The Trending Communicator

What do corporate communications leaders know about the businesses they serve? Chances are they know quite a lot. They know the stories, the narratives, and the CEO's various points of view; they know the strategies, the values, and the culture; they know the audiences and stakeholders and (should) how to calm them in times of crisis; sometimes they know where all the bodies are buried and which closets hold the most skeletons. Their job is, fundamentally, to know things. But do they understand The Business? Do they understand balance sheets? Do they speak the language of financial performance? Do they grasp everything in the Annual Report? Some do, but many still don't. How can they become the trusted advisors their companies and clients need, especially in these challenging and changing times?

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle reconnects with David Albritton, the former Naval Public Affairs officer who built a stunning career in Communications before becoming an executive coach and strategic advisor. Currently Managing Director at CRA, David may be the only person to have made the leap from PR flack to global CEO (at least according to Dan), giving him a unique perspective on the need for communicators to develop business acumen and leadership skills to build thriving careers. Even in the age of AI.

As the world grapples with the implications of AI, misinformation, and shifting workplace dynamics, David shares his perspective on what it means to be a communicator today. He emphasizes the importance of building authentic relationships, understanding the business beyond the communications function, and the critical role of communicators as strategic advisors.

David also discusses his journey to becoming a board member at Embecta and the unique skills communicators can bring to the table in these roles. He highlights the necessity for communicators to be business partners first, leveraging their unique position to influence and drive organizational success.

He and Dan spend some time on the impact of AI on personal and professional development, revealing insights into how communicators can use these tools to enhance their understanding of business operations and improve their strategic influence. 

Whether you're a seasoned communications professional or just starting your career, this episode offers valuable lessons on leadership, the evolving role of communications, and the skills needed to thrive in today's fast-paced environment. Don't miss this opportunity to learn from one of the leading voices in strategic communications.

 

Listen in and hear about...

• The evolving role of communications professionals in the face of AI, misinformation, and declining institutional trust.
• Insights into the unique challenges and opportunities for communicators seeking board positions.
• The importance of building authentic relationships in hybrid and remote work environments.
• Strategies for communicators to become trusted business partners and influence organizational success.
• How generative AI can enhance personal career growth and understanding of business operations.
• The enduring qualities of effective leadership amidst technological and societal changes.

 

Notable Quotes

• "COVID changed the world in terms of what we accept in terms of how we engage with people. It all really comes down to relationships—who knows you, who do you know, do they trust you, do they have confidence in your abilities?" - David Albritton [10:34]

• "If we only think about our value proposition through the lens of communications, we are failing the organization and ourselves. We need to become business partners who by the way, do communications." - David Albritton [16:26]

• "If you aspire for greatness going forward, then how are you sharing your voice in that room when you have the opportunity? That's a critical skill for communicators that we don't develop." - David Albritton [21:05]

• "I've been that person who comes into the room and is reluctant to offer an opinion or advice because they're talking about finance now, and I don't want to get over my skis." - Dan Nestle [22:01]

• "The preparation you put in before you get to the meeting is going to make all the difference in the world because now you're educated, now you're confident, now you can raise your hand and ask a smart question." - David Albritton [28:29]

• "Managing what people are saying about you when you're not in the room is hugely important for career growth." - David Albritton [41:54]

• "I believe that corporate structure itself is obsolete and doesn't know it yet." - Dan Nestle [47:12]

  Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website

Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn

Dan Nestle | Twitter/X

David Albritton

• David Albritton | LinkedIn

CRA | Admired Leadership

ALEX, the Virtual Leadership Coach

 

Timestamped key moments from this episode (as generated by Fireflies.ai)

🎙️ Introduction and Background (00:00 - 06:46)

• Daniel Nestle introduces David Albritton as a guest
• David's background: Naval Academy graduate, former naval officer, communications career
• David's current roles: Managing Director at CRA, independent board director at Embecta

🏢 Corporate Structure and Communication (07:55 - 20:22)

• Discussion on the changing nature of work and communication
• Importance of building authentic relationships in remote/hybrid work environments
• Communicators need to be business partners first, communicators second
• Importance of understanding company financials and business operations

📊 Business Acumen for Communicators (21:29 - 32:15)

• Need for communicators to understand business basics
• Recommendation to develop relationships with Investor Relations
• Importance of preparation before meetings
• Discussion on using AI tools for learning and preparation

🤖 AI in Communication and Leadership (32:21 - 44:38)

• Potential of AI tools in enhancing communication and leadership skills
• Importance of human interpretation and nuance in communication
• Discussion on the changing expectations for communicators in companies

👥 Leadership Qualities and Relationships (44:38 - 54:27)

• Core leadership qualities remain unchanged despite technological advancements
• Importance of adaptability, accountability, and relationship-building in leadership
• Discussion on the challenges of building relationships in remote work environments

🔍 Leadership Behaviors and AI Coaching (55:35 - 01:06:27)

• Introduction of Alex, an AI-driven leadership coaching tool
• Based on study of 15,000 admired leaders over 40 years
• Focuses on 100 leadership behaviors across various areas
• Designed for personalized, situation-specific coaching

🔗 Closing Remarks and Resources (01:07:29 - 01:11:22)

• Importance of developing leadership skills for communicators
• Information on how to access David's newsletter and the Alex tool
• Emphasis on sharing valuable content to foster relationships

 

Timestamps for your convenience (as generated by Flowsend.ai)

0:00 David Albritton's Journey from Military to Board Director

6:34 Evolving Role of Communications Professionals

9:11 Empowering Communicators to Find Their Voice

10:34 Impact of Remote Work on Professional Relationships

13:17 The Role of Communications in Building Organizational Trust

16:26 Transitioning from Communicators to Business Partners

24:05 The Evolving Role of Communicators in Fast-Paced Industries

25:22 The Secret Sauce to Career Advancement

28:04 The Importance of Preparation in Meetings

30:39 Business Acumen for Strategic Communicators

39:36 The Human Element in Communication

54:25 The Essence of Leadership

57:28 The Importance of Authentic Relationships in Leadership

1:00:37 Strategic Relationship Building for Career Growth

1:02:38 Alex: A Leadership Tool with Personality

1:05:11 AI-Driven Leadership Coaching Tool 'Alex'

(Notes co-created by Human Dan and a variety of AI helpers, including Fireflies.ai and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Is it wrong to be future-focused in your career? At what price should you pursue innovation or push boundaries in your organization? Are you aware that there could be a growing urgency gap between you and your employer that may eventually be too wide to cross?

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with award-winning communications and marketing strategist, CX-UX-DX innovator, social media OG, and quite possibly one of the originators of the field of integrated marketing and communications as we know it, David Armano. A self-described "weird unicorn" currently serving a to-be-determined term as CEO of TBD, David shares his evolved perspective on the present and future of work in today's ever-changing career landscape. Together, he and Dan tackle the challenges and opportunities that arise from balancing future-focused innovation with present-day realities. David shares his unique insights on career transitions, the impact of generative AI on entry-level roles, and the implications of an increasingly multi-generational workforce.

Digging into what it means to be CEO of TBD, they address the cultural shifts redefining the workplace and how professionals can and should leverage AI to stay relevant - not to mention enhance productivity and creativity. Their conversation highlights the importance of adaptability, continuous learning, and the need for a historical perspective in understanding current trends and preparing for future challenges. From the rise of the contingent workforce to maintaining a healthy work-life balance, this episode offers valuable lessons for anyone looking to thrive in today's unpredictable and occasionally ageist environment.

Whether you're a seasoned executive or just starting your career, tune in to gain a deeper understanding of how to harness the power of technology and adapt to the changing demands of workers of all stripes. Don't miss this extremely relevant discussion that challenges conventional thinking and will inspire you to take control of your professional journey.

 

Listen in and hear about...

• Balancing future-focused thinking with present-day priorities in marketing and communications.
• Navigating career transitions and the concept of being the "CEO of TBD."
• The impact of generational differences on workplace dynamics, especially with Gen Z's unique work attitudes.
• AI's role in transforming entry-level tasks and its implications for the workforce.
• The evolving nature of work, including the rise of fractional roles and the contingent workforce.
• The importance of historical perspective in adapting to technological and societal changes.
• Opportunities for expanding roles in communications through AI and data-driven insights.

 

Notable Quotes

On Leadership Under Pressure:

"I've noticed the best leaders always do well under pressure. That's how you tell if you ever want to know the difference between, like, a really good leader and a not so good leader, watch them when things are not going well for them."

— David Armano [00:17:05 → 00:17:20]

On Navigating Career Changes:

"I think it's a healthy experience to go through, to go through a crisis of some kind in your life, and it sucks when it happens to you and you're suddenly without an employer or without a lifeline or without a safety net or whatever motivates you."

— Dan Nestle [00:17:54 → 00:18:10]

On Grief and Growth:

"Grief is both ugly and beautiful. It's ugly in the sense that it's painful... But there's a lot of gifts that do come with grieving."

— David Armano [00:20:59 → 00:22:20]

On Ageism in the Workplace:

"Age is actually sort of, you know, in most white collar cultures, it's something they kind of want to stay away from because of everything that we're talking about, because it's the one acceptable ism in the world of white collar work."

