What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

Don't save your best stuff for last; start it off in a way that will grab the reader's attention and show that you've got something to say. In this podcast episode, Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson discuss the first page of your script and what you need to do to stand out.

Danny Zuker is a TV Writer and Producer known for Modern Family, Just Shoot Me, Off Centre, and Grace Under Fire.

Danny Zuker on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0958521/

Danny Zuker on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Zuker

Danny Zuker on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/dannyzuker

Danny Zuker on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannyzuker/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Danny Zuker (00:00):

So like, the people interested on the podcast who are aspiring and whatnot. Yeah. I mean, it is, and you can attest to this, and everybody I know can attest to it. Is he getting punched in the face contest? I mean, and there's no shame in stopping. It's just how many times he can get punched in the face. Because you will continually, I mean, I recently been punched, you know, I did a pilot and it was like all the way and boom, punched in the face and it's like, it never stops hurting. And at some point you just decide not to get up. I'm just not there yet.

Michael Jamin (00:26):

You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.

(00:34):

Hey everybody, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin. I got a special, very special guest today, Mr. Danny Zucker. You don't know who he is. You don't know who. I barely, we worked together on many for many years on a show called Just Shoot Me. But I want to, man, I want to, this guy is, you don't understand this guy in the industry. He's known as a joke machine. He is known as the guy who comes in and hits that home run joke that makes everyone just laugh out loud in every episode. And so, let me just talk about his credits and I'm gonna bring him in. He's got a ton of credits. So I guess we'll talk about this, but we, I guess he started out on the Arsenio Hall Show as a joke writer, evening Shade, which I didn't, I forgot about that cuz I was a PA on that show. But not when he was there. Roseanne, listen to his credits. Roseanne Grace Under Fire fired up. He probably, do you want, is it okay if I mention No, I guess I shouldn't mention

Danny Zuker (01:26):

That one. No, you can totally mention all the terrible

Michael Jamin (01:28):

Ones. jhu Me. We were, we, we worked together. Jesse Off Center, which he created Coupling the Men's Room, another show he created Surviving Suburbia, the Unusuals modern Family, which you've just got off of. So he was there for many seasons. But then also God the Devil and Bob Norm watching Ellie Oliver Bean come to Papa Stacked. I mean, dude

Danny Zuker (01:54):

Act I'm glad you finished on Stacked By

Michael Jamin (01:56):

Though. Yeah, that was a, yeah, . But what a man, dude, you have some, you have some you in in this podcast right now, I would say you have the second best credits.

Danny Zuker (02:07):

Who have you had who've had

Michael Jamin (02:09):

? No, I'm talking about me. Oh, no, your, your, your credits are fantastic, dude. I mean, a

Danny Zuker (02:14):

Lot.

Michael Jamin (02:15):

Oh,

Danny Zuker (02:16):

But great memoir in me when I want to get out of the business.

Michael Jamin (02:19):

Oh, but also you do, well, you, well, you can start writing it now, I suppose. . How dare you. How dare. But also can I even talk about this? Do you have a famous book about where you, you and Trump? You got into a this is before he was president, right?

Danny Zuker (02:34):

Yeah, it was, it was I think 2014 back when everybody hated Trump. Not just people who could read

Michael Jamin (02:41):

, but, and so you just started trolling him on Twitter

Danny Zuker (02:44):

Just randomly and just a little, like, just a small little tweet. It was like, and then he exploded and then we went onto a month long with hundreds of tweets back and forth. And if you go back and look at it, cause it went rebal when he got the nomination. But if you look at it, he didn't like I was just a beta test. There's nothing he said about anybody else, whether it's like whoever he wants to talk about that he didn't first try out on me to no effect

Michael Jamin (03:08):

Really.

Danny Zuker (03:09):

And always bugged me when the Democrats would say like well it's so hard to fight against. It's like, no, just read what I did. It's not that hard. I feel like anybody could dunk on him.

Michael Jamin (03:18):

I remembered thinking though you, that he picked the wrong fight. You don't pick a, a Battle of Witch with professional comedy writer. That's not what you want to do,

Danny Zuker (03:25):

. It's all I do. It's, yeah, it's like, it's like me getting into a Dunking contest with LeBron. It's not gonna work out. I have one skill period. I can't do anything other than this. It's all I was trained to do.

Michael Jamin (03:36):

And this was at Modern Family where you were a writer, and did you, did you wanna, did you bounce off any jokes off of anybody?

Danny Zuker (03:42):

No, in fact, I mean, I would, he started to go after Modern Family, like when he would, you know, and that became like something he would pick out at that point that when he started doing that, I went and I talked to the cast and the other writers and the cre co-creator Steve and Chris, and I said, Hey, like, you know, my show, I would just go forward, but it's your show, right? And they were like, no, get him. It's like, fine. And it was like, I have to say, like back then, you just have to remember like, he was a, he was such a safe target. Like I would have to scroll for scroll and scroll and scroll to find one tweet that supported him. Like one reply that supported him. And I'm sure it came from somebody in his office. What was weird and why I knew like, oh, shit's different is it went viral again in like 20 16, 20 17.

(04:31):

At which point I got a lot of like, you are an asshole. Y O U R. I got like, it was like, there was a lot of hate. Like people were on his side all of a sudden. It was like, what? Because it was Republicans, he was a joke. Right. You know? Right. and, and so it was like, whoa. It was really weird. And it was yeah, I mean it was, you know, I, I continued, I continued to be a voice, but, you know, I I, I had threats. I was hacked. I had a lot of stuff go down that was like sort of yeah, it was like, it, you know, it, it got a little bit scary. I mean, it's scarier for women who went up against

Michael Jamin (05:05):

Him. But at, at some point though, did he just block you?

Danny Zuker (05:08):

Oh, within the middle of that. And then by the end, after months, he blocked me and I stayed blocked all through his presidency. .

Michael Jamin (05:15):

And then how did that become a book?

Danny Zuker (05:17):

Well, I was doing it like at the 20, what was it? The the midterms, the 2018 midterms. I was part of like a democratic affiliation. Like there was some fundraiser. And they had asked me if I wanted to do like a live reading of my Twitter war. And like, you know, Tim Simons from a VE was there and he said he had an un enviable job of being Trump. And we did it. And then another friend of mine who does a lot of this stuff says we should put that out as a book. And, and then we just, I just wound up doing it.

Michael Jamin (05:47):

That's fantastic.

Danny Zuker (05:48):

Yeah. I mean, it's just a little, it's a hundred pages. It's like, it could not be sort of, and and, and I comment on the little tweets as they go along and Yeah. So . But and then I gave it to ch Yeah. And then I gave it to charities like, you know, Uhhuh legal aid for people at the border and Planned Parent, like all the things he, oh

Michael Jamin (06:04):

Good. Oh, now tell me. So I don't, I remember, it's so funny cause we worked together 20 something years

Danny Zuker (06:10):

Ago. I know a lot,

Michael Jamin (06:12):

But I, you remember, just so my audience knows, you were the guy who all of us wanted to impress in the room to make laugh. You were the guy cuz it was your approval. Yeah, it was. Because if we could make Danny laugh then Paul Yeah. Because you were the home run hitter.

Danny Zuker (06:29):

But that, but that room had, I felt like that room had a lot of heavy hitters. It's very flattering to know that. I mean, I always thought, you know, I thought you and your partner Siever were like, it was just, everybody was good.

Michael Jamin (06:40):

We were, we were all baby writers. But it, I mean there were definitely, it was a really talented, I think that might have been one of the most talented rooms I've been in, to be honest.

Danny Zuker (06:47):

It was certainly one of the, it was one of those rooms where like, cuz Just Shoot Me was a show that really survived on jokes. Like, it was like, the way it was built, it was like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't about like a lot of touchy-feely moments, you know, or we'd get to them occasionally. But it, what it was most successful at was like, you know, what are the s in that world? Yeah. And, and, and so, and we had a lot, you know, it was a lot of really good people. So,

Michael Jamin (07:11):

Man, and then, but you started, I forgot about this as a, as a joke writer on the Arsenio Hall Show.

Danny Zuker (07:17):

Yeah, it was weird. I mean, I got , I mean, I was quite young. I was like, I think like 24 or 25, and I managed to get like a like a pa job on that show. Cause I'd worked on as a pa on another show with a producer there. And anyway, I got there and, you know, we're doing run through things and it, you know, writers there had 13 week contracts. And in the first 13 weeks that show became an amazing hit. Like he was on the Coming Time magazine and he wound up purging a lot of the staff on a Friday. And I just went home. This, you know, I went home that night and now long ago, and on a typewriter looking at newspapers typed up a bunch of jokes and on Monday handed up, you know, my submission to some of the other writers there to put it in with the packet.

(08:03):

You know, they, because I knew they were looking and they knew I wanted to write. And on Monday, like he did one of my jokes. And then like on Tuesday he did two of my jokes. And on Thursday I had a good amount of jokes in. And on that Friday, the following Friday, he hired me. Wow. So it was like, but I, you know, I'd been doing jokes, you know, I don't, I wasn't, it's funny, I was like, we were doing a move in our house, like we were remodeling, something had to move out and we get, so go through all of these boxes and in one box I found, oh, my Arsenio jokes, like a big book of my Arsenio jokes. And I thought, this is a gold mine. I can sort of recycle some of these and put them in things. And I started reading through them and they were also shit. It was like, it was nothing salvageable , but I guess it worked for there.

Michael Jamin (08:43):

That's so, you know, cause I was a joke writer on the mic and Maddie's show for a little bit, and I had this

Danny Zuker (08:48):

That's right.

Michael Jamin (08:49):

But I would go through my material. I, I have the same like a binder like gold. Right. And I looked at it recently, I was, was like, there's nothing in here. It's terrible. It's

Danny Zuker (08:57):

Terrible. I would never hire this fucking guy.

Michael Jamin (08:59):

. But, but was it your goal, like in high school to be like a on to work, like late night or what? Or scripted?

Danny Zuker (09:07):

Yeah, it was. I mean, I really, you know, I wanted, I, I mean I, in high school I was doing some standup poorly, you know, cause I had nothing to say and, but I really did. I wanted to be on Letterman or snl. And and, you know, I got outta college and I did, like, I put together this reel that people seemed to like, and I got into Letterman it as like, you know, I talked to like Gerard Mulligan and a couple people there, and I mission and then, and I got my first rejection letter from them and the second one from snl. And and and I still have those. And they're, they, they, they're, because, you know, you go through that. I wound up getting a job with but glad up getting a job with Howard Stern, who was doing some box pilots.

(09:44):

He was gonna be the show that followed Joan Rivers Show. Right. And they never went, but it was, it was a couple months producing a week of shows, you know, practice shows. And well, a couple good things came outta that one. I've been friends with him for 30 something years as a result. Bob who was in my wedding, and right. But then, but then I also met a producer on that show who liked me, and he brought me out to, you know, he brought me out. He said, I have a a pa job out here if you want it. And, you know, so it all led from that. So,

Michael Jamin (10:12):

But you never decided to like resubmit to SNL or

Danny Zuker (10:16):

Letterman? I did. I mean, I was, you know, I was absolutely planning, but then I wound up getting an opportunity to be, you know, I, I got, I, I I wanted to. And then I came out here. It's funny because before I got the Arsenio Hall ugh, this is a really dark, like, horrible story. Before I got the Arsenio Hall show , I got I was like up for like, to be a baby writer. If you remember Pat Sack had a late night talk show mm-hmm. . Yeah. That was Pat s Show. And was a lot of my friends, a lot of good people were there. Like, you know, Fred Wolf who went on to write a lot of stuff for all those movies for David Spade and Chris Farley. But like, so I was submitting packages and the head writer there, this guy Monty, I don't mind trashing him on this.

(10:52):

He, he he put me through the ringer. Like I kept submitting like over the course of you know, weeks of submitting to him and with notes. And I was like, fine. I was like young and prolific. Anyway, I wind up going in and I get there and there's another guy, there's writer Rob Young, who went on to write Forleo for many, many years. And he and Mon said, here's the thing, you're both baby writers, so if you don't mind, I'll make you a baby writer team. You know, you'll means splitting a salary and all that and you have to be okay with it. And we're like, I was broke and had gotten no credit card. We were like, yeah, let's do it. My family was in town, my mom and my two sisters and and my stepdad and we're like all getting ready to go out and celebrate.

(11:34):

And as I'm getting out the door, the phone rings and it's Monty. And he said, you know what? We've re he gave me a key to the office, by the way. We've reconsidered. We're just gonna go with Rob. Oh my God. Like, after offering me the job. And I literally like my knees buckle and it was like the darkest meal ever. So I was really depressed for exactly 12 hours. And the next day Marla, this woman who went up to Bruce, the Arsenio Hall show called me and said, I can't offer you a writing job yet, but if you want, you can come in here and be like, like a, like a segment pa. And I was like, yes. And so that's all I wanted was the opportunity. So it was like literally I had disappointment for 12 hours and

Michael Jamin (12:14):

But still that is crippling that disappointment.

Danny Zuker (12:16):

It was crippling. I've never forgotten

Michael Jamin (12:18):

The Yeah. I feel it just the way you said

Danny Zuker (12:21):

It, it was really cruel. I mean, it was like I described, I mean, to like the people interested on the podcast who are aspiring and whatnot. I mean, it is, and you can attest to this, and everybody I know can attest to, is he getting punched in the face contest? I mean, and there's no shame in stopping. It's just how many times he can get punched in the face. Because you will continually, I mean, I've recently been punched, you know, I did a pilot and it's like all the way going and boom, punched in the face and it's like, it never stops hurting. And at some point we just decide not to get up. I'm just not there yet, but, you know. Right. But but

Michael Jamin (12:53):

People don't, yeah. I think that's important to know. Like even us at our level, is none of it's a cake walk. Everything's, you know, a lot of rejection.

Danny Zuker (13:03):

It, it's true. And I'll never forget this cuz so there's a writer under studio Hall show. He's about like eight or nine years older than I was. And, and like we would pretty young staff and, but, and we were going like, all the way to Vegas, why did you ever come to Vegas with us? And he's like, you know, and he pulled me aside, he took me for a lunch. He goes, he said, you, you're good. You don't wanna stay here in late night the whole, your whole career. You should, like, I'm taking the time. A friend of mine is doing a pilot. I'm helping him with it, and I'm pu you know, and I think you should be thinking about like starting to speck out half hour. And I thought, okay, you know, he's very avan Well, that pilot he was working on was, and his friend was Larry David, who was working on the Seinfeld pilot. He was Larry Charles. Right. and, and, and, and, you know, so he, you know, it was a real inspirational thing that moved me forward. And years later when I'm first getting like my first like, you know, I'm a story editor on like evening shade or one of those things. And I remember running, talking to him and I said, it must be nice to not worry about the next thing. And he is like, oh, I worry every single day. And

Michael Jamin (14:01):

This is who, who? Larry Charles said this

Danny Zuker (14:02):

Larry. Charles, yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And I thought, like, I thought, is he just saying that to make me feel good? But then, you know, as I saw it, I saw like the people from friends leaving the hottest show on friends, like not, you know, scr you, it, it doesn't carry over. It's like you, you, you get in the door more. Right. But you're still subject to the same humiliations most of the time.

Michael Jamin (14:24):

Why did they tell you, why did he tell you you don't want to be in late night for the rest of your career?

Danny Zuker (14:29):

He thought that I want, he said, if you, he, he more said it this way. He said, do you want to be in late night? Do you have aspirations to do more? Because it can be a golden, you can, it can be like a golden handcuffs because what can happen is it becomes comfortable and you won't do anything else if you wanna do something else. And he thought, and he, and he said he thought I was good enough to, he thought I had the ability to go do something else. I, and and that was all it was. It wasn't like he was belittling it mm-hmm. , he just knew I had aspirations beyond it. And he said, while you are working on something good is a great time to be working on the next thing. Right. And I, I, I, I took, I I, I took him seriously. I

Michael Jamin (15:06):

Mean, but you had to learn a whole different thing. You had to learn how to write stories. That's a

Danny Zuker (15:09):

Whole different thing. You don't, and but didn't you find this for you? So you started as a joke writer. You don't know if you can do it consistently until you do it. And then you find out, oh, I can. Right. It's the same thing with half hour. It's like, I don't know if I can do this consistently until you find out you can.

Michael Jamin (15:22):

But I remember the first couple specs I wrote the first were terrible. Then I wrote a couple that were decent. And then after wrote that first decent one that got me an agent. I remember the, I got soundbite agent and then I remember thinking, I, I don't know if I can do this again. I think that's it. I think I got lucky.

Danny Zuker (15:37):

Oh dude, I'm utter, even to this day, I have to tell you, like I've, I, I'm utterly convinced that every job I have is the last job I'll ever have for my whole career. And that this is the script where I'll be found out.

Michael Jamin (15:53):

. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Zuker (15:55):

Where the, where the big, where the, you know, it's it's imposter syndrome I think. But it, I don't know. I, I've never met somebody who turned into script and was so freaking proud of it to me or something like that. It's like, oh, this one's gonna kill where that was any good . You know? Right. Like, that kind of confidence doesn't means you haven't like, questioned

Michael Jamin (16:11):

It. And what were those early days like for you on those early shows like Roseanne and like, what was that like?

Danny Zuker (16:17):

I loved it. I mean, cuz I, I did discover I was good at it and they were like, it was competitive, which I liked mm-hmm. . And it was like, you know, I held my own. I was like, you know, I did a really good, I felt like I did a really good job on Evening Shane. And they recommended me to Right. Roseanne. And I was a good hire there. And I'm, you know, the Roseanne was one of these situations where like 30 something writers, cuz she would hire all these people. But there was one like, main room and, and, and, or like, like two, you know, of the main writers. And it was very egalitarian, you know, it wasn't just like, okay, you're co-executive producer, you're gonna be in that main room. Or the, it was egalitarian. And, you know, I had worked, you know, as a second job. I worked myself into the main room. Now keep in mind that also meant working on weekends, but it was still,

Michael Jamin (17:00):

What do you mean as a second job? What do you mean?

Danny Zuker (17:03):

Well, no, it wasn't a second job. It was like I said that you would, I, it meant that if I got into the main room, Uhhuh , I would, you know, I would work longer for the same about someone here. Oh, oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah.

Michael Jamin (17:16):

Yeah. Right. And and they were, yeah. Cause the hours were really tough on Roseanne. I remember

Danny Zuker (17:20):

They were hard. No.

Michael Jamin (17:21):

Yeah. I remember getting, it's funny, I remember getting interviewed to be in the night pa on Roseanne. I was like, the night pa Yeah. You start around midnight. I'm like, oh, start at midnight. . That doesn't sound like a good job.

Danny Zuker (17:35):

Yeah. I remember, I think at one 30 in the morning, Rob hen at one point saying, guys, if we just let's focus, we can get out here early

Michael Jamin (17:42):

. But he wasn't. So what time, what were your hours? Like what time did you usually work until ?

Danny Zuker (17:50):

It depended, but like, you know, cause she would blow up the script several times and you had to deliver it. Yeah. And you know, sometimes we'd have to start from scratch. And so, you know, we saw more than, you know, I saw several sunrises. We called it working from Howard to Howard. Like, you'd come in listening to Howard's Stern and you go home listening to Howard's.

Michael Jamin (18:04):

Oh my God. And that's, and that's rough. I mean, I've been at a couple

Danny Zuker (18:08):

Young though. It, it helped to be young.

Michael Jamin (18:10):

Right. I know. Imagine doing that now. You'd be, I don't know guys, it's getting, it's, it's right five-ish. It's getting dark . I go, now

Danny Zuker (18:18):

I wanna eat my dinner at four 30 now. So it's like different

Michael Jamin (18:21):

. So then all your other jobs afterwards. Just interesting to follow. How were they just mostly connections or your agents submitting you? How have

Danny Zuker (18:29):

Almost all were con like, so what happened was, so yeah, so Evening Shade led to a connection because Victor Fresco was friends with Rob Yuen. Mm-Hmm. and then Tim Doyle who was coming in also. And, and, and so I got there from there. When I went to Grace Under Fire, it was Kevin Abbott. It was like a, a a splinter group. Us went on to that. From there Kevin wound up getting like a brillstein deal off of that. And then they were like, he, they were asking who else is good over there? And he recommended me. So then I got a Brillstein deal and did my first pilot. And when that didn't go, I was like on, I was somewhere like on vacation, you know, my wife. And, and I got a call from my agent that about like, Hey, they're looking to bring somebody on the show, just shoot me. And you know, you know, I read the script, which I liked. I, you know, I hadn't seen the first pilot and I was wrapping up and so I, I don't how many You were there from the beginning

Michael Jamin (19:23):

Right? From the pilot. Yeah.

Danny Zuker (19:24):

Yeah. So what was how many did you do that first season? Because I came in in, in at the le Yeah. So I came in on episode six of that

Michael Jamin (19:32):

First season. You were there, you were there for the first episode. Final episode of Season of Season One. I don't remember

Danny Zuker (19:37):

That. Yes, I was, yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Cause we were, yeah. Cause I, yeah. And so yeah. So it was yeah. So that, and that's how that led. And then from there, you know, that led to a lot of different things. And, and you know, you know, it is, you start to develop a name, so then you at least Right, you can at least get in the door, you know, a little bit. So,

Michael Jamin (19:56):

And then, but even now, okay, so how does it work for you now? What is it? I mean, even like, I know you just, you just had a pilot what it felt like. What was that process like?

Danny Zuker (20:05):

Well, it's, it's, you know, it's, hopefully it's gonna be alive again. But we, we gotten into some, some, a little good news, but, you know, I was talking about a couple pilots, but like, I, you know, I got, I having the same manager as I'm at Brillstein again as a management company. And over Covid, they were like, Hey, you know, you wanna sit down with Kevin Neon as this idea?

Michael Jamin (20:25):

Oh, right.

Danny Zuker (20:26):

Kevin and I wound up writing something that I really love. And here

Michael Jamin (20:29):

We go. Let's give him, give him a shout out.

Danny Zuker (20:32):

Oh, you got

Michael Jamin (20:33):

It. Yeah, because Kevin was a Kevin, Kevin's so sweet. He was the voice on, he was actually the voice on this animated show. He did. He's over there and

Danny Zuker (20:41):

Oh really? Which one?

Michael Jamin (20:43):

Glen Martin dds. So I work with Kevin. Oh,

Danny Zuker (20:45):

That's right. I

Michael Jamin (20:46):

Remember that. And he's, so, he's the sweetest guy. And so he's

Danny Zuker (20:51):

Been, he's been a pleasure to be in my life. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it was a real blessing.

Michael Jamin (20:56):

Well, I was just gonna say, so when he put his book out, I was like, yeah, I gotta give, I gotta help promote his book. Cuz he's just the sweetest guy, you

Danny Zuker (21:02):

Know? Yeah, he is, he's the greatest. And, but, you know, there's a perfect example. So it's Kevin Neen who has always acclaim. I don't have no acclaim. And, and like we write a pilot That's great. And we still get fucked around with, you know, it's like, sort of what I was saying, you know, it's like there's no, it never ends

Michael Jamin (21:18):

. Yeah, no, it doesn't end. And so, yeah. So that, so just so people understand those work, so the, you've sold it to, well, your, your studio paid, you

Danny Zuker (21:27):

Don't just We the studio. Yeah. And it was like, developed for tbs. Okay. And and then the whole TBS structure went out the window mm-hmm. like in, in the midst of doing it. And, and we just got screwed. Now it came back to us and knock wood, we have something. But, you know, and then, you know, I'm just developing other things right now.

Michael Jamin (21:46):

Yeah. So you'll try to shop that. Right. And so,

Danny Zuker (21:48):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean this is the, this is the first year though when I, because I've been working on this animated show, housebroken mm-hmm. , it's their second season. It's on Fox. My first animated show I've ever

Michael Jamin (21:57):

Oh, I know that. Oh, wait, wait, I know that one.

Danny Zuker (22:00):

It's with, yeah, it's with Gabby Al Gabby and Jen Friton did, and Ku it's like bunch of pets and group therapy. Right. Which is really a funny idea. Right. And it was super fun to do when it ended, like, in, in, I don't know, September, I mean, we're still doing post-production, but when it ended in September, I had a couple offers to staff or thinking like this. And I just, I said I, unless it was something I really wanted to do, this was the first time I decided not to do that. Not to run really in my whole career because I, I felt like I don't want to do that right now. I'm tired of racing and I wanted to, and I got to travel and I wanted to do certain things and work on what I wanted to work on. Right. It just sort of have faith in the process. Cause cause you know how it is, you miss a lot of life if you don't do that. So

Michael Jamin (22:45):

Yeah, well it's, there's that, yeah. It's like that trade off. Do you go on staff or, or try to develop on your own and you're just

Danny Zuker (22:51):

Yeah. And I'll go, but I also, it's just a trade off of like, if I don't go on staff now and I wanna go on staff later, I'll find something. You know, it's like, I'm not gonna just not do it in there, you know? Right. So,

Michael Jamin (23:03):

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

(23:27):

Right. So now you're just coming up with ideas or teaming up with other people.

Danny Zuker (23:31):

Yeah, I'm, I'm actually supervising a couple pilots that I like and I'm writing one, you know, developing one on my own. And then, and, and, you know, it's been super fun and, you know, I'll start submitting again when, you know, shows get picked up. But it was fun. I got to go around the world

Michael Jamin (23:45):

Interest Oh, go around the world for for what? Oh, oh, because you're on yourself. You, you

Danny Zuker (23:49):

Just Yeah, my, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Jamin (23:51):

Right. Interesting. And then, and so what was go, so your last, I guess your last big credit was Modern Family. So what was that a called, what was that like?

Danny Zuker (24:00):

Wow, I mean, what a credit. Oh, here's the thing. So I'm 44 when that show gets, you know, picked up and, you know mm-hmm. , especially like in comedy. Right. You know, you think like, I went prior, so it's kind of funny. So prior to modern Family, you know, a year before that happened, a full year, you know, we had a writer's strike. And right before that, Steve Leviton, who we know from Just Shoot me and, and Chris Le Lloyd were doing a show with Kelsey Grammar and Patricia Heaton called back to Back to You. Back to You. Yeah. Yeah. And and, and I didn't get hired for it, and I was like, really? I've done everything for, and it would've meant like I could've logged my deal and, and then the writer strike happened. It was the first time I went a year, like basically almost a year without working on anything.

(24:49):

Right. And so I started to spec out a couple, I specked out a pilot that was a little bit more dramatic and wound up getting hired on a drama that Noah Hawley was doing in New York called The Unusuals. And it was like, and it was really fun to do a drama and easier by a mile. Right. And so BEC but and it was like, I was the funny guy in this, like, people, other writers would come to me if they need because it had, shouldn't have had a rye aspect to it and this cop drama. And so I could punch up and I was able to write a drama a script. And it was great. And that show didn't get picked up. But then I had a couple offers on other dramas when Steve called me and said, Hey, Chris and I have done this pilot.

(25:27):

I think you should come in and take a look at it. You might be interested in it. Now in my head I'm thinking, I can't wait to watch this pilot and say, no, I don't wanna do it. Right. , it's like hired other stuff. But I got five minutes into the Modern Family Pilot. And honestly, to me, it's the best comedy pilot I'd ever seen. Yeah. Like, for just like, it, it felt so fully formed already. Yeah. Like, but that cast, and it just like, everything clicked in a way that was magical. And I was like, I gotta get hired on this show. And so people asking, you know, it was gonna be a hit or did you know this? We had, there was a lot of pressure that first season to do something as good as the pilot and to be in that world. And, but we could feel it. We, you could, you know, you could feel something building like you could feel, yeah, this is something special. And and yeah, it was an amazing ride and I'm sort of glad to have that happen to me in my forties. It was particularly after a year of sort of, oh, slightly slimmer picking. So I really appreciated it and I knew it won't, I, I knew this doesn't go on forever. Like I know that that's a very unusual Yeah. And rarefied thing to happen.

Michael Jamin (26:35):

It's kind of like the last big, big hit, you

Danny Zuker (26:38):

Know? It feels like it, I mean, it, it, it's especially a broadcast hit. It's like Yeah. It just like, like it, it went from the beginnings of like, screaming is a possibility to like, no one watches network television at the time it's on anymore.

Michael Jamin (26:53):

Right. What's interesting about, I, I always love like writing in that show is like you've literally watched those children grow up to be adults, you know, on the

Danny Zuker (27:03):

Air same age. So Luke, the kid who played Luke and the kid who played Manny and Alex for that matter, Uhhuh were all the same age as my twin girls. And my son was younger. So I, I, I used to joke that I, I got to watch the kids who make me money grow up with the kids who cost my money

Michael Jamin (27:19):

, but, and how odd is it to write new stories? Like, it just seems like it's, you know, it's almost odd that because they're older now and you get, you're writing stories for them being older, you know?

Danny Zuker (27:29):

Yeah. But it's like you, that is actually, oh, for me, I did not mind that because I felt like in those first couple seasons it was very, you know, we in all purged our lives for like stories. Right. And so I was just waiting for my kids to grow up and do something more interesting.

Michael Jamin (27:48):

Right,

Danny Zuker (27:48):

Right. You know, you know, and I think, and, and I think a lot of us were, and so I didn't mind that you were moving into those, those stories. I mean, it gets hard though. I mean, you know, we joked like, you know, everybody's like, oh, you know, it wasn't as good in season eight or whatever. It's like, well, let me put it this way. It's like the most interesting family, you know, most like the Obama's, let's say when they're at a dinner party, they have at most 15 to 20 stories they tell me. Yeah, yeah. That's it. Tho those are their go and they're the most interesting family, you know, like, we did 250 episodes, or each family had like, it's hard, you know, you, you, it's, it's, it's different. And we're not like animated, so they have to be somewhat ground. It's all you can do like meta episodes, like you can do like on The Simpsons or things like that. Although I wish we could have , but

Michael Jamin (28:34):

But I, and I always, cause I always talk about like how writer's mind their own life for stories. But you have a famous, you famously took a story from your life, I think, right? And you said in one of the, at least one of the episodes was the, it was the fire. It was the fire. I'm thinking of the firemen.

Danny Zuker (28:47):

Yeah. I didn't write it, but I, I told it in the room. I had had a okay. So yeah, it was like the, the, I live in Manhattan Beach and the the e EMT workers there are like famously good looking dudes. Like I Right. Some, I, it makes me question where I am on the sexuality spectrum.

Michael Jamin (29:06):

.

Danny Zuker (29:07):

Anyway, I wound up having an attack, which I thought was a kidney stone. It turned out to be gallbladder. It was like, but at two in the morning and I wake up and I feel like I'm being stabbed to death. Right. And my, my wife Annette. Annette, you gotta call nine one one. You gotta call 9 1 1. It's like, she was like, okay, it's gonna be fine. She calls 9 1 1 and then I'm on the floor and I don't see her, when I hear the, the firemen like knocking on the door like, Annette, Annette, where are you? And then she comes out of her closet and she's dolled up like she, cause it was the middle of the night she put on, she's looking you up for the fire bitch. And we just did that word for there.

Michael Jamin (29:40):

Right. So you go in to, and you tell the story the next day in the writer's room, and then it goes right in the script.

Danny Zuker (29:45):

It's amazing. And it's amazing cause you start to lose any shame. So like, one of the things like I'd worked, I had known Brad Walsh who was part partnered with Corgan and Walsh. Right. I'd known him for many, many years before this. Worked on a show with him, a couple shows with him and never, and, but we get into that first season of Modern Family and we're like looking for stories. And he is like, and I see him struggling and he is like, okay, fine. My sister and I were part of an ice dancing team. . Like, it's something he wouldn't tell us ever except we needed it.

Michael Jamin (30:16):

He, you needed stories, right? Oh, you give, yeah.

Danny Zuker (30:19):

Yeah.

Michael Jamin (30:19):

You'll give your mother. I mean, people don't realize, like you're, it's late at night, you're trying to come up a story and like you do, you'll swab someone's arm for a story. You know, like a good story is so hard to get.

Danny Zuker (30:31):

Now I've only like, like there's a time on like, it was actually just shoot me, I think it was. But like, we're looking for a story on some kind. And it was the only time I'm tell it here, but it was like that my wife at the time, she, she actually said I would rather you didn't do this cuz they, they want, they'll watch her. But it was, it was, it was this very simple story. It was like, like I used to fly my in-laws out here before they moved out here to come see the grandkids. I was like, you know, of course you're gonna come over there and say I'd fly and I do this back and forth. Happy to do it. I'm a generous guy. It likes been good. But then I found out like they'd get the ticket and then at the airport would pay for the upgrade to first class . And it like, sort of like, wait a minute, . And it shouldn't have bothered me, but it did

Michael Jamin (31:13):

Wait. But, but they were paying it out, the upgrade outta of pocket. They were paying for the upgrade.

Danny Zuker (31:18):

They were paying for the upgrade. But it was like, I guess you pay for the upgrade. You like what? Like,

Michael Jamin (31:23):

Oh, if they can pay for that, when they could pay for the ticket, you're saying? Yes, I got,

Danny Zuker (31:25):

Well not even, but but of course that's me. That was not like, and even as when I was pitching the story, I said, this is gonna be my problem not there

Michael Jamin (31:33):

.

Danny Zuker (31:34):

But I said, so I, so I, I put the ki on, I, I stopped, but that's about the only time I have I all embarrassed people in our lives, you know?

Michael Jamin (31:43):

And, but, and so yeah, I mean, so, but, but basically there, so there are other stories in Modern Family you took from your, from your life as well, basically?

Danny Zuker (31:49):

Oh, tons. All of us did. Yeah. We, we, we, we, we had one like five twin daughters and at one point, like, so we had to go to a we had to go to a parent teacher conference when they were like in, I don't know, second grade. And my daughter, it's Lily and Charlie, my daughter Charlie, I mean Charlie, my daughter Charlie, you know, we're sitting there and it's and and then I say, Hey, so your dad and I, you know, tonight your dad and I are gonna need to split up. And and it's like, so do you, is there, do you have a preference? And it's like, and she just thought about it for a second. She goes, well I love dad, but I think you'll take better care of me. And she thought like we were, and she was so calm about us splitting up. Like she just like, yeah, I get like obviously that's . So she was like, it was just such a weird, and so we had Luke basically do that with Claire and and Phil.

Michael Jamin (32:47):

So yeah. Wow. That's so, yeah. You just got, it's like you're just gonna be conscious for your life. But go, but go ahead. What

Danny Zuker (32:52):

You were gonna say? No, we had a lot. I mean, Steve's kids walked in on him having sex in the pilot when Luke, they do the thing, we're gonna shoot you Luke. Right. That is the deal. If you shoot your sister, he has actual footage of him doing that to his son. .

Michael Jamin (33:07):

Yeah. That I remember thinking that this, I remember watching the pilot thinking this had to be from his life. And it doesn't sound right. . He shouldn't have done that.

Danny Zuker (33:15):

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Michael Jamin (33:17):

Now, when you go about creating a pilot, other than the Kevin Neon thing, which is, you know, a little different cuz he has this like how do you go about, how do you start thinking about ideas?

Danny Zuker (33:26):

It's, it's a variety of ways. Like there's some that are just like, oh, this is an idea that's been sort of itching that, that I've been itching to do. I mean, and in the day, you know, I would think like, you know, but there's just an idea that I'll get in your head. The other way is somebody comes to you with an idea or a piece of casting. I have one right now that was kind of a, I'm not gonna talk about it here, but it was like, right. But it's, it's cause I'm, I'm, I'm down the road. But it, it was so wild idea that came to me with like, some good casting associated, but it was just one line and it's broad and silly. And I was like, how am I gonna make that work? Right. And they actually went away and on a trip and, and somebody just clicked how I would do it. And so I'm, you know, I've written up treatment and so hopefully that thing goes, but it's, sometimes it's an actor. Sometimes you read an article.

Michael Jamin (34:13):

Do you, are you, do you develop sometimes with actors? Cuz we never, we develop for comedians but never actors really.

Danny Zuker (34:19):

It depends. I have developed for an actor why They're usually a comic actor though. Yeah. You know? But yeah, that's, that's about it. Yeah. I have, I mean, I know where do you guys get your, what do you do with your ideas? I mean, and don't they mostly come from your heads? Are you talking about it or it's such a hard target to chase?

Michael Jamin (34:37):

Is this a hard part of it that we struggle with? Cuz you always hear this as like, why are you the only ones who can tell this story? And you're like, well I'm, we're not. You know, I mean, and, and the other thing is like, well I'm a writer, I can kind of make up stuff. Like, so they, but they always want to hear like, why is so you have to always, it always has to be personal, which is a little hard. It's like you run out of the personal things. And so yeah.

Danny Zuker (35:02):

It sound like an obvious, this is gonna sound like a question, and maybe this just speaks to me not being a good guy, but I, I know this, but don't you lie

Michael Jamin (35:10):

. But you, you, you exaggerate, you, you basically say, you know, you try to extrapolate, well this is, I this didn't happen to you, but something similar happened to me, you know,

Danny Zuker (35:20):

But I'll be like, okay, so this is based on a guy I went to school with.

Michael Jamin (35:23):

Right. But is that good enough? Because then they'll, but then they'll say, okay, but then go get the guy who you went to school with. Hey, get him in here. It's his story.

Danny Zuker (35:32):

. No, no. I mean, I, I no, what I will say, this is my real, real, you know, I'll, I don't know. I can, first of all, I do think when you're writing a show, no matter what you're putting yourself right in all of those characters, I think it's a silly request. I do try, even if it was like something science fiction or it was something like broad and big, I will always try to craft an origin story that is usually mostly true. But just like, you know, I had this experience, like how do I explain like I'm doing something with somebody right now, an animated show that I'm supervising that has a lot to do with mental health stuff. Right. And this girl cracked it. And it was like, so when I'm coming in I say like, I've tried to do mental health issues for a long time. Never found the key. I think she did. This is like, and, and so that's my, that's my part of the sales pitch in this. And

Michael Jamin (36:20):

It's so interesting cuz we don't even supervise. It's not, it's not that I'm opposed to it, but there's not a lot of money to supervise something. And you wind up doing a lot of the work. So,

Danny Zuker (36:33):

Well, I'm very careful with what I pick in the supervision. Mm-Hmm. . And I'm also very careful what my, you know, rate will be. So I, for me it was like, oh, okay. I, but, but, but it's like, no, but it's like I'll take, I, I, you know, somewhere along the way it's gonna be a gamble, but I wanna be with somebody who I know is gonna, and I'm very explicit about that. I always say like, if I'm going to wind up co-writing this, we are going to be back here to renegotiate because my deal is very specifically not for scripts. And Oh

Michael Jamin (37:00):

Really? Okay.

Danny Zuker (37:01):

Yeah. And I'm, and I'm pretty clear with that, with my management and stuff like that. Because if I'm gonna do that, then I'm gonna take a piece of it. I normally, I don't, I I don't want to, I wanna help them do it and then I'll run it if it goes right. But I, but I'm just, when I was younger, I had a couple people, I had one person in in particular who's sort of supervising me, who took over something and I feel like Crash landed it before I was ready. And, and I'm so careful not to do that. I'm just there. So I, I really do wanna make it that person show.

Michael Jamin (37:33):

But the problem is cuz and I, I haven't, we haven't done this, I haven't experienced, but my fear is you'll turn it in the studio will not be happy with it, with their work, with their draft. And then you will have to do all that work. You will have to do all that regretting.

Danny Zuker (37:51):

Well, I'll have to do some work. Uhhuh . But I'm, I'm picking people I think who's have a pretty good sense of, right. I, I'm betting on certain people. I'm not betting on like somebody who is just like a comic. I'm betting on somebody who is at least writing or has some work

Michael Jamin (38:09):

To. And so those people, they don't come to you out of the, I should be clear, they probably don't come to you out of the, off the street. They come to you through channels, through agents, managers, stuff like that. Yeah.

Danny Zuker (38:17):

Or through, or through like pods. They, somebody we're developing this or we, we love this pitch. And that's sort of what happened with this, this animated one

Michael Jamin (38:24):

Doing so. Right, right. Interesting. Now have you done a lot of animation? That's something I I didn't know you got the all that

Danny Zuker (38:30):

Just this housebroken show. That's the first night I've ever done.

Michael Jamin (38:34):

It's been very all on Zoom.

Danny Zuker (38:36):

All on Zoom practically. Yeah. Yeah. All on Zoom. But it was a real blast. Now I kind, I didn't mind it.

Michael Jamin (38:43):

Right. Well you had to be in your house, get to relax too.

Danny Zuker (38:46):

It was kind of fu It was. Yeah. I mean, and also just having something like, you know, it was, again, we went into the pandemic, nothing was going on during that. I was just sort of sitting home riding pilots and, and doing stuff. And I was like, oh God, am I done again? Am I done? Then I got a call from mm-hmm. , you know, Gabby and Jen and that production company that if I was interested, I could come there. And it's like, I loved every, you know, I love those guys and it's all these a bunch of really great people over there. It's like basically the whole cast of Veep is isn't that thing

Michael Jamin (39:14):

? Oh yeah, I know. And

Danny Zuker (39:15):

It's a, and and, and it was just like, it's just been a blast, so. Right.

Michael Jamin (39:20):

Wow. And so, and I also know, I, I noticed you've been, you've been performing a lot too.

Danny Zuker (39:25):

Yeah, I have. I started doing I started doing standup a little bit. I'm, I took a little break, but I've been going, yeah, I took like a 30 something years break from standup. But it's been fun. Cause like I have stuff to talk about and I don't care what happens. Cause I already have a career. Like there's no stakes in it at all.

Michael Jamin (39:41):

And you go, I mean, and so you go up, how often do you up?

Danny Zuker (39:44):

Well, when I was doing it more, I was going up a couple times a week and little clubs, little club shows. I was actually I shortly before the Pandemic was going through a divorce and but I was dating somebody who was a comic and so, and she did a lot of club shows and would put me on. And then we just recently broke up, so now I need another Ed doing club shows. What I wound going though, I wound up going to Edinburgh. A friend of mine who's a comic was doing a show at Edinburgh at French Fest. And I opened for him, like, for four shows. And it was really a blast.

Michael Jamin (40:12):

It's so interesting. We're talking about doing that. What, what was your experience there? I I would definitely talk

Danny Zuker (40:17):

About that. Loved it. Yeah. We have to talk. I'm actually thinking about putting something up there myself.

Michael Jamin (40:22):

Oh. And they gotta talk now. We definitely

Danny Zuker (40:23):

Have to talk. Yeah. Yeah. We'll talk afterwards.

Michael Jamin (40:26):

Wow. Now I wanna, I wanna stop this conversation talk, but, and so, but do you wanna do more? It's so interesting. Like, do you wanna do more performing? Because

Danny Zuker (40:36):

I always like, I love to perform. I don't need to do it as a career. What I find is I just like the process of it. Right. I like the way it makes, like, I had this epiphany when I started getting up on stage, like right before the pandemic, a friend of mine was doing the DC improv and at this point I had like, and was gonna needed a, like a, a feature. And so I was like, she's like, do you have 15, 20 minutes? And at the time, I had five. And she's like, and I had a week to go. It's like, well, I'll figure it out. So I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, you know, just on all the way over, I get it. And I got there and I'd written some stuff and like, there was a joke I had in the act that I thought was, it's gold.

(41:16):

Like I, I just know the stroke is gonna work as an open. Yeah. And the first night it didn't really work that well. And I, I came back, my first night was a little rocky, but my fir there were two shows a night, two, I mean, so the first show first night was a little rocky, not terrible. It was not like I bombed it, not terrible. So, and but from second show, I started to figure stuff out and it got, got good, except that joke didn't work again. And I was like, well, I don't know, keep going. It'll work tomorrow. Third try still doesn't work. And with that and so forth, Joe, I abandoned it. But what it, what was interesting about it for me was this, I'll write a joke for a script and a table read and it won't go well. And I will be convinced. I don't, I didn't go out to table read, but it's a good joke, right. And it'll work and I'll fight for it. And sometimes it'll get on. And now I'm thinking it should be a very obvious realization to anybody who's not a complete narcissist. But to me it's like maybe, I don't know,

Michael Jamin (42:11):

. But the thing is, Danny, if I was, if I had to, but if I had to bet, if I had to say who could, what comedy writer do I know could go and put together a standup act in an evening li or you know, in a couple of hours who could write a fricking five or 10 minutes in a couple of hours and kill it would be you. Because it's just, it's just easy. If, you know, if one thing bomb, whatever you can, you'll pitch on it. You get the one that works.

Danny Zuker (42:36):

I, I, I feel like that's the case for me. And I also think like, you know, you know this, there's like the two kinds of comedy writers. There's the extroverted ones, and then there's the ones who are just like quiet, but like, you know, good on the page and like, you know, really, and, and you know, will pitch. They're assassins when they pitch, but they're not, like, they don't have that perfor, they're not frustrated performers. Right. And and I just, I just really enjoy it. I mean like, and again, I enjoy it wherever it is. Like I enjoy it in a club with 10 people or in a theater with like 200. It's like, for me it's like been, it's been really kind of, it's just about the process. Like I am no goal to, like, I, I'm not looking to get a Netflix hour. Like I don't, none, none of that appeal. None of that happens. I just like doing it. I find that the process of it works a different part of my brain and like my, you know, I, you know, like I said, like in like in the course of a couple years, my marriage ended, my job of 11 years ended and then the world ended and it was like, yeah. So I was like, grasp, you know, so it was like, it was a lifeline.

Michael Jamin (43:37):

Were you, did that, I mean, did that panic you at all? Did all that, that's a lot to hit at one time

Danny Zuker (43:43):

By the ti? Well, no, because by the time the world ended, my, my marriage like was, that was going through nine months and I'd survived the worst of it in Annette and Ireland we're super close. We're like, we're best friends. It's like the best. And then the show ended did, which was a little bit trauma, you know, traumatic and it was going on. But having survived the uncertainty of a show ending and a marriage ending, by the time, like everything shut down, I felt like, I was like, oh, I've been living in chaos for a while. Come on in, I'll show you. You know, it's like, lemme show you around,

Michael Jamin (44:11):

Let me show you. And that was, and that's kind of what your act is now? I mean, or no,

Danny Zuker (44:15):

No, no. My, my most of my act. I mean, it depends. I mean, I do a lot of my act about like oh my God, how far have I fallen? Or I talk about, I talk, I talk a lot about, like, I talk about like when a joke doesn't work or something like that. It's like, oh, they, you know, thing doesn't work. The, the Academy of Television Motion pictures and scientists really liked it though. And like, I'll talk about like my, I, I'll, I'll, I'll be falsely humble about that. Right. And also it's, it's been interesting to, to discover, you know, when I go out to a lot of these club shows, I am considerably older than a lot of the comics who are there. But like in my head, it doesn't feel that way to me. But I can tell that that's how I perceive. And that's also been interesting to talk about just being older.

Michael Jamin (44:58):

Do you think, cuz so many of these comments wanna get into actually sitcom writing, and do you think they look at you and like you're the guy? Oh, there's,

Danny Zuker (45:06):

There are some who look to me who there you can, but you know, this can't you tell when someone's talking to you and wants an opportunity? Or is just like being cool? I I, I, I can usually tell.

Michael Jamin (45:18):

Well, but no, but I wonder if, I wonder if, not that they're like sucking up to you, but if they're just in awe of you because of everything you've written. You know,

Danny Zuker (45:25):

I think they're, I think there are some people, yeah. I mean, I'm sure that they would be impressed with that aspect of it. Uhhuh . I, I, I'm pretty good at putting people at ease though. Cause that makes me uncomfortable. If people start doing that. I mean, I know it's all coming from a good place. I just, right. I, I don't, I don't like it's too much pressure to be vaunted. It's like I will like, cause all I can think of when someone's looking up to me, it's like, I'm gonna so let you down. It's like you have no idea how disappointed you be, really

Michael Jamin (45:53):

See it. It's interesting cuz that whole reinventing, okay, so even in the comedy room, even, I remember, like you were, there were times you'd be on stage in the con there were 10 of us in the writer's room and you're on stage. And so it seems like you are a perfor. You really are a performer, but this is you, this is like a big deal. Reinventing yourself, especially at this age. It's kind of, it's very intimidating, I think, or no for not for you.

Danny Zuker (46:16):

No, no. I love it. It's, it's, I I am so much more afraid of stagnation and things like that. Uhhuh . And it's, you know, and it, it's, it's interesting because, you know, especially as you get older and in comedy writing, you know, my full career, they were like, you hear like a certain subset of writers as they got into forties talking about ageism, which I'm not saying doesn't exist. Of course it exists. Mm-Hmm. . But what's interesting is some of the voices that were complaining and the loudest about ageism I would see on the show. And then we'd be pitching some, they'd be pitching something and then somebody like younger might say, yeah, that feels like a little famil, you know, familiar. It'd say, Hey, it worked on this, you know, and then they would disregard. It's like, this is what worked on, you know, growing pains.

(46:57):

It's gonna work here. Right. And I, I really clocked that. And so for me, part of doing standup and hearing, like I say very, like, I'm interested in comedy as an exploration date. And I think writers don't understand that. It's like a lot of people, comedy people don't understand it. It's like, yes, this was really funny and you could be upset that you can't say this word or this word anymore, but you rolled your eyes at the generation that came before you too. Right. Like, remember that. And you have to like, it is constantly changing. You must, the big experiences I've had is like, I can't wait to show my kids when they would get older when starting to get older. This is classic comedy. And to watch when you watch it again for the, there's certain things that hold up, but a lot of it doesn't hold up that well.

Michael Jamin (47:41):

Yeah. Right. If someone said like, okay, they wanna put you on tour and you tore the whatever, like a, like a, like a road comic, would you do it?

Danny Zuker (47:50):

I mean, if I, I might, I mean now in the, it's different. I, if you asked me this before, the age of Zoom, Uhhuh , I'd probably say no. Now if I, if I got to that point where, you know, I would wanna be good enough, like I have many opportunities to cut the line given to like, you know, my status. I know people who, like, if I wanted to, I could suck up to somebody in a much bigger club and say, Hey, gimme a couple spots here in a way that younger comics wouldn't. Right. But I, I, I desperately don't want to do that because I wanna be good enough to get that spot, you know, I'll work it out there and when I get there, you know, so, yeah. I don't know. I have a weird ethos about the whole thing. It's probably just the way of me procrastinating doing more, but

Michael Jamin (48:34):

, that's interest. It's so interesting. I, anyway, I I know you, we actually, you do have a, you have a little of a time limit, but I wanna, and I wanna talk more off camera, but I want to, is there, yeah. Is there, is there anything I can pro plug or send people send if they wanna know more about what you're doing?

Danny Zuker (48:51):

Yes. I'm on all social media @DannyZucker, Z U K E R and, and yeah. What else? I got nothing to promote right now. I, I don't know, I don't have any dates till after the new year, so I don't know what those are gonna be. We're able to performing, but but yeah, that's it.

Michael Jamin (49:07):

But follow there to know when your next pilot gets picked up or whatever. , when your next show. Yeah.

Danny Zuker (49:12):

Thank you for saying when,

Michael Jamin (49:13):

When, when. All right everyone, thank you so much, Danny. I can't thank you so much. I'm so happy that you did this. This is oh,

Danny Zuker (49:20):

I'm so fun. Respond to you, man. You've always, you've, and also you've always been one of my favorites, so dude, like I a handful full of people in there that I

Michael Jamin (49:27):

Dude, you're kind. So that's it everyone. Thank you so much. Yeah, continue. What am I gonna say at the end of the podcast? Well, if you wanna get on a free newsletter, go sign it for that. I send it out once a week at michaeljamin.com/watchlist. And and that's it. Continue following you know, on Instagram and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Thank you so much, Danny. Thank you again. All

Danny Zuker (49:48):

Right, you're welcome.

Phil Hudson (49:51):

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep riding.

Rejection is a part of life. Many of us spend every waking moment finding a way to avoid rejection, failure, or negative feelings. As a writer, one of the best assets you can develop is the ability to recognize this process is coming up short and starting again until you finally get there. This week, we take a deep dive into the subject of rejection for writers.

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Michael Jamin:

I hear people all the time, like say, oh, it's too hard to break in, as I always say, break in as a pa because if to get the job you want, you wanna get as physically close to the job, to the person who has the job that you want. Whatever that is. Writer, director, producer, whatever. Physically close you're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, this is Michael

Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters Need to Hear This, the podcast where we have screenwriters talking about things we need to hear. And I'm back with Philadelphia, Phil Hudson. Phil, welcome back.

Phil Hudson:

Thank you. It's good to be back. It's

Michael Jamin:

Been good to be back.

Phil Hudson:

Many weeks of not being here.

Michael Jamin:

Um, yeah, there's been a lot going on. Lot going on.

Phil Hudson:

I had a baby.

Michael Jamin:

Brand new baby too.

Phil Hudson:

I personally, my wife did nothing. I did it all. Now my wonderful wife, um, we brought a baby boy into the world and we're super happy. And so we've been, he sleeps, which is great. And, um, yeah, dealing with a toddler now. The two year old is now immediately a toddler. Mm-hmm.

Michael Jamin:

. Wow. How and how, how's she taken him to this new kid?

Phil Hudson:

Um, it was interesting. She was really hesitant it first that we tried to do cute photos of her holding the baby brother and she just shoved him off immediately. Yeah. She, and wanted nothing. And now she like, will go over and give him kisses and try to give him little nozzles and she, she's, she's, uh, accustomed and loves it. So.

Michael Jamin:

See, that's nice. Yeah. Well, this brings us right to our topic we're gonna talk about today. It's dealing with rejection, which is what your baby son is now dealing with, with his sister rejection. Yep. And this is something all screenwriters have to deal with, not just aspiring writers, Phil, even people, my level and above. If there is above, is there an above? Yes. Which point?

Phil Hudson:

I think, I think it's, it's something everyone is dealing with, like rejection is that like dealing with rejection is a skillset everyone needs to develop. I think for riders, we're just putting ourselves out there so much. We're bearing our souls and what we do. Mm-hmm. that it feels more raw and vulnerable. And I think vulnerable, very important. We've talked about

Michael Jamin:

That before. Yep. And that's the first point is actually the fact that you are getting rejected means you are putting yourself out there. And so good for you, for good. For anybody who's getting rejected, it means they're trying. And then, which is already light years above people who are not, you know, who are not putting themselves out there. So I'm just gonna share, you know, my experiences of rejection and how I deal with it. And um, and maybe that'll help cuz I, I just want you to know everyone listening, like, I deal with a lot of rejection. This is the business , I don't think of personally anymore. So just on a, on a, on a, on a macro scale, you know, when my partners shop a pilot, maybe one at a four they buy, which means, you know, three quarters or just failures. That's just how it goes.

So, you know, I don't, I don't even take a pot. I I I don't take it personally. I was like, oh, okay. They didn't buy it. Well hopefully they'll buy the next one. Um, and, and even backing it up a little bit, you know, I hear people all the time, like say, oh, it's too hard to break in, as I always say, break in as a pa because if, to get the job you want, you wanna get as physically close to the job, to the person who has the job that you want, whatever that is. Writer, director, producer, whatever, physically close. This is just what you're doing, Phil. You are literally physically close to these people and a lot of people in that industry. And, um, but people say, well, it's hard just to become a PA and they start Yeah. You have to know someone.

It's so hard. It's like, hold on. If you're complaining about how hard it is to be a production assistant, that's what PA stands for for, you can forget about being a writer. Cuz writer is way more hard, way harder than being a pa. I mean, so get that outta your head. Don't complain about how hard it's about being a pa. You know, that's, it's a hurdle you can achieve. It's just hard. So, um, and also another thing people don't even realize, and things have changed a little bit in the past, I don't know, probably 15 or years or so, but up until then, you could make a a, a professional screenwriter could make a really good living writing and getting paid to write screenplays that never ever get on screen. They never get made. And maybe things are a little different now, but it's also, it's not unusual to write something and not have it made. I mean Right. We sold two movies. It's a 20th century Fox. Neither got made. And when they weren't, they didn't get made. I wasn't like, you know, I was like, yeah, I didn't expect it to get made. That's how, this is how the industry works. As long as I get that, that check, you know? Um, yeah.

Phil Hudson:

I, I was gonna say that reminds me of like my uncle, um, he's just a small town guy, just super, he's not, he's not simple, but he just, he loves his simple life, if you will. And he was telling me that one time he bought this old truck from a neighbor mm-hmm. and went and bought it. He signed the bill of sale, he got the title, he drove it home and the next day the car wouldn't start. And I was like, oh, did you got sold a lemon where you're just so mad? And he is like, no, I bought it. It is now mine. It is no longer that person's responsibility. It's not my responsibility to figure out what's wrong with it. And it's like, oh, it's just a spark book. $6 car works just fine. Right. That person, you know, it's no longer that person's problem cuz they sold it to me. And this is the inverse of that. Once you sold it to them, you're done. And that's okay. I think you helped me wrap my head around through this podcast and the conversations we have is that, hey, I have exchanged a good or a service. I now have a check. I no longer have any ownership of it. I should worry about what happens to it from there on out, because I got what I got.

Michael Jamin:

Mm-hmm. some people. Yeah. Some people, they, they have asked me questions, well, if you sell a project and it doesn't get made and they don't get made, most don't get made, uh, can you buy it back? I'm like, why would I buy it back? You know how hard it's to sell that I got that money. I already spent that money. I don't wanna buy, I don't wanna buy it back. I will co I will create something else and work on that. Why would buy it back? That sounds crazy. That sounds,

Phil Hudson:

I think it's cause people are so tied to their ideas. Yeah. I think it speaks to maybe it's a little bit of scarcity mindset mm-hmm. where you feel like this is the best thing I have and I need, this is my last shot and nothing I do will be better than this or I don't have any, anything else. Um, and, and that's why they're worried about that. It might be one of the best ideas ever. Mm-hmm. But ultimately that's not your decision to make unless you want to be an indie filmmaker and then you should just go make your film.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So that's exactly right. So how then, like, I guess the next question would would be like, how do I define success if, if, if I get so much rejection, what does success look like? And to me, I think anyone listening to it, I think there's a couple. You just change your criteria. To me, success is getting, getting to do what I do on a daily basis for, you know, as long as I get enough money to pay the bills, success is like, okay, so I don't have to go to another job, , I don't have to drive a, a cab or whatever it is. I get to do what I do in the field that I choose. And sure. Wouldn't it be great if I made 5 million? Yes, of course. But, uh, the fact that I don't have to do this other job. Okay. That means I'm successful.

Mm-hmm. success could also just be mean. And, and for those people who are even not at that level, what does success mean? Success could mean just writing something that moves people. Like why is that, why, what's wrong with that? Like, okay, so I didn't sell mm-hmm. Did it move someone? Isn't that the goal? Isn't that why you're doing this? Is to write something from your heart that moves people? And if that's not your goal, then what are you doing? Why are you want to be a writer? What is it that you want? Do you want the parking spot that says write or on it? What is, you know, what exactly do you want?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. And that's why you want your personal essays and you've, you've talked about that, right? Yeah. Is it's self pure self-expression from you without anyone else having any control over it. Mm-hmm. , it's not, you're not selling it to anybody. You are trying to compile it into your own book. Right. I think we've made that public, but you are ultimately doing it because it's your personal form of self-expression. And it gives you the opportunity to do that to move people, which is what Yeah. The reviews have said that people who've attended your live events, they, they said they, they've been deeply moved by

Michael Jamin:

It. Yeah. And that's that, honestly, that is an honor. The fact, and like one thing I, so I just did two shows in Boston and I'm trying to convince myself that I broke even, I didn't break even. Right. because I have expenses I had to fly and all that stuff. Um, but, um, but the, the, the gratification that I got, it wasn't even from like, like selling out or counting the tickets or hearing the applause. The, the gratification I got was afterwards, like meeting people in a lobby or outside and then getting the, just like hearing like, oh man, thank you. Like thanking me. They paid me to sit in a theater to listen to me. And yet they're still thanking me because I gave them this experience. Like, that is the gratification part. That's what I take the joy in, you know.

Phil Hudson:

That's awesome. Kind of backing up a little bit to this, and it's on the, the same subject you said, you need to redefine what success looks like, right? Yeah. Another thing that I think you've done really well, and it might have been a couple weeks ago, you put a post out on social media saying that, you know, if you are a writer and you have written, you are, you know, if you have written you are, or you are writing, you are a writer. Yeah. And that reminded me of this blog post I read back in 2008 or 2009. It might have been on John august.com. Um, but he talked about, someone talked about like, what is the definition of a professional writer? Is it someone who writes every day? Is it someone who gets paid for something they have written? Is it someone who has something done that you can, you can go watch in a theater? Mm-hmm. . Um, and you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you are writing, you are a writer.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

So that is success in and of itself.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And that is, you know, someone, uh, so I let, there was a post that someone made on social media that I, I saw and, uh, not on my account. And they, they, some guy accused this other guy, uh, you're just a failed actor. You're just a failed artist or whatever. He's failed something. And I was like, man, that's such a dumb thing to say. Like, you're not failed. It's if you're doing, if you're trying, you're, how is that a failure? A failure is not trying, a failure is like just giving up before you even try. Like you're, there's no such shame as a failed artist or an artist. You're, you know, and it's like, and the, and the example that I used is like Van Gogh arguably the greatest artist of all time. You know, he died before, before he was known. He died, you know, in a, I think it was at a Mendel institution.

He didn't like, he was known one when he died. So does that mean he's a failed artist? Van Gogh? Is Van Gogh a failed artist because he didn't make any money when he was alive? Like, that's crazy. You know? And so I think if you just have to have realistic, you just have to define not realistic, but you have to, to redefine how you see, uh, success and his success. If this time spent being creative, like, how, to me that's the time best spent. How is that not like what is there better? What? Well, no time spent shopping is, is more valuable. You know, time spent, stand watching tv. No, I think time spent creating, regardless of whether it gets made or shopping, you get paid. That to me is like, if you can afford that, if you have the life that can afford an hour a day or half hour a day just doing that, that's success.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, again, reframing that principle, this term we talk about in personal zone reframing, which is looking at your perspective through a different lens or mm-hmm. , you know, making a different story in your head about what it means. And I might be jumping the gun in here a little bit, but I, what I think you're getting to is one of the best strategies for dealing with rejection is reframing what success means. Because if I'm successful just for having finished a screenplay or a pilot that I love and I feel is representative of who I am today, not 10 years from now, or not my perfect myself, but who I am today, that's success. Passing it on to other people who ultimately don't like it or don't think it's works that might be rejection from a commercial perspective mm-hmm. , but it's all it is, is a litmus test for where I am today. And it doesn't expect me.

Michael Jamin:

And it's like what you're saying, like, to complete a screenplay, that's a big deal. That's a lot of work. You know, I I'm assuming you didn't write it in an afternoon. Like it's a lot. It's a big time commitment. A lot of thought went into it. And then when you finally finish it, that's a big deal. Most people only talk about writing a screenplay. Yeah. You know, they talk about it, but did you? And you did it. So that's success, you know?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. It's huge.

Michael Jamin:

Um, what else did I wanna say about this? Uh, oh, there's another, it's funny, I, I had this years ago when I was writing a King of the Hill, uh, uh, another writer on a John Collier who went on to become the showrunner of bones many years later. John's a is a great guy. And I remember complaining about something, uh, and I, and about it was, you know, it was jealousy, professional jealousy about something. And Collier said to me, he goes, you know, uh, there will always be someone younger than you, less talented than you, making more money than you. And I just thought that was perfect. I was like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. You know? So, you know, compare, you know? Yeah. That's just how it is. So you don't, I don't need to compare myself to that person. It's okay. So I'm, it's not, the world isn't always fair. The most talented people don't always win, you know, but that's, that doesn't mean it's not worthless. Doesn't mean you have less worth than somebody, or your work is less, less worth, uh, worthwhile. Um, yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I mean, think about just, uh, what it means to be an Olympian, right? For example, right? Mm-hmm. , the you're the best of the best of the best. And the top point, like 0, 0, 0, 0 1% of them get a gold medal. Yeah. Does that mean being an Olympian and getting a gold, a silver or a bronze makes you a failure?

Michael Jamin:

Not a, or even, there's so many people, especially like in women's gymnastics who are so good and they don't even make the team because of, you know, there's only so many slots and it's like they could have easily been on the team, you know?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. So, and, and there's stories of that happening too, where I think there was a, a skier from from Canada who didn't make the national team there. So he moved to Australia, became a citizen in Australia, and ended up winning the goal that the Winter Olympics for Australia.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Right. Yeah. So he was good. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

It's, it's a statement of, um, sometimes circumstance and, um, bad luck or bad timing prevent you from being, seeing the success in air quotes that you think you deserve. Uh, but you ultimately have the ability to change that. And I think that's something I appreciate about your message that you put out on social media and on a podcast, is stop giving control to everybody else and just take control of your own.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Stop asking for permission. And I'm, I am the same way, man. There's things that I want outta my career that I am not getting, and it doesn't, okay. I will figure out how to do it myself. Becau and I practice what I preach. Am I disappointed about? Yeah. But it is what it is. And so move forward and to be honest, so much about success in life is just not stopping. It's not, it's just like, it's just not quitting. It's just keeping, you know, it's, it's, everyone drops out. It's so hard that the fact that people drop out and stop doing it, that's good for you. That, that's cuz as long as you're committed to not stopping, that's good. That means, you know, you're still on the game whenever the people are just dropping out because they drop out because it's frustrating and it's hard. Good more room for me. You know,

Phil Hudson:

Literally, uh, your, your competition goes away. So I think I've heard people say you'll, anyone can make it in Hollywood if you're willing to, to last long enough. Yeah. Just last, the people around you, and we talked about this too, I think, um, you know, I look at the people that came from film school that I graduated with or I associated there and probably like half a dozen, dozen of those people here in Los Angeles, and two or three of my roommates have moved back to LA or moved back to their hometowns.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil Hudson:

Cause they just,

Michael Jamin:

They they didn't want enough or it is too hard. Yeah. Which is fine. It's a Well,

Phil Hudson:

They change their priorities. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And that's fair too. That is totally fair to change your priorities. It doesn't mean you're a loser. It doesn't mean you are a quitter. It just means, okay, now that you've gotten a little older, other things are more important to you. Okay. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with no shame in that. Uh, it, it's just the shame is not, it's really just not trying when you had the chance. Like that's, that's, you know, because I, I say, I've said this and I hope I haven't said this year, I probably have cause I repeat myself. But like, everything comes with a, in my opinion, everything comes with a price. Everything you do in life is either going to, you're going to either pay with sacrifice if, you know, if you want it bad enough, you're gonna sacrifice, you're gonna, or it'll, you'll pay in regret if you don't try it.

You know, one or the other, you're gonna pay my opinion regret costs more than sacrifice. But that's, that's a personal decision. So, you know. Yeah. And go, I just say go for it. And there's so many people. But, but you have to really put yourself, you know, you really have to be committed to putting a, a serious effort. Like, you know, take the time and work on your craft if that is, you know, all these things that you can do that other people just don't do, just out of laziness, you know? Mm-hmm. . And so whatever it is, like, even if it's like following my, watching my post, what post, one post that I posted day on Instagram or whatever, that's a three minute commitment. Can you commit to that? And if you can't and the these posts are meant to help you. And if you can't commit to that, what's going on in your life? What's going on with you can't find three minutes, you

Phil Hudson:

Know, the priority issues there. Right.

Michael Jamin:

And

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Look, I, I think, I think is there a need to decompress and a need for self-care? Absolutely. Is can you push yourself a lot, lot further than I than you think you can. Yes. Um, each of us have our own pain thresholds and tolerances, but those things can be developed over time. And so that doesn't mean you go to the gym and you blow out and you bust your butt as hard as you can day one and then you can't lift for five days because you're just so sore. You know, it means showing up and doing the minimum effective dose. What's that little bit that you can do today to get ahead Right? And you can transition your life. Yeah. I was, was a really interesting podcast. There's an episode of the Tim Fair Show with a, uh, an investment in Graham Duncan. And he talked about this principle of, of timeline horizons, which is I'm projecting out how far I'm gonna get things done. And often our timeline horizons are days and weeks, not years or decades. Right. And if he pulled up the number, and I'm gonna mess up the, the number here, but you can Google and look it up, but it says, if you look, think about the seconds, right? Like the how seconds work, A million seconds is 11 days. Mm-hmm.

Michael Jamin:

. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

A billion seconds is like 31 years end some change.

Michael Jamin:

Mm-hmm.

Phil Hudson:

. And so if you think about how rich you are in seconds and how valuable that time is mm-hmm. , the question is where are you spending those seconds? Right? Right. Are you spending those seconds on social media watching random stuff? Where are you engaging with and learning from people like you and other people who are ki trying to teach people and help the next, um, you know, group of screenwriters take, you know, come to Hollywood and succeed.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil Hudson:

Are you putting in that time working? Are you developing your story ideas? Are you breaking them? Are you educating yourself through YouTube videos, through um, taking online screenwriting courses? Are you take reading books? Are you, you know, working mm-hmm. and building a network of people. That's all valuable stuff that is part of the job. Screenwriting. Not just sitting down at the computer typing in final draft. You have to do all of those things.

Michael Jamin:

And I'll, I'll say this as well, like, let's say you don't want to, let's say you decide not to be a screenwriter and do something else. Like, just to be clear, whatever line of work you go into, you will deal with rejection . So it's like, it's not like the Hollywood owns, uh, has the monopoly on rejection. So you might as well get rejected from doing something you want to do . Yeah. You know, that's no

Phil Hudson:

Point. That was really interesting too. Cause I had an experience recently in Hollywood where, you know, I ran into trouble with somebody who was not necessarily what call a benevolent person they were mm-hmm. just kind of self-interested. And they tried to throw me under the bus for some things and I remember calling you and I was like, man, it made me wanna just give up and walk away. And he's like, that's cuz you've been working for yourself. If you've been working in any other job, you would've dealt with these people. Right. But I've been so employed for so long, I don't have to deal with crappy people. Mm-hmm. being crappy, but they exist everywhere. So yeah, they're everywhere. Okay. Am I gonna deal with in a corporate gig in to, in Toledo or am I gonna just be in Hollywood and do what I want to do anyway and just put up with it here? It's the same, same problem.

Michael Jamin:

And and this speaks also to actors. Like, you know, you wanna talk about, you think it's hard for me in a writer. I, I mean actors, they deal with rejection every day. But the smart ones, they reframe it. And so like the, I mean, oh, it's brutal to be an actor. And so they, back in the day when we were doing auditions in person, it wasn't uncommon for me to go to my office and then pass literally 10 actors sitting in the hallway outside my office waiting to read for a part. And then you call 'em in and you audition and you know, nine of them are not gonna get it. And one of them, only one will. And all 10 of them worked their butts off the night before preparing. Uh, then the next day they slept across town in traffic running from, you know, leaving their job, whatever it is to try to get this audition. And only one of those 10 actors is gonna get it. And so it's brutal. But the smart ones, they consider that audition as that's what, that's the goal. Uh, I get a chance to perform for three people, that's it. But I'm performing for three people. I'm not getting money, but I'm still performing for three people and just trying to impress them. And okay, so I didn't get this job. Maybe I'll get the next one. You know? Uh, yeah. And, and as long as I impress people

Phil Hudson:

Or Oras your wife Cynthia, who's a very talented actor, you know, she says is making an impact in the room so that the casting director remembers who you are. And that's how she got a lot of her work. I get a lot of auditions and they're from, um, acting or casting directors who know who I am. And they, they call me in for specific parts. Cause I'm a type, I'm, I'm not, you know, the leading man that most people think of. I, I play a type, um, you know, on the subject of reframing, since we both brought it up, I think it might be worth exploring a little bit just for a second and helping people understand what that is. Cause I'm sure some people don't understand that conceptually. So what we're talking about here is, there's several ways of looking at it. And you are gonna come in based off of your experiences, your unique experiences of life, you're gonna come at that with a story.

And that story's going to say, man, I busted my butt and I'm sitting in a room with 10 people who literally look just like me. Mm-hmm. , same height, physical build, everything, odds of me making this one in 10. I'm not gonna get this part. And if you let that affect you, you're gonna go in there and perform at a lower level than you could have otherwise. Mm-hmm. . Or you could tell yourself a different story, which is the reframing, which is I get the opportunity to perform for three people. I am an actor. This is incredible. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. or I get to go in and make an impression. You know, I think it's that, I don't know how true, how true it is, but it was that George Cloney story. Go, I go into the room and I think I started seeing success when I started saying I'm the solution to their problem. Mm-hmm. instead of I want them to give me this part.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Absolut's a reframe. What, what can you bring to the table? We'll get to that. But I should also say like, some people say like, you know, so I, I've worked with some writers who maybe you make you wonder, how do they, how are they here? Here? Like, they're not that good. How are they in the same room? And you know, but the truth is they're here cuz they didn't give up. Mm-hmm. , you know, good for them. They didn't give up. Uh, so that's why they're there, you know, and, and you know, maybe even if you think you have no talent, well maybe you could be one of those people by not giving up , you know, don't give up. That's all. Just keep at it.

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

So, okay, so one of the things I'm, I'm creatively most just, I'm just really into now is writing and performing, uh, my one man show. I'm just into it. And, and part of me wishes, ah, man, I wish I had started this 30 years ago when I was young and really made a go out of it. Right? Because now I'm kind of old. Uh, but the truth is I couldn't have done it then. I did. I wasn't a good enough writer back then to do it. This what, you know, I just, it took, this is how long it took. It takes a long time to learn how to write. Uh, and so, you know, it is, it is what it is. Mm-hmm. , you know,

Phil Hudson:

That's a really important note for people is oh yeah, you've had 26, 27 years experience, right? Mm-hmm. in Hollywood mm-hmm. , yeah. Years in Hollywood trying to break in before that college, lots of that time putting in effort knowing this is what you wanted to do and you're literally saying, I can do this job now. I couldn't do this 26 years ago.

Michael Jamin:

No way.

Phil Hudson:

10 years ago

Michael Jamin:

I got rejected from the Creative writing program in college twice. So I wasn't good enough to get into the creative writing program. Then when I moved out here and I took an a, uh, a writing class, uh, my, my teacher thought he was doing me a favor by saying, you know, you're not gonna be a good writer, you know, to do something else that way you'll be happier. And I, I was like, no, I, no one gets it to tell me what I'm gonna be. You know, I'll just have to, I may, I just have to learn more. I just have to study harder and just keep at it. Um, and, and you know, I had a, a moment honest, maybe, uh, maybe half a year ago, um, where I kind of just had this realization. I just finished writing one of my stories, my personal essays, and I had this moment where I kind of realized like, damn, I'm now the writer I always wanted to be when I was in college like that. And it took 26 years to get there, but I'm there now. And it's like, you know, it takes as long as it takes, but I, I went, I moved as fast as I could.

Phil Hudson:

It takes as long as it takes. Yeah. All. And are you ready? I didn't get outta the storm. Right. Yeah. And if you're not, then go be happy doing something else. And I, and I, I hated that advice. I heard that advice a lot. It's like, if you could be happy doing anything else, go do that.

Well, I don't agree with that. Cause I could be happy with a lot of things, but at the same time, I know I would be unhappy 20 years from now sitting at the theater knowing I didn't give him everything I had to do this. Right. That the unhappiness and you talk about rejection or regret earlier. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , this is this, there's something that people do that I think is a really powerful, um, experience, which is going into retirement centers and, um, you know, assisted living members Yeah. And spending time with them and talking to people at that last stage of their life. Mm-hmm. and all of them talk about their regrets. Mm-hmm. , I regret not doing this. Not chasing that dream. Not going after that girl or that guy, not mm-hmm. pursuing that thing, not, not taking that vacation, not spending more time on the family. It's all regret, regret, regret. And so,

Michael Jamin:

Right. So you, you're not gonna regret trying. You'll say, okay, it didn't work out. I didn't succeed, but you're not gonna regret having tried. Why you wouldn't.

Phil Hudson:

I just had a really, you know, I had to go in and do, um, ADR for the role I played on Tacoma fd, which was a really cool experience. And afterwards we were talking, it was me and, um, two of the guys who work on our post team. Uh, one of 'em was senior level, one of 'em, you know, uh, uh, coordinator level. And we were talking about Brian, cause the coordinator wanted to be a writer. And he, we were talking about scripts and the other one was like, yeah, I went out, I came out to LA and I gave him what I had for like 10 years. And I was good enough to get meetings. And then I remember I was a reader for, um, a studio and the film phenomenon came around and I read that script and I thought, that is what I want to write. That is so good. And then it clicked, I will never be that good. And that's like, that's what it realized. Okay, I gave it my shot. Now let me have a career in Hollywood that I can still enjoy.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Okay. And that was for him, his moment. You know, it was like, I try,

Michael Jamin:

But he could, I, I, I disagree. He might've, he might've, he stuck with it. He might have written,

Phil Hudson:

There you go. But for him, that was his moment. And he doesn't live with regret about that.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil Hudson:

Okay. Which, which, yeah, he could, he continued to push through it probably.

Michael Jamin:

So I did a post a couple of days ago, or weeks ago, I don't remember. But, um, some people think like, what are the odds of me making it in Hollywood? You know, there's, there's too many people I'll ne I'll never become a screenwriter. I'll never, you know, I'll never make it. But the truth is, the odds aren't as bad as you think they are because yes, everyone and their brother has a script that they're trying to sell and one and dreams of, you know, whatever. I have an idea why one, yes. So many people have that, but the vast majority of those people are not serious about it. They're just not. And so it's like saying, you know, entering the New York City marathon where it's some, I don't know, like 50,000 people enter that race, right? And she would say, oh my God, I gotta beat 50,000 people.

If I wanna win the marathon, I gotta beat 50,000 people. No, you don't. Only a couple dozen of them have any chance, have any shot of actually winning the thing. Most of those people are just, they're running for the fun of it. They're running to say, say they did it. They're running to maybe beat their previous time, but only a couple. It doesn't have any shot of winning this thing. And they train every day. They take it seriously. They have habits and they race. And these guys, these men and women want to win the thing. So if you wanna win the marathon, you don't have to be 50,000 people. You have to beat two dozen people. That's it. That's it. And the same thing with being a screenwriter. Most people just don't take it seriously. So you don't have to beat, forget about those people. Are you taking it seriously? Are you studying? Are you working? Are you working every day? Are you right, working under craft? Or you're learning? Are you improving? Are you that person? Because then you might have a shot.

Phil Hudson:

That's another beautiful reframe right there for anyone who's keeping score, right? Yeah. Oh look, I gotta beat five 50,000 people. No, you need to be beat two dozen.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Or less. You know,

Phil Hudson:

It's, but it goes back to what you've always said though. You have to treat the job. If you're gonna be a professional screenwriter, you have to be a professional. Yeah. You have to get up, you have to write, you have to do the daily habits that get you there. And if you're not doing that, then again, you don't have three minutes to listen to Michael Jam and give you a tip today about screenwriting. What are you doing with your life? Why are you doing this?

Michael Jamin:

But also, if you don't enjoy it, if you don't enjoy the sitting down and writing, if you're not getting something out of that. And why do you want to be a writer? And, you know, cuz you're, are you doing it for the money, for the fame? There's other ways to become famous and rich than, than doing that. So, and, and, and by the way, there's a lot of work that I have to do as a professional writer that I have to do for free. So if I'm not enjoying that part, like why am I doing any of this? You know? So like, why, why do you wanna be a screenwriter if you don't enjoy writing? You know?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I do a lot of work for free

Phil Hudson:

Clout fame, prove people wrong. Again, there's

Michael Jamin:

No clout. I don't walk into the supermarket and people fuck they, they throw food at me. You know, I, I What's the clout ? No one cares. No one cares. Uh, you know, you gotta do it for yourself.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, I know. Uh, reality TV stars who, uh, flip houses on TV and then they can get into clubs because they have recognition. I know a lot of writers who no one knows who they are at all.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, no one know. I mean, it's so funny that, uh, it's so funny. There's only a handful of famous writers, really. I mean, I guess Quentin Tarantino, who else? I mean, who, I mean, you can name it a handful. Sean Writers Sorkin. Right. He's probably the, he's a great example. Aaron Sorkin. But the rest of us you never heard of.

Phil Hudson:

Right.

Michael Jamin:

You know, uh, and but we, we exist

Phil Hudson:

. That's right.

Michael Jamin:

Um,

Phil Hudson:

That's

Michael Jamin:

Right. So

Phil Hudson:

You had some beautiful notes here about, um, rejection, some experiences. Like, there's this Einstein quote that I think is really Oh

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Certain my Einstein, my shameless Einstein behind me. I've had this thing for years. But, um, yeah, I think that that quote's pretty beautiful. And I think that's a, a good point that would help people.

Michael Jamin:

He said, Einstein has a famous quote. He, he said, and he was smart. We can agree on that. The most important decision you'll ever make is, is the world benevolent? That's it. And this is, I mean, it's almost, it's very spiritual and you're like, Einstein said that. Yeah. And it's because if you think the world is benevolent, if you, if the universe is out to give you and, and help you, then you will see proof of that everywhere you look. If you think the world is malevolent out to get you, then you will see proof of that. You'll see all, everything will back up that, uh, will support. It's funny, I was just watching an episode of, um, uh, Gimel del Toro's, uh, curiosity Curio, whatever it's called. He has a, he has a, uh, a television show about, you know, it's like an anthology series.

And in this one episode, there's this one guy, and he's kind of like, he's bidding on a, um, uh, one of those lockers, the storage lockers. I can't remember the actor. He's, he's a good actor. He's great. But the point is, this guy was like on the bottom of society and everything he saw was, I'm getting screwed left and right. Everything. That's how he, that's how he saw the world. Mm-hmm. is just that through that lens. And even when something good happened to him, it was, nah, the world is out to screw me. And, you know, and there are people who think that way. And the other hand, if you make the decision that the world is here to help me, every little thing, even when the, even when things aren't going my way, that's just a sign of the universe giving me this little challenge to help me in a different way. You know? And if that's how you see it, you'll just be a happier person. You

Phil Hudson:

Know, again, it's a, it's a frame. You get to choose which frame the lens through which you view the world. Mm-hmm. and I, to back to something you said earlier that reminded me of this anecdote from when I was in sales, you know, I didn't want to be a sales guy. I, I kind of pushed back, but it was, uh, in the middle of the recession and I had to take the job. It paid way more than I was thinking of about other jobs I was doing. And so I was like, okay, we'll do it. And I, I sucked for like six months, honestly, looking back, it's kind of amazing. I wasn't fired, but my boss believed in me. And he gave me this book on sales and I read it, and in it, there's a note, like right at the beginning, he says, A sales champion has to remember that every no gets you closer to a yes.

Mm-hmm. . It's just an average. It's a, it's a law of averages. I know that for every 10 people I ask for the sale, one or two of them is gonna say yes. And so instead of being upset or feeling rejected, because everyone shoots you down, you know, eight of 10 are gonna shoot you down, say thank you. Why? Because that person, you just save time, not wasted. It's gonna get you to the person who's gonna give you your Yes. Faster. And so that's what this is. I mean, you're, you're just, thank you so much for that rejection. Now I'm closer.

Michael Jamin:

But it, it's even deeper than even the see, you write a screenplay and doesn't sell, but the process of writing it gives you some kind of joy or satisfaction or helps you see the world in a different way. Or meditation gives you some kind of, yeah. It brings you some kind of inner peace or whatever. Isn't that like, why isn't that wonderful? You know? Yeah. And so even like, that's a great point. I go back to the show that I, that I'm, that I'm doing. It's like, I wrote this bunch of pieces and people were really moved by that. And like, I was just so, they were grateful to me, but I was grateful to them. I really like the fact, it just brought meaning to me that I was able to bring meaning to them. Like that, that I told them a story that touched them.

That, and I say this and every, the, the goal, whenever I'm writing a piece and you can't achieve it on every piece, it's just not possible. But cuz there has to be a different, every, every piece has to be a little different. But like, when I'm writing, I'm always thinking, how can I get the person who read this or who watched this or see my goal is like, they just left the theater, they just saw my show. Can I get them to sit in the car for just a few seconds before they turn the ignition on and just feel like, what the hell did I just see? Or what did I hear? Like, like, can I get them to just stop for a second and feel it? You know, that to me is the victory. It's not, it's really not. It's nothing else. Um, and, and sometimes he, like so many people afterwards said to me, oh, you should, will you trim this into a TV show? Will you sell it as like, I don't, I don't even know. That's not the goal. I swear to God, that's not the goal. Um, if I did sell it as a TV show, I'd make some money. I would have to make some changes and compromises that I don't really, that's not why I'm doing this. I don't wanna compromise anybody. Like after doing this for so many years, I don't wanna compromise it anymore. . I just want to do something that's, uh, you know, authentic to my myself.

Phil Hudson:

You're, you're taking the advice you give everyone that follows you on social media, hundreds of thousand. I hope so. Follow you, which is put it out there. Just, just put it out there.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Put it out there and see, do

Phil Hudson:

It yourself.

Michael Jamin:

Put it out there and see if you can, uh, affect people on an emo you know, on some kind of emotional scale. And don't think about yourself. What's in it for me? No. What's in, what's in for them? What can I give them? How can I give them an experience?

Phil Hudson:

Serve, it's serving them. Yeah. Um, this, this ties into a principle of neurolinguistic programming, nlp, which is just a, it's a pseudoscience around psychology, but it just kind of looks at how people think about things. And it's, there's one principle that that really stood out to me, which is when I feel love, right? Like mm-hmm. My wife tells me she loves me. What is that actually saying? Or when I tell my wife I love her, it's the inverse. When I tell my wife I love her, what I'm really saying is, I love that I can love myself through you. Right? Mm-hmm.

, I feel love for myself. When my daughter comes up and says that that, and hugs my leg when I come home, I feel love for myself. I feel I am lovable. Mm-hmm. . And effectively, if you think about it from this emotional passing or transition that we're talking about here, that's what I'm hearing you say is you are transitioning an emotion to these people mm-hmm. , that they are unwilling to or uncapable of filling in that moment themselves. Mm-hmm. . And when they come give you gratitude, it's giving you gratitude for the time, energy, and effort you put into it just as much as they're feeling for whatever it is that you triggered inside of them.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And it's, and it's a gift if you look at it as a gift that you're giving somebody. Cuz not everyone can write or write well or not everyone wants to go there in. They're real. And it's painful to go. Some of the stories I tell, like, I can see why people wanna ignore that kind of stuff. Yeah. Uh, you know, it is painful, but, um, if you can give them that, you're really giving them a gift. And, uh, and that's so gratifying to give someone that experience and move them in such a way, like why does there have to be a dollar sign attached to it? Like, you know what I'm saying? You don't, and for anyone's listening to this, you don't have to, you don't have to sell your script to, uh, in Hollywood for a quarter of a million dollars to be successful.

Like, can't you stage something at your community theater and, and get that same emo? I mean honestly, can't you? Why, why and why not? Yeah. You know, why can't you write something small and put it up on this community theater or have them have them stage it for you, whatever. And as long as the writing is good, you can give the same number of people, you know, a small number of people, whatever, 80 people at a time, a wonderful experience. And you don't have to get paid a quarter of a million dollars. You can get paid nothing and still feel on top of the world.

Phil Hudson:

What's the value of impacting just one person.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Phil Hudson:

Huge. Tremendous. I mean, think about yourself. How many times have you gone through your life and someone impacted you in a way that changed, changed or transitioned. Mm-hmm. your day or your week or your entire life. Mm-hmm. . And it's probably a small one that that person doesn't even remember that is so valuable to you. Mm-hmm. . And we get the luxury and opportunity to do that as riders. Yeah. And, uh, Michael, I I just want to again, thank you for the perspective that you put out there, because so many people, and I'm a hundred percent guilty of this comment at it from a, from a capitalist money hungry perspective of I want, I want, I want significance from my peers. I want to feel special. I want to feel like I I'm worth something in the small rock in the middle of a space. And all you're saying is you can do that. And you don't have to be, you don't need approval from anybody to do

Michael Jamin:

That. Yeah. You don't need Exactly. Hollywood. Right? You don't have, Hollywood doesn't have to give you permission. You can do it on your own. You just have to know how to, you just have to know how to do it. You have to write, you have to get good at it. So you, so you can do it that's on you, but you don't need anyone's per, uh, permission to do it even

Phil Hudson:

If it 26 years.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. There is a story. It's funny, the, one of the stories that I'm telling, uh, next week actually my show, I have another two shows in LA next week. And so one of the stories, it's kind of a funny little thing. So when I was in college, my friend and I went to uh, uh, we were walking through Neiman Marcus and there was a, you know, in the mall and there's a woman spraying cologne. And so, uh, do you want it? So we, we both, I walked through the cloud and, you know, whatever I was wanted 19 or whatever I was. And uh, and I said to her, I don't smell anything. Right. And it was such a dumb thing to say like, , why am I calling her out? Right? And she said to me, oh, that means you're not ready for it. And it was such a condescending thing to say, , and I was fuming and I spent the next 20 years fuming over this.

Like, uh, uh, and then, you know, cause it's like, how would you say that? And that became the subject of one of the pieces that I'm performing, uh, next weekend, which is basically I reframed it. I thought, well what if I write a story where this woman who I've voiced, like how dare she, what if she was right? What if I wasn't ready for it? And so that's the subject of the story. And that's just like a little moment. And that a tiny moment from my past that I turned into a 25 minute story, uh, and I get to do that. I get to do that because I'm a writer. But

Phil Hudson:

We all have this, what I love about that is like, I connected with that immediately just on the premise. Like I felt that in my, in my soul, and I'm sure other people listening us did too. And it took me to this moment, like when I was a missionary, um, you're out there and you're paying your way and you don't get paid to do it. And so we would be invited into, uh, homes and they would, people would feed us, uh, members of the congregation would feed us. And we went into this pretty wealthy neighborhood and it's like steak and potatoes, which is awesome. I'm on the border of Mexico and in America in Texas. And, uh, we sit down with a woman and she's like, oh, so what do you guys wanna do when you get back? And at the time I was like, oh yeah, I think I'm gonna go get my mba. And she goes, oh, that'll be good for you. You could run a subway . Oh, the indignation I feel is still from that comment. It's just like, who do you think I am? Like , you know, I could run a subway

Michael Jamin:

And that's why it's great to write about that.

Phil Hudson:

What I love about that, immediately I came back from a mission and I got a job as a manager of a sandwich show.

Michael Jamin:

. There you go.

Phil Hudson:

I need mba.

Michael Jamin:

I don't need an, yeah. Uh, there's just so many wonderful things. Like, I don't know, if you're a writer, you get to go back and one of the, honestly, and I know I'm, I guess I'm changing the subject, but, um, one of the things about the show that is so interesting to me that I get to perform to do it. And again, this is not me, Hollywood. This is me performing in a small theater. . Yeah. That could be anywhere. You know? And I, and it is everywhere cause I travel with the show. But, um, one of the things that, uh, that I get to do, I, it, it occurred to me, and someone brought this up during my, one of the questions the q and a after you tried for q and a and uh, is that I get to, it's a time machine. I'm up there on stage and I'm going back through periods of my life and I'm in it and I'm performing it and I'm living it as if it happened to me 20, 30, 40 years ago. And it's so powerful to be in that moment. And that's something only a writer, I guess and a writer performer can do, is I built a fricking time machine.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You know, and so that's powerful to be able to do that. And that's, you don't have, you know, Hollywood doesn't have to pay you to do that. You can do that on your own if you know how to write.

Phil Hudson:

And the flip side of this conversation is if you do that and you do that well that is the kind of thing that draws attention and will probably read to Hollywood paying you to do that.

Michael Jamin:

It's possible. Yeah. It's po we'll say it's in, it's so interesting. One of the other things is, I, I, what I should mention is like, during this time machine when I'm performing and I'm in it this time, and some of these moments are from childhood, which are painful or funny or whatever. This time I'm reliving it, but I'm not alone. I'm with a room full of people, you know, I'm not alone. And it's, uh, it's a wonderful ex, you could feel it, you could feel, you could hear a needle drop, you could feel Yeah. Uh, people on the edge of their seat, you can get there. And, uh, like, and so what, so what if I didn't make a a ton of money from this? So what isn't that great? You know? Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. It provides value and meaning to your life, you know? Yeah. World where many people struggle with that. I struggle. Yeah. From time to time.

Michael Jamin:

Uh, yeah. We all do. And I, part of the thing is I get a lot of writers cuz they follow me on, you know, social media. They come to the show and they say, man, you've inspired me. I'm like, good cuz you could do this too. Yeah. You have moments in your life you can do it. What's stopping you, you can do it.

Phil Hudson:

If there's anything that summarizes my experience with you, Michael, as a mentor and a friend, it's mm-hmm. , you can do this too. I, I think that that is yeah, a very beautiful summary of your perspective and why you put yourself out there is to help people understand you can do this too.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You can do it. It's like I, I, if I can help you just take what's inside of you and express it in a way that's engaging to other people. That's, that's the hard part, right? Yeah. That's what we, that's what we teach. But if you've learned how to do that, then you're giving people a gift.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You know? Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Beautiful. Michael, any other thoughts on rejection or, or

Michael Jamin:

That's it. The beauty. That's how we deal with rejection. That's how, uh, that's it. It's how we deal with rejection. Phil, is there anything else we should No,

Phil Hudson:

No. I, I think, I think again, really, really positive stuff. It's great to be back here having these conversations with you. Yeah. I've truly missed, um, connecting with you this way and, and I, I hope that, I know that you've had some amazing guests on the podcast and I think that that perspective is mm-hmm. so beautiful for writers to hear and learn and see how these people made it happen. So most people are some really big names that we've all looked up to for years as well. Mm-hmm. where their stories have impacted us. And to have that opportunity to interact with him on his human level is, is pretty incredible.

Michael Jamin:

It's funny cuz when I talk to some many of my guests, I go, you're saying everything that I've just said on my social, and we just laugh cuz it's, we all have very similar experiences about, you know, success, failure, how to make in h what the, what the journey's, like how to increase, increase your odd stuff like that.

Phil Hudson:

So, but it's beautiful. I mean, that's, it's a, it is, I think it's unifying for people like me and people like me 10 years ago, or anywhere in between there who are just trying to make this happen. It's, it's a, it's a very important lesson for people to know that you can, you can do this too. Mm-hmm. here is the, here are the mental and physical hurdles you're gonna have to overcome to do that. And the emotional hurdles. And if you can break through and you can be vulnerable and you can push, you can reframe what rejection means to you. You can have an impact. Even if it means you never become a name writer like Aaron Sorkin. Yeah. But you can still have an impact, even if it's one person in your own town or one person who watches that you do video you put out. Yeah. And that's enough.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Enjoy the process.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome.

Michael Jamin:

All righty, everyone. We're gonna, we're until our next podcast is what should we, uh, mention, Phil, should we

Phil Hudson:

Mention? Yeah, it's, look, we talk about this stuff all the time. We, you have a, a free first lesson from your screenwriting [email protected] slash free. And I think it is one of the most valuable lessons people can learn. It's literally the very first personal message you lesson you ever taught me, um mm-hmm. years ago

Michael Jamin:

You said. Yeah. Go grab that. That'll help for sure.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, absolutely. Get that, get on the watch list, Michael jammy.com/watch list. You send out your top three pieces of content every week goes, that'll your Friday. Yeah. Um, do you have your online screenwriting course, which I am your biggest fan of personally? Yeah. The impact has had on my writing, and I know that that goes across the word for hundreds of people at this point.

Michael Jamin:

The whole thing was your idea. To be honest,

Phil Hudson:

, I've, I I've been for years and I've told it so many times. Years. I mean, 20, 20 15. I, I was pushing for you to do that, and you're like, no, I don't. It's not what I gotta, that's not what I do. Like I don't have time. I'm so grateful. You did. I know there were plenty of people just like me who did. So michael jamen.com/course. You can go check that out. Um,

Michael Jamin:

Cannot, you know what else we can, you know, else we can unplug as I start touring with this, it's still whatever city you live in. If you want me to come to your city, go to michael jamen.com/upcoming and then enter your information there. That way when I do come, uh, when I get to your town, I'll, I'll, you know, you'll, you'll be alerted

Phil Hudson:

U P C O M I N G upcoming

Michael Jamin:

Up. Upcoming, yeah. Upcoming. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome.

Michael Jamin:

Um, all right, everyone.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Thanks guys. Appreciate it. Michael, thank you so much for your time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, thank you all. Until next time, be safe.

Phil Hudson:

Keep writing.

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Bryan Behar is a writer/producer known for Wilfred, Glenn Martin D.D.S., and Las Man Standing. Join Michael Jamin and Bryan Behar in this deep conversation, perfect for emerging writers or aspiring TV Writers.

Bryan Behar on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0066864/

Bryan Behar on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bryanbehar

Bryan Behar on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bryan_behar/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Michael Jamin:

Someone said, well, you know, when are they gonna, are they gonna bring back multi-camera sick? They should bring 'em back.

Bryan Behar:

They exist Uhhuh. But they exist either for the very old or the very young. But there's been an entire generation that has been raised without them.

Michael Jamin:

Right? And

Bryan Behar:

Which infuriates me because as a historian of the, of the genre, I look back as recently as a couple years ago, and in the previous, I think 60 years of sitcoms, the number one sitcom on the air, uh, in terms of total viewers had been a multicam in 59 of the six first 60 years.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam.

Hey everybody, welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jam. I got a special guest today. But you know, the way, um, the Letterman show always opens with, you know, my next guest needs no introduction. Well, my next guest needs an introduction, but he's like, . But, but you know what? All writers need introductions. No one's ever heard of any of us. But I'm here with Brian Behar and he is, dude, this guy's got a, he's a sitcom writer with a list of a laundry list of shows that he's worked on. I'm Brian. I'm gonna run through those cuz I'm sure you've forgotten half the credits. That's how many credits you have. All

Bryan Behar:

Right. I, I could name three, so please.

Michael Jamin:

, we started his, his career with the illustrious teen Angel, and then we slowly move up to working. I remember that show. I'd forgotten you were on work. You had some,

Bryan Behar:

I started with Ned and Stacy, but that may not have appeared on the, on your laundry list.

Michael Jamin:

Uh, my researchers who basically just download imdb did not tell me that. But we're gonna go on the IMDB order. , okay. That's accurate. Uh, then dag, remember that show with Andy and Eileen Baby Bob, you remember that show Baby Bob?

Bryan Behar:

The biggest hit I've ever been on ,

Michael Jamin:

Then a usa

Bryan Behar:

And I still quit because I, as I told the Showrun my self-esteem can't handle running into anyone I went to high school with telling them I'm on Baby Bob. Sorry, Saltzman.

Michael Jamin:

Sorry. The, then a usa and then Andy Richter controls the universe. Guys, hang on. This guy's got so many credits then I'm with her. Although we're not sure if it's I'm with her or I'm with her.

Bryan Behar:

Brent Must Berger said I'm with her. So it was, I'm with her

Michael Jamin:

, I'm with her. I'm coughing. Then eight simple rules. How many of the rules did you ever get to before they canceled the show, by the way?

Bryan Behar:

Uh, we were on the fourth rule.

Michael Jamin:

Fourth rule. I was on, by the way, rules of engagement. So, oh.

Bryan Behar:

And I've done three shows with the working of the title

Michael Jamin:

. Then, then the New Adventures of Old Christine. The, the old conventions of new Christine would've been better, but apparently that's okay. Then The Jake Effect.

Bryan Behar:

Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Weak shots. I don't even know what that is, to be honest.

Bryan Behar:

Oh, that was an, that was a highly touted one hour.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, so you can talk about some drama experience.

Bryan Behar:

I can talk about anything.

Michael Jamin:

It doesn't mean, doesn't mean what you're talking about, but you can talk about

Bryan Behar:

Any Yeah, no, you're not gonna be able to stop me

Michael Jamin:

then. Big. Okay. Big shots then. True. Jackson vp, which was on Nickelodeon

Bryan Behar:

One episode. I, I wrote a, I wrote a story. Let's not get carried away.

Michael Jamin:

All right. Let's not give you too much credit then. Wil, which we worked on together.

Bryan Behar:

Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Talking Dog Show.

Bryan Behar:

Oh, that's where's our other Talking dog show? That that should have been a, uh, oh,

Michael Jamin:

Getting there. Glen Martin dds. No one knows what that is, but that's when we first worked together.

Bryan Behar:

But if you love, uh, Canadian cable Claymation shows you might like Glen

Michael Jamin:

. You might like it. Uh, last Man Standing

Bryan Behar:

Like animation with a laugh track that isn't jaber. You're gonna love Glen. You're,

Michael Jamin:

That's how they promoted it. Then, uh, last Man Standing, which you were not one of the last men standing on that show.

Bryan Behar:

No, I was the first to go. But

Michael Jamin:

. Well, Jack, no, Jack was the first to go.

Bryan Behar:

That's true. Greater

Michael Jamin:

Was the first to go.

Bryan Behar:

Then he came back and then he went again, and then he came back. So, yes,

Michael Jamin:

I didn't realize he came back. Sorry. Then saved me. I don't know what that is. Do you know what that is?

Bryan Behar:

Give me a moment.

Michael Jamin:

Was that just a letter that you wrote to your agent

Bryan Behar:

? Um, I did, I did write that letter from the writer's room of Save Me . Um, that was a show about Ann Hay, uh, think she Can Speak to God. And that was the least crazy part of the show.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I did not know that. We'll talk about that.

Bryan Behar:

Yes, please.

