unSeminary Podcast

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Adam Weber, founder and lead pastor of Embrace Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. What began in 2006 with 32 people has grown into a multisite church reaching thousands each week. Along the way, Adam has experienced explosive growth, painful leadership setbacks, seasons of rebuilding, and renewed momentum.

Has your church hit a plateau after years of growth? Are you carrying more than your team can sustain? Wondering how greater clarity and healthier leadership rhythms could help your church move forward? Tune in as Adam shares lessons from Embrace’s lowest season and explains how greater self-awareness, organizational focus, and the Traction framework helped reshape both his leadership and the church.

To learn more about Adam Weber or connect, visit adamweber.com or find him on Instagram at @adamaweber. To learn more about Embrace Church, its campuses, and how the church is relentlessly reaching the next person for Jesus, visit iamembrace.com.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, lean in on today’s conversation, ah because I know you’re going to have some stuff you can pull out of this for your church. There’s some part of this discussion that’s going to help you as you think through leading in the season you’re currently in.

Rich Birch — We’re honored to have Adam Weber with us. He’s the founder and lead pastor of Embrace Church, which began in 2006, with just 32 people gathered at a worship service. Today, it’s a few more than 32. Embrace is one church with, if I’m counting correctly, five campuses worshiping with thousands each week around Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Outreach Magazine named these guys, Embrace, one of the fastest growing churches in the country in 2026. Adam is the author of Talking with God and Love Has a Name. He hosts the Life Between Sundays podcast while he and his wife, Becky, have four kids. Adam, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Adam Weber — Oh, Rich, huge honor. I know I said this before to you. You are someone that I’ve looked to for wisdom, encouragement, insight for many years. And so this for me is a huge honor. And I do I just really don’t take it lightly. Honestly, if it was anything else today, I’m headed to the cabin right after this. If it was anything else, I’d be like, ah, let’s pass on that. But for me, like for me, this is one of those like key true honors. And so I just thank you big time. I’m just on behalf, honestly, of so many people who listen just like me and read your writing. Thank you.

Rich Birch — That’s kind of you to say. That’s really kind of you to say. This is between you and the cabin. So we’ll make this quick. We’ll get this. We’ll move this on. I don’t want to…

Adam Weber — No. No, there is zero rush. Zero rush.

Rich Birch — No, I’m just kidding. That’s that’s great. That’s fantastic. So why don’t you kind of give us the story, the the Embrace story. It’s like 20 years in a few minutes.

Adam Weber — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Take us back to 2026, back to those 32 people. What did that look like? And then paint the picture of where Embrace is today.

Adam Weber — Oh, so I always, when I encourage pastors, I’m like, do the opposite of what we did. So I was going into my third and final year at Asbury Seminary. So I was living in Kentucky and my pastor who led me to Christ, led me to my wife, led me into ministry, led me to Asbury, had the initial idea of a new church in Sioux Falls.

Adam Weber — He’s the one who who reached out to me and said, hey, we’re we’re thinking about starting a church in Sioux Falls. What do you think? And I’m like, I think Sioux Falls has enough churches.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — Like I don’t think… and and then who’s gonna pastor this thing? He’s like, that’s why I’m calling you.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — Like I don’t think and and then who’s gonna pastor this thing And I was like, ah, I’m not in, I’m actually not interested. We love Kentucky, the weather, the history, so much of it. We love. So we had no plans of coming back to South Dakota. And he ah told us to pray about it. We didn’t.

Adam Weber — And then he found then we then he found out I was coming back to do my brother’s brother’s wedding. Uh, so the week of us coming back, he said, Hey, how about you send an email and I’ll send an email. We’ll see who shows up. And I’m like, nobody’s going to show up. It’s going to be Labor Day weekend. Nobody’s going to come. I’m not even interested in being this thing. So I was like, this is the perfect way to kind of get them off my case.

Adam Weber — So we sent a couple of emails. That night, September 4, 2006, 32 people showed up. And I was depressed cause 32 showed up. I was, I was hoping for zero and, and…

Rich Birch — Oh, no. Now we got to do something.

Adam Weber — …and my, my, my pastor was pumped. So he, once a month, he’s like, Adam, once a month, we’re going to fly you back for services and we’ll just see how this goes now. Now, quick note. At the time, were United Methodist. And so we had 40 years worth of failed church starts in North and South Dakota. And so they were very reluctant, you know, specifically going to be a new seminary grad.

Adam Weber — So we kind of needed to prove to the denomination that people would come. So that’s why we started once a month, even though I was in seminary. So I’d come back every time, I’m like, this is such a bad idea. I mean literally months into it I’m like this is a bad idea. And but I just didn’t have the courage to tell my pastor no. He’s just an amazing, godly man. Zero. He put zero pressure on me, which made it even harder for me to say no.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — And so once a month I’d come back and then sure enough, I ended up getting appointed to start this church. So I came back in 2007, we kept once a week worship. We kept once a month worship.

Adam Weber — In March of ’08 we went to weekly Sunday evening services. And we struggled to grow. We were just struggling to get above 100. I mean, we were just, we were almost closed. About once a quarter, the denomination would say, We just don’t think you’re financially sustainable. We don’t think this is going to work. Even early, early on, I can remember a one denominational leader said, when this church fails. What are we going to do?

Rich Birch — Oh wow. Wow.

Adam Weber — And so that was kind of the mindset going into it. So September of ’09. Three years in. We moved in through the most insane circumstances, we got our own space on a Sunday morning. And in one morning, we doubled in size.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — And so we went from barely surviving to flourishing. And every week we were seeing more and more new faces. That really began our first season of incredible growth. I was, ah you know I you know, I started Embrace when I was 24. So that would have been three years. I’d have been 27, 28, man. And I was, I was super unhealthy.

Adam Weber — You try for three years to get it to grow. And then it finally grows and you don’t know when the water is going to shut off. So you just keep running faster. And so that was just a really hard season. But really away from that, Embrace has always been the most unlikely of people. Gosh, I feel like if… ah yeah Yeah, it’s just the most unlikely of people to be in church.

Adam Weber — So I went to college in Sioux Falls. And I always said early on, if you would have told me you’re going to start a church, who’s going to come to your church? I would have listed off all the guys that were in bible studies with me blah blah blah. And if you were like, who’s the most unlikely of people? I’d have been like, ah, a lot of the football players and you know, whatever. From that first group, only like one or two came. Because they already had churches and were connected and whatever. From the second group, all of them came.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — And so from really the get-go, it’s just been this most unlikely of people.

Adam Weber — And so since then, we are now we have three physical campuses. We have two God Behind Bars locations. ahRight now, we are we just announced earlier this week that we’re launching a fourth physical campus that will be our new broadcast campus…

Rich Birch — It’s amazing.

Adam Weber — …over double the size of our current broadcast. And um still today, it just continues to be the most unlikely of people. And um I feel like we don’t take ourselves seriously, but we take God very seriously. And I think the thing that people are like, what is the thing? I think it’s just really trying to be as relatable as possible. And just trying to make as much of Jesus as we possibly can.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Adam Weber — And for for for me, the more I follow Jesus, the more I realize how wonderful and and grace-filled and loving and truth-filled he is. And so it’s just trying to share that as as clearly and as simply as we can. So I’m talking too much.

Rich Birch — No, no, not at all. That’s great. That’s so good. You know, we track pretty closely the Outreach 100 list here at unSeminary. We look at it and our…

Adam Weber — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …you know, the secret we find a lot of guests there. And um when, you know, I was looking at this, there’s this interesting kind of blip of history where Embrace was on the list 10 years ago, ’15, ’16, and then there was a gap, and then congratulations, you’re back on for 2026, which caught my attention, or 2025 caught my attention.

Rich Birch — And I thought, okay, that’s interesting. Like, I wonder what the story is there, you know, when it’s just little… you know, buttons or whatever it’s like it looks really antiseptic on the website. But am I framing that incorrectly?

Adam Weber — No, no.

Rich Birch — Talk me through what happened between these two, ah you know, showing up on this list.

Adam Weber — Very, that’s, you you’re you’re highlighting something that’s very, very true. I first got to say, ah I just shared this with my team on Monday. My first full-time hire, his name’s Travis Waltner. Yeah, he’s always so good at saying, hey, Adam, I know this, you’re fired up about this. Can you share why with our team this matters? And something he had never heard before, I said, I can remember every year when the Outreach 100 came out and I was this new pastor who didn’t have anybody that he could connect with who had led a large thriving church.

Adam Weber — I mean, there’s at that time in Sioux Falls, there just wasn’t really many. Now there’s several, which is awesome. And so I would get that Outreach magazine. And those pastors, I would try to find 5 to 10 churches that were similar to to Embrace, or where I saw us going. And those people never met me or I never talked with them, but they became mentors of mine.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. That’s cool.

Adam Weber — And so it’s where I learn from. And so I just told the team, I’m like, it’s so cool to think that like God is now using us and hopefully we can be a blessing to others. Because it’s cool to see fruit grow on your own trees…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — …but it’s even it’s even better when you help others grow fruit on their trees.

Rich Birch — Oh, so true.

Adam Weber — So that blip that blip though, so growing, growing really from I would say from 2009 to 2016. I mean, just constant growth. At one year we were number four on Outreach, whatever. So I mean, just like enormous growth. We plateaued. And I’m going to talk very unfiltered about myself. As an Enneagram three achiever, plateauing is not your favorite thing.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Adam Weber — And so I’ve never been a yeller. I’ve never been, I feel like I could say this confidently, never been an angry boss. But ah something I’ve learned out about myself is I wear people out. You can still be super non-angry and still wear people out.

Adam Weber — And so I didn’t do a great job of caring for my team. I love people. It’s why I I literally, I just love people. I got a steak at a grocery store for lunch today and ended up talking to all these random people. It was my favorite thing. I love people…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — …but I haven’t always been good at loving my team. And so we went through, I wasn’t caring for my team.

Adam Weber — And because of that, someone began to care for my team that was taking the church another direction. And so I let that person go. That’s the only time I’ve let someone go in the history of Embrace. And when I did, again, this is very unfiltered, 10 out of 16 people that were closest with me left.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Adam Weber — Including one of my, including just a very, very, very close friend. And so, man. It was brutal.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — And out of that, hundreds of people left Embrace. And it wasn’t just people. It was people that I had literally left date nights with my wife to care for ’em. And it was it was people that I skipped, you know, being with my kids to meet with them. And so it was it was brutal. Lowest point in my life, including even harder than losing my brother unexpectedly two years ago.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — With my brother, it was all one feeling, grief.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — Which is horrible, you know?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — But with that. There was so many feelings. I mean, I was done. I was I was done. I was done with everything except Jesus. When it came to ministry, I mean, I wanted to give up and then…And then um I stuck with it. I don’t know how. I honestly, looking back, 2018, I literally don’t know how I survived.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — And again, I want to make sure I take ownership. I had a lot to learn about myself. And it’s it’s it was my leadership that allowed the situation that happened with with the person um so that’s that’s not on them that’s all me And so. But yeah, we we we it was rock bottom. It was brutal.

Adam Weber — And then we just started. It was just like one foot in front of the next.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — And we just we I mean, it was just like you began to see some resemblance of daylight. I mean, it was so bad, I can’t even tell you. And it’s in Sioux Falls is not that large of a town.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — And so it’s like, I thought every everything that God had done was over. I mean no good days were ahead of us. I mean I couldn’t see anything. And then just little by little. And little by little and little by little. And then we started getting momentum right before COVID.

Rich Birch — Classic. Classic.

Adam Weber — So this, this is what’s kind of crazy. And I, I’m not, I don’t want to, I’m not devaluing COVID whatsoever, but like, so away from the the tragedy of COVID. COVID for me as a pastor was a cakewalk. I’m like, we could not have services for the next 15 years, and this would be nothing compared to 2018.

Rich Birch — Right. Okay. Yes.

Adam Weber — And so what was kind of cool was I was able to be. And so many hit people had done this for me, but I was able to be a light to other pastors. Because they hadn’t gone through 2018. So it was really cool because for me, I couldn’t have been more at peace during it. Because, ah again, I was just glad that we were healthy.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — And so it ended up being really cool. And then when we came out of COVID, we started a process called Traction, which I just have to mention. Traction, away from God’s kindness and amazing people, Traction. It’s been huge. Since 2021 we started Traction in August and that just helped us focus and now we’re just seeing, I’ve never had this much fun in my life.

Rich Birch — Traction like the Larry Bossidy, that book?

Adam Weber — So, yeah, it’s so it’s the it’s an EOS.

Rich Birch — EOS, yep.

Adam Weber — It’s a lot, a lot of, a lot of businesses use it, a lot of nonprofits use it, a person on our lead team.

Rich Birch — Yep, yep, yep.

Adam Weber — We were just trying to figure out, so what are we doing?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Adam Weber — You know, like COVID had just come. And so it was a, if you’re going to start over on your strategy, it’s a perfect time to do it.

Rich Birch — Right. Might as well.

Adam Weber — So they just said, I think we should go through Traction. And I’m like, I have no idea what that is. And he’s like, well. All these major businesses in Sioux Falls are all Traction businesses.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Adam Weber — And I’m like, no way. And this nonprofit’s a Traction nonprofit.

Adam Weber — So we looked into it. They’d helped us set a 10-year goal. And then off of that, a three-year goal, one-year goal, and then every 90 days you have rocks.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Weber — Before that though, I should say, they re…like is your vision statement truly your vision statement. So ours was reaching the next person for Jesus. This sounds so small. One guy on our team who’s not an Enneagram three, he said, I don’t think that’s accurate to who we are.

Adam Weber — And I was like. What do you mean? And he’s like. That just seems seems way more chill than what we are. And I was like, okay, what do you mean? He’s like, we’re like relentless about it. We’re like, if someone needed help and they didn’t know Jesus, we would do everything we could to get to them. We wouldn’t just try to reach them. We would relentlessly.

Adam Weber — And it was so crazy coming from that individual specifically that I said, I feel like that’s so true. We added that in. And then you set kind of like, what are your distinct things that separate you maybe from others? So ours is relatability is our number one.

Rich Birch — yep

Adam Weber — And that just really dialed us in. And even just one small thing, even like who’s our target audience, we we kind of set it.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — And we said young families was in it. Well, young families was in it when we first started Embrace. And we kind of went away from it. Because, you know, I had young kids that needed a nursery back then, but now I don’t. And so now.a nursery had become optional, because it’s like, oh, it’s not a big deal. Well, when you have little kids, it’s a huge deal. And when you have little kids, it’s a huge deal, and you’re the lead pastor, you have nursery and everything because you want your wife there, and you want other people to be able to come. So there was a couple of things that we just got off track a little bit that we just dialed into. So I just need to say that.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I do want to dig into Traction a little bit more, but I’d love to take a step back and talk about your own journey around you know, just having to process your ownership of 2018. And what was, what did that look like? Like, how did you find some health around that? Was it, you know, did someone challenge you? Did you end up getting some help? What did that look like to to actually try to process through that.

Adam Weber — I…

Rich Birch — I like that sound that’s like, oh I don’t really want to talk about this.

Adam Weber — Yeah, yeah. Forever. For for me…um I can’t remember one time the Lord is as clear as I could hear it said, Lord said to me: Adam, I’ve been trying to address this people pleaser inside of you since you were a little boy.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — And and whether or not I caused this situation to happen is irrelevant. I’m most definitely gonna use it to address some things inside of you.

Adam Weber — I was forced to address some things inside of me. Everything from being a people pleaser, wearing people out, not caring for my team. I really didn’t have an option.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — I mean, it was just so…

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — It was there. I mean, there there were Sundays before certain staff left that I’d be on stage with with an individual, and I mean he ah they hated me. Ah you could feel it in the air. I mean, I can remember Sundays that I literally didn’t want to go to church because of how scared I was. Not like for fear of my life, but like just like the awkwardness. So I was forced to deal with it. And I because I couldn’t make everyone happy for the first time in my life And so, I I stood my my wife and my best non-family member, best friend, his name’s Tyler Goff. He’s a realtor. I would talk to my wife and Tyler every day and ask them if I if I could quit my job, probably for six to eight months. Can I quit my job? And they would basic both say, nope. Nope. But we, you know, Tyler, every single time he answered the phone.

Adam Weber — So it was just processing that pain, first off and all the hurt. And early on, it was everybody’s fault.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — You know, it’s like, it’s everybody else. It’s everybody else. It’s everybody else. That’s I wouldn’t say that publicly. I said it internally. The only thing that I really did did well during this time is I did, I really felt like I was not supposed to talk to anybody outside my little tiny circle. And I didn’t feel like I was supposed to to defend myself. So I really just felt like, nope, there was, you know, the Lord will be your defender. I don’t know what it was.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — I just felt that internally. So I just, I didn’t talk. I didn’t eEven what I’ve said, I’ve been trying to be really, really intentional. I just have not bad-mouthed anybody…

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — …at all. And that’s God’s protection because I wanted to. But so I just, but anybody who reached out to me, I would meet with them. And cause you know, there was all these questions and I would say, there’s no question that’s off limits. You can ask me anything. And if I bad mouth anybody, even for a second, that’s unacceptable. So please cut me off if I start speaking. So I just. I did a lot of that, but as far as how to how do I start addressing it? Talking to that close inner circle. And just verbalizing my pain. My, just my, all the feelings.

Adam Weber — I can remember with Travis Walton one time I’m on the phone and I’m embarrassed to say this, but I probably made up swear words. It just came gushing out.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — And I got done with this emotional outlet over the phone to him and I said and now you probably hate me. And he said, no. I’ve actually been wondering when that was all going to come out.

Rich Birch — That’s cool. It’s good to have friends like that.

Adam Weber — And I was I was like, you don’t hate me? And he’s like, no. You literally have not said a word to anybody or about anything. And I just this has to be killing you. And so I think that was huge.

Adam Weber — Therapy was huge.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — I mean, just going therapy. Also, just like really with Travis Walton or others like help me understand because I’m not angry. I’m not like an angry person.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — I’m not a yeller boss. Like I’m not a dictator, like you would think like ah that, like someone going through this. I don’t understand why. Like, I’m quick to say thank you. And they’re like, Adam, I know. But like you just don’t have an off switch.

Adam Weber — And so as actually a business leader, he’s he’s still one of my dearest friends, a very just awesome business leader in Sioux Falls. He’s the one who gave me the terminology. Adam, you and I, we don’t yell at people. We don’t, you know, throw stuff. We just wear people out.

Adam Weber — I was like, Oh, man.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — And because so that did because I couldn’t see that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — And s I was like, you know, I’m saying thank you. I’m not angry. I don’t understand why this is a big deal that I wear people out.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — Well, because they have lives.

Rich Birch — Right, yes.

Adam Weber — And because they they feel like you’re you’re just using them. And that you don’t actually care for them. Because all you care about is the next hill that you want to climb.

Adam Weber — Even if you got the best intents of teach, like my drive in life is telling people about Jesus. because i I know what it’s like to be lost. And I can’t imagine being wired like me and not know the hope, joy, peace. Every, life found in Christ.

Adam Weber — I’d never heard the gospel until I was a sophomore in high school and I never missed church my entire life. And so I was just like, when I heard about Jesus, it was the greatest news I had ever heard. And so I wanted to spend the rest, I hope I’m the guy in the wheelchair at the nursing home going from one room to the next talking people’s ears off and trying to share about Jesus. And so.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool

Adam Weber — It was just a lot of like self-awareness.

Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah, that’s great.

Adam Weber — And just really pushing in. And then I got to mention Brad Lomenick too. Being around Brad Lomenick. His gatherings are like non-negotiables for me.

Rich Birch — Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah.

Adam Weber — And just to hear other pastors going through it, and to see them and hear them. So that was, all that. I’m talking too much again.

Rich Birch — No, you’re not talking too much. That’s great. Yeah. And yeah, you know, a good friend of mine says, you know we all need people in our lives, who love us, but aren’t impressed by us. Right. It’s that, you know, which is true, right?

Adam Weber — So true.

Rich Birch —It’s that like, like that friend of yours who was, who said like, Hey, I’m, I was waiting for that to come out. That’s, that’s a gift. What a gift to be that kind of person and to have those kinds of people in our lives for sure.

Rich Birch — So what would you say—and then we’ll, we will get back to Traction—but what would you say, Adam, today, what your leadership, how is it different? Are there different rhythms, different patterns? Did you, are there some kind of a couple behaviors that you look to like, oh, this is new, kind of new Adam rather than where we were you know 15 years ago or 10 years ago

Adam Weber — I would say so a couple of things that have been told to me first.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Weber — You you pause. You’re you pause more, like in a meeting. You pause more.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Adam Weber — You also, like I’ve always had a deep respect for, for if we don’t have the money for something, I’m not going to be the person let’s green light it. And just trust God. I want to take faith steps, but I’m not I’ve always had that healthy fear of like, I don’t want to put the church in a bad place. And people around me would say, you now have the same fear, in a good way, of not burning your team out.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Weber — So when you see that in the past, I would have been like, but is there in any way we could possibly do it still? Like I got told even no about something today, like just a small thing I wanted it to do. And Emily really, she, she, my assistant, she pursued it. And she was the one and she’s like, I just don’t think we should do this. In the past in the past, I would have been like, well, is there any way that we could do this still?

Adam Weber — You know, like again, not a yeller. I wouldn’t have been like, Emily, you should do this, blah, blah, blah. I would have probably used like, hey, there’s not a way that we can? So I think it’s just a healthy like pause.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Adam Weber — And then, but but then like the practical things, well, it’s even going to the the the cabin after this. I would have seen no need for it. Um…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Adam Weber — …you know like I would have been like, I don’t understand why I’m doing this. I kind of just I could probably work though. So like, so it’s…

Rich Birch — Right. I could send some more emails and give some people some more feedback on things, just to be helpful.

Adam Weber — Yeah. Emily’s smiling just as you just said that. She’s like, oh, sweet baby Jesus. So I think it’s pausing. I’ve always spent time with Jesus, always.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — I mean, my I’m just so hungry for God. But now it’s like it is like yeah untouchable. Like I get up and I’m at the coffee shop by 7 a.m. And I’m just sitting with the Lord. And like this morning, I didn’t bring my computer out with me to the coffee shop. I just sat and I got scripture open. I got my journal and I’m reading.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Weber — And man, the busier my day gets, oh the more time I’m spending with Jesus.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Weber — In the past, I would have squeezed out that time of Jesus because I got to go.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — And now it’s like, no, no, no, I’m so busy that I need to spend even more time with him.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Adam Weber — And, um and then instead of like shoving one more, I’m still working on this, but in the past it was like, okay, let’s do this interview. And then, you know as I’m whatever, let’s have the next thing right up next to it, and then the next thing. And I would start, I’ve always verbalized it to my myself and my wife. I feel like a robot without a soul.

Rich Birch — Oh wow.

Adam Weber — I would treat myself like that. And now I don’t want to treat myself like a robot without a soul.

Adam Weber — So now what I’ll do, like me going to Hy-Vee, the grocery store, and getting a randomly getting a steak for lunch would have never happened.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — A, I literally wouldn’t have ate lunch. I would say up until three years ago, I literally didn’t eat lunch.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — And now I like I mean it’s stuff like that…

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good.

Adam Weber — …that is seems really small, but it’s huge to me.

Rich Birch — No, that’s good. I love that. That’s super helpful. Thanks for letting me go down that road with you.

Rich Birch — Let’s take a step back and and talk about Traction. So the 10 year, the 90 day, the what do I do on Tuesday afternoon? I’d love to kind of talk through all of that. So so you define the 10 year goal. How did you get clarity around that? What what does that actually look like? How are you making steps towards that? Talk us through that.

Adam Weber — So good. I so I can’t tell enough pastors about this. So I didn’t read the book and I’ve been told the book is kind of confusing. If you can find someone in your community, specifically if you’ve got ah a business leader in your church that’s willing to donate his time or her she’s willing to donate her time, try to get, if there’s there’s usually in community, there’s there’s people who lead you through this process.

Adam Weber — So we had a guy named Mike Ritter. I got to shout out Mike. He doesn’t attend our church. He donated his time for us to go through it because he’s a faith man.

Rich Birch — That’s amazing.

Adam Weber — So we had our lead team, and which is the group that I report to along with the strategy team, the group that reports to me. We just brought them all together. And we wrestled with our vision, you know, kind of key things that set us apart. Who is our target audience? And then we really began to pray through what is our 10-year goal?

Adam Weber — So our 10-year goal that we set back in ’21—I know these numbers just because I’ve been sharing them with the church the last few nights—in August of ’21, we were right around 1,900 people in worship when we set the goal. So we wanted to reach 5% of Sioux Falls, which at the time was 12,500 people.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — Again. 1,900 people, 12,500 people are this, again, I’m going to share this just because it’s pastors and I want it to be helpful. I usually don’t share this elsewhere.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Weber — But you know away from non, we had We broke 5,000 in worship this last spring. One non-holiday Sunday, we were up over 5,600 people.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — So we set that. That, that 12-year goal. It’s just so fun to see it happening.

Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Yeah, you’re totally on track to that.

Adam Weber — And then… We really are. And ah with this new campus we’re pursuing, this new broadcast, I mean, it it will catapult us towards our goal, which is just awesome.

Adam Weber — So then what we do is, you know, we have a three-year goal, a one-year goal, and then these 90-day rocks. And we just, what’s it’s so good for someone like me. I get I’m the next fun, shiny thing I want to go do.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — What Traction does is it helps me stay focused.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — Adam, you’re number one thing you want to tell people about Jesus. This is why this church exists. 100%. So those side things are fun, but we’re not going to do them because we are focused.

Adam Weber — And then what’s also nice is, you know you know, as a lead pastor, it’s often easy to get in martyr syndrome. I’m working harder than everybody else.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — No one else cares about Jesus as much as I care about them. I, you know, you’re tempted to micromanage. Well, the Traction has accountability built in the guts of what it is.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — So what we do is we set in every 90 days, we have an offsite meeting for a half day where we, we lay out our current rocks that we’re just finishing and we grade them. A green, or a red. Was that successful or not? So there’s that built-in accountability. And then we say, okay, for this next 90 days, that starts in two weeks, what what do we want our rocks to be?

Adam Weber — So we lay them all out and then we pick them. So what are the top five or six things that we’re going to focus on? Yeah. Again, for me, I got all these shiny things.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — But Adam, are they more important than those things? No. No, they’re not. And then so you pick your five or six rocks and then everybody except me gets to be the owner of a rock. And they, then you, so out of that meeting, you, Okay, here’s my goal for the next 90 days. And here are the benchmarks that I’m going to hit to reach that goal, that rock.

Adam Weber — And then every week there’s a weekly meeting. And at the start of the meeting, you go through each rock every Monday – on track or off track.

Rich Birch — Good.

Adam Weber — And if it’s on track, good to go. You don’t talk about the rock at all. And if it’s ah off track, according to the milestones that you set, you say, what do we need to do to get back on track then? Because we’ve said that that’s one of the top five things. And that is the process.

Adam Weber —And now as of this January, I’m not even in the weekly meeting anymore.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Adam Weber — So if it’s lead, you’re supposed to have that meeting lead by someone other than the visionary. They call it the integrator.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Weber — And so I never led the meeting when I was in it. And now I’m not even in it anymore. And so that process has refined us and dialed us in. And here’s what’s been so fun to see at work, first off. And then the ownership. It’s just skyrocketed.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Adam Weber — You know my team is more, they’re more boots on the ground than I am. And ah so it’s just been so exciting. It’s all about instead of, it’s all about focus. You know, water can’t really do much unfocused. But man, you if you get it in a pressure washer. Man, that thing can, it can cut stone…

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Adam Weber — …if you focus it enough. And that is the power of Traction.

Adam Weber — I feel like so many churches and leaders, just like me, have no focus. And so they’re doing a trillion things not very well instead of getting really, really dialed in. Well I just have to say one thing. What we did in the very first rocks is we said, should we stay multi-site? And I I was like we’re gonna take 90 days to decide that? Like can we just decide that in a meeting?

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — Like why, why? And again, at first it felt horrible to a go-getter like me.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — I’m like, we’re going to spend 90 days. And so one of the rocks was we’re going to interview 14 churches from across the country, similar to us in similar communities, just bigger and ask them about the strategy and whatever else.

Adam Weber — And that homework told us, do not go away from multi-site. What they said is multi-site works. Crappy multi-site doesn’t work though. And that’s what most churches do is crappy multi-site.

Adam Weber — And so they’re like, if you do good multi-site where every service is amazing regardless of what location. So it’s not just the broadcast that’s awesome. And then these other sites are what are terrible. And then you’re saying it doesn’t work. It’s like, well, it doesn’t work because it’s terrible. That was one of the initial things. And it it really taught me to like, if you go slower, you’ll actually go further.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — And that was the type of things that I needed to learn.

Rich Birch — Yeah that’s great. I know our friend Warren Bird’s coming out with there with a new study this fall on multisite. And I literally we were just talking about yesterday that one of the and I’m not preempting any of his numbers. But one of the the big findings is exactly that that there’s numbers backing up what you’re saying there.

Rich Birch — That it you know there’s this popular notion that like oh multi-state’s gone away. And the way he said it was, no, really what it is is it’s gone vertical. When you see what’s happening is there are churches like yours that are driving much deeper into multi-site and, you know, launching more campuses, getting better at it, going, you know, spending a lot more time on alignment and you know that sort of thing.

Adam Weber — Yes.

Rich Birch — And it’s and it’s having huge impact the impact. And I have seen some of the numbers, it’s just insane to see. So that’s interesting

Adam Weber — Oh, it’s well it’s it’s it’s scalable.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Adam Weber — What I what I love is that our campuses, people know who their pastor is.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — And and they’re not me.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — You know, like it’s it’s the campus pastor.

Rich Birch — Well, and you can’t you can’t have a vision like 5,000, you can’t have a 5 % vision. with a single location.

Adam Weber — No!

Rich Birch — There isn’t a building big enough in you know in town to do that. You have to come up with some sort of multi-site thing that that does does that. So.

Adam Weber — It’s really it’s really it’s really incredible. So that’s great.

Rich Birch — Yeah that’s cool. Back to the 90 days so because I because I where I think some of this stuff falls down with churches is, yeah, we’re good at the like, we’re going to change the world. And we might even be okay at like this year, we’re going to focus on these three things. But then I like to call it the youth pastor on Tuesday problem. The like Tuesday afternoon, it’s like one o ‘clock in the afternoon, the youth pastor staring at the wall. And they’re like, I don’t know what I’m supposed to be working on right now. Like I, you know, I just don’t know. That’s where it starts to fall apart.

Rich Birch — So every 90 days, do you, I get that, like the team that works directly for you, they’re going to own those pieces. And then, but is there like a cascading that comes down, a communication that goes down? What does that look like?

Adam Weber — So cascading for sure. I mean, again, that’s something we weren’t good at. We would make decisions and then not tell anybody. So, so I mean, it’s just like, well, that’s unhelpful.

Rich Birch — And then be mad when they didn’t do it.

Adam Weber — Oh, a hundred percent.

Adam Weber — And so now what’s cool is our directors also have their own meeting. We call that the S10. And so they now have their own rocks. And sometimes they’re built off of past rocks from the their strategy team, but a lot of times they’re not.

Adam Weber — And so they’re they’re setting their own goals. And in a lot of it, it’s so it’s so it’s not some of it is so simple. What is our follow-up for first impressions? Like like what like when someone comes, what is our follow-up when someone wants to say they want to volunteer? I mean, it’s something it’s a lot of it is just systems.

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Weber — And so for these 90 days, we’re going to work on this system. Again for Enneagram three. That sounds like horrible. A system? Why do why do we need a system?

Rich Birch — Why are we doing that?

Adam Weber — And so, ah so, so that the S10 group, but a lot of directors is due on their own rocks, which is which is critical. But that so that cascading is huge. And then here’s what’s so cool. We just had it this last week, ah the L10, so the strategy team presented their rocks. And said, hey, guys, you’ve maybe noticed over the last couple of weeks, we’ve been focusing on this and this. Here’s the full rock. And do you guys have any questions about it?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Weber — Yeah. Why why why do we have this rock?

Adam Weber — I mean, literally and anybody can ask and they do. And so like any questions on this rock. And and and so, so them even like, oh, it just brings so much clarity. Oh.

Adam Weber — That’s why we’re that’s why we’re doing this. That’s huge. And then one other thing I would say that’s been just gold and where I can’t wait to get the results from it. As a part of Traction, you do a yearly survey. So you do a survey and it’s very open-ended questions. You know what are two or three things that you love about Embrace? What are two or three things that you wish Embrace would address?

Adam Weber — I mean it’s very, and we encourage, if you’ve even thought about attending Embrace, it’s not like our our inner like people who love Embrace.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — It’s everybody.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Adam Weber — And they give very unfiltered anonymous feedback. And it’s and sometimes it’s brutal. What’s so cool is they just there’s such there’s trends that you can get. And it’s gold. If you want to continue loving people, serving people, caring for people.

Rich Birch — That’s good

Adam Weber — Something in for years that we undervalued at Embrace—we just never thought about it—was parking. And so it’s just like the the tighter the services, the more chaos, the better.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Adam Weber — Well, it’s like, ah then we hired a years ago, actually in 2018, we hired ah a guy from Eagle Brook in Minneapolis.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Weber — Eagle Brook has been a huge blessing to us.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s a great church.

Adam Weber — I’m a big time Bob Merritt fan, Jason Strand fan, if you haven’t interviewed them, man, just incredible. But we brought him on and he’s like you guys realize your parking lot experience is horrible here, right?

Adam Weber — And it’s like, no, I’ve never even been in the parking lot. What are you talking about?

Adam Weber — He’s like, you realize that like dozens of cars are leaving because the parking lot… I’m like, no, they’re not. Their probably just going around the block. He’s like no they are leaving your church.

Adam Weber — Well again we so we I got a sneak peek. I just jumped in the survey thing to see some. t’s almost all parking, parking, parking, parking, parking.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Adam Weber — And so again, we’re like, what do we need to do?

Rich Birch — Yeah, we gotta fix that.

Adam Weber — So we’re looking at bringing in just a shuttle system for volunteers, like for staff and volunteers.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Adam Weber — Let’s park way way away, so it’s just been huge.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Love it. Well, that’s been good. That’s a great kind of under the hood look at Traction. If you were talking to a church leader who was interested in like, hmm, we need to maybe take a little step closer, take take a next step in this, what would you suggest kind of a first couple steps would be for them to try to begin to build a system like this?

Adam Weber — I would say is go to your lead team first, or your board.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Weber — Do we know anybody who implements Traction?

Adam Weber — Like, do we know anybody? And if they don’t, post it on your Facebook, Hey, this is really random. I’m wondering if there’s anybody in Sioux Falls, South Dakota who is an integrator? Like what would help like implement Traction.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Adam Weber — I would just love to take them out for coffee.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good

Adam Weber — That would be my initial thing.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Weber — And just just begin to see if you can find. Because here’s what’s so cool. That person, similar to Mike Ritter, again, Mike doesn’t even attend my church. Mike just, like, he heard about what Embrace was, what God was doing through Embrace, and he’s like, man, I would I just want to be a part of it.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — And so what he did, he brought two of our lead team, he allowed, like they were in the room And then he kind of equipped them. And now those two guys lead the 90 day meetings for us.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Adam Weber — And so and I feel like all three of them would say.

Adam Weber — It has made us feel like we’re so connected to the church and it’s given us so much purpose and whatever else. So you might just have a a business leader who is an implementer for Traction that has never served at your church. That’s like, Oh my gosh, I would love to help the church that way.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to be a part of that. Yeah, that’s so good. Great stuff. Well, this has been a great, great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on today.

Adam Weber — Oh.

Rich Birch — Adam, this has been fantastic any final words as we wrap up today’s episode?

Adam Weber — A couple of things. I just want to just give a shout out again to you. One of my, one of my favorite things was, uh, I can’t remember what it was about. Carey posted something. And then the next day you posted something that totally disagreed with Carey. Ha ha!

Rich Birch — Yes.

Adam Weber — I told Carey this too. I’m like, I just thought, you know, Carey is such a leading voice and you are as well, Rich.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Weber — And ah so I just, I just really got to honor you. And I love. As as pastors, we’re so spoiled by the both of you. And I thought it was so cool knowing that the both of you honor each other, and yet you disagreed. I was like, this is my favorite thing ever. I read both of those blog posts…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Adam Weber — like 10, 15 times. So I just need to say thank you. The second thing I would say is I would just say to anybody in ministry, whether you’re full-time or you’re a business leader, in like just thanks for serving. And um if you need if you find yourself at a place of rock bottom, our God specializes in bringing dead things back to life.

Rich Birch — So good.

Adam Weber — And that’s not just something that you and I can preach on a Sunday morning. It’s something that God can do in our lives as well.

Rich Birch — So true.

Adam Weber — Sometimes we get to be on the receiving end of that. So he can do that in our own personal lives if we’ve had a moral failure even, or whatever it looks like, but he can also do that in our church.

Adam Weber — And so you might say like, gosh, my my ministry is dead. Or my church just feels dead or whatever. That’s God’s specialty.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Adam Weber — And so I would just encourage you just to keep going. Deal with the things inside of you that need to be dealt with as well, For the sake of your own soul. for the sake of your your spouse, your kids, for the sake of your ministry. Do the do the hard work because it’s worth it.

Rich Birch — That’s so good

Adam Weber — It’s a, I always say self-awareness feels like your worst enemy, but it’s actually your best friend. And so pursue it, pursue it, pursue it.

Rich Birch — That’s a great place to end. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?

Adam Weber — Yeah, probably the best place is either adamweber.com or Instagram @adamaweber. And then the church is iamembrace.com. We’re probably most active on Instagram, our website as well. Yeah. Man, that would be it.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much for being here today. I appreciate that.

Adam Weber — Yes, thank you.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Vick Green, CEO of Replicate Ministries and co-author of Movement Ready Church. Replicate helps churches across denominations and sizes strengthen their disciple-making culture, clarify their vision, and mobilize people to make disciples where they live, work, and play.

Is your church busy but unsure whether people are actually being transformed? Do you have a clear pathway for discipleship but struggle to see multiplication happen outside your programs? Tune in as Vick challenges several common assumptions about disciple-making and offers practical ways to measure transformation, mobilize people, and create a culture where ministry extends beyond the walls of the church.

Learn more about Vick Green and Replicate by visiting replicate.org. You can also explore the book Movement Ready Church and additional free resources at movementreadychurch.com.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint

As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.

TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow.

TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week.

If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo.

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. Super excited for you today because you’re going to get front seat with a leader who interacts with literally hundreds, maybe thousands of churches across the country every single year. And we’re going to take advantage of the fact that we got an expert on the line today and try to peel back and help you in an area in your church, which I think will help accelerate your mission as we round out here in 2026 and look into 2027.

Rich Birch — Excited to have Vick Green with us. He is the CEO of Replicate Ministry, where he leads a team of coaches and consultants who work with churches every year all across the country in their particular, their disciple-making vision and strategy.

Rich Birch — Before Replicate, he served on staff at a fantastic church, Long Hollow Church in Hendersonville and The Chapel in Baton Rouge. He holds, if I’ve got all the numbers and letters correct, an MDiv from New Orleans Baptist and lives in the Nashville area with his wife, Sophie, and their three kids.

Rich Birch — He’s the co-author of a great new book that I want to expose you to with Robby, who’s been on the podcast before called Movement Ready Church. Welcome to the podcast, Vick. Glad you’re here.

