In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Kristin Mockler Young, author of The Other Side of Certainty, for a conversation about what certainty is actually doing for us—and why the thing we were handed as faith might have been a tool for detachment all along.

Topics Covered

* The cynical-but-true reason certainty appeals to people who don’t know what to do with hard emotions or injustice

* Why a faith that shatters and a faith that holds questions often come down to how the hard thing arrived

* What people gain when they trade black-and-white belief for something roomier, and the loss almost nobody escapes

* How certainty gets tangled up with identity and belonging, and why your people find it easier to let you go than face their own dissonance

* The question Kristin is still sitting in, and why she’s not rushing to resolve it

Timestamps:01:00 What Certainty Is Actually Doing for People04:00 The Difference Between Rooting Yourself in God and in What You Know About God09:00 What You Gain and What You Lose14:00 The Disorienting Moment You Notice the Cracks16:00 Authority vs. Power and How We Got Out of Balance17:00 How to Practice Curiosity When You Weren’t Trained For It20:00 Sitting in Not-Knowing Without Rushing23:00 The Question Kristin Hasn’t Resolved25:00 Finding the Book and Kristin’s Work

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In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Tyler Hill for a conversation about what changes when you start your story with belovedness instead of brokenness—and why the exhaustion so many of us carry comes from chasing something we’ve had in our pocket the whole time.

Topics Covered

* The breathwork session that gave Tyler a visceral image of the womb, and what it revealed about his very first knowing

* Henri Nouwen’s three biggest lies (I am what I have, what I do, what others say) and how they become the raw material for a false self

* Why belovedness isn’t spiritual bypassing, and what Tyler learned about it from people in prison who can’t hang their hat on their morality

* The unexpected first spiritual practice Tyler prescribes, and why it involves $100 and an outfit you actually love

* What’s hardest to let go of when you awaken to your true self, and it isn’t the theology

Timestamps:03:00 The Six Months When Everything Fell Apart05:00 “Nothing to Prove, Nothing to Lose” and Why It Felt Like a Lie11:00 Baseball Tyler and the Making of a False Self18:00 The Practical Cost of Living from the False Self22:00 Belovedness That Isn’t Cheap Grace or Positive Thinking26:00 On-Ramps That Don’t Feel Like Obligation30:00 The Burning Bush and the Practice of Curiosity38:00 What You Have to Let Go Of46:00 Why Belovedness Requires a Feminine God47:00 How to Know You’re Living It, Not Just Believing It53:00 Finding Tyler’s Work and Monday Morning Blessings

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In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Kristel Acevedo, author of Liberated at the Cross, for a conversation about what we lose when the cross gets flattened into a single transaction—and why a theology that has been used to justify suffering, silence, and submission might actually be the one that sets us free.

Topics Covered

* Why picking one atonement theory and calling the rest trash doesn’t square with a God who pursues relationship over and over

* What it means that Jesus wasn’t a victim of the cross, and how that reframes the whole event for people who’ve been handed it as guilt

* How liberation theology’s systemic lens challenges the individualism of Western evangelicalism without abandoning personal faith

* Why Kristel spent years downplaying her Latinidad in white-majority spaces, and what changed when someone asked her to write from her culture

* The one thing the church would stop doing if it took liberation at the cross seriously (hint: it involves looking away)

Timestamps:02:00 Beyond Transaction: Meaning and Method at the Cross05:00 When the Cross Has Been Used Against You10:00 Catholic Guilt and the Crucifix That Said “You Did This”13:00 Why “Liberated” and Not Some Other Word18:00 What a Latina Perspective Reveals About the Cross22:00 What the Church Would Stop Doing23:00 What a Cross-Shaped Life Actually Looks Like24:00 Finding the Study and Kristel’s Work

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In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Elizabeth Berget, author of Love Like a Mother, for a conversation about what happens when we take maternal metaphors for God as seriously as paternal ones—and why the church’s exclusion of feminine language for God isn’t just theologically incomplete but leaves women spiritually homeless in motherhood.

Topics Covered

* What gets quietly excluded when “God the Father” is our only or primary image

* How the Hebrew word for God’s compassion (rachum) in Exodus 34:6—God’s first self-description—is tied to the word for womb (rechem)

* How motherhood becomes a spiritual desert when your brain changes more than any other point in life (including puberty) but nobody tells you to expect your faith to change, and churches assume laziness instead of recognizing you’re doing a lot

* The disconnect between how motherhood is emphasized in church circles but under-resourced spiritually

* What’s at stake if we keep handing people a God who can only be described in paternal terms

Timestamps:

01:00 What We Describe and Exclude with “God the Father”

06:00 All God Language Is Metaphor (We Forgot That)

10:00 Why Motherhood Feels Like a Spiritual Desert

16:00 Rachum: God’s Maternal Compassion Lost in Translation

23:00 Embodied Verbs and the Incarnational God

29:00 What Spiritual Formation Actually Looks Like for Mothers

35:00 What’s at Stake When We Exclude Feminine Language

37:00 Finding the Book and Elizabeth’s Work

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Celeste Irwin for an honest conversation about what it’s like to be trans in Christian spaces—from childhood shame over “transy thoughts” with no language for them, to losing every friend when coming out, to discovering that transition feels like being literally raised to life.

Celeste Irwin is a transgender, lesbian woman and a survivor of a spiritually abusive evangelical church network. She’s written in-depth about her experiences in that network, and she now writes and speaks about issues affecting transgender people, including queer inclusion in Christian spaces.

Topics Covered

* Why even as a child Celeste knew “this is the thing I can’t confess”—different from sins you talk about in small group, this was something that would “really mess stuff up” if she stared at it too long

* The cost of exile like losing most friends when leaving evangelicalism, then losing the rest when coming out as trans

* What churches miss without trans people:

* Why queer exclusion is spiritual abuse

* The three things Celeste is tired of saying but will say for us anyway:

* How the movie Moana captures trans joy best

Timestamps:

02:00 Primary School “Transy Thoughts” and Unconfessable Shame

10:00 The Cost of Exile: Losing 20-Year Friendships

14:00 What the Church Loses Without the Trans Limb

22:00 Names, Identity, and “Your Identity Should Be in Christ”

28:00 Three Things Celeste Is Tired of Saying (But Will Say Again)

36:00 Why Becoming Affirming Requires Actual Repentance

40:00 What Intellectual Arguments Miss: The People

46:00 Trans Joy: Skirt Go Spinny and Te Fiti’s Heart Restored

54:00 What a Church That Genuinely Welcomes Trans People Looks Like

58:00 The Pride Month Challenge: Education Work Required

Links

https://www.celestefinally.com

https://www.youtube.com/@Celestial-Navigation

https://www.notovercome.org

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Join me and Alisha Roth for a honest conversation about what it takes to leave a marriage when you’ve done everything “right”—the Christian college, the missionary training, the four daughters—and why the church’s fear and control around divorce leaves women trapped in unsafe situations.

Topics Covered

* The question that changed everything and why the answer unlocked self-love Alisha couldn’t access when it was just about her own safety

* Why “your husband has a right to your body” made it impossible to trust what her body already knew, and how one therapist naming abuse as abuse cracked open the church bubble keeping her trapped

* The stat the church doesn’t want you to know

* Why women who choose to leave face different judgment than women who get left

* What happened when Alisha’s therapist refused to tell her whether to get divorced—and why learning that taking ownership of your own life (instead of keeping everyone else happy) is the holy work

Timestamps:

01:00 When Everything Looks Right But Something’s Wrong

05:00 Having Someone Name the Abuse Changes Everything

10:00 Why the Church Blames Women Who Leave

15:00 Fear, Control, and Managing God’s Image

20:00 Finding Hope and Community After Loss

24:00 Why It Matters to Talk About Choosing to Leave

29:00 Taking Ownership: “I Have to Make This Decision”

32:00 Rebuilding Faith: Love Over Rules

35:00 Finding the Book and Alisha’s Work

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Join us for this podcast crossover episode! I’m bringing you our I Read Something Bad discussion about bad Christian art. If you’re into spicy fantasy books and spiritual formation, check out I Read Something Bad Podcast biweekly!

Today your Matron Saints of Spice are tackling the ever-controversial question of why so much Christian art feels thin, didactic, and aesthetically weak—and just plain BAD.

We’re getting real about how flattening the Bible into surface-level application points has destroyed our capacity to engage layers in any medium, why making Ruth and Boaz into a love story completely misses the point about welcoming the stranger, and how capitalism turned humans into resources to be used up—which means our entire identity got wrapped up in usefulness instead of Imago Dei.

Topics Covered:

* The definition of good art as opening perception and making room for the reader versus bad art that reduces experience to propaganda with predetermined conclusions

* Why Christian art often fails the hospitality test—inviting someone over just to lecture them about what to believe instead of offering actual coffee and conversation

* Post-Reformation history of shifting from visual imagery (icons, stained glass) to language-only emphasis, and how the printing press made accessibility a priority that accidentally flattened everything

* The Enlightenment’s need for certainty, empirical knowledge, and being on the same page—which bled into making messages crystal clear at the expense of mystery and layers

* How “Facing the Giants” versus “Remember the Titans” shows the difference between heavy-handed Christian messaging and wrestling with justice/humanity through storytelling

* Why Ruth and Boaz isn’t a romance about finding your person—it’s about Boaz depicting how Jesus welcomes strangers and provides for the vulnerable (Ruth said “where you go I will go” to NAOMI, people)

* The collapse of context and layers in Bible reading, and how treating Scripture as flat application points instead of artistic literature kills our ability to engage depth anywhere else

* How usefulness became our framework for existence instead of beauty, and why that’s devastating when your productivity disappears but you’re still made in the image of a creative God

Good art invites wonder and makes space for mystery. Bad art tells you exactly what to think and then wonders why you’re not engaged. 🎨✝️📖

Timestamps:

02:00 Defining Good Art: Hospitality vs Heavy-Handed Messaging

06:00 Intimacy and Openness as Framework for Beauty

09:00 Why People Want to Be Told What to Think vs Asking Questions

11:00 Facing the Giants vs Remember the Titans: What We’re Wrestling With

14:00 Stained Glass Windows vs Sharpie Statements: Losing the Layers

16:00 Post-Reformation Shift from Visual to Language-Only Emphasis

20:00 Teen Talent Competitions and Performing for God’s Glory

23:00 When Church Art Became Branded Word Art from Hobby Lobby

25:00 Iconoclasm and What We Lost by Rejecting Visual Beauty

28:00 Ruth and Boaz Isn’t a Love Story About Finding Your Person 3

1:00 Reading the Bible with Layers: Literature, Language, Lifetime, Lenses

34:00 Why Translation Is Always Interpretation

37:00 Ruth After Proverbs 31: She’s the Woman of Valor, Actually

39:00 When Usefulness Disappears and You Lose Your Framework for Beauty

41:00 Imago Dei Isn’t Broken or a Mission to Accomplish—It Just Is

43:00 Capitalism Turned Humans Into Resources to Be Used Up

45:00 Creating Without Goals: The Church Art Studio Experiment

47:00 Redeeming Love Scammed Us (The Bible Story Is Different, Y’all)

50:00 Mount Pilgrim’s Stained Glass: Good Christian Art That Inspires Justice

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In this episode …

Topics Covered

* Understanding the difference between performance and presence

* How busyness and transactional living keeps us from noticing sacredness, but the deeper barrier is internal fear—not of other people but of what we might reveal if we stopped performing and showed up authentic

* Why conversation as sacrament doesn’t mean using Christianese or performing religiosity, but practicing noticing these moments as important (maybe even sacred) until you graduate into sensing holiness far more often than you used to

* The radical claim that if you just pay attention you’d find one or two moments that were everything you’ve been looking for in the next week

* Changing our mindset around interactions to being sacred rather than battlefields

Timestamps:

01:00 Everyday Sacredness and the Fear People Will Miss It

04:00 Reclaiming “Church” as the Space Between Us

09:00 Performance vs. Presence: The Conditioning That Keeps Us Safe

14:00 Finding Freedom to Just Be in the Pews

19:00 What Keeps Us from Seeing the Ordinary as Holy

26:00 The Holy Work of Silence and Listening

31:00 Abiding in the Vine: Relationship as Spiritual Practice 3

6:00 Practicing Sacred Conversation Like Crooked Yoga

40:00 What Changes When We Notice This Moment Matters

43:00 Finding the Book and the Between Ministry

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In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Shannan Martin, author of Counterweights, for a grounding conversation about how her dad’s blue-collar farm wisdom—”carry something equally heavy in the other hand”—became a daily practice for staying upright in a world that feels increasingly overwhelming.

Rather than focusing on “toxic positivity” or the “count your blessings” mantra, Shannan teaches us to honestly name the weights we carry and intentionally find counterweights that pull us back to center so we can keep breathing through the chaos and moving toward justice without burning out.

Topics Covered

* How a blue-collar dad’s practical advice about carrying heavy things to the barn became a metaphor for pulling ourselves back to center when we’re lurching under the weight of collective trauma and constant news cycles

* Understanding counterweights as different from gratitude or mindfulness

* Why the “abundant life” Jesus promised isn’t prosperity gospel glitter but getting all of it

* Learning from incarcerated people at the work release center what accessible counterweights look like

* How protecting your peace can mean staying engaged and bearing witness to trauma (especially for those with power and privilege) rather than opting out

* Why counterweights are always happening and how naming them with intention increases capacity for moving toward justice

Timestamps:

01:00 Defining Counterweights: Dad’s Blue-Collar Wisdom

05:00 Why This Cultural Moment Needs This Practice

11:00 The Abundant Life: We Get It All

16:00 Avoiding Toxic Positivity While Staying Grounded

21:00 Accessible Counterweights: From Cabinet Scrubbing to Dancing

27:00 Learning from Incarcerated Neighbors About What’s Accessible

32:00 Beauty as Emergency: Increasing Capacity for Justice Work

37:00 Finding the Book and Shannan’s Work

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In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Joash Thomas, author of The Justice of Jesus, for a conversation about how colonization shaped Western Christianity to resist justice, and what recovering our authentic identities—indigenous, spiritual, and human—has to do with embodying the gospel Jesus actually preached.

The Western church’s complicity in colonization didn’t just harm the Global South, it also robbed Western Christians of their own indigenous practices and created theology that privileges the spiritual over the physical in ways Jesus never did, and how prayer can be the formative work that transforms us into instruments of justice.

Topics Covered

* Understanding colonization not as a political buzzword but as lived reality: India went from 25% of world GDP in 1700 to 1% in 1947 after British extraction, and the Western church was largely on the side of oppressors, excusing colonial theft in theological language

* Why the gospel being “more spiritual than physical” is colonized theology that doesn’t come from Jesus of Nazareth, whose ministry in Luke 4 explicitly defined good news as setting captives free both physically and spiritually

* How empires steal identity by conditioning us to forget who we are beyond labels like “just American” or “just Christian,” and why recovering indigeneity—whether Celtic Christianity or St. Thomas Indian Christianity—reveals pre-colonial traditions offensive to empire

* The prophetic journey from outrage to love: starting angry about injustice (righteous and necessary) but being transformed to see Christ in enemies, transcending trauma to become wounded healers rather than perpetuating violence in words or deeds

* Why reimagining prayer as formative rather than just intercessory—praying with marginalized communities, not just for them—creates the sustainable oxygen advocates need for long-term justice work without burnout

Timestamps:

01:00 From India to America: Learning Power from the Margins

09:00 Justice as Gospel in Global South vs. “Woke Marxism” in America

15:00 How Colonization Stole Western Christians’ Identities Too

20:00 Loving the Church While Critiquing It

27:00 The Prophet’s Journey from Outrage to Love

32:00 Can Western Churches Pursue Justice? (Yes, Here’s How)

38:00 Reframing Mission: Encountering Jesus in the Margins

45:00 Prayer as the Formative Work of Justice

49:00 Finding the Book and Connecting with Joash

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