In this episode, I’m joined by one of America’s most thoughtful national journalists: Mike Grunwald. You may know him from his work at Time, Politico, or The Washington Post, or from his critically acclaimed books about the Obama administration and the history of the Everglades. He’s also now a contributing columnist at the New York Times. But for the purpose of this episode, Mike is here to discuss his third book, We Are Eating the Earth: The Race to Fix Our Food System and Save Our Climate.

In this sweeping and deeply reported work, Mike tackles one of the most uncomfortable truths of our time: our global food system, especially animal farming, is a leading driver of climate change, deforestation, wildlife extinction, and more. But rather than simply doomscroll through the apocalypse, We Are Eating the Earth offers a clear-eyed, often witty, and ultimately hopeful exploration of how we might transform our food system to produce more food while using fewer resources.

In our conversation, we discuss some of the biggest food and climate myths—like whether organic or so-called “regenerative” agriculture is necessarily better for the planet—as well as Mike’s views on what will actually work to slash humanity’s footprint on the planet. (Spoiler: eat less meat, waste less food, and use fewer biofuels are among his biggest points.)

Mike also clarifies his views on animal welfare, including the welfare of chickens and pigs, and his (lack of) concern about falling fertility rates. It’s a wide-ranging conversation that’s got something for everyone interested in a future with fewer hungry people and more land rewilded.