Never thought you would have an abortion? That's exactly what Wisconsin mom and maternal health advocate Megan Kling believed until she became pregnant with her third much wanted and planned child.

Megan courageously shares her deeply personal story of terminating two pregnancies for medical reasons. She discusses the profound impact of abortion restrictions, the challenges of navigating medical insurance, and the importance of advocating for safer maternal healthcare. Megan's story highlights the complexities behind abortion legislation, its real-life effects on everyday moms, the inadequacy of exceptions for the life of the mother, and how, if you can become pregnant, abortion laws impact you. She also addresses the concept of "babies born alive from botched abortions," how she coped with losing two much wanted children, and why she had to leave her state to access evidence based health care. Along the way, she shares how she traveled to a larger hospital to VBAC her second child with unsupportive providers as well as her subsequent plans to VBAC a second time at her local rural, community hospital, and how the June 2024 presidential debate propelled her participation in a political ad. Tune in to hear her powerful narrative that sheds light on why empathetic and evidence-based healthcare is crucial for all women.

00:00 Welcome to Episode 18!

03:29 Seeking Guests: Level 1 Hospitals That Offer VBAC

04:21 Meet Megan!

05:44 Why Share Her Story

07:07 If You Can Become Pregnant, Abortion Restrictions Can Impact You

11:18 First Pregnancy and Cesarean

13:14 No Mention of VBAC or Increased Risks After Cesarean

14:11 Pregnant Again, But Rural Hospital Says, "No VBACs"

17:32 VBAC Calculator Says 38%

18:54 Free VBAC Resources

19:48 "...I Guess We'll Let You Labor Anyway"

23:00 Third Pregnancy, Returns to Rural Hospital for Second VBAC

23:41 What Happens If I Decline a Cesarean?

25:47 Patients Are Not Obligated To Follow Hospital Policy

26:43 There Is Something Very Wrong

29:35 The Diagnosis

31:59 What Are The Abortion Laws In Wisconsin?

35:39 "Born Alive From Botched Abortions"

37:11 Pregnancy Is Too Complex To Legislate

38:02 How She Coped With Her Son's Passing

39:06 Ready To Try Again

40:04 Pregnant With Plans to VBAC at Community Hospital

43:06 And It Happens Again

44:09 Can't Access The Medications She Needs Due to Fear Surrounding Abortion Laws

47:09 "If I Had Not Experienced This, I Would've Never Known To Ask This Question"

48:14 Her Fourth Child's Birth

48:58 Umbilical Cord Abnormality

51:30 Why Did She Need To Leave The State?

52:32 How Abortion Bans Impact Health Care For All

55:33 Want to Learn More About VBAC?

56:53 Insurance May Not Cover Abortion Care (Even When Medically Indicated)

59:54 The Healthcare Gap Planned Parenthood Fills

01:01:29 Can You Get Pregnant? Abortion Laws Can Impact You.

01:03:09 What Has All This Media Exposure Been Like?

01:04:43 Agreeing To Be In A Political Ad

01:06:15 Speaking Even When Your Voice Shakes

01:09:15 Listen To The Voice Screaming Inside You

01:12:37 How She Has Grown

01:14:25 Advice For Women Pregnant With A Non-Viable Pregnancy

01:15:18 What She Wishes She Knew At The Beginning

01:16:45 The Ripple Effect Of Her Pregnancies

01:17:50 How She Engages With Healthcare Now

01:18:44 Jen's Experience With Misinformation & Pelvic Prolapse

01:20:40 Abortion Bans Do Not Care About The Life Of The Mother

01:23:32 Unintended Consequences & Abortion Bans

01:24:33 Make Your Voice Heard

01:25:12 Women's Health Is Inherently Political

01:26:31 Our Summer Hiatus, See You In The Fall

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

• Bioethicist Fr. Ryan McCarthy discusses brain death, abortion, and the Adriana Smith Case on All Things Women's Health - Apple Podcasts
• Pelvic floor physiotherapist Dr. Sinéad Dufour
• The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker (click this link to purchase from a Black owned bookstore)
• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• E6: Decoding the VBAC Calculator: Science, Bias, and Decision Making │ The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• Study finds that VBAC calculators underpredict VBAC odds. They are also racially biased. | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education
• 3 Surprising Things National Guidelines Say About VBAC - VBAC Facts® Downloadable Handout

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

Confusion and fear over lawsuits drives health care in the US and even more so within obstetrics and midwifery. In the midst of defensive medicine as default, many clinicians miss the one decision that provides ultimate litigation protection.

