What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

It's time for another Q&A with Michael Jamin. In this episode, we answer questions from Michael's social media followers and his online screenwriting course members. Tune in for some great thoughts and insights about Screenwriting.

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Phil Hudson:

You can get very distracted with a lot of different things. And there are a lot of people in LA who wanna be screenwriters. And when they say they wanna be screenwriters, I think that they like to put on and project that they are screenwriters. It's pretty low stakes. What do, what do you have to deliver? No one wants to read your script as it is. And so I'm working on the screenplay, I've been working on that thing, and it just goes on and on, and no one's gonna question it. Oh, he's a writer. You know, writers have their own thing. It's ethereal. There's, you know, I think what you showcase on your social media and definitely in the course is that the, there's a producer. You have to be a producer, or actually you have to be a professional. And the professional works every single day. They show up, they put in the time they put out work, they finish things, they move on. And those are the people who make progress.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey, everybody, welcome back. I'm Michael Jamin, and I'm here with Phil Hudson. He's joining us again. Welcome back, Phil.

Phil Hudson:

I'm back. Thank you for having Me.

Michael Jamin:

He's welcome back. And today we're doing a q and a episode. You guys sent in your questions, so we're gonna try to answer them as best as we can. And that's it, Phil. Exciting stuff. What do you, is , what do you hit? Hit us up, Phil, take us in.

Phil Hudson:

Sounds good. I, I mean, just so everyone knows, these questions are pulled from Instagram. We put up a tile, it's just, just a logo for the podcast, and we invite people to ask questions there. So if you're not following Michael on Instagram at Michael Jam Ryder, you can go there. And every couple weeks we put that tile up so people can leave their questions there that you're not answering elsewhere. And we got some good ones. I think this

Michael Jamin:

Oh, why you mention that before we dump, jump into that, by the way. So, yeah, I'm, I'm doing a show in Boston and November 12th and 13th. So if you're in the Boston era and you wanna hear this, go to michael jam.com/live and you'll get more information on that and I'll, I'll plug it at the ending one one more time, but Okay. Phil, hit us with those

Phil Hudson:

Questions. Sounds good. First question is a question that was asked during our last Q and a, but it was asked on YouTube, so I missed it. This is from Christina m she's in your screenwriting class. Oh, and I'm paraphrasing the question here. She asked it a couple different ways. Effectively, she said, We see heroes of the writing world like Hemingway, who who used alcohol as a writer's fuel, and people like Jordan Peel Oakley discuss using marijuana in the creative process. What role does out alcohol or other substances play in the creative process?

Michael Jamin:

, I, for me, none. I, I mean, it would, anything like that would put me to sleep. I've never been on in a writer's room where people were smoking or drinking. I, I not, you probably get sued for that now, but I don't know. I mean, if people do that on their own time, that's fine with them, but I don't know, to me it would, it wouldn't work. It wouldn't be a good combination.

Phil Hudson:

Got it. Yeah. For me, also, I abstain, so I have no feedback to give on this. I do know people who, who do participate, and it does help them. And, but I think that a lot of that is glorified and romanticized Yeah. As part of what a writer is. And I don't know that it translate directly to being a professional.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I agree with that. Back in the day, I think there was talk, you know, there was a time, I think maybe in the early eighties where drug use was not was, it was almost common, or at least not a lot common, but it, you know, it did happen in writer's rooms, but not anymore.

Phil Hudson:

I have heard of unseen photos of some of the desks on some of the studio lots. And then there's a random little tray you pull out with a mirror on it. Yeah. And it's like, Oh, I wonder what this random tray was, what a mirror

Michael Jamin:

Is for. And I've never witnessed that personally. So what do I know? But I'm not that old. I'm very young. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

That's very young. Super young. All right, Christina, I hope that answered that question. Well for you Dave Crosman frequent flyer on the podcast, Crossman also member the course, he, he posted a question in the Instagram, There are grumblings at a lot of rooms, especially many rooms, can't, on streamers are upper level only, or very close to that, for emerging writers. What can they do to help their chances, chances at staffing, besides having a great script and experience as an assistant? Well,

Michael Jamin:

The, the problem he's talking about mini rooms, which I don't have any firsthand experience with. And that's gonna be probably what the next writer strike is over. And so, mini rooms are basically when the studios they, they don't pick a show up to series. They say, Well, think about it in the meantime, why don't you guys, here's a little bit of money. Why don't you guys write six episodes and here's a couple of bucks to put together some, a staff of writers. And everyone's getting paid a fraction of what they're already, what they should get paid. And then the studio, after reading these six episodes, decides what, what the fate of the show is, even though we're doing all, And I, again, I've never done this before, but know the writers are doing all that work. And honestly, I think it's, I think it's absolutely awful.

And I think writers are desperate and they're hungry for work. And so that they're like, they're really put in a position where, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna say? No. And it's, it's really, it's, it's abusive. If the stu in my opinion, if the studio decides to make a show, they incur the risks. That's the, that's what happens when you're in business. If you open up a taco stand, you incur the risks of going outta business. And you buy all the taco ingredients up front. Crossman's asking, So are these rooms staffed with high level writers or low level writers? I don't even know. I don't know what the, the tendency is. And so he's asking, Well, how can a low level writer, writer get into an abusive relationship with the studio as opposed to just a high level writer?

I don't know.

Hopefully these things end and, you know, hopefully they're resolved. Cause I don't feel like it's, it's, I don't think it's a, I think it's a joke. The fact that they're making writers do this. It's a cost coving cutting scenario. And no writer's happy with it because you're doing all the same amount of work. So he is saying, Well, how can a low level writer break in? I don't really know. I, I, I can tell this though, from from my other experiences on other shows that are not many rooms they tend to be staffing low level. It's the high level writers that are having a hard time getting work because the studio says, Well, we have room for six writers. We, let's hire some cheap ones, you know, know as opposed. And so that seems to be the trend, but, you know, it'll change tomorrow. And, and maybe it's different from show to show. So I really can't speak, I can't speak to this question too. Well,

Phil Hudson:

Well, I, for me, what it sounds like is this highlights the importance of the wga. Yeah. Right. And, and the reason why having that union or that, that that guild represent all of the writers to arbitrate credits and stand up for unified bargaining rights. I mean, all of this stuff is very important. Yeah. And imagine doing this is just literally someone who's not represented by a mass of people. So you have the weight of the top talent in the world stepping out from the production machine. And we can see that that costs millions and millions of dollars to these companies. And that's why people strike. So to your point, I mean, I've heard of this on major studio films. I've heard it kind of down the level over the couple years. So it'd be interesting to see what happens over the next year or two. Yeah. This topic, I mean, yeah. Hopefully, I'm hearing there might be a strike next next year.

Michael Jamin:

It could happen. It could happen. You gotta threaten strike. You have to threaten strike. If you don't, there's no threat of strike. You have no negotiating power. So at the very least, so.

Phil Hudson:

Right, right. Well, awesome. Okay. And here's another question. I'm sure you've, you've answered many times on the podcast and in your q and as, but I think it's important to talk about again Yeah. Not spelt Dylan on Instagram. What contests do you recommend?

Michael Jamin:

From what I understand, I've never entered a contest, but I understand that there are a couple of big ones that the nickels competition is worth it. Maybe the Sundance, maybe the, maybe the blacklist competition. Right? They have one

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Austin.

Michael Jamin:

Austin. So they're a handful of big ones. But if this, if you, I suspect the smaller ones that you've never heard of. Some people are trying to get me to do a contest. I'm like, I, I'm telling you, I just told you, you know, you don't want the small ones, , you don't want me doing a contest. That's, that would be just a money making thing for me, and it wouldn't help you. Yeah. We,

Phil Hudson:

And we dove into this in one of our earlier podcasts, like maybe episode of five, I wanna say. But in that episode, we talked about my experience on the indie side of this. I did a lot of indie film festivals and volunteered at things like Sundance. A lot of those contests are being read by the Phil Hudson's in film school making decisions and determinations about screenplays. Yeah. And at the time, I felt like I had a good opinion about what a good script was, but you know, flash forward seven years, I had no clue. Yeah. I had no clue what a good script was. And I'm sure I'm gonna think the same thing about myself seven years from now. Right. So those are the people making those decisions about the fate of your script. And so, I don't know that I'd take a lot of cloud or respect from, from the opinions of those smaller film

Michael Jamin:

Festivals. Someone asked me a question about coverage saying the same thing. Which coverage you guys coverage from three different is, I dunno, is that one of the questions you're gonna talk about? Also?

Phil Hudson:

It's one of the que it's again, something we've talked about before, but again, it came up and I think it's because your audience has grown pretty dramatically. So a lot of people have missed out on some of this early conversation we had almost a year ago. Yeah. and so, yeah, it's another one. Is it it worth getting script coverage?

Michael Jamin:

So this one guy I saw in particular, he's like, I got coverage from three different, I got, you know, and they're all, you know, contradictory. What do I do? Like, well, what did you expect? You're, who's giving you coverage? They don't know anything. They're not getting paid. Well, these are people who are not industry insiders. If they were, they wouldn't be reading script coverage. That's not, you know, so if you can find someone, this is what you get, what you pay for. If you can find someone who has maybe retired, who has a long credit history and now longer is working as a writer, if you can get them to read and, and give you coverage or, you know, script analysis, that would be worth it. But you have to do your due diligence and find out what their credits are and read some of their work. Read their work. If you don't like their work, why, why would you respect their opinion? And so, this is not the case with this guy. I'm sure he just I, I, here's a company. They said, here's some coverage. It's like, Okay, well they just took your money. So, but if you're gonna get coverage from somebody who knows who they're doing, it's gonna cost you. I mean, that's just how it is cuz you're paying for their expertise. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

But I would interject and say that a lot of these other coverage services do cost people, and I don't think it's an exchange of value that merits the, the ticket price. Yeah. you know, when I was first diving into this stuff, 2008, 2009, that was a common thing in the threads to do is go get script coverage or have a script doctor read and give you notes. And you pay $500 to some of these people to do that. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And $500,

Phil Hudson:

What's the value? Wow. Yeah. What's the value there, man? Yeah. There you go. Michael. There's your next business venture. Just go read a bunch of scripts and pay people

Michael Jamin:

For Yeah. But I would, I would charge, you know, I'd trust more than $500. Cause you gotta think about it. It's gonna take you it's gonna take you a couple hours to read it and then type up notes and then you know, a conversation. And you're not paying for, Well, I'm not, I'm not in the business. But you know, of, of doing coverage, but you're paying for their years of doing this. You're not paying for, they're paying for their expertise. You're not paying for the, the, the two hours that they took to read it. Sure. But okay,

Phil Hudson:

Sure. So last October or November when we were recorded that podcast episode where we talked about this I had some friends from film school that were working at a pretty high level, well known script coverage service. Mm-Hmm. that is now defunct. They are outta business. Oh, yeah. And those two friends do not work in Hollywood. They've never pa a day on a Hollywood set. They went to film school. They have the same degree I did. I've offered to get them jobs in the industry. They, they don't want to take them. They are doing that job. And honestly, they'd probably get paid more as a PA than they would doing that job. But I think it feels more like I'm a writer and instead of feeling like I'm a coffee fetcher Oh. But those guys are talking about starting their own thing now. And, and, you know, kudos to them for being entrepreneurs. But I just wonder how much value you can actually get from a service like that when that person's never set a down set. Yeah. Like a real set. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I, I don't, you know, be, do you have to do your due diligence as anything?

Phil Hudson:

Yep. Okay. All right. Now we'll give credit to that person when I find his question or their question down here. All right. At Dean Molina 37 15, what is a common way screenwriters get fired?

Michael Jamin:

Oh well, TV write, I, well, let's talk about TV writers. I would for, if you, if you're at a movie and you sell it, and a director is gonna size to make it, you've already been fired because they're gonna hire another writer to do the rewrite, or maybe the director will do it. You're, the minute you get your paycheck, you've been fired. I mean, it's unusual for the, for the original writer to work all the way through a project. Usually hire like tons of writers. But in tv the way you get fired is a, you could have a bad attitude, but also your, your scripts could not come in. Well, you know, in, in professional shape. You could be argumentative Often it's just like those people disappear. You really, you know, you don't have a lot of time to hide out.

I was actually thinking about this earlier today. It's like, if real, the, the industry has changed. This is not an answer to the question, but I think it's kind of interesting. The interesting has changed so much as a, so when I came up, you had a sitcom. You work on the sitcom for 22 episodes, and you go back year after year, and you really learned a lot. And you grow and you grew and, and you came from a school, in other words, like, you know, I came from Just Shoot Me. That was the first school. But that which, which grew outta the Frazier School, which got outta the cheer school. So there was kind of like a, like a whole history of people. A lineage. A lineage, like a pedigree. Right. And so, Yeah. Yeah. You don't have that now because those shows just don't exist.

And so you might do a show for eight episodes, then you're outta work and you get on another show. And I think it's gonna wind up catching up to the industry in terms of quality, because there's so much that you have to learn on the job that you just don't know until just, it's just, you know, it comes from years of experience. We'll, we'll see. I, I don't know. But I suspect that's gonna, that's my feeling. It's gonna, it's gonna hurt the quality of at least comedies. So, but that's not the question. How do you get fired? Get a bad attitude. Don't know how to write one or two. One of those two

Phil Hudson:

Things. And things you've, you've discussed earlier in the, in other episodes and other things where you've put on social media that the way you get fired, the way you know you've been fired, is you don't get invited back Yeah. To another season.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You have a contract. Right. Exactly. You don't really get fired. They say they're not picking up your option. That's what you hear. So, Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. There you go. All right. Hail at ha i b, If a show is in the middle of a story arc that has been horribly received, how do you Correct. Course

Michael Jamin:

You wouldn't know because it takes months to produce these things and then they usually air a months later. And so by the time the show airs it's us, it's usually not in production anymore. Again, that would be not the case if you're talking about a sitcom that was 22 episodes. Cuz then you've aired and run at the same time. But now it's eight or 10 episodes. Usually it's way too late. It's way too late. It's already in the can. I

Phil Hudson:

Think in the multicam you do have the feedback from rehearsals and things like that, Right?

Michael Jamin:

Well, you have feed, you always have rehearsals, whether it's single or multicam,

Phil Hudson:

But it's not, I guess it's not the story arc that you're going through in

Michael Jamin:

A, it's not, and you're not, like, it's not the Audi, you're not expecting to get audience feedback If, you know, if these two characters, you know, the audience doesn't like this storyline, That's, that's a little different than, you know, whether, whether the story or not works at the table read or at rehearsal. You'll know, you'll know if it works.

Phil Hudson:

Right. Right. Okay. Awesome. At Nicholas Alt is is going to an expensive film school like UCLA or usc. Worth it, by the way, I love your content. I've been told by my dad, if I don't go into engineering or science, I will not be able to make a living. So I've not had much guidance on how to pursue filmmaking. Your channel's so direct and gives golden advice. So thank you. I appreciate you. Happy emoji.

Michael Jamin:

Well, son, you're, you're not a new son now. Go to film. Well, here's the thing. Is it worth it? The education, the degree itself is probably not worth it, but the education and the context might be worth it. And that just depends. Education depends on who's teaching your classes. And, and the context of course, your peers in your, in your graduating class. And do you get along with them and do you stay in touch with them? But you know, you can learn so much. Like if you wanna go to film school, it's like a trade school. So you'll learn how, you'll learn lighting and editing and you'll learn what softwares do. But if you wanna be a screenwriter, you don't need to know what the light, how to light. You don't need to learn, you know, all that stuff. It's, do you wanna learn it? You know? But if you wanna learn screenwriting, no you do not. I didn't go to film school. You just need to learn the craft of screenwriting. You have to learn some way or another. But you don't have to go to film school for that. You could learn, you know, you take a course.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I'd agree with that sentiment. I think was it beneficial for me to go to film school and study screenwriting? Sure. In the sense that it forced me to hit meet deadlines. So I wrote a lot more than I would've on my own. Mm-Hmm. . So it helped instill some of those habits that I needed. In terms of contacts, I don't know that I got a lot of great contacts out of that. Or networking schools like USC and ucla, I think. So I think that there are some great networking opportunities there. But going back to advice you gave me when I was asking you, should I go to film school, move to la you're, what you said was, well, if you get a master's degree, at least you can teach college at some point.

Michael Jamin:

That's right. And so that, that's

Phil Hudson:

Also, if it doesn't work out for

Michael Jamin:

You and that, but that's also part of the problem. So you may go to a college where someone has a master's degree teaching you, but they don't know cuz they haven't done it. So you really gotta find out who's teaching your classes. And you can, you can find that out online. You can find out, you know, I'm sure they te they tell

Phil Hudson:

You. Right? Yeah. I, I think definitely. Look it up. I had multiple screenwriting teachers. One of them was a old retired curmudgeonly guy who wrote a bunch of films in the eighties that were very, very popular. And I, I got the most out of that class. Interestingly enough, a lot of the younger people did not like his class because he was pretty curmudgeonly about the feedback he gave. Yeah. If he didn't like it, he told you. And a lot of the other teachers would kind of stoke the ego a little. Mm-Hmm. , you can do it, don't worry about it. This is like no real feedback given. Yeah, no, no. Direct this. So if you're willing to submit yourself to some real scrutiny, find a pro and let them rip it apart. Yeah. Yeah. That's how you learn the most. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil Hudson:

So, All right. Now Nicholas has another question as follow up. If you wanna become a director, is becoming a screenwriter first in insisting you direct your scripts a good idea?

Michael Jamin:

No. If you're gonna insist good luck with that. Who are you gonna insist at? The studio doesn't work that way. They're not gonna trust a 30 even that we low budget a 30 million movie to. So you've never done it before. You can good luck with insisting and you could Sure. They're gonna just say, we're gonna walk. But you can certainly write and direct your own projects. No one's gonna stop you from doing that and do it for free or next to nothing and hire friends and get people to help that for sure. Right. And direct your own stuff. I encourage you but you don't, you're not in a position to insist anything. You don't have the leverage. Mm-Hmm. , you know, unless you put your thing on the, you know, unless you become a hit on your own, then you'll have leverage. For right now, it sounds like insist Good luck. Good luck, kid. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Now, Nicholas, I, I'd say that if you are considering going to UCLA or USC to go to school and you want to direct, that's probably a good thing to do because you're gonna learn the technical aspects of studying film, watching lots of film, looking at things like juxtaposition. Meen, the way sound design affects things. You're going to learn how to use cameras, you're gonna learn how to do the lighting. Those are all valuable skills, but you don't even need to do that. I mean, you could take a look at Robert Rodriguez. He wrote a great book called Rebel Without a Crew, and he tells you how he made you know, El Mariachi, which blew up at Sundance and got his, launched his whole career Right. In being a the filmmaker that he is today. And that book was, was inspiration for people like John Fog with Swingers when they talked about how they just looked at that book as a model to do their

Michael Jamin:

Ind film. And he didn't go to film school, Is that what you're saying?

Phil Hudson:

He didn't go to film school. Yeah. Yeah. Now and, and Robert Rodriguez dropped out of film school. Right. Because he wanted to make his own film. Yeah. You know, so like, there, there's a path for everything and it's really just how risk-averse you are. Mm-Hmm. , you get a lot of scrutiny from your family. It might be really hard to not go to school and not get a degree.

Michael Jamin:

But also, this speaks to what I was saying earlier, which maybe not earlier today, but this guy's saying is Nicholas saying, you know, can I, can I write and direct? Can I in insist? But you're still asking for permission. You're saying, Can I write and direct? You're asking for don't ask for permission, do it. It's your money, it's your camera, it's your script. You do it. Write it.

Phil Hudson:

Right. Right. There you go, Nicholas. Yeah. All right. At L Barker film, why do the amounts of residual checks vary so much?

Michael Jamin:

It, Well,

Phil Hudson:

This comes from your social media. Yeah. Where you open your residual checks, those fd green

Michael Jamin:

Envelopes. Yeah. well, first of all, I don't even care. Like they sell one I'm at episodes. Like I, it's an accounting question. Nothing could interest me less than accounting. So what happens is they sell, I read an episode and they sell it overseas. Sometimes it's overseas, sometimes they sell it to this channel sometimes. And sometimes this episode will air more times than that episode. And whether or not the studio wants to package it together or put it all lump it together, sometimes I read it, sometimes they lump it together, and sometimes it's separate. I don't even care. Like I, you know, I don't, I'm not curious enough to get it an, you know, a lecture on how they count their, you know, as long as they get the money, you wanna send it in one check or 10, I don't really care, you know?

Phil Hudson:

Got it.

Michael Jamin:

That sounds obnoxious. But I just, I'm interested enough, I'm a writer. I didn't get into this to find out, you know, to be an accountant to do math. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Well, I think I think you did answer the question, right. The answer is it's based off of what they've sold and what they've produced, and then how many how many bills they've charged back to the production demand from

Michael Jamin:

Getting your Yeah. Get

Phil Hudson:

What you got. Yeah. Awesome. Lady K Productions 2021. What does an executive producer do?

Michael Jamin:

Depends. It just depends on, there's so many titles and so many, often there are many executive producers. So like on a, on a TV show, the showrunner is almost always an executive producer, and they are the head writer. They are in charge of making all the creative decisions. But there are also non-writing executive producers. There can be managers who've negotiated, represent talent that negotiated the title. They can just be people who have a production company who help facilitate the, the direction maybe they bought the IP that it's all based on. Maybe sometimes these people don't even show up to work, which is fine. They might have a parking space outside the lot. You never ever see them. Sometimes a, a co-executive producer, which is a writer, will get promoted after several seasons, and they might become a co an executive producer. Although they don't have any of the responsibilities or even the, the money that the other executive producers have, it's just a titled bump. It just, it's like, it's, it just depends. So there's no really, there's no easy answer for that, but, you know, you know, Yeah. Doesn't really matter. Gotcha.

Phil Hudson:

But the, when we think about , when we think about executive producer, traditionally we are thinking about the showrunner, the head writer, the one who,

Michael Jamin:

Well, sometimes people think

Phil Hudson:

Probably sold a show.

Michael Jamin:

Sometimes people think executive producers are in charge of wrangling getting all the money. And maybe in film that might be the case. But in, in, in, in tv, they may facilitate some of that. It just depends on how much cl you have. I mean, you could be, you know, the hairdresser to the star and the star says you're an executive producer, you know? Okay. You know, it's just, it's like that.

Phil Hudson:

I heard some grumblings from people through the grapevine that well, if Phil Hudson's an associate producer, what do I have to do to be an associate producer on Tacoma d

Michael Jamin:

I was like, Oh, really? But

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You gotta hustle. You gotta hustle and do, put your time in.

Phil Hudson:

Understand what plumbers to call and how to negotiate a cleaning contract. That's what you gotta do. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Well make yourself invaluable and then, and work for a couple of years and you get bumped.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jam.com/list.

Phil Hudson:

All like the cho bongo's a pretty great name. I'm seeing a lot of programs now that try and tell two stories at a time, story A, which takes place in the present story b that is usually told in the form of a flashback. Mm-Hmm. , what's your take on this style of Tori storytelling? Is it gimmicky or legit? I personally find this annoying.

Michael Jamin:

You do, or they do. They do. They do. You know, I don't know if it's even a gimmick. Usually they, those flashbacks are meant to inform the present day. So they'll, like, you know, a character will get a, be at a crossroads and, and hesitate why they hesitating flashback to 10 years earlier. They got whatever happened in the past. And so that past informs the present, like in loss. That's how they did it. But I, I maybe, I don't know if there are other examples that this the person hasn't mentioned. So I, I don't know. But I don't think it's gimmicky.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I think, you know, when we kind of bo what it boils down to, I think there's a lot of people as strong opinions about what writing devices or, or story devices you should be using. I remember people knocking down voiceover and knocking over, knocking down a bunch of other things, but they serve wonderful purpose. Look at American Beauty, which won an Oscar. Mm-Hmm. , it starts with voiceover. Yeah. Right. And it tells you how it's gonna end in the first five seconds of the entire thing. So I just think at the end of the day, you have your own style, and if that annoys you don't write that way. And if it you feel like it's gimmicky write something better. Right. Use some other literary device to improve the quality of your writing. Mm-Hmm. to show that you don't need that type of flashback to tell that same story. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Flashbacks are convenient. I mean, they're, they, they're, they could be very helpful, but if you don't want to do it, don't use it. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

I think it would be really funny too. I mean, take a look at New Girl in Fox. Right. That show they use flashbacks for some of the funniest moments to inform things. You know, like Schmidt in the douche Baja, they were pulling out like all the douchey things Schmidt had done Right. And had to put money in this jar. And those are some of the funniest things I've ever I've ever heard or seen on tv. They wrote a whole book

Michael Jamin:

About it. It's an opportunity for a good laugh. Right, right.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Trans media, they, they, I mean, they literally wrote a book about it, which you should look up the, I think it's called the Douche Journals. It's pretty funny. Okay. All right. Carter Callahan, more recently, I've been seeing a lot of movies that, that lean more into symbolism and try to provoke the audience and defining an underlying meaning. What are your thoughts on symbolism when writing, and do you think we as screenwriter, should be looking for moments to showcase that in our scripts?

Michael Jamin:

I don't know if I have an opinion on that. That sounds complicated. Yeah. , I

Phil Hudson:

Don't know. So I, I read this and I was like, Shouldn't we always be using symbolism in our scripts to speak to things? I mean and this, this speaks to the reverse engineering of scripts that you've talked about. Right. I think episode one we talked about in my screenwriting classes in college, they would have us take a stopwatch and time scenes of an episode. We were gonna write a pilot of, and kind of reverse engineer what the story was. Like, how many scenes you should have before an act. Right. All those different things. And you're like, I don't see how that's valuable at all. That's like, you know, you're reverse engineering a script and said you could just learn story structure. You know how

Michael Jamin:

To do that. Yeah. I don't think that would

Phil Hudson:

Helpful. That's what this speaks this to me is similar to that, where the symbolism to me might be a, a technique that you can use to elicit emotion without having to hang a hat on it. I mean, the look at the first season of Mayans, did you ever watch that? No. Yeah. It was Mayans, which is a spinoff of Sons of Anarchy, that you literally have an animal at the front of ev at the beginning of every episode, and it represents some core object or thing that's gonna happen in that episode. Mm-Hmm. . Right? So it's a coyote, little coyotes, the trickster, like, Oh, there's an owl. There's wisdom. You know, it plays off of those different things.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you, you can use symbolism to elevate, but that would be the last thing that would put in the script. Story. Certainly the most important thing to do. Yeah. do you have to do it? I I, it sounds more of a drama thing than comedy, but Yeah, go for for it.

Phil Hudson:

I agree with him, But I, I think your point is like, you have to understand what the story is, what the theme is. All of these, you know, what the emotional tone of the show is, and then that will invoke the symbolism you should use to make your user or your end user feel that. And so much of that is me, Onsen, right? That's, that's set design and set.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, Yeah, exactly Right.

Phil Hudson:

Our department stuff they're doing mm-hmm.

Michael Jamin:

, right. So right dead flowers on a scene instead of live flowers. Okay. The relationship's dying. Okay. There's your symbolism. You know,

Phil Hudson:

The example you've used before me and, and having Marin blurry in the background images Yeah. And slowly come into focus is the season progresses.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right.

Phil Hudson:

So that's, that's a beautiful nuance of film that makes me want to cry. It's so beautiful when you really get down to the detail of it. But that's not something you necessarily need to stress about as a writer, cuz you're not planning, You don't need to describe every single thing in the room. You need just highlight the things that are most important to the scene. Right.

Michael Jamin:

I think if you, once you become a filmmaker, you can concentrate more on that. But right now, if you're, you're just writing scripts you know, the first thing you gotta learn is story structure.

Phil Hudson:

There you go. Awesome. Gladin underscore sane. Pretty long comment here, but I think it's a, a really interesting question. Hey, I'm a writer who initially started screenwriting after a life experiences of mine were covered by vice. And several producers approached me attempting to secure my life rights. Okay. One producer gave me the motivation to actually write the story myself, which set me on the path to becoming a writer. And I've since written several other pieces. My issue currently is that this producer has some pretty troubling personal issues. And I don't think he's viewed too highly in the industry. He advised on a few things and gave critical feedback, which is valuable. But I feel like at this point he's more or less holding the, these projects back. Is there a process for detaching an executive from a project as an unknown writer? How do I go about finding new representation? Is it easier to detach from this person if I find someone more stable to work with? Thanks so much. Well,

Michael Jamin:

First of all, let's be clear, he's not, this producer is not your representation. That's not, the producer's not a manager or writer. They're a business partner. So get that, you know, let's be clear in the terms. They're not your representation. Also this, you know, I've never had a deal with this, but the story, you know, it sounds like the story's yours. It came from your life. It's your story. If you have a problem with the producer and they're not feel like they're not pulling their, their weight, or maybe they have lost lost interest, have a conversation saying, you're taking your project elsewhere. Just be aware that you better have an elsewhere. You know what I'm saying? Like, cuz you know, they'll say, they'll say, they'll say one or two things. No, please gimme 10 more minutes or bye. And so, but I would leave, It sounds like, it sounds like it's not working right now. What you don't have, you don't owe this person anything. It's your story. Just say, thank you, but I'm not working out. I'm gonna try to make it another way. And you don't owe them anything. It's your story that they wanted to shepherd your project and push it forward. And they're no longer doing that. They don't, I don't, They don't even care if they're not, If they're not working for you, then they don't care. So leave.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I, I think that you might awaken something or it spurs this person into action to try to hustle, to prove to you that they want to be involved in this project. Mm-Hmm. . And I think one of two things will happen with that. You can walk away and pursue other options while this person goes out and tries to do that. And if something comes of it, great, great. Or they've really been so tainted in the industry at this point because of what they've done in their personal life that nothing's gonna happen and nothing has changed for you. And so you can just continue to pursue other opportunities to expand your career and get these projects produced. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Just say bye

Phil Hudson:

To be clear. That's, that's a very normal, like you said, that's a business relationship and that happens all the time. Yeah. There are business partnerships that don't work out, and then you have to have those hard conversations and you have to break up. It's like a marriage. You're breaking it up and you're Yeah, you're

Michael Jamin:

Splitting off. But if he's not working for you, you have nothing to lose. I mean, he sounds like he's not doing anything, so leave, you

Phil Hudson:

Know. Yep. There you go. All right. Comrade big body.

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Phil Hudson:

It's a Russian big dude. That's what I get. Can you try to break into screenwriting if you already have a nine to five? Or do you have to bite the bullet and try to find a low paying pa job?

Michael Jamin:

You can do whatever you want. I don't, there's no one way to get into screenwriting, but the problem is, if you make it a hobby, if you make it a, if you make it it a side hustle, or sometimes like, can I just do this on the side? I'm a dentist. You could do whatever you want. I don't think it's reasonable. I don't, I think if you're treating like most people who wanna become screeners, they're passionate about it or they're, they're serious about it and they're gonna, they're gonna do whatever it takes to become a writer. They're gonna do do whatever it takes. But if you're not willing to do whatever it takes because you're like, eh, I also, I don't wanna lose my job. I like, I'm a realtor. I like doing that. It's like, okay, you're, you're, you're handcuffing yourself. Maybe it'll happen, but it seems much more difficult to me.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, you can get very distracted with a lot of different things. And there are a lot of people in LA who wanna be screenwriters and when they say they wanna be screenwriters, I think that they like to put on and project that they are screenwriters cuz it's pretty low stakes. Yeah. What do, what do you have to deliver? No one wants to read your script as it is. And so all I'm working on this screenplay, I've been working on that thing, and it just goes on and on and no one's gonna question it. Oh, he is a writer. You know, writers have their own thing. It's ethereal. There's, you know, I think what you showcase on your social media and definitely in the course is that there's a producer. You have to be a producer, or actually you have to be a professional.

And the professional works every single day. They show up, they put in the time they put out work, they finish things, they move on. Yeah. And those are the people who make progress. I brought a lot of scripts this year from a lot of people who wanna be screenwriters and they're putting in work, brought a lot of scripts from people this year who are dabbling. They got feet in the, they've got their toe in the water. They're not diving in completely. And it shows because a year later they haven't written anything else. They're still working on that other thing. Yeah. You know, so just, you know, you can make it happen. You can, you can put in the time, but you gotta treat it like a job. Yeah. What do you think it takes to be a professional screenwriter, Michael? Three, five hours a day.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. I mean, you, you gotta dedicate, you get to really put your work into it. So

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. So you got nine to five, Wake up at six right. For three hours. Yeah. Right. Wake up at five Right. For three hours. Yeah. Get to work,

Michael Jamin:

Come back and you'll get better. You will improve the more you write, you know? Yep. For sure.

Phil Hudson:

I heard that number. 200,000 words. Is that number you've ever heard?

Michael Jamin:

I never heard of that.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. It comes from what was it? Teleios website word player.com. They talk about that in one of their articles from the AOL forums. And they said that you have 200,000 bad words in you. You just have to get 'em out. Yeah. So if you can sit down and just pump out 200,000 words, you'll eventually become a good writer.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Anyway, There you go. All right. At double r, underscore R 7 73. Oh, he's, the guy is paying a script where she's the, the woman, whatever it is, is paying a script consultant worth the money. We already answered

Michael Jamin:

That one. Yeah. It depends. Find out who they are, what they've done, read some of their work, and it might be worth every penny. But it only depends on who that person is. So I wouldn't use a service. I would find out the person.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

There you go. Awesome. At Soldier Iui, E N N U I, What advice would you give to a beginner who's never written a script before?

Michael Jamin:

I, I would give you all of my advice. . I'd say get on the watch list, start watching everything and it's free your watch, listen to this podcast. It's free. You know, the YouTube channel, it's all free and all this help is free. Then at some point you're, at some point you are going to have to learn story structure. You're going to have to take a class. You could take mine, you could take someone else's, find out who you're teaching it from, who who's teaching you. And if you like them and you think they know what they're talking about, study from them. Because it's not something, it's just not inherent. It's, it's, it's not something that you can, that most people, I know very few people who have just done it on their own. It's, it's a craft, you know? So it's like saying someone who's a pilot, you know, a pilot, would you get into a plane with a pilot who's never, who's not licensed, who's never studied, who's got, you know, would you I wouldn't, I'd try to find someone who's done it before

Phil Hudson:

. Yeah. Yeah. I think

I think I, I think of it as an apprenticeship. Mm-Hmm. almost. Right. There's a, this is a trade. It's a craft. And you can sit out back with a block of wood and a chisel and you can just go through resources and try to figure it out. Or you can sit down at the feet of a master who does it and has been doing it for 20, 30 years and watch the way they place the chisel and you can observe them and then they will give you a block of wood when you're ready. And then they will hold, you know, give you feedback on how you're holding that chisel and explain why this chisel versus that chisel will get this effect. And it's just a whole nuance level of nuance to it that you don't get unless you are again sitting at the feet of a master.

Yeah. And I don't think you would call yourself a master. I would I think many of us would. Mm-Hmm. . Right. I mean, you've had a long career doing this for a long time on a bunch of shows everyone can watch right now. So I think it reflects the level of understanding that you have. But like you said, there's plenty of other people with courses. It's just about personal preference and you eventually just have to bite the bull and do it. Yeah. I personally have done it a lot. I know Dave Crossman we talked about earlier, asked a question, He's done it a lot. We've had lots of conversations about the value of a lot of the different courses that exist out there. Mm-Hmm. . And he and I would both agree and tell you that the best course to take is yours. And that's just that you're not paying me to say that. That's a sincere, the value of that course is indescribable. You know, I think everyone can benefit from diving

Michael Jamin:

Into that. I appreciate that. You know, as you could tell, I'm, even when I'm doing my videos on inst you know, Instagram TikTok, I'm like, how I want to give you as much as I possibly can to, you know, I'm always thinking about, well, how can I give you a little bit more, you know?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. let's see. At j Chan 1215, do you think that's Jackie

Michael Jamin:

Chan? I definitely think it's Jackie Chan.

Phil Hudson:

It is probably Jackie. All right. Are there any pitfalls or disadvantages of writing a bio biographical film for a person still alive?

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know the legality of that. I don't know. I don't know if they're in the public domain. Maybe you can, I, I don't know. Friday can't answer that.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I don't know that they would be in the public domain if they're still alive just by default. But there is a, a really interesting book I would recommend called Freedom for the Thought that you Hate. Mm-Hmm. , it's all about the First Amendment and it talks about celebrity and what is celebrity in the famous case that basically allows you to write about people in who are considered celebrities because they're giving up their rights because they exist in the public real. Right. And again, I'm not an attorney. You're not an attorney. This is not legal vice. Definitely contact an entertainment lawyer about it, but if that person is truly a a celebrity, you're probably okay to write something. Mm-Hmm. doesn't mean it's gonna be made. There's a high chance that those people are going to try to put some type of block on you doing that. Mm-Hmm. they probably have more money and more power than you do to stop that from coming out. And you have to find something that's interesting enough for a production company or a studio to wanna make mm-hmm. . And the odds are they would probably just go to that person if they wanted to have that thing made.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, the bottom line is your script is a writing sample. So if you, if you think of it as a writing sample, fine, then do it. Just don't expect to sell it. Yeah. But if you know, or you can come up with an original writing sample and write about that, it's, it's really about the quality of your, you have to look at it that way, you know?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I think that's one huge nuance that you've brought to the screenwriting world. Mm-Hmm. at least on the internet, is that writing is not to be sold. Writing is a sample. Yeah. Is it, could it be sold? Sure, it might be sold, but you're encouraging us all the right things at a level that could be sold, but understand that this is just proof that you can do the job so that you can have a career as a writer. Yeah. And that's what we all want. Yeah. You know, we've all may have ambitious goals of being showrunners or being mega producers, but at the end of the day, you gotta know how to write and you should prove that,

Michael Jamin:

You know, I was just, cuz I post so much, I get targeted now by other, you know, screenwriters. And so someone I get, somehow I get targeted by a clip from Aaron Sorkin talking about finding the story and, and it's just so funny to hear him talk because it's like, I've never worked with him. I don't, I've never studied for him, you know, but he we're saying the same thing and it's not because I'm no Aaron Sorkin, but it's because any working writer would kind of tell you the same thing. It's like, you know, it, this is just what it takes to be a writer. This is how writing is done. So,

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like you said, man, it's a craft. Yeah. Ultimately you end up at the same place. All right, a couple more questions here. The end to the beginning, is screenwriting something you can graduate from or will there always be something new to learn in this field?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you always get better. I mean, it's not yeah. I mean, you always can improve, but yeah. I don't know if you, but even if you graduate from it, even if you graduate from film school with your degree, it doesn't mean you're good. You know what I'm saying? Right.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I I think what the question is is do you ever hit a threshold where you are a grand master and know everything? No, and you know, I, I tie it back to like anything, but for me it's like Brazilian juujitsu is a really strong example of this. It's a martial art, just like any other martial art. And there are a series of belts you go through. You're a white belt, which means you know nothing. And then you get a stripe that means you know a little bit, and then you get a second stripe and she knows you a little bit more. Third stripe, a little bit more fourth stripe, you're okay. And then you get a blue belt, and then you spend like two years as a blue belt, and then you spend five years as a purple belt and you spend two years as a brown belt, and then you become a black belt and you're not done.

And you think black belt's enough, but then you start getting stripes on your black belt. Yeah. And it might take 20, 30 years until 50 years into your career, into your journey of being a jiu-jitsu player. You get the, a master level red belt and there's like 15 people in the world who have that. Oh, wow. And those guys are still learning. They're either 70 something years old and they're still learning Yeah. How to do it. They're getting better at it because it's just, there's nuance. It changes, it shifts, you know, there's, there's just, you bring something new, someone else teaches you something new and it's just a, a, a living entity and I mean, look how writing's progressed in the last 200 years. Yeah. Right. It's just, it's just a different, different format, different medium and it's gonna continue to do that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Right. All right. And last question here at Kev underscore, Matthew underscore McEnery. What makes a script or someone's writing good in your opinion? As in what do you like and or look for?

Michael Jamin:

Right. That's kind of easy. If you read someone's script and you want to turn the page to find out what happens next. It's a good script. That's, it doesn't matter. It's a thriller or drama comedy. If you want to turn the page to find, it's a good script. And if you don't and most don't, it's not.

Phil Hudson:

There you go.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

That's it. Do you want to turn the page?

Michael Jamin:

Do you wanna turn the page? No, there are also things I look for when I'm writing. Look, I like to see whether the act break pops. I like to see whether the dialogue is crisp and fresh and you know, the joke's original, but all that will determine whether I want to turn the page as

Phil Hudson:

Well. Right. There you go. Pretty straightforward. Yeah. If you get just echos and reiterates what you've been saying for almost a year, Michael. Yeah. Wild.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. We've been doing almost a year. Amazing. Speaking of a year, Phil, I'm gonna be in Boston, , What is that? What a clunky segue. I'm gonna be in Boston performing Paul

Phil Hudson:

Revere. It's Paul Revere, right? Yeah. That's the Diane.

Michael Jamin:

I'll be in Boston performing my one man show of paper orchestra at the Ames in Amesbury, Massachusetts, not Boston, but Amesbury, which is just north of the city. And for, I mean, November 12th and 13th for tickets. You can go to michael jam.com/live. It's a small, intimate venue, so don't wait until last minute. The same thing when I did the show in la. People were like, Oh, he's already sold out. I'm like, Yeah, it's sold out. You gotta get there. It's gonna sell out. So you have to get there, get 'em as soon as you can. If you wanna come see me, I'd love to see you. It's an hour long show followed by a q and a. We get to talk about the work. And if you're in the Boston area, come see me.

Phil Hudson:

That's great. Outside of that, just the normal places, you know, they can find you on social media at Michael Jam and Ryder. You've got a bunch of freebies, giveaway, you talked about the watch list at Michael jamin.com/watchlist. Mm-Hmm. , you've got the free lesson for anyone who's, you know for, who was this? Whoever was asking about the new film Soldier and Newey, you can go [email protected] slash free. Anyone else can go there too. And you teach three really important principles of storytelling in that free course. Yeah, free lesson, which I highly, highly recommend. If you haven't heard me say that on the podcast yet, go there. And then obviously you have the [email protected] slash course. Yeah. Which again, cannot, cannot oversell that to you.

Michael Jamin:

I might take it. All right, everyone.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Freshen up, Michael.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Fresh enough. Thank you so much for listening. And until next week when we drop a new episode,

Phil Hudson:

Keep writing.

Michael Jamin:

Keep writing.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhillaHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Dawn DeKeyser on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0215245/

Dawn's Website - https://www.dawndekeyser.com

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Michael Jamin:

I've made a number of posts about this that yeah, put yourself in a box. People are like, But I don't wanna be in a box. Put yourself in a box and you'll worry about getting outta the box later. But right now, you need to sell yourself as who? This is what you are. What do I do? That's right. That's

Dawn DeKeyser:

Right. And, and so many new writers are still struggling with that. And I said, People cannot help you if they don't know where to put you.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, this is Michael Jamin and you're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. Mike cohost Phil Hudson. He's got the day off again. He's doing some more work behind the scenes, but I'm here interviewing the amazingly talented Dawn de Kaiser. And, uh, Dawn, let me tell, tell everybody who you are. Let me also you, I need to remind you who you are.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Okay? Please do

Michael Jamin:

So. You got a long history of writing some pretty great shows. So first you started, I guess, on All American Girl. That was the Margaret Cho show you did Ink Ted Danson. Remember that one? I remember that one. News Radio you wrote a news radio you wrote on All right, already, which I did not know. I guess you wrote with Steven Engel on that one. I didn't know that. Conrad Bloom, you know, I went to, uh, I went to uh, college with him. We were friends in college, Mark Fostein. Um, but I haven't talked to him since. And then the Gina Davis show starring who, who started that? Uh, the Becker Becker again. Ted Danson. Let's listen to these credits you got there was amazing. Uh, just for kicks. Ugly Betty. We know Betty Lafa, Samantha, who if I were on that show, I would've been insufferable because someone would've said, Yeah, I I have an idea. What if Samantha goes on a date? And I would've been like, Samantha, who? That would've been my joke all every day. Sign sealed. Oh, I skip on the client list. Sign sealed, delivered, hit Streak. The Gourmet Detective Summer. Love the Good Witch. Thank you, John. Thank you so much. Look at me. Are you impressed with how much work?

Dawn DeKeyser:

I am so impressed at. Who knew? I had no idea.

Michael Jamin:

You've done a lot of you. So anyway, I thank you so much for joining because, uh, is, we've never worked together. I always, even though I've known you for years, I always figured we would work together at some point. We just never did. And I blame you for that.

Dawn DeKeyser:

I, uh, I, blame me, we were on the same studio a lot. We were like, Yeah. Next to we had bungalows next to each other. Mm-hmm. . So that counts completely is, Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You were always a familiar face.

Dawn DeKeyser:

But before we start, can I curse?

Michael Jamin:

I don't Sure. Why, why would you, Is there something you wanna get off your chest? ?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. No, just that in the course of talking, it's gonna play a part of describing my path in life and Oh yeah. I don't think I could do it without some gods and fucks. So

Michael Jamin:

Do it. Do it up.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Cause I we're getting to the truth again. So let's begin. How did you become? Where did you start? How did you get into sit? Everyone wants to know how people get into sitcom writing or TV writing. So how did you get in?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah, so, and we all come from different angles on different paths. And in order to get to my TV days, I'll just say a little bit about my background. I was raised in a military family and my dad was a fighter pilot. And I grew up in a very great Sani kind of house. Um, I, I say I was the best son my dad ever had because I was tough and competitive. And I weighed 92 pounds and I was pious.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, did, were you the only child?

Dawn DeKeyser:

No, I had two sisters. So my mom, who was lovely, she would dress my sisters and I all in matching dresses, hats, gloves and shoes. And we would march out onto the tarmac and salute the F four phantoms as they landed.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. And so, and so you moved around the country then? Probably?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah, I was born in Japan and I lived in England.

Michael Jamin:

Oh my. And so your Okay. Military brat. And then when you say Great Santa, cuz your dad was strict. Oh, is Now, do you wanna start cursing now? What did you want to curse?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Um, well, let's see. He, we did have a flow chart of our chores on our bedrooms. And when we were, I think starting at three and four and our beds had to be made with hospital corners really. And we would have to stand in a line, add attention and get, you know, understand what our chores were gonna be for the day and for the week.

Michael Jamin:

Because you are so not that you're so, you know, kind of almost soft spoken, very gentle. You're very warm energy. You're not , you're not a, you know, uh,

Dawn DeKeyser:

It's taken a long time to get this outta my system. So when I was in junior high, we moved from England to Texas and I went from riding English, um, horseback to competing in rodeos. And I then started racing sailboats. And by college I was on the varsity team. And, um, by the way, I paid my way through college, working two or three jobs each semester. And I started working when I was 15. That's a little Rob Cohen of me. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, where did you go to school?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Um, which time? Uh, I went to, so in college I went to the University of Texas and I studied international business, Uhhuh. And then I dropped out of UT and moved to Belgium where I worked at a division of NATO for, for,

Michael Jamin:

I feel like you might speak a lot of languages. Do you speak how many languages you speak?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Um, I used to speak French when I worked in the warehouse with the Belgians. Right. Um, and then, you know, when my other girlfriends were cheerleaders and all that, I was treasurer of the Latin Club. I don't mean to brag.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. So you speak Latin. I knew you spoke. What?

Dawn DeKeyser:

And, and so then I, after dropping out, I went back and I finished up my degree in, uh, appropriately named a BS in advertising. And that's, that's really when I started my writing career. And, um, let's see, what did I do? So I started,

Michael Jamin:

You worked in advertising.

Dawn DeKeyser:

So I got to work on tv, radio, and print. And in fact, my first assignment was writing, uh, dozens of scripts for David Brener for Taco

Michael Jamin:

Bell. That was your work. Now I, now I know your work. .

Dawn DeKeyser:

That's what I'm known for. Um, so getting closer to the TV part, I was living in Dallas. My boyfriend was discovered by a talent manager, and he immediately moved out to LA and became a successful actor.

Michael Jamin:

Do we know his name?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. I went, I'll I'll say it. I mean, it was a long time ago. So Tom Hayden Church.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I did not know that. Okay.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. And so he, his confidence and his uniqueness was just like he broken right away. Mm-hmm. . And I went on to New York and in advertising, which I loved. And you know, after a while, after about two years, I thought maybe I could write something longer than 30 seconds. Mm-hmm. . So I took writing classes at night. I did improv, which I was terrible at because of that. Let's revisit the military background. I am not spontaneous.

Michael Jamin:

You're not supposed to go off script when you're in the military.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Oh. Oh, no. And I'm very methodical and you know, by this time I was like mid to late twenties and I guess I was having a quarter life crisis and thinking, what, what am I, what do I wanna do and what do I love doing? I loved writing and I loved sitcoms more than anything. Um, I didn't know how to do that. I called Tom, who was at the time on Wings, that was his first series. And I said, Could you send by now my ex-boyfriend? And I said, Could you send me the writer's draft through a producing draft? I wanna see the transition mm-hmm. of how this writing is done. And so then I started taping my favorite shows and then doing the stop and pause on the VHS tape.

Michael Jamin:

Like really studying how long a scene would be, how what the act breaks are everything. Huh.

Dawn DeKeyser:

All that. The dialogue, the, and I would map out the beats on a notepad, which by the way, I still write on old fashioned paper notepads for everything. And then I transfer it to the computer. Wow.

Michael Jamin:

That's old school.

Dawn DeKeyser:

That is old school. And it is all about the ritual. And like, I think there's something about the the brain to the heart to the hand that gets on paper that I, I don't get when I write.

Michael Jamin:

But you could, you must be able to read your handwriting. Cause I can't read my handwriting. I couldn't even try.

Dawn DeKeyser:

I no, I can't. I can get the gist of it.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? Okay.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. Um, so Tom sent me a series of one of one script and, um, I was writing my own two spec scripts. And then I moved to LA with $3,000 in cash.

Michael Jamin:

And where, what I always, I I have to What part in LA did you live at first?

Dawn DeKeyser:

I lived Endless Field, which was being hailed as the New West Village of LA and it is not. And I was living right on Vermont Avenue and I slept on my bathrobe for the first two weeks until my stuff came from New York.

Michael Jamin:

But you had a place all by yourself or you have roommates?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Uh, no, I had a place to myself. I mean, it was $700 for one.

Michael Jamin:

Mm-hmm. . That sounds about right. That's a good deal actually. Uh, even then, that's a good deal. So, okay. And then, and then how did you find a, how did you finally get work?

Dawn DeKeyser:

So I was writing these spec scripts and I sent them them to Bill Diamond and Mike Sal. Mm-hmm. . And when I moved out to LA, they were my first meeting.

Michael Jamin:

But How did you know them?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Through Tom? Because they were baby writers on the show. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah.

Dawn DeKeyser:

And they said, you know, we thought you were just gonna be some gal who want, who had this idea of writing for sick homes, but you know what you're doing. Right. And I was very happy about that. They didn't give me my first break,

Michael Jamin:

But they, but they weren't, they were just staff writers at the time.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah, yeah. Which is fine. You know, I thought the first thing I needed to do was build a community. So I took a UCLA extension class at night and on the last day of the class, everyone was filing out. Someone turned around and said, you know, the deadline for the Disney Writer's Fellowship is tomorrow. You have to have your work postmarked by then. Okay. And I ran home and got my stuff in the mail the next morning. And, um, I sort of like that intro that I just talked about my life, I sort of put some of that in the essay that you write for what's your unique background. And, um, and then sent in a, uh, a Murphy Brown, maybe. Mm-hmm. , I'm

Michael Jamin:

Not sure you had a bunch of specs

Dawn DeKeyser:

Probably. No, I had, because I'm very methodical, I would spend six months writing each of them. Okay. And that's night and day work shopping, doing writers groups, doing punch up mm-hmm. , um, until I felt like every page that your eyeballs land on made sense and was good and had a joke and you knew where the characters were going.

Michael Jamin:

Before we skip ahead, you said something I thought was really smart, you said you wanted to build your community. Right. Because a lot of people don't even think about that.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So you knew you wanted by, you knew you wanted help or you wanted, like what, what were you looking for?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Well, I knew that I didn't know anyone here. Tom was off on his own, uh, fabulous life. I knew a girl from Dallas from years before, but, um, there was, there was no one that I could send my stuff to and I did cold calling to the agents and that didn't work. Doesn't do anything. Yeah. And so in the UCLA classes, I would usually, if you've got a group of 20 people, there's two that get it, let's say 10%, they're

Michael Jamin:

Get what get you or what do you mean get it?

Dawn DeKeyser:

I mean, they get what the, they are really there to learn and to be in that field. Mm-hmm. some others, you know, just they, it's a fun class to take. Right. But you can tell the two or three people that are very, um, interested in moving their career forward. Right. So I ingratiated myself and said, Let's form a writer's group. And that was okay. You know, that was fine until you start meeting people through them, they bring in their set of information that you don't have access to mm-hmm. and then it just starts growing.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Yeah. You gotta be there. And you, you were there now, how were you making a living? You still working in advertising now?

Dawn DeKeyser:

So I was still in, I wasn't in doing advertising. I was temping and I had this job at, uh, Disney on the lot where I was answering phones for the head of marketing mm-hmm. . And I thought, I'm advertising and marketing. And because, um, at, on the second day, he came out of his office and he said, Who are you and why are you so bad at answering phones? Like you're dropping calls and you're, you're sending in the wrong people. And I was like, Yeah, cuz um, this is really what I do. I actually love the One Sheet movie posters that you guys are writing, so I'd like to write headlines for that. And I had secretly gone into the files to see what their freelancers were invoicing them.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Dawn DeKeyser:

And he said, Yeah, I don't think you're right for that. So I brought in my portfolio the next day and he said, I think you're right for this. So I started picking up freelance for movie posters,

Michael Jamin:

But that was not, See some people think that that's how you break in, but I wouldn't think that that's how to break in. That's just how to make a book. Right.

Dawn DeKeyser:

What do you mean? Like,

Michael Jamin:

Well, like that wouldn't, working in that advertising side for Disney wouldn't get you, you know, you're on the Disney lot, but it wouldn't get you as a sick, you know, get you work as a sit home writer.

