Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Dr. Derwin L. Gray, co-founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church. Since launching in 2010, Transformation Church has become a multi-ethnic, multi-generational movement impacting thousands locally and globally. In this conversation, Derwin tackles one of the most pressing—and often avoided—questions facing church leaders today: what are we actually multiplying?

Are we forming disciples of Jesus—or unintentionally shaping people more through culture, politics, and media than through the gospel? Derwin challenges leaders to examine the deeper currents shaping their churches and to recover a bold, Christ-centered vision for discipleship.

To learn more about Transformation Church and Dr. Derwin L. Gray, his teaching, and resources, visit transformationchurch.tc and derwinlgray.com. Plus, pre-order his book, It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered.

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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, so glad that you decided to tune in to today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to this. I had a fragment of a conversation with a dear friend at the Exponential Conference and I want to have more of that today with you listening in. And this is a conversation that I know is impacting people. I think 100% of our church is in the country today. It’s something that we all are seeing. It’s impacting us. We’ve got to be thinking about this.

Rich Birch — Honored to have Dr. Derwin Gray with us, incredible leader from Transformation Church. He and his wife, Vicki, co-founded the church in 2010. It’s a multi-ethnic, multi-generational, mission-shaped community community with two locations in South Carolina, as well as Church Online. He’s an award-winning author of multiple books. He’s been on the podcast in the past and is one of the people who, he’s called me out on the podcast before, and I have taken those lessons with me. And so I’m I’m hoping that happens with you today. Derwin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Hey, man, thank you. So good to be with you.

Rich Birch — No, it’s it’s honest. You know, been multiple times you’ve been on the show and I I’ve walked away being like, man, okay, Derwin just, he’s just pushed me and and got me to think different, which I really appreciate that. So for folks that don’t know about Transformation, kind of tell us a little bit about the church and give us the context you’re in, that sort of thing.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So ah my wife and I co-planted Transformation Church in 2010 in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. And so neither my wife and nor I grew up in church, and both of us came to faith in our mid to late 20s, and primarily through people at work. There was a woman at my wife’s job who shared Christ with her. I had a teammate named Steve Grant, with the Indianapolis Colts, where I played in the NFL. We called him the naked preacher because after practice, he’d dry off, take a shower, wrap a towel around his waist, and he’d share the gospel. And over five years, I came to faith. My wife came to faith before me.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And all we knew was this. If Jesus is this incredible, this forgiving, this gracious, this is the greatest news there is in the world. And so we didn’t know what words like evangelism and discipleship meant. All we knew was this. I want to know him. I want to make him known. I want to know his word.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so that was in 1997, 1998. We moved to Charlotte, North Carolina to play for the Carolina Panthers, and I got injured. And so all I could do was read my Bible, rehab my knee. And the following year, both my wife and I said, you know what? I think my NFL time is done.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — What are we going to do? We don’t know. So I got an invitation to speak at a youth event to share my testimony. And I said, well, what is that? They were like, a testimony is where you share your story of how you met Christ and what what took place. So I did that. People started calling me.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And in 1999, other Christians says, you guys need a nonprofit organization. You know, we’re like, what does that mean? So we started a ministry called One Heart at a Time. I would travel and speak. She would organize everything. We served at our church. Well, the longer we did that, we saw incredible fruit, but we also saw that wherever I would preach, it was ethnically segregated. It was it was really weird, right?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’m like, wait a second. America is integrated, but the church is basically segregated. And so I began to ask questions and I got lousy answers. But as we read the Bible, it was like the early church was Jews and Gentiles. That’s what it was. It was a multi-ethnic church. Jesus not only forgave sins, but he created a family with different colored skins. Not only is that the future of the church in Revelation 7:9, but that’s the present reality of the church that intrinsic to the gospel is ethnic reconciliation. What good would it be Jesus forgives you but don’t love your brother and sister? So the cross is vertical and horizontal.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we were frustrated. And then we just sense God say, well, you can criticize or you can create. And so ultimately that led to planting Transformation Church in the south area of Charlotte, North Carolina, where actually physically in what’s called Indian Land, South Carolina, and our other campus is in Lake Wiley, South Carolina, but it’s really the greater Charlotte area.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And our church is more ethnically diverse than our community. And I want to be very, very clear. One of the reasons why we are ethnically diverse is because of the good news of Jesus. Like I explained, Jesus not only forgives sins, but he creates a family with different colored skins. And so for us, ethnic unity in Christ not only enhances our discipleship, but it enhances our witness to a looking and watching world which is filled with so much division.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And over the last 16 years, God has done miraculous things. We’ve seen 9,000 people come to faith, thousands be baptized. God has given us massive influence. We also have what’s called the Multi-Ethnic Church Roundtable, where we’ve equipped 800 leaders from around the world to do gospel-centered multi-ethnic ministry. We’re also in the process, Leon’s Crump and I, of launching what’s called the Promise Collective, which is going to be an intentionally multi-ethnic gospel-centered church planting network.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So a lot of wonderful things are taking place. And we think it’s pretty cool that God planted us in the state of South Carolina where the first shots of the Civil War were fired. And God has used this church here to influence not only the church in America, but even around the world.

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we’re grateful.

Rich Birch — Well, I, yeah, there’s I respect you on so many levels. And, and, you know, they these issues around being a multi-ethnic church are, you know, at the core of that. And just to respect you on for lots of what you’ve done. and And we ended up at this in this conversation, just to kind of bring everybody up to speed, we ended up in this conversation at Exponential that I leaned forward as just declaring my, ah you know, a little bit about me for folks that are listening in. So I am Canadian, don’t hold it against me.

Rich Birch — But I’ve served mostly American churches in the churches I work with. And most of the 95% of the listeners of this podcast are in the States. I was in the States for a bunch of years. And that may become a little more obvious as we’re talking here why that’s why I’m talking about that context. But one of the things in this conversation that I heard you, the question you asked, which made me lean forward and then where it kind of unfolded from there is you asked the question, what are we actually multiplying? Exponential is obviously the global conference for multiplication, but you were pushing us to think about what are we actually multiplying? What is the the core of that? Can you unpack that for us?What were you thinking of when we started talking about that that day?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, sure, sure. Just to provide either even a little bit more context is it was a gathering of of very large churches.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And the question is what’s going well, what’s not going well? And so typically in those types of rooms, I like to listen. And so as I was listening, I was hearing no disrespect, but a lot of the same.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so I kind of waited for everybody to to finish what they were saying. And I said, here’s something that Transformation Church does well, is we are equipping our people to stand against secular progressivism and Christian nationalism. And I said, what are we exactly multiplying? Because the state of the church the United States America is not good. It’s not healthy. It is divided. In many cases, it is it’s mean. Shallow theology, not loving our neighbors as God commands us to be loved.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So so my question was, are we just putting up more boxes for consumers to come in and consume because we have good music, good human-centered preaching. You know, we’re not going to mess with your idols. We’re not going to topple your idols at all. And yeah, you can invite your friends when we get more campuses. Because if that’s just what we’re doing, don’t sign me up for that. I don’t I don’t I don’t want any parts of that. That’s how we got to where we are now. And so you as a Canadian, here in America, the witness of the church is not very good. Like when I talk to people who are unbelievers, I have to untangle…

Rich Birch — Right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …politics from the gospel because unfortunately there’s been an unholy wedding, particularly on the far right with aspects of Christianity, which has distorted and deformed. I think the secular progressivism is pretty easy to see, but I think the Christian nationalism is a lot harder.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Now, let me define what I mean by that. So first of all, Loving your country is a good thing. That’s called loving your neighbors. You love yourself. So my fourth grandfather, Moses Davis, fought for the Union, the colored cavalry of Virginia…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …against the treasonous Confederate whatever it was. So in my blood is patriotism for my nation. America’s my home. But to love my neighbors, I love myself means not only do love America, but I love the entire world. And then as a Christian, we have a global body that we love. There are more followers of Jesus of color outside of America than the United States of America.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Now, what do I mean by Christian nationalism? This is what I mean. Christian nationalism is the attempt to fuse the identity and mission of the church with the identity and power of a nation state, treating the nation as a primary vehicle of God’s purposes rather than seeing God’s kingdom as a global Jesus-centered reality that transcends all nations.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — By that definition, Christian nationalism is a heresy. Because it basically says, if you don’t think like us, you can’t be a follower of Jesus. And so you’re adding to the works of Christ. And so Christian nationalism has infiltrated much of what I would say the majority culture, Caucasian church in America. Not all, but a lot. Where Christians, what what it means to follow Jesus has turned into a far right, almost authoritarianism versus, no, no, you have the right to vote in the United States of America. But as Christians, we don’t have a right to idolize nor demonize those who vote differently than us.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’m not sure Americans know this, but most people in the world are not Republican or Democrat.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So if you say your faith is based on what you vote for, you’re adding to the work of Christ.

Rich Birch — So, so Derwin, I appreciate you. So I’ve not heard a lot of people talk about this. This seems to be, I don’t know, it seems like something happened post COVID and the church in general, there was this like shakeup in the church in general where, you know, lots of people ended up in different places and it was like, we’ve become more divided than ever before. And I do think that there’s a significant dividing line at or close to what you’re talking about here, that it’s like, there’s a, there’s a new voice around Christian nationalism that seems to be gaining influence. Is that, is that, is that ah a false perception or is that the way you see it as well?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — No, you are 100% right. And it is a well-orchestrated, well-funded plan. With social media and the rise of social media influencers, paid propagandists can go on and infuse their propaganda into people immediately.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And here’s and here’s the thing. Populism does not require much intellect. All it requires is somebody to be angry at who’s taking from you. So the more divided we are as people, the more the oligarchs have power and the money that they make.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — They own the social media. They own the algorithms. I mean, for goodness sakes, Elon Musk promised people a million dollars to vote in Pennsylvania for the election. How is that even legal? Right.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So people are being inundated. Like we have family members that don’t even talk to each other anymore because they have red hat or a blue shirt, right? And so it has been in increasingly effective. But here’s the thing, Rich, that’s so wild to me. The admin the the Trump administration greenlit the FDA approval of an abortion pill. And I don’t hear any evangelical saying anything about it.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And even when you look at the Supreme Court now saying states can choose whether you do abortion or not, that’s pro-choice. You know, what used to be the Republican Party, small government, family values, those things are way gone.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so not only has Christian nationalism changed like, or not only has this current administration changed what the Republican Party was, but in many cases, it’s changed even so much of the church. And it is wild to listen to people in 2016 who said one thing, who say a totally different thing now.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — It’s hard.

Rich Birch — Well, yeah. And I so I think the thing you’ve, you’re putting a finger on and it’s, I appreciate you being willing to talk about and unpack it is there’s definitely like a broader cultural conversation that’s happening around these issues. That is for sure. We’re seeing that. And that’s having an impact on our ability to disciple the people in our churches or our people are being discipled by social media, by the algorithm, by YouTube And that can create or is creating a discipleship crisis in many of our churches. How do you try to find the line between those two to say, hey, we’re going to talk about the discipleship stuff…

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …without getting dragged in on the you know the exterior? How do we how do we draw those lines in a way that makes sense?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so what I would say is we don’t have a discipleship problem. We have a wrong discipleship problem.

Rich Birch — Okay, that’s good.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Because somebody is making students out of somebody.

Rich Birch — Right, sure.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so are we becoming students of Jesus? that’s That’s the issue. And so what I say is this, how a person votes, that’s their conscience. But how do you treat the people who don’t vote like you?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So for example, research shows black Americans are more socially conservative, more biblically committed than white Americans. But 90%, I’m sorry, but black American Christians, but black American Christians, 90% vote for Democrats. So how can you be more socially conservative, more biblically committed, but you vote for Democrat?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Well, because they don’t take everything that’s in the Democratic Party, just like most people who voted for Trump don’t take everything with him. And so we have to give each other the latitude and the grace. And there’s also pro-life Democrats. And not everybody who voted for Trump is evil. Not everybody who votes Democrat is evil. But the powers that be want us divided.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And when I and when I talk to my friends from Canada, when I talk to my friends that are pastors from around the world, Norway, different parts of Europe, Australia, England, and they’re going, what has happened to you guys?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I can tell you what’s what’s taken place is our faith is being distorted and driving it is fear and hatred.

Rich Birch — Yeah. So I would echo that. The joke I’ve made, both with American leaders and leaders from other parts of the world, is there is a segment of the body of Christ that seems very angry about the love of God. Like they’re and they’re very fearful. Like it’s all it’s all anger and fear driven. And I don’t know whether, and it probably is related to the algorithms, but like we’re hearing from these people so much more than, than we used to. It used to be an echo chamber of people that lived in so much fear, but now it’s just out there. It seems to be in, in our, you know, in our feeds all the time.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, what used to be on the fringes is now on the main street, right? And so we need to re-gospel ourselves. We need a greater commitment to Christ. So, for example, life in the womb is precious and sacred. That’s not conservative. That’s gospel. That’s biblical.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Caring for the dignity of undocumented people in America is not liberal. That’s gospel. Wanting border control is not conservative. That is understanding that a nation has to have borders to flourish.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Believing that marriage is between a man and a woman, we believe that’s biblical. But loving and respecting LGBTQ people is not liberal. Loving my neighbors as I love myself. And if I have any hope of anybody ah coming to Jesus, they’re not going come to Jesus because I’m yelling at them and I’m angry. I’m going to love them and pursue them just like we’ve done here at our church.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so I feel like what we’ve done in in in the church is we’ve taken a 250 year old country called America. And then specifically the last 10 years, we’ve made that the hermeneutic to understand the gospel.

Rich Birch — Yeah, right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — We’ve made that the lenses that we look through to determine the gospel. Whereas what I’m saying, let’s go back to the text. Let’s go back to the early church, the book of Acts, Paul’s letters, the gospels. That’s where our faith comes from.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Like I have lobbied on Capitol Hill with Republicans and Democrats about immigration reform. We need border security, but we can also secure the dignity of human beings, especially human beings who are undocumented and don’t have a record against them. Right. So there has to be a process to have strong borders, but also to hold to people’s hearts.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — But but at the end of the day, right at the end of the day, we are people of the Lamb, not the elephant or the donkey.

Rich Birch — So good. So good. So what’s the hardest part about leading in a church that really refuses to be captured by either side? I feel like there’s pressure on from both political parties to they, you know, I think somewhere along the line, they realize, wow, there’s a lot of power in these churches. And how do we you know, how do we kind of infiltrate or how do we gain that? What’s it like to lead a church that’s trying to, that’s refusing to be captured by both sides is wants to keep Jesus ahead. What does that cost? How is that, you know, what are some of the pressures of that? What have been some telltale signs for you as you’ve led at Transformation in this front?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, um i would i would I would say, Rich, sometimes I’ll get a critical email and a eventually those people will leave. But but but but for the most part, I mean, we’re 16 years in, it’s our ethos, it’s our character. People know who we are. They know why we are. And so like we’re flourishing, we’re growing. It’s beautiful.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — There’s a matter of fact, I got some messages earlier today just saying, hey, thank you. Like I was just about done with Christianity and I found Transformation Church, right? I mean, this Jesus, you’re this is what I want to be a part of. So I think respecting and loving all people, even though you disagree with them. And the thing that I said, I did a series in 2024 in the fall before the election on on the Beatitudes.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And my whole thing was how you vote is up to your conscious. How you treat people is not up for debate. We’re called to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. And so in our church, I’m sure we got people all over the political spectrum. I’m a registered independent myself.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — But something that I think really landed well with our people is this: 99.9% of all followers of Jesus for 2,000 years and even now have never voted Republican and have never voted Democrat.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s good.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Our faith is in Christ and Christ alone. And America is what’s called a constitutional republic democracy. It is not a theocracy. It is governed by a constitution, not the Bible. And so, yes, I want believers in place not to do some kind of spiritual Sharia law, but to make sure that the Constitution is upheld, which gives life and liberty and justice, not for some, but for all.

Rich Birch — What would you say, you know, I’ve often thought around this, these, this issue and we’re kind of related issues. I have to think back to Billy Graham and I think like, man, we don’t know what, don’t what he’d be doing today. Like what would, I’ve heard this story that and in the fifties he gathered a group of what at the time, they you know they self afflicted they gave themselves the title of fundamentalist and they said, hey, we gotta stop calling ourselves fundamentalist because that word is so loaded in our culture. It feels like evangelical is like that today.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah.

Rich Birch — It is when people ask me, are you evangelical? I’ll say, well, it depends on what you mean by evangelical because it has so much freight behind it. Do you think there is a place for kind of a broader discussion? How, how can we continue to try to create a middle here that where people can actually try to shed these, like you say, the Lamb and the donkey and, or the, the, the elephant and the donkey and, and focus on the Lamb. How do we do that going forward? How do we create those kinds of places where those kinds of conversations can continue to happen?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, you know, so let me answer the first question first is when I preached in Norway a few years ago, the people said, thank you for being so evangelical. And it had nothing to do with politics. So the term evangelical comes from the Greek word, which means good news. So it’s never meant to be a political voting block.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — It’s never meant to be an ethnicity. It is good news people. So in Europe, I say I’m evangelical because it goes well. Here in America, I say I am shaped by the gospel. I’m a Christian that’s shaped by the gospel.

Rich Birch — That’s good language.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I love God and I love my neighbors. I love myself. So I think we have a fundamental gospel problem in the American church. If you simply think the good news is Jesus died for your sins, now you don’t go to hell, then your discipleship is going to be very reductionistic. It’s going to be very individualistic.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, his ascension and then sending the Spirit, is not only do we spend eternity with him, but as brothers and sisters, we’re equally righteous, equally redeemed, equally the temple of the Holy Spirit, equally God’s children. So if all those things are true equally, then by definition, we are the body of Christ. So if you hurt, then I hurt, but we don’t think that way.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we have to change the way we think. Paul says in Philippians 2.3, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but consider others better than yourselves. Verse five is “for you have the mind of Christ”. And so what we’ve been able to do here at Transformation Church is really move people deeper to the gospel. If you listen to one of my messages, you will hear gospel. That’s why we are the way we are. And the gospel challenges idols.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — When President Obama was president, I would get emails, “Oh you must be a Republican.” And then when President Trump, “You must be a Democrat.” I’m like, no, I’m an independent, but I’m called to be prophetic and to equip us to not be captivated by the zeitgeist…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …the spirit of the age. When the church loses her prophetic witness, we’ve lost everything.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that that that names something that you put a finger on there, on something that I’d love you to unpack a little bit more. How do you do that as a pastor? Because I’ve seen you do that consistently. It’s like, how how do we be that prophetic voice, speak with clarity to ultimately point people back to Jesus, not be captured by just the winds of the day?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Be courageously compassionate.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Be courageously compassionate. I believe, you know, so I have, I have, I have talked to pastors who lead churches that may be, you know, center a little bit left. And well, if I talk about this issue too much, people may leave. Then I’ve heard other people like, well, if I talk about about this, the MAGA people may leave. And it’s like, well, Are you concerned about people leaving or are you concerned about honoring the call that God has given you?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And one day you have to face him and you’re going to say, well, you know, what Lord, I was afraid people were going to leave. Like you can be courageous and compassionate simultaneously.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So I, there are people on both sides of the aisle that passionately and deeply love Jesus, but have different perspectives politically. Now, Christian nationalism, that is a whole different species that that has to be lovingly challenged. And my job at Transformation Church is to equip our people and to be a shepherd because there are false prophets and wolves that are coming.

Rich Birch — There’s a ton here. I really appreciate that. For a pastor that’s listening in today that’s thinking, man, I look at my people and I think maybe I they have been discipled more by cable news than by scripture. And I maybe haven’t done everything I could could have done. I haven’t been clear with compassion. I’ve just been, I’ve just kind of let this happen. What would you say some of the first steps that you would say for a for a leader like that?

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, pray, repent, pray, repent. Take your elders and your staff through a book by Preston Sprinkle called “Exiles in Babylon” or the book by Michael Byrd and N.T. Wright. Both of them deal with you know how to be a faithful witness in this time of political division. But before you go out and share, make sure that you are equipped. But also choose not to be partisan.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Rich, the Epstein Files is one of the biggest cover-ups in American history. We’re talking about precious kids who were taking advantage of. And I mean, where is the prophetic voice that this is wrong, regardless of who’s in it? This is wrong and it demands justice. We as God’s people are going to be held accountable to equip this. Like, this is serious. Like, I’ve heard people say, well, there’s bigger problems in the world. No, there’s not.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Derwin, this has been fantastic. I want to point people towards, you’ve got a new book that’s coming out. That’s like like a huge left-hand turn here, but just looking at it, I think this could is is connected, obviously, to what we’re talking about in today’s conversation. It comes out this fall.

Rich Birch — It’s called it’s a time or “It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered”. Tell us a little bit about this book, and I and I want to get people to you know actually pre-order this thing.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So basically the last seven years, what I have seen from followers of Christ is we’re the walking wounded. We are, we are just stuck. We have allowed our traumas, our histories, our pains, our failures, the way we’ve been hurt to keep us in a position of hurt. And we’ve just circled and circled. And then, a lot of preaching deals with behavior modification and doesn’t get to the root. And so I’ve just been like, you know what, God, I want to help God’s people. Right. And it starts with helping myself.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And what I do is I really take a theology of who we are in Christ. I take neuroscience and psychology and marry them in spiritual formation

Rich Birch — Love it.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And it’s by far the best book that I’ve ever written. I can’t wait for people to see the endorsements from people like Dr. Daniel Amen, Craig Groeschel, Christine Caine. It’s by far the most important book I’ve ever written and the best book I’ve ever written. And I believe that it can really help people heal. Like really understanding that trauma gets in our nervous system. It’s not just think harder, do more. Like we have to learn how this is embodied inside of us.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so, man, it transformed me writing it. And what I do is I walk the people through an acronym. The the book is in four parts and the acronym HEAL. H stands for honest about what what happened. E, expect hard. A, accept what happened and L, live from love, not for love. And I share some incredible stories in there. And so, yeah, I’m really, really looking forward to people healing.

Rich Birch — Well, yeah, I would encourage people to, we’ll link to that in the show notes and all that. But I think it’s connected in that I think I think the extremes on both ends politically, they’ve picked up on kind of the pain in the zeitgeist. And they’ve they’ve said, hey, the solution is is is the other side is the enemy and we got to do something to tear them down. And we know that just won’t work. At the end of the day, it’s Jesus transforming our lives. It’s him restoring us to who we are. And I think this could be a great tool for folks as they’re wrestling with that. So I’m excited for that book to come out. Looking forward to that. And we’ll we’ll link to all that.

Rich Birch — Any kind of final words as we wrap up today? I really appreciate you unpacking this a bit more and taking some time to, you know, kind of let us chat a little bit about it.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, two thoughts. Jesus said in Matthew 5:44 and 45, bless those who persecute you. And I said, love your enemies. And then Jesus said, you will know my disciples because they love one another. Refuse to let anger and hatred and division guide you.

Rich Birch — That’s good. So good. You said two things. You had two you that and one other thing.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Well, yeah, it was it was Matthew 5 and you’re on…yeah.

Rich Birch — Oh, I see. Right, right, right. Yep. Okay. That’s good. Nice. Where if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Just as we wrap up today’s call conversation.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, just go to derwinlgray.com, derwinlgray.com

Rich Birch — Nice. That’s great. Dr. Derwin, I just want to honor you. You’re an incredible leader. Thank you for being here today and helping us think through these issues. Thank you.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Thank you, my friend.

Rich Birch — Take care.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Appreciate you.