The Unified Team

Daniel Sloss's Jigsaw standup routine has led to 95,000+ breakups. Here's a clip of him talking about it on Conan O Brien;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRpOtOs45bo

We discussed the topics raised.

Transcription

[00:00]

What were your thoughts on watching? The jigsaw. Well, it was quite harrowing. Well, I think we need we need more of the percentages of the healthy marriages that do work out rather than focusing on all the ones that don't.

[00:22]

I think his point was exactly that the ones that are breaking is because they are together for the wrong reasons and it won't last at all.

[00:30]

But at the same time, I think it goes to an extreme that I don't believe there will be an absolute perfect person for you. You're not going to love like the one hundred percent of that first. And there's always going to be something that is not there. But you just kind of work with that because what you love is more than what you don't love and you make it work. So that's where I disagree with him, because he makes it like you can't it's like it's not there's no malleability in these jigsaw.

[01:02]

It's like the piece either fits or then throw it away. It's just to me, it's a bit too much. But that was my thought about it. I found it funny when he was saying you spent all your life being so busy working on your own jigsaw and they spend all your life being so busy working on theirs, and then we try and merge the two together.

[01:26]

It's just like, yeah, I think that's us.

[01:32]

And he does mention common goals. I think that simple.

[01:34]

And you need to have some sort of common vision to be able compatibility agenda goals.

[01:42]

But yeah, I agree with a lot of what he was saying, but some of it was just a bit too cynical and a bit too doom and gloom and whatever. Yeah.

[01:52]

I mean, I think, first of all, you have to put it in the context.

[01:56]

There is a stand up and he's also done a TED talk. And I think what he's brought up is a serious issue. But he has done a TED talk where he talks about like himself and Ricky Gervais and Frankie Boyle and basically saying that when you're doing standup to entertain you playing a character, his role is to take things to extreme. You shouldn't take it seriously.

[02:30]

But I think what he what he picked up on what he's pointing out is the governments have done some research and they say that on average, it takes people six years to leave a marriage from when they they're thinking about it. So when they actually pull the trigger and I know when I'm thinking back like I knew my marriage was over a long time before, but you've got children and how's that going to work out for them? And so there's all these kind of things that mean that you you kind of stay together, unhappy for years.

[03:12]

And I think that's that's what he's he's done and there are people who are needing to be in a relationship rather than a great relationship, and because of that, they're getting some sense of validation and whatever from being in the relationship. And I think those are the relationships that are vulnerable and that he's close to break up. And of course, it's not his cause that he's just made people ask questions that I would have asked sooner or later anyway. So.

[03:54]

Did you have you seen times where that has played into, like I said, as played into my past relationships, I can I can think of instances. Did you. Are there things that, if you thought of that at the time, would have changed how you behaved or how you whether you stayed in or not in the relationship? I know I was a victim of that sort of fairy tale and, you know, you sort of just stumble into a relationship where somebody sort of scenario and then you try to change them to fit what you want and they try to change you to fit.

[04:33]

Well, they won. And you know, what worked was a. I do think, as I've said, that. Yeah, he's gone to the extreme that nobody is going to he's basically at the extreme is saying you need someone who's going to slide into your jigsaw, which, like you said, you've got to Jigsaw's. No one ever is going to. You need to let go of the jigsaw and build a new one. So what can we learn from it?

[05:14]

Is he kind of not seeing the particular program, is he kind of like saying because the show consists of different shape, the pieces, that those pieces are never going to go together? Is that kind of weird that you thought of that?

[05:30]

No, I'll try. I'll try and give you a summary. So basically, he said when he was seven, he asked his dad what was the meaning of life, and he said his dad answered him perfectly. You gave him the perfect metaphor. He said, well, son, he said, life is like a jigsaw. And you've got the Four Corners, which are like family. Friends were hobbies. And then maybe someone will die and you'll have a piece missing.

[05:54]

You'll have different friends you might change this about. You might have to change hobbies for work and make a compromise. And so then he said, well, okay, so what goes in the middle? And he said, well, one day someone will walk into your life and make it complete and they'll fit perfectly into the middle of your jigsaw, just like your mom did for me. And you'll live happily ever after and they'll completely. And so he lived his young life, finished along in his 20s, trying meeting someone and then changing to please them so that they would fit into the jigsaw.

[06:34]

And basically what he's saying and. The point he's trying to make is that he's rebelling against the idea that being in a relationship makes you better, like from sort of smug, arrogant social media posts of look at me, I'm with this one I love so much when that isn't the truth of their relationship. So he's saying it's okay to be single. He said, why is society pressuring everyone to be in a relationship and to prove that they're happy?

[07:05]

And then he says the three particular things that it tells you, that you can't be happy without a relationship, you're broken without a relationship, and you need someone to completely. And so that's basically the jigsaw metaphor. I don't think we need people to completely and I don't think we can be absent of happiness, but I definitely do think like relationships, a healthy relationship brings something to a person's life that they wouldn't have necessarily had without it. And I think there's even research to say that if you've been in a healthy long term relationship, you live longer and have better health and all that sort of stuff.

[07:49]

So we kind of hear what he's saying. What do you think people can be complete?

[07:55]

It's not yeah, it's definitely not the perfect analogy and it doesn't all make sense. It's still quite skewed in his own head.

[08:05]

Well, actually, the the there's a study. That's been done, John F. Kennedy was in it's a cohort of Harvard University and they studied them as they came out and they studied them through their life. And so this was John at John F. Kennedy was in university, and it's the Harvard. Some anyway, it's been going like that 80 odd years, and so it's had a number of people managing the study and the last two have done TED talks on saying basically everyone throughout their life has opportunities.

[08:49]

Everyone has has highs and lows.

[08:51]

They have good things happen. They have bad things happen. They all have money problems. They all have health scares. They lose people they love.

[08:59]

And they said the most important thing, the biggest factor for wealth, for health and for happiness was the quality of people's relationships. So, yes, I think it's we're social animals. We have to be part of the pack. And in a relationship, not necessarily. I think some people I think there are a few people that are happy being single. And, you know, like you look at like the Dalai Lama or some monk somewhere who's I think.

[09:34]

They're probably going to have the easiest, most peaceful life because they're going to have the stress of a relationship, but most people have what Helen Fisher talks about as a we have a sex drive, but she says we also have a romantic drive and need to be. With someone or or to love someone special, so, yeah, I definitely think that's part of it. I think it's just the fact that we need to learn how do we get along and make the relationship healthy and not settle for something that's less than enough.

[10:11]

In that particular study that we're talking about is the relationship with a significant other or just general relationship like family, friends?

[10:20]

Both. Both, particularly. Just generally.

[10:29]

They basically like people who've sold out for money and just driven for what what they want to do, achieve the cost of their relationships. Business and personal are the ones that have less health, less happiness, more regret later on. That strikes me as somebody who is transactional rather than emotional and. I mean, I can think of my grandfather as being a very transactional person, my mother's father, that that grandfather. Yes. And he created. He received love because he gave money.

[11:23]

Which I suppose worked for him. That's the loyalty, that's how he got loyalty from his children, because there was always the promise of money. Hmm. And so there are times when all that the 10 children would be together would come to see papa because papa was getting interest on his accounts and the money was the was available to be shared. So you need to come to visit Papa on a set on a Sunday and spend an entire day with him.

[11:57]

So you would be looked on favourably and you would get a. A chunk. And you wanted to be number one out of the ten, you know? Well, there was one who never got and it was yes. So it wasn't real love. And did that cause a lot of friction between the siblings? Oh, yes, even now, even now, I don't speak to two of my aunts because they're just horrible people because of because of that, it's all about money.

[12:29]

And I'm just not getting involved in that. It's that's how they view the world. It's what they can get. And so if you are if you are a well-off sister, then you're my favorite sister, because then you're going to leave me something in the world. But if you are not able to do sister, then I guess you're my sister and I love you. But that doesn't mean anything. I will not be there for you in any way.

[12:56]

But you're my sister. I love you, darling. But now I will not come and visit you if you are ill because you have nothing to live for me in the real.

[13:08]

So that, to me is transactional and. I don't know what kind of gratification you actually get out of that, because you must realize that it's false. That's the point I'm actually making. That is not a it's it's not real. Those people have no real emotions for you. You have bought it. Hmm. I suppose Mr. Trump is the Trump.

[13:35]

I think from my personal experience, my. My dad was the eldest of four siblings. And there were three sons and one daughter and Chinese culture, traditionally, the boy inherits and my father was quite. He's passed now, but he was quite forward ticking in that, you know, you know, all should get equal shares, you know, so we had some property in China that the government gave back. If you applied and the other two brothers wanted to cut the sister out because she was married and no longer technically part of the family, she belonged to another family.

[14:24]

And my dad said that, you know, no, she should have a share. And to be able to apply and get this land back property back from the Chinese government, all siblings had to sign this document to apply for it. So, you know, and at that time, because my family, my dad is not a rich man, wasn't a rich man, you know, we just managed to get by. But his two brothers did very well for themselves in Hong Kong, but they needed his signature to apply for this property.

[14:57]

And so throughout the years, while they were going through the process, they were like loving brothers, you know, every holiday with they speak and everything and see how they were. But apart from that, they did speak to each other, you know, like, well, my dad can live like these 20 years. There was no contact. And all of a sudden, you know, out of the woodwork they did this and then. Everything got the land back and everything, and then they needed his signature again because they wanted to sell the property and get the cash.

[15:30]

And in that time, my aunt died suddenly and again. They wanted to cut out her children from from a share because, you know, they would have inherited the mother's share. I don't know what happened there. But what I do know is that when my dad was seriously in a hospital, he was dying. My dad asked us, asked me if I could call my uncle to let him know so that he could come visit him in hospital.

[15:59]

And literally, I called the house the number and they said we hadn't spoken in years since they sold the property and somebody picked up and spoke to Chinese. And basically when I asked my uncle, I was told it was wrong. No, she put the phone down and then when I called back, the answer supposed be called. So it's straight to voicemail and, you know, I have actually disowned my my father's side because to me, they're not family.

[16:29]

And what you're saying about being very transactional now, I think when my uncle, prior to being married, potentially there was a chance to have a better relationship. But I think he was quite old. I think he was in his 40s before he married his wife, introduced through his sister in law, and she was in her twenties and he wanted a family. So out of that, I believe, a transactional relationship because she wanted to come out of China.

[17:01]

He wanted a wife. He wanted a family. So what he got out of the relationship was he got a son. You know, so I think that's how he really he measured. Love, whatever. It was transactional, I think they both knew what they were getting into. That, yeah, sorry, that was a very long story. Thank you for sharing. It helps to see how these kind of dynamics play out in real life situations.

There are The Rules, Pick Up Strategies and all self-proclaimed experts claiming they have the secret to dating success.

But is success getting in a relationship that's wrong for you?

We discuss the topic and as always range all over the areas of dating, relationships sharing perspectives and experiences.

Transcript

[00:00]

So I'm thinking if we break into breakout rooms based on the cooking, I can't get through. Now, last week, last week's version was treat them mean to keep them keen.

[00:15]

So wondering we're in agreement. I don't think they necessarily agreed with. With the principle, but believe it happens and the other room was so opposed to that. So.

[00:33]

I was hoping by by being in two sort of camps, we might develop the argument more and have a bit more of a debate to tease out all the issues. So does anyone want to start and open up the debate? Gulfstar. And we sort of discussed that it does work, it does happen, it does work for people and we don't necessarily think it's that or at least I can talk for myself. I don't see it as being it's not the only way that works.

[01:17]

And we don't think it's anything that's going to result in a quality, authentic, long lasting relationship. Think, did you want to say more sessions now, so we're finished and I'm just going to I'm just komu everyone. And then if you want to talk, just talk. Just we cut out the background noise, so just admit yourself to talk. So, Ben, are you.