Hermine Hayes-Klein is single handedly changing the landscape relative to litigation within maternal health care. An informed consent expert and international civil and human rights attorney, she specializes in the abuse of women and birthing people by the maternal health system.

We will discuss:

• the cognitive disconnect among healthcare providers regarding informed consent during pregnancy and childbirth
• legal cases that illustrate widespread rights violations
• her recent $1.73 million jury verdict
• the legal and ethical mandates that protect pregnant women's rights
• the role of lawyers in enforcing these rights
• conventional wisdom like "you'll never be sued for a cesarean" and "liability concerns makes us do it"
• how doctors will be held accountable for not respecting patient rights
• why "birth can't be planned" is insulting
• how juries recognize trauma as an injury that matters
• why clinicians should support women's choices even if it scares them

Additionally, Jen talks about her upcoming VBAC training for the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health and answers a reader's question about prior uterine dehiscence and future uterine rupture risk.

00:00 Welcome To Episode 17!

02:07 Next VBAC Facts® Training

03:58 Reader Question: Prior Uterine Dehiscence

11:23 Telemedicine VBAC Consults

12:44 Introducing Hermine Hayes-Klein

14:06 The Violation of Informed Consent

17:34 "You'll Never Be Sued For Doing a Cesarean" And Other Myths

18:57 Perverse Liability Incentives

20:12 VBAC Resources

21:06 Doctors Will Be Held Accountable For Not Respecting Client's Rights

21:42 Rinat Dray's Forced Cesarean

25:33 $1.73 Million Dollar Judgement

26:39 Cognitive Disconnect in Maternity Care

31:18 "Birth Can't Be Planned" Is Insulting

32:11 Sample Birth Plan Language

32:31 Hooked Up & Induced, No Medical Reason

33:15 Running, Sobbing, Sleepwalking

33:44 Diagnosed with "Adjustment Disorder" Instead of PTSD

34:07 "The Kind of Abuse That Happens To Women Every Day"

35:00 "The Baby's Healthy, Why Are We Even Here?"

35:49 Babies Need Their Mothers To Be Healthy

36:11 Juries Recognize Trauma As An Injury That Matters

36:50 Hold Doctors Accountable For Doing What The Law Requires

36:59 Next Case Challenges, "You Are Not Allowed"

39:12 "The Very Real Risks of Cesarean Are Dumped Onto The Birthing Patient"

39:46 Birth Trauma Not About Mode of Delivery

40:22 Who is Liable for Complications?

41:17 "Liability Makes Us Do It" Is A Lie

41:42 VBAC Facts Courses

45:06 Should We "Go Slow?" Are We "There Yet?"

46:26 The Law of Informed Consent Means...

46:56 "Keep Telling Them That They Have To Strap Down For The Belt"

48:26 What Violating Informed Consent Looks Like

49:46 Bodily Autonomy "Goes Both Ways?"

51:15 Let's Be Clear About Maternal Death

52:33 News Articles When Women Die During Childbirth, Often, It's Cesarean

53:30 We Are Pro Evidence Based Care and Informed Consent

55:21 OBGYNs Should Support Patient Decisions, Even If It Scares Them

57:01 When An OB Realized Her Informed Consent Process Was Coercive

58:24 OB's Testimony Regarding Informed Consent

01:00:32 Women and Birthing People Are The Captain Of The Ship

01:01:13 Rights Exist Even In Rural Hospitals

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

• How to Navigate Forced Cesarean Threats with L&D RN Lexi Abeln, Birth Monopoly Founder Cristen Pascucci, and Hermine Hayes-Klein │ VBAC Facts® Professional Membership
• An Attorney's Guide to Navigating Informed Consent and Refusal with Hermine Hayes Klein │ VBAC Facts® Professional Membership
• Nina Simone: Mississippi Goddam │ YouTube
• The story behind Nina Simone's protest song, "Mississippi Goddam" | American Masters | PBS
• “Midwife Delivery Death Trial" judge comments: Home birth is a constitutional right | VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• E5: Autonomy, Authority, Coercion & Consent: Who Decides in Maternity Care? │ The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education
• 3 Surprising Things National Guidelines Say About VBAC - VBAC Facts® Downloadable Handout

Want to change hospital policy, VBAC ban, placenta policy, or otherwise? Barbara Stratton is your gal.

