Untidy Faith

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Liz Daye, author of Interwoven Discipleship, for a conversation about what happens when the Trinity gets flattened into a chain of command—and why the doctrine seminaries treat as a footnote might be the one that keeps churches from harming people.

Topics Covered

* Why perichoresis usually shows up as the last unit of a Trinitarian theology class, and what the church loses by treating it as an add-on

* How the hierarchy we imagine inside God ends up justifying who submits to whom in the pews, and who gets covered for when abuse surfaces

* The youth group challenge Liz’s abusive youth pastor invented, and what a wall full of daily notes did to a teenager’s sense of enough

* What chaplaincy taught her that seminary didn’t: why the A+ answer centers you and not the person in front of you

* Why spiritual gift assessments never had “chaplain” on the list, and what that reveals about discipleship paths built for efficiency

Timestamps:02:00 Hierarchy That Harms and the Doctrines Underneath It05:00 Perichoresis: The Trinity as Verb, Not Triangle09:00 Following Jesus Isn’t a Stopping Point12:00 Eternity: The One Year Challenge15:00 Welcoming Human Limits Instead of Filling Holes19:00 Felt-Need Questions and Why Good Answers Don’t Help25:00 What Discipleship Looks Like at a Bedside27:00 Spiritual Formation That Isn’t One Size Fits Most30:00 When Discipleship Paths Become Assembly Lines35:00 For Those Who Doubt There’s Anything Underneath37:00 Finding the Book and Liz’s Work

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with KJ Ramsey, trauma therapist and author of The Place Between Our Pains, for a conversation about what happens when the faith language you’ve published books about stops working—and why joy might still be available in the middle of a medical crisis that isn’t resolving.

Topics Covered

* What happens to us spiritually when every complaint has to come with a caveat, and why that splits us in two

* Why being a trauma therapist didn’t spare KJ from trauma, and why she thinks that’s actually good news for the rest of us

* How to be in your body when your body is the site of the pain, starting with how you’d talk to a five-year-old who skinned her knee

* Why she stopped judging her own silence when she lost the ability to pray or describe God at all

* A definition of joy that doesn’t require your life to get better, offered from a seat where things are actively not better

Timestamps:01:00 When Hope Functions as a Gag Order04:00 Why It’s Still Hard to Let People See You10:00 Having the Language and Still Being Battered by It15:00 Embodiment When Your Body Doesn’t Feel Safe17:00 Your Body Is a Person, Not a Problem to Fix24:00 When the Words for God Stop Working28:00 Forsaken as Loosened for the Sake of Expansion33:00 Joy as the Presence of Love37:00 For Anyone in Something They Never Would Have Chosen40:00 Finding the Book and KJ’s Work

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Kat Armas for a conversation about what “empire” actually means once you strip away the buzzword—and why decolonizing your bookshelf and diversifying it are not the same project.

Topics Covered

* How empire shifted from a ruler over his own people to an ambition that metastasized, and why the US is an imperial state even without an emperor

* Why the Bible’s language is so imperial, including Heaven itself, and what that tells us about the people writing it

* Who gets to decide what counts as wisdom, and what changes when you notice wisdom in Scripture is a woman shouting in the street

* Why empire has no imagination (it’s been running the same tired playbook since Rome) but we do

* The Quechua hummingbird story that reframes what meaningful resistance actually looks like

Timestamps:01:00 Why “Empire” and “Decolonize” Became Buzzwords04:00 A Working Definition of Empire07:00 How Imperial Ideology Gets Woven Into Faith13:00 The Bible Isn’t an Anti-Imperial Manifesto16:00 What Cuban American Formation Reveals That Western Readings Miss21:00 Empire Begins as Story, Then Calcifies Into Systems26:00 Imagine Smaller: The Hummingbird Drop31:00 Empire Doesn’t Just Live Out There, It Lives In Us37:00 Why Liturgy Is Subversive42:00 Finding Kat’s Work

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Anna Rollins, author of Famished: On Food, Sex, and Growing Up as a “Good Girl,” for a conversation about the shared script underneath purity culture and diet culture—and why knowing the promise is false doesn’t make it stop working on us.

Topics Covered

* The pattern Anna kept finding in her own private writing before she had a name for it, and what scarcity, smallness, and shrinking appetite had to do with each other

* Why “control your appetite and you’ll be safe” persists even for women who see through it, and the very real thing it’s rooted in

* What internalized fundamentalism looks like once the original system is gone, including inside body positivity

* How to tell rigidity from conviction, and where each one shows up in the body

* What “reclaiming appetite” actually looks like on a normal Tuesday, and why it’s rarely about food

Timestamps:01:00 Noticing the Pattern in Her Own Writing03:00 Why the Promise Is Durable Even When You Know Better06:00 Fundamentalism That Follows You Into New Systems11:00 Wellness Language as Code and the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders13:00 Telling Rigidity from Conviction18:00 Shame, Guilt, and Where the Hope Lives20:00 Why Healing Body Shame Shifts Your Relationship With God24:00 Reclaiming Appetite on a Normal Tuesday31:00 For Anyone Still in the Middle of It35:00 Finding the Book and Anna’s Work

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Kristin Mockler Young, author of The Other Side of Certainty, for a conversation about what certainty is actually doing for us—and why the thing we were handed as faith might have been a tool for detachment all along.

Topics Covered

* The cynical-but-true reason certainty appeals to people who don’t know what to do with hard emotions or injustice

* Why a faith that shatters and a faith that holds questions often come down to how the hard thing arrived

* What people gain when they trade black-and-white belief for something roomier, and the loss almost nobody escapes

* How certainty gets tangled up with identity and belonging, and why your people find it easier to let you go than face their own dissonance

* The question Kristin is still sitting in, and why she’s not rushing to resolve it

Timestamps:01:00 What Certainty Is Actually Doing for People04:00 The Difference Between Rooting Yourself in God and in What You Know About God09:00 What You Gain and What You Lose14:00 The Disorienting Moment You Notice the Cracks16:00 Authority vs. Power and How We Got Out of Balance17:00 How to Practice Curiosity When You Weren’t Trained For It20:00 Sitting in Not-Knowing Without Rushing23:00 The Question Kristin Hasn’t Resolved25:00 Finding the Book and Kristin’s Work

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Tyler Hill for a conversation about what changes when you start your story with belovedness instead of brokenness—and why the exhaustion so many of us carry comes from chasing something we’ve had in our pocket the whole time.

Topics Covered

* The breathwork session that gave Tyler a visceral image of the womb, and what it revealed about his very first knowing

* Henri Nouwen’s three biggest lies (I am what I have, what I do, what others say) and how they become the raw material for a false self

* Why belovedness isn’t spiritual bypassing, and what Tyler learned about it from people in prison who can’t hang their hat on their morality

* The unexpected first spiritual practice Tyler prescribes, and why it involves $100 and an outfit you actually love

* What’s hardest to let go of when you awaken to your true self, and it isn’t the theology

Timestamps:03:00 The Six Months When Everything Fell Apart05:00 “Nothing to Prove, Nothing to Lose” and Why It Felt Like a Lie11:00 Baseball Tyler and the Making of a False Self18:00 The Practical Cost of Living from the False Self22:00 Belovedness That Isn’t Cheap Grace or Positive Thinking26:00 On-Ramps That Don’t Feel Like Obligation30:00 The Burning Bush and the Practice of Curiosity38:00 What You Have to Let Go Of46:00 Why Belovedness Requires a Feminine God47:00 How to Know You’re Living It, Not Just Believing It53:00 Finding Tyler’s Work and Monday Morning Blessings

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Kristel Acevedo, author of Liberated at the Cross, for a conversation about what we lose when the cross gets flattened into a single transaction—and why a theology that has been used to justify suffering, silence, and submission might actually be the one that sets us free.

Topics Covered

* Why picking one atonement theory and calling the rest trash doesn’t square with a God who pursues relationship over and over

* What it means that Jesus wasn’t a victim of the cross, and how that reframes the whole event for people who’ve been handed it as guilt

* How liberation theology’s systemic lens challenges the individualism of Western evangelicalism without abandoning personal faith

* Why Kristel spent years downplaying her Latinidad in white-majority spaces, and what changed when someone asked her to write from her culture

* The one thing the church would stop doing if it took liberation at the cross seriously (hint: it involves looking away)

Timestamps:02:00 Beyond Transaction: Meaning and Method at the Cross05:00 When the Cross Has Been Used Against You10:00 Catholic Guilt and the Crucifix That Said “You Did This”13:00 Why “Liberated” and Not Some Other Word18:00 What a Latina Perspective Reveals About the Cross22:00 What the Church Would Stop Doing23:00 What a Cross-Shaped Life Actually Looks Like24:00 Finding the Study and Kristel’s Work

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Elizabeth Berget, author of Love Like a Mother, for a conversation about what happens when we take maternal metaphors for God as seriously as paternal ones—and why the church’s exclusion of feminine language for God isn’t just theologically incomplete but leaves women spiritually homeless in motherhood.

Topics Covered

* What gets quietly excluded when “God the Father” is our only or primary image

* How the Hebrew word for God’s compassion (rachum) in Exodus 34:6—God’s first self-description—is tied to the word for womb (rechem)

* How motherhood becomes a spiritual desert when your brain changes more than any other point in life (including puberty) but nobody tells you to expect your faith to change, and churches assume laziness instead of recognizing you’re doing a lot

* The disconnect between how motherhood is emphasized in church circles but under-resourced spiritually

* What’s at stake if we keep handing people a God who can only be described in paternal terms

Timestamps:

01:00 What We Describe and Exclude with “God the Father”

06:00 All God Language Is Metaphor (We Forgot That)

10:00 Why Motherhood Feels Like a Spiritual Desert

16:00 Rachum: God’s Maternal Compassion Lost in Translation

23:00 Embodied Verbs and the Incarnational God

29:00 What Spiritual Formation Actually Looks Like for Mothers

35:00 What’s at Stake When We Exclude Feminine Language

37:00 Finding the Book and Elizabeth’s Work

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, I sit down with Celeste Irwin for an honest conversation about what it’s like to be trans in Christian spaces—from childhood shame over “transy thoughts” with no language for them, to losing every friend when coming out, to discovering that transition feels like being literally raised to life.

Celeste Irwin is a transgender, lesbian woman and a survivor of a spiritually abusive evangelical church network. She’s written in-depth about her experiences in that network, and she now writes and speaks about issues affecting transgender people, including queer inclusion in Christian spaces.

Topics Covered

* Why even as a child Celeste knew “this is the thing I can’t confess”—different from sins you talk about in small group, this was something that would “really mess stuff up” if she stared at it too long

* The cost of exile like losing most friends when leaving evangelicalism, then losing the rest when coming out as trans

* What churches miss without trans people:

* Why queer exclusion is spiritual abuse

* The three things Celeste is tired of saying but will say for us anyway:

* How the movie Moana captures trans joy best

Timestamps:

02:00 Primary School “Transy Thoughts” and Unconfessable Shame

10:00 The Cost of Exile: Losing 20-Year Friendships

14:00 What the Church Loses Without the Trans Limb

22:00 Names, Identity, and “Your Identity Should Be in Christ”

28:00 Three Things Celeste Is Tired of Saying (But Will Say Again)

36:00 Why Becoming Affirming Requires Actual Repentance

40:00 What Intellectual Arguments Miss: The People

46:00 Trans Joy: Skirt Go Spinny and Te Fiti’s Heart Restored

54:00 What a Church That Genuinely Welcomes Trans People Looks Like

58:00 The Pride Month Challenge: Education Work Required

Links

https://www.celestefinally.com

https://www.youtube.com/@Celestial-Navigation

https://www.notovercome.org

Join me and Alisha Roth for a honest conversation about what it takes to leave a marriage when you’ve done everything “right”—the Christian college, the missionary training, the four daughters—and why the church’s fear and control around divorce leaves women trapped in unsafe situations.

Topics Covered

* The question that changed everything and why the answer unlocked self-love Alisha couldn’t access when it was just about her own safety

* Why “your husband has a right to your body” made it impossible to trust what her body already knew, and how one therapist naming abuse as abuse cracked open the church bubble keeping her trapped

* The stat the church doesn’t want you to know

* Why women who choose to leave face different judgment than women who get left

* What happened when Alisha’s therapist refused to tell her whether to get divorced—and why learning that taking ownership of your own life (instead of keeping everyone else happy) is the holy work

Timestamps:

01:00 When Everything Looks Right But Something’s Wrong

05:00 Having Someone Name the Abuse Changes Everything

10:00 Why the Church Blames Women Who Leave

15:00 Fear, Control, and Managing God’s Image

20:00 Finding Hope and Community After Loss

24:00 Why It Matters to Talk About Choosing to Leave

29:00 Taking Ownership: “I Have to Make This Decision”

32:00 Rebuilding Faith: Love Over Rules

35:00 Finding the Book and Alisha’s Work