My guest today needs no introduction. Joining me in today's episode is John McWhorter. 

John has a new book called "Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America". This is an excellent book and I highly recommend you to read it.

In this episode, we talk about what "wokeness" is, as John defines it, and whether the woke can be persuaded. We also talk about the progress America has made on race, the extent to which actual racism is still a problem, Robin DiAngelo and White Fragility. Finally, we go on to talk about what a real programme of uplift would look like for Black America.

I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.

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