Vick Green — Dude, thanks so much for having me. And what an intro, man. Down to my seminary degree. Wow. Like, that’s impressive. And.

Rich Birch — People like that, you know, people like those things. So you’re an expert.

Vick Green — There you go.

Rich Birch — I just play one on the internet, but you’re like an actual expert.

Vick Green — Hey, I appreciate it, Richie. I’ve been following the unSeminary Podcast since those Chapel days, like early on, trying to figure things out. And your podcasts, your books have been a gift. So fun to be on this side of the conversation with you.

Rich Birch — I’m honored that that you would do this and really looking forward to expose what you do at Replicate and particularly this book and the kind of the work around that to folks. But why don’t you tell us about Replicate. For folks that are unaware, kind of talk to us about the kinds of churches that you’re interacting with week in, week out.

Vick Green — Yeah, so Replicate was started in 2008 by Robby Gallaty. And so Replicate exists to help churches activate their unique disciple-making movement. And so since 2008, we’ve had a burden to see ministry get beyond the walls of the church, beyond the church’s programming. How do we see every person in our church to see themselves as a disciple-maker? And what does it look like to see ministry happening through our people as they make disciples? where they live, work, and play. And so that’s really been our passion since ’08. I joined in 2020. Replicate helped me down in Baton Rouge. I joined in 2020 and we get to work with churches across all denominations, all church sizes in helping them with their culture, vision, and strategy around disciple-making. I think to date, I think we’re over 4,000 now. I think actually closer to 4,500 churches that we’ve trained in that span.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Vick Green — And so, yeah, every year we’re getting to see around 700, 800 churches a year at this point that we get to work with and and help kind of further the mission of what they do. And so it’s a blast. I spend each week somewhere with a church. I’m heading to Chicago today and we’ll be somewhere next next week, but get to see a lot of different contexts and be with a lot of great leaders.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s really the heart of why I wanted to have you on, to take advantage of the fact that you interact with so many churches, and have a really unique vantage point seeing so many churches and um I’d love to try to draw out some of those learnings for our listeners that are pulling in today.

Rich Birch — When someone gives you a call for the first time, they pick up the phone, they say, okay, we got a problem and I need the folks at Replicate to help us. What do they say? Like, hey, here’s the thing that’s gone wrong. Here’s the thing, the pain that they feel. Help us understand that.

Vick Green — Yeah, often whenever churches are reaching out to us, they want help with disciple-making, they want help with multiplication. You know, we hear that in a lot of ways. And that multiplication takes a couple of different expressions. Sometimes it’s, man, we need better discipleship. Sometimes it’s we need more leadership development, our leadership pipeline. Sometimes it we need ministry outside the walls of the church happening. All of that is usually what is starting the conversation.

Vick Green — What is often holding them back, that problem is they don’t know how to help the light bulb go off for their people. There’s this disconnect. The staff wants their people to be to really embrace this disciple-making lifestyle, to be out in the community, doing ministry and sharing their faith and helping others, but they can’t quite figure out how to get it to their people.

Vick Green — And so there’s this gap that they consistently feel. And so typically we’re trying to figure out, okay, why are we not seeing that multiplication, that disciple-making culture? And then ah we’re identifying what is what are those things holding back the culture?

Vick Green — And so one of those two that just kind of typically always comes up, most of them most of our leaders, they have a vision for multiplication, but they don’t necessarily know how to measure it. They don’t know how to measure disciple-making or are we developing the right disciples? And then they don’t necessarily know how to get ministries and lead in a way that their people actually will start living it outside of the walls of the church.

Vick Green — And so those are two of the typical tensions that people are feeling. And what they’re looking for is that multiplication and mobilization.

Rich Birch — Well, when I hear you say, you know there’s this idea that like, hey, we we want the light bulb to go off in our people. We really want them to. Um, you know, want to engage in this, but we’re feeling a certain amount of frustration. To me, that feels like there’s an assumption or there’s some underlying assumptions that you must run across…

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …that you see inside of us as church leaders that that it’s kind of holding us back or holding back our leadership. What are some of those assumptions that you keep running across that are in our heads…

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …as church leaders that are holding our people back or potentially holding our churches back?

Vick Green — Yeah, we actually, we talk about it from the idea of myths. Do you remember the show Mythbusters growing up?

Rich Birch — Oh yeah. I love that show. That was fun.

Vick Green — Loved that show. We have so much fun on that. And so we will riff off that idea of Mythbusters. And one of the myths that we see the most in churches. This is the number one is something that we call the engagement myth.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Vick Green — And it’s the belief that activity equals transformation. It’s the belief that activity equals transformation. And so the reason that we really figured this out or we kind of stumbled across it, we jokingly say like, the we’ve paid the dumb tax for you. Like after doing this for 18 years and most of our coaches are pastors in the trenches right now. And so a lot of times what we’re working with through are stuff that we figured out the hard way.

Vick Green — And the way that we figured this out is we actually had a guy in our church—his name was Scotty. And Scotty is the most active person in our church. He was coming to worship service. He’s coming to small groups. he’s coming he’s volunteering on Sundays. He’s listened to every podcast of Robby’s. He is, I mean, he’s coming to the prayer gathering. That’s how you know he’s committed.

Vick Green — And so, all metrics that we’re measuring, he’s at the top. Like, if you want to put out our database, he he is number one, Scotty. But here’s the problem. When Scotty introduces himself, he introduces himself and he says, Hi, my name’s Scotty. And I’m an atheist.

Rich Birch — Interesting.

Vick Green — The number one most active person in our church is an atheist.

Rich Birch — Right.

Vick Green — And I think on one side, I love that he feels safe enough to explore his faith in our community is that is welcoming.

Rich Birch — Right.

Vick Green — That’s fantastic. And if that is our metric for maturity and an atheist is at the top, we have a problem.

Vick Green — And it exposed this gap for us that program activity is not the same as personal transformation.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Vick Green — And I think that right there is the number one…angst that I see leaders feel. Every leader, when I, as soon as I say, activity equals transformation, they say. Yes. But then when I asked them, okay, now tell me. What is the picture of a disciple that you’re developing? What’s that picture of transformation?

Vick Green — They can’t say it back.

Rich Birch — Right. We can’t articulate those two things.

Rich Birch — Well, and I’m having a hard time. Yeah. It’s like one of those, I had that same, exactly the same feeling inside of me when we started talking about that. I was like, yeah, that is true. But I’m like, okay, so if we aren’t measuring, because a part of what got my attention early is like, hey, we want to measure things. We want to have good metrics.

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And activity is very measurable. Someone either walked into the room or they didn’t, they joined the class or they didn’t.

Vick Green — That’s right.

Rich Birch — They registered and then so and then actually showed up. All of those things are the kinds of things that we can we can measure. But talk me through how do we how should we be thinking about this myth? How should we be thinking differently, if we really actually want to measure transformation or push towards transformation, really?

Vick Green — Yeah, and and the thing about it is activity and measuring that, it’s not bad. It’s just incomplete. it’s only telling you half the picture. And so to give you that idea here is like, Think about baseball for a second. If you play, what if you measured who won the game by who got the most hits?

Vick Green — Okay. There’s plenty of times where hits does lead to runs and there’s a correlation. But there’s also plenty of times where it doesn’t.

Rich Birch — Right.

Vick Green — And a team with the most hits loses the game. But here’s the bigger picture. How much does that change the game for those that are playing?

Vick Green — If hits is all you measure, a home run has no value. You would never run past first base. That right there is the impact that happens if all we measure is activity. And so it shapes how people interact with you. And because here’s the big idea is your people play where the scoreboard is the clearest.

Rich Birch — Yeah. True True.

Vick Green — And so if our scoreboard is all about activity at best, it’s an uninspiring invitation. I would say at worst, it promotes a work-based theology.

Rich Birch — Oh wow.

Vick Green — And I think that’s what’s at risk here.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Vick Green — And so ultimately, incomplete scoreboards create incomplete disciples.

Vick Green — And so we just have to look and say, okay, we let’s not stop measuring activity. Now, let’s but let’s also measure something else. Let’s make sure our transformation scoreboard is as clear as our activity scoreboard.

Rich Birch — Okay, that’s good. I like that. And I i think that’s vivid you know the the hits versus ah you know runs is a great example. Yeah, you know, and that I can see actually in our church world, how and there’s metrics I know that are incomplete, but you’re like, okay, but we use, it’s at least measurable. So we put it down on a piece of paper.

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — So what should we be measuring then? What should we be paying attention to to help us get a better handle on this.

Vick Green — Yeah, I’ll give you two metrics and we’ll tackle the first one and however much time we have for the second, we’ll tackle the second.

Vick Green — The first one that I would that you need to measure is what is your, we call it a dream disciple. And that’s more a term from us to the church. The church tweaks that and adjusts that into their language.

Vick Green — But tell me the picture of the disciples that you’re developing. And then how can we build our metrics of success off of those traits?

Vick Green — And so this looks different because ultimately we’re not looking for activity. We’re looking for life change here. And so… What we’ll do, I’ll give you I’ll give you a a story and and of somebody who created one and how they now use it.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Vick Green — And so we’re working with a friend of mine. You may know Chris Vaught. I don’t know if you know Chris Vaught.

Rich Birch — Oh yeah, yeah.

Vick Green — And so, yeah, he’s with Connection Point. And so they’re one of like and they’re an outreach church, had an unbelievable success… But whenever he called and reached out, he said, man, we’re growing super fast. But I don’t think we’re making disciples. And so we had to really go in there and say, man, what does that look like?

Vick Green — We developed with this team their dream disciple. And I love in it because again if if people are listening just in audio, you won’t see this, but you can easily imagine it. They call their disciple, they say that they have a mind of truth. They have a voice of hope, a heart of compassion, hands of service, and feet of purpose.

Rich Birch — I love it.

Vick Green — And so it’s like head, shoulders, knees, and toes right now. Like you know, and so you’re you’re doing it, you can’t help but but but do it.

Vick Green — But they got five roles that they want their people to live into. And then they built assessments and metrics and things around each of those roles. But then come back to the idea of how do we make the scoreboard clearer that, you know, they are sharing more about the roles of their disciple than their pathway. Because their pathway just says what you want someone to do. This tells you who you want them to become.

Rich Birch — Oh that’s good.

Vick Green — And that that piece there are so often, and here’s how you know you have this problem is a lot of times with pathway language, it’s all verbs. And you just tell me what you want me to do.

Rich Birch — Do this, do this, do this.

Vick Green — And… and exactly. And but your dream disciple is using nouns, adjectives, adverbs. It’s painting a picture of transformation.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Vick Green — And here’s the reminder that none of us need, but I’ll give it anyways, no one joins your church for a busier calendar.

Rich Birch — True.

Vick Green — Like nobody’s joining it to go to the net these four programs for the program’s sake. They’re joining it to become a better people.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Vick Green — And so what they did is they they got a picture of that for their people, but not just that, down to their kids’ ministry. That tactile thing, I mean, it is a dance that they do for all their kids. It was in VBS. The other piece, it’s a blessing that they pray over a kid during in child dedication, during a baby…

Rich Birch — Oh wow.

Vick Green — …and then equip parents to pray it over their kids every night.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Vick Green — Now think of that. compounding effect from zero years old, all the way to the oldest person in your congregation. You’ve given this vision and this language that is is directing people’s attention. And then they built in assessments to measure: How well are we becoming this type of person?

Rich Birch — I love that. And I think that’s such a key insight I think you just rolled out there that I want to double click and underline and highlight for folks that.

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Too many times, I think our pathways, our discipleship stuff is, or any really anything in our church, but we’re talking about discipleship specifically today, is us-centric rather than our people-centric. It’s all about, hey, will you jump through these hoops, which like you said earlier, is there’s a real danger there that it can be, could even be like a you didn’t say this, I said it, like an abusive kind of thing. Like, hey, you got to check this stuff off. It can lean to, yeah, in the wrong way, as opposed to, hey, how do we make this about you? Which I think that’s a key insight. You gave a good, vivid example there with Chris’s church.

Rich Birch — When a church works with you and helps narrow down, define—I love the crystallization of the movements, all of that—

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Where does this start showing up? Their dream disciple? What are some other areas that you start seeing? Or maybe you do you have some recommended like, hey, here are the ways to start talking about it because I’ll give you this this my my skepticism…

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …although I’m not really a skeptic person, is I wonder if this work is is like the we went away to the vision retreat, came up with a new vision, put it on the wall. How do we ensure it doesn’t become that, but it actually gets worked through our culture? What are some of the places that you see the dream disciple really showing up…

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …in interactions in the church?

Vick Green — Yeah, and I’ll connect too to that last piece that you just said as I share it. Like because I think that is huge, what you just mentioned, Rich, is that I think so often we don’t mean to. But we don’t realize that we communicate a message that says we want something from you. And so we share our mission statement. Here’s who we are. Then we share our pathway, which says, here’s how you get involved. So here’s who we are and do these four things to help us. And we miss the opportunity to say, hey, here’s what we want for you, not from you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Vick Green — When you step in and you’re a part of us, here is who how we’re going to help you be a better spouse, a better parent, better coworker. So much of this, what it does is it helps the church move from a vision that is from people to for people. And so with that in mind, what I’m always pushing our churches to is your pathway lives in your new membership class or in your Discover class. And so because at that point, they have decided, hey, I I want to i want to be a part of this. How? Your pathway tells them how.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Vick Green — Your dream discipleship is telling them why it matters. And so people don’t join your church for how, they join it for a why. So…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Vick Green — I’m encouraging them that dream disciple, like, I don’t I’m not worried about the lead pastor communicating their pathway. Like I’m worried about, tell me why your pathway matters, tells me who you want your people to become.

Vick Green — And so where that where that shows up is you will see it visibly shown in places. You’re going to, like, I would rather that in your bumper reels in the beginning. I’d rather that in on the walls. I would rather that in your resourcing to it.

Vick Green — And then beyond that, just talking about some fun ways where you actually like move this beyond just cute language, you know, like, I mean, the language is great, but if it just lives on the walls, then like. I mean no one no one is is wanting something that just makes the walls add more language. We want something that’s actually shaping our culture.

Vick Green — So another great example of how I’ve seen this done is my friends at New Beginnings do it really well. And they’ll go and they’ll preach this sermon series. And then they will ask at the end of it, they’ll say, hey, which of these roles are you doing best in, which do you need to most grow in?

Vick Green — Just, hey, real quick, give us 60 seconds. What do you need to grow in in the days ahead?

Vick Green — But here’s what they do with it. Now they have thousands of people telling them, here’s where I’m at. Here’s where I need to grow. First off, that data alone, how much that shapes their sermon series. They’re resourcing because now they’re seeing our people are doing well at this role that deals with reading their Bible, but they’re doing really poor at sharing their faith.

Vick Green — Okay, we need to we need to lean into this role in how we preach. But here’s the other thing that they do. They put in personalized drip campaigns based off your responses.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s great.

Vick Green — So if you look, again, just using a Connection Point, let’s say they say A Voice of Hope is their lowest. Okay, that’s that’s their evangelism idea. So now they’re going to follow up with emails of like, hey, here’s a couple of books we really like. Hey, we have a new class that we start in two weeks around evangelism. You said you wanted to grow in this. We would love to help.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Vick Green — That language is so targeted, but it also, I want something for you, not, hey, I want you to sign up for one of our classes. And so that’s some of the practical ways that people take this and actually get it moving.

Rich Birch — That’s good. I love that as so I’m a full-time coach now. And one of the things that’s been a little bit shocker, I probably shouldn’t because I’ve been in ministry a long time, is how much people are not willing to change and to and and unless they clearly see the why, and unless they’re ready for it, like unless they come to the place of saying, hey ah this is an area I want to grow in.

Rich Birch — And so even I love that of like, hey what if you’ve got five different areas in this, which of these five do you want to grow in? Rather than saying, hey here’s you should grow one of these.

Vick Green — That’s right.

Rich Birch — I think we’ll set people up in a way better spot to then be open to conversation around that area rather than us being prescriptive. That’s so good.

Vick Green — And I would I would add too to that idea of of how to get people to change, like in that paradigm piece to it is every, ever you know, you and I have been to many of these conferences. The idea of define your disciple, get a disciple definition is like all over the place.

Rich Birch — Right.

Vick Green — I think that’s a good starting line. I just think it’s a poor finish line. Because the definition aims at the head. I think your dream is how it needs to aim at the heart.

Rich Birch — Oh that’s good.

Vick Green — It needs to paint a picture for people. And so like a great example, you can feel the difference in this statement. Like I was working with Harvest Bible in Chicago and they were and we were looking at their roles and they picked up on this agrarian Psalms 1 imagery. But what they said, we want our disciples to be uniquely planted, deeply rooted, carefully pruned, and persistently fruitful.

Rich Birch — Oh that’s good.

Vick Green — That’s right. Everybody does, but you can feel when it hits at the heart level.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Vick Green — And I think at the end of the day, that is ultimately where so much of the change is needed for our people. And you know Jesus didn’t just give us a different way. He showed us how that different way was a better way.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Vick Green — And you need to paint that picture that people look and say, I need that in my life. And so I think you’re, don’t stop at the definition level. Paint the picture that your people look and say, I want that in my life.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love it. So you had mentioned there is a second area. We could cover that even just quickly…

Vick Green — Sure.

Rich Birch — …just to kind of give it ah some context. What was the second area that you think we should be thinking about?

Vick Green — So if that’s the other metric, if dream disciple is one of those, the second is—and this is, again, kind of our term, but it’s it’s easy to connect on—is this idea of every person needs to be able to name and reach their kingdom circle.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Vick Green — And here’s the idea is that every person in your church has a circle of influence that they’re called to bring the kingdom of God into. And you can call that whatever you want and and find what fits your culture. I’ve named it several different things at this point. But it’s just this idea that often, you know, before before covid—we’ll just kind of use covid it that was such a defining mark—before covid, whenever churches were working on strategy, though they wouldn’t say it, their end goal was often to just get deeper program engagement. And so, okay, let’s get them further engaged in what we’re doing and giving us more hours of their time.

Vick Green — But here’s the problem is like program engagement is is really important. But it’s a byproduct, not the purpose. That’s again, that engagement myth slipping in there. It’s like, it’s good. It’s important. Let’s measure it. But what we realized is that covid was a nationwide disciple-making test. And by and large, the local church failed.

Vick Green — And and and we were part of that where we looked in the people who were in our church who were always in who were in the church building every time we opened it. The moment they couldn’t get to the church building. They didn’t know what to do with their faith. Their faith crumbled in it. And and and and what it began to show us, it asked one big question: if we took away the church’s programming, would the people own the mission?

Vick Green — And our people had yet to get to a place where they had owned what it meant for their faith and to be a disciple-maker. And we see it still. Like, I can’t tell you how many times I start working with churches and we start them through a through one of our discipleship group ministries. And people come back and they say, our our deacons, our elders, our key leaders. I can’t believe how few of them had a consistent time in the word.

Vick Green — And so all I say all that to say this is we’ve we’ve changed now post COVID to say, hey, program engagement is a byproduct, but the end goal? It has to be, are they are they a disciple-maker? Are they investing in others now? And so that’s that idea of, in your life, in your circle of influence, whether that’s in the church. But maybe it’s in your workplace. Maybe it’s in your neighborhood. Who are you bringing the kingdom of God to? And that may be more evangelistic, may be more discipleship focused. But that right there is that second metric. I want to know how many disciple-makers are actively investing in others in your church.

Vick Green — And if we can’t get really clear on how we measure that, we need to recalibrate. And it’s ultimately that right there is filling out that scoreboard. We’re still measuring activity, but now we know are they living this lifestyle and where are they actively investing in someone right now

Rich Birch — Yeah. How so I think that’s like that’s a super noble idea. I love it.

Vick Green — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I understand what you’re talking about, I think, if if I’m grasping it correctly.

Vick Green — Yeah. Sure.

Rich Birch — But a part of what you’re trying to do there is measure, by definition, things that are outside of the building or outside of the program that you’re you’re doing, I feel like we have a hard time understanding what’s happening even inside our buildings or inside our programs. So how do you help a church? How did how do we get our handle on ow many of these sidebar…I’ll give you an example.

Vick Green — Sure.

Rich Birch — I was talking to my brother-in-law—he attends our church—and he was talking to and a guy who also attends our church. And they had like a great engagement around prayer. Aand there was like this really cool outcome that had um you know that, but it really, none of this interaction had really anything to do with the church. It wasn’t in our in our programs. It all sidebar to what we’re doing.

Rich Birch — How do we try to get our handle on those these things that are outside of our buildings, outside of our programs to measure them to say, hey, this is is this actually having an impact or not?

Vick Green — Yeah, I think first off is what do we consider to be, in this instance, a kingdom circle? Or what do we consider to be a disciple-making leader?

Rich Birch — Good.

Vick Green — What we often find is that when we get to leadership, it’s usually fuzzy. Every ministry area has their own definition of it. We measure it differently. Okay, what if it’s outside of the walls versus inside? So first off, it’s just getting clear on what do we consider to be a leader?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Vick Green — Then, what is our plan to equip them? And then what is our plan to partner with them? So you got to have those three things. And what is the leader? How do we equip them? How do we partner? Most of the time, there’s not a unified approach in those three instances.

Vick Green — And so what we’re doing with churches is, hey, we have a kingdom circle training that they can they can use and they can go through that helps them create a personalized disciple-making plan. And it and it lets them say, based off of what I feel like God’s calling me to, the people in my life, here’s who I’m investing in. Here’s how I’m going to do it. And then those churches saying, great. Here are here are different resources that you can use to do that.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Vick Green — And here’s how we’re going to walk with you. And so just to give like a practical visualization of that. It was actually one of the guys that I had our discipleship group, which again, our Replicate has its model. It’s like a three to five, gender specific, you meet for a season and then you multiply out. I’m trying to like get Austin out of the out of the nest, if you want to think about it that way. It’s time for you to go invest in someone else.

Vick Green — Okay, here’s the thing that you need to know about Austin. I jokingly say this, but you didn’t know Fred Flintstone still exists? But like, it’s Austin. Like I came from Louisiana dude. I didn’t even know quarries were like still alive and well.

Rich Birch — A thing, yeah.

Vick Green — Yeah, like I was like, oh wow. This dude is a fourth generation quarry worker.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Vick Green — And we start working together and I’m like encouraging him on, hey, you need to step out and start a D group. And he he every time said, I don’t know, I don’t know. Finally, I just said, hey. Who in your life could you invest in? And we always do our D group around a fire pit. And so as we were around the fire pit, he goes, you know, I don’t have any of other believers in my life. But the people in my life that don’t know Jesus don’t have this. They don’t have a fire pit.

Vick Green — And so he then starts to identify people in the neighborhood, and men who don’t go to church that are in our neighborhood. And he just, he has them over and he’s he around the firepit. He said, guys, we’re going to gather here every Wednesday night talk to talk about, um he just said, we’re going to talk about life and dude stuff. Like, that was his pitch.

Rich Birch — I love it.

Vick Green — But they like loved it. You know, like, it yeah, it was just, it was, but all of us were like, yeah. I watched a man a man ah every Wednesday that did not know Jesus, that did not go to church, walk past my house to go to Austin’s.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Vick Green — And what he did to that, the church gave him, hey, here’s four or five really easy questions to help you figure out what that hour with those men are going to look like. And so he ran that based off the church. The church has encouraged him. Again, the church ah the the church, they don’t know the church yet. They eventually, these men all start coming to church with Austin. Their wives start coming.

Vick Green — And then eventually he looks and says, hey, Vick, I’m going to take that D group guide that our church gave us. He says, I’m going to start doing what you did with me with them. They’re all now coming to church and want to grow in their faith.

Vick Green — And so he took another resource of the church. Did it. And then eventually they multiplied out. And the story continues.

Vick Green — And so, but but there were a couple of resources the church gave. The church partnered in prayer and encouragement of him. And they helped him figure out what’s God doing in his circle of influence. And how do we help equip and empower Austin to be plan A for his circle of influence, not the church’s event or program.

Rich Birch — That’s good That’s great. Well, we we’ve got this. A resource I want to point people towards, it’s or you’ve got a resource that we want to point people towards, is the Ministry Myths download. We’ve been kind of talking about one part of it, the engagement myth. There’s you lift these five different, we don’t need to get into all of them, but talk to me about this resource. We’ll link to it in the show notes so people can, can pick it up and all that, but talk to me about this tool and how can it help and, and that sort of thing.

Vick Green — Yeah, so this is, administering myths is probably our most popular tool, and it’s the five most common myths that are stalling your disciple-making culture. So if you’re not seeing leadership development or mobilization or if you’re not seeing that, often it’s coming back to a myth.

Vick Green — And what’s fun, you know, we we just use it as a personal assessment here. but this The myths idea, what myths are they’re faulty beliefs that are driving your behavior, and you don’t even know it.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Vick Green — And it’s what severs good intentions from good impact. And so what happens in our church is there’s these myths that we’re just kind of running on autopilot. So you’ve already heard the engagement myth. There’s four other ones in there. But this is not only going to introduce you to the myths. It’ll give you an assessment and then help you begin to kind of see and name some of the tensions that you’ve been feeling.

Vick Green — And so that right there is one of our most popular resources that helps churches kind of get the conversation started on, hey, why aren’t we seeing disciples being made like we want to?

Rich Birch — Love it. I think this would be a great place for everybody that’s listening in as a starting point out of today’s podcast You know, you’ve listened in here, you’re half an hour in, and this could be a great next step for you is to click that link, take the assessment. It’ll give you some good practical next steps and stuff to think about. Wrestle through with your team. Good conversation started there.

Rich Birch — Also, talk to me about “Movement Ready Church”. This is a ah book that you and Robby have put together. Kind of give us an overview of it. How does it connect with what we’ve been talking about today?

Vick Green — Yeah, absolutely. So the “Movement Ready Church” is a book that Robby Gallaty and I released in March. And it is it is our toolkit kind of in a book, if you want to think about it that way. And so it is really, we started to ask after working with thousands of churches, what are the essential elements that must be true for a church to see a disciple-making movement?

Vick Green — And so it is going to show those and it’s going to really help you not just identify those myths, but then we bust each of those myths in the book.

Rich Birch — Okay, great.

Vick Green — And so it’s going to that book’s really going to be almost like the solution side of the ministry myth assessment. But then it also, we when we work with churches, step one is we work through what does it take to be ah or to do a movement ready, to create your movement ready plan. And so we’ll go in and work with teams, one days, or do digital cohorts all around that book. And it’s helping churches get all the things that we’ve been talking about. So everything we talked about in here is going to be that and much more in the book.

Rich Birch — That’s great. And you can pick that up at Amazon, I’m assuming, where finer books are sold. But anywhere else we want to send them to to grab copies of that?

Vick Green — Sure, anywhere where books are sold, but then also if you go to movementreadychurch.com, you’ll see it there as well as a ton of free resources. We love, like our goal is to be as practical as possible. And so you’ll see a lot of resources there that help you take these principles and start having conversations and start putting them into practice. So movementreadychurch.com.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I think that’d be a great place as well to check out and you know follow along with the story, the Replicate story. You guys are doing such great work and with so many churches. And you know I’m an honored that you guys would want to come on and talk about this stuff. So I really do think, friends, it’s a great starting point for you.

Rich Birch — Well, just as we wrap up today’s conversation, any kind of final thoughts for us as we’re wrapping up today’s discussion?

Vick Green — Yeah, thanks so much for having us. And my encouragement for it is that as you look towards, we talked about the getting your disciple-making culture. We talk about it as make Jesus’ final words your first work. And I think the opportunity and why I love what we do is that these principles are all just getting back. We call it ancient innovation. Like it sometimes feels like new insights and new ways of doing ministry. Like how you said about the kingdom circle. Let me wrap my mind around this. And so it feels new, but it’s just a return to something old.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Vick Green — It’s a return to what Jesus has called the church to do. And so just to encourage any leader, this is not just about getting better. And it is about getting back to the heart of what we’ve ah we’re called to do from the beginning and making disciples. And so my hope is that this is a resource that helps helps you not just be a better leader. But what I love is every time I’m with a team, somebody comes back and says, man, like I’m getting back to why I got into ministry in the first place. And so it’s our prayer that it would be that for you as well.

Rich Birch — Good stuff. Well, we’re cheering for you, Vick. Appreciate your work and how you help so many churches. If people want to track with you or with Replicate, where do we want to send them online?

Vick Green — Yeah, so you can follow me on social media. There’s not a lot of Vick Greens out there, so you’ll you’ll find me pretty quickly. And so vickgreen.com as well, or replicate.org is our our ministry and what we do. And so if there’s any way that Replicate, we can partner with you, we sure would love to meet you, connect, and see what ways we can serve your church.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, sir. Appreciate you being here today.

Vick Green — Thanks so much, Rich. It’s great to be with you. And thanks for all that you do with unSeminary Podcast. Longtime listener, still continue. So really grateful for you.

Rich Birch — Thank you.

 

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jon Thompson, senior pastor of Sanctus Church, a multisite church on the east side of Toronto. Jon has served at Sanctus for 25 years and has helped lead the church through seasons of growth, renewal, revival, and cultural change. In this conversation, he shares insights from his latest book, Presence: Resilient Witness in Times of Retreat and Revival, and explores how churches can faithfully witness in an increasingly post-Christian—and even re-paganized—culture.

To learn more about Jon Thompson and his books, including Convergence, Perseverance, Presence, and the upcoming re-release of Deliverance, visit jonthompsonresources.com or Amazon.com.

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, Rich from the unSeminary Podcast. Listen, you’re going to want to lean in today for this conversation because I think this kind what you’re going to get a sneak peek on is something that’s impacting churches all over the world that’s having, I think, an interesting kind of moment and is maybe points to a bit of where God is at work. And I think could for many churches that are listening in today, give them a sense of maybe some next steps, what the kind of evolution or the development of their church, what that could look like for the future.

Rich Birch — Plus, it’s one of those times where I get to talk with like a real live friend, somebody that I know from the real world, not just on the internet, which is so fun. Excited to have Jon Thompson with us. He is the senior pastor at Sanctus Church, a multi-site church in the east side of Toronto with four in-person locations plus church online. This church began in 1985 with just 40 people meeting and now averages over 2,600 weekend attendees with a plan to reach 3,600 by the end of the decade and open a sixth site in the T. Dot in Toronto in the six by 2030.

Rich Birch — Jon has served at Sanctus for 25 years, starting as a youth pastor before becoming the senior pastor. He holds both a masters from Tyndale and a doctorate from Fuller. He grew up in Ecuador from missionary parents, he and his wife, Joanna, who’s incredible, have three kids. His books include Convergence, Deliverance, and Perseverance. And the brand new one that I’m excited to have him talk about today, Presence: Resilient Witness in Times of Retreat and Revival. And it’s from our friends at Zondervan Reflective.

Rich Birch — Jon, welcome to the show. I am so glad that you’re here today. Welcome.

Jon Thompson — Yeah great to be here. Great to be back on the podcast. Hang out with a real friend, like you said, and hi to anyone listening anywhere around the world today.

Rich Birch — Yeah, this is good. I’m excited for this. For folks that haven’t maybe picked up a past episode, which you haven’t, you should go go back and find them. Jon’s been on a couple times, a few times. But give us kind of a picture of a normal Sunday at Sanctus. Who’s in the room? Give us a flavor for the church.

Jon Thompson —  Yeah, so our church is located, like you said, on the east side of Toronto. And some of your viewers will know this, but lots might might not. Toronto is the most multicultural city on earth, more than London, more than, well, LA, more than New York, more than Singapore, more than Hong Kong. And so there’s between 150 and 300 heart languages spoken every single day in our amazing city, by the way, you got to come to Toronto. The food culture is unbelievable…

Rich Birch — That’s true. That is true.

Jon Thompson — …and unparalleled because everyone’s here. So on a Sunday morning, depending on our locations, again, because we have rural sites, urban sites, and suburban sites, which makes life interesting to say the least, but we probably got 55 plus identified nationalities. We probably I think we’re on 13 on staff right now. And so everything from someone from Hong Kong to someone who’s moved here from Pakistan. We’ve got Congolese. We’ve got Irish. I mean just fill in the blank and you’re going to discover the amazing diversity of the human race on this side of heaven. And we you know we made a decision a long time ago that we were going to fight for Revelation 7 on this side of uh the moment.

Rich Birch — So good.

Jon Thompson — And it’s exciting, it’s hard, it’s difficult, and it’s um and it’s worth it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. You know, Canada is and I know we share this conviction. I know you’ve said it and I’ve said it on other podcasts when we’ve had Canadian friends on the podcast. But I think it’s really important, particularly, you know, 95 plus percent of the people listening are in the States. But I think it’s important just to to set the context. Because in a lot of ways, Canada is a few a few years ahead or behind, depending on what language you want to use, of our friends in the States. What do you mean by that? When you say that, what springs to mind?

Jon Thompson — Yeah, so this is a very interesting place, right? Because Canada moved from, ah you know, Christendom worldview, to a nominal Christian worldview, to a struggling Christian worldview, to a post-Christian worldview. And now I think we’ve moved to a new place, which is not post-Christian, but repaganized.

Jon Thompson — And so it’s a it’s a fascinating place. Because In our context, One moment, you’ll be talking to someone who still has Christian memory, who actually doesn’t love Jesus at all, but it’s a family thing. And it’s nominal Christianity.

Jon Thompson — The next moment, you’ll still run into a Mormon telling you you’re worshiping the right and wrong Jesus. The next moment, it’s a New Ager. The next moment, it’s ah a Muslim activist. The next moment, it’s a transgender activist. The next moment, it’s someone who has no clue at all on anything.

Jon Thompson — And so what’s fascinating about up here is you’ve got modern, postmodern. You’ve got conservative, you’ve got liberal. You’ve got the heart of the sexual revolution in the center center of our city. It’s one of the hubs of that globally. You’ve got every religion on earth. And you’ve got churches that are dying.

Jon Thompson — I think, I don’t know of the latest stats. I still think that they’re they’re estimating one third of churches will close in the next decade in Canada, like physical ah buildings will close. And while that’s happening. And all that’s happening. You’ve got still sort of Christianity memory in certain groups, and then there are churches that are exploding.

Jon Thompson — And so the the way I talk about we’re a little ahead is we are your future in some form. Because we’re facing down Jesus and how we deal with the gift of immigrants globally, but also the complication of that. We’re dealing with having to pivot the gospel to an a Muslim person, a Hindu person, a nominal Christian, and and a Mormon all in one conversation.

Jon Thompson — There are Bible belts left in Canada, very small ones. But like Abbotsford, for example.

Rich Birch — Little teeny tiny belts.

Jon Thompson —  But but there are those places.

Rich Birch — Sure. Yep.

Jon Thompson — At the same time there is the post-christian thing. And the reason why I think our American friends should pay more attention to us is not because we’re we’re having a third cousin issue up here and we’re jealous. It’s because actually we reflect where you’re going. Because there are going to be sections in the United States that probably will remain nominally Christian and culturally Christian for a very long time. You know, in certain parts of Houston, for example, or maybe in sections of Kentucky or Louisiana. But then you go to New York and LA or Seattle. And here’s the point. The church has to speak to both audiences at once, which feels in contradiction. But isn’t.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah and I’ve definitely seen that. I like the uh the re-paganizing language you know I’ve used the uh the pre-christian that we’ve it’s like we’ve gone kind of all the way through. And that that totally has been my experience serving here. You know I took a break. I was in the States for a number of years better part of a decade and then came back. And one of the things I’ve noticed has been this shift kind of under the current. We used to say we used to joke actually we ain’t your mama’s church. But like, you can’t make that joke anymore because like mom didn’t go to church. Grandma didn’t go to church. Like nobody in there, you know, we run into that all the time. Like that’s, you know, really common.

Jon Thompson — So like literally this week. This week, my daughter is doing swimming lessons. A woman comes up to us and says, hey, I hear you’re a pastor.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jon Thompson —  Really tragic thing. She says, my husband’s dying, 45 years old. And so my wife and I end up speaking to her, praying for her. And she’s like, I have never. So she’s 45 grown up Canada. She says, I’ve never owned a Bible. I’ve never read a Bible. Could I have a Bible?

Jon Thompson — Now, for you listening in the Bible Belt before you dismiss this conversation and say not our fight, I just…May I do something for a moment? That might not be true because you’re surrounded by 400 churches. But every time you go online, it is your reality. So what we experience physically in Canada you digitally experience every day. And you have to be as as adaptive thoughtful, winsome, orthodox on your digital thinking as you do your physical thinking. And again, I’ll say this a little strongly. I find a lot of you aren’t.

Rich Birch — Okay. We’re starting off spicy, which is great. Okay, so you’ve seen a lot of people. Part of what I love about Sanctus, friends like, I’m trying to, again, give some context. For folks that are listening in, Sanctus is known as a, you know this is a life-giving church. People, they come to Jesus here. This is the kind of place where people take steps towards faith in in Christ, which is amazing. You’ve seen a lot of that happen over the years at Sanctus—thousands of people. When you look back on some of the patterns in people’s lives, some of the, you know, the kind of themes that come back time and time again and how they arrived at that sort of decision. What are you noticing in people’s lives?

Jon Thompson —  Well, like I just said about the diversity of our place, the diversity of conversions come from those places. And so like on a Sunday morning, I mean, our baptisms aren’t more epic than yours or anyone else. I mean, praise the Lord. Right.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jon Thompson — We’ve got we’ve got 10 year olds confessing the faith of their parents. But it won’t be unusual for literally, I mean, this just happened. So we’ll have like two or three, not babies, but children who say, you know, I want to get baptized. And the next person’s like, I grew up an atheist. I’ve encountered the living God through Christ. The next person is I’m a former witch. And I just actually want to renounce Satan in the tank. And the next person’s like, I used to be a Muslim. And now I’ve actually found out that Jesus is Lord.

Jon Thompson —  So, so, that is not now an uncommon experience at any of our sites. And what is behind that is not only that the gospel is good for everyone—praise the Lord—but we worked really hard to make sure that all the doors are open evangelistically to all people. And that gets to our bias in spiritual gifts. But you know—and we’ve had this conversation many times, you and I, Rich—but there are three historic categories that Bobby Clinton invented years ago we’ve used where he divides all the gifts, love, word, and power.

Jon Thompson — So love gifts demonstrate the love of God in the room. Word gifts clarify who God is, who he’s not, what he likes, what he doesn’t. Power gifts evidence his presence in the room. That’s true of gifts, but to take a farther step out, those are three doors evangelistically.

Jon Thompson — And this is why this is so critical. Because we have to have all three of those doors—such as, hospitality, apologetic defense of the gospel, and miracles and deliverance—open all the time. Because these are the ways people have always come to faith in our movement for 2,000 years.

Jon Thompson — Now, all three doors have to lead to the true Christ because there are fake Jesuses. And there’s lots of heresy out there. And it has to be involved in repentance and belief and evidence by baptism. Amen. But I find most churches, theologically and experientially, are comfortable with one or maybe two of those things. And as I always lecture on this, like formally, if you sit on a three-legged stool and there are three legs…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jon Thompson — …and one leg is missing. You wobble on the best of days, but you usually fall down.

Rich Birch — Yeah. I’d love to kind of double click on love, word, and power, these three legs of the stool. And so familiar with, some people will be familiar with that framework for gifting like you talked about, and but kind of give us a little more, you gave you kind of a quick overview of each of them from an evangelistic point of view, but kind of give me some examples or what it might look like in a church that’s opening that that door evangelistically, you know, the love, word, and power door.

Jon Thompson — Yeah, and um I think we’re going to talk about this a little bit later. I mean there’s a lot behind these statements.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yes.

Jon Thompson —  Like almost 30 years of conversation.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jon Thompson — But like this is the best way I’ll say it. I’ve seen this in my life. I’ve seen this in my kids’ life. I’ve seen this across our church for two two plus decades, almost three now. Can I tell some stories that might help?

Rich Birch — Yeah of course. I love a good story.

Jon Thompson — Yeah, so… yeah so like here here’s a great example guy a young adult guy is in his basement.
And he’s smoking weed, high as a kite. Freaks freaks out. Okay, great.

Rich Birch — Shocker.

Jon Thompson — Shocker. But actually sees a demon and like panics. Calls someone at our church, a friend of his, and is like, I’m really scared. And she laughs. And she’s like, no problem. So her first thing is not. Oh you’re an idiot. Her first thing is not, oh, you’re inventing that. The first thing is not, well, of course you’re high, you’re seeing that. Her first reaction is, well, I’ve got an answer to that.

Jon Thompson — She’s like, yeah, his name is Jesus. By the way, if you say his name, watch the demon leave and then come talk to us. So the guy—total pagan—does it.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jon Thompson — The demon leaves. He shows up next Sunday. He’s radically converted. Didn’t used to be able to read, by the way, very well. Now reads at a PhD level and on a theology sort of thing, like radically converted. And his starting point was a power encounter.

Jon Thompson — Now the person next to it, next to him in a conversation is the one listening to John Lennox at Oxford on the the lack validity and the historicity of Jesus.

Jon Thompson — Or or you know, and we’re like, yeah, of course. And then the next person, we were just talking to this on staff. So one of our so SLT members (senior leadership team) was talking about his conversion story. And his conversion story is one of his relatives—I think it was his mom—was really sick in the hospital. Two nurses come in, and and are Christians, start praying over her, and basically start committing you know hospitality in the hospital, probably in a way they’re not supposed to. She’s radically saved, ends up leading her son to Christ, and the hus…

Jon Thompson — And and so so here’s all I’m trying to say. We have a gift bias that everyone should know their gifts and be using them not only internally in the church, but see how they work out evangelistically, but beyond the gift thing. This for us is normal. We talk about this in our sermons. We actually take the Bible literally in the sense of what we’ve defended is what we believe. I find a lot of conservative people defend the scriptures and don’t believe the thing they’re defending.

Jon Thompson — So for us, when I look at the book of Acts, I’m like, we will see people come to faith through healings and through deliverances and through visions and through dreams, as much as John Lennox or or our good new friend Wes Huff from Canada, who’s on every podcast showing up why the Bible is reliable, and also through that incredible, Hey. Can you just talk to me? I’m really sad.

Jon Thompson — And what I’m begging churches to do is this this matrix gives you the ability to pivot to multiple people, but you have to have a culture that believes this, defends it, defines it.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Jon Thompson — And makes the weird normal, as we’ve said for years.

Rich Birch — Yeah, okay. So you earlier you talked about how most churches are comfortable with one or maybe two, back to the three-legged stool.

Jon Thompson —  Yep.

Rich Birch — Unpack that a little bit. How have you seen that? Or maybe even more pointedly, how do you fight a get that against that in your own church? Because I you know I can see naturally we would all kind of lean in one way because of our giftings.

Rich Birch — you know As a leader, I always see I see the world through my lens. And so the stuff that’s important to me, if I was leading, we would be we’d love all that stuff, but we might not be into the other two. So help help me understand, what does that look like? How do you fight against that at Sanctus?

Jon Thompson — So I’ll step back and just say that you know this has been almost like a three-decade journey. For us, everything changed when we got serious about spiritual gifts, unpacking them and doing all of that. That’s a different podcast we’ve done. But what I will but what i will say is this… is that there are most conservative evangelical churches are word churches: Who God is, who he’s not, what he likes, what he doesn’t, the power of preaching. I’m all for it. I preach for a living. And by the way, for people who are starting to dismiss me, I’m reformed in my soteriology. And not only that, I’m an expository preacher. So you don’t get to throw me out the window too quick.

Jon Thompson — So, I mean, i’m’m I’m all I’m all for that. But that is not the answer. It’s part of the answer. And so what we continually have done is when we realize that love, word and power are things that are all needed at once, we made them equally important. In staffing, in our conversations. That’s one.

Jon Thompson — Two, you need to admit as a church where you’re comfortable and where you’re not. Because there’s a lot of churches, for example, that I always say it like this. You can have all the word people on earth in your church and know all truth, but you’re cold as anything and you’re not even sure if anyone’s been saved lately.

Jon Thompson — I’m in all sorts of other churches where it’s love, love, social justice, and hospitality. But I’m like, but are you believing heresy? Do you even have any compass?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jon Thompson — And then I’m in other environments where it’s, you know, glory clouds and all this amazing spiritual stuff. But I’m like, do you even know the source of this?

Jon Thompson — Where is this coming from?

Rich Birch — Yeah that’s good.

Jon Thompson — Just because it’s good doesn’t mean it’s from our Lord. The spirit of Antichrist and Christ are identical in action. So so what we’ve tried doing is saying, number one, we have to admit these three things are important. Number two, we have to come up with language for each one of them and affirm them. Number three, and you just did it live so I love this, you need to admit where you’re limited.

Jon Thompson — So you’re like, Jon, I mean we know each other you’re like One of my strongest spiritual gifts is leadership. That’s what you said. This is the way I immediately instinctually and spiritually react. So, Rich’s responsibility, if he was the senior pastor, is then to publicly talk about why he’s actually not biased in other directions and why he needs to be, and find other people to be that voice.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good.

Jon Thompson — Because a lot of people want to be open to this, but since they have not experienced it, they don’t know what to do. And I’m like, right, because it’s about interdependence. It’s not just about you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I think this is a great framework. And you know, it it explains what I can think think could be what’s missing in, you know, so many of our churches and you know we so many of us are are led by uh very gifted word-oriented gift people. Like our churches are led by those people…

Jon Thompson — Right.

Rich Birch — …and which is amazing…

Jon Thompson — Yep.

Rich Birch — …but we could miss the other two. And you know in the last year our mutual friend Jeff Brody said something and that resonates with what you were saying. He’s talked about, you know you might believe that it’s true, but is it real for you? And that has like resonated with me so so deeply. It’s similar to when you talked about you know conservatives defend what they don’t necessarily believe. And you know, does this actually work out in our lives, I think is a powerful idea.

Rich Birch — Now, there was a story in your book about a young woman who left Hinduism and then joined a reformed church.

Jon Thompson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I thought this was a vivid example. And particularly for us on the system side, I thought, oh, this is a good way to kind of systematize this…

Jon Thompson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …or think about this at a systems level. Can you unpack that story?

Jon Thompson — A hundred percent. And I just want to acknowledge as we keep going, I know the vast majority of your viewers or listeners are more probably on the system side executive pastor, like that type of leader, which by the way, without you, we all die. So thank you for all your service and what you do.

Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah. Yep.

Jon Thompson — We’re so thankful for you. But as we keep having this conversation, think this is a challenge for you to think deeply theologically, even before your systems, because what you systematize better be true.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jon Thompson — And so this is a great example of what we’re talking about. So I teach a course up here in a seminary on spiritual conflict, a very boring, non-controversial course. And so I was teaching this, I think it was two years ago now, and a young woman comes on and takes the course, and she is in tears at the end of one of the lectures. And ah and it’s all, it’s online. So so she said, can I meet?

Jon Thompson — So I said, yeah. She says, look, she said, I just, I was radically saved out of Hinduism, which is incredible, and and she said soI you know I became a christian, I renounced my hinduism, and I I have no background. Either my family are Hindus or atheists and nothing in between, which even shows you the contradiction there. Her family is made up of atheists and Hindus.

Rich Birch —Right.

Jon Thompson — Like she is the embodiment of what we’re talking about.

Rich Birch — Absolutely.

Jon Thompson — And so she says, well, I’m going to find a church. She goes to a very small Reformed church locally, like a Christian Reformed, Dutch Reformed church. They’re of course excited that she’s come to faith, which is great. The average age in the church is much older. She told me, I think she’s the first adult baptism in over a decade or maybe two.

Jon Thompson — So, because of course they’re covenantal, they baptize children overall. Fun. So he’s like, well, we want to hear your story. So she writes the whole story of encountering Jesus through visions and dealing with demons and Jesus setting her free. And so submits the the testimony, and the pastor edits every single encounter out of it. And this is like in the last three years in Toronto.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Jon Thompson —  This is in Toronto.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jon Thompson — And so she said, why have you edited this out? And he said, because I don’t fully understand this, though it’s true. My people will be afraid and I don’t want to make them afraid. And right there, she wept. And then she said to me. When I took your class, you not only affirmed everything that happened to me was true. Second of all, you gave me the theological principles and categories scripturally and historically to show that I am in the great line of succession of the church. If anyone should be defending the great line of succession of the church, it’s the Reformed kids. I mean, those reform kids.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jon Thompson —  And so what I want to point out is in that story, fear and lack of experience, and theological bias ended up quenching what the Spirit wanted to do.

Jon Thompson — And I just want to say to anyone listening. I’m not saying that every environment that you’ve been in has been perfect. I mean i think a lot of us have had experiences spiritually where people with right motives have done things wrong.

Rich Birch — Yep, true.

Jon Thompson — And we ended up getting hurt. So it’s sort of like dating. If you’ve ever dated and broken up or you married and and then and then got divorced, the amount of intensity it takes to re-engage is a lot.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jon Thompson — So there’s a lot of you listening, you’re like, Jon, I don’t want this conversation because I don’t want to touch that again. And I’m like, you have to. You have to. The scriptures are chock full of this. This is the only way we’re going to do well between retreat and revival, whether you’re in an environment where everyone’s a false nominal Christian or everyone’s not a Christian at all. This has been the pattern since the beginning. And it’s the way the Spirit works. So maybe I’d encourage some of you to pray about your fear and your anger. So you can get on with the thing.

Rich Birch — So good. and And I would say um this, what we’re talking about right here, that story of um you know, this this you know young Hindu woman who came to know Jesus, praise God, amazing story. And, you know, kind of God appearing in dreams and all of that. I feel like has, been or I don’t feel like, has become more normative in my church experience in the same kind of climate that that you’re in. And that was not normative 30 years ago when I started.

Rich Birch — Like, you know, it is this kind of like, you know, we have a laundry list of similar conversations where it’s like, you know people are having dreams and then wandering into church you know they’re having dreams on a Tuesday you know between Monday and Tuesday night and then they’re just wandering to the church because they’re like I think that’s a church over there. And are like hey, Jesus told me to come here. And you know then we end up having you know deeper conversations and they you know their life gets transformed.

Rich Birch — I don’t remember that stuff going on. That’s happening more, which makes sense, I think, in this context of you know this uh what did you call it repaganizing or you know pre-christian kind of context because, you know, the Spirit’s got to work directly. He’s got to, you know, get directly encounter people. So I think that’s, you know, interesting.

Rich Birch — So the people that might be because people listening and…you want to say something?

Jon Thompson — Well, I was just going to say, yes, and…

Rich Birch — Yep. Good.

Jon Thompson — 30 years ago, it was happening.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Jon Thompson — See, this is this is what we have to admit.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jon Thompson — It was happening, but we weren’t open.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.

Jon Thompson — So for a lot of you listening you’re like, well I don’t live in Toronto. I’m like, I know you don’t. But what you legitimize from your pulpit tells your people what you’re allowed to talk about.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Jon Thompson — So if you’re going to have a sincere conversation about love, word, and power, and how the Spirit really works evangelistically, whether you’re speaking again to a a cultural Christian or someone else, here’s the point. I guarantee you in the Bible Belt, lots of people are having dreams too.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jon Thompson — They just have been told that’s weird, and we don’t talk about that.

Rich Birch — Those are the kind of things we don’t talk about here. Yeah.

Jon Thompson —  Right.

Rich Birch — That’s good. Okay, so pivoting in a slightly different direction. One of the things that I love about Sanctus that’s, you know, if you’re kind of in the outer orbit of the church, eventually you’ll start to hear like, oh, they have a deliverance ministry over there. That’s not on the list of like, you know, men’s ministry, women’s ministry, pioneer girls, deliverance ministry that I hear like in so many churches out there. And you’ve had it for a long time. What does that actually look like? So like an average Tuesday, how does that fit into what’s going on at Sanctus?

Jon Thompson — Yeah, so this is a conversation we wanted nothing to do with. Again, we were just again, you know Willow Creek, seeker-sensitive, historic church.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jon Thompson — And this is like 27 years ago now where people started coming to us and they’re like, I think I have something happening in my life that is beyond psychological or biological wiring. And we were like, we are not that church that does that. That’s the weird people down the street. You know, we’ll deal with them in heaven, but you know. And the Lord wouldn’t give it up.

Jon Thompson — So 27 plus years later, I think we’ve had either been involved in or helped assist globally in a thousand cases. And just for, I love how you put that. It’s just normal for us. It’s not this thing. It’s a thing.

Jon Thompson — So for us, a worship team practice and, you know, a youth gathering taking place, an Alpha running and a deliverance having the same building is just normal. Because again, our bias on spiritual gifts is there’s 21 gifts, 21 directions. We need to try to make sure that all the gifts are employed in some way. And this is a certain group of gifts.

Jon Thompson — So, yeah, we’ve done it for years. The whole story of that is in the book, Deliverance, which I think you and I maybe have talked about. It’s coming out again in February through Zondervan Reflective.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jon Thompson — That’s the whole story. But like for us, dealing with the demonic, both in oppression issues and demonization issues and sanctification with Christians, but also evangelistically with non-Christians is just sort of normal.

Rich Birch — Yeah. So good.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I yeah there’s ah there’s a lot there that you I just think is kind of ah a great part of the story that God’s writing at your church, and I think can be instructive to many of us as we’re thinking about the future.

Rich Birch — So let’s let’s kind of draw in the person that’s listening, maybe like an executive pastor, church of, I don’t know, 800 to a thousand, something like that. And they’re struck by this idea this like ooh maybe we are only opening one door. We’re not talking about these other these other doors. We’re not engaged in any of that.

Rich Birch — Where would you suggest that they start? (Outside of actually picking up a copy of the book.) I you know I think that’s an obvious thing where we’re going to get to, but like outside of that, how would you help them think about um you know what they should be thinking about?

Jon Thompson — Yeah. So just to step back a little to this question. This book conversation we’re having is about how you deal with an environment where renewal and retreat are happening in the same place. That’s very true in our social media feeds and it’s true in a lot of our cities.

Jon Thompson — So I happen to know you and I happen to know your church. Because I’ve been conspiratorially involved behind the scenes at points. So your church’s own story is where all your people need to begin.

Jon Thompson — And it’s this. Only when the leaders decide not to resist God will things change. And what I mean by that is not like open rebellion against God. It’s this. The lead, I just happen to know there were moments in your church’s own story where the leaders went, you know what? We’re not going to resist you anymore, Lord. What do you want to do?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jon Thompson — That was it. That and that’s not, you know, like earthquake you know, feel. But it changed everything. I mean what are you starting this week? Is it this week you’re starting? 30 days of like. praying, or has that happened?

Rich Birch — Well, yeah, we’ve done that already, which is amazing, and but there’s more of that coming…

Jon Thompson — Yep. Right. But…

Rich Birch — …like it’s there’s there’s lots of that stuff happening that wasn’t happening 10 years ago for sure.

Jon Thompson — Right. The inception point, though, is when people just went like this. You know what? We’re afraid.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jon Thompson — We don’t understand. We prefer system over encounter. We prefer system over encounter and they’re not in competition, but both have to be there. So, Lord, what do you want to say? What do you want to do? That’s the starting point.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jon Thompson — Because before you work out the theology of love, word, and power and start thinking about how you, you know, witness to people from all the nations and not have a you know a vicious reaction towards them. And how you think through the, like all that.

Jon Thompson — The first place is you say to the Lord, I won’t fight you. And the truth is the vast majority of us love God, but don’t trust him. And I said this on a former podcast with you. And and and lots of executive pastors, when they hear me talk, way more than this, get nervous because this starts sounding like Pandora’s box. Well, how do I systematize this? And what would be the implications?

Jon Thompson — And I’m like, yeah, before any of that conversation, have you said to the Lord, whatever you want to do, I won’t I won’t fight you.

Rich Birch — So good.

Jon Thompson — Most pastors would say they have not prayed that. I don’t think. I also think, too, there are a series of systems that relate to what happens in an empowered encounterist church, a systemized church, and then a church going through a revival. Three very different things. And there’s there’s a set of systems.

Rich Birch — You want to unpack…you want to unpack that a little bit?

Jon Thompson — Yeah, sure. So I mean, there are lots of amazing churches that are commonly faithful who serve communion and preach God’s word and help the poor. And and and and those are all guaranteed places of encounter according to the scriptures. And so amazing. They’re that’s good. That’s right. That’s holy. And that’s one expression of it.

Jon Thompson — When you start saying to the holy spirit not only common faithfulness but anything else you’d like to do? At that moment I have a saying, most people praying for revival aren’t praying for revival, they’re praying for a normal church on Monday, they just don’t know it.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jon Thompson — And what I mean by that is most people praying for revival are actually praying for a church where the Spirit is more present, there are more encounters, and everyone’s using their gifts and loving each other better. That’s not revival. That is actually what it’s supposed to be. So when you have a whole group of encounters taking place more than a system, there are other things you have to adjust like we’ve done.

Jon Thompson — For example, you start asking your volunteers, what are your spiritual gifts? You start clarifying from the front what encounters look like. You start building house rules of how encounters are handled. It’s part of your intake process. You think about this through pastoral care. There’s no dismissing of experience. You now become an interpreter of experience 24-7.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jon Thompson — So like there’s that. And then there’s revival. And revival is a sovereign act of God where everything falls apart, and all sin is revealed, and there’s en masse healing. And if it’s a genuine move of God that moves from renewal to revival to awakening, there’s en masse conversion.

Jon Thompson — And as I share in the book, because we went through a three year experience with that, it was documented. There’s another set of organizational rules. I was meeting with a lot of leaders in England for the last three years because they are experiencing this genuinely. And I was just telling them what we went through historically. And I used the analogy for the executive pastors or the admin leaders saying, You’ve got to think about renewal and revival like being on a bike. And I said, you’re all English and you all ride bikes, so you should be fine.

Jon Thompson —  And I just said, you know how there are gears on a bike? And I just said, when a move of God actually takes place, you have one set of things that are in place for that. And then when you go back to normal, you use another set. And we just said, you have to have a code word for your staff where you literally say, Monday was normal. Wednesday is now not normal, so the whole system collapses and now looks like this. And when the Spirit walks back, you go, okay. We’re going back to the other gear.

Jon Thompson — That thinking is incredibly important in renewal and revival environments for sustainability of staff, for clarification of experience, and also for literal helping people not burn out. Because when God shows up, all hell and heaven break loose. And and maybe I’ll just throw this out quickly too.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jon Thompson — We should never forget that a lot of people dismiss revival-like environments because a lot of things are done wrong. And that’s a horrific starting point. Actually, that’s true in all of this.

Jon Thompson — So we forget that, you know, I don’t know if I said this on this pod one of this one of these episodes, but we forget that that that Moses went up the mountain. The people were looking at the physical Shekinah glory of God. And while God was present in the most magnificent of way, they still built the golden calf in real time while they’re looking at him.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jon Thompson — So anytime there’s a significant move of God, the devil is in the room, the flesh is in the room, and God’s in the room at the same time. If you think God’s just going to be in the room, you’re going to end up dismissing much of what he’s done.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. Talk about, you kind of you breezed over this, but I think it’s an important piece of the puzzle—the connection between repentance and revival, you know, and how repentance fits into the overall picture. The reason why I asked that, I don’t know, a year ago, I was at an event where a bunch of leaders were there and there was a Gen Z leader who has been involved in some stuff that’s been going on. And led like a public confession experience with the leaders that were there. And he was challenging us around you know, basically the question was like, well, why why is why repentance? Why is that such a big deal?

Rich Birch — And this leader, which I loved, you know, was like, Well, hasn’t that isn’t that always the way? Like isn’t that what isn’t that what this is about? Like aren’t we aren’t we shouldn’t repentance be a part of the transformation of Jesus in in our lives like that? How can you separate those two? And I was like, oh yeah, right.

Rich Birch — But I think that that… issue could be the fear you know you’ve mentioned talked about fear a little bit could be a part of the fear that’s in many leaders lives today.

Jon Thompson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — It’s like man, I’m not sure I want to engage that. Unpack that.

Jon Thompson — Yeah, so I’ll I’ll I’ll do it like this. The language we’ve come up with, because I always find that categories are helpful for translation and expectations. So we always talk about renewal as the recovery of first love in an individual’s life.

Jon Thompson — Revival is a sovereign act of God that he initiates and he ends. Awakening is when mass conversions take place out of a revival. What you’re talking about is probably the renewal category even more than the revival.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jon Thompson — Revival people tend to mush everything together, which is never helpful.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jon Thompson — And it really bothers me.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good.

Jon Thompson — So and I’m friends with lots of the people.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. That’s good.

Jon Thompson — So I keep helping I keep saying, please, please help us.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jon Thompson — So here’ here’s what I would say about you know repentance. Yes, of course, it’s always part of the thing. Of course it is. And It’s a fascinating reflection when we look at Adam and Eve. The very first thing that Adam and Eve did when they sinned is they hid. So hiddenness is the first sign of trouble. Then they tried fashioning something to cover their hiddenness. Then, of course, God comes and finds them, exposes them and gives them a better, of course, covering.

Jon Thompson — Why this matters is this gets back to the love and trust thing. Lots of us are comfortable with Jesus at the wedding of Cana. Most of us are not okay with Jesus glorified at the Mount of Transfiguration. Or actually the encounter between Jesus and John in Revelation 1.

Jon Thompson — And so I think a lot of times as leaders, and and let me just say this boldly too, your people will not go beyond you. You are Moses to your movement. And so I think saying to the Lord, you know, I’m open to what you would say to me, good or bad. And would you help me be in a position where I would want to repent.

Jon Thompson — And I think this is okay to say. Regularly, I pray that the Holy Spirit would give me desires I don’t have. Because I don’t have lots of desires for repentance or you know.

Rich Birch — Right, right. That’s good.

Jon Thompson — So I think for leaders listening, whether God decides sovereignly to bring revival to your church or awakening to your area is not the starting point. That’s actually a sovereign decision. And in in the book, I talk about how I’m really concerned these days that everyone’s saying revival’s coming, revival’s coming. I’m like, actually, the Bible says revival’s not guaranteed. You have to ask if he’s decided to come. If he says, yes, you pray back the prayers, then all Heaven and hell breaks out.

Jon Thompson — But if he doesn’t do that, in other words, if summer doesn’t come and you’re stuck in winter you still have to be involved in common faithfulness, including no hiddenness as a leader. And so anyone listening, I would just encourage you to trust the goodness of the God you continually tell others to trust in.

Jon Thompson — I was writing a section. yesterday for a sermon I’m doing out of Mark where, you know, Martha is serving in Lazarus’s house and Mary takes the nard and smashes it on Jesus’s feet. And Judas gets really pissed off and says, how dare you do this?

Jon Thompson —  And I was reflecting on how her—everyone ready, system leaders?—her uncontrolled, embarrassing, inappropriate public activity exposed his double life. And so I just want to challenge everyone that when genuine encounter starts happening, systems are not the enemy, but it will expose double lives.

Rich Birch — So good, Jon, this is I feel like we could go for so long about these things. And I’m always got I got a page of notes here and other questions I’d love to ask you. But this is super helpful.

Rich Birch — So the thing for folks that haven’t been tracking along, you’ve been writing a number of books.

Jon Thompson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And that, you know, and they they hang together as a bit of a the thing you’re tricking people into is it’s like they think it’s one book, but really it’s like it’s like a Tolkien, more than trilogy. Kind of talk to us how these all fit together. At least that’s how I see them. I see them as like, it’s kind of one continuous conversation around the similar kind of stuff. How does Presence, this current work, fit in the context of the other stuff that you’re working on?

Jon Thompson — Sure. You are right about the conspiracy. And I’ll take I’ll take the Tolkien nod.

Rich Birch — Yes, I figured you’d like that.

Jon Thompson — That’s very kind of you, because I don’t deserve it. I only quote him once in all my books, though. So the only once for one section.

Rich Birch — Oh nice. Yes.

Jon Thompson — ah Yeah, here’s how I would say it. Convergence is the is the story and the theology of how we wrestled down love, word, and power from the gift side of things. How it was implemented. How we move, basically what is the theology thing what is it what does it feel like, how do you actually build house rules around it, all the good and bad that happened with it, and then tells the story of the renewal and revival we went through, and how we survived it. So that’s book one.

Jon Thompson — Book two, well, it’s not really book two anymore, but I’ll do it like this. Deliverance, which comes out in February, is a 25-plus year theological and practical experience of how we dealt with the demonic.

Jon Thompson — Perseverance, book three, which is still out which will disappear soon, is all my reflections at the midway point on survivability, because you and I have talked about this before, only 30% of leaders in the Bible end well; 70% fail. The stats have not changed. So there’s a lot of the first two things involved in this.

Jon Thompson — This book Presence is talking honestly about retreat and revival, talking about incarnation and why multiple models of church that feeling contradiction to each other is the point. That’s always been the point, which again, for a lot of you as admin leaders, I’d really beg you to read this, not because it’s my book. Because a lot of the battles between churches is a misunderstanding of mission.

Jon Thompson — And then I talk about how love, word, and power are employed evangelistically, and then walk again through revival and how you can ask for it and what you do if He says yes or no. But the majority of the book is actually on long-term witness to a very diverse, complicated world.

Rich Birch — Yeah, so good.

Jon Thompson — That’s the trellis.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jon Thompson —  And the book I’m writing right now is on suffering, but we’re not there yet.

Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Friends, I would strongly encourage you, you know, listen, I’ve had multiple friends, multiple teams who have just been incredibly blessed by by Jon’s work and has challenged and done the best kind of disruptive work that this kind of thinking can do. And so i would strongly endorse uh you know that you pick up copies of Presence for your team.

Rich Birch — This could be a great um you know resource to work through with your leaders and ask the question all the time. So what does that mean for us? What does that mean for us? What does that mean for us? Don’t just let these be ideas in your head, but something you can really wrestle with.

Rich Birch — Where do we want to send people to pick up, you know, to get copies and all that stuff. I’m assuming you can get them on Amazon, but are there other places we want to let people know about?

Jon Thompson — Yeah, so Amazon, of course, is easy for all of us these days. But jonthompsonresources.com has it too. J-O-N. Jon Thompson Resources will have all of that. Like I said, Convergence is out. Presence comes out September 22nd. Deliverance is re-released in February 2027. And Perseverance is available now and will disappear and then we’ll come back…

Rich Birch — It’s like the Disney vault.

Jon Thompson — …sooner than later. It is like, it’s like the Disney. Yes, it is like the Disney vault.

Rich Birch — That’s a throwback to the, the you know for people of a certain age, we’ll get that. And Gen Z friends will be like, what? What are you talking about?

Rich Birch — Well, Jon, I just also want to just publicly honor you. You’re you’re doing a fantastic job. Like it’s been fun to watch over the years, your continued leadership and the positive impact you’ve been having and the community that you have stewarded. And you know I can’t I love when you know more people get a chance to interact with you. So thanks so much for being here on the show today. Appreciate your time with us. Thank you.

Jon Thompson — Yeah, thanks for your friendship and your prayers.

 

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jason Hildebrand, founder of Presence Creative Arts. For nearly 30 years, Jason has used acting, storytelling, film, and coaching to help people encounter scripture in fresh ways while creating space to listen for the voice of God.

How can churches use art and storytelling to help people slow down and engage with God more deeply? What happens when creativity becomes less about delivering a message and more about creating space for transformation? Tune in as Jason shares the journey behind The Shepherd and the Sound, a contemplative film exploring the life of David, and the lessons he has learned about creativity, obedience, presence, and storytelling.

To learn more about Jason Hildebrand and Presence Creative Arts, visit presencecreativearts.com. You can also explore The Shepherd and the Sound and learn about screenings and resources at theshepherdandthesoundfilm.com.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Intulse

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. Listen, friends, give us this next half an hour or so, and I think you’re going to be challenged and encouraged. I think it’s going great conversation.

Rich Birch — This is a person that I have, you know, a friend of a friend we met, and I want you to meet them as well. But more than that, I think that this conversation could lead to something that could really help your church later this year, maybe into next year. I want to introduce you to Jason Hildebrand. He runs, leads an organization called Presence Creative Arts.

Rich Birch — It was formed close to 25 years ago, or the deep desire to create and perform authentic, hope-filled, spirit-infused stories. Part storyteller, he’s part creative catalyst. This is going to be a fantastic conversation. He’s produced a bunch of different projects that we’re going to get a chance to kind of tiptoe into, learn a little bit more about. Jason, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.

Jason Hildebrand — Hey Rich, thanks so much. So great to be here.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I’m pumped to to kind of have this conversation.

Jason Hildebrand — Me as well.

Rich Birch — So friends, to to pull back the veil a little bit, Jason’s a friend of a friend.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And we were talking a little bit about what he does. And I started digging in and literally I thought, man, I’ve got to get Jason on the podcast. So for folks who maybe have not encountered Presence Creative Arts, take us back and kind of tell us the story.

Jason Hildebrand — Sure.

Rich Birch — How did this whole thing get started?

Jason Hildebrand — Well, funny enough, my my wife was saying to me yesterday, in September, isn’t it 30 years, Jason? And I was like, oh my gosh, 30 years.

Rich Birch — Oh, ah that’s funny.

Jason Hildebrand — So we were like, whoa, it kind of snuck up on us.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — But I mean, the whole genesis was, ah you know, I’m an actor by trade. I have a undergrad and a master’s in acting. And, you know, all those years ago, I graduated from York University in Toronto, Canada, and went out and I was like the fresh young wanted to be in, you know, Hollywood movies or to do Shakespeare or whatever. And, and in the midst of all that, God just like, halted the whole thing and had me completely move in an entirely different direction. And my first solo theater show was on the life of David.

Jason Hildebrand — And I had a district superintendent in the denomination that I was a part of take me around to all the pastors conferences. And I he would speak and I would perform. And that was kind of like the beginning of what I never would have conceived would become a career. And now 30 years later, like a full company with employees and and you know projects and all those kind of things. And yeah I was an actor who just wanted to get on stage. And and really really, the thing is, and and I’ve learned this over the 30 years, is that my place of deepest listening for the voice of God is in front a whole bunch of people standing, which is really a weird thing to say.

Jason Hildebrand — But, you know, I think it speaks to how we’re all wired differently and we need to find that thing that allows us to hear most clearly the voice of God. And that’s often the place for me.

Jason Hildebrand — I think a lot of it has to do with that. I really feel responsible for bringing the the the show on David was, you know, it’s almost word for word scripture. So I feel responsible like any pastor or preacher would be like, I’m bringing this thing and I need to be aligned inside and out.

Jason Hildebrand — But that that kind of grew. And so we did more. I did more. It was first just me. And I did that, toured all over the world, performing those things.

Jason Hildebrand — Then I had I did a show on the Book of Job, which was very um gruesome in some ways, but quite intense. And and I’ve been revisiting that ah that in the last little while. Series of monologues in the prodigal son, I’ve done Abraham.

Jason Hildebrand — And then I adapted Donald Miller’s book, Blue Like Jazz. That was kind of a kind of took us to the next level with what we were doing. It was a multimedia show and we kind of toured it all over Canada and the US before the film came out, like the film film that that that Steve Taylor and Donald Miller made.

Jason Hildebrand — And we’ve just grown this over the over the course of, you know, 30 years. And right before the we right as the pandemic happened, you know, we had this great season coming up. We were touring and and I also do a lot of coaching with pastors, both on communication and listening to God, work with Arrow Leadership and a bunch of other organizations. I think one of the things they don’t teach you in seminary very well, in my opinion, that is just my opinion.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — My experience was they teach you how to exegete text really well. Oftentimes, they don’t teach you how to communicate that to small rooms and large rooms very effectively. And so I’ve been working with pastors for years on you know voice burnout, communication, how do you hit the back of this how do you hit the back of the auditorium with your thoughts? All those kind of things.

Jason Hildebrand — But COVID hits, and we have this great season, and everything falls apart. And God directs us and we’re just we had a donor come to us. We’re we sit under a not-for-profit umbrella as well. And donor came to us and said, well, what would you do if you had money? And at that time, you know we everything on social media was doom and gloom and everything was falling apart.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — And and I thought, could we craft something like short bursts of permission to be present in your life, short bursts of hope, and just release those for free into the world.

Jason Hildebrand — And so this donor, I was telling him, you know, I think we could we could make short films on the Psalms. And those would be kind of like little, little breaths of fresh air. And so he gave us a, this couple gave us a, you know, a chunk of money. And we ended up making seven films that kind of blew up on Facebook and went all over the world. And, and we’ve since shot 11, but that kind of shift into media happened.

Jason Hildebrand — And then out of that, ah the last basically five years of my life, which has been um crafting this new film rooted in that original story 30 years ago on the life of David…

Rich Birch — That’s crazy.

Jason Hildebrand — …but a contemplative film on the life of David called The Shepherd and the Sound, which we shot in Scotland. So that’s been kind of the like very Coles Notes version of of of what we’ve been doing. But you know I think the biggest, highest value is, as a company, we have ah a very high value on um listening for the voice of God, cultivating that. And, and if he all of a sudden tells us to go left instead of right, I want to be, I want to be, we want to be nimble enough to be able to shift like that.

Jason Hildebrand — And oftentimes it’s not the most popular choice or even the most lucrative choice, but, but I’m more interested in the kingdom choice that I have in the other things. So, you know, that’s, that’s kind of our framework of of what we do and and kind of the, you know, the, but the timeline of things.

Jason Hildebrand — And, uh, so, you know, it’s, it’s been, it’s been it’s been wild. It’s definitely 100% not where I thought I would be, you know, 30 years ago, but like I could not be more grateful that we get to kind of both care…

Jason Hildebrand — The other values that we have are like carrying presence in story and this kind of thing. I know that we’ve had the the chat about this before, but it’s it’s I think I grew up in ah in a culture that was very high on the on on exegeting and the mind. And here’s how we pull apart one word and these kind of things. And here’s how we do things. And it’s very linear. And that’s great stuff. I think we need to be still doing that.

Jason Hildebrand — But I had an the reason that I even did anything that I did is that i watched a guy. There’s an actor and named Bruce Kuhn. And he, my wife and I were dating at the time, she was going to McMaster University, and she invited me to this one man show on the book of Luke, King James Luke.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And I was dragged kicking and screaming as about Oh, my goodness, it’s gonna be some crappy Christian theater, and I don’t want to go see it. And that was the first time watching that guy was incredible. And that was the first time I actually encountered scripture. It came alive in me and I was like, oh, that’s what I’ve been reading for all these years. Oh, that that with real people, with real stories.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — And I think that marked me in a way that has been significant and transformative. And and it’s it’s so much of what I my heart is to impart through Presence in what we’re doing.

Rich Birch — Love it. And you know friends that are listening in like I’ve known of Jason for a while. Like you know we’re we’re in similar circles. Like you know, obviously…

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …church world in Canada is not the biggest thing. And but I had I had heard specifically about this project, The Shepherd and The Sound. And I was like, what on earth did he do that? And then saw trailer and was super intrigued and you know wanted to lean in. And and you put a word to this there that I’ve always appreciated about your work. I’ve actually years ago i remember seeing you um it might have even been like one of those youth things or something years ago.

Rich Birch — And and the the part I’ve struck by your handling of scripture of these stories that we’ve been telling each other for thousands of years that are true is you, and this is my language, not your language, but you’re doing a better job here talking about Presence, but it’s like, you’ve humanized them in a similar way that, and I was thinking about this over the weekend before we called—you know, I, I was ah my wife dragged me to The Chosen.

Jason Hildebrand — Oh, yeah. Right.

Rich Birch — And was like, I was like, I do not want to see more crappy Christian media.

Jason Hildebrand — Yes. Right.

Rich Birch — And I have been struck by the very human moments in that art and actually have thought a lot about what you do and thought like, oh, there’s ah there’s a resonance there. It’s obviously different. It’s a different kind of thing.

Rich Birch — But there’s a similar kind of piece there where it’s like, are we brave enough to kind of look at the human side of what’s happening? And so tell me about The Shepherd and The Sound. I think this is a crazy project.

Jason Hildebrand — It’s been a crazy project.

Rich Birch — When I saw this, I was like, tell me about it.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — Just kind of unpack it, what it is.

Jason Hildebrand — Sure. Well, I mean, thank you for saying that. I mean, I’m very interested, I used to call it, you know, enfleshing, but that got a little bit weird. I think people thought it was a weird, but more more like embodying.

Jason Hildebrand — I have this solo performance that I still do on the life on the life of Jesus called Jesus Stories. And the number one comment is, oh, he oh Jesus had emotions. Oh oh oh oh, wait a minute. He laughed. Oh, he was he was he was upset. Oh, wait, he’s passionate about loving people. Like just very human things.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — And I think, like you said, The Chosen has done a brilliant job of you know um allowing Jesus to be both a human being and God at the same time. But The Shepherd and the Sound, yeah.

Jason Hildebrand — So, I mean, I’ve been dreaming about doing a film version of um of of the David my David show for maybe a decade. And I didn’t know what it I didn’t know what I was supposed to be doing. I didn’t know what it looked like. And then again, during COVID, I’d written like a full cast treatment.

Jason Hildebrand — What ended up, you know, what’s interesting now is that House of David came out on ah on Amazon and it’s it’s very amazing. Like it’s it’s quite it’s quite great, especially so season two is quite great.

Jason Hildebrand — And I realized why that God was like, actually, you’re not supposed to do this. You’re supposed to do that because those people are going to do this. And I was like, oh, okay, I get it. And they’re way more qualified than than I was to attempt something like that.

Jason Hildebrand — But all I kept hearing was go to Scotland. and ah and connect with a couple of people you know there. And and and so I went, my my film partner, Tad Munnings and I, he’s with StoryStream Creative, and we we we kind of location scouted to Scotland.

Jason Hildebrand — And we have this friend, this incredible playwright, screenwriter named Murray Watts, who owns a castle in Northern Scotland called Fresic. As people do.

Rich Birch — Yes, as one does.

Jason Hildebrand — I know it’s it’s it’s actually a Christian retreat center.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — So if you want to have the most extraordinary experience, go to this castle. It’s ah it’s ah really an Airbnb castle, which is wild, in the northern very northern tip of Scotland.

Jason Hildebrand — But one of the one of the best things I ever did for my for my company was form an intercessory prayer board. And it’s just a small handful of people that kind of lift us up, which I just cannot be more grateful for those folks.

Jason Hildebrand — So two of those people live in Wales. and And so I when we were hitting Glasgow, I picked Tad up in Glasgow, and we were about to head up north. And i was they said, can you hop on a Zoom call? There are folks that pray for Europe on a regular basis, this this these these two people and their group, part of the twenty four seven prayer movement.

