In this episode, I sit down with Zach Lambert, author of Better Ways to Read the Bible, for an honest conversation about how to read the Bible in ways that bring life instead of harm.

This isn’t just about finding better interpretations—it’s about recognizing how literalism, apocalypticism, moralism, and hierarchy have damaged real people, and learning to read Scripture through lenses that center Jesus, context, flourishing, and fruitfulness instead. Zach offers both deconstruction of harmful patterns and reconstruction of life-giving practices for engaging with the Bible.

Topics Covered

* How a college professor’s simple assignment to research women like Deborah, Junia, Phoebe, and Priscilla shattered Zach’s assumptions about women’s roles in the church, and why 80% of his class changed their minds after one week

* Understanding the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy as a recent invention designed to police theological borders by saying “if you disagree with our interpretation, you’re not a Christian”—a form of spiritual abuse that weaponizes God’s name for human control

* Why the “apocalypse lens” (obsession with end times, rapture, hell, and judgment) is so pervasive in American evangelicalism: it’s incredibly effective at controlling people through fear, and has influenced American foreign policy for 75 years through Left Behind theology

* Learning from a Jewish rabbi that the Bible’s authority comes from its multiplicity of truths—like a crystal refracting light differently depending on who’s reading—rather than excavating one singular “correct” interpretation for every verse

* Reframing “God hates divorce” through context and flourishing lenses: understanding that divorce commandments were exclusively given to men in a patriarchal society where divorce was often a death sentence for women, not a universal prohibition against leaving abusive marriages

* How humility and healthy diverse community are the essential ingredients for reading Scripture well—because white clergy’s unanimous biblical defense of chattel slavery wouldn’t have survived if they’d been in equitable community with Black people

Timestamps:

01:00 The Assignment That Changed Everything About Women

06:00 Separating Biblical Inspiration from Human Interpretation

10:00 Social Location and Who Gets Called “Just Theology”

16:00 The Chicago Statement as Spiritual Abuse Tool

21:00 Why Apocalypse Lens Dominates American Evangelicalism

30:00 Detoxing Harmful Patterns Through Humility and Community

35:00 Reframing “God Hates Divorce” Through Healing Lenses

42:00 What Makes God Angry According to the Prophets

45:00 Leading a Church Through Interpretive Diversity

47:00 Finding Zach’s Work and Upcoming Book

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Jared Stacy, author of the forthcoming book Reality in Ruins, for a nuanced conversation about why conspiracy theories have become so pervasive in evangelical Christianity and what the church can do about it.

This isn’t just about QAnon or stolen elections—it’s about understanding how evangelicalism’s theology of persecution, end-times anxiety, and individualism creates fertile ground for conspiracism, and how reclaiming the whole story of Jesus offers a way forward that doesn’t require us to become fact-checkers but truth-tellers in our own key.

Topics Covered

* Understanding conspiracy theory as “functional reality” that provides people not just a lens for interpreting the world but prescribes specific actions—like how belief in a stolen election motivated the January 6th Capitol attack

* Why evangelicals are particularly susceptible to conspiracy thinking: the combination of persecution complex, end-times theology giving conspiracies a “theological charge,” and modern individualism that seeks control through claiming secret knowledge

* How evangelicalism’s witness to the gospel grants conspiracy theories plausibility by packaging spurious claims as “what good faithful Christians believe,” making it feel like apostasy to question them rather than just correcting misinformation

* The historical pattern of conspiracy theories serving evangelical responses to cultural anxieties—from George Whitfield using gospel preaching to prevent slave revolts, to Cold War anti-communism, to contemporary fears about losing white Christian America

* Why confronting conspiracy theories head-on with facts or mockery only leads to deeper entrenchment, and what questions like “why do you need this to be true?” or “why is that good news to you?” can open up instead

* How the church can resist conspiracism not by becoming fact-checkers but by being constituted as Jesus’s body—a “place of reversal” where we discover we were wrong, rehearse the whole story of Jesus, and refuse to settle for anything less than recognizing full humanity in everyone

Timestamps:

01:00 Conspiracy Theory as Functional Reality

06:00 Why Evangelicals Are Susceptible to Conspiracy Thinking

12:00 The Theological Charge That Makes Conspiracies Plausible

18:00 Alternative Knowledge vs. Embodied Truth

24:00 Historical Anxieties Driving Conspiracy Theories

35:00 When Facts and Mockery Don’t Work

45:00 The Freedom to Be Wrong in Christian Community

54:00 Healthy Skepticism Without Conspiracy Thinking

1:03:00 The Church as Place of Transformation and Discovery

1:06:00 Finding Jared’s Work and Forthcoming Book

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd wraps up the year-and-a-half journey through 2 Samuel with returning guests Jenai Auman and Liz Daye, examining chapters 23-24—David’s self-congratulatory final words followed by a devastating census that reveals how little he’s actually learned.

This isn’t a triumphant ending to a great king’s reign—it’s a sobering reminder that David’s version of greatness cost 70,000 lives, and his idea of repentance always came after profound devastation that somehow never seemed to affect him personally. The contrast between how David sees himself and what the text actually shows us is the perfect capstone to understanding power’s corruption.

And a shoutout to Jon Pyle, Robert Callahan, and Amanda Waldron for being a part of the journey through books of Samuel!

Topics Covered

* How David’s “last words” in chapter 23 present his self-image as a just ruler bringing cloudless morning prosperity, immediately contrasted by the compilers listing “Uriah the Hittite” among his mighty men—a literary shade that reminds readers of David’s profound injustice

* Understanding why David’s census in chapter 24 was such a violation: it risked ritual impurity for the entire nation, mimicked divine power (only gods counted in ancient cultures), and served as the first step toward military conscription, slavery, and exploitation

* Why David’s choice of punishment—three days of plague affecting 70,000 people—reveals his continued pattern of self-protection, when he could have chosen three months of fleeing enemies with his “mighty men” that would’ve primarily affected him

* The devastating reality that David “makes things right with God” through sacrifice but never repairs things with the people harmed by his choices, mirroring modern patterns where abusive leaders go on apology tours without addressing the actual devastation they caused

* How the story ends not with David as hero but with God’s compassion for the land, contrasting David’s transactional understanding of hesed (loyalty) with God’s hesed (compassion)—showing what God actually values versus what David claimed to embody

* Why paying attention to prophets and moving toward justice and shalom matters more than celebrating leaders who buy their own hype, and how David delivering Israel into bondage (the census taking nine months—a gestation period) inverts God’s role as deliverer from oppression

Timestamps:

01:00 David’s Self-Hype Poem vs. “Uriah the Hittite”

07:00 The Mighty Men List as Twilight End Credits

14:00 Why the Census Was Such a Big Deal

21:00 David’s Cowardly Choice: 70,000 Deaths

30:00 Repentance Without Repair to the Harmed

38:00 Spiritual Bypassing and Weaponized Forgiveness

47:00 The Angel Who Wouldn’t Stop Judging

55:00 Measuring Success by Empire vs. Jesus

1:04:00 Final Takeaways from the David Journey

1:06:00 Finding the Hosts and What’s Next

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Dr. Beth Allison Barr, historian and author of The Making of Biblical Womanhood and Becoming the Pastor’s Wife, for a fascinating conversation about how the role of pastor’s wife has functioned to limit women’s leadership in the church.

This isn’t just about theological debates—it’s about recognizing how economic anxieties, racial prejudice, and fear of losing privilege have repeatedly driven backlash against women’s independence throughout history, and how biblical language gets weaponized to justify keeping women in subordinate, unpaid positions.

Topics Covered

* How 2025 marks the 25th anniversary of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message that encoded complementarian theology into Southern Baptist doctrine, and recognizing this as part of a historical pattern where women’s subordination rises during periods when women gain legal and economic independence

* Understanding backlash against women’s ordination as rooted in cultural anxieties—particularly white anxiety about demographic changes and fears about losing economic privilege—rather than purely theological concerns about biblical interpretation

* Why the pastor’s wife role has become “the primary ministry role model for women” in conservative churches, creating a safe space for women’s gifts while simultaneously keeping them under male authority and conditioning congregations to reject independent female leadership

* The economic reality that women’s ministry is almost always expected to be unpaid volunteer work while men’s ministry comes with salaries and benefits, revealing how “noble calling” language masks structural inequality and devalues women’s contributions

* How closely associating female leadership with marriage trains churches and broader culture to only accept women’s authority when it’s subordinate to men, contributing to resistance against women in business, politics, and other spheres beyond the church

* What the church has lost by silencing women’s theological voices, contrasting with historical examples like Catherine of Siena convincing the Pope to return to Rome because medieval Christianity respected that “God spoke through women to men”

Timestamps:

01:00 25 Years of Complementarian Theology’s Damage

05:00 Cultural Anxieties Driving the Backlash Against Women

10:00 How Economic Fears Shape Attitudes Toward Women’s Equality

14:00 The Pastor’s Wife Role as Gatekeeper to Female Leadership

19:00 Unspoken Expectations and Their Cost to Women

23:00 What the Church Loses Without Women’s Voices

28:00 Historical Hope: Women Who Never Stopped Speaking

32:00 Finding Beth’s Work and Resources

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd, Jenai Auman, and Liz Daye continue their exploration of 2 Samuel, examining chapters 21-22—a jarring collection of appendices that reveal David’s legacy through violence, political maneuvering, and self-congratulatory poetry.

This isn’t a triumphant conclusion to David’s reign—it’s a sobering look at how powerful people rewrite history to justify harm, and how the quiet faithfulness of marginalized women like Rizpah often goes unnoticed while loud, self-serving declarations get preserved as “worship.”

Topics Covered

* Understanding the structural shift in 2 Samuel 21-24 from linear narrative to a collection of “appendices” that are deliberately out of chronological order, giving different perspectives and even contradicting earlier accounts like the story of who actually killed Goliath

* How David responds to a three-year famine by asking the Gibeonites (not God) how to fix it, resulting in the execution of seven of Saul’s descendants—a solution that violates Torah patterns of repentance while serving David’s political interests by eliminating threats to his throne

* The prophetic witness of Rizpah, a concubine who holds vigil over her sons’ desecrated bodies for six months, whose quiet faithfulness actually lifts the famine when David finally gives the bodies proper burial—yet most major commentaries ignore her story entirely

* Why the famous contradiction about Goliath’s death (attributed to Elhanan here rather than David) reveals how stories were shaped to serve David’s propaganda, showing us that “history favors the victor” and inviting us to read with suspicion

* Examining David’s Psalm in chapter 22 as an unreliable narrator’s self-congratulatory rewriting of history, claiming blamelessness and righteousness while celebrating violence and conquest that directly contradicts Torah values and God’s vision for leadership

* How hyper-spiritualizing language gets weaponized to justify harm—from David’s beautiful words masking brutal actions to modern Christian nationalism using similar rhetoric to consolidate power while claiming God’s blessing on violence and oppression

Timestamps:

01:00 Chapter 21: Famine, Gibeonites, and Political Pragmatism

06:00 David’s Solution: Execution Instead of Repentance

12:00 Rizpah’s Vigil: Six Months of Prophetic Witness

18:00 Why Most Commentaries Erase Rizpah’s Story

24:00 The Goliath Contradiction and David Propaganda

33:00 Chapter 22: David’s Self-Congratulatory Psalm

42:00 Rewriting History: When Beautiful Words Mask Violence

52:00 Context Matters: Why We Can’t Proof-Text Our Way Through

59:00 Reading with Suspicion and Through the Lens of Torah

1:04:00 Loud Posturing vs. Quiet Faithfulness

1:10:00 Finding the Hosts Online

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Mandy Capehart, author of Restorative Grief, for an intimate conversation about how faith deconstruction is actually a complex grief process that affects every dimension of our lives.

This isn't just about changing your theology—it's about recognizing that when we deconstruct faith, we're grieving the loss of safety, belonging, community, identity, and even our relationship with our own bodies. Mandy offers a compassionate framework for understanding why this process is so difficult and how healing can happen holistically.

Mandy Capehart is a grief educator, somatic practitioner, and author of Restorative Grief. She hosts the Restorative Grief podcast and leads the Restorative Grief Project, a supportive online community. Her work focuses on helping people understand grief as a holistic experience that involves heart, mind, body, and spirit.

Topics Covered

* Understanding faith deconstruction as a layered grief process that involves losing "the systems and structures that have really shaped our sense of safety, belonging, and community," not just changing beliefs about theology or biblical interpretation

* How leaving faith communities mirrors other major life transitions like divorce or coming out, particularly when "we have disrupted our foundation" and can no longer rely on our faith as the solid rock during other difficulties

* The difference between fitting in and true belonging, and how many people discover they were conditionally accepted in their faith communities only when they could edit themselves to match expectations rather than bring their full selves

* Why intellectualizing deconstruction can become a protective strategy that creates "an illusion of control" while avoiding the necessary work of processing how these changes affect us emotionally and somatically in our bodies

* How faith communities often suppress connection to our physical selves, leading to embodied symptoms like "tightness in their throat, in their chest" and the inability to speak authentically when our voices have been deemed unsafe or invalid

* The transformative power of learning to "take up space" and speak with authenticity, even when it means risking correction or disagreement, and finding safety in being humbled while maintaining belonging

Timestamps:

01:00 What Are We Actually Grieving in Faith Deconstruction?

05:00 Beyond Theology: How Environment and Values Shape Us

11:00 Why Faith Deconstruction Looks Like Divorce

18:00 Grieving Community and the Loss of Belonging

23:00 Identity Grief: When Labels and Roles No Longer Fit

29:00 How Grief and Transition Show Up in Our Bodies

36:00 Learning to Take Up Space and Use Our Voices

40:00 Restorative Grief: Finding Safety in the Eye of the Storm

47:00 Finding Mandy's Work and Resources

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, we continue our deep dive into 2 Samuel with Kate Boyd, Jenai Auman, and Liz Daye — examining chapter 20 and its stark contrasts between violence and peacemaking, power and wisdom.

This isn't just ancient history—it's a cautionary tale about what happens when leaders prioritize power over God's vision of shalom, and how the pursuit of control creates systems that harm the most vulnerable while claiming to restore order.

Topics Covered

* How Sheba's rebellion represents a more serious threat to David's kingdom than Absalom's revolt, with "all the men of Israel" deserting David and foreshadowing the eventual split of the kingdom that echoes this same rallying cry

* Understanding Joab's brutal murder of Amasa as the physical embodiment of David's strategic manipulation—both men eliminate threats to maintain power, but Joab does openly what David orchestrates from behind the scenes

* Examining the treatment of David's ten concubines as property that gets "handled" rather than cared for, showing how David's view of women as disposable objects extends from Michal to these women who are condemned to live "as widows until the day of their death"

* The contrast between male violence and female wisdom through the unnamed "wise woman" who speaks in poetry to negotiate peace, representing the biblical pattern of women stepping up to end conflicts when men create chaos through their pursuit of power

* How the concept of shalom differs from simple peace or absence of conflict—it represents "the harmony between things and the right relatedness of things," a holistic vision of flourishing that stands in stark opposition to David's hierarchical kingdom

* Why the chapter's ending list of David's officials, including someone "over forced labor," reveals a kingdom that has abandoned God's Torah vision and adopted the oppressive practices of surrounding empires, directly contradicting Israel's identity as people freed from slavery

Timestamps:

01:00 Sheba's Rebellion: A More Serious Threat Than Absalom

03:00 Joab's Betrayal Kiss: Violence to Maintain Power

06:00 The Concubines: How David "Handles" Women as Property

10:00 The Wise Woman: Poetry, Peace, and Maternal Protection

16:00 Shalom vs. Power: Two Visions of Community

24:00 God's Absence and the Politics of David's Kingdom

28:00 David as the god of Christian Nationalism

33:00 Reading Narrative as Literature: Seeing the Bigger Picture

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Rohadi, author of When We Belong, for a provocative conversation about the difference between progressive Christianity and truly decolonized faith.

This isn't about finding a more liberal church or updating your theology—it's about fundamentally reimagining what liberative community looks like when we center marginalized voices and embody radical love ethics in our neighborhoods and daily lives.

Rohadi is an author, speaker, and community leader who focuses on decolonizing Christianity and embodied spiritual practices. He leads an online faith community called A Beautiful Table and hosts the podcast series "Farewell Evangelicalism." His upcoming book on embodied meditations will be released in 2026.

Topics Covered

* Why leaving white evangelicalism for progressive or liberal churches often replicates the same harmful patterns, as recent data shows most "liberal" denominations still vote majority Republican and maintain foundational issues with ableism and white supremacy

* Understanding how evangelical formation is designed to control bodies, particularly women and children, and why those who don't conform to white male, cisgender, able-bodied norms will "never belong fully" regardless of theological adjustments

* The crucial difference between knowledge and embodied wisdom—why reading books about justice isn't the same as participating in liberative community that seeks "right repair unto right relationship" with land, people, and resources

* How decolonizing faith requires listening to indigenous voices and resistance movements specific to the land where your feet touch, rather than seeking universal solutions or centering white voices in leadership

* Exploring embodied spiritual practices like body scans and breath work that help reclaim the body after evangelical teachings that promote distrust and disconnection from physical experiences and emotions

* Why truly liberative communities are found "on the margins"—in recovery churches, queer churches, and racialized communities—and how white people can join existing movements without needing to lead or start their own organizations

Timestamps:

01:00 Beyond Evangelicalism: Progressive vs. Decolonized Faith

04:00 How Evangelical Formation Controls Bodies and Margins

09:00 The Lifelong Process of Unlearning White Supremacist Patterns

14:00 Moving Slow: Relationships, Grief, and Embodied Wisdom

21:00 Living in Tension: Safety, Community, and Vulnerability

26:00 Whose Traditions? Questioning Christian Orthodoxy and Authority

33:00 Embodying Radical Love Ethics in Local Context

f37:00 Finding Rohadi's Work and Resources

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Lisa Colon DeLay, author of The Way of the Desert Elders, for an illuminating conversation about ancient Christian wisdom that speaks directly to modern faith struggles.

This isn't just church history—it's a roadmap for Christians navigating the tension between empire and authentic discipleship, offering embodied practices for healing religious trauma and rebuilding faith after deconstruction.

Lisa Colon DeLay is a pastor, author, and host of the Spark My Muse podcast. Her work focuses on spiritual formation and connecting modern Christians with ancient wisdom traditions. She's also the author of The Wild Land Within and offers resources for spiritual practices rooted in early Christian traditions.

Topics Covered

* How the Desert Fathers and Mothers (300-600 AD) responded when Christianity became corrupted by political power and empire, creating communities that prioritized devotion over career advancement and cultural status

* Understanding the nine "afflicting thoughts" (later developed into the seven deadly sins) as a holistic framework addressing body, mind, and spirit—not moral failings but predictable challenges that arise when pursuing spiritual growth

* Why healing from religious trauma requires embodied practices, not just cognitive processing, and how ancient spiritual disciplines can help integrate the physical, emotional, and spiritual dimensions of faith

* The essential role of spiritual mentorship in faith reconstruction, contrasting the Desert tradition of pairing every seeker with a spiritual mother or father against modern evangelicalism's individualistic approach to spiritual growth

* Exploring the practice of "vigil"—waiting expectantly on God as an active spiritual discipline that reorients us from productivity-based faith to relationship-based presence with the divine

* How ancient wisdom addresses modern challenges like spiritual overwhelm, digital distraction, and the temptation of "acedia" (spiritual boredom), offering practices for slowing down and creating space for intimacy with God

Timestamps:

00:52 Who Were the Desert Fathers and Mothers?

02:00 Empire and Faith: When Church Meets Political Power

05:00 Embodied Spirituality vs. Head-Centered Faith

09:00 Rebuilding Faith Through Ancient Community Models

13:00 The Nine Afflicting Thoughts: Body, Mind, Spirit 1

8:00 What Would Concern and Encourage the Desert Elders Today?

21:00 Productivity vs. Faithfulness: Redefining Spiritual Success

26:00 The Practice of Vigil: Active Waiting on God

30:00 Finding Lisa's Work and Resources

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In 2 Samuel 19, we witness David's complicated return to power after Absalom's death—a chapter that reveals the messy intersection of grief, politics, and justice.

Through three pivotal encounters on his journey back to Jerusalem, we see how David's approach to leadership prioritizes political expediency over genuine justice, particularly in his heartbreaking dismissal of Mephibosheth's legitimate grievances.

This chapter serves as a sobering preview of the kingdom's coming division, showing us the cost of leadership that values loyalty over righteousness and efficiency over authentic relationship.

Topics We Cover

* How David's public mourning for Absalom gets shut down by Joab, leading to immediate political maneuvering that reveals the performative nature of his subsequent "mercy"

* Examining David's encounters with Shimei (performative forgiveness), Mephibosheth (dismissive injustice), and Barzillai (transactional loyalty) as a study in how power corrupts discernment

* Why David's unjust ruling that divides Saul's land represents both a violation of Torah justice and literary foreshadowing of the kingdom's eventual split

* How David's calculated mercy exposes a broader cultural pattern of transactional relationships that prioritizes political gain over authentic love and loyalty

* Exploring how David's "move fast and break things" approach to leadership reflects systems that value efficiency over people, ultimately fracturing both family and kingdom

Timestamps:

01:42 David's Return to Jerusalem

05:13 David's Grief and Political Maneuvering

10:05 Joab's Role and David's Struggles

13:33 Generational Trauma and Loyalty

19:51 David's Strategic Forgiveness

25:20 Chronological and Literary Analysis

27:02 The Impact of David's Actions on Mephibosheth

30:11 David's Strategic Kindness and Manipulation

33:58 The Exhaustion of Maneuvering in a Toxic System

38:39 Foreshadowing the Split of the Kingdom

44:43 Takeaways

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe