What's the value?

Jack Kammer views himself as the “counter-feminist social worker.” He has dedicated a significant portion of his life to this issue. He is a public speaker, social worker, podcast host, and ultimately a strong voice trying to address the undervaluation of masculinity (“vitamin M”) in our current culture. When he reached out to me, I immediately was intrigued. This was my first opportunity to have someone on the show who was kind of unapologetic about such a controversial topic. The show and the approach I take is meant to try and overcome the usual bickering, tit for tat, and anger-based division that arises when someone has strong views on a topic like this. It was meant to provide a better way to work through it. That was what it was meant to do, but would it?

Listen, I am not going to sugar coat it (nor would Jack for that matter) he has strong feelings about the damage aspects of the feminist movement have caused. It would be super easy, and some might say even justified, to dismiss his views, consider him an asshole, and move on. But that is not helpful, nor is it logical. There are a number of things Jack brought up which are valid. There are aspects of human nature and the current social environment that might be causing harm to men (obviously that does not ignore all the harm that has and still is being done to women). That is why I wanted to spend the time on the show hearing his views, probing them, and trying to get to the root of what they are actually based on. And maybe even more importantly, to question if the approach he was taking to try and fix the problems was logical and effective.

We talked about it on the show a lot, how anger and hurt can cloud our judgement and perspective. That means even when we are genuinely trying to do something we believe is right, there is a chance that anger clouds our judgement on how to best do it. I appreciate Jack a ton for coming on the show, allowing us to dissect and question his views, and considering this possibility. I understand the topic may be triggering or upsetting for some, I get it, I really do. But my hope is that by taking this approach to these conversations, it gives us a better chance to finally break the division and get to a better outcome for all. As always, thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy the episode.

A few disclaimers on this one. Nina spoke about some pretty terrible abuse she suffered in her life, particularly at the hands of her father. So for those uncomfortable or not wanting to hear some of those details, this might not be the episode for you. Also, before we started the show, Nina let me know she was a little nervous because she doesn't think/speak in a very linear fashion. This is even more notable because I tend to think in a very logical, linear fashion, so the contrast is interesting for sure. You already know how I feel about this though, to me the more contrast in perspective the better, because that is how we learn. Finally, for some reason about mid way through the episode Nina forgot my name and started calling me "Matt." I am not sure why but we were so deep into the conversation and I decided not to correct her (maybe the people pleaser in me rearing its head).

With that all said, as a bit of background and context, Nina is a somatic intuitive healer for over 35 years, has a psychology background, and is a yoga instructor (among many other things). She has worked with elite athletes, opera singers, couples struggling with power dynamics, southern Christians who needed to come out of the closet, and war victims who needed to breath. As you will hear on the show, Nina sees the world in a very different way than I do. She is much more open to vast wonder of the universe, to other dimensions, to frequencies and vibrations, etc. She has spent a lot of time over her life time trying to figure out the suffering she has experienced and why the world seems so broken. To her "compassion" is at the core of what it takes to overcome and improve the world. This includes compassion for others, for yourself, for the earth, really in everything.

I spent a good bit of the conversation trying to follow a "thread" that might not have even been there, trying to make logical, cohesive sense of Nina's views. Towards the end though, I think I started to realize that I was missing the point. Nina's message and values aren't designed to be understood by others, they are what work for her. That is the point, we all have to figure out what works for us--truly works for us. Nina had some good input and insights as to how to do that, but the reality is it won't make sense or work for everyone. For me, someone so rooted in logic, it was tough to fully embrace everything she was saying. However, I am super grateful for the conversation, because it was authentic and it challenged my way of thinking. I hope you all enjoy it as well and thank you for listening.

"What's the value?"-- it is the name of the show and I say it all the time, but I picked that name for a very specific reason. Not only is it the first question I ask each guest, but it is also a play on words because many people might believe that spending over an hour talking to an old friend about philosophy, right and wrong, and the meaning of life is a waste of time. They would ask "what's the value?" in asking these questions, because, as we made clear during this episode, there are not clear cut answers. So why bother asking? It is a fair question but I think the discussion I had with Mike illustrated (at least for me) why we need to ask them anyway. Life is hard, being a good person is hard; shit even figuring out what it means to be a good person is hard. If we have any hope of making it through this life in a way that brings us happiness and does not cause unnecessary pain to those around us, we have to dive head first into these conversations and these questions. 

Mike is someone I've known since middle school, but we have not caught up in a long time. I had a sense Mike spent a lot of time thinking about these questions and that he had some opinions on how we as humans could do better. It was really interesting to hear him talk about the evolution he has made (particularly since becoming a dad) and how now his main value is on helping society improve. This isn't the first time we've had that value chosen on the show (which I think is probably a good thing) but it is always interesting to hear each individuals logic and reasoning for that value.

We pushed ourselves to really question and test the things we were discussing, using actual scenarios to assess our thinking. We talked about corporal punishment, censorship, religion, and even moral dilemmas like choosing between saving your kid's life or saving all other kids on earth. You will hear it in our voices as we talk about this stuff, that there is a lot of strain and struggle. It is hard to think about these things and try to draw practical conclusions. It is why there is so much division and anger in the world today; this stuff is complicated and nuanced. But what Mike and I seemed to both agree on is that the best way to address that division and anger is being open to discussions like this where we are OK being wrong, we are OK not having all the answers, and we are OK doing the hard work to challenge ourselves to try to be better people (however you define "better"). Thanks a ton to Mike for being so open and thoughtful and thanks to you all for listening. I really hope you enjoy it.

One of the things I always worry about is that our minds’ number one skill is rationalizing and creating narratives that make us feel better. I worry about that because it makes me wonder if we ever accurately assess our lives and get to the truth about ourselves or if we constantly just make up stories that comfort us. This conversation with Immacula in many ways got right to the heart of this question. 

To step back for a minute and give you her story, over 20 years ago she found herself in a very dark place. She was in a relationship that was incredibly violent and took away her self-esteem and destroyed her self worth. After giving birth to her daughter though, she woke up to the fact that she wanted better for her life. She began to visualize where she wanted to be and ultimately gave birth to a new vision. Today she is the owner of Cellars International Realty with a mission to connect and nurture individuals who seem to feel lost like she was and to help women in distress secure homeownership.

We spent time talking about how she felt in that dark place, what stopped her from getting out of it, and what lessons she learned through the process. We questioned how critical direct experience and empathy is to helping people who are suffering and why she feels such a calling to do the work she does. But back to my point at the beginning, I think we also gleaned some insights about the question of creating narratives and the function that serves in our lives. 

If I wanted to be cold or cynical I could look at Immacula's situation and say she did the obvious thing. She was in a bad situation and her mind had to make sense of it. It had to believe that it happen for a reason (otherwise life is just too shitty) and so her mind translated it into her calling and purpose for life. Logically that might all be true, but what Immacula helped me realize is that it doesn't have to carry a negative connotation. I don't have to view that through a cold or cynical lens. This is what life is. We are all dealt with tons of adversity and hardships in life (even if not as extreme as Immacula), so rather than seeing our minds’ ability to rationalize and comfort us as a flaw, see it as a beautiful gift. Something that allows us to look at a life filled with so much suffering but still find a way to have optimism and happiness.

I will always worry about my mind going too far and over rationalizing or comforting, because the potential risks in that are too great. But Immacula and her story helped me to balance that fear with an appreciation for the way our minds help us overcome and rise above adversity. I hope you guys enjoy this episode and thanks as always for listening.

Larry is an author ("Nobody Knows, They Just Want You to Think They Do"), podcaster ("Nobody Knows Your Story") and a former member of the Mormon church. He describes himself as an "average white guy, with a not so average life." He came to the discussion with "authentic independence" as the value that mattered most to him. We spent a bit of time up front exploring what that meant and where it came from, but it became clear very quickly that his upbringing in the Mormon church played a large role in it. So we spent a lot of time understanding the dynamics of being in what he called a "high demand" religion, the aspects of the human psyche that draw some people to it, and the question of if religion can be functional even if you don't believe it is true. This was something that Larry had tested in a very horrific way when he lost his son a few years ago and had to grapple with the idea that he no longer believed he would be reunited with him in the after life.

I thought this conversation was really intellectually stimulating and we discussed a lot about religion and some of the logical flaws in "faith." But what I really appreciated and valued in this conversation is that we also challenged ourselves. We didn't allow ourselves to slip into the groove of believing that we "knew better" or were just smarter than those who have faith. Instead we tried to really understand if we were missing something, what someone who disagreed might say (and genuinely entertained the possibility they might be right), and questioned if religion is necessary for society to function.

 Whether you have faith, are a true non believer, or are someone who is still grappling with the question, I think this is a really cool discussion to check out. We obviously don't have the answers, but if nothing else I hope it raises some good questions and ways of thinking about the topic. Thanks as always for listening.

This is the type of thing that gets me excited. When someone comes to the discussion with a value of "kindness" and we can discuss, dissect, and debate it for 45 minutes. It seems absurd to debate whether "kindness" is a "good" thing. Why would you want to dissect that? Just assume that the kindness is always the best way. I get it, but clearly kindness doesn't seem to be the top priority for a lot of people today, so something must be off. Maybe it is human nature, maybe it is not the right "tool" for this time, or maybe there are some flaws in kindness itself. Maryam was a cool guest to explore this topic with, particularly because she had an assertiveness about the value of kindness, believing that it almost had to be the best way. 

Maryam is an anthropologist who has lived in multiple different countries (currently in Pakistan) and has deep drive to understand people and to infuse more kindness into the world. We really stuck to the kindness "thread" in the conversation and tried to explore from all angles what kindness is and how inherently functional or good it is. The hope in a conversation like this is that by hearing us probe the idea of kindness it might help uncover some insights as to why people choose not to be kind sometimes; and maybe that helps make it more real and attainable. Or maybe we discover that kindness is inherently unrealistic at scale, so we should adjust our thinking to accept that reality. 

Obviously we can't come to any concrete answers on any of this, but it seems too important not to explore and try and glean what we can. Maryam's background and thoughtfulness allowed me to gain a deeper understanding of kindness, so hopefully it does in some way for you too. I really appreciate you listening.

When I first created this show, I had a (maybe naïve) hypothesis that it would work with anyone on any topic. The thought was that at its root, if you are talking to someone about what they value most and you can follow the thread and ask good questions, it will always be interesting. TBD if that is true or not, but I think this episode was a proof point that it might be true. Nancy is the CEO & Co-Founder of a telehealth startup called Winona, a Ph.D., Biochemist with 30 years of experience, and a mom of 5 sons. When she first reached out to me, Nancy said she thought the work she was doing around menopause and hormone replacement therapy would be interesting for the podcast. I was skeptical. But she went on to talk about the impact this experience, which is misunderstood by so many people, has on woman's lives, careers, and families. So I figured we'd give it a shot.

I am glad I did, because it ended up being a really interesting and thought provoking conversation. It's easy to assume talking about menopause and woman's health might not be relevant for a lot of people, but digging deeper into topics like why we hate getting older, how society views older woman, biases in medicine, etc. actually leads to a lot of interesting observations about how humans think. In many ways this episode showcased what this show is supposed to be in its purest form: a deep, philosophical exploration into the topics that matter most to my guests-- no matter what they are.

A big thanks to Nancy for being so open about her personal experiences and why the work she is doing is so important to her. I hope you guys give it a chance and that you find it valuable/interesting too. As always, I really appreciate you listening.

Beri is the Founder and CEO of IVY, a global community with a mission of accelerating human progress and unity by enabling business leaders to elevate their lives, organizations, and societies. His programs serve 10,000 CEOs and rising leaders, providing actionable learnings and transformative peer to peer connections based on guidance from world-renowned luminaries. Beri is also one of the most optimistic people I know, who has a clear passion and thirst for life. There are certain people you meet who just emanate positivity and you can tell how much they love being alive, that is Beri.

Beri's value was "tikkun olam", which is a Hebrew phrase that means to repair or improve the world. As you can tell from his value and his business he cares a lot about driving positive change in the world. We started the conversation by understanding where this drive to improve the world came from. Beri told me about his experience growing up in Turkey and then moving to Glasgow at 11 years old. This was important because he went from being a happy, carefree kid to an outsider with no friends, who couldn't even communicate with anyone in his new school. We talked about how this experience didn't break him, but actually strengthened his belief that life is amazing.

The entire discussion was good, but what really stood out for me was the towards the end when Beri shared some frameworks he uses to guide his life. We didn't just superficially talk about them though and admire how cool they sounded conceptually. We pressed them, we questioned where the holes or challenges might be, and ultimately Beri gave some really practical insights on how to apply these frameworks in real life-- even when it is really hard. This episode was a great mix of getting to know Beri and his background in a very authentic way, plus learning some valuable lessons about living a positive, purpose driven life. I really hope you enjoy it and thanks for listening.

Mckenna is an author, podcaster, DJ, personal development coach, fashion enthusiast, and overall creative. She brought some super interesting, thought provoking points to this conversation. She started with "faith" as her value, which has come up before so I was a little worried the conversation might be redundant. I was wrong. Mckenna had a very specific view of why "faith" is so valuable in her life. Mckenna thought of faith in the very literal sense, that having a deep belief that you can achieve something is critical to being successful in life. She brought a psychology background to the conversation so she explained how she believes our subconscious minds are so focused on keeping us safe and comfortable; therefore we need to have deep faith in ourselves to overcome that and thrive in life.

What made this conversation even more impactful for me was Mckenna also has a traditional belief in "faith" as well (i.e., believing in a higher power/God that created everything). So we went on a logical exploration to understand how the two types of faith she referred to are connected and how they might impact our lives. I don't want to understate the "logical exploration" point. You will hear it in our voices as we go through the conversation, we were both learning, thinking, and questioning all of it, live, as we had the discussion. Sometimes I worry when I question too much it might come off as offensive and derail the conversation, but that was not a concern with Mckenna. We both seem to be cut from the same cloth in wanting to learn as much as we can, with very little concern about ego or preconceived beliefs. 

I know this podcast process is a long journey. I know (or hope) it will evolve and improve as I do more of them. This conversation with Mckenna gave me a lot of confidence that it is on the right track. If I can have discussions like this, with people like Mckenna, on a regular basis then I think I am doing something right in life. Thanks as always for listening and I really hope you enjoy it.