[01:43]

Yeah. I think what came up for us. Well I speak for myself from what I picked up on the theme of availability and perhaps sort of not showing that you're too available in the early stages of. Courtship, for want of a better phrase, might create a sense of failure or attraction. That's my theory. I mean, it's not it's you know, it's kind of sort of bordering on veer into dishonesty, manipulation at its most extreme. But I think everyone does does do it to a degree, really, whether it's treating someone mean or not, you know, discuss which we're doing.

[02:36]

But that's that's what those are my thoughts anyway. That's what I got from our discussion group. And if anyone else wants to chime in and add to that or disagree.

[02:48]

Yeah, I was saying that if you come across as too keen, it can actually pay off a woman. But that doesn't mean you have to. But if you come across, I don't know if your tooth is yardstick, she can think, I don't know, you're too easily available or I don't know what the logic is. But so I think there's some truth in what you just said, assuming that's what you meant. Yes, but at the same time, I find it hard because as a man, I think there's still a lot of women's minds, the sort of expectation of the man.

[03:21]

It's my job to kind of initiate and lead and show interest and balance right early. Yeah, I think so. So I think there is I think you have to separate the two, really there's like the person and then there's the like the social mask, the social view of the person. And being that we're social animals, there is and we're pack animals, there is kind of like a status. And if. If you to it's not that I don't think it's necessarily the fact that you're too quick to respond, I think it's the fact that it appears that you've got nothing better to do.

[04:08]

And it seems like you have low social value because you're not really it looks like you're. Always dependent and needy on that person, whereas if you're authentically doing your own thing and you're busy, sometimes you're not going to be able to reply. So is it do you think it's something to do with that social value as opposed to. As a strategy. It does the strategy work because it increases your social value? I'm not sure it does. I think it's just if people are overenthusiastic, it just feels too fast more than anything else.

[04:54]

Or at least I can only say that from my perspective anyway, which then creates the pressure.

[05:00]

And you feel like they're going too fast and you feel like you then have to reciprocate.

[05:04]

And I lose myself. If I had to go at that pace and lose my own grounding and it all got a bit like you have to explain it better than that, it almost feels like.

[05:20]

If I was to reciprocate the speed of the overenthusiastic, it would it would just I don't know how to explain it. I would lose a sense of reality and a sense of grounding in that. As in it's kind artificially fast us. You feel smothered, I suppose. As well. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of we lose everything else going on in my world and I would be yeah.

[05:52]

And also you start wondering what is the is that an affirmative? As well, but. I think when we talk about this sort of and I think was it Ben, that said that the manipulation basically, that's what it comes down to. Ultimately, it's it's not going to work. It's not going to be a long lasting thing. I think this will Sasha will sing as well and. It's not so much I think the whole point comes down to authenticity.

[06:27]

If you are not yourself, so if if you are, for example, the desperate person, you've got nobody and you cling to one person and smother them, that's going to come across the way it is. And it's going to put the person rightly so, because you're almost like drowning them, then you need to kind of get a grip on your own self. You need to sort your own issues out first because you need to treat the other person with some respect, give them a bit of space and all the rest of it.

[06:58]

The desperation comes across. If, on the other hand, you, I suppose, used the tactic and try to be as if, you know, I haven't got time today, I want to respond to you on purpose so that I can make it look like I you know, I'm so busy I haven't got time for you. But actually, I have. I'm just trying to respond. But I'm just there is manipulation game that is still not being true.

[07:28]

And after a while, people will figure you out for who you are. And then and then where are you then? Basically nothing, because they'll just walk away. Rightly so. So I think if anybody feels that they have to have somebody they can't be without someone and they're going to end up smothering them, then they perhaps need to look inwardly and see how they can fix that first. We'll need somebody at some point, you've got a defined time, I can you define rushing in because some some people say rushing in is a text message every 30 seconds.

[08:09]

Another people you get a text from every three days. How can you fall in love with someone with a text message? Every. But then again, the text messages all day at work can be smoldering in and over the top. It's a debate that there's no there's no answer to it. It could go on for years. The debate like this.

[08:28]

Well, I think the first thing to recognize with that, I will say anyway, is that we are not dealing with a mathematical formula. You're dealing with human beings. Yeah. And every person will be different. And in any case, that person will change over time as well. You'll notice. So you're going to have to learn to read the signals from the other person. If if you kind of go right, first I do this, then I do that, then I do that, then I get the result.

[08:59]

People are like they may be having a bad day. They may be having a fantastic day. So on the fantastic day, you get lots of responses that are joyful on the part that you get zero responses. They say to you, sort of leave me alone. I've got things to you to kind of compensate for that a little bit. You know, I mean, I talk to my friends and sometimes we talk a long time. Sometimes I'll send the wrong message and she might not get back to me for two days.

[09:24]

And all I will think is, oh, she must be really busy. And that's it. You know, I won't I won't be pestering her sometimes. And sometimes she does the opposite back. She brings me a few times and says, I feel like I'm stalking you now. So, you know, if you're busy, just let me know or something. And I was under attack saying, I'm really, really busy at the moment. Sorry, I'll call you later on this evening or something.

[09:47]

And it's that sort of sort of relationship, but. I suppose what I'm saying is even with people, you know, sometimes you may not get a response all the time, even though I've known this woman for a long time and we're just just friends, nothing else. There are times when we don't talk to each other for a long time because we're just very busy. So I suppose bottom line is that there isn't a formula that you can use.

[10:12]

You just have to learn what the other person is about. You just have that this. I suppose in some ways that's the scary part, but it's also the fun part, you are finding out about the other person. If you're interested in the other person, in some to some degree, you're going to find out what they're like. To be fair, I think it's a lot different speaking about a friend than it is a potential lover because there's just not the same dynamics and being involved it, although I do appreciate what you say.

[10:46]

I yeah, I don't know, I, I'm not so sure I agree with that, to be honest with you.

[10:53]

Well, yeah, because you're not you know, you're not trying to get your friend into a bad idea. You're not trying to have a romantic thing with your friend.

[11:01]

So it's so passionate is absolutely right.

[11:05]

And you know what? One thing I discovered after my marriage is that first thing not to do is never to try and get into bed anyway, especially because you don't know.

[11:17]

I don't really know what I mean, because obviously the subject tonight is about seating them and keeping them keen, isn't it? And I think we're talking about from a romance issue, if we can use that word relationship.

[11:30]

Absolutely. Yes, even in even in Korea, even in a romantic setting, I'd still agree with our being being not being this sort of authentic way to go about things.

[11:42]

Exactly. What I'm saying is that I'm sorry if I can just finish and then I'll let you guys go. I think personally, the way to the romantic romantic bit is the not not the ultimate goal is quite rightly the opposite. That's kind of the start of a relationship. But if you want to get to that level, you have to go through the friendship side first. I recommend, because you have to know the person you're looking because how can you feel romance for somebody who you do not really understand and know, because you are going to base it on the physical attributes which after a while will mean nothing because you got used to those physical attributes as well.

[12:32]

So what's going on? I come in after this. But I finished, so thanks. Well, I think these kind of dynamics can come up with friendships as well. I think whenever you've got, like expectations and you've got a sort of social contract where two people say, OK, well, this is what I expect of you. And I think like you've talked about this a lot and I really agree with you where things aren't verbalized, but people have expectations without being a romantic or a friendship relationship.

[13:07]

That's where one, you know, relationships of any sort can get into difficulty. I think, like if a friend thinks, oh, well, that person should get back to me by two days or so, I think, you know, it's just any relationship, really. That's my opinion.

[13:24]

So and I'd like to go back to Sasha's point, though, where she's talking about having two different speeds, so to speak. If I'm getting her right and one party is not moving fast, can't move at the speed of the other one. The other one is overwhelming in terms of demands or expectations. And I think that type of on balance, where you feel as though you have lost your self-control, you are to control what's coming from the other side is not so much your problem with you, but the other person may be.

[14:09]

They have been through many, many things in their past where they feel that if they don't go in all they're all in, that they will lose out. And how does one bridge that gap to create understanding with the other party that. No, my speed is you're making me uncomfortable at the rate at which you're going. But I do like you. But can we? Because some of the times what you are doing is that you're busy. As Errol said, you have other commitments.

[14:44]

You have a pattern in your life, that and other commitments that you can't just disband your life because somebody is coming all in and wanting you to be available. The answer and text messages all the time, you know, just on the spur of the moment, all the time.

[15:03]

We have commitments. We need to have a pattern. If your behavior can coincide with my my pattern, my life pattern, then maybe we can give it a go and you don't. It's not that you need to think that I'm doing other things. I don't want to talk to you or I'm seeing somebody else or all those things that create mistrust.

[15:28]

So how do you from the very beginning, start to establish those basic foundation pillars, so what you say and at that point I wouldn't know that I like them or not because I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but I haven't got to know them enough to know that I like them enough to continue, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's just very it's just very difficult from the are from the star.

[15:59]

Yeah. I think that's I think that's the basic compatibility issue isn't it. It's like the right of I think everyone I think there needs to be, as John said, there needs to be some momentum because otherwise it's just going to die. But it needs to be, whereas some people might be quite insecure, reattach the middle validation and need a lot of attention. Someone and it can be a difference. It can be a problem between someone who's got children and someone who doesn't have children and maybe doesn't have much else responsibility in their life.

[16:37]

And so they're looking for a lot of attention where someone else is very busy and full life. And I think that's that's one of the basic issues of compatibility. Like the...

Some people such as 'The Rules' advise on following tactics designed to make you appear less attached and less interested.

Is this a valid strategy or does the inauthenticity affect relationships?

We discussed this topic and a wide range of other topics such as Poyamory and Monogamy.

Transcript

[00:00]

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. This question has had me having nightmares like that, it just it just reminded me of a certain scenario that I was thinking, this is why I don't believe it's true, why I believe it is false because of this scenario. And then I've been having nightmares about this scenario last night. Oh, gosh.

[00:38]

You want to tell us what the scenario is or is that it wasn't a slip in something major just a day in a situation where it was over a long period of time, it's probably over like two years.

[00:50]

I kept seeing the same guy on this this thing on the website and we never really talk to each other. And then we got talking somehow. I was like a bit not sure about him, but we got talking. It was really weird and taking ages to text back and all the rest of it. Days like three days, four days, sometimes the message box. So I just fizzle out and then didn't see him speak to him again for like another year or something and completely forgot about the other time and then would kind of arrange to meet or and then he'd just go sit at the last second and then he would not actually arrange to me it was just kind of like, do you want me?

[01:34]

OK, then again, about a year later, I started talking again on a different website and it seemed a lot more interested this time year. Getting to know me more and all that sort of stuff seemed interested. So I was like, OK, let me go on this time and arrange to baby. So I was about to leave and everything and he just didn't respond. So I just didn't just delete him off my phone and whatever and then left it.

[01:59]

But I think that was kind of one of them. Treat it means keep from keen. And I think he thought that that was going to keep me hooked in and I just like, fizzle out. And then he kept liking me on the thing as well afterwards because he most of premium's you can't rely on my account and like him, I just just left it, left it physically now because I'm not playing I'm not allowed to play games. But I think that was one of them scenarios I amines CAPM key.

[02:24]

I was just looking for some of them, and there's a four page open that's gone, but it was this one recommends you take four hours minimum to reply to a text. You only see them once a week for the first month and only, oh, this is is this advice to be able to treat someone mean to keep them interested.

[02:54]

Yeah. All right.

[02:56]

But what do you think? Do you think that works?

[03:02]

I think that it's getting more and more complicated to make things work because there's so much. So much, so many fishes in the sea, I don't know how to put it, but I'm not very good at playing those games. To me, those are games. And I don't know, I did do it for a little while, but I tried to kind of date guys that. Kind of go with the same perspective as me, so we are both honest and very like it's consistent behavior.

[03:35]

So if a guy doesn't text me for three or four days, I just match them or whatever it is, because it should be consistent. And it's not showing me any respect, because if he's busy, I'm busy. So I'm really bad at that.

