In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Mandy Capehart, author of Restorative Grief, for an intimate conversation about how faith deconstruction is actually a complex grief process that affects every dimension of our lives.

This isn't just about changing your theology—it's about recognizing that when we deconstruct faith, we're grieving the loss of safety, belonging, community, identity, and even our relationship with our own bodies. Mandy offers a compassionate framework for understanding why this process is so difficult and how healing can happen holistically.

Mandy Capehart is a grief educator, somatic practitioner, and author of Restorative Grief. She hosts the Restorative Grief podcast and leads the Restorative Grief Project, a supportive online community. Her work focuses on helping people understand grief as a holistic experience that involves heart, mind, body, and spirit.

Topics Covered

* Understanding faith deconstruction as a layered grief process that involves losing "the systems and structures that have really shaped our sense of safety, belonging, and community," not just changing beliefs about theology or biblical interpretation

* How leaving faith communities mirrors other major life transitions like divorce or coming out, particularly when "we have disrupted our foundation" and can no longer rely on our faith as the solid rock during other difficulties

* The difference between fitting in and true belonging, and how many people discover they were conditionally accepted in their faith communities only when they could edit themselves to match expectations rather than bring their full selves

* Why intellectualizing deconstruction can become a protective strategy that creates "an illusion of control" while avoiding the necessary work of processing how these changes affect us emotionally and somatically in our bodies

* How faith communities often suppress connection to our physical selves, leading to embodied symptoms like "tightness in their throat, in their chest" and the inability to speak authentically when our voices have been deemed unsafe or invalid

* The transformative power of learning to "take up space" and speak with authenticity, even when it means risking correction or disagreement, and finding safety in being humbled while maintaining belonging

Timestamps:

01:00 What Are We Actually Grieving in Faith Deconstruction?

05:00 Beyond Theology: How Environment and Values Shape Us

11:00 Why Faith Deconstruction Looks Like Divorce

18:00 Grieving Community and the Loss of Belonging

23:00 Identity Grief: When Labels and Roles No Longer Fit

29:00 How Grief and Transition Show Up in Our Bodies

36:00 Learning to Take Up Space and Use Our Voices

40:00 Restorative Grief: Finding Safety in the Eye of the Storm

47:00 Finding Mandy's Work and Resources

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In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, we continue our deep dive into 2 Samuel with Kate Boyd, Jenai Auman, and Liz Daye — examining chapter 20 and its stark contrasts between violence and peacemaking, power and wisdom.

This isn't just ancient history—it's a cautionary tale about what happens when leaders prioritize power over God's vision of shalom, and how the pursuit of control creates systems that harm the most vulnerable while claiming to restore order.

Topics Covered

* How Sheba's rebellion represents a more serious threat to David's kingdom than Absalom's revolt, with "all the men of Israel" deserting David and foreshadowing the eventual split of the kingdom that echoes this same rallying cry

* Understanding Joab's brutal murder of Amasa as the physical embodiment of David's strategic manipulation—both men eliminate threats to maintain power, but Joab does openly what David orchestrates from behind the scenes

* Examining the treatment of David's ten concubines as property that gets "handled" rather than cared for, showing how David's view of women as disposable objects extends from Michal to these women who are condemned to live "as widows until the day of their death"

* The contrast between male violence and female wisdom through the unnamed "wise woman" who speaks in poetry to negotiate peace, representing the biblical pattern of women stepping up to end conflicts when men create chaos through their pursuit of power

* How the concept of shalom differs from simple peace or absence of conflict—it represents "the harmony between things and the right relatedness of things," a holistic vision of flourishing that stands in stark opposition to David's hierarchical kingdom

* Why the chapter's ending list of David's officials, including someone "over forced labor," reveals a kingdom that has abandoned God's Torah vision and adopted the oppressive practices of surrounding empires, directly contradicting Israel's identity as people freed from slavery

Timestamps:

01:00 Sheba's Rebellion: A More Serious Threat Than Absalom

03:00 Joab's Betrayal Kiss: Violence to Maintain Power

06:00 The Concubines: How David "Handles" Women as Property

10:00 The Wise Woman: Poetry, Peace, and Maternal Protection

16:00 Shalom vs. Power: Two Visions of Community

24:00 God's Absence and the Politics of David's Kingdom

28:00 David as the god of Christian Nationalism

33:00 Reading Narrative as Literature: Seeing the Bigger Picture

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Rohadi, author of When We Belong, for a provocative conversation about the difference between progressive Christianity and truly decolonized faith.