In this interview, Barbara reflects back on over 20 years of activism and shares her biggest tips to changing hospital policy as well as what first time parents wish they knew.

She shares insights on speaking to the media, planning a rally, searching for the perfect VBAC plaintiff as well as the secret to activism.

The discussion also includes:

• how Medicare/Medicaid said hospitals cannot enforce VBAC bans,
• caution for hospital based childbirth classes
• as well as birth centers inside hospitals, and
• why she created her Birth Words Poetry Magnet Set!

Plus Jen shares:

• her upcoming speaking engagement with the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health,
• reader Katelyn's experience with the VBAC calculator, and
• observations from VBAC Facts'® first month on TikTok including
• why mothers shouldn't always "listen to your doctor" and
• the privilege embedded in the statement "find another provider/hospital who is supportive of VBAC."

All this and more in episode 16 of The VBAC Facts® Podcast!

01:55 Upcoming Events & News

03:53 Reader Katelyn's Experience with the VBAC Calculator

07:16 TikTok: "Listen to Your Doctor!"

16:01 Anonymous, Disrespectful, and Full of Disdain

18:21 Showing Up on Social Media

19:47 Concerns About Litigation

27:21 The Bait & Switch

31:31 Why "Find Another Hospital" Is So Hard

34:39 Meet Barbara Stratton

35:20 Birth Words Poetry Magnet Set

37:04 Her Cesarean Poem

40:24 Her Journey to Birth Activism

45:33 Finding Post-Cesarean Support

46:57 Learns About VBAC Bans

48:02 Planning Her First VBAC Ban Rally

55:07 Fighting the VBAC Ban

55:58 First VBAC Ban Reversed!

56:20 Woman Wants VBA2C, Declines Third Cesarean

57:52 Maryland Attorney General: "Generally it is not legal to section a woman against her consent"

59:34 Resources for Fighting VBAC Bans

01:00:43 Goal: To Reverse All VBAC Bans

01:04:17 Hospitals Cannot Enforce VBAC Bans

01:09:28 The Secret to Activism

01:15:50 Work with Barbara 1:1

01:16:49 Speaking Even When Your Voice Shakes at the NIH VBAC Conference

01:19:02 Changing Hospital Placenta Policy

01:21:16 Examples of In-Hospital Advocacy

01:22:44 Biggest Issue in Birth Activism: The Elusive First Time Mother

01:24:58 Mothers: "I Wish I Had Known..."

01:32:28 Most Successful VBAC Ban Reversal Strategies

01:35:00 A Forced Cesarean

01:44:47 The Idea of Fault

01:47:21 VBAC Planning Tips

01:52:00 Hospital Based Childbirth Classes

01:55:14 Searching for the Perfect VBAC Plaintiff

01:56:11 Denied VBAC a Week Before She Was Due

01:56:44 Physician Preference Drives VBAC Ban Reversal

02:00:31 Advice for Birth Professionals

02:04:39 Key Differences in Birth Centers

02:07:19 Advice for Parents

02:09:14 Mutual Appreciation ❤️

02:12:29 VBAC Bait & Switch

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• Schedule a consulting call with Barbara Stratton
• Only two hospitals in state ban VBAC, Nov 27, 2005 | Archives | fredericknewspost.com
• Hails reconsideration of FMH VBAC policy, Jul 25, 2006 | Archives | fredericknewspost.com
• FMH rethinks ban on VBACs, Jul 7, 2006 | Archives | fredericknewspost.com
• E13: Why This OB/GYN Passionately Supports VBAC Access (And You Should Too) with Dr. Chris Stroud │ The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• E6: Decoding the VBAC Calculator: Science, Bias, and Decision Making │ The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• E5: Autonomy, Authority, Coercion & Consent: Who Decides in Maternity Care? │ The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• E14: An OB Scientist's Caution on the VBAC Calculator and Informed Consent with Dr. Nicholas Rubashkin MD PhD │ The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• California Abundant Birth Project - Los Angeles County Department of Public Health
• Birth Words - poetry magnet set with free shipping │ Etsy
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Top Three VBAC Myths! | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education

