What's the value?

Arnie works in asset management at a global investment bank, he served as an Army officer and aviator/helicopter pilot for 10 years, and he is a long time family friend. Maybe most importantly for this conversation, Arnie is someone who is willing to question his own thoughts and beliefs. He's trying to figure it out- he is trying to figure out how to live his "best life", how to be happy, how to be a good son, how to be a good a person, etc. He knows those are things he wants to achieve. He knows he feels a sense of responsibility to live up to his potential. He also knows that is what makes life so challenging, because there are things we want to achieve but there is no way to know for sure how to do it. And he seems to know that the best he can do is question his thinking and hope it eventually leads him down the right path.

This was definitely one of the more philosophical conversations we've had on the show. We went back and forth a lot. We tried to figure out if this thing called life makes any sense at all. Arnie is more of a believer that if we work "bottoms up" and take even small actions every day in the right direction, that might be the blue print to a "good life." I am more skeptical of that, because I still worry that even those small actions need to be rooted in some value/morality system that tells you what the "right direction" is. I think we need to figure out at a very high level what the meaning of life is for us, what we value, and then do the hard work to live in accordance with that. But how we do ever determine with any confidence what the meaning of our life is? Those are the types of discussions we had on this episode. Arnie was awesome because he wasn't afraid to swim in the mud of uncertainty. It is uncomfortable and it can be unsatisfying because it doesn't always (if ever) leave us with concrete answers. But as Arnie showed on this episode, that might just be life. There are no comfortable conclusions, there are no easy answers, there is no peace that comes with figuring it all out. Our job is to do the work every day to try and figure it out, while accepting the reality that we likely never will.

I told you this one was real philosophical, but I hope you still find it valuable and enjoy it. As always, thanks a lot for listening.

Pat was a fun guest to have on. He is 15 years old, so right away that makes for an interesting conversation. Many of us listening to these types of podcasts are 30/40+ and think of life through a very narrow lens given our age and all the experiences we've had. It is hard for us to remember what it was like to be 15 and how we thought about life then. More often than not, we are dismissive of teenagers and don't put much stock in what they have to say. As I always say though, I think there is something to be learned from everyone. And to learn from someone with such a different perspective on life, given his age, is all the more valuable.

Pat's value was a little open at the onset, but it became clear as we spoke that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the main passion and focus of his life. That was the other thing fun about talking to Pat. He is only 15 years old but he could probably kill me if he really wanted to. Pat has been training since he was 7 years old (I've been fortunate to train with him for the last 3) and becoming great at jiu jitsu is something really important to him. It was cool to hear him talk about his mindset for training, competing, losing, winning, and his overall journey in the sport. My big takeaway was how impressive and methodical his approach to his craft is. It is likely in large part to the influences in his life (his dad, his coaches, etc.) but he seems to truly embrace the martial arts mindset of patience, hard work, humility, calmness, etc. 

My dream is to have Pat back on the show in a few years when he is an ADCC champion, but let's see where life takes us all. In the meantime, it was cool to get to know him a bit better and learn from someone in a very different point in life than I am. I really hope you guys enjoy it and thanks for listening.

Kristin was in a jet ski accident at the age of 14 that left her friend dead and her paralyzed. She was told she wouldn't survive, then that she wouldn't feel/move below her mid-torso. Since then, she's been on a long journey of self-improvement, reflection, entrepreneurship, and alternative therapies, trying to make the most of her "crummy" situation. She's written 3 books, raced 14 marathons, and is acting as producer on a tv show based on her experiences with dating in a wheelchair. 

The first thing I took away from this conversation was a degree of disbelief and confusion at how Kristin could have the positive mentality she has after what happened to her. Kristin gave "patience" as her value, which made sense since there was so much patience involved in overcoming her situation. But what was really interesting was that eventually I realized that she also meant "patience" to allow yourself to accept that life is hard and we fuck up all the time and bad stuff happens but there is still a path to happiness. To be willing to take the time and the struggle to find out what that path is, no matter what.

I say it all the time, but guests like this are exactly why I love doing this show. To have someone like Kristin be willing to open up and share so much about her experience and let me ask questions to understand it at a deeper level is really an amazing thing. To me it becomes so much more real, tangible, and possible when you can understand the concepts in a fundamental/practical way. This conversation was a great opportunity to do that, specifically around overcoming adversity and finding happiness. I really hope you enjoy it and thanks for listening.

Apparently when a couple of Italians from Long Island, who have known each other for 25 years, get together we like to talk a lot and argue with each other. So that is what me and Justin did for much of this conversation, but in a way that I think is productive. I've known Justin since middle school and he is one of the more liberal people I know, so I knew it would be an interesting conversation. 

He came with a, some what expected, value of "being a good person" as his answer to the question. Yes it is a bit vague, generic, and subjective so we talked about that. We talked about why he wants people to think of him as a good person and what is even really means. Respectfully I made a case for why that type of value is almost completely useless on a logical basis but we debated if it had practical value. These are always fun when I get to talk to someone I know really well, at least for me. Hopefully you guys enjoy it too.

Opal was a really cool guest to have on the show. Firstly, she was one of the most prepared guests I've had on, as she brought a bunch of notes and reference material to help drive the discussion. Secondly, she had a real willingness to discuss topics that normally can be too difficult or sensitive. We touched on cancel culture, the need for acceptance, intergenerational trauma, and what it was like to be Chinese but adopted into an Australian family and culture. 

For Opal, she valued integrity so much because it seemed to be passed down, almost genetically, from her ancestral Chinese background. But there was more to it then just that. She also believed that when you have integrity (a consistent practice of following an ethical or moral compass) it is inevitably going to create tension or conflict. This is because societal values or norms are often fluid and that causes friction with those who remain committed to a consistent set of values. That makes it hard to be consistent. It makes it hard to practice true integrity. And that is why Opal values it so much. The solution to cancel culture and many of the problems we have today, is not to just follow the herd but rather to figure out what you value and stay true to that-- in spite of what the external world tells you (her definition of integrity). 

At the root of this struggle is the human need for acceptance. We follow the herd and we stray from our values, often because we just want to be accepted. Opal had a unique perspective on this as someone who was adopted. She spent much of her childhood grappling between embracing her Chinese heritage and assimilating with western/Australian culture. It was fascinating to hear her talk about that process and how it influenced who she is today. I really hope you all enjoy this one and it helps give some perspective on the challenge of trying to be true to yourself, while also trying to fit in.

Rudy is a political author and blogger with a website, Concordia (https://concordia.blog/), where he discusses his views on politics, society, and other relevant topics. He was an interesting conversation for me because based on his work, he appeared to approach life with a lot more certainty than I do. In some ways you might look at Rudy "on paper" and think you have a pretty good handle on him. He believes "discipline" is the most important value in life. He thinks society has gotten soft, is too entitled, and is not willing to do hard work. He believes strongly in liberty and freedom, he is skeptical of the media/government and how they are portraying COVID, and he thinks social democracy has some fundamental issues. If you wanted to put him in a box, he appears to be the "standard, right leaning-libertarian" that believes the country needs to stop whining so much. 

But that is why we have these conversations. It is useless, if not counterproductive, to make assumptions and try and label someone that simply. The world is complex and nuanced; and people are complex and nuanced. I wanted to get a better understanding of Rudy and what underpinned his beliefs. Frankly, I wanted to see if his approach risked being too insensitive or judgmental of other people who don't see the world the way he does. To his credit, he was happy to have this conversation and talk through his underlying logic. We dove into his childhood experience of trying to make the basketball team, his views on weight loss and self discipline, and even his experience with his son who has a learning disability. We used these instances as mini use cases to see how his value system applied in each.

As is almost always the case, there were no definitive answers or conclusions. It is almost impossible to say if Rudy's approach to life is "right" or "good." But maybe that is the point. Maybe the big take away from this discussion should be that we should reserve judgement until it is absolutely necessary. We all have our own values, but it is useless--if not counterproductive, to judge someone else based solely on our personal values and perspectives. Maybe someone is struggling to lose weight because they are too lazy to stick to a diet and they do need more discipline in their life. Or maybe they are struggling because they were abused as a kid and have deep mental trauma that makes it feel nearly impossible to control their eating. Or maybe they have a biological or hormonal issue that requires medical treatment. The point is we don't know for sure and we should act accordingly. We shouldn't be too quick to judge someone else just because it fits into a narrative we hold. 

That applies to me as much as anyone else, which is I was I am glad I took the time to get to know more about Rudy. I got to understand that he is a thoughtful, respectful person who wants to make a positive impact on the world. He just has his own, unique view on the best way to do that. My goal wasn't for him to change that view, my goal was just to understand it better. My hope is that my willingness to understand him better, will lead to him trying to understand others better, and then those people trying to understand others better...and on and on and on.

There were so many things I enjoyed and found insightful about this conversation with Patty. The thing that stands out most is how complex life is, and in this case, how complex Patty's life is; but then getting a raw, behind the scenes look into how she tries to process it all. Patty went to UC Berkeley, is a molecular cell biologist, an executive at a company that develops virus testing (kind of an important thing right now), went to Harvard Business School, and cares deeply about her career and the impact she makes on the world. At the same time though, Patty is a wife and mother of 3 young kids, who stated "family" as the value that matters most to her, and most nights is just trying to figure out how to get her kids to go to sleep. As is true for many of us, regardless of where we went to school, what job we have, and what are family dynamics are, Patty is trying to figure out how to optimize her life with all these different, and at times competing, priorities.

What was cool about this episode in particular is that we got such a good view into Patty's analytical, science driven mind. She talked about the ways she tries to assess problems, understand the facts, mitigate risks, etc. but she was also completely honest about how sometimes life is just a shit show and you try to survive as best you can. There is something so real and relatable in that. She also spoke about the unique challenges and frustrations that come with being a mom and a driven, career oriented person. It's not easy to be reflective about these things and it is even harder to be honest about those reflections; so I am super grateful to get a chance to hear Patty do both. I really hope you enjoy this episode and it gives you some sense of comfort that we are all doing the best we can to make our way through this unbelievably complex, messy, but beautiful world.

King is a father, a son to a single mom, an artist, and an entrepreneur from the Bronx, NY. He talked about the importance of having a purpose as his key value, because it is the main thing that allows him to navigate the world and the constant ups and downs that come with it. He grew up in the streets without a dad at home and had to figure out at a young age how to get through the cycles of life. He had to figure out how to take care of his mom, how to become a man, how to make money, and ultimately how to be happy when bad stuff keeps happening. For him, having something he was working towards allowed him to do that. If you just accept life for what it is today, without any drive towards something, it is too easy to get caught up in those cycles. It is too easy to think life is too hard and it is not worth the effort to try and progress forward. 

King found his way through rhyming and his music. He figured out that music allowed him to talk about his struggles, his goals, and his motivations in a way that could resonate with other people. It gave him an avenue to drive towards something better for himself and his son. As with other artists I've had on the show, it was really interesting to hear him talk about his music and where he gets his inspiration from. Also, as a lyricist, his ability to put words to the complex thoughts we all have about life was really cool. 

At it's core what I really enjoyed about this conversation was the realness of it. King talked about how when he was a kid he took on too much, trying to be the man of the house. Now as an adult, he finds himself in that same cycle again where he is trying to fix that with his son. He, like many parents, is trying to figure out a way to pass on what he has learned to his son, so that he doesn't have to go through the same struggles. But at the same time, he realizes that these lessons can't always be taught. His son will have to figure out some of it for himself. I think what King is hoping for is, in many ways similar to what I am hoping for with this podcast, to set an example and to give his son some tools so he has a better chance to figure out what genuinely works for him.

Talissa’s tag line on her profile caught me instantly, it read: “I am a documentary photographer obsessed with experiencing and capturing the world before it disappears.” There was so much about this I found interesting and wanted to hear more about, not least of which was that “obsessed” word. There is such an emotional charge in that word that strikes right at the core of this show. It was clear what she valued most, and I wanted to learn more about it from her perspective.

In the conversation Talissa explained why she is so obsessed with documenting nature, what it feels like in her mind when she captures a great shot, the struggle and the pain that goes into her art, and the reason she relishes the fear of failure. I deeply enjoyed this conversation because I find it fascinating to get inside the mind of an artist and understand their passion. But I also enjoyed it because the parallels to the philosophy of life are so palpable. Not all of us are artists or photographers, but Talissa’s journey still rings true for everyone that is trying to figure out their purpose in this world.

Selfishly for me, I also really appreciated the insights I took away for this podcast. The same feeling Talissa seeks, when she captures a great photograph, is the same thing I am seeking when I have an authentic conversation with someone about what matters to them most. Her perspective on the necessity of pain, struggle, doubt, and fear to achieve that moment, was a beautiful reminder for me. It reminded me not to run away from those feelings, but to embrace them—because as torturous as they can be at times, they are the reason life has any meaning at all.

As you will hear in this conversation, Patrick is one of the more analytical, logical people I know. He is the CEO of a company, an MBA, and someone who clearly spends a lot of time thinking about his actions and mental frameworks. Sometimes in these conversations the value comes from pressure testing, probing, and challenging views to get to a new insight, but other times the value comes more from listening and digesting the knowledge and wisdom of the other person—I think this conversation fell more into the latter category.

He started with “humility” as his value. This was the first time we’ve had someone select that on the podcast and I was glad he did. I also value humility a lot and as we discussed during the episode, it is not just because of its intrinsic value, but because it is very functional too. It becomes a mechanism to unlock so many other benefits because it allows us to stay receptive to different ideas and perspectives. As Patrick described, this is extremely valuable in both your professional life as well as your personal life.

It would not be a “What’s the value?” episode if we did not do some pressure testing though. So as part of the conversation we tried to understand how to balance humility and confidence and what to do when others aren’t exhibiting humility. Also, very specifically for Patrick, we discussed how he reconciles his Harvard MBA and CEO title with his value of staying humble. In hindsight, I wish I had dug a little deeper to understand the first principles view of what drives him on a personal level; or said another way what a “good” life means to him. But the beauty of this show is we go where the conversation takes us and, in this case, it took us down the path of a really thoughtful, analytical discussion of how humility improves the odds of reaching your desired outcomes (whatever they might be).