Confusion and fear over lawsuits drives health care in the US and even more so within obstetrics and midwifery. In the midst of defensive medicine as default, many clinicians miss the one decision that provides ultimate litigation protection.

Hermine Hayes-Klein is single handedly changing the landscape relative to litigation within maternal health care. An informed consent expert and international civil and human rights attorney, she specializes in the abuse of women and birthing people by the maternal health system.

We will discuss:

• the cognitive disconnect among healthcare providers regarding informed consent during pregnancy and childbirth
• legal cases that illustrate widespread rights violations
• her recent $1.73 million jury verdict
• the legal and ethical mandates that protect pregnant women's rights
• the role of lawyers in enforcing these rights
• conventional wisdom like "you'll never be sued for a cesarean" and "liability concerns makes us do it"
• how doctors will be held accountable for not respecting patient rights
• why "birth can't be planned" is insulting
• how juries recognize trauma as an injury that matters
• why clinicians should support women's choices even if it scares them

Additionally, Jen talks about her upcoming VBAC training for the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health and answers a reader's question about prior uterine dehiscence and future uterine rupture risk.

00:00 Welcome To Episode 17!

02:07 Next VBAC Facts® Training

03:58 Reader Question: Prior Uterine Dehiscence

11:23 Telemedicine VBAC Consults

12:44 Introducing Hermine Hayes-Klein

14:06 The Violation of Informed Consent

17:34 "You'll Never Be Sued For Doing a Cesarean" And Other Myths

18:57 Perverse Liability Incentives

20:12 VBAC Resources

21:06 Doctors Will Be Held Accountable For Not Respecting Client's Rights

21:42 Rinat Dray's Forced Cesarean

25:33 $1.73 Million Dollar Judgement

26:39 Cognitive Disconnect in Maternity Care

31:18 "Birth Can't Be Planned" Is Insulting

32:11 Sample Birth Plan Language

32:31 Hooked Up & Induced, No Medical Reason

33:15 Running, Sobbing, Sleepwalking

33:44 Diagnosed with "Adjustment Disorder" Instead of PTSD

34:07 "The Kind of Abuse That Happens To Women Every Day"

35:00 "The Baby's Healthy, Why Are We Even Here?"

35:49 Babies Need Their Mothers To Be Healthy

36:11 Juries Recognize Trauma As An Injury That Matters

36:50 Hold Doctors Accountable For Doing What The Law Requires

36:59 Next Case Challenges, "You Are Not Allowed"

39:12 "The Very Real Risks of Cesarean Are Dumped Onto The Birthing Patient"

39:46 Birth Trauma Not About Mode of Delivery

40:22 Who is Liable for Complications?

41:17 "Liability Makes Us Do It" Is A Lie

41:42 VBAC Facts Courses

45:06 Should We "Go Slow?" Are We "There Yet?"

46:26 The Law of Informed Consent Means...

46:56 "Keep Telling Them That They Have To Strap Down For The Belt"

48:26 What Violating Informed Consent Looks Like

49:46 Bodily Autonomy "Goes Both Ways?"

51:15 Let's Be Clear About Maternal Death

52:33 News Articles When Women Die During Childbirth, Often, It's Cesarean

53:30 We Are Pro Evidence Based Care and Informed Consent

55:21 OBGYNs Should Support Patient Decisions, Even If It Scares Them

57:01 When An OB Realized Her Informed Consent Process Was Coercive

58:24 OB's Testimony Regarding Informed Consent

01:00:32 Women and Birthing People Are The Captain Of The Ship

01:01:13 Rights Exist Even In Rural Hospitals

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

• How to Navigate Forced Cesarean Threats with L&D RN Lexi Abeln, Birth Monopoly Founder Cristen Pascucci, and Hermine Hayes-Klein │ VBAC Facts® Professional Membership
• An Attorney's Guide to Navigating Informed Consent and Refusal with Hermine Hayes Klein │ VBAC Facts® Professional Membership
• Nina Simone: Mississippi Goddam │ YouTube
• The story behind Nina Simone's protest song, "Mississippi Goddam" | American Masters | PBS
• “Midwife Delivery Death Trial" judge comments: Home birth is a constitutional right | VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• E5: Autonomy, Authority, Coercion & Consent: Who Decides in Maternity Care? │ The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• Sign up for your copy of the VBAC Planning Checklist! | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Uterine Rupture Report! | VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education
• 3 Surprising Things National Guidelines Say About VBAC - VBAC Facts® Downloadable Handout