— David Armano [00:28:31 → 00:28:45]

On the Evolution of Work:

"The thing is, though, that there are so many, there's so much happening around us now that I think that the nature of work and the nature of this framework that almost all of corporate America at least functions within, which is that you age out, it's got to change, and it's changing in some places, but it really needs to change."

— Dan Nestle [00:31:38 → 00:31:54]

On AI and Entry-Level Work:

"AI does what likes, like someone coming into the workforce with no experience or very little experience. The tasks that you would give to those employees is what AI excels at."

— David Armano [00:35:20 → 00:35:30]

On the Future of Work:

"It's never been such a good time to be a CEO of TBD."

— David Armano [00:42:28 → 00:42:31]

On the Role of AI:

"One thing that AI is great at and should get better at is that is that first draft, that first draft of a business plan, that first draft of any written communication, that first draft of a data, to use your example, like first draft, the data analysis, it's really good at that."

— David Armano [01:00:14 → 01:00:30]

  Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website

Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn

Dan Nestle | Twitter/X

David Armano

• David Armano's Website

David Armano | LinkedIn

David By Design | David Armano on Substack

 

Timestamped key moments from this episode (as generated by Fireflies.ai)

🎙️ Introduction and Career Reflection (00:00 - 11:37)

• Daniel Nestle introduces the podcast and the guest, David Armano
• Discussion on the challenge of balancing future-thinking with present needs in communications
• David's background in integrated communications and marketing
• Reflection on David's first layoff experience

💼 Career Transitions and Workforce Trends (12:02 - 23:13)

• David's experience as 'CEO of TBD' after leaving a startup
• Discussion on the changing nature of work for Gen X professionals
• Exploration of hybrid work models and their impact on different generations
• Emphasis on the need for adaptability in the face of employment uncertainty

🔄 AI and the Future of Work (24:45 - 34:38)

• Analysis of AI's impact on entry-level work and its role as a virtual intern
• Discussion on the changing dynamics of hiring and team structures due to AI
• Exploration of how AI can enable professionals to expand their roles and skills

👥 Generational Dynamics in the Workplace (35:58 - 45:56)

• Examination of different generational attitudes towards work, especially Gen Z
• Discussion on the challenges of managing a multi-generational workforce
• Analysis of how hybrid work models affect different age groups differently

🚀 Evolving Roles in Communications and Marketing (46:05 - 58:01)

• Exploration of how AI is changing traditional roles in communications and marketing
• Discussion on the need for professionals to become 'spectacular' at their craft
• Analysis of how AI can help professionals expand their skillsets and roles

🔍 Historical Perspective and Future Outlook (59:15 - 01:06:56)

• Emphasis on the importance of learning from historical technological revolutions
• Discussion on balancing the potential benefits and societal impacts of new technologies
• Encouragement to view current changes through the lens of past transformations

🧠 Final Thoughts and Career Advice (01:07:54 - 01:12:58)

• Emphasis on being an observer and synthesizing information for decision-making
• Discussion on the importance of balancing detailed work with big-picture thinking
• Encouragement to be curious and inquisitive in navigating career changes

 

Timestamps for your convenience (as generated by Flowsend.ai)

0:00 Intro

5:28 David Armano's Career Journey and the Concept of TBD

7:32 Navigating Career Uncertainty as Gen X

12:01 The Role of Energy in Workshop Facilitation

15:05 Embracing Honesty During Layoffs

23:12 The Grief Cycle in Communications

26:13 Aging Out in the Corporate World

28:02 Ageism in White Collar Work

34:50 AI's Impact on Entry-Level Jobs

45:53 The Evolution of Employment Benefits

55:36 Rethinking Work in the Age of AI

57:49 The Rise of AI in Creative Industries

1:04:25 The Importance of Historical Perspective

1:06:53 Three Lenses of Time

(Notes co-created by Human Dan and a variety of AI helpers, including Fireflies.ai and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Let's face it, dealing with the future isn't something we can kick down the road. And at the intersection of people, technology, and brand, change is coming faster than ever before. We could blame Generative AI. Or we can embrace it and use it as an accelerant for our teams, employers, customers, and brands...

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle welcomes award-winning digital innovator, public speaker, and agency executive Rob Davis, the Chief Digital Innovation Officer at MSL, for an engaging conversation on the future of communications and marketing. Rob, a digital pioneer with a career spanning broadcast TV and leading agencies, shares his journey of invention and innovation (and his good fortune at attaining a role that Dan not-so-secretly covets).

From his early days at MTV, where he developed the world's first interactive game show, to his groundbreaking work at Ogilvy and now MSL Global, Rob has consistently been at the forefront of digital innovation. His accolades, including the Provoke Media Innovator 25 and two consecutive appearances in the PRWeek Dashboard 25, merely scratch the surface of his influence and expertise.

He and Dan explore how Generative AI is reshaping how we approach communications and marketing and what that means for brands. They cover the importance of understanding and utilizing AI prompts, the evolving nature of authority in content, and the critical need for brands to adapt to the rapid advancements in technology.

They address how AI impacts brand communication—shifting the dynamics between brands, media, and consumers. Rob stresses the need for brands to curate content that directly engages AI models to enhance discoverability and relevance.

Moving on to the future of work, Rob notes that AI is reshaping job paths in communications, offering opportunities to integrate new talent and innovative roles. He encourages professionals to embrace AI to remain competitive in the workforce.

Whether you're a communications novice or a seasoned professional, this episode offers lessons on embracing change, leveraging technology for enhanced communication strategies, and staying ahead in a fast-paced digital world. There's no doubt that AI will significantly impact the future of communications and marketing - listen in to hear what you can do about it for your future and the brands you represent.

 

Listen in and hear about...

•  How generative AI is revolutionizing communications and marketing.
•  Mastering AI prompts to boost content creation and engagement.
•  AI search algorithms reshaping content discoverability and relevance.
•  Workforce dynamics shifting with AI, creating new job opportunities.
•  Brands adapting content strategies to thrive in an AI-driven world.
•  Opportunities and challenges of AI and emerging technologies in business.

  Notable Quotes

On the Evolution of Technology and Career:

- "I came out of college at a time in the early nineties when everything was starting to change and everything I was passionate about, music, photography, video, storytelling, all individual passions, all of a sudden had a place to go, and I've just kind of let the industry take me along."

— Rob Davis [00:03:42 → 00:04:02]

On the Thrill of Innovation:

- "The thrill of that. It's funny, it wasn't an ego building thrill. It was a hunger building thrill. I said, I got to find more of this. Where does this come from? How do I tap into this bucket over and over again? And that's kind of what's driven me all along."

— Rob Davis [00:06:24 → 00:06:42]

On the Acceleration of Technology:

- "I look at the years between advances from that era and it's like those advances are happening in months, if not weeks."

— Rob Davis [00:09:31 → 00:09:47]

On the Power of AI and Prompting:

- "You can go to chat GPT the first time and you're probably going to treat it like this is a fortune telling arcade game. Zoltan. Zoltar, you're asking a question and you're going to get an answer, and as you said, you say, oh, that's cool, and you're going to walk away without realizing that you can start a chain of prompts that's going to develop something much deeper than that."

— Rob Davis [00:16:38 → 00:16:58]

On the Creativity in AI:

- "You are creating every prompt you write, no matter how basic or complex it is, are creating something. And I think that that's part of the adrenaline rush for me."

— Rob Davis [00:21:01 → 00:21:14]

On the Future of Content Creation:

- "We don't have to wait. We can do more than we can possibly imagine right now, and it's only going to get better, but we don't have to wait for the next piece. We can revolutionize almost everything that we're doing right now."

— Rob Davis [00:22:14 → 00:22:31]

On the Changing Nature of Authority in Content:

- "The judge of authority is the consumer. So if the content, to your point, is not appealing to the consumer, it's not in their vernacular, it's not something that they feel ready to consume, they're not going to interact with it, and it is not going to get that algorithmic importer of authoritative."

— Rob Davis [00:41:08 → 00:41:34]

On the Power Shift in Content Creation:

- "Because the consumer is now, or the customer…is getting more and more answers from AI, from generative AI. Well, now that puts a little bit more power in the hands of the brands, doesn't it?"

— Dan Nestle [00:45:49 → 00:46:09]

On the Future of Communication:

- "The roles that are going to be created, the tasks that are going to be created are very different. It's going to create a whole bundle of new tasks. Those new tasks will have to be apportioned to somebody which become new jobs also."

