact same question: Am I throwing the right spaghetti at the wall?" - Danny Gaynor
• [07:18] "A goal without a deadline is just a dream." - Danny Gaynor
• [40:13] "I very much see the folks embracing AI in communications as being even more influential leaders at their companies, as opposed to being out of a job." - Danny Gaynor
• [41:18] "If you're stuck with 'Oh well, if AI takes this away, what am I going to do?' then frankly, you probably deserve not to do anything once AI takes your job away." - Dan Nestle
• [57:50] "You can make AI your own, you can make the ingredients your own, and you can make the outputs your own in a way that is more accessible than ever before." - Danny Gaynor
• [59:52] "It's a very rare moment in the history of capitalism where we can develop something that will be industry standard and that will be reputational ROI, that will be quantifying the impact of communications." -DannyGaynor

Resources & Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• Dan Nestle | Twitter

Danny Gaynor

• Signal AI | Website
• Kelp | LinkedIn
• Daniel Gaynor | LinkedIn

Timestamped summary for this episode (generated by ChatGPT)

[00:01:09] Daniel's career journey

Daniel Gaynor shares his career trajectory from politics to communications and his focus on measurement and AI.

[00:05:35] Understanding discriminative AI

Daniel Gaynor explores the concept of discriminative AI and its role in communication and measurement.

[00:09:29] The need for data-driven insights

The discussion turns to the limitations of traditional research methods and the potential of technology to provide better audience research and insights.

[00:15:53] Leveraging AI for communication

The benefits of using AI to analyze big data and craft communication strategies based on authentic proof points are explored.

[00:19:44] Discriminative AI vs. generative AI

The conversation contrasts discriminative AI with generative AI and highlights its role as a complement tool in communication and creativity.

[00:20:42] Generative and Discriminative AI

An explanation of generative and discriminative AI and their potential synergy for content evaluation and categorization is provided.

[00:21:56] Limitations of Boolean Searches

The limitations of using keywords and the need for discriminative AI to evaluate accuracy and create reputational ROI are discussed.

[00:22:25] Identifying Areas of Strength

How discriminative AI can help communicators identify narrative strengths and weaknesses in competitive landscapes is discussed.

[00:25:17] Challenges in Identifying Strengths

The difficulties communicators face in identifying narrative strengths and the importance of foundational theory and horizon scanning are discussed.

[00:27:26] Training AI Topics

The process of training topics in discriminative AI to ensure accuracy and relevance in content categorization is explained.

[00:28:35] Tweaking Topic Definitions

The process of refining individual topic definitions until reaching high accuracy and the benefits of a broad horizon scan are discussed.

[00:29:33] Narrative Validation

The need for narrative validation and specificity in corporate narratives to ensure credibility and relevance is emphasized.

[00:30:41] Analyzing Message Effectiveness

Understanding where messages are falling flat and the importance of focusing on fewer, deeper storylines is discussed.

[00:31:50] Risk Avoidance and Reputation Threats

Using discriminative AI to determine material threats to reputation and focus attention on critical issues is discussed.

[00:33:01] Data Insights and Strategic Reports

The importance of providing data insights through dashboards and strategic reports to make data digestible for communicators is highlighted.

[00:36:29] Generative AI and Product Development

The potential for communicators to become product developers by leveraging generative AI and retooling the power of discriminative AI is discussed.

[00:40:13] AI as a Convening Force

The role of AI in communications as a single source of truth that provides quantitative rationale and reputational ROI is discussed.

[00:41:18] Abundance Mentality with AI

The speaker encourages embracing AI as an additive element and to have an abundance mentality towards change and upskilling.

[00:42:17] Embracing AI in Communication

The potential of AI tools and the need to experiment and gain expertise in AI are discussed.

[00:44:23] Strategic Shift in Communication

The evolving role of communicators from writing press releases to being strategic advisors and decision-makers is discussed.

[00:46:40] Professional Advancement and Recognition

The need for the communication profession to be recognized for AI expertise and strategic input within the organization is emphasized.

[00:47:10] Training AI and Socializing Data

The importance of training AI, socializing data-driven messaging, and demonstrating data-driven impact is discussed.

[00:50:09] Utilizing AI for Analysis

Ways to use AI for benchmark analysis and deep dive analysis to demonstrate the capacity of AI and big data are explored.

[00:54:53] Corporate Environment and AI Ownership

The need for AI ownership shared across different teams and the importance of recognizing AI's potential are discussed.

[00:57:50] Humanizing Messaging with AI

AI's role in humanizing messaging and making communications more relatable, digestible, and emotionally resonant is discussed.

[00:59:22] Hopeful Future of AI

Predictions about the future impact of AI and the development of industry-standard reputational ROI metrics are made.

[01:02:48] Adapting AI to Unforeseen Avenues

The speaker encourages embracing disruptive innovation and adapting AI to new and unforeseen applications.

[01:03:48] Reputational shifts in less sexy industries

Experimentation with AI in non-household name industries to manage reputational shifts is encouraged.

[01:04:42] Connecting with Daniel Gaynor

Information on how to find and connect with Daniel Gaynor on LinkedIn and Signal AI is provided.

[01:05:53] Future mini-series and show and tell

Discussions on making a mini-series within the Trending Communicator ecosystem and a potential show and tell video demonstration are mentioned.

[01:06:44] Closing remarks and call to action

The speaker expresses appreciation, salutation, and a call to action for subscribing, sharing, and leaving reviews for the podcast. 

(Notes prepared by humans with the assistance of a variety of AI tools, including ChatGPT and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Like it or not, Generative AI is becoming part of the communications toolkit. But unlike any technology that has preceded it, AI is able to perform tasks and produce results that have always been the domain of PR professionals - especially at the entry-level. And that's just today; AI is only going to get better. How can communicators and marketers adapt, adopt, and advance in this new, AI-enabled reality?

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle dives deep into the challenges and opportunities AI presents for communications professionals with Anne Green, CEO of G&S Business Communications. Anne, an award-winning communicator, thought leader, and advocate for ethics within the PR profession, is leading the charge toward AI enablement within her agency and for her clients. But she’s keenly aware of the technology's black-box nature and, in the episode, outlines an approach that ensures ethical adoption and enablement.

Anne and Dan delve into these ethical considerations and much more as they examine the evolving role of AI in marketing and communications. They discuss the importance of approaching AI with a critical and ethical lens, considering its impact on human interactions and the industry's hiring practices. At the same time, they explore how AI can enhance strategic thinking and help communications professionals deliver greater impact to their businesses. Anne also shares her concerns about online divisiveness and disinformation, emphasizing resilience and big-picture focus. The episode concludes with a positive outlook on human creativity and the importance of staying engaged in societal discussions.

Listen in and hear about...

• Ethical dilemmas for marketers in the tech and AI revolution.
• The critical role of ethics in AI-driven marketing.
• AI's growing business role and the imperative of strategic adoption.
• The need to find a personal advantage in new tech adoption.
• Adapting to AI's impact on communication and thought.
• The importance of bridging AI and organizational goals.
• The rise of online disinformation and its societal impact.
• Optimism in the human capacity for innovation.

Notable Quotes

• [05:50] "I want to see writing that's electric, that leaps off the page, even if it's a marketing pitch or something." - Anne Green
• [20:13] "There's a lot of misperceptions about what this industry is about, but like anything in human life, there are the angels and the bad actors." - Anne Green
• [29:01] "I want to invite people to think about big picture questions like what will it mean to be human? What does authorship mean? What does it mean to have co-intelligence or augmented intellect?" - Anne Green
• [41:08] "In the case of generative AI, you need to approach it as if you are about to have an interaction." - Dan Nestle
• [01:05:01] "I am kept up with the proliferation of divisiveness and fake stuff online, and very much engineered disinformation, which is upsetting to me." - Anne Green

Resources & Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• Dan Nestle | Twitter

Anne Green

• G&S Business Communications | Website
• Anne Green | LinkedIn

Timestamped summary for this episode (generated by ChatGPT)

[00:01:15] Anne Green's career path

Anne Green discusses her career path, from an internship to becoming CEO, highlighting the accidental nature of her journey.

[00:06:10] Reflecting on past experiences

Dan Nestle and Anne Green reminisce about their past experiences, specifically their connection through Cooper Katz and the impact of their mentors.

[00:10:56] The enduring importance of writing

Dan Nestle emphasizes the timeless importance of writing and critical thinking in the PR profession, despite technological advancements.

[00:13:14] Adapting to changes in communications

Anne Green reflects on the changes in communication, from the advent of social media to the impact of technology on writing and critical thinking.

[00:16:14] The role of PR in upholding quality

Dan Nestle discusses the frustration of spin in PR and the need for the profession to uphold quality, truth, and critical thinking.

[00:19:22] Challenges in content quality

Dan Nestle and Anne Green acknowledge the prevalence of low-quality content and the need for PR to play a role in promoting good writing and ethical standards.

[00:19:31] Ethical Awareness in the Industry

Discussion about ethical awareness in the communications field and the responsibility to maintain integrity.

[00:21:15] Adoption of New Technology

Exploring the industry's capability to use new technology tools and the need to bring an ethical lens to their usage.

[00:24:46] Impact of AI on the Profession

Discussion on the changing landscape of the communications profession due to the rise of artificial intelligence and the need for professionals to adapt.

[00:35:17] The Personal Relationship with Technology

Exploring the personal impact of technology and the process of finding "killer apps" that create a personal connection with technology.

[00:38:23] Projection into the Future

Contemplation on the profound changes brought about by new technology and the challenges of projecting forward in a rapidly changing industry.

[00:39:16] The complexity of AI

Discussion about the evolving security measures and the need to adapt to changing technological threats.

[00:40:04] Understanding the "black box" of AI

Exploring the mystery and complexity of AI's decision-making processes and the work being done to uncover its inner workings.

[00:41:04] Learning a new way of speaking to AI

Adapting communication styles to interact effectively with AI, emphasizing the need for a different approach compared to traditional search engines.

[00:42:07] Refining questions for AI interaction

Emphasizing the need for iterative and refined questioning when engaging with AI to extract the desired information.

[00:44:14] Adapting to conversational AI

Drawing parallels between the evolution of search engines and the need to adapt to conversational AI, highlighting the shift in interaction styles.

[00:45:55] Challenges and opportunities with AI adoption

Discussing the learning curve, mindset shift, and the potential for leveraging AI to work smarter and add value.

[00:53:19] AI's impact on communication professionals

Exploring the unique skill set of communication professionals and their potential to excel in leveraging AI for business and client needs.

[00:55:42] Evolving roles and skill sets in the AI era

Emphasizing the elite nature of communication profession and the need to recognize, practice, and adapt to the skill sets required in the AI era.

[00:59:02] The role of a communicator

Understanding the depth of knowledge needed about a business and its stakeholders.

[01:01:00] Enhancing communication through AI

Using AI to enhance communication by connecting dots and providing additional insights.

[01:05:01] Challenges and hopes for the future

Concerns about disinformation and divisiveness, along with hopes for a better future and the role of AI.

[01:06:55] Looking ahead with optimism

Expressing hope for positive changes through human creativity and invention, and the potential of AI.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Want to stop wasting time and money on conferences that don't impact your business growth? Imagine being able to select conferences that not only boost your brand's influence but also drive strategic partnerships and sales. Fortunately, there's a solution that will help you achieve this and more. Let's dive in and take your conference strategy to the next level.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle is joined by guest Melanie Samba, the CEO of Sproxxy, a one-of-a-kind platform that helps corporate communication and marketing professionals make data-driven decisions for events and conferences. 

Dan and Melanie delve deep into the ever-evolving role of technology in marketing and communications, especially as it relates to the traditionally Excel-driven world of conference and event planning. Melanie discusses the challenges of promoting communications technology (also known as commstech or commtech) to investors and emphasizes the importance of integrating technology into corporate strategies. 

They discuss Sproxxy's State of Conferences report, highlighting the significance of conferences for business-building, industry influence, relationship-building, and networking, and how the use of data-driven tools like Sproxxy can help optimize conference strategies. Through their conversation, Melanie shares her experiences as a tech founder, the integration of AI in Sproxxy, and the platform's potential to predict industry trends and influence conferences. She highlights the use of AI to gauge audience engagement at events and the insights that can be derived from conference data. Melanie also reflects on the challenges and excitement of being a woman founder in tech, her journey with Sproxxy, and her vision for its future.

Listen in and hear…

• Data-driven AI-powered approaches to measuring the impact of conferences
• The significance of building relationships with conference organizers
• Business impact of speaking engagements at conferences
• The integration of technology into marketing and communication strategies
• Skepticism surrounding commstech and conveying its value to investors
• Inevitability of technology's role in shaping the future of all companies
• Efforts of communications professionals to advocate for the integration of technology
• Insights from Melanie's experiences as a tech founder

Resources & Links

Melanie Samba

• Melanie Samba | LinkedIn
• Sproxxy | Website
• Sproxxy | Twitter/X

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• Dan Nestle | Twitter/X

Timestamped summary for this episode (generated by Capsho, my AI assistant)

00:00:00 - Introduction to the Importance of Conferences  Dan Nestle highlights the significance of conferences for learning, reputation building, and business development in the field of communication and marketing. He also acknowledges the anxiety and challenges associated with choosing the right conferences due to budget constraints. 00:01:39 - Leveraging Data-Driven Approach for Conference Selection Melanie Samba, the CEO of Sproxxy, discusses the need for a data-driven, AI-powered approach to choosing conferences and measuring their impact on an organization. She emphasizes the importance of making informed decisions rather than relying on past experiences or emotions. 00:05:03 - Challenges of Managing Conferences Melanie shares her experience in managing conferences for a pharmaceutical company, highlighting the complexities involved in coordinating over 400 employees' participation, ensuring regulatory compliance, and maintaining consistent messaging across the organization. 00:07:25 - The Underappreciated Role of Conferences in Corporate Communications The conversation delves into the underappreciation of conferences in corporate communications, with Dan and Melanie discussing the budget allocation challenges and the perception of conferences as a nice-to-have rather than a strategic necessity for thought leadership and brand positioning. 00:14:39 - Evolution of Sproxxy from Idea to Product Melanie shares the journey of transforming her initial idea of Sproxxy into a tangible product. She reflects on the pivotal moment when the pandemic led to the realization of the increased demand for events, prompting her to productize Sproxxy and pursue her entrepreneurial venture. 00:16:39 - The Rise of Virtual Events Melanie discusses the explosion of virtual events during the pandemic, highlighting the shift in focus and the doubling of industry events to 1.8 million. She also shares her insights into how conference organizers adapted to the new landscape. 00:19:31 - Building Relationships in the Conference Space Melanie talks about the importance of building relationships with conference organizers, similar to how relationships are built with the media. She explains how she developed these connections over time through her role in pitching executives and contributing to event programs. 00:22:44 - Importance of Community in Conferences The discussion delves into the significance of being part of a community at conferences, with Melanie sharing her personal experience of meeting her corporate comms head at a conference in Portugal. The community aspect is highlighted as a key motivator for attending conferences. 00:25:57 - Engaging with Media at Conferences Melanie sheds light on the presence of journalists at conferences and the opportunities they present for engaging with the media. She emphasizes the value of leveraging conferences as a platform for securing media coverage and building relationships with journalists. 00:33:07 - The State of Conferences Report Melanie introduces the State of Conferences report, emphasizing its focus on the brand's perspective and the value it brings to understanding conference strategies. The report aims to provide insights into the current trends and perceptions surrounding conferences for marketers and agencies. 00:33:59 - Peer-to-Peer Insights on Conferences Melanie discusses the importance of peer-to-peer insights for branding, marketing, and communications professionals in understanding what their peers are doing in the conference space. The report highlighted common issues such as managing conferences using Excel spreadsheets and the need for audience reach metrics. 00:36:56 - Differentiating Conferences and Trade Shows Melanie differentiates conferences from trade shows, emphasizing the focus on thought leadership, branding, and strategic partnerships. She highlights the importance of audience reach as the number one metric for measuring success at conferences, as revealed in the report. 00:40:06 - Impact of Speaking Engagements The report uncovered the increasing value of speaking engagements for executives and the business impact they have. Melanie discusses the importance of understanding the rationale for attending conferences and shares how Sproxxy provides insights on competitor activity at conferences. 00:44:01 - Refining Product Based on Customer Feedback Melanie shares how the state of conferences report was used to refine the Sproxxy product, aligning it with the needs and challenges faced by marketing and communications professionals. She emphasizes the importance of developing a data-informed approach for attending conferences and measuring success. 00:49:40 - The Evolution of Comstech and Sproxxy Melanie discusses the challenges of selling Comstech to investors and emphasizes the need for technology in every company. She reflects on her transition from corporate comms to developing Sproxxy and highlights the role of Comstech in enabling communicators to 00:50:59 - The Importance of Digital Communications and Marketing Integration Melanie and Dan discuss the necessity for companies to integrate digital communication and marketing strategies. Melanie emphasizes the importance of being equipped with the right tools to remain relevant in the future. 00:52:52 - The Origins of Sproxxy and its Purpose Melanie shares her journey of developing Sproxxy and its original purpose to prove the value of her work as a corporate comms professional. She highlights the need to have a data-informed approach and the role of AI in providing insights. 00:55:56 - AI Integration in Sproxxy and its Impact on the Industry Melanie discusses the integration of AI in Sproxxy and its potential to predict conference topics, influence industry evolution, and gather insights on audience demographics. She emphasizes the power of AI to accelerate innovation and change the trajectory of an industry. 01:00:27 - Leveraging Sproxxy for Thought Leadership and Industry Influence Melanie explores the potential of Sproxxy to predict conference topics, tailor thought leadership platforms, and influence the industry based on gathered data and insights. She highlights the role of communicators in shaping industry trends and influencing audiences. 01:02:28 - The Challenges and Excitement of Being a Woman Founder and the Future of Sproxxy Melanie reflects on the excitement and challenges of being a woman founder and the unexpected growth of Sproxxy. She emphasizes the need for more solutions in corporate comms and marketing and encourages others to step up and provide the necessary help for the industry. 01:06:56 - Exciting Future for Listeners Melanie expresses her excitement for the future of the listeners, emphasizing the potential for growth and success in their businesses. 01:07:22 - Where to Find Melanie Dan and Melanie discuss where listeners can find Melanie online, including her website, LinkedIn, and Instagram. 01:07:54 - The Cutting Edge of Conferences Melanie highlights the innovative functions and capabilities of Sproxxy.com, emphasizing its ability to help individuals understand and navigate complex conferences. 01:08:21 - Making Speakers Shine The conversation focuses on the importance of helping speakers shine and exerting influence at conferences, positioning the podcast as a platform for discussing impactful communication strategies. 01:08:40 - Closing Remarks Dan wraps up the episode, encouraging listeners to subscribe, share, and leave reviews, while also inviting potential future guests to reach out and be part of the show.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How do language and psychology impact leadership behavior and financial performance in organizations? Are we overlooking the influence of corporate language?

