Uncertain

S5:E6 - Abuse in the Church: The Role of Sex and Power - with Marie Giffith, PhD

Katherine Spearing

Marie Griffith, PhD, John C. Danforth Distinguished Professor in the Humanities at Washington University in St. Louis. She served for 12 years (2011-2023) as the director of the John C. Danforth Center on Religion and Politics and the editor of the Center’s journal, Religion & Politics. Her research focuses on American Christianity, including the changing profile of American evangelicals and ongoing conflicts over gender, sexuality, and marriage. Author of several books, including Moral Combat: How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics, the book discussed in this episode.

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings

[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Hello. How are you? How are you hanging in there? I hope you're doing okay. I'm doing semi okay. It's been a lot inundation with this very real, very damaging type of abuse. One thing that you may or may not know is folks who have experienced spiritual abuse and folks who have experienced sexual abuse.

They're very similar to each other. Spiritual abuse and sexual abuse are very, very similar. The impact is very, very similar because it is so, so vulnerable. You are so vulnerable when this happens and it violates our intimacy and it violates our very souls in a way that maybe other abuse doesn't. So if you are traumatized.

By the abuse that you experienced in a church [00:01:00] or a high control environment or religious environments in your family. There's a reason for that. It makes a lot of sense. It's very, very serious trauma. So one of the things that we discussed in this episode is how the folks who. experience sexual abuse when they go to the religious institution where they experience that abuse and say, Hey, help me, this happened, this was awful, please help me.

When they get dismissed or falsely accused or sidelined or silenced, that that is sometimes worse than the sexual abuse that they experienced in that institution. This episode is with Marie Griffith. She is the author of Moral Combat, How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics. It's an intense book.

A lot of research went into this book. She's also a scholar [00:02:00] and a professor of religion at Washington University. And one of the things we will also discuss in this episode is how she literally taught a class on abuse in the church in a secular university. What? Crazy, crazy, crazy. Great conversation, lots of mind blowing moments about the connection between sex and sexual abuse and the rampant abuse that is happening in the evangelical church right now.

Enjoy, or don't enjoy, but take it in for sure. And as always, take care of yourself, get some rest, give yourself some time after this episode to go for a walk, take a sip of water, breathe. You're okay, wherever you are, you are okay, take a deep breath, you are safe, you are here, you are now, you are present, you're going to be okay.[00:03:00]

Here is my interview with Marie Griffith.

Katherine: Hi, Catherine. Oh, how are you? How are you? And I have your big book here. This was a lot of work. She took this.

Marie: And that was like I don't even want to tell you how many years. I mean, it was really sort of 15 years. I did other things as I was doing that,

Katherine: but yeah. Yeah, just like the amount of research that went into just like one chapter I was like, this was a very large endeavor. But how are you this morning? How are you doing? How is your writing? Is it like a writing sabbatical? Is that kind of what this season is called?

Marie: Yeah, I'm on, I'm on research leave. You know, it's just a standard leave that scholars get every few years. So but yeah, it's focused on working on this book about sexual clergy, sexual

Katherine: abuse. Oh, my gosh. Did I know that? Did you tell me about that? I don't know if I knew from

Marie: that [00:04:00] I had taught that course on the abuse crisis in modern Christianity.

And so the reason I taught the course was because I started doing research on clergy sexual abuse in both the U. S. Catholic Church And evangelical groups, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention, although not only

Katherine: the Southern. Okay. I don't know if I knew that the book itself was about clergy sexual abuse.

So I definitely want to hear so much about that. Really excited to talk to you. I'm just like, as I'm like reading this book, I'm like, okay. We just need to be friends because I like everything that you research and everything that you're, I'm like, it's all like stuff that I'm like thinking about constantly.

And then just like even reading your book. And then when Megan told me that she literally had a class on like abuse that is happening in the church, I was like. Wait, who, like, led this? Whose idea was it to have this class? Like, tell me, tell me so much more. And so that's why I was, like, very [00:05:00] interested to talk to you.

And so I would just love to hear very just to start how you got into doing what you're doing and how this became important to you.

Marie: Sure, sure. Yeah. And thank you so much. I really love your podcast and admire the work that you do too, Catherine. So thank you. Well, I am from Chattanooga, Tennessee originally.

I was raised Southern Baptist. I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s. So as you may know, that was a time of just tremendous change in the culture, but also for Southern Baptists in particular, and within evangelical Protestantism more generally. The church I grew up in was a really, I thought of it as just a very kind of, you know, ordinary.

Church, it was 1st Baptist Church Chattanooga, you know, the kind of flagship Southern Baptist Church of the city. But the, the kind of tensions in the Southern Baptist Convention. Between, [00:06:00] you know, for shorthand, let's say the fundamentalist and the moderates, because that's, you know, what they called each other, at least at the time was really strong.

And my mother was the pastor's secretary over a number of years, and she cared deeply about these issues. My dad was the deacon chair for a number of years. So this was dinner table conversation. What was happening within the denomination and. My parents were both moderates. And so I kind of heard that side of it.

And it was really painful. A lot of the pastors that I had that worked at our church felt very betrayed by things that happened, convention politics and all of that. And when I left for college, I thought I left it all behind. I mean, it was really painful enough that I just turned my back on a lot of that.

But I found myself studying religion and really sort of wondering how all of that came to be. So in some ways, I mean, I think that has, explains a lot about my career, why I became a [00:07:00] scholar of American religion. I've focused on evangelicals. I focused on women. I focused on debates over women's roles, sexuality, and sex.

And now clergy sexual abuse. So it really is. There's a personal story behind that, as I think it is for so many scholars.

Katherine: Absolutely. And then have you been able to trace? So you're working on a book right now about clergy sexual abuse. And then your book that I was reading before we interviewed.

Moral combat. The subtitle is how sex divided American Christians and fractured American politics. Have you been able to trace? The link from this divide to clergy sexual abuse, is that pretty, a pretty clear link for

you?

Marie: I think so. And, you know, I, critics may argue with me, and they have every right to argue with me, but what I see from the sources, the [00:08:00] long historical sources that I've looked at over many archives that really begin in the really the late 19th century, but certainly by the 1920s and the birth control movement has been a real power struggle within American Christianity, Catholicism as well as, as, as Protestantism, I should say over leadership, over theology, and maybe more than anything else over the appropriate role of women and, and how to think about gender, how God created men and women.

and what their appropriate roles are supposed to be. I think we can see that debate starting with The birth control movement, really going back before that, but my book started with the birth control movement, moving through debates over literary censorship sex education in the public schools, homosexuality, same sex rights, abortion, reproductive rights, sort of all the way through.

And so, you know, that's, that's an [00:09:00] oversimplification to some degree, but I do think that those wars over sex. over gender, over, over women and, and women's roles in the public sphere and in the family explain an awful lot of our conflicts culture wars conflicts as they are. And, and I do think that's what's led us to the current moment and the, the real fervor over clergy sexual abuse.

Katherine: Yeah, and just all of it packaged together when you, and when you put sex sexual abuse itself, and you, and you realize that sexual abuse itself is really not about sex, it is about power, and you, and you see the power dynamic happening in these debates, and like, it's about who's going to get it. To be in charge, basically and, and then you add that in with this dynamic of sexual abuse happening and like less about just [00:10:00] urges that need to be fulfilled, but more about like who gets to be in charge and who gets to have a say and who gets to decide.

It makes so much more sense through that lens than just like. Sex addiction which is what it sometimes gets boiled down to, but it's, but that's, it's way more than that one. It's something this rampant. And so I see the connection. And it's, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty clear to me. But I would love to hear So you taught a class and what was the class called?

Can you confirm the name of

Marie: that? Sure. Yeah. The class was called the abuse crisis in modern Christianity.

Katherine: Okay. And what led you to teaching that class? And then what were, what were the, the, what was the process of getting that class to

Marie: be taught? Yeah, yeah, no, and it's maybe my favorite class I've ever taught, so I just want to say that at the outset, which sounds strange [00:11:00] because it was also the most painful class I've ever taught, the most difficult class I've ever taught.

You know, you all, this sort of Me Too, Church Too movement that's been so extraordinarily important over the last, seven or eight, 10 years, again, going longer than that, even, but really these this past decade. I have so many undergraduate students who have come to me with stories of sexual assault or sexual abuse, and I realize it's something that college students are grappling with.

All the time. But there are, at least in the institutions where I've taught, there are almost no classes, you know, that address that it's it's sort of we're expecting our student life personnel and our R. A. S. And people who aren't even trained in some cases to kind of be the ones to manage. sex on campus or the sexual lives of our students.

And so, and as I was doing the research on clergy sexual [00:12:00] abuse and just realizing how rampant some of this has long been and still is, it felt like something that I thought students would take a real interest in. So I taught the course, I put it on the books for fall of 2022. I limited it at first to 15 students and I immediately, when registration opened, it immediately filled up and I had.

double that number of students on the wait list. And so I wound up with about

30 students that, that were there off all undergrad, except for one graduate student. And that was, that was Megan.

Katherine: And then and so you didn't have any trouble like hot, like saying, Hey, I want to offer this class. Was that something that you did you have any hurdles with the institution offering the class?

Marie: Well, that's that's a very good question. You're the first person to ask me that. As it happened, I was at the time the director of the Danforth Center on Religion and Politics, which is our unit. And [00:13:00] so I was able to just offer the class and it really didn't go through any kind of

Katherine: formal approach.

I could do whatever I want.

Marie: if I teach the course again, which I definitely plan on doing, it's possible that I would get some pushback. But the course really it was, it got very high course evaluations. I think the students were saying, these are conversations we all need to be having, and we're so thankful to be having it.

So I think I would be able to make the argument that this is an important course

Katherine: to keep on the books. Absolutely. And then you had, I know that Megan had mentioned I think like a former nun and like a former prosecutor that you had in. Was it more of a like a, a workshop style, lecture style, or was it more like you teaching and then you would occasionally have people come in?

Marie: Yeah. Well, the course met twice a week for an hour and 20 minutes, and I did very little lecturing. I mean, I would set out the context, you know, for a short period [00:14:00] at the beginning. But as you say, I brought in a lot of experts. I brought in lawyer, a lawyer who has prosecuted these cases and worked a lot with sexual abuse survivors.

I brought in Catholic survivors. I brought in a Catholic survivor who is now working for the Catholic church on prevention programs. You know, and has very much considers himself a devout Catholic still archivist, just a whole range of different types of people. We talked to journalists. I just wanted them to really see Things from a wide range of perspectives.

I will say that when I started the course, most of my research until then had focused on the Catholic Church. So it was maybe overly focused on Catholicism. And I wish I had had time to do more. with evangelicals, with Mormons their orthodox Jewish cases and coverups of sexual abuse. Muslim communities in [00:15:00] the U.

S. have grappled with this. So, you know, it's almost an overwhelming amount of material and WashU is a very multicultural, multi religious university. So, you know, I think covering these power dynamics, as you say, this is not just about sex, it's really about power and gender. Covering these across different religious traditions, I think is a really important,

Katherine: you know, thing to do.

Absolutely. And I still think that the Catholic church is the most well known. I was at a, I was at a class. Sunday night and I had your book with me to just like read while when there was like not stuff going on or while I was like waiting for people and and somebody was like, Oh, what's, what's that book about?

And so I like, I talked a little bit about the book and then said, I was interviewing someone who taught a class and abuse in the church. And they were like, Oh, like the Catholic church. And I was like, well, I was like actually like I focus on like the evangelical church. And the person that I was talking to you was actually someone who like attends.

Church [00:16:00] and and so it was almost like they just like had no idea that that, but that was like happening within the actual like regular everyday evangelical churches, I think a lot of evangelicals will still try to like, think, oh, that's a Catholic church problem and that happened over there in the Catholic Church, when it is.

very rampant in the evangelical church across every denomination. Like I haven't, I have not met or encountered the denomination yet. That was like, Oh no, we're good. We don't have that. That doesn't, that doesn't happen. And so I'm really, really grateful that you were teaching that class and just like thinking of the students that got to be in there and be a part of it.

And I got to have that conversation. I'm just like. Woo, would I, would I love, you know, I went to seminary and I'm like for grad school and I'm like, would I have loved to have a class like that in seminary? Yes, but they're not going to have that kind of class in seminary. Like critiquing the church that they're like creating ministers for.

[00:17:00] And, and someone asked me that the other day of like, did you ever have a class on like abuse in the church? And did anyone ever talk about like clergy abuse or spiritual abuse or anything in seminary? I was like, no. It was like it did not exist. It was like that didn't happen at all.

Marie: Well, I think, I think you're absolutely right.

I am hopeful. I feel like in a lot of the conversations that I'm having now, and I, you know, I'm doing interviews with survivors, but also with. Pastors with people working for the church, developing curricula and training programs, you know, for pastors in seminary. I mean, I actually feel some hope that there's so much energy around bringing some of that knowledge into the seminary classroom requiring.

No, in some way, either at the local church level or at seminary. Now it's difficult because as you know, church autonomy is a hugely important principle for groups like Baptists [00:18:00] and other, a lot of other evangelical groups. And so requiring a church. To have a training or requiring certain courses, even in seminary is it's it's hard.

And I think a lot of these denominations right now are debating this issue. But still, I think people realize more and more. I mean, the Southern Davis Convention has had Terrible PR over the last several years around its own cover ups of sexual abuse. It's starting to look as bad as the Catholic Church's cover up, right?

And so I think Southern Baptist leaders I've talked to, they know they've got to do something. And not just for optics, they've really got to do something, you know big to, to bring knowledge to this issue. So I am hopeful that some of that, what you didn't have in seminary You know, the next generation is going to have some version of

Katherine: it, at least.

Absolutely. Yeah. Cause I just, I mean, you can't ignore it at this point. It's, it's everywhere. It is everywhere. What was the response? [00:19:00] So you said that you got a really good response from your students in terms of just like evaluations at the end. What was some of like the personal response of students within the class?

Marie: Yeah, and I want to say, you know, I gave a lot of trigger warnings at the outset. In the course description, I said, if this is a personal issue for you, Really think hard before you take this class, but come talk to me and I can help you find resources if you want to find resources, but I warned people we're going to read graphic, you know, accounts of sexual abuse.

It's hard, even for those of us who are not survivors and I do not consider myself a survivor. It's still it's grueling. It's wrenching it. Keeps you up at night when you read the stuff. So I, I really warned students and I warned them on the first day of class and, and all of that nonetheless, you know, kind of midway through, I knew that I had three or four students who were struggling they [00:20:00] were not getting their work in, you know, I reached out to them and they admitted to me, like this was bringing stuff up for them.

So I found myself just saying, don't worry about deadlines. Like take care of yourself, you know, and I told students in class if you need to take a break when we're in class, you know, I've never said this in any other class, but I'm going to tell you now you can walk out and walk around and get a drink of water and come back when you can.

And I'm not going to penalize you for that. I, you know, your mental health. is most important here and come talk to me. So students expressed appreciation, you know, in their evaluations that I had been flexible about that as I think anyone should be. One suggestion they did have for me about changing in the future is that my very first minister probably should have been a counselor, probably should have been someone who could come in and talk about trauma and not just the trauma that abuse survivors that we're reading about have suffered, but trauma that you might feel.

You know, absorbing [00:21:00] these stories. And so I take that to heart. And I think when I teach the class again, I teach the class again that I'm going to do that first and make sure that I've got better supports set up for students. If, if the, the sort of secondary trauma or tertiary trauma of reading and absorbing all of this gets

Katherine: to be too much.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I can imagine that that would be, that would be. A great idea. To start it out that way. What were some of the people that you brought in, was there someone that like really stood out to you that a story that they told really resonated with you?

 

Marie: Yeah. Well, you know, they, they all stand out for me, but I'll just tell a couple of stories that I think the students found particularly meaningful. And I should say again, to go back to the personal and the student said, it wasn't just hard for them. You know, they loved the class.

They loved getting to think about this and process this. And I think they all. felt that this would really shape them going forward. Help [00:22:00] them be better friends and, and helpers of other people who've gone through trauma. You know, I think for a lot of us who aren't survivors, we don't realize how deep the trauma goes until you read and learn.

You've got to be educated about that. And I think these guests really helped do that. So I had guests two of the guests have been. Leaders in an organization called snap the survivors network of those abused by priests, which was founded primarily as a Catholic organization for Catholic survivors of clergy abuse, and they really went back into first kind of realizing that the abuse that they had experienced, trying to tell going to church authorities and having in their cases door slammed against them over and over again.

And that the trauma of that was worse than the original sexual abuse itself. Right. I'm sure you hear this over and over again. Very

Katherine: common. Very common. [00:23:00]

Marie: And I think for students to hear their story, but also, you know, they helped create SNAP. They've been public spokespeople across the country. They have helped so many people, so many victims.

And, you know, I think educated so many of us who are not victims. about this, that the students found them really inspiring. That was, that was really great. And David Clossie, who was the longtime leader of the SNAP, I'm just lucky because he lives here in St. Louis. And so he was able to visit our class in person along with Barb Doris who was also a SNAP leader, but he's a very emotional person still.

And he cries a lot and he'll tell you that. So he'll tell stories and he is, his emotions are right there. But he has also processed it. He has sort of come out on top of it and he's just a really inspiring figure. So students really loved hearing from him. Another standout, I'll just mention just one more.

We had a local lawyer and I won't mention her [00:24:00] name because she's really had a tough time. She has worked on a lot of different clergy, sexual abuse cases in the states of Illinois and Missouri primarily, and the laws here. are really, really tough. I would say they are stacked against victims in a lot of very concrete ways.

And she talked to us about that and really educated us about the law. And it got so bad for her that after 25, 30 years or so of practicing and working in that area, she just was burned out. She realized that she She could even be a suicide risk after all that she had to leave. And so she went and is now in a completely different field of law.

And the students were really, I think, moved by her. Some of my students want to go to law school. They want to work in that area, but they also recognized, you know, what she had to say about the toll that this can take on people. Who really try to find justice for survivors, because it's a lot [00:25:00] harder in some states than others, but it's hard everywhere.

Yeah.

Katherine: You know? Yeah. It's just, yeah. It really, the justice system doesn't work in favor of of someone coming forward and saying, this happened. Especially if there's, if there's not like, Capturing physical evidence of something like that is just not easy. If it if it even is possible. Yeah, that is, that is really really incredible.

Did you have anything else to say about the class and then I would love to just talk a little bit about book.

Marie: . No, I would just say that I would encourage if anybody is interested in thinking about teaching a class like this for undergrads, for grad students, seminary students, feel free to contact me, rmg567 at gmail.

com. And also I'll just say, I'm still, you know, interviewing survivors and people and would love to hear from folks, but I would just really encourage people to consider doing it. I think. Think it's a very, I, I'm so glad that I was able to do it, [00:26:00] and I will keep teaching that class until I can't teach anymore in retirement.

Katherine: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm really, really glad that there are dozens and dozens of more students who are going to get that class so I'm really glad to hear that. So switching to talking about this book, Moral Combat that I mentioned.

Earlier, the subtitle has sex divided American Christians and fractured American politics. And then I want to hear about a little more about the current book that you're working on as well. But my main question about this book is why sex? Why is sex such a big deal? What is it about sex that is making it this thing that divides people?

Marie: Catherine, that is the question. That is absolutely the question. That's really the question that sent me on the journey to write this. And I don't know if even now I have an answer to it. And really, I came to it thinking like, you know, sex is not a big [00:27:00] topic in the New Testament. It's really not compared to caring for the poor.

Caring for the poor, caring for people, helping the world, helping those in need, visiting the prisoner, feeding the hungry. Those are the themes, right? Those are the crucial, crucial themes. They're not the only themes, but that, to me, is so obviously the core that Jesus taught, that that should be the obsession.

And it's not. It's, it's not, it's not to say churches don't care about those things, of course they do. Catholic, Protestant, they all care about those things, but the thing that has seemed to be the obsession is around disciplining people for their sexual behavior. And that just struck me and, and it was true in my Southern Baptist upbringing.

I mean, that was just like, you know, a very strong theme in life generally. So I think I've always wondered. Why is something like [00:28:00] that so important? And you know, it's partly, I mean, our sexuality goes to the core of who we are, right? In every aspect of our lives. And if we wanna discipline people into being certain kinds of people, that's sort of a really key area.

You know, that, that the rules need to be sort of upheld and abided by. But to me, I honestly feel and I know a lot of folks would disagree with me on this, but I think a lot of Christian leaders have really gone way beyond anything, you know, biblical to create systems and structures and rules. That, that weren't really of, of great interest or concern to Jesus or to to any of these early teachers.

The early church fathers, you know, once Jesus is dead and Paul's dead and the kind of church is sort of coming into being in the early centuries, those leaders carried up, cared a lot about sex and disciplining the flesh and celibacy of [00:29:00] course, and, and thought the body was evil and thought sexuality was sort of this evil demonic force.

That's kind of where a lot of this influence comes from. If, if you, if you're more interested in going back to a biblical view of Christianity, I just think a lot has been invented, has been weaponized, has been interpreted a specific way to make sex more important than it, than it really ought to be for, for Christian for Christians generally.

Would

Katherine: you say if... If it's about power, let's just theorize that it's about power. Is there a possibility that sex is just an easy thing to control? And it's more just like open and, you know, like, you can hide it but like something like, attracted to the same sex and you want to have that kind of relationship or, or like that physical act of Being with someone and having [00:30:00] intercourse and like, like those are just like physical things and it's just like an easier thing to control and because it's more like out there could that be a reason why this is the thing if it's about power?

I don't know.

Marie: No, I think that's definitely part of it. And of course, sex is tied to reproduction, too, right? So it's not just about sexual behavior. It's about, you know, women bearing children and whose children will they be bearing. So, you know, we know that in cultures all across time and place that we've been able to study, sex is also very important in societies.

It's not just Christians who have made sex important. So I want to be clear about that. And part of that is because it is still, in many cases, about power. Men want to know that the children their wives are bearing are their children. Like, that's, that's one thing that anthropologists have, have a lot of times talked about.

Kinship relations and, you know, these kinds of things. So, sex has been important in part because it is... [00:31:00] deeply tied up in in reproduction. And, and I think our reproductive politics today, a lot of the, you know, the, the refusal to see that the way to reduce the abortion rate is to make contraception more available to prevent problem pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies.

But you don't see this huge push on the part of Christians, mostly. To provide free birth control and to make sure that there's sex education in the public schools of a certain kind, those issues often, you know, are still kind of, you know, forbidden and go with anti abortion politics. So I think the reproduction part is really a key part of this, but, but yes, I think it is also about power and.

restricting women's movements, restricting you know, this huge portion of their lives and, and, and making a certain model of marriage, you know, seem like the norm, seem like the God ordained norm. There's one norm for marriage and, and that's [00:32:00] it. And you know, really, I think there's had to be a lot of.

Inventiveness to make that seem like, you know, something that God so deeply cared about right,

Katherine: right, right. So would you say that aside from it being a sex thing, that it really is a gendered thing? I know you had mentioned that earlier and like more about dare we say it's control of women and it's not just about.

celibacy and like purity. It's really about the purity of women. Oh

Marie: yeah. I, I, I think the sources bear that out very, very clearly that the, you know, the, the sort of purity obsession has always been the purity of women. It's not to say men's purity hasn't been talked about and emphasized to a degree, but men have been far less punished for sex outside of marriage and sometimes not punished at all compared to the, the sort of discipline.

of women for, for, for that. So [00:33:00] I think it's very much about gender. The book, Moral Combat, you may remember, you know, I start the book with the suffrage movement, the women's suffrage movement, because that, to me, in some ways, is, is one of the, the kind of, of the core culture war issue we we almost think now so women got the right to vote in 1920, of course, and we kind of think of that as like, Okay, well, that happened and then everything you know, everybody accepted that.

But in fact, there was so much energy against allowing women to vote, you know, it was very close that the, you know, the states had to ratify, you know, this amendment Tennessee my home state was the final one to ratify it. I'm proud to say. My grandmother was a suffragist who, who marched for that, but it wasn't easy.

And the animus against women voting or women having something like equal rights, at least in that one sphere, you know, that animus didn't go away. And so I think a lot of what [00:34:00] you see in these later movements against birth control. Against homosexuality, against sex education, against reproductive rights.

The roots are there in the anti suffrage movement. So it's very much about women, about a desire for women to stay in their place. And let me say clearly, it's not just men who have wanted that. I don't write this as a men against women yeah.

just as many women are invested in that kind of patriarchal hierarchical system because they benefit from it in some way economically, socially. And so patriarchy, or I want to say misogyny, these are systems held up, I think equally by men and women in many, many cases. And and that's a crucial part of the story that we also sometimes I think tend to forget.

Katherine: Yeah. And I think it's a, it's harder. , I would just say from just like [00:35:00] purely from a personal personal perspective to see women fighting so hard for these things. And when I see women upholding it and defending it just it feels very different and it lands very different than like a man.

Upholding it and and defending it as well. But it's also true. It's also very, very true. And, and I, and I learned that very quickly working in and very patriarchal spaces that just because there was a woman in the room didn't make it safer and didn't necessarily mean that women were actually respected in that space.

, and yeah, absolutely. And then I don't remember the name of the person, but the person that was fighting for Susan's Someone maybe fighting for contraception and like the main argument was that it was gonna allow women to be loose and, and have sex with anyone they wanted. And, and she was just like, give us a, give us a break.

Maybe we just like, just want to have freedom. Maybe that, [00:36:00] maybe that's what it, maybe it has nothing to do with promiscuity and just like, just like that being the argument, like, and that is. It's still the argument and that's why I like the church isn't, you know, pushing contraception and making contraception available as a, as a potential solution to mitigating abortion is because it's, it's that same thing, like present day, that same argument is just going to give them license.

Yet we're not talking about that for men, like men who don't have to most of the time. deal with a fear of getting pregnant. Like that's not something that men have to carry. So we're not worried about them. We're not worried about it in that, in that context. And so, oh my gosh, there's so many, so many things.

Is there anything else you want to say about that? And then I'd, I'd love to hear about your, your latest that you're working on now.

Marie: Sure. I think you're right. I mean, just. stress. I think what [00:37:00] you're saying is we're still having the same debates that we were having in the 1920s.

It's a maybe a modernized version of it. But I do think our contemporary debates over abortion and and even to some degree, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, you know, I write about Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas and also about Paula Jones and Bill Clinton, the kind of sexual harassment wars of the 1990s, some of which has been a little bit Thank forgotten.

Those were really critical to because it was about how are women treated in the workplace and what is okay and what is not okay. And it's shocking to think what we used to tolerate. You know what? I mean, my mother, who's now in her eighties, she'll tell me what she tolerated as a secretary, you know, in the 19 sixties and seventies and in the church.

Well, yes, in the church and outside the church, both the kind of soft sexism that we all accepted. Not so soft sometimes. So anyway, I would just say that I do think we learn a lot from history [00:38:00] and that reading up on these earlier debates, I think really sheds important light. On the kinds of arguments that we're still having now, both within the church and within our larger culture.

Yeah,

Katherine: and then just like the context of history about just like history just like repeats itself and then repeats itself and repeats itself and, and it's typically about one group of people or one set of people wanting to be in charge, and in America, it's about like the religious right. It seems wielding Christianity and this war for morality as the way to have power and be in charge and just even just thinking about like very recent election and political figures who, who didn't give a shit about, actual Christianity.

They just got people. You know, whipped up into a frenzy and made them fearful of, , the trans, the trans [00:39:00] agenda, the figurative trans agenda. And before that it was the gay agenda, and then the feminists, and the feminists are after your children, and and then, and then now, like, making abortion the thing and it's about, like, saving children, but it's not about saving children, it's about this, like, control thing and so that to me is, I mean, just intersects with my work, and is, is pretty scary to me that this, And there was kind of just this out of body experience a little bit just like reading the book and thinking about that and then I'll have those moments at times of like, this was the sect, and I came from a very fundamentalist world that was, was very militant in fighting abortion and getting, you know, Christian people that they claimed were Christians into politics and fighting, against like sex, sex education in school because it would just give people license to promiscuity.

They were very, very militant and it's just a very out of body experience to think like that was a sect that I used to be a part of. And I believed they were good people, and [00:40:00] some of them are very good people and, and that the outside world was bad, like those, those bad people that are pro abortion or pro, pro same sex marriage, and to think just like how militant it was.

Now, like looking back on it and just like how just active it was and genuinely good people within it. Absolutely. 100 percent at the same time, people who are just wielding this for power and, and wanting to like claim all of this power in the name of Jesus. And it's, it's scary. It's, it's real.

Marie: I would just say I, yeah, that is, that's it's so true. I, I see it as a true tragedy that Christianity has been so weaponized in this country and elsewhere, not just in the U. S. And all the time and energy and money that has gone into some issues at the [00:41:00] expense to, in my mind.

Of the poor and the suffering and other, you know, really critical issues and how blase we are about economic inequality in this country and, and the state of the poor and suffering of many kinds. To me, it's a tragedy, you know that that we allowed ourselves to get so hung up on particular issues, and have just been almost blinded.

To what I see is really the core message,

Katherine: In the Bible. How does that. Message tie in with what you're working on right now.

Marie: Yeah. Well, it's you know So now this is a hard it's a it's an even more grueling Project as you can imagine because a lot of my sources now are interviews And I really spent a few years now and i'm really in the thick of it now that i'm on leave Interviewing, you know, survivors mostly, but also family members, pastors, you know, people, as I said earlier, just like [00:42:00] my class, different visitors coming from different places, but the vast majority are survivors, survivors of childhood sexual abuse, of abuse when they were teenagers, and also adults, you know, adults, largely women I've interviewed so far, but of course there are men too, you know, who have been abused as men sexually abused.

And abuse happens everywhere. You know, abuse happens absolutely everywhere. The church is not, you know, the only place it happens. But cover ups feel different in different spaces, I think. And the, the degree of the cover up in the church, Is so disillusioning for so many people, the spiritual abuse, the spiritual damage that that has caused people in many ways.

That's sort of the big takeaway for me right now is just how profoundly damaging. Sexual abuse is for people when they are not believed, when they are not treated with love and care. [00:43:00] And, when they are prevented from seeking justice, it's crazy making. I mean, people can just go absolutely crazy.

And the degree, you know, the levels of substance abuse and all kinds of. You know, self destructive behaviors that emerge from that is just stunning. And, we've learned a lot about this since 2002. And that 2002 is an important year because that was when the Boston Globe broke the big stories, the early stories about abuse in the Catholic Church in the, in the archdiocese of Boston.

And, you know, that kind of began this trajectory of attention to the abuse crisis, at least within the Catholic Church, and then more recently in Protestant groups, too. But I think we still have no idea the scope, the scale, the damage that has been done and is still being done because of the cover ups, because of bullying by pastors who refuse to acknowledge this problem [00:44:00] and women who enabled them pastors wives or, or church staff or others who just don't want to believe this is true.

And so really, enable abusive environments to thrive. It's a hard subject. And, you know, I want to write a book people want to read. So I've got to find a way to be, you know, I want to say Here's what we do, like here's where hope is because otherwise who wants to read a book that's such a downer? But I think we all need to be better educated about the realities out there so that we can be equipped to know what to do about them.

Katherine: Mm hmm. Is there any Distinction made or is this part of the scope of the book where you're outlining just the difference between someone who experiences that sexual abuse and cover up within a spiritual context versus. Or, you know, Hollywood, is there a distinction made at all?

Marie: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of the guests who came to my class, we asked them this and I asked [00:45:00] survivors this, I think so because so let me separate out Catholics and Protestants here because one, one big difference between, I think what Catholics are taught about priests and what Protestants are taught about ministers is the sort of stature of the priest.