[03:50]

But I do believe that sometimes you do have to play a bit like you mean to keep them calm. So I did do that with a guy that I'm dating at the moment. There was consistency when we were talking, but I was not always available to meet up, so I tried to keep a little bit of a balance there, but it's really hard.

[04:15]

I don't really know how to explain, but I. Yeah, I do think there is a bit of a playing games. So so what did you do in terms of playing games? Uh. I am I playing games, it's just like I think when we begin to get to get interested in someone, it's really easy to just shut everything down and just focus on that and let your life you like. At the first message we get, we hear that.

[04:49]

And I was like, oh, my God, it's him. Let me reply.

[04:51]

And I was like, no, save yourself.

[04:54]

Just finish doing so. That's just putting yourself in check. Yes. But at the same time, if it was the old me, I wouldn't think about it. I had to go through bad experiences to kinda. OK, hold on, finish what you're doing or go and do this first and then come back and reply. So I changed my behavior if it was anybody else.

[05:18]

Also it was a family member or friend message. And if you're busy, you're going to put your phone down a message in Berkeley or anywhere.

[05:24]

You know, it really depends. I normally, quite honest, I don't always have my phone with me and at work I probably they know they probably won't reply straight away, but I tried to reply as soon as I can so I didn't change retasking.

[05:41]

So I'm always like, I need to focus on.

[05:43]

Yeah, I do, I do multitask a lot so I can do that. But and I work with my phone with me. But sometimes I really have to ignore it and just focus. I carry always carry my personal phone and my work phone with me. I have to work with my phones on all the time so I will see it. But I choose to reply or not and I don't really know. I'm really bad at playing games, but to me it has to be a bit of that.

[06:14]

I was more concerned about what I was doing. I think of the OK, hold on, because if I reply too quickly in my read this into OK, she's very available to get those. Those are the things that we hear a lot.

[06:29]

I don't think it goes very well when you when any of us move too fast. Yeah. Excited for you. I think it is better to sort of take things more of a natural pace and just I don't necessarily see it as a game. It's just it's just more of a natural pace.

[06:48]

Yeah, but I say this because I'm saying about it's really hard.

[06:54]

I find nowadays to have a proper conversation through a chat, for example, where you were in the past. It was normal, like, OK, oh, we texted me and after like five minutes I would text back and then we would have a conversation. Now it's pretty much like, OK, text today, reply. But tomorrow we will send another text. It's a it's a bit hard to keep up with that pace because you end up not having a proper conversation.

[07:23]

And how are you going to really develop some interest that you will go on a date or something like that? You're not available sometimes. Yes.

[07:32]

So that's that's I think that some women are better at that than others. And then at the same time, why is it why do I feel that? But guys don't really feel that. I don't know. Because I had guys that would reply straightaway, if I message, they would reply straightaway. I think it's a feminine or masculine thing. I think it just depends on the person. It's just some people are a bit more like, oh, yeah, we need to know what message about straight away.

[07:59]

So I really believe that they have to kind of like hold back and wait a bit more natural about things. And then there's some that we'll be like incessantly texting you every second. The guy is just like, whoa.

[08:12]

I was just wondering if if women feel that pressure more than men do. Also, no one thinks about it and is just go with the flow. Now, I think I think it's positive. I think men also get the same advice from some people. But I think I definitely like you. I think the part where it has some validity is if you're I think this is like your. Like being authentic, but then there's also like there's the core of who you are, but then there's also we live in a society with social creatures and there's this social pecking order.

[08:58]

And it's like we look at people in terms of like social value and the highest status is more attractive. And so there is something that. How you act, how you behave shows people like your way, where you are sort of in the pecking order and people are watching prickliest. And if you if you're willing to willing to please be willing to give up everything, then it seems that you have low social value. Yeah, but I think where it becomes false is like I'm not going to reply.

[09:48]

I've got you know, I'm going to set my timer for four hours. I think I think you have to have a certain level of momentum. And for me, like, if someone's a long time texting, it's just like you can't there's no, like, Spock to work off. And so I personally, I would be less interested or if I feel someone's playing a game, then I just like, completely uninterested. That's what I mean.

[10:19]

Like, I'm not good at playing games. I find myself. What I changed was that maybe on the beginning because I started online dating for. Two years ago, I think, and it was very on and off because I'm not very patient, I don't know how to play games. If people would text me, I would reply to them. If I was free, I was free. And I also had the unfortunate event of most of my friends went away.

[10:46]

So they moved back to their countries or they moved to other cities. So I had more time in my hands. And I don't think that gives me less value. I don't have less value for that is just the way things worked out.

[10:59]

It's not necessarily there's less value, but we're looking like an all animals day looking like if you have a dog, you have to make sure that you'll you'll see as the leader. Yeah. So. It's not that you have less value because of that, but it's that there are certain unconsciously we judge and so conscious of it, and it was my opinion consciously and unconsciously.

[11:29]

But I think there is.

[11:35]

There is a little bit of luck, if we know we can have something, then we're going to sort of strive for the next thing. And I think people are indicting all sort of striving for the best that they can get. And so there is it's not that you have less valuable. That is just that that would play some of the unconscious triggers. But I thought there is some research that they did.

[12:04]

There was what is researched by flies, but it is found that people who play games attract partners who play games. And so they have less. It's. The more authentic you are is the best long term dating strategy. Seller, in your situation, though, like you said, you were worried that people would think that your own life or whatever it is you said, you are busy, though. You work, you you're doing this. You do not what you choose to.

[12:40]

I don't know.

[12:42]

But then I guess it's not like we try to worry less about what they might be judging you.

[12:50]

But I think I came to my son and I don't think I don't think I changed into playing games. That's not what I meant. I think that I became more conscious about putting myself first and just finishing what I'm doing and then replying. So I'm not counting the time to reply. And I'm not doing that. I'm dating this guy for almost three months, so I'm not doing that. And I did not do that. But I was just very aware that I needed to do my things first because and this was due to past relationships where I had I think I am I give a lot.

[13:28]

If I'm like someone I do, I like to do nice things for them. And it's not the first time that I would do it. I say that they had me for granted and that to me was quick. Excuse me, it was quite insulting. And of course the relationship didn't carry on. So to me, it's just like I had to learn from a really bad relationship to kind of put myself first.

[13:53]

But it's really hard to keep a good, normal balance to it. And and to me, it was more that, like, I am still interested. I still want to have a good conversation with you, but I would do this first hour.

[14:09]

I am going and do that first whatever, and then I'll reply and and at the same time, I would give probably a better reply after I had done those things because I would be more focused on life and things ended up working.

[14:27]

All right. But just but I had but I had the same opportunity where someone was always texting, always very keen. And in the end of the day, they were playing games anyway. It's really hard to read into people, I could read what was going on, it took me a little while, but I did get where we were going. But it's just really difficult. But I just kind of I think it was I'm not playing games. It was just me, like kind of prioritizing me, not getting too involved too soon and just trying to save myself, if that makes sense.

[15:06]

I think I think there's something I think there is something that, like the old value comes across in the sense of, you know. Not exactly. Yes, I think this is a principle I have that people will give you the minimum that you'll accept. And that's like being able to set boundaries and say that I'm not going to accept anything less.

[15:43]

So generally speaking, though, because if somebody wants a certain standard for themselves, regardless of what other people are going to give them or not give, if they're going to still try to hold to their own standards of themselves over recent people.

[15:58]

Yes. Yes. So is being able to walk away from someone that doesn't fit, right? Yeah. Is going to treat you right. Like there's a level that this is what I this is what I'll accept and I won't accept anything less. And then people will generally rise to it someone. But then they were never going to be, you know, this concept of somebody...

We spend a lot of time trying to get into relationships. We spend a lot of time thinking and talking about our relationships. But have you ever defined what a successful relationship would be like for you?

Listen in as we discuss the topic from different perspectives and clarify what happy ever after would be for you.

Transcript

[00:00]

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. So if we start individually, we can be extroverts are going to right. So five minutes really thinking about what what would you have to have to have your personal happy ever after? And it may be that you want to move or turn your camera off or whatever while you think about that, and then we'll go into the into the groups.

[00:46]

So I'm going to be here for a minute while I had everyone else. I know some people who come in and just for the recording, because I always forget about that.

[00:59]

But if you're listening along afterwards, he also it because I think it's really important that you have your definition before you listen to anyone else. So the question is, what would happy ever after look like? And the answer is going to be different for each of us, but there probably are going to be some common themes, so. He would like to share what they discussed or their. Vision. I'll go first on the news for an hour. So this is going to be a good time to mention I, I am on that spectrum.

[01:44]

So for me, someone who understands the news, who understands that I might say the wrong thing occasionally and I might not react in the same way and I might not laugh. You joke. You don't get it. I actually have to ask. I'm sorry. Are you being sarcastic? Which isn't so I'm not being sarcastic. I'm genuinely asking how are you being sarcastic? Because I got so, uh. But yeah, just someone who likes to laugh as well because I'm a bit, I'm a bit silly.

[02:10]

I've got better sense of humor like a pun. So someone who is not too strict about things but I do like to set routines. I go in this day, that day and that day and night and then like gets disrupted. I got a bit like that because the way my brain works, so someone who's OK with my little sort of like what the word be, I think the way to be not certain way like little idiosyncrasies. Someone is OK with those.

[02:39]

Yeah, but, um, I'm pretty easygoing in every respect, so as long as they're all right with me forgetting to take the Benzal occasionally and talking, not talking over, talking over them when I watch to because I've already seen the film, I don't know what they're gonna know what's gonna happen other than that. Yeah, I'm pretty much fine as long as I'm not a huge drinker. So and anyone who goes out on the set, everyone I know, I'm not I'm not.

[03:01]

I'm not I'm not aware of that. But yeah. Over the night. Yeah. I'm pretty easy going to be honest.

[03:06]

Okay. So you want to be understood. Really. Yeah, understood. But also I just I understand because of my previous relationships that it's give and take on both sides. So, you know, as long as they are a bit patient with me, I'll be very understanding with them.

[03:20]

So, you know, it's really tricky for Sharon and anyone else. Shall I say something or just, you know, there's a little arrow in here coming to the rescue again for this silence?

[03:36]

Well, I just thought the silence was a bit deafening for me. Yeah, OK. So from my point of view. I suppose so with me, it's something I've not really had properly, my relationships, and I don't know what not, but it will be a much more closer connection. So it will be a case of a little bit like what was described just now. But it's I suppose it's. They have now, if there will be where I feel that that person is always on my side doesn't matter.

[04:19]

I'm not expecting that person to agree with me all the time because that will be unrealistic. But I expect them to be honest and they expect them to be have my best interests at heart. So basically, when they say something to me, it's because they are thinking the best of me. So if they say, I don't think you're right about that is going to go wrong, they're actually trying to prevent me from making a mistake.

[04:46]

I may not agree with the. But also to seem to agree to be able to talk really on things rather than deteriorating into some sort of I don't like I don't mind arguments, it can even be a heated argument for health care. But not just I don't know why, but it really has a very negative effect for me. I like to just be able to talk to people, discuss things. So for me, it's a case of saying. You know, working together through life's ups and downs, but I accept that there will be issues and problems, but so long as I feel that that person is always on my side, that for me creates a trust, a bond.

[05:37]

And that for me is the one, the most important things in a relationship that I know that I can trust them with whatever happens. And if I'm down. You know, if they told me this isn't going to work forever and I don't listen to her and I get on with it and it all blows up in my face just the way she said it was going to be, what it does is rolled up their sleeves and gets Maxin and helps me sort it out, because what that does next time round is for me to say I was I was an idiot.

[06:09]

I should sat there and listen. I didn't see what was coming for some reason. And, you know, I've got to pay more attention next time in my previous relationships. It's not been like that. I mean, I've had to make the decisions because there was a little dithering going on. And then when it did blow up in my face, the other person just stood on the sidelines and told me, I told you so. And, you know, I don't I don't particularly need that at that point.

[06:36]

I just need someone to help me out. Even if it was deserved, I would suggest that everyone makes a mistake. And therefore, if you are meant to be partners in life, because for me, I mean, in the last week we were talking about the fact that we had a lot of independent people and that's how the women were independent, rightly so. And they were quite openly saying, we don't actually need them. And as such, to buy me things or do this or do that because they're independent, they can manage their own life.

[07:06]

But actually, we all need somebody. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. So we need somebody to share our life with. It's a journey and we want to share that journey with someone. That means that someone is there to help you when you fall down and help you along and on Monday fall down, you are there to help them. Yeah. So for me, they're for the happily ever after isn't necessarily everything is going to be peachy, but that we can work through the rough times together without it getting becoming a negative event that we actually get through them together.

[07:39]

You know what, the bond is stronger because we help each other out. We got through it, OK? We might have got a little bit stressed at times. But the point is, you know, we we work through it like two adults. We discussed our issues and problems. We agreed our way forward. And, you know, we are stronger as a result. That's kind of where I am, but anyway, I don't know if that makes everybody confused now as to.

[08:09]

Nothing to me seems quite clear, and I like what the government says, is that basically a couple of really good marriages or relationships are based on what is it like, baby, when you have the whole world stops.

[08:29]

So the focus of each other is to like, if one if one's down and one's having a hard time or, you know, whatever the other ones are there for them, is that teamwork? Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Has anyone else or if anyone doesn't want to actually talk to that, but they can put it in check. Laura? Did you talk? Yeah, you still meet its. The muted on me. OK, yes, sorry if you've heard this before, my great, but for me that happy ever after, I guess the focus was on that word happy having been in quite an unhappy relationship.

[09:21]

And it was like, I want to feel happy in my relationship and I want to know that the other person feels happy in the relationship too. We we laugh together. We share love, a kind of emotional level, physical level, mental level, bizarre, maybe a spiritual connection to its connection. It's meaningful. It is mutually supportive and nurturing from this group. I've also loved learning has taken place the having skills, you know, the skills of communication.

[10:03]

Problem-Solving, what can we bring to a problem that's arising in our relationship? How are we going to deal with it so that it doesn't destroy our relationship would be really important as well, so that we can work together to support each other through problems and deal with the problems that arises from our dynamic in the relationship. Yes, so when I listen to that, what I'm hearing is. Is it's about fundamentally you've been happy and also the other partner being happy, and then it's about when you look at being happy.

[10:49]

It's like riding a wave. This is the metaphor that comes to mind, and it's about when the seas are choppy. And how do you navigate?

[10:59]

How do you balance and stay on top of that so that you you don't allow, like, the waves of life and rough seas to come between you, which I think is basically that the struggle that most relationships have is when times get tough, everything that they had was built on this fragile relationship, this fragile tie that when other things could come between them, tear them apart.

[11:34]

Is that yeah, yeah, yeah, I can kind of relate to that, the end of the match for the sea, calm waters, stormy waters riding the wave, but also like navigating the seas about the skills of sailing, about what you do, you know, dealing with the wind, et cetera. So it's not just like. Going with it, I guess you've got to try and proactively develop together the skills to deal with the rough, you know, stormy weather.

[12:16]

OK. And I just. Can I just add. For me, it's important to have mental stimulation. And a part of that is to be with somebody who, yes, you have shared and common interests, but having different interests as well so that we're not carbon copies of each other, we bring new and interesting ideas or experiences into the relationship and that that would keep me interested. So that will keep me happy.

[12:57]

That will keep you also. Being possessive, needy, living in each other's back pocket does not mean I don't have to see you every day.

[13:12]

I don't have to see you, you know, all the time.

[13:20]

We had a lively exchange of views in this podcast on how we should play the game of relationships.

We talked about the two main ways of viewing the games of relationships.

Then we got into the detailed games people sometimes play in relationships. For example, should you 'treat them mean to keep them keen?'

The Relationship Landscape. All this and more wisdom from;

The Scouse Guru

Heroic Erel

The Diplomat

and many more we haven't renamed yet!

Transcript

[00:00]

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. So tonight's meetup is about playing the game of relationships, I've got my game of Game of Thrones mug here. So first thing I think we can discuss in the breakout rooms, if you discuss. When I couldn't so I'm going to talk about our relationship has been, again, lasting again tonight. And what's your reaction, what's your feeling about that and what's your view?

[00:56]

It is often. Often this. Well. Often these people have a reaction to sometimes being called again. Okay, so we're going to split and see breakout rooms differently.

[01:13]

I'm sorry I didn't tell you.

[01:17]

You said to go to the breaking room.

[01:20]

Yes, a breakout room. Let me see if I can. To the breakout room. Did you get a link to click?

[01:28]

But I left it. But what what to do in this briefing room.

[01:31]

OK, so the breakout rooms for more private conversations. So you're going to discuss the topic in smaller groups.

[01:39]

Mm hmm. Yeah. OK, and then. I just want to come back to. Yeah, OK. And then we're going to come back into the main room, where will we discuss to discuss anything anyone wants to talk about that came across in the breakout rooms and then we'll have a more general discussion.

[02:05]

OK, again, I be.

[02:11]

Joining us, OK? Hi, Robbie. I was just actually replying to your message. Yeah, I found I found it was in the meetup calendar.

[02:26]

OK, yeah. Sometimes people people done is kind of buried in. Okay, so what we did tonight, as you saw, was playing the game of relationships. So how it works is we have while people are joining this, others, you don't have a breakout group, breakout rooms. So the smaller groups where you can have private discussion. So I'll send you a link to see join one of those groups and then we're going to come back here and have a big general discussion about what they're discussing in the groups is the question is in terms of what I'm talking about tonight, relationships being a gang, life being a game.

[03:14]

What's your reaction to that? Do you agree with it or disagree with it? How do you feel about that and say that clear enough? Yeah, makes perfect sense. Yeah.

[03:26]

OK, all right. So going to actually to your breakout room two. So if you just. You should get a link oh. Sorry, Rabbi, I jumped off the bed quickly, but I think we're halfway through it being something I know now, if you just joined the just join the group and.

[03:55]

Yeah, yeah. Then you yeah. There probably been more discussion. We just joined and then when there's a chance just joining. Yeah, that's fine. Now, we're sorry about that. No problem, can you get it? Uh, yeah, but you can. You can. Everyone stay in their discussions. I'm sorry. That's OK. That's really good. You know what? I love the game of Blic and how to play well.

[04:29]

I listen to a podcast called The Reality Revolution. Brian Scott, I know ever is is it's amazing. It's a really good podcast. Kathleen has everyone back. OK, so did anyone have any interest in discussions, any interesting forced? Joshed. This is Sheila and Sheila. Hi. I think most of us, if not all of us, agreed that to use the term game doesn't sit well with us in terms of relationship. Personally speaking, I can see the concept of a game and I can see there are similarities in terms of rules.

[05:27]

Players in quote marks. Again, the word players doesn't sit right with me in terms of relationship. But I guess, you know, again, concept of being winners and losers. But again, that's whether you're playing as a team, as a couple together or playing as individuals, therefore being a winner and loser. But I think, in fact, I believe that, you know, you don't necessarily know all the rules going in. If you're in a relationship, you you have to, like, find out the rules as you go along.

[05:58]

And everybody has different rules. Thank you for that. OK, I heard you say something, it's just I am beginning to feel more like the you know, it's not the dating stage that's just like a game because you don't know at that stage what you're getting yourself into. But once you're in a committed relationship, I think it's more if it was a team thing rather than two people competing against each other. OK, yes. Anyone else? Is that the general feeling in our group as well?

[06:49]

We sort of put forward a slightly different angle to it and by saying if there was any positive.

[07:00]

So if there were any positives to come out of the game situation, then you could say that you're entering into a win win game rather than a win lose game. And by default, there will be rules. And those rules could be authenticity, openness, communication, trust, the basic fundamental things for a relationship. And if as long as everybody's aware of them, then you could both be winners of that game. And I guess if one person is not fulfilling their part of the bargain on that, then the game might not be successful, I guess.

[07:45]

And Armytage, about I wasn't sure if you can talk or. So you mean it's. I was going to say I do agree with it being a game, but not in the sense of like your playing and your being conniving. I do think life is a game and you've got to play your cards right. And in a relationship, you need to go into it knowing who you are and what you want out of that. And you need to set your standards, your values, and the person needs to know what is expected of them.

[08:25]

Coming in from the start, so I think the yeah, I do agree with it being a game. OK, I you. So I'm going to the reason I set this as a thing is it's similar to we were talking and I was talking with, I think a couple of a couple of weeks ago about you remember we were discussing about love as a currency and you had a strong reaction to that. And there's a subtlety to to both of these ideas that really underpin a lot of the problems that people have in relationships.

[09:09]

So, for example, when I was talking about love being a currency, it wasn't because obviously meaning it was actually because what I'm saying is, of all the currencies is the one that we that we value the least in terms of our giving our attention, I refer to it. So. Okay. So I want to put some more detail, too, to the concept of life and relationships being a game. And the best way I know how to do that is from there is a book from James class and he talked about finite and infinite times.

[09:49]

And so finite game is a game that we're used to. I'm just going to mute everyone so that there is no background reaction. That's. Mean yourself if you have something to say, so. Okay, so there are finite and infinite times, so finite game is what we're familiar with in terms of it has agreed laws. It's a game like football. It's a game like tennis or any of those kind of games that we used to it. It's got agreed.

[10:29]

And this is what some of you picked up on, is that it's got agreed upon rules, but they're imposed rules. So there is and by definition, there's a limitation and there's a winner and a loser. So if we look at so in America, they've got the elections going on and the election is a finite game. They can only be a winner and that can only be a loser. And there's a time when it's over. And so.

[11:06]

In the final game that we have, like titles like if whatever row you have, if you if you play the game of law and you qualify as a lawyer, you're a lawyer. And that doesn't change. And so.

[11:24]

And today's winners and losers and the fight to win is fierce, fighting for control. So the infinite game is a game that doesn't end. So it's a game without boundaries, it's a game that we define by ourselves, and it's a game that deepens over time. So if you have someone who's an artist who loves art. There is an infinite game because you can always get better. There's people who might win this prize or whatever, you know, kind of you think of an art prize, but, you know, like people win the Pulitzer Prize for writing.

[12:07]

But it doesn't mean that they're forever they forever won the game. It means at that moment in time, they were at the top. But it's going to change. And, you know, music is again, is an infinite game. We have the charts and someone's at the top, but no one is at the top always. And so it isn't so much about winners and losers, but it's how can I play the game and get better?

[12:37]

So. Dieting is often spoken about as being a has been again, because it's the diet. And if you look at the way that people treat the dating game, it's players. It's people who feel that they're won by if they can sleep with a girl, if they can get the most attention, if they can do all of those things, they're playing a finite game.

[13:06]

And and, yeah, of course, and there are relationships where someone of want to be in control and they will see themselves as winning by getting their way, but they're playing it with a finite game. And if you look at a lot of the relationship advice, it's technique to send this text. It's say they do this thing so that you get a certain result and that's playing a finite game, whereas an infinite game is about deepening the connection, deepening the conversation.

[13:33]

It's about it's not about winning or dominating, but it's about developing the connection. It's about exploring rather than than winning, it's about dealing with what's now rather than let you win, and therefore you're always a winner. So one of the problems is that. In work, in business and things, people play and play a finite game, so someone who seems like someone who sees business as a as a finite game is how much money can you win?

[14:16]

And. So they're driven to be like destroy the competition, but actually no one ever wins. You know, when you look at those charts of Jeff Bridges is the richest man Bill Gates was for a long time, but no one's ever won because it's never over. There's no there's no finish point. And so a lot of the problems that people have are someone feels like that that wasn't proud of them, they felt like they were a loser at school, that they have this.

[14:53]

Insecurity, and so they have this drive to prove themselves, they have they feel like they need to have more and more success. To get away from the feeling of cost. But the label comes from the past, and so the feeling is from the past and no amount of success that you have now is ever going to change that feeling that you had back then. So when people. Play. A finite game. Like rejection in indicting warm relationships is all consuming, and so one of the reasons people are so devastated that a break up is because it feels good, because that they've got a finite game attitude to it, like this person's gone.

[15:46]

Therefore, I've lost. I'm never going to have that back. And if you treat it so when I'm saying about playing the game of relationships, what I'm talking about is that. If you ever. Wants to love and be loved, then you're playing the game of relationships, it's whether you know it or not. But you're actually. You're in the game. It's an infinite game. It's not like there's winners or losers, but it's different places.

[16:22]

And. So relationships are an infinite game. So there's never an end to it and it doesn't matter what state you are, because there's this whole I'm going to show you later about the landscape of relationships, but wherever you are is a place in the game of relationships.

[16:44]

And it's about if you don't like where you are, it's about moving to a different place. So the idea of playing the game of relationships is. That you're conscious of how you're doing it, because when you're conscious of how you're doing it, then that means that being in that relationship, it means you're not playing passive aggressive or not playing victim and and control. You're not playing the power games that people play, the drama games that people play.

[17:20]

But you're you're like bringing it to awareness. And so it's about doing relationships more consciously.

[17:30]

Bellamy Riley, if I've got your name right, you've got your hand up. Did you want to talk?

[17:34]

Yep. So you were talking about, like, proving someone wrong.

[17:41]

So when something happens, like when someone says that I cannot do something, so our tendency is to like, prove someone wrong. So if you tell me, like, I cannot, like, do some kind of heart, I cannot win a particular game, then it's very common for us to prove someone wrong. So it's been in our genes. So how would you actually like differentiated and how do you recognize when you are playing like a finite game on infinite game?

[18:09]

Okay, so if you're driven by an insecurity, which is to prove someone wrong. To accept the label that you're a loser or you've lost or you're a failure means that you've said that the game is over. Because if if the game is still playing, then you kind of lost. Does that make sense? Yep, yep, so it's it's it's when we put it into a full context, it's when we haven't really looked at or been conscious of what we're doing or how we're playing it.

[18:56]

And so...

Friendships can be deeply rewarding and also deeply painful when they go wrong. In this episode we discuss relationship problems that ended up touching on the biggest questions in life.

Transcript

[00:00]

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. I've not really done a lot of work in terms of friendships, so I'm not really clear on what people want to talk about and what the biggest issues are going to be. So if we talk about. In the group's. Really, what you'd like to get out of how you like your relationship friendships to be improved.

[00:42]

Any problems that you have in your friendships? And then we'll come back and go from there, because we've got to have some new people just to remind everyone that we record the audio of what was discussed in the main room. And but what was said in a bright carriage is private, so. Yes, sir, we only the audio and first time. Right, so. He wants to sort of sum up some issues that came up in breakout rooms.

[01:27]

I don't know whether I don't mind. So basically what we can do with shamers in order to. To attract a friend, especially when you've got to be a friends yourself and show, in other words, it's about being comfortable within within yourself, and then once you're once you've got that level of comfort, when you meet another human being, regardless of gender or age, that person will automatically be attracted to you because of the quality that your students from yourself.

[02:07]

So I gave an example yesterday where I went on when I went on a walk with another Meetup group, which had never done before, and my expectation wasn't negative. I wasn't thinking I'm going to go on a two hour walk with a lot of the people who we don't know and they don't know me and I'm going to be bored and will I enjoy it. I just went with complete serenity in my own head, and when I arrived, I instantly got so wimbish, like all grown.

[02:41]

And then we spent the next two hours walking around up in a really good laugh and I really enjoyed myself. But at the end, once I had listened to the other people, other people's conversations whilst I was there, I was aware that although I would be able to hold a conversation with them, they were compatible, compatible with myself and I wasn't compatible with them. So it was like like it had automatically attracted, like by me not doing anything.

[03:16]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's that's one of the key things, I think, of the issues underlying friendships. And I was discussing. That's some friendships can be hard to start, like one party will recognize traits in another person that they've just met that they like, but they're barriers that the other person presents. And sometimes it's a bit of a challenge. You almost have to work at it to get through that, to get to that friendship.

[04:01]

And I was setting an example with myself.

[04:05]

A friend of mine that I met at university, we were in the final year together and the initial meeting was one of she just didn't like me at all. She just was like this, you know, but I liked her.

[04:25]

And I know we're best friends. And she lives in London. And, you know, we have been friends ever since.

[04:34]

But it took effort, it took a lot of time and I had to, I think, suppress some of some of my natural instincts, behavior to not antagonize her and to allow her to see that I meant well and and study partners who were in the same group and study group. And so we got to know each other and. You know, I was a bridesmaid and her daughter's godmother, I mean, we're that close. But it took it took months.

[05:14]

And that was really developing the trust and then once you trust it, yes, I think there was a lot of anger in her and I think she saw me as.

[05:25]

I hate to say this, but she she was at the time we were like polar opposites and she didn't recognize that she had things going for her that I didn't have.

[05:37]

She she's an accomplished musician, she has a beautiful singing voice. She has been on television singing and well, this is in Jamaica, OK? And so very talented and and a pretty girl.

[05:51]

But she was twice my size. So for her, it's like, OK, you're looking skinny thing, you know, sort of thing.

[06:01]

And I'm large, but I can't sing to save my life, OK?

[06:08]

I'm not a single I'm so she had things that I admired and looked up to and I, you know, and I had given up on my music lessons and all the rest of it. And here she is. Great. You know, going off to competitions abroad and all the rest of it. And I'm in all of her.

[06:32]

But she just looked at me and said, oh, that's the pretty girl that everybody's after. I don't like her kind of thing, you know, and I don't that's not that's not me that's on the outside, you know.

[06:45]

It took a while for us to get. To the point where we could actually emerge as friends. Yeah, I can see I can see how that relates to what Alan was talking about in terms of, you know, relationships are barriers are really it's a self that puts the barriers there. And so, yes, I can see some commonality of that. Did anyone? I like to start from problems because I think when you've got a problem, you're able to to analyze that is, did anyone have any problems that they wanted to talk about?

[07:32]

Yeah, actually, I had one that I was sharing with the group, so I have a very good friend. We've been best friends for five years and the last few months, a few weeks, I feel like we are growing apart and I'm not sure.

[07:51]

I feel like I'm changing, but she's not changing the same direction and she's going through some things as well, and it makes me feel like she's less open actually towards me and what is happening with me and she's less empathetic.

[08:07]

That used to be and I confronted her about it today, that I felt like she was insensitive towards me a few days ago and it just really bounced off her and she just really didn't get it. And I'm not sure if I should. Try to have another go, like in a really structured way, explaining her where I'm coming from, what I feel, or maybe it's time that I just kind of like. Let it go a little bit and let it be a little bit closer, friendship and.

[08:41]

Focus on the relationships in my life. This sort of relates to we were discussing we sort of had a breakout room here in the main room where.

[08:59]

Sometimes friendships, people change and then the friendships change. And so I think you have people in your life for some maybe for the lifetime, some for less parts. It's like as we change in different stages of life. Relationships change. Do you feel like where you met? And the friendship was at its strongest, all the situations like the situations you used in her life, have they changed? Yeah, I feel like we are in different life situations and I feel like I used to have most of my life, I wasn't conscious of that.

[09:54]

My whole life revolved around my relationship. So like, I was always in long term relationships, but it just I just had too much emphasis in my life in relationships and.

[10:06]

Those kind of things, and I'm going through therapy at the moment, and I really feel like something is shifting in me and I don't want to live like that anymore. I want to have fulfillment in my life. And then if I have a relationship, that's great. But I feel like she's still just a little like her mind is like all about dating and that will fix everything. And I can't relate to it. And I don't want to be one of the things.

[10:34]

But but otherwise, she has so many good qualities as a person and. When I got to know her, but now I also feel like she's kind of going through some sort of mid-life crisis and she's changing like I think she used to be more compassionate, but she's not like that anymore. And I'm kind of puzzled. Have you asked her anything about her situation? Yeah, like we talk about her situation all the time, but. But, you know, like.

[11:11]

When she feels down, you know, and she's explaining telling me her thing, you know, I need to understand what when I say what is bugging me, she's just brushing it off, you know, and it doesn't feel nice, like.

[11:33]

I think Alan Alan made a good point earlier about forcing the issue, I suppose it sounds like you you've you reached out to try and mend the relationship, to find out what is wrong, to see if it could be salvaged, if you could be close together again. It sounds OK. And if she is if she understood what you meant. So if it was a meaningful conversation where she really understood what you meant, but she is still rebuffed and said, no, I'm going my own way, then I suppose you can't you can't force the issue.

[12:12]

At the end of the day, you cannot only self. And if you are healing yourself, then you know you have to you have to go on your own journey, I suppose.

[12:23]

Yeah. Oh. No. Yeah, I think so. But you've got to be. You got to be true to yourself, I think, and without. Without without being desperate for other people's company, hmm, this is, again, the point that Alan was making, quite rightly. Yeah, you've got to be comfortable with the company will come back and change. Change is good. Change happens all the time. We can't have because we are not the same people that we were when we were first born grow and change as a person ourselves.

[13:04]

And things don't stay static. Change is always supposed to happen in life. That's how better things come along. Hmm. That's my belief. No, thank you. I was just going to say in the back on the back of that is that. They've left then they weren't meant to stay. Left, they were never meant to stay, so. I think would be an injury, we will look at things through the level of our own understanding and the level of our understanding about anything, least of all somebody else we know almost any of us here truly know about ourselves.

[13:49]

Probably not a lot. And we're here to ultimately discover ourselves and and find out how we can interact with other people more successfully with more children. I'm afraid that's got 10 friends. I have got probably about 10 close friends. So I'm not here because I'm laughing friends, but I'm here because I'm looking to get better relationships with the friends and better relationship with Michelle. But, you know. Nobody ever walked away if they were meant to stay and.

[14:25]

What we've seen before in regards to why people go well, we don't know the answer to that because our level of understanding is is absolutely mind youth and we we'll try and ask them. They might not give us the answer. And even if they do, they might not give us an honest answer. That's where the acceptance comes in if someone's walked out. You just got to let them go and move forward in your life because your life is more important to them even.

[15:00]

Mhm. Yeah.

[15:02]

I think sometimes you need to be cynical and just think to yourself, does this person take away more than that.

[15:12]

I know that can feel quite harsh, but at the end of the day we have a very short time on this earth and also maybe even shorter than we think it might be. So why should we spend it with people that. Take away more than they give. I know that sounds cynical, but I, I know. Also, I think that. Friends come in different packages and feel different needs in in a person. They have different purposes. So I find as I have gone along my friendships, it's almost like they alternate depending on what's happening in my life or their lives or if they need me, if I need them, depending on what's what's happening.

[16:08]

Then one friend will probably be closer at a particular point and another friend. So it moves around. But there's still all we're still all friends.

[16:20]

And also in my situation, I find that if my friends, I keep my friends separate in a sense, I don't try to make them become friends, too. I don't force that. So when I'm with one friend that I give that person my full attention, that's my friend, I'm dealing with you, but I don't try to put two or three of my friends together and force them to be friends because I'm your friend, but also. My friends, I go to different friends, so different things, I get different things from from different from from from from from each one of my friends.

[17:07]

And Alan, you have a small group of people that you turn to, you know, most of the time.

[17:16]

And also, I suppose there are layers of people who you reveal your inner self to, some more so than others. So, you know, there are some who.

Every relationship hits a problem when our view or vision differs from our Partners.

Slaying the Dragon is the step of the Fairy Tale that everyone skips. Every Prince and Princess had an ordeal before they lived happily ever after. That ordeal is overcoming the problems that will otherwise block your happy ever after.

Transcription

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. So the topic we're going to talk about tonight is slaying the dragon. And slaying the dragon is the metaphor for the problems in a relationship and how you resolve those problems. So. When we going to break out rooms I'd like you to think about for a minute now, is the relationships in your life where.