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with psychologist, neuroscientist, speaker, consultant, and author of Neuroscience for Organizational Communication: A Guide for Communicators and Leaders, Dr. Laura McHale. 

Dan and Laura explore the intersection of neuroscience and organizational communication, looking into Laura’s background in executive communications and her journey into neuroscience for leadership psychology. They delve into how status affects the brain, the SCARF model, and the concept of power distance in workplace dynamics before examining the complexities of employee engagement, the impact of social exclusion, and the importance of relatedness for a sense of belonging. They touch on the challenges of absentee leadership and the significance of inclusive communication practices for a positive work environment. 

They also discuss the intricate relationship between language, communication, and AI within organizational contexts. Laura emphasizes the significance of "pronoun agility" and the problematic nature of weasel words in corporate communication. Using Enron's internal communications as a case study, they explore how language can reflect a company's financial health. The conversation also addresses the potential of AI, like ChatGPT, to revolutionize the communications field while also considering the risks of misuse and the importance of understanding psychology and neuroscience. The episode concludes with reflections on the future skills needed by communicators in an AI-influenced landscape. 

Listen in and hear…

• The importance of understanding psychology and neuroscience in communications within organizations
• The complexity of communication in remote interactions and interpreting cues
• The neuroscience behind followership and cultural influences on behavior
• Impact of status on the brain and the SCARF model
• Leader distance or power distance and its effect on communication dynamics
• Complexity and challenges of measuring and understanding employee engagement
• Impact of social exclusion in the workplace and fostering a sense of belonging
• Implications of absentee leadership on employee communications and internal communications
• The relationship between corporate language and financial performance
• Concerns about the erosion of language and acceptance of weasel words
• Potential impact of AI on the communications profession and political discourse

Notable Quotes

• [27:56] - "When our relatedness is threatened, it lights up so many pain centers of the brain; it's an extraordinarily painful phenomenon." -Dr. Laura McHale
• [22:28] -"Absentee leadership is reported seven times more than any other destructive leadership behavior; it is absolutely epidemic in our organizations and a big problem.” - Dr. Laura McHale
• [45:03] - “It really doesn't matter how perfect a communication is if the leadership behavior doesn't back it up; actions speak louder than words.” - Dr. Laura McHale
• [45:30] - “We as communicators can be brilliant at drafting words, but it ultimately needs actions and behaviors backing it up, otherwise it just becomes an exercise in cynicism.” - Dr. Laura McHale
• [47:55] - “We can only go so far in helping the leaders to frame what they're going to say, but ultimately it's going to be their behaviors that truly matter.” - Dr. Laura McHale

Resources & Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• Dan Nestle | Twitter

Dr. Laura McHale

• Dr. Laura McHale | Website
• Dr. Laura McHale | LinkedIn
• Dr. Laura McHale | Email

Laura's Book

• Neuroscience for Organizational Communication: A Guide for Communicators and Leaders by Dr. Laura McHale

Timestamped summary for this episode (generated by Capsho, my AI assistant)

00:00:00 - Introduction to the importance of neuroscience in communication  Dan introduces the importance of understanding neuroscience in communication and the impact it has on leadership and organizational success. 00:01:15 - Laura's journey from communicator to psychology doctorate Laura shares her career journey from being a communicator to pursuing a doctorate in leadership psychology, driven by her fascination with leadership and human behavior. 00:06:39 - Laura's introduction to neuroscience Laura shares her introduction to neuroscience during her academic journey, where she developed a deep interest in the subject and its application to organizational life and communication. 00:13:14 - Differentiating psychology and neuroscience Laura explains the relationship between psychology and neuroscience, highlighting how neuroscience focuses on the physiological aspect of behavior, providing a deeper understanding of human communication and interactions. 00:15:27 - Impact of Zoom fatigue on communication Laura discusses the impact of Zoom fatigue on communication, highlighting the neuroscientific and psychological effects of excessive screen time and self-reflection during virtual interactions. 00:16:19 - The Impact of Zoom on Self-Image and Sociological Effects Laura discusses how our self-image impacts our focus and how the increase in dentistry and plastic surgery is related to the COVID Zoom epidemic. 00:17:07 - The Physiology of Behavior and Cultural Differences Laura delves into the physiology of behavior and how it leads to anxiety and stress, especially in different cultural contexts and power dynamics. 00:18:23 - Power Distance and Relatedness in Leadership The discussion explores the neuroscience behind deference to leaders and how it varies across cultures, emphasizing the importance of relatedness and its impact on the brain. 00:23:00 - Complexity of Constructs in Work Laura highlights the complexity of constructs in the workplace, such as leader power distance, and the challenges in understanding and measuring them, emphasizing the need to acknowledge this complexity. 00:27:29 - The Pain of Social Exclusion and Impact on Communication The conversation touches on the pain of social exclusion and its impact on workplace dynamics, emphasizing the importance of understanding and addressing relatedness in communication to avoid potential harm and misinterpretation. 00:33:43 - Inclusive and Exclusive "We" Laura discusses the use of inclusive and exclusive "we" in language, how it impacts social exclusion in organizations, and how politicians and leaders deploy them. 00:36:15 - Absentee Leadership Laura delves into absentee leadership, its impact on social exclusion, and the neglectful nature of this behavior in organizations. 00:37:10 - Understanding Absentee Leadership Laura emphasizes the prevalence of absentee leadership in organizations, its impact on employees, and the need for dialogue between leaders and their teams to address this issue. 00:39:01 - Recognizing Absentee Leadership Laura shares personal experiences of absentee leadership, the signs to look out for, and the importance of proactive communication and engagement to address this issue. 00:45:50 - Leadership and Communication Laura highlights the symbiotic relationship between leadership behavior and communication, the significance of words in corporate discourse, and the impact of language on company performance. 00:51:49 - Importance of Authentic Leadership Communication Dr. Laura McHale discusses the importance of aligning a leader's language with their behavior in order to avoid a disconnect. She emphasizes the need for transparent and direct communication without using negative messages padded with positive messaging. 00:53:10 - Impact of Weak Modal Words in Communication Dr. McHale points out how weak modal words and weasel words have influenced the acceptance of ambiguous language in communication. She stresses the importance of clear and direct communication, encouraging communicators to use concrete words and active voice. 00:55:38 - Influence of AI on Communication The conversation shifts to the impact of AI, specifically chat GPT and large language models, on communication. Dr. McHale shares insights on the potential implications and concerns related to using AI to craft messaging, highlighting its ability to generate hate speech and manipulative content. 01:01:10 - Communicators' Superpower in AI Era Dan Nestle expresses optimism about communicators leveraging their expertise in words and language to harness the potential of AI, particularly in prompt engineering. He emphasizes the importance of understanding psychology and neuroscience in working with AI. 01:05:36 - Cynicism and Optimism in AI Application The conversation delves into the dual nature of AI as an enabler and a potential manipulative tool. Dr. McHale discusses the need for vigilance in utilizing AI for communication and its potential impact on social cohesion and pro-social behavior.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

….and we’re back! Welcome to the first episode of The Trending Communicator. Dan Nestle reignites the airwaves with an electrifying new episode that will teach you how to think faster and talk smarter with communication expert, Stanford professor, author, and podcaster, Matt Abrahams.

Dan and Matt explore the nuances of effective communication and impromptu speaking. They discuss the importance of mindset, active listening, and structured communication in professional settings. Matt shares practical strategies, such as managing anxiety with academically verified techniques, reframing speaking situations as opportunities, and adopting a growth mindset. 

They highlight the use of storytelling and structured frameworks like the Problem-Solution-Benefit method and the hero's journey to craft compelling narratives. The episode also addresses cultural communication differences, the significance of audience-centric approaches,  and some thoughts on how AI might affect our approach to impromptu speaking. The conversation provides actionable advice for enhancing communication skills across various contexts.

This riveting conversation isn't just talk; it's a blueprint for revolutionizing your communication skills across every domain. 

Listen in and hear…

• The importance of effective communication and storytelling
• Managing anxiety and building confidence in speaking
• Reframing spontaneous speaking situations as opportunities
• Mindset shifts for successful impromptu speaking
• Techniques for adopting a growth mindset
• Improving listening skills through pace, space, and grace
• The role of structure and focus in effective communication
• Using frameworks and structures for impactful communication
• Challenges of communication in different cultural and professional contexts
• How AI might affect impromptu speaking
• Structured approaches to pitching ideas

Notable Quotes

• [12:27] - “Most people, up to 85% of people, report being anxious in high-stakes situations.” - Matt Abrahams
• [22:28] - “When something doesn't go the way you want it to, simply say to yourself, 'Not yet.'” - Matt Abrahams
• [25:46] - “Getting inside your head is such a big one, and I think if people pick up one thing from this, it's to get out of your own way.” - Dan Nestle

Resources & Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• Dan Nestle | Twitter

Matt Abrahams

• Matt Abrahams | Website
• Matt Abrahams | LinkedIn
• Matt Abrahams | YouTube

Mentioned Books

• Think Faster, Talk Smarter by Matt Abrahams
• Speaking Up Without Freaking Out by Matt Abrahams

Timestamped summary of this episode (thanks to Capsho, my AI assistant)

00:00:00 - Introduction and Personal Experience  Dan Nestle introduces the podcast and shares his personal experience of using Matt Abrahams' book to improve his communication skills in a workshop. 00:09:20 - The Six-Step Methodology Matt Abrahams explains the six-step methodology for speaking on the spot, focusing on reducing anxiety and striving for connection over perfection. 00:12:51 - Managing Anxiety Matt Abrahams discusses the two-pronged approach to managing anxiety - managing symptoms and managing sources. He shares techniques for symptomatic relief, such as deep belly breathing and purposeful movement. 00:13:37 - Overcoming Anxiety in Public Speaking Matt Abrahams provides tips for overcoming anxiety in public speaking, including purposeful movement and embracing the adrenaline response. He emphasizes the importance of managing anxiety to improve communication effectiveness. 00:13:55 - Overcoming Anxiety and Nervousness Matt shares techniques to reduce anxiety while speaking, including leaning in, holding something cold, and focusing on audience connection. 00:15:23 - Anxiety Management Plan Dan shares his anxiety management plan called PITS, and discusses the importance of finding mindset hacks to overcome challenges and setbacks. 00:17:55 - Seeing Opportunities Matt discusses reframing situations as opportunities rather than threats, and how this mindset shift can benefit communication and collaboration. 00:19:16 - Importance of Listening Matt emphasizes the importance of active listening to understand the bottom line and respond appropriately, highlighting the impact of deep listening on effective communication and insight. 00:25:31 - Mindset and Next Play Dan and Matt discuss the significance of mindset in communication, particularly the "not yet" and "next play" approaches to adopt an opportunistic mindset and avoid rumination. 00:27:46 - The Importance of Listening Deeply Matt Abrahams discusses the impact of not listening deeply and shares a three-step approach to improve listening skills: pace, space, and grace. He emphasizes the need to slow down, create mental space, and give oneself permission to pay attention to not just the words but also the underlying messages. 00:29:52 - The Art of Unspoken Communication Matt highlights the importance of listening for what's unsaid, referencing a hypothetical scenario where the unspoken message was "I just had a bad time in there." He emphasizes the need to pay attention to non-verbal cues and intuition. 00:33:19 - The Power of Structure in Communication Matt explains the significance of structuring messages in a logical way for better understanding. He introduces the concept of problem-solution-benefit and emphasizes the need for concise communication to deliver a clear message. 00:36:01 - The Impact of Personal Mindset on Communication Matt and the host discuss the mindset and personal tendencies that influence communication, such as the tendency to engage in "clock building" by providing unnecessary details. They also touch upon the impact of deference in communication, especially in hierarchical settings. 00:39:13 - The Value of Frameworks in Communication Matt highlights the benefits of using frameworks in communication, comparing it to having a map that guides the direction of the conversation. He shares a personal experience of using structure to deliver impromptu presentations and emphasizes the relief it brings in 00:41:50 - The Power of Table Topics in Communication Matt Abrahams discusses the benefits of table topics in improving impromptu speaking skills, drawing on his experience in Toastmasters. He emphasizes the value of being able to respond effectively to questions and situations. 00:43:45 - Importance of Knowing Your Audience Dan Nestle and Matt Abrahams highlight the significance of knowing one's audience in communication. They stress the need for communicators and marketers to be audience-centric and focused on the needs of their listeners, whether in a formal presentation or informal conversation. 00:46:02 - Practical Applications for Communicators and Marketers Matt Abrahams discusses the practical applications of communication methodologies for marketers and communicators. He emphasizes the importance of various communication skills, including pitching, small talk, and feedback, in influencing and engaging an audience. 00:48:19 - Structuring a Compelling Pitch Matt Abrahams shares a four-sentence structure for crafting a powerful pitch, using the example of pitching a whiteboard. He explains how the structure incorporates elements such as a hook, relevance, concreteness, and demonstrating the broad impact of the idea or product. 00:53:00 - Impacts of AI on Impromptu Speaking Dan Nestle raises the question of whether AI poses a threat to impromptu speaking skills. Matt Abrahams discusses his agnostic yet optimistic view on the potential impact of AI on communication, highlighting both its benefits and concerns. 00:57:00 - Embracing Humanity Matt encourages embracing human communication over potential future technological implants, urging listeners to prioritize improving their communication skills. 00:57:41 - Repetition, Reflection, and Feedback Matt emphasizes the importance of repetition, reflection, and feedback in improving spontaneous communication, highlighting the need for practice, self-assessment, and guidance from others. 00:58:19 - Free Resources Matt directs listeners to his website for free resources and encourages them to check out his book and podcast for further communication improvement. 00:58:56 - Gratitude and Contact Information Dan expresses gratitude to Matt for joining the show and initiating the next phase, while Matt offers to return and wishes Dan luck. They also provide contact information for further engagement. 00:59:21 - Conclusion and Call to Action Dan concludes the episode, inviting listeners to subscribe, share, leave a review, and reach out with guest ideas or interest in appearing on the show.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Discover the surprising transformation of "The Dan Nestle Show" into "The Trending Communicator." Just when you thought you knew what to expect, Dan flips the script, bringing a whole new focus on the power players in PR, communications, and marketing. Get ready to dive deep into the ever-changing world of communications, explore cutting-edge innovations, and unravel the impact of technology on our profession. Join Dan as he uncovers the secrets of information control and the immense responsibility that comes with it. But wait, there's more! Be prepared to meet the movers and shakers who are shaping the future of communications, from AI to neuroscience and beyond. Brace yourself for some mind-blowing insights and captivating discussions. It's a whole new era with "The Trending Communicator." Are you ready to join the conversation? Check back soon for episode one and get ready to be amazed.

Like these notes? You can thank Capsho, my AI podcast notes assistant. 

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this special episode, Dan shares his thoughts on the rapid rise in antisemitism in the weeks after Hamas brutally and barbarically murdered, maimed, raped, and kidnapped innocent Israelis, tourists, and visiting workers in southern Israel on October 7, 2023. These terrorists, on the worst day for Jews since the Holocaust, murdered approximately 1500 innocents, injured thousands more, and took over 200 hostages - including infants, children, elderly, disabled, and ill people from 33 countries. And they recorded all of it. 

Despite these atrocities and the incontrovertible evidence of the October 7 pogrom, despite the fact that innocents were deliberately attacked and the Hamas terrorists paraded hostages and dead bodies through the streets of Gaza amidst joyful crowds, despite the fact that Israeli babies were beheaded, despite the fact that Hamas openly calls for the elimination of the State of Israel and explicitly calls on its followers to kill Jews wherever they find them...despite all of this, anti-Israel, pro-Hamas, and - yes - antisemitic groups around the world took less than a day to start rallies, protests, marches, and a PR blitz AGAINST Israel and Jews. These despicable groups - a metastatic cancer that has spread around the world - have denied the atrocities and justified the Hamas attacks under any number of abhorrent ideologies. It wasn't long before synagogues were burning, Jewish property defaced and damaged, Jewish businesses vandalized, and violent incidents targeting Jewish people - including children, students, and the elderly - became a daily occurrence.