So traditionally Catholics were really taught that priests. It's were of a higher order, almost a human being, they, they had a sacramental status closer to God. They were the closest thing that anyone was going to get to God. And the kind of deference that that created is part of why children felt they couldn't tell if a priest abused them, because it was, this was God.

And I think the damage for them, it was as if God Had done the abuse and that's very hard to get over and I've heard this from some Protestants, too I think evangelicals at least for me don't have quite the same, you know, the the pastor is still a human being He's perhaps been called, he's [00:46:00] got a calling.

And so there's still, you know, a lot of deference given to him. But I thought when I started this project, okay, there's a difference in how pastors are viewed. But I am coming to realize that in a lot of these evangelical churches, It's pretty close to the same as the Catholics were taught that pastor.

He's on a higher level And what he says, people believe there's been a lot of abuse of women working for churches. You probably know if I had a lesson for listeners right now, I would say if any pastor comes to you And asks you to come work for his church A red flag up in your mind because he, if, if the pastor needs a new church staff, they need to open the search.

They need to go through HR. They need to have a whole process like companies have, like universities have not, you are being targeted. I think in many, many cases, if someone comes to you and says, Hey, you know, you're doing a great job in the church. Come work for me. I have heard so many [00:47:00] stories from women now.

That's where it starts. Or, or maybe she was already being grouped, you know, she's come to the pastor for counseling, she's having difficulty in her marriage or some kind of difficulty with her children. And just, there's a certain kind of pastor who will target the vulnerable in that way.

Now, let me say clearly the vast majority of pastors are not abusers, I definitely believe that. But. There, there are a lot more than I think most of us are aware of people or maybe that because once they reach that position of power, they become sort of convinced of their own authority in a way and they become abusive.

I don't know the psychology of it. I don't know how all that works. But I think that's really critically important for people to, to recognize.

Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah, and I would say like maybe the distinction between like the Catholicism, the elevation of a priest is it's elevated institutionally, whereas, at least what I have seen [00:48:00] when it's a pastor in that place they've sort of put themselves there, and it's not necessarily.

Institutionally across the board, that's what the institution is pointing people towards, but they have managed to get into that position and created that for themselves.

Marie: That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that. And I think that's a very good point, but the ones who are best at it, they persuade everyone in the congregation that they deserve to be in that place.

Right. But you're right. It's the kind of, the, the charismatic leader, you know, the Ravi Zacharias or, you know, at the local level, whatever, you know, person that is. But you're right. They managed to kind of accrue that charisma and that sense of leadership themselves.

Katherine: Yeah, and maybe the institution comes after in terms of picking it up and not addressing it and not feeding into it.

Chicken or egg. I don't know which comes first. Well, this has been really great and I'm just, I feel like there's so much more to talk about, [00:49:00] but I will wrap us up there. Is there anything else that you wanted to share as we Wrap up the interview part.

Marie: No, I would only ask if anyone listening is interested in talking to me.

I really am. I am trying to interview as many people as I can survivors, but also people who want to work for reform in the church and don't know how family members. friends of people that they worry are being abused. Counselors, anyone, if you are interested in speaking with me, my email is open. R. M. G.

567 at gmail dot com. And I would welcome correspondence with people. I am willing for anyone who wants to be anonymous, to be anonymous. I'm keeping confidentiality from people. A lot of people have very good reason to be confidential. They have children. Sometimes an abuser is, is someone's spouse or ex spouse, and they really don't want their children to know, right?

There's all kinds of reasons. And I'm sensitive to that and we want to protect anyone and not [00:50:00] re traumatize them. But yes, I welcome anyone to contact me who would be

Katherine: interested and your timeline for. When they hear this episode versus when your book is coming out. So timing, when is, when are you hoping to finish?

Marie: Well, I'm a scholar, not a journalist and scholarship is slow. So this book is going to be, you know, a few years in the making realistically. So it's not like I've got a deadline, you know, of the end of October or something, I I'm on leave all of this year, the 2023, 2024, I could. Here and

Katherine: anytime. All right, great.

And I will put that information in the show notes so people can easily access and thank you so much for your time and all of the work that you're doing.

Marie: Thank you, Catherine, for all the work you do. Yeah, I love your work and you keep at it.

Katherine: Thank you.

Thank you so much.

 Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is [00:51:00] from the band Green Ashes.

 I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

S5:E5 - The Stigmatized Single Person (And How to Thrive Anyway) with Katherine Spearing

Katherine Spearing

Brian Lee, from Through Cohort and Broken to Beloved Summit interviews Tears of Eden’s Founder Katherine Spearing about the Church’s harmful teachings on marriage that can result in very real trauma—for single and married people.

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript (Unedited for Typos and Misspellings)

Brian: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome to our session. I'm here with Katherine Spearing. Katherine is the founder of Tears of Eden, a non profit supporting survivors of spiritual abuse, and the host of Tears affiliate podcast Uncertain. She also hosts the podcast Trauma and Pop Culture, and is a certified trauma recovery coach, working primarily with clients who have survived cults, High control environments, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse.

She also provides specialized trauma informed career coaching, as folks with trauma often need extra support for interviewing and networking, which I can attest to. Catherine is the author of a historical romantic comedy, which we talked about last year, Hartford's, a novel that challenges gender roles in a patriarchal society that will appeal to fans of Jane Austen.

And she's been a guest on a number of podcasts. including indoctrination, and that's so effed up. She's the author of several non fiction articles and writes regularly at katherinespearing. com and tearsofeden. org. Welcome back, welcome back. [00:01:00] Very excited,

Katherine: very excited. Me too.

Brian: So we're here to talk today about being single within the context of faith communities, which is a big I don't know anywhere else that I really hear about this talked about, so I'm excited to dive into it.

What is it like for a single person within these communities?

Katherine: Right, yeah, and I think on the subject of it not being talked about very much, I definitely looked, obviously, that's who I am. So I have looked for books on this particular topic, and they all tend to have this, like, this like, consolation prize flair to it.

Like You're a single, but you didn't want this. So here's some tips for being happy despite the situation that you find yourself in as if it's like. So so sad. And so haven't haven't read a lot where I was just like, Oh, like I'm empowered. I'm inspired. I'm [00:02:00] encouraged very, very rarely. And then also just within this topic that I'm very, I'm very passionate about just living a thriving life wherever you are and being very present wherever you are, no matter.

Single or not, and I think 1 of the things that I have discovered through just the work that I do with religious trauma and spiritual abuse survivors is that to say, hey, like, it's, you know, really important to live a thriving life here. Here are tools to live a thriving life to then. Ignore the systemic issues that then make it difficult to have a thriving life.

It's kind of, it's just half of the story. And so there's a lot of. Messaging towards singles of just like be content and be happy within faith communities without acknowledging the things that then make it difficult to be happy. And one example is [00:03:00] I learned very, very young that it was okay for me to be single, but it was okay for me to be single only.

If I was unhappy about being single and only I was actively seeking to change that status and at the same time be happy being single and so rejoice in this lot that God has given you, but then also actively seek to change it and actively. Date and actively ask for prayer for your future husband. So, it's very, very stark cognitive dissonance happening within these communities.

I also, my, my vocation was ministry and the perspective that I'm coming from for this conversation is. The even growing up in the evangelical church and being in that evangelical perspective, also choosing a vocation of ministry and and being in that for almost a decade. [00:04:00] And and so I think I experienced some of this a little bit more acutely because.

I was in ministry and, and happened to be in denominations that were just much more male friendly. And so having being a woman and then also being a single woman some of the stuff I experienced a little bit more acutely. So that's, that's the example that I'm, the perspective that I'm coming from and, and then we'll occasionally use just some stories and examples from clients and, and friends of mine who've also experienced this as well.

And. But, yeah, so 1st of full time vocational ministry experience was on the mission field in Mexico. I'm 28 years old. I am the only single woman on this fairly large missions team. I went down. To help plant a church that was like my specific reason for going and the, there was a [00:05:00] headquarters office that I went to every day as part of my work and and, and pretty much right away things like they would have a team meeting for.

The church plant, and I was not invited and I, I, I was actively a part of the missions team and would like, go to the office and work in the mission field. All the other women missionaries were. worked at home and were, you know, took care of their children and took care of their homes. They were not actively coming into the offices.

They were invited to this missions team. And so right off the bat, I was like different here. Exactly. Just instantly. And in Mexico, the. The that's hierarchy of, of marriage and marital status is even more extreme, I would say, than [00:06:00] than in the, like the South, which is also pretty extreme and.

And yet nobody was like, Hmm, it's weird that you're not there. It was like, there was no, and I decided not to make an issue about it, that particular thing. But I was still expected to show up, you know, to church an hour early and help set up and put the coffee on. So I was still a part of this team and help lead the Bible studies and all that sort of stuff, but not part of the planning, not offered a seat at the table.

And, and it wasn't a gender thing. It was. The only thing I can think of. A singleness thing. I'm not married. And I think that that was something that I experienced constantly throughout my faith community experience was like, we not a, there's something wrong with you so much, but as a, but a, we don't know what to do with you.

Like, we don't know [00:07:00] what category to put you in. Another example was, I was volunteering. Very actively, this is before I went to Mexico in the youth ministry, and I was very, very actively involved in the youth ministry again, like late 20s, considering youth ministry as a potential avenue for ministry.

If I did go into full time ministry, and the church that I attended did not have like, singles groups and young marrieds and it was just kind of all adult classes and they were topical, which I think is great and. There was a parenting class, and I thought I'm gonna work. I'm working with youth. 50 percent of that is working with parents and.

And then it was targeting like young marriage. Who are my peers? Like some of them are the same age as me. Mm-Hmm. . Some of them are a little bit older, some of them are a little younger. And so it made perfect sense to me that I would go [00:08:00] to this class, which I did, and a week class, I had friends who were leading this class.

A married couple that was leading the class, leading the class. And so I knew them and then there was an older couple in the class who had already raised their children and they were there because they wanted to connect to younger families. And they were the only people that talked to me, nobody else talked to me.

And it was so. obvious that as soon as there would be like a break or the class would end they would like huddle like so fast it was like like very very quickly just just like ah we don't don't leave us alone yeah with that one we don't

Brian: we don't know what to do with her

Katherine: we don't know what to do with her and so i'll always feeling that Experience and, and many years later, I worked in [00:09:00] California, which is a very different culture and and I had a very good experience as a single person in California.

And I started to wonder after a few years being there, did I make that up? Was that my imagination? Like, like, maybe it wasn't as bad. Maybe it was my insecurity. Like, maybe, you know, I, I felt weird. And so that's why I thought these people were ignoring me or whatever. And then I was in in LA during the biggest part of COVID.

So didn't really interact with many people and thought, Oh, maybe I just made it up. Maybe if I go into the spaces and I'm just like super confident, like, they'll be fine. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought. And, and yet, even now, when I go into certain communities, and I would say probably the biggest one right now is as extended family that is in the South.

And it is a much more just like, Nuclear family focused. [00:10:00] Everything is focused on that and you get married and you have kids and then you raise the kids and they go to college and then they get married and they have kids and then they raise their kids and their kids go to college and then they get married and they have kids and that's just a cycle and rinse and repeat and I would go, go to, go to events, go to weddings, go to funerals, be around this, this community of people and It, I was like, it's still here.

It's, it's still real. And, and after like three hours of talking about feeding schedules and potty training, I'm sitting there like, okay, I have a pretty cool life. A lot of cities. I started this nonprofit. I have a book out. I have a podcast. Like I'm a pretty interesting person. No questions, zero interest in my life outside of how much I can engage with their life.

And so it's very, it was [00:11:00] very, it's very, very obvious in those. In certain contexts that there's this otherness and this marginalization and just like you're different and rather in engaging with that difference, we're just going to draw a distance and at best you're ignored at worst, they're actively trying to get you to change who you are and change your marital status and try to figure out what's wrong with you that you're not married.

Right, that is how that is.

Brian: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. And I'm, I'm sorry that happened to you and that's not at all alienating. Right? My goodness. Well, and I remember working at a church as a young single man. And I was the worship leader at the time, but it was just. It is a lot of that alienating feeling of, well, who can we hook you up with?

When are you going to [00:12:00] get married? Let's pray for your future wife. And all these things, it's like, and there was a big part of me that wanted to get married, but there was also a big part of me. It's like, but this is kind of, I'm fine with this right now. This is the season of life I'm in. And why is there always this need to rush?

People through these stages of life that may not be for them at all, because even once you're married, then it's the whole train of, oh, well, when are you going to have kids? And then once you have another one, and then it's like, some people are just never satisfied, right? There's this, there's this weird hierarchy of.

Having arrived as a human and it's, I can't even imagine cause I'm not one, but I, it's so much worse for women because not only do you have to get married, but then once you are someday a wife, if you don't become a mother, then you're not really a whole woman and all these other things that I've heard that are just so harmful in these faith communities.

Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then the difference, there is a different flavor, but I think between like a male [00:13:00] experience and a female experience. And I remember going to seminary and, and the church planting, there's like a church planting portion of the seminary that I went to and I loved church planting and I thought it was really cool.

Well, I was told. You know, you'd be a really good church planter if you were a man. The men were told, don't church plant unless you're married. Like, don't do that. Like, that's, I would not advise doing that. Like, you can't do it unless you're bound to another person or you have a wife to do 50 percent of your free labor.

So the pressure, like you're not fully Incubated yet.

Brian: Yeah, unlike, you know, Paul or Jesus or so, you know, for all this stuff that's going on in the churches in different faith communities. Why does this stuff happening

Katherine: matter? I think the biggest reason why it matters is [00:14:00] it can result in very real trauma to, to constantly feel like you don't fit.

Yep. And constantly feel like You are not enough all by yourself. Mm-Hmm. . And that, that that can result in, you know, when you're, you know, supposed to, trying to embrace your life and, and be confident. And be secure and, and love who you are, where you are. And then you're surrounded by people who are looking at you like you're really strange or just like.

Saying things like, well, do you even want to get married or accusing you of being too picky or, or constantly receiving this message of you're not fully. You haven't fully arrived yet. You're not a full, complete human. And, and then as you mentioned, I think that this can have just like [00:15:00] implications for just like the wider community as well, of, of people getting married when they're not ready to get married and I, it happens.

I am so grateful and honored. That enough people have shared with me that they got married too soon. And enough people have shared with me that the reason they got married was because they were dating someone who wanted to marry them and they were afraid someone else wasn't going to come along. And so they locked it down and, and enough people who have admitted that, which means there's probably a lot of more people who have never.

Admitted that because of how much pressure there is like a man saying, hey, you can't plan a church unless you're married. Okay. Let me just find someone to marry me. Oh, maybe in an ideal world. That would never happen. Well, it does happen. And, and there is so much [00:16:00] pressure to, and people end up in these relationships that are Not necessarily healthy because they haven't had a chance to differentiate.

And the messaging around marriage and the nuclear family can lead to a lot of enmeshment in marriage and, and people who aren't able to, to create individual identities because they're so wrapped up in, in that, in that partnership for women. It results in a lot of them just surrendering their power and surrendering their agency the minute that they're in that relationship.

And, and I have friends now who are in their forties and fifties who are learning about their, themselves and their identity as an individual for the very first time, because they just got married so young, they never had an opportunity to figure out who they were and what they really [00:17:00] liked and. I have friends who have told me, and this makes me very sad, that their predominant emotion once they got married Wasn't joy and wasn't excitement.

It was relief. That makes me so sad that it's like, it's over like, so, so sad. And speak so loudly of the amount of pressure and the, and the. Miseries to some extent of being single in these faith communities that isn't self inflicted. A lot of times parts of it. Sure. But, but a lot of it is, is the community itself of not not having.

And I have a dozen stories similar to the Mexico story of just like not having a seat at the table simply because well, part of its gender and part of it was marital status and and not being Treated as if I didn't have anything to [00:18:00] offer because, because I wasn't married. And if you are in those communities all the time, you have no other reference.

You'll start to believe it. It's really hard to not believe when you're getting that inundated with that messaging, that there's something wrong with me and I don't have anything to offer. Why? Why would I want to be at the church planting meeting? I'm not married. I don't have anything to offer that that type of experience.

And it's very, it doesn't just impact single people. I believe very firmly that this. This mentality impacts the wider faith community as well. And as you mentioned, just like, you know, you get married and then it's like when you're going to have kids and the same thing for child free people. Like, you're allowed to be child free, but only if you're actively seeking to change it.

Right? Yet also be content with your child freeness, but also be trying to change it. And then my sister, first baby. Baby wasn't [00:19:00] even barely out of the womb and people are asking her when her second child is coming. Yeah, when's the next one? When's the next one? It's like never enough, it's never enough, never enough, never

Brian: enough.

Yeah, man. It just speaks to how broken these systems are and how flawed the theology is of identity, of wholeness, like you're talking about, of, of, like you're saying, the whole individuation and differentiation piece. It's like, I, you know, you tell your, that story about all the things about Mexico and all these other places.

And it's like, and you know, joining these different small groups or Sunday school classes I think of that quote from Walt Whitman or Ted Lasso or whoever you want to say it's from about being curious, not judgmental, right? And so often people in these faith communities default to a position of judgment or assumption, [00:20:00] right?

Oh, this poor single person, they must be miserable. Let's adopt them and then try to find every eligible. Whatever, to pair them up with. Parade them, parade them across. Yeah. Well, and then by doing that, you turn them into a thing instead of a person, right? Because they become, you become their project, which never feels good.

Never. And then you, you add on the layer of what harm purity culture has done to the church through the 80s and 90s. And all these people, like you're saying, get married young out of a sense of relief to escape the trap of singleness. And then, or they just get married so they finally have sex. Which is awful because they've known nothing about it and weren't ready for it, right?

And then, you know, in the 80s and 90s, there was so much vitriol and defense against divorce. And nowadays, Christians are the exact same statistic as everyone else. It's so, so

Katherine: common. Yeah, and I mean, and that is one of the [00:21:00] ways that it impacts the wider community as well, is because there are so many divorced people, widowed people, they're single.

And, and they're back in that, you know, phase after being married. And it's again, like, what do we do with you? Yeah. Like. Let's find you someone else to marry, like, let's say the cycle starts again and, and it's not, it's not that, it's not a guarantee that marriage A will happen or B will last and, and, and that, and that ability, as you said, to have that curiosity.

A kind curiosity. Not a what's wrong with you, but a tell me about your life. Tell me how you feel about this. And, and giving, giving that space [00:22:00] for people to be different and willingness and that judgment tends to come from a place of fear. We, we fear the thing we don't understand. If someone gets married at 22.

And has never known a life of singleness, they're not going to know what it's like and so it's going to be very different. It's going to be an anomaly and it's so much, it's easier to just not engage and like, and it's safer. To not engage to some extent of just, you know, I'll let her talk to her people and I'll talk to my people and, and it's very sad to me because it's a very, it can be very isolating, I think, and, and very.

What's the word? Yeah, just like, just very kind of, kind of stagnant and, and [00:23:00] oppressive to, to surround ourselves with people who are just like us and in the same stage as us and can talk about all of the things that we talk about. And, and there it's, I think that it's challenging to grow when, when you are.

Surrounded by people who are just like you doing all of the things that you do and and how much more vibrant and colorful life is when we can engage with people who are different than us and single people are forced to do that. Because we're often alone or marginalized in these communities. And so we're constantly seeing things from the perspective of the married person, the people with the family, we're able to engage in those conversations about feedings and, and potty training because everyone's doing it [00:24:00] and, and it does take a little more effort from that parent who has, you From that world and, and look around and see there are other people out there and there are other, there are other stories in the world.

And I, I mean, I was raised in a very fundamentalist world that was very isolating and very much like feared the outside world and feared people who were different than us and didn't believe the same things that we believed. So it was not because of nurture. Unless it was rebellion, potentially that I love.

Encountering people who are different than me. Like I love encountering different cultures. I love encountering people who have, you know, jobs that I've never had different, different lifestyles, different cities, country. Like I just, I love engaging with people who are different and I [00:25:00] find it to be such a fulfilling experience to have so many people that are so different from me.

in my life. It's amazing. And I'm sad for extended family and in the South who cannot engage with conversation outside of their bubble. That makes me sad, you know, personally, but then also just like, you don't get to know me. Yeah.

Brian: Well, and you know, microcosms of. These echo chambers where this tiny little community's behaviors become normalized and then you view everyone else like you're saying as the outsider as the other and like, well, that's weird when really it's like, actually, it's your little group that you can't see outside of right?

So, so how do we break out of that? Like, what can, what can be done?

Katherine: Right? Well, I would say just. Speaking to two different audiences and I would say for, I mean, I mean, really for anyone, but for [00:26:00] a single person, I would say, and I've had to do this, actively surround yourself with people who are for you and not for you, but They would prefer that something about you change specifically your marital status.

And, and, and they're not constantly trying to set you up or find someone for you. There's nothing wrong with that. And I, I mean, and setups happen within the single community too. Like I. A friend of mine the other day, like, showed me two people in a dating app who are in my community. And and I just, you know, gave her my opinion.

Like, this person, they are great, but I really don't think that you would enjoy them. But this person, the little that I know about them, I think that it could be a good fit. And we're not, like, hoarding all the single people. Like, I'm like, I know these two people aren't a good fit for me. They might be a good fit.

I've, you know, connect friends in other [00:27:00] cities. Like, Hey, so and so lives in your city. Y'all should get coffee.

Brian: Well, and I imagine the big difference is that it's invited, right? Instead of imposed.

Katherine: Yes. She showed me the people on her dating app. I'm like. Asked my opinion. 100%, 100 percent that the invitation has been given.

And it also within the context of actually knowing the person, not just, Hey, this person is single. Yes. That's good. Together. Yeah. You actually know what would be good for them. And, and so surrounding yourself with people who Campioning you excited for you excited for your life, and I, I have actively had to do that and have had to seek out people and fill my life with people who are on my team and cheering me on and there are some people in my life who still find it a little strange, you know, [00:28:00] my.

Marital status, but they're, they, they have kind of moved to being more of a, an acquaintance simply because of, of, of that particular part of it is that it's not, I'm not fully accepted in their eyes and they're not fully able to engage with my life right now. And so that might happen. And it's challenging, but it's also absolutely 100 percent worth it to be surrounded by people who are for you.

And then for just like the wider community, I think just cultivating, as you have already stated, curiosity and a interest and people who are different, and that will serve. across the board for any marginalized community of just being willing to engage and ask questions and not treat like a [00:29:00] project as you, as you mentioned, as someone that I need to fix or my token single friend.

Yay! I have one. Well, the

Brian: other thought I just had is like, or what I often see in churches or faith communities is that the single people get treated as free labor. Because they're single. So you must have all the free time in the world to go volunteer for this thing or take care of this thing. And it's like, can we also stop doing that, please?

Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't mention this at the top of the conversation, but in that same church planting experience in Mexico, usually when you start a church, first thing you need is a pastor. And then the next thing you need is a worship leader. And then the next thing you need is a children's minister.

And I saw it coming. I saw it coming. I was like, no, I was like, I drew, I was like, I don't care if I get fired. No . Yeah. I will not be in charge. Yep. Of

Brian: children's mission. Well, and I've heard horror stories from missionaries on the field who, [00:30:00] for their team meetings or staff meetings, same kind of a thing for the single people who were there as part of the team.

Fully part of the team. Mm-Hmm. don't get invited to meetings because they are expected to stay behind and babysit for all the married couples kids, it's like. What, you know, what is that

Katherine: I did during the team meeting? What is

Brian: that? Exactly. Yeah. And it's just, you know, and you know, you're a trauma recovery coach night.

I don't think either of us are actually therapists or counselors, but, you know, when I think of not just trauma, but complex trauma, like the CPTSD part, it's, it's when these little traumas are drip by drip happening over and over and over again, over an extended period of time. And so it makes sense why.

We get indoctrinated with these ideas or why it's so hard to break out of those kinds of systems or Find and surround ourselves with these people who are curious about us and for us and all those things who? Want a real identity? for our single friends [00:31:00] Or single people that we don't know that we want to become friends with.

And it's like, I just want to know who you are. I don't care that you're single or not single or a wife or not a mother yet, or any of these things, like it applies to pretty much every stage of life. If we would allow people to just be people and not projects. We would go a long way. I

Katherine: think. Absolutely.

Yeah. Just let what? Yeah. And that just simple curiosity of just letting someone be who they are. And, and maybe they will share that they really do want to get married and, and they are sad and hold space for them in their sadness as you would hold space for anyone grieving. Yeah. And, and not necessarily, Yeah.

Okay, let's fix this. Let's find someone for you. Like that's grief like any other kind of grief. Yeah. And, and let's let, let's grieve together rather than. Yeah. Seek to find [00:32:00] the thing that will take this pain away because it's, it's not going to take the pain away really. It's, there's going to be something else, you know, like we're never.

We're never, and I think I learned that recently from the the speaker at the retreat con for Tours de Vida in our first in person event. And she just, she talked about thriving and she gave us this, this grid of all these different like seasons of life and stages of life and your career and then your family and then your relationships and then your friends and then your church community and like all these different, you know, bubbles of our.

You know, acquaintances and, and spheres of our lives. And, and she was like, you're never going to be thriving in every single one. Yeah, and that doesn't mean you're not thriving. Yeah. Just to have a few that are not going well does not mean you're not thriving. And it was really, really helpful because I felt like I was always searching for the state of equilibrium and which [00:33:00] everything was going well.

All the time. We're never going to be in that place, whether we are married or single or otherwise. And so, so being willing to hold that space for someone wherever they are in that and not try to fix it just as we would for anything else. And not treat it like it's this other thing, like we don't, this disease to some extent.

So let's stay

Brian: away and yeah, well, and you briefly touched on it earlier, but the idea of singleness is not just about I've never been married before or been on a date or any of those things, but it's it's also people who have been divorced or widowed or whatever those things are. And it's like when we allow them to just be people.

And grieve with them in that process, if they are grieving, right? And then not jump to try to solve their problem of, Oh no, you're single and alone again. How do we set you up with someone else? It's like, no, that's not the answer. It's like, be curious, ask, like, Has anyone asked what they actually want? [00:34:00] Or are looking for?

Or are they perfectly happy being single? Or is it a married couple completely happy never having kids? Yes, whatever the situation is, right? And I think there's so much that can be said for Meeting people where they are and on allowing them to be where they are in the season that

Katherine: they're in. Yeah.

And then I think just to kind of wrap it up of in order to be willing to accept someone where we are, we, I think we have to acknowledge some of that theology that has been ingrained into us that dictates this mentality that marriage singleness and parenthood is more ideal than. Being trialed free and, and the people who have been told that they're selfish for not wanting children or you're not a full complete human being until you're married and joined to another person those, those messages are very damaging and, and that is where that trauma comes from.

So some of it's [00:35:00] just. It's cultural. I'm like just swimming in it and that's just the way it is. But some of it actually comes from really damaging messaging about deep things. And that might be something that people need to wrestle with before they can even get to that place. Of accepting someone who's different because if it's like, you're not just different.

There's actually something wrong with you and you're actually doing something wrong by not having kids or you're actually doing something wrong by getting divorced or, or, or something like that, then it's going to be hard to engage. So that might be something that folks just need to. Wrestle with and yeah, figure out what they

Brian: believe.

Yeah, that's really good as we wrap up you mentioned your retreat con. Would you tell us more about

Katherine: it? Woohoo. Yes. So tears of eden is As mentioned earlier is the non profit for survivors of spiritual abuse and from folks from the evangelical Community primarily. We had our [00:36:00] first in person event in October.

And one of the things that Tears of Eden does is we do provide resources to sort of name that experience. But we do seek to be trauma informed. And one of the things that is helpful for healing trauma is, is integration between our minds and our bodies and engaging our bodies in that healing process.

And so we had a speaker and she was. A phenomenal, wonderful person. And then and then we also had just very embodied workshops when normally you would go to, you know, maybe a small group and like, sit and listen again in a workshop all of these workshops are very active embodied workshops. We had yoga.

We had improv. We had dance. We had a story jam, which is this live storytelling event and that Opportunity for people to tell stories and have an audience engage with them. Just a very embodied event and it was so cool. It was so fun. It was I hope everyone who is a survivor gets [00:37:00] that experience of being in person.

With someone who's also had that experience. There's something extremely special about just like meeting someone and knowing instantly that they get it. It's just, there's nothing like it. It's, it's really, really cool. So yeah, everyone gets to do it

Brian: sometimes. I love it. Congratulations on getting to do that.

Yes, it was great. It was very exciting. Where can people find you or RetreatCon

Katherine: online? So my personal website is katherinespearing. com and my main social media presence is on Instagram at katherinespearing. And Tears of Eden is tearsofeden. org. We also have a podcast and the main social media presence for Tears of Eden is the Uncertain Podcast at, at Uncertain Podcast on Instagram as well.

So check it out.

Brian: Awesome. We'll provide the links for everyone down in the session notes. Catherine, thank you so much for participating again and helping move toward healing

Katherine: and [00:38:00] wholeness. Wonderful. Thanks for having me.

S5:E4 - Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month: Thriving After Spiritual Abuse - with Connie Baker

Katherine Spearing

New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other Side

Connie Baker, LPC author of Traumatized by Religious Abuse and a therapist who works with survivors of religious trauma, joins Uncertain to discuss what thriving might look like after Spiritual Abuse. This is a nuanced subject, intended to provide hope (not pressure!).

Thank you for joining us for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month in 2024!

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings

[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. It's Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month, and this is our last episode of January 2024. My guest today is someone who It has become very, very special to me. Her name is Connie Baker. She is a therapist. She has a book for survivors of religious abuse. And Connie was our very first guest speaker at our very first in person event.

Back in October, and it was phenomenal. She can speak to the survivor experience in such a meaningful way because she is one. And she's been doing this work long before I even heard of spiritual abuse.

She has so much knowledge and I trust her to address this subject of thriving after spiritual abuse with nuance and care because nobody wants to be pressured [00:01:00] into thriving when you're just trying to survive and that's not the point of this episode but this is a glimmer of hope for down the road that maybe someday maybe someday We will be here.

 Here is my conversation with Connie Baker.

Katherine: Hello, Connie. How are you?

Connie: Good. So fun to see you, Catherine. I'm so

Katherine: excited to see you again. For our listeners, Connie was our guest speaker, keynote speaker at the RetreatCon, which was Terzian's very first in person event in the fall. She was phenomenal. I loved every moment of her. Connie's talks, but then also just getting to hang out with this person.

So if you have a chance to buy her book and oh shoot, I'm totally blanking on the name of your book. What

Connie: is it? It's right, Traumatized by Religious Abuse. Yes. Say it one more time. Traumatized by Religious Abuse.

Katherine: Beautiful.

Wonderful. Amazing book. Very, very, very practical. A lot of folks [00:02:00] have named your book is just very practical for survivors. And one of the things that we invited Connie to do at the retreat con was speak about. Yeah. thriving after spiritual abuse, which I think so many of us are surviving. Maybe we're healing.

We don't really talk about like that moment when you get a chance to just kind of come out of that survival space and laugh. And have fun and see the sun and, and it seems impossible sometimes that we'll ever get to that place. Yes. But, but Connie, Connie is really great about making that realistic. Not, that's, that's what I think I loved about it.

It's not fluffy and silver linings. It's realistic and I learned so much from your talk. So I'm really excited to get to jump into that again. to just get us started and sort of lay a [00:03:00] foundation for discussing what it's like to thrive after spiritual abuse after we've been through this. Could you paint a picture for us of what the impact of spiritual abuse feels like?

Like, what does that look like to someone? Oh,

Connie: yes, yes, I can. Yes, I can. And before we go there, Catherine, I just want to say, I am so thrilled that that was the first retreat. Like, in other words, others are following. It was so, and I know you probably talked about this in follow up podcasts after the retreat, but it was powerful having all those humans.

And I think there was also extra power in it post, well, post late pandemic, whatever we're calling this thing for people to to. Humanly be in the same space and connect. I think, well, Terry, just remembering it, it just was so [00:04:00] powerful. And so I'm just thrilled that you are hosting. Cause we talked about this when I was there.

We both have hosted big events before, you know, in our life. And I know what it takes to put something like that on. What was there 25, 30 people somewhere in that range, you know, and, and to have that. And the spaces that you. Provided anyway, I just want everybody to go to second annual. Yes, everybody to thank you so much.

Yeah, no, I just I'm just reflecting thinking back just with you even, you know, yes, just being here with you. Remembering just the. Goodness. And all the things that happened there.

Katherine: Yeah, I, I've, I felt all of those things too. And just was just so thrilled at, I mean, I just like picture that weekend and it's like surrounded and like sunlight and warmth in my mind.

Like that's the image. It was just such a warm. Just, oh, [00:05:00] and then that whole idea of thriving after spiritual abuse, like we got to taste it, this can be real. This isn't fake. This isn't this isn't false positivity. This is genuine, you know, just joy, like an experience of joy.

And the fact that like, oh, after all, all of us have been through, you know, And in this room and we're laughing together. Like it was just like, Oh, we

Connie: laughed so much. Oh my gosh. And you brought a lot of that. You and your leadership team are just pretty damn funny. And we had a lot of fun with that. And so, yeah, I just wanted to say that when you're talking about that connection, because it really, it really was, I'm just like, no, y'all sign up for number two, second annual Be there.

Katherine: So be there for the second one. Absolutely.

Connie: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, the question he asked me, what is it? What is the impact of spiritual [00:06:00] abuse? Oh my goodness. I think, I think a lot. In fact, we talked about this at the retreat. I think a lot in life domains. I think it helps break down sometimes. Like what is What is happening to me?

Because it just feels like an avalanche. It feels like you are rolling down the mountain in an avalanche and you can't see what's up down, you know. So I guess I think about, you know, different domains of life spiritually. Oh, let's, let's take Let's take the explosion 1 right off the bat. It can not not have an impact spiritually.

And that doesn't mean that you're for sure going to walk away from the faith, although that absolutely could and sometimes should be what a person does. That's it. It's not just permission. It's like, no. You find your path. But there's a big [00:07:00] range of what that means, means, but there is no way there is not huge levels of damage, spiritually.

It's like existentially, let's take God out of the mix, even, if you're, it doesn't matter whether you say, Whoa, I'm not about this God thing anymore. You still have to rewrite meaning purpose. Life after death, the, the, the, what is a human being? I mean, you just gotta rewrite all that. It's just huge.

So there again, spiritually, it, it can be devastating. And often is. Often, for me I think. What am I in decade? I've done, I'm over three decades past my primary spiritual abuse and there's still times I go, okay, still rewriting a little bit of this.

Katherine: It went, it went deep.

Connie: Yes, it goes deep. So then I'm thinking the impact on the body.

Most people don't get out of it without sickness, or, or [00:08:00] injury, or, we're connected beings, so physically it can just smack ya. In so many ways, I'm not gonna elaborate, but just to help people think through what is the impact, you know? Then you've got the emotional, psychological, which most people go through.

first. And it's like, right, that's true.

Katherine: Yes. Yeah. I'm probably the one that makes most sense. Yes. But as you said, we're integrated and

Connie: it's going to affect our bodies and our spirits and our whatever we want to call it. So, so the trauma, I mean, you and I are therapists and those listeners who've heard, you know, you, you know, your stuff and Trauma affects our neurological system, our, you know, our brain, our body, our thought process, our emotions.

And so it's just, it just is so extensive and pervasive. I think is another good word. Then you get into the social realm. Yeah. What does it do to families? [00:09:00] Oh, . What does it do to friendships, to community, to parent child relationships, to marriages, to partnerships? I mean the social impact and community. Oh, how I was just telling client this, I think two days ago.

It was yesterday. We were talking about, she's like, I just, I'm trying to sort out how to get community. And I could tell by how she was talking about it, there was kind of this framework, like, I'm the only one. Why, why, why is this so hard for me? I'm sure other people have it together. There was kind of this underlying implication.

And I said, you just need to know something. Do you know, I have this conversation almost daily. Wow. With my clients. What? How? You're not the only one. No! Please! Rebuilding, especially if you've been raised in the church, [00:10:00] Rick, the, okay, we all know on this podcast. What the toxic streams that run through organized religion.

We're clear on that. But I'm telling you, for better and for worse, they do community like nobody else.

Katherine: Yeah, and that's just the reality of like how to find that type of organic community. Oh! Side of the church that that I think that's probably the biggest grief for me. And then for so many people How do I get that that's the part I miss the most

Connie: besides trauma recovery I would say community especially if we're talking about thriving when people are finally Starting to put their head up above A little bit and look around to see the devastation.

That's one of the first questions and it's one of the hardest. So if Those listeners If you guys are struggling to say, how do I do? Community you are not alone. It is [00:11:00] like one of the core themes after trauma recovery I would say it's number two of saying how do I get the social support and the community?

Resources that I used to have in a church because it is what Organized religion does for the positive. It, it provides consistent meeting places, a common worldview, and a common purpose you're working toward. And I feel like those three things are just in reflection over three decades of trying to sort all this through.

Those are the three things I've come down to. A lot of organizations have one or two of those, but the power is all three. And it, This consistent meeting time, again, the consistent meeting time, the common world, commonly held worldview, and doing something, making something together, you know, creating something together.

Oh my gosh, like, it's a powerhouse, I think in a very positive way. [00:12:00] We all know it can go very toxic and all that, but there's also we, we continue our, I think our souls continue to look for that when we say, I can't do that thing anymore or in that way. Even if you stay in an organized religion in a church, almost everybody I know says, Oh, my relationship with church is completely different.

Like it used to be everything. Okay. So we're getting all. Yeah. The community topic, the damage is so huge and then it can damage things like your finances. All can wipe out your finances to go through religious abuse or to be religious abuse or either one and then you've got career. It can even shift career paths for people.

And so my hand, yes, right. Exactly. My career. Yeah. Oh, totally. I would never have gone into this field without without my abuse. Not never, but highly unlikely. Honestly. So, so all these different domains of [00:13:00] life, it can. It can determine where you live, you could make up and have to have a move. So I just want to just to be able to bring all that in and say, you know, the impact is monumental.

Right.

Katherine: And when you said at the beginning, just like addressing that spiritual part, I think that for even folks who have experienced it we'll kind of do this like compartmentalizing thing of like, it's just, I just need to figure out that part and like what I believe now. And, and then maybe, or even compartmentalizing it and like, okay, I am done with God and I'm done with church and I'm moving on.

But then not recognize all the other places that that is impacting and try to address that one compartment of spirituality. And so I'm very thankful to you for pointing out all of the ways that this can impact us and that we can't just compartmentalize and just say the right [00:14:00] spiritual thing.

Connie: Yeah, we can't and we can't compartmentalize any of them. Even even when you talk about mental. You know, you and I are therapists. When we talk about the mental emotional realm, you can't compartmentalize that because we're hooked to physical bodies and we're hooked to worldviews and existential ideas and money and it's like, no, you know, whatever it is, that part alone, if that, if our brains and neurological system take that hard to hit, it's going to have, it's going to have bleed over into other domains.

And so, yes, but I totally agree often. Yeah. Because that's how our brains are trained to think all spiritual, to be very compartmentalized and say the spiritual is the most important. And I think that's, I think that's fine to think that, but it's not the only. You know, and, and to say, Oh, I'm just going to figure out we can cuss on here, right?

Yes. In the spiritual, I'm thinking, I'm just going to say it in the [00:15:00] spiritual realm, get it gathered there. We'll just make everything. Okay. It's like, Oh. You've taken a lot harder hit than just a spiritual issue and that's huge. I'm not minimizing it. I'm just saying it's, it does not stand alone, which is what exactly what you're saying.

Katherine: Yeah. And then I also appreciate you highlighting the financial part too, because I think that that's a. a place that is sort of a hidden impact of it. And, you know, maybe your career and you like switch jobs or you get a new job or you switch careers or you move or

Connie: you or might have to make a physical move.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or you, you didn't, or your job wasn't impacted and you weren't like on staff at a church or something and you were still able to do your job. But then. The physical impact that leads to potentially having to go on meds or, or getting ill, as you mentioned, or having to go to therapy and pay [00:16:00] for therapy.

Like, I mean, I just think of like how much money I've spent on therapy in a decade. I'm like, I could have bought a house with that money.

Connie: So

Katherine: much money that I am very. Believe was very well spent. I don't regret spending it. But at the same time, it's like that. That is a massive one of the reasons. Yeah.

And one of the reasons by tears of Eden, we offer our support groups for free because there are so many other things that people have to spend money on to recover. We don't want to give you another thing that you have to spend money on in order to recover. So yeah, I really appreciate you highlighting, highlighting all of those things for us.

What are some of the initial steps that you have seen people take in that healing journey? Common, common things that people will do. Once they have come out of this really horrendous experience. What are some of the steps?

Connie: Oh, that's a [00:17:00] great question. Well, you know, I'm a therapist. And so 1 of them is they're coming to therapy is 1 of them.

And, you know, and let me say something. I truly don't believe that therapy is the only way to heal. I truly don't. I think there are people. And there are resources and there are online resources. There are so many things that can help us heal. And a lot of times people go, Oh Connie, you know that person.

Oh my gosh, they so need to go to therapy. And, you know, and, and I'll be like, I need therapy. Yes, exactly. Well, I, I see why you're saying that. Yes, indeed. But, but really, There's also, therapy is one piece of a pie in healing, so, and sometimes it's a really essential pie, and part of the piece of the pie, and sometimes it's not that [00:18:00] essential a piece, sometimes people do a really good job of doing their own work using other resources, so what I see is people, you know, what they start doing, part of it is they start actually processing their own story in some way or another, so They're like, okay, what, what just happened to me?

Like, I know I was just in an explosion or an avalanche, whatever we want to call it. But, like. What happened? How did it happen? How did it happen to me? What happened? A lot of times it's not even clear what exactly took place. All I know, I'm bleeding out an artery and I don't know exactly what happened.

Was, was I in a car wreck? Or was it a tornado? Or was it an avalanche? Or how did I get here? So I think processing this story is, [00:19:00] is another thing that people really start doing when they Just like survive the first initial Blow and saying either I'm distancing myself or I'm getting out or whatever form that takes.

I think those are a couple really big things right off the top. They start and to heal and thrive. They start having to make connections with other people who get it. Somehow, there may not even fully be other survivors, although I think that's super helpful and healing, but at the beginning, it just may be somebody who has a good sense and and will

Katherine: validate.

That was a big deal. Yes,

Connie: that was really painful. Yes, exactly. And that was traumatizing and. Wow, how did you survive that the validation feels like such and and they and I think most people in some way or another start getting educated about it [00:20:00] and that's the answering what happened and I know my book I always say I wrote to me at 25 years old I wrote saying what girl what did you need to understand that you had no clue about that would have Facilitated your healing instead of taking a decade to think I was going to survive the resources we have now.

It's like, you can't speed up the process, but you can help it and aid it and keep from getting from. Infected you know, re traumatized. There's certain things you can do to help healing progress. Well, and I didn't have a lot of that. So that definition of what happened, how was I vulnerable? I'm a strong, yeah, I'm a strong cognitive person.

How did, how did this happen to me? I'm a leader. How did this happen? So, you know, all of those things, I think sorting out [00:21:00] the story, getting validation from other people who go, whose eyes get wide and they're like, What did you go through? And especially when you've got a whole community that's basically saying, it's your fault.

You know, the whole, if you leave a community, the whole community is like, Hmm, your problem, it's your fault if it's an abusive system. And

Katherine: that's a lot of people saying that about you.

Connie: Oh, you're, sometimes your whole world. I mean, everybody that matters. As saying that you're Paul and I remember telling the story to other people, including my second date with my husband, who is now my husband.

There was some good trauma dumping that happened there anyway. And honestly, it was also some important information both of us needed to know. And. And so I remember telling him and him being a pastor, a former pastor, he looked right at me and said, that was abuse. Nice. Oh, there were probably some abusive [00:22:00] elements, but I was, you know, it was my issue.

I made some bad choices. Oh my gosh, thank God for my husband, you know, who was like calling bullshit. Yeah, this was abuse. Yeah. And to tell other people outside of the system and watch their eyes get wide and say, they did what to you? They did. And those people who don't know my story, I was sexually abused by a pastor and then blamed by the church and.

kicked out for it. That's the short story. And so, you know, to hear people, to tell my story, not in those words, actually taking much more responsibility. For what happened and then look at me and say they did what and I'm like, why are you not saying? Why did you do that? Yeah And it's just so important to have those other people So those are some of the immediate things that come to mind when I think of what people are doing I'm sure there's a much better list, but those are some immediate things when

Katherine: people are processing their story in the aftermath?

What [00:23:00] percentage of folks or what? range of folks It's that process their story, but not just the story of the abuse, because I'm thinking of another domain that this might resuscitate is, is your past and like, Oh, what happened in your childhood that like brought you to this place and how. How are, I mean, I know that that happened for me of, of knowing that the trauma that I was experiencing in the church, because it was so similar to what I experienced in my family, that I was severely, not only traumatized in real time, but I was also being re traumatized, and having to balance that.

So, yeah, what percentage of people were, were it impacts their entire life story, not just that part?

Connie: I, I don't see Always, never, every, but I will say 99. 9%. Yes.

Katherine: I'm not going to say every person, but I'm going to say most people.

Connie: Yeah, pretty much every person. Yeah. Part of it [00:24:00] is because we bring, this is part of brain science, is we bring our paradigm, our neuropathways for positive and for negative to every situation we encounter.

And so if we're, if, If power and control dynamics are already familiar, and if you're raised in conservative religion, they are. They can't not be. And the more conservative and fundamentalist, in my view, the more power and control dynamics come into play in the institution and the world view, those are deeply familiar and viewed as positive.

And so you, how would you not step foot? Yeah, into a system that loves power and control and eventually misuses it. And so to me, and you don't understand those dynamics. I mean, you just don't, you don't get that when you're [00:25:00] raised like that. This is, you know, the Bible says, God says, the pastor says it's, it is.

What's considered by everybody to be incredibly positive, helpful you know, the right thing. And so to bring that, the, all those neural pathways that form a worldview and you put trauma, most of us, 99. 9 percent of us have either trauma with a capital T or a lowercase T in childhood and adolescence, you don't survive this life without.

Massive jolts as a child or adolescent. So then you create worldviews. Around those, you're bringing them into the next, if they're not processed well, and most of us take our lifetime to process these well, and that's not discouraging, that's just realistic, but we usually don't have it all processed at 20 years old, and, no, we don't have it all processed then, and so we're bringing even previous trauma, and the [00:26:00] familiar feel of how that got there, and, So, yes, we're, it is, I have yet to sit with a person for very long and say, Oh, this is the sole thing we're talking about.

I don't even remember ever doing that. It's like, okay, we're talking about this, but they start saying, Oh, my gosh, this was a replication of this situation in my childhood. Yes, it was. It's what we do. And there's no, there's no shame in that. It's just what, it's how our brains work for better and for worse.

This is, I mean, you know, us therapists deal with pathology, but our brain has also given us all kinds of survival tools, how we cope through all of that. So,

Katherine: yeah, and those things can sometimes even help to like the process of just like recognizing that something is helping us recognize something is wrong or helping us helping us wake up.

And that that those experiences are can also be just really Can be helpful and [00:27:00] and our resources that we can tap into as we are in that healing process, and I don't want to skip over the healing process as we jump into thriving so I just want to create a disclaimer of like when we talk about thriving.

This is, this is like. A way to just provide some future hope. Not as a way to put pressure. We're not saying you need to be here or you need to be here at a certain time.

Connie: In fact, some people shouldn't be here yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want them to arrive yet. Right. Right. You know, it's, that would, you know, and I use physical metaphors all the time, but that's like, you know, when I was going through cancer and treatment saying you need to start training for a marathon girl.

No, no, it's not

Katherine: that's the need to get through your day. That's what

Connie: exactly survive today. Make sure you're getting something in your stomach. Make sure your nausea meds, you know, whatever it [00:28:00] means. It's not time to do a marathon, but we're talking about a level. Of robust health in the future that's possible and that's where I just yeah, I, I remember at the retreat.

I said, how many of you know, I said, how, how does us talking about thriving land or something to that effect because I knew there were going to be people that are going, Oh, shut up. I don't want to keep flagging. I'm like, and, and good for you. That's right. Because your system is telling you this is premature and.

And just take it as that. Say, yeah, I'll hear this, you know, have, listen to these two yapping about thriving. But I also think it could be, it's a hopeful beacon too, to say, you're going to be able to. And, and some of you listening, I know are, are either on the verge or starting to say, I think I'm past survival mode and it will be your time to hear some of this.

Yeah. And,

Katherine: and one of the, the markers [00:29:00] of trauma is feeling stuck. And have this vision of like, it will not always be this way. There is a time in the future where you will laugh again, and you will thrive. That can help unstuck us. And that's the point of this. This episode not to say you should drive. No.

Why aren't you thriving yet? Absolutely not. No, no.

Connie: I'm so glad we're talking about that because yeah, it's like, no, some of you, and I think it'd be, it's great for people even right now to take a breath and say, how do I feel about this topic? What? And most of the time, what mixed feelings? It used to, we're not one way or the other, but what mixed feelings do I have about this topic?

And to just, you know, welcome all of those feelings about it and, and honor them as we talk,

Katherine: and if you, and if you feel like. This is where you, you leave us and you need to [00:30:00] pause the episode and come back in a few months or a few years. You're, you can do, you can do that.

Connie: Please do that. Exactly.

Katherine: Absolutely.

With that, what's thriving

Connie: and how do we get there? What is thriving? Well, you know, there's all kinds of ways to define it. But of course, I,

Marker

Connie: a bit of a nerd, you know, just kind of, I'm thinking, what is the definition? And I went to, you know, some good old dictionary, standard dictionary definitions, and I like them.

To grow or develop vigorously. Isn't that a great word? Oh, I love it. To prosper or flourish. Oh, I like the word flourish. Yes, isn't that beautiful? To do particularly well under specified conditions. That's another one I loved about. Oh, that's Yes to do particularly well under specified, you know, because then that gives us options to say [00:31:00] Kinda like a plant.

What specific plant food does that plant need? Does it need more light? Less light? Does it need more water, less lot water and to, to allow ourselves, I think the individuality of healing and then thriving needs to be honored. Mm-Hmm. It is not a prescription. Okay. I mean, how often Catherine, you know, this happens.

My, my clients are like, how long is it gonna take me to get better? Give me, give me a time frame. Okay, we've been doing this

Katherine: for a while. Let's, let's

Connie: Yeah, let's First of all, with the physical body, it's much easier to do that, and there are still, you know, doctors still fudge and say, well, you could be up and around in three days, or it could be up to like three months, you know?

I mean, there's, even in the physical body, There are those, this doesn't always everybody, everybody's body doesn't do it the same and you put that in a [00:32:00] brain in a, in a neurological system and the variables are huge. So I just want everybody to, you know, be able to say, this is my journey. I mean, the downside is we can't say, okay, process your story and month one.

Do this in month two, you know, it doesn't work like that. First of all life happens, right? I mean, yeah So and so to come back and just honor This is my path and something you said earlier to we often feel very stuck in trauma recovery But most of the time and I will say this is most I would say but I would say 19 out of 20 Times when my clients say I'm stuck.

I'm like, oh, okay That's kind of that's important to look at are you stuck? So let's take a look. So are you? Exactly where you were a year ago. Oh, no. Not, oh gosh, [00:33:00] no. Oh. Then maybe this isn't stuck. They hate this. Cause, especially the ones who've been with me a while. I feel stuck. Don't say it. I know. Yeah, don't say it, because it's just taking longer than we want to.

Yes, we would like to feel better tomorrow, thank you very much. It's like, so, so, to honor the fact that this takes time, and often if we're not moving quick enough, we say, I'm stuck. And I'm like, it feels like stuck, but let's look at actual progress and sometimes I'll say, are you exactly the same place you were even three months ago.

No, Connie, I'm not, you know, I mean, they're like, whatever, but I want to honor the stuck feeling because it is there, but let's not call it actual stuck because that's actually not where we're at. So how did we get here? Catherine,

Katherine: we were talking about, Oh, I don't know, but I was really chocked up.

Connie: [00:34:00] Good.

Good. So I just want to go driving. And

Katherine: how do we get there? What is, yeah, what does driving look like? And then how do we, how do we get there? That was the original

Connie: question. Good. Okay. So what's thriving? I think that looks different too, for different people. And it's going to look different than it did before.

That's the other thing. I think we need to accept and kind of reconcile. In ourself, sometimes it is going to look like like the name of the treat was retreat was laugh again, and it's like eventually laughter needs to be another part of your life again, the ability to laugh hard and laugh freely, but even the laughter and what it's about the texture may feel different than it did before.

And that's not all bad. Most people when they are really starting to thrive will say. Of [00:35:00] course, I hate what I had to go through, but I actually like me better now. Mm hmm. What, what bigger success is there than that? To me, that's, and I know that's my story. It took me 10 years in a very dramatic moment. I write an epilogue in my book, a very dramatic moment.

For me to go, Oh, I like who I am and not that it was right that it happened, but there's, I think it was evil that what happened to me and it should never happen to anybody, but there was a part of me that said that has made me who I am and my gratitude for that was profound and I find that's pretty consistent and so it's maybe different.

And it likely is going to be different, thriving, than what it used to look like. But I also think thriving is going to have greater dimension, and wealth, and color, than it did before. And that, [00:36:00] that's, to me, that's the beauty of suffering handled well. Like you actually get in suffering. I am not Again, don't hear me saying woohoo for suffering No, a lot of it is needless and should never be there and I don't wish it on anyone that said I feel like beauty can come from that and Healing and not just okay.

I'm better like, okay. I got over it But a sense of oh who am I now that I really love that I didn't have Parts of me before that are here.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a a hurdle to get past this like reality of like, yes, this should have never happened. Yeah. Yes. And, and, and this is a, this is a churchy word, this is a Jesus word, but it's also just a word.

I see that rather than like, Oh, justification for what happened or a reason for what happened and rather like a redemption. [00:37:00] Yes. Get to step into. And now we get to claim and we get to say this happened. Yes. But despite it, this is now who I am. Yes. Yes. Resiliency of the survival spirit and the human spirit that is ours to access.

Yes. And that abuser or abusive system does not get the final word.

Connie: No. We do. That's right. And that where I love that's so funny. I I was thinking I hope she's gonna use the word redemption Because you know the church has Hijacked the word and stolen in many ways and made it its own domain its own territory.

It's not There's something beautiful about something that word Yes, they don't own it and for us to say no something could be redeemed something Some beauty could come out of something horrible. And I think that is, that is apart [00:38:00] from and across religious perspective. That's, that's just one of those, that's a, that's an existential life thing.

And it's like, let it, let it, let it be there. So, you know, part of, we talked about this at the retreat, Catherine, but part of thriving, first of all, I think, to, we need to see our all or nothing assumptions. Around thriving, we, we often, I think, especially when we're hurting and trying to heal and trying to survive, we see thriving as a light switch.

That's going to pop on 1 day. And, oh, now I'm thriving and even as I say that, most of us who live past. Probably 18 years old, we'll say probably doesn't work quite that way, but it's an underlying assumption that it's going to be. All better, that all domains of [00:39:00] life will be thriving at the same time, and that it is a steady, straight line toward thriving.

This, this, this, these steps, and you're on it. It is a crazy, twisted, three dimensional graph. And it's, you know, if we're saying straight line on a graph toward thriving, It's a mess. It's a snarled mess to get there. And there are going to be areas, I would venture to say that even the people who are hurting the most listening to this right now have areas of their life that they are actually thriving.

They may not be willing to look real carefully at that because it might feel invalidating, which it's not but, but to be able to actually there are certain areas of my life that are kind of on track. I mean, my husband and I started dating [00:40:00] fully recommended six months after I was went through the abuse.

It actually was exactly what it should have been for us. Yeah, again, not necessarily recommended. But. We, that part of my life was very beautiful while I was bleeding out arteries in so many other domains of my life. Does that make my time with, you know, my courtship and my, even that has a lot of baggage to it, our dating years, whatever, you know, dating time less valuable?

Or less than? No, it was actually quite a shining light. Does it make my other suffering less? No, it was horrific. And so, just to, just to look at that and to say, it's not an all or nothing proposition. And it does to hold that lightly and accept the fact that It's, it's not going to be an [00:41:00] all or nothing where all of a sudden one day life is just going to be all easier and all better.

Yeah.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I really appreciated that visual picture that you provided us at the retreat where you gave us domains on a piece of paper and it was just like a bunch of different blocks of different domains, family, social life, work life, spiritual life, all these different domains. Yeah.

And, and you said something to the effect of you can be thriving and have a few of these domains that aren't thriving. Like you can be thriving in general and then have a few domains that aren't going so well. And that was like a relief to me because I think I pictured thriving as everything is going great all the time.

Connie: Right. Well, I have 12. I think of this the cat out. We're talking about I give up 12 domains and these are very flexible. These were [00:42:00] my domains. And I said, I remember saying that retreat and people can say, that's not even a domain for me, or I got different domains. And that's great. But these 12 domains, let me.

Let me go through them real quick because I want to kind of talk about this. Is that okay?

Katherine: Yeah, and then maybe I could get, if you have like a PDF or something, I can put it in the newsletter. If they, if I remember, I probably won't, but no, I have

Connie: it. I have it. I couldn't get that to you. Yeah. So one domain is spiritual health when they're getting, I kind of referred to some of these earlier physical health.

Emotional mental health, of course, isn't that great that I'd forget that one emotional mental health. That's the third. And then it in relationships is the domain of family, your significant other friendships. That's huge. And that can include community like we're talking fun and recreation creativity.

Excuse me creativity adventure are all part of the fun and recreation and then I have a set that I don't know if anybody else uses, but I [00:43:00] love learning and skill building. I loved I'm a learner my heart. So I love like, what am I doing in that domain? My environment my home, my office, my car.

How's that? You know, how are things there in my environment? And then. I've got finances. How are my finances? That's a domain. Work and career. How am I making a living? How's that going? That domain. And then I have a, my last domain is life contribution. And that, that, of course these areas overlap greatly.

You know, they're not separate, but just for the sake of sorting. So my life contribution, what do I do just to contribute to this world? You know, and those are ways you do it in other domains as well, but I have it for me because well, I'm in a better place Yes, and I'm an Enneagram three So I forgive me even now so it just [00:44:00] is so when I look at all of these domains I have never That I recall in my whole life on a scale from 0 to 10, 10 being best ever, 5 being neutral, 0 being in the toilet.

I have never been above between a 6 and a 10 in all these domains at one given time. There's always a path, there's always, it's a

Katherine: neutral. But you would say you're still thriving. You would say. Yes. Yeah. Even if that's not, not everything is a

Connie: 10. Exactly. I, I've got a domain right now that is chronically painful.

There's some stuff family wise, chronically, like, ow, like if it, if it gets to a 3. 5, it's a good day in that domain. So it's a painful domain. I want to honor that. Like, yeah, that is [00:45:00] real and it hurts. And it doesn't hurt less because several other parts of my life are actually above six and, and thriving.

And so just to give that example, I think about a time in my life when I was going through cancer where multiple domains Were like, finances, physical health, career, trying to keep together a private practice, all these domains were like in distress. And the friend domain was just freaky rich. It was just like, Oh, I would just add such gratitude around that.

So a lot of domains in that time of life, it was. Below a five, but the, the upside was the friendships were just so beautiful and good. So I guess. I want to take away the illusion that thriving means everything is in the positive. [00:46:00]

Katherine: Yeah. As we wrap up, if someone is listening to this and they're like, Okay, I think I'm curling out of that survival, and I'm, you know, my head's kind of coming up and I'm able to just maybe see a little bit of sunshine.

What, what are some recommendations, resources that you would recommend to that person to start moving towards coming out of that survival space?

Connie: One of the first things I can think of, and there again, I don't want this to be triggering because it can have some baggage with it, but this is brain science. This is not religion. And that is gratitude. I think reinforcement of what is actually going well. First of all, to allow validation for all the stuff that's hurting, like, we have this Western mindset that it's got to be one cancels [00:47:00] out the other.

It's both and, that's life. But to go with gratitude, no shoulds here, what should I be grateful for? Get that out of your head. But what are you actually grateful for and if you're moving toward that thriving, I think that can really reinforce it I have a practice every morning of writing anywhere from six to ten things that i'm thankful for right then no shoulds That's the big rule.

Should I be grateful for that? If I have to ask the question, it's not going on the list like So, no, but what am I actually, and some days that means I am actually grateful for a warm house. It's supposed to have a cold snap here in the Northwest over the next couple of days. And I'm like, okay, I actually am grateful for this warm house.

Great. So to, to keep facilitating that, that's one of the first things that comes to mind. And voicing those neural pathways, a traumatized brain has deeply rutted, [00:48:00] painful and negative neural pathways. It just has such, there's such ruts of just the anxiety of waiting for the next shoe to fall, to, to, for the next bomb to go off, and to start saying, I'm going to reinforce.

We're not getting rid of the risk of hard things happening, it's real. But to say, actually at the same time, these positive things are very true. They're just as true as the negative. This is a little quote fight I get in with my clients sometimes. Okay, it's not a fight. But to say, you know, you're saying all this negative is true.

I agree, it is. And even the possibilities of negative are the truth. I can't say that wouldn't happen. But what about all the positive as well? It's an integrating of those rather than it's not Pollyanna. It's not rose colored glasses. It's an integrating [00:49:00] of actual reality and our brains say, Nope, only the negative is true.

And I'm like, let's challenge that because that eventually becomes unhelpful. For our brains, and so somehow reinforcing telling people about the positive, the ones who are also validating the negative, not ones who are pushing you,

Katherine: you're going to celebrate with you and can hold the both

Connie: hand with you.

Exactly, without toxic positivity, we do not want that, but so to keep moving there, I think social, you know, we talked about the challenges of. Friendships and community both of those. And I think those are a little different because you can have really good individual friendships without a full sense of robust community.

Yeah, but those things help reinforce positive brain function. I mean, we just do better. unisolated. We do better connected with other humans. And so those are some, and there again, be gentle, [00:50:00] take time. It's just not going to happen overnight. And that's, it's a sometimes grueling road back, but worth it.

It's worth the time and effort to say, Okay, well that friendship didn't go exactly like I wanted. I'm going to keep trying to create and develop positive connections. And I think also we're talking about spiritual, you cannot push this, but I want to give hope. I'm 30 years down. And so I feel like I have this perspective and I started what they called deconstructing 20 years ago.

I didn't know what was happening to me, my spiritual life, my brain, nobody had a name for it back then. I was just freaking out going, I'm pulling back, I'm pulling back. Is this bad? Oh my gosh, am I going to hell? Ah, you know, and I started. Questioning deeply all this stuff. So I've been on this process a long time and there are months and years that you are going to live in limbo in that in, and it's, it is [00:51:00] so damn uncomfortable.

It is. It is so uncomfortable and it is so essential that you do not rush through it. Yes, cut the process short. Yeah, but let me say sit with it in integrity you do finally come out on the other side not not with certainty I don't think certainty, but I think I can say with some solid ground to stand on I think that's a better way to put it just personally whatever that is for you you start If you don't circumvent the process, if you don't, you know, truncate the process, then you can move on eventually to go, Oh, I think I'm finding some solid ground.

For me, that was years of limbo. It was unpleasant. It isn't for everybody. My brain works slower. It had several decades to rewrite. So it took a long time, but it was so worth it to say, no, you are, there's hope for [00:52:00] some solid ground existentially slash spiritually, not they're going to, I'm not, I'm not even interested in certainty anymore but a certain definition of who I am and how I relate to life in the divine.

Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, I feel like this, this conversation has been kind of like a, it feels like a little pep talk. I feel inspired and yeah, just, encouraged. And I want this episode to end January spiritual abuse awareness month as just kind of like hope, but not hope of trying to put pressure on anyone to be here, but just to say.

One day, one day, you're gonna be able to laugh again. One day, this limbo, five years, ten years, whatever, you're gonna look back and it's gonna be over, like this part will be over, or this, this, this. Season of

Connie: this part will be over. [00:53:00] Yes, exactly.

Katherine: Right. Yes. This has been so wonderful. I always, always enjoy talking to you as

Connie: Catherine.

Yes.

Katherine: And the end of the episode, let folks know how to get in touch with you or find. Stuff that you are, you are working on.

Connie: Yes. So let me get my book out. So I remember the exact title. The title traumatized by spiritual abuse, courage, hope and freedom for survivors. That's it. And then another subtitle is discover the cultures and systems of religious abuse and reclaim your personal power.

So that's on the front of the book. That gives a bit, a bit of a Idea a range of what is in the book and get it on Amazon. So Connie Baker my website has almost. Everything you need on there Connie A. Baker, C O N N I E A as in Ann, my middle name, then baker, B A K E R dot com, Connie A. Baker dot com.

It's got resources, videos, [00:54:00] probably has this podcast, a podcast I was on before with you. So, resources for people to listen to or look up and, yeah, I think those are the main I'm I'm on Facebook. Come on. Oh, I do have here. This is important. I do have a group of probably I think it's around right above 1000 people right now and online private.

Yeah, I didn't. Oh, good. Yeah. And and I post regularly. And just to right now I'm giving a lot of questions for people to process their story. So that is overcoming Yeah, yeah, yeah. Overcoming religious abuse community. And that's on Facebook and I'm also on Instagram and Connie a baker is usually the handles on those to

Katherine: find it.

Yes. All right. Thank you so much. I will link as many things as possible in the show notes for folks. And thank you so much for being here and

Connie: always, always a privilege. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you.

S5:E3 - Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month: How Purity Culture Impacts Men - with Julia and Jeremiah fr

Katherine Spearing

New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other Side

Julia and Jeremiah from the Sexvangelicals podcast (a podcast for providing the sex education the church didn’t want you to have) join Uncertain podcast to discuss how Purity Culture can impact men.

Some topics addressed in this episode: 

• Erectile Disfunction

• Shame around sex

• Sexual Agression 

• Gender Binaries 

Check out two of the Sexvangelicals' episodes featuring Uncertain’s host Katherine Spearing:

Episode #53: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How to Leave a Controlling Family Environment, with Katherine Spearing

Episode #54: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How Romantic Comedies Can Reinforce the Worst Parts of Evangelical Culture, with Katherine Spearing

Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson are the co-hosts of the podcast Sexvangelicals: The Sex Education the Church Didn't Want You to Have. They are both Boston-based licensed psychotherapists and certified sex therapists who work with clients in Massachusetts. They currently live in Utrecht, The Netherlands. They specialize in helping couples with negative religious backgrounds discover sexuality that works for their partnership. They enjoy traveling to places that tend to fly under the radar, long-distance hiking, cooking very spicy food, unexpected conversations, and introverted days filled with reading and drinking fancy tea.

Socials:

• Instagram and Threads: @sexvangelicals

• Website: www.sexvangelicals.com

• Substack (Relationship 101): sexvangelicals.substack.com

Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings

Katherine: [00:00:00] Hello. How are you?

Julia: Good. We're excited.

Katherine: Yes. It is morning where I am, or early, early, early afternoon, and then it is evening where you all are. I know. So, thanks for giving up your Saturday night.

I know you would. Probably normally be out wildly partying,

Jeremiah: right? Wildly. The wildest

Julia: of parties.

Katherine: You in the Netherlands.

Jeremiah: That's right. Hanging out with windmills and eating a bunch of cheese.

Julia: Today is Sinterklaas and so I have heard that it is a chaotic time to be out. So this is a good day to be inside.

We've got tea. It is raining outside. So this is actually a cozy and a Perfect way to send Saturday night. I love

Katherine: it. I am so excited to be able to talk to you. I love, I love y'all's podcast episodes. I have recommended them to, I mostly recommend them to friends of mine who are recently [00:01:00] divorced and first exploring.

All of the things that they were not allowed to explore pre evangelical marriage. And and so that's a, that's a recommendation y'all are a recommendation that I pass around to some folks. I love your intro. My favorite part about your, your. Podcast episode for listeners is how you, you kind of interview each other and chat like before your episodes, those, those are always really,

Jeremiah: yes, absolutely.

And we do talk about divorce a lot on our podcast. So, that is unfortunately a part of our story and, and, and how we've come into how we've come into recognizing the impact of purity culture on relationships, so. Is that a part

Katherine: of both of your stories?

Julia: It is. Yeah. We are both we are both divorced.

Katherine: All right. And then, did you all get into doing what you do as sex and relationship therapy post [00:02:00] evangelicalism? Our post? These experiences or was this something that came up before, were you already working in this?

Jeremiah:

So I, a little bit of both for me. So, I joke with people, except it's not a joke, that I did my first couples therapy session when I was 12.

And listeners, you can... Put some of the pieces together. I, so, so I've known for some time that that I wanted to be a couples therapist. Huh. And in the field of psychotherapy there's a specific license for marriage and family therapy.

My license is in marriage and family therapy. And a lot of the marriage and family therapy schools are either at these big kind of research schools. So Ohio state has a big program where Julia went Michigan state has one or they're at Christian schools because the history of couples therapy and marriage family [00:03:00] of the history of couples therapy.

The history of marriage therapy is pretty closely linked to the Christian community. In fact, our professional organization split in the seventies from the California organization because religious people, the, the pastors spiritual directors in the seventies said like, no, like what's happening in California is too liberal, is too progressive.

Let's, let's talk about marriage and let's talk about marriage from the perspective of heteronormativity. And this is. A little bit before James Dobson starts taking over with, with focus on the family, but, but, but it's all connected to that. So. So my graduate program at Abilene Christian University is a Christian university.

But interestingly, that was, I would say, probably the beginning of my deconstruction process too. Yeah. Because marriage and family therapy at its root is systems theory. So this idea that everything is interconnected you know, I can't succeed unless you [00:04:00] succeed. We, we talk about this through, through Desmond Tutu's work.

And so, so I actually begin realizing, oh, like the church, a lot of the Christian stuff, like, like, isn't really making sense. It's clashing with systems theory. The system stuff makes a lot more sense to me. It connects. The problem is that in my twenties, I am employed by churches. Yeah. I'm, I'm a music my first career is through music ministry.

And when I left Texas moved to Boston and very quickly get hired by a church to do music ministry. And so a lot of my thirties, then my early thirties is trying to figure out how to do a systems work. I later discovered sex therapy through, through my office. How to be a sexual health professional and to be a minister at the same time.

And I thought I could pull both of them off. The church that I was in worked at claimed to be really [00:05:00] progressive. At the end of the day, I ended up getting fired. I ended up talking about sex therapy too much, made the wrong people uncomfortable, and I get the axe. Oh no! So I end up getting kicked out of Christianity, more so than leaving and choosing not to return to organized religion.

 Yeah, these

Katherine: two things are very connected in your story, like you're very much and your vocation and your deconstruction are, are very entwined.

Jeremiah: Absolutely.

Julia: Yeah. Minor entwined but in a different way. Catherine when we were interviewing you, you had mentioned something that I could relate to which is the socialization for women to be some sort of caretakers within.

fundamentalist, and other evangelical circles. Being a therapist is very much a nurturing type of career. The other career options I had considered were [00:06:00] teaching and nursing, also stereotypically nurturing, stereotypically associated with Christianity. So, I don't know if I would have become a therapist.

Had I not grown up in the environment that I did. What a question, right? Right! Ultimately, I love it most of the time, but sex therapy was deeply connected to my deconstruction process. I got married young, at the age of 22. I am divorced and when I got married my world crumbled because I had learned that getting married, getting married young was a rite of passage into adulthood, would be the sign of my worth as a human being, and would ultimately be the way that I could access the sexuality that had been denied to me.

And when I got married and I hated sex, when I got married and I didn't experience the desire from my husband that I was told would be [00:07:00] present all the time, because all men ever think about is sex, which I'm sure we'll come back to in this episode. My sense of identity shattered. My sense of identity was always in my purity as a woman, in my ability to perform my gender role, and in being a desirable person, particularly sexually.

So I became very distressed and my first years married were awful for me, even though I didn't understand exactly what was happening. Yeah. I did, two years after getting married, find a phenomenal sex therapist in Boston. I will always give Nancy McGrath a huge amount of credit for my individual and relational growth.

She was an amazing sex therapist, an amazing couples therapist. And my ex husband and I made a lot of progress, even though we did choose to get married. And just to get divorced. Yes. Yes. Even though my ex husband and I choose to got [00:08:00] divorced, choose to get divorced. And as I was continuing to grow, as I was continuing to heal, my therapist said, I was already a practicing therapist.

She said, if you decided to become a sex therapist, you would be a great sex therapist. And that was such an affirming and healing moment for me in my sex therapy training. I admitted to myself and my therapist for the first time that I didn't want to be married. And so sex therapy training was really like the last Jenga piece that caused the tower to shatter.

I wasn't an active member of a religious community when I participated in sex therapy training, but I still was. Connected to the religious world. And I was still married to my ex husband. And because I was married to a Christian man, I had status in my family system and I had status in all kinds of other systems.

And then I lost my status within my family. [00:09:00] I lost my status within my community. My divorce was fodder for gossip at a funeral and becoming a sex therapist and ultimately getting divorced was what broke my connection to that world.

Katherine: Woo! Goodness. Goodness. So this is somewhat of a rhetorical question that I know the answer to, but I still want to hear your answer.

How interconnected is sex? To personhood and relational dynamics itself. How often do you see that connection?

Jeremiah: Strongly. Strongly. Well, so, so there's two, two categories of that. In religious communities, absolutely strongly. We, we could talk maybe about the, the, the professional kind of non religious universal relationship about that later, but in the religious context very strongly,

Julia: yeah.

And I would say outside of religious contexts, [00:10:00] yes, but in a different way. So, when my, when I say that my sense of self crumbled after getting married, a big piece of that was sexuality. And so... I will sometimes have folks come to sex therapy in similar positions as me, and the couple might say something like, but it's just sex, and we still love each other, and I have a good life in all these kinds of ways, but it's not just sex for anyone.

Sex is never just sex for anyone, but especially if you grow up in an adverse or religiously abusive context, sex is actually everything. And I'm not joking when I say everything. So if you get married and sex is painful physically or emotionally or relationally, that can have massive consequences in all areas of your life.

Katherine: Right. Mm. So when you are a sex therapist and folks come to you for difficulties and [00:11:00] challenges within their sex life, very regularly, there's more happening and in their lives and in their relationships. Absolutely.

Jeremiah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's a couple of things that, that come up one. Sex isn't talked about in a lot of, in a lot of couples, obviously it's not talked about at all in religious couples.

Sex with each other, like they don't talk about it. That's right, that's right. Yes, yes, the church talks a lot a lot about sex. But the church doesn't give partners the tools or the skills to be able to talk about sexuality with each other. And if they do it's almost exclusively from the perspective of quantity, meaning how much do you want to have it?

Yes. And from the perspective of performing gender roles where men are expected to have high volumes of sexual desire, interest, and women are expected to be asexual yet to conform to the, the needs of male partners.[00:12:00] The second way that, that this shows up is around just in, in general,, if a couple doesn't have the skills and resources to talk about sexuality, what else do they not have the skills and resources to talk about?

Katherine: Right.

Julia: Yeah. A whole lot of other things. That's right. Money, or child rearing, or household management. How to

Jeremiah: deal with families of origin. So a lot of stuff gets avoided, and there's a lot of conflict avoidance that we find. And the second thing is that for the couples who are able to talk about sex and sexuality, there's a lot of variance regarding sex.

Sex can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Culturally speaking, sex is often thought of as a euphemism for intercourse.

Julia: Vaginally penetrative intercourse. That is

Jeremiah: correct. Yes. But what Julia, you and I talk about is that there's a lot of different ways that bodies can connect.

Sometimes [00:13:00] involving a vaginal intercourse, sometimes not involving vaginal intercourse. Let's talk about all of it and let's talk about all of it from the perspective of like what kinds of touch do you want? And then also, how do you want that touch to happen? How do you, what do you need before your body gets the touch that it wants?

There's a lot of different variables that Julia, you and I talk about, and that's on an individual level. And in couple therapy, of course, there's two people. So the ways that I go about sex are going to be different Julie from the ways that you go about sex. And, and then the work is, is how do we then make how do we make arrangements?

How do we make agreements about? How to do sex, how to do anything, but for the sake of this conversation, how to do sex in a pleasurable, in a pleasurable way for both people. Yeah.

Katherine: Yeah. So many, I'm like, as y'all are talking, I'm like, question, question, question, question, question, question. I

Julia: know, that happens to me too.

I was telling Jeremiah after our interview with [00:14:00] you and we took a bathroom break, I was like, I had 20 more questions to ask for

Katherine: each episode. Well that just means that we have a podcasting relationship and we will do more episodes together in the future. This is the one, one, one, one interview I've already decided five minutes in.

One interview is not enough. But one of the things that I wanted to focus on for this specific, this specific episode there is so much, and this is even just for me personally so much, uploaded A literature right now about how purity culture impacts women and women in relationships and what that does to marriages and dating and recovery after purity culture.

I this is just, you know, a regular topic of conversation with my between myself and my peers. I was in a, I'm in a, like a [00:15:00] sort of deconstruction group. I call us the Renegades. And we met a couple Saturday nights ago and everyone's at different phases in their, their deconstruction.

They're also at different phases in their sexuality and their sexuality exploration. And I just asked them just like a very, like, simple question of like, what would have been different? If you had been raised with like the full gamut of the feast in front of you and like that was the class that you got in Sunday school, as opposed to don't have sex.

And then that's the end of it. And then also just for the subject of our conversation too, I asked them very specifically about what, so in evangelicalism, It's cisgender binaries of male and female, and you and there's no other category. And so I asked them very specifically, how did that impact you and this was all people who these are all [00:16:00] people who identify as, as, as female, and then how intricately connected that binary that gender binary is to this messaging.

And so a question for you all when you meet with couples that come out of evangelicalism, what role does that binary play? In your conversations and, and for good or ill.

Jeremiah: Sure. I'll start. And then I'm curious about how you'd answer that too. Again, a lot of folks coming out of evangelical systems don't have the relationship skills of the negotiation skills to figure out how to navigate one, how to navigate differences and to how to make decisions about a relationship based on their own preferences.

So in the absence of that, they rely on gender roles. They rely on the performance of gender roles to [00:17:00] create expectations for, say, how administration gets done, how sex gets done, how parenting gets done, and there's a lot of resentment that is, that is there because Even though these things, these positions were assumed there weren't overt conversations about how to how to enact these you know, women and men both, like, they, they don't make verbal agreements to each other in the, in these contexts about Well, hey as, as a female partner, I absolutely want to do this particular thing as a male partner.

I absolutely want to do these things. It's you should do these things. Yes. And any conversation that happens centers around the should. Like you

Katherine: should do these things, not I would prefer that I do. That's right. Okay. Right. Absolutely. So one of the

Jeremiah: things, Julia, you and I do with with regards to the binary is we do whatever we can to get rid of it.

Katherine: I love that.

Jeremiah: Yeah, [00:18:00] how would you answer that? I would

Julia: agree with that. I'm sure that I'll have more to say as Katherine keeps asking questions, but the first part is recognizing What we learned about gender and how that has then impacted the relationship and what are the structures and systems and patterns that the couple falls back to.

And if anyone has ever gone sledding in the winter, you know that once you've got a path that's slick, it's really hard to set a new path. So even if, like Jeremiah said, the gender roles are causing some resentment. I imagine that my ex husband probably developed some resentment around what gender role looked like for him.

I had my own resentment around what that looked like for me. We didn't get ahead of the resentment by talking about it and negotiating it until it was too late. And even though that wasn't working for either one of us, it [00:19:00] was like a very slick... path down a sledding hill. And if you want something different, you've got to take that sled, move it to a new part of the hill, put it in snow that hasn't been down, and you've got to do a lot of hard work to create a new path that works.

Katherine: Yes, absolutely. And it sounds like from both of your stories that sometimes that new path is a new relationship.

Julia: Yes.

Jeremiah: Sometimes. In our case, yes.

Julia: Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Sometimes it is a new relationship. Sometimes it is hard work with a current partner. And sometimes it is... Being a person who is partnered with multiple people or being a person who is dating and not partnered.

Mm-Hmm. So it can look all different kinds of ways. When we talk about our podcast having a relational bent what we mean is that we live in relationships with all kinds of people. Mm-Hmm. That might mean [00:20:00] starting a new path on a new hill and your family's on another hill and they're like, you abandoned us.

Katherine: What's going on? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. No, I love that. I love that. And that, that expands sexuality and relationships in general, because even, even if you have this dynamic within this couple, like our sexuality impacts how we interact with everyone. It's not just our intimate partner. And I've really enjoyed it.

My. deconstruction journey, learning about that because it just expands possibilities and, and just, it makes it just beautiful and vibrant. And like, there's so much here and, and so very sad and also very angry at how narrow. The teaching that I received was and how very specific and gendered it was and, so sad.

And then also just like, it's a [00:21:00] fucking lie. And yet. The we'll get in all of this, but just like the, the, the conservative agenda behind that lie and unpacking that as well. And, and having that just opportunity to grieve the opportunities that I was denied. And I know that's a part of me.

So many people's journeys of just like grieve, grieving this, this loss that happened. How did that play out for both of you?

Julia: The grief part or a different

Katherine: part? Great. Yeah. Just the grieving. If, if that was a part of your journey.

Jeremiah: Oh, I think it still is a part of our journey. Yeah. I think you and I both make reference.

I'm trying to remember the last time you and I both made references to our former partners. It's been within the last week. . And, and reflecting about the sadness of, of, of painful things that, that we received. Even painful things that we said missed [00:22:00] opportunities. Mm-Hmm. To to explore and, and to have conversations that, that we didn't get the chance to have.

Mm-Hmm. that the church didn't want us to have. Mm-Hmm. . So, yeah. Yeah, that comes up quite a bit. Yeah.

Julia: I I haven't even mentioned this to Jeremiah yet, but. Something that I say when I talk about getting divorced is that my ex husband is a really phenomenal human being. And I am, I am sad that the education neither of us received, probably to a large, large part, impacted our decision to get divorced.

I am rarely on social media because it is too overwhelming for me. However, I saw that my ex husband recently celebrated his two year anniversary to his new wife. And I imagine that he is an even better partner, probably, than he was with me. Not because he wasn't a good partner to me, [00:23:00] but because he has had life to grow and evolve and learn.

And... I am very happy that he is in a partnership that seems to be really beautiful for him. And I am still, I'm still really sad. I'm sad that that relationship ended. I'm sad about the ways that I contributed to hurt. I am sad about the ways that I was hurt. And I know that I will probably think about my ex spouse to some degree.

Daily or often for the rest of my life.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Because it, it, it doesn't just go away. Deca, deconstructing and rewiring those sled paths. It's not just a, like a one and done thing. Right.

Jeremiah: Well, and it also happens while Julia, you and I are also figuring out our relationship and experiencing these really beautiful [00:24:00] moments that we have.

And. Kind of hashing out how we want to do different things. Grief doesn't happen in this, like, process where you take a pause from life and you go off and, and, and you grieve for an extended amount of time. Like, grief happens in the midst of these concurrent processes that, that are happening in a person's life.

And, and that, that makes it even more

Julia: challenging. Yeah. And I can't grieve the end of my marriage without ultimately grieving The systems that raised me, the systems that conditioned if conditioned early marriage, the systems that taught me about what dating and marriage looked like. So whenever I consider my ex husband, whenever I consider the pain or the joy that we experienced, I, I'm unable to separate that from the lack of relational and sexual health education.

From the religious systems in my life. Yes. [00:25:00] Yes.

Katherine: And how just so entwined those two things are and and just the reality of like those, those indentions in the snow are going to be so much more defined when it's coming from. religious space. This is what God wants from you. This is what requires from you.

And then everything in that system upholds that and supports it. And these things are very deeply embedded into us and is the soup that we swim in. And so I'm really excited to just get into some practical stuff and maybe provide a little bit of a resource for folks. I would like to concentrate our our conversation on specifically.

How purity culture impacts men in, in these relationships. And I, I will, we'll, we'll just start with the, with the. Typical trajectory. How, how does does purity culture show up and impact men in dating relationships?

Julia: Yeah, [00:26:00] something that I say on almost every podcast is that one of the biggest double binds or mind fucks that men experience in evangelical and other Christian cultures is that they are They're sexual aggressors, and that is the way that God made them, and they are supposed to, they should lean into that, and at the same time, that is part of their evil base nature, and they have to fight it.

Mm hmm. That is. An impossible, impossible place to live to be told that you've got to lean in and embrace this, but that also this is the most debased part of who you are and that shows up in a myriad of contexts.

Katherine: Do you feel like. Men tend to migrate towards one or the [00:27:00] other because of that double bind.

Julia: That's a good question. Good question. I would say that I've noticed men...

Jeremiah: I have a

Julia: way of answering that. I've got an idea, but you go first because I'm still formulating it.

Jeremiah: I would say that... Men who are interested in men who are interested in kind of reinforcing the gender hierarchies tend to lean more into kind of the Kind of the ownership of sexuality and, and then also the conflict in that, that, that can come from from

advocating for that. I would say that men who want more egalitarian relationships. Especially in, in opposite sex context. I think that those are men who tend to struggle with that that the double bind Julia, that you're referring to a little bit [00:28:00] more and as a result 10, those relationships tend to have a little bit more avoidance to them.

That's anecdotal. I don't know if that, I don't have any research to support that. I would

Julia: say my anecdotal experience is mostly similar and I really appreciate the theme of this episode because I, I work with a lot of couples, but I also, for probably lots of different reasons, have many individual male clients between the ages of like 25 to 37.

So we talk about this. a lot. And the really challenging part is that the gender binaries that we've described means that the misogyny reinforces the, or the, sorry, the the misandry towards men that they are sexual monsters that reinforces the misogyny and the sexism. And [00:29:00] then the misogyny continues to perpetuate this patriarchal pattern.

Which is such an awful systemic issue. Yeah. Yeah. And so often the misandry and the misogyny are just like fucking having this orgasm together. Sadly. What

Jeremiah: is the image of the orgasm? Like

Katherine: they're feeding each other. Yeah. Satisfying

Julia: each other. Right, and so I absolutely want to keep on the topic that you're describing, and I've been reflecting quite a bit on like specific impacts for men, and I think we have to still acknowledge at the beginning that all of the negative consequences towards men Still continue to hurt the entire relational structure and still continue to [00:30:00] prop up the, the sexist and misogynist norms of the patriarchy.

Jeremiah: Can I give an example about that that doesn't involve sex? Sure, yeah, yeah. So, I'm seven and Enneagram? No, no, no. Age 7. Enneagram 3. Oh,

Katherine: okay. Oh, oh, sorry. You're about to tell a story. Yes. Started when you were 7.

Jeremiah: Yes, yes. So, I'm 7 years old.

Julia: I knew where that was going, but it was confusing.

Jeremiah: I'm 7 years old.

And I am at a part of of a Bible study that a few of my families do on Wednesday nights, because heaven forbid, we don't have some sort of a church service two to three times a week. And at this particular group from time to time, I would be I would be the only boy that was there, only penis owner that was there.

So my dad had to work or that was at least his excuse for, for not showing up. [00:31:00] I made a similar excuse. So some of the other men had to, had to work. So it was the mom's wives all the kids were little girls and me. And so at seven, I remember the women in the church and this group saying, it's a devotional time at Jeremiah because you're the boy you have to lead the songs.

Okay. So little seven year old me like leads a song. Can you do an example of your accent? Oh, so I grew up in Texas. I had a. Thick southern accents, very flat vowels. My name had three syllables on it. Sometimes it had two syllables, Jerma. But, then they say, okay, well, you have to leave the scripture.

You have to lead the prayer. And, you know, I know that I am not the only boy who has been in that [00:32:00] experience who learned early on that, that men and women look to boys to provide quote leadership and running shit. And that's something that is still to this day, something that. I, I make the assumption that people will look to me.

Men and women will look to me to run things. I step into leadership roles and, and a lot of my healing work has been giving myself permission to, to, to step out of that. And, and, and I'm good at it. I, I think that I have I enjoy being in control more than I think sometimes I would like to admit, I've also taught you and I've both actually taught Julia with plenty of men who have had similar experiences and don't want any part of that.

Yeah. Right. And, and play those roles both out of a sense of obligation to the system and also do so in a way that's antithetical to their own personality traits and to their preferences. They'd much rather play a more passive role, just kind of sit [00:33:00] back, kind of watch the world kind of do its thing.

And, and, and they don't know what to do. We actually had an interview quite recently on our podcast with, with a couple of men actually for, for whom that was true. So yeah, so, so the expectation then that men are not just like sexual monsters or sexual initiators, but are initiators of any kind of process with, with the exception of domestic administrative processes, which is a whole other conversation we can get into in a bit.

Except for cooking and cleaning. Yeah, right. And mending the stockings. Right, right. But yeah, that's, that's, that's a lot of pressure. That is a lot of pressure. That, that men get put on and it also, it also discourages men from moving into collaborative spaces. Hmm. This is something you and I actually

Katherine: May I, may I pause here for just one [00:34:00] moment because one of the things that I have noticed in this, in the space that I work in the spiritual abuse realm.

Is that same thing we were talking about a podcast earlier, talking on our interview earlier about art and being ingrained with this mistrust of art. I also believe men get ingrained with this mistrust of women and how I, my work is predominantly women coming to me one because women are. You know, it's more acceptable for women to look for help and to want to collaborate one.

And then two, it's a woman run organization, like we have one male board member, but other than that, like, it is run by women, and they're not going to migrate. And I know this because I watched them migrate to the Wade Mullins and the other male leaders and and not migrate to the women, because it's still just [00:35:00] ingrained into.

The physique. Yeah,

Jeremiah: I actually think that Catherine that that's another double bind is that I agree with you that men that that this system that we're talking about you know, where Men are expected to be in leadership positions. Women from time to time reinforce that. And there's also plenty of women that are like, Hey, no, this doesn't work for me.

And then figuring out how to navigate those differences. I think that that's right, that that there are a lot of men who mistrust women and simultaneously. I don't think that men really trust men any better either. And I think that this is actually true, Julie, with what you're talking about with your, your clients.

Men are much more likely to seek an individual female sex therapist for individual therapy than they are to seek an individual male for individual therapy.

Julia: Really? Absolutely. But, but I want to qualify something that you said. I think you said that [00:36:00] men are equally less likely to trust other men. I would say men.

might be unwilling to trust men when it comes to kind of emotional issues because men are far more likely to trust men in more stereotypical leadership positions. But in terms of like the caretaking therapy to some degree has a caretaking element to it. And so I think that men Are uncomfortable talking about sex in general.

Many people are. That's not a misandrist comment. And I think it can be easier for individual men to talk to a woman about sex than a man. I don't know if seeking a female therapist for couples or family therapy is as oriented. Not for couples and family therapy. But I think that. They're going to go

Katherine: to a man.

Julia: Right. Because, because, because of what you're describing, Catherine, around like trusting men in these [00:37:00] forward facing leadership positions in a family or couples therapy is more forward facing, so men are more quote unquote reliable. But if it's an individual context in which. There's the assumption that emotional nurture might be more a part of it.

I think that men could be more prone to seeking a woman, just to seek a woman. But all of this goes back to Catherine, exactly what you're describing around men needing to be in over leadership positions. And Jeremiah, you use the word passive growing up in my community. Passive was used as derogatory.

Yeah. And that a passive man was not a man. Right. So books like Wild at Heart and pour into my community every man Battle to fight, beauty to save. Yeah. Yeah. Every everyman's battle was popular in my community and it was all about, [00:38:00] men being assertive at best, aggressive, dominant, violent at worst, and I'm even thinking about, like, my dad, and my dad is not a particularly dominant person.

If my parents were out of their religious system, I would probably ask my dad what that was like because I wonder if it was really hard to be in a system in which you were told that you had to be so overtly dominant when that wasn't part of your nature.

Katherine: Yeah, I'm thinking about the women that I met with.

That I referred to earlier and, and they just said how most of their relationships sort of defaulted into a functionally egalitarian relationship while they still espoused complimentary and they just [00:39:00] didn't tell anybody. I think

Julia: that's, I think that's how my parents marriage operates. And I think that's how

Jeremiah: my ex's parents.

Julia: Many relationships operate. Yeah.

Jeremiah: Oh, yeah. Hmm. That would be interesting to do research

Julia: on. Just a clarifying

Katherine: question about men seeking out a female sex therapist, more likely to seek out a female sex therapist. Is it possible that there's some shame? In that too of they're not going to talk to another man to admit that they struggle.

Yes.

Julia: I can give a great example. So I had a male client and I've had several iterations of this. And he came to therapy seeking help for quote unquote, erectile dysfunction. Diagnostic language around sexual health is so damaging to men and women. So I would never use that language of erectile dysfunction, but that was his language to me.

That's why I'm using it. what I would say is that [00:40:00] sexuality had some challenges for him. And one of those challenges was having the erections that he wanted to have. So we tried to get away from diagnostic language as much as possible, but. He told me that it would be one of the most shaming things possible to have a conversation with another male about about sexual health in general, particularly because men learn in and outside of religious structures that part of sexual dominance is having a specific type of erection in a specific kind of way.

And that is not how erections work for many, if not all people. We could have a whole con, a whole longer conversation about erections and what men learn about their penises and what they learn about erections. It might be even worthwhile later in our conversation, but [00:41:00] over time, I really encouraged this client to talk to some of his male friends about sexuality and what was working and not working for him.

And one day he came into therapy and he was like, Julia. I had a conversation with one of my male friends about sex, and it was one of the most meaningful conversations that I've ever had. And If more men talked with each other about sexuality in non toxic, dominant ways, I believe that would be massively healing towards humanity in general, regardless of gender.

If the shame was stopping him.

Katherine: Yeah, and I just think about how... So much of the sexual conversations for men was accountability oriented and like, how are you guarding your eyes? And how are you guarding your heart? And, you know, you know, documenting how often you masturbate and all of these like [00:42:00] very shaming?

So I can see that being so just so damaging for it

Julia: is. And it's so it can I say one other thing about this. It's really interesting because in another conversation, the three of us talked about how the church is not as counter cultural as they think they are.

But one of the main themes is this idea of like, You. In these cases, like, the humanity of women being fairly non existent, so in secular world, that means you just keep track of how many women you have sex with, and like, they are a number to you, and you want to get as high as possible, and then Catherine, what you're describing, when men are told to, you know, document how time, how many times they masturbate and then confess to another man and like not look at another woman.

It's still like this idea of like women being objects. We had a conversation several podcasts [00:43:00] ago with our friends. Sarah and... Jake. Yeah. And, and Jake was describing about, you know, going to Six Flags as a youth group. And it's like, there's gonna be a lot of boobs out there.

They wouldn't have said it that way. And it's like, just avoid the boobs. Like, and, and without any conversation that these are 13 to 16 year old girls. They are not walk Sets of boobs. Yeah. But whether they're children, right? Mm-Hmm. . And so, in and outside of these contexts, women are these vessels that you either have to conquer or avoid until you get married.

And you have to document how you're either like dominating or avoiding Mm-hmm. in this really restrictive version of what it means to be a man. And in either context. You are essentially a sexual monster who is either dominating and giving in to the, like, desires of the flesh, or you're working really hard to, like, fight your sin nature, and that makes you a good

Jeremiah: man.

And we have language for [00:44:00] this. Sex addict. Right. So so Joshua Grubbs is a researcher at Bowling Green and he has produced several articles about this that the majority of men who identify as sex addicts also have a high degree of religiosity. Oh and so the idea connected is absolutely so well, and it's, and it's connected back even to like to seven year old Jeremiah too, that, that, that, that the problem must be me.

I am a sexual monster as opposed to men coming together, talking together, Julia, like what you're saying. And talking about the fucked up positions that that, that the fucked up things that men learned about their bodies, the fucked up things that men learned about women's bodies and how we all want to, how we all want to do better in our own relationships, same sex relationships, opposite sex relationships, sexual relationships, non sexual [00:45:00] relationships.

Yeah. And

Katherine: maybe it's not a, and I feel like I've, I've approached it. What was brought into that in a little different perspective through the trauma lens of just like addiction itself, typically, or what we call addiction typically developed out of trauma and religiosity itself typically develops out of trauma and and having and having that you know, stuff ingrained into your mind. It's not like, and, and approaching it like a, a, where you like have all of these steps and you have all of these, you know, accountability things that you're supposed to do, but then you you're not addressing the stuff underneath it and the trauma that is,

Jeremiah: well, and I think that that's right.

And, and I think that. It's one thing to address that trauma in a professional context. I think it's a completely different thing to address that trauma in relationships with other people who've gone through a similar thing. [00:46:00] Yeah. And that's, from my perspective, that's why the relational perspective is so, it's so powerful.

Mm hmm. As the capacity to help, for the sake of our conversations, kind of men get out of some of these double binds and the shame that accompanies that double bind. Mm hmm. In, in, in more meaningful, kind of longer lasting ways. Right.

Julia: Right. And the language around. Addiction also focuses on behavior versus value.

So, so I will always ask clients, what does sex mean, if a person is talking about sex, if a person comes in and says that they are a sexual addict, I will ask what that means. And typically they might say, Well, I masturbate or I watch pornography. And so, so we'll talk, we'll be like, okay, so let's, let's put porn on the side.

Let's put masturbation on the side as a behavior. And let's talk about like what [00:47:00] the values are. I had a really interesting client, former client who was a seminarian. And and he Had reached out to me because he thought that I was a Christian sex therapist, and I explained, I said, I am not. I said, I actually am not a part of any religious communities, but I have an understanding of Christian culture so I work with a lot of folks in this area.

And I think it spoke to volumes of this client that he said, Okay, I'll work with you. with you because typically working with a secular therapist, that's like scary. And it was so interesting because he had a lot of shame around masturbation and he had a lot of shame around pornography. And we had this conversation and I said, okay.

Tell me about what your sexual values are without moralistic language and without behavior language. So he talked about sex being a form of connection, and he talked about sexuality being [00:48:00] sacred, and he talked about a few other values. And I said, that's so interesting. I said, huh, I actually think almost all of the values that you have.

I hold two. And, and then it was the conversation around, okay, so if sex, whether it's with yourself or someone else, if it's a form of connection, like, What does that mean? How can you enact that? If sexuality on your own or with someone else is a sacred thing, like what does that mean? And I think a big piece of work for men in Christian communities is getting out of the behavior obsession, which isn't their fault.

And thinking about the value moving away from the quality of an erection, moving away from whether or not you masturbate and or watch pornography and moving about, like, what are the values that you have around your bodies about gender, about women, about men, and then like rethinking what sexuality can look like.

And

Jeremiah: we talk about this, [00:49:00] Julia, in our series on Sex Evangelicals The Sex Education We Wish We Had in which we talk about the sexual health principles or values from the work of Doug Brown Harvey around consent, non exploitation, conversation about contraceptions and STIs, honesty, shared values, and mutual pleasure.

I love it. Those are the values that we tend to start from. But also, Julia, your question, being able to ask, what are your values as well? Like that and

Katherine: being able to have an opportunity to develop your own values outside of that religious. I want to go back. I want to get into those five things that you just mentioned, but I want to go back and talk about bodies for a minute.

We mentioned that women's bodies were made objects and it's like you're walking instead of boobs like it was it was objectification. And that was how a woman's body was viewed and presented to [00:50:00] men. It was also how we we viewed our own race to kind of your own body is of just like cover up cover up cover up and that was literally cover up cover up cover up and then.

Here's how you use a tampon on your period. And like, that was literally it. And so for men, what are the messages about their bodies that they receive in these communities?

Jeremiah: Men are machines. And, and, and this is both within Christian context and in larger capitalist contexts that men are machines that men are, that all men think about is sex.

That sex is the number one most important thing and that that's what being a good man is about. And that men are meant to compete. Yeah. Mm. And, and compete with other men and also compete with women. Yeah. I, I would argue that ultimately misogyny is a A misappropriation of competition between men [00:51:00] and women as opposed to men taking that energy around some of the injustices that they experience and taking it back to like the larger political and social systems that put them into shit situations.

Yeah.

Julia: It's interesting, Jeremiah, because some of, I don't, I agree with everything that you said. some of what you said isn't necessarily inherent to bodies. Sure. It's about, you know, competition, for example, you use your bodies to compete, but that's more of a concept, I guess. And so I suppose, and I'd be curious.

To hear how the two of you experience this similarly or differently, there wasn't a lot said about the bodies of men in my communities. And when I work with couples, especially hetero couples, women have a lot to say about their bodies and what they learned about their bodies. Men have much less to say about their bodies, at least anecdotally.

And what they do say about their bodies does tend to [00:52:00] revolve around their penises. And I would say that's more from secular culture than religious culture. Although, as we've discussed, both of those things overlap. Actually I'm going to walk that back. The church doesn't talk about erections explicitly.

Implicitly, there's a lot about erections. So if you edit it, you can edit that how you will. But yes, women have a lot. About their bodies that they learn that they can communicate men don't learn as much about their bodies. I

Jeremiah: agree.

Katherine: Yeah, and it makes me think that like what women learn about their bodies is typically oriented around a man.

Or oriented around the reproductive system and having babies, men don't, don't quote unquote need their body for those things. Like they don't, they're conditioned. I don't need my body other than to protect.[00:53:00]

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I remember reading this like super toxic book and the fundamentalist world about why like women need to like submit to men because like women have more power to have Babies. And so if men don't have that power, then they're going to turn into an animal. So they need like the woman to like, keep them from turning into the monster.

Because the woman has this like special power and like birthing babies, very, very toxic book yet. That's it. That's kind of like it in a nutshell

Jeremiah: of and that's what that's that's also a Christian relationship literature in a nutshell. Yeah, I can think of like 13 other metaphors that describe like the very similar process that you were just describing Catherine,

Julia: right?

Well, in going back to the erection piece, and clearly that's on my mind a lot today. When men learn that all they want is [00:54:00] sex, they, the the When they're told that's all they want. Yes, yes, yes, yes. When they are told all they want is sex. Yes. Which, when often they don't that does have some implicit Implications for for the penis and for needing to be physiologically aroused right away.

And so sometimes other men will come in and talk about erectile dysfunction and I'll say, Oh, so you didn't get an erection in 30 seconds of making out or so you had sex with a partner for a longer period of time. And at one point. You lost your erection. Like, where did you learn that that's erectile dysfunction?

Mm hmm. Actually, that's like very normative. Right. Functioning as a human being. But I will say that even though men don't learn as much about their bodies inherently, the implications about their bodies to [00:55:00] sexuality are pretty strong. And revolve

Jeremiah: around the mythology around the penis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katherine: Whoa. So, what, what does a man do when they're no longer, like, The penis is not the only thing about them, like where, where does, where does the conversation go? How did they become like a full whole integrated human being? When their penis is no longer the center of their life. Well,

Jeremiah: and that gets back to what I was trying to explain a little bit earlier about.

I think the answer to that question is different. If a man is interested in reproducing complementarian gender hierarchical systems. I think men in those systems with with those needs have no idea what to do and have these existential crises, either over longer periods of time or in these like short term outbursts, types of [00:56:00] control behaviors.

I think men that want. And strive for a more egalitarian context and opposite sex partnerships may have a little bit of an easier time exploring different ways of you know, providing, providing touch engaging in pleasure that, that don't involve, that don't center around their penises. It can

Julia: come with some relief.

Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I'm thinking about some couples that

Jeremiah: I've worked with. I've experienced that personally speaking.

Julia: Oh, so. Is that okay that I asked him? You're the interviewer. I'm just very curious. No, I am

Katherine: too. I was coming. I was coming right behind you.

Jeremiah: No, Julia. I think, I think that I think that that's one of the sources of freedom that I've experienced in our relationship too.

Like, like I I've shared with you some anxieties that I have around my penis and you've, you've said, Oh, well, that's silly. I don't think that most women don't think that I'm like, Oh, you're right. Oh, the research supports what you're saying. Also, like, I want a more collaborative relationship. I want to be a more collaborative person than, than I was in, in [00:57:00] my marriage.

And so, yeah, I think I've been, I think a sense of relief is, is absolutely correct. I've experienced a lot of that regarding regarding sexuality regarding a lot of elements of our relationship. Very

Katherine: cool. I'm such a great partner. You guys are

Jeremiah: the real MVP of this operation.

Katherine: Ah, I love, I love that. Segueing into some of your, your five, your five things.

And also because this was probably one of the first episodes I listened to from, From you all. And I learned a lot about it. The message of consent, which I never learned until like very, very recently within the past few years and, and have friends. Who were married very young, and are now, you know, divorced and exploring things outside of it and I am having to teach them about consent, because it [00:58:00] was never a part of their upbringing, either and like, No, actually what that man just did to you was, was not consent and like sending them the YouTube video about the tea and tea and consent, tea and consent and like, you are allowed to say, No, and they should be looking for an enthusiastic.

Yes. And, and how does that, I know how that like shows up for women and what, and the impact that that has on women, what is the impact that that has on men in sexuality? Well,

Jeremiah: first of all, consent is a relational process. Consent is a dialogue. And part of. The narratives of masculinity is that men by being the gender and opposite sex couples by being the gender that has a higher quote sex drive should also be the initiators and that [00:59:00] initiation is so if, if initiation is expected by men If initiation is accepted to be done by men, if there's an assumption that men have higher sex drives, that women don't have high sex drives like this is setting up a recipe for some really harmful sexual experiences both in terms of, of.

emotional damage that can happen through a lack of communication, lack of overt consent, and also through significant emotional, physical, psychological damage from men who overtly exploit that to abuse women. So I would, I, I, I would start there that I talked on the podcast about what happened when I in my sex therapy training, the first class that we took was around the, the six sexual health principles that I mentioned and, and, and about consent and my response leaving that was, oh, fuck, I [01:00:00] am 33 years old.

I have never had this conversation and I have been. engaged in a 14 year sexual relationship that has not been particularly dialogical. Yeah. And there's reasons for that that we can talk about maybe in another context, but, but, but part of that is rooted in these expectations that both my partner and I had that, or my ex and I had that, I am the one that has a higher sex drive that it should be initiating sex.

And, and, and my partner as, as a woman should be the recipient and, and, and even be even be asexual. And so according to that, I have conversations which is super, super damaging. And so I had, I came back. From a class. I talked with my ex about this. Hey, we need to talk. I am so sorry that we have been having these experiences.

I want to do this differently. I'd love to figure out a way to talk to you [01:01:00] about this and my ex, who is also like steeped up in, in much more of a similar experience religious experience to Julia growing up, growing up in the Baptist church than, than I was. Her response was, Oh, it's no big deal.

Thank you. Which threw me for a loop and looking back on this now, like recognizing how entrenched she still was. Yeah. In these expectations about what men do and what women do.

Katherine: And it was just normal, so normal for her. She had no concept or idea of anything else. That's right.

Julia: Yeah. That's bad. Well and I'm not saying bad in a that is not bad in a blaming way towards anyone.

That is a bad system for all of us to have learned from, you know, this is super sad. So I've had [01:02:00] experiences in which like men have abused me sexually in an exploitive way. And that is a really awful experience. And then I've had experiences, perhaps more similar to what you're describing, Jeremiah. In which the abuse of, or the the non consensual experience is not necessarily abusive.

Non consent can absolutely be abusive and I've experienced that. Or non consent can exist when a couple doesn't have relational tools to navigate consent. So I had a diagnosis of vaginismus and vulvodynia, which means essentially painful intercourse and the constriction of the vaginal muscles. Deeply connected to...

Evangelicalism so I'm hesitant to use that diagnostic language, but that was what I experienced, which means that sex was often painful. And when I got married my husband and I would sometimes have these sexual experiences that were very, very physically painful. And my ex husband, who is a good human being, saw that I [01:03:00] was in pain, and he had this terrible choice in which he could stop the sexual experience because he didn't want to see his partner in pain or be any part of inflicting that.

However, if he chose to stop the sexual experience, that would also communicate to me as the woman in this. situation that I was not desirable. And so sometimes he would initiate stopping the sexual experience. And I would sometimes say, no, no, no, keep going. Because for me, that was my only way of proving my worth as a human being.

And so I could also have the opportunity to say, yes, let's stop this experience and save myself from the pain. Or I could power through the pain. And so both of us were stuck in these really terrible dynamics, which the experience was not consensual, right? Right. Not consensual because I was clearly in a huge amount of physical distress and emotional distress.

[01:04:00] However, From my perspective, that wasn't an abusive, non consensual experience, and I think the assumption that non consent is always abusive keeps us from having these dialogues because there is so much shame associated with it.

Katherine: That's right. Right, right. And I think that was something that I learned from y'all's episode about just because it's non consensual doesn't equal marital rape.

And I think that that is a new, a new a new phrase. Phrase. Simple. Right. That we're, we're more acquainted with. And, and I, and I love, thank you so much for sharing your example, Julia, because It was like you both were consenting to play roles. So there was consent. You didn't necessarily, you didn't know there was anything different, you know, like, yeah, it wasn't that he, you were saying, no, I don't want this.

And then he was forcing [01:05:00] still, that's a very different dynamic. We both have these roles to play. And we're both just playing

Julia: and we're performing our genders and we didn't know that we could consent out of it. And sadly, I've had the experiences that you're describing in which a sexual experience was forced due to an abuse of power.

And, and that's a different, that's a different kind of experience. Both are painful, both are harmful. But I think we have to have more nuanced dialogue around consent.

Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then just, Oof. And then like your story, Jeremiah, of like recognizing that this had never happened, like, and it wasn't in an effort to, to dominate, it was in an effort to play the role that you were told.

Jeremiah: Right. Right. Yeah. Right. And, and, and just to kind of build on [01:06:00] that, that yeah, like our earliest sexual experiences with my ex, yeah. Were they almost all ended with panic attacks. With my ex wife having a panic attack, and, did you

Katherine: correlate it with what had just happened? Or did you think it was completely separate?

I had

Jeremiah: no idea what was going on. I didn't have the language for it. I just knew that there was a sexual experience for something I wanted, something I thought she wanted. And the panic attacks, obviously like shut down the experience. It, it it heightened my own desire to move into like protective spaces.

And, and so I learned that initiating conversations about sex that had the capacity to bring that that, that, that kind of pain. So, so not just on a, on a, on a physical level, Julia, what you're talking about, but on a dialogical level. Sure, sure. Both. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Katherine: If this is too much information, you're, I will cut it from the episode, but were, [01:07:00] was, were your first sexual experiences in marriage?

Jeremiah: Depends on what you mean by sexual experience. Let's,

Katherine: let's, let's play the, the

Jeremiah: marital relationship was my first experience with intercourse. Got

Julia: it. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And Yeah. I think the question is relevant in the sense that that meant a following of purity culture rules because the church defines sexuality by vaginally penetrative intercourse.

I think that language is so harmful because it I think that eliminates any other kinds of sexual experiences that are, that are just as, as valid and

Jeremiah: just as enjoyable.

Katherine: Yeah. And, and building that connection and intimacy as you were, you were talking about earlier as [01:08:00] a way of just wrapping up the episode, we've talked a little bit about this and you have shared some really great insights into the healing processes.

That you have both been through and then also clients but what are some just like stepping stones and, and, and starting places for like men listening to this episode of just like how to integrate and be that whole human. And then for women who might be in that hetero cisgender relationship on on what they can like how to just kind of navigate.

Potentially very brand new things that they may have learned in this episode. We can start with the men.

Jeremiah: I'm also thinking about stepping stones. I think first things first, we have to start thinking about sex in ways that go beyond vaginal intercourse. That sex is the way that the ways that two bodies interact with each other in a way that creates [01:09:00] some sort of, some sort of physical pleasure.

And thinking then about, well, what are the diversity of ways in, in, in, in which that happens for me what are the types of what are the types of touch that I like? Well, what are ways that I can have pleasure that, that, that don't involve touch and, and that can, that can either for myself and, and that are also relational so I think that.

Thinking about stepping stones, I think that that's an important stepping stone to acknowledge that sex is not a reduction to our penises that sex involves the totality of our bodies. Yeah.

Julia: I would say that learning to talk about... Sex is probably one of the stepping stones, and that's really difficult if you've never had any models for talking about sexuality. In our episode with you when we interviewed you for our podcast, you mentioned the [01:10:00] challenge of Well, how do you find a voice after leaving a religious community when you never developed one, right?

And so I recognize that even, I suppose, this stepping stone is a complicated one because that would require a person or a couple or a group to step up. to create a new roadmap or to start a new pathway down this sledding hill. Maybe having some questions could be helpful. So asking a partner or a friend or someone you trust who you believe could have this dialogue with you in a meaningful way to say, you know, what did you learn about your gender growing up.

What did it mean to be a man in your church? That might be a helpful first step, because it can also test out the water a little bit. Talking about what you learned is potentially vulnerable, but you're still [01:11:00] talking about something outside of yourself to a degree. And so being able to talk with someone about what that meant and what about that might've been difficult you know, to go there if, if, if the first part of that conversation goes well.

Yeah.

Katherine: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just getting, just getting comfortable with like just understanding the messages. Yeah. You received. Yes. It's hard though. It's hard work. Listen to sexvangelicals.

Julia: That's right. You can listen to our podcast.

Jeremiah: Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts,

Katherine: wherever you get your podcasts. Well, this has been very informative and also feels like the beginning of a conversation and there's just so much more to explore.

Just, yeah, through this lens, but I really appreciate you providing that extra perspective[01:12:00] just because. In the purity culture conversation, it tends to center around the woman's experience. And, and it, and as we know, patriarchy doesn't just impact women, it impacts everyone.

Julia: Right, right. And I think that one of the messages about purity culture is that women are the gatekeepers to sexuality.

And that's something that's damaging to women, but it damages men because it erases their ability to describe Their experiences in, in their own ways ,

Katherine: And, and almost eliminates their agency

Julia: within it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course.

Katherine: Yeah. Well, this has been great. As we, as we wrap up , share where folks can interact with you.

And then are you, are you all taking. Taking clients or do we have a full docket at the moment?

Julia: They can reach out

Jeremiah: to us and reach out to us. Yeah. So for more information about working with us, we're in, in the early stages of getting some coaching processes together.[01:13:00] Sex evangelicals at gmail.

com. We're also on Instagram and threads at sex evangelicals. And then we also have a subsect that goes out two or three times a week called relationship 101, which you can find at sex evangelicals. subsect. com. That's super

Katherine: easy and super simple. I love it.

Appreciate y'all.

S5:E2 - Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month: What Survivors Need from a Therapist - with Rachel Bernstei

Katherine Spearing

New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other Side

Rachel Bernstein LMFT, MSEd from the IndoctriNation podcast discusses what it’s like working with survivors from high-control groups. This episode is for survivors looking for a mental health professional or for mental health professionals looking to work with the demographic of survivors of cults, high-control groups, and spiritual abuse.

University of Salford

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript (Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings)

Katherine: Hello. How are you doing today?

Rachel: I am doing really good. How are you doing today?

Katherine: I am good. I am a little tired. I went to a midnight book release. On Monday nights, and I don't ever stay up that late, and I'm still sleeping.

That was a new thing for me. I was like, this is what teenagers do. These are not what people who are almost 40 do. But it was fun. It was a fun experience. I'm glad. Very excited to talk to you today. I know you have indoctrination podcast, and you do a lot of different work with a lot of different clients, but the particular demographic that I would [00:01:00] love to talk to you about is the demographic of folks who've And cults or high control experiences.

And I would love to hear from you, what prompted you to work with this demographic and what was the story that led you to working with this type

Rachel: of client? Nice. Okay. So there's so much to this story. I'll try not to make it overly long, but Okay, great. No, go for it. Tell, tell, tell whatever. It's slightly long, longer than it needs to be, not overly.

Right. Huh. Right. So, When I was growing up, my, one of my siblings who was eight years older got. Kind of a new friend through a friend, and they started hanging out a lot. Next thing we know, she's not really spending time at home. She has taken the money out of her [00:02:00] account and it's gone.

Which she had really worked hard for. In my family, we were supposed to work from when we were young. If we needed cash for anything, even to go to the movies, well, you need to earn it. You know, it was like that. So it, you know, we didn't take spending lots of money all at once lightly. Cause we know how much we had worked to make it and suddenly liquidated gone.

And she was speaking differently. She was acting in a very kind of in your face way. And we're like, what is going on? So then she said that she has this friend of a friend who's introduced her to this place. It's called Scientology. Got it. And and it's a church, but we're a Jewish family, but it's not a church church.

That would, that became a line in our family forever. It's not a church church. Like what? I'm sorry. It's not a church church, but it's not. So. Because there really wasn't the idea of a word cult that was known at the time, and this was in the 70s. So there [00:03:00] was no one to call. There were no resources that, you know, the books out there at the time before the interwebs, the, the books were written by cult leaders.

Like there were L. Ron Hubbard novels out there about Dianetics and his science fiction books, but nothing about what is Scientology and that it is a cult. And the, the cult books that were out there too, were more about like working with POWs who had been indoctrinated and watching the Manchurian candidate and are like, yeah, fit, but not.

So the turning point was. And I learned a lot about this. My, my parents responded different ways to stressful events. My mom was more of a kind of in your face, you have to stop this right now, finger pointing. I mean, that, that does sometimes come in handy, right? And my father instead was the, let me link arms with this person, see what they like about it, see what's interesting to them.

But also I want to ask my questions about what I'm concerned about. So, They had tension and [00:04:00] she had tension with my parents and she said this group is going to teach me how to get along better with, with all of you. And And my friend said she's gotten along better with her parents since she's gotten involved.

And so my father, in a very nice way, said could we call her parents and find out? Like, if this really has helped, then I'll say, okay. And she got the number of this person and their parents and the parents said, in this kind of panic tone, where did you see our daughter? Whoa. Right? That was a whoa.

And my dad goes, what do you mean? We haven't, we don't know where she is. She left home six months ago and she said for the last six months she's been getting along better with her parents. She hasn't seen them. So this is the way the group defined getting along better, right? No contact.

Katherine: No contact.

Rachel: Cut them off.

Oh my. That actually startled my sister. She didn't know. She didn't know [00:05:00] that's what that meant. I'm sorry. And she tried to get her money back. That was impossible, but. That you could see the personality change right away, and you could see that being in your face and she was having problems with her friends at school for the first time, too, because she was learning other ways of communicating the Scientology way of communicating, which is very in your face.

So that became dinner table conversation. How can this happen that people can just take over someone's mind and convince them that something is true. That's really not true. That's totally the opposite of what is true. And then. Because I then was raised hearing about this and that there are many groups that do their recruiting also on college campuses, and they use front names, I then went to college, and I saw it.

I saw these groups with their front names that I had learned, and they're at the student union, you know, passing out their pamphlets having people join, taking them on weekends, the bus picked up in front of my dorm, and I remember, because I was now cult educated, [00:06:00] I said to these people, Where are you going?

And they said, Oh, we're going on a church weekend. What church is it? We don't know. Really? You don't know. And where are you going? Well, we're going to the mountains. I go, you know, that's not a place like mountains are these geographical structures and geological entities. That's not a place. Do you know where you're going?

Is there going to be a phone there? Like, how are you going to leave? And they just thought I was being a drag. And I remember the leaders coming on the bus and asking me who I was and why I was harassing the people who were going. But I thought some of them are going to be dropping out of school after this and needing to show their devotion to this group and not school because that's what would happen.

Suddenly these people were gone. Yeah. And then. So there are just two more parts of this story, and it really is, this is a shorter version. When I then went on to grad school to become, to, to become a therapist, to learn [00:07:00] counseling, there was a, a group therapy course where you learn to do group therapy that turned out to be run like a cult.

The leader of it, who was the teacher, used, utilized almost every technique of influence and manipulation. And that was just her personality and I did a social experiment in that class, which was interesting because I noticed. This was the year before my dad passed away the year before I broke up with my boyfriend the year before my favorite dog passed away like I was just on the cusp of going through lots of trauma.

Yeah, but until then life had been okay, but we were supposed to share our traumas. And if we didn't have trauma to share like if we hadn't gone through abuse or something, we were withholding, we were being resistant to the process. And then I could see people folding like I could see them making stories up just to be liked.

And then they would be hugged by the people in the group. Thank you for [00:08:00] trusting us with your trauma and with your, with your past. So people were just crafting stories to please the teacher. I thought, wow, this is happening in a therapy class. I remember talking to my Dean about that. He was actually a little alarmed and I did one of my, I did my dissertation on what happened in that class for that school.

That was controversial. But then I, I thought, you know, I want to do this work because there were so few resources for people and. I, yes, I want to do general counseling. I still do some general counseling, but about 80 percent of the counts counseling I do is former cult stuff. And then I start that they were looking for a clinician at a place called the cult clinic in Los Angeles, which was effectively shut down by Scientology.

But that was my first taste of harassment, Scientology harassment, which did scare me. I mean, they had. discredited LAPD officers that they hired to harass people to follow people. They were scary, [00:09:00] scary mofos, if I can say. Leaning on my car when I'd come out of the office following me home sending people into poses clients.

And I get this note saying, just to let you know, we're watching and listening and thought, what the hell is this? And so I remember staying home for about a week, my father had passed about a year before this, and suddenly I heard his words, which were, you can't let the bullies win. That was his way of looking at the world like you cannot let the bullies win.

And I thought, Okay, but I need a week. I just have a week. I'm like talking to him wherever he is. He's already passed. And I had to get myself together and See what my rights were. Yes, we're not. Take a little break, right? Yes, we're not letting them win, but I do need a break. I need a break, because they're outside my house, and I need to know if I'll be protected.

I need to contact the police. And then I went back to work, and I thought, what I'm dealing with in terms of harassment is only slightly what former Scientologists deal [00:10:00] with. And other people from other groups. They're pretty intense. Yeah. Scientologists are very intense. Really intense.

Katherine: Stopping them is intense, right?

Mm hmm.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah. They've complained to my board many times to try to have my license taken away. They, they're no nonsense, but it's what happens to me and to a couple of my, you know, colleagues. And, and I think to me, especially because where I started doing my work, my counseling was very close to the Scientology buildings in Hollywood.

So I started working with a lot of Scientologists and have continued working with them. So they don't like me, but okay. So that's, that's sort of how I got started in this. So yeah. And then how many years would you say

Katherine: that this has been like the folks? Is it kind of been from the

Rachel: beginning? Yeah, it's been since I've been doing counseling.

It's been 32 years and it's morphed over time in that before it really was. It was, I thought this was fascinating. [00:11:00] This was a human rights issue to me, especially the way in a lot of these groups that women were treated and children were treated or mistreated, neglected and, and then over time it morphed to include now people who have been in relationships with narcissists because I would do a talk on cults or something and someone would call me and say, that sounds like my husband.

Oh, what do you mean? And I kind of learned from people responding to my words about cult saying, no, that was my family that or that was my relationship. So I realized to now with. You know, with political landscape and so many people having polarized views of things and group think that I think is very scary.

That's happening right now in the world to that I care about this on a micro level and also macro that. As the descendant of Holocaust survivors, I'm, I care a lot about group think and how people can be, kind of, how you get to

Katherine: that place. It

Rachel: doesn't Right. Caught up into a ffr, the [00:12:00] torch and pitchfork way of Right.

And then also still on the micro person by person listening to what they've been through and trying to help them individually.

Katherine: Mm-Hmm. Two, two observations. First of all. I noticed that when you were talking to those people who were getting on this bus to go to the quote unquote mountains, and that your father's approach to your sister, a lot of questions, there was like a lot of asking questions and I sure I'm sure we'll get into that.

In just a minute, but I, I noticed that and then also I do appreciate that you address the fact that like a narcissistic relationship can have that similarity because I feel like I know like in the world that I work in, we have a much better, a broader. view of like what a cult can be, what a high control relationship can be, and what a high control religion can be.

But most folks [00:13:00] still think of a cult as like something happening in a bunker somewhere, or out in the desert, and Expanding what that can be and what that high control relationship can be. And there are so many people who experienced that, but then have that very, just invalidating experience of like, nobody knows what this is like.

It feels like a cult, but I can't call it a cult because it doesn't look like this. And, and so I appreciate that. You made that connection between that narcissist and that cold, cold experience. The impact can be very, very similar.

Rachel: The impact is very similar.

I think because not every cult is run by a narcissist. Some really are. You know, they have their delusional disorder and they get people into this diagnosis that is called fully I do, which is shared psychosis. Like they invite people who are maybe vulnerable to that way of thinking into their psychosis, but by [00:14:00] and large, I'd say a good 90 percent of cult leaders have a narcissistic bent.

And so then. Whether it's your partner, your parent, even your child, there's some people who contact me because their children are narcissistic and run their life. Because that it's the same disorder that's prompting it, you're going to have similar techniques. Like they've read the same manual. It's kind of amazing.

And, and then when you have similar techniques of, of manipulation, gaslighting, all of it, you're going to have similar outcomes. So it could be a one on one situation or it could be hundreds of thousands of people.

Katherine: Yeah, and that can be helpful for someone who is recovering from that type of relationship, like even looking for someone who has the high control experience when they are looking for a mental health professional.

Right. That would be maybe not necessarily just a narcissistic relationship, but someone who has that experience might be able to relate with that a little more. One of the things that's unique about your story is you didn't get into [00:15:00] this demographic because you had a personal experience being in a cult.

So I think that's really unique. I feel like everyone that I know who gets into this demographic also had an experience. In it makes your story very unique to me, but then also, what are some things that you have learned over the years from your clients about what they need for

Rachel: recovery? Right. It's a great question.

So yes. And it, it is unique that I haven't. Been in one myself, and I think that's why I work almost equally with the families and friends of people who are in situations like this or in relational situations like this and have a webinar for them too, because I was. One of those, like being on the outside, needing to figure out how to have these conversations, how to manage the anxiety that comes up when you see your loved one getting slowly stolen away from you.

And you don't [00:16:00] know what this forces that's on them and how to. See if you can get them back and if it's even possible and learning about the ways to communicate that are in a kind of counterintuitive way that are specific for this has been something I noticed from my own family, but also now for further doing this work and learning about that.

So, right. I mean, what. People need. It's interesting when you talk about doing this kind of counseling for the people specifically who were in situations like this, whether it is a cult or a relationship that took over their life, multi level marketing, abusive teen treatment place, whatever it was, or is, or having been with a therapist who was dangerous, which I talk about a lot.

I, well, it's unconscionable to me. To use that power in that way makes me mad. And so there are, [00:17:00] there are some things that. Are really important. I think for specifically when people are coming out of this, they need to know that they're believed because so often they're made to feel that they're exaggerating the story or they didn't get it right.

That's part of the gaslighting that they can't trust the evidence of their senses and how they are deciphering what happened. And they also will often underplay it. And really downgrade how much they've been traumatized because it wasn't supposed to be seen that way in the group like you're supposed to just deal with being abused, or you're, it's for your benefit.

You're supposed to be appreciative of being treated that way, being selected for something that turned out to be abusive. So. Abuse, neglect get underreported a lot of the time by people who leave. And what helps is defining for them what they've been through. Like, Oh, [00:18:00] that actually is abuse. That's why you're having nightmares.

That's why you break into a cold sweat when you hear someone who has similar voice to the person who did that to you. I want you to understand yourself and your reactions, and you'll only understand it if you know what happened to you. And also that it wasn't your fault. That you didn't bring it in, that it wasn't because of you.

Because, you know, within a cultic system, as you know, anything that's good that happens to you is because of the leadership. Anything that's bad is because of you.

Katherine: And because you didn't

Rachel: follow the leadership. Right, because you didn't follow the leadership. You, or you weren't feeling it in your heart or whatever, whatever it is, it's always back on you.

So to be able to have a clear sense of who the culprit is, and you can take it off of you is also a really important thing. It's also good for people to understand that they have strengths, that they have capabilities. That they can live in the world and be successful at it, even [00:19:00] though they have been told that they don't have these strengths and these capabilities and to have them understand why they were convinced of that and how that fed the.

Need of the leader to have you be dependent on them and to never want to leave because you don't feel equipped to be in the world. I think helping people understand why they were taught what they were taught and how it wasn't for them. It was right. It was for the control that the leader or the group needed to have over them.

That's really helpful just to understand the source and the reasoning for the things they were taught as truths about them. And I think it's really helpful to connect people with other people. That's why I run a support group. So people don't feel isolated and alone. And I will often talk to people about how they They are having trouble relaxing and resting because when you're in a cult, you're going, going, going, you're doing, doing, doing, you learn that you matter the [00:20:00] least and you don't have to sleep.

And it's fine if you're not eating and you're, you're supposed to somehow be devoted to the cause. And I try to shift that in my counseling work. So people know they are also the cause that it's important for them to take care of them. And that that's not selfish and it's not being lazy and it's not having pride.

It's not all the other things that it's called when you care about you. And that you have to be a good steward of the self in order to then do work that you might want to do that's in service of others, but it needs to happen in that order. And there's nothing wrong with you for doing it in that order.

And I also, I guess I want people to know that the world outside is actually not going to be as scary and not going to be as critical and not going to be as gossipy, like they'll have more privacy. There, there aren't people who are going to give them a hard time about everything. I have Clients who [00:21:00] panic if they're running even 30 seconds late for a session, or they come on to a zoom call a little bit late, or they come to the group a little bit late.

I'll sometimes see them in the waiting area on zoom and then they're gone. They're missing. And I realized they're panicking because they're sure. That I'm going to give them a hard time and I'm going to berate them for not showing their allegiance to this group and not showing that it matters enough for them to be there on time, all the things that they went through in their cultic group.

And they're also They've expressed to me they're worried about not showing up for the group because when they didn't go to things, that's when they were talked about in their absence and waited and given a hard time. So they were afraid of walking back into what suddenly felt like an unsafe. Situation.

So I let people know we do not talk about you. And if someone does want to talk about you while you're not here, if it's something positive, like, oh, it's so [00:22:00] nice to meet that woman last time. And I hope she comes back. That's fine. And I'll be happy to tell you about that. But, you know, someone who just wants to.

Berate. Not allowed, not allowed. So it always needs to feel safe. You just, if they're doing this work and learning from people and what makes them so anxious and you just see how much they've been mistreated and how much they've been under a microscope that has been so unfair to them and has made them so tense and so worried needlessly.

Katherine: Absolutely. So I heard you say. Believe them. Let them know that you believe their story. I heard you say, give them like language to name what happened and then validate even that it was like a big deal, like naming it as abuse or naming it as as gaslighting. I heard you say, help them access.

Like the internal [00:23:00] resources that they have and access their own, you didn't say the word power, but their own, their own resources, their own internal resources reframe things. So learning that like outside world is not scary and, and just having that, like a lot of like compassion for. The trauma that results in anxiety or fear or mistrust or anything like that.

All like super, super, super important things. And I just think about like your support groups and like the courage that it takes for someone to show up to something like that when they have, a lot of times it is a group. Right. That happened in the first place. And that can be very scary, yet such a huge part of the recovery process to be able to engage with a group again.

And yeah. Oh yeah. Again,

Rachel: very, very important. Yeah. There are people also who. [00:24:00] Have been in support groups that have really, really been unhealthy. And also ones where they dealt with being in a treatment center that were kind of patterned. Well, they took off from Synanon, which started this this horrible practice.

It was a cult in California started a whole horrible practice of something called the game where. You are supposed to berate people in a group. You're supposed to shout at them, call them things. They would sometimes need to grovel, like walk around on, on their hands and knees to show that they were they knew they were less than or they needed to wear a sign around them, around their neck that would say something.

It could say whore, could say anything and whatever they may have been labeled that day. I mean, it was, so it was attack. Therapy. I don't even want to call it therapy. And so people coming out of that have interesting reactions when I do counseling with them. [00:25:00] And, and what is one of the reactions that's kind of sad is that some of them think that I don't care about them because I'm not shouting at them.

Translation. I get that

Katherine: though. I, I totally get that. Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah. Right. That was the justification for someone being cruel. Like, no, this is for your benefit. And so I remember one person saying, I don't know if this is going to work because you've never raised your voice, but it's like someone raised by an abusive parent, you know, like this is how I show you that I care.

It's, oh, it's such a perversion of how it should be.

Katherine: No, absolutely. No. And I, I mean that I'm remembering how like I migrated to someone who was like a known abusive pastor in the evangelical world is Mark Driscoll. And I remember migrating to him as a leader because he yelled from the pulpit and because he was so angry from the pulpit.

And I had without realizing it been conditioned to see [00:26:00] that a strong, trustworthy leadership in it. I was like very just Very disorienting when I realized that that happens and that I like read into that anger as good leadership. It totally, totally, really.

Rachel: Okay. Yeah, it's really terrible. And people get that they, they then wind up sometimes in relationships with people who are really mistreating them because.

That was translated as love. That's another thing to define. Like, what is love? And what can that look like in a relationship? And what are rights? I mean, I remember one time, I, I was flown to Texas to help with the, the raid, which had already taken place on the FLDS compound. And I, I don't like raids, even though I've worked with a lot of people who did feel traumatized by [00:27:00] them, but also relieved knowing that there were people out there who cared about what was happening behind closed doors.

Like it's very mixed thing. So I wasn't involved in all planning it, but they asked me to come in to, to help to train the social workers who were working with the people who had been taken off the camp compound even temporarily. And they were talking to these women or young, well, they're really still girls who are these sister wives about rights, that they had rights.

And they were looking blankly and and they said, they, they don't seem to believe us that they have rights. I said, They don't know what rights are. We have to go back. We have to teach them that there are these things that are called rights. That, that there is things called boundaries, that you have the right to say no or to control your body.

But that's not true in their group. So they're not gonna believe you that they have these rights. They probably don't even know that there's this thing called a constitution. Mm-Hmm. . [00:28:00] That says that they have rights that are legally protected. And they don't even

Katherine: have a

Rachel: concept for it. Right. And that if they were to impose those rights, they would be abused or they would be kicked out.

And so it's not safe for them to have them. So we can't jump in assuming that they've had the same life and same education and same exposure. Like we have to educate them about the fact that these things exist. And that maybe that will help them leave at some point, knowing that these things exist, but only outside the compound.

Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know that. You and I probably come from the same position of just because someone has a credential doesn't make them someone as as you as you discovered with these social workers doesn't make them equipped to work with this demographic. But if someone were to be interested in working with this demographic and wanted to.

Equip themselves and get the resources to be able to work with this demographic. [00:29:00] What would you point them to and what would you direct them to? And what are some recommendations for things that they could pursue to become equipped?

Rachel: Okay. I think it's a great thing. And yes, just because someone has, has initials after their name doesn't make them healthy people.

And I have seen that and I've seen it for people who have dealt with abuse at the hands of psychiatrists who have an MD and You know have these very advanced degrees, but they have a disorder that makes them totally misbehave. So, and, and there are people who don't have credentials who I think have been great.

So it's still buyer beware, unfortunately, even it's, it's important just to be a smart spiritual consumer and a smart therapeutic. consumer. I think what people also need to know is that now there are a lot of people who are running what they're calling support groups, and they're not necessarily credentialed people.

And some run a lovely group, but they're not quite sure what to [00:30:00] do when there is an issue. And they'll sometimes call me like this happened and then someone felt ganged up on and we started talking about someone. Thinking it would be helpful, but then they felt traumatized and like, it can go down kind of a rabbit hole if there isn't someone who's had training in how to run a support group.

So you want to go to someone who's had training and also there are people who have left cults who will sometimes run them as cults. That's how they manage, right? That's what they know. Yeah. And then there's a group of favorites and that, you know, and they feel, they know it and other ones are feeling ostracized.

It's very culty and they're feeling judged. So see how you feel. Know that if you get involved in a group, that's not your only option. You can go shopping around, don't owe them anything. You don't have to keep coming back if it doesn't feel safe. There is, this needs to be part of. The curriculum for social work schools.

Katherine: Oh, my gosh. Yes, right. It does because it's [00:31:00] so common.

Rachel: It's it's so common. I'm sure you've had the experience. And if you talk about this issue, invariably, when I'm out somewhere and someone asked me what I do, there's at least one other person who's going to say, Oh, yeah. I was in something or my family member was like, it happens so frequently now that I think it should be curriculum and for people who are learning to to become therapists of any sort.

It's just really not, and it's still not seen as something really as important as it should be. I've, I've taught a class at. USC about how to run support groups for people who have been abused in groups. But it's just, they'll invite you with just that

Katherine: extra awareness of like, they're coming into this and they're instantly going to feel anxious because and just that extra layer of awareness that someone who has never had that experience would have no idea that someone would come in to that

Rachel: environment.

No, right. It's it is. It's a niche. And and I'm [00:32:00] just I'm asked when I'm asked, but most of the time not because they have other things that they think are more important to teach them and maybe they are. But still, this happens. And so the there is a program out of England run by Colleagues of mine who are lovely and wonderful have had a lot of experience.

It's through the University of Salford and I think you can take courses online. It's a master's in coerce coercion and coercive control. And It teaches you about what that is. I don't know to what degree it teaches you to do the counseling piece, but it is a master's in it. So you have a good framework for understanding it.

And it's new few years old, and I there need to be more programs like it. But I think If people want to go to conferences, or if they want to attend like the International Cultic Studies Association conference online, where there is a section that is [00:33:00] for professionals, how you do this work, I do some lectures on it, how you also do interventions how they're different than regular interventions and, Yeah, just understanding the nuanced differences in this work is important and to understand why those things are important.

So I think attending conferences, if you want to learn reading some books, I'm in the process of writing one that is going to be about my counseling work. So hopefully that will be out soon. I hope. And, and. It will be a little bit more of like a how to this is what happened to this person. And this is how I thought to help them.

And because that's missing out there. So, yeah, so I think this program in England and also attending workshops at This at the International Cultic Studies Association Conference, which is yearly, is a good place to start. And and then reading books, you know, from people who are professionals who are talking about how they do this [00:34:00] work.

I, because again, there were so few resources I really have learned most of what I've learned. From my clients really taking notes, like, okay, that worked better than this. And why understanding it. And, you know, we've been a learner of the

Katherine: people that you're working with. And that sounds like that's part of your story is you learned from the actual people that you were working with.

And, and that can be, I think, really empowering to, I think, for someone on the client side of. This person maybe doesn't understand, but they are, they want to understand and

Rachel: they want it. I mean, now I can come in feeling that I have an expertise, which is great, but I also come in with enough humility to know I don't know everything, which is a really important thing for someone who's been involved in the cult to see that someone coming in, who seems to have this position of authority is saying.

I'm open to you teaching me.

Katherine: [00:35:00] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Rachel: And I'm open to being wrong. I'm not an actor on you. Right. Exactly. I can know about cults, but I don't know you. And I don't know what's going to work for you. Some of this is going to be trial and error. I'm not going to punish you or, you know, I'm not going to stop treating you because something I provided for you turned out to not be the best thing for you.

And you let me know that I'll be happy that you let me know that so we can fine tune it for you. But yeah, that dialogue does not happen.

Katherine: In the cold, like, yeah, like you have something to offer here that I don't have and like having that kind of relationship when you don't know and when it isn't your expertise, but it is something that you're interested in for something for someone who is.

And I, I mean, I encounter this so often just with like [00:36:00] my clients and it typically comes up even just in their first initial consultation of trying therapy and admitted and immediately realizing it's not helping and it's not the person doesn't get them and doesn't understand and then. to have to go through the process of finding someone, you know, when you're, when you're traumatized and when you're exhausted and we're just trying to figure things out, what are some guidelines that you can give to someone who is looking for a mental health professional to help them that they can maybe look for just immediately when they.

Look on someone's website and questions that they can ask during the consultation to kind of help them narrow down someone who might be able to

Rachel: help. Right. So first, you know, I think you and I are going to be equally reactive to going onto people's websites who seemed who, [00:37:00] who are trying to come across.

Like they have the answer. They are the one. And they need to be talking all about their credentials and how they can provide something that no one else can. That is a huge red flag because they're never also typically going to be able to admit that they were wrong because they know it all. So if it feels collaborative, collaborative.

Like we will work together to help you get to where you want to go that kind of language. Like, I'm going to hold your hand while we kind of muddle through this together. I can offer what I know, but this is something that, you know, I'm not going to be coming in and I'm going to be the expert and you have to listen to everything I say.

And so, yes, if it has that kind of we're working together language. And that I'm open to hearing, and I want to understand you so that I can help you. That is, it's nice that you get to be, as the former member or the person who's been through this, you get to be the expert in [00:38:00] that space too, because you know your story.

And you know what you feel, you intuit that you need, and you want a therapist to be open to that. It's also important for people to notice when they first start going to a therapist, if they get the sense that they have to make a commitment for a certain amount of time. That is something I think people should not necessarily agree to cause then you're locked in and then if you decide that it really isn't working for you, you might feel like you have to keep coming back because you're of that mindset of you made a commitment and you have to stick with your commitments, but it only matters if it's helping you.

And so you want it to be open ended. you want to be careful to, to not work with a therapist who keeps changing the subject. Like if you really want to talk about your cult experience or the manipulation that you went through or something that's specific to your experience and the therapist just isn't trained [00:39:00] in that.

And instead of saying, you know what, you have a book that would be good, or maybe I'll do some research or cause I have.

Katherine: Right.

Rachel: And I've had therapists contact me and say, listen, I'm not telling you, I want you to meet with my client. We have a good relationship, but I don't know about this. Can you guide me on this?

And can you give me some resources? I really value that. I think that's really wonderful. So if the therapist is open to learning so that they don't keep just kind of ignoring when you bring it up, cause it's not their expertise and saying, well, now let's just talk about your mother. Or whatever, like the usual suspect.

No. And you want a therapist who honors your boundaries. And if you have a therapist who asks you questions and you don't know if you want to share so much information about yourself, even though in the cult you've been trained to share everything with anyone at all times, because you have to If a therapist says, actually, that's, I'm, I'm kind of glad that you're saying [00:40:00] no, because you don't really know me yet and you don't feel comfortable talking and you don't know how I'm going to respond to your information.

That's good, then that's safe. And so what can I do, I'll ask my clients is what can I do to provide a feeling of safety here for you to let you know that I'm going to handle what you tell me. In a healthy way and something that would feel safe for you. There are therapists and I've told people this. If you have a therapist who tells you, who uses either of these two words, which are like nails going down a chalkboard for me, resistance and withholding.

Katherine: If they tell you that

Rachel: you are resisting or you're being resistant to this process or you're withholding information from them. Right. Just because you're saying, yeah, I don't know if I feel like force. Yes. Yes.

Katherine: And it also indicates that they're almost taking offense. that the client doesn't trust them.

And someone who is aware of this experience will know it is going [00:41:00] to take a lot for this client to trust me. So I'm not going to force them and I'm not going to push them. I'm going to let them lead. And how much they want to share and even just say that, Ooh, I felt my internal haunches. Yes. Wow.

Rachel: Right. And you, and that somehow the client also was told they need to make a commitment to this work. That this work is the thing that's going to change them. But that is just filled with too much ego and too much stress. And just let the person be and let them breathe and let them bring snacks.

Just let them relax. Right.

Katherine: . Maybe don't sip a glass of wine, but having a cup of tea is fine. Exactly. Yeah. I remember one one thing that I think my therapist said that felt me helps me feel really safe was I had mentioned sexual abuse pretty early on in our, our therapeutic relationship together.

[00:42:00] And it was probably a good year before I was like talking about something else. And she was like a while back, you mentioned the sexual abuse. There's a chance that that has some you know, impact on what's happening here. Like, would you mind sharing about that a little more? And so I did. And then at the end of the session, she said, Do you want to bring this up again, like if it feels important to you or do you want me to ask you about it?

Like, would you prefer to bring it up or would you prefer for me to ask you about it? And that just felt, I just felt very empowered with that. And just like, she was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave this in your hands. If you want to bring it up again and you want to talk about it, we will. If you. Want me to ask you about it?

I can do that as well. And it just felt, you know, just very, it felt very empowering and it, and it definitely created a sense of safety for me. And I've [00:43:00] definitely like implemented that in, in with my own clients too. Just like, is this, is this something that you want to talk about more or do you want to just wait and bring it up?

Later when you're ready and you just giving, yeah, just empowering the client and when they have been so disempowered and teaching them little ways that you're allowed to take this back, you're allowed to take this voice back. That's great. That is great. I, yeah. Is there anything else that you want to share about what a client might need or what a mental health first step?

Professional might need in.

Rachel: In this process, so starting with mental health professionals, there are going to be times like I've, I've gotten to a certain degree desensitized to hearing some pretty horrific stories. I was not at the beginning, of course, but it is good if you find that. You know, you want to be open to this [00:44:00] population.

Sometimes they've been through really horrendous, horrendous things. And so it's good. It's important for you to take care of you. And if this really is too much for you, or if it's too triggering, cause you went through something similar, get more support for yourself. So that you can be able, right. Or you can choose if there are certain parts of this population you don't want to work with, that wouldn't be healthy for you.

And it's okay to say that. It's okay to know that. And then it's good for you to have a resource list, because I never liked saying no to a client when I didn't have someone else to offer them, you know, like, how about try this person. And so then if you know that you're starting out and you're still very much affected by the things that you're being told.

It is good to have at least three or four other names to refer people to for those cases and really, you know, again, you know, really make sure that you feel protected along the way until you get [00:45:00] maybe a little more able or desensitized. For clients. I think it's really good to know that, at least the way I talk about it that.

They're the ones having the power in that space, and they might not know it, but I will let people know that like I make sure it's where it might. I'm not at all I don't have OCD traits sometimes I wish I had more of them in my house would be cleaner. But Right. But, I measure the furniture in my office, which is a weird thing. That might sound weird, but I make sure that my therapy chair isn't higher than the other chairs or the couch. Like I want us literally to be seeing eye to eye that we are equals here. And not lording over them just because I'm in my chair, you know, I don't have power.

I will tell clients that I'm going to provide for them. My 31, 32 years of experience, but that they're hiring me, they're in charge. If I'm not giving them what they want, [00:46:00] they don't have to stay. It's like if you take your car to a mechanic and they don't fix the problem, go somewhere else. Or say, this is actually not what I'm needing.

I'm needing more of this. Like, guide me to know what you would like, and then maybe I can provide that with more clarity, and we can work on defining what might be helpful here. But really, you can call the shots. And you can, you know, you can cancel your next appointment and that's okay, if you have stuff to do you can, I think it's also important when someone has been involved in a cult, sometimes they get very attached to the next person who is guiding them and leading them and they can get dependent.

And it is my job, I think, to be a transitional object. And it's fine if people want to be dependent on me for a time, but I will say at some point, even though I know you're calling me to ask me what decision you should make about something, I would love it [00:47:00] if you, if we could work together where you will feel confident being the one where you can ask yourself that question and feel good about the answer you give yourself and trust it.

So I can be that person for a while. But part of the goal here will be to hand the baton back to you, you know, I think it's an important message.

Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And not just. I think that that for someone looking for a mental health professional that they can work with to, as you mentioned that collaboration and that mutuality and, and, and someone not showing up in that space and like I am the expert I know.

This is what you need, et cetera, et cetera. That that's a good distinction to make. And, and you can typically sense that a little bit in that first meeting and that first consultation. Not always, but I feel like that's [00:48:00] something that that will come up. And. Yeah, and I also feel like it's, it's totally fine to ask a mental health professional in that initial consultation what are some books that you have read about this?

What is, what is training that you have had on this? When you say that you're trauma informed. What does that mean exactly? Have you had training in that or is it just, you know what trauma is, you know, like, like having that you can ask those questions right out of the gate and and that's okay.

And a good mental health professional is not going to get defensive.

Rachel: Right. Even if people want to take a break, like I'll say sure. I mean, of course I don't even have to give them permission. They can take a break whenever they want, but if they want to see if they are able to take what they got from therapy and kind of just Use it on their own and, [00:49:00] and feel like they're able to call the shots in their life and see what they can do by themselves.

I think it's really important to have people have that time. And then there's no shame in calling me and saying, well, something came up. And I realized I'm not equipped for that thing that just came up yet. So can I come back for a while? And yeah, I mean, you know where to reach me, you know, you have my number if you need to come back, great.

But, and then when you're done with that, feel free to, you know, I also, I don't mind collaborating with other professionals. So if someone does EMDR, and I think that would be really good for. Client, then I'll, I will refer them or say, sure, they can go see someone else. The only time that becomes an issue is if someone else is seeing someone who I think is fraudulent in some way, like they're consulting with their psychic, you know, who's telling them that they don't need counseling.

They just need to pay the psychic 10, 000 and they will free them of their negative energy. Okay. Then we're going to have a discussion [00:50:00] about that. But if it's someone healthy. Who is an adjunct. I think part of the wisdom that we have in this world is knowing who our resources are and utilizing them.

And so I'm, I never feel in competition, but I will warn someone if I think they're getting advice from someone who is taking advantage of them.

Katherine: Absolutely. Well, this has been amazing. And I know that. Both mental health professionals and folks looking for one are going to find this episode very, very helpful.

If folks want to know more about you and the work that you do, where is the best place to find you?

Rachel: Right. So you can listen to my podcast. It comes out each week. It's called indoctrination. It's on every platform, as far as I can tell, which is lovely. And I can be reached. All my information is on my website, Rachel Bernstein therapy.

com. I'm Los Angeles based, but I work with people all over the world. And I have this support group. That's every other Wednesday [00:51:00] night on zoom. And I work with families with people who are trying to reach out to loved ones. Trying to plan a way to intervene if they feel they need to do that and doing just general counseling day to day in my office in Los Angeles but mostly still on Zoom.

And so, yeah, there are a lot of places to reach me and I'm excited to have people reach out if they think it would be helpful. Is

Katherine: your support group just kind of anyone can join at any time or do you have like Is it for like a certain amount of time and you

Rachel: just right. Yeah, that's a great question.

So it's open ended. But I just need to vet the person before because we have had issues with people just jumping on who were from a particular group and they were. spying basically on the group to see if former members of that group were coming to this and wanting to get their information. So I, as a safeguard talk to everyone [00:52:00] first to vet them before I give them the zoom link.

And and then I do have right of refusal, like if someone was pretending to be someone turns out that they're not and they really are there to wreak havoc, they're no longer invited back, it needs to remain a safe place. And it really has, except for Scientology at the beginning. And that's why I have that.

I have to have that interview process now because of them. But it's been great and it's been safe and it's a really nice feeling, nice kind of supportive, collaborative feeling in that group. But yeah, so people can join at any time. And it, people come when they come. It's very open ended and which I think people.

Value that there isn't the expectation and I'm not going to contact them. Like what was wrong? How come you didn't

Katherine: come? Yeah, that's great. And then one final thing you mentioned a [00:53:00] university that has a master's degree about coercive control I'd love to Drop that in the show notes as well. What was

Rachel: the university?

University of Salford. It's in England. And It's S A L F O R D. They have a program in coercive control.

Katherine: Alright, I will look that up and I will make sure that makes it in the show notes. Thank you so much for

Rachel: being here. Yes, thank you. Thanks for interviewing me. It was lovely to talk to you.

S5:E1 - Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month: You Are Not Broken - with Brian Lee

Katherine Spearing

New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other Side

Brian Lee shares his personal story of experiencing spiritual abuse and what led him to start Broken to Beloved, an online summit and support resource for survivors.

Brian Lee is a pastor, coach, and speaker. As a survivor of spiritual abuse and religious trauma, he has spent his time since leaving vocational ministry in 2021 working to provide recovery and resources for fellow victims and survivors. In 2023, he created and founded Broken to Beloved, a nonprofit organization that exists to help other victims and survivors through its Annual Summit and seasonal Cohorts, while also providing trauma awareness and safeguarding practices to pastors, leaders and churches.

Based in Richmond, VA, Brian loves to go on outdoor adventures with his family, explore their neighborhood, community, and city, find good parks, enjoy good food, and have fun together. As a coffee snob and addict, he could always use another cup.

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript (Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings):

Katherine: hey, Brian.

Brian: Hey, Katherine. How's it going? Going? All right. How about you? Doing,

Katherine: doing well, doing, doing okay for doing okay. Or a Tuesday.

Brian: It's just for the end of the month slash year slash the world is losing its mind.

Katherine: Right. I know like there's been a lot of moments this week where somebody will say something about Christmas and I'm like, Oh, that's, that's on Sunday.

Yes. Okay. We are, we are still, there is still Christmas. Yes. Well, thanks for joining me. I am really excited to talk to you about your summit that you are hosting and curating in January for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month. At the time this episode comes out, it will already be January. So I'm really excited to hear about that.

I got to participate in that [00:01:00] last year. We'll be participating again this year. Great time to just connect with other people working in this spiritual abuse, recovery, religious trauma, recovery space, and also. Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month for folks who are not aware is in January. And we were talking before we started recording about when we first heard about Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month.

When, when was it for listeners that you first

Brian: heard about it? I just learned about it last year because, and I, but to be fair, I've only been doing this work for about a year now. I wish I knew about it sooner. And I think we were both saying it's like, we can't find who originated this thing. But it's been around for at least 20 years, which to me is crazy.

Yeah. I learned about it because of Aaron hung, who's an artist who was doing that whole AZ trauma recovery series on her Instagram page. And I was like, spiritually, it'd be some awareness a month. That's a thing. And then the more I dove into it, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is absolutely a thing. And it's been around a long time.

Why do we not know more about it?

Katherine: Exactly. I was wondering too, when, [00:02:00] when did that book, the oldest probably. Documented writing about spiritual abuse is probably the subtle power of spiritual abuse. I

Brian: think that's what I was thinking. Yep. And that was, I think it was written in the 90s. I want to say, okay, I'm going to look for a publication date because I want to be sure.

But I remember reading it thinking I was like, did they just write this like a year ago? And it's like, no, it's been around for a very long time. Yeah,

Katherine: yeah, yeah. And then even just like the reality that PTSD. Was not an official diagnosis until the 80s.

Brian: Yes.

Katherine: Yes. We're very new in this trauma world. Yes.

We're all very new to this. This is a new, new territory for all of us. Did you, did you find the

Brian: date? Amazon says the publication date is 2005, but that seems late to me. I feel like it was before that. It has a very nice

Katherine: cover.

Brian: It does! Which is why I feel like it is. So now I'm opening my Kindle to look for the actual copyright date on the inside of it.

Yeah,

Katherine: maybe that was the most [00:03:00] recent

Brian: publication. That's what I'm wondering. Library, look for the yellow book right there. The yellow book. Yeah. That's what I call it. The yellow book. Copyright page. 1991. You were right. Boom. Boom. First time.

Katherine: First time. Yeah. So I guess that's the first time that that became something

Brian: that.

People and for reference to me that feels like 10 years ago, but it's 32 years ago.

Yes, I know that tells you how old I am feel like that long ago, but because it wasn't it wasn't

Katherine: Yeah, I know because i'm like i've lived Yeah, I've lived longer in the 2000s than I lived in the, in the, in the, in the 1900s, 1900s or so.

Brian: It's been a while. How dare you? Yes, we are, we are, we're getting, we're getting up there.

We're getting up there. Yes, yes we are. [00:04:00] Speaking of

Katherine: age, actually I have nothing. Nothing to say about it. I'm just trying to segue talking about broken to beloved, which is your summit that's coming up and to get us started. I would love to hear whatever you feel comfortable sharing about your spiritual abuse story and how can you, you said that you discovered this word, right?

Or this phrase, spiritual abuse, this term fairly recently, when did you, maybe just to start out, when did you first hear the term and did you have an aha moment like many of us

Brian: do? Gosh, when did I first hear the term? I honestly don't even know, but it was probably from one of the books that I started reading that validated that experience for me.

It might have been K. J. Ramsey's book The Lord is My Courage, and I read it more as a, oh, maybe this will help me in a [00:05:00] dark season, and that's one of my favorite psalms anyway, so, and then I didn't realize she was going to go into their whole spiritual abuse story, and then I am a person who reads all the footnotes and then goes and finds all the primary resources and reads those, so

Katherine: that's favorite reader.

They were like, we put this in here for you.

Brian: Yes. Well, and that's, I love footnotes. So, so because of her, I think is, is how I found the subtle power of spiritual abuse. And then from there, I went down the rabbit hole. I mean, something's not right. Redeeming Power, Church Called Tove, Try Softer, Narcissism Comes to Church, you know, all these books.

And now in the last two years, I've read over 40. Five books on that topic, which seems overwhelming because it kind of is, but it all came out of my personal experience, right? So I left my last church in July of 2021. I had been there for just about three years, I think. And I walked into that church.[00:06:00]

My wife and I have both moved here saying to each other it would be really nice if this works out And if it doesn't because we've already been hurt before I think we're done with ministry for a while Which feels kind of crazy to walk into a church saying that like this is the last stop Yes.

Basically. Yeah. Not indefinitely, not forever, but for a while, we're going to just give this a break because we're done. And so, you know, my story goes back over 10 years now, I think I worked at a Christian college as the marketing, as the graphic designer for the marketing department. I had also attended and graduated from that college, which isn't unusual.

But it was a completely different experience being a student there than it was being on staff there. And I didn't know what to do with the cognitive dissonance of looking at leaders that I respected and admired Who seemed to preach the gospel and talk about servant leadership and humility and all these things But then I would be sitting in meetings I was like I don't know who this person is who is so [00:07:00] angry and belittling and demeaning and authoritarian and all these pieces And so finally leaving that environment I need to ask you a

Katherine: question, just like following up on that, because I feel like that's such a common theme of like the, what you preach and what you teach is not who you are.

And I just, I just hear that all the time. And just was talking to someone about the other day about her father, who was a pastor and he. He was a pastor and he would preach these things about like parenting and then he would like not be that type of parent. And I'm just curious from the experience that you had what, what is your take on that of like, why, like, you obviously know what's right.