There's a problem that's coming between the two of you and so these can be all kinds of relationships, romantic relationships, whether it's friendships, whether it's work, relationships, wherever there's a problem.

Between you and the other person stopping the relationship from really flowing. So if you think about those relationships now, what are we going to discuss in the breakout rooms is what is making the relationship a struggle? What is the problem that's come in between the two of you? Perhaps examples might be it might help if everyone writes in the chat box. Examples that they have of a problem that's hindering their relationship. This can be any kind of relationship because we're looking at a process rather than the actual details here.

And while everyone's everyone's doing that, is there anyone that has a problem that isn't too emotionally sensitive that they would be happy discussing? We can use as an example. And, Carol, to add anything specifically there, would you say, for example, that we can use OK for for for us?

I believe it was lack of communication. So in our relationship, there wasn't anything in any event. So there was no infidelity. There was no abuse. There was no there was no particular specific thing that you could point at and say this was caused the problem. Except that I will say that. It was because we didn't really talk to each other about the things that I suppose we put up with things rather than talk to each other about it. Can that eventually, I think, took its toll?

OK. OK, and so if you weren't able to resolve it and that led to the end of the relationship. Yeah, well, it's a bit more complicated than that. I mean, she basically got to a point where in her mind it was finished and she basically kind of said, right, this is it, we need to get divorced. And and that was it.

OK, OK, so come on. OK, is anyone anything else come up in the groups that anyone would like to discuss?

So I was going to say, Rob, that for me, my my girlfriend, when I went in, she was quite needy, like she had mental health issues. And and I think after about sort of three or four years, she she improved quite significantly and she actually turned into a different person in some respects. So she went from being a massive introvert to being quite extroverted. And it was actually difficult for me to I felt like I had to know I had to learn to get to know her again.

I felt like it was a different but. In some respects, we go for. OK. All right, so what I'm what I'm going to do is I'm going to just talk about my ideas because the Slay the Dragon, then how many people are clear on what I mean by Slay the Dragon?

Yeah, OK. All right, so I'm going to show you my ideas on why I think slaying the dragon is important and how we go about there and then we can use that as a framework. To look at more specific, so. Right. One minute they are going to share the screen just so sometimes visuals are easier to. To get an idea of what I'm saying, okay, I'm. But let me, if I can, move this box.

Okay, so where do we go first? Slightly slain the dragon is really about and when you have the prince and the princess, like in a fairy tale model, then.

What most people miss out is Prince means princess, and then they fall in love and live happily ever after. But the missing piece is that in the fairy tale, the prince and princess have to lift some, which is curse that slay the dragon and have to go through some ordeal. And that is the key for them having a happy ever after now.

So what exactly is the dragon? So the problem in relationships is like Timewell says, when you marry someone, you marry a set of problems. And if you didn't marry them, you wouldn't have those problems, but you'd have a different set of problems. And John Gottman talks about 68 percent of problems are unresolvable. So let's look at exactly what that is and how you can manage that within a relationship.

So basically, the problem is that when two people get together, they got a different idea. They both have different views. They've got different slightly different values, perspectives, experiences of where they see that they're going. So we might talk about in the big picture, you know, we both want kids. We both want this kind of life. But even when we're agreeing on that, the specifics of what it's going to look like are very different. And so the differences between our views and where we're both heading is the dragon that we have to slay.

Does that make sense to everyone so far? Yeah, think so, right, the big things that people argue about are money, sex, children, how you raise them, in-laws, friends, career, all of these kind of things and the differences that one person might like to be really frugal. One person might see money as fun, sexy type and quantity children one parent might restrict. One parent might be really relaxed. One person might want to see themselves as a small family unit and not have much contact with others.

One might be really social and want people living around the house. So let's talk about what kind of problems. People have so let's just stop there for a minute, let's look at the chart and if anyone wants to. Stepan. It's interesting said that John Gottman said that six people would say what was the 68, 68 percent of problems unresolved?

So they got problems into solvable problems and unsolvable unresolvable problem, unsolvable problems.

I mean I mean, considering there are quite a lot of relationships that at least go on for a while, that seems like a no. Yes, but what they what they mean by that is. That the problems are. The problems are personality differences. There's value differences there, slight ways in like instead of the big five that people argue about is money, sex, children, the extended family. So. If we look at a chart, so let me see what I it's not necessarily that.

Documentation's OK, okay, but the things that people disagree on, there's a pattern. So what it means is when people disagree in a long term relationship, it's the same problem reoccurring over and over again. Does anyone recognize that in their relationships? Yeah, yeah, so it's usually like one person is always like one person leaves their clothes lying around on the floor, one person, those kind of things. So they kind of patterns of behavior, which is based in differences in the way that you see the world, the way you operate in the world.

So let me get back to. This site, these are the problems and. Move that, okay, so typically I write something on this last week that someone said, well, you know, like, I'm always compromising in my relationships and then it doesn't work out, but. Typically, people say that you compromise in a relationship. So this is the difference between them is is that basically the dragon and compromises like you go halfway and you both give up something.

But what that means is that Niva is happy. So they're both getting a substandard result. I just mean, this is where the basis is for people to settle in relationships. So I so rather than so if you've got past here, you've got person B here on C, Pilar Opposite's.

When you slay the dragon, basically what you're doing is you're making a point C, which is what I would call like a sculpted solution. So when you have a compromise, it means that you give up something in order for the full harmony. And so what eventually happens is you basically lose yourself and you don't get what you want and you expect and hope that the other person gives up what they want for the sake of the harmony. But eventually what that means is never, never is happy.

So the relationship basically isn't working for either side. So when I'm talking about a sculpted solution, what I mean is when you understand the differences between you, when you understand where the problem came from, you're able to. Grow said, rather than give up something, you're basically growing. And your understanding each other at a higher level, so.

Got a little bit out or ahead, so for me, problems are really the gateway to deeper understanding and deeper connection. A chance to understand more about each other. So. When we look at the closeness of a relationship is about how intimate we are and the intimacy that we have is based on how much we show the other person and how much they we see of them. So the way that humans connect is through self disclosure, is through understanding each other at a higher level.

So when we like strangers, we just judge on face value people we like. We have a little bit of a snapshot from social interactions, friends. We know a little bit about that personality. We know what they like. We know what they like to be around close friends. We might share our hopes and hopes and fears, but family, we have more. Affiliation, they're part of who we are. So. So it's really when you have a problem, what you've got up here.

You've got kind of an iceberg and you've got the stated reason that someone said in the. Above is like what's above sea level, and so that's what we work off, but underneath that, there's all these assumptions and sense of identity and all these kind of things that underpin the real problem. And so slaying the dragon is about uncovering all of this. And. So what I'm talking about, the sculpted view, like John Wanamaker said, that 50 percent of advertising is wasted, but I just don't know which half.

And in the same way, most of our beliefs are wrong, but we just don't know which ones. So when we go through life, you know, like we if you look back at the history of civilization, it's full of assumptions that are wrong, that the earth is flat, that we're at the center of the universe, all of these things that over time, as we develop our knowledge, we learn we were operating on a false premise.

And the same way in a relationship, we'll find that most of the things that we think that we want, the things that we think that we really value are really important to us. Often actually wrong. And so the way that slaying the dragon and sculpting is in having the communication to be able to talk about what the real problem is, to be able to analyze. Exactly. What why you how the assumptions, the beliefs that you do? And then in finding that you're able to find what's actually true and what.

It's just something that you misled, misinterpreted, and then you go for this to come to. I like point C in where we can. A point in here, so it's not a compromise, but it's something where we've both grown to to a better solution. But let me just go back. So does that make sense so far? Tell me if I'm leading you anywhere. I'm I'm I'm struggling, said for me, a compromise is is if you have like three warring parties, then they compromise.

This way you find a solution. Isn't that. OK, I think this is a matter of. Syntax really is really what this compromise mean. Yes, Nancy. Yes, but mostly compromised. Means that people compromise their beliefs. Yeah, I want to agree.

And so once you've compromise, you believe you've compromised who you are. OK, and if you still are if you still believe it, but you say, OK, I believe this, but I'm going to do this.

Your actions are out of line with what you believe. Yes, they say, but but you can have a compromise without compromising yourself. Yeah, so so what I'm saying is, is rather than compromise, I believe this, but I'm going to do this rather than compromise in that way. You work on what other beliefs you're talking about behavior that.

No, no. Yet compromise is when you change your behavior, but you don't change your beliefs. And we have an example. Like a working life example. OK, so thank you, Margaret. So I can think of one that happened between me and my son, for example, yesterday, but I don't think it was a wee compromise. It wasn't like a belief behind. It was just Wilmont. It one thing going to know if I wanted another thing.

So we had to find a win win situation, which is not right. We didn't really have to compromise our beliefs in that scenario. So if you got a situation where it's about compromise and beliefs, you you able to talk about that?

It was only a little I just wanted to go shopping and I knew I was going shopping just to get food shopping or go on my own last minute. He says, you know, I'm not feeling very well. I was the only one right to go and whatever. And I said, well, I don't really feel like going on my own to feel more secure. He came with me and ended up just being a compromise. He was happy to call me if it meant that he was allowed to buy an extra room that you wanted as soon as it saved enough money.

So he didn't have to wait for it. And he was happy to do it and he was happy to come out shopping like that.

And then so I got what I wanted and he got something else that he wanted.

OK, OK, so. So what? Kind of what you did with sorry, sorry. Sorry, but isn't there a difference between negotiation and compromise and in some instances, some instances, it's it's really negotiating to get something done that has to make sacrifices.

Sometimes I was willing to make a sacrifice at that point. And you just said, no, you know, I'll come with you. So in that scenario, obviously, we all need to make sacrifices sometimes as well.

Okay, so it wasn't really like it wasn't a big sacrifice. It was a sacrifice you were willing to to make in order to get a small example.

OK, so that's a sacrifice is actually compromising and going backwards. Whereas I actually like having something where someone says you can have this if I have as a bargaining state is actually going forward. So once at once.

But yeah, OK. But let's look at a problem that would break a serious relationship.

OK, so one wants a child, one doesn't want a child, for example.

Okay. Because that is something, Soki, that you're willing you would rather leave the relationship than than give up on. So there there are negotiations, like you said, that could work to fix a small problem in order to move forward. But what we're talking about, the problems that break relationships are things like the baby don't want a baby in the move house across the world and not wanting to do that, those kind of things. There are problems that break relationships.

And so a compromise can't work really in there because someone is giving up something that they really care for in order to preserve the relationship. Does that make sense? Yeah, so so what I'm talking about there, where is that kind of problem that's going to break the relationship is you have to. Then work out, what do you really want? And so in the same way, it's sort of in the same process that what you did was you worked out.

You went kind of a layer of what you know, why is it really important to you? Why is it really why don't you want to do this? Why don't you want to do this? And then you were able to find a middle ground. So it's similar in that sense. But it's it's about understanding more of the person. Is understanding what that really means to them so so in terms of if it's about a baby, then you need to get to the truth of it.

Is there any point of, like, commonground? And so why why does one person want the baby? Why does the other one definitely know? And there's going to be all kinds of assumptions and beliefs about that is going to be like.

I hated my childhood. It was horrible. I don't want to bring someone else up into that childhood. I need to feel secure. I need to feel like I've got a certain amount of money that I can bring a baby into the world or someone else might be like, I need a baby because I'm not going to feel complete without a baby. I need a baby because I need that love. And sometimes people who want babies isn't like the baby isn't going to solve the problem.

But there's a problem that they're looking for connection. They're looking for love. They're looking for belonging. And they think a baby is going to give that to them. Does that make sense? Yeah, so is trying to find out what's behind that door. I for one or not one.

Yeah, and if you really get to me and you understand each other the deepest, deepest level and you can appreciate you got lucky, like it's really important to you that you want to. Baby, I'm not will s not willing. You know, there's nothing on me that's changing. It's really important to me.

That's when, you know the relationship is going to work and we can't come to a compromise at that point or one's not willing to give the little for the other or vice versa.

Yeah. And that's when and then there was so much animosity because, you know. Exactly. The relationship just isn't going to work because it's something so key. And so and so you even uncover the solution or you get clear on what is the breaking point of the relationship. That's why I think it's OK to talk about these things prior to getting into a relationship to have sort of sad things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, before you get like white people got married without ever having discussed this. So mostly we just stumble into relationships. Let me just go back, because I think there's a little bit more on here before we discuss it a bit more. OK, so. Right, so now dragons are really a metaphor. And so this is Joseph Campbell and Joseph Campbell just basically studied. He spent his life reading books and then looking at the meaning behind them.

So he he came up with what's called the modern mayfly, the hero's journey of what the key stages of basically every story that's ever been told.

And then he looked at what was what the metaphor and symbology behind it was and what he says. The dragons basically represent greed. And so he said there's a difference between a European version of the Dragon and the eastern version of the Dragon in their mythologies. But the Europeans are lucky. The Knights, where he was slay and dragons were basically gods, things like gods, like heaps of gold and virgins. And it's not that he can make use of them.

It's about greed, it's about the ego and what he says is basically the ego is our dragon's cage. So the point my point in including that is that basically underneath here. And as in Vladimir Vasiliev in martial arts, and he says the goal isn't...

Who are you?

It's the question others always ask -implicitly if not explicitly -when they first meet you.

Do you know clearly yourself?

On what level?

And how do you express who you are in a way that is authentic and encourages deeper exploration?

This is what we explored on the call.

Transcript

[00:00]

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. OK, so we've still got a few people to join. I expect that will be joining us in the next 10 minutes. But rather than everyone wait, I think what it might be best to do is we'll go into breakout groups and just to ask each other the topic of the day, today's meet up career.

[00:42]

And it's just a chance to get to know people. In a little bit more detail. OK, so he had an interesting how did most people respond?

[00:58]

At this point, I want to look to the question of who you are and generally how how did it feel?

[01:10]

Really awkward. Yeah. I think it was quite comfortable because we were such a small group and we were all kind of one, I think.

[01:22]

OK, so what I'm interested in is what were the different answers that people had?

[01:34]

I think for ourselves, we was kind of associating ourselves, relating ourselves to our circumstance with which which we want to. Well, what we're challenged with, like trying to change, like relationship status or trying to.

[01:54]

Stablish Will Hermes. So we didn't identify ourselves, such as about usually what people would do through hobbies, interests. It's because of the nature of this meeting is themed. We we associated ourselves with our status where we are. And what kind of Drew was, hey, I guess we take.

[02:18]

I don't think we're going into any philosophical discussions, at least not while I was desperately trying to connect the. And who are you as a person or personality or I think. Well, I took it literally as a question. What's your background? What are you trying to achieve? I think the rest of the group at the time was discussing a case that was in terms of relationships, because that's the context.

[02:46]

Yes. OK, what about other groups?

[02:52]

I was pretty much similar in our group. It was pretty much, you know, this is my age, this is where I live free and all that sort of thing. This is what I like to do, this demographic and psychographic a group.

[03:09]

We took it a bit further and we can't discuss the tests that we took earlier. And what if we agree with the style and related to that?

[03:18]

Okay, so which test is that the most Brixham and the attachment or the love language mainly.

[03:25]

Okay.

[03:26]

We also had a discussion of about friendships, the types of people who we gravitate towards in terms of developing friendships and whether or not sometimes we need to change those boundaries or those frames that we put around the types of people that we think we are friends with or should become friends with. And maybe we should get rid of those framing parameters and and be more be less choosy.

[04:01]

Maybe we'll make some really interesting friends who just don't fit the usual mold of what we think our friends, you know, of our friends are going to be, because I don't think anybody ever tells anybody how to make a friend.

[04:19]

We just assume that we are able to make friends.

[04:24]

And then we were discussed. Sometimes we make the wrong friends who we meet.

[04:32]

We help people. We tend to be people who help a lot, me and myself. We find that we are nurturers in a sense, but at the same time, do our friends treat us the same? Do we get that back from people? So it's those kinds of things that are coming out for us.

[04:52]

We never did the tests I mentioned. I mentioned what I was and said they would change the mood of in what way?

[05:01]

I am sorry.

[05:06]

So say my what will change in terms of which test you're talking about and what will change the the personality won't come out as the campaign that won't be, and whether that one is depending on where you are in life, depending whether your having a social life or very solitudes life, you may change your answers because I think I've done this of test so, so few times in my life. And I think I've come out differently, depending where whether I feel more isolated or whether I feel over socialized or whether my job challenges top, I am forced to have to speak like in front of people or job challenges forces you to have it likes and dislikes.

[05:52]

So I find that because I've changed so many times in different careers, different areas, I give different answers depending how I feel or what the mood is for that period of time. My life. OK, I was thinking about I was wondering about that, actually, because I have taken it several times or at least a few times and over seven years ago, I think is the first time I took it. And I was kind of wondering if people, people's personality type change because I never did.

[06:29]

It's always been the same, even though I felt like I was different in a way than I was. I feel like there's lots of ways I'm different than seven years ago, but I still have the exact same. So I was wondering if that was similar for everybody, but obviously it's not. So you've got two different ones.

[06:45]

We usually usually it's fairly constant. Like introvert. Extrovert. Yes, pretty much a dimension is the way your brain works can be sometimes things like George, you perceive a can, can change, but generally Montebourg is usually fairly consistent.

[07:06]

OK, yeah, I've always been really consistent.

[07:10]

So what might be really interesting is if everyone if you say a networking or a social event and you were asked to by someone say, who are you? It will be interesting is if everyone can put in a chat how they would answer that. So if you want to put on the spot.

[07:30]

So if this was a networking or sort of social event and you were asked to describe yourself, how would you. How would you answer that question now? We invited in the chat, yeah. Then we can see lots of lots of reactions. But while everyone's talking, if anyone wants to say. I think I'm a complex person in some respects. I can be easy going, I can be very driven as well. Sam.

[08:24]

Very I wouldn't say it's not necessarily a career, but I'd like to learn and I enjoy lively discussions and debates and as a result of that, I don't suffer fools gladly.

[08:42]

I'm very impatient with nonsense.

[08:48]

Yeah, very, very, very short.

[08:51]

And yes, I. Put up with a lot. I can be very patient, so there is that aspect of me, I can be very patient. But at the same time, if you are really being stupid and just ridiculous, then I'm going to explode. So I have a nasty temper, too. But I am also very chilled and very funny. I'm happy I you can tell, OK, I'm gregarious, but there's a shy side to me as well.

[09:24]

So I am everything. How is that for an answer encompasses all, you're not hedging your bets there, are you?

[09:37]

No, no, I know myself. I can tell you I can be very quiet and I listen and everything, and then I can just be noisy. The whole work. Hell, I'm Jamaican, right? You know, a quiet, introverted Jamaican. That's me. But I am. And I like my own company. But I also like a good party. So there it is. OK, I get along better with men than women, the best friends I make out.

[10:18]

Do you want the honest truth? Men, women see me as competition. They don't like their husbands to talk to me in my in my youth. I was considered very pretty. Therefore, I was competition. So women just never liked me. And I decided, oh, well, to hell with it.

[10:33]

I will stick with my male friends always that it wasn't here in the UK. Now Jamaica went to but to Jamaica. And I keep friends for a very long time. Some of my best friends are people that I have known from. My oldest friend, I went to what we call in Jamaica in those days, infant school, which is which would be the equivalent of kindergarten like four or five.

[11:08]

I have one friend from that time and my best friend, I met her at university first day of going to University, age 18. And we have been best friends since and I have my closest friends otherwise were from high school before that 14, 15, 16. I keep my friends. I think I'll have them for a lifetime.

[11:36]

And, you know, like minded. No. Not the different my best friend is is totally different, she's we are, we are. There are lots of similarities, but there is enough difference to make it interesting. She does things that I won't do. Let's put it that way, and we but at the same time, we have a bond that is she's that my sister because I have no sisters. And she's the closest thing to being a sister to me.

[12:14]

OK, so what I'm what I'm looking at is really interesting is, is everybody looking at a chart, they seem like the different ways that people. Describe themselves and see themselves, but there's some people by roll by circumstance, some people by how would you like in this sense of purpose or spirituality? Now, does how you describe yourself change on the context? No. So, yes, how many people would say that they change?

[13:09]

Depending on context or how they describe themselves. And how many would stay constant wherever they are? I think so, because in a professional sense, I would give a different description of myself and the professional ways.

[13:29]

That's the core of a view that doesn't change. You know, I suppose human beings were always looking to connect with people, aren't they? So you try you try and go for some sort of shared experience with whatever group in the state you live. Obviously, there's a lot of you that makes up you. So, you know, if you're if you're sort of out there, then you can choose what you want to reveal and what not. So what gives you about the connection and the context?

[13:58]

But I think, for example, in a professional sense, there are certain attributes that come into play that meant not in terms of a general description, you think of, you know, are you a leader or a team player or do you, you know, certain characteristics such that come to the fore in a working environment, which generally you may not think of off the top of your head? That's what I'm thinking, you know, because it's more it's more defined in a narrow sense.

[14:32]

Whereas in general, you speak about all the aspects of yourself talking about yourself.

[14:40]

But can you be a leader without being a follower?

[14:46]

I don't think so. Because in order to be a leader, you have to be part of the group, and so you must have unless you set up the group, which is.

[15:01]

To some extent, you have to follow others in order to get to that position. And sometimes too often, you are leader to some, you know, in a hierarchical structure, you related to some follow to others.

[15:18]

OK, I've been really stuck with this one because the level of complexity, because normally it's fairly clear cut, it's like there's a problem and you can see where you are before, where you are after. And so. What I want to ask is, what would you like to get out today?

[15:38]

Is it about understanding yourself more so that you're more emotionally balanced and you're personally feeling better and being better version of yourself?

[15:52]

Or is it honestly who you are to express to...

In this episode we had a chance to grill Sanjay from elatedate.com to find out how dating apps really work and how to make them work for you.

Transcription

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. Sanjay is the creator of a dating app called Like If I just pass you over, Sanjay, you want to just give people a little bit of details about what what I can find out from you.

And yeah. So yeah. So I think I'm seeing some of you guys on this floor.

But yes, I'm the founder of a dating app called a late just kind of launching at the moment.

And I not traditionally from the dating world, like I actually worked in kind of marketing and business. And it's kind of different companies I go to and stuff. But we got into the dating world more recently and working with a kind of a company called Nucleated to build this app and trying to build something a little bit different. So, yeah. So it would be really interesting to hear what you guys kind of think and what your frustrations and stuff with the generally.

And then I'll try and give you a little bit of an insight on what it's like to kind of build one and what it's like to kind of try and match people in an app.

Okay. Well, thank you for being here, Sanjay. Well, while we're waiting for everyone to get on, what we'll do is we'll breakout into breakout rooms. And a topic of discussion is what what is your biggest frustration with dating apps? Hi, and I would say for me on my personal experience, like over the past, I'll say eight years, like it started off with plenty of fish and plenty of fish. And eventually, I got to say, this was like a year ago, I finally decided I just gave up without and deleted it off of delete.

It did not, like, clear my whole profile on the actual site. So I just delete the app because basically. On plenty of fish, for example. I was just never getting any messages from girls that I was interested in. I was just so basically I would always browse through girls close close to my area and I'll drop a message. I'll drop a message I try to make. I tried my best to make the message. The first message, like how you call.

Not to basic, but some to some until I start a conversation, and even now I still get I don't get a single message. I know they've seen my message. They've lots of high profile, but they don't respond back. So that's one. That's one. That's one frustration.

Okay, I'll just put you there. That's what we're going to do, is we're going to go into breakout rooms so we can discuss this in smaller groups. So if you want to discuss it there and what we're going to do is come back to Sanjay's brains of how to find a solution for you.

OK, OK, so I'm just going to send everyone in, will go for 12 minutes, so I'm going to force you should be about four minutes each. I cut you off. I don't know if you want to carry on where you were. Lost from my screen tastelessness. OK, I'll start off like I've been I've been on pretty much every social media to dating sites over the over the years, and for me, me and girls is basically just anything I do to try and like, I just try and get any girls I want.

It's just nothing seems to work for me because I never get anywhere because. Do you think I get with girls it's just endless rejections or time wasters who they're not interested, but they enjoy, like wasting my time one way or another. So I've tried many dating sites from 10 to from Playfish to tender to Cupid to him, you name it. And as I mentioned before, with with plenty of fish, I've actually had plenty of fish over a year ago because I was I wasn't getting nowhere like.

And every girl that I've met on that, no no one wanted to say basically, I just got one girl have got back to me, lots of my profile, but none of them got back to me. So I finally gave up without Amontillado are still on Tinder, but I just barely use it nowadays because. I already get a match, and if I get a match and I'll try to get conversation out of them, just enough conversation so I can get so we can like Gulfton, they'd like see like taxand what's up?

And they don't even even talk back or they'll just say a few messages and then you never hear from them again. OK. Yeah, okay, so that's quite a general thing about dating sites in general is not particularly about the app. It's about like online dating.

Yeah, yeah. OK, so so that's going to be about I don't know if you want to jump in, Sanjay, but I'm just going to say, if I was looking at that, that would be about who you were targeting. The profile that you've got. Something is is evah, not the right matches or that. But I but I think the focus we're going to talk about mostly here is how you can make the algorithms work for you, how what kind of profile.

Whereas I think this is more of a dating question than a dating app. Does that make sense, this is what you think, Sanjay? Yeah, so much on that, and I think it comes down not just to say hello.

Yeah, I can hear you. Can you can you hear, Sanjay this? Yes, well, I think one of the things that I was thinking about this is, you know, it's definitely a frustration that you will experience on one day. There's a couple of things that are fundamentally a problem with the industry that mean it's more like happen. The first one is the massive skew towards male users compared to female users.

So this stat is 60 40 in terms of the 60 percent men vs. 40 percent women. But that's like a general kind of industry wide thing. But it's on some it's far, far worse. So, like the likes of plenty of fish tend. I mean, there's been some there's some statistics that say that Tinder's like nine guys for every one woman, even on Bumble, which are apps that are designed for women or marketed to women, are it's it's way, kind of way more this way more men than there are women.

So that's the first problem. That is just something that unfortunately you just kind of have to deal with. The second thing is in terms of you talking about time wasters and and just kind of not getting anywhere. Another thing to consider is that not all dating apps like that, what you're trying to get from the app in terms of what you're looking for in terms of relationship makes a big difference to the type of that you should use. So I would say never use something like plenty of fish if you're looking for a relationship.

Never use something like Tinder just because the way that the apps are designed aren't made to optimize to a relationship. So Tinder is primarily superficial, even though if you try really hard because it has the most amount of users, you could probably find a relationship on that. My ex I've met on Tinder a few years ago, but ultimately it's a it's a much harder slog because it's a lot harder to find out who is there for what. And then and the other thing to think about is, is the barrier to entry in terms of how easy it is to set up an account.

The easier it is to set up an account, the more time which is you're going to have basically because there's no qualifying of the person who's coming onto the app. If you're going on Tinder, you can do it with a couple of pictures and not say a single thing. And so there's no guarantee that they're actually going to be worthwhile talking to. And a lot of people and there's a lot of stats and data that shows that actually there's a good proportion of people who you go on dating apps like Tinder simply for, you know, to to to kind of pass the time as a game.

I mean, if built like games for a reason, because it keeps people in the. Mm hmm. And another thing like like because if our belly still use and send up a hell of a lot less, because with the experience which I've mentioned before and I've been watching different many YouTube videos, like, I know different Maysam, go out and meet girls outside of the online world as well as. And that unlocks a different day in culture and political parties where they say like, oh oh to do like to go out and meet girls, oh, you must say they saw you must do this or do they do that and go out, go out in the open public knowing in the streets like.

So if we can pull out in a sense and I see girls walking about and just go out and start approaching them all, like our approach goes in on the nightlife life, like she's been looking at looking outside the box, like not limiting myself to just only looking at dating apps.

But guys, I'm going to stop you there because I want to talk about for everyone is so that we can get the most used dating apps. So we're going to do is we're going to talk about dating apps for now, problems with dating apps. And then at the end, when we going through that, we can discuss your particular situation and the questions you ask more of a generic dating rather than what I want to do in our time here is get my most out of dating apps and use them in the most effective way.

So if you have to answer that question, we'll get back to that later. So if anyone else wants to talk, but before they do, if everyone could put some something in the chat, in the chat box about what your biggest frustrations are with dating apps and online dating.

There are some technical things, yes, that can companies do some tricks and they absolutely have some sort of shut out like automatic generated message to people to keep Zino on. And it's not real people. They're some sort of officier algorithm somewhere on their abs or. Yeah.

I mean, can they have fake profiles and can I make it look easy? You mean like they had can I have fake profiles and some scam people.

Sort of, yeah. Or maybe just to keep people on in their tracks. So when sometimes you log into some dating apps and you just immediately started chatting with someone and all you do is ask questions, but you don't really learn anything and you keep answering and you don't get what you ask, which is you don't get a reply at all these sort of things. So this is something made by a company or it is some kind or. Like, what we're doing is we're going to collect the list of problems and in a sense it's going to take us through exactly what the problems are, why and how you can overcome them.

So so, yes, that's basically. Later, about it's about fake profiles or about fake profiles, keep making it look easy. It is. And people engaging people kind of leading them to it.

So this is two ways of looking at it. So one, which is the actual app itself, which is easy because I wouldn't say that the apps themselves are the companies themselves. If we're talking about the likes of 10 to 20 flash all of these big companies, I wouldn't say that they're doing it. Maybe some of the smaller ones, there's what they call them, the affiliate apps. These are basically rescanned versions of of apps. And the whole purpose of these businesses is literally just to get get users in cheaply, make them pay some money, and then they don't care if they lose them because they're not actually trying to get them to match with anyone.

They're just trying to get some money from them. And these companies just constantly spending money on time performance out of paid advertising to bring you in. So that's certainly the type of company that potentially has those sorts of kind of tactics because they're not likely to retain users very well and they're just going to want to try and get you in their place of money. And then if they lose you, they don't take the money, actually. The problem with the bigger apps and things like Tinder that is that there are it's literally big business in in terms of there are entire companies that are in Eastern Europe where they create profiles and they they literally just trying to they're just a bunch of fraudsters.

And they they go to these industry events even though, like, it's well known within the industry that they're kind of creating it. So. It's a problem I wouldn't necessarily say it's always the company itself that's doing it in some instances, it's like so there are certainly some companies that will be creating profiles to make it seem like there's more people on there if they're just trying to get you to kind of pay for a subscription or something. But then on the flipside, there's also a lot of companies.

It goes again back to us. And the the how hard it is to create a profile, the easier it is for them to kind of the fraudsters and the kind of people who are just trying to, you know, to to create the profiles. I you see in Central Park, you can. AK. Unless there's anyone else who's got something to say. And. Yes, sure. Are then, John? Yeah, I just find people that tend to be addicted to using the dating app to talk to people even when they are dating or when they move to a relationship.

Like, when you feel bored, you want to find someone to talk, not seriously. All right. I don't like it. Especially I. I met my. Plus the X from our front door, and we were in a relationship for two years, but he was using Tinder is doing when we are worrying relationship. It's not just happened to me.

It's also happened to so many of my friends around me who, you know, feel bored and switch left and right, just just talk to people and not seriously enough or even when they're in a relationship. Some of them might flirt with other guys or girls. I just started because I find this happens. I think when you feel what you want to use social media getting attention. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I think we'll talk about that when we get into more and more depth and. But I do think that is is one of the things I think Sanjay will be able to talk about that later John.

Yeah, I've had mixed experience with. Various dating apps, largely Tinder and Bumble, over the years, I had a two year relationship, it was really good with, um, a Dutch academic and that was great, I must say. Um. I. Feel inhibited by the fact that on a stroke survivor. I made the very good strike survivor, you know, that's what I do as my job, but I'm a barista. I'm representing. Disabled people in claims on the equality rights and.

Think there's a lot to say about it and passionate about it, but I sometimes wonder whether. There's two things which. Conclude the algorithms really working for me. Firstly. It's such a small. Narrow band of people who are disabled and are coming on to website dating websites and to. Maybe if your. Kee. Material concern is how much money to people spend. You have to get them excited by your website and you want loads of people and loads of things that the small groups like, for example, disabled people.

You're never going to get a bomb because what's the point, because they're disabled and they you know, you have versity pretty poor and university university, you know. Frankly, who cares? I mean, that's a maybe a cynical view, but I'd be interested in what Sanchez? And so just to recap, so kind of concern is that the disabled community is definitely under represented and underserved, basically kind of the summary of what you're saying. Yeah, yeah.

I think I think you're right. I don't know of any specific service. I'm sure there probably is. But I'd have to look into it whether there's a specific service for kind of people who are differently abled. And but, yeah, the problem with certainly the bigger ones is that they are designed to be as broad as possible. And so and to kind of put as much as much focus on the users doing the self selection as opposed to then kind of catering to each each different type of segment, I think.

And then on the flip side, there are countless kind of niche dating sites and in fact the majority of new dating sites and dating apps that come about on these apps because it's easier to try and build something that is the same as all the others. But after a specific target market, as opposed to trying to create something genuinely different in terms of the app itself. And so I guess the hope is that that you could be served in that way, because then it's kind of literally capturing those people and and providing that.

But then on the flip side, you the I think the better longer term solution is to just have the major sites and major apps kind of serve them better. So unfortunately, there's not really much I can say in terms of like how we get to that point. But it's a definitely a really good. Thing to raise and hopefully we can kind of move to something. It's certainly something I be thinking about. So this is quite a few I'm going through and trying to make sure everything from the chat, but what I thought would be interesting was if we were to break out into breakout groups and consider.

So still a lot of these. Of these problems, from my view, originate from this, there's a conflict of interest where if you're a user on an app, you want to use the app without buying and you want to get the best match. And whereas the app has to make some money. And so there's always going to be that pressure to push people towards towards paying. So. One way of understanding the problems is if we were to think of what would be the perfect map, what would be the perfect that you would like to use, one that's also going to be sustainable for the company to continue making it.

And so what would be the things that you'd be willing to pay for? What would be the features that you'd want to eliminate? So the discussion is to create a wish list of the perfect app. Yes, everyone, everyone, I just wanted to raise some points, I think, with what you said is definitely regarding paying for the jobs.

For example, I wouldn't mind paying, but I would want some sort of support or guarantee that this app would be able to match me to someone. So I think what that offends me from buying many times is that I feel that maybe it's not worth it or it is not going to work, you know. So also, if the apps or the websites have some sort of how can I say like reliability or some sort of can can give some guarantee that, OK, we are doing this and the potential to work is quite high, then I think paying will not be that bad.

But then again, I've never paid for my website or for an app, so I don't really know.

Yeah. I mean, I would say I'm glad you spoke up because I was looking at not matching to some clarity, but I think I get that in a sense of that you would have pay and then you have met anyone.

Yes. I mean, I think it's one interesting point is what Sanjay said as well about we need to be able to realize what we what we are looking for. So, for example, obviously on Tinder, we will probably not be able to find the citizen relationship. I think this is a problem that I have. Maybe I'm not looking at the right websites and apps, but I think, again, because because as I mentioned as well, there are some websites that they just I think was Sanjay or you.

I forgot that. Just want to make some money then, you know, it keeps people a little bit like, should I, should I pay, should I not? So maybe a website that can give some sort of not a guarantee because nothing is guaranteed. Right. That some sort of like

In this episode we talked about breakups and our experiences in getting over them.

We talked about the the grief process to getting past the pain.

We discussed the three stories that are key in processing the emotions and learnings we can take as we move forwards.