So upfront I want to apologize for the sound quality (or lack thereof) on this episode. Brett, Michelle, and I just started riffing completely off-topic and unplanned, and wouldn't you know it there was some great content but the sound buggered out on me. I have tried to clean it up the best I can. Enjoy!

 

What are the major school of theoretical orientation?

https://counseling.northwestern.edu/blog/five-counseling-theories-and-approaches/

 

Transcript:

you're listening to psych with mike for more episodes or to connect with the show with comments ideas or to be a 0:06 guest go to www.cyclicmike.com follow the show on twitter at psych with 0:13 mike or like the facebook page at psych with mike now here's cycling welcome to the site 0:19 with my vibrate this is starting did you want to repeat that no did i edit all your best 0:24 no i don't need to people that watch it regularly know that and we are here with mr brett newcomb 0:31 hi miss michelle steg how are you doing michelle good for you it's good to have you here again 0:37 thank you oh okay i thought you had something no i just i'm happy to be here with two clinicians 0:43 that i've trained and mentored through the years to be more like me 0:49 does it make you you know what i actually and this is the first time i've ever 0:55 thought this how does it make you feel to be in a room 1:01 with other individuals that you have trained and to know 1:09 is that exactly what i said 1:16 no you know one of the reasons that i've agreed to do this podcast that we've done over the last couple of years and we get close and flow 1:23 towards me and gold is to make the podcast address itself to 1:28 people that are interested in doing therapy as clinicians or 1:33 in getting understanding what therapy is like without being in therapy from clinicians 1:38 and so we try to have conversations and address those issues so i'm intrigued 1:44 with the three of us talking because we've all had similar clinical training 1:49 and similar clinical experiences but we have different perspectives on how to do it in the room and so i was hoping we 1:56 could kind of talk about some of those differences one of my arguments has always been that 2:01 psychologists rewrite the same articles and put different words and 2:07 call it something new so it sounds like something fresh is out there it's the same old stuff right 2:12 but fundamentally i believe that to be a clinician to do therapy 2:18 you have to have a mind map that helps you 2:23 understand what everything is going on with people and where the pieces that are out of 2:28 focus or that are broken might reside and how to find them and help bring them 2:34 into focus help correct them uh that's a clinical challenge yeah and 2:40 you have to do it with respect you have to do it with passion uh you have to do it 2:45 with consummate attention i i used to for 30 years i taught at university in a 2:50 nighttime program from 5 30 to 9 30 at night and i would regularly say to my students because 2:56 they'd be great at 5 30 6 6 30 quarter 7 then they start checking their money 3:02 they're gone and they'll check their emails and stuff and i would say to them this is what it's like to do there 3:08 you have to this opportunity to learn how to discipline yourself to be in the background and pay attention what's going on what people are bringing to you 3:15 to consider and they will look at each other what the hell was he talking about yeah i hear all your voices once a week 3:22 i swear to that because i on those days where you're tired or you know i was telling you i had an 3:28 insane day with my kid and i mean i lived like four days already and then i had to go to therapy 3:35 and i but i do i remember that and i hear your voice saying these people are paying you you're on the clock right 3:41 you are on the clock their money is worth something and you show up yeah you bring it you bring it you have to worry 3:47 about it put your stuff in a box and bring it right yeah right at least i i do passionate believe that 3:54 i agree completely i always called that a theoretical orientation that a person has to have a theoretical orientation 4:00 and if you don't have a theoretical orientation that you can define then you don't have a theoretical orientation and 4:06 it isn't easy in knowledge that was a collective jeff well then people say eclectic and so what eclectic means is 4:11 that you have i don't have uh kinds of tools to be able to be 4:19 effective in therapy and it's fine to be eclectic as long as you can define it but if you say i'm eclectic and you 4:25 can't define it then you don't why is that really important to you because what brett was talking about he 4:32 uses the concept of mind map and whether it's a mind map or however you think of it if you don't have some 4:39 idea of where you think that human pathology evolves from then you don't 4:45 have an idea of how human pathology evolves and if you don't have an idea then you're just shooting in the dark 4:52 and if you're getting paid to do it i don't believe that that's how you should 4:58 approach i think that you should have a very clear like i can use cognitive 5:03 behavioral interventions but my understanding of how human 5:08 pathology evolves is through the heinz kohut theory of how 5:14 emotional regulation develops through the concepts of idealization twinship 5:20 and mirroring and i can explain in great depth and detail what all of those things mean so i would say that i am 5:28 psychodynamic very specifically object relations and even more specifically 5:34 cohadian within that field of object relations but i use other techniques as well but i 5:41 can define what that means for me and you don't have to understand it that way yeah but i have to understand it that 5:47 way so that i have a frame of reference to approach when i'm working with a client but you don't need to explain 5:53 that to the client well well i think that you're i know getting 5:59 off on it when you do this i know uh you need to know that because you're putting yourself in the room saying i 6:04 think i can help you the client needs to know i'm going to get heard this is going to be a safe place and this person 6:11 can help me they don't need to know your theory and for you to spend i mean to me it's the same conversation as i'm a christian 6:18 therapist yeah i work with christians i work with jews i work with catholics i work with arabs it doesn't matter but i don't 6:25 proselytize my theory of religion or counseling 6:31 and i struggle with that you know i struggle with that because you know my i 6:36 have a a a belief that language matters and that 6:42 agree if you present the language to the client that that gives them them a basis 6:49 to start to use language for themselves they don't have to use the same language that i use but if they don't have a 6:56 language then they need to be able to develop a language to be able to start to think about so it's like 7:02 metacognition thinking about thinking you have to be able to have the language to do that to be able to do that i can 7:08 buy that argument yeah yeah what do you think um i just have here 7:13 comes your part stuff right everybody likes to make the part of me party was so a part of me immediately 7:20 shuts down when we talk about theories but that's that's just like my stuff i think that's my 7:26 system that really um struggled in school to understand the 7:32 context of like um it probably had some learning disabilities that went under diagnosed 7:38 as a kid or undiagnosed as a kid and so when we start using the language um so 7:46 you don't see yourself as an intellectual well and you see this as an intellectual discussion i do and i just 7:51 i just shut down and then i then i get also oppositional but she can't count the question 8:01 so you're obviously much closer to brett i haven't seen you since the last time 8:06 that i had you in class and i was a lot less wrinkled we were trying to we were trying to i was trying to figure out 8:12 when that was uh but my recollection of you was as a superior 8:19 student and so now i'm hearing you say that you didn't feel that way and i'm wondering 8:26 i mean was was my impression because you put a show you know what i'm 8:32 saying say it yeah no i'll explain why but that's a fair question yeah so um i 8:38 i got my first 4.0 when i went to grad school like i i it was it was like i 8:44 found my home but i didn't find i 8:49 at that stage of the game i realized how much of an auditory learner i was so 8:55 realistically i was not reading the books with the theories and 9:01 what i learned to do was sit and master auditory learning and skills of 9:08 observation and was able to retain all the information that way through 9:13 observation so when i was like spitballing in class and making observations it wasn't bs 9:21 it was that i wasn't finding who i was as a therapist through textbooks i was 9:27 finding it through my experiences with you in class with you in class and 9:33 you talking about caseloads or um you know the group therapy class it was 9:39 like that was where i learned to be a therapist when it came 9:44 to the theories it was all lost on youtube gotcha in a sense so you can see the modeling and internalize the 9:50 modeling correct but you couldn't read the books the script it was very much like a 9:55 sensory experience like i could cure the model 10:01 experience it see it play out but i i couldn't read the words and so there's 10:06 always a party that kind of does shut down when we talk about the truth that's fascinating in part because i've always had the 10:13 opinion that good therapists have to be acute observers 10:19 and the subset of that is most of them are survivors of one kind of trauma together 10:26 because that chatter or channel that's going on in all of us all the time as we scan 10:33 uh you have to be able to process and understand and apply yes 10:39 and those are clinical skills and what you're saying is you had those when you came to the program 10:45 and you use them to develop your clinical clinical skills i believe i mastered that now you are 10:51 living i do right right and and i think 10:57 yeah very much so like it's a little embarrassing because i don't want somebody to take my license but like 11:02 i don't remember reading a lot nobody listens to the show right okay all right then we're safe here 11:08 for sure right it was such a sensory experience for me like 11:14 um i was i i just i quit fighting the game of the battle of college like i figured out 11:21 how i was a good learner and it was through like mastering the art of observation and becoming acutely aware 11:28 of subtle shifts and movements and whatever and it shows but but i i hear you 11:35 saying that as if it were a deficit but i hear it as a strength 11:44 where your strong suit was what you're where your wheelhouse was and then you played to that that just seems smart to 11:49 me well i think you know early on when i was early in school like early in my master's it felt like a deficit because 11:56 there were all these like cerebral conversations happening because everybody read the book and i'm sitting there intellectual masturbation exactly 12:02 exactly what it was and so then i remember sitting there being like feeling embarrassed or self-conscious 12:08 like i didn't understand the material and it just clicked one day and i was like stop reading the material and just 12:14 absorb because you'll gather everything you need to know from what brett tells you and when you know mike starts to speak 12:21 on this and it i i feel like i did i turned it into a real positive i was really insecure about it at first and now 12:29 i don't know i think it's kind of my memory skills so then i i feel i'm gonna ask this question 12:35 yeah maybe it's a bad reflection on me i didn't teach you ifs i know that no you 12:40 did not so so uh so how did you how did you find internal family systems from my own 12:47 therapist uh karen grayson so another uh right 12:54 so yeah she um we're very ancestors i was literally about to say that yeah um yeah i was doing my own work with her 13:00 and then she introdu the world's collided at the same time leading education 13:08 and she introduced this to me and my mind exploded because 13:14 probably because i'm a visual learner an auditory and when you learn ifs and you learn about parts white its way it's so 13:21 beautiful for men because men really struggle right we talked about with having these feelings 13:27 they're just these like abstract thoughts that are like floating around and they don't quite know what to do with them and when we talk about parts 13:36 it takes feelings and it grounds them and it makes them very it gives them a place to be it 13:42 makes them visual and men like visuals and it makes it turns feelings tangible 13:49 and it rocked my world it absolutely rocked my world it was 13:56 struggling i'm saying that because you're i wasn't struggling in terms of like 14:02 being able to identify what my theory was like i can tell you what i pull from and whatnot but 14:07 when i found ifs it was like 14:13 you know when you fall in love and you're have you been all my life like it 14:18 solidified i have art in my office from a client that's um that says we are not just one 14:25 we are made up of parts and she drew that for me over 10 years ago 14:30 and then i was introduced to ifs and it gave me the language and i was like holy 14:36 you know holy i've been doing this this entire time and it just gave me the language right 14:42 i did like i am that good i just now have language for it you know yeah so that so yeah i found ifs probably six 14:50 seven years ago maybe um yeah just it you know why i really love it is that 14:56 it's it's not super clinical i am not 15:02 a stuffy like i just i'm not a clinical person um 15:07 in therapy because i don't think my clients really care about the clinical side they just want 15:13 to get better and they just want to i think it's constant does that make sense of course it makes sense you help me you 15:20 know we get better yeah better yeah and so ifs did that for me well i think that that 15:27 there are a lot of people i've always said there are two ways you can do therapy you can just alleviate symptomology and feel 15:34 better and that is one way you can do it or you can dive into a real headlong if you know 15:42 seeking hypnosis and epiphany and genuine self-understanding and i think 15:48 that different people have to do it differently and that's why they're different therapists and i don't think that any way is necessarily superior but 15:57 i do think that there need to be people who do it different ways because it's going to 16:03 reach different people absolutely not every teacher is good for about differently 16:09 every student right and i tell people all the time i i am not 16:14 for everyone exactly i am direct i can be polarizing at times like i i 16:20 but a lot of it comes from the things we learned in class of like 16:25 i'm not going to sit here and waste your time i cost a lot of money so we're going to we're going to move and typically by the time somebody's 16:31 found me they've heard that reputation but absolutely yeah um but people pay a lot 16:38 of money and so let's not waste their time and but a lot of the directness comes from the yelling 16:44 stuff of working in the here and now right right so that's all you really 16:50 have absolutely because our offices sitting in the room what do we feel what do we have what information what 16:56 behaviors here and now are we in touch with not there and then out there somewhere 17:01 we can speculate we can anticipate we can plan but all we really have is what's here and if you think about what 17:08 we talked about last time in terms of how do you help as we were talking specifically about men but creating that 17:14 awareness for men is processing in the here and now and sitting across from a man and going hey i'm holding my breath 17:21 right now that tells me you are yeah why why aren't we breathing here's the projective identification 17:27 yeah yeah so let's take our break and let's pick this up on your site okay 17:33 hey everybody dr michael mahon here from site with mike and i couldn't be more excited to talk to you about athletic 17:39 greens which is a new sponsor we have here on the show i started taking athletic greens watching some youtube 17:46 videos and doing my own research i wanted to add something to my daily workout program to give me some energy 17:53 and to support gut health and that was the one thing that kept coming up again 17:58 and again with athletic greens is the guy who started the company did a bunch of research because he was 18:04 having some gut health issues that he couldn't get any resolution for he developed athletic greens and it's just 18:12 exploded from there so it's 75 superfoods vitamins minerals probiotics 18:18 whole food sources that's all in one daily scoop you put it in eight or 18:23 twelve ounces of water you shake it up and you drink it the taste is very very 18:28 drinkable i actually enjoy it and i have been using it and my energy 18:34 levels have just been through the roof i really like athletic greens because of 18:39 some of the sustainability things that they do so they buy carbon credits and 18:45 you know to help protect the rainforest which is something that i really like but if you order athletic greens in your 18:52 subscription you're going to also get a year's supply of their vitamin d 18:58 supplementation and five free travel packs and that vitamin d is so important 19:04 during those winter months when we're not getting enough sunlight we've talked about how that decreases your mood and 19:12 increases depression and that can be a real deal changer so you go to 19:17 athleticgreens.com emerging that's 19:23 slash athleticgreens.com that's the psych with mike promo and 19:28 you're gonna get that additional vitamin d support for a year and five free 19:34 travel packs so take control of your own health today and as always if it's 19:40 friday it's psych with mike okay we're back so uh that here and now 19:47 focus that comes from mount yavan which is an existential that's that known as an existentialist 19:53 uh is so important 19:58 for really any kind of therapy but when you're saying okay we're not breathing 20:05 why aren't we breathing and that's a here and now focus then 20:10 how where is i where does i at best come into that so it doesn't okay 20:18 it doesn't so um i i mean it can 20:23 but i find myself just oscillating um when appropriate to so you're not 20:29 getting limited by the structure no you are engaged in the process of the 20:35 conversation correct so like remember so i said i i have a tendency i have a part of me right that shuts down when we talk 20:41 about theories so if someone were to label me as an ifs therapist i'm immediately 20:46 going we're not labeling that either that is a very big piece of what i do but if we're 20:54 processing and you're now saying like so i'm not breathing that tells me you're not breathing 21:00 help me help me understand what's happening here i can say if i want to incorporate ifs i can say because it 21:05 happens often i feel like there has been a shift inside of you which tells me a part of 21:11 the stuff then can you be aware of that can you check in with your assistant 21:16 and tell me what part just stepped in because we were guiding and we were we were moving 21:21 and then i said this and there was a shift in your energy which leads me to believe a part again 21:27 it's constant teaching of awareness so we mentioned y'all yalum 21:34 was a leading author and theorist in the field of counseling 21:40 psychology i'm enamored with him in his work one of the things that he talks about 21:48 is that all of us and it drives a lot of dysfunctional behavior especially in men 21:53 uh having anxiety about death and fear of death uh and as we get older or as 22:00 critical events happen in our lives the underlying issue that therapist 22:05 needs to be aware of is this person is fear-dying facing their own immortality whatever 22:11 that means and i remember because i came to you as a therapist 22:18 and i remember getting in touch with that because i turned 74 i retired 22:25 couple of friends that died my age good friend of mine committed suicide 22:30 and i was really struggling with that i but i hadn't put it in purpose right and i'm sitting in the room with you and 22:36 you're inviting me to get in touch with all those feelings and i just started crying 22:43 wrong grief of loss and fear and you just very quietly sit there my 22:50 wife was placed on me and you were sitting there and you just softly said breathe 22:56 just breathe stay here and i couldn't i mean when my chest was frozen my throat was frozen my tears were i mean 23:03 like a blubbering child but in a little while it passed and i 23:09 could breathe so what you're describing about that isn't a technical theory it's not 10 23:17 chapters in a book that you can read and learn how to do right you have to be able to do it on the if somebody walks 23:22 in the room and they get in touch with these emotions you have to be able to be present and catch it and catch it and 23:29 hold them in a safe holding environment whatever it is when we were talking in the previous episode that we did about 23:35 rage yeah same thing a man who's grateful or angry in this moment and you're boiling with 23:42 it inside you as the clinician have to be able to sit and say it's okay stay with it 23:48 you know i hurt yourself you're not gonna punch the ball you gotta hurt me but you could feel his feelings and then this process was talking about but what 23:55 is time right now here now and my 24:00 orientation has always been and you know i say this all the time that 24:05 really everything comes down to the ability or lack thereof to 24:10 emotionally regulate so when i did my dissertation i was doing my dissertation on 24:16 substance abuse as an attachment disorder which there's very little information on but i 24:21 can make an argument for why i believe that uh and i got one third of the way through it and my 24:28 my uh chairperson who did not was not very confrontational uh came to me and 24:34 said oh you have to start over because all of this you know information is 20 years old and we want something that's 24:40 more recent and so i re did it and i did the biological similarities and 24:46 differences of depression and anxiety because i knew that i could get very very current research on that but the 24:52 point being that you know for me i've always said no one ever goes to 24:57 psychotherapy because they have a problem people go to psychotherapy because a problem that they have has 25:03 caused them emotional dysregulation if you can emotionally regulate you don't 25:08 need psychotherapy when you can't emotionally regulate the smallest problem in the world can cause you to 25:15 not be able to function and so for me it's all about trying to find 25:20 where is the dysfunction in the emotional regulation some people have never 25:26 been able to emotionally regulate they don't even know what that means they don't even yeah and and so it's all 25:34 about trump so to me it doesn't really matter like i have a very clearly 25:39 defined process or understanding of how i think 25:44 that emotional regulation develops that i can explain to people at great detail and nobody cares brett tells me all the 25:51 time nobody cares but it doesn't matter to me how people 25:56 come at that but that's the goal is how do i identify 26:01 where your emotional regulation breakdown is and how do i help you be able to emotionally regulate better and 26:09 when you can do that you don't need me anymore how does your theory though 26:14 lead people to the awareness of like needing to um 26:22 towards that emotional regulation like where how does that show up in your work 26:27 so for me the emotional regulation comes from as i said the co-hunting ideas of 26:32 mirroring idealization and twinship so you have a external model when you're 26:38 born you don't know how to emotionally regulate you're just emotion you have all of the biological components you have hormones 26:45 that get released in your body that change your body and you have emotional responses but you don't have any 26:50 self-soothing ability no emotional regulation and so you look to the external examples when the external 26:58 examples are good you learn how to emotionally regulate when they're not good or you don't internalize them 27:04 efficiently then there's a breakdown in that and so then you grow up and that's where to me 27:10 the insecurity comes from so for pj what he said is that that first stage of development is security versus 27:17 you know trust versus mistrust that's where security comes from if you don't 27:22 have grounded securities because in that very very early model 27:28 that wasn't modeled for you and so the process of psychotherapy is about giving 27:34 the client an alternative yes yeah okay 27:40 okay and so if i can come into that situation consistently enough yeah 27:47 and you can do whatever you want you're great it's not me re-parenting you right it's me 27:54 facilitating your ability giving you an example right yeah right and then you internalize a 28:00 different grown-up yes but but the therapist has to be able to 28:06 provide a consistent model for the client to be able to 28:12 see that and then internalize that what i call i say that therapists loan 28:18 their clients a little bit of ego until the client builds that for themselves 28:25 and can carry around with them 28:31 so one of the clinical arguments about that is do you as a clinician encourage 28:38 codependency of the client on you and there is an argument that can be 28:44 made that initially you need them to be dependent on you but you need to teach them how to become 28:50 independent in a healthy way exactly i mean when they are they leave but it's free parenting so i mean you 28:56 know that all goes into it now but but you know the the for me the difference 29:01 is the motivation of the therapist it's all about the counter transference if i feel 29:06 intentionally eliciting the dependence because that i get off 29:16 a part of the process of re-parenting with no 29:23 ego invested in it from my side then it's just a part of the process 29:31 well we were talking about that other way here like that constant awareness for clinicians to have the power 29:37 differentials that are in that space at all times and so yeah i feel like it's my job to be checking in on a regular 29:43 basis and having the uncomfortable conversations and essentially just modeling boundaries and how to 29:50 communicate and saying am i still meeting the needs in which you came here is there are you know is there anything 29:57 that we are doing that just doesn't feel right for you because people will stay because they want to be pleasing 30:02 and you know continue work that's not fulfilling what they need so i think 30:08 i think that's a way to to check those power differentials and not create that codependency or the 30:13 lasting codependency on the relationship but even when you're talking about these 30:19 angry males and so the angry male comes in and they can rage and then you can 30:24 sit with that and not react in a way that is cowering or 30:30 is submissive maybe for the first time yeah maybe for the first time in their experience that that's ever happened 30:36 that's giving them a different dynamic to play off of now i have an alternative 30:42 way of being able to understand this anger now can i allow myself to be 30:48 vulnerable enough to start to explore that that's the process of therapy right absolutely looking across from a man who 30:55 is raging and looking in the eyes and saying i'm not afraid 31:01 and 31:14 um when you to square a man up and say you are 31:20 not afraid of you can be significant yeah 31:26 but i think that that is that's a part of 31:32 the therapy experience and not that so so let me just say this start differently like 31:37 it's never occurred to me that i'm afraid in therapy like i've always said if i if 31:43 i ever went to work and i was afraid i would stop doing it yeah um and so i've never been in a situation where i mean 31:51 i've been in a situation point of situations where men have been rageful it's never occurred to me that i have to 31:57 say i'm not afraid of you because i just that that's not but i understand how that plays 32:04 differently with female therapists and because female therapists are 75 to 80 32:09 of the population of therapists the only way men are going to get therapy 32:15 statistically is a lot of them are going to be in therapy with females and 32:20 you know i so i think that what you are talking about is so salient how is a female going to sit in that and 32:28 be able to absorb that anger because of what what so what 32:33 is the counter transference for that female when the man is raging 32:40 and how do females learn to be able to [Music] 32:45 okay so let me ask you a question so do you do you resist 32:51 your is there something in you that says oh this guy's angry i should be subservient no i can't because i'm doing therapy or 32:58 have you trained yourself not do you understand what i'm saying i think so keep going finish that so do you or do you train yourself to 33:05 not be to not have that reaction uh i think not having the reaction comes 33:11 from my childhood number one and being around a lot of chaos and like knowing how to navigate that 33:17 um but number two um like we said in the last episode like 33:22 when i see that anger in that rage i see wounding and i feel compassionate 33:29 like i i don't know that i've had to train myself to do that as much as it just 33:35 organically is part of who i am i think that 33:40 talking about a marital situation when a couple's situation where the man is raising your ability to 33:47 experience that and reflect back to him i'm not afraid i'm aware that you're angry but i'm sitting with him and i'm 33:54 not afraid he's modeling for him what that's like in his life 33:59 other people and particularly women don't react that way but you're also modeling for the woman 34:04 who may be seeing this for the first time and may discover that's a thing that she can do absolutely 34:10 they both have a learning curve for helping survive his rage well and i'm even was 34:17 thinking as we were processing this that it's one thing for a man to come into therapy with another 34:24 man and to not have that man experience his rage as 34:30 uh yeah but it's a different thing for him to go to therapy with a woman and not 34:36 have the woman experience that rage as intimidating and i think both are beneficial both are 34:43 necessary for good therapy but go ahead as a flip side of that argument 34:48 i've had women say to me you can't know this yeah you can't know this because you're a man yeah and you can't know 34:54 what i'm feeling or you can't know what i'm seeing and yet they were experiencing that i want to snow yeah 35:00 and it wrote right it doesn't matter which sex if your world view is 35:06 people respond to this behavior this emanation from a particular way and you 35:12 have something that doesn't do that it's like well what the else going on here well right now i don't know what to 35:17 do right you change the script on me yeah exactly which is what you're trying to do absolutely it is 35:23 yeah so hopefully that was beneficial for people i think that was another really excellent clinical discussion and 35:29 i know that that is the aim uh for mr brett newcomb so i hope that he is just 35:34 delighted as always 35:39 i'm not gonna go uh as always the music that appears inside with mike is written and performed by mr 35:44 benjamin the clue we would love it if you would find us on the interwebs and uh 35:50 on apple podcast leave us a comment and a rating but most importantly if you go 35:56 to the youtubes and find psych with mike and subscribe to the show that would be fantastic and as always if it's friday 36:04 [Music] 36:12 [Music]