This isn't about finding a more liberal church or updating your theology—it's about fundamentally reimagining what liberative community looks like when we center marginalized voices and embody radical love ethics in our neighborhoods and daily lives.

Rohadi is an author, speaker, and community leader who focuses on decolonizing Christianity and embodied spiritual practices. He leads an online faith community called A Beautiful Table and hosts the podcast series "Farewell Evangelicalism." His upcoming book on embodied meditations will be released in 2026.

Topics Covered

* Why leaving white evangelicalism for progressive or liberal churches often replicates the same harmful patterns, as recent data shows most "liberal" denominations still vote majority Republican and maintain foundational issues with ableism and white supremacy

* Understanding how evangelical formation is designed to control bodies, particularly women and children, and why those who don't conform to white male, cisgender, able-bodied norms will "never belong fully" regardless of theological adjustments

* The crucial difference between knowledge and embodied wisdom—why reading books about justice isn't the same as participating in liberative community that seeks "right repair unto right relationship" with land, people, and resources

* How decolonizing faith requires listening to indigenous voices and resistance movements specific to the land where your feet touch, rather than seeking universal solutions or centering white voices in leadership

* Exploring embodied spiritual practices like body scans and breath work that help reclaim the body after evangelical teachings that promote distrust and disconnection from physical experiences and emotions

* Why truly liberative communities are found "on the margins"—in recovery churches, queer churches, and racialized communities—and how white people can join existing movements without needing to lead or start their own organizations

Timestamps:

01:00 Beyond Evangelicalism: Progressive vs. Decolonized Faith

04:00 How Evangelical Formation Controls Bodies and Margins

09:00 The Lifelong Process of Unlearning White Supremacist Patterns

14:00 Moving Slow: Relationships, Grief, and Embodied Wisdom

21:00 Living in Tension: Safety, Community, and Vulnerability

26:00 Whose Traditions? Questioning Christian Orthodoxy and Authority

33:00 Embodying Radical Love Ethics in Local Context

f37:00 Finding Rohadi's Work and Resources

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Lisa Colon DeLay, author of The Way of the Desert Elders, for an illuminating conversation about ancient Christian wisdom that speaks directly to modern faith struggles.

This isn't just church history—it's a roadmap for Christians navigating the tension between empire and authentic discipleship, offering embodied practices for healing religious trauma and rebuilding faith after deconstruction.

Lisa Colon DeLay is a pastor, author, and host of the Spark My Muse podcast. Her work focuses on spiritual formation and connecting modern Christians with ancient wisdom traditions. She's also the author of The Wild Land Within and offers resources for spiritual practices rooted in early Christian traditions.

Topics Covered

* How the Desert Fathers and Mothers (300-600 AD) responded when Christianity became corrupted by political power and empire, creating communities that prioritized devotion over career advancement and cultural status

* Understanding the nine "afflicting thoughts" (later developed into the seven deadly sins) as a holistic framework addressing body, mind, and spirit—not moral failings but predictable challenges that arise when pursuing spiritual growth

* Why healing from religious trauma requires embodied practices, not just cognitive processing, and how ancient spiritual disciplines can help integrate the physical, emotional, and spiritual dimensions of faith

* The essential role of spiritual mentorship in faith reconstruction, contrasting the Desert tradition of pairing every seeker with a spiritual mother or father against modern evangelicalism's individualistic approach to spiritual growth

* Exploring the practice of "vigil"—waiting expectantly on God as an active spiritual discipline that reorients us from productivity-based faith to relationship-based presence with the divine

* How ancient wisdom addresses modern challenges like spiritual overwhelm, digital distraction, and the temptation of "acedia" (spiritual boredom), offering practices for slowing down and creating space for intimacy with God

Timestamps:

00:52 Who Were the Desert Fathers and Mothers?