— Dan Nestle [00:54:27 → 00:54:59]

  Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website

Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn

Dan Nestle | Twitter/X

Rob Davis

• Rob Davis's Website

Rob Davis | LinkedIn

 

Timestamped key moments from this episode (as generated by Fireflies.ai)

🎙️ Introduction and Background (00:00 - 09:12)

• Dan Nestle introduces himself as the host of the Trending Communicator podcast
• Guest Rob Davis is introduced as Chief Digital Innovation Officer at MSL Global
• Rob's career spans from broadcast TV to leading agencies
• Rob's accomplishments include Provoke Media Innovator 25 and PR Week Dashboard 25
• Rob shares his early career experiences, including work at MTV and developing the first interactive TV game show

🚀 Digital Innovation and AI (09:18 - 14:40)

• Rob discusses the rapid acceleration of technology advancements
• Ethan Mollick's video on LinkedIn showcasing AI recreating the game Doom
• Discussion on the need for proper AI prompting and understanding LLMs
• Critique of PR professionals' lack of understanding in AI prompting

💡 AI in Communications and Marketing (16:17 - 28:44)

• Importance of understanding how to use AI tools effectively
• Discussion on the power of prompts and the creative thinking involved
• Custom GPTs and their potential in various functions
• The changing nature of authority in content creation due to AI

🎯 Brand Communication and AI (30:24 - 42:11)

• Impact of AI on brand discoverability and content relevance
• Importance of creating content that influences AI models
• Shift in power dynamics between brands, media, and consumers
• Need for brands to become their own publishers and create the right kind of content

👥 Career Paths and AI (43:15 - 56:10)

• Discussion on how AI is changing career paths in communications and marketing
• Opportunity to reshape the workforce and bring in new talent
• Importance of embracing AI to remain valuable in the job market
• Potential for new roles and tasks created by AI and emerging technologies

🔮 Future Outlook and Closing Remarks (57:30 - 01:01:18)

• Mention of other emerging technologies like NFTs, metaverse, and near-field communication
• Rob's optimism about the future of connecting with audiences
• Importance of capitalizing on audience behaviors and trends
• Rob's contact information and social media presence

Timestamps for your convenience (as generated by Flowsend.ai)

0:00 Intro

2:07 Rob Davis' Journey in Digital Innovation

3:42 The Evolution of Media and Technology

5:08 Developing the World's First Home Play Game Show

6:24 Pioneering Digital Content at Ogilvy

9:58 AI's Rapid Evolution and Its Impact

16:38 The Power of the Prompt

18:24 Challenges in AI Adoption in PR and Communications

22:31 The Evolution of Custom GPTs

30:41 The Evolution of Media Relations

42:09 AI's Impact on Discoverability and Content Creation

43:15 The Shift in Power Dynamics in Marketing

49:35 AI's Impact on the Workforce

52:22 Abundance Mentality in Business

53:57 Brands' Procrastination on AI Integration

57:02 Generative AI and Future Skills

(Notes co-created by Human Dan and a variety of AI helpers, including Fireflies.ai and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

All of us know we're in an age of disruption. If you want to thrive and grow as a communicator or marketer, it's not AI you have to worry about. What should keep you up at night is the prospect of succumbing to the Dull. AI can do dull better than you can. You have to flee the dull and be bold. You have to be audacious.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle finally, after countless name drops, references, and bold claims to be friends with a particular marketing legend, puts his money where his mouth is and welcomes to the show his mentor, confidant, friend, and arguably his man crush, the one and only Mark Schaefer.

After Dan perpetrates some gushing, he and Mark go straight into the chaotic "Now" and the need for a clear vision of the future. They talk about the impact of AI on communications and marketing, and Mark offers his sobering perspective: yes, AI can be terrifying for anyone creating content because it's "good enough" to generate boring, compliant corporate messaging. He says that AI will "unleash a pandemic of dull" - and if we want to succeed in the future, we'll need to be bold, crazy, and audacious. He goes on to say that the result could be spectacular work by those of us who can rise above the dull.

They also get into the significance of personal branding, both internally within companies and externally. Mark reinforces the idea that being Known and trusted, especially in an era where deepfakes and misinformation are rampant, is critical to future success.

Throughout the episode, Dan and Mark explore the challenges and opportunities presented by technological advancements, urging communicators to embrace bold, audacious strategies to stay relevant. The conversation concludes with remarks about Mark's upcoming book, tentatively titled "Audacious: A Rebel's Guide to Disruptive Marketing," set to release in January.

Listen in and hear about...

• Mark's new book!
• How marketing and communications are merging in today's chaotic landscape.
• AI's transformative role in marketing and communication strategies.
• The importance of authenticity and grit in content creation.
• AI's impact on entry-level jobs and the future of onboarding new talent.
• Why building a personal brand within organizations is crucial for career growth.
• Challenges that large companies face in adapting to rapid cultural and technological changes.
• The necessity of community and collaboration to stay updated with fast-paced industry trends.

  Notable Quotes  

On the Role of Marketing in Companies:

- "I think in this day and age, almost everybody's in marketing, everybody in your company that influences your conversation with your customer, your reputation with your customer." — Mark Schaefer [00:04:37 → 00:04:47]

On the Intersection of Marketing and Communications:

- " We're talking about reaching out to audiences and creating that market, creating a market either for your goods or for your ideas or for your message and all the above." — Dan Nestle [00:05:53 → 00:06:09]

On the Impact of AI on Jobs:

- "I think it will eliminate a lot of lower level jobs and it'll eliminate, you know, some entry level jobs." — Mark Schaefer [00:11:19 → 00:11:27]

On the Future of Content Creation:

- "In the next twelve months, you'll be able to make a full length motion picture on your laptop computer, including the script and the, you know, the dialogue and the score and the art and everything you would want." — Mark Schaefer [00:14:55 → 00:15:11]

On Authenticity in Marketing:

- "The key to creating a video that connects on an emotional level is to leave mistakes in. Maybe some of the video is a little blurry, maybe a little of the audio is a little scratchy, but it makes you feel like you're right there." — Mark Schaefer [00:17:28 → 00:17:40]

On the Pandemic of Dull:

- "AI is going to be very capable. That's also going to unleash this pandemic of dull. And every communicator out there is going to be fighting against this pandemic of dull." — Mark Schaefer [00:26:14 → 00:26:27]

On the Future of Corporate Content:

- "If you're writing content that's easily approved by legal, you're going to be gone. You've got to start reaching into more communications that can't be ignored, that cannot be commoditized." — Mark Schaefer [00:26:14 → 00:26:27]

On the Role of Personal Branding:

- "Anybody, any employee, any person anywhere should be building their own personal brand. And I think people are confused. They think, oh, that means I want to be solo and be on my own. Not necessarily, but if somebody is in a company and doesn't have the influence, they don't have a personal brand." — Dan Nestle [00:47:37 → 00:47:55]

On the Role of Community in Staying Relevant:

- "I cannot be relevant without a community behind me in our rise community. We have people from all around the world helping each other, nurturing each other, talking about, this works. This doesn't, I tried this, use this." — Mark Schaefer [01:04:41 → 01:05:00]

On the Importance of Grit and Authenticity:

- "Grit, a little crazy and a lot of audacity." — Mark Schaefer [01:06:51 → 01:06:54]

On the Importance of Community:

- "I can with 1000% certainty say that my understanding of AI and my joy of it is absolutely due to my involvement with the rise community and just that whole process of helping to build that community and being part of it." — Dan Nestle [01:05:00 → 01:05:15]

  Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website

Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn

Dan Nestle | Twitter/X

Mark Schaefer

• Mark Schaefer's Website

Mark Schaefer's {grow} Blog

The Marketing Companion Podcast (on Apple Podcasts)

Mark Schaefer's Books on Amazon

Mark Schaefer | LinkedIn

 

Timestamped key moments from this episode (as generated by Fireflies.ai)

🎙️ Introduction and Personal Brand (00:00 - 15:00)

• Daniel Nestle introduces Mark Schaefer as a marketing expert and communicator
• Mark emphasizes the importance of personal brand in the age of AI
• Discussion on the blurring lines between marketing and communications
• Mark highlights the need for authenticity and 'grit' in content creation

🤖 AI and Content Creation (15:00 - 30:00)

• Exploration of AI's impact on lower-level jobs in marketing and communications
• Mark discusses the need for human creativity and 'crazy' ideas to stand out
• Emphasis on the importance of authenticity in a world of AI-generated content
• Discussion on the future of corporate communication in the age of AI

🏢 Corporate Culture and Innovation (30:00 - 45:00)

• Mark talks about the challenges of innovation in large corporations
• Discussion on the importance of internal personal branding
• Emphasis on the need for quick experimentation and 'pilots' in companies
• Mark introduces his upcoming book 'Audacious' on disruptive marketing

🌐 Future of Marketing and Communications (45:00 - 60:00)

• Discussion on the importance of community in staying relevant
• Mark emphasizes the need for human touch in marketing strategies
• Talk about the rise of AI tools and their impact on content verification
• Mark's prediction: 'The most human company wins'

🎬 Wrap-up and Resources (60:00 - 01:07:06)

• Daniel provides information on Mark's blog and podcast
• Discussion on the RISE community and its benefits
• Mark's final thoughts on the importance of humanity in business

(Notes co-created by Human Dan and a variety of AI helpers, including Fireflies.ai and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Is the Communications function, as many in our profession claim, an organization's nerve center? Where messages and stories are the electric impulses that cause synapses to fire, muscles to move, and hearts to beat? Or is this understating the case? Are we missing the bigger picture?

