Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m looking forward to talking with Drake Farmer, the Executive Pastor of Ministries from Beulah Alliance Church in Alberta, Canada.
Are you curious about how churches manage leadership transitions smoothly? Learn about the strategic and intentional planning behind the leadership transition as Daniel Im (interviewed here) succeeded Keith Taylor as Beulah’s lead pastor. Tune in as Drake highlights the critical role of proactive succession planning, building trust, and maintaining a mission-focused mindset to ensure successful transitions.
Visit drakefarmer.com to learn about Beulah Alliance Church, The Unstuck Group and connect with Drake.
NEXT STEPS // Are you navigating a leadership transition in your church?
Download our 2-Year Succession Timeline Template, inspired by insights from the episode Stability in Transition: Insights on Church Succession from Drake Farmer. This free resource offers a step-by-step guide to planning a smooth, strategic transition over 24 months. With clear phases, actionable steps, and tips directly from Drake’s experience, this template is perfect for church leaders looking to make their next leadership handover stress-free and successful. Get your copy today and ensure a confident path forward for your church!
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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe
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Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. Man, I am so looking forward to today’s conversation. This is one of those conversations that I know that there are leaders in the midst of this situation that we’re talking about, or on the brink of this situation that we’re talking about that are gonna lean in and get so much value out of this, not only because the leader that we’re having on today is is ah has living through this, is working through this, but he’s a repeat guest, which you know when we have repeat guests, that means I think they’re great.
Rich Birch — And so super excited to have Drake Farmer with us. ah Drake is at a church called Beulah Alliance Church. It’s a multi-site church with three locations as well as a Spanish campus in Alberta, Canada, was founded in 1907 in the growing city of Edmonton, has become a multi-ethnic and multi-generational church experienced rapid growth in these last few years. Drake sits in the seat of executive pastor of ministries. ah Plus, he’s also a friend. He’s a great guy. Super excited to have you on the show today, Drake. Thanks for being here.
Drake Farmer — Awesome, I’m happy to be here.
Rich Birch — Yeah, the other Canadian Drake. That’s what I like to say. You know, there’s there are two in Canada that that we know of. You’re one of them.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, but before nobody would ever get my name right when I introduced, but now, cause you know, Drake the rep.
Rich Birch — ah Just kidding. Oh, really? That’s hilarious.
Drake Farmer — Oh, Greg, Craig, Frank, I got truck once. That was a, yep, yep.
Rich Birch — That’s great. I love it. No, that’s that’s great. Well, yeah, that’s an upside for sure of of Drake. So why don’t you fill in the picture? Kind of tell us a little bit more about Beulah. Give us, you know, if people were to come this weekend, what would they experience? That sort of stuff.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, like you said, we’re a multi-site. We’ve got, what’s interesting is we’ve got, as you said, three locations, but four campuses. So there’s an English campus and a Spanish campus in one of our locations.
Drake Farmer — And so we’re in, our our vision statement is to awaken greater Edmonton to King Jesus. And so even even through COVID, even understanding, we have a ah quite a ah large online presence, but our focus isn’t to have necessarily an online campus because really, you know, and it’s been true of the church the last 103 years as Greater Edmonton, it’s kind of grown up with the city um in that sense. And so we’re really focused on that incarnational, how are you how is that, you know the you know, now the screen door is, you know, online church. And so being intentional there, but then wanting really to drive people in.
Drake Farmer — And so, um again, it would just it would depend a lot on the campus that you’re you’re at. So with with real estate and what you have and the buildings you can get, we would say, you know, we want to we want to have the experience, our values, our philosophy, our vision, the experience would be really much Beulah, but at the same time, it could be size and location. Edmonton is ah is a a hugely, diversely cultural um city. And so we have multigenerational multi multi-campus, multi-ethnic campuses across the board. um But the biggest thing is going to be if you come to our West Campus, which is running around 2,000 people or three services.
Drake Farmer — We’ve got a campus in there in the southwest part of our city that’s running about 600 people with two services and then all the way down to you know our our Spanish campus and our smaller campuses ranging from around the 50 to 100 or you know to the 200 mark with our Spanish and our English one there is our newest and we’re in the midst of long-term planning in the next couple of years launching our next campus. So.
Rich Birch — So good. Yeah, we, we, you might remember if you’ve the name Beulah is not a name you run into all the time in churches. It’s not like another, you know, whatever Northview, you know, Community Church or whatever.
Rich Birch — And now I just made fun of way too many people who listen to our podcast. But ah you might remember we had Daniel Im on the the podcast. We had him on multiple times. And Daniel is the lead pastor. We’ll link to that episode. And the reason why so oftentimes, you know, I I go to a church and I’m like, I’d love to what’s going on, I’d love to hear… But actually, in this conversation, I’ve seen from afar what’s happened with ah yeah Daniel stepping in as the lead pastor, the kind of succession stuff that’s happened there. And I really wanted to get Drake’s kind of vantage point on this view on this as executive ah pastor, or senior leader in the organization, kind of get his perspective on that.
Rich Birch — This is an issue that I know is just, it’s incredibly important for so many of our churches. So talk us through kind of at a high level first, uh, what, what, tell, talk us through what has happened on the succession. What does that look like? And then we’ll get into what did you learn through that? What would you say some of your, your learnings for 30 years from now, when Daniel leaves, you can think next guys can pull out this one and and talk about what that looks like then. But yeah, let’s first tell us kind of describe the succession that has taken place there.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, totally. Oh, it’s interesting, like, even from my my vantage point was, in our in our greater Edmonton area, ah probably all the major, there was a lot of successions are happening right around the time, even before COVID. And especially some of our larger churches. And so it’s fascinating to see what was happening.
Drake Farmer — And then a lot of even taking the risk of going a little bit younger than what we expect, you know, the 30s mark and even some being 20. And I was just like, oh, this is so fascinating to watch. You know, I’m from an outsider’s perspective, and I wonder how it’s going to turn out.
Drake Farmer — You know, and then I joke around that I’m like, Oh, yeah, now i’m I’m, I’m hitching my, you know, my my wagon to that being part of Beulah, you know, and even through COVID, what was what was what was crazy was, um you know there was a season there where in our and our district, in our denomination, in our province, there was 21 vacant lead pastor roles, just lead pastor roles.
Drake Farmer — And so there was this crisis, you know. And we’ve been talking about an aging demographic of lead pastors for a while now.
Drake Farmer — But but you know the intentionality of going, oh, we’ll think about it eventually. And COVID hits, it expedites all of this stuff. And all of a sudden now, all these churches and our our district, our denomination is scrambling, right?
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Drake Farmer — And so what what was a privilege, I would say, for me, um being walking into this, probably about a third or a quarter into the process I guess of this of, or at least I’m sorry not the process of there was much more intention which we’ll get into later. But of the third end of the process of of the actual overlap between our previous lead pastor, Keith Taylor and then our current Daniel Im um and being able to kind of watch that happen . And seeing the intentionality that there was that in that Keith brought that he started this process like six years I think before it was done or six years before Daniel came on. I can’t remember the exact number.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Drake Farmer — But he I think he even triggered this even though like we should think about this, like ten years before.
Drake Farmer — You know and and always just kind of going, and eventually was like, alright guys, we need to seriously start looking at I know you don’t want you know they didn’t want him to. You know he you know those sort of things and I think this would be a really good kind of you know succinct way to put it of Keith’s heart. You know it’s my second week he’s taking out for lunch. um COVID hasn’t hit yet. So my claim to fame is I started here at Beulah, two weeks later COVID hits, and I become the COVID crisis manager.
Rich Birch — Wow. a Great time to start.
Drake Farmer — Yeah. COVID crisis manager for all of our campuses and we have to rethink ministry from the get-go.
Drake Farmer — But yeah, so that hasn’t hit yet. Keith’s taking up for lunch and I just, I asked him, I say, Hey, Keith, you’ve easily got another 5 to 10 years. Like, like why now? Why are you, why are you thinking succession now? And he goes, cause I’m not thinking for this church. I’m not thinking about the next five to 10, I’m thinking in the next 30 plus. And the next 30 plus needs a new leader.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Drake Farmer — um And it’s not that I couldn’t keep leading it. But if we if I’m doing it on the high and that kind of growth stage, this is the time to do it. And and and let’s be intentional about it instead of waiting until it’s needed, in a sense.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. One of the things, this struck me, I don’t know Keith that well, having a little bit of interaction with him, um you know, over the years. A great leader and, you know, incredible guy, obviously loves the Lord, has been there for 30 years so that, you know, he was, you know, had been obviously deeply loved in the community, loved in the church.
Rich Birch — Talk to me about, like one of the hallmarks, I think, of these successions. A lot of it does rest in the heart of the leaving or the departing pastor and their orientation towards this. Maybe talk to a a person that’s listening in today that so finds himself there like at some age where they’re like, I should start thinking about this. How how what how would you encourage them to be kind of cultivating their own inner life in these this moment…
Rich Birch — …even before they kind of flag it and say, okay, I think we need to start talking about this?
Drake Farmer — Yeah, I think I think part of it is just, I mean, I say this to any staff person to kind of alleviate when they feel like it’s time for them to step off the bus.
Drake Farmer — And they’re handing me that letter of resignation. And and they’re a little bit like conflicted about it, obviously, because it’s like, I’m feeling called out of it. But I don’t want to give this sense, like, I hate this place or something.
Drake Farmer — And I’m just like and I have I had to learn too because I was like I don’t want to overreact emotionally or under-react, like oh you don’t care that I’m leaving.
Drake Farmer — So says I just need you to understand like, hey I’m I’m super sad, like you’re you’re amazing that you’re stepping off the bus, but I don’t own you, like Jesus owns you. And then Jesus and and so if Jesus is moving the pieces across the board and is wanting you in a different location, then he has somebody for us. So I think and think the difference there is that you’re needing to be in that kind of almost like I’m I’m here now because I’ve been called here…
Drake Farmer — …um but always being ready, the sense of going at any point, right? I could be called out, and what we’ve seen so much over the years is, well, now that call’s there, so now I’m leaving, and then the church now needs to walk through that. um So I think more so than any other role as that as that voice, as that lead pastor, um is going, how do I prepare my church? I think I think the difficulty is um I mean there isn’t I mean, there is an employment risk in that to say, hey, I think i think it might be time and you’re you’re putting your neck out there. So so I can understand there’s there is a sense of like, what does that look like? um
Drake Farmer — And so I I don’t want to assume and the um the unique dynamic. Because I said our story here at Beulah is going to be different than your story.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Drake Farmer — So I’ll i’ll just share it from this perspective to go what Keith did…
Drake Farmer — …and why it worked well for us, but recognizing the dynamics that were there. He was a loved beloved leader that he had the trust and the relational credit with the board of the church and you know all of that stuff. And and ah and it did revolve around retirement which also helps.
Drake Farmer — So to keep that in mind as well.
Drake Farmer — um But yeah, so I mean, he was, I don’t know if it was GLS or maybe it was some other conference he was saying that he was at, and they were talking about succession. This is about 10 years before, and he’s like, oh, that’s, yeah, that’s a really important conversation. So he he kind of let the board know, hey, this came up, you know, I don’t have any plans, but at some point, we if we’re gonna do this, we should be intentional about it.
Drake Farmer — And then it was ah the five to six year mark that he said, okay, guys, Well, guys and gals, we’re egalitarian, but um okay, team.
Drake Farmer — ah to say, hey, we need to think about this.
Drake Farmer — We need we need to be intentional about this.
Drake Farmer — So let’s start praying. Let’s start discerning. Let’s start planning, you know. And a big part of that was, well, who who do we believe the next person is? And and what what is the prayerful discernment of that and then and then the plans of like what is the overlap and those different pieces. And so there was a lot of intentionality there and a very open posture of the sense of like it’s about the mission, it’s about Jesus…
Drake Farmer — …it’s about you know you know continuing to see the legacy. And when you’re and part of being a part of a church, and for some churches it might seem like 100 years is normal, um but in the west of Canada, 100 years is is very abnormal for for a church to have that legacy. 50, maybe 60, sure, but you know having that legacy in this area um definitely builds into that as well, that we’ve seen multiple pastors come.
Drake Farmer — And there are people in this church Church is 103 years old. We had somebody um who who recently um who passed away that was like 102 years old…
Drake Farmer — …and had been a part of that church the whole entire time.
Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.
Drake Farmer — So i like there’s some of these dynamics that you have these voices and trust and stuff.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, a big part of that posture and that thinking was, you know, it’s not about me and having that sense and praying into it and wondering when, you know, Jesus, let me know or let me think about it.
Drake Farmer — Or let me be prepared. Or, or maybe, maybe for you, it’s just, well, I, I got in a situation where we’re not in a situation that we could be as intentional as six years. But do you have a plan in place to say, Hey, let’s think about that now so that when the call comes that we can enact because we’ve thought through it and we’re not scrambling. Maybe it’s as simple as that.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Right. Yeah. That’s great. I’d love to hear about the kind of intentional plan. You know, there’s, there was this overlap. I’d love to, you know, pick apart what that looked like. And, um, you know, kind of set that up for us, help us understand what that kind of intentional, those intentional steps look like.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, and what’s interesting is like, for Daniel, when Keith approached Daniel, he said, would you consider putting your name forward and be a part of this process? There was two main candidates that they had kind of fought through and reached out to to consider. And Daniel wanted, and he was at Lifeway, he was at Nashville. I mean, like he legit just got his green card and then was back to Canada.
Drake Farmer — right like So it’s just like, oh, we were we were there planning the roots deep, they weren’t looking. um And one of the things for Daniel was because there was an intentional overlap, if that wasn’t there, he would have said no.
Drake Farmer — Now I know another contexts, having that intentional overlap may not be helpful. I know of other, I could share stories of churches I’ve spoken with and and walked with as well um that because of that but it was because of the attitude or or the posture…
Drake Farmer — …maybe of the of the exiting pastor where it didn’t allow for that, where there needed you almost need to have like ah a season where there’s like a reprieve or like a gap. But because of Keith’s posture because of how how he saw and how he spoke about publicly and how Daniel spoke of Keith. And there was a big part, what was interesting, was it was so fascinating. I would get these text messages from, you know, people from churches across, you know, the nation and internet, you know, North America as well. But I just knew there were, kind like you said, we’re looking and outside looking in and we’re going, man, is it, is it actually going as well as it looks?
Drake Farmer — And I was like, and I could say, actually, yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it is.
Drake Farmer — You know, being able to sit in the you know as an exec team and and senior leadership team, was it perfect? Were there never any tensions, and especially going through COVID? Of course not. You know, and and I know that there were conversations, because at that point, you know, Daniel was reporting to Keith, this wasn’t a, like, dual leading thing.
Drake Farmer — It was I’m bringing you in, and then helping you move that forward. And so there were reporting systems there, Keith was still our lead. He was leading. And I’m sure there were probably some, you know, some good, healthy, you know, conflict type conversations behind closed doors. But when it came to in front of the staff, when it came to at the congregation, it was all just, you know, how they spoke of each other was huge.
Drake Farmer — And then another part that was a big part was there was an intentional plan of knowing what pieces in this lead pastor job description would be passed over, you know. And and in what part through those two years at the at the one mark mark, you know the three month, at six month, at the nine month, at the one year, they are very strategic about the different pieces that way they would hand over.
Drake Farmer — And and it was interesting. So when covid and covid happened and covid hit. We had to go online, 100%. And I think there was the the strategy side piece of the church. I think it was still at least another three or maybe six months—I don’t know what the exact timeline was—that was still supposed to be firmly in Keith’s you know purview. But he said, at his age, and he was looking, moving online, he goes, I’m the least informed person. And Daniel’s way better equipped to help us as a church right now strategically to as a lead side of things to be able to lead us through that. And so he said, Daniel, I need to hand this over to you sooner. And here’s why.
Drake Farmer — So it was Keith that was driving some of that stuff and recognizing the benefit. And so he was driving that posture. He, you know, same thing. He said, Daniel, it’s like, if there’s some hard decisions that we need to make as a church, be it who’s on the bus, or who you want to bring on the bus, or change a vision or values, let’s do that now, so that i can you can lend my voice or I can echo in that. Right?
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Drake Farmer — And so there was a lot of reframing of going, what is our vision? What is our values? And what was amazing when when we un we did our values and did a message series on it, the message series was called Unchanging. Because it was like, these have been the values…
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Drake Farmer — …of Beulah for the last 103 years and they’re they’re they’re the same. They’re just packaged differently.
Rich Birch — Yeah. And maybe different words, but yeah.
Drake Farmer — And and and Daniel did that and Keith was a part of that message series, even though he had already retired. And even now, we’re going into a capital campaign in or in sort actually we’re in the middle of one in this in this month, and Keith is a part of that because of the voice and the weight that he has in that.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s great. Yeah, he’s got, yeah, he’s good yeah. That’s good.
Drake Farmer — And you know, but even now, like it was so fascinating, even after the fact, where Keith you know, he was going, okay, I’m retired now, but he still attends Beulah and he’s still a part of this church. And people still view him as their pastor, which is totally cool. And he was like, how do I how do I have a posture of supporting Daniel? So at first he was sitting up front to show, I’m for him, I’m for him. And then he started realizing people were watching how he would react. And he was like, no, no. So now he sits in the back.
Rich Birch — Right, right, right, right, right, right.
Drake Farmer — It was just like, okay, if this, because if it if it if it impacts mission, if it impacts our reaching people…
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.
Drake Farmer — …and stuff, he’s like, not going to do it.
Drake Farmer — It’s not about me.
Drake Farmer — You know it’s about the church and it’s about Jesus and it’s about the mission. And a big part of that is how do we set up you know Daniel. So that was really his posture. And Daniel reciprocated in the same way of how he respected him and how he he honored, you know even in the baton pass and everything. So yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. That’s even that intentionality of like sitting up front. You know, I’ve said I like that he’s at least started there. That’s an interesting, um even tactic. I’ve said that to teaching pastors in the past when we’re trying to have, you know, somebody who on that or join the teaching team.
Rich Birch — It’s like I’ve said to them, I’m like, I need you to sit down front when they’re here. Don’t take that weekend off.
Rich Birch — Please show up and you know, open your notebook, take notes.
Rich Birch — You know because that and people do pick up on that, right?
Rich Birch — They do pick up on that, you know, subtle cue. I get why he doesn’t I understand the like hey, I don’t want to be the other people are looking at all the time. I get that.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, yeah. And, and, and that would have been the posture.
Drake Farmer — I mean, and that’s how Daniel leads too.
Drake Farmer — He’s upfront worshiping, he’s upfront and part of those things too. And, and, but it just had the unexpected negative consequence with some people.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Drake Farmer —And he said, well, we’re going to do what makes the most sense.
Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about, when you say Daniel started as he was intentionally, so when he joined the team, it was known publicly: Hey, he, this is the guy who’s going to be the successor. Was the timeline known?
Rich Birch — Talk us about what…
Drake Farmer — We we joke around.
Rich Birch — And, and, and, you know, pull pull apart what was in his head, what was in Keith’s head, what was in the team’s head, the community’s head, all that.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, if I were to have any question, if I were to go back and ask, would we do something differently? The one thing that was like…
Drake Farmer — So they hired Daniel functionally and you know as a title, which is just a different version of my role, which was kind of fascinating. So he had the title of my predecessor, Senior Associate. And that’s where he was hired as. And then as at the congregational level, they were like, oh, Daniel. Like Daniel used to be on staff at Beulah before he went to Lifeway.
Drake Farmer — And he was in Adult Ministry. And so like, oh, Daniel’s back, and he’s our Senior Associate Pastor. But there was no like right up their get-go…
Rich Birch — Yeah. Context or whatever.
Drake Farmer — But so was it was fascinating at the congregational level, I don’t know if they fully understood that, but at the staff, and there was some conversation there. But even at the denominational level, we just joked around, it was like the worst kept secret that was coming back.
Drake Farmer — Right. So and I, you know, and it’s one of those hard things to go. Well, it’d be hard to know if you were to do it differently, you know, would that get the results? Because a lot of these things are, you’re throwing a dart and you’re you’re taking the best out of the information you have and you have to make a decision where you’re gonna go.
Drake Farmer — So yeah, there wasn’t this there wasn’t this very public, that and again, there was a very clear you know we’re going to start with this. We’re going to get used to them again. You know the staff level, they understand it. He gets more of that strategy thing, the staff development, and you know those pieces. And at some point, as things are going, then they’re going to announce it. So that because that two-year mark of, I think this is probably where the wisdom comes in. If you announce it from the get-go, hey, here’s my successor, and then it’s two years…
Drake Farmer — …like it’s like mourning somebody dying, but they haven’t passed yet.
Rich Birch — Yeah, for a long time. Yep.
Drake Farmer — And I thought, obviously, Keith died, because that’s a…
Drake Farmer — …very morbid way to look at it.
Rich Birch — No, no. Yes, yes.
Drake Farmer — But it’s there’s this sense of like, oh, you’re in this weird space.
Drake Farmer — And when do you strategically invite your staff, when do you strategically invite, you know, key leaders, when do you strategically invite, you know, the congregation into knowing that, so there’s enough runway, um but not so much that you’re just like, so what does this mean? And you know, and then yeah, this, this, sense. And I mean, for us, it was it was interesting because obviously with COVID, it it and both made things very difficult.
Drake Farmer — Everything was difficult. um
Drake Farmer — And it was it was it was, I think, hardest on Keith because he’s such an extrovert and such, you know, very pastoral where some of his, we had to do some stuff after his succession because, you know, he did, we did a succession baton pass with nobody in the room at the time. And to serve him we got people to send in pictures and we do these cardboard cutouts and put them in the seats and stuff so we could see the faces of the people that he’s been pastoring for 30 years.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s hard. That’s a hard season.
Drake Farmer — But he couldn’t he couldn’t say like eyeball to eyeball so we got to do that later. But some of that was difficult. But some of that too was like I think people were just like you know Beulah’s always been great, we’ve always trusted them. Why is this any different?
Drake Farmer — And right now, I’m just trying to figure out how to live my life. And so there’s a couple of town hall meetings that I was leading with, I was going to be interviewing the two of them. And and it’s all on Zoom, right? So then maybe that was pretty…
Drake Farmer — But it’s like a church of 3,000 plus people and six people show up.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Drake Farmer — And then you do a second one and six people show up. And I remember saying to both of them, this is either a really good sign, or not.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Drake Farmer — And I don’t know which one, right? Like, you know, and, and it turned out to be…
Rich Birch — Well, I think there’s something…
Rich Birch — There’s an interesting principle there where I think our, like this stuff is really important to us.
Rich Birch — And, you know, that, that I would take that as the, like, yeah, the people trust the leadership at the church…
Rich Birch — …and are like behind you, but yeah, there is some of this where it’s like, and but and that was obviously an extreme season for that, where it was like…
Drake Farmer — Yep. For sure.
Rich Birch — …yeah, I got enough fish to fry in my own world. Like, you know, I, you know, we we want to walk through that. I’m interested in that. But like at the end of the day, just tell me when it’s done and we’ll be great.
Rich Birch — You know, kind of thing ah this idea of kind of um the the typical lead pastor’s role being carved up, and, you know, um hey, so this is this is Keith’s up until this point. And then it gets handed off to Daniel.
Rich Birch — All of that. Was there any part of that looking back on that process uh, that you would say, Oh, that, that was either like a transferable lesson we should pass on or like, is there something that people that are listening in should think about when they’re thinking about how to kind of carve up the role? Are there any kind of advice you’d pass on to that? I think cause I think that’s an interesting way to to process it.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, I think I think the biggest thing, because, without getting into the specific of details…
Drake Farmer — …because I would want to be real careful that you don’t go…
Drake Farmer — …oh, this is how Beulah did, so this is how I’m going to do it.
Drake Farmer — I think you need to look through what are some of the big mantle pieces that if we don’t figure out who’s leading what and when—things like you know preaching.
Drake Farmer — And it was like basically during that season nobody else preached on our you know…
Drake Farmer — …our main stage in broadcasting other than a few exceptions because they need, we needed to hear from both. Like that was very strategic.
Drake Farmer — And when you’re looking at the HR side of things, who’s leading our senior leadership and exec team…
Drake Farmer — …you know like at what point does that turn over the strategy for ministry, you know and and the in the the pieces of that. And yeah the part that I’m not doing I obviously isn’t exact, but the the part that the lead is giving vision and understanding of like, here’s the lens that we see everything through. Those those different pieces, the the staffing and culture pieces and stuff like that. You know, who’s owning the staff, all staff meetings. And and and re-thinking through org charts and who’s reporting to who and you know and how you want your team to be you know managed.
Drake Farmer — So it’s like there are some of these pieces and going, and then it’s I think it’s laying that out. And a lot of it, and like that was done before Daniel showed up. That was the board.
Drake Farmer — And Keith that walked through that so that when he was invited into it, this is the plan as we’re going to walk things out.
Drake Farmer — And and a big part of it too is because Daniel’s coming into the posture to go like, yeah, I’m not Keith.
Drake Farmer — And I recognize I’m not i’m not trying to just learn to to be mini Keith because that wouldn’t have served anything. But at the same time, there’s so much I can learn from Keith. So how do I in these two years not only are we figuring how to co-lead…
Drake Farmer — …and how do we pass things off, but it’s good to do that because then I get to I get to sit walking into it and not just getting everything at once…
Drake Farmer — …I have all this relational credit that Keith has. I have all this leadership experience that I get to pull from. And I get to get piece by piece by piece kind of handed to me and then continue getting coaching. And then Keith giving him the freedom to go here’s my advice but recognizing…
Rich Birch — That’s your thing.
Drake Farmer — …you got to lead and you’ve got to walk out the consequences of your decision. So you always had this posture… And there’ll be some things that you know, yeah like I said, you would have good healthy dialogue because it’s different convictions and understanding in that. I think the one thing I think ah that we kept trying to right size, because at the congregational level, you know, I think for the most part, that came clear. There was good people. They knew Keith was honored. They knew that they knew that, you know, because it was around retirement, that there was the right steps to honor him, both on stage and off stage.
Drake Farmer — And, you know, did a thing in the parking lot where every person can come and he could shake hands and stuff like that. um People felt like, OK, and you he wasn’t leaving. Right.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Drake Farmer — And because of the healthy relationship…
Drake Farmer — …obviously, sometimes that doesn’t work. But because of that, you know, they get to still see Keith. He’s still is doing funerals. He’s still, you know…
Drake Farmer — …like um less obviously, for a lot of different reasons. Drake Farmer — And then, but for us, I think the biggest thing was for the staff, it was like, what does this mean? and And I think part of it too is even just making it clear that’s…
Drake Farmer — I remember chatting with one of our teams and they were struggling with something and they said, it just feels like the succession is just the most important thing. And I looked at him, I said, yeah, because it is. And they’re like, what? I said, I get it. Like boots on the ground, ministry is important. But and and we wouldn’t want to pause all that stuff.
Drake Farmer — And we’ve got to figure out the tension of doing both these things. But if we don’t do succession right…
Rich Birch — Yeah, stakes are huge for sure.
Drake Farmer — …then there might not be a ministry for you to run.
Drake Farmer — Or you might not have a, like I hate to say, you might not have a job, because there’s not enough payroll because the people left and the giving went down.
Drake Farmer — And you hope and you hope that people don’t do that. But we’ve seen examples where done wrong, I mean, the church can implode there, you know, they can’t bounce back. There could be church splits because of unhealth and all that stuff. So it’s like, yeah, this is really, really important because it trickles all down from that.
Drake Farmer — Now is everything about the lead? No, it shouldn’t be that. and we’re seeing the opposite it is a new personality driven thing…
Drake Farmer — But still, like if this isn’t done well…
Drake Farmer —And you know and for us, it was like a joke around because we… And this was actually helpful for our staff, you know where our strategic ends. We don’t have attendance as one of our strategic… We still track attendance, obviously, for loads of reasons. But as our one of our main priorities isn’t there. But during COVID, it was you know our strategic end stretch goal is a negative 15% in attendance in this next year and the first part of the succession.
Drake Farmer — And part of it was like, well, you know with succession, that’s about what you’re supposed to expect, 15% drop at least…
Drake Farmer — …and you hope if your strategy will bounce back. But you add succession and COVID into the mix.
Drake Farmer — We joke around the big great shuffle of everybody switching churches, depending on where people landed on stuff.
Drake Farmer — So we’re like, yeah, it’s a stretch goal because let’s not go to negative 30%.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Drake Farmer — But it also communicated to go, in this season, it’s not just all about up and to the right.
Drake Farmer — The season for right now is recognizing it isn’t just go, go, go.
Drake Farmer — Now, we don’t ignore opportunities and the movement of you know Jesus and to evangelize and to disciple, but hey, in this season, as you think about growth stages of any organization, it’s normal when they when they’re doing the flow to go up to the next stage, there will be a dip and to not freak out.
Drake Farmer — It’s okay.
Drake Farmer — But a lot of it too, just to be, I think, I think if we would have done more um town halls with our staff, I think, and kind of like inviting them into instead of relying fully on the cascading, you know, um communication. And maybe if COVID wouldn’t have happened and a lot of needing to reorg everything because of COVID, maybe that would have been better.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Drake Farmer — But with that combination, there was a lot of people that felt kind of like displaced.
Drake Farmer — And with that, felt like in the dark, unintentionally…
Drake Farmer — …because it it wasn’t like this is just some secret. But so I think if I were to go back in light of what we’re walking through would have been more, hey, let’s just talk about this. Let’s have these two [inaudible]. And so we did that and more in the tail end because we were noticing this. But if we were to do a front load hat would probably had…
Rich Birch — Do a bit more of that. Yeah.
Drake Farmer — …a less angst for people. So that would have been one definite learning lesson.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, the the the interesting thing there, you know, you had brought up with this, which I think is good, is just kind of practical. Like, hey, you might see a dip in attendance. That’s just a normal thing. That’s a factor. You know, I’ve said that to people on the, you know, in the fundraising side. That’s like one of those things fundraising consultants won’t tell you. They’ll be like, you’re probably going to take a hit in your in your attendance during the public phase.
Rich Birch — And ah that’s okay. Like, don’t freak out. It’s going to be okay. and You’re not losing people.
Rich Birch — Your church is going to have a church on the end of it, but it’s a normal part of the process.
Rich Birch — But I appreciate that you brought it up because um there is a dynamic, and Keith will be an an example of a leader like this where, um so three quarters of the reason why people attend church—and this is any church, three, according to our friends at Gallup—is because of the teaching on Sunday morning. That’s that’s a true statement. People, teaching is a teaching leads. It’s a critical part of what we do. And obviously when you switch out the person who’s doing a lot of that teaching that’s going to have impact on the organization. That is just true. And as staff, executive whether you’re an executive pastor or a staff leader in a church, we have to stare down that reality.
Rich Birch — I do think that that is fuzzy in a lot of our team’s heads. It’s not clear what that looks like. And the reason why I say that’s that’s apropos for a leader like Keith, is Keith is not a, my, my impression of him. He’s not like a super self-centered guy. He’s not like, Hey, it’s all about me. He’s not, and Daniel’s definitely not that way. He’s not like, Hey, this is all about me. But it is a critically important part of, you know, of what we do. And so obviously if you’re going to switch people that you you know you’re going to see, um you know, an impact on that. We just have to be sober about that. That’s going to be be normal. what
Rich Birch — What is Keith doing now? Like, I know retirement is like a very funny word. What does that mean? Where is he spending his time?
Rich Birch — This is a critical piece of the equation, kind of what these people do on the other side of transition is important.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, so um without getting into too many details, because it’s it’s not my story to tell, but there were some health stuff with his wife…
Drake Farmer — …that came right around that time. He’s been public about it, so I know I’m not breaching confidence.
Drake Farmer — But and so a big focus for him is is caring for his wife. And then the other part on the sides is, yeah, he has he is doing some with, well, they’re called the pastorate now, but the Canadian Church Leaders Network we have here.
Drake Farmer — And he does with emerging leaders, and so he’s a part of that.
Rich Birch — That’s great.
Drake Farmer — He gets to do that on the side of his desk. And then, I mean, he just recently walked the church through a succession, and then there’s other some church consulting. And then there’s some speaking here and there, but he’s just very picky and choosy about how that is…
Drake Farmer — …so that he can manage some of that stuff. And so part of it is he gets to continue using his gifts. And then, yeah, just he gets to be part of our congregation. And then there are places where he’s still doing funerals, he’s still speaking at you know on stage you know as a pulpit fill. And like anybody else, we give him an honorarium.
Drake Farmer — And and then other other different pieces where he’s a part of, and so he gets to still utilize those pastoral gifts and still gets to use those leadership gifts.
Drake Farmer — And there’s moments where it’s like, hey, we should probably get Keith’s input on this, right? Because it’s just knowing the history and the relationships. And and he’s just he just ah he just continues to be a cheerleader…
Drake Farmer — …for us as a staff, for the church, for the organization and the relationships that he’s built.
Drake Farmer — He’s still he still shoulder taps those because he just he really wants the kingdom to win. He wants Jesus people to be awakened to Jesus for him to be made to be made you know known. And And with other people just to help them get on mission and to get clarity, he just he’s just he’s in the hallways and he’s yeah galvanizing in in in the alleyways and the hallways and things like that.
Rich Birch — That’s great.
Drake Farmer — So that’s kind of, I mean, far as far as I can tell.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s great. No, I totally get that. Obviously not asking you to speak on his behalf, but just as a team leader in the, you know, in the midst to see that I think it and is an important piece of the puzzle for sure. There isn’t. You know your retirement is a funny concept when it comes to you know serving the kingdom.
Rich Birch — Right? It’s always a strange you know you know a strange thing. So um I think this has been great. What a ah great conversation. The other kind of encouragement I would say to people that are listening in is, um and we’ve kind of talked around this a little bit, but um obviously Keith pursued or the church pursued Daniel and like went after him and was like, hey, we would love for you to come and and think about this. I would encourage leaders that are thinking in, thinking around that, like but like there there are probably people out there…
Rich Birch — …that are on your short list of people that you… And you you, I think in those situations, we discredit those, like we say no for the people before they say no.
Rich Birch — Like we, and we don’t even ask them, because we think there’s no way, and I would have. Like I remember we’re hearing when Daniel was going back to Beulah, I was one of those people that was like, really, wow, fascinating, I did not see that coming.
Drake Farmer — Well, on and yeah, on his resumé, I mean, Daniel’s never been a lead pastor.
Drake Farmer — Like he has tremendous amount…
Rich Birch — Yeah, huge leadership chops. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Drake Farmer — …like with his leadership chops, he did a lot of like his speaking, he was a, when he was a national, you know, as a communicator in the church he was at.
Drake Farmer — Obviously with all the church consulting he’s done with LifeWay. But it wasn’t your, the obvious at his at his age, at his experience, his resume…
Drake Farmer — …and but when you pray into that… I think another example I would go is, you know, the church that I came from, um you know When that lead, he had been he had been working with somebody and they figured you know the next five to 10 years, it’d be great. I think you know he could be the next lead. And a lot of it was just due to his age, you know? And and then it was this very clear call…
Drake Farmer — …to say, like he this does lead is needing to leave. And it was funny, his first reaction was even when he told me, he asked me, would you come back and become the lead? Now, out of respect, I said, I’ll pray about it. But I came back and said, you like you know, I’m not a lead pastor.
Drake Farmer — I’m not wired that way. It’s not what the church needs. And then him and and they’re his associate were both like, yeah, but both were saying, well, I’m not ready. I’m not ready. And as I was praying about it, I was like, why not? And so I challenged them.
Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.
Drake Farmer — I go, don’t like, yeah, okay, on paper, sure. But is could God be something in it? Now, of course, pray about it and discern because you guys have to walk out of the consequences. And then I got to, in my my consulting side of things, I got to actually come back and coach with them. Because I said, i you know, I’m not going to come back on staff, but I’d be happy to help Bridge because we’re in the same city.
Drake Farmer — And so getting to be a part of that and seeing that, but it was even there it was fascinating the age gap was crazy and you know this guy’s like not even in his 30s. And the church just they accepted him you know.
Drake Farmer — And they and they walked within this. Al of his staff are older than him but they follow him. But there was a risk there. And it wasn’t, but so, yeah, so what exactly what you’re saying is going, that person might be in your midst and you don’t even know it. So be praying and wondering, if I feel called out, who do I have that I am working with that at any point I can hand the baton off to you?
Drake Farmer — And maybe you don’t have that person, then you need to think differently. And maybe it’s networks and um organizations or your part of a denomination or you know have sort of having those conversations to figure out what is the global pipeline…
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Drake Farmer — …or the national, or states, or province, or whatever that is. But you we need to be thinking differently…
Rich Birch — Yeah. Oh, for sure.
Drake Farmer — …about who are who are you raising up and who is in the wings. And it may not be in your congregation. Because I know for us in our country and Canada, it’s like predominant churches are rural and small.
Drake Farmer — So you don’t have these multi-staffed circumstances.
Rich Birch — Yeah, they’re complex organizations. Yeah, yeah for sure.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I’ve been I’m kind of a peek in on a transition succession situation where they did exactly that where they they went and they they it was like, um and I, you know, my one encouragement was I like was like swing for the fences, like who, because they didn’t have somebody inside and they were like, who I’m like, who is that person? I was like swing for the fences. And so sure enough there, it’s not a done situation yet, but it’s like that person that one of the people, or actually two of the people that they reached out to, that were in there like, man, it would be amazing if we could get them to come and think about this.
Rich Birch — Both of them are engaged in the conversation.
Rich Birch — Like they’re like, oh, we’re actually talking with them, which it would have been easy on the outside to be like, no, there’s no way. They will not, you know. You just never know what God’s doing in in inside a leader and and so I’d encourage people that’s… This has been great. Drake, this has been super helpful. I appreciate you. Appreciate you coming on the show. Anything kind of final words you’d say just as we wrap up today’s conversation?
Drake Farmer — Yeah, I think um you know something we were talking about offline beforehand was just going like, you know, one of the things I’d really recommend is obviously some intentionality. But there might need to be you know an outside partner in your or you know from your organization.
Drake Farmer — Especially if you you know haven’t walked through this or those other things. And I mean, there are loads of of organizations that actually help consult and coach in this area.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes.
Drake Farmer — And you know and so I’d I’d offer a couple of things. I mean, one for us, like I’m i’m a part of the you know The Unstuck Church Group. um And so one of the things that we do, obviously, helping churches get unstuck.
Drake Farmer — And so, you know, that’s one one of those organizations that, you know, heavily… And actually, before I even joined The Unstuck team, we actually worked with Unstuck…
Drake Farmer — …as a church to kind of figure out with our multisite and stuff. And it was such a great process.
Drake Farmer — And then that evolved into something and you know so. I’m one of the Canadian reps so um but as an organization that’s a great partnership. The other thing too is I you know I just be happy like hey if it a phone call you know just as you know subjective, you know I’m not you know just looking to kind of pick pick my brain, happy to do that as well. um you know And and all all of that information, both like you want to learn more about you know Beulah, us as is a church. um If you want to kind of just understand a little bit more about Unstuck and what we do, or just want to connect with me, all that information you can find on drakefarmer.com. And you click there, it’s got the church link, it’s got Unstuck, and then there’s ah there’s a personal way you can reach out to me.
Drake Farmer — And I’d be happy to I’d happy to to connect and whatnot, but and but those could be some different options. And and to not be scared to go, hey, you know I we could figure this out alone. um But because of how important this decision is and how like you know um sometimes just getting some of that bench strength, even if you are in a larger organization, to have that outside perspective…
Drake Farmer — …to be able, that’s not closest to it, to help coach you and has some of the data and experience um finding… And maybe it’s not Unstuck. Maybe it’s you know, I know Daniel was a part of a cohort that walked through some of this. We were very intentional about that as well. And we also worked with Unstuck with some of our structural stuff to go you know… We as an organization as Unstuck to be happy to work with any churches, I’d be happy as a phone call. But it’s figuring out that partnership to know who could come alongside us. And maybe maybe maybe it’s a maybe it’s another church or another lead pastor or somebody who’s gone through it…
Drake Farmer — …um that you just kind of go, hey, could we have some coffee together, right? Like, it doesn’t need to be complicated. But there, I think there’s just some different layers there to just like, don’t walk that out alone. um And if you can’t find that, that network isn’t there and your denomination or a church or something like that, yeah, reach out to me and I would be happy to help make some connections, be it with Unstuck or maybe another church that I know that might fit well with your context to just kind of go like…
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.
Drake Farmer — …hey, we can learn from each other and that’d be amazing.
Rich Birch — Yeah, just to give a hearty amen, particularly on the ends. Well, Drake, that’s really super kind of you to say, hey, reach out. I’m happy to jump on the phone. I would encourage you to do that, friends, if you’re listening in, that Drake is actually that kind of leader. He is like, we’ll actually want to talk to you. So please do that. Just drop by drakefarmer.com. And then also to give a hearty amen to the Unstuck side of the equation. I know obviously Um, we haven’t actually talked about it publicly on the podcast, but you man, just so sad to see the passing of Tony Morgan and, um, and you know, what a, what a monster, uh, loss for the kingdom.
Rich Birch — What an incredible guy he was, but the thing, The Unstuck Group has always been a group of leaders. And, um, I want to give an extra endorsement for like for them in general…
Rich Birch — …on this specific issue on multi-site, you know, and if you’re, if you feel stuck, you should reach out to The Unstuck guys…
Rich Birch — …and they’re, you know, they do great work. Drake’s one of their, their coaches, but they got a lot of other folks too that can help.
Rich Birch — They’re just incredible organization for sure.
Drake Farmer — Yeah, and let me let me just say one thing because I just just, as you said to talking about with Tony, obviously, our prayers for us as a team and Tony’s family is is very much appreciated but also like, as as we were meeting, it was a testament to Tony’s leadership…
Drake Farmer — …that he had been building a team, he didn’t want it to be about him.
Drake Farmer — He assumed he had another five to 10 years, and that was his plan.
Drake Farmer — But because he was building a team and was handing things and has you know wasn’t all thrown around him, there is a team now that that he was moving people into these roles…
Drake Farmer — …that they are now just stepping into this. So during this season, that the legacy that Tony started with Unstuck and the work that they do with churches, it’s the model. It’s not the person.
Drake Farmer — Right. And you get that same benefit if it was Amy or Tony or any other one that would be working with the church and all the infrastructure built around it.
Drake Farmer — um You know, that Unstuck will continue to move because because of what he built and and how he raised up leaders.
Rich Birch — Yeah. So good. Yeah, that’s obviously, that is, it’s funny. I didn’t even think of that. It’s an interesting angle on the whole succession thing.
Rich Birch — Obviously we’re, you know, it’s unfortunate that when there, but that kind of transition can happen in…
Rich Birch — …you know, lots of organizations where like, you know, nobody, you know, Tony didn’t think that day, was at work in his backyard, that that would have been kind of the beginning of the end.
Rich Birch — And so, you know, and that unfortunately can happen. So, Drake, I really appreciate it. Again, that’s drakefarmer.com. um If you’re, if you want more information, please drop by and see him and connect with him um and you can connect with the church and all that from there. So it’s a great, a great starting point. Thanks so much, Drake. I appreciate you being here and be on the show today.
Drake Farmer — My pleasure.