This inhumanity, this evil scourge of antisemitism, has deep roots in academia, religion, culture, and history. It has been the lifeblood of those who have persecuted and oppressed Jews for over two millennia. It has led to expulsions, pogroms, and the Holocaust. It has afflicted 15 million people presently living on Earth with an ever-present anxiety and fear of extermination. And now it is undeniably on the rise again, fueling Jew hatred everywhere. 

Why, then, is antisemitism ignored and denied? Why is it that our cowardly leaders can't say antisemitism without also invoking Islamophobia and generic hate? Why have CEOs and influencers who were and are so quick to support BLM, Ukraine, the Trans movement, anti-Asian hate, and a multitude of other causes, remained silent? Why have university professors, student groups, and administrators gone completely and utterly mad?

You won't find the answers in this episode. But you will find food for thought and a working definition of antisemitism that is a good place to start. Please listen, absorb, and think about how you can fight antisemitism or, at a bare minimum, see it for what it is.

***

Featured in this episode:

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) Working Definition of Antisemitism

Special thanks to The Commentary Magazine Podcast's October 23, 2023 episode with Michal Cotler-Wunsh, Israel's special envoy for combatting antisemitism, for inspiring me to do this.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode, Dan sits down with marketer, author, and two-time resigner turned bonafide career transition master Sara J. McElroy.  Sara’s journey looks a lot like the picture of success: academic achievement followed by a steady rise in marketing and ultimately to a CMO role. But in the midst of the Great Resignation, her battles with overwork, toxic workplaces, health crises, and sexual harassment all led to two resignations, a spiritual awakening, personal empowerment, and a mission to help women find their voices and take charge of their careers. Now, as founder and CEO of Raze to Rise, she’s on a mission to “uplift the voices of women from the Great Resignation across diverse walks of life, industries, functions, and career stages” and empower women to “make bold career moves.”  

She and Dan cover a lot of ground as Sara challenges conventional, “rational” career choices and argues that emotions, intuition, and physiology have a massive role to play in making life-changing decisions.  Here’s a taste of what you’ll learn about through their conversation:

• How and when to manage your career. 
• Career management is a mindset and an inside job.
• The most important times in your career before making the leap. 
• Career transitions can be messy and it’s necessary … the Messcessary. 
• The life experience that prompted a life change. 
• The unlikely gift of Shingles. 
• Getting off the grid can often be the best thing. 
• Most professionals need more than a weekend to plot their next moves. 
• The critical role sexual harassment played in her life choices. 
• Seeing the connections of random events.
• Forward-thinking themes that came from the pandemic, especially for women. 
• The value of self-discovery and the role it plays in balancing life. 
• We can have a plan, but until we experience it, we don’t know. 
• Missing the senses of when it’s time to move on. 
• How to learn and leverage body signals. 
• The danger of internal capitalism.

Notable Quotes:

• “The moments of our careers that are most impactful are the ones that are coming in the in-between, not the big moment of turning in the resignation and walking out the door.” (4:26), Sara.
• “I just had the idea that if I just follow the playbook, that perfect life playbook where you climb the ladder and chase the fancier titles and fatter paychecks, and everything will work out.” – (9:01), Sara.
• “I went off to Peru and began reconnecting with the parts of me that weren’t just lost over the last couple of years and even childhood.” – (13:01), Sara.
• “The lather, rinse, repeat of our current lifestyle keeps us really stuck.” – (14:40), Sara. 
• “Valedictorians by in large don’t become leaders.” – (19:44), Dan. 
• “Sexual harassment is not a style.” – (25:22), Sara.
• “I felt like I could not be the only woman who was getting mired in the spin cycle of being burnout, overwhelm, toxic culture.” – (32:20), Sara.
• “Designing a fulfilling career is an inside job.” (34:27), Sara. 
• “The expression listen to your gut is more than just a metaphor.” – (36:35), Dan. 
• “Our bodies are hardwired for experience of joy and bliss.” – (42:55), Sara. 
• “We are built to move through all of the things we’re facing in life through our senses.” – (45:19), Sara. 
• “In a professional world, you’re kind of like a brain, floating around in an apparatus that allows you to execute what you need to do.” – (50:40), Sara.
• “We have been taught to ignore the signs that things are not working for us.” – (51:27), Sara.
• “Disease is the last attempt to get our attention when we’re doing things that are not good for us.”- (51:27), Sara. 
• “We have the ability to feel into what we think is good.” – (54:44), Sara. 
• “It’s also important to meditate.” (1:01:08), Sara.
• “When consequences are larger and bigger and weighs on you, you really need to tune in and listen.” – (1:07:00), Dan.
• “Sometimes your employer is unable to give you what you need to grow.” – (1:10:00), Dan.

About Dan Nestle 

• The Dan Nestle Show (libsyn.com)
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• The Dan Nestle Show | Facebook
• Dan Nestle | Twitter

About Sara McElroy

• Sara McElroy - Instagram
• Sara McElroy - Linkedin
• Raze to Rise – Website

The key moments in this episode (as generated by my AI buddy, Capsho) are:

00:00:00 - Introduction

00:02:01 - Sarah's Career Journey and the Importance of the In-Between Moments

00:07:52 - Sarah's First Resignation and the Need for a Reset

00:12:47 - The Great Resignation and Finding Resilience

00:15:20 - The Impact of Divorce and Mental Health Issues,

00:18:07 - The Pressure of Being a Valedictorian,

00:22:51 - The Lack of a Life Roadmap,

00:25:26 - Resignation and Self-Reflection,

00:28:45 - The Journey of Personal Growth,

00:30:49 - The Journey Begins,

00:33:27 - The Power of Women's Stories,

00:35:17 - Designing a Fulfilling Career,

00:39:37 - The Unforeseen Path,

00:43:35 - The Role of Physiology,

00:47:29 - The Importance of Sensory Reactions,

00:49:10 - The Impact of Lack of Sensory Information,

00:50:59 - Ignoring Emotional and Physical Signs,

00:53:30 - Recognizing Signals and Taking Action,

00:58:15 - Using Visualization and Body Reactions,

01:02:51 - The Impact of a Job on Relationships,

01:03:30 - Measuring Readiness to Leave a Job,

01:04:58 - Balancing Rationality and Emotion in Career Decisions,

01:06:07 - Expanding and Growing Outside of Work,

01:10:30 - The Individualized Nature of Career Paths,

01:18:36 - The Impact of Self-Objectification and Internalized Capitalism,

01:19:06 - The Historical Origins of Work Culture,

01:20:25 - Challenges for Women in the Business World,

01:21:23 - Overcoming Biases and Empowering Women,

01:23:12 - Keeping an Open Mind and Trusting Yourself

Timestamped summary of this episode (also presented as generated by Capsho):

00:00:00 - Introduction to the Dan Nestle Show  Dan Nestle introduces the podcast episode and his guest, Sarah McElroy, who is a high-performing chief marketing officer turned CEO and career transition expert. They discuss the importance of managing one's career and the power of the in-between moments in career transitions. 00:02:01 - Sarah's Career Journey and the Importance of the In-Between Moments Sarah McElroy shares her personal career journey, including a difficult divorce, job loss, and health issues. She emphasizes the significance of the in-between moments in one's career and how they can shape the direction and decisions for the future. 00:07:52 - Sarah's First Resignation and the Need for a Reset Sarah talks about her first resignation and how it came after experiencing physical and mental health issues due to overworking. She decided to take a pause and went on a wellness retreat in Peru to reconnect with herself. This reset led her to make significant changes in her career and personal life. 00:12:47 - The Great Resignation and Finding Resilience Sarah discusses the concept of the Great Resignation and how it has impacted many people's career decisions. She emphasizes the importance of finding resilience during challenging times and shares her own experience of quitting her job after being diagnosed with shingles. This decision allowed her to prioritize her well-being and seek a more fulfilling career path. 00:15:20 - The Impact of Divorce and Mental Health Issues, Sara discusses how her divorce, mental health issues, and childhood trauma affected her. She shares her hospitalization and estrangement from her family, leading to feelings of worthlessness and a need to prove her value. 00:18:07 - The Pressure of Being a Valedictorian, Sara and Dan discuss how being valedictorian can create pressure and expectations. They explore the idea that valedictorians often become followers rather than leaders, as they excel at working within a structured system. 00:22:51 - The Lack of a Life Roadmap, Sara and Dan reflect on how the traditional notion of a life roadmap no longer applies in today's ever-changing world. They discuss the challenges faced by recent generations in navigating their careers and finding their paths. 00:25:26 - Resignation and Self-Reflection, Sara shares her experience of resigning from her second job due to sexual harassment and feeling undervalued. She discusses how these experiences pushed her to leave corporate life and become an entrepreneur. She also recognizes her own role in choosing these environments and the need for self-reflection and healing. 00:28:45 - The Journey of Personal Growth, Sara and Dan emphasize the value of personal growth and therapy in understanding oneself and making better choices. They discuss the importance of embracing the past and learning from experiences to shape a fulfilling career and life. 00:30:49 - The Journey Begins, Sara reflects on her decision to leave a terrible job and the inspiration it sparked to help other women facing burnout and toxic cultures. She starts a journalism project called Raised to Rise to capture the stories and wisdom of women experiencing the great resignation. 00:33:27 - The Power of Women's Stories, Sara realizes the universality of women's experiences during the great resignation and decides to turn Raised to Rise into a book. She wants to share the raw, messy, and inspiring stories of women to create a playbook for designing a fulfilling career. 00:35:17 - Designing a Fulfilling Career, Sara believes that designing a fulfilling career is an inside job. Rather than solely relying on external factors like job title and salary, she emphasizes the importance of self-discovery, intuition, and listening to our physiology to find greater fulfillment in our work. 00:39:37 - The Unforeseen Path, Sara shares how her book took an unexpected turn, allowing her to incorporate more of the ups and downs and unexpected twists of her own journey. She believes that embracing the unexpected and staying true to oneself is essential when navigating career transitions. 00:43:35 - The Role of Physiology, Sara explores the role of physiology in decision-making and career choices. She discusses the body's response to emotions and the importance of listening to our gut and heart, which are often overlooked in favor of the rational brain. Our bodies have evolved to seek joy and fulfillment, making 00:47:29 - The Importance of Sensory Reactions, Sarah discusses how sensory reactions play a role in our conversations and decision-making. She mentions that although we may not have all of our senses when communicating virtually, we can still pick up on cues and signals through what we hear and see. 00:49:10 - The Impact of Lack of Sensory Information, Sarah acknowledges that the lack of sensory information in virtual communication may affect our ability to recognize when it's time to make a change. She emphasizes the importance of paying attention to our emotions, body, and intuition to determine if something is not working for us. 00:50:59 - Ignoring Emotional and Physical Signs, Sarah points out that we have been trained to leave our emotions and bodies at the door in the professional world. She believes that ignoring these signs can lead to disease and that we should listen to our emotions, body, and intuition for cues about what is and isn't working for us. 00:53:30 - Recognizing Signals and Taking Action, Sarah shares her personal experiences of feeling a "scary buzz" and a mixture of anxiety and excitement when she knows she needs to take action. She encourages listeners to pay attention to their own body's signals and use them as a guide for making decisions. 00:58:15 - Using Visualization and Body Reactions, Sarah suggests a practice of visualizing oneself in different situations and paying attention to the body's reactions. By connecting visualization to our bodies, we can determine what 01:02:51 - The Impact of a Job on Relationships, Sara reflects on how her job affected her relationships in Australia and acknowledges that some of those relationships may not have been good for her in the first place. 01:03:30 - Measuring Readiness to Leave a Job, Sara discusses her quit readiness quiz, which helps individuals assess their readiness to leave a job. Factors such as stability in other aspects of life, length of dissatisfaction, comfort with uncertainty, and financial stability are considered. 01:04:58 - Balancing Rationality and Emotion in Career Decisions, Sara emphasizes the importance of not acting blindly on emotions when making career decisions. She suggests considering both rational and emotional factors, and taking a balanced approach that includes planning and thoughtful decision-making. 01:06:07 - Expanding and Growing Outside of Work, Dan and Sara discuss the importance of personal growth and expansion, both within and outside of work. They highlight the need to listen to the signals of growth, such as feeling stuck or the desire to stretch and evolve, and finding opportunities to fulfill that growth. 01:10:30 - The Individualized Nature of Career Paths, Sara emphasizes that there is no one-size-fits-all playbook for career decisions. Each person's journey is unique, and it's important to explore different paths and opportunities for growth, even if they may not directly align with one's current career. The focus is on individualized fulfillment and finding joy and meaning in various aspects of life. 01:18:36 - The Impact of Self-Objectification and Internalized Capitalism, The guest discusses the harmful effects of self-objectification and internalized capitalism on individuals. She emphasizes how these societal pressures lead people to believe that their worth is tied to productivity and achieving success in their careers. 01:19:06 - The Historical Origins of Work Culture, The conversation delves into the historical roots of work culture, tracing it back to the Industrial Revolution when humans were seen as resources to be valued based on their economic output. This mindset still persists and influences how we view work and ourselves today. 01:20:25 - Challenges for Women in the Business World, The guest acknowledges that women face additional challenges in the business world, such as being judged based on their marital status and motherhood. Despite progress, biases and stereotypes still persist, making it important to address these issues for future generations. 01:21:23 - Overcoming Biases and Empowering Women, The guest expresses her desire to empower her daughters and future generations of women by challenging societal biases and stereotypes. She metaphorically refers to carrying a "flamethrower" to burn down these biases and create a more equal and equitable society. 01:23:12 - Keeping an Open Mind and Trusting Yourself, The guest encourages listeners to approach unconventional ideas with an open mind, acknowledging that scientific advancements have often debunked previously perceived "mystical" beliefs. She emphasizes the importance of curiosity, self-discovery

*Notes were created by humans, with help from Capsho, my preferred AI show notes assistant.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode, Dan reconnects with a former colleague and marketing communications collaborator,  Michael Morris. A world traveler who has spent his career putting purpose at the forefront of everything he does, Michael recently co-founded Denmark-based Engagement Lab, an advisory firm specializing in behavioral insights, brand building, competitive positioning, and strategic communications – and focused exclusively on businesses in the green transition.

Dan and Michael dig into the importance of purpose and serendipity in career decisions as they explore Michael's fascinating story. Early in his career, during a stint in Ghana that didn't go according to plan, Michael realized that being a communicator gave him a unique role in bringing purpose to life, not just for himself but for his company and colleagues as well. His later work with World Vision propelled him on a purpose-driven path that continued through his work at MHI Vestas Offshore Wind, helping improve the lives of others through strategic communication. 

Through their conversation...

• Discover the road to fulfillment and maximum impact in your career, guided by purpose and authentic communication.
• Uncover the value hidden in networks and mentorships and how they unlock doors to personal and professional growth.
• Grasp the transformative power of empathy in fostering genuine relationships, elevating marketing communications to new heights.
• Understand the game-changing role of energy transition and sustainability in setting new standards for careers and businesses.
• Delve into the fascinating interplay between AI and the writing landscape, highlighting the tightrope balance between creativity amplification and preservation.

Notable Quotes:

• “It’s important for us to recognize poignant moments when they happen.” – (8:21), Michael
• “Every person that you meet is a whole new door to who knows what else.” – (11:00), Dan
• “I choose to believe that things happen for a reason because if only because then I’m more aware of when things happen and who I’m meeting with.” – (17:44), Michael
• “Let’s make sure that we’re doing our best to have continuity between the internal experience and the external messaging.” - (37:08), Michael
• “Because of tech, you don’t have an internal announcement and an external announcement, you have an announcement.” – (40:40), Michael
• “Your work is made better by cultivating and integrating your peripheral interests.” – (1:00:07), Michael
• “AI doesn’t care about the truth.” – (1:09:00), Michael

About Dan Nestle 

• The Dan Nestle Show (libsyn.com)
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• The Dan Nestle Show | Facebook
• Dan Nestle | Twitter

About Michael Morris

• Engagement Lab - Website
• Michael Morris - Linkedin

The key moments in this episode (as generated by my AI buddy, Capsho) are:

00:00:00 - Introduction, 00:00:19 - The Power of Purpose, 00:04:14 - Michael's Journey, 00:08:30 - Working with Purpose, 00:15:12 - The Heartbreaking Reality in Sub-Saharan Africa, 00:16:50 - Embracing Serendipity and Openness, 00:19:42 - The Power of Storytelling in Communications and Marketing, 00:21:08 - The Superpower of Connecting Dots and Cultivating Empathy, 00:26:15 - Engagement Lab: Facilitating Connection and Empathy, 00:31:22 - Overview of Communication Scope, 00:32:47 - Communication Challenges in the Energy Transition, 00:33:27 - Identifying Needs in the Energy Transition Space, 00:35:05 - Importance of Founding Values and Employee Engagement, 00:36:23 - Internal Communications and External Messaging, 00:47:31 - Dealing with Impatience and Inspiration, 00:48:24 - The Ambivalence of Gen X, 00:49:39 - Embracing a Balanced Approach, 00:51:51 - The Long-Term Nature of the Energy Transition, 00:54:02 - Acknowledging the Benefits of Power, 01:02:54 - Introduction to Barrett Road and its Agile Approach, 01:03:25 - The Impact of AI on Writing and Creativity, 01:05:34 - AI's Potential to Replace Writers and Artists, 01:09:15 - AI's Lack of Commitment to Truth and Connection, 01:13:30 - Embracing AI as a Tool and Making Writing More Efficient, 01:17:13 - The Power of Technology in Graphic Design and Artistry, 01:18:37 - Unleashing Creativity with AI, 01:19:44 - Experience and Career Advantages in the Age of AI, 01:20:31 - Connecting with Michael Morris and Engagement Lab, 01:21:29 - Gratitude and Encouragement