Jason Hildebrand — And so I said, sure. So I hopped on the call and my friend Charlotte from Wales, who’s on my board, says, hey, can you just tell everybody what you’re up to? And so I was like, OK. So I said, you know, I think we’re supposed to do a film on David. I think it’s supposed to be in the north. I think it’s supposed to be kind of like man wrestling with the with his the demons of his past. I mean, David’s life is mostly a disaster after he becomes king.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — And uh and and uh and we don’t have any money. And uh I thought it was supposed to be a full ensemble cast but now I’m kind of hearing no it’s supposed to be more contemplative and it’s supposed to be a guy wandering around the landscape. And I thought—this was my argument with God prior to the prior to that—it’s like who wants to watch a guy wandering around. And then he reminded me of Castaway and he said that’s a pretty good movie. And was like oh yeah I guess that’s true.

Jason Hildebrand — But anyway, so I’m on this call with these folks, these lovely intercessors, and there’s 25 of them on the call. And I tell them all this, and they said, oh, you have to shoot next summer. And I said, what do what do you mean you have to shoot next summer?

Jason Hildebrand — And they said, we are on the cusp of the 100th anniversary of a number of revivals that came out of northern Scotland that changed the world.

Rich Birch — wow

Jason Hildebrand — And God wants to pour out his spirit through Scotland to the nations, and you need to be part of that. And I was like, whoa.

Rich Birch — Wow. Okay.

Jason Hildebrand — Whoa, okay.

Rich Birch — I thought I was just coming on a Zoom call.

Jason Hildebrand — Well, I don’t even, quite I didn’t. Do you have money? Like, I don’t know.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — Like, does anybody, you know?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — And, you know, this is not how you plan how to do a project or a film shoot. Normally you have everything lined up. The money’s lined up. The script’s lined up. And and but God tends to throw me off a cliff, or asks me to jump off the cliff. And then as I’m plummeting to my doom, he shows up, you know, and rescues.

Jason Hildebrand — So so I come back home and all I’m feeling, Rich, in my spirit is I want you to book all the flights and accommodation for your whole crew.

Jason Hildebrand — And I’m like, I don’t I don’t have any of the money. Like I don’t even have enough. We were in a season just coming out of COVID. but I didn’t even and have enough money to pay my staff. We were just like scraping by. And so I’m like, I, so I’m wrestling with God over this. This is stupid. This is irresponsible. And I send a note to my intercessory prayer board and say, Hey guys, here’s what I’m hearing.

Jason Hildebrand — And they all went back and came to, they said, yep, that’ that’s good. You’re on, you’re on track. And I was like, what? And then I sent a note to my board, like my board of advisors. And I, and I said, here’s what I’m, and I have people on my board on purpose that tell me no, cause I tend to be a bit of a dreamer.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — But I have those kind of like check me people on my on my board.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Jason Hildebrand — And I said, here’s what I’m hearing. What do you think? And they all went, yep, you’re hearing right. And I was like, what are you talking about? When is it responsible to take out loans?

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And like, when is that’s not responsible? But they were both affirming me.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — So the next week I am in, I’m at a retreat center that’s just built this massive new building.

Jason Hildebrand — It’s a 30 year vision and I’m performing as part of their thank you to all the people that helped build this building, a vision. Five million dollar building, incredible. It’s really extraordinary. And I’m sitting at the dinner before performing next to one of their board members. And she turns to me and she says, oh, Jason, so what do you do? And I said, well, and I’m an actor. I have a creative arts company. Well, what are you working on? Well, I’ve just been to Scotland and I’m thinking about doing this thing. She goes, oh, I see a picture.

Jason Hildebrand — And I go, ah okay, what? She goes, yeah, there’s a ledger. And all the income and expenses add up to zero at the bottom. And the Lord says, just go do what I told you to do.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — So, i mean I mean, I don’t roll in lots of like prophetic charis…

Rich Birch — Yes, that’s not normative.

Jason Hildebrand — Like this is not my, nor like I’m I have great value for the prophetic and for for words of knowledge…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — …but I don’t roll in kind of a lot of those worlds.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jason Hildebrand — So I’m like, okay, cool. Like, okay. So I came home, Rich, and I was just like, okay, God, I hear you. And so I did it. I went to the bank. And as you know, as as as ah as ah as a small business owner, it’s like you got to go through all the rigmarole. I increased my line of credit. I increased my credit cards. And I put 50 grand on on on credit.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And I thought, well, after 25 years, Lord, you’re actually either we’re going down in a blaze of glory or you actually talked to me. Like, I don’t know what it is, but here it is, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — So, and then I left it. And then as soon as I did it, I felt complete peace about it, which was shocking to me. And I was kind of grumpy with God. Like, okay, like I should be very stressed out about this, for Lord. So anyway, I left it, man. and And then two weeks later, I’m at a completely separate event.

Jason Hildebrand — It has nothing to do with my company. And but there’s a donor couple there that has given to our work before. And they say, yeah oh we hear you’re working on ah on a movie on David. And I said, yeah, yeah, working on David.

Jason Hildebrand — Well, you know, tell us about it. So I’m doing all the good due diligence things, right? Here’s our outcomes. Here’s what we’re hoping to achieve. Here’s the blah, blah, blah. All of things, you know, in art, it’s almost impossible to measure, you know, the the art.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — Like, you know…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — These are 18 people had their hearts changed by this piece of art. Right.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — But anyway, I’m doing all the things you’re supposed to do. And they said, well, how much money is it going to take to get to the other side of of filming this thing? And I said, well, probably about 200 grand. And I hadn’t done any fundraising yet…

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Jason Hildebrand — …but I’m 50 grand in the hole. And they looked at each other and they looked back at me and they said, yeah, we can do that.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And, and they wrote me a check, Rich, for 200 grand the next week.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And that was the start of, we went back three times. God was as, even as we went and began to shoot, he was, we came back the first time and we’re like, that’s not it. We went back three times and he began to reveal that what he really wanted in the process and more and more money cut coming in another hundred thousand, another two, another 50,000.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — Like, you know, we, the, the budget ended up being over 600 grand for this thing. And, um, Just extraordinary miracle after extraordinary miracle, both while we were filming and in providing for the filming.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Jason Hildebrand — It’s really incredible. And so in the process, what this is this is was the big learning for me. One is he wanted us to tell a tale to give space for people to slow down and to listen.

Jason Hildebrand — I think we live in an age of distraction and disconnection. And what he was asking us to craft, and i’m not I wasn’t clever enough to figure this out. He revealed it and as we were as we were doing it.

Jason Hildebrand — But what is the way we can help people slow down as they’re on their phones and they’re busy and they’ve got this thing and the other thing? To create space within the context of the film to literally almost in a way cause people to slow down and feel uncomfortable.

Jason Hildebrand — We did a screening of the film and a lady said…And I tell people it’s going to cause you to feel uncomfortable.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — She says, I’m so glad you did that because halfway through it through the film, I reached for my phone and I went, oh, no, Jason asked me to to like be present in the in the film. And that present moment was a catalyst to massive transformation in her heart.

Jason Hildebrand — But so the first thing was like help people to slow down and connect to what’s going on in the side themselves, in community with God.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jason Hildebrand — And the second thing is, is, and I didn’t, need I would have never even thought this, is to invite people to find themselves in the story. So you’re both having a moment to be present and connect with who you are and who God made you to be and and God himself.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jason Hildebrand — And also then go, oh, my story, there’s moments in this David story that actually resonate with my journey right now. And that was like a revelation to myself and our team. And then out of that, we you know also built an immersive gallery, like think Stations of the Cross meets Immersive Van Gogh and a small group resource to go with it.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jason Hildebrand — That was very non-Bible study-y.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Jason Hildebrand — It’s kind of a small group resource for people who don’t like Bible study-y resources. You know what I mean?

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Okay, there’s a lot I want to unpack there. So ah friends that are listening in, want, I want so um You listen to a lot of podcasts. You do a lot of things.

Jason Hildebrand — Sure.

Rich Birch — You’ve listened to us. That’s great. I want you to go and watch the trailer. We will link to the trailer in the show notes.

Jason Hildebrand — Cool.

Rich Birch — You can even stop now and go and do that. Or at the end, I want you to watch the trailer because I think obviously it’s hard to talk about this and without seeing it.

Jason Hildebrand — True. Yeah.

Rich Birch — So I would, I want people to, to do that. But come back to this idea. So put us, put us, one of the stories I want people to hear is your just obedience. Like, that’s incredible. Like, I think that’s amazing. Like, and want to honor you for that. It would have been easy to shut that down at multiple points in that story and just be like, no, I’m not hearing this. Like I move on. So just honor you for that.

Jason Hildebrand — Thank you.

Rich Birch — And the fact To me, that feels very Jesus-y. That feels that that feels like the Jesus I know where he’s like, hey, you got to take a step here and then I’m going to step in and help. That feels like, man, I’ve seen that time and time again.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And so that’s that’s incredible.

Rich Birch — Give us a sense of on the ground. So you’re shooting this thing.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Again, it’s dramatic. It’s it’s contemplative. It’s um, what was that experience like? What did you take away from that as a performer, as a leader? You know talk us through that.

Jason Hildebrand — Well, I would say first and foremost, one of my greatest one of my greatest joys is getting to getting to work with extraordinary people. I think that I’ve always thought I need to find the people that are better at me than doing the thing and invite them into my world so I can learn and grow and we can bring those people in. So we had an extraordinary cinematographer, or sound person, all these. Got to bring a couple of my kids with me over the course of the time too to do Begrips, which is really cool.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Jason Hildebrand — But I mean, we’re shooting in Northern Scotland. So, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s magic. I mean, the, the place is, the place is wild. But we, we, we location scouted and showed up when we’re a little bit like, Lord, where’s the fertile ground?

Jason Hildebrand — Like we’ve not, we’ve been here once. We don’t know where we, we actually don’t know how to frame this whole thing. You’ve got to direct us. And so we would, we, in the morning we would pray, like show us where we’re supposed to go. And we would, we would, I mean, of course we had, we had a plan.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — You know we entered in with a plan, but oftentimes the plan would be like, I think we should go here.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — You know, I think we should go there. I mean, we went the first time we went, this is hilarious.

Jason Hildebrand — I didn’t know much about sheep. And of course the whole film is about David. So there needs to be sheep around. And we actually, we actually hired a shepherd to bring sheep into, into a field that he owned. And the sheep would not come near me.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — Like just would not come anywhere. Like we tried to wrangle them. It was horrible, horrible, horrible.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jason Hildebrand — And then the second time we went, it was just myself and my director, film partner. And we ended up being on the Isle of Skye. And it was probably the most, one of the most extraordinary moments that we had in the film, which was, you know, I my my my Tad is, my film partner, is like very super uber in shape guy. And I’m in shape, but not to his his level.

Jason Hildebrand — So we’re kind of hiking all over Scotland. He’s got most of the gear. He’s got the bag and the camera and the thing and the drone, and I’m carrying the tripod and all the different things. And so we go to this one place and it’s, it’s, it’s literally like ah like a sheer rock face that goes up and then like kind of a meadow on the top of it. Not very big, but it’s glorious and you’re right on the ocean.

Jason Hildebrand —And um so we had already hiked in off the main road about two hours through bogs and different things. And it, know, it’s, it’s bonkers trying to hike in Scotland. We called it the the radical common sense country because there’s no warnings anywhere.

Jason Hildebrand — Like if you fall off the cliff, you’re just stupid. You shouldn’t have fallen on off the cliff. There’s like in North America, we’d have like a thousand like signs saying you’re going to fall off the cliff, but not in Scotland.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. No.

Jason Hildebrand — They just look at you and go, that was stupid.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Jason Hildebrand — But so we we we get to the bottom of this rock face after we’ve climbed up. And I’m just like, he says, I think we should climb up. It’s like a three-story rock face, right?

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And I’m thinking, there’s no way I’m climbing up that three-story rock face. And he’s like, I’ve got you. Like, I have got you. And I’m like, okay, you know, if I die, my wife is going to come kill you. And then she’s going to come to meet Jesus and she’s going to kill me again. Like, you know, this is not good. But he, so he helped me climb this rock face. And it was, it was, I was the most scared I’ve ever been in my life.

Rich Birch — Amazing. Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And then as I’m going up, I’m thinking, I got to come down. Like, I gotta come down. So, but the the extraordinary part was, so we come up and he goes, okay, I’m just gonna scurry down and I’m gonna throw the drone up.

Jason Hildebrand — And so sit in this one place and I’m gonna put the drone around. And this is this is the magic of the whole thing. And I’ve had so many people say, is this, did you guys do this with CGI?

Rich Birch — Oh, nice.

Jason Hildebrand — So the the the sun is setting in the background, on the ocean, on the top of a cliff, beautiful green meadow on the top. So Tad puts the drone up and the battery immediately dies. He’s like, ah crap. So it comes back to him, puts in a second battery. And as he’s coming up, the the drone goes up and starts to circle around me. And as he’s doing that, five sheep come out of nowhere up onto the platform one by one. Look at me. And I’m just like, we hadn’t seen any sheep. No sheep would come near me.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — And all of a sudden they’re like right there.

Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah.

Jason Hildebrand — And one by one, they go over the other side of the cliff and down until one sheep and I are looking at each other. And I’m now it’s a wide shot. So you can’t see my expression really, but I’m just weeping. I’m like, Lord, like what on earth?

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. That’s amazing.

Jason Hildebrand — And it goes down the other side and it finishes the drone finishes going around me and the the battery dies again, and it has to go back.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And I’m like, what just happened? And it’s the final shot in the whole film.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Jason Hildebrand — And it’s this encapsulation of the moment of like the faithfulness of God and David and the whole thing. And it and it was like that kind of the whole the whole time where we’d, we all of a sudden we’d be like, we were gonna go here, but I think it’s raining. So we’re gonna go to this other location. And then that was the magic of like what happened in this, in the scenery.

Rich Birch — Interesting.

Jason Hildebrand — it it was It was pretty special.

Rich Birch — So maybe a dumb question. Why David? So why why this story?

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know there’s obviously a lot of narratives you could have you know produced.

Jason Hildebrand — Sure.

Rich Birch — Why start here? Obviously, this has been a long journey for you. Like you said, 30 years ago, you started with David.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah. And I thought it was culturally relevant 30 years ago. And I feel like it’s even more culturally relevant now.

Jason Hildebrand — I mean, one of the things that kind of haunts me in the, in, in a good way is I think I mentioned earlier that after he gets anointed as king, he’s mostly a disaster for the rest of his days. He makes horrible choices over and over and over again. And at the end of his days, he’s mostly screwed it up.

Jason Hildebrand — Like, he you know, he kind of heard the voice of God early on. And in the in the film, we’ve actually maybe it’s something we could also chat about is I’ve been really interested in language and and using language in a way that um steps outside of the current cultural baggage that some of our evangelical language has.

Jason Hildebrand — So we actually use the sound, the idea of sound as a as um as a you know a metaphor or or who the Holy Spirit is, which is kind of interesting.

Jason Hildebrand — But but in the midst of this mess, I think it’s quite extraordinary that God says that David was a man after his own heart. And he literally builds the foundation of his kingdom who who moves through Jesus out of this horribly flawed man, who at the end of the day was like, you know, a murderer. Some would say a rapist. Some would say like, there’s lots of there’s lots of stuff. There’s lots a lot of mess in his life.

Jason Hildebrand — And and and at the end of his days, God says, but he’s my child. He’s my boy. I love him. And and it’s it’s not because of what he’s done. It’s not his disaster. It’s his heart.

Jason Hildebrand — And I think that is an incredible incredibly hopeful thought for me. Because I don’t know about you, but I feel like mostly a disaster most days. Like I’m deeply loved. I know that. But I’m like, yeah, I kind of screwed up all the time. And I mean, no not to that extent.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — I’m not living in that… you know.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — But if he, but if God can do it for that guy who is just messed up, he can certainly do it for me. And I think people, I am watching as we do these screenings that people receive that in such an incredible way. They’re like, wait, me?

Jason Hildebrand — Like, wait, like I’m a…I’m loved. How really? I’m really loved.

Jason Hildebrand — There’s so much hunger for that. Our culture does not provide for that. Our culture provides anxiety and are you good enough?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — And are you know, do you have the right things?

Rich Birch — Yep. Jump higher.

Jason Hildebrand — Do you have the amount amount of money?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jason Hildebrand — Do you have the right clothes? Have you watched the right clips?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jason Hildebrand — All those kind of things. And unconditionally in that story at the end, you know, I think he says, ah when you rule in righteousness, when you rule in fear of God, you are like the light of morning, like the brightness after the rain that brings the grass from the earth. And I just love that.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jason Hildebrand — I love that.

Rich Birch — Well, and speaking of the language thing and, you know, the propensity of, you know, the the evangelical world in in its kind of relationship to art…

Jason Hildebrand — Sure.

Rich Birch — …a lot of it can get stuck in this kind of like either preachy or like shallow or, you know, like the the it’s the quintessential, you know, evangelical film from the 80s where like the two kids, you know, one kid says like, what is it about you in your life…

Jason Hildebrand — Oh, oh.

Rich Birch — …that’s so different. Tell me about that. You know what i mean?

Jason Hildebrand — Yes, yes.

Rich Birch — Like, and that which isn’t what you’re doing.

Jason Hildebrand — No.

Rich Birch — How do you how do we make something that is both genuinely artful and genuinely faithful at the same time? How are you? How do you hold that to mention? I realize there’s like, there’s no formula for that. You can’t get that in a spreadsheet. But how do you think about that?

Jason Hildebrand — First great story. And I think we’ve found you know in so in the scriptures, we have great story. Like, I mean, great human stories.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jason Hildebrand — But I, oh man, it’s it’s, a number of years ago, I was, I don’t know if I was feeling guilty or struggling with something like what you’re suggesting. Like, I think somebody had suggested to me, like, why aren’t you more evangelical and or evangelistic in your approach to your work?

Jason Hildebrand — And so I was like, oh do I have to be to like, to you know, and and I think there’s some people who are, a I have a friend who’s an evangelist and the guy, you know, gets on a plane and three people are saved before they even get off the plane. Like he’s that guy.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — And, I you know, you kind of like, should I be that guy?

Jason Hildebrand — And and I really, i I was in prayer one day and or I don’t even remember the exact moment of it. I just, I remember having this encounter with God where I felt like he spoke into my spirit stop trying to do my job, Jason. You’re not very good at it.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s so good.

Jason Hildebrand — Like, like, like your job is not to do my job.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah. Like I, I bring the transformation. All you have to do is show up and allow my presence to co-create through you.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — And I thought, oh, wait a minute. Like, I don’t have to have all the right words and do all… No, you carry me. You carry me into the room. You carry me when you get on a set.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jason Hildebrand — You carry me when you’re on a stage. Like Christ in me, the hope of glory is the thing that’s transformational. Not Jason saying the right words. And it took all the pressure off.

Jason Hildebrand — I thought, oh, wait, I’m built to be an artist. I can just be an artist. That’s enough. And that was like, and so whether you are, whatever you are, if you’re a woodworker, if you’re a teacher, if you’re like a doctor, whatever. I mean, I think it’s the same. We carry God into the room.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jason Hildebrand — And by our, you know, people we’ve been, we’ve been I don’t know if you have this, we’ve been talking through how do we communicate that on social media? And I, you know, I have this extraordinary new social media person. And and I said, if you want to know who I am, just watch my work.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — It’s there.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — That’s what it is And I think it’s the same with you too. you know If you want to know who you are, just listen to a bunch of podcasts by Rich.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jason Hildebrand — It’s like I know who Rich is right away.

Rich Birch — Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So good. Well, I want to talk about kind of dance around this a little bit. Tell me about the screenings that…

Jason Hildebrand — Sure.

Rich Birch — So how how is this actually, you know, how are you rolling this out? Where can I, you know, watch this, that kind of thing. Talk us through that part.

Jason Hildebrand — Well, we had a good long debate at the beginning of what to do with this and had a a lot of meetings with various ah distribution folks. And I had been feeling a big check in my spirit about throwing it up on streaming. Like, you know, there’s a lot of stuff on streaming. Some good, some not, but so much of it, even on on the major platforms, it just gets lost. You know, great films that get lost in the middle of nowhere.

Jason Hildebrand — And you know we come from a theater background. And so we’re really interested in getting people together in community. Like that’s a really big deal for us because I think that’s where the transformation happens – in-person.

Jason Hildebrand — And so we’ve kind of balked at putting it up on on any kind of streaming service because I just feel like it’s just like, ah, I can do that at the end of my night. But how can I gather people to have an encounter? And so I think inadvertently we did it. we’veve We’ve done, we’ve done a, you know, it’s, this is classic.

Jason Hildebrand — It’s just so how God works with us. He’s like, you know, we just try it. Or he gives a suggestion. We try We go, oh, oh, that’s why we were supposed to do it. Okay. It’s like the worst, the worst strategy ever is like, you know, but mostly…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jason Hildebrand — …well, I don’t know if the worst strategy, I think I’m learning to be like getting up in the morning and say, Lord, what do you actually want me to do today? But in the same way with this stuff. So we, we did it. We did a handful of, we did a handful of screenings so far and we’re about to do a Canadian tour and a European tour.

Jason Hildebrand — But what we have found, Rich, which was the which was the epiphany for us again, was we invite people to a theater space, so like a movie so movie theater space or or a really interesting cool art space, something that’s like, non-churchy. ah Although, you know, there’s a lot of great churches that have these kind of environments. But in Canada, we have like smaller, smaller church, you know, communities, but so places that have a great screen and great sound. Because we shot in Scotland, so the landscape is extraordinary. And, and the score by Mike Jansen, who’s this incredible Canadian composer is, is I think, like Academy Award winning. The score is like, wow.

Jason Hildebrand — So we got people together and then we got a local host, somebody that’s trusted in the community to just kind of invite people to a place to slow down. And a lot of times, both in my coaching and in in the work that we do, we incorporate breath, this idea of Ruach, the breath of God into our stuff. So invite people to slow down to breathe, to like turn off their busyness of their day, like just actually turn it off and to get present.

Jason Hildebrand — And, you know, maybe it’s a 10 minute or so thing, but it really, it really sets the tone. And we invite people to encounter the story, to find themselves in the story, like I mentioned earlier.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jason Hildebrand — And then people watch the film. It’s just over an hour. And then one of our team, usually me so far, sits and we unpack it in a Q&A after.

Rich Birch — So cool.

Jason Hildebrand — And the question and and the people that have come are both people of faith and people who are completely outside of faith.

Jason Hildebrand — And and the response. I really feel like my mandate is to create work for human beings, not for any particular stripe of person, because we all have the same need.

Rich Birch — Right. Yep.

Jason Hildebrand — We all need Jesus, but when we all need who God, we all need the Holy Spirit. But whether a person been walking with God for a long time or not walked at all, the need is still the same.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jason Hildebrand — To encounter God.

Jason Hildebrand — And so, man, I, so it’s wild. I had I invited my, I have a Mini car and my mechanic, this 60-ish year old Scottish mechanic.

Jason Hildebrand — And I’ve been talking with him as I’ve been going back and forth from Scotland about Scotland and whatever. And I invited him to the screening in Toronto. And he came with his girlfriend. And so I texted him the next day. I said, hey man, like, what did you think? He goes, what you and your team have built is so extraordinary. He said, thank you for allowing me to slow down and listen.

Rich Birch — So good.

Jason Hildebrand — He said, and then I was lost in the wind and the waves and I was overcome by everything. And I was like, what? Like, this is a no, this man, there’s no faith going on.

Rich Birch — Yes. Love it.

Jason Hildebrand — And interestingly, another, another person was there that I invited that actually makes, makes my glasses, made in Toronto, and incredible artist and like a entrepreneur, really great guy. And I said to him after, I said, wow, what did you think? And he goes, the thing that I noticed, Jason, was that people were hungry for what you brought.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Jason Hildebrand — And this is a person completely outside of a faith context. We have lots of really interesting discussions about faith, him and I.

Jason Hildebrand — But I was like, wow, okay. And then those who have a faith context, it’s like all a sudden God goes, all right, we’re here. We’re going to go deeper. And I had the questions that come out of those folks are like deep in the guts, like, oh, wow.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Jason Hildebrand — And it’s been extraordinary. I like… You know when you you do something that’s more that’s more than the sum of its parts? That’s how it feels for me.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jason Hildebrand — I’m like, this shouldn’t work, but it totally works.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like on a piece of paper that doesn’t make sense. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah, it doesn’t make sense.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Jason Hildebrand — So, yeah, that’s been that’s been it’s been wild. It’s been wild to watch it.

Rich Birch — That’s amazing. I love that. And when I heard this, was like, I think that is the best way to present this kind of content that you’re, you’ve chosen to say, no, we’re going to really do like, it’s like uncomfortable. You’re forcing, we’re going to have to get it into, you know, live room with real people.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You’re going to have to slow down. There’s a cost to that in just you know it’s it does not.

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah.

Rich Birch — It’s an ornery decision, which I love. I think it’s fantastic.

Jason Hildebrand — Oh, thank you.

Rich Birch — I think is like i think that’s i think that so so makes so much sense. I was thinking again about this. You know, we went and saw the Odyssey this summer. My wife and I went and saw that.

Jason Hildebrand — Oh, yeah.

Rich Birch — And, um you know, it’s one of those movies that like, yeah, sure, we could wait and, you know, whatever, get it on our streaming device. I’m sure they’ll release on streaming device. But there’s something about being in the room with other people. And it’s it’s not just the big screen.

Jason Hildebrand — Yes.

Rich Birch — There’s that kind of community experience of it. And I know this has a similar kind of feel to it. I love that.

Jason Hildebrand — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — So if I’m a church leader listening in, are you are you like partnering with churches to do this? Are there ways we could plug in with this? How does how does that work?

Jason Hildebrand — Sure. I mean, we’re doing a Canadian tour of movie theaters right now. So, you know, we’re we’re we’re in the process of building national and regional sponsorships across the country. But our long-term goal is really to, you know, we’ve got both a film. And then we’ve got this immersive gallery, which is eight stations based on themes from the film.

Jason Hildebrand — So like failure and loss and lament and family and the elements like, you know, the the physical elements outside wind and water and and such. And so, you know, that gets set up. you know, we in a for about a week and people can kind of wander through that at their leisure.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jason Hildebrand — And then there’s a small group resource. So our hope, I think long-term after we kind of do this screening tour is really to invite church communities to utilize the whole package in a way…

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jason Hildebrand —…to, you know, invite people to encounter the screening in a, in a big screen with great sound. And then for them to unpack the whole thing over the course of a week, people could wander through it in a, know, in a, in kind of a hall or a space, an art gallery, something you know connected. And then they could even take it to the next level by doing the small group resource.

Jason Hildebrand — And we’ve incorporated some of those Psalms micro-films that I had spoken about into the into the resource as well.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jason Hildebrand — So you’re you’re encountering scripture. And both in the in the gallery and in the small group resource, one of the things that I was big on incorporating was a lot a lot of the small group stuff is very kind of intellectual, sit on the couch and think about things. And same with the gallery type space.

Jason Hildebrand — And we wanted people, we you know, people learn in different ways. We wanted people to both have a contemplative experience, but also there’s doing, you have to do something. And so each station, there’s a doing. And in in the room when you’re doing the small group reserve, every week is you’re doing something.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Jason Hildebrand — You’re getting up and standing outside and putting your feet in the grass or like different things like that, which is which is kind of a sensory thing alongside of a visual thing.

Rich Birch — That’s so cool. I love that. Well, if people want to, well, first of all, this has been a fantastic conversation. I’m sure there’s a lot more we could cover.

Jason Hildebrand — Thanks Rich. Yeah. We could go for days, you and I.

Rich Birch — And I, yeah, so good. But if, where do we want to send people…

Jason Hildebrand — Sure.

Rich Birch — …to kind of learn more? I really do want people, again, I think you would be served well to just even watch the trailer today, friends. But if people want to explore this a little bit more, where do we want to send them online?

Jason Hildebrand — Yeah, absolutely. Well, theshepherdandthesound.com. You can check it out there.

Jason Hildebrand — All on our socials, @PresenceCreativeArts or mine, @JasonHildebrand. And our website is PresenceCreativeArts.com. They can you can kind of on that site, The Shepherd and The Sound or on Presence, you can see kind of like a breakdown of the three things we’re working on.

Jason Hildebrand — We’re also in the process of taking the original soundtrack by Mike Jansen and building an app that ends up being a contemplative space act or app built out of scripture and the music as well.

Rich Birch — That’s so cool.

Jason Hildebrand — But that’s that’s coming in the future.

Rich Birch — Love it. So great. Well, friends, again, that’s, we’ll put links to all that, theshepherdandthesoundfilm.com. Again, I want you to go over there, check that out. You’ve got a, it’s hard to describe art in audio format.

Jason Hildebrand — It’s so true.

Rich Birch — It’s like, how do we, how do we talk about this in a way that will give you the sense of what it is? But hopefully we’ve done a little bit for that. Jason, I appreciate you being here today. Just want to honor you for the good work you’re doing.

Jason Hildebrand — Thanks, Rich.

Rich Birch — And thanks for taking time to be with us today.

Jason Hildebrand — Appreciate you a lot. Thanks so much.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Sam Hamstra, Lead Pastor of Anthem Church, a fast-growing, multi-ethnic and multi-generational church serving Northwest Indiana and Chicagoland. Anthem became an independent church in March 2020—the same week the world shut down—and has since grown to multiple locations and thousands of people. In this conversation, Sam shares how clarity around mission, values, discipleship, and vision has helped Anthem develop a distinct ministry culture and sustain healthy growth.

Does your church know exactly who it is and how it does ministry? Are your leaders aligned around a shared playbook—or are you borrowing someone else’s model without adapting it to your context? Sam offers practical lessons on creating organizational clarity that shapes everything from calendars to leadership development.

Check out Anthem Church’s About page to see how their story, mission, values, and discipleship pathway fit together. You can also follow @SamHamstra and @ThisIsAnthemChurch on Instagram.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is a funny one because literally yesterday I was talking to a church in a coaching call. We were talking about this exact issue that we’re going to unpack today. They’re wrestling with these things. I know that this is going to help you. So you’ve tuned in for a great conversation today with Sam Hamstra. Super excited to have him. He and his wife, Taylor, they founded Anthem Church in March 2020 with a vision and heart to lead people to know Christ and make them know known.

Rich Birch — Over the past few years they have seen this mission become a reality, continues to grow. It’s a multi-ethnic, multi-generational family made up of thousands of people from all walks of life in Northwestern Indiana, Chicagoland, and beyond. It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country. So honored that you’re with us today, Sam. Welcome.

Sam Hamstra — Rich, so honored to be with you. This is a full circle moment for me. I’ve been following you for quite some time. So super honored to be on your on your show.

Rich Birch — Oh, come on. That’s I’m glad you’re here. We, we’ve got a lot to learn from you today. So March, 2020, it’s one of those dates that sticks in all of our brains. Cause like, we all know, what were you doing? March 15th, 2020. We all can say exactly what we’re, where we were. That’s a wild month to, to launch.

Rich Birch — It’s funny because I keep bumping into people who are telling a similar story. They’re like, we started during the pandemic, right at the beginning, right after that sort of thing. Give us a picture today and kind of from that moment all the way on to today, kind of bring the story, bring us, tell us a little bit about Anthem. Give us a flavor of the church.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so we currently today we’re headquartered in Hammond, Indiana, which when we say Indiana, different people have different thoughts. But we’re we’re actually butting up to Chicago.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sam Hamstra — Joking around right now, we’re going to be the future home of the Chicago Bears soon.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. But um yeah, so we’re headquartered in Hammond. Our second location is in Merrillville, Indiana, about 30 minutes from here. So currently um our family’s grown to about 2,500 people in English. And we also have a Spanish service as well. And God’s done a phenomenal work over a six-year time frame.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so we did launch in March of 2020. Our first Sunday was the same Sunday the world shut down.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Sam Hamstra — And so the third week of March was our first service on the internet.

Rich Birch — Dude, that’s amazing.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s incredible.

Sam Hamstra — Yes. So in God’s divine plan, kind of underneath our origin story, we we were actually a part of a church in Tinley Park, Illinois. We were a location of that church called Christian Life Center.

Sam Hamstra — And our senior pastor and I, Pastor Jerry McQuay, we had been having an ongoing conversation about him making us independent, which is a whole long story. And he decided to really lean into what he believed God was doing in our lives and in this region and made us independent in God’s divine plan. That started in March of 2020.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Sam Hamstra — And so we transitioned from being a multi part of a multi site church a location up to being independent in March. And yeah, we started with nothing. We didn’t have any cameras, didn’t have anything. I called our media guy and said, do you have anything at your house? And he brought it. Yeah.

Rich Birch — What gear you got in your basement? Yeah, that’s amazing.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah and he he brought a camera from his house. And yeah, that’s how we started. One continuous shot streaming online. And that was the start of Anthem Church in March of 2020.

Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, that’s amazing.

Sam Hamstra — So God’s done a great work.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. That’s incredible. That’s cool to hear and fun to see where it’s come, you know, since then. When you look back on that experience, you know, a lot of what you’re trying to define in those early days of a church, you’re trying to bring clarity to like, what is our approach? And part of what we do is you know, we there’s ah there’s, I think, some good copying and pasting. You’re like, hey, here’s the way they do it over here. Maybe we could try a little bit that. But then eventually you start kind of coming up with your own way. You kind of birth your own a approach, playbook, you might call it.

Rich Birch — When did you start to feel… ah the kind of transition from, hey, I just want to do it like in this case, either CLC or another church over there. And you started to realize, hey, there’s something unique here at Anthem. And we got to try to define some of that. Talk us through maybe from um a timeline point of view or from a revelation point of view, like, oh, this is kind of things I started to see. Talk us through what that looked like.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so about two years before we launched Anthem, God started to really kind of do a work in our heart just on unique DNA. And we were coming out of like heavily influenced by ARC, Church of the Highlands, and learned so much from there.

Sam Hamstra — And we’re seeing just how like clarity really was so important on where we’re going.

Sam Hamstra — And so we were coming in there and I just was really praying and seeking the Lord on, okay, this is great. But in our context here, there’s some some differences, there’s some nuances.

Sam Hamstra — This is, um we’re over here. what What does this look like here? And so really took the foundation of that and started looking at what does this look like? So when we started Anthem, it was with the thought of, we really want to lean into this unique blueprint of how God designed us and what God has called us to here.

Sam Hamstra — So it really started from the jump from from day one. And so but it was a couple years ahead of time to say, OK, this is great. Let’s let’s use this. Let’s we’ve been imitating. Let’s imitate now move to a little bit of innovation and what the Lord would have for us.

Rich Birch — Yeah, and there’s obviously there’s like an art and science to that, right? There’s like the, the yeah, insert whatever church, Church of the Highlands is fantastic. They’re doing a great thing, but you’re not Birmingham, Alabama. And you know and so there’s cultural differences, there’s community differences, there’s different resources and all that. That’s like the kind of science-y part of it.

Rich Birch — But then there’s the art part of it, which is a little bit more… like intuitives, it’s like vibes, that kind of thing. How did you discern, okay, what are those things that we should be thinking about that are different that you start, or maybe things you started to see, evidence you started to see like, oh, maybe this isn’t working, just importing. Was there evidence of that that you saw?

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so like, and it was like small things, you know, just on approach to Sunday service.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sam Hamstra — You know, like, hey, this is open door, we don’t do this on Sunday. And we had just been starting to see like pretty early on, we’re we’re reaching lost people through like a hard approach to the gospel.

Sam Hamstra — And it was just like, it wasn’t really seeker sensitive.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Sam Hamstra — It wasn’t, not saying they are, but just, it was just a little bit different in in our context where people were coming from. On the multi-ethnic side, it was just some approaches being super intentional with sounds, sights, all of that in in our context. And so, and even on the discipleship model, you know, groups, what kind of groups are we doing? How are we setting these up?

Sam Hamstra — And so it was definitely like these nuances in the different categories, I would say, of discipleship that we started to pay attention to. That that was really the start, I think, of innovating what we have now.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Why do you think so many of us just reach for someone else’s model rather than doing the longer, harder, deeper, like it’s more annoying work to try to define you know our own thing and and then ultimately to document it which we’re going to get to here. what What did you actually do to kind of try to codify that? But why do you think we avoid that as leaders?

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so I think on one end, what’s established, you can see that the model works. And so um there’s great success you’re seeing. I mean, it’s working everywhere. And so I think it’s safe. And so deep down, it’s like this is established. I see it work. And so I can kind of press play on this. And and I know to a level that this this works.

Sam Hamstra — And so it takes courage to do something that you haven’t seen before.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sam Hamstra — And deep, deep down, i think in our hearts, to me, that’s probably foundational thing. It’s like, man, I haven’t really seen this so his is going to require some courage, require some faith to press into the unknown.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Sam Hamstra — And so I do think that unknown word leads to some different decisions sometimes.

Rich Birch — Well, and your church is an interesting um example just because it’s grown so quickly. I, you know, even in the… the lead up to it, I was thinking about, you know, the word, the term church plant.

Rich Birch — Like, I don’t know when that term, you know, I was talking with a church that had been around for 30 years and they’re a big church. They’re like 20,000 people. And they, the lead pastor was like, well, we still think of ourselves as a church plant. And I’m like, yeah, I don’t at some point you stop being a church plant and just be, you start being a church.

Rich Birch — And I think actually this is one of those, one of those differentiations is when you start saying, okay, like we’re going to, we believe that kind of God’s called us to this unique thing. There’s something in there. You built something that I think you call the Anthem Way.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Walk us through what that is. How does it function? What is the Anthem Way? Help us understand that.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so this was actually birthed in an odd place. I was reading “The Advantage” by Patrick Lencioni,…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Sam Hamstra — …and he was talking about organizational health, and one of the keys is clarity.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Sam Hamstra — And I had I have kind of, I’m somewhat of a mutt in church in my upbringing.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Sam Hamstra — So I’ve been in a lot of different environments and seen to a lot of different things. And so it was really just kind of like looking like, how can we just be crystal clear on who we are, where we’re going and different things. And so I read that book and in that book, he actually laid out these questions that he was like kind of pointing to every successful organization needs to answer.

Sam Hamstra — And Iwas kind of seeing that with some of the stuff I’ve been hearing. And I’m like, and there’s a couple of missing pieces for me that he pointed to that I thought was so important in church world that I would actually point to that have been some of the biggest things I think that have been what I would call probably the secret sauce of what we’ve seen as far as clarity.

Sam Hamstra — Just the separation of something simple, but the difference between mission and vision, you know, why we exist compared to where we’re going. And so, yeah, I read that book and in there he laid out questions that you need to answer. I took that to our leadership team and we wrestled with these probably for about nine months.

Sam Hamstra — I’m just going back and forth on wording, how we say things. question by question in five different questions. We answered those and we gave it a name called the Anthem Way. And so that was the foundation, but I want to give credit where credit is due. It came through the book, The Advantage by Patrick Lencioni. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, no, that’s great. That’s fantastic. And I, you know, one of the things I love that you’ve hit on here is I’ve talked in other contexts that our vision, well, this is the problem with with vision, mission stuff is it’s like, first you have to have a conversation. How do you define vision? How do you define mission?

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But the big thing that we’re called to, the big idea, it comes from Jesus, right? We’re supposed to reach people and grow them up in in in relationship with him. All churches should have that as their core. That is at the core of what we do.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But getting clear on how we do that, you know, these other questions I’m assuming has helped give you a bit of a more of an edge, something that’s a little bit different. Do you want to rattle through the five questions…

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and maybe some high level, I know we can’t get into all the detail, but kind of high level how you’ve answered it. And then the follow-up I’m going ask you is, which are those couple that have given you what you think are the biggest distinctives around Anthem…

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Okay.

Rich Birch — …that kind of that that kind of, um you know, that provide that edge that’s a little different, you think.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. So five questions and I’ll rattle them off quick. But so first one is why do we exist? Mission – the mission question, um which you just said it, I 100% agree, you know, every church really is called to the same thing. Let’s make disciples who make disciples, the Great Commission is still our first priority.

Sam Hamstra — And so the way we say that is to lead people to know Christ and make them known. That was something we just prayed into language. We want to share language that people could really rally around.

Sam Hamstra — Next question is how do we behave? The values question. We wanted to boil down in our culture those not aspirational values like truly who we are. So we boil those down to three things and wrestle with the language a lot. We wanted them actionable, but we choose joy. We love people and we believe passion.

Sam Hamstra — And those all have disclaimers and really feed into our culture of what we call multi-everything. We love people from all walks of life, belong before you behave, and all that falls in there.

Sam Hamstra — What do we do? Patrick Lencioni was talking about how that’s really your your business definition, so to speak, not for external use, but internal. We answered that with, we provide defined discipleship pathway.

Sam Hamstra — It’s what we do day in and day out. It’s why we wake up in the morning. We’re not trying to reinvent the wheel. We’re not a country club. We’re not here to make money, we’re a church and and this is this is how we do, like what we do to ah to reach our why.

Sam Hamstra — How we live is the spiritual question for us. We wanna make disciples. So we wanted to be able to weigh spiritually what a disciple is. And so we looked at Acts 2:42, which we felt like was a really good, definition of these handles on a disciple. And so we have five kind of disclaimers on what we want to see in our people at our church. And we offer resources on those, but from daily devotion to prayer to we share our Jesus story. How do you testify? How do we share? How do we make Christ known?

Sam Hamstra — And then the last one is where are we going, which is the vision question. And we’ve we’re wrestling with the timing right now. We currently have a 10 year vision statement, which is just kind of pointers on like, this is where we believe God is taking us as a people.

Sam Hamstra — And so those five questions are give us the framework for what we call the Anthem Way. What I’ve seen, as basic as it sounds and in our context. And I don’t know if this resonates with anybody. One of the most frustrating meetings I had in church context was the yearly calendar meeting.

Rich Birch — Yeah, so true.

Sam Hamstra — And I just felt like everybody was coming every year with their own ideas. Some of them had to do with our mission, some didn’t. And these are just in past experiences. And so it just felt like everybody was trying to, and some, you know, just different reasons, good, bad, indifferent.

Sam Hamstra — And what what gave me great clarity was to look at our defined discipleship pathway and say, this is how we create our calendar. And um that’s been one thing that has simplified everything for us.

Sam Hamstra — So every year in the last six years, our our yearly calendar flow has been the same. And our people are starting to understand it. The next steps fall within it when we even, you know, baptisms, we’re doing it this time. And So that’s been one thing is basically that sounds like what do we do?

Rich Birch — No, no, that’s good. I like it.

Sam Hamstra — I found a lot of confusion on that in the past, on like, how do we do groups? How do we have services? To define everything within that in the discipleship pathway, to me has been life-giving, not only for us as a team, but as as our church as well.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Pull that apart a little bit more. I think, because I think this is where we fall down on this type of work is, you know, and, and I know it’s none of the people that are listening in, but there are churches that like, they do a retreat and we’re like, we’re going away. We’re going we’re reading Lencioni. We’re going to define the five questions. We even make a snappy poster and we put it up on the wall. And then we go back to business as usual. It’s the same thing we’ve always done. But you’ve been able to make the connection there, particularly with the calendar.

Rich Birch — Maybe talk us through, give us some examples of how this work is shaping, how you’re actually defining, you know, how you operate as a church.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so one example I would say is prayer. I had somebody call me and I like to think our prayer culture is strong. And they said, how did you get your prayer culture strong? And I said, well, this is really mind blowing. We have a weekly prayer meeting.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Sam Hamstra — And so because of that, and and still as the lead pastor still today, I take responsibility for leading that because I believe it’s it’s a high value for the church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sam Hamstra — So it’s on the calendar. We you know And we’re not adding to it. It’s just 6 p.m. to 7 every Thursday. And we support it, which I think is the secondary layer behind that because it’s important. Now we have staff support. We have worship team support. We’re, we’re like staying very focused, on a few things rather than getting broad and going to a retreat and saying, this is a silver bullet. I don’t think there, I think the whole thing is a silver bullet, the whole pathway.

Rich Birch — Right. Sure.

Sam Hamstra — And so we always say, you know, I took this from somebody, but, you know, we want to be Ruth’s Chris, not Ponderosa. We want a one page menu and we really want to just do that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sam Hamstra — And it might even get boring. And we we’re trying to learn that boring is good.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Boring stuff grows churches. I love it.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — One of those five is sharing Jesus. Every disciple has one mission, to make Christ known. We don’t keep the gospel to ourselves. We share it through our words, our actions, our lives, wherever we go. We carry the hope of Jesus to a world that needs him.

Rich Birch — Unpack some ways that that value drives behavior at the church, that actually drives calendaring and and you know what you’re talking about, that sort of thing.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so deep, you know, we always want to empower everybody to be inviters and not just share. I think the key word in that is share your Jesus story. You know, we have to be people who understand how to share a testimony outside the four walls with it, you know, with a pretty quick invite to be like, hey, come be part of this community if you don’t have a community.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sam Hamstra — And so that is really through calendaring. We that’s really probably intrinsically baked into what we’re doing. So anytime I bring a guest to church, I’m saying it from the pulpit. And this is my friend. They’re here. I invited celebrating those through baptisms.

Sam Hamstra — We let people testify of so you’re hearing stories of that. And then really resourcing people to make Christ known by sharing their story, teaching them how to do that.

Sam Hamstra — So In the context of the calendar, um you know I took this from your playbook, sir, so thank you. We wanted to create four big events in our flywheel…

Rich Birch — Yep. Love it.

Sam Hamstra — …that are big invite events, that these are the moments where you need to bring 10 people.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sam Hamstra — We have found in our calendar since day one that we are seeing people respond to that and our church grows after every single time we do a big event.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Sam Hamstra — And so we’re we’re doing four quarterly things.

Rich Birch — Are those are those four the same every year? Are they, are they, yeah.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, yes.

Rich Birch — So what are they? What are those four? If you don’t want me asking.

Sam Hamstra — So, you know, Easter, of course…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sam Hamstra — …summer kickoff was something we just created…

Rich Birch — Yeah, great.

Sam Hamstra — …to start the first Sunday of June. We rented a football field and we just say, bring everybody. We don’t…

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Sam Hamstra — …in our culture here, this is one thing, like, we’re like, we don’t shrink in the summer. This is a great time to grow.

Rich Birch — Keep going forward. Yep. Love it.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. And then we created something years ago called Homecoming, just, you know, it was really show up Sunday, invite day.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep.

Sam Hamstra — And then Christmas.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Sam Hamstra — So those are our four homecomings in November on the calendar. It just kind of flows quarterly for us that way.

Rich Birch — That’s great. I love it. Well, I love what we’ve seen in fastest growing church in the country, friends that are listening in, is, you know, lots of churches will get, they have two big days, Christmas and Easter. But what we see is the behavior that you’re doing, which is you kind of end up having to make up a couple other days where you’re kind of injecting energy. We’re recording this in the summertime. You know, lots of churches have pulled a page out of Life Church’s book around At the Movies. And they, at the movies is one of their biggest attended days of the year on the the front end of that.

Rich Birch — It’s just made up. There’s no reason for you to come the first week of August…

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, absolutely.

Rich Birch — …but they’ve decided, hey, we’re going to do that. That’s great. So we’re going to link to your about page where a lot of this is on that that page.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — On the how our core values, how we behave: We love people. We bleed passion. We choose joy. There’s some unique stuff in there. So talk me through. We love people, I think could be universally true of lots of churches…

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …but I’m not sure that every church would say we bleed passion. We choose joy. Talk me through those as how those are kind of a unique thing that is helping you define what it means to be Anthem.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so you know on the love people thing, is you do hear that a lot. And I found there’s a difference between hearing it than living it out. And in religious environments sometimes, you know, I think we all pray we wanna reach the lost until you reach the lost.

Rich Birch — True.

Sam Hamstra — And our first service, our first Easter Sunday here, we only had one door into our auditorium. And I still remember we had the whole back of the auditorium smelled like weed.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Okay. Love it.

Sam Hamstra — And it was like this tense moment, you know, like of like, okay, this is what we pray for.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Sam Hamstra — And kind of diving deep into that. So we really own that language within that of we belong before we behave. And so we’re, you know, you can come from all walks of life and we believe Jesus died for all people. So we love all people.

Sam Hamstra — And then the we choose joy…

Rich Birch — I love that. Before we move on, the thing I love about that…

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …that you’re calling out, that I do think is a nuance that we miss in too many churches, which is oftentimes we say we want to reach people. But what that comes with is messy pastoral care, hard conversations, stuff that doesn’t make sense, and long nights. Like, it’s just hard.

Rich Birch — And, um you know, if you’re, it’s easy to reach Christians from the other church across town. It’s hard to reach people who don’t normally journey in this stuff.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Birch — And I love I love that story, even of your opening weekend with the the smell of weed in the back of the room.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I love it.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Definitely messy.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Yes, yes, love it.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. You know, the “We choose joy” has just been, um i think one of the greatest testimonies we had was from somebody that just, it was their first time guest. So like, man, everybody feels like they’re the same here. Everybody’s so happy. And we just wanted to build in just this, we believe that, you know, joy should be a badge that every believer wears. It’s just been, you know, you go into the different environments and some people just, it seems like a chore to be alive.

Sam Hamstra — And so we just wanted to drive in. This is a privilege to be part of what God is doing in the earth in this hour, even if it doesn’t look perfect.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Sam Hamstra — And then with “We bleed passion”, um that’s really our way to say here, you know, if you’re looking for a place that’s content with status quo, you’re probably not going to like it here. We’re always going to be changing. We’re always going to be moving. We’re always going to be shifting. We always want to go with where the Lord is leading. And so we’re a sending church. Don’t get comfortable. There’s always going to be more services. There’s always going to be new churches.

Sam Hamstra — So we tried to to really get that in the DNA from the front side.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love it.

Rich Birch — I love that “we choose joy”. When I was at Liquid Church, are one of our three in this in this coupling was “Church is fun”. And you know the way we would talk about that is we would say, you know we we we say good news or we say gospel. We’re like, we should be gospel people or we should be good news people.

Rich Birch — But what that actually means, how that actually should work itself out in our culture is when people interact with us, those people are a lot of fun to be around.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Because they’re redeemed people who have figured out, man, we’re following a God who loves us dearly. So what that should actually like, I love the way you’ve said it, we choose joy. Joy should be the natural outcome of our churches…

Sam Hamstra — Yes.

Rich Birch — …which is, again, that should not be rocket science, but it’s amazing how much that is a cultural difference or can be a huge cultural difference in many churches.

Sam Hamstra — Yes. 100%. Yep.

Rich Birch — That’s cool. So um you’ve been using this really throughout your how you develop leaders, how you onboard people, how you, you know, how do you come back to this time and time again? What are you using? How are you using these tools in your leadership development, in your raising up of volunteers, that sort of thing?

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so foundationally, I got to give credit where credit is due once again on this. I heard University of Kentucky’s baseball coach say this about culture, and it was like the best thing I’ve ever heard. He totally transformed his program, and he said it was culture at at the root of it. He said culture is every day. Culture is what you accept, and culture is what you reinforce.

Rich Birch — It’s good.

Sam Hamstra — And so we try to keep that in front of us as much as we can. It’s you know not something we just say we want to lead the way every day. So within these three, we actually just came out with 10 leadership values that all fit within those three…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool.

Sam Hamstra — …that give a little more language to our leadership, like, you know, we love people, so we park in back. And so really speaking to the culture of, you know, we put other people first, we serve.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Sam Hamstra — And so, you know, we try to outdo each other. You know, I park about a half mile away from church on Sundays. We don’t we don’t do pastor parking, you know, or anything like that. umAnd so just, it’s every day.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Sam Hamstra — We do a value at every single one of our pre-service huddles on Sunday. So we’re taking those three values every Sunday, one, here’s what we’re doing.

Sam Hamstra — And then Leadership Pipeline, we implemented this two years ago and we’re teaching our Anthem way across the board to a new set of leaders three times a year. And so we really zone in on culture a lot. We’ve just realized people coming from a lot of different places and what makes our culture, our culture are these distinctives. And so we’re teaching those and then really trying to walk them out. And the best testimony we’ve been hearing is people say, yeah, we see that in the leadership of the church. So that’s been really cool to hear.

Rich Birch — That’s really cool. I love it. And friends, this just reminds me of the like such a foundational thing we’ve all got to get right and work on and then repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.

Rich Birch — We’ve got to keep on top of this language and and just come back to it time and time again. So you’re multi-site, you’re you’re going to launch more campuses down the road.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — How does this tie into that conversation around, you know, there can be in you know, some multi-site churches, there’s like this tension of uniformity, you know, versus autonomy. And like, how how does that how does how does your thinking work out with the Anthem Way in multiple locations?

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. So I want to preface this with I’m new, so I am figuring this out in real time.

Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam Hamstra — I’m coming from from being a campus pastor to now being in the position I’m in. We’re two years into our first ah plant location campus. So and we’ve seen it be successful.

Sam Hamstra — But what we’ve agreed on is we are going to be uniform in the Anthem Way. So we’re choosing uniformity and everything that falls within that box of the Anthem Way. Um, and so that has been like the running lanes for us to define what we’re doing, how we’re doing it, the way we talk, the way we move, our style of church, um, and all of that. So that’s been, you know, we’ve been really struggling with, with, with what you just said, that uniformity versus unity versus, you know, autonomy.

Sam Hamstra — And so, the Anthem Way is to become our framework on how we’re starting locations. And we feel like as long as everybody’s in sync with all, and it and it entails a lot, right? I mean, how we do church, our approach to a lot of things.

Sam Hamstra — And so that’s been that’s been our overarching theme is we want to be uniform in this.

Rich Birch — yeah that’s good.

Sam Hamstra — And so that’s what we’ve been trying to make sure it’s documented, ready to go.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s an interesting, that’s like a, we could have a whole other half an hour just on on on that issue.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But one of the things we have seen over the long arc of the multi-site movement is churches that are choosing clarity and um and more, yeah, an understanding of, in your case, what is Anthem and how do we do what we do, those churches are the churches that, from my perspective, and not just statistically, are actually benefiting more from the multi-site movement.

Rich Birch — The churches where they’re like, hey, let’s spend a lot of time. It can actually be the worst model because it’s like, we have a lot of people thinking about all the different ways you could potentially do church. As opposed to saying, no, no, like this is the way we’re not, we’re not saying this is the best way. We’re just saying it’s our way. We’re not saying that this is the only way to do it.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — We’re just saying this is the way we do it. And, um and we’re okay with that. We’re settled on on that as an issue.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. That’s good. That’s good.

Rich Birch — That’s interesting. Is there anything that changed or that has changed as you, I realize you’ve influenced ben to this from the beginning, but like, has there been anything that has kind of changed as you got clearer on the Anthem Way over the over the years? You know, something you cut or improved or, you know, is there anything that jumps to mind on that front?

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, we’re would I might use the word refined rather than changed.

Rich Birch — Sure. Yep, that’s good.

Sam Hamstra — I was just talking to our discipleship director this morning just on, you know, is there is there a small group model? So like our three kind of handles in our discipleship pathway are know Christ, grow in Christ, and and make Christ known.

Sam Hamstra — And, you know, our small group model isn’t working. We added what we call the Mosaic School of Ministry, which is is another thing in Grow. And we’ve actually seen way more interest and success in that. And so, you know, we have a way higher percentage right now going through what we call a School of Ministry, which is classes and and discipleship then we’re getting in small groups.

Sam Hamstra — And so we’ve been just kind of wrestling with that a little bit. Like, is that culture, is it good, is it bad? And so I think those those refining moments have have really changed. We started off, though, I feel soft saying this, but it worked in our context. But we would start every year with 21 days of prayer and fasting in the beginning. And do 21 days again in the fall.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Sam Hamstra — We’ve actually gone down to seven days to start the year. There’s seven days in the fall. We just feel like we’re seeing actually better results with more people getting involved just with those minor tweaks, just to say this…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Sam Hamstra — …his is we’re we’re seeing bigger impact there.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Sam Hamstra — But so I think those refining things have been really good.

Rich Birch — Has there been any of that refining that has come not from you, but from a member of your team? Like, has anyone called you out or called the church out on like, hey, like on prayer or on any of these where, you know, like when that’s happened in my life, I kind of like that.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I’m like, oh, well, that’s a pleasant thing that just happened there, even though it feels weird to be the person being called out.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Have you had any experiences like that?

Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Yes. I’m laughing because, yeah, I’ve had quite a few. I could point to the one with prayer fasting.

Rich Birch — Yes.

So somebody on our team was like, hey, pastor, you know that there’s really no a place in the Bible where there’s a three week corporate fast.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah like where the whole church is coming together for three weeks and I’m like well I got a challenge, I’m gonna look. And I’m like sure enough you know, I’m maybe somebody could find it, but it was like these times and seasons where people come together for specific things of like, oh man you’re right.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, love it.

Sam Hamstra — So and so that was like one of those um yeah it’s it’s definitely happened quite quite a bit and so which I love that too and so it’s been such a blessing of solid team that feels free to speak when when they need to.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Well, this has been a good conversation, just as we’re kind of coming to land. If you think about a church out there that feels like okay they’ve listened to this and they’re like okay, we maybe they’ve opened up your website. And they’re like, hey, we’re not as clear on this that as we could be, we need to get much clearer on that.

Rich Birch — What’s kind of one first step that you would encourage people to take? What would be kind of the best first step towards getting clarity on this front?

Sam Hamstra — Write the vision, make it plain so that he that reads it may run.

Rich Birch — Dude, I love it. And with that, we end the episode. That’s fantastic. No, that’s great. Unpack that a little bit.

Sam Hamstra — Um, you know, I for so much of my life, I was always looking to be so unique and so different.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sam Hamstra — And I felt like I just needed the next best thing. And it was wasn’t until I just locked into this is what the Lord has for us. And it might sound like somebody else it might look and that’s OK, but this going to be very unique to us. And this is what we’re doing. And just to be very clear on that and then just this is for me, but I get bored so easily. And to just, just not get bored and just keep doing the same thing in the same direction day after day.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sam Hamstra — And in that that flywheel, to use your words, it does work. And just to see that go and to to get very clear and and simple and and let people know where you’re going and just keep saying the same thing over and over is so life-giving.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. So good.

Rich Birch — Well, I really appreciate you being here today. If we want to send people anywhere online to track with you or to track with the church, where do we want to send them?

Sam Hamstra — So first name, last name would be all my personal stuff. So @samhamstra, last name H-A-M-S-T-R-A.

Sam Hamstra — And all church stuff is weareanthemchurch.com. And then weareanthemchurch on social as well.

Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Appreciate that, Sam. Thanks so much for being here. Honored that you take some time to be with us today.

Sam Hamstra — Yeah, thanks so much, Rich, my honor.

Most churches don’t start thinking about leadership development until a key person resigns. By then, the only real option is to post the role and hope someone qualified applies. In this special compilation episode, we’ve pulled together four conversations with leaders who have built the habit of developing people long before the seat opens up. The churches growing fastest right now are rarely the ones with the best job postings. They’re the ones who already know who’s next.

Don’t miss the four critical lessons every church should consider as they head into fall hiring and budget planning. From the leadership model that quietly keeps benches empty to a mindset shift about where leaders actually come from to a challenge you could give your team on Monday to the structure that produces people you can genuinely put on payroll, each conversation offers a practical step forward.

Tim Foot explains what he calls hero-driven leadership: the habit of relying too heavily on standout individuals to carry the mission. It produces short-term results, but it creates burnout, unrealistic hiring expectations, and fragile systems. What makes it so hard to escape is that it feels good. It feels productive to be the person who solves the problems and holds the answers. Foot also names the “shiny object trap,” where churches chase talent from larger organizations only to discover that the leader arrives with a playbook that doesn’t fit and no systems to support them.

Key Takeaway // Hero dependence is a staffing strategy, whether or not anyone chose it on purpose. Healthy teams are built when leaders get comfortable saying they don’t know what to do next, because that’s what opens the room for collaboration.

Listen to the Full Episode // Hero Dependence Is a Terrible Growth Strategy with Tim Foot (June 18, 2026)

Spence Shelton draws a parallel most church leaders have never made. We all agree that growing a church by reaching lost people beats growing it by transfer from other churches. Then, when it comes to leaders, we reverse the logic and look for someone who’s already trained elsewhere. Shelton makes the case for the shoulder tap: intentionally asking someone whether God might be calling them into ministry. At Mercy Church, both executive pastors and two of three campus pastors came out of the marketplace, from banking, plant management, and physical therapy. None of them would have applied. Somebody had to ask.

Key Takeaway // Many future ministry leaders never consider vocational ministry because no one ever raised the possibility with them. Developing from within takes longer than hiring from outside, and it produces leaders shaped by your church’s culture rather than someone else’s.

Listen to the Full Episode // Stop Plucking Talent, Start Developing It with Spence Shelton (August 6, 2026)

Chris Vaught faced the constraint every growing church knows well. Connection Point was growing fast, but budget always arrives last, and southeastern Missouri isn’t a place people relocate to for a ministry position. So the church started looking at its own congregation and treating volunteers as unpaid staff with real roles and responsibilities. The starting point was a single challenge to every staff member: go find your Timothy. One person you invest in deeply enough that if you were out on a Sunday, the ministry would still run.

Key Takeaway // A leadership pipeline doesn’t have to begin with a budget line. It can begin with one question asked of every staff member about who could carry their ministry if they weren’t there next weekend.

Listen to the Full Episode // From 300 to 2,500: Building a Leadership Pipeline That Fuels Growth with Chris Vaught (September 25, 2025)

Dave Miller draws a distinction that reframes what most churches call leadership development. Churches are excellent at training: the sermon, the class, the book of the month, the small group discussion. All of it is content delivery, and content has never been more available. Development is something else. Miller’s team identifies seven ingredients: training, spiritual formation, soft skills, ownership, mental wellness, and developmental conversations. He also challenges leaders on where accountability sits. When a sports team wins, we talk about the players. When it loses, we replace the manager. Church leaders should apply the same standard to the people they’re developing.

Key Takeaway // If content were the key ingredient, leadership development would already be solved. What emerging leaders need is proximity, ownership, and someone willing to slow down and have the conversation.

Listen to the Full Episode // Who’s the Next You? Building a Gen Z Residency Pipeline with Dave Miller (September 11, 2025)

These four conversations form a ladder, and you don’t have to start at the top. Most churches never start at all because they assume the only real option is a residency program they can’t yet afford. Tim named the model keeping your bench empty. Spence gave the mindset shift and the shoulder tap. Chris gave the first move that costs nothing. Dave gave the structure that produces people you can hire. As you head into this fall, the question worth bringing to your next staff meeting is simple: who on our team has never been tapped on the shoulder, and what would it take to have that conversation this month?

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint

As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.

TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow.

TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week.

If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo.

Rich Birch — At the beginning of 2026, we surveyed executive pastors like you and nearly one in four named that staff health and structure, how we get our teams to work together was your top fear going into 2026. You know and I know it, you probably have an open role at your church that you’re trying to fill, or you’re maybe about to have an open role. When a key person leaves your team and your instinct is just to post it, what can we do?

Rich Birch — Finding, releasing, equipping leadership is critically important. Welcome to the last compilation episode of summer 2026 here on the unSeminary podcast. Super excited about today’s conversation, all about developing leaders within our organizations.

Rich Birch — I know that in many churches, we think of this as a season where new staff are hiring or we’re hiring them into new roles. We’re working on budget planning for next year. There’s all the fall ramp up.

Rich Birch — All four of these conversations are going to be helpful for you. The first one, we’ve got Tim Foot. He is the CEO of Slingshot, has nearly 30 years in ministry leadership, and his team has literally worked with thousands of churches on staffing.

Rich Birch — Listen to this kickoff to today’s conversation, really setting up the tension that we find ourselves in. He names the leadership model that most of us have absorbed without anyone talking about it out loud, and it could be derailing your church and my church. Let’s listen in to what Tim has to say about developing leaders.

[Clip 1 Begins]

Tim Foot — Yeah, I mean, the model we see is hero-driven leadership. It’s when we rely too much on individuals to actually carry the mission. And I think the cracks have happened.

Tim Foot — I mean, we’ve seen it, Rich. You and I are similar ages. I think the cracks are happening generationally.

Tim Foot — The builders and boomers were wired differently for a different time and culture. And us Gen Xers, we can code switch. I mean, we see that happening all the time.

Tim Foot — And as we stepped into leadership, the cracks started to appear. I mean, we see it every week, another leader burning out, doing stupid things because of too much pressure. Then Millennials and Gen Z are now leading in a new way that we need to embrace.

Tim Foot — And so I think we’re seeing those cracks around that hero dependence, and we’re starting to see the need more than ever to have a team awareness, a holistic approach, or we’re just going to have leaders continue to burn out. And we see it around unrealistic hiring expectations, lack of support for great leaders when they’re hired, a lack of development. Hero dependence is a terrible staffing and growth strategy and becomes a massive trap when it comes to a number of the key focus areas or patterns we’ve seen that healthy teams focus on a move mission forward.

Rich Birch — Yeah, see, this is the thing when you I heard you say that once and it literally I sat up and I was like, oh, man, I’ve seen that in my own, you know, my own hiring. I’ve seen that in the way I’ve talked with, you know, I see the leaders around me. You see these people who they’ve kind of built the entire ministry around themselves and they’ve built it’s like it doesn’t work if they don’t. It’s like they’re such a unique individual. They have to lift it all.
Rich Birch — Like, why do we keep coming back to that? Why? Even if we know like intellectually in our heads, yeah, that’s not a good idea.

Rich Birch — But what makes that model so sticky? It feels like we just keep coming back to this same thing time. In fact, we actually reward it. We’ll be like, wow, isn’t that great? This person’s amazing. And we just kind of keep moving on. Why is that?

Tim Foot — It’s the shiny object trap. I mean, the shiny object, aka the talented leader that we think is going to catapult the ministry. Often we see it in hiring conversations when a particular organization wants to go after somebody that’s been in a much bigger organization than them.

Tim Foot — And often that person, if they can attract them, will come in with a playbook that isn’t uniquely suited to the organization they’re stepping into. Or there aren’t systems to support that new leader and the growth that’s going to happen. And burnout happens at every level.

Tim Foot — But we both know, Rich, busy work makes us feel productive. But is it the right work? And we know that we can be ourselves the shiny object. It feels good to be the hero. It feels good to be the one that’s solving problems. It feels good to be the one that has all the answers.

Tim Foot — And I think that’s one of the biggest threats in healthy leadership today, is feeling like you have to have all the answers. Because I think one of the most powerful statements from healthy leaders and healthy teams is, Hey, we don’t know what to do next. Because it actually opens up the room for new thought. It opens up the room for collaboration. And it opens up the room for teamwork.

Tim Foot — But it’s easier to move quick. It’s easier to move quick and be surrounded by people who agree and play it safe. And then down the road, we realize that we weren’t growing in every sense of that word. And the mission was stalled out.

Tim Foot — We know we often have to slow down, re-strategize, look at who’s around the table, work out how we work together to move faster in the long term. We have to be vulnerable to make a team work. And sometimes it requires us to actually help others win than focus on heroes.

Tim Foot — I mean, you think about a winning sports team. It’s not about just one person out there doing all the work. We’ve got to work together as a team.

Tim Foot — You know, it’s how do we work together and have less dependence on that shiny object, those standout leaders or those heroes.

[Clip 1 Ends]

Rich Birch — Oh, so good. You know, Tim named something there. Man, it feels good to be the person with all the answers.

Rich Birch — Can I have a little confessional time with you, friends? Earlier parts of my ministry career, I have really struggled with that. I wanted to be the person who had all the answers, but it’s a trap. And most of us find ourselves in it.

Rich Birch — We’ve got to move beyond hero dependence, either wanting to be the hero or to find heroes. It’s not a character flaw. It’s a system that ultimately rewards the wrong thing.

Rich Birch — So the question that I have is what is the alternative? Where do we go if we’re not just trying to hire the next shiny object?

Rich Birch — The thing that will, the person that will, you know, plug in like a thing, where do leaders actually come from? I love this conversation coming up with Spence Shelton as the lead pastor of Mercy Church in Charlotte, planted in 2015, now three campuses online, plus launching a family of churches. I want you to listen for a few things.

Rich Birch — First of all, Spence parallels, makes a parallel that I really have not heard many people say between how we think about reaching people who are far from God and how we think about finding leaders and how these two are connected. Listen carefully for the shoulder tap that he talks about. You know, oftentimes one of the things I find most revealing about podcast interviews is people say things just in the sides that really do under that, that give you a sense of what’s actually going on under the hood and pay attention to where his executive pastor campus pastors come from.

Rich Birch — Let’s listen in to what Spence Shelton has to say.

[Clip 2 Begins]

Spence Shelton — I think that mentality starts all the way down to the idea of reaching people that don’t know Christ versus just sheep swapping from one church to the other church, right? So you can grow your church by transfer growth, which I actually am one who, hey man, if somebody’s on the sideline in one church and then they plug into your church, I’m all for it. And if the same thing happens with Mercy, all for it.

Spence Shelton — But our aim, what we all know as pastors and ministry leaders is our aim is, man, let’s reach lost people and then disciple them, right? The same thing I think should be true with leadership development. For some reason, when it comes then to developing leaders, we tend to go a different direction and think, well, let’s just go find where some leaders are and get them to plug in.

Spence Shelton — It’s like, we don’t do that even with discipleship. Why are we switching our mindset? And so I want to just kind of, I have to, I was convicted and wanted to call our church and I would call others to the same mindset that you have with discipleship.

Spence Shelton — Let that carry over into your leadership and your leadership development as well. And I think that’s how we’re going to grow, just as how we’re going to grow the kingdom by reaching lost people, how we’re going to grow the leaders in the kingdom, the number of leaders we have, it’s going to be developing them in our church. And I just, I don’t know that we’re even thinking that way and asking the question, is the guy who’s a 27-year-old physical therapist in my church, has anybody ever bothered to tap him on the shoulder and ask, Hey man, could God be calling you into ministry because I watch you?

Spence Shelton — And no, we’re not doing the shoulder tap, man. And so, um, our right now, I just, I love it. I’m just a little bit of the story of our church. Our exec, both of our executive pastors and two of our three campus pastors were all in the marketplace.

Spence Shelton — One of our executive pastors was in banking. Another was a plant manager. We have two campus pastors who were both, I use physical therapists cause they’re both former physical therapists. And you know, we’re sitting there having these conversations. You know, what makes a great pastor is someone who has sat with person after person, told them, Hey, you should do this to feel better.

Spence Shelton — And then they come back to you later and say, Hey, I don’t feel better. And you say, did you do the thing I told you to do? And they say, no. And you say, well, you should have done that.

Spence Shelton — And a patient long suffering physical therapist turns out to be a great pastor, but somebody has got to tap him on the shoulder and say, Hey man, I think God might be calling you into this.

Spence Shelton — And so my, my encouragement to anybody who’s in ministry right now, kind of in that leadership development role. And you’re like, I don’t know, we’re going to have to go outside to find some talent. I promise it’s going to take longer the way I’m talking about. But if you will seek the Lord, ask the Lord, and then start shoulder tapping and giving some opportunities for guys to lead for men and women to lead there in your ministry and whatever the leadership roles might be. I think there might be more people in there than you realize, because I believe that God provides for the church that he’s growing, that he’s called you to lead. And so I think that’s true with leaders as well.

[Clip 2 Ends]

Rich Birch — Hey, friends, 9 out of 10 campus pastors, they do come from within. So if you are launching new locations in the future, man, we got to start developing campus pastors today.

Rich Birch — But I know some of you are saying, listen, listen, listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That all sounds good. Shoulder tapping. Great, great, great.

Rich Birch — But how, how do I do it? How do I train my team to do it? How do we motivate, stay focused on this?

Rich Birch — The gap that my, what I have found, it’s not desire. It’s not even understand that people don’t understand that that’s how we do it. It’s not a resistance to those things. It’s none of that. It’s just that nobody owns it because you see development is everyone’s job, which means that it’s nobody’s job.

Rich Birch — It’s easy for this to fall through the cracks. Aren’t we all supposed to be developing leaders? So if we’re all developing leaders, my experience has been that means that really none of us are or we’re not doing it in a systematic way.

Rich Birch — Super excited to have Chris Vaught with us. He is the lead pastor of Connection Point Church in Missouri. Listen, it grew from 300 people in 2011 to 2,500 today across multiple campuses.

Rich Birch — And he outlines one challenge that Chris gave every staff member. And I really want you to listen carefully for this, because to be honest, this is pure unSeminary magic. This is like what I love about our podcast.

Rich Birch — You could take this out of this interview today and put it into your next team meeting on Monday. Apply it to your church. Let’s listen in for what Chris wants to say to you about how we train people to shoulder tap, find leaders and release them.

[Clip 3 Begins]

Chris Vaught — You can only hire out so much, right? Because even though our church has grown fast, budget always comes up last. But you have to look at other avenues other than just, oh, I’ll hire another position.

Chris Vaught — So we started looking at congregation. We began to develop our own leadership pathway or pipeline to develop not only volunteers, but our future staff. We knew we grew really fast. We need to hire from within, but we still couldn’t hire every position.

Chris Vaught — So we started looking at our volunteers as almost as non-paid staff positions. And so we have an atmosphere of expectation of roles and responsibilities and also the value of what they’re doing.

Chris Vaught — That the kingdom is dependent upon all of us using our gifts and talents. And so we started this pathway. And at first it was simply a challenge to every staff member. You go find your Timothy. You go find one other person that you can invest yourself into, a volunteer.

Chris Vaught — So that if on Saturday night, and here was kind of the criteria for us: if on Saturday night, something were to happen and you catch COVID. Okay. We’re at that time. Could this ministry run the next day because of the person you have personally equipped…

Rich Birch — I love that clarity.

Chris Vaught — …to hold the ministry.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.

Rich Birch — We began to put those pieces together. That’s right. You go ahead. I cut you off there.

Chris Vaught — No, no. I was just saying that’s what we began. We began this pipeline and that was really the basic level at first. Every staff member finding that one Timothy, if you will, if you want to use that terminology, that could run that ministry if you were out.

[Clip 3 Ends]

Rich Birch — See what I told you? The Saturday night test is literally the cheapest leadership development tool in this entire episode. If you do nothing else out of today’s episode, do that.

Rich Birch — But I know, listen, there can be a gap on that, a ceiling. Finding your Timothy fills gaps, but it does not produce people necessarily kind of week-in, week-out that you could put on print a payroll. You need to also do some development. You need to have some intentional leadership development.

Rich Birch — Most churches, again, think that they’re developing leaders, but they’re really just handing out books or running a monthly team meeting, that sort of thing. I want to introduce you, reintroduce you to my friend Dave Miller. He’s a former worship and creative arts pastor in Las Vegas, in Kentucky, in Michigan, and he and his team have worked with over 150 churches and over 160 residents.

Rich Birch — What do we mean by residents? These are people that are in the pipeline for thinking clearly in their lives about joining your staff team or staff teams of another church somewhere across the country. He defines seven ingredients.

Rich Birch — Listen, I had the honor of writing the foreword to Dave’s book, Who’s the Next You? I would highly recommend you pick up a copy of that and think through that. But let’s listen in a little bit of what Dave has to say today.

[Clip 4 Begins]

Dave Miller — Well, we would say there’s seven ingredients. There’s a chapter in the book, seven ingredients. You can get it on our website right now.

Dave Miller — Seven ingredients of what we would say is leadership development. So what you’re talking about, really, a sermon is training, if you think about it, like in a, in a market sense, I’m going to talk at you for 35 minutes. There’s four points. It’s very good. It’s inspired. It’s like Ted, Ted, long Ted Talk every 52 times a year, plus Christmas Eve and whatever.

Dave Miller — And I would just say, we call that training. Churches for a long time have done really, really well with training, right? It’s either it’s the sermon or it’s Sunday school. It’s even the AI delivered small group questions I get from my men’s group, right?

Dave Miller — It is staff. When I say, do y’all do leadership development? Yeah. Tell me about that.

Dave Miller — And they start talking about your book or Carey’s book or Craig Groeschel’s book. It’s a book of the month. It’s conversation. Even now, now we’ve taken training and we’re still delivering the content, but we’re discussing it and we’re filling in blanks. Right. And we do that.

Dave Miller — And, or spiritual formation. I had a well-known keynote kind of person. We just need to disciple these kids and get out of their way. And I was like, Oh, neat. Actually we don’t.

Dave Miller — We did that once. It’s called the Jesus movement. I think that was the Jesus movement or the Jesus people in the early seventies, which kind of mirrors what’s going on on college campuses, you think.

Dave Miller — We don’t need to just disciple them and get… We got to go with them. So, so training, spiritual formation, soft skills, which is the pain point of all the bosses, the emotional lack of intelligence of things. Those would be the three core ones.

Dave Miller — And then we have to provide best practices. We have to, we have to provide ownership, which is a big thing for us in our small business, small church world at the 12 month mark. When we’re saying, well, she just doesn’t get it. She didn’t get, Oh, what doesn’t she get?

Dave Miller — He just doesn’t understand what… We talk about our downline people as if they’re executive leaders with 20 years of experience. It would be totally fine for someone to accuse me of something like that.

Dave Miller — But like when we think of sports, we don’t talk about individual players. We talk about the coaches. When the team’s losing, whose fault is it? As a lifetime Cincinnati Reds fan we change the manager. We don’t talk about number 78 and 14.

Dave Miller — When the team’s doing amazing, it’s about the player.He’s killing it. She’s killing it. He’s killing it. When the team is losing, we have to own it similarly.

Dave Miller — This is on us.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Dave Miller — Mental wellness. One of the seven things, mental wellness. If you can’t prove to me that you know, I’m not, I’m not here giving you even a theological construct. Cause we work with all sorts of churches that believe all sorts of things, right? But mental health, if you can’t prove to me that you have a plan, at least, or you’ve thought about it, that’s gonna be a problem. We’re checking it on.

Dave Miller — And then finally developmental conversations. This is not delivered only through training to your point.

[Clip 4 Ends]

Rich Birch — What a fantastic group of conversations. Just a thin slice of so many of the conversations we’ve had over the last year in this whole area.

Rich Birch — Tim, he named the model that can keep your and my bench empty. Spence gave us the mindset shift and the shoulder tap. Chris gave us the simplest form of the really first move that costs you absolutely nothing. And Dave finally gave you the formal structure that produces people you could hire, put on your team long-term.

Rich Birch — Listen, you do not need to start at the top. Most churches never start at all because they only think the real option is just going out and hiring people externally. Listen, really the question I want to leave you with is where Tim started us at the beginning.

Rich Birch — Maybe dear listener, you are listening in today and you have the hero mindset. Maybe you need to start with you and figure out what you can do in your area to pass it all along. Listen, we’ve got links for all these four episodes in the show notes here at unSeminary.

Rich Birch — We’re on a mission to help 100 churches grow by a thousand people. We do that through these free podcasts, courses, coaching, cohorts. We do a lot to try to get in your corner.

Rich Birch — We’ve got so much coming up this fall. Stay tuned. Some great stuff coming your way to see your church be more effective.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much, friends. Take care.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Todd Wilson, co-founder of Exponential and a leader at Multipliers, where he helps churches and ministry leaders pursue multiplication and greater Kingdom impact. Todd has spent decades studying church planting, disciple-making, and movements, and his latest book, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward, explores the evolution of the American church growth movement and what it may mean for the future.

Are churches working harder while reaching fewer people? Have our systems become better at producing activity than disciples? Todd challenges leaders to examine the operating system beneath modern church ministry and consider what needs to change if we want to see true reproduction and multiplication.

To learn more about Todd Wilson, visit multipliers.org. You can also download a free PDF or audio version of How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward at church-growth.org or pick up a paper copy on Amazon.com.

In addition, check out Todd Wilson’s conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, and the interview A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have tuned in today for this reason, friends, lean in. um I want you to be a part of the conversation that we’re having today. The leader that we’ve got on the phone, on the I don’t know why say the phone because we have not been on phones for podcasts in, you know, 10 years, but on the line is really pressing on an issue that I know that a large portion, you know, almost 90 percent of the churches in the country need to be doing what we’re talking about today. And they’re not. And I really want you to lean in and learn from Todd Wilson.

Rich Birch — If you do not know Todd Wilson, he has been the founding and co-founding member of a number of faith-based organizations, including Exponential and Multipliers. He has designed a number, and been a part of the launch of a multiple of national church planting networks. He’s currently a team member, or team leader at Multipliers and serves leaders and ministries who are pursuing multiplication, helping them develop vision and strategy ultimately for a 100 X impact. You know that I love that.

Rich Birch — Recently, he wrote a book that caught my attention that I want to dive in on and kind of um unpack some of the core lessons for us today. It’s called, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. And it’s really looking at the whole conversation, American church growth movement. Todd, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.

Todd Wilson — Rich, it’s great to be here with you. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.

Rich Birch — Yeah, me too. So why don’t we start with kind of giving us a picture of Multipliers and the work that you’re focused on now, kind of set the context for us.

Todd Wilson — Sure. It’s probably good to have the context, you know, at at my core, my own personal calling. I am an entrepreneurial engineer at my core. I love to envision, envisage opportunities, seek strategies and opportunities of the future. And so where I like to do it anywhere, there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact. And that’s what gets me in trouble often is the, wherever there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact.

Todd Wilson — When I came out of the marketplace over 25 years ago into full-time ministry, the most natural hundred X place for me, in addition to being in the local church was, was church planting. I was just drawn to church planting. I got to spend almost 20 years, ah you know, leading Exponential and co-founding there.

Todd Wilson — And in recent years, really trying to get even more focused really on the 100x impact. I want to spend my next decade as I’m getting older here, you know, what’s it look like for every hour, for every dollar, for every bit of energy, to see 100x return.

Todd Wilson — And so the idea of Multipliers, and it’s a small team of us that, you know, we have a definite bias within the kingdom space to the disciple-making as the mission and engine of the church. And what’s it look like to get back to Jesus style disciple making. But then church planting and multiplication, what does it look like to be doing things that that are even capable of reproduction that can lead to multiplication and ultimately movement. So our goal is to just help champion at the personal level through personal calling, at the church level through disciple making and cultures of disciple making that can ultimately produce movements.

Todd Wilson — And so we are a champion and advocate for that.

Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. You and I are are similarly wired. And over the years, you know I’ve heard people talk about, you know, and they always they’ll do like a series at a church on spiritual gifts. And I’ve often wondered because of the kinds of things I’ve been involved in, if, you know, if I have some sort of apostolic gift, just because of the stuff I found myself doing and, you know, launching campuses and all that.

Rich Birch — And it’s interesting that gift over the years I’ve heard, which is similar to the kind of work you’ve been doing over the years is the only gift that I’ve ever noticed that preachers, they seem to talk down about it. And they’re like, stop starting things like, you know, they’re like, they always, you know, are like on the negative side of, you know, being the guy who wants to be entrepreneurial and see new things.

Rich Birch — And that’s a part of what I admire about you and the good work you’ve done. When you were at Exponential over those, you know, with you that you co-founded, you know, that almost 20 years, you know, they had this, they saw some amazing things happen there under your leadership, where this idea of moving church reproduction from under 5%, really trying to push us towards 16%.

Rich Birch — So for people that are unaware of this, I think this is good context to kind of take a step back and talk about why that number, why are we actually, why are you giving decades of your life towards this idea of trying to move towards 16%? What do we mean by that when you you know talk about that? Because I think that’s a good foundational idea for today’s conversation.

Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think it’s important it to understand, again, context for me. I didn’t grow up a Christian. I never had a dream to be in full-time vocational ministry. I’ve never wanted to be a lead pastor of anything. You know, ministry was the farthest thing from my mind growing up. When you’re asking kids, what do you want do when you grow up?

Todd Wilson — So when God brought me into full-time vocational ministry, and I’m going to say kicking and screaming, I wanted to go start a company. I wanted to go make money. I wanted to go change the world. And so coming into full-time vocational ministry, why in the world would I want to see anything except movements happening?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Todd Wilson — We read about movements in the New Testament. Why do I want to be personally satisfied if God’s calling me into a new life of ministry with anything less than seeing movements?

Todd Wilson — And so that was my context of stepping in and and leading at Exponential and what was driving us. And your question from 5% to 16%. Well, Houston, we have a problem.

Todd Wilson — If movements are multiplication, and multiplication is generational reproduction, and we, at the time we were starting Exponential, there were less than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing. You just got to let that sink in.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Todd Wilson — 95% of churches just 25 years ago, 95% of churches in the U.S. are not reproducing. It’s physically impossible, both mathematically and biblically, to see multiplication and ultimately movements if less than 5% of churches are reproducing.

Todd Wilson — So the answer to where’s the 5 to 16, for me personally, God’s called me into a new life and a new ministry. I don’t want to be satisfied with just status quo, but the state of the U.S. church is such that we physically can’t see 100x impact in the operating system of how things are working.

Todd Wilson — So the 5 to 16 was very simple. Let’s measure where we’re at. And so the 16% sociologists say that if you can get 16% of an audience acting a certain way, behaving a certain way, it will become normative for everyone else. I like to say, if you’re in a room and you start quacking like a duck to talk, if you can get 16% of the people in the audience quacking like a duck, then everybody’s going to communicate by quacking like a duck.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — And so it just became a conviction. Let’s move the needle from less than 5% to 16%. And then the language we would use is, at 16%, healthy church reproduction would become such a normative thing that we would see multiplication happening.

Todd Wilson — Now, the little bit of an elephant in the room before we move on, church planting is just the outcome. So that 5% number, it’s an outcome of the system and what’s happening.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — The more ornery number is that the national studies that we did on what percentage of U.S. churches have a disciple-making culture. That’s also less than 5%.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — So 95% of churches don’t have a functional mission of disciple-making, and that’s their normative growth engine through disciple-making. So in reality, we have a disciple-making problem, not a church-planting problem. And so those two became very tied together, as as will become evident as we have this interview.

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. and And just can you define generational reproduction for folks that are listening in? When you when you when you say that, like, hey, we’re trying to move churches towards generational reproduction, kind of just unpack that a little bit more.

Todd Wilson — Yeah, let’s let’s start at the personal level of disciple-making. If one person makes a disciple of another person, you’ve got one generation. If that person goes on to make another disciple two generations, that person makes a disciple three generations. We see that biblically. We see that in the leadership pipeline with Paul, that you know we need to see disciples who make disciples who make disciples.

Todd Wilson — Once you get to the third or fourth generation of something reproducing itself, if you drew that on paper, one becomes two, two becomes four, four becomes eight, eight becomes 16. That is an exponential or a multiplication curve. So all you have to do to go from addition to multiplication is have healthy reproduction broad and wide multiple generations into the future.

Todd Wilson — Now we just take that to the church level, a church that plants a church that plants a church that plants a church broad and wide.

Todd Wilson — Now you’ve gone from one church to 16 churches. And now look at the collective attendance of those 16 churches. That’s what you call healthy growth. That’s what you call multiplication when you keep reproducing it over and over.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And there’s actually been progress against this. This is one of the things that I’ve loved as a person just sitting on the outside looking in as you and the team, you know, Dave and the broader Exponential community have really been hammering away at this. You know, we’re not at 16% yet, but we’re seeing progress, which is which is amazing.

Todd Wilson — Right. It’s in the studies that we did, and it’s been repeated a couple of times, the needle has moved to at least 7%. That may not sound like a lot, but if you go take the number of churches we’re talking about…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Todd Wilson — …and that needle moving from less than 5% to 7%. And we’re not taking credit for all that at Exponential.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — We’re getting to ride a wave that really started around 2000. Prior to 2000, denominations planted churches, not really churches or networks. We saw the birth of networks around 2000 in the U.S. It’s hard for people to realize, but like in the church planting world, groups like City to City and GlocalNet and Acts 29 and ARC and Church Multiplication Network and Stadia and New Thing Network, none of them existed.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Todd Wilson — Literally in a five-year time period, we saw the birth of all these church planting networks, and that happened to coincide with that we saw that need to start Exponential to serve those networks.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — So We we were a little bit the right group at the right place, advocating for the right thing.

Todd Wilson — And I do think that generally the the wonderful thing is that as that needle is starting to move and the visibility is getting more and more, the next generation wants it.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, I would agree.

Todd Wilson — They want the scorecard of that. So I feel very optimistic that we’re still a ways away from 16%, but the needle is moving in the right direction.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I would echo that too. I think there is, um you know, one of the couple years ago, I had one of those ages in my life flip over with zero on the end that you kind of notice and you reflect back on life a little bit. And I would say one of the things I’ve noticed over, you know, almost 30 years of ministry is this issue is has become more normative. Like it’s it’s a part of the conversation. It’s not that everyone’s doing it, but it’s in the dialogue, which I think is is wonderful.

Rich Birch — Well, I, so you know, there’s, you interact with a lot of church leaders across the country. You interact with a lot of people, you have a pulse on a lot of, you know, what’s going on. And there’s a growing sense, you have flagged that there’s a growing sense among leaders that there’s just something wrong. It’s like, you know, there’s like a stink in the bottom of our, our, garbage that’s like, oh it’s a little bit stinky. It’s not like overwhelming, but we can’t put our finger on exactly what that is.

Rich Birch — They can’t necessarily name it, but we feel it. We kind of see that there’s maybe something in the way we’re doing what we’re doing that isn’t working. What are you hearing as you sit across the table from church leaders in across the country, you know, around all of these things that we’re talking about?

Todd Wilson — Let me describe it a couple of different ways. I think the the word I would put on it is an angst. I think if you look at the definition of an angst, there’s a there’s a growing and an underlying angst. um I’m going to say, if I’m descriptive of the angst, that might not be the way people would exactly say it but it’s how I translate what I’m hearing.

Todd Wilson — We are working a lot harder to reach less people and we don’t like the cultural Christian product we’re getting. We’re working a lot harder. We’re spending more money to reach fewer people. And we’re just having this angst that the product we’re producing is a little bit too much consumer cultural Christian as we’re working harder and spending more money. And that leaves somebody full time, know, if I mean, if you’re a full time vocational pastor, there’s an angst that sits in the middle of that dynamic going on.

Todd Wilson — My mentor and friend, Robert Lewis, who led Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock for years, Robert’s handed off the leadership back in 2005. Robert describes it this way. He did the foreword on my recent book, and when he read and reviewed the book, he said, Todd, oh my goodness, this is first and foremost a walk down history lane. It’s like going back and looking at history.

Todd Wilson — But he said, here’s the thing. I had this angst in 2005. Everything was up and to the right. We were growing. We were doing new campuses. We had started a church planting. Like we’re doing all of the stuff. People are turning to us. They’re looking at what we’re doing. We had started a leadership conference. And I just had this angst that something wasn’t right.

Todd Wilson — And he said, I couldn’t name it. He said, I needed a therapist. But where does a megachurch pastor who’s having nothing but success with up and to the right, who’s feeling angst about the system, where do you go for therapy in that? He’s like, I didn’t know whether to feel like I was being ungrateful or what.

Todd Wilson — And his words were, as you’ve traced the 75 years of the church growth movement and its evolution into a consumer-driven operating system, you have named my angst. I wish I would have had this book in 2005 to name my angst because half the battle is getting our hands around understanding why we’re feeling the way we do.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I was talking to denominational leader within the last year to kind of add a bit more flavor even to that angst, who was saying, and this is a fantastic denomination, you know, Jesus loving, you know, fantastic group of people um and have, you know, very similar what you’re saying, like lots of good things going on.

Rich Birch — And this was one of those like, After dinner conversations, you know, long ah a long ways away from a bunch of leaders, we were just chatting on the sideline. And he said, you know, the interesting thing, when you look at our tribe, his movement, he rattled off all their stats. We have a certain number of churches. We have a certain number of pastors. We have a certain number of, you know, baptisms every year. It rattles all that off.

Rich Birch — And he said, you know, if you were to look at where we were 20 years ago, the number of churches is the same, the number of, and rattled off all these stats that are the same. Like we’re baptizing the same number of people, the attendance is the same, the the like all these things. He said, the only thing that’s gone up in the last 20 years is we’ve doubled our staff head count. There’s twice as many staff today as there was. And when I read, heard about your book and you talk about this angst, I was like, ooh, that’s exactly what he was describing. He’s like, wait a second. what’s happening here. And him as a denominational leader, he had the same read, hey, there’s something wrong with the way we set this thing up.

Rich Birch — So your book, let’s actually dive into a little bit. It starts really at 70 year arc from Donald McGavron from 1955, all the way to today. And so for a leader who’s never really stepped back and thought about the history of like, what, how did we get here? It’s the name of your book. Why does knowing what got us to where we are today, this kind of consumer operating system that you describe, why does, how does understanding that help us as we think about the future?

Todd Wilson — It’s a really good question. And I’m not sure, honestly, that I when I, when I set out to write this book, that, that that was even driving me to begin with, but very quickly that became the, I realized that’s why I need to write this book.

Todd Wilson — So let, let me explain. And I need to give you a little bit of background to explain, because it’s an important question.

Rich Birch — Yep, yep, for sure.

Todd Wilson — So when I think about the moment that, that I realized we had a problem. Like that that, okay, we’re on this trajectory, things are moving the right direction to the 16%, and I’m back in the leadership of Exponential now. And I’m realizing, oh my goodness, we really do have a problem. And here’s here was what that looked like.

Todd Wilson — I believed we had started learning communities and we had very vibrant learning communities And our learning communities got started because we felt like we need to shift the paradigm of people’s measure of success in the scorecard of church. It was very much about we need to shift paradigm. Alan Hirsch was involved with this on how do we shift from just growing large things to growing decentralized things that saturate. And it was very much about scorecard.

Todd Wilson — And if you think about it, we’re wanting to move the needle from 5% to 16%. That’s a scorecard thing. So our initiating event was scorecard. But as we got into these learning communities, which in my opinion were the best things we were doing at Exponential. I mean, they were six to eight month learning journeys and we would rock people’s paradigm.

Todd Wilson — We really would. People would go through it and be like, Oh my goodness, I got to have a different view of success in the church.

Rich Birch — Right. yeah

Todd Wilson — And guess what? They’d go home and Sunday’s coming.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — There’s, services to run, there’s people to pastor, there’s things to do. And the aha moment for me came, Rich, when I realized the the whole definition of insanity, that if you just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome, but that’s insanity. And here I am trying to lead a national organization to see a change in scorecard to move the needle to 16%.

Todd Wilson — And I remember the day that I realized we’re not going to get there with the operating system we have in place in church right now. This operating system is not capable of getting us to the 16% number.

Todd Wilson — That was a personal crisis. I’m leading an organization that’s up and to the right that the needle is moving. But as a futurist, I’m realizing we’re not going to get where we need to be with the operating system in the church. So the the operating system part was what drove me to start writing this book. I’ll let you ask a question there, and then we’ll circle back to the how does it relate to understanding how we got here, though.

Rich Birch — Yeah, so ah just to underline what you’re saying there, um you know in in other conversations, I’ve heard leaders say, you know it’s like, um you know what you know what you reach people with is what you end up keeping them with. And so if what I hear you saying, just putting, I think, other language around it, but correct me, is kind of a consumer-oriented or a consumer cultural operating system that we’ve we’ve used as a church…

Todd Wilson — Right.

Rich Birch — …you know, obviously by definition, if you ah use a um consumption-based model, that doesn’t, leave you it’s very difficult to turn around and say, okay, now become a multiplier. You know, we got you here as a consumer. Okay, now how do we make you a multiplier? Is that the core pain?

Todd Wilson — It is. And Rich, you’re painting the picture of why looking back to understand how we got here is important. If it’s true, that are ah If it’s true, and I want to suggest people ought to go look at it for themselves, that the underlying operating system that has evolved over the last 75 years, it’s not where it started with Donald McGavern in 1955. And there was never bad intentions by any of the good people through the 70 years.

Rich Birch — Yeah, right.

Todd Wilson — We have evolved from what was originally one thing. into a consumer model that is way more focused on success is growing big, success is making converts, not necessarily disciples. And we we can diagnose that if there’s a problem today, and I suggest there is a problem today, then how we got here and understanding how over 70 years, what was intended to be one thing, gradually (like the frog getting boiled in cold water) turned into something else.

Todd Wilson — We’ve got to go through the the, if we really want to change the operating system, and I’ve seen how hard it is, guys can have the paradigm shift. We need to change. Then they go back home into the operating system that they’re operating in. And it is really, really hard to just throw off one operating system and embrace another one

Todd Wilson — And I wouldn’t even encourage people to do that. Don’t go home and just change your operating system overnight. But if you do want to make thoughtful, progressive change, the best way to do it is to start by going back and learn the lesson of how did we get where we are?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Todd Wilson — How did things get off track to where to where we are?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Todd Wilson — And that’s what ended you know, I started out the book really to go after understanding the operating system itself. And very quickly came to the conclusion, oh, we I’m not sure how we’re going to move to a new operating system if people don’t go through the hard work of looking back and understanding how well-intentioned people over time have delivered for us what we have today in a flawed system.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, I know, again, from my own personal experience, not to bring this back to me, but to my own personal experience, again, it’s been interesting to see similar patterns. You know, every couple years, there’s like some new idea that comes up in the church. And oftentimes I’m like, yeah, this is just like of rehash of a thing I saw 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago.

Rich Birch — It’s like, oh, this is is brand new. It’s like, ah, it’s echoes of things we’ve seen in the past. So why don’t we just kind of give people a flyover or a walkover of the kind of eras that you kind of define as you went through the book, just to give people a high level.

Rich Birch — Ultimately friends, you know, I’m encouraging you to to do two things out of today. One is to pick up, I think this could be a great book for you and your team to go through. You and your leadership team, buy copies of this, read it. I think it could be an interesting book for you or, and go and listen to Todd’s interview with Carey as well. Carey just takes longer in his podcast and has more time. So there’s going to be, there’s lots packed into that as well.

Rich Birch — But why don’t you kind of give us a flyover of the eras? And then maybe when you think about each one of those, something that was like, really positive that came from that area something like hey there’s something good there or maybe there’s something there that we’ve got to be cautious about as we think about the future.

Todd Wilson — Yeah. And just to be clear, Rich, you know this, ah I’m a local church guy. My calling is a local church. I’m still on staff at a local church. I love the local church. So this part of the, difficulty for me in spending two years and over a hundred hours of interviews and putting this timeline of history together is I love the church.

Todd Wilson — And I I, don’t know that I’d be sitting here talking to you if it weren’t for several of these eras I’m getting ready to name to you. So you’ve got really, I think a common thread through across these areas as we jump into them is typically apostolic, evangelistically driven leaders who really want to reach people. Hell is real. Lost people are going there. We got to reach them. And I think that’s the driving factor across all these eras is well-intentioned people…

Todd Wilson — And if I can start with the end point, I think we’ve sort of co-opted the more holistic disciple-making growth engine that’s capable of generational disciple-making with strategies for institutional programmatic growth that are not capable of reproduction. They’re very good at growing large things and reaching lots of people, but not necessarily making, you know, through relational disciple making, disciples who make disciples who plant churches that plant churches.

Todd Wilson — So here’s how I would do the flyover. When I got started writing this history, I thought I was doing one chapter of this history in another book.

Rich Birch — I love it.

Todd Wilson — And one chapter turned into two chapters and three chapters. And eventually my editor said, Todd, you just need to do a full book.

Rich Birch — Well, that’s a book.

Todd Wilson — And it ends up turning into the longest book I’ve written because of the 75 year history. And ah Rich, seriously, don’t, people don’t need to feel bad if they don’t know all the history. I, I’m like a where’s Waldo through a lot of this history. I’ve had a seat at the table for a lot of the stuff through these eras.

Todd Wilson — Until writing this book, I did not know how all the dots connected across these eras. And then it became there were so many, oh, oh, oh. So here’s here’s the shot I’ll give to you. Ididn’t really I knew I had heard of Donald McGavern. I knew he was considered the father of the modern church growth movement. I’ve never, prior to writing this book, read about him, gone off and studied him. Gary McIntosh is his by is Donald McGavern’s biographer. So I spent a lot of time with Gary. He pointed me in the right directions.

Todd Wilson — And here’s what I learned. Donald McGavern, born in the late 1800s, international missionary in India. um His father and mother were missionaries in India. He came from the mission field and his context was the international mission field.

Todd Wilson — Now, get this as the starting point in 1955. He’s an international missionary. He has planted 15 churches himself in his career, none of which ever grew to more than 100 people. So you got to let that sink in. The father of the modern church growth movement planted 15 churches, none of which grew to more than 100. And yet he’s the father of what we consider now the modern church growth movement.

Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.

Todd Wilson — So the kind the context was, he became fascinated after reading a research report on why some churches in provinces in India were growing and others weren’t. Sometimes churches in the same village that were growing and just down the street, others weren’t.

Todd Wilson — So he kind of took a scientific approach, the study of church growth. Like let’s study this like it’s a science, like what’s causing some churches to grow. And he he had very clear conclusions out of that, but you know, a handful of conclusions of what’s causing that.

Todd Wilson — And so ultimately, when he came off the mission field by 1960, 61, he started the Church Growth Institute, not for U.S. pastors, but for international missionaries who were on furlough to come home and learn about church growth principles that they could take back to the international mission field. He had no interest in U.S. pastors.

Todd Wilson — So for multiple years in the 60s, he was doing that. And when Fuller wanted to start their International School of World Missions, one of their best faculty member ratings was Donald McGavern. So they invited him to come become the founding dean of the the Fuller School of World Missions.

Todd Wilson — But he only agreed to do it if he could bring the Church Growth Institute with him. So by 1970, you’ve got that up and running. He’s built his team. He invited a guy called C. Peter Wagner off the mission field to come be on his faculty staff. And in 1970, 71, Peter Wagner convinced Donald McGavern that they ought to run one class for U.S. pastors on church growth.

Todd Wilson — And the rest is history. That one class, it just turned into, Imean, people were very interested in it. Denominations became interested. And literally within a couple of years, you’ve got this up and to the right people latching on to church growth science.

Todd Wilson — And that starts the process, you know. Even from the beginning, you start to see a little bit of co-opting away from McGavern’s things. Not fast, but a little bit.

Todd Wilson — So right on the heels of that, in the 70s then, you’ve got this young kid, ah Bill Hybels…

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — …who’s running you know going to go into business and he’s running a street ministry with youth. He’s being mentored by Robert Shuler.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Todd Wilson — And Shuler’s got the possibility thinking, think outside the box, very apostolic. Turns out Shuler not only mentors Hybels, but there’s some mentoring of Rick Warren. And so you’ve got the birth of the seeker-sensitive era then.

Todd Wilson — You know, if the first era was the McGavern-Roots era, now we’ve got the seeker-sensitive era. And, you know, that can be a positive or a negative stigma. For me, in 1976, I’m in middle school going into high school, not a Christian, live down the street from this movie theater called the Willow Creek Movie Theater.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Todd Wilson — And my mom drags us kicking and screaming into the Willow Creek Movie Theater. We were the avatar family for the Seeker Sensitive family movement.

Rich Birch — Right. Movement.

Todd Wilson — From Seeker Sensitive, you get out of that the what Peter Drucker and Bob Buford would call the large church phenomena and the birth of Leadership Network then with the large church phenomena, which became the megachurch phenomena.

Todd Wilson — You’ve got Rick Warren and his masterful work with the purpose-driven church. Rick’s able to put handles on this church growth part, but Rick was a disciple of Donald McGavern, so he’s got the McGavern roots.

Todd Wilson — You’ve got Hybels with the Shuler roots. And in that 80 into the 90s with the birth of the Global Leadership Summit and the other, you’ve you’ve got this very influential large church phenomena, purpose-driven, being shaped by, you know, in large part, the combination of Leadership Network, Hybels, Rick Warren… And that brings us up to you know about 2000.

Todd Wilson — And just as a flyover, I would then call the era of the externally focused church. You’ve got the rapid fire birth of church planting networks. You’ve got multi-site. People don’t realize prior to 2000, there’s less than 50 multi-site churches.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Todd Wilson — Leadership Network engages it in 2000. And from 2000 to 2010 you see an up, I mean, radically up and to the right.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — The externally focused church, same thing. Rick Russo has book right in that time period. The missional guys, right in that time period. So the common theme between these church planning networks, the missional guys, the externally focused guys, the multi-site, is we’re now looking outside of ourselves.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — But in large part, we’re still looking outside of ourselves as growth strategies for our things. If you really go look under the hood of a lot of those.

Todd Wilson — And then I would say coming out of the externally or outwardly focused era, 2015 to 2025, I just have no other name than the disruption era. As I was doing the research on this book, um I had to stop at like 12 major disruptions that happened in that time period with COVID right in the middle.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — And so that’s the…

Rich Birch — Political upheaval. There’s a bunch in there in that same, you know, yeah, that there’s been a schism.

Todd Wilson — You’ve got deconstruction of faith.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Todd Wilson — You’ve got cynicism. You’ve got platformed individualism with the birth of social media. Now anybody can be their own, you know, playlist influencer. There’s just so many disruptive factors in there.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — Now you look at all those disruptive factors with the evolution of what’s happening in the church and the church operating system. And it leaves us on a very shaky foundation at that point that, you know It kind of brings us up to where we are now, and you can either be a pessimist at that or an optimist. And I choose the optimist path that we’re poised for a new day and a new operating system is my prayer.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And friends, as you can see, you just got a real thin slice of, you know, just all the various phases that you do such a great job unpacking for us to help us really understand how we we got here. It was It was wild, it’s wild thinking about a lot of that because I remember, you know, various phases of those over the last particularly 25 years, you know, seeing that up close and seeing, you know, kind of the impact that has had and then wondering about the future and where we go from here.

Rich Birch — So thinking about the future and, you know, obviously you’ve, um you know, you’ve you’re making a clear clarion call around, hey, we’ve got to think differently than the consumer driven operating system. We’ve got to we’ve got to come up with something different. After all of that, um and we’ve kind of covered this already, but I’d love to make sure we kind of hone on this, have this resonate with people that are listening in. Why is it so difficult for that system, for the consumer-driven operating system to to really ultimately produce healthy reproduction and multiplication and in churches? What’s structurally ah broken about it? And what what would be some first steps we should be thinking about change to the future as we think about, okay, where we go from here?

Todd Wilson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — How do we, you know, build on the positive stuff, but also look for something different as we look to the future?

Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think we don’t have to make it complex, Rich, if we just keep trying to come back to simplicity for a minute. Like the system that has evolved has actually become pretty complex when you think about it. I would say if we could just focus on, I’m not even going to say changing overnight, but if if I’m a lead pastor, if I’m on staff at a church, I’m really focused on disciple-making as the core mission and growth engine of the church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — Like what is it, most churches are going to say our mission is disciple making or it’s going to be part of it. They’re going to say we have a culture of disciple making, but it is not what the data shows.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — You know, again, 95% of churches do not have a culture of disciple-making. They have a culture of program activity.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — And so I’m not an advocate of changing everything overnight, but if you want to shift from a culture of program activity to a true culture of disciple-making‚ it has to start with the lead minister having a simple, reproducible, in-practice disciple-making approach that is being modeled for the… I don’t mean discipling the staff. I mean there’s people the lead pastor are personally discipling, modeling that simple, reproducible process.

Todd Wilson — Where we’re starting to see traction and where I think the breakthroughs are going to come in getting us to the new operating system of the future, it is going to start, and it’s it’s happening right now, with pastors who say, you know, if I’m really honest, I’ve been preaching the last 52 weeks. I’ve been leading meetings. I’ve been doing, I’ve been doing, I’ve done, but I’m not really personally making disciples.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — And I think it’s going to start with the lead pastor, the elders, senior people saying, If we could only have one metric of success in the next 12 months, it’s not growth, it’s not the activities we do, it’s not the new building. If we only have one measure of success, it’s how many disciples have I personally, relationally been involved in? me Not how many have I preached to, not how many outreach events have we done where we’ve got, but what have I personally done on the disciple-making front?

Todd Wilson — And I don’t want to make it more complicated than that. That’s what we’re missing right now.

Rich Birch — That’s good. No, that’s really good. Yeah, that’s good. I love the practical takeaway of, um yeah, it’s like, who are the three people in your life that you’re actually discipling? Let’s start there.

Rich Birch — So this is kind of a sidebar to it.

Todd Wilson — Can I just look real quick?

Rich Birch — Yes. Yep. Push back. Yep.

Todd Wilson — So David Putman, who’s part of what we do at Multipliers, David’s longtime kingdom guy.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Todd Wilson — You should have him on as an interview here. David is completely focused on what he calls the 5-3-2 right now. Five simple reproducible principles, three rhythms, and and two relationships. So it’s a triad of three people that just keeps reproducing.

Todd Wilson — Anybody can do it. A ninth grader can do it. A lead pastor can do it. I’m watching this model take different groups by storm right now. And whether you embrace the 5-3-2 or some other model like it, the key is going to be having a simple, reproducible process that works for the lead pastor and anyone else in the church. Same model.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah we had David on back in 2020 and I’m like we got to get him back on uh the podcast.

Rich Birch — So sidebar issue, so this is not something we’d you know kicked around ahead of time but it’s kind of adjacent to this. So I am not a I’m not a teaching pastor. Similar to you. I’m not, i never saw myself as a lead pastor. I’ve always been in the like, Hey, my job’s to be in the second chair, cheering for other lead pastors. I’ve worked for um really over my career as an XP three incredible communicator lead pastors who it would appear like, and it is, they, all three of them, God gifted them with this ability to speak and gather crowds. Like that was like core. And, and I, I’ve spent a lot of time like listening to them and watching them. And part of it just appears to be like, it’s definitely a gifting that’s going on there.

Rich Birch — And I, over time, ah questions like the following would come up that I would I’d struggle with, where it’s like, it would appear like this person can gather a lot of people, and we can build more chairs in front of that person and people will hear that person and they’ll they’ll take steps towards Jesus.

Rich Birch — And I understand that that’s not, or that’s not a full picture of discipleship. That’s one piece of the discipleship puzzle, but it’s not… And the the kind of organizational pressure is, okay, let’s keep figuring out how to build more seats in front of this person and and their gift. How do we get them to leverage their gift well?

Rich Birch — And to be honest, I’ve been in conversations where I’ve been the voice of like, I want to line 100,000 people up in front of this person to hear this person speak because I think the way they talk about Jesus is different than what I’ve heard other people say and it it’ll make a difference.

Rich Birch — That is, I think, at the center of this tension that there’s some there seems to be something about the gift of teaching that it’s not, I don’t know whether it’s not evenly distributed, or there’s like a brokenness in humanity and we only want to listen to certain kinds of people. I don’t know whether it’s one of those two things. So all I’ve done is describe a problem and I’m going to say, comment on it, Todd.

Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think you’re right on the mark. I think I want to affirm that, you know, I mean, everybody has their definitions. I believe the preaching role is, and and the teaching and reaching is a piece of the discipleship equation.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Todd Wilson — I think if I’m defining the problem statement, We have made it the biggest piece…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Todd Wilson — …instead of a piece or a playing a role in it. So I think the issue is that how big we’ve made it. Like you, I was an executive pastor for years. And when I look back on that time, my role was not about holistic relational disciple making that could be the growth engine of the church. and it It was how do we get as many people in seats in the auditorium on Sunday? We need great marketing. We need great outreach.

Todd Wilson — And again, I think all of those play a role in the disciple-making process ultimately. But let’s just be honest, that’s not disciple-making itself. It plays a role in the disciple-making process.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — So the elephant in the room here is, how do we scale disciple-making? If I if I could be If I could be the czar of this, I’m not, but if I could be, I want the genius at the end. I want the unique gifts that are represented across the whole mosaic and the church, starting with that dynamic creature that can attract the crowd. I want it.

Todd Wilson — But I also want those senior leaders of the organization I really want to be focused on what is our growth engine and what is our holistic disciple-making process.

Rich Birch — Right.

Todd Wilson — And the number one thing I want from those senior leaders is not their unique gift. I want their modeling, their personal modeling of the simple, reproducible, disciple-making growth engine that anybody in the church can do.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Todd Wilson — I mean, that that preaching gift you’re talking about, that that one lead pastor can do, how many other people in the church can do that?

Rich Birch — Right. Not many. Yep.

Todd Wilson — So there’s their paradigm. So we need them doing it.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Todd Wilson — But I would argue what we need them doing even more than that inspiration is modeling the simple reproducible disciple making thing that people know that’s how we’re going to win here.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I’ve that lines up, I’ve said it at probably, well, not a thousand times, but hundreds of times with lead pastors over the years that in the context of this conversation, I would rather them weave in the discussion about their discipleship relationships as like just a normative part of conversation rather than the, we’re doing six weeks on discipleship and how to become disciple making. I’m like, if you just pepper that stuff in week in, week out, it just is a normative part of the conversation that changes culture.

Rich Birch — The kind of like, we’re going to make it a program. We’re going to brand it. We’ve got a great name on it. And my experience has been, it’s it’s a little bit like nailing jello to the wall. There’s there’s actually some of that containing of what we’re talking about actually kills the exact thing that we’re trying to do. And so, man, I think there’s a real tension there. And how do we help those people?

Rich Birch — Because it’s not like we want them to do a worse job. It’s not like, hey, if you could stop talking in a way that attracts a crowd, that’s not the answer. But we’ve got to, like you say, how do we move them into those personal relationships? That’s fantastic.

Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation…

Todd Wilson — My question would be, Rich, what what would happen…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Todd Wilson — …if an average lead pastor went on a one-year journey to to of disciple-making themselves? Call it a triad, call it four, five. They’re always, over the next year, going to be in a disciple-making small micro group…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Todd Wilson — …and all of their preaching is going to be informed.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Todd Wilson — That’s their laboratory of learning.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s their paradigm. Yeah, that’s good.

Todd Wilson — That’s their paradigm. And now they’re bringing it to life, not just as periodic examples, but, you know, my whole frame of reference of my library is what comes out of that experience.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Todd Wilson — And our problem right now is that’s just lack. It isn’t that it’s inserted a little bit. It’s just lacking.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, this has been great. what ah What a great conversation. And as you can tell, friends, there’s a lot we could talk about there. And a lot you know just there’s a rich conversation that could be had around this.

Rich Birch — Let’s let’s pivot and kind of talk a little bit about the book specifically. i want to make sure people pick up copies of this. Again, the name of it is How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. People can get this on Amazon. Are there other places that you would send people if they want to pick up copies of this?

Todd Wilson — Yeah. So if they go to church-growth.org, church-growth.org, that’s the book’s homepage. You can actually get the free PDF there. You can get the free audio version there. There’s a full wiki there that people can contribute to. What you kind of mentioned it in passing, but I’ll highlight, it is impossible to read this book and not see yourself in it.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.

Todd Wilson — Anyone who’s been a Christian for a while, they, the editor of the book said the power of this is going to be, she said, I can tell you the page in the book that I entered the story.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Todd Wilson — So you’ve got the free PDF, the free audio, the wiki, and then for people that just want the paper versions, you can get it on Amazon.


Rich Birch — That’s great. And we’ll link to that friends so that you can, you know, find that quickly in the show notes and, and friends, I would encourage you again, to me, I think this could be a great resource to do with your leadership team, as I mentioned earlier. It would be a great kind of conversation starter and really context setter for us to think through these issues as we think about the future.

Rich Birch — So kind of as we, as we come to close up today’s conversation, any final words as we wrap up today?

Todd Wilson — Rich, I just appreciate the work you’re doing. I want to be an encouragement to pastors. Don’t let this book be, it’s not a deconstruction book. It’s not, oh my goodness, the church has fallen apart.

Rich Birch — No, yeah.

Todd Wilson — We need to keep plugging away doing what we’re doing, but we also have to have an eye on the future that this operating system that has evolved, everything has a beginning and an end. And this operating system, I believe, is in its final days. I think we’re we’re seeing you know less and less effectiveness with it. And I think we just need to be in a posture of giving permission to the next generations to do some trial and error and experimentation and not be locked into the paradigm of the of the past inheriting previous things.

Rich Birch — No, fantastic, Todd. I appreciate you being here. And I would echo that, you know, you’re you’re the kind of leader that’s in our corner trying to help us get better. And so I appreciate the voice that you’ve had for for decades. And so I really appreciate that.

Rich Birch — If people want to track with you, get connected, follow along with Multipliers where do we want to send them online?

Todd Wilson — Multipliers.org can get me to all the different ways from email to phone to social media. So multipliers.org.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Todd. Appreciate you being here, sir.

Todd Wilson — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate it.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Michelle Drake, a Christian health coach, Pilates instructor, and host of the Health Habits for Christian Moms podcast. After overcoming years of eating disorders, perfectionism, and an unhealthy relationship with food and exercise, Michelle now helps Christian moms pursue health from a place of stewardship rather than striving. In this conversation, she offers a compassionate and practical perspective on creating healthier rhythms for women in ministry.

To learn more about Michelle Drake visit michelledrake.co and listen to her Health Habits for Christian Moms podcast.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Intulse

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, if you’re an executive pastor, senior leader, person that’s like over leading people in your church, you’re going to want to tune into today’s episode. You’re going to want to stay connected all the way to the end because I suspect that today’s thing that we’re talking about, you’ve either reflected on and thought, hmm, that’s something that I’ve got to work on. We’ve got to think through as an organization. Or we’re going to name an issue today that I think you should work on and be thinking about. So whether you think it or you should just want to listen to me you should tune in and be a part of this conversation.

Rich Birch — I’m excited to have a new friend of mine, Michelle Drake, on the on the phone on the phone. We’re not on phones, on the internet, on the not even on the internet, on the podcast. Michelle and I attend the same church, Connexus Church, and have a mutual friend and made the connection. And we got talking, got to know each other. And I said, hey, Michelle, I got to get you on the podcast. I want I want people to hear from you and learn from you.

Rich Birch — So Michelle, why don’t we start with kind of tell us a little of your background. What do you do? Who are you? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Michelle Drake — So hi, I’m Michelle. I am a mom. I am a Pilates instructor. But most importantly, I am a daughter of the king. I am a Jesus lover, follower. And really, I think that why I’m landing here today is because I spent a lot of my life feeling like I was never enough. I was a perfectionist really early on. I was always trying to prove my worth. And, you know throughout my teenage years, I really used food and exercise as a way to cope and gain control over my life. And that quickly spiraled into multiple eating disorders and that I battled. And I was in and out of the hospital throughout my whole teenage life, basically.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Michelle Drake — So yeah, so it was really chaos. So that’s kind of the foundation of like ah the where I have where I am at now.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Michelle Drake — You know, so even like I went to university when I went to university, I was like trying to go to the furthest university way to run away from my problems, but of course they followed me there.

Rich Birch — Right.

Michelle Drake — And instead of things getting better, unfortunately, they spiraled more, more extreme. I kind of swung to the opposite extreme. So where I once was like overly controlled with like food and exercise, I lost control completely. And so, you know, where I had once been like super underweight and ended up the hospital with severe eating disorders, I was like now gaining a ton of weight. Like I wasn’t moving, I wasn’t going to class. It was just super chaotic.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Michelle Drake — So eventually I started to you know do some inner work and found some spiritual practices. And I even back back in the day, like in my mid-20s, I started a coaching practice because I had found some freedom, a little bit of freedom in like my food and exercise journey. But I was still very much in my own process. And I also didn’t know Jesus at the time.

Michelle Drake — But then im met Jesus And everything changed. And, um you know, within six months, six months, I was married. And then two years later, I had my first daughter, Daisy. And it was really becoming a mom that really brought everything into focus in a new way for my health in particular.

Michelle Drake — So I chose to have an unmedicated home birth. And I had this very like ideal, ideal picture.

Rich Birch — Right.

Michelle Drake — Idealized, I guess, kind of vision of like what I wanted it to be. So I really wanted to be like peaceful with worship music and, the sense of like calm and control. And of course, like it was absolutely nothing like that. It was beautiful, but I realized like I actually wasn’t in control of anything. And it was really intense and it was super primal and it was just far beyond anything that I was prepared for.

Michelle Drake — And but that was a really beautiful moment for me because somewhere like in within that process, I hit this point of like surrender. Like, okay, I can’t actually do anything here. I just have to like let go and let my body do this work. And so, yeah, I I realized that there was really nothing I could do to control what was happening. I just had to trust my body.

Michelle Drake — And it really struck me that this was my body doing something that I could not will my way through, but that it was really designed for. And, you know, it carried me through something that I could not do on my own.

Michelle Drake — And so that that experience, it shifted something in me. It made me realize, and this is a piece that I was missing, is that my body isn’t something to control or to punish, but really it’s something that God designed as a vessel. And it’s really how we become, you know, his hands and feet in the world.

Michelle Drake — And so, you know, after that point, I became like after birth and realizing like, okay, my body is designed as a vessel. Like it’s it’s actually God’s. So at that point, I became I began to bring more like intentionality into the way that I cared for my body.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Michelle Drake — And not from a place of obsession, but a place of stewardship. Yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s pretty cool.

Michelle Drake — Yeah. And so, you know, the result of that is feeling like the best that I’ve ever felt, more confident in the way that I take care of myself. And and actually that allows me to become more outward focused because, you know, my habits are sustaining my health in a way that supports how I can show up for my family.

Michelle Drake — And so, yeah, I just feel like, you know, I I feel the sense of God inviting me into something that I can like share my story to help other moms, you know, step into that same place of stewardship, like free from that shame or guilt.

Rich Birch — So good.

Michelle Drake — So yeah, that’s kind of, a sorry, that’s like a lot.

Rich Birch — No, no, it’s wonderful. Don’t apologize. That’s fantastic. I think that’s that’s great. Like the thing, um friends that listening in, obviously we talk to church leaders every week and trying to provide help. And, you know, I’m honored that you would take some time to be with us today for a couple of reasons.

Rich Birch — First of all, um you know when a allow we have a lot of executive pastors listening. And if I was to go and speak at a conference of executive pastors, maybe there’s 500 leaders in the room and 15 of them would be women. And they’re, unfortunately, in the minority.

Rich Birch — And then when I think about there’s like a thing I’m going to name publicly that I don’t think I’ve ever said publicly in whatever, 800, over 800 episodes. Like there’s I know on the staff teams that I’ve led that when I think about the people that I led, it was the moms that are like amazing leaders. They’re just incredible, like doing so much. And it’s like a secret hack. Find them a mom and they’ll get stuff done because they they have to.

Michelle Drake — Yes. Yes.

Rich Birch — And so today, I’m honored that you would help us kind of think help us think more critically on behalf of the moms on our teams and to think through you know, what we, you know, some, maybe some ways we should be leading. That’s the kind of conversation that we’re going to have here, friends that are listening in.

Michelle Drake — Yes. Totally.

Rich Birch — So when you think of the, you know, Christian moms…

Michelle Drake — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …you know, assuming that they’re Christians who are working for us on our teams as staff at church, which that should be the case.

Michelle Drake — Hopefully.

Rich Birch — What are some pressures that these people are carrying around them that especially as they’re you know, as their leaders, employers, that we maybe don’t see, that isn’t isn’t clear, that maybe isn’t on the surface? Because I look at moms and I’m like, those people are superheroes. They’re getting tons done. But what are some of those pressures that they might not see?

Michelle Drake — Yeah. I think that, you know, mental load is a huge thing for moms. You know, and depending on like what season of life that they’re actually in with their families and children, you know, they’re thinking about like scheduling appointments and like socializing their kids and, you know, how they even like want to educate their children. That’s a big conversation, like the Christian kind of sphere.

Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.

Michelle Drake — And then, you know, also what’s for dinner and doing laundry and organizing their homes and making time for friends and, you know, getting the kids and all these different activities and like, everything else that doesn’t really to a huge degree include themselves.

Michelle Drake — And, you know, oh ah then if we’re talking about women in ministry um and leaders on on ministry teams and they’re working outside the home. And then maybe that there’s this sense of guilt for like working outside the home and then, you know, not being home enough or not being at work enough or, you know, not contributing enough in the household or not contributing enough at work.

Rich Birch — Right.

Michelle Drake — And so like there’s there’s this tension of like, I feel like there’s this tension of moms um of like they’re doing so much and at the same time feeling like they’re still not doing enough. And so, you know, yeah, I just think like, and then and then also in the in this sphere of health, as it kind of falls to the back burner because they have all this going on in their heads of like…

Rich Birch — Other things happening. Yeah.

Michelle Drake — …all of these things is like, okay, well, and then there’s also this thing of like exercise and like eating healthy and how do I feed my kids healthy and how do I eat healthy and how do I feel good and exercise and look this certain way and, you know, it just a lot.

Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.

Michelle Drake — So these are some of the mental things that moms are carrying.

Rich Birch — Yeah, just a few of the things that are that are bubbling around.

Michelle Drake — Just a few of the things. Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know, it feels it feels like as a guy watching messaging that is pointed at moms particularly, women generally, but moms particularly, there’s like so much on the health front that…

Michelle Drake — Yes.

Rich Birch — …that runs pressure, you know, guilt, perfection.

Michelle Drake — Totally.

Rich Birch — It’s like tapping and and a negative emotion. Help us understand what does that do to someone over time? How does that, how does that impact the people on our teams?

Michelle Drake — Well, yes, I think that and definitely the culture, there’s like a lot of cultural messaging around health. For moms that’s rooted in like pressure and guilt and perfection. And over time, you know, instead of like health being a thing that is like supporting your life, it actually becomes something that like drains you. And I know because that’s like, you know, the exact kind of messaging that pulled me into the extremes and the extreme patterns in my own life.

Michelle Drake — And so, so much of what the world offers is really centered on either like aesthetics, like how you look or and this like hyper vigilant pursuit of like doing it perfectly. And, um you know, I think a both of those things carry a lot of shame and that’s really the world’s framework for health is like, you’re not doing enough and you’re not where you need to be, you know?

Michelle Drake — But again, like we just spoke about, like moms are already carrying so much and there’s, you know, not enough time or energy or mental space or even like finances, because that’s a huge thing now, like spending as much money as you can on your health and on the best foods to do health in the way that culture says that you’re supposed to do it.

Michelle Drake — You know, whether that’s like the hour long workouts or perfect, perfect meals and, you know, um buying all organic even and, you know, doing all the right things.

Michelle Drake — So the message underneath all that is like, if you’re not doing it all, you’re not doing enough. So, you know, I think a lot of moms believe that health is only really worth pursuing if it’s, you know, looking a certain way and doing a certain way. And if they can’t do it that way, then often, you know, they’re not doing it at all. It’s just far too overwhelming to even start.

Michelle Drake — Yeah. So, you know, I think that then the shame cycle kind of kicks in where like, you know they’re feeling behind. They’re feeling guilty about their bodies and about their habits and about not being more disciplined and because they can’t like live up to this cultural standard. And that creates this like inward spiral that actually pulls them away the presence with their families, the presence in their workplace, you know, that’s that really is what health should support.

Michelle Drake — So the thing that’s really supposed to become this like supportive mechanism for the rest of their life…

Rich Birch — Right.

Michelle Drake — …becomes another source of burden.

Rich Birch — So as a supervisor, like I want to create a culture where my team can thrive, where people have, you know, it’s it’s a great experience. And, you know, we’re obviously talking about moms specifically today. Like often without realizing it, I can imagine a world where work can become a negative force in that cycle that we’re talking about there. That actually just being a part of the kind of the pressure of that environment.

Rich Birch — And I don’t want that to happen. I want it to be a positive force. I want to create a kind of culture where like, where, you know, pro moms, moms can have a great experience. It’s a great, you know, it’s a great experience for them.

Michelle Drake — Yeah.

Rich Birch — What does that look like? How, what, what would be, how could you coach us, you know, to, to try to make this a kind of environment that particularly for moms could be, and even maybe particularly around these health issues, how do we make it a more positive environment for them?

Michelle Drake — So I guess the question, yeah like how do you support these moms and how do you create environments that supports these moms?

Rich Birch — Sure.

Michelle Drake — And, um you know, I think that the best place for leaders is not like about like jumping in and saving the day or something like that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Michelle Drake — Or like start like changing whole environments. But I think just like relational. I think that’s the first thing is just like understanding the weight that moms are carrying.

Michelle Drake — And because like, again, like moms in ministry are wearing those multiple hats are not only like the leaders and the employees, but they’re also wife and mom and homemaker, and they’re constantly shifting between them. So, you know, that’s a really heavy mental load, like we discussed. And yeah, so when you’re carrying that much, it’s really easy to kind of start believing that your value is tied to, you know, your productivity or how well you’re like, holding it all together.

Michelle Drake — And so, you know, like I know that because I’ve also lived that. And and there’s a season where I felt weighed down by so many, all these different responsibilities and felt like it all came down on me. And then if I dropped the ball, like everything would fall apart.

Michelle Drake — But I think the reframe here is like looking to what Jesus offers. And that is, you know, in Matthew 11, where he says, come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I’m gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls. And so I think like, I think that really creating a culture of rest and a culture and a rhythm of rest within these workplaces, within these ministry pursuits is like that rest isn’t like rest is encouraged and is part of, is part of the kingdom work and it’s not taking away from the kingdom work, but it’s actually how, you know, we are able to be filled and overflow into, you know, everything else that we’re supposed to do.

Michelle Drake — So I think like, I think that if leaders can really establish that rhythm for moms, because again, that’s not only going to benefit moms who already have so much, you know, to carry, but everybody else on the ministry team really is that, is that like rest is part of this. And that is, you know, abiding in Christ. Like when we can do that, like our priorities begin to shift. We begin to like lay down some of those heavy burdens and just making that, you know, really central to the mission is, yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Michelle Drake — Yeah. I think that’s, I think that’s really one of the greatest gifts that leaders can give to the moms and their team.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Rest in the midst of it. Yeah.

Michelle Drake — Yeah. Just a culture that consistently points them back to Jesus.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Michelle Drake — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. If if there was a mom on our my team who was running on empty, I feel like it’d be easy for me to miss the signals, that there would be like signals that are sent that and it could be… Listen, I like feel like I’m fairly in touch, but like maybe I’m just an idiot guy and I just don’t see it.

Rich Birch — What are you know those early warning signs that like, hey, maybe there’s something here that’s not going correctly that that, and and it might not be that like, hey, I’m like you say, it’s not my job to necessarily jump in and, you know, fix it. But it’s but, you know, we want to provide a a culture that can support women in the midst of that. So what would be some of those early signs that kind of we should pay attention to before it becomes a crisis?

Michelle Drake — Yeah, I think, so if there’s a woman who’s like, yeah, generally like quite engaged and then all of a sudden they’re starting to become a little bit more withdrawn or, you know, like a little bit less, whether it’s talkative or energetic or whatever within those settings, I think that’s a really good sign. um you know, and then also to like showing up physically, but and maybe not like emotionally invested into the mission. Maybe it’s taking longer to make decisions or, or, you know, decision-making becomes harder.

Michelle Drake — I think also to forgetfulness, like forgetting things. So if you notice like a mom, Oh, like I asked her to things. She’s not do, she didn’t do it. Like, and usually she does or ah overwhelmed by, you know, seemingly menial tasks.

Rich Birch — Right.

Michelle Drake — I think that’s things that she would normally handle. Well, I think that’s a good sign that maybe she’s carrying a little bit too much. Yeah. And, and, you know burnout, it doesn’t happen overnight. And I think that a lot of ah a lot of these signs are actually just like finally the physical manifestation of something that she’s been carrying for a while.

Rich Birch — Right. Been bubbling.

Michelle Drake — Yeah, so…

Rich Birch — Talk to us, at you know, from your perspective as a person who spends their days, like you said, you’re a Pilates instructor, you spend a large portion of your day helping people be active and stay active and do that in a healthy way, in a way that’s not, like you say, focused on the kind of negative reasons for that.

Rich Birch — Talk to us about the connection between being active, and this would really be for anyone, moms included, being active and dealing with stress, the stuff that’s going on in life. How are those two connected to each other?

Michelle Drake — Yeah, I think that they’re hugely, hugely connected. Because being active is like taking the time to be active and setting apart that time is, you know, is not only like you’re getting the physical benefits and and and the actual neurochemical benefits of that and of that activity. And but you’re also saying to yourself, like I deserve this time too.

Michelle Drake — Like I’m pouring constantly out into everyone else, into my ministry, into my family. And so setting apart this time for me is doing something good for myself. But that, that has like these reverberation effects on everything else that I do.

Michelle Drake — And so, um, yeah, I think that, sorry, I forget what the question was.

Rich Birch — No, it’s just what’s the connection between you know being active and dealing with stress?

Michelle Drake — Yeah.

Rich Birch — How do those two work together from your perspective as someone who helps people stay active?

Michelle Drake — Yeah. Yeah, I think also too, like just the the physical, like being physically active, there’s something like there’s like the psychosomatic thing where you can like be active and, and, and like get your heart rate pumping and sweat. And it’s like releasing something.

Michelle Drake — I don’t know what it is.

Rich Birch — Right.

Michelle Drake — But like, often too, we’re carrying stress in our body and and we can feel it in our body and we’re tense and stuff. So then when you’re able to, and I teach like hot Pilates, so you’re sweating a lot…

Rich Birch — Right.

Michelle Drake — …and you’re just like releasing all this. And, you know, and you see people get like so intense, like in the burpees and, and they’re just getting really into it. And, and you know, a line I often use is just like in those burpee moments, in those moments where it’s like really, really intense. I’m just like, I’m just saying like, let everything go that you do not need to carry anymore. Like let it go.

Michelle Drake — And I don’t know what it is about that, but yeah, something does release when we are moving physically and it just creates this like space of clarity. And I think also to like presence, like you’re so present when you are moving your body in like maybe an intense way, maybe a less intense way, but when you are like intentionally moving your body does require a sense of presence. And when you’re present, like, i don’t know, stress doesn’t really exist in the present.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, yeah. Right.

Michelle Drake — So I think it’s really beneficial in that way for sure.

Rich Birch — So true. Yeah. During COVID, I was one of those people that bought a Peloton and, and I’m over a thousand rides in love it.

Michelle Drake — Amazing.

Rich Birch — It’s like, it’s incredible. And I would say, it has changed my, my view on all of this.

Michelle Drake — Totally.

Rich Birch — Like I used to, I used to go to the gym and all that. And it was, but it was like a, I did it because it was like, I got to check the box. I got to do this. I know this is an important thing.

Michelle Drake — Yes. Yes.

Rich Birch — But I look forward to those experiences and the days I don’t do that, I can feel it. I’m not as sharp.

Michelle Drake — Yep.

Rich Birch — And, you know, and I don’t deal with stress as well.

Michelle Drake — Totally.

Rich Birch — And I’ve even joked with other friends. It’s like, don’t get me started talking about Peloton. You know, I’ve talked with other friends. I’m like, there’s something about, obviously they’ve, obviously spent a lot of time listening to their and instructors and it’s always positive. It’s always, you know, there’s, they’re, they’re not like, um, even though you’re working hard, there’s no, it’s never a negative. It’s always, you know, they’re always using positive reinforcement.

Rich Birch — And I’ve, I’ve joked with friends. I’ve said, listen, even just having 30 minutes in a day of someone telling me like, you can do this, like you, you got this, you know, is…

Michelle Drake — Totally.

Rich Birch — …cause there’s a lot of things in life where we don’t have that, you know, i don’t have that kind of…

Michelle Drake — Totally.

Rich Birch — …you know, reinforcement, which has been, it’s been transformative for me for sure.

Michelle Drake — Yeah, and I think in those moments too when you’re like working really hard like and you’re sweating and it’s in it you’re like, oh, man, I don’t know if I could go anymore. And you have that story playing in your head of like, I can’t do it.

Michelle Drake — But then somebody says, you can do it.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Michelle Drake — You’re like, okay, you’re you’re instantly being reframed.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Michelle Drake — Like, okay, in my head I said I can’t, but then this person is saying I can. So there’s like, yeah, that that instantaneous like kind of moment of like, oh, no, yeah, I am doing it actually. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Well, and it was, I’m the slow learner. I was hundreds, maybe four or 500 rides in before I realized this is actually mostly a mental thing than it is a physical thing.

Michelle Drake — Totally.

Rich Birch — Like I’m, it’s mostly between my, my ears where I’m like…

Michelle Drake — Yes.

Rich Birch — …you know, my body can keep going, but it’s in my head. I’m like, oh, OK, I’m done. I’m done. I just don’t want to keep going. And I never quit a ride, but you can you know, you can bail on a ride before you know you actually stop turning. And so, yeah, that’s interesting. That’s been an interesting journey for me, for sure, in a in a great way. And it and it for sure has helped me be better at what I do to be more show, you know, show up more in the rest of my life, for sure.

Michelle Drake — Yeah, that’s beautiful.

Rich Birch — So you actually built a podcast around this, which I think is exciting.

Michelle Drake — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And I’d love to hear us a little bit more about this. It’s called it’s called Health Habits for Christian Moms.

Michelle Drake — Yeah.

Rich Birch — We’ll put a link to it in the show notes, but tell us about the podcast. How you know how is it helping? What’s your heart behind it? I know as a podcaster, it’s a lot of work to pull the podcast together. So talk to me about the podcast.

Michelle Drake — Yeah. So, ah you know, Health Habits for Christian Moms is is really something that I felt drawn and into or invited into by the Lord, you know, after like what I told you with my story and everything like that. But it really exists because, you know, I see that this pattern from moms of like moms who like love God and love their families and want to take care of their health, but, you know, feel exhausted and overwhelmed and stuck in this all or nothing mentality. And so, you know, this podcast is for moms who like know that their health matters, but struggle to make it a priority in the middle of like all of those things that we talked about, all of the real life things.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Michelle Drake — You know, she’s busy. She’s carrying a lot of responsibility. And then and then I think a big thing is that she feels guilty taking that time away from herself, like away from every all the other responsibilities to put into her health, into herself.

Michelle Drake — So like instead of adding more pressure, like how the world would with with health, I am, my aim is to help this mom build simple, sustainable habits, you know, that fit into the season of life that she’s actually in, and honor all the responsibilities that she already has.

Michelle Drake — And I also really try to frame it in a biblical lens. So it’s not about like chasing a gut and like not about chasing perfection or, you know, not trying to earn worth through the way that we look or whatever it is. But but it’s about stewardship and caring and like really talking about like how do we care for the body God gave us. So that actually we can have more energy, more stamina, more capacity to serve the people that God has put in our life.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love it.

Michelle Drake — Yeah

Rich Birch — I would, give me a sense of what, you know, maybe a couple episodes, the kind of thing that you cover on the podcast.

Michelle Drake — So it’s it’s honestly mostly super practical tips.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Michelle Drake — So it would be super practical tips like meal planning, like how to do that in a way that’s ah not overwhelming, um how to get dinner on the table in 10 minutes in a way that’s like still healthy food, um you know, habit formation, 10-minute workouts, like things that are super applicable and immediately applicable to her life.

Michelle Drake — And then, but then also we’re talking about like these underlying issues and underlying struggles as well, whether it be like that guilt piece or the comparison piece, the people pleasing piece or believing, you know, that everyone’s, everyone else’s needs comes, comes first, comes above like her own needs.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Michelle Drake — And so, yeah, I think that’s that’s kind of how I I start with the practical. I lead with the practical. And then I’m sprinkling in that that encouragement of like reframing health into that biblical perspective.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, that’s fantastic. You know, what struck me about this, even in this conversation is like, this could be a great thing to hand off if I’m an executive pastor or senior leader type person in the church. Like, this could be a great thing to pass off to your team and say like, hey, here’s here’s a resource for you, you know. You’re doing a great job. You’ve got lots of health habits, healthy habits, you know, person on our team, people on our team, but like this might help. And here’s a, you know, here’s a link to it. That could be a great way to pass it along ah to, you know, just help ah the folks even to just acknowledge, hey, I understand that here’s some things that you’re, you know, you’re thinking about.

Rich Birch — So just as we’re kind of closing up today’s episode or thinking about, you know, bringing it down, you know, for a leader that’s listening in today who wants to do something this week to kind of take a first step to better support, particularly the moms on their team, what would you tell them? What advice would you give them that they could they could take a step this week to help support ah those and just incredible people on their teams?

Michelle Drake — I think intentional connection and conversation. And, you know, I think asking the mom on your team, you know, what is taking the most energy from her in this season? I think moms really thrive on, on like that, that kind of connection piece and sharing burdens.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Michelle Drake — And so I think, and and just listening to her and not trying to fix it, because I think that good leadership really starts with like, understanding your team in a relational way. So I would say that and and and trying to help kind of take off some of her burden simply just by listening, you know. And then um and then those other pieces of like creating cultures of of rest and and rhythms of rest is is really important. But something immediately applicable is just establishing like a relational, like truly caring conversation with with the mom on your team.

Rich Birch — So good. Super helpful. Well, we’ll link to Health Habits for Christian Moms in the show notes. We want people to go over there and check it out. Is there anywhere else we want to send people online to connect with you, to kind of follow with your journey? Where do we want to send people?

Michelle Drake — So definitely the podcast is the first the first place that I would send people. I am in the process of publishing my web website. So that will be published probably within the next week or so. I’m sure I would imagine that it’s going to take a while for this podcast to come out, but I don’t know what the timeline is.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Michelle Drake — But but yeah, people will be able to find me at my website as well.

Rich Birch — Great. What’s the address there?

Michelle Drake — So the address is michelledrake.co.

Rich Birch — Dot co. Great. Well, thanks, Michelle. I really appreciate being on today. So fun to connect over the internets for the podcast and all the best at Health Habits for Christian Moms. It was fun getting to know you a little bit more better today. Thanks so much.

Michelle Drake — Thanks, Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Spence Shelton, Lead Pastor of Mercy Church, a rapidly growing multisite church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Since launching in 2015, Mercy has expanded to multiple campuses while maintaining a relentless focus on reaching people, developing leaders, and sending them into ministry. In this conversation, Spence shares how churches can intentionally build a culture of multiplication by developing leaders from within, creating healthy sending pathways, and stewarding opportunities for church revitalization.

Bonus Download: The Mercy Church Lead Pastor Profile

In this episode, Spence Shelton walks through the framework Mercy Church uses to identify and develop future leaders, and he’s generously allowed us to share the actual document with unSeminary listeners. This one-page profile lays out the nine qualities Mercy looks for in a lead pastor, organized under three headings: character, competency, and calling. You’ll also find the three additional marks required for alignment with the Mercy Family of Churches. Use it as a starting point for building your own leadership profile, training your staff on what to look for, or figuring out who to shoulder tap next. [Click Here to Download]

To learn more about Mercy Church, visit mercycharlotte.com or follow Spence Shelton or the church on social media for additional leadership resources and updates.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe

Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, this week is a great conversation and was recommended by one of my favorite church leaders in the country. And so you’re going to love this conversation. It’s going to be super helpful. And I do think it’s going to challenge you and provide you some steps forward.

Rich Birch — Excited to have Spence Shelton with us. He is from Mercy Church, a multi-site church with three locations, if I’m counting correctly, in Charlotte, plus Church Online. God is leading Mercy Church into a season of a bunch of expansion and investment in ministry facilities and outreach over a two-year discipleship initiative called All to Him. They have a goal to launch the Mercy Family of Churches in in late 2025, which I think is maybe launched, or we’ll see where that goes, and is aiming to form their own collective within the next five years. Super excited to have you on the show today, Spence.

Spence Shelton — Man, such an honor to be with you, Rich. Man, this is, I’m a big, going to say it, I’m a big fan of yours, man…

Rich Birch — That’s kind of you to say.

Spence Shelton — …because you have produced so much helpful content for me as a leader to lean into and grow little by little. And I can only hope that I can contribute a little bit more to the great work you’ve been doing, man.

Rich Birch — Come on, that’s amazing. Honored to have you with us and to learn from you today, Spence. And mutual friend in Andrew Hopper…

Spence Shelton — That’s right.

Rich Birch — …who I love, fantastic leader. And so shout out to Hopper. Thankful for what God’s doing in his church as well. So Mercy Church started in 2015. Give us a picture of kind of where things are at today. If we were to come to the church, what would we experience? Kind of talk us through the last season, kind of the last couple of years. What’s that look like?

Spence Shelton — Yeah, man. So if you came to Mercy today, what you’d find is a church, you might be surprised to learn how big it actually is because the church is, you know, a couple thousand people, but it’s across seven services and three campuses. And there’s some of some of that’s intentional. Some of that is, hey, we’re just kind of following the Lord where he’s led in this. And we didn’t really plan for it, you know, so.

Spence Shelton — Our average service size is not that big, but we’ve the Lord’s been really gracious. If you came what you’d find is especially at our broadcast campus you’d find an old church building that you’d be thinking: wait are all these people how are they you know filling in here, you know.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — And you’d see cars parked uh all through a neighborhood and everything else and you’d see a retrofitted old church building, and that’s just the story of God’s grace on us – a building that was given to us and a church family that decided, hey we want to join you guys and they gave us their building. Really cool moment that like a legacy moment of faith in our church. And a couple other spots where we’re seeing similar sorts of things and it’s just it’s awesome, man.

Spence Shelton — So we feel blessed. We feel like we are um doing what God has called us to do because we’re seeing that kind of momentum in the ministry that we’re doing. But none of our facilities are going to wow you, I promise. I actually love training church planters because, you know, so many times they come in and they’re like, Oh, ah we can do this.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — I’m like, yeah, you can do it. You know?

Rich Birch — That’s normal like us.

Spence Shelton — So we are praying and asking the Lord for better wins. Yeah. But you can do it, man. If you can do it here, you can do it anywhere kind of thing. So Lord’s been really gracious to us. And it’s a, it’s been a real joy these past 10 years.

Rich Birch — It’s so cool. It seems like you guys are in a bit of a pivotal season or an inflection point season where you’ve got a bunch of things on the horizon, launching Mercy Family of Churches…

Spence Shelton — That’s right.

Rich Birch — …the 50 Missionary Goal by 2030, a collective. Talk me through those. What is the future look like? What’s driving the urgency? Help us understand kind of what the future looks like.

Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, I think this happens for any church, both leader and in just the life of a church. You come to those milestone moments. We hit it last year with 10 years, and it was not only a milestone in terms of age. There was some just real growth that had been happening to the church that was forcing some good conversations around long-term you know expansion so that we can continue to facilitate what we believe God, actually, I should say we could steward what God is doing in our church.

Spence Shelton — And so we launched an initiative that we called All to Him. I was teaching through the book of Romans all year last year. And so it comes out of Romans 12:1 and 2, because Christ gave his all for us, we give our all to him. That is our living sacrifice that we do.

Spence Shelton — And so we said, we got some goals as a church, man. We want to see our church, we got some reaching goals. We got some training up goals. We got some sending out goals. Because when I planted Mercy Church, one of the things that was on my heart: if we’re going to come to Charlotte, North Carolina, we were going to be a sending church. Which means we’re going to build a sending hub here where this thing’s going be like an aircraft carrier that just sends out missionaries all over the place into the battles that the Lord has for us across the world.

Spence Shelton — That was just on my heart. Instead of going to, you know, a place that might be, might have a, I don’t know, like a north Pacific Northwest or Northeast, something like that. If we’re coming to the Southeast to the Bible Belt, we’re doing so intentionally. Very intentional.

Spence Shelton — So that’s been on our heart um ever since day one and this All to Him initiative. You know, we were hoping that by 2030, we double the size of our church. That’s because Charlotte is growing by 150 people a day.

Spence Shelton — So like, we’ve got to, you know, this isn’t like it’s just because it’s something we want to do. It’s a calling, a good stewardship of the moment that we’re in. And we want to we’re launching a seminary certificate program for our members of our church because we want to train them up. Right.

Spence Shelton — And we got a goal to see 50 missionaries go on the mission field by 2030. We just planted a couple of weeks before the recording of this, we planted our next church here in Charlotte, and we’ve got plans for several more.

Spence Shelton — We are a large family of churches about to become a collaborative. We’re, we’re ah you know, 2028, 2029, somewhere around there, we’ll officially form that collaborative if the Lord continues to do what he’s doing. All because, man, we are convinced that God has brought us here to reach people, train them up, send them out, which I hope does not sound novel to any church leader listening to this.

Spence Shelton — I hope it just sounds like, yeah, man, that makes sense.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — It’s like, well, then what’s the the magic or what’s the the secret sauce? It’s just putting your hand to the plow. And now here we are 10, 11 years in, and we’ve been steadily doing that same work. And I think the Lord is, um you know, our buddy Andrew would use the flywheel. That’s his favorite version of that illustration. But you keep putting your hand to the same thing and eventually the Lord starts to bear fruit. And that’s what we’re seeing now.

Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. And yeah, you know that and you’re a kind leader, you know that for some leaders, the reason why we’re talking to you today is unfortunately, that is more novel than it should be. And so we want to dig into that a little bit.

Spence Shelton — Sure..

Rich Birch — Particularly, let’s maybe start with that middle section, this training goals, you’re working on trying to train people up. When you’re thinking about the kind of leadership vision you have as a church, you’re thinking about, hey, we’re going to raise up leaders both you know here to and then also sending.

Rich Birch — I think we we can fall into this dichotomy around, okay, so do we find these leaders from other places and attract them to come here? Or, do we grow them up internally?

Rich Birch — Do we find a way to develop them internally? So it’s this idea of plucking talent rather than developing it. Talk to me through why is training so hard in so many churches? Why do we struggle with that? And we seem to default towards, let’s just find somebody from over there and have them come and help us here.

Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, I think that mentality starts all the way down to the idea of reaching people that don’t know Christ versus just sheep swapping from one church to the other church. Right.

Spence Shelton — So you can grow your church by transfer growth. Um, which I actually am one who, Hey man, if somebody on the sideline in one church and then they plug into your church, I I’m all for it And if the same thing happens with Mercy, all for it.

Spence Shelton — But our aim, what we all know as pastors and ministry leaders is our aim is man, let’s reach lost people and then disciple them. Right.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Spence Shelton — The same thing I think should be true with leadership development. For some reason, when it comes into developing leaders, we tend to go a different direction and think, well, let’s just go find where some leaders are and get them to to plug in.

Spence Shelton — It’s like, we don’t do that even with discipleship. Why are we switching our mindset? And so I want to just kind of, I have to, I was convicted and wanted to call our church and I would call others to the same mindset that you have with discipleship. Let that carry over into your leadership and your leadership development as well.

Spence Shelton — And I think that’s how we’re going to grow, just as how we’re going to grow the kingdom by reaching lost people, how we’re going to grow the leaders in the kingdom, the number of leaders we have, it’s going to be developing them in our church. And I just… I don’t know that we’re even thinking that way and asking the question, is the guy who’s a 27-year-old physical therapist in my church, has anybody ever bothered to tap him on the shoulder and ask, hey, man, could God be calling you into ministry?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — Because I watch you and no we’re not doing the shoulder tap, man. And so um right now, I just I love it. Just a little bit of the story of our church…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Spence Shelton — …our executive both of our executive pastors and two of our three campus pastors were all in the marketplace. One of our executive pastors was in banking. Another was a plant manager. We have two campus pastors who were both, I use physical therapists because they’re both former physical therapists. And you know, we’re sitting there having these conversations.

Spence Shelton — You know what makes a great pastor is someone who has sat with person after person told them, hey, you should do this to feel better. And then they come back to you later and say, hey, I don’t feel better. And you say, did you do the thing I told you to do? And they say, no. And you say, well, you should have done that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — And a patient, long suffering physical therapist turns out to be a great pastor, but somebody’s got to tap him on the shoulder and say, hey, man, I think God might be calling you into this. And so my my encouragement to anybody who’s a in ministry right now, kind of in that leadership development role, and you’re like, I don’t know, we’re gonna have to go outside to find some talent.

Spence Shelton — I promise it’s going to take longer the way I’m talking about. But if you will seek the Lord, ask the Lord, and then start shoulder tapping and giving some opportunities for guys to lead, for men and women to lead there in your ministry and whatever the leadership roles might be, I think there might be more people in there than you realize. Because I believe that God provides for the church that he’s growing, that he’s called you to lead.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.

Spence Shelton — And so I think the same thing is true with leaders as well.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I love that. And I you know I love the even the vision for, hey, maybe there are some people within your church. We see this statistically, like even if you’re thinking about campus pastors, 9 out of 10 campus pastors are coming from within, which means we’ve got which means we’ve got to get good at this.

Spence Shelton — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And yeah, if your church has any kind of unique slant on the world, you’ve got to find people who have come up through that culture to ah to ultimately push that culture forward.

Spence Shelton — Yes.

Rich Birch — I love this this marketplace to ministry transition. How do we help people do that? That’s a real key transition. I would imagine on your end, you’ve got to help connect the dots for somebody. I love that there, how you even with the physical therapist, we’re able to connect the dots between, hey, here’s what you’re doing. Let me talk to you about the kind of role that we’re thinking about. How do you make that transition? Have you developed anything to try to help make that, you know could you know, connect those dots for people as you’re having those conversations?

Spence Shelton — Yeah, I would say we don’t I don’t have a conversational map that I’m doing.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Spence Shelton — I don’t have that yet, though I think that’s just like many things, trial and error, and I’m still in the still cooking to formulate that map.

Spence Shelton — But what I do have that we’ve worked through with our staff is something we call, it’s interesting, we actually call it the lead pastor profile.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Spence Shelton — The reason we call the lead pastor profile is because everything we’re doing, we’re building towards, developing towards planting more churches. And you’ve got to have a lead pastor to go and plant those churches.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Spence Shelton — Now, the thing is actually when you when you look at it, it’s actually just a ministry leader profile, you know?

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — Everything on there, but there may be a couple of things that are nuanced specifically to lead pastors, but it’s kind of like when you go into Timothy and you see what are the characteristics of an elder? Well, every single one of them is just a good Christian, except then you got this thing able to teach. You know what mean?

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Spence Shelton — So it’s a similar thing is like most of our profile, nine points on it and divided into three buckets, it’s mostly just what makes a good ministry leader. Well, then what I’m doing is what we are doing is we’re taking that and we’re training our whole staff through it and saying, Hey, here’s what we are looking for. Here’s what we’re trying to develop. And then here’s everything. So I do a training monthly with our staff on these points.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — And then I do it and I say, yeah, I have to verbally say it, never underestimate or never overestimate, I guess just that it’s going to happen without you saying it, always say what you want them to do, you know, just good old preaching point there. But man, Hey, I want you guys to take what I’m teaching you and go teach your volunteers.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — And go teach those that. And I want you to teach your leaders. And then I want your leaders to be able to teach them. And if it doesn’t work, I want you to come back and tell me so that we can get better at making this a multiplying thing. Right.

Spence Shelton — So we just got to have a lot of checks and balances along the way. So we’re hopefully training. And it took a while to pull this together in a way that it makes sense to all of us. And now that we’re kind of running it, we can see the value in it of, hey, this is what we’re looking for. And now you can go shoulder tap and say, I know what I’m looking…So the the kids director can go, I know what I’m looking for.

Spence Shelton — Now I can go and start shoulder tapping because I know what, you know what i mean? Now that know what I’m looking for, it’s…

Rich Birch — Totally.

Spence Shelton — Those are probably the the beginnings of a conversational map to to walk somebody through, but at least you know what you’re looking for. You can start to have those conversations. And if you have the relational equity, those conversations can really go somewhere.

Rich Birch — Love it. I’d love to double click on that. I love this lead pastor profile idea. I think working to get the clarity I think is in is a great, you know, a great task for all of us to wrestle through.

Rich Birch — We think, well, we want to develop our leaders, but then we don’t have any definition of what do we mean by a leader, like at its more most basic level.

Spence Shelton — Yes.

Rich Birch — So we don’t need to get into all nine, but are there a couple of them that are either counterintuitive or maybe we miss, or you find yourself coming back to time and again, that are like real dividing points or like ones that kind of stick out to you in the in the framework?

Spence Shelton — Yeah. All right. So obviously all nine matter to me or I wouldn’t have had them all. So I’ll do my best.

Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.

Spence Shelton — I’ll do my best.

Spence Shelton — So we divide him into three buckets, character, competency, and calling. So each one of those has three points under it. And I’ll click on one of them, maybe in each, and you can tell me if you want to go further.

Rich Birch — Sure. That’s great. Yeah.

Spence Shelton — But in character, the one that I find to be the most overlooked is self-awareness.

Rich Birch — So true.

Spence Shelton — I find that to be the most overlooked characteristic of a good leader is one who is aware of their strengths and aware of their weaknesses and is settled in their identity in Christ so that their weaknesses don’t crush them.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — You know, they can instead build a team around them, you know. Because the classic thing with a lead pastor is to say, well, I’m good at vision and bad at details. It’s like, OK, man, maybe we need to do something a little more thoughtful than that, because that resonates with me for sure…

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Spence Shelton — …that you ask the guys around me for sure. But what what? what about are you better at vision casting or vision creating? And what are the evidences of that in your ministry? You know, so for me, I’m better at vision casting than I am vision creating. That’s probably my my 9 to 10 is actually sharing it.

Spence Shelton — But I got to have some help and and love having help in the other side of that. And so there are plenty of other things like that. But when we have someone who’s not aware of their strengths and weaknesses, usually that’s that’s like a stop point for us.

Spence Shelton — And so if we’ve got someone we think, oh, man, they they come across because here’s the thing. Unless you have these points, somebody will can make a great first impression and a lot of long term damage in your ministry.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — Not because they have bad intent, but because they’re not aware of what they’re… And you give them a lot of responsibility and maybe they’re not actually, they don’t have the eyes of Jethro in Exodus 18 to know how to build out a ministry.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Spence Shelton — You just thought they did because they gave off a good first impression.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — So that’s my biggest biggest one in that character, or not biggest one, but that’s a key one, I think, in the character is…

Rich Birch — Right. A key one that sticks out.

Spence Shelton — …man, are you self-aware? And so whatever we use, we love different, whether it’s the personality assessments, leadership assessments, but we also, and we just, we wanna develop from within because that gives us the ability to see.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — We can see what their strengths and weaknesses are.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Spence Shelton — Because we’ve had people eyes on them for months and years and you can’t really trade that out.

Rich Birch — Yeah, and character takes a long time of up-close observation to really get a sense of where where people are at.

Spence Shelton — Yes.

Rich Birch — Because, and you know we know this is, this is you know we don’t have to think long. There are lots of examples of leaders who—and all look great—but there’s like a 2% you know, problem in their character that ended up showing itself in the most kind of ugly of ways.

Spence Shelton — That’s right.

Rich Birch — So I know all nine are super important. I get that. appreciate that. But we can’t be here for three hours. So competency, what was what’s one in there that that that tends to say we’re just trying to whet people’s appetite to kind of help them think through it a little bit.

Spence Shelton — Yeah, man. For competency, the one that I would, the the one that, yeah, that spend a lot of time on when it comes to competency, what I would say is the multiplier.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — I want someone who is a proven multiplier before I move them into an increased um level of leadership and responsibility. I want to see it, man. And if we, otherwise, again, what I’m trying to weed out is someone that talks a good game or someone that just has a, there may be someone I think a lot of leaders that might actually be really strong in the gift of hospitality have found themselves in the arena of administration simply because they are, like generous, kind, easy to talk to people. And they’re great. You want to be around them. They’re probably encouragers, that kind of thing.

Spence Shelton — And it’s like, wait a minute, have they multiplied? Do they actually understand what it takes…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — …to take someone from leading self, to use the old Ramsharan leadership pipeline, from leading self to leading others, have they actually, do they understand what it takes?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Spence Shelton — And do they understand what it takes to go from leading others to leading leaders? And have they, let’s let’s just look behind them. If you wanna go the the Bible route, you just take 2 Timothy 2:2…are they able to train up faithful teachers who can then teach others also? That to me is, especially when we get into who’s going to go out and plant a church…

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — …and I’m not sending somebody out that’s not a builder. Another way to say multiplier would be builder, but I say multiplier because I’m specifically thinking around leadership and leading those who will lead others.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Spence Shelton — If we want to build a movement of churches for the sake of the glory of God, and we want these churches to go and continue to build, there’s got to be multipliers leading this.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Spence Shelton — You know, gotta be. So when it comes to competency, that’s like a a deal breaker for me for who we’re going to send out the plant. And so I want to develop it starting in our student ministry, you know, and working our way through or starting in our college ministry, working our way through.

Spence Shelton — I don’t want to wait until we just try to, otherwise we’ve got to go pluck out from the, you know, ether, somebody that we hope is a multiplier. And I don’t want to do that. I’d rather raise them up.

Rich Birch — Well, and we see this temptation in churches when they get to, say, 1,000, and then they’re they’re growing you know they’re they’re eyeing 2,000 beyond. There’s a there’s a dangerous temptation that can come in, particularly for our staff teams. I know we’re talking broader than just staff teams, but particularly for our staff teams, we can ah we can forget the Ephesians 4 call to equip others to to ministry.

Spence Shelton — That’s right.

Rich Birch — And we just become doers. We hire doers rather than multipliers…

Spence Shelton —Yes.

Rich Birch — …because they get stuff done. And we’re like, oh man, they’re solving problems for us. But that is can then erode a church long-term very quickly. I’ve seen that so many times where they end up with, you know they slow down.

Spence Shelton — That’s right.

Rich Birch — They’re like, why are we slowing down? It’s well, because you’ve stopped multiplying. You’ve stopped doing what we’re called to do. I love that.

Rich Birch — So then the third category calling anything in there that would, that steps that kind of is similar. Again, I know all nine are are really important, but, but any of those that that kind of jumped to the, to the front.

Spence Shelton — Maybe I’ll give you one that has we’ve learned through some some painful trial and error,

Rich Birch — Okay. Sure.

Spence Shelton — And that is, we call it alignment. And what we mean by that is: as you develop a leader, when it comes to their long-term place in your church and leading maybe even beyond your, so in our case, beyond our church to going in and leading ah a church that’s going be a part of the family of our churches, it’s really important that not only are they theologically aligned, but they are philosophically aligned in terms of how we do church.

Spence Shelton — So no shade on any other way of doing church. What I’m saying is so that we can continue to be united in one voice internally, so at Mercy Church with how we do discipleship, and then so that we can be united in how we can help and train one another as a family of churches, we got to be aligned not just around our theological convictions, but on our ministry convictions, how we do it.

Spence Shelton — I would say to those of you out there who have a promising young leader, but it seems like they just don’t want to do, they want to change your church into their, a different kind of church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — The best thing you can do is set them free.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Spence Shelton — And I don’t mean like, that’s not like code for firing, by the way, that genuinely that genuinely is like, help them find a way, an off ramp to whatever it is they sense God calling them to. If they’re not, you know, they might be just, they need more season of development. That might be all it is. But when it comes to appointing people towards and, and, setting people into key leadership. So take an elder role at Mercy Church, community group coaching, shepherding, that kind of thing where you’re in now, you are shaping, not just participating. You’re really shaping the DNA of our church.

Spence Shelton — We’ve got to be aligned with what we’re doing. It also makes for a much more enjoyable experience. I’m not saying we’re not thinking. We’re always thinking over here about how to do it better and trying to be faithful and everything else.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Spence Shelton — Of course. But I’m saying, man, you want to feel like you’re locked arm and arm going together. And when conviction comes that goes a separate way, it’s like best to separate. So we’ve we’ve learned that the kind of the hard way. I think a lot of lessons are hard.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Spence Shelton — And so I offer this as our missions pastor likes to say, we have paid some dumb tax.

Rich Birch — True.

Spence Shelton — And so wherever we can save another person from paying it, we’d love to do that for you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. and And yeah, I think alignment’s a massive deal and and calling it out. And I would think being in a church that is um so focused on sending, you’re you’re hoping that that’s a big part of what’s kind of the outcome of the church.

Spence Shelton — That’s right.

Rich Birch — That, you know, having an an outlet for that sending in a way that makes the most sense. Hey, here’s a leader who seems to have the skills and, you know, and and and then you can celebrate, hey, they seem to have some unique ideas that they want to go and see happen somewhere else.

Spence Shelton — Yes. Yes.

Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. Rather than having to like fight that. I think that’s cool. That’s really good.

Rich Birch — So, you know, help me ah pick this apart a little bit. So one of the interesting things I find in this whole kind of leadership pathway, leadership pipeline conversation is there are, so I think we all can be influential. I think in one way we are all called to be leaders, but not necessarily everyone that we’re discipling is necessarily going to be a lead pastor. They’re not all necessarily going to.

Rich Birch — Now I understand we’re kind of discipling towards that, but help me understand what are you doing internally with folks that you’re like, I just, they’re just not going to make that jump eventually. How do you have that conversation? I know that’s a hard conversation. What does that look like?

Spence Shelton — Right.

Rich Birch — Or am I just looking at this wrong? Which could be the case too. Happy to be wrong. Help help me think through that.

Spence Shelton — Well, we’ve got to have some freedom that comes from distinctive categories. This will help us a great deal. Helps me in pastoring a great deal.

First, we got to have the category of spiritual gift. The Lord has given everyone a spiritual gift…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Spence Shelton — …and we got to celebrate that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — And we got to be careful not to turn the leadership pipeline into, or that concept of leader development, turn that into a a grading of gifts. Like you’ve got a, you know, you’re, you need to graduate from one gift. Maybe that’s a better way to say it. Graduate from one gift to the other, to the other. It’s like, no, no, no.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — What we’re not talking about is graduating out of your gift set. God has given you that. And the best thing for you and for his church is to get really good at how he’s given you or how he’s gifted you.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — And when we when we conflate those, when we only talk about just you know getting better, it’s like, man, we got to watch out. Instead, let’s say, how can we get better at the giftings God has given us so that we can steward it really well?

Spence Shelton — And then we find ourselves able to say, and when it comes to leadership, and here we are as church leaders, we’re now inside of a category. We’re inside of a category of leadership. And how can we develop leaders who are gifted by God as leaders? Well, the good news is maybe take some pressure off everybody, you’re not really going to know if someone’s gifted in leadership until you let them try to lead.

Rich Birch — True, yes.

Spence Shelton — So you got to let them try to lead, man. And then as they lead and you give them a couple of swings, two, three, four, whatever, and you coach them along the way, hey, here’s what we’re looking for in a leader. Here’s how you can grow from leading self leading others. Take the pressure off.

Spence Shelton — This might be how God has gifted you, we don’t know. But the best way to see, based on what we’ve seen so far, is to let you try. So here’s a community group, and here are the things you’re gonna need to be a good community group leader, and we’re gonna coach you and support you.

Spence Shelton — Let’s go. And let’s see what the next six months brings, right?

Rich Birch — Yep, that’s great.

Spence Shelton — Hey, this went really well. We wanna take you out of this community group leader seat and put you in as a coach. Now there’s a different set of skills you’re gonna need to be a coach, but man, it seems like your people responded to your leadership. What do we think about you as a coach?

Spence Shelton — Each set of the way, man, do I have the, the way I always say it to our staff—they’re sick of me saying this, so it’s great to talk to you because…

Rich Birch — I’m not sick of it. Yeah.

Spence Shelton — …[inaudible] fresh person to say this too—is that clarity in expectations creates confidence in execution. The clearer you are with what you are asking someone to do, the more confident they will be in doing it. Another way to say it.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — So that’s just my my big thing there on on this. Let’s get over now that we’re, and what we’re going to find is some people are going to lead a community group faithfully for 20, 30 years at our church.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Spence Shelton — Praise the Lord. What we can’t see is that we can’t see that a failure.

Rich Birch — No.

Spence Shelton — Others are going to lead for six months to two years. And we’re going to man, this, this person’s a leader and, and we’re seeing it. They already, they’re planting.

Spence Shelton — I had someone come up to me the other day at church and tell me, Hey man, I just wanted to tell you, we’re so excited. You challenged me about five years ago to lead a community group. And we just planted our fifth group. And I went, like I went, I was, my mind went so far. I didn’t even have time to be, to be celebrating.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — Cause I was like, does anybody know that there’s a guy out here…

Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Who’s just cranking out groups.

Spence Shelton — …with the with an apostolic gift just planting groups every year what’s going so so.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great.

Spence Shelton — I was like hey, but so that that was a a great moment the Lord gave me just of, hey this is this is going really well and there will be some that will lead a group and things won’t go well and they won’t go well and you’ll keep trying different efforts. So to my community group leader friends, hey once someone tries and tries and tries, would you maybe tap their shoulder and say hey can we try something else. You know.

Rich Birch — Good.

Spence Shelton — Like you are not a failure. We just got to find the gift that God has given you.

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — And the more that’s in the conversation of your church, that’s in the atmosphere of your church—We’re just looking for the way God’s gifted you. And we’re going to try and make you the best you can be at how he’s gifted you.—The easier the conversation is going to be of, I don’t think it’s community group leadership. I don’t think it’s this. I don’t think it’s that. Because we have a culture of, Hey, trial and error, you know?

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. That’s so good. I love that. And I love this has been a great kind of look under the hood of this whole multiplication issue. I think a lot of church leaders out there have the desire. They have the like, oh, we, man, I would love to be a church that has that kind of vision. But then what are the mechanics underneath of that? How do we actually do that?

Spence Shelton — Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Super helpful. Pivoting in this totally, well, it’s a related but different direction. Your church has been involved in a number of revitalizations. You talked about on the you know top end, you had a you know facility given to you. And I this is like a super inappropriate, with just a few minutes left, curveball to throw in there. What’s your shorthand thing for us to learn about that?

Rich Birch — You know that we’ve seen, particularly from a multisite point of view, this area has grown hugely in the last 10 years. It was 10 years ago, 5% of new campuses came about because multiple revitalization. The most recent study showed showed it was 40%.

Spence Shelton — Wow.

Rich Birch — I suspect Warren’s out talking right now. I suspect the number is even going to be higher. What are the few things that you’ve learned about, you know, those kinds of conversations and relationships that have allowed it to work for you? And it’s been helpful. It’s been a joy giving part of the story at Mercy. Talk us through that.

Spence Shelton — I’m going to do so using another point in my lead pastor profile just to have some fun here.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Spence Shelton — So one of the things we look for in a leader is confident humility.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Spence Shelton — Confident in terms of, man, they believe God has called them to something. You know there’s a there’s a settled confidence there. But the humility to be patient and wait on the Lord and see what he has and to consider others, Philippians, to consider others more important than yourself. Right? This matters a great deal when it comes to this area of revitalization.

Spence Shelton — What a leader needs to know that there’s this temptation, and I had it, of why would you not give us your church building?

Rich Birch — Right.

Spence Shelton — Things are going well for us and struggling for you. Why would you not do that?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Spence Shelton — Well, it’s that there’s an unintentional, I’m call it a holy ambition that may be a little bit creating some blinders. Okay, let’s use the positive side of that. The the negative side would be there’s some arrogance there.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.

Spence Shelton — But the positive would be holy ambition. But what you gotta know is, man, often these facilities that are housing these churches, the ones that are remaining, a lot of the times that there are people that have been there for decades and for a generation or two, and they put blood, sweat, tears and money into where they are.

Spence Shelton — And we had to take the the approach of slow by my standards, still fast by theirs…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Spence Shelton — …slow by my standards. Conversation after conversation that began with , in both of these cases, began with the church that needed revitalizing coming to us. We didn’t go to them.

Spence Shelton — They came to us and said, hey, we’re trying to figure out what’s next. We hear you might be able to help. How can you help?

Spence Shelton — And we had to present them. We had to consider that a stewardship process. of a kingdom resource, not a how do we advance the name of Mercy Church.

Spence Shelton — And so it’s happened two different ways for us right now. One is a campus of our church. You know, we it took months and months, but they wound up voting to hand us the keys, join our congregation, and we held their hand the whole way through. And it was a really beautiful thing. And it’s where our broadcast campus meets today.

Spence Shelton — There’s another one that happened where we decided the best thing was for that to be a, because of the neighborhood it’s in in East Charlotte, to be a church planting incubator where we could plant a church every 18 months to two years.

Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah.

Spence Shelton — And so that’s what we’re doing right now. And there’s a church plant in there. And that was the best stewardship of that building. And after the conversation with their people, but we kind of, we basically put that with them and say, I had a lot of lunches and dinners that I just I’m going to tell you, if you want to get into this game and you want to do it in a way that’s going to honor the Lord, you got to be ready for the patient handholding that I would say is honoring a legacy of faith these folks are are taking.

Spence Shelton — In many ways, the greatest step of faith taken in our church has been a couple of other churches handing us keys…

Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.

Spence Shelton — …to something that the Lord was an outpost for the gospel at one point. And now in both of those cases for us and in the others that we’re starting to see that are still too soon for me to talk about, it’s just, man, now there’s an outpouring happening in both of those places. And you got like, man, there’s a couple of folks that are from the original congregation of what is now our, where our broadcast campus now is. And they, they, they’re greeters. They have tears more mornings than they don’t on Sunday mornings.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Spence Shelton — It’s beautiful, man.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it is.

Spence Shelton — I mean, they’re all in. They are way bigger fans of Mercy Church than I am. And I’m the lead pastor of the church.

Rich Birch — Yes, right.

Spence Shelton — You know what I mean? And they just, they are like, they love, because what they actually are is they, they took a step of faith, a huge step of faith, trusting the Lord. And the Lord has blessed them and renewed a a vigor in their ministry.

Spence Shelton — I saw a couple of them, mid 80s, and it was about 11 a.m. weekday and they were leaving the church building. I was pulling up. I just put windows down. Hey, what are you doing? It’s like, well, we just finished prayer walk in the neighborhood a couple of times…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Spence Shelton — …and it’s getting too hot now. We’re going inside. And I’m like, these are the people I want, man.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Spence Shelton — Like just they’re retired and they have chosen they’re going their day prayer walking. It’s like, well, you told us to pray. And I’m like, yeah. Yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Yeah, that’s incredible.

Spence Shelton — Thank you for leading the way you have the time and this is what you do with it. So, man, there are if if all we see is just, Oh a facility to advance my cause. And we miss what has actually been the sweetest thing for our church has been our very young church got some grandparents.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Spence Shelton — It’s beautiful, man. Beautiful.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good.

Spence Shelton — So that’s just a little bit I learned from that ah from those couple of runs we’ve had.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And yeah, that underlines, so it’s definitely the majority—I think it’s three quarters, if I remember the most recent statistics on these sort of revitalizations—are coming about because the joining church is coming to the lead church, not the other way around.

Spence Shelton — That’s right. That’s right.

Rich Birch — And so you have to position yourself in a way that that confident humility is a great kind of benchmark to be thinking about, friends. How do we you know hold ourselves in a way that we’re here to serve other people, we’re here to care for them in a way. And I say to church leaders when we talk about these things, I’m like, you have to handle these relationships well enough so that then they’ll tell other people, hey, wow, we loved working with Mercy Hill.

Rich Birch — Man, there we love working with Mercy Church. Well, we love working with mercy Mercy Hill too.

Spence Shelton — Sure. That’s right.

Rich Birch — We love working with Mercy Hill, Mercy Church, too many Mercies. Wow, what a great you know interaction that was been. And wow, that’s a life-giving thing.

Spence Shelton — That’s right.

Rich Birch — And I loved that. That is what ultimately we’ll see more of these happen long-term. Not because you did some, you know, so too many people have these like, You know, like they use merger and takeover and like this kind of aggressive language, which just doesn’t help in the conversation at all.

Spence Shelton — No, it doesn’t help at all. Yeah, that’s exactly right. You got to have that humility. And if somebody’s sitting there wondering, okay, man, well, how do I how do I wait on that without, I want to go get it. I want to get started. I’d say two or three things to do if you’re looking and you believe your church might be a good church candidate for helping another church revitalize, whether that’s being a campus of yours or or something to that effect.

Spence Shelton — I’d say first start praying and asking the Lord. And that if you’re not fasting, then you’re not praying yet.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it.

Spence Shelton — So I don’t want to hear that you’re praying if you’re not fasting on this. Secondly, man, this is why networks matter. So I would say whatever your denomination or stream is, whatever, however you’re kind of tied to other churches in your community. If you have no relationships with other churches in your community, and then you want to go and be the revitalizer, that’s going to come, that’s probably going to come across a certain way.

Spence Shelton — So There are a number of—years and years and years—of meetings that I’ve gone to, conversations I’ve sat in, in order to genuinely try to say, how can we help? How can we help?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Spence Shelton — Whether that’s sending a worship leader to go serve at a church one Sunday morning or helping one church with a a building fundy kind of like thing they got to upfit or something, you know.

Spence Shelton — Basically, I’m trying to be a team player in the Kingdom here in our little corner of the world in Charlotte. And then that’s going to earn the respect and the trust for when those conversations can happen in the relational network, those conversations can happen.

Spence Shelton — So I am one who just in my nature, I do not like meetings. I don’t like them.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Spence Shelton — They feel like necessary evils.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Spence Shelton — And I’m trying to get better about that. But they are actually what I do love and value is trust and relationships. And again, confident humility. I have to be more about the Kingdom than I do about my own church. And a rising tide lifts all boats, you know.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, this been a great conversation today, Spence. I really appreciate that. And thanks for going with me there with that little you know detour at the end.

Spence Shelton — Of course, the joy.

Rich Birch — That was fantastic. But anything you’d love to share just as we wrap up today’s conversation?

Spence Shelton — I would say too—I don’t know what’s spurring this, but something that has helped me so much in my ministry to the leader out there, especially the young leader, but maybe to all of them—you will always overestimate what you can do in five years and you will drastically underestimate what you can do in 20.

Rich Birch — That’s so true.

Spence Shelton — And there maybe a way to say it is you will overestimate what God will do and underestimate what God will do. So this is a little plug of me saying, stay the course, stay the course where you’re at. The Lord is going to do a work in honor of your faithfulness to the work. Stay in it, man. Stay in it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Just to add to that, I’m doing some research on working on a book on churches that break the 2000 barrier. And one of the interesting telltale signs are senior leaders and senior leadership teams that have been in the same church or the same community for 20 plus years.

Spence Shelton — There you go.

Rich Birch — So going into their third decade, it just takes time.

Spence Shelton — There it is.

Rich Birch — You know, it’s not it’s it’s not you know’s not overnight.

Rich Birch — Well, I really appreciate this. This has been a great a great conversation. Spence, if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?

Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, you can go to probably social media is the the day and age that we live in. So @SpenceShelton is my social media handle. It’s Instagram and and those kind of things. Our church is just @MercyCharlotte. And you can go on our website, mercycharlotte.com. Find everything you need there.

Spence Shelton — We’re launching a podcast. Praise God, let’s go. You can find all of it, though, just through our Instagram handles, which is usually a good first landing point for folks. And however we can help, man, feel free to reach out. Nothing super shiny about what we got going on over here, but we love being in the game for the Kingdom. However we can help.

Rich Birch — All the best as you serve in Charlotte. Thanks so much, man.

Spence Shelton — Thank you, brother.

Leadership failures rarely happen overnight. More often, they begin with unseen pressures, unresolved pain, and unhealthy patterns that slowly erode a leader from the inside out. In this special compilation episode, we bring together four candid conversations with experienced church leaders who openly share the personal struggles that nearly derailed their ministries.

Rather than focusing on leadership strategies or organizational systems, this episode explores the inner life of church leaders. From burnout and unprocessed grief to stress management, character formation, and radical honesty before God, don’t miss the lessons that can help you build healthier, more sustainable ministries. Use these conversations as discussion starters with your teams, asking not simply how the ministry is doing, but how the leaders themselves are doing.

Bob Riedy reflects on the burnout that brought his ministry to a halt and the painful realization that decades of accumulated loss had never been properly grieved. The death of a family member, staff transitions, declining attendance after COVID, fractured relationships, and personal shame all compounded over time because he kept pushing forward instead of processing what he had experienced. His story is a powerful reminder that even successful leaders are vulnerable when they ignore the emotional weight of ministry.

Key Takeaway // Pastors experience constant loss, but simply “moving on” isn’t resilience. Healthy leaders intentionally process grief with God before it silently grows into burnout, anxiety, or shame.

Listen to the Full Episode // Burnout, Breakthrough, and the Road to a Healthier Ministry with Bob Riedy (May 29, 2025)

Charles Stone shares practical neuroscience-backed habits that help leaders reduce stress and remain emotionally healthy. Rather than offering complicated solutions, he begins with something every leader can practice immediately: intentional breathing. By slowing the body’s stress response through simple breathing exercises, pastors can create space to think clearly, regulate emotions, and respond wisely during difficult seasons.

Key Takeaway // Resilience isn’t built during a crisis. It’s developed through consistent daily practices. Simple rhythms like intentional breathing can help pastors lower stress before it becomes overwhelming.

Listen to the Full Episode // Leading Through Stress Without Burning Out with Charles Stone (July 3, 2025)

Allen Holmes explains that gifted leaders often reach a defining crossroads when crisis exposes weaknesses beneath their talent and experience. Every leader eventually faces a moment when they must decide whether to hide behind their abilities or allow God to shape their character through hardship. Churches that embrace this perspective create cultures where leaders remain, grow, and mature instead of running from difficult seasons.

Key Takeaway // Leadership development isn’t primarily about improving skills. Rather, it’s about allowing God to form character. Crisis often becomes the catalyst that moves leaders toward deeper maturity and lasting influence.

Listen to the Full Episode // Why Gifted Leaders Still Fail: Lessons from 25 Years of Ministry with Allen Holmes (March 5, 2026)

Scott Landry vulnerably recounts one of the darkest moments of his life after personal failure left him isolated, angry, and questioning God. Rather than meeting condemnation, he encountered God’s presence in the middle of his raw honesty. His story illustrates that true healing begins when leaders stop pretending, acknowledge what’s really happening inside, and allow God to meet them in their deepest pain.

Key Takeaway // God doesn’t meet the version of us we project to others—He meets the person we truly are. Healing begins when leaders stop hiding and bring their deepest struggles honestly before Him.

Listen to the Full Episode // Leading After You Lose Everything: Redemption, Honesty & The Fight with Scott Landry (December 18, 2025)

This compilation reminds us that leadership health begins long before visible success or failure. Healthy churches are built by healthy leaders, and healthy leaders cultivate habits that address the condition of their hearts, not just the effectiveness of their ministries. Whether you’re leading through growth, challenge, or personal struggle, these conversations invite you to slow down, examine your inner life, and take intentional steps toward long-term faithfulness in ministry.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in. You know, the subtitle of our podcast is Stuff You Wish They Taught in Seminary.

Rich Birch — And today I wish there was like a big underline under that word wish. I wish this conversation was a robust conversation when I was in school. Today we’re listening in on four senior leaders talking about really stuff that was going on on the inside when nobody was watching.

Rich Birch — This is a good time of year for you and I as executive leaders to pull back and to think deeply about the kind of structures we’re building as an organization that really create a flourishing environment for our people. You know, we asked earlier in the year what your greatest fears were for this year and 24.8% of you indicated that staff health, structure, morale, succession were your top fear this year. And so today’s conversation, what we’re doing is listening in on four senior pastors who get really honest on the show about what was happening on the inside of them.

Rich Birch — One of the churches that I was an executive pastor at, about a decade after I left, the senior leader made tragic decisions in their own personal life that ended up burning the church down, literally to the place where that organization doesn’t exist anymore. And from my understanding, actually the building is going to be demolished. Literally there’s nothing left.

Rich Birch — A ministry that impacted tens of thousands of people doesn’t exist today because of the decisions of a senior leader. And so at this time of year, in the summertime, I want to challenge us to listen carefully to some leaders that have been through some horrific moments and have come out the other side more healthy. And I want us to learn from these moments and say, hey, what can we do to structure our ministry so that we can be the healthiest possible environments we can possibly be?

Rich Birch — So up first, we’ve got Bob Riedy at Church of the Open Door, who hit a wall on a Sunday morning a few years ago, and he learned about ungrieved losses that took 40 years of ministry to see. So let’s listen in to Bob and see what you and I can learn as we think about the future.

[Clip 1 Begins]

Bob Riedy — I really do think that loss, and especially not properly processing and grieving loss, was a big part of what was behind all of this. In 2018, I lost my brother, my younger brother, who was really my wingman in so many ways. That was a loss that I think in some ways I’m still wrestling with.

Bob Riedy — During the pandemic, we lost, pick a number, a lot of loss as far as attendance and stuff. At first, we were off for about four months, but then when we came back, people began to trickle in, and it was clear to me that we lost hundreds of people as well from our church during that time. That was probably a profound thing for me.

Bob Riedy — We lost some key staff members as well during that time. We lost some friends because of the politics and some of the difficulty of that. And so I think loss was a big part of that.

Bob Riedy — My counselor has really helped me a lot with that, not properly grieving loss. Terry Wardle is one who said that ministry is a series of ungrieved losses. And I found that I really wasn’t doing that good. I was shaking it off and just moving forward, shaking it off and moving forward, and not really grieving it and bringing God into it and surrendering it to Him.

Bob Riedy — And I think part of what happened with that as well was I was concerned about what people thought. We were this powerhouse of a church, growing like crazy, and all of a sudden, like every other church, we were struggling.

Bob Riedy — And I remember the day that I burned out. That afternoon my children all came to our apartment. My wife and I were living downtown, and my daughter reminded me of this the other day. And she said, Dad, do you know what you said to me that day? And I said, no. She said, Dad, you said to me, what are people going to think of me that this happened to me?

Bob Riedy — And that was a loss that I wasn’t able to really properly wrap my head around. I was more concerned about how this was going to look with me as a Christian leader in our community. And then I think one of the places that the anxiety came from as well was shame.

Bob Riedy — One of the things the enemy, I think, came after me with was like, you’ve been telling people here in York how to live for the last 15 years, and you let this happen to you. And wow, I wrestled with that as well. So I think that loss and worrying what people were concerned about or what they were thinking of me, and then the shame of wrestling through that as a senior pastor whose church had been top 100 churches.

Bob Riedy — I taught church leadership and biblical preaching at Lancaster Bible College, and this happened to me. And so I really wrestled with just the fallout of all that.

[Clip 1 Ends]

Rich Birch — What are people going to think? Bob’s daughter quoting him back to him is a part of this thing I just will not shake. Ungrieved loss, it compounds.

Rich Birch — Loss is a part of your role. It’s a part of my role. But what Bob learned the hard way is that shaking it off and just kind of moving on will cost you more in the long run than sitting with it and processing it.

Rich Birch — Charles Stone is up next. He’s a friend, a pastor, a counselor, and did his PhD on stress while he got diagnosed with three serious conditions in the same year. And we’re going to focus on an easy kind of habit that he has installed or practiced that he has installed that I think you could use in the midst of your processing, of dealing with even those kinds of ungrieved losses. Let’s listen in on what Charles has to say today.

[Clip 2 Begins]

Charles Stone — Well, I kind of get thematically. One involves how we breathe. These are practices that can help us develop resilience.

Charles Stone — One has to do with how we breathe. Two have to deal with our emotions. One has to do with our thinking. One has to do with contemplative practices, spiritual practices.

Charles Stone — One has to do with something called certainty. One has to do with gratitude. One has to do with relationships. And one has to do with sleep. So any of those, I’m game for any of those that you feel like we ought to touch on one or two of them.

Rich Birch — Well, what about maybe breathing? Why don’t we start right at the top where you started? And then, you know, we’ll scratch the surface. There’s a ton we could, obviously, we want people to pick up a copy of the book, but let me start with breathing. That might be kind of interesting.

Charles Stone — Yeah. Well, actually, this ended up being the first one because it’s very easy to do. Now, I think around 75 times plus, you’ll find the word breath or breathe in the scripture.

Charles Stone — And Genesis, God breathed into Adam. He became a living being. I think his early part of Acts, Jesus breathed on the early church, the Holy Spirit came.

Charles Stone — And then David, the psalmist wrote, let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Now, here is the interesting neuroscience insight. Deep breathing activates a key set of nerves that come directly from my brain, just come from my spinal cord. But these are these are key nerves that they’re in pairs.

Charles Stone — One of them is called the vagus nerve, comes from the word vagrant. What does a vagrant do? He wanders around. So this nerve wanders around our hollow organs, our heart, our lungs, our stomach. So there’s a lot of communication back and forth.

Charles Stone — Scientists have found that deep breathing, especially on the exhale, when you exhale a little longer, it actually engages this nerve, which lowers the stress response. And here’s here’s why you practice it. I call it the sniff breath.

Charles Stone — Now, the actual term is “a psychological sigh”, but here’s how it would work when you’re facing some stress. Just breathe in, you know, a little more and then breathe out through your mouth. Now on the out breath, you want to be a little longer than the in breath, doing that three or four or five times.

Charles Stone — Labs all around the country found it lowers the stress response. So that is a simple, a portable tool you can take. Anybody can use anywhere.

Charles Stone — So yeah.

[Clip 2 Ends]

Rich Birch — I love Charles. He’s such a practical leader. Listen, I’d pick one of those practices this week and really try to install it.

Rich Birch — I love that he started with breath work because it’s really the easiest one to start with. You can install it today. Literally, he gave you everything you need, but maybe look at the other ones. Pick up his book, “Stress Less”. Got a bunch in there.

Rich Birch — Well, coming up next, we’ve got Allen Holmes. He’s been the senior pastor at Definition Church in Greensboro for 25 years. He has watched gifted leaders crash long enough that he’s built a framework around this to understand it. Let’s listen in to what Allen has to bring to this conversation.

[Clip 3 Begins]

Allen Holmes — It’s interesting when I, one of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis, in these pressure moments to expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world.

Allen Holmes — And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It’s a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor.

Allen Holmes — That’s how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn’t done anything else, but they let me be a pastor because I could preach.

Allen Holmes — And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice. In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle.

Allen Holmes — And that’s what pastors do. A lot of times the reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season. And then all of a sudden there’s a crisis that exposes some things and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a transformative, redemptive leader.

Allen Holmes — So I think one of the things that’s been so true for us is we’ve just tried to say to people when there’s a crisis, don’t panic, don’t run away. See it as an opportunity.

Allen Holmes — In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart. And God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true.

Allen Holmes — And so we’ve tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don’t run away and don’t hide. Let’s run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing God works redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future.

Allen Holmes — And because that’s been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He was he’s actually here two Sundays longer than I’ve been here. Eric’s been here 24 years. Jonathan’s been here 19 years. Chelsea’s been here almost this year will be 14 years. Steve’s been here 10 years.

Allen Holmes — I mean, so they’ve just been here a long, long, long time. And that but that’s why they’ve seen these moments and we’ve helped them to find God in it so that it actually works for us instead of against us.

[Clip 3 Ends]

Rich Birch — Allen walked us through the five stages. The third one he talked about is character. And that’s really where I think you and I, our greatest test is at. And this is where we meet our crisis. You should go back and listen to Allen’s episode. Super helpful.

Rich Birch — Coming up next for our last part of the conversation today is a friend of mine, Scott Landry. He’s the senior pastor of The Bridge near Ottawa. He’s been on the podcast before.

Rich Birch — Next is a clip from a book that was coming out or that has come out called “The Fight”. And it’s the moment that he lost everything and that he was alone in a house in the Northwest Territory. The reason why I wanted this on is because I think Scott models for you and models for me an open transparency with ourselves, with our people.

Rich Birch — That is something that I think you and I should live with our live with and should think through. How can we be this transparent with the people around us? Heads up. This is a heavy clip and it’s worth every second of your attention to lean in and hear what Scott shares.

[Clip 4 Begins]

Scott Landry — I hope that’s a powerful moment in the book because it was it’s genuinely the most powerful moment in my life. And this was this was kind of at the crescendo of my my breaking point. So after my marriage and my life specifically falling apart and I kind of lived in a place of isolation.

Scott Landry — I was living in the North, Canadian North, and I was yeah, I was lost. I was I was angry like I had so much anger. And it was so, yeah, I talk about in the book and I was angry and ultimately I was angry at myself, but I was also angry at God.

Scott Landry — And because even after, again, making a mess of my own life, he didn’t make a mess of my life. Nobody made the mess in my life. I made the mess in my life.

Scott Landry — And but then after that, I was trying to do everything right. And I was trying to do the right thing, do the right thing. And I was like, God, when are you going to start intervening on my behalf?

Scott Landry — And so, you know, being the preacher that I am, I was like, I got all the Bible verses that tell me that you’re going to like now is you’re going to do the redemptive thing. You’re going to show up. You’re going to move.

Scott Landry — You’re going to fix. You’re going to redeem. You’re going to restore.

Scott Landry — You’re going to repair. You can do all the R words. And and nothing was happening like it was like and it was almost as if I and I literally heard nothing. And I’d like to say I didn’t feel anything, but I did.

Scott Landry — It was just this this anger that was welling up inside of me like a like a pot boiling and eventually it just I just became unhinged. Like I was alone and I was completely isolated. I was in this empty house and I just started crying out like and yelling out and I threw through things.

Scott Landry — I I used words I’ve I’m ashamed to admit I used. Like I mean, I was as unhinged as could possibly. I was like, I God, if I saw you face to face, I would give you the…like I told him all this stuff.

Scott Landry — And and what I found in that moment was like and I again, I talk about in the book, but like I yelled, God, I don’t even believe in you anymore. I’m done. Like I like I don’t I don’t believe. You’ve promised me that you would never leave me. You would never forsake me. And that’s exactly what you’ve done. I’ve told people that you would never leave them and forsake them. And yet you’ve done that to me. You are you are dead to me. I don’t believe in you anymore.

Scott Landry — And I even now I still feel this and I’m just talking about it. But like this is and this is I know some people are going to roll their eyes at this. But like genuinely, when I heard myself say that, I felt this…like over me, over my house. It was like this eerie like pause.

Scott Landry — And I heard if I’ve ever heard the voice of God, I heard a voice say, well, then who are you yelling at? And it was like this, like…

Rich Birch — Beautiful.

Scott Landry — And in that moment, it was like my anger was it wasn’t my degree. It wasn’t my Bible. It was it was my anger was my evidence that God was present right then and right there. And because my anger was directed at him.

Scott Landry — And he knew that I was angry with him and he met me at the place of my anger and he was waiting. And this is the part that I still, I can’t do this, what’s in my head and in my heart justice. But it was God was saying, I’ve been waiting for you at this place your whole life.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Scott Landry — You you have been hiding from this anger from your childhood, from your young adulthood. And I’ve been waiting for you to meet me here at your anger. And I’ve I’ve wanted you to know that I would be here waiting for you.

Scott Landry — And if you met me on the top of the tallest mountain and if you look me face to face and if you were to give me the finger, you would find me there waiting because I am waiting at who you really are, not who you’re pretending to be.

Scott Landry — And everyone around you, you’ve got them fooled. And you’re a used car salesman and you can spin the Bible verses and you can do all that other stuff. But I know who you really are. And I’m waiting for you to finally be honest with yourself about who you really are.

Scott Landry — And now that you finally are, now we can do something about that together. And that was the moment that God truly revealed himself to me. And that’s when I, for the first time in my life, truly discovered who I was.

Scott Landry — And yeah, that’s the moment that I hope anybody who ever meets me or talks to me or listens to me or reads it, like that’s the part that I long for people to have before it costs them, like it cost me.

[Clip 4 Ends]

Rich Birch — I love that moment when Scott said he heard, who are you yelling at? Man, that sticks with you.

Rich Birch — Listen, four different stories. What I’m trying to do is raise for you the question about the inner life of what’s going on at your church with the senior leaders around you.

Rich Birch — What if you were to go back and look at these four conversations and maybe say, OK, this one might be the best for us to lead a conversation with, and send them one of those, send your team one of those episodes. And say, hey, I’d love for us to take some time this summer.

Rich Birch — Maybe you go and relax on a back deck somewhere or jump in somebody’s boat or spend a little extra time at the office. Because there is a little bit of slack at this time of year. And ask the question, hey, what’s going on on the inside of us as leaders at the church? How are we developing and how could this conversation help us ask some different questions than we normally do in our team meetings?

Rich Birch — All the links to those four conversations are down below. Thanks for sticking through this this entire conversation. I know there was a lot today, but we’ll see you next week with our regularly scheduled programs, kind of back to what we normally do here at unSeminary.

Rich Birch — Thanks for being a part of the podcast. Thanks for doing what you’re doing, including the hard work of the inner life to lead your people in a way that makes a huge difference. Thanks for being engaged in the local church. Take care, friends.