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle welcomes back thought leader, educator, and dear friend Ethan McCarty, the CEO of Integral. Known for his innovative approach to employee experience and communications technology, Ethan has been a guiding force in shaping how organizations communicate internally and externally. while devoting nearly as much time to giving back to the profession as he has spent building his successful agency. 

Dan and Ethan have a wide-ranging conversation that touches on the essence of effective communication within organizations, and the critical impact of communications on corporate health. They explore Ethan's approach to viewing employees as public: By treating employees with the same strategic importance as external audiences, companies can foster a more engaged and productive workforce. 

The discussion also delves into the impact of AI and CommsTech on the future of corporate communications. Ethan shares his thoughts on how technology can enhance communication strategies, streamline operations, and create a more dynamic corporate environment. He emphasizes the importance of ethical frameworks and the need for organizations to invest in listening and understanding their employees' needs and perspectives.

Ethan's insights are not just theoretical; they are grounded in practical experience and real-world applications. He discusses the challenges and opportunities that come with leading a communications agency and offers valuable advice for both seasoned professionals and those new to the field. From the importance of continuous learning and adaptation to the role of strategic intelligence in communications, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways.

Tune in to learn how you can elevate your communication efforts, embrace technological advancements, and create a more engaged and effective workforce.

Listen in and hear about...

• The influence of key mentors and colleagues on professional growth.
• The importance of employee experience in modern communications.
• How AI and technology are reshaping content creation and workflows.
• The role of internal communications in shaping organizational culture.
• The impact of political and social issues on workplace dynamics.
• Strategies for integrating employee feedback into business decisions.
• The evolving expectations of employees in a personalized work environment.

  Notable Quotes   "Thinking of employees as a public is... of great strategic value." — Ethan McCarty [00:07:07 → 00:07:10]

"If you can optimize that set of relations at work for strategic value and for positive experiences for the humans involved, that feels like a lot of good outcomes." — Ethan McCarty [00:07:39 → 00:07:50]

"Employees have much more agency and voice and ability to affect reputation and the ability to affect customer outcomes." — Ethan McCarty [00:10:43 → 00:10:50]

"The way you communicate constitutes the entity." — Ethan McCarty [00:15:06 → 00:15:10]

"Comms is like the nerve center of a company, and I think it is. But now it sounds, from what you're saying, it's more like the circulatory system." — Dan Nestle [00:29:31 → 00:29:39]

"The sophistication of what's available is light years ahead of where we were five years ago." — Ethan McCarty [00:31:18 → 00:31:24]

"Make your friends before you need your friends, my friends." — Ethan McCarty [01:02:28 → 01:02:32]

"If you do not respect my rights and I'm a high performing employee in an environment where there is 4% unemployment, what do you think I'm gonna do? I'll probably get a raise." — Ethan McCarty [01:05:00 → 01:05:10]

  Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website

Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn

Dan Nestle | Twitter/X

Ethan McCarty

• Integral - Employee Experience Agency

Ethan McCarty | LinkedIn

Read Ethan in Forbes: When Communications Teams Become The Organization

 

Timestamped key moments from this episode (as generated by Fireflies.ai)

🎙️ Introduction and Background (00:00 - 06:32)

• Daniel Nestle introduces Ethan McCarty as a leading voice in communications
• Ethan is CEO of Integral, an employee experience agency
• Discussion on the influence of mentors and colleagues in professional development

🏢 Integral and Employee Experience (06:32 - 16:51)

• Ethan explains Integral's focus on employees as a public
• Emphasis on managing relationships with employees intentionally
• Discussion on the importance of culture in organizational change
• Exploration of Conway's law and constitutive theory of communications

🔄 Organizational Communication Design (16:54 - 29:31)

• Analysis of how communication configuration affects company identity and products
• Importance of redesigning internal communications teams for better employee experience
• Discussion on the need for more robust sensing and listening in organizations

💡 Intelligence and Strategy in Communications (29:32 - 36:39)

• Importance of communications teams as sources of business intelligence
• Need for upskilling and technology adoption in communication roles
• Challenges in transforming communication teams into business intelligence units

👥 Value of Communication Professionals (37:34 - 45:06)

• Discussion on the evolving role of communication professionals
• Importance of being a strategic advisor and intelligence gatherer
• Value of relationship-building and understanding in communication roles

🚀 Future of Communications and Junior Staff (45:27 - 58:54)

• Debate on the future need for junior staff in communications
• Emphasis on self-enabled, experimental, and entrepreneurial employees
• Discussion on the changing skill sets required in the communications industry

🗳️ Political Issues in the Workplace (58:54 - 01:07:12)

• Upcoming global elections and their impact on workplace communications
• Challenges of managing political discussions in the workplace
• Importance of creating guidelines for discussing social issues at work

 

(Notes co-created by Humans and a variety of AI helpers, including Fireflies.ai and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Let's face it: it's getting worse out there.

Trust in institutions, brands, and even people seems to be spiraling ever downward.  What can we, as communicators, do to break this cycle, protect our brands, and build a culture of trust? 

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle once again travels into the dark world of misinformation and disinformation, this time with Lisa Kaplan, founder and CEO of Alethea, to uncover the strategies and technologies that can help you identify and mitigate misinformation and disinformation.

Lisa, a recognized leader in PR and digital risk mitigation, shares her journey from Senate campaign staffer to founder of a company that recently secured $20 million in Series B funding. Her extensive experience in policy, communications, and national security provides a unique perspective on the challenges and solutions in combating online threats.

Dan and Lisa explore the critical role of early detection in managing online risks and the importance of proactive measures to safeguard brands and organizations. They discuss how Alethea's technology platform identifies emerging narratives, assesses their potential impact, and offers actionable insights to mitigate risks before they escalate. Lisa emphasizes the need for ethical practices in information dissemination and the role of AI in enhancing strategic communication efforts.

The conversation also touches on the broader implications of misinformation, including its impact on corporate culture and employee engagement. Lisa shares practical advice on how organizations can leverage their internal communications to build a resilient culture of trust, even in the face of digital threats. They also discuss the importance of staying true to core values and maintaining consistent messaging to preserve credibility and trust.

This episode is a must-listen for communicators, marketers, and anyone interested in the intersection of technology, security, and public relations. Gain valuable insights from Lisa Kaplan on effectively combating digital threats and fostering a culture of trust within your organization. Join us for a thought-provoking discussion that can help you be a champion of truth and trust for your organization.

Listen in and hear about...

• The escalating trust crisis in media and its impact on public relations and brand defense strategies
• Roles of PR professionals in combating misinformation and disinformation to protect brands and clients
• The founding and mission of Alethea, a company specializing in online risk mitigation and its approach to managing digital threats
• How recent political and social events influence corporate brand management and the necessity for proactive digital defense strategies
• Why the evolution of communication strategies from traditional methods to digital platforms requires rapid and informed responses to misinformation
• The importance of early detection in managing online risks and the benefits of technology in identifying potential threats before they escalate
• Effective strategies for leveraging employee communications and internal culture to reinforce brand integrity and manage crisis communication

Notable Quotes  

On the Reality of Digital Threats:

"The reality is, and what I tell everybody is like, listen, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And so, welcome to our digital environment."

— Lisa Kaplan [00:04:06 → 00:04:16]

On the Importance of Early Detection:

"Our role is to be able to identify these risks and threats early and be able to give you those insights and great recommendations for what you can actually do about it, so that you're finding stuff out when it's a level one, not a level ten."

Lisa Kaplan [00:05:07 → 00:05:22]

On the Evolution of Influence Operations:

"What started as a government tactic is now anybody can do it situation. So we do see more than just state actors. We see these criminal groups, we see these lone individual operators."

Lisa Kaplan [00:15:59 → 00:16:13]

On the Role of Fact-Checking:

"A fact check alone doesn't work. Oftentimes you have to... It worked in that specific instance because it was a narrative caught early that was new, and because they were able to leverage fact checkers who had a very high following to get that information out early, that the narrative was false altogether."

Lisa Kaplan [00:17:13 → 00:17:34]

On the Challenge of Disinformation:

"Disinformation targets our fear, our anxieties, our uncertainties... And so, because I was scared, because there was an information vacuum, which is the consistent area where disinformation really thrives... I fell for it."

— Lisa Kaplan [00:23:33 → 00:23:54]

On the Role of Employees in Communication:

"You want your employees being the one saying, yes, this is a great place to work. You don't want to be the one coming out saying, I promise this is great. Like, people aren't going to trust management on that."

— Lisa Kaplan [00:28:01 → 00:28:15]

On the Importance of Consistency:

"My advice is always, don't flip flop. Know where you stand. If it's core to your business to say something, say something."

— Lisa Kaplan [00:30:35 → 00:30:45]

On the Role of Technology in Communication:

"Embrace technology and know how it works... It's automating the grunt work of our jobs. It's automating. It's being able to rapidly deploy counter messaging."

— Lisa Kaplan [00:46:41 → 00:46:55]

On the Ethical Use of AI:

"It is perfectly appropriate to use AI or an LLM to potentially play around with drafting a response. Make it the first draft. It's way faster. That's totally fine. What you also have to know, though, is that you are assuming the responsibility of whatever goes out the door."

— Lisa Kaplan [00:55:29 → 00:55:49]

On Building Trust:

"The best thing you can do is invest in trust. It's a lot easier to protect a strong amount of trust than to try to build trust when no one trusts you."

— Lisa Kaplan [00:52:14 → 00:52:24]

On the Power of Conversation:

"Conversation is the communicator's superpower."

— Dan Nestle [00:48:33 → 00:48:56]

On the Importance of LinkedIn:

- "LinkedIn is a major center for especially B2B, but certainly for person-to-person contact. And in my humble opinion, it is the most solid of all business platforms and the most real, like the most authentic for business people."

— Dan Nestle [00:51:02 → 00:51:32]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website

Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn

Dan Nestle | Twitter/X

Lisa Kaplan

• Alethea - Online Risk Mitigation Technology

Lisa Kaplan | LinkedIn

Lisa Kaplan | Twitter/X

Timestamped key moments from this episode (as generated by Fireflies.ai)

🎙️ Introduction and Trust Crisis (00:00 - 11:25)

• Dan Nestle introduces the podcast and discusses the ongoing trust crisis
• Lisa Kaplan, founder and CEO of Alethea, is introduced as the guest
• Alethea is an online risk mitigation technology company
• Lisa's background includes working with US legislators, think tanks, and National Laboratories
• Alethea detects and mitigates instances of online risks for organizations

🔍 Online Risk Detection and Mitigation (11:53 - 18:52)

• Alethea's platform uses boolean logic and machine learning models
• The platform identifies coordinated behavior rather than focusing on content
• Early detection of threats is crucial for effective risk management
• Fact-checking alone is not sufficient in combating misinformation
• Peer-to-peer communication is more effective in deradicalization efforts

🌐 Disinformation and Corporate Strategy (20:05 - 27:08)

• Companies need to consider their stance on emotionally charged issues
• Internal communication is crucial, but every internal communication is potentially external
• Companies should stay true to their core values and messaging
• Employees can be valuable assets in combating misinformation
• Companies should invest in culture to foster positive employee communication

📊 Predictive Analysis and Communication Skills (28:23 - 42:59)

• Early detection of potential risks is crucial for effective crisis management
• Communicators need to understand technology and embrace new tools
• Communication is now interactive and conversation-based
• Every interaction is an opportunity for person-to-person communication
• Deepfakes and other technological risks are emerging challenges

💬 Building Trust and Leveraging Social Media (43:32 - 52:09)

• Conversation is a key skill for communicators
• LinkedIn is a valuable platform for business communication
• Executives should actively engage in social media conversations
• Building trust is easier than trying to regain it during a crisis
• Authentic communication from executives is more effective than outsourced content

🤖 AI in Communication and Ethical Considerations (52:14 - 58:39)

• AI can be used ethically to draft responses and automate workflows
• Human expertise is crucial in the AI loop
• AI should not be used to create bot networks or engage in unethical practices
• Communicators should use AI as a tool to enhance their work, not replace human judgment

(Notes co-created by Humans and a variety of AI helpers, including Fireflies.ai and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

For years, we've been talking about upgrading the communications function - or at least modernizing it, bringing comms into parity with their Marketing colleagues. Embracing technology is the most visible part of this journey. But what good is technology - project management tools, social media management tools, intelligence and analytics software, email automation, and now Generative AI - without the people to drive it? You can't conquer the frontier of CommsTech without capable pioneers.   In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle reconnects with award-winning strategic communications leader and all-around CommsTech pioneer Megan DiSciullo, Senior Managing Director of US and Mexico Communications for PwC. Megan shares her extensive experience in communications, her journey from Edelman to PwC, and her insights on ethically integrating technology, particularly Generative AI, into corporate communications.

Join us as Megan shares her journey from the ground up in the world of strategic communications as she and Dan explore the transformative role of generative AI and CommsTech in today's corporate landscape. From her early days at Edelman to her ever-expanding remit at PwC, Megan has consistently been at the forefront of innovation, advocating for the ethical use of AI while enhancing strategic communications across the board.

This episode delves deep into how AI is reshaping the way we think about internal and external communications, the importance of ethical frameworks, and the potential of AI to streamline operations and create a more dynamic corporate environment. Megan's insights provide invaluable lessons on embracing change, leveraging technology for enhanced communication strategies, following an ethics-first approach, and AI's critical role in driving corporate narratives forward.

Whether you're a communications novice or a seasoned professional, this episode offers a treasure of knowledge and inspiration, showcasing how embracing technological advancements can significantly elevate your strategic communication efforts. Don't miss out on this insightful exploration of AI's impact on the future of corporate communications and how you can be part of this evolution in the industry.

Listen in and hear about...

• The evolving role of communicators in shaping internal culture and driving organizational change
• Strategies for integrating AI into corporate communications and the importance of secure, enterprise-specific tools
• How ethical considerations and policy development are important in AI deployment to maintain trust and data security
• AI's impact on productivity and efficiency, freeing up communicators to focus on higher-level strategic activities
• The necessity for ongoing learning and adaptation within the communications field to leverage new technologies like AI
• The collaborative approach required to implement AI across various organizational functions effectively
• The potential of AI to democratize learning and innovation within organizations, fostering an environment of continuous improvement and engagement

 Notable Quotes   On the Value of Kindness in Business:

"One of my mentors told me early on, Megan, always be direct, so people know where you stand and there's no misinterpretation. But always be kind, because you never know when you will need people or just, this is a business of teaming. And so, you know, people want to work with people who are kind."

— Megan DiSciullo [00:08:43 → 00:09:05]

On the Role of Data in Communications:

"Data is the ultimate neutralizer. Whether the data is coming from the comms team, the marketing team, or from our client insights team. The data is telling us key insights about our audience that we need to know."

— Megan DiSciullo [00:27:19 → 00:27:35]

On the Importance of Change Management:

"It makes for sometimes an uphill battle. And that's where change management culture change really needs to happen. And there's no amount of money, I think, that you can put down on the value of pilots and tests and stuff to kind of use that data and sort of show examples and gain permission and gain buy in over time."

— Dan Nestle [00:31:15 → 00:31:35]

On the Importance of Change Management:

"If you put out, even if it's a tech product that's in the 1.0 version and it's not a good experience, you've lost people. So it doesn't matter how many times you communicate about it if the experience isn't great, especially in today's world where people have little appetite and little patience."

— Megan DiSciullo [00:35:22 → 00:35:42]

On the Role of AI in Enhancing Productivity:

"Once you understand, okay, all prompting, and this is what it is, and this is what it means. That's that kind of first initial wall to get through with the user with the AI partner. And once they get through that wall, then it's about, oh, my goodness, I'm going to save all this time."

— Dan Nestle [00:45:39 → 00:46:00]

On the Future of AI in Communications:

"I see Gen AI, at least in its current function and form, to be a productivity and efficiency tool. There is still a need for really great counsel, really great crisis management skills, really great relationship building skills, really great dot connecting skills."

— Megan DiSciullo [00:48:39 → 00:48:55]

On the Future of Communications:

"AI is an enabler with that, of course, because a lot of the fundamental tasks that people associate with typical traditional comms can be essentially handed over to, at least at the first level, to these brilliant, co creative, co intelligent platforms, and then brought back to the human to make sure that it's all good to go, but it saves a lot of time, much more productive."

— Dan Nestle [01:02:13 → 01:02:35]

On the Evolution of the Communications Profession:

"I started faxing press releases. I am so far from a fax machine and loving it. But I'm now learning the next skill, and in ten years, I'm going to learn something that we haven't even started to think about. And that is the beauty of this profession."

