Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re continuing our conversations with executive pastors from prevailing churches, unpacking what leaders like you shared in the National Executive Pastor Survey, so you can lead forward with clarity.

Today we’re joined by Paul Alexander, Executive Pastor at Sun Valley Community Church and Senior Consultant with The Unstuck Group. With more than 25 years of ministry experience and nearly 15 years at Sun Valley, Paul brings a blend of practitioner insight and coaching wisdom. Sun Valley is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with six physical locations, a prison campus, and more expansion on the way. In this conversation, Paul helps unpack one of the most pressing themes from the National Executive Pastor Survey: staff health, culture, and organizational structure.

Is your church clear on vision and strategy but still struggling to move forward? Do you sense tension or fatigue beneath the surface of your staff team? Paul offers candid, practical guidance on how leaders can cultivate both healthy and high-performing teams.

To learn more about Sun Valley Community Church, visit sunvalleycc.com. For resources on staff health, structure, and strategy, explore theunstuckgroup.com or email Paul directly.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really glad that you’ve decided to tune in. We’re doing a special series here this month where we’re looking at the results of a national survey that we did of executive pastors across the country. And we’ve pulled in some leading XPs from prevailing churches to help us think through these issues. Like we’re sitting across the table, if you talk about this problem, they want to help you with that. And today it’s our honor, our privilege really to have Paul Alexander with us. He is the executive pastor at Sun Valley Church for over 10 years. He has 25 years of experience. He’s a senior consultant with Unstuck, I think for 13 years. And he’s worked with all kinds of churches on health assessment, strategic planning. Sun Valley, if you don’t know this church, you’re living under a rock. fantastic church in Arizona, six physical locations, if I’m counting correctly, plus in prison, plus online. It’s repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Paul, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, Rich, glad to be with you. Hopefully the conversation can help your listeners, man.

Rich Birch — I really appreciate that. Why why don’t you fill in the picture about Sun Valley? I know we’ve had you on in the past. You should go back and listen, friends, but kind of give us the Sun Valley picture. Kind of tell us a little bit about that to set some context today.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, man, been here now for almost 15 years. It’s wild to think back. When I first joined the team, it was one location, 10 acres, one exit, one entrance.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Paul Alexander — And, you know, there’s a lid to what you can do with that. And so we had originally went multi-site because we had to go multi-site. You know, the mission that Jesus gave the church to help more people meet him and grow up in their friendship with him. We had a lid to that with the space we were in. And so we had to go multi-site. It wasn’t cool. It wasn’t cute. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t an experiment. It was like, if we’re going to obey Jesus, we don’t have an option.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Paul Alexander — And so over the years, we’ve had the opportunity to add new locations. And, yeah, six physical locations, one in a prison. Our next prison campus opens up Q1. We grand open our Chandler location in March, and we break ground on San Tan in May. So, yeah, man, fun times, lots of people meeting Jesus.

Rich Birch — So multi-sites not dead at Sun Valley.

Paul Alexander — Man, multi-site’s not dead in America. Yeah.

Rich Birch — I know. And it’s true, right? It’s one of those like, people are like, oh, I don’t know. That’s an old idea. I’m like, that’s not what I’m seeing. I’m like, gosh, there’s so many prevailing churches like Sun Valley that are just doubling down. That’s that’s fantastic.

Rich Birch — Well, looking forward to today’s conversation. So friends, you’ve joined us actually for within, what did we ask, two questions that were about fears for next year and or for this year, 2026, you caught me. We recorded this late in 2025.

Rich Birch — And we’re talking today about the biggest fear. 24.8% of all respondents identified staff health, organizational structure, morale, succession, leadership – the people issues as a primary fear heading into this year. In fact, and then a separate question we asked about data and insight. Where are you lacking some of that? Almost 9% of respondents answered that they’re looking for better data on staff pipeline and org chart and leadership development, these sort of things.

Rich Birch — When you combine them together what does that mean? Nearly three in ten surface staff related tension as a defining pressure point for 2026. And when I was thinking about this issue, I thought of no one better than Paul to pull on and to have this conversation with. So Paul, when you look at the churches across the country, you interact with a lot of churches both just because you’re a great person and through Unstuck, and you’re and Sun Valley’s a leading church and people will ask you questions all the time. Where do you think staff health breaks down the most and why is that? Why is this such a tension for us as we lead from our seats?

Paul Alexander — Yeah, well, to your point, Rich, it comes up repeatedly with my work with Unstuck with churches. It’s not uncommon to do a health assessment, strategic planning with the church, and you walk out of the room and they have great clarity on vision, on where they’re going next. They have great clarity on strategy, like how they’re actually going to pull this off and do it.

Paul Alexander — And yet you walk out of the room and the lid to move towards that vision, actually obey Jesus and do what Jesus has commissioned and command commanded them to do, the lid is the culture of the team. And the team culture and the team structure is what’s holding them back from going where Jesus wants them to go.

Paul Alexander — Which we shouldn’t be surprised by this, frankly. that’s That’s the organizational side of how that shows up. This shows up in our own life personally. So on a micro scale, what’s preventing you and I from actually following Jesus and what He’s calling us to do in 2026? Well, it’s not Jesus’s problem. The problem is not with him. The problem usually with us.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Paul Alexander — The problem is with how we structure our life, our family, our time, maybe something in our own heart and in the culture of our own heart and our families.

Paul Alexander — And so on on a macro scalele scale in the church, it’s not a surprise that this shows up. Most most churches have a tendency to run on a pendulum, Rich, of either being a really high performing team or a very, very healthy team. And at Unstuck, we want we want staff teams to be both very healthy and very high performing.

Paul Alexander — The the problem is most churches, their staff swing through that pendulum from one side to the other. And so, and you’ve seen this repeatedly, where it’s take ground and in just do the next thing. And they’re very project oriented and destination oriented, and they have a tendency to not really care about the soul of the team, the health of the team, and they’re caring much more about the the destination they’re chasing.

Paul Alexander — Or they’re sitting around looking at each other, praying for one another, kumbaya-ing together, and they’re neglecting the actual call that God’s put on their life. It’s not just a personal holiness, but to invite others people other people to know Jesus as well.

Paul Alexander — And while that’s an over-exaggeration, fundamentally, that’s very true of what happens with staff teams. And so, yeah, walking away from a strategic planning with the church, you’re thinking, oh, they’ve got everything they need.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — They just don’t have the culture to pull it off. their Their staff culture is going to prevent them from going where God wants them to go. Or they’ve hired ah a lot of doers on the team and they don’t actually have leaders. So they’ve hired people to do ministry instead of lead ministry. Or they don’t really have a development pipeline. You know, they don’t have a plan to coach up and build up people that the Lord’s already entrusted to them right underneath their nose, to invite them into leadership in the church. And so, yeah, there’s some overarching things that are common.

Rich Birch — Yeah, so when I saw this came out, I wasn’t surprised by this result. We’ve seen similar results in past years. But whenever I look at this fear that leaders have, I’m reminded what our mutual friend Jenni Catrin says. She talks about senior leaders are, we think our staff culture is better than it actually is. Like from our perspective, sitting as an executive pastor, lead pastor, we look around and we’re like, man, this is a great place to work. But that’s not necessarily the case with our people.

Rich Birch — Sticking with this idea of like high performing and healthy, when you think about Sun Valley or the churches you coach, what are some practical rhythms or structures that you’ve put in place or seen put in place that really help try to do both of those things. Cause I think that’s, I think that’s ultimately what honors the Lord is like, we do want to be high performing. We, the mission’s massive. Like, gosh, we got to get out and reach some people, but we, we don’t want to drive over our people to get there.

Paul Alexander — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Help us understand what does that practical, some of those practical rhythms look like.

Paul Alexander — Well, I don’t I don’t think a lot of XPs are going like what I’m about to say…

Rich Birch — Uh-oh.

Paul Alexander — …but you you cannot legislate health. You can’t. You can’t build enough guidelines. You can’t build enough policies. You can’t make people be healthy. You also can’t lead a healthy organization unless you yourself are healthy. It’s that’s a just it’s just a fact. You can’t take your family somewhere you haven’t been.

Paul Alexander — You disciple people, to use a Bible word for a second, you can’t disciple your own children and your own family and people close to you by intention or neglect. We do that all the time, and unless you have something to actually give them. And so this is why even in the Old Testament, you know God gives the law and we realize we can’t live up to the law. And so it honestly only shows our own imperfection. Right. And so God you know, Jesus says, “Well, hold on a second. The Sabbath was made for man. Man wasn’t made for the Sabbath.”

Paul Alexander — And so um what does that mean? It means, I think, as executive staff, senior staff in the church, you actually have to lead with some moral authority in this area. And so people are going to watch if if they get an email from you at 11 o’clock at night, that tells them what’s expected of them.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — Without you ever even saying it, you’re telling them what’s expected. If you’re texting them after work hours, so to speak, and it’s not an emergency, it actually, you know, it could probably wait till tomorrow, but you’re having it right now because it’s important to you, and you don’t have the personal self-control to be able to not have that conversation with that staff member at that time.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Paul Alexander — You’re telling them how they’re supposed to behave. They’re watching you just again, leadership so much like parenting. And I don’t want to minimize this, but children watch their parents and they naturally adhere to and take on the behaviors of their parents and the family unit that they grow up in.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.

Paul Alexander — And culture a lot like that. It’s way more caught than taught. And so the leaders of the executive staff and senior staff, they’ve got to lead with moral authority, not moral perfection. We’re not going to see that this side of seeing Jesus, right? Not moral superiority. We’re not better than anybody. But just to be able to say, hey, man, if if everybody at my church and on my staff. If they manage their time the way I manage my time, if they manage their finances the way I manage my finances, if they used alcohol the way I use alcohol, or if they use the internet or social media the way I do, if they traded their… would my church be more of what Jesus wants it to be or less?

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s so good.

Paul Alexander — And so there’s a moral authority component to this. They got to model this. Okay.

Paul Alexander — Now, practically, Rich, because you know, okay, what does it actually mean? Take your time off.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — Like that sounds so silly, but I mean, I remember as a young guy in ministry, my my wife was working Monday through Friday. Friday was supposed to be my day off. I’m not the kind of guy that’s going to sit around and like watch Oprah on Friday. Or like, you know, just snack and binge watch Netflix or something like that. That’s not how God wired me up. And so I would just go into the office.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — And I’m like, my my wife’s working. Well, we don’t have kids. um I’m going to go get some stuff done. I’m going to move the ball forward.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Paul Alexander — And I remember the XP I was working with on the senior staff at the time came in to get something out of the office. And he saw me and he’s like, Paul, what are you what are you doing? And so I do the whole, my wife’s working and I’m not going to sit around and watch Netflix, blah, blah, blah. He’s like… he gave me a gift. He said, Paul, if you don’t take every day off between now and the end of the year, don’t bother coming in in January.

Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Paul Alexander — And looking back, that high challenge was a tremendous gift, to begin to teach a young man in ministry that had a propensity to drive hard to learn how to actually slow down and enjoy my life and receive from the Lord.

Rich Birch — That’s interesting.

Paul Alexander — And so, um yeah, take your day off. It sounds so silly.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. No, it’s good.

Paul Alexander — I get a report on my desk once a year, Rich, of all of our staff, even multiple campuses, all that, who’s taking their time off and who hasn’t taken their time off. And it’s not uncommon for me to have a conversation in January to say, hey, dude, if you don’t take all your time off this year, we’re going to have a problem. Because you’re no good burning out. The Lord needs you in the game for the long run.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Paul Alexander — And I need you in the game for the long run. Sun Valley needs you in the game for the long run.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Right.

Paul Alexander — Your family needs that, and you can’t self destruct. So.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I had a similar interaction early on in ministry where I had a senior leader say to me, it with a similar kind of tone, don’t forget, take your day off is on the same list as don’t kill someone. Like, you know, which always stuck with me where I was like, you know, okay. And he said it in a funny kind of like, but but the message was was clear, right?

Paul Alexander — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Same kind of thing. Hey, we, and I don’t know that I’ve always lived by that.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, sure.

Rich Birch — Are there other behaviors that you, you know, in a similar way would lean in. I think the fact that you’re pushing on, okay, as us as senior leaders, are we setting the pace with the health of our organizations? Lean a little bit more in on that for us.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, sure. So a couple of practical things that any leader can actually make their decision to start doing today. Establish a finish line. In some regards, you know, when is ministry ever really done?

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — Well, when 7.5 billion people on the planet know Jesus, we’re done, right? So it’s one of those, the poor will have you with you you’ll have with you always. There’s never going to be a done moment. So you got to choose each day when you’re done. And if you don’t choose it, someone else will choose it for you.

Paul Alexander — And so talk with your family, figure it out. And there may be a moving target from day to day and what the rhythm of your family is and the rhythm of your ministry is the Lord’s entrusted to you. But you have to personally establish when’s the finish line. I’m going to turn my phone off. I’m gonna turn my email off. I’m going to mute this or whatever. And unless something’s burning down, I’m not going to I’m not going to jump in. Simple things.

Paul Alexander — Marriage retreats. We started experimenting some time ago with marriage retreats for our staff at Sun Valley. And so like everybody would say, it’s a good thing for people’s marriages to get better. And sometimes we’ll do that for our people in our churches. And we just thought, well, gosh, what if we did that for our staff? You know, if the marriages of our staff got better, would the ministries that the Lord’s entrusted to them get better? Of course they would.

Rich Birch — Of course they would, yeah.

Paul Alexander — So we just started doing a marriage retreat couple times a year for our staff.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Paul Alexander — We invite, you know, 10 to 15 couples. We have a professional counselor that we pay for that runs the thing. And we we just do that as a as a gift to our staff. Because we think, if our staff marriages get better, the ministry that the Lord’s entrusted to them will get better.

Paul Alexander — We do sabbaticals every seven years for our full-time director level staff and up. And there’s a period of time that they get and a financial allowance they get. And they think about it in three in three different buckets, like professional development, personal development, and just family. And and ultimately we want them to rest so they can minister from a from a full cup, you know?

Paul Alexander — And ah some time ago, we actually made the decision. It didn’t cost us anything, Rich, that even our full-time staff, no matter what their level in the organization was. So for example, a full-time administrative assistant. If they’re full-time, every seven years they get a sabbatical. We give them…

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Paul Alexander — …yeah, you’re full-time admin at Sun Valley. You get, now the scale of it’s a little different.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Paul Alexander — We just give them a month off with no financial allowance, but we give a month off every seven years to take at one lump sum…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Paul Alexander — …to get out and refresh their soul and enjoy their life a little bit. What’s that really cost us? Nothing, but time.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Paul Alexander — Nothing.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — And so, yeah, there’s some real tactical things that you can do to invest in your team. Again, you can’t make them be healthy people, but you can kind of roll the carpet out and pave the way for them to be healthy people.

Rich Birch — I love that. That’s some real practical examples. I love what you’ve you’ve outlined there and been you know super practical. That’s, yeah, that’s fantastic. I get the sabbatical question actually quite a bit. I think churches wrestle with that and they you know they they think, oh, you know how should we do that? So you do, kind of like what we would typically think of as a sabbatical at director and above, but then everyone else does kind of this one one month off. That’s great. And they do they have to submit a plan for the sabbatical ahead of time? Some churches will do that where they have to kind of define, hey, this is how we’re going to do. Just give us a little more detail on that.

Paul Alexander — Yeah. We’re not uber religious about it, Rich.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Paul Alexander — We, we, we, there is a plan and their supervisor talks through their plan with them…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Paul Alexander — …because there’s a financial allowance that follows that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Paul Alexander — So yeah, they have the conversation ahead of time. As a representative of the board, I actually sign off on all those sabbaticals just to make sure they’re thinking about and they’re thinking…

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — …intelligently about how they want to spend their time. But functionally, to be honest, like you and your wife just went on vacation, right?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Paul Alexander — If our staff went on vacation for like an entire sabbatical and sat on the beach for a month or two, and they came back a little bit more rested, and they’d read a couple of books and spent time with the Lord…

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — …and they walked and prayed and fasted and enjoyed their life a little bit, they’d probably come back a little healthier.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s great.

Paul Alexander — So I don’t have strong feelings about it, man. Rest, enjoy your life.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.

Paul Alexander — Yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. I love that. I want to loop back on one thing you talked about earlier. You talked about hiring or or are the way our staff position themselves as doers versus leaders. I think this is a critical Ephesians 4, how we’re supposed to be equipping our people. But I see way too many of our team members, I see us fall into this all the time where we just slip into doing. Coach us around that. What difference does that make around cultures in our organizations?

Paul Alexander — Well, yeah. Wow. Now you’re starting to talk about where accountability comes into play in culture, right? And where culture gets violated.

Paul Alexander — So it’s not uncommon. So I still, at the size we are, director level and up, I still at least have a phone conversation interview with every single director level hire and up about our culture as they’re joining the team here. And if they do join the team, we go through net new staff orientation. Once a quarter, Chad, the lead pastor and myself, spend a half a day with all of our new staff and talk through our culture and our philosophy of ministry and our strategy and all that stuff.

Paul Alexander — And frankly, it’s just a time to hang out have a meal together and create some relational accessibility. Because most these people I’m not going to work with day to day.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — But I want them to know that we care about them, love them, and they’re they’re part of the family now. And so we we don’t hire people that aren’t absolutely fantastic, incredibly gifted people.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — And it’s easy to compliment everybody in the room.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — Hey man, glad you’re on the team. Whether I hired you or somebody else hired you, I know you’re awesome because we don’t hire people that aren’t awesome. And you were gifted, you’re gifted. Someone saw something in you. We invited you to the team. But here’s the deal. You’re no longer going to be evaluated on how awesome you are. Now that you’re on the team—congratulations—you’re going to be evaluated how awesome you can make everybody else.

Rich Birch — So good.

Paul Alexander — And so your job and how great you are and gifted you are and skilled you are, that’s what got you in the room. What’s going to keep you in the room is your ability to make everybody else just as incredible as you. And so we just say that from the very beginning.

Paul Alexander — And, you know, a lot of churches, their ministry staff kind of think, OK, I have to get all these volunteers in place to help them accomplish my ministry. At Sun Valley, we flipped that upside down. And the hero of the ministry at Sun Valley is the volunteer. We’re helping the church actually be the church. The staff’s role is to be a servant, to help people find their gifting, their place, their calling. And real leaders who are getting paid real money that attend your churches, um they want to solve big problems. They don’t want to just push a broom. Now, occasionally you run into the CEO or the general or whatever, who’s like, I just want to push a broom to help me remain humble. Great. We can we have a lot of brooms you can push.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Paul Alexander — But most people are competent, skilled, gifted, educated people. And they want to be called into something that’s big, and where they feel like they’re making a real difference. And so, yeah, our job as a staff is to call them into that, tee them up for that, support them in that, and let them run. Not let them run within the boundaries of our strategy and our culture and our vision, but let them run. So, but we’ve got to paint the riverbanks for them.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s really good. I love that. You know, kind of a related issue is how how is Sun Valley ensuring that you’ve got the right people in the right seats? What does that look like in your system? Like, how are you, like, what’s the what’s the cadence of, you know, regular reporting and like goal setting?

Paul Alexander — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And, you know, how are you holding people accountable? What does that what does that look like? I realize that could be like a whole episode in of itself…

Paul Alexander — Sure.

Rich Birch — …but give us kind of a thumbnail version of that.

Paul Alexander — Yeah. Thumbnail. I mean, at the end of the day, I’ll give you the, how it happens, but, besides the hiring process and recruiting process, that stuff matters a lot. Right. So you’re inviting people to something that they’re actually gifted and called to. But at the end of the day, um it’s really results, Rich. The Bible way to say that is fruit.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — OK, for all of our listeners who are high on the theology side of things, I can sympathize with you. I went to Bible school, too. Really, it’s fruit. And when you are in a place, when your staff are in a place where they’re playing to their strengths and their gifting, and they’re in a place where they’re not overreaching and trying to attain a different role, and they’re not talking about career path, they’re just content to be the person and play the part in the body of the Lord’s gifted and call them to to play, they’re going to have more fun and they’re going to produce more fruit.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Paul Alexander — It’s just a fact. And so when when you see all this striving and, you know, this ambition to like, I want more, I want more, I want more. It’s a very American, Western idea, right? And the biblical way of doing that would be, hey, well why don’t you be faithful with what the Lord’s entrusted with you today? And when he sees fit to entrust more to you, guess what? He probably will.

Rich Birch — He will.

Paul Alexander — There’s probably going be some stray arrow out of the battle that was never even intended to hit that guy. It’s going to find just the right place in the chink in the armor. And you’re going to ascend to the throne at the right time when the Lord wants you to. So, you know, relax. Do what the Lord’s called you to do today.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — Be faithful in that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — And he’ll entrust more to you when he’s ready.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — So that’s a big deal. that it may sound ah like a contrite, a little bit Bible answer to that. But when your staff are personally in a place where they’re doing what God’s called them to do, and they’re they’re very sober-minded about that, they’re going to have more fun. That’s really important. They’re go to have more fun in ministry. It’s going to be more fulfilling and they’re going to produce more fruit.

Paul Alexander — Now, how’s that work its way out with what you’re talking about? We have an annual run of strategic planning that we do, both senior staff and then at the campus level. And that we refresh that every single year. Out of that come real clear objectives where the Lord’s calling us to go. Then goals, professional goals are set around that at the campus level. And then that kind of trickles down. That all gets into review systems. There’s monthly one-on-ones where they’re talking about the performance side of things.

Paul Alexander — But it’s really normal, Rich, where if you and I were working with one another and I was reporting to you, you’d say, hey, Paul, what’s going on with you and Lisa? And you’d be asking about my daughters and you’d be asking about my sons. And we’d be talking about life and marriage and family. And and what’s the Lord doing in your life? What’s he saying to you these days? You know, and you know where’s he challenging you? Where’s he encouraging you? So they’re very natural, normal, that part of things there. You’d probably pray for me actually in that meeting that one-on-one.

Paul Alexander — And then we talk about, okay, how are we doing with our goals? What what are the measurables? What are the setbacks? Because there’s always setbacks.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — And what are the things that went faster than you thought they would go? And you’re finding real real traction.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — And then my your job as a supervisor would be, how do you get roadblocks out of the way for me to be successful?

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — How do you fuel things that I need fueled so I can be successful and and reach my goals?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Paul Alexander — So yeah, does that make sense?

Rich Birch — That makes total sense. So I, you know, in other contexts, I’ve said results matter because the work that you do matters so much. Like and, and we, and we, we want to think about results. We want to think about fruit. What percentage of, or you know, in a round sense of the team at Sun Valley has like a number or a metric or a like they can measure, it’s not like qualitative, like, oh, things are better. It’s like, no, no, we know. I know whether this is working or not. What percentage of your people you think have a metric like that they they think about on a regular basis?

Paul Alexander — All of them.

Rich Birch — Love it. Tell us about that. I think this is going to be mind blowing for leaders of churches who do not think about these things. And I know, you know, there’s people out there who, who they they haven’t wrestled with this idea. Unpack that a little bit more.

Paul Alexander — Yeah. So, I mean, okay. So if I say, I want my marriage to get better this year, we’ll go real personal for a second.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Paul Alexander — I want to get my marriage. That’s wonderful. Who doesn’t want their marriage to get better? How are you going to do that?

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — That that just doesn’t magically happen. You don’t drift towards relational intimacy with your spouse.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Paul Alexander — What you do is you drift apart. That’s what happens.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — Absence doesn’t make the grow heart grow fonder. It makes it wander.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Paul Alexander — And so, you know, you’ve got to figure out, okay, how many date nights am I going to do? How much am I going to budget towards this? Are we going to do an annual retreat as a husband and a spouse together, maybe a marriage retreat? Are we going to go on vacation? What are the conversations we feel like we need to lean into? Do we need some do we need some coaching? Rich, if you’re a professional counselor, do I need to go to you and get some some input and some professional coaching? Because goodness gracious, you can see some things that I don’t see because I’m in the fray of it day in and day out.

Paul Alexander — So yeah, we’ll get real tactical and say, what book are you going to read? How many of those books are you going to read? What podcast?

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — Are you going listen to the unSeminary podcast? You know. What are you going to do to to grow and in your marriage this year or as a leader. And so, yeah, if you can’t measure it, then you can’t actually do it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — And then it gets down to opinions and, you know, everybody’s got one of those. So.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Alright. I imagine imagine I’m an executive pastor you meet at a conference or you’re somewhere and you’re at an airport lounge, and they’re church of a thousand people, maybe 1500 people. They’ve got 10 staff and they’re sensing that, man, there’s some misalignment, but it’s it’s at the level of like, I think there might be a problem here. I’m not entirely sure. I feel like there’s cracks starting to happen in the staff culture, but it’s not like a giant fizzer. It’s just like things just don’t feel right. What would be some of the first steps that you would suggest a leader take to try to get clarity on actually where things are at with their staff team…

Paul Alexander — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …you know, in the next 90 days kind of thing?

Paul Alexander — Yeah, that’s a good question. Okay, so first of all, I’d say, and this may sound, I mean, play Captain Obvious for a second, don’t ignore that inclination.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Paul Alexander — So the Holy Spirit is is is impressing upon you, something doesn’t smell right, then it probably doesn’t smell right.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Paul Alexander — Don’t bury that. Don’t avoid that. Avoiding something you know you have to solve is never going to make that situation better, ever.

Rich Birch — That’s so true.

Paul Alexander — And so don’t avoid it. Go with that feeling. Lean into it a little bit and and begin. Why? Why do I feel this way? What is what am I sensing that needs to be solved? Because my hunch is they’re anticipating something. If they are a good intuitive leader, they’re probably anticipating something before it’s going to happen.

Paul Alexander — And so structure is always a lid to growth in a church. Churches always need to restructure. This is really important. So once you get a structure, it’s not like, oh we’re going to be with this structure for the next 15 years.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — And if it’s a growing church, you’re always going to need to restructure. And that’s just normal. Get used to it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — It’s just part of what it is.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Paul Alexander — And so I think you’ve got decipher, is it a structure issue or is it a culture issue? That that’s, you know, Wwhat am I sensing that needs to be actually needs to be solved? If it’s a culture issue, where is there a violation of your culture taking place, and how do you help it get better? Maybe you haven’t defined what your culture is.

Rich Birch — Right.

Paul Alexander — Maybe you can’t actually really articulate it. Maybe you haven’t written it down, trained it. Maybe you have not filmed 5 to 10 minute videos for every new staff member to to onboarding to actually understand your cultural distinctives. Maybe you’ve not embedded that into your annual reviews and actually, you know at review time, you’re actually reviewing me on how we’re doing, how I’m doing with our staff culture.

Paul Alexander — So maybe that’s something you need to just kind of look in the mirror and say, you know what, as a leader, I have the power to change that. And I’m going to get that better this next year. We’re going really clear about what our staff culture is.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Paul Alexander — And then we’re going embed that and train it. If it’s a structural thing, is it truly a structural thing or do you have one or two players that just aren’t playing their part? You know, you’ve got ah this wonderful body the Lord’s put together. He talks about the church being the body of Christ, this wonderful body but where we’re limping because our ankle, we got a bum ankle. And the reality is we either need to rest it, you know, so we can get it healed up. We need to maybe get some repair done to it, or we need to like reconstruct that thing. We need a new ankle.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Paul Alexander — All of those are fine answers. And I think just being honest about the team that we have and everybody playing in the right place. And then structurally, you start to get into span of care and you know do we have the right number of staff? Those are real answers you can really get. When we do staffing and structure with churches at the Unstuck Group, there are real healthy benchmarks. There are real healthy financial numbers that are good benchmarks, you know. If you’re spending more than 50 cents on the dollar on your staffing, you should ask yourself why.

Paul Alexander — You know, if you have more than your staffing, you’re, you know, beyond one to 75 and you’re creeping into an area that’s really unhealthy. You know, I’ve seen churches that are staffed like one full time staff member for every 30 attenders at the church.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Paul Alexander — And you’re just like. It’s sad, frankly, because the Lord’s called us to so much more. And um so those are those are like the basic science side of things that need to be changed. You know, if you’re not clear about who your senior staff is, if you got, if your senior staff, like your executive staff, are making decisions about like the color of the carpet, and they’re making decisions that that are low-level decisions, then you kind of got to look in the mirror and say, boy, are we training our staff that all big decisions have to come to us? Or are we pushing decisions down and actually teaching people how to lead and make decisions? So myriad of things.

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s so good. One of, in last year’s, kind of rundown of, you know, most listened to podcasts, Amy from the Unstuck Group, hers, I think was our second most listened to podcast. And she, she dove in deep on exactly what we were just talking about their, friends. You should go back in the archives, find that episode. It will, it’ll, you know, all that structure stuff.

Rich Birch — And I would say on that, particularly on structure and some of those benchmarks, I think too many of us think our church is like this precious, it’s so different than every other church out there. And and and that’s true. It is a unique body. There’s a there’s one way that that is true. But in this way, there are actually a lot of commonalities you can learn from other churches and gain wisdom from folks like Paul who have done this before and talked with lots of churches. So don’t don’t be in isolation about this, Paul. This has been an incredibly helpful. I’ve got a page of notes and other questions I wanted to ask as we were going through. Oh, I want to talk about that. Oh, I want to talk about that.

Rich Birch — But I know you’ve got other things to do than be on our podcast. But as you’re thinking about the 2026, the year coming up here, what’s a question or two that you’re wrestling with that you’re thinking through? It doesn’t have to be on what we just talked about there. But just as you think about the future of Sun Valley, what are some things that you’re thinking about going into this year?

Paul Alexander — Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, we pressure we’ve deal with pressure points just like every church does, right? Frankly, the pressure points we’re dealing with, we’re going through a season of a couple of years of pretty significant growth. A lot of people needing Jesus. last This is the first time in back-to-back years we baptized more than 1500 people, you know, in back-to-back years. And so there’s a huge responsibility that our growth, our front end growth is beginning to outpace our engagement. Things like people engaging in groups and building meaningful friendships that are around God’s word or, engaging and volunteering and being the church, not just coming to church, right? And a giving, learning to be generous, generous and steward with the Lord’s entrusted to them. Kind of these markers that we see of people who are actually beginning to look like Jesus. They’re not just, you know, you know, attending church and trying to figure Jesus out a little bit.

Paul Alexander — And so in a lot of ways, we need a bigger boat. We’ve got multiple campuses that are doing two services on Saturday and three services on Sunday. And we’ve, we’ve got to get some bigger rooms. And you know, the other side of it is is growth sometimes can grow faster than our ability to grow leaders. I mean, you think about your own personal leadership, Rich. I mean, how long has it taken you to become the leader you are today?

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Not overnight. Not in 18 months.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, your whole life.

Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, the answer is your whole life.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Paul Alexander — And so there’s definitely been crucible moments. My hunch is if we unpack your leadership journey, there’s been crucible moments where the Lord has ah stretched and grown you in unique ways and unique seasons because of pressure points that you went through. And so um we’re figuring out how do we accelerate leadership in in our staff?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Paul Alexander — And you you accelerate leadership not by by giving resources, but by constricting resources. Because leaders always figured out and grow through constriction moments.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Paul Alexander — And so giving stretch assignments, all those kind of fun things. So yeah, we deal with pressure points just like everybody else does. I mean, everybody’s like, oh, I’d love to have that problem. I know you would. It’s a wonderful problem to have. It’s still a problem because we don’t want to become a lid to more people meeting Jesus in 2026. You know, by us not solving something that’s in our control to solve.

Rich Birch — Yeah. In other contexts, I’ve talked about platinum problems. Those are are great problems, but they’re still problems with things we have to wrestle with. And and friends, if you’re not tracking with Sun Valley, you should be, or Paul or the Unstuck Group, these are all organizations you should be getting a chance to kind of follow along with. If people want to kind of connect with the church, get a better sense, follow along with your story, where do we want to send them online? Tell us about that. And then also Unstuck Group. I want to make sure we we send people there too.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, Unstuck Group is super easy to find. Unstuckgroup.com. The listeners can email me at [email protected]. That’s the easiest way to get me, frankly. The easiest, cleanest way to get me if someone has a question or wants to follow up on something personally. I’m happy to do that, man.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much, Paul. I appreciate you being here today and and really looking forward to seeing what happens in 2026 at Sun Valley. Take care, man.

Paul Alexander — Yeah, glad to, man. Thanks for the invitation. Hope the conversation is helpful.

 

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re sitting down with an executive pastor from a prevailing church to unpack what leaders like you shared in the National Executive Pastor Survey, so you can lead forward with clarity.

We’re joined by Jeremy Peterson, Executive Pastor at One Church, a fast-growing multisite church with five physical locations across New Hampshire and a strong online presence. Jeremy is also a key leader behind the Executive Pastor Summit (XPS), investing in the health and effectiveness of second-chair leaders across the country. In this conversation, Jeremy reflects on insights from the National Executive Pastor Survey and shares practical wisdom for strengthening one of the most critical—and often fragile—relationships in the church: the partnership between the lead pastor and executive pastor.

Is your relationship with your lead pastor thriving, strained, or somewhere in between? Are you feeling neutral when you know the relationship needs to be strong? Jeremy offers clear, experience-tested guidance on building trust, maintaining alignment, and leading with integrity in the second chair.

To learn more about One Church and reach out to Jeremy, visit church.one. For executive pastors looking to grow in their leadership, learn more about the Executive Pastor Summit at xpsummit.org.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We are in the middle of these special episodes we’ve been doing where we’re reflecting back on what you said in the National Executive Pastor Survey. And what we’re doing is bringing executive pastors from prevailing churches on to really help us wrestle through some of the things that we saw and ultimately to provide some help for you as you launch here into 2026. Today, it’s our privilege to have the executive pastor of all executive pastors, Jeremy Peterson with us from One Curch. It’s a fantastic church, a multi-site church in Northeastern United States. They have five, if I’m counting correctly, outpost locations in New Hampshire, plus church online, plus Jeremy’s involved in a leading XPS, a great conference for executive pastors and and and and campus pastors. And he does all kinds of amazing stuff. So Jeremy, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Jeremy Peterson — It’s quite the introduction. Thanks, Rich, for having me.

Rich Birch — This is the problem you become you become a more than one-time guest. And I’m like, what do I say? He’s amazing. That’s what you should say. Tell us a little bit about One Church, to set the context for people, understand a little bit about your background, where you’re at.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, so I spent the first 17 years in ministry in Texas, and I’ve been here for 12 and a half years now, and it’s it’s pretty wild. I said I would never be on the mission field. I grew up as a missionary kid, and so being here, I really feel like I am on the mission field. I’ve been here 12 and a half years, and we just celebrated like our 4,000th person that’s been baptized…

Rich Birch — Amazing.

Jeremy Peterson — …since I’ve been here. And so it’s just it’s just been quite the ride being a part of what God’s doing and just trying not to mess it up.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, this thing we’re looking at today to kind of kick the conversation off, there was a a stat that jumped out to me from our study. 22.32% of executive pastors, that’s just over one in five, are either uncertain or experiencing strain with their lead pastor. Now, I know that that’s a minority number. It’s not like two-thirds are like struggling with this. It’s it’s It’s just over one in five.

Rich Birch — But to me, that’s still a hauntingly large number that one in five executive pastors we would bump into and say, I’m not sure that that relationship is working well. So I’d love to start the conversation there. Why do you think the lead pastor and executive pastor relationship, why is there kind of tension there? Why would people be experiencing that? And and personally, I think, man, that relationship’s got to be strong for the the health of the church. But help us understand, maybe set the problem up for us. What what do you think is going on there when that relationship is strained?

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, it’s interesting to stat, Rich, because talking to a lot of executive pastors around the country like you do, I feel like that number may even be a little bit higher.

Rich Birch — Right.

I think so surveys are incredibly helpful, but I feel like one of the biggest challenges or conversations that I’m having on a regular basis with other executive pastors is I’m not sure the lead pastor trusts me. Sometimes it’s like, I’m not sure that I trust my lead pastor.

Jeremy Peterson — And so I think there’s definitely a tension, which I think it’s, there there are two roles that are so incredibly crucial for the church, right. You have either the cedar senior or lead pastor, who’s really the one casting the vision. And you’ve got the executive pastor in that second role or that second chair, that’s really called to like help execute on the vision. And when there’s like, trust or mistrust, lack of trust, whatever it may be, that can cause a lot of, i think, tension and frustration if it’s not if it’s not addressed in some capacity.

Rich Birch — Yeah. And I do get these calls as well. I sometimes what happens is i’ll I’ll be talking to an executive pastor, maybe I’m on site and they’ll pull me aside and they’ll say, you know, I just love my lead pastor. So fantastic. They’re an amazing vision-caster. They do such a great job. And then they they rattle off all this real positive stuff. And then they’ll say, but can you help me get better at this relationship how do I… Or it’ll be a lead pastor will pull me aside and say oh i just i love the executive pastor here and they’ll same thing rattle off that person’s so good at getting stuff done and they manage the team so well and never worry about money stuff, and and then there’s a but. But could you help me get better at that relationship like ah it’s like we’re struggling around this.

Rich Birch — What would be some early signs in conversations that you’re having that maybe there’s the trust is starting to erode a bit that that’s drifting towards this kind of, Ooh, this is things are not in a good place. What are some of the telltale signs in those conversations that you see? Ooh, we maybe have a trust problem here.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah. Trust is really interesting because I feel like, um, really time builds trust. I mean, I feel like I’m, I usually kind of err on the side of like, hey I’ll trust you until you, until you cause reasons to bring like, untrust or whatever that may be…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — …or or break the trust. Because it takes, I feel like time, time is what really builds on trust, but it’s something that can be also lost overnight.

Rich Birch — Very quickly.

Jeremy Peterson — And so, um, I think a few things that I’ve noticed over the years, As trust begins to erode, I think there’s ah a few things that I would that I would hit on. I think um a few of them is just as being consistent. So like as an executive pastor, are you like are you reliable? Are you are you dependable? Are you doing what you say you’re going to do? Are you coming in with like a calm calm spirit? Sometimes senior pastors or lead pastors can be all over the place. They can be upset or frustrated, and if you kind of come in as like the is the constant like in the midst of a storm and you can kind of calm that down a little bit, I think that that’s that’s really helpful.

Jeremy Peterson — I think a big part of it is just is being truthful. So like in the consistency, are you being truthful? Because a senior pastor needs somebody who can speak the truth into them. Most of most staff even other um I think a lot of senior pastors they’re just not very trusting people by nature, and so I think when you have somebody who can speak truth into you, I think it actually starts developing and growing the trust. I feel like if you’re the same time i feel like if you’re holding back all the truth, I feel like like trust starts eroding over time if you’re holding back some of the truth.

Jeremy Peterson — So take something like weekly attendance, right? Senior pastors, lead pastors really, really care about seeing like about attendance. But if you are not being like fully truthful or transparent, little if you start holding some of the information, the information is going to come out in some capacity.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — And so I think if you start holding on to that, that can start breaking or even eroding the trust over time. So I think that consistency is a is a huge thing. I think another part of it is…

Rich Birch — Yeah. I think…

Jeremy Peterson — …oh go ahead.

