Parent Judgment Podcast

0:00 MUSIC

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.

I'm sure you've heard it too, the judgment that parents these days aren't doing a good job, that parents are out of touch or too soft, that they give in to their kids too easily, they're over involved helicopter parents or under involved don't care parents. Maybe you heard some unsolicited advice on your parenting choices, your birthing choice, your feeding practice or your sleep routines. 

In this podcast, we'll be talking about parent judgment. 

BARB HOPKIN:

I really feel that this is such an important topic for community and for parents to support each other and understand each other on our unique path is so critical to avoiding judgment. And you know, parenting is not easy, and there's definitely not a right way to handle challenges or even to celebrate successes. So knowing that we have the ability to confidently navigate judgment from others, while still being very mindful of differences in parenting so as not to pass judgment will not only help us grow as parents and do the best for our children, but also create that supportive parenting community that can be so healthy for parents and their children.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Parent judgment can manifest in different ways including overt criticism, unsolicited advice, subtle disapproval, gossip, or even silent disapproving glances. 

Parent judgment can have a significant impact on the well-being and confidence of parents who experience it. It can lead to feelings of self-doubt, guilt, shame or frustration. And it can also create a sense of isolation and make parents hesitate to seek support or share their challenges for fear of being judged.

BARB HOPKIN:

We all have the power to define our worth as a parent. So really focusing on what's most important, our child's happiness, trusting our instincts, and having that supportive network or reaching out for professional help when needed.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I'd like to introduce our guests for today's podcast, Barbara Hopkin. Barb earned her master's degree in counseling from the University of Wyoming. She's worked with children and families as a community mental health counselor and as a school counselor. More recently, she's played a critical role developing the tools and resources that are found on ToolsforYourChildsSuccess.org. So welcome, Barb.

BARB HOPKIN:

Thank you, Annmarie. I'm so excited to be here. Parent judgment is such an important topic for parents who feel judged as well as parents who find themselves judging. As parents, we always tend to be our own harshest critic, so knowing how to deal with judgment is really important to growing our confidence. And oftentimes, the times when judgment comes up, parents need support more than ever.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So parents judge each other in a lot of situations and on a range of parenting choices and behaviors. Let's just talk about some of those situations where parents tend to judge each other.

BARB HOPKIN:

There are quite a few situations where judgment comes up, ranging from parenting styles when it comes to different disciplinary approaches, attachment parenting, free range parenting, authoritative parenting versus permissive parenting. A lot of judgment can come up when it comes to feeding and nutrition, breastfeeding versus formula feeding, when to introduce solid foods and then dietary choices as kids grow. Screen time and technology use can definitely be a topic that brings judgment, varying limits on screen time, what's age appropriate content wise, electronic device use it can all have very different approaches from different parents, which leads to judgment. When it comes to education, the choice between home school and public school, private school and unschooling, there's so many choices. Judgment also definitely comes up when it comes to sleeping practices, co-sleeping, different sleep training methods, bedtimes, bedtime routines.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So when I started prepping for this podcast, I just thought this isn't, this isn't me or you know, but then when you start listing all of these scenarios, I started having this like cringe-y feeling because I remember that time of breastfeeding versus formula feeding, or am I going to home school or public school so that brings up a lot of old memories just when my kids are little. What are some others? Are there some more common scenarios? 

BARB HOPKIN:

I think there's so many. When it comes to child care arrangements, being a stay at home parent versus working parents, daycare versus having a nanny, parent involvement when it comes to balancing work and family and then school activities and extracurricular participation, things get really busy and different approaches come up on how to handle that. Sports and activity involvement, there's a push to keep kids busy and active and involved. And there's also a push to be unbusy and have weekends and evenings free.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I'm dealing with that right now, I think as a parent.

BARB HOPKIN:

Yes, it gets to be a lot and everyone has strong feelings and different ideas.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

What else?

BARB HOPKIN:

I think when it comes to safety measures and car seat use and childproofing your home, outdoor supervision, what's safe and what's not safe is different between parents. Another big topic would definitely be discipline and consequences. How do you approach discipline? Is timeout okay? What kind of positive reinforcement is appropriate? What about spanking? There's lots of different ideas out there that can bring strong emotions from parents.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hmm, that's a hot topic for sure.

BARB HOPKIN:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). More recently, with health and wellness, vaccines, and when to vaccinate versus not, all holistic medicine, alternative medicine, medication choices, there's just so many different things out there because parenting is very complex.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So those I know are probably just a few examples and listening to those, they, more than one of them really, really hit home. And I think that parent judgment can occur in a lot of other areas and parenting as well. It's interesting, though, because judgment might come from strangers in public or maybe extended family and friends or folks just giving unsolicited feedback, or even people that are more vocal and you know, give some negative comments about your parenting style or even your child. It's not always strangers. And this is what I always struggle with. You know, sometimes it's your own mom or your mother-in-law insisting they know what's best as you raise your kids. I remember being a new mom at the grocery store with my son being stopped by a stranger to say that I shouldn't allow him to use a pacifier. I know they probably meant well. But if you're already second guessing yourself as a parent, hearing judgment like that can be really hard to handle. Do you have any personal experiences where you felt judged as a parent? And how did you handle it?

BARB HOPKIN:

Yes, I can see how that would be hard to handle being approached by a stranger. I remember my very first day back to work after having my daughter, a co-worker approached me and made the comment that his wife would never be able to leave their babies in daycare or at home, and he didn't know how I was doing it.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Oh, gee.

BARB HOPKIN:

And I already really missed my daughter and felt guilty about leaving her. So it was not the comment I needed that day. Thinking back, I think I just took it with some grace and tried to get out of the conversation. I at the time didn't really know how to handle it other than feeling sad that he said that and guilty about not being with my daughter, but also being excited to be at work.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Parenting is just daunting in general. And it's deeply personal. It stirs up a lot of insecurities. And you know, maybe when I had my kids, I don't know if I was prepared to sort of handle all of those insecurities, but it really puts us in an incredibly vulnerable place. Seeing other parents do things differently with their children can trigger some of that insecurity that we have in ourselves and often, you know, we, to deflect that, we turn to judgment. What are some potential reasons behind the tendency to judge each other? I just think if we can get to that root, maybe we can start having some honest conversations about the tendency to judge.

BARB HOPKIN:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), absolutely. I think judgment can stem from a lot of different places, personal beliefs, societal influences and individual insecurities. There are a lot of cultural and societal expectations out there. Society holds a certain expectation about parenting practices, and individuals may judge others based on how well they conform to those in societal norms. Differences in parenting styles, choices or practices can be seen as deviating from the expected or accepted norms, and that leads to judgment.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Even in my own family, I remember just sort of our cultural norms of raising, you know, raising kids in my immediate family, and deviating from some of those was really, really hard. And I did feel that judgment. What else?

BARB HOPKIN:

I think personal biases and beliefs. We all bring our own set of beliefs and values and experiences to our parenting. And when encountering parents who have a different perspective or making different choices, individuals might judge based on their own biases and preconceptions viewing their own choices the right or superior one. It's hard not to stand up for what you do yourself.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Oh, and that just putting your -- that superiority or feeling superiority, that I definitely can identify with feeling that from, from other folks too.

BARB HOPKIN:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

What else?

BARB HOPKIN:

Yeah, I think fear and insecurity play into judgment too. Parenting can be so complex and challenging. We're all on our own journey. And some individuals may feel insecure about their own parenting choices or their own abilities. And so then when they're trying to validate their own decisions, they may judge and criticize others as a way to affirm their own sense of competence and alleviate their own anxieties they may have with parenting.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I mean, a lot of times it is just, you know, a lack of understanding or awareness. People judge what they don't understand, I think.

BARB HOPKIN:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

And having really limited exposure to diverse parenting practices, or, or a lack of knowledge about different parenting approaches can contribute to that judgment. What else? What are some other reasons behind the tendency to judge?

BARB HOPKIN:

You know, I think the world can be such a competitive place and comparison plays into that. The culture of comparison and competition is prevalent all over. And so parents compare themselves to others and use judgment as a means to establish a sense of superiority or to feel better about their own choices as parents.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Oh, and I think that is reinforced from media and, and social platforms. We'll talk a little bit more about that later. But I think the way media portrays and social media portrays families can really perpetuate unrealistic standards for parenting. And then, you know, just watching someone's highlight reel of, of their life, and that's shared on a social platform can really distort perception of reality and, and really contribute to judgment.

BARB HOPKIN:

That's very true. It's such a part of the world now and changes the way that we think about things sometimes.

BARB HOPKIN:

I think fear of the unknown can also really come up. Parenting involves navigating the unknown and facing uncertainties every day and all the time as new things come up. So when parents encounter approaches or choices that are unfamiliar or different from their own, it can really trigger a sense of unease or fear. And then in response, some people may judge what they perceive as unconventional or unfamiliar, in order to create a sense of certainty and control in their own world.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Parenting judgment can manifest in different ways, including overt and subtle criticism, silent disapproving glances, or even unsolicited advice. That unsolicited advice often plays a significant role in parent judgment. While advice can be really well intentioned, it can contribute to parent judgment when it's given without consideration to the individual circumstances, preferences or values of the recipient. What role do you see unsolicited advice plays in parent judgment?

BARB HOPKIN:

You know, I think unsolicited advice really intersects with parent judgment. It involves imposing one's views on someone else. So it can be seen as an attempt to really impose one's own beliefs and values or parenting choices onto someone else. It really implies that there is a right or better way to parent and disregards the fact that each parent has unique circumstances and preferences within their family. And it's really undermining to parental autonomy. When unsolicited advice is given, it can undermine the parent's sense of autonomy and confidence in their own decision making. It implies that the person offering advice knows better or has superior knowledge and disregards the parents' own expertise and intuition.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

It can really amplify feelings of guilt and self-doubt that parents have too and make them question their own choices and abilities, really leading to anxiety and stress. This constant exposure to unsolicited advice can really erode a parent's self-confidence.

BARB HOPKIN:

Yes, that unsolicited advice arises from a place of compassion, where one person believes that their parenting is superior to others. But it can contribute to a judgmental attitude with the underlying assumption that if someone is not following the advice, they must be doing something wrong or inferior, and it ignores individual circumstances. So when unsolicited advice comes up, it tends to overlook that family's unique circumstance, their values and their, and the preferences of the recipient of the advice. So it fails to consider their child's specific needs and challenges.

So, when unsolicited advice is given, it tends to overlook the unique circumstances, values and preferences of the recipient. It doesn't consider the specific needs and challenges that each parent and child could be facing, leading to advice that may not be relevant or even suitable.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I think it's important to note that not all advice is negative or judgmental. In some cases, unsolicited advice really could come from a place of genuine concern or a desire to help but it really becomes problematic when it lacks empathy or respect or consideration for, you know, autonomy or circumstances.

BARB HOPKIN:

I totally agree. And sometimes it's a function of not being aware of those circumstances. So knowing that we don't know everything going on in a family can be really important to pause and not pass judgment.

So it's really important to respect boundaries and offer advice only when requested. If you're unsure, it's okay to ask. You might say “It sounds like you're working really hard on your bedtime routine. Would you like to try a new idea?” It's equally important to approach conversations about parenting choices with empathy, openness and willingness to understand and validate different perspectives.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Let's talk a little bit more about media. So I think that media, even like traditional media outlets and social media platforms can really contribute to the perpetuation of parent judgment. So let's talk about the role you think media and social media play in that aspect of parent judgment and perpetuating parent judgment.

BARB HOPKIN:

I think as you were saying, when we see kind of the best version of someone's parenting online and in social media, it's easy not to feel like we don't have it together. We're, you know, not living up to that standard, when really, no one posts or rarely are there posts about the worst part of the day or the hardest moment that week. So it just can be really easy to feel like everyone else is maybe doing, doing it better or their kids are happier. And that can lead to a lot of self judgment, as well as judging some things that other parents might post that we don't agree with.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

There is that just unrealistic portrayal of, of parenting at times, and I think I've gotten better at, at sorting through the reality or trying not to let that affect me. But, but still, it is such a comparison culture right now. You know, watching those curated best moments, and I do it too. I mean, I don't post, you know, the bedtime struggle, but I definitely post the vacation pictures. And so, you know, thinking about how I contribute, contribute to that as well. What are other ways that you think media and social media contribute?

BARB HOPKIN:

You know, I think that there is a big lack of context sometimes. We don't see the necessary context behind parenting choices. We don't know the whole story. And without understanding a parent's reasoning and beliefs, or their very specific circumstances that inform their choices, people are more likely to pass quick judgments based on their own assumptions and biases.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I think, too, that traditional media has a way of really sensationalizing stories. You know, when I turn on the news at night, it's, it's those highlighted extreme cases that parents see. Usually that's in the negative. But if we're not aware of that, that can really distort our perception of our typical parenting choices and really create a climate where judgment is directed toward those people who make unconventional decisions. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Is there anything else?

BARB HOPKIN:

I think another place that judgment can definitely come up, the comment sections of different online forums and platforms can really be a breeding ground for judgment and criticism. You don't see the person. You don't see the hurt on their face when things are said. So opinions are shared without consequences and can really lead to some harsh judgment and comments that further perpetuate those negative attitudes towards parenting choices, and drive parents further apart.

So I think with all of those things in mind, it's really important to approach media and social media with a critical lens and be mindful of their potential impact on our own attitudes and perceptions. Being aware of the biases, and how everybody tends to portray this ideal version of parenting and limitations of media representations can help us challenge the judgmental narratives and cultivate a more empathetic and understanding approach to parenting. I think also, creating our own social media feeds to include diverse voices and perspectives can contribute to more balanced and inclusive representation of parenting experiences. So working to not, you know, inadvertently perpetuate those...

Improve Your relationship with Your Parenting Partner Podcast - Part 2

0:00 MUSIC 

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.

This is the second podcast of two where we’re talking about intentional ways to grow a healthy relationship with your parenting partner. If you haven’t already listened to Part 1 yet, that’s OK. You might want to listen to it next.

As parents, we want to be at our best for our children. I've learned that if I want to be at my best, I need to take care of my own health and wellbeing and that includes learning ways to improve my relationship with my parenting partner.

Many of us experience changes in our relationship when we become parents, a child can bring about positive changes, there might be a new and different level of connection. A child can bring about strains too, less sleep, less time to talk, less time to spend together. 

We might find ourselves disagreeing more, we might not have the energy to sort out the differences as they arise. Intentionally growing a healthy relationship with your parenting partner means that we are nurturing and strengthening our relationship, often by figuring out ways to communicate in a way that deepens our intimacy. 

I'd like to re-introduce our guests for the podcast, Tom and Mary Frances Burke who have been married for 42 years, Steve and Debbie Robbins who have been married 37 years, and Father Tom Ogg, who has been a priest for 54 years.

Together they have over 100 years of working together with couples to help them listen and share and connect more deeply in their relationships. 

In Part 1, we learned about how trust and being able to communicate about our feelings creates a foundation for strong relationships between parenting partners. 

We heard a definition of feelings... 

FR. TOM OGG:

What is a feeling? And the understanding or the definition, if you will, that I like is an inner, spontaneous reaction to something outside, to another person, another situation, to an event, something outside ourselves, but it's an inner, spontaneous reaction. And if I have that that frees me up for lots of things so that I can talk about it, I can fuss about it, I can do whatever, and not be hurting anybody. It's me, my insides.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

And how this definition really can change how we approach communicating about our feelings…

MARY FRANCES BURKE:

I think when we accept the basic tenet that feelings just happen. We don't choose to feel angry, we don't choose to feel happy, we just are. We have a good friend who says, "Feelings are like a sneeze," it just happens. And I think when we accept that basic tenet, we can let down our defenses and talk in a more civil, polite, understanding way about the situation, we're much less likely to be defensive and angry, "Well, you shouldn't feel that way," or, "I didn't make you feel that way," or, "That's not my problem, that's your problem, fix it."

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I think the ability to identify and name your feelings is so foundational, but for you to listen to each other is another skill that can be practiced and grown. So, let’s start Part 2 on the skill of listening. How do we become better at listening?

DEBBIE ROBBINS:

I am a terrible listener, but I have forced myself to start to learn. And I think when Steve is communicating at a deeper level, when he is talking about his feelings, it is really my responsibility to listen deeply and understand and ask questions. "Well, when else have you felt like that? What color is that? What smell is that? What other vision does it bring, if this feeling were on the street, what would it be doing?" And trying to just put myself totally 100% focused on him at the moment really has helped me to learn to listen and to let go of everything that's going on in my head.

And I used to be one of those people who was listening in order to respond to you because I wanted to make sure I got my 25,000 words a day in or whatever it is, Steve would tell it's more than that. And so my listening patterns, I had a lot of barriers to listening and I had to learn what those barriers were and truly focus on him. So I look at him, we face each other, we remove distractions, that helps me learn to listen better to him.

TOM BURKE:

I think for me, when I hear the words I feel, that really perks my ears up because I know this is important information. And so being able to clue in, I really want to know what it's like to be Mary Frances. I want to know what it's like for her experience to be in relationship with me. And so in order to get there, I really have to listen. And listening is an act of love. I think Debbie touched on this earlier of choosing to love or decision to love, listening is very much that. Mary Frances mentioned I like to talk.

And so for me, the first thing I have to do is shut off the mouth and let the ears work. And so that's a step one, but it goes much deeper than that. It's really wanting to know what is the experience of the other person. And that's where the act of listening or listening with your heart comes in and that kind of listening, and then perhaps giving some feedback is a way of letting the person know, "Oh, he gets me." And what a gift to be understood on that level. That's what active listening really does.

MARY FRANCES BURKE:

I think active listening also involves asking questions of the other to learn more and to draw that other person out. And that's really crucial with me because I can be very concise and a woman of few words and Tom really needs to oftentimes draw out more information. I listen and I talk all day at work and when I come home, I'm sick and tired of listening and talking all day, I just want to absorb and soak into peace and quiet.

STEVE ROBBINS:   

And I think listening can be a behavior to change. I know as a guy, I like to fix things. And when Deb would come home and say something, I was immediately trying to fix whatever the situation may might be instead of active listening to what her feelings were and what was going on inside of her. So by changing my behavior and truly listening has been very beneficial in just expanding our relationship and understanding each other.

FR. TOM OGG:        

Well, there's so many different aspects to listening. We can listen and one of my bad habits was I would listen until I really thought I understood. And then I would want to do, like Steve said, fix it or to respond. I have my answer ready to go. As soon as they stopped talking, which is not very helpful because that means I stopped listening somewhere in the process because I had what I thought I needed and I wasn't tuned into the other person. And oftentimes my experience now is that the better I listen, the less I have to say, because a person will, at some point, they want to be heard, understood, appreciated, loved, whatever it is, but they have needs too, and they're trying to communicate those needs to us. And spouses do that just as much as anybody else in relationship, whether it's in the workplace or in the home, it's again, pretty basic that it's kind of nice to be known and appreciated or understood.

MARY FRANCES BURKE:

I want to key off of something that father Tom said, to listen, to fix someone else. And I think there we've all been in that situation before where we're just, "All I want to do is share my frustration of something that happened at work today and I don't need you to tell me in 15 different ways how I could have done it differently and try and fix it so it happens differently the next time around." That's almost an erroneous way of listening. We don't want to listen to fix someone. You listen to understand, to get to know them better and more deeply, and to love them. If you have a suggestion, say, "Could I offer a suggestion?" And ask permission. Don't just assume that because they're telling you something and you've got the perfect right answer, that that's what they want to hear. Because nine times out of 10, they're just want to vent and they need a shoulder, they don't need to be fixed.

TOM BURKE:           

I think the other thing I was going to say on that is when we're listening with our heart, we don't judge the other person. And so sometimes we might ask a question, "Well, why do you feel that way?" And it's the innocent mistake, but I'll tell you right now, it's a big mistake because the why question implies that you're broken, this is screwed up, you blew it, "Why did you do that?" And what really would be a more constructive question would be, "Tell me more about that. I don't know how that ended up ending that way." And if you can get the judgment out and just say, "I really want to understand this feeling. I really want to get to the heart of this feeling and it's not right or wrong, and I'm not blaming you. I'm not blaming me. I'm just trying to listen to understand, listen, to get to know you better." That is the real key to active listening.

MARY FRANCES BURKE:

And I think sometimes something as simple as saying, "I can really, I sense your hurt. I can feel it just in looking at the expression." That affirms that feeling in your spouse. And that's just so gratifying rather than saying, "Here, let me fix you."

DEBBIE ROBBINS:

And I think I learned very early in my work career and it helped me learn this in our partnering relationship, particularly when you're dealing with parenting issues, is if a person keeps repeating themselves over and over again, it's because they don't feel listened to. And so asking those questions, "Well, how does this feel? Tell me more, help me understand this better." Those kinds of responses in your communication can really help dig to the core, but it also lets the person know, "I'm listening. I want to hear you. I want to understand what it's like to be feeling what you're feeling at this moment." And when you use that active listening technique and you truly are listening, that person feels it and they'll stop repeating themselves over and over and over again because now they feel listened to,

FR. TOM OGG:

With all this discussion about listening. One of the things that I think is very important is nonverbal communication, which is a different form of listening. We're not listening with our heart to grasp or appreciate the intention or the desire of the other, but with the eyes we listen with our eyes too, meaning, look at the expression on a person's face, it says something. And I've been told that non-verbal does not lie. It may be misunderstood or misinterpreted, but they're very powerful. And whether a person's sitting there with a clenched fist under the table, that's saying something pretty clearly, that rolling eyeball, that's another example of... I'd enjoy, especially watching couples when they wink at each other, they're connecting, they got the message, they're relating very well in that capacity and not saying a word. I also have been in situations where, where people don't have to communicate in words to really communicate.

I remember an example some years ago with this elderly couple, I really admired. And we were sitting there visiting and she got up and went over to the bookshelf and picked out a book and brought it back and handed it to him. And I noticed this and I said, afterwards, I said, "What happened with that? Well, she knew I wanted it." They had that depth of relationship that was so powerful and it was just one example of this couple that I knew, that were just amazing, their ability to connect to be intimate in a very nonverbal and even non-physical way, but it was deep and powerful. So I'm just wanting to push that button a bit by saying non-verbal communication is very important. That look on a face when a person isn't aware that you're looking at them, you can see things and hopefully try to use that helpfully.

DEBBIE ROBBINS:

Can I just add to that? Sometimes when we're talking about feelings, you had mentioned, Father Tom, that sometimes it can be misunderstood or misinterpreted. And so if Steve sits back and crosses his arms when we're talking, I might stop myself and ask him, "Your body posture just changed, are you disinterested? Are you feeling something different?" Instead of assuming that he's not interested or mad anymore, based on the body posture, I choose to ask, to clarify, so that I don't misinterpret that.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So asking for clarification seems very important – especially if I might draw conclusions about my partner based on something they are doing. This brings up another concern I have: What if my partner shares a feeling that surprises me – something I was expecting?

FR. TOM OGG:

Well, there's lots of ways to respond, but I'm thinking there's, again, patterns. An example of that would be, "Why are you feeling that way? Where'd that feeling come from?" That kind of thing. It's in effect rejecting the feeling that's offered. And another one might be toleration, you tolerate the feeling, "Oh, I'm sorry. You feel that way. That's too bad. Tough." There's different ways of toleration like that too, but the obvious gift of sharing feelings is accepting the feeling and the person who's feeling that way. Acceptance. And there's an example that can help with that, I think at least it helped me when I first heard it. And that was that someone gives me a sweater for a gift. Rejection is, "I don't like a color. Why are you giving me a sweater?" Toleration is, "Oh, this is nice. Thanks a lot. I really like it," but you never wear it. That's a pretty good clue of something else that's tolerating or avoiding it.

The acceptance is you get the sweater, you look at it and say, "Oh, this, this is great." And you enjoy it, you acknowledge the giver as well as the sweater and you wear it. So you're accepting the person with the feeling or with the gift that we receive. And feelings are, again, because it's part of who I am really on the inside, it's a gift. It's a gift to hear how another's feeling. And again, remember it doesn't matter if it's positive or negative. It's a matter of saying, "I'm hearing you. I get you. I appreciate you being honest with me. You being forthright, you being real, just telling the truth." If you're having a crappy day, you acknowledge that. If you're having a good day, that's even better, but we don't rely on the quality of the gift, the quality of the feeling, because remember they're neutral.

DEBBIE ROBBINS:

So to continue with the analogy that it is a gift, sharing feelings is a gift. How do you respond when somebody shares something that surprises you or catches you off guard, or you don't know what to say? Just like you would a gift. "Thank you." You said thank you for sharing. You don't have to say anything more than just thank you.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:    

Let's spend a few minutes talking about how our relationship impacts our family. So folks are listening to the podcast. I'd like to hear some of your thoughts on the impacts that your relationship has on your parenting partner on your family.

TOM BURKE:           

I think there's a number of things. One is that if we are together on a subject and we understand each other and we are there to kind of validate each other, children will often try to triangulate and will maybe pit mom against dad, or sometimes they'll just push our buttons just to see how pushing this button works, that's one of the things kids do. And so recognizing that maybe one of us is getting stressed by a situation that a child is doing, we might be fresher. The other person might be able to jump in and kind of redirect the situation. So when you're tuned into how your partner is handling a situation, you might be able to redirect it. You might be able to calm a situation down, you might be able to help make it more constructive. And again, that just comes from knowing the other person. And especially if you know that this is something that's a hot button for them.

MARY FRANCES BURKE:

It's like kind of stepping in and rescuing. That's the way I see it. And I it's appreciated

TOM BURKE:           

It's teamwork.

MARY FRANCES BURKE:

It is. Teamwork is a very good way to describe it. 

STEVE ROBBINS:   

And I think for us, setting that example early on of open communication helped our children through the school years, especially teenage years, where they could understand what they were feeling and be able to express it in a positive manner, especially in today's world where most of communication is done via texting, iPhone, nonverbal that you can't even see. Being able to express and understand what's going on inside of each of us as an individual, I think is a huge benefit in understanding who we are and being able to get along with others.

TOM BURKE:           

I think there's a part of this thing with listening and sharing of feelings, that there becomes a responsibility that one has in looking at my own part in the situation. And I think that, for example, if I am willing to take responsibility for say something that wasn't well planned or wasn't well executed, backfired. If I could say, "Boy, I would like to do that over again," I think what that does is it lets them know, "Hey we're all able to make mistakes." I think if kids can see that, for example, if we set up a play date and we're kind of excited about it, but it just doesn't go well, we could talk to the kids about that and say, "I should have listened a little bit more, maybe I could have planned this better." When they see us taking responsibility, it allows them to learn that also.

And also, getting back to what Debbie said earlier about this opportunity to ask for forgiveness, I think that really works well with parenting children too. There are times we just have to ask them for forgiveness for having made a mistake. Sometimes we push them when they were tired or we put them into a situation where they felt insecure and we didn't quite understand what they needed for us as an adult to be there for them. And if we can recognize that or if we can't say it to the children, at least if we can say it to our partner, "I think I blew that. I think I push the kids a little too hard," or something to that effect, then they recognize that we're trying to learn, we're trying to grow and that we're willing to take responsibility.

And I know this sounds like we're just beating this drum to death, but ordinarily the way we get to that insight is through our feelings. So if I'm feeling embarrassed, instead of being angry about that, if I can tease that out a little bit and say, "Where's this coming from?" And then I realized, "Well, I made a mistake. That's why I'm embarrassed." Embarrassment's okay, that's a normal feeling. The behavior was something I would like to have a do-over. And being able to admit that, to share that, take responsibility, it's huge as far as helping to shape how things go the next time.

DEBBIE ROBBINS:

I think there's some long term effects of our behaviors. I said earlier, we wanted to have a great home for our children to understand what unconditional love is and forgiveness and healing. And certainly it affected them growing up because when they were...

 Being at Your Best as a Parent.Taking Care of Your Health and Wellbeing Podcast

0:00 MUSIC 

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.

As parents, we want to be at our best for our children. I’ve learned that if I want to be at my best, I need to take care of my own health and wellbeing, and that includes my social and emotional health along with my physical health. 

JENNIFER MILLER:

We need to look at ways to care for ourselves, care for our wellbeing in order to be the parents we want to  be, and I think it starts with really small steps. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Many of us experience changes in our relationship with ourselves when we’re in a parenting role. A child brings about positive changes in identity as we play a necessary role in their lives. But a child can bring about some strains too - less sleep, less time to connect with others, less time for nutrition, exercise and reflection. We might find ourselves feeling stressed, depleted, or even overwhelmed more often and feeling incapable of devoting energy to our own well-being when we are so focused on caring for others. 

JENNIFER MILLER:

I think our kids need to understand that we are human and that we are constantly learning and developing, and that they are part of that learning and development.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I’d like to introduce our guest for today’s podcast. Jennifer Miller, author of the book “Confident Parents, Confident Kids; Raising Emotional Intelligence In Our Kids and Ourselves from Toddlers to Teenagers.”  Jennifer has over 25 years of experience working with adults - whether educators or parents - helping them become more effective with the children they care for by learning to nurture their social and emotional well-being. She will be sharing some valuable insights on ways in which busy parents and caregivers can care for their own well-being in the midst of the many demands they face.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Welcome, thanks for being here.  

JENNIFER MILLER:

Thanks Annmarie, I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, to get started. Most of us know that we should eat healthy food and get exercise to feel better and contribute to our health. But what do you mean when you say contributing to a parent's social and emotional health? What is social and emotional health and what does that look like?

JENNIFER MILLER:

I'm going to start out with emotional health. I think we, uh, have to know our inner expressions, our inner states and, uh, that's no small feat in a culture that tells us what we can feel, what we can't feel, what we can show in public, what we can't show in public. So most of us are not that well in tune with what's going on with our emotions. So, it takes attention, it takes acceptance of what we're feeling, it takes some reflection to ask questions about the what and the way. What are we feeling? Often it's a constellation of a mix of emotions.

Sometimes they're conflicting, sometimes we don't have language that really works for us to pinpoint what we're feeling, which can be really frustrating. And, we see it in our children, we see it in our teens when we ask them what they're feeling and they can't really well communicate what's going on inside. So, it takes that reflection of asking both the what, what are we really feeling here? And then why. What- what triggered it? What circumstances are surrounding it? And an even deeper question is where did it come from?

So emotions are created, are learned over a lifetime, and often our emotions stem from situations that occurred when we were young. And when we have those emotions as a parent, we don't necessarily draw that history or connection to that history, but yet we feel the feelings, which can be very confusing. So, how can we reflect deeply upon where those feelings are coming from originally and, that gives a sense to us of, "Oh, now I understand why I'm so heated, why this is so upsetting to me."

If we just look at the moment in time it may not feel reasonable, but if we look back at our history, we can understand, "Okay, this emotion I felt before, and it's really strong because my boundaries have been crossed in the past." Or whatever connection to that history of emotion would be. So, getting in touch with our emotional health, setting clear emotional boundaries, and I know we'll get into this in our conversation further, Annmarie, but being clear about our emotional boundaries with our children and our family members is really critical.

And then our social health, we can kind of ask the question, "How are we feeling about our relationships?" Are they connecting? Do they feel intimate? Or do we feel like we have a lot of conflict? And conflict is normal, of course, but if we have frequent and often stress and conflict in our relationships, then we have to ask the question, are those relationships healthy, and how are we reflecting on our reactions and our communications with those individuals to make sure that we are setting healthy boundaries and asserting ourselves in ways that are constructing and not aggressive or competitive?

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I just took a bunch of notes. So, there's so many questions that I have just based on what you said and the first thing that I wanna say is like so how do I do that? How do I become better at figuring out where my feelings came from, or looking at my relationships? But I know that's important, but when I look at like the million tasks that are on my to do list, I become really exhausted just keeping up with the day to day with my family needs.

It seems like everyone's going in a different direction. Sometimes I feel like I'm the core of this wheel that is turning, and so I know that I'm supposed to be doing these things, taking better care of myself, but I really struggle doing that and caring for everybody else. So, sometimes I feel guilty, or like I'm really... I'm sending a selfish message to my kids when  I pull away and take time for myself. So, can you, I guess, speak to that a little bit?

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah, of course. I think one easy test is to say in the heat of the moment when we're in the midst of busy life with our families, with a couple deep breaths, can we return to calm? If we can't return to calm, then our resources have been overextended. And we don't have a well of mental emotional resources to draw upon, and our fuse is gonna be short.

In other words any little crisis can set us off, we will not have the patience we need to deal with the mess that children and teens make, with the mistakes that they naturally make. And so we will be fighting more. We will be stressed more. And if we think that our children won't notice, they do notice. Emotions are contagious, and when we are stressed and anxious, they feel it, and if we're not talking about it and we're trying to bury or hide it, then they feel it, but they can't name it and they don't know why, which  can be scary and confusing.

And it also models something that we don't want. As they become teenagers and they're more prone to kind of hide in their rooms and create this private independent life, we still want them to come to us and talk to us about their deepest emotions and their biggest problems. But if we are not vulnerable with them and sharing who we are, they may not feel safe to do that, and they haven't had the modeling to do that.

So, there are many, many reasons, I think, why we need to ask the question: why are we giving our whole selves away? When we give our whole selves away to our children, to our family, to our work responsibilities, we begin to feel victimized, we begin to ruminate on our own needs and almost get panicky, because our needs aren't being met. If we keep suppressing them and pushing them down, we feel more and more of a sense of isolation, of loneliness, of unworthiness and, uh, of being the victim, which means that there's also someone to blame.

And that's a really dangerous pattern to get into, because when we start blaming, we blame our most intimate others, our children, our teens, our partner, and our other intimates, our aging parents, our friends. So, it is a dangerous game to play to let go of our sense of agency, and that's really what we're allowing when we're saying, "Nothing works without me. I can't be away for a minute." It's not sustainable for anyone and, uh, and you're allowing that lava to build in the volcano that is about to explode.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I find myself, or have found myself in that pattern of parenting to exhaustion. So many times. And then... and then recognizing that I am needing something and not, you know, I- I think that takes work to be able to identify what I'm feeling, to put a name to it, and then to figure out where that comes from. It's interesting. I mean I've definitely seen that pattern. So, it kind of comes back to this place of allowing myself to become a better parent by taking care of myself. And I've heard this phrase a lot. It seems very trendy right now of self-care. And it almost seems it- it's a bit buzz worthy. So how do I separate what that really means and what's meaningful there, from that, uh, pop culture or sort of fad language around self-care?

JENNIFER MILLER:

There is a real negative connotation with self-care. You do see it everywhere in social media, we need to invest in self-care. And I think the intent is good that we do need to invest in wellbeing, but self-care I think has the connotation of self-centeredness, or selfishness, and that's something we wanna run far away from, as loving, caring parents who are passionate about raising confident kids.

So, sometimes I think talking about self-care seems like an antithesis to who we are as parents, when we care so much about the role of parenting and we know that our influence is great in our children's lives. Yet, uh, yet it does point us to- to taking care of ourselves and- and wellbeing. And I think, uh, I think the role of parenting, if you are a loving, caring, involved parent, is all consuming by its very nature.

And so we- we need to look at ways to care for ourselves, care for our wellbeing in order to be the parents we wanna be, and I think it starts with really small steps. Because we are all so busy, we don't have time to make a spa appointment, or the financial resources to make a spa appointment. But we can do something every day to take a step back. It can be as simple as remembering with your morning coffee to take some time alone to take some deep breaths, maybe to read a piece of wisdom that will give us some fuel or inspiration or motivation for the day.

There are small little steps that we can take. And if it's daily, then we don't have to wonder, you know, maybe I need to write this is my schedule, every Friday I'm going to get to the gym. But I've got this ritual, I've got this routine, every day at four o'clock I'm gonna take a little time out, I'm gonna walk outside, I'm gonna deeply breathe the fresh air no matter what the temperature or weather, and that's gonna be part of how I take care of my social and emotional wellbeing.

So, it doesn't have to be these big swaths of time or take a lot of resources, and in fact we won't do it if it does, right? What are those little things that you could do every single day that will begin to restore your well of resources so that when problems come up, because they will, you have a little bit of patience built up and you're ready for it.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I think that is one of the things I need to remind myself of. So for me, that's every day I take the dogs for a walk. Some days those walks are a little longer than others (laughing). But one of the things that I have gotten in the habit of doing is during those walks, whether it's toward the end or the beginning, sometimes I phone a friend because I realize that as a busy parent, it's easy to miss out on those social connections.

I've seen my group of friends lose ourselves in our parenting, especially when our kids are young, but even now as my kids are getting older, you know, the little kids takes so much intensive time, but as my daughter is getting older, her schedule and managing her schedule is getting, you know, it gets quite filling on the calendar. So, what advice can you give for balancing identity as an individual with being a good parent?

JENNIFER MILLER:

That's a big question (laughs). I think that you need more than just parenting in order to be a good parent. So, I think we all have to ask the question, what's our deeper purpose for being on this planet? What are we all about? And certainly we know, as loving, caring parents, that parenting is part of that, but, but there is... there is more to our identity than being a parent. And, if we allow ourselves to lose ourselves in that one role, we will compromise our wellbeing.

So asking the question, what do we love? What fills our cup, right? What gives us inspiration and joy? And then not feeling guilty about engaging in those things, realizing that we're modeling for our children and teens engagement in a passion, inspiration and interest that we want for them. We want that for their lives. We don't want to raise workaholics, right? We don't want to raise children who are so consumed with one role in their life that they don't have a full life and they don't have their health and wellbeing, because they become obsessive about one thing in their lives.

And that's in essence what we're modeling when we are consumed by parenting. So, I love your phone a friend example. Your walk, and then phone a friend, finding a little tiny space in our calendar to make social connections for ourselves, if that is, you know, filling for us, is really, really important. There are others who are going through the same kinds of things, and our sense of wellbeing can go up as we engage with others and they understand us, they see us, they value us in a very different way than our kids or even a partner could.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

There are times when things aren't so smooth for me, and so smooth with my parenting. So sometimes I try to hide burdens or emotional turmoil that I'm going through as an individual from my kids. When is it okay to let them know all of these other things that are going on in my life, these social and emotional things? And when is it maybe too much, like I'm putting too much on them? I like the idea that my kids see me as a human, but I know there's a balance there.

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah, I love that, I think there is a balance, but I also know that the only way that we can really be intimate with people is to be vulnerable and show even our challenging feelings. So, I think it is really important to allow your children to understand what you're coping with, however the balance that you talk about, we should never ask our children to carry our burden.

In other words, uh, how can you share your feelings... I'm, you know, I'm really frustrated, I'm wrestling with an issue at work this week, so if you see me feeling more anxious, that's what it's about. I'm really... I'm struggling with a problem at work, and it involves a coworker and I'm really wrestling with it. Just so you know what's going on.

Asking them to carry it would be sitting down and really unburdening all of the details of it and asking them to kind of be a part of the drama that we are engaged in in work. So, there is this emotional boundary that you can set, and sometimes it's hard for people to be clear about where that boundary is. But I think letting your children see that you have challenging emotions is critical.

Being honest about what's going on, because they are, as I said, emotions are contagious, they're feeling it, but they can't really explain it or name it. If you don't articulate what's going on with you, they won't be able to certainly name what's going on with you. So, allowing them into your world is important, but not involving them in the drama of it, is also important.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I think you pointed out something really interesting, and I wrote it down. I mean that is really this difference of being proactive versus reactive. And, you know, the benefit of hosting this podcast is I'm learning so much about myself and my own parenting. But I rarely probably say, "Hey, this is gonna be a big week for me, I've got some things going on," or, you know, "Grandpa's got a- a doctor's appointment that's really weighing heavy on my mind."

I find myself often being really reactive, and that can feel dramatic to them and that is that line. How interesting it is for me to reflect on taking that time in my day to say, yeah, I'm feeling kind of stressed, I can share that with my kids upfront, and just how much healthier that is for all of us. So, that's something that's really cool.

JENNIFER MILLER:

How much does that happen to all of us, that we're reactive, we're less patient, we're snappish, and really the snappishness may not relate to our kids at all. It may relate to what's going on in another part of our lives, but they're not aware and- and their f-... but yet again, they're feeling it.

I really like Annmarie, your idea of being proactive. Just a couple weeks ago, we all, our family, had a big week ahead for very different reasons, and we sat at dinner and said, "Okay, well, this week dad is traveling. He's stressed and getting ready to travel for work and so here's what's happening for him." And we kind of went through each family member.

And what that does is builds the empathy muscle, so that during the week when, you know, when our son is seeing the stress, he makes meaning of it. He knows what's going on, and he can at least say, "Okay, I see dad's really stressed, but I know that's because he's getting ready for a big trip." Um, so I love that idea of being a bit proactive about knowing when it's coming and talking about it so that each family member can be sensitive to one another as your life unfolds.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I like the idea of just creating that as a habit, that proactive sharing of where I'm at. How do I be honest with my kids when I'm not so great at other things, at some other habits like getting enough sleep, or eating well? And share that I'm still sort of growing with them in a way that teaches them to be healthy and have healthy habits as well. Does that make sense?

JENNIFER MILLER:

It really does make sense, and I will say at different parts in  our children and teens lives, they struggle more with those healthy habits like eating well and getting enough sleep at night. And certainly we as adults struggle with it as well. It can be a big source of conflict in a family. Bed time can be a big source of conflict, getting to bed on time,  getting enough sleep.

And then if enough sleep doesn't happen, of course you have less emotional resources the next day, so you're not gonna be as patient, your kids aren't gonna be as patient with any challenges that come their way. So, I think our kids need to understand that we are human and that we are constantly learning and developing, and that they are part of that learning and development.

We learn from...

 Being at Your Best as a Parent.Taking Care of Your Health and Wellbeing Podcast

0:00 MUSIC 

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.

As parents, we want to be at our best for our children. I’ve learned that if I want to be at my best, I need to take care of my own health and wellbeing, and that includes my social and emotional health along with my physical health. 

JENNIFER MILLER:

We need to look at ways to care for ourselves, care for our wellbeing in order to be the parents we want to  be, and I think it starts with really small steps. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Many of us experience changes in our relationship with ourselves when we’re in a parenting role. A child brings about positive changes in identity as we play a necessary role in their lives. But a child can bring about some strains too - less sleep, less time to connect with others, less time for nutrition, exercise and reflection. We might find ourselves feeling stressed, depleted, or even overwhelmed more often and feeling incapable of devoting energy to our own well-being when we are so focused on caring for others. 

JENNIFER MILLER:

I think our kids need to understand that we are human and that we are constantly learning and developing, and that they are part of that learning and development.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I’d like to introduce our guest for today’s podcast. Jennifer Miller, author of the book “Confident Parents, Confident Kids; Raising Emotional Intelligence In Our Kids and Ourselves from Toddlers to Teenagers.”  Jennifer has over 25 years of experience working with adults - whether educators or parents - helping them become more effective with the children they care for by learning to nurture their social and emotional well-being. She will be sharing some valuable insights on ways in which busy parents and caregivers can care for their own well-being in the midst of the many demands they face.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Welcome, thanks for being here.  

JENNIFER MILLER:

Thanks Annmarie, I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, to get started. Most of us know that we should eat healthy food and get exercise to feel better and contribute to our health. But what do you mean when you say contributing to a parent's social and emotional health? What is social and emotional health and what does that look like?

JENNIFER MILLER:

I'm going to start out with emotional health. I think we, uh, have to know our inner expressions, our inner states and, uh, that's no small feat in a culture that tells us what we can feel, what we can't feel, what we can show in public, what we can't show in public. So most of us are not that well in tune with what's going on with our emotions. So, it takes attention, it takes acceptance of what we're feeling, it takes some reflection to ask questions about the what and the way. What are we feeling? Often it's a constellation of a mix of emotions.

Sometimes they're conflicting, sometimes we don't have language that really works for us to pinpoint what we're feeling, which can be really frustrating. And, we see it in our children, we see it in our teens when we ask them what they're feeling and they can't really well communicate what's going on inside. So, it takes that reflection of asking both the what, what are we really feeling here? And then why. What- what triggered it? What circumstances are surrounding it? And an even deeper question is where did it come from?

So emotions are created, are learned over a lifetime, and often our emotions stem from situations that occurred when we were young. And when we have those emotions as a parent, we don't necessarily draw that history or connection to that history, but yet we feel the feelings, which can be very confusing. So, how can we reflect deeply upon where those feelings are coming from originally and, that gives a sense to us of, "Oh, now I understand why I'm so heated, why this is so upsetting to me."

If we just look at the moment in time it may not feel reasonable, but if we look back at our history, we can understand, "Okay, this emotion I felt before, and it's really strong because my boundaries have been crossed in the past." Or whatever connection to that history of emotion would be. So, getting in touch with our emotional health, setting clear emotional boundaries, and I know we'll get into this in our conversation further, Annmarie, but being clear about our emotional boundaries with our children and our family members is really critical.

And then our social health, we can kind of ask the question, "How are we feeling about our relationships?" Are they connecting? Do they feel intimate? Or do we feel like we have a lot of conflict? And conflict is normal, of course, but if we have frequent and often stress and conflict in our relationships, then we have to ask the question, are those relationships healthy, and how are we reflecting on our reactions and our communications with those individuals to make sure that we are setting healthy boundaries and asserting ourselves in ways that are constructing and not aggressive or competitive?

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I just took a bunch of notes. So, there's so many questions that I have just based on what you said and the first thing that I wanna say is like so how do I do that? How do I become better at figuring out where my feelings came from, or looking at my relationships? But I know that's important, but when I look at like the million tasks that are on my to do list, I become really exhausted just keeping up with the day to day with my family needs.

It seems like everyone's going in a different direction. Sometimes I feel like I'm the core of this wheel that is turning, and so I know that I'm supposed to be doing these things, taking better care of myself, but I really struggle doing that and caring for everybody else. So, sometimes I feel guilty, or like I'm really... I'm sending a selfish message to my kids when  I pull away and take time for myself. So, can you, I guess, speak to that a little bit?

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah, of course. I think one easy test is to say in the heat of the moment when we're in the midst of busy life with our families, with a couple deep breaths, can we return to calm? If we can't return to calm, then our resources have been overextended. And we don't have a well of mental emotional resources to draw upon, and our fuse is gonna be short.

In other words any little crisis can set us off, we will not have the patience we need to deal with the mess that children and teens make, with the mistakes that they naturally make. And so we will be fighting more. We will be stressed more. And if we think that our children won't notice, they do notice. Emotions are contagious, and when we are stressed and anxious, they feel it, and if we're not talking about it and we're trying to bury or hide it, then they feel it, but they can't name it and they don't know why, which  can be scary and confusing.

And it also models something that we don't want. As they become teenagers and they're more prone to kind of hide in their rooms and create this private independent life, we still want them to come to us and talk to us about their deepest emotions and their biggest problems. But if we are not vulnerable with them and sharing who we are, they may not feel safe to do that, and they haven't had the modeling to do that.

So, there are many, many reasons, I think, why we need to ask the question: why are we giving our whole selves away? When we give our whole selves away to our children, to our family, to our work responsibilities, we begin to feel victimized, we begin to ruminate on our own needs and almost get panicky, because our needs aren't being met. If we keep suppressing them and pushing them down, we feel more and more of a sense of isolation, of loneliness, of unworthiness and, uh, of being the victim, which means that there's also someone to blame.

And that's a really dangerous pattern to get into, because when we start blaming, we blame our most intimate others, our children, our teens, our partner, and our other intimates, our aging parents, our friends. So, it is a dangerous game to play to let go of our sense of agency, and that's really what we're allowing when we're saying, "Nothing works without me. I can't be away for a minute." It's not sustainable for anyone and, uh, and you're allowing that lava to build in the volcano that is about to explode.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I find myself, or have found myself in that pattern of parenting to exhaustion. So many times. And then... and then recognizing that I am needing something and not, you know, I- I think that takes work to be able to identify what I'm feeling, to put a name to it, and then to figure out where that comes from. It's interesting. I mean I've definitely seen that pattern. So, it kind of comes back to this place of allowing myself to become a better parent by taking care of myself. And I've heard this phrase a lot. It seems very trendy right now of self-care. And it almost seems it- it's a bit buzz worthy. So how do I separate what that really means and what's meaningful there, from that, uh, pop culture or sort of fad language around self-care?

JENNIFER MILLER:

There is a real negative connotation with self-care. You do see it everywhere in social media, we need to invest in self-care. And I think the intent is good that we do need to invest in wellbeing, but self-care I think has the connotation of self-centeredness, or selfishness, and that's something we wanna run far away from, as loving, caring parents who are passionate about raising confident kids.

So, sometimes I think talking about self-care seems like an antithesis to who we are as parents, when we care so much about the role of parenting and we know that our influence is great in our children's lives. Yet, uh, yet it does point us to- to taking care of ourselves and- and wellbeing. And I think, uh, I think the role of parenting, if you are a loving, caring, involved parent, is all consuming by its very nature.

And so we- we need to look at ways to care for ourselves, care for our wellbeing in order to be the parents we wanna be, and I think it starts with really small steps. Because we are all so busy, we don't have time to make a spa appointment, or the financial resources to make a spa appointment. But we can do something every day to take a step back. It can be as simple as remembering with your morning coffee to take some time alone to take some deep breaths, maybe to read a piece of wisdom that will give us some fuel or inspiration or motivation for the day.

There are small little steps that we can take. And if it's daily, then we don't have to wonder, you know, maybe I need to write this is my schedule, every Friday I'm going to get to the gym. But I've got this ritual, I've got this routine, every day at four o'clock I'm gonna take a little time out, I'm gonna walk outside, I'm gonna deeply breathe the fresh air no matter what the temperature or weather, and that's gonna be part of how I take care of my social and emotional wellbeing.

So, it doesn't have to be these big swaths of time or take a lot of resources, and in fact we won't do it if it does, right? What are those little things that you could do every single day that will begin to restore your well of resources so that when problems come up, because they will, you have a little bit of patience built up and you're ready for it.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I think that is one of the things I need to remind myself of. So for me, that's every day I take the dogs for a walk. Some days those walks are a little longer than others (laughing). But one of the things that I have gotten in the habit of doing is during those walks, whether it's toward the end or the beginning, sometimes I phone a friend because I realize that as a busy parent, it's easy to miss out on those social connections.

I've seen my group of friends lose ourselves in our parenting, especially when our kids are young, but even now as my kids are getting older, you know, the little kids takes so much intensive time, but as my daughter is getting older, her schedule and managing her schedule is getting, you know, it gets quite filling on the calendar. So, what advice can you give for balancing identity as an individual with being a good parent?

JENNIFER MILLER:

That's a big question (laughs). I think that you need more than just parenting in order to be a good parent. So, I think we all have to ask the question, what's our deeper purpose for being on this planet? What are we all about? And certainly we know, as loving, caring parents, that parenting is part of that, but, but there is... there is more to our identity than being a parent. And, if we allow ourselves to lose ourselves in that one role, we will compromise our wellbeing.

So asking the question, what do we love? What fills our cup, right? What gives us inspiration and joy? And then not feeling guilty about engaging in those things, realizing that we're modeling for our children and teens engagement in a passion, inspiration and interest that we want for them. We want that for their lives. We don't want to raise workaholics, right? We don't want to raise children who are so consumed with one role in their life that they don't have a full life and they don't have their health and wellbeing, because they become obsessive about one thing in their lives.

And that's in essence what we're modeling when we are consumed by parenting. So, I love your phone a friend example. Your walk, and then phone a friend, finding a little tiny space in our calendar to make social connections for ourselves, if that is, you know, filling for us, is really, really important. There are others who are going through the same kinds of things, and our sense of wellbeing can go up as we engage with others and they understand us, they see us, they value us in a very different way than our kids or even a partner could.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

There are times when things aren't so smooth for me, and so smooth with my parenting. So sometimes I try to hide burdens or emotional turmoil that I'm going through as an individual from my kids. When is it okay to let them know all of these other things that are going on in my life, these social and emotional things? And when is it maybe too much, like I'm putting too much on them? I like the idea that my kids see me as a human, but I know there's a balance there.

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah, I love that, I think there is a balance, but I also know that the only way that we can really be intimate with people is to be vulnerable and show even our challenging feelings. So, I think it is really important to allow your children to understand what you're coping with, however the balance that you talk about, we should never ask our children to carry our burden.

In other words, uh, how can you share your feelings... I'm, you know, I'm really frustrated, I'm wrestling with an issue at work this week, so if you see me feeling more anxious, that's what it's about. I'm really... I'm struggling with a problem at work, and it involves a coworker and I'm really wrestling with it. Just so you know what's going on.

Asking them to carry it would be sitting down and really unburdening all of the details of it and asking them to kind of be a part of the drama that we are engaged in in work. So, there is this emotional boundary that you can set, and sometimes it's hard for people to be clear about where that boundary is. But I think letting your children see that you have challenging emotions is critical.

Being honest about what's going on, because they are, as I said, emotions are contagious, they're feeling it, but they can't really explain it or name it. If you don't articulate what's going on with you, they won't be able to certainly name what's going on with you. So, allowing them into your world is important, but not involving them in the drama of it, is also important.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I think you pointed out something really interesting, and I wrote it down. I mean that is really this difference of being proactive versus reactive. And, you know, the benefit of hosting this podcast is I'm learning so much about myself and my own parenting. But I rarely probably say, "Hey, this is gonna be a big week for me, I've got some things going on," or, you know, "Grandpa's got a- a doctor's appointment that's really weighing heavy on my mind."

I find myself often being really reactive, and that can feel dramatic to them and that is that line. How interesting it is for me to reflect on taking that time in my day to say, yeah, I'm feeling kind of stressed, I can share that with my kids upfront, and just how much healthier that is for all of us. So, that's something that's really cool.

JENNIFER MILLER:

How much does that happen to all of us, that we're reactive, we're less patient, we're snappish, and really the snappishness may not relate to our kids at all. It may relate to what's going on in another part of our lives, but they're not aware and- and their f-... but yet again, they're feeling it.

I really like Annmarie, your idea of being proactive. Just a couple weeks ago, we all, our family, had a big week ahead for very different reasons, and we sat at dinner and said, "Okay, well, this week dad is traveling. He's stressed and getting ready to travel for work and so here's what's happening for him." And we kind of went through each family member.

And what that does is builds the empathy muscle, so that during the week when, you know, when our son is seeing the stress, he makes meaning of it. He knows what's going on, and he can at least say, "Okay, I see dad's really stressed, but I know that's because he's getting ready for a big trip." Um, so I love that idea of being a bit proactive about knowing when it's coming and talking about it so that each family member can be sensitive to one another as your life unfolds.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I like the idea of just creating that as a habit, that proactive sharing of where I'm at. How do I be honest with my kids when I'm not so great at other things, at some other habits like getting enough sleep, or eating well? And share that I'm still sort of growing with them in a way that teaches them to be healthy and have healthy habits as well. Does that make sense?

JENNIFER MILLER:

It really does make sense, and I will say at different parts in  our children and teens lives, they struggle more with those healthy habits like eating well and getting enough sleep at night. And certainly we as adults struggle with it as well. It can be a big source of conflict in a family. Bed time can be a big source of conflict, getting to bed on time,  getting enough sleep.

And then if enough sleep doesn't happen, of course you have less emotional resources the next day, so you're not gonna be as patient, your kids aren't gonna be as patient with any challenges that come their way. So, I think our kids need to understand that we are human and that we are constantly learning and developing, and that they are part of that learning and development.

We learn from...

Having Conversations About Alcohol and Drug Use Podcast

0:00 MUSIC 

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast. In this podcast, we'll be talking about how to have conversations with your child about alcohol and drug use. 

DR. ANJALI NANDI

It's incredibly important that we have ongoing conversations with our kids. As parents, we play one of the most important roles in developing their decision making skills and in helping them translate their values into action.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL

I'd like to introduce today's guest, Dr. Anjali NandiI. 

Dr. Nandi is an organizational consultant in the human service field. She supports criminal justice agencies, hospitals and medical providers and schools find innovative ways of developing their potential through leadership training, program valuations, skill building, staff wellness and implementation of evidence based practices. She designs and delivers training in the fields of behavior change and addictions throughout the country. 

In her clinical work as a bilingual psychotherapist, Dr. Nandi has been the program director of state-licensed out-patient drug and alcohol treatment agencies in Colorado, and for over 20 years has provided individual and group therapies to clients, including adolescents with depression, anxiety, addictions and trauma. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Welcome, Anjali, thanks for being here.

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So having conversations about alcohol, marijuana and other drugs with our children isn't easy. It can be frightening and leave parents feeling overwhelmed and ill equipped. My hope for today is that we can discuss some of the conversations that we should be having with our kids about alcohol and drugs and get specific ideas of what those conversations really sound like. Sometimes we might want one conversation that's as simple as saying, like, "You don't drink or do drugs, do you?" But we know that it really needs to be a lot of conversations. And all of these conversations are seeking to grow skills within our kids. So to begin today, I think, if you want to discuss for a few minutes, the influence that parents and those in a parenting role have in addressing alcohol and drug use with their kids.

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

Yeah, that's so important, because parents plays such an incredibly important role when, uh, growing and maturing their kids. So it's very easy for us as parents to think that we don't matter, that it's really only social media and friends and school, and whatever exposure our kids are getting from the outside world, that that's really where they're learning. And yes, that is true, they are learning from all of these different places, but as parents, we play one of the most important roles in developing their moral compass, in developing their decision making skills, and in helping them translate their values into action. 

So it's incredibly important that we have ongoing conversations with our kids, even though sometimes these conversations are incredibly clumsy. I know from personal experience, my conversations are always clumsy with my kiddo, who's a teenager. Uh, and yet, having frequent and ongoing short conversations, with our kids have such an incredible impact on, uh, the decisions that they make, in terms of, uh, drug use in particular, since that's what we're talking about.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I think that it's interesting to think about, you know, coming at it with a bit of a plan, because my conversations too, have been rather clumsy, but I think to have a plan and look for those, for those opportunities, is key. And I think to realize as well, that it's not some other family's issue, like we, it's not about good kids or, or bad kids. It really is conversations for every kind of parent and every kind of child. Is that right?

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

Oh, yes, absolutely. And ideally, these conversations are happening, uh, way before they actually need to happen. Meaning, ideally, these conversations are happening, uh, whenever there's a teachable moment. Something shows up on television that's, that sparks this conversation, let's talk with our kids about it. There's something in the media related to, let's say there's a, a DUI incident locally, that makes the news. Let's talk about that. Let's talk, let's use any examples that are just presenting themselves, sort of these teachable moments, let's use those to start these conversations. Because it's, I know this is all so hard to believe, I think as parents, but we have such an influence on our kids because deep down even though our kids will probably not admit this, they don't want to disappoint us. 

I mean, occasionally my daughter will even say, you know, "Mom, are you disappointed?" And I'll, I'll say, you know, something like, "Well, you know, I feel really mad about this." And she said to me, and this has happened multiple times, "It's okay if you're mad, I just don't want you to be disappointed with me." So there's something-

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That's true.

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

... Right? There's something that's really important that we can capitalize about this. But going back to what you said, it is helpful to have some sort of a plan. And by that, I mean, just stems for the conversation, meaning little entry ways into the conversation. So using sort of practiced ways of starting the conversation, and things that we can say to ourselves while the conversation is happening, because these conversations are not easy, and they're triggering for both of us, right? They're triggering for us as parents sometimes, and they're definitely triggering for our kids. So it's really helpful to have a little bit of a plan and to, sort of fundamentally understand, why is it hard, so I can not make it even harder?

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Is there an age when you should start talking? Like, is there an age that's too early, um, for us to really have these conversations with our kids?

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

Yeah, I don't think there is an age that's too early. Because whenever kids are getting exposed to this information is when it's, it's time to be talking about it. So if there's somebody who's smoking in the household, for example, then we have that conversation pretty early on. If, there's alcohol in the house, and parties that are happening, it's helpful to have conversations with our kids, particularly when they're asking or they're interested, or before we're having a celebration, it's helpful for both parents to, kind of have a conversation, if there are two parents, to have a conversation about what the expectations are, so that we as parents or guardians are on the same page. 

So it's really helpful to have these conversations, no matter what the age, it's just the kind of conversation changes, depending on the age of the kid. So, you know, if, the child is between, let's say, eight and 12, it sounds like a different conversation, versus having a conversation with a teenager versus having a conversation with, you know, a child who's about to drive. So my, my kiddo is almost 16, and she's about to start driving. And our conversations are now a little bit more different, even though we've been having these conversations for years now.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I want to spend today focusing on those conversations, because I think that's the biggest obstacle to get, to really get comfortable with as a parent. But I also want to talk a little bit about the risks. So does the age a person start using alcohol or drugs matter? Like we often say, not until you're 21? But can you speak to that a little bit?

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

Absolutely. So I totally geek out on this information. So I apologize in advance if I tell you too much. So the age at which we start using absolutely matters, whether it's drinking or, or using drugs. So, in order to understand why, we have to understand the brain a little bit. And if I oversimplify the brain, our brain is essentially divided into two parts. Uh, we have the, the lizard brain, which technically limbic system, uh, the lizard brain, sort of like our, our gas pedal, this is our impulse, like the center for impulses, risk taking, high emotion, fight, flight, safety, all of that stuff, kind of the reactive part of our brains. We call it the lizard brain.

And then we have the thinking part of our brain, the part of our brain in charge of executive functioning, of decision making, of thinking through the consequences, right, of slowing down. And so that part we call, the wizard, so we have the lizard and the wizard. And interestingly enough, they mature at different times. And by mature, I don't mean that they don't exist before that they absolutely do, it's just their connections are maturing and, and sort of wiring together at different rates. So we tend to wire up our lizard brain, much younger than we wire up our wizard brain. 

So our lizard brain is sort of really wired and intact and ready to go, mature around the age of 15. Which means we have a fully functioning gas pedal at the age of 15. But it takes a little longer for our frontal cortex, our wizard brain to fully mature. And our wizard brain fully matures around the age of about 24 to 26.

So we have this period where our brain is maturing at different rates, which means we're prioritizing the maturation of the impulse center of our brain, the gas pedal over them, cognitive sort of slow down, think this through, think through the consequences part of our brain.

So, if we introduce an addition- a substance, right, we introduce alcohol or we introduce drugs, it impacts the development of that brain, such that we prioritize the development of the limbic system, the lizard brain, over the frontal cortex. 

So even without drugs and alcohol, our teenagers really have a battle ahead of them, they have a fully functioning gas pedal, but not a fully functioning brake pedal. I don't mean that they're less intelligent in any way, I just mean that their ability to harness the power of problem solving, of thinking through pros and cons, you know, if I do this, what will happen, et cetera, the ability to do that is really, uh, it, it takes several seconds for them to get there, several seconds longer than it takes an adult to get there.

And so, they are more prone to making riskier choices as it is. And then we start to introduce these other substances, which even further impacts the development of the brain, and we end up with sort of this, um, impaired connection between the lizard and the wizard, and, uh, a lesser developed wizard and a more highly developed lizard.

So, um, I know that's sort of a little bit of an oversimplification, but it really matters when you start to introduce substances. So in an ideal world, if somebody were to start using, I would say, let's delay it until 24 or 25, right, so that the frontal cortex has the best shot. 

Now I'm not saying that the brain doesn't develop all our lives. I mean, we have a very malleable brain, there's this term called neuroplasticity or malleability of the brain, which really means that we can sort of develop and grow up, continue to grow our brains and work on them all the way until we die. But this time period is really essential. And so in order to keep our, our kids safe, in order to keep our teens safe, we really try and delay the onset of the use of alcohol or other drugs to keep their brains as healthy and supported as possible.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I love the analogy of a car with a good accelerator and a weak brake. I think that makes a lot of sense to mewhen I'm thinking about the, the structure of their brains, and answers a lot of questions that I have just generally in parenting, about impulse control. So when we're having like, conversations with our kids, it's, it really can happen just about any time and anywhere. They don't have to be long and serious. I, I remember my parents having, you know, a bit of a talk. 

I think the talk I had with me was, you know, "You're not using, are you?" And I was like, "No, I'm not." And they were like, "Okay, good." Um, and so I, I think that when a parent gets started, just what are some things that they need to keep in mind, um, as you start having conversations? Like for me, one of the things I remember is, I need to stop asking questions that have a yes or no answer. Are there any other just tips before we, we even get started?

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

Great. Yes. And great learning, Annmarie, right, to, to really avoid those yes, no questions. Because it's a bit of a setup to ask our kids, "You're not using, are you?" Because it's super tough for the kids to say, "Actually, yes, I am." If I phrase it that way. So I need to, to get away from that. And the reason as a parent, I would ask it that way, is because I really want to hear the no answer, right? "Are you, you're not using, are you?" "No." "Phew, my job here is done." Right? That's, as a parent, sometimes that's how I wish the conversation would go. But that's not how it goes. And just to kind of reiterate this point, ideally, these conversations happen regularly on an ongoing basis so they, they don't feel like “the talk”, right?  It doesn't feel like, oh my gosh. Like sometimes I'll say, uh, to my daughter, can we chat about something? And immediately she'll say, "Oh, my gosh, am I in trouble?" That's her first response, right?

Whereas, if I slide it in, right, just as a matter of course, she tells me all kinds of things. And we have some pretty heavy duty conversations if I'm just q- you know, sneakily sliding it into whatever is going on in the moment. I have to admit a lot of these conversations are in the car because I have, you know, she's captive there with me. We're not staring at each other, we're kind of looking forward. So even if she has an embarrassed face on or she's rolling her eyes or whatever she's doing, right, we, we're not sort of confronting or right in front of each other, which is really helpful, and we have no place to go. I mean, we're both buckled in, here we go.

So, a lot of these conversations for me happen in the car, uh, however, ideally, they happen on an ongoing basis. And ideally, they're precipitated by something happening in our natural world, right? There's some teachable moment that picks up, or, if you do want to have sort of a serious sit down planned conversation with your child, there are several ways to kind of start that conversation.

And ideally, particularly if they're between the ages of eight and 12, ideally, it starts with some open questions just to find out what they know. So the question might sound like, you know, "There's so much information out there about alcohol and drugs, and you probably know so much more than I do, because you're probably getting so much stuff from school. Tell me what you do know about alcohol and drugs." Or let's say you're just worried about drugs. "Tell me what you do know about drug use." And just start there. Ask the question and wait.

Just be quiet and listen. And don't take their first answer as the answer. So you could follow up with, and what else is there? Or, right, tell me more, or any of those kinds of questions that just gather more info. Because particularly our teens, maybe not so much the eight to 12. But, when they get into their teenage years, their answers tend to be something like, "Well, not much. I don't know. I don't know what you're asking. That's too broad of a question." Right? Those sometimes can be the answers. 

So we have to play a little bit with the style of questioning, and you all know your kids best. So the caution I would say is, avoid closed questions, meaning, yes, no questions, and really go for the open question. Be comfortable with the silence and the discomfort and work hard to keep yourself, you as the parent, me as the parent, work hard to keep myself in check. So that I'm not having a reaction. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Let's talk about establishing rules, because that seems to be an important conversation for parents to have. So do parents create alcohol and drug use rules? Or do they get their child's input? So you know, what are, what are important things that parents need to remember here?

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

Yeah, both. So, uh, our kids absolutely need clarity around structure and boundaries. Being clear about boundaries and structure helps reduce anxiety, it helps the kid know what they can push up against, that there is something to push up against. And it helps them know what the lines are, which is really helpful. Now it is our child's job to push up against those boundaries. So please don't think that when you set a boundary, your kid is just going to obey. In fact, if they just obey, be worried, something else is going on. 

So, they are going to push up against the boundaries. And our job when they push up against it is to be consistent and say, "I hear you, and this is still the boundary." Right? 

Now, if you recognize that your boundary was a bit much, like my daughter went out for one of her first parties, I set an 11:00pm curfew, all right. 11:00pm. And she said, "Mom, there's no way, right? I need to, I have to get a ride back, et cetera. You're not picking me up." Because they were all organizing rides. And she said, "How can I tell people that I need to be home at 11:00pm when they're giving me the ride and their curfew was 1:00am?" And I said "Well then in that case, I'm coming to pick you up, right? This is the boundary." And so she said, "Okay." And I went and picked her up and you know, brought her back, and then in retrospect realized that it would probably have been a good negotiation point for me to have given her a little bit more time. 

So if that is the case, right, when we set boundaries, have that conversation out loud with your child about why you are changing the boundary. Don't just change it and not talk to them, because then they will think that your boundaries don't matter. So if you set a boundary A, and they push up against it, and you recognize that it should be B, don't just, you know, scoot to B, without saying anything. Make sure they understand what are the values that are driving that. 

So back to your original question, Annmarie, it's both. We do set negotiables and non-negotiables, right? We're clear about what the non-negotiable is, they get input in terms of the negotiables. So an example is, do not get in the car, if the driver is intoxicated or high, right? That is a non-negotiable. The negotiable is, you know, calling me, calling your dad, calling an Uber, right? We can discuss that, we can discuss what that looks like, it's even negotiable that you don't tell me who the friend is who's intoxicated, or, or high, maybe, right? So we can negotiate around those things, but we are clear about what the non-negotiables are. So as parents, we need to be clear about that. And then, you know, help ... Get, get the kid's input into what we can negotiate about.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So you mentioned curfew, which would be negotiable, and the not riding in a car, what are some other examples of rules that parents could have? Reasonable rules that parents could have.

DR. ANJALI NANDI:

So these are so dependent on the family and...

Communications Podcast

0:00 MUSIC 

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.

In this podcast we'll be learning about intentional communication. I'd like to introduce our guest for today's podcast, Dr. Kari Finley. Dr. Finley is a licensed clinical social worker who has over a decade of experience working with individuals and families in rural communities. Now, Dr. Finley's a research scholar at Montana State University where her primary research interests are on understanding and creating behavior change, preventing the misuse of substances, and child wellbeing. Kari's a contributing author to many of the tools and resources found on the website. She's also the mom of an eight year old.

So welcome, Kari. Thanks for being here today.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Hi, thank you. Thanks for having me.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

All right. So we're gonna get started today by having you explain a little bit about what is meant by intentional communication.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Intentional communication is really talking, listening and spending time to really understand your child's point of view.Intentional communication really is about intentionality where you come into the conversation in a different way. You're really trying to engage with your child and understand your child's point of view. As parents, we are working all the time to build our children's skills. And intentional communication is a way that we can build their social/emotional skills and, at the same time, build the relationship that we have with them.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So there's a difference, it sounds like, between talking with your child and not at your child. I know, um, that can be a bit different. I- I think I, I strive for talking with my child. But sometimes it comes out like I am- I'm talking at my child.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

I think with intentional communication you're really creating opportunities where you and your child can listen to each other and understand what the other person or what your child is feeling, as well as what they want and what they need. I think it's also about modeling. It's modeling a way of communicating that really focuses on the relationship you have with them.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

There are times, I think, that a parent needs to just talk, I guess, at their child, be more direct and, you know, not engage in a conversation. So you are- you are not saying that this is, like, a way of talking all the time, right? There's times where you still need to be super direct with your kids.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

So yes. Absolutely. If their hand is gonna touch a hot stove or you need to stop them from crossing a street without looking, for the most part, intentional communication really focuses on your relationship. But in these instances where they're gonna touch the hot stove or, or cross the street, your focus really is on their safety.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I feel like I'm in that groove of, of being really intentional in my communication, but for example, this morning, um, when I think I tripped on my daughter's shoes for, like, the 10th time this week, I was frustrated. So are you- I want to be direct in that case. But you are saying that this is a time for being more intentional in the way that I talk with her.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

You know, I wouldn't want to engage when you're frustrated and you've just tripped over her shoes. Um, you might need some time first. And then to come back when you both would feel calm and ready to talk. But using intentional communication to have a conversation about her shoes is a great example.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

All right. So help me understand why. Um, because I think, you know, parenting can be difficult. Um, and we have a lot to think about as parents. And so why would a parent want to talk this way with their kids? Or, um, invest their time into figuring out this way of communicating with their kids?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Yeah. In addition, I think, to growing and building social and emotional skills, and growing your relationship, intentional communication really fosters a sense of ownership in that communication because it allows your child to be active in the conversation with you. So when your child has a sense of ownership and is active in that in conversation, they're much lik- less likely to feel defensive. This really, I also think, sets up the stage for more challenging issues that are gonna come your way in the future.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So doesn't inviting my daughter into a conversation about her shoes diminish my authority as a parent? There's times I just want her to put her shoes away.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

No. I, you know, I don't think intentional communication undermines your authority as a parent. Instead, I really think it engages your daughter and engaging with her about that issue really does build her skills. It allows her to really think through the issue with you. And I think, as a parent, it helps you to convey, like, what you need as the parent.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

How do you get started in this? I want like concrete examples, what I would do first, when trying to be intentional.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

I think the first piece when you think about intentional communication, you first wanna start by connecting. The relationship that you're building with your child is so important. And you always wanna start by focusing on the relationship before you do anything with the content.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Yeah. So what does that- what does that sound like or what does that look like to, to do that?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

I think when you start by connecting, it could look like a hug. Or it could look like saying something like, "You seem stressed. Is that right?" Or, "Are you feeling overwhelmed?"

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That makes sense.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

And then I think after you do that, you'd want to describe the purpose of the conversation. Like tell your child what you really want to talk about so that they know. For younger kids it could be something like, "I'd like to talk about sharing your toys with your sister." Or, um, for an older child, it might look like, "I, you know, I'd like to talk with you about your plans for the weekend." You don't want your child to guess what this conversation is gonna be about. So you wanna really tell them directly.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I, I feel like I do that okay. But sometimes I find myself, and I don't mean to, but I try to like start a conversation just a few minutes before I'm dropping her off at school or in that- those couple of minutes right before she's heading to bed. Our, our days are just so busy. Her days are so busy. It's really difficult to find a good or quiet time to have a conversation.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Yeah. Car rides can be a great time to talk. I've used that strategy myself. But not right before you drop her off at school. (laughs) You also wanna make sure that there is enough time for the conversation. So you might give your- your child a heads up that you wanna find a time to talk with them. Like, you know, "Hey, do you have a few minutes to talk after dinner?" Or, "Let's spend some time, um, after practice to talk about your homework." So letting them know and setting that up, but really making sure there is enough time, um, to have the conversation that you wanna have.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I've done that before where I've, um ... But it always feels really daunting. Like, you know, we're gonna- do you have a few minutes to talk with me? And so I think that that's different to say, like, hey, do you have a few minutes that we could catch up and talk about homework, is a little bit different by, I think, conveying that purpose. And I think it helps give my daughter ownership over the conversation as well. If, like I'm respecting her and bringing her into that space of saying I don't need to talk right now as you're getting ready to think about your day and heading off to school. But we'll find some time to do it. Is that- is that sort of what you're saying?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would give her some ownership over the conversation. And finally, I think you, you really wanna also pay attention to your state of mind. Um, and your child's state of mind. So your own emotions and your state of mind as a parent are gonna absolutely influence the way that you listen and talk. And then your child's frame of mind, the same thing. That also matters. So, for example, you know, after a bad game or after flunking a test or something, um, it's not the time to, to talk about practicing or studying more.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Or talking about her routine getting out the door in the morning, it's probably not the best to talk about, you know, five minutes before I'm, I'm dropping her off- I'm dropping her off at school. So, I mean, that makes sense. 

So I'm taking notes as you're talking, Kari. And, you know, as a parent what I think I'm hearing you say is when I create the conditions, I wanna connect with them first. Describe the purpose of the conversation and make sure there's enough time available. And really be mindful of my state of mind and, and my kids' state of mind. What's next?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

So after you've created those conditions then you want to actively listen. So active listen involves using a lot of different open ended questions that invite your child to tell their story in their own words.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So what are those- what do open ended questions sound like?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Well, you just asked me one. Uh, so it's really any question that can't- that can't- that can- can't be answered with yes or no.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That makes sense.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

So for example, while listening to a story of your daughter's, you could reflect on what she's saying and then rephrase that. So it might sound like something like, "Can you describe what happened between you and your brother today when you were doing the dishes?" Or it could a- you could ask a question like, "How does this make you feel?" Or, you know, "Help me understand what happened."

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Okay.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

And then after she shares her story, you could follow up by reflecting on what you heard her say. So you could say something like, you know, "It sounds like you were wanting to dry the dishes but your brother also wanted to. And you weren't up for letting him have a say so you felt angry when he left. Is that right?" Really by reflecting and rephrasing her story, you are helpful to invite more conversation. Also helping her to build her emotional vocabulary.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I like the way this feels and I, I do try to reflect. I have, um, a 13 year old and so oftentimes I assume that she's- is acting in a way or doing something that is different. So by sort of reflecting and rephrasing, um, exactly what I'm hearing her say that I- it helps me not to jump to any conclusions. Are there any tips that you can give parents on active listening? Like, or any traps that we can avoid?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

You know, I think one of the important elements of active listening is body language. And so, you know, as a parent, you don't want to look distracted or look like you're talking, you know, looking at your phone. Or appear to be in a hurry to hear her story. Your child is gonna pick up on that, uh, in your body language really quickly. And that can make a big difference on the conversation.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Well I'll just say, that's why I kinda like talking when you're driving in a car too. Because I am sitting next to her and I'm, you know, I'm focused out the windshield. 'Cause I think if I were to have those, you know, conversations sitting on the couch together, I think at times my body language would show my frustration. Where, when I'm driving, sometimes that's a nice time to look out the window and being able to talk about big things without really making her defensive.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Yeah. Absolutely.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So what are some other things?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

You know, you may hear something you don't like (laughing). When you're inviting someone to tell their story and really actively listening, you might hear something as a parent that you don't- you don't really like. And in those sin- instances, it's important that you avoid interrupting or judging or giving advice like we want to as parents. Interrupting or, you know, giving advice when you've listened, when you're in that state of listening, can be a trap, absolutely, that we can easily fall into. And it can prevent your child from fully engaging with you and, and wanting to share more of those details of- about the story.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I think this is- this can be really difficult and probably my pitfall, I mean, I have a teenager. So I often- I don't know if I often hear things I don't wanna hear, but I'm always prepared to hear things that I don't wanna hear. And so I find myself jumping right in. Um, it really does take me being intentional and thinking about, you know, staying calm and not interrupting. And then when I'm ready to talk, um, really trying to focus on doing that in intentional ways. So how do I- how do I do that in an intentional way?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

You know, active listening, I think, is just one part of intentional communication. But you're right. It's a two way dialogue. And so it is about listening. But it's also about talking. And so I think I messages can really help you to talk with your child in a way that they can hear.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So give me an example of what that looks like.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

So an I message really- the goal of an I message is to convey the impact of your child's actions without blame. So notice the difference between these two statements. I could say something like, "You are being so rude by slamming the door like that." Or a statement like, "I feel really upset when you slam the door." 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So the second statement, I feel upset when you slam the door, avoids making any guesses about, about the intention behind their behavior. That would really, I think, save my relationship with my daughter quite a few times, I- I can already tell.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Yeah. (laughs) I know I don't like it when people accuse me of something. And my first reaction is to become defensive. And, and children are no different. So just setting it up in a way that, that takes ownership, the I portion, really shows the impact on you. And then the you portion is about the behavior that you noticed.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I like the idea of being able to show my impact. I, I think that it's important that our kids see us as people. And, you know, someone that gets frustrated or I get my feelings hurt. So being able to show the impact of my child's behavior on me, that- I think that makes sense.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Yeah. I, I messages usually have three parts. So it's my feeling, your behavior, and the impact. So if we go back to the example of your daughter's shoes on the floor, you could respond by saying, you know, "You are being so inconsiderate, you know, by leaving your shoes everywhere. It's just unacceptable." But unfortunately, tha- a statement like that really is gonna shut down the conversation. And it mostly likely is gonna escalate that anger that your child already feels. So using an I message instead, you could say something like, "I feel frustrated when I come home and your things aren't put away." And just taking ownership like I feel frustrated, this allows your child to hear your feelings and it doesn't assign blame.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Yeah. Or I, I feel exhausted when I notice your shoes in the floor. And I have to put them away. Um, my daughter's 13 though. And so I would imagine that by modeling I messages, she's going to be able to respond to me with an I message of her own. Like I can hear her saying, "I feel like you're not listening to me and how busy I am. And that's, you know, why my shoes can't get put away." But I, I can see there's value in each of us being able to be heard. And, you know, being really conscientious about an I message would help, would help build our relationship. DR. KARI FINLEY:

Yeah. I messages really do, I think, invite your child into a conversation with you where both of you can leave with a better understanding of each other and how you're feeling. And, hopefully, a solution for how to change things in the future.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That make sense.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Yeah. And then the final part of intentional communication really is about apologizing when you need to. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That, that can be hard for a parent to do.

DR. KARI FINLEY:

But I think it's so important. Apologizing or admitting when you're wrong is really modeling and demonstrating vulnerability. It's demonstrating a willingness to grow. And it normalizes mistakes. It helps your child understand that, you know, mistakes are part of learning and getting better.

Having to apologize is not a failure. Um, instead it really does strengthen the relationship that you have with your child and it provides an opportunity for reflection.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I like the opportunity of em- emphasizing apologizing because I think, again, it's important for our kids to see us as people. And that, you know, you said apologizing isn't a failure. I- I think that parents feel like they're failing a lot when it comes to raising their kids. We- there's a lot that influence us as parents right now. Um, I, I also don't think that we always know how to give a good apology. So what advice do you give on, like, how, how to apologize to your kids?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

You know, the most important thing in apologizing is to be genuine. And be specific about what you're apologizing for. You know, just a couple of tips. I would make sure to avoid adding words like if or but after your apology. So, for example, I wouldn't say, you know, "I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings." Or, "I'm sorry for hurting your feelings but when you continue not to listen to me, I feel upset." So just avoiding those, like, if or but, uh, words in an apology is important. Both of these apologies with if or but put the blame on the child. Keep the apology specific and short and then give your child some time to respond to you.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I really appreciate, like, these concrete steps, um, about intentional communication and there is a lot to it. But what advice would you give to the parents listening right now that feel a bit intimidated about where to start?

DR. KARI FINLEY:

Start slow. Choose one topic to practice. Uh, maybe you wanna build your child's confidence or grow their reading skills. I think it's best not to start with an issue that you've already been facing. Um, you- from the website, print out intentional communication from the I wanna know more section of the website and use it as a guide, put it on your fridge, um, have it available to you when you're practicing. 

I also think that printing out the feelings chart can be helpful for your child of any age. Learning how to understand and name our feelings is a skill that we can always continue to...

Social and Emotional Development Podcast

0:00 MUSIC 

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.

In this podcast, we'll be learning from an expert in the field about social and emotional development, what it means, its importance and some examples of how to grow these skills for your child's success. 

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

We don't stop developing socially and emotionally, it starts when you're born, and it keeps going, because social and emotional development is really about how do we get along in life? How do we interact with other people? How do we organize ourselves to get things done?

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL

I'd like to introduce our guest for today's podcast, Dr. Maurice Elias is one of the pioneers of social and emotional development. He's a professor in the psychology department at Rutgers University, Director of the Rutgers Social-Emotional and Character Development Lab, and Co-director of the Academy for SEL in Schools. He's also a pioneer and founding member of the leadership team for CASEL, the Collaborative for Academic, Social and Emotional Learning. He's written Emotionally Intelligent Parenting, Talking Treasure: Stories to Help Build Emotional Intelligence and Resilience in Young Children, The Joys & Oys of Parenting and Nurturing Students' Character: Everyday Teaching Activities for Social-Emotional Learning. He blogs on social and emotional development at edutopia.org, and he lectures nationally and internationally. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Well, let's start today by having you explain a little bit more of what is meant by social and emotional development.

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

I should preface this by saying, I have a new granddaughter who is three months plus old, so this gives me a perspective on seeing how everything develops. You see her physical development, you see her social development and how she engages with her parents and with other people. You see her, you see her emotional development, how she is able to control herself, and, and so when you have the privilege of watching, uh, a newborn, especially as a grandparent, um, you just see everything develops, and of course that includes your social and emotional person.

Um, and, and of... and we don't stop developing socially and emotionally, i- it starts when you're born, and we... it keeps going, because social and emotional development is really about how do we get along in life? How do we interact with other people? How do we organize ourselves to get things done? Um, all of that depends on, on aspects of our social and emotional development, and so, uh, so these are, uh, skills that everybody, uh, starts with and... that we want to develop over time, so that people can handle situations, manage well, um, you know, live a productive and constructive life and deal with other people and know how to do that. So that's kind of, uh, you know, that's kind of what social and emotional development is about, it's, it's critically important to everybody.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

What do you think some things, um, that parents might misunderstand about social and emotional development?

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Well, you know, I think sometimes, uh, people think in terms of character, and they think that certain things are inborn, that, you know, "My kid's a certain kind of kid," and, then that's just the way they are, but in reality, uh, we have... we, we come, we come out with like these different factory presets. You know, some kids are indeed calmer than others, and some kids are indeed more active than others, but all of these things can be modified over time by the way we treat kids and the way they interact with the world. So I think one, um, misconception that parents have, is the extent to which social and emotional development is about skills that you can learn.

So, for example, you can learn how to calm yourself down when you're upset, and another important skill that kids actually learn is empathy, uh, it is not something that, you know, whether you're empathic or not is inborn, uh, it's something that over time, uh, we help kids learn, in part by our modeling, our own modeling as parents, and also by how we encourage kids to respond when they see other people in distress. And here's another important skill, and that is the ability to recognize how others are feeling. Now I've talked to parents who said, "You know, sometimes my kids will come over to me when I'm very upset, and they'll ask me for something and I'll say to them, "Don't you see the look on my face? Don't you see my neck vein bulging out of my, my side here?"" And the answer to the question is, no, they don't see that because they haven't been taught to look at it.

And so, yes, indeed, if we are taught to look at other people's faces, look at their body language and expression, we can infer a lot about them, but if we are not taught to do that and not encouraged to do that, well, then we don't do it, and so then people... we end up thinking that people feel the way we want them to feel, well, that's not, that's not a good idea for good long-term relationships, you gotta know how people are feeling by being observant, and, and this is a skill that develops over to time. So, so, you know, no matter where we look in social and emotional development, um, there are things that, uh, teachers and other educators and coaches and parents do that influence the, the track that their kids are on.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Well, I think for me as a parent, that... realizing that it is a s... that you're talking about skills that can be developed, it gives me an opportunity to rest into the fact that I have control over the outcome (laughs) of, of my, my child's success, and I really can access tools to grow their skills and, and grow their successes, so-

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Right.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

... I think for me, understanding that part of social and emotional development, made me take a deep breath in my parenting, because I... it's a process, and it's a, it's a process learned over a lifetime, um-

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Right.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

... rather than, rather than an aspect of them that- that's born.

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Yeah, you know, you know, here's something very interesting that, uh... and, and I'm, I'm speaking now as a licensed clinical psychologist. So, so when kids seem to be having a very difficult time, they end up being brought to a therapist and, and what happens in therapy? Well, the therapist in, in essence re... helps the kid relearn and learn new skills, and so, so it's so funny that when kids have difficulty, we desperately hope that they can learn new skills, but yet until they have difficulty, sometimes we don't think that we have to teach them those skills, and, you know, for me, it's all about prevention.

I actually stopped seeing kids clinically because I was much more interested in spending time strengthening kids so that they wouldn't need to see clinicians, and turns out that, uh, that the things that you do when a child is in therapy are really the same things that you can do when they're, when they're younger to teach those skills, um, but yet it, it seems more, uh, I don't know, sort of acceptable, or... I'm not sure what the right word is, it's just something that we, we do when the kids have difficulty, um, but we are a little more reluctant to do when they don't have difficulty.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So let's go back and talk a little bit about what brought you here, so when did you realize social and emotional development was gaining traction for you, or when did you realize that this is where you wanted to spend a, a career?

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Well, you know, it actually occurred as part of my own clinical training. Um, I was an intern in a child and family treatment center in Hartford, Connecticut, which is an urban setting, and, uh, and you know, when you're an intern, very often, you're invisible. You- you'll sit in a room and the staff members will talk as if you're not there, and this happened to me all the time. And I was listening to staff members coming back after their sessions with families, and they were saying, "If only the parents had done this, if only the school had done that, if only this, if only that," and I'm listening and I'm saying, "Well, why couldn't these things happen? Why are we saying if only."

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Uh, and so I began to think about how... if we move upstream, so to speak, and see why the problems are getting downstream, and, and, and look at the causes, that we can have an impact, and so I found myself gravitating more toward prevention than treatment, and, and that's kind of what got me started. And then, um, I had the good fortune to work with, uh, two individuals, George Spivack and Myrna Shure-

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

... uh, to whom I'm so indebted uh, as a professional, um, who, who began to understand that when kids were getting into psychological difficulty like depression, like anxiety, like oppositional defiant disorder behavior, that, that the reason for that was, that they were not applying social and emotional skills. And so, uh, they began and encouraged me to begin to work early in life with kids and, and begin to follow a progression of how are we gonna help kids learn these skills early in life and keep teaching it to them as they become middle schooler, adolescents, college students, parents, etc, etc.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So along the way, have you had any big surprises that you've learned in the study of social and emotional development?

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Well, I think what we've, uh... what was surprising to me, was the extent to which these, uh, these competencies can be learned. Uh, I, I, I, I admit that my, my initial reaction, and maybe it was just because of my training and, and, and... I don't know, just, maybe we're all just brought up thinking in terms of people's traits, and traits always seem very hard to change, and, you know, and, and how many of us have grown up with people, maybe our parents or grandparents and say, "Oh, they... this is the way they are, this is the way they're always gonna be." So, you know, it all gets into all of us, I think, but I began to see, by starting to work with our young kids, how receptive, uh, they are to learning all kinds of things, including how to treat each other, uh, well and nicely.

Um, so much of what happens with our kids depends on our expectations for them. If we expect our kids to treat... siblings, for example, if we expect our siblings to treat each other kindly with compassion and, and we are absolutely clear that, that sibling fighting, physical fighting is just not acceptable, um, vast majority of the time you find kids that... siblings that will start to treat each other well, and they don't beat each other up.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Right.

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Um, now again, because sometimes when people are brought up in certain circumstances, like maybe you're brought up fighting with your sibling, you, you figure, well, it's just an inevitability, um, but it's not an inevitability, and, uh, and, and if we set about to teach our kids, uh, certain, uh, competencies in, in the way they get along with each other, we can be successful a lot of the time. So I was surprised about that, um, uh, pleasantly so, and then that, you know, then that morphed into my work in schools, where, uh, where it began to be clear that the way we set up the school environment and what we expect from kids becomes very important in how they engage with each other, and, you know, I s... the more time I spent in schools, the more I realized that what happens in a school, academically, depends on what the kids are doing socially and emotionally.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

The idea that kids are gonna walk into a school building, 180 school days, and as soon as the bell rings, they're ready to learn, it's not very realistic.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

(laughs)

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Some of the kids are coming from dan- dangerous neighborhoods, some of the kids are coming from difficult home situations, kids are now are coming from homes that are directly or indirectly affected by COVID-19 pandemic, so to think that they're automatically ready to start learning just as soon as the bell rings, that- that's not a good assumption. So if we help our kids, um, just kind of get their emotions set before the start of the school day or before we really delve into instruction, we're gonna find that they become much more receptive, and in fact, learn more, they forget less, which means we can make more progress, academically, with the kids, um, but the only way to do that is by being attentive to where they're at socially and emotionally.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So is, is that what brought you to the place to write Emotionally Intelligent Parenting?

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Well, honestly, what brought me to that place was my work, uh, with my two colleagues, Brian Friedlander, and Steve Tobias as clinicians, and, and, and we were having this if-only experience. We were saying... so, so here, when, when people come to us in therapy, we're doing this social skills teaching and social and emotional development instruction, well, why can't we just move that up and help parents understand this, um, when they're first having their kids. So that's really what the book consists of, it's sort of like an early warning system, uh-

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

... for parents, "Here are the things you can do so you're less likely to have your kids run into trouble," and, and it's all based on what happens in everyday routines. You know, it's not like parents are gonna, you know, get up with a chalkboard and start teaching this skills to their kid, it happens around the dinner table, it happens as we get ready for the next school day, the night before, it happens around our bedtime routines, it happens on our car rides, it happens in the way we talk to our kids, in the way we set up our rule structures and routines.

Um, uh, let me give you one very specific example of a small thing that makes a very big difference, so you know, how often, as parents, when we're with our kids, we say, "It's time to go," why is it time to go? Because for about 20 minutes, we've been looking for a way to get out of this situation we're in, we've had enough, and, and at some point, we say, "It's time to go." Well for the kids, maybe it's not time to go, maybe they just started playing a game or maybe they're having a great conversation, why is it time to go? Because the adult decided it was time to go.

So when we tell our kids things like, "We're leaving in five minutes," that communicates many things to our kids, number one, it communicates, we respect you, that we respect your time, number two, it's that we expect that you have the ability to organize yourself to get ready to go in 5 minutes, because it's gonna be 5 minutes, not gonna be 25 minutes or 35 minutes or 40 minutes, it's gonna be 5 minutes and we're going. Um, and, and so we're asking our kids to build their planning skills, "Okay, I got five minutes left, what do I wanna say? What do I wanna do? How do I wanna bring this game to a close? How do I wanna continue this conversation?" All of this cognitive activity is tremendously skill building for our kids, and it's all contain in the very small thing, "We're gonna leave in five minutes," as opposed to, "It's time to go right now," right? Um, let's take another great example, one of my favorites, breakfast time-

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

(laughs)

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

... right, parent asks the kid, "What do you want for breakfast?" Kid says, "Well, you know, I really like some pancakes with some fruit and maybe some chocolate chips in the pancakes," the parent says, "We don't have time for that," well, w- why are you saying that? So, so now we've got a situation where we've given the kid a, a, a question, and then... we, we, we knew the answer from the beginning. So giving our kids structured choices is an incredibly powerful thing to do, it's more powerful than just putting a breakfast like right on the table and saying, "Eat this or el... and that's it."

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

(laughs)

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

So we say to the kids, "Well, d- do you want cereal, or do you want oatmeal?" Or, "We got three different choices of cereal, which kind of cereal do you wanna have?" Those things make your kids cognitively become better problem solvers, they gotta think, "Well, Hmm, which do I want? What is my preference? Why do I want this or that?" And then of course, whatever answer they give you, you can comply with, because you have, you have set the choices, right?

For all kinds of routines, giving our kids choices builds so many important social and emotional skills, and not only that, it models the asking of questions, and one of the things that our kids have to do for the future that we know they're gonna have to do for the future is not just answer questions in school and in other places, they're have to ask good questions, and so we can't be upset if our kids say to us, "Well, why do I have to have cereal?" Because then we have to have an explanation, "Well, you have to have cereal because we only have 12 minutes to get breakfast done so we can get out of the house, so I can be on time, so you can be on time, everybody can be on time, that's why we're having cereal." So if a kid... if the kid turns around and says, "Well, you know, if I have a slice of toast, it will take eight minutes-"

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

(laughs)

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

... you know, that's shows good planning on their part, some analysis skills, some good conversational skills, and then if we sort of go along with that, we're again, giving our kids a great deal of respect and credit for understanding the situation in the household and working with us. So, so, you know, you, you could take any number of situations you like, and the way we interact with our kids does a tremendous amount with regard to their social and emotional development, and so in Emotionally Intelligent Parenting, we just sort of articulate that so that parents can sort of say, "Oh yeah, oh, in this situation, in that situation." They could see a lot of what they're doing in those situations, and maybe how, with a little tweaking, um, they can promote the skills of their kids even more.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So let's talk a little bit about, what we know about the importance of social and emotional development, so can you speak a little bit about what we know from the research around social and emotional development?

DR. MAURICE ELIAS:

Right. So, so here's, here's how I would summarize the research, and there are hundreds of studies that talk about this, and, and the way I would summarize it is that social and emotional skills help make our valued outcomes happen. So, so, you know, we could talk about social and emotional skills, but it's, it's, I think, more relevant to talk about how do social and emotional skills help kids avoid depression, or if they are depressed, get out of it more quickly? How do they help our kids be less anxious? How do they help our kids be better academically? How do they help our kids be more understanding of, of, of human...

Parenting Process for Your Child's Success Podcast

0:00 MUSIC 

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.. In this podcast, we'll be learning about a parenting process for your child's success. 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

Having a process to follow, to build relationships and communication skills really sets kids up for positive things in their future. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I'd like to introduce our guest today, BARBARA HOPKIN. Barbara earned her bachelor's degree in English Education from Florida State University. After teaching middle and high school students, she earned her master's degree in counseling from the University of Wyoming. Barbara's worked with children and families as a community, mental health counselor, and school counselor. So welcome Barbara. 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

Thank you. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Thanks for being here. We are talking about a parenting process for a child success today. A step by step process parents or someone in a parenting role can follow. So let's start today by having you explain a little bit more about what this is.

BARBARA HOPKIN:

The parenting process is a way for parents to interact with their children. It can be used to address simple challenges or more complex challenges. But it's intentional and it can really build your child's skills. It can also really improve your relationship with your child, as well as your communication with your child as you use the process. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I'm pretty certain that when I was growing up, my parents didn't have a process they were following. And early on with my own kids, I know I read books and I soaked up theories on parenting, but once they arrived, a lot of what I learned, it just went out the window. So using a parenting process sounds a bit daunting. How do you even get started? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So you begin slowly and you choose one issue or topic that you'd like to practice the process to address. Maybe you'd like to work on confidence with your child, or maybe you're hoping to grow, to grow their reading skills. Then once you decide where you'd like to start on the website, you pick a tool for your child's age and begin working through it as a guide, there's step by step ideas of how to get started and what to say. There are summaries to print out so that you have the ability to post the tool that you chose somewhere, and it's easy to access. And as you become more familiar with the process, you become more comfortable and you might even find yourself using it without a specific tool to address things that come up in daily life with your child. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I know that throughout the day, I have a lot of conversations with my kids. But I don't plan out each one like that. How, how would you even get started, doing something like the parenting process? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So you think about areas that you'd like to see a change, maybe a behavior that isn't going well. And then by using the process, you really get to have an engaging conversation with your child about what's going on, how they're feeling about what's going on, and then you get to decide, you know, what skills you would like to teach them and be able to support them through using the process to grow new skills and change behaviors.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So it's not, it's a process, it's not a script, right? It's just a way of interacting with your kid?

BARBARA HOPKIN:

Exactly. It's a way of interacting and it's some steps to follow, but you don't have to follow them in order every time either. So it's just a way of interacting in a process to communicate that really conveys respect and helps children gain confidence and make healthy choices. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I'm thinking that if I have a process for dealing with everyday issues like confidence or reading, I'd have a pretty good foundation for dealing with bigger issues down the road. Is that right? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

Yes, that's exactly right.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

We know that from the website, that there are five steps to the parenting process. It starts with getting input, then teaching, practicing, supporting, and recognizing. 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

Yes. And through those five steps in the process, you're engaging in a conversation with your child. You're teaching them skills, you're allowing them to practice, you're supporting their learning and you're recognizing their effort along the way as they try new skills. And most importantly, going through the process really helps to build a positive relationship with your child. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Okay. So I wanna dig in with you on what each step is, why it's important and what it looks like with children at every age. So let's begin with step one, which is get input. So what is this? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So getting input is about really purposely creating an opportunity to interact and engage with your child, to really hear them out and, and listen to understand their perspective and their feelings on something.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Okay. So help me understand what that means for parents with infants. How would you do that?

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So for an infant it's really about getting to know their facial expressions, their movements, their sounds, and becoming familiar with the way that they can communicate at that age.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Okay. So getting input is about getting to know and understand them, what they're feeling, what they need. I remember those early days, uh, and, and that learning curve that came with that. How about for parents with teens, you know, children and teens? What does input look like for them? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So for them, input really looks like creating an opportunity to engage where you truly hear and value what they say. So you're really listening to understand and asking questions to help them dig a little deeper and  engage with you about a topic.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I can hear people saying that it sounds like getting input would maybe undermine their authority as a parent. Can you just speak to that a little bit? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

Sure. So getting input doesn't undermine authority, it actually helps to teach respect and helps your child develop critical thinking skills and problem solving skills. While you listen to their concerns and allow them to share their ideas, it requires them to really think things through and process how they are thinking and feeling about something.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

All right. So let's talk about a specific issue to get an example. So this helps me, so when my kids were younger, I remember at times tantrums were an issue. I remember leaving more than one movie theater, um, with my, probably with both my kids. So what would getting input look like when you're addressing tantrums with like a five or a six year old? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So tantrums with a five year, six year old, I would recommend using a recent tantrum. So bringing up the incident that recently happened, as an example, and asking them, "Would it be all right if we talked about what made you so upset at the movie theater the other day?" And then really actively listening to their response to help understand what was most concerning for them, help them make connections between their feelings and how their body was feeling at that time versus how their body feels when they're calm. Getting input is really an opportunity to become more aware of how your child is thinking and feeling.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

All right, so that makes sense. That six year old is now a 13, so I have a 13 year old now and a lot of what I'm dealing with centers around routines, and I've found that she's getting out the door a little bit later every day. So how would I get input around my teenager's morning routines?

BARBARA HOPKIN:

Mornings can be a wild time, that's for sure (laughs). So it sounds like she may already have a routine in the morning, but it just might need to be revisited a little bit. I would start by asking her what could we do to make our morning routine go smoothly and be out the door on time and really hear what she thinks. Ask her what is challenging about being ready on time and have her think through that? What could you do to make this challenge easier? So it's really gaining input, allowing her the chance to think through the morning and what she could do to improve it. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So for her, I can feel that it would really create a sense of ownership in the outcome for her. And then, you know, when we were talking about the infants, I think that it helps me respond to those cues. So why in the process is this the first step?

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So it's the first step because it really helps for parents to correct any assumptions they may have about what's going on. They really hear the experience from their child's perspective. But it also builds confidence and conveys respect. And like you said, if she's really a part of the conversation, she has a lot more buy in and following too. It also gets her thinking, it gives her the ability to develop some new skills. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So what should parents avoid when seeking input? Are there any, are there any pitfalls here that we need to be looking out for?

BARBARA HOPKIN:

You definitely want to seek input at a time when everyone's calm and well rested and not in a rush. It might even be the next day if you've had a really tough interaction or time with something. So just waiting for a moment when everyone is in a good place to talk is very important. Some of the parents I work with, if they've had something tough, go on such as a teenager coming home late, and they're feeling worried and upset, they'll even make sure their teen is okay, and then get a good night's sleep, really gather themselves and think about how they wanted to have this conversation before talking. And when they take that time to pause and wait for the right moment, the conversation ends up going a lot better. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So I'm curious about some of the parents that you have been working with and just what you're hearing from parents about this step. Like I'd love to know, you know, what places are they getting stuck or what kind of successes are, are you hearing about?

BARBARA HOPKIN:

Sure. So I think one of the trickiest part for parents sometimes is they are busy and their kids are busy, so when they try to think of a time when no one's tired or hungry or in a rush, sometimes it can be hard to find that time. Some of the best input conversations I've heard about will involve the whole family over dinner. They'll be, for example, gaining input on how they'd like to handle chores in the house and over dinner where everyone's calm, everyone can participate in the conversation. The kids in the conversation can really open up and talk as a family. So finding that right time can be a little tricky, but when you are able to find it to gain input as a family, some really great things can come from it.

Another thing that some parents have talked about is if their child say, had a tantrum, they're hesitant to bring it back up later when their child is calm because they think, "Oh, we're past that, I don't wanna bring it up again." However, in being able to talk about it and hear from their child, what that was like for them, they really are helping to build their child's skills and make a positive plan for the future. So even though it can be tricky to wanna go there in the long run, it really pays off. There's one other thing that parents in this step talk about a lot is sometimes in their own family growing up, they didn't talk about feelings a lot, people didn't express feelings a lot, so it can feel a little bit unnatural at first to talk a lot about feelings.  However, building that feelings vocabulary in children is so powerful in helping them process and navigate challenges throughout life.  So, even though it can feel uncomfortable at first, talking about feelings is a huge piece of gaining input. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Let's talk a little bit about step two. Step two is teaching. What is this and why is the step important?

BARBARA HOPKIN:

This step is really important because it's where you actually demonstrate how to do the task. So for infants, this step is important because by meeting their needs you are teaching them that they're safe and that others can be trusted. For children and teens, teaching is important because it equips them with knowledge and skills to do something new or different. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So this step makes sense to me because as a parent, I often feel like I'm doing that a lot. I'm demonstrating, I'm demonstrating tasks for my children. And especially when they were younger, we are learning, you know, a lot of new skills. So is teaching just done through demonstrating or what are some other ways of teaching? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So there's some different approaches. Demonstrating is one of them, also connecting and labeling, as well as modeling are all important pieces of teaching. So demonstrating a skill or a specific behavior can help your child visualize what you're asking them to do, and really think through it. Connecting a new skill to something that they already know and labeling it is also helpful for their confidence as they're learning something new. And then finally parents and those in a parenting role are always modeling behavior for their infant child or teen. So what you say and what you do are very powerful forms of teaching. So it's important to think about that and what you are teaching through what you say and do. Then kinda stepping back and asking yourself, "What behavior would you like your child to learn to replace an inappropriate behavior? What could you teach them to do instead of what they're doing, that's not working for you?" Can be a great place to start with teaching. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So as you are explaining that I'm recognizing that teaching is different from telling. At teaching's core, it sounds like it's really about skill building. 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

It is, it definitely is. And that's a common theme that comes up. It's hard not to get in the habit of just telling sometimes, but teaching is definitely a skill building event.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So let's talk about the example that we used earlier about a younger child who is dealing with tantrums, what would you teach when wanting to address tantrums? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So the very first thing to think about if your child is having a tantrum is focusing on calming yourself down first and then your child. So taking a parenting break really gives you the chance to respond rather than react to a tantrum or struggle. It also models the compound strategies that you're wanting your child to maybe try such as taking a deep breath or taking a walk or getting water. So it helps in two ways, the parent then is more calm, but the child has also seen their parent go through the calm down strategies. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That makes sense. 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So, yeah, so then once the parent's in control of their own emotions, they have a chance to explore what's going on for their child emotionally. Then they can think about some things they maybe want to teach. For example, I statements are a great way for kids to feel awareness and express their emotions in a respectful way, or think about what coping strategies and calm down strategies they want to come up with in a list to practice, to build those emotional regulation skills that are so important. Then finally, another piece of teaching that is really helpful for kids is to really be involved and to think about how to repair harm done and to build responsibility for maintaining healthy relationships. So, really thinking about how to repair anything that didn't go so well. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That makes sense. Tell me about how teaching might look different for a teen. How could I teach my 13 year old about routines?

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So as a parent of a teen, thinking of tasks and responsibilities that are age appropriate is important, and giving them feedback as far as tasks they are eager to learn in order to gain independence is important. So thinking about what would they like to learn to be more responsible for can really help.Specifically, parents can model a task, so do what you would like them to do, and then ask your teen what, what they noticed. Then the teen can do the modeling and ask what they notice when they're doing their own modeling. Practice together and provide feedback starting with strengths first .

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

What are you hearing from parents on that step? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So what I hear about this step is when parents really do take the time to teach, it really makes a big difference in their teen's success and confidence. So,one parent told me about wanting her teen to take responsibility for yard work and in really having her teen watch her mow the lawn, do the weed whacking, go through all the steps that she wanted to have done. Then when he was ready to model back for her, those responsibilities, it set him up for success. And then after she was able to watch him and have him talk about what he did and ask any questions he had, then he was really ready to do these chores more independently.

So if this step is skipped, there tends to be a lot less willingness for follow through. And this can be frustrating for both the child and the parent. And sometimes I think this stuff gets skipped because parents assume that their child knows how to complete a task that will meet their expectations, but this isn't always the case. So if that parent hadn't taken the time to teach her son how she wanted the yard work done, then he might have done it in a way that she ended up having to redo it or have him redo it and it would've been frustrating for them both. 

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Oh, I see myself in that spot right there - if I would've just stopped and spent the time there that would've made, that would've made a lot of sense. So we've discussed,input and teach and the next is, practicing. So why is this important? 

BARBARA HOPKIN:

So the practicing step is really important to create opportunities for kids to be able to try what they're learning. It's okay if they sometimes fail and then to repeat their efforts. So it's beneficial, 'cause it really builds their capacity to learn, improve, grow habits, grow social and emotional skills, and it supports a growth mindset, which is huge. It also gives you an opportunity to handle feedback and help them correct mistakes, and that growth mindset piece is big because even if things are challenging as they practice, if you're able to help them think through those in a positive way with positive self talk, then they'll be able to take on challenges

Intentional Ways to Grow a Healthy Parenting Relationship 

0:00 MUSIC

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.

. In this podcast, we'll be learning about intentional ways to grow a healthy parenting relationship.

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

A healthy parenting relationship is the foundation for everything. All learning starts in relationships.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, what does that mean? It means that as a parent or someone in a parenting role, we've got to plan. We can choose to be purposeful and deliberate in the ways we parent to create a foundation for our child's success. We can choose to be involved, to be consistent and predictable, provide opportunities, and engage in intentional communication. So today, I'd like to introduce you to our guest on our podcast. I have Dr. Shannon Wanless, an applied developmental psychologist and director for The Office of Child Development at the University of Pittsburgh School of Education. So hi, Shannon, how are you?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Oh, good. I'll just say, you started your career as a Head Start teacher, and you spent the first year as a parent living in Taiwan as a Fulbright scholar. You have two kiddos, 11 and 13, and you make your home in Pittsburgh. Is that right?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

That's right.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Alright. Perfect. Well, today we're so excited to have you. We're going to talk about intentional ways to grow a healthy parenting relationship. So, just to start off, can you talk to us about why that's important?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

A healthy parenting relationship is the foundation for everything. In fact, you mentioned that I began parenting living in Taiwan, and I've done lots of work across cultures and around the world. And, I can say it is the most universal thing there is about parenting, is that that relationship piece is so important for everyone. It's important for the parents and for their children. So, all learning starts in relationships, and your child is turning to you for learning. So, when they're very young and you make that strong relationship with them, they learn that adults and people in their lives can be trusted. And they learn what it's like to trust someone. And then, they really free up their mind to be able to learn and grow and engage together. So, you're really just teaching them what it looks like to connect with others, and then they'll be able to go out in the world and do it for the rest of their lives.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So what I'm hearing you say is that relationships... as parents, relationships are that foundational piece to everything -- our kids' wellbeing, their development, even in the future, their academic achievement. Is that right?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

That's right. It's important for them to be able to learn from you. So, if you're having a healthy relationship with your child, then it frees them up to be able to engage with you and learn with you. But, it also sets the stage for them learning from their teachers in the future, and other people, because they've practiced having that trusting relationship with you. So they'll be able to then apply it to other people for the rest of their lives.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, as my children grow up, I have to remind myself often that through the issues that we face, that relationship is a priority. So here's a question that I have. When I'm thinking about my kids, I have to stop and reflect that I need a relationship where I can tell my daughter, like if something's wrong, and then be able to sort of walk through what's going on. Or, I need a relationship to share our hopes and dreams. Or, for me to come to them with concerns, and for them to come back to me with questions, and it's not just respect but also love, and also just a relationship that can be lighthearted and fun. But, what I've often heard at times is that a parent shouldn't be your child's friend. So, is that different? And, what are your thoughts on that?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

It's absolutely different. So you're caring about your child, of course, maybe the way a good friend would. But your child is turning to you for some guidance and structure. Even if it doesn't sound like they're asking for that, that is really what they're looking for is a model or an example -- someone that they can trust to pave the way of what your family believes is the important way to be in this world. So, they're not turning to their friends for that; they're turning to their friends to have fun together, to experience relationships together. But, that friend could come and go, even if they think they'll never go. Friends could come and go.

Your parent is someone who's steady, predictable, there for you. Even in those moments when it doesn't feel like they want you around. You're still hovering around in the background, figuring out how to do some dirty dishes or fold the laundry three times in a row just so you can be in that space and be available, even when you're not getting the most inviting signals from them. So, that's really different than what a friend would be doing for them.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, as a parent, it sounds like there's some... just some steps that we can look at. Like, how do we do this? How to have a healthy parenting relationship. So what's the first thing that you would say with how do we do this?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Well, I would say spending time with your child is really important, and it's good time with your child. So, that doesn't mean on your cell phone, even though I am guilty of that sometimes, as many of us are. It really means figuring out how to be present and how to be engaged in the things that will bring you and your child some connection and joy together. So, that could be doing household chores. It doesn't have to be fun all the time, but it's really being present and involved and connected with them. When they're little, they come after you often, looking for you to be involved. And you don't have to work that hard to be interacting with them. But, you have to work hard, I think, sometimes to be present in the things that are important to them.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, as my son's growing up, he's definitely more interested in hanging out with his friends and less and less opportunities for me to be involved with him. So, what does that look like for someone in a parenting role with a teen?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Well, I have to say, my children are getting there. So I've been noticing this and thinking about this a lot too. Right now, parents are home with their kids more than ever. I think the feeling that if your children are young, you need to be with them; you need to help them with their homework; you need to help manage their day; but then that feeling goes away as they get older, is really not true. In fact, they can manage some tasks on their own, but there's such an art to hovering in the background that I think I'm developing. I don't know if you feel this.

But it also takes more time to connect sometimes, because it's not always the right moment to connect. And so you do have to sort of gracefully be around and available and peeking in and checking in. But, if they're talking with friends over the internet, or if they're doing homework, or if they're frustrated at something that just happened at school, they may not be open and available. But you have to then circle back and circle back until it is the right time. You catch that present and engaged moment. It's a funny skill. It's a little bit stealth, I think.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

No, that's good. You mentioned too, just earlier about the idea of being consistent and predictable and... That makes a lot of sense, but I struggle here a bit too. So, for example, as a mom on one day, I can be really patient and respond to my daughter, and the next day, I just don't have the same level of patience for the same situation. I know that being predictable on how I respond has a really calming effect on her, but how do I handle when there's things going on in my life that interfere with my parenting and how I respond to her without always feeling like I've failed?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Well, actually, even though consistent and predictable are important, if you acted the same exact way every day, all the time, you'd be like a robot. So, none of us are exactly the same. So, when your stress levels go up and down and your busy-ness in your life and other things are happening, that's actually such a great moment to be honest and authentic with your child. Maybe it's something you feel like you can share with them, and maybe not. But you can always share, "Mom feels stressed right now. I feel really stressed. So even though it was okay to play the music loud yesterday, I'm just a little bit worked up, and I feel like it's not a good time for me. So today, I'd feel better if we just kept the volume down."

That isn't being inconsistent, because if you're always being authentic and acknowledging, “I feel different. The moment's different. I know I said something yesterday that's not today,” is being human with them. Actually, they're going to feel different every day, and so it models for them what do they do when a friend wanted to do something yesterday that was okay, but it's really not okay for them right now because they have to study for a test. So, I think the consistency is authenticity and not flying off the handle and screaming about something, but just being honest.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Well, I think too, if they know that... If my daughter knows that I'm being honest, and she knows I'm going to have bad days sometimes, I think I could see where that could create just a level playing field, I think sometimes for us. So, another question I have is, I read where providing guidelines for your child can help them find their own way. I know that providing guidelines vary based on the age of my child, but what does that look like for our younger kids, like zero to four? So, what advice can you give parents of this age?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Well, when they're young, they really do eat up opportunities to explore their independence. Even one and a half - two, they're trying to figure out the world. And so, a chance to do something on their own they can really relish. But, you don't want them to do just anything. So, starting out with choices is always the best. Now, the problem I see people run into is they know which choice they want the child to pick, “So you can brush your teeth, or you can just go to bed.” Well, you don't really feel that way. You know they need to brush their teeth before they go to bed.

So, the art of giving choices takes a little practice, but it's about being genuinely okay with either one that they're going to pick. So, you could have milk or water for dinner, either one is fine. Also, them feeling like they really can choose either one. So, when you feel that way inside -- that whatever you do within this set of guidelines is okay -- they will feel like you genuinely trust them and you're genuinely giving them some independence. And that sets the stage for when they're a teenager, and you need to be able to show them you genuinely trust them to stay out all the way until their curfew.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

The choices can be scary, though, for a parent. Because, what if I offered two choices, and they want something different? You can have water or milk, and what if they say, "But I want soda"? Then what?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

If it's really something that's not okay, then you need to say, "Nope. Soda's not okay." Especially as they get old enough to understand, you can say, "No, that's not one of the choices. It has too much sugar for me. I'm going to pick the other two. It's only okay to have water or milk." But, if they do pick something else that's okay, I think negotiating and being open to discussing, that is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of being reasonable and showing your child that you take their ideas seriously.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, it really is about empowering them by teaching them to make decisions, which I think is great, and finding the balance of guiding them, but not controlling them. That can be challenging for parents. Another thing that I think I struggle with is allowing them to make mistakes that I see are coming. Sometimes that can be tough...and still giving them the ability to make their own choices. Any thoughts on that?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Well, definitely something to think about is this mistake a big problem or a little problem? So, when they spill out all the blocks or all those tiny puzzle pieces all over the floor, that's going to be a disaster to pick up, and it's going to take a long time, and they're probably going to end up crying that they don't want to pick it up with you. But, it's not really the end of the world. If you have time to deal with it in that moment and the patience to work together to get it cleaned up and show that this wasn't easy, maybe it wasn't the best way to do it, but we got through it, then that's a lesson. That's a mistake you want to make, because they learn from it. And then they'll think about that in the future when they're getting out the puzzles. But, if it's something that's not safe or you know is really not okay, then those are definitely ones to stop before they happen.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, when you're building this healthy parenting relationship, it seems like communication and being able intentionally communicate is really important. What are the steps or the tips that you can give us as parents to practice that intentional communication?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Well, I would say that listening is overlooked -- just how important that one is. Listening is really a big deal, and kids often... Young kids talk a lot sometimes, and so it's easy to kind of tune out all of that chatter in the background. But, they are dying to be taken seriously. They really want to be heard and taken seriously. So, when you are genuinely listening to them, they feel that you've built trust in your relationship. When you think about any adult relationship that you have, someone that listens to you and you really listen to, that someone that you know cares about you, that's someone you enjoy connecting with.

So part of listening is building in pauses when you're talking, so there is space for them to talk. So I often will hear parents at a playground or something ask so many questions in a row, looking for the child's answer. But then they don't wait long enough for the answer to come. So, I remember when I was a Head Start teacher years ago, with the infants and toddlers, we were taught to talk, say something, and then wait. And then offer an answer, if one's needed. And wait, and then respond again and wait. And they just kept emphasizing that wait time, so that it truly is a conversation, even if your child needs a minute to formulate their thoughts to jump in.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I read that lecturing and giving advice, or sort of that one way approach to communication don't really align with the idea of intentional communication. So, I have just a question. I remember watching my daughter play with a friend and have a disagreement, and I felt like I really wanted to step in and offer suggestions right there about ways she could have dealt with the situation differently. Am I not supposed to do that? Like, is that advice giving? Or what thoughts do you have there?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Well, it's a hard one. If you think about yourself, any of us, when we go to someone... So, when I come home at the end of the day from work and I say to my husband, "You won't believe what so-and-so did." If he jumps into advice mode, "It sounds like you jumped too quickly to invite someone else to the meeting, and that's why she's upset." I don't want to hear that. What I want to hear is him saying, "Oh, that sounds terrible." I think figuring out when you are in the, "I'm here to listen and connect and offer empathy and really hear your perspective," that is one mode versus, "I'm here to give you advice and teach you a skill" mode.

Any of us are not very good at learning when our emotions are high. So when you come home and you're so upset from something that happened at school, it's really not the moment to learn a new skill. So, that could be the moment to connect to say, "I hear you. That sounds terrible." And, then maybe you follow up after dinner or a little bit later with a story or an idea or something that could be a little more advice-giving and guidance when the emotions have calmed down a bit.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, I think I'm hearing you say that just trying to understand the point of view, even in the moment, is important. And, that reminded me of a question I'm recently facing with my daughter is trying to understand her point of view at times. But sometimes her point of view is just so different than what I have, and that can really challenge me. This is a weird example, but in my house, we're having this issue right now about food. So, my daughter is 12, and so she's recently become more comfortable being a vegetarian and the rest of us aren't.And so, trying to understand her point of view, when it's not necessarily one that the rest of us share. Any advice on that? Just to try to keep that... I keep coming back, it's all about the relationship, but sometimes I don't get it or it's not how I would see things. So any thoughts there?

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

Well, my daughter's in a similar situation, so-

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Oh good. That makes me feel better.

DR. SHANNON WANLESS:

But I think for many moments with children, no matter how old they are, you have an idea of what happened or if they're right or wrong in your head, even if you can't see the moment. So I'm thinking, because you mentioned food, of your child asking for you another cookie and you're saying to them, "Didn't you just have one after school?" But you can't remember if they had one. And they say, "No, I didn't have one." So in that moment, you have to decide. You're not sure. You think she just wants another cookie, but you don't really have any information that she's lying.

So there are a million moments I find in my parenting that are that where you don't really know, and you can side with your child and just assume. Unless you have factual information to the contrary, I'm going to always assume that my daughter has thought this through, that she's telling me the truth, and we're going to work on that assumption until I know otherwise. So, like being a vegetarian, I'm going to assume that she's really thought about this and this is what she wants to go with. And, I don't have to go with it myself. But, until I hear otherwise that it's not healthy or not working for her, I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt that this is a good idea for her.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That can be difficult sometimes, but I hear what you're saying. So another, just looking at intentional parenting is this......

Guidance and Discipline for Skill Building Podcast

0:00 MUSIC

0:07 ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Hello, I'm Annmarie McMahill and this is a Tools for Your Child’s Success podcast.

In this podcast, we'll be learning about guidance and discipline for skill building.

JENNIFER MILLER:

Guidance and discipline for skill building is really about being deliberate and purposeful.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

I'd like to introduce our guest for today, Jennifer Miller. Jennifer has 20 years of experience working with adults to help them become more effective with children through social and emotional learning. She is the author and illustrator of the book, Confident Parents, Confident Kids, Raising Emotional Intelligence in Ourselves and Our Kids from Toddlers to Teenagers. Jennifer is also the contributing expert to NBC's Today Parenting. In addition, she's contributed to a lot of articles and expertise in popular publications like the Washington Post, the Huffington Post, and Edutopia. And, most importantly, she's the mom of a 12-year-old son, and she makes her home in Ohio. So, welcome, Jennifer.

JENNIFER MILLER:

Thank you, Annmarie. It's a treat. I'm looking forward to our topic today.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Oh, good. So, today we're going to talk about guidance and discipline for skill building. And, my first question is just, what does this mean? And why is that important?

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah. Guidance and discipline for skill building is really about being deliberate and purposeful as a parent or any caregiver in how you support your child through the missteps and mistakes that naturally happen with development. They necessarily need to test boundaries. And, so how we handle that can be a skill building opportunity. We can always look at those moments and transform those moments into opportunities to build skills like self control, like learning responsibility. So, they are a social and emotional skill building moment.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Alright. So, what I'm hearing you say is that parents can provide guidance and discipline while growing skills and overall improve their relationship with their child.

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah, that's key. I think looking for opportunities to build skills also enhances your trust with your child so that instead of jumping to scolding or responding with a raised tone of voice, if we step back and take a moment and think about how we could use it as a teachable moment, it actually can deepen our trust between parent and child and use it as a moment where we can develop these social and emotional skills that we know are so critical in life.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, at what age is guidance and discipline for skill building appropriate?

JENNIFER MILLER:

Well, you can teach social and emotional skills from birth all the way through emerging adulthood. And I think that we have created specific tools for promoting guidance and discipline. And, correct me if I'm wrong, Annmarie, but I think it's two or three on up to 19. Is that correct?

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

The website does have that sort of starting at two. And so, what's the difference between zero to two and two to 19?

JENNIFER MILLER:

It’s really awareness. Babies, infants, and toddlers are not yet aware enough to push boundaries. But, when they hit about the age of two, three, and we can feel it as parents, they are ready to take risks. They're ready to take chances. They're ready to push back. They learn that word, “no,” and they use it over and over again. And, it can really push our buttons. So, because it can push our buttons, we can react in ways, maybe, that we were reacted to as children from our parents. But, there may be ways that we don't want to react -- that we think at the end of the night, "Ah, I lost my patience. I lost my temper." And so, the tools really help us be focused. We can calm down in that moment if we're frustrated and say, "This could be that transformative moment where I could teach a sense of responsibility, I could teach self-control. And so, I'm going to stop. I'm going to pause. I'm going to think about the tools and how I can turn this into a teachable moment."

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

For our younger kids though, our zero to two, it's a little bit different. So, what does that look like for the zero to two range?

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah. So, for the zero to two, and I would say all the way through. But, specifically for zero to two, it's more about parenting self control or caregiver self control, right? So, it is difficult to listen to a baby cry for two hours.And babies, most babies, research confirms -- they cry two to three hours a day. So, for a caregiver, that can really wear on your last nerve. And, of course, we know that babies are becoming sensitized to the world. There are many things that can go on with a baby. Even if you've, you've diapered, you've fed, you've given naps, and still they're crying -- a caregiver can just be so frustrated.

And so, in those moments, with those young children, how do we build our own self control in those moments? And, in other words, how do we step back? How do we pause? How do we make sure they're safe? But then, also, how do we take care of ourselves? We take some deep breaths. I know moms that use the Calm app and turn on those soothing nature sounds. And, they breathe so that they can really sustain themselves during crying, so that they'll be there for their baby but also maintain that self control that can be so challenging.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, it sounds like it's important to really, as a parent or in a parenting role, be educated about child development and make sure that our expectations are realistic and be able to help identify strategies that are not only age appropriate, but just being aware of our child's changing needs. Is that what you would say?

JENNIFER MILLER:

It's so true.When you look at the research on parenting resilience, how we can deal with our stress and sustain our patience over time, it comes down to understanding our children's development. It's key. Honing our own social and emotional skills so that we can use those things like self control, sense of responsibility, and learn ways to hone them in our children. And, a third component of parenting resilience is asking for support. When we don't feel like we know how to transform it into a teachable moment, how can we ask for help? And, sometimes that's hard, but I think that all parents and caregivers require support. It takes a village, right? And so, we can't be shy about seeking out educational resources, confidants, grandparents, whatever supports we can find to help us be the parents that we want to be.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

That's great. So, on the website, there's a lot of information on this topic. There's tools for every age, from zero to 19. There's two I Want to Know More resources that focus on guidance and discipline for skill building and logical consequences. And, there's a how-to video. But, even with all of that information, I still have some questions. And, I imagine I'm not the only parent that really struggles with this topic. So, if I can, here's an issue that I had when my son was younger.

My son is a young adult now, but I remember bedtime was such an issue. And, I remembered that he always managed to have multiple requests. He needed water. He needed to go to the bathroom. The door was closed too much. The door was open too much. He needed to be tucked in again. And, it would be 9:30 at night, and he'd continue to get out of bed. And, bedtime started at like 8:00. And so, I'd lead him back to bed, try to address his request as quickly as I could, and tuck him back in again. But, some nights it would escalate to him crying, or he could not calm himself back down again. So, I would go in and to help, but I feared that teaching - keep going back - that I was teaching him that if he cried long enough and loud enough that I'd come back in. And, at that point, I'm frustrated and he's frustrated. Is this a place where guidance and discipline for skill building comes in? And what advice would you have given me that at that time?

JENNIFER MILLER:

So, bedtime is such a challenge for parents, and it's perennial, right? Babies won't sleep at night, and you think it's going to go away when they become school age. And, it doesn't. And then they become teenagers, and it becomes a fight of, “I can stay up as late as I want, all my friends do.” So, bedtime is one of those challenges that is persistent throughout parenting. And, also, I would say a simple, “Yes.” Guidance and discipline for skill building absolutely applies. I think it applies any time you say, "This is a true challenge for me as a parent." It always applies.

But, there's two pieces that you can think about here. One is what can you do in the moment when maybe your son is crying because he's so upset with ... First of all, he's overtired, overstimulated, up late, and also frustrated that you won't give him the kind of attention that he's really seeking. And, you've had a long day of work and parenting. You're exhausted. Your self control is completely gone. So, the challenge of bedtime is also that our patience has been used up throughout the day, and we're kind of done and ready for them to go to sleep and for us to have our own sacred time. So, the two pieces are, what do you do in the moment when you're frustrated? And, then how can you step out of that circumstance and think proactively about becoming intentional about the bedtime routine and how you can set your child up for success? So, which part do you want to talk about first, Annmarie? Do you want to talk about the, in the moment frustration? Yeah? You're shaking your head.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Yeah, because I remember that. Just feeling so torn like, “No, I have to have structure here!” But, then I'd been working all day and maybe felt guilty that I hadn't had a lot of time with him. So, maybe he's wanting my time, and I should do ... So, yeah. I think we should start there.

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah. When it is late, when your child is overstimulated, and they're wiggling, and they're anxious, and they've got all kinds of needs, and your frustration level has peaked, it is a good time to think about a coping strategy that will help both of you. So, is there a way that you can calm down with him again? Maybe it's playing nature sounds. Maybe you do a guided relaxation where you tense up your muscles and then you let them relax. Is there a way that you can go through a relaxation process for both of you at the same time so that you're giving him some attention, which he clearly wants? But, you're also helping both of you calm down because both of you need it. And then, it is after that, a quick goodnight. Maybe it's a hug and a kiss, and I'll see you in the morning and leaving. And, if he's out of bed coming back, “I need this. I need that. I need water. I need a snack,” whatever. Goes on and on, right? If that happens, then you are as brief and boring as possible, brief and boring. In other words, there's no more attention given. We're going to take care of your needs, help yourself to the restroom, whatever, but we're done with all social interaction. We did our love. We did our calming down, and now we're done. And, now it is just taking care of business and going to bed. 

I have coached a lot of parents on this, where, especially with little ones, I have them just hold their hand, not say a word, but guide them back to bed and say, “good night” and leave. And, just keep doing that. And, it is a practice that your child will learn.

Okay, we've done it all. The routine is over. We're done for the day. But, then I think coming away from that and asking yourself, “Do we have an adequate bedtime routine? Are we really in good shape? Is my child getting enough sleep at night?” And, what I encourage parents to do is don't look it up yourself. Look it up with your child. What does science say your age child requires in order to get enough sleep at night? Now, I have a 12-year-old. For a 12-year-old, it's between 10 and 11 hours. If I look it up with him, then it's not mom being a pain. It is science that is telling us this is what he needs. 

Now, another thing that is really important is shutting down screens an hour before bedtime. Screens are known that the light will keep your brain active and keep a child up at night. And, it will completely derail your bedtime routine.

So, how can you set the conditions? Low lighting. Reading is wonderful before bedtime. How can you create a plan together? In other words, sit down with your whole family and say, "Okay, what business do we need to take care of?" Brushing teeth, getting into pajamas, and then can we front load the business so that on the backend we look forward to connecting. Is there a story time? If you're a religious family, is there a prayer, or are there just grateful thoughts that you talk about? Do you do pillow talk, what's your connecting that's on the back end of business? And then, and then you've got a pretty good routine. Everybody knows who's taking responsibility for what? And, when you get into that routine, hopefully you've written it down. It's better if your child writes it and illustrates it, because they have a sense of ownership.

You post it near your child's bedroom or in your child's bedroom. And, you say, "What's next? Oh, brush teeth. That's great. Go do it." Instead of saying, "Time to brush your teeth. Time to brush your teeth." Right? We get into this nagging routine and our children anticipate it and expect it. And, sometimes we train them to the point where they won't move until we've raised our voice, because it doesn't get serious. And so, we raise our voice.But, if we expect that they understand their responsibilities, they know the plan and you just ask them to work the plan and you expect that they'll get their business taken care of. And, there's good stuff on the other side of business, there's a story, or there's some pillow talk. Then you're setting them up for success.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

Well, I like that, because, that it keeps the connection and it gives... I think him... it would have given him a sense of independence over the plan that we've created. And, I also think it's interesting that that really gives me a good example of why this is not just a topic about discipline, but it's guidance and discipline for skill building. Because, I remember finding myself going to the place of yelling or the “tomorrow you're going to bed an hour earlier.” But, this just takes that and transforms it into, well, guiding him in these choices and building his skills along the way of independence and the routine. And, that makes a lot of sense.

JENNIFER MILLER:

Yeah. If you have a plan, if you've talked about the plan when you're not in the bedtime routine, and you've said to your child, "Are there things that are difficult for you? Are there things that you need support with?" And, then you are confident, your child really knows their responsibilities. We've talked about it. They've got it down. We know when they're going to do it. We know how they're going to do it. Then when you get to that routine, the child has a greater sense of responsibility and of confidence. Mom trusts that I'm going to get this accomplished. And, when we're finished, we've got good stuff to look forward to. So, might as well get it done.

I also love timers, because our children are on a very different timeframe than we are. And, our goals are different at night. Our goals are different many times, but at night the goal is stay up for kids. At night the goal is get to bed for parents, right? So, I see one minute timers. Those are wonderful. Those little hourglass one-minute timers, and give it to them. They can control it. It's fun. They get to set it. They get to watch it, but that moves the process along when they're not motivated to move the process along.

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, I can see how this works when we're talking about a routine, like all of this makes sense to me and would have saved me. Would have saved me a lot of grief, I think, back in the day. But, what happens if my child would have done something that sort of ups the ante a little bit? Like how do you talk about guidance and discipline for skill building when it's something like my son has hit me, or maybe he hit another child on the playground? Does that warrant a stronger reaction from me?

JENNIFER MILLER:

Well, I would say you're going to have a strong reaction, because you're human. If your child hits another child, or if a child hits you, it is going to get your emotions raised. So, I think first of all, you're right. When it is a more serious issue like that, we have to acknowledge that we are going to have big feelings when those things happen. But yet, we know that when we are really angry or really frustrated, we likely will not react in ways that later that night we'll say, "Oh, I was really proud of how I reacted." It's not likely. So, we really ... It's great if we can plan ahead for those moments to know that we need to take some time to take care of ourselves. And, it doesn't have to be complicated.

If a teacher is telling us that our child hit another child on the playground, and we can feel the flames rising from our head, we can just take a moment before we address our child. We can walk away. We can breathe. We can calm down enough for our full brain to regain power and not to just be in fight, flight, or freeze mode. So that we can really think about how we can transform it into a teachable moment. If we expect that when we are super angry or super frustrated, we're going to come up with some magical solution that's socially and emotionally intelligent, then we're not acknowledging our humanity. It's super human, and it's just not possible. So, then how can we be real about ourselves in those circumstances? Take that pause. And, by the way, when we take that pause, we are getting a two-fer. Our children are learning self control as they watch us maintain self control. And then say, "How can we transform this into a skill building moment?"

ANNMARIE MCMAHILL:

So, now that my son is older, his behavior seems... everything comes with a lot more risk or there's a lot of higher consequences at stake. So, here's an example. So, lately he's coming home late and keeping me up worrying. And, I realize that when he strolls in past the time that I find acceptable, I should cool down before I talked to him. But, sometimes I feel like I want him to see me worry, like in the moment. And, I want him to know that I'm worried, and then I'm exhausted. And, I stayed up late waiting for him. If I don't address the behavior in the moment, do you feel like some of the impact is lost or as a parent, do I always wait to sort of calm down to address the behavior?

JENNIFER MILLER:

That is so important. I'm so glad that you brought that up, and the truth is -- I am not encouraging hiding your feelings at all. In fact, I think that your son seeing that you're worried, understanding that you're frustrated, is super important. That's how you maintain trust, because that's honesty, right? If...