— Megan DiSciullo [01:04:47 → 01:05:00] 

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website

Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn

Dan Nestle | Twitter

Megan DiSciullo

• Megan DiSciullo | LinkedIn

Timestamped key moments from this episode (as generated by Flowsend.ai)

00:00:01: Introduction and Welcome

00:01:41: Megan DiSciullo Joins the Conversation

00:02:19: Early Career and First Impressions

00:03:21: Transition from Edelman to PwC

00:04:22: Predictive Analytics Project

00:05:25: First Meeting with Megan

00:06:08: Megan's Reaction to Predictive Analytics

00:08:43: Megan's Philosophy on Kindness and Teaming

00:10:16: Importance of Kindness in Business

00:11:06: Megan's Career Journey

00:12:07: Early Interest in Purpose and Ethics

00:13:09: Work with Business Roundtable Post-Katrina

00:14:10: Transition to PwC and Building Internal Change

00:15:12: Merging Internal and External Communications

00:16:14: Introduction to Comtech

00:17:15: Commtech vs. Commstech

00:19:41: Data and Analytics in Communications

00:21:13: Building the Tech Stack

00:22:15: Embedding Technology into Workflows

00:23:17: Audience-Centric Approach

00:24:05: Partnership Between Marketing and Communications

00:27:19: Navigating Conflicts Between Teams

00:30:13: Change Management and Culture Change

00:32:16: Integrating Marketing and Communications

00:33:22: Expanding Teams and Data Science

00:35:26: Importance of Pilots and Feedback

00:37:33: AI Implementation and Upskilling

00:39:21: Team Effort in AI Training

00:40:31: Hands-On Training and Gamification

00:42:02: Democratization of Learning

00:43:03: Bespoke Tools for Marketing and Comms

00:45:07: Mass Personalization with GenAI

00:47:12: Empowering Teams with AI

00:48:39: Encouraging Innovation and Experimentation

00:50:49: Framing AI as a Co-Intelligence

00:54:46: Ethical Implications of AI

00:57:02: Building Trust in AI

00:59:15: Transparency and Validation in AI

01:00:43: Future Focus for Communicators

01:02:13: Role of Communicators in Culture Building

01:03:53: Embracing Curiosity and Learning

01:04:48: Final Thoughts and Farewell

 

 

(Notes co-created by Humans and a variety of AI helpers, including Fireflies.ai and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

When your brand, company, country, or even you are the target of social media attacks, what if you can't even identify the source of the problem? What if the attackers aren't real people? What if the entire attack is a complete lie, disinformation spread by bad actors with thousands, or millions, of fake accounts at their disposal? How do you uncover the good, the bad, and the fake online?   In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle is joined by seasoned PR and marketing expert Rafi Mendelsohn, VP of Marketing at Cyabra, a premier media monitoring platform specializing in the detection, identification, and mitigation of malicious actors, bots, bot networks, and generative AI content. Together, they unravel the complexities of the trust crisis exacerbated by advanced technologies like AI and bot networks. The conversation starts with a deep dive into the pervasive trust issues affecting our institutions and the role of technology in amplifying misinformation and disinformation. With his extensive background in agency and in-house roles across various markets, Rafi brings a unique perspective on how malicious actors use digital platforms to manipulate public discourse. Dan and Rafi explore the implications of these practices for communicators and marketers. They discuss the challenges of distinguishing between genuine and artificial interactions online and the impact of these interactions on corporate reputation and brand trust. Rafi shares insights into the mechanics of bot networks and how they are not just limited to political arenas but are pervasive across all sectors, influencing everything from consumer behavior to stock prices. He explains the sophisticated methods these networks use to appear legitimate and the difficulties this presents in identifying and combating them. Their conversation also covers practical strategies for organizations to protect themselves, emphasizing the importance of advanced media monitoring and the need for a proactive rather than reactive approach to digital threats. Rafi advocates for a blend of technology and traditional communication strategies to effectively manage and mitigate the risks associated with digital misinformation, empowering listeners with actionable advice. Listeners will gain a comprehensive understanding of the landscape of digital misinformation, the tools available to tackle it, and how to strategically position their communications in an increasingly complex digital world. Whether you're a communications professional, a marketer, or simply interested in the impact of technology on public discourse, this episode offers valuable insights and actionable advice.   Listen in and hear about...

• The pervasive trust crisis in modern institutions and the role of misinformation and disinformation.
• The impact of AI and technology on the spread of false information through bots and fake accounts.
• Strategies for communicators and marketers to identify and combat misinformation in their fields.
• The challenges and responsibilities of PR and marketing professionals in managing brand reputation amidst misinformation.
• The evolution of malicious actors using sophisticated AI tools to create and spread disinformation.
• Practical steps and tools for organizations to detect and mitigate the effects of disinformation on their brands.
• Future trends in communication strategies to handle emerging technologies and misinformation threats effectively.

  Notable Quotes   On the Trust Crisis: "We're in the thick of an unprecedented trust crisis. Trust in our institutions, especially government, education, and media, is in freefall. Misinformation and disinformation are everywhere, and it's only getting worse." — Dan Nestle [00:01:00 → 00:01:20] On the Role of AI in Social Media: "AI has enabled bad actors to disseminate bad information at scale through deepfakes, AI-enabled content farms, and bots. This is the world we're contending with." — Dan Nestle [00:01:20 → 00:01:30] On the Role of Communicators: "As communicators and marketers, we're often on the front lines of this information-driven trust crisis. We have to tell stories, protect our clients and companies, and ensure that the information we share is trustworthy." — Dan Nestle [00:04:00 → 00:04:20] On the Challenges of Modern Communication: "We don't know who we're talking to, and we don't know whether we're telling the right stories or if we have the right facts on our side. The whole thing has been corrupted over the last decade or so." — Dan Nestle [00:04:10 → 00:04:20] Rafi Mendelsohn On the Role of Bots in Social Media: "From our research, the average conversation across social media has around four to seven percent of fake accounts. When we start to see certain conversations, whether it's political, wartime, or around brands, and those numbers are significantly higher, that's when we need to take a pause and understand exactly what's going on." — Rafi Mendelsohn [00:19:01 → 00:19:20] On the Impact of Fake Accounts on Brands: "Brands can find themselves in hot water, not just because of something they've done, but purely by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Fake accounts can escalate a situation to the point that it gains media attention and impacts the brand's reputation." — Rafi Mendelsohn [00:31:00 → 00:31:20] On the Importance of Understanding Social Media Conversations: "We need to differentiate between the fake accounts and the real ones, understand the narratives being pushed by fake accounts, and assess their impact on the real conversation. This is crucial for brands to respond appropriately." — Rafi Mendelsohn [00:49:00 → 00:49:20] On the Role of GenAI in Communications: "GenAI can be a powerful tool for communicators. It can help us game out scenarios, prepare responses, and mitigate social media negativity. It's about using the technology to stay ahead of the challenges we face." — Dan Nestle [00:52:00 → 00:52:20] On the Role of GenAI in Disinformation: "GenAI is fantastic, but in the hands of malicious actors, it becomes a tool for creating very believable content. This makes it harder for us to distinguish between real and fake accounts, complicating the challenge of maintaining trust." — Rafi Mendelsohn [00:17:30 → 00:17:45] On the Future of Communications: "The next six to twelve months are going to be really interesting from our industry perspective. We need to up our game and work through the challenges posed by new technologies and threats to guide our organizations effectively." — Rafi Mendelsohn [01:03:00 → 01:03:20]     Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website

Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn

Dan Nestle | Twitter

Rafi Mendelsohn

• Cyabra | Website

Rafi Mendelsohn | LinkedIn

 

Timestamped summary for this episode (as generated by ChatGPT)

The trust crisis (00:00:00)

Discussion about the unprecedented decline in trust in institutions, the prevalence of misinformation, and the impact of technology and AI.

Introduction of Rafi Mendelsohn (00:01:12)

Dan introduces Rafi Mendelsohn, VP of Marketing at Cyabra, and discusses his background in PR and marketing.

AI's role in communication (00:02:09)

Exploration of the evolving role of AI in communication and the challenges faced by communicators and marketers.

Rafi's background (00:04:01)

Rafi's career journey from working in PR agencies to leading marketing at Cyabra, and his passion for data storytelling.

Cyabra's focus and mission (00:07:54)

Rafi discusses Cyabra's role in uncovering and mitigating misinformation and disinformation online, particularly in the context of social media.

Defining misinformation and disinformation (00:10:23)

Clearing the distinction between misinformation and disinformation, and the impact of these on societal narratives and trust.

Challenges of identifying bots (00:18:04)

The prevalence of bots in online conversations, the difficulty in identifying them, and the potential impact on public discourse.

Extent of bot presence (00:19:13)

Insights into the average percentage of fake accounts in online conversations and the significance of higher numbers in certain discussions.

Elon Musk's Twitter Acquisition (00:20:29)

Discussion about analyzing data for Elon Musk's potential acquisition of Twitter.

Impact of Fake Accounts (00:21:29)

Exploring the impact and dominance of fake accounts in online conversations and their influence on narratives.

Bot Activity on Various Platforms (00:22:39)

Observations of bot and malicious activity on different social media platforms, including Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn.

Geopolitical and Brand Disinformation (00:27:11)

Examination of how fake accounts drive conversations around geopolitical and brand-related issues, impacting public perception and creating crises.

Influence of Fake Accounts on Brands (00:29:14)

Analysis of how fake accounts can negatively impact brands, including examples of orchestrated campaigns targeting companies.

Challenges for Communicators (00:32:20)

Discussion on the challenges faced by communicators in defending brand reputation against bot-driven disinformation and crisis management.

Defensive Communications and Brand Disinformation (00:37:23)

Exploring the gap in defensive mindset between security and communications teams, and the need for tools to address bot attacks and disinformation.

Global Origins of Malicious Actors (00:39:32)

Understanding the diverse origins and motivations of malicious actors behind bot networks and disinformation campaigns.

Malicious Actors and Their Motivations (00:39:56)

Discussion on the motivations of malicious actors, including power, influence, and money, and their use of fake accounts to influence opinions.

Understanding the Different Actors and Risks (00:40:47)

Exploration of the various types of criminals and actors involved in cyber attacks, and the low barrier to entry for conducting such activities.

Dealing with Disinformation and Crisis Communications (00:41:46)

Addressing the challenges of combating disinformation, crisis communications strategies, and the impact of shadow banning on disseminating good information.

Social Media as One Channel for Communicators (00:44:10)

Emphasizing the importance of understanding the conversation and the individuals involved, and the need to differentiate between fake and real accounts.

Addressing Fake Accounts and Negative Activity (00:45:16)

Strategies for addressing fake accounts, including identifying and addressing "superspreaders" of negativity, and amplifying positive voices.

Vigilance and Defensive Measures (00:48:09)

The importance of vigilance, proactive defensive measures, and the need for companies to have systems in place to differentiate and respond to attacks.

Proactive Monitoring and Ignoring Certain Threats (00:52:09)

The significance of proactive monitoring, the need to respond selectively, and the empowerment of ignoring non-threatening issues

Using AI for Scenario Planning and Mitigation Tactics (00:53:17)

Exploring the potential use of AI for scenario planning and mitigation tactics, and the importance of early detection and preparation.

Impact of Bunker Mentality and Brand Exposure (00:54:52)

Discussion on the impact of brands adopting a bunker mentality and the need to address the increasing weaponization of social media by malicious actors.

Opportunity for Marketers and Communicators to Lead (00:58:40)

The opportunity for marketers and communicators to lead in understanding and addressing the impact of cyber threats and disinformation on society.

Profile Building and Concerns (01:00:00)

Discussion on the generation of profiles and the concerns regarding identifying real people.

Future Challenges for Communicators (01:00:59)

Predictions and concerns about the evolving role of communicators in dealing with new technology and threats.

Impact of Technology on Roles (01:03:46)

Discussion on the potential realignment of roles and responsibilities due to the influence of AI and technology.

Gratitude and Contact Information (01:05:56)

Expressing gratitude to the guest and providing contact information for further engagement.

Conclusion and Call to Action (01:07:24)

Closing remarks, encouraging subscription, sharing, and participation in future episodes.

 

(Notes prepared by humans with the assistance of a variety of AI tools, including ChatGPT and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Is AI the greatest gift ever for lazy people? I've often said that if you want to find a better way to do something, ask a lazy person. Laziness, as it turns out, is a virtue. Lazy people want to find the most efficient way to get through a task. No wonder they're taking to AI like fish to water.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle connects with Kami Huyse, CEO of Zoetica. A self-described "lazy entrepreneur," Kami has nonetheless blazed new trails in AI adoption and implementation and is a recognized PR industry thought leader, speaker, and author.  Dan and Kami explore the transformative impact of AI on the PR and marketing industries, emphasizing the importance of ethical considerations and critical thinking. 

Their discussion highlights the necessity of asking better questions, experimenting strategically, and maintaining a human-centric approach to AI. They also delve into AI's ethical challenges, stressing the need for transparency and responsible use. 

It's anything but a lazy conversation - it's a must-listen for professionals looking to navigate the evolving landscape of AI in communications.

Listen in and hear about....

• The importance of an entrepreneurial mindset while embracing AI
• AI "recipes" that can help you advance from a "home cook" prompter to a true AI "chef" 
• How prompting skills may become obsolete as AI integration in software increases
• The necessity of critical thinking, curiosity, and a strategic mindset for effective AI interaction
• The importance of ethics and transparency when we use AI
• How AI can assist in content creation while maintaining a brand's unique voice and style
• Practical insights on leveraging AI for community building and social media strategy

Notable Quotes

On Being a Lazy Entrepreneur: - "I call myself a lazy entrepreneur in a sense, because what I've always done is I look at a problem that's in front of me, and I try to figure out a way to do it more efficiently and different." — Kami Huyse [00:03:33 → 00:03:45] On the Evolution of Social Media and AI: - "I've always been a forward-leaning person, and we did some of the first social media campaigns for big, big brands that you would know. So we did those social media campaigns early because we look at solving problems with current technology. And to me, AI is just an extension of that." — Kami Huyse [00:05:00 → 00:05:20] On the Importance of Asking Better Questions: - "We need to start to think about how to elevate those conversations. What do we need to, what questions do we need to be asking? We need to ask better questions. That's where the training comes in." — Kami Huyse [00:12:00 → 00:12:10] On the Role of Imperfection in Human Creativity: - "How do we have a pattern interrupt? I'll tell you how you throw in the imperfect human. That's how you tell imperfect stories. You talk about being a lazy entrepreneur. These are pattern interrupts that AI won't come up with on its own." — Kami Huyse [00:30:00 → 00:30:15]

On the Future of AI and Human Interaction: - "We need to think about what can we bring to the table that is like a spice of human while understanding fully the AI and using it fully. So not throwing the baby out the bathwater, as we always said, but using the AI for what it's good for and throwing in your own spice." — Kami Huyse [00:30:30 → 00:30:50] On the Ethical Use of AI: - "AI isn't inherently evil, but the people who wield it are maybe so there's people that wield the AI. Here's the problem with AI in general. It's just like our society. Like, we talk about, you know, racism and bias and, you know, sexism and terrible things. Here's what AI does. It takes all of the knowledge of the world, and it boils it down and it repeats it back to you." — Kami Huyse [00:59:41 → 01:00:10] On the Role of Communicators in Ethical AI: - "We as PR communicators should be the ombudsman for our organizations. We should bring our point of view to protect the people that we represent as PR people. And the people we represent are our audience, are our customers, our stakeholders." — Kami Huyse [01:06:25 → 01:06:45]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• Dan Nestle | Twitter

Kami Huyse

• Kami's Flowpage: Links to social media, resources, and more
• Zoetica Media, Digital Agency | Website

Books Mentioned

The Most Amazing Marketing Book Ever: More than 350 inspiring ideas!, by Mark Schaefer and Friends (Including Kami and Dan)

Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI, by Ethan Mollick

 

Timestamped summary for this episode (as generated by ChatGPT)

The origin of ideas (00:00:00)

Dan discusses his excitement for new ideas and tech, including the concept of creating custom GPT.

The traits of successful idea execution (00:01:02)

Dan outlines the traits and qualities required for successful idea execution, such as discipline, focus, and support.

Introduction of Kami Huyse (00:02:01)

Dan introduces Kami Huyse, highlighting her background and expertise in PR, marketing, and AI integration.

Kami's problem-solving approach (00:03:46)

Kami discusses her approach to solving problems efficiently and her focus on community building and AI integration.

Evolution of media and technology (00:09:53)

Dan and Kami reflect on the digital transformation and the importance of hands-on experiences in the marketing profession.

The importance of AI training and mindset (00:11:55)

Kami emphasizes the significance of training and developing an entrepreneurial mindset for effectively integrating AI in communication and marketing.

Ethan Mollick's principles of AI interaction (00:17:07)

Dan discusses Ethan Mollick's principles for interacting with AI, including inviting AI to the table, being the human in the loop, treating AI like a person, and acknowledging AI's continuous improvement.

The importance of asking better questions (00:18:56)

Kami discusses the importance of asking better questions to guide AI in achieving desired tasks and outcomes.

The analogy of home cook and chef (00:19:37)

Kami compares the difference between a home cook and a chef to illustrate the importance of understanding and utilizing AI tools effectively.

The need for strategic training in AI tools (00:21:40)

Kami emphasizes the significance of strategic training for the next generation to effectively use AI tools and adapt to the evolving marketplace.

The integration of AI in software applications (00:22:54)

The discussion revolves around the increasing integration of AI capabilities in various software applications and its impact on prompting and human interaction.

The evolving role of prompting in AI usage (00:24:01)

The conversation delves into the evolving role of prompting in AI usage, the impact of contextual understanding, and the distinction between chefs and home cooks in utilizing AI.

The significance of asking power questions (00:25:04)

The importance of asking power questions and the role of strategic prompting in utilizing AI effectively is highlighted.

The importance of being relentlessly curious (00:27:07)

Kami emphasizes the significance of being relentlessly curious and training the brain to notice and understand AI interactions.

The concept of almost homemade solutions (00:29:01)

Kami discusses the concept of almost homemade solutions, encouraging individuals to add their own unique touch to AI tools for personalized outcomes.

The value of the imperfect human in AI interaction (00:30:01)

The significance of embracing imperfection and adding human elements to AI interactions for unique and effective outcomes is emphasized.

The need for critical thinking and curiosity in AI interaction (00:32:02)

The importance of critical thinking, curiosity, and asking questions to drive effective interaction with AI tools is discussed.

The importance of adding personal touch to AI tools (00:33:56)

The significance of adding a personal touch and unique spice to AI tools for tailored and effective utilization is highlighted.

The significance of being a critical thinker and inquisitive communicator (00:37:05)

The importance of critical thinking, curiosity, and being an inquisitive communicator in adapting to AI tools and driving effective outcomes is emphasized.

Critical thinking (00:38:20)

Emphasizing the importance of critical thinking skills in evaluating information and avoiding deception.

Asking better questions (00:39:12)

Highlighting the significance of asking great questions to avoid monolithic content and promoting individuality.

Life experiences and personal touch (00:40:10)

Discussing the value of bringing personal experiences and unique elements to content creation to avoid generic outcomes.

Human element in AI (00:41:49)

Emphasizing the need for human input and caution when relying solely on AI, acknowledging occasional breakdowns and the importance of adding personal touch.

Ethics and AI technology (00:42:43)

Exploring the ethical implications of AI technology, including power consumption and the need for continuous input of new information.

Reading and vocabulary (00:48:27)

Stressing the importance of reading to enhance vocabulary and improve communication with AI.

Writing and editing (00:50:20)

Emphasizing the significance of being a good writer and engaging in editing to effectively communicate with AI.

Community involvement (00:52:52)

Advocating joining communities to learn from peers and stay informed about emerging technologies.

Curiosity and diverse learning (00:54:51)

Encouraging continuous curiosity, diverse learning, and open-mindedness to expand knowledge and perspectives.

Neuroscience and AI (00:57:08)

Discussion on the neuroscience behind AI interaction and the concept of neural networks.

Ethical Considerations (00:58:22)

Exploration of the societal, political, and civilizational changes brought by powerful digital entities and the focus on ethical AI usage.

Bias in AI (01:00:04)

Insight into the biases present in AI and the need for training to reduce biases, with examples of biased prompts and diversity representation.

AI Governance and Ethics (01:05:44)

Discussion on the need for external oversight in AI governance and the role of communicators as ethical safeguards.

Transparency and Ethics (01:08:24)

Importance of transparency in AI usage and the alignment of AI ethics with general ethical principles and governance.

Ethical Decision-Making (01:13:25)

Emphasis on the responsibility of individuals to inject morality and ethics into AI, and the ongoing discussion and importance of ethical considerations.

Backbone and Ethics (01:15:08)

The need for courage and backbone in ethical decision-making, with a focus on the role of communicators in promoting ethical practices.

Difficult decisions (01:16:14)

Discussion on the challenge of expressing contravening opinions and the weight of decision-making in today's society.

Tools and resources (01:17:14)

Mention of plans to discuss tools and resources, and a recommendation to connect with Kami for valuable resources.

Connect with Kami (01:18:00)

Information on how to connect with Kami Huyse on social media and her company, Kamchatka, and a mention of her live streams and AI show.

Closing remarks (01:19:52)

Gratitude for Kami's participation and an invitation to subscribe, share, and provide feedback for the podcast.

 

(Notes prepared by humans with the assistance of a variety of AI tools, including ChatGPT and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How do FBI hostage negotiation tactics link to public relations and corporate crisis management? And how can understanding both help you prove your value to your stakeholders and audiences? 

Demonstrating value is a familiar hurdle for communicators, especially when navigating the turbulent waters of a crisis. Effective crisis communication provides a crucial lifeline that can make or break a company's reputation.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with two incredible guests: PR agency CEO, crisis counselor, and advisor to at least one US president, Adele Gambardella, and retired FBI agent, hostage negotiator, and spy chaser, Chip Massey. Now, as co-founders of The Convincing Company,  they help their clients navigate crises and provide the training they need to prepare for the challenges ahead. With Dan, they dive deep into the art and science of crisis communication and persuasion and how a methodical approach to analyzing conversations - Forensic Listening - may be the most powerful skill a communicator should have. You'll discover the power of forensic listening, the subtlety of non-verbal cues, and the strategic use of targeted validation to build trust and rapport and get to the core of hidden narratives that drive crisis response.

Adele and Chip also discuss groundbreaking topics like the role of AI in communication analysis, the persuasive power of predictive statements, and why companies need to take bold stances on controversial issues. Drawing from their book Convince Me, they highlight the importance of deep listening and emotional control in mastering effective communication and negotiation.

Don't miss out on these practical tips that are ready to be implemented, designed to enhance your crisis communication strategies and empower you to confidently demonstrate your value to stakeholders.

Listen in and hear about...

• The evolving role of crisis communication in handling modern threats like misinformation and AI misuse.
• The formation and impact of the Convincing Company, which integrates PR strategies and crisis negotiation.
• The concept of forensic listening and its application in understanding and addressing communication nuances.
• The importance of adapting communication strategies to handle high-stress situations effectively.
• Strategies for corporate communicators to prepare for and respond to contentious societal issues, especially in politically charged climates.
• The distinction between convincing and negotiating, emphasizing the importance of aligning values and visions for effective communication outcomes.

Notable Quotes

On the Importance of Crisis Communication: "When there's trouble, communicators roll up their sleeves and get to work. We turn trouble around and send it away. Nobody questions our value then." — Dan Nestle [00:01:30 → 00:01:40]

On the Value of Forensic Listening: "Forensic listening is the art and science of analyzing a conversation after it's happened. Words leave clues." — Chip Massey [00:16:30 → 00:16:40]

On the Importance of Crisis Training: "Crisis management is a muscle. It's one of those things that, like, I love it because I think really fast and on my feet... It's a muscle, though." — Adele Gambardella [00:52:44 → 00:53:00]

On Convincing vs. Negotiating: "As a hostage negotiator, I never negotiated with anybody. I was actually convincing that person to value what I valued." — Chip Massey [01:06:00 → 01:06:10]

On the Importance of Not Starting with Your Strongest Point: "Never start with your strongest point first, because if you do that, all you do is make everybody in the room dig their heels in." — Adele Gambardella [01:10:45 → 01:11:00]

On Deep Listening: "Deep listening... our own stress improves when we're really listening and trying to help somebody else and we can come up with better solutions." — Chip Massey [01:11:45 → 01:12:00]

Resources & Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn
• Dan Nestle | Twitter (@dsnestle)

Adele Gambardella and Chip Massey

• Adele Gambardella | LinkedIn
• Chip Massey | LinkedIn
• The Convincing Company | Instagram (@convincingco)
• The Convincing Company | Website

Mentioned

• Book: Convince Me: High-Stakes Negotiation Tactics to Get Results in Any Business Situation

 

Timestamped summary for this episode (as generated by ChatGPT)

Introduction of Guests (00:01:07)

Introduction of Adele Gambardella and Chip Massey, their backgrounds, and their collaboration in crisis communications.

Formation of The Convincing Company (00:02:11)

Adele and Chip explain how they met, their complementary skill sets, and the formation of The Convincing Company.

Adele's Burnout and Meeting Chip (00:09:28)

Adele's experience with burnout, meeting Chip, and the realization of their complementary expertise. 

Forensic Listening (00:16:40)

Chip explains the concept of forensic listening and its importance in understanding emotions and themes in conversations for effective communication.

Understanding the Meeting (00:21:37)

Interpreting underlying messages in a meeting, identifying emotions, and linking them with the topic.

Body Positioning (00:22:33)

Understanding the significance of body positioning in communication, its impact on energy and value.

Voice Analysis (00:23:42)

Analyzing pitch, tone, and cadence in communication, and its importance in understanding emotions and messages.

Forensic Listening Story (00:27:13)

A real-life example illustrating the importance of observing body positioning and non-verbal cues in communication.

Applying Forensic Listening (00:35:50)

Understanding the application of forensic listening in different scenarios, including crisis situations and meetings.

Validation and Trust (00:39:19)

The importance of validation in corporate communication, building trust, and influencing positive outcomes.

The fortune teller's impact (00:41:38)

Discussion on the convincing nature of fortune tellers and a personal experience with a fortune teller in a high school class.

Predictive statements in convincing (00:43:28)

Exploration of how predictive statements are used to convince and manipulate, with an example of a statement made to the host.

The power of open questions (00:45:00)

The effectiveness of open questions in conversations and negotiations, and the different responses they can elicit.

Predictive statements in interviews (00:46:52)

The use of predictive statements in hostage negotiations and interviews to encourage conversation and elicit information.

Emotion in crisis response (00:49:51)

The role of emotion in crisis response and the importance of managing fear as a motivator in difficult situations.

Crisis management as a skill (00:53:24)

The discussion of crisis management as a skill that needs to be continuously practiced and developed, with a workshop example.

Challenges in crisis communication (00:55:15)

The challenges faced in crisis communication, including conflicting advice from legal and the importance of countering instincts.

Understanding unstated narratives (00:57:17)

The significance of understanding unstated narratives and how it can provide an advantage in communication and negotiation.

Future of crisis communication (01:00:02)

Anticipation of companies taking stances on controversial issues and the need for communicators to identify core issues and boundaries.

The duty to respond (01:03:20)

Discussion about the duty of companies to respond to relevant issues that align with their core values.

Training for emotional control (01:04:07)

Importance of training for emotional control and scenario planning in heightened and polarizing times.

High-level convincing (01:06:40)

Exploration of convincing as a higher level negotiation strategy, focusing on future and motivation.

Social media presence (01:10:02)

Mention of the convincing company's social media presence and content strategy.

Effective communication strategy (01:10:44)

Insight on the importance of not starting with the strongest point first in communication strategies.

Deep listening (01:11:46)

The benefits of deep listening for stress reduction and creativity.

 

(Notes prepared by humans with the assistance of a variety of AI tools, including ChatGPT and Flowsend.ai)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

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