Rich Birch — No, no, I was just going say, it’s amazing how, and what was that poem? Like everything I learned about life I learned in kindergarten. It’s amazing though, how much the just the core idea of like, do what you say, do what you said you were going to do.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Like it’s, but it’s amazing how for some leaders we, they seem to struggle with that, that it’s like, well, you said you were going to do this. Like, why did you not do it? It’s incredible. What else else were going to say there?

Jeremy Peterson — Oh yeah, the other thing was just going to add is I think clarity is so crucial. You’ve been an executive pastor. I think sometimes we go into this like problem solving mode and we’re constantly trying to think of like, how do we solve this problem? How do we how do we get in front of it?

Jeremy Peterson — And so a lot of times we don’t even have clarity, even necessarily around what the senior pastor or lead pastor are trying to accomplish. And we’ve already gone into like fix it mode before even we even have a full picture of like what’s trying to be accomplished. And if you’re not constantly like syncing up in some capacity with the senior pastor, I think that that’s where some of the trust can break over time.

Jeremy Peterson — So like I have a standing lunch every single Monday, regardless of what’s going on, unless we’re on vacation, we get together and we sync up every single Monday to have a conversation. And I remember initially it was like, well I don’t know that I can commit to a, you know, weekly lunch time and doing this. And so unless there’s some random exception for us, Mondays is really that chance to be able to sync up, make sure that we’re on the same page. And and I think really in that time, kind of not only hear like what’s God placed on your heart, but but I’m building camaraderie.

Jeremy Peterson — So like, and by camaraderie, I don’t I don’t feel like in any sense, like you as an executive pastor and lead pastor need to be best friends. But I feel like having some kind of common interests where you can you can spend some time together, you can have conversations that are not just work related, but a lot of it’s also about like hey what’s going on in your life. Like what’s happening not just here at the church but what’s happening in your own life? What’s going on? Like like being aware of those things, I think the more you can have those conversations it’s not just all about work all the time, I think that that helps build trust builds that relationship with your senior lead pastor as well.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to come back to that the kind of friendship, co-worker relationship thing there.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah

Rich Birch — But you said something earlier that caught my attention, this idea of a standing lunch on Mondays. Are there any other, in your relationship with Bo, a part of why I was excited to talk to you about this is as an outsider, I perceive you guys are like, those guys seem to like working with each other.

Rich Birch — They’re like, the fact that you’ve been there for 12 years and you continue to be there is a sign of that and vice versa. He continues to love working with you and it’s a prevailing church. You guys are taking new ground. Mondays, lunchtime, that’s a core behavior practice, intentional practice. Are there other things that you’re doing as you think about engaging with him in a way that build trust or build that relationship?

Jeremy Peterson — That’s a great question. So I think two things is, I will constantly drop into his office and have a five minute conversation, or make a five minute phone call. I’ve realized that over the years, how much time and probably pain I could have spared both of us…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — …had we just dropped in and had those conversations. And so kind of a a best practice that we would have now is like, hey, pick up the the phone and let’s have a five minute conversation…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — …instead of like potentially hours on the back end of things that we may have to undo or repair just because you know you may have had a question, doubt, frustration, whatever it may have been like. Just go ahead and voice those things and let’s have those conversations and then let’s move on versus like dwelling on it. Because I think that’s where the enemy does a really good job getting a foothold. And it’s like, hey, if I can just create a little little doubt or a little dissension here, then I can help break away and erode that trust.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Could you give me an example, that’s maybe not too close to home, of what one of those five minute things would be? Because I think that’s a good insight that like, hey, I should just like pick up the phone or drop by and like, hey, here’s something either I heard I can I can see that or I’ve thought of a similar thing around, like I see something that’s getting going and I’m like, I could wait to meet with the executive team and everybody or like, I but I really should just get my lead pastor’s thoughts on where his head’s at on this issue. Because if this thing gets too far down the road…

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …you know, we could be causing pain. What would be some examples of the kind of things that you think those kind of five minute drop-ins are helpful with?

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, I mean, something is simple as we had one of our locations was going from two services to three services. And so I had a conversation with the outpost pastor and we started talking through what those things are.

Jeremy Peterson — And we’re like, yeah, these three times make sense. And we just kind of ran with it. And so in retrospect, we start going to print. So we get to the point where it’s like going on the website, it’s going to print. And he asked me, he’s like, what are these times? Like, why why did we land on these times?

Jeremy Peterson — And so it was realizing that sometimes it’s those simple things, but if you can constantly be dropping in shoot a text, have a quick conversation, like the amount of things that we had to undo to fix something like that, was big. Another thing that he’s he’s shifted a lot now, but early on, it would not be uncommon for, say, one of our student pastors to go up to him and say like, hey, I know you did student ministry back in the day. I’m thinking about doing this. And he would be like, that sounds like a great idea. Just go for it. Not thinking through like all the details and ramifications of what that looked like.

Jeremy Peterson — And so next thing I know, I’m in a meeting with one of our student pastors and they’re like, hey, Bo said that we should do this. And I’m like, hold the phone, like no we’re not we’re not doing that.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeremy Peterson — And so having those short conversations really trying to operate under the like the no surprise premise which is what him and I operate under. Our elders operate under that as well. So we’ve we’ve kind of shared the same thing with our elders is like, hey, if you have questions or concerns, pick up the phone, make a call, always choose to believe the best instead of assuming the worst.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, speaking with weight, you know, that’s always a shrewd move by staff to like, if I can just get the lead person to say, yeah, yeah go do that that. That’s like a blank check. Well, Bo said, you know, I can imagine that, that

Jeremy Peterson — He signed off on it. It’s fine.

Rich Birch — It’s fine. It’s totally fine. We’re buying the corporate jet. It’s fine. Let’s go back to the best friends versus coworkers thing.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I see that this is an interesting relationship. And I’ve had I’ve had the privilege of working for three incredible lead pastors who I have really good positive relationships with. And, you know, we got a lot of stuff done, moved a lot stuff for the kingdom. And we’re friendly, like we’re we were close, but we weren’t like dudes. We were not like, you know, going to whatever dudes do like, you know.

Rich Birch — And, so I sometimes had tension around in my own brain around like, should I be more friendly with these people? I don’t know. Help us understand, pull that apart. How, what do you think is healthy? What, what, what’s the kind of a minimum viable relationship? You know, how do we think through our you know, that, that side of this, this relationship?

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, that’s that’s a really, that’s I think it’s probably different for every senior executive pastor relationship, but I feel like there’s some who think that they need to be best friends.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — So like every vacation we do, like our families need to do this together. Every hobby, like we need to be a part of that together. What I’m also realizing is that there there’s probably some common interests that you share.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — And they may not be the same. So like your lead pastor may like to golf. You may not like to golf. I may really like to fish. He does not really care to fish.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — But but there are common interests that we’ve realized over time. So a lot of that could be sports. So like we follow one of the same college football teams. We both enjoy working out. And so being able to share some of the best practices in those areas, I think it is finding like, where’s their common ground?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeremy Peterson — And how can we have a conversation? At the same time, I don’t know how healthy it is for you to be best friends. And because there are times where that could actually keep you from being fully truthful with them in in worries that you may like you may impact your relationship in some capacity. I think that’s a dangerous place to be.

Rich Birch — That’s good. How do you think, so we’re really talking here about trust and how we’re building trust. How are we trustworthy people with our lead pastor and are seen by being trustworthy with our lead pastor and then vice versa? How do we, you know, continue to try to, you know, choose trust with them and engage in a way?

Rich Birch — How do you think this idea of building trust ends up rippling into other relationships as, as, ah as we lead as an executive pastor? I often think, you know, we, we, we end up in, we’re in this really interesting kind of intersection of vision and execution. And so, you know, oftentimes I think lead pastors, when they’re doing their job, right, they are like a large portion of what they’re doing is thinking about vision and about the future. And then our job is to figure out, okay, how does that actually, how do we make that work?

Rich Birch — And so we got to work with all these other relationships. What’s the connection here around trust and relationships with our staff, with our staff teams, maybe younger staff, what’s that look like?

Jeremy Peterson — And I think it goes back to being truthful. If I overcommit and under deliver, then I can only do that a couple of times before like trust will start to erode. And I’ve seen it times over the years where like somebody way overcommits on this and they’re like, no problem, we can do this. And you know we’re going to have 10,000 people show up to it, but it’s going to be amazing. And then you you hype it up in such a way that then then the event or the function, whatever it is, happens. And then all of a sudden you like, you feel like you way under delivered. You can only that I think ah a few times before it starts to become like, man, I’m not sure. Like I know, I know Jeremy said he was going to do this, but like he keeps dropping the ball. He keeps committing at super high level and he’s not executing at that level. I think that that starts impacting things. um

Jeremy Peterson — There’s a, there’s a great book out there um that Stephen Covey wrote. He’s probably most, probably most well known for The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, I think is the name of the book.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeremy Peterson — He wrote another book that’s not as well known, but the book is called Speed of Trust.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeremy Peterson — And it’s a great reminder that like the more you work on being synced up together, the more trust begins to grow, the faster you can actually move and operate as an organization and as an entity, the more that that is built. And so so if you haven’t had a chance to read it, fascinating read. It was really helpful for me to understand that like, the more truthful I am, the more consistent I am, the more clarity I’m providing and actually executing at that level, then the more trust begins to build. And therefore allows us to actually move at a pretty rapid pace, the more that that foundation is built.

Jeremy Peterson — And I think it impacts the staff as a whole. it’s It’s a little bit like the mom-dad relationship. Like if there’s tension or if they’ve like if there’s been a fight or an argument, like as as kids, like you can tell something’s off.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Jeremy Peterson — What did dad say? Or you know why is mom upset with dad? um I think ah the staff can sense that. Like If something is off between the two of you, they can start to begin to wonder, doubt. They can even begin to you know, put in like suspicious thoughts of like, man, something must be off here. Something’s out of sync. And so I think that that’s a big part of it is just, is taking time, working on the relationship, and then just watching it kind of like grow and blossom over time. But also I would encourage, like if you’re a new executive pastor to the role, just realize that like you can’t buy time.

Rich Birch — It just takes time.

Jeremy Peterson — I’m an investment over years, the things that you’ve learned. You know, we talk often here about like failing fast and cheap because we feel like failure is actually needed to be able to accomplish what God’s calling us to do. But I think if you’re not truthful and transparent as that’s happening, then then it’s not long before it it starts catching up to you.

Rich Birch — That’s good. That reminds me one of the the, you know, axioms I’ve talked about with our teams is, you know, there’s, there’s no bad information. There’s just because I think sometimes like something might go wrong, you might have an event, you might be a team member, you, you know, you busted something, it could be as simple as, you know, youth event, we had literally had this happen, we opened a brand new building. And the very first youth event, there was a car, we had a kid go through the wall, and it busted a like it, you know, but busted a wall, like his brand new building, $15 million dollar build. Wow. This is amazing. You know, put a hole in the wall.

Rich Birch — And you know, there’s no bad information. What makes that hole in the wall worse is if we never hear about it, and it gets covered up and someone puts a, you know, well, we’ll just move this, you know, whatever, some furniture.

Jeremy Peterson — Just put a big poster up there, it’ll be fine.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Put a poster in front of it or whatever. That just gets worse over time. Like, sure. There may be information we don’t like, but there’s no bad information. Like we’ve got to be organizations that spread even bad news and you know how we react. That was one of the times where I felt like in that case that instance I said was, I feel like, oh like the Lord was with me because actually I responded super well. I said to the guy, I’m like, this is why we bought this building. I’m so glad you had all these students here. You know, let’s get it fixed and and move forward. I did not like paying that bill, but you know, it is, it is what it is, so. But we can’t, if we create organizations that are trying to hide the truth, that are trying to hide information that will erode trust long-term and you move way slower to the speed of trust, you know, information there.

Rich Birch — So pivoting in a in a slightly different direction, but related kind of an adjacent neighborhood of conversation. What are you learning about developing, particularly trust with, or building up team members, younger team members, newer team members at, at One Church? How, what does that look like for you guys? How, how are you, how how does that fit into this whole idea of, you know, building trust with people?

Jeremy Peterson — That’s a great question, Rich, because actually the and we can talk about it if we have time. But the Executive Pastor Summit this year specifically is really about leading up and empowering younger leaders.

Rich Birch — I love it.

Jeremy Peterson —But can I just do a quick jump backwards before?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeremy Peterson — Just just maybe this is a bonus thing. Regardless of whether you’ve worked with your lead senior pastor um for the last couple of months or the last 10 years, something that has really changed my heart and my perspective, and I think has really helped grow the relationship, is um it’s just daily be in prayer for him or her. I know that sounds very simple. Until about three years ago I would pray for Bo on a regular basis but it was just kind of like when I thought of it, or on the way to work, or Sunday morning…

Rich Birch — Right. It’s a big thing coming up.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, here’s a big thing coming up. But but man the the more we really challenge all of our staff to do this, but I know for myself praying for him, praying for each of his kids by name, know where they’re at in their life, relationships that they’re in, praying for his spouse, and I know he’s doing the same thing. Like I think that that God really takes that, honors that, and he helps kind of build trust through that. And so just an encouragement to some of you if you’re like wrestling with this, if you’re doubting, if you feel like the enemy is getting a foothold is, my encouragement is like, man, just take time every single day to pray for your senior lead pastor. And then I think that’ll make a huge difference. So just want to put that in. So I didn’t forget about, about that on the, on the back end.

Rich Birch — No, that’s so good. That’s a great practical tactic for us around, particularly, you know, you think about the the lead pastor, there was a high percentage of these in this kind of one out of five that were really saying, so it’s 17.89 is the number of people, of executive pastors that said that they feel neutral about their relationship with their lead pastor. And man, we don’t want to feel neutral about this relationship. Like this can’t be like, it’s fine. Like that’s not good. That would be a great takeaway is say, Hey, what if I was going to spend time every day praying for my lead pastor, for what’s going on in their world, for their, you know, for their spouse, for their kids, all of that. I think that’s a great, great takeaway.

Rich Birch — That’s a callback to a previous episode as well. I love, and I know I’ve joked with you about this before when we had you and Bo on talking about multi-site stuff last year, and you know, I asked this question around how do you know the campus versus teams and like the classic multi-site tension. And, um and I’ve retold this story way too many times. And, you know, I’m like, what do you guys do to fix this problem? And then Bo in his wise sort of way rolls out the like, well, you know, I pray every day for every staff member and their, and their family. And I found that that has really helped. And I was like, literally, I was like, Okay. So I’ve been doing this for 20 years, asking that question. Never, never once considered that. So I felt humbled.

Rich Birch — But that’s a great, a great, you know, it’s not just like, and know that’s what I love about you guys. It’s not like you’re not saying that from like, oh, just pray about it. It’s like, no, this, let’s actually add this as a part of our lives and discipline and see what the Lord will do. You know, I think it’s amazing. It’s fantastic.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, not to recap the whole thing, but man, like our staff as a whole has been doing that the last four and a half months, Rich. And even the interaction, some of the past frustrations, it’s crazy how much that’s minimized.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — And just simply praying for, I mean, we spend all this money to go to conferences and all this stuff. And it’s like, hey, how about here’s a printed off name of everybody on staff, their spouse and their kids.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeremy Peterson — Hey, just take 20 minutes a day and pray for them.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeremy Peterson —It’s like, oh yeah, I can I guess Ii can do that as it doesn’t cost much other than some time so. But anyway…

Rich Birch — Well, and you start to see each other as humans, right? At the end of the day.

Jeremy Peterson — Oh yeah.

Rich Birch —And, you know, you start to be like, hey, this person’s like, they’re not just a task that needs to be done or, you know, they’re not just whatever the next problem is that’s going to come up. So, um yeah, that’s a great practical takeaway.

Rich Birch —Well, let’s pivot on that. I want to make sure because I know that you can help leaders on this as well. As we think about younger leaders, what, you know, just ah ask a super wide open, what should we be thinking about? What are you thinking about? What are you wrestling with? Help us wrestle through that. you know, let’s talk about that.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, something that’s really been on my heart the last probably year and a half is how do we empower younger leaders? And so I’m not sure who sits around like your, know, your decision making team. But God really put in our hearts several years back to start a residency program and really pour into some of these younger leaders. I know people took a risk on people like you and I, at some point when we were in our twenties and didn’t really know what we’re doing. And we made some dumb things. Like, I think I made multiple holes and multiple walls, which the senior pastor was like very forgiving at the time about it.

Jeremy Peterson — But, but I just love that we get an opportunity to like really pour into invest and actually empower and, um, and and put some trust even behind some of these residents that they’re they’re going from like, okay, I’ve learned these things in school. I have this head knowledge of things, but from a practical standpoint, what does that really look like?

Jeremy Peterson — And so so knowing that we were going to this conversation, I just sat down with one of our first year residents just to kind of hear what their experience has been so far, because I want to hear like the positives, the negatives and kind of what their insight was. But um but a few things that he shared shared with me was like, I love that you guys allow us to fail.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Jeremy Peterson — He’s like, I’ve been at other jobs before where it’s like, if something happens to me, if I miss it, then it could be like, hey, you’re going get written up for this. And for us for us, it’s really trying to create that culture of like, you are allowed to fail. You’re allowed to try things. We talk about failing fast and cheap. We hope it doesn’t cost us a lot. But but ultimately, like that’s a safe place in the residency to but to be able to be.

Jeremy Peterson — Another thing he said was, um like I’ve been challenged to say yes to opportunities. And I was like, well, yeah, tell me a little bit more about that. And he’s like, no, usually kind of like you pick and choose. Well, yeah, I want to say yes to this one, but I don’t want to say yes to this. And he’s like, I’m in my early 20s. Why would I not say yes to all these different opportunities? And he’s like, I really want to be scrappy.

Jeremy Peterson — And I’m like, well, tell me more tell me more about that. He’s like, no, I really want to be like more of a utility, like multi-tool staffer. And in my mind, I’m like, OK, I appreciate the the hustle and this younger resident because he’s already talking about like, OK, how do we create a staffing position for him?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — But I also think realizing that, you know, he said, if I get an opportunity to preach, I’m going to take the opportunity to preach. If I get the opportunity to host, I to take the opportunity to host. If I don’t have anything that weekend, that I’m going to see if I can serve with our production team and kind of learn the behind the scenes side of things so that I can help with that. Anywhere that’s needed.

Jeremy Peterson — And so I love this idea that they’re willing to say yes, they’re willing to take some risks, knowing that the team believes in them. And so for us, and I think for me specifically, it’s been okay, who do I see being a part of our leadership decision making team in the years ahead?

Jeremy Peterson — And know for, you know, if the average age in the room is like, say, in their mid 40s, like to bring in a early mid 20 year old is it like, wait a second, like, what is this, you know, what is this kid going to say to us? um I think they provide some incredibly fresh perspective…

Rich Birch — 100 percent.

Jeremy Peterson — …on what we’re actually doing well, things that we should do differently, and just ways that we can continue to like really empower them, challenge them, put them in positions that may make them feel uncomfortable. Like we have some that have are like almost deathly afraid of having you know being on stage and talk talking to somebody. But give them an opportunity to to get in there, host, I mean, hosting’s two, three minutes, but get an opportunity to get on stage, just kind of like, you know, put a little fire under them, and and see how they do. And and just watch them grow. And I’m always shocked, and I shouldn’t be shocked because because we’ve been doing the residency for a while, but how many of them not only step up into the challenge, but then actually go beyond our expectations.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s so good. I think this is a critical important critically important for us to lean in on. You know In the last year I’ve been struck, I was with a lot of different churches, and but there were two in particular that stood out to me. These are like prevailing churches, folks that are listening in. If you were listening, they’re like name brand churches. You know these people.

Rich Birch — And the thing that stood out to me was I was having in both of them, I just happened to be having a kind of a meeting with leadership meeting with the folks that were actually operational leaders of a whole bunch of different departments. It was like a kind of a cross section of team leaders. And I was pleasantly surprised with how young that crowd was. Like I looked around the room and I was like, man, these people are all in their late twenties, early thirties. And they’re running departments that are larger than, you know the majority of churches in the country.

Rich Birch — You know they’ve got 15 staff reporting to them. They’re managing multi-million dollars of budgets. And these are prevailing churches. Now, I don’t think that that is a coincidence. I think both of those churches have unlocked something and have realized, wait a second, we have to pass this thing on to the next generation.

Rich Birch — So when you think about the residency, kind of talk to us so about but about the residency program. What does that look like? And how did you get into that? How did that kind of get that ball get rolling? Help us understand. Maybe there’s someone who’s listening in today is thinking, hmm, maybe that’s something, a step we should take in this coming year.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, so it was actually a retired baseball player who’s actually going to be at XPS this year. I’m going to do an interview with him. Because now that he’s retired, he’s still coaching, but the like now he’s kind of coaching up the AA and AAA players as they’re coming in and they’re moving up to the major leagues. But he really challenged us because we told him the staffing was one of the biggest challenges, especially in in the New England area. There’s not a lot of people that feel called to be up here this close to Canada, which I know you’re in Canada. But they’re they’re like, maybe if we can be further south, like a little more comfortable.

Jeremy Peterson — But for us, we realized that staffing was a challenge. And for us, he really challenged us to to start a residency. And the residency, it’s either a one or two year residency. And you come on you come in you have two areas of focus. And so it could be, say, worship and production. And you’ll spend six months with each of those areas, really kind of hands-on. And so if you’re showing up here, you’re actually like, you will be on stage leading worship. You will be helping run production, whether it’s for our online service or at one of our outposts. But we really try to give as many hands-on opportunities as possible.

Jeremy Peterson — As somebody who went to seminary, I think I had one class called practical ministry. And it was like, here’s one semester on, you know, how to do weddings, how to do funerals, but not a whole lot of hands-on experience unless I was volunteering at a church. And so for us, it’s really trying to take, hey, here’s some things that I’ve learned, like from a practical standpoint, but like actually let’s just actually see them like, live happening in real time and get an opportunity to be able to see like, Hey, is it something that God’s even really calling me to? And how can I use the gifts that he’s given me to further the kingdom?

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Love that. Well, we’ve kind of referenced XPS. So XPSummit.org. This is a conference that you are the grand content poobah for. Talk to us about XPS this year. This is to me is a must-attend event. Talk to us about it. and And where is it? All those kind of details this year.

Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, sure. It’s it’s May 4th through 6th in Dallas-Fort Worth. And typically we’ll have 150, 175 executive pastors from different size of churches around the country. And and I appreciate the comment, Rich, but really my goal is to get the people that are there with the content, people like you, and other leaders who really want to come and pour into other executive pastors. And so, yeah, so if you, whether you live in the area or you just want to a day to hang out with some incredible leaders, Rich is going to be there, I’ll be there. And like you said, you can go to xpsummit.org and you can see some of the keynote speakers as well as some of the breakout leaders.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, Jeremy, just as we wrap up today’s episode, bit of a curveball question here. As you think about 2026 at One Church, what’s a question or two that’s on your mind that you’re like, hmm, here’s some stuff that we’re thinking about. it doesn’t have to do with anything we’re talking about today. It could be just anything that you’re thinking about this year. You’re wrestling through thinking, hmm, I wonder what that’s going to look like in this this coming year.

Jeremy Peterson — Man, I was not expecting that question. One thing I’ve been praying about is I think we’re going to start seeing a shift in different parts of the country um where we may have people that are more of like a like a tentmaker role in ministry where um I think there’s an incredible opportunity to do things in like the business sector, but at the same time still work in the church using some of the gifts that God’s empowered you with. And so I can see a shift happening where we have more of the tent making. It’s crazy to me that it’s been like less than a hundred years since the church has actually had like paid full-time staff…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeremy Peterson — …and not only paid full-time staff, but multiple staff. And so I think I think we could see a shift there. I think a lot of its just to be trying to be, in the words of one of our residents, how to be a little more scrappy, and really looking for staff that is not just focused on one specific area, but somebody who is a utility player that’s like, hey, I can help out in these four or five different areas instead of just being like, I have this one skill set that I can bring. I think those are two things that are going to make a huge impact in the church in 2026.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Jeremy. I appreciate you being on today. If people want to track with One Church, where do we want to send them online to track with you guys?

Jeremy Peterson — Just go to church.one. Little bit different of a website, but yeah, they can go there and you can find my email address if you want to email me or if we can serve you any way, I know um for for our elders, for Bo, our senior pastor, we love serving the local church as a whole. And so if you’re in the area or if you want to come and hang out with us for a few days, shoot me an email and we’d love to host you guys.

Rich Birch — Great. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today, sir.

 

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re continuing our special series responding to insights from the National Executive Pastor Survey with an executive pastor from a prevailing church.

Today we’re joined by Eric Garza, Executive Pastor at Cross Church. Cross Church is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with 12 campuses across South Texas, serving both English- and Spanish-speaking congregations. In this conversation, Eric helps unpack the number-one fear expressed by executive pastors in the survey: running out of space and not knowing what to do next.

Is your church growing but feeling physically constrained? Are facilities, kids’ space, or parking holding you back from what God may want to do next? Eric offers practical, hard-earned wisdom from leading through rapid multisite expansion.

To learn more about Cross Church, visit crosschurchonline.com or follow @crosschurchrgv on social media. You can also connect with Eric directly on social media at @ericpgarza.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe

Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward.

Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help.

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We are in the middle of, in the in the midst of, is maybe a better way to say, these special set of podcasts where we’re responding to what you said in the National Executive Pastor Survey, which turned out to be the largest dedicated or direct executive pastor survey that we’re aware of ever, which is kind of cool. And hundreds of people were you know, logged in and told, gave us a sense of where ministry is at. And what we’ve been doing is spending time with an executive pastor from a prevailing church, and frankly, people I like, to get their ah thoughts on kind of what was surfaced.

Rich Birch — And today we’ve got a big one. This is a significant issue. In fact, it was the single biggest fear that was expressed. We asked a question around, what’s your kind of biggest fear for this year? And nearly one in five executive pastors expressed fear about this. And what is that fear? It’s the whole issue of our facilities, space, capital projects, that sort of thing. Many churches are running out of kids space, parking, seating, lobby capacity.

Rich Birch — You know, we’re all worried about in inflation of construction costs. If you got a building quoted on five years ago, you’re going to want to get it quoted on again, you know, renovation, building, all of this stuff. And, you know, we’re excited to have ah today a return guest, Eric Garza with us. He is from a fantastic church, Cross Church, which is located in Texas. It’s one of the fastest growing churches of ah in the country, and they have 12 campuses, if I’m counting correctly. So Eric has thought about facilities and so excited to have you back on the show, Eric. Thanks for being here.

Eric Garza — Rich, thanks for having me back. Good to have an opportunity to have a great conversation about a big topic for a lot of pastors and executives across the country. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Well, you’re going to solve all our problems for us today, Eric. So.

Eric Garza — It’s just some nuggets of what I’ve learned and experienced. But if I can make your life and your world a little bit better, awesome.

Rich Birch — That’s great. That’s good. Kind of tell us a little bit about Cross again, kind of set the context, you know, give us a bit of sense of the the church.

Eric Garza — Yeah, so we’re in deep south Texas. Most of our campuses are within a half hour north of the US-Mexico border. So right at the bottom of the tip of Texas. 30 years going on 31 years as a ministry. In the last eight years, we went from one site ah to now seven locations, physical locations and 12 campuses.

Eric Garza — We’re a bilingual ministry, which means we do we have English campuses and we have Spanish campuses. And we recently, last year in 2025, launched our first campus outside of our region in San Antonio, Texas.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Eric Garza — And you can imagine a lot of ah victories and a lot of challenges, ah you know leaving your space, your comfort area, the region where you’ve been, for 30 years and then heading out and venturing off into what we believe God called us to do in in Central Texas.

Eric Garza — So ah just phenomenal growth. We’ve seen God’s hand up on our ministry and it’s come with, ah like I said, a lot of wins and a lot of challenges we’ve had to navigate. And being a a predominantly Hispanic ministry that reaches both English congregants and Spanish congregants, dealing with cultural, political issues in our region of the country ah has just been a whirlwind. But as anybody could imagine, it’s been a big learning season for us for expansion. You know, I know we’re talking about facilities going from one side to multisite and all of that that entails operationally, logistically, financially. So I wouldn’t say we know it all. We certainly don’t if we’re always learning. But man, if if we can just impart any wisdom, we’re we’re all for that.

Rich Birch — Love it. Well, I would say I actually re-looked at a lot of these fears. And the overall tone, if you were to kind of summarize the the conversation that people seem to be expressing is like, there’s this sense from a lot of executive pastors, listen, our ministry could grow, but our space, frankly, is holding us back. And we’re not entirely sure what the path forward is. It’s like, we we see the physical space issues, but I’m not sure where to go from here. So I’d love to jump right in.

Eric Garza — Sure.

Rich Birch — How have you, as you’ve looked at your seven physical locations, 12 campuses, how do you evaluate facility limitations? And are they the things that are actually restricting growth or does the issue lie somewhere else? How do you, how are you discerning that when you look at, you know, this, this whole issue?

Eric Garza — Yeah, a lot of our of our growth has come from us planting campuses, but some of our growth has come from, I guess, what the corporate world calls mergers and acquisitions, where we’ve merged or really acquired other ministries who either had an existing facility that we took over. Or where we partnered with them through the acquisition and launched a campus in a new building or a new facility.

Eric Garza — So some of the things that we’ve done is, there’s a whole process, right, that that it’s entailed with going multisite. And one of those big key indicators of whether the campus or the church plant is going to succeed is whether they have a sustainable facility that can house all aspects of the ministry. And sometimes that can be difficult to find.

Eric Garza — For example, you don’t just want meeting space to have services, right? You need maybe an office space, you need childcare space, you need a meeting space, you need lobby, restrooms, you need adequate parking. And all of those factors come into play when you’re looking to find the right spaces. So for us, We’ve just been blessed that ah either we’ve have you know gone through the capital campaigns, we’ve gone through the funding, the you know internal funding to build new facilities, or the acquisition that we’ve ah done over the last couple of years already had an existing facility, which is a plus. Because instead of building, we just went into a remodel phase to bring that building up to what we would call our Cross-standard to house our campus and facility. And so I mean it’s It’s a holistic approach.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Eric Garza — You look at parking, kids space. What you don’t want to do and what what we’ve run into in the past, is it’s okay to to launch with limited space, but if you’re launching and you already have a couple of hundred people that are gathered, you’re going to want to find a space that’s going to give you ample room to have one or two services without having to crunch yourself in the short term. And it’s going to, in in in a larger sense, going to really facilitate some challenge and some angst and frustrations early on. And you want to minimize as much of that, especially when you’re when you’re launching and you’re setting out to start a new campus or a new church.

Rich Birch — Yeah, so that’s one of those kind of pinch points would be too small, right? Like I’m assuming you’ve ended up in facilities where it’s like, okay, this is this just frankly is too small.

Eric Garza — It’s not going to work.

Rich Birch — And so we’ve got to, it’s not going to work. We’re going have to start with three services and that, you know, or something like that. Or we’ll start with two and we’ll be pinched too quickly. Are there any other kind of tripwires that you’ve run into that are like, oh, like it might be great on these five things, but this, these, if it’s not these two or three, if these aren’t right, we were not going in there. Are there any other things to get to, as you said, a sustainable facility? Are there any kind of big no-nos that you’ve bumped into, or maybe you wish you knew before? Yeah. Tell me about that.

Eric Garza — Yeah, a couple of things. Number one is don’t ah start a church next to the railroad tracks. That may sound a little funny.

Rich Birch — No, tell me more.

Eric Garza — You never know that during your Sunday morning message at your 10 o’clock service, roughly about 10:40 a.m., this train…

Rich Birch — Oh, gosh.

Eric Garza — …who’s two or three blocks away is going to come blaring out ah and just completely disrupt your sound and and your service and your message for a few minutes. So it may sound comical, but ah yeah, definitely don’t do that. Right.

Rich Birch — No, that’s very good.

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s well, and even going and seeing, that’s a great takeaway because even going and seeing the facility during a Sunday morning, like, cause you wouldn’t know that if you’re there to just Tuesday afternoon or something, you would have no sense of that.

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But, but cause it might be a train, but there’s, I could see lots of things where.

Eric Garza — Trains are not confined to Monday through Friday.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Garza — They’re there every day as they need. And so you just you just never know. That has to happen a couple of times, and it’s incredibly frustrating.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s interesting. That’s good.

Eric Garza — And so you play it off the middle of the service, but man, it can it can mess it could mess with some stuff. The second thing I would say is is this when looking for a facility. There’s obviously some innate some internal perhaps pressure or self-imposed pressure as a pastor or an executive to want to get into a permanent facility right away.

Eric Garza — One of the things that helped us early on with with a couple of our campuses is we actually rented. And here’s the benefit of renting or leasing, even for a year or two, as you grow that site is number one, you’re not worried about insurance, right? You’re not worried about lawsuits. You’re not worried about maintenance or you’re paying for that, right? But there’s a lot that you minimize when it comes to overloading your mind and your brain about what you have to handle.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Eric Garza — Alright. And so you pay a fee, but the building’s clean when you come in. And right after you set, you know, you tear down your equipment for the service in your kids area, you don’t have to worry about that because you’re leasing a space.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Eric Garza — And so if you can minimize, like I said, as much of the overload of operations and facilities on the front end, that’s that’s a great a great thing. And most spaces, right, what we did early on is if we had an event center where we would rent the main auditorium uh we would use conference rooms or or multi-purpose room for child care. We would safe proof them, right – all of our protocols in place. But that’s what we would do early on, and it would give us a chance to test and gather some data.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Eric Garza — Is this going to work long term? Right. Number one, we don’t believe we missed God. But if after a couple of years, this isn’t going anywhere. Well, thank God we didn’t buy a building…

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — …because now we’re you know up a creek without a paddle, as they say. And so leasing is not is not an entirely bad idea on the early outset.

Rich Birch — No, that’s great.

Eric Garza — But definitely the neighborhood that you’re in, right beside the town that you’re in, you want to be in a centrally as centrally as you can, centrally located as you can, and and not next to a railroad track or any industry or warehouses where there’s going to be trucks, just for safety concerns, for the curbside appeal. And so that’s why public libraries or where we had actually launched started campuses was at a public library – acoustic set because we couldn’t be so loud. So all of those facility concerns are are really things you want to keep in mind.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of the rental on the front end. What a great way to, it’s good use of capital. It’s a good, you know, it it gives you a chance to test…

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …even if you stay for a couple of years, that’s, you know, that’s fantastic. So you’ve been through multiple, you know, capital campaigns, this whole process of like, we’ve got to raise money and then get a facility renovated or, you know, you know, expanded or whatever.

Rich Birch — What, what do you wish you would have known before all that? Well, are there a couple like things that either, you know, you stumbled upon, you stubbed your toe or you wish, man, I wish somebody would have told me this. Are there any things that stand out to you?

Eric Garza — Number, I think the first one is this. You have an you have a number in your mind, and you of course you believe God for it. It…

Rich Birch — And it’s lower. It’s going to come in lower every time.

Eric Garza — …it is. Every single, unless God does a miracle, which he is more than able to do…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Eric Garza — …it’s going to come in lower. And so I think have have high anticipation but realistic expectations…

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — …because most capital campaigns are campaigns that are above normal giving.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Okay. Yep.

Eric Garza — Right. And so at least for us, it’s above normal giving.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Eric Garza — We encourage and we get people to give towards a specific capital campaign, which is for a specific campus or a specific project or or what have you. But you have this number in mind and then if you can tend to early on. It’s not coming in yet. Or maybe you’ve done it for a year or give a specific timeline.

Rich Birch — I see. Okay. Yep.

Eric Garza — And you can get quickly discouraged, especially with capital campaigns where you’re like, we’re halfway through this thing and not even half has come in yet, or of what we thought would come in. And so it’s easier to get discouraged. But that was a big thing is that number in your mind, it’s going to be lower. And that’s not a bad thing. Right. That’s not a bad thing.

Eric Garza — People are giving to a capital campaign above giving of their normal giving, sacrificially, they’re giving by faith. They’re giving with expectation. But at the same time, for those of us on the inside, right, those of us who are managing the resources and what have you, it’s it’s about having a realistic expectation that we have the faith that God can do it. But we’re all going to budget ourselves knowing that if there’s a high probability, not impossible, there’s a high probability that the number we had in mind, is not going to be what comes in for the capital campaign.

Rich Birch — Let’s talk about that there. So there’s an interesting, um so I’ve seen that for sure in churches. There’s an interesting kind of tension that pulls in two different directions. One, you can have exactly what you’re talking about, which is, you know, we thought we would go in, we we were hoping we would raise X and we raised something less than that.

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But then the other part of it is we were hoping the project was going to cost X and it costs X plus, you know, it’s costing us more than, than we anticipated. How do you manage that tension? How have you been able to kind of navigate that? That’s a, that’s a tough tension.

Eric Garza — Yeah, the longevity of the capital campaign is gonna is not always going to be exactly match, it’s not going, rather, to exactly match what the building construction cost was at the beginning. Prices fluctuate and prices change.

Eric Garza — And so let’s say you have let’s use so a rough even number, a million dollar capital campaign for your church organization. And the construction is going to cost, I don’t know, $900,000, $950,000. Well, a million dollars should cover it. But by the time a million dollars or shortly or short of that comes in, well, your budget is now at 1.2 or 1.3.

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — It’s fluctuated. And so the what’s congruent at the beginning can be really a little bit financially off by the time that can…In other words, the timelines of the capital campaign and your building projects sometimes don’t align perfectly. And we’ve run into that too, where we’ve had to take from our operating budget a little bit, or we’ve had to really emphasize a certain amount during the campaign, because that’s what needs to come in. We’ve you know met with with key givers and donors of the church. And those are challenges that you navigate ah during the capital campaign process.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Eric Garza — And and like I said earlier, it’s it’s challenging because, well, let me backtrack and say this.

Eric Garza — This is why on the front end, you should add margin into your capital campaign…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Eric Garza — …which we didn’t do that, perhaps the first go around. But certainly the later ah seasons, we added margin in our capital campaigns to account for any fluctuation in construction costs. And if there was ever in a surplus, well, we would tell the church it’s because of your giving and because of your support and generosity that we had more than enough come in.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Eric Garza — And so now we’re going to use those funds for X or they’re going to go back to the general fund or or whatever whatever the case. But I think that the key that would be to incorporate some 10 to 15% margin in your capital campaign on the outset to account for anything that might happen 12, 15, 18 months down the road.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s really good. That’s good. You maybe just saved somebody a lot of headache two years from now…

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …because of that part of the conversation. I want to go back to something you talked about earlier. You’ve had multiple buildings that you’ve acquired or you’ve merged with, and you were talking about remodeling and there’s like, that can be a blessing and a curse. Like it can be amazing. Like, wow, this is great. And…

Eric Garza — You never know what you’re going to find.

Rich Birch — …you know, you open up, you open up a wall and who knows what’s behind that wall. And, you know, there’s all that. And you talked about bringing it up to the Cross standard. Talk me through what how have you decided what that is? What is the Cross standard? And how do you what are the common things that you find, Oh, we’ve got to make this change. And how have you kind of defined that as you think about projects like that?

Eric Garza — Yeah, so over the last few years, we’ve pretty much honed in on, I guess, the vibe and the look of what we want our campuses to to feel and look like.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Eric Garza — They may be different ah floor plans because some of them we built, some of them we acquired, properties we took over. But as far as color schemes, we do our very best to match wall colors, sanctuary colors. We use the same stage equipment, both branding and layout as best as possible across all of our sanctuary auditoriums, our stages.

Eric Garza — Our kids spaces, ah we have an internal ratio of how many teachers or volunteers per infants, per toddlers, for school-age children we want. And so that determines our spacing. And so sometimes we’ve got to knock some walls down or build some walls in to accommodate for for what, like I said, our standard of ministry, both in appeal, but also in care for for our congregants and for our families.

Eric Garza — And so when we remodel, you’re right, there’s some things that once you knock down a wall, you’re not going to know until you knock it down. And that’s where that, you know, that margin comes in. But for the most part, right, we’ve had we do inspections, we get we get third party opinions on the building, on the cost estimates, and like we would encourage anybody to do, right.

Eric Garza — But that’s our Cross standard is the look, the feel, the equipment, the wall colors, you know is there enough space for our our guests, connect area, our next steps area for first impressions. Does every ministry have adequate space to store their items – all of those factors come into play in deciding how we’re going to remodel a facility.

Eric Garza — And I’ll say the second thing is this is why before you break or before you knock down a wall, get an inspector or or get some people either in your church or in the construction industry or somebody that you know in in your community. Because sometimes when you have a building, your initial thought is to remodel. That may not always be the most financial financially wise decision. And here’s why. Because you may not know all that you’re going to encounter, you may in the long run end up spending just as much as if you had built a brand new facility with the exact floor plan you want.

Eric Garza — And so that’s where you’re evaluating and deciding, is it more feasible to remodel this building for X amount of dollars? Or are we within 5% to 10% budget margin, where we might just say it’s it’s in the best interest of the church perhaps to use either this facility as collateral for our next building or a brand new building, or is it better to use it a multisite building, excuse me, multi-purpose building, and we end up building a new facility…

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — …for the church or for the campus. And so those cost estimates are going to help you make the best, most informed decision of where you’re going to steward the resources financially in either remodeling or in building a site.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. One of my favorite churches, Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina, they they had a building that was given to them and they did, they weren’t entirely sure what to kind of, it was in a part of town, they weren’t necessarily sure they wanted to launch a campus and just they had a campus closer and all that. And they ended up using it turned it into a really a student center and it’s a fantastic ministry building and it’s active, you know, five, six days a week.

Rich Birch — Now they don’t do Sunday morning services there, but they do all kinds of other stuff, which is fantastic. Like is a great, you know…

Eric Garza — And we’ve seen that too. Yeah. They use for leadership meetings, for small chapel receptions…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Eric Garza — …or gatherings or next gen events, youth, young adults, even renting it out to the community as a means to supply income to the church…

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. On a daycare or something.

Eric Garza — …to like, you know aligned organizations, of course, whatever your church policy is. But yeah, sometimes the best use of that building is not for church services.

Rich Birch — Have you, have you run into facilities that you’ve evaluated and then decided, no like this is going to cost way too much to renovate and we’re, so we won’t go forward with it. Have you run into that after evaluation?

Eric Garza — Well, not entirely, but I’ll say this…recent…

Rich Birch — I know that risk is there for sure.

Eric Garza — Yeah, there is risk. There is risk. And the risk assessment is different when you’re leasing a space or remodel…

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — …and when you’re when you’re obviously building your own facility, as far as and including the costs associated with that. One of our campuses recently, and I mean in the last 24 months, before we moved into our new building was leasing a space and we were given the option to remodel the space we were leasing. Because though it was suitable for what we needed for the ministry, for Sunday services and and all the other ministries, parts of it were not really conducive to growth for the congregation and for the ministry.

Eric Garza — So we did contemplate remodeling. I think I think what kept us from doing that number one is whatever you remodel for the landlord the landlord is going up keeping. And so the return on that investment would be short term and not long term, We were already in the midst of building our building but we were growing at a rapid rate, and so we were eight, twelve months out from from being in our building and the campus was growing, and so we needed a short-term solution.

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — So we did think, Well, we’ll spend X amount of dollars to remodel our site where we’re leasing before we get into the new building. But we found out that shifting our service times and and doing different different strategies ended up alleviating in the short term the constraints we had to give us a time to get into our new building, which is now more than enough space for us to grow for for years and years to come.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s cool. Yeah. Cause I’ve said as a, I feel like I’ve been in a ton of conversations with XPs where, you know, they’re talking about this issue and you know, there’s like a building that they’re, maybe it’s another church that’s come to them and they’re having a conversation and they’re, I would say their mindset is like, I’m not sure we should do this. Like this is, they’re like, this other church came to us and statistically, actually the most likely for these mergers to succeed are when the joining church comes to the lead church.

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — So they would come to your church and be like, Hey, we’re interested. So it actually happens a fair amount. And I’ve, I feel like I’ve talked, tried to talk so many executive pastors into like, man, it’s gotta be a really bad building. If particularly if it’s like has debt or has no debt or very little debt on it, it’s gotta be a very bad building to not want to take it. Cause it’s like, you know, you can, you can take, invest, you know, a moderate amount of money. You don’t need to dump a ton into it and get something great. And like you said, as long as you’re above board with everybody, you know, five years from now, if it doesn’t work, you could take that asset, sell it and move on and use those resources somewhere else.

Eric Garza — And that’s very good because when you talk about acquiring a ministry, especially if it has a low balance on their mortgage or or they don’t have much to pay off the building, and if you’re in a position to pay that off within the first year of acquiring the ministry…

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — …think of a collateral and the equity that your organization now has because of that new facility that’s in your portfolio.

Rich Birch — 100%.

Eric Garza — And I know it sounds very business-minded, but when you’re looking to expand into the future, even at another site in your church ministry organization, you now have more collateral, more resources to leverage for a better financial position in the future when you do want to actually build a building.

Eric Garza — And the second thing is this, if you’re acquiring a ministry that already has an existing building, in most cases, it’s already built out for church purposes. So that’s very helpful. So at that point, you may be putting in a smaller amount and just…

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — …you know, refurbishing it, painting the walls, putting some new equipment, some new screens, maybe be changing out the flooring a little bit, or some of the fixtures in different spaces…

Rich Birch — There’s technology or whatever, yep.

Eric Garza — …because it’s already built out for a church. And so that’s the benefit of going or acquiring in a ministry if you’re going that route that already has an existing facility.

Rich Birch — Yeah, we had, ah we were running, our budget was about $8 million dollars and we were, we had a church come to us and they were, they had really, they had had a tough season and the summer before we ended up merging with them or they joined us really, they had multiple Sundays where they had two people show up on Sunday. They had the person that was preaching and the guy that was opening the door, like it was, it had really atrophied down.

Rich Birch — And I remember in one of those conversations, they had had a bit of a roof problem. The facility was worth just probably south of 2 million. It was like ah a great facility, but they had a roof problem. And I remember one of the the elders leader person, he said, you know, we we got a quote on the roof and it’s it’s going to cost maybe about $15,000 to fix. Do you think you guys will be able to fix that? And they had no debt and were going to give us their building.

Rich Birch — Well, like I humbly had to say like, like, yeah, we’ll we’ll be okay. Like, it’s gonna it’s gonna be fine. Like, you know, I what I didn’t want to say is like, I feel like our youth guys have like wasted $15,000 this year. Like, you know, like it’s like we can, you know, the exchange just on paper. And again, that’s not why you go into those conversations.

Eric Garza — Of course.

Rich Birch — But a part of that is, particularly in our seats as executive pastors, that’s a part of what we have to wrestle through and think about those things. So let’s get back to the renovation thing. A lot of what churches were talking about is like, pressure of like, man, I just, our physical facilities are, are holding us back.

Rich Birch — Any other thoughts around, you know, changes you’ve made to increase capacity or, um you know, things that maybe are like some low hanging fruit or creative solutions that have that, that maybe we’re not thinking about, but as a leader who’s been through this, you know, you’ve been, you’ve wrestled through that, that we, we could, you know, benefit from.

Eric Garza — Yeah, absolutely. A couple of things. You can please everybody, right?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Eric Garza — And so I think one of the ministry pressures well, we want to please the next gen. We also want to please the child care. We also want to please the elders of the church. And we also want to please the younger families of the church and young professionals. And when you’re when you’re in a facility that wasn’t originally built according to your specs, it’s going to be difficult to do that.

Eric Garza — And so you have to focus, as we have, on the most critical areas, sanctuary and child care. If you don’t have child care, it’s going to be a barrier to growth because families or parents are not going to have the comfort level they need to come to your church on a regular basis and to be a part of the community. And so for us, when we’ve remodeled, the first things we look at are sanctuary and then the kid space. Do we have enough adequate kids space?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Eric Garza — Some of the solutions when we’ve been limited in space is is launching multiple services to we have a smaller sanctuary or a smaller space, we’ll offer more service opportunities. Or when it comes to our kids ministry, we’ve evaluated with our kids directors and our our kids department of how can we best merge age groups to maximize the space that we have. So if you have right an ideal facility where you have you know your child your child care divided by grade level or age level, sometimes you have the amenity to do that and many times you don’t. And so what we’ve done is instead of having first grade on their own, maybe we’ll put you know kindergarten and first grade level kids together.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Eric Garza — We’ll put second and third together, fourth and fifth together as a way to consolidate because we don’t have the space that we prefer to have, at least in this season. And so for us, sometimes you’re not watering down in essence, the content, the quality, but you are consolidating in the short term or even medium term…

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — …if you will, if that’s even a term, to make adequate space for the constraints that you may have.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Eric Garza — And so you have 600 members and you only have 200-seat sanctuary, 250. Well, that’s an opportunity for three services.

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — Is that is that is that Is that a strain? Well, it can be if you see it from core perspective versus a perspective of, Man, we’re so large and we have the space. You know, one of our core values at our church is excellence. And we’ve defined excellence as not having the best, but doing the best with what you have.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Eric Garza — So we may not have a thousand seat auditorium for this growing congregation, but what we do have, we’re going utilize it and steward it to our best ability. So if that means two or three services, well, God give us the strength and the people to manage and to lead and to execute three strong services every weekend, or every Sunday, in order to meet the need of the congregation that we have.

Eric Garza — And and I think one of the biggest things, Rich, is also communicating this. It’s keeping them current, right. You’re not going to go into all the details per se, unless that’s your preference and that’s your senior pastor’s prerogative. But to share with them the overarching theme of, hey, here’s where we’re at as a ministry. Here’s our facility. And here’s what we’re going to do to continue to offer as best a ministry as we can, while at the same time being cognizant of the challenges that we’re facing.

Eric Garza — We said this to our staff and to our church many times, is we don’t look at obstacles as negatives. We look at obstacles as opportunities. Okay.

Rich Birch — That’s so true.

Eric Garza — If this is what we have, how can we be as excellent as possible with what we have? If that means going to a third service, well, then we’re going to give it a shot because what we don’t want to do is allow facility constraints to translate into diminished capacity or into a diminishing congregation and I’m talking about numerically. Because the diminishing congregation numerically also means a diminishing budget and revenue financially because you have less givers in the seats. And that’s those are some of the challenges that you got navigate so we don’t see it as obstacles. We don’t see obstacles necessarily as a challenge we see that’s an opportunity of okay how can we navigate around this mountain if you will to continue to provide as excellent a ministry as we can.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love your example of the kids age size rooms. Because I think you’ve you’re articulating a tension that whenever we’re, particularly for launching we talked a lot about this, like renovating other spaces and new campuses and all that, where I think really is germane to our job as executive pastor to to manage this tension of we want it feel, you know, the language you used was Cross standard. It’s absolutely has got to be Cross standard, but there will be areas where we’re going to have to compromise. Like that is just true. And a part of what we have to do, we have to use our leadership and our discernment and, you know, get the right players in the room and have the conversation. And, you know, somebody using your example, somebody kids’ ministry to be like, no, we can’t combine them together. That’ll be terrible. And it’s like, we’re going to be fine. Like, we’ll figure it out, you know.

Eric Garza — Yeah [inaudible].

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s going to be okay. We’ll we’ll help that navigate. And that’s one example, but there’s a ton of those that can come up in these, you know, in these renovations for sure.

Eric Garza — Yeah, absolutely.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Eric Garza — and And people are always going to have opinions.

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — But I’ll say this from experience. And I mean, no ill intent towards anybody in your congregation or your ministry.

Rich Birch — No.

Eric Garza — Most of the people that are criticizing are the people that aren’t giving anyway. And so I’m not saying ignore them by any means. They’re part of your part of your ecosystem. They’re part of your church, they’re part of your flock.

Rich Birch — Yep. That’s very true.

Eric Garza — But it’s always with a grain of salt because the people that are really bought into your ministry are going to walk through those opportunities alongside you, ah hopefully with the best attitude that they possibly can muster up because this too shall pass.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Eric Garza — Right.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Eric Garza — If you’ve gone out in faith to plant or to grow or to expand your congregation, this is a temporary season. It’s not a permanent season. You won’t always be at three or four services, right? Or multiple services.

Eric Garza — At some point, if God is in this and you really believe He is, and I believe He is for many organizations and ministries, the timing will be right when you have a facility that can house what you need, or that can provide the amenities and space that you need. And so for parents, for givers, for guests, it is just letting them know as best you can, even subtly through announcements or even messages and say, hey, we’re in a season of growth and expansion. \ Growth doesn’t always look you know perfect. And so we have seasons where we’re going to navigate some some challenges and opportunities as best we can to get us to an end goal.

Eric Garza — This is a means to an end. What we’re going through is a means to get us to where we want to go as a ministry. And as long as you keep it at the forefront, tying it into the vision of the house, you’re going to see that in a large sense, you’re going to have people rally behind that idea and unfocused, if you will, from the constraints of their of the facility to the broader appeal of what God is doing in the ministry.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that is so good. Friends, you should go back and re-listen to what Eric just said there. That is some wise advice. And obviously from somebody that’s been in the trenches a lot, that’s been my experience as well. The people, the complainers, I’m reading through the book of Job right now. And I’m like, man, his friends are just like, this guy needs better friends.

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And that that reminded me of the people you’re talking about. Like…

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know, there’s these people who are just, you know, sniping from the cheap seats and they’re not really engaged in the mission where, man, those people that are right on in the middle of it, they’re like, let’s go, let’s lean in.

Rich Birch — And man, that’s the kind of person, I’m hoping as I transition into older age that I’m that person, you know, because we have a number of those people at our church that I look at that are like, these are incredible saints who have seen so much change. And who I’m sure lots of things annoy them, but they’re fired up for the mission. They’re excited in our case to reach unchurched people, to see people who far from Jesus connected.

Eric Garza — If you’re not changing, you’re not making progress, right?

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.

And the fact you the fact that your ministry is facing opportunities or obstacles rather disguised as opportunities is proof positive you’re going somewhere.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Eric Garza — You’re not a stagnant ministry. You’re not a you’re not a lazy ministry, right? You’re not apathetic. You’re really out in the field of vision that God has given you or to your senior leadership. And so it’s proof positive, right? And so take that as an badge of honor in some way to say, we must be doing something right.

Rich Birch — So good. Well, Eric, just as we’re coming to kind of land, this has been a great conversation, hopefully been helpful for you, friends, as you’ve have been listening in. But as we kind of come to land today’s conversation, what’s a question or two that that you’re kicking around for this year at at Cross as you’re thinking about 2026? Where’s your head at? What are the things you’re wondering? It doesn’t have to be about this, could be anything.

Eric Garza — Yeah, well, ah thanks for letting me speak into that, Rich. I think for me as an executive and looking at our ministry, you know, looking at the previous 30 years and looking at the next decade, if you will, of where God is going to take our ministry, being one of America’s fastest growing churches, being the largest bilingual Hispanic-led ministry in the country. We’ve, you know, like I’ve said in a previous episode with you, we haven’t had any precedent for us in our context. And so we’ve navigated a lot of uncharted waters and learned from both wins and losses and different opportunities and struggles to get us to where we’re at now.

Eric Garza — I think one of the biggest questions facing the church at large in 2026 is how the church is going to respond to the ever increasingly fast-paced changes that we’re seeing on the political front, on the cultural front. I’m not saying that the church has to be a political response. The church has to be, has to provide a biblical response to what we’re seeing.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Eric Garza — And with the fast paced nature of culture and society and trends, I don’t believe it’s the church’s responsibility to respond to every trend or to everything, but certainly the overarching elements of our current culture and political dynamic where there is a biblical either mandate or precedent for it, that the church would speak it into that and provide biblical perspective…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Eric Garza — …and and and wisdom for how people should think about certain topics that have a biblical or moral prerogative. And so navigating that as an organization, because as a growing church and being such a large ministry, if you can imagine the opinions. We have people in our church who are conservative and who some who are not. We have people who belong to one political party over another. We’re in multiple communities. And so different communities have different demographics, different cultural contexts, different policy initiatives. There’s a lot going on.

Eric Garza — And as a church ministry, especially as that we’re multisite, one of the biggest questions I’m asking myself and our team is how do we, number one, stay biblically founded, right? And unwavering in what the biblical standard is.

Eric Garza — Number two is how do we address the different things and different occurrences in different communities that we’re in? If we were just one site and one community, well, then we would just be I guess you could say in our own little space and our own little focus. But we have multisites, so we have multi-focus, if you will, at how we continue to provide as excellent a ministry as possible…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Eric Garza — …keeping Jesus at the forefront, above the fray, and at the same time, giving a biblical perspective so that people have the right biblical worldview for how to walk out their journey of faith their relationship with Christ, but at the same time, how to respond to what’s happening in our world. I think for many times, for for many years, really for decades, the church has abdicated its biblical responsibility, if you will, to speak into things, not from a political perspective, but from a biblical perspective.

Eric Garza — And because that abdication of responsibility we’ve seen a lot of things that have happened. Thankfully, in recent seasons, in recent years, we’ve seen a a shift where faith is now at the forefront. And so though I have that question, my biggest, I guess you could say prerogative is to leverage that people are focused more on faith, that people are open to faith now more so in our country, that people are focused more on this person of Jesus and is to leverage that as an opportunity to really hone in and speak into people’s hearts and minds and into the different communities that we’re in so that they have the right biblical perspective, the biblical worldview to carry out what God has enabled them or called them to do.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love I love what you’re saying there. And you know I know had a friend say, you know if you’re, you know, we we all are serving in a context. We serve in a particular time, in a particular cultural context, and God’s called us to lead in that context. And if you’re not feeling the pull from, you know, multiple sides, multiple polarities, you’re like, well, everybody here agrees with me then it means you’re not actually reaching your community, you know. And the fact that you’re feeling that tension means, okay, like there’s there’s people from a wide variety of, and it can be all different political is one, but there’s lots of different ways to think of that.

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And yeah, that’s that’s so true. I really appreciate this. Well, Eric, you’re you’re a blessing to us. I thank you so much for for giving us time today and helping us think about these things as we kick off into 2026. If where do we want to send people if they want to track with you or with the church?

Rich Birch — How do we how do we want to get people connected to Cross?

Eric Garza — Yeah, well, Rich, thanks for the opportunity. And it’s what a blessing for us and for me personally to be able to just share some thoughts. And if it helps anybody, well, praise God for that. I think if you want to follow the church, we’re crosschurchonline.com or crosschurchrgv on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, all of, you know, most of the social media platforms.

Eric Garza — If you want to connect with me, I’d be happy to connect with you at Eric, E-R-I-C-P Garza on any of social media platforms. It’d be a h privilege for me to help you guys and to share some thoughts and even answer questions. I’d be more than happy to do that. If I can serve your ministries in any way, by all means, feel free to reach out to me on any of the social media platforms.

Rich Birch — Nice. Thanks so much, Eric. Really appreciate being here today, sir. Thank you.

Eric Garza — Thank you, man. God bless. Appreciate it.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re sitting down with an executive pastor from a prevailing church to unpack what leaders like you shared in the National Executive Pastor Survey so you can lead forward with clarity.

In today’s episode, we’re joined by Kayra Montañez, Executive Pastor at Liquid Church in New Jersey. Liquid is a fast-growing multisite church with six campuses stretching from Princeton to communities just outside New York City. In this conversation, Kayra helps unpack one of the biggest concerns surfaced in the National Executive Pastor Survey: the growing gap between attendance and engagement. While many churches are seeing people return, far fewer leaders feel confident that those people are truly connected, discipled, and serving.

Is your church seeing full rooms but thin volunteer pipelines? Are you unsure how engaged people really are beyond weekend services? Kayra offers practical insight into why that gap exists—and what churches can do to close it.

To learn more about Liquid Church, visit liquidchurch.com, or connect with Kayra directly via email.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got a special episode on today where we’re diving into some of the results from the National Executive Pastor Survey. And today we’re super excited to have Kayra Montañez with us from Liquid Church in New Jersey.

Rich Birch — And today we’re talking all about engagement. One of the things that jumped out, well, one of the top tier results, kind of concerns that came out, 10% of executive pastors in the open questions, expressed fear around discipleship death depth and volunteer sustainability. At the same time, nearly 12% said they lacked really visibility into participation and involvement data. Another 6% pointed specifically to volunteer and team metrics really being an unmet need, not knowing where they are.

Rich Birch — So what does that all that mean? Roughly one in five executive pastors are entering 2026 this year, wondering really how engaged their churches are. And Kayra is going to solve all that for us. So Kayra, welcome to the show. Tell us about Liquid. Tell us a little bit about the church.

Kayra Montañez — Well I appreciate the vote of confidence but I’m not sure about that. But, Rich, it’s always so great to be with you and to be a guest on your podcast. Thank you so much for having me. So yes, we are in New Jersey. So our church is called Liquid. I get the incredible privilege of serving there as one of two executive pastors. And we are a multisite church. We have six campuses. If you and know anything about New Jersey, one of them is the furthest one is in Princeton, New Jersey – a lot of people know Princeton.

Kayra Montañez — And then probably the closest one that we have up north is closest to New York City, about 30 minutes from the city. So that kind of gives you the breadth and width of how we’re trying to saturate the state of New Jersey with the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is our mission.

Rich Birch — So good. And Kayra, I really appreciate you jumping in on on today’s conversation, particularly in this area, because I think, man, have so much to offer. You know, so many of our churches, we feel like the volunteer pipelines are thin. How are we getting? It’s like people are underutilized. Maybe are our follow-up process are like overly complex. And you’ve done a great job on on this area. So let’s just jump right in.

Rich Birch — Where do you see some of the biggest gaps today in churches, whether it’s Liquid or other churches you interact, between, you know, getting people to attend church attendance and actual engagement. There’s a gap there. what What’s driving that? What do what do you think drives that gap in our churches?

Kayra Montañez — Yeah. So I see a couple of things. But before I get to that, you know, I just really wanted to start with something really encouraging because it’s not in my nature to be discouraging. So one of the things that I have noticed, in fact, I was actually spending some time with other pastors from other states in the U.S. And we were talking about like, hey, what is the Lord doing in the in the Big C Church? What are you experiencing in your context?

Rich Birch — So good.

Kayra Montañez — And one of the things I think that was a theme for all of us is it feels like we don’t have to work as hard to get people to come and be ready for what the Lord has for them. And that feels very exciting.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — And that’s like a theme that I’m seeing repeated across the entire nation with all of my pastor friends from different locations. Having said that, there are still things that we have to do to get people from going to just attending to engaging, like you were saying. I think there’s a couple of things that I saw.

Kayra Montañez — One of them is a big one, I would say, is like this idea of, attending versus belonging, right. So like first people actually want to come, but they don’t actually join people systems. So they come in person, they come online, but they don’t actually join any kind of people system. So when I say people system I’m thinking about groups, or dream teams, a support group, a class. That’s actually something that we started seeing a lot post-pandemic, and I would say it’s still here. So that’s one gap that I see.

Kayra Montañez — The second gap that I see is digital versus relational. So obviously, we at Liquid have spent a lot of, we’ve invested a lot in our digital ministry, and we really believe online and in-person can both thrive at the same time, and we’re seeing that.

Kayra Montañez — However, online services, while they can remove barriers, which is good, it also helps people stay anonymous unless there’s a clear bridge for those people to actually join in-person community. And so churches that haven’t figured out well how to do that will continue to see a gap between people who are attending, whether it’s in person or online, but not actually engaging.

Kayra Montañez — There’s also the people who just come for big events, right?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — We’re approaching one of them, even as we film this podcast, next week is Christmas Eve. So we joke at Liquid, we have the CEOs, they come for Christmas, Easter, and other big events, but they don’t actually have a weekly rhythm of attending and engaging.

Kayra Montañez — And then there’s people who I would say are curious about serving and for the most part are open to helping, but are not really ready to make a serving commitment and actually take on a very consistent role. So I would say across the breadth and width of churches, that’s probably something that would hit most people, no matter where you are.

Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.

Kayra Montañez — Definitely we experience all of them at Liquid.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I there was a lot there, in which I appreciate. and i appreciate the way you’ve kind of diagnosed. I think there’s multiple ways to kind of um diagnose or kind of pick apart – Hey, here are different aspects here, or different ways that we’re seeing this kind of attendance versus engagement question. So maybe, you know, pick apart those attending versus belonging. What has Liquid done? What are you doing to try to help move people from just attending, actually getting into those people systems? What does that? What are you learning on that front?

Kayra Montañez — Yeah. You know, we’ve had a major shift at Liquid, I would say, in the past two years. The best way that I can explain this is with a gaming analogy, because I have teenagers and they love gaming.

Rich Birch — I love it.

Kayra Montañez — So if you um go back to when we used to play Mario Brothers, you remember Mario Brothers?

Rich Birch — Sure, yeah.

Kayra Montañez — Mario Brothers has prescribed path where if you did not follow the path, at some point Mario would die. Like if you stayed behind and the camera kept moving, the character would die. You remember that?

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Kayra Montañez — And that’s the way that a lot of churches, even today, approach helping people connect. There is a prescribed path for you, and we’re going to tell you what you need to do and what you have to do. Then Zelda came into the scene and Zelda is like, hey, choose your own adventure. You can start your adventure anywhere you want.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kayra Montañez — And so I feel like Liquid, we’ve shifted in that. We used to be Mario Brothers, like, hey, here’s a prescribed path for you. Here’s all the things that you have to do to connect. Whereas now we’ve shifted over the past two years into like, hey, we have a lot of things that we can offer you. And there are many different things depending on your season of life, on your felt needs, on what you’re looking for, on what you’re interested in, on what makes your heart beat. Tell us what you want to do and we’re going to help you.

Kayra Montañez — And so in order for us to understand what is it that people want, we created an event that we do every month called Connect and Conversation. And the whole idea and the way that we market it is if you’re new to Liquid, or if you are not new, but you haven’t connected yet, you haven’t found your people, you haven’t found something that you want to be a part of, come to this event.

Kayra Montañez — We feed you. We get to know you. And then we follow up personally with you. It’s very high level concierge, kind of a follow up system, where after we connect with you, we ask you, hey, what are you actually interested in? What are you looking for? Because your needs as an empty nester who’s been married for over 25 years, you’re parenting adult children who are already married are very different than mine who have two team have two teenagers.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — One of them is about to go to college, right?

Rich Birch — Yep, yep.

Kayra Montañez — And so that has actually produced incredible fruit from getting people who are attending.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — Now I’ve actually offered them something they’re interested in, which is making connections with people. And then from there, we follow up to offer, what do you need?

Rich Birch — That’s so cool.

Kayra Montañez — And everybody has different needs. Some people just wanna join teams because they’re just like, I just wanna serve. Some people, they really just need a lot of care. And so maybe they need a support group and we’re gonna offer that to you.

Kayra Montañez — Some people may need marriage mentoring. We’re gonna offer that to you. So it really depends. And what we’ve seen is people taking significant next steps once they go out of that event. And that has really changed the past. In the past, we would only be marketing teams and groups, role and relationship, join, ah you know, get into a role and connect with a relationship. And while that’s still good, I’m not saying that’s not good or not needed.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kayra Montañez — It’s not the only thing that people are looking for.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s interesting. Can we, I’d love to dive just a little deeper on on that because I think there’s ah a really key learning there for lots of us. This idea, and you didn’t say it this way, but where my brain went to, you know, I think we have, we have for sure in the past done the thing where it’s like we have these giant funnels that we’re pushing everyone through.

Rich Birch — And and the only question we’re really asking is where do you fit in our funnel?

Kayra Montañez — Correct.

Rich Birch — Like where, You know, and we and we push and literally, and this is no, you know, kind of slam on other systems, but it’s like, this is the, you know, step one, step two, step three, everyone do step one first, then you do step two, then you do step three.

Rich Birch — So the the connecting conversation, that feels like highly, like it’s volunteer intensive. You got to get a lot of volunteers in there because it sounds like you’re having one-on-one conversations or something close to one-on-one. Unpack what that looks like. Maybe as a guest, if I arrive at that, what do I actually experience when I show up there?

Kayra Montañez — So you you can register up until the time that we have the event.

Rich Birch — Yep, that’s great.

Kayra Montañez — So we do math you know magical math with the food and and the preparation so that we can just accept people who are going to come on the day of. Because we promote it, obviously, every week. And then the day of, we actually promote it. We get most people to show up the day of the event.

Rich Birch — Right, okay.

Kayra Montañez — So people will come. There’s going to be a lunch. And then they’re going to sit at a table with about five other people who have a facilitator at that table.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Kayra Montañez — And that facilitator is actually going to lead them through a series of relational icebreakers because the event is designed for you to first connect. You want to meet other people who are just like you. Maybe they’re new or they’re not new, but they haven’t connected yet with somebody.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kayra Montañez — And so there’s going to be a lot of relational icebreakers you know during the first part of the event. And then after that, we get into like, hey, what are you looking for? What are you hoping to get out of? What do you need? What are you interested in? We make notes.

Rich Birch — How can we help? All that kind of stuff.

Kayra Montañez — That facilitator takes really good notes based on what people are saying. And then the follow-up begins.

Rich Birch — That’s so cool. I love that. That’s what a great learning. You know, I think so many times we’ve seen that step and for sure that echoes what I’ve seen in in a number of churches. There’s really a trend away from the class being the first step.

Rich Birch — It’s like the stand that we used to do that thing where it was like, okay, someone stands up at the front and they’re going to talk for 50 minutes about why we’re such a great church. And, ah you know, that really has gone away. I would I would echo that, that we’ve seen that as ah as a best practice for sure. So let’s talk…

Kayra Montañez — When we do measure…

Rich Birch — Sorry, go ahead. No.

Kayra Montañez — …oh sorry, as I was to say, we measure the activity of everyone who goes to Connect in Conversation and what they do.

Rich Birch — Oh, that, tell me about that.

Kayra Montañez — And so there’s, or ah how we say it at Liquid is it’s correlation, not causation. Like I can’t prove that if you go to this event, your next steps were a direct result of this event…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Kayra Montañez — …but we can correlate that because you came to the event you actually took these next steps, if that makes sense.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — So we’ve seen tremendous, tremendous engagement grow because of that.

Rich Birch — And that’s on Sundays. You do it on on campus after the last service, that sort of thing.

Kayra Montañez — Every month. Yes, every month at every campus after the last service, we promote it up to the day of the event…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Kayra Montañez — …and we do it rain or shine. Whether it’s five people or 10 or 50, obviously at our largest location, sometimes we have about 100 people show up every month to these events.

Rich Birch — That’s great. I love that. That’s a great. You’re coming in hot, Kayra. Great learnings, even you know, with friends, we’ve got through the first question.

Rich Birch — So yeah, and we’re, you know, it’s fantastic. So one of the one of the things I’d love to hear a little bit about, um you know, that when we look in the data, people’s anxiety, there’s there seems to be some anxiety around or concern around discipling people. We offer these discipleship pathways or engagement pathways. And it’s like, we do this stuff, but then people don’t actually take advantage of it. It’s like, we do, we offer small groups, but people don’t do them. Or people we offer classes and people don’t actually engage on them.

Rich Birch —What are you doing to try to move to, to ensure people are actually engaging with the various pathways that you’re developing at Liquid to actually get them to use them?

Kayra Montañez — So this is a very interesting question in this particular time because at Liquid we’re just about getting ready to or just ready to ah blow up small groups basically.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice. Okay. I’d love to hear more.

Kayra Montañez — Yeah, so I would say that small groups was the one metric that did not recover for our church post-pandemic. So even though our volunteer pipelines at times felt thin, we were able to have incredible momentum around that. We can talk more about that later. How did we do that? We recovered in attendance and giving, baptism, but we were not able to crack the code on small groups. We were at an all-time low, about 20% our church…

Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — …was engaged in small groups, pretty low. And so we started surveying people.

Rich Birch — Yep.

We’re like, what is it that people actually want from the small groups? Like, what is it that we’re not offering that they’re looking for? And the one, it was shocking to us that the number one thing, I mean, it shouldn’t be shocking because we are a church.

Kayra Montañez — The number one thing that people wanted was to understand the Bible. So for the first time ever, we have uncoupled relational connection from biblical literacy. In the past, our small groups, the thing that was in the driver’s seat, I would say, was the relational connection. We wanted people to connect, to join a group so that they could make friends, do life together. We used to um promote it that way, if you remember. Do life together. Where are the people that you’re doing life together?

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Kayra Montañez — For the first time ever, we’re actually putting biblical literacy in the front seat and relational connection on the passenger seat. So you will actually make connections, but that’s not the goal of this process right now. The process is for you to actually understand and read and study the word of God. In fact, our new tagline is to know the word of God so that you can love the God of the word.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. And is that so if you change the the container that that fits in or are you changing the like, like…

Kayra Montañez — We did. We changed the container.

Rich Birch — So what’s that look like?

Kayra Montañez — So right now we’re offering people different levels of biblical literacy.

Kayra Montañez — The biggest vehicle that we’re that we just piloted this fall through the book of Revelations, if you can believe it. So we’re like, why not start with the hardest book of the Bible?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kayra Montañez — And what we did was we created a Bible study midweek on a Wednesday night where people would go in person and study the word of God in tables with other people. Now, obviously there’s facilitators who have been trained and vetted. And once you join a table, that was kind of like the table that you were going to go on this journey with, but it’s not a small group. It’s a, it’s a short term. It was 10 weeks. We went through the entire book of Revelations, 22 chapters. We would do homework in order to get ready for this midweek study, we would come, we would have a conversation around what did you put in question 10?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — What did I write? This was hard, I don’t understand. And then there was teaching.

Kayra Montañez — And we also piloted doing that same thing with our high school students so that parents could actually come with their kids on the same day, drop their high school kiddos in their own cohort, and then they would go to their own biblical midweek you know Bible study.

Kayra Montañez — And that was, too, a great success. So we are trying to figure out like what are the appropriate levels of biblical literacy that we can offer a congregation…

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Kayra Montañez — …that is increasingly illiterate in biblic in in the Bible.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — And deep dive, make no mistake, is the highest level. So that’s not for everyone. And we understand that. And so the parts that we’re trying to figure out is what’s like the appropriate next level to that for somebody who’s not willing to come in person 10 weeks to do homework and study, you know, the actual Bible.

Kayra Montañez — But, it was fascinating to just uncouple those two things for the first time. And I would say it’s in the right frame of, in the right approach. You’re still making friends.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kayra Montañez — You’re just not, that’s just not being the driver.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, I do wonder. So we for sure have seen that. I’ve seen this conversation. I don’t claim to be a small groups expert. I never have.

Kayra Montañez — Me neither.

Rich Birch — Like for 20, 30 years, it’s always been a mystery to me. I’m like, it’s like hard. It’s a hard system to run and to to build. And, but for sure, post COVID it it is, I would say that’s a universal concern that it’s like, whatever we used to do, I see this all over the place, whatever we used to do to try to get people into groups, we don’t do that anymore. We’re doing something completely different. I happen to be at Liquid this fall. I think you were speaking at a conference when I was there. Bummer…

Kayra Montañez — I was, I missed you. Yeah.

Rich Birch — And I saw the deep dive. I think that’s what it was called.

Kayra Montañez — Yes.

Rich Birch — Deep dive that night. And I remember, i remember thinking, I was like, Whoa, this is like, ah this is incredible. Like, you know, I don’t know how many people were there that night. There was a ton of people all lined up and ready to go. I’m like, that’s, That’s cool. I love that.

Rich Birch — Well, let’s pivot. You kind of flagged it there, the volunteer piece.

Kayra Montañez — Yes.

Rich Birch — I’d love to know what you’re learning on this front, you know, to rebuild volunteer culture. We had this kind of, I don’t know when we’ll stop saying post-COVID. I don’t know whether we’ll be like that generation that was like after the like war or like after the depression where like for 40 years we’re going to be talking about it.

Rich Birch — But it does still feel like we’re post-COVID. I don’t know when that is. But what have you done to kind of restart? How what’s going well on that front externally? Liquid feels like a incredibly volunteer you know robust culture – help us understand what’s that looking like what are you learning these days?

Kayra Montañez — Sure. Yeah. I mean everything you said is still very much a factor. I mean, we are constantly having to work at this. This is never going to be a problem that I feel we’re ever going to solve. It’s really a tension that we’re managing. And sometimes tension feels better and sometimes it doesn’t feel good.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kayra Montañez — In fact, this year, I would say in March, we probably had like our biggest crisis in the broadcast campus where our church growth so far outpaced the amount of people that were serving that we were finding ourselves having to close rooms for Liquid family…

Rich Birch — Ooh.

Kayra Montañez — …not because we we hit ratios, but because we didn’t have enough volunteers. And that doesn’t feel great…

Rich Birch — No.

Kayra Montañez — …especially if you’re a new here family, right?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kayra Montañez — And so we were like, all right, we need to do something really aggressive. And the best way that I can explain it is we did like a try before you buy.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Kayra Montañez — Very low approach…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — …low hanging fruit. We said, hey, we we casted a vision, right? It’s never about we need volunteers, but we actually told a really significant story of where’s all the fruit that the Lord is bringing to this church, all the spiritual fruit that we’re seeing, like people are getting saved, people are getting baptized, they’re coming to get to know Jesus, they’re studying the Bible.

Kayra Montañez — It was incredible.

Kayra Montañez — But we need people to use their spiritual gifts. And so we came up with a campaign called For the One. And everything was geared for that one person. Like, who’s who are you going to go serve? Who’s the one that you’re going to go serve?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Kayra Montañez — And the try before you buy was, we’re going to give you a hoodie. We designed a hoodie. It was called, it was, you know, at the tagline For the One. And the key is you only get it after you serve a couple of times.

Rich Birch — Okay, that’s cool.

Kayra Montañez — So this is the try before you buy. You know, you’re going to try it out.

Rich Birch — Yes.

You’re not going to go through the whole background, pipeline, covenant process because we need people now and we need them quick.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — So you’re trying before you’re buying. But if you like it and we’re going to make sure that first serve experience is incredible for you, then we want you to buy it.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Kayra Montañez — And we’re going to reward you by giving you swag that’s limited, exclusive. Not everybody’s going to get it. Rich, you would be surprised. Like I’m still to this day, i have been at Liquid, it’ll be 13 years in April. And I am still shocked by how much people, the gamification of playing to people’s particular interests…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Kayra Montañez — …whether it’s FOMO, they don’t want to miss out, whether it’s the idea of collecting exclusive apparel.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — There’s something here for everyone that just draws people out.

Rich Birch — It’s true. It’s true.

Kayra Montañez — We had over 400 people sign up for the one.

Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. That’s great.

Kayra Montañez — It was incredible. And we were able to tell amazing stories of people who were coming and showing up and serving, whether it was our special needs kiddos or high school whatever you want to call it. We had it. And and I would say the appeal of a try before you buy, how can you shortchange without? So this is key. You don’t want to reduce the quality. But you do want to shorten your pipeline so that you can get people quicker to try it. And then once they actually feel like, hey, I really enjoy this, now we’re going to get you through the whole, you know, rest of the process, right? But you can still serve while we do that.

Kayra Montañez — So that was a huge thing. And then obviously, you know, like the free apparel swag, that always is a nice incentive to give to people. So that was huge.

Rich Birch — It’s true.

Kayra Montañez — It was very successful. And that’s what I would recommend is like, hey, can you run, try before you buy little events with like swag, and like you you get you have people serve for a limited amount of time. Like you don’t give them the swag immediately. You make them work for it.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Kayra Montañez — They got to serve three, four times before you give it to them.

Rich Birch — Yeah, we did a similar thing last summer. Our kids ministry team did a similar thing last summer where we did the summer serve, which we hadn’t done in in actually a number of years. And they they pulled that out and did summer serve. And it was the same thing. If you signed up, you got a t-shirt, a specific t-shirt for that.

Rich Birch — And then you, there was, they basically were asking you to serve once in June, once in July, once in August, like once a month, just for the summertime. And if you served, um I forget exactly what the ratio was, but it was, you got entered in a draw for however many times. And basically, so if you served all three, you got like 10 times the number of draw things to win. And it was all this stuff that you, you could win. And it was like really great gifts.

Kayra Montañez — Yes.

Rich Birch — And you would think that that should not motivate people.

Kayra Montañez — But it does.

Rich Birch — But it does.

Kayra Montañez — It does.

Rich Birch — And and you know and it was and, you know, they did it in really fun, you know, hey this is going to be a fun thing to be a part of. Talk to me about the, because there’s a friction thing there to learn around trying to reduce the friction the kind of onboarding friction, I think over time that stuff can become, you know, it’s, it’s the, we actually are like our, we can become just too hard for our people.

Kayra Montañez — Yeah.

Rich Birch — What did you learn through that process in, in trying to find that balance of like, we want to make it easier to onboard people, but we still want to, is there any kind of lessons from that when you look back on that?

Kayra Montañez — To me, the the lesson really is, again, there is a tension between you can’t shortchange, especially when it comes to kids. I can’t emphasize this enough.

Rich Birch — No, yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Kayra Montañez — Like I oversee all of these ministries and it would be not on my watch will will this happen, right?

Rich Birch — No, yeah, yeah.

Kayra Montañez — So we have to make be very sure that we’re not shortchanging the safety procedures.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep.

Kayra Montañez — At the same time recognizing these things can take some time, right? Like we ask people to get a background check, they have to be interviewed, they have to sign a covenant, they have to have a reference. I mean, these things this is a lengthy process.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kayra Montañez — And I stand by it. We have to do that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — At the same time, can we actually live in a world where we are marrying our need to have someone in the room while also still doing all of these things simultaneously, not actually waiting for all of this to happen so that then they can come.

Kayra Montañez — And that’s kind of how we figured it out. Our Liquid family pastor came up with a process where she’s like, okay, we can shorten it this time. They’re only going to do these three things, not four, not six. But while they’re in the room trying it, we’re going to continue to do the other remaining four.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Kayra Montañez — It’s messy. It’s not always the best thing to do in an ideal world. You are not doing that. But when you’re faced with crisis, then you need to come up with, you know, resourceful ideas.

Kayra Montañez — And so what I would say about the volunteer pipeline is this. There are short-term problems that you have to solve while you’re still working on this very long-term. Like this is a culture that you have to create.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — And in order for you to create a culture, you have to tell stories. You have to celebrate what you want to be repeated. have to make people feel thanked, encouraged, appreciated, seen. You those are all long-term things that you have to be doing all the time. This is like nonstop.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Can’t take the, you can’t take the gas off that pedal for sure. Pedal off that gas.

Kayra Montañez — Correct. You cannot take your foot off the the pedal. But at the same time, there are things that are short term that you really do have to also do. And sometimes that will require teaching from the stage where you’re actually envisioning people about why this matters so much.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Kayra Montañez — And this is what we did in March with the For the One. So I would say it’s it’s both/and; it’s not either/or. And so if that’s helpful, that’s how I would approach it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s super good. That’s good. If there was a church that was, if you were sitting across the table from an executive pastor, maybe you’re at a conference or someone drops in your office and they’re, they’re feeling really stuck on this engagement issue. They feel low. Like it’s people were, maybe it’s groups, it’s teams, it’s all of it. Like it’s, we’re not moving people through any kind of pipeline.

Rich Birch — What would be some of those first steps or first recommendations, first things you’d have them look at, maybe like a diagnostic or a first couple of things that you’d have them think about in this area?

Kayra Montañez — Well, I would say if there’s a way for them to know of the people who are attending and maybe they figure this out with new here, how many of those people take one next step within the first month?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kayra Montañez — That would be one diagnostic that I would first see if I can do with the data that I have and the data that they collect and they actually figured that out.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s good.

Kayra Montañez — If they’re able to do that, then the next diagnostic would be what percent actually move into a people system…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — …whether it’s a group, a deep dive experience, a dream team within 60 to 90 days, right?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kayra Montañez — Because if you do that, you’re going to find the blockage. You’re actually going to discover Maybe our attendance is fine. We don’t have an invest and invite problem, but maybe what we have a problem with is our conversion rate. And so then you can start to identify what is it about our conversion that we need to fix?

Kayra Montañez — Is it that we have ah unclear on-ramps? Or is it that our processes are too high friction? It’s too hard people to get involved. If you actually find like, no, actually people are taking next steps. Great. But they’re not sticking to it. Then you have a different problem. Then you can actually diagnose…

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Kayra Montañez — …oh, maybe the first serve experience actually wasn’t sticky enough. It wasn’t welcoming. Maybe there were issues with scheduling. Maybe we didn’t give clear information. So you can kind of figure out what the problem is based on how you’re measuring it and what you’re discovering. That’s how I would start if I didn’t know what the problem was. Does that make sense?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. That makes total sense. And, you know, it it definitely aligns with one of my bugaboos that I constantly driving with executive pastors. When you look at the actual numbers—I and I have not run into a church yet that this is not the case—most churches actually have a front door problem. They don’t have a back door problem. They their actual problem that we think we feel like, oh, like people aren’t sticking and staying in groups, they’re not staying and volunteering. But statistically, that’s actually not true. When most of the time, if you look at, okay, all the people that end up in a group, what is the kind of churn rate on that? Whatever that number is, I’ve never seen a church where it’s higher than the people we’re missing on the front end with exactly with what you said is how many people are removing from new here to taking the first step in the first month?

Rich Birch — Because that you lose a ton of people in that door right there. That is a, you know, by a multiple of 10 or 20, like it’s a lot more that we’re missing out. And, you know, generally in most churches…

Kayra Montañez — And can I just [inaudible] to that?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — Because I just want encourage people, like, figure out a way to target your new here audience.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Kayra Montañez — So at Liquid, for example, if you come for the first time, not only do we encourage, highly encourage you to tell us that you’re here for the first time because we give you an awesome gift.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kayra Montañez — Lots of churches do this, but then we survey people who came for the first time.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — And based on what they answer, they receive a custom follow-up process for the first 30 days.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — We don’t, so in that regard, like it is worth to look at that.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kayra Montañez — Because you’re going to find out a lot of information and a lot of data about what people are choosing to do, where are they going, why they’re not sticking to it or why they’re not even going in the first place.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kayra Montañez — Like I’m shocked that I’ve been to churches sometimes to speak and they don’t actually really do like a new here call out. Like they don’t.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I was going to say that. You said, oh, churches do this.

Kayra Montañez — Maybe not.

Rich Birch — And I’d be like, Kayra, I’ve been to way too many churches where they don’t do any of that. And they’re like, well, we’re not really sure. And I’m like, this is a solvable problem. We can fix this.

Kayra Montañez — Yes. Yes.

Rich Birch — There’s like real things you can do here. Actually, I worked with a church last year, a fairly large church in 2024, where they were experiencing some of these issues and so and I was like I basically said the same thing I just said, I’m like you’re losing people on the front end. And they’re like they’re like well we do a gift. And I’m like no you don’t. And I said there’s a and there’s a few things to fix around that. In 2025 the year we just ended, they received we made a few changes it’s not about me there’s about them they made a bunch of changes, they ended up receiving 5,000 more first-time guest contacts than they did 2024.

Kayra Montañez — Wow. Just like we’ve always told it to do.

Rich Birch — Now they did not grow by people but it’s just by focusing on that, right?

Kayra Montañez — Amazing.

Rich Birch — It’s just by like saying, hey, how are we what are we going to do to ensure that that step goes well with folks? So anyways, there’s huge opportunity there and in lots of churches. Kayra, you’ve been incredibly generous to give us your time at this time of year. As you’re thinking, kind of last question, as we’re thinking about 2026, what are some of those questions that are floating around in your head as you think about Liquid, as you think about the future? What are some things that you’re wrestling with that you’re wondering about that you’re contemplating as we go into this year?

Kayra Montañez — Oh my gosh, Rich, so many. After this conversation, you know, I really am interested to see what’s going to happen with our discipleship model since we just blew it up.

Rich Birch — Yes, yep.

Kayra Montañez — I’m helping all of that and changing the way that we even onboard leaders. Like I’m really invested in seeing this through.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Kayra Montañez — I also totally unrelated to this, but we just launched, I think in the survey, one of the questions that was asked was what’s the best idea that you had in 2025?

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, right.

Kayra Montañez — And I was like, well, I feel like one of our best ideas was to use AI to launch a Spanish service. And I am really invested in that in seeing like, how do we continue to grow that service? How do we continue to grow that ministry? We’re launching new ministries in 2025, or 2026. So that always feels exciting and daunting.

Kayra Montañez — So there’s just the work never ends. And there’s always it is an exciting and fascinating time to be in the church. I’ll say that.

Rich Birch — I would agree. I totally would agree. Yeah, it’s the best. I would think, literally, I think this is the best season that I’ve been involved in ministry for sure.

Rich Birch — For folks that don’t know what you’re doing with Spanish ministry, give us the 60 second, explain that again. Because I think I keep pointing churches to you saying, have you heard what Liquid’s doing? You go talk to them. So tell us about that.

Kayra Montañez — So basically we have a Spanish service. We do have live hosting in Español. We have live worship in Español. But then we take our English message and we pass it through an AI service called Heygen, which actually uses the communicator’s voice and matches the words to their lips and they’re just preaching, they preach it in Spanish. Even if they’re not bilingual, they will preach it in Spanish. And it’s like you, Rich, are speaking in Spanish. Your words match to your voice.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, it’s it’s amazing.

Kayra Montañez — People get to hear the the gospel and the message in their language. So it’s been fascinating to learn who we’re reaching, who’s coming, who likes that kind of a thing. You know, as a Spanish speaker myself, I’m like, would I go to a service where the message wasn’t actually authentic Spanish and it’s an AI generated?

Kayra Montañez — I believe in the quality of our communication so much that I actually have to say, yes, I would. Because like last year, this year, we took our entire church through the book of Revelation. Tim spent 25 weeks teaching us the hardest book of the Bible.

Kayra Montañez — The fruit that that endeavor produced is incredible. And so when I think about what we’re doing, I’m like, I believe in that so much that I do think this is a this is a thing that’s actually good to do. Even if people would who would think like, why would they go to that and not like an authentic Spanish speaker?

Rich Birch — Yeah, interesting. And that, and you’re, you’ve been a year, that’s been basically almost a year you’ve been doing that now.

Kayra Montañez — A year. A year.

Rich Birch — And, and you’re be continuing to do it. So obviously something’s working. There’s some sort of version of like, Hey, we’re, we feel.

Kayra Montañez — We’re continuing to do it. we’re seeing We’re seeing the fruit. We’re seeing baptisms, people giving their life to Christ, getting baptized, showing up and joining teams, um reaching families. We’re reaching multigenerational families where the parents go to the Spanish service, the kids go to the English service because it’s simultaneous, right? Well, the English is going on, the Spanish is going on. So families get to decide. It’s just really interesting to watch. Obviously, it’s been challenging in the U.S. to grow a Spanish service because of everything that’s been happening.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah…

Kayra Montañez — But it’s just been really fascinating to see like the dynamics of who we’re reaching, who’s is sharing like who’s excited about it, and then using technology to further the gospel. It’s always exciting.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. I know I was goofing around with Heygen a little bit. And the part that actually, this was you know almost a year ago when you guys started doing that that, one of the tests I ran that actually convinced me was, so I was like taking videos of me and I would send them to like a friend who speaks Spanish. And I sent to a friend who speaks, you know, a couple of languages that it was doing, but then I did the reverse. There’s a great church, Nouvelle Vie. It’s a French speaking church, large church, be very similar to Liquid, but they’re French speaking. And so I took one of the, the lead pastors from that. I took a clip of his message and translated into English. And I was blown away. I was like, Oh my word. Like,

Kayra Montañez — It is getting better and better every day.

Rich Birch — I was I was shocked. I was like, oh, that that is, yeah, could I tell? Yeah, but this guy’s an incredible communicator. And you know similar to you and Tim and the team at at Liquid, I’m like, I could see that work anyway.

Rich Birch — So that’s exciting. Kayra, it’s so great to see you.

Kayra Montañez — Thank you, Rich.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much for having time with us today. If people want to connect with you or with Liquid, where do we want to send them online?

Kayra Montañez — Sure. So my name Kayra, K-A-Y-R-A at liquidchurch.com. Happy to connect with anybody have questions.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Andrew Hopper, Lead Pastor of Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina. Planted in 2012 with just 30 people, Mercy Hill has grown into a multi-campus, fast-growing church known for its gospel clarity and sending culture. In this conversation, Andrew shares why adoption and foster care have become central expressions of Mercy Hill’s mission—and how those practices flow directly out of the gospel. He also unpacks the heart behind his book, Chosen: Building Your Family the Way God Builds His.

Is your church unsure how to engage big social needs without drifting from the gospel? Are you looking for a way to mobilize people beyond church walls while keeping discipleship front and center? Andrew offers a clear framework for doing both.

To explore Andrew’s resources on adoption, foster care, and grab his book, Chosen, visit andrewphopper.com/chosen or follow him on Instagram @andrewphopper. You can learn more about Mercy Hill Church at mercyhillchurch.com.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church

Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it!

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We have got a multi-time guest on, and you know what that means. That means that I really respect, deeply admire, and want you to listen up, and today is no exception. Excited to have Andrew Hopper with us. He is the lead pastor of a church that they should be following, that you should be following. He’s a lead pastor of Mercy Hill Church with five locations, if I’m counting correctly, in North Carolina, and is repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. I love this church on many levels. They’re centered on the gospel and have a radical commitment to sending people to the nations. They have a desire to make disciples and multiply churches. Andrew, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Andrew Hopper — Man, I’m so pumped to be here. Love the podcast. Really appreciate it, man.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I’m honored that you would come back. For folks that that don’t know Mercy Hill, give me a bit of a kind of an update. Tell us a little bit about the church.

Andrew Hopper — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Maybe update us from last time you were on.

Andrew Hopper — Yeah, man. So just real quick, planted in 2012. We had 30 people, all you know kind of young professional age, and man, just really believe that God could do something incredible ah through, you know just through our our open hands, and he did.

Andrew Hopper — And so it’s been 13 years. It’s crazy. We’ve been sort of pushing the same boulder up the same mountain for 13 years, just flywheel kind of concept and keep pushing. And ah the Lord has done an incredible thing, like you said, five campuses. And man, just moved into a new home and hub. That was from last time we had a chance. That’s been really great.

Andrew Hopper — We were in a rented location for a long time as our main like broadcast campus. We’re a video-based multi-site. And so um it’s ah it was a three or four-year journey to raise the money and build this new facility. But we’re in, and the Lord has really blessed that with tons of new people, highest baptisms, sent ones, first time guest numbers, all everything that we’ve done. This has been a, you know, we’ve gone been on a ride – praise God for that. It’s it’s, um, it’s for his sake and his renown, but this year has been unlike the others. So it’s been…

Rich Birch — Yeah, you were saying beforehand, it’s like 30 or something like 30 some percent year over year growth. That’s insane to keep up with.

Andrew Hopper — It is man. And the, and the giving does not, uh, you know, the giving doesn’t happen.

Rich Birch — Reflect that yet.

Andrew Hopper — So it’s, it’s like, we’re trying to do ministry on a budget of a church that’s 3000, but a church that’s running 4,500. And it’s like, how do you do that effectively without killing everybody?

Rich Birch — Nice.

Andrew Hopper — All your staff, I mean, so, but we’re, we’re learning, man, we’re figuring it out. It’s fun. We got, we just planted our sixth church. So that’s apart from the campuses. This is first time, Rich, we’ve planted a church in our own city.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice. That’s cool.

Andrew Hopper — It’s been really, a really cool dynamic and it’s been fun. He’s doing great. Man, it was a college student that we met when he was 19 years old at North Carolina AT&T 10 years later. He’s an elder here. He’s done a lot of different things. And man, he goes and plants a new church in Greensboro about five minutes from one of our campuses and they’re doing great.

Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, that’s so good. Well, the thing, there’s lots I love about Mercy Hill, but one of the things that I’ve loved about your church from the you know the chance we’ve had to journey a little bit over the years about it is you just have real clarity around the mission, this idea of making disciples, multiplying churches. It’s like that has been rock solid from the beginning. When you think about we want churches to have discipleship at its core, this idea of a church that actually grows people up in their relationship with Christ. What matters most at the foundation? How are you keeping that so foundational to you know what’s happening at Mercy Hill?

Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I think um I think that we always sort of bought into kind of what we see in Acts 2 as a little bit of a flywheel. We call it gather, group, give, go. A lot of churches have something like that.

Andrew Hopper — The the difference, I think, at Mercy Hill a little bit than what I see ah in in in a lot of churches that we help mentor and coach is that 2020 hit and everybody was like, man, what is a church? What is discipleship? What are we going to do now? And and people were kind of… And I do think it was and it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t just me. I mean, our, you know, our executive pastor Bobby, he was really integral in this. We sort of really doubled down on no, I kind of think the church is going to come back.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — And I kind of think what we were doing is sort of what our church is set up to do. It kind of a brand thing. We are sort of a big box sending brand. And that, you know, for us, when we look at Acts 2, we’re like, dude, the gathering, there’s no more there’s no more important hour for discipleship and evangelism. And I know there’s a lot of things written against that. And people are kind of almost like downplaying it.

Andrew Hopper — We’re just like, man, we just don’t believe it. We believe people need to be in a group. You know, we they need generosity is lead step in discipleship, give. And we got to teach people that there’s a mission bigger than themselves. And if we do that, it’s going to funnel more people into the gathering.

Andrew Hopper — So I think fundamentally what I would say, we need to get, you know, we could talk about our value, you know we can talk about values to gospel and [inaudible] identity, but I think landing on you know, it’s very hard now to, to not get a word salad book form or thing. When you ask somebody, how are you making disciples? It can just be like…

Rich Birch — Right. Very vacuous. Who knows what that means? Yeah.

Andrew Hopper — For us, it’s just been a very clear, simple process.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — Like, man, we believe if someone is in the gathering, if they’re in relationship, if they’re being pushed on generosity, and if they’re living for a mission bigger than themselves, that’s a current of maturity that will move them. They just get in the stream, they’ll move.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so good.

Andrew Hopper — that’s kind of So you know for us, I think that’s as, you know we’ve we’ve tried to simplify things there.

Rich Birch — Yeah. And, and your last episode, I’ve pointed a ton of people to it, uh, to really, and we really unpack a lot of what you talked about there in more detail.

Andrew Hopper — Right. Yeah.

Rich Birch — You’re going to want to go back and, uh, and listen to that. You’ve reached as a church, you’ve reached a lot of people who don’t grow up in church that it’s like, there’s a lot of people who are there. You know, we used to say we ain’t your mama’s church, but mama didn’t go to church, you know? So, you know, and it’s been a long time that people were there. What challenges have you seen, you know, helping move people from curiosity into real ongoing discipleship? So like, I think there are, we’re seeing a swell of attendance across the country. People are like, oh, I’m kind of interested in this, but we got to move them from just, oh, this is something interesting to like, oh, I’m actually want to grow my relationship with Jesus.

Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I mean, and it’s it’s funny too, Rich, you probably have a better bird’s eye view of this than I do. But I feel like churches that have been faithfully growing for like the last 10 years, they’re not really doing a lot different now. Or even though there’s this big swell happening, what I do think is that some churches have sort of decided like, oh, clarity does matter.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, that’s true.

Andrew Hopper — And don’t try to be friends with the culture. We’re going to speak in and be prophetic. And, you know, even even to the you know Proverbs 25:26 says, you know, there’s there there’s no there’s no benefit in a muddied spring. You know, it’s like you got to be sort of you got to figure out if we’re going to be clear.

Andrew Hopper — So, I you know, for me, I think like and you’re right, we do reach most of the people that we reach that are in the camp that you’re talking about our college age. We reach a lot of people, though, ah that are, you know, they’re they’re coming back to the faith because they’re a southerner.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Andrew Hopper — You know, they they kind of they kind of were, you know, they they did have some church in their background. They’re coming back. Their kids are not only born, but they’re realizing they’re sinners and they don’t have answers. They’re trying to figure that out.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Andrew Hopper — They’re coming back to church.

Andrew Hopper — And, you know, I think the biggest thing that moves people from like interest into a decision point is just being very clear on this is what the gospel is. This is the life it compels you to. Are you going to be in or out?

Andrew Hopper — One of the things we say at Mercy Hill a lot is like, man, if you’re if you’re just intrigued, you know, if you’re interested, you’re not going to stay at Mercy Hill because we’re never going to let you, you’re going to get pushed every week. And it’s like, man, people are not really in or like that. I’m not going to do that. You know, they’re just like, no I’m not going to sit here and get like pushed every single week on something I don’t really… And the flip side is when people say, all right, you know what? Stake in the ground. I’m in.

Rich Birch — Yeah, we’re doing this, yep.

Andrew Hopper — I wanna look like this, I want to build my life on this. It’s like, well, now, you know, it’s it’s man, I’m hopefully, you know, putting tools in the belt every single week to live that life.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s good. I do think there was a time where people wandered into our churches where I don’t think that happens as much anymore. I think people, when they arrive, they come with questions, with live active questions that they’re trying to wrestle with, kind of regardless of where they’re they’re at in their journey.

Andrew Hopper — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And they’re what you to your point around, you know, there’s no benefit in a muddy stream. People aren’t looking for anything that sounds like, well, what do you think? Because the reason why they’re there is because they’re asking questions. And so, you know, they’re they’re looking for clarity, like I think you’re saying.

Rich Birch — Well one of the things I love about your church is there’s a high commitment to, you’re you’re you’re tearing down what I think is a false dichotomy. Sometimes I think when churches come to this idea of outreach or making a difference in their community, there’s this there can be this gap or false dichotomy between doing good in our communities and making disciples. Like we gave that up at some point. We were like, you can’t, you know, we can’t do both of those things for some reason. Why, why did we do that? Why did we, as churches say, we can’t both make a difference in our communities and also make disciples?

Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I think it’s, I actually have a lot of sympathy for the fundamentalist leaning. I know it sounds a little bit weird.

Rich Birch — No, that’s fine.

Andrew Hopper — Churches that led from the, you know, from the good do good in your city kind of thing. I don’t think they’re right, but I do have sympathy for that because I understand how quickly that sort of, you know, is so hijacked by liberal, by theological liberalism to where it’s finally man we’re digging wells and wherever but we’re not talking about who the true source of living water is. Like we don’t want to be offensive we just want to do good without speaking the whole you know you know live your life as a Christian only use words if necessary, whatever, you know. And and I so I understand why people kind of fled and have fled that.

Andrew Hopper — Like, you know, I’ve even had our church before when I when I talk about adoption or we we have a ministry, and a ministry called No More Spectators. We’re like moving people towards community ministry. And we had people kind of going on like, oh, my gosh, this seems like a sign of like churches start going this way and then they lose the gospel.

Andrew Hopper — And I’m like, well, the reason you’re kind of feeling like that is because a lot of churches have done that. You know, you’re not [inaudible] like that just out of nowhere. Now, of course, I think it’s a little bit immature and we’ve got to push through. The way we talk about it, Rich, is, man, we want to do good in our community as signs of the kingdom coming.

Andrew Hopper — They are not building the kingdom. You know, if we go repaint a house or house a homeless person, one day that person would parted with that house, whether they, you know, get messed up and leave or whether they do great and then would die one day, you know.

Andrew Hopper — Or, if we have, ah you know, if we go and, and you know, we’re going to, for example, we have ah ah a family in our church that they need a ramp built because, man, the the brother is struggling with MS and he’s, they’re they’re fighting it like Christians do. We’re going to go do that. You know, we’re going to go build that ramp. That ramp’s going to rot and die one, you know, rot and rot away one day. And, you know, whether it’s 100 years from now or whatever.

Andrew Hopper — Like it’s not literally the kingdom. But when the outside world sees us engage and, you know, our church will talk about this primarily when we think about community ministry, we think about it in terms of adoption, foster care and families count, which I can talk to you about. I think it’s bringing a sign of the kingdom that is to the community around us to say, hey, this is not the gospel. But it sure points to the gospel.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Andrew Hopper — You know, it’s a pretty good signpost of like, yeah, there’s a kingdom coming where kids aren’t separated from their parents, you know. And and so that’s kind of the way that we think about, it’s not, you know, it’s not the kingdom. It’s a sign of the kingdom that is coming.

Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s let’s dive in. So adoptions, foster care, families count. These are not small issues. Like you started with like putting a ramp on, painting somebody – those are like, okay, I can organize my head around that. And then we jump to what I think are obviously significant. How, it can be easy, I think, for church leaders it can be easy where, you know, we got a lot of fish to fry in our own backyard. When you see big problems like that, help us unpack that. Why do you as a lead pastor, why are you passionate about these issues? Why are these the things that you’ve chosen?

Andrew Hopper — I think it’s, man, I think it’s great. I mean if you can’t if you don’t mind I’ll go back and give you a little bit of context. I’m a context [inaudible]…

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Let’s do it. Yeah.

Andrew Hopper — …number one so I always want to frame it in where we’ve been. But the short answer to the question is I think that every church because it is made up of individual believers that have individual gift matrix, you know they’re they’re gifted the church is gifted in a unique way because the people which are the church are gifted in a unique way, right?

Andrew Hopper — And so to me, you know, slapping, you know, a top down every single church has to to manifest signs of the kingdom in X way, which, for for example, I’m not to pick on it, but like, you know, the whole diversity church kind of movement. I love you know, if that’s your brand, that’s awesome. That’s great. Go, go bring signs of the kingdom in that area. But you know what people do is they take their thing and then slap it on every single church. You know, this is the sign of the kingdom that you have to manifest.

Andrew Hopper — I don’t think that. It takes every kind of church to reach a city because there’s all you know, there’s every kind of people in the city. Right? For us, though, and I think for a lot of churches that that maybe are are made up a little bit like we are, I think there is a lot of meat on the bone for adoption, foster care, families count ministry. And I think churches could be greatly helped by latching on to maybe, you know, something in particular, maybe this, maybe this specifically. How we got there, Rich, was we had we had, you know, huge movement in our church in 2019. I was very convicted.

Andrew Hopper — Some of the exponential stuff was coming out, you know, mobilizing people outside the walls of the church. And I really was, man, I was just really affected by that. And I don’t want the dichotomy, you know, I don’t want, well, you your people serve in the church and not outside the church. It’s like, no, most people serve outside the church. If you watch them, they are serving inside the church as well. It’s it’s like a it’s like, man, you know, just just because serving inside the church is not the finish line, don’t demonize it because it is a starting place.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Andrew Hopper — So it’s like, I don’t like that kind of whole thing. But but it did affect me to say, OK, what are we doing to push to the outside? So we we we did a thing. You would have loved this, man. But it except for the fact that it didn’t really work that good. OK, it was awesome.

Andrew Hopper — It was, we still have the domain name – nomorespectators.com – I had the tagline: Jesus didn’t die to create spectators. He died to create servants, not spectators, workers, not watchers. We, man, you could go to nomorespectators.com and, you know, it was like, it was like a funnel for all of these community ministry opportunities in our city. So it was, you know, people from the housing, you know, authority type stuff would post things. And it was, it was all this kind of, it had a bunch of stuff in it.

Andrew Hopper — In the end of the day, great idea. It was a little too complex. Our people latched on to the foster care, pregnancy network, you know, ended up being families count, Guardian ad Litem and adoption. So our guy that was over all that at the time our sending director, which is hard for me to have a good idea that ends up dying hard, okay that’s just tough for me.

Rich Birch — You had a great sticky statement and everything. Come on.

Andrew Hopper — I’m the king of sunken cost bias. Okay. Like, I’m like, dude. And so finally around 2020, he came to me and he said, bro, I know this is hard for you. Cause it was like a two year initiative. He’s like, this is hard. He said, No More Spectators needs to just turn into Chosen. And it needs to be like, you had this idea for 30 different things. It just, this needs to be our niche, man. You know, we we don’t do a lot of these other things, but we do this really well.

Andrew Hopper — And it was hard for me. Ultimately, it was great wisdom by them, not me. And we started going down that road. And partly, I think it’s because, Rich, is heart is near to my heart. I have an adopted daughter. A lot of our staff have adopted kids. We just have a guy right now. Our associate director of first impressions at the Rich campus is in Texas right now, you know, bringing their daughter home.

Andrew Hopper — I mean, so it’s just, and so it’s sort of started to morph into, and the the the big thing I’ll say, and I, you know, I’ve been talking a lot here, but the big thing I’ll say is, if you think about the way I just ah described all that, it doesn’t start with the need in the community. It starts with the gift matrix of the church. The poor we will always have with us. Like there there is no there’s no scenario until Jesus comes back that there’s no kids that need to be adopted, you know.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Andrew Hopper — And it’s just the reality of it. And so there’s always going to be need in the community. It’s more about, okay, what are the Ephesians 2:10 works that your church, because the church is made up of people who are individually called, what are the you know what are those works that God has set out for your church?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Andrew Hopper — And, you know, so for us, we just felt like, dude, this is a a heartbeat thing. Our people got more, they get more fired up. The greatest thing I’ve ever been able to mobilize our people for prayer for is go to the abortion clinic and pray. I mean, a thousand people on their face in the pavement. It’s like, it just strikes a chord with our church and who we are. So we wanna run after that.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, I love that. And we’re going to dig out a bunch of this, but let’s think about it first from a perspective of somebody who’s maybe attended your church. They just started. They’re they’re relatively new, you know. The idea of something as weighty as adoption or foster care, that’s a big ask. And you know when you yeah how do I experience that as someone who’s just new? What are some ways that I could get plugged in? What does that look like? That, that, cause I, I’m hard, it’s hard to imagine that I go from zero to, to, you know, adoption, you know, how do I end up or flying to Texas to, you know, pick up a kid. That’s a lot. Help me understand. How are you, cause I know you guys are so good at moving people along from kind of where they are to where you’re hoping to – what’s that look like? What’s the kind of, how do you bring people along in this?

Andrew Hopper — Man, totally. I think you’re right. I think it’s a combination of big vision on one end and then baby steps on the other. But the big vision matters.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Andrew Hopper — Like we don’t want to be scared of the big vision. So, you know, for example, our weekender process, which I know you talked about some, you know, that weekender process, you know, people literally for years, we would give them a passport application in the weekender process. Because we’re like you’re at this church you’re probably going to be overseas at some point on a mission trip. And so to me it’s like people are like dude that probably scares the crap out of people. And it’s like well, I mean we want to make sure they know what they’re getting into, you know. We’re not telling them they got to do that tomorrow…

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — …but that is the, and then and then there’s all these baby steps, right? Like hey come to you know, every February we do Sent weekend. Come to the prayer night. Like that’s a baby step. That’s not you getting on a plane to go to Nepal. But you know hey we’re doing this missions offering at the end of the year, like maybe get you know. So there’s all these I would say that our the way we think about Chosen ministry, which again: adoption, foster care, families count, and rope holding, which is a big part of this discussion…

Rich Birch — Okay.

Andrew Hopper —…is that way. It’s big vision on the front end so we’re never going to tell somebody, hey you know, I know you could never do this. Like I’ll never…I think people can do it and they should. Or or you know more Christians than are should. At the same time we’re also not guilting anybody. Like so I’m I you know the the first thing I’ll tell people is like, hey, you know we start talking about adoption. I always say always say, hey, we have not lined up a bunch of little kids in the lobby for you to take one home today, okay. And then I’ll tell them, that’s next week.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Andrew Hopper — Okay, so yeah but and we we try hard to like put some levity in it. Man, we’re not everybody’s not going to do that. In fact, a minority, of a small minority is going to do it. But everyone can be involved and there are baby steps.

Andrew Hopper — So we try to highlight giving, man. Like if you someone adopts from Mercy Hill, we pay 25% of their adoption. Okay.

Rich Birch — Wow. Yep.

Andrew Hopper — If they’re a member and they’re in a community group, they get 25%. All right, well, you know, we’re going to connect that. Like, man, you you are never going to adopt. You feel like that’s, but it’s like, well, I give $100 a month to the church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — Well, hey, what? You know, you’re you are you are supporting.

Rich Birch — We’re making a difference.

Andrew Hopper — We do parents night out, you know, for all of our foster and adoptive parents. We do it quarterly. It’s like, hey, those are opportunities to come and serve, man. You can serve the meal you can do. We do rope holding, which I know we’ll probably talk about. But but the the idea of rope holding is just like, man, I’m not going to do this, but I can be in the corner for somebody. They’re in my community group. I want to be their first call if they need a babysitter or they need, you know, a gift card, or whatever they need.

Andrew Hopper — So I think, man, we try to do big vision. You know, we’re going we’re going to set a huge vision, you know, for 2030 for 2030. Actually, we just hit our vision for 2025, which is 200 adoptive or foster families. There’s a lot of ways people can be involved with it.

Rich Birch — So good. There’s, I think thing I would encourage friends who are listening in, you really should be following Mercy Hill, Andrew, because I do think you’re a very unique communicator where you, and you just described it. And I think to you, it’s just like, that’s just what you do. But this idea of like, you’re calling people to a high bar, but you’re not leveraging shame, guilt. you know, it’s, and I think so many times our language can kind of lean in that direction. Or we can, if we really are trying to push people towards something, or we can just undersell the vision. You know We can be like, oh, it’s not that it’s not that big of a deal. You know It’s not for everybody. So I would encourage people to listen in.

Rich Birch — Talk to me about rope holding. How is that, what’s that look like? Unpack what that looks like a little bit.

Andrew Hopper — Yeah, so rope so the the the rope-holding analogy, which a lot of your listeners probably gonna already know this, but you know William Carey, Andrew Fuller, William Carey, father of modern missions, he’s he he he makes the statement, “I’ll dangle at the end of the rope in the pit, if you’ll hold the rope,” talking to Fuller. And Fuller held the rope for him. Like, you know, Carey the mission field, Fuller’s raising money, preaching sermons, organizing mission boards. So that’s kind of the picture. Right.

Andrew Hopper — So we say, all right, not everybody is going to go down into the pit of foster care adoption, even even families count. I mean, these are these are massive spiritual warfare battlegrounds you know um which is one of the reasons why our church wants to be involved so much. I mean you if you want to talk about getting to the you can do all the rhetoric in the world, brother, you want to get to the very bottom of societal issues, you you be involved in somebody’s story that’s trying that’s trying to get their kids back from the foster care system. You’re trying to help them with that. I mean, every you could fatherlessness, poverty, drug abuse. I mean, everything you can think, you know.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — So this this is just spiritual war. So what we tell people is like, hey, man. If we got people that are mobilizing for for adoption and foster care, we better have people in their corne,r because the enemy is going to bring his war machine.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — And we see it all the time. I mean, you’re going to see, you know, a family steps in to adopt and you’re going to start seeing them, you know, there can be sickness. They can have marital problems. They can have financial things that come up. They can begin to believe lies, frustrations. I mean, There’s just so they can become, you know, their their heart can start getting hard toward the system. I mean, there’s so many things that come at them. And so what we say is we need people in their corner, right.

Andrew Hopper — Now, it’s funny because like the way our church has operated was at first we said, all right, we’re going to we’re going to do, you know, the the community group is going hold the rope for the people. And and that that was fine. The problem is when we really kicked off this ministry, so many people got involved that it became overwhelming to the group. So we said we got to start this…

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — …rope holding ministry. The rope holder ministry is good. It’s like, what does a rope holder do? They kind of do whatever the person needs them to do.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — So there are examples of the rope holding ministry going really well, where it’s like, hey, man, they’re they’re helping with ah child care with the other kids when they’re going to foster care appointments in court. And or, hey, we’re we’re helping you do some things around the house whenever you’re overseas doing your adoption, which is going to put you three weeks in country. You know, there are some good examples like that.

Andrew Hopper — But the other thing that we’ve learned is, you know, foster care and adoption families that are that are walking through this, they’re going through a very trying time. And to just pair them with somebody they don’t know and say, hey, look, here’s your supporter, it can be a little bit like, oh, that’s awesome, and then they never reach out to them.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — They never reach out – the rope holder’s ready.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — But it’s just like, dude, I don’t I don’t know you. And this is a hard time.

Rich Birch — Who are you? Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hopper — And so what we’re trying to figure out now as we reboot that rope holder idea is, you know, how how do you kind of integrate relationships they’ve already had? Almost like, hey, do you have this massive pool of people called rope holders? Or when an adoptive family comes up, you say to them, hey, who can we shoulder tap, rope holder for you.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Andrew Hopper — And then we’ll train them.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool. Yeah.

Andrew Hopper — But not have this pool, but say for you, we’ll put them in. So that’s kind of what we’re, so as part of our reboot for 2030, you know, that’s sort of what’s in our mind right now.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Andrew Hopper — We have a whole playbook for the way we’ve done it, which anybody, you know, if anybody wants any of those things, they can go to AndrewPHopper.com/chosen. And I can send you any of that stuff we have, but on the rope holder side, you know, just full transparency, we’re still, you know, kind of, of you know, and I’m sure it’ll always be that way that we make an improvement.

Rich Birch — Yeah, always trying to make it better. Yeah. And I want to, yeah, at some point in this journey, you decided, hey, we’ve got to put this vision and framework into writing, like we and you actually ended up writing a book, and friends who are listening in, I want to encourage you to pick up a copy of this book. Listen, we’re almost half an hour in. I know you’re interested in this. This is the kind of thing you, Andrew’s a trusted leader. He’s, I’ve had a chance to take a peek at the book. This will be super helpful for you. But, but that’s a lot of effort to put this together into a book. What pushed you from just leading this ministry to ultimately saying, hey, I want to capture this into a resource that could help other people?

Andrew Hopper — Well, you know, Rich, I never really saw myself as like a writer, just like a practitioner, man. Let’s just keep keep working on the thing and going.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — And truthfully, I got approached. Hey, would you have any interest in writing? You know, New Growth Press is the one that’s editing this book and putting it out. And it was funny, though, because the second I was asked, I was like, man, I know what we should do [inaudible] that should be what we should do. It’s it’s our it’s it’s my story’s family story with our special needs child that we’ve adopted. It’s our church’s journey. But more important than either of those two things, it’s a grounding in the gospel-centered motivation. Because I think that is what is so important. We don’t do guilt motivation. And you know, cute kids and sad, cute kids and and sad stories are good reasons, but they you need a great reason, because it’s hard.

Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.

Andrew Hopper — You know, and the great reason is of course, adopted people adopt people. And so we delve way into the helplessness of our spiritual condition, how God adopted us and then how, you know, that provides a deep motivation for us to go and do the same for others.

Rich Birch — Can you unpack that a little bit more? Because I think this is, ah to me, a core part of the book that I think is really helpful. Even if you’re maybe listening in, you’re thinking, okay, I’m not sure adoption or foster care is necessarily the thing, but you unpack this idea of gospel rather than guilt. And can you talk us through, you know, how, yeah, just talk us through that part, that concept a bit more. Just double click on that a little bit.

Andrew Hopper — Yeah. So, you know, when we think about behaviors that flow from the Christian life, there’s really only two ways to think about it, right? Like one of them is we try to do things in order that God would approve of us, you know, that he would, you know, he would, ah he would, he would let us in his family, you know, those those types of things. And we, you know, this is for a lot of Baptistic world, which I am, this was kind of like, wow, this is really revolutionary, but that was 20 years ago – Keller and all that. You know, we just started understanding what more of a gospel center motivation.

Andrew Hopper — Of course, the other way to think about Christian behaviors is you are part of the family because of what Christ has done for you. And the family has a culture. The family works a certain way. There’s fruit that will pop out in your life, not so that you can gain entrance into the vine. That’s not how it works. Like, ah you know, you don’t you don’t produce fruit to get in the vine. You produce fruit because you’re in the vine.

Andrew Hopper — And so, you know, when we think about like like Titus 2, for example, we think about how the grace of God appears to all men, teaching us not just salvation, but teaching us to obey his commands. So there’s something about salvation that and is inherent to the gospel-centered motivation of of of going out, living the Christian life. You know, it’s it’s kind of the John Bunyan idea when they said, man, if you, you know, if you keep preaching this gospel message, people are going to do whatever they want to do. And he said, no, if I keep preaching this gospel message, people are going to do whatever God wants them to do.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — You know, and so I think what we’ve done in this book is just say, hey, that that is true universally in our Christian life. Like if I’m not tithing and I’m stingy, I can do motivation in two ways. Number one, how dare you, you piece of trash that you never, you know why would you never give? Look what God, you know, blah blah blah, blah, blah, guilt, guilt, shame, shame. Right.

Andrew Hopper — Of course, the other way to say is like, man, what kind of riches has God given you in the gospel? And what kind of inheritance do you now have as a son of the king? It’s like, all right, that’s powerful, you know, and it will it will take us places that guilt never can. Guilt will work for a while. You can put fire under somebody and it’ll move them. But if you put it in them, they’ll run through a wall, you know.

Rich Birch — So true.

Andrew Hopper — And so it’s like it’s like, hey, OK, so you could do it with all these different things. We’ve tried to take this book and do that with adoption to say, all right.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — We know James 1:27, we need to care for the fatherless and the orphan. We understand. I mean, dude, there ain’t, when you talk about metaphors, there’s two big ones, marriage and adoption, you know? And so if you want to do adoption well, we can do it from two motivations. One motivation is look how many kids need. That’s all and that’s all true. That moves my heart. You know, look, can you believe this story of this kid? And that’s fine.

Andrew Hopper — Of course, you could do guilt, too. Like, how dare you, you know, have this nice, happy family and not go adopt a little poor orphan kid. You know, you could do guilt. All those things will be fine. They’ll put fire under you a little bit. But if you want to put the fire in someone that is going to carry them through the long haul of all this stuff, I think it’s better to start with: All right. There’s kids that need to be chosen. Were you chosen?

Andrew Hopper — You know, so like one of the you know, one I’ll give you an example. We know of a family here in the tribe. They’ve got an awesome son that is 20-something years old, kids got Down syndrome, and they adopted him from Ecuador. And his story was one day a carpenter was working on this building and he heard cries coming out of a dump, like a trash heap. This child had just been born and been left you know with his deformities had just been left for the dumpster.

Andrew Hopper — And they brought him to the orphanage. And next thing you know, you know about three or four years later, he got adopted by this family that we know. And that family’s father, he said, Eddie’s story is my story. I was pulled from a trash heap by a carpenter. And if you it’s like that is powerful.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Andrew Hopper — You know, when you start thinking about, man, in my sin, I was one who had no part and parcel in the kingdom of God. I was headlong in rebellion. I had rejected. I was not a son. And God lavished his love upon me, that I would be called his child. And if if that has happened to me spiritually, how could I not want to do that? Or at least help those. you know I’m not saying that’s a call for everybody, but be involved in others that are doing that as well.

Andrew Hopper — And so that’s what we say. Adopted people, adopt people, chosen people, choose people. And hey, I didn’t answer your last question.

Rich Birch — That’s fine.

Andrew Hopper — Okay. Your last question was, why did we write the book? Very simply, I think more people just need to think about what I just said. You know, and I think churches do. And I think that if, you know, a lot of churches have adoption-minded people and a little bit of of fuel in that fire might create some really cool ministry in that church. And this book lays really well for being like, man, make it a small group resource for eight weeks. You know, it’s got questions at the end of each chapter.

Andrew Hopper — Like my my prayer is that this book would catalyze tens of thousands of Christian adoptions.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Andrew Hopper — And that’s why we wrote the book.

Rich Birch — Yeah. It’s and I thought the same thing as I was looking through it, that this would be a great resource for a small group, a great resource as a staff training thing. Because again, I think there’s two things happening on two levels. From my perspective, there’s what you’re actually talking about – adoption, but then there’s how you talk about it. And I think even both of those, I think could be interesting as a as a staff team to kind of unpack and think about. How do we ensure that what we’re doing is so gospel-infused. That’s part of why i love you as a communicator. I think you do such a good job on that. It’s just fantastic. So I would strongly encourage people to pick it up.

Rich Birch — Help me understand the connection. So Mercy Hill is known for, or at least from my perspective, known as a sending church. You know, the thing, one of the and I’ve told again, I told you this before, you’re the first church leader I’ve ever bumped into that has connected new here guests to number of missionaries sent. This like idea of like this funnel of how do we move people all the way along to that? I think that’s incredible. How does that kind of sending culture and adoption, how does that fit together? How does that help kind of fuel the flywheel of what’s happening at Mercy Hill?

Andrew Hopper — Well, you you helped me think about this when you came and did our one day for our for our Breaking Barriers group, you know, for the pastoral trainings that we do. Because in your church growth book, you talk about how, ah you know, community ministry is used as an evangelism tool. I’m not, I’m probably butchering the way you talk about it.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Oh, that’s good. Yep. That’s great.

Andrew Hopper — That was like a big light bulb for me because because we we definitely do that, but we have not leveraged the communications of that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — And so, um you know, for us now, what we’re trying to really think about is how does our adoption of foster care ministry and rope holding and families count ministry, how does that create open? We call them open doors, right?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Andrew Hopper — Like, how does it create open doors, questions in the community, where people come in? And we’ve seen it. You know, so like when we’re talking about the sending culture, that pipeline starts when new people get interested in faith, they get interested in church.

Andrew Hopper — And, you know, like, for example, we we had a guy, we just did a historic video. Man, he’s saved, baptized, serving now, ah or, you know, family, young family, prototypical Mercy Hill guy, like, man, just you know blue collar heart, white collar job, just that. I mean, just everything we talk about. Right. He’s our he’s kind of our guy. And the way he got connected was his boss had signed up to be a rope holder. And it just blew his mind. Like, why would a guy take limited time and go help these families? I mean, he of course, he thought it was a good thing. But it really intrigued them.

Andrew Hopper — And so we’ve tried to we’re trying to leverage more of the communication side. It’s tricky. You don’t want to be like, hey, look at us you know in the community. At the same time, I’m like, man, this year, you know when we’re going to do a pretty significant upgrade to some of the there our foster care system has, there’s a house that has a backyard and the backyard is where families come to play with kids, play with their kids they’re trying to get back from the foster care.

Rich Birch — Right. Yep.

Andrew Hopper — And we’ve said like, you know what, man, if these parents are putting in, that needs to be like the best, the best backyard, and you know?

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, absolutely. 100%.

Andrew Hopper — And so, you know, we’re, we’re going to do a significant investment in some, you know, whatever…

Rich Birch — Play structures and yeah.

Andrew Hopper — …like a, you know, whatever, like a pergola type thing. They’re going put a shed out there. All going to connect it, pavers, all that stuff is what we want to do. And, you know, we’re, we’re looking at that and I’m going like, yeah, I mean, I get it. Like you don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, but at the same time, that’s not for us. That’s for people that are interested to say like, why would a church do that? You know, like why do they care so much?

Andrew Hopper — And it’s because, Hey, sign of the kingdom. We want to build families through adoption. We want to restore families through foster care and families count. This is part of that. So we’ve tried to we’ve tried to use it as a way. And I would really encourage church leaders to think about that. Like, hey, is your community ministry actually an evangelism strategy?

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Love that. And yeah, I would encourage you continue to encourage you to think through those things because I do think that there’s, we’ve seen that there’s huge opportunity for folks who don’t normally attend church. They’re interested the way I’ve said in other contexts is they see it as a good thing. We see it as a God thing. We’re not going to fight them over the semantics of it at the front end. Because like you say it’s it’s the kingdom puncturing through that grabs their attention and you’re like oh what what you know what’s going on there? It’s a first step – how do we encourage those people?

Rich Birch — Like on that backyard project, I no doubt if you’re rallying a bunch of guys to go work there, I know that there are guys in your church who have friends who they could invite who don’t attend church who maybe would never walk in your church who’d say, hey, will you come and work for a Saturday for a couple hours and swing a hammer and help us do this thing? Let me explain what this is about.They absolutely would show up, right? 100% they’d show up and and they’ll get intrigued by that. And they’ll be like, oh, what’s going on there? That’s that’s fantastic.

Rich Birch — Well, friends, unabashedly, I want you to pick up copies of, not just a copy, copies of this book. So where do we want to send people to pick up copies, that sort of thing?

Andrew Hopper — Yeah, man, they can just go to andrewphopper.com/chosen.

Rich Birch — Perfect. Yep.

Andrew Hopper — The book’s out so they can pick up a copy. I mean, it’s also just like on Amazon or whatever, but that link will take you straight to New Growth Press.

Rich Birch — Right.

Andrew Hopper — So, yeah, man, would love it. Would love to hear from anybody who’s using it well in a church context um to catalyze Christian adoption.

Rich Birch — Love it. Anything else you want to share just as we close and how can people track, go to the website, other places we want to send them as we close up today.

Andrew Hopper — Also on Instagram, we have a lot of stuff on Instagram, andrewphopper on Instagram. Yeah, the last thing I would say as a closing thought, Rich, is you know, the Christian adoption boom has sort of happened 20 years ago. People started talking about this a lot more. And now you can feel in some of the podcast world and all that, there’s a bit of a backlash, not not to don’t do it, but also like, hey, no one told us how hard this was going to be.

Andrew Hopper — You’re dealing with traumatic situations, kids that have been brought, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s crazy. One thing I try to do in this book is I try to say, Hey, that’s not a good reason to take our ball and go home, you know.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Andrew Hopper — Instead we just need to try to shoot as straight as we can. And I do that in this book, man. It is hard. It’s you’re on the front lines of spiritual war. I mean, it’s almost like, dude, the, the, the greatest transfer of faith from one generation to another happens in the home. We love it when adults get saved. I get that. But let’s be honest. Statistically, where does it normally happen? Right.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Kids.

Andrew Hopper — And so if you got a home that’s broken apart, that Christians are trying to put back together, what did we think Satan was going to do? You know, and so instead of taking our ball and going home, let’s just call it what it is, and then ask the Lord to steel our spine…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Andrew Hopper — …and to move forward with the mission. So, yeah, man, I’d love for people to pick it up. And I appreciate the time to talk about it today.

Rich Birch — Andrew, thanks so much. Appreciate you. Just want to honor you for the work you do. You’re a great leader. And I love how God’s using you and your church to make a difference. Thanks for being on the show today.

Andrew Hopper — Thanks, brother.

 

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Tim MacLeod, a former nurse who escaped the financial treadmill by flipping couches—and now teaches others how to do the same.

Are you a church leader feeling the financial squeeze? Looking for a side hustle that doesn’t require debt, special skills, or hours you don’t have? Tim’s story offers a practical roadmap—and encouragement—for anyone needing to close that income gap.

To learn more or access Tim’s free scripts, visit him on Instagram @thefulltimeflipper or explore his full course at tim-macleod.com.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’re definitely having a very un-unSeminary episode today. You know recently I heard some statistics that I was like, man, we gotta do something about this. According to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics—you’re like, it’s a little early in the year for the Bureau of Labor and Statistics—but there’s a 13% gap between what religious workers—people who are clergy actually, is the title—and the average income in the country makes – a 13% gap. In fact, it even gets worse when you look at people, there’s a category called “religious workers, other”, which these would be like not the senior pastor types. This is like everybody else that works in a church. There’s a 40% gap between those people and the the average salary in the country.

Rich Birch — And so why am I bringing this up? Because I know that there are people that are listening in today that are feeling that gap. Here we are in January and they’re feeling the pressure of that. And I want to help you with that. And so I’ve got a friend, like a friend from real life, friends. This is like we’re in the same small group. We know each other, incredible leader, and I want to expose you to him. But more importantly, I think he can help you with that gap.

Rich Birch — It’s my friend, Tim MacLeod. Tim was a nurse with the dreams of fatherhood and home ownership, but after a few years was faced with reality and no time, no amount of overtime was really going to fill the gap that he needed to make things work. And after being stuck on that kind of financial treadmill, he found a way out. He found the niche of, wait for it, friends, flipping couches. What? Flipping couches and was able to quit his nursing job and now does this full time. And I’ve asked him to come on. Uh, because I think what he did at the beginning, even part-time, I think could help some of us today that are, that are listening in. Tim, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Tim MacLeod — Thanks so much for having me, man. I’m excited.

Rich Birch — This is going to be a good conversation. Kind of fill in the story. Tell us a little bit, uh, tell us about your background, and how did you get in? How did you go from nursing to flipping couches?

Tim MacLeod — So I wanted to be obedient and I got married maybe a little bit too young at 21. My wife was still in teacher’s college. And so very, very quickly I was thrown into adulthood of two cars, rents and all the things that come with that.

Tim MacLeod — And nursing was good. I was a registered practical nurse, so not a university educated RN making bank, but doing okay with a college diploma. And I got the comfy gig at a long-term care home because I preferred eight-hour shifts and not the, I didn’t want nights.

Rich Birch — Midnight and all that.

Tim MacLeod — I just wanted, yeah, exactly.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim MacLeod — I wanted the free parking and the the reliable six to two shifts. That was just the lifestyle that I liked. And the only way that I could stay afloat financially was with doubles. I had to do my six to two and then at least once a week, usually twice, if I wanted to have any money to play with, um I would work the two to ten.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Tim MacLeod — And that was cool while my wife was in college or while she was finishing up teacher’s college, that was fine. And then, we had a newborn baby and that was fine. Because anytime that I would have to do those doubles, she’d go to sleep, go for a sleepover at her parents’ place. And, uh, and I would just drudge up the shifts.

Tim MacLeod — And, but then when we were pregnant with number two, I knew that there was difficulties coming. And the road ahead did not look very good. And so I needed something different and all my options for replacing the income suck. Like I could go back to school and upgrade to RN, but I scraped through the first time. So that was nuts.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — I didn’t have much hope in myself in that avenue. And I could go, I could relocate, I could move or I could commute about an hour and 20 away to the mental health hospital and make like danger pay in like an asylum, basically with my current qualifications.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — And everything just looked terrible. I hated all of that. And all I needed was something better than overtime. I just needed to replace that portion of the income. And I needed something better in my evenings that hopefully I could do with my wife or from home. And so I was looking at side hustles.

Tim MacLeod — And I had a little bit of success flipping phones and iPads because that’s all that I really understood…

Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Tim MacLeod — …all I understood at the time. And I live about an hour north of where my in-laws live, which is a pretty dense population. I’m in the sticks and the supply was really light there. So I could reliably go for a free meal at my in-laws place, pick up an iPhone or three and for like 300 bucks and then bring them home and sell them for 450 bucks. And so that took that took the pressure off and that was like grocery money.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — And it was really consistent, really reliable. And and it was fun too. I really liked it. I liked the negotiations. I liked, I liked not trading time.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — Like I liked making making a profit instead of a wage. And that I was hooked on that, but there was competition. Like I wasn’t that clever doing that.

Tim MacLeod — There was there was kids that were closer to the inventory ripping around in little Hyundai Elantras and uh i remember meeting this this Indian kid named Lucky, at least his Canadian name was Lucky, and he was beating me to all the goods. And and I met him one time to buy a phone for myself and I actually got to meet him and ask him some questions and he was making four grand a month flipping phones.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Tim MacLeod — And I thought that is so sick, and it’s just a pure cash hustle. And he was making more doing that than whatever his office or IT job was at the time. And I was super inspired by that, but I didn’t want to compete with him. So that kind of that kind of festered with me a little bit.

Tim MacLeod — And um I just got an awesome idea. Well, was gifted to me by the Holy Spirit, I think, based on how fast and how fierce it came, that I need to get skills and tools to sell in a different category, something with a higher barrier to entry. And I wanted something where I didn’t have to compete with the Honda Civics and the Hyundai Elantra’s that were closer to the action.

Rich Birch — With Lucky. Yes.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah, exactly. He was smoking me. And and it also, it was a little bit of that and then also a little bit of me coveting. I wanted to get like, um I wanted an excuse to buy a Ford Ranger. I wanted a truck at the time.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Tim MacLeod — And so this combination, this combination of like wants and needs at the time, had me pitching an idea to my brother, Ross. I’m just like, Hey, what do you think about instead of phones and iPads? What if I got a truck and I started doing like washers and dryers or appliances or something like that? And he said, that’s a cool idea.

Tim MacLeod — You’re good at the phones and iPads thing. And I definitely like, you’re good at the negotiations, all that. But don’t start eight grand in debt. That’s so stupid. Why don’t you just borrow my trailer and just try it? And I said, well, I don’t have a, I don’t have a hitch on my car. He said, get a hitch on your car, buddy. Okay. So, put that on the Visa, did not have the money for it.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Tim MacLeod — Put that on the Visa, put a two inch two inch hitch and four prong wiring on Mazda 5 like the little four cylinder, little mini minivan.

Rich Birch — Oh, I wish I would have saw this at that. I wish I would have s seen this at this phase. Cause that, that, that would have been amazing to see him getting pulled around.

Tim MacLeod — It was it was pretty cute and it was a big trailer too 12 by 6 aluminum being pulled by this little aaaaahhh. And it was stick shift and and…

Rich Birch — Nice.

Tim MacLeod — …and the first day I got the trailer, the only thing I could find, because I was just itching to use it, was a free couch. And it was one of those beige microfiber, like gets dirty if you look at it wrong.

Rich Birch — All right. Yes.

Tim MacLeod — Like they hold on to every water stain.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Tim MacLeod — And it was that and it was free and it needed a little bit of TLC. And I went and I got it for free. Brought it home and with a damp cloth, scrubbed out all the little marks and had it looking good. Took a picture of it, listed it with an offer of delivery and it sold the next day for 280 bucks.

Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing.

Tim MacLeod — It was awesome. Because a nursing shift net was like 180.

Rich Birch — Wow, OK.

Tim MacLeod — I think I was, I think I was 28 bucks an hour for an eight hour shift after taxes. Yeah. Probably like 180 hit the account.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Tim MacLeod — And so 280 for that. And it was one of those trips of free meal at, at the in-laws and then a free couch and then bring it home and then solve somebody’s problem of, I just got an apartment. I don’t have a car or my car’s too small and I need a couch.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Tim MacLeod — And their option was, rent a U-Haul or go to Leon’s and finance something that comes delivered. Both are not very good options for most people. And then lo and behold was this guy who said, I got a couch, I can bring it by. And it was just the easiest yes for them. It was a win for everybody.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — The person who needed the couch picked up, didn’t care about the money. They needed reliable pickup more than they needed cost recovery of the item because they had a deadline. I needed a way to make some cash and the person on the receiving end needed a couch that was affordable that came delivered. So it was just a win-win-win for everybody. I was like, okay, forget about appliances. Couches – I love this. And it was easy, it was it was easy enough to lift by myself.

Rich Birch — Did you ever do appliances? Did you ever do appliances in there?

Tim MacLeod — Yeah. I did a washer and dryer and ate a loss on that because it needed repair and I didn’t…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Tim MacLeod — …I paid for someone to assess and they were like, yeah, this thing’s broken. Was like, sweet. Okay. So a hundred bucks to you for, for, to tell me that it’s hopeless, and then pay for junk removal too.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Tim MacLeod — Like it was just such a loss. But couches, I could reliably sit on it and be like, well, that’s not broken. And I can handle that little stain or I can, my wife could stitch that up.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Tim MacLeod — And, uh, it was just so safe. And I loved it. If, if I were handier, I’m sure I could, flip snowblowers or lawnmowers or cars or something like that, but I’m not handy. I’m just, I have the ability to relocate stuff.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — And so couches were just so perfect where I could just accurately be like, that’s 300 bucks to me.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — And they only want 60 for it. Perfect. Let’s do that.

Rich Birch — So and let’s double click on that. A part of what, so friends, like with the reason why, I think you’ve seen why I’ve got Tim on the the line today. I want to inspire you to think like, hey, you you could in part-time make a little extra a month. And I’m going to get to that with Tim. I’m going We’re going hammer down on, okay, what exactly would be some of the first steps that you take? But let’s unpack a little bit more. You’ve talked about once this insight, which I think is just a stellar insight that’s obviously at the core of your business. It’s this whole timing thing. Like people, you know they think a couch is worth certain certain amount, but they’re moving on X date, and the value of that couch goes down. But then it’s literally the reverse. Someone on the other side, they have an empty living room and they’re like, I need something here.

Rich Birch — Unpack that a little more, kind of double click on… that value exchange and how you’re in the middle of that. What’s it talk us through what that looks like.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah, there’s there’s a gap. There’s a gap in the marketplace. On the one end, we’ve got people who need it picked up and their options are hope that someone will pay the price that they want. And then if they hit a deadline, then their option is junk removal or put it to the curb. And so there’s a gap to fill there.

Tim MacLeod — And then on the other side, there’s a gap of people who need a couch dropped off but can’t do it themselves. Like how many, what’s the population of people that own a truck that can actually do it is probably less than 10%. Most people have cars and hatchbacks and SUVs and stuff like that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — And then there’s also the how many people can lift a couch. I would say easily less than half the population. And so there’s just this huge gap that can be filled. And so by just committing to being the dude, you can help a lot of people solve a lot of problems. And there’s a little slice in it for you too.

Rich Birch — So one of the things I’ve heard you say is that you have found this process of buying couches and then, you know, sitting on them for a while, maybe cleaning them a little bit and then turning around selling them is really flexible. Talk us through that. You know, it feels like you’re, you know, you’re, you have some time control. Talk us through what that looks like for you in your current world.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah, the time freedom is crazy. And that was the appeal in the beginning was [inaudible] I didn’t want to be strapped to a location, a building to to make money. I had to be away from my wife and kids. But when it, couches just took off so fast that the first time I flipped a couch, I immediately called the scheduling office and reneged on all of my overtime. I said cancel all my two shifts.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Tim MacLeod — I’m done. I’m I’m I’m just doing my 10 shifts. And, and then it didn’t take too long before i wanted to quit so fast, man. I wanted to be out of there. My, my my passion for the, like, I was so replaceable. Like as soon as if if I’m gone, someone’s going to fill the shift.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Tim MacLeod — Like, ah but there was a, there was a huge, there was a need that, and it was fun for me too. It was a game. I forget the question.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I was just talking about the time flexibility, like how you feel like it’s, you know, you have a fair amount of time freedom. Part of what I’m trying to get to is pastors are busy people. Church workers are busy people. Is this even the kind of thing that they could fit into, you know, an existing as like a side hustle kind of thing?

Tim MacLeod — Yes. Yeah. The time freedom is crazy. And so on the buying side, I’m just letting people know when I’m available. And sometimes I’ll tie it up with ah with a $50 deposit so that they can market it sold with confidence and they know that I’m not going to ghost on them. And that I have the peace of mind of nice, that’s mine for when I need it. And I’ll squeeze them for a deadline so that I make sure that I’m providing the service of reliable pickup in a manner that works for them.

Tim MacLeod — But yeah, I’m just stacking pickups when it’s convenient for me. And in this current season, it’s during school hours.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — So I’ll drop the kids off at school and then rip south and grab some stuff. But in that season, it was I’m available in the evening. And so I would come home from school, I’m sorry, work from my nursing job. And my wife would pack up, we pack up a little cooler bag of like a road picnic of dinner.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — We had a one-year-old baby at the time and, uh, oh, that summer there was a lot of 50% off pizzas. Pizza Hut had a, the, the apps, we had all, all the apps, lots of road dinners.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Tim MacLeod — And Costco was clutch too.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Tim MacLeod — But, um, yeah, just when I had an availability, I would acquire inventory and then they’d sell when they sell. And and again, full flexibility of, okay, I’m available at this time. I can squeeze in a delivery or someone could come pick it up. But yeah, the the time freedom is crazy and it’s sweet to to to just dabble in profits instead of relying on a wage.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah, time freedom is awesome.

Rich Birch — Well, you talked about the fact that your you know your brother was telling you you’re good at negotiations. I know there are people that are listening in today that are feeling like, oh, there’s no way that I would be good at negotiations. Obviously, you’ve got to buy the thing for considerably lower than what you’re selling it for. Talk us through even just a couple, help us get over that hurdle in our brains. Man, I just don’t know that I could do that.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah. So the first thing is I’m scrolling a lot. And not not frequently. I’m not glued to my phone. But when I do it, I lock in. Like today was the shopping session and it was headphones in with some instrumental music, just kind of vibing. And I’m probably scrolling, looking at probably 400, 500 couches.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Tim MacLeod — And I’ll message probably 20 to 30 of them. Because a lot of them are crap. A lot of them are actually new. There’s no opportunity with new coaches. like There’s lots of warehouse stuff that’s still on first Facebook Marketplace and stuff like that. But what I’m looking for is very specific. I’m looking for private sales from real people. You got to be able to spot the scammers and weed them out.

Tim MacLeod — And I’m looking for couches that I would want in my lockers. I’m not worried about the price whatsoever. Because the price is super subjective and it’s just kind of like what they’re hoping for. It’s not actually what they’re necessarily going to get. So the price is irrelevant. I’m just looking at pictures and I’m compiling lists of couches that I would want. And I’m starting conversations so that it’s kind of like I’m, I’m, it’s it’s like I’m offering my service. I’m starting the conversation to see why they’re selling it, if there’s a deadline, and if they would be someone who would be receptive to my service. And it’s kind of like they’re paying me for my reliable pickup service with a smoking and deal on a couch.

Tim MacLeod — And so I have to get them there. And it’s not just, I can’t just go around lowballing everybody because you burn the bridge and you hurt feelings.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — So I’m starting conversations and I’m filling in the gaps on the item. So I’ll read the description and see what’s missing. Like, did they specify that there’s pets in the house? I want to know, is there pets? Are there smokers in the house? Does it need any repairs? Does it need any stain removal or restoration if it’s leather? And I’m filling in all the gaps. So I have a complete picture of what it is that I’m actually buying. And that’s all kind of like a trauma response from my many, many drives of shame of I didn’t ask the right questions.

Tim MacLeod — And so it’s it’s definitely preventing the drive of shame. And I’m just running through these scripts that I have. And it would sound like it’s a lot of typing, but I’ve actually made keyboard shortcuts for all of it. So my opening question is, I’ll never say, hi, is this still available? Because everybody hates being asked, hi, is this still available? On Facebook Marketplace, right? Because they’ve made it ah they’ve made it a button…

Rich Birch — Yes. That’s why it’s up.

Tim MacLeod — …where it’s just like, hi, is this still available? But that upsets people, which is fair, because it’s annoying. But at the same time, most people don’t have empathy for the fact that, how else are they going to start the conversation? Why would you ask questions if you’ve got someone lined up for it? So I’ll ask the exact same question, but in a way that annoys nobody. And I’ll say, is anyone scheduled to pick this up? It’s the same question, but upsets nobody.

Rich Birch — Same question, just in a different way.

Tim MacLeod — So that’s, that’s my first shortcut is, good morning, good good afternoon, good evening, whatever. And then any, and so on my keyboard, any with two wise expands into anyone’s schedule to pick this up. And then the next one is, does it need any repairs or stain removal? That’s if it’s fabric. And that’s does D or D O E S S and then D O E s S S S or with three S’s is, does it need any repairs or restoration? That’s if it’s leather. And so it’s just these quick little, my thumbs are just, and just…

Rich Birch — So cool.

Tim MacLeod — …I’m, I’m drafting up this quick little paragraph that fills in all the gaps, firing that over. And then, And then they’ll reply and fill in the gaps. And then I park it. I pause the conversation by saying, okay, awesome. Thanks so much. Just starting to have a peek at options, might get back to you.

Tim MacLeod — And that one line separates me from everybody on Facebook. Because most people ask a question and then they just leave it on read. They got that little picture, that little tiny profile picture of yourself that says that, hey, he read it, but he’s gone and it’s crickets.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Tim MacLeod — And it’s a very, very infuriating experience. And that’s kind of like part of my service is that I am very, very different on Facebook Marketplace. Like an experience selling to me is better than anybody…

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — …because of how I talk. Like I’ll receive offers every day from people that don’t use words. They just send a number.

Rich Birch — Just money.

Tim MacLeod — Like I’ve got a couch listed for 1150 and someone just sends 700 – no dollar sign, no question mark, no good morning, nothing like that. And, and that’s a fair offer. Like he’s…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Tim MacLeod — …I paid, I paid a fifth of that, like 700 is a fair offer, but I automatically hate this guy. I don’t, I don’t hate, I don’t hate him.

Rich Birch — Yes. No, I get what you mean.

Tim MacLeod — But, but it’s immediately just like, dude!

Rich Birch — Yes.

Tim MacLeod — You like say, say hi, say please.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Tim MacLeod — Even a, even a question mark would be, you know, so that’s the kind of people that I’m dealing with. And I’ve got thick skin and I always operate on the mindset of, I do want to sell this guy and I, and I do want to see him later today. So I’m not going to match his energy.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — I’m never, I’m never a thermometer. I’m always a thermostat. I always set, set the temperature in the room, you know?

Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Yep.

Tim MacLeod — And so that’s ah that’s a big factor. But yeah, running through those scripts and and just getting people to their best price. And so after pausing it of, thanks so much, just starting to have a peek at options, I’ll reconnect with them.

Tim MacLeod — Now, this is this is if their price is optimistic and it’s not a price that I’m willing to pay. I’ll slow play it a little bit by pausing the conversation. And then I’ll come back and then I’ll hit them with my my secret weapon is my polite lowball offer. And the number they might hate the number, but it comes gift wrapped in this like apologetic, like, Hey, I’m…

Rich Birch — Oh, you got to tell me more that you’re, you’re setting that up. Well, you’re like, what is the polite low ball offer?

Tim MacLeod — For me, I’m shopping in Toronto, which is like 90 minutes, two hours away.

Tim MacLeod — And so my apologetic offer is: It’s so far, is there any chance you’d consider this much, any chance you’d consider for an out of towner? And then I just plug in the number. And, and it’s always received well. And even if it’s even if it’s even if they’re firm, that’s fine. Now I know.

Rich Birch — Right. It’s data.

Tim MacLeod — But and ah honestly, if somebody accepts my offer, then I didn’t offer low enough. Like I’m i’m really pushing the limit.

Rich Birch — Oh, interesting.

Tim MacLeod — I’m flirting with the line between an optimistic offer and a rude offer, but because I’m so nice about it. And it’s, it’s kind of like, it’s my secret weapon to get them to their best price. Because the the worst way to get someone to their best price is what’s your best price?

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — Like whenever someone asks me that, it’s again, it’s just like, that’s annoying. I don’t like you.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Right, right, right, right, right.

Tim MacLeod — But to politely lowball and then their counter is their best price. So I just want to squeeze them for their counter offer. And now I know what their best price is.

Rich Birch — Right. Okay. That’s cool. There’s a lot there. And I know you’re want to stay tuned because Tim’s got an offer of some free help that he wants to give you that we’re going to, we’re going to get to here in a minute. So I know some of you were like, go back and ask questions on that. But I know that the free offer to help is going to help with some, some of those things.

Rich Birch — What about negotiation on the other side? So I get a sense of what you’re talking about to try to get them, you know, there’s a time thing there and we’re going to wait and all that. But now on the other end, you’re trying to obviously maximize or get the biggest money for that couch you just bought, bought. What are some things we should be thinking about on that? How are you offering the couches in a way that, you know, captures people’s imagination and says like, oh, okay, that’s this, I want to do business with this guy.

Tim MacLeod — So a big thing is where I’m selling it. It’s almost like I have an import business. It’s that I’m I’m ripping down the city and I’m shopping in the Tesla BMW neighborhoods where nobody has trucks and they sell really slowly.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Tim MacLeod — And I’m loading a trailer and then bringing it home to the sticks where there’s not as much supply. And I’m selling to people who do have pickup trucks. Like where I live, there’s lots of people with trucks and trailers, but they weren’t doing that drive to the city like I did.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Tim MacLeod — So I’m destroying a Toyota Highlander in kilometers, which is really hard to do. It’s at 400,040 and she ain’t quitting anytime soon. It’s been a great car.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Tim MacLeod — So that is definitely like the fact that it feels like an import business feels like cheating.

Rich Birch — Well, and can I just, I just want to interrupt you for a second here. This, because that dynamic, this is a part of why I wanted to have you on the show. Because one of the things that I’ve seen is like, it’s super common, like super common for church leaders to not live in the community that they serve. Because frankly, they can’t afford to live there because of that gap that I just told you about.

Rich Birch — There is a wage gap between what people make and the communities they serve in. And so they typically live you know, 45 minutes, an hour away. I actually think that that, the fact that they’re just driving into the office could be, and then going back to wherever they live, could actually set them up for running this kind of business just because they’re in and out of where they’re at.

Tim MacLeod — Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’d be cheating. If you could, if you could grab a couch on your way home from on your way home from work to bring it back to the sticks, that’d be awesome.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. I see that all the time.

Tim MacLeod — For sure. And at a lot of…

Rich Birch — So the distance is one way. So there’s like an import out, out, port anything else that you get, it’s kind of an interesting part of how you negotiate on to try to increase the, the, the price.

Tim MacLeod — Knowing what it’s worth and how quickly it would sell is definitely a factor. And just patience wins on both sides.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — Being the dude who um can pick it up and someone is now, they had their optimistic kick at the can and now it needs to go and their patience has run out. Patience wins there. And then on the selling side to where I don’t, it’s not in my foyer. It’s not in my living room. The new couch hasn’t arrived. It’s in a storage locker ready to be picked up anytime. And my lockers are fairly affordable being in a rural spot.

Tim MacLeod — And so it’s kind of like if if we were playing poker, I’m holding aces. I can deliver it. I can sell to anybody. I’m not relying on people on the small demographic who can pick it up. I can sell to the Honda Civic crowd. I can sell to seniors who can’t lift a couch themselves. I can finesse it into a patio door by myself. And so there’s the there’s the skill gap there as well. And all of the all of the hindrances that make selling a couch difficult are not a factor for me. I can lift them by myself. I can I have the best trailer. I have storage lockers. They can take as long as they need to sell. And I live in a market where there’s not as much supply. So it’s just, it feels like cheating. Like I’m just really, really set up for it. And it’s super easy to be patient.

Rich Birch — Now, I don’t know if I’m going to force you to give away one of your secret weapons here, but talk about the videos that you shoot ah of the, you know, of the products. Because i to me, I think this is one of the things you do that I think is super unique. What is what’s unique about the videos that you might shoot? Say got this nice leather couch. It’s like, you know, it sells for $5,000 somewhere else. You’re selling it for whatever, $1,500, $2,000. What’s actually in that video that might set your your listings apart?

Tim MacLeod — Yeah, so that was something that I feel like I pioneered. And since then, Facebook has now added a feature where you can add a video to a listing. But it’s so nice to have. So I’m I’m posting flattering photos. So it’s it’s a scroll stopper when they’re on Marketplace.

Tim MacLeod — And they’ll inquire. And then my video is super, super honest. And the goal is for it to be so detailed that they could confidently say, okay, he just showed me all the reasons not to buy the couch because all my stuff is used. I’m not selling anything new. It’s all pre-owned. They all have some blemishes or some quirks or worn spots or something like that. But to include ah a video that shows all of the reason not to buy it really, really greases the wheels because no one’s coming to see a couch and then being disappointed when they get there. Everything was already shown.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Tim MacLeod — So they’re coming to just give, basically just come sit and sniff and make sure that it’s something that they would want in their house, or something they’d want to sit on for two hours a day. And, um, and so those videos really, really saved me so much time and gasoline. And since then they’ve added that where you can add a feature. So, or where you can add a video into the listing. And so as long as the video is less than a minute, so I’m aiming for 59 seconds, I’ll fill the whole thing and I’m showing every inch of it and I’m packing it with dialogue on the neighborhood that it came from, the people, the house. And a lot of times that’s a selling feature of this this couch came from North York. The house was ridiculous.

Rich Birch — Right.

Tim MacLeod — It’s one of those houses with three living rooms. And this is the one that had the Christmas tree for a month a year. Like this was barely used. And I’m just packing it with dialogue and really, really selling it.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Tim MacLeod — And my goal is that I could deliver it with them like sight unseen that they could firm up. And that when that couch arrives, there are absolutely no surprises. It’s everything they ask for [inaudible]…

Rich Birch — Which from from your point of view, like this isn’t the only couch you’re hoping to sell this week. And and a part of the way that you have to protect your time and protect your business, frankly, is not having a bunch of people come and check out couches and then decide against it. Whether they’re coming to your locker or you’re driving it to their place. That’s like the worst case scenario is they show up and they’re like, oh, I don’t want this. So you might as well be fully upfront and be like, hey, here’s some stuff that’s not great about it.

Rich Birch — And you do it in a really clever way. I love those videos. You helped me sell a car, which was fantastic. And I love the video you did for, you know, for that, because it was the same thing. It was this kind of like fun, um you know, here’s five reasons why you shouldn’t buy this, which which is just endearing. People, you know, lean in and want to hear more about that.

Rich Birch — Well, what about the lifting piece? So, you know, if you’re not seeing one of these clips, Tim is a man of a certain size. He’s got some girth to him. He can pick stuff up. But what if I can’t? What if I’m not that guy? What if it more like me? You know, you’re like, hey, I’m not sure that guy can pick up 20 pounds. Like, is that like, I know that’s a part of what your you offer. Obviously, it’s a part of your advantage. But, you know, not everybody can do that. Talk us through that hesitation.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah, I don’t think that it’s a deal breaker for having success. I think that if you can carry in a stubborn load of groceries in from the house that you could make a lot of money flipping couches.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Tim MacLeod — And it it feels like a very unique form of laziness. Like I’m the kind of guy that if I need to go start start the barbecue or go run and grab my wallet from the car, I’m going to walk across the whole house and look for my flip flops instead of bending over and lacing up my boots that are right there. Like it’s a very unique form of laziness where I could jackknife park the trailer up to the storage locker. I have the dolly, but I’d way rather just, hey-yep-hey-yep-pep-pep just, just he-man lift it myself. And I’ve got a lot of really good mechanics lifting it.

Tim MacLeod — Lifting a couch solo actually is not very heroic. And, and I’ve taught a lot of people how to do it. And there is, there are some heroic angles where, where the couch is on the ground and all four feet are on the ground to like clean and jerk it up overhead is that would definitely take some mass and some explosive power, but you can always also lift the couch up from the side until it’s vertical and then kind of like let it teeter and, fall on you in ah in a safe manner. And the lift itself, like once it’s up, it’s it’s as easy as like portaging a canoe. It’s not it’s not as heroic as it seems.

Tim MacLeod — And I’m still reliant on other people. I am a one man show and it’s not, the money’s not good enough to pay an employee to sit in the car with me for four hours for 30 seconds of actual work. And so that’s one of my, one of my questions that I’m asking people, lift with two T’s on my phone expands into is anyone available to help me lift it? I’ll be alone. So I do need muscle.

Tim MacLeod — And, um, if it’s in the garage, I can do it solo, like dragging a couch onto my trailer is easy enough. They slide very well. And I do have the dolly if there’s anything overly technical, like the pullouts, it’s nice to have a dolly. But yeah, a lot of the times there’s people, there’s someone there to help me lift it. And very, very rarely is it, sorry, I had back surgery or sorry, I’m a single senior lady or something like that. There’s usually, and even even when they say that, sometimes I’ll press a little further. Like, do you have a helpful neighbor?

Rich Birch — Right. Meet us.

Tim MacLeod — Do you have a son-in-law who can who could that I could coordinate with? Yep. And a lot of times I’m just handing it, or I’m squeezing them for a cell phone number of whoever the the muscle is. And now I’m on their schedule.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Tim MacLeod — So solo lifts are not required, but they are, they are helpful sometimes, especially at the locker when I’m by myself.

Rich Birch — So this is how many years you’ve been doing this full time? Like you, so you left nursing, you know, I know this goes way back to the beginning the story. You left nursing and then how many times, how many years you’ve been doing this?

Tim MacLeod — July, 2019, I borrowed the trailer from my brother. And I did full-time nursing plus evening couches for about a year, pulled back from full-time to part-time, part-time to casual. And I think it was May, 2021. Like I did a year of COVID nursing and hated every second of it. Like as soon as COVID was announced, I wanted to be out of there, but I had mortgage approval on the brain and T4 income, or W2 income for the Americans, is much more preferred for lenders than self-employed income. So I held on for that reason. And eventually left just because I hated nursing. I was getting like ulcers on my ears from wearing masks all day. Just the the charades of COVID were really, really ruining it for me.

Rich Birch — So we’re going I want to get to that, that help that you’re, you know, you’re offering, which is fantastic. But I want to think about like a person that, you know, they, we want people to stay in their jobs. We don’t want them necessarily to leave. And so ah somebody that wants to make maybe like an extra thousand bucks a month, maybe that’s like, which is, you know, to lots of people, that is like a, that’s a game changer. Like that’s like, that makes all the difference in the world.

Rich Birch — Give me a sense of what you think that would take to actually get to that point where, okay, yes, I could, you know, how much time do you think they would need to invest? You know, what would, what is that going to look like? How many couches do you think I’d have to move? You know, I know that’s hard to say. It’s like all North America wide, but give us a sense of kind of the framework of for an extra thousand bucks a month, what would that look like for somebody? Maybe it’s like a youth pastor that’s that’s listening in or an executive pastor. Or and they’re like, Hey, if I just had an extra 1000 bucks that’d make a huge difference in my life. What what would that look like?

Tim MacLeod — Sounds like five couches to me.

Rich Birch — Five couches. Okay.

Tim MacLeod — Buy them for 50, sell them for 250. Delivered. Yep. And that’s that’s a great way to start is just three-seaters. Just rinse and repeat. Three-seater, three-seater, three-seater. But the money is sets and sectionals. That’s where my focus is now.

Rich Birch — Okay, okay.

Tim MacLeod — Now that does require trailer privilege. But with a with a minivan, you can pick up a three seater. Most three seaters will fit inside a Dodge Caravan or an Odyssey or a Toyota Sienna. And that’s a really good way to start lean and mean with a U-Haul, enclosed trailer, you just need a V6 all wheel drive. So obviously preferred, especially if you have the kind of weather we do, but, um, yeah, for 45 bucks for a U-Haul enclosed, that’s, that’s insured so that you could get in an accident and you’re not paying for it. Always take the insurance. Always. It’s only like five bucks.

Tim MacLeod — But um yeah, 45 bucks for 12 by 6. And then you can pick up couch, love seat twice. But yeah, just fill in those trailers. But yeah, starting lean with what you have available and scaling up when it’s smart. And once you’ve proven that it’s possible in your market as well. But everyone’s using couches, so I think it’s good alright.

Rich Birch — Yeah, so five, so five couches. How many conversations do you think I’d have to get into take to buy five couches, maybe on that side first?

Tim MacLeod — I think, yeah, with the numbers, I think that if you were to start 30 conversations a month, that there would be, there would be five people that hit deadlines and they’d be like, sure. 50 bucks. If you can actually show up, it’s yours.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s that feels very doable. That doesn’t feel like crazy out of reach. Like there’s no way that feels like a good, you know, a great starting point for sure.

Tim MacLeod — And nobody wants to do it. The barrier for entry is, is ah high enough that it’s it’s basically a private little fishing pond. A lot of people to help.

Rich Birch — Right. So let’s talk about, I want to, you’re going to help people, which is amazing. And so you’ve put together some resources to help them kind of get the the ball rolling on this front. And how do, first of all, tell us what it is and then talk to us about how we can get that contact information. We’ll put links and all that in the show notes, but talk us through this.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah. So those scripts that I was talking about, um, I’ve made a Google doc that is available. All you got to do is comment scripts on any of my videos and, uh, my little robot Tim will fire over, um, just squeeze you for an email and then I’ll fire that over. And, uh, it’s a good little list and you can plug those in just copy and paste and plug them into keyboard shortcuts in your phone. And then you can use those.

Tim MacLeod — And it doesn’t have to be for couches. Like a lot of them are pretty couch specific, but just using those as inspiration for starting conversations and getting people to their best price and making sure that you have all the information so you’re making an informed purchase and there’s not any surprises. And and you’ll see with the with the flow of the conversation, I really am just gifting the blueprint on getting people to their best price.

Tim MacLeod — And yeah, and then in my in my bio on instagram I’ve also got the couch course and I’ve run that before as a high ticket offer um and I had help from an agency to, to get leads and all that stuff. And I didn’t like it cause I didn’t like how much people were having to pay in order for me to afford that team. And I just want it to be an impulse buy price range.

Tim MacLeod — So for a one hundred bucks, you can come along on a three month ride along with me while I’m pulling like $15,000 months. And, uh, the summer that I recorded that, was 2023 and I did 180k in sales with a gross profit so just sales minus cost of goods was north of a 100k, I think, after tax. I think it was like an 80k a year income.

Rich Birch — That’s amazing.

Tim MacLeod — And I had a three-year-old with me the entire time. My wife had gone back to work and was using her teaching license and I had a little three-year-old tow. And I also got 75 rounds golf in that year. So it’s, it’s…

Rich Birch — That just got some people’s attention. Yeah, that’s amazing.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah. The time freedom is stupid. The money is incredible. And, uh, it was, yeah, that was a really, really fun year.

Rich Birch — Love it. So what we want to do is send people to your Instagram. Would that be the best? So @thefulltimeflipper, @thefulltimeflipper. And again, you can just comment on any one of his videos.

Rich Birch — Well, first of all, Tim’s a great follow on social media. I’ve said this to lots of folks. It’s just such a fun follow. You know, it makes something like flipping just like I was like, man, I think I could do that. And, but just comment scripts on any of those and we’ll get access to those scripts.

Rich Birch — And then if you’ll find the link to tim-macleod.com on there as well, which takes you to the course, it’s only a hundred dollars friends. That’s worth your investment. It’ll, it’ll really literally outline. There’s a bunch we could have talked about today and there’s a bunch of details to get into. It will drive into all of those. Literally just take his approach and just do it. Like just, take his scripts, take the what he’s done and apply it. And you’ll for sure be able to find that extra thousand dollars a month or more, you know, down the road. So, yeah, I would love that. and Anywhere else we want to send them. So Instagram, @thefulltimeflipper, anything else about that?

Tim MacLeod — Oh, that’s lots. That’s good. And I was feeling pretty pretty silly that I never asked to come on your podcast earlier because a lot of my students are in church ministry in the States. And I think it’s such a sweet side hustle.

Tim MacLeod — For me, it was an escape from a job that I didn’t like. But the fact of that most people need supplementary income is pretty across the board and especially in ministry. And a lot of my students have um have had that background and are still in it. And a lot of the time, the people that are in church ministry have an advantage of storage where the church, like they’re like, oh, I got free storage at my church. Pastor said the back room is available. And he said, as long as I just keep a rotation of couches for the student ministry…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s a good call.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah, there was a lot of advantage there for church leaders. But yeah, it’s awesome, reliable, supplementary income. And it’s nice to not rely on your ministry for income. Like people aren’t in ministry for the big bucks. They’re there because they that is their purpose. That’s their calling. But the pressure of having to rely on that for income isn’t always the best.

Rich Birch — Well, and I do think, um you know, I think folks who are in church ministry, a part of what I why why I think this is great that we’re talking about this is you might underestimate that even like a part of your core, it’s like literally core to your business is like, be kind to people and like be helpful.

Tim MacLeod — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And, you know, you don’t need to be sleazy. You don’t need to be, ah you know, some sort of like, oh, you’re like a used car salesman of couches. No, that’s not what it is at all. You’re just being kind and helpful and you want to try to close this gap in the market. And and I think there’s a lot of people in ministry who are like, my I could totally do that. I can make that happen for sure. So, Tim, I really appreciate this.

Tim MacLeod — It really does feel like stewarding my gifts, you know?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. So again, that is, if you just go to Instagram, @thefulltimeflipper, you should follow them there and then comment scripts for any of those. Appreciate you being on the show today, sir. Thanks so much.

Tim MacLeod — Thanks, man.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Scott Landry, Senior Pastor of The Bridge in Ontario. Scott first joined the church in 2013 as a worship and student pastor before later stepping into the senior pastor role.

Is your leadership marked by hidden wounds? Do you struggle with vulnerability in your ministry? Are you fighting the wrong battles—externally and internally? Scott recently released his first book, The Fight, a raw, deeply reflective look at the internal battles that shape our lives. Tune in as Scott’s story of redemption after hitting rock bottom offers an honest, hopeful picture of what it looks like to stop hiding, confront the truth, and let God rebuild what was lost.

Visit www.bridgechurches.ca to learn more about The Bridge, and pick up Scott’s book ,The Fight, on Amazon. To connect with Scott, find him on Instagram at @scottmlandry.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You are going to be rewarded today. We’ve got a great conversation lined up. I have my friend Scott Landry with us. He is the lead pastor at a fantastic church called The Bridge in or just outside of Ottawa, Ontario.

Rich Birch — He joined the team in 2013 as the pastor of worship and student ministry and now serves as the senior pastor. Just being totally honest, friends, Scott and I are friends in real life. So it’s, these are actually, I find some of the funnier conversations because it’s like this weird conceit of like, we’ve got microphones between us and all of that. So, but Scott, welcome. So glad you’re here today.

Scott Landry — Honored to be here with you, and better yet to be your friend.

Rich Birch — This is going to be good. This is I’m really look looking forward to today’s conversation. So, um ah dear listener, I’m just going to pull back the the curtain. I really want you to listen in. Scott is an incredible leader and is doing, there’s lots of different things we could talk about, the way you’re using his his leadership and the church is growing and making an impact. And he’s got a bunch of platinum problems that he’s trying to figure out. And you know, where to get space and all that. But, but actually is none of that I want to talk about today. Actually, earlier this year, Scott released and a book. He wrote a book called “The Fight”. And what we’re going to talk about today is a little bit of the content, what it’s about and what led him to that process. And and then about ah the impact on ah his church. And I really want you to listen to in friends, think there’s a lot we can we can take out of this.

Rich Birch — Why don’t you, how do you describe the book? When you, someone says like, oh, you wrote a book? What’s that on? I’d love to hear that. I’ve read the book, friends, so you just so you know.

Scott Landry — Yeah, um it’s honestly somewhat of an autobiography, but it’s also a personal therapy session that’s on paper. It’s a little bit of biblical perspective in light of those things. And then I think hopefully pointing people who might read it to some level of personal insight or maybe personal application to both, both my story and also more importantly, the scriptural kind of you know, underlying and all of it.

Scott Landry — So yeah, it’s not a self-help book, but I think it’s a self-reflective book.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Scott Landry — And kind of hoping that people, yeah, hoping that people might see their story in the midst of mine. And and what what are the things that connect or are kind of similar threads through everybody’s story. And, uh, and, and it was, it it was, it was the cheapest version of therapy I could come up with, really. It was a lot of just kind of looking at my life and trying to make sense of it and and trying to find, find words for feelings I didn’t even know I felt. And, uh, yeah. And so just kind of putting it all out there for myself and also, for my kids and then, you know, the, the, you and the three other people that might read it. So it’s great.

Rich Birch — Ah, and that’s not true. A lot more people than that have read it. At the core of this book, and we’ll get into this, friends, but at the core of this book, I would say it’s a high level of transparency. Like you are, you know, you let people in on, hey, here’s some stuff that I’ve been wrestling with, you know, over these years.

Rich Birch — And I think most pastors think they should be transparent. That always hasn’t been the case. I’ve been in ministry long enough that there was a time where I think people actually wanted religious leaders who seemed perfect and were like…

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …they’re these like, they’ve got their whole life together. That’s not the case anymore. People are looking for, and I think leaders want to be transparent. We want we want to kind of be honest with people. But the stakes sometimes feel higher for some reason. So what kind of led you to the place where you’re like, hey, I want to be vulnerable in a way, ah in written form, with your people, with the community around you?

Scott Landry — Yeah, that’s a great question. Honestly, I think it was the fact that I hadn’t been authentic and vulnerable for too long and then lost everything because of it. You know, obviously I write in the book about my journey. I was a pastor for 10 years. I had a a seminary degree and didn’t have an unSeminary one, but I had the degree on the wall and I had, you know, the…

Rich Birch — The real one, the real one.

Scott Landry — They’re the real one. Yeah. And, uh, but I had all of that. I had 10 years of, of experience standing on stages and preaching the gospel and sharing who Jesus was. And, but the truth is I never really bought what I’d been selling, like in a personal, intimate way. And I wouldn’t say I was good at selling it, but I, but certainly, you know, had been doing it long enough, and and and and in some ways had been successful doing that. like Like good things were happening, ministry was growing, you know people were excited. And so then there becomes this like, oh, well, the lie, it’s amazing the lies that we can tell ourselves and the things that we can convince ourselves of.

Scott Landry — So as a professional Christian for 10 years, you know, talking about but all these things and then my own life being a complete mess. And so as a leader, I’m sure other leaders that are listening to this can relate like I’m a dreamer. I always have been, always will be. But I was living a nightmare. And and for I was I had actually become a villain in my own story.

Scott Landry — And and and I lost everything. A marriage fell apart. A relationship with my daughter, it was was severed at a very young age. She was four. Ministry was over. Like it was it was all done in an instant. And so 10 years of of hiding and not being, not authentic just for the people, but to my own self. And so when God resurrected my life and resurrected ministry, which I never thought was gonna happen, I was like, that that can’t ever happen again.

Scott Landry — And so I wanted to kind of be someone who would lead by going first and saying, you know, and, and so I’ve been vulnerable and transparent from the pulpit. But this was something else. And, and I still am not sure why God prompted me to do this, but, but I would say, I never, I never want to go back to hiding.

Scott Landry — And I think, I think we hide for a lot of reasons. I think there’s pastors or leaders listening to this. We hide, ultimately, I think we can give all the excuses we want, but it’s like, who you going to tell? Who you and what are you going to tell them? And and the minute you do, it’s like, well, then I’m going to be disqualified. I’m going to lose my job. Like, so it’s like, we kind of do this thing where I think I shared with you before. It’s like, I’m going to, we we almost force ourselves into a corner and convince ourselves we’re going to fake it till we make it. And ultimately what ends up happening is we fake it till we’re found out.

Scott Landry — And and that’s, I mean, we’ve we’ve heard so many stories of that. And I was just like, that happened to me and I would hate for it to happen to anyone else. And I certainly am not going to let it happen to me again.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I, friends, you can see why I’ve had Scott on today. There’s a lot here to, I think that all of us need to wrestle with. In fact, one of the, when I didn’t, didn’t even told you this, this is one of the the things I was, when I was reading it, um I had a mentor, a guy I worked for earlier in my career who his life has spectacularly failed. He had to has one of these situations that’s just blown up, and ministry’s blown up and all that.

Rich Birch — And ironically, I find there’s ah multiple things about his leadership that I carry with me. And one of the things that I remember him saying very early on was he was like, there’s this interesting dance we do as leaders where we let people in. We know we have to let people into our, into our story, but we only let them in far enough.

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — We only let them in some, to something. And you’re always going to draw that line somewhere. The question is, where do you draw that line? And, um you know, you’ve chosen to to be very open and say, hey, this is my experience. This is who I’ve been here. And you kind of cast it in the book, not kind of, it’s literally called “The Fight”. You cast it in the book as an internal fight, the stuff beneath the service that shapes ultimately who we become. How do you discern, where are you drawing that line? How much are we able to, how transparent can we really be?

Scott Landry — Yeah. That’s a great question. I think for me, it’s a few things. I’m not sure who said it. Um, but I, I, I’ve heard it said multiple different ways, but like, you know, you share your scars, not your wounds. So I’ve kind of, I think there’s a lot of truth to that. So for me, it’s like, if I’m still bleeding, that’s for therapy. That’s for trusted friends. That’s for my wife. That’s for Jesus.

Scott Landry — But if it’s a wound that has, that is healed, and somebody can see their story in it and it’s helpful for them as either they’re still bleeding or or it could prevent them from getting hurt, then to me it’s worth sharing.

Scott Landry — I’ve kind of come to the conclusion in my life, vulnerability isn’t weakness. it it’ it’s It’s actually it’s actually a gift. It’s there there is something to vulnerability in sitting with someone. You and I have done this without microphones in front of us. And we’ve we’ve told things to each other with tears in our eyes. And there’s something powerful that happens. That is a gift that you give someone. And it’s a gift for for what you give them and what you share to them.

Scott Landry — But it’s also the gift to them that’s like this could, I could actually do this myself. It’s freeing for me to be given this gift to know it might not be with you, but with someone I could do that too. And, and that gift, I don’t think we truly understand how freeing and the weight that could be lifted by going first in that way. So for me, I’ve just decided that’s that’s who I’m going to be moving forward. So that the book is “The Fight” and because life is a fight. And to me, vulnerability and authenticity are worth fighting for.

Rich Birch — I’d love to dig into some of the some of the stuff that you actually talk about in the book, kind of dig a couple layers deeper. You write about the danger of fighting the wrong battles that we can find ourselves in conversations that we we shouldn’t be in. You know, pulling out this… talk us through that. How does that relate? How have you seen that in your life?

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And then what is that? How do you lead differently out of that? Because, you know, how do we pick the right battles? Talk me through that.

Scott Landry — Yeah, I think it’s a personal thing. It certainly applies to leadership as well on a personal level. I think many times we fight, we fight with the people we’re supposed to fight for.

Scott Landry — I think we fight amongst family members and, and then, you know, times goes by and you’re like, was that even worth it? I think, so I think those things happen. It’s like, how many fights have you had with your spouse? And it’s like I’m supposed to be fighting with you, not against you. Like we’re supposed to be in this together. And I’ve seen that happen in leadership too. It’s amazing to me how church people can, can hurt each other and and fight with each other and over things like carpet and and song selections and song volume and and preaching styles.

Scott Landry — And so for me in leadership, it’s fighting the wrong battles. I talk about it, the David and Eliab thing, and you know, on the, on the battlefield where Goliath is kind of waiting in the wings and it’s really the main event. And, so much could have been so different if David had wasted his time in that argument. And, and he would have been justified in doing it. I mean, his, his character was being questioned. I mean, that’s worth fighting against. And it’s like, David’s like, I don’t get time for this, right? And I think how many of us as leaders spend so much time in the comment section, we’re fighting critics and we’re missing out on the giants.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Scott Landry — You know, you, you, like that that in our culture, I think, is a huge one for leaders. And it’s like…

Rich Birch — Yeah, big deal.

Scott Landry — …oh, we’re so…And and I’m I’m guilty of that. You know we’re the other one I struggle with, I’m sure no one listening to this could can relate to this, but I spend so I spend so much time spending energy on who’s left, and not who’s here or who could be coming. And it’s like, and and you know what? Many times the people who’ve left, they were never really here anyway. Now that’s not to say we haven’t done something wrong at times and hurt people, but it’s like, man, I’ve I’ve spent so much time trying to convince that one person. Cause I’m like, oh, Jesus would leave the 99 to go after the one. And I’m like, maybe not that one. No, I’m just kidding.

Rich Birch — That’s good. I like that.

Scott Landry — But you know what I mean? Like but…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Scott Landry — …but we do. And and it’s it’s tragic how how distracted we can become. And and we we miss out in the fights that matter most because of ones that weren’t worth fighting to begin with.

Rich Birch — Well, and this this is why we’ve seen a lot of pastors make the decision, church leaders make the decision, like, I just need to step back from social media. Because it’s like, you know, it’s like it’s like it’s set up for us to pick fights with other church leaders.

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Like, it’s like, you know, that people are out there and there’s and there seems like there are for whatever reason, there are ah brothers and sisters in the faith who, who think that it’s their job to agitate, like that they’re like the professional agitators out there. And it’s like, so then we’re fighting with some other pastor or whatever, but that’s not, that’s like a total distraction from our mission. Like this, who, that person’s going to Jesus is going to be fine. Like, what about, like you say, the people that aren’t here yet.

Rich Birch — There’s a moment in the book where you describe kind of being hitting a rock bottom or hitting an emotional bottom and crying out to God. Would you mind opening up a little bit about that? What did that teach you?

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know, what God meets us when, when all our strength runs out.

Scott Landry — Well, yeah, that the, I mean, that I hope that’s a powerful moment in the book because it was it genuinely the most powerful moment in my life. And this was this was kind of at the crescendo of my my breaking point. So after after, you know, my my marriage and my my my life specifically falling apart. And I kind of lived in a place of isolation. I was living in, in, in, in the North, Canadian North. And, I was, yeah, I was lost. I was, I was angry. Like I had so much anger. And it was, so yeah, I talk about in the book. And, and, uh, I was angry and ultimately I was angry at myself, but I was also angry at God.

Scott Landry — And, um, because even after, again, making a mess of my own life. Like He didn’t make a mess of my life. Nobody made the mess of my life. I made the mess of my life. And, but then after that, I was trying to do everything right. And I was trying to, you know, do the right thing, do the right thing. And I was like, God, when are you going to start intervening on my behalf. And so, you know, being the the preacher that I am, I was like, I got all the Bible verses that tell me that you’re going to like now is you’re going to do the redemptive thing. You’re going to show up, you’re going to move, you’re going to fix, you’re going to redeem, you’re going to restore, you’re going to repair, you’re going to do all the R words. And, and nothing was happening. Like it was like…

Rich Birch — Right.

Scott Landry — …and, and it was almost as if I, heard and I literally heard nothing. And I’d like to say I didn’t feel anything, but I did. It was just this, this anger that was welling up inside of me, like a, like a pot boiling. And eventually it just, I just became unhinged. Like I was alone. And I was completely isolated. I was in this, you know, empty house and I just started crying out like, and yelling out. And I threw, I threw things. I used words I’ve, I’m ashamed to admit I used. Like, I mean, I was as unhinged as could possibly, I was like, I gotta, if I saw you face to face, I would give you the thing. Like I told him all this stuff.

Scott Landry — And, and what I found in that moment was like, and again, I talk about it in the book, but like I yelled, God, I don’t even believe in you anymore. I’m done. Like, like I don’t I don’t believe. You’ve promised me that you would never leave me. You would never forsake me. And that’s exactly what you’ve done. I’ve told people that you would never leave them and forsake them. And yet you’ve done that to me. You are you are dead to me. I don’t believe in you anymore. And I even now, I still feel this when I’m just talking about it. But like, this is, and this is, I know some people are going to roll their eyes at this. But like, genuinely, when I heard myself say that, I felt this like, over me, over my house. It was like this eerie like pause. And I heard, as if I’ve ever heard the voice of God, I heard a voice say, well, then who are you yelling at? And it was like this, like…

Rich Birch — Beautiful.

Scott Landry — …and in that moment, it was like, my anger was, it wasn’t my degree. It wasn’t my Bible. It was, it was my anger was my evidence that God was present right then and right there. And because my anger was directed at him. And he knew that I was angry with him.

Scott Landry — And he met me at the place of my anger. And he was waiting. And this is the part that I still, I can’t do this, what’s what’s in my head, into my heart justice. But it was God was saying, I’ve been waiting for you at this place your whole life.

Rich Birch — Wow. Right.

Scott Landry — You have been hiding from this anger from your childhood, from your young adulthood, and I’ve been waiting for you to meet me here at your anger. And I’ve I’ve wanted you to know that I would be here waiting for you. And if you met me on the top of the tallest mountain, and if you look me face to face, and if you were to give me the finger, you would find me there waiting because I am waiting at who you really are, not who you’re pretending to be.

Scott Landry — And everyone around you, you’ve got them fooled and you’re used car salesman and you can spin the Bible verses and you can do all that other stuff. But I know who you really are. And I’m waiting for you to finally be honest with yourself about who you really are. And now that you finally are, now we can do something about that together.

Scott Landry — And that was the moment that God truly revealed himself to me. And that’s when I, for the first time in my life, truly discovered who I was. And yeah, that that’s the moment that I hope anybody who ever meets me or talks to me or listens to me or reads in it, like that’s the part that I long for people to have before it costs them like it costs me.

Rich Birch — I just want to say thank you for for going there and talking about that. Because to me, that…and friends, you should pick up a copy of the book. I’m not trying to sell the book, but you should pick up a copy and actually…it’s worth it for this interaction. Because I think as pastors, people who are in what we do, I think we can give, we can put a varnish on all of this. And it and and I love that picture of you yelling at God. And then and then he’s like, well who are you yelling at? Like, what’s, what’s you you know…

Scott Landry — Yeah. You don’t believe it. You don’t believe in me, but you’re yelling at me. Yeah. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yes. Like, I think, I think that is such a, I don’t know, there’s so much there. And I think it’s beautiful that you would open up about that and tell, talk to us here. I feel a little bit bad because I feel like I’m getting you to mine out like one of the best parts of the book, but that, um, at its core, I think would be hard for a lot of leaders to even admit to say, because by this point, friends, again, remember the pre-story, you had been a professional Christian for a long time. Like that that you had built your life around taking money from people…

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and doing this and came to that moment of crisis. So talk to me about the road back from there. So there’s obviously, you know, between there and today, you know, something happened. So talk us through…

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …kind of what were some of those key steps? We’re not going to be able to cover all of it, but some of those key things that, that God used on that journey.

Scott Landry — Yeah. Well, the immediate one was that I needed to get away. I was living in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories at the time, and I needed to get to Ontario because that’s where my four-year-old daughter was. And that necessity was kind of the you know the spark of of God beginning a redemptive work in my life.

Scott Landry — And and then again, had never thought that I would be back in you know ministry in terms of you know a job or a career. I I I and iI wasn’t I had no idea what I was gonna do. And so I just did what I had to do to survive.

Scott Landry — And, and, and again, God just, it’s the, it’s, it’s all this cliches. It’s all the songs we sing. It’s, you know, he made beauty for ashes. He, he resurrected things I was certain was dead. And so, and, and there were, he was orchestrating things to, to, you know, provide another way for me to get back into what he called me to do, which, you know, again, I, I, it would take me a long time to, to get into it.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Scott Landry — But I, again, I think it was just, it was, I just took the steps I had to take because I, and, but they were the steps that he was preparing for me to take, you know?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Scott Landry — It’s and I, and I see that now, but it didn’t, it just felt like, like necessity then. But it was more than necessity. It was, it was intention. So, yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I don’t I don’t know if I’ve said this to you, but I think, in fact, I’m pretty sure I haven’t said this to you. One of the, you know, I mentioned, and and you know the person I’m talking about whose life fell apart. You know, one of my own reflections on that experience as a leader that was in that person’s orbit, pretty close to that orbit, in hindsight, um was we have to do a better, the collective we have to do a better job on helping people to talk about what’s going on on the inside in a way that doesn’t just immediately jump to, hey, like, you you know, you should not think that thought. Like, you know, we we need to be better at that. And I you think you’ve done a gift in this, you know, this with this book.

Rich Birch — One of the things you also talked about is this whole idea that comfort can be the enemy of our calling. And I wish you didn’t write about this, but because, ah you know, it’s like convenience is and comfort are organizing principles of culture, right? That is like our entire culture is based around how do I make myself more comfortable? And and it’s true. I agree. Like I’m, you know, I’ve been on the Peloton and I’ve felt discomfortable. And then at the end of that, I’m like, I’m glad I did that in the middle of it. I was hating it. I get that. Talk us through that. What’s that journey been like in this kind of return home? How has that played a, you know, a part of that as a part of the journey?

Scott Landry — Yeah, I think I think what I’ve learned is pain is always preparation. And and to me, I use the word always because I don’t see it never being that. I think there’s always something in in in a situation of discomfort or pain that is always preparing you for something that’s next for you or something that’s next for someone else that’s going to require you to be a part of it.

Scott Landry — So the pain that I go through a lot of times is is you know preparing my my son or my daughter. Um, and so it’s always preparation for something. And that’s what I write about in the book, the story of Joshua, you know, it’s, it’s the most uncomfortable thought in the world that, you know, the, the, before their greatest battle, they, they’re circumcised, as, as men. And it’s like, oh, you know, that’s, that’s one conversation when the kid’s like a couple days old or eight days old as it was supposed to be. But when you’re, you know, 18, 20, that’s a whole different conversation.

Scott Landry — And, Any guy that’s listening right now feels uncomfortable, but that’s, but that’s the point. God brought them to a place specifically to bring pain into their lives because of the destiny that he had for them.

Scott Landry — And I think that’s just true in life, you know, it’s, and, and, and going through those things is crucial. It’s always, there’s always something next. And I think that’s the thing that I’ve, and again, I use the analogy of the fight and I tried to do that in the book because I, you know, I’m not a fighter in terms of like, I don’t do, you know, mixed martial arts or anything. I love that stuff and I love watching it. And I love boxing, which the the movie Rocky was part of the inspiration for the book or at least the theme of it.

Scott Landry — And I think when you look like look at that stuff, what you always see is fighters fight a fight, so they can fight another fight. It’s like, I want to win this fight because I want to win this fight, but winning this fight sets me up for another fight that has greater reward for me.

Scott Landry — And so I’m I’m inspired to win this fight because it’s going to put me or it’s going to allow me to fight on another level and another dimension. And I think, you know, in leadership, I think the challenges or the platinum problems, as you call them, you know, I think those are preparation. They’re not just to solve and the problem itself to be solved. It’s also preparation for a problem that’s coming because of getting through this one.

Scott Landry — And I think when we start to see it that way and we can view the fight as like, I always pray that God will cause the fight to end. Like, God, just, just stop. Like, get me through this fight. Instead of praying, God, will you help me become the person in the midst of this fight that I need to be for the fight that’s coming down the road? It, that perspective, I think changes everything.

Scott Landry — And if as leaders, we looked at our current challenges and struggles as like, hey, this is just preparation for something bigger. I think we’d i think we’d go into it a whole lot differently. And I think we would be willing to endure it just and with a different mindset. And so, yeah, that’s that’s what I’ve I’ve come to discover my own life through this thing.

Rich Birch — Like our friend T.D. Jakes said, every level, a new devil. Like it’s like, right?

Scott Landry — Yeah, yeah, totally.

Rich Birch — This idea of like, hey, we’re going to get through this, but then that’s just going to open up something else that we got to get through. And I think that’s, I think it’s a great metaphor and is, I see too many people who are, and it could be, you know, people of my age or whatever.

Rich Birch — I must, you know, you reach a certain age with enough zeros on the end. You hit a couple of those zero birthdays. And then you look around at your friends and you’re like, the people that, that don’t inspire me are the ones that are hitting the coast mode.

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — That are like, Hey, I’m going to try to, i’m going to try to make life more comfortable. It’s the people that are saying, no, let’s lean in. Let’s look, what can we do next? What is the thing that God’s got for us? I love that. Well…

Scott Landry — Well, I tell people, oh, sorry, I was just going to say just…

Rich Birch — Go ahead. No, go ahead.

Scott Landry — …well, just to to kind of follow up on that. I think practically, what does that mean? Or what does that look like for us? Like, I you know, we talk to our staff all the time, right? I, you know, constantly tell them it’s like, to embrace that means in leadership, you’ve got to have uncomfortable conversations now because you’re going to have them anyway.

Rich Birch — Right.

Scott Landry — So comfort tells us, oh, like if I just let it go or if I just like, no, you’re you’re just prolonging the inevitable conversation. So have it now.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Scott Landry — You know, or or you sit with emotions that you’re feeling. You got to sit with them a little longer before you act on them. That’s not comfortable. We want to just, you know, so it’s that balance. Like it’s, It’s, ah you know, even obeying before understanding, right?

Scott Landry — Like, like you’ve got like all those lessons and those places of discomfort, I think are all preparation pieces for the greater thing. So…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah. And even in the physical world, like I was thinking about this when I was on my Peloton prepping for this. And I know you have Peloton, that like there was a time when there would be numbers on the screen in front of me that those numbers felt like death. Like I’m like, this is not like, I can’t keep doing this. But then what happens over time is you, your body acclimatizes to that, right? You become healthier. You get your cardiovascular system, your VO2 max grows, and then you’re able to, ah you know, to carry more. And I think that is true in leadership. I think that’s true in our spiritual life. I think there is like a, you know, kind of bearing on the weight of it. And um yeah, I think that’s very true.

Rich Birch — Okay. I’d love to pivot in a totally different direction. So, you know, again, friends, you should pick up a copy of the book because I think it’ll be great. It’s spiritually enriching experience for you. I think this book could be helpful in like, there’s lots of conversations where I’m like, I think, I think this could be one of those books you have on your shelf. And you said, Hey, you know what, why don’t you read this book? This might help you think through, you know, might be a real encouragement. So I will, we’ll get to where you can get that in a minute.

Rich Birch —But I want to kind of talk more about kind of the meta experience of you as a pastor, writing a book, choosing to do that. When you first introduced me to this idea, I still remembered it. You were like, I do not want to write a book. I am writing a book. Like, and it was like this, I am compelled. It is by obedience that I am, who knows? I think literally the thing you said to me the first time, and it was through tears, was like, I’m not really even sure why like I’m doing this thing, who knows? So talk to me about that obedience. What did that first step look like? Kind of help me ah or understand the process. Talk about that a little bit.

Scott Landry — Yeah, it’s funny. You did a great version of me there. That’s exactly how I said it. And that’s exactly how I felt. And I honestly, I still feel that way, even now that it’s out there in in the world. Yeah, it was totally an act of of obedience.

Scott Landry — And so for context, two years ago, my family vacations in Florida. I, I have no shame. I mooch off my in-laws who have a condo there. My wife and I both lived there at one, at one point. So it’s kind of like going home.

Scott Landry — But anyway, long story, I was running on the beach. And, and I just, I felt like the Lord just stopped me and he gave me two very clear directives for the next chapter of my life. One was about the church and the other was to write a book.

Scott Landry — And the first one made complete sense to me. And the other one still makes absolutely no sense to me. I am not an, writer. I’m not an author. I’m not ah like, and who am I? Like all this kind of, you know, who am I syndrome started kicking in and and I was just like, whatever. So I came back two years ago and I got to work on the first one and ignored the second one.

Scott Landry — And I ignored the second one, writing a book for an entire year. And then on my birthday in September, I just, I felt like I was, I was genuinely like, how can I ask God to bless this first thing that he’s asked me to do if I’m being disobedient in this other thing that he’s asked me to do? And I, I don’t understand it. So to me, I’m, that justifies why I’m not doing it. And I was like, I’ve got to be obedient to this, whether I understand it or not. So that’s what I did. And so for me, obedience was opening a blank document. And just starting. And that’s what I did.

Scott Landry — And it was, and I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, Rich, but it was amazing to me. I’ve had writer’s block for sermons. This poured out of me…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Scott Landry — …in a way I was not expecting. Like it it was the draft that you read of the book or the first draft of the book was done in a little over three days.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Scott Landry — It just…

Rich Birch — Well, that surprised me even, you know, cause I remember you were, and that hasn’t been my experience with writing. It’s been like, I have found it like arduous. But I remember you’re like, Oh, I’m going away. I’m going to this thing. And then it was like, Oh yeah, I got it done. And I was like, wow. Like that’s, that’s incredible. That’s amazing. And then obviously then there’s all the editing and you got to actually get it.

Scott Landry — Well, yeah, I, yeah, everything after that was way longer than I or wanted it to be um um for sure.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Scott Landry — And way more than I expected it to be. But I think, I think I needed to me, to me, it was a piece of, it was a document that was basically like a therapy session that didn’t cost me anything other than time…

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Scott Landry — …that I needed to get a lot of stuff off my chest and and off my heart. And it just, I needed to open that document to do it. And I think maybe that is, and it didn’t occur to me until just now, that that may be the very reason that God wanted me to do it…

Rich Birch — Right.

Scott Landry — …was to free me of that so I could be released to do whatever has nothing about to do about the book. It just was his way of getting me to get through it.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I remember at one point, um hopefully I’m not outing something. We can cut this if you don’t want me to say this, but I remember at one point you were saying like, even if I just have it for my daughter, that would be a gift, right?

Rich Birch — Like it’s like for her at some point to read this would be, um you know, a gift. Actually, I know a friend of mine who has literally done that has written full books and literally got like got them printed and given it just to them for their kids.

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know, tens of thousands of words. So yeah, that’s, that’s, ah that’s incredible. So, you know, the writing of books in general, is I find the line between writing and thinking is very blurry. Like it’s like, it’s like almost in my mind, like it’s kind of the same thing. Like it’s the same activity. There’s obviously writing involved, but it’s like, it’s, it costs, it’s a, or it, it drives a lot of reflection, honesty, you know, thinking about all that stuff. Was there anything as you went through this therapy process of writing that actually just surprised you about like, Oh wow. Like that was either my reflection on that was different or, um, you know, we’re, you know, like anything surprised you through the process process?

Scott Landry — Yeah, there was a…good question. There was a couple things for sure. One of them was I had to go check. It’s amazing how your memory can be your greatest enemy. I remembered certain things a certain way and then going back and talking to my mother. Again, spoiler alert – I grew up in a single parent household. My mom is my hero, strongest woman ever.

Scott Landry — Anyways, and I write about her and, and my life growing up and what she had to do to get us through. So, so going back and, and, and really at as an adult, getting the details of what actually happened and what my perception of what happened happened. It was it was It was much worse than I understood…

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Scott Landry — …and what she endured and went through. And I gained a level of admiration from my, I thought I admired her, but I gained a level of admiration that is a gift. And, and, and every child should have the gift to see their parents the way that I see my mom. She is, she is amazing.

Scott Landry — So that, that’s one. The other one was, was I there was some things that I, I learned along the way. I think the first one was that I found was about the, the resentment that I had towards my father. And I, and, and I, as I was writing it, God just kind of revealed this to me that, that adapting, adapting to loss is different than than winning a fight. And I had adapted to the pain of what I had lost. And I thought that was the same thing as winning that fight against resentment. And they’re not the same thing.

Scott Landry — And that was that that was a real breakthrough moment for me. I was in a cabin near a ski hill as I was writing that. And it was like i was almost like I was watching a movie, watching myself have a moment.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Scott Landry — And it was just this this really beautiful moment between God and I. And I was just like, wow, God, thank you for for showing that to me. And then, give me the words to articulate this to my kids. Cause you’re right. I, I did first and foremost, write this for my kids, Emma and Parker. And I wanted them to know, you know, who they come from, what they come from. And, and, and hopefully if I never get the chance to tell them, they’ve got this to fall back on. And then my wife being my wife was like, well, if you’re going to do it for them, you might as well go all the way. So, so that’s, that’s, that’s what we did.

Rich Birch — Wow. Okay. So what did this process teach you as you’ve now, cause you’ve launched this book, it’s out in the world. You’ve, you can get it on Amazon. You, you know, it’s, you’ve done a series at the church. You’ve talked about it. You know, if you’ve been public about it.

Rich Birch — What did the launching of that teach you about your congregation, about your church? What resonated? What, how, how was it helpful? Any conversations that sparked kind of what was the impact that you’ve, now that you’ve landed this in, in your church?

Scott Landry — Yeah. Oh, I just got emotional there thinking about your question as you’re asking it. I think… what I talk about in the book, Rich, is that I’m a very insecure person. And and as a leader, I’m an insecure leader. And always, you know, that that dance between, you know, being authentic about who you are at the same time, the insecurity about that. And it’s, Lisa, my wife tells me all the time, if people knew how insecure you are, they they wouldn’t believe it, because you don’t present that way.

Scott Landry — But I was very insecure about doing this thing and the people that I serve, and and and journey together with seeing me in a way that they might change their mind about me. But the people at The Bridge, they love me, and they are so gracious to me. And I what I’ve discovered is that me being honest about who I am is is who they’ve wanted me to be the whole time.

Scott Landry — And so everybody that’s read the book, I shouldn’t say everybody, but I’ve gotten a lot of feedback from the people at The Bridge just thanking me for telling my story and then them saying so much of that I relate to, so much of that I needed right now telling me things about themselves that I had no idea was happening in their lives. And this has only been out for like a month.

Scott Landry — And so I’ve just gotten overwhelmed with, with people’s responses. And, and I think for our church, you know, one of our values is authentic storytelling And so, um, it just so happens that as a leader, you get to go first

Rich Birch — Right.

Scott Landry — And, and, and and in order for that value to be more than something that’s just plastered on a wall or a website, like I had, I didn’t know it was going to be in in the form of a book. But I do see that, that people are opening up in ways that, you know, just in the, in the in the last month to me and in others. So, yeah, but that that’s the thing that that i’ve I’ve seen in our church is just um that that I’ve been insecure about how I’m seen as a leader and and they’ve shown me that that they love me. And that’s the greatest gift, I’m telling you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool, man. I love that. That’s, and thanks for being vulnerable in your sharing there. Like I think I, you know, I think there is anyone that’s written has had a book definitely has those feelings on the inside of like, oh man, this was a bad idea like why am I doing this. And like I’m you know, the stuff I’ve written about is nowhere near as, you know, personal and tender as what you’ve written. And I can identify exactly with what you’re saying there around the like, what will people think of me? You know, and it’s amazing.

Rich Birch — So trying to extract a bit of, you know, there might be people that are listening and I hope there’s people that are listening in who would think like, maybe I should write a book. Or maybe, maybe they had a similar experience where God told them to write a book and they’ve been dragging their feet.

Scott Landry — Yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — What would be a couple kind of just practical takeaways, like maybe things you would say, I wish I would have known this before timelines, collaboration, editing, any of that kind of stuff.

Scott Landry — Yeah. Well, the first thing I would do is thankfully what I did, was talk to people who have done it. So you were one of those people and I was hoping that you were going to convince me not to do it. Thanks thanks for letting me down. But yeah, just like, and, and, you know, it’s like, Hey, talk to a few different people and, and, and, you know, what’s their process is and and kind of what they did.

Scott Landry — But the other thing that I learned quickly was everybody that I talked to does it differently. And so it wasn’t about figuring out the process. It was about finding my own.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Scott Landry — And so I kind of leaned on what I know of myself and how I kind of operate. And so that was one.

Scott Landry — I think the other one was You know, however much time you think it’s going to take, double it and then add some to that. Like it’s way more time than you think it’s going to going to take.

Scott Landry — I would, you know, what do they say? Like find people in your life who tell you what you need to know, not what you want to hear. Like it’s like whoever you’re going to invite into the process with you, like you want to collaborate with people who are going to tell you the truth, not that you’re profound. It’s like, yeah, like I, I wanted this to be the best that it could be for my kids.

Rich Birch — Right.

Scott Landry — And that’s why I asked, you know, you and a few others. And so, um, and then I think, you know, the other one is, is really have a clear, at least for me, and I don’t know if this is true for you, but it’s like, I’m sure it is, like, you know who you’re writing to and who you’re writing for.

Rich Birch — Right.

Scott Landry — And I think that has to be like, every time I sat down, like after a coffee and was like, okay, here, we’re opening up the laptop again, it was like, I pictured Emma. I pictured Parker. This is who I’m writing this for. It’s like who, so whether if it’s a, if it’s a book for your church, if it’s a book for leaders, you know, whoever that’s for is like have a very clear picture in your mind, who your audience is and and imagine faces that represent those people.

Scott Landry — Because I think it, to me at least, is it makes it less about the content and it brings the heart into it. And I think that I hope that and is what engages people more than, because I’m not a writer. But I hope my heart comes through the words that are on the pages. And I think that’s just because I had those two beautiful kids in mind.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. That’s a great, that’s a great tip. I, the, that idea of focusing who is the person. And I worked at a church that had a very robust practice kind of sermon practice process. And that’s one of the things, one of the questions we would often ask is like, who are you preaching this to? And I loved, cause our lead guy, he would get like really specific. It wouldn’t be like, it’s not like, well, I’m generally thinking 33 year old, you know, guys that are married. He’d be like, Scott Landry…

Scott Landry — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …you know, like he would like, it’s like he would pick out a specific person. He said, I’m hoping that that that’s who I’m thinking about. And that always struck me as like, I think that’s a part of what gave him great kind of power in his communication because it wasn’t this vague idea of like this, some general target. It’s like, no, I’m talking to this person and I want to, I want to communicate in a way that will move them. I think that’s great when you think about from a book point of view.

Rich Birch — Well, I want to encourage people to pick up a copy of the book. But before we get there, any kind of last words about any of this that you want to share? You’ve been so generous with your time today.

Scott Landry — No, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you having me on. And if anybody’s gotten to the end of this podcast and is even considering, you know, getting a copy of the book, I guess my heart for you would be to discover what I discovered the hard way, but I hope that it doesn’t require you to to find out the hard way is that that God truly knows who you truly are. And all he desperately wants is for you to be honest about who he already knows you are. And and then he wants to release that person for the purpose that he has for them. And so I pray that it doesn’t take whoever you are, you losing what I lost to find that. I hope that you will be wiser than I was. Learn, you know, don’t learn from your own mistakes, learn from mine. And, and, and, and find yourself because you’re going to find God there waiting. And I hope that for you and pray that for you.

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s great. So we want to send people to Amazon. Is that the best place that they can pick up copies of this book? Is there anywhere else we want to send them just as we wrap up today’s episode?

Scott Landry — No, yeah, Amazon, the book “The Fight” is there. Can also follow me on Instagram. Keep updates there – @scottmlandry. Yeah, you can see pictures my sneakers. That’s about it.

Rich Birch — It’s great. Thanks so much, Scott. Appreciate you being here.

Scott Landry — Thank you, Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Sarah Hooley, Executive Pastor at City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Founded in 2016 by Lead Pastor Chris Freeman, City Church is a young, rapidly growing, intentionally multi-ethnic, multi-economic, and multi-generational church. Since moving from a setup/teardown environment into their renovated 60,000-square-foot facility, the church has experienced explosive growth—reaching 2,500–2,600 weekly attendees, baptizing nearly 500 people this year, and engaging a high percentage of unchurched and new-to-faith individuals.

Is your church reaching people far from Jesus but struggling to disciple them well? Are you navigating the complexities that come with rapid growth? Tune in as Sarah shares how City Church reaches, welcomes, disciples, and mobilizes people who often arrive with little to no church background.

To learn more about City Church, visit forthecity.com, or follow them on social media at @citychurchfw.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe

Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward.

Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help.

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. This is going to be a jam-packed episode. You’re going to want to buckle up. We’re talking about a lot of stuff today that applies to your church that I know will be super helpful. I’m excited to be talking to Sarah Hooley. She is the executive pastor at a church called City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. This is a church you should be tracking with. If you’re not, they were founded in 2016 by lead pastor Chris Freeman. It’s a diverse church in a city that is for the city with multi-ethnic, multi-economic, multi-generational community. It’s really, God’s doing some incredible things here, and you’re going to want to track along with that. And we’ve got Sarah on the show to help us. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Hooley — Thank you so much for having me. It is a privilege to be joining you today.

Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be wonderful. I’m really looking forward to learning from you. Why don’t you tell us a little bit of the City Church story, kind of set up. Tell us a little bit about it. What’s going on Give us a sense of what’s happening at City Church.

Sarah Hooley — Yeah, so we are a nine-year-old church plant. We were a set-up, teardown church for the last eight or so years ah seven and a half. We’ve move we bought a grocery store in 2020.

Rich Birch — Good year.

Sarah Hooley — Great time to buy a building, and and it was being used as a warehouse. And so we bought it and then the pandemic happened and we’re like, well, we still have a warehouse occupying the space. Maybe at some point it’ll become a church. We don’t know. And then it was just about a couple years ago that we then started a capital campaign and went to develop the the space. It’s 60,000 square feet. We developed about 40,000 square feet of it for our church.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Sarah Hooley — I’m thinking, man, that’s going to, we’ll be set for a good long time. And we are out of space already.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Sarah Hooley — And so and we moved from two services to three. And now we’re just, excuse me, trying to figure out what do we do? um God has just been moving in incredible ways. Like we have from the from the start been very intentional about wanting to be a multi-ethnic, multi-economic, multi-generational church. And where we planted has been very intentional.

Sarah Hooley — So even where we were for set up and tear down, and we were right in the heart of the city where it was the most ethnically diverse within Fort Wayne. So Fort Wayne is roughly about 66% white in the city as a whole, but in our neighborhood specifically, it’s more 40% African-American, 20% white, 20-ish percent Hispanic. And so it is a much more racially diverse area.

Rich Birch — So good.

Sarah Hooley — And that is has been very intentional from the beginning. And so our location now, is it’s just been beautiful to see how God has really drawn people from every background. And, you know anyone who’s been a part of a multi-ethnic church knows that that that’s a messy process. It’s It is incredible to see, though, the the beauty and of what God can do when we are are not just attending a church together, but really in community with one another, and with people who come from radically different backgrounds um and and how that can really bring about a lot of healing in our stories and in our in our relationships.

Rich Birch — So good.

Sarah Hooley — And so um we have grown since moving into the building, we were about 800 people um when we were set-up/teardown. And then once we moved into the building, it has just been um exponential growth. So we we have grown very quickly and just tried to keep up with all of it.

Sarah Hooley — One of the things that I’ve i’ve just loved about City Church is it’s very intentional about um reaching those who don’t know Jesus. And so the that really comes from our our lead pastor, from Pastor Chris Freeman, his heart for the lost. So a lot of our growth has not been transfer growth. It’s not just people moving from church to church, but really those who’ve never set foot in a church, those who are, or who ah are really far from Jesus. It’s been a long time.

Sarah Hooley — And the greatest evidence of that, that we’ve seen is we are on track to have 500 baptisms this year.

Rich Birch — Wow. Oh my goodness.

Sarah Hooley — That has just blown our minds.

Rich Birch — That’s incredible.

Sarah Hooley — Like we, We had to move up ah the frequency of our baptisms to every six weeks because we just could not keep up with all of the people who wanted to get baptized.

Rich Birch — We’re not baptizing enough. That’s amazing. Wow. That’s incredible.

Sarah Hooley — But we we’re about 430 right now, and I have over 70 people registered for this next upcoming one in December.

Sarah Hooley — So it has just it has been a wild ride…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Sarah Hooley — …of um seeing God move in such phenomenal ways, and and just try to be faithful along the way. How do we steward these people well?

Rich Birch — So good.

Sarah Hooley — How do we continue to point them to Jesus? How do we encourage them to grow in their faith and to take those next steps of what it looks like to follow him? So it’s…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. There’s a ton we could we could unpack there, and maybe we’ll have you on in the future to talk. I um, you know, we’ve said it in the past on the podcast, every zip code in the country is more diverse today than it was 10 years ago, and 10 years from now, it will be more diverse, and our churches need to continue to progress towards reflecting the kingdom of God and being, as you’re saying, multi-ethnic.

Rich Birch — And so there’s a ton we could we could learn from you on that. Maybe we’ll have you back in the future to talk about that. Cause I, that is definitely a thing I think we all can, can learn from, but I’d love to kind of key in on what you were talking there about. Hey, your church has a heart for, which I think lots of churches do have a heart for reaching people, who don’t know Jesus, but it’s like actually happening at your church, ah which is incredible.

Rich Birch — So what were some early signs, you know, that you realize, or what are some of the signs that you realize, oh, this is actually happening. Like we’re actually reaching people. Baptism is one of them. Can you think of any other signs that were like, oh, we we’re reaching people who, who this is a brand new thing for them?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah. So I mean, baptism was definitely a big sign of like, wow, these are, these are people who are, are new to following Jesus and taking that, that first step. And in our conversations with people who are preparing to be baptized, um, that, that was a part. It’s so funny, just, just this last week, uh, somebody posted on their Facebook page, uh, City Church choir is better than the club for real.

Rich Birch — I love it. Love it. That’s great.

Sarah Hooley — And they didn’t, like we don’t have, we didn’t have a choir. It’s our worship team, but like they don’t even know the words for what that worship team is.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yeah. They don’t know the words yet.

Sarah Hooley — And, and the comments after that, like it, it truly was showing that we, we are drawing and attracting people who, who like, they’ve they’ve never really considered going to church. And then in our conversations with people, as they’ve realized, like, man, I do want this. I want to follow this Jesus. Like, this makes sense. This is incredible. But you just can’t assume anything.

Rich Birch — No.

Sarah Hooley — Like, they there’s no foundational understanding of what that looks like. There’s no, and and I think even just, there’s no understanding of even like what some sins are. Like, there’s just not like, oh, I didn’t even, not even realizing that like, that’s not a good idea to continue. So we’ve had, we have people who are like, yes, I want to follow Jesus. And then they’re still sleeping with their girlfriend. They’re still, you know, like it’s and it’s like…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. 100%.

Sarah Hooley — …oh, I didn’t, I didn’t even know…

Rich Birch — The thing.

Sarah Hooley — …that that was something that you shouldn’t do.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Sarah Hooley — And so really being able to, to come alongside and say, okay, man, we have to go back to the basics. We can’t assume anything. It’s gonna…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Sarah Hooley — And it really has set the tone, even in just the way that Chris preaches and and all of our our pastors preach that we don’t make assumptions when we’re talking about scripture.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Sarah Hooley — So allowing um there not to be any barriers or or anything that would create a place where people would feel like, man, like everybody else knows what he’s talking about, but I don’t. And so like just the way that you set things up and explain things and introduce people. So you don’t don’t just assume that everybody knows who Joseph is from the Old Testament.

Rich Birch — 100%. Right.

Sarah Hooley — Like you have to be like, Hey, this is this guy. And so I think that that has led us to like, Chris does such a great job on Sunday mornings, but man, there’s, there’s so much more that we need to do as far as for people to truly learn what it means to follow Jesus when they don’t have much of a background. Like it’s going to take some more intentional discipleship that, um that we do. So that that has been really a process of of recognition that we even people who are coming on a Sunday…

Rich Birch — Right.

Sarah Hooley — …they’re excited about Jesus, there’s still some gaps there.

Rich Birch — Sure. I’d love to talk. We’re going to get into the discipleship question, but I just want to pause just before we get there. And so um what do you think God’s using to help your church engaged? You know, in different circles of the Christian world, it’s called different things. Unchurched people, seekers, people who follow Jesus, people new to the faith, you know. So the teaching, I agree. That’s like a best practice around, um ah you know, taking time to explain. It takes three sentences to explain instead of just saying, well, you all know Joseph.

Sarah Hooley — Yeah.

Rich Birch — He’s an example, which is just lazy preaching. You should take a few sentences, explain it. But what else is God using you think to, ah you know, to help your church reach so many unchurched people?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah, you know, so we we really have, the the teaching is significant.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sarah Hooley — And that’s one of the things that I have just been blown away. So I grew up as a pastor’s kid, went to Bible college, went to seminary, like…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sarah Hooley — …biblical, like good, solid biblical teaching is such a huge priority for me.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sarah Hooley — And the thing that I think has been unique is that Chris has a way of communicating with those who have never been in church and and helping them to to see a clear picture of who Jesus is and challenging the deep disciples. Those who’ve been following Jesus their whole life. And yet, man…

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good.

Sarah Hooley — …the way that he brings light to scripture and, and even just like points out some, like, this is what it means to live this out.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Sarah Hooley — That has made such a big difference. And then, so we really have had this, this drawing of, of those who have been followers…

Rich Birch — So good.

Sarah Hooley — …who then can invest in those who are new believers. But also we have, and it and it is beautiful, like a really dynamic worship time that is incredible. And one of the things that’s unique about it is it’s because we’re multi-ethnic, you can’t just go in one kind of genre of music, like it really is a blend.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.

Sarah Hooley — And so there’s something about it that um it it’s not all of anyone’s preferences, but you’re like, oh man, like I love this part of it. And then, well, this part’s new and different, but okay, I can I can get on board with it. And so I think those that combination, um but there’s there’s another factor and that’s, that really is in the culture that’s been set in how we are a welcoming church.

Sarah Hooley — And so our connections director is somebody who came to faith in our church. So she she started following Jesus, like she had no church background whatsoever, started following Jesus, um started really growing in her discipleship. Her name is Victoria. And it it has been such a beautiful thing to see how she has has such a heart for Jesus and heart for others. And so she’s continued to invest in her team…

Rich Birch — It’s great.

Sarah Hooley — …in like, how do we make people feel welcome from the beginning? How do we not just say hello and let them walk by, but like really see people?

Sarah Hooley — And she has really invested in her connection team on like, how is that an opportunity for discipleship? And so one of the things is you can you can join our greet team. You can join our parking lot team. You can join our coffee team and not be a believer. But the heart behind it is like, is you’re still investigating who Jesus is. Like we hope that you’re rubbing shoulders with someone who is following after him.

Rich Birch — Yeah, make some friends, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Hooley — And you have those conversations and that relationship has grown um through that. And you’re you get a picture of of who Jesus is.

Rich Birch — So good.

Sarah Hooley — And so um like there there it’s just this multifaceted thing that has happened um that really is like when you come, you’re like man, I want to be a part of this. And so we have like, that’s the crazy thing. We have people who are not followers of Jesus inviting their friends,

Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%. That’s great.

Sarah Hooley — …like new church is better than the club for real.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s great.

Sarah Hooley — Like they’re inviting their friends to come and…

Rich Birch — So good.

Sarah Hooley — …and be a part of this because there’s just something happening here.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Okay, let’s talk about the discipleship issue. So ah you didn’t say this, I said it, but one of the problems with the church in general is a lot of our discipleship systems assume a fairly high level of actually understanding of scripture. And our church shares a similar heartbeat. We’ll normally see, one of the things a new year guest come through in our church. We don’t ask them a lot, but one of the questions we do ask is for them to describe their kind of faith background before they came. And we’re consistently above 50%. It’s usually 60, 75% of people would describe themselves as something that we would label as unchurched.

Rich Birch — And so I understand the discipleship problem. In lots of churches it just you just assume people know stuff and they grow closer to Jesus, but that’s not the case. So how are you helping move people towards being fully discipled followers of Jesus? What does that look like for City Church?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah, so we we do, we have loved using Alpha for for those who really still are in that questioning phase and like they’re not even sure. And like they may not, they might may not feel comfortable coming to City Church, but they would come to somebody’s house and walk through Alpha. So that’s been really great for those who are kind of trying to still discover who Jesus is.

Sarah Hooley — But for specific discipleship, because we were realizing, man, there’s just some some gaps here, Chris decided to launch a 15-week discipleship course for young men specifically.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Sarah Hooley — And we really saw, like we are we are a pretty young church. I mean, always have been, but that there was some some pretty serious gaps in and not only like, what does it mean to follow Jesus, but even what does it mean like what does it mean to be a godly man? And so wanting to have, to bring alongside some intentional mentors and people who can invest in these young men.

Sarah Hooley — So um he invited people, but it was a very high accountability, high expectation sort of class. They meet at 6 a.m. on Thursday mornings.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Wow.

Sarah Hooley — That is not something everybody wants to sign up for. It was…

Rich Birch — Yeah, no, not every guy wants to do that. I can say that.

Sarah Hooley — No, it is it is a huge sacrifice.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sarah Hooley — And he said, this is going to require a lot of you.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sarah Hooley — And they actually have a crazy. Like if you are, if anyone is late, any single person is late, even five seconds, the whole group does pushups together…

Rich Birch — Oh, no. Yeah. Okay, that’s cool.

Sarah Hooley — …and not in a shaming way, but in a like, Hey, we’re inviting you to something great.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sarah Hooley — And part of, part of following Jesus is is it’s going to need incorporate discipline in your life. And so we have, we are called to have discipline. And so we’re going to really keep you accountable to this.

Sarah Hooley — And so he does um he he talks through, like what does it mean to be a godly man? Talks about identity, talks about discipline, talks about integrity, purity, humility, servanthood. So he’ll do a ah teaching, and then they break off into groups with two leaders. So each group usually has about six six guys who are participants and two leaders who are older men in the church who have um that Chris has identified and recruited. And then they have a small group time.

Sarah Hooley — So It has been so incredible to see how God is working, not only through his teaching, but really through that accountability…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Sarah Hooley — …and like digging into what does this look like in our lives? And, and then those leaders are, are following up with them and encouraging them throughout the week. They, they do, they, they challenge, they come up with their own challenges. And as like, okay, we’re going to memorize this passage of scripture. And then they, then they like, all right, how did you, did you memorize this? Most of these guys have never memorized scripture in their lives.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Sarah Hooley — And so, even though some of those practices have been really incredible. And he he calls the class Act Like Men. And it really is so, and he makes it very clear, this is not about talking about what what is the difference between a man and a woman. This is talking about what’s the man and a boy.

Sarah Hooley — Like we are calling you to be godly men and intentionally calling you up to to live out as godly men, not selfish boys. And so that, that has been beautiful. There was about, um, I think he had about 60 participants the first time he he ran it…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Sarah Hooley — …with 25 leaders. And then this next, um, this heat currently they’re they’re walking through it right now and there’s 100 guys and 30 leaders.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Sarah Hooley — It also requires, and they have to pay $100 and that goes right back into them. Like it’s for some resources that they are given. But again, it gives that like, hey, this is a high threshold. This isn’t just a casual thing.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sarah Hooley — They also cannot miss more than three sessions. If they do, they are asked to step away and if they can join again in a future time.

Rich Birch — Take it again or whatever. Yeah.

Sarah Hooley — So super high high high…

Rich Birch — And is it the idea that it’s going to rotate like kind of a couple seasons a year or something like that? How what what’s the thinking on that?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Like how often are you going to run it or what’s that? What’s that look like?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah. So, so what we’ve done so far is, um, the men’s course is in the fall. And then, um, after last, last fall, the first time that, that Chris did it, there was such an out, like lot of the wives and the girlfriends and the people who were just connected with these guys, they were like, man, this has been so incredible. Like, what do you have for women? Like, when are we going to have our, our course?

Sarah Hooley — And so that really sparked. And I was like, I’m too busy to do this right now, but like, I can’t not do it. So, um my kids, pastor, and I developed Be Bold Women’s, which was a complimentary course for women. And so the men is in the fall and the women starts in January. And we go through the spring and do kind of a similar, we follow a lot of the same topics, although we did choose some different ones, a couple of specific one…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Sarah Hooley — …that we felt really convicted that, like we do one of our lessons is on emotions and like, what is a healthy, godly way to approach and process, and how are emotions a part of our life? We also talk about community. So there’s just a couple of different topics that we walk through with the women.

Sarah Hooley — We also incorporated women’s conference as a part of it that we then opened up to the rest of the church. So everyone in the church could come to the conference. We had our own people speaking at it, our own worship team leading worship. And we had about 300 women at this conference.

Rich Birch — Wow. That’s great.

Sarah Hooley — And it was just, it was a great start, like jumpstart to our time together in the course, but then also with our larger community.

Rich Birch — There’s a lot there I’d love to ask questions about. So my impression of City Church just looking in, don’t know your church well, but follow online. And, you know, I don’t get the vibe from you guys that there’s like, I don’t know, like an overly machismo kind of like, you know, ah like in a negative way. Like, you know, you know you know what I mean? There’s some churches out there. You’re like, okay, they’re like a little too much into the man/woman thing.

Sarah Hooley — Uh-huh.

Rich Birch — And, and I don’t know how to say that nicely and not like step on people’s toes. I don’t get that vibe from you guys, but this, but you’ve, you’ve obviously taken, taken a gendered approach. Can you unpack that a little bit? Help me understand how is that it’s obviously been super helpful. So, but just kind of talk through that issue. Help me understand that. What’s that look like for you guys?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we really saw their there just was a need to have those intentional conversations um really of older men investing in younger men, and older women investing in younger women.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good.

Sarah Hooley — And so um there are things that, there are conversations that you can have when it’s just men, that you add one woman into that mix and it’s gonna change some of those conversations.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Sarah Hooley — And some of the things that, especially when it comes to kind of the harder accountability parts of of those conversations, it’s going it’s just gonna look differently. If if somebody’s trying to impress somebody else, like that’s going to be an issue.

Sarah Hooley — But I think, I think really, even though we’re not a overly like machismo, there’s, that’s still a part of our culture.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Sarah Hooley — And so I think Chris really wanted to be sure that he, he tackled that kind of toxic masculinity approach.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sarah Hooley — And, and like, that is not biblical masculinity.

Rich Birch — No.

Sarah Hooley — Like this, this idea of, you know, I’m the man. And we’re, but like, that’s not what, and and so really continuing to call them back to that, that being a true man is not the world’s version of, of power and money and having the beautiful wife or girlfriend. It really is about following Jesus’ example. He is the greatest example of what a godly man looks like.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Sarah Hooley — So what does that look like?

Rich Birch — Yeah. What’s that look like?

Sarah Hooley — So that means humility and servanthood and sacrifice and laying down your life for others. And so how do we live that out?

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.

Sarah Hooley — And then for our women, it it it has been so powerful to be able to have those those deep conversations and um and challenging them to live this out.

Sarah Hooley — And you know when you have people who are coming from, like they they don’t have um maybe those older women or men in their lives who have been investing in them and showing them what it looks like to follow Jesus or to live this out. It’s still brand new. And so there’s still, there’s some some space to have those questions be brought.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.

Sarah Hooley — And um like, why shouldn’t I return to this abusive boyfriend?

Rich Birch — Right. Yep.

Sarah Hooley — Why shouldn’t I like, so like being able to deal with some of those really hard conversations in a really healthy way that that comes back to scripture and comes back to like, this is what God wants for you.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Sarah Hooley — And um and it’s and it’s hard, like following Jesus is hard. Like there is nothing easy about that…

Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Yeah.

Sarah Hooley — But it’s so worth it.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Sarah Hooley — And I think that being able to put that in front of people. But you know, those are two courses that we have. We have lots of small groups and mid-sized groups and groups that are that are mixed gender. And like there’s some beautiful things from that, too. These two courses specifically are just a little bit unique in in their approach.

Rich Birch — That’s good. So as you’ve kind of watched this roll through as an XP, you know, go people go through these experiences, what what kind of changes have you seen in the broader church culture? Like, has there, you know, what have you seen that like, oh, hey, there’s something happening here that that seems to be having a positive impact or negative, I’m assuming there’s positive, that’s been kind of impacting the church culture. Talk to me about that.

Sarah Hooley — Yeah, I I you really start to see um just that that growth, the idea that this is, you know, that that view of discipleship that’s a long obedience in the same direction. That is what we are are experiencing. You know, with so many people who are new believers, there are some great breakthrough moments and that is worth celebrating, but it is a long process. And so um I think really being able to come alongside and and watch watch those who are like, they were, they’re excited about Jesus. They’re pumped. They’re going lift their hands and worship. They’re going to be like, join the team. But to go beyond that to, okay, what does this actually look like in my life? And to see them begin to make changes in how they actually live that out. um That they’re not just, okay, this is my Sunday thing. And then I go and I do my weekly thing, um but truly changing. And that like that’s profound. It’s profound to see God work in such powerful ways.

Sarah Hooley — And again, it’s not it’s never overnight, like there’s overnight breakthroughs, but it’s always a process. And I think that that like watching the the development of these courses is like there’s gonna be things you’re confronting in week one. And then you might still be confronting in week 10. You might still be confronting in week 15. But there’s there’s growth. And there’s um it doesn’t mean that they’ve been able to overcome everything, but you you can see that that change in them. And that draws people.

Sarah Hooley — And so I think that we we’ve been able so to so clearly see even just the growth in the number of guys who who joined the course the first time and then the growth in the second second time through that people are hearing about it and being like, I want to be a part of this.

Sarah Hooley — Like I saw what it did in my friend’s life. And like, that’s like, I know it’s 6am, but it’s worth it. I’m going to make the sacrifice. I’m going to be a part of it. And so I think that that that kind of invitation to discipleship where you see what the effect it’s having. And then that brings others in. And they’re like, I want what he has.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Sarah Hooley — Like, I, I’ve, I know who Jesus is, but I, Idon’t want it just to be a yeah, I know who Jesus is. I want to actually know Jesus.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. Friends that are listening in. I one of the one of the changes I for sure have seen in people who are arriving at our churches is, this is a problem when you’ve been at this long enough, like decades ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, people did kind of just stumble into church. Like that actually did happen, but that’s not happening today.

Rich Birch — People, when they arrive, they’re they’re arriving with real questions and are looking for, they’re not looking for us, they’re not looking for our ideas, they want Jesus and they wanna know what that looks like. So I love this this idea of calling people to something That is a little more, you know, that’s, it’s not just the like, well, we’re going to to make it super easy. That’s not what it’s about.

Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Rich Birch — I think makes a lot of sense. Well, I want to pivot to it just a totally different conversation. As we were getting ready for this, one of the things that caught my attention, and you’re a humble leader, Jesus has formed your life. So like you didn’t lead off with like your attendance numbers and all that. You talked about growth, but you didn’t really go there. What what are you averaging right now? Attendance wise, where are you at?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we’re about 2,500 to 2,600 right now.

Rich Birch — Okay. And how many full-time staff do you have as as a team?

Sarah Hooley — Oh, we have seven full-time staff. Now, we do have some part-time roles that are high level…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Sarah Hooley — …but we are a skeleton staff.

Rich Birch — Yes. Okay. So to put that in context, like, I, this is why want to hear more about this. How, how are you doing that? So to put make some context that people are listening in, um there’s a kind of a well kind of oiled benchmark out there that says churches should really shoot for 1 to 75 attendees and staff. And, you know, ah really great churches are maybe one to a hundred. Like that would be amazing if you could get that. I think the math on you guys is one to like 350 or something like that.

Sarah Hooley — Yep.

Rich Birch — Even if it’s like, okay, those those other equivalents, even if they end up being say you have another three full-time people in all those part-time. So you’re 10 full-time equivalents. That’s still like one to 250. So like, this is a significant lesson, friends. We need to learn from.

Rich Birch — So it’s like, I really just want to say, talk. Like what systems and philosophies make that happen?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah.

Rich Birch — How do you, you know, how are you able to make that happen? Talk us through that.

Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Well, we are trying to hire. So there are some roles that we definitely know that we need.

Rich Birch — Yes. You got a long ways to go though. Even if you doubled your staff, you still would be like one to 125, which is still very high. You know, that’s great.

Sarah Hooley — Yeah. And this has been one of the unique things about being a multi-ethnic church and a multi-ethnic church that’s reaching new believers. The the the financial support, it takes longer. Like financial discipleship, it’s a process. And and in a um you know within our community, there’s a significant like where we our church specifically is, there’s a significant number of people who are below the poverty line. And so that just means that where our budget is not going to be as large.

Sarah Hooley — But so like we have always, and I think part of it is going from that church plant model to even having an established church. Like we’ve always had to be scrappy. Like you always have had to, like I started as a volunteer and I wanted to do a women’s conference. And then someone came and said, I heard that you’re leading the women’s ministry. And I was like, what? Like I didn’t, I just wanted to lead this women’s conference.

Sarah Hooley — But just the the way that, um you know, we have continued to to philosophically want to equip the body to be the ministers. That it’s not just, oh, we can just hire somebody to do that. But for every staff person being so intentional about choosing staff members who can be equippers, who are not looking to just do ministry, but who are looking to equip others to do the ministry. And so those who can develop and be leaders of leaders. And that that really has been a part of our heart um in the beginning out of necessity. But also as we’ve continued to grow, um we’ve found there’s just been incredible fruit, because it calls the whole church body into being a part of what’s going on.

Sarah Hooley — And so there is nothing more powerful and significant than saying like, yeah, I am I am a significant like participant, I am leading within this church in in a significant way that creates such buy-in. And so like that has really made a difference in in, I think, our church culture and and in just people so staying with us and saying like, man, there’s there’s there’s something happening here. I wanna be a part of it. And um being identified in like, given the opportunity to lead in those ways. And so um we are very, we are slow to hire because we’re kind of a unique, um we have a unique church culture and unique church body…

Rich Birch — For sure.

Sarah Hooley — …and we want our staff to reflect our church body and to to have buy-in. So I would, so the majority of our staff really are people who have come from the church body itself. So we we only have had very few outside hires um because we know that they understand who we are, they they understand kind of what we’ve been called to do.

Sarah Hooley — And so that has been the most, like we have one full-time kids pastor…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Sarah Hooley — …for 400 children. And she has an associate who’s also very high level and she’s incredible too. Um, but they have done such an incredible job of identifying, okay, within our kids ministry, within our volunteers, who are those people who, who can lead others and who have a heart for developing others.

Sarah Hooley — And so, um, so they’ve broken down the different areas and they have leads over each of those individual areas where they’re doing some of the scheduling. So like identifying those administrative skills, like people who have people skills as well as administrative skills.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Sarah Hooley — But so the role of our of our kids pastor is to you know set the vision and invest in our leaders. And then they are then the ones who are are working through some of those logistics of what it looks like when it comes to staffing or when it comes to volunteers um and being fully like, oh, it’s a whole lot of children. We have a lot of kids.

Rich Birch — Yes, that’s amazing. I’d I’d love to double click on some of that there. So this idea of leaders of leaders does not surprise me that, um you know, I it’s like one of these when I heard this, I’m like, I don’t even know anything about this. But I know that you the only way you get to that kind of ratio is you’ve empowered volunteers to actually lead things.

Rich Birch — There’s a humbling thing you could do. Church leaders that are listening in do it. Do a giant org chart. Spend two hours and do a giant org chart on a whiteboard. Like literally draw out who is who leads who all the way down to every role in the church and then circle the people that are staff. And oftentimes what you find is there are no leaders of leaders that are volunteers. And they’re just that that’s a that’s a key distinction. How do we get and and how do we keep our staff being Ephesians 4 leaders, people who equip the saints to do the work?

Sarah Hooley — Yes.

Rich Birch — So give me some of the telltale signs that you that you see in volunteers that, hey, this person is could lead at a high level. And what does the equipping look like? How are you helping them step into that?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we really do view leadership as discipleship. And so, um, so even for our volunteers, we want to identify people, for them to step into a leadership role like that, that relationship with Jesus, that that’s strong connection to to him is is key.

Sarah Hooley — So like that is first and for foremost across across all of our leadership teams. So even though I mentioned earlier that we have some of our serve teams that you can join the team and not be a believer, but for the people who are leading those people, we want them to be following Jesus.

Sarah Hooley — And then just looking for those who also love people and have that heart for like, I want to have the conversations that, you know, something is is going on in someone’s life and they’re having a hard time, I’m going to follow up with them during the week. And so um so that love for Jesus, that love for people in some of these roles, it it is some administrative ability. Like, can you handle scheduling people? Like there’s there’s just like, are you able to complete some of those things, some of the doing aspects of ministry?

Sarah Hooley — But even within our within our high level leader volunteer leaders, like they’re actually then finding other volunteers who are are doing some of those roles as well. So I think that that has been a process. So it’s looking at who who do we have in front of us? Like who are the people who are like bought in? They see the mission. They’re they’re passionate about what we’re doing. They care about what we’re doing. um And then inviting them into that next step of leadership.

Sarah Hooley — A lot of times it’s we kind of give them a chance to kind of test it out first before just throwing them to the wolves so that they can kind of see like like shadowing somebody who already is currently doing something like that to get their feet wet, to kind of understand the the scope of the role. We don’t ever want to ask somebody to to step into a role that they aren’t, that they’re like, I don’t have the capacity for this. And so, but there’s there’s lots of development still along the way of like conversations of like, of of our actual staff members, checking in with them and helping them to like navigate problems and helping them to to think through like how to process, um you know, that they even are invited to bring feedback of like, hey, here are some things that we’re seeing, like what’s a way that we can then approach that together? So like really they they have a great voice into into how things are being run.

Rich Birch — That’s good. One of the tensions that happens in a lot of churches is staff, our staff start to think like the kind of important people are people who have full-time staff that report to them. There’s like this insidious pull towards, I’m going to build my little kingdom. And like this is really common, like lots of churches struggle with that. It can be difficult.

Rich Birch — How are you developing your, particularly the the culture with your staff team to ensure that they stay focused on leading volunteers rather than, you know, just hiring people? Like, let’s just hire somebody. How do we, how do how are you what are you doing there? Beyond the like, well, we can’t afford it. There’s got to be something else you’re doing to try to help them, you know, develop that.

Sarah Hooley — Yeah, feeling missed out on the budget is really helpful.

Rich Birch — Well, because, well, and yeah, but the but my pushback would be friendly pushback as as one leader to another is like that resource things are going to get sorted out. And it’s going to come to a time where you have resources to be able to do that. And it could be very tempting to say, let’s just go quadruple the size of our staff. So how are you ensuring that the culture isn’t going to do that?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah. And so much of that is through through our coaching, through the way that we talk about this. This is something like we have these calibrating conversations all the time of of this is who we are and this is what we’re about. And this is what it looks like to lead here. That we um and and that And to be totally candid, like that has been a challenge where we had a staff person and as we grew, um could not make that transition of from doing to leading others and and delegating.

Sarah Hooley — And so like that that is a challenge of, and and just thinking like, oh man, all we need to do is just add more staff and then I would be okay. And instead of really recognizing like, no, our our heart behind this is inviting the church to be the church. That that, Letting them know that that priesthood of all believers, like we are all called um to do ministry.

Sarah Hooley — Ministry is not just for those who have a degree or those who have a title. Like we are called into ministry. And so keeping that before our our leaders and our staff so that they are keeping it before the the people that they’re calling into these volunteer leader roles.

Sarah Hooley — And I will say like those who are the volunteers, like they, they’re excited. They’re excited about like, man, like you just invited me into this position. Like you’ve asked, you’ve seen, you saw something in me and asked me to, um to lead in this way and to serve in this way. And it’s, it’s a privilege to do that. But it is also like continuing to put that before us. Like we we are investing in our people.

Sarah Hooley — Now, some of our future staff members might come from those who are volunteer leaders. And like and like that’s a beautiful thing because we’re like, man, I already know, I can see how you would operate in this role and how you would fit on our team and how you would keep how you you do get the culture and what what we’re trying to do. And I think that that’s that’s really a beautiful thing.

Sarah Hooley — But it is it is a lot of conversation, a lot of coaching, and just a reminder of like, and I think part of it too is is realizing like, we can’t do everything. And so being very intentional to not be overly programmed. To be very clear about, we’re going do these things, like these very simple.

Rich Birch — Right.

Sarah Hooley — And so that’s where it’s like, it seems so simple. It seems so basic, but we’re going do these simple, basic things and do them faithfully. And um and then, yeah, see what God does.

Rich Birch — Trust God for the results. Yeah, that’s fantastic. Yeah. And listen, you know it makes sense that you’ll end up hiring some people because it’s like that’s a little bit of a crazy ah you know ratio. And you know I think that’ll be that’ll be a challenge ahead to keep that focused as you add those people. And it’s not unreasonable to say to your team like, oh, yeah, like we probably should add a few people.

Rich Birch — But to still champion at the end of the day, I think that’s like there’s a key piece there that you mentioned. It’s like this idea of championing the people who have been able to make that transition. And I’ve like, I got us like hey, ah it’s about developing leaders and I want to make that happen. And I know that might be messy and there’s other problems with that, but that’s you know that’s good.

Rich Birch — It’s been a fantastic conversation. For people who are listening in today who might feel that kind of like, oh my goodness, we’re under-resourced, we’re you know are outnumbered, we don’t have enough people. Help us think through, kind of talk to us a little bit from an even mindset or how we lead point of view to kind of lead from abundance rather than from scarcity. Because a part of what I don’t hear you saying is like, oh, woe is me.

Rich Birch — Like you’re like, no, this is just what God’s called us to in this season. We’re going to make it happen. And God’s doing a great thing. So try to encourage us, yeah help us think that through.

Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Well, I would, I mean, I would first of all say you’re not alone. So if you feel, if you do feel overwhelmed and outnumbered and under-resourced, like you’re not alone. And so I think that that is is helpful to be like, man, I’m not. And I think that’s where like even having podcasts like this, where you’re able to hear from others, we’re like, oh, man, OK, we’re in this together. We are all doing the mission that God has called us to. And there are challenges that come with that. And and that can be really discouraging and hard. And yet, like, I think when we can have that kind of. loaves and fishes mindset of like the disciples, they could not feed those people. Like they could not fit fill all the needs that were before them. But Jesus could.

Sarah Hooley — And so if we can be faithful to say, okay, God, what do we have? What do we have? Like, what do we have in front of us? And how do we use that for your glory? And what what does that look like? What what are the things that we need to like have that laser focus on um so that we can then continue to see what you are going to do with with what we bring.

Sarah Hooley — And and I think that there is that reliance on God to um to say like, you’re the one who does the work. Like this is not, and I think that helps us to like, it takes away that that pride and also that just overwhelming feeling feeling of sometimes failure when it’s, it’s not, when we realize that it’s not all on me…

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.

Sarah Hooley — …like this is not like my responsibility is to be faithful and continuing to be faithful, to follow what God has called me to do. And that means, I mean, that means working hard. That means best practices. That means learning from others, but I am not responsible for the the end result. So how do I just be intentional and faithful with what God has given me?

Sarah Hooley — And, and, and I think too, I think it’s really important to, to find others who are also in the journey with you.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Sarah Hooley — That you can, that not that you just get together and complain, but that you can really come alongside each other and encourage one another. And that, That has been one of the most significant things that I have found in in stepping into this role. I got connected with a women executive pastor cohort of women all over the country who are leading in this in similar roles.

Sarah Hooley — And being able to just ask questions of other church leaders, being able to say, will you pray for me? Like, I’m going through something really difficult right now. Will pray for me? That has encouraged me personally to be able to keep pressing on when it does feel overwhelming or it does feel like, man, the the task is too great for me. To be reminded and to have other pastors in like my corner and in my ear saying, remember who God is and remember what he’s called you to.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Sarah Hooley — And so I think that that is just, it’s, if we can keep that in view and that in, in that mindset in view, that that God is so much greater than the most difficult person at your church who is louder than all of the others. And, um and God is greater than the the greatest problems that you are facing and the, the difficulties that you’re walking through. And, and so like, I think just looking for those, those things.

Rich Birch — So good. Sarah, this has been such a helpful conversation. I really appreciate you being here today and investing in us. And it’s fantastic, super encouraging and lots of good nuggets in there. I got pages of notes here. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?

Sarah Hooley — Yeah. We I mean we’re on um Instagram and Facebook. We’re forthecity.com is our church website. We are not on TikTok yet. We’re not that cool. I don’t know. Someday we’ll we’ll get there.

Rich Birch — Nice. That’s fun.

Sarah Hooley — But yeah, that’s that’s the primary way.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today.

Sarah Hooley — Thank you so much.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe, a firm that partners with churches across the country to design and build facilities that amplify ministry impact. With more than 15 years of experience in church architecture, project management, and ministry leadership, Aaron and his team help churches navigate complex building challenges while staying focused on mission.

Is your church facing growing pains—crowded lobbies, full parking lots, or overwhelmed kids’ spaces—but unsure how to move forward? Aaron shares practical insights on how to approach facility planning strategically, align vision with budget, and avoid the costly mistakes that can slow down momentum.

To learn more about Risepointe’s work helping churches align facilities with mission, visit risepointe.com/unseminary or follow Risepointe on Instagram for inspiration and project stories.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church

Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it!

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Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, across the country, we keep hearing about churches that are growing and we’re seeing swelling attendance and that’s good. Some of that is like a platinum problem though. It generates other issues that we have to think about. And so what what I did was pull on a friend of mine, Aaron Stanski, he’s the founder and CEO of Risepointe. He’s got 15 plus years of church design, leadership and project management and experience.

Rich Birch — If you don’t know Risepointe, where have you been? You’re living under a rock. They’re church architects and designers. They have years of experience working with churches like yours, schools and nonprofits, and they offer a wide range wide variety of services, including architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, and so much more. Aaron is, I like Aaron not just because he actually has got incredible skills. His team’s got incredible skills, but he really actually wants to help churches like you. And so Aaron, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I’m glad to be here, Rich.

Rich Birch — It’s going to be good. Give give people, you’ve been on a couple of times…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and but give us again, for folks that haven’t heard, the Aaron Stanski, you know, a couple bullet points.

Aaron Stanski — Sure.

Rich Birch — What did I miss? What do you want to fill in the picture?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, ah you know the quick story is grew up in ministry. My dad was a pastor growing up, planted a we planted a church in Boston when I was a kid. Went to school for engineering, worked for Harley Davidson Motorcycles, did big projects, project management and stuff for them for a while. And then felt called to ministry.

Aaron Stanski — So left Harley Davidson, was on staff with Cru for a couple years doing college ministry before I jumped on staff at a fast growing multi-site church here in Chicago. So loved that, loved being part of that ministry team. And then, of course, we went through a big building project. So got to roll up my sleeves on the on the church staff side of things and hire architects and engineers and AV consultants and really kind of combine my my engineering mind and my ministry heart. And so absolutely love that process. And so, yeah, I’ve been helping churches now for the last 15, 16 years. It’s been an absolute blast.

Rich Birch — So good. Well, the the kind of person I want to have in mind today, and so friends, if if you’re listening in, if this sounds a little bit like you, you’re going to want to pay close attention. So I’m thinking about that church, you know, the leader that looks around, they maybe have got, maybe they got two services.

Rich Birch — They’re looking around and they’re seeing, ooh, they feel like maybe their growth ah is starting to create some pinch points. Maybe it’s in kids. Maybe it’s in adults. Maybe it’s their lobby. It’s they look around and they’re like, man, I just I feel like our facility might be holding us back a little bit. um And because I do bump into this in churches all the time.

Aaron Stanski — Sure.

Rich Birch — And there’s like, there can be like a certain amount of anxiety and fear around, gosh, when do I, what do I do? So when you talk to pastors, what do you know notice as one of the kind of most common point of confusion when it comes to starting or pulling the trigger, moving on with a building project, expansion project, try to improve things. Where are we getting this wrong?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think ah like one, the whole process itself can just be completely overwhelming.

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — Like immediately you’re confronted with, ah oh my goodness, like what’s the right solution? What is the, ah what is the town or the, you know, the jurisdiction going to allow us to do? What is this all going to cost? Where are we going to do church in the meantime if we’re having to fix this building or add on to it?

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Aaron Stanski — I mean, immediately all of these questions start to kind of well up and it can become ah really overwhelming for a lot of churches.

Rich Birch — So good. So when when we step back, is there any one of those that you think in particular is like a piece of the puzzle that is the most kind of mysterious or is the most um confusing as as you that you bump into regularly with leaders?

Aaron Stanski — I mean, I think the most confusing is probably like, what’s the right solution?

Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.

Aaron Stanski — A lot of times it’s a combination of like, you know, we feel like we’re out of space, so we have to add on. But if we do that, we’re going to have to modify what we already have. And what we have is old, or there’s some maintenance on it that we haven’t gotten around to. And like, what can we do in this space? And so actually the the right solution is is probably one of the most difficult things to kind of imagine for a lot of pastors.

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski —  And, you know, then right behind that is like. What’s it going to cost? Right.

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — I mean, you know, for the last four or five years, we’ve seen a lot of inflation. We’ve seen a lot of different things happening, like with pricing and stuff. And so what used to be a pretty easy calculation for us as churches now, it feels like it’s a lot foggier as far as like what what things are just going to cost.

Rich Birch — Yeah. So I’ve heard church leaders at this this juncture, they start thinking like, okay, like we got to get an architect. Get me the architect, the the person that designed this building 25 years ago. Where are they? Are they still in business? And, you know, we start going down that road. I’m not even really sure what an architect does. Like, I obviously, you you draw things. But, like, help us understand what what is the piece of the puzzle that, like, an architect brings to the table.

Aaron Stanski — Right.

Rich Birch — And I know that’s, like, a subset of what you guys do. Pretend that I’m, like, super dumb because it’s probably not actually worry about pretending too much there. Explain what that is. What is that service? And is that actually what we need at this juncture? Is that the first question? Like, get the architect. Come in here. Explain that whole thing.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, well, I think we have to be careful. Sometimes hiring an architect is like picking up a hammer, right? And for a lot of architects who were, you know, traditionally trained and might have like one sort of, you know, viewpoint of the world. Like their job is to come in and draw something new um that’s going to sort of solve your problem. The challenge with that is a lot of times that architect is just looking for ah one type of solution, ah which is build you something new, add something on.

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — And they’re looking at it very narrowly through the lens of what the solution is going to be.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Aaron Stanski — And a lot of times they’re not, you know, kind of able to kind of step back and take a look at strategically and say, okay, before we start drawing plans and blueprints and some of those sorts of things, let’s really talk about like what’s going really well at your church and how are we going to amplify what you’re already doing well? How are we going to add some, you know, some pieces around it? And then of course, how are we going to fix some of the big, you know, some of the bigger problems?

Aaron Stanski — So an architect technically, right? I mean, it’s a licensed professional. Their job is to lead your organization through the process from the very beginning all the way through the stages of design. Their job is to make sure that the solution is aligned with your with who you are as an organization and your budget. And they’re supposed to help all the way through construction, making sure that it gets built the way that it was designed and and that it gets you know all the questions get answered and that it’s ultimately safe.

Aaron Stanski — So that’s what an architect does. I think the I think the thing that we miss a little bit on the front end is in order for the architect to start, we really need kind of need to know what the scope of the work is and the budget first.

Rich Birch — So good. Okay. Okay. Good.

Aaron Stanski — If we don’t put those two guardrails on the left and the right-hand side, we’re really missing out. The left-hand side should be scope. The right-hand side should be budget. And we should nail those down before we get going into designing.

Rich Birch — Okay. I want to unpack that because I know, I actually texted you recently. Friends, getting you behind the scenes a little bit. I had a friend of mine, they had done exactly what we talked about here. They were like, we went and hired an architect to help with this thing. And they came back with a ginormous number um that was like, I would say a factor, you know, three or four times what I thought. And what do I know? I don’t know anything.

Rich Birch — And I actually think it was these guardrails where they went off off on it. They didn’t start with scope and budget. They started with, hey, here’s a problem, architect – solve it for us. And they came back with this, you know, very incredible initial drawing and all that.

Rich Birch — Talk us through how do we nail down scope and budget from the beginning? Talk us through what does that look like?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, so I would say, ah you know, you want to find a ministry partner who’s going to come in and really kind of help ah flesh out some of those pieces, really understand what’s working well, what’s not working well, what’s missing, where do we have to clarify what it is that we’re doing in order so to sort of establish that. And and there’s ah there’s a lot of great partners out there who can help you do that. But you’re really looking for someone in the building/design/construction space who has experience who has a lot of experience, honestly, with churches and understands what it means to, you know, serve people who’ve been part of your church for 20, 30 years and keep them on mission and disciple them up, as well as welcoming people who are walking into your doors for the very first time.

Aaron Stanski — So at Risepointe, we walk through a process called The Needs Analysis, where we get on site with, you know, a church for an entire day and understand their DNA and really understand what’s working and not working and stuff. And we start with that so that we can sketch out some ideas and some concepts and stuff around what is the what is the scope of work that’s going to solve the problem or fix the lid or add the seats that we need? And what’s the budget that we feel like God’s calling us to spend as a church in order to go do that? And we want to start with that before we jump into full architecture.

Rich Birch — Okay, so sidebar question. Is it possible for someone to help us at this early kind of scoping phase without doing some sort of on-site? Like, can I just call an architect and say, hey, here’s the problem. I need to add a thousand seats. How much is that going to cost? And then they go away and come back with a number. Or, or you know, are is there, yeah, can they do that? Talk us through that.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can. I mean, you can call up Risepointe and I’ll get on the phone with you. The, and, but there’s going to be a range, right?

Rich Birch — Okay.

Aaron Stanski — And I can say like, Hey, here’s the last 10 churches that we’ve done a thousand seat auditoriums at…

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — …and here’s kind of the range and stuff. The problem with shortcutting to that is you miss a lot of things, right? Each jurisdiction is different, like how the civil engineering works, the parking requirements and stuff.

Rich Birch — Right. Good. Yep.

Aaron Stanski — And those really affect the budget. And so we want to understand those first. And the second thing is, I mean, every church that we work with is and incredibly unique in the people that they’re reaching, and the values that those people have and whether they’re de-churched or unchurched and and who they’re running into and and stuff. And so really kind of understanding that context is so important um before we jump into, you know, sort of solution.

Aaron Stanski — But yeah, I mean, since we work with churches all over the country, I mean, if someone called me up, I could probably, I could probably put my thumb in the air and give them a ah swag on what that might cost.

Rich Birch — Yeah. And I would, you know, it’s funny because I’ve, I’ve recommended people have asked me those kinds of questions and I always actually say exactly what, you know, where you led, which is like, you should call my friend Aaron and, but, but what you should do, get on the, do the like free call or whatever, get on the book a time. But I said, you really should do this Needs Analysis thing. Cause the project that you’re facing is always much larger than you think.

Rich Birch — And I would rather people take time, invest the resources upfront and time, frankly, to slow down and say let’s actually understand the question we’re asking before we jump to answers, right? Like what because because we could get this thing wrong and actually that gets to this whole idea of how early is too early. My experience has been people wait too long before they engage with someone like you. They they get into like their third service, fourth service. They’re like, oh gosh, people aren’t going to the fifth service. Maybe we have to figure out how to get more space. Talk us about, you know, what mistakes do we make when we wait too long without engaging with someone like you?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I’d say, you know, the thing to keep in mind is that you’re, if you’re the average church that reaches out to Risepointe, you’re somewhere between two and a half and three years away from having any sort of new space.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Okay.

Aaron Stanski — And that’s on the short end. We have churches who are bringing new space online five years after they’ve reached out to us because they’re, they live in downtown areas…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Aaron Stanski — …very challenging jurisdictions and some things like that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Aaron Stanski — And so when we’re thinking about when is the right time, I think, yeah, earlier is definitely better. But we have to be careful ah that we’re strategically spending dollars even on the front end, you know, so that we, you know, we’re getting out of it what we need.

Aaron Stanski — As leaders, what questions are we asking that we need answers for in order to determine is it the right time to move forward with a building project? Is it a right time to launch a campus or go multi-site or some things like that?

Aaron Stanski — If you wait too long, typically what happens is either we’re we’re rushing through the design process to kind of hit the capital campaign stuff and there’s budget misalignment. All of a sudden we thought it might be this, but now this is the actual budget for what it’s going to work.

Aaron Stanski — And I think when that happens, there starts to be some vision confusion. You know, we’re looking at solutions that we kind of rushed through and it doesn’t feel like we really thought all of those things through. And so I think that’s another one.

Aaron Stanski — And then I just think, you know, there’s there’s some missed ministry opportunities if if we kind of wait too long. I think a lot of times when we’re planning out, here’s the multiple phases of how we develop this campus and expand it. You know, we miss out on opportunities to go get some smaller things done sooner…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — …capture momentum, you you know, fix the welcome center, like invest some dollars in something we know we’re not going to tear down, make it better for guests in a couple months. And we miss out on those things if we don’t have a bigger, more strategic plan.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah, kind of a step back and say, hey, how does this fit into where everything that’s going on?

Rich Birch — What would be kind of double clicking on that? What would be some indicators internally that would say, hey, um you know, these things are happening. I should really reach out to Risepointe. What would be some of the things that you would see as telltale signs that it’s now a time to to kind of take this step?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think if we’re, you know, if we’re really pushing towards our, those max numbers at our primary service, I think that’s a, that’s definitely an early indicator.

Aaron Stanski — A lot of churches just kind of reach out and say, Hey, okay, here’s, here’s kind of where we’re at. Here’s where the math is at. Like, can you look at this like from a, like how much kids area should we have? How much lobby space should we have? And we can run some quick math for them and say, Hey, you don’t have any other lids. You’re looking good. You, you probably have a few more years of growth in you.

Aaron Stanski — So that would be one. You know i think if ah you know we’re starting to talk about ah adding a third or fourth service, it’s probably a little bit too late, but we should probably get on it sooner than later.

Aaron Stanski — And then, you know, one of the, one of the other things too, is just kind of paying attention. It’s easy for us on Sundays to stand on the stage and look out and get a pretty good sense of, are there enough seats? Is there space for me here? And like, we look out and we see some empty chairs.

Aaron Stanski — Keep in mind that when you’re coming in from the back of the auditorium, it’s a lot harder to see some of those empty chairs.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — And so what is the percentage? But the other thing is the things that we’re not seeing when more when we’re on stage on Sunday is we’re not seeing the parking lot. We’re not seeing the early childhood wing that’s basically a it’s a it’s a disaster back there. There’s kids running around like crazy.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Aaron Stanski — And so even if we’re ah even if we have enough seats, like or we’re not at the 80 or 90 percent capacity to our primary service. We need to be looking out at some of these other areas and making sure that there’s not a lid somewhere else.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. In fact, I literally just last weekend said that to a church. I was, you know, I was doing a weekend visit where I was on site and all that stuff. And, and it, to me, it felt like the building, the parking, and the kids, and the main auditorium, they, or the adult auditorium, they just didn’t match. It was like they, the three were out of alignment. And I think they had enough kids, but you know, I don’t know. There was, it’s interesting how that can happen. And you know the lead pastor typically is seeing um only the adult room and not you know not anything else.

Rich Birch — Early on, you know there’s my experience has been and projects that have been a part of that I would rather spend money as personally as a leader. I’m not saying, friends, if you’re listening in, that you need to necessarily do this.

Rich Birch — I would rather spend money on the front end with a designer like you. Because because the joke I’ve made is it’s a lot cheaper to move walls on drawings than it is in in the real world. And I’ve that comes from pain of building stuff…

Aaron Stanski — It’s true. Yeah.

Rich Birch — …of building stuff, and then being literally I opened up a new facility and then stood there with a kids ministry person. And the kids ministry person was like, oh, I didn’t think it was going to look like this. I was like, oh my goodness, what what are you talking about?

Aaron Stanski — Shoot.

Rich Birch — Like, we just opened this new facility. Talk us through, like, what’s an investment on the front end to reach out to someone like you?

Aaron Stanski — Sure.

Rich Birch — How do you help churches see that hiring someone like you can actually save us resources in the long haul? Talk us through that.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, starting out at the beginning and getting really clear about where we’re going and how we’re going to get there, it really helps us, you know, cart and like make sure we don’t overbuild or underbuild.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — It makes sure that like compared to all the other churches that we’re working with all over the country, that we’re in alignment with where the square footage is at and it’s aligned with how you do ministry locally, how you use these spaces seven days a week.

Aaron Stanski — And so it’s it’s really making sure that we’re not overbuilding or underbuilding anywhere because that’s ah you know that’s a huge that’s a huge miss if we do that. And that’s probably one of the biggest cost savings.

Aaron Stanski — The other thing is you know during you know during sort of that season of vision and master planning and when we’re talking to our folks about what God’s doing at the church and we’re telling stories of life change, like we’re really kind of laying out a vision for what God is calling us to do as a ministry. And people just naturally have questions around like, like, how is this going to help? And and how is this actually going to help us reach my lost coworker, my lost neighbor?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — And, and so I think, you know, spending the time to do that, really translating sort of the mission and vision into physical space needs and producing some of those renderings that accompany that story. I mean, that’s just a really critical part.

Rich Birch — Okay, so let’s double click on that. That’s that I feel like I have been caught in this situation where I get I get like, it’s the hammer and nail thing you you say. Like, I’m I’m pretty sure I know what the solution is.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Like, let’s go do this. And I like that what you’re saying is like, hey, we need to take a step back and like actually think through how does this fit in our vision and how’s that all? How do you actually do that? How do you help a leadership team discern what the problem is that they’re really needing to solve, or should be solving, rather than just let’s build a bigger box. Or, I know! We just need 25 new parking spots. Like how do we not jump too quickly to that? What’s that look like?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, it looks like, you know, spending time.

Rich Birch — Good.

And and, really getting to know them and what makes them unique. Like we have a fantastic set of tools that we use at Risepointe to like really talk about, you know, let’s talk about, uh, outside the walls, right? Like who, who are we called to reach? And, and what does it mean to do ministry in this place that God has uniquely put your church in the geographic area?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — And let’s talk about the tension between this side of town and that side of town. And let’s, you know, let’s wrestle with, you know, some of those issues. And then let’s, and then let’s talk about like, like, man, who are we as a church on our best day? And what does it feel like when we’re like living up to our full potential?

Aaron Stanski — And then we even get into some of the things around like, man, what are what are some of the strategic drivers? What’s driving more people hearing about Jesus? What’s working really well? What do you see as opportunities or things that where if you had the right leader or finances that you’d be able to you know, accomplish even more of your mission.

Aaron Stanski — And so by starting there and then starting to work down towards, okay, where is your facility aligned with that with that exercise and where is it misaligned? Okay, let’s unpack that a little bit. And then without getting into ah the solution yet, I want to meet like individually with each you know ministry leader…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — …talk about what how check-in works and all of those things.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — And so it’s really sort of this almost like a 360 review of what’s happening between the mission and vision God’s given us, and how are our facilities helping or hindering that mission and vision.

Aaron Stanski — And then it just comes down to budget. And so, okay, here are the possible solutions. Here’s what roughly what some of those things are going to cost. And then it’s going to the, going to God in prayer and saying, okay, what are you calling us to do? What are based on these options and trying to figure it out?

Rich Birch — I want I want to come back to the budget question in a second. But I’ve I think I probably have stole this off you. I have said to multiple church leaders that like our buildings were built, there was like a philosophical underpinning of the the buildings that we were built with. There was a ministry model that they were built on.

Aaron Stanski — Sure. Yeah.

Rich Birch — And then there’s been a lag between when we made those decisions, we’ve we built them. Now we’ve been using them for X number of years. And our ministry model may no longer be the same as the building, or probably isn’t actually the same as when the building was built.

Rich Birch — What’s your sense on how long that lag time is kind of between the, they they you know, we built something. If we built something more than 10 years ago, you know we probably want to readdress or look at our facilities afresh and say does this actually meet the needs of…

Aaron Stanski — Sure.

Rich Birch — Because I feel like so many of us are in like the the cramped shoes that just don’t quite fit they work but they don’t quite fitWhat do you think that lag time is?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, the lag time is getting shorter and shorter.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Aaron Stanski — It used to be, you know, it probably used to be 40 or 50 years…

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — …you know, without major ministry model shifts and stuff. Obviously, you know, Willow Creek, North Point, you know, coming onto of the scene in the in the late 90s and stuff really shifted. We have churches all the way up into the 2000s, even into the 2010s that sort of copied the model of the Willow Creeks and some of those things. And I think we’re seeing, you know, we’re seeing the model shifting a lot faster now.

Rich Birch — Interesting.

Aaron Stanski — I’d say, you know, you know, we’re probably in a faster 10 to 20 year cycle, something like that. But I think we’re coming out of the, you know, the, you know, that model of Willow Creek and North Point and stuff. And we’re, we’re moving into a new season. And it’s kind of exciting for us.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — I mean, we get to, we get to sit on the front edge of all of that. Churches like in fantastic places, being creative, reaching, you know, people for Christ. And so it’s just interesting to kind of observe some of those things and, um and observe what’s working really well and, and where it we can improve, you know?

Rich Birch — Yeah. You’re baiting me. What are those things that you’ve seen that have shifted? There’s got to be, or is that the magic? We got to call Aaron to find out.

Aaron Stanski — No, you don’t have to call Aaron. No, I mean, the thing, I mean, like, you know, I heard someone share this with me recently, right? I mean, every Netflix account homepage is different for every person, all billion subscribers or whatever that they have.

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — They’re individually tailored to to those individuals. And I know that because when I had a bunch of seventh grade boys spend the night at my house, like my algorithm got so messed up on my Netflix account last weekend.

Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.

Aaron Stanski — But I think there is a shift away from you know some of the bigger, more institutional types of look and feel and trying to get down to, okay, how are we engaging one-on-one with people who are walking in and where they’re at.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — How do we, you know, instead of preach a sermon at them, how do we hear their story? And what does it look like for us to hear their story in in various places, whether that’s a welcome center, whether that’s, ah you know, side by side in the pew, whether that’s in sort of a first steps class. And so there’s a shift on that side of things…

Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s interesting.

Aaron Stanski — …just like as we look at the next generation and how we engage and reach the next generation.

Rich Birch — Okay, I want to loop back on the money question. So for folks that don’t know, a part of what I do is actually help churches with that. And don’t really talk about it publicly, but I do. And, you know, there is this interesting tension that churches often come to this. It’s like we think we’re different than our ourselves.

Rich Birch — And that if I was going to go build a new house, I would have to start with, well, how much income do I have? And like, what can the, you know, what can the, you know, what what would the what would the bank give me from a mortgage point of view? Like I start with reality around my finances. But so many churches start with, let’s build this giant thing. And it’s totally disconnected from the from what we could actually afford to either raise or carry long-term.

Rich Birch — How much variance can a church bring to a design? Like if they upfront are defining, Hey, like we can afford probably 5 million. I know I’ve got $35 million dollars in dreams or maybe not. That’s, that’s too crazy. I got $15 million dollars in dreams. Is it possible for me to, to actually get that into a tighter box? Help us understand how do we do that? How do we on the front end be realistic with our finances as we’re doing this design thing?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, I think we have to with open hands, we have to hold out the, you know, the dreams, the vision, you know, the stuff that God’s given us. And we have to prayerfully sort of go through that exercise and say, okay, ah but how much risk do I want to introduce into the organization, like via debt?

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — What what is God actually calling us to do with those things? And we have to be creative in how we and and how we get across the finish line. I think when I when I hear sometimes a senior pastor sharing with me his $35 million dollars vision, Rich…

Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes.

Aaron Stanski — …what I immediately try to do is say, okay, talk to me about what it is about that $35 million dollar thing that’s resonating with you.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — And so even though he’s describing something that’s $35 million, dollars and as an architect, I might get really excited about drawing $35 million dollars worth of stuff.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Aaron Stanski — If he actually can’t afford it and can’t raise it, he’s actually not going to go do it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — So I need to go back to that vision and say, okay, what are the pieces in there that are from God, that are ah that are aligned with the mission that his church has and stuff? And I need to contextualize that. And then as an architect, as a designer, I have to turn around and say, okay, with my guardrails in place of budget and scope, how do I express those things…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — …in the $5 million dollars that God has entrusted our church with? And so there’s going to be a lot of difficult decisions along the way. We’re going to have to prioritize some things. And some other things might have to go on the back burner. But that’s the process that we want to help churches walk through um to to get them to that point where they’re walking into a space for the first time and going, oh, man, this feels like us. Like this is this is who God wants us to be in our community. And I’m so excited about doing ministry in this new space.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So it’s it’s not, from what I hear you saying, it’s not unreasonable on the front end to be like, hey, we should actually bring, like, be clear on this is this is what we think we can actually raise. This is that what we think we can carry. We think we could do a project of X, whatever. And that needs to be early on in the discussion rather than we’re disappointed on the back end. Oh my goodness, we got this this big number and we don’t know what to do with it.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I like to be doing it simultaneously. I like to be doing the Needs Analysis and working through, okay, here’s the eight different project options. You can relocate and spend $35 million. You can add on. You can you can do this. All right, here’s your here’s your four options, $10, $8, $6, $4 million dollars And at the same time, I like to encourage churches to like, okay, go talk to someone like yourself…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Aaron Stanski — …and say, okay, what do we think we could raise if we did a capital campaign? How much debt do we currently have? How do our elders feel about us you know borrowing some money if it if it makes a bigger impact on the project? Because if we can bring those two things together and pray through it and get clarity from God about what he’s asking us to do, then I can go ah help draw buildings and blueprints and things like that. Rich, you can help them raise some money and they and we can you know we can go through that process.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, it’s great. And you know, my experience has been every one of those steps, friends, is, it’s a lot of work. It’s, it’s like a, it’s a faith ah stretching experience. There are late, late nights staring at the ceiling, but every one of those I’ve been a part of, literally 100% of them have been transformative in the life of the church. You know, when they, when you look back, you’re like, wow, that was an inflection point. I am so glad we went through that. It wasn’t this like we did that and I was like, man, that wasn’t such so good in the end. It was really was amazing.

Rich Birch — Well, there’s a resource that you’ve provided. It’s called 10 Things to Get ah Right Before You Build. Talk to us about this resource and then and then where can where can we want to make sure people get this. Tell us tell us a little bit about this.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, like with, you know, church, hundreds of churches calling us, you know, every year, asking a lot of the questions that we’ve talked about today. Like we tried to distill down what are the most common things the churches are like, okay, pause real quick. I got to go do something real fast before we decide that we can sort of move forward. And so some of these things are what happens like while you’re talking to Risepointe and some of these things might be before. But I think it’s just kind of a helpful reminder and ah a thoughtful list to kind of work through.

Aaron Stanski — And so if that’s helpful at all, or if that’s interesting at all, um you can just go to risepointe.com/unseminary. And a little ah little landing page will pop up there. There’s two things you can do on that page. The first one is to just give us your name and your email there and sign up and get that 10 things to download.

Aaron Stanski — I also threw another button on there this morning in case you’re like, hey, that sounds great, but I’ve got I’ve got a specific question I have about our building. Or like, I actually really need to talk to you guys about what our options are. And so I put another button down there at the bottom. If you want to schedule a call with myself or one of our architects, we’d love to hop on the phone with you. No charge for that. 30 minutes. Just kind of talk through where you’re at, what some of your questions are and see if we might be able to help. So ah once again, that’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And you can get all that, all that stuff right there.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And friends, I’ve had multiple friends in ministry who have engaged with with Aaron across the entire spectrum. The like free 30 minute thing all the way up through, you know, the kind of full deal, help get a whole project out the door. And and just so happy with the work that Risepointe does. And just has been transformative for their churches. So you get a hearty endorsement from me. You really should do that. Again, that’s just risepointe.com/unseminary. You can pick this up. It is a helpful little PDF, and the schedule call is a great thing.

Rich Birch — Well, Aaron, I appreciate you being here today.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — If people want to track with you guys or if they’re anywhere else online, obviously risepointe.com. We want to send them to anywhere else online. We want to we want to send them to.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can always, uh, you know, follow us on the Insta or whatever you want to do there.

Rich Birch — Nice. Love it.

Aaron Stanski — If you’re into like, you know, cool pictures of like steel being erected, ah or, uh, kids ministry stuff or pictures and stuff, we’re trying to share a little bit more info there. But yeah, I mean, or just our website and, uh, yeah, stay connected.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. Thanks for being here and have a good day, buddy.

Aaron Stanski — All right, you too. Bye.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tensley Almand, President and CEO of Atlanta Mission, the largest and longest-running provider of services for people experiencing homelessness in the Atlanta metro area. Founded in 1938 as a soup kitchen during the Great Depression, Atlanta Mission now operates four campuses, serving over 800 men, women, and children nightly through programs that provide housing, recovery support, and Christ-centered transformation.

How do you lead through complexity while staying true to your calling? Tensley shares leadership lessons from his transition from church ministry to leading a $20 million nonprofit—insights that apply to every pastor or church leader navigating growth, complexity, or change.

To learn more about Atlanta Mission, visit atlantamission.org or email to connect or schedule a visit.

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a real honored to have an incredible guest on today’s episode. We’ve got Tensley Almand with us. He is the president and CEO of Atlanta Mission.

Rich Birch — Now, if you don’t know Atlanta Mission, I’m not sure where you’ve been. You really should know. This organization was founded in 1938 as a soup kitchen to feed men who were displaced by the Great Depression. And they just keep chugging along. They do incredible work. They now serve Metro Atlanta’s largest homeless population and bring hope in the face of homelessness, poverty, and addiction.

Rich Birch — Prior to serving at Atlanta Mission, he was in vocational ministry for 20 plus years, the last 12 of those, as we were just saying in the pre-call. He said, felt like he had the the best job in the world, was a lead pastor at Decatur City Church, one of the eight Atlanta City, Atlanta area campuses of North Point Ministries. Tensley, welcome. So glad you’re here.

Tensley Almand — Man, so good to be here. Thanks so much for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation.

Rich Birch — No, this is going to be good. I’m excited. Why don’t you kind of fill in the picture? Tell us a little bit more of your background and tell us a bit more about Atlanta Mission, that kind of thing. Just help set the table.

Tensley Almand — Yeah, so I’m a native Atlantan. I grew up here, born and raised just north of the city. Yeah. Only child. Parents still live north of the city in the same town that I grew up in.