Timestamped summary of this episode (also presented as generated by Capsho):

00:00:00 - Introduction,  Dan Nestle introduces the podcast and his guest, Michael Morris, a strategic communications professional with a passion for purpose-driven work. 00:00:19 - The Power of Purpose, Dan and Michael discuss how purpose can transform a career and bring fulfillment. They emphasize the importance of recognizing pivotal moments and connecting with instrumental people along the way. 00:04:14 - Michael's Journey, Michael shares his journey from working in Ghana to traveling across Africa with World Vision. He highlights the impact of experiencing adversity and how it shaped his commitment to work with purpose. 00:08:30 - Working with Purpose, Michael and Dan discuss the significance of purpose finding you rather than the other way around. They emphasize the importance of human-to-human connections and being open to opportunities for making a positive impact. 00:15:12 - The Heartbreaking Reality in Sub-Saharan Africa, The guest discusses the heartbreaking stories of children dying from diarrhea in sub-Saharan Africa. He emphasizes the importance of addressing this issue and highlights the work done by World Vision. He also encourages listeners to support organizations like World Vision. 00:16:50 - Embracing Serendipity and Openness, The conversation shifts to the concept of serendipity and the importance of being open to unexpected opportunities. The guest shares his belief that things happen for a reason and encourages listeners to recognize pivotal moments in their lives. This mindset is crucial for success in the creative field and helps in building connections and empathy with others. 00:19:42 - The Power of Storytelling in Communications and Marketing, The guest explains how storytelling plays a vital role in communications and marketing. The goal is to persuade, convince, or change minds by using the power of story and imagery. Being open to connections and embracing serendipity is essential in effectively reaching and engaging with different audiences. 00:21:08 - The Superpower of Connecting Dots and Cultivating Empathy, The guest discusses the superpower of connecting dots that others may not see. This ability to find connections is essential in the creative field and contributes to success. It is driven by empathy, which requires mental energy and the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes. 00:26:15 - Engagement Lab: Facilitating Connection and Empathy, The guest introduces Engagement Lab and 00:31:22 - Overview of Communication Scope, The guest explains that their communication services are broad but limited to engagements that include upfront research. Their specialization is in the energy transition sector. 00:32:47 - Communication Challenges in the Energy Transition, The guest highlights the communication challenges faced by energy transition companies, such as assuming everyone believes in their mission without considering the need for effective communication and understanding of alternative solutions within the renewables industry. 00:33:27 - Identifying Needs in the Energy Transition Space, The guest emphasizes the tremendous need for effective communication within the energy transition sector, especially for rapidly scaling companies. They discuss the strain on culture, values, and internal communications as businesses grow. 00:35:05 - Importance of Founding Values and Employee Engagement, The conversation explores the significance of founding values and employee engagement in growing firms. Companies need to ensure continuity and alignment between internal culture and external messaging to maintain employee satisfaction and trust. 00:36:23 - Internal Communications and External Messaging, The guest discusses the importance of internal communications and how they influence external messaging. They stress the need for consistency and alignment between the internal experience and the external image portrayed to stakeholders. 00:47:31 - Dealing with Impatience and Inspiration, The conversation explores the dilemma of balancing impatience and inspiration in the face of climate change. It discusses the need for companies, leaders, communicators, and marketers to be inspirational while counteracting people's impatience about the state of the world. 00:48:24 - The Ambivalence of Gen X, The hosts discuss their generation's ambivalence towards various issues but acknowledge the importance of passionate individuals working in renewable and climate change-related industries. They emphasize the need for these individuals to see the bigger picture and the importance of focusing on specific areas and products to effect change. 00:49:39 - Embracing a Balanced Approach, The conversation emphasizes the importance of living with urgency and passion, while also maintaining a pragmatic view of the technology and practicalities involved in the energy transition. They highlight the need to blend the inspiration of environmentalists with the knowledge and understanding of technology experts. 00:51:51 - The Long-Term Nature of the Energy Transition, The hosts discuss the reality that the energy transition is a long-term process rather than an overnight fix. They acknowledge the need for political action to accelerate the transition but emphasize that it requires time, investment, and a willingness to explore and embrace multiple solutions. 00:54:02 - Acknowledging the Benefits of Power, The conversation acknowledges the historical benefits of power and energy in improving people's lives, despite the negative environmental impacts. They highlight the need for a cleaner and 01:02:54 - Introduction to Barrett Road and its Agile Approach, Michael Morris discusses Barrett Road, a family business known for its tight-knit group and agile approach in client engagements. 01:03:25 - The Impact of AI on Writing and Creativity, Michael shares his thoughts on how AI technology, such as Chat GPT, is impacting the writing process. He believes that while AI can enhance writing, the journey of exploration and creativity is what truly makes writing powerful. 01:05:34 - AI's Potential to Replace Writers and Artists, The question of whether AI will replace writers and artists is explored, with different opinions ranging from full replacement to AI being a tool for augmentation. Michael leans towards the idea of humans staying in control of the writing process for a more meaningful connection with the audience. 01:09:15 - AI's Lack of Commitment to Truth and Connection, Michael highlights the importance of truth and empathy in writing and how AI lacks the commitment to these aspects. He emphasizes the human-to-human connection and engagement that good writing brings. 01:13:30 - Embracing AI as a Tool and Making Writing More Efficient, While acknowledging the benefits of AI in enhancing writing skills and accessibility, Michael suggests finding a balance between using AI as a tool and maintaining the journey of research and personal growth that comes with writing. He encourages writers to embrace AI while still staying in control of the process. 01:17:13 - The Power of Technology in Graphic Design and Artistry, The guest expresses his surprise at the quality of work produced by AI tools like Mid Journey and Dolly, despite not having a background in graphic design. He highlights the potential for these technologies in the energy transition and cautions about the need for fact-checking. 01:18:37 - Unleashing Creativity with AI, The guest shares an example of how Chat GPT was used to discuss the carbon credit controversy in Shakespearean style, showcasing the creative possibilities of AI. He emphasizes the importance of humans in competing with AI and hopes that these technologies won't displace people in the value chain. 01:19:44 - Experience and Career Advantages in the Age of AI, The guest acknowledges that his and the host's experience and position in their careers protect them from being displaced by AI. He encourages others to find ways to compete with AI and expresses hope for the future. 01:20:31 - Connecting with Michael Morris and Engagement Lab, The host provides information on how listeners can connect with Michael Morris on LinkedIn and mentions the upcoming launch of the Engagement Lab website. He encourages readers to explore the work of Engagement Lab in the energy transition. 01:21:29 - Gratitude and Encouragement, The guest expresses his gratitude for the conversation and praises the host for incorporating different elements of his life into the podcast. The host reciprocates the appreciation and encourages listeners to subscribe and leave reviews.

*Notes were created by humans, with help from Capsho, my preferred AI show notes assistant.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode, Dan dives deep into some of his favorite topics with seasoned marketing pro, thought leader, podcaster, and fellow denizen of the RISE Community, Aaron Hassen. An Air Force veteran with decades of corporate B2B sales and marketing experience, Aaron is the founder and Chief Marketer of AH Marketing, his consultancy focused on helping B2B clients multiply their annual growth. Never afraid to chase down a new idea or pursue a theory, Aaron’s bold stance on current marketing matters has led him to become “the founder’s best friend and secret weapon.” As a founder-turned-marketer, he knows what owners and founders need to market their businesses and stay connected to customers. 

He and Dan explore some of that as they discuss how trust and emotion are absolutely necessary to make the kinds of connections that will shape the current and next generation of business. Listen to their conversation, and you will:

• Discover the essential role of trust and connection in marketing for strengthening customer relationships.
• Understand how to utilize personal branding to establish a formidable bond with your target audience.
• Unearth the potential of communities in fostering trust and creating a solid connection with your customer base.
• Recognize the impact of face-to-face interaction in building an authentic connection and lasting trust.
• Learn the significance of aligning your brand values with consumers to reinforce your brand identity and build trust. 