Michael Jamin:

Uh, then we'll talk about Kirsty, which we worked again on You guys brought, I mean, me and my partner in on to do a freelance of that. And I had the great Cogan on the show a couple weeks ago.

Bryan Behar:

Oh my goodness. Well, you, you've got to everyone before me. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

I I, yeah. This is the bottom of the barrel week. I

Bryan Behar:

Know, I saw on the list. I was like,

Michael Jamin:

. Really?

Bryan Behar:

So go ahead.

Michael Jamin:

Uh, I also have here Jennifer Falls

Bryan Behar:

And does not get back up. Yes. All yes, I've heard them all. Uh,

Michael Jamin:

Ratings falls then Ned and Stacy we have on here. I don't know why it's, it's out of order here, but yes, that was 1997 N and Stacy there. And then finally, uh, you were the, you were the showrunner of Fuller House, the, the full House Free make.

Bryan Behar:

That is correct. I was,

Michael Jamin:

Now you,

Bryan Behar:

Is the first time you're hearing

Michael Jamin:

This. I had no idea. , you've, now you're fond to say that I think you've, like, you've worked on 20, it's 26 shows. Is that what it is?

Bryan Behar:

21 shows in 26 seasons,

Michael Jamin:

21 shows. And think about, so this is a career, guys. You

Bryan Behar:

Are, this is a hard way to do it.

Michael Jamin:

It is the hard way.

Bryan Behar:

Apply for a new job twice a year.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And it's act I mean, to be honest, it was, um, it was more doable then than it is now. I mean, now it's really hard to do that.

Bryan Behar:

I have no idea what people do now. Yeah. Which is, which makes me a sort of, sort of a sham as a, a teacher of, of sitcoms as I'm trying to, um, encourage and promote people to take a, take the, the risk and, uh, and jump in. But, uh, I have no idea what a career trajectory, uh, looks like today. It was, it, it, it it was very, uh, understandable when we broke in. Yeah. Like, it, like there was a clearer path and you're like, oh, I can go from show to show and there's enough sitcoms and there's, you know, I can just, if I lose one job, I'll just walk to the next bungalow on CBS Bradford and knock on the door and hope somebody else lets us in. But

Michael Jamin:

That's, that's what I say. I say maybe I wonder if you agree. I say that, um, I think it's easier to break in now, but it's harder to make a sustain a career. What do you think?

Bryan Behar:

Um, well, I'm, I'm certainly not gonna disagree with you on your own show. I mean, you, you ,

Michael Jamin:

Please, if you do, I just edit it out.

Bryan Behar:

You have your burgeoning media empire here and I looking to be part of it. Um, God, how many does it? Okay. Um, I think you're right. Um, and by that, i I, I don't know if it's harder to sustain a career. I see a lot more people not entirely willing to commit to putting a career together.

Michael Jamin:

What does that

Bryan Behar:

Mean? Which, I mean, there's been such, um, on social media and in the press, there's such a sort of hype surrounding the concept of like the celebrity showrun that, and, and sort of with the advent of streaming services, that there's this idea that anyone can get a show on the air at any time and immediately jump from like an unemployed, unemployable, aspiring writer to a show runner. Mm-hmm. without doing any of the work in between. Like, you know, I know I hate to sound old fashioned, but you and I, we definitely put in the time working up the rung, working up the ladder. So when we finally got that call to run a show, I, you know, we, we had the skill set presumably, you know, we had been learning, we'd been acquiring a certain set of skills. Um, and I don't know that that is really like, promoted as much,

Michael Jamin:

But are you seeing people with not, with not a lot of experience becoming share owners?

Bryan Behar:

No. Um, but I'm seeing, but I'm hearing a lot of that's the aspiration.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, oh, yes. That's for sure. I hear that a lot.

Bryan Behar:

You know, like, you know, because I know you talk to a lot of people, you know, who were, you know, aspiring TV writers. And I, you know, I was doing a lot of talks on, on Clubhouse, and a lot of ask me anything kind of talks on, on Twitter and, and the, the question always sort of circles back to how do I sell a pilot to Netflix? How do I get a show on the streamer? How do I become a show runner? And it's not like, oh, what samples do I need Yeah. To break in? What skills do I need to move up the ladder? You know, it's just a different mindset. Like, it never would've occurred to me. I didn't, I didn't even sell a pilot or even attempt a pilot until I had been on 12 networks at college.

Michael Jamin:

It's so fun, Brian. It's like, maybe we're just the old guys, but this is exactly what I say all the time. I mean, so I'm glad that I'm not the only one saying it, or thinking at

Bryan Behar:

Least. No, there are, there are two old guys in the Yeah, we have become the guys from the puppets, but

Michael Jamin:

The cranky old guys Yeah. In

Bryan Behar:

Waldorf and Staler.

Michael Jamin:

But, but you, so I wanna actually wanna mention this. I wanna jump around for a second. So yes, you are also teaching at Chapman University. You're teaching, uh, is it television writing? What are you, what's their course?

Bryan Behar:

Um, yeah. Um, I'm teaching, I, I just, I started last semester from, this was my first time. Um, and, and currently in this fall semester, I'm teaching two classes. One is a sitcom writing class, uh, for graduate students, uhhuh. And one is a pilot writing class for undergrads. And then I'm gonna do two, they've already asked me back, uh, for two sitcom classes, uh, in the spring semester.

Michael Jamin:

Wow, that's

Bryan Behar:

Great. Yeah. It seems to be what I do. Uh,

Michael Jamin:

So you're enjoying it then? I love

Bryan Behar:

It. I love it. And I, uh,

Michael Jamin:

You weren't sure if you were gonna enjoy it?

Bryan Behar:

No, I, it, it actually took a little bit of Mm, a little coaxing internally in the family. You know, my wife had a bit of a come to Jesus moment with me. You know how, I don't know if you've heard the old joke, but they say that in Hollywood, you're retired for seven years before you realize it. Well, I had been retired for three years, and my wife was certainly well aware, and I was, I was starting to get it. Um, and she really was, you know, she really sat me down and said, like, you know, is this what you wanna do the rest of your life? Just keep banging your head against the same wall? Or is there, is there a wall you can go around and find something that gives you joy? And this has been great. What

Michael Jamin:

Exactly do you like about it?

Bryan Behar:

Well, I like not being on a TV show, which apparently Hollywood, Hollywood and myself have the same, like

Michael Jamin:

You do have the same goal for you.

Bryan Behar:

They both, my, my, uh, agent manager, Hollywood producers and teaching, I'll see it the same way. .

Michael Jamin:

Um,

Bryan Behar:

No, I, I, I love, I mean, it, it, it's something so special to be around people who just are filled with nothing but hope and nothing but confidence. And, you know, it's really, I mean, if I have to spend my days around people who are positive and, and still love, have a love for the art and a love for the craft, and would give anything to be in television or be, you know, be by myself or be around a lot of bitter people complaining about why they're not in, you know, I'll take the four hours of driving down to Orange County anytime. Uh, it, it's, it's been great. And I didn't, I had no idea if I would like it.

Michael Jamin:

Well, first of all, it's not really a four hour drive.

Bryan Behar:

It's, it's two hours each way.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. Um,

Bryan Behar:

So yes, for clarity's sake. Okay. It's not a four hour drive each way, but it is.

Michael Jamin:

But, and I'm sure what surprises you, cause it does surprise me, is just, is how much you actually know about how to do this. Right.

Bryan Behar:

That's the other fun part. I mean, that's is, I mean, and I don't mean it in like a smug, self satisfactory kind of way that like, wow, I'm, I'm smart, I've learned things, but when you're, when you're actually seeing it through the perspective of, of new writers and, you know, and new students and, and you're imparting knowledge on them, and, and it's, and like you said, it's not even knowledge that you're aware you have. Right. It's, we've almost picked it up by osmosis. But I mean, you know, me and I think you're a lot, you're really kind of the same way where, you know, we were both students of, of television, students of the TV history, students of the craft, you know, more than a lot of people who we did it alongside. I mean, so I think it makes sense. The, the two of us have found virgins of, of offering guidance and coaching and Yeah. And, you know, and trying to impart expertise. But it, it is, it is really satisfying and gratifying to, to realize like, wow, I, I actually did learn something. I actually have a certain level of skill. And, you know, all those years were not for, not, yeah. I'm spelling not differently in those two cases, but

Michael Jamin:

K n

Bryan Behar:

O t not for nothing. Yes. , I mean, I know you're from the tri-state area. I should, I should have said it more colloquial,

Michael Jamin:

But, um, and so, yeah. Good. So, and you're enjoying that and you, the class sizes are kind of small or what?

Bryan Behar:

Yeah, I had, uh, seven last semester. My grad student was, is nine, and then 15, uh, I got 15 in my, uh, pilot class, you know, but it's, it's way tougher than I expected. You know, like, I, like they turn in, you know, like pages of a script or an outline, uh, the day before we go into class. And I, and I'm so like, you know, of, of the neurotic sense of I need to give them their money's worth, you know, they're paying a lot for the, so I write up about three pages of notes per student, per class. Wow. So, pilot class, that's, I'm writing up 45 pages of notes between the hours of two and eight on a Thursday night just to make sure I have something to give them

Michael Jamin:

A lot of work, dude,

Bryan Behar:

You know, you know, on Friday. And it's like, wow, you know, I, I used to do half the amount of work for a lot more money, but it, you know, I don't know that I would do that again. And

Michael Jamin:

Let me be clear.

Bryan Behar:

And that's okay. I've made, I really have made my peace, which, which is threatening to people. You know, I had, I had lunch with a writer we both know the, uh, last week. And he is like, you, you want back in? I was like, no, I really don't. He's like, you can't be at peace. I'm like, no, I'm at peace. He goes, what if I offered you

Michael Jamin:

Go?

Bryan Behar:

Yeah. And I was like, he goes, what if I offered you a job on a, on a, on a pilot? I was like, okay, well first you'd have to get it on the air and you're not going to offer it. I said, but yeah, sure. Let's say you offered me a job. I'm not gonna like turn it down out of hand. Um, but I don't think it's gonna happen. He goes, yeah, probably not. He goes, your old partner's, uh, wife works at the network. She never let me hire you anyway. I'm like, then why are we having this discussion? You, you better pay for lunch.

Michael Jamin:

Could you wait, can you say who it was?

Bryan Behar:

This was Marco from, uh,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, Marco, really? Marco

Bryan Behar:

From, uh, yeah, from our Kirsty,

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Marco from Hello Marco from Kirsty.

Bryan Behar:

Hello Marco from Kirsty

Michael Jamin:

.

Bryan Behar:

One of, one of my dear friends. But, you know, but I think, you know, for a lot of people that you know this, and I'm not singling him out, you know, that being a writer on television becomes one's identity. And, and it was for me for a long, long time, you know, you know, 25, 26 years, uh, of doing it. But it, you know, at some point you just have to read the writing on the wall, if that's, if that's where your career is at. And, and that's where I

Michael Jamin:

Are you still doing any other writing outside? Just for your, for personal reasons?

Bryan Behar:

Yeah, I'm doing all kinds of writing, but none of which is with the intent of

Michael Jamin:

Making a

Bryan Behar:

TV show, selling a pilot or, or getting back in, you know, on staff. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, you know, we've talked about this off camera a lot over the last, you know, five, six years just finding our own voices and, and finding other avenues to, to write on, you know, on my own. And so I'm like, I'm still writing a, you know, you know, a lot of essays. Um, I, you know, I, I had written I think 40 essays for the Huffington Post, um, over the past five years, another 20, 25 for Medium. And, and then I've moved my stuff over, uh, to sub stack. Um, so I recently wrote a, an article about growing up in Encino that was shared 10,000 times. Um, and I performed it at a, um, wow. I performed it at a spoken word, and I,

Michael Jamin:

And that was all from Sub, it got shared 10,000 times.

Bryan Behar:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, what? We'll plug it.

Bryan Behar:

Apparently. I know a lot about the Valley,

Michael Jamin:

But, and you have a lot of thought. We'll plug it again at the end, but I wanna make sure, might as well mention it now as well. What's your sub name?

Bryan Behar:

Oh, find You. I assume it's, it, it has to be Brian Behar. That's with Brian with a Y. But I can, I can check. I'm sorry. This is, this is not gonna make great television watching an old Jew look, look up his SubT. But, uh, I just, um, I just got O brian behar.com, but I just got two Twitter notifications saying that even though this, uh, episode hasn't aired, it's already been referred to as two Julie

Michael Jamin:

, Elon Musk's ahead of time.

Bryan Behar:

. He's,

Michael Jamin:

He's, he's, he's making it better. Um,

Bryan Behar:

Yeah, I've lost 10,000 followers in the last week, and I don't think I've gotten that much less funny. I, but uh, I mean, there's, there's just a Twitter at Trisha. Yeah. So, as you, but in, in reference to your other question, yeah. I'm still still posting a ton on Twitter and on, on Facebook. I, I wrote a novella, um, which is just a novel that I didn't have enough words to legally call a novel. Uh, I've been writing my articles, doing spoken words, so really doing everything but the stuff that used to pay me. And, uh, but, and loving it

Michael Jamin:

And loving it

Bryan Behar:

And loving it.

Michael Jamin:

And that's great. I wanna, so I wanna circle back to stuff that I wanna ask you, how you broke into the business. Although it's odd because I'm not sure how helpful it is for people since so much has changed, but we might as well talk

Bryan Behar:

About it. Yeah. I mean, sitcoms used to be on Kiddo Scopes when we were breaking in , you know, was it the Dumont network that gave me my

Michael Jamin:

First job? , yes.

Bryan Behar:

I mean, my story is sort of, sort of interesting for people who like ancient history, , um, you know, cuz in many ways I was an overnight success. I wrote one spec script and was on the staff of n and Stacy two months later. Um, but this was an overnight success that, that was seven years in the making, right? Um, between the time I graduated from college, brown University. Um,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, for applause. Nothing.

Bryan Behar:

Oh, for applause. Hold for salute. Thank you. Thank you. Everyone still holding, still holding. No one seems to, no one seems to care as much as, as I do, um, between graduation and, and, and even knowing at the time of graduation that I desperately wanted to be a sitcom writer, it was seven years between then and actually getting my first job Right. Um, for the first few years. It, it just felt as though it was not like a conceivable path in my mind. It's, it felt like that was for like the funny people. That's what other people did. Um, but I knew I wanted to write mm-hmm. , and that was something I discovered at Brown. Like, I, I went to Brown thinking I was gonna be a lawyer, like all dutiful Jewish boys trying to buy their mother's affection through grades, . Um, that didn't work. So I decided I might as well do something I actually am good at and something that I like. Uh, and I started to realize that like, wow, people seem to be laughing when I'm writing stuff for the school paper. So I knew I wanted to write comedy, but, uh, a job in advertising actually felt more, uh, conceivable to me. And, and as such, I went on that path and I, and I worked as a copywriter for seven years. And

Michael Jamin:

That was in New York, or out here

Bryan Behar:

On the west coast. Started in San Diego, then Los Angeles, and finished up in San Francisco.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Bryan Behar:

Um, and I was pretty good at it, and I was starting to actually get like a, a decent amount of success and traction, but all the while I could not shake the feeling that I really wanna write tv. I really wanna be a comedy writer. And if I don't try it soon, I'm gonna reach that point where I am too successful or too well paid at, at something I don't wanna do to ever take the chance. So, um, my old partner, uh, was a college friend Steve, and he said, Hey, I'm writing a specs script. And I was like, wait, you don't wanna be a TV writer? That's my dream. He's like, well, I'm doing it with another friend of ours. I said, well, tell her we're not doing it. And he and I wrote it over a facsimile machine while he was in LA and I was living in San Francisco. We were never even in the same room. Wow. And

Michael Jamin:

And he was an executive at the time?

Bryan Behar:

He was an executive. He frequently wore suspenders by choice.

Michael Jamin:

I'm sorry. He was a TV executive, right? He was at, was he at a, where was he? Wonder Brother abc. Where

Bryan Behar:

Was he? He was at Universal. He was at Columbia. He was at spelling and he was at nbc. Yeah. So he was well into that career, but he also, he was, you know, he wa he'd been to enough tapings and be like, wow, these people aren't that smart. Like, right. Like, I can write, I can write mediocre multi-campus, it comes as well as the next guy . So

Michael Jamin:

You guys teamed up, you wrote a spec and then what?

Bryan Behar:

And then we, we were on staff two months later. How

Michael Jamin:

Did you get into, how did you get into someone's hands? What,

Bryan Behar:

Uh, well, he was dating the woman who became our agent. That

Michael Jamin:

Helps.

Bryan Behar:

And so, so there is that

Michael Jamin:

,

Bryan Behar:

I mean, he had dated her earlier. They had met in the, uh, UTA mail room. Hi. So

Michael Jamin:

That's right. She, she was my, our agent at one point too.

Bryan Behar:

Yeah. Um, but like I will say to our credit, like, she was like, you have to send it to me. But we were, we thought that it was almost not kosher and it sent it to some other people who were gonna sign us Uhhuh. Um, so it was a good, but here's the thing, it was a good spec. Um, and I see why we got hired, but we took a year to write it. Yeah.

Because like, you know, we had unlimited time. There was no constraints of being on a show. And then we get to our first job and they say, oh, well we need our, your first script in a week. Right? Well, we had no, we had no system in place. We had never even been in the same city. Right. So we totally panicked, wrote it as quickly as possible, turned it in, and we're like, I think we did it. And we got called in by our boss, Michael Whitehorn is like, guys, you know, I have to say about this script. Like, it reads like a Marks Brothers movie. And I was like, well, thank you very much. I I appreciate. He's like, no, this is terrible. He goes, I love the March Brothers, but that's not how you write tv. He goes, there's no story, there's no setups.

It's just bouncing from joke to joke. Mm-hmm. . And it literally read like it felt writing it like it was done out of panic. Yeah. And he, and he told us he was gonna have to fire us. And this was like, you know, I finally was living my dream after years and years. He did. You already. And, and within like a month it was, it was all gonna go away. And I had quit my career in San, in San Francisco in advertising. Moved down here. I had just gotten married, you know, I always like to say, other than death, divorce, and space travel, I took on all of life's great stressors in one month. But did And did you get fired from it? We did not. What happened? Here's some advice for you young folk. Yeah. Cause I know young folks like this podcast. Um, they might, they might to laugh .

Um, he said, well, legally, I have to give you a second script. So you know how long ago it was when you had a two script guarantee? Yeah. He goes, so I might as well let you write it anyway cause I don't have to pay you. Right. So at that point, we, we had nothing to lose because we'd already suffered like all the indignity of being fired and everyone in the room knew it. So we kind of just slowed down and like pieced it together a lot more carefully and a lot more artfully. You know, we still, you know, we still had a ton of jokes, but it wasn't in this like, frantic style. And he, and he, to his credit, he said, this is so much better. I'm gonna, I'm taking it back. I'm gonna let you keep your job. And we ended up staying there for 24 episodes and we wrote four of them.

Mm-hmm. , and we were, you know, sort of off to the races. But it, you know, so much attention is given to getting that first job. And so little attention is given to how do you keep it? Yep. How do you get the second one? How do you go from jobs two to jobs three and four? And that's like, that's the stuff that I'm trying to help people with both online and in my class, which is anyone can kind of break in with like, you know, and I've heard you talk on your, your ticks about one hit wonders. Like, that's not what people should be aspiring to. They shouldn't be aspiring to, well I, I, you know, I sold this one movie, or I sold this one pilot. But how do you get on a show? How do you, how do you keep, how do you stay in the boss's good graces mm-hmm. , how do you make friends on a staff as a staff writer, um, without being the annoying staff writer who feels compelled to fill the air with your voice mm-hmm. because you think that everyone's judging you and keeping score. And these are, you know, again, these are all super valuable, but, you know, lessons that are kind of lost arts in my mind. Um,

Michael Jamin:

I totally agree. It's also, you know, when I, the first script that I wrote, this is even Withouts before I met my partner, it was a good script. It got me signed by Bro Cro and Webner. But I thought I would never write. It wasn't my first script. It was the first script. I guess it was good, but I, I thought I would never do it. How could I do it again? I don't, I I got lucky. I didn't know how, I didn't know what a story was. I just got lucky, you know?

Bryan Behar:

Yeah. I hundred percent felt that and felt that for a long time. I mean, when I was writing like samples, and again, I, I, I sort of jumped ahead and didn't mention that I was trying to write samples for all seven of those years.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

And I tried it with three or four different partners. I tried it on my own. Interesting. Um, and my real issue was I couldn't finish. You know, like people always say like, what, you know, what's the, what's your biggest advice? I'm like, finish a script. Yeah. Because I would belly ache at coffee shop houses all over Le Brea. Like, why am I not on staff? Oh, do you have a sample? Well, I've never finished one

Michael Jamin:

,

Bryan Behar:

You know, but like, how did people not know about me? I, I won't stop talking about it, but like, I think I, I, deep down I felt that if I were to finish a script and I don't get hired then like I no longer have a sustainable dream. Like as long as it was still out there, it was something that I could always like shoot for as a safety valve if I didn't like what I was doing in advertising or in life. But once you finish something, then it becomes tangible and people would read it. But if you don't do that, it it, there's no way for them to advance you. So, uh,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's so interesting you say about keeping the job I did. I definitely talk about that as well. It's like, how do you keep your job? And so I've seen, I've seen so many, and you must see more than me, but young staff, writers just flame out flame. They get, it's a shame cuz you get this job, but you're not ready for it. And then you're done.

Bryan Behar:

You, I've seen so many people get the first job and never get the second job.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

If you get the second job, there's a pretty good chance that you're in

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh.

Bryan Behar:

Um, now again, that was in the mid nineties when NBC alone had 18 sitcoms on its fall schedule. Yeah. I don't mean 18 sitcoms on all the network, I mean, just on one of the networks. And it's not like the others, you know, were only doing, you know, biopics you, you know, this was an, an era where there was a clear path forward where you could, you could rise through the ranks. You could go from show to show you could take, you know, good credits and get a better job on another show. Mm-hmm. . Um, I mean we used to always, always, before we knew you guys, we used to resent the hell out of you. We're like, you know, cause we, you know, we'd been on like 10 shows while you guys were on Just Shoot Me in King of the Hill. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

And it's like, wow, that is a, that is an entirely other way of doing it. Which is we, we would look at you and like, so you're telling me you can get on a really good show, stay there, do a good job, stay there for a long time, then get on a better show. Yeah. And do that for a long time. And that was, you know, and

Michael Jamin:

A lot of that is luck. Like, you know, we got on a good show and it went four seasons and you got on a show that didn't get, you know, four seasons and then you have to, and so yeah. A lot of that is, you know, that's just luck really. You know,

Bryan Behar:

A lot of it is. Yes. I mean, and yet, you know, like now I've had some opportunities to sort of reflect back on my career and there are situations like old Christine for example, which ran for six years, but we just ran for the first 13 episodes. Right. Um, you know, if I knew better how to play the game, um, or you know, not to take defeat so much to heart. Um, you know, and a lot of that had to do with like, sort of grappling with depression and a lot of things mm-hmm. . Um, but like I, you know, if I knew now, if I knew then what I know now, I think there might have been a few opportunities along the way where I could have kept a job for longer. But, um, nothing I can do about that now.

Michael Jamin:

Not that it, not that really makes a difference, but Do you, do you see any change between the way young staff writers are today? Like when you were doing one of your last few shows and the work when you were first starting off, do you see a change in their attitudes or their readiness or anything?

Bryan Behar:

No. Um, I'm, I'm trying to think. You know, because I, I was very fortunate on Fuller House that I was able to promote a ton of younger writers from within the system, uh, and, and was able to give them their first staff writing jobs. Right. Um, and like that was a little different than how I had done it, which was, you know, in my case. And I think maybe, maybe in your case, but I, I don't wanna speak for you. Like, certainly in our case it was you write samples and you break in as a staff writer. And I see more and more that the only way in for a lot of people is to take other jobs on a show in the production working as a PA and then working up to a writing's assistant or start as a writing assistant then becoming the, you know, the, you know, the writing supervisor or, or you know, like that that sort of path, uh, of promotion from within seems to be a lot more common. I know that didn't answer your, that didn't answer your question specifically about the writers themselves. No. They, they seem just like young writers mm-hmm. who were, you know, who were appreciative of the shot. It seems like they've all been maybe out in the cold a lot longer than we were Yeah. Uh, before they get their first break. And I think there's less certainty about what comes after because there just aren't as many sitcoms in general and multi cams in specific.

Michael Jamin:

I did a post about this just a couple days ago about, cuz someone said, well, you know, when are they gonna, are they gonna bring back multi-camera sick? They should bring them back. And I was like, you know, at some point, maybe in 10 or 15 years, it might almost be impossible because who

Bryan Behar:

It might be Im now.

Michael Jamin:

Well, why do you think

Bryan Behar:

So they, they exist Uhhuh, but they exist either for the very old or the very young mm-hmm. and there's been an entire, and I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you, but there's been an entire generation that has been raised without them.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Bryan Behar:

And which infuriates me because as a historian of the, of the genre, I look back as recently as a couple years ago, and in the previous, I think 60 years of sitcoms, the number one sitcom on the air, uh, in terms of total viewers had been a multicam in 59 of the six first 60 years.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

Um, and this even includes like, you know, what you might call like the heyday of the single camera era. And yes, there have been a few hits that have become sizable monsters like Modern Family and The Office, but the Office even more so, you know, once it became syndicated or once it went to Netflix. Um, but even during that, those shows having their heydays, the top rated sitcoms were still two and a Half Men and Big Bang Theory. You know, I mean, I am someone who strongly believes that, that the multi cam has always been more popular than the single cam. But, and maybe we've spoken about this before, but executives didn't think it was as cool to talk about it at their, you know, west side cocktail parties. And nobody wanted to be the one who developed, you know, a big embarrassing show with a laugh track. So they would just keep plowing ahead.

Michael Jamin:

But they always say they're looking for it because it costs less money.

Bryan Behar:

They always say it, but they never buy them. Yeah. And in fact, many times we would, Steve and I would sell a pilot to someone, um, as a single cam knowing that that's the only thing that those networks were putting on that year. And they say, no, no, no, we're really looking for multi cams. They would change our pilot to a Multicam and then pick it up and say, well, nobody's, there's nowhere, nowhere on the schedule where we can place us a multicam. Yeah. There's, wait a second. You made me do it. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Um, why do you

Bryan Behar:

Think, I'm not gonna say it would've gotten on anyway, so, but

Michael Jamin:

Why do you think they couldn't make it today? Do you think it's just a scheduling thing? Cause I had a different feeling about it.

Bryan Behar:

I think it's a scheduling thing on the one hand. Um, and I've read some articles recently about the difficulty in scheduling multi cams alongside single cams. There was an article just like this week in fact. But beyond that, I think it's, it is almost just like, why isn't there rock and roll on Top 40 radio because there hasn't been in 15 years, so there's nobody alive in that age demo who would listen to it.

Michael Jamin:

You think so? You think it's a viewership thing? Cause I don't, that's not what I do. I think the problem is, is I think it, when we jumped on a set, you know, when we first were on sitcoms, like, especially in Multicam, there's so much to learn about how to produce a multi-camera show that we weren't, we weren't even thinking of like running one in 10 15. Like, it was like, I don't know how to do this. Even when I'm working on it, I'm like, I wouldn't be, you couldn't put me in charge of this. And then, but now, but you, but you come out of a school. So like we were on Just Shoot Me and that came out of was on Frazier. So we kind of grew outta the Frazier School, which grew outta the cheer school. So there's like this column of like writers before you that you learn from.

Bryan Behar:

Yeah. It's like coming out of like the Bill Belichick coaches tree. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Very

Bryan Behar:

Similar. You if you're, if you're a, you know, a co-executive producer on, on one on Levian show, then you can be the executive producer on when you get a deal on your next show. Like, very common to put

Them,

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.

Now, like if you wanted to put a single, a multi-camera show on the air, where's the talent pool other than a bunch of old guys or people who've never done it before?

Bryan Behar:

Yeah. And, and, and like, you know, I sounded a little facetious earlier when I said it was the purview of the very old or the very young. But like, I mean that both in terms of the people who create it and the people who watch it, you know, it, it's either like pretty old fashioned, the last remnants of like CBS multi cams mm-hmm. or it's a Disney channel, Nickelodeon show. Right. Um, and what used to be like the mainstream of comedy doesn't exist that that really vast middle Yeah. Isn't there anymore in terms of, of multi cams, either in terms of like the space that's given on the schedule or in, in the age of the people who consume it. Yeah. Um, so I just think that people now think of it as old fashioned and kind of, there's a superficial, there's a fakeness to it.

Yeah. An artificiality, not superficial, an artificiality to it. Cuz now that they've seen enough comedies that are written, you know, written and produced like little movies mm-hmm. , you know, I think it's part of this, it's part of the movie of TV that's happening in the more general sense mm-hmm. that, you know, when you look at the streaming services and, and I, and I think me teaching a class on pilot writing and like of the, of the 15 kids that are writing pilots, 14 are writing one hours mm-hmm. one is writing a single camp, but of the one hours most are done in like, in genres of, you know, it's superheroes, it's science fiction, it's it's space and it's zombies. Yeah. You know, like all of which wouldn't have been on television when we were breaking in. Yeah. It was multi cam comedies and procedural dramas and that was it. It was, and it was like you could wrap your hands around it. It doesn't mean that it was like a glorious time in terms of, you know, this great diversity of product, but like from the perspective of people trying to, you know, like rise up through the hierarchy, it was a lot more tangible and easier to comprehend. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I was even thinking of shows, like even the shows were like, gimme a break or, or small Wonder. Like, those shows were also very comfortable, you know, or Punky Brewster, like they were comfortable shows they don't exist anymore.

Bryan Behar:

It feels like you're setting me up. But I am, I have long been of as much as I try to write edgy stuff and like you and I were on Will, I mean, you know. Yeah. Like we both have, you know, the bonafides of, you know, to write cool single camera stuff. But I've also been of the belief that the calm and sitcom often stands just as much for comfort as it does for comedy. Yeah. And all those shows you described, um, there was a comforting, soothing value. Now some of it has to do with, we were young at the time, some of it has to do with our own nostalgia for an easier time. But I mean, that's why I got into sitcoms in the first place because, you know, my family life was pretty rough. I didn't have a ton of friends, but I loved the Brady Bunch. Yeah. Um, and I found that even like, at a very, very young age, like I found that world incredibly soothing.

Michael Jamin:

But that's not a good example. Cause that was a single camera show.

Bryan Behar:

I know. But it, it doesn't feel like a single camera show. Um, and you're right. But, uh, I mean, but whether, but it was still, it was still a family sitcom. Yeah. Um, and like for instance, like when I, like when we were first offered the chance to write on Fuller House, not to run it, but just, you know, to be a co-executive producer in the first season, I had no interest mm-hmm. and I was like, I never saw Full House. Um, but two, but two things sort of changed my mind. One was my daughter, who was like maybe like 13, 14 at the time, and she's like, you're gonna take this meeting and you're not gonna fuck it up. She's like, this is gonna be huge. Because she, you know, she knew the power of the original Full house as a kid who sort of grew up on the reruns and like whatever, she was homesick from school, we would tape her five episodes of the Brady Bunch and five episodes of, um, full House.

It seemed easier than actually parenting or offering her medicine. Um, but that's neither hit nor the other. But the other thing was realizing like, okay, I don't know Full House, but I sure know the Brady Bunch. And that full house served the exact same function for kids who were 10 years younger than me as the Brady Bunch did in my life. And I'm like, oh, I know what that felt like to Yeah. I know what it felt like to be that age and, and want to be soothed by a TV show and wanna feel like you're part of a, you know, a surrogate family on the air. And, and that that really helped, helped me as a way in

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

So realize is that kind of show

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's an interesting, it really is an interesting time for writers. What are you, what are you, how are you advising your students to break in then? What are you telling them?

Bryan Behar:

Well, I try not to spend as much time on the how to break in mm-hmm. as to give them the tools that might open the door and might help them. And, and, and I, you know what, what I do, again, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of evading the question by design. Um, like for instance, I, I run my classes as if they were a writer's room. I push all the tables together. We sit around one big table with me at the front, like a big mock, just like the old days. Yeah. At one 20th. At one 20th. The salary. Right. Of, of, but like, I want them to get used to what it, you know, what it feels like to, you know, pitch amongst their peers what it feels like to, you know, offer an idea or a joke to somebody at the head of the table.

So like, as far as teaching them the craft, I think I'm doing a pretty good job. I don't know that I have as much wisdom when it comes to how does one break in these days. Right. Um, I alluded to in a teeny bit earlier, which is one of the things I will say is do not turn down any job on a television show mm-hmm. , because that has become more and more the only way in is to rise through the ranks. It, it is entirely a function of who, you know, so many of the jobs come from the people doing, you know, the non-writing jobs that, you know, that lead into it.

Michael Jamin:

But you also have to be ready. It's not, it's not enough to know somebody. Your script has to, you have to know how to write

Bryan Behar:

Well. Yeah. I don't know that you're gonna get those writing assistant jobs or those pa jobs even without a script. So, I mean, you have to have a great script now just to get those jobs.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. I wasn't aware of

Bryan Behar:

That. I think you do. I've

Michael Jamin:

Never, I've never read any, I've never asked a pa or write assistant to read their, I'd rather not read their script.

Bryan Behar:

Yeah, no, I, I, I mean, I'm of the, I'm of the, I'm the same way. I just would rather assume that they, that they're funny. Right. Uh, you know, after the interview, but like you, I, again, since I wasn't running the show, um, when we started out, I don't know if they had spec scripts originally. Right. I inherited so many of them, you know, so, but you know, but what I tell them is like, you know, you're sitting there behind the keyboards. Like, nobody wants you to be the one pitching jokes all day long, but like, pick your battles. Like, you know, I've seen, I've seen writing assistants like win a job from pitching a, you know, lobbying a giant joke out of the corner of the room when no one's expecting it. Right. You know, and in some ways, like the pressure's off. No one is expecting you to save the day.

Mm-hmm. . Um, and I always say like, if you really need to be funny, be funny at lunch, you know, like when you're just like, cuz then you were, if you're sitting around one table at lunch, you're all just people. There's not that same hierarchy. Right. People. And then a year from now when we say, oh, we need a staff writer, we were far more likely to say like, oh, so and so made me laugh, you know, you know, while I was eating my gato grill. Then, uh, you know, then have to read a stack of scripts. You know, you know, so like I say, like you can break it as a staff writer, the traditional way you can get hired, um, at, in another type of job. Like we've just been talking about within the production. And then there's all these writing programs that mm-hmm.

Things still exist, even though Warner Brothers a few weeks ago said they were canceling the Warner program. They brought it back. They brought it back. Okay. Yeah. That's like, that is like the third way. And that, that's still a valid and beyond that, I don't really know how, I know people all wanna be discovered. Everyone, everyone wants to like write a pilot that gets bought by a streamer mm-hmm. and they wanna be a celebrity showrun. Right. And I don't know, I don't know that that exists, but it probably exists just enough that everyone thinks they can do it. Yeah. Like for instance, like I'm teaching at Chapman, which is a fabulous program. It like barely existed 20 years ago, and now it's like the fourth film school in the country according to the, you know, the most recent rankings. And like, their big claim to fame is the two brothers who created Stranger Things like in their twenties. Right. Like out of nowhere, I think they had one credit. And the next thing you know, they have a show that's the biggest show on all television in all mediums. Right. Streamer, cable pay, cable, anything. And I forgot broadcast that used to be a thing that we cared about. Um, but like, everyone's like, well, the Duffer Brothers did it. Why can't I create some, some genre of sci-fi? And it's like, you can possibly, but that's again, that's the exception. Yeah. What's gonna happen if you don't,

Michael Jamin:

I think that's exactly right. I think that's, that's the exception. It's, and it's such a remarkable exception that the media picks up on it and talks about it because it's what an unusual story. And then therefore people think, oh, that's how you do it. You know,

Bryan Behar:

And I guess that's, I mean, if we really were being fair, there's always been that media story of the V kid, you know mm-hmm. 20 years ago it was Josh Schwartz, he's, he's 11 years old and he created the oc Yeah. You know, there's always, you know, there's always someone who got, you know, I think James L. Brooks was one of them, you know? Right. Like, there's always somebody who in their twenties gets a show on the air and ruin it for everybody else. Mm-hmm. . But, but, but I mean, by ruin it by everybody else is it creates this illusion that all you need to do is sell a pilot, not learn how to write tv.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I, you know, I remember when we were first signed, or when I, yeah, I guess it was with Sheer signed and, um, our agent said, oh, oh, no, no. She said it to me before, before I was with Sheer. She said, you know, I signed one new baby writer a year. You're the baby writer. In three years you're gonna be running your own show. And, and I, and I, I, I smiled very play. Oh, that's great. And then after I hung up, I was seriously panicked. I was like, run my own show. I, I, I don't even know if I can write another script. Like that's the last thing I wanna do is run our own show.

Bryan Behar:

Of course. Now here's something I'm gonna admit to you that you're, you're gonna laugh at me. And, and, and That's okay. It would not be the first time. Like Steve, and, and, and I can't talk too much about it because it's part of ongoing litigation, some of the specifics of this. But Steve and I were offered the opportunity to run Fuller House, uh, beginning season four.

Michael Jamin:

Mm-hmm. .

Bryan Behar:

Um, so we had been doing this for I think 22 years. I was like 53 years old, 52 years old. And I said no, because of the thought of running a show, even with 22 years experience, even at 52 years old, seemed inconceivable to me. Yeah. Now, you know, I have a history of severe panic disorder and a lot of other things that, that contribute to that. And then they came back and offered it to us again. They're like, no, no, we, we thought about someone else, it's you. And we said no again, um, because no, now we're, we're in a kind of an extreme case, but part of it was a function of that ship had sailed in my mind mm-hmm. as far as like being a possibility. Like when you, when you're hitting your, your, you know, your your early to mid fifties and you've not run a show, I think in it's a, it's a, it is a fair assumption to say that the business doesn't see you that way.

Mm-hmm. , like you're, you know, Steve and I were very competent number twos and very competent number threes mm-hmm. . Um, but the thought of actually like taking on the big chair still seemed like something that like engendered panic. Yeah. And, and then, you know what? We did it and I loved it and I, I loved doing it. I was eager to do it again. Um, you know, we did 30, 31 episodes, uh, under our helm and like started to take on responsibilities and facets that I'd never, ever even thought about. Right. It was great. So, and I, so even though I never got to do it another time or another time yet, I'm thrilled that I was able to get past that fear because it really was like the sort of the last fear that was out there for me.

Michael Jamin:

But the thing is, when people say that, when people say, I wanna run my own show, and I said, do you, you don't even know what a Showrun does. Like why would you, like, why, why are you signing up for a job? You don't even know what the job entails.

Bryan Behar:

Well, because they've seen Matt Wener give an interview at the end of Madman or Vince Gilligan, the end of Breaking Bad. And they know that like, you know, they know what their salaries are and they know their celebrities. Yeah. You know, and they get good, you know, they get good tables at Mr. Chap. I mean, I don't know, but like, I didn't know what his, there was no such thing as a celebrity Showrun when we were breaking in. Like there were, yes, there were successful people. You know, like I was very aware who created Seinfeld and friends and who created Cheers and what the back ends were. Right. But that thing where, and it really is kind of a function of premium tv, like sort of the Post Sopranos one hour world, you know, the Mad Men, Sopranos, breaking beds, the Shield, the Wire Deadwood, like those have really kind of deified the one hour show runner as like pop culture celebrities.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

And they've, they've sort of become the new film directors. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Bryan Behar:

So everybody wants that.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Bryan Behar:

And again, like if you see the Duffer Brothers do it, you know, at, at 28 years old or however, however young they were, um, people are, people rightly do ask Why not us? Mm-hmm. . But again, like I had been doing TV for 22 or 23 years before I took over that show and still had no conception of what running a show entailed. Yeah. In terms of just the sheer enormity of the pressure of the responsibility. And that was with two of us, and that was with two of us dividing the task. I had no idea how someone does that on their own. Yeah. Cause even with two people that felt like, like, like a, her her lay super human effort. Yep. You know, and I'm sure you found the same thing, like, um, there's so many different, you're making a decision all day long, every day at a furious pace. Yep. And yet there's nothing like it. Like it was such, it was, you know, and I don't mean like just from like a, the standpoint of like, I felt powerful, but like, there were like, having such a sense of purpose every day was fantastic. Uhhuh,

You know, overcoming fears and like developing like a skill like that I didn't even know I needed to possess. Like, that was interesting. Yeah. You know, so I feel, I mean, it certainly helps me as a teacher because if I had never run a show, I'd feel like a little bit like a fraud offering notes and like fixing scripts and mm-hmm. having now having done it, like at, I'm not gonna say the highest levels, but a high level. Right. Um, you know, I feel like far more qualified to be the one teaching people. Cause I feel like I've done at least the equivalent of that in, in tv.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It, it's, it's interesting because even as I, before I started doing, like talking on social media, I was like, well, you know who, I'm not Vince Gilligan, I'm not Chuck Lori, I'm not Steve Levitan. I'm not, I'm not the highest there is, you know, um, what,

Bryan Behar:

Well, two things come to mind. Number one, don't sell yourself short because you're still super high within, you're still super high within the, you know, the pecking order. Like, once you take out those, those few brand names, right. You've done it. You've, you've run multiple shows. You've run multiple good shows and people liked working for you. And, uh, you know, like the, the job we did together on, on Glen Martin was a pleasure. And, uh, you know, that's probably the closest I ever felt to like really writing in my own voice Yeah. And kind of just letting go and not being self-conscious and just writing whatever felt silly or funny. Right. So that's one thing you've done. But the other thing where I think you have a leg up in fact, is what was the last time Chuck Laurie or Steve Leviton had to really think about what they were gonna do next and plot accordingly. You know, like both of them just go to CS and say, get me a get me, you know, get me a show on Hulu. And they do. Like, but that's not like how people in real, in real life behave.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I, that's one I talked about with my wife. She goes, well, yeah, but that, those are the superstars you can talk to. You can speak to what does it mean to be a working writer who's not a superstar? Who's

Bryan Behar:

That's, that's a hundred percent right. It's a little insulting that our wives know about people who are superstars and they, they tend to usually be taller, um, Who had a here, but like, um, I don't, I don't know that Steve Levitator or Chuck Laurie or you know, or Larry David is gonna speak as, you know, as succinctly or as I impactfully as you do about, you know, the like day to day mechanics of breaking in, building a career, keeping a job. And those are, you know, those are the things that I talk about day to day. And, and now I've moved on to the third, you know, the third thing, which is how do I build like a sort of a purposeful life outside of the writer's room, right. And, and try to use the skills that I developed or the knowledge that I accrued and either help others or, you know, game satisfaction for myself. And I'm, you know, trying really hard to still do both without, you know, the, you know, the old crutches that I used to have, which is, you know, getting laughs from a, from a gaggle of Jews,

Michael Jamin:

It's so,

Bryan Behar:

And JB

Michael Jamin:

N JB, we, um, you know, I, when people, they'll comment on social media, sometimes I'll, I'll make a post and then I guess people are, I dunno if they're being argumentative or just trying to impress me or whatever, but they'll say, yeah, but Quentin Tarantino says, and I'm like, Quentin Tarantino is anybody just, is anyone mistaking you for Quentin Tarantino ? Yeah. No, I mean, have his career,

Bryan Behar:

But I mean, but they're, they're, I mean, it's beyond annoying, but that's always been the case. I remember like my, one of my first or second jobs running into like, the wife of someone I went to college with, and she's like, why aren't you on Seinfeld or South Park? That's what we watch. Yeah. You don't watch the shows you're on. It's like, okay, first of all, like, you're a viewer. You didn't create either of those shows unless you're, unless you change your name to Matt Stone. Like you're not those people. So like, pipe down a little. I said, secondly, you have to think about this. Like, it's the nba, like, hey, like I'm coming out of college, I wanna be on the Lakers. Who gives a fuck what you want? You were drafted by the Pelicans. Like, like, we don't get to choose where we write.

Yeah. Like, oh, Tarantino said like, okay, you're not Tarantino. Like, trust me, I'm doing better than you are. So like , you know, I mean, yes. But that, I mean, that's gone on forever and ever. I'll tell you a story. My grandmother re she rested me. She just, she passed away a year ago and she ended up being, she lived in 99 years and eight months and ended up dying as a very kind person for like the first 95 years. She wasn't Right. And like, she would admit that, and like, we had no relationship and like on, I, I had been on four jobs at the time. Um, and on all four she told me how much she didn't like the show. I was on . So she invited Beth and I out for dinner. I hope it wasn't Glen Martin . No, no, no, no, no. That would've been later that she didn't like, okay, what's, she's like, who watches Claymation ?

Why is there a laugh track? Scooby . But she, so she invites Beth and I have to dinner with her and her, her boyfriend. Um, and she's like, oh, that show that Then Stacy, I hated that show. And I'm like, oh, well I'm on a different show now. Oh, I don't like that show either. Okay. And I literally said, grandma, like I, I'm happy to tell you that before I, right before I came to dinner today, I came, I'm coming directly from a meeting. I had just had a meeting on Frazier. Uhhuh. Now Frazier at the time had just won the me for Best comedy five years in a row. Right. Anything's gonna oppress her. And she goes, Ugh. She goes, I hate that show. That's a dumb show, . So I say to myself, okay, and I turn to Beth, like, she can see that I'm soothing, and Beth and I are Huling and I'm like, the woman doesn't know anything about television.

She's an older, she's an older Jewish woman from a different era. She's not gonna like anything you do. She, she knows nothing about television. I was like, you're right. That's why would I get myself upset? She knows nothing. And then she says, why don't you write something like David Kelly mm-hmm. . And then the boyfriend says, it's David E. Kelly. And then I realized, no, she knew a tremendous amount about television shouldn't . Like she knew chapter in verse, everything that he had written from Allie McBeal to picket fences. She just didn't like what I was doing. Right. , I don't remember, I don't remember how we got to this, but Oh, annoying people telling us our credits aren't good enough. Right. It's like, yeah. Like, I remember, I remember when people were on Raymond for the, you know, all nine years, and I'd be like, these lucky SAPs, like had, they haven't had to go through anything that we've gone through.

They got one job. They had a, they had to go to a few movie nights on a Sunday with Phil Rosenthal never eat dinner there. Yeah. And to get nine years of fat paychecks. And that's just not, that wasn't our experience, but our experience certainly prepared us for more kinds of experiences. And I, and it certainly behooved me, I believe when it, when it was time to run a show, you know, I definitely had far more of an awareness of what I wanted a room to feel like mm-hmm. , uh, what I wanted it not to feel like specifically. Yeah. Uh, you know, based on having had so many different kinds of experiences. And that's, that's like 0.2 that I always tell the kids, which is crying not to extrapolate from any one experience because it's just one experience. Right. Like when I was on Ned and Stacy and he didn't like our script and all the writers were bullies in the room, you know, and like Charlie Kaufman was over in the corner, like rocking back and forth cause they were so mean to him, and he'd already being John Malcolm.

And I'm like, so they're really not gonna be nice to us. He had already written John Malcolm at that point already written John Malcolm. So he was like leaving the room to get called. Like, Michael Stip is on the line for you. You know, like, wow, you know, spike Jones is on the line. Um, and they're still being mean to him because he was shy and he was reserved. And it was, you know, it was the late nineties multi camera room where if you're not like a total misogynistic chauvinistic prick, you don't get to move up or be heard. Right. Or that's how it felt on that show. But then I was like, okay, but then my next job wasn't like that. Um, so I, I always try to impress upon people, like, the key is to have enough experiences such that no one experience becomes definitive in your mind because every show is different.

Right. You know, like Glen Martin being the perfect example. I mean, but that was fun. You had fun, man. And, and you know, I don't tell you enough, but I should, you guys saved my life. You know, I don't wanna make this a depressing podcast, but, um, your, your listeners should know that Michael and, and his partner Seavert hired me less than two weeks after my father took his own life. I thought, I thought it was during, but okay. You remember it better than I, it was literally right before. Okay. Like, I would stay in bed and cry all day, and they're like, you have a meeting on a, on a, on a Claymation show, and then the tears are really flowing. And then it was like, oh my God, you thought the suicide was bad, Noah. But like, I mean, but, but for me to have a place to go mm-hmm.

And a place to laugh all day and a sense of purpose. And the second we would finish, I would go back into my office or into my car and cry because I literally was like so bereft and like searching for like answers. But like, the fact that eight hours a day you guys gave me a place to laugh and to like, you know, feel good about myself was like, it's a gift. I can never repay you. I mean, I feel like I'm repay you a little doing your podcast, but I dunno that I could, I dunno, that I could ever fully repay you. But it was, you know, like it was such a meaningful thing that you offered me.

Michael Jamin:

But it was, it was actually very mutual because you, you know, you, we hired you and then you guys turned in your, your script. It's like, I'm like, oh God, thank God they can write . That's a big deal. You don't assume,

Bryan Behar:

How would you know? At the time you were just like, well, they said yes to a Claymation show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I have my doubts. They said yes to this job right now. I have my doubts about them

Bryan Behar:

. And we were like, we were like, well, we have to take, I mean, these guys are, you know, these were the guys from King of the Hill. And they're like, why are, then we get there. You're like, why are you here, , we know why we're taking it. We wanted to run a show.

Michael Jamin:

But that was, uh, boy, oh boy. Yeah. That was a fun show.

Bryan Behar:

But man, that was, that was fun. I would've done that for, I would've done that for years and years. But

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that was the, that was the plan. But no one else Nick had,

Bryan Behar:

Once again, it was not up to us.

Michael Jamin:

It was the par, it was the, that Christian Parents Association canceled us. They like, you know, and see, used to describe it, it was, this is the babysitting channel and, but at at eight o'clock, the baby channel turns the dick at night. But no one tells, no one told the parents watching.

Bryan Behar:

No, no. Because why would you, why would you think that the show puppets, you know, at a talking dog and you know, like all the, all all the hallmarks of what you're getting during the day, , you know, plus a laugh track, you

Michael Jamin:

Know, , they were shocked.

Bryan Behar:

You know, they were shocked to see Michael Eiser making television. I

Michael Jamin:

Think ,

Bryan Behar:

Isn't that the guy who created the Bazooka Joe movie?

Michael Jamin:

. Oh, we had some laughs though. But what we came on some really crazy stories on that show. Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

I mean, I mean, it should have been far more famous. If it wa if it was just, if it, I always thought, and again, you guys disagreed, I think, but it didn't matter because we all inherited the show Yeah. From, from other people. But like, I was strongly of the belief that a Claymation show would never work. Um, and if it had been a regular animated, animated show, I thought it would've worked really well. And it might have run for a long

Michael Jamin:

Time. I think only would've worked on a different network

Bryan Behar:

Though. And on a different network. Yeah. And maybe with some different actors and, and different writers. Why

Michael Jamin:

You bothered, I always like the claim, my problem with it. And then we go, well, we'll wrap up, we're going over here. But my problem with it wasn't, I liked the Claymation, I just didn't like the, the mouths being animated. The mouths were done by on computer. And to me, whenever we got slick on that show, whenever we did computer special effects, I didn't like that. I thought everything should be practical.

Bryan Behar:

I understand that. I used to, I, I forgot how I articulated it at the time, but it was very, it was very succinct, but it was like, it was a show for nobody.

Michael Jamin:

, it was a show for TV writers is what it was.

Bryan Behar:

Well, but by which I mean like, if you were over 12, you were never going to watch a Claymation show. But

Michael Jamin:

Why would you watch that as opposed to animation? It's the same thing.

Bryan Behar:

It's not the same thing. I swear to you, Uhhuh, it is not the same thing. There's a reason that Bob's, that Bob's Burgers that started the exact same time is, is only in its halfway point now. Yes. I know. We've, and we've been done for a decade.

Michael Jamin:

Um,

Bryan Behar:

I where do you the, something about puppets means that nobody over 12 is gonna watch and nobody under 12 was allowed to watch because it was so filthy. Yeah. So we, it was like the, it was the world's worst Venn diagram. like, like our sweet spot where like couldn't find each other.

Michael Jamin:

But, but TV we liked writing it cuz we just did whatever it was like it

Bryan Behar:

Was Oh my God, the process of writing It was genius. Yeah. I've never laughed harder. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

. And,

Bryan Behar:

And, and, and then I would see it and it was still funny, but I also knew that it had kind of a limited Yeah. Limited appeal certainly on Nick at night, where you don't go for original material like that doesn't exist. Yeah. Um, but like, I've had experiences where I've been on shows and I'm not gonna give names where we would laugh all day long, boy. And we have fun in those rooms that you'd watch the show, you're like, oh, were we laughing about,

You know, it was okay. Those were rooms that were so fun and so funny. And then I've been on shows some with you Uhhuh, um, with it involved like an Australian dog, Uhhuh were so tv and I love Zuckerman and I love the show and it's a miracle that it turned out because the day to day was so pedantic it was a grind. Yeah. It, it was like being on like the world's hardest higher level philosophy class. Like, you know, like, you know, con to the early years. Yeah. And you're like, I don't know how this ends up. I don't know how this discussion ends up as a com as like a beloved comedy, but it did, um, same with Andy Richter. Andy Richter was just silence and watching Victor Fresco type. Oh. And you know, and then you're, and then you watch the show and you're like, wow. Somehow this went from like, you know, a torturous beginning to a hilarious show. And then a lot of multi cams have been the opposite. Yeah. Super funny rooms. Kind of funny shows.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

So you never like, so those people like, you know, what's your favorite show? Like no, there's something great about all of them.

Michael Jamin:

People don't understand that as well. Sometimes like, you know, they think all this crappy, like, it's hard to make even bad television. It's really, we're all trying hard.

Bryan Behar:

It's harder.

Michael Jamin:

Uh,

Bryan Behar:

I mean, I, yes. I'm not gonna name that. I'm not gonna name names, but like, I've been on so many multi cams that are like impossible. Yeah. Um, and especially multi cams. Like, I feel like in single Cam you can always fake it with, you know, with some funny music and clever editing, but there's no faking a bad multi cam. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's true.

Bryan Behar:

If there's no laughter in front of the audience, there's no laughter. Yeah. Yeah. Now I've worked with one show runner who didn't care whether it was actually funny because the show was so popular and loved anyway, that it didn't matter whether the jokes actually were funny because he knew they were gonna get laughs anyway. Right. So that's a, that's a different thing, but like most shows don't have that kind of good will going into them. But a multicam that's, that's not, not firing and that you're having to like, throw out every night after run through and essentially start again.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Bryan Behar:

I don't think I can do that again. I'm, uh,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you have to be young for that.

Bryan Behar:

I'm taking, I'm gonna take my zero savings and move on

Michael Jamin:

. I'm taking my chips off my chip off the table,

Bryan Behar:

My chip off the table. I still have a, still living off of a couple Israeli war bombs

Michael Jamin:

Bryan Behar:

With my bar mitzvah and I'll be Right. But like, I mean, that's a hard life. That is a young person's life. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. People don't realize the hours on a multi camera can be really hard. Really hard.

Bryan Behar:

And I also didn't really realize that a lot of the, I alluded to it earlier, the, the kind of chauvinism and bro frat culture mm-hmm. . That, that was really more, I mean, I know it also, you know, you got it on Scrubs and you got it on a bunch of other shows. I'm not gonna name like Scrubs, uh, but like, you know, but, but that really was kind of a function of Multicam culture. Mm-hmm. of, we haven't talked about Eric Weinberg the celebrity rapist yet, but

Michael Jamin:

We haven't, we have not talked about it. That's that be another, another episode. I said that's

Bryan Behar:

A whole nother, that's, that's where you and I saw the mystery, but like, no, but like, you know, there was an article about that, a really definitive article last week in the Hollywood Reporter. And what I found most interesting was not, I mean, the rapes were so abhorrent and the sexual abuse he inflicted on people, even in writer's rooms was so unbelievably despicable. But what was really fascinating was the stuff that like he just got away with and they went show to show and talked about the things he did to women on each show in the writer's room. That, and what he got away with because it was, Hey, it's the early two thousands and this is how a room has gotta be. And that I don't miss.

Michael Jamin:

But we, well we were, you and I worked with him honestly for I think two weeks. It was not a long time on Wilford and I, I didn't see any of that. I really didn't say any of that. It was, no, it was only two weeks, I think. And

Bryan Behar:

I don't think I was even there. I think I came, I joined the staff. I only saw him one day when he came and turned in a a turned in a script. He

Michael Jamin:

Might have done a, yeah, he may have done a free, he probably wasn't safe. He probably just did a freelance. So it was literally two weeks when he was there.

Bryan Behar:

But I had always heard stories not about rape obviously, and not about abuse, but just like jerky room behavior. Mm-hmm. and like frat guy, bro. Kind of Bullying and like that kind and like, again, it was not limited to him, but he was sort of indicative of what passed for like room life then. Right, right. And I do think, and like, you know, as much as people our age frequently will complain about like new, the new, whoa, Hollywood and rooms are so this and, you know, sensitive now, like no, they're so much better than they used to be. Mm-hmm. because it's not based on this like, abusive behavior. There's far greater representation within the rooms, within the stories you're telling and like, and like what you're seeing on screen. Um, I think, I think that's only better, you know, I think it's better. Like, you know, that all of our kids go to schools where, you know, they talk about sensitivity and, and like being a good person versus what we grew up with, which is like, don't be so sensitive. Stop crying, Brian.

Michael Jamin:

Well, Brian, I, I can't thank you. This is a fun chat, man.

Bryan Behar:

Thank you so much for having me. I mean, it's always a pleasure to talk to. It's

Michael Jamin:

Always fun, but I wanna find, make sure, make sure people can follow. What's your Twitter handbook? Cause I know you got a big Twitter following it. It is for

Bryan Behar:

Now, at least for now. I'm, I'm, I'm still over 200,000, which is not bad for just like a But

Michael Jamin:

You were over 300,000 at one point.

Bryan Behar:

Um, no, that was you at TikTok. Um, but, uh, , but Mazel Tom. No, but I, I'm, uh, I think I'm at 206,000, which, you know, for a guy who's just like, you know, nobody follows me because I'm a celebrity. They just like, I literally have taken kind of a lunch, a lunch pale approach, and I just tweet every day. So you can reach, see me at, uh, @BrianBehar. You haven't even made fun of me for being Turkish. No, I have not. Old Sephardic. I don't know, maybe that's the new you.

Michael Jamin:

Well, we're gonna, we'll translate this

Bryan Behar:

. I thought we were gonna translate this into ancient Turkish in No, I thought you were gonna start out with, you know, here, we're live from downtown Anca . This was great. You crack me up, you make me feel funnier. Um, and I've, I've been recommending your, uh, your TikTok uh, tutorials to all my students. A lot of them who I mentioned this to today had in fact seen them and, and have benefited from them. So that's nice. Uh, yeah. Keep doing what you're doing. I, I, I mean, you, you just took off and you really found a, a nice, a nice niche.

Michael Jamin:

It's surprising.

Bryan Behar:

It's surprising. Yeah. I hope it, I hope it sells your book because that's, uh, mean, but I mean, you're doing great stuff. I, I'm sorry I didn't see your, your, your your performance, but I will the next time.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll, I should, I'll give it a plug, but I wanna make sure I, I get your plugs also your sub stack. What's, what's the URL for that? Again,

Bryan Behar:

I think that's just my name as well. Uh, it's beder dott stack.com. And

Michael Jamin:

You have, you have so many.

Bryan Behar:

You also find by any of my back articles on, uh, huffington post.com or medium.com by typing in my, the, uh, the name I just gave you.

Michael Jamin:

Go follow Brian, everyone.

Bryan Behar:

He's a real hoo. He's

Michael Jamin:

A oh, he's a hoo. Um, and, and that's it. Remember to sign up. Let me, I plug, this is where I plug everything. I do sign up for my free [email protected] slash watchlist where I give away tips every take

Bryan Behar:

You over the world

Michael Jamin:

Got every Friday I take over the world. And then, of course, if you wanna see me tour on with my show, if you're whatever city you're in, go to michael jam.com/upcoming or touring. Brian, we just got back from Boston.

Bryan Behar:

You're like a Speedwagon. This is Fanta . Why don't I get hired? I have all the current reference

Michael Jamin:

have, all my references are fresh. Uh, yeah. Michael jam.com/upcoming. And, uh, and that's it. You can go, you check up, uh, you follow me on, on Instagram and, and TikTok at Michael Jamin, writer and Facebook, if you know what Facebook is, if anyone knows what that is. All right, everyone. Brian, thank you again so much for joining me. And, and don't go anywhere. I'm

Bryan Behar:

Thanks.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep Writing.

Greg Thompson is a writer-producer known for Bob's Burgers, Glenn Martin D.D.S., and King of The Hill.

Greg Thompson on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0860188/

Greg Thompson on Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregthomp

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Greg Thompson:

Try to pay attention to the voices of the show. Know the show. Watch, watch every episode. Um, you know, when we were hired on King of the Hill, I, I'd watched King of the Hill, but I hadn't seen everything. But, you know, I methodically started plowing through hundreds of episodes at that point. I think maybe 200 episodes had happened by the time we, we joined it. So, and that's just kind of an education and you internalize the voices of the characters and, and it, it helps you. It helps you know what to pitch. You're

Michael Jamin:

Listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jen.

Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin and I got another special guest today. This is my old friend. I'm gonna, this is my friend Greg Thompson, and I'm gonna give you a proper introduction, Greg. So sit down, just relax. Let me just talk to the people for a second. Um, so Greg is a very successful TV writer and he started on bunk, a show called Bunk Bread Brothers. We're gonna run through some of, through some of the credits. I'm heard of Bunk Bread Brothers, then fired up, which was interesting. This was the heyday of nbc. This was when, uh, the character she lived instead of a clock. She was, she was a church mouse, wasn't she? Greg

Greg Thompson:

. Yeah, she was a church Mass

Michael Jamin:

Who

Greg Thompson:

Is second, second season. She moved into a shoe, uh,

Michael Jamin:

.

Greg Thompson:

It was Sharon Lawrence with, uh, Leah Remedy.

Michael Jamin:

Ah, Sharon Lawrence with Leah Remedy. This was back in the heyday of NBC shows like, uh, musty tv. And then a show called, I'm gonna run through some of your credits. Maggie, big Wolf on campus, then one of your bigger credits. 30, uh, third Rock from the Sun. Great show, then Grounded for Life. Another great show. Everyone hates Chris. Everybody hates Chris. Everybody hates Chris. Another great show. I'm in Hell. We're gonna talk about that. King of the Hill. You were there for many years. Glen Martin, dds. I never heard of that one, but I was involved in it. then Now, most recently you were writer, what are you executive, co-executive producer on Bob's Bergs.

Greg Thompson:

So I, I'm, I'm down to consulting producer. Technically I was we'll talk, I was co exec. I was actually executive, I was actually executive producer to be, to be most technical. Well, yeah, we all got promoted up to executive producer after a

Michael Jamin:

Certain And what happened? Why did you get bounced down to co exec? I mean, a consulting producer.

Greg Thompson:

I decided to rank fewer, fewer days a week. So I, I've, I've, am I, do you still want me on the show?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I'm, now I'm jealous of you. How many days a week are you working?

Greg Thompson:

I only work two days.

Michael Jamin:

Oh. And of those two days, how many days are you really working? ?

Greg Thompson:

I don't know. Probably four. Cuz it filters into other days and

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Greg Thompson:

It does over it also. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

We're gonna talk about that. But I wanna get into the beginning, Greg. Cause I, I, I, so we met in the Warner Brothers Writers Program, writers workshop, or whatever it was called. Yeah, we did. And you were, were supposed to be you and your partner. Our Abrams were supposed to be the competition that me and Seavert were facing. And, but very quickly we realized we weren't, we weren't gonna, we weren't gonna make good enemies, friends and love.

But, but I gotta say, Greg, you've always been, and I know I've never, probably never said this to you personally, but you were, it may seem odd since we don't talk that often, but you were definitely one of my closer friends, closest friends in the industry, because I always feel like I, I feel like we're not in competition. I can always be, I can confide in you to tell you what's going on with my career. I never feel like I'm gonna get stabbed in the back. You always got my back. I got your back. So you, you've always been a great friend. And that's why as I thank, thank you for doing the show and helping everyone Oh, tell your story.

Greg Thompson:

You're, you're very welcome. You, of course, it's of course it's mutual. Um, and I'll just say at the Radcliffe or at the, uh, pardon me, the Writer's Warner Brothers Writer's Workshop, um, I was, uh, so intimidated by you and Seavert. I, uh, you like you, we were kind of sited. We were seated in kind of a big o and you were, you guys were like across the room and you already, you already had credit. You had a credit on Lois and Clark, which was like, you know, incredibly impressive. We didn't have credits.

Michael Jamin:

That's what you were, that's what you're, because there was no other reason to be intimidated by us. So we never said anything like, I

Greg Thompson:

Think, I don't know, you just, you looked, you looked the right part. Sea had this kind of scowl on his face all the time, which, which was very untrue to his personality. But he just looked, uh, super serious. Like, like he

Michael Jamin:

Was

Greg Thompson:

Interesting figuring it all out.

Michael Jamin:

Turns out neither of us. It was a prestigious program. And, and it didn't help either of us. It didn't help. It definitely didn't help. But it didn't help you did it

Greg Thompson:

Other than Well, it, it did get us, it did lead us to an agent, which then, which then led us to our first job. So it actually did help us, even though the Warner Brothers, the studio was not interested in hiring us,

Michael Jamin:

Right? So after,

Greg Thompson:

After watching us work,

Michael Jamin:

As I tell our audience to catch 'em up, um, so yeah, we worked together. So we never worked together. We were just, we became friends on that. And then later, then later we shared a bungalow. We both had overall deals at CBS Radford. And so we shared a bungalow. We'd have lunch together. Remember we'd hang out in your office and just talk about ideas. Bounce Yeah. Each other that think an overall deal's great. That was fun. And then later was, no, king Hill was before that.

Greg Thompson:

King Hill was before

Michael Jamin:

That. Right? And then later Radford, our overall deal. Then later we hired you guys on, on Glen Martin. And you guys saved our butts. You and your partner Aaron, saved our butts. And then how did I Thank you. I almost, I almost thanked you by destroying your career. . I only remember you guys, you guys came in, was it, it was season two, right? Of Glen Martin.

Greg Thompson:

Yeah. Season two. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

We, we brought you in. We had the money. We wanted very, we wanted season writers. And you guys came in, you always delivered great drafts, which is, is, I always say, this is all you want from a writer. Can you turn in a good draft? And you guys always did. And then there was talk of spinning off Glen Martin to a spinoff. And I remember we were like, Hey, we'll do this show. And then you could run the other show or which one, one or the other you guys could run. And you're like, eh, we got this other offer to go to this cartoon called Bob's Burgers. You don't wanna go to Bob's Burgers,

Greg Thompson:

,

Michael Jamin:

You wanna stay here? . And then, and thank God you took that offer, cuz I would've felt terrible like ruining your career. Cause that they spinoff never happened. . And then Glen Martin was canceled and it jumped off just in time to go to,

Greg Thompson:

There was an idea that Glen Martin was gonna jump to Fox or something, and

Michael Jamin:

There was a lot of lies floating .

Greg Thompson:

Yeah. It was probably Michael Eisner was planning these thoughts.

Michael Jamin:

Um, right. I forgot Fox. Fox didn't, Fox had no, had no knowledge of that. They weren't on

Greg Thompson:

. But, uh, yeah. But yeah, I think we all thought the puppet animation genre was gonna explode. And, and I have to say, it's really funny. It's still, when I look at, I've dug up some old Glen Martin's. It is really funny. I mean, it is, it was an underrated show under watched certainly, but also underrated.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. It was, we did some good stuff. You guys wrote some great episodes. But then, so you got the offer because Bob's Burgers co-create by Jim Dore. We both work with on King of the Hill. So he reached out to you guys. How did you have this Bob about, and why didn't he reach out to us? ?

Greg Thompson:

I didn't probably You were working. You, you're busy. Um, we

Michael Jamin:

Were busy

Greg Thompson:

Developed by Jim DotR. I should make sure I say that properly. Created by Lauren Bouchard, developed by Jim DotR. Um, yeah, he was just staffing up. And actually he, he had hired two other guys, uh, before us. And then there, um, and gosh, I'm blanking blanket on their names. Sorry. Um, but they had a pilot going, and their pilot got picked up to production. So they had to drop out of Bob's burger's mm-hmm. . And, and then that opened up a slot and Jim, Jim called us to, to come interview for it. And we saw the That's been, and, and you guys, you guys let us out of our Glen Martin deal early by the way. You, you did us a favor that not everybody would've done.

Michael Jamin:

That's that is true. Now some people wouldn't. But, but I think most,

Greg Thompson:

I most, I think most would good, good people would,

Michael Jamin:

Good people let you out. Our contract. Um, and so, and how many that was 2008, you've been on that? Oh, no,

Greg Thompson:

That was 2000, 2010. We went over there, 10, I think we, we went over to Glen Martin. We were there for actually second half of the first season through most of the second season.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, that's what it was

Greg Thompson:

Like Glen Martin. Yeah. So I think we wrote It's

Michael Jamin:

A amazing song. You've been on Bob's Burgers. It's crazy. Like that's, that's job security.

Greg Thompson:

Yeah, I was thinking, yeah, it's, it's 12 over 12 years now. And I, I'm wearing, um, I'm wearing the first piece of swag we ever got on Bob's. I don't know if it's visible on camera or not. This, this, uh, old hoodie, which is now just in taters. It's 12 years old. And

Michael Jamin:

Do you, is it hard coming up with stories that at the, for 12 years?

Greg Thompson:

Yes. Yes. Very hard. Um, also because unlike The Simpsons, which is kind of branched off into the peripheral characters, they'll do a episode about APU or whatever they used to. Anyway. Um, Bob's stays with the, the family. Right. And, and do

Michael Jamin:

You, how, how does the musical numbers work? How do you guys produce, you know, how do you write and produce that?

Greg Thompson:

Uh, well, I, Lauren is extremely musical. Lauren Bouchard very musical. So he always had, you know, a big interest in that. And he can, he can write and play. And then there are, you know, there are, uh, musical people, you know, uh, uh, on the show.

Michael Jamin:

Who writing the lyrics for that? Do you write some script or what?

Greg Thompson:

Well, we do, yeah. Yeah. Most of the writers will write some lyrics. I've written. Yeah, I've written some lyrics. And that's, you know, don't write the music occasionally. You might like take a stab at a tune for something silly, but yeah. And that's, that's like, and that's, that's like fun

Michael Jamin:

For the music as well

Greg Thompson:

Then. Yeah. Yeah. You do like the, um, yeah, we're like members of ASCAP or BMI or something. Yeah. And, um, yeah, there's actually been, um, two Bobs Burgers record albums that have come out. Didn't that sub pop?

Michael Jamin:

Were you with the movie as well,

Greg Thompson:

Though? Yeah, I mean, to a limited degree. It was, the movie was, was really written by, by Lauren and Nora Smith, who's also the, you know, his number two, she's also Show Runner. Um, and then, but all the other writers pitched in on Story and, and jokes and, you know, we looked at lots of cuts. And so we, we were, we were part of it. Uh, we're, we have credit, but, um, but they did the, uh, heavy lifting for sure.

Michael Jamin:

And, you know, you're kind of like the last writer, Guild of America. Cartoon , one of the last, right. I mean, you're covered by the writer Guild, right? It's not ascap. I mean, not

Greg Thompson:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a writer's guilded show. Yeah. And I guess, like, I don't know, not to tell Tales Outta School. I think Disney is still trying to, you know, put shows on the air on, you know, Disney now owns 20th Century Fox Television. Um, still try to get, you know, II covered shows, which that's a, a guild with fewer, bene fewer benefits for your, your viewers.

Michael Jamin:

It's nonstarter now. It's like, it's, I, it's, it's the animation.

Greg Thompson:

Oh, is it really? Yeah. Okay. Things are tough. Okay. I didn't realize that.

Michael Jamin:

How did you, now you didn't start you, what was your career for the, for people who are listening, what was your career before you got into writing? I'll start from the

Greg Thompson:

Beginning. Um,

Michael Jamin:

Year was 1948.

Greg Thompson:

. I was, I was 12. The, uh, that was

The, I I would just say in brief that like, I always loved television growing up. I loved movies and television. Uh, and I, I became a writing major in college, uh, creative writing major, which wasn't, wasn't a good idea. Uh, but at all that time, it never occurred to me that there were people that wrote television . I never looked at the credits. And so it never occurred to me that there would be a career doing screenwriting. Um, and so after I got outta college, I went into, I moved to New York and I got into, uh, book publishing and was a, worked in marketing for a few different publishers. Uh, book and magazine publishing. And that was go, that was my career. That was what I was doing. I was gonna be kind of a business person. And, you know, in, I wore a suit, uh, took the subway.

Um, and then I went to business school to get an MBA thinking, well, that's the next step of my, my, uh, tremendous business career. And that brought me out to LA afterwards to work at the LA Times. Um, and, uh, uh, Aaron Abrams. So you bet you, before my friend, uh, had split up with his wife, he'd moved out to LA to be a screenwriter, and then his marriage had blown up. Um, so he had an empty bedroom. And I moved in with him to begin my job at the LA Times. And Aaron was trying to be a screenwriter. And so for the,

Michael Jamin:

From college,

Greg Thompson:

Uh, yeah, we kind of, we did an equivalent of the, uh, we, we did a little, uh, summer school publishing bootcamp kind of thing. Um, interesting. One summer after college, like a six week program, a little like the, the sitcom writing workshop in a way, but for people interested in publishing. Um, and so just like a summer school thing. So I met him doing that. We, we hit it off. We had, you know, kind of this instant, instant rapport. Um, and, uh, I thought he was hilarious and everything. And so I wasn't surprised when he eventually decided that he was gonna try to be a screenwriter. So then I move into the, I move into his, uh, terrible, messy apartment. Um, and, and I see like he is got a bunch of scripts. I'd never seen a script before. Uh, you know, it's kind of, it was pre-internet.

You couldn't like, download scripts. It's like, oh, wow, this is weird. So that led me to reading scripts, talking to Aaron about what he was doing. Uh, you know, he very generously would ask me to read things he was working on and ask if I had any ideas or thoughts. Uh, and, and then, and then, and then Aaron suggested we were, we were having some conversation about the, uh, actually the NFL player's strike, uh, of the eighties. And he said, I always thought that would be an interesting movie. Um, so, uh, then he said, do you wanna try to write a movie about that with me? So together, we basically hammered out this, um, comedy that did not become the, was it a Keanu Reeves movie, but was The Replacements. Ours was called Substitute Heroes. And it was much like The Replacements. And, and that was the first thing we wrote together. And that ended up, um, we ended up selling that for a guild minimum to some place.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.

Greg Thompson:

The substitution Heroes, where did you sell it? Football comedy. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And

Greg Thompson:

Where did you want? And it ended up selling to like, uh, some producers for Guild minimum, um, low budget minimum, which was I think like $26,000 or something like that. Or maybe, maybe more. Uh, but that was, I, you know, obviously that would be thrilling even now to sell a movie for, you know, a little bit of money. So it was very thrilling to, to me and, um, and Aaron. And so, and then at the same time, like I'm working my LA Times job, and I wasn't enjoying that a ton. You know, I was in like this, I don't know, weird little group called Market Planning. And we'd do these like analyses of like Orange County advertising market and stuff that no one would ever look at. Um, and, uh, and the LA Times was a place, I always remember this. They would do casual Friday, one day a month.

So you had to, you had to remember what Friday remember? Casual. Casual. That was before we were casual all the time. Yeah. Right. So you had to remember what Friday of the month was, casual Friday. So you could not wear your suit. Um, and then for our, uh, Christmas party, we had a, like an annual Christmas party. You'd have to come in an hour early that morning. And the, the Christmas party would be like, between the hours of 7:00 AM and 8:00 AM , or 8:00 AM and 9:00 AM I, I forget when work started , at least in my department, that's,

Michael Jamin:

You have to get up to your party. Some party.

Greg Thompson:

It wasn't . Yeah, no, it wasn't, it wasn't festive

Michael Jamin:

.

Greg Thompson:

So it was that there was that kind of, it was that kind of play. So meanwhile, you know, then I'm like, you know, thinking, oh, well this, this screenwriting thing's working out great. I'll do that instead. Um, you know, and I think, you know, like, you know, we are getting a lot of meetings and I think, you know, in Hollywood, like a meeting sounds exciting. Yeah. It'll almost inevitably lead to nothing. But still for a moment you feel like, you know, you're driving on a lot, you have a pass, they're waiting for you, you sit down, someone brings you out water, you feel important. And, and it's, the people you're meeting with are almost always just filling their schedule to feel important. Yes. So you go in there and together, all of you feel important, and then you leave. It

Michael Jamin:

Sounds like you're, you've listened to my podcast. Cause I've said these words many times.

Greg Thompson:

Oh

Michael Jamin:

Yes, go important, but go on. Right. Then go. What happened?

Greg Thompson:

Uh, so then, um, I, I remember Aaron was like, he had this, um, he played like beach volleyball, uh, in this like league or something like that, even though he was terrible. But

Michael Jamin:

I don't, I don't believe that part of his story,

Greg Thompson:

But, well, I'll say he was on a beach volleyball team. Whether you could describe it as playing, I don't know. But I think he was trying to beat girls. And so, but he, but there were a couple like TV writers in his, in the beach volleyball group, and he said, these guys are all doing great. They all have like, big houses. Uh, they're so successful. We should like, let's forget movies. Let's try to write television. So we started working on, uh, some spec scripts, as you know, I'm sure you've probably talked about that at different times. And, uh, you know, we wrote an Ellen, you know, and a spec is your sample to get hired onto a show. We wrote an Ellen that I thought was great, uh, that I still remember what it was about. It was about Ellen dates her assertiveness instructor and then can't break up with him because she's not assertive enough. Which,

Michael Jamin:

Funny.

Greg Thompson:

Well, well, for one thing, I, I don't know if there is such a thing as an assertive assertiveness instructor , I think it felt, it felt right to us in 1994 or so. Um, but, you know, but we thought, okay, we've nailed it. We've written one spec, now we're gonna, now our career will begin in television. And everybody hated it. And I mean, you've probably experienced this, or people experienced people who've felt this way. They fall in love with their spec. They think their spec is great. It's really the, the first spec they've written. And they become very, very attached to it. Not attached to every part of it. Every, every element. They're not receptive to notes. And I, I think I was certainly that way about this, this one, but the, uh, the feedback was so uniformly negative. It was like, okay, well let's , I think we have to write another one. So we wrote a Larry Sanders uhhuh, uh, a Larry Sanders spec, which went much better. It was just a much better show for us. It was more in our sensibility. It was. So, uh, that's the one that, uh, we ended up using to get into the, uh, Warner Brothers sitcom writing workshop.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And that, the rest, now Aaron, Aaron Abras was this, you know, we were both friends. One of the sweetest guys you ever met. And then he tragically died halfway through your career. And then I remember, I mean, it was just awful, but I remember either calling you or writing to you, and I was like, listen, cuz you had to reinvent your career at that point. You were, you had a writing partner that you relied on and you bounced things off. And then you had to become a solo writer. And I remember reaching out to you saying, listen, if, like, if you wanna, if you might need to write new samples, if you want help breaking a story or anything, like just call me receiver. Well, happy. But, but you never did. What was

Greg Thompson:

That like? I re I re I I, I, I do remember that, and I still grateful for that. Uh, but you and Stever both reached out and were were terrific during that time. Um, it was, it was fortunate for me that I was on Bob's burgers. We had done, Aaron and I had done a season on Bob's, so, uh, it hadn't even aired yet. Um, but it was, I'm trying to think when it got it. Season two order, I guess it didn't get that until it had aired for a few, a few weeks. Um, once Bob's began airing and the show got picked up for another season, which was a little nip and tuck, cuz the ratings were a little, um, or touch and go rather, uh, uh, the Lauren and Jim offered me, you know, the opportunity to come back as a solo writer. Uh, so I, I did not have to produce those other specs. I did have to write a pilot that Aaron and I had been contracted to write. So I had to, I did have to finish the pilot. We'd outlined it, but we hadn't written it yet. And, um, I had to, I had to write it. But when you, that was, so that was the first thing I wrote.

Michael Jamin:

And was it like, even now, do you hear his voice? Like, do you think, what would Aaron do here? Or, or are you like, you know, now this is, are you, you know, are

Greg Thompson:

You Yeah, no, I I I, I still totally do. Uh, I mean, he was, he's such a funny guy and, you know, it was, you know, he used to say like, you know, the, unfortunately the funny person of the writing team died. So the, the, the guy who's like, does little, I don't even know what my specialty was, kind of doing things Aaron did, but a little less well founded. Uh, and, um, but yeah, no, I'll, I'll sometimes if I'm, if I'm writing and if a, a joke will occur to me, and I'll think that is an Aaron kind of joke, right. You know, that that's, that's his sensibility. So as much as I can cha uh, channel, uh, Aaron's voice, I, I I try to, um, he was, you know, just a unique voice.

Michael Jamin:

I imagine it would be honestly be a little paralyzing that first, at least the first couple of scripts you're like, I'm, I'm, I'm flying solo here.

Greg Thompson:

Yeah. Uh, and I, you know, I don't know how it is with you and Seaver, I think, you know, you, you do work separately at times. I know. Um, but, uh, every, everything Aaron and I had written, we'd written together in the same room. You know, we might go off and work on a scene by ourselves for a while and then share it, but mostly it was like kind of taking turns at a keyboard while the other guy was there in the room. Yeah. Uh, looking, you know, looking over the shoulder. So it was, uh, it was, you know, a pretty, um, uh, uh, close writing situation. So yeah, I just, um, I, I, I would do a couple tricks of, I would, I remember the, when I was writing the pilot, uh, it was like, okay, I'm gonna write the scenes that I think are easier to write first.

Mm-hmm. . And so I wrote scenes out of order just to make progress. Right. Uh, and so then when you make a little progress, you begin to feel better, you begin to feel more confident. Um, right. And, and I also, and I still do this, I'll, I'll write a scene maybe with some, some of the dialogue at all caps, which is my way of saying this is not the dialogue. This is an approximation of what has to be said here in this moment. Uh, just to get through it, just to get through it so I don't get stuck. Um, yeah. Uh, because yeah, I mean, Erin and I would, we'd, we would try to do as little rewriting as possible, just maybe outta laziness. So we would kind of get a lot of consensus on everything before we wrote, uh, or as, you know, as we worked our way down the page. But as a, as a solo writer, I just couldn't do that. It was like, Nope, I'm, I'm gonna have to do more revisions, I'll have to do more passes. Um mm-hmm. . So that's what, that's what I started doing.

Michael Jamin:

And now does it just feel comfortable on your own or, you know, I, it's interesting,

Greg Thompson:

You know, I know it, it, it does and it doesn't, it always feels a little in like, you know, right now I'm, you know, trying to come up with story ideas to write one and looking at the calendar and looking at how much time I have, and I think, oh God, am I gonna have enough time to break it? And, uh, you know, holidays are coming up that's gonna cut into time. Uh, so I, I always have a little bit of panic, and I think I'm known for this on the show of being fairly neurotic about scripts, worried I won't put it together. Uh, cuz you know, there's so many, so many, Michael, you know, there's so many jokes in the script, it's like several hundred by the time you're done. And it's like, oh, how will I think of all those jokes?

Michael Jamin:

It's that, that's the part that's intimidating to me. It's the getting the story out. Well,

Greg Thompson:

Yeah, no, I mean, the story, you know, obviously the most important part. Um, but, you know, every element is hard. And so it's what

Michael Jamin:

Now how mu like how is it run, how is it differently working on Bob's workers than it was either at Glen Martin or Kim King of the Hill for you? You know, the process.

Greg Thompson:

Uh, I'd say Bob's Berger's, it's much more, uh, you kind of become your own little executive producer of your episode all the way through production, you know, and basically, most of the times you will be coming up with the idea of your episode. You will be pitching it, you will be running the room, uh mm-hmm. as you, you know, put, uh, break the story. Uh, you know, then you're updating, you know, Lauren, the, and Laura, the showrunners. But you're, it's, it's kind of on you. It's, it's not, it's not like, and there will be people breaking stories simultaneously, which I guess was what we had at King of the Hill too. Yeah. Uh, a a few small rooms, um, but it isn't like probably most of television today still where it's everybody around a table, the whole staff breaking one story at a time. Right. With, you know, walking through the beats on a, on a board, kind of assembling it all, everybody, the staff, everybody together. It's, it's more individual. Uh, you, you, we kind of have more rope to, you know, make magic or get in trouble.

Michael Jamin:

And now you're doing, you're consulting, which is so interesting, just a couple days a week. Um, yeah. What, how's that for you working out? Everyone talks about what?

Greg Thompson:

It's,

Michael Jamin:

It's

Greg Thompson:

Perfect. It's simultaneous with, it's simultaneous with C so it's, it's, it's hard to separate the two in a way. So it's, so far it's been people are beginning to come back to the office, but for the last two and a half years, it's been all Zoom.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Uh,

Greg Thompson:

And uh, I would say like, if I didn't have to like write scripts occasionally, it would be fent it would be so easy. I mean, not easy, but, but it's always like, you know, if you could sit back and give people pitches on their episode all day, and it's like, well, here's my idea. If it works, terrific. If it doesn't work, well , you know, it's not my problem. It it is. But

Michael Jamin:

Do you think you'll stay there for, for a, for a while longer? What do you, what are your plans? Do you have any?

Greg Thompson:

I I, I, you know, I've just kind of taken it year by year. Uh, the, um, we'll see, um, I don't know. It's, it's still been a fun thing and, and most of the staff is the same staff as when we first grouped up 12 years ago.

Michael Jamin:

No one's, no one's leaving back, back when we started, um, uh, you know, we, you could jump shows, you might work on a show for a couple years, then jumped to another show. But now with the market, you'd be crazy to leave any show if you're on a show, you stay there and you hang on for dear life.

Greg Thompson:

I think so. I think so. I think that's been true of Bob's and, you know, uh, Wendy and Lizzie Molino, two of to have really, you know, very funny writers on, on Bob's. They did, they left only because they developed their own show, uh, the Great North. So, but despite that, they still have a hand in Bob's and write an episode a year. So nobody really wants to let go of Bob's.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And then, uh, yeah. Do you, are you developing at all? Have you tried to develop in recent years or,

Greg Thompson:

You know, I, past the first year, no, I haven't, I haven't tried to develop, and that's, you know, I have to say that's a little bit of laziness on my part. Like, you know, why do I wanna develop myself out of a job, this great job on Bob's? Uh, yeah. And, and also it was like, you know, we, Aaron and I, Aaron and I think did like eight or nine pilots, only one produced, but it was always really hard and, uh, a distressing experience. You'd, you'd, you know, we'd go in full of, full of ambition and hopes and dreams of how this next pilot was gonna be great. And then, and then you'd get so ground down by the process, we'd be miserable and hate, and hate our pilot by the end of it.

Michael Jamin:

People don't under no understanding, uh, of how the industry actually works. That's what I'm trying to educate them. But like we say the same things, like if we didn't have, if we were on full time staff, we, we wouldn't have to develop, we wouldn't run out to develop. It's only because staffs, the orders are so much shorter that you kind of have to, if you wanna make a living, you gotta sell what you gotta,

Greg Thompson:

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, tell provision's changed, changed it that way. So so, you know, I'm a little embarrassed. I haven't, you know, tried to develop in the last decade, but I don't know, I'm just,

Michael Jamin:

So what, what advice do you have? Do you, I mean, are you bringing on any young writers or what advice do you have when you see a young writer join the show?

Greg Thompson:

Uh, well, boy, I don't know. I guess it would be the advice. Uh, I'd give any young writer, you know, just try to, try to pay attention to the voices of the show. Know the show, watch, watch every episode. You know, when we were hired on King of the Hill, I, I'd watched King of the Hill, but I hadn't seen everything. But, you know, I methodically started plowing through hundreds of episodes at that point. I think maybe 200 episodes had happened by the time we, we joined it. So, and that's just kind of an education and you internalize the voices of the characters and, and it, it helps you, it helps you know what to pitch. So, you know, we'll, we'll have, obviously, like a new writer will often like, pitch an episode idea that we've kind of already done. And, you know, it's hard to catch up with everything, but you have to try.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Greg Thompson:

And just, I guess trust that you're, trust that you're there for a reason and that your ideas are good and, you know, do your best.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right. But it's a pretty supportive environment there, it sounds like.

Greg Thompson:

Oh, it's great. Yeah. No, it's, it's really a nice group of people. Um, you know, you've been on many staffs and I was on many staffs, and I think my experience was almost always good. Uh, I hope yours was too. But you know, the, I think we probably all have both had the experience of being in a room where you're sitting in the same, you're around a table, same table every day. You're not only that, but you're seated in the same seat every day. Mm-hmm. , uh, same person to the left, same person to the right. And, and sometimes there will be people who will make a point of only laughing at, uh, somebody's, somebody several people's pitches, but never several other people's pitches.

Interesting. Trying to, right. Yeah. I mean, uh, and, uh, it, it is a little bit of a, and this is, you know, it was rare to have this experience, but, you know, maybe did once or twice, um, pe writers are trying to get their jokes in. Uh, they would rather have their joke in than a funnier joke from somebody else. So there is that, there is that bit of competition. And I'm not saying I would have the funnier joke that no one would want in or anything like that, but, uh, uh, it's, it's this natural, um, selfishness, self-preservation, I guess. Yeah. Of like, right. I must, I must have a certain number of jokes in the, in the episode, or I'm not, I'm not earning my, my morsel of meat Yeah. Today. Yeah. So, um, so there, you know, there is a competitiveness. And I think, I think some shows, I think very could be bad miserable places. Um, Bob's was a fantastic place. Everybody was great. Right. Everybody was supportive. Uh, everybody was funny. Uh, everybody is funny. So many great writers. So it's been a, a fantastic situation.

Michael Jamin:

And how, and you say you were, you're involved heavily in the production. So you'll watch the animatics, you'll give notes on the air, or do you watch all the automatics or just the ones you, you produce?

Greg Thompson:

Uh, we watch all thematics and colors. Uh, but the animat, you know, for your own episode, you, you will be, you know, more involved in notes and revisionism

Michael Jamin:

Just for

Greg Thompson:

People. And the,

Michael Jamin:

The a animat are the rough, uh, before like crude sketches of the, uh, cartoon, the animation. And then you give notes on that. And then, then it's more like for blocking, which before the character should do and what kind of shot you have. And then later they color it in and, you know, that's, then you, you give notes on that as well. But you, are you also at the record? Are you, um, recording the actors?

Greg Thompson:

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, we've done that a few different ways. In the beginning of the show, it was the, uh, Bob's was unique in this, in that they, you'd have multiple actors in, you know, on, on Mike, uh, at the same time. And it would be a simultaneous recording, so you'd have overlap mm-hmm. , uh, and improv. And that was kind of a hallmark of Bob's. And then in, uh, as c happened, we had to kind of break that apart and actors were recording in their homes, and so we were getting them one at a time. Right. Um, and so now it's, it's kind of a little combination of,

Michael Jamin:

But are you direct in a way, the actress yourselves or someone else? One of the store runners directing

Greg Thompson:

Lauren, Lauren was the director for like the first 10 years mm-hmm. every episode. And then during Covid we began to direct our own episodes. Right. Uh, but now we're actually in the process of having one writer direct all the episodes, uh, uh, with the, uh, a writer producer will direct all of them. And just so there's kind of a, a unified voice coming from the directing booth. Right. Um, and then Theri, the writer is also there to give notes and suggestions.

Michael Jamin:

Roll their eyes. You're doing it wrong.

Greg Thompson:

Yeah. I'd say, no, that's not, that's not, it's goes. So, yeah. And uh, I'd say Lauren is kind of constantly tinkering with the process, trying to improve it, even after like 12 years you think it would, things would be, okay, this is how we do it, this is how we'll always do it. But no, it's still being, aspects of production are being reinvented and tinkered with all the time.

Michael Jamin:

It's a great show. Cause it has such a sweetness to it, such an earnestness to, uh, who knew, who knew it was gonna be sort of giant.

Greg Thompson:

It does. It does. Uh, and I know early on, like, um, you know, Aaron and I would pitch, uh, coming from a, well, I guess working on every other show, we pitched a lot of, like, stories that involved conflict between the family, you know, uh, that was a little maybe sharper than Lauren wanted to do. Yeah. He didn't want, you know, his thing is he doesn't ever want the characters being mean to each other. Right. Anything perceived as mean. And so, like, you know, like, oh, if you're watching most sitcoms, it's like, oh, I don't know, everybody's, everybody does this all the time. You know what, so, but he wanted something sweetie.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And it's a good instinct. When we, we, when we worked for, uh, Chris Lloyd who, you know, he ran Frazier for many years, and then later we worked for Man Practice. He used to say the same things. He, he would say Velvet Gloves. So when the characters slapped each other, they had to be wearing velvet gloves. So you never wanna hit too hard. Everyone saw too hard, you know, I was like, oh, that's, that's smart. I'll start using that word

Greg Thompson:

. I won't do it, but I'll use the word. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and, and certainly like, you know, one thing with the internet, now, you can see what everybody thinks of every episode and on Reddit. And do you guys

Michael Jamin:

Do that?

Greg Thompson:

Uh, Twitter? Do you go? Yeah. Yeah. Does

Michael Jamin:

That change the way you write future episodes?

Greg Thompson:

I think a little, um, like we did an episode once where the family was on a game show, which is kind of an unusual episode for us. It was pretty early. And they end up kind of getting cheated out of their prize at the end of the game show. It's kind of a, they're kind of ripped off. Mm-hmm. and the ending, we thought, no, it's a great ending. It's, you know, it's, it's perfect. It's funny, it's, uh, it's television viewers hated the bels that that had happened to the Belchers that they'd been, it, it felt like an unsatisfying ending to many, many, many viewers. And they would keep bringing it up. In fact, they still bring it up, uh, online as, as a, an episode ending. They don't like, uh, and you know, I think maybe because it was an unearned, they hadn't really done anything wrong and they ended up being, you know, kind of robbed. So I think we, we avoid, we try to avoid lessons where they, or episodes where they just have complete egg on their face by the end. Right. There has to be some kind of little, little victory or something learned, something positive that comes out

Michael Jamin:

It. Yeah. That's interesting. It's interesting you take that few, cuz I never sire kind of does. I, I'm really kind, I stay away from, I don't want to hear about the reviews. I don't want to hear about what the viewers think, just wanna, you know, do my thing and cross my fingers. But it's, you know, different.

Greg Thompson:

I mean, that's probably healthier. But if it's an episode that I wrote that's airing, um, I just devour Twitter.

Michael Jamin:

Do you really?

Greg Thompson:

Trying to, trying to, uh, oh, yeah. No, I, I I definitely try to cherry pick , you know, any positive comments.

Michael Jamin:

We went on, geez, this is about a year ago, Sierra and I went on, I don't know when we went on YouTube to like, see what people were saying about Glen Martin. We hadn't watched the show in years. And, and then there's some guy from his basement, some young guy talking about the show and he nailed it. He, he was as if he was in the writer's room. Like he understood the show better, better than we did. And it was just hilarious to hear him take it apart. I was like, man, this guy,

Greg Thompson:

I think, did you send that around? Did you send that around to the writers? I kind of remember reading something that I thought, yeah, this guy's, this guy's good, this

Michael Jamin:

Guy's, he was like a spy me. So much Funny .

Greg Thompson:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Wow.

Greg Thompson:

That, oh, it was a funny, it was a funny show. Does that air, I mean, does that, how does that, as a quick aside, is Glen Martin accessible on any

Michael Jamin:

Platform? I think, yeah, I think it's on YouTube where you can watch it all for free. So we don't get any, I mean, we have some points and we don't get any of it. I don't think you make money by showing,

Greg Thompson:

But it's

Michael Jamin:

For free.

Greg Thompson:

Did some, I mean, did some kid upload it or is it, is it like they're all this, whoever owns it, put it, put

Michael Jamin:

It on Michael Eisner there as a whole, like maybe we get enough used, like he can even sell it again somewhere. I'm like, you know, yeah. Sell it somewhere. Let's, let's bring it back. But I don't think we've pushed band to bring it back. I can't, we reboot Glen Martin. I don't think there's anything there. Oh, that's funny.

Greg Thompson:

Oh. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Well,

Greg Thompson:

Uh,

Michael Jamin:

Greg, is there any place, is there anything you wanna plug? Do you wanna talk about your next season? Should people follow you anywhere? Is there anything you wanna get off your chest before eight?

Greg Thompson:

Oh, well, God, I'm not really on Twitter. No. I mean, I can't, it's, I'm unfollowable on social media cuz um, I don't know. Just, uh, I guess keep watching. Uh, uh, I kind of forget where we are production-wise. I never know what episodes about to air. Yeah. Cause as you know, the, the production schedule in in animation is very long. It's almost don't

Michael Jamin:

Without nine months with you guys in almost a year.

Greg Thompson:

Well, it can be, you know, if, especially if you know, the order changes. Right. And, and

Michael Jamin:

How many

Greg Thompson:

Episodes do you get, you know, after production. But it's a long

Michael Jamin:

Time. What, what is your order this year? Like 22?

Greg Thompson:

Uh, I think it's 22. I think it's, yeah, Bob's is one of the last, you know, shows that still gets a 22 order. Uh, and it does less so now, but it did, you know, repeat a lot too. So there was residuals involved. Um, so, but fortunate

Michael Jamin:

It worked out.

Greg Thompson:

Um,

Michael Jamin:

,

Greg Thompson:

No. Let's see what I, I, I, uh, I would merely plug, uh, your,

Michael Jamin:

My Plus this in my Pod . All right. Everyone that well,

Greg Thompson:

Are you still doing the videos as uh, what? Oh, I was just asking if you're doing the video, the video, uh, podcast things as well. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

These will air, yeah, they air they'll be on YouTube as well, and we run clips across media. Okay. People can, you know, they can get it everywhere. They can. Yeah. Continue following.

Greg Thompson:

Okay. It's

Michael Jamin:

All part of that. Yeah. It's all, but that's, yeah. I, I, I, this has been fascinating hearing your story as far as I'm concerned, but ,

Greg Thompson:

But Greg,

Michael Jamin:

Thank you for

Greg Thompson:

I, I, uh, well, thank you. I hope

Michael Jamin:

You're a good dude.

Greg Thompson:

Uh, thank, thank you for having me, Michael. I, you know, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of yours, uh, and, uh, yeah, honored.

Michael Jamin:

Oh God, this is my honor. But alright, everybody, thank you so much to great comic comedian, writer Greg Thompson. And, uh, yeah. So what, let me tell you what else is going on over here. So keep, if you guys wanna sign up for my watch list, that's my free newsletter where I send out daily tips for screenwriters and creative types at Michael jam.com/watchlist and keep following us here. And, uh, yeah, we have different content on YouTube. Our YouTubes at Michael Jam, writer and, uh, Instagram. Keep follow My Instagram, the TikTok Act. Michael Jam writer. All right, everyone. Thank you so much, Greg. Thank you. Until next week for more people. All right. Be good.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Jay is an Emmy-winning writer and producer known for shows like The Simpsons, Frasier, George Lopez, Malcolm In The Middle, and School of Rock.

Jay Kogen's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0463124/

Jay Kogen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaykogen

Jay Kogen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaykogen//

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Jay Kogen:

Improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it,

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jam.

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jam. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this today. I got a very special guest that none of you deserve to hear. You're just not good enough. But if you , But if you do wanna listen, pull over. If you're listening to your car, pull over. You gotta, because this is a big shot in the TV world. So with my guest, I have Jay Cogan and I have to, You gotta know who this guy, this guy's been around the block. Okay. He started at, I believe he started on the Tracy Allman show. He wrote on The Simpsons, the single guy, The Wrong Guy. This was back when he told his agent he would only do guy shows and everyone's like, This guy's out of his mind. But then he did Frazier. George Lopez. You did the first. I was in the other George Lopez.

You're the one people think I run a Lopez. Nah, not that Lopez or Malcolm in the Middle. And I'm leaving off half your credits. I'm just skimming through this. That class Happi divorced to Troop Wendell and Vinny Kirsty, which is where we worked together for 10 minutes. Cuz I was for the freelance episode that we did. But that was only 10, honestly. That was a real fast interaction. Then Ned and Stacy School of Rock. And then now you're doing, I guess oversharing and Renaissance. I wanna talk more about that and the new Punky Brewster. I don't know how that happened, I wanna know more about that. But, okay, so my guest is Jay Hogan and I gotta say, I never told you this, Chad, but my first job was on Just Shoe Me. And so I was a young baby writer and everyone that, on that staff, it was like Laan and Andy Gordon Con and Stephen Engel and you were one of these names that always came up. It was j Hogan said the funniest thing on Frazier. J Hogan did this. He came into the room, he did that and you were on, Honestly, in my mind, you were like this mythical character. And even at the time I was like, I don't know if it's j Hogan or Jake Hogan. And I don't want to ask because I don't.

Jay Kogen:

No one does. No one knows. It's true. No one knows. It's too

Michael Jamin:

Bad. Just ask. True

Jay Kogen:

. I'm still mythical. By the way, just so you know, you're still, I may or may not be real

Michael Jamin:

Mythical. Right? Mythical, Okay.

Jay Kogen:

Yeah. Now you said I'm mythical. I don't know. So you don't know whether I'm real or not. So

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. I don't wanna find out.

Jay Kogen:

I dunno.

Michael Jamin:

But we'll get to the bottom of this. People

Jay Kogen:

Who are driving, who pulled over, thank you for pulling over , I appreciate it. I hope you're safe. Put your hazards on.

Michael Jamin:

I So Jay, I got a million questions for you, but I guess let's start with the beginning. Everyone wants to know, how did you break in to Hollywood?

Jay Kogen:

Oh, it was a really rough ride, man. My dad was a writer producer, and I asked him to introduce me to some of his friends,

Michael Jamin:

. And let's talk about your dad. And

Jay Kogen:

I took it from there.

Michael Jamin:

But he wrote, and he wrote on a bunch of shows like Mary Tyler Moore show. What else did you

Jay Kogen:

Write on? He did, he read, he wrote a Mary Tyler Moore, I believe. He wrote a Mash, he wrote A New Heart and The New Heart Show, Bob Newhart Show and Newhart, he wrote on The Covert Show and the Dean Martin Show and the Jim Davis show and the Donny Marie Show. And he worked on Empty Nest and he worked on a million shows and wrote one shitty movie,

Michael Jamin:

Did

Jay Kogen:

Do it. It's called a soupy sales movie called Birds Do It. And my father was telling me that he can't bear to watch it . He hasn't seen it since 19 cause

Michael Jamin:

Rewritten. Cause Soki re rewrote

Jay Kogen:

It. No, he wrote it completely. No, it's his fault. He's saying he's, it's horrible and it's his fault.

Michael Jamin:

But you grew up around it. So I thought you were from Brooklyn, but you grew,

Jay Kogen:

I was born in Brooklyn and my dad moved from Brooklyn. He was working on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. And he moved out from Brooklyn to come work on the Dean Martin Show in 1968. Jesus. And that was my first experience on a sound stage, was on the Dean Martin Show on a Christmas episode. And it said, Ah, this looks like a fun job. Little did I know that writing is not a fun job. Writing is a really unfun job.

Michael Jamin:

People don't realize that. But what was it? So what was it growing around it? Did you talk shop with you? I don't know. Talk

Jay Kogen:

About I, my talking shop was gonna be limited . But even when

Michael Jamin:

You got older, did he tell you how to write a script?

Jay Kogen:

No. I mean, here's the thing. You grew up in a family that I'm sure was a funny family. No question if you're funny. You grew up in a funny family. My father,

Michael Jamin:

My dad invented comedy , he told me he made it up.

Jay Kogen:

So my father and mother are funny and if I try to make a joke at the table and get them to laugh, it was a great victory. So you'd hone your skills to make people laugh at the dinner table or on the living room couch. And that's kind of your writer's room training. And that's how you sort become the jokey guy in high school or junior high and become the jokey guy. So jokes, jokes were stock and trade in my house and my way to win my father's affection. So I tried to get good at it,

Michael Jamin:

But you still had to learn story structure, you had to write a script.

Jay Kogen:

Well that sucked. It took me years to do that because I was done. I had money. Most writers, we had jokes, but we didn't really understand story structure at all. We thought we knew it was funny and we thought, oh, just put funny stuff down and that'll be enough and that is way wrong. But that's what I thought. And I wrote some spec scripts and handed them to my dad and he said, This is terrible. Become a lawyer. He would say, Do not try to become a writer. This is awful. I wrote with some successful writers today who I work with in school. The Billy Ray who was at Academy Award and nominated writer and Robbie Fox and mm-hmm , Wally Wolodarsky became my partner at The Simpsons and Tracy Ownership. And we wrote all the time. And my father would read these scripts and go, These are terrible.

Do not get into the business. And so eventually I started working on PAing, on TV shows, getting people delivering scripts at three in the morning and getting people lunches, . And if I got it wrong, they'd scream at me and mm-hmm , all that kind of stuff. But I would learn, sit in the writer's room and watch them work out stories and figure out how they did stories. So that process was really enlightening. And so my partner and I, I tried to write a script and we wrote a script with a, it's for it's Gary Channeling show. Mm-hmm worked out one of their stories, which were always strange. And we did that. They kinda liked the script but they didn't buy it. And then we wrote another one and they didn't buy that. But then that became a sample that we got a job at the Tracy Allman Show from. And that's how it worked. And at the Tracy Allman show, under Heidi Pearlman and Jim Brooks and Sam Simon and Jerry Bellson, I started to learn that drama had a big part in comedy. And so there wasn't just jokes, it was jokes and story and characters that you cared about and situations that had impact and stakes and all those kind of things that you know about when you're a kid. But you ignore it and go like that. What's funny?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. It's so funny cuz I talk about this all the time. I wanna say you're gonna confirm, I guess hopefully. Or maybe I'm just an old blowhard and I just sound like an old frank. But I have a feeling you're gonna confirm a lot of stuff that I say. Cause I'm always like, no, the story's the most important thing. Jokes cut. You can always interchange the jokes. And people don't quite understand that when

Jay Kogen:

You can be a blow heart and also be right. So , those two things are not incongruous. But yes I will. When I talk to writers, I say that the story is first, character is second and jokes are third that you need the story is the hardest thing. Breaking a story is in writing is the hardest thing. Breaking a story, breaking it, making it sure that it pops, making sure that we're not going down stupid roads. That's the hardest thing. Everything else, the jokes are the easiest thing honestly. And the most replaceable thing, you don't like a joke, we'll cut it out and put a new joke in a character as they're very important. But sometimes you write something you realize, oh I have two characters that are the exact same person, and I, I'm gonna condense them into one person. Or I have characters doing the same, serving the same purpose in the story. And that's not a good idea. And so the story has to come first and that's always the most difficult thing. I always recommend to all writers, , outline your shit. Outline what you're gonna do before you're write. Show the outline to somebody, , get feedback on it before you waste your time writing a script on a story that's not gonna work.

Michael Jamin:

So that that's exactly right. I have to wanna bring this up cause I don't wanna forget this, but cuz my partner and I came in, we wrote, we did a freelance on the Kew Show, which we were on . And I have to say it was one of the most enjoyable experiences cuz it was like the last time, I mean I want to hear your thoughts on this. It was the last time I really was in a writer's room full of writers who had more experience than me because now it seems like I'm the old guy in the room now I'm the veteran guy and I really enjoyed working. You

Jay Kogen:

Made that in your brand, you were now that's your brand, you the experience guy . Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But it was so much fun cuz you get to hear other people's stories, you get to hear their wisdom. There was so many heavy hitters in that room.

Jay Kogen:

Yeah, that was a fun room. I mean I've had a lot of fun rooms. The rooms are still fun when I go and do them. So like and am the oldest guy in the room now maybe, but I'm not sure sometimes. Depends on the show. But I've certainly been around a long, long time. So I'm going on, it'll be 40 years soon. That's a long time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it is a long time. Yeah. So what do you accredit your longevity to? Is it you're getting your last three jobs basically?

Jay Kogen:

Well, the same way I got my first three jobs. It's sort of praying, meeting the right people, saying the right thing, wandering into a stupid situation that you didn't know about. And suddenly they have job so not organized. And so this, they're these jobs and you should, you're going to audition for these jobs and this is how it's a much more hazardous, haphazard. There's a show here and they may need somebody and you should be developing something here and you have a million irons in the fire and we'll see what happens.

Michael Jamin:

So you're constantly hustling. So it's not like your agents just setting this up, Oh hey, they wanna hire someone that you fit the bill. Right? I mean it's not as easy

Jay Kogen:

As that. No, rarely that rarely happens. And sometimes it does. But I mean honestly demographically, I'm not the key kind of person that they're looking for right now. . And there's a million reasons for that. I mean we should talk about that. There's a need, There has been a desperate need to make the playing field equal to all people from all different backgrounds and for many, many years, sort of Jewish white guys,

Had a preference. So we're now the guy like me, Brooklyn Jewish, Brooklyn Encino Jewish guy is, there's a dime a dozen, there's a lot of us . And then there's a brand new writers coming from different areas of experience and worlds and different backgrounds and more women and more people of, of uh, LGBTQ and more bipo people. And they all need a chance. They're sort starting to get a chance. And that means there's less room for people like you and me. And there's shorter pickups and there's smaller rooms. And so it, it's become a lot harder.

Michael Jamin:

It's a lot more hustle. And so you're also developing, how are you going about developing? Is it your own ideas or what are you doing?

Jay Kogen:

Some are my own ideas, some are ideas that I have with other people that I meet and I think, oh that's a good idea. Let's see if I can fix that. There's a pilot we're working on called Oversharing that's based on a play that I saw at UCB about a year and a half ago. And so we took the characters and the lifestyle of the characters in the play. The actors were also the writers. So I went, worked with these two women in their late twenties about what it means you to

Michael Jamin:

Be. So you approach them, you approach them, you say, Hey, I wanna develop your show.

Jay Kogen:

Yeah. Yes. With the help of Naomi Odenkirk, who is a manager, not my manager, but had called me in to, had seen this and I wanted to work with her and she said this is a good thing. So she matched me with these people and we've been working on this together for a while. And now we wrote a pilot and we're sort of seeing where it goes.

Michael Jamin:

So, Okay. That's interesting cuz sometimes people, you write the pilot first you go out with a pitch but you decided to write it first.

Jay Kogen:

Well here's the thing, we had a couple different things going on. The writers who were the actresses who did this didn't have writing samples, but they wanted to be part of the show. So to prove that they are able to write, they wrote, so this is their first episode and they'd like to be in it too, but maybe we'll sell it without them in it. But this is to prove proof of concept. Here's this thing, we may not use it to sell the show, we may,

Michael Jamin:

And you kind of just oversaw it. You didn't help with the writing, you just directed them a little bit or no

Jay Kogen:

. Well we pitched out the story together. I taught them kind of how the story structure's gonna work and and bring their play into a series. That whole transfer from interesting series, I guess I would get it developed by credit, something like that. But I didn't write the script. I helped rewrite the script, but I was involved heavily in the creation of it. So mean, my goal in this kind of thing is not to put my stamp on it. My goal is to take their world, their idea and bring it to life. And so the second I'm of putting my 50 year old guy brand on her, their 20 something life, it's gonna get ruined. So I just have to sit back and appreciate the world they're creating and then give my input here or there about maybe steering in certain directions and maybe this is what makes it fun of your story and reminding them what their goal was and who their characters were. Sometimes you'd lose that track of that.

Michael Jamin:

So how do you feel young writers have changed now? How are they different now than in attitude and preparedness and

Jay Kogen:

Everything? So much dumber.

Michael Jamin:

So much dumber. ,

Jay Kogen:

They're the same. I honestly feel like they're exactly the same. Different, The writer's rooms are different. What we're allowed to say and how we're allowed to behave is different. Yeah, I'm not going to say it's better or worse. It's just different. In the old days, we could make fun of each other. . And I was famous for doing room jokes. I did jokes, a lot of jokes in a writer's room. Sometimes people would say things and I would die. Sometimes people would say things and I would run out of the room so that you could see me in the window and just keep on running. And if my car was in the visual aspect of when I would get in my car and drive away, I would do a lot of jokes. I would get physically ill at something that if I heard two people were kissing or something, like I would do jokes, , all of which was based on the idea that they know I'm joking.

So I could make a joke about somebody who knew I was joking. I could make a joke about them or what they were wearing that day and they knew that I love them and I'm joking, right? That's not okay anymore. You cannot depend on people to understand your intention or even give a shit about your intention. If there's a joke at their expense, you're in trouble. So you don't joke about stuff anymore at anyone else's expense. We don't joke about their background, we don't joke about where they're from or who they anything about their lives. We keep it nice and businesslike and then we just try to do the work. So writer's rooms have become, ultimately for me, a lot less fun and a lot more, I wanna make a joke and I'm like, I can't do it cause I don't want to offend people, but I also don't want to get in trouble.

And I think younger people can be offended. I'm, I'm working with some college kids now. I was teaching a class at USC and as a college professor, you have to really be on your, you're, this is not a writer's room, this is a school. But those writing students I'm working with all seem like they're making jokes all the time about all things. So they're more like I was when I was a young person, but I'm not making those jokes because I'm a professor. So I, I'm kind stay out of the realm of anything close to offensive or dirty or strange or anything.

Michael Jamin:

That's interesting. I didn't, didn't know, but

Jay Kogen:

There's insane, I just wanna make jokes.

Michael Jamin:

I didn't know you were teaching at usc. How long have you been doing that?

Jay Kogen:

Half a minute. Oh, I had John Bowman, the writer, John Bowman was a friend of mine and he was teaching a sketch writing class and he unexpectedly died, which is good cuz when you expect to die, all

Michael Jamin:

Doesn't worse worth.

Jay Kogen:

So then they asked me to step in to fill, fulfill, fill it, the class that he was teaching. So I started doing that.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Wow. And I also know you, I didn't, But you're also doing, you do improv.

Jay Kogen:

Oh yeah, no, I've been doing it for my whole life. I started at the ground when I started in show business, my goal was to not be a writer. My goal was cause writing seemed, I watched my dad writing is lonely, it's quiet, it's intensive. , it seemed hard. I like working with people, I like having jokes, having good times. So I started being an actor and a standup comedian. And then when I was 16 I was, when I was a kid, I was an actor. When I was 16, I was still trying to be an actor and doing standup. And then I transitioned over to the Groundlings, which was a much better atmosphere to be part of than the improv or the comedy store. And I sort of figured out what character and story was based on that. That helped a lot. By the way, I do recommend that if you, you're a writer to take acting courses and take improv courses because you'll learn a shit ton of what you need to know. about being a writer. The other thing you need to do is take editing courses. If you can take a course in editing movies or editing TV shows, you'll learn what's important to keep in your script and what's not important to keep in your script. I didn't know a thing until I started editing.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have, But anyway, is there any goal, Is there a goal for you for, Are you just getting up there and performing is,

Jay Kogen:

What do you mean?

Michael Jamin:

Is there an end to it?

Jay Kogen:

You want, I'm hoping people throw roses at me. That's

Michael Jamin:

My goal. But I don't know. Do you want to turn it into something or do you just enjoy the process of getting up there and performing?

Jay Kogen:

It's improv is cult a cultish comedy religion. So you do it because you learn the skill. It's like if I was a Glassblower and suddenly I learned how to make little glass animals when I was 16 and I still know how to do it and I like it. So I'm doing improv then the goal is to stay loose, keep your mind fresh. It helps improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it and there's a blank piece of paper and you have to be the character who says this other thing, then turn your mind to the other character that says this thing and what are they thinking and how are they acting and how are you being, and what does the scene look like and how do you fill the space with physicality and all the things.

These are the things that you learn from improv and these are the things I still love doing it because it keeps me fresh and reminds me of that. It's fun to create.

Michael Jamin:

And how often do you go up?

Jay Kogen:

The group that I'm working with now go the Transformers. We go up about once a month and then I'm also an improv whore. And I will appear with any other improv group that asks me. Usually the Groundlings has a show called Crazy Uncle Joe and I do that sometimes. Or cooking with gas or sometimes I guess with another group. So it's just fun to work with different people in

Michael Jamin:

When you do that though, I mean, I know it's improv, but is there any kind of rehearsal with these people? Or are you up there for the first time with these people you don't even know.

Jay Kogen:

Again, it's something you've learned. You started by taking courses and saying, okay, this is how you do it. You agree , You know, pretend that you're stand up there and pretend that you're a bumblebee. Right. Okay. What would a bumblebee do? Bumblebee might go from flower to flower. A bumblebee might pollinate a, you just put your mind into the thing. So you slowly work up from the beginnings of improv, which is just agreeing. Then you're in a scene with another bumblebee and now you have to figure out what does one bumblebee want and what does the other bumblebee want in the scene. And you're a skill you develop to listen to what other people are saying, agree with it, add information, have an attitude, have a goal, and don't talk over each other and be physicalize the scene. These are things that you learn how to do over time and if you get good at it, you can do it forever.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and

Michael Jamin:

It's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist. All right. So yeah, you were working, you knew , Tom Maxwell, and you're gonna tell that story.

Jay Kogen:

All right. So yeah, Tom was the runner of director of the Groundlings when I was there, and he had a very distinctive laugh and very distinctive kind of from one of the Carolinas, I forget which one.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I think it was North. Yeah,

Jay Kogen:

North, I think so Carolina. And he was great audience, a great audience. He loved the laugh, was wonderful to have. And he's the guy I interviewed with to get into the Groundlings to start working at the school. And then I worked starting at 16, I started doing the school and didn't get into the Groundlings until I was 18.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, interesting. Wow. So you really did the whole training there and that, Wow. Yeah,

Jay Kogen:

And there was the training we,

Michael Jamin:

I'm sure it was, I actually took a, So Tom was a writer, I think season three of just shooting me. And then he went up co-running it in the later years. And I remember he came in the first day, This is how important improv is. It's like the first day we're breaking a story and I guess he was just showing off and he just starts acting out the scene and doing all the characters. And I was like, look at this guy. Go. And we were all just staring and the writers says, We're all just staring. And I shoot the writers, I was like, Dude, what are you doing? Type start typing because everything he's saying is going into the script.

Jay Kogen:

Well, I've seen a lot of writers do that. James Brooks, James L. Brooks is able to do that. Just pitch out a scene from top to bottom. I mean, it's amazing. It's not, it's downgrading it. It's amazing when people can do that. But yeah, when we were at The Simpsons, we would pitch in character, People would pitch as Homer, pitch as Marge. We were , we used the voice and we were that. So it trains you to sort of pitch a joke and risk having everyone hate it

Michael Jamin:

,

Jay Kogen:

And by being improv,

Michael Jamin:

But it's also when you pitch a joke and it bombs, at least then you improv a funny back, a backup to it.

Jay Kogen:

I guess you can save yourself by acknowledging the bomb or not acknowledging it. It depends on how late its sometimes. Yeah, sometimes there's just silence. . Right, Let's move on, let's go past

Michael Jamin:

It. Tom used to get very cranky around 8:00 PM I think is my bed. , you gotta work till midnight or whatever.

Jay Kogen:

Some people can't do the late nights.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well so how do you go about, even other than working with these other actors, how do you go about developing shows? Do you have a process? What do you think?

Jay Kogen:

Well, anything that inspires you, and then you check it out with your people and say, Is there a show like this already in development? Or do we think that we can attach good people to this thing? So have to figure out how to position it. You have an idea then how do you position it? Who's it for? Can you create auspices to join forces with you to make it a more powerful sale? When's the right time to sell it? All those kind of things go into the mix of that kind of stuff.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And so what do you usually try to team up with a producer? Is that what you, I mean?

Jay Kogen:

Right. This Oversharing project is now with Sharon Hogan's company called Merman Mer. So, so they, especially women's stories. And this is a women's story and it's like it's a good company when you're dealing with the story of women in their late twenties in the sort of dismal landscape of what life is like for them.

Michael Jamin:

. Right. That's so interesting. Yeah. And so, what was I gonna say about that?

Jay Kogen:

I have a show that I'm writing with that I'm helping some newer African American writers with, and we're trying to get Kenya Barris to sign on to be part of this thing. So he's a good auspices for that. And then I have a show about Jewish boys from Encino and Mel Brooks would No joking

Michael Jamin:

About it. Nope, that'd be great. Yeah, I worked with them. I worked with them on Glen Martin. You brought 'em in. I damn, I'm directing Mel Brooks. It was very intimidating.

Jay Kogen:

Now Mel Mels not intimidating, he just won't shut up. But ,

Michael Jamin:

It was still like, I'm telling him directions. Who might be telling Mel Brooks how to play the line? Well,

Jay Kogen:

If he didn't like, like your directions, he'd tell you

Michael Jamin:

,

Jay Kogen:

Yeah, I don't wanna do it. I'm gonna walk over here. Gonna,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, there was definitely the case. I remember I like telling him, ask him to get him again. And he goes, No, no, you got it the first time. I'm like, Sounds good to me. .

Jay Kogen:

We worked with him on the Tracy Oman show and he had a million ideas about what he wanted his character to do and we was just like, Okay, go for it.

Michael Jamin:

Mel Brooks. Wow. Well, so wait, I had a thought, but

Jay Kogen:

To go back to your original question, how do you develop something? Call Reiner the great Carl Reiner speaking. Bob Brooks gave me advice and he said, Figure out the hill. You're standing on that only the vantage point that only you have and make a show about that. So interesting. Make it about your world or your point of view or your, something that's really on your mind that only you can see. And that was his advice. And I thought that was good advice.

Michael Jamin:

And we hear that a lot. It's like, why are you the only people to write this show? And then you gotta think of a reason.

Jay Kogen:

You have to lie and say, Well , this happened to me or this is my thing. But obviously when you're a writer, you're bringing something that's personal to you. It doesn't have to experienced the thing to have experienced the emotion that the thing is connected to. Sometimes the show is about love or sometimes the show is about abandonment or sometimes the show is about lack of credibility or the show is about ego and the specifics of the show are not necessarily the specifics of your life, but that's something that you're very aware of and something that's meaningful to you. And if it's meaningful to you, then it's gonna have a resonance that's gonna count. And that's what I try to do when I write something. It's because I relate to it and I feel it and I feel like there's a truth in it. Right.

Michael Jamin:

These are all good words. And how did you, let's say a show, the remake for Punky Brewster, how did you get involved in that? I'm always wondering how that

Jay Kogen:

Happens. My friends, Steve and Jim Armita had created it and produced it and I'd worked with them on a show called School of Rock and they hired me to help them. I mean that was it a friend a I not, I didn't know anything about punk. Brewster hadn't watched it. Oh, I didn't, no know much about it, but I got to know about it. And so then we tried to make, it had been the development for many, many years. Universal was trying to use their own properties and make something of it. And so that's what happened. It sort of came together over the course of five years.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. See it takes how long it takes.

Jay Kogen:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And now people, I get this question a lot. I don't know if you have a good answer for it, but do you have a preference to do single camera, multi camera animation?

Jay Kogen:

Well, I think it's harder to sell a single camera show. Everybody wants to buy. Every network says they wanna buy a single camera show, but then they don't always buy mean, excuse me, Every network wants to buy, say they wanna buy a multi camera show because it's cheaper, but they always wind up buying single camera shows because they're cooler. And so I'd rather sell the show that gets made. And so right now I'm interested in selling single camera shows. However, I love Multicam. I do like the process, I know it. But I watch many Multicam shows going like, Oh that's great. Tv I think the single camera shows are better cuz they're more like movies. You don't have to lean on jokes quite so much. It's more about the story. If you tell the filmically there's no laugh track. So it's just funny is, and it's different experience. I don't know you when the Multicam, if it will ever pop back as a main force. But it's, see

Michael Jamin:

It'd be nice. Now you, I didn't look, Have you done any direction directing?

Jay Kogen:

Oh yeah, I love directing.

Michael Jamin:

Oh you do?

Jay Kogen:

Okay. It, I would give it up to just direct

Michael Jamin:

Really What You like it that much. A lot of guys, guys haven't given up to. Why do you like that more than writing?

Jay Kogen:

It's collaborative. I'm not alone in a room, I'm given, I have material sometimes I've written the material so I know the intention. But I like working with cameras. I like working with the actors. I'm an actor, I'm an old actor. So I like acting and I like actors and I like working with them and figuring out the big picture and figuring out, making sure that all the pieces in the editing room are there. Having edited many shows now, knowing, okay, we need this reaction and that reaction and we get, this is the joke, this joke needs to be close or this joke needs to be wide or let's have a choice. Those kind of things are great. And when I've directed film, single camera, film action things, they've been great. I love using the camera, I love using stunts, I love using and anything that I can envision. I love storyboarding stuff and making them happen.

Michael Jamin:

Who do you feel you've learned the most from? What directors have taught you the most?

Jay Kogen:

Hitchcock, I mean,

Michael Jamin:

. Sit. Come guys. I hate say,

Jay Kogen:

I mean they're all great. I've learned from every single director we've worked from, I've been lucky enough to work with Jim Burrows and I've been lucky enough to work with,

I mean there's Victor Gonzalez and I've been working just all these directors who know what they're doing. A guy named Jonathan Judge who I work with , who'd really just knows what he's doing. He knows the feeling, he knows how to keep the set alive and people happy. And there's a lot to do when you're director and what and when you're TV director, you're really trying to fulfill the vision of the producers , which is great. And when I direct even on shows that I've executive producing, I'm asking my other writers, Do I have it? Are you good? Are we satisfied? I'm not just saying I got it and I want everybody's opinion. I want to change things if people don't have it. Cause we are only here on the set this moment. I wanna get everything we need to get. And I like being collaborative and I like hearing notes. Unlike when I'm a writer, when I don't want to hear notes. As a director, I love hearing notes. Interesting. I love adjusting. Can we get that? Yes, absolutely. Let's go for it.

Michael Jamin:

That's so funny you say that. Yeah. Writers writers don't like hearing that. Don't the same way. I don't want to hear your notes hard.

Jay Kogen:

I thought about it maybe the thing that I liked and now you don't know whether it's gonna work and neither do why, but let's go with my way. Yeah, that's the general feeling.

Michael Jamin:

And how do you mostly handle Jesus studio notes or network note. And when you turn in a draft from a pilot or whatever, what's your first instinct?

Jay Kogen:

My first instinct is to tell them to fuck off. I hope that instinct . And instead I say, Well that's a good note. Or I put them into three piles, Notes that are good notes and sometimes I get really good notes. Notes that are neutral notes that are just like, you want to go that way versus this way. And they're kind of the same but alright. And notes that are show ruining. So the only notes I will fight about are the show ruining notes,

Michael Jamin:

,

Jay Kogen:

Everything else. I will say thank you and what a great idea and I really appreciate it and I will, cause I wanna be collaborative and I wanna take it, if they think a green couch is better than a blue couch, then if we can get a green couch, let's get a green couch. Yeah, that's fine. We

Michael Jamin:

Call those lateral notes. This note will move the script three feet to the right. It's gonna take, I'm be up all night doing it and alright, I'll do it.

Jay Kogen:

Just do it because they need it and they want it. And it doesn't hurt the show. The ones that hurt the show. You gotta say, now I don't tell me about that. Because I think that thread that you're pulling ruins the show. And so let's talk about the thing about it. If it's a story about somebody adopting a dog and then the dog ruins their life and they say something along the lines of, But maybe the dog is nice. And you go like, Well if the dog is nice, then there's no show because then we don't have the conflict that's at the core of this particular thing. So we're just throwing out the whole show based than that and this, Well, why do you want the dog nicer? Well it's too mean in this thing. So we can then distill moments where they think, okay, it's not having fun watching the dog X, Y, and Z. Let's change those things to be things that are more fun for the executives or other people to watch. Then we can save the show but not do the show ruining note.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Because often you'll get notes from people who don't have much experience in the business and they just have this job, they're giving you notes and you don't want to hurt their feelings, but they don't know how to do it yet. So it's a delicate dance.

Jay Kogen:

And also they're not idiots people, the network executives, every writer likes to think a network executive, they're all idiots have decided to do this other thing. But they could have been writers and they might have been writers in another life and have, the reason they went into it is because they like TV and they like stories and they have an opinion. So embrace them as your partners

Michael Jamin:

That's

Jay Kogen:

Try to make them your partner so that you have a happier existence with everyone.

Michael Jamin:

We both work with Steve Bald Ows and I was surprised to learn that he was an executive for many years. I was like, What? I felt like you've been a SP these years.

Jay Kogen:

I didn't know that, but I'm not shocked he has. You didn't know that leader of an executive? No, didn't he? I would a hundred percent believe him in a nice sweater coming in work as an executive. Great.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I get that. I was shocked. But he told me he thought it was his opinion that all executives really just wanted to be writers.

Jay Kogen:

I think he's right that all they do. And when they give notes, they're saying, What if this is a great idea? They're hoping that you receive their note. It's like, oh that's what a great idea. Thank you for helping me write the show. And so I actually try to receive those notes that way as much as I can.

Michael Jamin:

It's kind of like you also building an ally. It's like the more people you can have think it's their show, then they're gonna help put it on the air and stuff

Jay Kogen:

But not think it's their show. It is their show. They're the people who are shepherding it through the network. They're the people every, it is their show. It's not like it's not us and them, we are them, they're the same people. We have to be a team in order to survive how it's such a weird ass landscape of getting a show on the air and having anybody know it exists and having people see it. So you have to get them their publicity people involved and the network has to like it and put it in a good time slot and care about it. And it's so easy to get lost. You have to take care of your show. You have to really do a good job of bringing it through and get as many allies as you can.

Michael Jamin:

And how do you recommend young writers basically break in now? I mean, cuz the landscape is so different now. What do you tell people?

Jay Kogen:

It's the same. Write something great, keep writing something until it's great, then show that thing to everybody you can. It hasn't changed. Nobody wants to be a salesman when they become a writer, but unfortunately part of being a writer is being a salesman. And so you have to then suck it up and make call people and in a friendly way and get them to read your script. Obviously you call and say, I love your work and will you do me this favor of reading my script? And I would love your notes. Nobody wants your notes. They only want you to say it's the greatest thing in the world and I love you and I wanna hire you. But show your script. Sometimes you'll get notes and sometimes you'll get compliments and sometimes you'll say, this is terrible. And then start again and you know, have to really work hard to get through it. Plus meeting people and expanding your social circle is really important. So fighting a way to join groups and be part of schools or be part, not schools exactly, but be part of communities, professional groups and communities and find your way to expand that way.

Michael Jamin:

So you told people basically to come out to Hollywood too?

Jay Kogen:

Yeah, I mean I don't know how you're gonna do that from Des Moines. I mean

Michael Jamin:

H is not coming to you.

Jay Kogen:

Although if you live in Atlanta, if you live in places where they're making TV shows, it's possible.

Michael Jamin:

But they're still mostly doing the writing out here, aren't they? And

Jay Kogen:

Yeah, but there are lots of production, lots of people. And you can meet people and I don't know, it depends on where you're at. It's, there's a few places where production, you know, can live in New York City. You can live in Atlanta, you might be able to, Toronto and Vancouver. There are places where a lot of shows are being made, so maybe there, but LA is still the place to come, even though it's not, it's hard place to move to. It's expensive and weird and isolating and there's a lot of big parts about it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, so interesting. So great to get your take cuz I don't know, you're kind of saying so many things that I've said, but it's good to hear different.

Jay Kogen:

Isn't it great to hear somebody confirm all your ideas?

Michael Jamin:

I'm not crazy.

Jay Kogen:

Everything you've ever believed.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I have such strong opinions on when I talking to people and I'm like, wow, I could just be stubborn, but this is how I see it. But yeah, it's interesting to hear

Jay Kogen:

You. But I mean it is new and you know, gotta write something new. And if you can get attention to something, if you can put up a show or make a , find a way to get attention to your project, to YouTube, short films, Make something on the TikTok and find out a way to be available and get your stuff out there, then you have a shot. But it's hard. It's hard. I mean it's hard once you have a show on the air, you're your old boss. Levitan has a show called Reboot that's on Hulu, I think. Yeah, I don't know who watches it because who knows It exists. It's probably, you have great cast and an esteemed writing team making it and it will come and it, unless people hear about it, nobody will know.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And one thing I also wanna stress for new writers is like, we're struggling too. We're hustling too. None of it's easy. None of it's guaranteed. It's working it to, I always say you gotta work to break in. Well, but it's too hard. Yeah, don't tell me it's too hard. I know I do it everything.

Jay Kogen:

It is a struggle. And you sort of want gigs coming, possible gigs come and then they go and then they don't happen. And it's hard to get in the rooms and it's all that kinda stuff. And when you're running a show, which I recently, I had a show that I was getting a writing staff for. I had a million phone calls from a million people saying, Hey, you got room. And I had to tell a million of them no. Right. Great people, really great people that I had to say no to because, And so when they say no to me, I understand why it's not the makeup of the room that that's going to make the studio happy. They have to make up a room that's going to make the studio happy. And there's only a limited amount of spaces for people like me. And that's a lot of us who need jobs. So it's an interesting time for that.

Michael Jamin:

So is there anything else? Is there, we can plug you. How can people follow you? I'm so grateful that you did this talk. I'm so interesting.

Jay Kogen:

My plug Jake Hogan at Twitter and Jake Hogan at Facebook and Jake Hogan at Instagram. And I have a TikTok account, but I don't post anything there.

Michael Jamin:

You don't know how to use it.

Jay Kogen:

I don't know how to use it and I'm not interested in making Little, Little,

Michael Jamin:

I think you should do

Jay Kogen:

It. I did a dance.

Michael Jamin:

I think you should do it. Yeah. Get on a trending sounding

Jay Kogen:

Right. But I do, every Friday we do something on my Twitter feed called Philosophy Friday. So on Fridays around four 30, I have a bunch of people we use. I

Michael Jamin:

Gotta follow you on that. I didn't know that. What's about,

Jay Kogen:

Well, we just talk about the life and love and fear and how to overcome the difficulties of the world. Usually I post a question for the week and we can talk about that, but people can also come and just talk about their problems. Now Twitter is famously the most vicious and horrible of all the social media. So my idea was why can't we have a little window of people who are actually nice to each other and care about each other and try to help each other on this platform of shit. And so that's what I've done and I've almost three years into this and know that it's been fun.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Alright, so some people can get in touch with you. That's that's really cool. I got, now I'm gonna be following you on that.

Jay Kogen:

Interesting. And then if you follow me on my social medias, you can see my improv shows when I do them. And yep. You can also follow all your followers. Should listen to Charlie Cogan, who's my son, who's a musician and he just released a new record and I want everybody to hear it on for sure. Or Apple Music or Amazon or wherever it is. Charlie Cogan, K O G E N.

Michael Jamin:

Excellent.

Jay Kogen:

Jake, Not Jake Ogan. It's Jake Cogan and it's Charlie Cogan. So

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I'm glad you cleared that up by cause I was too embarrassed to ask. And what kind of music does he do?

Jay Kogen:

It's mostly Zither music. And what is that? It's just pop, Pop Zither is a terrible, strange instrument. No, it's just pop music. It's really great pop music. I don't know if you like, Do you like Ed Sherin? Interesting. Something like that, but

Michael Jamin:

Not, And so he doesn't wanna go into comedy Ready?

Jay Kogen:

He might, He's really fun. He might and worked on stuff together. But he's really talented musician and he's sort of honed his skills as a music songwriter, singer, music producer. And those are, he's ready to go on that level. He's not good for him ready to go as a comedy writer yet, but he could. Right. Wow. He's college right now. He's studying, so we don't really his sing, his singles come out intermittently, but he's while he is at college.

Michael Jamin:

Oh good. Well let's make him happen. Go listen to him on Spotify.

Jay Kogen:

Charlie Cogan. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Jay, thank you again so much. This is good for me to hear. I dunno if anybody else heard it, but

Jay Kogen:

It was great to hang with you. I'd heard a lot about you and I've seen your videos on the Thes and the weird Instagrams, and that's been amazing. How do you, did you decide to do that stuff

Michael Jamin:

After we get off the air, but basically I was telling my manager, I had a call him the other day and I was telling him what I was doing. He goes on TikTok, he goes, Oh, I know people forward me your videos, . They go, Have you heard of this guy? I was like, Yeah, my client . But yeah,

Jay Kogen:

It's interesting and I think it provides a valuable service, but it seems like it would be a little bit of a time suck, but also just there's value on the other side of it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll talk more about it. But thank you so much. Everyone. Go follow Jake Hogan and his son

Jay Kogen:

And ask me questions. You can reach me at any of these places and I'll answer your questions for free, just like Michael does. How do you like that? What Michael does that I'm gonna start and I'll agree with him on everything he says.

Michael Jamin:

, please. I need it. All right. Done Next time. Thank you so much. And oh yeah, Thank you so much.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

David Litt is the Creator and Showrunner of the hit TV Series King of Queens. He's written on shows like Aaahh!!! Real Monsters, Out of Practice, Big Bang Theory, and more.

David Litt on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0514439/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

David Litt:

The lesson I'd like to impart if there is one. It really is fun to be a wise ass and funny and make everybody laugh. But you gotta bring something to the table or you're just gonna get fired. Yeah. Yeah. You've great to be funny and crazy and do bits and hopefully bring up the level of people's spirits in the room because it can get Yeah. It get arduous. Yeah. Yeah. But if that's all you do and you're not contributing, you're gonna be extraction and you're gonna get, so that, that's something that gets earned over time.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, it's Michael Jam and welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a very, very special guest today. This is my old friend David Lit, who is the creator of perhaps one of the last giant hit multi-camera sitcoms. King of Queens. King of Queens. That's, there really haven't been too many multi-camera hits. There's been a couple, but not many. And so here he is, David

David Litt:

And not many that have run 25 years continuously.

Michael Jamin:

You mean still in syndication? You mean still running somewhere? Still

David Litt:

Never been off the air since 98.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Well we're gonna get to all that. I want hear. Let me just give you a little bit of roll up. So, cuz I want people gonna wanna know what else you had done. So you actually wrote on Real Monsters, which is My wife was a voice on that show. I think we talked about that. She was Dizzle

David Litt:

Dizzle, Yeah. Now that character may have left. I left to do a sketch show.

Michael Jamin:

What show

David Litt:

Was that? After? About six months. So I was there, but was I o uh and Crumb.

Michael Jamin:

Crumb. Interesting now. Okay.

David Litt:

Great place to work, by the way, for anybody who has the opportunity.

Michael Jamin:

What in Kids

David Litt:

Classy.

Michael Jamin:

What's that? Where you cut out?

David Litt:

I dunno, Classy Cupo. Oh yeah. A great place to

Michael Jamin:

Work. But they, Are they still making stuff though?

David Litt:

I don't know. They used to rug wraps. I don't know if they still do, but they're unbelievably opposite and really great to creatives. And

Michael Jamin:

So, in other words, if we can build a time

David Litt:

Machine, My first,

Michael Jamin:

So your advice,

David Litt:

My first job I got was on a Real Monsters and the earthquake hit the first day I started. Right. The North Northridge quite there. So to their credit, they paid everybody, even though they were closed for a couple of weeks. They paid everybody.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. They were in the studio too. How well did you get that job? Cause okay, let's start from the beginning. You're from Queens. You live that life of King, right? And so we'll get there, but how did you get your first job On writing?

David Litt:

Yeah. I don't like to brag by telling people I'm from Queens, but Yep. You can't hide. I am

Michael Jamin:

.

David Litt:

. Not obvious.

How did I get that job? Here's how I fast forwarding a little bit. I moved from New York to LA the first week or two I was there. I made a commitment. I was gonna go to every party I got invited to. Cause I'm not a party guy. I don't like going to these, but I felt like I had to make friends. I needed to meet people. So somebody, a friend of a friend said, Hey, come to this party out in the Palisades. I said, Okay. I meet this kind of diminutive little woman. Little girl. Very sweet. We chatted for an hour and I go home and I get a call the following day from her and my ego. I'm thinking, Oh ha, she's totally into me,

Michael Jamin:

.

David Litt:

But she wasn't, as it turned out, she wasn't into me at all. But she had a job for me and wanted to know if I was interested in it or not. And of course, little did she know I was living on my credit cards. I was literally, I had four credit cards maxed. And I was taking cash off the fifth to pay the four. Did

Michael Jamin:

You have any

David Litt:

Kinda, And she was going, Are you interested? It was, by the way, I still remember it was 2000. It was 2000 a week. And I was like, Yeah, I'm interested,

Michael Jamin:

But you wait. She and she worked for Klasky Shpo.

David Litt:

Her name was Laverne McKinnon. A shout out to her. She made my career, She made my life. I mean, she took a chance. She didn't know me from shit. She just thought, Oh, this guy's buddy.

Michael Jamin:

And you had a script ready. She must have read your script.

David Litt:

No, not at that point. She subsequently read something. But at that point it was like she was going on instinct. Like, Oh, this guy made me laugh. Wow. We have a comedy coming up and she, let's bring him in and meet with

Michael Jamin:

Him. And so she worked with in development at, She

David Litt:

Was right underneath Arlene and Klasky and gpo. That's the Klasky and the Tupo.

Michael Jamin:

And they're the producers of that, the show that, But how long had you been in LA at that point? And how were you making a living before that at all?

David Litt:

Let me think. Yeah, she was okay. I had literally just gotten out here. I was living in New York and I was working in advertising and I was writing sketches sat, I was writing sketches for Saturday Night Live. They didn't know I was writing sketches for them, but I was doing it right. Somebody I knew and a manager named Barry Secunda. Okay. He managed Franken and Davis and another guy I feel like I owe a lot to because he didn't hang up on me. He didn't like, He said, Come in, let me read your stuff. He read all my shitty sketches that were, at the time I thought, this is genius. Now, when I read them now, I'm like, no. Yeah. So he hooked me up with a manager here in LA that he knew. And he was very encouraging.

This is Barry . He said, Look, your stuff is great. You have the potential, but you've gotta get out to California. You cannot be a full-time comedy writer from New York. It's very difficult. And that's one thing when people call me for advice, I always ask them, A lot of people, the main thing, they don't wanna move away from their family, their home, their friends. That's the scariest thing you could do , but you've got to be ready to do it because you're very, very likely not gonna get a job if you're not in Los Angeles. I say this all the time, once you get good in Los Angeles, once you get Michael Jamin level, you can live anywhere in the world. Yeah. Not you a different Michael Jam. Yeah. That I have to.

So I, at that point, I made the choice, I'm gonna move. And luckily I had supportive parents. They were like, Here's five grand, go move and chase your dream. They didn't make fun of me or tell me not to do it. Or I bought ps. It's not like I had much choice. I had one semester of Queens College . I had no other real alternatives. So you think not like I'm dropping at med school. . So then I got here, and at that first, Let me think. Yeah, pretty much the first week I was here is when I met Laverne and got that job. Maybe it was two weeks.

I don't know if I, Did I ever tell you the story of I moved from New York, I give up the most phenomenal studio rent. Anyone who knows New York, it's such incredible thing to get a rent controlled or rent stabilized apartment. I still remember $580 a month for a gorgeous studio. They had just redone it, knew everything. And I had to make a choice. Do I leave this and move? I mean, I would still be living in that apartment. So finally I got the guts to move. Okay. My agent, what happened is, I'll give a little secret, I don't even know if they do this anymore, but there's something they made back then called the Hollywood Created Directory. Right? It was a big green book and it had all the agents in it, their phone numbers, what agencies they were with. So what I would do every day after my day, my shitty day job, which made me wanna hang myself in advertising. I worked at CBS with a couple of very nice people. They were not the problem. I was the problem , just get that outta the way.

So I went out to a couple of agents in la, about three or four of 'em said, We really love your material. I was shocked. I didn't think I was going to get any agent. And as it is, I wound up getting my pick of about three or four, Not a level, but d plus level. Some pretty good agents. What we now would probably call boutique agents. The somebody at Broer was interested. Broer Carlin. Yeah. Yeah. So, right. Yeah. I mean, you of what I speak, but listen to this. It gets so great. I decide to load. I've never been to Los Angeles in my life. I load everything up on a truck. My buddy, I know one person in la he goes, Stay on my couch until you find yourself an apartment. It's fine. I said, Okay, great. I appreciate it. I get out here, The agent that decided to take me on, I don't know if I should give her name or not, but she says, I want you to meet me. There was a place called Cafe Fro. Yes. I don't know if you remember it. It was on Melrose. It was a big in West Hollywood. In West Hollywood. And I was, like I said, doing the multiple credit card thing. And I needed a job. So I had just applied there to Cafe Fro and they were about to start me on Monday. . So here I am, meeting with my agent on a Wednesday, Thursday.

So I'm right now, picture this, My stuff is still on a moving truck coming across the country with no destination because I haven't found an apartment yet. I'm going to look for an apartment and I'm gonna then call the moving company and say, Here's where you need to deliver to. So in the meantime, over lunch, as we're having lunch, this agent is acting kind of odd. And I'm like, Why is she acting so weird? So finally it comes out, she says, Listen, I need to let you know I'm leaving the agency. It was innovative artists. She goes, I'm leaving the agency. And I'm like, I'm not joking. I just got there. Hadn't been there 24 hours. Right? I'm like, Okay, well I'll go with you. Where are you going? She says, No, I'm leaving the business entirely and I'm suing them for sexual harassment. I, we'll have to get the name afterwards. Cause I think you may have had the same agent. .

So she . I'm not joking. . Well, I have to say that we turned out to be good friends as time went on. I don't wanna give too many specifics, but we'll talk after. Yeah, yeah. We'll talk off the air. But the good stuff is off the air. I don't want the four people listening to know . But what happened is, and by the way, tapping this whole thing, when we get outside to get our cars, she goes, Do you have money? I don't have any money and I can't pay the valet part. , I pay for her valet. But here's where the story turns into a positive. So I called all the agents back that I had that had been willing to take me on and that I had passed on. And I told them what happened. I said, I came out da da blah blah. Luckily I had left it on good terms. And I did wind up connecting with a great agent at Premier Artists . Her name was Susan Sussman. Okay. A great one of those agents that knows how to start people on their way to their first job. This is back in the days when people had actual patience with your career and would nurture you along and you know, remember that baby.

And she was great. And that was when I fortuitously met this woman from Klasky, Cheapo and I, within two days or something, I called Susan Sussman and I said, Look, I think I may have a job. Can you negotiate this for me? . And the rest was history. She took me on. And that was that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But then why did you leave real monsters so quickly though?

David Litt:

I left Real monsters because I, It was a real Monsters was a Nickelodeon children show. And that wasn't, while it was writing and a great introductory job, it wasn't my dream. I mean, I didn't come out to write children's comedy and you who know me, that's not really my wheelhouse. Right. I

Michael Jamin:

Should go.

David Litt:

Yeah. I left because I had gotten through a friend a contact to do this show called The News. It was a takeoff of Saturday Night Live directed by the son of Don Wilson who direct Saturday Night Live. His name was Michael Wilson. He was the producer of the news. And it was sketch shows

And we had so much fun. It was such a great gig. It was like everyone off in their offices writing sketches, . And then what would happen is every three weeks we all went down to Florida to Orlando for budget reasons and we shot on whatever that dolly would, or whatever it was. Some sound stages down there. Wow. It was such a great gig. So much fun. Now I would probably be a little snobby about it, but at the time it was just a great job. And we would write all the sketches in LA at Sunset Gour. Right. Some of the writers would write one or two sketches with each other, sell 'em alone. And the best sketches made it down to Florida and got

Michael Jamin:

What became of some of those.

David Litt:

Got writing, got on the air.

Michael Jamin:

Cause a sketch writing is so specific. Did many of them go onto sitcom writing or are you in touch with any of them?

David Litt:

I'm in touch with a couple of them. Not many made the transition.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

David Litt:

I guess. What are they doing now? Trying to think. There's not a lot of sketch work for people. So if you can't do it, you're screwed. I mean, if you can't do something else, what are you gonna do? There's not a lot of work for, Yeah, I mean Sketch is a very, very specific art that you either get it or you don't. How to end the sketch. Right. Sometimes there is no end and you just chop it off in a very douchey, uncomfortable way. Right. I'm sure everyone is seeing those sketches where you're like, Wait, that's the ending . But that said, it was the kind of job where you went in. You did as well as you let yourself do. There was no one looking at their

David Litt:

watch.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jam.com/watchlist.

David Litt:

Okay. So were, I'm sorry. So you were saying you were working as a property manager? It was reaching a point though, where I was, it was so tempting to have free rent, but I was getting pulled in two directions. It was like I'm getting my sketches on the air and I'm getting a call. My toilet is Blo . So I'm like running home from a table read to fix a toilet. So finally, again, much New York, I had to make a hard choice and get away from the comfortable, these look pretty good on me and get away from the comfortable. And I quit the job and I wound up getting, moving out, getting an apartment. And that was that. Then from there, let me think from there, Oh yeah, then I wrote an Ellen Spec, Remember Ellen? Of course with Ari Gross. And I love that show.

And by the way here, this is a great lesson for anyone who cares enough to listen to what I'm saying. , a lot of times people say, I wrote a lot of specs. I probably wrote about 12 or 15 specs. I wrote a Herman's head. I wrote a lot of just shows I really liked. I didn't worry so much about will it get made, Will it, I just knew it was like sharpening my knife. And I wrote an Ellen, which everybody was like, Why are you writing an Ellen? No one's watching it. It's not, Back then the big ones were mad about you and mm-hmm Seinfeld. And I said, I just love it. I don't know. I mean, I love it so I wanna write it. And so I wrote it. And then Michael Whitehorn, who I co-created King of Queens with, he and I had already worked together on a show called, He had hired me on a show called Ned and Stacy with Tom Church.

Michael Jamin:

That was another great show.

David Litt:

Yeah. I loved it. It was a lot of fun. Michael was a great teacher and mentor. He would let me come to the mixes. I, I was still a staff writer at that point and he was bringing me to the mixes to,

Michael Jamin:

Or just you. Did he take, did he really just,

David Litt:

He was taking anybody who felt they wanted to go. A lot of people just wanted to go home after a long day. But if you were really dedicated and wanted to learn, he was 100% about including you and explaining how come you're doing that? Why can't you, can't we do it this way? And he would explain and it made some really just dumb questions. I would ask him. And he was great. And I think from Ned and Stacy it became obvious. We worked well together, . So that when King of Queens came along, he was very open to writing something together. Sony had a standup comic on stand or whatever, a holding deal,

Which was Kevin James and Michael called me and he said, Look, I found this comic, I think he's pretty special. What do you think? And I watched it and I thought he was incredible too. Now, if I'm being honest, I needed the gig. I probably would've said he was incredible no matter what. But he was, you could just tell Kevin was special. So the next thing, Michael and I are writing this pilot together and that was another great experience. We wrote the whole thing in three weeks, . It took no time at all. It was, you know how it is, even with songwriters at least talk about

Michael Jamin:

David Litt:

When they write a great song, it doesn't take it take a month, it takes 10 minutes. Right.

Michael Jamin:

But what's

David Litt:

Interesting is, and that's how

Michael Jamin:

But you like, Sorry, go ahead. Well what's interesting is because was his cloud, he had a good idea, but he also, you needed him, right? Because he had a lot more clout. He was

David Litt:

Way bigger. Oh yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

David Litt:

Yeah, very much so.

Michael Jamin:

Some of those people think, Well how am I, do I sell my show? But they're like people off the street, you know, have to find someone who's in the position who can sell a show.

David Litt:

Yeah. I mean, without getting into too many specifics, I will say that after N and Stacy, I was sort of the golden child in the new writers that were out here. I was a little bit sought after and I got on a show that doesn't need to be named, but it was for me, it started out as one show and became another. And I just felt like, hey, this isn't what I signed on to do. . And that made them very angry. Coming from New York thought I'm going to use the honesty approach and I'm just gonna tell it. It is, Well it would've been better for me just to say my uncle died and I gotta leave instead of the truth. Because the truth hurt. The truth was rather they kept asking me, In fact, I remember, what show are you going to? What did you get an offer? I kept saying, I don't have any other offer. It's not about another show. I had the balls even at that point.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You ever do that now, Ever?

David Litt:

I don't think so.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

David Litt:

I don't think I would now. But at that time I just was filled with myself enough that I said, So what happened was, in that interim is when Kevin, as, when Michael came to me with Kevin

Michael Jamin:

David Litt:

And the studio was the same studio of the show, I just left and they were not having it. They were like, We want you never to work again. We intend on ruining you. We want to squash you like a bug. They were very upset at my hubris that I had said they were done. To Michael's credit, he fought for me. I mean, he didn't have to , but he went to the mat. He was like, Look, if you don't bring David in on this, I I'm not gonna write it.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. And that show made a ton of your show made a ton of money for the studio.

David Litt:

It did. It did well, yeah. Yes it did very well. Yeah. It changed my life. He changed my li Michael changed my life

Michael Jamin:

And then, Okay, go on. Do you wanna tell a little more more of that, Creating King Queens or getting it how the pilot shot and I'm sure people want to hear your

David Litt:

Yeah, sure. Yeah, we wrote the pilot, like I said, it took two or three weeks. It just flowed. It was like

Michael Jamin:

Then casting it. Okay, you had Kevin for sure and then you had a

David Litt:

Casting. Well we'd already had Kevin and we knew, well the second we met with Leah, we knew that's our couple.

Michael Jamin:

We

David Litt:

Had tried to get Jerry Stiller, but he didn't wanna do it. Initially he was coming off of

Michael Jamin:

Seinfeld,

David Litt:

Seinfeld and he just didn't really wanna do another series. But when he read the script, I guess it clicked. He got it. So once we had those three in place, it came together at that point. How

Michael Jamin:

Were the ratings in the beginning when you finally got on the air?

David Litt:

The ratings in the beginning were solid but not stellar. We built pretty well. The thing that benefited us a lot was being Kevin, being friends with Ray Ram Romano,

Michael Jamin:

David Litt:

Kevin doing guest spots on Ray's show. There was a lot of crossover and a lot of helping hands and it made it a lot easier to stick around a while and do crossovers cuz they were in each other's worlds.

Michael Jamin:

It's so sad cuz those days are over. Those days. Are those, It just seems like it's, Yeah,

David Litt:

It is kind of sad. I mean it's unfortunate because it's a great format if you do it right and not a hacky old fashioned way

Michael Jamin:

Then okay, so you did that show 200 or so episodes cause that, Okay, I wanna say how I met you. I met you, we on, I was on out of practice, we were both on, and I guess we brought as a consultant, you were full time in out practice, right?

David Litt:

I had an overall deal at Paramount. Right. And they assigned me to out of practice, I think it was like two days or three days a week.

Michael Jamin:

And I remember being on that show, that was Chris Lloyd and joking and Chris Lloyd, he later co-created Modern Family. Chris Lloyd, he Rand Frazier. He has more Emmys on. He has a mantle full of Emmys like that.

David Litt:

Yeah. Chris is a

Michael Jamin:

Emmys. And so Chris is really one of the most highly regarded writers in Hollywood comedy writers in Hollywood. And I just remember, and I couldn't be remembering that wrong, but in my memory meeting you, this is how you would write a scene if you wanted to have a comedy writer join , a TV show, if you're writing a scene, a comedy writer enters a room. This is how you would've written it. Cause I remember we were working on a story and you were late and you came in your faces, you burst into the door, we're working. So suddenly the door flies open and then your face is kind of red because you're, you're probably running through the parking lot cause you're gonna be late and you're carry couple of boxes of gum gum and the room was false silent. Right. Cause you just in, you're like, Sorry I'm late. And then I think I was the first to break the silence. I was like, Oh, okay. You the gum. Right? And you Yeah. And you without missing. Yeah. Yeah. I got plenty of gum. Don't worry about the gum and you just it down.

I, the rumor was that you were brought onto the show because, so some comedy writers are, they're not very funny in real life, but they can write a scene. They know how to be funny on paper. And then some commentaries just are just funny the minute you meet them . Right. And that was you. And you came in and it was really part of it was like this guy David, he's, we want him cuz he's gonna lighten the mood. He's just kind of, he's got . He's gonna lighten the mood in the room. And that's exactly what you did every day. It was always like . I mean, I can't remember. There's so many. Well

David Litt:

It's funny because I loved, I really surprised myself with how much I loved working with Joe Keenan and Chris Lloyd. Yeah. Their reputation was a little bit maybe serious. Yeah. But fra, they weren't like jokes.

Michael Jamin:

What'd

David Litt:

You say?

Michael Jamin:

They were the Frazier guys. So they had this reputation of being kind of these very smart and serious writers. And they certainly were both are amazing, amazingly talented writers. Oh yes. Had the seriousness about 'em. And you were brought on almost like the comic relief to the comedy verse .

David Litt:

Yeah. I think they enjoyed me. I was the fun monkey.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And it was because that was, you had already had your King of Queens money. , like none of us had that money in our back pocket. But

David Litt:

Right. Everybody was nervous.

Michael Jamin:

We were worried about being fired. Right.

David Litt:

Yeah, you're right. I was a little more relaxed cuz I wasn't sweating it so much. But once I got to know them, I wanted to do a great job for them.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I remember one time, this is one of my favorite stories, is that we're stuck on a story beat. We're stuck on this thing for, I don't know, an hours or whatever, we're struggling this beat. And then you kind of broke the silence. You go, okay, here's the bad version. Let me tell you the bad version of the scene. And then you had spent five minutes laying out what you thought, what's the hackiest worst version of the scene? . And then Chris Lloyd just looks at you. He goes, What's the good version? And you just go, Oh, I don't have that . And you always fucking lost it. Oh my God. It was so funny. Oh my God. Was

David Litt:

That the room where I used to have some funny bits that I would literally take around different rooms in there? Yeah. I'm trying to remember, was that the one where I would do milk and cookies time where I would stop for a minute, just totally, No, I would say to Chris, I'd go, Chris, it's milk and cookies time. And he'd go, Okay, go ahead. And I would literally just shut off and have milk and cookies at my desk while everybody else continued to work. It was so funny.

Michael Jamin:

, I remember you coming in. I remember you. I mean, I remember you coming in, you were one of the first people to buy an iPhone. And I think you came in with, I think you upgraded to an iPhone too. And you came go like this iPhone too is gonna change my life. It's gonna change my life. And I said, I think I said no. But you said the same thing about the first time you got the first iPhone and the iPhone. You go, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I said that. But I mean it now. I mean , you really the two . I know I said it before, but the two, it's gonna change my life. the

David Litt:

Two is the one

Michael Jamin:

. You're writing so much. Oh my God, you just made everyone laugh so much. I remember one time, , maybe I shouldn't even say it, but I'm gonna say it anyway unless you tell me to cut it out. We were on the stage floor watching rehearsal and you lean over to me real quietly and you go, Do you think Chris would mind if I flew to New York now , I think he would. Cause he's, he's paying you, He wants here for the rewrite. And you go, Yeah, yeah, you're probably right. And that was the last I heard of it. And then we go back to the room and you're nowhere to be found . And then you phone rings a couple hours later and I'm like, Hey man, where are you? You go, I'm at the airport. I'm getting on a plane. I can't talk. Tell Chris I'm not gonna make it

David Litt:

.

Michael Jamin:

It's just so funny. And we were just all just laughing about it. Everyone throws the funniest bossiest thing. Yeah, you're right. You'd get mad.

David Litt:

I did. I pulled a great one. I was on, according to Jim and the way they work there, each room would take a half of the script and go off. And I remember it was like we had our half and we were all working and one day after, I don't know, we were maybe 10 pages in. I got up and I to go to the ostensibly to go to the bathroom. But instead I couldn't fight the urge to just keep going to my car and go home.

Michael Jamin:

. I couldn't find it.

David Litt:

So I get home and there's the greatest messages from the producer of the show going, David, I It's Suzanne, you just left to go to the bathroom and you haven't come back yet. We're just getting concerned. So I guess we'll see in a couple minutes and then another 10 minutes. Another message. David, it's Suzanne, did you let us know what happened? You're not back here and we're getting worried. And then the third message was like, Did you go home? Oh

Michael Jamin:

Like, wait, did you get in trouble for doing that?

David Litt:

I did not.

Michael Jamin:

, I did not. See if you're funny enough you can get away with this stuff. I would. Well

David Litt:

That's what the lesson I'd like to impart. If there is one, it, it's really is fun to be a wise ass and funny and make everybody laugh. But you've gotta bring something to the table or you're just gonna get fired.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

David Litt:

Yeah. You've great to be funny and crazy and do bits and hopefully bring up the level of people's spirits in the room because it can get arduous.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

David Litt:

But if that's all you do and you're not contributing, you're gonna be abstracted and you're gonna get So that that's something that gets earned over time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, for sure. Then well what? And so, oh God, that just hurts. It hurts my stomach. Thinking how funny that was .

David Litt:

Tell 'em the story about the, what do you call it? The drone.

Michael Jamin:

The drone.

David Litt:

Was that with you? Where I brought a drone in on Oh no wait, that was Big bang.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You right. I should mention these are you also worked on Big Bang for a little bit. What'd you do? What was that story?

David Litt:

Yeah, who was that if it wasn't you, Chef? Well I bought a drone . Okay. And at the time they were very new. They go up a hundred feet and over. And so I bring it in

And I'm like, Hey guys, how neat are these? And it was another writing group. Oh I know who it was. It was, Do you know Peter? Oh God. Shit. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You would know him. But we all went outside to use this brand new technology. So I'm like Guys, check it out. Next thing we know I let it goes up and continues to go up. I couldn't get it to go down and we lost it in the sun. We're looking and we never found it. It just got stuck in the treetop. It's probably still there.

Michael Jamin:

.

David Litt:

It was like $120 drone. I used it once to make it go hundred feet in the air. I never saw it again. That was the fun we had

Michael Jamin:

. Oh my God. Oh yeah. I mean that's the people don't it really sitcom. Right. Really is a fun job if you're with funny people. But it's not so funny.

David Litt:

It's a great job. I don't know. People need to understand. I am a dinosaur. I mean the experiences I had you probably wouldn't have anymore.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I think so.

David Litt:

Which is a real shame because it's comedy and it should be fun.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Funny. Cause we, Jay Cogan did, Do you know Jay? Have you worked with Jay?

David Litt:

Yeah, of course. I've never, Okay. I worked with Jay on Den Stacy.

Michael Jamin:

Oh wow. He, because he did this podcast a couple a week or two ago and he kind of said the same thing. Rooms have tend to change that he would do a lot of room bits and you kind of really can't really do so many of those room bids anymore. But for what it's worth better or worse. But the world has changed. And I don't remember, I even remember after out of practice, you really wanted to do, you just wanted to consult. You wanted to come in a couple days a week and consult, which was something you could do a couple years before you could. There was some demand for that. And now there's just no room for that anymore.

David Litt:

Yeah. The real EM emeritus writers, the writers that were really looked up to, could get a job a day on doing punch up on one show a day on another . And those times right around then went away and there were no more jobs to be had of that Ill, Yeah, I mean that was my complete, my absolute dream was to be able to go to one show two days a week and maybe another show, another two days a week and have fun and have a great time. But the budgets at that time started shrinking. And the allowance for somebody to come in one day a week just wasn't there.

Michael Jamin:

Part of, I think about that part of the benefit, what we had when we were coming up is that we almost came through in a school. You get on a sitcom, you learn from the people who had a ton of experience before you and everyone kind of came from the school and you learn the craft from people before you.

David Litt:

Mm-hmm

Michael Jamin:

, that doesn't really exist anymore cuz those shows don't exist. So you know, you're winging it a little bit, but if you're a young writer, you're kind of winging it.

David Litt:

There's also a bit of a scary environment now. I think there's a lot of competition. and it, it's putting somebody under your wing and being patient with them is you don't see it as much because you could be costing yourself the job. You could be training somebody to take a job away from you.

Michael Jamin:

Well also, I don't know mean maybe, I don't know. My experience is that the orders are shorter. You're not gonna be on Aer if you're on a street show. You might be doing 10 weeks out of the year or whatever. You're not doing, you're working weeks or 40 weeks. You're working . So know you're what you got going on in there correctly. gonna nothing. What do you having a pastrami sandwich. . All right. So what do you do now? What? I know you were developing on the side, you're constantly working on stuff. What's going on there?

David Litt:

Write it down. I'm being a little lazy. I should be better at what I'm doing. But I'm working on a screenplay. I had a screenplay idea, and that was my next step was I wanted to become a script doctor. I really wanted to come in and do and fix screenplays, punch them up, et cetera.

Michael Jamin:

Right. I dunno how many there is for that either.

David Litt:

I don't either. Mean, my feeling is like, do what you love and do the best you can at it. And don't worry so much about the money. I have the luxury to be able to do that.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

David Litt:

But , I really love, my dream would be to get a call and come in and work a couple of days a week on punching this script up or making that script funny. But for now, I like working on an idea. I had an idea that kind of hit me. That's something I wanna finish. So that's what I'm doing right now. And it's great cuz your time's your own, you know, can work on it in the morning and do whatever you want later in the day. I'm also trying to do some dog rescue stuff.

Michael Jamin:

You're a dog rescue, so you walk around with a net into alleys.

David Litt:

. Yes. It's like in the cartoons with the big cargo net. No, I found out this horrifying thing that there are these wet markets in China that eat dogs. Alive. Alive.

Michael Jamin:

Alive. That's alive. That's too fresh.

David Litt:

That's too fresh. Yeah. . So I've wanted to start volunteering for dogs for a while. So I'm thinking about, I've been taking care of a cat for the past four months. She has since disappeared as of last week. I can't find her anymore.

Michael Jamin:

Taking care is not the right word then. . Yeah.

David Litt:

No taking bad care. But the writing is something I will never stop doing. I mean, I love it. Some days, even a week, I might go and get lazy and drop off, but it keeps me sane. It's a fun way to keep your imagination going and it's really a different thing when you're doing it for yourself as opposed to as a job or to make money or to pay your bills. That's a different set of stress and responsibilities. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have any other advice for new aspiring writers?

David Litt:

Any advice for what?

Michael Jamin:

New and a new and upcoming writers.

David Litt:

It is a great way to make a living. There is nothing more satisfying than making a living as a writer, but just stick with it. Don't treat it like something you do when you feel like it. If you wanna write, give yourself hours. I don't know how you guys write, but I make sure I'm in front of that computer. At least three, four hours a day. 11 till two, 11 till three. And if nothing comes at all fine. But I was there trying to write. Sometimes you're gonna get something great and sometimes you're not, but you gotta put the time in to do it.

Michael Jamin:

Absolutely right. David led, creator of co-creative, King of Queens, a friend for many years. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with this podcast here with everyone. I really appreciate.

David Litt:

Thank you for having me. I like,

Michael Jamin:

Right. That's it everyone. So thank you for listening. If you, again, I'm gonna plug what else we got going on here. If you want to sign up for my free weekly newsletter, it's michaeljamin.com/watchlist to find out what's going on there. And yeah, that's it. Oh, and I dunno when this is gonna drop, but of course I got for my touring schedule to see me see my one man show A Paper Orchestra. You can go to MichaelJamin.com/Live upcoming sign up there. Right. Everyone, thank you so much and thank you again, David Litt.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. One more thing. Come see me perform. I'm going to be in Boston area, actually Amesbury, Massachusetts on November 12th and 13th at the Actor studio performing my show, a paper orchestra. And then I'm gonna be back in Los Angeles on December 10th and 11th again at the Moving Arts Theater Company. So tickets are on sale. Go get 'em at michael jamin.com/live. It's a small, intimate venue. I'm gonna be performing for my collection of personal essays and each one's gonna be followed by like a 20 minute q and a. We get to talk about the work. It's a fun event. So I hope to see you there. Go get them tickets again are at michaeljamin.com/live and of course, sign up to my weekly newsletter. That's called the Watch List at michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhillAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Award-winning, writer, director, actress Christina began her career acting in such cult films as Suburbia, Boys next door and Dudes. She was one of three women accepted into Fox Searchlights new director s program, her IFP nominated Best screenplay, debut feature, PERFECTION was part of their rough-cut labs, Independent film week and winner of The Adrienne Shelly female directing award.

PERFECTION screened at The Oxford film festival where Christina won Best Actor and Best Narrative feature and also screened in the San Francisco International Women’s film festival, the USA film festival in Dallas, Texas, The Egyptian theatre in Hollywood, CA, premiered at the RIO cinema London, The Quad cinema, New York and screened at The Laemmle’ s Monica 4plex in Santa Monica, CA.

Christina has sat on the juries for the London feminist film festival, the Eastern European film festival, the 100 word film festival, NC and has served head of the jury at the USA film festival, Dallas.

Her upcoming projects include, EXPECTING GRACE set in Marseilles France, her short, HOOKER #2 and the punk rock pilot, POSEUR. Christina has lectured at The New York film academy, The Met School, London, Harvard Westlake, Cal State Fullerton and is an adjunct professor at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles in the film and television department.

Christina Beck's Website - https://www.christinabeck.com

Christina Beck on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cbrubylee_xtinabeck/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Transcripts Are Auto-Generated

Christina Beck:

I always say to my students, Pick stories that you love. Pick stories that you feel like you have to tell because you're gonna be living with that story and pitching that story way beyond the script. You're gonna be pitching it for grants, you're gonna be pitching it for festivals, you're gonna be pitching it for people to watch it online. You're forever pitching these stories. But to say something visually is powerful. I think it can change minds and hearts.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters Need To Hear This with Michael Jen. Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin and you're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This. We got a special guest for you today. If you are an indie filmmaker, an aspiring indie filmmaker, you're gonna wanna listen to this. You're gonna wanna meet Christina Beck, who I've known forever. She's an old friend, independent filmmaker, but she's you. She also teaches at Loyola Marmont University and the Fame Stella Adler Theater where she teaches screen screenwriting as well as film producing filmmaking, all that stuff. Well Christina, welcome to the big show.

Christina Beck:

Thank you. Thank you so much. I was gonna call you Mr. Jam and it's a habit. I can't help it.

Michael Jamin:

It's a habit. There it is. Cause cuz Christina briefly worked for me as an assistant for me and my partner on a show. And then I force you to call me Mr. Jamin

Christina Beck:

. it just kind of fell into this thing. Yeah, no, you did not force me. You didn't force me at all.

Michael Jamin:

I never did that.

Christina Beck:

But I will correct you Mr. Jamin. So I actually don't teach at Stella Adler. I teach at least Strassburg, but I could see where you would choose that. Oh, at least Strasberg. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Just I would think,

Christina Beck:

Right. Well, they're all,

Michael Jamin:

They're East Strasberg. Go to that one.

Christina Beck:

Yeah, but sad. They're not around anymore. But the legacies are for sure.

Michael Jamin:

I haven't been to West Hollywood forever. Yeah. And you guys see, you got your one sheet from, That's from Perfection. Let's talk about what you're at, some of your movies that you've done, cuz Christina is an indie filmmaker. She's a hustler. She makes her movie, she writes your stuff. You also started as an actor, right? Where, let's take me back to the beginning. You basically started, you wanted to be an actress, right?

Christina Beck:

Yes, yes. Yeah. So I grew up here in Hollywood, actually not in Hollywood. I grew up in the Valley. Let's get real about that. So I like to call it the main streets of Studio City. And although it was very different back then, I know today it's a unaffordable, you can't even get in there. But back in the day it was the suburbs, basically. And my folks were in show business. My father was a screenwriter and an actor, and my mother was an actress, a model kind of actress. She ended up studying in New York with some very significant people. Sandy Meisner had a full scholarship for the Neighborhood Playhouse, which was a big deal back in those days. But my beginning with acting really started just as a kid. being extremely bored in the valley and putting on shows. I was that kid. I was putting on shows, arranging the stuffed animals. If we ever had company, they were held hostage to my extravagant. Really? Yeah. It was Cabaret 24 7 and . I know. Yeah. You didn't know that about me. Yep. I didn't know that. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I also didn't know your dad was a screenwriter. I didn't know that as well. Did he work a

Christina Beck:

Lot? Yes, he didn't work a lot as a screenwriter. He worked a lot as an actor. So when he came out to Hollywood, he's from Texas originally, and he came out to Hollywood and straight away got signed to William Morris, got put under contract at Universal and did a bunch of movies. But then he did westerns. I always played the bad guy on Bonanza and

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, Christina, I didn't know your Hollywood royalty Well,

Christina Beck:

A little bit, yeah. Yeah. Oh wow. Definitely the lineage is there. Yeah. But his real love was screenwriting. He didn't love acting. He really did fall into it. And he had a great look and he was a cowboy, so he played a cowboy, but he wasn't even really a cowboy. He's just from Texas. But yeah, there's this really great story. So Robert Blake, who some of us know strange stuff all around that guy. But that said, back in the fifties, he was friends with my father was friends with him, and Robert Blake had a part where he had to ride a horse. And my dad said, All right buddy, I'll take you out. And they went to, I think probably, well, I don't know what it's called now, but it used to be called Pickwick, which is in Burbank near Disney. They went out over there and not only did he teach him how to ride a horse, he helped him learn his lines. And because I heard this story later after my father passed Robert said, Your father, he really sat with me in this tiny little apartment and he had me drill my dialogue and I got the roof because of him and just very sweet old school. Wow. Hollywood, stuff like that. But that said, when my father wasn't working as an actor, he was always in his, it was dad's den type, type type, type type. He was always working on screenplays and he loved writing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Do you feel the same? Do you acting more, writing more for you? Well, are you like your dad or

Christina Beck:

Not? No. Yeah. No, I'm not like my dad. I, there's bits of me that I like him, but it's more acting was definitely the first bug. And like I said, putting on shows at home. But then I got kind of lucky, I was in the valley still. So on Ventura Boulevard near Vineland there was this place called Moral Landis Dance Studio. And my mother used to go and take a jazz class there. This is the late seventies. And next door was a place called the American National Academy of Performing Arts. So I kind of wandered over there and at this academy place, and I ended up joining an acting class. And my very first acting class, an acting teacher, was a man named Francis Letter. And I didn't notice at the time, so I'm like nine years old, 10 years old, and he is about 80 or maybe seven in his seventies. And so I joined this acting class and then he asked me to be in the adult acting class, and I gotta play all the juicy, the bad seed and just fun stuff like that. Oh wow. And so it turns out that later on I found out that he was a big deal and he was in Pandora's Box, the silent film starring opposite Louise Brooks. And he's, and he did a ton of stuff for a long time. And then he was part of the actor studio in New York, and he was from Eastern Europe, but came over here right before the war, I think, . So that's when I really just was in heaven as a kid acting in this class. And then I also did some commercials with my brother. We were in some commercials. And then I became a teenager, , and then I became really rebellious and mm-hmm got into the punk rock scene and completely fell in love with music and artistry. I mean, really at that time too, this was the early eighties when punk rock wasn't necessarily vi What's so funny,

Michael Jamin:

Cause I can't picture you doing being into punk rock. I guess it,

Christina Beck:

I got pictures. I got pictures, and I've actually written the whole show about it. Yeah, I . But all that to say, yeah, I, I never wasn't like the punk rock chick. I more, I liked the artistry of it. I liked the right, And when I say that, I mean there were a lot of wonderful, cool artist people that I'd met mostly, much older than me at the time, but they were musicians and writers and actors. But they were on this kind of rebellious thing where we don't need permission to do anything, we just get to be creative. And that's what I loved mostly about that whole scene. And then there were different facets of it that were cuckoo and, and intense and lots of drugs and lots of alcohol and lots of inappropriate stuff. But then I got cast in a movie, so now it's my late teens.

And my best friend, she was well there is a woman named Penelope's Theorists who has made films that we know of Wayne's World and different Hollywood films. But at that time she had made a documentary called The Decline of the Western Civilization, which is a really amazing film even to this day because she really got into that la punk rock scene at that particular time in space. And it was an incredible film. And she wanted to make a narrative film. So she wrote a script and got it produced by a furniture salesman guy. And I think Roger Corman of course. And so I got cast in that. And like I said, I was in my late teens and at that time I was kind of over punk rock and I was like, Eh, don't wanna, this is stupid. But I ended up doing it. And that is where I really was like, okay, this is the way I wanna spend the rest of my life.

I loved being on set. And to answer your question, it's really tricky. I love in the realm of all that we do in terms of writing has its moments and then the pre-production, but being on set to me is definitely my favorite. And post is a whole nother exploration. But yeah, so it was from that moment on that I was just like, Okay, this is what I wanna do. And I did a couple more films with Penelope and then I moved to New York City and I wanted to be a real, I also felt like, okay, I didn't really, I need to be a real actor. I really have. And so

Michael Jamin:

A theatrical actor, is that why you moved to

Christina Beck:

New York? Well, yeah, I mean I love theater and my very best friend, you might know her, Cynthia, Man. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's Shannon. Familiar . Yeah. So we were

Michael Jamin:

Frozen. That's how I met my wife. That's how I met her. I met you through her. I met you honestly, Christina. That was the first time it was really, I met you really on real early on, but go on. When I was with Cynthia. Really? Yeah. Tour or something.

Christina Beck:

I know, it's so great.

Michael Jamin:

But go on. And

Christina Beck:

So Cynthia was in New York and at that time, for me, I felt like I really wanted to study and be a serious actor because I come from more of a film background. I did study a bit with Francis, but I really wanted to pay my dues as an actor. And I, I studied with a bunch of different great people. I auditioned for everything that was there at the time. And

Michael Jamin:

Tell me, I'm gonna interrupt for a second, hold on. But tell me what your thoughts are, the difference between acting for film or television and acting for the stage.

Christina Beck:

Well, in my experience and what I'm also kind of revisiting lately, well when you're acting in film, it's very subtle. There's a camera and the camera picks up everything. And so when you're on stage, you are playing to the back row. People in the back need to see and understand what's going on. And it's just a very different, and I think most actors can do both. Some are, I guess more comfortable doing one or the other.

Michael Jamin:

But when you study and you train, do you sometimes study specifically or did you specifically for film versus

Christina Beck:

No, no, I didn't. No.

Michael Jamin:

Are are classes like that? Yeah. Just for

Christina Beck:

Fun. Yeah. Yeah. There's like on camera classes where people, it's for auditions I think, but also to get to practice how you come off on camera. Yeah. I never did that . I never, yeah. Really did that. But here's a weird, maybe creepy thing. Ever since I was a kid though, I always felt like there was a camera on me. , I would visualize, I could almost disassociate a little bit, this is a psychological thing here, but I felt, I would kind of imagine walking to school, what would it be if this character was walking to school? I almost was above myself a little bit watching myself. And that's a weird thing to say cuz actually when you're acting in a film, you really shouldn't be watching yourself. But that's where I am also a director. So

Michael Jamin:

In other words, you were visualizing visualize how you would shoot yourself or is it more of Yeah. Was it more of a fantasy thing or how would I appear on, I wanna shoot myself if I was walking down the street?

Christina Beck:

Yeah, it's more the that one. And of course a little bit of fantasy, but it was escapism. But it was also, I was sort of able to take myself little Christina walking to school fifth grade out of it and see it from this other angle. And I don't know what that's about, but I do now I I see things that way all the time.

Michael Jamin:

Really How you would shoot it, where you would place the camera

Christina Beck:

Or where is the camera? Yeah. And it's such a funny thing cuz we live in a world now where everyone has a phone and everyone is documenting, everyone is shooting themselves. And that's a little different. But I guess it's similar in a way.

Michael Jamin:

Did you have film equipment when you were that Young? 

Christina Beck:

I mean, Well my dad I none. We really didn't. My dad, no, my dad did my made some super great films and actually. Yeah, we did a lot of home movies when I was little. So I was used

Michael Jamin:

To with sound.

Christina Beck:

No, no sound. No, it's

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Christina Beck:

So yeah, yeah, being tied up on a tree and then my brother coming up on a horse and all sorts of me crying. Yeah, I got it. I got it all.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Then so after New York, so how long were you in New York?

Christina Beck:

Three years. I was there for three years. And

Michael Jamin:

Then what made you decide to come back?

Christina Beck:

Well, I wrote a play and that's kind of what happened. So I'm in New York, I'm studying, I'm auditioning for Everything film. I remember that there was one year where I really went out for everything that was shot in New York or anywhere around there and didn't get anything. And at the time I was studying with a woman at Playwrights Horizons who was a writer and an actress. And she said, Listen, you guys really should start writing characters that you feel you could play or just more of an empowerment in terms of instead of waiting around for everyone to give you a role, write something. So a bunch of us did, and it really started out by writing monologues. So I was in a group of women and we formed a little theater company and so we wrote characters and monologues for these characters and then we put it up and that was really great. And then I got

Michael Jamin:

You. Don't skip that step. How did you put it up? How do people stage plays

Christina Beck:

You a lot of time? Well, at that time, at that time, which was a long time ago we raised a little bit of money, kind of similar to a lot of independent film stuff. But we raised a little money, family and friends type of thing. We actually did it at the Samuel Beckett Theater, which was where Playwright Horizon, I think they're still there on 42nd Street, I think eighth and ninth, 42nd Street, . And we put it up for a weekend and we got reviewed and we got in. It was great. It was super fun. And it also felt like I started to feel more complete as stuff that I could do as an actress. I always, I didn't, waiting around, I don't waiting for, I just felt like I have more to do and I was always journaling and stuff as a kid and as I got in my teens.

And so writing to me didn't feel that far off from what I was already doing. And coming into it as an actor, I knew I've read enough plays and I've read enough monologues to understand how to write in that form. So I ended up when I was living in New York, I'd come back to LA and visit in the summers. Cause summers are horrific in Manhattan. So there were some musicians that I met that were doing some kind of cool stuff. And this one guy played, he had a character that he did. And so I wrote a play. I kind of inspired me to write this play about him. He was playing a lounge singer and he, his friend had this group and it was kind of rock and roll stuff, but then they would go into a lounge sort of thing. And I thought, oh, that would be funny to, what would it be if these lounge singers had a kid and tried to live their life? And it was a little autobiographical, the father's alcoholic and the mother's sort of obsessed with her beauty. And so these themes started to come up in my work. So I wrote this full length play and there was music in it too. And then we also shot some video footage, so it was sort of like a multimedia thing. So I kind of had to come back to LA to do that.

Michael Jamin:

So you staged it?

Christina Beck:

Yes. I didn't direct it, so I wrote it and I starred in it. But a friend of mine this woman named Modi, who I met from the punk rock days, but also she was Penelope's assistant on some of the film stuff I worked on with her and was a video director in her own. And so she came in and she directed it and it was great. It was amazing. It was.

Michael Jamin:

And how do you even get the theater to put it up?

Christina Beck:

We raced a little bit of money and then we got producers and they put it up up.

Michael Jamin:

What do you mean? How does that work? You got producers, what does

Christina Beck:

That mean? Yeah, so the woman who played my mother in this is an amazing singer, artist, actor. Her name is Jane Cotillion. And so she loved the play and she said, Oh, I know this guy Billy DeModa and he's a casting director and maybe he could produce it. And he did

Michael Jamin:

. This is just from being out here, just from honestly, just meeting people, being in circles, taking acting classes and because that's the thing about la everyone's trying to do something right?

Christina Beck:

Absolutely, yeah. I mean think it's now because of Zoom and different things in the world and there's so much more accessibility. I think it's possible to collaborate and not be here. But all that said, especially at that time, you had to be here. And I do think it's still important to be in the place where you wanna be if you can. And these people I knew, so I knew about the guy, his name is Manny Chevrolet and he and his friend had this act and they were opening up for the Red Hot Chili Peppers and I knew them from suburbia, which was the movie I did with Penelope I knew. And so it was kinda a group of people that I already knew. And then the musical directors, this guy named Tree, who's good friends with, and they were just all these people that kind of organically came on board.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. And tell me, but how do, you're also, obviously you've written and directed and produced a bunch of movies, indie movies, some are shorts, some are full length, but do you go about, alright, so you work on the script. How long do you work on the script and when do you know it's done?

Christina Beck:

Yeah, that's a great question. And then everything's a little bit different. So with short films, well I'm teaching a course right now, so I feel like I already have this in my mind. Short film is one idea and that script can take a long time to write. It's not easy to write a short film because basically you're trying to squeeze in this one idea in a way that has a beginning, middle, and end. So you don't have the luxury of necessarily three acts, but you have to have this.

Michael Jamin:

How long is it short for you? Well,

Christina Beck:

Okay, so that's another great question because what I have learned now, I think a sweet spot for a short is anywhere from 10 to 12 minutes. I think if you can sit, do it in a shorter amount of time, even better because depending on what you wanna do with it. So there's a whole film festival world, which is pretty much the best place for your shorts to be seen if you can get them produced. So it's a matter of programming these films. So if you have a film that's 20, 25 minutes, that obviously takes up more time. And most film festivals, they program the short films in a block. So they're literally trying to pack in as many as they can and good ones. And it's all different too because the academy nominated films, they can be up to 40 minutes. But even again,

Michael Jamin:

When you say program, when they're looking for blocks, what is their intention?

Christina Beck:

Well, they're

Michael Jamin:

Showcasing what I mean, you have to understand that right as well. How does the film festival, how do they make money so that they would want you?

Christina Beck:

Right. Well that's a whole other thing. So there's different kind of aspects to that. So there's short films that are star driven, meaning you can put a star name in it. Now that always brings money and cache to a festival but not you can make a great short film and not have a star in it, is really what I wanna say. Because a good short film is something that has a very original idea. Again, it's short enough where you want more basically. And it's not making a feature and then picking a scene from the feature and making a short out of it. Sometimes you can create characters or create a separate script. So I made a short film for Fox Searchlight, I got in this new director's program with a feature script and they would not let us just take us a scene from the feature.

They were like, no, no, no, you have to make a short on its own, but with the same characters and the same relative premise. So that's kind of how I learned about that trap. But to answer your question the short films that get noticed at festivals or can even get into a festival are ones that are very authentic to whatever the genre is and the writer's vision. What are you talking about? Is it something, And that's also a weird trap too, because as a writer, I don't wanna be thinking about a festival, you know? I mean that's way down the line. But you have to live in both of those realities in a way. Because if this is a calling card as a writer or as a director of Indy films you have, it's good to keep in mind, okay, I'm not gonna write a 45 minute short film and expect it to be programmed. That would set myself up to fail if I could write. When

Michael Jamin:

You say programmed, you mean, what do you mean by programmed? Are they gonna play for that weekend?

Christina Beck:

Yeah, so in a film festival, they have a program of films they have, whether the festival is a week long or a weekend , depending on what festival it is. But for instance, let's just say Sundance, I believe a week. So there's some pretty intense statistics that I just found out from a friend of mine. So they had the largest amount of submissions of short films this past year than ever over 10,000 short films. And they only program 59 films. So wow. like, oh my God. And Sundance is wonderful and amazing and if you can get in, great, It's not the only festival. There's a gazillion festivals and anyone is a great experience to get in and go to have that festival experience. But to answer your question about programming , are we there? The people that program the festivals are people that watch the films and decide, we have a three short film programs, A, B, and C. This is just making this up, but it's kind of how they do it. We have 30 minutes in each block, so I gotta squeeze. It all depends. Sometimes there's a film that's a little longer, but they really like it, so they're gonna put that in there. And then there's less room for other films.

Michael Jamin:

. And how much does it cost to submit to a festival? Usually?

Christina Beck:

It varies. It definitely varies and it varies. Sometimes they have early submissions that are always a little cheaper. Also depending on you can always ask for a waiver. Sometimes they give them to you, sometimes they don't. So it can be anywhere from 20 bucks to 75 to 150 bucks. It definitely can add up.

Michael Jamin:

When you make a film, how many festivals will you submit to?

Christina Beck:

Again, that all depends. There's certain festivals that you can target for. Again, there's the big five seven festivals, Sundance and Berlin and Toronto Telluride and then those are kind of the biggies. But then there's everything that tears down from there. So yeah, it can get very expensive and super daunting. And that's a whole other conversation. The film festival world. Huge, big.

Michael Jamin:

Now let's say you get into a festival into a big prestigious one. What is the goal? Eventually I And what is the goal? You got, you're short, eight minute film is in Sundance. What are you hoping?

Christina Beck:

Right, right. Well you're hoping for Eyes on the Film and that's a really also interesting question that you asked because back when those festivals, especially Sundance is a very different festival today than it was when it first started as most things are. But those, that would be the eyes, all the, everyone would be there and you would get would just get the cache of this is a Sundance film. It would give you opportunities to meet agents and if you don't have representation it'll help with that. And it's still, those things can still happen, but now you can get eyes on your film, on the internet, you know, can generate that if that's what you really want, if that's your goal. So know we need those things, but we don't as much anymore. It's a very different business today. But initially you wanna get eyes on your film people to see your work, hire you for more stuff.

Michael Jamin:

And when you say on the internet, you mean YouTube or Vimeo or what's the platform? Both.

Christina Beck:

Yeah, I think YouTube is, I don't know if Jimmy I don't know how many people, I mean you can certainly send people there, but I think YouTube a little more, right,

Michael Jamin:

People find right. But what do you tell your kids in your class today? Are you telling to do more on social media? Are you like a TikTok or what else are you telling to get found?

Christina Beck:

Well don't more talking about the actual craft of the work, whether it's directing or screenwriting. I don't come up with all of that in terms of my work is as a writer director when I made my feature, I was very fortunate to I submitted the script to well I got into that Fox Searchlight program, which no longer exists. But there are other programs, there's lots of diversity programs, different studios have programs for emerging writers. And that one at the time I was one of two women, there were all men. There was like 40 men and two women. And nowadays it's definitely even doubt a lot. But all that to say that helped with, oh she was in that program, so let's take a look at her script. And then I submitted to an organization in New York called the If P, which now is called Gotham, but they do the spirit awards and Filmmaker magazine, which is something that I started reading very early on and I got nominated for best screenplay. So from that I got on their radar. So it's kind of just taking steps to be seen. It's always about people. Knowing what you're doing and what your vision is for this work,

Michael Jamin:

Do you go to a lot of film festivals even when you're not in them? Do you go just to watch or to meet people or anything?

Christina Beck:

I do in town. Yeah, in LA I will. I went to right Berlin when I didn't have anything in Berlin sadly. But I was there, I for a meeting with some European producers and then just happened to watch some amazing films. Film festivals are great cuz you meet like-minded people, whether it's people in the industry but also you meet other filmmakers, other writers, other directors, people that are maybe a little above you, maybe you've done a little more than them, but it's a really cool, cause the energy at most festivals I went to Can God, when was it 2006? I was trying to get my feature made and I was very naive. I made a short film version of my feature and I went to Can and I had my DVDs and I had my little pitch idea and I didn't really know that these meetings that they have, cuz there's a film market, some festivals have a film market and that's always really great. Berlin has one there's a film market here at afm. Kind of different energy though for sure, but can, it was like, oh my god, I was so lost. I was just like, what am I doing here? It was amazing and it was horrible and it was like that within each hour I just felt like I was in, was so over my head and yet really cool, wonderful things happened and I met people there that I'm still in touch with today.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jam. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist. People ask me this a lot, but do you find from where are that, it's that right meeting writers and actors and directors. Do you feel it's like collaborative or is it competitive?

Christina Beck:

Well, I think it's collaborative and you can kind of sniff out people that are competitive. I, I've been in quite a few groups of women especially, so back a couple, one when my first short film screened with the American Cinema Tech, not my very first short film, but the first short that I directed. And I met a woman there named Kim Adelman and she's amazing. She's written a book about short films. She's incredible and she supports a lot of female directors. And her and this guy named Andrew Crane created a program at the cinema tech. And so through that we made this thing called the Female Filmmaking Collective. And so we would bring other women directors and this was kind of, well this is like 15, 16 years ago. And then there's been other women's filmmaking groups. The film Fatals, a member of the a w Alliance of Women Directors.

So all that to say there's, for the most part, the energy is very much like, yay, how can I help you? And then there's a few people that are anywhere in the world. It is, it's their personalities, the spirit of, I try to stay in the spirit of that there's enough for all of us. Cause otherwise that makes me uptight and I don't wanna be uptight. But definitely, yeah, I think I don't write with other people. I haven't yet. I've tried to in different increments, but it just hasn't quite felt right. But I do collaborating for sure. And especially filmmaking when you're actually getting in production that's like all about collaboration,

Michael Jamin:

Especially with the good dp, you know, What are you shooting? What do you like to shoot on? Or do you care that much? What kind of camera?

Christina Beck:

Well, I like things to look like film . I mean, we shot my first short that I wrote Disco Man that was shot on 16. And my dp, I found him at USC Film School and he's a really good friend and we just shot something this last spring. So that was a long time ago. He became chair of the film school that I teach at now. But all that to say, yeah, again, it's the people that you meet here, you meet them there, we're all still here and still love film making. So that said, my DP for Perfection, my feature, his name's Robert Psal and he's amazing. Cause this guy, not only is he super talented, we shot that film for two years on the weekends, two and a half years. So to get someone to literally, okay, we got a little more money, Rob, come over, we gotta shoot this other would. And then a lot of times just he and I would jump on a bus and I'd borrow a camera from a friend. We had prime lenses, which if you put that on digital cameras, it gives a more cinematic look. So we had those for a while. We shot that film literally in four different formats, meaning four different cameras. And I Did

Michael Jamin:

You find it matched? Okay, Did it

Christina Beck:

Worked for the film? I don't know. Recently someone asked to see it, this wonderful DP that I was talking to, he lives in France and I felt a little self, cause I'm like, Oh my God, he's gonna see how, And he is like, Oh, it's shot so beautifully. And I'm like, wow, nobody knows

Michael Jamin:

All this.

Christina Beck:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Why you don't have to worry about that stuff. Well, and what about

Christina Beck:

It's gotta be in focus, let's put it that way, . Yeah. And sound is a big deal too,

Michael Jamin:

For sure. Absolutely. That's huge. It's hugely important if you can't hear it. Right. But what about how concerned are you when you shoot the stuff crossing the line or the cameras? Are you relying your DP for that, making sure that you know, don't have these jump cuts because the character's looking the wrong way? And

Christina Beck:

Is

Michael Jamin:

That your concern or you let the DP handle that?

Christina Beck:

Well, because so far I've been mostly acting in the stuff that I've shot. I definitely rely on my DP as well as my script supervisor. . I mean, I can tell myself when we're setting up a shot and then sometimes you can cross that line and it's okay, it's not gonna be an editing nightmare, but you sort of have to gauge it. And I don't make those kind of decisions by myself. And I really do rely so much on my DP and my script D because it's, it's that funny thing for me. What the reason I became a director in film was because I made a short that another different short besides Disco Man that it's called Blow Me. And I didn't direct it. And I did a lot of directorial stuff on that project. And my director at the time was busy with other things.

And so we weren't really able to finish the film for a long time. And actually my co-star was an editor as well. So he kind of got the film and he edited and we worked on it together. And what I learned, and this goes back to the film festival thing. So in film director has the say in everything in terms of how final say on music and different stuff. And being a screenwriter and an actor and even a producer, I didn't have the same access to the vision that I had. So I thought, ooh, I need to direct this stuff . So

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Christina Beck:

That's how that shifted. How

Michael Jamin:

Do you go about, but how do you go about fundraising for all this stuff and what kind of budget do you usually try to get?

Christina Beck:

Well, it's tricky. That's the hardest part. And I just was at a film festival here in la, it's the American French Film Festival. They have it every year at the dga. And I was listening to a panel of producers and directors and from Europe and the UK and Los Angeles. And the thing is, those foreign countries, they have film funding built into their system, literally the government. And there are different types of ways that those more character driven films. This is what I'm pretty much more interested in what we would call art house films. , especially right now, there's just this huge divide, which is very mm-hmm , much like the whole world that we're in right now. So there's tiny budgets and huge budgets and the middle size budget isn't really around anymore. No support for it. And it's happening in Europe too right now. So I was listening to see, okay, are they going through it too? So that said, yeah, there's different ways. And I would say for first time directors that are making a feature or a short film for the first time, Crowdfunding's great, there's amazing platforms. I did that with a company called Seed and Spark and they were really supportive and helpful. And we have

Michael Jamin:

Some, Well what do they do? What do they do that's better than putting it up on what's some crowdfunding site?

Christina Beck:

Well they are a crowdfunding site, but

Michael Jamin:

Why not just use your own, I don't know what's the difference between, well go fund me or whatever.

Christina Beck:

Well I don't, yeah, get, well go Fund Me I thought was more for donations. Yeah, so there's fiscal sponsorship, which is something you'd need so that people that are donating to your project get an actual tax write off that's properly done. So you wanna do that but they help curate and they have a platform. I mean, look, you've written the thing, you're doing all this work. Are you gonna set up a website so people can give you money? So, and maybe you're really good at that. Places. Well indeed, Gogo and Kickstarter, and I mentioned Student Spark because they're someone that I did it with, but all those places haven't already. It's like, why reinvent the wheel? They've done all that work. So literally you can just send people there. They take a small percentage of whatever you get and different platforms have different things. I don't know. I know there's one that if you don't make your gold then you don't get any of the money. So I didn't do that one , but

But going back to someone who's starting out and wants to make something a short or a feature and hasn't already exhausted their family and friends, there's nothing wrong with doing that. Also there's grants and And those aren't easy to come by, but they're there. And depending on, there's different places. There's like in San Francisco, there's the San Francisco Film Society has very specific grants for people that shoot in the Bay Area. And a lot of films have gotten made through that grant. They give a significant amount of money. So there are ways, and it's not easy. I mean really, ideally a private investor is great and there's gonna be a loss. So now most of the indie films, and these aren't Es, and I'm not an expert, I'm just speaking from my own experience. But an indie film may not get a theatrical release. I did not with my feature. What I did get is I got the theatrical experience in film festivals and I was lucky to be programmed in Los Angeles through the American Cinema Tech. And I got to see my film at the Egyptian Theater, which was heaven. And I was there for that. You were there. So, and now it's available to stream. So most projects go to streaming and huge projects go to streaming now. So it's just in this very different

Michael Jamin:

World. Is it, where is your playing, where is the streaming now?

Christina Beck:

On Tubby? Tubby . And

Michael Jamin:

This is per perfectionist. Which one is

Christina Beck:

Yes. Perfection.

Michael Jamin:

Which, yeah,

Christina Beck:

Yeah. Okay. And all that's on my website. Christina Beck do com.

Michael Jamin:

Christina beck.com. Interesting. Wow, that's interest. But

Christina Beck:

This is, and my shorts are on there too.

Michael Jamin:

All your short. Is there a down, getting to a big festival, that's gotta be a game changer. But can a little festival help you?

Christina Beck:

Well, yes, because again, you see your film on a big screen, you see your film with an audience, you meet other filmmakers and yeah, as you know, Mr. Jamin, everything in this business is preparation and luck. So you're honing your craft , you're doing what you love. There's no slam dunk guarantee. Even with the bigger festivals. I know people that have gotten into huge festivals and got big representation and then a year later nothing. So it's like nothing. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I always say to my students, pick stories that you love. Pick stories that you feel like you have to tell because you're gonna be living with that story and pitching that story way beyond the script. You're gonna be pitching it for grants, you're gonna be pitching it for festivals, you're gonna be pitching it for people to watch it online. You're forever pitching these stories.

But to say something visually is powerful. I think it can change minds and hearts. So I come to it with that. And it is frustrating. I have a feature that I wrote last year that I have not made yet. We shot a few scenes in the spring with some of my students and my first dp, me, Kyle to kind of see where it lands and figure out do we wanna do a crowdfunding thing? Do we wanna try to get in Grant? Like what? And I don't know honestly, I don't know if I have the bandwidth to go through that hustle for getting financing right now. Right now. Because

Michael Jamin:

If not that, Oh well I was gonna say, if not that, then what? You know.

Christina Beck:

Well, right. Well, I mean look, ideally if we were all Henry Ja or somebody who has a trust fund, independent filmmaking is for people that have a trust fund basically.

Michael Jamin:

Or can fund, right? Or you,

Christina Beck:

Yeah, I'm teasing, right? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

, how many, when you shoot, how many people on set, How many crew members do you wanna have? What's your skeleton crew?

Christina Beck:

My skeleton is probably 12 people

Michael Jamin:

That I'm surprised it's that big. So who,

Christina Beck:

Well

Michael Jamin:

Let's walk. You mean you've gotta skip supervisor DP

Christina Beck:

Happens fist. Yeah. Okay. Scripty, dp, ac sound mixer, boom. Makeup, hair. That could be one person blah. Who am I forgetting? Producer. Of course

Michael Jamin:

You're gonna want someone with the lights.

Christina Beck:

Well, right. Lights, gaffer, grip. Then we have,

Michael Jamin:

How many cameras are you rolling at once?

Christina Beck:

Oh, one . Yeah, one. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This isn't like tv, but I did actually, I made a short film with three cameras. Once I did that one I did for search site. Yeah, that's true. But that was a, people were like, Why did you do that?

Michael Jamin:

But that's still not even year 12. That might be, I don't know. I lost count.

Christina Beck:

Well, I'm missing people. I'm on the spot here. I'm trying to think. I'm totally missing people. I mean, there's craft service,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Christina Beck:

Oh my God. Probably like the most You got people person, Yeah. Anyways, yeah. 10 to 12. It just adds a pa. You need a pa you need, yeah. Yes. But yes, you can do it with five people. I've done it with three. I mean,

Michael Jamin:

Are you pulling any permits or are you sort of shooting

Christina Beck:

That? I do permits when I am renting equipment. And I have, I've also completely gorilla so many things.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, if you have, why do you have to have a permit if you rent co equipment they require

Christina Beck:

Because yeah, you have to have insurance and there's film LA and yeah, there's a whole thing that needs

Michael Jamin:

To happen. Yeah. People get paid off. Yeah.

Christina Beck:

. Well, it's kinda a, Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

It's hard and happens. Yeah, it's hard. It's a hustle. But you do it cuz you love doing it, right?

Christina Beck:

Yes. Yes. That is true. Right? That is true.

Michael Jamin:

And how many scripts do you have that are just sitting around that? Are you, I guess I won't even try with that one or,

Christina Beck:

Yeah, I know that breaks my heart cuz I was at a ratio of, at one point having everything produced. I was like, I don't remember everything's been produced. But now I've written more scripts. I like, Yeah, I have probably, but not a ton. I have a couple features and I've written a few series, so yeah, Not yet. Not yet. But

Michael Jamin:

What about just something you could do and now we'll wrap it up cause I don't wanna keep for chill up. But what about doing something where you could just shoot it in your apartment? Write it specifically for your apartment?