Tools Jen loves (affiliate links)

• Made with Descript!: https://get.descript.com/h450nx6hehq4
• Host your podcast with Captivate: https://www.captivate.fm/signup?ref=ytczmzd
• Use Kit for your email marketing: https://convertkit.com?lmref=Q3Cbxw

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

What do you do when you are pregnant after a cesarean and the only hospital in your community has a VBAC ban? Come hear the story of Dr. Denise Jaimes-Villanueva PsyD of Santa Barbara, California as she shares everything she endured to avoid compulsory surgery.

From the challenges around finding a provider in a community where the influence of the hostile VBAC climate permeated to the financial and emotional factors that influenced her decisions, she discusses the journey of processing the grief of her births, what she would do differently, and the lessons she learned along the way.

Her story illustrates why the refrain, "just find a supportive provider or hospital" is often trite and why every hospital with a L&D unit in the US should support and offer VBAC, as the American College of OB/GYNs has explicitly stated since 2017.

• 00:42 Welcome Denise!
• 02:03 Her First Birth
• 14:21 Navigating VBAC Bans
• 24:12 Hiring Midwives to Labor at Home
• 34:58 The Toll of Hostile Climate VBAC Planning
• 36:46 Lessons She Learned
• 50:18 Processing the Impact of Those Births
• 54:40 Trusting Providers is Still Hard
• 57:45 Her Message for Parents
• 59:54 Her Message to Clinicians
• 01:01:28 Her Message to Policymakers

If you have a question about a prior episode, a topic you'd like me to feature, a guest you'd like me to interview (including yourself!), or a "VBAC win" (birth stories, policy changes, advocacy/legal victories) you'd like to share, go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast.

• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• E3: "The Rules About VBAC" Part 1: A Deep Dive into US VBAC Guidelines with Jen Kamel - The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• E5: Autonomy, Authority, Coercion & Consent: Who Decides in Maternity Care? - The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• E4: “The Rules About VBAC” Part 2: A Deep Dive into US VBAC Guidelines with Jen Kamel - The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• "No one can force you to have a cesarean" is false | VBAC Facts®
• Calling women who plan home VBACs "stupid" misses the point | VBAC Facts®
• How to File a Complaint for Obstetric Violence or Mistreatment in Birth - Birth Monopoly
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Top Three VBAC Myths! | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education
• Too Bad We Can't Just "Ban" Accreta-The Downstream Consequences of VBAC Bans - VBAC Facts® Article
• "Hospitals offering VBAC are required to have 24/7 anesthesia" is false - VBAC Facts® Article

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

Ever use the VBAC calculator? Then you will want to listen to physician scientist and VBAC calculator researcher Dr. Nicholas Rubashkin, MD, PhD, an Associate Professor at UC San Francisco, as he reviews the historical and cultural implications of the VBAC calculator, a tool used to predict vaginal birth after cesarean (VBAC) odds.

The conversation uncovers how the calculator has propagated racist assumptions that Black and Hispanic bodies are less capable of vaginal birth, the consequences of those assumptions on maternal care, and the problematic "60% threshold."

They explore how to shift the conversation from risk-based to goal-oriented, how problems remain even after race and ethnicity were removed from the tool, recent research out of Sweden, and the fundamental ethical issues at the root of the calculator.

The episode also addresses the concept of "controlling risk in advance," ethical implications of using surgery as a default solution, why some midwives don't use the calculator, and provides insights into future research and practices aimed at increasing equitable access to VBAC.

02:11 His Training and Background

09:25 How He Decided to Study the VBAC Calculator

11:25 Is VBAC a Political Issue?

13:38 New Limitations on Research Grants

16:48 The Many VBAC Calculators

20:37 How to Define Uterine Rupture

21:45 Race as a Risk Factor

23:28 The Power of Lived Experience in Research

25:55 It's Not Race, It's Racism

27:56 How Race & Racism Were Built Into the Calculator

29:28 Race & Ethnicity Removed from the VBAC Calculator

32:13 A New Form of Scientific Racism

33:03 Removing Race, Problems Remain

35:34 Response to VBAC Calculator Critique

38:34 Reader Q: Validate Prior FTP Cesarean

42:27 Swedish Study: 10cm FTP Diagnosis & Future VBAC Odds

43:36 Script for Using the Calculator

44:44 Reader Q: Psychosocial Elements of FTP

47:07 Science Beyond VBAC Calculator Comes From Oncology!

47:59 Calculator Contributes to Informed Consent?

51:04 Where to Start: VBAC Calculator & Informed Consent

54:01 Controlling Risk in Advance

01:01:02 The Fundamental Ethical Issue

01:03:16 The 60% Threshold

01:08:02 The "Necessity" of The 40/41-Week Scheduled Cesarean

01:10:28 Goal Oriented Conversations

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

• Contribute to the VBAC Facts® BIPOC Scholarship Fund | VBAC Facts®
• Vaginal Birth After Cesarean Calculator (MFMU)
• Episode 6 Decoding the VBAC Calculator: Science, Bias, and Decision Making | The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• Study finds that VBAC calculators underpredict VBAC odds. They are also racially biased. | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Top Three VBAC Myths! | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About Vaginal Birth After Cesarean™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Educational Course for Parents
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

Heard no one supports VBAC? Simply not true. Join Dr. Chris Stroud OB/GYN of Fort Wayne, Indiana has he considers his 30 year career and shares why offering VBAC is so important to him, including his reasoning for supporting community midwives who attend home and birth center VBAC.

We discuss the concept of "acceptable complications," which may provide some insight as to why many OBs in the United States recommend repeat cesareans for everyone regardless of their medical history, their current clinical scenario, or VBAC candidacy.

He also shares his vulnerable and authentic reflections on being sued after a uterine rupture related fetal demise and why he continues to attend VBACs. Key topics covered include his practice's secret sauce, how working with community midwives has made him a better obstetrician, what he calls the four pillars of VBAC success, and a special message for physicians who don't attend VBAC and hospital administrators who maintain VBAC bans.

00:00 Upcoming VBAC Facts® Events

01:35 Join Our Email List to Learn More About VBAC

02:16 How To Book Jen to Speak at Your Next Event

03:01 What We Will Talk About Today

08:24 When VBACs Were Required

13:21 His VBAC Philosophy

14:39 Why His Believes Offering VBAC is Important

16:28 How He Counsels Patients on VBAC vs Repeat Cesarean

19:19 The Concept of "Acceptable Complications"

24:06 Avoiding VBAC Bait & Switch

26:46 Does He Worry About VBAC Safety?

28:27 When He Induces Planned VBACs

30:06 What "Immediately Available" Means to Him

31:16 Why Aren't All Hospitals Attending VBAC?

33:53 On Not Giving Up

35:48 Voting with Your Feet

36:55 Administrative, Hospital, & Legal Challenges

40:23 Don't Leave Those with Primary Cesareans in the Dust

42:32 Questions for Non-VBAC Providers

45:42 It's the Lawsuit

47:37 His Practice's Secret Sauce

50:47 On Collaborating with Community Midwives

52:54 What He Has Learned From Community Midwives

56:00 Longest Second Stage

57:34 On Being Sued After a Uterine Rupture

59:50 Processing Trauma After a Uterine Rupture & Fetal Demise

01:03:43 On Advocating for His Patients

01:05:47 Advice: Reversing VBAC Bans

01:07:26 Four Pillars of VBAC Success

01:10:16 Parents: Most Important Thing for Them to Consider

01:11:11 A Message for Physicians Who Don't Attend VBAC

01:12:26 Message to Hospital Administrators with VBAC Bans

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

Email Dr. Chris Stroud: [email protected]

• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• Home - International Cesarean Awareness Network - Learn more about ICAN's April 21, 2025 Q&A with Jen Kamel
• WARM | Washington Alliance for Responsible Midwifery | Birth is the most fundamental human rights issue. Safe and successful childbirth options are the strong foundation upon which every healthy society grows. - Register for the April 24 - 26, 2025 WARM Conference in Wenatchee, Washington and attend Jen's 3 hour training, "The VBAC Imperative: How to Improve VBAC Access and Outcomes While Decreasing Litigation Risk"
• Learn more about VBAC telemedicine with Dr Chris Stroud: Fertility & Midwifery Care Center - Fertility & Midwifery Birth Center
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Top Three VBAC Myths! | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education

Why does VBAC access matter and how does the concept of "acceptable risk" influence how some physicians view cesarean versus VBAC complications?

Learn that and more when VBAC Facts® Founder Jen Kamel is interviewed on "All Things Women's Health" with Dr. Chris Stroud.

She will share the impact of her births on her life, what it was like to experience a contraction for the first time, why it is so important for people to have access to VBAC after one cesarean, and her favorite VBAC myth.

They also discuss recovery from a cesarean versus a vaginal birth, how shifts in physician employment can impact VBAC access, as well as what makes a cesarean hysterectomy different than a hysterectomy in the absence of pregnancy.

Plus, Jen responds to some reader comments on episode 11 where we discussed a community's 10 year fight against a VBAC ban. This episode provides valuable insights for parents, healthcare professionals, and anyone interested in women's health and birthing options.

• 01:26 Reader Comments: Episode 11
• 11:07 Dr. Chris Stroud introduces Jen
• 13:38 Jen's Story
• 17:17 Baby is Transverse, What Now?
• 24:12 The Time Before Social Media
• 25:15 VBAC vs. Cesarean Postpartum
• 26:50 Abdominal Hysterectomy vs. C-Section
• 28:37 Why Jen Founded VBAC Facts®
• 31:40 "Acceptable Risk"
• 36:56 Getting into Medical Research
• 43:43 Misquoting Research
• 47:03 One Prior Cesarean is Not High Risk
• 47:46 Why Does Birth Experience Matter?
• 53:08 Transformation Through Birth
• 54:36 Where is VBAC Headed?
• 56:40 Shift of Physician Employment
• 01:02:48 What is a C-Section Hysterectomy?
• 01:05:34 Pregnant After One Cesarean? This is Your Best Shot
• 01:10:16 Favorite VBAC Myth
• 01:12:22 Advice for Parents, Nurses, and Providers

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

• E7 40+ VBAC Myths Busted! Plus Hospital VBA2C After Uterine Defect - The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• "Three times the risk?:" What the large Canadian VBAC study really says | VBAC Facts®
• 13 persistent myths about vaginal birth after cesarean | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• International Cesarean Awareness Network
• Sign up for your copy of the Top Three VBAC Myths! | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About Vaginal Birth After Cesarean™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Educational Course for Parents
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education
• Vaginal birth after two cesareans (VBA2C): An overview of the evidence - VBAC Facts® Article
• Vaginal birth after three or more cesareans (VBA3C/VBAMC): An overview of the evidence - VBAC Facts® Article

What do you do when your local hospital bans vaginal birth after cesarean (VBAC) and leads people to believe that their only option there is a repeat cesarean? What about when they start to withhold pain relief to anyone who "insists" on laboring after a cesarean? When this happened in Santa Barbara, California, local activists and mothers took action. Come learn what is possible when you know the facts, know your rights, don't comply and be persistent. It's a lesson from a small beachy town that can be applied to so many other social issues. Sit down with VBAC Facts® Founder Jen Kamel and birth activist Anastasia Stone as Anastasia shares her community's 10 year journey to reverse a VBAC ban and ensure everyone had access to respectful, evidence based care. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

• 01:56 How She Got Involved with Birth Work
• 02:50 Creating Relationships, Building Bridges
• 06:56 "Everyone Gets an Epidural." Why?
• 11:03 The Hospital Banned VBAC Because...
• 11:58 Educate the Community
• 18:02 Refusing a Cesarean at a VBAC Ban Hospital
• 19:31 Pushback: Denying People Epidurals
• 27:30 Most Effective Strategies
• 31:53 Free Resources
• 32:47 Biggest Challenges
• 36:35 When the VBAC Ban was Reversed
• 38:25 What Every Provider Should Do
• 40:33 The Worst Place to Labor
• 41:23 "Just Find Another Provider?"
• 43:28 Research on Provider Preference
• 45:25 "But My Doctor Won't Let Me"
• 47:50 "Wow, Something's Got to Change"
• 50:49 What She Wishes She Knew at the Beginning
• 52:16 Our Kids Are Watching Us
• 53:53 Know Your Sphere of Influence
• 56:17 Advice for Reversing VBAC Bans
• 57:58 What Birth Professionals Should Know About Reversing VBAC Bans

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Metz (2013). How do good candidates for trial of labor after cesarean (TOLAC) who undergo elective repeat cesarean differ from those who choose TOLAC? American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology - PubMed
• Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital Reverses Stance on VBACs, July 14, 2022 - The Santa Barbara Independent
• Protest Over Cottage Hospital's VBAC Ban, March 19, 2017 - The Santa Barbara Independent
• International Cesarean Awareness Network
• Sign up for your copy of the Top Three VBAC Myths! | VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education

Less than 3% of people labor after two cesareans in the US. Laura Stimson was one of those people. After having her first cesarean for twins and an elective repeat cesarean during COVID, she really wanted to experience a vaginal birth after two cesareans (VBA2C). A chance conversation with a midwife at a dinner party opened her eyes to what was possible. She learned that hospital midwives in her area of Downriver Detroit, Michigan attended VBA2C and made her plan. Laura shares with us what she learned along the way as she navigated gestational diabetes and a suspected big baby including her top tips for parents, what she wishes she knew, and how her births transformed not only how she viewed herself and her body, but how she engages with healthcare. She says, "After 2 caesareans (which I never wanted) I was finally able to have a successful VBA2C! I would love to share my journey, ups and downs, and how I finally was listened too!" There is power in sharing our birth stories. Join us for Laura's.

Want to suggest a guest we should interview, topic we should discuss, or share your birth story? You can at https://vbacfacts.com/podcast!

Source for 3% statistic: Dombrowski, M., Illuzzi, J. L., Reddy, U. M., et al. (2020). Trial of labor after two prior cesarean deliveries: patient and hospital characteristics and birth outcomes. Obstetrics & Gynecology, 136(1), pp.109-117.

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• What is the Evidence for Induction or C-section for a Big Baby? | Evidence Based Birth®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education
• Dombrowski, M., Illuzzi, J. L., Reddy, U. M., et al. (2020). Trial of labor after two prior cesarean deliveries: patient and hospital characteristics and birth outcomes. Obstetrics & Gynecology, 136(1), pp.109-117.
• Vaginal birth after two cesareans (VBA2C): An overview of the evidence - VBAC Facts® Article
• The Truth About VBA2C: Risk, Rates, & Outcomes - VBAC Facts® Continuing Education Training

What causes someone to distrust the medical system? What impact does that have on public health? Join Dr. Amber Vayo PhD, a maternal health and politics researcher, as she answers those questions and so much more. Dr. Vayo shares insights on the role of trust, the impact of institutional betrayal, and the significance of listening to women's experiences. The discussion highlights various facets of medical mistrust, the importance of soft skills for clinicians, and how the healthcare system can improve by better addressing grievances. Plus Jen shares a victorious hospital VBA2C story after CPD from Emilie in Alberta, Canada.

Watch for Dr. Vayo's upcoming book "Birthzillas and Madwives: The Politics of Childbirth" at a store near you and listen to her podcast, Birthzillas: The Podcast.

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

Resources Mentioned

• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About Vaginal Birth After Cesarean™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Educational Course for Parents
• State Medical Boards: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver
• How to File a Complaint for Obstetric Violence or Mistreatment in Birth - Birth Monopoly
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education

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Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue