Why is there such a strong correlation between invasion biology denial, anthropocentrism, ecological illiteracy and permaculture? How can permaculture move forward while at the same time acknowledging the functionality of native plant ecosystems and why the designation of "native" is not some frivolous, arbitrary, or puritanical designation? In this 40 minute conversation between myself and Lilly Anderson-Messec we talk about what permaculture is, its focus on functionality (to humans) and why there tends to be such a predictable link between those who espouse staunch invasion biology denial and their holistic integrative biodynamic permaculture food forest.