Uncertain

The Final Episode of Season Five (and the final episode of Uncertain) is a very special episode. The Board of Directors of Tears of Eden interviews Katherine Spearing, reflecting on the journey of creating five seasons and 110 episodes. They'll discuss: 

• What Katherine is most proud of during the past five seasons

• How Katherine has navigated carrying stories of abuse and trauma while also being a survivor

• What it's like working with a team and building community after experiencing abuse within a community

• What it's like to pioneer bringing pivotal conversations into the public eye

• How being a woman has impacted Katherine's approach and experience calling out abuse 

• And More! 

Featuring Erin Pickersgill, Nikki G. and Brad Klausman

Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners

Sign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings

 [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain. So today's episode is a special one. It's a little bit happy and celebratory, and it's also a little bit sad. This episode is for the foreseeable future the last episode of Uncertain. It is the end of an era, the end of a journey, and also the beginning of one, I hope. Is the fifth season. We're ending the fifth season. There are five seasons of Uncertain. There's also over a hundred episodes. That's a really big deal. I was planning to sort of end the season with the episode from last week with Janai Amon talking about the How to prepare for telling your story publicly in a safe way.

I was really excited about that episode. I was prepared to end on that episode. And then I met with the board of directors for tears of Eden. Yes, we have a [00:01:00] board of directors. We are a nonprofit. All non profits have a board of directors, and I was really thrilled that they suggested, hey, why don't we do like a final celebratory episode in which we, the board, interview you, Katherine, about the journey we're on.

with Uncertain. And I honestly was so in the zone of like, okay, I need to finish the season. I need to wrap it up. I need to get everything out. I need to do the promo and I need to do the recording and I need to do the editing and just kind of full on just work task mode. And so the fact that the board suggested, hey, let's do an episode to sort of commemorate and celebrate.

That was really helpful. I really appreciated it. It meant so much to me and this episode meant a lot to me as well. This whole journey has meant so much to me. I'm going to talk more about it in the episode itself during the interview. Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, the Tears of Eden newsletter, so that you can stay [00:02:00] updated on everything that is continuing to happen with Tears of Eden, including but not limited to a book about spiritual abuse that I am currently writing and will be releasing next year 2025. Thank you all so much for listening. Uh, so before I start crying, I will turn it over to the board of directors of Tears of Eden.

Here is the final episode where the board of directors interviews Katherine Spearing

Erin: Will you like edit things? Oh, definitely. I'll definitely

Katherine: edit it. Yeah. And I'll probably just kind of speak, speak openly, and then decide later if I care.

you're gonna edit

Erin: yourself. I'm definitely

Katherine: going to edit myself. I probably edit myself more than I edit guests, honestly, because they're going to be going to be real about that. I was like, why do I say like so much? I say like so much.

Erin: You like it. You like it. I like to say like, [00:03:00] exactly.

Katherine: So can we have everybody introduce yourselves? Your name, where you're located, your pronouns, and what how you found Tears of Eden, and then what made you want to be on the board of directors aside from me coercing you into it?

Brad: Nicky threatening my life.

Erin: That'll do it.

Nicole: That's because Catherine threatened my life, so I just was passing down the baton. Hey,

Erin: I didn't get threatened. I feel left out.

Brad: Well, don't worry. That means you saved on therapy bills. It's okay. And

Katherine: we are not a cult.

Nicole: No. No. We've had enough of those.

Katherine: Nikki, why

Nicole: don't you go first?

Okay. I am Nikki G, and certified trauma recovery coach, and I specialize in religious trauma, cult recovery, and narc abuse, and I hail from the state of Texas. And [00:04:00] how did I find this safe space that I found that I'm in right now? Well, I met Catherine, maybe about 2021, I think and we connected that way, came on our podcast with myself and another coach.

And We just hit it off. We found that we had a lot of commonality and our hearts were both centered on, obviously, recovering ourselves, but also helping those who have gone through horrendous forms of spiritual abuse and religious trauma. And so, you know, Catherine reached out to me, I think the end of 2021, and said, Hey!

There's a board seat. You want to get on the board? No, she didn't say it that easy, but she was just saying, I would love to have you. I think, you know we hit it off well, and I think we have the same vision. And so I came on board. I remember her. I'm not going to do that now, but I remember her explaining to me how tears of Eden, the actual name came to being, and I just fell in love with that.

[00:05:00] And she didn't have the strong army. And so I said, yes. And I've been on the board since the beginning of 2022. So that's my story and I'm sticking with it

Katherine: and Nikki has been with me through many a trial tears of Eden related. Yeah. And it's gotten me through many things. Very, very grateful, and also runs the support groups or has run the past few support groups that we've done.

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful support group, support person, wonderful human being. Erin, you want to go next?

Erin: Hi everyone so my name is Erin Pickerskill and I'm the, I'm an Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Missouri. And my pronouns are she, her I've been a priest for a few years and as I was training to be a priest, I was in England and had some of my own experiences of spiritual abuse and religious trauma.

And as I was. Trying to find out if this thing was even real. [00:06:00] Found myself stomping around the British countryside, walking my dogs and listening to Catherine's voice on the Tia's of Eden podcast on certain and like just praying and wishing and hoping that I could find a community that would understand me and validate my experiences and ended up moving to St.

Louis after that. And so did Catherine. So I asked Catherine if I could take her out for a coffee. And And thank her for all of the validation and comfort she gave me and probably many others. And then I strong armed her into being my friend and that's how I do friendship. And but it was just so great.

And so then Catherine asked me to be part of the board like on a temporary basis and I loved it so much. Yeah, I just love being a part of this. community. Did I answer all your questions? Yeah, maybe that was about last year, Catherine, or about a year and a half ago. So

Katherine: I don't remember, but also came on in a torrential season [00:07:00] of personal and tears of Eden nature.

I remember when we both cried. I was like, I don't know. It was like, we laughed. Yeah.

Erin: It was amazing. It was amazing. Yeah. To me, like you were, it was like meeting my hero. And

Katherine: for me, it was just like, Whoa, we both moved here at the same time. Like, I did feel,

Erin: you know, this story that I felt so, so scared, you were going to think I was so creepy because I messaged you and I was like, you're moving to St.

Louis. So am I, let me get you a coffee. Like that is creepy. So I'm so glad that I'm so glad that you you took the chance and let me get coffee for you.

Katherine: One day it was very special. And I'm so grateful that you're on the board. You bring so much life and laughter and fun and we need that desperately.

And we ran into each other literally yesterday, yesterday. It was two days ago, one of those days at a coffee shop. [00:08:00] We're both at the same coffee shop. Yes. This

Erin: is awesome.

Katherine: Yes. I promise. I didn't

Nicole: know you were gonna be there.

Katherine: I didn't know you were gonna be there. You're like, I'm not being creepy. I swear. I was in your car route.

So good. So good. Cannot escape Erin. No. She's always there.

Erin: Oh, that's creepy. Brad's face is so scared. He's so scared. On that note.

Katherine: Yeah, right. Brad, how about you introduce yourselves?

Brad: Well, you know, I didn't know all that about Erin or I may have reconsidered. However I'm here. So my name is Brad. I short, brief history.

I'm a former pastor of 20 plus years in the Southern Baptist church. I escaped with, with no hair, but I escaped and became a certified light coach about four years ago helping people that are deconstructing from religious beliefs. Ideology, trauma and whatever they may go through.

 My pronouns are he, him. I found out about [00:09:00] tears because of Nikki. Nikki and I met through Instagram discovered we had connection. And then she very bluntly threatened me to interview for tears. And right that same day that she threatened me, she sent me an application or something and said, you need to fill this out. And so with that began the process of, of interrogation, background checks floggings, you know, all that. I must say I was incredibly nervous meeting Catherine obviously the brains behind the operation. But I love tears. And the, the mission and the way in which this organization goes about providing resources and meet the needs of those that are, have, are struggling or have been struggling spiritually.

And don't know where they're at. And so that's obviously one of my passions being who I am. I am currently pretty [00:10:00] busy because I'm in the midst of my clinical mental health counseling master's degree. I figure I need I need to replace my past master's degree seminary with something more relevant.

No effect. No offense, Aaron. So you know, just a little, little me thing. It's, it's more of a me problem. So with that being said, I'm just excited to be here. I'm excited about this next step and tears life. Tears of Eden's life and what. The vision that Catherine has and what she's going to be doing next.

So that's a little bit about me.

No, just realize that I am the only male here. So, you know, just saying. Oh, he pulled the mail card. It's really hard for

Nicole: him. Yeah.

Brad: Oh, my privilege is showing. I'm so sorry

Katherine: for you.

Nicole: We're so glad that you're here. This is all in great spirit. Yes. I do

Katherine: remember asking Nikki, like, he is [00:11:00] a white man.

Are you sure? Apparently. Totally fair question. .

Nicole: Yes.

Katherine: No, we love that. I'm very grateful for you. I'm very grateful that you're on the board and grateful that you have been here. You've been through the support group with us too, and you're the champion of re-shares on Instagram, always re-sharing content.

Mm-Hmm, super appreciate that. Yeah. So very, very glad that you're here. And I'm Catherine, she, her, and. Host soon to be former host of uncertain podcast. And this is our celebration episode for five seasons, 110 episodes. And. I guess I'll just announce that this is the final episode for now of Uncertain.

That is why we were doing this episode, the special celebratory episode, Aaron's [00:12:00] idea. So glad that you had the idea. Cause I was just like, ah, we're just going to, you know, have a last episode and then we're going to be done. And Aaron was like, no, we need to celebrate. Can we, we need to celebrate

Erin: you. We need to celebrate you.

That's what we are here to celebrate. So all of you listeners, we're not just. Celebrating this podcast today. We are really intentionally reading it and asking Catherine, like returning the table and asking Catherine the questions about her experience over the last five years.

Katherine: I really appreciate it.

I'll just say that. Really, really appreciate it. Really grateful that you are, you had the idea to celebrate because it needed to happen. There needed to be just like a celebration and a, and a nice little cumulative ending. So I very much appreciate that. So thank you so much for having the idea and are y'all okay.

If I just kind of surrender to you and you decide. What's next for the rest of this episode, even though I feel like the episode's already been awesome so far stories [00:13:00] like, man, why did I interview all of you?

Erin: I would I would love to Nikki, were you making gestures? Do you want to me to me? You're pointing at me?

Wow. Thanks. Okay, thumbs up. I'm gonna I'm gonna so gladly kick us off, Catherine. I'm going to give you a really easy. Easy starting question, and then they're going to get progressively harder, I'm sure. Sweet! I'm ready. Yeah, okay. And listeners, we did not ask Catherine to review or reflect on these questions beforehand, so these are all off the dub.

100 percent improvised. Good luck. Good thing you're good at that. Okay, so listen, I would love to know, What is, as you reflect over the last five years of podcasting podcasting uncertain, what is a highlight of all of your interviews or, or like, what are you most proud of a particular moment?

Katherine: Yeah, I was reflecting mostly on that this morning.

I like [00:14:00] blocked out an hour and I was like, I want to sit with, like, go through all the episodes. I didn't listen to them, but I just like, Went through and like remembered episodes and took notes on things. And I think one of the things that I'm most proud of is, well, five seasons, 110 episodes, but also that we are exploring this topic that we are really pioneering so many different conversations.

And religious trauma is in mainstream culture. We're aware of that as a Western culture, but spiritual abuse is still not a super mainstream conversation. And I think a lot of that just has to do with the culture and, you know, the United States itself identifying as a Christian nation and, and folks more comfortable with the idea that they experienced trauma, but maybe not so comfortable with the idea that so many things that we see as Christianity.

As [00:15:00] normal regular everyday Christianity are actually objectively harmful and coercive and controlling and abusive and shaming and that conversation is probably still about five to 10 years out in terms of being mainstream. So we are pioneering. So many conversations and we're, and we've had so many public conversations already that are conversations that are happening.

Absolutely. But we made them public. And some of the topics that we have addressed on uncertain are the first time that I am aware of that they have been discussed in public. I was just thinking about one of the episodes with Keanu Hadari about Asking the question was Jesus sexually abused and exploring that subject.

Like I've never, we talked about a book. We were referencing a book up until then, like I'd never heard anyone discuss that or bring that into the public light or, or have that discussion of, is that a [00:16:00] possibility? Did that happen? Could that have happened? And so just the fact that we have just pioneered and been forerunners in this conversation, that's probably going to be happening in mainstream culture in like five years or 10 years.

All of these subjects that we are covering is that makes me very proud that, that, that has been something that we've been able to do and explore in a public way that has been helpful to people. So that, that makes me really proud. I'm very proud of that.

Erin: As you should be. What about over to Brad or Nikki for a question?

Brad: So first of all, that was awesome. And you're so right about it not being mainstream yet. Even going through a master's degree in counseling, it's a hard topic, right? Trying to get that relevant. within the education system. So let me ask you this along those lines, and then this is going to be tough for you to answer.

Okay. Because it's, it's broad. All right. Give me something or give us the audience, something that you were [00:17:00] dumbfounded to learn about, you know,

Katherine: on these

Brad: podcasts.

Katherine: Everything coming to my mind has to do with sex. So any of the podcasts that we did about sex or purity culture, I feel like I learned something and I realized like how ignorant I was. and then came to the slow realization that I was kept ignorant on purpose, like it wasn't just like, Oh, I just missed that and sex education class.

There was no sex education class. There was no discussion about. So many different things. So anytime we had like a sex coach or sex and relationship coach the sex evangelicals, Julia and Jeremiah, Lucy Rowett, Kim Cavill, I would ask questions of them, like in those interviews that like, I always wanted to ask, and I was just like, I need to ask an expert and I'm going to ask you in the context of a podcast interview, having no idea what you are going to say, because I actually don't know the answer to this question.

[00:18:00] And so. That is what's coming to mind for me of just like things that I thought about a lot more afterwards and realize the power play in so much of the approach to sex and the withholding of information within the context of church,

Nicole: Nikki. Well, I'm going to rewind back a little bit more and kind of shift. So track back five years ago. What's entered Catherine's mind to start on certain podcasts? Bum,

Katherine: bum, bum, bum. Yes. This, this origin story is tears of Eden's origin story probably came before the podcast. And in 2019, I was still at an abusive church and.

I started researching with the intent of like forming some kind of [00:19:00] more formal community for people who are leaving churches like this, because as I was going through my experience, I was talking to people all over the country, all over the world, and hearing similar stories to mine, so I just realized like, oh, My church is not the only church where this is happening.

It is happening in a lot of places. And so kind of seeing this as a potential need and then wanting to find other people that were maybe already doing this and couldn't find a lot, but did find individual like Or one couple that was ran like a retreat center, like a recovery center for people who had left cults.

And a lot of the folks who came through their center were from Bible based cults. And so the fact that they were naming that and working with that demographic of people, that was an episode with Bob pardon. That is. And the archived episodes that are accessible for monthly donors. And and I, I think about his [00:20:00] episode a lot too, because I feel like I learned a lot just from him, I think decades of working with this demographic.

But I didn't really find. A lot of organizations working with this demographic, but I just had so many interesting conversations with people. And I just wanted a way to bottle up those conversations and share them with other people. And so that's where the idea for Uncertain came from of like, why don't I just like start interviewing people thinking, Oh, this will be easy.

I'd had a podcast before. It was called Frank frog hunting and which I documented my dating dating journey. And so I'd done it before I already had a mic. So I kinda, I kinda knew what to do. And so I just started Begging, bribing, coercing, and threatening people to be on the podcast. And let me, let me interview them to talk about it.

And there was a long period of time where I debated, like, do I want this podcast to be something that I put on my website and it's like separate from the nonprofit? Do I want to [00:21:00] put them together? Are they the same thing? And I don't remember. What led to the choice of like, let's make this part of the nonprofit.

But eventually like that decision was made. I don't remember why. And, and connected it to tears of Eden as a part of tears of Eden. And it became a very pivotal part of tears of Eden for most of tears of Eden's existence. So I'm glad that that decision was made. I made the decision to keep them together.

I think I was worried about the conversations being confrontational and potentially You know, inciting, you know, kickback or whatever. And I didn't want that associated with the nonprofit. I was like, Oh, you could like kick back against me, but don't, don't do it to the nonprofit. And I mean, they became sort of integrated anyway.

So here we are. I love that question.

Nicole: I'll go up to that though. Where did the name Uncertain come from? You might have [00:22:00] said this a long time ago, but for those who came in, like, let's say year three and on where did Uncertain come from?

Katherine: Yeah, that came from a conversation at Coffee in Los Angeles pre pandemic.

So it was probably in February 2020. I was at Coffee. Thinking about the podcast, I think I maybe recorded one or two episodes at that point, hadn't named it yet. Nothing was public. I was with my friend Alex and and so I was actually very specifically talking about the name and like, I don't know what to name it.

Do I name it? Tears of Eden podcast, but tears of Eden doesn't sound tears of it. It doesn't sound like. podcast. And so I, I wasn't really sure. And she was like, well, just tell me like, what do you hope to do with it? And I just, I said, I just want to have conversations. And hold space for us to be uncertain about those conversations and not really have any like agenda and have to have an answer.

We can just [00:23:00] talk and we don't have to conclude those conversations and we can just, just be comfortable being uncertain. And she was like, uncertain. That's a good podcast name. And I was like. Oh, it is a good podcast name. And so yes, Alex Scott, wherever you are is the reason that it is named uncertain.

Erin: I love that.

I, I remember like stomping around listening to those podcasts in the early days and, and loving the name of it so much because yeah, because I felt so uncertain and I felt like all the ground around me was shaking and just to be able to know, to like link into a group and to yourself and to your interviews that, that also was engaging with uncertain topics, you know, it made me feel so less alone.

Yeah.

Katherine: And that's such a pivotal part of the recovery process, I think too, because when we're coming out of fundamentalism, the, the [00:24:00] main marketing tenant of fundamentalism is. The answers, we have the answers, we will fulfill all of these answers, we will tell you how to think we will tell you what to experience and how to feel.

And so the converse of that is being able to sit in ambiguity and uncertainty. And confusion even, and just kind of be able to sit in that and be comfortable with that and not have to have the answers and the onus to have the answers. I think is one of the things that will lead us back into fundamentalist spaces because we're looking to satisfy that, that angst that can sometimes be caused when we don't have an answer.

Erin: Yeah. And so the opposite of being uncertain is being a learner or being curious, you know, and that, that, that sort of, you, you allowed us to be inspired to do that with you, which was, which is so awesome. I kind of, in the context of being uncertain and [00:25:00] having an uncertain posture I was wondering what did the medium of podcasting.

Or even the doing of the Uncertain Podcast bring out in you in terms of strengths, and gifts, and interests, and passions? Like, what did it sort of highlight for you that you maybe before that hadn't been able to explore or know about yourself?

Katherine: I love this question so much. It's like one of those questions.

It's like, I didn't know I want somebody to ask me it, but then as soon as they're asking, and I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad someone is asking me this question. Two things come to mind. First is I learn. And I've only discovered this recently. I learned by doing, and I learned by experiencing some watching maybe.

But I learned by an experience. And so having the experience of having an interview with someone and being in that conversation with [00:26:00] someone, I learned so much and I feel like I retained so much information in that way. Also, I think when I was in grad school. Every paper that you wrote, you had like a limit of how many personal interviews you could do as, as resources for a paper.

And I always maxed out every personal interview. Cause I just really liked talking to people and learning for them. And so. When I got to do the podcast, it was like, Oh, that same part of me, like, I'm, I'm going to learn from having conversations with people more than I'm going to learn from reading their book.

Even though I did read the books of the authors that I interviewed, most of them I I, I really learned more and solidified more in having the conversation than I did from actually reading their book. And so that was a better learning experience for me. And now people are like, you're a [00:27:00] like, Oh, you must have read blah, blah, blah.

And you must have read blah, blah, blah. And you're like up to date on all of the literature, like not really, but I have talked to so and so on my podcast and we have emailed and we've had conversations through Instagram. But. Maybe you haven't read their book. But don't read, read people's books, buy books, support authors.

I will say that if you don't have the money, ask for it from a library because they will order it for you and it will be free. That's my little plug for that. But that was one thing. And then the second thing, this is a little bit interesting. That I wasn't, this was something that surprised me. So when I was growing up in a very fundamentalist patriarchal world, and there were prescribed roles for women and prescribed perspectives of how women were supposed to behave and what a good woman was.

I had a lot of people either directly tell me or passively aggressively tell me that I was mean or M E A N and or, or rude or [00:28:00] harsh or abrasive. They didn't cuss, but they probably would have called me bitchy if they did at a lot of people like make those comments about me, either in the family or in the community.

And so I had this perspective from myself that I was just this really mean disgruntled bitch. But then when I would listen to interviews. And I would like get to re re listen to it and edit it, edit it. And I could hear myself after the fact. And there were particular times where like I asked a question and my memory of the question was, Oh, that was harsher.

That was to redirect or, Oh, I shouldn't have said it that way or whatever. And I would like ruminate on it later. And then I would listen to it back a few weeks later. And I was like, Oh, I'm not. I'm not, I'm not mean, I'm not rude. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not all of these things that people had said about me.

And it took like listening back to myself in real time conversation with some [00:29:00] distance to kind of shift that perspective of myself and sort of see some of that was probably just. Put on perceptions of like what women were supposed to be like, and I just didn't fit that ideal. And I knew I didn't fit that ideal, but I didn't know that that had directly impacted my view of myself, thinking of myself as like a mean.

And rude person. Which I now know it's like, I don't, nah, that's not true. I have, I have mean moments for sure. Itchy moments for sure. But that's not who I am as like my character. And so had years of that being put on me that I got to undo in real time through podcasting. So that was a surprise.

That was a surprise gift.

Brad: So. If I can just kind of piggyback on that a little bit because I was going to ask you a similar question when you started going that direction. I don't know if people [00:30:00] completely understand what now follow this, this wacky train of thought. Okay. So you are obviously a female calling out religious stuff.

Okay. Which naturally would create angst by people that are conservative.

And you're faced with even in all those episodes, you're faced with calling out trauma and and stereotypes and all kinds of stuff that religion has, I guess you could say, impressed upon the minds of many people since they were kids.

When it came to podcasting, how did you not only heal, but keep yourself healthy while going through those episodes?

Katherine: Well, we first have to say, am I healthy? That's a, yeah. And I think that that's one of, one of many reasons why I think that the podcast is coming to a [00:31:00] close now is. The crux of my health is on the line and like my ability to stay healthy physically I'm having to make some difficult choices just for my own personal health.

And there was always, I was always aware there was going to be a time like that it was potentially going to be more than I was able to carry. And so I think. That, that was always just a NAV, a constant navigation throughout the whole experience and dealt with so much imposter syndrome, I think with the podcast of just, I just remember the first season, every episode, every time an episode would launch, I would just.

And I can guess and ruminate and all of the things. And I think always, it always came up in, you know, therapy, especially if there was like a particular episode that [00:32:00] really hit home in a specific way. Early on, there were some folks that I interviewed who, there was one particular, I was remembering that never an episode that never went up.

So there were several episodes that never went up. But when I was remembering, we were talking about characteristics of a toxic church. And I think this was in season one. And as we're having the conversation in real time, the woman that I'm talking to is like realizing that she is actually in real time in a toxic church as we were doing the interview.

And. Before the episode went up, she emailed me and she was like, I don't feel comfortable with it going up just like where I am and I put in my journey and all that kind of stuff. Of course, no problem not going up, but I was still in this like locked into this like I have to get an episode out every week.

And, and so I couldn't get an episode out that week. And, and so I couldn't because it was like care for her or. Not get an episode out. I didn't have anything else in the lineup. And [00:33:00] I just remember just feeling like such a failure because I like, couldn't get an episode up. And now I skip episodes all the time.

So like going through that experience of like, like, what is the definition of a successful podcast and having to. Define that for myself because it is a frontier terrain. And I was like, Googling some articles this morning about like podcasting and statistics and all this kind of stuff. And like, there's some podcasts of like how to do a podcast.

And if you want to be a successful, you must do it this way and blah, blah, blah, as every industry has. And realizing that it is kind of like a create your own journey. You can learn from things that other people have done, but you really have to create your own journey. And I realized pretty quickly that because of the nature of the subject, how heavy it was and how many heavy conversations I needed to listen to my body.

And if I was exhausted, if I was, if I was in trauma [00:34:00] mode, like I was, Working through something and the podcast wasn't something that was going to be help helping that that taking a break was necessary and just had to let, let go of the, the standard of, if you, you have it, you must have an episode out every week in order to be successful.

And that just became less and less important. As I realized that. I'm also a trauma survivor, and I'm also a spiritual abuse survivor, and this stuff is going to impact me, and just being aware of that, not, not pretending like I'm okay, because sometimes I'm not.

Nicole: I can understand where you're coming from with that. It's hard to juggle both, you know, sometimes, but that's another reason why we're here celebrating you, because somehow or another you got through it, and you know, you were able to do this for five years. And for those who may not know, and I don't know if I can spill the beans, [00:35:00] but she Catherine was really a one man show through the whole five years of this podcast, from, you know, obtaining the guests, obtaining the questions and the content, editing all of the episodes that you guys got to hear you know, hearing the feedback sending out newsletters.

Catherine was doing a lot and I think I can speak for her and say this came from the heart. This was a heart effort, you know, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the listeners really, really appreciate that, especially leading the support groups. When, when I connect with some of the group members, a lot of them say they found out about, you know, spiritual abuse and really what they went through from listening to the podcast.

So the podcast was not only helping people to find a safe space but it was a place, a platform. For people to be educated to really, you know, say, oh, wait a minute. I went through that too. That's what that's called. And so I just want to honor you [00:36:00] for, you know, the sacrifices that you made to make this be a real thing.

That's been a lifeline for so many. And since I'm on that. I want to focus on the listeners now because you see the numbers, you see the hits and a lot of people have tapped into Uncertain Podcasts over the past five years. And if you're out there listening, we just want to honor you and thank you for sticking with the podcast and sticking with Tears of Eden and listening to all the episodes.

We really appreciate you for that. But what is some being the fact that you have focused on the listeners a lot. It's not just about, Oh, I like this, this guest. Let me grab that person and put them on. It's okay. Where are the listeners now? We covered this in season one. Now we're going to cover this in season two.

You've been very Intentive as far as how you want it to lay this stuff out. What are some of the messages or some of the themes that you really hoped in your heart? Dr. [00:37:00] Listeners would, would gain from hearing the episodes. What is it that you wanted them to really know and glean from the podcast?

Katherine: Yeah, and I'm really glad that you highlighted that because I think that that is important. Concept to maintain when you're creating any kind of content is who is your audience? And I had to keep in mind, and I did every time I did an interview, Like survivors. And sometimes I would be thinking of specific survivors.

I had had conversations with and questions that we had asked each other and would take those questions. Sometimes I would send out emails to like, if I knew someone really liked a certain author and they had maybe written a blog post about the author, I would like send them a DM. And I was like, . And so I would like send them direct message or an email and just be like, Hey, send me some questions.

I'm going to email interview them tomorrow. And so like kind of keeping that person. In mind [00:38:00] as these conversations are happening every time, every, yeah, just like even how the questions are formed. And I think that the, yeah, just the reality that there are some conversations that we've had on the podcast that I really haven't seen anywhere before publicly.

We did a, a podcast with Laura Anderson on anger, and I think I've seen a few things on anger and the health of anger in other places, usually in the psychology world, not necessarily in the, in the Jesus world. So but just having that conversation also with Laura Anderson, we talked about second wave fundamentalism, the idea of like, we leave these fundamentalist spaces and then we go recreate deconstruction spaces.

Using the same principles that we learned in the fundamentalist spaces. No one's talking about that, like, right now. Like, we're having these conversations that are just, like, before, before it's [00:39:00] time, you know, coming, coming up We had an episode on forgiveness. That was one episode that I was really excited about the episode that we just aired last week that before we did this episode was going to be the last episode with Jani Amon about what if I get sued, protecting yourself when telling your story?

There's not information about that out there. I'm not finding it like I've looked at at a lot of, a lot of it is just like having so many conversations with people and kind of piecing it all together. I don't remember the question, Nikki, I apologize. Where am I going?

Nicole: No, no, I think you're answering it.

Just, you know, what are some of the themes that, you know, you really wanted the listeners to grab hold of and you just said anger and you know what to do with that and forgiveness, which is what I call the F word when you start talking to a spiritual abuse survivor. So yeah, I don't know if there's any more that you can think.

Katherine: Yeah. And I'm also thinking of just like the, the numbers if we're looking at [00:40:00] statistics of like what, what episodes were most listened to people wanted pragmatic, practical advice. Those were the episodes that people will listen to the topic based on the topic for something very practical and pragmatic celebrities.

Most of our listeners did not care. Like I would have on like some big name person and think that it was going to get, You know, thousands of listeners and it got like a hundred and it was like, they don't care if the person is popular, like they were, our listeners were looking for practical application and practical advice for this season.

And that, you know, definitely helped tailor The content of like, this is what, what people want and what they need and what they're looking for. Yeah, so that was really, really special to kind of have that connection to our audience of like, what this audience is looking for. And then also know, like, I am a part of that audience and [00:41:00] like, Oh, Kind of pulling from what do I want to know more about and who are people that I really want to have a conversation with.

I'm thinking about Makoto Fujimora. And we just talked about healing trauma through creating art. That's also an archive episode available to monthly subscribers, but that conversation was so cool. And yeah, I was just like, I emailed Makoto, like, Probably like four times. And then finally he like responded to me.

I was in line to get COVID tested and I like on my phone, got the email that he was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't check this email very often. And I was like, he's going to be on my podcast. And so, yeah, so there was just a lot of conversations that were just kind of came out of like, what did I want to talk about and what was important to me to learn about too, as well.

Erin: I just love how orderly we're doing this. There's like, on my screen, it's like Brad and then Nikki and then it's like so ordered. It's [00:42:00] so proud of us.

Katherine: This organization is spot on. I'm very impressed.

Erin: We did a lot. It's like we planned it, but we didn't. Exactly. Okay. I love that we're talking about actual podcasting.

Cause when I was thinking about this, this interview with you, I was thinking about how important the actual Thing of like, the, the means of podcasting is and how you engaged with it and how it was somewhere different 5 years ago, really in the world podcasting as it is now. And my question for you about that, I kind of see you as someone who is in terms of ending uncertain for right now.

The baton on. Oh, I love that. To someone or lots of people. Yeah. I don't know who they're, but you're doing that. I feel that too. Yes. I feel like you're making space and you're saying you know what you're doing. Like the responsible, beautiful thing of saying, I think. My time here now is [00:43:00] done, but someone else will come and take it on.

So in light of that, in the hope of that happening, cause we would love for people, right. Like, yeah. Continue to engage with this stuff in this way. My question is what wisdom do you have for folks who are going to take the baton and engage in the intersection of, between spiritual abuse and podcasting?

Katherine: Yeah. I think a lot of people feel pressure to start a podcast because it's just something that everyone's doing.

And it's kind of like, if you have an organization or you have a business, like start a podcast and it's kind of something that people. I think maybe feel like they need to do. And, and so my first thing would be like, do it if it's something you really want to do and like, you're really excited about it.

And like, for me, the, the excitement was having these conversations and getting able, being [00:44:00] able to bring them to people. And, and that was the foundation of the excitement for doing this. And so find out whatever your reason is for doing it and let that be. Your passion for doing it, but don't just do a podcast just because everyone else is doing it.

Cause the market is saturated, not saturated with this subject. The subject is not a saturated subject. But yeah, do something that is exciting to you and you might have to discover that. As you're podcasting. And I think that that happened for me of like, I figuring out what type of guests I did like talking to and figuring out which ones I didn't like talking to and just kind of figuring out like, what did listeners, what were they enjoying and what were they maybe not super excited about?

And so like, it's just like anything. Let your passion drive you and , and then be willing to kind of learn along the way. And yeah, those are some of [00:45:00] the, some of the thoughts that I had.

Erin: No, that's brilliant. Thank you. Thanks for passing

Katherine: it on.

I like that pass the baton. I do really feel that way. I like, I feel like it is time for other people to join this conversation and carry this, this conversation through this. mechanism. Yes. It's time for other people to step into this. I do definitely feel that a little bit.

Erin: Okay. So follow up question really quick in your imagination and in your knowledge of the field, who, who are they?

I really

Katherine: hope it's a woman.

Erin: Sorry. Yeah.

Katherine: Or a, or a minority person that had that lived experience. There's already a lot of white men doing this and, and I'm, I'm sorry, Brad, I'm just tired of hearing from white men. I get it. So is he, so tired of it.

I am tired of this too. [00:46:00] Yeah. I just, I just feel like as I, I mean, I kind of went on a fast from. White men in terms of like, I'm not reading books by them. I'm not listening to their podcasts just to kind of, cause I just realized that I was still being drawn to the white male as a voice of authority and trust.

And so I felt like I just needed to sort of detox and, and then just realizing that members of the BIPOC community members of the LGBTQ plus community, women. Are doing amazing work. Like, it's not like we're like missing something, with the absence of the white man, that we are, we're not missing anything.

If we don't have the white male voice. Right now we just aren't so and so I just really hope that the folks who feel that and I think that as someone who like, that's probably my main source of trauma from the church of having gifts that were praised in men, but [00:47:00] because I was a woman, they were sidelined and silenced and shut down.

And then saying, fuck you, literally. And creating a podcast where I sermoned and taught and did all the things that I wasn't allowed to do in the context of church and faced all of the imposter syndrome and all of the, all of the voices telling me that I shouldn't be doing this, that I was doing something wrong by doing this, that I wasn't qualified, that I didn't know what I was talking about.

And, and recognizing that there are a lot of people out there that feel that way and maybe aren't talking. Because of that, because of that oppression and because of being shut down and silenced. And I want to hear from you. So get your mic and start podcasting.

Brad: First of all, I totally agree with everything you said. Totally. Thanks, Brad. I don't even listen to white men. I don't even listen to myself half the time. But anyway right because I want to hear from [00:48:00] minorities. as well. And then they do an outstanding job on every podcast I've listened to, whatever have you, if it's not a white male, I actually enjoy it more.

So that being the case and, and, and Aaron, that was a great question. And, and handing off the baton, knowing what you being considered for all my books, I'm reading school, a minority, Being female, right? What would you say to someone that's thinking about picking up the baton and going with it, that is not a white male, but has trauma from this?

I mean, what, what would you like? You had mentioned about, Hey, people really like to listen to the practical application. Would you say to them to encourage them or to support them? I hate the word encouraged because it's flashbacks. Bible

Katherine: hood.

Brad: So what would you say to support them? [00:49:00] And, and, and picking up that endeavor.

Katherine: What's coming to mind is just how deeply embedded fundamentalism was still in my body once I left. And it just took a lot of time and a lot of just like aha moments. A lot of times. In the context of a podcast interview. And so just enjoying that journey and I'm grateful that the podcast itself was called uncertain.

And I said that word every time there was an episode, because I think it was just kind of like a subconscious reminder of like, just because you don't wrap up the episode with a neat little bow. To tell someone how to do X, Y, Z what's important is that the conversation happened. And you don't have to set yourself up as an expert in a subject to ask questions about it.

I [00:50:00] like that. That's cool. I like that. You don't have to set yourself up as an expert in order to ask questions about it.

Brad: That's awesome.

Katherine: I like that.

Brad: Yeah.

Katherine: That's what I have to say.

Nicole: Okay. Time to get a little vulnerable. I think I know the answer to this question, but I

Katherine: feel

Nicole: very

Katherine: by you, Nicky, your voice is,

I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being here

Nicole: since we're on the topic of, you know, the, the time being passed and you know, more conversations around this topic, I just want to bring some reality to it. Because yes, it's helpful. It's informative. It's supportive to the community, but it's not easy. You know, like I said earlier, you've done a lot of this on your own and I'm pretty sure there's been some bumps in the road.

So real vulnerable question within the five year span of doing this, [00:51:00] were there any moments when you felt like giving up and just saying, you know what, I can't do this anymore. And if so, how did you overcome it?

Katherine: Yes, definitely. . I think there was a, there was a time a couple of years ago, Nikki were very much a part of that season.

That was really, really challenging in. The life of the nonprofit and it really impacted me physically had a genuine trauma response. I think that was the season I both met Aaron and Brad in that season. So I was definitely like at the bottom of the bottom. And I took a month off from the Podcasts from the nonprofit just didn't check email.

Didn't do the Instagram, didn't interview. And I really just sat with like this and like asked myself the question I asked my body, [00:52:00] cause I was, it was a physical impact on my body and I just sat with. Like just asking my body, like you have done enough. You survived abuse as a child. You survived abuse as a teenager.

You survived abuse as an adult. You've experienced so much abuse. You have gotten me through so much. Like you are in charge. Are you ready to be done? Is this the end for you? Are you, are you done? And just like really wanted, and I was really, really willing to just say, if my body is speaking to me and telling me we're done.

Like be willing to, to to end the whole thing and didn't at the time feel like it was time to close up shop. Didn't feel like it was over. Didn't feel like the journey was over yet. But I definitely came out of that. Very intentionally. I just started like writing down my hours for tears of Eden.

And even though I knew I had worked so [00:53:00] much for tears of Eden, I hadn't ever written it down, so I didn't know how much and realized I had worked way more than I thought I did. For Tears of Eden. And so when I'm like getting to Wednesday and I've already done 17 hours for Tears of Eden and I also have a full time job and I'm also in school and I'm also doing other creative projects, I, I was like, okay, that's enough.

Like that is enough for this this work and, and having to be just really intentional about caring for myself. And I think that that's something that every nonprofit leader has to navigate of like, you do so much pouring out to help other people and finding the line of like. Where are you losing yourself in that process?

And I definitely think the physical impact of that challenging season showed me that I had. Like kind of [00:54:00] fragmented a little bit and, and needed to spend some more time just integrating and, and approaching, approaching myself with the same care that I maybe approached other people with and not something that is easy to do at all and it, and it isn't.

And I think that's some of the reasons for the ending of the podcast here is just Again, being in a season where my body has experienced a physical impact and wanting to care for my body and also recognizing it's for the health of the nonprofit too, because if the leader of the nonprofit is exhausted and burnout, that's not healthy for the nonprofit either.

And so it's, they go together. So that is yes. So how did you keep going? Well, I kind of did it, it kind of led to some overhauling of the system. And I think when you reach that [00:55:00] point of, do I want to keep doing this or am I ready to be done, that's a beautiful moment of just. Restock reassess. And I am not a fan of anyone doing something they don't want to do.

And like, if you were for whatever reason you don't want to, I'm not a fan of pushing through that. There are times sure that we do have to do that, but it's a lot less than I think that we have been conditioned to believe, especially in religiosity. And I think that. The pushing, if we feel like we're pushing through and just making it happen, that we're not really in it.

Just take a beat, take a beat five minutes, 10 minutes, five days, 50 days. Whatever you need to just kind of restock.

Nicole: That's that is so good. Catherine. And it's real, you being transparent not just being podcast and running the non profit, but I just [00:56:00] think for survivors religious trauma survivors, spiritual abuse survivors and this, this is, this is gonna make sense with all this, but sometimes we come out of what we've come out of, and You know, we look for justice, right?

You know, we were either sexually abused or physically abused and manipulated in these spaces and we want justice. And as I always say, we can't go march down to the local precinct and say, Hey, Pastor so and so did so and so, you know? So there is this this desire, this voice that is not witness, this grief that is not witness of what just occurred.

And sometimes if we haven't stopped to process and work through that, we can easily go into the activism side. Of, you know, this is wrong, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but before you know it, we're in the activism side, then maybe the advocate side, and, you know, now we have a podcast, now we have a Instagram account, [00:57:00] now we're on TikTok, and we're saying all the things, not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but taking needed breaks to say, okay, why am I doing this, right, and is this harming me physically, is this harming me mentally and psychologically, to hold all of this, And then go out and be a voice.

Sometimes being a voice and having a greater reach is by resting, is by taking a break, is by getting the therapy, working through a lot of that first. And then if something opens up, then go for it. You know, but I, I sell that to say, you know, how you handled the podcast in the past five years is an example of that.

You asked your body important questions. You included your body and say, Hey. What's up, because we've been through a lot together. What say you and your body and the rest of your faculties were like, you know what, this isn't the time right now, you know, I will work with you. [00:58:00] So you can continue to do the work.

But now you're saying their body is saying, It's time to lay this down. And so I commend you for that because sometimes this work, it can seem so enormous. It's like, but I got to be a voice and people are depending on me and who else is going to talk about spiritual abuse this way. And I've got all these topics that have yet to be talked about.

So I have to keep going. I'm, I'm putting this out to the listeners, some of you out there since the five years you've been there from the beginning to the end and you've been inspired by the guest, you've been inspired by Catherine and you're like, I'm rolling up my sleeves and I'm going to do the thing too.

Not saying don't, but sit with your body. I'm pretty sure your body has been through a lot, listeners, with the, what you've been through and spiritual abuse and see if it's the time, if it's the vehicle. Is this, you know, the format. You know, really consider that. And don't leave your [00:59:00] body behind. Nobody's left behind.

Can I say that? Don't leave your body behind, don, your body behind the work.

Katherine: That's the title of this

Nicole: episode. That's I didn't wanna get. Don't leave your body behind because your body is an integral part of the healing. You know, it's not just our soul, it's not just our spirit, but the trauma is in our bodies and it has a voice and wants to speak to.

So I say that to say, Catherine, thank you for listening to your body. Of course, we will miss you on the podcast streets, but we have five seasons to go and rewind and listen to. And we are grateful for you and what you're doing for yourself and for the nonprofit.

Katherine: Thank you, Nikki. I appreciate it. And I do think that the like that, the episodes, like, they're not, I don't think that they're time sensitive episodes.

I think like those resources are still accessible and they'll still be on the podcast, still be on the [01:00:00] website. And now they'll still be on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And so they're not. Episodes, I don't feel like most of them are episodes where they're like, Oh, they're only relevant for this certain season.

I think that a lot of these, these are like active resources that are going to be continue to be available. And I feel very good about. What resources we've created through this podcast. And I'm very happy that they will still be there. So it's like, we're ending the podcast, but this, this creation still exists.

I appreciate that. Thank you,

Erin: In the light of what Nikki was talking about in terms of you grounding in your body and really knowing yourself and being able to. like bend to the decision your body is making at different points. I am making a huge assumption in this question that you have loved working with the three of us.[01:01:00]

That it has been a joy for you. And I'm saying that because it's been a joy for me. And so as I've been And it's like a true joy, you know, like when joy is real joy and you know that because it becomes a source of healing so my question, it's true. And so my question is about like what's, how do you reflect on, you know, Working alone versus working in a team, what does it mean for you to have a team?

What do you yeah, just like, how do you reflect? I, I, I guess I asked that because I see a lot of folks coming from places of great hurt in community and religious communities and wanting to take it alone and wanting to go solo and wanting to be Mavericks. And I. Validate that, you know, that needs to [01:02:00] happen for safety.

How do you reflect though on finding people who you can work with who are safe and how do you do that? You do that discerning and how do you do that work?

Katherine: Yeah. Whew. There's a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, and I think of like, yeah, like, and I think of like the idea of like wanting to do it alone and needing to do it alone and like, yeah, that is a season that some people needed to go through.

 I think it's really scary. And I think that some of the earlier renditions of tears of Eden, the team wasn't great. And the early people that were involved, I'm not all of them, but a lot of the earlier people.

And I think. Some of that was just like where I was, I was so just out of fundamentalism. And so I picked people who were still in fundamentalism. And so some of those same toxic you know, relational dynamics [01:03:00] still existed within that context of just like passive aggressiveness and, you know, pretending that everything was fine, but you know, it's not.

And, and some of that stuff. And so I think that was some of the. What led to the, do I want to keep doing this? And, and having a good team is so important for enjoying the experience. Oh my gosh, it's so important. But we don't always have the resources to have a good team, to build a good team, to choose a good team.

And, and Some of that is not our fault, like we've been infused with really toxic ways of interacting with people. And, and so, and sometimes we just don't feel safe in community. I know that that was hard for me when I started taking like classes, improv classes. And, and being a part of a class and seeing the same people every week, it felt a little bit like going to church.

And I was, I [01:04:00] had a lot of just like anxiety about just being a part of a group that I saw consistently. And it's sometimes easier to not have that and just have like some one off relationships and kind of go solo because a group and a community and a team could feel really activating. And that's not bad.

And it's also not our fault if we feel that way. And it actually probably means that we were hurt in the context of the community and that's a real thing. So not an answer to the question, I don't think, but just some thoughts. No, it was the answer because I just

Erin: asked you to reflect and you did. And so, yeah, thank you so much.

I won. Yeah, you definitely won.

Brad: This isn't so much a question. It's just a observation of how you answered Nikki's question. By the way, I've been absolutely dumbfounded by the awesome questions of the [01:05:00] board. I think you ladies have done amazing with your questions. Think that your self awareness is head and shoulders above many people I, I meet.

And the reason I say that is within organized religion, people in leadership are taught to the plow through to continue on to push through to it's all for Jesus, right? I mean, like, leave it here because you get the party later or worship later. I mean, like, you know, it's it's a focus on the afterlife more than it is on being healthy here.

I would, I would argue you being able to. Look and step back and say, no, I'm not going to follow that pattern. I think is something a lot of people miss within themselves, because when they leave organized religion, they adhere to those patterns. They just switch it into a different avenue. [01:06:00] Right. But you go, no, I'm going to make sure that pattern never becomes a part of my life.

Nicole: And

Brad: so I just wanted to commend you on your self awareness and recognizing that and something that we all can learn because I've seen people on Instagram that they are trying to heal, but they go from one extreme and religion to fighting and doing the same thing. That they were doing religion against religion, the same methods and everything, and they never heal, but you show healing.

And so I just appreciate that. And I appreciate that vulnerability, that display of wisdom.

Katherine: That means so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Nicole: , Brad, you brought up some great points and, you know, I think we can all look at that and, and look at, like I said, Catherine's example of, Hey, you know, I want to take care of me in the midst of [01:07:00] trying to help others. I don't want to lose myself. As I'm helping others, you know I heard someone often say there's enough trauma in the world for everybody to have a place to, to try to help and work and see people recover, but not at the expense of us, you know, losing ourselves.

So as we're, as we're winding down. I think, you know, speaking on behalf of the board and the listeners like I said earlier, we're just honored for your sacrifice over these past five years. You know, even the times you had to stay up late or you lost some sleep or, you know, like the times you were ready to give up.

We're grateful that you didn't in the five years. And even now, we don't look at this as a giving up. This is a necessary ending, both for you physically, mentally, emotionally. and professionally. You know, thank you for what you have done to help so many, so many survivors out there and podcast world.

If there was one last message that you could [01:08:00] give the listeners the guests that may still be listening, even though they were guests at one point, what would you say? What would you leave? And this last episode to, to the listeners out there.

Katherine: And it's okay to cry

Yeah. I think I think, I mean maybe I'll just talk to myself of just like , just like, just hang out here. Like, just stay present. Enjoy this moment. We didn't talk about the future. And I think that that's good. Like we don't have to, we don't have to end this, but don't worry. We have all of these wonderful things coming.

Like we can, we can just be in this place. So, you know, saying goodbye, ending a season, celebrating. Being together, being present, reflecting, and that's enough. We don't have to come up with a grand vision and plan for [01:09:00] right now. That's that's at the board meeting in August, for now we could just be present and I think for anyone who is listening, whether you're joining us, just For the first time, maybe, or you have been an active listener or you are a friend that I have texted this episode too, because I want you to listen to it.

That it's, if there's some sadness associated with this, there's some sadness for me. Absolutely. Like judge, we can just kind of hang out with that and hang out with those emotions and that feeling, and we don't have to do anything with it. You can just be. That's what I'm feeling right now.

Nicole: Okay. Well, we love that. Just being, it might be foreign to us coming out of the spaces we've come out of, you know, Brad, I love Aaron's face. I wish I

Katherine: could capture that in audio. I didn't

Nicole: see it. I didn't see

Erin: it. It's so good. That was so good. No, [01:10:00]

Nicole: I'm, you know, like Brad just said, we're always in the futuristic, you know, it's very hard for us to be in the present, but I like what you're saying, Catherine, you know, just be.

And, you know, even though Catherine didn't go into what we, what we're doing next. I will, I personally encourage the listeners, if you've not joined to be a monthly subscriber and you know, you came in listening to the podcast season three, season four, or maybe even season five maybe you can go back and, and, and, you know, become a subscriber to support tears of Eden.

We're doing a lot of shifting because we want tears of Eden to be here for the long haul. But there are a lot of great episodes back in the archive episodes that like, you know, Catherine said they're timeless. So wherever you are in your journey, I'm pretty sure you can glean from a lot of stuff that was poured out in those podcasts.

So think about it, think about becoming a monthly subscriber. It will support the work, but it will also [01:11:00] support you at the same time. Brad, Aaron, anything you want to leave the listeners with. As we get ready to close out.

Brad: Well, white man has talked enough.

Katherine: That's another good title for the episode.

Nicole: That's it. Done. Done.

Erin: I never have talked enough. I have one more thing to say. The, the word that comes to my mind listening to you all today is gift. Keep thinking about you being a gift to this space and the, what wider world of spiritual abuse and, and religious trauma, Katherine.

And what I also hear you say is that doing the podcast has been a gift to you. There's been something at moments where you've been able to use it for your own sense of growth and awareness. And that's been a gift, which is awesome. And so, yeah, just to reiterate what Nikki has invited all of you to do I ask that if Years of Eden has been a gift to you, or Uncertain has been a gift to you, that you would [01:12:00] give back and consider being a monthly donor, because this work is going to continue on and on.

And sadly, we have a lot more work to do. There are a lot more people who need help. To feel what we've all felt, which is the sense of risk, frustration, community, and and that there's life after racial abuse and religious trauma.

Katherine: I love y'all and apply to be on the board. You get to be a part of this.

There's a, there's a way to apply on the website. Just go to tearsofeden. org slash team. Thank you for wanting to have a moment to celebrate. And having that idea and being willing to make this time, it's very meaningful to me to have this really amazing job.

Brad: Thank you, Catherine, for everything you've done. Yeah,

Nicole: this was great. Brad, you are hilarious. I'm coming up to New York and we're going to go grab a drink or something because you couldn't make this crack up.

Come on up and we'll go

Brad: out on the town. We will burn it

Katherine: down. That's right. [01:13:00] Board

Brad: retreat in New York City. Here we go. Yes, please.

Katherine: Do you live in New York City, right Brad?

Brad: Just outside of it. Just outside of Brooklyn and Queens.

Katherine: All right. We need to Do we need to do a retreat to Yes, please. To New York.

Nicole: Oh, we'll. We'll, we will eat like kings and queens. Be

Erin: amazing.

Nicole: Yes. I love

Erin: food.

Nicole: Oh, it's so good.

Brad: That's, see, I knew Erin. I loved you for a reason there. It's See

Erin: the food. We both love it.

Brad: There we

Erin: go. Like a good food plate. I love food too.

Nicole: Especially all the, all the fasting I did in those colds. I'm like, give me food. I don't want to hear about fasting right now. Unless it's for medical reasons. New York City is the place to be for food.

That's right. That's right. Oh, I can't wait. We'll hit the town. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. Are you

Erin: guys joking or not? Because I really [01:14:00] wanna do this. I listen, I wanna

Nicole: do this. Listen, I'm gonna do this too.

Erin: Let's do

Katherine: New York in the fall. The fall is great. Oh, it's so

Brad: beautiful. .

Erin: Yeah, let's go to New York City in the fall. How about

Katherine: Easter next year? Just kidding.

Erin: Yeah, that sounds better. Sorry, Bishop.

Brad: You go back to him and you say, Hey, listen, I got a better

Erin: offer.

Brad: I can, I can do it. Let's go.

Katherine: Sounds like so much fun.

Nicole: I love it. So Catherine, how do you, how do you feel about how today went? It was great.

Katherine: Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for having the idea, Aaron. And thank you all for being here. It was fun. I appreciate it. Needed, needed the time to just kind of sit with things and commemorate. And it was nice to do it with people. Thank you all, everybody.

Nicole: You're welcome. Have lovely day. Yes, thank you everybody. Stay safe. Bye. Stay safe.

Erin: Lots of [01:15:00] love. Bye bye. Bye bye.

For the final time. This podcast is produced, hosted, and edited by me, Catherine Spearing. If you would like to support the ongoing work of Tears of Eden, please visit tears of eden.org/support to give a donation.

Thank you to all of our amazing listeners, all the best and signing off for now.

This is one of the most important and practical episodes you will likely ever listen to! As more people speak out publicly, sharing their stories of abuse in the church, more and more churches, denominations, and pastors are growing litigious, further abusing victims in civil court. If you're thinking of going public with your story, LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE! 

Featuring Jenai Auman, author of the recently released book Othered.

We'll Cover: 

• Question to ask yourself before going public with your story

• Things to consider before going public

• Tips to mitigate your risk

• HOW to prepare IF you get sued

• What to expect from lawyers

• And More

* Disclaimer: This is NOT legal Advice! * 

Read this article, written by Jenai, that inspired Katherine to ask her to talk about this on the podcast. This is seriously one episode Katherine has REALLY wanted to do. 

Jenai wrote a companion article with examples of corroboration here. 

Jenai Auman is a Filipina American writer, artist, and author of Othered. She draws from her experience and education to write on healing, hope, and holistic spiritual formation practices.

Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners

Sign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings

[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain.

Starting in April of this year, I began partnering with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, working as a practitioner for this organization. This organization's CEO is Dr. Laura Anderson. You may be familiar with her. She's been on the pod a couple of different times. She's also the author of the book, When Religion Hurts You.

She's awesome. She's the boss. I work with her and a bunch of other really great practitioners over there. If you are looking for mental health professional, a trained, highly qualified, highly experienced mental health professional that can help you navigate religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and all of the sub categories that fall beneath that.

I encourage you to check out Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. I am currently accepting a few new clients, and there are several other practitioners that are also accepting clients. I know that's a big thing that comes up a lot in the religious trauma spiritual abuse [00:01:00] world is folks just really struggling to find a mental health professional that understands religious trauma and spiritual abuse and the nuances and complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism and church culture.

So if that is something that you are looking for, I encourage you to check them out. The link will be in the show notes. Also in April of this year, I signed a book deal with Lake Dry Books. My book, Surprise Surprise is about spiritual abuse. It will be coming out in sometime in 2025.

 Date is yet to be determined, so I encourage you to sign up for Tears of Eden's mailing list for updates on the release of that book. The need that this book is going to fill in the world of religious trauma and spiritual abuse recovery, that is something that I see lacking in the

It's the need of making the connection between the theology of evangelicalism that actually leads [00:02:00] to the abuse happening. I'm not seeing that a lot in the literature today. Our guest a couple of weeks ago, Krista Brown, she made that connection in her memoir, Baptist Land. But outside of that, it's not really a common thing that folks are addressing.

 So I felt like it was a pretty important subject to navigate in my book. It's going to be mostly. Following my journey of recovery, but it's not a memoir and it is also going to be pulling some stuff from the work with Tears of Eden. There are direct quotes from podcasts that you may have listened to

So sign up for the mailing list so that you can get updates about that. Today's guest is my friend and colleague Janai Allman, and I am so excited about this episode. This is an episode that I have been wanting to do for a couple years. And a few weeks before Janai had, and I had this episode scheduled to record, she sent out a Substacks article about the very subject [00:03:00] that we're going to be talking about today.

We are going to talk about her book that just came out, Othered, and we are going to talk about the book a little bit as well, But Janai graciously agreed to have this conversation with me because we both learned a lot of things about telling our stories publicly and how to stay safe and also make sure we get to say our side of the story and those two things are super important on the other side of abuse.

So very excited about this episode. I hope this is one that people will re listen to over and over and over again, and I am so excited to be able to include this as a resource for Tears of Eden and for folks who encounter Tears of Eden. Janai Almon is a Filipina American writer and artist who draws from her years in church leadership as well as her trauma informed training to write on healing, hope, and the way forward.

She is passionate about providing language to readers so they can find a faith inspiring that freeze. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science, and is currently pursuing a [00:04:00] master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Janiyah lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Tyler, and their sons, Quinn and Graham.

Here is my interview with Janiyah Allman

Katherine: Hello, Janai.

Jenai: Hi. How are you? I'm really good. I'm so glad we're doing this.

Katherine: Yes, me too. I'm very excited about this episode and the subject that we are going to talk about today because it is one, as you and I have, talked about prior to the episode is something that is a big discussion within the survivor community for folks who are wanting to go public with their stories and discussing how to protect ourselves from the potential for a civil lawsuit.

It is not an uncommon thing and it's becoming more common like I'm, I'm seeing it happen a lot. You just went through experience of writing a book before we [00:05:00] jumped on, you talked about going through a legal review when you were writing your book. So everything that we're sharing today is going to just be to help people have some awareness about this experience of going public with your story and protecting yourself because you want to, you want to protect yourself.

As we jump in, I definitely want to highlight your book . So give folks a just rundown of what your book is and why you wanted to write this book.

Jenai: Yeah, I, so my book is a faith oriented book, so I know that some people who might listen to Uncertain, they might be in varying degrees of faith, or totally deconverted altogether, I make space for the deconverted, and but also, I wrote this space reorienting, or I wrote the book reorienting, like, how I posture myself to Like the stories in the Bible and I weave in personal narrative.

So this is what I experienced. How does that, how is that at all in accord with scripture? How, and it isn't [00:06:00] a lot of what I experienced while working on staff at a church, one of those churches that are often in those podcasts where they talk about the main guy who started the affiliation yelling at people.

Like, I think people, I was a part of a very high control, very toxic masculinity church planting network. And I was ostracized and kicked out essentially othered in from my church because I wouldn't, I wouldn't shut up and I wouldn't, I wouldn't stop advocating for myself. And so I wrote othered.

To tell my story and to essentially provide a road map to this is why I still am a Christian. I kind of detangled my experience of that space from the harm I experienced. And I have found a renewed relationship in God. However, it doesn't land per like I'm not in a church today. I'm not and some people, they are so mad that I'm not in a church today.

Which, that's like a whole other thing. And then other people are going to be mad that

Katherine: you still identify as a [00:07:00] Christian. Yeah.

Jenai: Yeah. Like I'm not in a church. I still identify as a Christian. I'm in seminary. So that makes it like even kookier for people. And, and so I sit in a weird place where even as I tell my story, sometimes I still feel very othered because I haven't landed where other people wanted me to land.

But that's kind of the whole point. Like I want people to feel free to land wherever, even my, like, I don't mention my husband very often, but even my husband has landed somewhere different in faith. And that's like much more toward deconversion. And so I hold space for a lot of different people. So anyway, I wrote other, I share, it's not a memoir.

So it doesn't tell even people get mad whenever I say, I don't say everything that happened in the book, and I think we're going to talk about all of that and maybe why I didn't do that. A lot of that is just to protect myself. I think a lot of people want that, though, and they don't understand the risk that goes into telling everything like in a memoir style.

I just use [00:08:00] pieces of the story. Like, my story is not up for debate. But I just used these instances, instances and moments to say, here's where something in me fractured and I had to find my way back to myself again. So yeah, I'm really glad to share.

Katherine: Absolutely. And I really appreciate you sort of setting things up and just kind of letting folks know like this is where I have landed.

Yeah, I had space for other people for where they have landed. I think that's really helpful because I think a lot of folks from evangelicalism will, like, come on and talk about you know, what they believe. And there is this, like, very subtle agenda of, like, I want you to believe the same thing as me which comes straight out of, These toxic evangelical cultures of like, we can't interact with you unless you believe the same thing.

And so I really appreciate that. You've set it up that way and that you have written the book that way

pertaining to the subject that we're going to [00:09:00] discuss today. What did you, what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put it on all of the other public writing that you have written.

 You may already know this, but

 the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support.

 You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening.

And now back to the show.

Katherine: what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put [00:10:00] it on all of the other public writing that you have written.

Jenai: Yeah. Well, it was, I can imagine cause there was a lot of back and forth between me and the leadership of the church of like, what was wrong, what wasn't wrong. And, and I was watching them and this is probably something you, you resonate with also, but like watching them make it make sense in their heads, like take this really.

dumb argument that they've made and they've kind of loaded it with a lot of Christian speak to somehow justify like whatever conclusion that they came to. So in short, I was terminated from my position. They never used the word terminated though. They always used transition out. That was kind of a part of the The Christian speak, you know, yes, it made it sound like more polite to them as if what they weren't what they were doing to me was not impolite or like rude or loving.

They were like, Oh, we're just transitioning her out. We're just like jet [00:11:00] gently pushing her out and telling her to shut the hell up. I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a you're allowed to pass.

Katherine: Yes.

Jenai: And so Yeah, I was like, you use these grace laced words and so I kind of started fighting back with no, you're not supposed to do this isn't so in many ways the book and the book's not an argument.

It's not formatted as an argument. It is essentially kind of how I kept fighting back. And I don't even say this in the book. It's it was my resistance and how my resistance played out over the course of time Using the very scriptures that they were trying to use against me and I was saying no, no, no, no, no Like

Katherine: yeah,

Jenai: you know I think a big a big banner scripture and it's not in the book at all Ezekiel 34 like you are feeding on the sheep I am a sheep that was in your care and the ways in which I was treated wasn't okay And you're supposed to hear my voice And you didn't just not hear me.

You like silenced me. And [00:12:00] so writing the book was pivotal for me because I think many other people are having to deal with that too. That doublespeak, duplicitousness. And they don't know how to combat it. And for whatever reason, maybe it's my stubborn, Filipina nature or maybe it's a little bit of like Texas stubborn in me as well, but I was like you You will not overpower me.

You have done everything to like push me out, but I I will Like there was something stubborn in me that was like, I will dig down. Cause I know something in this is not right. And I'm going to keep speaking up. So yeah, I thought it was super pivotal to give people language. And I think some of that says that in my bio, like I want to provide people with language.

I don't know what it is. I don't want to tell people what to do, but I want to give them language to say, this is what my resistance looks like, and

Katherine: I

Jenai: hope and healing, I think healing and resistance are both and and I think this is what you can envision for yourself also.

Katherine: Right. I love that healing and resistance are both [00:13:00] and and for whatever reason that someone chooses to go public with their story.

Part of that reason could just could be the healing reason like that. That is that feels important to me as a part of my healing. I need this story to be public. It could be just to teach people as you, as you chose to do just to sort of show people. Here are. other ways to interpret these things that these power hoarders are just, you know, funneling at you and there's so many of them and they're so powerful and they're so convincing and they're so nice when they say it, it's really hard to, to fight back even just in our own minds.

So there's so many reasons why someone feels that it's important. to go public with their story. And what we're going to talk about today, folks, is how to protect yourself if you decide to go [00:14:00] public with your story. Disclaimer at the very beginning. Neither Janai nor I are legal counsel, we are not lawyers, we have life experience that we are going to share, we are going to give recommendations, but we encourage everyone to do your own research, look into this yourself, know what the risks are because there are risks.

When you put your story of being abused in public and make the best wise decision for you and your health and where you are in your story. So with that disclaimer, we're going to kind of talk about two different parts in this episode. One, we're just going to talk about ways that you can safely tell your story that might mitigate your opportunities or the potential risk of being sued by someone.

Yeah. That said. Someone can file a civil lawsuit for anything. They don't have to have corroborating evidence or anything. [00:15:00] They can make up a total lie to file a civil lawsuit. All they need is Money, really, that's really the only thing that they need. And so we're never going to be able to completely eliminate the risk for being sued, but there are some things that we have learned on our journeys that can help us navigate and protect ourselves in the event that that actually happens.

So that's going to be the part two of this episode. jumping right in. If you have some things that you have learned in your process about ways to phrase things, how to phrase things, things that you learned while writing your book of, okay, I can't say that, but I can say this, would love to hear just a rundown of some stuff that you have learned in your process of telling your story publicly.

Jenai: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll say sometimes I share parts of my story on Instagram and no [00:16:00] one's really policing what I say on Instagram. But there was much more kind of like being cautious and careful in a publication, like a book. And so just before I wrote. Or finished the manuscript of Othered. I think it was Prince Harry's memoir.

Yeah, his memoir came out. And I, and I was like, I want to read that. And I just read it before even finishing the manuscript. Just because I wanted to see, how does he tell this? And not have the power of the throne come down at him. And if anyone, I began paying attention, I mean the story is wild, but also began paying attention to how he told it, or how the ghost writer was telling it for him.

And I don't know if anyone else has read it, but there's kind of like, sometimes you read like, him saying, did this happen? He's like self doubting. Yes. In, in the book. Did you pick up on that also? Huh.

Katherine: Yeah.

Jenai: Like he was like, I, am I remembering this correctly? Almost as [00:17:00] if like, you can't come after me.

I'm telling you that it's just my memory. It's just

Katherine: memory.

Jenai: So I learned that it is different to write something as 100 percent fact, even though there are things in my book that were 100 percent fact. This is what happened, but because I didn't have evidence or I didn't have like a screenshot or a recording of the meeting to say this is 100 percent fact, I had to say.

And this is such, it's weaker. It makes for weaker writing, but it protects you more. I had to say, I remember this person saying,

Katherine: yeah.

Jenai: Whereas before I had it written in dialogue, like so and so said this to me, and I responded in this way, and they said, we need this corroborated, or we need evidence, or you need to re write it and say, I remember.

this happening. I remember this happening. And I thought, man, like, it kind of sucks a little bit. It sucks the, like the, the wind from your sails. But I remember that being a [00:18:00] pivotal a pivotal point in like, Oh, then there were some things I do. And I, I remember, I don't know if anyone's in the middle of anything.

And I'm in a one party state, meaning as long as one party in the conversation consents to a recording. You can record the conversation. And so long as I was a party, I, I, I was like, I give myself consent to record this conversation, something in my gut before I even left my position, something in my gut said, Start recording these conversations.

And so I did. You're going to have to look up your own local laws to see if you're a one party or a two party state. Sometimes you need consent from everyone in the meeting before you can record. I know California is like that and maybe others. Yeah. And so I remember hitting record. And feeling a little bit bad about that.

I'm like, this is, this is, this seems weird and creepy on my part at the time, but there was something in my gut [00:19:00] that was telling me, record this conversation. And I remember texting a fellow coworker who was also experiencing the same like mess that I was. And I texted her and I said, is it wrong of me to record this conversation?

And she goes, Oh my gosh, yes. And I thought it was wrong. Yes. She, even she like, even in who, And even she couldn't, cause it feels that creepy. Yeah. Like even the people who are in it with you might think, oh, this isn't gracious of you. But I didn't listen to her and I thought I was going to keep recording.

And now, like if I talk to her now. And I told her, Hey, remember when you told me I should stop recording? I didn't, she would probably say, I'm so glad you didn't listen to me. Right. I'm so glad you just kept doing it. And so I, I did have evidence. I did have evidence. I had screenshots. Instagram messages, or not Instagram, my goodness.

IPhone, iMessage.

Katherine: Yeah.

Jenai: Like they have like these settings where it says, you know, delete my messages after a month, delete 'em after a year or whatever. I [00:20:00] turn that feature off, so I have a ton of like, storage on my phone from all my stored messages, but that's really so that I have all the evidence.

And so I took screenshots. Yeah. And I put all of that in a folder to send off. For those that don't know, when you read a, when you write a book, they usually do what's called a permissions read. Meaning if you added stories of other people your editor will go through and read to see who do you need permission from.

And they'll give you like a form to send to that friend who says, I give permission for this story to be in the book. And for me, I thought, well, I don't know how this is going to work. I'm not going to get permission from anyone to tell the story.

Katherine: Yeah,

Jenai: and they emailed me back and they were like, congratulations, you don't need to get permission.

However, we do need to do a corroboration read or a legal read of the book, and this is what our lawyer has flagged as like comments in the document for like, this is where you need [00:21:00] corroboration or change the word or evidence and Yeah, so that's kind of like an overview of the process.

Katherine: And corroboration is another person saying, yes, that.

Yes,

Jenai: yes, that happened. Even, even though you don't have evidence, if someone else can say, yes, this happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I know that that is exactly how that it played out. They are kind of like your witness. It is not evidence. It's your witness.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And that is. For them and for you in the event that you do get sued.

We already have this ready, we have to go, we have someone backing this up, we have someone that has verified that this is true for that again doesn't necessarily prevent the lawsuit from happening, but it is stuff that can just protect you in the event. Some other things that are helpful that you are.

Probably alluding to saying things like allegedly, or it is my opinion [00:22:00] appeared to me that X, Y said this, or it seemed as if, and that feels so weird saying that when it's like your story and it happened to you, but it's also just kind of acknowledging. A human limitation. So just kind of putting it in that category.

And, and memory memory does change over time. It doesn't mean that it wasn't 100 percent true, but it we're just we're just kind of acknowledging human beings have limitations and I am a human being, and it's and it's protection. It's okay to protect yourself. You are not being dishonest, but it is, it does feel so weird, especially when we come out of these environments where we have been silenced and our story and our narrative gets taken by other people and twisted and reframed.

We just want to say it like this happened and this person was so horrible, awful, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there are [00:23:00] spaces to do that. And. Maybe write the first draft with like every expletive you ever wanted to use, get it all out and then go back. and adjust it for public consumption. Maybe wait a few days.

And so yes, those emotions need to be felt. Those emotions need to be gotten out and you also want to protect yourself. So both of those things can happen. And the importance of just the reality that the story is out there and there may be some things that just feel a little weird to say them a certain way, but it has a story out there.

How do you navigate that of like, this wasn't the most ideal way to write this but it was the safest way to write this. How do you navigate that experience?

Jenai: Yeah. I remember In, I think it's in the first chapter of the book, I am certain it's in the first chapter of the book, because I start the book with a story [00:24:00] of my first day of work that started with my executive director yelling Or, you know, whatever your definition of, yeah, I think it was yelling I called it not yelling, but he was raising his voice because, you know, there is no, I can't track the decibel level of what he's saying, and like, I don't want that to be a whole argument, but even that, I kind of cushioned and said, He wasn't yelling, but he was raising his voice to the degree that everyone in the building could hear him.

You know what I mean?

Katherine: Yeah, and so people are going to be like, he was yelling.

Jenai: Yeah, he was yelling. And so it's subversive little things like that. And so. I, I kind of cushioned where I could, but then later in the chapter when I, my first chapter is kind of about giving people terms, because people use spiritual abuse in different ways, or church hurt in different ways, and so I kind of tracked with like, this is how I'm using them for the book.

So I tell that [00:25:00] story, and then I share kind of my definition of these terms, and because I put some cushion in the story later when I talk about that experience, when I name what happened in that experience, I say, this was spiritually abusive. And I just say it. I felt like I had the confidence to say it there, because I had the allegedly in the cushion.

I didn't, I didn't have to write this was a, I alleged that this was spiritual abuse. I could just say it with punch and power later in the chapter. And so there are kind of subversive ways like that, that you as a writer, or even if you tell your story because I know some people might be Not everyone's writing, some people are podcasters, some people are sharing their stories in different ways and so there are there are subversive ways to tell the truth, such that you are clever, and you can protect yourself as well.

There's something, some verse in Matthew that's like, you know, be as wise as a serpent. But be as gentle as a dove [00:26:00] and I think I do that in the book like I had to navigate this I wanted the book to be compassionate, but I also wanted to be clever and I wanted to show like I could still tell my story and so yeah, there's places you can put cushion when you need to.

And then if you're, if you're clever with your writing, the imagery and or the, you know, the imagination of the reader will fill in the gaps. Thanks. Yeah,

Katherine: but then you are still protected.

Jenai: Yeah.

Katherine: Another, another thing that feels weird is when we're writing about someone who's not a public figure changing names, changing physical identifiers, that also feels super weird.

Cause we're like, we just want them to know that it was this person. But the reality is that most people don't know that person. And so thinking of it as a wider. public facing thing rather than the 5, 10, 20, 100, or a thousand people within that space who would know who that is. And that vindication that we [00:27:00] would get from making it obvious who the person is versus protecting ourselves and, and just changing their name, changing physical identifiers.

That's different if it is a public figure. When it's a public figure, you can phrase it. a way to phrase it is, or a way to, to angle it or approach it is to write it as if it is for the public good. Like, Hey, a lot of people are asking me about this person. And so I'm sharing this story so that the public will know that this happened, or it isn't, it is important to me that people know that this, you know, public figure.

You know, Robbie Zacharias is a predator, you know, like, like stuff like that, where you are, you are saying you're doing it for the public good. And in essence, you are. So that is another way where they, again, they can still see you for [00:28:00] defamation and libel, all of the things. But when you're approaching it as I'm doing this for the, like, Oh, I'm just doing this for the public.

And that's what, that's what journalists do. Like they, that's why they write, like, you know, Or that's the ethics that they are supposed to follow of this is important information. This is truth that the public needs to be aware of. And so that's another angle to approach it as and even a way to kind of approach the story as a, as a whole, as you, you did of It's important that people know there's a different way to interpret these verses and making sure that the public knows that there are other ways to say this.

And that's another angle. And

Jenai: that's why I actually don't use names or even fake names at all in my book. And I think that's a reason why I think people approach it. They're like, this is Jani's story. And I was like, this is really the story of my resistance. It's not the [00:29:00] story of like everything that happened.

And so I think that might, like, you know, I think people want to hear like the nitty gritty and I. I would have had to use so much more mental and emotional labor if I was telling stories of how they allegedly kept using my social security number for their church credit card 18 months after I was fired.

You know, like, I, I would have to, like, it would take so long. So much more mental labor for me to talk about, like how financial fraud came about or how, how all these other things happened and changing names. And so that's why I was like, I can't write a memoir. I'm not a memoirist.

Katherine: Mm-Hmm, .

Jenai: But I can tell my story of my resistance and in doing it, framing it that way, I could tell pieces of my story and then not use names.

And so I say things like executive director. Yeah, or a senior pastor or lead pastor. And so the people who [00:30:00] are there who read the book will know exactly who I'm talking about. And another way that I've protected myself, and I don't know if a lot of people know this, is that I actually helped plant the church.

And what I mean, what I say, what I mean when I say that is, In Texas, when you file for a non profit or corporate, a non profit corporation status with our state, you have to have three signing directors to kind of legalize this organization with, you know, the Austin. the state capitol. And I was one of the signers.

So there, it was me and two other guys as signing directors that that stuff is open access. So if you go and Google that stuff, you find my name connected to that church. One way that I've protected myself is I don't write under my full name, Jani Amen. That's my first and my middle name. And When you, I mean, they could still probably find, if someone digs enough, [00:31:00] they can find it.

But I can say I put, like, measures in place to not be connected. I don't name the church, that's another thing. I don't talk about even the neighborhood that it was in in the book. So people can't geographically locate it. So, in many ways, I have hemmed myself in from further harm that they could do, and I've just, I've provided cushion in other ways, not just in the book, but in how I approach telling my story, and a pen name, that's not deceptive to readers, that's like, pen names Yeah, pen names are, yeah, it's like industry standard people I mean, that's happened, pen names have happened for a long time.

And so I didn't, I'm still writing under my genuine names. I'm just writing under my first and my middle name. Which is what a lot of people do. So yeah, that was just another way I protected myself.

Katherine: Yeah. And then another [00:32:00] small detail that could play a role is the names of states lawsuits are, are usually organized by a state and it's called jurisdiction.

 So if it's if it's possible to remove even state identifiers and just use the area of the country or change the state or whatever, then that just that ties things up. Legally within the context of of a lawsuit and can make it like if it's outside of the, the person who did the wrong, allegedly did the wrong outside of their state and they have to sue across state lines or, or something like that.

And, and there's no, indication that it actually happened within the state, within the writing then that can just make it a little bit trickier to file a lawsuit and to, to get it [00:33:00] through. And so it just makes it a little bit more challenging. So those are just some other things to consider as you're, as you're writing.

I know when I write about my family, I always say the South. I never say the state. I always say the South. I've started doing very recently. And even if people ask me like in person where I grew up, I just say the South and they'll be like, where? And I was like, I just say the South. Just cause I don't want that connection to a specific state for those jurisdiction reasons.

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Katherine: All right. Anything more we want to say about that before we jump into the experience of. working with lawyers and what what might happen on the other side of a lawsuit.

Jenai: No, I, I think that kind of tidies up the I will say I have a very unique name.

Not every, if you're like a Rachel Smith, You know, you probably have, if someone Googles you they're gonna find so many other Rachel Smiths. And so with the pen name thing, I don't want anyone to freak out or feel like they have to change their name, especially if your name means a lot to you. So please, I just want to be like really sensitive to that.

As a Jani Amon, I, you know, or just a Jani in general, they're going to find me. I'm going to be on page one of the Google there, there are more of us than I realize, but the, there aren't as many who are public on the internet. And so, yeah, I would say that's the only thing I can say a Houston church and everyone's like

Katherine: Yeah. We'll find you. People find you. And I mean, that is something that you can do. It's not, you know, [00:35:00] It's a it's an option for for protection using using the the pen name.

And I think, as you said, if it's. very intentional that we're not trying to like go after this person and take them down. It, it helps. Those are just little things that can help. As we jump into talking about the bum, bum, bum, bum, what if you do get sued? Let's talk about some ways that We can protect ourselves in the event that that happens.

It is not uncommon and just want to let folks know from where I sit in the work that I do, I am seeing, if you're talking about the spiritual abuse space and going public about abuse that pastors have done or denominations or whatever, I am watching pastors and denominations and organizations become more litigious.

They are, they are fighting back. By filing civil suits. [00:36:00] Now it is my opinion. We need to also be fighting back and filing civil suits. But when you've been abused, a lot of times you don't want to do that. And that is it's over for you. You are moving on and health and you do not want to interact with that person anymore.

But the, the increase of lawsuits and civil suits from. Pastors suing folks who have accused them of abuse that is growing and I project is probably going to continue to grow as they fight back and they lose power. So it is not. a unlikely event if you start going public and start talking about specific people especially and specific denominations especially.

Very sad, just going to acknowledge that right here that that even needs to be a reality but as you absolutely quoted at the beginning Be Wise is Wise as serpents and gentle as doves and this is just a way to be [00:37:00] real wise when we start going public with our stories. Now, one thing to just be aware of, of I don't know that a lot of people know this but you can get Insurance for yourself for things like liable defamation, slander.

And if you, I recommend talking to a local broker in your city and just say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. I have a podcast or I put a lot of stuff on my website or I'm writing a book and I need coverage. What are your recommendations? The brokerage will do, broker will do the research for you and likely present you with some options of things that you can purchase for your own protection.

When you do that, when you have insurance and if these, you know, alleged abusers know that you have insurance, it does increase the likelihood that you're going to get sued. And the reason why is because if you get [00:38:00] sued and you have no money there, you file bankruptcy and they get nothing. If you, if they see you and have insurance, then they are increasing the likelihood that they are going to get money because insurances can just decide.

This is, it's more expensive to defend this case than to settle this case and they can make that decision that they're going to settle instead of defend. That's just a nuance of how the system works. It does not mean that you are admitting fault. You never have to admit fault. But if an insurance company is covering you, then they might make that choice on your behalf.

They can do that. And lawyers know that and so if you have insurance, it does increase. slightly increase your chance of getting sued. However, the alternative is basically you don't have insurance and then you then not only are going through the horrendous [00:39:00] emotional stress of a lawsuit, you're also having to pay for it.

So that is just something to consider. As you are going public with your story and something very simple that you can do to protect yourself. You can add it on to your renter's insurance. You can add it on to your mortgage. I think it's a, if it's something that you do regularly, like for you and I, or for myself forming an LLC, forming a nonprofit so that you have the insurance to cover that specific entity and you do all of the work under that entity.

So then you are not on the hook should something happen because it's under that entity. Those are just real weird nuances and something that most people are never going to have to know or be aware of. But for this particular thing of going public about our story of abuse is something for folks to be aware of.

Would you like to share about what someone might expect [00:40:00] when, if they have to interact with lawyers?

Jenai: Yes. And that was hard. That was hard. I don't remember if we said this during the recording, but lawyers are not. Dental? Yes. They're not trauma informed.

They don't really, their concern is, Like winning and not necessarily, I mean, that's kind of like what I feel like with pastors, pastors are so many pastors, not all pastors are concerned about like upping the numbers. And sometimes the spiritual abuse happens because they look at the metrics and not at the people.

And in many ways, I kind of felt some of that with like,

Katherine: Hey,

Jenai: just want to make sure that they win, not necessarily that this person is cared for. That's someone else's job. I will say I do not have a lawyer. I had, I worked with the lawyer, the legal representation with my publisher, so when I, when they did that permissions read, that was [00:41:00] not a permissions read, and they transferred it over to a legal read the editor read through, but then the editor also had the lawyer read through.

And the lawyer went through and commented on the document certain things. Sometimes I don't know if I was supposed to see these comments or if they were supposed to scrub them. And I, I, because in reading some of their comments, they're trying to think about how can this writer say this? So that really so that everyone is protected, but sometimes they write it as if the writer did something wrong here and it just lands on you kind of hard.

And getting the email that said, you know, we need, we need you to provide corroboration. It felt a lot like, They don't believe me.

Katherine: Yeah. You have to prove that this was true.

Jenai: Yes.

Katherine: Yeah. And

Jenai: that I knew it was coming from other people I had spoken with and other writers and authors that I know of. I knew that this was coming, so it didn't [00:42:00] hit me too hard.

Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . I

Jenai: can imagine that it might if other, other people aren't experiencing that, and I think. Oh, I'm so grateful for my agent. So if someone, if you can work with an agent some people say find whatever agent that you can find. But really my encouragement is if you can land with an agent, not just somebody who will have you, but someone who will have your back.

Katherine: Yeah, that

Jenai: is pretty pivotal. And she was sensitive enough. She also, that was another thing, all my emails between me and my publisher go to my agent as well. My agent is a part of an agency who has a lawyer at the head. And so he kind of, he's not my agent, but he's connected. And so I, I feel very kept at that particular, like, and held.

Katherine: Yeah at

Jenai: that agency, but my agent was sensitive enough that she got the email and before I responded to the email Or before I even texted her she texted me I want to say five [00:43:00] minutes after the email hit my inbox and she said I want you to know This doesn't mean that they don't believe you. They're all everyone's just concerned about making sure The book is protected that you're protected.

This doesn't mean that they don't believe you and I You I knew that it was just really nice to have someone else tell me that. And I know that depending on, I think self publishing is a totally valid journey especially after going through publishing. So not everyone has an agent, but even if you can get someone in your corner, who's a part of walking through the process with you, even if it's not an agent who can read this stuff with you and tell you the things that Even you yourself know, I know that this means that they don't believe me.

Hearing it from another person really does help just take care of like your body, your nervous system. And so that, but it was a very hard thing to read. And then the comments from the lawyer herself were also really. really hard. I think [00:44:00] sometimes some people think it's the men and I'm like, no, not

Katherine: really.

No, no, no, no, no. It is not. It is not. And they, they, again, as you said, they want to win. And so they are thinking about this from a perspective of like, if we get into a lawsuit, how will we win? What are the things that we need in order to win? And so much of the civil lawsuit there are absolutely situations.

I know someone who is suing someone for financial fraud right now and it is a genuine situation in which they should be suing that person, but this can also just be this very capitalistic way for power holders to just be bullies. There aren't a lot of like regulations about like, is this a legitimate reason to sue someone.

And so. It's a game. A lot of it's a game. And the, the lawyers, a certain type of person ends up being a lawyer, and they are, they're, they're, they're about strategy and the game, and how do I win this game, and they are [00:45:00] not, thinking you are an abuse survivor who has been extremely traumatized and they're not thinking how is this going to land for you.

They also tend to have very little other than just like very high level understanding of like rape is sexual abuse. They don't have a lot of understanding about the nuances of abuse and what exactly is abuse. And so. That when you've already gone through an experience of having to justify and defend yourself and, and convince yourself that this is real and this really happened and, and what you are experiencing and how you are navigating your trauma is real to then have this real life experience of people just like not believing you, even though that's not necessarily the case, but it feels like they don't believe you.

It can be very re traumatizing, and so we're just, we're just sharing this to just like, just be aware. Make, make a wise choice of, of this with [00:46:00] awareness. And as Janai said, surround yourself with people, give yourself some good people who are going to be there to support you. Also, something to keep in mind, a civil suit is not a criminal suit.