02:00 Empire and Faith: When Church Meets Political Power

05:00 Embodied Spirituality vs. Head-Centered Faith

09:00 Rebuilding Faith Through Ancient Community Models

13:00 The Nine Afflicting Thoughts: Body, Mind, Spirit 1

8:00 What Would Concern and Encourage the Desert Elders Today?

21:00 Productivity vs. Faithfulness: Redefining Spiritual Success

26:00 The Practice of Vigil: Active Waiting on God

30:00 Finding Lisa's Work and Resources

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In 2 Samuel 19, we witness David's complicated return to power after Absalom's death—a chapter that reveals the messy intersection of grief, politics, and justice.

Through three pivotal encounters on his journey back to Jerusalem, we see how David's approach to leadership prioritizes political expediency over genuine justice, particularly in his heartbreaking dismissal of Mephibosheth's legitimate grievances.

This chapter serves as a sobering preview of the kingdom's coming division, showing us the cost of leadership that values loyalty over righteousness and efficiency over authentic relationship.

Topics We Cover

* How David's public mourning for Absalom gets shut down by Joab, leading to immediate political maneuvering that reveals the performative nature of his subsequent "mercy"

* Examining David's encounters with Shimei (performative forgiveness), Mephibosheth (dismissive injustice), and Barzillai (transactional loyalty) as a study in how power corrupts discernment

* Why David's unjust ruling that divides Saul's land represents both a violation of Torah justice and literary foreshadowing of the kingdom's eventual split

* How David's calculated mercy exposes a broader cultural pattern of transactional relationships that prioritizes political gain over authentic love and loyalty

* Exploring how David's "move fast and break things" approach to leadership reflects systems that value efficiency over people, ultimately fracturing both family and kingdom

Timestamps:

01:42 David's Return to Jerusalem

05:13 David's Grief and Political Maneuvering

10:05 Joab's Role and David's Struggles

13:33 Generational Trauma and Loyalty

19:51 David's Strategic Forgiveness

25:20 Chronological and Literary Analysis

27:02 The Impact of David's Actions on Mephibosheth

30:11 David's Strategic Kindness and Manipulation

33:58 The Exhaustion of Maneuvering in a Toxic System

38:39 Foreshadowing the Split of the Kingdom

44:43 Takeaways

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Rev. Dr. Malcolm Foley, author of The Anti-Greed Gospel, for a bold conversation about money, power, and faith that most churches avoid.

This is about more than stewardship. It's a prophetic call to reimagine what Christian community could look like when we take Jesus' economic teachings seriously.

Rev. Dr. Malcolm Foley serves as special advisor to the President for equity and campus engagement at Baylor University and co-pastors Mosaic Waco, an intentionally multicultural church in Waco, TX. He has written for Christianity Today, The Anxious Bench, and Mere Orthodoxy.

Topics Covered

* Understanding how Jesus identified money/riches as the primary rival to God for human devotion, and why this spiritual reality demands material responses in how we live and share resources

* How the pursuit of cheap labor and expanded markets drove the development of racial categories as justification for exploitation, creating what Foley calls "a demonic cycle of self-interest"

* Exploring how American Christianity has separated racial justice from economic justice, focusing on generosity and stewardship while avoiding discussions of greed, class, and systemic exploitation

* The difference between generous giving that maintains power imbalances and true solidarity that seeks equality and mutual exchange, as modeled in 2 Corinthians 8

* How to read texts like the Sermon on the Mount without softening their radical economic demands, believing that "by the Spirit we can" live into Jesus' vision of community sharing and mutual care