Notable Quotes:

• “I learned from sales to listen and to really listen deeply with empathy and understanding.” (10:31), Aaron. 
• “Servant leaders and great entrepreneurs embody the same things.” – (13:17), Aaron. 
• “Sometimes we get behind these closed doors and we start to think selfishly and that’s the worst thing you can do in terms of acquiring customers in my view.” - (14:40), Aaron. 
• “Consumers have control of a brand’s reputation, and they have access to product information like they never have before.” – (16:55), Aaron. 
• “Personal brands help companies become more than a product or solution.” – (27:16), Aaron. 
• “People do not trust companies the way they used to.” (28:30), Aaron. 
• “Customers are looking for integrity that somebody is going to be consistent and reliable to their values, purpose, and vision.” – (32:03), Aaron.
• “You’ve got to go through the process of understanding who you are and what your role and relevance is in the market.” – (33:17), Aaron.
• “Different people will have different perspectives based on how they’re traversing different challenges at their company.” – (42:44), Aaron. 
• On AI. “How do I know this is a real person behind it, how do I know the information isn’t false.” – (44:45), Aaron.
• “People are seeking human beings and they ‘re looking for solutions through trusted sources.” (45:38), Aaron. 
• “Relationships are built on trust and trusted relationships drive referrals.” – (54:31), Aaron.
• “You can’t buy trust.” – (57:16), Dan.

About Dan Nestle 

• The Dan Nestle Show (libsyn.com)
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• The Dan Nestle Show | Facebook
• Dan Nestle (@dsnestle) | Twitter/X

About Aaron Hassen

• Aaron Hassen – Website
• Aaron Hassen - Linkedin
• Aaron Hassen – YouTube

The key moments in this episode (as generated by my AI buddy, Capsho) are:

00:00:00 - Introduction,  00:02:10 - The Value of Deep Conversations, 00:06:17 - The Emotional Side of B2B Marketing, 00:09:00 - The Journey to Becoming a Marketer, 00:12:32 - Being a Servant Leader in Marketing, 00:17:19 - The Power of Community in Building Brands, 00:18:28 - The Importance of Being Human and Building Trust, 00:20:30 - Personal Branding for All, not Just Entrepreneurs, 00:21:59 - The Success of Personal Branding, 00:28:30 - Building Personal Brands to Go Beyond Products, 00:35:01 - The Importance of Brand Identity, 00:36:07 - The Danger of Losing Focus, 00:38:01 - Trust and Connection in Marketing, 00:40:03 - The Challenge of Writing Frequency, 00:41:48 - Trust and Connection as Megatrends, 00:51:54 - Importance of In-Person Communication, 00:52:47 - Pros and Cons of Different Communication Methods, 00:54:07 - Hotels as Meeting Spaces, 00:55:39 - Trust in Different Communication Channels, 01:02:05 - The Role of AI in Trust, 01:07:40 - The Value and Challenges of Having an Intern, 01:08:03 - Teaching Once and Letting Interns Progress, 01:08:29 - The Benefits of Having Highly Skilled Unpaid Workers, 01:09:02 - Using Freedom to Innovate, 01:09:41 - AI's Origin in Humanity and the Need for Improvement

Timestamped summary of this episode, also presented as generated by Capsho:

00:00:00 - Introduction, 

Dan Nestle introduces the podcast and his guest, Aaron Hassen, who is a marketer and a contributing member of the Rise community. They discuss the importance of community and what makes a good community.

00:02:10 - The Value of Deep Conversations, 

Dan and Aaron discuss the importance of deep conversations and the value they bring in contrast to short attention spans. They both appreciate the opportunity for meaningful discussions and learning in the podcast format.

00:06:17 - The Emotional Side of B2B Marketing, 

Aaron shares his experience transitioning from the military to the corporate world and how it shaped his perspective on marketing. He emphasizes the emotional aspect of B2B marketing and the importance of trust, connection, and empathy in building relationships with customers.

00:09:00 - The Journey to Becoming a Marketer, 

Aaron talks about his path from the military to starting his own business and eventually finding his passion for marketing. He highlights the lessons he learned from sales, such as the importance of listening deeply and understanding the emotional drivers behind purchasing decisions.

00:12:32 - Being a Servant Leader in Marketing, 

Dan and Aaron discuss the qualities of a good marketer who approaches their role as a servant leader. They emphasize the importance of embodying the brand, leading with a clear vision, inspiring change, and prioritizing the needs of the customer over self-interest.

00:17:19 - The Power of Community in Building Brands, 

Brands that facilitate communities are effective in connecting with customers and building trust. Live events and personal recommendations from trusted individuals are successful because people want to belong and connect.

00:18:28 - The Importance of Being Human and Building Trust, 

In an environment where trust is lacking, it is important for brands to be more human, empathetic, and authentic. Personal branding allows marketing to connect with customers in a more personal way and build trust.

00:20:30 - Personal Branding for All, not Just Entrepreneurs, 

Personal branding should not be limited to solopreneurs and entrepreneurs. Every executive and leader can benefit from developing their personal brand to survive in a changing industry and connect with customers.

00:21:59 - The Success of Personal Branding, 

Personal branding works when it is based on authenticity, trust, and connecting with the customer's core issues. Building a personal brand that resonates with people can lead to business success.

00:28:30 - Building Personal Brands to Go Beyond Products, 

Personal brands help companies become more than just a product or a logo. By connecting with people, sharing experiences, and developing emotions, brands can build trust and create a loyal customer base.

00:35:01 - The Importance of Brand Identity, 

The conversation begins with a discussion about the significance of brand identity and how wrong positioning or a loss of values can lead to the downfall of a brand. The analogy is made that brands are like people and can also experience a loss of direction or values.

00:36:07 - The Danger of Losing Focus, 

The conversation continues by highlighting the tendency for success to cause complacency and a loss of hunger, leading to a decline in quality. This phenomenon is compared to rock bands that lose their audience after deviating from their original sound and style.

00:38:01 - Trust and Connection in Marketing, 

The conversation shifts to the importance of trust and connection in marketing. The guest emphasizes the need to build trust and establish genuine connections with customers rather than resorting to aggressive advertising or deception. The concept of personal branding and regular content creation is also discussed.

00:40:03 - The Challenge of Writing Frequency, 

The host shares his struggle with writing frequency and the guest explains the benefits of regular content creation for developing thoughts and personal brand. The guest emphasizes the importance of learning from marketing experts and staying relevant in the industry.

00:41:48 - Trust and Connection as Megatrends, 

The guest identifies trust and connection as megatrends in the B2B market. Nonlinear buyer journeys, dark social, and event-led marketing are all driven by the need for trust and connection. The guest highlights the impact of recent global events on the desire for interpersonal

00:51:54 - Importance of In-Person Communication, 

In-person communication allows for both verbal and nonverbal cues, which are crucial for effective connection and understanding. Sangrim and GTM Partners are hosting road shows to facilitate face-to-face interactions and build relationships.

00:52:47 - Pros and Cons of Different Communication Methods, 

Different communication methods have their own advantages and disadvantages. While in-person interaction is unparalleled, verbal conversations over the phone can be more focused. Each type of communication serves a purpose and has its place.

00:54:07 - Hotels as Meeting Spaces, 

With the shift to remote work, companies have closed their offices, leading to a need for temporary meeting spaces. Hotels are investing in meeting spaces to accommodate these needs and capitalize on the demand for in-person collaboration and events.

00:55:39 - Trust in Different Communication Channels, 

Content marketing has emerged as a highly trusted channel, surprising many. Live events can also be considered a form of content marketing, especially when combined with lead generation mechanisms. Trust is crucial in building relationships and driving referrals.

01:02:05 - The Role of AI in Trust, 

AI has the potential to automate tasks and improve efficiency. However, human connection and personal branding remain essential. People want to connect with creators on a personal level, share experiences, and feel a sense of empathy, which AI cannot replicate. Differentiating through humanity is key.

01:07:40 - The Value and Challenges of Having an Intern, 

Interns are a double-edged sword. While they help with grunt work, they also require teaching and supervision. This extra work is worth it because it allows you to educate and start someone off on their career.

01:08:03 - Teaching Once and Letting Interns Progress, 

The goal is to teach an intern once and then let them move forward and improve on their own. This allows you to focus on what the intern can do next and frees you up to do other work.

01:08:29 - The Benefits of Having Highly Skilled Unpaid Workers, 

Having an intern who continually improves and becomes highly skilled can be valuable, even if they are unpaid. This allows you to delegate tasks and frees up your time for more important work.

01:09:02 - Using Freedom to Innovate, 

The freedom that comes from having an intern can allow you to innovate and find new ways to improve your work. It's important to take advantage of this freedom and constantly look for new opportunities.

01:09:41 - AI's Origin in Humanity and the Need for Improvement, 

The intelligence of AI originates from humans, so it's important to address issues of bias, racism, and how we treat each other. We have the opportunity to improve and use AI to our advantage, but it starts with improving ourselves and our values.

*Notes were created by humans, with help from Capsho, my preferred AI show notes assistant.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.