Dawn DeKeyser:

That's right. So that predated getting into, so I got in the Disney Writer's Fellowship, Right. Um, that was over the course of like a two, two month process of interviewing and meeting with their executives. And I went into that meeting thinking, this is what I moved out here for. And they said, So what is your plan if, if this doesn't work out? And I said, This is going to work out. I really can't imagine y y'all finding someone better or more dedicated to doing great work. I really wanna do this. I wanna work with my heroes. I wanna work with people that will make me a better writer.

Michael Jamin:

And who were your heroes then?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Well, weirdly enough, um, I had top a top five. One was Diane English, one was Chris Lloyd, the, the writer. How

Michael Jamin:

Did you know Chris Lloyd? But yeah, I was so surprised you from, how would you know, how did you know Chris? Like how was he? He, Diane English? Yeah,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Diane English. Um, Chris was,

Michael Jamin:

Was he running, He wasn't running Fraser then?

Dawn DeKeyser:

He was like higher up on Fraser.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay. Yeah. I'm surprised you even thought of him. But I mean Yeah, he's great. He's a he is a great writer for

Dawn DeKeyser:

Sure. Yeah, he is. And I can't remember the other three, but within the first two years of breaking in, I worked with all five of them.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Wow. Now, what was the fellowship like? Cuz we did the Warner Brothers Writer's Workshop.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I'd rather you talk about it. What was the Disney one like? What was your experience there?

Dawn DeKeyser:

It was so great. They picked five people. I think they had in that year, um, 3000 applicants. They picked five of us and Wow. That's it. Pardon?

Michael Jamin:

That's it. That's, I can't, I I didn't, I didn't know it was that small.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Well, it's, I think it's bigger these days. I think they take on 10 or 20, which is good. And they have a, they had another five fellows that did only film. And our five, you know, I'm still in contact with today. We would meet, um, twice a week at each other's houses. And then usually once a week or every two weeks we'd go to Disney and we would pitch where we are with our specs script. So it was a small, like a small stipend that paid the rent. Oh

Michael Jamin:

Wow. And those five, all five went on to work?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Um, not consistently. Not really. Okay. But that again, was just, I think it has everything to do with focus. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I'll talk about that a little more of like, if you, if you are not, if you don't pick a lane, I am a sitcom half hour multi-camera mm-hmm. writer. That's what I wanna do.

Michael Jamin:

That Right. I, I so intriguing. Cause I say that I've made a number of posts about this that Yeah, put yourself in a box. People like, but I don't wanna be in a box, Put yourself in a box and you worry about getting outta the box later. But right now you need to sell yourself as who this is what you are. Why do I do? That's right.

Dawn DeKeyser:

That's right. And, and so many new writers are still struggling with that. And I said, People cannot help you if they don't know where to put you. Yeah. And so if you say, Oh, I write drama and comedy and romance, it's like, that's great for you, but I only know comedy writers. Right. So I don't think I'm gonna even help you because I don't know if you're really connected with that or with drama or

Michael Jamin:

How serious you are about it. Yeah, exactly. Market yourself. Make it easy for people. Yeah. You know? Yeah. What, See, it's, so sometimes I, sometimes I wonder, am I just bullshitting? Am I making this up? You know, am I the only one who feels this way? No, I don't, I don't think, I think I'm saying stuff everyone else thinks, you know, agrees with

Dawn DeKeyser:

You are not alone. And you're getting such great information out there to so many people. It's really spectacular.

Michael Jamin:

You're very kind.

Dawn DeKeyser:

You're fan Michael Jam. But

Michael Jamin:

That's me. So then, okay, so then okay, then what you have. All right.

Dawn DeKeyser:

So then I was in the fellowship and they put, they don't promise, but they say, we may place you on one of our Disney shows. And that's where I went onto All American Girl. Mm-hmm. . And

Michael Jamin:

It, Were they paying you? Cuz I'm Warner of Brothers. If they staffed you in one of their shows, you get, at least back then you would get, you work for like a third of scale. A third. But was that the case on Disney?

Dawn DeKeyser:

We didn't get paid, but we got paid for the scripts that we wrote because they were already paying. Like, more brothers doesn't pay you

Michael Jamin:

To pay. Right. No one of those you pay to get in.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Oh yeah.

Michael Jamin:

We paid. Yeah. We, we paid like, I think it was like $400 each or something. But I think it's way more than now. I think it's a lot more now.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Hmm. No, they, they would place you as free labor on their shows. And it was my first experience in the writer's room. It was hard. I had trouble being heard. And I did end up, we had an order for 13 episodes. I ended up writing three of them.

Michael Jamin:

What was your three? That's that's a lot actually for a staff writer. I wonder why weren't you, you must have been scared.

Dawn DeKeyser:

They liked my writing. They liked, like, I spent again, it was like, I really sweated it. This is another thing that I, that I stress to writers is sweated, you can't make a lot of money if you're not putting that amount into your writing and your own career. So

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So 13, that's a lot. And but what was it like? I mean, were you okay? I always think that when we first kinda just shoot me, I was like, I'm in over my head. I am in over my head. Yeah. How did you felt? The same way

Dawn DeKeyser:

I am in over my head. Um, I, yeah, I, it was terrifying. And I realized that I wasn't a match for people who had been in writing rooms that were louder funnier, more obnoxious, mostly just louder. Mm-hmm. . So I sat next to this one writer and I, I'd whisper things to him to see if he could pitch them for me.

Michael Jamin:

And did he? Yeah. And, and they went over and then did he give you, did you say as dope? Oh

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. Yeah. He would gimme credit. But you know, I said I don't even wanna push that. I just wanna see.

Michael Jamin:

Right. If

Dawn DeKeyser:

You're on the right game. Well, I wanna be part of this game, but I don't know how to play.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, right. Exactly. Right. And it takes several, How long did it take you before you felt like you knew how to play? How many years?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Um, well that's the interesting thing because my next job was on news radio. Right. And I, I have all, I had felt like an all American girl that I was getting my, you know, sort of getting my feet under me. But that was, they were kicked out from under me on this, on the next actual staff job that I have. Right. That I had. And it took me, um, quite a long time to feel okay in the room. And it really wasn't until many years later when I was in the ugly Betty Writers' room because the, you had drama writers there who were so great about staying on focus with the story and not performing and the performance of the comedy when you do a comedy pitch. I was scared of

Michael Jamin:

Oh, interesting. So cuz they don't have, obviously when you're doing the drama you don't have to be funny. So they're basically just talking about the story points. Cause I haven't really worked on it and they're not, Yeah. They're not hoping the joke will land cuz there is no joke.

Dawn DeKeyser:

It was so weird to, um, go out on, on an act with no joke. It was like, what? Wait, we can just cliff hanger like that. .

Michael Jamin:

Do you feel like these drama rooms are more civilized because of that?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah, definitely. They were also, they were just more writerly and, um, more mature. And I, you know, I say that sitcom riding was a full contact sport. Mm-hmm. . And I didn't realize that when I started I wanted to be around really funny people. And it was so much work for me. There was the whole other aspect of being a female writer and oftentimes the only woman in the room.

Michael Jamin:

Why? Talk about that experience a little. What's that like?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Well, it sucked .

Michael Jamin:

It, it sucked. It sucked.

Dawn DeKeyser:

It was

Michael Jamin:

Sucked. But not all the time. Just sometimes or all the time?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Every time

Michael Jamin:

On every show. Every show.

Dawn DeKeyser:

No. If there were other women in the writer's room, it was a little less terrible,

Michael Jamin:

But still terrible.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . It wasn't until I got into dramas and then dramas that I just felt like, okay, I can, I can do my work. I could be funny. I'm much funnier on the page and I would just think, Oh God, I gotta get out of the writer's room so I can be funny. Right. So that was not the best strategy.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Um, and I was the only woman on news radio that year. Andy and Eileen were there and they left after a few episodes.

Michael Jamin:

Right. But Right. But you overlap with him. Right. Cause that's how I, that's how I met you through Eileen I think.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Oh, probably. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

Michael Jamin:

And you know, they were both very, I remember I'd just shoot me, both of them. They'd pitch a line, like a story, uh, idea and then, you know, people Oh, that's good. And like, how do you know it's good? How do they, like how are they doing this? Like how do you know? You know, Anyway, but I think

Dawn DeKeyser:

That's, I don't know. Would you say that it helps to have a partner? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

For sure. It helped a lot. I mean I, you know, the two of us were clinging to each other for, you know, for dear life. . Um, I think definitely it's that way more intimidating to do it all to it on yourself. But how do you, what do you like, what do you experience even now or like lately when you have a staff writer who feels the same way that you felt like what, you know

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What goes on there?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Well, um, working on pilots, there was one young girl who came in and just to sort of observe mm-hmm. and I just took to her because she was so, um, she had a script in a big binder with all of it color coded with all of her nose. I was like, Oh my God, you're after my heart. Um, because

Michael Jamin:

She's so prepared. People, young writers come in prepared sometimes. I'm always

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah, they do. And I just said, You are after my heart. I will help you in any way that I can. And she was working for, for quite some time. I think she lives on the East coast now. Right. It's that, um, it's that showing up prepared and really earnest. Like, I love that. I kind of love when people try a little too hard and sometimes it can be cringy. I'm like, Yes, I get it. That's me.

Michael Jamin:

But do you have you also, cause I've experienced young writers who kind of don't under, they don't know what they don't know as well, you know, as well and they kind of

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Argue or overstep and, you know, have you experienced that?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Oh yeah. And the, one of the first things I say is, do not litigate. Do just, just take it in. And it's also the, um, once you learn how to take notes on your script and realize that it's not personal, get out of your own fucking way. Get outta your way. Because after like being in writer's groups, we had rules about how we gave notes to each other. And the person getting the notes has to shut up. You cannot explain why you put something in a script. It's like, I don't care why you put it in there. Here's me as a reader is not getting this part of it. Right. And there's been plenty of times I'd be giving people notes and just like in classes or writer's room. Um, Yeah. Classes a writer resume. And I could tell that they didn't want the note.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Oh well no one wants a note. . Yeah. I mean,

Dawn DeKeyser:

I mean just like basic stuff, especially in writers' groups where if, if they are arguing their stance and their reason for why they wrote something, it's like, Oh, I get it. Okay. You're good. You're good to go. All all's good.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right. And so this, see, it's so funny how we have the same, like we've never worked in the same show. We've had so many the same exact experiences.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yes. Although I would, I would, Oh you said venture to mention that. Um, you know, and some writers' rooms, it's like, I was not safe. I was commented, my body was commented on when I would walk into a room and when I would leave a room and I was told to suck it up by my agents because it was a really good show. Or

Michael Jamin:

Do you think they were trying to be funny or were they're being sexual harassing? Like, you know, what were they trying, what was the Oh,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Sometimes it was just trying to be funny. But, um, it was funny at my expense I say I was humiliated for sport on a particular show. Right. And they were cruel. And they were also like, my agents came in after one of our show tapings and they looked around the office and went, Oh, I see what you're talking about. It smells like rancid cheese in here. The guys were walking around in boxer shorts. They had brought futons to their offices cuz they were just staying there.

Michael Jamin:

So like, cuz the hours is terrible. Yeah,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. And they also had jars of their pee in the offices because I thought that was hilarious.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Dawn DeKeyser:

So that's, that's not just being like, I

Michael Jamin:

Dunno. And it's interesting that you, you were able to speak up about this because this was before people were really speaking up about this. You know what I'm

Dawn DeKeyser:

Saying? I didn't, I didn't, I mean, I didn't until more recently. That's a really,

Michael Jamin:

To your agent at least you did. You know?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Well, I just said it's so hard. I mean it's so Yeah. And that my agents were women

Michael Jamin:

And they still, And you're, they still,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I can't, I want, What do you think if that were today though? I can't imagine

Dawn DeKeyser:

It wouldn't happen today.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You'd be taking a lot more seriously, you know. Yeah,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. It, it, it, yeah. It wouldn't happen today. Um, that, that show ended up not hiring a woman writer for the rest of its run for like three or four more seasons.

Michael Jamin:

And, but from what I understand, well maybe, maybe I shouldn't say which show it was. Do we say which show it was? I know some,

Dawn DeKeyser:

It may have earlier, but

Michael Jamin:

I know some of the, like some of these shows that you were on the hours were absolutely terrible. Terrible. Like, what were those, what was that like?

Dawn DeKeyser:

That was like being held hostage by a crazy person. Right. And that sometimes the showrunner would be on medication and they would not be able to focus and they would just kind of keep us there. A lot of times you'd hear about showrunners who just didn't wanna go home to their wife and kids, which is terrible,

Michael Jamin:

Terrible, terrible. Right. Wow.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. Wow. So that was, that was hard. I mean, driving home at four in the morning and then getting up at around 10, um, and then getting back to the office by 10 30 or 11,

Michael Jamin:

Was there a lot of sitting around and waiting? Or was it all work?

Dawn DeKeyser:

No, it was a lot of sitting around and waiting and storytelling galing each other. Mm-hmm. , you know. Geez. But, but things are not, they don't work that way anymore. Which is,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't think so. You gotta, yeah. When you get, that's a bad situation. Uh, sometimes like we, you know, we did a couple bad hours like on just shoot me, but it was never, cuz we were dicking around, it was because like a story blew, blew up and we had to work till four in the morning. That was a couple of those. But it wasn't, cuz it wasn't ill behavior. It was just, that's just the, you know, sometimes that happens.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah, for sure. And you know, people like Steve Levitan and some of the other guys you've worked with, they are not there to make a point or single someone out just for fun. Yeah. And you guys, you and Sea were as showrunners, you would never do that. You would never write that.

Michael Jamin:

No. Our goal was always to go home early. That was, how could we go home early today, , what could we do to get the work done, Have a, have a good hour. Um, but what about developing when you, you know, come up with your own ideas? What's that? How does that work?

Dawn DeKeyser:

That was, um, that was usually, uh, someone that I'd be in the writer's room with. They would come to me and say, I've got an idea. Do you like this? Or we would pair up just for the pitch.

Michael Jamin:

So most of your develop, Okay. So people ask me about that. Can you, can you work independently or can you work with team up with people? Cuz we, we, you know, that's what you did mostly.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. And when I was, um, like I'd say mid-level writer mm-hmm. , it would behoove me to go in with a showrunner or a co p Right. And, um, just so that I could to have those meetings and kind of get the lay of the land until later when I would write

Michael Jamin:

Around.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But in the beginning, were you, were you kind of working under them or were you literally together.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Together. Okay. Together.

Michael Jamin:

And, and then now, okay, now when you come up with an idea, how does that work alone? I mean,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Oh, it was, it was great. So we're, we've been talking mostly about the nineties and then after a few of the shows, like I, I went to work through the rest of the nineties, but I did definitely get the comedy knocked out of me. Um, I went on to do a series of shows and over that time there were less and less options because we had the game shows coming in and reality tv. And by 2000 I went to rehab and it was very helpful. I mean, you know, I got this shit kicked out of me and I was no match. I was not cravenly ambitious. I was just always grateful to be there, which doesn't give you any control. And with, with my, it was a short stint and I was able to piece things together. I also took jobs for shorter amounts of time. Like if they had a full year season, I'd say I'll work the first 13.

Michael Jamin:

What if they pick, what if they wanted you for the back nine or whatever.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Then I said, I'm not available. And I'd move to New York and just kind of in between each show I had to do a lot of repair. I just had to sleep.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. I I, I didn't even know that was an option. Like that's kind of, I that's kind of unusual to kind of good for you. Like, you're calling the shots, you're saying this is what I'm willing to do. I don't know anybody who does that, who can do that, I guess.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Well I wasn't, um, I couldn't, I mean financially it was not the thing to do, but mentally I knew that I had to not put myself in harm's way. Right. And, um, I always, it also had advertising to go back to occasionally. Right. So, um, you know, by, I would say, so I continued to work. I'd pick up an episode here, um, less staff drops available, but I just kind of eked out a living. It wasn't the trajectory that I'd started on. Right. And I was okay with that.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.

Michael Jamin:

Basically this is the, the interesting part, which I don't really talk about a lot on anything is the economics of really being a writer. Because I don't know, we don't just talk about it, but cuz we were saying, you know, you kind of, you kind of, you were calling the shots. You're saying, this is what I'm willing to do. I don't want, I'll work this much, I don't wanna work that much because it's not , it's not good for me, my mental health. And I get that. Um, but so then to kind of to, you know, had to make, to make ends meet, you also have this other project that you've been working on and I wanna talk about that.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yes. So I think we, uh, we were talking about 2000 rehab, excellent. Mm-hmm. very helpful. And so it was on the heels of that that I was starting to piece together what I wanted my life to look like, which was not working 18 hours a day with difficult people. Yeah. So I would, I would take my jobs for shorter amounts of time. Like if a, if a show had an order for 22, I said I'll work on the first 13. Right. And then I would generally go to Texas or New York and then just repair in between shows. And it, financially it was not a strong way to do it. But, um, I wanted to circle back a little bit on the, the rehab stuff. Um, you had asked at one point about did I, was I an AA and I wanna say that that never worked for me.

Dawn DeKeyser:

And there was this book a few years back called Quit Like A Woman. And it's about, it was by H Whitaker and it's about smart recovery. And one of the things that just made so much sense to me was that AA is a AAL system. And one of the first things that they ask you to do is give, give away your power. And the thing is, we women are rendered powerless in so many situations already. Why the fuck would I wanna go into a meeting and, and not have any agency over myself and my decisions? So that's a part of smart recovery and I love it. I think it's really

Michael Jamin:

Do do you meet as as often as, as somebody you know, in, in the group or, you know?

Dawn DeKeyser:

No, and the thing about it is, um, I'm sort of a social drinker. I don't have an issue with that anymore. And it's really about like, if you have a drink, you don't start at day one. You just, you figure out if you wanna manage your use of anything or, um, if you don't want to . Right. And, and it's just, um, it's just less, um, punishing Right. Say so. Um, and I know that, you know, we're writers, we're tender souls and we feel a lot. And I just wanted to get sort of, get that out there. That's something that's really helped and resonated with

Michael Jamin:

Viola Davis said something like that, you know, obviously not a writer but an actor, but she said, I guess I can't remember what it was about, but she's basically saying someone criticized her for having thin skin. And she goes, I'm supposed to have thin skin. That's, I'm an artist. Like I, you know, I'm not supposed to have thick skin . I'm supposed to feel things and express things. You

Dawn DeKeyser:

Know? That's right. That's right. I mean, that's what we do. We do. And um, we feel things and then we express them and we write them and we get it out there and people get it. They understand that. Um, you can't be general in really good writing. You gotta be specific.

Michael Jamin:

Right, Exactly. Specific. Yes. Yeah. Well tell but tell me about your summit.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Okay, so sum

Michael Jamin:

It up.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Sum it up. Um, one, sum it up. One of the things we don't talk about as writers is all that dead air, that space between gigs or the fact that the seasons are shorter now, and there's the writing staffs are smaller and the industry expands and contracts and the summit called writers making money. Lose the ego, tap into your talent and bring cash in during these weird ass apocalyptic times. I'm said that earlier. And, um, it's really about what are you doing for passive income investing? How are you keeping the lights on mm-hmm. and these, So I talk to money experts and mindset coaches and, um, we talk about things like cash machines, which is how do you bring in a little bit just in passive income? It's not hard. Um, if you have lazy assets, like my IRA's been sitting there doing nothing for a long time. And, um, we talked about what types of entities as a creative person you need to set up and forget it'll run on its own without you. But just getting all of that in place. And so, uh, in 2020 my life imploded mm-hmm. . And after that, and I'll just say a little bit like in 2020 my house flooded and I lost about 50 years worth of furniture, clothing, art, stuff like that. And then my husband, um, emailed me d divorce papers.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And then it gets worse,

Dawn DeKeyser:

And then it gets worse. And then covid hit. And then while the house was being torn apart with asbestos, tenting, my daughter and I moved into one corner of the house during, while she was in virtual school, I lost my dream job. I lost the house. And then we just decided to go and spend time in Woodstock, New York with friends, which was good. And then we came back in November and about that Thanksgiving, my husband passed away. Right. So that was very hard. And, um, I spent after, you know, we went through the grieving process and then after we , just after we got that done, after we were cured of that , I started into just figuring out again, what do I want my life to look like in my career? And I still wanna write. And so I started taking business classes, business coaching, leadership training, um, and talking to money experts and just like, what, how am I setting myself up for generational wealth? Which is something that I didn't look ahead, I didn't look to, excuse me. And then my daughter got into college, which was amazing, and she's in New York now. She's at the number one design school in the country, Parsons. And we said yes. And then I looked at the, how much it was gonna cost and out. Oh. And also in 2020, all my money kind of evaporated, unbeknownst to me. So I was really starting from scratch with no home address. Right. And, um,

Michael Jamin:

What do you mean your money evaporated? What hap what do you mean?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Well, um, my husband was, um, he was not, well, he was very troubled and very ill. And that kind of went with him. So

Michael Jamin:

He, Okay. So he learned,

Dawn DeKeyser:

He found out that we were a few hundred thousand in debt. So again, all that doesn't matter, it's just money. So we find out that Ava's college is 80,000 Right. Thinking, you know what, we're gonna do this. We'll just figure out a way. So for the last 18 months, I have been figuring out ways to set our lives up and start bringing in money in a different way outside of tv, outside of just writing as a creative person. And it's working and I wanna, and I just want people to know that there's, I

Michael Jamin:

Share that that's important cuz you know, creative people, like, we don't go into this profession, at least I don't think, you know, we don't go into the special to become middle managers. We don't go to become to know about money because like, you know, I think that's part of, also, I'm not excusing any of the bad behavior in TV shows, but no one becomes a writer because they wanna manage people. They go because they just wanna goof off and be creative and do whatever and that. But the problem is that can, that can affect people, other people working underneath you, you know?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah, for sure. You know that as a showrunner. Yeah. And you work up through the ranks because of your writing talent and then you're suddenly in an administrative position, Right. As a showrunner, right? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's like, I don't, I didn't want, I don't wanna be the boss, I just wanna be a writer. But, but this is how it is now. Now you have to manage people. So anyway, so, but, but so that's why I think what you're talking about in your summit is important. So Yeah. Tell us more about it. Yeah.

Dawn DeKeyser:

So I think it's really important because we are, this is gonna talk about, um, using your left brain in a right brain industry mm-hmm. . And it's not that hard. It's not that scary. I talked to this one woman who's known for her millionaire maker series, and I started working with her this summers. Like, what am I, I'm doing everything wrong. I know that, and I've made money and I've spent it, and I would kind of like to not do that anymore. And her team is, you know, they're talking about how to get me set up and any of their other clients and it's been just a complete game changer. Right. Like, it just, um, and she's very intense and very complex in all of the knowledge that she has. She's not a Susie Orman or Dave Ramsey where they talk about saving mm-hmm. and don't have that latte in the morning.

Dawn DeKeyser:

And she says, Oh, you know, fuck all that live. You're like, make money and do the right thing with it because we just aren't ever aware of what to do. Like lazy assets. My IRA sitting there, and now I'm going to instead take some of that out and put it into a, an investing group that will, will put money into apartment buildings and real estate. And y'all who have houses out here are, you know, that is great, but it's not a financial strategy. Mm-hmm. . And anyway, so I was excited about learning all of this, especially on the heels of having to reconfigure my whole life. And I just wanna get it out there.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You had, you did a giant reset. A giant reset. Yeah. Very overwhelming. I I'm getting nervous just thinking about what you did .

Dawn DeKeyser:

It was, um, it was weird. It was, yeah. It was really hard. And, um, yeah, I am grateful. Like I'm grateful for my life. There's one of two ways you can go when tragedy happens. And that is, you can stay in it and think of the all the other bad things that are right around the corner mm-hmm. or, um, you can pick yourself up and get going in a completely different way. That's the, that was the, the real impetus for me is like, I wanna do things differently and Oh, and there was something you said about h hustling. Yes. Yes. Um, so I'm, I'm now putting questions out there and answering them and not even giving you any air time . Like, we all hustle, we all get that, get the work done. One thing that I wanted to do in this new reset was to not hustle as much what I do. I'm working a lot, but at home on my own schedule. And if it feels like it's getting stressful or sense of urgency, I take a nap. Right. I just slow down and I wanna do it in a more peaceful way.

Michael Jamin:

Right. That's so interesting. And so people can learn more about your, the [email protected]

Dawn DeKeyser:

Slash writers making money

Michael Jamin:

Back slash writers making money. And so then when is the next one?

Dawn DeKeyser:

It's going to be October 17th through the 19th. So for three days we have, Oh, sorry. For three days we have nine speakers. Right. And each day we'll talk like one, I talk to an actress who is now writing this really fabulous, um, children's book series. She loves that. She's like, I still act, but here's something that fills my heart. Right. Um, talking to Laura Lang Meyer, who's intense, she's still intense. Um, and she is all, she's, she talks about money in a way of let's get everything. Let's not have your bookkeeper talk to your cpa, talk to your business manager. She's like, We just do everything and, and all in one place, which is what I,

Michael Jamin:

And we should mention, this is all free for people who want to join the summit. Right. It's

Dawn DeKeyser:

All free. It's free, free, free. So you just sign up, give me your email and your name, and you'll get access to all of that.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right. Yeah. And then, but then you and you also have a consulting business, a script consulting

Dawn DeKeyser:

Business. I do. So all that's gonna launch to, I am all about putting everything off to the last minute. So that launches next week, and that'll be on my dawn de kaiser.com website. I'll do, I'll be doing script consulting, um, coaching for creatives and the writer's room. We're going be, we'll meet once a once a week

Michael Jamin:

About,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. We'll do guest speakers and q and a and then writing sprints.

Michael Jamin:

Once a writing sprint

Dawn DeKeyser:

That is kind of a Pomodoro style I put on a timer and heads, pencils up, heads down.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. And then you give a little short assignment. People

Dawn DeKeyser:

Not even, you know, I'll say, set your intention at the very beginning of what you wanna accomplish in the next 25 minute sprint. Okay. And, um, and we just do check in. It helps to get online or, you know, to check in with other people. Your Facebook group is really going strong and people are finding each other there. Mm-hmm. . And that's been really helpful for them.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. You got a lot going on.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. Um,

Michael Jamin:

Now I wanna talk about when you're, when you're on a a show, like what's, what's your experience like working with new young writers and and what do you see? Dos and don'ts?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. I see the ones that really, that just grab my heart are the ones who try really hard. Mm-hmm. , they are like, to a cringy point, like I love that. I was working on a pilot and this one young writer came in, she was gi given a shot and she had her script in a big binder, three reading binder with all of her color coordinated post-it notes. Mm-hmm. that. And, and I just thought, she's after my own heart. Like I, that's She was prepared. She was prepared. That's right.

Michael Jamin:

Because sometimes new young writers, they'll look at the boss and because the boss very often isn't really prepared because, you know, they got a million things going on. Or even some of the upper level writers are kind of play it loose. But, uh, and so some of 'em think, well, if the boss has got his feet up on the, or her feet up on the desk, so could so can I, I'll just do what the boss is doing. . But you're not the boss. You

Dawn DeKeyser:

Know, you have not earned the right to put your feet up on the table yet.

Michael Jamin:

Right. So you, But when you see people come in prepared, uh, you know, I like that. I like, sometimes they'll, like, they'll say, I have a pitch. I'm like, Oh good. I, they'll say like, I have five ideas. Well let's hear 'em. I don't have any ideas.

Dawn DeKeyser:

That's right. . That's right. Yeah. It's just, it's just sort of, um, you know, not taking it personally mm-hmm. . And uh, I see a lot of writers who litigate their script. Mm-hmm. ,

Michael Jamin:

They overstep. Right.

Dawn DeKeyser:

They do. And they just argue for the, they don't need to argue. Mm-hmm. , they, their work is on the page. It either is working or it's not. And you are in a room with professionals who will tell you mm-hmm. and you don't need to explain to them what you put in the script and why, because they don't care. It's not working. Right. Right. So yeah. It is that losing the ego part of it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's, it's hard for people to, it's hard for young writers to accept that. Um, and they don't see it yet. And then as you get older, and then sometimes I feel like, ah, I, I'm like, crouchy the old guy. Um, but I, I don't, I don't think so. I think like you just, you have the experience. It's like, I don't wanna argue with you. I, you know, I know from experience that this is how, this is how it's gotta go. This is what this is. What you presented is not gonna work. I just know. I just know that, you

Dawn DeKeyser:

Know. Yeah. You've, you've done your time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Um, and do you feel, But how do you, and I think I I I, we talked about this a little bit. How, how do you think people are breaking in today?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Oh, that's right. I said I do not know. I have no idea. Yeah. I have no idea. Um, what you and Rob Cohen talked about was just coming in from all different angles. Like mine was a winding road getting here. And um, some of it worked, some of it didn't. But, um, that, yeah. It's like no one is going to give you a career. They will give you a shot. Right. And that's why your work has to be outstanding. And I say, not good, not great. Outstanding. And you'll get work. You know, I, I just, um, and there are so many,

Michael Jamin:

Cause some people think, well, it's good enough or it's better than what the garbage that I see on tv. And they think, well, you know, Okay, okay. Maybe it is, but it's, you know, that's not good enough

Dawn DeKeyser:

That, But people have been saying that since I started in tv. It's like, Oh, it's better than what's on the air. No, it's not .

Michael Jamin:

No,

Dawn DeKeyser:

No. You, you are competing with a room of 12 professional writers who have each other to bounce it off of. And there's a reason that they write all of that. It may not end up great. That may be for all these reasons that you have no access to, which is network notes or, um,

Michael Jamin:

Acting notes. The actor you can get it from. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of reasons even, you know, I haven't really talked about this a lot, but even writing a bad television show is hard. Even writing bad TV is hard, You know,

Dawn DeKeyser:

, it's so hard. I worked on this one show that was a drama but just inadvertently a comedy. It was so terrible. And I think we got written up in the Hollywood Reporter for it just being so campy. We weren't going for campy, we were just trying , We're just, just trying to get the scripts to the actors.

Michael Jamin:

Right. How funny. Do and, and do you find, I think we, we've talked, I don't remember we mentioned this, but do you find working cuz you kind of transitioned to from comedy sitcom to DRM or, and even drama, like, um, and I think you were talking about even more chill. Like what? Cause I hadn't worked in drama, really. So what are the differences in the writing room, the writers' room for

Dawn DeKeyser:

That? Yeah. It's a, it's a's a huge difference. So, um, 2017 Me Too movement mm-hmm. , um, that was a game changer for people like me who had been dragged around a few rough corners. And, um, it did change the, it changed the personality of a lot of writers' rooms. As, as you know, for me, um, comedy was always kind of a full contact sport. Mm-hmm. , you'd be in the room with comedians, performers, writers, and there would be jumping up and down and just, it was a lot of performance. And so Right.

Michael Jamin:

Because you gotta sell that joke.

Dawn DeKeyser:

You gotta sell it. Right. You gotta sell it. No one else is gonna sell it. Um, so I, my first job in drama was Ugly Betty, but they had, half of the staff was comedy writers, which hadn't been done a lot or before. Right. So what I noticed was that the drama writers were so writerly and they were so not worried about selling the act break and getting the big joke out on a beat or a scene. And it was, it was so great. It was so great to talk about the story and not about not worry about how you're gonna sell the joke for me. Right. I, I liked that part of it. And then I went on to be in other drama rooms that were just very respectful.

Michael Jamin:

And how did you make that transition? You had basic, cuz it's not like you could just jump from comedy writer to drama. You ba you're kind of starting over

Dawn DeKeyser:

Kinda, you know, I didn't look at it that way. I will say that drama writers don't tend to become comedy writers.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right. It's, it's a one, right? You, if you can write comedy, you could probably write drama, but not necessarily the other way around. Right.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Right. I mean, it's just a whole different muscle. Um, I don't know. I think I got this shit kicked out of me in comedy, so I thought, I wanna be . I'm now more serious.

Michael Jamin:

But now you started writing sample, you had to write samples. You gotta start as if you'd never done ob cause you'd never done it before. You had start writing drama samples.

Dawn DeKeyser:

That's right. And I found that the agents did not want to marketing me that way. You know, I've already established myself and, and they would then have to hand me over to a different set of agents.

Michael Jamin:

That's interesting. Right? Cause I talk about this. Well, so many people think that soon as I get an agent, how do I get an agent? They say this all the time. How do I get an agent as if that's gonna help at all? You know, that's not gonna change your life. Once you've, you know, once even when you become at your level, you know you're in charge,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Right? Yeah, absolutely. And I didn't get an agent until I was, I'd won some script writing contests. I was in the Disney Writer's Fellowship. I was writing all those scripts on one of their shows, and I still couldn't get an agent. Still

Michael Jamin:

Couldn't get an agent. Yeah.

Dawn DeKeyser:

And so I called, I contacted CAA and uta and they're like, Yeah, no, we're very interested. And no one would pull the trigger. So I called CAA back and said, Yeah, I'm going into UTA this afternoon. And that's when I got the offer. And then I called uta. I said, Yeah, I'm gonna go on, go ahead and go to CAA this afternoon.

Michael Jamin:

And Wow. So you were just bluffing? Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, we, for a while when we, um, God, where were we? I think we were at, uh, Endeavor. Mm-hmm. . And we weren't getting much. Um, we, I guess we weren't getting to kind of help the support we needed then as soon as, but as soon as we threatened to, to go to uta mm-hmm. , like everyone was called suddenly, suddenly they wanted to talk to us. .

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. Yeah. That'll get them sitting up straight. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

good for you. That's hard. That's, that's, uh, gutsy. But, okay. So then, um, but in terms of breaking stories, it, is it kind of the same on a, on a drama for

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. It's kind of the same. Instead of going out on a big blow, you go out on a big cliff hanger. Right. And

Michael Jamin:

A pregnant moment.

Dawn DeKeyser:

What?

Michael Jamin:

That's, that's what I was told. It's called, It's, it's a pregnant, a pregnant moment. Like, Oh

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yes, that's right. Yes. What next? Yeah, and I, I just really liked it. I had this lovely experience working with Martha Williamson, who created Touch by an Angel. Mm-hmm. . And she's one of like the top Christian women in the country. And she was interviewed on 60 Minutes and she had quite a big career. And I had never been in a respectful writer's room before. And so I was like, Oh, we can't say fuck. And they, the two other guys, it was just like four of us. Mm-hmm. said, Oh, no, no, no. And so I thought, okay, no, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna give it a go , and

Michael Jamin:

I'm gonna hold my tongue when I don't have to say be crashed. Weird.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. I'm not gonna be disgusting. So, um, it was a really great experience. Right. That's interesting. And yeah. And the other, the dramas that I've done, and then, and then things sort of went, like I was able to write, um, episodes of Hallmark shows that's, I call that the women, the women writers ghetto. Um, cause we all, we all sort of end up there doing our cozy mysteries, which, um,

Michael Jamin:

It used to be, I guess children's shows, but I guess now you're saying for it's, it's home, It's, uh,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Hallmark has always been the family network. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Family. Family.

Michael Jamin:

But when you develop, are you develop on your own? Are you, are you mostly doing comedy or drama?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Um, comedy, No, I would say both. And I'm not developing a lot. I have had this one idea that I love so much that I'm afraid to write it. I just, I just can't seem to do it.

Michael Jamin:

Why? Why?

Dawn DeKeyser:

Because I want it to be really good.

Michael Jamin:

Well, why don't you make, Write it as a book then?

Dawn DeKeyser:

No, it's a great series.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But if you sell it as a book, then, then you can turn it as a TV show. No.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Mm. Book writing. That's hard.

Michael Jamin:

Book writing. What would I know?

Dawn DeKeyser:

What writing

Michael Jamin:

? What do you mean book writing? ?

Dawn DeKeyser:

What is this book thing you talk about?

Michael Jamin:

Um, so interesting. But, okay, so I wanna make sure everyone knows more about, I guess I, when we talked about it, I wanna make sure before we sign off, but everyone knows more about how they can get in touch with you, how they can find you and learn more about your summit and your, your consulting services and all that.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. So that's all coming out next week and maybe by the time this runs, Yeah, probably it's, yeah, Hope. Um, Instagram @dawndekeyserwrites TikTok @dawndekeyserwrites website DawnDeKeyser.com. And I will tell you, you know, you use your name and all of your stuff. I would, I just was so uncomfortable doing that. I was calling it everything else, but what I am doing. So now it's just my name.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know. I was, I was a little in the beginning. I was, uh, you know, it was uncomfortable cuz writers don't, we're not actors. We're behind the scene. It's, it's weird for us to, uh, promote ourselves this way. That's not what we do. We're not act, That's what the actors we write for somebody else put them in front. So that was a hurdle for me to, I had to get over, you know?

Dawn DeKeyser:

How did you get over it?

Michael Jamin:

Um, you know, I I I'm always reminded of the Oscar Wild. There's a wonderful qu I think he said, but I'm not sure cause I can find it again. But he said you'd worry, I think he said you'd worry less about what other people thought. Think about you if you realized how little they did. Which works on two levels, which means they already think you're garbage. So what are you worried about? Or they're just, they're just thinking about themselves. And so, yeah, I just, at some point I was like, I screw it. If people wanna judge me, let, let them, they're, they're gonna forget about me anyway. I'm not on anyone's, you know, why does no one's staying up late to think about me .

Dawn DeKeyser:

Right, right. That's good to know. I mean, that's, that is liberating.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I, I, I do actually, I've thought about it a lot and especially as a writer, cuz I started, you know, writing more like personal essays, more stuff about my life. And, um, and then I kind of realized that there's like a paradox about judge being about judgment and that, cause I, you know, I, I did this show and then I didn't want people to think like, my biggest fear would be to perform my work and have people think, Oh, this guy's not a good writer. You know? And to be a good writer, you have to expose yourself. Yeah. And that's the paradox. So if I don't want people to judge me, I have to put my, allow people to judge me. I have to make myself vulnerable so that they might judge me ironically. And if you do that, they ironically won't judge you. You know,

Dawn DeKeyser:

On your website you talk about vulnerable, being vulnerable. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Dawn DeKeyser:

Yeah. It's hard. It's hard because that's exactly right. You put your yourself out there, your heart and it can hurt.

Michael Jamin:

But to me, the bigger pain is having someone say, Oh, you can't write . So like, that would hurt harder . So I'd rather just ex be vulnerable. And that people Wow. Cuz people walk away, they go, Wow, how'd you do that? That was pretty brave. I'm like, whew. No, it would've been brave if I gone up there with my less than adequate work then, you know, that would've been brave. I feel like, you

Dawn DeKeyser:

Know, . Yeah. Yes. Um, keep your work at the highest level. You know, that's just, there, there are no shortcuts. Yeah, there's a lot of different ways in, but they're just not shortcuts.

Michael Jamin:

The, that's another thing, and I was gonna do, I guess a post about this, but every time I talk to a writer, everyone has a different way in. There's no, it's not like becoming a doctor where you go to med school, you take these, you take your MCATs, you go to med school, you to residency for a writer. Everyone has a different path to get in. So it's not like, you know, it's more like a curiosity thing When I ask people how they break in, but it's not like you can follow that path. You have to make your own,

Dawn DeKeyser:

You know? Yeah, no, and for to follow my path, you'd have to go . You do a little time travel into an alcoholic family, so I don't

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you don't wanna do that. Yeah, no, don't do it. Don't do it. . Wow. Well, Dawn, I want to thank you so much for joining me. This is gonna be a good one. This is gonna be a good one. So thank you so much. Everyone go check out her website, dawn to kaiser.com. She's got a lot to offer. The, the, the webinars free. Sit in on that. You'll, you'll get a lot and, you know, thank

Dawn DeKeyser:

You stuff for promoting that. Of course. You know, we as writers and not marketers, thank you.

Michael Jamin:

You No, Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you're being too shy, so I have to promote you.

Dawn DeKeyser:

Okay, yeah, that's alright. Thank you so much.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you. Yeah. Well, well thank you again. I'll put this up. All right everyone, until next time. Bye-Bye. ,

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

This week, Michael Jamin interviews Writer/Producer Christy Stratton about her career in Hollywood. Christy Stratton has worked on shows like The Amanda Show, King of the Hill, Modern Family, and Bless The Harts.

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Christy Stratton:

Story has become so unimportant, I'm guessing to, to buyers or something. I don't know why, but it is like, story was so important to us coming up and how much time you devoted to it, that it's surprising to me when, you know, people don't know it. I mean, again, it took me forever, but when it's so important and I feel like, um, it's kind of a lost art...

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin and you're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This, the podcast. My co-host Phil is not here today. He's working on the back end of the course. He's making it better. That's what I'm told. But I'm here with my very special guest, Christy Stratton. She's a great friend and thank you Christy, thank you for joining the show. I'm hop

Christy Stratton:

You, I'm, so any, any chance I can get to, to have a chat with you is, is, um, it's exciting, really.

Michael Jamin:

Let tell you something, Christy, I'm

Christy Stratton:

This big star.

Michael Jamin:

My audience does not deserve you. You're too good for the people

Christy Stratton:

. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

But let me tell you, let me tell them, Let me give you a little intro. Let me give them an introduction so they know who you are. Okay? So, uh, TV writer and producer, uh, I'm gonna just run through some of your credits. I met you on King of the Hill. We were together for many years, but before that you did Hope and Faith. Remember that show? I remember it awkward. You were on a, you were on Awkward for, for a long time. Every Everyone's crazy but us, which was your own minute web series, right? Yes. Which you also directed. Correct. Uh, then Modern Family, we've both heard of that show. Bless the hearts. You've worked on that for, for quite a while. You also did Hope in Faith. You like chose, uh, you like No, you, I'm sorry. Raising Hope you like shows with the word hope in it.

Christy Stratton:

I, what can I say that is just, that's a theme that I

Michael Jamin:

and so I got many questions for you, but I know some of the answers. But these people listening, they don't know anything. So tell me, tell everyone how you've broke into the business.

Christy Stratton:

Oh, it's so, you know, it, it was such a, a backwards kind of way. I'm from Texas, right? And I went to college in Florida and I, I, the Universal Studios Orlando had just opened when I graduated from college. So like, that was Hollywood's me, that was showbiz, right? And so I worked as a pa and um, one of the PAs that I work with said, Oh, there's this thing called the DGA Trainee test. Do you know what this is?

Michael Jamin:

I didn't know what it is. Yeah,

Christy Stratton:

Well, what it is, is it's a test that they, I think they still have DGA trainees on, on sets, and they will put you, if you like, are selected. They put you on sets and that you can be a pa. So, which is, I didn't end up passing or getting, uh, to be a DGA trainee, but it brought me out here and I was kind of like, like, I, I really don't know what it is I want, but it's not, you know, in Orlando, Florida. So I,

Michael Jamin:

But you didn't know if you wanted to be a writer or director. You just wanted to

Christy Stratton:

Be, I couldn't even imagine being a writer. Like, I couldn't even, Ima I wouldn't even dream of doing anything like that. Never.

Michael Jamin:

But then what did you wanna do?

Christy Stratton:

Well, I just wanted to kind of work in entertainment. Well, that's the thing is like, I, when I got out here, I started working at a PR firm and I'm like, Okay, PR that's not what I'm, you know, that's not my, you know, nothing against that. But I just wasn't good at that. Right? And, um, and then I worked, oh gosh, I did a bunch of temp jobs, but then I got, uh, I heard about the Groundlings School and the Groundlings is an LA based comedy troupe and a lot of very famous Saturday Night Live people came from it. And they had a, uh, series of classes that you can take. And I wasn't terribly successful with that either, but it was like, Oh, I'm enjoying, um, writing. And, and, and so it took many years to get to that point. And I did not get through to the Groundlings, but I went to this other theater called Acme Comedy Theater. Right. And some of the people there, Brett Bear and David Fikel were there, Alex Boorstein, some people were there that were doing, that were writing scripts. And so I thought, well, I, I, I'll, I'll try that. And so I, then I wrote a couple different ones and I got into the Warner Brothers TV writers program.

Michael Jamin:

You did that. Wait, hold on. Slow down. Yes. Like, first of all this, no one was gonna want, no one wants to hear the answer to this, but me. But what part of town did you live in when you first came to la?

Christy Stratton:

Oh gosh. I li well, I li because I was a PA in Florida, one of the gals had already moved out here, so I kind of was her roommate in, uh, in Santa Monica. But then I lived in this tiny little room that I lived with somebody else in Sherman Oaks. Right. Shared the bath. I shared a bathroom with a cat, . And I can remember like walking in on the cat doing his business and being like, Oh, sorry, I'll come back, . It was really, um, and I didn't, for myself, it was just rough. And, and I, it, one of my biggest regrets, and I don't have many, is that I didn't take typing in, in high school. Right? Because you get all the top temp jobs if you can type fast. And I never could, but anywho. But yeah, I lived all over in just tiny. And then I lived in West Hollywood in a bachelor apartment that did not have a kitchen. It had, um, uh, uh, hot plate and a mini fridge. And so if I wanted to, What

Michael Jamin:

Street was this on West Hollywood? Cause I lived in West Hollywood too.

Christy Stratton:

On Melrose.

Michael Jamin:

What? Melrose and what?

Christy Stratton:

Oh God, you don't Melrose. Um, where Mellon Rose's is, Oh gosh. What is, Uh, Kings.

Michael Jamin:

Kings. Oh, okay. You're further west. Okay. Yeah.

Christy Stratton:

Yeah. Interesting. And I would use the toilet as my garbage disposal. Like, it was, it was really meager.

Michael Jamin:

You paid your dues. And then I didn't realize you were in the, Cause we were in the Water Brothers Spreaders program too. Oh, I didn't realize that. But what, I don't know what year we were in. I wonder if you were before or after us.

Christy Stratton:

I'm sure I was after.

Michael Jamin:

Do you , how dare you. How dare you imply Oh

Christy Stratton:

No, But you were already a producer When I would say when I was a

Michael Jamin:

Did you, did you enjoy, did you enjoy it? Did you like,

Christy Stratton:

Um, I did because it was the first time if all the things I tried and I tried stand up, I tried, Oh my goodness. I tried everything and it was the only thing that I felt positive feedback coming back to me. And it was. And so I think all of those years of trying to do all those other things in comedy, trying to figure it out, um, helped. And, uh, and so I just, and I lucked out that I was one of the ones that was read at the end. So my first job interview as a writer was for friends, and I did not get it.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Must have been a good script. And you ever wrote with anybody, you've never collaborated with anybody, Right?

Christy Stratton:

Consider that. You know, I, like I did, I did actually. In fact, it's funny, I'm about to go out with a pitch with a person that I used to write with. I did for a while. I wrote a couple with my friend Dave. But, um, but I, you know, I don't know that I found that other person that it, that, that it worked out. Cuz you have to have that kind of equal amount of work and your work ethic has to be the same. And you're, and, and I, I don't know, I guess I never found that, that person and that, cuz that would've been helpful. And I, you know, I love collaborating and, and that kind of stuff

Michael Jamin:

Now. So you got outta the Warner Brothers, but people don't know this. When you're in the Warner Brothers workshop and you graduate, especially, you were like, probably the top of the class. They try to set you up. They try to pimp you out to one of those shows at a discount rate. They probably about a third of what the Writer's Guild minimum is. But you're okay at that point. You're so desperate. You'll do it cuz whatever. Right? Yeah. And they, they got you meeting with friends, which is amazing. I'm

Christy Stratton:

At it. I did not get the job. Which, which honestly my learning curve was very, you know, slow and long. And I, I didn't have any, like, I knew what I thought was funny and I have a background that's very unique to a lot of people that are out here, but it took years for me. And so if I'd had gotten on that show, I don't, I don't know that I would've lasted. I mean it, like, it was the end. I mean, it was, I think it was the last season, but, Oh, okay. But I mean, it, I would've been grateful for the opportunity, but I don't know that I would've been, um, a lot of those lessons I had to learn. I'm glad I learned them. Um, on, on, I don't know, not so big a stage, I guess.

Michael Jamin:

Well, were you crushed when you didn't get it though?

Christy Stratton:

That's a good question. I was bummed.

Michael Jamin:

How could you not be?

Christy Stratton:

I was bummed, but I was a little bit relieved.

Michael Jamin:

And then at that point you had an agent, right?

Christy Stratton:

I had imagine going into the, going into those

Michael Jamin:

Program. That's pretty impressive that you got in any the, the program. I mean, it's hard to get in. Okay. So then what happened after they, you got submitted to other shows?

Christy Stratton:

So then, um, Yes, and I, that's when I got on Three Sisters and I, I was, I was useless. I cannot overstate,

Michael Jamin:

I never even heard of Three Sisters. What was that? I was a

Christy Stratton:

Wonderful show. Diane Cannon and, um, uh, AJ Langer Uhhuh and, um, Katherine Lea.

Michael Jamin:

And is

Christy Stratton:

It, And the gal who redhead that was played, um, Beth on News Radio. And I always forget her name. She did in Nty.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. I know who you. Right. And so,

Christy Stratton:

But I got on that show when I was, I was like, I say useless.

Michael Jamin:

People don't realize that. People don't realize this is all good cuz people don't realize that your first job, you're going to be useless. Most writers are gonna be useless. Did you recognize they were useless? Cuz sometimes young writers don't show, they don't realize they're useless and they talk anyway.

Christy Stratton:

They don't nowadays. It's that. But back then we, I was the only staff writer in the room. Now it's, it's all staff writers, Right? And like one senior person. Right. But back then it was very clear and the two story editors, they were like fed for yourself. I mean, and I can remember like, um, uh, pitching, it was finally my episode. I finally got an episode to write, and it was only in the back nine. And, uh, it was a disaster. It was awful. Right? And I, I wanted to punch, It was punch up time, but I wasn't very good at that. Like, now I love it and I have so much fun doing it, but back then, but I knew it at staying. So I, I pitched a joke that was like the, it, the punchline was like, it's good because of this and bad because of this.

Christy Stratton:

And the showrunner said, I don't get it. And I'm like, Oh, okay. And I tried to let it go, you know? Cause I wanted to try to see if I could get the room to kind of, you know, help me out here. Right? Um, and then she goes, No, no, no. Explain it to me. So I'm like, and then I like, as a tear rolls down. Yes. And I explain. And then she goes, Well that sounds like it's both good. And I just was like, Okay, you know, don't cry out loud. I'm just trying to just honestly like, hurt myself a little bit so I could my energies. But I, it, it wasn't because I was doing what I thought was good work and being unrecognized. It was, I didn't know what I was doing and no one helped me.

Michael Jamin:

. Yes. Yes. That's, it's such a, Okay. Cause I talk about that a lot. I, Okay, so then you, okay, you were

Christy Stratton:

Then I lucked out sometimes because I've been, been doing this so long and I had been here so long up to that point, you know, people, so, like for instance, um, uh, when I needed a new agent, uh, my friend John Westfall, who I did a a Groundlings class with, said, Hey, there were, he's at Sony. There was some agents in my office and I recommended you. And so I got with them and um, by sheer luck one of the guys, David Shane, who is still like, I will never, he's paid me a kindness that I will never be able to repay. So three sisters was a nightmare. Then David Shane, this guy who was in the Warner Brothers program with me, uh, had a meeting with Greg Daniels because Greg's or Dave's brother was like roommates with, with Greg Daniels or something in college, I'm not sure. Right. But Greg testing him, said, uh, to David, uh, who was the best person in your, in your Warner Brother's thing, seeing if he would say himself. He, Cause he told me this later and he, and he went, and then he said me and then he is like, she's from Texas. Cause it was the king of the hill. It was was good. Yeah. And so then, uh, it turned into like, who was this girl? And so then I got a, a meeting with Greg because of David's

Michael Jamin:

I's, see, that's nice. And so you fit in really what cuz King of the Hill obviously was took place in Texas. So they always were looking for more authenticity. They're looking for, they're always looking for writers from Texas. And so you jumped in, I think season six, Is that right?

Christy Stratton:

Or seven or seven? It was a, like, there were two other women, and I wanna say 15 men. Yeah. And I have to say everyone was so, uh, because I have been on stats where I've been treated very poorly. But it was all you guys, I mean, it wasn't like every, I just became the little sister. Like I became, and, and, and in a way that was, um, with kindness, but not inappropriate. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I felt like I was out, I was on my own for a while. Like, I'm just this in the sea. And I, I can remember pitching a little bit here and there, and I can remember you, uh, being very kind to me and telling me, um, that when pitching a joke, you know, don't go to that obvious place cuz everyone's gonna beat you. And you're right, I'm not fast. I'm not fast. And that you said, go to a place where no one else is gonna go. And so that is what I have done my whole career, because I am not that, and all you guys, all you guys could just do this so quickly and I can like, come up with ideas quickly. Like, ooh, what if this character, you know, is this or that the other thing. But I can't, the joke in forming it and having that punchline, you guys could all

Michael Jamin:

Do that. But, you know, Christy, that wasn't that advice. I struggled the same way I got that advice from Marsh McCall on just shoot me. So I was the same as you. I mean, we're all the same way. So Yeah.

Christy Stratton:

Yeah. But that was a really good place because that show had such great characters and everyone was super smart. Mm-hmm. , I got to kind of learn on the job in a way that, I mean, yes, I always felt like I was gonna be fired. And , I mean, I think I almost was at a point, but, but it was, I got to really learn from the best learn how to craft story because story was everything. And I don't know, I mean, you remember, we would spend weeks just freaking story and, um, that process and then you would kind of produce your episodes. Right. And that was really important to me at that time. And Garland Tesa, who I really learned a lot from. Yeah, great.

Christy Stratton:

The sea of, you know, Princeton Harbor, all of these people. And what I loved about Garland was she would, if someone made a reference to something that she didn't know, she would say, What does that mean? Or like, what, what, And I can remember like, Oh, that shows power when you admit to something you don't know. Right. And I, so I always did that. I always, Oh, I don't, what is that? Is that a And because I'm, it shows a lack of insecurity, I guess. Yes. And also there would be times when we would come back from an, an animatic and John Al Schuler would be like, Who, why did the an mades do this and that? And I knew it was because of something I said. And so I'd be like, Oh, sorry I, that was me. I thought that this would blah, blah, blah. And it would just a few, when you admit your mistakes, when you admit what you don't know, it diffuses things right away. It, to me is kind of a show of, of power, uh, in my opinion. And I love, that's good advice her because she was in the sea of, you know, all of these for a long time before, you know, I came along and, and whatnot. But

Michael Jamin:

She would always go. And I tried to have, I, she would always go like almost into a panic when it was time for her to write her script. And I, I don't know what I'm doing in Mc Garland, You're probably the best writer here. . She's so good. But she, but she had this, she had some of these insecurities as wells. Like I got nothing. And she'd come up with some great line or great scene. Um, yeah.

Christy Stratton:

Real good character stuff. Yeah. It was a good, like, I really, I, it was just such a funny group and boy, some lines and that characters were great. And, and even though every year I was like, I'm not coming back. Right. I would come back and I'm so grateful because I learned so much.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And you were there for a long time. And then, and then what came, what? And then the show was canceled and then what happened? What did you do after that?

Christy Stratton:

Well, remember it went down in the middle and that's when I did Hope and Faith in New York. So, Oh, I, they staffed out of LA and, but then it shot in New York. And to be able to be paid to write in New York City and be, you know, on my own and, and live in Tribeca, that opportunity, I, I'm so grateful for. Cause I'll never forget, I went, I was, that was my biggest year in interviews. I went out for a boy a bunch. I went a a, a bunch and I got one offer and that was to move to New York City, and, and do that show. And I, I had the time in my life.

Michael Jamin:

That's another thing people don't realize cuz they say, you know, do I have to move to Hollywood to work in Hollywood? Because they, they mention shows like that, that I've shot in New York. And I always say, But all the staffing is done in la They hire the LA writers and they fly him out there.

Christy Stratton:

Yeah. You know? Yeah. Mark Driscoll was out of New York, but they already knew him. Like, in other words, it wasn't like they did any, they just knew he was out there. So they staffed him. But, uh, yeah, no, you gotta be, you're absolutely right.

Michael Jamin:

And then in between all this, you've saw a bunch of pilots and stuff.

Christy Stratton:

Yes. Yeah. I've done pilots. And you know what, you say something and you said something to me then I think, but you hit this on your, uh, stuff too. My mistake is that I always would come up with pilots based on the stories that I wanted to tell. Right. I have this very, um, difficult relationship with my mother, or ooh, I, um, have this interesting relationship with my husband or I, or I get so excited and I can usually get a producer and a studio excited as well. But once you get to that buyer, if they're not buying that kind of show, I mean, they're, you're just, you wasted your time. There was one time I, when I did my web that turned out to be my web series. I pitched it as a show with, um, David Janari and NBC U and we went to NBC and I mean, the laughs were so much that I had to hold for laughs, which that doesn't happen to me all the time.

Christy Stratton:

I'm not this person that can just go into a room and just make everyone go fall. But I didn't that day. And I had a meeting with one of the gals later, one of the execs that was in the room, and she's like, Oh, it was late and, or it was kind of late in the year. And so we didn't have a lot of, you know, money left over. And she goes, It was one of the three pitches I heard all season that made me cry laughing, but it didn't. Wow. In fact, they spent a million dollars on it, bewitched. That never happened. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So people don't realize that as well. Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes about selling it at the right time of the year. If it's lit too late in the year, they're outta money. They've already bought something like it. There's a million reasons for them say no. You're getting them say yes is much harder. And,

Christy Stratton:

And honestly, all the passion in the world, all the connection in the world, all of that does not matter if it's not something that they are in the market

Michael Jamin:

For. Well then, then how do you go about developing shows now?

Christy Stratton:

Gosh. Well, , I really haven't taken my own advice. Um, a friend came to me with an idea and I'm like, this is great. And I wanna to, I wanna get back to broadcast because having been, uh, you do streamer stuff. I mean, there was this thing that I supervised that we sold in October of 2019, and they only passed this past January or February because the streamers make you do a second script, then they do a mini room where at that great deal that you made right on your, they're not gonna pay you that. They're gonna pay you a minimum. And just the number of weeks that you're working, not the three months of prep you're doing mm-hmm. , you get throw dollars for that, then you know, they're gonna sit on that for six more months. Right. And then you'll decide. And um, so after that, and because I think broadcast, there's a lot of broadcast comedies that I am loving. And so I'm like, you know what?

Michael Jamin:

There aren't, there aren't a lot of broadcast comedies. There's just not

Christy Stratton:

Well, but there are more now that I love than there have been in years past. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

So what do you, what do you loving on what comedies you like and then

Christy Stratton:

Broadcast? Oh my God, I love those. That ghosts, I love Abid Elementary. I loved pivoting my friend Liz Astro. Right. Uh, that show was great. And those shows just give me hope that like, oh, you know, you can do some really cool, fun stuff. Mm-hmm. , um, on broadcast. Cuz I'm, I'm done with like the, I just don't wanna cringe. I'm done cringing. You're done cringing. I wanna laugh. I wanna laugh. I wanna see, you know, relatable, interesting stories that are funny that I can just turn on and be like, Oh my gosh, this like, I, you know how when you really love a show, you can't tell what episodes are good or bad. Like you just love it. You wanna go into that world curb, I thought was, I know that's not broadcast, but I did love that this year. Um, uh, but I just, sometimes I just wanna, I just wanna laugh. I don't need to cringe anymore.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you're well time's running out for you to pitch network, uh, you know, isn't,

Christy Stratton:

We're going right in, we're literally meeting this guy who we're going right into the networks with no producer, no nothing. Because my agency got bought out by another agency. So now I'm with that agency and I switched managers because my other agent became a manager. So that all took some,

Michael Jamin:

And so they said, fine, we'll take it. Right. They, they managed, because sometimes you can't even do that. You pitch it right to this network, which is unusual. Are you going,

Christy Stratton:

I'm in a couple weeks. Yeah, we'll see

Michael Jamin:

, because most of the time, and so how that usually works is if the network buys it and we don't, there's like no right way of doing this, the network will buy it and if they want it, then they'll dump it off the offload and onto their sister branch, whatever studio that they own or what, you know, they're affiliated with. I mean, I guess that's how, that's how you plan to do it. Uh, to me that makes more sense, but I don't know why. The other way, usually you pitch to a studio and then the studio pitches in the network. I dunno why

Christy Stratton:

That is. Also, you gotta have that producer and all that takes so much time. And we were ready in July to start talking to people, but wow. We were told that like, oh no one's around in August, everyone is traveling. And I'm like, Ugh, okay. So then time just passed. And so once the dust settled and I'm, you know, with my agents and with my manager, they're like, You don't have time to, you know, or we did go to a couple producers and uh, uh, that were not interested.

Michael Jamin:

There were, Yeah, it's hard to even, it's hard to get. So as I say, it's the more pieces that you can put together. If you can get a producer attached then, or, and then then later a studio, you're walking in with more pieces. It helps to make, sell the show, but it's not necessary. But it can help sometimes , it depends where their deal is at.

Christy Stratton:

Uh, it's just kinda like, I'm gonna give this a go. This, I'm gonna give it a go. I'm gonna give it a go. And, and I actually have so many pieces of development that are just sitting waiting. Right. I have a script that, um, I have, there was a company called, um, Global Road that went bankrupt. So I wrote a script for them and now we've got the rights back and we actually have a piece of talent attached. But you know, now with a specs script, you've gotta have a director. You have to not just have the supporting actor but a lead actor. Like, you have to, you have to do everyone's job for them. So they're right. I have two pieces of, to fully written pilots sitting and waiting,

Michael Jamin:

Because usually it's very hard and Mark experience, it's very hard to get talent attached unless you're developing it for them. You know, like I, we've done it with comedians will develop show four comedian. But other than that, it's hard to get our experience hard. It's hard to get meaningful at talent attached, meaning talent that will move the needle. Some people say, Well, you know, my friend's, an actor doesn't, not your friend. We need someone famous . You know? Um, interesting. And so how, what is your day like even when you're not, what is your day? Like what narrowly when you're not on staff, what do you usually do? How, what's your writing schedule?

Christy Stratton:

Um, when, Well, I'll either work out or I'll get it. My, I do my puzzles. I do all my puzzles. I do like six puzzles.

Michael Jamin:

Like your, like crossword puzzles?

Christy Stratton:

Yeah. Well, I do crossword, I do the, I do the letter box. I do the wordle, I do the portal.

Michael Jamin:

What about word jumble? Are you good at the word jumble? You know, the kind that you find at the menus that like the ground round. Can you do that?

Christy Stratton:

? No.

Michael Jamin:

, you know, hot dog and you others hot dog. I found it

Christy Stratton:

. But I will do anything to delay it, to delay writing. But I, I, there's, I'm never, there's never not, there's never a time where I'm not working on something. Even the, even the specs that I are ready that have a, like, I have one that's got a director attaching two producers. I'm not done. Like I will look at it again or I will Ooh. Right. In fact, I got, I was inspired because of one of your things. You said something, it was about a moment landing. Right. And there was a moment in my, one of my scripts that I'm like, Oh, that I just kind of glossed over that. And so I took a minute and I figured out how to make it land. And then I'm like, Hey, you know, here's the new draft of this. Um, but I, so I will, I will then try to have some time to myself and um, and I'm kind of like, I'll write a little bit and if I've come up up with something good, I'll reward myself by like doing some, you know, web surfing.

Christy Stratton:

I don't like, I'm not this person that says I'm gonna work from this time to this time. I'm the best when I'm like doing something else. And then, ooh, that's how I sold that problem. Right, right. You're not thinking about it. I'll do a I'll, I'll have a project and I'll like a painting or something. Not, not like a painting, but like painting a wall. And I will be like, Ooh, this is how I can, you know, I can solve that. Now sometimes it's like, what am I, I have a 13 year old. So like, okay, what a, what are we gonna do for dinner? Cuz my husband bless his heart, does the football, the baseball, all of that.

Michael Jamin:

He's useless in the kitchen.

Christy Stratton:

, he's really not. Oh, ok. He's great. But, but meaning like, you know, I will, there's a lot of those things that fill my day too. And, but I'm not this person that just sits right and works. I just, I, I'm just not

Michael Jamin:

Now I'm, I'm jumping around, but then I'm gonna sound like an old foy, but how do you feel like writer's rooms have changed since you first got broken?

Christy Stratton:

Oh, well, they've changed a lot. A lot. I will say. I think it's good that like, when I came in as like either the only woman or the only low level writer, it took me a long time to do, get, do anything. Whereas nowadays, because they have, they come in with a lot more confidence. Um, I find and, and, and not, I'm not saying that, oh, everyone just is so confident. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I feel like people can get it quicker because they're more of them and they have more support with between each other. Do you

Michael Jamin:

Think they get it quicker? Cause I'm not, that's not how I see it. I see it, it is really, they haven't gotten it quicker, but they're just talking anyway, , because there's so much to, they have to learn. You know, It takes so much to learn. Like the first, even my, all of our careers, the first couple years, like you're saying, you're kind of useless and you're, it's not that people are shutting you up. It's, it's more, it's more like you don't know how to contribute.

Christy Stratton:

No. no. And, and bec it's very interesting too, as you know, there's a lot that, like, I never had anyone, my God, how do I say this? And there's a lot that you can't say. And I don't wanna, I don't wanna be, you know, it's just, you have to kind of make it used to be writer's rooms. You could say anything, have any kind of discussion. Mm-hmm. have any kind of, uh, uh, thing. And you can't really do that anymore. And, and for some good, good reasons and some, you know, I, I'm not, I'm not trying to, I mean, I'm glad that people aren't treated poorly anymore. I think that is, you know, um, I'm trying to get out sun here. Uh, that's good. Um, that, so that is a little bit, and you're, you know, I worked for someone recently, a dear friend who, cuz you gotta watch what you say because what if someone takes it the wrong way and, you know, puts it on Twitter.

Christy Stratton:

So, um, that's different. You know, that's different for better or for worse. And I'm not, I, I don't wanna, but Right. That's certainly different. Like there was a code, uh, in the writer's room. There was a code that you kept it, you, you kept everything in there unless you were, you know, sharing something with your spouse, . But, um, yeah. So that's, that's, yeah. Certainly different. And story has become so unimportant, I'm guessing to, to buyers or something. I don't know why, but it is like, story was so important to us coming up. And how much time you devoted to it? That it's surprising to me when, you know, people don't know it. I mean, again, it took me forever, but when it's so important and I feel like, um, it's kind of a lost heart . And I, I don't know. I don't know. So I, I, and it's, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So as a senior writer in the room, you're based, you feel like you're carrying a lot of the weight.

Christy Stratton:

Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. Sorry, I'm leaning down here. Um, and Yes. Yeah. Yes. And, and then look. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So what would you tell, what would you tell new writers or aspiring writers? What kind of advice would you give them?

Christy Stratton:

Gosh. Watch a lot of tv. Watch a lot of tv. Watch it kind of, um, like what I do with my son is I'll be like, Ooh, is this the, is this the midpoint? And I'll, I'll pause it. Or I'll be like, well, like if we're watching a movie, like, do you think that's an always lost? Do you think that's right? Like, just to, just to, I mean, not that I don't know that he would ever wanna be a writer, but just to kind of get into the rhythms because it's just, it's rhythm and surprise and, and it's just so hard because it's like, it's all trial and error. It's so all trial and error. And, and I would say to young writers just to, to write and, and see what sticks. Do your funny tweets stick? Do you know the, the essays you write, Does that stick? Just like, where, what is sticking?

Michael Jamin:

And, and how do you feel people are breaking in today?

Christy Stratton:

I really don't know. That's a good question. Cause I'm thinking of like, who are the young writers that we had on the flats? Which was that, which was the, um, the show that didn't go forward? Um, we, I, one came from my manager. We, it would come from friends. Mm-hmm. . Um, I'm trying to think if, if there's anyone that completely we didn't know. And that was maybe at the upper levels because then you read the little blurb. And I, you know, I wouldn't, especially with the younger writers, I don't read past 10 pages. Mm-hmm. , why not? Because they're terrible. Right? I'm sorry. Right. Young writers cannot write pilots. Don't put someone on the toilet on page one. Don't have anyone having sex in that first 10 pages. I will. I'm done. That's not to me, um, people talking in a coffee shop, it's, if it's about dating, I'm like, But this one young writer, uh, who I knew, which is, that's how she came to us, But it was like a comedy about, um, like a Titanic, like Ship Captain Uhhuh.

Christy Stratton:

But he was inept and it was told back in that time. And of course I read somebody, I'm like, Yes. Like, this person is funny. And you'd think, and I don't know how you are, but I, I always thought that, Oh, I wanna see if they can, if it's a high school show, you know, I want a high school sample, but I just want funny and good ideas. And the, the, the story editor we hired, would you, uh, uh, had on your staff Chandra Chandra? Yeah. Yes. Her first pages, I don't know if you read, but her first pages were a woman giving birth. Okay. And it's going through like, oh, it's, it's very dramatic. And then the baby drops on the floor. What? Or something like that. You realize that they, she's an actress and she is helping out at a, um, at a hospital where they pretend to have these procedures and that's her job.

Christy Stratton:

And I'm like, that, that was enough for me to give her meaning, because I thought that's a fun surprise. I did not expect it. It was different. Uh, you know, it looked that she could put a script together, you know, And, uh, and so that, that, But I won't reest 10 pages cuz they're not good. But here's what I wanna say to young writers. Yeah. It, everyone is not good. No one comes out good out of the gate. No one, I mean, I don't wanna say no one, but I, I I, I just be, don't be so don't be hard on yourself. Know it. And just keep writing. Cuz every time you do something, you will get better. I look back even on the stuff I did four or five years ago, and I'm like, Oh, I, you know, I, I, because you're the farther up you go and the more you have to lead people and get things out of them Yeah.

Christy Stratton:

That you just get better and faster. And I will say, like, I, it's very hard when someone pitched, like, I'm trying to be the person who entertains every pitch. But when, you know, because of your experience where that pitch is gonna end, uh, like in other words, you can see mm-hmm. because your experience and, but you don't wanna cut that person off. So I'll just, you know, I'll try to follow things down and like, and then once it gets there, then we move. So , I dunno, that was apo of nothing, but, um, uh, uh, yeah, I would say for young people, just put, get a camera out, shoot stuff. Doing my web series, um mm-hmm. Imy nominated and what be nominated web series than I shot. Mm-hmm. . Um, it, it, I learned a lot. You learn about how, like, I wanna be quick because I don't wanna take people's time on the internet.

Christy Stratton:

So how do I make these turns? How do I do that quickly? How do I, um, I it still needs an ending here. How do I do that? And you have whatever, five minutes or less, Right? Um, but I would just tell young writers to listen to people like you, like keep listening and learning and getting, you know, and have people read your scripts. Not, you know, I mean, your friends, have them read it, see what works, see what doesn't, and then just keep doing it and keep finding things that inspire you. Because even though, like I say, I complain that , like I'm never, it's never the thing that they want when I wanna give it to them. That said, I've worked pretty steadily for 20 years, Right? And that is because I do write things that are my story and I know how to, I know how to craft and I can do all that. And they, people can read a sample or, you know, uh, uh, oh, can you attach to, to do the, you know, supervise this, blah, blah, blah. So it, it's benefited me in some ways that I do that. However, I certainly would love to have that magic thing that says, Oh, hey, this is what Fox wants this week.

Michael Jamin:

That, that's one thing I say to young writers is like, they all like, how do I sell my show? And I'm like, learn how to write first. But everyone wants to skip that step. I mean, I'm not crazy. Right? You feel the same way?

Christy Stratton:

Well, I think once, um, like Lena Dunham did it, you know, people are like, I can be that. I can be that, that Wonder kin. Um, but yeah, I think that's never, I mean, you can do that, but then you don't have the skills that the other end of that. Um, you know, But, but I, I mean, more power to you nowadays. They put you with somebody like me and you right. To clean it up. Although I won't do it anymore unless I co-owned. Like, I won't do, I won't do that anymore.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamen. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to, for free, join my watch list every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamen.com/watchlist. All right. So Chris, you were talking about supervising projects from, from new writers. So please go tell us about that.

Christy Stratton:

Right. Or writers that, that need, you know, some kind of supervision. Um, one, I supervised a book author. Sorry, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get out the sun. . All right, here we go. Um, a book author who, uh, is a writer but has, you know, not experienced in, um, writing for television. And that one was a true supervising. Like, she wrote the script. She was very clear who all the characters were because they were in her book. And I also supervised a young writer for an animated project.

Michael Jamin:

And so you were attached basically as a show runner, right? And I just wanna make sure people understand. So that means you're basically, you're supervisor, you're kind of giving notes, you're not really doing the work, and you're not getting paid a lot of money for this.

Christy Stratton:

No, no, no, no.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Christy Stratton:

And then I was,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, but let, lemme continue. The only reason you're doing it is if the show goes to series, then you're attached as the show runner to

Christy Stratton:

Be the boss'. Someone who has tried to do that for many years. Um, it was, you know, of course I'm gonna make that, I'm gonna make that gamble. And that went so well. And I, and I get sent, especially with, uh, 20th animation, they'll send me stuff all the time. But usually it's, I don't spark to it. And I did spark to, uh, this one project, and, uh, it was a really funny, I mean, I, this is no disrespect to the young writer. The idea was terrific. Uh, the, the world. It was all great. So I just wanna say like that. However, when you are, um, you know, when you are new at it, you don't know like, all right, what do I need to put in a pitch? Well, here's, you know, you need to, nowadays you have to put that pilot story. Well, you know, and it's animated, so okay.

Christy Stratton:

It needs to have things that are visual. And so it was a lot of, uh, uh, and like I say, thank goodness she had a, a very clear voice. So this is, you know, like I say, but it was a, it was a lot. And then I had to kind of help her break that second script. And I got $0 for that zero us. Right. And, um, and then of course it was great to be able to, you know, run a room and see this great wonderful show come to life. And so I, I wanna say that I was so proud and, uh, I loved the stuff that we all did together, but at the end of it, I am, I'm not even like, I'm not, I have no piece of it. I have no, if they could shop that someplace else mm-hmm. , and if they wanted to, I, you know, I would be no part of it. If, if so they so desired. So I'm kind of like, I'm, I will do this. I will put in this work, but I will not do it without, I'm coming. I'm, I'm co-owning this with you. Right. You get, you get me, but I also get, you know, because I come up with ideas like, I like my ideas, but if I, if I'm gonna like your idea and I'm gonna sink into that idea, you're gonna have to,

Michael Jamin:

You know. Yeah. And people don't realize that because it's, I, we hear all the time, people, well, people say to me, I, I, you know, the studio loves my idea. I just need to get a showrunner attached. I'm like, if they love the idea, they would get a showrunner attached and they, they put up some money. But there's not, people don't understand the, the, the economics of it. It's really not, it's hard to make in the showrunners interest to invest all this time and money. Cause we don't get the money until it's, until it goes to the air. And so, you know, you're just, you're just assumed work on your own project. Why are you gonna take a risk on something, put all six months or a year's worth of work on something and not make money from it? Yeah. And so this

Christy Stratton:

Years,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Uh, that's, so that's, people don't qu I'm surprised they, you don't get something. Some, I mean, I don't

Christy Stratton:

Know. Oh, I got, I got it. Like, not the second script. The second script was I did for free. I mean, I didn't do it. She wrote it, but I mean, you know, with a guiding hand.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Christy Stratton:

But that we did six episodes and I was just paid that a weekly rate for whatever, that 10 to 12 weeks. But we ripped for three months.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That was for the mini room thing. Yeah.

Christy Stratton:

It's a mini room thing, which I hope we can, you know, this negotiation is gonna be real interesting.

Michael Jamin:

Uh, yeah. That's kind of the latest ex people don't know. I don't talk about mini rooms a lot because I don't have much experience in it. But why don't you tell everyone Oh, okay. What a mini room is.

Christy Stratton:

See, what it is, is you are writing the entire, uh, season. So it, it, once the mini room is ordered

Michael Jamin:

Well, but back up. Right? So you just sold your pitch to the network. The network says, We like this. Go on. Right?

Christy Stratton:

Okay. Oh, okay. So that was, let's say October, 2019. They, uh, and we got two offers, and that's why we got to do it. Writer guilded, which that's a whole other thing. Animation and writer guild, which we'd love to talk to you about. Yeah. But then, um, uh, so the script is written and turned in months, you know, whatever

Michael Jamin:

February, the pilot script, Right. Pilot script and the, and you got paid the person, that writer got paid to write a pilot script. Right.

Christy Stratton:

Okay. Um, then they say, Oh, we want a second script to just see if we like it. Now, the way, um, I'm gonna try to explain it as best I can. So with streamers, if it's not picked up, there is a, a lesser rate. You know how like a a half hour, uh, plays like $27,000, something like that. Right? But if your show is under a certain budget in the, uh, um, streaming sphere, then you don't have to pay that. You can pay this rate that's less than that. Well, of course our budget's less than that because we're not picked up. So all the scripts were paid this, this break that I didn't even know because I wrote the last script. I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's something's wrong with my, they've sent me not enough money. Yeah. Ok. That's for the second script. The supervisor gets no dollars.

Christy Stratton:

Now, I, that was during the agency action, so I don't know if my agents could have done like, I don't know what would've happened. Right. And I, believe me, I would've loved to have taken a, you know, cos story by or whatever. But you live and learn. You don't know until you're in it. You just dunno. Right. So, um, I did that for free and that took us to the summertime of 2020. Then the summer of 2020, Oh no, no, I'm sorry. They picked up that in the summer of 2020. We turned it in near the end of 2020. Then in May of 2021, they say, We wanna keep you guys working. We love this. We wanna give you a pre green light room. So then you're like, Okay, what, what? Because I didn't know either. And they wanted six more scripts to have a total of eight scripts so they can look at the whole season

Michael Jamin:

Before they decide to actually produce the show.

Christy Stratton:

Correct. Right.

Michael Jamin:

And because of that, they're just paying for scripts. And so most writers also have, most writers get paid a writing fee and on top of that, a producing fee, because we're Right, we do both. Right. But if there's, because we're not producing the show, they say, No, we're just gonna give you your writing fee.

Christy Stratton:

Well, not, it was a weekly minute, like writers go weekly, like minimum, maybe with a little bit more on it.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Christy Stratton:

But they said, um, but they made this deal like, Oh, if we don't pick it up by this point, then all of that is fresh cash. Like, they try to make it real.

Michael Jamin:

Um, but the truth is, you're doing the same amount of work that you would do on an ordinary show that's getting produced, uh, in pre-production, but you're getting paid a fraction. Uh, it's, it's just, it's kind of like an accounting trick they do to keep the cost

Christy Stratton:

Down. Yeah. I mean, so I, so we then, um, put a staff together and we had a long time, longer than I needed, but that's just what they wanted. And well, luckily we got all these wonderful people and it was, so was Zoom, which I hope I never have to do again if I'm being really honest. Um, and um, uh, so we would just, you know, like we knew where we, so we just would break story. And like we were a staff. I tried to do a second room cuz I love small rooms. I think it is just so much better for everyone when you do small rooms.

Michael Jamin:

But you did, you have an ex but you didn't have anybody who's experienced in your staff, did

Christy Stratton:

You? Um, yeah. Yes, some, but, but it was kinda like, and I learned this, like, I know what I want when I send people, Okay. Think of story ideas. Let's just say I know what I submitted. Like for Bless the Hearts, I would submit to Emily Spy who ran that show. I would submit to her like, here's an idea. They, there's the president's physical fitness test that Violet has to take. And then I would do a possible, um, like scenario on where that leads to like a paragraph mm-hmm. . Um, but because these writers that I hired who I thought were wonderful, all had so many ideas. So this was, this is an embarrassment of riches. This is not any sort of a a a dis but it would just be just ideas and ideas and ideas and ideas. And so I, you know, it's hard to kind of explain, well, this is what I want, and then I'm like, do I sound like I'm an, you know, um, a bad person?

Christy Stratton:

But, but, um, so you, you, it just takes time to get in a groove and when you have 10 weeks. Yeah. Like, they're not gonna know what, how, what, how to present it and how, how to curate which ones that we're both gonna like, Cause they're dealing with two people now. Right. They're not just dealing with me and I get to ultimately decide, Oh no, um, it's, it's, you know, her show and I am there to kind of facilitate and help and do what I can. Um, uh, so we ended up not doing that as, as much as, and, and we did would send off a, uh, hey, write this scene and it would come back wonderful. Right. Um, but um, then at the end of it, you send it off and they were like, Oh, which three do you want people to? Were like, Well, you know, I let her decide that. And she kind of got the last, you know, um, go through of whatever she wanted. And then was October. And thank goodness I had another show to jump on. And then they didn't, they didn't pass us until like the following January. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

That's how it goes.

Christy Stratton:

Yeah. And, and we thought because we had such, our, our execs were so enthusiastic and so great and, and we were sure that it was gonna go. But what was so interesting was because all of that time it took to do that, which was, you know, however, two years, um, their, they were noticing it cause it was Amazon. They were noticing that the animation that was doing well for them was more genre animation. Mm-hmm. . So they're like, Well, you're gonna see we're gonna pick up a comedy, but, but you know, after that it's just gonna be genre. So it was just kind of like, ugh. Cause we did this beautiful, you know, funny, wonderful thing and

Michael Jamin:

Right. So you're also at the whim of whatever's wor whatever hits what working they're gonna wanna copy. And if, if whatever's not working, you're fo that's, if you're like that, you're, you're kind of screwed. And, and what people would also don't realize is that the executives overseeing your show, they're always very enthusiastic, but they're usually not the decision maker. the boss. The boss has a different opinion. And so they always tell you they're that, Oh, we're so excited about this show. We're all talking about this show. Like, who's we just the people who are on that level. But you know, the, so that's another, that's another obstacle.

Christy Stratton:

And the comedy they did pick up was like Natasha Leone and, uh, Maya Rudolph, they're producing it. They're starring in it. And it's like, we can't compete with that, even though I think on the page, who knows? But Right. That was just like, Oh god. Yeah. You know,

Michael Jamin:

It's a hard business. Yeah. And so what, what is next for you? What is next for you? What do you, you know, other than this pitch pitching

Christy Stratton:

This thing, I'm pitching, uh, this ridiculous thing, then I've got these two scripts I'm sitting on. One has a director and, and two producers attached. The other one has a, uh, uh, piece of, uh, acting talent attached that we're, we're just looking and waiting because people don't want to, you know, there, it's a weird buying time. But at the same time, something else that sucks about the streamers is because there's only eight episodes, Mindy Kaling can do every single show made because only doing eight episodes, you can do four shows a year. Yeah, right. Do all the shows. Right. And, and because these buyers, whatever is going on, they just wanna, they want the big people. They want and they, and which, whatever. I get it. It's hard to have a hit. It's hard. So you wanna bank on those same people and guess what?

Christy Stratton:

Those same people will be available because they're only doing eight episodes of this show. Right. So anyway, so I'm sitting on these two waiting for, um, uh, we're trying to get a director with a one I wrote a screenplay and, um, my new manage, oh, it's now, um, to an actress. Um, because we tried to go to producers, but that didn't work. Comedies in movies, it's just hard. It's mm-hmm. hard. And I'm like, I, I, I just love comedy. I, that's what I do. That's what I, I wish I could write a procedural or a drama. And those are all valid and great things. I can't do that , I can't do that. I can't write, um, murder, comedy murders, like I can't, or a, a like a, um, mystery, the comedy mystery. And I'm like, Great. I think that's cool as hell. And when I see it, I get into it. I love it, but I like a straight up comedy and I, I'm like, and it doesn't cost that much, but yet, anyway, so I've got those things. Mm-hmm. and, you know, and then I'll, I'll, So I'm, it's a little bit of kind of waiting and then, and then trying to see, there's staffing opportunities that, um, that come up. And cuz I know people, so it's like, well, what are their needs? And

Michael Jamin:

Interesting,

Christy Stratton:

Like, I love, I love being on a staff. I love that whole thing. I, I just hope it's not on,

Michael Jamin:

On Zoom, if you can get those jobs. Yeah. Christie Stratton, I wanted we're, we're pretty much at the end of our time here, but thank you. I, this was a, a very interesting talk. I really, I, I've enjoyed this. I definitely Oh good. I definitely enjoy this. So, uh, is there anything else you wanna tell people who are listening? Is there anything you wanna, one last parting thing, Should they follow you somewhere especially?

Christy Stratton:

Oh, yeah. Well, I'm on Twitter and, but I don't tweet a lot, but I'm on Instagram at Christy Stratton, but I'm on, I'm Christy s man on Twitter for whatever reason. But here's another thing. Young writers. Yeah, new writers. It's a tough time coming outta Covid with all the shakeups at all, the, you know, all the streamers and everyone, It is a weirdest hail time right now anyway, so just keep doing your things. Keep whatever little creative outlet that you can do. And with the internet, my gosh, you can do anything. Yeah. And just keep doing that because it's, it's a hard time because of all that, but because these staff, and there's not any money, there's more low level writers than there are upper level mm-hmm. , which wasn't how, when we came up. So that's a good thing. And, and you know, if you're good and someone's gonna, you're gonna get someone's attention and then they, they'll know somebody and then they know somebody. And all the time, like, I still, uh, uh, have friends that I met 20 years ago with the Groundlings or whatever, and then that will, they'll point me in the right direction for something. Or, you know, Oh, guess what? This person I did a pilot for, Right? It's now the head of 20th television or whatever. You just, it just take all of that takes time.

Michael Jamin:

Right. But you gotta be good. This is what I heard, but you just said you have to be good and it really helps to be in LA because this is where the fish swim.

Christy Stratton:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. But you don't have to be good right away.

Michael Jamin:

Right. You don't have to be good right away, but you have to work

Christy Stratton:

On Yes. You have to, As long as every year you can be like, Okay, here's how I've improved this year. Here's how I've moved forward. Just even a little bit, Right? Like, but, and oh, one more thing. Yeah. Oh my God, this is probably the most important thing of all these two hours we've been talking. Be flexible. Take notes. Don't, don't be like, Well, this is what this guy says. Or, Oh, well this is what I, I put that in there because B, B B, B B, if someone's gonna take time to read your script, I don't care if it's, I don't care who it is, and it's the hardest thing, and I still do it. When my husband reads my stuff, I'll be like, Well, that's why I, I'll bark at him. Right. But don't just thank you. Oh, I'll, I'll think that. And someone may give you notes that completely up in your script and just, you kind of put it away, Have a glass of wine, watch British baking, let it kind of meld in whatever. And then like, Okay, is this person that took this advice or whatever, do, will this change it in a good way? Am I ready to do that? But, but while you're getting notes to be nothing but great. Yes. No, I think that's a great idea. Or, Oh, just be flexible. Be

Michael Jamin:

Open

Christy Stratton:

Notes. Be open, because it, you don't, you're not gonna be the, you're not the ultimate. You don't know everything. And it's so hard. Cause when I get notes, I'll be like, Oh yeah, that is better than what I have. Like, Oh yeah. That is even now's and gracious about it.

Michael Jamin:

Christy Strat, thank you so much for, for joining us and for people listening. Thank you. Until next week, uh, get on my newsletter. My free newsletter goes every Friday. Phil sends it out. Sign up, go to michael jamin.com/watch list for more tips. And thank you again, Chris. You'll follow her on Instagram and Twitter everywhere you could find, uh, Christy Stratton's. Were sold. All right. Thanks again everyone. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamon. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear it. Today's subject for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Michael Jamin, writer. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Phil Hudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

This week, we have our first Podcast guest, Writer/Director Rob Cohen. Rob has written and directed for shows like The Simpsons, Wonder Years, The Ben Stiller Show, MAD TV, SNL, Just Shoot Me, Maron, Big Bang Theory & Black-ish. Join Michael Jamin and Rob Cohen as they discuss their careers, breaking in, and what it means to have a long, fruitful career in Hollywood.

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

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Rob Cohen on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0169712/

Rob Cohen:

Just shoot Me was in the nineties. And if you said NBC in the nineties had so many comedies, some were good, and some were terrible. But now, if you look at NBC, are they doing any comedies? Like maybe two?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. So, so it's the same place, but it's the, the tide is clear. So for somebody to aspire to working on wacky old-timey NBC comedies, it's very foolish. However, if they are a self starter and, and determine what their roadmap is, nobody will stop them. You can't guarantee success, but at least you've tried it and you might be successful trying it and pursue what you like.

Michael Jamin:

Right. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. My name is Michael Jamin and Phil is not here with us today, but I have a special guest. This is our first time ever having a guest on, on our podcast. And I'm absolutely thrilled that it's, you know, in Hollywood. People say this is my good friend, My, but it's true. Rob, you're my good friend and thank you.

Rob Cohen:

You're my good

Michael Jamin:

Friend. Yeah. . And so it's nice to actually have a good friend kick off my guest on the show. So let me introduce you. This is Rob Cohen, Writer, Director, and I'm gonna scroll through some of your credits so people know who you are. And and I'm sorry, I'm, I'm only gonna do some of the highlights that I think I'm gonna leave out. Probably the someone's I, because you had, Rob has a huge resume and you're a writer and a director, but you started and

Rob Cohen:

Some of it is good.

Michael Jamin:

And for, for those of you wanna make a, a visualization. Rob also worked on one of your early jobs was The Simpsons and the character of Millhouse was Rob modeled after him. So Rob is picture Millhouse now older and sadder. So, and also Rob's Canadian. So I wanna talk about how a Canadian breaks into the business. Sure. The whole language barrier, how you learned English. Right. I wanna learn how we

Rob Cohen:

Figured out Yeah. How the machines work so we could Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I know you drove a dog sled growing up and now, now you drive a car. So stuff like that. Thank you.

Rob Cohen:

Thank You

Michael Jamin:

Thank you. So let's begin. Rob's, I guess your first staff job, I guess was the Naked Truth, your big one?

Rob Cohen:

No, my very first staff job full time was the Ben Stiller show.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, right. Will you go back even further than that? Bend Stiller. Right. And you also did Mad tv. Hold on. Your credits are crazy good. Like you have a huge list of credits. Naked Truth work with me, I met you on, well I think I knew you before that, but just shoot me work. You work together, right? Bet, bet. Midler show. Yes. According to Jim. Mm-Hmm. , according to your credits, you are on, According to Jim. Right. the Jamie Kennedy experiment. Was that a show or an experiment? Rob?

Rob Cohen:

That was an experiment. That became a show on the wv.

Michael Jamin:

See Dots? I don't know what that is. It's

Rob Cohen:

A amazing, That was a pilot for nbc. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, Pilot. How did you get that in there? Father of the Pride? You remember that, that animated show American Dad? I've heard of that one. Yep. Big Bang Theory. Heard of that one. Mm-Hmm. , 20 Good Years. Mm-Hmm. , our friend Marsh McCall created that show. Mm-Hmm. Emily's reasons why not. Mm-Hmm. fascinating.

Rob Cohen:

You're really combing through all the

Michael Jamin:

I'm on IMDB.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah, of course.

Michael Jamin:

There's more Life In Times of Tim, which was a riot that, that animated show Maron, which we brought you back. We hired you to be a writer and director on that. We're gonna talk about that. Yeah, sure. Lady Dynamite with our friend Pam Brady. Mm-Hmm. I don't know companies. I don't, I don't know. So I'm skipping over the, But you also have your own show called Hanging with Dr. Z. We're gonna talk about that. And then, But directing credits are also crazy. I mean, really I'm all them. Well, well you're, you're, you're good looking. Thanks. Let's go over some of them. Sure. Obviously you did a, you did a bunch of Marons. Yeah. Mystery Science Theater, 3000. You did some Lady Dynamites. Yeah. You did Blackish. Mm-Hmm. Stand Against Evil, Speechless. Bless this Mess. Superstore, you directed mm-hmm. The Goldbergs, you directed. Mm-Hmm. Interesting. told that Mo You are, And then most recently, somebody somewhere, which I, I talk about that a lot cause I love the pilot of that. And I just love that show. You directed five episodes of that

Rob Cohen:

Damn right. Seven,

Michael Jamin:

Seven. We have to update your IMDB. Yeah,

Rob Cohen:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Let's start at the beginning. Cuz a lot of people ask me this and I have no answer. How does a Canadian start work in this country? Like, there are laws

Rob Cohen:

There are laws and I mean, I know that Americans are all about purity. So I will say that Canadians, they're almost like Americans. It's almost like we live next door to you guys,

Michael Jamin:

South or north of us.

Rob Cohen:

I, I don't know, , I don't know. But I didn't have any aspirations to get into showbiz or even come to the United States. So I didn't know that it was a, it was all a fluke. The whole thing was a fluke. I can certainly condense the journey.

Michael Jamin:

Let's hear it.

Rob Cohen:

The fast version is I was a bit of a scam as a young man and was encouraged to live on my own at a young age. And so I lived on my own and I was just a complete screw up. And I grew up in Calgary and had no future whatsoever.

Michael Jamin:

You were encouraged to live on your own at what age?

Rob Cohen:

15.

Michael Jamin:

Why? You were, you were a handful for your parents.

Rob Cohen:

I was a handful because my dad had gotten remarried and the mix was not the greatest mix. So there were two opinions on how things should work in that situation. I was of one opinion and

Michael Jamin:

The

Rob Cohen:

Back was of another.

Michael Jamin:

But looking back on it, do you realize, Do, are you, do you feel like you were wrong as a 15 year old? Or do you like No, I was right.

Rob Cohen:

You were right. I was absolutely right. Interesting. Absolutely. Right. and so I just, You,

Michael Jamin:

You were on your own at 15, Dude, I, I couldn't imagine.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. I had an apartment. I, I mean, it's not like I suddenly got, was living on my own and figured everything out. I was still a disaster. I just had my own apartment and I was so stupid that for the first month I was like, Oh, this is awesome. My party pad. And I had all my buddies over and we were just doing stupid things. And then I got the, basically realized I had to pay rent and gas and electric. And I was like, Oh my God. Like, I actually have to pay these bills to live here. And I was delivering pizzas at night, and that was certainly,

Michael Jamin:

You're gonna school during the day and delivering pizza.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah, I delivered pizzas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was a comp, I was a disaster. I had a 75 Dodge Dart that I would deliver pizzas in whatever the weather was and would like steal gasoline from car lots. So I could put gas in my car to deliver pizzas. I was a complete idiot.

Michael Jamin:

Have you tried pitching this as a show?

Rob Cohen:

No. it's just, it's so, it's, it's interesting in hindsight, but it's also, you know, you could call it, you know, like it's like Don portrait of a team runaway. It's like Rob portrait of a complete disaster because every choice I made was wrong. That's

Michael Jamin:

Mind's a good show.

Rob Cohen:

. Well, maybe at some point, but I think I sold a pilot once about my parents' weird divorce and how they lived a block away from each other, but had the same address through it, some flute. But anyways, I was just drifting around for a while, just doing nothing. And sort of speeding up to your question. My cousin lived here in LA in the Valley, and I, because I was doing nothing in Calgary and had, I was not gonna college, I did not have enough credits or interest to go to university. And just got my car one day and left my apartment in Calgary and just threw a bunch of stuff in the car and drove down here to LA to visit my cousin who lived in Vaneyes. And again, like speeding through the boring stuff. I was just gonna visit for a couple days and crash on his couch.

Rob Cohen:

And I met this girl that he was going to school with, and we, she and I hit it off and I'm like, I'll stay another week mm-hmm. and then I'll stay another week. And then I sort of had this, if you want to use the word epiphany incorrectly realized like, I could go back to Calgary and do nothing, or I could stay here and do nothing with this girl. So I decided to like stick around for an you know, excuse me, undetermined amount of time. And then realized I'm kind of living here. But I was, I lived here illegally for many years.

Michael Jamin:

And you were like 17.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

How old were you? And you were living here illegally?

Rob Cohen:

Yes. For many years. Interesting.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And, but you were working, How did you work then?

Rob Cohen:

I worked under the table. I got a bunch of jobs. I think the statute of limitations is over, but I worked at different restaurants and Right. The, I was a security guard at a mall. I sold shoes, I fixed yogurt machines.

Michael Jamin:

You know, I worked at a yogurt store. I wonder if you fixed Humphrey yogurt.

Rob Cohen:

You fix, did you fix them? I worked at a place called I can't believe it's Yogurt. And then they opened up a second store that said, Yes, it's yogurt . So they basically, they opened up a store that answered a question nobody was asking. No. Was asking . Yeah. And I still remember how to, you know, you unscrew those four bolts and you pull out the assembly and you take the O-rings off and you clean them and then you lu the O-rings and then you put the thing back in. But it was all the reality was because I looked and mostly sounded like an American people never asked. And this was pre nine 11 and pre all that stuff. And they just thought I was American. And no, not one person asked me for any validating id. Wow. And I, I made up a fake social security number and got hired and they, a lot of 'em just paid me cash under the table.

Michael Jamin:

This is perfect. Yeah. Now, and then at some point, well, but maybe I'll skip. So how did you, how did this whole Hollywood thing happen? When did you decide, how did that, when did you decide you wanted to be a, I guess, a writer? Right.

Rob Cohen:

Well, I never decided it. I, I, it's such a boring story and I may actually do it as a pilot, but cutting to the chase, I was delivering food for a, a deli that is no longer in business in LA Right. And had a lot of clientele that were in show business. And this one guy took a liking to me and basically said, you know, if you ever wanna get outta the exciting world of late night sandwich delivery, gimme a call. We need PAs. And I didn't know what a PA was. And he explained what it was. So I, I, this is how dope I was. I was like, Yeah, sure. So I'll, I called him up and went over to the Fox lot and he explained what a PA was Uhhuh and I thought it paid more than working at this

Michael Jamin:

Deli. And he, he was a producer. What was

Rob Cohen:

He? Producer? for, I mean, he's still a producer, but producer of The Simpsons, Tracy Elman show. Oh, okay. This, he's an amazing guy named Richards guy who I, I literally owe everything to. And he hired me because I was nice to him when I would deliver food as a PA on the Trace Elman Show. And that was the very first time I was exposed to anything in show business whatsoever. And I was assigned to the writer's room, so I was in charge of getting them food and cleaning up. And And that's a queen. Yeah. And it was an amazing writer's room. And that was it. That was the first exposure to it.

Michael Jamin:

And then when did you decide you wanna start? When did you start writing?

Rob Cohen:

I didn't start writing. I was there for the last two seasons of the Tracy Elman Show. And then on the last season I didn't even, I still don't really know how to type. I started hunt and peck, but I would stay late at night. And they were, it was a great writer's room and they were really nice to me. And I just thought these guys seemed to be having fun. And one night they were stuck on a joke and that meant they were sticking around, which meant I had to stick around because I had to clean up after them. And I just decided like, I'm gonna write down a couple options for this joke. And sort of meekly slipped it to one of the writers, this guy Mark Flanigan, who was an incredible, and I'm like, you know, I don't mean to step on eight toes, but I just, I wanna go home.

Rob Cohen:

Ideas. Yeah. And that was literally, I wanna go home. And he, they used one of the jokes. And so I got to go home . And then I was like, Okay, well I'll try this again. So I, I started to very quietly with months in between side sort of pitch ideas. And then I went in at night after work and Red Scripts and sort of taught myself how a script is visually structured. Right. And then on the computer would type fake scripts just to physically format a script. And then, because it was a sketch show, I had this idea for a sketch and I just typed it up and it took like a month for me to type up a six page sketch cuz I was terrified. Right. And they ended up buying it and Wow. It was like $1,600. And I got an agent at caa, but I was still a pa at the Tracy Elman show. Right. And, and then I thought, again, showing my lack of planning for my life it was like, this writing things seems kind of fun, like maybe I'll try it. And that was, that was when I had the first inkling that perhaps that was something I may want to try to pursue. But there was no guarantee of success.

Michael Jamin:

And then you just continued writing specs scripts and your agents started submitting you places.

Rob Cohen:

I wrote a bunch of spec stuff and then by that point to Tracy Mond show was canceled and they switched. It was the same production company as The Simpsons, which was just starting. So they switched everybody over to The Simpsons. And then because everybody there was so great when The Simpsons took off, you know, it just was huge outta the gate. They had all these weird assignments that they needed help with. Like can you come up with 50 grant calls for Bart? Can you come up with a promo for this? Do the Bartman video that's gonna be on mtv. And I'm actually looking, the, my very first check sort of professional check over on the wall was for writing the intro that Bart Simpson was gonna say on MTV for the Do the Bartman video that had Michael Jackson on it. Right.

Rob Cohen:

So I got $300 and then just started sort of you know, writing weird things. And the, the first actual job that I got was I was recommended by one of the writers to these producers named Smith Heian. Mm-Hmm. And they were doing a 50th anniversary Bugs Bunny special for CBS. And they needed a writer that knew a lot of stuff about Bugs Bunny. So I had a meeting with them, they hired me for $2,600 to write this whole special, And that was like my first professionally produced credit of something that was, I, I was involved in from the beginning to the end. Right. But I'm still a pa

Michael Jamin:

And none of this see, people ask me like, Well, do I have to move to Hollywood to work in Hollywood? And

Rob Cohen:

Like, Right.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, this wouldn't happen if you were not in Hollywood.

Rob Cohen:

Oh yeah. And it was, everybody says this, but it was absolutely a different time. And I also think that because it was the late eighties, early nineties and things were, there were way more jobs. And also because sketch shows were so popular, they needed people needed little bits. And also being around The Simpsons from the beginning, it was great like that. The Do the Bartman thing I sweated over that for a week and it was probably four sentences. Right. and I would write like top 10 lists for Letterman and try to send them in like naively thinking here's, here's 20 top 10 lists, Maybe you guys will like them. And I was just, I would stay there late at night in the office on the Fox up by myself with, you know, feral cats giving birth under the trailer just writing weird stuff and kind of figuring out the job as I was doing it.

Michael Jamin:

And then how did you get the Ben Stiller Jo Show?

Rob Cohen:

This has gotta be also boring.

Michael Jamin:

I think it's fascinating.

Rob Cohen:

Well, the way I got the Stiller show was The Simpsons had taken off and I was still working for Gracie. And I had an idea for an episode and it was season two of The Simpsons. And so I went and just wrote this episode on spec on my own. And it was basically a diehard parody cuz Diehard had come out just like a couple years before that about the power plant where Homer works getting taken over and he inadvertently becomes a hero and saves a power plant. Mm-Hmm. . So I wrote this whole spec, I turned it into Sam Simon who was running the show and was just great and he loved it. But what I was told sort of off the record is at that time, Gracie Films had a rule where they could not hire writers that were already working for the company in another capacity.

Rob Cohen:

It was like this weird archaic rule. So being a Ding Don I was like, Oh yeah, well screw that. I quit. So I walked over to the main bungalow and spoke to Richard Sky and I was like, You know what? I think that rule's terrible and Sam likes my script and I just think I'm gonna try this writing thing. And, and I quit. And they're like, Well, we're sorry to have you go. And then as I was walking back across the parking lot to get my stuff, Sam grabbed me and he is like, I heard you quit. And I said, Yes. And he goes, Well now you don't work here anymore, so now we can hire you, but we can't use your idea because you pitched it to us when you're an employee. And I was like, That's weird. But cutting to the chase.

Rob Cohen:

They took me upstairs to the writer's room and they had an index card that just says Homer invents a drink and most deals it. And so they said, We would like you, we loved your script and you've been here since the beginning. Like, we'd love you to write an episode. And I was like, Absolutely. I was freaking out. And I said, like a, an arrogant idiot. I was like, But I wanna be involved in the entire process. Cause I knew the process cuz I was working on the show. And they're like, You got it. And so we broke the whole story and it ended up being the episode flaming mos

Michael Jamin:

Flaming. I know you wrote Flaming Mo. Wow.

Rob Cohen:

So I wrote Flaming Moose, and then time went by and, and it got produced and it was on the air. And the way that I got the Stiller show was I was doing punch up on this terrible movie for Morgan Creek and met this other writer there named Jeff Khan. And Jeff and I hit it off and he's like, Hey, they're shooting this weird pilot at my apartment, you wanna go check it out? And I was like, Sure. So we went over and it was the pilot for the Ben Stiller show. Mm-Hmm. . And Ben was there and he and I hit it off and he was asking what I'd worked on and I said, this episode that had just come out for The Simpsons called Flaming Mos. And he was like, I love Flaming Moes, you wrote that. So he said, if his pilot ever became a show, he would love to hire me because we, he and I had so many similar references in our life. We love disaster movies and all this other stuff. So we really clicked. And then a couple months later, the show got picked up and he called me and said, I wanna hire you. And that was my first staff job.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. What it

Rob Cohen:

Entail? What it entail. I

Michael Jamin:

Not it is, No, I think it's so cool. I I've known you all these years. I didn't even know that dude.

Rob Cohen:

And then it's all flukes. It's all flukes,

Michael Jamin:

It's all Yeah. But it's also you putting yourself out there and I don't know. That's amazing.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. I mean, I'm very fortunate these flukes happened because, But

Michael Jamin:

You also Yeah. I hadn't but you put yourself in a position to have these flu happen too. Yeah. And

Rob Cohen:

You were put if I hadn't, but I was prepared. But if I hadn't met Jeff that day and we hadn't gone to his apartment, I would not have met Ben and that wouldn't have led to the show. Right. Which

Michael Jamin:

Led. But you're also, I mean, honestly, and I mean this in a compliment, like you're one of the be better connected, more most connected writers. I know, you know, a lot of people like, you know, you're friend, you're a friendly guy, you, you know, a lot of people I guess maybe cuz you leave your house

Rob Cohen:

No, but you're, you're connected, you know, a lot of people, it's just,

Michael Jamin:

It's just I know, but I'm always, I'm always surprised by who you like you seem to know more people .

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. But it's only because I just think I hate this term, but I think the alt comedy scene was starting when you and I were starting off in LA Yeah. And because, especially because of the Stiller show, that whole crew were so important. Like Janine and David Cross and all those guys were so important to the alt comedy scene. And then that's where Jack Black and Tenacious D started and all these other people Will Ferrell. Like they were all coming up that way. I just think it was timing of an, an era that was happening. So were

Michael Jamin:

Just, Were you involved in that? Like did you do like, what do you mean? Did you go to those shows and stuff? Like I

Rob Cohen:

Oh yeah. The Diamond Club. Yeah. I mean it was, that was the whole scene. Like big intel books, the Diamond Club. I

Michael Jamin:

Didn't even know about it back then.

Rob Cohen:

Really? Oh my God. Yeah. That was where everybody hung out. Like I even performed in some of those dopey shows just because it was, it was a group of friends that were not famous yet that we're just doing these weird shows at this place, The Diamond Club in Hollywood, which is gone mm-hmm. . And you could tell it was like, you know, Jack and Kyle, you knew they were amazing, but they were not tenacious to you yet. Right. And, and Will was not Will Fiery yet. He was a guy from you, the Groundlings and people were just, you know, Janine and David and Pat Oswald and all these guys that were just

Michael Jamin:

Right. So let's talk about those guys. So they were, you know, these are people putting themselves out there. It's not like Absolutely. They're not saying, Hey, I put me in my movie. They're just putting themselves out there. They're doing shows. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's just how you do it. And so is they're not asking to start at the top, they're starting at the bottom.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. Well I think that's a great point. And I think using the, the Diamond Club shows, The Diamond Club was this horrible, horrible dumpy club. A club is a loose term that was owned by one of the the Stray Cat was it Stray Cats?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know the band. The

Rob Cohen:

Band The Stray Cats. Yeah. It was like Slim Jim Phantom, I think was the guy who owned the club. Okay. So it was this horrible, decrepit theater that was near LaBrea and Hollywood and it was kind of a you can do anything you want kind of place because it was just soaked in like old piss smell and booze. But the good thing was a lot of friends of ours, like this friend CJ Arabia, started to put these shows together. And so she would ask everybody in our little group that all hung out and travel together and dated each other and whatever. It's like, hey, we can do these shows at the Diamond Club. And I'm not a performer, but it would be like, we would build entire sets out of corrugated cardboard and paint them because the Diamond Club didn't care. They just wanted to sell alcohol to people that came to the shows . So there would be like, you know, shows where you look now at the lineup, you're like, Holy crap, that's the, that's like a lineup of insane comedy hitters. Right. But at the time they were not, they were just young weirdos.

Michael Jamin:

It's so, because you know, I moved here in 92, I lived right in West Hollywood. I lived right on the corner and I'm just, it's amazed how like we just didn't know each other then, you know? Yeah,

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. But you and I actually in Seavert sort of weirdly intersected with the Wonder years unbeknownst to us.

Michael Jamin:

I well sever wrote on that. I didn't he sold number years.

Rob Cohen:

No, but you guys, and you're credited on my episode.

Michael Jamin:

I'm no, I I didn't work in the Wonder Years. Si sold ans sold an episode of Freelance episode of Wonder Years, my partner because

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. But it's so weird because on screen, it's you two and me credited on the episode. I pitched to Bob Brush. He tried to rip

Michael Jamin:

Up. Not me, dude. I don't have any credits on Wonder Years. You gotta, I Oh,

Rob Cohen:

You know, Seavert and his old partner?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, his old partner. Yeah. Yes.

Rob Cohen:

Sorry. It was Sivert and his previous partner.

Michael Jamin:

I'm surprised he got credit though. Okay.

Rob Cohen:

Wow. Wow. The whole thing was Bob Brush was just stealing ideas left and right. But wow. That's interesting. But that's Sivert

Michael Jamin:

And I But you never wanted to I'm well, I'm sorry I cut you off. Go

Rob Cohen:

Ahead. No, no. I was gonna say, I didn't know you were Seavert yet. Right. But on that episode, Seavert and I share credit even though at the time we were complete strangers. And then I really met him when I met you on just shoot

Michael Jamin:

Me. Right, Right. Now, did you, you never wanted to perform, I mean, it's funny cause you have performed but you never wanted to.

Rob Cohen:

I have performed reluctantly. I hate it. And it was like, whether the Diamond Club show or if I've been like an emergency fill in at the Growlings, it's, before I do it, I'm like, Hey, this is cool. It's gonna like sharpen my brain and it's gonna be a great thing. Just jump off the cliff and try. And then in the middle of it I'm soaked in sweat and hate myself. And then at the end I, I am so relieved it's over and I absolutely loathe it. I wait,

Michael Jamin:

I'm just shoot me. I remember we had you play the dirty bus. The dirty bus Boy was your character. Dirty Dirty bus, and you hit it outta the park.

Rob Cohen:

. Well, all I had to do is sort of wiggle my eyes. Lasciviously while it was clear the older waitress and I were messing around.

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God.

Rob Cohen:

Cause Andy called me in and said, Can you, He's done that so many times where it's like when he had True Jackson, he's like we need somebody to be the hobo king. Can you be a paramount an hour? I'm like, .

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Rob Cohen:

But it's not. Cuz I love it. I, I hate it, but it's also, it sounds so goofy that if I don't have any lines or something that I'm fine doing it. But I ended up on so many shows I worked on as a writer, being an emergency go to that.

Michael Jamin:

I

Rob Cohen:

Truly, I truly hate it. I

Michael Jamin:

Truly hate it. As mentioned, Rob was talking about Andy Gordon, who's a writer we worked with a number of times. Yeah. A great guy and hilarious writer, but

Rob Cohen:

Hilarious and so funny. Like just as a person

Michael Jamin:

It really witty, really making laugh. Yeah. And you just had dinner with him. Yeah. It's so fa Okay, so then you were okay. Then we worked together and just shoot, We, for many years, we, we used to sit next to each other. Yeah. Sometimes at least. Yeah. And then, and then what happened was years, I remember years later we were doing a pilot. We were helping out a pilot. I don't remember whose Do you, do you remember? We were, I remember I pilot, I don't know, might have been, might have been a CBS Ratford pilot, but, but what happened? So people don't know. So when someone makes a pilot, it's very, at least back in the day, it was very common for the person who created the show to call in their friends as a favor. Hey, can you guys help, you know, sit a couple days and help me, You know? Right. Pitch on jokes or do the rewrite or whatever. And as it's courtesy, you always say yes. I mean, you just never, never say no. And Cause

Rob Cohen:

You also hope, if it's a success, you'll get a job.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But sometimes you have a job so you don't even care. But Sure. But, but absolutely. You always say yes. And I remember being there on the state floor, and I hadn't seen you in a while, and I was like, Rob, what are you up to? And then you said, I was like, so I was thinking you were gonna, you know, you had written on a bunch of shows, but you were like, Yeah, I'm kind of done. I'm done writing, I wanna direct

Rob Cohen:

Mm-Hmm.

Michael Jamin:

. And so what happened there? What was the, what made you wanna stop writing and start directing?

Rob Cohen:

I feel like I, I'm gonna continue to take long, boring stories and compress them, but the, the quickest answer is I'm so appreciative of the, the fluke that come into writing. And I, I was a writer on TV shows for 18 years. Right. And I, I greatly appreciate the opportunity that it provided in all areas. But what was happening would be I would be on a show and they would need somebody to go supervise, like a shoot on, like at, you know, the Radford lot. There was that fake New York Park. So they would need somebody to go film a scene that's supposedly Central Park. Right. Also, if they were doing any exterior shoots, I would volunteer to do that. And there's people we know that are writers that hate being around actors and they just wanna stay in the room. . And I was, I was realizing I wanted to get out of the room mm-hmm.

Rob Cohen:

and go where the action was. And then I would direct some, some friends of mine would do low budget music videos and I would do it for free. And then I was kind of building this weird little real sort of unknowingly. And then other friends of mine that part of those Diamond Club crowds that were now becoming well known comedy performers were doing movies. And they would ask me if I would help write the promos, you know, the commercials for the movies. And foolishly or otherwise, I would be like, Yeah, if you, if you arrange for me to direct these promos, I'll definitely, I'll write it and I'll do it for free. And they're like, Okay. So because they had muscled with the studio, they would be like, Rob's the guy and he's also gonna direct it in the studio's. Like whatever you say.

Rob Cohen:

Right. So I realized that I was really enjoying it. I'm not saying I'm good at it, but I was really enjoying it. And then building this sort of very weird real. And then when the writer strike happened 2007, 2008 I was walking the picket line and kind of had this feeling in my head, like, if I go back into the room, I'm going to stay on the path of being a TV writer probably for many, many, many years. And this is an opportunity. I was pretty honest with myself. It's like, what I really, really want to do is be directing, like, to make the stuff instead of write the stuff. Right. So, so I decided on the picket line that I would kind of hop off the writing train and just try to keep cobbling together these weird little directing jobs. And

Michael Jamin:

That's,

Rob Cohen:

That was when I made the term.

Michael Jamin:

But I remember being on the floor with you on this stage and say, I remember this conversation really well. I was like, Wow, you're gonna be a director. And I said, like, So is your, because you know, Rob's a big shot writer. I said, So is your agent helping you out with this?

Rob Cohen:

Right.

Michael Jamin:

And what was your answer?

Rob Cohen:

Not at all. They wouldn't not at all

Michael Jamin:

Discuss it. And why not didn't discuss

Rob Cohen:

It because I was making money for the agency as a writer, and they did not want to go through building me up as a director because they were and it wasn't evil, It was just, those were the facts.

Michael Jamin:

That's exactly right. And that's, it's not, it's because that's a hard sell. They're not gonna push that rock up the hill. They already have directors and Rob's a no one is, he's said, no one is a director. Correct. And so you, you were literally starting your career over, and the way you did it was by working for free, you know, by just doing it and not asking for permission. You just did it. You know, figure out what you can do. And I say this all the time on my podcast, on my social media, like, and I use this, I use as an example, you know, you did it. And then I, so we were at one point we were running Maron, and that's, and I use you as another example of how to get work there. So I don't remember who contacted who, but we were, Maron was our low budget show, really super low budget show. And I guess, and how did, how did we get, I don't remember. I don't remember details, but we came in contact again.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin, if you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Rob Cohen:

In what I think it was, I emailed you guys to congratulate you on the show and we just started a dialogue. And then you guys very generously asked what I was doing. And I think that's how we loosely started this conversation.

Rob Cohen:

Right. But it was you Sivert, Mark, who I'd known a bit in the past. And then was it Erco or was it yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Probably Pi Cerco.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. I can't remember. I mean, you guys went way out of your way to let me have a meeting.

Michael Jamin:

But what's what I, I

Rob Cohen:

Remember is in Glendale.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And what I remember about that meeting was how prepared you were. You came, we met with a lot of directors and we needed directors who were cheap, can do low budget. Who, And you, you had, you were all that I could do low budget cuz you do low budget, you do no budget. Right, Right. And you came in super prepared, and I've talked about this before as well. I, I think on my podcast, we on social media is like, you blew us away. So what you did, as I remember, you watched the presentation, which is already shot, and then you, you blocked it. You, you, you drew diagrams and you said, this is where I would've, this is how I would've shot the presentation. This is where I would've put the cameras. And see, by doing it this way, you have less setups and you don't have to move the cameras much.

Michael Jamin:

And because you do, because you're being efficient with your setups, you can make your day, you can get all the shots that you need because I'm not getting a ton of coverage. I'm just getting exactly what I need and I'm getting it fast. And the fact that you took all that time to draw those drawings, you, you know, you proved to us, and I remember you walked out and we were like, He's hot. You know, he's the guy, he knows how to do it. Mm-Hmm. , you know, you blew us away. So it wasn't like we did you a favor, you came in, you were prepared. You know,

Rob Cohen:

We, Yeah. But I really, I mean, again, I remember that meeting so clearly because I was, I, I, I loved you guys. I thought the presentation was awesome and the show had all this great promise, but I loved the vibe of what the show could be and really, really wanted that job for those reasons and to work with you guys again. But also because I knew there was a way, and it was my old writer sort of producer brain thinking like, there's limited time, there's limited money. How can you maximize the writing and the, the humor opportunities, but your production schedule is so crazy tight. How can mathematically you do both things? And that's, I remember leaving that meeting and just like, I, I didn't know what else I could've said, but it was really my experience as a writer and a producer, just like, this is how I would make this more efficient. Not that you guys were inefficient, but it was just how my brain had worked from the writing side.

Michael Jamin:

And that's, and I, and that's what we appreciated most about you as a director, is that you came from a writer, you were a writer, you understood the writing, you understood how to be true to the script, how to service the script. And I gotta say, it was always very easy working with you was never, you had never had any ego attached. You were like, Hey, is this, how do you like this? Oh, you don't like that? Maybe you like this. It was always, you know, course pleasing the client basically. But

Rob Cohen:

You guys were not only were you my friends, but you guys were the bosses along with Mark and I I would say just, it's not even from a Canadian standpoint. It's like you are hired to visually capture the script that has been written mm-hmm. . So if somebody's coming in thinking like, here's how I'm gonna put my stamp on it, or this is gonna be for my real, it's a mistake because Right. What I, what I love doing, and you guys were great show runners, was if you got Guy, if there was an idea I had, I would happily run it by you because it made it easier if you liked it. And if you said, Well, we actually thought about it this way when we wrote it, it's like, that's cool. My job is to visually capture it. Yeah. And, and also it's like this scene's running over, so here's a, here's an idea how we can pick up that time.

Rob Cohen:

Right. Or Mark has an idea. So it's like, okay, let's honor what Mark is saying and Right. That's to me, it's your number one goal is to take the blueprint and build a house. And it was so easy because you guys, we all knew each other, but we all came from a writing background. Yeah. And it was, it was like, well, you know, this B story's never gonna pay off this way, so what if we just save some time and just make this like a joke instead of a B story or whatever was going on. But

Michael Jamin:

I remember right. I was always relieved when you, when you were directing, I was like, Oh, this is gonna be a good fun week. It's gonna be easy. It's gonna be yeah, we'll get what we need.

Rob Cohen:

Oh, I loved it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Rob Cohen:

I love that show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That was, we had a blast. But it was, yeah, it was low budget. And then, so what do you say to, because it's so many people, you know, they do ask me like, Well, how do I, how do I become a director? Mm-Hmm. . And so how would you tell people, young people just starting out, I would do what you just did, but go, let's hear what you would say. No,

Rob Cohen:

I, I would say you know, again, to sound like an old man, times have changed mm-hmm. . and I would say that the number one thing is to show somebody that you have directed something and that can be directing it on your phone or making a short film. There's so many ways to do it inexpensively now with technology. There's no excuse. Right. My second answer would be it's to show the people that have written the show or have the script that you can not only be trusted to run the set and get all the scenes and get some options e editorially, but that you also aren't literally just filming the script that you are gonna mind some more humor. Right. Or you have a style that's appropriate and that's established in the first part that I said, which is make your own real.

Rob Cohen:

You know, like there's a music video I did the total budget out the door before, way before that was $2,000. Like everything. Right. And we were able to, you know, we had three minutes and 25 seconds or whatever it was to do it, but we were able to get some funny stuff within the video and it was for Virgin Records. And the one letter I got back from was like, We love this video because there's so much funny stuff in it. It wasn't about the song, but it's finding a way to sort of add, without putting the spotlight in yourself because the spotlight should be on the script.

Michael Jamin:

But once you have your reel, like okay, how do you, who do you show it to

Rob Cohen:

You? If I was doing it today? I think you show it to I mean YouTube is a great example of somewhere that for free, you can exhibit your wares mm-hmm. , I would say the going, showing it to an agent is a, is an older route that I think is gonna be more frustrating because you can now start a website of yourself and send it around to people with a click. I think, you know, the great thing about short films is there's so many festivals and a lot of 'em are online that even if you make a three minute short film for a, a very inexpensive amount of money, you could literally have people around the world see it after you're done editing it. And so that's what I would do today is write something, because if you write it, it gives you extra juice.

Rob Cohen:

Mm-Hmm. . And then you're also not paying a writer. Right. And you, and then the way that you saw it as a writer, writers basically direct stuff in their head when they're writing mm-hmm. . So then take the initiative to film what you saw in your head originally and put down on paper. And then there's so many people that would do favors. Your friend might be an editor and he needs something for his reel. So you make a deal. It's like, if you edit this for me we'll have a finished product, then both of us have something. So I, I would say it's, it's, it's it's hustle, but it's not like that lame thing of you gotta hustle. I think it's an iPhone will make something so beautiful. And with an iPhone and a tripod, your costs are gonna be your phone and a $10 tripod.

Michael Jamin:

And I, I say the, I Go ahead. Continue. Right.

Rob Cohen:

Well, no, I just think there's no excuse to not make stuff. Yeah. But you want to, you, you want to use the internet you want to use film festivals that a lot of 'em have free submissions and start a website you're on webpage and people will find it like they, somebody's gonna see it. And as long as you keep adding to it on a fairly regular basis, it's the same as when you and I were starting, you would have to send out a packet and to meet writers for staffing meetings, they would want to either read your spec half hour or your writing packet. So this is the same thing, it's just your directing packet.

Michael Jamin:

Right, Right. I say this all the time, I think people think I'm nuts, but Yeah. It's just like, stop asking for permission and just do it. Yep.

Rob Cohen:

Absolutely.

Michael Jamin:

A Hundred percent. And stop and stop thinking about starting at the top. How do I sell my, how do I direct for Twentieth Century Fox? No. How do I direct for my neighbor? Yeah, That's, that's the question. Yeah.

Rob Cohen:

But that's what I loved about those music videos. Not to keep referencing 'em, but you're, the, the greatest thing is when the artist said yes, because I was like, Oh, this is great. I'm gonna have a music video in my real, And then you realize like that $2,000 pays for catering, pays for editing, pays for a dp, pays for lighting, pays for location, and you very quickly realize you have no money. But the challenge of that is so great and has so much value, these little jobs that people can take because when you do show it to somebody, they go, You made that whole thing for $2,000. That's ex or damn, or you made this short film for a hundred dollars and you could, I you could, if you have a Mac and an iPhone, you can make a film.

Michael Jamin:

I said, so funny you say, cuz I said the same exact things. Like the less money you spend, the more impressive it is because you're saying a

Rob Cohen:

Hundred percent,

Michael Jamin:

You know, and, and by the way, no one's gonna be impressed by the Dolly shot or the special effects you put in because you're not gonna, you know, the Marvel movies are gonna do that a thousand times better than you can ever dream of doing it. Yeah. So it always comes down to the script and Yeah. And, and how little you can spend. That's the impressive part.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. And I will say, not to over compliment you, but whenever I have meetings for directing jobs that every, the shows that they bring up almost every time that they're really curious about are Marin mm-hmm. standing against Eva, which is another Iffc show. And somebody Somewhere, which is the Bridget Everett show, which is an incredible group of people that do that, but on a fairly low budget. Yeah. And nobody wants to talk about how you pulled off some amazing big budget production because they know you had a big budget, but if you can show them that you can work lean and mean and you were involved from the ground up it has so much cred with everybody that to this day, like it happened the other day, people were talking about Marin, they did not believe what that schedule was like. Yeah. And when I explained it to 'em, their minds are blown. Yep. They, they can't believe it's possible. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah. Fast

Rob Cohen:

And it is possible.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It was like two or two and a half days for a shoot,

Rob Cohen:

Which is two and a half days for an episode.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And ordinarily, it's like five. Right. Or how do you, have you ever directed an episode that was more than five days?

Rob Cohen:

I've done one that's six. Okay. but you know, me, the thing that I would say in these meetings is like basically a, a regular work week, you will have completed two episodes where most shows are barely getting one for a way bigger budget. Yeah. But the great thing about the Iffc model was they don't give you notes, they stay outta your way. They're supportive and they appreciate that you're delivering a television show for peanuts. But then everybody benefits because they've agreed to embark on a journey where everybody has skin in the game. And that, that I think also will help people get writing or directing jobs.

Michael Jamin:

I see. I, I think sever and I, we prefer, you know, we take whatever work we get, but we prefer working low budget for that reason. They leave you alone and you can actually be more creative. But how do you feel when you're like, I would imagine directing a high budget piece would be more stressful and, and and terrifying.

Rob Cohen:

It is, but because there's more writing on it. But I would say the larger budget stuff that I've directed, and it's not like major movies or anything like that. The, the pace of things is a lot slower mm-hmm. because people have more time and more money. And to me, I love going fast and lean and mean because you still have the amount of money, but why not get five takes at a scene instead of two takes. Right. And, and so if you have more money, it doesn't mean you get lazy, you keep your foot on the gas, but you just get more options. Right. And so I think learning anything, writing or directing anything from the ground up with no resources will make you be more creative and more efficient. And people, when they're hiring you, certainly for directing, appreciate how efficient you are. Because you're basically saying, Give me the keys to the bank and I will take care of your money and you'll have five choices instead of two choices. Right. And that's what it comes down to.

Michael Jamin:

You say choices, do you mean coverage or do you mean

Rob Cohen:

Coverage?

Michael Jamin:

Coverage

Rob Cohen:

Takes coverage? You know, Maron, we would rehearse it as we blocked it. You know, like it was, it's not like we had these long, lazy rehearsals. It was like, Okay guys, we have three hours in the living room. Let's,

Michael Jamin:

Do you have more rehearsals, more rehearsal times on your other shows? Yeah. We had no rehearsal time.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah, sometimes, but I also think that's built into the larger budget. So if it's a network, single-camera show, people can walk away to their trailers and you call him back when you're ready and then lighting director gets everything perfect. And again, like with Joe Kessler, who is our awesome DP on Marin mm-hmm. , that guy works so well just like running gun, Running gun. Yep. And there's ways to make stuff look great. And also Mark, who's not a trained actor, was delivering some really heavy stuff mm-hmm. and people are finding it as they go. Because I think that team mentality, if you're writing or directing, everybody's on board. They, they've signed up understanding what the job is and once people chip in it's gonna make it a better experience in every area.

Michael Jamin:

Now you, I'm changing gears here, but you also do a lot of like this Dr. Show. Like you do a lot of, like, you do commercial work, but you also do like bizarre passion projects on the side. Mm-Hmm. , Right? So talk about like that. Like what, what's, what's

Rob Cohen:

Well

Michael Jamin:

Hanging with Dr.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. It was during the Pandemic and Dana Gold, Pete Aaronson and I are friends and we just, everybody was stuck inside and a lot of work had gone away because of the pandemic. And we just started talking and kind of came up on the fly of the show and realized we could make our own YouTube channel and if we put the money together ourselves, then we're the studio. So nobody's gonna stop us because we're paying for it. Right. So Dana does this incredible Dr. Zs impression and we were like, what if Dr. Zs hosted the Mike Douglas show? But he was sort of like a cheesy Sammy Davis Jr guy, and we would call in favors with friends of ours who would be real guests, shoot them remotely and make 10 episodes. Right. And it was truly a fun project during Covid. And we ended up, you know however you could describe having a small but interested following making season one of Hanging with Dr. Z. And we used the internet and Instagram and, and all that stuff, which led to us having a really successful Kickstarter campaign for season two. And the budget, I wouldn't even use the word shoestring, I would say it was like a photocopy of a shoestring, but I love doing weird, silly stuff. And a lot of it it improvised and it just tapped into all of our favorite ways to do stuff. Right. But it was working with friends, you know, during a pandemic.

Michael Jamin:

Right, Right. People have friends and you do project with your friends, right?

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. And we ne we, we have not made one penny on that show. We, we have lost money on it, but willingly because it going, what I said earlier, we could guarantee it would exist because we were creating it and paying for it. So there's nothing stopping us. Why not? Like why not do it?

Michael Jamin:

People often say to me like, you know, they want, or they want me to read this, they want me to make their career. And it's like, you don't need me to make your career. You need three funny friends. There are three friends with a similar vision. Yeah. Do something with them. And that's exactly how you, that's how you started. That's how I started. Yeah. And so that's why I say stop asking for stop begging for permission to just start, you know, doing it. Just do it.

Rob Cohen:

The thing that, like using hanging with Dr. Z as an example, and only because it's something that I was involved in that came out of some friends of ours who were politically active when the elections were happening, the 2020 elections mm-hmm. . And there was a group that had reached out to my friend Colin to make a campaign to stop Mitch McConnell. And so they asked Dana and I like, Could you guys help us out? And there's zero money involved, but are you guys interested? So Dana and I just started to shoot the breeze and we thought, let's just shoot Dr. Zs basically talking about why Mitch McConnell should be stopped. We shot it in his backyard and his girlfriend at the time played Nova and he played Dr. Zs and we did it in front of a, a green screen sheet and we knew we were gonna put the Statue of Liberty from Planet Apes behind them and shot a political ad in two hours.

Rob Cohen:

Right. And then we had so much fun with that and the, this little weird ad kind of did well enough within the small circle of people that love Dr. Z's political ads, that that's what led us to talking about the talk show. But again, it was just homemade. And my point is, I think whether people call it a passion project or whatever they wanna call it, if they have an idea and they write it or they direct it, or they do both, you immediately eliminate people saying, You can't do it because you did it. But more importantly, the people that could give you other opportunities respect the fact that you did it and didn't wait around for somebody to give you an opportunity. Right. Cause you will get the opportunities by creating your own opportunities.

Michael Jamin:

And that's, that's one thing I always admire about you, is you're, you're very entrepreneurial that way. And it's like, Yeah. You follow your heart.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. But I'm also convinced, like as flukey as my career started, I'm convinced that it's gonna end. Every job will be my, my last. So I'm trying to keep more plate spinning Uhhuh. But I also love, you know, like whether it's, you know, somebody somewhere is such an amazing experience because of Bridget and Hannah and Paul who created, and Carolyn Strauss and hbo. And it is the nicest group of people and the most enjoyable environment where you can, every single person on that show in rural Illinois is there because they want to be there. Mm-Hmm. . And that energy drives that show where people watching it on TV can feel that vibe. Right. And, and whatever people think of that show, it's like summer camp where every year you get together and people are so excited to take very little money to be part of this experience.

Rob Cohen:

Right. And that the same thing can happen with person X deciding they want to make a short film or they wanna make fake commercials or whatever, because they're gonna set the tone and they're gonna create the vibe. So I think it's a mistake if somebody's like, I only wanna do cool stuff, or, you know, nobody's gonna let me do my ideas. It's like, Yeah, you're not letting yourself do your ideas. So when you told me you were starting your course, I'm like, the biggest obstacle to somebody making anything these days is the person who's bitching about it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That was me. Yeah.

Rob Cohen:

No, but, but it's all doable. Can you guarantee success? No. But you will gain amazing respect and opportunities by having it be tangible instead of complaining about it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Cohen:

And that's just a fact.

Michael Jamin:

That's just a fact. Well, where do you see, where do you, because the industry has changed so much since we started, What? I don't know. What's, what's your prognosis for the future? What do you see? People ask me this, like, I don't know.

Rob Cohen:

I think, what does

Michael Jamin:

The present look like?

Rob Cohen:

Well, I don't know, but I think it's quite obvious that streamers of the future and broadcast networks are not the future. Mm-Hmm. . So you and I were lucky enough to start in sort of part of the glory days of the nineties when mm-hmm. , you know, you had multiple staffing meetings, you know, you would just, it would be that sort of dating circuit for a few weeks where you would bump into people going in and out of offices. And you started off like having four offers. And then it would be two offers, and then it would be one offer. And then it goes from you hoping you do get an offer, or hoping you get a meeting and you could see the tide is turned. So to me, the future is definitely streaming and smaller budget, shorter orders mm-hmm. . And if somebody is expecting it to go back to people paying you a lot of money to do 22 episodes of a TV show a year, I think that is very foolish. Yeah. In my opinion, because it'll never go back to that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Cohen:

But it shouldn't go back to that.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it is what it is. But, but no,

Rob Cohen:

But there's no more musty tv. Like Right.

Michael Jamin:

You

Rob Cohen:

Know, look at the Emmys. Like, it's the, the show with the biggest amount of TV stars on it that just aired, had the lowest ratings ever. And it's not because of one person, it's because they've lost their viewership. Right. It's, they, they're not gonna get it back. People aren't gonna wake up one day and go, Gosh, I can't wait to watch this award show on broadcast. Like, those days are over.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And so it's always about, it's about hustling, it's about getting work, looking for the next job. Mm-Hmm. about doing your own stuff. Right. Yeah. And, and at the end of day it's gotta be, it's also has to be good. Whatever you're working on, like, you know, has to be great. Right. Well, I

Rob Cohen:

Mean, look, I've done more than my share of crap and largely in my own hand. And I think that an opportunity is an opportunity. You know, there's a lot of credits I don't have in my IMDB page because the show was either a deeply unpleasant experience, or it's such a crappy show. You would spend so much time explaining it to people that they would fall asleep. And so the reason that I've called those credits is because it's, I'm grateful for the experience, but it was a stepping stone to what, what I wanted to do. And if I hadn't taken crappy show X, it wouldn't have led to a more positive thing. And, and I think like what you're doing is encouraging people to pursue an idea that they really believe in and learn the basics of how to write it and shoot it. Mm-Hmm. and just that small amount of initiative, even if you never show your project to anybody, you've made it, It's, it's an immense amount of satisfaction. Mm-Hmm.

Michael Jamin:

. That's right. Incredible. Exactly right. And I, I said that as well. And if you didn't enjoy it, then this Hollywood thing is not for you. Cuz if you're not enjoying it for free, you're not gonna enjoy it when someone's banging, you just, you, you're just gonna get money for it. That's it. Yeah.

Rob Cohen:

And there's people that do that, and they make a fortune. But it's also, you know, like, not to keep talking about when you and I started, but mm-hmm. just shoot movie was in the nineties, and if you said NBC in the nineties had so many comedies, some were good and some were terrible. But now if you look at nbc, are they doing any comedies? Like maybe two?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. So, so it's the same place, but it's the, the tide is clear. So for somebody to aspire to working on wacky old timey NBC comedies, it's very foolish. However, if they are a self starter and, and determine what their roadmap is, nobody will stop them. You can't guarantee success, but at least you've tried it and you might be successful trying it and pursue what you like.

Michael Jamin:

See Rob Cohen is Rob Cohen. Everyone is, is there something where, is there something, What, what, Is there something people can do to follow? What do you, what what do you wanna, Can we plug something about what you're doing? Can we No, no. Can,

Rob Cohen:

No, I mean, I'm not on social media. I, I'm I just, I I'm genuinely appreciative of the projects that invite me to be a small part of it. And those happen, you know, here and there. And there's nothing to really follow. But I, I just think I'm excited to see this on your, your podcast. You've built a great following.

Michael Jamin:

I'll say this, when I need a pick me up, when I need a little encouragement, I call you mm-hmm. to kick me in the ass. Right. So I, you're just a great dude, and I appreciate you so much and for coming on and for sharing, but you thought was what was boring, but it was not boring at all. I, I learned some things about you.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. I was a disaster as a young man, and now I'm an older disaster.

Michael Jamin:

, that's so

Rob Cohen:

What you're, what you're doing, I know you're wrapping it up, but I

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's okay. I I don't wanna take more of your time, but go ahead. No, you're

Rob Cohen:

Not. That's, you're not, I'm, you've got as, as long as you want. I, I really think that if somebody wants to be a writer or director or producer or an editor, then do it. Like, again, you don't have to show it to anybody, but if somebody writes something really great, you can show it to people and someone will recognize that you have talent, but nobody's gonna be able to know anything about what you want to do if you haven't, if you can't manifest it. Right. So you know, again, like when you guys gave me that opportunity on Marin, unbeknownst to me, it, it was a huge help in me getting my next directing job because it, it legitimized me as a director, and then the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. But if I hadn't had that opportunity, it would be a struggle until there was another opportunity. Right.

Michael Jamin:

So you wanna It would happen eventually.

Rob Cohen:

Yeah. But you wanna be prepared for those opportunities. Right, right. So I just think that's just common sense. But what you're doing now, like if I told you you're gonna be doing this five years ago, you would, you would laugh.

Michael Jamin:

I would've said absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Wisdom, Rob. Hustle. Hustle muscle. That's it. I can't thank you enough for coming on, coming on the show time, man. Thank you for being my first guest. I, I didn't, I'm surprised I let you talk so much. I thought maybe I'd be doing all the talking

Rob Cohen:

. No, I'm surprised I talk so much

Michael Jamin:

. I'm surprised. I'll let you get a word edgewise. Yeah. I dog a lot. Dude, thank you so much again. And

Rob Cohen:

Anytime. I love it.

Michael Jamin:

Don't go anywhere. We're gonna, we're gonna have a post more to wrap up after this, but Sure, sure. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And until next time,

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear it. Today's subject for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Michael Jamin, writer. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Phil Hudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

How should I put myself out there as a screenwriter in 2022? If you follow me on social media, you know I constantly give people that advice, "just put yourself out there." Well, this week on Screenwriter's Need To Hear This, we discuss where "there" is and how to put yourself out "there."

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Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Transcripts are auto-generated

Michael:

You know, there's not a lot of demand. There's not a strong demand for, for poor to mediocre scripts. And I think some people think well, but that show on TV that show's terrible. Can I do that? Mine is just as bad. It's like, well, we, we can talk about why that's bad or you know how it's unfair that their bad show is on the air, but, and your a bad show, your equally bad show is not. We could talk about that, but I think your odds, it go up exponentially by doing something great. You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael jam.

Michael:

Hey everybody. This is Michael Jamin. And welcome back to screenwriters. Need to hear this, the podcast for screenwriters who need to hear this. And today we are talking about the title's episode is when put, when putting your work out there, where is there? Because I, I say that a lot. I say, Hey, just put your work out there. And people, one guy was like, Hey, well, we have a where's there. Where is there? Which is a fair thing to ask. And so my answer to that, Phil is anywhere, put your work out anywhere. So whatever you got going on, if you've got nothing going on, which is fine, then putting out your work out there means giving it to somebody else. You know, if you're only, if you only read person, who's read your script or you seen your project is your mom. Show it to one other person.

Michael:

Now you've doubled the number of people. And now you may think that, okay, but that's not enough. Okay. There are other things you can do. But so many people think like, you know, when you're putting your work out there, is there a website? Is there a contest? Is there someone's door stop? Is it me? I'm not the gatekeeper. The gatekeeper is not what you think it is. You know, when I first started in the business, I was just a dude who wanted to be a writer. And I teamed up with another dude who wanted to be a writer. There was nothing special about us. We didn't have connections. We were just two dudes and we were, we became friends. Right? And that's how a lot of partnerships or, you know, that's just a lot about how opportunities, not even just partnerships, it's people who are friends, just doing things together because they both have a similar goal.

Michael:

And so putting your work out there means finding people like you, because making it in Hollywood is climbing a mountain. And when you climb a mountain, you don't start at the top. You don't, you know, you don't show up to Netflix with your script. Hey, get, you know, it doesn't work that way. I mean, maybe it has for one person and, but don't kid yourself for everyone else. You have to climb your way up the mountain. That means starting at the bottom, not starting at the top. And so where do you start at the bottom? The bottom is anything more. But if you've got this going on in your life, which is nothing, then do something, which is a little more than what you have. If your neighbor's shooting something and their backyard, that's more than what you got going on. It just because they don't have the universal studios backing them doesn't mean it's not worthy of getting involved in them, you know, and whatever they're doing, because those people, people with similar interests tend to do things and they rise up and you wanna be part of that.

Michael:

A simple thing to do, a very simple thing to do is if you live in a city, go to your local film school, like how, you know, a lot of cities have, or towns have film schools. And every semester they have they usually have like film festivals, like to, to air the kids' work, their projects. And no one's going to those things be, who's gonna go to that. Like just their mom and their dad, and maybe the roommate go buy a ticket. It'll be $5. It's not gonna be much. If anything, maybe he's free. Go sit through these movies and go watch them. And at the end, mingle with the, these kids and find something nice to say, even if they're terrible, there's, I'm sure you can find something nice to say about something. Go up to the director. I love the way you lit that scene in the alley.

Michael:

Go up to the writer. I love the way you wrote that, that wonderful, the triplet, you know, in the bedroom scene. I love that. I love that. Go up to the actor. You play that so wonderful. Even if it's terrible, even if like the whole thing as a whole, isn't great. I know you can find things to like about it. And just go up to those people and say, Hey, I love what you just did. Consider myself a fan. I'm a fan of your work. Now, a young kid who hears that is gonna freak out because imagine a stranger saying that and that kid, maybe they can't collaborate with some on something now, cuz they're in film school, but they'll be at a film school in a year or two or whatever. And now you are part, you know, now you're hanging out with people who want the same thing and, and maybe you collaborate.

Michael:

Maybe you'll work together on something. Maybe you won't, maybe they'll have an opportunity to, you know, to hire you on something. But those people are gonna go up and you wanna build that base. You wanna build that circle. And that's honestly, you know, that's one of the advantages. So we have this, this, you know, screenwriting course. And one of the advantages is that we have a private Facebook group and I see the people in this FA the private Facebook group, they've gone to my course, they've learned all the lessons and now they start, they're ha they're collaborating. Some people are teamed up. Some people are they're doing table reads together. You know, they're socializing in the, and I think that's fantastic. I'm not doing, I'm not organizing any of that. They're organizing it on their own. They're having table reads. They're helping each other out, which is so smart because that tide rises, man. You, you know, they help each other out. People are already doing great things in that, in that group. Good for them. And they don't need me. I, I don't need to, you know, prod them. They're doing it on their own. These are the fact that they're doing it on their own. These are people who are, who want it, who want, who will make something happen, cuz they want it. You know? Yeah. I've always hanging out with those people.

Phil:

I've always described that group as a, as kind of, there's a barrier to entry there. And I think that, you know, you and I have talked about this too. There's a price on your course and there are a lot of people like, well, why are you charging for a course, if you, why are you giving this away? And I'm the one who pushed for the price on the course because I have experienced enough. And I've invested enough in myself in many ways in the business world and the marketing world. I continue to do this. I've paid for most screenwriting courses online because the people who will appreciate it the most are the ones who will pay for it and you're giving away important information. Yeah, but that also is important to those of us who are in that private Facebook group because all of us are showing we are committed to making this work. And that means when people are asking for notes, they're asking for help. They're asking for feedback. The value that is being shared in that group is, is extremely high. And I've been in a lot of free screenwriting groups. It's people who understand, they think about it the same way. And they're just as committed to the, to making this work and making crew out of this as I am. And as the Dave Crossman's are and the mic, everyone, everyone is,

Michael:

They got skin in the game. You gotta put skin in the game free. If it's Free's worthless and it's not worthless. So put skin in the game and that'll keep and, and, and that'll keep your, you know, motivated. , you're investing in yourself. You're gonna be motivated to make something happen. And, and yeah, so anyway, I would, that's one thing I would do. I'd go up to those film schools and start socializing with those kids. I would, if you're in a town in the middle of nowhere, I would go to your community theater, local theater, and you'll find people, actors, writers, directors, who wanna be involved, who want maybe they want to be involved in your next project that you write. They just wanna act in it. And so that's your little circle. I mean, and there's amazing things that can be done.

Michael:

Remember everyone who got like, who breaks into the business? We we're, no one's beforehand. There's nothing. It's not like we had signs over, had future success. It's, you know, we're just people. And so that's what I would do. And, and a couple of a couple weeks ago, maybe it was months ago, I don't remember, but some, some kid reached out to me from film school. He wa he was looking for an actor in his fifties to, to be in his, you know, student production. Now wasn't really interested in that. But if I were an aspiring actor, you better believe I would've said yes to that. I would've you know, yeah. I'll, I'll do that because those kids are going places and now you're building out your network. And so there's just no, like where is here? Here is anywhere. Just put it out anywhere, do whatever, you know, that that's, I mean, that's what opportunity looks like opportunity. Doesn't look like someone handing you a check opportunity, looks like you making things and doing things, you know? And, and they always, one thing leads to another. It just does, you know?

Phil:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you've put yourself out there over the last year on social media and you. Yeah. Right. And that platform, you know, we had a podcast recently talking about, like, if you were trying to break in, what would you do? And you would do this. You would be putting yourself out on social media. Mm-Hmm podcast. I think I look at that and I think, okay, I am not a produce screenwriter. Why would I write a podcast? Why would I have a podcast about screenwriting? I don't know that I would, if I weren't here with you, because I'm very aware that there are a lot of Charlas and snakes oil salesmen, trying to get ahold of people and make them think they're an expert. And they're pretending to be something right. If you're interviewing experts, that's a different story. If you're providing value in getting access for a different way, that's a different story. But that doesn't mean you need to be putting yourself on social media as a screenwriting expert, if you are not. I think what you're saying is you should be showing everyone what you have. You should be giving it away for free. You should be putting it out there so that people can easily get access to the special thing that makes you a talented person who can write act direct, produce, whatever it is you're doing.

Michael:

And you've had some opportunities just because of your you're doing this, or people know you and people, you know, come up to you just because of this, because you're putting yourself out there. You know? So, and you know, we talked about some things off all on the side. Things, opportunities have kind of come your way as a, just because of what, just because you're here now, you know, mm-hmm, and you're showing up, you know, even on the, even on the job you were currently working in, you're showing up. Yeah. So yeah, don't I guess don't be so literal in terms of like, people say, well, you know, how do I get my show on HBO? Well, you start at the bottom. That's how, yeah. You know it, you know, I don't, I, I, I certainly did. I certainly it's so odd that people, I don't know, I guess they getting its information on the internet, but like, like they're like, how do I sell a show on HBO or, or any network really?

Michael:

Right. And well, I'll tell you how I did it. I started at the bottom so I can go in and I can pitch them and it's not easy. And I certainly, it's not a guarantee I'll sell anything, but I can, I can get the session. I can, I can get the pitch, but it's because I've earned it. And they've, they trust me now with that I'll do a good job if they want it. And that, you know, I know how to make it, but so a stranger, they don't just come off the street. They're not, what do they, they're not gonna just trust someone who hasn't done anything before. Why would they, would you, I mean, would anybody, you know, you're not gonna hand over a check for a couple hundred thousand dollars to someone who hasn't done anything before, that would be nuts.

Phil:

That message is something that separates you from every other guru in the, in the world. Not that you call yourself a guru, but there are a lot of people who claim to claim to be, and there's selling the dream. And when we started putting the course together and we started putting this stuff out there, that was one thing you were adamant about. I cannot sell the dream. I can't be the guy who goes out and tells them you're gonna make it buy my course, rah, rah, you're gonna make it. And there was a lot of pushback on putting a price tag on the course. And I said, you need to, because they're gonna need to value it. And we have to figure out a way to not to not sell the dream and your way of doing that is being so real with people.

Phil:

That, that seems to be the thing that stands out for you. That's the thing, time and time again, people say ouch needed to hear this. Thank you so much for being real about this because you're taking people down from cloud nine, have done real expectations that I might have had of being an nickels fellowship winner. On my first script I put in, or an Oscar winner on the first thing that gets produced, whatever it is, whatever delusions of grand or that I had to have to give me to where I am today, that dose of reality is very important because it does two things. One, go ahead.

Michael:

Well, no, please go, please finish.

Phil:

Let's say it does two things. One, it makes you take a dose of reality to take a step back and say, Hey, how committed do I need to be to this? And do I have what it takes to actually commit to doing this with the belief that I will get better at the more at bats that I have, or right. The other option is, man, this is not for me. I think I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna be in tech sales. I'm gonna make a pretty good living there, enjoy my life and just enjoy film and television,

Michael:

Right? That

Phil:

Possible. It's a valuable

Michael:

When we talk about, you know, living the dream, we're selling the dream, like to me, the dream is, and this, but I made clear about the course is the dream is I will help you become a better writer. I will help you express yourself. And hopefully right at the level, that was, that is required for you to get work. But you know, that's, that's what I can do for you. I can help you cuz you know, there's not a lot of demand. There's not a strong demand for, for poor to mediocre scripts. And I think some people think well, but that show on TV that show's terrible. Can I do that? Mine is just as bad. It's like, well, we, we can talk about why that's bad or you know how it's unfair that their bad show is on the air, but in your a bad show, your equally bad show is not. We could talk about that, but I think your odds go up exponentially by doing something great. You know? And that's, you know, that's all I can help you with. You know, I can't promise you anything other than that. So,

Phil:

But, but what else do we want? Like what, what more could we ask of you, right? That no one's gonna make it in this world until they happen. Like, and unless you make it happen for yourself, you cannot rely on other people to give you anything. Self reliance is the term. We call that in any other aspect. And I think there's a level of self reliance we need to have. And what you're telling people is you need to do the work. You need to sit down, you need to write mm-hmm , you need to understand the craft. You need to have those practice at bats. You don't have to go out in front of a major league ballpark and try to hit a home run. You can put in the daily singles that we've talked about early on this podcast. What can I do today to get ahead? And that's it, that's all is required as daily singles.

Michael:

And I'd like to also add, you know, the, the barrier entries is actually quite different than it was when I broke in many years ago. I, I, I would describe myself and this is a weird thing to say, but I, I, at this point I'm calling, I'm kind of a Hollywood insider. I've been doing it for 26 years. So when I pitch a show, you know, I'm, the guy you'd think that would they, they would buy a show from, I have 26 years of experience. Who else do you think they're gonna buy a show from? If not someone like me, right? So I guess I'm kind of an insider, but the last three shows that I've worked on were from, that were created by Hollywood outsiders, Hollywood outsiders. And so that would be Maron, re link and Tacoma FD. These are people who didn't come in through the Hollywood system and they just created something special on their own and became success, made it so big and built up a big following and, and a fan base because they just did it themselves because they didn't ask permission. And then because of that, they got so big that they needed to hire people like me to help, to help them with their TV shows.

Michael:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to for free join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you. And it's absolutely free. Just go to Michael jamin.com/watchlist

Michael:

There's room out there for people like there is create your stuff and make it great. I mean, you still have to be great that there's there's that little matter you have to get over, but but isn't that isn't not the way it should be. I mean, should shouldn't it have to be great. I mean, yeah, that seems reasonable.

Phil:

I think so tying this back to what we've been talking about across the board, you practice practice, like yeah, you don't go out and become an NFL player. And again, we've, we've talked about the statistic about slightly more NFL players than there are slightly more working writers than in the NFL. Is that right? Yeah. Right. So we've talked about that quite a bit. So the odds are not great for most of us to be professional writers, but I can tell you what improves your odds. Yeah. Working out every day, getting faster, getting stronger practice, throwing the ball, practicing and, and drilling tackles and, and learning the playbook. All of those things that you would do to be a professional athlete. You gotta do 'em as a writer too, you need to come, right? If you show up every day, you need to practice coming up with ideas.

Phil:

You need to sort through the wheat and the Shaf to find the good stuff you gotta, right? You gotta break stories. You need to figure out when you break a story, why it doesn't work, you need to do your outlines. You need to figure out why it doesn't work in the outline, but it did. It felt like it worked in the other one. You need to write the first draft. You need to finish the first draft, which is hard for most people to do. Then you gotta do the hard part, which is share that really bad draft and know that it's bad with people who are gonna give you good feedback on it. Then you have to take those notes and you have to dust off what works, figure out how to make it better, send it out. Then you gotta do it again and again and again and again and again.

Phil:

And then you, when you finally have something that's good enough, you gotta put it away or send it out. And then you gotta do that again. And you gotta show it again, this whole process over and over again. And most people do not have the fortitude to do that because it's hard work, but no one's gonna do it for you. No, one's gonna get up at an hour earlier to help you sit down and write for an hour every day. No one's gonna have no, one's gonna send that email to your friend. Who's a writer and say, Hey, can you read this and give me notes? No, one's gonna sit down and get the notes and then apply the notes. No one's gonna do it. You have to do that.

Michael:

So my partner and I, we have a, we have a project set up an animated project set up at, at peacock now, but we also just pitched a project that didn't sell a, it was a live action project. Didn't sell. We were willing, took out into a few networks and whatever they weren't interested, which is par for the course. So my partner texts me today goes, well, when do you wanna start on the new idea? So, alright, Tuesday. So on Tuesday we start this project, this process, again, of coming up with an idea and then going out and pitching it, knowing full well that the last time I did this, I didn't sell it. And this is par for the course. So I don't just stop. I don't just think, well, I don't just have this one idea and I don't beat it down every door and, and beg people, whoa, whoa. You know, when it didn't sell, I'm like, it's done. It's done well, can find somebody. No, it's done time. Something else come up with something else.

Phil:

So, so major league baseball, right? We talk about at bats and swinging, you can go to bating practice. You can take swings, you can practice, practice, practice, but look at the best batting average. And in, in, yeah, the major leagues. And I'm not, I'm not a, a huge baseball fan by any stretch. I love sports and I love watching a good game and I'll sit down and I'll go to a Dodgers game or wherever I am to enjoy a game. But it's like 303. Hundred's amazing. Yeah. That

Michael:

Means, yeah. If you get on, if you get a hit, once every three times you are and I go into the hall of fame, basically.

Phil:

Yeah. You literally imagine. Imagine if, imagine if babe Ruth or Mickey mantle or whoever went up, struck out and said, that's it guess this isn't for me. I better walk away, better hang up the, the cleats and hand the glove off to that kid. Cuz I am not gonna make it. No, it is striking out and striking out, striking out until you finally hit one. And that makes you amazing. So yeah, none of us are gonna be perfect the first time how we talked about like the fact that if you were to start over and try to break in, you would be digital. Like you would go digital and try to put this out there. I received an email from someone in the course. I received an email from someone who was like, I don't think they're in the course. They emailed the support email.

Phil:

And I said, Hey. And there was to me. So they obviously listen to the podcast. So if you're listening to this, hopefully my advice was helpful. But they said, I am looking to get a short film produced. And I was just wondering like, what are the distribution? How do I get that out there? What, what should I do to make this the best possible? And my advice to them was before you put a dime into producing a project, you need to make sure you have a good script because yeah. A mediocre script shot very well, does nothing. So I would help absolutely take the time to make sure that what you have is worth shooting before. You're gonna go through the time and expense of making that thing happen. Right? Because although it's good experience for everyone involved to get out and short sort through the sound issues that inevitably come up and check, test your lenses and realize that you didn't have the audio on in the cameras. You can't sync your audio, et cetera. All those things are valuable lessons. It's much cheaper to make that mistake on paper and in your final draft or whatever you're writing with before you get on the camera before you have the record for the red. Yeah.

Michael:

Because what if you, yeah. What if you shoot it? And it's just media. If like the script is no good. So who cares? How well lit it is and how, how it looks like a movie and look who cares about the special, if it, if the story's boring, who cares? No, one's gonna be impressed about you, the, how you framed his scene or how the camera flew in or you know the who no, no, they're just gonna be bored. No, one's gonna say, wow, look at that sweeping camera shot. No one's gonna be impressed by the drone footage you put up there. Everyone has drone footage who cares is the story good? You know, that's all the people wanna care

Phil:

About. So what I said was I would, I mean, first recommendation was to invest in the course because you're gonna learn how to tell a good story once you're done with that. Yeah. You have a group of people who you send it to get notes, give feedback. And they're gonna tell you from the lens of proper story structure, what's wrong with this. And then you can hone that in. I even offered to read the script. I said, send it to me. I'll read it. I'll tell you if it's good or bad from my limited perspective. But I can say that now with a little bit of pride and say I'm at a higher level than I was a year ago. I'm at a higher level than I was six years ago when I graduated film school. Yeah. So at least what I'm gonna give you is closer to what a Michael Jamin note was gonna be on this project.

Phil:

Yeah. But that's the, that's the value you get when you're interacting and you have this group of people who are putting in the work and the time and the effort and they're doing it. Yeah. This, this is like, to me, this is like golf, right. We recently just did the Tacoma cup. We all went out and golfed. And I Mike rep, who was one of the writers on the show and I placed dead last. We were the worst on the team, right? He had to play in 15 years. I hadn't played in five years, but we were out there in a foursome, all teeing off, all hitting, all, supporting each other. But it's an individual game. I can't blame Mike rep for his bad shot. I have to take accountability for knocking a tree limb down on a tree, which actually happened. I don't know if I told you that, right. That's funny. But, but that's an individual sport supported by the people in my, for. And we had a great time. They coached me when I made mistakes. This is the same thing. So a lot of sports references today, but ultimately you have to get out, you have to take that bats. You have to strike out and you have to do that over and over and over again until you get incrementally better every single day,

Michael:

Look at the people, how they broke in and how they started. And you know, I certainly was humble. I did a post and I talked about something and and someone said like, well, Quentin Tarantino doesn't have to. And I'm like, are you Quentin Tarantino? Do, when you show up to the, the Ivy in your Maserati, do they mistake you for Quentin Tarantino? You know? No. So the rules, even though he does it one way, you're you haven't earned that right. Yet may, maybe you will. But right now you're not. And so start a little lower, start a little lower, you know?

Phil:

Yeah. I think being very aware self-awareness goes right along with self-reliance. I need to understand the facts of my situation. And that's that takes some time alone to journal and ask the questions. Where am I? Mm-Hmm what are my skillsets? If qu Quent Tarantino is a 10 and I want to be Quent Tarantino, realistically on a spectrum, where am I like?

Michael:

Yeah.

Phil:

Take account accounting of where you're at with the skill sets you need recognize where you need to shore up and where you need to focus and improve. Because if you're a 10 in coming up with the idea and you're a one on the execution, your average here is still pretty bad, right? Yeah.

Michael:

And it's a long road. So if one step at a time know that it's going to take years. That's okay. Is you're getting closer and closer with every step you take. So yeah.

Phil:

When you, you pointed, when you said it's like climbing a mountain is step by step. It was like, Everest has base camp. You have to there's

Michael:

Yeah. They start, they start. Yeah.

Phil:

You have to get, you gotta camp, you got rack

Michael:

For your start.

Phil:

Then you start,

Michael:

Then you start,

Phil:

Right. Where are you on the journey? Where do you need to improve? Put in the time, energy and effort. And either way you'll, as you always say, you get to be creative, you get to be yeah. Centered and focused. And that alone is worth the effort and energy you're gonna put out.

Michael:

Yeah. Yeah. Because right. You're spending your time doing something you love. And if you don't love it, then don't do it. And if you're only doing it for the money, there are other ways to make money,

Phil:

You know, go sell or easier ways to make it you'll make. Yeah. You'll make a lot more money selling stuff.

Michael:

Yeah.

Phil:

So, so

Michael:

Michael, you wanna be a creative, this is how to do it. Yeah.

Phil:

My, I think, I think a very powerful episode today. I know it's a pretty short episode.

Michael:

I, yeah. Do the work. Yeah. Don't get ahead of yourself. Just, just start doing the work. Yeah. Yeah. But you don't have to write your Oscar speech yet that time.

Phil:

Yeah. Hey, you guys all want my social medias at Phil Hudson hit me up. I run a digital marketing agency on the side. I help some pretty influential people. Get their message out there. Yeah. Happy to answer questions. Just message me. Yeah. We'll talk about it. Okay.

Michael:

Yep. Yep. And that's it. All right. Everyone. Couple announcements. So I'll be touring with my show, paper orchestra. If you wanna come see me to your city and you wanna know where I'm gonna be go to Michael jamin.com/live, and I'll let you know where, where I'm coming to next. We're going to Boston next is my next city. And then back in LA for two shows in December. But we'll be, we'll be going other places as well. All right, everyone. Thank you so much. And until the next time.

Phil:

Bye

Michael:

Bye.

Phil:

This has been an episode of screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject for free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at Michael Jamin writer. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at Phil Hudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas crane until next time, keep riding.

As a Showrunner, I'm involved in every decision made on the show, including who gets cast in what role. For actors, there's a lot of confusion about what we're looking for, and the whole process can feel painful. Whether you're an aspiring actor, an actor doing self-tapes, or getting Producer callbacks, this episode should help clarify a lot of the behind-the-scenes. For writers, this is an important episode because it will help you understand how important it is to give actors the info they need to nail their auditions, get what you want on film, and put up on the screen.

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

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As a writer, you're paid for being vulnerable. Your unique life experience is what makes your writing unique, but how you present that information is pivotal to telling a good story and not making people uncomfortable. IN This week's podcast, Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson discuss the paradox of being vulnerable in your writing.

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For many aspiring screenwriters, the day-to-day job is often romanticized and fantasized. In this episode of Screenwriter's Need To Hear This with Michael Jamin, we look at what Michael's everyday job is really like. If you've ever wondered what a professional TV Writer does in a day, this episode is for you.

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

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Since I began engaging with aspiring screenwriters on social media, it became apparent that most of them are overly concerned with someone stealing their ideas. This is by far one of the most frequently asked questions that I get asked. Here's my answer for all of you stressing about registering with the WGA and filing a Copyright claim. Just remember, I'm not a lawyer.

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

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I get asked all of the time how to break into Hollywood. The bad news is that there is no one size fits all answer to this question. The good news is that it has never been easier. In today's episode, Phil and I tackle this question from the perspective of the technology and opportunities young screenwriters have that I didn't when I was breaking in.

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist