Contradiction is one of the most important concepts in Marxist philosophy. When we think about Marxism, we typically think about the contributions that Marx, Engels, Lenin (and many others since) have made specifically to the study of political economy—but there are also deep philosophical underpinnings that form the foundation of Marxist political economy, and one of these foundational philosophies is dialectical materialism.

Dialectical materialism brings together two important components of Marxist thought: dialectics and materialism. Broadly speaking, dialectics is grounded in the idea that in order to understand the world, we must look at things in relation to one another and not as isolated and separate phenomena. And we must also understand that those relations include opposing forces that act in contradiction to one another. For example, the two opposing forces at play in capitalism are the bourgeoisie and the proletariat—or capitalists and workers.

The other part of dialectical materialism, the materialism part, is grounded in the idea that in order to understand the world, we must start by understanding our material reality, and that material conditions are primary over ideas. It's not the ideas of great men that drive society forward, but the material conditions that give rise to those ideas in the first place. We'll walk you through all of this in much more detail throughout this episode.

Theory is an essential element of the revolutionary work that we do, and it's crucial that we familiarize ourselves with Marxist theory to help inform and guide our revolutionary practice. As Lenin said, "Without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement." Understanding the foundational theories and philosophies that underlie the work that we do helps take our work to the next level. Familiarizing ourselves with theory and grounding our practice in it elevates our work and gives us unique tools and specialized knowledge that helps us sharpen the tools in our revolutionary toolbox and understand the world around us with more clarity and focus.

This is why we're going to be sharing a few episodes over the coming months to explore Marxist theory in depth. And in this episode, we're taking a deep dive into dialectical materialism. And we've brought on the perfect guest to help us through this.

Josh Sykes is a writer and an activist organizing with Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO). He's the author of the book The Revolutionary Science of Marxism-Leninism published last year by Freedom Road. Josh's book is an introduction to Marxism-Leninism split up into seven sections, and in this episode, we'll be taking a deep dive into the second section of the book which explores the philosophy underpinning Marxism-Leninism: dialectical materialism.

Further resources:

• Freedom Road Socialist Organization
• The Revolutionary Science of Marxism-Leninism, by J. Sykes

Related episodes:

• Upstream: Revolutionary Leftism with Breht O'Shea
• Upstream: What is to be Done? With Breht O'Shea and Alyson Escalante
• Upstream: Climate Leninism w/ Jodi Dean and Kai Heron

Intermission music by Fugazi.

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Ever wonder why it feels like almost every single tech product you use is actively trying to screw you? Why it is that your printer requires you to subscribe to ink cartridges that, ounce for ounce, cost more than gold? Why you can't read websites anymore because of all the moving, deceptive advertisements clogging up the screen? Why you're paying substantially more for an entire suite of buggy streaming services than your parents ever were for cable TV? Why your BlueTooth enabled electric toothbrush keeps breaking? Why airplanes are falling apart mid-flight?

Well, it might not seem like it at first glance, but all of these phenomena are related. They have a single cause: deregulation. Specifically, deregulation driven by big tech monopolies that have found all sorts of creative and coercive ways to use the legal system to screw over not just their customers, but increasingly their employees, clients, vendors, advertisers—basically everybody but a handful of shareholders and C-suite decision-makers who are growing filthy rich off of our impoverishment and immiseration.

In this conversation, we're talking big tech—how we got where we are and how we can fix things—with Cory Doctorow. Cory is an activist, journalist, and author. His two latest books are the science fiction novel The Bezzle and the nonfiction book, which we'ill be talking about today, The Internet Con: How to Seize the Means of Computation, published by Verso.

In this conversation we explore the history of trusts and anti-trust laws originating in the late 1800s, and we discuss how deregulation, copyright, digital locks, IP law, and monopoly-friendly legislation have all led to a process of enclosure in multiple tech industries—from the internet to airplanes—resulting in a landscape fully devoid of anything resembling the promise of technology that has been whispered into ours ears since the dawn of the digital age.

Further resources:

• Cory Doctorow
• The Internet Con:How to Seize the Means of Computation, by Cory Doctorow
• The Bezzle, by Cory Doctorow

Related episodes:

• Upstream: NFTs with Nathan Schneider and Cory Doctorow

Intermission music by Embrace. Episode artwork by Berwyn Mure.

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

You can listen to the full episode "How the North Plunders the South" by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber you will get access to at least one bonus episode a month (usually two or three), our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, early access to certain episodes, and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers—depending on which tier you subscribe to. You'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going. Find out more at Patreon.com/upstreampodcast or at upstreampodcast.org/support. Thank you.

The imperial core—which is comprised of settler-colonial states like those in Western Europe, as well as states like the United States, Canada and Australia—have been stealing the resources and labor of the Global South—or the periphery—for centuries. It started with the direct colonial violence and resource exploitation that marked much of the last few centuries, but it didn't end there.

Neo-colonialism—a term that you're probably familiar with—is broadly defined as the use of economic, political, cultural, or other pressures to control or influence other countries, especially former colonies. But what does it actually look like in practice? How is the imperial core still plundering and pillaging the periphery? The practice of widespread crude, cruel, brute force that marked direct colonialism may not exist in the same exact form as it once did—but the outcome is still the same: mass extraction and exploitation from the Global South which has resulted in a staggering net transfer of resources, wealth, and labor to the Global North.

In this episode, we're going to discuss the mechanisms and extent of neocolonial extraction and exploitation as they manifest today, and we've brought on the perfect guest to walk us through it.

Jason Hickel is a professor at the The Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, the author of the books The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions and Less is More: How Degrowth will Save the World, and the the lead author of two papers that we'll be focusing on today: "Imperialist appropriation in the world economy: Drain from the global South through unequal exchange, 1990–2015" published in journal Global Environmental Change, and "Unequal exchange of labour in the world economy" forthcoming in the journal Nature Communications.

In this conversion we explore the theory of uneven exchange and how it sheds light on neocolonialism in practice, we discuss some of the key findings from Jason's research on imperialist appropriation in the world economy, we dispel some of the myths perpetuated by those claiming that capitalism has lifted "millions out of poverty," we talk about what a just degrowth transition of the global economy would look like and, crucially, how we might achieve it.

Further resources:

• Jason Hickel
• "Imperialist appropriation in the world economy: Drain from the global South through unequal exchange, 1990–2015" published in journal Global Environmental Change

Related Episodes:

• Upstream: The Divide – Global Inequality from Conquest to Free Markets with Jason Hickel
• Upstream: International Development and Post-capitalism with Jason Hickel
• Upstream: How Degrowth Will Save the World with Jason Hickel
• Upstream: The Green Transition Pt.1 – The Problem with Green Capitalism

Thank you to Berwyn Mure for the covert art.

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

There's no question that the crisis of capitalism and imperialism have reached a breaking point—it's clearly visible not only in opinion polls but also just simply through our lived experiences. The system, and those who run it, have clearly abandoned any sense of popular wellbeing or even basic accommodations for a vast segment of the population. The system is running on fumes, the engines are sputtering out, and it's only a matter of time before the decline turns into a freefall.

Although the electoral process here in the United States is just one part of the puzzle—it's an important one. Especially during a presidential election year, where more people than ever are paying attention to politics in a way that they normally don't. This attention can be an opportunity to organize and mobilize people in a way that brings them into a kind of active political consciousness that can lead to many fruitful outcomes. This is why we're continuing our exploration of electoral politics and presidential candidates in this episode.

Dr. Jill Stein is a medical doctor, environmental activist, and the 2024 Green Party presidential candidate.

In this conversation, we explore the conditions that have led to the many crises we're currently facing, the failure of either of the corporate parties to address any of them, the many intentional barriers to third-party candidates running for office in the United States, and the importance of organizing and not losing hope.

Further resources:

• Jill Stein 2024

Related episodes

• Upstream: A Marxist Perspective on Elections with August Nimtz
• Upstream: [UNLOCKED] Voting for Socialism w/ Claudia De La Cruz & Karina Garcia

Intermission music by Minutemen. Episode artwork by Berwyn Mure.

This episode of Upstream is brought to you in part by the Alliance For Just Money. Help!! Mayday!! May 18th is the 110th anniversary of Congress ceding its power to create money to commercial banks nationwide. Alliance For Just Money allies are working to change our money system to focus on people and planetary and societal needs. Join the Alliance May 18th for a march and rally in downtown Chicago, and for teach-ins that weekend. Go to monetaryalliance.org/mayday to learn more.

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

You can listen to the full episode "International Workers' Day" by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber you will get access to at least one bonus episode a month (usually two or three), our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, early access to certain episodes, and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers—depending on which tier you subscribe to. You'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going. Find out more at Patreon.com/upstreampodcast or at upstreampodcast.org/support. Thank you.

Militant workers, strikes, murder, dynamite, massacres—working class history is stained with the blood of martyrs and the atrocities of the ruling classes—a centuries-long struggle of class war that began at the dawn of capitalism itself.

On today's episode we're recognizing and celebrating International Workers' Day, held every year on this day—May 1st. The history of this day goes all the way back to the late 1800s, and yes, it includes massacres and strikes and dynamite. It's a story about class war—quite literally. And we've brought on the perfect guest to tell us about it.

John is a researcher at Working Class History—an online people's history project that includes a daily calendar of working class historical events, a longform and a daily podcast, a stories app, a map app, and much more.

In this episode John recounts the harrowing, violent, and sometimes humorous stories of how International Workers' Day came to be what it is today. We explore this day's legacy from the 1880s to the present, what working conditions were like in the late 19th century and how they resemble our current conditions, and why it's important to keep the legacy and lessons from this important day in our hearts, minds—and in our actions.

Further resources:

• Working Class History
• Working Class History podcasts
• The Incomplete, True, Authentic, and Wonderful History of May Day, by Peter Linebaugh
• Labor Day is May 1, by Jonah Walters

Related Episodes:

• Upstream: Abolish the Police

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

You can listen to the full episode "Against Condemning Hamas" by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber, not only will you get access to at least one bonus episode a month, usually two or three, as well as early access to certain episodes and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers, depending on which tier you subscribe to, but you'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going. Find out more at Patreon.com/upstreampodcast or at upstreampodcast.org/support. Thank you.

"The struggle for Palestinian liberation today is led by the Islamic Resistance Movement — Hamas. Hamas is supported by the entirety of the organized Palestinian left. One might have expected that the left in the imperial core would follow the leadership of the Palestinian left in supporting Hamas. More often than not, though, left intellectuals echo the condemnations that imperialist states make the condition for speaking about Palestine. In so doing, they take a side against the Palestinian revolution, giving a progressive face to the repression of the Palestinian political project, and betraying the anti-imperialist aspirations of a previous generation."

These are words written by Jodi Dean, a past guest on the show and a longtime activist, organizer, professor, and writer. In this Patreon episode, Robert reads an incredibly important piece written by Jodi about the Palestinian resistance movement which, after its publication, actually resulted in Jodi being punished by her university and relieved of teaching responsibilities.

In light of the growing attacks on academic freedom, as well as the literal attacks being waged by militarized police forces against professors and students demonstrating on campuses across the country, we thought this was a crucial time to uplift Jodi's words and share this important piece. As we did last time, Robert will come in from time to time to share his own analyses and reflections throughout the reading.

Further resources:

• Palestine speaks for everyone
• Petition: Revoke Professor Jodi Dean's suspension from teaching at Hobart and William Smith Colleges
• Upstream: Climate Leninism w/ Jodi Dean and Kai Heron

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

"The illegality of cannabis is outrageous, an impediment to full utilization of a drug which helps produce the serenity and insight, sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world." This is a quote attributed to the late astronomer, planetary scientist, and cannabis enthusiast, Carl Sagan. And if you've ever watched the original Cosmos series which he created and hosted, you won't be surprised that he appreciated pot. His decades-old insights and wisdom about marijuana and its individual and societal benefits carry forth the energy that we're bringing to this special 4/20 episode of Upstream which is a celebration of this incredible plant—its history, its myths, legends, culture, and much more. And we've brought on the perfect guest to discuss this with us.

David Bienenstock is the author of the book How to Smoke Pot (Properly): A Highbrow Guide to Getting High, and host of the podcast Great Moments in Weed History. In this episode we explore the history and culture of cannabis from prehistoric times, through to the ancient biblical times of Jesus, and up to the present. We recount the real story of how 4/20 became a celebrated holiday, we hear some of David's favorite weed stories, and get serious too as we discuss the impacts of criminalization, the commodification of cannabis in the legalization process, the need for racial justice to repair communities of color disproportionately impacted by the war on drugs, and the possibility of a general strike on 4/20.

So lean back, grab your joint or your pipe or your bong or your vape or if you don't partake, just imagine you're in the remote blunt rotation and you're skipping your puff and politely passing the joint—and this is important—to the left-hand side, as you join Robert and David in conversation about all things cannabis.

Further resources:

• How to Smoke Pot (Properly): A Highbrow Guide to Getting High
• Freedom Grow
• Here's The Real Story Of Why We Celebrate 4/20, by Ryan Grim

Intermission music by The Olivia Tremor Control. Episode artwork by Berwyn Mure.

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

You can listen to the full episode "Degrowth vs Eco-Modernism" by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber, not only will you get access to at least one bonus episode a month, usually two or three, as well as early access to certain episodes and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers, depending on which tier you subscribe to, but you'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going. Find out more at Patreon.com/upstreampodcast or at upstreampodcast.org/support. Thank you.

Debates on the left can often seem overly dramatized or indulgent—the result of too much time spent in online rabbit holes or needlessly arguing over manufactured controversies. But this is not always the case. There are many important debates among the left and many internal contradictions which are not compatible—what dialectical materialists would refer to as antagonistic contradictions. In this episode, we're going to explore one of these seemingly irreconcilable differences.

Degrowth is an umbrella term used to describe a wide variety of tendencies on the left which broadly proclaim the need to end or at least curtail economic growth. Degrowth thinkers include past guests like Max Ajl, Kai Heron, and Jason Hickel. Alternatively, left eco-modernism is a tendency on the left that argues the opposite: growth is not only necessary, but the assertion that we must end or curtail growth actually presents a barrier to our liberation. Left eco-modernists include past guests like Matt Huber.

In this episode, we're doing something a bit different. We're going to explore the antagonism between these two broad tendencies by reading an article and interspersing it with our own real-time analysis. The article is a piece by Kai Heron published by Verso titled "Forget Eco-Modernism: Recent years have seen renewed debate on climate strategy on the left. Here, Kai Heron responds to the arguments of the proponents of a left ecomodernism, and argues that it risks reactionary political consequences."

Join Robert as he presents the text, unpacks its arguments and analyzes them in real time, and brings in commentary and thoughts on a wide variety of topics related to degrowth, climate change, Marxism, and much more.

Further resources:

• Forget Eco-Modernism by Kai Heron
• Upstream: The Green Transition Pt. 1: The Problem with Green Capitalsim
• Upstream: The Green Transition Pt. 2: A Green Deal for the People
• Upstream: Climate Leninism w/ Jodi Dean and Kai Heron
• Upstream: How Degrowth Will Save the World with Jason Hickel
• Upstream: A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things with Raj Patel and Jason W. Moore
• Upstream: What Is To Be Done? with Breht O'Shea and Alyson Escalante
• If Books Could Kill: The Population Bomb

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

"Post capitalism is not simply another 'ism' to replace previous ideologies. It's not a euphemism for socialism or anarchism or Nordic capitalism—although it may contain some elements of each. Post capitalism is a conceptual container for social pluralities based on shared values that stem from an experience of the shortcomings of the existing system and the lived experience of life-centric alternatives."

These are words written by today's guest, Alnoor Ladha, along with his co-author Lynn Murphy from their book Post Capitalist Philanthropy: Healing Wealth in the Time of Collapse. We've brought on Alnoor to share more about what post capitalism is and how we can embody it and encourage it in our lives and activism.

Alnoor is an activist, journalist, political strategist and community organizer. He was the co-founder and executive director of The Rules and he is currently the council chair for Culture Hack Labs and co-director of the Transition Resource Circle.

In this conversation Alnoor takes us upstream to the ontological root causes of colonialism and capitalism, he describes the importance of cultivating what he calls spiritual-cultural praxis, he cautions against the commodification and exploitation of plant medicines, and invites us to study culture, become conscientious objectors of capitalism, and contribute to the collective prayer and movement for co-liberation of all beings.

Further resources and related episodes:

• Post Capitalist Philanthropy: Healing Wealth in the Time of Collapse
• Upstream: Buddhism and Marxism with Breht O'Shea
• Cooperative and Regenerative Economic Design course w/ discount

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

You can listen to the full episode with Nadia Zanghari by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

The revolutionary practice of dreaming, imagining, or simply hoping for a better world is an exercise whose importance is often overlooked. Not only are these practices crucial to keeping the embers warm in an increasingly dark age of capitalism and imperialism, but they can often serve as an instruction manual or roadmap leading to the world that we want to see. A kind of thru-topian exercise of envisioning.

Living solely in the realm of utopian imagination can certainly devolved into a form of navel gazing which can potentially untether one from the realities of day-to-day living, but also, to quote Oscar Wilde, "A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth even glancing at…" And one of the most rich and potent spaces for this kind of imagination is in the world of artistic creation—particularly fiction writing.

In this very special and unique Patreon episode, we're going to share a beautiful piece of fiction that invites us to imagine and dream—and also learn.

Nadia Zangari is a diaspora Palestinian whose grandparents were survivors of the Nakba. She recently wrote a piece titled "Palestine 2031" in which she tells a fictionalized account of traveling to what has become a free Palestine seven years from now.

Interspersed between inspirational vignettes and powerful prose, Nadia tackles some very interesting and open questions about what a free Palestine could look like and how we might get there. From cross-country hitchhiking adventures to volunteer-led reconstruction efforts, to the question of reparations, Nadia's piece, which she will be reading for us today, is a masterful exercise of astute imagination.

So we invite you to settle in, feel your feet on the ground or the wind in your hair or your hands on the steering wheel if you're driving—or however you're listening to this, we invite you to slow down and feel your breath as Robert introduces Nadia and as she reads "Palestine 2031".

Further resources:

• Palestine 2031, by Nadia Zanghari
• Nadia's friend's family's fundraiser: Help us escape the genocide in Gaza
• Upstream: How We Show Up w/ Mia Birdsong

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.