You are not a criminal. You do not commit a crime. It might feel like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. Again, people can sue for any reason whatsoever. They do not have to have any, any corroboration. All they have to do is be a bully and have a lot of money.

Jenai: Yeah. I write in other actually, like if people, if people you are calling out someone for misuse of power, they will continue to misuse their power and abuse their power to silence you.

And so they're going to be like, oops, my bad. They will keep doing it. They will keep coming after you. And I think really the only way to stop it from happening is you have to find your power back. And, and that can be through a number of things, [00:47:00] whether, like, people can corroborate your story, you've gathered evidence I will say for anyone gathering evidence or in the middle of that process, don't necessarily do everything under, like, if you get something to your work email and that work email is connected to the abusive situation, start forwarding everything to your personal email because they will close that email account eventually and you will lose evidence, that was in my case, I've also, there was a pastor in my story.

It's not in the book at all, but who has been trying to meet with me or he has been meeting with me for coffee, trying to reconcile, and I feel safe enough to have these conversations with him and not feel talked down to, or not feel, you know, gaslit. I won't let that happen. But because he has extended an olive branch and has kind of admitted to some of the wrongdoing he's done in the corroboration process, I needed to corroborate that I was given, you know two severance options, and I didn't have that screenshot.

It was in, [00:48:00] like, a slide. I have a Slack channel that I'm no longer a part of. It was in my old work email that I never forwarded to my personal email. And so I had to get corroboration for that. And I asked this pastor, I will say lawyer or the lawyer for the publisher, they said, if your husband can corroborate, he is allowed to corroborate for your story.

Right. So that was super helpful. And I, but instead of in title, my husband did corroborate for some of the things, but for this severance option, I thought I'm going to ask the pastor, my friend to do this, my former friend to do this because he can use the one that gave me the severance options. And it was really like a, let me see the test of your character, whether you'll do this, and he didn't, he said,

Katherine: oh, goodness, he

Jenai: said, there's just so much more nuance.

And I'm not saying whether or not there is nuance to the situation. And by the way, I reject his nuance. It was total crap. I was just saying, the [00:49:00] corroboration is. Did you or did you not give me two severance options? And he wanted to say, you know, he wanted to say, but this happened, like, and I was like, yeah.

And I said, can you do this? Can you confirm this? And he said, no, I won't corroborate for you. And I was like, you dirty liar. I was like, fine. I, I, I wasn't upset. I was just like, okay.

Katherine: You showed, you showed your colors.

Jenai: Yeah, you are actually Like confirming that you are still in alignment with the character of the person that I knew before.

And like my lack of trust with you is validated. Like I can no longer trust. I can't, like my, my gut is telling me the right things. I gave you an opportunity to mend some of that trust and you did not. So I still have it in the book that I was given two severance options because my husband was like, yes, you were given two severance options.

And I remember that. And if it ever [00:50:00] goes to court and everyone gets deposed, that's what they're going to say, you know, like you, yeah,

Katherine: you have to. Yeah. And exactly. I can cut this from the episode, but was one of the options, Like you have to sign an NDA and you get this?

Jenai: No. Okay. There was no NDA.

We can keep this in. I was given two severance options. Here's the thing, and this is how pivotal, I was the primary on the bank account. Like my, I could have done anything with the finding. I didn't. But that I, I had the passwords to everything. I was the primary check signer. I had a lot of things that I was responsible for.

I had no power over because they, you know, kind of cuffed me in terms of like what did and didn't happen. And I was trying to follow the rules. But because I had the access and the responsibility to maintain everything, they couldn't just get rid of me super quick because they needed that access. And [00:51:00] so my severance options were two weeks notice and two months severance.

Or I work for two months and I get another three months severance and I, this was 2020. This is when people are losing their jobs. And I thought I need, I actually asked, I said, can I have more severance? Like, this is, you are my brothers. Yes. You are, you are like, tying my hands behind my back.

You have given me no voice and no choice, even though I have consistently told you that this man's harmful. Can I have more severance? They ignored that request. I actually met with somebody who, and I told him, I said, remember you were ignored this request. And he was like, did we? And I said, yes, I remember asking for six months of severance.

Because they do whatever they can't have to in their mind to protect their male fragility that they've done something wrong my husband was there, but the severance thing was [00:52:00] really really hard The kicker is is they did eventually get rid of the senior pastor They gave him like nine ten months worth of severance His salary.

I, his salary was six figures. My salary was in the fifties. Mm-Hmm. . And so I, I felt like I wasn't asking a lot. A lot. I wasn't asking for a lot.

Katherine: Right, exactly.

Jenai: They gave him my salary and then some through his severance, like later, and I thought. Man, like, I, whatever, this is obviously, like, here is another instance where you have made a value statement that one person was more valuable than another, and even in sending them away, you wanted to send him away with so much care, and you just freaking threw me off.

Yeah. It threw me overboard. So,

Katherine: yeah. Oh my gosh. I have heard so many stories [00:53:00] like that of just like, they'll be so stingy with the person who blew the whistle. And then when they, you know, get forced to like, get rid of the pastor because it's just, too much collateral to keep him on because so many people are leaving or for whatever reason and and then they just send him off with like a year of severance and like you know continue to pay his insurance and like all this kind of stuff and you're just like guys yeah it is not an equitable system in any way shape or form

Jenai: i would say i probably if i had to venture a guess i will never find a civil suit filed against me because I in gathering evidence and in kind of trusting my gut.

They didn't know that I was recording things after they let me go and terminated me. They began a quote unquote internal investigation. And if anyone knows, it's not really that much of an investigation where they investigate themselves, [00:54:00] you know, like, come on, man. But. In these internal investigation talks, I recorded everything, and I was kind of triangulating the information with some members.

And I was asking them, what are they telling you? Because this is what I was told. And what are they telling you? And thankfully, some of those what they were telling the members, some of that's recorded in member meetings. And so I was like, okay.

One way. I think we mentioned before pastors still feel like they are just leaders in general feel like they have power.

That's why they keep coming after you. And then 1 way to prevent that is to get your own power back. Once I revealed to them that I had been recording things. and catching them in their lies.

Katherine: Yes.

Jenai: They realized, Oh, we can't just tell her one thing and tell the members another thing. Cause I remember, I remember them telling me, you know, pastors on [00:55:00] probation, pastors, this, I recorded that meeting without their, their knowledge, because it's one party consent.

And then I heard from the member meeting that Pastor went on stage and he said, they've given me time off. Like he wasn't, he wasn't forthright with I'm on probation. They also gave him the power to tell the story himself.

Katherine: Yeah.

Jenai: Which I thought, don't you know? And they were like, we gave him like an opportunity to own.

And I was like, no, you didn't. You gave him an opportunity to save face and

Katherine: I

Jenai: sent them an email. And I said, this is what you've done. This is what I was told. Here is the screen recording. I don't know if this is the case anymore, but there's an app called Loom, where I, I think they might have disabled this feature.

This was early days, 2020, when people were figuring out screen recording and all that stuff. But Loom will record, did record my screen. And because I didn't do it through Zoom, it didn't let the person know that I was [00:56:00] recording the call.

Katherine: And so,

Jenai: I sent them that video that said, This is what you said. Here it is in the transcript.

And they stopped. Like, they just, they realized, Oh my gosh, we have to be more careful with her.

Katherine: Mm hmm. And then at

Jenai: that point, they, I noticed significantly that they were mincing words with me. Because,

Katherine: they knew.

Jenai: Well, and because I got my power back, they just couldn't just tell me anything anymore.

I was weighing and measuring it against everything else they were telling other people.

Katherine: Yeah, yeah. And if you are still happen to be in your situation, your abusive situation, document, document, document, document, document. If you can't record it, you can, you can leave a meeting and you can write your own notes.

You can save the emails, as you know, I was saying, save the screenshots. Have your have all of your things that feel so weird to do that. Like you're just like a double agent. But just think of it that [00:57:00] way. Like, like you are a double agent in a hostile regime, just like, like that person. And yeah. and protect yourself and give yourself what you need to survive that.

Speaking of survival in the event that you do get sued it is a very traumatizing situation to, like, have to be interacting with this stuff again and to not have agency over when you interact with that stuff. And, and it can be very re traumatizing. Litigation abuse is a real thing, such as. A, you know, woman tries to leave her violently abusive husband, even has a restraining order out.

And for that husband to just want, he just wants to keep controlling her and maintain contact with her. We'll just sue her for nothing just to, to maintain the contact. So litigation abuse is a real thing. And that might help to just kind of look at it. That way of like, I'm [00:58:00] being abused in real time and care for yourself.

If that were true, surround yourself with people, take a lot of naps be in therapy, if you can and give yourself a lot of tenderness and care in that situation. And you don't have to be this strong, bad ass all the time. Like if it's hard for you and it is a struggle, that's okay. It's okay if that is a struggle for you and you and it impacts you.

That's why they're doing it. Like they're trying to impact you and for it to actually impact you and actually be like real time abuse that you're experiencing and for that to have an effect on you, that's okay. And give yourself resources in that situation so that you are actually being supported.

when that is happening. One final thought and then I'll let you share final thoughts [00:59:00] too. If you decide that you want to file a civil suit against against a perpetrator or an abuser and you got a lot of evidence and a lot of corroboration and you think you got a good case, there are lawyers that work on contingency who will look at your case and say, I'm going to defend this case for free and I get paid if you get paid.

So that is an option to do your research and not legal advice, but I really hope more people will do that. Do that, do that thing and just let them know, Hey, you're going to sue us. We're going to sue you. Monique, any final thoughts or any other things that you want to add to something that we left out or holes to fill?

Yeah,

Jenai: yeah. I will say if you live in a two party state and you have to get consent before recording, that can still work in your favor too. So after my former leaders found out I was recording, they eventually asked me to partake in a reconciliatory meeting. And I, I know I was like, I [01:00:00] will, I will come to that.

And I told them I will come to that on two conditions. I, I had already sat on one side of the table with all six of them before. And I said, I need advocates there for me. Beyond my husband, I, I, I want people there who are for there for us. And the second request was that I record the meeting.

If you, I thought, well, it's going, they're going to be much more careful with their words when they record the meeting, but still in that meeting, there were still some tells.

Katherine: Yeah. For

Jenai: instance, one thing I wrote about in other, I think maybe it's chapter three about apologies. And how I'm sorry, you feel that way is different than I, I'm sorry, I did this to you.

Katherine: Yeah.

Jenai: And in this rec, like this meeting that they, that they, they said, yes, they let me record it. They still said, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I'm sorry. You feel like you, I would, I had dismissed you and I'm sorry. And like, they still [01:01:00] kind of tell on themselves. So if you live in a two party state and you feel like you can't do these clever one party things.

You can still gather good information, even if you ask. And they will still, they show their colors, even if they don't think that they're showing their colors. Like, I really think sometimes, sometimes some people know what they're doing and I think sometimes the self deception is so deep, they just don't know how bonkers it is.

Or they're

Katherine: super arrogant and they, they really genuinely feel like they can do whatever they want.

Jenai: Yeah, yeah. And so there are ways in which you can gather information, even if, like, you don't have a similar one party state situation, like I do. I will also say that when it comes time to providing corroboration, you know, Asking for corroboration, I mentioned, was really hard, but also going back through the evidence, some of my evidence was audio or video recording, and [01:02:00] I had to go back and listen to

Jenai: Or watch the video and provide a timestamp.

I had to send them the audio or video link and give them a timestamp, and I, that was very difficult. Very hard on me. I did it because I needed to, but if that sounds like something you don't want to do try to find you'll, you'll, if you want to write it the way that you have it and not say, I remember this, you want to actually use that.

Just be gentle with yourself. That is a really hard thing. I think I needed to not look at the book for a while after providing evidence because that was listening to those voices and seeing those faces again. It was really hard. And so I just wanted, I didn't want to not say that because people think, Oh, I have all this evidence going back and looking at the evidence can be really, really hard on you.

Yeah.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so important to just have our, our agency and interact with the [01:03:00] material in our own way in our own time. And when you have something like a book deadline, You don't always have that that capacity to just, yeah. You know, do it on your own time and just when you, when you feel good enough for it.

And and a and a civil suit similar is there's deadlines, there's timelines, and you can't just like, oh, I just wanna block out this day and then the next day I'm gonna go get a massage. Like, you don't always have that agency. And just that, just that lack of control within that. Contacts can also feel retraumatizing.

And so since we probably discouraged everybody listening to from going public with their stories, what let's remind folks again, like why it's sometimes important to go public with our stories.

Jenai: I think it was important to me personally to keep my integrity. I did everything I could do to stop someone else from getting hurt.

I, I stood up, I did exactly what my [01:04:00] faith had encouraged me to do. I did exactly the thing I, I believe. And I write this in the book sharing your story and telling your story and owning your story is a way to be like what I think the prophets of the old Testament did. The prophets, they didn't tell fortunes.

They were calling people in power to account. I now realize the weight of that, like, oh my gosh, like that is, I did exactly, I spoke up and I don't, I know that not everyone will speak up, not everyone, you know, I had power, I had gathered all this evidence, I had the power to speak up because I had kind of things that bolstered me, not everyone has that, and I, I don't want anyone to feel shame If they feel like they can't tell their story because they don't have that same kind of support or evidence but keep telling your story to yourself so that you're validating yourself.

If, if no one else will affirm you, there is still so much power in [01:05:00] affirming your own truth, your own story. No one can take that away from you, but they will do their damnedest to take it away from you. I will also say that it is. mentally grueling. It is I just want people to take care of themselves.

Above all, just, just to, if you do and do this work and you know you're going to tell your story give yourself a lot of space and say no to other things that Yeah. Other expectations, other, you know, there are other friends who I'm promoting this book and it's a very vulnerable book. There are other friends who are also writers who also want me to write endorsements or who also in this particular time want me to do something for them and support them.

And as much as I love them, I have had to say no to a lot of them as I promote this book or do this work because I'm trying to do it well and with capacity. And because the story is so vulnerable, it takes a lot out of me. So say like, just be [01:06:00] understanding that you have to say no to a lot of people that you love and like, that's okay.

Yeah, the people who love you who hear no from you will still like acknowledge that this is okay.

Katherine: Absolutely.

Jenai: If they take offense to that, then maybe they aren't as big a support as you thought they were and just redraw the boundaries of that relationship, but make a lot of space for you and doing this work.

Katherine: Absolutely. And the reality that it's really important to tell our story, to tell our version of the story, to reclaim our narrative, to reclaim our power post an abusive situation, but there are many ways to do that. And telling a story publicly does not have to be the only or only way. Or even an option like we it's important to tell those stories 100 percent highly encouraged finding safe places where you can tell your story.

You don't have to go public with it. [01:07:00] Absolutely. And, and. There are things you can do if you decide that that's important to you to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and protecting yourself. Listen to this episode for that. As we wrap up, how can people find you, find your book, interact with you, and yeah, what are the easiest places for people to get in touch with you?

Jenai: I am everywhere on the internet at Janiyah Amin. And I'm usually hanging out on Instagram, not really on Twitter or X or whatever it is anymore. It's getting more vitriolic over there. I also, what prompted this conversation was not only that I'm promoting a book, but I also wrote about this experience on Substack.

And if you want, Catherine, I can send you the link and you can include that in any show notes on the website, but also what I've considered doing and what I might do for the release of this episode is. Maybe Othered is not the book for you. Maybe you, but if you want to pick up Othered and you [01:08:00] want to see some of these instances where I discussed kind of changing language or things I needed corroboration for, you can pick up the book and I will write a new substack post that kind of delineates, like, this is the area, this page this is the story I was telling, this is what it originally looked like, and this is how I had to change it from For the lawyers.

I can do that as well and I can just make that available to y'all. So just so that you can do whatever you can do to protect yourself. But I'm around, I'm a human being. I have email if anyone ever wants to email me I'm not famous. I'm not looking to be famous. I'm looking to be a resource. So if I can be a resource or just a compassionate witness to you and your story, just send me an email.

DMs are really bad. Just because DMs are like. You know, random guys slide in there and they say weird things. And so I try not to,

Katherine: yeah,

Jenai: but email is a much more safe space and that's where I'm much more engaged. So feel free to go to my website and send me an email. And I'm usually pretty prompt with those.

So. [01:09:00]

Katherine: Yeah. Awesome. I, yeah, I would love it if you have the capacity to write that that additional sub stocks. Just, I love super practical, pragmatic examples of like, this is how I originally wrote it. And then this is how I changed it. That would be, that would be so cool. If you don't have the capacity to do it, I totally understand.

But here's hoping by the time this episode comes out, we'll have that. That would be awesome. And we can always do it later or put it on the website or something like that. That would be awesome. Thank you so much. I'm real excited about this. This is a massive conversation in the trauma recovery, spiritual abuse recovery space.

So I'm so excited to like finally have this conversation. So thank you so much for coming and recording with us.

Jenai: Yeah. Thank you for having me on.

Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

 I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. [01:10:00] And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

Mattie Jo Cowsert was a pastor’s kid and proud purity ring wearer before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate. When marriage equality passed in 2015, Mattie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she’d been taught about this Jesus guy in her first publicly released blog post entitled: God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog, God, Sex, and Rich People. Before terms like “deconstruction”, “purity culture” or “Exvangelical'' became hashtags viewed by billions, God, Sex, and Rich People exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female Exvangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the 1%, and trying to have good sex without hating herself in the city that never sleeps (and never stops sleeping around).

Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024.   

Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners

Sign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings

[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain.

Uncertain is the affiliate podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse from the evangelical community.

 So I don't think I've had the chance to officially announce, But in April of this year, I partnered with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery to work as a practitioner for them. Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery is a online agency that works with survivors of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, purity culture, folks who are deconstructing, All of the things, and it's 100 percent online, so you can meet with a practitioner online.

So many folks are addressing the religious trauma that came from evangelicalism, from working in the church, and they're looking for good mental health professionals that understand this. I know that with most of the clients that I work with, they [00:01:00] have already worked with therapists before in the past.

But one of the main things that they struggled with in their therapy relationship was that the therapist didn't understand the nuances and the complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism.

So if you are looking for a mental health practitioner to help you navigate the complex and confusing and very painful journey of recovering from religious trauma and the trauma from spiritual abuse, I encourage you to check them out. I'm a practitioner there. I see clients one on one. I currently have a client.

Few openings for new clients and there are also several other practitioners that have openings for clients as well. So that is an option available to you. Another thing that I haven't announced yet on the podcast is that In April, also in April of this year, I signed a book contract. I am working with Lake Drive Books as my publisher for this book.

[00:02:00] And what do you know? The book is about spiritual abuse. It will contain a A lot of my journey, but my journey also entails working with clients, working with survivors through Tears of Eden,

there are some genuine quotes that are taken straight from some of the podcast episodes here. So you'll be in familiar territory.

One of the gaps in the current literature around spiritual abuse that my book is going to hopefully fill is addressing the reality that The theology and evangelicalism and in the modern day church actually has a massive impact on the rampant abuse that we are now seeing in the church.

I haven't seen a lot of that connection made in the current literature that's out there. Our previous guest from last week, Krista Brown, she made that connection really well. Like this theology actually leads to the abuse. So Other than that, I just really haven't seen that much happening. So that's one [00:03:00] of the things that's going to be showing up in this book as well.

 That's just a little bit of a sneak peek. We'll probably do some sort of launch event through Tears of Eden when it comes out in 2025. The exact date is still to be decided, but subscribe to Tears of Eden's newsletter so that you can get updates on that book when it's coming out and all of the deets around that. The guest today is Maddie Jo Kausert. Maddie Jo was a pastor's kid and proud purity ring wearer, before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion, thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate.

When marriage equality passed in 2015, Maddie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she'd been taught about this Jesus guy in her first public release blog post entitled, God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog.

God, sex, and rich people. Before terms like deconstruction, purity culture, or [00:04:00] evangelical became hashtags viewed by billions, God, sex, and rich people exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female evangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the one percent, And trying to have good sex without hating herself in a city that never sleeps and never stops sleeping around.

Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024.

Maddie is hilarious and super fun, so I'm very much looking forward to reading her book when it releases. Here is my interview with Maddie Jo Kausert.

Katherine: Well, welcome, Glenda, to have you here. I love the title of your book. Why don't you tell us the title of your book?

Mattie: I

Katherine: will.

Mattie: Yes. God's Sex and Rich People, a Recovering Evangelical Testimony.

Katherine: Fantastic. And you are coming from New York, where you work as an actor?

Mattie: Mm hmm.

Katherine: Actor.

Mattie: And now [00:05:00] author. Now author. Actor, writer, shameless overshare is what I say. Or sometimes I say actor, writer, babysitter for billionaires. It kind of depends on my crowd.

Katherine: Are you still a babysitter for billionaires?

Mattie: I am. I am a babysitter. You know, something of the, of the unexpected twists and turns my life has taken.

I did not foresee my being like solely raised to be a mom and a wife to be so lucrative. Incredibly lucrative in New York City. There are lots of, of, and I'm not saying this is true of my family, of the family I work for, but there are lots of families in New York that actually don't want to parent their kids.

So I'm great.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. I'm

Mattie: good at it.

Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. I had a life where I nannied. I enjoyed it. I like, Mm-Hmm, . I really enjoyed it. And there are times where I consider going back to it because .

Mattie: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Let me know. I know someone looking for a nanny in [00:06:00] St. Louis.

We can get, we can follow up after.

Katherine: All right. Let's do it. But yeah. And I had six younger siblings. Mm-Hmm. . And so like, it was like. Super like, I was like, this doesn't work like this.

Mattie: Exactly. This is just like my life.

Katherine: This is life for me. Yeah. And now I get paid for it.

I like this. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, all right. I'm like trying to like in my head, then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay. So maybe let's start with your, just like your journey, cause you, you're from Branson, Missouri, and you somehow ended up in New York acting and working with rich people. So tell me How you got from point A to point B.

And then if you want to touch on some of the things like the journey, the deconstruction stuff that you you are writing about on your blog and on in your book I would love to hear all of those things and then we can just kind of see where it goes. We're going to have, [00:07:00] we're going to have a great

Mattie: time.

Great. Yeah. And like I kill, I am a loquacious individual. So if you ever need to stop me and say like, you know, just. Interrupt me whenever. So I was born a preacher's kid which if you were a preacher's kid in the 90s, I mean, there are, there are, You know, different varieties of what that could mean. But my variety was of the, the general Baptist convention, which is not, it is an actual like denomination.

It's different from first or second Baptist or Southern Baptist, but like it's, it's generally Baptist, right? I think the only thing that's different, it doesn't matter. There's some theology things, right? And they made their own church from the other Baptists. And. My, I say that, I say this in the book, my roots in evangelicalism are as deep as my roots in America.

My great grandfather was a Baptist pastor. My grandfather on that side was a Baptist pastor. On my dad's [00:08:00] side, my grandfather was a Baptist pastor and then my dad became a Baptist pastor. So it's just, it's, this shit's literally in my blood.

We were Baptist in terms of, like, the traditionally Baptist, but then we, by junior high, we kind of crossed over into the non denominational world, which was very exciting for people coming from a denomination where there was no dancing

Katherine: and

Mattie: lustful hip moving. And now we got, like, You know, a full band and cool, like, spinny lights and a sick sound system.

It was

Katherine: hip Christianity.

Mattie: Yes, absolutely. So then I, I and like, I will mention this, the church that my dad was the pastor at before we switched over to the non denom world is was Stuart, our Alan Clark's church. I don't know if you remember him. He's the one that kind of went viral. For saying that, like, basically having a Trump rally at a church for saying, like, if on a Mother's Day service, like, if you [00:09:00] women are, like, too fat, and your husband's not gonna be attracted to you, and he cheats on you, like, all the things we sort of subtly heard in church growing

Katherine: up.

I've heard, I've heard these, I've heard this before, I wouldn't have connected the name, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Mattie: Super, super great. And he, like, did my He did my grandpa's funeral, like, yeah, so but my, he was not there, obviously, when my dad was the pastor there, but I lived at the parsonage of that church, right?

So then for a while, my dad got, like, a normal person job while he was seeking out, you know, different pastoral opportunities, and we, in the meantime, we started going to this non denominational church, and that was really, like, my home church, and then my dad got on staff at that church as the community pastor.

So even though he wasn't like at the pulpit, he was still like a big part of it. And that was like my, my high school experience was, being at church so much, I was there like so much and it was my whole social life. And to be honest, I think something I don't really highlight enough is I really loved that experience.

Like I loved that I was not [00:10:00] drinking and I wasn't having sex in high school. I got to really enjoy being a kid. And I think a lot of high school. trying not to be the age they are. And I really, I really feel like I got that in high school. And then also like I wasn't really dating and because of like purity rings and everything.

So I didn't have the same amount of boy drama that I feel like a lot of girls are distracted from. And then because at church we learned a lot about like, Cultivating deep, meaningful relationships with people. I feel like I had a really strong friend group. So lots of great things came of my, my time at church, right?

And then, but along with it, you know, was a lot of really bad shit. And I went to college and I I did go to school for theater. So sort of as a natural outcome of that, I started questioning some of what I was, I had learned in church around gay people going to hell and everything. There's a chapter in my book, it's all caps.

Everyone is going to hell. Because like, I had gay [00:11:00] friends and I was like, oh no, all my friends are gonna burn. And And so that was sort of the beginning of me really questioning some of this stuff, but I was still very much in it like I was in a a missions focused group in mission and fellowship focused group throughout college and I had a boyfriend who I totally thought I was going to marry.

We did not have sex. We were saving ourselves. That was a bit of a, like, Capulet Montague tale because he was Catholic and my family was Baptist and, you know, the Catholics aren't real Christians. So that was some fun drama, but in, in dating him, I learned a lot about Catholicism and a lot about the roots of Christianity.

Whatever. And I really feel like I, I developed a love for liturgy that I didn't get in my non denominational background. So in some ways, I feel like it deepened my spirituality being with him, and because I thought we were going to get married there, There's some stuff I could go back to, but I'll [00:12:00] say this and then go back, I guess.

Because I thought we were going to get married, I was okay with like saving myself. Cause I was like, Oh, but we'll still get married by like 22. And then I can have sex. And then we ended up breaking up my, my later in my junior year of college. And I was like, Well I guess that option.

Yeah. And also alongside it, all of I, this is part of like the, the rich people part of my story. When I was 14, I decided I was going to go to summer camp. We didn't really have you didn't really have summer camp that wasn't church camp where I was and you didn't, I didn't really have any access to theater training in Branson.

I know shocking because of all of the live music, but live entertainment, but it was not the kind of theater I was trying to do. Please. I was Broadway bound, you know? And so my parents were like, well, why don't we, I was going through a pretty rough bout of anorexia and I think it was kind of my parents, like effort of like getting my sparkle back.

[00:13:00] You know, they knew I loved theater and whatever. So then I just like Googled this is all in the book. So you can like read it more in depth there. I Googled and I found the top performing arts camp in the country. And I decided, okay, I'll go there. And then I looked at the price tag and I was like, holy shit, people pay this much for camp.

And so then I raised the money. I was like, I was like, all right, I'm going to do this. And I like raised the money to go to camp and I ended up doing it. And then upon arriving at camp, I was like, oh. This is why this camp is so expensive. It's just for rich kids. And like, I was this little me from rural Missouri and I had like done a car wash in the Walmart parking lot to be there, you know?

And so that was a really interesting culture shock and experience. And then, but it was actually I feel like my, Without having words for it, which is actually a really beautiful thing about like being young. Feel like I really had my first real [00:14:00] connection with the divine at being like in a play at camp.

Yeah.

Katherine: And, you know, I love that so much. I love that so much. I wonder so much more about that, but yes, continue. Yes.

Mattie: So then again, sort of without words, like I never, I was never like, Okay, like I never made like a conscious choice that I was gonna be an actor. I just knew I was gonna be an actor. Yeah. I was like, well, this is what I'm designed to do.

I clearly feel the most at home and joyful when I'm doing it. I was really good at it. I was a better actor when I was 14 probably than like college because I was just pure, you know? And and yeah, I was like, And that's when I, yeah, I felt the most connected to God was on, was being in that play. And so then from there on out, I was like, okay, I'm going to go to college for theater and I'm going to, then I'm going to move to New York city.

And I did, I, I did those things. But when I was in college, I felt, and I would like visit New [00:15:00] York every year. during spring break and I would feel this pool of like my sense of adventure and my like wanting to perform and having this love for culture and diversity and really being at not, I don't want to say at war, but in conflict with what I was supposed to do as a woman of God, which was like get married. have kids, all of that, right? And I just, I would always wonder, like, how am I going to make these two worlds happen? You know, like

Katherine: identity on who you are and what you love. And you're so aware that it doesn't fit. In this system that told you you were supposed to be this thing and how just, oh, yeah, just like the, the confusion that probably resulted from that.

And tell me more about that unpack. Yeah,

Mattie: so I felt it was just this [00:16:00] conflict of. Of knowing, you know, like part of the brilliant work of the evangelical church and I would argue like, you know, religious systems in general is the their ability to detach individuals from themselves. So I call it like.

Self severance and the work of deconstruction is actually integration is like actually getting to know and not vilify your feelings your thoughts your opinions because what are we told like if it's not of the lord it's it's of the flesh right like everything is just a dichotomy of like good and evil and so yeah i again i didn't have words for it but i was like why do i feel more connected to myself And more joyful in New York City with all of these like theater weirdos than at church singing songs, you know, and, or like not even at church singing songs, cause I did like to sing.

So I did like that, but I, but more, you know, following the rules, [00:17:00] doing the purity culture thing, showing up in a particular way, not going out and drinking and all of this stuff. And I was like, I just, that just isn't me. Like I'm. I'm like pretty horny and boy crazy and I don't know why that has to make me like less of a Christian But that was that was the competing narrative.

Those were the competing narratives, right? It's like to give up my virginity to give up getting married therefore getting married young, right? To give up these things that were so upheld in the evangelical church would mean that I was not living in alignment with God, and I was not living in alignment with my higher calling.

And another thing that the evangelical church does so masterfully is they really they really, like, pedestalize Yes. And so

Katherine: the

Mattie: heart or

Katherine: something. Sacrifice. this identity would have been more holy.

Mattie: Exactly. Exactly. So luckily [00:18:00] after I went on a mission trip to Indonesia with my missions group where basically the whole time they were just telling us like, look, if you're not willing to like pick up your cross and follow me to Indonesia to be a full time missionary, you don't love Jesus enough.

If you are not willing to be a modern day martyr for the Lord. You're not a Christian. Like you just, like your faith isn't actually the most important thing to you. And then making you feel such shame for that. And I came back from that trip and I was like, okay. All right. So first things first, I guess I'll break up with my boyfriend.

Cause now I have to move to Indonesia and I don't, I know he doesn't want to do that. And then I'm going to, I guess, finish out my musical theater degree, but I'll, I'll move to. another country in the 1040 window instead of moving to New York City. And I talked to my dad about it and he was like, that is such a pile of crap.

Luckily, I say this in the book, I have a, [00:19:00] a father who is like, you know, more like Oprah than he is like, you know Baptist pastor and he was just like to go against what you were designed to do would be going against god What? Yeah, and he was like you Mm hmm. I know i'm really grateful for my parents, which is another thing we can talk about is they're like very like, level headed intellectuals.

Well, my dad for sure. My mom is like, very like common sense. So she, for her, it just doesn't compute. She's like, how could you follow Donald Trump and follow Jesus? Those two things are not the same at all. So there, I'm lucky in that regard, for sure. But anyway, so, so Yeah, that was just the the conflict, but I guess because I was not I was only surrounded by people who thought differently than the than the herd, I guess you would say for like one week out of the year It was like one week out of the year.

I would go to new york city and I would get a different dose of like this whole vast world [00:20:00] that wasn't my own. But then you, I would go back to Missouri and all those questions that would be festering and everything, they would just get stifled because all I'd have is everybody else in my ear saying something different.

And it wasn't until my boyfriend and I like fully broke up and I realized, okay, I am now for sure, for sure. Moving to New York city.

Katherine: What was the boyfriend? The Catholic one.

Mattie: Yeah, yeah I am for sure for sure moving to New York City And the logistics of that with, like, marriage, I don't know, man.

And then, that was really, I would say, like, that was the catalyst for the rest of my undoing. Because now, I really knew I was going to New York. And so, you know, it's like, they say, I had people say to me, well, like, you know, don't let those liberals convert you. So, help. And then I like went, I'm like, well, they did it.

They did their, their [00:21:00] wizardry, I guess. But yeah, then once I got to New York and I just say like, just by living there and I can go a little bit more into that if you want me to, but just by living there, I was just sort of constantly accosted by all the ways that. My, the faith that I had been presented that had these like rules really only worked in a very specific culture outside of that culture.

They do not work. So I, so then I'm thinking like, but this is the God who created like, Like, you know, like, the, the freaking, like, geysers, and, and like fuzzy caterpillars, and then like, the whole galaxy, and he can't find it in his galacting making heart to love gay people?

Like, it just was, I, and the more I was with, you know, These people who were different. I was like, it's just not computing. But you know, honestly, when I moved to New York, I did not yes, the questions were happening and they were definitely like I guess percolating is the right word for it. [00:22:00] But I, I definitely had no intention of like losing my identity as a Christian.

I thought, you know, I thought, you know what, I'll work through this like purity culture thing, I'll figure that out first, and the gay people thing and whatever. But then, once I started dissecting scripture, and I started to do a really big deep dive in like history. textual critic, textual criticism, any sort of like breaking down of, of the Bible outside of like the case for Christ, you know, anything that didn't have like a very strict Christian agenda, things that were just scholastic.

Like I was literally reading textbooks from like courses at Columbia, you know I was like,

don't even think I'm a Christian because if, if I have to believe that Jesus. is the messiah to and that he came here to die for our sins and the resurrection and all of that if i have to believe all of that to be a [00:23:00] christian

Katherine: yeah

Mattie: i don't think i do

Katherine: yeah

Mattie: and it was just sort of like to to have continued to buy into it experiencing everything that I was experiencing, learning everything I was learning would have been the ultimate, like, self negligence.

Yeah. And I had come too far in my journey of authenticity to do that. Yeah. And like, to be honest, I feel like that was kind of my, like, That was my moment where I was like, I will never turn on myself. Because if I can give up this. Yeah. Which is like everything about me. So now everything's going to unravel now.

After this. And it did. And it was not pretty. Then I think I'm gonna always. Be able to know myself and come back to myself. I didn't know that consciously at the time obviously but Which again is like then you're fighting like the youth pastor [00:24:00] jiminy cricket in your head That's like but you're not good.

You can't trust yourself. You are sinful, you know, like you can't All of those things. So everything, I just say like deconstructing is just like a total mindfuck. I at least had the privilege of being geographically removed from it, but most people who are deconstructing, like you expressed earlier, it's like they're still very much in it.

So I imagine that has to be a lot harder. Like I was in a place where, I use this joke, like if you, if I told people in my circles that I had just gone to a worship service, they'd be like, Oh. An orgy? Like, what does that mean? You know, the language just isn't the same.

Katherine: Exactly, and you realize that once you get out of it.

It's like, oh, that is like such this insider cellular conversation. And when you start to use those words, and you're like, oh, this sounds so weird. Yes. Sounds weird because it is weird. Yeah. Yeah, because

Mattie: it is weird exactly and like the more people that you meet that don't grow up in it. I'm like, that's a really [00:25:00] good like if you really want to like quickly divvy up like what is total bullshit and what is like Okay of what we learned in church, just tell all of the pillars of your youth group lessons to someone who didn't grow up in it and you will figure it out very quickly.

Watch their face. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you have any questions about that. But yeah, that's how I got from there to here.

Katherine: This is a dynamic that I was I would love to discuss with you. So I escaped a cult, like shiny, happy people cult when I was in my mid twenties, and I immediately moved to a different country.

And then after that, I went to seminary and then I lived in, I lived in DC and I lived in LA. And I lived in St. Louis for grad school and it, and I can see very starkly the role that [00:26:00] getting out and getting in geographically getting into a different space and being around different people. It just accelerated everything and, so tell me about the role that that played in your life of just like being in the big city and like getting out

Mattie: Yeah, I do talk about that a lot, about like, geographical privilege. Because I was not going to lose my entire community if I said I don't think gay people are going to hell. Some people, especially if they're married and they have kids, and like, If they admit that, some of them it's like tied to their income, like I've talked to people who are in the praise band and they are a paid position because it's a mega church, right?

Like, well, I shouldn't assume, obviously, like, apparently Hillsong wasn't really paying its musicians. But anyway but this is like, You know, that's a big thing. And so absolutely. [00:27:00] And so I do realize that I had that I was building a new community. However, While I wasn't afraid of like losing my community, I was really afraid of judgment from people back home But really it's because I was judging myself like if I can go back and really look at the fears I had during like what I call my my rubble years, which is like I had knocked down a whole bunch of shit But I had no idea how to rebuild it yet.

So I was just kind of like Existing in the atomic wasteland of my previous belief system I think a lot of it was anything I was putting on other people was just stuff that I was fearful of, but reinforced by people saying certain things to me, you know,, like, for example, I went back for a birth or a birthday party.

a wedding of my best friend. And the next morning I was like, hey, I have to tell you something. And she goes, Oh my God, did you make that? Did you make out with my brother? And I was like, [00:28:00] no, you know, it was stuff like that. Or like, I went back for, I was like,

Katherine: yeah,

Mattie: exactly.

It's terrible. Although to her credit, I was going to tell her that me and one of our dearest best friends shared mail. I think that detail is probably important just for this context. That we had shared a really sweet goodnight kiss.

Like that's what I was gonna tell her so it did have to do with a boy But no, I didn't make out with your brother. And then another time I remember After I had started the blog Going home for like a bridal shower, and we were all We were all going out for, like, drinks, whatever, afterwards and some of the guys, like, drunkenly, like, kind of cornered me, and they were all like, so you think you can tell my, you know, future wife it's okay to do other positions than missionary?

Stuff like that. Yeah. Right? It [00:29:00] was this, it was this kind of, or like, I remember one time I went home and for a 10 year reunion and one of my classmates who I'd like been in kindergarten with, he grabbed my butt during a group photo. And I turned around and I looked at him and I was like, what was that?

And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't me to me. And he was like, we know what you write on the internet, Maddie Jo. Oh my god. So it was things like that, that like, you know, these assumptions that just because I was openly talking about sex, that that meant I was sexualized. Yes. Right? Right. And things like that.

I was really, that happened pretty frequently. I think that's a

Katherine: genuine fear for a lot of women. Who are having these journeys, and I will include myself in that, of like, but I'm not going to talk about it publicly because of, it'll put me in danger to some extent of [00:30:00] like, you become this target, like, you're not allowed to just be sexually free without being a ho.

Like, you're not allowed to have sex without being a ho. Like, it's like one or the other. Same double standard rules that have always existed. They just take different forms. Right.

Mattie: Is, you're absolutely right. The danger component of it is very true. And then You know, and it happened in New York too, but I started to use it as kind of a sifter.

Like if I told guys about my blog and their immediate thought was like, oh, she's DTF. I was like, yeah, you're not it. Like you have, you have shrunken me to a 2D vagina, you know, like, And

Katherine: that is a, a perk of that authenticity

Mattie: is,

Katherine: and I mean, and that's one of the reasons why people won't do it, cause it's like, well guys won't like me.

That is actually true. It

Mattie: is actually true. You can, but you can totally see like okay, they're either going to be more interested because they think you're just [00:31:00] ready to have sex with anything. Or they're not going to be interested because they think you're ready to have sex with anything, right? Like air quotes.

Or the third option is they're like, oh, that's really cool. Can you tell me more about your Tell me more about it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the only okay response. So what you're doing is you're sifting through what I call the misogynist daywalkers, right? Like these are the ones you don't want. And that lets you know it very quickly.

So yeah, to the geographical thing, like I did experience some of that, but the, the removal of it and, oh, here's another thing. I was really afraid my parents weren't going to love me anymore. Like, I know that sounds insane. It doesn't sound insane. Cause I think a lot of people feel that way, but like, I was afraid if I told my parents, like, I, I don't, cause I had, I had realized that so much of like their.

Not affirmation, but like approval of me or what I thought anyway, was around my behavior of being the purity princess of [00:32:00] following the rules of being a, a, a Christ like, you know, young woman. And like, what if I wasn't a zealot for any of that anymore? And I was, I was suddenly very zealous for. The opposite of that.

I was really afraid my parents were going to disown me. They didn't because luckily they were going through something similar because some iffy stuff was going on at our church that you know, they were like, dude, why are church people like this? You know? So I was calling out a lot of the hypocrisy publicly, but they were experiencing it personally.

And so that was again, very lucky, but yeah, being removed from it gave me, I always say like, The greatest gift that New York City gave me was anonymity. Because no one here gave a fuck who I was fucking, when I was fucking, or if I said the word fucking, right? No one was like tone policing me. And I got to just, you know, they say you find out who you really are [00:33:00] when no one's watching.

Yeah, absolutely. And what a gift. Yeah, you know to just be Just being able to make decisions without The wrath of the spiritual side eye you're going to get the second you go in for a coffee

Katherine: Yeah,

Mattie: you know like that was great so I really do and just the ability to be around people from all different walks of life I mean my first apartment in new york city.

This is part of the rich people part. I'm miraculously ended up in a very You specific living situation where I lived in like the penthouse apartment of this fancy building you know, leaning lady, like Upper West Side. And it was four of us and one of the guys who lived there, his family used to own the entire building.

So that's how he had this apartment. And that I could live there for so inexpensively. But anyways, he was born and raised in New York City, went to like the best boy's school in the country. Jewish, right? And then the other girl that was living with us was born and raised [00:34:00] between New York and India.

I'm actually not sure where in India, I should have probably asked. And her family had like tea, a tea business in India, so they were very wealthy, right? And so that's why she was going back and forth between New York and India. And she went to like Harvard Law and Oxford for undergrad. She was Brilliant.

And then the other girl was from Sweden and she was an economist and she was an atheist and like very feminist and you know, and I was like, we had more diversity in my apartment than all of Missouri, you know, so getting to hear their perspectives on things, specifically my roommate who owned the apartment was hysterical because he would call me out on things and, you know, like when I would be having these like equally yoked panic attacks, you know, he'd like kind of call me out on like, It's kind of weird.

You're so concerned about, like, whether or not he's Mormon. Like, did he tell you he was Mormon? You know, like [00:35:00] so it was, yeah. And, and so that really, where if, if your whole world is just every other weekend, somebody else is getting engaged and you're going to their, like, dry wedding, like, yeah, obviously it's not a very expansive place to explore.

Katherine: Yeah. Absolutely. You may already know this, but

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Katherine: And I think for folks, because a lot of folks, especially like the demographic that I work with, not [00:36:00] a lot, but a percentage of folks when they, a lot of them were on staff in churches and experienced abuse and had to leave these churches and had to leave their livelihoods. And on often, it leads to a geographic.

Change.

Mattie: Yeah.

Katherine: It can be so terrifying and so anxiety inducing. And so I think it's really helpful to hear this very expansive positive side of that, which was also what I experienced too. It's very traumatic to move.

Mattie: It's

Katherine: very traumatic to be transplanted into a world that is not familiar. That is 100 percent true.

But the possibilities for what we can encounter. In these new spaces not a reason for difficult things that we go through. I never, I never want to justify the difficult things or prescribe, Oh, the Lord knew what he was doing. Right, right. But I think it can be just [00:37:00] this beautiful world that it can open for us if we kind of just roll with it.

I'm just like, what happens?

Mattie: Definitely. Definitely. I mean, like, I'm pretty sure Linda K. Klein even talks about that in her book, Pure, about how, like, even once she was at Sarah Lawrence, I think she, like, took a trip to Australia or something, and that was when it, like, really solidified for her, like, just being away.

She was like, yeah, this is just, yeah.

Katherine: Yeah, I highly recommend if that is accessible to people, and it's not for everyone, but to The country, get out of your space. Even in a healing season of just like getting out of your space can be so helpful to just not be surrounded by all of these things that are reminding you and, and as you experienced, like just having these things suppressed, like questions that you were having constantly suppressed and you weren't, you weren't in a space where you could ask those questions [00:38:00] and how just like getting out of the space, allowed opportunities.

So that's just a suggestion for the audience. Yeah.

Mattie: Well, and because I will say this, like, because in evangelical circles, there's such a culture of like accountability. I say with air quotes is like, I know from like watching my older sister kind of go through her own process of deconstruction and my book is actually dedicated to her.

I mean like everybody and everybody's business. You know, like you cannot do a damn thing and then and on top of that, like if you are trying to make the decision, you know, like this actually feels really toxic. I'm not going to go to small group anymore. The way they come at you with like every and if you are not yet in a place where you know everything they're saying is bullshit because you have not yet experienced it.

experience to the other side of deconstruction, where you really are like more free and you're happier and all of that, then like them coming at you with like, this is just you not wanting to feel convicted. [00:39:00] And this is you like stepping out of accountability in the Lord. This is, you know, like all of those, like, you're going to be like, Oh yeah, you're probably right.

Like, you know, it's like, it's impossible. And that's why you have to separate yourself because it's honestly just like really it's manipulation and, and you need new friends and it's like really hard to make new friends when you're in the same place too. I think that's tough too.

Katherine: Yeah. And that for forced vulnerability, which is very invasive and very bashing.

And I think that that's another beautiful thing on the other side as well of like, we were, we were so responsible for like, you felt like responsible for your gay friends going to hell and, you know, like, and now it's like, Oh, I don't have to be responsible. I don't have to worry about what your belief system is and whether or not you're going to hell.

I don't, I don't have to do that. Right. Which is great.

Mattie: Right.

Katherine: We have a wonderful time together [00:40:00] and I go home and sleep well.

Mattie: And you don't have to treat your friends like a social, like like tally mark, right? Like, oh, did I share the bridge analogy with them? If I didn't. I probably don't love them, you know?

Like, no, actually, not treating them like an experiment is probably more indicative of your love for them. I remember feeling that in my missions group, too. It's like, Jesus Christ, they'd come at me, I talk about this in my book so people can read more about it there, but they'd come at me with like, How many people did you share the gospel with this week?

And I'm like, how many orgasms did you have this week? Probably that many, like, leave me alone. God damn.

Katherine: And I would just be so mean.

Mattie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I will say something I went through in my deconstruction to your point of like, these people are not, Like my problem again, one of the like mind fucks is that sorry, I should have asked if I can cuss.

I clearly

Katherine: can. I need to put that as a note in [00:41:00] the, in, in the calendar thing, because people ask me if it's okay. And I'm totally okay with it, but I was like, I should just

Mattie: sorry. Cause I definitely have a potty mouth. But one thing that I really struggled with is, you know, the whole narrative around your behavior.

Is or isn't leading people to Christ. So like when I was going through again, what I call like my rubble years, and I was like, always afraid that like, I couldn't just sin and peace, right? Like internally, every time I like had sex with a guy, I was like, Oh no, if anyone who used to know me as a Christian finds out I'm having sex outside of marriage, Then, what if they think it's okay for them to have sex outside of marriage and then they stop being a Christian and then I'm responsible for them going to hell.

I don't really care what they do, I just want to do me. And I just like, couldn't. You know, like, just living my life all the time, I was like, afraid there was like, someone from my past lurking around the corner, like, [00:42:00] ready to not be a Christian too, just like me, even though I didn't know I wasn't a Christian for like, a long time, I didn't admit that to myself.

But, yeah, I just remember feeling like, crap, so not only am I afraid I'm going to hell, I'm afraid anyone who is witnessing my behavior is also going to hell because of me.

Katherine: That's a lot of pressure. It is! A lot of pressure, and it is unnecessary pressure. Yes. It's so much better. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.

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Katherine: In the time that we have left, I would love [00:43:00] to discuss so you said that you had this divine experience in a play.

What role has art played in that? In your journey?

Mattie: Oh, I love that question. Oh my gosh. It's played the, it's played such a big role. I, you know, little like, theater role double entendre. Yeah. I, when I first came to New York, I was,

I was going to school. Well, okay. Sorry. Backtrack. . I feel like the biggest role that it has played in my life and particularly my spiritual life is that when you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, your life will always be great.

Yeah. Like that doesn't mean that you're not going to have hard times. Like I was taken, I was in a movie right now that has 100 percent on Rotten Tomatoes and is number two in the country. My three scenes. Cut. [00:44:00] I am not in the movie. Like, it's not, it's a, like, it's not that it's not, you know, devastating at times and everything, but you know, I didn't know what I was doing when it came to pursuing theater professionally.

I didn't know anything like there's a whole thing you're supposed to do if you're going to school for theater and do all the auditions and whatever. I didn't know any of that. All I knew is that I really liked to act. I was okay at singing. And if someone took some time, I could probably figure out dance.

And so I just auditioned for two schools. I got into one for their BFA programs. So I just went to the one that I got into. And then even once I left that program, like I just kept, I started to do musical theater professionally or pursue it professionally in New York city. And even after four years, again, getting connected to myself and my, My feelings and everything.

I just came to this point where I was like, this is [00:45:00] so hard. And because I'm Midwestern, I don't know if it's hard because it's supposed to be, like, everything takes hard work, or if it's hard because this just isn't the right path for me. And I would think about camp and I would try to think about the times where I really felt connected and I was like I'm not connected when I sing or when I dance.

I am so in my head about hitting the notes and hitting the choreography. I can't even think about acting, which is the part I actually enjoy. Yeah. So I decided, you know what? I'm not going to pursue musical theater anymore for like a hot second and just try to act. For a year, I'm going to plant myself in New York City and I'm just going to pursue acting jobs and like see how it goes.

And the pressure, like I was, I was, so much more successful at auditioning. I was booking like crazy. [00:46:00] I was having, I had far more success in that one year of pursuing, but of pursuing acting work than I had been in four years of musical theater. And yeah, I've just continued. So now I just do like on camera acting and like plays when they come up, but.

And then same with writing. Like, I've always been a writer. I just never wrote publicly. And so when I started releasing my blogs in 2015, it wasn't because I thought I was a writer. I just did something that I found really, like, it was so enjoyable. And not always, right? Because I, I think Glennon Doyle has this, this quote that's like, I don't like writing.

I like having written. You know, it's like the putting it together is like, Oh, sometimes it's really hard, but I really enjoyed the process of like, piecing together a story in a way that was engaging. And like, I just really, really loved it. And so I've always [00:47:00] followed those, that those impulses, like these sort of, I remember I had this moment, you know, it's dating this guy and he was like rich, whatever he was in finance.

And he sort of had this like, promise of, a less hard life for me. Cause he would take care of the bills and da da da da da da. And so I was like, man, it would be nice to not be juggling like acting and 50 different babysitting jobs and just to live in like a shitty apartment. So I was talking to a mentor of mine and Oh, and there was also this promise of like going back to Germany.

Not promise, but potential going back to Germany. Cause that's where he was from, whatever. So I was talking to this mentor of mine of like, okay, should I just like, you know, get a normal job and sort of like go on this track of like building a life with him and you know, going that way and she was like, well, why, why do you act Maddie Joe?

Like, why do you want to act? And I just like looked at her and I said two things and I didn't even think about it. And I just said, [00:48:00] because I love it and I have to, and like following that impulse, like not even thinking of it, but being like, no, that's just my truth. Like, it sounds so cliche, but like, that's just my truth, you know?

And then I had my mom and I was talking to her. She was like, you've worked so hard to create this whole life for yourself. And you're just going to move to Germany for this guy. Like, you know, so I did have some like you know, strong women in my ears. So that was good. But yeah, I think it's been the way.

That I feel most connected to truth and my knowing and like, it's the thing that has kept me pursuing again to go back to the beginning, pursuing a life of authenticity over dogma or what is right quote unquote, right? What is logical even and that that's not to say that I'm not logical I am like I have a full time job that I also do with all of this other stuff But I just always have to go back to those things because I really believe those things being like acting and writing and the [00:49:00] belief that like I was designed with a certain skill set and with a passion to do it, so I need to do it, because I really believe that why, and this isn't to like diminish or belittle mental health, but I think the reason why we have a lot of mental health in our country is because we don't have a society or an economic system that allows people to explore the things they were actually meant to do.

We, we have a society that celebrates a very specific You know, kind of financial success. And then like for me, I have a job.

Katherine: Great. But not everyone does.

Mattie: Not everyone is. We don't, we don't celebrate that. It takes all kinds. Right. And we decide what is worth what kind of money. So like, even though the guy trading, on wall street is doing nothing to better the world, literally nothing.

Right? Like, he's just making rich people richer. Connecting a global economy, maybe. Like, maybe. It's [00:50:00] a stretch. But that motherfucker makes millions of dollars. The person stacking your shelves at Trader Joe's because it's a less whatever, like, skilled job? Not worth it. Unless we're in a pandemic and then they're considered an essential worker.

Right? Like, It's just, I don't know so it's hard for people to pursue the things that they love in the capacity that I do, and we have lots of other systems in place that make it harder for other people from other incomes, , but but I do think that, like, if you don't do the thing you were looking for.

Designed to do you will just keep finding ways to feel better, whether it's antidepressants or an addiction or, you know, whatever it is, avoidance until you just do that thing

Katherine: exactly. And then you lay on the teaching and the Christianity. And the, how you're not supposed to have your own desires and they're supposed to be God's desires and we're [00:51:00] conditioned to fear our desires or to doubt them or mistrust them.

It takes incredible amount of courage to say, I'm worth it and like my desires matter and these things that I want to do really matter and they're worth, they're worth taking that risk to pursue. And especially for women, I

Mattie: think, especially for

Katherine: women of, of where ours is always supposed to be subjugated to like a family, like having a family or a spouse or something like that.

And and having to create that path is very, very challenging. What do you think, just as we're wrapping up, what are some things that you would share with folks who are Kind of on that same journey, either the deconstruction journey or just like pursuing, pursuing dreams [00:52:00] in the, in the aftermath of all of this toxic teaching that we got.

Mattie: Yeah. Oh man. Well, one thing I wanted to say about like the, the desires thing, right? Two things is like, women aren't even allowed to desire An attractive person like we're not even allowed to say like, oh, I actually don't find this guy Very hot and so I don't want to be in a relationship with him because I am not attracted to him because we are always supposed to we are expected to always put like emotional connection above all right as if Me wanting to be attracted to my partner means that I don't also prioritize emotional connection, right?

Like, these are the kinds of very nuanced ways that I had to pick apart narratives that I would come up against in a pursuit of following my desires. And then there's also, like, the worst thing to be as a woman, but also as an evangelical woman, for [00:53:00] sure, is selfish. It's because selfishness is a sin and we make selfish in those circles synonymous with like what do I say?

Like a, a, a heartless bag of dicks. Like you're just so mean and you don't care about anybody else and you don't care how your actions affect anyone else. It's like, So it takes so much courage. Like I talked to women who have left marriages and whatever. And it's like, Oh my gosh, I huge kudos to them because that takes so much courage to just be like, this is not for me.

And I actually didn't even choose this. I was just kind of like conditioned into it. And and to be selfish, it's not to be a heartless bag of dicks with zero empathy. To be selfish means that you prioritize yourself and if, if you're in a relationship, like if you can't even be good with yourself, you will not be good in your relationship, but we really vilified self focus, especially in evangelical circles, right?

[00:54:00] What I would say to. You know, anyone in this deconstruction journey and like the pursuit of desire or dreams or whatever. I would say Trust trust the process It's not linear. And if you're going through it right now, there are So many resources when I was going through it. We didn't have words like purity culture or deconstruction or any of that So it felt very lonely, but now there are entire communities on my You On my website, I have a purity culture resource guide that in and of itself is going to be a really good start.

And once you start clicking on some of these things on Instagram, the algorithm is going to know what you're looking for, and it's going to give you more of what you're looking for. So you can get communities, you can get books, you can get podcasts and then, yeah, just like, Get really good at sort of the personal development side of it, which is like self aware about what are your thoughts, identifying your thoughts, where are they coming from?

[00:55:00] Because another masterful manipulation tool, the evangelical church knew about is neuro pathways. Your brain doesn't know the difference between a truth and a lie. It only knows what you tell it is the truth and what you tell it is a lie. So you actually have this amazing power as an individual to reconstruct what you believe is true and what you believe is a lie.

And it takes work, right? It takes like, I call it like Jedi mind tricks, right? Like watch your thoughts. You got to grab your thoughts and then you got to decide, see where it's coming from, examine it, and then replace it with a new thought. And then before you know it, you really will have like a whole different brain chemistry happening.

And you won't be so afraid of like going to hell if you don't do a morning Devo. But I think, I think don't underestimate the power of like the sort of like personal development of it all because you really are trying to change your brain and your truth.

Oh, here's the other thing. You actually have a say in your [00:56:00] life. You are not actually at the whims of whether God is blessing you or punishing you. And that's where That's where that brain reconstruction happens because I, I cannot tell you how much better my life got when I learned that.

And I, and I realized, oh my gosh, I really have been existing in this space. And I talk a lot about this in the book of like, everything I do is just a system of like punishment and reward. And now I have this, broader perspective and I actually have a say in my life and you actually have a say in your life.

So and then yeah, if you keep putting off pursuing what you know, know you're called to do and it doesn't have to be big, right? Not everybody has to like, you know, have like go through a divorce and like become a van person. It can be as small as like, I really think I'm a writer. I'm going to take 15 minutes to write every day.

It can be that, that. So yeah, I don't know if that was helpful or super blah, blah, blah,

Katherine: but [00:57:00] absolutely no. And I think it's just helpful for folks to hear, especially because I feel like there's a lot of material about like the process of deconstruction and what's, you know, how to do it

and I love opportunities to kind of talk about like. on the other side of it. Yes. After some of the mess has died down and some of the consternation has has settled a little bit. Right.

Mattie: And beware of like the deconstruction movement being a little bit like, oh, we're just being zealous in a totally other way.

Like it is becoming borderline dogmatic and some of it, you

Katherine: know, it is. Yeah.

Mattie: So there's no, there is no right way to do deconstruction. There is no, like you The hardest part of life is that there's, we have very little control and that most everything falls outside of a [00:58:00] category. And so the human design is to want to package everything pretty, pretty well.

simply, but that's just not what being human is. And so your role is to, your job is to just develop tools like through the self help and through therapies and different modalities of how to navigate that, but how you navigate it is not a standard, you know?

Katherine: Yep. Absolutely. And, and us by telling folks where they can find your, all of your things and follow you and prep to find your book.

Mattie: So I do have a blog, so in the meantime, while you're waiting for the book to come out, which is September 10th, 2024 mark your calendars. I have an arsenal of amazing writing if I do say so of myself on my blog. So it's maddiejoecowsert. com. I'm sure it'll be in the show notes. Forward slash or backslash.

I can't remember God, sex and rich people, the word. And or if you just Google Maddie Joe Cowsert. You'll find God, sex and rich [00:59:00] people. It's pretty high on my SEO. And then Instagram is at Maddie Joe Cowsert. So my name and subscribe to the blog because I'm making announcements there. But also it's just like, there's a lot there that I talk about dating.

I talk about sex. I talk about faith. I talk about feminism. You know, so, and like what that even is and how it gets such a bad name or bad rap. And And I talk about sexual trauma therapy. I talk about my experience with sexual violence. And so there's a lot on there that you're not just going to get from this, like one hour podcast.

And so I just encourage you to just go crazy and peruse. And most of them are like an eight minute read at most. And then my book is coming out, like I said, September 10th and we're not doing pre orders. So how we're doing it is just mark your calendars and buy the book on the day of. and leave a review you know, hopefully within like 20 days of it being out and an honest review.

I won't ask you for a five star review, but an honest review because what that does is [01:00:00] as soon as a book goes live, the amount of like sales it has is really what matters. The pre sale thing is just if you're doing like your publisher wants to know how interested people are in your book. So I'm just like, whatever.

Everybody just go buy it on the day. Mark your calendar, go buy it on the day. That is the biggest ask I could have from you. And then if you are interested in being part of my launch team, you can DM me and ask me about that, and I can send you, like, what that would entail. You would get an advanced manuscript, and then you would get, like, visuals of things to put on your social media, to kind of, like, shout it out.

And, yeah, and then on my website, I have been on like a ton of other podcasts as well, so if you want to check out those, all the links are there yeah, but Instagram is really the most. I do have a Facebook page for God, Sex, and Rich People, but Instagram is, is the best. And we're going to be doing a launch, an in person launch as well.

I'm going to try to stream it virtually because I also shot a pilot, a God, Sex, and Rich People pilot back in 2021, and I'm going to finally be airing that publicly. So, yeah, lots [01:01:00] happening. Thanks

Katherine: Yeah, all right, everybody. I will put all the links in the show notes and keep an eye out for that book and all of the other things.

Thanks so much.

Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

 I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

Described as "the public face" of Baptist clergy sex abuse survivors, Christa Brown was one of the first to go public with substantiated child sex abuse allegations against a Baptist minister and documentation that others knew. Since then, for nearly two decades, she has worked to shine a light on the systemic problem of abuse and cover-ups in Baptistland.

Christa has been touted in the London Times as "a whistleblower of historic proportions." Her work was spotlighted on ABC's 20/20, and she has been quoted and featured in numerous news outlets, including New York Times, Washington Post, Associated Press, Houston Chronicle, VICE, Religion News Service, Tennessean, National Public Radio, Baptist News Global, Christianity Today, and Huffington Post.

After a 25-year career as an appellate attorney, Christa became a yoga teacher. As a runner, she once placed first in her age-category in a 10-K. "It was a rainy, blustery day, and I gained the edge by simply showing up," she says.

Though a native Texan, Christa currently lives with her husband in Colorado where she loves to hike in the Rocky Mountains. She is a proud mom and grandma. Connect with Christa on Twitter @ChristaBrown777.

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings

[00:00:00] the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support.

 You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Today I am with Krista Brown discussing her new memoir, Baptist Land, where she discusses her experiences addressing clergy sexual abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention it's a very powerful book. And it is a very needed book for this day and age when it seems like every day we have another story in the news about another clergy person abusing a congregant, a [00:01:00] child. It's rampant. So, super important book.

Really hope that you get a chance to read it. During the interview, we had some internet connection issues. I did my best to remove some of the bumps and clicks and gaps. Hopefully it will not impact your listening experience today. Here is my interview with Krista Brown.

Katherine: How are you doing today, Krista? How has it been since the launch of the book?

Christa: Well, it's been very busy since the launch of the book, but I'm very, very gratified and grateful for for the positive response that there's been.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. What are some consistent things that you've been receiving from folks?

Christa: Well, I think among survivors church to survivors, There's a lot in it that really resonates with people and, and I'm glad for that because I [00:02:00] think it helps people See some of the patterns of their own lives and realize that they aren't alone. But of course, it's not just for survivors I mean it also I think has been resonating with a lot of people who simply grew up in these very high control kinds of Religious environments And they see their own, they see those patterns too, even if they aren't the patterns of direct sexual abuse, they're also the patterns, just how much they were under the thumb of this religious control.

Katherine: I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about the book is that you're not just saying here is the abuse and the abuse is bad and this is why abuse is bad. You're also exposing the theological foundation that is where the the soil for where that abuse grows. Exactly. And I don't I feel like that is missing in a lot of literature about abuse in the church.

There's like this [00:03:00] like qualifying statement of just like, but don't worry, the church is still good. It's just these bad people doing these bad things. And I really appreciate how you expose. Oh, it's a lot more than just a handful of folks being abusive and doing bad things. really appreciate that.

Christa: Yes. And all of that soil, as you call it is very, very powerful and the, the control and the authority and the domination that derives from it is very insidious.

Katherine: Yeah,

Christa: and I think can be enormously harmful.

Katherine: Yes, absolutely. And so complex as you, you showed of just all the different dynamics and for you specifically, you had abuse happening in your home.

At the same time as it was happening in the church. And so it was just kind of all, all of these layers [00:04:00] of social dynamics and family dynamics and power dynamics all wrapped up and, you know, faith in God and all

Christa: normalized. Yes, not only normalized but legitimized by the faith.

Katherine: And anytime.

Anytime. you expressed any like said no or I'm uncomfortable or I don't like this or fight for yourself then it was like immediate gaslighting and immediate like You are the problem. And of course, it's perpetuated of anyone who like, just like raises their hand and just says like, I'm a, I'm a little, you know, and then for incentive for people to even fight.

No, it's happening, but like, to even fight to try and change it. It's you just get squashed so fast.

Christa: That is exactly right. And that's. Why it's so very [00:05:00] hard for people, I think, to step outside of these environments because You know, it's like you're put in this little box and you try to occasionally peek outside that box and you get poked in the eye, you know, and you reach a hand outside the box and it gets slapped down and that box is pretty tight.

It

Katherine: really is. It really is. What are some things that are common for you and for you have seen as common for survivors that are things that are just associated with this type of abuse, the sexual abuse, the spiritual abuse that's happening in these communities that make it difficult for them to interact with faith communities?

Christa: Well, I mean, the, the faith community itself and all of the accoutrements of faith are often kind of neurologically networked in with sexual abuse. And that's not a cognitive thing that people [00:06:00] hold in their heads. It's, it's a physiological response. It's not as if we can reason our way out of it and say, Oh, well, fine.

I'm going back to my faith group. Because there were these good things over there because it's all kind of intermixed together neurologically in the same way that that language is intermixed with everything we hold and think. And I think it's very hard for people at the same time. And a lot of ways if we were, you know, if we've been raised in these faith groups.

from toddler hood. It's almost like we have a chip implanted in our brain because it's very, very hard to get past that that control because we have been indoctrinated and raised To give religious leaders the benefit of the doubt, to be trusting of them to give grace to be good and all that goes along with, with goodness and being good.

Oh, it would just not be so [00:07:00] good, right?

Katherine: But then for the good people, like it works on the good people. And. majority of folks are and so as you just kind of get like sucked into this vortex of just like constant inundation I call it like alien body snatching. We've just been inhabited by a foreign substance that is controlling us.

Oh my gosh. So real. Yeah. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.

You'll also get access to this episode without any interruptions from yours truly. Become a monthly supporter today by going to tiersofedian. org slash support.

Katherine: How did you become [00:08:00] Sort of like a spokesperson advocate for SBC bullshit that is happening in this organization.

Christa: Well, you know, this was never something that I foresaw or planned on. But, you know, in my own life when my daughter reached the same age, Approximately the same age I had been at the time of the abuse.

It just shifted everything it was as though I suddenly saw everything through new eyes and very different eyes. And at that point in time, I was still pretty naive and I thought, Oh gee whiz, if I just talk to church leaders about this, they will surely want to help me. And there'll be older and wiser.

Now they'll want to make sure that this man can't hurt anyone else. Yeah. And, of course, I've never been more wrong about anything in my life. That was not what happened. But as a mother, I just could not accept that. I mean, going to, you know, a [00:09:00] couple dozen Southern Baptist leaders trying to get someone to help with this, and finding absolutely no one.

Yeah. Even though my story was, you know, Corroborated and documented. That was just something that I could not accept and still can't. And then when I wrote my first op ed for the Dallas Morning News, and this is as far back as 2006. I thought, okay, I'm just going to say my piece here and get it out there.

And then I could walk away from all this and never mess with it. But, but what happened was, you know, my email was at the bottom of that op ed piece and and I was just flooded. And so then I, yeah. And then I realized, oh my God, yeah. And I could not, and I just kind of. I've been in this ever since.

So here I am still. Yeah,

Katherine: absolutely. Tell me a little bit about I, I love the letter that you write of just like this perspective [00:10:00] Just because there's no hope for the church doesn't mean there's no hope. Tell me a little bit about that and how that motivates you to sort of keep telling this story and keep saying stuff needs to change.

Christa: Well, it has always, I think, in very large measure been The stories of other survivors that has motivated me and I can't tell all of those stories. I, that I can tell my own story and hope that that helps others in the process and hope that it reveals something of the patterns of what happens in these dreadful dynamics.

And so the book ends with a letter that I wrote to clergy sex abuse survivors survivors. And, you know, at this point in time, I've kind of been in this for about 20 years, and I do not hold hope, certainly not for the Southern Baptist Convention for, for true, meaningful reform. No, they've had countless opportunities to reckon with this, and that's not what they're doing.

But that doesn't [00:11:00] mean there is no hope, because I think in every life. When someone reaches the point that they can begin to look at what was done to them, and even speak it to themselves. Or to close friends what was done and speak the truth of what was done, that that is hopeful for that person's life.

Because it is, it is the truth that carries us forward. And that brings transformation in our own lives. And that's a very hopeful thing. And so I do hold hope for that. And that's why I keep doing what I do, because I do think that truth holds power as a moral force in the universe. And even, you know, even whatever the Southern Baptist Convention ever does or doesn't do.

We still stand in the truth and that truth is what holds power for us.

Katherine: Yeah, the truth alone itself is important and some reason for hope I resonated with that a lot. I [00:12:00] think for the first few years that Tears of Eden existed and the podcast existed. I was kind of focused on like speaking to the church.

Like you need to do better. You need to stop doing this. You need to do better. And then quickly lost steam. I was like, it's not, it's like one story after another, after another, after another. People having very similar experiences to you. Going to the leadership, going through all the quote unquote right channels to like try and address it and getting shut down, getting re traumatized, re abused.

And it's like, and even now just the climate of the church, the institutional church across all denominations, it's like they're digging in and it's like they're just digging in. They're, they're, they're, they're not, there's not even an opening really for any kind of change or reform. It's like they're just, they're kind of circling the wagons and like making this even, you know, more strong stance.

And so [00:13:00] turning to shifting to, I'm not going to try and change this institution. I'm going to talk to the people who have survived was so much more. fulfilling and just like, okay, that institution is going to keep abusing people. And I am going to be here. This organization is going to be here for when those people are needing help.

It sucks. It's not ideal. But I love the way that you describe it as hope, so that this one person individual person collective of people get an opportunity to share their story, and that they are believed somewhere. Massive amount of hope

Christa: there. No, I resonate with that totally because I think for me too.

In the early years, I sort of viewed myself as speaking truth to power. Mm hmm. I don't view what I'm doing that way anymore, because the truth is the powerful [00:14:00] already know. Oh, they do. Yes. Oh, they do. They already know. Absolutely. . so nowadays, I think what I'm really doing is just speaking truth.

With and for the powerless. It is solidarity with them. Yeah,

Katherine: Absolutely. And I, I have stopped calling them are very recently stopped calling them power holders and call them power hoarders because they are just conglomerating and, and not. this is not an accident that they're in these places.

Like they're intentionally seeking and using a platform of religion and God to get to these places. I saw that thread in your book. Do you, I mean, I'm assuming that that was intentional of this thread of, People intentionally using God in the Bible to get to these places. Tell me about that, if that was intentional and what patterns you've seen of [00:15:00] just these type of predators actually intentionally using God in the Bible and the church institution to get these places of power.

Christa: Yes. I'm glad you saw that because of course that was intentional because that is what's happening. And I think you see that in the book. Both on a micro level and on a macro level. It replicates at the macro level. On the micro level, you see it in the way, of course, that Bible verses and Scripture and the whole power of the faith.

It is used literally as a weapon for child rape. at the macro level though, in this day and time, we are very much, I think, seeing something quite similar in the way that biblical perspective is essentially being used very often as a propaganda tool for maintaining status quo power. Yeah. And essentially using evangelical theology to legitimize authoritarianism.

Mm hmm. And I [00:16:00] think those are kind of the same thing there. Using faith as a tool and a weapon for domination and control. Mm hmm.

Katherine: Speak to the person who thinks that they can address the abuse in the church without addressing the theology.

Christa: You know, I do not think you can do this without addressing the theology, without interrogating

 The theology that we see in, in a very broad swath of evangelicalism is a theology of male headship and female submissiveness teaching that men should be in charge and have authority over women and of course also over children.

And that Women, females should submit and even that they should graciously submit. And when you have a theology that teaches that some [00:17:00] people by virtue of nothing more than how they are born should be people who have others in authority over them. That is a theology that lends itself, I think, to abuse.

And when you combine that theology with an institutional structure that is wholly lacking in accountability systems, then what you've done is you've created this Frankenstein monster. That just inflicts enormous harm on so many people. And this theology, it's not as if they simply teach that this is the way it should be.

They're teaching that this is the way God says it should be. And that is incredibly powerful. And I do not think that this that you can solve this without interrogating seriously that theology itself.

Katherine: Absolutely. I'm going to [00:18:00] ask you another question because I know what the critics are going to say.

Hopefully they are not listening to my podcast anymore, but just in case, what about the teaching to the main tenant of complementarianism is that men and women are equal, but they just have different roles. What do you say to that?

Christa: Well, I think it's the same thing that we saw in Southern Baptist theology with their, I mean, with their, the way they addressed race.

And I mean, this began as an institution that was founded for the very purpose of having slaveholding missionaries. It was founded as an institution that sanctified slavery, that consecrated the confederacy, and gave birth to a bloody civil war. This is the Southern Baptist Convention. That is their very roots, [00:19:00] and those roots are still there.

And that, the same theology, That derives from those roots saying that white people should have authority over black people is now the very same theology they're using to say that white men or all men should have authority over all females, they can use that word equal all they want, but separate but equal is never equal.

Katherine: Yeah,

Christa: it's not.

Katherine: Yes. No, I love that you compared it to that, that slogan of separate but equal. Like, if there is something distinctly about your person that is causing the separation, it's not equality. It's, it's just not. You can use that word. It is not true. It's just, yeah, it's not. Yes. I saw in your bio that you're a lawyer or used to be a lawyer.

[00:20:00] I'm a retired attorney. Yes. Retired attorney. What was your And what has been your approach to this from like a legal perspective and like what you think needs to happen legally?

Christa: Well you know, I, I'm a retired attorney, so I don't give legal advice. But certainly I think my background has helped shape how I think about these things.

Or You know I do think that the Southern Baptist Convention has shown that it has no interest, not really, in seriously reckoning with this problem. And the only thing that will bring change in this massive, cantacular, multi billion dollar institution is outside pressure. And that outside pressure comes from lawsuits, civil lawsuits, criminal prosecutions independent investigations and from the media and so, you know, there, there are a lot of problems with bringing civil lawsuits, [00:21:00] particularly here in the south there are a lot of states that have very archaic statutes of limitation that, that impede the bringing of lawsuits.

But I believe that will change over time. I, I hold faith. In the dog

Katherine: statue of limitation all together across the board. Just

Christa: yeah, and I hold faith that that will eventually happen. I think the trend is going that way and I think America's trial lawyers are pushing and I have a lot of faith in America's trial lawyers.

 Yeah, it won't happen in my lifetime, but this is the way it's going.

Katherine: Right. Yeah, and I think that that's helpful just kind of clarity for folks who are still relying on bringing in, you know, People to come in and try and do, you know, counseling and try and do, you know, organizational training or coaching or whatever within the institution, the same power power hoarders within that institution [00:22:00] are still controlling.

Even that, like it has to come from outside to make any, if there is going to be any change.

Christa: It does. And I am so grateful also, just want to say here to so many fine journalists who have done enormous work over the past couple decades. We would know so much less. Yeah, about the dynamics of how they hold this power, were it not for the work of dedicated journalists

Katherine: and authors like yourself

Christa: are

Katherine: also for the

Christa: courage and an outspokenness of so many survivors who stepped outside.

The arena and went to the outside and spoke the truth of their stories. Yeah,

Katherine: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, just for folks who since you do have, you know, the attorney experience. I know a big fear for a lot of folks and I don't know how litigious the SBC is. I'm [00:23:00] familiar with some denominations that are very litigious.

That fear of speaking their own story and then getting having being sued for like defamation or slander. Have you seen any patterns or anything that is helpful in that type of situation?

Christa: I think that risk, of course, is there and the Southern Baptist Convention has certainly shown that it will use scorched earth litigation tactics against survivors.

We certainly saw that it finally came to light in the case involving Paul Pressler where it came to light that they actually had emails among themselves where they showed that they knew that his allegations had serious corroboration and despite that for six years They tried every means possible against him in the litigation process.

We've seen it in the litigation involving another woman [00:24:00] in Kentucky. And I think, of course, what we see in this is, is really where their heart is. They aren't trying to do right by survivors, they're trying to squash survivors every way they can. And, and I know there's, there's a lot of us who were raised in this, in evangelicalism and broad swaths of it that teach that, you know, believers shouldn't sue other believers.

You know what? Get past that. Get past that and get yourself a good lawyer. Get over it. Get past that and go talk to a good lawyer. And maybe there's some, the legal system isn't perfect. And sometimes, given the passage of time and all sorts of factors, there may not be good legal recourse. But it is always worth at least consulting with a good sexual abuse attorney about your options.

Katherine: Yeah. And at least know, at least know what they are. And then there are ways I think also to just like go public about your story. It's so hard when you are the, [00:25:00] the survivor. And so like you are telling your version of the story. But I think that there are ways to like tell the story too.

And so like talking to journalists and stuff too, like how to, how do I phrase this so that. They're going to still come after you, even if you do all of potentially all of the things right that anyone can sue anyone for any reason. But yeah, there are, there are things that we can do to, to protect ourselves.

Right. With a time that we have left I would love to hear just maybe just like your, you would, what wanna say to survivors and people who are reading your book. What do you want people to take away when they read the book,

Christa: you know, to survivors? I say, first of all, you know, the, the very, it is the very nature I think, of sexual abuse that it inculcates in this.

this idea that we don't hold any value. And that's a lie. That is a lie. You are all, each and every one of you, [00:26:00] are human beings of infinite worth. And the lie that the abuse has inculcated and the continuing lie that faith leaders inculcate by their do nothing reactions as though it's no big deal.

All of that, all of that is a lie. So I say that to you. And at the same time, I would also say, you know, it's hard to do, but cultivate your skepticism. And I think that's really important. And don't feel guilty skepticism. They have not earned your trust, not one bit. So cultivate your skepticism and that skepticism, and when we see that faith itself, is being weaponized both to commit abuse and to silence survivors, then it behooves us to cultivate skepticism even as to [00:27:00] matters of faith.

Sure.

Katherine: Absolutely. No, and I appreciate, I appreciate you saying that because I think it's so easy for folks to just say, but then don't give up on God and then don't give up on the church and, and that can just kind of. Defeat everything that comes before that. Yes. And like that avenue of maybe this has done so much to destroy trust that it's no longer worthy of me investing and putting my time and my, my heart and my faith into this that, that, that is a legitimate option for people.

And guilt free. Yes, absolutely.

Christa: That is a

Katherine: legitimate path.

Christa: Yes, give yourself that freedom and focus on yourself and your own healing and make that the priority and let faith fall where it falls.

Katherine: Yeah.

Christa: But focus on yourself.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. [00:28:00] Absolutely. Yeah. And that, that, that being so counter to the theology that we were raised with of just like surrender.

I love the part in your book where you're just talking about that all to Jesus. I just surrender him that we all saying. And it was like, it's like an embedded into everything to just divorce yourself from yourself and to like give up everything. And that. When you are doing that, you, you become this ripe victim for for predators because, because there is nothing, no personal internal radar that you are able to pay attention to that you're, you're discouraged from paying attention to it.

 In, in the, in these spaces because of this theology. And I 100 percent agree with you. It is worthy of.

Christa: All right, because what we've been taught is our bodies are not our own, our lives are not our own. Our lives are for the service of God, [00:29:00] which often means the service of these men who tell us about God.

Well, we gotta let that go.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Long journey, long journey to get there, but absolutely 100 percent worth it. This was great. This was awesome. This is wonderful. Where can people find you? How can they follow you? How can they interact with you?

Christa: Well, I'm very active on Twitter.

I'm Krista Brown, 777. I also have a Substack newsletter, which is kristabrown. substack. com. Those are probably the two best places. All

Katherine: right, I will put that stuff in the show notes. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

 I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

In this episode, we’ll discuss how the church’s common stance on suffering for Christ often gets twisted in such a way that victims feel they cannot leave abusive homes, churches, or jobs.

Rebecca Davis is a trauma-informed writer, book coach, speaker, compassionate witness, prayer minister, and lover of Jesus who lives in Greenville, South Carolina. Her work as a trauma-informed book coach and ghostwriter can be found at rebeccadaviswordworking.com.

Find a list of all Rebeccas Untwisting Scriptures books here: https://heresthejoy.com/books-2/

Listen to another Uncertain Episode with Rebecca S4:E12 Untwisting Teachings Around Loyalty, Sin Leveling, & Bitterness

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings:

[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain.

 The uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support.

 You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening.

Katherine: Hi, Rebecca. How are you? It's so good to be here. Thank you for having me, Catherine. I'm excited to talk about your new book, book five, where you're on twisting scriptures about brokenness and suffering. Yes,

Rebecca: book five and the untwisting scripture series. My daughter asked me how many books in this series I was going to write.

I said, I do not know. I'm going to keep going. [00:01:00]

Katherine: Keeps coming up. I'm excited about this one. Because, well, I'm excited about all of them. I think they're all really important, but this one, I think the teaching about brokenness and suffering in the church. will often keep people in abusive situations and keep them recognizing that.

And so this is really important, really, really important. And so we had another interview with you when your book four came out and so I'm going to link that in the show notes so folks have That to listen to as well, but to just get us started, I would love to hear what fuels your passion for writing these books.

Rebecca: Oh boy. That's a really, really good question. For one thing, when I first got started, the first untwisting scriptures book came out in 2016 and then it was about four years before I really got the series rolling, which is not a great way to do a series, but anyway, that's what happened. But my first initial [00:02:00] passion was.

I hated, hated seeing how God, and this was all new to me 10 years ago, seeing how God was being represented as an abuser. And it wasn't that I'd never heard the teachings. It's because I didn't grow up with abuse. I didn't marry into abuse. I hadn't been subject to the abuse, so I didn't see. I was just blind.

To how the logical conclusion of these teachings, where that logical conclusion would go, because it was all theory to me, it hadn't been worked out in practice, but then when I saw when I heard people coming to me about this and saying, well, I was taught you have to give up all your rights was thinking, you know, kind of remember that somewhere.

Well, I'd been to the Bill Gothard seminars that taught about giving up your rights many years before, but I hadn't, and I thought at the time, you know, I just believed everything he said, but there wasn't ever in my life, ever a time when my rights weren't acknowledged. [00:03:00] And just like part of the air I breathed because I was not in abuse.

So then I see when people who are in abuse are being told, give up your rights. I see. Starting in 2012, the logical conclusion this is coming to, that they are going to be absolutely trampled on. And I'm, I'm astonished and appalled at what's happening to these people. And then the next step is I'm astonished and appalled that God is being represented this way.

They think this is what God wants to do. And so that was my initial passion fueling me. Now I'm seeing it actually in the Bible who God really is, that he is not how these people have represented him.

Katherine: Yeah, and and folks are able to determine what that looks like for them and what their beliefs look like for them and not base those beliefs on abusive people who've been teaching [00:04:00] them these abusive messages. And that's I feel like that's really important for me for folks to create their own journey and not base it on because so many things I think in the church are just either tradition.

Or really harmful things that have been taught to us by. Yes,

Rebecca: like listen to authority. You someone wrote to me and said yours that she was taught. I'm supposed to lead and feed and you're supposed to follow and swallow. I think that's how it went. Oh, my God. I thought I had never heard that one reaction to that.

So that's that. That could be so many things. And yet that is so it's like, I was I was feeling some some, some strong emotions in response to that. But it's that authority teaching. Turn your brain off. Turn your brain off. Do not think. If you think, then you've been ungodly or something. You just have to believe me, the [00:05:00] leader, and follow me.

Whereas, I've always believed since I was young and want to encourage other people. Go to the Bible yourself. Look at it yourself. Let's examine everything Untwisting Scriptures books. Go look at it yourself and see what the Bible is really teaching.

Katherine: And be prepared for where that may lead, depending on the environment that you're in.

Rebecca: Yes. And I hope I hope my hope is that it will lead to seeing that God really is a God who loves his people and wants to be with his people. And one of the best representations in the scriptures, I mean, there are many good ones, but one of the best is that father who's running out to the prodigal son and embracing him and bringing him in and Even wanting to have a relationship with his older son, who's, who's unhappy.

Let's, I'll just put it that way, very unhappy. He wants, he wants relationship. He is a God of relationship. And the more I research the [00:06:00] topic, the untwisting scriptures, the more I see that in my study. God is a God of relationship with his people, healthy, Good relationship, not abusive relationship, not just, just obey me and stop whining,

those are all things that are, I'm very, very passionate about.

Katherine: So , book five, Brokenness and Suffering, what are some of the questions that you're seeking to answer with this?

Rebecca: Yes, well, initially when I started this book, it was going to be called, suffering, dying to self and life.

And then I started finding I realized, Oh, my goodness, I need to talk about brokenness. That's a huge thing. And then that expanded and expanded. And I realized, dying to self and life, you're gonna have to wait for a future book, I just have to focus on these two things for this book. And that's enough. And when I did start the study of brokenness, which I started, there were two things.

One was prompting it. I've been [00:07:00] hearing about brokenness and how we're all broken or we're all supposed to be broken or, or brokenness is, is either godly or it's inevitable. We're just, everybody's broken or something. I was thinking something is off, something is off about all this teaching. And there were two things.

That prompted my research for the brokenness section of this book, which leads into the suffering section. And one of them was a woman who wrote to me about all the triggering songs in church that talked about God in an abusive way. And at the time I thought, well, I didn't like some of these songs, but other ones of them I didn't either I didn't know or I didn't notice.

And she was talking about how, how it says how different songs will say things like, crash into Me. It doesn't say destroy me, but it's almost like it says Destroy me. Mm-Hmm. , like, like completely o overcome me. And Until You, until I'm nothing. Me. [00:08:00] I think that's consume me. That's the one, that's the one consume me.

And when I looked at it through her eyes. I thought, Oh my word, that's right. That's exactly what this says. I am ready to be basically destroyed by God. This, the Bible never speaks that way ever actually. So I think these songs are really problematic as much as some Christians might like these songs and reinterpret the songs in their heads.

I think that the, the songs don't represent. how the Bible speaks about our God with his people. So then and the other thing I said, there were two things. One of them was this, that woman writing to me about the songs. And the other one was a very popular sermon given by Nancy Lita Moss back in the nineties.

And it was, From what I could tell the beginning of her rise in fame. Now she would have already been rising in fame. She was from a very wealthy family was very well connected. but this, [00:09:00] this was at Moody and Moody Bible Institute. she gave a sermon about how everybody needed to be broken. And she's given that sermon again, like in recent days, that was 95 ish.

And this, the most recent ones was 2016 and that I could find anyway. And the message was basically the same. I thought, did she change? Did she modify? But no, they're basically the same message. So I, I took a chapter to talk about the brokenness teachings. like in the songs and what the Bible says about brokenness.

And so I thought, all right, this is what I do. Since I'm in untwisting scriptures, I go through every Bible reference to this concept. And I thought, I will, I probably won't find that much because You know, there just aren't that many references to brokenness in the Bible, but I was really surprised at how much I found about brokenness or breaking in the Bible.

And the references were, I mean, it just delighted my [00:10:00] heart. The references were to God, how God breaks the wicked and, and it's really important for us. to understand that not everyone is the wicked. Do you see what I'm saying? Because in book four, and I had to reference back to book four to distinguish the righteous from the wicked, the wicked are the ones whose hearts are set against God.

Even if, even if they present really well, even if they present as a godly person. And this is what the Bible calls wolves and sheep's clothing, which is why the subtitle of book four is wolves, hypocrisy, sin leveling, and righteousness. Sin leveling is treating all sins as equal. A very important concept to understand when you're going to recognize in the Bible, God breaks the wicked.

To think, wait a minute, I love Jesus, I'm following Jesus. I don't have a heart of hypocrisy as [00:11:00] defined in the Bible, which I outlined very clearly in book four. I don't have that kind of heart. So that means I'm not one of those wicked and I'm not a person who's that God is going to break. Now, maybe somebody else is breaking me, but it won't be God.

You see what I'm saying? Now, there was also the case of Psalm 51, very common verse. David refers to the bones that you have broken being able to rejoice it. So I dig into that Let's look at Psalm 51 because I saw in the scriptures. God breaks the wicked and God breaks the hard hearted believer who needs to be

David

Rebecca: needs something deep to happen to them in order to get them to come back to the Lord.

So those are the only two things I saw the wicked, like in, in judgment, like judgment day and any other judgment the Lord brings. And the hard hearted believer, David was [00:12:00] hard hearted. He was so hard. Hard. All right. Background to Psalm 51. It's the, the repentance mourning confession Psalm after Nathan, the prophet came into David and told him you are the one who has stolen somebody else's pet lamb and destroyed it.

So it was in reference to his, his abuse, sexual assault of Bathsheba and the We might say indirect murder of her husband and so broken is needed to happen. Exactly. Exactly. When David committed adultery, or I might say committed sexual abuse, rape of Beth Sheba, he could have repented. Then he could have repented at any time.

He could have turned back to the Lord at any point, but when he, when you see that, not only when she told him, I, I'm going to have a baby. When he, he, he didn't. Like come before the Lord in weeping and mourning at that time. [00:13:00] He said, okay, I better get her husband out of the way that shows hard heartedness When someone is hard hearted God does knee I would say I would pray for God to do some breaking of that person to break their hearts over their sin That's what happened to David That is a very specific psalm about, about a very specific situation that would apply to people if they are hard hearted.

I don't like all of us, the ones who love Jesus and are following Him and want to do His will and are desperate to do His will, praying that. Because it doesn't apply to us. One of my points in my books, all the way through the books is that not all scripture applies to us. We can learn from all of it, but we don't take all of it and say, this is about me.

That just isn't, it's, it's one of the foundational hermeneutical principles that I follow when I work on my untwisting scriptures books. They don't all apply to [00:14:00] every

Katherine: context. That's right. That's right.

Rebecca: Yes. So then that's that chapter, and I talk about Nancy Liedemaus sermon and the examples that she uses of brokenness.

that either don't apply or don't even make sense. So I do want to point out illogic when, when people are illogical, because illogic happens a lot. And when it's just in a flow, in a flow of things, people might not notice. There's illogic going on because for one thing, they're taught to turn off their brains when they're hearing a sermon.

And that's what I did back in my Bill Gothard days. I just received, received, received. And it was years later that I looked at it and thought, Oh my word, this stuff is terrible.

Katherine: Yeah.

Rebecca: That I did not see it at the time. I will excuse myself because I was very young, but it was still really wrong and I should have been paying attention and listening.

Katherine: I agree with the logic thing. And I think that logic has been a huge part of my story, even when I was young [00:15:00] and. All the way up into my mid twenties, my main abuser, spiritual abuser teaching these things.

And then also teaching us that we need to know our Bible and go and read your Bible. And then I would read the Bible and I would see something different than what they were teaching. And then I would talk to them about it. And then they would tell me that I was wrong. And it was, and the logic of like, that why do you get to be the one if like god is the authority that we're listening to and the bible is what we're supposed to be paying attention to and i come to a different conclusion to you than you why do you get to be the one that decides and i think I believe this person has a lot of different personality disorders because I really believe that they didn't think it was possible for someone to think differently than them.

I think they were so completely flabbergasted. They thought they were so right. And then if everyone [00:16:00] studied the way they studied, then everyone would come to their same conclusion about it. And there was no space for like, nuance, context, the fact that it didn't apply to you and, and just, again, like, the logic of the situation being a massive factor for me to like, wake up to those, you know, Wake up to some of the stuff that was happening and like, this actually is just doesn't make sense, you

Rebecca: know, and you are exceptional that way, because you were actually asking questions.

So many people when they go to the Bible, if they see something, or if their logic, or the Holy Spirit leads them to a different conclusion from what they've been taught. Many, many people will just shut that part out, shut it out, shut it out, because that's heresy if I believe something different from my leader.

And then for [00:17:00] many people, they'll listen to audios of their leader more than they'll listen to the Bible. They'll read things written by their leader more than they'll read the Bible. Yeah. But the fact is that there are certain aspects of biblical doctrine that people have been disagreeing on. Like for hundreds and thousands of years.

It's so true. We're not going to suddenly figure it out. So that's where we say we can, we can have, you know, there are just a very few basics that you agree on to call yourself a Christian. And like, I believe as a, as a Christian. And when I use that word, I want to use it in the way the book of acts uses it rather than the way it's used nowadays.

When I call myself a Christian, I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior. And there are really very few things that will keep me [00:18:00] from fellowshipping or having a camaraderie, let's say, instead of that other word with other people who disagree with me on a lot of different things. So it's just.

I'm so glad you were able to see that. But it really, it's astonishing when you step back and look, this sounds like the way a cult operates. You have to agree with the leader.

Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that they would discourage you from reading the Bible if more people were doing that. And then like what is the Christian scientists?

Mary Baker Eddy's book is used to interpret the Bible, so they would, like, tell you very specifically, like, this is what this means. So you read it, but you have to have it accompanied with this other voice. So there's a

Rebecca: certain filter. Here's the filter that you have to put over the Bible when you read it.

And if you read it without that filter, then you're in deep, [00:19:00] dark trouble. And you might be headed for hell, you know, so it's that way following your own ways. Yes. Yes. And your own what your own heart is what deceitful above all things, right? That is in that's in one of my untwisting scriptures books. I don't know

Katherine: what that verse means.

Exactly. That's a very common, commonly Misused and abused scripture. Yes, it's

Rebecca: used like an attack rocket, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna mow you down with this one. It's really easy to just be like, well, your heart is deceitful. That's right. It took me

Katherine: a long while to be like, why do you get to say that?

Rebecca: That's right. Because doesn't that mean your heart is deceitful too? Your heart is

deceitful too? Which one's

Rebecca: more? That's right. That's right. And, and it is. It's it can be so difficult for people coming out of these super authoritarian structures to recognize. Hey, I have the Holy Spirit too. I can, I can listen to the Lord [00:20:00] too.

I can read the Bible too. What if I come to a different conclusion about certain things? Does that mean that I'm, that the Lord is going to reject me because I wasn't listening to my authority? Or does it mean? My authority and I are actually my my so called authority and I are actually on the same level ground that we both get to read the Bible and and seek the Lord and ask the Lord what he means.

And maybe we can read other people. I hope some people will read my books, of course, but I never want my books to supersede or be a filter through which you read the scriptures. Read the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit what they mean. Ask him to help you connect scripture with scripture. I pass on, What I've learned, but I want everybody to dig in for themselves.

And if you come to a different conclusion, I will say, I hope we can still be friends, you know?

Katherine: Oh yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think that that's that's, [00:21:00] that's really great to just hold, hold that space for differences of opinions and not being, and as you said, just like the, Evidence of a cult leader being super dogmatic that this is the way that it exists, but it's so powerful, especially if you're raised in it, like that you can't trust yourself.

And especially if that's assigned to something like, because you're a child, you can't, you have to trust the adults or because you are a teenager or because you are in your 20s or because you are a woman or any of these other. Things that are intrinsic to us that then make us untrustworthy to be able to read scripture and interpret it.

It's really powerful, really difficult. Absolutely.

Rebecca: And, and the environment a child is raised in is huge. A lot of the people who write to me are, you know, People who were raised in in the spiritually abusive environments [00:22:00] that we might call cults. Yes that They're trying to break out of and there are patterns in their mind That they can be changed.

I love how new brain science is showing that new patterns can be formed in the brain. Whereas before they used to talk about the brain, like it was cement and you couldn't do anything about it, but definitely new patterns can be formed. And I do have a free a free guide on my website. Here's the joy.

com. That's called how to enjoy the Bible again, after spiritual abuse, how to enjoy the Bible again, when you're ready after spiritual abuse without feeling guilty or getting triggered out of your mind. Because a lot of people say, when I try to read the Bible, I hear it in my abuser's voice. Yep. And I don't know how to break out of that.

It is possible. It is possible to break out of that, but it can be. a road. It can be a dream. Sure.

Katherine: Yeah. And that was true for me for probably [00:23:00] seven, eight years reading the Bible. And like, I cannot get the interpretation of, you know, this person out of my head. And I mean, that's trauma. It's trauma. It's a trauma bond.

It's a, yes, absolutely. It's very, very deep.

Rebecca: . And understanding those things, I think understanding the, the way the brain works, the mind and brain system. As well as understanding spiritual abuse and then wanting to understand the Bible. I think all of those things need to work together. I think it's good for, for us to have a deeper understanding.

I have something, this is off the subject of book five, but I'm going to tell you this. On my website, heresthejoy. com, I have a statement of beliefs, my statement of beliefs. And one of the sections is called the sufficiency of scripture. And in that section I say I believe the scripture is sufficient to show us who God is, how our salvation is accomplished, what he wants from us, and, and how we can relate to him, blah, blah, blah.[00:24:00]

But I believe the scripture is not sufficient, and was never intended to be sufficient, to tell us all the ways abuse can be executed on people off the way the brain works in trauma and several other things I list there. The script that isn't what the scripture is about. Yeah. So for us to look to brain science or some tools that people use, like, oh, say EMDR, maybe because of how the brain works, isn't going against the Bible.

That isn't what the Bible's about. It can actually be a tool Those things, some of those brainy things can be tools to help us regulate better so that we can come back to the scriptures and look at them fresh and see more clearly after spiritual abuse who God really is, who we really are, and how the world operates, how salvation is accomplished, all of those things.

They can be extremely [00:25:00] helpful.

Katherine: , I remember my main abuser saying the Bible is good enough for everything. It is, is, it is, I don't know if they were use the word sufficient, but like it, it like it is the only book that you need which is so It's so discombobulated when absolutely,

Rebecca: It is the revelation of God to man about God, about salvation.

You know, we can learn about God from nature. We can learn a lot about God from nature, but to understand his plan of salvation, that's in the Bible. But there are other things, like the Bible does not address those things, and it never intended to address those things.

So we've got to get outside of the book. The box of the Bible is sufficient for everything. I, I, I find it so funny and ironic and hypocritical that Jay Adams, the founder of Newthetic, so called biblical counseling. I know all these people. I know all these people. Wrote like a hundred books telling you that the Bible is the [00:26:00] only book you need,

Katherine: you're right, that is so ironic. But read my book to tell you that.

Rebecca: That's right, you've got to read my books. But, but I will go back and say the Bible is the only book you need. Anyway, it doesn't make any sense at all. Yeah, that is

Katherine: your absolute logic. Logic here, right?

There you go. There's the logic.

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Katherine: What are some of the responses that you have received to this particular book?

Rebecca: I get responses. To all my books, pretty often, like some people have just discovered the series and they're reading the whole series and last summer I sent this one brokenness and suffering out to my beta readers, and then my book launch team, and I got a lot of bit strong responses from them about [00:27:00] how, you know, some of them have read all of my books and they, and they think maybe they're all done untwisting all the, all the things.

And they read the next one and they go, Oh my word, there were all these things too. So, so I do often get responses like this was extremely helpful and it has been very freeing to me. Freeing is one of the. One of the most common words I get, and of course, if you're all tangled up, the, the, the subtitle of my earlier books was Untwisting Scriptures that have been used to tie you up.

gag you and tangle your mind. So if those things are being undone, then of course you're going to feel free. I think some church leaders feel afraid of the concept of people getting free because then they maybe they think, oh, then they'll They'll be free to sin. Well, you know, the New Testament talks a good bit about freedom, and it's not freedom to sin.[00:28:00]

It's freedom in Jesus Christ to actually know him, that's when I pound over and over.

I pound on that because that was so free to me 20 years ago when I first understood it, that I wanted other people to know it. All of our righteousness is in Jesus Christ alone, not in the hoops we jump through, not in the list we keep, not in the ways we make ourselves smaller and smaller. Smaller and more and more invisible and more and more ready to be kicked and punched and beaten down.

Not any of that. It is all in Jesus Christ alone. So I do emphasize in this book the importance of understanding that God is not the one, except in those two cases, the wicked and the hard hearted believer. He's not the one who inflicts. This broken, this breaking, he's not the one who [00:29:00] inflicts the, the abuse and a common saying, I guess, in Christendom is we are all broken.

And I've never really liked that one because I thought, how can we all. always be broken. Does God, does God not ever heal? Does he never heal brokenness? I can understand being broken because there are abusers and, and there are people who break and shatter people who, I mean, there's some people who are really, really beaten down.

Isn't God the healer? So why are we going to keep on saying that we're all broken? Can we go to him for healing? Does he heal? That's one of the questions I wanted to grapple with. And Jesus says right there in the scriptures that he has come to heal the brokenhearted and to set the captives free. So I don't think it's scriptural to say we're all broken all the time, [00:30:00] forever and ever.

We can say, actually, he's healed me. Now, I want people to be honest if they still feel shattered if they still feel broken, then definitely. Let's let's Do what needs to be done, not deny that feeling exactly. We don't want to just deny that,

but

Rebecca: we do want to see that healing is possible down the road and coming to the Lord is not an identity

Katherine: that we have to embrace.

That's

Rebecca: right. And there is another thing I addressed in that book two chapters on it, the victim mentality, because it was really bothering me a lot that people were being accused of having a victim mentality. When, familiar with that one, when they want to get help, when they want to warn other people when they need to process their trauma.

I mean, when they express that they don't like something. Yes. Like, Oh, you're just stuck in the past. You just have your victim mentality. [00:31:00] Get out of that. And I think, so what is a victim mentality really? So I do think it's possible to have a victim mentality, but the only. way I saw it as being a real thing is when a person accuses everybody else of always being the problem.

Like everybody else is always taking advantage of me. I lost my last, I got fired from my last 10 jobs, but it was always somebody else. It was always the boss. It was always the co worker. And I thought, That sounds more like an abuser than a victim to me, like abusers or, and maybe, maybe not abusers, but people who just aren't willing to actually look at themselves and see how they need to change.

But to accuse someone of this very victim mentality, that term is always negative to accuse someone of having this victim mentality, when really they are just trying to they're trying to [00:32:00] bring awareness to others of a big problem, like either a problem they need help with or a problem like you've got a problem in your church.

I've heard so often when people are trying to bring awareness about an abuser in the church or lack of safety in the Nursery for example. Yeah. Oh, you're just you're you're just too Stuck in the past because you had childhood trauma yourself. So their own their own ability to see the problems is ignored because They, they're the canary in the coal mine because they have a greater ability to see the problems.

They notice things. Anyway, I'm talking, talking. What do you want to say, Kevin?

Katherine: My, my final question is, you know, kind of, we're talking about it and we're, we're talking about it. We're addressing it, but I would love to hear, are there any specific ways that you have seen this [00:33:00] twisted application of brokenness and suffering, keeping people in abusive systems?

And how have you seen that play out? Oh, absolutely.

Rebecca: One of the chapters in this book is specifically based on a letter I received from someone, and often blog posts or book chapters are based on answers to letters I've received. A woman who was in an abusive marriage for very, very long time, many decades, said it was based on something about something that Puritan had written about suffering, but that's just one of many.

It could have been many, many people writing about suffering and how when we suffer, it's like the suffering of Jesus. And there can be redemption through our suffering because he brought redemption through his suffering. And so she said, I would even look for ways to suffer. Because I felt like that was going to make me more godly.

People say our suffering is going to make us more godly. And so I would look [00:34:00] for ways to suffer. And I would, I don't think she said she was glad when her abusive husband abused her, but she was sure that that was going to make her more godly. And it took her a very, very long time to understand that that was not the heart of God.

And it was right. To get away from suffering at the hands of someone who said, who promised he would love and protect you promised it before a room of witnesses. That's it's, it's so twisted. And I don't blame the individuals for having the twisted thinking, because it's what they've been taught to think that someone who promises at the wedding ceremony, the wedding vows.

Promises to love and protect you and then abuses you that that's a good thing That is not a good thing and yet so much of the church You you need to stay in that abusive marriage. Of course, they won't call it abuse. They'll just call it marriage and [00:35:00] need to stay you need to stay in that marriage and Continue to suffer and god will refine you and he will redeem your marriage and all these wrong teachings That is that keep people in a place of oppression.

So it is, and it's not just marriage. It's also children under abusive parents and abusing trafficking situations. Yes. The abusive pastor. Yes, absolutely. Well, I should just say church leader because he's not really a pastor, but self proclaimed leader. That's right. That's right. There you go. The It's part of this is so I see how all the abusive teachings work together and I address lots of abusive teachings in my five books so far, how all of them work together to create this environment this atmosphere, almost like a web, a web around people, you try to push against it and just you just get more and more stuck in the [00:36:00] web.

Yeah, and, and all of these different things. These teachings that are not the heart of God and not really what the scripture teaches are pushing against people to try to keep them small, keep them contained, keep them from thinking, keep them from listening to the Holy Spirit, keeping them from being able to escape their abusive situation.

So that is my passion to get

Katherine: back to the very first question you asked. And what would you, say to someone who does wake up and recognizes I'm, I'm in this abusive system and this teaching is keeping me trapped here. What would be, you know, maybe like a safe exit plan or what are, you know, what are some initials?

I

Rebecca: actually, I actually don't do exit plans. I refer them to people who do because that's not my specialty. And I want to, I want, I am willing to stay. I love it. Yeah, that's right. I stay in my lane and I'm absolutely willing to [00:37:00] stay connected with people.

You know, they can make appointments with me. We can stay connected by email. One person recently wrote and said, I don't know if you even see this. It might be your assistant who sees it. Well, no, I, I read and answer all my emails, but for actual exit plans, That is, that's huge. People need to have them. But I have connections of people who are passionate about helping people in that way.

And I'm happy to refer them to someone who can do that with them.

Katherine: Great. I appreciate that. Well, thank you so, so much. Tell folks where they can find you and find your book.

Rebecca: Yes. Here's the joy. com is my website and you can see all my stuff there and my books. My Untwisting Scriptures book series are all on Amazon.

. And I've written or co written over 20 books, so I'm well versed in this area and happy to help others. Great. Thank you so much for

Katherine: untwisting scriptures. Thank you, Catherine, for having me. I really [00:38:00] appreciate it. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

 I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

Cait West is a writer and editor based in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Her work has been published in The Revealer, Religion Dispatches, Fourth Genre, and Hawai`i Pacific Review, among others. As an advocate and a survivor of the Christian patriarchy movement, she serves on the editorial board for Tears of Eden, a nonprofit providing resources for survivors of spiritual abuse.

In Cait’s memoir Rift, she tells a harrowing story of chaos and control hidden beneath the facade of a happy family. Weaving together lyrical meditations on the geology of the places her family lived with her story of spiritual and emotional manipulation as a stay-at-home daughter, Cait creates a stirring portrait of one young woman’s growing awareness that she is experiencing abuse. With the ground shifting beneath her feet, Cait mustered the courage to break free from all she’d ever known and choose a future of her own making. 

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

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Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings:

I am so excited about today's guest. Kate West has a very special place in my heart. We met over the internet in the very early days of Tears of Eden, in the early days of the podcast Uncertain. She was the first person that I encountered outside of my family who'd Similar to the way that I had, who was talking about it openly in public, online, we have been friends and colleagues ever since then.

Her book is about that experience of growing up in the Christian patriarchy movement in the stay at home daughter movement. We'll talk a little bit about the dynamics of that. podcast before. So I'm going to link to some of those episodes in the show notes. She's also a member of Tears of Eden's editorial board.

and is responsible for a lot of the content that is on the Tears of [00:01:00] Yin blog, the website. Super grateful for her. Very grateful for her story. And here is my interview with Kate West.

katherine: Well, hello, Kate. Hello. How are you? I'm doing all right it is good to see you.

Cait: You too. And I think we both have sunny days. It seems like you have some sunshine in your room.

katherine: Yes. It's going to be, it's going to be a relatively warmer weekend. I think like 60s ish. How's weather where you are?

Cait: Yeah, I think it might get up to 60 today. And I want to, I want to get outside and start. Scraping around in the dirt and get my garden started, but we'll

katherine: see. Speaking of dirt, your book.

Cait: What a segue.

katherine: Your book is called Rift, and you have a metaphor throughout your book about geology. And the earth, you talk a lot about like the earth [00:02:00] and I'm not even going to try to like get into scientific things.

So talk to me about your book, which is the full title is rifts, a memoir of breaking away from Christian patriarchy. You have been on the podcast a couple of times before, so I'm going to link to some of those episodes in the show notes. But talk to me about the, the theme of this book and that metaphor, that geological earth metaphor that you use here.

Cait: If you've listened to other interviews, the other interviews, you'll know I grew up similar to you, like, as a stay at home daughter, Christian patriarchy movement, quiverful. And this book is a story of me growing up in that and not understanding the world I was living in until it started going wrong and how I figured out how to leave and my life afterwards.

And the idea of rifting comes from [00:03:00] this idea in, Well, there's this interesting thing that happens in geology where the earth splits apart and something like continents can be caused by rifts. You might think of like, there's this big rift in Africa where you can see the rift valley. And where I live in Michigan, rift, a rift started the great lakes.

That's, we're surrounded by water in Michigan. And that's, that's partly why I talk about rifting is because I'm surrounded by water and I'm fascinated by this idea of, Breaking away because when I left patriarchy, I, I wanted to start over, start with a clean slate and never have to think about my past again.

And so I wanted to break away, right? But, but I couldn't escape who I am and where I came from. No matter what I tried, it, it kept coming back. And I feel like that trauma is stored in your body and you just can't. Move on without healing from that. So the idea of a rift is both sides of it [00:04:00] are the same materials, you know, the same ground, but over time they change.

in separate ways. So I've, I've moved on from the Christian patriarchy movement. There's still part of me that is because of what happened to me, but I'm changing now and I'm separated from it in a way that allows me to grow. So that's just like a bigger metaphor I'm using throughout the book. It helps me to think bigger picture instead of focusing in on my own story all the time.

It's, it's kind of like a grounding practice.

katherine: Oh, for sure. And it's a perfect metaphor too, because the new space or the new geological formation, Comes from the old and it's still the same earth, but it's a, it's completely new thing. And it's perfect. And I've been thinking about that so much lately, because I think we all have this leaning of [00:05:00] like, of wanting to have a before and an after, and like, I went through this, but then I healed and now I'm better.

And here I am. And this, the reality is. We are impacted forever. Especially something as traumatic as what you went through as what I went through impacted our very identities impacted our bodies. We're never going to not have lived that story, but this. new formation and this new life that we create on the other side of it is, is also possible.

So it's not like it has to control the narrative of at all. That's perfect. I love it. I love it. I love it as a metaphor. Yeah. So just in case folks are not familiar with the Christian patriarchy. Would you mind talking about some of the key factors and, and feel free [00:06:00] to just share like how that showed up in your family as well.

Cait: Sure. I try to explain this in the beginning of the book because it's, I feel like, I relate to a lot of cult documentaries and cult vocabulary, but the Christian patriarchy movement isn't one singular church. It's this bigger movement. And there are churches within that, but they're across different denominations.

And what's really happening is each family is a cult. I know you've talked about that too, where the fathers are the cult leaders and. The mothers, the wives and the mothers are supposed to obey their husbands and all things and then the children under underneath that so It's this hierarchy But it's based on this literal interpretation of of the Bible at least a cherry picked version of that I would say a

katherine: version of the a version

Cait: And it's this it's really problematic [00:07:00] Belief system where men are on the top, women are beneath them and women essentially don't have any agency in this system.

And so you see it in a lot of churches. Some churches will actually say they're patriarchal and they're proud of it, but then other churches will be more subtle about it. And I consider something like complementarianism to be. a version of patriarchy. It's just more, more subtle, something like soft patriarchy.

So the bigger movement, I think we grew up like in the nineties where This was a big part of the homeschooling movement, quiverful ideology, having as many children as you can. So it's all tied together, I think, with that, and it's connected to evangelicalism. So it's very complicated. And people are still living this way, so

katherine: Yes, they are.

A lot of

Cait: churches who are patriarchal.

katherine: And I think the connection between the [00:08:00] extreme version of patriarchy that we grew up with and the evangelical version of patriarchy, I think a lot of folks don't want to acknowledge the connection. And, and I just, I mean, I worked in the evangelical church for almost a decade and they were so proud of how well they cared for women.

And the same things existed, they were just smiling more and weren't as overt about you're supposed to serve men. But, but that mentality was still embedded into it. And I, I sometimes feel like it can be more damaging when it's that subtle, because You're so confused and you're constantly being gaslit.

Yeah. And, and then you can't address it because they're constantly like, you know, but we do , right? We do really, we really care about [00:09:00] women. Yeah. And I think that the argument in the Christian Patriarchy movie is the same thing about caring about women because it's like, this is what's best for you. Like this is God's best.

For you, and we're doing this because this is God's best. Talk about how that dynamic showed up for you of, and just the, so it's your father giving you these rules. What is that extra layer that's added when he's doing it in God's name?

Cait: Right. There's secular patriarchy, right?

And so religious patriarchy takes that idea of men are in charge, men should be the leaders men should benefit from the way society is built, and it adds that level of divine blessing. It's almost like, Back in the day when kings said they were divinely appointed to be kings. So it's your father saying he's divinely appointed to be [00:10:00] the authoritarian leader in your life.

And, If for me, that meant if I disobeyed my dad, it was disobeying God, which meant I deserved eternal punishment in hell. So it's very fear based mentality, but when you believe that you take it very seriously. And so I think that's why it falls under spiritual abuse because you're, they're using God and this threat of, of divine punishment and, and to build, to hold up men with power.

In your life. And so there's, they're talking like they're talking for God, basically, and you're supposed to obey them no matter what. But when you realize that's not actually God's voice, it can be devastating to realize like it's all built on a lie.

katherine: it's a genius mechanism and every cult leader has used it because it works like [00:11:00] to just be able to say like, Oh, it's not me saying this.

Yeah. This is, this is the Lord. I'm just, I'm just following what God, God wants me to do. And the cult leaders will do that. They'll like reflect back onto the deity. And that's what makes it a cult, in my opinion, because. They, they have set themselves up as this divine leader, but in this way that I am special and I am chosen by the Lord, you know, and, and you can't question it.

Cait: Right. And it's like, it's so violating for your, your spiritual life because growing up I really wanted to follow God. I wanted to, I, I was taught that God was loving and that I should. Church. You know, like I belonged and so I really was committed to that. So when the men in my life were using that [00:12:00] against me to keep me under control and to keep me from making choices about my life, especially as I became an adult, it, it was really disruptive to how I even viewed the world.

katherine: Yeah. Cause it's everything.

Cait: Yeah.

katherine: And, and. And I just think of like, how much our identity was rooted in our gender. And like, how, just when you discover gender is a theory. Wait a second. And human beings. We're really not, there's some, you know, normalized like biological differences, but in general, like there's, there's not a lot of difference.

And when you realize how deeply embedded this lie is, and yet it was so much a part of our identity, it's so disrupting. And I think [00:13:00] that that's something that a lot of people can't. Understand and we can we can experience validation on the other side of it of like, well, why did you believe that? Like, that's stupid.

That's dumb. Talk to me a little bit about that. And how do you experience that invalidation from folks once you got out of https: otter. ai Well, why did you stay? And cause you were 20, 26.

Cait: I was 25

katherine: when I left 25 when you left. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about some of the invalidation that you have experienced.

Cait: Well, I, I avoided talking about it at all for a long time. And I remember the first time I shared a little bit of my story with a coworker. She didn't seem to get it, and then later I heard her talking about me like I was Amish. She was telling somebody that I grew up Amish, and I was like, no, but I didn't correct her, because it's like, well, they're kind of the same thing, it's just they look a little bit different externally.

you know, I knew [00:14:00] right away that, My experience was not the norm and that people wouldn't get it. And so I avoided talking about it a lot and I'm very much a book learner and. You know, being homeschooled, I had to teach myself a lot. So I feel like I studied. Outside culture when I left and try to fit in as best I could.

And I remember another job I was working at a community college and I shared something with a coworker there and he was so confused, like, well, then why are you acting so normal? Like, are you like, why do you speak English? Yeah. Like so confused that I like. was a normal human being. And I was like, I don't know what you, what you want from me.

katherine: What do you want

Cait: from me? Yeah. Cause I think people have this idea that you grow up and you're just like an alien, you know, if you believe extreme, what other [00:15:00] people believe are extreme ideologies. But for us, it wasn't extreme. It was normal. And I just didn't have anything to compare it to. So that was just the way I grew up.

And I. Now that I've left, I don't know if there is like a normal way to grow up. I think people go through a lot of hard times. Yeah,

katherine: absolutely. And people

Cait: believe a lot of, to me, seem like they're strange beliefs. You know, I think a lot of people believe things. It's just a matter of like how committed you are to it and how willing you are to put relationships above your beliefs, which didn't happen in my family.

So

katherine: meaning that you're the beliefs came first,

Cait: right? Like doctrine was more important than people. And I think that's when you get into these cult like environments is when the beliefs are more important. The doctrine is more important. It doesn't matter who's being harmed, especially when you can say, Oh, this is love, even though you're being, I hate that because it's like, [00:16:00] You know, it, it messes with your head when you, when someone's telling you, they love you and this is love and I'm hitting you because I love you.

And then it's just abuse. You just don't have the word for that.

katherine: Yeah. And I think that that's helpful just for wider abuse situations is, this is getting more complex and stuff, but like. This is not presented to people as abuse, like, like nobody, like the leaders and our fathers are not coming at us like I'm here to abuse you.

They are, they are presenting it as love and doing what is right and doing what God wants you to do. And then. If we have any feeling of like, I don't like this, or I don't want this to happen, or I don't like this direction, then we instantly. Self gaslight self and validate because it must [00:17:00] be my problem at must be me not devoted enough to God, or not trusting my father that he actually loves me.

What were some things that I don't want, I want people to read your book, but give me maybe one or two things that caused you to wake up and say something isn't okay here. Like, yeah. And start that process.

Cait: Yeah. And I think it kind of ties into what we were talking about before of, of like the outside world and how they perceive you.

So I, I found that people on the outside thought that I had chosen this life. You know, versus I'd grown up in it. And I think a lot of people in cults. Or high control groups, they might choose initially to join, but then they become so limited in their choices that it's not really true consent anymore.

So I think that's a big misunderstanding. So one of the [00:18:00] biggest things that happened to me, it sounds like such a small thing, but a couple people when I was in, you know, my early twenties, they asked me if I was okay with this life and if this was my choice. And. One of them was my sister in law, my brother had left years earlier, and another person, and they didn't realize how much that affected me because, of course, I had my answers, like, Oh, yes, this is my choice, and I'm gonna be a wife and mother someday.

I don't need to go to college. I don't need to have a job. So I had the script that I could say, But just them asking my opinion and what I wanted, nobody had ever asked me that before, because it didn't matter what I wanted and my choices didn't matter. So, so they didn't have to do a whole lot to get me to think for myself.

It was just a, just a simple question of, well, what do you think? And I was like, well, nobody, nobody cares about what I think. [00:19:00] And

katherine: that

Cait: was really impactful for me. So that's, that's one part. Of me like mentally trying to leave another part in the story is when I have this long courtship and my father puts an end to it.

I'm feeling heartbroken. And then I am punished because I have too many. I feel love for this person that I thought I was going to marry and. In my father's opinion, that's emotional impurity. And so I've basically cheated on my future spouse by loving this other man. And I have to repent and, you know, turn back to the right path.

And I just knew that I just knew in that moment, like, this is wrong. This can't be true because. How could me loving someone be wrong

katherine: or

Cait: sinful or deserve God's wrath? And so I just didn't believe it at that moment. I was like, [00:20:00] that's not true. And I kept that to myself. Well, I actually think I did say something to my dad, like, how can that be wrong?

That didn't go over very well, but

katherine: Oh my goodness.

Cait: It took me four more years to leave, you know, so, but, Okay. Those were big moments for me to shift my thinking and start thinking for myself, start making plans and realizing I might be able to choose something different in the future.

katherine: Mm hmm. I think that's why I enjoy talking to you, like, whenever we get to spend time with each other and talk about our families.

It's just such a It's so soothing and like such a relief to talk to you because I'll tell, I'll tell the story to other people. And there's, there could be fun. I have a group of friends where like, I'll talk about it and we'll just like laugh about it and just be like, Oh my gosh, I'll just like, make fun, make fun of it.

But I think that. Just talking to you, you get how [00:21:00] complex it is. And like, everyone is like, well, I wouldn't put up with that. And I would just, you know, flip the middle finger and I would be done with it. And like all of the layers that are, that are present, not just that emotional layer and that trauma bond and that betrayal bond that exists, but then the Economic layer too, of not having a college degree, not being able to have a career, not having we had skills, like we knew how to do things, but we didn't know how to write resumes.

We didn't know how to, you know interview, we didn't know how to apply for a job, you know, like gratefully we had like, You know, drivers license and social security numbers, but there are plenty of people who don't even have that. And yeah, you know, wives whose have their husbands have their passports locked away in a safe.

And, you know, just like all of these dynamics that, [00:22:00] like, You're you're traumatized and you're in the survival state and you're trying to figure out how to escape with all of these things against you. Like four years is a long time, but it's also like, that's how long it takes to just kind of figure out like what to do, where to go, especially when you and I were both raised in this, like to even have, we don't have a baseline.

to go to. We're having to like create our own baseline with nothing.

Cait: Yeah. And I was so, I was so angry at my younger self for not leaving, like years later in my thirties. Now I've found myself just feeling really pissed at her. Like, why don't you just like give yourself a chance? Cause I lost so much of my, well, I lost my entire adolescence and my most of my twenties to this.

And so [00:23:00] I felt a lot of anger. But then, you know, processing that, feeling all my feelings, you know, what we're supposed to do, and then realizing, all the feelings. I feel all the feelings. And trying to learn to have compassion for her. And I, I do feel differently now. I've shifted to feeling more compassion because she didn't have a lot of options.

It was very unsafe to do anything outside of the rules.

katherine: And

Cait: she didn't know, she didn't have any practice doing that. So

katherine: you

Cait: know, it's, when people are going through this, it's, there's a lot of shame, I think, that we can feel when we don't leave right away or we, you know, we go through stuff and we don't stand up for ourselves.

We can feel a lot of shame afterwards, but I think it's, it's important to not blame ourselves for abuse. That's just, you know, it's not our fault.

katherine: It's not. Yeah. I think one of the thoughts that I had a lot was like, why did I let him do that to me? Like, why did I, what? And it was, [00:24:00] it's just like, I mean, I know I'm just like looking at it, you know, from a distance, like I didn't let him, like, I didn't know that there were, you know, like, like you're, you don't really have any agency and any choice and it's not safe to like fight back or talk back.

And, you know, it's just. It's that reality and it's such a survival mechanism, such a common trauma response to feel that way, because we're, we're trying to create a narrative where we had some control. So then we don't have that same situation happened to us again, and we can avoid it. And, and, and it's, it's difficult to grasp.

That someone, especially in a dynamic like ours, where it was family and it was our father, you know, like to grasp that someone would just mistreat us and to just let all of that be on [00:25:00] them and recognize we did nothing to deserve this treatment and That's so much easier said than done. It is, it's a part of the process of getting to that place where we can let all of that responsibility lay at the foot of the abusers and not carry that and recognize ways that we did fight back.

And that's my next question for you. What are ways that you see now that you did fight back while you were in it?

Cait: I was very good rule follower for most of my childhood. I have older, I had two older siblings. And so watching them get punished, I was like, I'm not going to do that. And so I learned really early on how to get on my dad's good side which sounds manipulative, but really it was just safety coping mechanism.

katherine: Absolutely.

Cait: So, I felt like for most of my childhood, I didn't fight back at all. I [00:26:00] just felt really passive. But the one outlet for me was reading. And for some reason, books seemed non threatening to my, my father, like movies were. So books for some reason seemed mostly neutral to him. So I could go to the library and read almost anything.

I was very good at self policing. I would throw books in the trash if I thought they didn't follow the rules. And I hate that I did that. I hate that I did that. But I still read them. I just felt guilty afterwards. But I remember in my 20s reading a few young adult novels. And like, it just felt like this anthropology, like, class and like the young adult, like, what is a teenager like?

Let me investigate this. What,

katherine: what

Cait: is this

katherine: specimen?

Cait: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, I couldn't relate to what they were doing in the stories, but I could relate to how they felt. And I think I didn't throw those ones [00:27:00] away. I hid them. And I mean, I was in my 20s. I shouldn't have had to hide any books. I know.

katherine: Yeah.

Cait: Things like that, where I was like, I'm going to find this information for myself and not tell anybody. That, that was resistance in a way. It wasn't standing up to my father. I didn't stand up to my father until I realized he was sabotaging every chance at A marriage that I had, and I talk about a few of them in the book, but there was like at least four potential relationships that he shut down.

And the last one is the person I, I married, I'm still married to, and I knew from the previous relationships that I didn't want him to ruin my, the rest of my life, and I was falling in love with this person and didn't want to give up. So that was my big, big deal. My big leap of resistance was saying, I get to love who I love and I'm going to fight for that relationship.

And so that was the big [00:28:00] catalyst for me to leave.

katherine: Yeah. How do you make sense of the fact that like you're being raised to get married and I have the same experience, like in my family of just like we're being raised conditioned incubated to be wives. Yet, it just seems like my father didn't actually want us to get married, like you made it so hard and like any guys that.

You know, tried to do the things they could never get it right. And it was just awful, awful, awful explosions every time. And it was like, do you actually want us to get married? How do you make sense of that? Like watching that happen?

Cait: Yeah. I mean, I just, I can speculate. I don't know. Like I, I've, I can speculate that my father really loves to control.

And it's interesting [00:29:00] because he let my sister get married. Well, she, he found somebody who's just like him for my sister to get married to. And so that went off, you know, she was able to get married and she's divorced now. So she's been through a whole journey of, of coming out that direction. But for me, I don't know if he like, I always, my family always said I was his favorite, which bothers me now.

And I think I was just really good at conforming. And so I don't know if he wanted to let go of his control over me. Like it was really difficult to do anything. And I'm not sure if he would have felt like such a strong person. Like I was for a time, I was the only kid living in the house because my brother had gone to live with the pastor.

It's a whole nother story. With trying to get men to be like leaders, you know, when they go live with your pastor. So I was the only, I was the only kid left, right? So maybe he just didn't want to let go of me. [00:30:00] And who would his, what would his identity be without children to rule over? I don't know. So that's, that's the speculation I have.

But nobody, nobody could was perfect enough. And also I wasn't attracted to people like him. I think

katherine: I

Cait: didn't want to marry somebody who was narcissistic.

katherine: That was part of it. Yeah. If I remember correctly, was your older sister kind of, In quotes, rebellious and like the marriage kind of tamed was like meant to tame her.

Is that kind of like the dynamic that happened there?

Cait: Yeah, she almost eloped with somebody and decided at the last minute not to do that and came home and was like repentant. And then like a year or so later, my dad helped find a husband for her and You know, I, I don't know if she really had a true choice in that relationship.

So it was really, it's really tragic to me to remember those times. [00:31:00] Yeah. Being confused, thinking that she was choosing it. But knowing now that we didn't have many choices at all.

katherine: Right. And,

Cait: yeah, but now seeing her come through that and being a single mom and working and, you know, she owns land now, it's, it's beautiful to see her come into herself now.

katherine: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The whole control thing around marriage when like, you're being like conditioned for that, but then they sabotage it every turn or, and I, I remember thinking that logically about like, my father like wants me to marry someone like him and similar to you.

That's not gonna work for me. But at the same time, being aware that anyone that was like him, they just massively butted heads. And so it's like, it's not gonna work because someone like him will fight back, you know, like, won't, won't. Won't be the pleasing, compliant, [00:32:00] sit at his feet, learn from him, you know, like, it's like, pick, pick, pick a team, like, which one do you want?

And that, I mean, I think that's a characteristic of both of our upbringings and any cult like setting, high control fundamentalist setting is. Illogic and confusion are everywhere and as like certain as they want it to be and, you know, right and orthodox as they claim that it is. There's so much confusion and just different like speaking out of different sides of the mouth and all really boils down to is that key leader gets to decide.

Cait: Yeah, like the purity culture. The purity culture, like, leads it to everything. So, you know, everything has to be perfect. I grew up, like, really Calvinist. So, like, all your actions have to be perfect. And so, I think that's part of it. Like, you can never find a [00:33:00] suitable husband that was absolutely perfect for me.

Because there's always a flaw that he would find. And I, we live very isolated. So, I imagine if I lived back where I had grown up in Colorado, it would have been a little easier for him to find a husband for me. That would have fit his description, but we lived pretty isolated after at that point. So I don't think anybody measured up to his perfect standard.

katherine: Yeah, he couldn't go on a nation tour to find the perfect husbands. Oh my gosh, it's just like so weird.

Cait: Or writing the letters. He didn't do that. I refused to let him write letters.

katherine: Oh, to, like, seek a husband for you. Yeah,

Cait: because in the book I talk about that one woman who lived with us because she wanted to get married.

katherine: And your father, like, found someone.

Cait: Yeah, he wrote letters to every church in our district, you know, our presbytery, and found somebody. And I was like, that's [00:34:00] not, I do not want you to do that for me. I would be mortified.

katherine: Male order husband. No, not okay. Not okay. Not okay. Were you like expressing like desperation and like wanting to get married?

No. No.

Cait: Yeah. I, I've all my friends got married so young and I was like, I want to fall in love. I want to like travel the world. I didn't really, you know, I had those desires for romance, but not like must become wife and mother that, that really.

katherine: Yeah. I'm glad though. I think it probably saved you. Intrinsic, intrinsic desires, your desires, like what you really wanted actually helped save you.

Cait: Yeah.

katherine: Talk to me about writing and how that played a role has played a role in your journey.

Cait: I think writing has always been like, it's tied with reading books. I've always been away from me to escape. And so I always wanted to write a book. [00:35:00] And I think telling stories was always difficult for me because I didn't have a whole lot of data to write stories from.

But I was just, I just would want it to be a writer. And so when I finally left. I thought, I'm going to go to college and study how to write, you know, and actually learn how to do this. That became a way for me to express myself. You know, I had been, I'm a really quiet person, or at least I used to be.

And so writing is a way for me to use my voice without feeling panicked about being too loud. I don't feel that way anymore, but that's, you know, that's how I felt. And writing, I wanted to write fiction and My own story kept bleeding through everything and no matter what I was writing at school It ended up being about the way I was raised or what I had gone through and I was like dang it I don't want to write about that.

Like this is not important anymore and [00:36:00] That was incorrect and it needed to get written out Like I needed to get it out of my body and onto some paper and that's why I started writing my particular story And it was really freeing. when I started sharing some of it online, that's when I realized I'm not the only person who's gone through this.

That kind of set me off to this whole journey of writing my story publicly and connecting with people who grew up in this movement. And it's been really liberating. Really like, it feels like a lot, a lot of the time because telling our stories is really vulnerable, but I don't, I wouldn't change a thing.

Like, I feel stronger because I'm able to be authentic, you know, instead of trying to hide who I am.

katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel like this has kind of like gotten it out and that you are ready for [00:37:00] something new or do you feel like there's still more to come? story to tell.

Cait: I feel, I'm really great, really excited to write some fiction now.

I've been like playing around with some stories and I feel like I have some actual outside in the world experience to draw from and maybe something more interesting to say. And so, yeah, I feel liberated now that my story is done. It's out there. It can go do its work and I can write something else now.

So I'm excited to see what that's like. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get away from What I'm interested in like, which is psychology and like personal trauma and resilience and those kinds of themes. I don't know if I'll ever get away from that because that's just who I am, but I don't think I need to write my memoir again.

katherine: Yeah, it's done. I did it. Yeah, we good. What are your hopes and dreams for people reading your book?

Cait: My first, you know, when you're when you're trying to sell a book to a publisher, [00:38:00] they always ask you what your audience is. is and you have like different layers of audience. My number one audience has always been people who grew up like me or who are in domestic abuse situations or who have left those.

I want them to feel seen the way certain books have helped me feel seen because I'm a trans woman. To my knowledge, there's not a memoir out there about being a stay at home daughter or besides maybe the Duggar Girls books. So I think, I'm really hoping that people who grew up this way feel like they can see their own experience on the page and, and help them process, you know, because for me, writing it is a, is the way I process it.

And I'm hoping that people who love to read will, that will help them. And then. I hope that people who didn't grow up this way will have a little bit more understanding of how complex it is. You know, I've, I think some people might say, Oh, this isn't, isn't as extreme as like the book educated [00:39:00] where there's, you know, more physical violence.

But I want people to understand that that doesn't necessarily matter to how people can be harmed. I think

katherine: it's still

Cait: important and we shouldn't shut people down because they don't have physical injuries. I think this kind of abuse is damaging too. I hope it's, it opens that conversation up a little bit more because I think this is a pretty common experience.

katherine: Oh yeah, I think it's so common and I think I would say that's one thing I do appreciate your book is that the normal things that end up making a story sensational like violence or sexual abuse the, the, the level of it isn't there yet you are still able to show the damage. That it did to you and I think that's going to be so validating for so many people and just kind of flipping the narrative, you know, like people just [00:40:00] chase after those types of stories for the sensationalism, but there's a lot of damage that happens in.

The shadows and looks like Christianity looks like love, and you are able to express that really well in your book. So I hope folks, folks read it and tell, tell people where they can find it and tell people where they can find you.

Cait: Yeah. My website is Kate west. com. So I do have links for the book there as well as events I'm doing.

So Come find me where you live. Hopefully I come close to you and you can buy the book anywhere online. It's going to be. In bookstores as well. I know Barnes and Noble is stocking them in, in quite a few of their stores and then you can order them from your independent bookstore. You can ask for them at your library.

So you don't even have to spend money. You could just ask for a copy at your library. Do that

katherine: people! Support [00:41:00] the libraries and support Facebook.

Cait: Yeah, you don't have to support writers just by buying their books. You can get them at your libraries and that really does help because the libraries buy them and then other people can read them too.

And I'm also, there's a hardcover, an ebook and an audio book. So I got to read the audio. If you'd rather listen to me reading the story, you can do that too. So there's all the different formats as well.

katherine: Fantastic. Any other thoughts or any other things that you want to say?

Cait: I'd love to hear what you think about the book when you read it.

I hope there's a contact form on my page, on my website, and I'm on social media, so I'd love to hear what you think. Yeah. Just hit me up.

katherine: Fantastic. I will link to your website in the show notes. Thanks for coming on uncertain and for everybody who is listening and is part of tears of eating community.

Kate is also on the editorial board for tears of Eden. And so a lot of the content that shows up on our blog Kate [00:42:00] has. Generated and some foreign men has been been behind that. So we're super, super grateful for her. And I also realized just this morning that she shouted out to tears of Eden in her book.

And I was so excited. I sent her like a picture and heart eyes and a text because I was like, very excited that she shouted out to to tears of Eden. We're going to be famous now. It's a great resource. Well, thanks again, Kate, thanks for being here. Thank you.

Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

 I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

We’re talking about how one of the characteristics of a cult is that they often present as a really good thing. A lot of times, they are doing really good things on the surface. If this weren’t the case, people wouldn’t be joining them.

 Additionally, not every cult starts as a cult. Sometimes it starts as on organization with really good intentions to help people. We’ll discuss all of that, in this episode.

https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_edmondson_how_to_spot_a_cult

Sarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress who has starred in the CBS series Salvation and more than twelve films for the Hallmark Channel and Lifetime. She is also a well-established voice-over artist for popular series such as Transformers: Cybertron and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. In 2005, when NXIVM, a personal and professional development company, promised to provide the tools and insight Sarah needed to reach her potential, she was intrigued. Over her twelve-year tenure, she went from student to coach and eventually operated her own NXIVM center in Vancouver. Questions kept coming up about the organization’s rules and practices, which came to a head in 2017 when she accepted an invitation from her best friend to join DOS, a “secret sisterhood” within NXIVM.

In 2019, Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, with Kristine Gasbarre. In this tell-all memoir, she shares her story from the moment she takes her first seminar to her harrowing fight to get out. Her full story as a whistleblower is featured in the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM (downloaded over 25 million times) and The Vow, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM. Now with the launch of “A Little Bit Culty,” Sarah and her co-host/husband Anthony “Nippy” Ames are keeping the conversation going by discussing the healing process with the help of experts and fellow survivors.

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings:

Katherine: Well, hello, Sarah,

Sarah: how are you? I'm great. How are you

Katherine: doing? Okay. Do you know? Okay. It has been gloomy and St. Louis and today the first sign of sunshine and I like went outside to like be in the sun, but it was 30 degrees. And so I didn't stay there very long, but. It's beautiful today. Beautiful to see the sun.

How are, how's the weather in your area?

Sarah: I'm in Atlanta. We're in our very brief winter and it's, it's, it's just a couple of weeks, I think. And it really fluctuates on a day to day basis and I have no idea what's in store and I'm just getting used to that as a concept. Yeah.

Katherine: I just kind of ups and downs.

Yeah. Yes. I have relatives in the Atlanta area and I hear about the bipolar weather. Of yeah, very [00:02:00] similar to St. Louis fun times. Well, thank you so much for being here and your openness to telling your story here. Really excited to hear from you just about The impact of your experience in NXIVM and then your recovery process.

You also have your podcast, a little bit culty that I highly recommend to everyone. It's just entertaining. It's good stuff and you learn a lot, but then it's also super entertaining. And so I hope folks will listen to that as well, but you get to interact with a lot of cult survivors through that. And so I w I'm very interested to hear.

Just patterns and things that you have seen as you have been doing your podcast and working with folks in this, this area. But just to just start us, start us off for folks who may not know who you are or have not seen the vow or maybe haven't. About on HBO or the, or have listened to your podcast and you give us a little summary of who you are and why you are here.

Sarah: [00:03:00] Sure. So my cliff notes slash, you know, elevator story, which I've had to use a fair bit since moving to Atlanta is that I am, you know, from Canada, born and raised, I. I pursued acting as a teenager and young adult, and I took a little tangent, a little detour when I joined a personal and professional development program, which I was taking to help me with my goals as an actor and my relationship at the time.

And that was really wonderful in many ways for a long time at first. And it ended up being 12 years later, after many missed red flags, I didn't understand what I was looking at. A high control group or some, some people know this term as a cult, but I realized there's basically bad things going on behind closed doors and the personal development program that I'd been touting for many years as an advocate and as a recruiter for the company.

I say company loosely was really a front [00:04:00] for our pipeline, for the leadership. To coerce and manipulate and ultimately not in all cases and not not for me, but for many people sex traffic as well So that's why it is now known as the sex cult in the in the newsletter And I newsletter sorry in the newspapers The headlines media does love a good sensational story.

Sure do. Yes, as they sure do. And my role in that was that I was one of the whistleblowers that showed the physical abuse, which is the physical manifestation of emotional abuse, which had been going on for years in the form of branding. And I showed that on the New York times cover and that led to an investigation and the trial and eventual conviction of the leader.

Six week trial led to 120 year conviction of the leader. And that was I left six years ago. The trial was about four years ago and three years ago, two and a half years ago. My sense of time is a [00:05:00] little off. My husband and I were in a docuseries that, that documented this whole journey, how we got in and how we escaped on HBO max called the vow.

And that really propelled us into this really interesting space where, where we were now sharing something that a lot of people could relate to is like, Oh, I would've, I would've totally joined that. And that's flipped the script as a lot up until then. So many people we encountered, especially since leaving and shouting from the rooftops, we were in a cult you know, they were watching it going.

I could have, I could have fallen for that when that's very different when the past people would say I would never have fallen for that. And that's opened up a whole, you know, set of bizarre doors and opportunities for us as whistleblowers and survivors to speak about our experience. Educate people. And that's been like a phenomenally rewarding thing.

And ironically, and I didn't say this at the beginning, I, one of the reasons I joined next team as well was to help people. I was, you know, I really enjoyed that process and [00:06:00] now I get to do it for real on the other side and help educate, shine light, prevent, help people get out. If they're already in something, help people heal.

If they've already gotten out. All the different stages along the way and help families. And overall just bring awareness to this topic that is kind of become a lot more mainstream now. Narcissism, cultic abuse, gaslighting. It's much more accessible and people are more aware of it. So it's been an interesting time to be part of the zeitgeist in that way.

And and then now we have a podcast that emerged in COVID when we had stopped acting. So it's been a interesting, organic progression to be a podcaster as I wrote a book and also and now doing more speaking events and panels on the topic. So yeah, here we are. There we are. Yeah. Cliff notes.

Katherine: Yes. I remember watching the vow. I don't remember. I think it was in during COVID watching it and [00:07:00] had just left an abusive church. And that was cult cults like they're definitely very high control, very lot of, you know, stuff being hidden by religiosity and God speak and Jesus talk. And I, I, a lot of us.

who had left were like, have you seen The Vow? Have you guys been watching The Vow? Are you watching The Vow? Because The Vow is like very, very, very similar to what we just went through. And I think that that was the thing that stood out to me as well as how engaging it was. And it just I was like, that sounds like Christianity, like so much of so much of the, the attraction and the way that like the evangelizing that was happening and the way that people were getting brought into this thing that, that was presented as this very good thing.

And in some ways it seemed like it actually was a good thing. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that part of [00:08:00] it of like what attracted you to this. And like, what, what drew you in as a very professional human being?

Sarah: Yeah. You know what? There's every single group that we've ever talked to anyone about in our podcast.

There is always good stuff on the outside. And that's actually one of the first questions we ask people so that others can. See what some of those red flags are of like, you know, what's the catch with this perfect, shiny, amazing, happy community. Well, what, what drew me in was a number of things. And, and partly it was, you know, the age that I was.

Where I was, you know, doing this acting work and it wasn't really filling my soul. It wasn't filling my cup in terms of like, this is not the meaningful work that I want to be doing. And the thought of. Cause really they offered a lot of things. The community was presented almost in a way that would appeal to whatever the person wants.

And I later learned to do that for others. Like what, what is it that you're looking for? What I was looking for was a, [00:09:00] a community, a supportive, helpful community. I was looking for more meaning and purpose in my life being a, you know, Being in a Budweiser commercial wasn't like really that meaningful to me, even though it paid well, but it was like, this is not what I signed up for or what I wanted as an actor.

And I've always been into personal development. I've always believed that. And I still believe actually that you can work on yourself or be, you know, be better or like work through. And there was a term that they used. I don't think I was really using this term before was limiting beliefs. That there's beliefs that we have, and I actually do believe that we have still believe that we have limiting beliefs about ourselves.

Like

Katherine: something like, I can't do it. Like, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Just like, you know, even as an actor, like even thinking things, thinking something like, which was had at the time, like I always get nervous and auditions, there's some beliefs under that about myself that caused me to be nervous. [00:10:00] Which would limit me about, you know, without, with auditions, cause that's like a big part of being an actor.

So I really love the idea of working through my limiting beliefs, being, the best version of myself and, and striving to follow this model. And one of the things that appealed to me, I mean, I didn't like it at the beginning, but I eventually did like it after my first five day training, which is my first foray into Nexium is they offered this growth path in the form of.

Like a martial arts system with different levels and stripes and colors and I liked that. Like I, there was something about that that was measurable for me. If I do this, I'll go to the next level and that, that appealed to me because an actor, we don't have that either, like get the job or you don't, you don't really know why you do or you don't, and you could do all the right things, but not actually go to the next level.

So I liked the concept of being able to. Complete a task, work on a skill, and, and evolve. It was certainty. With certainty. Yeah, it was [00:11:00] certainty in a very uncertain world. Needless to say, I mean, it was all bullshit, but if it was what it was supposed to be, it would have been great.

Katherine: Yeah. And if it is, if it is something that like is actually delivering what it's promising, then it would be a really awesome. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so, so those were some of the good things that drew you in just to create some context for folks what were some of the, like, things that started alarms, that started going off that were like, Hmm, maybe this isn't what it, what it's promising.

Sarah: I mean, Honestly, there were, there were red flags right from the beginning, but I didn't know what I was looking at. If I had done, if I, if somebody invited me to something now that was. And with the education I have, I wouldn't have even signed the paperwork, let alone attended because I would have known, Oh, I'm feeling pressured and they're using a scarcity mentality in order to, you know, [00:12:00] like this is the only one.

And when, you know, when are you going to do this and when are you going to change your life? And any hesitation I had would be. Proof of how I was not ready to commit to my goals. Like it was a lot of manipulation tactics just getting me there. And then once I was there a lot of red flags in regards to what I now know as setting the stage for future abuse.

Even as simple as they said, like, you're going to feel uncomfortable and you're going to feel like you're going to, you're going to doubt that maybe even this is the right place for you to be. That internal dialogue is an indication of what they call the disintegration. So you're either integrated on a concept or disintegrated and any internal questioning was just a sign that you needed to work on something.

I know. So, if you agree to that, which I did. Because I'm, I'm assuming that these people who, I just never, I never projected bad intent because that's the thing is when you give yourself over to a higher power or a higher authority, [00:13:00] you're saying, you know, better than I do. And tell me, tell me what to do.

Tell me how to be. And I was, I was like, okay, well, I pay just paid like 20. 2, 100 is 2, 500 Canadian to spend five days in a room and I want to work on my issues. I am saying, I trust you. You got to tell me what you see and if what they're saying is different than how I feel, that's a problem.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and that's such a such an easy thing to happen and then it's presented as you're like to listen to someone else tell you and name you and tell you what you need to work on and listen to someone else outside of you is. Is held up as like a humble thing and like a character quality.

Yes. And if you were to resist and ask questions or say, I don't feel comfortable with

Sarah: this. And that's, Oh, then I'm also being defiant.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or selfish or, or you don't want to work on your issues or you don't really care

Sarah: about this. Yeah. I mean, they said that you should be able to ask [00:14:00] questions and put your hand up, but it was very clear when people did ask questions, you know, how they felt about that.

And also like it was, I learned very quickly that there were names for the feelings I was having that weren't good. So I was just suppress them. And I want also, I'm a good girl, I want to be a good girl, I want to get it right, I like the gold stars. Yeah. I like the validation.

Katherine: Absolutely. And there was a very clear like type of person that fit and you like, learned to

Sarah: fit.

Yes. I learned to fit and I wanted to get the, I wanted to go up the levels and I wanted to get the next stripe. And I learned to override the feelings because the other thing they said is like, you're here to work on your shit. You're here to work on your stuff. So. Yeah. You know, don't leave. We're just talking about these things.

If the sash around your neck, there was a sash systems for the martial arts ranks. If that bothers you, why can't you even talk about it in a room? Like we're just talking about it. So I should be able to talk about it. And so therefore don't leave. If I'm leaving, I'm just running away from my issues.

so [00:15:00] many double binds. We call them massive double.

Katherine: Yes, literally the phrase that popped into my head. Yes. Well, I, I want folks to be able to hear your whole story. And so I'll just plug your book, which is called scarred. Correct.

Sarah: Yes, thank you. And I don't know if you ever do giveaways on your podcast, but we can do that too.

Katherine: Let's do it. Why not? Yeah, I haven't done one of those in a long time. Let's do it. And then a little bit culty, and then also the vow on HBO, or not HBO on max. So those are places that folks can get more. About your story and actually get your get your full story and all the details about that.

And so I want to step into talking about the impact of this. And if you want to talk about the impact like while you were in it and like what, what this coercive control manipulation was doing to you while you were in it. And then very specifically after after you left, like how was so I'm going to ask you to tell us a little [00:16:00] bit about how you experienced this, this trauma showing up for you and what, what did this experience do to you?

And if you want to also share some examples of just similar patterns you've seen in folks that you have been interviewing on your podcast as well. Yeah, just paint us a picture of what happens after this experience.

Sarah: After leaving? Yes. I mean, there was many different stages, I would say, like I've been out for six years and there was a lot of just grief, like I was, I had a massive PTSD reaction or potentially CPTSD just from the sort of ongoing abuse, but I, in many ways, I was like kind of the, one of the least Can I swear on this podcast?

I was one of the least fucked with because, because I was a recruiter and I brought so many people in many ways, they kind of left me alone. I, I had, I was in Vancouver. I was running, I had been running my center. Which is sort of like a. You know, a separate, like, it's sort of like a franchise. Like I had my, I had [00:17:00] my center and I was using the tools and the parts of the program that were good and that I liked.

And I, you know, brought people in that were going up the pipeline to the leadership. So they kind of left me alone, but I, so I didn't have the same amount of. 100 percent commitment. Like I'd never moved to Albany. I'd never moved and given up my whole life. And I always had my foot in reality. In other words, like my foot outside of the compound, it wasn't an actual compound, but some people gave up everything to be there, you know?

And so that kept me in many ways, it protected me and gave me a soft place to land. There's a lot of people I could go to and that I always knew that we. Were you know, people thought that we were in a cult. I, I knew that. And I, and I thought that they just didn't understand. Mm-Hmm. , right. I just, I was like, oh, they don't get it.

And for, for the first couple of weeks. And, you know, I was just going through those people and being like, okay, you were right. And I'm sorry. And I'm really kind of fucked up right [00:18:00] now. Shouting from the rooftop and like doing all the stuff that we did to get the media attention and things like that so there was like different stages of first I was on this yeah rampage of like I got to take this thing down and I felt like I was one of the There's a few of us that were at the forefront of that and I think in many ways It was the ones that of us that could whereas other people were so had been so head fucked and so gaslit and so manipulated that they were like, you know, literally in bed depressed Couldn't move or, or just had to shut down and like pretend it never happened and move cities and like not even deal with it, which people dealt with it in different ways.

My dealing with it was because I've been so public and so such a vouching you know, zealot. I was like a fundamentalist personal growth junkie. Yeah. This is the way, this is the only way, red flag, to person to, you know, to grow and to reach enlightenment or whatever. Like. And so then on the other side, I had to be just as loud.

So that was like one big stage, and I spent [00:19:00] like a long time just on the phone with people, trying to de enroll them, trying to explain like, yes, I was branded, and no, I didn't consent, and no, I didn't know it was Keith's initials, and like, trying to show them that it was bad. And for the people who are real diehards, there's some people who still don't think that was bad.

Because they've, they've so committed their lives to this path. They're so bought in and to look now and go like, Oh, maybe this isn't good is just too hard for them. Like they're just, yeah, it's

Katherine: just too much given to it and it's

Sarah: just, yeah, it's easier to go. No, this was good. You know, Keith may have. I've heard them say you know, this is, maybe he's not conventional, but he always, he's a good person.

Like they, they can't even fathom that maybe he's a bad person. So. That was one of the stages also was like just really

coming to terms with like I lost so many of my of my good friends and I and I and I lost them [00:20:00] quickly. I lost them overnight. So that was a big part of it. Like leaving my community again because I had some community and friends outside of it. I think that was partly what saved me. I, you know, I hadn't burnt all my bridges, I'd burnt many bridges, for sure, but not all of them.

Thankfully there were some friendships I never touched, I never tried to recruit, even though I did try to recruit many people. So I'd say all of, you know, that was a big stage. And then and then I got pregnant. I got pregnant with my second child a couple years after we got out as I was writing a book.

And that was, I was, I was really working through and like having a big catharsis with that process. And having to also say no to, like, I was at that time I was going to do a Tedx talk and I was going to do a bunch of things. I was like, that's gonna be too stressful. And I want to like create a safe, loving incubator for my baby.

And that kind of forced me to block out a lot of the stuff that I've been doing. There was like a sort of an ongoing campaign still to [00:21:00] expose and destroy and I mean, by say destroy, like, Make sure that nobody else was recruited into NXIVM and those things happen. Like NXIVM itself does no longer exist.

There's no company. Are there people who still believe Keith is good? Yes. So I, that's part of the reason why I'm still talking because I want to get everybody out. . And then, and then, and then I'd say that like, I'm most, I think it's a lifelong healing journey, but there's a lot of things that I've done over the years that have really propelled me to another level of healing and yeah, having kids being kind of forced to stay present and not be in that war, that campaign pulled me to another stage.

And then there's just lots of things I do for self care that I wasn't kind of, I wasn't allowed to do. It just wasn't a lot of time for it. Purpose probably. Yeah. On purpose. Yeah. And just like family time and being able to change my schedule and do things like You know, go to the farmer's markets on the [00:22:00] weekend and the old days when in the cult days that like there was never a free weekend, there was never every weekend if there was a free weekend where there wasn't a training and be like, Who should we fly out from the mothership to like, do a coach summit or, you know, oh, there's nothing happening.

Let's organize a, you know, nationwide or citywide barbecue and like, it'll be a great enrollment opportunity. Like every weekend there was something going on with the You know, with my center and you know, three nights a week as well, Monday and Wednesday. And anyways, it was like always just go, go, go, go, go.

So to be able to get my, you know, reclaim my time and, and like clear my schedule, which I think anyone is in any kind of group doesn't realize until they get out of something and they clear their schedule. They're like, wow, there's so much time devoted to this thing. Right.

Katherine: Absolutely. And then probably like a reward for that time commitment is always more and always more and always pushing and, and, and to some extent that's just like wired into our our society.

So when we get into a group that's like that, that just [00:23:00] feels so, so normal. It's like, that's just what you do in this group. I remember being in the, the abusive church and like. It was going through a lot and a lot of people were leaving and there would be these like events that we would have every year.

And there were a few times where we were like looking around and we're like, we've lost staff. We are exhausted. Can we just not do this event? Can we just Not do this this year, because we're so tired and the leadership was like, it was always like, you know, PR move like no we have to pretend like everything is fine and you have to present like a united front to the, to the, you know, congregation and like having to like, you know, just kind of power through these events, and there wasn't this like posture of like what's best.

For you and care. I mean, like want to like intentionally care for this community. That idea of like, no, we know what's best for you and we know what's best. And this is what what's best looks like and always moving and always pushing. [00:24:00] And yeah, just that, that's that environment that I think so many people can relate with, even like a work culture, you know, like, just like.

Work cultures can be like that too. And I think it's safe for us to say, well, then that's an unhealthy work culture. We're allowed to say that, like, we don't have to just say, this is just normal. This is just the way it is. Like, no, we can say that's toxic. Like that's not a, not a helpful environment.

 Did you have any else thing else you wanted to say just about Impact on you, the CPTSD, PTSD, like how is that showing up for you?

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, again, different stages. There was a time at the beginning where I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I lost a ton of weight. I was just like, I was, Nippy called it sniper mode.

We were just so hypervigilant. Yeah. I didn't know if we were being, you know, like, you know, spied on, if they were coming to get us. We just, yeah, we were a mess. That didn't last too, too long in the scheme of things, but I'm still a little [00:25:00] jumpy. Yeah. Like if, you know, it's so funny. I just said that my husband just made a loud nose in the kitchen and I was like, what was that?

Like, you know, I've been broken into. So, you know, things like that. My trust in humanity is definitely restored. Like, it's amazing how, when we stepped away from that. That world, all these incredible people sort of showed up and you'd think maybe I wouldn't trust them right away. But I was like, I, I felt the difference to like a good versus, I wouldn't say bad person, but like, you know, I just, some, some angels showed up and kind of swooped us up and took really good care of us, especially the people that made the vow.

Like that was a really wonderful experience and that impact of doing the vow. You know, that could have, that could have gone so many different ways. Like that could have, that could have been a shit show for us. And it wasn't. And like you said, you're, you and your friends were listening and watching going, have you seen the vow?

I can tell you, I still get messages from people in all different groups and relationships, mostly things like different [00:26:00] religious offshoots or like particularly closed communities or like the Jehovah's witnesses, a ton of Mormons message, the Mormons especially were like, Oh my goodness, we were in lockdown watching tiger King.

And then we were watching the vow and they're like, Holy shit, we're, you know, in a really not good situation. So that, that continues to be very rewarding for me. And, you know, I think that if had there not been so many silver linings from this experience. You know, I don't know if I would have like recovered like I, it was, it was such a, I didn't mention this before the betrayal, the betrayal wound is one of my, one of the things in my, my therapist, I call it therapist Dan Shaw helped me with and who's a, who's a narcissist expert really helped me see is that when you're people that you trust betray you on that level, it can be a wound that is, takes a while to heal.

And these were like. People I considered family who knew what Keith was up to and they were lying to us. And that's something that I never, you know, [00:27:00] and I always say we underestimated people's capacity to lie. We just totally took things at face value. Oh, Keith is celibate. Oh, okay, cool. He doesn't need sex.

Great. What are all these women around him? Oh, that's part of his team. Like, okay. mean, it's so obvious and I feel probably like I was very naive. Now, but,

Katherine: and, yeah, I'm a trusting person, go into relationships thinking, oh, they're lying to me. Yeah. Most

Sarah: people don't. Yeah. But I do, what I do know now, and I see in almost every group, there's some term for it, which is basically like in a group like ours and every, every group we've looked at, there's this sort of.

Belief that it's okay to lie for the greater good, and it's okay to lie to protect the leader. Or, you know, for, there's some other greater reason it's okay to say, you know, no, we're not doing X, Y, and Z if it means to, to print like. The big picture. It's okay. The ends justify the means.

Katherine: Yeah, that ends justify the mean things.

Means [00:28:00] thing. You said that people came in like as you were leaving and kind of supported you and you said it felt different. Can you describe what that different feeling was?

 I mean, there was just no manipulation. Like I remember once having a conversation with, it wasn't even my therapist, just somebody who's a, who was a family friend who was a therapist. And I had shared briefly sort of what had happened and his first response was, wow, that sounds like.

Sarah: That sounds really horrible. It sounds really hard. Mm-Hmm. And, and then I was like, whoa. Because in nex Im, if I shared, shared something that bad that had happened, the an the question would be, you know, well, how did you cause that? Mm-Hmm. , and you know, what, you know, or, or, or, how did you author that? Or, what's your responsibility in it?

Mm-Hmm. . Or what's missing in you that you felt like you needed to create that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So all that kind of bullshit was, really upsetting.

Katherine: It sounds like they believed

Sarah: [00:29:00] you. Yeah, they believed me. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing. And also, I had a lot of moments like that where I was like, whoa.

That other way was actually really bad. And I had no idea how toxic it was until I was No longer dealt with that way.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And in the church world, it's called the, the, the reverse of that is like, well, what's your responsibility or, you know, why don't you give, or you're being bitter or you're angry or whatever.

And then, and then they'll call that accountability and character development and, and it's framed as this like good thing. When it's just. Invalidation and bypassing.

Sarah: Yeah, I definitely see that in almost every religion is that people are shamed into like to not express a concern because then they're then they're complaining or they're stinking thinking or it's negative or whatever.

So they learn to not say it so there's no there's no place to bring forward a concern. And that's a that's a really that's a [00:30:00] really, you know, great protective mechanism for somebody who's a. Cult a hole. Do you know what I mean? Like, or somebody who's just being a, you know wants to abuse power or do bad things if there's no place for the people around them to, to question it or say, you know, is this good or is this bad?

Then that's, that makes the, the clo we call it the closed loop system, right?

Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And all of the accountability is like outward towards everyone else, but then that like, yeah. Leader or leadership doesn't, it doesn't, they don't play by the same rules,

Sarah: like, right. Well, that, and that was something also that I saw as a consistent thing is that all of the dogma and, and, you know, there's like a lot of great truth to taking responsibility for things that happen in your life and that's, it can be a good thing, but if it's always.

It's always your fault. And the other person didn't have any responsibility. Then, and that's, that's something I say all the time. Wait, especially in XM. There's no victims and you create everything in your life. Now, Keith is in jail. And he's the [00:31:00] victim. Like he's the victim of the like, Oh, the FBI plan. Oh, the FBI must have planted evidence.

Oh, but, but Keith, how did you cause this? How did you get yourself into jail? Like, where is that? Where is it now? Where is it now? You know, and that, that's, that's such a huge inconsistency and inconsistencies are something that if you, you know, you bring up then you're. Not trusting the process or in the yoga communities, like you have resistance.

What's with your resistance?

Katherine: Oh my goodness. Wow. Yeah. Like the inconsistency thing in the as a, as a red flag is, is something that's It seems to happen a lot. And these groups, there's a, there's a double standard where there's between two different people or it's between the leadership and everyone else or whatever.

That double standard inconsistency is definitely something that pops up I would love to hear from you just a little bit about. Recovery has been like, [00:32:00] and what are things that have helped you?

Sarah: Again, different stages. I think the biggest part of my recovery at first was just talking about it and being with other X members and being able to speak freely without the shackles of the language constraints to be able to say, Oh, Oh, remember that time when so and so did this.

That was a really mean thing to do. We never could have talked that way because that would have been. You know, breaking rank and, you know, all sorts of rules, broken images, expressing that way. And I didn't realize how suppressed I was. I couldn't go up line in my, in the authoritarian, you know, thing because they didn't get in trouble.

And if I went down, that's bad leadership. So I was kind of like, you know, hogtied. I could talk to my husband, which is, I think, kind of a rare situation. And most people in my situation, we just couldn't talk to anybody. And also Mark Vicente, who was the person who brought me in. If you've seen The Vow, he's the director that.

That brought me in, but also got me out. So speaking about it, and then you know, Reclaiming my time educating [00:33:00] myself. I did a lot of watching of other documentaries and podcasts and movies and all sorts of things that really helped me connect the dots. And I have notes from my early days of watching movies like going clear and Scientology or holy hell about Buddhafield and just seeing.

Like, holy shit. This is the, it's, it's the exact same. Like really even in our podcast, every time we interview someone, it's like the, it's the exact same template. Yeah. I mean, some of the content, yeah, some of the content points. It always the same school and learned. We did the same school, even like with holy hell, the leaders doing this, forced ballet classes and with us it was volleyball.

But it's the same kind of like obsession with this one thing. Physical, yeah. Just yes. And like, you got to get this thing right, but the performance and the adulation of the leader and all that stuff. So that was really helpful. And then there's a lot of things that I've done, I guess. So therapy wise at different stages, having an actual cult therapist was really helpful for me.

And I saved a lot of time there because not only did he understand the dynamics, but he actually already knew [00:34:00] Nexium, which was great. So if I said, well, Nancy did this to me once, or Keith said this to me or whatever, he knew what I was talking about. Having a psychologist that didn't have cult training was laborious, but also really helpful because I would have to explain things that, that I realized, like, as, as explaining it, I was out of deprogramming myself.

You know, in one particular moment I was saying to him, Oh, well, in our, in our belief system, we. Believed that needs were like survival based, you know, air, shelter, water, whatever. And anything else was considered a desire and therefore a non integrated fixation. You need to work on like, why did you think you needed this thing to be okay?

Love, connection, community, blah, blah, blah. So then he, I remember, cause he didn't know anything about cults and he was like, well, those are needs to survive. But what about needs to thrive? And I was like, Oh, they didn't want us to thrive. And I always thought that the people in Albany who live there look fricking miserable.

And I was like, [00:35:00] that's why they were miserable. They weren't allowed to have a career or relationship because then they were, they were shamed into like, that that was just a deficiency based desire. In other words, there's something wrong with you that you're even searching. Like, why do you even need that from the outside world to be complete?

So that was you know, an interesting process to have a you know, a cult. A therapist and then a regular therapist, but I think a lot of my therapy came from just talking and educating myself and talking to other survivors. And then there's a whole series of things that I've done and continue to do.

Like I'm, I do yoga, but I do like a not culty yoga. Like there's no dogma. There's no education. There's no leader. There's no, it's just more of like a fitness thing. Because that's how I protect myself, like I don't do kundalini or, yeah, like that. I walk a lot, you know, after this podcast, I will walk and, and like, clear my mind.

Some like sort of spiritual, somebody, some might say woo woo practices that I do, but there's no It's not, it's not like a [00:36:00] tied to a certain school or program. It's just like a little practice here, a little practice there. I take my green juice. I'm very health oriented. I'm all about like getting good sleep and all the things that we weren't allowed.

Like I remember when I started Nexium, I was They would say I have, I would have had an attachment to comfort because I was like, I'm getting my eight hours. And they're like, well, why do you think you need eight hours? And I'm like, well, that's just what, how I function best. And I'm like, why do you think that would if it's a limiting belief?

And by the end of it, I was having like four or five hours of sleep a night to prove to them how much sleep I didn't need and how I could be like such a bad ass, you know, but really I do need, like I, I do best on as much sleep as I possibly can get. So prioritizing that and prioritizing what's right for me and not going with somebody else.

Going on what somebody else says is right for me has been also huge. A lot of baths. I take Epsom salt baths for my CPTSD almost every night. Putting a lot of money on hot water. I'm sure.

Katherine: Hey, it's very sensory and it like, yeah, it's you and [00:37:00] your body. It helps you be present. It's

Sarah: yes. Yes. And you could cut this out if you want, but I also microdose psilocybin a fair bit, which also does, does all of those things keeps me, my body has to be present.

I don't get, I'm not doing it to hallucinate or get high on mushrooms, but it just helps me not be anxious. Yes. So yeah, that's, that's kind of, those are my main, lots of variety. Yeah. Lots of variety. And oh, and hiking, I like love being in nature and that's like super important to me. I try to get out at least once a week.

Katherine: What would you say this is something that like is I think just like a constant question that a lot of folks have and something that I'm, I'm kind of exploring as well is like the difference between having someone help you like a therapist and like that language versus a guru who was like telling you what to do and like, what does it feel like to have that difference.

Or what does that difference feel like? [00:38:00]

Sarah: Yeah, I'd say that that like a healthy therapist feels like they're on a journey with me and they're just, , questioning and , it's like they're going down in the cave with me. We're both shining lights and we're looking together. Whereas the, the guru approach or, you know, like an axiom, I always felt like there was literally like a.

Such a power power difference. Like I'm sitting down here and they would be sitting up there like even the seats were raised and we're kind of looking up at and tell me what to do, like, what do you think and Reclaiming that has been definitely been a huge part of my healing.

Katherine: Yeah, so the guru is more like the expert Mm hmm or life telling you how to do it

Sarah: And I have to be so careful with that too, because I do love to give people unsolicited advice. You know, especially in our podcast. I do like to be

Katherine: like, that's not a good thing. Don't do this.

Sarah: And I'm like, you really need to be taking more baths.

Okay. I'm just kidding. But I'm like, well, what, how do I try to phrase it now? I was like, this is what's worked [00:39:00] for me. This is what works for me. And you can do whatever you want. I don't care.

Katherine: Yeah, no, I like the phraseology. I have to do the same thing. It's like, well, you know, I have that same situation and this is what I try.

Yeah. Do with that what you'll exactly. Yeah. And then that would be as opposed to someone who is like, partnering with you in this journey and, and just like being empathetic to the experience rather than telling Yes. That they know better what you need than you do. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I love that.

That's great. Any, any final things that you would like to share as we wrap up put all of your information in the show notes, but if you have any information that you want to give folks about how to interact with you,

Sarah: I mean, I'd say like if they want to know the full story, my book in combination with the vow, I think is a really good balance because the vow has my story, but also massive gaps in some things that happen.

But the vow [00:40:00] has a lot of other people's stories. And if you want to go down an axiom rabbit hole, there's tons of other memoirs out there. But I think that our podcast I've, I've been told is very therapeutic for people of all different groups, religions you know, even abuse situations because you're hearing the stories from different, different people's perspectives that.

You're not maybe necessarily as attached to like defending or being protective of your group, whatever that is. So when you hear when other people's stories, you're like, Oh yeah, I relate to that. And it can be, well, it's free. It's free therapy. So not that it's not in lieu of therapy. I'm not saying like, don't do therapy, but it's gonna be a bonus.

And I also say, like, there's some episodes that will resonate and some that won't. Just skip them. You don't have, you don't have to listen to all of them. If it's something that that, that is resonant for people, there's a, we're also on Patreon and we do a lot, we do another bonus episode every week.

And that's more casual. And we answer questions from the audience. We do voicemails. And we also have a Goodreads account. I recommend a lot of books [00:41:00] and I interview a lot of authors. So all of the books that we love are on our little bit culty Goodreads account. And I think the best way if you want to just reach out to me personally is on my Instagram.

I, I answer every message. A little bit culty is a little bit backlogged, but people can check us out there as well. And if they want to be a guest, a little bit culty, they can apply through our website. Oh, the one thing I would say also that's really cool, I think that I did recently is a TEDx talk.

I don't know if you had a chance to see it or hear it. Yeah. It's 15 minutes of like the summary of why people need to educate themselves about cults. It's very, it's like a lot. It's like some people call it the best of a little bit culty in a very short period of time. So it's a lot of quick nuggets.

Yeah. And I think, I think your community would like it.

Katherine: That sounds good. I might reach out to you. I might reach out to you later about that because a couple of years ago I had talked to someone about doing a TEDx talk about spiritual abuse and they kind of discouraged me from [00:42:00] it because it's supposed to be inspirational and it didn't, they're like,

Sarah: that's inspirational.

Well TEDx actually has some kind of like a little bit quality rules. Like you can't talk about politics or religion. Okay. It's in, it's in their rule book. But. So talking about spiritual abuse, I don't know how you would frame it in a different way. You have to frame it in a different way. Yeah. Go ahead and talk about spiritual bypassing and just not mention religion.

Ah,

Katherine: yeah, that's true. True, true, true. Cool. Well, thank you so much for giving us your time. I'm excited to just see what, see what develops. Thank you for all the work

Sarah: that you're doing. My absolute pleasure. It's, it's a total joy to talk about and I will continue to talk about it until everybody is out.

So everyone. Yes. Free the slaves.

Katherine: Free the slaves.

One of our Most Loved episodes from Season Three, exploring common misguided perspectives of anger and how befriending our anger can help us heal.

Dr. Laura Anderson is the cofounder of the Religious Trauma Institute, and founder of Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery she’s a licensed therapist, and professor of psychology. Instagram//Facebook: @drlauraeanderson

Support Groups https://www.tearsofeden.org/support-groups

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Listen to Trauma and Pop Culture: https://www.katherinespearing.com/trauma-and-pop-culture

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

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Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Get more info on Pop Culture and Trauma podcast on Instagram @katherinespearing

This episode is with Ashley Love Richards and Fallon Morey, cohosts of TSFU the Podcast

Katherine and Fallon play a game with Ashley asking her Christian Clichés to see if she knows what they mean. We also discuss the perspectives Catholics and protestants have of one another, the origin of Alcoholics Anonymous (spoiler, it’s Christian), and whether or not AA is a cult. This conversation is comical and fun—and borderline irreverent.

Shoot Christians Say YouTube Video is the video we watch in this episode! 

Katherine was interviewed in The New F Word Episode with TSFU. 

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings

Katherine: [00:00:00] I actually, hi, Fallon. Hi. These are my two friends that I just met through. That's a fucked up podcast, and we had a blast hanging out and, and, and interview doing an interview. I had a blast hanging out with them and doing an interview with them.

And so we decided to do this episode. Fallon grew up similar to me in

evangelicalism and Ashley did not. So we're going to play a game called Stuff Christians Say, where Fallon and I are going to introduce Christian sayings to Ashley and ask her what she thinks they mean. And this is a like Not a pass fail like no, like there's, there are no stakes here other than testing your Christian, your Christian knowledge before I, I'm going to play a video, a little video to, to get us warmed up, but before I do that.

Ashley and Fallon. I would love to hear what brings you here today. Ashley, go

Ashley: first. What's up, Kathryn? [00:01:00] Hey! Super excited to be here. So yeah, I have a podcast called that's so fucked up and it's about Colts and murder and other generally fucked up stuff.

Although I would say I primarily focus on Colts and coercive groups and I can high control groups. Obviously that's more where your podcast and your stories fit into. I saw Jesus camp 17 years ago when it came out in 2006. I saw a bunch of evangelical children being brainwashed at a camp to Take abortion out of the you know, take abortion rights away because a third of their fucking friends could have been there that night and they weren't.

And then I saw it 17 years later, like right after our abortion rights got taken away. And I was like, hold on, this is a long game. And then I saw shiny, happy [00:02:00] people and I've been obsessed with high control, coercive Christianity ever since. So I'm very excited to have met you through me and Fallon doing a segment called the new f word.

The f word was fundamentalism fundamentalism and Actually, it's really funny or it's actually really fun the episode that Catherine was on was called the new f word the C and F and E words Which sound like they're going to be really bad, but it was Christianity, nationalism, fundamentalism, and evangelicalism.

So, you know, really, I had a lot of fun. I thought that was fun.

Katherine: That was one of my funnest, my funnest or most fun. I don't know. Funnest, funnest episodes that I've ever, ever interviewed on. I had a great time with y'all.

Ashley: I wanted to make sure that we knew what the fuck we were talking about before we started [00:03:00] talking about it, because as you said, I have, I am not religious, I did not grow up with any religion, I have a Patreon segment where I learn about the Bible, it's called Ash Learns the Bible, because I knew about that one story, I think Solomon, where they try to cut the baby in half, and I was like, That is fucked up.

Is there other shit like that? Because I want to hear about it. So, basically, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Christianity has taken over my life somehow.

Katherine: That's an intellectual exercise.

Ashley: Yeah, not in That I'm involved with it, but I'm just fascinated and I'm fascinated

Katherine: when I meet people who didn't grow up the way that I did because it's so normal and it's so normalized and then as you mentioned on the episode that we did together that I will link in the show notes about How 80 percent of [00:04:00] the United States identifies as Christian, there's so much that's just like very inundated into the culture and most people have had some kind of like church experience.

And so when I can't encounter people who don't have any, any upbringing in that I'm fascinated by that. What was your life like? Yeah, it's like, oh! How did you, how did you do

Ashley: that? I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing that made my life different and a lot better that I definitely know, and Did I grow up with fear and shame as a child?

Yes, I grew up in a house with a narcissist. But, I tell you what, I was not afraid that any fuck up that I did was going to get me sent to hell. I didn't even know about hell, you know? Like, you guys were constantly in fear that you were going to go there. I didn't even know that it was a fucking thing. I think I saw all dogs go to heaven and...

I knew heaven was like a, probably a cool place for [00:05:00] dogs. Yeah. But that was the extent of my knowledge. Right. I love it. I love it. And it has been up until, up until pretty recently. I

Katherine: mean, you're going to know so many things after today, after our game today, the lingo. Yeah. And I, I, I, I'm now I'm like worried.

Is God going to judge us for playing this game?

Fallon: God is not going to judge us for playing this game.

Ashley: They loves it, but welcome

Katherine: Fallon. Tell us today.

Fallon: mainly to talk to you again, cause it was so fun the last time. But then also, like you said, I, I think I've told you before, but I grew up Catholic. So, you know, Catholics are very like religion at arm's length.

There's so many rules. There's very like, you know, you spend a lot of money and you go to mass and the mass has like exercises in it where you stand up and sit down a lot and kneel. And my mom used to, or my uncle used to call them the Pope's aerobics when he would go to [00:06:00] mass. And. Around like high school.

I started to hang out with Christian people who are more in the evangelical crowd, and I, I think I just wanted to be accepted by somebody.

Katherine: Pause. You said you hang out, you hung out with Christian people. Did you not consider yourself a Christian as a Catholic?

Fallon: No, not really. Because I wasn't, I wasn't really yourself.

Catholic. Yeah. Just Catholic. Like it was like it was I don't know, like it, like it was a nationality or something. Like I, I didn't have a concept of what it meant to be religious because I wasn't really connected to my religion. Like it like you had to go to the dentist, but you just had to do it more frequently.

It wasn't like a big deal to me. And then I, I wanted some, like. I want to say I wouldn't, wasn't like meaning and purpose to my life, but I ended up hanging out with kids that like went to church camps and did God stuff. So they bought me my first Bible, the little. [00:07:00] Like tie dyed teen study Bible everyone had in the mid nineties, you know, and They had like the little stories in it and they taught me all about purity culture.

Yay. And like good friends do and and then I sort of went on my own path and discovered You know, religion and church when I was in college and then in when I was in the Navy, I got like rebaptized again and I was like fully into it. I would say only about eight years ago, I stopped believing in going to church.

And I would call myself having been like evangelical during those years. And now I would call myself. I don't know. What is it called when you believe in a higher power, but not necessarily like the Christian

Katherine: God? Spiritual, but not religious. Yeah, that's

Fallon: a good

Ashley: way. Like I think that agnostic means that you believe in a higher power.

You just don't claim to know what that higher power is. And I don't know if something greater than you.

Fallon: Yeah. So I don't know if there's like a higher one power or if it's like the power of the [00:08:00] universe. I think there could be. You know, there's like weird forces out there. I believe in ghosts and maybe reincarnation and all that kind of stuff, but I don't subscribe to like a, a religion.

So I don't I don't find I need it anymore. But then I met Ashley like last year and somehow found myself on this crazy windy road to becoming one of her co hosts, which has been amazing. And we did this F word segment together where I got to meet you. So I think that's, I think that's my path.

That's my my journey here.

Katherine: As you were talking, I thought of two other things to add to the list. It's like, we can't just assume because like, we're too like, like, yes, we're more religious people, assuming that, you know, certain things, but I'm like, we can't assume that Ashley knows these things.

Ashley: Yeah, I actually had two quick questions.

So if you're re baptized, That means you're a born again Christian, which means you're evangelical, right? I just want to make [00:09:00] sure, do I have that right? It's a symbol,

Katherine: but could mean a lot of things. It

Fallon: could mean a lot of things.

Katherine: Like Presbyterians will baptize babies, and it's like a future hope. Like, we're hoping that they will be a Christian in the future, but it's not saying that the baby is a Christian.

Like Baptists will baptize someone as an adult because you have to be old enough to like make the decision yourself. And then that is a symbol that you are a Christian when you are baptized as an adult. So it's different for everybody, but it's like more like a

Ashley: ceremony. And so being born again, that doesn't equate to evangelicalism.

It is. It does. Yeah. It can be. Not always though. See, this shit is slippery. It is. I mean, what? I

Katherine: haven't heard of anyone outside of evangelicalism using born again

Fallon: though. No, that's really a, that's really a, an evangelical kind of terminology. [00:10:00] Which

Katherine: means that you have accepted Jesus into your heart.

Totally.

Ashley: Totally. Yeah. You guys, I put up a video the other day because I, I don't know if you saw it on the story, but it said, when you take your friend to church and they don't know what to do with their hands, and this girl is slowly doing the Macarena.

Katherine: that would 100 percent be me. I'd be like, I don't know what's happening.

Ashley: They're all raising their hands.

Katherine: I remember.

Fallon: Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say my stepfather was not a religious person and my mom used to make him try to go to mass. She quickly abandoned, but he would walk into the church and he, he would go, what am I supposed to do with water?

Like there's a bowl of water. What am I supposed to do with it? And I was like, stick your fingers in it and then blessed yourself. And he's like, what do you mean blessed yourself? And I, so we, we taught him up, down, left, right. And so then anytime we mentioned church for like [00:11:00] the rest of. Their marriage, we'd be like, we're going to church.

And he just like, yell up, down, left, right. Like that was his synonymous word for with church in church.

Katherine: Oh, yeah.

Ashley: I love it. But they told me that spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch was to help people to remember how to do the

Katherine: Austin

Fallon: powers told you that

Ashley: bitch. Another person, religious person

Katherine: told me that I swear, I swear,

Ashley: or I'm making weird shit up.

Also, you guys, the video I was just referring to, I believe was from Deuteronomemes, which is my favorite new account. I'm gonna follow them after. Fuck. You gotta go follow them. They put amazing Videos of like mega church pastors, wild and out and people going way too hard singing at church. Like it's, it's, it's really good stuff.

You guys,

Katherine: I'm going to, I'm going to follow them [00:12:00] after, but in preparation for this game, I'm going to play a little video for us and folks who grew up. Religious probably I've seen this video, but this is just going to get us warmed up real quick and let's get warm, share my screen. So I'm so

Ashley: excited

Katherine: and here we go.

Bless his heart. You think he's backsliding? I think I saw him drink. Yeah, but in moderation. I just wasn't seeing much fruit. He's going down a slippery slope. How's your heart, man? How's your heart? I'm just such a words guy. It was a total God thing. I'm blessed. Been working on my testimony. Is that secular music?

We're opening with a secular song tonight. Wait, is this a secular song? Isn't she secular? Which station is the fish? 104. 3, the fish. Safe for the whole family. You know he's a believer. I think he's saved. I just pray you'd give him traveling mercies. Pray for all powers unspokens. I echo that. I just really like to echo Pather's prayer, Father.

I echo that echo of my echo of his echo. I really [00:13:00] feel like I'm being released from this, you know? I'm trying to be relevant. I'm just trying to be in the world, not of it. Hey, do you want to join our small group? You want to join my D group? You want to join my cell group? Community group? Access group?

Accountability group? Axe 27 group? Dude, he brought it. He brought the word. That service last night rocked me. They're pretty purpose driven. Yeah, it's Seeker. Don't they do Seeker service there? I feel like he's gotten really watered down. I don't feel like he really teaches the word. It's just not enough meat, you know?

Are they non denom? We have a great Wednesday night supper. Let's invite some dudes over and fellowship tonight. We're gonna have a sick time of fellowshipping tonight. Dude, we had the sickest fellowship last night. We're going straight velocity. Ignite. Yeah, I'm going to ignite. The edge. The dive. The bridge.

The ramp. Fire. Courageous. Passion. Echo. Reverb. Noise. Velocity. Drive. Elevate. Radiate. 722. 635. 419. Orange. Blue. Yellow. Green. Clear. Neon. Catalyst Conference this year. I don't do that because I feel like it ruins my witness. Been struggling with that. I'm really wrestling with a, I'm wrestling with a doubt.

Need someone to hold me accountable. I'm really trying to be intentional with her. I'm [00:14:00] pursuing her, for sure. I'm trying to guard her heart. Guard her heart though, bro. Do you hold me accountable to that? Yeah, well, Bounce your ass. Dang it. Crap. Shoot. Sheesh. Frick. Darn it. What the H? Holy crap. Son of a bee sting.

Dude, he's really teeing me off. I'm gonna kick his ass. Are you assing me right now? Not cool. I find that offensive. I find that offensive. I find that

Fallon: offensive. Oh my god. I don't care how many times I watched that. I watched it right before you got on the call and I watched it yesterday and I still laugh every time, every time because it's, it's.

It's

Katherine: so real and that's literally how people talk though.

Ashley: Let's have some fellowship. I want to say that I understood

maybe about 20 percent of that.

Fallon: This game is going to be amazing. We should watch

Katherine: it again at the end and see if it makes [00:15:00] more sense.

Ashley: Although also, whoo, I got to say some of that brought me back to my AA days. A lot of fellowshipping and AA, a lot of great

Katherine: testimonial, you know, maybe in different words you know, but.

Mm. I have a suspicion that AA is a culti, is culti. Do you think AA is culti?

Ashley: I have a suspicion that I'm really irritated that culti shows don't want to talk to me more about my experience in AA because it was culti as fuck and people are like, Yeah. I don't want to put 12 step programs down. It's like, well, listen, if you knew what I was going to say, it would be that AA saved my life probably.

And I needed that

Katherine: accountability when

Ashley: I started. And then it became a little culty and maladaptive, so I'm not totally talking shit. Not everything that's culty is inherently bad, but

Katherine: well, that's kind of church [00:16:00]

Ashley: is pretty fucking culty motherfucker. Like I did wreck the words. The shit that I did recognize was either from.

AA or the Bachelor because they said a lot of like, what's on your heart in a season of the Bachelorette that I watched

Katherine: Are we ready?

Ashley: Are we ready? Ashley? I'm so ready. All

Katherine: right. I feel like we should have had a game

Ashley: sound. I'm excited as F

Katherine: all right. Take it away.

Fallon: All right. All right. If somebody said to you guard her heart, what does that

Ashley: mean? Be like be a man and make sure that you protect her. That's pretty close. Nailed it. Woo! One for one, Ashley. There's

Fallon: also, there's also a secret meaning which is in the dating, like, in the dating concept. I actually got this one from my husband.

It's like, guard her heart. Basically, don't have sex with her. Like,

Katherine: don't, don't stir up her emotions. [00:17:00] Yeah. Be a good Christian people. Make her want to have sex with you.

Fallon: Yeah. You know, those wily women, they might just want to have sex with everybody. Guard her heart.

Katherine: Okay. And then it's also used in a broader context of just like guard your heart against, you know, temptation, guard your heart against sin, guard your heart about, against desires and yeah, it's a very common, common, So, so

Ashley: you should be guarding her heart against sin and desire.

Yeah. Because you're the man and that's okay. Ew. I hate it. At first. I was like, no,

Katherine: that's cool. You're supposed to guard their eyes. So you're supposed to cover your body to guard your, your brother's eyes. Help him guard his eyes so that he wasn't led into temptation. Yeah. Yeah. You visually see

Ashley: the patriarchy is so strong already.

You guys, I can't

Katherine: get better.

Ashley: Good job. Good job, Ashley. Yay. I don't, I bet I feel like I [00:18:00] didn't get the second meaning, which was so much grosser. It's like, you know, those ladies and the crazy

Katherine: feelings. Oh,

Fallon: no. Well, we'll award points like the way they do on whose line. So we'll, you know, instead of a thousand for that one, you get 500.

All right. Okay.

Katherine: Next. Good job. Good job. You may already know this, but

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And now back to the show. All right. What does

Ashley: [00:19:00] backsliding mean? Okay. So again, I'm kind of thinking AA. Okay. You've made progress on something, and now you're not, you're not making progress anymore or you're maybe even going back into your bad habits.

Katherine: Yeah, I mean, I think it's similar. I think the word backsliding has this idea of like sliding back sliding back your old ways.

And so, yeah, but I think it can kind of be used interchangeably with any sort of like, it's like a slippery slope into into.

Ashley: Sin, if it's temptation and sin. Yeah.

Katherine: And like that was like a slippery slope in the churches that I grew up in, which are very patriarchal and women couldn't be pastors. If you like, let a woman teach on Sunday morning, it was like a slippery slope to like a woman.[00:20:00]

Having leadership and so it would be like a point of contention or a slippery slope would be like, you know, letting your child go to, if it was like, you're only supposed to homeschool your kids, but you let your kid go to a co op, that'd be like a slippery slope to putting your child in school or holding hands is like a slippery slope to having

Ashley: sex.

Oh, yeah.

Katherine: Quite any more to say I'm backsliding quite the

Fallon: jump. Yeah. I just have to wonder why there's so much sliding, like Christianity is on the mountain covered in Ky and you just,

Ashley: any minute you're just ready to like, just slide, slide

Katherine: down. Sliding. Well, there's an a lot of like going upward, like climbing the mountain right.

The heights. There's all this idea of like heaven being above and you're like climbing and you're moving upward and you're climbing the ladder. There's a lot of that. And so then sliding would be like you're sliding back down

Ashley: into the [00:21:00] mire. So if you like stopped praying as much or you started watching secular television.

Fallon: Yeah, that's the one.

Ashley: Whoa. Because I know what secular means. It means like of the non christian world, right? Right.

Fallon: I heard that meaning a lot more what Ash said, which is like somebody came into their belief later in life and they were doing really, really well. And usually they're like on fire for Jesus, right?

Like in the beginning. Oh, yeah. And then. When they're backsliding, it means like, Oh, they, they, I saw them hanging out with a friend who's not in church and I saw them go to the regular movie. So I think they might be backsliding into their

Ashley: secular life. You guys are fucking tripping me the fuck out right now because that is so AA too.

Like backsliding, slippery slope. If you're hanging out with. You know, your old friends who used to [00:22:00] drink and do drugs with that's a slippery slope. If you, if you, if you stop coming to as many meetings, you know, that might mean that you're out. Does AA have a

Katherine: foundation of Christianity? Like did Christianity?

Ashley: Well, motherfucker, I do know the Lord's prayer by heart. So you tell me, I would say big yes, hold on, hold on, hold, hold the phone, hold the phone. Hold on. Dear God. Give us our daily bread. Hold on. Give us our daily bread. Lead us not into temptation and walk through the valley.

Fallon: You've lost some of it.

I think over the years I haven't been to

Ashley: a fucking AA meeting in a long time, but I used to know that shit. Walk

Katherine: through the valley of the shadow of death. Amen.

Ashley: I take a look at my life and realize there's nothing left,

Katherine: [00:23:00] you know, coolio. Yeah. Yes.

Fallon: My guys. I was thinking Amish paradise from Ben's weird.

Owl

Ashley: lives living in an Amish bear. There you go. Love weird. Owl.

Fallon: Well, right now we're definitely backsliding because we're getting secular up in

here.

Ashley: Okay. No, but you guys, are you hearing how many AA connections

Katherine: there are? I wonder, I need to research this now. Did AA start by Christian found with a Christian foundation?

And is, is the prayer from AA that give me the courage to accept the

Ashley: things I cannot? Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Hold on. I know that one. That's the serenity prayer. God. I believe it starts with God. No. Yeah. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Is that, is that religious? Is that a religious poem?

Katherine: That, that is in religion and there will like that will happen, but like, I don't know which came [00:24:00] first. Did it come from AA into Christianity or did Christianity bring that into AA? I don't know. Shit bitch. I don't know. We should figure it out though. We have another podcast episode coming up.

Yeah, we do. Hey Fallon. So,

Fallon: If I say the term, a baby believer or a baby Christian, what does that mean?

Ashley: Like they just got indoctrinated. Yeah. God, you're so good at this.

Fallon: Contrary to popular belief, it does not mean a tiny baby who is also a

Ashley: Christian. Well, you guys, honestly, I think I've got a little bit of a leg up at this point. If we would have done this episode six months ago, I think that... Right. I probably would have been a lot more lost.

I'm not gonna lie. I've learned a lot about Christianity recently.

Katherine: We're gonna have to go to the hard ones.

Ashley: Yeah, we're gonna have to go to the hard ones. Oh, were you guys starting off with softballs? No, bring it.

Katherine: Yeah, okay, tell me what transubstantiation and the trinity

Ashley: are.[00:25:00]

Okay, good job. Well, you stumped me on A, okay? And the next one was what? Transubstantiation

Katherine: and the Trinity.

Ashley: Okay, the Trinity is the Father, Mary, and the Holy Ghost. Very close. It's the

Katherine: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yes. The Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost. You got it.

Ashley: Hey, what's Holy Ghosting? Is that a thing?

Or is that a sex thing? What? Is that a sex thing? I heard it was like when you come on somebody's back and then leave.

Katherine: Is it that a Superman? Oh

Fallon: my God. The fact that both of you know more than one term for weird

Katherine: sex acts and she's like, no, it's

Fallon: not that weird. It's this other weird superman.

Ashley: We're thinking of the, the Dirty Sanchez, which I don't actually know what that is.

It's different.

Fallon: No, let's talk,

Ashley: talk about that. Life is about the rusty trombone,

Katherine: you know the trans substantiation? You [00:26:00] don't know what that

Ashley: is? No. Okay. The Trinity though. Yeah, that's father, son .

Katherine: Do you know that that means that God is three in one?

Ashley: He's the father and the. No, no, he's a, he's a buy one, get one free deal.

Buy one, get two free. Wow. That's a hot bargain. Hey, question is Jesus God? Yes. Yes. Okay. But I thought Jesus was like God's son. Also, yes. Also, yes.

Katherine: My uncle

Ashley: was my grandpa and my grandpa was my uncle too. Ding a ling What's going

Katherine: on here, dude? Alright, transubstantiation. Both Protestants and Catholics know this one. Transubstantiation means that when you're doing communion, Do you know what communion is? Do you know what communion

Ashley: is? Is that when you eat the...

The bread and the wine? Okay I'm sorry. Can we all just touch on how [00:27:00] fucking weird that is? Body and blood of Christ. Yep, give it to me. Put it in my mouth. I want to eat that and drink that. Are you kidding me? Nobody's fucking thinking this is weird?

Katherine: Yeah, it is weird. And what makes it weird, in my opinion, is transubstantiation and the, the Protestants know this because the Catholics actually believe that the bread and the wine become the body of blood of Christ when you are taking communion, but the Protestants see it as a symbol, not as like actual blood and wine.

And the Protestants know transubstantiation because we know that that is what differentiates us from the Catholics. And what makes the Catholics not Christian is because they believe in transubstantiation.

Fallon: Oh, yeah. Cause you guys will be like, what's so weird guys is they believe that like, that's actually Jesus's like leg or body. [00:28:00] And like I said to Catherine, what's weird is that they believe that God actually talked to them while they were like taking a dump this morning and told them what to do that day.

Ashley: Like go eat me.

Fallon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, no. Just like go to your church and say, God told me this morning that I should ask you guys each for five more dollars. Everyone goes, Oh, he must've actually told him like, that's weird. But the believing that that's Jesus's body is not weird. Whatever.

Ashley: You guys. Catholics are metal

as fuck, dude. It's wild. I'm sorry, but I have been reading some of the Bible and I'm pretty sure that he said cannibalism isn't cool. There you go. There you go. You guys, you know, the Bible, he doesn't God say, doesn't God say not to eat people? Yes. He says yes. He totally [00:29:00] does. I remember it. And they're just up, up there eating him every Sunday.

Catholics. I don't, I don't understand. Catholics

Fallon: believe that like basically set up their mass. So their weekly service is a mass. If anybody, I'm sure people listening to the show do know, but they, the mass is really every Sunday. Each week. A reenactment of part of the Last Supper, what they believe happened at the Last Supper of Jesus, which you'll get to in the second part of the Bible, and so they say, Jesus took the bread.

He gave you thanks and praise. I know the whole mass broke it and said, eat this. It is my body. You know, so he, they believe he said it and that's why they say it. And then they believe that when you wave your hands over the cauldron, it becomes the thing. Not there's no cauldron, but

Katherine: usually put clips of, of conversations, but I want to do that clip because Ashley's face.[00:30:00]

Ashley: What are you talking about? Oh, you guys. And that's Catherine. That's why it's witches are evil. Yeah. I was going to say also that it sounds like witchcraft. So like what? Yeah.

Fallon: Oh God, now I got to find a good one. Hold

Ashley: on. I know that. And that was, that

Katherine: was considered two. So we're at, I think five now.

So we

Ashley: have five more. So when you were, when you asked Callen, sorry, when you asked Fallon earlier, Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. So when you asked Fallon earlier, Oh, so as a Catholic, you don't consider yourself a Christian. I thought that was a very interesting question for you to ask because I thought that the big difference was.

Christians, there's a whole bunch of denominations like Protestant and whatnot. And Catholics just like rocked out on their [00:31:00] own. And they were like, listen, you guys can, or I think the Christians were like, this is too metal. We're going to do our own thing. Right. So it's kind of like Catholics versus Christians a little bit.

No.

Katherine: Well, I always heard it like Catholic versus Protestant and there would be people who would be like Catholics are not Christians. And then the Catholics that I knew got offended by that. And we're like, no, we're Christians. And like, you don't get to decide if we're a Christian or not. And worshiping Mary and transubstantiation were the main arguments about why Catholics weren't real Christians.

And so I grew up with Catholic relatives and, and it was always like, are they a Christian or are they not? And

Fallon: I would say largely like my thing was just, I never thought about my faith, like with that kind of question when I was younger, like church is just something you do. And Catholic church is not like.

You know, an evangelical service where like you, you might be crying and you're raising your hands and you're [00:32:00] singing moving songs, closing your eyes and you're like, somebody is preaching from their heart half the time, like Catholic has a very specific service. They have a book that gets published and it's basically like on this day you plug in this reading and it's the same every year and the church is always the same.

The priest gets like a little chunk of time in the middle to say whatever he wants, but that's it. There's no, there's no ad libbing throughout, and so it's not anything you can really attach your heart to, right? Not, not really. And this is, this

Ashley: is like three hours every Sunday? One hour. That's still too much.

One hour. That sounds boring as hell. I mean, honestly, I'd rather go listen to Omega Pastor fucking while out about I, I saw the best one the other day. He's like, We don't make it rain on booty cheeks. That was the first fucking thing he said. He said a whole other list of sinful things that they don't do.

That's hilarious. I just, but I do [00:33:00] remember that. And I was like, Amen. You know?

Fallon: Right. Ashley, I'm going to, I'm going to put a hedge of protection on you. What am I going to do?

Ashley: Well, I feel like it's something to do with protection.

Katherine: Another way would be saying the same would be like, I'm going to pray a hedge of protection over you.

Ashley: Is it like a a forest field, but it's a bush because God appeared as a board, a burning bush. I love

Katherine: it. I love that. That's really complex. It's very simple.

Ashley: Yeah. Basically. Is it not what I said? No, No,

Fallon: it's about protection and it's not really a force field. It's just, you're praying for protection, usually from like Satan, like something's happening in your life and the way I've heard it, Satan's about to get in, like Satan's attacking you from all sides. So I'm, I'm like the way I would surround my house with like a big hedge to keep, keep people [00:34:00] out.

And from looking in my windows, like I'm, I'm praying for like something to protect you from bad forces.

Ashley: Why does it have to be a hedge, though? Yeah, I don't

Fallon: understand the hedge either. I feel like, I feel like, if Satan is really this crazy, powerful being that can influence everything else, he could probably just whip out his chainsaw, right?

Like, get through some leaves. And just, like, right through that hedge, so.

Katherine: You were talking about that before we started. Yeah. About how hedges actually know that. Not that sturdy, but yes, I think a force field is kind of like a spiritual field

Ashley: like you are. Yeah, that's, that's kind of witchy though, you know.

Yeah. Oh, oh, for sure. They would stone me to death or something for that. Hey,

Katherine: I've been asking for y'all to help me find a witch to cast a protection spell.

Ashley: Right? And I was like, I'm a baby witch. I'll buy a book.

Katherine: And as I was looking at the like online, I was like, this is just prayer. Oh my God. This is just [00:35:00] praying like, Oh no, I

Ashley: want to read you some of the, the prayers, the spells.

Oh my God. They sound like prayers. Oh my God. I want to read you some. Not of this one. Spell or prayer. We'll do it after. On

Katherine: that note. If someone were to say I have a check in my spirit, what, what, what do they mean?

Ashley: That they feel like they have accountability within them. Like somebody's checking their spirit, but it's, it's, it's like God within their heart or Jesus. Or whatever. You guys, I'm killing this Christianity game. Yeah. I think I'm so proud of myself. I think

Fallon: I said on a previous episode that you might be a better Christian than any of us at this point.

And it's highly possible that knowledge alone, that might be absolutely

Ashley: true. I'm well, because I didn't grow up with it. You guys, I'm fascinated. I'm like, that's

Katherine: probably like, you're probably retaining it a lot more because it's [00:36:00] fascinating. Whereas we grew up with it and it was just like everyday jargon.

Yeah. And like, we've never had to like explain it to somebody before, but you're learning it in a way. In which you can like explain it to somebody and check in spirit. My grandmother used to say that all the time, just like check your spirit or mind the checks, mind the checks in your spirit, which was like, basically the, yeah, like the Holy Spirit was like speaking to you to tell you something was like dangerous or, you know, stay away from it, or basically intuition, but the Jesus, Jesus version,

Ashley: I'm thinking about how scary it is as somebody with a fucking.

Jesus Christ. Am I right? And how many people in coercive controlling religious groups are being told constantly that they're going to hell and then if they have PTSD or any kind of mental mental illness. People, they're [00:37:00] just told to pray it away. I'm imagining having the mental health issues that I do and being in a situation where everybody around me was like, that's not real, or that's the devil getting you.

Like, holy fucking fuck. That sounds so scary. I'm just imagining if I, like my brain's crazy. And I think if the, if his enough people were telling me that my panic disorder and shit is the devil fucking believe that and they'll be scared the fuck

Katherine: out of me, dude. Oh, absolutely. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.

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Fallon: So Ashley, I'm going to ask you, what are your, what are your unspokens?

If I say that, if I say unspoken, what are, what am I talking

Katherine: about? Yeah.

Ashley: Unspoken

Fallon: or I pray for your unspokens. .

Ashley: Oh, thank you. Context. It's like the shit you don't say that you did because it's, it's a, sins be,

Fallon: could be. Usually they're talking about unspoken prayer requests.

Ashley: Like

Katherine: the things that you don't know that you need prayer

Fallon: for.

Yeah. Yeah. Like either I'm thinking about it and I don't want you to know that I'm praying for it or all of like, if I'm like, I pray for all of Catherine's unspokens, it means that I'm praying for all of the stuff she actually needs that she doesn't know she needs. And maybe. Oh, but you know, your pastor may know that you need more than, than you do.

Right. Like pray for all that shit too. So

Katherine: I was 29 years [00:39:00] old, a missionary woman prayed over me and, and she prophesied that I would get married and I would have this, like, we would be like this power couple. And this was like, Almost 10 years ago.

Ashley: Where's your Christian power husband? Where is my Christian power spouse?

Where

Fallon: is your Christian power husband? That sounds like an action figure that we need to develop.

Katherine: But I just remember it being like, they're going to be a power couple lord. A power couple lord. He has a

Fallon: starched white shirt with two buttons.

Ashley: Okay, bitch. Listen, I'm about to throw some terminology down. Is that prosperity gospel?

Not

Fallon: really. Prosperity gospel is more like.

Ashley: Is that like being rich means you're close to God? Yes.

Katherine: Ish. That's prosperity gospel. Yeah. Like God is blessing

Fallon: your life. Or it's okay to have abundant money and not necessarily like help every person with it and keep it for yourself because [00:40:00] God wants you to be rich.

That's what the MLMs like to

Ashley: use. That's some televangelist type shit, right?

Fallon: Yeah. The ones that raise money. Like

Ashley: the guy who has all the planes. Who's that guy? He's big on TV. Olsteen? Probably. Like, he's really fucking rich because he preaches on TV and people are super

Fallon: into it. I don't know if Joel Osteen, maybe there's a few of them, Joel Osteen's the pastor in Texas, right?

And he has like, he has like a giant super mega complex house and like millions and millions of dollars and huge church. Yeah. He's a big prosperity gospel person. Amway likes to tell you to read him.

Ashley: He's a, he's a prosperity. No, no, no. Joel Osteen is a televangelist. So yeah, I think he is the one who's.

Yeah. With the

Katherine: plane. So razy rich. Oh, and

Ashley: like. the planes? I think so. What

Katherine: does it mean to be in the world,

Ashley: but not of it? Okay. So I feel like that means that you have to go to [00:41:00] work, right? And you have to, you have to do stuff that's in the world. But don't let the secular people drag you into their sin because you should be.

More in like the godly world and so it's saying be in the secular world because like you have to also you have to tell people that Jesus is what's up and you know, you got to go out there and like proselytize and let people know that like Catherine I learned this from you that if you're doing good work in the workplace, you're doing it for Jesus Christ.

Did I, did I nail it? Oh, you

Katherine: totally nailed it. 100%, 100 points. 100 of the points. 100 percent of the points. I feel like

Ashley: an amazing Christian right now.

Fallon: You are. You would have giant.

Katherine: You are halfway up the mountain to

Ashley: the kingdom. You guys, I'm on fucking fire for Christ right now. [00:42:00]

Fallon: I need that on a t shirt.

I'm on

Katherine: fire, Ashley. You're a burning. Oh yeah.

Ashley: Oh, I mean, ignite me baby. Cause I can't, I can't get hotter for Jesus. All right. Yeah.

Fallon: Yeah. Anyhow, I think, I think you, cause the last one, the last one, I've had so much fun. Oh my gosh. But you're too good at this. It would be so much better if you were like baby believers are tiny babies that somehow believe like that would have been funny.

Yeah.

Ashley: You guys, you guys didn't know that I was going to fucking bring that, that passion of the Christ heat. You're like a super agent.

Fallon: You are. You're a sleeper agent for Christ.

Ashley: Okay, that's a t shirt.

Katherine: That's a t shirt.

All right.

Fallon: So, I'm gonna end with this one. I'm pretty sure you'll get it. But, if I say, God put it on my heart. [00:43:00]

Ashley: Okay, this is one of the things that I told you I learned from The Bachelor. So, when God puts something on your heart, it means you, like, really need to speak to somebody about something, because if God puts that on your heart, like, fuck, that means you got to do it.

Right? Yeah. That's good. And like people on the bachelor. No one can argue with you about it. No. Yeah. Cause people on the bachelor would weirdly have God put it on their heart that they had to go see the bachelorette like after the rose ceremony. Like God put it on my heart and I needed to come here and yeah, God put it on my heart to come get to know you better.

Yeah,

Fallon: exactly. Somebody justifies their actions by implying that God told them to do a certain thing a certain way or say a certain thing. And like Catherine said, that's the big piece. You can't argue with me because it's from God. Right. Right. God tacked this post it note to my chest that said, you know, I need to, to tell you you're a [00:44:00] jerk or whatever.

And like, I

Ashley: must be, because that's funny because God put it on my heart to Fuckin talk about all of these fucks and expose them for the fuckin dick tits they are. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly, right? Heavy on the allegedly's. That's what,

Katherine: It gets really funky in the dating community. When I'm going to be like, the Lord told me that we were going to get married and they would like tell the person that, or it was like a common, like commonly used excuse for women.

If they didn't want to date somebody, if someone asked them out, it should be like the Lord, the Lord wants me to be single right now. Like God

Ashley: doesn't want, I like that. I would use that even as a secular woman. I'd be like weirdly, I just got in touch with Christ. He put it on my heart to Not date you.

Yeah I, I gotta I just have to trust the Lord on this

Katherine: one. Yeah, no. Yeah, but then strangely, six months later, suddenly God was okay with them being in a relationship.

Ashley: [00:45:00] Yeah. I like that. I kind of like that though.

Fallon: I

Ashley: know. Well, Catherine, that's why I wanted you to look into Twin Flames universe. Because I think that's exactly the, the idea.

That they're running on because I was watching this documentary on Amazon Prime, you guys, it's really great. And I was like, why are they fucking bringing Christianity into this? This is about finding like your soulmate, which actually seems more like some woowoo shit, blah, blah, blah. And it's because they encourage you to stalk your love interest, because if God's put it On your heart to love them.

That means you're supposed to be together and you should pursue them until they realize that that's the correct thing.

Katherine: I know a lot of relationships that turned out that way. Like the, the guy just stalked her for years or the, or the woman did the same thing, like just like hung out for years and years.

Like, [00:46:00] I believe, I believe the Lord has us together. My

Fallon: spiritual gift is stalking.

Ashley: Mine is patience or whatever. Women always get your mercy. Oh, yeah.

Fallon: You're a mercy giver. Patience is definitely not my spiritual gift.

Katherine: All of my spiritual gifts were gifts that women weren't supposed to have like leadership. And

Ashley: why did you get hooked up with those?

Katherine: Yeah, man. Talk to God about that one.

Ashley: You're like, bitch. He put it on their hearts. I don't know.

Katherine: He gave me these gifts and then he gave me boobs. What up?

Ashley: What? Everyone was confused. Okay,

Katherine: so Ashley, how did you feel about this game? I feel like you got at least an A. I feel like I

Ashley: think I know Christianity better than I thought I did. You

Katherine: definitely.

I

Ashley: might know more than some Christians at

Fallon: this point. I think it's [00:47:00] amazing that, you know, you don't even know, like, it's not even that, you know, like Christianity, you know, like Christian slang,

Katherine: that's you're in the world. You are in the

Ashley: world, but I'm not of it. You guys. Okay. Let's get it straight. No secular music or entertainment up in this house.

I only produce the content. Do not listen. Don't listen to it. Good for you. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. You're so holy. You're holy. Holy, holy. I'm holy ghosted Later. So you're holy. Ghosted. . Yeah, . So, Ashley, I don't wanna know,

Katherine: I'm curious, like, what is your feeling about these phrases? Like, did they come across as like, just like super weird and like, this is like this?

Or is it like, oh, this is normal. This is just

Ashley: culture? Well, like I said, part of it felt super familiar because of aa. Which I'm like, yeah,

Katherine: I think that shit's, like,

Ashley: pretty Christian, though. I did say the [00:48:00] Lord's Prayer quite a few times. And... I just also remember a conversation that I had with my mom where she was like, that sounds pretty Christian.

And I was like, no, you don't get it. It's a spiritual organization and like how people in Colts always really argue with people that they're not. We're not, we're not a cold. We're not though. You know, it's like we just have these meetings and you know, the fellowship tonight was like tight as fuck.

You don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. So what I think I do notice, Not so much that it's weird, but that it's culty because one of the big hallmarks of cults is having your own fucking lingo that outsiders don't understand.

Fallon: Great way to keep people who you don't want out out and a great way to keep people who you've got in because everyone likes to feel like they know the group speak, right?

Oh my

Ashley: god, you know, it'd be so fun if I asked you guys if you knew what these AA sayings [00:49:00] meant. Like first things first. Yeah. Anybody? Is that

Katherine: from AA? It is.

Ashley: Yeah, it is. Take a stab.

Katherine: Just focus on what you have in front of you and don't worry about the rest.

Ashley: Yeah. You nailed it. Yeah, basically like so if you, so a lot of people will like get sober and then also become a vegetarian who goes to the gym six times a week and doesn't smoke anymore.

So that is, Oh yes, they just replace the addiction with something else. Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know first things first means, so like if it can mean. Just don't get overwhelmed with everything and just take care of what's most important first. And it can also mean, like, if you're trying to quit alcohol, wait until you feel comfortable with that before you try to quit cigarettes or whatever.

Because, super easy to backslide, very slippery slope. [00:50:00]

Fallon: But you know what? I've heard that when I started, like, when I got came, like, started to go back into like deep Christianity when I was in the Navy, shut up. I heard that from somebody who was like, well, I heard including a God put it on my heart. But he was like, when I first became a Christian, I had it put on my heart that I should only focus on one thing at a time. So like my, he was like, so I would encourage you to only focus on following God for one year and no dating and no thinking about romance for one year, because otherwise you can't be sure that you're doing like that thing correctly.

So yeah, that. That shows up. Like, if you're a new Christian, focus on being a Christian, don't focus on trying to date and, you know, do this,

Ashley: stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. That is what they say in AA too. They say for your first year, don't date. Don't. All right. I'm going to, I'm going to

Katherine: Google it. Does AA.

Oh

Ashley: my God. I'm freaking out. You guys, I was. [00:51:00] So much more

Katherine: in a cult than I thought

Fallon: what? No, you were just a Christian for

Katherine: a while. I love that Christianity informed your view of AA being a cult. I'm like, oh my god. Oh my god. The similarities

Fallon: are meeting through AA's immediate precursor The Christian Revivalist Oxford Group, they and other alcoholics fellowship there until forming what became

Ashley: AA.

Okay, that's the thing. They realized that the altruistic Christian model, they are. That's what it says somewhere.

Katherine: An altruistic Christian movement is what it says.

Ashley: Shut the fuck up. Shut the

Katherine: fuck up. Where? The end 1935 when

Ashley: it was founded. Okay, so, okay, now I'm starting to remember Bill Wilson the big book.

Bill Wilson of, also the big book the Bible of AA. Bill Wilson, our charismatic leader who gets celebrated on his birthday.

Katherine: Like,

Ashley: like. There's often [00:52:00] a picture of him in the rooms. Oh my

Katherine: gosh, this is such a

Ashley: cold. Freaking out. I, that is why I'm a good Christian. I fucking was a good

Fallon: Christian for quite a while.

Catherine. I almost feel like I need to be like, you need a whole a episode and we should stop this

Ashley: here. Yeah. No, we

Katherine: got to stop now. Cause this is crazy. Christian and the ASF. But I definitely think you should do an AA episode for that's a fucked up. You should definitely do that. I think it sounds it. It sounds like everyone I know who's been through AA when they would like tell the stories, I would be like, that sounds like so shaming.

And so like behavior oriented and it sounds so like restrictive. And so I'm just like scarcity mindset and just like, it doesn't sound like human to some extent.

Ashley: No, I'm like, I'm like tripping out. I'm making like so many [00:53:00] wild connections right now. Oh my God. And especially

Katherine: because typically what leads to addiction is trauma and it didn't sound like there was any depth into addressing the

Ashley: trauma.

Well, this is fun. And you, when you do your steps, one of the steps is to. Admit all of the ways that you've wronged everybody in your life. And I said, what about my mother who abused me? And they said, well, you have to find your part in that, which is that as a 30 something year old woman, you're still holding on to that resentment.

Whoa,

Katherine: that's straight out of Christianity. Straight.

Ashley: Also every night you're supposed to write an inventory, which is like all the ways that you had fucked up that day. That's like shame based. Yeah, if, if you get out, if you're out of the program, when you come back in, you have to take a newcomer chip and be like, yeah, after 10 years of sobriety, I drank for one day and now I'm a newcomer and that [00:54:00] whole 10 years is gone and everybody's like, everybody's like, yay.

And you're like, okay, cool. Like I'm getting love bombed by the group. I'm glad to be here. This is the only way to stay sober because in AA, there's only one truth is the only way to stay sober.

Katherine: So AA becomes the new

Fallon: addiction. Hey, Oh my gosh. Yeah. We got to talk about this. Wow. Okay.

Katherine: This is a whole new episode, but yeah.

So in conclusion, Ashley, any final thoughts, Fallon, any

Fallon: final thoughts? No, this was really fun. We're glad to get back together. Well, I was, I think I speak for both of us. So glad to get back together with you. And it was really fun to see Ashley unravel all my expectations that she wouldn't know Christian

Ashley: lingo.

So, and to see Ashley. Fully realized that she was in a Christian cult for multiple. I mean, that doesn't make me

Fallon: happy, but yes, it was

Ashley: but

Katherine: it solves the mystery for me as I'm like hearing people's stories. I'm like, that sounds cool.

Ashley: [00:55:00] Yeah, but

Katherine: I can't say that because so many people like worship AA and found it so helpful.

Ashley: . I think I'm finding that I want to say what the fuck I want to say and say, I said what I said, but I will be honest as well and say.

I think at times it was really fucking helpful. I think at times I needed that. I think some people, legit, that is the only fucking way for them to stay sober, is with that level of accountability, and trying to like, get out of their narcissism by finding that there is something bigger than them and they're not the center of the universe.

So I do say it with the, I mean, Like I always say, cults are on a spectrum. They're not always super harmful and coercive. But, is that shit culty as fuck? Yeah. And, like I said, it was really helpful for a while. And then it became maladaptive, which is when I felt shamed. Because I smoked weed. [00:56:00] Because I got sunstroke and was like violently throwing up and I understand the medicinal properties of marijuana and then they were like, yeah, you went out and I was like, no, I didn't.

And I actually left because I wasn't going to let this fucking group of people tell me that I had that my sobriety was fucked. I was like, no. Actually, it's not. So, fuck you guys. I'm out. And now I've been sober for, if we're not going by AA time, about nine fucking years. I've had a couple drinks in between.

I think I went like one year, actually, probably drinking. That does not negate the other fucking eight. Yeah. Where I did not pick up a drink. So, you know, it's, I heard something really interesting. And I think that you were in a cold. depending on whether or not you Think or decide you were in a cult. I thought that was very interesting.

Like it's not really up to other people to tell you that you were in a cult because maybe you were and you had a great time. Like maybe that one fucking [00:57:00] Scientology or NXIVM class that you took at the very low level and you never went into the organization. Maybe that class helped you, you know, so.

Katherine: Exactly. And, and, and I think that that is the opposite of fundamentalism when you can kind of hold those things together and just be like, it was helpful. But the organization itself is harmful

Ashley: and yeah, because life's not black and white, right? Like there's a lot more

Katherine: gray. I can say the foundation of evangelicalism, I believe is problematic, but I'm not going to, but I can also say people I know go to church and have a good experience and they genuinely have a good experience and it helps them be a better person.

So right. Both of those things can be true at

Ashley: the same time. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I think that's a great place to end. Me too. Thanks everyone for being here. Yeah, you guys, and

 If you guys have not checked out Catherine's episode on our feed, please do follow us on That's So Fucked Up. We're on all the platforms where you listen to podcasts. We did a six episode [00:58:00] series on Christian fundamentalism. One with Catherine. It was awesome. So check that out and Catherine, thank you so much for having us.

Thank you

Katherine: for being here guys. This was so fun.

Ashley: Hell yeah.

Katherine: Christianity.

Shannon Payton (https://shannypantsshow.com/), known as Shanny Pants by many, is a content creator and podcaster living in Rocklin, California. Although Shannon has a successful career as a Realtor, she has equally enjoyed her hobby of sharing her humor through Instagram with friends and family. In 2020 her video about making school lunches went viral, it opened a whole new world for her. She now has many viral videos and hundreds of thousands of social media followers.

Her podcast, The ShannyPants Show is currently in its second season. In her interview style podcast, Shannon shares her struggles of growing up in a cult, battles through years of infertility that ended in a hysterectomy and finally her journey to parenthood through foster care and adoption.

She enjoys sharing the struggles of life in a humorous way as part of her self-prescribed therapy and through this, has connected with her fans. Her podcast topics include a wide range of subjects which in one way or another relate to something she has been through.

Shannon has been a guest on The Kelly Clarkson show and has appeared on local TV show GoodDay Sacramento multiple times. Shannon is currently writing a memoir and is looking forward to giving her followers a deeper look into her life. When Shannon is asked where she gets all of her ideas for her humorous videos she sarcastically states, “I’m married and have kids, that’s all the inspiration I need for some crazy content”. IG: @therealshannypants @shannypantsshowpodcast

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [email protected]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings

 [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Do you ever get to a point where everything is just too much and you just need to take a break? That is kind of how I've been feeling the past few weeks.

Around trauma recovery. And abuse dynamics and sometimes it just gets to be a lot and I just need to take a break. So I had to do that over the weekend a little bit. And this episode, I wanted to put this episode out because, uh, the guest today, Shani Payton is just a super funny human being and is comedian her content on social media is.

So funny and keeps me laughing all day long and I thought that this episode was going to be like this really funny episode because we recorded it. I think back in like December and I listened to it and I was like, Oh, it's not as funny as I thought it was going to be, but there is some laughter. Fear not.

 [00:01:00] Shani Payton is a comedian and has hundreds of thousands of followers. So, so, so, so funny, but she has a darker origin story. She grew up in a church cult, and she has been on her own journey of recovery and healing, and humor plays a role in our healing process, and we do get to that at the end, but we also just talked about the dynamics of control and the impact that it has on us, it's just a really great conversation, and I really like Shani a lot.

I'm going to link to her website in the show notes so you can follow her on all the things. She also hosts the Shani Pants show, which is a podcast. I was recently on the Shani Pants show, I will link to that episode of my conversation with Shani Payton, also in the show notes.

Thanks so much for being here, and if you're having one of those weeks where you just need to take a break, then you know what? [00:02:00] You should. Take a break. Go for a little walk. Have a sip of water. And if you can take a break. for a couple days, sure, just do it. If you can. I highly recommend it. It's good to do that.

All of the abuse and trauma it'll still be here when you get back. Pretty sure about that. Alright, so here is my conversation with Shannie Payton of The Shannie Pants Show.

Katherine: Hello.

Shanny: Oh, it's so good to see you. Good to see you. I'm so

Katherine: excited. Me too. Talk about culty things. Talk about abuse things, but then talk about fun things too and ways that giggling and laughter and jokes help us on this amazing healing process. Where do you hail from right now?

Shanny: Northern California, right around the Sacramento [00:03:00] area.

Katherine: Yeah. I lived in LA for four

Shanny: years, so. Oh, did you? Okay. I'm familiar with the stomping grounds. Oh yeah. Just a quick, you know, nine hour little drive for me. Not

Katherine: bad at all. No big deal. No big deal. I know. I know every, every time I moved someplace, people would say, Oh, do you know so and so? Because they like live in the state and it's like, This is like a massive state.

Other than D. C. where people are like, Oh, my friend blah blah blah lives there. Like, D. C. is so big. No, I have not run into them in the grocery store. No. Well, whenever

Shanny: someone says, you know, whenever It seems like when people say, Oh, California. Oh, do you surf? And I'm like, no, no, I do not surf. Like,

Katherine: like, because

Shanny: it's like how the state is, how long it's like, I live more up in the mountains.

And, you know, versus the coast. And, and then even so there's. So many different [00:04:00] coasts as far as, you know, all the way down to the Bay Area. Yeah. So it's funny, but everyone that's like, Oh, do you surf? No, no, you would not want to see that all the time.

Katherine: Right? Yeah.

Shanny: Quick, quick little weekend trips

Katherine: every, every weekend.

Shanny: But yes, but I do love where we live. It's beautiful. And I, I. Yeah, I really love it. And I grew up here. I've never moved far from home, so I've always been in the area. Yep.

Katherine: Right. All right. Well, I would love to introduce you to folks by hearing your story. The group that you grew up in is very similar to the group that I grew up in with this just very fundamentalist dedication to interpretation of the Bible and I would love to hear what that was like for you growing up and process getting out questioning because you're [00:05:00] not, you're not in it now.

Right. Right. Right.

Shanny: Otherwise I would not be talking to you because you are

Katherine: of the world. I am. We could not communicate. No, no eye contact would be happening. So tell me, tell me a little bit about it. I know a lot of folks in our community are going to really

Shanny: yes, I, so I was born into this cult religious cult and up in Northern California. My parents were also born into it. So we had some generational, you know, fun things. We're just dragging around. And, you know, it started out as from as much as I can understand, talking to my grandparents and other older folks it started out as kind of like a, we're going to go not, not even nondenominational.

It was just like, we're going to do meetings in our home, basically. So I think it started out as a pretty innocent. Kind of fine thing like just Bible studies and in homes and then it's from what I understand. It sounds like in the [00:06:00] 70s late 70s to 80s The his son is now the current leader, but he took over And we'll call him RG.

He, and from that point on is kind of when it became more rule based, fear based and that's when kind of there started to be a lot more things that got put into place and people just kind of, I guess, followed along and went with it. And so in the mid, 80s, there was what we call the split of the 80s, where a large group of people were questioning some of the beliefs and rules and restrictions.

And there was a, we call it marking to be avoided, but like an excommunication. So there was a large group that were excommunicated from us in the 80s because they were questioning and you don't do that. And part of my family,

Katherine: like in a [00:07:00] group, or was it like, we call you in, into the office

Shanny: and it was basically, I mean, I was a kid at the time, but it basically is just public, you know, from the front, you're hearing, and we had a lot of different sex.

So we had like ours up here in Northern Cal, there was four in North, in California. And then we had like Texas, Virginia, Oklahoma, Canada. Mexico. I think that's all of them. So this message would go to everyone because we would get together. We call them camps where people from all different, what we call assemblies would like beat together and hang out.

And so everyone's getting the same announcement basically that these people are marked you are or not to associate with them. And it truly was like, yeah. Oh yeah. Like announcing their name. Oh yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mark, you

Katherine: are

Shanny: an announcements today.

Katherine: It's very light. We [00:08:00] just

Shanny: have, you're not allowed to talk to your family again.

Oh my God. Yeah. So that happened back in the eighties and I was I was a young kid then and part of my family was marked my dad's sister and her family which she married my dad's best friend. So that was like really hard on my parents. Yes. And it sounds like they were kind of. You know, on the cusp of do we be a part of the marked group or not.

And of course we stayed. But it was really sad because all of a sudden, and you know, as a young child, I'm not allowed to hang out with my cousins anymore. And I was really good friends with the one that was really close to my age, and it was just really confusing and I remember like even as a child, like, Oh, it was awful and you're in like life wasn't confusing enough how we lived.

But I just remember like praying like, please help them get right with the Lord because obviously they've left the will of the Lord and, you know, [00:09:00] because that's what we are taught is they're wrong and they're sinning. And they're a part of the world now, so they're no longer a part of us. What did

Katherine: they, did you ever find out what they got marked

Shanny: for? You know, I don't know. It was really about like, it was like legalistic stuff. Like, even like, so we had to wear like skirts and the women. And the men had to wear pants. So we had to just like kind of rules like that. And I know some of it was around that kind of stuff. Just why do we do this? Like, let's dig in.

Why, why are we doing this? So it wasn't.

Katherine: If you can justify it and give me a logical reason, sure. But if you don't have one.

Shanny: Right. Go ahead and mark us, I guess, because that's what we're going to do, because we obviously don't, they didn't have a reason, you know, it, but that was the thing. You don't question, you just don't, you just follow along like we did for so many years.

But yeah, so it was just about, it was not about anything crazy, nothing [00:10:00] like nothing serious. And like, Nothing even biblical, I don't think, you know, it was more like the rule side of things. So, but that was really hard on my family. I know. And yeah. It was really sad, but that's, but kind of growing up, that's kind of like a little bit of the background of how this group started.

But growing up in it, it was, like I said, it was just a lot of rules, very fear based where like, I'd never went to, we, and we were, so we had no name. Our church group cult had no name. And that was because you wouldn't, if you follow a follower of God, you wouldn't. You wouldn't need a church name. The church is the, the body of people, right?

It's not a building. So we would meet in Grange Halls or people's houses and we would never take a name, which was really fun explaining to people at school as a kid when they're like, what church do you go to? And you're like I don't know. [00:11:00] Yeah. So we literally had a concerted

Katherine: effort to be different.

Shanny: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Oh,

Katherine: that's super confusing because you don't have an identify. No. Wow.

Shanny: It was, it was very interesting. So we did grow up. So we would go to meetings at Grange halls in our assembly here. There was, I'm guessing about like 100, 150 of us, maybe in this area. And our assembly, most people were homeschooled.

We did go to public school, me and my sisters. And there was a really tiny little public school right by a Grange Hall where we met. And so a couple of the other families went there as well. And it was awful going to school with cult people because they would call you out. Like my parents, we were always in trouble because my parents were a little bit more on the like.

Rebellious side, I would say, like my dad would wear shorts at home. They would let us wear pants at home. And [00:12:00] we were like constantly in trouble. It seems like but we did go to school with a couple of other families that went to our meetings as well. Were they reporting you? Yes, they would not only would they report us, but like when we were younger in like grammar school, they one of them was in my grade.

So it was a little school. So we all are together. And he would, like, we would be doing like a craft project, like making Santa magnets, because it's Christmas, we didn't celebrate any holidays. I probably should point that out. No holidays. Oh, yes. , he would like raise his hand.

And be like, teacher, teacher, teacher, Shannon and me cannot make the magnets. And I'm just like, Oh,

Katherine: here we go again. So pretty much don't

Shanny: celebrate Christmas. No, so we cannot make felt Santa magnets. Oh, yeah. So that was fun. And then like everything else in grammar school, I and I [00:13:00] was such an uncomfortable child.

I was so confused looking back. I know now that I was. I was very anxious and depressed my whole entire years growing up and at the time I just, you know, Oh, I'm shy or whatever. So, but we, so another thing in school though, that's really fun is because we didn't celebrate holidays whenever they were like singing songs or because you know how it is like, and maybe it was more that way back when we were in school too, but like you would, the school would sing Christmas carols and put on a little thing for the parents and all that.

So whenever they were practicing Christmas carols or any holiday, anything, we, all of the cool people, kids would go to the library and hang out and literally just sit there. Being bored. Just hanging out in the library while everyone else is having fun. And, and we had to do that during sex education as well.

Because we, of course, right,

Katherine: right, [00:14:00] right.

Shanny: Because, because we don't need to learn about our bodies. Like we are different. Yes,

Katherine: exactly. Oh my goodness. And that was awful. Just like, it's so isolating.

Shanny: Oh, so much. So

Katherine: much. Contributing to this, like. Set apartness nature that is characteristic of so many cults of like, we are better.

Yeah. Oh yeah. We're gonna do this like separatist thing to like show that we are better. Yep. And it's not life giving. It is not making your life better. It is simply for the sake of Being separate and, and yeah, and, and separating yourselves from

Shanny: the

Katherine: world. Everyone. Yes. Yes. The people who are not enlightened.

Shanny: Yeah, exactly. Yes. And it was, it was so separate. And like I was saying earlier too, there's no we didn't have a name and for us even. All churches were [00:15:00] bad. Like it wasn't like, Oh, cool. Every, you know, these people are believers, but they just don't meet with us. No, no, no. Like if they don't meet with us.

They're doing it wrong and they're not the right kind of believers. So that was hard to just because again at separation, like I remember one time some of the guys like my age when we were, I don't even know. Yeah. I guess we were teens cause they would have had to be driving. They went to this teeny tiny church that was like on the way to the meeting hall.

They just wanted to like see what the church was like a real church. And they like went in, sat on the back row. And well, someone found out and so they all got rebuked and they had to like, they have to stand up. Like anytime you get in trouble, you'd have to stand up front for going to a church just to

Katherine: visit.

You just be like, I wonder what a church

Shanny: is like. So yeah. So you can imagine all of the [00:16:00] things that Got rebuked from up front. If that got rebuked, it's always, we would call it like rebuke all we would laugh and be like, Oh, you got rebuked the day.

Katherine: Oh my goodness. And, and that's just, I mean I can imagine you were probably just so terrified, like,

Shanny: of

Katherine: like getting in trouble.

What's it going to be. And yep. And it sounds like your family wasn't quite like that, but the community itself was just right. Surveillancy and watching everything you did.

Shanny: Very much, very much. And that's where, and, you know, we had. I'm very thankful for our family like now we're like, good job dad way to be rebellious because we were raised, you know, people say like how did you turn out normal and I'm like, Thank you for calling me normal.

And also our family I feel like how we were raised in our home.[00:17:00] Did. allow us to be somewhat normal. And that's why maybe we're normal today. But we, like I said, we would could wear what we wanted at home. We would sneak movies like we, I remember watching Anna Green Gables because no one, we weren't allowed to watch any TV movies, nothing.

So we would do things like that, that. A majority of people would never, ever have done. We went to Disneyland. We'd get in trouble for it, but we would go. So there was some things, yeah, there were some things that we did that I think made us, allowed us to be a little bit more normal, but you still have that influence.

And then even when we were doing these normal things, you still have that fear of, well, we're having fun at Disneyland, but if they find out what's going to happen, so there's always that, like, even though you can fully

Katherine: enjoy because you're, you're having to hide, hide. And yeah, absolutely. [00:18:00] Yeah, I just, I'm really, really curious how Well, first of all, I like relate a lot with the story.

There are different flavors of it in my upbringing. We home church most of the time, and there wasn't like a, you can't go to church, but there was definitely. This belief that those people were not as solid of Christians as we were and weren't as on fire for God as we were. And we would go visit churches and no church was ever good enough.

And on the way home, we would have roast pastor and my father would just like shred the sermon apart. Like make sure we knew that what was taught there was. Not accurate and not biblical and watered down and whitewashed and that just like very like, oh, we watched films, but there were like so many films that were like off limits.

And [00:19:00] so I remember doing the sneaking thing like when I go out of town, I would go to the library and I would like check out all the movies. The more nudity, the better. And I was just like, just like. Get it all in and also just living with terror that they were going to find out. Oh yeah. Having books that I like hid under my mattress and read after I knew my parents were already in bed.

So they weren't going to be like making the rounds to like check in. And not just that fear of like, like what if and about stupid, stupid stuff. Right. Oh yeah, like it was so dumb that that was like a sign of character or your devotion to God like it just it was so dumb. And so I'm curious, you said that it was like the son of like a leader that eventually came to power and started implementing these rules.

Do you remember? Like [00:20:00] how he got people because it wasn't quite so stringent, like how he got people to do that. Was it like a slow accommodation? Do you remember? I,

Shanny: I don't remember because I was very young at the time. I was. Like born during that time. So I don't remember exactly. I'm sure it was a very slow progression for as many people as they did keep.

But like I said, in the eighties, there was that split of where, you know, people were questioning and that was when he had taken over. And so obviously there were enough people that wanted to stand up to him. And then it took, gosh, 30.

20 more years before another group finally decided this is BS and we're done. So so it was, I'm sure again, I don't really know, but it sounds like it was a slow progression where, and I think when it very first started, it was so long ago that society was different. You know, it was normal [00:21:00] for women to wear the dresses.

It was normal. You know, that was. A normal thing. And then as time moves on and society is changing, we had to stay basically. So it's like you're frozen. And, and then I think that's kind of, I mean, I'm imagining that's what happened is it kind of, Oh, well, it's a rule now. So, and so much of around it. And especially when I think about the men that led overall and still are I think it's a power trip, you know, and they want that control.

They want that power. And they're so prideful that they cannot say, let's, let's take a look at that. I don't know. Yeah, you're right. Let's question it. They're so prideful. And it's so sad because you think, well, gosh, that was 50 years ago. Can we not take a look at that and maybe dissect it a little and decide should we still believe that?

But they're so afraid to be wrong, I think. And I know that that's been a big learning thing for me since being out is realizing [00:22:00] how ingrained that is in me. Like So, I'm mortified of being wrong and, and again, I look back to my childhood. I would never speak up in class or, and it was because I was so embarrassed to be wrong.

And I think that was a huge, is a huge thing that I still deal with. And then also it taught the opposite, I think of what they wanted us to learn, but it taught us to be super good at hiding things. We were like, like you were saying, hiding stuff under your mattress. It was like, you knew. How to hide things.

And it was like, they forced you to be really good at it. And, and then not only were you hiding things physically, maybe, but emotionally you, all you did was stuff. You're feeling stuff, stuff, stuff, never revealing the true you. And so as an adult, you know, now you're trying to figure out like, who am I? And, you know, raising my kids different [00:23:00] and It's, but it's been hard.

It's crazy how ingrained that is. Like, it's just, you know, you sit under that. I was 31 when we got out. So 31 years of sitting in those metal chairs.

Katherine: Yeah. And the difference for you, as opposed to folks who join cults later in life. And, and this is my experience as well, is you're trying to rebuild a self.

When you never had a self to begin with, and you don't have this memory of baseline like this thing that I can return to, even though you experienced the trauma of being in that high control group, you're. Inevitably altered, possibly forever, you, you still have that thing to like, remember, like, I remember what it felt like to have desires and pursue them and to think well of myself and not think, you know, horrible thoughts about myself.

But if you never [00:24:00] knew that, it's hard. It's really hard to, like, recreate a sense of self

Shanny: if you just, yeah, right. Well, and, and even if you did have desires or things you wanted to pursue, it was wrong. So you would feel guilty about having that idea. Like I, women weren't allowed to go to college and I wanted to be a nurse so bad.

And, you know, and that's something I've, I never did. I never followed through with because, you know, by the time I got out, I had kids and, you know, life moves on. But I, you know, it's, it's one of those things that it's like, I felt guilty for wanting to do that. And I knew it wouldn't happen. Like, but

Katherine: so sad.

Yeah. And then, and you feel like Things were stolen from you and yeah, just yeah, and I just, I also just like kind of want to go back to you and mention like these men who like can't be wrong. And I feel like there's a difference between like those men who can't be wrong. And, and [00:25:00] fear of being wrong and like that.

Yes, you know that I experienced that too. This happened like a few months ago. I'm on an improv team and we had a show and I had a bad show. Like I was really tired. I had something really stressful and work happened like right before the show and it wasn't a great show and it just happened to be a show where some of my friends came to watch and it was the first time I had friends.

Watching and it wasn't my best show. So it was like this experience of like, wasn't my best show. This is the first time they're seeing it. They don't know that that wasn't the best thing that I could do. I went on this massive shame spiral for probably 48 hours. And it was really intense. And I knew in my head, this isn't that big of a deal.

Who cares? Have a bad show. Whatever. And it took me a while to unpack just kind of the threads of like, I just grew up in an environment where it was not safe to fail. [00:26:00] And like being wrong was dangerous. And I always felt that way, like, when I was in, like, church situations, and I would get in trouble for something, or get caught out for something, and I would get super defensive, and of course, it's perceived as arrogance that I got defensive, when in reality, it was a trauma response, and I would hate fighting, or, or flighting.

Yep. Because I felt unsafe and I felt it couldn't, it couldn't, it wasn't just, oh, a mistake. Mistakes were dangerous in the world that I grew up in. And, and then there's the, the very arrogant people who actually can't be wrong. Right. They're actually, they're just, they're just human beings.

Shanny: Right.

They just think that they're above human beings and are better than everyone. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I liked that you pointed out that difference because. It's very true. And I think, you know, thinking of like our group and my family in it, there it's, you were, you were afraid to be wrong. And [00:27:00] someone has asked, I forget who it was, was asking something about like the family dynamic and, and the, and the group dynamic.

And it's almost like it didn't even matter what your home life was like with what the group was pushing on you. Because It was such a strong, powerful, fear based thing that, because we had, I had a friend from high school that actually ended up joining our group, and And while she was in high school, so this poor girl by herself or with her family by herself.

Oh, wow. Yeah. She was having like some, some stuff going on at home and found the group and poor thing. What a disaster. And, and, you know, I know you probably talk about this all the time too, but there always is something or can be something that draws someone in. And like for her, it was that sense of community and the family and the love and dah, dah, dah, everything you see from the outside.

Right. That. Besides how we dressed that might be appealing. And and so [00:28:00] she started coming and then within, I mean, honestly, a couple of visits, it was, well, you need to start wearing skirts now and like almost immediately, but I just get so sad for people like that because it's like. You know, maybe home wasn't exactly great, but then you come to this other environment that you think is what you need.

And then you're just destroyed, like, yeah, so, so sad how many lives and I mean what they put the, we called ourselves young people, like when we were young teens but what they put the young people through is. Awful. Like the amount of, Oh, they just so fear and shame based like, Oh, but they bring you up front.

Like if you were caught for anything, basically bring you up front, rebuke you and you'd have to confess, which never were real, of course, because none of us really, we're sorry. And just, but yet also [00:29:00] if you had the right last name and you were in the right position. You would be spared from that. So like someone in one of a girl I grew up with, her dad was, you know, on the list of good people or whatever.

And she had an affair with a married man outside of our group. And it was pushed under the rug and I'm like, Oh my God. Like, and, and, and there was enough of us that knew about it, that it was so damaging. Like that whole concept of like, Oh, she gets away with it. And yet you're dragging everyone else up front and making them confess that they.

Made a mistake. Like, oh my gosh. So it was very hands at

Katherine: home. And yeah, exactly. Oh my goodness. Yeah, because the about like they they'll say this is about like character and, you know, being a godly person, but really it was about elitism [00:30:00] and controlling people which is I mean, that is what those rules are for.

They sell it to you as if it's for your good, but it's not. It's really just to keep you in line and to keep you subservient. Woof!

Shanny: Goodness. Yeah, they did, they did, they did real good at that.

Katherine: Real good. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, like, that happens with a lot of folks who have families. Of origin that just aren't safe and they go to the church, they migrate to the church as like that surrogate family and, and then if they experienced that abuse and that control within that second family, it causes so much damage because most of the time you're internalizing that and thinking it's your fault.

Like, right. This didn't work out because of something wrong with me. It didn't work in my family and it didn't work in the second family. And it's just very very shame based and, and [00:31:00] just, and can cause so much damage. And I'm actually kind of sort of researching that a little bit of the difference between Like someone who experiences abuse when they're an adult in a religious context versus someone who experiences it in a religious context when they came from a family that wasn't stable and wasn't safe.

And like the impact that that has on their faith experience. Yeah. When they didn't have any foundation versus having a foundation and, and what are the, what are the chances? Like, like what, and it's kind of just like abuse in general, if you, except like if you experience abuse as a child, you're more likely to experience it statistically as you get older.

And like, what foundation does a family play? In, in creating someone who retains their faith after abuse versus not anyway,

Shanny: [00:32:00] yeah, and it's so interesting and I think I just did an interview actually the other day with someone who's probably about 10 years older than me from, from my cult and he joined.

And so. He just recently had written a book and so I'm like, I want to have you on the podcast, but I never really knew his story. You know, he was older than me that I'd never, you know, I was a kid or whatever. So it was really interesting, but that's how it was for him. You know, he was incarcerated at 17, had a really rough, you know, life, met someone from this group.

And then what happened is he met a girl who, you know, he falls in love with or whatever. And that's what made him stay. And so then, you know, 30 years later, three kids, adult kids later, he's Getting his family out of the cult, you know, so it's like, and I think so many like that is one of the reasons. And for us, you, you married within your group.

It wasn't like you [00:33:00] went outside of it to get married. And there were a few that came in and it was, I feel so bad for them. And it was so hard.

Katherine: The same for the men to like, they were not allowed to marry outside either.

Shanny: Yeah, they would marry within. Yeah. Yeah. And. But like, so I was mentioning earlier, we would have these like big camps and so we didn't celebrate holidays.

So anytime there was a holiday, we had to be together as a group. So you know, they don't want you to be tempted to like, you know, go look at Christmas lights or anything. So we would have these big camps and the, one of the biggest ones was here in California central California. So we would all drive down there.

Or fly or whatever, get there. And there'd be like, you know, over a thousand people just having meetings all day, basically. It was awful, awful. I hated it. And, but that's where you would kind of. Look for your mate, you know, because it was like, and you, and [00:34:00] you would only see these people maybe a couple times a year.

So you're going to lock it down.

Katherine: Huh. Huh. Before someone else does.

Shanny: Exactly. So it was always like a competition. Like, you know, you're out there on your roller skates skating around and you're like, ah, he's mine. But, but that's where, at 12 years old, I knew who I was gonna marry. And you, and you did, just because it was like, oh, I like him, he likes me, we connect.

And we didn't date, you didn't court, you just liked them. So, yeah, and so I got married at 19. I really wanted to be out of high school before I got married, so I was kind of old. At 19, but yeah, but I really want to get

Katherine: married before they graduated high school. Oh yeah, yeah,

Shanny: like I was engaging

Katherine: high school or were they told, you don't need

Shanny: to finish.

Well, a lot were homeschooled, so I don't, they probably just finished early would be my guess, probably but I feel like, yeah, I don't really know. I know [00:35:00] all the. Yeah. The ones that went to public, I think all finished, but but yeah, so that was fun. So then, yeah, I married young and it was, it was real interesting, real interesting, but yeah.

Katherine: What was the role that like Oh, I want to get into the humor stuff. Like we haven't Oh but was, was there at like, Some kind of camaraderie, simply because you both believed the same things when you got married, or was it like way more complex than they ever gave you credit for?

Shanny: Like why we got married?

Katherine: Well, I was just kind of thinking about the dynamics after you got married.

Shanny: Like, oh, it was, or was it just, Oh no, it was awful. Total disaster. Total disaster. You know, cause you, you live with your parents until the night you're married. It's the first night you ever are away from home. So in the preparation, like even, you know, like churches will do like premarital counseling or you know, something to kind of prepare you if it's like, you [00:36:00] know, like the purity culture and all that.

Like, I feel like they still try to prepare you for marriage. We had nothing, nothing. We would meet with the leader a couple of weeks before you got married. They take you to dinner, him and his wife. Give you this little pamphlet that basically, you know, is like, well, as long as the wife submits to the husband, everything goes great.

And so like, that's your, that's, that's your sex education right there. Luckily, my parents were way better and did like talk to us, but not a ton. And it was always super awkward. So like me with my kids, I'm like, we talk about everything. Yeah. But, and then they, he would recommend, and this is no joke.

That to get a thing of Vaseline.

Which is not creepy at all, coming from this old, crusty, nasty person. And did you know why?

Katherine: Were you like, why? Yeah, yeah, I, I did, yes. Okay. But,

Shanny: but it's like, that's it. Like, [00:37:00] for, I guarantee you, a majority of people that got this talk did not know why.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. . Mm-Hmm. It's

Shanny: just like, so would I, why would no.

Right. Like oh, that seems weird. Mm-Hmm. .

Katherine: For my, I know, I know a lot of people from the community that I grew up in knew nothing about anything like that and had. dry sex dry course, you're supposed to have lube. I'm like, so sad. Like, I'm like, so, so, so, so sad that that was their first experience. You know, just like, Oh, yeah.

Yes. But that is really creepy, too. Oh,

Shanny: so creepy. So creepy. But yeah, and even as you know, aside from the sex part of it, No, no knowledge of living with another person, even, you know, like you've never lived with a roommate and learned how to share, you know, nothing, all the little things. Yes. So it was hell.

It was honestly like, and I, we're still married [00:38:00] which is amazing, but it has not been easy. Yeah. And it has been like, we've had to work really hard to stay married. And. And so many have been divorced that have gotten out, you know, that I grew up with and I don't blame them. Like, I'm like you shouldn't have ever been married.

Yeah. So, I mean, none of us should have. So yeah. So it's been. Extremely hard. So no, because we were brought up the same way, grown up, did not, did not, we did not, yeah, it did not help here. It was awful. No community, like we did not know how to communicate. And again, you know, when you're an individual person and we're talking kids, we were married as kids, you're, you're already internalizing everything.

And so To all of a sudden start sharing things with someone you didn't that's not a

Katherine: natural thing to do They wanted you to have like an intimate relationship with your partner or they did. Well,

Shanny: I mean, I don't think they cared They didn't really care. I don't think [00:39:00] but like I think as a human you want to I mean, I definitely knew like This isn't right.

Like I want more. I thought, well, you just don't even know. You don't know what marriage is going to be like. I had no expectations really, because I didn't, I didn't know. So it was rough and it's been 23 years now, but we made it this far.

Katherine: Okay. What do you think? What do you think kept you like preserved?

Shanny: Things. Well, for God, I don't know. Were you attracted

Katherine: to

Shanny: your spouse? Yes. Oh yeah. Oh, and he is adorable. When we were young, he was so cute. And I mean, he's very handsome. He's yeah. And you know what? Honestly, he's the best one. Like you actually know, we really liked each other and he we've always, and this is, I think, honestly, what has kept us together is we've always been really good friends.

And so like, There was a time in our marriage where it was [00:40:00] just like, okay, maybe, maybe friends is what we're meant to be. Maybe that's it. But we've always been such good friends. And then, we went through so many other things after we were married. Like, we did like, went through like, three years of infertility treatment.

And then we ended up adopting our kids. And those were very traumatic experiences, both of them. And, so, I think Because we had so much other trauma happening, we kind of clung to each other because of that, but I would say it never was like our marriage was awesome during that. It wasn't like, Oh, I feel so supported.

It was like, when I look back, like on the years of infertility, I felt very alone, very alone, even from him, because we didn't know. Like that was years into being married. We still did not know how to really love each other, you know? So I think it's only been probably the last. And it's been four or five years that we really finally [00:41:00] put in the work and made some new commitments to each other and decided, okay, it's either we're done or we need to make some changes.

So, and we have and we, we're happier now than we've ever, ever been. So that's great. And I'm so thankful for it. And he's such a good dad. And so. Yeah, now, now everything's great, but it took us, you know, almost 20 years to get there.

Katherine: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that because I know it's a vulnerable thing to talk about.

Yeah. I feel like I'm encountering more and more stories like that where it ends or there's this really difficult period where they're like assessing like. Yeah, yeah. It's going to work right in your conditioned marriage is what you're going to do. And then you do really young and you have kids really young.

So then you're like really locked in and, and a lot of your choices get taken away. And so having to [00:42:00] like, Make those choices once you're already in it it's really excruciating. So thank you very much for, for sharing. And then as we have a little bit of time left, I really want to talk about by it was so fast and I was so enthralled and kept asking questions.

Yeah, I want to know the role that humor played in your journey and continues to play and your healing journey, recovery journey, your escape journey. Did it play a role in your escape journey?

Shanny: So not so much. But I've always been like my mom's a real funny person. So like when we would do I'm going to try to keep this fast, but when we would do like camps and stuff, we would put on skits.

We always got in trouble because we pushed the envelope, you know, like we always did, but we were, we were like kind of the funny ones, but it was always still so fear based. Cause I remember you'd be so nervous up there knowing what you're going to do is hilarious. And then no, you're going to get talked to afterwards because you went too far.

But so we were always kind of the funny ones. And [00:43:00] Like me and my mom and there was a little group of us, but then when it, when it was time to get out, basically what happened then it was not humor, it was a group of like pretty much our age people and then a lot of our parents started questioning thing like back in the 80s and we pushed harder.

And so. Basically, the cult broke apart, a majority left, they're still, they're still continuing on a little bit everywhere, but a majority of the cult broke apart and we slowly just kind of, everyone went their own ways, kind of. Yeah. So, it was more of a. Just disintegration of it than anything else. Luckily my whole family is out.

My husband, his parents are still in, so that's a little weird. But, but yeah, and it's still causing so much damage. Like it's absolutely disgusting. So hard to

Katherine: watch. It's

Shanny: awful. It's awful. But after that, after getting out very confusing, you know, for us, all churches were bad. [00:44:00] So we really didn't know what to do.

You know, you're kind of just out on your own for the first time as an adult, but not really, because we were so like stunted socially and emotionally. So it was hard. It was a long journey. And it's been 11, 12 years now. And so it's been a long journey. And like I said, we really have just dug in the last like four years as far as doing some real healing.

Yeah. On ourselves and on our marriage, but humor, you know, I've always been kind of this funny ish person and I really started, it was during COVID really when I started doing Tik TOK, Instagram, these like little videos and stuff, and I started feeling a little bit more confident and a little more free with doing it.

And I had always felt even a little bit uncomfortable. What's the word? I don't know, even for my husband to see because again, we, you know, we went, but we had just been through this like big, huge, like, we're going to make some changes. And so it kind of gave me some confidence, like, [00:45:00] Oh, he doesn't really care.

Like even if he doesn't think it's funny, he doesn't care. So it gave me that boost to start doing that. And as I was. And I realized doing these videos and connecting with people online, I realized how much, how healing it was for me and, and it, you know, and I really, at first, didn't think of it that way.

It was just like, yeah, let's do this. It has been the, like, such a huge part of my healing at this point, just realizing, like, yeah, we've dealt with a lot of shit over the years, like, a lot, but it doesn't mean we have to live the rest of our lives, you know, depressed and sad, and I deal with a lot of A lot of a depression a lot, but, but I, this, the humor drags me out of it, you know, and it's like having other people kind of validate like, Oh, you're funny.

It's not like I, in a, like, Oh, I need to be validated kind of way, but it [00:46:00] just, it prompted me to continue. And You know, and now I love it. It's what I, and then I just, you know, it brought me to connect with people like you. I mean, I never would have been connected with so many of people I call friends now if it weren't for that.

And it really connected me to like so many others in cults and from high control groups. And I've created these like amazing relationships and. Support and people like you that I can listen to and that help with the healing and the growth part of this journey, because it sucks, but the humor we, we have to laugh,

Katherine: we have to laugh.

Shanny: Yeah. I just can't even imagine not. Because it would not be good.

Katherine: Yeah. And I love that you highlighted the connection that the humor provides, because I think the humor is great no matter what, but when you're laughing with someone, that like connection and that intimacy that is created when you're laughing [00:47:00] together, like that is so special.

And I think, I don't know if this was your experience, but I, I just remember times laughing. Afterwards, after like leaving an abusive church now like five years ago, I guess and like laughing and having this belly laugh and then just being surprised. That I was able to laugh and like, Oh, I haven't done that in a really, really, really long time.

Like, I didn't really remember that I could do that, could access that. And it's so, it's so freeing in and of itself and so healing to be able to access that. And. And I, I, I also think like, I don't know if this was your experience growing up, but we, we were so conditioned to be working on ourselves. Was that part of your upbringing?

Like be better, be a better [00:48:00] person. Like really? I don't, I think it was more, just listen, just listen to me, please just listen and do whatever

Shanny: they wanted you to be a good Christian, you know, like you need to be A good example in the world. You should always be an example for anyone in the world that sees you.

So, I mean, I guess a little bit. Yes.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that that can like translate to trauma recovery of like, Oh, I need to always be healing. And I need to always be doing these things that will help me heal. And we need to take a

Shanny: break. Yes. Thank you for saying

Katherine: working on ourselves. Have a good time.

Shanny: Thank you. Yes. And it's so true. And like, even part of that is the whole, like, goes back to the perfectionist part and being afraid to do anything wrong and, you know, being defensive and all of that. You're right. It's like, sometimes I, I want to be so good at healing, you know, I'll even have therapy sessions where I'm just like, Oh, [00:49:00] no, everything's great.

How are you? You know,

Katherine: she's like, nope, this is your turn. And I'm like, great, that was your day. You got nothing today. Like,

Shanny: cause I just want to be a good therapy goer, you know?

Katherine: I just want to be good at it. I want to be her favorite client.

Shanny: I do. I want to be teacher's pet. Oh my gosh. Yeah. No, no, no damage done here at

Katherine: all.

I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Well, I'm really glad that we got to laugh together too. I know. Chatting. It has been, it's been really fun. And I'm, I'm really glad that we met. Me too. In person.

Shanny: I know. We're gonna do it again.

Katherine: Together. So it was real, like it

Shanny: really happened. It really did. I'm Yeah, that was amazing to meet you and so many others.

I like, I just treasure that whole weekend. I was just like, Oh my gosh. It was so good.

Katherine: It was so [00:50:00] good. It was such a great weekend. It's like, I still like, even now, got a little ball of sunshine in my, in my heart at the moment. But, and for folks who don't know what we were talking about. Yeah, sorry. The fact that Tears of Eden had a retreat con.

I got out, had a story jam. We kind of meshed them on the same weekend in St. Louis. That's where I met Shani in person. Yes. And we have been the best of friends ever since.

Shanny: And forever more. Yeah. Forever more. As long as I'm the favorite. You know, I

Katherine: have to be the best. I have to be the best. Yes.

We'll sign a contract later. Okay. Perfect. Oh, I love it. Goodness. All right. Well, I'm gonna end this interview. All right. Thank you so much.

 Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

 I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, [00:51:00] please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.