Timestamps:

00:52 Discussing Money and Greed in the Bible

01:37 Mammon and Its Implications

03:03 Greed, Generosity, and Economic Justice

10:26 Historical Context of Greed and Racism

16:09 Economic Justice and the Church's Role

24:36 Concluding Thoughts and Encouragement

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, host Kate Boyd sits down with Julia Rocchi to explore how design thinking principles can transform our approach to spiritual questioning. Julia, a practicing Roman Catholic with expertise in design thinking and facilitation, shares how asking better questions—rather than seeking definitive answers—can deepen our faith journey and create space for mystery and growth.

This conversation offers practical tools for those navigating doubt, deconstruction, or simply wanting to cultivate a more curious and expansive relationship with God.

Topics Covered

* Design Thinking Meets Faith: How principles from design thinking—particularly the art of asking strong, open-ended questions—can enhance spiritual exploration and move us beyond binary thinking

* Questions as Tools, Not Threats: Reframing spiritual questioning as complementary to faith rather than opposing it, and understanding how curiosity can foster humility, compassion, and spiritual growth

* The Design Thinking Examen: A practical, step-by-step spiritual practice that adapts traditional Ignatian reflection with design thinking principles to help process life's challenges through productive questioning

* Community and Embodied Faith: The vital role of community in spiritual questioning, including how sharing questions out loud transforms them and how healthy faith communities can enhance rather than restrict our spiritual curiosity

* Productive Tension in Prayer: Embracing discomfort and uncertainty as valuable aspects of spiritual practice, learning to sit with questions rather than rushing toward answers

Timestamps:

01:47 Understanding Design Thinking

05:10 The Power of Questions in Faith

12:58 Design Thinking Tactics for Spiritual Growth

16:35 Incorporating Questions into Spiritual Practice

22:42 The Role of Community in Spiritual Questions

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, host Kate Boyd welcomes back guest Sharifa Stevens to discuss her new book about prayer and poems. Their conversation explores how many Christians struggle with barriers to authentic prayer, often feeling they must approach God in a "perfect" way. Sharifa shares her journey toward understanding that there's no wrong way to bring our full selves to God, and how harmful theology has created unnecessary barriers between believers and authentic spiritual connection.

Sharifa Stevens is a writer, poet, speaker, and singer. She is the daughter of Jamaican immigrants, born and raised in New York, and currently resides with her family in Dallas, Texas. She graduated from Columbia University in New York with a bachelor’s degree in African American Studies before earning a master’s in theology from Dallas Theological Seminary. Sharifa aspires to use writing as a vehicle that moves readers to intersect with the sacred and the honest. She co- authored Only Light Can Do That and contributed to the books Vindicating the Vixens, Rally, and Lecrae’s upcoming Set Me Free. Sharifa is married to a Renaissance man and is a mother to two lively boys.

Topics Covered:

* Barriers to prayer that many experience, including the feeling that we can't approach God with certain struggles or that we need to be in an "almost heavenly state of being" to pray

* How performance-based faith and "worm theology" (focusing on our unworthiness) creates voids in our relationship with God and prevents authentic connection

* The impact of gender on spiritual experiences, particularly how women are often infantilized in church contexts and discouraged from spiritual autonomy

* How our bodies often signal when we're holding back parts of ourselves due to fear, and why vulnerability can be difficult after negative experiences

* The value of written prayers and spiritual resources that give us language when we can't find our own words to express our experiences to God

Timestamps:

02:06 Understanding Prayer and Barriers

06:14 Personal Experiences with Prayer

08:53 The Impact of Theology on Self-Perception

21:34 The Role of Women in Faith and Society

27:12 Jesus and His Treatment of Women

28:34 Modern Conversations on Women's Roles

30:03 The Impact of Bad Theology

35:18 Navigating Faith and Mental Health

38:46 The Importance of Community and Self-Trust

44:04 Embracing Emotions and Coping Mechanisms

46:35 The Role of Compassion in Faith

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, we dive deep into one of the most bizarre and tragic chapters in the David narrative - the death of Absalom. Set against the backdrop of a father-son civil war, 2 Samuel 18 tells the surreal story of Absalom getting caught in a tree while riding a mule, and Joab's brutal decision to kill him despite David's explicit command to "deal gently" with his son. We explore the literary complexity of this text, including surprising parallels to Jesus' death, the politics of empire, and the profound cost of unchecked power dynamics within families and kingdoms.