Where, where is this disconnect happening because you can preach it enough to convince people then what's happening here. What's your

Brian: [00:08:00] take on that? My take for the last two or three years now has been, it all boils down to the need for power and control. And this message is going to work and this message is going to work.

And so the secondary or maybe even tertiary word that comes out of that is optics. It all comes down to optics and the way things look and appear so that I can maintain power and control. And so if I can maintain this image of, then I will continue to have power and control and influence over these people as long as they don't see behind the curtain.

And if they do see behind the curtain, it doesn't matter because I control them anyway because I'm their boss, right? Or because I am their spiritual authority or leader or whatever it is. So I, it's wrecking. Man, there's so many ways I can go so the last pastor I had would often say things like when I first started.

It's like you have to recognize the hats that you wear when you walk into a room. So I know that I'm the [00:09:00] pastor. So I know that there's a power dynamic. So I had to be aware that when I'm leading a conversation or that there's going to be a shift in something somewhere. But then this is the same guy who would absolutely manipulate that power dynamic.

Yeah, or pretend that he was the servant or the victim or the low man on the totem pole is like you don't get it both ways. Like so. So I know that you cognitively know these things to be true. And yet I see you do the polar opposite. And then use those things to twist them to your advantage. Yes. In the way of whether ignorantly or intentionally, both are worse, harming someone else in the process.

Katherine: Yeah, and that is the crux of spiritual abuse and why it is devastating and so damaging and so complex and so confusing is like these people are preaching these good messages that they are aware are quote unquote good messages, but [00:10:00] using that intentionally to manipulate and control people. So then these good messages.

suddenly become infused with this thing that makes us just terrified.

Brian: Poison. It's poison.

Katherine: Yeah. And we're just, we're just like, I can't even engage with this, even though some of this stuff is really good, you know, that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and yet it just causes this. Massive cavern of, of just fear and doubt and trauma.

Brian: Yes, I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from, too, is because, because so much of it is truth, right? Or is based on quote, good intentions or scripture or whatever it is, but then you see it manipulated and twisted. So now you don't know what to believe or what's true or good anymore.

Right, and you can't

Katherine: trust good people who are saying absolutely, it's like absolutely walk into a room and you're like, are they good or [00:11:00] not, you know, just, just being able to trust, even just what people say and like, and then you're kind of in evangelicalism and church culture, you like you walk into a church and and everyone's believing the same thing.

Well, Are, are they, are they, are we, are we all on the same page here? I talked to someone the other day that like teaches their children just because someone is a pastor doesn't mean they're interpreting scripture actually accurately. And I was like, okay, that's a very wise thing to teach your child, but so sad that you're saying.

has led you to teach that to your child.

Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Same. Well, and I've heard, I've heard parents and other people just like, because normally we instruct our kids to pay attention or listen to the grownups. And I've heard other grown up, other adults and friends say, it's like, actually, that's not always true because grownups won't always tell you the right thing to do, or they might be wanting to hurt you in some kind of way.

And it's like, I hate that we have to teach our kids that, but it's, that's [00:12:00] the way of the world today. And it's just really unfortunate and sad and grieving.

Katherine: Yes. When you're allowed to be afraid of Santa Claus. Yes.

Brian: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yes. That's okay if you're afraid. So trust your gut on that one.

Yeah. So anyway, so I went through that experience three times in three different environments. Three times. The first time, not necessarily in a row, but very close. So the first time at a college with an older leader, mentor, figure, admired. Second time with a, someone who very young and then I had a short break for about two years and then ended up where I was now with someone who's basically my contemporary.

But it's just getting it, getting hit from all sides of it. And I had had enough. So when we left, when I left the church in July of 21, I was like, I am absolutely done for a while and I've got to figure all of this out because I don't know why it keeps happening to me, you know, a result of all the gas lighting is like, it must be my fault.

So it must be something wrong in the denominator. [00:13:00] Exactly. And we had already been seeing our counselor therapist for a while. So we just kind of dove into the topic head first. It's like, I just, I'm in a tailspin. I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know which way is up right now, and I just help. Just help.

And she, she is a trauma informed therapist, which was extreme. I'm grateful for, because that's not why we started going to her. But that helped to process all of this stuff and then finding these books and finding these resources and chasing the rabbit holes got me to the place was like, okay, I can name spiritual abuse.

I can define it. I can name trauma and define it. And after about a year and a half. Of doing that work and processing through the trauma and the abuse. I was like, I think I might be in a place where I feel like I'm doing better and I'm not doing great, but I'm definitely better than I was. And I think I actually have a framework for how I want to help other people because everywhere around me, I see people dealing with the same thing.

And I hate that we're all here.

Katherine: [00:14:00] Absolutely. Did you have, when you were like doing research, did you have something that you, how are you defining it at the time? You just calling it church hurt. What were you Googling?

Brian: What were the things that you? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it starts with church hurts.

That's kind of the phrase that people hear. And then once I got my brain around the term spiritual abuse, I was like, Oh, okay. And then of course everyone quotes, the body keeps a score. So I forced myself through that one. And then through that one learned, learned trauma and then found books on religious trauma and started doing that whole thing.

So just coming up with definitions and just kind of collecting all these in a master Google doc for my brain and figuring it out from there.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And then at what point did you say? Yeah. So you said that I want to help people and help make sense of this. Where did the vision for broken to beloved come from?

Cause last year was the first year, right? April, wait, I guess that's this year, right? [00:15:00]

Brian: Yeah, it is. Yeah. April of this year. Yeah. 20, 23 at the time. So it didn't start as broken into beloved. It started as a six week cohort, which I call through, which is based on the children's book. Going on a bear hunt because we can't go around it.

Can't go over it. You just got to go through it. Right. And that came up from a friend, Amy. I was speaking at her summit. She does an Enneagram summit and I also do Enneagram coaching, but she said, what do you want to talk about? I was like, this sounds crazy, but. Do you want to talk like, can I talk about like spiritual abuse?

She goes, what? We have to do that. And so it just got all my wheels turning and then that's what kind of turned into the cohort. So I, I created a framework for a six week cohort to lead people. You know, and the story of that is like, because I over identified myself as broken for so long, I literally walked into this last church interview with the pastors and elders and said, Listen, they were like, hey, why should we hire you?

And my answer was, well, actually, you [00:16:00] don't want to hire me because I'm damaged goods. Let me just disqualify myself to you now because you don't want me because I'm broken and I'm really damaged. So you don't want me here. And so I recognize that I was wearing that as my identity. And so through KJ Ramsey's book, through all these other books that identified Wade Mullin, something's not right and all these other things, it's like, Oh, okay, so maybe I'm not the problem.

Yeah, maybe there's stuff broken in the system and it's not to say I'm not blameless for a lot of things because I certainly am but it was Developing a framework for what does it look like to move out of my brokenness and to actually name the things that have happened to Me because we can't heal what we can't name.

So naming things is really important Recognizing where I am in time and space so that I can pull myself to the present and recognize when I'm safe when I'm not When I'm triggered or activated when I'm not And then using all the polyvagal theory stuff that she includes in there. And then [00:17:00] recognizing how embodiment is so important and breath practices and mindfulness things and moving forward so that we can recognize, identify, and then embrace our belovedness as our actual identity, not our brokenness.

So the cohort came first in October of 2022. It went really, really well. I did it again in January of 23, which is the beginning of the year that we're recording. And so coming out of those two cohorts, I was like, man, it seems like there's an audience for this and a need for it. And all the books that I have read have done a really great job defining terms for me.

They do a good job of validating experiences and telling stories. I've read almost nothing that offers what now? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Like, I just don't know what to do. Like, okay, great. Thanks for sharing the information, but what do I actually do now? Cause I still feel stuck. So the whole point of the broken to beloved summit, which came from the bookends of the cohort of starting broken and ending beloved [00:18:00] was to invite all the authors that I had read and the resources that I had found online, get them in one place and just say, great.

What now? What now? What now? And to make it practical, right? So the whole tagline I use for everything is finding a pathway toward healing and wholeness. When

Katherine: you were describing yourself as broken when you would walk into these interviews, what did that mean to you? Was that yeah, expound on what that meant and then how is that showing up for

Brian: you?

I don't know if I've ever been asked that question. I just felt broken. Like my whole brain was. I'm just unsure of what to believe or what was right or wrong. I'm also an Enneagram One, which is very right wrong, black white minded. I always think I have to do things the right way. So for me It was always a, well, if I was fired from this place, or if I had to leave because I was so toxic, what did I do wrong?

But other people [00:19:00] loved me, and it was just this group, so maybe it was, maybe it was them, but maybe it was me, but I'm not sure, and I think I'm really good at my job. And people tell me I'm good at my job, but the pastor just told me I'm not and that he needs to replace me because the board told him so even though they've never given me feedback in any of my reviews that anything needed to change when I've been asking for them for years.

So it's, it's all that kind of stuff that in your brain messes with you. It's also the the second place that we left, we were friends with. The pastor and his wife, we graduated together. We were alumni together. I was like, we thought we were friends. We hung out at each other's houses. And then to do something like that and to feel so stabbed in the back, really It was a, it was just kind of whiplash, right?

It's like, what, what, what happened there? And so what's wrong with me and what's wrong with my relationships? Cause I thought we were okay, but apparently not because then this happens. So walking into this last interview to just say, Hey, I'm damaged goods. I'm broken. I mean, that's really what it was. And then I had [00:20:00] had two years at another church where I.

Genuinely thrived for two years. And I was like, Oh, there's actually a different way to do things. Yeah. And I didn't realize that. And then we experienced more trauma. One of our best friends passed away tragically in a car accident. And so that threw everything into tailspin and dealing with the aftermath of that.

So it was just kind of like, Hey, we're really not in a good place right now for a transition or for something to change. And yet I felt so. Bound is not the right word I'm looking for, but I'm going to use it by the whole idea of. If God wants to do something here, I don't want to close the door and say no.

And I don't say that to over spiritualize anything or myself, but it's just the words that came out of my mouth at the time. So we just kind of kept going with the process. And I remember the first several weeks slash months of having started this job,

just trying to be really vulnerable with people and honest, just like, listen, I, I don't come here pretending I'm perfect in any [00:21:00] way I'm really broken right now and we need help. Just so you know that, and I might have some answers or help for you, but I'm coming at it from a position of brokenness and the more I do this work, the more I recognize how okay that really is.

Katherine: Yeah, and it kind of sounds like as you're describing. What brokenness was to you? It sounds like trauma, but it sounds like internalized trauma of this is somehow my fault, like these outside messages and this trauma that I'm experiencing is due to something.

Brian: Yeah. Potentially. Well, and isn't that part of the toxic theology that a lot of churches teach is like that you are responsible for your sins and how they label everything as sin.

So if something bad happened in your life, it must be your fault because you weren't holy enough. You didn't pray enough. You didn't whatever [00:22:00] enough. Right. And it's like not. Not taking into account any of the effects of abuse where the abused actually did nothing. It's like when a woman gets raped, Oh, what were you wearing?

How did you contribute? What perfume do you have? It's like, come on, really? But that's where I was mentally, emotionally, all the things.

Katherine: Yeah, and that thin layer of, like, you must be sinning or God is, like, sanctifying you and is allowing these happen, these things to happen to, like, grow your faith or, you know, and, like, getting to that place, naming, as you said, getting to that place where you just, you're just able to point out it and to say this was not okay, period.

Like should never have happened. We should never should never have had to go through this like this was never an okay thing when you got to your church, the last church and you like was this the church that you were [00:23:00] saying I am broken and I am damaged goods. Yes. And then that

Brian: obviously didn't go did not pan out.

Was

Katherine: that used against you

Brian: was what part used against me? The fact that you were

Katherine: open about your brokenness.

Brian: Yes and no, I would say by the pastor. Yes, because I think in the kindest way I can say this possible, he's a master manipulator. So I think he knew us coming in and me saying those things up front and they pitched themselves very much as, oh, well, we are a healing church.

We're a place where people come so they can just receive and sit back and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And but then, you know, six months, two months, four months, two years later, they're saying, Oh, you're still praying for that thing. You're not healed yet. Are you not over that yet? Right? It's that kind of stuff.

And so those are the major red flags that go up. It's like, maybe this is not such a great place.

Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. So pitching themselves as a healing place and then, and then not. [00:24:00] Not so

Brian: much. Yeah, maybe you used to be but not so

Katherine: much today. How would you say? broken to beloved is Creating a space that you would say is just like healthier than that Like how how are you seeking to make that a healthy space for

Brian: people?

Mm hmm. That's a great question. Thank you I don't know cuz I'm still figuring it out. One of the first words that comes to mind is honesty and trying to be honest about Whatever it is that we are feeling or naming or experiencing because one of the things I've learned is that when we try to push away or repress any of those things, we often get ourselves in trouble because it's something is trying to be expressed there.

And it doesn't mean that we. Allow rage or ranting to take place just because because there are safe places to do to do that too, but probably not within a general community, right? Within an intimate relationship, [00:25:00] maybe, but not within a an open space. So I think the honesty piece is one of them. I think the openness is another.

Another word that comes to mind is kindness. I think there was an interview I did last year with David Gate, who does all that kind of typewriter poetry, which I love. And he said something that really has stuck with me ever since. And it's this idea that you can have all these progressive, or not progressive, all these fundamentalist Christians.

Or conservatives or evangelicals or whatever you want to call them who go through this process of abuse and or trauma and then deconstruction and then leave the church or whatever it is, but they don't actually examine or change anything and they just switch over to progressive liberalism or progressivism or whatever it is, and they're still fundamentalists at heart.

Absolutely. And I think the fundamentalist piece, the certainty that so many people carry. Doesn't make room for curiosity [00:26:00] and kindness which I think embodies a lot of what I'm trying to do is to be open and curious and kind because I also see voices online who just come across as angry all the time.

It's like, I get it. There's room for that. I'm angry too. But, and there are times that I drive by the church and I'm like, can we just burn it all down? Sure. Right. I feel all that, but it doesn't, I don't feel helped or served by it. Yeah. The Psalms, when I did an interview this morning, and the Psalms are 75 to 80 percent imprecatory and lament, so there's plenty of room for honest, raw emotion, but there's also a time and place for it, and it doesn't have to be public, and I don't, actually, here's, here's a good thing, I don't need everyone to agree with me.

Because your experience is your own and you need to figure out how you're going to process it. Here's how I've processed mine and I'm not going to prescribe anything to you that you should do it this way too. But I'm going to approach it with openness [00:27:00] and kindness and curiosity and hopefully safety.

Yeah.

Katherine: Yeah. And I think like that. Openness, kindness, curiosity can create that safety and, and, and having that space where people can come on their own journey and find their own, their own, yeah, like find their own, their own path. And, and, and that's also just sort of like, Anti the opposite of what we experienced in the church of like, only me, the person with the, you know, title can tell you what is helpful and what, what God is really saying and putting that agency back into each individual person is sweet.

Not what we were taught church and we were taught not to trust ourselves in the church context. And so, yeah, I love that, that openness, openness, kindness, and curiosity. I love it. What are some of your hopes and [00:28:00] dreams for the summit?

Brian: I hope that it's helpful. I hope that it feels practical for people. I hope that people walk away with a sense of, I mean, the three words I use most often are hope, healing, and wholeness. And I say that knowing that there is real harm done when others try to prescribe a timeline to your healing. That healing is not a destination, right?

And I think Laura Anderson just wrote about this in her book. It's like healing is not a destination. It's not an arrival point. It's something that we are just Doing probably for the rest of our lives. So when I say that, it's not like, Hey, show up to the summit and you will be healed. Absolutely not. But I do hope it gives you really practical tools that you can walk away with and say, Oh, this thing will help me.

Right. This thing will help me to take a step. And so we had 1, 200 people register last year, which blows my mind for trying something for the first time. [00:29:00] So I it would be great to have as many or more. Not because of numbers, because God knows I hate numbers because so many churches are driven by it. But the idea that people are helped.

And and moved in that direction of healing and wholeness and hope, I think so many of us who go through this kind of abuse or trauma walk away feeling so isolated, broken, like you're saying, with a lack of agency or not empowered that my hope is that you walk away with a sense of hope, feeling empowered and a sense of agency to take control of something in your life because so much of it has been stripped away from you.

I think those are the kinds of things I hope for. Yeah,

Katherine: absolutely. And I think even just the reality that we can like walk into a space and it's, you know, 18 or whatever speakers all speaking on something similar. And so there's this awareness that like, at least all of these people have, have, have some experience with this thing.

I've gone through this or understand this and that [00:30:00] validation of like, yes, oh, people are talking about this. And people see this as something that is really important and causes a lot of pain and deserves attention, deserves an entire summit. I think that that in itself is, is So validating and so helpful.

What's, what is some information about this? What can you tell us about how folks can find the summit register if they're ready for it?

Brian: Sure. We do have dates. We will be January 23rd through 26th. Last year was 3 days. I learned that was too short to pack that many speakers talking about trauma and abuse. So I'm spreading it out over 4 days and I'm inviting less speakers. So it's not so overwhelming every day.

If you go to BrokenToBeloved. org slash subscribe, you can join my mailing list, which is where I'll probably send information first. Or you can just follow me on Instagram, which are where I post when I have time to[00:31:00] at BrokenToBeloved.

Okay. All

Katherine: right. I'll all of this information in the show notes

Brian: so folks can read it. Thank you.

Katherine: And I'm very excited to be there and to be a part of it, watch all of the speakers. And is there anything else that you want to share about broken to beloved the cohort. Your journey,

Brian: anything? No, I, I mean, we are like you, a 501 C three.

So if you're looking for someone to support or an organization, this is the work that we're trying to do. So you can just go to same broken to beloved. org and you can find all the stuff there. I'm super grateful for you and your work and having stumbled across you last year. I, I love and support the stuff that you're doing as well.

Grateful to have you at the summit twice now. Um, And just love doing the work with you.

Katherine: Yeah, so I'm glad to partner in this with you as well. Thanks so

Brian: much. Thank you.

S4: E24 - The F Word (On Forgiveness) Season Finale with Connie Baker

Katherine Spearing

New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other Side

Forgiveness has often been used in the church to sideline and silence victims, either by perpetrators intent on controlling their victims or by systems of people who believe they’re doing the right thing.

Connie Baker, author of Traumatized by Religious Abuse and a therapist who works with survivors of religious trauma, joins Katherine for this important discussion on a topic that is nuance, personal, and definitely emotionally charged.

REGISTER FOR RETREATCON

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings

Katherine: [00:00:00] So I'm very excited to have this conversation. This is like, I have like a handful of conversations that ever since Uncertain started that I wanted to do, and one on forgiveness is one of them.

Connie: Yes. I love that. I'm so glad. 

Katherine: Forgiveness is a, I will probably talk more in this episode than I normally do because this is a subject that I am very passionate about the way that forgiveness has been misused and then also having a really genuine experience of forgiveness. Yes. That I feel like was real. Yes. And looks nothing like what I was told. Forgiveness is 

Connie: Right, right. To me, so much of it is dismantling what we think it is. So yeah. I'm excited to talk with you Katherine.

I mean, you're as much of an expert in this area as I am. It's like, you know, I do have some very strong feelings, which I think are very compatible. Yes. I, I think, but, and I've, you know, I've done, I've [00:01:00] done 18 years of clinical work to say, Hmm, I got some reasons why I think what I do, but I just want, I mean, yes, to me, let's make this baby a discussion.

Katherine: So yes, it's a, it's a convo, it's a conversation and one that we need to have because it's just, it's still so misused and I've had so many people throughout my life come at me to want to make sure a, that I have forgiven or that I want to forgive or that I'm not bitter. Right. But the standard of assessing.

Whether or not I'm bitter, have forgiven is whether or not I talk about what happened. 

Connie: Totally. Shut up. If you're, if you're not bitter, you can't talk. 

Katherine: Exactly. And so to, to realize that most people think forgiveness and bitterness means don't talk about it. And if you've really forgiven, then you don't think about it.

And it's just like in the past. Yeah. Something that never happened. So we're gonna get into this. I [00:02:00] love it. Let's do the, the kinda outline that I was thinking for this episode is as just kind of following the outline of your chapter in your book, the F word, which I love, and it's probably what I'll call the, the episode first talk about.

What forgiveness is not, and some examples what forgiveness is. Some examples, and then I would love to end, you have a self-evaluation at the end of the chapter, and I would love to kind of end with us sort of doing that and like how that might work for people. I have it written down so I could read it to you.

Connie: I just like, ok. Remind me. What are some words? Forgiveness that I prefer? Oh yeah. Do I need to, I like my, I like my questions. Do I need to forgive? Do I want to forgive? If I've decided to take a short step, what is my next step?

Good. I'm happy with that. Let's keep the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's keep the book available. 

Katherine: Okay. Alright. Let's start with what forgiveness is not how, what would you say? Forgiveness is not. And [00:03:00] then just like maybe an example of how you would describe that. 

Connie: Yes. Oh, forgiveness is not, and I love that we're starting here.

I love it because Katherine, you and I both know, there's so many things people think it is. I think first of all, when we're talking about religious abuse, forgiveness is not something that can be demanded or required of someone who's hurt us. It's not no period. Forgiveness, I think theologically as well as psychologically is something freely given.

Yes. Something that is, that comes from the person's coercion. If I heard a person and tell them, you've gotta forgive me. It just kind of disintegrates the [00:04:00] whole idea of what forgiveness, the, a beautiful forgiveness cannon should be. So there's one thing, and I think you, you and I both know so many examples of how, and maybe this is just a great place to start, how this is leveraged    .

By specifically leadership that, but it's also systemic. It's a two level thing where the leaders can say, you've gotta forgive me, which has all kinds of implications for them maintaining control. Yep. Because we'll get into what it's not here in a minute too. It's not necessarily reconnecting or reestablishing a relationship with that person.

We'll get there in a minute, but when it's demanded or our peers will say, you have to forgive because they are part of a system. Yeah. That supports that and, and says, you've gotta forgive and you've gotta get back into an intimate, [00:05:00] trusting relationship with that person if you've actually forgiven.

And so that demand and requirement for forgiveness, to me is number one. It is, forgiveness is not something that you can demand or require. So that I think is a foundation because those of us who have been around and probably listening to this podcast, know what I mean by leaders demanding that and systems that require it.

So, when a peer tells you you've gotta forgive. But they are speaking for the church authority, i e God.   It is still a power play. Yeah. It's still a power play and whether intended or not, doesn't matter. It's still a power play.   So that's the first thing.     Any other thoughts on that?

Katherine: Just, the verses that are popping into my head are the 70th times seven verse and you know, [00:06:00] forgive as God has forgiven you and the, as far as the east is from the West, God will remember your sins know more. And those are the verses that are used to support this belief system.

And it's so convincing. It's right, so convincing, and I'm so glad you said systemic, because it is systemic, it's embedded into it. When those verses pop up as they did just now for me when the forces pop up, what would you say to someone, how, how, how do they combat these things that have used? 

Connie: I say that is an, that is probably the question I.

And I want, if we can remember, maybe I should take a note. Let's ask that after we've gone through some of these ideas, honestly what it is Yes. What it's not can what it's,   I think both of those, because the problem with those verses is [00:07:00] these people are bringing a definition and assumptions    .

Around what forgiveness is. So I wanna circle back to that. 

Katherine: Does that sound okay? Yeah, no, definitely. Let's circle back in the, the. The way that this is like spiritually abusive is those verses like even that verse, far as the east is from the west, will I remember your sins know more.

It sounds like this just like, oh, beautiful, wonderful. You know, wiping the slate clean. And it starts from this place of just like this. Like really, you know? Oh, of course I want someone to do that for me. So of course I'm gonna do that to someone else. And that reality that it's weaponized. And when forgiveness is not what forgiveness is not, it's not a weapon and it's not meant to be used for coercion.

Connie: [00:08:00] Yes. And control. 

Katherine: Yes. Or silencing. So maybe we don't know what it is. Maybe we don't have a definition or anything, but if we feel like someone is coming at us, And, and trying to coerce us into an emotion or an action that doesn't feel aligned with the con with what happened in a situation of abuse.

Maybe we can't even name it as abuse, but if we're feeling coerced into that response, then that's just a pause. Just a pause right there and just say, something's not right. 

Connie: Huge pause. Something is deeply not okay. I think that's, we can say with confidence. The other thing that comes to mind is the way I hear forgiveness talked about in Christian circles. It's a cure-all. Yes. For the damage inflicted. In other words, I always use this example. That [00:09:00] feels a little absurd. And I use it cuz I want it to feel absurd. If you are going through an intersection on a green light and you are slammed into the driver's side with an a, a driver who is drunk and it slams in and crushes your upper arm, your ribcage, your hip cracks, your femur busts, and you've got, and you have some internal bleeding, they rush you to the hospital and they do all these surgeries and they're fixing you up step by step, and somebody comes to visit and they say, oh my gosh, how are you feeling? Well, ooh, okay, but boy am I still in a lot of physical pain. And the person looks at you and says, well, have you forgiven the drunk driver?

Katherine: You like it, it's just literally the same thing.

Connie: It's emotional pain. Yes. [00:10:00] In other words, there's this bizarre assumption that if someone deeply, deeply wounds you that when you forgive, you're gonna be great. You're not gonna feel pain, you're not gonna have any repercussions, you're not gonna have any trauma.

You're not going to have PTSD. Your brain wiring will not be affected because if you just forgive   All will be beautifully taken care of. And you shouldn't be sitting there in the hospital with all those bones broken if you've actually forgiven. And of course, that sounds so absurd and bizarre to us and correct.

It's crazy making Yeah. To say that, that forgiveness is just gonna fix it all and I'll feel great enough once I forgive. Now you and I both know, we were talking about something that both in the secular and religious realm, forgiveness is well studied. It's a beautiful, good thing done, [00:11:00] inappropriate places.

So this isn't, we're not down on forgiveness, but it has, it has huge limitations to trauma recovery. It is one piece of a very big pie, I think, of eventual trauma recovery. 

Katherine: It's a piece of the pie and it is reductionist to focus everything on recovery around forgiveness and to make that, to make that a requirement even for recovery.

I think it's like a separate thing and it is. Yet, it's always, I was watching the documentary on Michael Jackson's victims and Oprah Winfrey does an interview, like a follow-up interview to, to talk to the two men that were featured in the documentary. Two of Michael Jackson's victims and Oprah Winfrey has done a lot to raise awareness about mental health.

She does understand [00:12:00] a lot about trauma, but she ends up asking these two survivors if they have forgiven, and I just felt very defeated at the end that she would bring that up to these two people and, and sort of made it as like a marker of Right. The field. They were right. And the final question also carries the ultimate amount of weight.

Connie: Like not Okay. No.   

Katherine: Yeah. And, and like basically ending with, you still got some. Room to grow, you still, you still got some places to go. You're not fully healed yet because you haven't, you can't answer that question with this life. Right. You know, or, and, and then one of the survivors was like, I don't even really know what that word means right now.

Oh, oh, good for them. I'm really glad that they said that. But I think they were sort of portrayed as like, well, until you kind of [00:13:00] know what that means, you, you're still not healed, which they're not. Right. And, and we are not. And, and it does kind of, Draw a line in the sand like, once you can say you have forgiven, you've passed the line and now you're healed. Which is a whole other subject.

Connie: oh, totally. Yes, they do. They have overlap. Sure. Aren't they the same thing? Absolutely not. Yeah. There's, it's that, you know, that person laying in the hospital bed may not even have a big, have a hard time forgiving. Maybe it's like they're an addict. They have issues.

Stuff happens. There, depending on the person, it, there, you know, there's a range of how people respond, which are all okay. It's also okay to rage and be angry at that driver for a long time and if that's okay too. But does that mean that person is [00:14:00] out of the hospital because they kind of we're able, for whatever reason, their psyche could let it go.

Katherine: O know, I know. And it is as, I love the example that you gave of just the person being in the hospital because like forgiveness doesn't mean you no longer hurt. No, it doesn't mean you're no longer in pain and that you're not, you know, going to therapy for years, upon years, upon years to deal with the damage that was caused. 

Connie: The other thing that comes to mind is forgiveness often in our circles is, you know, or past circles, whatever. For some of us, it is equated with some really important delicate areas, and that is forgiveness is often equated with trust, intimacy and the big word reconciliation in Christian circles, which [00:15:00] all three of those have.

Have over, you know, those are, those are kind of a group of things. And let me say this right off the bat, I'll stand by This. Trust in healthy people is always earned.   Always earned. It's like, and, and they're can, we might throw out a little bit and trust somebody and see how they do with it, but only un unhealthy people, indiscriminately trust and, and, and, and as I say that, yeah, I was a recovering one of those.

I'm a recovering one, you know, I used to trust innately and just you're saying, but forgiveness. Is in a whole different realm. Intimacy, trust and reconciliation in, in my mind, should always be earned.

That is not dependent on me completely. It's [00:16:00] 50% dependent on me.   50% dependent on that other person and there, and how safe I feel with them. So forgiveness, a lot of times, especially when it's being leveraged, abusively says, you need to forgive me. Now the funny thing is, if that leader saying you need to forgive me, has no stake in controlling the other person, why are they even saying it?

  Because if forgiveness in their mind means you can come or go in this relationship and I need to re-earn your trust, they're not gonna tell you you have to forgive them.   If, you know, and so I think those of us who've been told that we have to forgive, need to say, okay. First of all, what do they mean by forgive?

And first of all, you can't cannot demand it of me.   But then in our own mind to say, well, maybe I'll want to forgive eventually, what does that mean?   And the implicit demand [00:17:00] in forgiveness is you reestablish a relationship for me, with me, and then for the purpose. Of me being able to continue to control and have power.

Yeah. And they're never gonna say those when never, there's some cultish situations that absolutely do say that most of them are nuanced, nicer, respectable institutions are not going to say, so I can control you. Right. But they're gonna put it in spiritual language so that I can help you be who God wants you to be, so that I can influence you toward God.

So, I mean, all the words that are used for control. That is one thing I, that's probably one another huge thing that I just wish people could hear and say, oh, forgiveness is utterly, forgiveness is something I freely give to anybody I want.   And I can keep myself safe doing it. I'm, I have, I can have boundaries and safety and still be free of that person and have let it go.

Whatever [00:18:00] words you wanna use for forgiveness, we can talk about those, or other words to use, because I think you're titling this the F word, right? Yes. Yeah, because that's that. Because a lot of people go, I don't even wanna use that word. Yeah. It's just too loaded. Like utterly understandable. Totally. So if I've already let this go and I feel free, that does not mean I have to be back in a relationship.

So that's on that trust note.

Katherine: So a person does not trust indiscriminately. Could we also say that a healthy person does not demand trust? And so if someone is demanding, even if it's through the language of forgiveness or not, Hey, I'm the pastor. Hey, I'm the therapist. Hey, I'm the blah, blah, blah, and I deserve your trust simply by my title.

Or simply because of God ordained authority, that that is not a healthy posture if they just expect you to trust. And if I come into a [00:19:00] space, and, and I've been in this situation before where it's typically with men who are just so just have their feelings hurt when there's some reticence, especially if they're like in authority position and, and, and make my story all about them, which is exactly what's happening in this twisting of forgiveness, is centering what that person did to injure you around the person who did the injuring and not the person.

Who is injured, where it should be, where that spotlight should be on. Absolutely. 

Connie: And you know, I don't wanna get too far off of this, but I just gotta throw it in here. Often it is an authority figure. Often it is male, but here, and not, but, but, and here's another context that I see is the demand for transparency, like within small groups.

[00:20:00]   You are supposed to be able to share your soul. You're supposed to lay yourself open to us. That's the rules of this game. In this group, you, we are all going to be open and vulnerable and authentic. And in other words, you have to share things you're uncomfortable with and don't feel like. You know, the group has built up enough trust, yet that demand can come in a systemic, like a small group or a, or even a large group sharing, I guess.

But I see this in small groups too. This demand for trust   Is just, it, it, it's insidious and it, especially when there's a need to control, 

Katherine: Yeah. And like with any spiritually abusive system, there's the, there is the, the good people who are doing it because they just wanna be good.

And someone told them, this is what good people do. And which is even the, even the forgiveness thing. Like, yeah, someone told me God wants you to forgive and I want you to do what God wants you to do. So you need to forgive. And they're, [00:21:00] they're good human beings and they're just misguided. And then there are people who are deliberately leveraging, and you used the word leverage at the very beginning, leveraging things like forgiveness and reconciliation and trust and intimacy to deliberately control.

Yes. And they both exist in that same system. 

Connie: They totally do. And the hugely unfortunate thing is they do equivalent damage. Yes. It's like it's like, you know, as you know, probably my, my clients and people I speak to will say how. How much of this is deliberate?   And it's like, well, that's a great question.

And there's a huge gray area in there of awareness and non-awareness on the part of abusers. And ultimately it just unfortunately doesn't matter. It still does the same. It's like whether I just happen to be distracted and plow into a car, or whether I'm drunk driving and plow into a car, it's the same level of damage.

And so [00:22:00] that, it's unfortunate, but yes. Oh, man. You know, Katherine, the only other thing that I wanna put on what it is not, and this is a little controversial, and we're gonna nuance it a little bit, all right? And that is, I feel like forgiveness is not essential for healing. There you go. So I agree with you.

And there again, and, and there again, I, I put that out there and I go, okay, of co I'm gonna nuance that. But I do think there's parts of that. This don't need to be nuanced. I have seen people. Well, I've certainly seen this. People never go through any formal forgiveness and be 100%. Well, now sometimes I think they kind of processed and let stuff go as they went almost unconsciously, which I think can happen with forgiveness.

I think I was part of my story. There were a few things I needed to forgive. But overall, see I forgive too quick that, that, that was part of my story, which laid me wide open for abuse is the trust, the Oh, it's okay. You know, there's [00:23:00] a downside to quick forgiveness, first of all can often be incomplete and denial rather than forgiveness.

But we'll talk about that. But yeah, that's, those are things, and we can talk more about the whole, it's not a requirement for healing. 

Katherine: And as we get into talking about what it is not being a requirement for healing. And then I really, really, really appreciate that you said that it's, the damage is the same, whether someone's intent was good or not.

And putting that back in the car accident situation, like whether I really intended to run over you or not, it still caused the damage.

Katherine: Forgiveness as we step into the, what is it? Is forgiveness easier if the person meant to do it or didn't? 

Connie: I'm thinking that's such a good question, Katherine, and I think there's a wide variety of answers to that because forgiveness is so complex.

  It, it, it, it's all kind. There's all kinds of psychological, I think, mechanisms that go on with forgiveness and. In some ways, well here's a great therapist. Denture. In some ways yes. In some ways, no. So, cause I, you know, I, I think there is, I [00:25:00] think there is a part there. It can, can be a little easier to let go if you can see some sincerity of motivation.

Yeah. And go. Alright, that said, I'm gonna still come back to it. Still did the same damage.   And so my car is still in it and I'm still in ICU.   No matter whether you just happen to glance on the side of the road and you're completely, you know, awake and sober and not looking at your phone, it still did damage.

And so I think there's a mixture. I also think it, let's put it this way, I think it's kind of individual.   I'm thinking about the several people that I've needed to forgive in my story. Some of them were just a lot easier to let go of. Yeah. Interestingly, it was easier for me to forgive my sexual abuser than it was the church leadership that kicked me out.

Yeah. Cuz I kind of viewed my sexual abuser as pathetic. [00:26:00] He was powerful, but he was an alcoholic and, you know, he was falling off a cliff and grabbed my hair and took me with him. And that does not excuse it. But I also, just because of my framework about the person   It's like I just like you got to a place where you potentially.

Katherine: Well, of course he did that kind of like a Yeah.

Connie: It's like, yeah. That's kind of where your whole thing was leading. Yeah. And it was utterly not okay.   It was so wrong and so, but there again, I'm thinking of my story and, and these different psychological processes that I went through and how that happened with different people    .

And who, how that intersects with who I am and my personality and my framework on life. It's a complicated process and so, I don't know. What do you think about that? What do you think about whether it's easier with intent? That's a great question. 

Katherine: I think that it definitely impacts [00:27:00] whether or not you, you remain in a relationship or re engage in a relationship.

I think it's less about forgive or not forgive, and more about whether or not I will end up trusting them again if I see. And then also even some, and I just think of the people who have used forgiveness as a way to kind of silence me. And they're doing, coming from a place of like, they think that this is what God expects and like, this is what I need to do to be a godly person, and so I need to forgive.

And so they're kind of in that framework. and those people, most of them I'm still in relationship with. And the way that they handled that was painful. Yeah. But I can see that they were genuinely trying to help. And so it does make it a little easier to just continue to engage with [00:28:00] them.

I'm just thinking of a couple people specifically. And, and, and this comes down to how I would define forgiveness which is I. I, and, and I think you even describe it a little bit like this in your book is a release of responsibility.   And that's how it looked for me when I, so my main abuser.

I have a lot of people who have abused me in the church context. But. And when I realized, like forgiveness happened without me consciously thinking about it, like, and I, when I realized that I had forgiven him, it coincided hand in hand with me suffering my relationship permanently with him.

And yes, it's completely opposite of anything that I was ever taught.   And, and that's when I say it was a release of responsibility. When I released responsibility, the only reason why I stayed in a [00:29:00] relationship with him was because of damaging teaching about forgiveness. Yeah. And feeling like I needed to stay in a relationship with him so that I could always leave the door open for him to repent and always give him access to me.

So just in case he changed. Yeah. And when I finally realized and acknowledged the magnitude of the damage that he had done, that was when I was like, we're done not engaging anymore. This is a dangerous person and every time I'm in contact it reopens things and we're done. And so I severed that relationship and then that release that a lot of people describe with forgiveness of just, whew.

Yeah. That's when that came of just, yeah. I'm sorry. I am no longer responsible for saving him, changing him, [00:30:00] and then I'm also no longer responsible for the damage that he caused. Hmm. That's it. 

Connie: He can deal with that. You're not releasing him of responsibility. You're releasing yourself of responsibility.

Katherine: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And now, and so, like, engaging with someone who, whose intent was malicious versus someone whose intent was genuinely care. Like one you can work with, one you can't. 

Connie: Right. And even, and there's also another angle for me in the reconciliation piece, which we're talking about forgiveness, which is different, but the reconciliation piece is also that they own the damage done, even if they didn't intend to, but they're still justifying it under that old paradigm or their paradigm that caused them to do the damage to me, then they're not safe still because it's gonna happen again if they don't [00:31:00] become aware and see what happened and say, oh, I see the damage done and now I'm going to shift my frame of reference to not re, re, re re-injure.

So yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that release of responsibility. Those are some really good words to say. Oh man. There are so many, there's so many good layers to that, Katherine. I love that. Yeah. A lot of times, I'll call it different things like well letting go, releasing, you know, if you wanna, if you wanna take it out of Christian Christianese releasing unwanted negative energy, this is about me getting rid of something, of some toxin I'm carrying.

  Not arguing for a past or wishing for a different past and Yeah. You know, holding onto that demand or desire. So those are all things, probably my favorite that I like is the idea of [00:32:00] canceling a debt.   Because I like it, because, well, here's what I do with my clients and here's what I've done in my life.

As they say, I just wanna forgive. I'm like, great. Because I just wanna be, I just wanna be free. I'm like, great. What I'd like you to do is, let's think about this in terms of a debt, and I would like you to write every offense   On the left hand side. And I want you to describe a monetary value to that offense.

Katherine: Some offenses are smaller, some are million. 

Connie: Yes. Yes. Man, I'm taking you to court. You know, and I want you to, I want you to literally go through every offense. And that's in, that in itself is an intense process and I think a therapeutic one because especially if they have a Christian background, so many of us want to sweep it under the rug and [00:33:00] call that forgiveness and say, well, they hurt me.

And I'm like, slow down.   How, when?   In what way? With, with what intent? Whatever you did to go down and have that ledger and that other ledger, how much did that cost you? And to me, I. Defining the massive cost. Especially when we're talking here, not little slights, the people, but huge lifetime damage people have done to us, especially in religious abuse.

That to me makes it very concrete and that where I'm like, no, I'm not gonna let you say, well, they hurt me cuz that can often be a sweeping under the rug and you gotta be ready to do this. A lot of PE people go, oh, that's a little too intense. I said, I honor that. No, no problem. And I'm like, let's just, you know, step back.

You know, I'm not gonna of course push somebody to do that, but for them to come back and have those ledgers and now [00:34:00] say forgiveness is, is looking at that final massive number and saying, I'm ready to cancel the debt. I'm ready to let go of it. I'm not gonna keep it in collections forever for myself emotionally to say, Nope.

    That is what you owe me.   That is absolutely what you owe me. And I'm letting it go.   And, and I think there's some, there's freedom in that first to acknowledge the vastness of the debt.   Because if we minimize it, I don't think that's true for Yes. Yeah. But if we say, no, this is the, this is such a big deal with all, its all it's particulars and I'm letting it go for me.

Yeah. Not for them. That's another issue. Forgiveness is not necessarily for them. For, for, it's for me.   

Katherine: Yeah. And with that it is for me, forgiveness is for me, I get to decide when I could decide where I get to. If it really [00:35:00] is for me, then hundred percent I get to decide. And the releasing of that, or the letting go of that is, is about me.

Connie: 100% 

Katherine: And adding the magnitude of the damage and acknowledging the magnitude of damage is needed, I think, for forgiveness to happen. Because if you're not acknowledging the magnitude of the damage, then you don't really know what, what you're letting go.

Connie: Right. That's exactly right. Yeah. You, you're saying, you're saying you're letting it go, but what is it?

Katherine: Right, exactly. And I think that like my forgiveness, that was like accidental because I had, I had just decided, Nope, he's not getting forgiven. He doesn't deserve it. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. Not, not doing it, not going there. And yes, so it was totally accidental in and getting to [00:36:00] that place of, of realizing how bad the damage was and realizing that this person was dangerous and, and severing that relationship.

And that was where that release came from. And, and not holding him accountable myself, because I don't, my job is not my job.

Connie: Well, and it's so great, what you just said too fits this metaphor in that I am not going to continue to let him take my money. Yep. I am not going to continue. Every encounter now costs me $1,500.

No, I'm done. You don't get anymore. And that's the, that's the No, I'm stopping the bleeding here. I'm stopping the debt bleed and I'm not into it. So yeah, those are, those are, I think, different. There's a lot of this is, I love it because there's so many ways to look at what this thing is.

Katherine: And even just the idea of [00:37:00] like that releasing of responsibility. Oh, shoot. My mind just went completely blank. So yes. If you have more to say, feel free. I completely lost it. 

Connie: As I always say, it'll come back if it's needed. Right. 

Katherine: Exactly. It'll, it'll pop back up

I guess I'm just like this, like thinking about forgiveness and it gets me really emotional and then my, my brain just, it's emotional. 

Connie: Yeah. 

Katherine: I'm just thinking of like the folks who have basically required forgiveness and like, means that you can't tell.

Ah, there it is. There it is. That it was, that's what it was. Story, story, story, story. Can't tell your story. That means that you don't tell your story. And that was like their litmus test of if you were bitter or not. And with that releasing of responsibility, for me, I became much more vocal about my story because I was no longer concerned about protecting my abuser and yes, no longer carrying that [00:38:00] responsibility to protect him.

But then also realizing I wanted to share my story and yes, my story, I can talk about it if I want and I can say absolutely. And it's, it's part of my healing process. It's. Also because I want to help people and I want other people to hear, hear these things and know that they're not alone. And that's for me, 100% for me.

And they're, my abuser like, role in that. And like, I don't, I don't think about, I used to, but I, I don't think about what is he gonna think of this? Yeah. If you hear this, is he, is he gonna change? Is he, you know, is he gonna be angry? Is he gonna, you know, I, I'm not thinking about how he's gonna feel about me telling my story anymore cuz he's just not a part of it.

He's not a fact. What agreed him? 

Connie: Yes. Oh, beautiful. [00:39:00] 

Katherine: Yes, but not a, a linear thing because the desire for revenge, I'm like, is there for revenge? Does that like cancel out forgiveness? Because I'm like, I still, I still, I still think about, I still like do kickboxing and I still picture picture his face when I'm kickboxing.

Connie: Another important point, Katherine, and that is if I know you just brought a great cultural subcultural framework in the church of saying if you tell the story, you're clearly still bitter. The other thing that comes up is if you're still angry, you're bitter and you haven't forgiven, and I'm like, okay.

First of all, I still, when I watch through the years my, the story that I've had several abuse stories, but the big one that's like in my book and stuff, I think about, this is now 33 years ago and I've watched through 33 years. Them hurt other people. Yeah. [00:40:00] And I get pissed. Yep. Every single time because it's not okay.

Is that bitterness? No, I just, my system does not like bitterness. Some people, and let me say this, I also wanna talk a little bit about how bitterness. Serves as a protection. Yeah. And that it's, and that I wanna give a lot of latitude there. Now, I do think bitterness eventually makes us unhappy, but there are reasons it is frightening to let it go because a lot of times it's serving as, as part of the boundary, as part of that protection that we have.

And I, I wish I'd have had more bitter protection at certain points. Frankly, my system could have used that. But just because I get angry does not mean I'm bitter or wrong, or have not forgiven. I'm forgiven. I'm that goal. And I'm still pissed because I'm looking at [00:41:00] somebody else getting 

Katherine: I'm still pissed.

Connie: Yes, exactly. And do I feel that all the time? No, I don't. But, but every few years something will trickle back to me and it's like, Are you kidding me? You know?   And I think that that anger is totally appropriate, and it does not stay, it does not chew my insides out. I'm just pissed about it because it's not okay.

So I think that, that, thinking about the story we get, we get a lot of judgment about if you've forgiven, this is what it's gonna have to look like. Mostly because we're uncomfortable, especially with women being angry. So so if you're angry, you're, you've got a problem. If you're a woman, especially sometimes a man, but men get away with a lot more anger than we do.

So it's like you, if you're, you're angry, there's a problem. And if you're telling your story, you're clearly out for revenge and you haven't forgiven. And I just think there's a lot of weird stuff out there [00:42:00] about judgment in, in that realm of saying, we're gonna decide whether you've forgiven or not. 

Katherine: Someone who was on the podcast a couple weeks ago described bitterness and the way that bitterness is actually used in the Bible as a grief of spirit. And like if we took the word bitter out and we put in grief of spirit, and if someone says, you're bitter. And, and I translate in that my brain grief of spirit.

Connie: Yes, yes. Yeah, totally. 

Katherine: Absolutely. Grieved of spirit and will likely be, and that's where the trauma thing comes in too. And, and if you're, if you have that trauma still sorted in your body, which I do, I still have the trauma of my upbringing still sort in my body and like that's gonna bring up those emotional flashbacks at un unexpected times for any particular reason that is [00:43:00] uncontrollable.

Like, it's not like I can't manage. When that's gonna pop up. And that is not bitterness. That's a very different experience. That's an, that's an emotional flashback.

Connie: I love that grief of spirit. And then again, sometimes we're using words that probably have some different definitions and, but you're right.

It's like, yeah. That we're defining better, like that. Heck yeah. Yes. 

Katherine: Yeah. Grieved of spirit. And I hope that I always will be grieved of spirit for those things and, and always be angry. I hope I will always be angry about abuse, right. Abuse that was done to me and the abuse that was done to other people.

I hope that I don't see, I don't have a goal for myself or desire to ever get to a place where I'm not angry about it, because that's not healthy, but like that I am, I want to be angry about that. Yes. Yes, I want to, when one of my siblings calls me to tell me a [00:44:00] story of something that they just remembered and it was a horrible thing that happened, I want to feel anger at that.

I want to be grieved that that happened because it's worthy of grief. It's worthy of anger, especially, it's so worthy. 

Connie: Yes. It's a, it's a very. Appropriate response. It's a healthy response. And that's where there, again, a whole nother topic, but how, how the, how religious communities view anger is and who gets to be angry and who doesn't.

You know, it is like, that's a whole nother topic, but there's, but that ties deeply into this topic of forgiveness, who, you know, how, which sections. Of the authority structure. Get to be angry at who, which genders get to be angry. I mean, all of this. Or you know, how long you're allowed to be angry. 

Connie: How long, oh, talk about rules.

How long you're, and how long you're supposed to be grieved [00:45:00] in spirit. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Whatever has passed. Yes. Yes. 

Katherine: Thank you. So well, I think if anything can be concluded from this conversation as it is nuanced, it is complex and it is not something that we can come at someone with and say, define if you have or if you haven't.

Like, yes, I think that the, and no one can come at us and tell us if we have or if we haven't, and decide for us what that looks like. If anything is concluded here to just sort of wrap up, I would be lucky. Kind of like to go through your evaluation, just so, so folks can kind of do this on their own.

Absolutely. You have three questions at the end of your chapter that you ask just to kind of, for us to just ask ourselves and I mean, we can even just do it in real time. And we kind of talked about this one a little bit, which is, what are some other words for forgiveness that I might prefer?

  What about you, Connie? What are some words you prefer?

Connie: Right. Unfortunately, I threw out my favorites, or, I mean, [00:46:00] I chatted about them earlier, but I wanna, I guess I'd like to create space for whatever metaphor works for you. I mean, that's the issue. There's something, there's some level, I do think at core, I think we could say there's some level of disconnecting from.

A harmful connection with that person. I think that might be one of the best ways to put it in some metaphor or some language to say, how do I let go, how do I release myself   From being hooked   Into something that is, is putting poison in me.   So yeah. 

Katherine: Poison from that person because we're still interacting with them.

Connie: Absolutely. And even if you're not in a, sometimes they're dead, but they're still poisoned in [00:47:00] you because of that mental fight that you are in with them. And that's different from being mad. I'm not in a fight with my abusers anymore. Some of them actually died. But it's like, I am not in a fight with them, but I can get pissed off because it's not okay.

And so I guess there's, there's that emotional hook that, and there again, releasing the emotional hook does not mean all the damage. Again, be really careful. All the damage is not healed by that. But it is one piece of the pie where I can go. Okay.   Yep. Be gone. 

Katherine: That's your next book title release. The emotional hook. 

Connie: Yes. There it is. Perfect. Thank you for that release.

Katherine: The emotional hook. 

Connie: Yeah. And I think that's why I'd like to give people creativity and a lot of latitude and space to say, how am I gonna define this for me?

  What is that gonna look like? And, and nobody else gets to, nobody else gets to have input [00:48:00] in that if you don't want their input. Have you watched, 

Katherine: Do you watch Ted Lasso? 

Connie: Have I watched Ted Lasso?

Katherine: I'm in season three. I haven't finished season three, but whatever episode I just watched Ted has a conversation with his ex-wife, or soon to be ex-wife, I guess. I don't know if they're divorced yet or not. And he says just basically like, I just wanted to let you know how I feel and that I'm not okay.

Yes. Okay. And then he just closes the computer and he walks away. And I thought it was beautiful because that is, for me, what forgiveness is, is that release of responsibility that might lead me to having a conversation with someone so that I can close the door and like, I'm not walking away from this.

And I would do that with someone who I would say the intent was good. Yeah. I might think that with someone who, who I actually feel like they're coming from a good place. I need you to know how this impacted [00:49:00] me. And then I walk away from that conversation with no expectation that they're gonna 

Connie: Right.

Right. I'm saying this for me, not for 

Katherine: you. Yeah. And, and, and releasing myself of the responsibility of changing their mind or convincing them. And, and also if it's not safely done, we're done walking away, putting up, raising that relationship. And, and as we're talking this conversation, and I'm talking about the people who have, who have kind of weaponized forgiveness against me, even with a good intent and it did, it did cause a little bit of boundary in the relationship and, and realizing they're not a safe person for me to tell my story to.

So I don't tell my story to them. Right? That's how they're gonna respond. I am not responsible for that. I can take my story elsewhere. So that's how I would define it. Release [00:50:00] of responsibility for myself, releasing myself of responsibility, not releasing responsibility. Releasing responsibility. Right.

Connie: Right. 

Katherine: Second, the last question. So the next one is do I need to forgive? Do I want to forgive?   I think that's a great question and I'm like, I'm gonna start using that with my clients just like, even if they say the words, a lot of, a lot of folks will say, I need to forgive.

Like, I, I need to, I need to like, I need to, I should. Yeah. Yeah. But then to just follow that up with like, do you want to, yeah. How have you seen that play out? 

Connie: Just in, I know people can hardly believe this sometimes, but you know, at 18 years of clinical work, I have never initiated the conversation around forgiveness because I don't need to.

It's always them coming up and saying, [00:51:00] oh my gosh, I feel like I need to forgive, or I want, or I wanna forgive, or, and I'm like, great. Okay, let's chat about forgiveness. And I think. I really trust that because if a lack of forgiveness is now causing my client problems, it's gonna come up.   And great.

I'll wait for it. I have no, I have no agenda to rush this and, and so, yes. Do I need to forgive? First of all, I'm going to say no, forgive. Well, one thing we haven't said explicitly yet is forgiveness is a thing that happens in time. It, it's a thing that often is a huge progression of time. It starts maybe in a little way and, and, and then it kind of stops or starts or this is, and that is beautiful.

That's fine. That is whatever [00:52:00] your experience with forgiveness, Yeah. Great. That's it. Let it be, like you said, some of yours just happened. Like, and some of mine was a dawning realization, but they just didn't have power over me anymore and that I just didn't care. Yeah. I just, I just didn't care and I'd let it go.

  Now, again, not let it go. Like, like it didn't happen. No, no. There was a, there was a debt register there and there was a debt, you know, stuff. But yeah. And so then do I want to, sometimes people really want to and are saying it's not even a should for them, it's just I really, I wanna unhook.

  And they're struggling too. And I think that's where, if you're struggling with that, I do think therapy can be helpful because there's a lot of mechanisms that keep us hooked that are important to non-judgmentally and with curiosity, explore and say, what, what if we twinkle [00:53:00] our nose and. You're you've forgiven.

And a lot of times it has to do with vulnerability or lack of protection. Somehow it's, there's still, and so then the question becomes, which I think is a very hopeful question, what can you use in place of a destructive bitterness or, or resentment that's hurting them? What can you use in place to make sure you are protected?

And see, I love how those happen simultaneously for you. It's like, oh, breaking contact is my protection. I don't, I can let this baby go now because I don't have to, because now I've set something else in place. Does it have to be up for everyone, a whole severing of the whole relationship? No, but it can be, it can be boundaries put in place to say, I will protect myself.

Katherine: Thank you for naming the need for safety before you can forgive. Yes. Not like you need to be in a safe place. If you're still in a marriage [00:54:00] and you are being abused in that marriage and you're still in the marriage in everyday contact with this person. Don't even think about forgiveness.

Right? Just get to that later. 

Connie: Right? Deal with it because you can't, because the ledger is growing too fast. You can't sit there. Oh, I've forgiven. No. And another metaphor I use is in, I work with a lot of domestic violence. I can sit here and keep stitching up all the knife wounds, but you're just getting more all the time.

And I'm willing, as a therapist, I'm willing to kind of help keep stitching, but the knife wounds continue. And that's not to pressure them to leave, cuz I don't believe in that at all unless their life is in danger. But we need a realistic view. You're not gonna heal well if you're still constantly exposed and connected to someone who has power over you that is hurting you.

You can't fully heal. So you gotta get away from the knife eventually. 

Katherine: Yep. If you're actively in this [00:55:00] situation, just table that table forgiveness. Listen to this episode later. Worry about this right now.

Connie: Totally. I think that's it. And so do I want to Yes. Great. And if you have blocks then, you know, get a little help with that.

And look at the issue of safety. Look at the issue of how can I, is, could that be, I think that is often not the only one, but a primary thing that says, I can't do that. I want to, but I just can't. What's that about? And usually people judge themselves. I'm just, I just need, I, I want to, but I just can't, what's wrong with me?

It's like, no, you actually have a part of you that is saying we need to be kept safe. So how do you work with that part? And says, good, you're right. We do need to be kept safe. Let's put some in place. 

Katherine: Yes, yes. Oh, I love that. I love that. And that might, that might be the answer to the next question, which is if someone comes to that place, so I, I'm ready to forgive, I wanna forgive.

What are the next steps? 

Connie: Yeah. Well, first of all, [00:56:00] let's remove any barriers. You need to feel safety, you need to feel ready. And at that point I've got, I got kind of a step by step that I think rarely anybody has ever done all these steps that I've worked with. But I think that they are, But they're helpful because it makes it concrete.

Some of us are very concrete thinkers and forgiveness is an abstract a lot of time, Lewis is why we have a hard time defining it. But part of this, again, go back and we're gonna define stuff in concrete ways. What were those offenses? I think writing them down you know, as therapists, we want people to externalize either through talking or putting it on paper, get it out of them and externalize it.

So to put all the offenses down, write them down. And if there's a truly safe person to bring into the process, I think that can be very meaningful. I also think this can be done alone [00:57:00] in a beautiful, very profound way as well. But if there is the possibility of doing so, do you want somebody safe in the mix with you? As you write these down, as you assign values, as you make a concrete, great, bring 'em in.

And then I. I love the whole idea of a symbolic gesture of some sort like a ritual. Yes, absolutely. And I've had people who want to burn the paper. 

Katherine: Oh, I love it. That was, I came into my head, I'll be burning that paper, burn it, burn that paper.

Connie: I've had people in my office shred it.   Shred the paper, get a good void stamp.

  Put okay, cancel or whatever is on that. Something symbolic to say all these offenses that I was super concrete about. Or if you don't wanna get rid of that paper, which I think there's some great reasons not to seal it in an envelope. I know I've kept sealed envelope stuff in my client's files before.

It's like, you bet it's here. You know? [00:58:00] If you ever need it, you got it. We, you know. But to have it something symbolically letting it go, whatever works for you. I think that those can be some helpful concrete ways to Yeah, 

Katherine: yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. Those are some, yeah. Great. And I love, yeah, the idea of adding in a ritual.

And I think that that could be helpful for so many of us who have left church spaces that were so very ritualistic and now we don't have any rituals. So to recreate a ritual, and make something that's ours. 

Connie: Yes. The church for all its fault and difficulty is a place in our culture that still does carry some, some potentially beautiful rituals.

Where a lot of other domains, other societies have rituals around all kinds of stuff because I think that's part of our humanity. Our culture is like, oh, we don't do the ritual thing. And I think, oh, sometimes our ritual is about honor.   I want to honor this process I've just gone through [00:59:00] with this ceremony, with this sacred moment to be there again. I'm not talking about Christian / Christianese sacred, but just a sacred honoring moment of saying, this is significant. I'm gonna give it weight. 

Katherine: I love that. I think that is a great place to end too. And I hope this is an episode that folks will be able to just listen to over and over and over and over again when those 70 times seven versus. Pop up in their mind reminding you of the ways that these teachings have been used against us and, and not actually been for our flourishing and our healing.

So thank you for talking about this. I'm so excited. 

Connie: Oh, me too, Katherine. Thank you for having me. It's always a delight to chat with you and I'm, I'm do, I am hoping too that others can just, can find some space, permission freedom in this discussion to, to find their own way. So [01:00:00] yes, find your own way.

Katherine: Yeah. With that encouragement. 

S4: E23 - On the Murder of Elizabeth Mackintosh at Covenant Theological Seminary with Karl Saint Luc

Katherine Spearing

New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other Side

This episode discusses the brutal murder of Elizabeth Mackintosh on the campus of Covenant Theological Seminary in 1990. It also discusses an entire denomination’s apparent erasure of women.

Karl Saint Lucy is a songwriter, composer, and vocalist living in The Bronx. Karl's father, Michael Johnson, is the prime suspect in the unsolved 1990 murder of Elizabeth Mackintosh on the campus of Covenant Theological Seminary.

Karl is the songwriter, a co-composer (with music producer Marius de Vries), and a co-producer of A24's first movie musical, F**king Identical Twins, directed by Larry Charles, which stars Megan Thee Stallion in her first feature film. Saint Lucy was a featured soloist on John Cameron Mitchell's Anthem: Homunculus musical podcast by Luminary Originals and was an alto finalist for the GRAMMY Award-winning men's choir, Chanticleer, in 2017.

Check out the 2023 podcast series TRUE BELIEVER that goes into more details about the case, Covenant Seminary, and the PCA.

The ‘Cold Justice’ Team Helps Investigate The ‘Savage’ Murder Of A Seminary Student

US murder suspect 'will not face charges' after Edinburgh nurse killed

RESPONSE TO LETTER TO CHURCHES

REGISTER FOR RETREATCON

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

S4: E22- Is There Really a Gay Agenda? (And Other Questions) with Bridget Eileen Rivera

Katherine Spearing

Bridget Eileen Rivera is a sociologist completing her Ph.D. at the City University of New York Graduate Center. Her first book, Heavy Burdens (Brazos Press, fall 2021), is a Foreward INDIES 2022 Finalist for religion. Providing an honest account of seven ways LGBTQ people experience discrimination in the church, Heavy Burdens helps Christians across the theological spectrum to grapple with hard realities and navigate a better approach to LGBTQ issues. You can follow Bridget's work on social media @travelingnun

In this episode we discuss:

• How does religion impact the suicide rate of LGBTQ people?

• Is the Bible really clear about LGBTQ issues?

• How does the gender conversation impact the LGBTQ conversation?

• What is the political motivation behind the myth of the “gay agenda”?

REGISTER FOR RETREATCON

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Links for Survivors Discuss podcast:

Website: https://survivorsdiscuss.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SurvivorsDiscuss/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/survivorsdiscuss/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3qTwCpqu8PBiXvGtJVS8SF?si=b2b62039df4a4d3d

Amazon/Alexa: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/d0479463-01ca-4580-af9c-e06eea1eed33/survivors-discuss

Audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/Survivors-Discuss-Podcast/B0C9TL21ZL?action_code=ASSGB149080119000H&share_location=pdp

The Problem with Modesty Talks (And Other Concerns) with Sheila Wray Gregoire

Katherine Spearing

Armed with data from an all-new survey of more than 7,000 women, the authors of The Great Sex Rescue, Sheila Wray Gregoire, Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach, and Joanna Sawatsky, reveal how experiences in church as teens affect women's self-esteem and relationships today in their new book She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up.

They expose common evangelical teachings that can backfire: the purity emphasis that can cause shame rather than good choices, the dating rules that can prime girls for abuse, and the one overarching belief that can keep them from setting healthy boundaries.

Sheila Wray Gregoire is the face behind ToLoveHonorandVacuum.com, the largest single-blogger marriage blog. She's also an award-winning author of nine books, including The Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex, and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila is passionate about changing the evangelical conversation about sex and marriage to line up with kingdom principles. She lives in Ontario, Canada, with her husband.

REGISTER FOR RETREATCON

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Links for Survivors Discuss podcast:

Website: https://survivorsdiscuss.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SurvivorsDiscuss/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/survivorsdiscuss/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3qTwCpqu8PBiXvGtJVS8SF?si=b2b62039df4a4d3d

Amazon/Alexa: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/d0479463-01ca-4580-af9c-e06eea1eed33/survivors-discuss

Audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/Survivors-Discuss-Podcast/B0C9TL21ZL?action_code=ASSGB149080119000H&share_location=pdp