Social and Emotional Development Podcast
0:00 MUSIC
0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.
In this podcast, we'll be learning from an expert in the field about social and emotional development, what it means, its importance and some examples of how to grow these skills for your child's success.
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
We don't stop developing socially and emotionally, it starts when you're born, and it keeps going, because social and emotional development is really about how do we get along in life? How do we interact with other people? How do we organize ourselves to get things done?
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL
I'd like to introduce our guest for today's podcast, Dr. Maurice Elias is one of the pioneers of social and emotional development. He's a professor in the psychology department at Rutgers University, Director of the Rutgers Social-Emotional and Character Development Lab, and Co-director of the Academy for SEL in Schools. He's also a pioneer and founding member of the leadership team for CASEL, the Collaborative for Academic, Social and Emotional Learning. He's written Emotionally Intelligent Parenting, Talking Treasure: Stories to Help Build Emotional Intelligence and Resilience in Young Children, The Joys & Oys of Parenting and Nurturing Students' Character: Everyday Teaching Activities for Social-Emotional Learning. He blogs on social and emotional development at edutopia.org, and he lectures nationally and internationally.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
Well, let's start today by having you explain a little bit more of what is meant by social and emotional development.
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
I should preface this by saying, I have a new granddaughter who is three months plus old, so this gives me a perspective on seeing how everything develops. You see her physical development, you see her social development and how she engages with her parents and with other people. You see her, you see her emotional development, how she is able to control herself, and, and so when you have the privilege of watching, uh, a newborn, especially as a grandparent, um, you just see everything develops, and of course that includes your social and emotional person.
Um, and, and of... and we don't stop developing socially and emotionally, i- it starts when you're born, and we... it keeps going, because social and emotional development is really about how do we get along in life? How do we interact with other people? How do we organize ourselves to get things done? Um, all of that depends on, on aspects of our social and emotional development, and so, uh, so these are, uh, skills that everybody, uh, starts with and... that we want to develop over time, so that people can handle situations, manage well, um, you know, live a productive and constructive life and deal with other people and know how to do that. So that's kind of, uh, you know, that's kind of what social and emotional development is about, it's, it's critically important to everybody.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
What do you think some things, um, that parents might misunderstand about social and emotional development?
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Well, you know, I think sometimes, uh, people think in terms of character, and they think that certain things are inborn, that, you know, "My kid's a certain kind of kid," and, then that's just the way they are, but in reality, uh, we have... we, we come, we come out with like these different factory presets. You know, some kids are indeed calmer than others, and some kids are indeed more active than others, but all of these things can be modified over time by the way we treat kids and the way they interact with the world. So I think one, um, misconception that parents have, is the extent to which social and emotional development is about skills that you can learn.
So, for example, you can learn how to calm yourself down when you're upset, and another important skill that kids actually learn is empathy, uh, it is not something that, you know, whether you're empathic or not is inborn, uh, it's something that over time, uh, we help kids learn, in part by our modeling, our own modeling as parents, and also by how we encourage kids to respond when they see other people in distress. And here's another important skill, and that is the ability to recognize how others are feeling. Now I've talked to parents who said, "You know, sometimes my kids will come over to me when I'm very upset, and they'll ask me for something and I'll say to them, "Don't you see the look on my face? Don't you see my neck vein bulging out of my, my side here?"" And the answer to the question is, no, they don't see that because they haven't been taught to look at it.
And so, yes, indeed, if we are taught to look at other people's faces, look at their body language and expression, we can infer a lot about them, but if we are not taught to do that and not encouraged to do that, well, then we don't do it, and so then people... we end up thinking that people feel the way we want them to feel, well, that's not, that's not a good idea for good long-term relationships, you gotta know how people are feeling by being observant, and, and this is a skill that develops over to time. So, so, you know, no matter where we look in social and emotional development, um, there are things that, uh, teachers and other educators and coaches and parents do that influence the, the track that their kids are on.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
Well, I think for me as a parent, that... realizing that it is a s... that you're talking about skills that can be developed, it gives me an opportunity to rest into the fact that I have control over the outcome (laughs) of, of my, my child's success, and I really can access tools to grow their skills and, and grow their successes, so-
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Right.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
... I think for me, understanding that part of social and emotional development, made me take a deep breath in my parenting, because I... it's a process, and it's a, it's a process learned over a lifetime, um-
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Right.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
... rather than, rather than an aspect of them that- that's born.
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Yeah, you know, you know, here's something very interesting that, uh... and, and I'm, I'm speaking now as a licensed clinical psychologist. So, so when kids seem to be having a very difficult time, they end up being brought to a therapist and, and what happens in therapy? Well, the therapist in, in essence re... helps the kid relearn and learn new skills, and so, so it's so funny that when kids have difficulty, we desperately hope that they can learn new skills, but yet until they have difficulty, sometimes we don't think that we have to teach them those skills, and, you know, for me, it's all about prevention.
I actually stopped seeing kids clinically because I was much more interested in spending time strengthening kids so that they wouldn't need to see clinicians, and turns out that, uh, that the things that you do when a child is in therapy are really the same things that you can do when they're, when they're younger to teach those skills, um, but yet it, it seems more, uh, I don't know, sort of acceptable, or... I'm not sure what the right word is, it's just something that we, we do when the kids have difficulty, um, but we are a little more reluctant to do when they don't have difficulty.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
So let's go back and talk a little bit about what brought you here, so when did you realize social and emotional development was gaining traction for you, or when did you realize that this is where you wanted to spend a, a career?
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Well, you know, it actually occurred as part of my own clinical training. Um, I was an intern in a child and family treatment center in Hartford, Connecticut, which is an urban setting, and, uh, and you know, when you're an intern, very often, you're invisible. You- you'll sit in a room and the staff members will talk as if you're not there, and this happened to me all the time. And I was listening to staff members coming back after their sessions with families, and they were saying, "If only the parents had done this, if only the school had done that, if only this, if only that," and I'm listening and I'm saying, "Well, why couldn't these things happen? Why are we saying if only."
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Uh, and so I began to think about how... if we move upstream, so to speak, and see why the problems are getting downstream, and, and, and look at the causes, that we can have an impact, and so I found myself gravitating more toward prevention than treatment, and, and that's kind of what got me started. And then, um, I had the good fortune to work with, uh, two individuals, George Spivack and Myrna Shure-
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
... uh, to whom I'm so indebted uh, as a professional, um, who, who began to understand that when kids were getting into psychological difficulty like depression, like anxiety, like oppositional defiant disorder behavior, that, that the reason for that was, that they were not applying social and emotional skills. And so, uh, they began and encouraged me to begin to work early in life with kids and, and begin to follow a progression of how are we gonna help kids learn these skills early in life and keep teaching it to them as they become middle schooler, adolescents, college students, parents, etc, etc.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
So along the way, have you had any big surprises that you've learned in the study of social and emotional development?
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Well, I think what we've, uh... what was surprising to me, was the extent to which these, uh, these competencies can be learned. Uh, I, I, I, I admit that my, my initial reaction, and maybe it was just because of my training and, and, and... I don't know, just, maybe we're all just brought up thinking in terms of people's traits, and traits always seem very hard to change, and, you know, and, and how many of us have grown up with people, maybe our parents or grandparents and say, "Oh, they... this is the way they are, this is the way they're always gonna be." So, you know, it all gets into all of us, I think, but I began to see, by starting to work with our young kids, how receptive, uh, they are to learning all kinds of things, including how to treat each other, uh, well and nicely.
Um, so much of what happens with our kids depends on our expectations for them. If we expect our kids to treat... siblings, for example, if we expect our siblings to treat each other kindly with compassion and, and we are absolutely clear that, that sibling fighting, physical fighting is just not acceptable, um, vast majority of the time you find kids that... siblings that will start to treat each other well, and they don't beat each other up.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
Right.
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Um, now again, because sometimes when people are brought up in certain circumstances, like maybe you're brought up fighting with your sibling, you, you figure, well, it's just an inevitability, um, but it's not an inevitability, and, uh, and, and if we set about to teach our kids, uh, certain, uh, competencies in, in the way they get along with each other, we can be successful a lot of the time. So I was surprised about that, um, uh, pleasantly so, and then that, you know, then that morphed into my work in schools, where, uh, where it began to be clear that the way we set up the school environment and what we expect from kids becomes very important in how they engage with each other, and, you know, I s... the more time I spent in schools, the more I realized that what happens in a school, academically, depends on what the kids are doing socially and emotionally.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
The idea that kids are gonna walk into a school building, 180 school days, and as soon as the bell rings, they're ready to learn, it's not very realistic.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
(laughs)
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Some of the kids are coming from dan- dangerous neighborhoods, some of the kids are coming from difficult home situations, kids are now are coming from homes that are directly or indirectly affected by COVID-19 pandemic, so to think that they're automatically ready to start learning just as soon as the bell rings, that- that's not a good assumption. So if we help our kids, um, just kind of get their emotions set before the start of the school day or before we really delve into instruction, we're gonna find that they become much more receptive, and in fact, learn more, they forget less, which means we can make more progress, academically, with the kids, um, but the only way to do that is by being attentive to where they're at socially and emotionally.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
So is, is that what brought you to the place to write Emotionally Intelligent Parenting?
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Well, honestly, what brought me to that place was my work, uh, with my two colleagues, Brian Friedlander, and Steve Tobias as clinicians, and, and, and we were having this if-only experience. We were saying... so, so here, when, when people come to us in therapy, we're doing this social skills teaching and social and emotional development instruction, well, why can't we just move that up and help parents understand this, um, when they're first having their kids. So that's really what the book consists of, it's sort of like an early warning system, uh-
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
... for parents, "Here are the things you can do so you're less likely to have your kids run into trouble," and, and it's all based on what happens in everyday routines. You know, it's not like parents are gonna, you know, get up with a chalkboard and start teaching this skills to their kid, it happens around the dinner table, it happens as we get ready for the next school day, the night before, it happens around our bedtime routines, it happens on our car rides, it happens in the way we talk to our kids, in the way we set up our rule structures and routines.
Um, uh, let me give you one very specific example of a small thing that makes a very big difference, so you know, how often, as parents, when we're with our kids, we say, "It's time to go," why is it time to go? Because for about 20 minutes, we've been looking for a way to get out of this situation we're in, we've had enough, and, and at some point, we say, "It's time to go." Well for the kids, maybe it's not time to go, maybe they just started playing a game or maybe they're having a great conversation, why is it time to go? Because the adult decided it was time to go.
So when we tell our kids things like, "We're leaving in five minutes," that communicates many things to our kids, number one, it communicates, we respect you, that we respect your time, number two, it's that we expect that you have the ability to organize yourself to get ready to go in 5 minutes, because it's gonna be 5 minutes, not gonna be 25 minutes or 35 minutes or 40 minutes, it's gonna be 5 minutes and we're going. Um, and, and so we're asking our kids to build their planning skills, "Okay, I got five minutes left, what do I wanna say? What do I wanna do? How do I wanna bring this game to a close? How do I wanna continue this conversation?" All of this cognitive activity is tremendously skill building for our kids, and it's all contain in the very small thing, "We're gonna leave in five minutes," as opposed to, "It's time to go right now," right? Um, let's take another great example, one of my favorites, breakfast time-
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
(laughs)
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
... right, parent asks the kid, "What do you want for breakfast?" Kid says, "Well, you know, I really like some pancakes with some fruit and maybe some chocolate chips in the pancakes," the parent says, "We don't have time for that," well, w- why are you saying that? So, so now we've got a situation where we've given the kid a, a, a question, and then... we, we, we knew the answer from the beginning. So giving our kids structured choices is an incredibly powerful thing to do, it's more powerful than just putting a breakfast like right on the table and saying, "Eat this or el... and that's it."
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
(laughs)
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
So we say to the kids, "Well, d- do you want cereal, or do you want oatmeal?" Or, "We got three different choices of cereal, which kind of cereal do you wanna have?" Those things make your kids cognitively become better problem solvers, they gotta think, "Well, Hmm, which do I want? What is my preference? Why do I want this or that?" And then of course, whatever answer they give you, you can comply with, because you have, you have set the choices, right?
For all kinds of routines, giving our kids choices builds so many important social and emotional skills, and not only that, it models the asking of questions, and one of the things that our kids have to do for the future that we know they're gonna have to do for the future is not just answer questions in school and in other places, they're have to ask good questions, and so we can't be upset if our kids say to us, "Well, why do I have to have cereal?" Because then we have to have an explanation, "Well, you have to have cereal because we only have 12 minutes to get breakfast done so we can get out of the house, so I can be on time, so you can be on time, everybody can be on time, that's why we're having cereal." So if a kid... if the kid turns around and says, "Well, you know, if I have a slice of toast, it will take eight minutes-"
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
(laughs)
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
... you know, that's shows good planning on their part, some analysis skills, some good conversational skills, and then if we sort of go along with that, we're again, giving our kids a great deal of respect and credit for understanding the situation in the household and working with us. So, so, you know, you, you could take any number of situations you like, and the way we interact with our kids does a tremendous amount with regard to their social and emotional development, and so in Emotionally Intelligent Parenting, we just sort of articulate that so that parents can sort of say, "Oh yeah, oh, in this situation, in that situation." They could see a lot of what they're doing in those situations, and maybe how, with a little tweaking, um, they can promote the skills of their kids even more.
ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:
So let's talk a little bit about, what we know about the importance of social and emotional development, so can you speak a little bit about what we know from the research around social and emotional development?
DR. MAURICE ELIAS:
Right. So, so here's, here's how I would summarize the research, and there are hundreds of studies that talk about this, and, and the way I would summarize it is that social and emotional skills help make our valued outcomes happen. So, so, you know, we could talk about social and emotional skills, but it's, it's, I think, more relevant to talk about how do social and emotional skills help kids avoid depression, or if they are depressed, get out of it more quickly? How do they help our kids be less anxious? How do they help our kids be better academically? How do they help our kids be more understanding of, of, of human...