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In this episode, Timothée Parrique joins us for a discussion on degrowth. We begin the conversation with explaining the concept of degrowth, looking at its history, and really unpacking what it is and what it isn't. We talk about degrowth's two-fold agenda to both downscale production and consumption for environmental reasons, as well as its potential for removing the profit-motive as a central concern in how we organize society. We outline the differences between degrowth and recessions, the problem with GDP as a measurement tool for success, how degrowth can help to reduce poverty in certain contexts, the benefits of a dynamic steady state economy, where the degrowth movement is today, and much more.

Timothée Parrique is an economist originally from Versailles, France. He is currently a researcher at HEC Lausanne – The Faculty of Business and Economics of the University of Lausanne in Switzerland. He works on macro-ecological planning in Switzerland as part of the STRIVE research project. He's also the author of Slow Down or Die: The Economics of Degrowth.

Further resources:

• Timothée Parrique
• Slow Down or Die: The Economics of Degrowth, by Timothée Parrique
• The Limits to Growth

Related episodes:

• How Degrowth Will Save the World with Jason Hickel
• Doughnut Economics with Kate Raworth
• Better Lives for All w/ Jason Hickel
• Buen Vivir with Eduardo Gudynas
• A World Without Profit with Jennifer Hinton
• Documentary #8: Worker Cooperatives Pt. 1 – Widening Spheres of Democracy
• Documentary #8: Worker Cooperatives Pt. 2 – Islands within a Sea of Capitalism
• Life Beyond the Clock with Jenny Odell

Intermission music: "Atlas" by Muma

Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

This is a free preview of the episode "Venezuela Ep. 3: Sanctions as Economic Warfare w/ Cira Pascual Marquina." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to biweekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show, and it will also give you access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes along with stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. You'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going.

Cira Pascual Marquina joins us to discuss sanctions with a focus on the US-imposed coercive economic measures on Venezuela. Cira Pascual Marquina is a researcher and popular educator at El Panal commune in Venezuela. She's the author of the Present as Struggle: Voices from the Bolivarian Revolution with Chris Gilbert and co-host along with Chris of the Marxist educational project Escuela de Cuadros.

Our conversation with Cira opens with an update on the United States' military buildup in the Caribbean and the escalation of threats by the Trump administration against the Venezuelan people and their elected president Nicolás Maduro. We discuss what sanctions are more broadly, how they work, and how they are deployed as a weapon of war against governments that defy US hegemony. We then take a deep dive into the history of sanctions against Venezuela, the impact they've had, how the government and the people of Venezuela have resisted these sanctions, and how we can stand in solidarity with Venezuela during this period of heightened US aggression.

Further resources:

• Venezuela, the Present as Struggle Voices from the Bolivarian Revolution, by Cira Pascual Marquina and Chris Gilbert
• A Special Issue on Communes in Socialist Construction (Monthly Review)
• Venezuela Analysis

Related episodes:

• Listen to our ongoing series on Venezuela
• Listen to our ongoing series on China

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

A quick but important announcement: if you're a recurring donor through Flipcause (not Patreon, but Flipcause) please check your spam folder for an email from upstreampodcast.org because we've sent out some important emails regarding your donation and the Flipcause platform. Check your spam for the subject line "Action required: your Upstream donation." And just a reminder that this is only for Flipcause donors, not Patreon subscribers—if you're a Patreon subscriber please completely disregard this announcement.

In this episode, Immanuel Ness joins us for a discussion on migration as economic imperialism. We begin the conversation looking at the causes of migration—both intentional, structural parts of the global capitalist economy and also as certain consequences of this economic system, things like wars, sanctions, and ecological devastation. Immanuel then discusses the various ways in which migration is a function of imperialism, dispelling the myth among Western economists and the development industrial complex that migration actually benefits workers and helps to develop their countries of origins, but that migration in fact leads to underdevelopment of origin states, a dependency of Global South countries on the West, and heightened global inequality. We talk about the attack on immigrants in the United States and analyze the Trump administration's war on immigrants from a dialectical materialist perspective before ending the conversation discussing what a rational, humane system of labor migration might look like.

Immanuel Ness is Professor of Political Science at the City University of New York (CUNY), Brooklyn, School of Humanities and Social Sciences and author of Migration as Economic Imperialism: How International Labour Mobility Undermines Economic Development in Poor Countries.

Further resources:

• Migration as Economic Imperialism: How International Labour Mobility Undermines Economic Development in Poor Countries, by Immanuel Ness
• Unequal Exchange A Study of the Imperialism of Trade (Updated Edition), by Arghiri Emmanuel
• How China Escaped Shock Therapy: The Market Reform Debate, by Isabella M. Weber
• The Magnitsky Act: Behind the Scenes (film)
• The Condition of the Working Class in England (Preface to the English Edition), by Frederick Engels

Related episodes:

• From the Frontlines: Class Struggle and Class War in the US Southeast w/ Cecilia Guerrero
• Immigration, ICE, and Working Class Rebellion w/ Cecilia Guerrero
• Listen to our ongoing series on China
• Our onging series on the Alliance of Sahel States
• Marx's Capital Vol. 1 w/ David Smith
• Marx's Capital Vol. 2 w/ Richard Wolff and Shahram Azhar
• Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism w/ Breht O'Shea and Alyson Escalante
• The Imperial Boomerang w/ Julian Go

Intermission music: "Unfair" by Bliss

Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

This is a free preview of the episode "Venezuela Ep. 2: Socialist Communes and Anti-Imperialism w/ Chris Gilbert." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to biweekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show, and it will also give you access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes along with stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. You'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going.

Chris Gilbert joins us to discuss Venezuela's socialist communes from a Marxist, anti-imperialist perspective. Chris Gilbert is a professor at Venezuela's Bolivarian University and a writer based in Caracas. Grounded in a Marxist perspective, his research includes communes, socialist strategy, social reproduction theory, and imperialism. He's the author of Commune or Nothing! Venezuela's Communal Movement and its Socialist Project and Venezuela, the Present as Struggle: Voices from the Bolivarian Revolution with Cira Pascual Marquina. He's also a co-host of the Marxist educational podcast and television program Escuela de Cuadros.

In this episode, we open with a discussion on the socialist commune itself and what Marx had to say about communes as they relate to socialism before we examine the Venezuelan commune movement, distinguishing it from the hippy communes of popular culture and also from more anarchist-inspired communes like the Zapatista Autonomous Regions in Chiapas or the communes of Rojava. We discuss the way the Bolivarian revolution unfolded from the early 1990s to the present and the role that communes have played in laying the foundations for anti-imperialism and socialism. In the second half of the conversation we take a look at current events, taking stock of the Trump administration's escalation of aggression and tackling the narrative of Venezuela as a narco-state, the Trump administration's obsession with Tren de Aragua, and more.

Although the episodes in our series build on each other in certain ways, all of our series are designed so that each episode can be listened to as a standalone.

Further resources:

• Chris Gilbert's website and books
• "Socialist Communes and Anti-Imperialism: The Marxist Approach," by Chris Gilbert
• A Special Issue on Communes in Socialist Construction, by Chris Gilbertand Cira Pascual Marquina
• The staggering death toll of Western sanctions, Jason Hickel
• Changing Venezuela by Taking Power: The History and Policies of the Chavez Government, by Gregory Wilpert
• Building the Commune: Radical Democracy in Venezuela, by Geo Maher

Related episodes:

• Listen to our ongoing series on Venezuela
• Listen to our ongoing series on China
• Listen to our onging series on the Alliance of Sahel States
• Marx's Capital Vol. 1 w/ David Smith
• Marx's Capital Vol. 2 w/ Richard Wolff and Shahram Azhar
• [UNLOCKED] Oil, Monopoly Capitalism, and Imperialism w/ Adam Hanieh
• Western Marxism w/ Gabriel Rockhill
• Washington Bullets: A History of the CIA, Coups, and Assassinations, by Vijay Prashad
• Immigration, ICE, and Working Class Rebellion w/ Cecilia Guerrero

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

In this episode, Part 5 of our ongoing Post Capitalist Parenting series, Jo delAmor joins us for a wide-ranging conversation about raising children in the midst of a global crisis. We open our discussion with a nod to the late scholar and activist Joanna Macy and the Work That Reconnects which she developed and which has shaped and influenced both Jo and Della's work. We then talk about Jo's framing of the power over and thriving life paradigms and the role they play in how we parent under capitalism. Della and Jo talk about the false paradigm of separation and how this can be overcome through a deep understanding and practice of interconnectedness and how this can be imparted to our children. And finally, Jo invites us to see parenting as activism and to relearn the world alongside our growing children, partnering with them on behalf of life.

Jo is the author of Raising Children in the Midst of Global Crisis: A Compassionate Guidebook for New Paradigm Parenting. She is also a mother, coach, and Work That Reconnects facilitator who has cared for and worked with hundreds of other people's children of all ages in a wide variety of contexts over twenty years. In all her work with children, she has paid close attention to what the next generations truly need at this pivotal time on Earth, charting what works, what doesn't, and what is being called forth from us as parents, mentors, neighbors, and teachers.

Further resources:

• Radiant Balance
• Raising Children in the Midst of Global Crisis: A Compassionate Guidebook for New Paradigm Parenting, by Jo delAmor
• Parenting in Tumultuous Times: an online Work That Reconnects program for parents
• Paradigm as Choice in the Great Turning: a Work That Reconnects Network Webinar with Woman Stands Shining (Pat McCabe)
• Postactivism, Transraciality and Decoloniality: a WTR Network Webinar with Bayo Akomolafe
• Braiding Sweetgrass Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants, by Robin Wall Kimmerer
• Raising Free People, by Akilah Richards
• Braiding Sweetgrass Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants, by Robin Wall Kimmerer
• Columbus and Other Cannibals The Wetiko Disease of Exploitation, Imperialism, and Terrorism, by Jack Forbes

Related episodes:

• Listen to our ongoing Post Capitalist Parenting series
• The Work That Reconnects with Joanna Macy

Intermission music: "Believe" by Amanda West

Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

This is a free preview of the episode "Alliance of Sahel States Ep. 3: Hyperimperialism w/ Mikaela Nhondo Erskog." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to bi-weekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show, and it will also give you access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes along with stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. You'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going.

Mikaela Nhondo Erskog joins us for a wideranging conversation about hyperimperialism and the Sahel's fight against it. We begin the conversation talking about the anti-LGBTQ law that was passed in Burkina Faso criminalizing "acts of homosexuality." We explore the law itself (part of a broader family code bill) and explore how we in the West can wrestle with the contradictions it presents. We then focus our conversation on hyperimperialism, looking at how Western Africa is responding to decades of colonialism and neocolonialism. We talk about what the decline of the US portends for the future of the Global South, the on-the-ground development projects that the AES is embarking on with Russia and China, how the AES and other states on the African continent are attempting to reverse decades of underdevelopment and unequal exchange, and much more.

Mikaela Nhondo Erskog is a researcher at Tricontinental. a doctoral student in International Relations at Fudan University in Shanghai, and regional coordinator of the International People's Assembly in Pan Africanism Today.

Although the episodes in our series build on each other in certain ways, all of our series are designed so that each episode can be listened to as a standalone.

Further resources:

• Tricontinental
• The Sahel Seeks Sovereignty
• Hyper-Imperialism: A Dangerous Decadent New Stage
• International People's Assembly
• Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) 2025 Yearbook

Related episodes:

• Our ongoing series on the Alliance of Sahel States
• Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism w/ Breht O'Shea and Alyson Escalante
• Post Capitalist Parenting Pt. 3: A Dialectical Perspective w/ Breht O'Shea
• NATO Pt. 1: An Anti-Imperialist Introduction w/ Elina Xenophontos
• Third Worldism and the Bandung Spirit w/ Pranay Somayajula
• Listen to our ongoing series on China
• (Chinese) Socialism vs (U.S.) Capitalism

Artwork: Soviet-era propaganda poster by Eduard Artsrunyan titled "Colonialism is Doomed!"

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

In this episode, Part 4 of our ongoing Post Capitalist Parenting series, Robina Khalid joins us to talk about the process of birthing from the perspective of a midwife.

Robina is a mother of four, a writer, former academic, and activist. In this conversation, Robina shares with us the fascinating history of the field of obstetrics and its white supremacist, colonialist, and capitalist roots. We explore what midwifery is, the role it has traditionally played in society, and how capitalism's devaluing of this important health science and profession has negatively impacted the birthing experience in the contemporary world. Additionally, in this episode, Della shares about her recent birthing experience and Robina describes how we can simultaneously hold an appreciation for modern medicine while being critical of Western medicine under capitalism. Finally, Robina shares with us her vision of what post capitalist birthing could look and feel like and provides some invitations for everyone listening.

Further resources:

• Small Things Grow Midwifery
• Small Things Growing (Substack)
• "Beyond too little, too late and too much, too soon: a pathway towards evidence-based, respectful maternity care worldwide," Lancet
• Mama Sana Vibrant Woman

Related episodes:

• Listen to our ongoing Post Capitalist Parenting series
• A Socialist Perspective on Abortion with Diana Moreno & Jenny Brown
• Decolonizing Medicine with Rupa Marya and Raj Patel
• Post Capitalism w/ Alnoor Ladha

Intermission music: "Labour of Love" by Carsie Blanton

Covert art: Palestine Poster Project, Naim 1975

Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

This is a free preview of the episode "Venezuela Ep. 1: A Socialist Introduction w/ Vijay Prashad." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to bi-weekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show, and it will also give you access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes along with stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. You'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going.

Vijay Prashad joins us to discuss Venezuela's history, politics, and its ongoing fight against US imperialism. Vijay Prashad is a journalist, political commentator, and Executive Director of Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research. He's the author of many books, including The Darker Nations, Washington Bullets: The History of the CIA, Coups, and Assassinations, and Red Star Over the Third World.

In this episode, we discuss Venezuela's political and economic conditions prior to the Bolivarian Revolution of 1999 when Hugo Chávez came to power. We discuss how oil colonialism kept Venezuela in a state of underdevelopment and poverty. Vijay tells us about the promise of the Bolivarian Revolution and how it was delivered, the obstacles that Venezuela continues to face in its fight against imperialism, the hybrid war of coup attempts, sanctions, and propaganda campaigns imposed by the US, what socialism in Venezuela actually looks like, the most recent escalation by the Trump administration, and much more.

Although the episodes in our series build on each other in certain ways, all of our series are designed so that each episode can be listened to as a standalone.

Further resources:

• Tricontinental's work on Venezuela
• Washington Bullets: A History of the CIA, Coups, and Assassinations, by Vijay Prashad
• The Fort Bragg Cartel: Drug Trafficking and Murder in the Special Forces, by Seth Harp
• The Politics of Heroin:CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade, by Alfred W. McCoy

Related episodes:

• Listen to our ongoing series on Venezuela
• The Fight for The Congo w/ Vijay Prashad
• China Pt. 3: Bourgeois Democracy vs Socialist Democracy w/ Vijay Prashad
• A History of the CIA, Coups, and Assassinations w/ Vijay Prashad
• The Logical Case for Socialism (and Against Capitalism) w/ Scott Sehon

Artwork: Political Repression in Latin America Poster printed by La Raza Silkscreen, 1975.

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

In this episode we've invited on two guests for a wide-ranging conversation around the Gaza Freedom Flotilla and the movement it's part of: Chris Smalls and Huwaida Arraf.

Chris Smalls is a labor organizer, founder and former President of the Amazon Labor Union, and was a member of the most recent Freedom Flotilla voyage to Gaza. In this conversation, Chris shares about his experience on the Handala—the boat that sailed from Italy to the coast off of Gaza in an attempt to break Israel's illegal siege and blockade of food, medicine, and other lifesaving necessities in Palestine. We talk about the IOF's siege of the Handala in the waters of the Mediterranean just off the coast of Gaza and Chris's treatment after being kidnapped by Israel. We also explore the connection between working class politics in the United States and the struggle for liberation in Palestine, the complicity of the Western labor movement and the Democratic Party in the Palestinian genocide, the need for a labor party in the US, and what's next for the Freedom Flotilla missions.

Huwaida Arraf is a Palestinian-American human/civil rights attorney, co-founder of the International Solidarity Movement, and organizer with the Freedom Flotilla. In this conversation, Huwaida tells us about the history of the Freedom Flotilla and the various voyages to Gaza from 2008 to the present. We discuss the framework of international law, whether or not it still exists in a meaningful way, and how Israel and the US routinely violate it. Finally, we talk about a possible future where those responsible for the Palestinian siege and genocide, from Israeli leaders to IOF foot soldiers, are held accountable for their war crimes and crimes against humanity, and what the future holds for more freedom flotillas defying the brutal and illegal siege on Gaza.

Although the episodes in our series build on each other in certain ways, all of our series are designed so that each episode can be listened to as a standalone.

Further resources:

• Donate to ANERA (American Near East Refugee Aid)
• Donate to MECA (Middle East Children's Alliance)
• Freedom Flotilla
• Amazon Labor Union
• International Solidarity Movement
• The Hind Rajab Foundation
• Taxpayers Against Genocide
• Global Sumud Flotilla
• Thousand Madleens to Gaza
• US Boats to Gaza

Related episodes:

• Listen to our ongoing Palestine series
• From the Frontlines: Organizing Against Amazon w/ Chris Smalls and Mars Verrone
• What Is To Be Done? with Breht O'Shea and Alyson Escalante

Intermission music: A section of "Deepwater Horizon Dream" by Robert Raymond

Covert art: Palestine Poster Project, Abel El Hameed

Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

This is a free preview of the episode "China Ep. 7: A Socialist Response to the COVID Pandemic w/ Creighton Ward, Alessandro Zancan, and Kevin Li." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast

As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to bi-weekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show, and it will also give you access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes along with stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. You'll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going.

In this episode we take a deep dive into one of the most impressive and underreported achievements of the 21st century: China's Zero COVID policy. Zero COVID was a mostly successful attempt by the world's largest socialist state to protect its population (and, as we'll see, the world's population) from the SARS-CoV virus.

Creighton Ward, Kevin Li, and Alessandro Zancan are our guests for this conversation. Creighton is a member of the Friends of Socialist China, Qiao Collective, and a Long COVID, ME/CFS patient advocate. Kevin is a member of Qiao Collective working as a writer and translator and is trained in public health and epidemiology. And Alessandro is a Marxist artist and developer, a member of the Iskra Books editorial board and a member of the Friends of Socialist China Britain Committee.

In this conversation we unpack the various elements of China's Zero COVID policy—contact tracing, mass testing, border quarantine, and, of course, lockdowns. We talk about the results that Zero COVID had, which could perhaps be characterized as one of the most remarkable achievements of the 21st century. We compare China's socialist COVID response to that of the West—particularly the US and the UK—and discuss how these very different political and economic systems operate and what this means about how they value human life and societal well-being. We explore China's international solidarity during the initial phases of the pandemic, dispel some of the most common myths about China's COVID response, explore a bit about China's overall healthcare system, and analyze the different experiences of living in a country with socialist values versus living in a country where capital accumulation is all that matters.

Although the episodes in our series build on each other in certain ways, all of our series are designed so that each episode can be listened to as a standalone.

Further resources:

• Qiao Collective
• Friends of Socialist China
• A look back on three years of China's anti-Covid-19 fight, by Tings Chak
• Let Them Eat Plague!
• UCLA Covid Behind Bars Data Project
• Comparing the response to Covid-19 in China and the US

Related episodes:

• Listen to our ongoing series on China
• Health Communism with Beatrice Adler-Bolton
• COVID and the Pandemic with Beatrice Adler-Bolton

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.