Christina Beck:

Yeah, well I would still need to get permission from my landlord. I'd still need to get equipment. Cause you can't shoot without permission if you wanna have insurance and you have to have insurance. Now look, my , my feature perfection in my old apartment, I actually did have permission from my landlord, but we shot so much of it just really running gun. And that can be done. That can have, But you still, And also I wanna pay people. I'm at a place where I can't ask people to work for free. Now if it's your first project and stuff, I encourage everybody to ask people to work for free if you treat them well. And if they're newbies too and it's a shared experience of discovery and stuff and they feel connected to the work and you feed 'em well, you gotta feed well. You gotta give

Michael Jamin:

'em some very, But it seems like you have the perfect person for that because you have a bunch of students who wanna just get their names on stuff.

Christina Beck:

That's true. That's true. Yeah. Well, and I would probably and probably will end up shooting this feature with, And look, my students are amazing. They are so talented and professional when I get on their set. So this year I've had two students cast me in their short films. So I got to show up really as an actor on these. That's fun. Well, it's great because I was talking to the other film professors, because we work with them on the scripts and we sign off the scripts and then they go off and shoot. So these, they're kind, they're on their own, they're chaperoned and then they come back and bring, and we work on the edit and stuff, but we don't know what really goes on in those sets. So I was saying to this other professor the other day, I'm like, Yeah, I was there. I gotta be there and see what, And the truth is these students are wildly professional and I wouldn't really honestly wanna work with anyone else. But then they are so good. So

Michael Jamin:

Someone called me up a student, I don't wanna say where they needed a 50 year old man. Now I don't play 50. We all know that. I play mid thirties of

Christina Beck:

Course.

Michael Jamin:

But I was like, right, I didn't really wanna do it. I was like, all right. And then he goes couple weeks later he's like he's like, Yeah, well we're gonna need you to read . I was

Christina Beck:

Like,

Michael Jamin:

I'm off only . Oh my God. I didn't want it that bad. But I think that was part of the experience that they wanted to have was they wanted actors. I'm not reading dude

Christina Beck:

Great. Well they're trying out their stuff I guess. Who knows? In terms of, Yeah, but wrong guy. They got the wrong guy with you.

Michael Jamin:

offer only.

Christina Beck:

That's right. That's right. Mr. Jam .

Michael Jamin:

How funny. Yeah. So, alright. This is so fascinating cuz this is a world I know nothing about this whole people cause people ask me all the time I got India. I don't know, Ask Christina. So where do people follow Christina back on? How do they learn more about what you're doing?

Christina Beck:

Well, like I said, my website and then my

Michael Jamin:

Give it to you again so that,

Christina Beck:

Okay. It's christina beck.com. There you go. And yeah, and then I'm on Instagram X Beck. And

Michael Jamin:

What do you mean wait, X dyna? How do you spell that?

Christina Beck:

X I don't remember that. T I n a.

Michael Jamin:

Oh it. So it's X.

Christina Beck:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I dunno why you said Ina. We'll work on this later.

Christina Beck:

Put a little thing up there. We don't have to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. And I just wanna say lastly, I am so not an expert on this. Please. I've been just finding my way as I go. But you know, I've watched other writers, The path is just, it's just not a straight line. And I think to stay connected to purpose and okay, I feel like I gotta tell certain stories. And when I talk to my students about this, okay, why do you have to tell this story? And we ask ourselves those questions and why now and all those things. Which in as far as indie film goes, I feel like we're in a little bit of a dip right now where the character driven independent films, at least in America, are not being celebrated as they once were. . And I believe that that'll shift.

And I talk, I've talked to many people about this and we've gone through so many different, you know, can look back in the 1970s where Paramount was like studios were making beautiful character driven films. And I don't know if we'll ever go back to that, but I do think like you said, you can have a tiny crew and you could make something. I could make something in my living room. Absolutely. And one of my favorite filmmakers is a woman named Barbara Loden. She sadly passed away a long time ago. She was an actress. She actually was married to Ilie Kaza and she made a film called Wanda. And it's an amazing film and you can find it online. It's on the Criterion Channel and different places like that. But she had a tiny crew. She had maybe six people. And , sometimes people besides the attacks right off, they wanna contribute. They wanna be a part of it. They wanna be a part of this passion storytelling.

Michael Jamin:

Sometimes they also wanna give you their notes. Right?

Christina Beck:

Well

Michael Jamin:

Sometimes that money goes and comes with strengths

Christina Beck:

Or here's the other thing. Yeah. Find an actor who really wants a great part that has some dough that wants to coce or something. And you guys can collaborate on that and you can write something that's really great for them that they would never get cast in. There's a lot

Michael Jamin:

Of you recommended. That's a great idea. That's a great idea. You recommended to me to watch Thunder Road. Remember that? Oh yeah,

Christina Beck:

I watch that. The short.

Michael Jamin:

And I loved it That and I loved, and I didn't realize I didn't, it was actually, I watched the scene from it, but it was actually, I guess a feature or whatever, but the scene stood on its own. I go, this is a beautiful it short. But it was a beautiful scene.

Christina Beck:

Oh, so you watched from the feature or did you watch the short film?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I think you gave me the link to Vimeo or something. Oh

Christina Beck:

Okay.

Michael Jamin:

I just watched that one church scene where he was

Christina Beck:

Like, Yeah, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So over,

Christina Beck:

Yes. That guy is amazing. He's the real deal. He's a guy to follow. Cause he's Joe Independent film. He, Jim is his name actually . And he makes stuff and he works as an actor. He'll do commercials, whatever. And then he'll take that money and that's what caves did. Caves made whatever he was working in television stuff he wasn't crazy about. And then he would take that money and then he would just make the films he wanted to make. So maybe it hasn't changed at all. It just goes back to that thing again where if you have this story you gotta tell and it does start with the

Michael Jamin:

Story. What kinda stories do you feel you have to tell?

Christina Beck:

Well I feel like I almost keep telling the same story, but I, I'm really

Michael Jamin:

Love different versions of

Christina Beck:

It. That's right. That's, as I get older, I get this different perspectives of it. But I do, I love the story of people, characters that have perceived limitations or real ones and they slowly find their way out of that predicament. And yeah, I like happy and things. I like to see the journey of someone of starting off in a place where they don't feel and they get a little better.

Michael Jamin:

And you said before I cut you off, you was, it all starts, the focus has to be on the script.

Christina Beck:

It's all about the script. That's the blueprint. That is the blueprint. Especially if you're shooting with no money and no time. And because you don't have the luxury and we never have the luxury. You see it all the time and any budget level. But the truth is, the script really is everything starts there. That's how you get anybody on board. That's how you can refer if a DP who's maybe a great DP and wants to do something small because he loves the story or he loves the subject matter and that script should be tight and ready to shoot

Michael Jamin:

. Right. And because you could shoot something and you get the biggest crew and the biggest budget and it looks like a movie. But if the script sucks, so what? No, it's not anyone's gonna wanna watch it, but it may look like a movie. Yeah,

Christina Beck:

Yeah, that's right. And then it won't get programmed really in festivals cuz there's so much competition. I just think that thing that we kind of all know, make it a personal story, doesn't have to be autobiographical, but make it something that you really connect to or a topic that really you do have some experience in that you can bring something that maybe we haven't seen yet or we haven't seen from that angle, like you said. Yeah. That's the stuff that's really gold. I love that Thunder Road short. It's such a great example of a guy who just took a very, very simple premise. And the other kind of novelty of that short is he shot it in one take, which is pretty cool. That's not easy to do.

Michael Jamin:

That's not easy. What I'm saying. He did it and that's a novelty. But as you pointed that out, I forgot. I like the story of it.

Christina Beck:

Well that's the thing, you should just be looking at it like, oh, where's the cut? No, we wanna be engaged. And that was very engaging and that was a very personal story. I mean, I don't know about his personal story, but I know that I felt that in his work. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's all about that. It's all about being vulnerable and about sharing something that's that only you can do, right?

Christina Beck:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean hopefully, I mean, I don't know, I think it's two, there's too many topics now that people are dealing with in terms that need to, voices that need to be heard in the world, I believe. And yeah, this is a powerful way to get our voices out,

Michael Jamin:

But that means writing. So that's what I think cuz everyone's looking for diverse voices and voices that have been underrepresented. So that means writing about, I think your experience, that's what we want from you

Christina Beck:

Because Well, I think so too.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Now's your shot.

Christina Beck:

Yeah, I think so too. No one can steal your idea. That's a whole thing too. Sometimes people are like, Oh no, someone's gonna steal this idea. Well there's real, there's not that many ideas really when you think about it, the same story over and over. I'm still telling the story of someone overcoming. I love characters that overcome their limitation or their perceived limitations or their background. I come from alcoholism and all sorts of other things. And that doesn't mean that I'm gonna keep getting it on the nose with those topics, but it informs the way I look at the world growing up in that environment. And today I'm really grateful for that. But when I started writing, I was still very tortured by that. So , but keeping it, that process of keeping it personal and having that point of view with those circumstances makes it only something that I can say

Michael Jamin:

I Christina, I think everyone should start taking your class one of either your classes, but the LMU one is a little difficult cause they have to enroll, but the other one Yeah.

Christina Beck:

Well, yes, is different. Yeah. I mean, I'm also, I do workshops too sometimes, so,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you do private workshops?

Christina Beck:

I do screenwriting workshops.

Michael Jamin:

And Is that on your website as well?

Christina Beck:

Yeah, not right now, , but it was, Oh,

Michael Jamin:

How would that basically work? Yeah.

Christina Beck:

Well, I've worked, so I've done six weeks workshops where we really start off with, Okay, what's the story you wanna tell that's most personal to you? And so it's literally creating a character or that story from the point of view of the storyteller and the steps to take, whether it would turn into a series or a short film, or a feature or a play.

Michael Jamin:

And it's six weeks and it meets once a week or something.

Christina Beck:

Correct.

Michael Jamin:

That sounds really good. How many people are in that course, or outta time?

Christina Beck:

Well, it's different times I, It's been usually pretty intimate. Not a ton of people , but now we can do stuff on Zoom, which is great. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Wow, that sounds pretty cool. Yeah, people should check you. Yeah, you better put that up once this, I

Christina Beck:

Guess. I guess I'm Do that. Yeah, I guess so. But

Michael Jamin:

Tell people where to find that again, so in case that you make that happen, that sounds like a beautiful thing.

Christina Beck:

Oh, thanks. Yes. Christinabeck.com.

Michael Jamin:

Christinabeck.com. Christina, thank you so much for joining me. This is a good talk. I thought this was

Christina Beck:

Really helpful. Thanks, Mr. Jamin

Michael Jamin:

Now I wanna be an independent filmmaker.

Christina Beck:

No, you don't

Michael Jamin:

. No, you don't.

Christina Beck:

If you wanna make money. No. There are some that make money. There are some that make money, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. But yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. It's so fun to talk with you, Mr.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna sign up, right? Everyone, Thank you for listening. And yeah, for make sure you get on my free weekly newsletter michaeljamin.com/watchlist. What else we gotta talk about? We have a course. Yeah, we can check out my course at michaeljamin.com/course. And if we post this in time, I don't know, but I'll be doing two shows in Boston, November 12th and 13th from a paper orchestra. It's my stage reading, and then two shows in December 10th and 11th. And for tickets, go to michaeljamin.com/live. All right. Thank you again, Christina. Wonderful.

Christina Beck:

My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for asking. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. One more thing. Come see me perform. I'm going to be in Boston area, actually, Amesbury, Massachusetts on November 12th and 13th at the Actor studio, performing my show, a paper orchestra. And then I'm gonna be back in Los Angeles on December 10th and 11th again at the Moving Arts Theater Company. So tickets are on sale. Go get 'em at michaeljamin.com/live. It's a small, intimate venue. I'm gonna be performing for my collection of personal essays, and each one's gonna be followed by like a 20 minute q and a. We get to talk about the work. It's a fun event. So I hope to see you there. Go get them tickets again are at michaeljamin.com/live, and of course, sign up to my weekly newsletter that's called the watchlist at michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review ,and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhillaHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

This week, Producer Jim Serpico joins the podcast. Jim's career has included shows like Lie To Me, Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll, and Maron, where he worked with Michael. Dive into his history and a deep conversation about writers from a producer's point of view.

Jim Serpico on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0785351/

Jim Serpico's Website - https://jimserpico.com/

Bread For The People Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jim-serpico-bread-for-the-people-business-food-life/id1617829952

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Jim Serpico:

We just, whenever we set up a project, we were on the set for the project and we, we started to do it so many times, we would learn what that meant. We would go on the location scouts we would do things that producers generally thought they were above doing.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.

Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. This is Michael Jam. And Phil is doing some more work today, but I got a special guest star and he's a, he's a producer. He's gonna ask a lot of, a lot of you wanna know how to become a producer. I don't even know what a producer is. We're gonna find out. But I'm very happy to have Jim Erko here. He was, listened to his credits cuz Hold on, pull over if you're in your car. All right. I'm just gonna mention some of your credits, Jim, and then I promise I'll give you a chance to talk or, or not. So executive producer of the job, a bunch of comedy central roasts can to Canterbury's Law, a bunch of Dennis Leery specials Rescue Me. He executive produced. And if you want, it's sirens as well.

Benders. You're also the show owner and and writer you know, which is the head writer of that. And executive producer. Executive producer of Maron, which is how I met him. And then sex, drugs and Rock and Roll, a bunch of other comedy specials. You have a, Jim's got a big specialty, you know, his niche is comedy. And I gotta say, and I think I told you this Jim, years ago. I know I did. So, Cause sometimes people say like, How do I become a producer? Or, because it producers this vague catchall term and it can mean, it can, a manager can be a producer, a writer could be a producer. But when I honestly, when I think of producer, I, I, producers who do the job, who get their hands dirty, it's, it's Jim Sego and his partner Tom tti. And I, I, I'm sure I told you this, Jim, we were, we had a, Well say hi so people know you're here,

Jim Serpico:

. Hey, hey, I'm here. Thanks for, Cause

Michael Jamin:

I'm doing a lot, I'm doing a lot of talking . But I wanna, I wanna kiss your buffer just a second cuz I, I think it's important people know this. Years ago, my partner and I wrote a spec script, and we wanted to get a, a producer attached. We sent it out. We, we had a meeting with a producer who had a production deal. And this person was an ex studio executive. And as part as their compensation, you know, part of their package was they got a deal to be a production deal. So we go meet with them, I wanna say who it was, and they're excited about the script. And they go, Oh, the script's great. You know, who will be the perfect star for this? And I, and they mentioned this actor, and we were like, Yes, that he would be perfect for the star.

And then this producer said to me, the words that crushed me, the producer said, Do you know how to reach them? And I was just like, But that's your job. Like, what do you think you are doing? And the thing is, Jim, if if it was you, this is what you would've said. You would've said, All right, I'm gonna go to this costume store. I'm gonna get a, I'm gonna rent a pizza delivery costume, , I'm gonna get a large pie and I'm gonna deliver it to them with the script inside. Cuz that's what a producer does.

Jim Serpico:

I I appreciate that.

Michael Jamin:

A producer's a hustler

Jim Serpico:

For, well, some are, some are not, not always required. But yeah, I have a lot of thoughts and I could say a lot about all this, but that's what I would do. I, I'd like to think that I am very resourceful in an honorable way. I have done things like I forget who was running HBO at the time, but I was, I was shopping a, a cookbook called the Mafia Cookbook with these recipes. And we wanted to do these short films tied around the recipes. And he was based in Los Angeles, It was Bob Cooper actually. And I had this $300 basket made with Italian pastas and homemade sauce and mozzarella copies of the cookbook and all this stuff. And I had it delivered to his home on the weekend. And I had never met him. And he called me on the weekend and he, he goes, I've never met you. I don't really know who you are, but I must say this was one of the most unbelievable presentations I've ever seen . Right. And then the next time I talk to him, he passed. But at least I, I got the look, I got the look.

Michael Jamin:

But that's, but I, even when we met on Maron, like you were always very hands-on. Some producers will say, Okay, and then they pass it off. They, they order someone else to do it. This is what we need to do. Now you do it, you pick up the phone and you do it. Like, you're always very hands on, like, I will get this done. You know what I'm saying?

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. I mean, for better or for worse, I had to figure out this job kind of on my own and find mentors along the way that would show me like what to do as a producer.

Michael Jamin:

And then what do they teach you?

Jim Serpico:

Well, so, so going back, you gotta understand, like I, I started representing comedians, which is a way into producing for a lot of people, I guess. But also that I didn't learn from anyone. And

Michael Jamin:

How did you get into that then?

Jim Serpico:

I was an assistant. Okay. This, this relates to what you were saying right from the very, very beginning. I graduated college, I got a job at a music booking agency. And I was an assistant, you know, what are what other jobs? But getting an assistant job is one of the best things you can do. If you wanna break into show business, you know, whether an assistant at a management company, an agency, a writer's assistant, whatever. I always, I believe in that. And I also believe in the philosophy while you're there, you don't have to worry that this isn't the exact thing I want to do. The person I'm assisting doesn't have the job I want to have, so then I'm gonna be miserable every day. No. Instead, you should still do the best job you can because that person as well as the others around are gonna really like you and root for you and help you in some way.

But I was an assistant at a music booking agency that had Wilson Picket, Bo Didley, the Village people, Ronnie Specter, you know, these old, these groups. But they were credible people. And I said, I want to, I want to be a booking agent. Like who, you know. And I was vocal about it, and it was a small enough company. I could have those conversations with the owners. And they gave me three states to appease me and shut me up. They said, All right, you wanna be a booking agent? We're giving you bolded Lee and Wilson picket. You, you have North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming. Good luck.

Michael Jamin:

Three worst . Yeah. Okay.

Jim Serpico:

And this was about 90, 90, 19 90, 91. And I literally would go and I went to the bookstore. I got this book on blues clubs and I would call information. And in 1990 when you dialed information, you would get a local operator. Mm-Hmm. . And I literally would have conversations and say, You, I represent Bold Didly. And they'd be like, What? And I'd be like, Yeah. Do you have any ideas on who I could call to try to book Bo Diddley? And I had no leads on where to book 'em. And I would call hotels and I would call bars. And I came up with a list of people and they were like, Are you telling me for real? You could get Bo Diddley here? And I'd be like, Yeah, I could get Bo Diddley here. And I remember we, we got a booking for, and my bosses were like, We gotta get the 50% deposit wired cuz I'd never heard of this place. Was it real? And we ended up booking a tour for Bo Didley in those three states. Wow. And and I had never met Beau at the time. And about six months later I met him and he goes, You're the motherfucker that booked me in North Dakota, South South Dakota in February. You know how fucking cold it is in February.

Michael Jamin:

. All

Jim Serpico:

Right. But he was joking and he was cool about it, but it was me being resourceful. Right. and then my next step was booking comedians. Not in those states, but in colleges. And I went to NA at convention and, Wait,

Michael Jamin:

What is that? That's the college convention, right?

Jim Serpico:

Was it? Yeah. I don't even remember. It's like the, I don't even remember what it, it's something College association. It's like all the people who run student activities at the colleges around the country. There's one big national convention where everyone, all the big players in college go and then they break off into these regional conventions. So I went, the first one I ever went to was the big one. And I was 22. I was barely older than the college kids. And I met these agents who had been in the business, they were five years older than me. And they were like, to me they were big shots cuz they worked at places like William Morris and apa mm-hmm. , but really within the company, they were like, it wasn't the the most prestigious thing to, to be known for as an agent. All right. You're gonna handle these college kids.

Right. But to me, they were big agents at big agencies and they, they were selling people like Adam Sandler whatever anyone who's anyone as a standup comedian would want college gigs cuz they would pay $5,000 to 50,000 a gig. So, Right. I, I became friends with some of the agents who were there. We would hang out, we would have a couple beers. I actually threw a party in my hotel room for the student buyers and I had the agents there and I filled up my bathtub with beer. Mm-Hmm. , I was networking with people and because they had fun, they would come down to my booth and book these comedians and magicians that I was selling for colleges. And those agents specifically at APA said, We are not going to these other 12 conventions. You are. Why don't you handle our comedians for us and be a middle agent and your company will get 10%, our company will get 10%.

So that's what I did. And one of of those clients was Adam Sandler. And I started booking Adam on college shows around the tri-state area. And then I would drive Adam to the gigs that I booked. And that's when I got hooked on comedy and, and realizing that comedy and representing and working with comedians was a business. You know, cuz I had this personal relationship with the guy who was going on stage that night and he seemed to appreciate the fact that I was getting him these gigs for over 20,000 a night. Right. And he would then put, Is

Michael Jamin:

This before Saturday Night Live?

Jim Serpico:

This was right at right during it. Okay. D during it. But I remember he had Chris Farley call me from the set of Saturday and Night Live trying to convince me to take him on as a client to book him at colleges. And then I went into full on comedy representation at a small management company based on that. Why

Michael Jamin:

Would you need to be convinced of that though? Like, what did you say, Yes or no?

Jim Serpico:

I did, but it never ended up working out. I think he was just like, you know who I am, I don't know if you know who I am. I do this guy De Bears and he starts doing the impression of of the thing he's doing. And at the time I was also at a photo shoot with someone who became a client and ultimately my partner Dennis Leery, that's when that call happened. Right. Yeah. And then Dennis and I bonded and I went on the road with Dennis as a tour manager for six months with him and his band. And we became close, he started to take off. He had an opportunity based on heat to start a production company.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

He saw something in me to ask me to do it and run it for him. I had no experience.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you had no experience in

Jim Serpico:

That. Yeah. I think he just trusted me and none of us really knew what it was or what it meant.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

He, he, he never had a tremendous trust in the typical Hollywood person. So I think, I think he felt better with kind of like a young person who we believed would be honorable not wrong and look after and

Michael Jamin:

Look out for his personism. Yeah.

Jim Serpico:

And, and well he was still surrounded by these other experts, you know, cuz cuz you know, at that point you know, he still, he had agents at the big agencies.

Michael Jamin:

But were you intimidated when you were in those early meetings with agents and other, and writers and producers and, you know, you're brand new?

Jim Serpico:

Yes and no. I think there's certain people that get off on trying to control the room and make people like me feeling intimidated. Mm-Hmm. . And it's weird because on one level I'm a very quiet, shy person. But in another, there's another part of me that's very confident. And like I could read the room and I could be tough when I have to be tough. And I don't know, I just kind of fit in. And the other thing that happened was, a pivotal moment in my career was Dennis did a movie and we got to see the movie before it came out. It was me, his agent, and somebody else.

Michael Jamin:

And at this point, you're working in, in the capacity of his, basically you're running his production company.

Jim Serpico:

Right. But also handling all his business. I was his defacto manager.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Jim Serpico:

But my role was, was officially, you know, partner in the production company.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

And, and I saw the movie and I said, This movie is not good. This is gonna be a problem. And the agent said he doesn't know what he's talking about and said a lot of good things. Right. And the movie came out and did not do well.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

And there was forever a bond in trust. And no, I didn't do it for that reason. I was just telling the truth of what I felt about the movie. And I wasn't trained, by the way, I have no training in writing or I didn't go to school for movie and film production or development. Right. I went to school for music.

Michael Jamin:

But did you, when you said it was no good, like what were you hoping to happen from that?

Jim Serpico:

Well, you got, you gotta immediately get into defensive mode and figure out what our stance is gonna be. How much press are we gonna do?

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Jim Serpico:

Okay. You know, what are we gonna say to people? Your name's all over this .

Michael Jamin:

Well, did he But he didn't write it. He just, he was just starring

Jim Serpico:

At it. He did write it No,

Michael Jamin:

. And you had the boss to tell him it was no good.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. I mean, wouldn't you want that if serious?

Michael Jamin:

Well, at the script stage, but I don't at that point, what are you gonna do other than I guess recut it. I mean, you can't reshoot it.

Jim Serpico:

Oh no, there was not, no, the movie was coming out, man. There was nothing. But you do have to, there's a whole nother part of this when you're representing talent is like, what is our position when they're asking us, they, the, the movie studios or whoever's putting up the money is going to ask the talent to promote the shit out of the project. Right. Right. Because that's all they have. It's very hard to get free press unless it's amazing. So they're gonna push and push and push. Yeah. You have to be smart and pick your shots. Like if you know it's a dog, you can't say yes to all that stuff.

Michael Jamin:

But you're distinguishing, he, you're basically asking him to distance himself from his own project.

Jim Serpico:

Correct.

Michael Jamin:

. But is there any way to do that? If you, if you, I mean like, have to time. I had nothing to do with this. I don't know

Jim Serpico:

What happened. No, you don't. You just don't do interviews certain months.

Michael Jamin:

You just Okay, okay. And you just, and then you just lick your wounds and, and then figure out your next plan.

Jim Serpico:

I, yeah. And, and long story short, our next plan was to go into the TV business

Michael Jamin:

. Right. Right. And then what, So what, what show came after that? What, what show came next?

Jim Serpico:

So the first All right. I mean, the truth is we took a deal to develop television early on without the intention of ever developing television.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Why? It was the money

Jim Serpico:

We had the rent paid, we had salaries paid. We, we would buy time to develop new movies.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So you were gonna put it towards movies, but not tv. That's

Jim Serpico:

All. But the deal was for television .

Michael Jamin:

But then, but why, So what was your plan then, if you weren't gonna do, like, what were, what did he wanna concentrate on? Movies and, and guest stars or something.

Jim Serpico:

See what happens. Buy in two years, we'll see what happens. Right. You know, and, and at that point the deal was with Dreamworks and Jeffrey Katzenberg was involved and he had, we flew to LA to meet Jeffrey and it was Dan McDermott, Justin Fery d or Frank at the time. Yeah. these all big executives. Yeah. Daryl and Justin still run Dreamworks television today. Yep. they were some of my first friends in the business and we, we had some conversations. Dennis had done a movie a police movie where he was, I don't know, like the third lead or something. And he got really close with one of the police techs and mm-hmm. always thought it would be a cool idea for a movie or TV show. We had that conversation with Katzenberg and the next thing you know, he somehow hooks us up with Peter Tolin. Yeah. And once Peter Toll's evolved was, we're like, well, wait a second. Maybe tv. Let's see what this is about. He's,

Michael Jamin:

He's a big shot writer. He's a great writer. Peter Tollen. Yeah. Now I, I know I'm skipping around a little bit, but I you, cuz you guys, I should mention you're New York based as you know, as well as that all you guys are New York based. Is that, now, do you find that know people, Hollywood is in Hollywood? What's that like for you?

Jim Serpico:

Oh, me, you have to Personally, I, I love it. I love leading a regular non Hollywood life mm-hmm. and popping in. And when I say pop in, I, I, I dedicated a lot of my life to knowing as many players in Hollywood or more than the people who live in Hollywood. Did so

Michael Jamin:

And how'd you do that? But,

Jim Serpico:

Well, let's go back one second. Yeah. You asked me who, who my mentors were. Yeah. Before we really did that TV show, we set up a couple independent movies. There was a guy named Bobby New Meyer, who we were partnering on a project that never ended up happening, but he became a really good friend of mine. He produced the first hit independent movie Sex Lives and Videotape. He, for some reason, every time he came to New York, which was every three months, he and I would go out for lunch or dinner for years. And he would teach me a lot of stuff. And if I ever had a question in the business, he would teach me

Michael Jamin:

Give gimme an example. What, what he might te teach

Jim Serpico:

You going forward. Line producers are amazing. Do you need to give away 50% of your business to have one as a partner? No.

Michael Jamin:

To have a, to have a line producer? Oh no.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. Right, right. Things like oh, you love this book, here's what you do. You know, here's, you go to this person at this agency or these several people to try to find a writer that's really meaningful. But I'm 25 years old, How could I sell a book? That doesn't matter. As long as you have something they want, you have a good writer. So the other thing that happened was around the time of the, the movie I was talking about not doing so well, we rejiggered the team around Dennis professionally and Dennis, I mean this, this, this, this is the luck part, but it's also the fact that I was resourceful enough and maybe naive enough and ballsy enough, I went to LA myself and hired a new agency team for Dennis without him being there. Anna Lou lawyer did.

Michael Jamin:

He was, was he aware of this, that you're doing this?

Jim Serpico:

He asked me to.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. Okay.

Jim Serpico:

Right. But I became the point guy now cuz they, they were like, Jim brought us in, We're working here for Dennis. It's Dennis and Jim. But I was a very important part of the team now. Right. I wasn't just some, like at the other place, I was just some assistant peon. Now I was the guy who them to be on the team and they already, they, they would get me any meeting, whether it was with Dennis for him to be in or not. And I remember within a year and a half of, of working at this production company with no experience, I sold at least one or two projects to Mike De Luca that were based on books. Right. because the agency and the specific agents at that agency really were trying to help me build my business.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Interesting.

Jim Serpico:

Interesting. And, and at that point I was like, I could sell anything. I wasn't. And I know it sounds cocky. I what I really mean is like, I have done it already, so why, why, why do, I'm sure I could keep doing this and I would sell projects,

Michael Jamin:

But isn't there an element cuz there's like the produ, there's so much to being a producer. Some of it is selling and some of it is actually making and doing and being on set and like, there's more than, you know.

Jim Serpico:

Well, that's the other thing. And, and I, because I didn't learn, So Bobby Newmeyer was a hands-on producer. He did not represent talent. And the beauty of of learning from a guy like that was, you know, he was teaching me how to produce from the ground up and get the film sold and made. Cuz that's what he did Without having, without just leveraging talent. So many producers come up through the agencies in the mail rooms and, and by the way, I'm not shitting on that way of coming up mm-hmm. or producing. I do think those people deserve producing credits. But we just, whenever we set up a project, we were on the set for the project mm-hmm. and we, we started to do it so many times we would learn what that meant. We would go on the location scouts we would do things that producers generally thought they were above doing.

A lot of producers. Yeah. Like Bobby Newmeyer would go on the location scouts cuz he was an independent filmmaker and producer. We would go on the location scouts and by going on the location scouts and paying attention and just being so involved, we became, we, first of all, we were able to learn every aspect of filmmaking. It was our film school. Like the DP would talk about why this room's great, why the light's gonna look amazing, or what we need to do to light it to make it look like the way, you know, we want, why this apartment is not configured correctly. Or while this room is amazing, there's nowhere to stage all the equipment we can't shoot here. It's like everything. Yep.

Michael Jamin:

It's, I remember and I remember you doing that when we were scouting Marin and I was like, I was just watching you cuz you were, you were, That's exactly what you were saying was like, eh, this is not, Yeah. Where do we put video village here? Where do we Right. It's too close to the street. We're gonna get noise. I mean, you know, we were, you were dinging places until we found the right place.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, and I, that's just what I learned by producing the way I figured out how to produce. And I didn't have a lot of, I didn't, a lot of these managers that, that produce work at management companies with, there's a lot of pressure to earn and they only earn based on the commissions their clients are bringing in. And they're so busy doing that that there's, there's not, it's not possible for them to leave the office mm-hmm. for six hours or four hours or a day. I mean, you know, like I would literally, I moved to Los Angeles for three months at a time for three years. I didn't do the fourth season in person, but you know, like I would be hands on, very hands on, but, and have enough time to try to continue to develop my other projects and and nurture my relationships. Mm-Hmm. . And that's another part of it. And I don't know if you want me to keep rambling.

Michael Jamin:

I know you're, I think is all, this is stuff I don't even know. So it's not just my audience, it's me. So please go

Jim Serpico:

On. So the other thing that I did when I put together that team for Dennis, and then we had the shows on the air that one of 'em was very successful. And the deal was the, the Project Rescue Me was financed by Sony Pictures television. Mm-Hmm. . We ended up having a deal with Sony to develop more television mm-hmm. . And I would, you know, after the first couple seasons of Rescue Me, I would, I really concentrated on building out the rest of the business and I opened an office in Los Angeles for us. And I would go to LA a week, a month mm-hmm. every month. And I would take meetings with agents managers, writers, and certain talent. And I, I made sure that over the course of 10 years, I had a personal relationship with anyone that could possibly buy from us. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

I, I also, you know, when we had shows on the air, I did a lot of work with the people at the studios and the networks in all different departments. So like my guest, I have this podcast now, my, it's called Bread for the People. And I, I, I'm a bread maker but I also obviously still produce television. And I, I have people from the entertainment field on the podcast, and I'm on the podcast next week is the guy who is a market analysis research guru who tests television shows. Mm-Hmm. . So like, I would, I would talk to these people and I would learn from them. You know, especially in particular that show when we talk about it on this coming episode, the testing of the original pilot informed a reshoot that we had to do to the end. Mm-Hmm.

of that, of that pilot. And, you know, that reshoot helped make it become successful. But I always enjoyed meeting people in the business who worked in all different fields and learning from them. And I really dedicated my life to it. And in some ways, I would say, and I still do this, like I work a lot, you know, I, I try to take some time for myself, but I work many hours a day to this day. Mm-Hmm. , you know, I, I'll work from seven in the morning to 11 at night. Oh yeah. I'll, I'll schedule social things and I'll put that in my day. But I always did that and I always was willing to travel Right. For the job and spend a lot of time away, away from my family. But I would do everything I can to be back on the weekends.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Interesting. So, yeah, you made your sacrifices. Tell, I wanna talk to you about Marin because that show came about. It was a real low budget show, and it came about in an interesting way. So tell us about the beginning of that. Bef even like before I even, I, me and Si got

Jim Serpico:

Involved. So I had, I had known this manager named Olivia Wingate. Mm-Hmm. a little bit. We didn't know each other too well. Actually, I was listening to Maron's podcast and I believe it was around episode 14, I'm guessing that he had Judd Aow on and around the same time he had Louis CCK on, This

Michael Jamin:

Is really right in the beginning then

Jim Serpico:

This was the beginning. Yeah. And I was blown away by the podcast and I was like, I wonder if, in my mind it was like a Larry Sanders type of show around Mark Marran doing this podcast. And that's all it was. Right. I, I wasn't even writing at the time and I spoke to Olivia and she was very warm and welcoming. You know, you have a lot of managers out there, especially today, it's harder than ever. They, these gatekeepers that do not want an outside guy, especially like me, who also manages talent mm-hmm.

Michael Jamin:

Because she think he might poach,

Jim Serpico:

She didn't, but most, they don't even give me the opportunity. Some do. Right. You and I just had an experience where mm-hmm. , I reached out to a manager of another piece of talent and he was also very warm and open. Right. Right. But a lot of the guys at the big places won't have that conversation. But she was cool. And then she set a meeting with, with herself and Mark and me in New York, and we worked on developing an idea for a good year with a writer director that had a couple of cool credits. But it never worked out

Michael Jamin:

In, in the sense that you weren't happy with the script. You mean,

Jim Serpico:

I don't even know if it went to script. It, it, it definitely went to some kind of outline. Mm-Hmm. , there was definitely something, but I don't know that there was a script. And then, Oh. From the management company I had, I had a manager representing writers that had a client named Duncan Birmingham

Michael Jamin:

Mm-Hmm. .

Jim Serpico:

And we decided to give him a shot at meeting with Mark in writing the original pilot

Michael Jamin:

Script. And Duncan was basically a no one. He didn't even have any credits at that point. Right.

Jim Serpico:

Duncan was a no one. Yeah. And this script came out, I thought, pretty great. Yeah. And, and I had a deal with Fox Television Studios at the time and went to Fox and said, Listen, this guy Mark Marron is blowing up. Mm-Hmm. , we have this really good script with a concept where we could bring in guest actors every week. I think we could produce this at a low budget every week. Here's what I want you to do. Mm-Hmm. instead of paying script money, cuz pilot script money Right. Is a minimum of 75 grand.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Jim Serpico:

I said, give me $30,000 to go out and shoot something. That's it. That's, that's what you're investing. And for these companies, that's nothing.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist. And did Duncan get, So Duncan didn't get any, any script money or he got the difference , you know what's saying?

Jim Serpico:

I, I honestly don't think Duncan got money at the time, but Duncan had a chance to get a move, a short film made, like we kind of called it a short film. It

Michael Jamin:

Feels like a presentation. It was kind of like, I seem to remember it was like maybe 15 minutes or something you shot of the,

Jim Serpico:

Was original it was at least 15 minutes. Which, which by the way, a full episode would be 21 minutes. Right. So

Michael Jamin:

It was not shorter.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. It wasn't that much shorter. Yeah. And I had these guys from New York that did me a favor. They came out, I mean, we, we did this whole thing that looked like a television show mm-hmm. For 30 grand.

Michael Jamin:

And That's amazing. And so who was, who was getting paid? I mean, there's production costs. Like I don't, I don't know how you do it for 30,000. You rent a place or did you get the place for free? Like who? Everyone, You must have just paid people in pizza because there's certain fixed costs that you have to pay the camera and stuff like that.

Jim Serpico:

I don't think we had to pay the camera. I think I got No, the guys flew out with their cameras. I got these guys in New York who wear commercial

Michael Jamin:

Oh.

Jim Serpico:

You know, filmmakers that wanted to get into scripted had a line producer that wanted to get scripted and a lot of people did favors and, and you know, it's back to the resourceful thing. Right, Right. It's going out and, and and thinking outside the box

Michael Jamin:

For

Jim Serpico:

Sure. My favorite, my favorite quote of there was a writer Don Oldtimer, what the hell is his name? It'll come to me. But he, Oh, you, you definitely know this guy. Okay. Well known comedy writer. Right. But he, he said, his quote was, when they zig we zag. Right. He never wanted to do it the way everyone else was doing it. And that's kind of my thing. It's like, I'm gonna make stuff happen. Like I'm gonna make it happen and we are gonna go out and figure out how to shoot it. Do I know how? No, but we're gonna figure it out. I know that. And we

Michael Jamin:

Did. Yeah. That is unusual. Cause usually just some people were listening, you would write, someone would get paid to write the script, they'd read the script and then they'd, they'd pass on it. That's how it usually goes. . But Right. So you shot it thinking that it would help get it picked up. I I, Which is unusual too, because it doesn't necessarily help, but It did.

Jim Serpico:

It doesn't necessarily help usually because it's awful. You know, It, it, everyone thinks they're gonna go out. Shoot a good one. Including me, . But you know, we took out the tape, we did screenings, we went around to the networks, we had meetings and off that tape we got an order to series and then we started meeting showrunners. Right. That's where I met you guys.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

And we, and we reshot the pilot and rewrote the

Michael Jamin:

Pilot. Right. Did we rewrote the pilot? I

Jim Serpico:

Don't, I think so. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So did we, So yeah. So you met with a bunch of, Cause I remember, I think we met with you years earlier. I'm pretty sure we did before Maron. And then you met with showrunners and I remember meeting Marks and I met Mark at, at a at a diner. And, and I think he, I don't even think Olivia was there and a diner on Sunset Boulevard for breakfast. And Mark ordered steak and eggs. I was like, Who has steak and eggs? .

Jim Serpico:

That should have been the sign.

Michael Jamin:

That. And then yeah. And then we got, and then we got that. And that was a great gig for us. I mean, that really was a, a good, really good four years. But yeah. Super low budget. But it was great experience.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. I loved it. Yeah. I loved it. It was my first thing that I ever shot in Los Angeles. It was, it was hard to, to leave New York for so long, but it was just something like thrilling about it. Yeah. and we were really breaking new ground. I think. Like we, we really shot it for a quarter of the budget of most shows. Mm-Hmm. through Mark and his podcasting, we were able to get the guests that actually did the podcast. And that was pretty cool.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He called in, he called in favors. But it was yeah, it was an interesting job. It was wonderful.

Jim Serpico:

The other, the other thing we did was on that presentation was we took a shot with a director that was not a television director. He was a, a filmmaker who won the Academy Award for best short film. And it was Luke Mathen

Michael Jamin:

That, So Luke Oh, right. So he did, he directed the pilot. Right,

Jim Serpico:

Right. And that's how Luke got so involved. You know, we, we were loyal to everyone who was involved in the beginning. Cuz that was the promise. Right. We're gonna do this, we're gonna get it picked up. Mm-Hmm. and when it does, this is your way into television.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And it

Jim Serpico:

Was, he

Michael Jamin:

He directed a bunch of episodes. He's really good. Yeah.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. I think he's doing really well right now is and he's a really talented director. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And, and then, and you actually wound up directing some episodes too on Marin.

Jim Serpico:

I did. I did. I'm very grateful to you guys and to Mark for the opportunity to do that. You know, that's, I was doing it. I was in, I started this business in my early twenties and you're standing around the sets and it, you start to learn the things Right. You know, and you wanna continue to evolve. Right. So it was different and scary, but it was cool. And then I went on to direct sex, drugs and rock and roll and some of the ben there stuff.

Michael Jamin:

I remember when you were directing you, you bought a binder . Right. Especially it zipped. And you go, you gotta get a binder. So I went out and bought a binder from when we were, I got the same exact one. .

Jim Serpico:

I mean, I had a very specific way Yeah. To direct. And I know I came up with people who did that. Right. So I learned from them mm-hmm. and it was very helpful. Mm-Hmm. . And it's a skill set that I still have and bring to the things I do now. I'm not currently in the pool to direct episodic television. I think the next shot I'll have is probably something I create.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well, and let's get talk about that cuz you and your partner Tom created Benders. How, you know, and that was your first time that your first real writing did you had writing? Much writing.

Jim Serpico:

We had some episodic credits.

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh

Jim Serpico:

shortly before that. And yeah, we, we, I I, it came up through a phone call with one of the executives at ifc. I don't know if we wrote it on spec first or if we found an area that they liked and then they ordered the script. I think that's what happened. Right. I think we found an an area that they liked.

Michael Jamin:

And that, And so that was you guys running and you had a, you had a small writing room, right? Or No,

Jim Serpico:

We actually did that one also on Orthodox. And we freelanced two two or three writers, Uhhuh . So we would write outlines and ideas and and we would write some of the episodes and they would write some of the episodes that we assigned to them.

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's interesting. Why did you wanna do it that way?

Jim Serpico:

It's the same thing as the show that we did Maron. Like we just didn't have the money. Uhhuh writing staffs cost a lot of money mm-hmm.

Michael Jamin:

.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. And you're not necessarily required to have a writing staff , you are required to farm out episodes, at least to a season. Right. so we just did it the bare minimum.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

And you have more experience on that than me. I've never worked on a writing staff. I don't know how I, I know that in sitcom world it's very effective and it's almost necessary. Right. I never found in the dramas I did that it was helpful and I felt it was inconsistent. And that ultimately the, the big show runners that I worked with had to end up rewriting everything

Michael Jamin:

That, that happens if you don't have the right staff. For sure. Yeah. Interesting. And then, and do you I mean, so what did you think of it? Did you like, I mean, did you like the whole writing that whole process for you?

Jim Serpico:

Oh yeah. I loved it.

Michael Jamin:

If you were gonna do one, if you had a truth between writing, producing, directing, that's it. Which, which would you wanna put your energy into?

Jim Serpico:

It would not be directing. I could weed that out by process of elimination.

Michael Jamin:

Why is that?

Michael Jamin:

It's stressful. People don't realize how stressful it is, but

Jim Serpico:

It's stressful. And to what end in television, it's like you're really executing the creator's vision. Right. And in television, the creator is the person you know, whose vision it is. Right. So I I would say it would be the writing, to be honest. I, but I also love the producing mm-hmm. , you know, I, I really feel like it's all been a gift. And many people only get so many shots. Like, there's so many writers, there's so many producers that have had one show on television and never had anything again. Mm-Hmm. . I've had a pretty decent career and I get those other shots coming up. I'll be very thankful for whatever they are. Right. So, you know, but yeah, I, I'm, I have, Tom and I have one series we're about to pitch, hopefully within three weeks. We're very excited. And

Michael Jamin:

It, comedy

Jim Serpico:

Drama, you know, the dream is, it's a comedy, you know, the dream is that that gets sold and we get a chance to write the script.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

And we get a chance to have health insurance .

Michael Jamin:

That's a big deal. Wait, do do you get, are you, you must be in the direct, you're in the Producer's Guild as well,

Jim Serpico:

Right? I'm in the Writer's Guild, The Director's Guild and the Baker's Guild. I am not in the, in the producer's guild. The Producer's Guild has no benefits. It's not the same.

Michael Jamin:

They don't have benefits.

Jim Serpico:

No. I think you get a discount on car rentals.

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's nice. There's

Jim Serpico:

Nothing else

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. I didn't know that. And so then, alright, so that's, that's what's on, on tap for you guys there. And so, but you still you know, do you still manage people at all or what or no,

Jim Serpico:

I do. I manage a couple of People com comedians. I can manage a Yeah. It would always be comedians only. I manage less people than I did. I'm just putting my time and energy into the people I represent as well as the creative projects we have. Right. And this other business that I started. But you know, you, you asked something earlier about produ types of producers. Right

Right. And there's, there are, So it's, it's, it's hard to define what a producer is because the truth is there's like 50 types of producers. Right. You have the, at the basic level, you have a creative producer who might own a book or property or some intellectual property. Mm-Hmm. . Like that's always what I was. And I am, and even, even if it's not intellectual property per se, I went out, talked to Mark Marin and, and convinced him to do television. And we came up with a night deer together that was at least the seed, that was the intellectual property. Right. And then in my role, I see it through from inception all the way to the end. And I'm also involved in the ad campaigns when the network has, you know, the pitch to what's gonna be on the poster, They run it through the executive producers.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Okay.

Jim Serpico:

Right. So I'm, I'm that kind of person, but I am never hired by anyone I have to generate or I don't. Right. It's eat when you kill. Yeah. So I have to self generate, I get a project like that going. I need a line producer who's only gonna work on that project while it goes.

Michael Jamin:

And then why don't tell everybody what a line producer does.

Jim Serpico:

Well before that, one of the reasons a line producer does the nuts and bolts of overseeing the way it's scheduled out to shoot, which all has to do with the money. Mm-Hmm. hires the crew mm-hmm. the crew answers to him or her and their team. And again, they work specifically on that show where I can have one project or five projects going at one time. Right. And then I would need five line producers to work. Right. And then under them, they have producers that work on just certain things. Right. Production managers. Right. Who really are the day in and day out of having the department heads report to them. Right. And then there's writing producers, which you could speak better to than me, but, you know, on television there's a million producers. Yeah. Most of those producers are writers. Right. You know, at some level on the staff that there's a hierarchy. Mm-Hmm. , there's, you know, the more seasoned you are, generally the higher credit you have based on precedent the more valuable you are or have made yourself, they need you. And also associated with those production credits is the amount of money you make. Right. You know, that's the other secret. It's like when you're looking at those credits, the people with the higher production credits are making more money than the people with lower production

Michael Jamin:

Credits. Except on Marin, everyone was equal

Jim Serpico:

. Yeah. Everyone was Maron. None. No one made a ton of money on that.

Michael Jamin:

Made money on. Right.

Jim Serpico:

Which I think is ultimately why it ended earlier than it could have. Like the show was performing the same mm-hmm. .

Michael Jamin:

Well, Mark didn't wanna, he felt we took the, the show as creatively as far as we could. I mean, and then I remember saying to him, you know, he's like, What do we do? We've done everything from our life. And I was like, you know, Mark, we're writers. We can come up with stuff. And he comes looked, he was like, What do you mean ? And so that's, you know, he

Jim Serpico:

Was surprising. It's interesting. I mean, that that is probably true. And that was a conversation you guys had. Mm-Hmm. my conversation was more like, we reran these on Netflix and it got triple E amount mm-hmm. of, of viewers, or not way more than triple, actually. Like, why am I doing this show originally for this type of network? Yeah. Right Now, I think I'd be better off in my career to move on. That's how I saw it. There,

Michael Jamin:

There was that, And I, and I always like, I always disagreed on that. I was like, but the fact that we get paid less, the budget's lower means we get to do what we want creatively. And I like that part. You know, I like getting, because Iffc was a good partner. They really let us do, as long as we were on budget, they let us do what we wanted to do. Which is not always

Jim Serpico:

Agree with that, but I agree with that. But, you know, he's done pretty well since he left. Yes.

Michael Jamin:

, I think he probably did. Okay. Yeah. He made the right, the right call.

Jim Serpico:

I think it's a personal decision for each person. Like, I, I would, did, did Mark think they were great partners? I don't know what his answer really would be. He didn't really have any context. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

Right. I'm not sure if Mark thinks anyone's a great partner. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

So I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. So, oh, the other producers are, are the people who leverage their way in what they have and is the control of the talent. Right. There are certain management companies that are just famous for that. Mm-Hmm. , you know, there was a, there was a, a wave in Hollywood where they were trying to cut it down, but they haven't cut that shit down.

Michael Jamin:

No. Right. No, it is, Yeah. Agents were trying to get on a as that's basically what happened. They tried to get on a, Looks like that's over with. Yeah. But yeah. Interesting.

Jim Serpico:

Oh,

Michael Jamin:

And so, Oh yeah, go on. Yeah. I didn't,

Jim Serpico:

No, I don't know. I don't know what you wanna cover. No,

Michael Jamin:

I, you know, I, we've talked about plenty, but I don't know. What do you have, what advice would you have for someone who's trying to get in other, other, I mean, you kind of stated, you know, basically started as an assistant. But I, I, because I kind of said something the other day, and maybe I was talking out of my butt, but someone asked me you know, how do I become a producer? And I go, producer's one of the most creative jobs on set because, you know, basically a writer comes up with an idea and hands and says, Can we make this happen? And the producer says either the a good producer say, All right, I'll figure out a way to make it happen. I don't, you know, and then I don't wanna know how, Don't tell me how you're gonna do it. Just make it happen. And so if you're asking, How do I become a producer, you're missing the point. You just do it. That's you a you'll, you invent it, you find a writer to team up with, you find a project, and you just make it happen on whatever money you can come up with. If it's $30,000, you could, you could've done it for less. You could've done it on an iPhone if you had to, you

Jim Serpico:

Know? Yeah, I, I agree with you a hundred percent. And in some ways I'm glad I kind of came up through trying to generate independent film, cuz that's exactly what it was. Mm-Hmm.

Michael Jamin:

.

Jim Serpico:

But, you know, it also depends on what kind of producer. When someone says, I have to, I wanna become a producer. How do I become a producer? Do they really know all these types of producers? There are no, You know, and I, I'm, I'm living through this now. Right. My, my son graduated school out in LA and he's working in the business. He doesn't really know for sure what he wants to do, and I didn't either. Right. So that's, I think that's for me, I think it might be too narrow to say I want to be a producer. I think it's, it's cool to be open minded and say, maybe I'll be a producer. Mm-Hmm. . But I think to me the best advice is get in the business and work really hard and become recognized and find mentors. Right. And find a path that may or may not be a producer. Like, if I didn't have all those steps that added up to where I am now, I probably would've had some other steps that added up to something, if that makes sense. But I probably wouldn't have been a producer.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? What

Jim Serpico:

About? Well, I didn't know I wanted to be one. Right. So like, I got a job in music and worked hard enough to book a tour, which led me to people who wanted me to book comedians, which led me to comedians wanting me to represent them, which led me to comedians wanting me to shepherd their material.

Michael Jamin:

But what about developing for your, the comedians that you work with now? I mean, what, you know, or, you know Yeah. Creating

Jim Serpico:

Shows for Yeah. But I have that, I have the, the the history and the experience to be able to do that. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

You know, that the other way to do it is, the most common way to do it is, is leverage your way in. Get a comedian, represent a comedian, work at a management company where the comedians young and ultimately 6, 7, 10 years later become really mm-hmm. , attach yourself to that person and you produce with them. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And that's very common. Right. That's,

Jim Serpico:

It's more common. But you're, you're probably not gonna have the freedom to leave the office and actually produce.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you think, Well, Uhhuh well I guess spends how many clients they have and, and how, you know, it's like you're saying, I would think they want you to protect them. You know, you know,

Jim Serpico:

Well, the problem with management is it's a 10% business.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jim Serpico:

So to make a real living and how much money is your, your guys or girls making, how much are they making? You know, and that's what the pressure is. Like these, these managers at these brillstein grays are, they have to have a book of business of two to five to $10 million. Right. Right. So they're in the office.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And then what, So what exactly. All right. So what would a manager, since you've known more about that, that area than I do, what, what exactly are they doing for their clients? These managers,

Jim Serpico:

They're putting pieces together. They are moving, they're taking stuff in. They're calling, they're reading the coverage, and they're calling up somebody at a studio and saying, This script is amazing. They never read the script. Mm-Hmm. . And they're selling it. They're selling shoes. Mm-Hmm. , they happen to be in the form of a script, and they're getting people and they're putting people together. They're moving, they're having lunches. It's all the stuff I did. Except they have a, a, you know, they're doing so much of it that they can't really do anything except put pieces together.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And they just hand it off to the next person, hand it off to the writer or whatever. Right.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So

Jim Serpico:

Interesting. I mean, there, there might be people listening to this that completely disagree with me. And listen, there are, there are plenty of Judd a Patel was a guy who could do everything. Right. He's a writer. I mean, I wish I was Judd Ato to be like, like he does it all. He really produces those movies. Mm-Hmm. , you know, he knows how to sell. He knows how to do everything. Right. So they're those people. But there's, they're the exception.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I think so too. Right. It's a little different. Cause once you create that big hit, your next show is much easier to sell, you know? Oh, yeah. You know, Much easier. So interesting. It's interesting to hear your point of view.

Jim Serpico:

Like for me, I'm still, you know, like you could say, people could say about me, whatever they want. Like, I'm, I'm 54 years old, I've been doing this for a long time. I no longer run that production company, but I could still get in the door. Right. Everywhere. Right. So I have that shot. So now they don't, they don't buy as favors, really. Mm-Hmm.

Michael Jamin:

Not anymore. Were they doing it? In the beginning

Jim Serpico:

It was easier for people right. To buy as, you know, favors and take shots. But now they're really you know, are they programming it? Is it good? So we can at least get in the door and give it our shot? And we work really hard to present something that is worthy of being bought. And once it's bought, we're in the game. Right.

Michael Jamin:

There's, but do

Jim Serpico:

You think it's different, different now there's,

Michael Jamin:

Do you think it's a little different now on streamers selling your shows? Like is, you know, as, as opposed to a networking cable?

Jim Serpico:

No, not at all. It's just more competition. Mm-Hmm. , there's a lot more players. There's a lot more pressure to take pictures from a diverse group of people, whether or not everyone's has experience, which I think is great. Mm-Hmm. . And there's a lot less money because there have been so many mergers. And these companies have all kind of combined. They don't spend the development money. Like the, the rule used to be they buy a hundred scripts in network television. Right. To make seven to eight pilots to put everywhere from anywhere from two to eight pilots into production and four series on the air.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And two of them have already been canceled. I mean, but you're not, you're not exaggerating, you know, That's exactly

Jim Serpico:

Who it was. No, no. These are the real numbers right now. There's no way they buy more than 30 scripts. You're

Michael Jamin:

Talking about networks or who are they Big networks or who

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. Well, anyone. There's no way FX is not buying. I mean,

Michael Jamin:

Well, but I, but I'm, I'm thinking I'd

Jim Serpico:

Be surprised

Michael Jamin:

Cbs, you know,

Jim Serpico:

I don't think CBS is buying more than 30 scripts.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I think you're right. It's very hard. Yeah.

Jim Serpico:

So everyone's like, Oh, there's so many places to, you know, to sell to. There's 350 million people in this country, this 300 directors that make a full time living directing television. Mm-Hmm. . You know, that's why I, you know, this whole thing about being open minded and just doing the best job you can and figure out the path as you go. I think it's very important because the odds are against anybody at any age. Un unless you're a naturally gifted singer at six years old saying, This is what I want to do. Your life is probably gonna change and take a turn. You're gonna end up doing something else, and that's okay. Right. And it could be better than you ever imagined. You know?

Michael Jamin:

Are you, are you talking about in or outta the business? You mean?

Jim Serpico:

It doesn't matter. I mean, I, I think it, if you want to get into the business, I think that's perfectly, That's, that's what you're saying. I wanna get in show business. I want to get in television. Right. I don't necessarily think, you know, I know that people listening to this are writers. They wanna write the great thing about writing. Yeah. You know, you could always write just like I did. Mm-Hmm. , I wrote on the side while I was running the production company and yeah. I was in a position, but I had to overcome like the not step over that line because cuz people didn't wanna look at us as writers. Right. We weren't like people who we represented didn't want us to succeed as writers.

Michael Jamin:

If Well, they didn't wanna help you that cuz it was an easier No, it was an easier hill to, to climb as a producer. Cuz that's where people know you, you know? Right.

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. Right. I'm talking about agents and talent.

Michael Jamin:

Well, this has been a very, very illuminating discussion, sir. Sober, but okay, I wanna thank

Jim Serpico:

You. Let me say one thing please. To the writers. Yes. Yeah. Let me say, you know, you gotta write, you gotta write every day. You gotta read every day. I've had the benefit of being able to read for 30 years. Mm-Hmm. , which helped me become a better writer. Am I the best writer? No. there, there is another path that I haven't talked about as much and I'm sure you probably can mm-hmm. better at another time with your listeners. Like if you go to school or you write at an early age or whatever age you could get in as a writer. And your writing just has to be so exceptional. And you have to understand that no one cares about your ideas cuz they all have ideas. So you need something that they can't get. Which may be getting the rights to some really important article or interesting article. So even if your script is a B and not an A, the concept is so great. That's sellable the property. And if someone's gonna rewrite it, great. And that's, you know, take the credit.

Michael Jamin:

You're saying something which I say over and over again. Right. I mean, and so when you're reading scripts, how, like, how many pages in before you give up on it?

Jim Serpico:

Not many. Yeah. I hate reading scripts. They're so bad. It

Michael Jamin:

Are so bad. Right. And you're reading scripts from these are professional cal, these scripts that came from agents and managers, they've already been vetted to some degree. Right?

Jim Serpico:

Absolutely.

Michael Jamin:

Right. So, and even then, if they're not hooking you, you're just gonna toss it. And so

Jim Serpico:

A hundred percent Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And so many people

Jim Serpico:

Think, but there's nothing better. There's nothing better than sitting down with a script that, that hooks you and you'll, you re he actually read it and you know what? People are gonna gimme shit, y'all. You don't read the thing. You know, I spent so much time. No, I've got fucking 100 scripts a weekend to read. I'm not gonna fucking read 'em all.

Michael Jamin:

But this is exactly what I say. And I also say, if you were watching a TV show are you're gonna say, Well it's gonna get good around the 40 minute rock. No, I'll just click, I'll find something else. I mean, they're the same, the viewers the same way. Like there's too much choices. I don't have to suffer through it. And if it's gonna get good on page, you know, 50. Well, it should have been good on page two. Sorry. Yeah.

Jim Serpico:

But if I, I could like for, and it's also personal. If I love the script, even if it's hard to sell, I'm gonna try to sell it. Right. You know, like I'm okay if not everyone's gonna love it. Mm-Hmm. , you know, as long as it fits something that I would watch. Cuz that's the other thing I've always done. Would I watch it? Right. I'm not just trying to develop something I could sell.

Michael Jamin:

Right. . Yeah. Right. That's

Jim Serpico:

So funny. Why are you laughing?

Michael Jamin:

Because I say all this and sometimes I think, and so people, sometimes people are like, Man, this guy's spitting truth. And it's like, Yeah, but I'm not making it up. It's just like, this is what, this is how it is. It's like I, I think there's a misunderstanding of the reality of what he, what show business is like. It's like, you know and

Jim Serpico:

It's a hard business, man. I'll, I'll end it with that. Mm-Hmm. . It's cutthroat. Mm-Hmm. . It's not easy to, You could go get a show, maybe you could make a script deal. Can you make a 40 year career out of it? I don't know. It's

Michael Jamin:

Getting harder. It's getting harder for sure. , It's getting harder. Yeah. . Yep. . On that note, Jim Cerco, thank you so much for doing this. Is this is a great talk. I knew it would be, but I want to remind everybody, go check out your podcast Bred for the People. It's on every podcast platform, right? Yeah.

Jim Serpico:

The Steve, every podcast platform, the Steve Leb bla episode relates to television and data and testing and it's pretty interesting. Yeah. Think people get a kick out of it.

Michael Jamin:

Is there social media people should be following you too, or what?

Jim Serpico:

Yeah. on Facebook we are Bread for The People Podcast. Mm-Hmm. on Facebook and then on Instagram at Jim Serpico.

Michael Jamin:

Go follow this guys. This guy's spitting truth. Thank you my friend. Thank you so much for, for doing this. This was

Jim Serpico:

A pleasure. Thank you.

Michael Jamin:

Okay everyone, thank you so much. Until next week. Hey, it's Michael. One more thing. Come see me perform. I'm going to be in Boston area, actually Amesbury, Massachusetts on November 12th and 13th at the actor studio performing my show, a paper orchestra. And then I'm gonna be back in Los Angeles on December 10th and 11th again at the Moving Arts Theater Company. So tickets are on sale. Go get 'em at michael jamin.com/live. It's a small, intimate venue. I'm gonna be performing for my collection of personal essays and each one's gonna be followed by like a 20 minute q and a. We get to talk about the work. It's a fun event. So I hope to see you there. Go get them tickets again are at michaeljamin.com slash live. And of course, sign up to my weekly newsletter that's called the watchlist michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook and @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

It's our 52nd episode, which marks one full year of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. In this episode, Phil Hudson gets to ask Michael his questions after another year of progress in his Hollywood career.

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Michael Jamin:

All writers en very few working writers that I know enjoy writing. We enjoy having written. So it's like, Oh, I just finished the script. That felt good cuz it was so hard. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jen.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this, our podcast. I'm Michael Jam, and I'm here with Phil Hudson. Welcome back Phil. Thank you. It's good to be back. We, we have a special, It's good to be back. We have a special a special episode. Phil has been, you know, he's been doing co-hosting this for about a year now, and, you know, we've been handling a lot of stuff together and I guess these are your questions that you've had after a year of doing this. You know, I guess you have your own thoughts about what, what you wanna learn more, even though you're so close to, to me and we're doing it together. I guess you have more questions, so let's dig in. Yeah. Does that sound what I feel?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it's pretty close. I mean, I think it's, it's not even pretty close. It's basically what we're doing today. This thought came to me because, you know, I'm involved in the podcast. I go through the q and as with you, I hear all of these questions. I listen to a lot of your live q and as when you do them on social media. And then I look at where I'm at in my screenwriting world. I've taken your course, I've taken other courses. I got a bachelor's degree in screenwriting, you know, story development mm-hmm. . and so it's really more the nuanced questions that I have about the craft and career and you know, looking at where I'm at now, six years into my Hollywood career, progressing from a pa doing an associate producer and mm-hmm. , you know, three seasons on a show, hopefully moving into

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You've come a long way in that time. Yeah. It's come a long way.

Phil Hudson:

I know. It's, it's it's humbling to look back on it because it doesn't feel like it at the time. A lot of time it doesn't feel like getting that coffee or going on that drive in LA traffic at 5:00 PM for, because someone forgot to send an email at 12 noon. You know, it's kind of hard to remember that. And even very helpful as a mentor and a friend to kind of guide me and be a sounding board and talk me off the ledge when I'm super stressed out about all the craziness happening.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

But it's been, it's been very helpful to, to have that opinion. And I think there are some of these questions that reflect where I'm at in my career. I think they'll be helpful to a lot of people at all stages. But for me, I think that, you know, you say there's no intermediate writing, it's all writing 1 0 1. This might be more career advice, I guess you could say

Michael Jamin:

Career 1 0 1. Sure. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Sure. So, we'll, you know, we'll dive in and, and, you know, just kind of jazz. I'm not a jazz fan, but we'll jazz it a little bit about some of these questions. I'm not looking for anything specific, it's just more your thoughts on these things. Okay. So, you know, as, as we've discussed on the podcast, I'm a big fan of personal development

Michael Jamin:

And Yeah. More than anyone I know. Yeah, yeah,

Phil Hudson:

For sure. Love it. I love growing and, and developing and, and books are my number way of doing, one way of doing that. Mm-Hmm. , there's a really powerful book by a guy named Josh Waitzkin called The Art of Learning. And one of the things he talked about, he was the, you know, did we talk about him on the podcast? Does this

Michael Jamin:

Don't, The name doesn't, it's not familiar. No.

Phil Hudson:

So, Josh Wakin was the premise, the, the child behind the, the book searching for Bobby Fisher, which became a movie. He was a chess prodigy at like the age of eight, like an International Grand Master by 17. And then he left that and he became a Tai Chi push hands world champion in his twenties. And then he became a Brazilian jujitsu black belt. And he coaches hedge fund managers on on high level performance. And he's a, he's a foiler, you know what foiling is?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. Like fencing?

Phil Hudson:

No. So this is, this is a little bit different. It's like surfing, but then there's a, a fin Oh, that goes in the water. And so you're actually above the water, so there's less drag. So you're going super fast

Michael Jamin:

Hydrofoils. Right, Okay.

Phil Hudson:

So he is, he is a professional foiler now too. And he's constantly mastering different things. One of the things he talks about, you know, he starts with fundamentals. You know, he says most people start with openings in chess or in juujitsu or whatever it is you're doing. He likes to start at the end, at the end game and really say, Here's where I'm headed. What happens if I get stuck in this position where there's like three pieces on the board? And he talks about you have to learn the fundamentals, and then after you've done it enough times, you get enough volume of repetition in, you get to a point where you start looking at the, making what he calls, making small circles, big circles, right? Mm-Hmm. . So you, you examine one position in chess or Brazilian jiujitsu enough, and then you can find a thousand ways out of that, where someone might only have one.

And, and in this, in a world of screenwriting, I think about, okay, here's story structure. Here are the three elements of story. Those are kind of the fundamental things you have to know to be able to write a script. Mm-Hmm. . But then there's improving dialogue, improving jokes, all those things. I'm just wondering from your perspective, where are places people can look for those circles? Like, you know, I said a couple of them, you know, act breaks, you know, making those pop jokes, whatever. Just wondering if you have any thoughts on that. What are those circles where we can spend more time and really develop? Or where have you spent time?

Michael Jamin:

Oh you know, sometimes you'll think of a, sometimes, we'll, my partner and I were writing, you know, we'll think of what's a bad story? How can, what's, what's a good version of a bad story? Or you'll see, you'll watch other shows and you'll, you'll see, okay, how are they doing this? And what don't I like about it? How could I, how could I do this? We do this all the time. We'll watch a movie or a show, and we'll talk about what we don't like about it and how we would've done it differently. It's just a thought experiment. We won't spend too much too long on it. And it's not because we're trying to bag on it. We're just trying to think, Okay, there must be another way around this. You know? It's very easy. I think it's very easy for new writers to think, Well, my first idea is that that's the one I'll go with. And that's so not often not the case. Usually before you start writing, you'll explore a number of different areas and go down and then, and then come back to the one, Even if it's the, the first one is the great one, you'll still explore other areas first just to make sure that you feel you're on good footing, That you haven't gone, that you're not just doing the first thing that came to your head. So that, I think that's one way to open your mind a little bit.

Phil Hudson:

That's awesome. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And you can watch bad shows too, and learn a lot from bad shows.

Phil Hudson:

Got it. Do you have any specific writing exercises you've done over the year to improve specific aspects of your writing? Like again, joked joke telling or things like that?

Michael Jamin:

Well, that, I talk, I've talked about this a little bit where when I was on King of the Hill, we just got there and I was in the joke room that day, so it was like five, five of us, and we were assigned to punch up like a, a scene. And I was eager to impress everybody. So I start, I pitched this joke and got a big laugh in the room and then, and so I was like, Oh, that's the winner, right? So they sent me off to the short runners, were in a different room, and I pitched in this joke and they go, Oh, everyone's laughing. They're all, they loved it. And they go, Great, come back with five more. And I was like, I don't understand. I just, I just pitched it in a room, got a big laugh, I pitched it to you, You guys loved it.

You left. Why, why am I doing five more? I felt like busy work now. I was getting paid a lot, so I was like, I didn't say anything. I was like, Okay, I'll go back and do five more. But I was a little resentful of it. And I went back and I came up with 10 more. And of those 10, a couple of them were just as good, You know, they were just as good. I think I, I don't remember, I don't even remember which one we wound up using. That's how unimportant it is to be attached to one joke. It was, it really opened my mind to explore the fact that there's no one right way, and you can always do better and you can always top it. And all these jokes are disposable. And then I became really good at it. I really became good at joke writing when it was like, when I was less attached to any one of them. And then you really, and it was almost like, you know, showing off. You're like, Okay, I could do this again. I could do more. No problem, not a problem. I could do more.

Phil Hudson:

Hmm. Is that something that you drilled ever, or, I mean, that sounds like a drill almost, but does that something you ever said at home and just practiced?

Michael Jamin:

Not when I didn't do a practice, but I remember being in rooms with some of the staff writers, and we were in the joke room. This is at King of the Hill. And and they were on, so we're pitching on a joke. And then some of them, they were new, so they were pitching lines that weren't good yet. And I took it as a challenge. How can I make the line that they said, How can I make that funny and then use it and then give them credit? You know what I'm saying? It was more, it was like a, it really was just a test for me. Like, they'd pitch it and I go, Nah, that's not good, but what about this? And I twist their words around and I add it on a little bit, and then I get a laugh and I go, Good for you. So you did it. You know? And I give 'em credit for it. But that was part of me just I was really doing for myself. How can I, you know, it was more of a challenge.

Phil Hudson:

Got it. It, it seems to me from my conversations with you and the conversations on the podcast, that the real, and again, this is just speculation. It seems like the real place where you're getting in these repetitions and practicing this stuff is just sitting down with sea, your writing partner and just writing and writing and writing and writing. Would you say that's accurate? Is that,

Michael Jamin:

Is that the Yeah, I mean, we write so much. I don't even remember what we've written. Sometimes we'll revisit an idea from years ago and I forgot all about it. Or sometimes we're writing so much, I forget the names of the characters of a, you know, a pilot we're writing or, you know, Cause we do do a lot of it. You know, we're constantly working. And so yeah, you know, there's, there's always work to be done. There's always new stuff to come up with.

Phil Hudson:

I had that conversation with Steve Lemy. I was over at his house helping him with his internet and getting his stuff set up for posts for Tacoma fd. And I saw this stack of scripts just on his bookshelf. And I said, Yeah. Oh, are those your scripts? And he says, Yeah, that's, that's a bunch of 'em I've written. I said, That's fascinating. We started talking about where I'm at in my career and some of the other opportunities I've been offered to go down the producing route versus the writing route. And, and trying to get his feedback. And he said, You know, I'm gonna call BS on anybody who says that they took a producing job. And then that stopped them from being a writer. Because if you wanna be a writer, you can write and you can just write and you can just find time to write. Cause that's what you have to do. He said, You know, I used to work when I was waiting tables, I'd work two doubles so that I had five days of just writing time, and that's what I would do. Oh, wow. And he said, I wrote good 20 scripts. I've taken 10 out. Four of 'em have been made, says, so this, you just gotta keep writing and writing and writing, and if you wanna be a writer, you can make it happen.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. So that's, he's successful. So there you go.

Phil Hudson:

If you had to ballpark how many scripts you've made, how many do you think you've done?

Michael Jamin:

How many we've written?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. You and c written just ballpark.

Michael Jamin:

Well, are you talking about ones that have been produced or like ones that haven't sold?

Phil Hudson:

It's just specs. You've written

Michael Jamin:

Specs. Geez. you know, dozens. He's, I mean, I mean more than dozens specs that we've, I mean,

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I'm not necessarily talking about like you're on staff and you get a script, but I'm talking more like you and Seabert sit down and you come up with an idea. You're not on a show and you're just writing and you're riding. You take it out, you pitch. It doesn't go anywhere. Yeah. Maybe it goes somewhere.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. you know, probably less than 50, but a lot. Plenty. Yeah. And, and some of them we've sold and some of them haven't. Most, well, most of them haven't, you know? Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

So just I think that kind of puts into perspective the amount of work you have to put out there to Yeah. Make it,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. 50 may be a little high, but, you know, it's a lot. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. There you go. All right. So having known you and your wife for many years at this point, I think one of the things that I appreciate about you is that you really seem to have a really strong work life balance, Right? You talk about how you go on walks with your wife, you know? Yeah. You, you prioritize that alone time with, with her. You raised two daughters. You know, you've, you've got what, again, what I would say is pretty strong or significant work life balance. I'm just wondering how you prioritize things in your life, life.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I actually, I was thinking about this the other day myself, and I probably would've been a more successful writer had I worked the game, had I networked more, had I gone to more functions and soc been more social for sure. But it was just never my priority. I always want, I like being at home. I like being with my family. I think I'm extremely lucky that when my children were, were little, those, those years, you know, the, they go, they fly by those little, and I was always home that I worked. It was just, I was just luck that I was always home every night to give them a bath and read 'em a story. Because on most sitcoms at the time, maybe it's different now, but you know, you could work easily till 10 or midnight every single night. And I got lucky that I wasn't, I was on King of the Hill at the time and the hours were pretty good on King of the Hill. And so it just so happened that the hours that I needed to be home for my children were, they were the ones, it coincided with my career, but I always put my family above my career. And the only time, if there was any instance, it was only because I needed to do my career so that I could pay the bills so that I could, you know, But it was never the career. I just don't understand that like, you know, like Tom Brady's, I guess he's getting, probably getting

Phil Hudson:

A divorce. Yeah, I saw that today.

Michael Jamin:

And it's because he loves football. He doesn't need the money. He loves football more than anything else. Like, no, that's not, that wouldn't have been the case for me. My family comes first, so I, you know, it's so, it's shocking to me, but that's how much she loves football. But there are other writers as well, I know that feel the same way. You know, they, their career is more important to than anything else. Like, alright. And that's why I don't even put any stock in you know awards or Emmy's or whatever. I'm like, and Emmy would be nice and so far it would help you get more work and probably raise your quote. But the actual thing on shelf helds absolutely no appeal to me. It doesn't do anything for me.

Phil Hudson:

It's fascinating cuz I think a lot of people, myself included, we we seek those types of things. We seek acknowledgement and mm-hmm. , you know, I've heard other writers refer to as the the Good Boy syndrome. Like, you just want to be the teacher's pet and you want to prove that you're, you're capable of doing things. Mm-Hmm. . So I know a lot of people who are pursuing those things and they're pursuing clout and fame. But that's something I do appreciate and respect about you. And it's things people don't know about you. I mean, you've taken time during your career to become fluent in Italian. I mean, I was, if watch you have full blown conversations with Italians and it's, I get it because I'm fluent in Spanish, You speak Spanish as well, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I just love that. I love languages.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. You've got a beautiful, you've got a background in marketing. You're, you're probably just as competent as a marketer as I am, if not more. So you helped your wife with her business you know, you're a businessman. And, and I think that's a, a fascinating trait. Cause I, I wondered this because I wondered it, it almost seems like you have to be deeply obsessed with something in order to become extremely proficient, proficient at that thing in a way that we might consider the top 1% of the top 1%. The Tarantinos, the fros, the Rodriguez is the, you know, and those people, they just, they know every film. They know how cameras work, they know how lighting lighting works there. You know, Fros developed this new format for filmmaking with the void, right? He's he, he's taken gaming engines and used them to produce real to life lighting systems inside a contained environment. You don't have to be outside for like, it's, it's wild.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

I wonder how you balance that in a family. I

Michael Jamin:

Really do. And that's the thing, I I, it wouldn't, like, I'm not that driven. I'm just not. And in terms of the stuff that I like learning, I, I enjoy learning. I've always, that's, I was a nerd in high school, so all that stuff is like, Oh, I can learn a language that sounds fun. I can learn this little skill set that's, I like learning, but I don't it's not the that the process of learning is more interesting to me than actually, you know I'm just not driven. I'm, I'm not as driven as I maybe I thought I would be. I I don't need to have you know, I don't need to be king of Hollywood. It just doesn't, As long as I'm doing my, I mean, I honestly, as long as I'm doing what I want to do, spending the day doing what I want to do, and I don't need to make a ton of money that's not, it's not the money that's driving me. It's the fact that I get to spend my days doing what I want to do.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Quality of life. And I think that's where I'm at right now. And, and we've had these conversations cuz I'm behind on many of the deadlines for the stuff that I want to do for your website and the things that we've committed to doing for the members of your course. And, you know, I had to take a step back for three weeks to have other guests. I would've loved to have been on phone call on these conversations with these guests that you had. But it just was a priority for me to step aside and just focus on other things because I'm so overcommitted in so many aspects of my life. I'm literally not doing the things I enjoy. Like, I enjoy doing this. And I told you this, I enjoy doing this podcast more than most things I do in my life. And I had to take time away from that to get thing's so that I could focus on those things.

Michael Jamin:

But you're also a pleaser. You enjoy helping people. That's your thing. And sometimes you bite off more than you chew and you can chew because you wanna, you, like, that's part of your, you get joy in helping people.

Phil Hudson:

Sure. I do. And it, but it's this balance aspect of, you know, if it's being detrimental to my time to write and I'm not writing, then why am I doing this for, Right. Why do I live in LA if I'm not writing? Why am I working as a, in post production on TV show if I'm not writing? And then it's that balance. And then at the same time, I've got a daughter that I just love to death and I've got another, a son on the way and another very shortly Yep. You know, six weeks out from this point. So.

Michael Jamin:

Wow.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. So it's, it's fascinating and it's something that I just really appreciate about you is it seems like you have this work life balance and it's, it's, I would say that despite the fact that you're not, you're saying you're not driven. I mean, again, not always riding, always riding.

Michael Jamin:

Right. But I'm not doing the things and I have no problem with, I don't have any regrets, but I'm not, I'm not schmoozing, I'm not making the circuit. I'm not I'm definitely not like there are, and I know there are writers who do that, who are always looking, Ooh, how can that person help me? How can I spend time in their and their be in their grace to advance my career? I see it and it, it doesn't appeal to me. So

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Really fascinating. So it kind of brings up the, the next question I had here, which is about relationships. Mm-Hmm. , you know, you've got beautiful relationships from a career. That's why a lot of these people have offered to be on the podcast with you and you ask them, and it's not for personal gain. I mean just listening to the introduction to Rob Cohen on the podcast where you describe him as a friend, it's, it was a beautiful thing. And it makes me emotional thinking about that deep level relationship with someone you've worked with. Yeah. And I'm just wondering like, what do you do to cultivate and maintain those great relationships with these people?

Michael Jamin:

And that's another hard thing. Like other people would probably do more. I know other people would do more. So I've worked writers and have been friends with them, and then when you leave, the show gets canceled, you go on a different show, then you kind of, you kind of go your ways. And it would've been smarter of me to continue cultivating many of those relationships. But, you know, life gets in the way, my family gets in the way. I'd rather be with my family. And so it would've helped me more had, had I done that, but this is what I was willing to do. And so, but there are a handful of course that I still ta you know, maintain you know, a connection with, you know, your, the closest ones. So those are the ones that, you know, I hang onto.

Phil Hudson:

All right. So this is something that I think about a lot too. And I think one thing that I'm really good at is I'm really good at learning things. I'm really good at understanding things and conceptualizing them and reducing them down to a very simple to understand palatable process. I remember the first time I met you in person, I, I came out to a twirly girl at your wife's company in, in downtown LA And we were just kind of talking when I got there cause I was helping you guys with something and you were like, so do you have like a degree in computer science or something? I was like, No, I'm a college dropout. At the time I wasn't even in film school at the time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You knew a lot about a lot of different things for websites. I mean, like, you know, a lot,

Phil Hudson:

You know, and it, and it's just because that's just a gift that I think I have is I can take these things and I understand how to think about 'em and ask the right questions to the right people. And then I'll put in the time and I'll, I'll beat my head against the rock to figure out how to do it. Yeah. To the point where I can kind of guess almost like a principal of like how things are gonna work. But knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is the application of knowledge. Right. And I think about how much time I spent learning the craft of screenwriting and learning how to do this stuff and so little time doing the craft of screenwriting during that time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You gotta continue. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

I was wondering if you had a ballpark ratio of how much time someone should spend learning versus doing. Because just doing doesn't mean you're going to be successful and you can continue to spend your time. But as we talked about on a recent podcast episode, just because you did, you you've done it doesn't mean it's good and you might need a pro to teach you how to do it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, I think in the beginning I would, I would try probably say half and half. You'd probably have to study and then, and then continue to write. And, and, but writing is, that's how you, that's how you get better as well. I mean, even when I was putting together in my book I look at some of the early stories and I compare it to the ones towards the end of the book and I'm like, Oh, I gotta go back and rewrite the beginning ones because even while I was writing the book, I grew as a writer and I got better and I can see it. I can see, and that's only because Icontinue working, you know, writing,

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jam. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jam.com/watchlist.

Phil Hudson:

It almost feels to me, and if I could go back to 2008 when I started this I was writing because I didn't have the fear of what I didn't know. And then I quickly learned, I knew so little that I put a lot of fear and failure into me and it helped me back. And I felt like I needed to chase more knowledge and understanding so that I could do something good. The first at bat. And that's something you always said was writing is rewriting and, and what you the first draft, right? It's the, you know, part in the language. It's the shit draft or the crappy draft or the vomit drafts as I've heard are

Michael Jamin:

Called. And that's exactly what I just saw in this interview that Aaron Sorkin gave. And I was like, Yeah, he said the same thing. It's always about the second draft. It's like, yeah, it's, but that's not like, it's not, it's not, it's not me and Aaron Sorkin believe this. It's me, Aaron Sorkin and every other working writer believe this. So it's all the same.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. But, but to to that point, it's, you have to get it out and you have to practice it. So if I could go back rather than obsessing about knowing everything, I think I would start and I would learn something and then I would practice that thing and I would practice that thing 5, 10, 12, a hundred times and then I moved to the next thing and I'd practice that thing over and over and over again. And I think what's beautiful about what you've done, and again, for anyone who wants to know why you have a screenwriting course I pushed you to, because I wanted that information outta your brain. And I think that's so beautiful about it is you've conceptualized from start to finish. Here is what you need to know and understand to be a professional writer, you need to understand these three story points.

They have to be, these elements have to exist in your story. And most of the time you have problems cuz you're forgetting one of these things or they're not. Plus they're not great. You know, they're just okay. Yeah. And you have your story structure, you have all those beautiful things in there that you can go in and just learn something and practice, practice, practice, then move to the next thing. Practice, practice, practice. And I just had a conversation with another another student in your course, Kevin, who I consider to be a peer at this point. You know, he's a script coordinator on another show and he's, we've been holding each other accountable in our writing to get better all year. And it's been really, really powerful in having that working relationship with someone. Yeah. But, but that's the conversation is like, I almost feel like I want to come up with 12 to a hundred different story ideas that could be plot, you know, stories, and then I wanna move to breaking stores and I just wanna break a hundred stories and then move to the next step and then move to the next step.

Right. Just so I can hone that skill to get it to some muscle memory

Michael Jamin:

There a hundred would be a lot to break, but

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, I know, I know that's an exaggerated number, but that's my ridiculous brain. But even 12, right? Do 12 of those, you know? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

So yeah, for sure. Anyway, I think I think that's the advice I would give people who are wondering what they could do to be more successful faster is just learn the fundamentals and practice the fundamentals and drill, drill, drill as much as you can. Mm-Hmm.

Michael Jamin:

. Yeah. You know, you,

Phil Hudson:

You talk about the, the power of being a professional, which is you just show up and you're right, even if you don't feel like it. And I'm fortunate enough to have clients who are Navy Seals who wrote a bunch of New York Times bestselling books and one of those guys, Jock will, he has this saying, discipline equals freedom. And he's like, you think discipline will hold you back, but discipline will actually set you free because you're not mired in emotion and you're not dependent on motivation. It's just, this is a discipline and I do it no matter what because I am the master of my body or I'm the master of, of my, my not inhibitions, but your desires. And so you just, you do it. Do you seem to me to be very much that type of person you do it because it's a discipline? Do you Yeah. Ever look at rewards as a reason to do something? Like you have any boards you provide to yourself?

Michael Jamin:

Just when you said the other, just when you said this, I was like, Oh yeah, I went, I went for run, I run three days a week. I used to do it more, but three days, like now I do other stuff and then I run past the same guy Henry, he lives in my neighborhood and I see him almost always almost cuz he's outside his house almost at the same time. We always talk for a little bit and he is like, Boy, you really, you, it's like clockwork, you're always running. And I was like, I guess so I don't even think about it. I just, every other day I just go running. It's like I don't even, you know. Yeah. It's, there's the discipline, they just do it. There's no excuses, just do it. But in terms of the reward, you know, I am obviously I am, you know, you build, you'll never get to the reward.

Like I heard Stallone say, he said like, this is what life is. You build a, you build a mountain, you climb to the top and then you build another mountain to climb. So is there ever, do you ever get there? Now you'll never get there. You know, that's, but the, the journey is what's it, that's what it all is. It's just, that's all part of it. And even now I have things that I, I'm chasing, you know, putting on my, my one man show and making that bigger and, and taking on the road. But I see other people who are doing it more successfully than I am for sure. And I'm, that's, that's my hill I'm building, so, yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Got it. So for you, it's almost the, you know, the cliche, I would call it a cliche saying of the joys and the journey. Do you actually find that joy in the journey or do you have, you

Michael Jamin:

Know, you know, there's guy who was, is he talks about this he's a doctor, I think it's Arico maul or I think his, his name is. And he talks about when people climb Mount Ev Everest, it takes months and months and months of to training and, and acclimation. And then they get to the base camp and then they climb ever. And it takes more and more time. And then when they get to the top of Everest, what do they do? They take a selfie, they're there for about five minutes and they head back down. So the reward is not top of Mount Everest. If it was, they would spend their life there. The reward is the journey is the doing of it. And so yeah, that's that's pretty much it. If you're not enjoying the, if listening, if you're not enjoying the journey, you're not gonna enjoy the destination. , you're, you're not. So you have to enjoy if you, you know, do something else. If you, if you feel like it's really hard and, and you don't, you're not getting enough out of it.

Phil Hudson:

How do you reconcile that with something I've heard you say before, which is writing is not necessarily fun. And if you're having fun, you might not be actually writing. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

It's because that's easy because I, all writers, very few working writers that I know enjoy writing, we enjoy having written. So it's like, oh, I just finished the script. That felt good cuz it was so hard. So, and I, I get now, I guess you're saying, well is that the, that's the destination having finished the script? I, I mean I guess that's, to me that's part of the process as opposed to Sure. The deal or the show.

Phil Hudson:

You've sure. You know, it's, it's the high, the runner's high, right? It's you, it's a benefit that you get from doing it. It's not the thing you chase. Right? Yeah. You don't run to get a runner's high. It's just a benefit. And I think what I was asking about rewards, I think what I was really asking is like, do you ever set a milestone and say, When I do this, I will reward myself with that because, and, and let me preface this by saying I feel like I might be too smart for that system. It's like, you know, weight loss, like, oh, if you hit this bench start you can go get a pizza. It's like, but I could just go get a pizza. I could go do that right now. And, and so that system's never worked for me. And so it, what works for me more is not focusing on what I necessarily want to get out of it. It's what I don't want or don't want to continue to endure. If that makes sense. Yeah. That causes a lot of change for me.

Michael Jamin:

I I'm supposed to, I know what you're saying. I'm, I'm supposed to celebrate more. And I know Cynthia's always, my wife's always saying like no, we're celebrating now cuz you just did something great. And I'm like, but I haven't, I'm not, we're not there where I wanna be yet. You know, She goes, Yeah, but it doesn't matter. We you still did this, that what you did was pretty great. So I, she helped me celebrate those little things.

Phil Hudson:

Your your wife is awesome. Like that woman is a saint. She's such a wonderful person. Like we need mores in the world. And and I love that so much. Like, she makes you appreciate your time. My wife does the same thing. She's just like, Right, you should go get a new car. I was like, Why? So you deserve it. I was like, I don't deserve it.

Michael Jamin:

,

Phil Hudson:

My car works just hard. Did

Michael Jamin:

You get, did you get a new car?

Phil Hudson:

We just bought a new car last night for her

Michael Jamin:

For her. What, what did, what'd you get?

Phil Hudson:

We got a VW atlas. We found a 2019 is with

Michael Jamin:

Is that like, it's an suv,

Phil Hudson:

It's like a three row suv. It's like the biggest need need to, Yeah, it's based off of the, the Audi QR eight or whatever like that model, which I guess is based off of some Lamborghini. That's what the salesman was telling us. My wife was all print and you know, fortunately I could provide that opportunity to her, but I was I was in San Jose over the weekend and I was driving my mother-in-law's car and the engine blew while I was driving like smoke and everything. So we, we have an opportunity to, to do something nice for my mother-in-law and provide a better experience for my wife. So that's why we did it. Right. I am, I don't reward myself so much that I'm still driving my 2011 Kia Sportage with 238,000 miles on it.

Michael Jamin:

2011. Interesting. You know, my Jeep is 2005, 2005 film .

Phil Hudson:

You love that thing though. You love your jeep.

Michael Jamin:

I do.

Phil Hudson:

Michael, I rodee in that Jeep. Once Michael took me like it was in LA and he took me to go get noodles. We got, we got far or something.

Michael Jamin:

Oh right, right, right.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Spilled all over my shirt. That's what you want when you meet. Someone you consider mentors is just spilling noodles all over your

Michael Jamin:

Shirt. Yeah, I remember that, right. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

A funny, he remembers the noodles being on my

Michael Jamin:

Shirt. Not, no, I don't remember that. But I remember going, getting far or whatever. Yeah. Right.

Phil Hudson:

Well I got a couple, a couple other follow up questions here cause I know we're getting a little long winded, but you know, I appreciate this conversation because I think it's really helping me shape my, my mind around where I'm at at this stage in my, my life and my career. I'm wondering what you do in terms of outside influences and to preface this again I spend a lot of time breaking myself away from news and, and information that's mostly negative. I deleted social media, my, for my phone for a long time stopped looking at the news altogether. And I had a teacher in film school who got pretty angry with me. It was like, how can you be a good citizen of the world if you don't understand what's happening in the world? I was like, well, I had Twitter on my phone. It's one of the few things I kept and it keeps me up to date, real time with what's happening in the world from, you know, sources that I trust. But I'm just wondering what you do do. I mean, do you spend time looking in thinking about these things? And if so, how does that influence your writing?

Michael Jamin:

I, I do, I read a lot. I read a lot of David Saaris and so he had new book come on. I obviously devoured that the second I got it I'm reading another writer a book by a guy named Ocean Wong. And his, I love then his title, his book it's Unearth. We're briefly gorgeous. And I'm like, That's, that's perfect. Like that title on earth we're briefly gorgeous. Think about that. The rhythm is perfect on Earth. We're briefly gorgeous. And what does it say? It says, it says, but that's, maybe we're gorgeous somewhere else, but on here. We all have a moment to shine. We all have one and it's brief and it's fleeting. I just love like, man, that guy and just listening. I've heard him on a couple, not a podcast, but a radio interview and I'm like, and you know, he is young and I'm like, man, this guy's a fricking poet.

He is a poet. And so I'm reading him and I'm really appreciating the way he writes. It's, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna use any of it. I'm not gonna use, it's not gonna influence my writing at all. I just appreciate there's no place for it in what I do, but I really have a strong appreciation for what he does. And so finding just looking for other ma you know, not other, but looking for masters and just seeing how they do it. Like David Zaris is a master of what he does. I just really, I enjoy that. I enjoy seeing other people performing, working at their best, putting their best out there, like man, cuz there are people doing amazing stuff.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. That's awesome. Similar to this, you know, if, if that stuff's not affecting you, do you feel that it inspires you to do better? Like does it push you to, to reach for that next ledge, the next find to that next limb?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean I like, like I would just, it's so hard. But I, I would love, like, I would love that. I would love for people to look at my work, particularly my collection that I put in. I'd love for people to say, Man, that was really great. And I, that's for someone else to decide whether it is or it isn't. But that when I'm doing these shows, I'm like, I, I want someone to leave each show. Like the goal for me in good writing is not whether you're enjoying it at the moment, but how do you feel when it's over? How long does it stick with you? And if I can make someone get in their car after the each show, that's what I'm, that's what I'm going for. I don't know if, I dunno if anyone's had this breakdown or not, but just hesitate from 'em before putting the key in the ignition and just kind of just sit there almost like , like they just need a moment alone.

Just before they get in the car, before they start the car. That's what I, that's what I'm always trying to do. And I always, I even think about that growing up I used to go with my dad into the city. Like, you know, he had an office job and sometimes I'd put on my little clip on time and go sit in his office for, you know, it was horribly boring, but that's what I would do. And during those train rides, my dad, he always did his head in a fricking book. And that's how, that's what it was. Everyone in that commuter train from, from where we lived to the city, everyone, this is before phones. And so everyone had a book and I, and to me when I'm writing, I'm thinking, can I get that person who's reading the book? Can I get them to laugh out loud? Cuz that seems to be a high, a high bar cuz they're in their own world. Can I get 'em to laugh out loud? And those are the people I'm thinking about when I'm writing.

Phil Hudson:

Hmm. That's beautiful man. I think it again, you know, as you said earlier, you're not, you're not motivated by golden statues. You're not motivated by for recognition. It's, it's about the personal touch, right? It's about how can you influence one person in a way that that impacts them to stop and think and separate and contemplate the things that you're putting out there. Which yeah. Yeah, that's, I think it's an admiral pursuit.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Thank you.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Tie this back to what you discussed earlier about your runs. I actually have this written here. There's a great book that you probably haven't read called The Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter.

Michael Jamin:

No,

Phil Hudson:

You should check it out. Is basically he's a professor at U N L V, I believe University of Nevada Las Vegas. And yeah, he basically talks about why challenging ourselves and pushing ourselves to our limits for no other reason than just pushing ourselves to our limits is a well is an endeavor well worth pursuing. And culturally it's been done for millennia, but it's something that we no longer do, at least in American society. It's not really something that we push ourselves to do. But I definitely thought of you because I remember you telling the story about there's a hill by your house that you run almost every day. And I believe there was one time where you I think you tripped and fell and there was like a snake right in front of you. So

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it was a rattlesnake. No, I didn't trip. I was climbing up this hill on all fours . There

Phil Hudson:

You go. It's on the ground.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. It was a rattlesnake. I said, I'm taking the day off . I went, Wards

Phil Hudson:

Enough for you. But, but what, what pushes you to climb the hill? Like, and, and you know, and maybe we already answered this, but I think it's something that's fascinating because it's something I'm considering because there's a Japanese term for this he talks about in the book, and I apologize to everyone, I don't have it. You can, you can look at Michael Easter and I'm sure he talks about it, but it's, it's a ritual, a rite of passage that you do and you don't talk about it. It's not something you put on social media. It's not something you talk about to your friends. And except for the people who are doing that with you, it's not about cloud or versus signaling or, you know, show boating. Oh wow. Something you do in the privacy of your own home or by yourself, just for you and to me. Yeah. You know, I know about this cuz you published the fact that you, on social media, that you fell in front or you were, you had a rattlesnake right in front of you, which is something you promise, obviously. But why do you, why do you run the hill? What makes you run up the hill?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you know, that's just my exercise, but so there's a number of just, there's a number of trails that I have and that's one of them in my neighborhood. And yeah, that's just one of the trails I do. And it's it's a, it's a fun one, but it gets so steep in that one section that you can't run it. You have to crawl , you have to crawl up for a couple of, you know, in a couple yards,

Phil Hudson:

Right. But that you say that's your exercise, but other people are not running up a hill to the point where they have to crawl through the dirt. Right. So, so I don't, what I'm asking you is like, why do you, for your exercise, instead of getting on a treadmill and running an air, an air conditioned Jim, why do you find value in running, crawling up a hill?

Michael Jamin:

I

Phil Hudson:

Don't, as Michael Jam question. Not, not generally just you as a person. Because again, I thought of you when I read this book, and he's talking about like hunting caribou in the Alaskan Tundra for 40 days. The point where he loses 15 pounds of body fat because he's starving.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Right. When I, at this one hill, when you get to the top, it is like, you're done . I mean, that's a hard run. It's a hard climb. And then I have to continue, I still have to run a couple more miles just to get back to where I started, but why do I do that hill? I, it's a really, it's a very, it's really challenging and but you know, if the thing is I don't quit, I just, if it's too hard, I'll just go a little slower. But I never quit, you know, except for the day when I saw that rattlesnake , the only time I ever quit. So I just go slower. But I feel like as long as I'm doing it, you just can't quit. I think that's like, the secret is life, just don't, as long as you don't quit, you are not a failure. You haven't failed, you just haven't accomplished it yet. The minute you quit, you're a failure. You know,

Phil Hudson:

I think that's kind of, to summarize the, the point here for me is so many of us are worried about failing and so many of us are worried about giving up or, or being disappointing our parents or looking like we couldn't do it. Or, you know, settling for less. You know what,

Michael Jamin:

I did a post just a couple days ago and a friend of mine, I, I, I basically said it was about artists and Oh yeah, but art, you know, Yeah. It a post about someone being, accusing someone of being a failed artist, a failed actor. And my post, this is not such thing as a failed artist. There isn't, unless you quit, then you're a failed artist. But, you know, as long as you're trying and doing it and then, and maybe you change your mind, you say, you know what? I because the art, I mean, I didn't wanna take that back. You're not even a failed artist because you may decide I have other priorities. I wanna buy a house, I wanna make more money. And those, your priorities have changed, but that whole time that you were making art, you're not a failed artist.

That's like saying Van Gogh is a failed artist because he didn't make his, he didn't be become renowned, you know, he didn't achieve any success or fame. He, you know, he died before all that happened. And he's arguably the greatest, you know, painter of all time. So was he a failed artist just because he didn't make the, you know, recognition or fame while he was alive? Of course not. And so when I posted about this, to me, it's obvious. Like to me it's simply obvious. No one's a failed artist. You know, the process of doing the art is the joy. That's what you, that's what you're getting out of it. Whether you get fame or success is a whole different story, but sometimes the two are not related. But you're still an artist. You are still an artist as long as you say you are an artist.

And then, and I posted this and a friend who is, I would you could say he's a struggling writer. He's not a writer yet. I know he's a talented writer, but he hasn't broken through. But I've, I've, I've, I'm familiar with his work and he's talented. And he was like, he, he texted me, he's like, Man, thank you. I needed to hear this today. And I was like, You did. Like, I, I kind of thought, this is all obvious, you know, I, I was surprised that he needed to hear it. I was like, Dude, you just haven't, you know, you haven't reached your goal yet, but you're certainly not a failure, you know? Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Well I think that's a great place. And Michael, I think it kind of highlights what in essence I get from Michael Jamin, right? From everything you put out, all the content who you've been before you started doing the podcast, all the reasons I pushed you to do a lot of this stuff. It's I think you provide a lot of stoic insight, I guess you'd say to the screenwriting,

Michael Jamin:

I don't even know about stoicism, but okay, maybe we should look into it.

Phil Hudson:

It's, it's beautiful stuff. I mean, you talk about

Not running away from the problem earlier. I can't remember exactly what I was, but it reminds me of Ryan Holiday's book. You know, The Obstacle is the way he tells the story about the king who put a boulder in the middle of the road just to see who would move it along. And people would show up and they'd complain and they'd walk away and some people would walk around. And then one day a boy showed up and he's just like, man, like what is this thing doing here? And he went and got a stick and he use it as a lever and he popped the, the boulder out of the way. And there's a small fortune underneath it the king just watched. Cuz you know, it talks, it's a fable that oftentimes the thing we're looking for is right underneath the problem in front of us for whoever's listening to this.

That's your hill. That's the hill to climb. And maybe you can't sprint up the hill right now. Maybe you are crawling up the hill. Maybe you need to slow down, right? Maybe you need to retreat for the day because there's a rattlesnake there that's gonna get you if you don't. But, but it's, it's worth continuing, it's worth pursuing. And it doesn't have to be about the fame and the fortune and success. It's about the joy of the process and the achievement and making that new mountain like Sylvester still on set. So Michael, thank you very much for being that that inspiration for me and the example that I think so many of us are looking for, even though you don't want to be, that I think it speaks

Michael Jamin:

To the you are . I'm glad, I'm glad I can be, helped some of health help in some service in some way, but thank you Phil. Thank you.

Phil Hudson:

A couple things. You have p Orchestra coming to Boston.

Michael Jamin:

Yep. Coming to Boston. And we're doing another show in la so Boston, November 12th and 13th and la will be the month in December afterwards. So for tickets, go to michael jam.com/live and it's a stage reading of my forthcoming collection of paper orchestra. It's about an hour and we have a q and A at the end. And and people really liked it last time, so I'm doing it again.

Phil Hudson:

You, you said you don't know if anyone stopped and thought in their car to think about what you said, but after your last performance series, we received plenty of emails from people raving about Yeah. Made them, It was thought provoking. It did exactly what you're hoping to do.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it did for a couple, at least a couple. So I'm happy about that. I know people, Yeah. They told me afterwards that they, it changed them a little bit bit. So I was like, that's sweet.

Phil Hudson:

You know, So if you were looking to be changed, go to that. Go to paperwork for

Michael Jamin:

Show. Yeah, , Thank

Phil Hudson:

You. Outside of that usual stuff, you got the free less hand michael jam.com/free. You've got the watch list. Michael jam.com/watchlist. Your Course, Michael jam.com/course. And Treasurer trove of beautiful information and social media at Michael Jam and writer, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook. You're kind of everywhere. And

Michael Jamin:

Go get it

Phil Hudson:

Everyone. Lot, lots more beautiful stuff coming out.

Michael Jamin:

All right, everyone, thank you. Until next week, next week for our next podcast. Thank you so much. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminwriter. You could follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilaHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep riding.