Topics Covered

* The absurd circumstances of Absalom's death - How Absalom gets stuck in an oak tree while riding a mule and the darkly comic elements that make this biblical narrative so memorable

* Literary parallels between Absalom and Jesus - The striking similarities including hanging from a tree, betrayal, burial under stones, and the presence of multiple messengers racing to deliver news

* Joab's defiance and the exploitation of the Cushite messenger - How Joab deliberately ignores David's command and sends a foreign messenger (the Cushite) to deliver the devastating news, highlighting issues of belonging and exploitation of marginalized people

* David's dual role as king and father - The tension between David's political needs as a ruler and his emotional devastation as a father, including the shift from calling Absalom "the young man" to "my son"

* The broader costs of empire and injustice - How this tragic family drama reflects larger themes about the price of power, the perpetuation of cycles of violence, and the missed opportunity to address injustice against Tamar that started the whole conflict

Timestamps:

01:09 Recap of David and Absalom's Conflict

02:07 The Battle and Absalom's Fate

03:17 Joab's Defiance and Absalom's Death

04:40 The Aftermath and David's Mourning

05:26 Literary Parallels with the Crucifixion

21:12 Joab's Role and the Cushite Messenger

27:17 David's Dual Roles and Moral Dilemmas

32:18 Takeaways

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

Join Kate and Liz Charlotte Grant as they explore how to approach Scripture when traditional, literal interpretations no longer serve believers who are deconstructing or reframing their faith. Grant shares her journey of finding new ways to engage with biblical texts through literary analysis, diverse commentators, and interdisciplinary connections.

Liz Charlotte Grant is an award-winning essayist, author of the Empathy List substack, and her debut book, a personal, interdisciplinary commentary on the book of Genesis, Knock at the Sky: Seeking God in Genesis After Losing Faith in the Bible is available now.

Topics Covered:

* How traditional methods of reading the Bible, especially within White American Evangelicalism, have been limiting and sometimes harmful, and why new approaches are needed for those reframing their faith

* The importance of diverse voices in biblical interpretation, particularly from women, people of color, and other historically excluded groups who offer fresh perspectives beyond the dominant white male theological tradition

* Grant's creative approach to Genesis through interdisciplinary connections—linking biblical stories to art, science, and literature to illuminate scripture in new ways

* The distinction between factual accuracy and deeper truth in scripture, and why approaching the Bible through a literary lens can reveal profound insights without requiring historical literalism

* Practical advice for those wanting to re-engage with the Bible after deconstruction, including starting with commentaries, trusting your own reading, and creating a diverse "table" of interpretive voices

Grant's book uses creative writing and non-traditional sources to approach Genesis with fresh eyes, demonstrating how scripture can remain meaningful even after one's relationship with the Bible has fundamentally changed.

Timestamps:

01:12 Reframing Faith and Reading the Bible

01:49 Challenges of Traditional Biblical Interpretation

04:43 The Importance of Diverse Perspectives

10:18 Creative and Literary Approaches to the Bible

11:19 Truth vs. Historicity in Biblical Texts

17:12 Why Return to the Bible?

18:06 The Making of the Bible: A Complex Process

19:57 The Sinai Sisters: Manuscript Hunters

23:19 Catherine Bushnell: A Pioneer for Women in the Bible

26:41 Judith Butler: An Artist's Voice

32:24 Reengaging with the Bible: Tools and Tips

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe