2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

It’s our 200th Episode!

As per tradition, we visit an iconic Wes Craven movie to celebrate this milestone, and we could think of none better than 1996’s game-changing “Scream”.

Does it hold up after all these years? Listen and find out. And thanks for YOUR loyal listenership and support after all these years. You guys keep this fun for us, which keeps us going and going. Happy 2020!

Episode 200, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  Well, Craig, we have made it. Not only have we made it to the end of the year and a brand new year 2020, but it just so happens that we’ve made it to our 200th episode.

Craig:  It’s insane. I can’t believe we’ve done 200. I didn’t know if we would get past 20.

Todd:  I know. Right? I can’t remember. Man, we’ve I this really puts into perspective just how many movies you see over the course of your life, doesn’t it?

Craig:  Like Yeah. Yeah.

Todd:  If you and I have seen 200 movies once pretty much once a week for the last few years over our lifetimes, how many thousands of movies have we seen?

Craig:  I know. I and I like, I told my parents that we were coming up on the 200th episode. My mom’s like, I didn’t even know there were 200 horror movies. Oh, that’s

Todd:  so cute. Wow. Well, we probably got at least 200 more horror movies we could review and keep this thing going for I don’t know. Yeah. We’ll see. Don’t ask your mom. She won’t have any good ideas for us. Yeah.  When we started out when we started out this podcast, the very first episode we did, was The People Under the Stairs, Wes Craven film. I think we chose it because we were such fans of Wes Craven, but we didn’t wanna do something so obvious and easy right off the bat like Nightmare on Elm Street. Right?

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Yeah. So we chose The People Under the Stairs. We had a really good time doing it. We thought, oh, we’ll just kinda keep doing this while it stays fun. That was our pact that we had with each other. Mhmm. And so here we are. We’re still having fun, and it seems like at every little milestone, I think our 100th episode anyway, we’ve kept up this kind of Wes Craven thing for each of our milestones.  And so it’s getting harder and harder to do a real quality Wes Craven movie for each of these milestones. Right? Or at least 1 that we really wanna do.

Craig:  Right. So this week, we picked music of the heart.

Todd:  Yes. The heartwarming tale. We’re going in a different direction. With our 200th episode, we thought, aren’t you guys sick and tired of horror?

Craig:  Right. We need, like, an inspirational music kind of thing.

Todd:  No. We’re going to romantic comedies. This will become 2 guys and a bouquet of roses. That’s the big announcement we have for you folks. No. What we are gonna say is we’re not gonna promise that for our next milestone, we’re gonna do another Wes Craven movie. So we we decided, at least, at this point, for 200, we would we would just pick 1 of the most iconic ones that we could and the answer is Scream from 1996. You know, we don’t typically do these really popular movies because there’s so much has been said about them already.  Everybody kind of already knows so much about them that we we don’t feel like what we can say about the movie really makes much of a dent in the general conversation. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. But at the same time, this is 1 of the very few horror franchises that we haven’t touched yet.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  So we’re gonna have to get around to it eventually, so we may as well start at the beginning.

Todd:  Well and you wanted to do, like, scream 3 or scream 2.

Craig:  The reason I wanted to do scream 3 is because people usually point to that as being the weakest entry in the franchise, and it’s actually 1 of my favorites. I mean, they lean really heavy into the comedy in scream 3, but I I absolutely love it. So maybe someday we’ll get around to it. But I think that you were right in saying that we should probably, you know, just just go for the original and see where we go from there.

Todd:  Well, I also kinda have this thing where, like, I don’t feel right reviewing a sequel until we’ve done the original. Right? So that’s kinda 1 of my weird hang ups about what we choose to do.

Craig:  I know. Well, you you always say that even though we’ve done it several times. It’s true. But, anyway

Todd:  I’m nothing if not consistent. So I guess I’m nothing. Anyway, enough about our thought processes. This is the 200th episode, and we’re reviewing Scream from 1996. This movie came out when I was a, senior in high school. It was so hot at the time because we really hadn’t seen anything like it. At this time, horror movies were pretty much being written off as direct to video fair. All the Friday 13th movies had kinda been beaten into oblivion.  We had some pretty horrible Nightmare on Elm Street movies even there at the tail end. All these franchises just seem to run out of steam and run out of dollars, and, I think pretty much all of Hollywood was ready to move on. But there’s this guy, who’s a struggling trying to be an actor and or screenwriter, guy named Kevin Williamson, who basically grew up on these slasher movies, really enjoyed them, and, moved to LA a few years before this. Really wanted to make a name for himself, couldn’t really do much acting wise, wrote a script called, at the time, Killing Missus Tingle, which was later turned into teaching missus Tingle, but couldn’t sell it. And so he had this idea, for a movie that would be an homage to all of these slasher movies. He really wanted to see another 1AA good 1. And so his idea was to sort of take these tropes and make a very self aware movie and kinda turn it on its head.

Craig:  I think if I remember correctly, he was asked to do a treatment about a girl who was alone in the house and who was taunted by some menacing killer over the telephone. It was actually inspired. I don’t remember who, saw this story, but there were some actual murders, that this was inspired by.

Todd:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  And so I think that he was asked to do that kind of treatment, which really sounds very much like a stranger calls, which in many ways this movie borrows from heavily. It was titled scary movie, at the time, which the spoofs of this movie would later go on to adopt. But he put it together and, eventually, this is what came of it.

Todd:  I guess he didn’t have a terrible time selling it. At least his agent thought he would have a terrible time selling it. He said it was way too violent, and it would be it would be a tough sell. It went up, like, on a Friday for bids and didn’t get anything. But by Monday, it was a subject of a huge bidding war. And it ended up through all of this, in the hands of the Weinsteins. Bob we Weinstein, I think, is is particularly, was behind this movie. They had the Dimension Films at that time, and it just sort of seemed like that might be the studio, while they paid for it.  And then that might also be the studio that would do it without demanding too many cuts in it. It did take some risks. Right. But then once Wes Craven read it, and he read it several times, was offered it several times, and, turned it down a few times, and finally decided to pick it up when Drew Barrymore signed on. Right. Drew Barrymore read it, and, Todd pick it up when Drew Barrymore signed on. Right. Drew Barrymore read it.  And, she liked it so much, she asked to be in the movie. And so she was cast, and that sort of snowballed into getting Wes Craven involved. And then once Wes Craven was involved, soon everybody was involved, and it became a a big deal.

Craig:  Yeah. And you had talked about how, you know, these, franchises had kind of petered out and people were kind of over it. Wes Craven was over it. He wanted to move away from horror, but I guess he was approached by a young kid, like a tween, at a convention or something who just outright told him that he thought that he was going soft and that he was much cooler when he was making movies like Last House on the Left. And I guess that got to him because then he agreed to do this movie. And this movie is, you know, fairly brutal, but it’s also a comedy. You know, it’s it’s almost weird to be talking about this movie so much later. You know, you said you were a senior in high school, so that must have made me like a junior in high school, I guess.  It seems so long ago, and it’s it’s easy to forget. And probably some of our younger listeners don’t realize what a game changer this movie was. First of all, Wes Craven had kind of shook things up earlier. There were a lot of slasher movies, like, in the seventies, but the antagonists were usually just crazy people, you know, evil people. And then Wes Craven came along with Nightmare in Elm Street and added that supernatural element. And then all of a sudden you had all these supernatural killers like, Pinhead and Candyman. And this kinda shifted it back, to just, you know, bad guys, you know, human bad guys. And this really was the first super meta horror movie where

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  The characters in the movie were very much aware of the horror genre and the expectations and, quote, unquote, rules of the horror genre. And that’s so typical these days, and especially in the decade that followed this movie. So many movies just took that and ran with it. That it just seems like it was always a part of the horror canon, but it wasn’t. I mean, this arguably, A New Nightmare, which came out, I think, 2 years before this, that arguably kind of started the whole meta trend, but this 1 really took off in the mainstream and set that ball rolling. And and I don’t think that the horror industry has really ever been the same since this movie.

Todd:  No. You’re right. And it’s interesting because Kevin Williamson really insisted. And this is actually was a big concern of his when this was going into preproduction and different directors were interested. He said, so many directors read for this, like Robert Rodriguez. Like, all the big guys at the time, the edgy indie people, and everybody saw it as a comedy, as a spoof. And it is on a certain level, but it’s also a scary movie. And he insisted, even to Wes Craig, even Wes Craven himself started out saying, well, it’s a comedy.  It’s a spoof. But Kevin Williamson who was allowed on set, who was allowed to have a lot of influence, during the production actual production shooting of the film said, no no no, man. You’ve gotta make it scary. You’ve gotta play it straight. That’s the way it’s going to work. And I think that is actually what makes us work and what makes it unique because we’ve we’ve actually had rights. We’ve we’ve reviewed as horror spoofs before this. We did student bodies.  That was, like, late seventies film.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  There were a few movies that kind of took horror movies and spoofed them. But this is an actual horror movie, like you say, that takes place in a world of teenagers who like to watch horror movies and are very well aware of the tropes. And so as you’re watching the movie, you’re getting to see some of this play out and you’re also getting to see some of it subverted, which is just a real mind bender for us as an audience member, especially at the time, like you said. Yeah. Now it seems like nothing. But at the time, it was big. So big that, you know, it’s funny going back and watching this because I haven’t watched this a 1000 times. I watched it a lot when I was younger, like, in college, but I haven’t really seen this movie for at least 15 years.  And I remembered there being more discussion in the film about scary movies and what’s a scary movie than there actually is. That’s funny. There’s, like, 1 character in this movie who works at a video store, which would be, like, my dream job at that time.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  He’s sort of the guy who lets everybody know what the rules are of the movie, and he has a very small part to play in this. Mhmm. And the moments where he actually jumps out and gives a little speech about, oh, you never do this and you never say this, and, you know, people are always running upstairs when they should be running downstairs are few and far between. So it’s just really interesting to go back and watch it over 20 years later. Gosh. 25 years later. Right? Yeah. 24 years later.  Yeah. And see it Yeah.

Craig:  That’s crazy.

Todd:  With these fresh eyes.

Craig:  We’re so old.

Todd:  I’m just thinking when you were talking about when you were talking about that guy meeting Wes Craven, I was, like, yeah. Nothing like telling a middle aged guy that he’s not cool anymore to really, like, kick him in his the seat of his pants and make him do something. Right. I can relate to that.

Craig:  I remember being really excited for this when it came out. I mean, I was a big fan of, The Nightmare on Elm Street franchise. That was kind of basically what I knew Wes Craven from at the time. You know, obviously, since then, I’ve gone back and watched. I think maybe I had seen The Hills Have Eyes at that point too, but I don’t even know if I even associated it with him. Wes Craven was Nightmare on Elm Street to me, and I had loved new nightmare. Absolutely loved it, especially after the disappointment of the last couple of movies in that franchise. And I I just thought new nightmare was so smart and scary and cool.  And so I was really excited about this movie, and I was excited because Drew Barrymore was in it. And we grew up with Drew Barrymore.

Todd:  Yeah. I had a crush on her.

Craig:  Oh my god. We all did. Everybody did. She’s and still do. Like, no. She’s amazing. We knew her from when we were little, and she was little and e t. And then we watched her go through all these struggles as a child.  You know, she went through a lot of bad stuff as a kid. But then as a young adult, in her twenties, she really saw this reemergence. And all of a sudden, she was just this really cool chick Craig, and she was super hot, and she was flashing David Letterman on his show.

Todd:  That was awesome.

Craig:  You know, like, she just didn’t play by the rules. She was this really cool chick.

Todd:  She’s the Miley Cyrus of our age.

Craig:  She she kinda was really.

Todd:  A little bit.

Craig:  Well, she she was cooler, but kind of.

Todd:  Right.

Craig:  You know, she pushed boundaries. I and I think that this was completely the filmmakers intention, and I know that I wasn’t the only 1. We thought that this was a Drew Barrymore vehicle. Mhmm. Drew Barrymore was the star of this movie. You know, she was

Todd:  Todd billing

Craig:  heavily featured in all of the advertising front and center on the poster. And we were all super stoked. In fact, Drew Barrymore was offered the lead role. She was offered the role of Sydney. And it was actually her idea. She said, no wait. And, Todd, there’s no sense in trying to avoid spoilers. Everybody’s seen this movie at this point.

Todd:  Yeah. You

Craig:  know, she said, if you kill me off in the very beginning, that is gonna throw everybody off, and nobody is gonna have any idea what to expect from the rest of the movie. And she was absolutely right. And she wasn’t you know, this isn’t the first time this has ever been done. Alfred Hitchcock did it in Psycho, but we, I didn’t see it coming at all. And that first scene, that opening scene, which is about 12 minutes of the movie, just kind of blew me away. And and and from that moment, I was absolutely hooked, and I couldn’t wait to see what they were gonna do next.

Todd:  And it is a brilliant opening scene. And going back and watching it, especially a movie you haven’t seen this long that you know is gonna be dated or that you feel is gonna be dated anyway. And and, you know, we have done some pretty dated nineties horror movies like I Know What You Did Last Summer, which was also written by Kevin Williamson, which we didn’t look on as fondly as we did at that time. I was really worried this movie was gonna be the same for me. And this opening scene is still an amazing piece of writing.

Craig:  It’s fantastic.

Todd:  It is incredible. I mean, you the minute you finish watch it’s like it’s like watching the opening 10 minutes of Pulp Fiction. You know? When you’re done with it, you’re like, this movie is going to be brilliant, and, I have no idea what to expect from here on out. Yep. Drew Barrymore is alone. She’s, well, her name is Casey. Right? Mhmm. She’s at home.  She’s not a babysitting or anything. She’s just about to pop on a scary movie and popping some popcorn with some Jiffy Pop on the stove even though she has a perfectly good working microwave on the back. We won’t go. Whoever uses Jiffy Pop except for camping? Come on. Did you ever use Jiffy Pop at home? Anyway.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, okay.

Todd:  You’re weird, Craig. I guess you like to eat your popcorn out of, like, hot metal.

Clip:  I guess. I don’t know.

Todd:  Yeah. So she’s popping the popcorn on the stove and a guy calls her and goes through a very well structured and believable series of phone calls to her that is increasingly more intense. And the basic gist is he’s he’s terrorizing her, just like you said. Just like, Kevin Williamson was a the movie he was originally supposed to write is this this first 10 minutes.

Clip:  Mhmm.  Who is this?  You tell me your name, I’ll tell you mine.  I don’t think

Todd:  so. What’s

Clip:  that noise? Popcorn. You making popcorn?  Uh-huh.  I only eat popcorn at

Todd:  the movies.

Clip:  Well, I’m getting ready to watch a video.  Really? What?  I’ll do some scary movie.  You like scary movies? Uh-huh. What’s your favorite scary movie?  I don’t know.  You have to have a favorite. What comes to mind?

Todd:  First, she’s a little cautious, but then she lets her guard down. She reveals a little bit more, And then he starts to get threatening. He wants her to play a game. She gets scared. He says he’s gonna if you hang up 1 more time, I’m gonna gut you like a fish or something like that. And, she threatens and says, oh, my boyfriend will be over here if and, and he’s really big and he’s really strong and he plays football, and he’ll beat you up. He says, oh, yeah? Turn on the back porch light. When she turns on the back porch light, there’s her boyfriend bound and gagged with duct tape to a chair, which I guess is, how the Gainesville murderer did it in real life, bound as people in duct tape.  Fun fact. That’s maybe why you see so many people in duct tape in this movie. So, anyway, the game that he wants to play is a little trivia game of scary movies. And he asks her, easy question, and then he asks her what she thinks is going to be an easy question, which is, who is the killer in Friday 13th? And, she gets it wrong. It’s not Jason. It’s Jason’s mother. Sorry. Another spoiler for you.

Craig:  Yeah. You haven’t seen that movie from 1980.

Todd:  For spoiler on the 96th movie, I think we can spoil the original of Friday 13th. Right? Yeah. And so, boyfriend gets slashed, lights go out, and, she gets chased around the house and ends up outside the house. And in this even in this last bit, right, it’s just so heartbreaking that the car Todd her parents’ car is driving up the the road. She can see it. She’s coming out and around the house. You can see the car coming up in the background. It’s just just with an eye shot.  Like, if her parents just happened to be looking over at her Mhmm. They would have seen her. But she’s been cut, and so she can’t talk, and she can’t scream. And she’s this guy is just, yeah, in this costume, this iconic costume, which we’ll probably talk about in a second, chasing after her with a knife and, goes down on her and stabs her pretty brutally in the lawn. And it’s so bold too. Again, because, once again, like, these parents could, at any minute, just turn their head the right way and see this, but instead they walk into the house and they see that the Jiffy Pop is burning on the stove and filling it up with smoke, and they’re calling for her and they can’t find her. And finally, when they go outside, by that point, it’s too late. She’s hanging up by the tree, gutted.

Craig:  The work the worst part to me in that scene well, you know, first of all, we’re we’re rooting for her. We never expected that she would get killed off in first 10 minutes of this movie. She’s the star of the movie. Right? Mhmm. So, you know, she gets stabbed in the chest and, you know, that’s bad, but she’s okay. I I you know, as okay as you can be, and she’s, running. And like you said, she turns, and it’s not even you know, she sees the car coming, but at this point, her parents are walking up to you know, they’re 15 feet away from each other. Like you said, if they had just turned around, and I guess that was kind of a throwback to last house on the left where something very similar happened.  And then Ghostface does get her down on the ground. He stabs she pulls his mask off, of course, we don’t see who it is, and stabs her several more times. But the worst part to me was the mom goes to call the police, But Drew Barrymore, Casey, is still on the line, and she can hear her

Todd:  Oh god.

Craig:  Gasping and crying and saying, mom, that it’s just a nightmare. There was some other movie, I don’t remember what it was called, Sally Field and Kiefer Sutherland were in it. And a similar thing happened where Kiefer Sutherland broke into Sally Field’s house and raped her daughter, and Sally Field heard the whole thing over the phone. And it was just the most horrifying thing, and and this is, so similar. And and then, yeah, when they come out, you know, the dad tells the mom, drive down to the Mackenzie’s, which is a throwback to Halloween. But they they both run outside, and they see her hanging in the tree, and it is so brutal. I mean, she is just bloodied and disemboweled and hanging from the tree. It’s horrible.  And the mom screams, and then it just cuts to black, and we move into the main part of the movie. But, man, I didn’t see this in the theater, but I wish that I would have because I wish that I would have been able to hear the audience’s reaction to that because it was just a gut punch. And Drew Barrymore nailed this scene. I mean, she’s so flirty and cute. And like you said, initially, she’s a little bit irritated with him when he’s on the phone because he keeps calling, and he’s like, I just wanna talk. And she’s like, well, there’s 900 numbers for that, so call somebody else. But, eventually, like you said, she kind of rolls into it. Like, well, fine.  If this guy’s gonna keep calling me, and and she gets kind of flirty and fun. But then when she gets scared, she’s so believably scared, and she’s crying and just terrified. And I read that, in order to get her into that heightened emotional state, Wes Craven would tell her off camera these horrible stories about animal abuse because she’s a big time animal lover and animal activist. And so he would really just mess with her mind to get her, but the performance is just brilliant, and the the scene is, I think, 1 of the best opening scenes ever, period. It’s just virtually perfect.

Todd:  And then

Craig:  we get and then we get into the main movie, and the main movie, I think, is really good. You texted me and said, oh, it still totally stands up, and I agree. It totally stands up. There are some moments of bad writing when it comes to the dialogue, but I almost feel like moving forward into the sequels, they even recognize that and spoofed

Todd:  it

Craig:  to some extent. So, you know, even moving forward with the sequels, they were self aware about their own movie and some of the, maybe, weaknesses. But overall, it’s good. It’s a good suspenseful deal. The first scene is, Sydney Prescott played by Nev Campbell, who was relatively well known at that time. She had done party of 5, which was pretty successful, and she had been in the craft, which wasn’t super mainstream successful, but but did well with teens and kind of in the horror community. So she wasn’t entirely unknown, but not a huge name yet as she would go on to be after this movie. But it opens up on her in her bedroom, and she’s wearing this very chaste nightgown that I can’t imagine any teenage girl ever wearing.  And she’s got her hair up in a ponytail, and she’s very fresh faced. And you know, from the second you see her that this is your sweet, virginal final girl. There’s just no question about it from the beginning. And then her skeezy boyfriend who looks shockingly like Johnny Depp in Nightmare on Elm Street 1 comes crawling in her bedroom window just as Johnny Depp does into Heather Langenkamp’s window in Nightmare on Elm Street 1. And it sets up this relationship where she’s sweet and virginal, and he’s horny and gross and And gross.

Todd:  I mean, he’s really gross, like, through the whole

Craig:  movie. Yeah.

Todd:  I I was watching this with my wife, because she hadn’t seen it in a long time either. And she also was, like, this guy’s just a slimeball. Like, how can you think he’s attractive or interesting or anything but suspicious through this whole movie? And, of course, you know, it’s done that way on purpose, I think. Well, I think at this point, we’re we’re thinking that this guy can’t be the killer because it’s way too obvious. Right? Right. He he’s he’s so close to the family. He’s really shifty and shady. He’s got this greasy hair and these scary, almost evil look to him at times.  Todd doesn’t look like the kind of person you’d want your daughter dating.

Craig:  But all I was gonna say is I think that this is all hindsight. You know, in 1996, I think that this bad boy image was almost romanticized, especially with teen girls.

Todd:  I think you’re right.

Craig:  Looking back on it, yeah, it seems totally gross. Ironically, you know, in the age of me too, we look back at this guy and we’re like, this guy is super gross and, you know, he claims that he’s not pressuring her to have sex, but he totally is just in very passive aggressive ways. And it is all very ironic because 1 could say that this was the birthplace of the me too movement. I mean, this is where Rose McGowan met Harvey Weinstein, whom she well, first of all, to be fair, she has said publicly that the filming of this movie was her most positive filming experience ever. So nothing bad must have happened at the time, but she continued a professional relationship with Harvey Weinstein and eventually claimed that he not only harassed, but raped her. And she was 1 of the and remains 1 of the most outspoken voices of the me Todd movement. And a movie like this where this boyfriend is portrayed in this way just probably would not fly as well today as it did in 1996. Yeah.  And hopefully, that’s a good thing. But looking back on it, yeah, from the beginning. And, again, hindsight is always 2020, but it just seems so obvious who the killers are. Like, they are so shady throughout the whole thing. And not only are they shady through the whole thing, but they keep getting called out. Like, Randy blatantly says it was probably you guys at some point or at several points throughout the movie, and they keep just kind of deflecting.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  But at the same time, they’re giving each other very knowing looks. Like

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  I I’m telling myself through the whole thing, like, how did you not see this plain as day when you saw this in 1990 6? Because it is so obvious. But maybe that’s what they were going for too. Maybe they were trying to play it obvious so that you would think, oh, it must be a red herring because there’s no way they would make it that obvious.

Todd:  Yeah. And I think also I mean, again, we assume you guys know this. They’re both killers, and I think that we were also expecting there to be 1. Right? Yes. We weren’t looking for 2. That that’s kind of the big twist at the end, not just who the killer is, but there there are 2 of them, and that explains so much. You know? It explains why Yeah. A lot of stuff happens in the movie.  So, yeah, I I mean, I don’t think that was in our minds either probably when we were watching this movie, these 2 throwing each other knowing looks. Oh, then they’re both must be involved. Maybe we were just thinking it was a red herring being thrown at us. Or maybe we just weren’t that perceptive or, you know, maybe maybe up until this point, movies horror movies really weren’t making us think this hard. Yeah. That could be a little bit of it too. Because it’s it’s as much a mystery as it is a horror movie as it is, comedy, a spoof, satire.

Craig:  Right. And a lot of the horror movies at this time, mystery wasn’t really so much a part of it. Like, you knew Jason was the killer. You knew Yeah. Freddy was the killer or, you know, whomever it was. I mean, yes, Friday 13th, the original. There was the twist at the end, and and you never knew who the killer was. So it’s not like it was an entirely new concept, and I’m sure that there had been other movies.  In fact, I feel like we did 1 somewhat recently where there, oh, yeah. We just did 1 of the Christmas movies where it turned out that there were 2 killers. So it’s not like this is entirely innovating in that way, but it was still pretty unexpected. And I was surprised. Again, I can’t imagine how now, but

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  I I certainly was at the time.

Todd:  The other thing that is really clever about the script that, again, I had forgotten about it or something is how early on there are all these very casual hints being dropped. It’s never told you outright in the beginning, which, again, is really clever writing, that there’s something kind of odd in Sydney’s past. Right?

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  That she has this odd, like, where’s her mom? And that her friend, Tatum, meets up with her at school, and they’re talking about the murders and and everything went that, that went on the night before because the school’s being cordoned off and and kids are are being eventually, kids are given a curfew.

Clip:  Casey Becca and Steve Orest were killed last night. What? Go away. And we’re not just talking killed. We’re talking a slider movie killed. Ripped open from end to end. Casey Becker, she just texted me in English. Not anymore. So sad.  Her mom and dad found her hanging from a tree, her insides on the outside. Oh, my Todd. Do they know who did it? Fucking clueless. I mean, they’re interrogating the entire school, teachers, students, gym Do you think the school did? They don’t know. I mean, Dylan was saying this is the worst crime they’ve seen in years, even worse than Well, it’s bad.

Todd:  And to divert just a little

Craig:  bit Schools canceled.

Todd:  Schools canceled. Like, again, this movie is a little bit ahead of its time. So much so, in fact, that some people have accused it of inspiring school violence. Mhmm. Because this is was this just before Columbine? Right? This oh, yeah. This was well before Columbine. And, there were people saying that this movie could inspire teenagers to murder people at school. I you know, I guess, again, in hindsight, it’s hard to know why because, I guess, there weren’t a lot of movies made about teenage murderers at that point.  I guess everybody was either supernatural or a crazy man. So this idea that teens were killing each other, at school is probably fairly new. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. But they even addressed this issue in the movie because this issue, you know, has been talked about forever. It’s not like this movie is the first

Todd:  Todd be accused of a yeah.

Craig:  1 character in the movie, it’s towards the end, even says, don’t blame the movies. It’s the movies don’t make people violent. I believe that as well. I don’t think that movies or video games or whatever make people violent or even necessarily inspire violence. I think that people who are capable of perpetrating these kinds of horrific acts, you know, there’s there’s something wrong with them. And I don’t think that it’s the fault of movies or video games or or whatever. No. But it’s interesting to watch this high school dynamic because I teach high school, and high school kids, while they can be very mature and incredibly intelligent, often just lack some of the social tact that adults should have.  And so even even Sydney’s friends are joking around well. And, of course, you find out that it’s the killer, Stu, played by Matthew Lillard, who, some people say that he stole this movie. I think that he is so goofy and over the top. It’s ridiculous, but it works for his character. He and Randy played by Jamie Kennedy, they’re joking around. You know, 2 of their peers who they saw every day were murdered brutally the previous night, and they’re making jokes about it. Mhmm. And that that bothers Sydney because her own mother, we find out, was a victim of violence and murder exactly a year prior.  But they don’t even when they’re called out on it, even when Tatum kind of playfully calls her boyfriend, Stu, out on it, they just don’t get it. They’re like, what? It’s funny. It’s a joke. And and high school kids can be like that. And that’s not a criticism. It’s it’s just a phase that we all go through. I’m sure I was the same way. But, also, you know, that once they find out that there’s this killer and that he dresses in this costume, then high school kids are running around the halls in the costume, like, screaming and stuff, and it’s totally inappropriate, but completely believable.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And so I just thought that they did a good job of capturing that dynamic too. It it was very real to me. I I could imagine standing in the hallways of my high school witnessing these events go down. Because when you’re that age, all of us, not anybody in particular, all of us, when you’re that age, you just don’t quite get it yet.

Todd:  I think you’re right about that. And and, again, I think this is another reason why a movie like this really wouldn’t quite be made today. It wouldn’t be made in the same way. We take this sort of thing a lot more seriously now than we used to. This was kind of a novel thing that was only in the movies, and now we’re sort of faced with these almost monthly incidents where there’s always now there’s always this impending threat of violence at school. It’s just not fun to watch on the screen anymore. So that’s another odd thing, you know, about watching this movie now Yeah. That I don’t think it would be produced.  In fact, by the time Scream 3 came along, they changed the script entirely because of the Columbine murders and things and a lot of this criticism. I think the original treatment for Scream 3 was that 1 of the killers, from 1 of the previous movies was in prison and was was influencing other teens to copycat Todd kind of do his bidding from prison, and that got changed. Mhmm. Yeah. So, it has definitely, arguably influenced culture, and culture has influenced the direction of this franchise over the over the years for sure and the way it was supposed to go. Actually, when Kevin Williamson wrote this, he wrote it, like, in 3 days, which is pretty amazing. Yeah. And then on top of that, he had 2 5 page treatments for numbers 23 because, you know, he was gonna sell a franchise.  Right? And he did. So he did preplan out the sequels to this movie, which is pretty cool as well. And then probably why you like Scream 2 so much. I think it it it did fold in quite well to this movie. But, anyway, so, yeah, to get back into the plot, so there’s all this happening. At the same time, the news media’s jumping in, and we get Courtney Cox, who everybody knew at this time from Friends. Uh-huh. She just played this happy, bubbly character, and she really wanted to play a bitchy bitchy role.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Todd:  And that was a a reason why people were initially reluctant to cast her. But, eventually, she did get cast in this movie, and she’s the annoying reporter who is always on the scene, is always putting her mic in people’s faces. And she gets deflected at the school by Dewey, who is a brother. And I love this dynamic too. It’s so cute. Tatum’s brother, Dewey, is a police officer and he’s not much older than she is. He’s only 25 in the movie Yeah. Played by David Arquette.  And David Arquette plays this character so young and naive. Mhmm. Kind of full of himself, but not quite ready to take on the full responsibility of pushing his authority around.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  It’s just a really interesting character he’s got here.

Clip:  You’re not supposed to be here.

Todd:  I know.

Clip:  I should be in New York covering the Sharon Stone stalker, but who knew? You look awfully young to be a police officer.  I’m 25 years old.  You know, in a demographic study, I proved to be most popular amongst males 11 to 24. I guess I just missed you. Of course, you don’t look a day over 12, except in that upper torso area. Does the force require you to work out? No, ma’am.  Because my boyish good looks, muscle mass has increased my acceptance as a Sears police officer.

Craig:  He’s super cute.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And it’s funny that, David Arquette, who would go on to marry Courtney Cox in real life, they since divorced, but they have a child together and they’re still close. He was offered the role

Todd:  of

Craig:  Billy, and he turned it down and and said that he wanted to play Dewey, who was written as, like, this hunky character. Oh. He wanted to do it, and so they did a little bit of rewriting to make him a little bit more goofy and comedic. And it just seems like a perfect fit. And, you know, for whatever reason, he and Courtney Cox just have really good chemistry together. You know, it just there’s an ease to the way that they interact with 1 another, and I’m sure that that had to do with the fact that they had chemistry off camera too, obviously. And and Courtney Cox is fantastic in this role. Yeah.  I can’t imagine anybody else in this role, and she she had the lobby for it hard. They had offered it to Janine Garofalo who had turned it down. Brooke Shields was in consideration. Elizabeth Berkley auditioned. Courtney Cox really lobbied hard for it, and she got it. And she plays it. She’s such a climber, and she’s such a bitch, and she doesn’t care. The only thing that she’s concerned about is, her own success.  She has found success because she was the reporter who covered the murder trial that resulted from Sydney’s mother’s murder, And that that mythology carries throughout the rest of the whole series. It’s it’s expanded upon, but she covered it. And and what her angle was was that the wrong man had been convicted and that it was Sydney’s fault because Sydney was the main person who had testified against this guy named Cotton, who’s played by Lee Shriver, who you see for about 2 seconds in this movie, but he’s in the sequels too. So right away, that plants some doubt in Sydney, like, well, now here’s this murderer again. Maybe did I and and he’s, you know, he’s already called Sydney at this point and threatened her and, like, attacked her. So she thinks she starts to question herself. You know? Did I finger the wrong guy? And so there’s this inner conflict with her too. There’s just so many a surprising number of levels in this movie.  It’s just smartly written, and the characters have depth and are interesting. And you do want to learn more about them, and you want to spend more time about them, and you care about what happens to them. Even the minor characters like Tatum, who’s just the best friend. She’s just any best friend from any slasher movie ever. But Rose McGowan is cute and charming and sassy and tough, and she’s there for her best friend. But she’s also willing to call her best friend out and say, you know, maybe you were wrong. Sydney doesn’t want to admit even though the whole town believes that her mom was this promiscuous, desperate woman. Sydney doesn’t wanna believe that, but Tatum is kinda like, you know, it kinda seems like it’s true.  You know, like, it they just seem far more like real people than is typical for this kind of movie.

Todd:  It’s very true. There are really no car even though we have some super goofy over the top characters in here, they still feel real. They’ve got depth, and it’s all in the way that they interact with each other, I think, and the backstory that just comes through. And I think that was what was so appealing to us at the time as well is that I, as as a high school slash, you know, 1st year college student, could totally relate to these people and put myself in their place. I think even now, it still holds up for that reason.

Craig:  For the most part. I mean, I would argue that Billy

Todd:  I mean, there are a few.

Craig:  Billy is kind of stereotypical, but it makes sense in the role that he needs to play. He he’s the horny boyfriend or whatever. And the first time that Sydney gets called and attacked, there’s she has a great line where everybody always thinks it’s Randy at first. Because Randy’s the horror movie guy, and they think and he’s also goofy, so they think that he’s messing around. So the first time Ghostface calls her

Clip:  Do you like scary movies, Sydney?  I like that thing you’re doing with your voice, Randy. It’s sexy.

Todd:  What’s your favorite scary movie?

Clip:  Oh, come on. You know I don’t watch that shit. Why not? Too scared? No. No. It’s just, what’s the point? They’re all the same. Some stupid killer stalking some big breasted girl who can’t act, who’s always running up the stairs when she should be going out the front door. It’s insulting.

Craig:  And then, of course, it’s so clever because he attacks, and she goes to try to run out the front door, but it’s locked, so she can’t, so she runs upstairs. It acknowledges and sometimes subverts, but then sometimes also plays right into these common tropes. And it’s so funny. Then Billy shows up after Ghostface disappears, like, immediately after, which is suspicious in and of itself, but he drops a phone. And, of course, this was 1996 when not all of us had cell phones, so, apparently, this was shady enough for, him to get arrested. You know, I have I took so many notes on this, and we’re already, you know, 45 minutes in. There’s no way we can go through everything that happens, but it moves. When I looked at it online, when I when I pulled up the IMDB page, 1 of the first things I usually look at is how long it is.  And it was it’s like an hour and 54. No. An hour and 51 minutes. I’m like, too long. It doesn’t feel that long at all. Something is always happening. It moves really fast. There’s tons of entry.  There’s so much fun stuff going on. Like little cameos, like Linda Blair makes a cameo right after Billy has said, oh, I watched The Exorcist last night. Then in the very next scene, here’s Linda Blair cameoing as a reporter. The Fonz is the principal. Henry Winkler.

Todd:  It’s so crazy.

Craig:  And he’s hilarious. And he you know, he’s almost like you wonder if it could be him for a little while because at the same time, he’s kind of goofy and that over the Todd. Remember, your principal loves you. Then there’s another time when the kids who were playing pranks, ghost face pranks, he has them in his office, and he’s, like, menacing them with these huge scissors.

Todd:  Yeah. He’s really dressing them down.

Craig:  Yeah. Like, you’d think he’s gonna cut their nuts off or something.

Clip:  You make me so sick. Your entire, cat inducing, thieving, whoring generation disgusts me. So 2 of your fellow students just savagely murdered. And this is the way that you show your compassion and sensitivity, Let me show you something. You’re both expelled yet.

Todd:  He’s like the Fonz, you know, now grown up bitching about the younger generation this entire time. He definitely has this duality about him that does make you suspect him for sure.

Craig:  He ends up getting killed, but not before he has an interaction with a janitor in the hallway who is Wes Craven dressed up as Freddy Krueger, and he even calls him Fred. Hilarious.

Todd:  Well, his death was inserted into the script later because Bob wean Weinstein had looked through the script and realized that they were, like, 30 pages, like, half an hour of the movie that had gone by without any deaths. And so, he asked Kevin Williamson to write in another death, and that’s what he put in the death of the principal. Kevin Williamson later said that that actually solved a problem that he had had with the original script, which was, how to get those kids at the party at the end of the movie, how to get most of them out of the house so that the killers could stalk the a few remaining kids in the house. And that gave them a reason to leave was they hear about the principal’s death at this party, and they they leave, like, oh my gosh, we gotta go see, like, they say his his body strung up on the football yard. And so a bunch of kids leave, leaving just a few in the house, and that’s when sort of the final act takes place.

Craig:  Right. And 1 of my 1 of my favorite scenes also happens in the school. It’s it’s just the next day after Sydney’s been attacked, Billy’s been arrested, but Billy has been cleared because they checked his phone records, and he didn’t make any of those calls. And they’re at school. At some point, Tatum had said to Nev Campbell, you should be excited because you’re right in the middle of this. If someday if they make the movie, who do you think will play you? And Dewey says, I see you as a young

Todd:  Meg Ryan.

Craig:  And Nev Campbell says, my luck. They cast Todd Spelling.

Todd:  And

Craig:  then there’s this scene in the hallway where she runs into Billy for the first time, and they’re standing at the stop the top of the stairwell. And the writing is so bad.

Clip:  I know what? I think it’s time you got over that. I mean, when my mom left my dad, I accepted it. It’s the way it is. She’s not coming back.  Your parents split up. This is not the same thing. Your mom left town. She’s not lying in a coffin somewhere.

Craig:  Okay. Okay.

Clip:  Okay. I’m sorry. It’s it’s a bad analogy. It’s just that I want my girlfriend back.  Sid. I am sorry if my traumatized life is an inconvenience to you and your perfect existence. What? What? Nobody said that. Sid.

Craig:  Stupid. But it is hilarious because in Scream 2, they are making the movie of the first movie’s events, and Tori Spelling is playing Sydney, and they show us this scene word for Todd, shot for shot with Todd Spelling and 1 of the Wilson brothers, Luke Wilson, I think. And it’s it’s the exact same scene, the exact same dialogue, and it’s just as stupid as it was the first time, which makes it look even funnier and even more stupid. It’s just a really clever movie, and the the franchise remained clever, self referential. So impressive. But we better get to the party because the party is, like, the last 45 minutes of the movie.

Todd:  That’s right. It’s basically half of it. Well, basically, everybody’s under a big curfew, and so they just and I think schools close the next day. So they all decide to celebrate, by having a party and, over at Stu’s house. So his parents are gone, I guess, for a while. Everybody’s over there. And what are they doing? They’re watching a scary movie. I think they’re watching Halloween.  Oh, interestingly too, the score for this movie was praised at the time for being pretty unique and original and good for a horror film. And you’ll hear a number of sound effects and sounds from this from the Halloween soundtrack, in this part of the movie at the end. So it’s cool that as the movie is playing on the TV screen, we’re also hearing incorporated into the score little bits and pieces of the Halloween soundtrack that are really iconic. But, yeah, there’s a lot going on at this party. There are a bunch of people sitting around watching the scary movie. At some point in here, not at the beginning, but in the middle, Tatum gets up to go get get some beer into the garage. And she goes to the fridge in the garage, grabs a whole bunch, and the lights go out. When the lights come on, the ghost face killer is standing right there, at the bottom of the steps.  And first, she thinks it’s 1 of I think she thinks it’s Randy, right, playing with her.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Uh-huh. And so she doesn’t take him seriously and walks right up to him until, he pulls out the knife. And then she does a bang up job of defending herself against this guy. She does. Like, you really think she’s actually gonna get away. She is really holding her own. She’s, like, flipping him over her back. She’s throwing bottles at him and broken bottles at him and and goes to run away.  And what does her in is is as he is incapacitated by the door that leads into the garage, she makes a break for the garage door through a, cat, you know, 1 of those pet doors in it. Mhmm. But she can’t quite squeeze through. And, the killer, in the meantime, raises the garage door. And we’ve been all of this has kind of been foreshadowed because we’ve seen that this garage door has some problems, and it raises and raises and raises until it snaps her neck. And I read in the trivia that, actually, Rose McGowan herself was so small that she kept slipping out of this door, and they had to pin her shirt to the inside of it just to keep her in there for this scene.

Craig:  Yeah. And I also read that, she had to be suspended in that thing for so long that when it was all over, she was just covered in bruises. I’m sure it was terribly uncomfortable. I love this scene, and it’s iconic, but at the same time, it’s totally impossible. First of all, 1 of the things that I love about the movie is that the the girls, period, in this movie are not typical slasher girls. They don’t just stand there and scream while somebody kills them. They they they try to get away. They fight.  You know, Rose McGowan fights. Nev Campbell has already been attacked at least once, if not a couple of times, and she always fights and fights hard and gets away. But Tatum fights here. But when you throw beer bottles at somebody, they don’t explode on impact. Like, you don’t throw a beer bottle at somebody’s groin and it explodes upon impact. Yeah. In in in my experience,

Todd:  Well, how many beer bottles have you had thrown at your groin, Craig?

Craig:  Well, I Todd yeah. I don’t know.

Todd:  You were a clown in the circus? Yeah.

Craig:  I’m kind of a chubby guy, so they would just bounce off me. And and the whole garage door thing, it looks great. It’s totally implausible, but it looks great. And I I would go so far as to say that it’s really kind of an iconic scene.

Todd:  It is.

Craig:  It’s a cool death scene.

Todd:  Honestly, I feel like it’s the 1 everybody remembers. It’s the 1 I remember.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah.

Todd:  But you’re right. It it’s never gonna happen. These garage doors can’t lift a person like that, and they have safety mechanisms in place that stop them from, you know it’s it’s never gonna happen. But it looks horrible. Yeah. Like, there is a lingering shot of her as it snaps her neck, and it’s it’s really pretty pretty horrible to watch as are all of the murders in this movie.

Craig:  They’re brutal.

Todd:  1 thing that I like about this film is they’re brutal to the point where they don’t make it entertaining. You know? Mhmm. Even from the beginning, what you were saying about Drew Barrymore, it’s almost heart wrenching. And then to see the stabbing, like, unlike a lot of slasher movies up to this point where the kills are sort of made honestly entertaining or over the top and funny and fun to watch, these are not fun to watch, I think, which is an odd juxtaposition against the comedy of the movie, which is, again, I think why it works so well. At the same time, we forgot to mention that the reporter comes, to the house because she thinks something’s gonna happen, which is also kind of implausible, but whatever. And she’s there with her cameraman, and Dewey is also there because he’s keeping an eye on the house. So those 2, Dewey and the reporter, have this kind of love thing.

Craig:  And yet he’s a cop, but this is a teenage party where they’re all drinking, and he’s like, no. It’s cool. It’s fine. Yeah. And, like, the cop is just hanging out at the teenage party where they’re all drinking. Okay. Yeah.

Todd:  It’s all rather silly. Isn’t it? But she sneaks a a hidden camera into the living room so that it films the towards the sofa as the people are watching the TV. And then after she goes back out to the van with her cameraman, they watch the camera and realize that they got it, but there’s a, like, a 30 second delay Uh-huh. Which is also kind of implausible. But it’s helpful for the plot Right. So that they can see what’s going on in their house, but they’re gonna see it 30 seconds afterwards, which comes into play later. And then it’s cute because she and Dewey are gonna go explore the grounds because 1 of the other red herrings in here is that maybe Sydney’s father, is the murderer.

Craig:  Because they can’t find him. Mhmm.

Todd:  So, they’re gonna go around and look for clues or something, look for his car, and they do find his car, at some point.

Craig:  All these things are going on at the same time. But 1 important thing that happens is Billy shows up at the party. And this is after some people have already left. I I guess he wasn’t supposed to be there because it would upset Sydney or whatever, but he shows up and Stu sends them upstairs to his parents’ bedroom to talk or whatever.

Todd:  Which, by the way, their parents have the smallest bed I’ve ever seen, especially for a couple with a house this huge.

Craig:  Right. Yeah. They sleep on a full size bed in their huge mansion. Okay.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  So they go up there, and they have this ridiculous conversation where basically she’s like, no. You’re right. I need to get over it.

Clip:  But this is life. This isn’t a movie.  Sure it is, Ed. It’s all it’s all a movie. It’s all 1 great big movie. I know you can’t  Why can’t I be a big Ryan movie? Oh, are you gonna get porno?

Craig:  Then they have sex, which, of course, is the big no no. As this is happening, Randy is downstairs with the small group of people who are remaining. They’re still watching horror movies, and this is where he gives his infamous the rules speech.

Clip:  Gotcha.  There are certain rules that 1 must abide by in order to successfully survive a horror movie. For instance, number 1, you can never have sex. Big Momo. Big Momo. Big

Todd:  Momo. Big Momo.

Clip:  Big Momo. Big Momo. Big Momo.  Big Momo. Even impossible. Sex equals death. Okay? Number 2, you can never drink or do drugs. No. This sin backwards. It’s a sin. It’s an extension of number 1.  And number 3, never ever ever under any circumstances say, I’ll be right back, because you won’t be back. I’m getting another beer. You want 1? Yeah. Sure. I’ll be right back. I’ll see you push the laws, and you end up dead. Okay. I’ll see you in the kitchen with a knife.

Craig:  All of which, you know, these things, these rules are being broken all over the place, and people are dying. We know that Sydney’s upstairs losing her virginity at the moment. And, also, you know, as soon as he says you can’t say I’ll be right back, Stu goes to get another beer and says I’ll be right back. But then he comes back, and he’s okay, which foreshadows the fact that he’s okay because he’s the killer. Mhmm. So just clever, clever stuff going on all around. But after right after they have sex, which Sydney doesn’t seem to have been very impressed by.

Todd:  Yeah. Little disappointing for a first time. Yeah.

Craig:  I I guess that there was an alternate scene that you can find online. I didn’t have time to look it up because I was doing my research right before we started this. But apparently, there was an alternate scene at the end when you find out that Billy’s the killer. Sydney shoots him, at the end. And apparently, there’s another scene where at right before she shoots him, she says something like, and this is for having a teeny weeny weeny or something like that. Something ridiculous. But anyway, right after they have sex, she apparently just thought of this. She said, who did you call when you were arrested? He says, I called my dad.  She said, no. You didn’t because the cop called your dad. I saw him. And he said, well, when I tried to call, I didn’t get an answer. And then he says, what am I gonna have to do to prove to you that I’m not a killer? And the killer shows up right behind him, which is an excellent diversion and apparently stabs him and then chases Sydney all around. And it’s this great chase scene through the house. She ends up on the roof. She falls off the roof onto a boat, which apparently makes it okay.  Like, oh, thank Todd that boat was there. She’ll be crying. And she’s running around, and she runs into Gail and makes Gail crash the news van, and Dewey is in the house, and Ghostface is there. There’s all kinds of things. When, Sydney ends up trying to run back into the house, Dewey comes out, and he turns around to reveal that he is stabbed in the back. And he was supposed to be dead. In fact, in any scenes that you see him after the stabbing, he’s visibly not breathing because he was written to be dead. Wes Craven just decided to show him getting loaded into a ambulance conscious at the end so that if they wanted to bring him back for the sequel, they could.  Eventually, she is back in the house. She has just been attacked by Ghostface again in a car. She’s at the door, and Randy and Stu both run up to her, pointing the finger at the other 1, saying he did it. He did it. He’s crazy. He’s lost his mind. And they’re just going on and on, and she’s, like, looking back and forth like she doesn’t know who to believe. And then I just love she’s so smart.  She just says, fuck you both, and closes the door, locks it. Like, that was such the right thing to do. Screw you guys. Yeah. I don’t care.

Todd:  It’s true. It’s true. At this point, her boyfriend comes stumbling down the stairs, apparently not dead after all. Says, oh, they’re outside. And, you know, he’s, like, huffing and puffing against the door and says, please hand me your gun. And she gives him the gun, at which point he opens the door and he lets Stu in. And this is where suddenly we realize that it’s these 2 guys, and they turn on Sydney, and they have this incredible scene in the kitchen. And this is an interesting point in the movie because we’re all waiting for a motive.  Right? Mhmm. Okay. Now we know these 2 guys are in on it. They’re together. And what is the motive? And Kevin Williamson originally didn’t really want a motive here. He thought it would be scarier that they’re just 2 crazy people. Mhmm. They just like killing.  And that’s how the scene starts to play out. In fact, at 1 point, they say this very thing.

Clip:  Yeah. That’s Todd. I think she wants a motive. I don’t really believe in motive, Sid. I mean, did Norman Bates have a motive? No. Did they ever really decide why Hannibal Lecter liked Todd eat people? Don’t think so. See, it’s a lot scarier when there’s no motive, Sid.

Todd:  Then Billy looks at Nav for a minute, kinda scratches his head and says, well, you really need a motive, Which is he’s saying it to us, the audience.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And he just sorta says, well, how about your slut mother who basically screwed my dad and broke our family apart. And so, you know, this is me getting back at you. And then she looks over at Stu and says, what’s your motive? And he’s just like, I don’t know. Peer pressure is is how he explains it. Maybe a little later he says that. But

Craig:  And something that I had never noticed before is that, you know, Billy starts that thing with the whole there is no motive, and then he confesses that there really is. Mhmm. And you can see Stu standing behind him. And I think that this comes as much as a surprise to Stu as it does to Sydney. I don’t think that Stu knew that this was Billy’s real motivation. I don’t think he had any idea.

Todd:  That could be. I I didn’t think of it before. But but, yeah, it’s interesting that there are these 2 sides to it. Right? There’s the guy who clearly doesn’t have a motive. Stu is just kinda whack job.

Craig:  Well, he had a motive to kill Casey.

Todd:  Why?

Craig:  Because she had dumped him for Steve, the boyfriend.

Todd:  Oh, okay.

Craig:  Tatum brings that up very early on. But that’s the only motivated kill, for him. Everything else was just part of their plan. Ultimately, their plan is they have had the dad captive this whole time, and they’re gonna set him up. Now this is also something that I never really thought about, but I had read about it recently before we even decided to do this. While they are explaining what’s going on and what’s going to happen, there’s some really interesting vibes between Billy and Stu. Stu comes up behind Billy and, like, drapes his arms around him and, like, puts his chin on his shoulder and is looking at him almost longingly. And now, you know, all these years later, people are throwing out these theories.  Was there some kind of gay thing going on with these guys? Whether it be overt or whether it be latent or just suggested or whatever. Now Kevin Williamson is gay, not that that means anything, but if you watch that scene and just take it into consideration, and I’m not suggesting that was the intention, I have no idea. It really doesn’t fit with the rest of the narrative, except for that it might explain why Stu was so willing to go along with Billy’s plan. And he’s even referred to as Billy’s lap dog at some time.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Neve Campbell refers to Billy as a pansy little mama’s boy at some point. I think that you would have to be reading a lot into it, but it’s interesting to at least consider.

Todd:  I guess it’s a level that could be there.

Craig:  Rewatch that scene.

Todd:  Yeah. I think I will. The only other thing I would say is though Stu’s kinda hanging on everybody in this movie. It just seems to be part of his physicality, you know, that he’s just Fair enough.

Craig:  Fair enough.

Todd:  So it that didn’t strike me as odd that he came up behind him and, you know, it just seemed more dramatic, like, he was trying to get in Casey’s face from behind him than it seemed to me like they were embracing in any way. But yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s an interesting take. I didn’t even actually, I didn’t even think about that.

Craig:  They think they’ve got everything planned out, but things start to

Todd:  Fall apart. It’s so nuts because and and I again, this is probably the second thing I remember about the movie the most. Maybe everybody would say this, you know, not this number 1, that garage door killing scene. And number 2, when these guys, in order to cover their tracks, need to start injuring each other. Once again, watching it this time, III guess I remembered it differently. I remembered it more as the give and take that first Billy stabs Stu and it really hurts him and it’s kind of funny actually. It’s played a little bit for laughs because Stu’s a funny guy and he’s like Mhmm. Oh, my Todd, man.  It really hurt. Whatever. Now it’s my turn and he takes the knife and Billy’s like now, you know, you’re gonna do it to the side. He’s like, oh, yeah. I remember, you know, like, I’m gonna get you back, and he stabs him in the side. Then Billy gets it again, and he’s gotta go with Stu a couple more times. It seems a little excessive. He was doing a little bit much.  And for a fleeting moment, you kinda wonder, is he trying to do Stu in?

Craig:  I think he was. Watching it this time, I think he was. Yeah. I think that he planned for Stu to die.

Todd:  I think so too because Stu is, like, in real pain. He’s doubling over and he’s like, he says some lines that, you know, we used to repeat for years after this, like,

Clip:  I’m feeling a little woozy

Craig:  here. Yeah.

Todd:  Stuff like that. So it gets kind of funny, but it’s still really brutal and and violent. And then Stu turns around, to get the gun and apparently this was an ad lib line, Houston, we have a problem here. And he Billy’s like, what? And he turns around. There’s the gun is missing And, their back is to the kitchen now as they’re trying to figure out what happened to the gun when Courtney Cox’s character comes in. Right?

Clip:  Mhmm.

Todd:  And aims it at them and shoots is it Billy in the shoulder?

Craig:  She doesn’t shoot anybody. She tries Todd.

Todd:  Oh, but the safety’s on.

Craig:  The safety’s on. And so Billy kicks her in the gut, which sends her flying back on to the porch. She hits her head on, like, a porch beam or something, and she falls unconscious on top of Dewey’s body.

Todd:  That’s right.

Craig:  And he’s going he’s going to shoot her. You know, these are these moments where the villains are always so stupid.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  He’s going to shoot her, but Stu realizes that Nev Campbell has disappeared. So Billy turns around and and redirects his attention. Now if he were smart at all, he would have just taken a second and went ahead and shot Gale. Yeah. Well Just to be safe, he’s gonna have to eventually anyway. You may as well just do it while you’re standing right there, but he doesn’t because she’s in the sequels.

Todd:  That’s right.

Craig:  But I love this part because Sydney has gotten away, and the phone rings, and it’s Sydney using the voice modifier. By the way, we never mentioned the guy that does go space voice is Roger Jackson, and he he’s got a really successful career as a voice actor. He’s done tons of animation and all kinds of things. He he’s been the voice for every iteration of, Scream.

Todd:  He’s fantastic. The voice is so iconic. It became so iconic as well. And, you know, I was going back and looking at his profile. I did not realize this. This guy has to be 1 of the original video game voice actors. He voiced some of my favorite computer games from the nineties, The Secret of Monkey Island, Monkey Island 2, King’s Quest 6, Space Quest 6. I sound like a huge dork reading these things off, but, like, at in 1990 was just the start of video games, computer games, in this case, getting voices at all.  And to think that this guy was at the beginning of that was also the dude who did the voice for Scream blew me away this afternoon when I found that out.

Craig:  Oh, yeah. He’s done tons of stuff too. I mean, children’s Mostly been in the basement. Yeah. But, anyway, so Sydney gets away, and she calls, and she has the voice recorder. And she says, let’s play a game. Guess who just called the police and turned in you stupid assholes or something. And so Billy runs off to look for her and Stu picks up the photos like, hello? And she’s talking to him.

Todd:  Did you really call the police?

Clip:  You miss your sorry ass.  My mom and dad are miserable.

Craig:  Which apparently was another adlib, but hilarious. And Craig loved it and kept it in. Oh. As much as Matthew Lillard kinda gets on my nerves, he must be a pretty funny guy because his adlibs are are pretty good. I’ll

Todd:  forever remember him from this movie.

Craig:  Yeah. True. Drew Barrymore jumps out of a closet in the Ghostface costume and stabs, Billy with an umbrella. And, apparently, I read a couple of different things about this. I I don’t know if it was the stunt guy. I think that it was actually the guy who played Billy, Skeet Ulrich, had recently had open heart surgery and still had sutures from that. And apparently, she pushed a little bit too hard and, actually tore some of his sutures. So his reaction, his pain reaction is pretty genuine.  But but she attacks him, but then Stu attacks her, and they fight, and then she ends up killing him by dropping the TV on his face, and he gets electrocuted. And then Billy comes back, but, gosh, this all happens so fast. Billy attacks, but then Gail shoots him. And we find out that Randy is alive. And Randy says to, Sydney, careful. This is the part where the presumably dead killer pops up for 1 last scare, which happens, but Nev Campbell gives him the double tap. She, you know, shoots him right in the head and says not my movie. And then and then the dad falls out of the closet, so we know he’s still okay.  Yep. And the last scene is, Gale reporting on the events of the party as the camera pans out away from the house. Just, you know, so much happens in this movie. There are so many things that we didn’t get an opportunity to talk about. You know? The fact that the people who were considered for Sydney, the per the first person who was offered the role was Molly Ringwald. Can you imagine? Oh, man. Molly Ringwald? She turned it down because she was 27 and thought she was too old to play high school. Well

Todd:  Oh.

Craig:  Everybody in this movie was around 25.

Todd:  Yeah. Clearly.

Craig:  Melissa Joan Hart auditioned for it. Brittany Murphy auditioned for it. Melanie Linsky auditioned for it. Joaquin Phoenix auditioned for Billy. Watching it again, things that had never bothered me before bothered me this time. Like, throughout the course of the movie, the killer in full costume is just following Sydney around in town when everybody knows

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  That there is a killer and that he dresses in that costume. That’s

Todd:  so weird. It doesn’t

Craig:  make any sense.

Todd:  It doesn’t make any sense at all. He’s, like, shows up in the reflection, like, standing in the street behind her. It’s like he’s in the woods, like, right there and and bops around.

Craig:  But overall and and like I said, there are some goofy dialogue moments, and I pointed out that 1 in the hallway, but there are some other ones too. But I am so willing to forgive those because I think beyond that, the storytelling is so well crafted and so clever and so smart. It’s it’s genuinely scary. It’s brutal. There’s violence galore as was the case with Wes Craven all the time. The MPAA kept sending it back, insisting that they keep cutting it down, cutting out more and more gore. Eventually, Bob Weinstein had to step in and go speak with, the MPAA. And when he came back, Wes Craven, who had battled the MPAA a throughout his, career, said, what did you say to them? Because they backed off.  They they’re like, okay. Fine. It’s fine. And Weinstein just said, I told them it was a comedy. I said, stop thinking about it as a horror movie. Think about it as a comedy. And they said, oh, okay. And then they were just okay with it or at least whatever version they had at that point.  It is genuinely funny Todd, and just some great characters, so well written, well performed, interesting. You know, Nev Campbell carries so much of it, but it’s really largely an ensemble piece, and everybody carries their weight. And, you know, like you said, Kevin Williamson already had plans for sequels, and I would have to say that it shows in the sequels because the sequels expand upon the back stories. They expand upon the characters and their motivations. There are always connections back to the central story lines. They’re all clever. I loved Todd the opening scene in 2 takes place in a theater. I did see part 2 in the theater in a packed theater of people who were just absolutely thrilled to see this movie.  And watching this murder scene in the theater play out in a theater that was very much like what was being portrayed on screen. I mean, it was almost euphoric. And then I loved 3 even though the critics didn’t, and it didn’t do as well as the others. Then that was supposed to be it. But then they convinced everybody, including Craven, to come back for part 4. This is 1 of the only franchises, and I think the only slasher franchise that the same director has directed every installment of, so far, but they convinced everybody to come back for 4. 4 wasn’t my favorite. I thought that it was clever.  They really went back to hardcore brutality and violence, and they pulled a little bit away from the comedy, not entirely, but pulled back from the comedy as much as it had been present in part 3. And people really like scream for it. Wasn’t my favorite, but it did really well. And then there was a TV series, which got very mixed reviews, and eventually ended up not doing very well. I’m pretty sure it’s canceled at this point. Like, they canceled the original series, then they rebooted it, and then it got canceled. There are always talks of Scream 5. People want it.  The central cast, surprisingly, their characters are all still alive. If they could get them to come back, I’m sure they would do a Scream 5. I would be really surprised if we don’t see it at some point. Sadly, it will not be helmed by Wes Craven because Yeah. He’s gone.

Todd:  Well, according to IMDB, Scream 5 has been announced.

Craig:  Really?

Todd:  As written by written by him and supposed to come out in 2021. But once again, you never know how these things are gonna go. And I know that Kevin Williamson himself had said that he didn’t really wanna do another Scream without Wes Craven. And and the Scream series is the only time in horror history where the entire franchise was helmed by the same team. You had Kevin Williamson Mhmm. And Wes Craven in all, you know, doing all of them. So that’s pretty remarkable in and of itself. I don’t think that’s happened again, to date for horror for horror franchise.

Craig:  No. I don’t think so either.

Todd:  Yeah. I mean, Child’s Play has the same writer, I think, through it, but different directors. Right? So yeah. Yeah. I was shocked at how well this held up, you know, especially some of the movies from the nineties that we’ve done and some of the movies that Kevin Williamson went on to do from the nineties. This obviously really his career took off. He did I know what you did last summer. After this, he was really the hot ticket.  1 listed at the time in the late nineties as 1 of the most powerful men in Hollywood.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Todd:  And he’s, like you said, since gone on to do TV, a lot of TV work. But some of his other stuff just it’s even he himself said that he goes back and he cringes at some of this movie, but, ultimately, he can’t believe that he wrote that at the time that he wrote it as a young writer.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  It’s a pretty remarkable piece of writing, and a great movie that still holds up. III seriously, I’m kinda beside myself at how much I enjoyed this movie even all these years later knowing it pretty much inside and out. Mhmm. It still had something new, you know, to to deliver to me. And, gosh, that just speaks volumes. It really does. It’s a it’s a perfect movie to do for our 200th episode. Yeah.  Thank you, Craig, for the idea.

Craig:  And we well, yeah. I mean, it was just it was really fun to revisit. I can’t imagine that any of our listeners haven’t seen it at this point. But even if you have, III told Todd, we were talking back and forth. I said, I feel like I don’t need to watch it. I’ve seen it dozens of times. And he was like, no. Go back and watch it because you’ll see new things or you’ll remember things that you didn’t.  And I and I’m glad that I did go back and rewatch it because I remembered most of it beat by beat, but there were just some little things that I either hadn’t noticed before or hadn’t thought about before. And, yeah, like you said, it’s kind of amazing that all these years later and even after repeated viewings, I was still engaged, and interested. And you’re right. It I think that it was fitting for our 200th episode. I can’t believe, we’ve come this far. I wanna give a special shout out to those of you who have been there with us at any point, but especially those of you who have been with us since very early on. And there are a handful of you out there, and we really appreciate your support. We appreciate, hearing from you, good or bad, though you’re usually very kind to us.  And if it weren’t for the interactions that we have with you and the feedback that we get with you, I very seriously doubt we would be here doing this now.

Todd:  So true.

Craig:  So thank you, everybody for listening, and I hope that, we can continue to keep bringing you new content for the foreseeable future.

Todd:  Yes. Please help us grow. We’re trying some new things, as we go into our 200 and first episode, the 3rd century of our of our podcast. We have a YouTube channel. If you would, please go to our YouTube channel. Just search for 2 guys in a chainsaw or you can find a link to it from our website and just subscribe to us. Just that simple act will add to our subscribing list. And if we get at least a 100 subscribers there, we can do a few more things with our channel.  We’re really trying to, expand our base a little bit of listeners, and, that is 1 way to do it. A lot of people apparently do listen to podcasts on YouTube now. So, please, have a look at that. Go to our website. Write a comment. Write a review for us in 1 of these places where reviews are made. Thank you for your support, and there are just a few things like that you can do that will help, maybe allow us to continue to do this into the future. But we have no plans right now, Todd it.  Until next time. I’m Todd

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

This recently rediscovered home invasion thriller from France bore such a striking resemblance to Home Alone that its director threatened to sue John Hughes when the Macauley Caulkin smash debuted two years later. And yes, the similarity is strong: A young boy is forced to use traps to protect his home after a menacing Santa slides down his chimney.

Although it’s much darker than most holiday movies, what we found in this forgotten French flick was a lot of heart and a fun ride. Recently remastered, you can now catch it exclusively on the Shudder network.

Episode 199, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  Well, we are creeping closer and closer to Christmas. In fact, it is Christmas. Merry Christmas, Craig.

Craig:  Merry Christmas.

Todd:  I, thought that this year, we actually did a fairly decent job of finding some Christmas horror movies. I was quite shocked. How about you?

Craig:  Yeah. Not bad. And the closer we got, I kept seeing more and more lists of, Christmas horror movies. So I think we’re set for a while.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. We keep saying that there are slim pickings, but, actually, the more and more we look into it, the more stuff there is out there. And some of it’s kind of obscure, some of it’s a little more recent, but we we have found some things. Right? Yep. We’re keeping a list for next year, and, also, thanks to our listeners’ suggestions. In fact, especially Todd, today’s movie, I was really looking forward to reviewing, and I had never heard of it before. It was actually recommended to us by one of our listeners.  His name is Steve. And, the movie is titled, depending on, I don’t know, where it was released or or whatever, either Deadly Games OR Game Over OR Dial Code Santa Claus. But the actual French title of the film Craig, do you know French? Do you know any French? Nope. You never took a French class? Anything like that? Nope. Well, Craig. Me neither. The original French title is 3615 Code Pere Noel. I have no idea if I’m saying that right.  It’s probably not Todd. Right? It’s probably Todd or something like that.

Craig:  I don’t know.

Todd:  The really interesting idea, this this film is a 1989 movie. And, apparently, when it came out, it did not get a lot of love commercially, although it did get some love critically.

Craig:  Yep.

Todd:  Came out in France in 1989. And then 2 years later, a small little film called Home Alone premiered in the US, which bears, in many ways, a striking resemblance to this movie, at least the concept of the film. So much so, in fact, that the writer director of this film, Rene Monsor, had actually threatened to sue the makers of Home Alone, for copying his movie. I don’t know whatever came of that. Do you? Did you find anything in your online research?

Craig:  That’s all I saw too was that he threatened, but I don’t think that he ever did. I don’t know. You know, there there are a lot of similarities and as we talk about it, I think that our listeners will be able to definite even if you’ve not seen the movie, I think that you’ll definitely be able to see the similarities, between the 2. I don’t know. Ultimately, they’re not so much alike that I would, say that it’s definite copyright infringement. But it makes you wonder, Chris Columbus did Home Alone. Is that right?

Todd:  Yeah. Well, he he directed it and but it was written by,

Craig:  Oh, the guy who did all the big eighties Yeah. Movies. Right? John Hughes.

Todd:  John Hughes. That’s right. Yeah.

Craig:  And, I I think that John Hughes said that he had gotten the inspiration for this movie while he had been vacationing in Europe. So No. I don’t know if he and like you said, it this movie came out just a year or a couple years before Home Alone. Who knows, you know, production on movies can take years in predevelopment and it could just be total coincidence that they share these similarities, but it makes you wonder.

Todd:  It kinda does. And it’s funny because I just got off of seeing, Netflix series called The Movies That Made Us and

Craig:  I watched it too. You told me about it, so I watched it. Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. So there’s one on Home Alone, which is really interesting, and then there’s one also on Die Hard, which I recently watched as well. And then I’m so happy that I saw both of those episodes because they go into pretty much into depth on both of those movies, Die Hard and Home Alone, and kind of how they were developed and all interviews a lot of the principal people involved, told a lot of stuff that I had never known before about the production of those movies. And then also, especially in the case of Die Hard talked about how it really changed the formula for action movies after that. Now what this movie is clearly kind of parody of these same action movies that were coming out in the eighties, the Die Hard type movie. This movie is could almost be, you know, Die Hard, in a big mansion with a kid. After Die Hard came out, all of the action movies could basically the pitches were generally, oh, it’s Die Hard on a boat.  Oh, it’s Speed. You know, it’s Die Hard on a on a bus. You know? It was just Die Hard on a blank is how movies got pitched. Because one of the interesting things about Die Hard is that it before that movie, a lot of action films, big time action movies were like they were like Rambo. Right?

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  They were like commando. They were these big hulky guys who, you know, obviously, they could take hits, they could run around, they could punch. But Die Hard came and and basically cast as nobody. It was almost laughed off the screen when Bruce Willis was cast because he was known for moonlighting. Uh-huh. He’s known for being a goofball and not at all an action star. Anybody who could you would even think of as an action star. They even took him off the posters after the test audiences.  And, people who saw previews for Die Hard kind of laughed when he came on. But it then did so well. And what was so interesting about that formula was it took this every man character, just this guy who isn’t sort of a Todd. He’s like an ex cop. But aside from that, you know, he’s just a guy. And he’s thrown into this crazy situation, and he’s kinda has to become an action hero despite it. He spends most of the movie, when you think about it, running and hiding from the bad guys. Mhmm.  You know, he’s not running in their guns blazing. And so it really changed the formula for action movies after that. And this movie seems to take that also and parody it by putting it in the the hands of this young kid, in this house. Even from the very beginning, it it’s straight shot for shot Rambo

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Where the kid’s suiting up.

Craig:  Yeah. The kid yeah. In this movie. And it all centers around this kid, Thomas. And he’s a young kid. I guess, what, like, 9? I don’t know. He’s young. Mhmm.  It appears that he’s obsessed with these, like, Rambo type movies. He, you know, gears all up like Rambo puts camouflage, or, like, Donald shoe polish on his face and, wears the headband or whatever. Like

Todd:  headbands and yeah.

Craig:  Right. And and he kinda well, I mean, essentially, he kinda booby traps his whole house just, like, for fun.

Todd:  Fun. Kid playing. It’s like you and me. Right? Like, if we had a giant mansion and parents who are super wealthy Right. We probably would have run around and done the same thing when we were kids. It was I don’t know. At least at least I did this sort of thing with

Craig:  my friends. Well, yeah. I mean and it’s cute. You know, in the beginning, he’s dressing up and and doing all this stuff, and he’s playing with his dog. Like, he’s he’s pretending like the dog is, like, the bad guy and kinda chasing him around. And eventually, he captures him in this, like, trap that he’s set up in a floor that drops into a net. And it’s very charming. The kid, I think, is is very charming, and I was just impressed.  And, you know, when it comes to believability, could this kid really actually do these things? I don’t know. Kids are really innovative. You give them Yeah. Enough resources, they will, you know, they’ll they’ll come up with some pretty cool stuff. But as young as this kid is, I was just really impressed with, how, you know, he could tackle these problems that, are set up. The the kid, like, can fix cars and drive, like Yeah. He’s kind

Todd:  of a

Craig:  He’s like a mechanical genius.

Todd:  He’s kind of a Richie Rich type character in a way. They they kind of describe this away a little bit in the movie in a couple different ways. He has a mother, and it seems like his mother works for a a major department store or a toy company or something like that. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. It seems like yeah. Like, she’s an executive or she owns stock in it or something, and they live in this amazing house, which

Todd:  Huge. It’s a mansion. It’s a chateau.

Craig:  Yeah. It it it it reminded me, you know, even the way they shoot it, you know, like, they do these sweeping shots, like, over these towers and things. Like, it’s it’s almost like Hogwarts that they live in. Yeah. And it’s it’s just, the mom and the kid and grandpa and JR, the dog. And they live in this huge mansion, and I I guess that the mom owns stock or or is an executive or whatever. So they’re they’re really wealthy, and it’s Christmas time, so she’s particularly concerned about work and sales and all of that kind of stuff. So she ends up having to go in to work for a lot of the movie.  I mean, she’s she’s there in the very beginning so that when the kid, you know, after he’s played all his games, they all sit down around the breakfast table together. They have a a cute little talk about, you know, is Santa Claus really real? And it’s cute because obviously this kid is at that age where he’s really starting to question. I imagine his friends are probably questioning and and telling him things, but, it’s just they have a cute conversation and the grandpa chips into about how Santa Claus is magic. And if you don’t believe in the magic, then Santa Claus isn’t real for you. It starts out as this sweet little Christmas movie, and it eventually does get pretty violent and scary primarily because of the antagonist who will get you just in a second because he’s coming right up. But did you get the impression that the dad is dead?

Todd:  Yeah. I did. I got the impression that the dad is dead, and it and it was kinda cast a shadow, a little bit of a shadow over the family or at least over the son. There are just little moments where the dad is mentioned. Even at the dinner table, the mother mentioned something about the grandfather says, oh, he’s like his mother. And the mother says, yeah, he’s got a lot of his dad in him too. Right. And then there’s a bit of a silence, right, where everyone kinda contemplates that.  I thought it was interesting the way this movie made the kid out to be you know, at first, when I’m watching this, I’m thinking this kid’s gonna be really douchey. You know? Uh-huh. I thought about, that old movie, The Toy, with Richard Pryor. Did you ever see that?

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Remember that one? It’s it’s this super rich kid who’s got plenty of toys, lives in this huge mansion, and they hire Richard Pryor to come in and basically be his human toy. You know, he’s like his babysitter. And, of course, the kid’s super douchey. Mhmm. And that was my natural inclination towards this kid seeing that he had everything, right, and had run of the place. Right. But then, almost immediately, as these other scenes played out, that really fell away. I I really felt like this kid was pretty down to earth despite it all.  It seemed like his mother really cared about him. He had this really nice relationship with his grandfather there

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Who seems to be kind of like his playmate there. And then, like you said earlier, like, super smart. Uh-huh. And the mom drops even in some later dialogue when she’s talking to an employee at work. She mentioned something about how he still believes in Santa Claus even though his IQ is, like, through the roof. Right. We get that. Right? As he’s, like, fixing cars and he has this, like, computerized system that he’s got the house wired up.  You know, there there are cameras everywhere in the house. He has this wristband that he can control everything with including see, and switch between the different cameras around the mansion. So, you know, but it all this happens and it still kinda seems believable enough, and he also still seems like a cool kid.

Craig:  Yeah. He’s endearing. And, like, the the grandpa the grandpa’s cute. You know, he’s just this old man. And the grandfather is, you know, clearly elderly and and not in great health. He’s diabetic, and he’s going blind.

Todd:  I can’t believe that guy can see anything.

Craig:  Oh, I know. Yeah. I mean, they because they show us POV shots from, like, his eyeballs. Sometime, it’s super, super cloudy. But, the kid, like, helps take care of him. You know? Like, the mom reminds him, don’t forget to give grandpa his insulin shots. And and they do. It seems like the kid and the grandpa have this nice relationship, and you’re right.  I expected the kid to be douchey too. I mean, he’s got a mullet.

Todd:  We just default to that with the mullet.

Craig:  And he’s dressing up like Rambo and stuff, and I just thought it was gonna be more silly, but it ends up actually being pretty sweet. But then we also meet the, antagonist. We see, you know, the winter streets of Paris, and the camera pans out, like, from a snow globe, and and we of Paris, and we see, like, a garbage truck run over it. Like, I feel like that’s like, you know, this is not going to be a perfect Christmas. Mhmm. But there’s this guy, like, I don’t really get much of a sense of who he is. Like, I can’t tell if he’s like a derelict or, if he’s just some random guy. But I think he’s a really interesting antagonist because when we first meet him, he sees these kids having a snowball fight, and he’s clearly enchanted by that.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And so he he wants to join in on the fun. And so he tries to join in their snowball fight, but, of course, you know, they’re little kids and he’s this creepy old guy that they don’t know until they all just run off. And he’s left there just looking kind of sad. And this I I I appreciate this kind of villain because even though we don’t really get any of his backstory, he doesn’t just seem like a malicious force. Like, he seems in some way damaged. You know? Like Yeah. He desperately wants to participate in the Christmas activities and the Christmas spirit, but he’s just kind of constantly rejected, and he’s clearly off kilter. You know, there’s there’s something not right about him.  And and he does, you know, end up being scary and and violent. But initially, I just got the sense that he was feeling left out and rejected, and kinda pushed him over the edge.

Todd:  Yeah. I was getting shades of Christmas evil actually where the movie seemed to take great pains to to show us the character of this. In Christmas evil, it’s, you know, it’s kind of the anti hero character in there, but he he’s very damaged. He seems to be very interested in participating in Christmas and getting in the spirit and interested in kids, but he kinda goes ends up going about it the wrong way, Also because there’s something clearly not right about him. But you’re right. I mean and we we intercut these scenes of the kid and his household and getting ready for Christmas and he’s gonna set up, he’s got his whole video camera system finally wired so that he can catch Santa so that he can actually prove that he exists for his friend who’s telling him that he doesn’t exist. And and so there’s that going on on the one side. And then on the other side, great pains are taken to show us some really interesting scenes with this other guy.  Mhmm. Like you said, he tries to join the snowball fight with the kids and they just kinda run away and he looks a little sad. He ends up joining, the Santa outfit or whatever at, I think it’s the woman’s, the actually, it’s the kid’s mother’s shopping mall or whatever it is that she’s in charge of. It’s not entirely clear.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  But she’s got this whole performance thing going on outside of the in the street. And he ends up playing the Santa out there and he seems to be genuinely enjoying interacting with the kids and just kind of entranced with the magic of it all. And then he has this little creepy kind of weird encounter with a little girl. She says, oh, hi, Santa, as other kids have been doing and smiling and walking away and he’s giving them presents. And she comes up close to him, and he asked her to come closer, and they kinda get face to face. And he starts sort of running his hands up and down her face and and kinda looking at her. It’s hard to see if he’s just enjoying the childlike innocence of her, if they’re trying to imply that maybe there’s some pedophilia here. I don’t really know.

Craig:  Yeah. I didn’t I didn’t get that. I thought that it was more, like, he really was just appreciating her innocence. You know, he’s he’s like he’s like stroking her face. Now it it I will give you that it is uncomfortable. Like, it it goes on too long. Like Mhmm. Stop touching her.  But she eventually she says Todd him, I think, I don’t like your face. And his his look kind of sours, and and she’s like, you’re not the real Santa. And she pulls his beard off, which upsets him, and he slaps her in the face.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah.

Craig:  Which listen. You know, sometimes you wanna slap a kid. You You know?

Todd:  I I I’m a parent. I can totally totally admit that.

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, you don’t because you’re not supposed to, but sometimes you want to. Kids can be pretty snotty and bratty sometimes. But, again, you don’t because you’re a grown up and they’re kids.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And so it’s totally inappropriate. And, yes, the mom sees it. In fact, you know, this whole series of events is a little bit contrived.

Todd:  Oh, for sure.

Craig:  Yeah. Even before this happens, the kid tries to call Santa Claus on some sort of system. Now I am not from Europe. I’ve only visited Europe very briefly, And I don’t know what this is, but it seems almost like at the dawn kind of maybe of the Internet where what would you call, like, a, like, a a chat room kinda thing?

Todd:  Oh, dude. I got so interested in this after seeing it in the movie. I looked it up to see if it was real, and I found out it totally was real. And I went kinda down the rabbit holes to figure out about it. It’s called Minitel. It was rolled out in July of 1980. And if you’ve had any experience with, like, bulletin board systems back in the day that were sort of text based where you dial up places and over the phone lines, you know, it’s basically pre World Wide Web. You could chat with people or you could get in chat rooms.  You could download simple software, things like that. This was, according to Wikipedia, the world’s most successful online service prior to the World Wide Web. And you could, like, check stock prices, make train reservations, purchase things online, search the telephone directory. They had, like, email and chat, basically, like we have today. Kinda Craig. But it was all done through sort of dial up on the simple computers, or they had these kiosks out and about, sort of like pay telephones

Craig:  Right. Where

Todd:  you could just put some money in and you could access it. Right? Like, you’d access a public computer in the library or something like that. So cool. And it really interesting of the director to choose to incorporate this technology into the movie at that time. It’s a really interesting idea, And it really makes the movie, I think, kind of age well, even though it’s clearly, like, retro technology.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  This sort of thing happens today. Right? Like, kids get online and some pervert or some adult connects with them in a unsavory way and bad things happen. Right?

Craig:  Right. Right.

Todd:  In a way, the movie is kind of ahead of its time, I think, in that regard. Right? Yeah. But you’re right. It’s totally contrived because he happens to contact the same guy. And then later on, the same guy interacts with his mother.

Craig:  Well and and it it I feel like the movie is kind of leading you to believe that somehow this Santa Claus, this evil Santa Claus or whatever, he puts together that the kid that he talked to on the phone is also the son of this woman who fired him for slapping the kid. And, like, then when he goes like, I I she sends him, like, up to HR or something to I don’t know.

Todd:  Process his last paycheck or something.

Craig:  We had found out earlier that even though she’s trying, I think, to be respectful of her son and not flaunt it, she is seeing another man that she works with. I guess he was up there in HR or whatever. Santa, like, overhears him talking to somebody, like, making arrangements about them being late. So they the caretakers need to look out for the son and the grandpa or whatever. And anyway, so Santa puts all this together Mhmm. And he finds, you know, the toys that they’re going to be shipping to the manse, you know, the mansion or whatever, then he covertly hitches a ride in the, delivery van. And and that’s how he gets there. And then when he gets there, he kills the delivery guy, and he kills there’s, like, there’s a whole separate, like, servant’s quarters house, where I think, like, a caretaker and a cook live or something.  And we don’t see it happen on screen, but we see their bodies later. He kills them too. And the kid has, you know, been talking to one of his friends who’s his same age about, you know and and the other, his friend is like, oh, you’re too old for this. Santa’s not real. Blah blah blah. But the kid talks to him on the Internet thing, and he’s like, see, I told you. And he sets up that whole camera system, and he’s waiting under the table, and he’s gonna wait for Santa to get there. One other thing that I think that we missed, but that is important, I think, is that at some point, the mom calls the son.  He’s there waiting under the table in front of the fireplace. She says, are you waiting up for Santa or something like that? And he’s like, well, yeah. And she said, well, don’t because he won’t come until after you’ve gone to sleep. And if you do catch him, he’ll be really mad, and he’ll turn into an ogre. And the kid’s like, oh, no. But he stays out there anyway. But when Santa does arrive and my goodness, he comes down the chimney. Yeah.  Like That’s a problem. The guy, you know, he’s committed to this role. He comes down the chimney, and at first, the kid, you know, of of course, is awestruck and is so excited. But then JR, the dog, comes in and starts barking at him because obviously, in reality, he’s an intruder in their home. The dog is barking at Santa and, like, pulling at his costume. And the Santa guy picks up I don’t know. It was like some kind of spade. Was it like a pie server or something?

Todd:  Like a pie server. It had a point to it. Yeah.

Craig:  And he picks it up, and he brutally kills the dog right in front of the kid, which

Todd:  Yeah. Inches away from his face, basically. That was Craig. I thought Craig’s gonna hate this movie after this moment.

Craig:  I didn’t like it. But I have to admit that it real you know, that’s that’s traumatic for a kid to watch his you know, he loves this dog. He’s been playing with this dog. It’s part of the family. And to watch Santa Claus brutally murder his dog inches in front of his face. He knows right away that this is serious.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s it’s pretty shocking. And actually, it’s it’s the point at which the movie kind of ceases to become this Christmas heartwarming kid movie, and more like a, I wouldn’t say slasher movie, but close to it. Right? Yeah. It, you know, becomes a horror movie at this point. And so the kid freaks out, and he runs away, and it becomes this cat and mouse thing where the kid’s got his his arsenal of tricks and booby traps, and the Santa’s wandering around looking for him. And, in the meantime, the grandfather’s there too. And so the grandfather’s also in danger.  And so the kid, you know, wakes him up and yanks him around through the house as well. Mhmm. And he has these these secret passageways, and including this one just massive secret passageway that’s really hard to believe it exists.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  I mean, I don’t know if it’s like a cave underground or something like that, but you can’t even see the ceiling.

Craig:  Oh, no. Yeah. It’s huge. And and he and and apparently, the kid is the only one who knows about it. Like

Todd:  Yeah. That’s what he even his grandfather didn’t know about it Todd he brings him in here.

Craig:  Yeah. And it it’s god. I don’t know. You know? Like, these little things are just peppered in here and there because he says it’s full. Not only is it a huge like, it looks like a warehouse. It’s enormous. And it’s full of old toys. And the kid tells the grandpa, because the grandpa didn’t know it was there.  I mean, this is all the the Santa has been chasing them. They tried to get in the car, but the car won’t Todd. And Santa is menacing them and breaking the out the windshield and chasing them. And they access this big enormous room through a refrigerator, like, that’s the secret door. And they get in there, and the grandpa’s like, what is this? And he tells them, he’s like, well, this is a secret room. Nobody knows about it. Not even mom, but it’s got all my dad’s old toys, and my dad’s dad’s old toys, and his dad’s old toys. And someday, you know, I’ll show it to my son.  So it it’s almost like maybe the dad was a part of this toy empire, and maybe the mom had to take it over when he passed away. I don’t know. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter, but it’s a really cool set piece.

Todd:  Well, it is neat. And it also it leads to a very interesting short conversation between the kid and his grandfather, which sort of further solidifies not only how smart this kid is, but how endearing he is. When he he makes mention to his grandfather, he says, after he’s saying, oh, yeah. This is my toys. This is my my father’s toys. My grandfather’s toys are all down here. Can you imagine the work that Santa must have gone through to bring all of these toys to our family? Yeah. It’s like, wow.  That was, that was an interesting thought to come from this young kid’s, mind. Right? Mhmm. It just really again, it sort of solidified the it made more real his real captivation with Santa, and and just the way that his mind worked, and a little bit of appreciation there for his family. It was really a heartwarming little bit, except for the fact that this the whole idea that this place exists and is there and is so hidden, even though it should be so easy to get into, any adult who opens up that fridge down where apparently they do the laundry should be able to, you know, figure out where it is. Right. That’s a little unbelievable in that regard. But it makes for a cool set piece that I thought they would use more often. Yeah.  There’s one encounter down there where the Santa Claus follows him down there, and he gets beaten back. I think that’s where he encounters the grandfather at first. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. Because there’s all this business with the phones. Like, Santa cut the phone lines. But while, the grandpa and the kid, who are basically just gonna wait it out I guess the kid tried one of the phones and it was dead or whatever. I don’t know. But then they’re in the warehouse, and they hear the phone ring in the mother’s office. And the kid’s like, oh, that’s a separate line. It should be okay.  Well, the person who’s calling is the mom, and she’s getting increasingly worried, and and so she’s actually getting ready to head there anyway. But the kid wants to get to the phone so that he can call the police or call whoever he needs to call, and their grandpa’s like, no. Don’t go. It’s too dangerous. And he says, no. Look. I’ve got my security camera watch. I can see exactly where he is.  And so the kid Rambos up again, goes out, and for a while, it works. You know? He’s maneuvering in such a way that he can see where the bad guy is, and so he’s just taking alternate routes. But, eventually, Santa realizes that there are cameras, and he starts breaking them. Eventually, they come face to face again. And, you know, this just kinda keeps happening. Yeah. It’s running away. It’s sneaking around, and then, here we are again.  And there’s a quick chase and maybe a trap or some kind, and then they separate again, and it’s more sneaking around. You know, that happens for a while, but I was never bored. No. I thought it was actually pretty fast paced and, exciting.

Todd:  The continuity wasn’t quite there like it is in Home Alone. Right? If we’re gonna compare the 2 you know what? With Home Alone, you get a a real sense of the layout of the house because it’s well, of course, it’s a smaller house. But there’s kind of a through line. The burglars go to the front, and they try the front. They can’t get in the front. They go to the bag. They try the bag. They try to get inside.  They get downstairs, and then they’re kinda you know, so there’s there’s this kind of process where you can really follow everything that’s going on as they get closer and closer inside the house. Whereas in this movie, almost some of these scenes can just be swapped around. Right? Sure. Like he’s he’s upstairs in the hallway and he kinda falls in this net thing. And then it cuts away. Like we don’t know how Santa really got out of the net. But now the kid’s in a different place and Santa’s out of the net again and he’s coming towards them. It’s not that kind of suspense where you feel the build and the build and the build.  At least I didn’t.

Craig:  No. You’re right. The the scenes are kind of interchangeable and and like you said, Santa does fall through that trap door, the same one that the dog fell through, so that had already been established. But but like you said, the geography, you never really get a sense of it because there’s one shot, and it was a really cool shot, but it’s like the kid is in this part of the house that is a literal maze. Like Yeah.

Todd:  I didn’t

Craig:  I was like, what is this room supposed to be? Like, is this the maze room? Like

Todd:  Was it supposed to be an art gallery or something? I don’t know. There’s lots of stuff on the walls.

Craig:  But, yeah, the the sequencing of the scenes is really pretty unimportant. But but the tension remains. Eventually, the kid gets to the mom’s office, but Santa beat him there. And so he goes out the window. This kid is barefoot. It’s cold and snowy outside, and he’s out the window on the top story of this enormous, like, gothic house with, like, spires and towers and all kinds of stuff. Santa’s chasing him around. And then this was just another moment where I felt like they did such a good job of giving this kid humanity.  Because while he’s out there, you know, Santa knows he’s out there, but he doesn’t follow him out there. So the kid’s just standing out there on a ledge, and he starts crying and shouting for his mom, like, which is totally what I would do. Yeah. So even though in many respects, he’s very intelligent and mature for his age, he’s still just a kid. And he’s scared, and I I appreciated that.

Todd:  I didn’t get the process of events that got his grandfather in a suit of armor by the base of the stair I guess he was hiding in there for some

Craig:  Well, yeah. Okay. So Santa, somehow, he hears the grandpa. Santa makes his way into the big hidden room. The boy, Thomas, hears his grandpa because they’ve got walkie talkies. He hears his grandpa saying, Thomas, is that you? Is that you? And so he goes racing inside, and just in the nick of time, pulls him through a door or or something right before he’s about to get stabbed. And then we don’t see it happen. But apparently, what happens is somehow they get this grandpa in a suit of armor to hide, which is probably a smart place to hide.  I wouldn’t think that many people would think to look there even though you’re completely immobilized. But it did do a good job of kind of getting the grandpa out of the way. Yeah. Like, at that point, I wasn’t really worried for the grandpa’s safety, and he was out of the way. So Thomas could just kind of deal with Santa on his own and not have to worry too much about grandpa. There are a couple of close calls, but I actually thought it was kinda smart to get I could grandpa’s nice and sweet, and I liked the relationship between them, but he was kinda, you know, just kind of a ball and chain that the kid had to worry about, and getting him in that suit kinda got him out of the way.

Todd:  Yeah. It did. And then it kinda sets us up for another problem that Thomas ends up with is the next time he comes to check on his grandfather, he’s he’s not responding. And he realizes and his grandfather calls out for insulin. And so he realizes that that he he’s he’s really he’s going Todd diabetic shock or something. Mhmm. So now Todd needs to go out and actually find insulin for him and, you know, avoid the Santa while he does it. He ends up having to go out, I think, to the, what is it, the servants’ quarters that were outside, as a matter of fact, to go grab him and bring him in.  So there’s a bit of tension there too. Just gives him another problem to try to solve amidst, the problem of dealing with the Santa. And then at some point, the Santa does kinda get him. He grabs him, and he’s got his little spade up to his neck. Then, this is the part that I just didn’t quite get. He says, okay. I win. You lose.  Now, I’ll go hide myself and you’ll be it. Okay? Count to 20. And he runs off.

Craig:  Yeah. What

Todd:  was that? Was there something I was missing there Todd, or did this just take a bit of a wild turn?

Craig:  No. I think he’s crazy. You know? I I Yeah. I think it’s just he’s playing a game like hide and seek, which is why one of the titles of the movie is hide and freak. But, yeah, I I it surprised me in the moment, but then when I thought about it, I’m like, well, you know, it makes as much sense as anything else. From the very beginning, he just wanted to play with those kids. Apparently, he just doesn’t know how to play nice.

Todd:  What? Don’t kill their dog in front of them.

Craig:  Yeah. And and, you know, I don’t know. I I I know that, I had that written down in my notes somewhere, but I can’t find it. He is menacing. Like, at one point, when he’s chasing Thomas, he slashes Adam with the hide cutter or whatever it is, and he puts a big gash in his leg. Thomas is significantly hurt. Like, he, he splints his leg. I’m I’m not really sure why you would splint your leg for a cut, but, I mean, he’s 9.  So whatever.

Todd:  Whatever makes sense to him.

Craig:  Yeah. One of my favorite parts is after he Santa slashed his leg, he gets away, and then he kinda taunts Santa on the intercom saying

Todd:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  You’re you’re gonna be scared. And there’s this little montage where he, like, I don’t know, he splints his leg, and then he gets his dog and carries him into the backyard and buries him. And there’s a flashback of him playing with his dog, and the kid is crying. I mean, it really tugged at my heartstrings. Of course, you know anything with dogs does, but, I just I felt for this kid. And I just thought as far as horror movies go, you don’t really tend to get a lot of characterization. Yeah. And here, you know, they’re they’re giving this kid some dynamics.  And and that’s something that I think is in some ways reminiscent of Home Alone, but in other ways, I think maybe this movie played it a little bit better.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Because in Home Alone, the kid is, you know, he’s very innovative, and you’re rooting for him for sure. But throughout, he’s also just kind of a smart ass. Yeah. This kid is he’s fighting for his survival, and he’s actually processing emotion and, you know, taking matters into his own hands. It it surprised me. Scared? Yeah. It’s true. It’s true.  Getting scared? Yeah. It’s true. It’s true. It’s a little bit of a darker movie in

Todd:  that way, but it’s not as dark as you would think. I don’t know. No. No. I I think that this is one of

Craig:  those types of movies that if you’ve got a mature young person who’s interested in horror, this could kind of be one of those kind of gateway films. It is pretty dark. I think that you would have to have a pretty mature young person, especially, you know, considering the subject matter of Santa and all that. You’d have to take all that into consideration. But, this would have been a movie that I would have really liked as a kid because I would have wanted to relate to this kid. I would have wanted to think that in this circumstance, I could be tough. I could do it. I could be smarter.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. It totally plays into that. You know, at this time and in this way, it is a bit of a product of its time of these movies where these kids can do all these awesome things. Right? Like like The Goonies and and and and setting traps and kind of a Hardy Boys type deal. Yeah. Yeah. Smart and McGivory and innovative. And we all felt at that time that we could do that Todd.  And we wanted to get in these kind of adventures, you know. Right. It was a really magical time for kids’ filmmaking at that time. And I guess there’s still some of that going on. Right? But a lot of the hit movies that centered around kids really focused on this aspect. And this this movie has it. Totally has it. Yep.  And so then, what happens? It, basically, the mother ends up calling the police. Right? Yes. And an officer comes over, and the kid sees an officer in one of the towers of the house, sees the officer wandering around another tower of the house, in shadow. And it turns out the vagrant gets to him too. At the same time, I think Thomas comes back to find his grandfather and, pushes over the suit of armor to get to him as trying to disassemble it. Right?

Craig:  Well, before that, there was one of my favorite parts. Like, after he buries his dog and stuff, there is that very Kevin McCallister moment where he is, like, booby trapping the whole house. And, he makes a grenade, like, out of a toy grenade. Like, he’s got a toy grenade, but then he pours, I don’t know, gunpowder or flash powder or something in it. So he’s got this real grenade, and he attaches it to, like, a motorized car. And, it’s supposed to blow up Santa, but the car, like, rolls up to Santa, and Santa just picks it up and turns it around and rolls it the other way. So this grenade is headed right for the suit of armor that grandpa’s in, and Thomas has been in hiding, you know, waiting to see if his trap will work. Well, then he has to expose himself to run out and try to get the grenade from to stop it from getting his grandpa.  And then, Santa and, Thomas, you know, have a fight right there in the moment. And there’s lots of little things that are going on. You know, just just clever smart things. Like, I don’t even remember specifically what it was. Maybe something sticky or something. But at some point, Thomas attaches, like, a tracker

Todd:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  To something, and he shoots it through a slingshot at Santa. It it sticks to his back. So he’s tracking him for a while. Like, just cool stuff going on.

Todd:  And then there’s an interesting scene where he’s engaged in doing something. And on his radar, we can see Santa’s getting closer and closer and closer to him. And it turns out that Santa’s apparently found this tracker, and he’s attached it to a little motorized tank, which he has sent towards Thomas. And so the tank ends up at his feet, and he bends down. He picks it up and looks and sees his tracker there. So he doesn’t have that anymore. Yeah. There’s some neat things like this going on.  Right?

Craig:  Yeah. And I think that that’s where your hide and seek moment comes in because, eventually, Santa gets him and has the advantage, could do whatever he wanted to, could kill him right there. But instead of doing that, like you said, he just said, I win. Now I’ll hide and you find me. And Thomas is just as confused as we are. So he runs out, and he sees the cop car. He gets in the cop car and starts driving. I don’t even know where he’s going, but it turns out that that’s where Santa had hidden, and he pops up and he’s like, surprise.  And so Thomas crashes the car. And this is where the final standoff comes up because Santa chases him around outside, but eventually, Thomas trips over the dead cop and gets his gun. And he pulls the gun on Santa, and he’s crying, pointing the gun at Santa Claus, and he just says, why? You know, I I kinda had forgotten up to that point that this kid really still thinks that this is Santa Claus. Yeah. It is doing all of this. Mhmm. Not just some crazy guy, Santa Claus. And when they come face to face, like, he’s heartbroken, like, why? But then Santa starts approaching and he shoots him, like, in the leg.  Mhmm. So he goes back, Thomas goes back to check on grandpa who’s unconscious, but he gives him the insulin and he’s okay. But, unfortunately, so is Santa who comes bursting in. And again, another kind of odd moment where Santa just kind of, like, reaches his hand out to Thomas, almost not in a sexual way, but, like, longingly, you know, like, he’s

Todd:  Mhmm.

Craig:  Reaching out to him. And poor grandpa who’s virtually blind is has got the gun and is trying to point it, but he can’t see anything. So he fires, and we don’t know what’s happened because it shoots to the mom and her boyfriend who are now arriving at the house. And, they come in. Santa’s dead on the floor. Thomas kind of collapses into her arms and says, it’s my fault, mom. I wanted to see Santa Claus. It’s my fault.  It’s my fault, my mom. She’s really wild about the way. And a Christmas song starts playing, and that’s it. You know, like, it ends pretty dark.

Todd:  It’s super dark. Right? So this kid’s gonna be traumatized for the rest of his life. He takes to heart exactly what his mom said, you know, is that Santa just turns into an ogre if you’re if you’re looking for him. Uh-huh. And so, yeah, he just lays the blame for this whole incident himself. It’s it’s super dark and super horrible because you love this kid. Yeah. It’s so French.

Craig:  Yeah. It is. Well and that’s what I read. You know, like you said, it didn’t as far as money at the box office, it Todd didn’t do great. But it it won some awards at a couple of festivals, and, it got some good reviews from critics. And and one of the reviews that I read said something like, you know, the there are some plot holes and the continuity maybe is a little bit problematic, but it really goes to show what French cinema can be when it’s good. Mhmm. I haven’t seen a lot of French movies.  I think the only other French movie we’ve reviewed was High Tension. Right?

Todd:  Yeah. That’s right.

Craig:  And I can even see some similarities there. I mean, just kind of in the level of violence and

Todd:  Willingness to kinda go places.

Craig:  Yeah. And the menacing aspect of the bad guy and stuff. But so I’m not I I’m certainly not an aficionado when it comes to French cinema. But, I thought overall I was excited to see the movie because I had never heard of it before, and I knew that it had really kind of only come out in the States in 2018 because they had remastered Todd. And, Shutter had picked it up exclusively. And so I was excited to see it just because I hadn’t ever heard of it. I hadn’t ever seen it before, but I didn’t have really big expectations. And it surprised me.  It was better than I thought that it would be. Yeah. It wasn’t amazing, but it was significantly better than I thought that it would be.

Todd:  Yeah. It really was. And and maybe part of that is due to the fact that you think that, well, since I haven’t heard of this movie ever, it must not be that great. Right? But but like you said, it won all those awards. Apparently, the director was approached, by a studio to remake it in the US, and that never ended up happening. And like you said, it premiered at some festivals. The director claims that, at one of these places where it got a standing ovation, that Wes Craven, Steven Spielberg, and Ray Bradbury were in the audience. Oh, boy.  Yeah.

Craig:  I can’t even imagine that, like

Todd:  That those 3 are just right there.

Craig:  In the same room, like

Todd:  Well, it must I think it was a fantasy sci fi kind of, horror festival, probably. Sure. But Steven Spielberg then tapped this director to direct a number of episodes of the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles Oh,

Craig:  that’s right.

Todd:  Television show. Yeah. And things like that. So, you know, the director, this is his first film, and he had a pretty decent career after that. And he’s still working and doing things. And we’re just now learning about this movie. And it probably couldn’t have come at a better time, really, because now everything eighties is cool again. Right.  And this movie’s pretty retro in that regard. But it’s also so charming and so interesting, and it’s fun to have a Christmas horror movie that we can that we can watch. So it’s neat that in this day and age, these things get unearthed again and re you know, re released and reborn and kind of have a second coming. I I guess, I read also that this movie, even even in France and in Europe, even when it came out on VHS, it was like a top selling VHS tape for, like, a year. So, it’s not like people didn’t appreciate this movie to some degree. It just never got probably the notoriety it it deserved or could have had, otherwise, you know, stateside. Right. Yeah.  But I liked it. I I liked it too. I thought it was fun. Really interesting how it took me emotionally in some different places. Ended on that note that I just totally wasn’t expecting and seemed very fitting for the movie. And I just truly cared about the character. Oh, and by the way, the cinematography was great. Uh-huh.  The cinematography was fantastic. The shots, everything staged. It was it was like die hard in this mansion. It really was. Some of these shots were direct homages to these action films in the eighties, including that little scene where he’s, you know, aiming the gun at Santa and he’s laying back. He’s got mud all over his face. He’s in the woods and he’s going, why? You know? Right. So, you know, it was clear the director was trying to do some of this kind of stuff, which he flat out said.  It it just it kind of succeeds to me on a number of different levels and and really works.

Craig:  Yeah. I and I I do think that, in terms of that, of the parody of those types of films, you know, we have a lot of listeners outside of the states, and we’re probably older than some of our listeners. But and so some people probably won’t realize how huge those movies were in the eighties. Like Yeah. You said, Rambo, Commando, you know, all of these really machismo type movies with these big, hulking, tough guys. They were hugely popular. So it was smart to capitalize on that at the time, and I I mean, you see definite, like you said, major, homages. There’s one part, like, I feel like in the very beginning, there’s a montage where the kid is, like, working out and putting weapons together, and there’s this song playing in the background that sounds shockingly like eye of the tiger.  Like, that can’t that that can’t submit an accent.

Todd:  It’s it’s as close as you can get to Eye of the Tiger without running into legal problems. It’s like it’s like instead of the notes going up, they go down.

Craig:  But yeah. I mean, those people who are our age or maybe a little bit older will definitely pick up on those things, and it’s kind of a fun throwback and and homage. And and those movies, you know, I watched them sometimes with my dad, and and they were fun because of, you know, explosions and big time action. They were a little bit too butch for me as a kid, but, this is something that I I just know that if I had seen this when I was a kid, I would have been a huge huge fan.

Todd:  Well, I recommend it. I totally recommend it, if you’re looking for a Christmas horror movie, even one that you could almost see with the family. Like Craig said, there’s a little it’s a little dark for the youngest kids, but if you’ve got some teenagers in the house, or some preteens who can handle this kind of thing, it’s not super it’s not really gory. No. The the most gore we really get is the the dog getting stabbed, I

Craig:  would say. Yeah.

Todd:  Not to diminish that. But, but, yeah, it’s it’s pretty pretty safe in that regard and a lot of fun.

Craig:  Mhmm. A lot

Todd:  of fun. Well, thanks again for listening to another episode, and happy holidays to everybody out there. This concludes our holiday season. However, we are coming up solid on our 200th episode. And I that’s hard to even say. It’s hard to even believe. I know. And it’s so crazy that it’s gonna be at the very end of the year or the beginning of 2020, depending on how quickly I can get it edited.  Craig and I are gonna try to put together something kinda special for you or at least something special for us that you’re gonna have to go along with. So stay tuned for that next week. Until next time, I’m Todd

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

This Friday the 13th knockoff may be full of Christmas imagery, but that can’t save it from being hilariously bad. A killer Santa stalks a bunch of super-horny teenage girls and their boyfriends. Sound familiar?

To All A Goodnight (1980)

Episode 198, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw  I’m Todd

Craig: and I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, Craig Christmas is creeping up on us with a knife in his hand.

Oh, right. That’s not the end of the corny jokes. I’m sure. Especially when we start talking about this movie, we found another Christmas movie that we hadn’t heard of. Well, I hadn’t heard of it before. Had, you 

Craig: know, 

Todd: this is, um, another, I believe, Canadian movie, although I’m not 100% sure on that. Called to all a good night, and it came out in 1980 it came out right on the heels of, actually, I think the same year as Friday the 13th and if Friday the 13th hadn’t come out first, you would think that Friday the 13th borrowed a lot from this movie, but I think it’s quite the other way around.

But it’s interesting because the director of this film is David Hess, and I’m David Hess is a rock star. Almost literally David Hass was a as multitalented mostly as a musician. But also did some dabbling and film. Some of our listeners might remember him as one of the bad guys in the last house on the left.

Yeah. You remember that? I mean, he’s got 

Craig: like, I didn’t know that was him, but I, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I looked him up, but I was just looking for his deck. Directorial stuff. And this is the only movie, or at least feature film that he directed. 

Todd: Yeah. He’s only been in like, I think he only has like 39 acting credits to his name, which is more than I do.

Yeah. But, you know, it’s like a random movies here and there. Nothing really big. He does a few things on TV, but, uh, as a musician, he has written a number of hit songs for people. He wrote all shook up for Elvis Presley wound, uh, some countries, things like, um. For Conway Twitty and Andy Williams and Pat Boone, and a number of people.

I mean, he’s just had a, I think that’s where he’s made most of his money and gotten most of his fame. And according to him, it’s where he’s most comfortable. But he’s done some dabbling in film too, as an actor and then behind the scenes as a producer sometimes, and then directing this, and you’re right, he hasn’t really directed much besides this.

So I guess maybe after this movie, he wasn’t in huge demand as a director. And then the movie was written by a guy, 

Craig: Alex rebar. 

Todd: Alex rebar. Yeah. What did you find out about Alex rebar? Craig.

He’s also an actor. He’s dabbled in, in television a little bit. He has about eight writing credits to his name. Um, this a movie called demented, which I think we need to throw on our, on our list. Another movie called nowhere to hide. And, and that’s kind of about it. So really this is about the only thing he’s done as well.

And for both of them. More or less their very first gig out there. And so clearly they’re going for the horror genre as we sort of talk before. It’s sort of the way to, to make your Mark in a safe way. It doesn’t require a lot of money. I think this movie had a budget of about $75,000 almost completely takes place in a, in a mansion, uh, and the ground surrounding the mansion.

So it was probably pretty cheap to shoot. And then I saw an interview with a, one of the actresses who mentioned that they had actually just stayed in this mansion and filmed this movie over the course of 10 days. So cheap, quickly shot a slasher movie in the vein of Friday the 13th very, very much so.

And borrows from a couple other movies as well as we’ll probably get to talking about. And aside from those two people, and one of the stars in this movie, who ends up being the final girl, her name is Jennifer Runyon. There’s not many people of note in here with a couple. Well, there are a couple others.

Craig: Harry Reems. 

Todd: Yeah, Harry reins. Right. So 

Craig: I’m familiar with this word. 

Todd: I guess we can both admit that, huh? It wasn’t until the last scene with him in it. I don’t know if it was just too dark or we didn’t see much of him at the beginning of the movie, but at the end of the movie, when he comes in, I did a double take.

I was like, no. No, that is God. Oh my God. That is funny. 

Craig: I couldn’t remember having seen him at all. I’m like, I don’t know who that is, but, okay. 

Todd: Right. Yeah. That was kind of crazy. But he’s, he’s accredited here as Dan Stryker. Harry Reems is a. Pretty famous porn star, and he did not do much outside of porn just because of the stigma attached.

This, uh, this movie, um, he started another film that didn’t get major distribution because of his, actually the other film that was written by Alex rumbar demented. He was a star in that and a 20th century Fox would not pick that up because of his notoriety as an adult film star. And so like I am. Yeah.

It was a different time. 

Craig: And that’s funny cause I don’t remember exactly, I remember reading about it at some point that he, uh, he’s notorious for having starred in deep throat. And, um. You know, when deep throat came out, like it was like wildly popular. Like it was kind of like the first mainstream porn movie.

And you know, people who typically didn’t go to, you know, like CD porn theaters were actually going and seeing this movie. And if I remember correctly, he just kind of happened into it. Like, I think he was on the crew or something. Yeah, I may be making this up. 

Todd: It’s true. 

Craig: But I think he was like on the crew and they recruited him to be in it, and he had never really done anything like that before, but he did.

And that kind of launched his career. And it’s funny because you look at him and he’s just this very kind of charming. You know, like fatherly looking guy, you would never guess that he made a name for himself in the adult films, but he did 

Todd: big name of variable.

Yeah. And then he went ahead and, and I’m retired in the early eighties married a super religious woman and moved to Utah. I assume. Became Mormon, converted to Christianity or something and never said anything negative about his previous career. He never denounced it. In fact, he, he said quite openly, he wasn’t ashamed of it, but he completely left it behind and became like a real estate broker died, like of like heart failure or something like that.

Uh, Oh, I think it was pancreatic cancer or something like that in 2013 so. I know way too much about Harry Reems,

Craig: but 

Todd: he’s got, he’s got such a tiny role in this movie that it’s kind of a blink if you don’t know who he is. It’s a blink if you miss it kind of thing. The other woman in here before we get going is Jennifer Runyon. Now. It’s interesting. Jennifer Runyon, she was one of these people who once I was watching the movie, I thought, okay, now she looks very, very familiar to me, but I could not place her.

And this was her first acting gig, and she went on to do a lot of stuff in TV. Uh, but probably most famously as the female student in Ghostbusters, in the very opening. 

Craig: Isn’t that funny? Like she, she’s in that movie for maybe like three minutes, but. You totally recognize her. She’s the girl that bill Murray’s like doing these psych cake experiments or whatever, and she’s getting every answer wrong, but he’s telling her that she’s getting them right cause he’s just flirting with her and the poor guy that she’s testing with, he’s actually getting stuff right.

And bill Murray’s telling him he’s getting it wrong and like giving him shocks or whatever. It’s so funny, I. Yeah. She’s so recognizable from that bit part in that movie. I also remember, um, back, you know, after the Brady bunch got canceled, it was so popular enough that they were doing specials all the time.

Like they had a variety show and there was a cartoon, and eventually, uh, sometime in, I think the late eighties, they did a Christmas special. And the girl who played Cindy opted out. She didn’t want to do it anymore. And, uh, Jennifer Runyon took her place and played Cindy in a very Brady Christmas. And I remember that.

I remember when it aired, like it was. An exciting thing

Todd: for some people. No, you’re right. It 

Craig: was like she’s the only other recognizable person. I didn’t recognize anybody else. In fact, I clicked on them to look at their. Resumes or whatever, and a lot of them, in fact, we’re only in this movie. 

Todd: Yeah. This was that big surprise. Well, I’m kind of a little surprised.

I mean, some of them are, they’re not halfway bad. I mean, it’s sometimes it’s not terrible. It’s hard to tell with a movie like this, you know, what is it really? Is it the acting? Is it, the director wasn’t good enough at giving them direction? Was it just the is so bad? You know, how can you possibly deliver these lines in an effective way?

But, uh, yeah, I’m a little surprised at some of these people given their looks, you know, and general screen presence didn’t go on to do more stuff, but it might just be because this movie was severely panned when it came out. Like nobody really had anything good to say about it. 

Craig: Neither is UI.

Todd: Well, should we dive in and start not saying good things about it? 

Why 

Todd: not? This movie opens up and it’s, it’s cool because it’s such an homage, and actually this is one thing I really enjoyed about it, is it’s in many ways it’s such an homage to the films that came right before it, like say six months before it, or.

One or two years before it. It’s clearly trying to get a serious black Christmas vibe. It takes place at Christmas and there’s tons of Christmas in it. Then the, in the setting, even some of the more stylistic shots, you know, are shot like through the Christmas tree lights and things like that, but it start, it opens up just almost as black Christmas does on a large, I guess it’s supposed to be Calvin’s finishing school for girls.

Or say a sorority house. It is, yeah, kind of take your pick. That’s basically what it is. And once again, just like black Christmas, all the girls have gone home for the winter and there’s just a handful of them left with a house mother 

Craig: willing. What was that movie that we watched with uh, Jamie Lee Curtis?

Todd: Where? Prom night. 

Craig: Was it? Prom night where there was like some prank gone wrong beginning prom 

Todd: night. Okay. So same 

Craig: deal. Very much like that too. 

Todd: Well, no. We saw two with Jamie Lee Curtis where there was a prank gone wrong prom night, had them very similar to this. It was a bunch of kids though, right? They were chasing the kids through the, the abandoned place up to a high place, and then they, 

Craig: Oh yeah, that’s not what I’m talking about.

I’m talking about where like, they tricked some 

Todd: guy. Oh yes. Was that Tara train? I think those terror train. 

Craig: Yeah. I think it was. I think it was territory, yes. But it’s very much like that. Like it’s like this sorority, I guess kind of hazing thing going on. I don’t know. But these uh, sorority girls are chasing this other girl through the sorority house and the writing is so bad.

Like they’re like yelling things like sorority sorority. What? Like, what are you even talking about? And like, I think one of them has an ax, and I don’t even, I don’t even know what game this is that they’re playing, but they chase her out onto a balcony and she jumps or falls off and it’s a terrible effects.

Like they clearly just throw a dummy over the. Balcony. 

Todd: Well, it looks like she fell about two feet. I mean, yeah, 

Craig: like the, it’s not high at all. 

Todd: A shot from the balcony, which is not far away. And then a shot close up of this dummy hitting the ground and then another shot of the balcony and they go, Oh my God, she’s dead.

And then immediately credits. Yeah, the whole seed lasts like 30 seconds. It’s like the best I can say about as at least it got to the point. Yeah. So, yeah. So there we are. It’s this terrible effect. And then we’re, we’re, we come in two years later. We’re, like I said, everybody’s going home for the ER for Christmas holiday, except for about five or six girls, and then we get to meet them one by one.

And I, you know, you don’t even learn these girls names until halfway through the movie really, because. They don’t start 

Craig: usually until like right before they die. Like I had the hardest time. Yeah. And ult ultimately it doesn’t matter because it’s Nancy who’s like, you know, the good sweet girl, obviously she’s going to be the final girl, and then the rest of them are just a bunch of whores.

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: exactly. Here he is like, 

Todd: seriously, seriously, 

Craig: this movie, like they. Eventually some boys show up and they all immediately hook up with one boy, but then like after they’ve hooked up with that one boy, it’s like, ah, that was fun. Who’s next?

Todd: It’s so true. It doesn’t even matter who it is. And then if it’s not the boys, it’s the cops who come to investigate. Like, yeah, it’s, it doesn’t paint a very good picture of these ladies. And, and some people say that this film is credited with setting this genre. Some of these rules, right? That if you have sex, you die.

Or you know, if you’re slutty, you die. And if you’re the good girl or the good boy, you’re going to win out at the end. Um, I don’t know if that’s really true. Maybe it is to a certain extent, but Friday the 13th was, was doing that too, and it came out. Just before this, but this movie’s just over the top with it.

Really. It’s basically shortly after each person has sex that they get knocked off, I think. Yeah. So anyway, it’s all these girls and they’re meeting and, uh, their, their names are like Leah and I don’t know . Yeah. 

Craig: It doesn’t matter. Just 

Todd: a bunch of fours. Who cares? They’re sitting around and there’s a, 

Craig: and I’m sorry, like feminists out there.

I don’t, I don’t mean to categorize women in general in that way, but really they’re written very poorly. And I dunno, I mean, this is after the 70s. So maybe they’re kind of like clinging onto that whole free love thing, which great, you know, does your body do what you want? But 

Todd: they don’t 

Craig: come across very well, 

Todd: don’t they?

Don’t. Yeah. No, that’s good. Thank you for, for saying that, Craig. Now we’re covered. Yeah, so all these horrors they meet up. Living room. There’s a house mother, Mrs. Jensen, and the immediately mrs G, you know, they, they discuss the fact or it becomes clear that Mrs. Jensen isn’t their typical house mother.

She’s a substitute house mother. Their real house mother will be coming later. Binging, ding, ding, ding. So ms a Jetson is played by a woman who I thought I recognize as well, but I guess it hasn’t been in a whole lot. Did you look her up? 

Craig: Nope. 

Todd: Kiva Lawrence. She’s a, I think she, she did a lot more before this movie.

She also didn’t have much of a career, but she had a bit of a resemblance to, I thought, honestly, I thought she had a strong resemblance to Jason’s mother. The Friday the 13th. Same 

Craig: hairstyle. I mean, she’s a, she’s, she’s an attractive middle aged woman and she seems, you know, real nice. Um, yeah, she makes them some stew,

a cherry pie, but only for dessert. 

Todd: Hey, ms Jesse, why don’t you fix stew 

Craig: and for dessert? 

Todd: Cherry pie.

Anything you can get your hands on is your favorite.

Craig: Meanwhile, we also see, um, just somebody putting on gloves and a knife. And so obviously we know that there’s a killer running around and, uh, this person, whoever it is, has like flashbacks of the girl who died. So. I mean, it’s just really typical and there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s fine. Tons of the movies that we watch are formulaic, either in Omaj to other movies or.

Just because, and that’s fine. I don’t have a problem with that in general. It’s just very in your face like, 

Todd: okay, here’s this. It’s not subtle. 

Craig: Yeah. Okay. I get it. Somebody pissed that this girl died and they’re going to take it out on these sorority girls. 

Todd: It’s nothing if not economical. Like this shot is, uh, the guy puts on gloves, opens a drawer, pulls out a knife.

Picks up a picture of the girl and then it flashes back and forth between this picture and the shot that we had earlier of her falling. Just in case you’re not sure who she is. And then this hand angerly picks up a pen and crosses off a list of names and tosses the pen down. Gee, I wonder what they’re going to go do.

It’s, it’s funny in that way. I think this movie, I’m sorry, Craig. I enjoyed watching this movie just because of this. It was so bad. It was good. I’m putting this movie firmly in that camp from the get go. 

Craig: I was bored out of my mind. Oh no. 

Todd: Well, it wasn’t, it wasn’t exciting. Let’s put it that 

Craig: boring. It was late.

You knew what was going to happen, the beginning, you going to happen. Now there is, there is some mystery as to who the killer was. And like I had some suspicions from time to time, but I didn’t feel like it was blatantly obvious. And so I, I wondered, it could have been any number of people. It could have been the, you know, the dead girl’s friend or one of the other sorority sisters who was there.

Cause this is only two years earlier or later. Yeah. Maybe it’s her parents or another relative or somebody and. They set up like red herrings too. Like it’s so difficult to believe that either this movie wasn’t influenced by Friday the 13th or Friday the 13th wasn’t influenced by this movie because there are so many parallels down to crazy Ralph.

Like they both have a crazy Ralph. Literally that’s his name, both movies and he’s just this crazy guy. You know, I didn’t think it would be him cause I thought that that would be too obvious. But at the same time, I don’t know, it could be in these crazy, so 

Todd: knows he walks in to on, um, somebody standing in Nancy’s room and he walks in and starts talking about plants and God, uh, he, he’s, I guess he’s written to be a little religious, but he just has this dumb effect to him that he just, uh, he’s, 

Craig: you scared the hell out of me.

Ms 

Todd: Samantha asked me, looking on the plants . We’ve got sort of duty to take care of the 

Craig: plants. Yeah. 

Todd: God put them here to give us pleasure. 

Craig: What are you talking about? And this is, this is even after the first kill, like one of the girls, Cynthia, I don’t even remember who that is. Just one of these girls pretended to be sick so she could miss dinner or something.

And we find out that really there’s this guy Paul who is waiting for her outside and he like calls up to her and she’s standing there looking down and then she just takes off her clothes and stands there naked for a second. Just so we can like. Oh boy, her, there’s no reason, like, okay, hold on. I just need to get naked for a second.

The doesn’t even see it just for 

Todd: us, just for us. 

Craig: And then she, you know, she puts on some clothes, I feel like before she even gets down there, he gets attacked. By the way, the killer dresses in a Santa Claus suit. So he gets attacked and killed, and then she just walks outside and she just gets . 

Todd: Killed right away, basically walks into a knife.

I think it’s not 

Craig: even interesting 

Todd: though, 

Craig: you know? I mean, it’s just, just picking people off. 

Todd: It’s too abrupt to, I mean, there’s no real suspense in a lot of this. I mean, you kind of know what’s going to happen. So there isn’t that kind of suspense. But the girls are talking about how some guys are going to fly in and they need to keep it from the, the, from Mrs.

Jenkins, and then there’s, Oh gosh, there’s another scene where Mrs. Jenkins and Ralph and this woman who comes in and. If I’m not mistaken, never. Shows up again in the movie. 

Craig: She doesn’t, her name’s Tina, and she brought a canola and that’s it.

I brought a canola. Alright, thanks Tina. Bye. 

Todd: She’s got a lot of mean things to say about everybody, and then she leaves and I thought, okay, well I wonder what we’re going to see her again? Nope, not a bit. So, uh, so yeah, they have the seed and then the girls are all talking about how they need to, they, they ask Nancy to slip something into the tea that she’s going to bring upstairs from mrs Jenkin who’s sitting there sewing.

It’s going to put her to sleep so that they can. Bring these guys in 

Craig: and stupid and stupid. Nancy’s like, why do I always have to do all the dirty work? The other girls are like, cause nobody would ever suspect you excuse. There’s a fricking giddy, giddy or whatever. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So she does, it’s not even tea. It’s like warm milk, like warm milk.

Never. I’ve never in my life. Known anybody to actually drink warm milk. I think this is only a movie thing. 

Todd: I think so too, 

Craig: but in the movies, people drink warm milk 

Todd: all the time. Oh my God. I’ve never seen so many people drink milk as in this movie. If they’re, if they’re not going to the fridge for a beer, they’re going for milk.

There’s no other drink that is. Like, really, I kind of stopped drinking milk. Well, at least by high school.

So anyway, these guys, there’s a bunch of terrible day for night that just looks like it was shot outdoors during the night. It was 

Craig: awful. Yeah, it’s like broad daylight. 

Todd: They’re running around with flashlights that aren’t even on and they’re like, thank God there’s this throw off line. Thank God for that airstrip.

And apparently there is, there is literally an airstrip. Just within a short walking distance of this house and they film it really close. So they’re trying to hide the fact that this airstrip is out in the middle of a freaking desert. They’re like mountains. Far away is this open field, but we’re supposed to believe that this house that is surrounded by woods is basically right on the other side of this.

So all these guys land, and guess what? They’re all getting off the plane in Santa’s suits. So now it could be anybody, right? 

Craig: Who’s the County? I didn’t even notice that. 

Todd: Yeah. And, and it’s funny because apparently only one of the people in here, one girl knows one guy, but as all the guys get off the plane, the rest of the girls just grab one and go, Oh, you’re cute.

And walk off. Yeah. Just like you said, and they run into weird Ralph on the way out, and he’s like, you girl shouldn’t be out here. I’ll go away. Weird Ralph. Okay. And then they tell the pilot, the guys turned around and tell the pilot to stay with the plane. Okay. Now, by the way, the pilot is Harry Reems and he literally said.

Stays with the play and like 

Craig: the whole movie for days, 

Todd: he is in a sleeping bag underneath the plane waiting instead of being invited to this house, which is just about a five minute walk away. I 

Craig: also thought that was hilarious. Like why wouldn’t you put your sleeping bag in the plane? Like why is he sleeping on the, and I don’t know.

Maybe it’s nice there 

Todd: around 

Craig: Christmas. I would think it would be cold. 

Todd: That one would think, well, they’re supposed to be like, there’s never snow, I guess outside is there? Sure. No, I don’t think so. Even still, it looks like the Plains in the desert, so that would be hard to believe anyway. So they all end up singing by the fire and they have their moments.

Again, it’s just so black Christmas it’s trying to conjure up is warm fee friendly feeling. And for the most part it does. I think, uh, it feels cozy, cozy in this house. This guy’s a terrible singer. At least somebody calls him out on it. He calls himself out. 

Craig: He’s like, I’m a terrible singer. Yes sir, you are.

Todd: And uh, and then another shot of Santa’s in the basement sharpening the next murder weapon, which is going to be some garden shears, big, big garden sheers. And at this point, a, I dunno, a girl leaves and gets her next lit. I don’t remember 

Craig: how that happened. Tricia. Tricia, I don’t know. She had like an Australian accent.

Todd: She goes to get some milk. Probably I’m going to go get a beer. That’s what it was. At first, I thought she was French and then Australian, and then it sounded really British, uh, toward the end. So 

Craig: yeah, I couldn’t tell whatever. She goes off to get some beers. She gets killed. And then whatever guy she had hooked up with, he goes looking for, he get, he has a.

Fight with Santa Ana last, I don’t know, maybe five seconds, and then he gets killed. 

Todd: Go. Yeah. That’s Tom Tom, who I wish we had seen more of. Tom, who’s set up to be the jokester, tells about two jokes before he leaves and they’re really dumb. 

Craig: Hell’s Trisha with the bear. Maybe she left you

with my HR.

I’m sure is funny. He was one of the more interesting guys though, at least. But he gets killed really early on, and then we see that Santa is burying these bodies. Like why? Like why? Why are you taking the time to like set up a graveyard in the backyard? Like just go dump them in the. Garbage.

Todd: Well, w during that tussle that they have, the music that comes on, I thought actually the music, it was really interesting. It was weird. A little different from the mute. I mean, it’s, it’s along the same vein of the music that we typically get for these films, but there was something very dissonant about it that really made it, I don’t know, that was just my feeling.

It just comes in here and there a few times I thought for a moment, David Hess would have scored it, but it’s just a guy named Richard Tufo who hasn’t done anything of note. 

Craig: And then I just have in my notes a couple makes out, I think that it’s Leah and, uh, TJ make it out. And then. She does a dance in a leotard with a tray of 

Todd: food.

I know what is 

Craig: happening. It’s so bizarre. And then Nancy is like walking around outside and she hears like. Sex noises. 

Todd: So 

Craig: she goes over to the window and watches TJ and Leah have sex for a while. I’m like, what is wrong with you? Haven’t you ever heard of porn? Like you shouldn’t be standing outside the window watching your friend get 

Todd: a phone.

Craig: That is weird. 

Todd: Craig. Remember, this is the early eighties we, I don’t even think we had VHS tapes at this point yet. If you wanted porn, you had to go get some eight millimeter. You had to find it from some CD guy, probably on New York street and then set up a, 

Craig: I don’t know. There were magazines. Come on, come on Nancy.

Don’t watch your friends have sex. That’s creepy. I mean, unless they asked you to and then that’s different story 

Todd: right. Nobody’s asking Nancy. In fact, they’re doing the opposite. They’re all being like, don’t worry, Nancy, you’ll have your day soon, and then run off with this other guy. It’s like there’s there one guy short, aren’t they?

Nobody ever thought of Nancy really. Uh, from the very beginning when they brought these guys in 

Craig: and until they’d already boned somebody else and then she was fair game. 

Todd: Yeah, for sure. Well, I love this. The super slutty girl. Um, the one, 

Craig: all of them, they, Oh, melody, melody, melody, this sexy brunette. 

Todd: Besides that, I th she keeps calling them Einstein.

Uh, but his name is Tom. 

Craig: Ralph. No, not Ralph Ralph, some creepy guy. Alex. Alex is the eLearning 

Todd: boy. Alex is the nerdy, inexperienced, he’s supposed to be the male equivalent to Nancy. 

Craig: Hold up just real quick. Nancy gets walks away from those people having sex just in time for somebody who is apparently hiding in a suit of armor to shoot the guy through the head with an arrow and then cut off the head of.

The girl that’s all carry on. 

Todd: All right. That’s about as quick as it happens yet. Yeah. It’s a little shocking, but the effects in this movie are terrible. Like. Aside from the arrow through the head gag, which we get an air through the head, we get an air through the body at some point. Um, the throat slit, we get a little bit of the aftermath of that.

The chopping off of the head is a dummy head rolling away. Uh, you don’t really get much Gore. That’s, that’s up close and personal in this movie. 

Craig: Well, there’s one, there’s one kill coming up layer that doesn’t even make any sense, but I’ll save that for when we get there. Go ahead. 

Todd: I like how, um, melody seduces Alex upstairs, because Alex is sitting there, she’s basically dressed in a bikini and she looks hot and she’s standing right in front of him and she’s like, don’t you like it?

And he’s looking down at some paper or something, doing math equations or something, and he’s like, kind of glances up. Oh, uh, yeah. Yeah, that, that’s really great.

Well, I, I think a better show me to my room exactly what I had in mind. I think I had too much to drink. Half a beer. You might be checking out on me. What’d you

come over? And Einstein, it’s time for your advanced course in relativity. God. 

Craig: And then, and then she’s like. You’ve never even done it before, have you? He’s like, done it. What do you mean? She’s like, you know it

Todd: and 

Craig: this stupid guy. I mean, come on. I can understand like if he had a objection to premarital sex or something, that’s one thing. But like he’s just distracted by like math, like come on. This gorgeous girl is literally throwing herself at him. I mean, she says it, she’s like, Ooh, I’m going to do it with the newbie.

And he’s like. Oh, I don’t know. Either. You don’t want to, or you do like stop pussyfooting around? Like 

Todd: who buys your short? I do, yeah. Oh, I’m sorry.

Oh 

Craig: God 

Todd: are be changing that melody. 

Craig: Oh, melody. Oh, Oh, nothing. Oh my God.

Oh, it’s so silly. And then, you know, we don’t see anything, but it’s definitely implied that they did it. But then what’s hilarious to me is that then the next day, like now that he’s had sex one time, he’s like, this little . Sorry. Oh, like making all these innuendo jokes and like coming on to Nancy and all it took for him was to get laid once and like, now he’s like this Mac daddy.

Like, Hey baby. Like, Oh, come 

Todd: on. 

Craig: I mean, I get it. Yeah. Melody was hot. I get it. But 

Todd: no, you, you failed to mention. Because this is significant in its stupidity about the kill scene between those two, uh, that it was actually a suit of armor coming to life that killed them both. Here’s 

Craig: your, now you’re going back.

You’re talking 

Todd: about. Yeah, I’m going back. 

Craig: I don’t know. I can’t keep track of these people. I didn’t care who they were and I 

Todd: the two that Nancy was looking in on, the guy that with the crossbow and got the head chopped off, it was not as a guy in a Santa suit. It was a suit of armor that had been standing patiently in the corner of the room that 

Craig: whole time.

So he took a while to watch them as well. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, whatever. 

Todd: So we’re 35 minutes into the movie by now and Nancy, by the way, Nancy is just wandering around aimlessly drinking milk through this whole thing, not running into any of this 

Craig: and everybody else, like it’s, it’s the morning and everybody else is sitting at a table together, like five people being partners and they’re like, they’re swapping partners.

And Nancy is sitting off at a different table by herself looking pathetic, just like looking at them like, what the hell. Like, why did they eat, why is this girl even there? Like why is she even in their sorority, 

Todd: she doesn’t fit in. But then also like nobody wa, once again, nobody seems to care where everybody else is 

Craig: paying any attention.

Oh, Oh yeah. They’re like, where’s everybody else? Cause a bunch of them are already dead. And they’re like, Oh, I’m sure they’re just off doing something. And then even when they find out that like. People are dead. Then there’s still like, Oh, I’m sure they’re fine.

Todd: People are dead. 

Craig: Yeah. So the cops 

show 

Todd: up, double Ralph dies, Ralph dies. That’s what brings disease up. Yeah. 

Craig: Oh, that’s right. Cause no, I did. I did. I didn’t really understand how he died. He had like a big gash in his head. Like he got axed in the head, I guess. 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, nobody knows for sure. They just

Showed like they’re running around in the woods and suddenly he 

Craig: appears 

Todd: he’s still standing and then he slumps over kind of thing. 

Craig: Yeah, weird. Whatever. Okay, so then the cops show up in this guy named Polanski. I don’t even know why I wrote that down. Doesn’t make any difference, but they show up and they’re like, uh, we don’t know what’s going on, but, uh, just hang out here and I’m going to leave a couple of guys to look out for you.

And then the guy who leaves Polanski’s like. I don’t want either. You guys judging any of these girls cause their parents are powerful. No. Oh my God, 

Todd: I love this though. Polanski doesn’t look a lot like a detective. He looks more like a swinger. He’s got this plaid jacket and suit on. And when he goes over and he has this conversation with Nancy that’s so weird.

She’s all concerned about, Oh, are we going to be okay or whatever? And he walks over and he puts his hand under her chin and he looks 

Craig: weird. He likes strokes, your face for like 30 seconds. I’m like, EOS. 

Todd: Yeah. I stopped 

Craig: watching 

Todd: me and then he lingers there for a little bit staring at her and I’m like, are they going to make out?

Like, yeah. 

Craig: That was bizarre. I’d forgotten about that. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: and then I just have in my notes in fighting like, I don’t even remember what they were fighting about. The young people argue 

Todd: about stuff. It’s the typical, 

Craig: typical, I guess. I don’t know, like everything’s going to be fine. No, I’m really scared.

Like. Okay. And so then Alex is making the moves big time on Nancy. Cause now he’s like this, you know, Romeo or whatever. And then I just have in my notes, Mrs. Jensen has shady. Why do I have that. What did, because it was shady, 

Todd: she just  cause she’s just as unconcerned as the rest of them to be fair. But yeah, I mean, she’s responsible for these kids, but she doesn’t seem to care.

She wanders down the stairs and she just says a few things. Oh, I’m sure they’ll turn up just like everybody else. And why don’t we just go in and get eat some cake? It’s just, yeah. And, and, and the, the thing about Mrs. Jensen being shady, I think at this point is we realize that this other house mother’s supposed to come and replace her.

She hasn’t shown up yet. And you’re sort of reminded of that fact. That Mrs. Jensen really doesn’t even belong in this group. She’s an outsider. That’s the point where I was like, okay, well, clearly Mrs. Johnson did it. 

Craig: Well, I don’t know. I wasn’t necessarily thinking that yet, but you keep saying like she’s not even supposed to be there.

I thought that she was just like an assistant mother or whatever at Lilly because they all seem familiar with her. It’s not like she seems like she’s a stranger. I didn’t get that vibe. I just thought that. The woman who was in charge wasn’t there and was coming back. I don’t know. Ultimately it doesn’t matter, but she was acting shady and then Leah, who’s probably the hoariest of the mall.

Flirts with the gross old cop like blah. And she’s like, if you need anything, just holler. And he’s like, holler. And she giggles is like maybe later and then 10 minutes she’s in bed with them. 

Todd: Like Rose, 

Craig: what is a wrong with you? You have self esteem problem. 

Todd: TJ, who she was making out with earlier, doesn’t he end up wandering upstairs?

He looks in and sees that they’re making out, kind of gives a smirk and goes back downstairs. 

Craig: Yes. And then he hooks up with melody. What was so funny to me was before that, I don’t even remember who Leah was talking to, maybe Nancy, but she was like, I’m pretty sure this is the boy I’m going to marry. Yeah.

And, and Nancy’s like, what? And she’s like. Well, he’s really ranch boning, the gross old cop 

Todd: upstairs 

Craig: doing it. I don’t understand your character motivation.

Todd: Well, the house is being patrolled not very well, clearly by the cops who were boning the chicks. Melody’s making eyes at TJ now, so he goes downstairs and making out with her. At some point I wrote down here, the cop, the pilot is still out by the plane 

Craig: and and Santa kills one of the detectives, and I thought this was an interesting scene because it seems like the detective knows who it is, like he’s like.

What are you doing out here in this silly get up or whatever. I’ll get right back in the head, which again, very Friday the 13th the same exact thing happens. The male director of the camp is out looking around and it’s a killer POV shot and he’s like, Oh, it’s you. What are you doing out here? And then it gets killed.

I mean, just, there are so many beats in this movie that are so similar. It’s just really hard to believe that they, that there was no influence one way or the other. I don’t know. 

Todd: No, I don’t believe, I don’t believe at one bit. Well, TJ and melody go outside and they’re making out under a tree, and this is a long make-out scene.

And then inside Alex is, is Macedon Nancy, and they’re having their moment by the fire and it looks like they’re going to hook up. And I love, I love the lines here. They stand up and Alex takes her bar or whatever out of her hair to let her hair down.

Craig: You are beautiful. I know. I just rolled my eyes like, this is so 

Todd: stupid. Well, he’s new. He’s new to this makin thing, you know? 

Craig: I guess, but like even, except for melody, who is like. Blatantly sexy, you know, she’s got the big boobs and very stereotypically, physically attractive. Aside from her, Nancy’s the cutest of all of them.

The others are, 

Todd: it’s true. 

Craig: Nothing to write home about. It’s not that they’re not attractive, they just look like real people. They don’t look like movie star people, 

Todd: you know? 

Craig: Melody does. And Nancy has kind of the sweet girl next door kind of look going on. I don’t know, movies do this stuff all the time.

Like, Oh, if only, I didn’t have this ponytail in 

Todd: glasses. 

Craig: Okay, yeah, you’re a dog. You’re a real dog. After a Leah bangs, the old cop, she finds. Somebody to capitate it, head in the shower, and then Santa kills the cop. And then it seems like he kills Leah, but he doesn’t cause she shows up later. And this is the time you were talking about TJ.

And melody, and they go outside and they have this make-out scene. Now this is the kill that I say doesn’t make any sense at all, because first of all, they had to set it up in a totally unrealistic way, like they’re making out, and then all of a sudden it cuts away from them and it cuts back and they’re standing a good.

Foot away from one another, or at least their heads are a foot away from one another and she’s like fingering his gums. I don’t even know what was happening. And like, he almost looks like he’s unconscious, like he’s not even reacting at all. But it was also that they could dangle this wire news down in between them and get it up under his neck.

And once they do get it under his neck, then he gets pulled up. And not only is he being hung, but it’s like wire. So his throat is getting cut too. But then they show us what he’s hanging from and it’s just the killer Santa’s holding like a kite spool thing him up. 

Todd: It 

Craig: doesn’t make any sense. This is a big guy, 

not 

Craig: a fat guy, but a big muscular guy, and I’m supposed to believe this.

Santa can just lift him up in the air on a kite spool and he’s gonna. Hang there and die. It was one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen in my life. 

Todd: Yeah, it was pretty dumb. And then also the fact that, Oh, the Santa also happened to make it up into this random tree that they’ve decided to make out on.

All right, so they’re dead. Then this point, you know, the Alex and melody go run around and basically start and Nancy 

Craig: and Nancy, I mean, it’s the classic. Again, it happens in a Friday, the 13th to now and Friday the 13th is just the one girl, I think her name was Alice, but it’s that run around and find all the dead people seeing.

Todd: Yep. 

Craig: Um, so that you know that something’s going on. 

Todd: And run into Leo who is now on out dancing around. She’s got her 

Craig: clothes. She’s like a dead eye. 

Todd: Yeah, she’s got her clothes back on. She’s got her head’s in the here, your hands in the air and she’s seeing like, she’s gone totally loopy. And I was like, what is going on?

Craig: Well, and she’s got crazy makeup on. I feel like, like she looks like that giggling girl from evil dead. They, yeah. It’s, it’s crazy. 

Todd: And they don’t react too much to this. I mean, they’re like, Oh, there’s Leo. Okay, well let’s keep going and grab Leah. Come on, Leah, follow us. What are you doing? And I thought, Oh, is she in on this?

Like what happened? Cause she was approached by Santa, by the neck, with a knife in the shower, just like a scene. Two scenes before this. Uh, so we thought she was dead and now she or she is fully clothed and just skipping around. So I think the implication by the, at the end of the day is that she’s going crazy.

Craig: Like she’s been driven mad by fear or something, I guess. 

Todd: And why did Santa spare her? 

Craig: Who knows? 

Todd: Well, anyway, 

Craig: I don’t know. But this is where the big reveal comes. I mean, I don’t even know. 

Todd: Well, melody runs out because TJ has gotten garroted by the, by the wire. So melody runs out because she’s outside. So she runs to the plane and this is where we see the plane guy.

Um, Harry Rhames is a sleeping underneath the plane in his. In his sleeping bag bag. So she says, come on, we’ve got to get the plane. Got, got to get the plane started. Everybody’s dead. And he’s like, okay, okay. So he gets up and he, but the plane’s like not working or something, and he’s like, Oh, I’ve got to fix the generator or something.

So he’s by the wing. It’s a prop plane, I guess, and he’s by the wing. He’s got his screwdriver out and he’s trying to fix something and we see that Santa is now inside the plane. This guy, this Santa can really teleport pretty much anywhere. It needs to be.  in this movie, whether it’s, you know, in a tree in this plane, inside of a suit of armor or whatever.

And uh, as soon as he gets this going, apparently Sante knows enough to start the plane up. And, uh, the idea is that those propellers start spinning and hack the two of them to bits. We don’t really see it. We just see blood go. 

Craig: Well, you’re absolutely right. I have to think that this was an added scene because Santa’s.

Is stalking Nancy and Alex in the house, and then there’s this whole melody scene where Santa is, and then it immediately comes back to the house and meanwhile, Nancy has just been hiding under a bed for like a half an hour play. Who else? Santo was off doing the plane thing. 

Todd: Uh, 

Craig: it’s, it’s really stupid, whatever.

Anyway, but 

Todd: we’ll, Alex is gone. We don’t really know where Alex is at this point. I 

Craig: don’t know what happened. 

Todd: Nancy’s running around and we’re following her. Uh, the other girl is just, Leah is just skipping around and, uh, so it becomes this Santa stalking Nancy. Throughout the house and ends up, just like in most of these movies, she’s running upstairs when she should be running downstairs.

So she gets higher and higher in the house and she runs into a room and out onto that same balcony that the girl had fallen from and Sante follows her. But with the knife. And at this point, we know 

Craig: it’s been revealed. I don’t remember exactly when it was, but it has been revealed in very Friday, the 13 fashion that Mrs.

Jensen is the killer. And you know, I mean, it’s almost, you could run the two monologues. Of mrs Vorhees and Mrs. Jensen, you know, side by side, they’re almost exactly the same. You killed my daughter, it was your fault, blah, blah, blah. And Nancy’s like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I wasn’t even here.

But apparently she just blames anybody who is in this sorority or whatever. So she’s chasing her around and they end up out on the balcony. And this happens so quickly that I don’t even remember exactly how it happens, but somehow. Mrs. Jensen ends up going over the balcony and she’s presumably dead. 

Todd: It doesn’t happen.

I mean, it happens, but there’s no shot of it. It’s like Mrs. Jensen is chasing her. Nancy’s out on the balcony, and then suddenly there’s a shot of Mrs. Jensen hitting the ground or on the ground, and then it looks up at me and I was like, okay. So she fell. 

Craig: Nancy just goes inside and starts crying, and here’s where the twist is.

She’s sitting there crying, like covering her face, and all of a sudden we just see from the back us Santa’s carrying another Santa and he’s sets her down and apparently Nancy is oblivious to all of this. He takes off his mask, and again, I didn’t even recognize him. I didn’t know who he was. 

Todd: Yeah. Cause you didn’t see them much in the movie at all.

Craig: Right. But he identifies himself. Well, he says you killed my wife and you killed my daughter. So I just wrote down. Okay. The other Sante is Jensen’s husband. I didn’t even make the connection that he was the 

Todd: pilot. He’s not the pilot guy. No, he was Polanski. Polanski. He 

Craig: is, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: Oh my God. Yeah. I thought Plansky got killed.

Todd: No, no, no, no, no. It was the, it was the two other guys who got killed. Okay. Polanski left them both. Yeah. Polanski left them both to patrol. Yeah. That’s how kind of sloppy this movie is. It doesn’t really set these things up for you properly to where you’re going to remember them. This character comes in for one scene and leaves and then surprise, he’s the husband of this wife, so I guess this is, 

Craig: hold on.

I’m looking at IMDV right now and it says Harry Reems and he is credited as the pilot. 

Todd: Yeah. That’s not Harry Reems at the end. That’s . 

Craig: Okay. Okay. All right. 

Todd: Gary reams gets it, uh, as the pilot gets it with the, the 

Craig: potpie. See, I see. 

Todd: So it’s. But yeah, but I mean it’s, it’s really hard to tell. It’s, it’s, it’s very confusing.

And this is, I guess, supposed to explain how these, the Santa can teleport so much, like how they can be in so many places at once. But once again, it’s, it’s still too convenient, even for two people. It’s hard to believe that these two people are coordinated and can be in all these places and sneak into these.

Like sneak into the plane while they’re standing right there. Go, go up into a tree where these two people are there, be in a suit of armor waiting in the corner. Just hoping that somebody is going to make out in front of them so that they can come alive. And you know, ACSM not that all slasher movies don’t do this to a certain extent, but they’re trying to create this twist and trying to make this clever and it just doesn’t work.

Craig: I don’t know. I mean, it surprised me because I didn’t expect there to be two killers. But I mean, that’s it. Like, 

Todd: well, and that’s an innovation on the Friday the 13th right? The two killers. But it’s not like, Oh, so that’s why. Oh no, I get it. It’s not so clever to really throw it in your face. Now, wait a minute.

How could one killer do all this stuff? I mean, that’s what I was thinking, but I was just, yeah, it wasn’t that smart. So what happens is he goes after her and then suddenly Alex, who we haven’t seen for like 10 minutes, suddenly Springs up, uh, on. It’s kind of a, an over, over, what do you call it? Overhang whenever in the room, like a balcony balcony, and he’s got the crossbow and he shoots it and gets.

Mr. Jenkins, uh, 

Craig: through the chest, and then we see Liam maniacally singing and dancing on the balcony and that’s it. 

Todd: Yeah. And there she is. Crazy at the house. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know, dude. I thought this, this was for me, this was in a so bad. It’s good camp. I enjoyed watching it just because what was happening on the screen.

Was hilarious. Most of the time the dialogue was laugh out loud. Funny. The characters didn’t make any sense. Like you say, the girls were painted very, very slutty basically. And the nudity in there is too gratuitous. And if the Kilz had been more skillfully done, more suspenseful and more interesting, and maybe even a little more graphic.

It’s the kind of movie that’s begging for that. And it’s disappointing. That doesn’t give you that, you know? Uh, it probably. Would have been, I mean, it’s never would have impressed the critics, but again, it probably would have been a little bit better remembered, I think, than it has been now. I don’t know.

It’s hard to find this movie. It was released on DVD. Apparently there was some fan outcry and some people wanted a DVD release and it ended up getting a DVD release, which apparently fixed a problem with the VHS release in that for the longest time. The only copy of this movie you could get ahold of was so dark that it was almost unwatchable.

And if you go to YouTube, you can find this movie in a couple different versions. The VHS version that I found initially on YouTube was really, really dark, but then later I was able to find a version with Greek subtitles that looked like it was pulled from the DVD transfer, and it was, it was very watchable.

Craig: Yeah, that’s the one I watched it and it didn’t look bad at all. I could see everything that was happening. I don’t know, like I didn’t enjoy it now. Maybe it was again, I wasn’t watching it at night. I. I was actually really kind of trying to squeeze it in like it was kind of a chore and I was bored. 

Todd: I didn’t, you were not in the mood.

Craig: No, I was, and I was bored. Like the characters were unlikable. The kills weren’t that interesting. The story was too familiar. There wasn’t anything that stood out. You know, like if the cinematography had been. Interesting. If the acting had been good, if the writing had been good, if the kills had been more unique, I don’t think that it’s a terrible story.

I think that somebody could potentially, you know, kind of rewrite the script and keep the central elements, but make it a little bit smarter and do more. Creative stuff with it. I don’t think that’s a terrible idea. I just think the execution was bad and you know, it’s low budget. It was shot over 10 days, but I’ve seen other things that were low budget and shot on a very tight schedule that I’ve enjoyed very much, and this just did not do it for me at all.

I would not tell, you know, if people were, I would come up with 20 other. Christmas or movies to recommend before I would recommend this one, not for me. 

Todd: How much worse really is this then any one of say a half a dozen Friday the 13th movies. 

Craig: Ah, gosh. I don’t know. 

Todd: Cause it’s kind of the same thing. Um, 

Craig: it is, it is kind of the same thing, but those movies, one, they had more Gore, which I.

Appreciate in this, John rhe 

Todd: to 

Craig: the kills were a little bit more interesting. Um, three, the antagonist was more interesting, you know, maybe if I, maybe a Friday the 13th never existed, and then I had seen this movie. Maybe I would have felt differently about it, but it just feels like a cheap, not as good copy.

I was surprised, you know. I don’t even think Friday the 13 part one was the first one I had ever seen. And so when I actually did see the first one, I’m sure that I knew, um, the twist, uh, at the end that it was mrs war. He’s all along. But Hammel uh. Whatever her name is. I can’t think of it off the top of my head.

Her performance was in gaging, you know, she really came across as crazy and willing to do whatever she had to do for revenge, and I liked the final girl better. You know, what’s her name in this movie? Janet, or no, excuse me. Jennifer Runyon. She’s cute. But she’s not an amazing actress. Um, not to say that the girl from Friday the 13th was either, I was just so much more invested in that movie.

I thought it was scarier. I didn’t think that this movie was scary. 

Todd: It was scary at all. No, it definitely wasn’t scary. It was Christmassy. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and again, I am glad that we continue to find. Christmas horror movies. I really enjoy it. I look forward to it every year and finding stuff that we haven’t seen before.

You know, that makes me happy, and that excites me. So at least there’s that. Um, but like I said, there are so many better ones. I don’t think it’s worth 

Todd: wasting. Go see black Christmas again. Yeah, flat 

Craig: Christmas is amazing and they have now done two remakes of black Christmas, neither of which we have other ever covered.

I think next year we may have to bite the bullet and doing these. One of those remakes, 

Todd: I, boy, I don’t know how to turn. I’m ready to watch a remake of black Christmas, but. You’re right, it’s almost our duty. We almost need to, 

Craig: the first remake I saw, and I didn’t care for it at all, but I’d be really interested to see what you thought of it.

And, uh, the most recent remake just came out this last weekend and it performed very poorly at the box office. I think it made like four point $5 million or something on a pretty big budget. Uh, and I know that they made some significant changes, but. It also has gotten some pretty decent reviews, so I’ll definitely check it out.

But, um, no, I mean, black Christmas is great. Black Christmas is great. Krampus is great, gremlins is great. There are tons of great core 

Todd: Christmas movies. Even M was a Christmas evil. 

Craig: That one. 

Todd: Yeah, I really liked it. Yeah. All right. Well, that’s none of those are this movie, 

Craig: sadly. 

Todd: Thanks again for listening and happy holidays to you all.

We do have one more Christmas movie coming up next week, and we’re excited about it because it’s. It’s been recommended to us and it does seem quite unique. It’s a foreign film and we’ll just leave it to next week to let you know what it is. 

Craig: I’ve already watched it. I’m excited to talk to some about it.

Todd: If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. You can go on our Facebook page. Leave us a message there. You can also find our website and two guys. Dot. Red 40 net dot. Tom. We also now have a YouTube channel. If you just search for us, go to two guys and a chainsaw. Our YouTube channel, we’re just trying to get a new audience.

Just introduce a wider group of people to our podcast. Other podcasts do this and it seems to work for them. So if you happen to have a YouTube account, do us a favor, just go to our channel and subscribe to it. And that way we can up our subscriber numbers, maybe get a little more noticed and be able to do more fun things on YouTube.

Happy holidays. And until next week, I’m Todd 

Craig: and I’m Craig 

Todd: with Two Guys and a Chainsaw

Something unique for us: An Indian slasher film that takes place in an abandoned shopping mall at Christmas time. And we make history by reviewing the very first Indian film ever on our podcast. If you’re so inspired to see it yourself, check it out on Netflix now. Enjoy!

Hide And Seek (2010)

Episode 197, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig 

Todd: It’s slow. We’re smack dab in the middle of the Christmas month, Christmas month. And so of course, as always, we’re looking for Christmasy horror films. And this week we found a woman that I wonder if many of our listeners have ever even seen before I happen to stumble across it on Netflix.

I was looking for Christmas movies and this movie called hide and seek from 2010 came up and I looked at it and. It wasn’t immediately obvious that it was a horror movie, but upon further review, I could see, Oh, this is a slasher film, but it’s Indian. So I thought, wow. I don’t know. I’m Craig. Have you ever seen any Indian movies before?

Any Bollywood type films? 

Craig: I don’t think so. I know. Seen clips and scenes, but I don’t think that I’ve ever actually sat down and watched a full Bollywood film. And so I was actually kind of looking forward to this, cause I know it’s a big deal. You know, like Bollywood I think brings in a lot of money in India and in other parts of the world.

You know, it’s a. As the name would suggest. It’s very similar to our Hollywood, and so yeah, I, I haven’t seen much, but I was looking forward to it 

Todd: when some ways I’m around the world, it’s even, it can, it’s arguably even bigger than Hollywood, or at least a super close second as far as influence. Um, number of people that watch it.

Of course, India is a highly populous country. It’s also been said that Indians like movies more than anybody else. They just go to the cinema a lot. Now, all of this is hearsay, secondhand information stuff I’ve read online. I’m definitely not an expert in Bollywood, but what I have read is that if you go to the cinema in India is quite an affair.

It’s loud, it’s noisy, there’s lots of food, and then you usually, all of these movies have songs in them. Yeah, and, and I can kind of attest to the few of Bollywood films I’ve seen. I’ve seen romaine, I’ve seen like long kind of Epic three hour family dramas. I’ve seen romance stories, I’ve seen comedies, I’ve seen like one that was a super agent type film, like a James Bond thing.

Every single one of these, at some point. Multiple points during the movie. There are songs, and we’re not talking like, like a musical, like in the U S where the song kind of advances the plot or you know, there’s kind of singing about what they’re doing. Not necessarily often it’s just they stop and there’s this really long song and dance.

Number where everybody just breaks into these synchronized dances and it’s a little, it seems weird. It’s its own thing, but it’s highly entertaining. I mean, it’s really quite quite cool. I guess it’s just as absurd as people breaking into song for any reason, really in the middle of a story. But then people that are usually when they go to the theater, they already know these songs, like the songs for the latest movies are like playing on the radio, or they get really, really popular.

And the songs will often drive people to the movie theater to see the movie. And so it’s sing along our. For a lot of folks in the theaters when they go see these movies. So. I was actually expecting to, maybe I thought, Oh gosh, this will be really interesting if we have this like slasher movie and they break into song and dance in the middle of it.

Right. It didn’t happen, 

Craig: sadly. 

Todd: So what was interesting about it, and. I think this is kind of what came up in a few of the things that I read online is this is almost a first attempt. I mean, I hesitate to say that because I don’t know for sure, but at least it was a pretty one of the more earnest recent attempts to actually make a Hollywood style sort of slasher mystery type film in India.

With the Indian actors in the Bollywood system. So they tried really hard to mimic or imitate this sort of movie and they did it. But definitely with these Indian characteristics that, uh, that I thought were quite interesting and are going to be fun for us to talk about, even if, I don’t know, how did you care for the movie?

Craig: I dunno, you know, when you recommended it, I looked it up on Netflix and like the still frames that accompany the. Listing, they looked pretty good. I mean, it looked pretty high quality, and when I started watching it, I was initially intrigued. There was some interesting stuff going on. Ultimately, I don’t think that it, uh, it wasn’t really for me.

You know, it, it felt a little copycat. Ish. And that’s so not fair. That’s so not fair for me to say as a horror movie reviewer, you know, like there are so many movies that follow similar tropes. But, um, this one had like major, major shades of, I know what you did last summer and other. Revenge type movies like that.

It did have some interesting twists, which I appreciated. I found it to be a little bit predictable, but you know, it wasn’t bad. I didn’t think it was terrible. There. I, there are going to be things that I’m going to be critical of, but I don’t know. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I didn’t like it. Um, but anyway, we’ll get into it as we go.

Todd: Yeah. Well it is a Christmas movie cause it does end up taking place in the Christmas time. The credit sequence opens up with the, your sort of typical newspaper clippings on a wall with things circled and you know, ominous stuff sitting on tables and whatever it looks like a serial killer who’s planning some big event.

You know, his, his layer has. 

Craig: As CSI board or serial killer board, 

Todd: either a detective or the people that are looking for, it’s one of those two and but it’s intercut with some carefully chosen scenes of what we learn is flashback. Um, just some stuff that has happened among a group of five friends in the past.

Craig: Well, and it’s all very quick cut to like, yeah, so you don’t know what’s going on. Like you see some like joyful kind of party scenes, and then you see somebody doing a line of Coke and then you see. Some violence, but it’s all so quickly that there’s no way that you can piece it together. But it’s kind of dropping hints as to what happened at this party, which, as you said, ends up being in the past in the context of the movie.

But that’s how. It opens up. We open up, I mean, we don’t know in the moment that it’s the past, but after we see these initial scenes, then it cuts to 12 years later, and that’s where we spend most of our time. 

Todd: Yeah, and the movie kind of focuses around this guy named OAM, who’s a young guy. I put him at like late twenties early thirties I guess.

Yeah. And he wakes up, there’s some pills and a snow globe behind him. He seems a little distraught, and his aunt walks in and starts talking to him and through their conversation you start to realize that he is more recently, I guess back from an insane asylum or some kind of asylum. She says, do you know what day it is?

And he’s. I said, no. She says, Oh, it’s somebody’s birthday. And he starts to make a get, Oh, is it your birthday? And she says, no, it’s your birthday. What kind of a guy forgets his birthday? So you immediately, you’re, you know, setting the stage for the sky back from an insane asylum. A little off. He, uh, picks up the phone and starts talking to a woman on the other end of the phone.

Joe Tika. And as he’s in the middle, he says, Oh, will you come and see me? And the aunt puts her finger on the receiver and says, who are you talking to? And he says, I’m talking to Joe Tika. And he says, I’ve told you to stop talking about her. And they have a little dialogue.

Craig: Oh, you don’t.

What’s her photo.

I won’t. 

Todd: It’s interesting. All of this kind of, I actually went back and rewatched some of this movie because of all the twists that come along. Uh, just to see how some of these things line up and you definitely get a different feel. It’s quite clever. I gained a bit of more of an appreciation for the script after I watched through it a second time and saw how all of these things fit together.

Now you thought it was predictable. I agree. I think certain parts of it were predictable, like aspects of the general nature of the plot, but I actually felt like the twists, the ended up coming up, especially toward the end of the movie. I didn’t see coming.  

Craig: I did. 

Todd: Okay. No, that’s totally fine. Well, you blew past me.

I’m not as smart as you, Craig. That’s, 

Craig: well, obviously, but to be fair, it’s not like, Oh, I’ve got it all figured out. It was just, these questions kept popping up in my mind like, what if this, what if this, and in the end, a lot of. My suspicions ended up being true and then other suspicions didn’t. So it’s not like I had it all figured out and there, there definitely were things that I didn’t see coming and actually some twists that ended up being really dark that I the, the movie didn’t.

Strike me as being that kind of movie and for whatever reason, gosh, you know, here’s my ethnocentric attitude coming through. I, I guess I just didn’t expect something this dark in an Indian film for whatever reason. I don’t know. 

Todd: No. Well, I mean, it’s, that’s fair because most Indian India is a pretty conservative society, and most of these films, these Bali, especially the big Bollywood romance productions, things like that, they’re often about love and lust and, and all this stuff, but they’re done in a very chaste way for the screen.

And so society’s kind of like that. And so their movies, even though they might deal with some of these deeper themes on the screen, they really play out in a more innocent kind of. Chased way. And so there’s that part of, part of what was so intriguing about seeing the slasher movie was I was wondering, are they going to go there?

Are they going to, you know, do, is it going to be super bloody? Is there going to be sacks as they’re going to be some, they’re never going to be any nudity. I didn’t expect that, but was there going to be any of this? The stuff that we typically see in these movies, and there isn’t. Yet. Like you said, it’s dealing with some pretty dark subject matter at times, and so it’s a little, it’s not what we’re used to seeing.

Right. It’s a little off balance for us. It was for me anyway. 

Craig: Well, it was just unexpected for me. Some of the things, not everything, but some of the things, um, the only thing, you know, before he wakes up, we do get a little bit of this, what ends up being a flashback to this party and really kind of the only thing that we see is ohm is in love with joy.

Tika, uh, and he buys her for Christmas to show his love, this snow globe that has the Taj Mahal in it, because she’s always wanted to see the Taj Mahal, whatever, blah. But then there are two other characters, J and J UNITA. And Jay has a thing for goonie ETA, and he has also bought her, I think a snow globe or something, but it’s like cheaper and not as nice, but also the Taj Mahal.

And when he goes to present that to her, like she. She’s the one that ohm got for Joe Tika. I have such a hard time with these names just because they’re so foreign to me, but when she sees it, like she’s so impressed by it and it seems like she’s kind of got a thing for ohm too, and Jay’s like, Oh look, I got you this.

And she’s like, Oh no, but I hate you. Go away. It’s really 

Todd: harsh. Yeah. 

Craig: She’s really kind of mean to him. It kind of sets up that romantic. Quadrangle or whatever between these folks. And so there’s already a little bit. Of tension and conflict. Mostly coming from Jay, I guess, because 

Todd: I’m the asshole. Yeah.

Craig: Omen. You know, Jay are just trying to do their own thing and, and Jay and goonie to, or just kind of on the sideline. That’s what’s set up. But then we see that the, the 12 years have passed and he does get that phone call and the woman joy Tika on the other side of the phone says that she will come see him or he asks her to come see him and the aunt who he stays with is like, no, she, she ruined your life.

You were in that mental asylum for 12 years because of her. Of course he doesn’t. Care. Um, and so he looks at some old photographs of them, and then she shows up. And I have in my notes, Joe Tika visits question Mark, like, because it’s. She shows up in a very kind of ethereal way, like she’s backlit and I don’t know enough about Indian cinema.

What I do know about it is that with these like romance comedies, it’s very. Exaggerated, almost to the point that we in America would call like melodrama or even like soap opera kind of drama. Um, so I didn’t know if that was just a convention. Like, you know, the love interest is glowing from this lighting, but something was fishy to me.

I thought, but anyway, she, she shows up. Then there’s this whole again, then it’s a montage where we meet all of these other characters these 12 years later, and they all have kind of distinguishing qualities, which we can talk about. That’s fine, but ultimately it’s, I know what you did last summer. They all.

Ended up getting these notes that say I caught you, which ultimately kind of ends up bringing them back together. 

Todd: Well, there’s ABI, uh, who is his older brother, OMES older brother who is in a high powered business suit, and he’s Amelie discussing about how he’s been running this company. Apparently, I guess it’s the family business.

And once owned was sent off to the asylum, uh, he, the older brother’s angry that he didn’t get homes. Part of the inheritance and now that OMA is back, he’s honestly saying, I want him out of the picture to look his, his assistant there. And then he does snorts a line of Coke, which, so, so you know, he’s melodramatically evil, right?

And caught you, comes across the screens and the television screens that he has in his layer where he can see all these video conference room from all over. Um, then Jay is a, having somebody beat up. 

Craig: Yeah. He’s like a thug. Like he’s like a taxi Lord or something.  

Todd: that’s it. It’s India, you know, I guess Mumbai, apparently a specifically Mumbai.

So yeah. So he’s having some guy beat up. So you see, he’s like still an asshole. Uh, and then he gets a message on his cell phone that says, caught you. And then EAM Ron, who is a guy we’re seeing for the first time, is a, like an actor. I guess he’s super sexy. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah. And he’s really hot. But like, that’s the thing, like back in the day, he was like the fat one.

He was kinda like the hanger on. Um, and he was kinda like, Jay’s a Lackey kind of back in the day, apparently. And then there’s good Nita who I’ve already talked about, and she’s, I guess like kind of a famous socialite model now. Um, and that’s everybody. Okay. Now this is the. Biggest problem that I had with this movie.

First of all, there’s six of them now. Usually I can deal with six people, but these are all just kind of sexy people. And so it was hard for me to figure out who they were for awhile and it was even harder. Because in the flashback scenes, they’re played by different actors and the actors that play them in the flashback scenes look nothing like them in the current day scenes.

Todd: It’s so true. Right? 

Craig: It was so difficult to end like, I feel like at least one of the flashback actors looked like one of the other 

Todd: characters, and 

Craig: it was so hard for me to. I mean, I eventually did. I, you know, about halfway through the movie, I had it figured out who everybody was, but it was confusing at first.

I don’t know why, you know, all of these people were young and sexy enough that I think that they could have played. Both ages, you know, they could have, they could have dressed them and made them up to look younger and the flashback and then dress them and made them up to look just 12 years older. You know, it’s not like we’re talking about the difference between 80 and 20 when we’re talking about like early thirties.

Early twenties. So that was confusing. That was one of my big gripes. 

Todd: Yeah, you’re right. It did make it confusing to figure it out. Cause we keep coming back to these flashbacks and we’re supposed to be getting more information about the characters. But like you said, we’re not even sure who these people are.

Yeah. It’s a little tricky. So, um, and then after we get that montage that introduces everybody to us, we get another montage where everybody, one by one gets kidnapped. Yup. They all end up, uh, asleep and wake up together in a shopping mall on wakes up first, uh, with, uh, Joe Tika by his side. And then one by one, they wake up and they kind of wander around the mall, meet up with each other, realize w, you know, the, Oh, you’re here.

What’s the, or what’s the idea? Did you have something to do with this? And we see a little bit of that tension go on. 

Craig: They’re not happy to see each other. No joyful reunion. 

Todd: And, um, one of my favorite bits is I think that, um, Jay and ABI get into it a little bit and I think it is, um, Donita who comes in and kind of breaks it up and they run to a glass door that leads into the underground parking garage of the small, and like.

IB is like you’re shaking at the door and uh, looks like Jay is going to throw. It’s throwing a chair at the door. It seems like they should be able to break the glass in this door and leave the mall and a goonie to runs over and go, stop. What are you doing? She says, we need to figure out what’s going on first before we leave.

And so they’re like, okay. And they turn around and leave. I thought that was so lame, and my wife, who was sitting here watching it with me, looked at me and rolled her eyes as well. So 

Craig: hello

Hello. 

Todd: There’s some little things about this film as in most movies that are pretty unbelievable, like why wouldn’t they just do acts? Why can’t they just do Y? It was a little silly that before everything kind of came to a head and they realized their purpose in the mall, they were given so much time to run around or just fricking leave.

One way or another. 

Craig: This is a huge mall. I mean, it’s actually really a pretty cool set piece. Um, I don’t know. I only can assume that they probably filmed it in a real mall. It looks like a real mall. 

Todd: Oh. When it’s decked out for Christmas. So it’s, that’s what makes us kind of a nice Christmas movie, if nothing else.

Craig: Oh yeah. There’s Christmas everywhere. Everywhere is Christmas. Um, but like it doesn’t make sense. Okay. I get it’s the middle of the night that there’s no security there at all and I’m getting a little bit ahead of myself, but guns eventually come into play. Surely. Those guns could have broken the glass and they could’ve gotten them.

Yeah, right.

Todd: Good point. We’ll also, they can wander in and out of these stores at will. It’s usually don’t they usually lock 

Craig: those up like random ones are open. I don’t even know. 

Todd: They all meet up and they’re all together finally, and it’s in this open area with this big beautiful Christmas tree and all these presents underneath it as they’re fighting.

They see that Enron, Oh, has a scar on his abdomen. They look over at ABI and see that he’s got some blood on his shirt and he pulls it up. Every single one of them has a scar, like someone has cut them open right around their stomach area and at about this time, J I think it is, finds presence under the tree behind them and notices that.

Every one of the people there except for him has a labeled present under the tree. And so they kind of distribute those and people start to open them. And some of them have remote controls. ABI kind of opens his and notices that there are drugs in there. Uh, and he quickly closes it and doesn’t tell the others.

Uh, then a television screen, which I guess was just sitting there all along comes on. And there’s a guy dressed in a Santa suit, all logic saw or whatever, who starts talking to them, and it’s a little unclear at this point. This is another problem I kind of have with this movie, is that the movie’s called hide and seek.

So the Santa suit comes on and this guy in the Santa suit basically says, I know I brought you guys all together here. You’re here to finish the game that you started playing 12 years ago, but never finished. The game is hide and seek. You each have, you know, some things in your stomach that I’ve put there, and that’s gonna keep you in line.

Uh, we’ll all, you play this game. So I guess the presumption is you, if you try to escape, he’s gonna zap you. Now, what I didn’t notice before when I watched it, but of course it’s glaringly obvious when you watch it a second time, is that, uh, he keeps getting interrupted by ohm. Ohm will jump in and go like, we don’t want to play this game.

And he’ll be like, be quiet. I, you know, you’re playing this game. And that’s when they say, well, well, they can hear me. He can hear us. And they look up and they see there’s some security cameras around as well. And at one point, the Santa Claus on the screen pulls up a remote and hits a button on it. And that.

Shocks, ohm and ohm, you know, falls backwards and starts kind of convulsing on the floor to demonstrate that they have this, you know, these devices in the, my guess. Um, and so there, that’s, that’s the thing. And he says, okay, this is your game. Are you going to play? And ohms like we’ll play. And everybody else there eventually starts saying, we’ll play.

And he’s like, okay. Let the game begin and closes it right now. I don’t really know what that means. What is, how are they playing hide and seek? Did you pick up on that like, 

Craig: no.

Another thing that’s interesting is that throughout, we keep getting just very brief flashbacks to this party, and it seems like the events that are happening now are running very much parallel to the events that are happening here. In fact, at that party that they were at. There was a Santa Claus there who, I don’t even know who, that was one of them and a costume.

Was it, uh, another guy, I don’t even know who it was, but apparently they played this game all that time ago. And through these very brief flashbacks, you know, we get hints of violence and drug use and all this stuff. It was a rough night apparently, and now they, um. Have to finish the game or whatever. But no, it’s, it’s very unclear like what the parameters of this game are.

Um, he tells him that they have until 6:00 AM but until what? Like he says that, um, ABI has to find everybody by then. Okay, well, fine. So why don’t they all just go, I stand around the corner and be like, don’t find us. Don’t find it. You know, like, like, wouldn’t that make it much easier? You know, I, I don’t.

Get it, but whatever. They appear to believe that they are in peril and so they run off and omen joy Tika go together andJ  or Jai wants to partner up with goonie, but she is apparently just absolutely repelled by him and so they go off the loan. IEM Ron. Books that out of there before anybody even notices that he’s gone.

Um, and ABI stays behind. They all run around the mall and look for places to hide. Meanwhile, ABI stays back, opens up his gift. That I guess is heroin. I’m not. Well versed in hard drugs, so 

Todd: I don’t know. 

Craig: But it’s like Brown and there is a 

Todd: needles, 

Craig: right? Right. A syringe. And he shoots up and then he starts like walking around looking at them.

But he’s so high that he’s just completely out of it and they play. Like in the background, this is the closest. I feel like we get to a musical number there. They’re playing this song in the background. Um, and the lyrics are so funny and I, it’s like, Oh gosh, where are they? I know. I wrote them down cause I thought they were so funny.

And it’s, it’s metal. It’s like Indian metal, which I’ve never heard before, but the, the, the primary lyrics are hide. You’re being hunted, seek your life is at stake. And like, it just keeps repeating that with a few other lyrics over and over again. And, uh, he’s running around looking for them. And then he. I guess goes into like an electronics store.

He breaks a display case full of cell phones and he starts trying to use the cell phones, I guess to call the police or call somebody and somebody shows up. We don’t see who it is, but it’s got the voice of the Santa Claus and points a gun. In hobbies face

That’s to the other characters, and we hear like three or four gunshots. So I thought ABI was dead. 

Todd: Hmm. Yeah. 

Craig: But he’s not, 

Todd: no, he’s not 

Craig: yet 

Todd: earlier than this though. I think Jai Gid eventually found his present. You did have a present and inside of his box was a gun. So there’s some, I think that happened before.

For this. So there’s some implication that may be he’s the one that shot him anyway. There’s some flashbacks to that night where apparently also he also found a gun that night in a drawer and then GUDID or is running and hiding in a movie theater, and then the screen comes on in the movie theater and she sees herself.

Like on the screen, playing out a little bit of that night, and I was thinking, where did this video come from? Like, yeah, they have surveillance footage of all of this. 

Craig: Well, it’s like there was a camcorder sitting right on the dresser where, yeah, Avi was like snorting Coke and that’s where Jay 

Todd: found the gun.

But if there were, then. The rest of the movie wouldn’t make sense because they would have proof of exactly what happened that evening and then things wouldn’t have ended up with them the way they did. So that was a little, yeah, that didn’t make much sense, but it’s a cool effect, right? 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, I guess whatever they, Jay finds ABI dead in dressed in the Santa suit.

He’s not really dead, but they make us think he is for a while, only to bring him back for 30 seconds later, and then he just dies anyway, which is stupid. 

Todd: No, no. He has to get his monologue in. That’s why he comes. 

Craig: Yeah, and his very special, like afterschool is festival, but then. He, then he finds the gun. So he’s standing there with Arby’s, apparently dead body and the gun and Canita finds them.

And she thinks that Jai killed him and he’s trying to convince her that he didn’t, but she runs off and that’s when she ends up in the movie theater. And then from this point on, it’s very cat and mouse. And this is the other. Okay, so. Figuring out who the characters were and too many actors. That was a big problem for me.

The other problem for me, and I don’t know if this was them trying to Americanize it or I don’t know if it was. If it’s a, an Indian convention, I don’t know. But they throw in so many red herrings that it really just pissed me off. 

Todd: Like 

Craig: first IEM, Ron runs around and finds a giant machete in the mall. Why?

I don’t know, but, okay. And so he’s running around with this giant machete and then all of a sudden Goonies does being chased by. Santa and Santa has the exact same giant machete so. It’s gotta be IEM, Ron, right? No, that’s way too obvious. Right. Couldn’t possibly be. Then Jai, who is trying to find and woo goonie data, by the way, he’s also just swinging the gun around wildly and firing it.

Every noise that he hears, he almost shoots good Nita at some point. Yeah. Um, but like, he sees an outfit in the mall window and he looks at it like, Oh, that would be nice. And the outfit has, comes with these combat boots with red shoelaces. And then later when Goonies was being chased, not only does Santa have, uh, the big machete, but he’s also wearing those exact boots.

And. So that convinces her that there’s those two are somehow working together, which as it turns out, she has reason to believe, but it just made me mad. Like, stop it. Stop it with these stupid red herrings. I know that they’re red herrings and I’m not falling for it. Just knock it off. 

Todd: Oh, that’s pretty typical horror movies though, isn’t it?

To throw that kind of stuff in there, 

Craig: but there’s so blatant, like both blatant in your face. Like here’s Jai looking at this stupid outfit, which he changes into, like they’re in mortal peril, but he takes a minute to shop at the gap. 

Todd: It’s true. And there’s no good explanation for them either. It’s not like at the end of the day, they kind of make sense.

No, they were just like two machetes that the other character happened to. A hap on happened upon. There’s another pair of boots that happens to look exactly like the one that Santa was wearing. Yeah, yeah. You’re right. They’re pretty lame. Red herrings for sure. Yeah. AFT and there, there’s also a giant display of the Taj Mahal that looks exactly like what was inside that snow globe that they were handling, 

Craig: and she finds the exact snow globe before we, this is big, like the scene that you’re getting to is.

Big, like this is kind of the big reveal. So I just wanted to say that before this ohm and, uh, joy Tika are also running around and like, they find the control room. And it’s weird because like the Santa has been chasing somebody around, but there’s a lit cigarette in the ashtray and they’re like, Ooh, that’s weird.

And then there’s also that moment where they realize that, um, ABI has moved. And so they go down there and that’s when ohm and ABI happens. This moment where obvious like, I hated you because, because when you were born, nobody paid any attention to me anymore. And so after that night and uh, ohms, like you had me institutionalized in you, it’s like, yes.

And, and then when you got out, I was trying to get you back in, but. I’m sorry. Now I realize

Todd: it’s so long. This scene is like five or eight minutes long. It’s this, it’s almost, it’s almost comical really. Cause it’s like, it’s like they think he’s dead and he pretty much is, but he wakes up to give this long spiel, just basically spill out their entire backstory to each other, um, cry a lot, uh, in each other’s arms and then have him.

You know, fall over dead again. So it’s, it’s this heightened drama moment compacted into five minutes in them. Maybe that may be a little world cinema for you. That’s not typical Halloween. 

Craig: Yeah, it’s very melodramatic. It’s very silly. But meanwhile, like joy Tika. Goes away somewhere to like give them their moment, I guess.

Okay. Then we get back to the scene that you were getting ready to introduce where Grenada finds herself in apparently the Taj Mahal store, cause that’s the only thing that’s in there. There’s like a big replica of it that looks exactly like the one from the snow globe. Then there is the exact snow globe.

There and she picks it up and, and she hears somebody behind her, she turns around and it’s giant, his new cute outfit. 

Todd: So this is where we actually, we get more information. We get the full story basically, of what happened that night because she still hates his guts and he’s getting more and more agitated.

And so they confront each other and he ends up pulling a gun on her. He’s just, this, I won’t take no for an answer kind of guy. It’s sort of like, I love you. And. And I, I want you, or, or nothing. And it turns out that that night, 12 years ago, what happened was, um, is he was coming onto her and she was saying no.

And he wouldn’t take no for an answer, 

Craig: not an excuse for anything. That happens moving forward, but she’s really, really mean to him. She calls him like street trash and tells him to go crawl back into the sewer that he came  hot for funding and I hate you. You keep low life to miss

miss . Do you understand?

She really doesn’t like him. 

Todd: Yeah. You, you kind of need, you need a flashback before the flash bag just to see why she hates his guts so much. Right. Uh, so like, why was he even at the party hanging out with these people if he was so disgusting? Well, OAM and, um, Joe Tika are locked in a bathroom. Kind of make an out.

I guess that’s the implication. Everybody else is off somewhere and it’s just a, him and gmita and IEM. Ron in that room and IEM. Ron is, I guess kind of like his Lackey, like you said, he was a little fat. He was kind of the puppy going along, I guess with whatever he wanted him to do. So he hands him Ron the gun and tells him to go outside and stand guard.

By the bedroom door. And so  Ron just like, okay. It kind of takes it and goes out and clearly conflicted, but 

Craig: he, exactly, 

Todd: he does it anyway and goes outside and stands by the door, kind of like half in tears, while again, um, we don’t see this and we don’t hear it or anything like that, but basically, um, we know that a GI is raping her in the bedroom.

And that was, 

Craig: that’s the thing that I didn’t see coming. I know, God knows. That kind of 

Todd: level of intensity. 

Craig: Yeah, I know. Like I thought that I was under the impression that these people were all friends and even though maybe they had had this traumatic experience, like, I don’t know, and it just threw everything in.

Two question for me, like why wasn’t goonie de even more angry and freaked out when she found out that Jai was there with them in the mall? I mean, she does say like, what are you doing here? Or something like that, but it’s, it’s violent and like you said, we don’t see anything per se, but he’s on top of her.

And. It’s very clear what has happened, you know? Because then Iran comes back in and Jai stands up and like zips himself back up and she’s laying there on the bed crying like it’s, it’s perfectly crystal clear that he has raped her. And, and again, I get the email, Ron is supposed to be like the Lackey and like you said, he is clearly conflicted, but come on, like that’s some pretty serious.

Stuff. 

Todd: Yeah, it truly is. And then, I mean, these other two are in the bathroom, just off of the bedroom. So it’s like, I mean, like right there by the bed, there’s a door that leads to a tiny, 

Craig: no, no, no, no, no, no. Because, no, because they have to run across the apartment. They do. Um, I thought they ran out the door yet.

No, there is, there is a, I don’t remember exactly how it goes down. So somehow Guna gets her hands on the gun. Yes. And she’s pointing it at Jai and threatening to kill him, the two in the bathroom, and I don’t know if they’re making out or what. I think they’re just hiding their plating, playing hide and seek, and they’re hiding together and in the shower, but they hear like this commotion and they hear people approaching and she says, I think I don’t want anybody to find us like this.

I don’t. Like she’s afraid that it’s too suggestive, like they think that they will have been fooling around or something. So she kind of playfully gets up and Guna is chasing Jai through the apartment. They end up in the . The bedroom with the bathroom that the other two ohm and you, uh, Joe Tika are in and joy Tika comes running out with a big smile on her face.

Like she’s still playful. Like she doesn’t know what’s going on, but she ends up running right between granita and Jai and Grenada fires at Jai that it hits GTK and she falls dead. On the bed or dying on the bed and ohm comes out and of course is distraught and terrified and everybody’s just kind of standing around in shock, but then ohm and their parents show up, I guess this is that their house, somehow OAM has gotten his hands on the gun and Jai says he did it.

And nobody. That’s another thing that I don’t understand. Why would they pin it like I get why Jai would want to pin it on own, but why everybody else? GI is the one who’s the total. Asshole in this whole scenario owned, didn’t do anything, but it’s like everybody else just goes along with it. That ohm is the one that killed her and that’s why he ends up institutionalized for 12 years.

That didn’t make any sense to me. 

Todd: It’s a bit of a, it’s a considerable stretch. It’s very convoluted. I agree. I didn’t get it either.  where’s everybody just so distraught and worried that the girl would be ? I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know what the reason was. I 

Craig: guess. I guess maybe they were trying to protect her.

I guess one thing I ultimately, I don’t really know if I feel like it worked or not, but I was impressed by their attempt to make everything so parallel. So as we’re seeing. All of these things that I’ve just described go down with the rape and, and the guarding of the door. All of these things are happening again, almost exactly the same.

Todd: Um, 

Craig: you know, Jai Jai has the gun on goonie de again, he’s trying to seduce her. She rejects him. He is, you know, potentially about to get violent with her. The only difference is. IEM. Ron shows up and baked, basically says, I’m not your Lachie anymore. Um, and I’m not going to do this again. And so they fight and they have a pretty good fight and it’s satisfying cause IEM Ron kicks his ass, but he is really stupid, which, uh, GI points out because once Jaya is down and apparently unconscious, um, IEM, Ron leaves the gun right at Gyse fee and goes to Grenada in what really is maybe the most heartfelt moment of the movie where he just.

Apologizes to her and says, I’m so sorry. You know, like, I was, I was weak. Um, you know, I, I didn’t want that to happen to you. I didn’t want to do it. Um, I’m so, so sorry. And, and he says, you know, I understand that you can never forgive me. And, and the look on her face is. You know, that kind of sums it up.

Like, I can’t forgive you, but I get what you’re saying. You know, we were both kind of victims in that moment. Um, but he, you know, he just says, I know you can’t forgive me, but I just want you to know that I’m not a horrible person. I didn’t want this to happen to you. And then he gets shot in the back. Jai shoots him.

Um, and then the whole chase happens again the same way that it did before, but somehow. She ends up getting the gun and she shoots him, right? But then she, okay, so then she goes downstairs and she finds ohm and he’s who’s by himself. She says it’s just the two of us left and he’s like, no, joy. Tika is still here.

She just ran off for a minute. And Grenada is like, what are you, what are you talking about? Joy teak is here, and then joy Tico walks into frame and he’s like, she’s here. She’s, she’s right there. And goonie data says, and this is the part, it’s not like I knew, you know, for certain that this was the case, but I suspected it all along.

She says, don’t you remember what happened that night? Joy teak has been dead for 12 years. She died that night. And he says, no, she didn’t. She’s right there. And we can see her, but goonie to says, okay, where is she? And it’s not like he points her out or anything, but she just kind of looks around. She’s like, okay, so she’s right there.

Well, if she’s right there when I fire this gun, then the bullet will hit her and she does fire the gun. But this time. Oh, jumps in front of it, 

Todd: which was a nice, again, nice parallel and sort of the, um, redemption, if you will, for his guilt is what’s is what’s being played out here. And so then they have their moment where ohm dies and we see flashbacks to see that I’m actually all of these scenes where like for example, when she came to visit him.

Ah, boom. She actually wasn’t there. He was just, you know, playing with himself. He was just, you know, I having this moment, I’m imagining that she’s there. Yeah, it’s cute. It’s like they showed these previous shots that they had shown of the two of them together. They just pop her out of them, you know, hop her out 

Craig: and he looks so silly like he does.

You would think he was creepy. He’s like stroking his own hand and like giving like these loving looks to like nobody next time. It’s pretty funny. Oh, it’s hilarious. The UNITA is alone then, and she just, you know, stands in the middle of the mall and starts screaming and is like, is there anybody else here?

Is there anybody else here? And then Santa shows up again and I’m like, what the heck? Like, who is this guy? Because I just assumed that it had to be one of them, or maybe more than one of them working together, but everybody’s dead. So he’s just, he’s standing there, he’s got his machete again, and she’s like, well, you killed everybody else.

I guess you’re going to kill me too. And then she’s like, do it. Just kill me. That’s. That’s what I want for Christmas. 

Todd: Yeah. Kill me. And the raises the machete 

Craig: and brings it down on her. Again. We don’t really see it. There’s not a whole lot. There’s some blood, a little bit of blood in the movie. Um, but it’s more suggested than anything.

Like, it’s like bleeding through clothes, like, um, and you, you do see those little. Like stitched up incisions, but not a terrible amount of direct Gore. Um, so we don’t actually, we just see the machete come down. We don’t even see it make contact, which. Raise my eyebrows like, did he really kill her? I don’t know.

But the next thing it cuts to the next day and a security guard apparently finds all this stuff. And then we get a news clip and it talks about how all of these people were prominent people. And they say that there was only one survivor. And I’m like, well what? Who? And, but it turns out its own, but they say he can’t be.

Interrogated because he has suffered from mental illness since his youth. And so they, the police can’t question him. And it cuts back to him in his bed at his aunt’s house where we had kind of first met him in this current day. And he seems to just kind of be like the simple kind of invalid that. He was before seemingly 

Todd: seemingly, and then it’s like a nighttime or whatever, and he gets up out of bed and takes off his thing that’s wrapped around his hand or whatever, and walks outside into the yard and there’s a little hut or house nearby, I guess, the yard, and he looks left and looks right and moves a door side and goes inside.

And his aunt also is kind of looking around the corner at him, like she sees him, but I guess she assumes that he’s sleepwalking again. Um, but she doesn’t do anything about it. Uh, this was a little strange because she was throwing some, almost knowing smiles at him that I thought, is she in on this too?

Like, uh, I, I still not even sure completely, but I’m not sure that this little room could exist on her property without her knowing about it. If it is indeed her property, who knows? Anyway, he goes into this room and what we see is that there are all these clippings up everywhere. There’s all the materials that were kind of used in this whole incident, are in there, and, uh, it’s all very usual suspects.

He, and it turns out that he had set up this entire thing so that he could get revenge on all of these people for the death of his, of his, uh, love. Back then. 

Craig: Well, and for ruining his life. 

Todd: So it was a, it was pretty interesting actually. I did not see this coming. I’m, maybe you did. I didn’t see Kamin. I was wondering who in the world is going to be in that Santa suit?

But at that point, everything was so poetic, especially with how the way that he died, you know, I wasn’t quite sure who was going to be, I thought maybe it’s going to be like a parent. I thought maybe it was the aunt there for a minute. You know? 

Craig: I thought so too. For a second. . Um, the, the only reason, you know, it crossed my mind that it would be him because ultimately, especially when you find out what happened, he would be the one with the most motivation because goonie de even says to Jai before she kills them, you killed me once and you didn’t just kill me.

But you’ve ruined everyone’s lives. And it seems like that’s kind of true. But ohm is the one who really, you know, took the . Fall for everything. Um, and, and ended up spending his whole adult life and, uh, well lost the love of his life and then spent his whole adult life in an institution. So I knew that he had the motivation, but what I didn’t think it could be him because I didn’t think it was plausible because joy Tico was always with him.

but then when it turns out that she’s dead, the movie does this for you if at the end, like it gives you this montage of all of the ways that he was behind everything and how it was always him in the Santa suit and he was laying the groundwork for all this. He was the one that sent the messages. He was the one that abducted the mall and 

Todd: he shot himself in the arm too.

Craig: at the end because he was wearing somebody shot. Oh, when he took the shot for joint Tika, he was wearing, he was wearing a Bulletproof ver, yeah. Bulletproof vest. And one of the things that I found most intriguing was that whole demonstration of the device in their stomach that was totally staged like he was, he was just faking it, which made me wonder.

If he even put anything in any of them or if he just sliced them and then sewed him back up to make them . Yeah, we 

Todd: were talking about that too. I think you’re right. It, I mean probably not I, there would be no point unless he were, unless he had control, unless he could actually, maybe he still wanted to have that option.

You know, to, uh, to buzz them. It’s hard to say, 

Craig: I guess, but that would be 

Todd: pretty impressive. 

Craig: That’s some, that’s some dr Frankenstein stuff in there, 

Todd: but they do show the scene of him doing the selling. But you’re right. He could’ve just been sewing up a gash. That’s 

Craig: right. Yeah. So, anyways, so we see all that and, you know, it’s clever.

I’ll, I’ll give it that. And you know, the way that they present it, it seems plausible. Uh, that he could have been behind all of this. Um, and so then he’s standing there just kind of smiling mischievously and joy. Tico walks in and she says, they all think I’m dead. How about you? And they embrace, and he breaks the fourth wall and looks directly into the camera.

And says, what do you think? And then that’s the end. Now I, I, and I didn’t know how I felt about that. I mean, it was very tongue in cheek and I liked it. 

Todd: I thought it was cool. I thought it was, I don’t know, I thought was kind of a neat challenge at the end. It’s corny. Yeah, it’s definitely a little corny, but I got some chills finding out that he was behind it all.

And then also seeing her come back in. Obviously she’s. Probably still dead. There’s no way she’s still alive. She would be in hiding for 12 years just to pull all this off with him. No, of course not. But at the, anyway, I, I’ve, the impact at the end of the movie, it was like, Oh my gosh, this was a bit of a surprise for me.

Like I didn’t expect all these little twists and turns and I didn’t expect to be surprised by the end of the movie. Like I was, cause I hadn’t figured out most of it. I didn’t find too much of it terribly obvious to me while I was seeing it. And, uh, definitely her not existing. I had to, like I said, go back through and watch the movie again to see, Oh, how cleverly constructed the scenes were and some of even her dialogue, which was just, you know, basically ignored by the other characters, but in a way that it didn’t sound like it was ignored.

Craig: Okay. So since you’ve watched it twice, I’ll ask you this. Um, the only part that bothered me about her not really being there was when they all met together in the mall.  and there was a gift for her. 

Todd: Yes, yes. 

Craig: Under the tree 

Todd: and Jay Jai deep says, Oh, I guess I’ll just open joy. Tecos gift and ohm jumps in and says, no, you will not.

Joe Tika will open her gift and he snatches it from him and he says, wait, and then they get interrupted. He never hands the gift over to joy teak or anything like that. He’s just got the gift in his hand and then other things happen and it just kind of falls by the wayside. Yup. 

Craig: Gotcha. Yeah, it’s, that was the only part that I was a little confused, but it’s 

Todd: really pretty smart.

I’m, I, I got to give this movie a bit of credit. I, I really enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Yes. There was a lot of this very typical, I would say, very typical of world cinema, meaning sort of outside of Hollywood, this tendency to really prefer melodrama and to really go heightened on the acting, and it’s just sort of the way things are.

I, you know, I see in Chinese movies all the time, Japanese movies were. It seems like every other scene, whenever there’s somebody upset on the screen, they’re gonna end up crying about it. I thought it was hilarious that bit where the two brothers get together and they just sort of spill out all of this backstory that was completely unnecessary, but apparently necessary for somebody in the audience to know in these last five minutes learning all this about these two people before this guy dies.

You know, nothing that we give a crap about in. An American movie, we try to avoid that type of thing. So there were these elements that were kind of cute and interesting, the chase Snus of what’s going on, even though there’s some really dark stuff that they’re implying, the way that they’re kind of dancing around it in a way so that they’re not showing things explicitly or talking about things explicitly was kind of cute as well.

Um, and strikes one is a little naive, but once again, it’s just because that’s not what we’re used to. So these sorts of things. I found, I don’t know, I was just fun watching an Indian movie and seeing the sort of way of doing this horror movie to see that it could be done and that could hold my interest up to the point where even by the end I was like, ah, that, that really, um, surprised me.

Craig: I didn’t dislike it. I thought it was fine. I mean, it. Had it been an American movie, it’s something that I would have, you know, popped on on Netflix just cause you know, not, and, and it was fine. I wasn’t bored. I was interested. It had pretty people in it to look at, even though ultimately I did find some of the twists, somewhat predictable.

It at least had a fair amount of intrigue, and so, you know, I, I don’t think it’s a bad movie. I just didn’t think it was a great movie. I thought it was just okay. Yeah. And I don’t think that I had ever seen a full length, uh, Indian film before. And now I have, and I don’t think that this is probably typical of traditional Indian films, but it was just kind of cool to see.

From a different cultural perspective, how they would approach this kind of thrillers, slasher. And it was a strong effort. You know, you and I both love a good horror movie set in a mall,

so that was fun. Um. It was a little bit darker than I expected in parts, um, which is also neither here nor there. But, uh, yeah, it was what it was. I, I wouldn’t watch it again, but I wouldn’t actively. Tell people not to see it. It’s, it’s not bad. It’s, it’s fine. 

Todd: Well, it was nice to have a movie. I could sit down and watch with my wife cause you know, she doesn’t have, she doesn’t even like blood.

She doesn’t like too much Gore drama explicitness with things. And this was, you know, a really compelling, captivating movie for us anyway. Uh, that had a lot of cool twists and a bunch of drama that we felt like a puzzle that that had to be worked out. And it was cool that we could watch it together, which we don’t often get to do that.

She enjoyed it a lot too. So, you know, I would recommend it to, to somebody who’s looking for something a little less explicit, that’s still seems adult. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Well, thank you again for listening to our podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. We do have a couple more holiday movies coming up for you right to the end of Christmas, and we do want to thank our listeners for sending us suggestions as we get to the bottom of the barrel of Christmas horror movies.

Those suggestions are evermore important. But for us to find anything at all, and someday we’ll probably just going to have to forget about Christmas as a theme months, unless they start really cranking these things out. Oh boy. Oh, well, you’ll find us on Facebook and you can leave us a message there.

Find us on our website, two guys that red 40 net.com and until next time, I’m Todd 

Craig: and I’m Craig 

Todd: with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Hailed (a bit wrongly) as “the first Stephen King movie written specifically for the screen,” this early 90’s video store staple is a product of its time. With early CGI morphing in all its glory, in-your-face incest, tons of celebrity cameos, and some fairly brutal violence, it doesn’t hold much back. You just kinda wish it turned out better as a result.

Sleepwalkers (1992)

Episode 196, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig: . Hello and welcome to another episode. It’s Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig. 

Todd: And I’m Todd 

Craig: and we are right smack dab in the middle of the holiday season, but we decided to go ahead and just do a something that we wanted to do. We’ve been doing a lot of requests lately, which is great. We absolutely love requests, keep them coming.

Um, we get to see a lot of things we might not otherwise see when you guys suggest things, but every once in a while I will just be, you know. Kinda off on my own train of thought and, uh, something will come to mind just randomly out of nowhere. I actually, I have no idea where I came up with this, but I was reminded of 1990 twos sleepwalkers based on an unpublished story by Stephen King.

Uh, this movie was. Advertised as the first Stephen King project that was written specifically for the screen, even though I think that’s kind of a lie. It was really just a story that he had never had published, but it came out in 1992 I would have been in middle school, probably like seventh, eighth grade.

I remember seeing it. I don’t think that I saw it in the theater or anything, but when it eventually came around to video and then cable, this was a movie that me and my sister threw into our rotation. Fairly heavily. It has to have been at least 15 years since I’ve seen this. So I’m, I was interested in revisiting it, watching it again yesterday for the first time in 15 years.

Um, I had thoughts,

Oh boy. What about you? What’s your 

Todd: history with this movie? I kind of thought this might be a Craig and Kristin staple, to be completely honest with you. I could see that it has elements that appeal to both, like those other movies you’re talking about. This movie I always pass by on the shelves there in the horror section with a pretty iconic looking cover, but I never once picked it up.

I kind of glanced at, and it didn’t look appealing to me at the time, and I never. You saw it before today and I saw today and uh, wow. We’re going to have a lot of fun here. I think it’s talking about this 

movie. 

Craig: I hope so. Yeah. I mean, there, there are definitely Stephen King elements to this movie. You know, it’s kind of set in this small town.

You’ve got this kind of diverse cast of wacky small town characters, which is very Stephen King, but it’s, I don’t know, a little bit. Different from his other stuff too. It’s an interesting movie. It was directed by Mick Garris who has directed other movies as well, but he, I think is more well versed as a writer.

Um, and he wrote some movies that I really like. He wrote Hocus Pocus batteries, not included, which was a super cute little movie. Love that movie. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a good movie. Stephen King gets the writing credits. It’s based on his story make Garris actually wasn’t the first director on the project, but Stephen King, um, had, I dunno even know what you call it, like authority over directorial choices and the original director who is attached wanted to make some changes that seeming King didn’t like.

And so. They got Mick Garris and uh, this is the movie we ended up 

Todd: with. Kind of makes you wonder, doesn’t it, what those are, what those changes were. 

Craig: I do wonder, and I don’t know. On the one hand, of course, it would always be interesting to see what somebody else would’ve done with it. But in this case, I kind of like that it sticks with King’s vision.

Now, Stephen King is a, you know, an amazing author. I am a huge fan. Of his, I’ve read nearly everything that he’s written, but when it comes to filmmaking, sometimes I feel when he has major involvement in the filmmaking process, mm. It’s kind of a hit or miss kind of thing. Yeah. The only thing that, uh, King has ever directed himself was that movie about the sentience machines.

Maximum overdraft. 

Todd: Some overdrive. Yeah. With , 

Craig: which is a something special. We should, we should probably do that movie at some point, but 

Todd: it’s so funny that his earliest movies are probably some of his best adaptations, aren’t they? Yeah. Also because, well, for example, and I need to go back and watch him. I really liked, I remember liking Firestarter as a kid, but I haven’t seen in ages.

Um, the dead zone was great. I think I remember it being great. Carrie was phenomenal. 

Craig: Oh yeah, 

Todd: we’d liked Cujo and I never saw Christine. Good. The shining, of course, is probably the most iconic, but that has, you know, that diverges quite a bit from his novel 

Craig: and he hates it, Murray, at least historically, he’s hated it apparently.

Now with the release of dr sleep, he feels like the film adaptation of dr sleep has rectified for him. A lot of the things that he had problems with in the shining and as, and as companion pieces, he now thinks they’re really good, so he’s kind of pivoted a little bit on the shining, which is good because you know, I understand.

I read the shining. It’s an excellent book. I loved the movie. Two, but they are fairly different. Uh, and I can imagine being an artist, having your work adapted, you know, your, your art is your baby. And to see somebody make changes, I can understand how that would be difficult, but I’m, I’m glad that he’s kind of pivoted on that a little bit.

Todd: Well, and the thing I was thinking about as I was watching this movie is it’s, it’s so Stephen King, it almost feels like I’m watching the story being read to me. That’s how Stephen King it is. And I could kind of see how I feel like this movie would have read a lot better than it played out on the screen because most of the problems I have with it are how it played out on the screen.

Like the acting, uh, this maybe some of the direction, even the editing, like so much of the movie, what’s wrong with it? I think has. Not to do with the story or the plot, or even some of the characters and their development or, or, or, or any of that. It mostly has to do with the how it visually ends up, you know, as a movie, I think.

Craig: And I think that a lot of that. Probably has to do with the time. 

Todd: Oh yeah, for sure. 

Craig: It shows its age. I mean, it’s not like 1992 was a hundred years ago or anything, but in terms of special effects, especially CGI and those types of things, and just some other even practical creature effects, it looks a little bit dated.

And another thing about Stephen King. And as much as I love him, and, and this really isn’t a criticism, but sometimes he takes a little while to get going in his novels. And I felt like this movie took kind of a little while to get going for me. In fact, the first, I would say probably almost half of the movie, I was like, Oh my God.

Todd is going to think this is so stupid,

but then 

Todd: you know me so well, 

Craig: but then in the second half I was like, no, this is fun. I like it. Anyway, it’s okay. So it’s called sleepwalkers and it’s based on this legend, which I. I guess Stephen King probably just made it up. I, I’ve never heard anything like this before, but, um, it opens up with this screenshot of a definition from the chilled coffee encyclopedia of arcane knowledge from 1884.

And it says, a sleepwalker is the nomadic shape shifting creature with human animals. Feline origins vulnerable to the deadly scratch of the cat. The sleepwalker feeds upon the life force of virginal human females, probable source of the vampire at legend, and that basically just kind of lays it out there for you.

That’s what we’re dealing with here. We’re dealing with some shape shifting, feline type creatures who do exactly what the definition tells you. They go around, uh, finding. 

Todd: Shifting their shape, 

Craig: finding Virgin and stealing their life force. And it is kind of an interesting take on the vampire lore. I think.

Uh, it’s, the opening scene starts out, it tells us where in bodega Bay, California, and it opens up with this  song. Uh, I think the title is bodega or something like that. I, I don’t know. I. I really liked this song. It’s just this weird kind of humming song we’re in. You just kind of homes the same melodic line over and over again, but it’s, it’s dark tonally, uh, and a little bit sad and it, it, it really sets a mood.

But we open up on a crime scene apparently, and we get the first of many cameos with Mark Hamill. As one of these cops investigating this crime scene. 

Todd: I actually did like a double-take with this one. I was like, that guy. That’s not Mark Hamill is it? Is that Mark Hamill and I probably spent the entire scene just trying to work out if he really was Mark Hamill.

Pretty incredible. And you’re right, there’s so many fricking cam cameos in this movie. You can’t even imagine. It’s insane. 

Craig: It’s kind of surprising because ultimately the movie, like I’m going to talk about how much I like it cause I really do, but it’s not a great movie and it’s pretty amazing that. They got so many big name people in general, but also, you know, specifically whore people to cameo in this movie.

And Mark Hamill, you know, I think that maybe one of the reasons for your double-take is he’s still so young here and he’s in great shape and he, he looks great. He’s got a mustache. 

Todd: Apparently he did this cameo just, um, I think the same year he started doing the joker. The joker. Yeah. Second most famous role, and apparently they actually added this scene later.

Craig: Oh, I didn’t know that. 

Todd: Yeah. After they did the, you know, the test audience, uh, thing, uh, the director basically called in a favor. Mick Garris apparently met Mark Hamill on his first job as a receptionist for star Wars. So he called in a favor to him for that. 

Craig: It is crazy. 

Todd: He just wanted to introduce the mythos, I guess, of the cat creatures after they had the test audiences and they felt like the scene would, would do it a 

Craig: little better.

Well, I don’t know if that really is true or not. No, I mean, it is a duty kind of then it doesn’t really do a whole lot, but we find out that a mother. Son have gone missing. And you know, the people in the town are very concerned because they were so close. I hope nothing happens to them. Um, there are dead cats all over the place, which I don’t really understand.

Like, I hope all these dead cats got hung up just that one night, because otherwise. Women being full of thought. That was weird.

Okay, whatever. So there is these dead cats hung all over outside and they go inside and there’s silly little jump scare where they hear a cat that jumps out of the closet at them. And then there’s another jump scare where a shrivel corpse falls out of the closet. And you know, it’s like mummified, like it’s all wrinkled and old, but.

It has a Rosen, its hair, and it’s wearing, um, braces. And Mark Hamill says it’s a little girl.

It’s so, okay. So little girls are in danger apparently. And then we cut to the title. And then there’s a really interesting opening credit sequence where we see a lot of old, which seemed fairly authentic, hieroglyphics dealing with cats. And of course we know that the Egyptians like worshiped cats and that type of thing.

So that’s expected. But then there’s also other artwork that I presume is fake, where you see like half cat, half people, and there’s. One where clearly this cat person is like sucking something out of a screaming girl’s mouth. And so it’s very, very on the nose, you know, telling us what’s going on here.

And then we get to our main setting, which is Travis, Indiana, and we see this little, not little, actually, it’s kind of a big, beautiful country home. And. The song from I think the 60s don’t, don’t check me on that, but sleepwalk is playing. It’s instrumental. I always remember it from the end of LA Bomba when you find out that Richie Valens has died, that’s the song that’s playing.

It’s very sad, but it’s actually, I love that song. I, I think it’s great. 

Todd: It’s a nice song. It’s classic. 

Craig: A hot. Shirtless, young man. 

Todd: I knew you were going to say this. 

Craig: Listen, he’s hot. I can’t help 

Todd: it now. I see why Craig chose this movie. 

Craig: Come on. It’s just, it’s just w well, I guess it’s not just that one part.

It’s pretty much just that one part. It’s 

Todd: rather attractive guy. 

Craig: He has these good looking guy. His name is Brian Krauss. He’s done tons of TV. He’s probably most famous. Aside from this, he did a stint on the original, uh, series of charmed, and I vaguely remember him from that. I didn’t watch that show religiously, but I watched it every once in a while.

He’s sitting there and he’s looking at a yearbook before we even really see specifically what he’s looking at. He takes out a. Pocket knife and carves a T into his arm. And then we see that he’s looking at this beautiful girl named Tonya, and he even actually says, Tanya, I know. And so he’s got his eye on somebody already, and of course we already know what’s going on.

And then were introduced to his mother, Mary, who is played by Alice Creig. I may say names wrong. I apologize. She’s really recognizable to me. She has a very severe face. She’s gorgeous. Yeah. That she has kind of this severe face. Um, intimidating, I think. Um, she played the Borg queen in one of the star Trek movies and she was also the main villain in the silent Hill movie.

I think she’s really cool 

Todd: and she was good in this movie. You know, another thing about this movie is it’s pretty well cast, I think, um, you know, look and that sort of thing. She looks great for the part, he’s great for the part. Um, the girl, you’re going to start talking about Tanya soon. She looks great for the part and all pretty accomplished actors and actresses.

Even if they weren’t at this point, they prove themselves by having like over a hundred credits. Almost every single, 

Craig: yeah, all of them still working. Yeah. I think that the acting is good. Now. There are times when the writing is not so good where they just kind of had to go with what they were given, but we meet Mary and we see that she has set up all of these like bear traps for.

Cats and cats seem to be kind of hanging around outside their house and she seems very concerned about that. But Charles comes downstairs and they have a chat and I don’t know, 

Todd: like. 

Craig: From the very beginning. As soon as he says like, she’s very concerned and he’s clearly trying to comfort her or make her less concerned or whatever, and he’s like, come on, dance with me.

And she’s reluctant, but she does. And as soon like the second that they start dancing, I’m like, yeah.

they seem like a really close mother. It’s a. And, uh, so they, they start dancing and they talk about how he has to find a girl. I feel like he says maybe he’s kinda got his eye on somebody. She’s interested, but he’s like, are you jealous? And she’s like, no, why would I be jealous? And then they make out, and then he picks them up and then they go upstairs and fuck.

Todd: Yeah, that was a bit of a shocker to me. But then, but then they come outside the house and, uh, they show that the window in the bedroom is kind of glowing and so it softens a little bit by, you kind of realize, all right, these are just not normal people anyway, like 

Craig: thriving humans. 

Todd: So who knows exactly what this mother son relationship is all about.

Right. 

Craig: I feel like they made a bold choice to just go there. Like, it’s pretty bold. It’s an incestuous mother and son, and they don’t pull any punches about that from the very beginning. Well, they would 

Todd: rub it in your face. 

Craig: Yeah, they rub 

Todd: it in your face. They have like these love making seeds like that are just like, we’re the, you know, the classic camera pans from the dresser down to the.

Floor where the, you know, their clothes on the dresser and clothes on the floor, like, like they were tearing their clothes off as they were coming through and couldn’t put them away. And it’s there in your face though time. 

Craig: Well, that’s the thing. I, you know, I didn’t even really remember that and maybe I used to watch this on TV and so I don’t, maybe they cut it, I don’t know.

But I remember, you know, the first part, it’s not even implied. I mean, it’s in your face. He picks her up, they go up to the bedroom and close the door, but there’s not a scene. But there is. Like literally a mother son sex scene later in the movie. And, and I think that that’s really bold, but at the same time, it’s not like, it doesn’t make sense.

I mean, these are not humans. I’m not even exactly sure what they’re supposed to be. Monsters, demons. I don’t know. But they are also clearly feline in nature. And as far as I know now, I’m no animal scientist or anything, but I feel like most, most animals are kind of a love the one you’re with breed, you know what I mean?

Like they’re, they’re not particularly concerned about familial relationships, but. It’s, it’s odd, but at the same time, it establishes that this mother and son are close and that I think it’s important to establish that. 

Todd: Oh, it is. 

Craig: But anyway, 

Todd: there’s that. It’s very Stephen King. He likes to do this kind of thing.

Right. Shock you a little bit. I really liked, we did it. I liked what came after this, where they camera pans down across this very classic theater. And by classic theater, I mean like that theater that we had in the nineties and eighties. There was a bit of a hold over from the 70s and sixties that had redecorated in a while.

We come into Tanya who is a young girl, and at first I just assumed these were older people, and then you realize they’re all high school students being played by older actors dancing, uh, with her. Swiffer type mop sweeper thing in there and it went on for so long. That was just a little strange. 

Craig: It’s cute.

It’s, it’s interesting that she’s dancing to all these like she’s like dancing to do you love me. To me 

Todd: what that moment and with the song that we had earlier, and that being played on a 45 record player 

Craig: for a few 

Todd: minutes, I actually thought maybe this was a period movie, like I was trying to figure the era, especially in that classic movie theater, but then you realize, no, it’s just a, there’s just all this stuff being thrown in there.

But I think one of my biggest problems with the movie. Was with the editing and I felt like maybe a lot of what a lot of the badness of the performances and here could have been cleaned up by that. And. I feel like the first half of the movie room moves really too slowly for the simple story that it is.

Craig: I agree. And 

Todd: all this stuff at the beginning doesn’t help it. I mean, I think they’re trying to set a tone, but 

Craig: everything is just a little too 

Todd: long. Every scene is just a little too long. Almost every shot, especially in the conversations between. Between two people, everything could have been tightened up a bit.

And this is kind of the first example of that is just this really long scene of her dancing. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, it is cute, but it does go on for quite awhile. And then, uh, Charles. Shows up. Oh, by the way, Tanya’s played by, again, I’m going to mispronounce her name, probably match an AMEC who again, is still working.

She’s incredibly beautiful and very unique. Uh, I think in her look, and she currently is on Riverdale. She was in twin peaks. Uh, she did this tent on AHS. So she’s been around forever and is still working. But, uh, Charles comes in and they flirt and it’s very innocent flirting, and they’re both very attractive, very charming, both of them, very charming.

They have really what boils down to a very cute meet. Cute. Like 

Todd: it is cute. 

Craig: It’s very innocent. And in fact, you know, I feel like she is begging. To be asked out, but he doesn’t at this point. And he later tells his mom, because when he goes home, she’s like, did you ask her out? And he’s like, what kind of girl would go out with a guy that she just met?

And the mom keeps asking him over and over and over again. Is she nice? Is she nice? Is she nice? You know, it’s, it’s like they are. Like virtue is important to them. You know, like she really has to be not just a Virgin, but a good girl, 

Todd: a nice Virgin. Right. 

Craig: That’s it. You know, he buys his pop. Well, he doesn’t buy it.

She gives it to him cause she’s thirsty. And yes, she’s super nice. And so that’s it. And then her dad picks her up. He reminds her during this, that. Cause he, he calls her by name and she’s like, how do you know my name is like, well, we’re an English class together. So the next day we see them in English class and he’s reading a creative short story that he’s written that literally lays out exactly what they are doing.

The title of this story, I think is sleepwalkers and it tells the story of what the sleepwalkers are and how his 

Todd: kid and his mom. 

Craig: Yeah, this kid and his mom, and they’re outcasts and they’re always being run out of town and blah, blah, blah. And Tonya really likes the story. Um, the English teacher’s name is mr Fallows and these plain played by Glenn Shaddox, who sadly has passed away, but he will always be Osho to me from Beetlejuice.

Todd: Exactly 

Craig: the teacher and he’s kind of a jerk. 

Todd: This whole scene was really interesting because, uh, this movie really plays things up a lot. It really heightens the drama and almost every bit of it is a little too overdramatic and a little too cliche and that, you know, that’s another, okay. I’m just kind of going through the list of the problems I have with the movie is really early on.

We get honed in, um, without any question as to this teachers. Extreme interest in this boy. You know, he says that, Oh, well, that was a very nice story, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there’s this odd fade out as time passes and all the kids have left, and the teacher’s still standing there and he looks through the window outside and he sees, uh, Charles, you know, chatting and smiling with some other people, and he has kind of a.

It’s a serious look on his face. And I thought, that’s intriguing. I wonder why he’s so interested in him. 

Craig: I know why. 

Todd: And it wasn’t the first thing that came to my mind, to be honest. But, uh, 

Craig: we didn’t find out later. He seems very, he seems very sinister actually, initially. And ultimately he is, 

Todd: I always heard his name is mr Fallis.

Through this whole thing. I guess it’s Mr. Fowler. 

Craig: I’ve 

Todd: heard every single time. I was like, is he really mr Falice? I’m like, 

Craig: that’s hilarious. I guess that Charles gives Tanya ride home that day and she takes him up to her room, which I thought was very bold of her. So for the first time they’ve met and it’s, it’s a hilarious scene cause it’s just flirty and cute and like he is acting very innocent, but for some reason she has bras and panties.

Strewn everywhere were like, what is happening? Like did her underwear drawer explode?

Todd: I think as a teenage boy, this is how I imagined the women’s rooms were. Um, but in this movie, it, it’s really silly cause it creates these silly little situations where he’s looking somewhere and she’s horrified that his hand is right next to a pair of panties and she’s . Quick, quickly trying to usher him away to look at something else before he notices.

Craig: The other thing that I noticed too, that that part that you’re talking specifically about where they’re like right under his nose, they are like these tiny. Lace panties. I grew up with this despair. Girls don’t just wear those on a daily basis. Those are like special occasion panties, so they don’t lose it, but whatever.

It’s cute. It’s a funny little joke or whatever. You know? They talk and they all know kiss, but they’re interrupted by her mother who is played by Cindy Pickett. Now, her parents. Mr and Mrs. Robinson are played by Lyman ward and Cindy Pickett, who were the exact same pair. They’re Ferris Bueller’s parents.

Oh. And he looks the same. She looks different because in that movie she had a really short blonde haircut. And in this, she has a much more suburban, like shoulder length, brunette haircut, but they’re the same people. They’re Ferris Bueller’s parents, and I think that they met on Ferris. Dealer and then they got married and then they were in this movie in 1992 and then also in 1992 they got divorced.

I hope it didn’t happen because of this movie. Maybe

Todd: I’ll never be in such a shitty project with you ever again. 

Craig: It was cute to see them back together again and they’re there. They’re sweet. 

Todd: I was, I thought it was interesting. As he’s coming down the stairs, she comes up, the mother comes up and kind of interrupts them and they make plans to go to a Homeland, which is a cemetery in town 

Craig: right.

Todd: Yes. A little famous for being a make-out point gets kind of alluded to when she’s talking with her friends and when she mentions it to her mom, but he kind of covers for it because as they’re coming down the stairs, PCs that her family has these grave rubbings put up on the wall. Now, that was so weird to me because I thought my family was the only family the decorated it’s house with gravestone rubbings.

Craig: Oh, I didn’t know that. 

Todd: Yeah. I know. We’re like the Adams family. Absolutely not. But my parents, when they were living in Europe before I was born, used to actually do this, go out to like graveyards and find these really cool or famous gravestones or whatever. Put a giant piece of paper over it and rub it with charcoal or, or, or something.

Uh, and get the imprint. And we literally have these framed. On our walls as I was growing up, like in the hallway, like they had it there and I just could not believe 

Craig: that that was in this movie. Well, I’m impressed with your parents because they looked really cool. I mean, it was kind of out of keeping, like, they seem like such a normal suburbanite family to have something like that, but they actually looked really cool and yeah.

He makes a connection with the mom. I feel like he’s just a charmer, you know, like he knows how to charm people. And, uh, so he talks to her about the grave. RUP rubbings and, uh, I, I think he kind of wins her over, which is smart of him. Oh. Then there’s a scene when he, after he leaves, he’s driving down the street and the teacher, the English teacher, mr Fallows, pulls him over like he’s some kind of cop or something.

Like he comes, he comes up behind him and his little like Volkswagen bug and is like honking his horn and pulls him over and he tells him. I know you’re not who you say you are. I looked at your transcripts and they’re fake. Charles is like, no, you’re mistaken. He’s like, no, I didn’t. Well, this is blackmail, mr Fallis.

I think he picked the wrong guy. This car is the only expensive thing I’ve gotten. And, uh, kind of sentimental about it. I don’t think I’ve ever.

Degeneration is so mercenary. Charles money, this money that or money is not the only medium of exchange and he straight up goes like to grab him in the junk. Yeah. And, and Charles grabs and rips it clean off like 

Todd: this possible 

Craig: to clean off at the wrist and hands it back to him. And so then also takes off running.

And he’s like, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Um, but of course Charles catches him and kills him. Yeah. And then Charles gets back on the road and gets followed by an actual cop. And this is my favorite part of the movie, not this part specifically, but these characters, and I say character because you’ve got.

Officer, Andy Simpson, who is this really charming, funny guy whose partner is a cat. Clovis is my favorite character in the whole movie.

Love this. Cute, charming officer and his cat and like, it’s not at this point, it comes later. But Andy, the, the, the cop just like sing, like makes up songs and sings them in his car and they’re dirty. And the hilarious. Oh gosh. Hey glove. It’s a glove. It’s what’s up. You catching a nap.

They’re going to Johnny with his Becker in his, and he’s a one ball man and he’s off to the Rudy yo man live now. The man rag I’m on, I can drink. He gets your right foot.  get off the stage. Fucking jerk. Your new boss

Todd: just kills 

Craig: me. Okay. So the cop starts chasing him and you know, as cliche as this is about to sound, it’s very cat and mouse because Charles is playing with them like. He wants to be chased, like he’s enjoying the chase at times. He even slows down to let the officer catch up with them before he then takes off again.

And there’s a funny thing where like, he almost runs down a bunch of school kids on a crosswalk, like it’s super cliche, but it’s kind of funny. And at one point, the cop car pulls right up next to Charles’s car. So like there’s side-by-side. Charles flips off the officer and he’s smiling like he’s having a great time, but then the cat pops up and Charles freaks out and goes through a Michael Jackson black or white like face transformation.

Todd: Yes. It’s hilarious. I’m sure at the time, really weird. At the time it probably seemed very cool cause I remembered that video, that video was probably the same year or something. It’s, he just goes from dog to cat to alien to something else, to something else, to his face. Again, all within the span of like three seconds.

And it just looks so dated. 

Craig: It really, really does. But of course, that freaks Andy out and, and eventually, um, now that he’s freaked out by the cat, Charles, real quick, after like he’s gone around a bend or something, pulls over to the side of the road and he has to like concentrate, but he makes himself and the car disappear.

I have no idea what the extent of these people’s powers are. They can do things. He makes himself and the car disappear. The cop pulls up and stops right there next to him, but of course he can’t see him, but Clovis can. Oh my gosh. And Charles talking the cat, he’s like, stop looking at me. You cat.

That was 

Todd: my second favorite line in the whole movie. 

Craig: The good one. It is a good one. But anyway, the cop goes off and he expresses his concern to his fellow cops who kind of just blow him off or whatever. But Charles goes home and Mary greets him and it’s like. She’s like, did you get it? And he’s like, no, I didn’t get it yet.

And then she proceeds to smack the shit out of him for awhile before realizing that he’s got a cut on his hand. Did you know where that came from? 

Todd: I have no clue. Was it supposed to have come from his tuffle with the, with the other guy? I don’t know. Did he scream his hand on a tree as he was running through the woods?

But I love it how her house is filled 

Craig: with candles. 

Todd: When he comes home, almost every scene in this movie is just either cheesy or campy or borderline stupid. Uh, it’s trying too hard in some points, even when it’s a little charming and cute. It’s, it seems so cliche and a little awkward. And I think at a lot of that has to do with the writing as well.

Like when she, when, when he comes home and she greets him, she’s like, did you get it? You didn’t get it is this. Then after she apologizes to him, they go up and we get 

Craig: this stuff. Well, you know, after she sees the cut on his hand, then she just immediately turns and she’s the concern, mother again, and, and he becomes, you know, like the crying son and he says, it’s already starting again, meaning that people are already starting to catch on.

They’re going to have to leave. And he says. We haven’t even seen another sleepwalker and she adamantly says, we are not the last. I can feel the others, which never pans out to anything. I kind of hope no, and find out there there were others around, but it does do something to kind of highlight the desperate nature of their situation.

You know, if, if they really are kind of the last ones. You know, it’s a rough gig for them, I guess, 

Todd: and they’re also trying to play up this other angle because I think it’s during the scene too, when she says to him, you cannot be in love with this girl, Charles. As soon as she said that, I’m thinking. He’s barely even seen her.

Craig: Like he met her at the theater. 

Todd: He saw her once at school and asked and drove her home. Then they, I was thinking, did they already go to the cemetery? Did I miss that scene? No, they didn’t even go to the cemetery. So like. It. That aspect of the story seems really shoehorned in here. This mother’s jealousy, not, not her jealousy.

Her jealousy was from the very beginning, just knowing that he’s going out with some girl, but this idea that he is getting conflicted and falling in love with her just doesn’t ring true based on what we’ve seen. You know, in the last 30 minutes, 

Craig: it doesn’t ring true as far as storytelling goes, but he plays it.

He knows like I do believe that the way that he looks at her and carving the tea into his arm and stuff, like I feel like we are supposed to get the impression that he is. Oh, you think, I think so. Then that all changes. It changes very quickly. So 

Todd: for that to be true, you know, I saw him as a charmer up to this point, just, he was just slick Willie.

Like the other movie we did, like the guest remember that, like just this guy just knows what to say in all the right looks. And he’s one of these guys, 

Craig: and this all kind of plays out when they get to the cemetery, which they’re about to. But the mom tells Charles. The tomorrow you’ll go out with her, you’ll feed, you’ll come back, we’ll feed me and we’ll leave.

Like we’re going to get outta here. And then you get the, not incredibly graphic, but still disturbing mother son sex scene, which I feel like was done solely to show us because they pan over from the actual actors. Engaged in the sex scene. It pans over to the mirror, which shows the reflections, I guess, of their true selves, like their demons and their demon selves look really silly.

I mean, it’s people in big rubber suits terrible. It’s not good. I mean, if I wore that for Halloween, I’d be really proud of myself. But in a movie, read that. Whoa. 

Todd: No, I read actually that the, uh, the guy who worked on the cat monster suit, it wasn’t actually his, his original design. There were time constraints.

Uh, and so he, they had a more like articulated version of it and they couldn’t use it. So he ended up using these rubber suits, which was, Oh man, somebody should’ve thrown another million at this or something. At least upgraded those suits, especially by the end, by the time we get to the final sequence when those suits are a major character.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: It’s a really bad way to end the movie, to be honest. 

Craig: Yeah, they’re not great. Anyway, then Tanya comes over the next day, she interacts with the mother, blah, blah, whatever, but they, they go to the cemetery. 

Todd: Now wait just a second, Craig. So we get that scene with them in the mirror so we can see that the mirror reflects their true selves, and I thought, is this just a device or are they telling us that the mirror always reflects their true selves?

Then during the scene where the daughter comes over to the house and the mother invites her in before they have these giant mirrors. In their living room, which the mom is parading the girl through and the son is looking with horror at the fact that the mother’s true self is in the mirror, and it’s kind of a reverse of his, of the girl scene with the boy in her bedroom where now he’s trying to distract her so that she doesn’t see his mother’s reflection in the mirror.

Craig: Even think about that. Yeah, that is an interesting parallel, 

Todd: but this whole thing like. So this guy, how do these people go on about at school, out and about with all these mirrors and all these reflections around them and not be seen? How can they be so cavalier around all of this? If the mirror is always showing their reflection, their mirrors on their card, that don’t seem to actually do it.

There’s, I mean, this seems like it would be a major point, you know, like a vampire kind of thing, uh, where, you know, you don’t see the reflection, but it only comes up in a couple of different scenes. 

Craig: Yeah, I hadn’t, I, I didn’t think that much about it. Well, him especially because he’s out living his life.

It doesn’t seem like the mom ever house ever. She’s just stands there looking out the windows. Like she’s literally standing around the house looking out the window all the time. 

Todd: As cats slowly come up to that, like it becomes a CAD magnet. 

Craig: Right. Like the cat army is for me. Right. That’s 

Todd: right. 

Craig: Which becomes significant.

So they go to the cemetery and there’s such a stupid line. 

Todd: Oh, I love this line. This is my favorite line. 

Craig: He’s got, you know, his paper and his chalk and stuff, and he’s like, I’d better get these out of the way right off your mother’s gonna want to know some rubbing went on out here. Me too, Charles.

It was the best. 

Todd: Oh God. He’s 

Craig: the horniest Virgin I’ve ever seen on film. She is so horny. She cannot wait to get his pants off. 

Todd: She’s ready to give it up right here. Right now for this guy without, Oh 

Craig: yeah, she is. For sure. And she’s like taking his pictures and then for some unexplainable reason, we see a shot of the car where they parked it and he, he turned it into a different car to avoid the cop.

But now it just turns back inexplicably, which is convenient because then the cop comes and sees it. But anyway, they like tussle around on the ground and they kiss and she’s totally putting the moves on him like she is DTF. Then he. Starts to suck the life force out of her and she gets a little bit uncomfortable.

And then, you know, like up until this moment, like he was giving her, like when she wasn’t even paying attention to him, he was looking at her longingly. It seemed like he was totally into her. And then as soon as this happens, I mean, maybe it’s just like the taste of the life force like broth. Back his beastly urges or something, I don’t know.

But from this point on, not only does he get very aggressive with her, but he also gets like all, he’s a standup comedian. All 

Todd: of a sudden it’s really, it’s bad. Well, it’s a change in his character. 

Craig: It’s the thing that bothers me the most about the movie. I can be down with just about everything else, but all of a sudden he’s cracking one liners all over the place and it’s just stupid.

But I’m proud of her. Because she fights, you know, she scratches his face and you know, what he’s trying to do and what he’s trying to do is out of the realm of reality. So it makes it a little bit less uncomfortable, but it’s very reminiscent of a rape scene. I mean, that’s what it feels like. Yeah. 

Todd: With blood.

Craig: He, you know, he’s holding her down. And at one point, like she, she grabs a corkscrew and she stabs him in the eyeball with it. And, um, he starts bleeding in a screaming and an executive. Look at his shirt. My mother’s gonna kill me. It’s ridiculous. And the other ridiculous thing, like he turns like his face turns into like demon cat face and she sees it, and then she knocks him out with her camera and she starts to run away.

But then she turns back and is like, Charles. He okay, like, are you serious? Like this guy just tried to fricking kill you, like leave. Who cares if he’s okay? Hopefully he’s not. But then Andy and Clovis show up and conveniently, as soon as they show up because they see the car, um, Tonya comes running out.

She’s like, come on, come on. We got to go. And he’s like, no, no, it’s okay. I’ll take care of it. And from behind, Charles stabs him in the ear with a pencil and it like, and then not only that, but then he falls to the ground and lands on the pencil, which goes further into his head. And then Charles is. Still trying to get Tanya, but somehow with this pencil embedded deep into his brain, Andy still gets up and shoots Charles in the back.

Now it seems like Charles is virtually invincible. Yeah. None of this stuff is really bothering him at all, but he grabs Andy’s gun and shoots Andy in the gut and he’s dead. But then Clovis is pissed. And so. Clovis jumps out of the car and attacks Charles, and that clearly hurts him. And like the cat is like on his face, like just like clung to his face and like smoke is coming out of his wounds and stuff.

And so eventually, once he gets Clovis off of his face, Charles. Leaves. And so Tanya is there alone in the cop car, and she gets on the CB and is calling for help and stuff. And, uh, eventually help comes. But I, it’s such an inconsequential part of the movie, but I found it. Actually really sad that after Charles leaves, Clovis goes over and crawls up on Andy’s chest and it was just me out.

Todd: I thought this was so corny. I’m so sorry. I saw the same scene and I thought, of course you’re going to do this in this scene. And I thought it was corny. 

Craig: You’re not a pet person. 

Todd: I am a cat 

Craig: person. Oh, that’s true. You are a cabs. 

Todd: I’m a cat person. 

Craig: I thought it was because they had such a cute relationship.

They were like, they were like their own little buddy cop movie and this is. Wow. 

Todd: Somehow this, this cut through the camp for you. I’m really, I’m really kind of assigned myself here. I mean, I’m watching this movie this whole time, and even the relationship between these two guys, I’m like, this is so silly.

The writing was so goofy. The stuff, even the songs he was seeing in the car were kind of dumb. I don’t know, man. Okay. Sorry. 

Craig: They were dumb. If you’re driving or if you’re driving around in a car all day with your cat, what are you going to do? I would be goofy songs at some point, like maybe not all the time, but okay, so this is where I thought.

The movie started to get really good, first of all. Okay, so the cops and forensics and everybody shows up at the scene, and this is where we have like a bazillion cameos. Stephen King is like the cemetery overseer, Tobe Hooper is there. Clive Barker is there. 

Todd: John land is 

Craig: all just making these tiny one-line cameos, but even just seeing Stephen King and Clive Barker in frame together, I’m like.

Wow, 

Todd: crazy. Well, the scene only really exists to do this. I mean, 

Craig: it’s 

Todd: purely and clearly they’re just all chewing the scenery. And I thought it was rather awkward, especially this like three minute shot of Stephen King going from one person to another saying the same thing before he comes to the sheriff who says, get away from me, and then boom, he’s gone.

Craig: And again, I loved Stephen King and he cameos in his movies a lot, and he’s awful. He’s horrible,

but you forgive it because he’s doing Kagan, you know that he’s just there for fun or whatever, and then it’s fine. 

Todd: He’s the Stanley of, of the, of his movies. 

Craig: Yeah. Oh, totally. Okay. Zone. Right, exactly. And they take photographs of. Her bruises cause she is beat up. But getting the pictures taken of her reminds her, she tells them, I took pictures of him, you know, develop the film or whatever.

Okay. So, uh, they take her home and her parents are concerned as they would be, and she takes a bath and she has, you know, she imagines him showing up and he’s not really there. Meanwhile, Charles, he’s in terrible shape too. And Mary is. You know, just beside herself with concern, trying to take care of him.

She says, you know, they’re going to be here soon, meaning the cops. And he’s like, it’s okay. We can leave. I’ll be okay. And she says, no, you’re too weak. So she makes them, she makes them both invisible and she makes the car invisible. And the cops do show up and out of nowhere. Ron Perlman. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. Ron Perlman 

Craig: as one of the cops, like, where is he?

What 

Todd: are you doing? Like I couldn’t understand this either. Like first was the shock, like, Oh my God, Ron Perlman, and then I’m like, why are we seeing another cop? We’re 20 minutes away from the end of the movie and say, this other cop suddenly has this huge role. Uh, for the last 20 minutes, he steals it, you know, he’s basically upstaging everybody.

Craig: Yeah, he’s a commanding personality. But anyway, okay. So they come in, they don’t find anybody, cause they’re invisibles they leave, but they leave people. Two cops on guard. Mary kills the guard cops by sneaking up behind them invisibly. And then she goes to Tanya’s house and just knocked on the door and she’s like, Oh, hello.

I’m mrs . Whatever, and I’m Charles his mom, and he couldn’t make it. And the dad’s like, uh, leave. So this part surprised me because she breaks like a crystal vase over his head and like his face gets totally torn up. I don’t know if it’s supposed to be suggested that he’s dead. I don’t believe that that would have killed him.

And I don’t believe, I don’t want to believe that it would have killed them because I don’t want Tanya’s parents to die. She’s been through enough and they’re nice. Um, and I was watching very carefully. There’s one point when the mother comes down and she runs to her husband and he’s clearly still breathing, so in my mind he’s okay.

Okay. 

Todd: That makes you happy. 

Craig: Then Mary talks talks too. I mean, it’s all very tense, but she’s talking to the mother and. She’s like, your daughter almost killed my son. And the mom’s like, good, I wish he did. I wish you were both dead. And Mary grabs her arm, breaks her arm, and then throws her out the way. 

Todd: Now, 

Craig: I couldn’t believe how brutal this was getting with these.

Nice. Sweet errands. It’s true. And then she stabs the cop in the back with a corn cob.

Todd: You got it. Eat your vegetables before. What is her line item 

Craig: vegetables before dessert. It’s so 

Todd: dumb. 

Craig: Just really dough, and then Tanya comes down and she’s concerned about her parents. I don’t even think she’s sees Mary at first. Then when she does, she freaks out, but married is knocks her out and then grabs her by the hair and starts dragging her outside.

Meanwhile, like the whole police force has shown up, and Ron Perlman. Approaches Mary and puts his hand in her face and she just grabs it and bites all his fingers off and then breaks his arm and knocks him down and takes his gun. And then dirty Harry’s style take and shoots, I guess the gas tanks of.

Two cop cars each with one shot blows up both of these cars in this little suburban neighborhood and a Hopson, one of the other cop cars with Tanya and takes her back home to Charles. Now when they get there, she throws ma or she throws Tanya down next to Charles and Charles is dead. Like he’s not moving.

He doesn’t seem to be breathing. Um, but she’s like, no, he’s not dead. He’s not dead. You know what? I bet he’d like, I bet he’d like to dance with you. So she magically makes the record player turn on and sleepwalk starts playing again. It seemed. To me based on her performance that she like through her will and a man aided him and at this point he’s discussing like his face is like half demon and it’s, his eyeballs are bleeding like is gross.

And she makes Tanya dance with them. And then surprise, surprise. Apparently he’s not dead because he wakes up and she’s like, no, Charles, do it now. And he’s starts to suck out the life force. But then what the sheriff shows up. 

Todd: I don’t even know, man. I, this whole ending was such a mess. I’m like, I couldn’t pay attention.

I had to rewind it twice just to, just to catch it all 

Craig: hiding. Well, first of all, again, again, Tonya is a bad ass. Like as soon as he wakes up and tries to start sucking her life for her, she takes both her thumbs and gouges out his eyes. Depends class. I am impressed with her and Clovis. That’s who shows up.

Clovis. The cop does show up and he sees all these cats around and he looks down at one cat and he’s like, Clovis. And then Clovis Sprint’s upstairs breakthrough window come downstairs and attacks Mary and then multiple cats start attacking him and the sheriff bursts in and he shoots Mary. But that doesn’t seem to bother her.

She transforms fully into her demon self. And she tries to get Tanya, but the sheriff throws one of those bear traps on her head, but again, that doesn’t seem to bother her very much. She picks him up and throws him on the picket fence, so he’s out of commission now, and then she goes after Tonya again, but finally fulfilling their destiny.

The cat army makes their move

and the entire cat army attacks Mary, and they’re like, she’s just like dressed in cats at this point. And, uh, she bursts into flames and she’s. Burning and like flailing around. She falls to the ground, but then Tanya is in the cop car. Mary back in her human form jumps up on the windshield. It is like you killed my son, you killed.

And Tanya puts the car in her various moves away and Mary. Falls back onto the ground and it’s just burning. And Clovis jumps into the car and scares her, but she picks him up and she hugs him and Enya plays and the cat is first and that’s the end. 

Todd: And she says, looks like it’s just you and me now, Clovis.

Oh God. Oh God, the writing is so bad in this movie. How many of these lines are we going to get? That’s what was fun about it. I mean. Making fun of this movie was the fun I dreamily campy, horrible writing. So many great people involved in such a bad production. And then at the end, you know, the rubber suits attack each other.

And I mean, it’s just, it’s nothing. Nothing quite right about this film at all. I didn’t find it quite as these little moments quite as touching as you did. You’re, you’re opening up aspects of the movie, like. Oh, I guess that’s what they were trying for there. Looks like a lice. They reached Craig. 

Craig: I swear the first half of the movie I felt was slow isn’t the right word cause it’s not like nothing was happening.

It just wasn’t particularly exciting or engaging. 

Todd: Oh, it was slow. It was slow. 

Craig: Yeah. I was really worried that, Oh man, you know, I didn’t remember this movie. I, Todd’s not going to like it. It’s going to be lame, blah, blah, blah. But then the second half I really got into it. You know, it was, the car’s works.

Bloating and people were getting thrown through windows and 

Todd: I got into it because it was going so far off the rails. I mean, I’ve been kind of kind of bored for the last, for the first 50 minutes that the, at least the last 50 minutes, even though it was nonsensical and hilarious and totally campy, at least it was more exciting.

Yeah, for sure. 

Craig: Yeah, and campy is a good word for it. And I like camp. I just do. And I thought. Ultimately that this was a fun movie to watch. Um, it took a little while to get going, but I feel like it paid off in the end, and I had fun with it and it reminded me why I liked it so much. It is campy, even the goofy stuff, like Charles’s one-liners in the cemetery, like it’s so stupid, but.

I mean, if you just roll with it, like it’s kind of funny I, and the way that it’s delivered, I felt like it wasn’t taking itself too seriously. Um, they knew what they were doing. 

Todd: Well, it’s like we said though, at that point, the tonal shift was so strong. I wondered for a moment like, is this actually supposed to be a horror comedy?

And they’re just now getting around 

Craig: to it. Uh, 

Todd: but I don’t really feel like it keeps that up throughout. So it, it’s hard for me to give them too much credit for that. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. It is a little uneven, tonally. I will say that. Um, is it a serious scary movie? Is it a comedy? Is it supposed to be some like deep edible thing that I don’t get?

I don’t know. But yeah, I liked it. And when my sister’s in town for the holidays, if we’ve got a spare minute, I may say, Hey, you wanna watch this. Funny, and it’s simple and it’s a no brainer. And I liked that kind of stuff. Every once in a while. Just goofy entertainment for entertainment’s sake and the, the effects very much dated.

But everything else is competent. The acting well, except for maybe some of the 

Todd: writing, 

Craig: the acting is competent that I felt like this and send them photography. It wasn’t anything special, but it was, it didn’t look bad and I felt like it was. Competent. I even thought that it’s a unique idea. I know that there are, there is that movie like cat people or the cat people or something like that.

I’ve never seen it. Um, so I know that this isn’t a hundred percent unique, but it’s, and it’s not entirely different from either. Like a vampire movie or a werewolf movie. So it’s not like it’s entirely unique, but I’ve never seen this particular kind of myth. Those explored on screen and it’s true. So it’s different.

I like when things. You know when people kind of go outside of the box and so for that reason I would recommend it, but I get it. It’s not a great movie. I get that. 

Todd: Well, if nothing else, it’s a fantastic display of a early nineties CGI morphing affect technology. I can’t say I would recommend it to anybody unless you’re looking to watch us so bad.

It’s good movie. If you’re looking to watch us so bad, it’s good movie. This is one of the best we’ve seen. It really is. And plus you get the added bonus of seeing so many famous people involved in it and all of these really cool cameo. So, you know, you throw all that together. It is a fun ride. It really is.

I mean, it’s, it’s enjoyable in that way, but don’t come to us thinking that you’re going to see this awesome, scary movie that’s gonna where you’re going to be so scared. You’re not distracted by the stupidity of it all. 

Craig: Oh yeah. No, I didn’t. I didn’t really think it was scary. I mean, there were some tense moments at the end.

But, uh, I didn’t think it was particularly scary, but any, ultimately, I, I’m glad that you didn’t feel like it was a waste of time or 

Todd: we’ve seen too much shit for that. 

Craig: I know we really had. And on that note, 

Todd: no more shit coming your way.

Craig: Thank you very much for joining us for another episode. The two guys, it had changed. Uh, like I said, one way or another. We’ve definitely got some more reviews coming your way. Of course, as always, if you enjoyed this podcast, we’d love to hear from you. If you want to drop us a note on Facebook or messenger on our web page, it’s always fun to hear from you and we try really hard to get back to you as often as we can and we love hearing your thoughts and your suggestions.

Uh, if you did like this episode, you can find all of our backups. So it’s all over the place on Google, play, Stitcher, iTunes on our website. Just Google two guys in a chainsaw podcast, you’ll find us. But until we meet again, I’m Craig and I’m Todd with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Happy Thanksgiving! We managed to find an obscure slasher that takes place on this hungriest of holidays. And it’s a real turkey. But it does star Jake of “Body By Jake” fame! Where ya at, our 80’s kids?

Home Sweet Home (1981)

Episode 195, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of two guys in the chainsaw, Todd, and I’m Craig. Happy Thanksgiving. Craig, 

Craig: Happy Thanksgiving. Todd. 

Todd: can you believe we managed to find a Thanksgiving horror movie this year? 

Craig: Well, I mean, there are a handful of them out there, but it is slim Pickens. So 

Todd: like last year, I feel like we hit gold with blood rage, which to this date is still among my friends.

Top five favorite episodes that we’ve ever done. It was a pretty good one, and I enjoyed watching that movie so much. I, I’ve actually returned back to it a couple times. It’s one of those, so bad, it’s good horror movies and all the right ways. And, uh, this movie, I dunno, I’m about to put it in that same category.

The movie that we’re talking about is home sweet home. It was done in 1981. The only real directing credit for a woman named Nettie. Pena and as multiple reviews online. Love to point out, this is the only Thanksgiving horror movie directed by a woman, which is really easy to say because there are almost no Thanksgiving horror movies out there.

But you know, 

Craig: we’ll give her, brought it. And there aren’t a whole lot of horror movies directed by women. So when I read that, I was, I don’t know if excited to the right word, but pleased. It’s nice to. To see a horror movie directed by a woman. We, well, we’ve done a few, you know, Mary Lambert did pet cemetery and we’ve done a couple of others, but it’s, it’s somewhat rare.

So it’s refreshing. 

Todd: It is. And so, I dunno, I’m, it’ll be interesting as we talk about this to see if there’s kind of a different perspective behind the camera that we can detect based on that. Does she do something kind of, I don’t know. What do we expect? Really? Do we expect a woman behind the camera is going to be so much different from a man?

Like she’s going to automatically bring some feminist perspective to everything? Maybe that’s unfair, you know? Maybe it’s unfair to say, yeah, you just got to have to judge the movie on its merits no matter who’s who’s directed it. Right. And then it’s written by a guy named Thomas Bush, who I looked up and happened to be a sound editor on evil dead too.

Craig: And that’s, I didn’t know that 

Todd: that’s the only other real IMDV credit he has. So, and that’s interesting because this movie reminded me a lot actually of blood rage in that it, I don’t know, I just, it felt a little similar in its hilariousness and its ineptitude and it was put out about the same time.

Also, blood rage had the involvement of at least one of the, one of the Raimi guys who had a bit part in it. I think it was Ted Raimi. Right. Then this movie, you know, has a little bit of a connection to evil dead too. And I think, like I’ve said before, I feel like at this time period, that’s like 78 to 1981 it seemed like there was this group of people who worked on these little movies that we kind of love so much that went out and we’re doing all of these little horror projects and some of them were really good and some of them were really hilariously bad, and some of them, nobody’s remembered anymore.

Another intruder was another one, right? That we had a bit of the Raimi brothers involved, and that was around, I think it was 1980 1981 or at least it was filmed then, but it wasn’t released until later. So anyway, I kind of in my head, wanted to put this movie in the same camp. And the one thing about this film that is really stood out to me, and I didn’t even know it until we started watching it, I immediately recognized the main actor was body by Jake.

Yeah. Jake. Um, what’s his name? Jake Stein. Fi Steinfeld, 

Craig: who 

Todd: during the 80s when we were growing up was, uh, he was on TV. He was . On Saturday morning stuff. He must’ve had a TV show, I think. Yeah. He was one of these fitness guys, right? Like when fitness was kinda hot and hip and, and he was in this dumb horror movie.

Craig: And I, I’ve read that he has no sense of humor about it. Like, 

Todd: like he 

Craig: would just rather really not talk about it. That’s hilarious. 

Todd: I can kind of understand that. Especially, you know, we’ve talked about this before. If you’re an actor, you’re really putting yourself on the line. You’re really putting yourself in the director and editor’s hands that they’re gonna make you look good.

And I kind of have to say that, I mean, as bad as his movie is. It also makes him look really, really silly. Yeah. He’s got the same look plastered on his face throughout the entire film. 

Craig: Oh my gosh. And he’s either just breathing really heavily or maniacally laughing. That’s it. Yeah, like the whole time.

There’s no range of emotion. Like spoiler alert at the end, he gets stabbed in the back with a butcher knife and he keeps still running around for 

Todd: hours, for hours, like until the next morning. Apparently. With a knife sticking out of his back. It’s so goofy. The other kind of cute and charming dated thing about this movie is our killer who is him, is an escaped mental patient high on PCP.

Craig: Yeah. Does anybody 

Todd: ever talk about PCP anymore? Like whatever happened to PCP? 

Craig: What did ever happen to PCP. All the crazy people were on it in the eighties night. You just don’t hear anything 

Todd: about it. No. Come on. Somebody bring PCP back. I was thinking, I just remember in the 80s people like were like, Oh man, people on PCP, they can like lift cars.

They’re like insane. Like they keep going when their body shuts down, like they’re super dangerous and cops are getting killed. Just pulling them over and all this. Whatever happened to it. 

Craig: I don’t know. I just, you had to be real careful in the 80s cause you never knew somebody was going to like the lace your drink with PCB

and make you go 

Todd: crazy. 

Craig: Crazy. It was bad news. 

Todd: But in this movie, 

Craig: certainly bad news for this guy. 

Todd: Yeah, for sure. Like he wasn’t doing himself any favors. Uh, and in this movie, he injects it. There’s like an injection seat. So I mean, the movie starts out with just a car driving down the road and pulls over something, and some guy stabs.

The dude through the window and takes over the car and then sits in the car and proceeds to inject PCP into the tongue. Did you look this up? I’m just really curious about the NCP now I use it. I don’t know. It was so bizarre and even the syringe he was using look really weird to me. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know.

I guess you can’t, can you lace a drink with PCP or do you have to inject it into your tongue? 

Craig: I don’t know. I’ll have to. I’ll have to look into that for my future PCP. Lacey, I’m, 

Todd: I’m gonna look, I’m gonna, I’m looking it up right now. I gotta look at the angel dust. Oh yeah. That’s what it was. Eight PCP angel dust.

Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. So yeah, there’s that opening scene, which you know, is somewhat promising because, uh, literally 10 seconds into the movie, you’ve got your first kill. I mean, it’s the very first thing that happens, and then he injects the PCP under his tongue. Oh. Which looks horribly uncomfortable. 

Todd: It does. And by the way, I just looked it up.

PCP is, Y is available in a variety of tablets. Capsules and colored powders, which are either smoked, taken orally or snorted. So. Oh, 

Craig: see, inaccuracy, kid can’t tolerate that 

Todd: right off the bat. This movie, 

Craig: the end, 

Todd: it’s totally 

Craig: unrealistic. 

Todd: Maybe that’s why he has a crazy, he’s totally doing it wrong, maybe.

Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. So he kills that guy. And then, uh, he just, again, maniacally laughing the whole time goes driving around and. Um, classic runs down the old lady crossing the street. 

Todd: With her groceries, whose, who drives her grocery bag in the middle of the street stops to pick them up. Yeah. 

Craig: I mean, and she’s like totally this stereotypical little old lady like scooting across the street and she sees them kind of millions, I don’t know.

Then he just nails there and she flies up on the hood and there’s blood all over the windshield and blood all over the hood of the car and then you get the title home sweet home. 

Todd: So sweet. This guy gets away with a lot, like, I don’t know where the cops are, but he knocked that woman over in the middle of a busy intersection and never bothered to clean that blood off of his car.

Craig: Exactly. He drives around with that bright red light on the white car for God knows how long and. Yeah, 

Todd: I guess the cops just 

Craig: didn’t notice. I don’t know, but that’s okay. So, and then what happens is we’re introduced to this hodgepodge group of people. I think there are like nine of them, way too many. And I.

Was desperately trying to catch all of their names, because like, if you look at the IMDP page, you know, it lists the characters and the actors or whatever, but only like two or three of them even have head shots on there. I mean, these aren’t big name people. Um, and even the ones who have head shots, this movie’s old enough that you can barely identify them from their current head shot.

Um, and there is nobody that. I really knew. I mean, I didn’t put the whole body by Jake thing together until I read about it, and then when I read about it, I was like, Oh yeah, that guy. Totally remember that guy. He looks like I’m Lou Ferrigno. Kind of. Yeah, he does. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And that’s, that’s what I, that’s what I wrote in my notes.

Lou Ferrigno type kills guy in car. Um, and then there are a couple of other folks, uh, who have been in some movies that you’ve seen, you know, I don’t even remember now. There’s a guy named Don admins, a guy named Charles. Hoyas um, who have been in some stuff. Who did you know, some one of these guys? I don’t remember which one it is.

I’m trying to pull him up now. Was actually in some, uh, pretty big stuff. Um, 

Todd: you’re probably for the 

Craig: most part there. You know what? Who am I thinking of? 

Todd: Charles hoists. Charles boys. He played Wayne. Okay. Now, do you remember who Wayne was? 

Craig: Yeah, he was like cash. I, I hate to, you know, identify people by their ethnicity.

Cause who cares? You know, what their ethnicity is. But sometimes that’s their only discernible quality. You know, in a, in a cast this big, he was like the Hispanic guy, I’m 

Todd: not even sure. Sure he is Hispanic. 

Craig: I don’t know. I don’t know if he is or not either, but his girlfriend definitely is in the movie. Um, and he’s a little bit darker complected, I don’t know.

But yeah, he was in field of dreams and, uh, space jam and some others. 

Todd: A lot of television. Right? Yeah. He’s been in a lot of stuff. 

Craig: Frankly. The person who I am most familiar with from this movie is, uh, Vanessa Shaw, who plays the little girl, and she’s the only got like two lines, and one of them is I have to go to the bathroom and she says like 15 times.

But she was, uh, the T she’s been in lots of things and she’s been in like some big, or movies, um, like 30 days of night, I think she was in, and some, some other big things. . Yeah. Which that was a brutal movie. But, uh, I remember her, she was the teen romantic lead and Hocus Pocus, which, you know, this is a horror movie podcast.

But when we were asking for Halloween, uh, recommendations, somebody said, you could always just do Hocus Pocus. And I didn’t know if they were joking or not. And I said, I responded back, I love Hocus focus, and they wrote back, yeah, me too. It’s a great Halloween movie, and that’s what I know her from, and she’s teeny tiny in this movie.

Um, but beyond that, it’s just kind of a bunch of generic looking, moderately attractive. Eighties folks. I mean, that’s just it. And a bunch of them. So many, like I couldn’t keep track of them and, okay, so it’s Thanksgiving, you know, this is our big Thanksgiving movie. And, um, they’re apparently getting together for Thanksgiving, but I, for the life of me could not understand how these people were related to one another.

Todd: Yeah. It was hard to figure that out. 

Craig: There was, some of them were family and some of them weren’t, but I couldn’t tell who was and who wasn’t. And frankly, it doesn’t really matter. I feel like the whole purpose of having so many of them was just so that they could pick one off every. Five or 10 minutes.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd: Basically that’s it. And, and people don’t really seem to notice or even care all that much for most of the movie that both folks just keep disappearing. This is, this is the craziest Thanksgiving ever, because it shows a lot of promise. At first, we’re taken to this ranch house, which is a. I don’t mean just like a single, you know, floor dwelling, like we call a ranch house.

I mean, we’re out in New Mexico or something and this house has like a courtyard in the middle and the rooms are all kind of connected by a hallway all around it. So you can go out to the courtyard and get into almost any room through a door that leads out to the courtyard. 

Craig: But then again, it’s also like a complex, because one of the guys, Scott is apparently a tenant of the guy who owns it, which is his name’s Harold Bradley, but they just call him Bradley, or they call him Brad, uh, and he lives like in an apartment like.

In one wing of this place or upstairs or something, and he’s brought his girlfriend there. And then I feel like the rest of them are kinda supposed to be related in some way. I, I don’t know. Uh, there’s Wayne, um, and he has a girlfriend named Maria who is really kind of hilarious. Like. She’s, she, she speaks some English, but she’s, she’s Charo basically,

but like really bad char. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s almost unfortunate kind of comic relief that we get from her. It’s very, but the funny thing is it’s so inept. You can’t really be offended at it. She’s supposed to be the woman who barely speaks any English and runs around. Playing her guitar very poorly singing, sadly, like not even like she’s just strumming an open guitar.

It reminds me, what’s that horror movie? I can’t remember. We watched her. If I just watched it myself. Self where somebody is doing sign language the whole time and the actor didn’t know sign language, and so they just started moving their hands around and it’s just a horrible thing to do. You know?

That’s how this woman is like, she just not even pretending to badly play the guitar. She just doesn’t just strums. 

Craig: Yeah. Pretty funny. And then there are a couple of other. Chicks. There’s like a Linda, I think, and Gail and, and then there’s Bradley, the main guy, and then there’s Bradley’s son. Who is he literally named mistake.

I think that’s his name. I mean, that’s the only thing they ever call him. I’m so weird. And he’s so weird, like he’s kinda like this. I couldn’t tell if he was going for. Like kiss army, I think salt  that’s what I decided. But he’s also like, who is that famous mime? Like Marcel Marceau or whatever his name, cause 

Todd: he does magic at some 

Craig: point.

Yeah. That was definitely the vibe that he was giving me. And he runs around in, you know. With his face totally covered in white makeup the whole time and carrying around this electric guitar and he’s just super annoying and like, it seems like that’s just like his job in life is to just pester people.

Oh wow. My lucky day two for the price of one I’ve got, you know, Scott, will you get the hell out of here? This your last time. Oh, I think the complication is developing. You get a rain check.

And everybody hates him and is totally open about it.

And plus I couldn’t gauge at all how old he was supposed to be. He didn’t seem that much younger than the other ones. In fact, he’s like hitting on Maria the whole movie. I don’t know. I mean, I guess maybe they’re supposed to be, or his dad’s supposed to be in his forties and he’s supposed to be like a late teenager.

Maybe early twenties I don’t know. It’s just such kind of a bizarre cast of characters and you don’t really get much sense of what their relationships are. They’re just all there and they’re making Turkey. 

Todd: Well, I’ve got a feeling that he didn’t even know what his character was supposed to be because alternative live and he’s running around with his guitar and he’s playing his electric guitar to annoy people, and he has a backpack, I guess with a.

He must have some batteries or something in there. It doesn’t actually make, I’m not even sure this is physically possible without a little bit more getup than he had, but he has a good a backpack with an amp on it and it’s plugged into his guitar and it conveniently disappears and reappears on him from shot to shot.

But then there’s scenes where he’s literally miming he’s doing mine basically. Then there’s a scene where he’s. Doing magic tricks with his hands. 

Craig: Yeah. Like slight of hand stuff. The actually I wish there, there is no, I couldn’t find any kind of trivia or anything about this movie. You know, the, the best I could find was reviews, but I, I wish that there had been trivia because his slight of hand work is actually pretty good.

Like, I wonder. I wonder if this guy, you know, was a magician because it was, it was good stuff. I mean, it’s, it’s a minute and a half of the movie, but it’s some good slight of hand work that he’s doing there. 

Todd: It’s maybe one of the more entertaining parts of the movie actually. So he runs around and they do all this.

What’s kind of frustrating is it’s like, um. It seems like the movie’s trying very hard to give you a sense of these characters, but either they’re so stupid or it’s just so dumb that you, you don’t, you don’t get invested in them at all. There’s a whole sequence that I think is supposed to be really funny, where this guy mistake runs around and causes havoc across the whole compound.

I mean, he’s in the kitchen and he’s playing his guitar and people are getting annoyed at him, so somebody starts chasing him and then he walks in on, is it Harold and his girlfriend who are starting to have sex and he just 

Craig: jumps at 

Todd: his dad? Yeah, just walks in on them like he does it all the time to be annoying.

Plays his guitar and his dad starts chasing him, and then he bumped somebody in the kitchen as he runs through and they start chasing them. And then there’s this dumb chase scene where almost every character in the movie is running around chasing him around a table, the Thanksgiving table, uh, and talking about what a pain in the ass he is.

But this goes on for way too long, 

Craig: right? And then, so we’re getting introduced to all these people. Meanwhile. Jay, I feel like he killed somebody else on the way there, but. I don’t remember if he like sees one of the women or a couple of the women like  or something. Yeah. Driving by and he follows them and any follows them back to their compound.

And this really is the biggest problem that I have with this movie is that the villain has no motive. Like he’s just crazy. That’s it. Like there’s. It could have been anybody that he stumbled upon. Yeah. And I suppose for a slasher movie, that’s fine, whatever. But usually there’s some sort of motivation, some connection between, uh, the killer and at least one of the victims.

And here there’s not, it’s just he happens upon this group of people and he just starts picking them off. Yeah, and I don’t know. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s low budget and it looks it and, uh, it’s 

Todd: hard to see a lot of what’s going on. It’s really, 

Craig: really dark in places. It reminded me in some places of that scene in PeeWee’s big adventure where it’s like totally black, but you can just see his eyeballs

and then the lights come in and he’s like surrounded by like wolves and stuff. That’s what it reminded me of because I just had to guess what was going on. Now, to be fair, I watched this on YouTube, so I’m sure it was a bad transfer. 

Todd: Could be a better print out there. 

Craig: Maybe, but I read that this movie is so underwhelming that it’s never even been given a DVD release, so you can find it on YouTube for free if you want to watch it.

Um, and I read that you can also buy bootleg DVD copies there, just from the video print, uh, on Amazon. So, um, it’s out there. It’s available, but, uh, the quality is. Pretty low. 

Todd: Yeah. And that’s disappointing cause I do feel like cause blood rage ha had such nice. Photography, even though the rest of the movie was so hilarious that at least it was watchable in that way.

And this movie became kind of unwatchable at times because you just don’t know what’s going on. And some of that was the photography and the lighting, and some of it just had to do with the fact that it was just poorly staged and they’re cutting from thing to thing. And you don’t really have a sense of where anybody is in this compound.

And it suffers a little bit from that thing where. Here’s a bunch of people and a bunch of stuff is going on and suddenly the killers around and then a bunch of other stuff happens, and suddenly the killers around you don’t get a feeling like he’s stalking or he’s going from place to place, or just what the geography of all of this is.

You know, it’s just, he pops up when we want to seem where he’s going to kill somebody. Uh, so there’s no real tension. There’s no real suspense. In any of this, I, I think anyway, 

Craig: it also suffers, you know, because it, it makes use of some of the most ridiculous horror movie tropes. Like they just keep presenting reasons for these people.

To splinter off, like, like dumb reasons, like, Oh shoot, we forgot to get the wine. Oh, okay. Well Linda and Gail will run off together and get the wine, and then, Oh shoot, the power went out. I guess I’ll have to go out and start the generator, or I’ll have to go out and find some fire wood. Like just.

Ridiculous reasons for them to get split off, and by the second or third time it happens, you know that, okay, well they’re dead now. It’s just a reason to get them alone or in pairs so that Jay can take them out. Yeah. Um, to be fair, I feel like they tried at least to be somewhat creative. Uh, in some of the kills, but really it just ended up being more hilarious than anything else.

There are two that are my favorite, but one of my favorites is J the bad guy. The killer cuts off the power. Brad, who’s the guy that owns the place, lives there, and so he starts up the emergency generator, but he says that, um, he’s afraid that it’ll run out of gas and just a few hours, so he’s going to go off to the gas station.

Uh, to get more gas. And he pulls up on the killer’s car, which I guess is blocking the road. So like, he shouts for five seconds to see if anybody’s around, and then he siphons off their gas and like, 

Todd: really? That’s 

Craig: right. I guess this was the 80s and people did that, 

Todd: put it, put it in the same category as PCP, you know?

Craig: Right. And so he siphons off the gas of this. Car that he doesn’t know who is it is, but then he gets back in his Jeep and all of these cars have problems. All of these people need to get new cars because there are like every day like, Oh shoot, I forgot to tell Linda that my gas gauge doesn’t work. I hope they don’t run out of 

Todd: gas.

Craig: That’s what they do. Um, but anyway, so then after he siphons the gas, Brad gets back into his Jeep and it won’t start, uh, cause it’s got a bad battery, which he’s established earlier. So he goes back to the station wagon and. Starts to take out the battery and he’s leaning under the hood of the car and from out of frame.

Here comes Jay, the killer flying into frame like a fricking linebacker and body slams the car. And crushes Bradley underneath it. And I thought, and that’s it. Like that kills him. And I just thought that was so funny. 

Todd: It’s just intense every time it’s like he, it’s like every time he kills somebody, it’s like he just shot up on a new batch of PCP or whatever he had to do.

Cause it’s just, 

Craig: cause not only does he fly into frame, but he flies into frame like.

Todd: Cackling hysterically. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Well, I have to say, actually, I thought that that there were a couple of the kill scenes that actually bothered me, and I think, well, we’ll probably talk about them, but, but this one didn’t. I think they were just so poorly filmed. And so, um, without drama. The end, they lingered for long enough that it actually felt maybe like a little Snuffy.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, um, there’s a scene where, okay, so Wayne eventually, what’s his name? No, not Wayne mistake eventually gets it. He gets electrocuted by his own. Um. Guitar guitar. 

Craig: That was the other one that I thought was pretty hilarious that it’s later in the movie, but I don’t even understand it.

Like it doesn’t even make sense to me. I don’t understand how. Jay electrocuted him with his own guitar. Now, I didn’t even notice the backpack with a generator or batteries. I didn’t even notice that, but I don’t recall him having it on at that point. And you know, he’s just running around and like, did J a like grab an open wire or something?

Yeah, 

Todd: no, it, it actually made no sense. Um, he pulled a wire off of his guitar and stuck it onto his guitar. And another wire off of his, I don’t know it, you know, it absolutely made no sense, but it, it was hot enough to melt the strings off the guitar. They got white hot and melted in their sparks and there’s smoke and you know, and it wasn’t actually the sort of overacting you usually get with electrocution.

You know where somebody who’s just jerking violently, it’s a mess. It’s how I imagined probably an electric Houston kind of goes is like you just sort of seize up and all your muscles spasm a little bit, but it just lingered a little 

Craig: bit, a little bit so 

Todd: too long on that, and I don’t know what it was. I don’t know if you felt the same way, but I watched it and I was kind of like, Ooh, that’s a little, that’s a little troubling.

It felt a little Snuffy to me 

Craig: because it was so out there and plausible. Yeah. 

Todd: I think I was looking at his face. That’s what it was. I was just looking at his face in the acting and, and that’s what got me about it. 

Craig: I the one I guess like, and you know, lots of stuff happens. Like the phones die. Linda and Gail are lost.

They flirt with some cops. Like there’s all kinds of enters essential things. But at one point, Wayne goes out to look for everybody who’s still gone. He’s mad because he can’t watch the football game. Okay? So dumb. But, um, he goes out to look for everybody else and he’s in his car and we see that, uh,J  is in the back seat of the car and.

Jay strangles Wayne, like kinda groats him, I guess. Yeah. The thing that bothered me about that, when it didn’t really bother me, it just kind of surprised me was it just looked like what real strangulation would look like. Now, usually in a movie like this, whatever he was, uh, strangling him with would cut into his skin and there’d be all kinds of blood and it would be a big struggle with like eyes bulging and tongue hanging out 

Todd: and.

Craig: Yeah, no, I mean, this one that just looked like he choked him to death. So I kind of get what you’re saying, but the movie overall was just so ridiculous that I wasn’t moved and plus I didn’t care. Oh, any of these characters? No, 

Todd: they’re not even endearing. Not a single one. 

Craig: No. I was just, I was more interested in like how like, okay, obviously he’s going to die.

So how 

Todd: poor Lyndon Gail, here’s the interesting thing. So we have that, that scene that happens earlier where the. It starts out as a thanks. Okay. We got to talk about how it’s kind of a Thanksgiving movie, right? So it’s cool because as soon as we’re introduced to these characters, we’re in their house and everybody’s actually preparing the Thanksgiving meal.

And so there’s all this activity happening in the kitchen, and then they convene in a room and have a bunch of stupid dialogue, which we kind of talked about earlier, and two of the girls decide that they need to go out and get some wine, so they go out and get some wine. And then shortly thereafter. Um, Bradley like the, the power flickers for some reason because Jay cut it.

And so Bradley goes out the, the thing with the car and the generator and all that. And then another couple goes off to bang, I think. And then Jennifer, Jennifer and Scott Bradley gets killed. The two girls I think may get killed at that point. And then it’s just Wayne and his girlfriend and the Hispanic gal.

And, and. The dude. 

Craig: Okay. Some really good, just scriptions. 

Todd: I can’t remember their names. They go in and, and the little girl, right? The little girl who just disappears, disappears forever and finally reappears and they find angel. They’re looking for angel and they find her underneath the Thanksgiving table.

And through no way I could fathom and or explain. There is an entire table set up with a lot of food on it, like the whole Thanksgiving meal somehow has been prepared and set on the table. By who, I have no idea 

Craig: because before they set it up, because everybody kept talking about how hungry they were because all of these people had gone off and then they still haven’t come back.

And we’re late into the night at this point. And that’s, and that’s what, uh, Wayne, when he left right before he got strangled, he’s like, I’m going out to find them and have the food on the day when I get back, we’re eating. And then that, that whole thing with angel is so funny because it’s such a random scene.

But Jay, the killer is watching her from outside. And I thought this was so bizarre. He’s looking at her from outside and she’s standing on a chair at the table holding a huge kitchen knife for her head. And I’m like, what is happening? And then like they realize that they don’t know where the little kid is.

I don’t know why in this moment they become concerned or maybe there was a noise or something and they go and the food, like the Turkey’s all messed up and they looked down and they see her legs sticking out from under the table. It looks like she’s dead and I thought, Oh my gosh, I didn’t think this movie was going to go there.

Like I thought the little girl would. You know, make it, and it looks like she’s dead, but it turns out she just got so hungry. She hacked into the Turkey. It isn’t sitting good, or they’re eating the Turkey leg. She’s like the wild woman of Borneo. Like she just got hugged the Vitner had her mouth 

Todd: surrounded by pieces of it and bones and stuff.

Yeah. It’s hilarious, but, but how did all that food get there? How did all that get on the tape? Everybody’s off doing their own thing. It’s late in the evening and a few of these leftover people decide, well, I sure hope there’s food leftover. It like nobody actually came back to assemble the Thanksgiving dinner except for these four when they get there.

Somebody throughout the night has somehow prepared this entire banquet for them and left it on the table. Yeah. And that’s what he does, his magic and does his miming and all this weird stuff. And we’re down to like these four plus the little girl, right? 

Craig: Well, yeah. Okay. So it’s so funny cause like mistake is flirting with Maria all the time.

And um, there’s a, there’s a part where they jam. I loved that part too, Maria. Just strumming her acoustic guitar, you know, with no Mellie or anything. And ms sake, like trying to. Follow along on his electric guitar and they’re making up a song. The other is pretty funny. The song your night,

they may be done,

but then he’s trying to be all like chivalrous. And I see, I don’t even remember where this falls cause they’re sitting at the table to eat at this point and he’s trying to serve her food and he dumps like cranberry sauce all over her and she gets all mad and storms off. And the dialogue in this whole movie is so.

Bad. Like when, uh, he spills the sauce on her and she jumps up and freaks out. Oh, I’m sorry. Please

take her to the bathroom and wash that stuff off. Give her one of your tee shirts in my bathroom and you can clean up please.

She’s so mad and I can’t believe it. What does that even mean? 

Todd: No idea. It was hilarious. 

Craig: And so then, uh. Is she Maria’s cleaning up in the bathroom and she finds dead. Linda in there. Linda and Gail had gotten killed. Gail got pushed onto a rock. Her head got smashed on a rock and, uh, Linda got stabbed with the broken wine bottle.

And Maria finds, um, Linda in the bathroom and then she gets stabbed. I, no, no, no. She gets like taken hostage for a second and finds them in his begging and he’s like, please, please, please, I’ll do anything. I’ll play my guitar for you. I’ll do some magic. Please 

Todd: take me, not her. Oh my God. And he’s like 

Craig: inches away from him.

Todd: Just chasing him through the area. It’s so weird. This scene, 

Craig: and Jay who has not. Really spoken to the whole movie. All of a sudden it’s like, ah, women are no good. They’ll bring in nothing but trouble and, and then he kills her. But 

Todd: when he kills her, doesn’t he say something like 

Craig: they shouldn’t be living in opioids cause you problems, man.

I didn’t even notice. I was probably looking at Facebook at that point. So bored. 

Todd: So bored. 

Craig: But it’s, 

Todd: it’s so weird, but it’s somewhere in this process, isn’t it? That he ends up with a knife in his back? 

Craig: Doesn’t she end up, no, no, not yet. Happened. Right now we’ve got only J Jennifer and angel left and Jay goes out for some firewood and he finds dead Maria, but they think that mistake did it, which seems like a stretch, I guess, except for that.

He was the last guy we saw with 

Todd: her or whatever. I know what you’re talking about, Scott and, and Jennifer. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m sorry. And she’s dead. And like. They are not particularly concerned. Like they like they are so calm, like they are not freaking out at all. And, and just the terrible dialogue where like they’re sitting there with this kid, this little girl, and Scott says to her, Oh, I never would’ve thought that you would have been a.

Good mother, and she’s like, I know me either, but it just feels so natural to care for a child who wrote this. This is the stupidest shit 

Todd: I’ve ever heard. Thomas Bush wrote this. That sounded wrong, evil dead to 

Craig: the kid. Like the kid, she just ki I got to go to the bathroom. He gotta go to the bathroom and the girl’s like, you don’t you just wet.

I got to go to the bathroom. So they keep taking her to the bathroom and. They’re just hanging out in front of the fire and like, and they’re like, it’s at one point Jennifer, even literally when the is like, hi, can I go to the bathroom? Jennifer’s like, I am not leaving this fire.

So Scott tinctures back, 

Todd: he does.

Craig: So, so, but then eventually the killer shows up. They think they’ve got them locked out, but of course they’re wrong and he shows up any attacks. Scott and, uh, Jennifer hits him with a fireplace poker and there’s a big fight there, rolling around on the ground. And that’s when Jennifer stabs Jay in the back with a great big, huge knife.

And this is the second time this week, this. Week on American horror story, which I love and I’m happy to promote a guy, a guy got stabbed in the back and then just went on with his business for the rest of the day. Like you need to go to the hospital and you are not going to just be running 

Todd: around 

Craig: like do not get stabbed four to five inches into your back and just like go on about your business.

That is not how any of this works. 

Todd: Craig, PCP. That’s true. This is everything I was told about PCP in the eighties like you gotta have your head chopped off if you were on PCP, it’s still going to be right around terrorizing people.

Craig: And then Scott gets his throat cut, which I didn’t see coming. I thought that he was going to make it. 

Todd: Yeah. And that was the other scene that actually really bothered me. And again, it’s because it was so ineptly filmed, but that’s what made it. Feel so Snuffy is that Scott is sort of outside and it was also very poorly stage.

I didn’t really even understand how all this worked, but somehow Scott went out a door and was standing outside a window and Jay woke up with this knife in his back and jumped up crazy and thrust his hands through the window. Pull Scott in. And then very slowly and deliberately while he’s holding Scott’s head there and Jennifer is just standing there screaming, slits his throat, and I was that one.

I don’t know that that seemed really trouble me because he just doing, again, it was score to, like you said before, like. It felt like this is kind of the way it would happen. There was nothing glamorous about it. There was nothing dramatic about it. It was this really long shot, this medium shot that just went on for about 30 seconds of him slowly pulling this knife across this guy’s throat and it bleeds a little bit, and then he drops him.

Uh, and then Jennifer runs away and we’re about 10 minutes from the end of the movie. 

Craig: Oh my gosh. I kept looking because everybody else is dead. Except for those three, the couple and the kid. Everybody else is dead for like the last 20 minutes or so of this hour and 25 minute movie. And I was like, I kept looking at it thinking what is going to happen?

And I really, I really felt like with all that business in front of the fireplace and that terrible dialogue, I felt like they were stretching for time and I was sitting. You know, on the other side of my screen thinking seriously, just to wrap it up for sure. I get it. I can’t imagine what you are going to do for 20 more minutes and they really don’t do much of anything.

No. For those last 20 minutes, it’s just really dragged out. And then this part after Jay gets killed and not Jay, excuse me, I keep doing that after Scott gets killed. Um, 

Todd: I don’t even understand 

Craig: it. I don’t either. Like there he’s, he’s running around. Jay’s running around looking for Jennifer and Jennifer.

At this point. I feel like it doesn’t even give a shit about where angel is. In fact, in fact, Jennifer and Scott ran away out of the house and it took them a while to even remember that. The kid was still back there and then they like had to debate whether or not they were going to go back and get her.

Like, I don’t remember which one it was, but one of them was like, we got to go back for it, and the other one was like, no, not going back there. I mean, I get it in the heat of the moment. I don’t really know that 

Todd: in this way. 

Craig: Denver’s L 

Todd: this way, the movie was quite realistic. Yeah. 

Craig: Then anyway, so now, uh, Scott’s dead and Jay is like stalking around looking for Jennifer, and she’s pretty much out in the open in the house.

It’s not like. Even hidden. She’s just like in a room somewhere and then she just faints. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Cuts to the next morning, which makes no sense. If he was looking for her at all, he would found out. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s just, it’s these slow shots of him maniacally cackling and laughing with that same dumb look on his face, like sliding along the walls and stuff and then cut to her and cut to her.

And then, like you said, cut to morning and the cops are there. But there’s somewhere, I’m not exactly sure where the cops, 

Craig: they’re nearby. Nearby. 

Todd: Yeah. Because then there’s this whole deal and the cops are there and she wakes up and she gets up and she walks out and I think she’s walking into where the cops are.

I mean this, 

Craig: well, they’re like, they’re like, they’re kind of like, they’re coming down the street and we didn’t really know why at this point. But as they are coming down the street, like she can see them I think, but Jay pops out and attacks her again 

Todd: from nowhere. Yeah. And he’s got the knife in his back.

What was he doing all night? Was he like in a tree or something 

Craig: like, I know I have no idea. The, the cops jump out and they shoot him. And then Jennifer has this like 32nd freak out when the cops are trying to help her. And she’s just like screaming and flailing around on the ground and like, chick calm down.

Uh, but then we, we find out. That the cops knew about this because either they or somebody had found angel, the little girl wandering on the side of the highway and they had picked her up and she had told them what had happened and where she lived. And so, um, they, they, and, and so they bring her back there.

Cause I’m sure that’s what cops would do, 

Todd: you know, bring her back to the scene of the crime. 

Craig: Right. But anyway, Jennifer gets in the back of the cop car with her and one of the cops goes with them. And the other cops like, Oh, I’m just, I’m just gonna check on the killer, I guess. And he goes back to check on the killer and we get a shot of Jay on the ground, and he opens his eyes, the end, 

Todd: this guy, you know, stabbed in the back.

He’s got blood coming out of his mouth or something like that. Shot with a shotgun. Opens his eyes. PCP. Yeah, PCP P, this is, this whole episode is nothing but just sort of an advertisement for the wonders of PCP. I’m not saying kids, you should go out and do drugs, but somebody has got to figure out what happened to this stuff because it was a miracle in the 80s and then it just sort of disappeared from view and.

And we’ve got people on Ritalin and stuff, you know, he’s brain enhancing drugs and stuff like that. But, uh, it seems like PCP 

Craig: is due for a comeback. It really is.

Oh man. 

Todd: God, this movie for me would’ve been so bad. It’s good. If it had been watchable, and by watchable, I mean, if I could have. Seeing what was happening. Maybe, maybe there, there could be someday a better transfer of this film. Maybe we just watched something that was just cloudy and dark. It was bad in that way, but I could have ranked this right up along with blood rage as a hilarious movie to watch with your friends and laugh about and joke about because it’s wrong and bad in so many ways, but in the fun ways, you know, not like don’t go into the woods where it’s just so.

It’s just so stupid. I could have really gotten behind this movie in that way if it weren’t for the fact that was so hard for me to see what was going on half the time. So 

Craig: I liked blood rage a lot better. I thought that it was at least clever and the acting was better. The acting is serviceable, I guess in this movie.

It’s not very good, really. And, um, poor body by J, 

Todd: you know. 

Craig: I mean, what else was he supposed to do? I mean, he didn’t even have it. He had like two or three lines in the whole movie and what? What was he supposed to do? I mean, they be crazy. I guess that means breathe heavy and laugh a lot. I don’t know the other, I mean, there’s no character development.

What little character development there is with the. Victims just serves to make them more unlikeable. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s true. 

Craig: I, I can’t say I would put it in this so bad. It’s good. I, I think it’s just bad. And you know, I read, you know, it got terrible reviews and this is one of those movies where I didn’t even read, you know, I, I read.

A couple of, I had to dig kind of deep forum, but I read a couple of articles that were like, you know, let’s celebrate this forgotten movie. But even in doing that, they were like, we’re celebrating it cause it’s so bad. And just like you just said, and just like, I always say, if you’re gonna watch it, 

Todd: watch it with some friends and watch it.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, watch it to. With some friends. So for the purpose of goofing on it, I mean, that’s, that’s really the only, and, and don’t feel like you have to really pay attention either. Cause there, there’s, there’s no story. There’s no twist. There’s no, I mean, there’s, there’s not even any motivation for the setup.

Um, it’s just a random group of Brandon people who get besieged by this random guy who has no. Connection to them and he just picks them off one by one. It’s a slasher movie, so it’s not like I expect it to be high art, but I certainly wouldn’t watch it again. I, I really, I, even though I do appreciate that, I felt like there was some effort made to be a little bit creative with some of the kills.

Um, I was bored. I just, I kept looking at the timestamp hoping that it was almost over and really like it. I was on my phone. I’m like. Oh, come on.

But 

Todd: Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving, everybody happy Thanksgiving. You got to take what you could get with these Thanksgiving horror movies, right? Someone’s got to make a good one one of these days. I know it’s 

Craig: surprising. It’s surprising that there aren’t more of them, but you know, I’m, I’m not particularly thankful for this movie, but, uh, uh, in the spirit of Thanksgiving, I do have a lot to be thankful for in my life.

I’ve got a roof over my head. I’ve got great friends and family and dogs. I’m even. Thankful for your ugly ass. 

Todd: Don’t start to get sappy. I’ll make Craig, 

Craig: Hey, it’s what I do. Um, well, and I’m, and I’m thankful for all the people who listened to us and who communicate with us. It really feels cool to hear from people all over the world who enjoy what we’re doing.

I mean, literally, I’m sitting here in my bathrobe on a Sunday morning just goofing around with a friend and the fact that, uh, people want to listen to that and appreciate that it, it really feels good. So thank you to all of you who reach out. We appreciate 

Todd: you. Yeah, we sure do. I, I’m standing up in front of a microphone in a room.

Um, my wife is on her phone, sitting on the sofa waiting for me to get done so we can go to bed. And I’m trying not to pick up my son. This is not glamorous work by any means. It’s not even work cause we don’t even get paid for it. But, uh, but we’re just, we just do it for the fun of it. And we do do it for you guys.

Like Craig said, thank you so much for listening to our podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to reach out or leave us some review or just tell us so much how you appreciate it. When we started out this thing, we just decided we weren’t going to, we were going to stop doing it. Uh, if it. Ceased to be fun.

And you guys make it fun. So that’s the reason we do it. And so thank you so much in the spirit of the holiday. So anyway, the movie might’ve been shit, but anyway, thank you for you guys and we do appreciate it. If you share this podcast with a friend. How that helps us grow our listenership just a little bit.

You can find us on Facebook. You just search for two guys and a chainsaw. Also find our website there. Leave us a comment, leave us a message. Let us know what you’re doing for Thanksgiving and somebody somewhere someday, sometime is going to make a decent Thanksgiving movie and we’re pretty sure you’re going to be the ones to clue us in on it so that we can actually review a decent Thanksgiving movie, one of these years. Until that time, I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Robert Forster died last month. As always, we pay tribute to a late actor by reviewing one of his (usually) awful horror films. This one has nothing remarkable about it, except that there are some remarkable people involved in it, and it has an inexplicable 80% plus fresh rating at Rotten Tomatoes. Who can figure this out? We can’t.

Episode 194, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  Well, Craig, as we often do, we, sometimes when a very famous or very popular actor dies, we try to pay tribute to that person by finding a horror movie that they may have starred in or appeared in and reviewing that. I think it was a couple weeks ago that a person named Robert Forster died. Now, that is not a name that immediately springs to my lips when I think of famous actors. But if you’ve seen this guy, you you know that you’ve seen this guy. He’s got over a 180 credits to his name on IMDB. He’s played in a ton of very big movies, as well as a lot of TV. He’s just one of those familiar faces, one of those people that you would see quite regularly, often on on television or in movies. Sometimes playing a leading role, more often than not playing a kind of a side role.  And he and he died at the age of 78 in, on October 11th. So we went back through his history, his ouvoir, and we found a movie that had actually been on my list for a while. It’s a film from 1980 called Alligator. And I think I was just perusing around the Internet as I am doing and looking at these lists of movies to see. And I probably saw a list of of monster movies, basically. And this one was on it in some way, shape, or form. And I had added it to my little personal list of movies to see, and so we saw this as an opportunity to to to chalk that one off the the list. Now it’s interesting because this movie has an 83% positive rating on, Rotten Tomatoes.  However, I’m a fanboy of Roger Ebert, and, he gave it 1 star out of 4 and said, you might as well just flush this one down the toilet like the alligator in the film. So I have to say on the outset, I’m a little bit more on the Roger Ebert side of the fence than I am on the Rotten Tomatoes audience approval rating. So how about you Craig? What’s has have you seen this before or heard of it before?

Craig:  No. I mean, those of us who grew up in the eighties knew about the whole urban legend of the alligators in the sewers. Like, but even when it was an urban legend like it was always kind of a joke. Like I don’t think anybody, or at least nobody I knew really believed that that was going on, but it was an urban legend there for a little while so it doesn’t surprise me that, somebody capitalized on that. I am surprised at the high rating. It’s not terrible, it’s it’s just kinda terrible. It’s it’s just not very good. I mean, it’s it’s it’s alright, I suppose, but, you know, it it is what you would expect it to be.  There’s an alligator in the sewer, and people have to go for it, and eat some people, and that’s about it. That’s about it.

Todd:  You know, I was getting shades of it’s alive with this one. Maybe because the baby ends up in the sewer by the end of it. But for some reason, It’s Alive was just a much better movie than this one. And but it it has I mean, it kinda comes from the same era. And if you was another movie I was getting shades of while I was watching this, and that was called Avalanche. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it. Robert Forster was also in that movie. And just at this time, there were a lot of these disaster movies, like Avalanche and The Towering Inferno and Mhmm.  And then also these kind of, like, monster ish type movies where, you know, some natural occurrence we’re really concerned, as we are now, about the environmental impact of things and True. You know, nuclear waste making things grow big or dumping alligators down a sewer and then drug testing happening and the alligator eats the dead dogs that are being subjected to these drug testing, as it is in this movie, and then becomes really, really large and we have to hunt it Todd. And, oh, you know, man shouldn’t play with things he doesn’t understand. And It’s Alive had a similar bent to it, right? It was all about, the was it bad food or or chemicals and products and food materials or whatever that supposedly caused this baby to be a monster. So, I mean, it it all kinda falls along the same lines. And I don’t know if it’s also just because of the era it was in. All the movies also kind of have the same feel to them. Maybe just by today’s standards, they’re not high tension.  There’s not a lot of music, kind of a score behind it, just, you know, sort of pumping. And especially in this case, I just never felt like this alligator was such a big a threat as everybody in the film was making it out to be, you know?

Craig:  Yeah. Kinda like if they would’ve just left it alone. Yeah. Like, right? I mean, unless you unless you worked in the sewer, you’re probably gonna be okay.

Todd:  It’s quite true. The problem was they went down there to try to find it and coax it out. Right? And then it just ended up back in the sewer anyway, so Right. It’s but that’s kinda like saying, you know, what’s the big deal about Jaws? If you just don’t go in the water, you’re fine.

Craig:  So Right. True.

Todd:  I mean, I get that. And this movie tries to do something with it, but, Todd, it was just so boring Yeah. Most of the time.

Craig:  I mean, it is it it’s it’s a Jaws rip off, and and to say rip off is fair, but at the same time, Jaws was really successful. And so it makes sense that other people would try to capitalize on that success, and it’s virtually the same thing. You’ve got this natural predator who, for whatever reason, I mean, in Jaws, it just happens to be a really great big shark. In this movie, it’s an alligator, and they are, you know, vicious, carnivorous predators in their own environment. But here, you know, you take it out of its environment and you put it somewhere where it’s never supposed to have been and then yes, you expose it. You throw in that element of, you know, humans kind of messing with hormones or or whatever and and we probably really shouldn’t. I don’t know, you know, obviously like hormone therapy and stuff, there are good things about that. But it’s one of those kind of, you know, man playing Todd kind of things where we kind of bring it on ourselves.  I don’t know. I’m getting all philosophical. It’s just a big alligator in the sewer and it eats people.

Todd:  Well, maybe that’s part of the problem with this movie is it doesn’t even try to get philosophical like that. I mean, the movie is really about this this alligator that gets flushed down the toilet and 12 years later has grown to this massive size. And it gets tracked, sort of tracked back to this lab that’s performing experiments on dogs and, the Craig, like hormone treatments on dogs. And the guy who’s supplying the dogs to the lab is also disposing of the dogs from the lab, and he’s not disposing of them properly. Everything’s a little secret hush-hush. I’m not even sure why it has to be. It sounds like the therapies and everything that they’re doing are pretty normal and pretty typical, and the fact that they’re experimenting them on the dogs isn’t raising any red flags. And so I’m not sure, except to save money, maybe, why

Craig:  this I think that’s what it is. I think they’re trying to cut down on cost. But,

Todd:  but even that is really like harped on in the movie. You know, it’s like, it’s kind of like, okay. Well, now we figured out where it’s coming from. But let’s get the alligator kinda thing. And so it’s not like it’s alive or some of these where this kind of moral question about that is really coming back to as a theme in the film. It’s like you said, it just it just becomes a giant alligators movie.

Craig:  Yeah. Well, and that’s the thing, like, what they kinda try to make the pharmaceutical company seem very kind of like shady and nefarious, but what they’re doing really isn’t I mean, we’re still doing it today. They’re trying to do hormone therapy on animals like cattle to make them larger for consumerism. You know, the bigger the cow, the more meat you get. You know, like, it’s it’s not like they’re trying to raise an army of mutant cows that are gonna take over the world or anything. I don’t know. You’re right. It I think that on the one hand, it does kind of try to make this pharmaceutical company seem very corrupt.  And they are really, but what they’re doing doesn’t really warrant that level of corruption. So it’s just all kind of silly. I wanted to talk about the opening scene just because I thought it was kind of funny and that it it set up the and and I also have a question. So allow me to summarize. This opening scene opens in one of these, like, Florida style alligator parks, which, again, we still have, where they have, like, these in America, we have them. I don’t know. Maybe the rest of the world has

Todd:  Oh, Todd. No. Trust me.

Craig:  Has evolved.

Todd:  I’ve been to a I’ve been to a tiger park here in China, and I won’t that’s that’s a that’s a story for another day. That is a that was quite an experience.

Craig:  We may have to talk about that later. Definitely. Anyway, okay. So this little family goes to this alligator park, and they’ve got these alligator wranglers, you know, kinda like these Steve Irwin type guys who get in there with the alligators. And and they say at one point, the guy who’s doing the announcing says, you know, we promised you alligator wrestling or whatever. But the Wrangler, trips and is attacked, by one of the gators. And this little girl in the audience is watching this in horror as her parents are like, oh, it’s just part of the show. And she’s like, no.  No. It’s real. But they get the guy away. I mean, he’s hurt. You know, he he got bit in the leg, but, you know, they get him away. He he’ll probably be fine. Mhmm. I don’t think we do this anymore, but I do know that this was a thing back when we were young that they would sell baby alligators as pets

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  To children. So this young girl, Marissa, gets a baby alligator, and she names it Ramon, and I will refer to the alligator from this point forward as Ramon because I’m like, that’s hilarious.

Todd:  You gotta roll roll your r when you say that. Come on. Give him proper respect.

Craig:  Ramon.

Todd:  Ramon.

Craig:  Yeah. So she gets this little alligator, and she takes it home, and she puts it in a little terrarium, and it’s all cute, and she’s talking to it. And then, for no apparent reason, her dad comes home in a rampage and because he can’t find her, like, this is my question. What is his problem? Like he comes in the house, he’s freaking out. He can’t find her. So, like, they let their kid keep getting these pets, and then they just keep killing them because they’re irritated? Like, what?

Todd:  I didn’t get

Craig:  that either. Freedom.

Todd:  That was that was so cheap. I could not understand that at all. I mean, I guess the one thing you gotta say for this movie is it doesn’t take long to get to the point. The problem is Right.

Craig:  That’s true.

Todd:  Maybe it gets to the point a little too soon and doesn’t have much to go with afterwards.

Craig:  Maybe. So you get we get to watch this little baby alligator get, you know, like fly through the sewers and there are the the pipes and then land alive, of course, down in the sewers. And then it cuts to 12 years later. But, gosh, it was just such a funny set up scene to me and so random.

Todd:  Yeah. It wasn’t clever. Let’s just put it that way.

Craig:  No. It wasn’t clever. I mean, then later, we meet Marissa again, but nobody ever realizes that it’s Ramon. Gallipigator. And this one time, she’s like, oh, when I was little, my dad bought me an alligator, but it died and they had to flush it. That’s that’s the only connection. But it cuts to 12 years later, and we’ve got this cop, detective Madison. Now is that I wasn’t even paying attention.  Is this the gentleman that we’re Yes. Paying tribute to?

Todd:  This is yes. This is Robert for this is Robert Forster who we are paying tribute to today.

Craig:  Yeah. And I, I’ve I mean, he is recognizable, but nothing clicked for me. Like, I I yeah. He was a familiar face, but not one that I could specifically tie to anything. But he’s a nice looking guy. There’s a running joke that apparently he ad libs, you know, jokes about, and he did this in other movies that he was into, he’s got a receding hairline. And like there’s this recurring joke that people are always pointing out and mentioning his receding hairline and what he should do with it. Kind of funny.  Yeah. I guess. But anyway, so he’s in a pet store and he buys a puppy because somebody he had a dog, but somebody stole it. And the pet shop owner, who was far more familiar, but I didn’t look him up

Todd:  Oh, Todd. You’ve seen him in a 1,000 things, haven’t you? He was playing the same character. Right? He’s a similar Yeah.

Craig:  He’s goofy. He’s a little bit effeminate. He’s got kind of the he’s a bigger guy. He’s bald. He wears glasses. He’s got kind of a higher pitched voice. He’s been in a 1,000,000 things. It doesn’t matter.  But, anyway, he’s acting shady, and it becomes pretty apparent right from the beginning that he is the one who is stealing these dogs. Amidst all of that going on, detective Madison is also a cop, and he is called Todd, like, these sludge tanks, I guess. I don’t know if it’s, I I guess it must be part of the sewage system. And they have found a human arm, and they’ve talked about how recently they found some other human pieces. So they’re trying to figure it out. And they’ve also found this dead dog, and they have done investigation, and there’s only, like, 3 of these dogs registered to anybody in town and they found the owner, but the owners like, this looks just like my dog, like the exact same markings and everything, but my dog was little tiny and this dog’s like great big. Mhmm. So we know there’s yeah.  So there’s something going on. And then we see the pet shop guy stealing more dogs, and he’s selling them to this place called Slade Pharmaceuticals. As you already mentioned, not only is he supplying them, but also taking the dead ones and dumping them in the sewer. And when he goes to dump them in the sewer, he, like, throws them over this wall. But when he looks down there, he realizes that they haven’t actually gone into the water. They’ve just landed on this, like, ledge near the water. So he goes down there to kick them into the water, and while he’s down there, he gets eaten by rummo.

Todd:  Yeah. And thus begins this investigation because the body parts are kind of showing up in there. And of course, they find this guy. I guess, people are down in the sewers all the time to find all this stuff.

Craig:  I guess.

Todd:  And and our investigator gets called in and and he’s and this is the funny thing. So then this guy has a past as is very typical for these police procedural movies. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of what this ends up being to its detriment, I think. Most of the movie becomes about him. And the problem is it’s not terribly interesting because he has a past. He had a partner who got killed on one of these assignments.  And for some reason, the press is really hounding him about it.

Craig:  Well, just this one guy, like, there’s just this one asshole reporter who, like, brings it up out of nowhere. Like Yeah. It’s o of nothing. Like

Todd:  Yeah. Why do you care?

Craig:  Yeah. It’s just, you know, let’s let’s poke at the elephant in the room or whatever. Like, it doesn’t have anything to do with the investigation. It apparently happened some time ago. You know, it’s not like it’s a big story. So I don’t even know why this I mean, I guess he’s just like a muckraker or whatever. But Yeah.

Todd:  And and it’s hard to understand why all of the reporters in this room, when they do their little press conference on what’s going on, are so are hounding the cops so much. I mean, who expects them to really know what’s going on this early in in the game? Uh-huh. Let alone blame them?

Craig:  Officer Madison, aren’t you the same David Madison who lost his partner in the Hotel Baldwin incident in Saint Louis?

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Believe in that case, your partner was stabbed to death, wasn’t he?

Todd:  He was shot.

Craig:  That’s right. I’m sorry.

Todd:  It’s like, what what are you saying? This guy has been chopping up bodies and putting them in the river and then discovering them and starting investigation about it?

Craig:  Well, it doesn’t even seem like he died mysteriously. Like, he just died on duty. Like Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, sadly, these things happen. I mean, that’s part of police work. Yeah. So I don’t really know what the big deal is.

Todd:  You don’t pound them about it. And then it becomes this thing where the he goes down into the sewer and, they’re looking for stuff. And he goes down with another

Craig:  He takes another guy with him. Like this Yeah.

Todd:  The red shirt guy.

Craig:  Yeah. The red shirt guy. Nobody nobody wants to go with him but this one, like, rookie, like, volunteers to go with him. And and I think that this rookie goes with him because he’s interested in his past, and he kinda wants to know more about it. But, you know, he’s not being a jerk about it. No. He he’s just, you know, kinda talking to him or whatever. And they they go down there to check it out, and they, like, the movie tries to build tension.  And that’s the other thing Todd. Like, I’ve got all these notes, like, other things happen, but they’re just not even worth mentioning because they’re just Yeah. Like some guy comes in with a fake bomb into the precinct, and, like, that’s supposed to be all tents and stuff, and it turns out it’s just a radio and, like,

Todd:  Again, apropos of nothing.

Craig:  Right. And then they’re down there in the sewer, and to build tension, Kelly is the rookie guy, he disappears. And Madison’s running around looking for him and shouting his name, and then he just reappears out of nowhere and gooses Madison like it was some Joke. Big joke or whatever. Yeah. Todd, I say whatever a lot. I listen to our I listen to our podcast and I’m like, stop saying that. You sound so stupid.

Todd:  Oh yeah. I keep all those Sorry. Sometimes I stick a few extra in just so you sound a little more stupid than me.

Craig:  I’m, like, I’m, like, a nineties teen girl

Todd:  or whatever. Like, it’s down to sewers and whatever. Gooses him and, like, whatever. And then they, like, run out whatever. And, like, he, like, shimmies up, like, whatever. I don’t even know. Yeah.

Craig:  So okay. Right. So Ramon you know. And we see, you know, there there’s some cute stuff, like, after Kelly Goose’s mess, and, like, they’re just standing there. And one of them happens to kind of swing their flashlight so that it shines behind them just briefly. And you see that the alligator is right behind them. They’re just, I don’t know, walking around

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And we get POV shots from the alligator, and it starts chasing them. And it chases them, and Madison starts to, like, shimmy up. What do you call those? A

Todd:  Bladder? It’s a bladder. Right?

Craig:  But, like yeah. It’s a manhole. Right?

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. He goes up there and and Kelly follows him, but Madison can’t get the manhole cover off. And so it’s tight in there, and so Kelly’s legs are still hanging out where Ramon can get them, and it does. And it grabs him and drags him off. So now, Madison has been present for the death of 2, quote unquote, partners. Yeah. Which just spurred that reporter on even more.

Todd:  Yeah. And so then the reporter is like, oh, what’s going on? And he decides to just go down in the sewer and look for himself, which is I don’t understand this part either. But he decides, I’m gonna go down in the sewer with my camera and investigate this for myself and see if there really is this mysterious alligator that he’s blaming this death on. So he does. He goes down to the sewer, and sure enough, the alligator eats him too. But the lucky thing is that his camera’s going off, like, you know, 10 times. And they do find the Todd, and they find his his camera, and they develop the film. And sure enough, they have indisputable proof that there is indeed a massive alligator in the sewer.  And I just felt at this point, like, the movie just kinda blew its wad right there at the beginning because I thought this reporter was gonna be the bane of his existence,

Craig:  like,

Todd:  you know, for basically half the movie and this was gonna be this huge thorn in his side. No, he gets offed right away and he ends up supplying the proof to everybody that there is indeed an alligator. So this whole thread of blaming this cop and teasing this cop ends about 30 minutes in. And the rest of the movie just is about, okay, now we all know there’s a giant alligator. Let’s go find it and get it. But the movie still tries to make half of the movie about this cop and about his relationship and how he is, and he gets kicked off the force because you know, in the midway through this investigation because he’s asking questions Todd the pharmaceutical company and the guy who runs it’s, you know, really important or something. And so he apparently just nudges the chief to knock him off the force. The chief says, you got too close.

Craig:  Mhmm. Which It’s out of my hand.

Todd:  I don’t know. It it all comes across as a little silly. Yeah. You know, quite honestly. And then he, in the meantime, has hooked up with this girl. The the girl is now a woman. The girl whose alligator got flushed down the toilet decided to become a reptile expert. Luckily, she’s still in the same town.  The town has a need for a reptile expert. And, it’s doing experiments and things or whatever. And he hooks up with her, and they form a little bit of a relationship as well. By the end of the movie, it becomes him and her trying to find the alligator while nobody else can.

Craig:  Oh, and that whole thing is so forced. That relationship is so forced. Bad. Todd, we’ll get to it. Like, and I can’t believe that we’re just we’re barely halfway through the movie. Because I’m reading, like, the things that happened next Todd him. Like, isn’t this the end? No. It’s smack in the middle.  Like, once everybody believes now, because everybody was making fun of him before for saying there was an alligator in the sewer, but now everybody believes. And so they send, like, a SWAT team down into the sewer, and they’re they just go down there with, like, pots and pans to make a bunch of noise. And the scientist, Marissa, is like, Yeah, As long as, you know, they keep moving and and making noise or whatever, they’ll flush the alligator out. The alligator will come out. And we see them doing this and we see that Ramon is on the move, but they fail to flush it out. But apparently, I guess because it’s been so disturbed in its habitat, Ramon then bursts out of the sewer drain onto the street, which I guess was my favorite part of the movie. Like it was the most exciting part. And it looked stupid and fake, but at least fun.  Like this giant alligator, like bursts out of the sewer through the sidewalk. Concrete. Yeah. Through all of this concrete onto this populated street where kids are playing and people are walking and it just kinda goes on this little rampage, and it bites a cop’s legs off, and, you know, at least it was exciting for a second.

Todd:  It’s a bunch of excuses to get people laying down on the ground where they’re easy prey for the alligator. I I don’t know if this is true, but I’ve heard that if you’re ever approached by an alligator, the best thing for you to do is just stay standing because apparently they can’t turn themselves sideways to bite you. I’m not sure if that’s actually true. But at least in this movie, it seemed like really, the only danger you were in with this alligator coming towards you is if you could do more than walk. And, you know, you were laying down on the ground for some reason while it’s coming at you. I’m still not convinced that this alligator was super fast. And it was just from here on out, now that it’s above ground, it’s this sort of magical alligator that can be where he needs to be at any given time. Well, even though he’s so massive, nobody can seem

Craig:  to find him. Enormous, and they can’t find him. Like, that doesn’t even make any sense. No. Like, get in a helicopter. Like, he’s it’s supposedly bigger than a car. If it’s really bigger than a car, it shouldn’t be that hard to find.

Todd:  Well, it’s still moving like an alligator. I mean, it’s not teleporting or anything. You know, it’s not like running like a dog.

Craig:  And they find its footprints and, like, make casts. And so I guess, you know, Marissa says he’s agitated and he’s had all of this exercise, and so he’s gonna need to rest. So He’s gonna go for water. Like, they track him to this lake or pond in the city and they bring in this Heavy, this Colonel Brock, who’s like a large wild game hunter or something. Like, he’s clearly supposed to be the equivalent of Quint from Jaws. But he’s not cool. He’s just a douchebag.

Todd:  He’s douchebag.

Craig:  And he hardly has any role at all. Yeah. I mean, he he shows up to brag about how great he is, and then he disappears for a while. And then he has one more scene where he finds the alligator in an alley and immediately gets eaten by it. Like, that’s just it. The alligator. Because it’s old.

Todd:  The alligator who almost like Jason style is just hiding in a pile of garbage at the end of the alley waiting for somebody to come out. It’s bad. At least it’s kinda fun, like, when everybody gets eaten, you see them kinda get eaten. I mean, the movie doesn’t do it all in shadow. It’s not super convincing, but at least there’s an animatronic alligator involved in some blood.

Craig:  There is. And when it when it works, it it works pretty well. You know, just like with Jaws, you know, they built this big animatronic creature, and just like with Jaws, it malfunctioned all the time. And so they were only able to use it partially and otherwise they just had to film an actual alligator on scaled set.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Which, you know, I was reading I was reading the trivia and it said, you know, they had to do that and it’s totally obvious. I didn’t think it was

Todd:  totally obvious. I think it was actually quite cool. Especially toward the end of it, we get this, you know, kind of the I I realize I’m jumping way ahead, but there’s the obligatory end scene where it’s just the alligator and the detective running through the sewer. And there’s this long tracking shot of the alligator stalking through the sewer, and it’s quite good.

Craig:  Yeah. That that stands out vividly in my memory. Yeah. I I like that.

Todd:  It’s because it’s a real alligator, and he’s moving. And, I maybe I’ve just never seen an alligator really move up on its legs like that before. But because of the scale, it looks really big and it seems to be moving just a little bit faster in a in a very determined way towards him. And that was that was cool.

Craig:  No. I I mean, it didn’t bother me at all. I I thought it looked natural. I mean, and and I suppose it was if it was an actual alligator. But, you know, at the same time, it is very like it’s stalking. Like, I don’t know. I’m no expert. I I supposedly alligators can move fast.  I mean, this alligator in this shot was not moving fast. It was just kind of ambling down the the sewer. But I didn’t it that it didn’t bother me because it seemed menacing just because it was so big.

Todd:  Yeah. Big and muscular.

Craig:  Right. Exactly. I didn’t need to see it racing down the sewer in order for it to be intimidating.

Todd:  My favorite bit in the whole movie. So so the alligator’s loose, but nobody can find it. This guy gets killed in the alley, but then it scurries off somehow. And then we get to a house where these kids are having a party.

Craig:  Oh my Todd. And we knew. We knew. So we had seen that the alligator had been hanging out in the swimming pool. This part is so funny because I don’t know where, but I have had seen just this scene somewhere else. I have no idea in what context, but I know that I had seen just this scene before. And it had to be on some kind of countdown of like craziest deaths or or something. I don’t know.  But it’s hilarious. It’s

Todd:  I thought for a minute it was Halloween, and I thought, oh, this is, like, perfect, like, Halloween movie for us. These kids are having, I guess, this costume party or maybe a themed birthday party at night. And a few of these kids are dressed up as pirates, and they come out of the house into the backyard and mom’s sort of calling after them like, hey, hey, come back. But they decide they’re gonna walk one of their friends the plank. They’re gonna have him walk the plank, which is the diving board that leads into the pool. And so we know that the alligator is in the pool, and I’m thinking, no. This isn’t actually gonna happen, is it? Because this movie up to now has been kinda TV movie. Right? I mean Yeah.  Very much. It’s TV movie tame and lame, but they walk this poor kid who’s blindfolded down down the plank, and then you see this alligator in the bottom. And about the same time the kid notices there’s an alligator in the bottom and starts to scream, he either slips or the other kids don’t notice and they push him. Something happens. Anyway, kid falls into the pool and right into the jaws of his alligator and gets eaten. This little, like

Craig:  There’s blood in the pool.

Todd:  Oh my god.

Craig:  I couldn’t believe

Todd:  It is

Craig:  a little tiny kid. I know. I was surprised well, I wasn’t surprised because I had seen this scene before, but I mean, it’s you don’t see that.

Todd:  No. You don’t. They usually they pull punches here, but no. Just toss the little kid to the alligator. That was great.

Craig:  Yeah. Meanwhile, you know, Marissa has studied the pituitary gland of that big dog from earlier. And so we find out that it’s they’ve been bombarding them with hormones and the alligator must have eaten the hormones and that’s why it made it so big. Okay. Great. Story. Whatever. And like you said, Madison gets kicked off the force because he’s pushing too hard on this pharmaceutical company, and the pharmaceutical guy obviously has ties.  He calls the mayor, and Madison gets kicked off the force. But before he leaves, he goes into the evidence room, I guess, and steals that fake bomb that I mentioned from earlier,

Todd:  and

Craig:  he also steals some real dynamite. So, like, I guess he’s planning on making a real bomb out of it.

Todd:  That’s convenient, isn’t it?

Craig:  Yeah. And not hugely illegal at all. No. Of course. But, Madison and Marissa go into the sewer with the sewer guy and they find the nest and Marissa says, If it can come back, it’ll come back. Somehow we find out that the old corporate guy Slade, from Slade Pharmaceuticals, is going to be throwing a wedding for his daughter. And the second that he mentions that, you know exactly what’s gonna happen. And I’m like, oh my Todd.  Thank god. There’s gonna be a huge alligator at this wedding. It’s gonna be amazing.

Todd:  I was thinking the

Craig:  same thing. I was like, at least

Todd:  I could slog through this movie to get to the alligator rampage at the wedding.

Craig:  Yes. Yes. And then they go off on this whole thing where Madison, like, I feel like they kind of try to make him a ladies man. Like he’s like flirting with Melissa, but his flirting is so bad. He’s like, let’s go to dinner. And she’s like, okay. He’s like, okay. But before we go, I’m going to need to know if you’re going to spend the night with me afterwards, because if you are, I’m going to have to like eat up or something.  Like, well, I might have, but since you just said that, gross, no. Like That’s

Todd:  not what she said.

Craig:  She’s like, yes.

Todd:  They don’t even make

Craig:  it to dinner. No. Hey, Jess.

Todd:  It’s so forced and bad.

Craig:  It is. It’s unnecessary. You don’t care. You know, they could’ve been friends.

Todd:  Yeah. Like, nobody cares. It’s he’s not that interesting. She’s not that interesting. They’re

Craig:  No. She’s really pretty. I mean, I get why he’s into her, but whatever. It does give him the story as they’re lying in poise coital bliss for him to tell the story of how his partner got killed. But again, it’s really not all that dramatic.

Clip:  I was looking at the guest book checking the license plate numbers. This guy comes up behind me, sticks this thing in the back of my neck, says he’s gonna blow my brains out. Took my gun, gave it to somebody else who was hiding. Made me lay on the desk face down. I heard yelling upstairs and the shots. Guy behind me ran, I couldn’t move. It’s like my legs were gone. When I finally turned around, Jerry was coming down the stairs.  He was dying.

Craig:  But it was later that he found out that the guy who stuck a gun in his back didn’t even really have a gun. Like, it was just his fingers or a marker or or something.

Todd:  And

Craig:  so that’s why he feels so guilty about it. But then that’s it. Like Yeah. The end of this backstory Yeah. It’s, what’s the point? Mhmm. Yeah. And then they go to dinner, and he’s just unnecessarily mean to her for no reason. Like like, she she says something like, I trust you or I see you.  And he’s like, woah. Back off. Don’t get so close so soon. And she’s like, okay. I’m gonna go home. He’s like, all right. Bye. Bye.  Like, this is not drama. This is just stupid. And it’s completely without any purpose or point because then just the next morning he goes and finds her at her house where she lives with her mother, and they make up and get busy in her childhood bed. Like

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Stupid.

Todd:  Yeah. And then they just kind of, stand over a map for a while and decide that the alligator must be going downstream. And downstream leads right to the Slade mansion.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  There’s a scene where the cops find the the alligator in the water and, they’re in a boat and they’re shooting at it with like machine guns and stuff. It’s it’s still diving under the water and they fly their boat over it and the flips over, and then a bunch of them end up in the water. The other part of the boat, like, they have, explosives in their boat. Grenades. I guess Todd to try to explode the alligator or to try to get it out of the water by setting charges. This was Brock’s suggestion anyway earlier. And the dude, when he flips the boat, it detonates one of those and that explodes too. So we got all these kind of convoluted reasons for these high action scenes that really, like it’s also like the police officer earlier who crashes his car because the alligator’s in the middle of the road and he swerves.  It’s like he doesn’t just crash his car into another car. The car hits a parked car, completely flips over, everything explodes, and then he crawls out of it. Just doesn’t really ring true.

Craig:  No. That’s the problem with the action scenes. Like, they the writing is just bad. I mean, there there’s not, it doesn’t feel like a natural progression. It’s just like, okay it’s time for an action scene now. Yeah. Let’s do it. And they’re fine, you know, I can only imagine that like this boat scene, you know, probably costs some money and you got things exploding, you know, boats exploding and the alligator attacking, but, it doesn’t advance the plot in any way except for it’s just another alligator attack.  And either these cops are entirely inept or this is an indestructible alligator because there are like 5 or 6 guys shooting at it with a machine gun.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And if it were completely submerged, I could kind of buy, okay, maybe the water is causing the bullets to change trajectory or slowing them down, so it’s not hurting them, whatever. But it’s, you know, like they can see it, and it’s supposed to be 30 to 40 feet long. If they can’t hit that, what is, what is the point of having these guns? Like you may as well just stand on the shore and throw rocks at it.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And and so, you know, it it makes no difference. Again, it’s just an alligator attack scene, but, yes, it leads to it’s headed towards the sewers, but for some reason, it’s going to need to make a stop at the slave mansion.

Todd:  To get revenge upon its creator. Come on.

Craig:  I guess.

Todd:  This is beautiful.

Craig:  And attack this wedding.

Todd:  It’s like Frankenstein. It’s clever.

Craig:  Well, this scene alone is really worth it.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  But you could just go on YouTube and search for this scene. Like, that’s all that’s all you need to see. The alligator shows up and like, a dog, like, runs up and sees it, and then the dog turns her tail and runs away. And then the alligator just attacks. But the best part of it is just, they are just I don’t know how they’re doing it, but they’re just throwing people around. Like, you just see people flying through the air Yeah. In every direction.

Todd:  Well, it’s hilarious. Because apparently, the alligator is whipping its tail around as well as eating people. So that’s what’s supposed to be slapping people through the air. It’s really cool, actually. And and then, again, when it’s when it’s chomping down on people, it really is. So it’s fun to see. Again, the action is really poorly done outside of that. There’s a whole deal where the Slade has locked himself in the car and won’t let one of his underlings in, and yet the car doesn’t really move or go anywhere for about 5 minutes to give the alligator time to mow through the Craig.  So it can get and and have that that scene where it bites the guy as he’s trying to get into the car. And then it, like, bites the guy, eats the guy up in front of this of Slade in the car, and then uses his body and also his tail to just bash the car in, which is Smashed it entirely. Yeah. It was quite nice.

Craig:  Smashes it to the ground. And, you know, you see Slade’s, I don’t know, some appendage hanging out all bloody. So at least you know that the real bad guy got what was coming to him. That was kinda satisfying.

Todd:  It’s nice that the alligator, you know, knew knew which address to go to and how to take care of business, you know.

Craig:  Because I thought it was it was so funny. The the slayed guy had like gushed over his future son-in-law earlier, like Todd a ridiculous extent. Like he’s my right hand man. He’s my right hand man. Like, stop talking enough about this guy. And then I don’t know if you noticed, and this is super mean because it’s not nice to judge people on their appearances, but his daughter is ugly. Like, did you notice? Like, he’s marrying off his ugly daughter Jesus. To this guy that he had a big crush on, apparently.

Todd:  He just wanted to get closer to him, I think. Yeah. Well, he did have a weird scene earlier in the office that was very awkwardly staged where he came around the desk and sat, like, a foot away from him on the edge of the desk, but was basically towering over him.

Craig:  That was weird. Wasn’t it? With his legs wide open?

Todd:  I kinda thought, like, what’s gonna what’s gonna go on here?

Craig:  Yeah. It was suggestive. Like, that that was a power move. Like

Todd:  It was.

Craig:  I’m gonna sit right in front of you with my stuff right in your face. Undurling. Oh, man. Anyway, whatever.

Todd:  It’s hilarious.

Craig:  So Ramon goes back into the sewers, right?

Todd:  Yeah. Because that’s where he retreats to.

Craig:  And Madison and Marissa are there, and Madison goes down there by himself. Marissa never encounters, really, the alligator at all. I mean, I guess she kinda sees him in the river, but that’s as close as she ever gets to him. And Madison goes down there, and he’s gonna set this homemade bomb that he made. And he finds Ramon, and it’s already been established earlier that there are these methane pockets in the sewer, and they end up in one of these methane pockets. And Madison sets the bomb, and then he ascends a manhole that he’s gonna come out of. But just as he gets to it, a car rolls over it and is stuck behind a garbage truck. And it’s a funny kind of thing where Marissa is, like, trying to convince this woman to move, and she’s like, what? There’s a garbage truck.

Todd:  But what I don’t understand is how did Marissa know he was there under that manhole?

Craig:  Well, he said something about I’ll plot out which manhole I’m coming out of.

Todd:  He did? Oh, okay.

Craig:  He said something about it. I don’t know.

Todd:  So she ended up there.

Craig:  But it seemed it seemed like while he was down there, he was just kind of running around at random.

Todd:  So Yeah. It didn’t seem like there was a rhyme or reason to it, but I guess there was. He had his his explosive on him, and he said it, you know, to count down. And, he had dropped it down into the alligator’s mouth, I guess, or down at least into the sewer, below him and was just gonna pop out the manhole, but it got blocked. So, anyway, there’s this tension filled scene, and she runs in and eventually moves the car. And he climbs out just in the nick of time for the whole sewer to explode and the alligator to be definitively dead. And they stare down the manhole and go, well, that’s that. Like, they literally say that.  And then, at the end, the camera zooms down back into the sewer, and you see another little baby alligator pop out. Maybe in 12 more years, we’ll have another giant alligator to contend with.

Craig:  Yeah. Well I don’t know.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  It I mean, I for what it is, you know, there were these creature flicks around this time. You know, many of them inspired by the success of Jaws, and none of them ever captured what Spielberg was able to capture, for whatever reason. You know, I don’t even remember I think there was like Grizzly. Right? Like, wasn’t there a bear one?

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And there were some other ones Todd, and and this just followed suit. And it makes sense when there’s a popular formula, there are always going to be people out there who are gonna try to capitalize on that, and I get it. It’s not by any stretch of the imagination the worst movie we’ve ever watched. It was fine. The the acting wasn’t great. It wasn’t awful. It it the whole thing, aside from being a little bit more gory than TV movies would have been at the time, It felt very much like a made for TV prime time movie. Yeah.  But there’s nothing inherently wrong with that either. The story’s not great. The character I I don’t particularly care about any of the characters or their backstory. There’s there’s nothing to say, oh, well, at least there’s this.

Todd:  It’s just a cash in movie, and that’s a shame because it’s got some decent names behind it. I mean, the writer is John Sales. John Sales is Yeah. Another guy to come out of Corman’s shop. You know, he did Piranha. He wrote the screenplay for that. The Lady in Red, he did Battle Beyond the Stars, which was a childhood favorite of mine. After he did this, he was he was doing The Howling, Clan of the Cave Bear, 8 Men Out.  You know, he’s still writing.

Craig:  Well, and the director, Louis Teague, directed Cujo, which is excellent. And he did Cat’s Eye, which isn’t excellent, but I enjoyed a lot.

Todd:  Jewel of the Nile, which isn’t excellent, but we watched that a Todd, and that was big. Navy SEALs. He’s done a lot of great stuff. So it’s it’s it’s and and, again, the guy that we’re that we’re honoring here, Robert Forster, certainly fine in this movie. I mean, he’s doing the best with what he has. Yes. He just isn’t given anything. You know? But there’s there’s nothing wrong with his performance.  It just isn’t a great movie. It just really isn’t. It’s not scary. I mean, it’s just kinda fun to watch this alligator do its rampage, every now and then. And it doesn’t pull too many punches there. It eats a kid. That’s cool. We don’t see that that often.

Craig:  True. That that that scene is, memorable. That’s that’s true. And, you know, and and that’s the thing. There are a couple of memorable moments. I’ll remember that scene. I’ll remember the scene that we mentioned before of the alligator kind of tracking through the sewers. That looks cool.  And the alligator bursting out of the subway grate. It didn’t look real. And I think that what made that part satisfying for me is because there were so many people around Todd witness it and to react to it. Overall, I I wouldn’t watch it again. Todd doesn’t merit a second viewing. And aside from folks like you and me who just kinda try to get our hands on as much of this stuff as we possibly can, I wouldn’t recommend it? There are far better creature movies out there that you could watch.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. You can skip this one and just enjoy us making fun of it. That’s probably the best.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. You can find us on Facebook and leave a comment there. Just search for 2 guys in a chainsaw. We also have a website out there. Leave a comment there as well. Give some requests. We do have a growing list of requests, and we do, hit those from time to time.  We also have some holidays coming up. We have Christmas and Thanksgiving, and we’re definitely looking for appropriate movies to do for there. So if you have some good holiday horror films, please give us a ring and, give us some ideas. Until next time. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

A gritty and not so great horror anthology redeems itself by the end, propelling its director straight into a career in filmmaking, and potentially bringing us a new horror icon to rival Jason and Freddy. Happy Halloween everyone!

Episode 193, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  Happy Halloween, Craig. Happy Halloween, bro.

Craig:  Yes, buddy.

Todd:  We made it through.

Craig:  We did.

Todd:  What are your plans for this, this Halloween evening?

Craig:  Oh, man. I don’t know.

Todd:  You don’t even try anymore. What’s what’s wrong with you?

Craig:  Yeah. I don’t know. III don’t do the whole sugar treater thing because my dogs freak out. So I’ll probably just, throw on a scary movie and make my partner watch it with me and

Todd:  A nice romantic Halloween at home. Yeah. Eat a bunch of candy.

Craig:  Maybe. Maybe.

Todd:  We’re gonna sit in China and pretend that Halloween doesn’t exist because ghosts and anything supernatural doesn’t exist. Basically, that’s that’s the official, motto over here. So, we just did not lose things. We’ll find something to do, some way to celebrate. Last year, last couple of years, actually, we’ve taken my son out in costume for 1 event or another. Usually, there’s a group of expats here throwing together some party. Hopefully, we’ll be able to attend 1 or 2. And I’m hoping this year to convince my wife that it’s okay to do the, chestburster alien thing, where I can just string him up around my neck and put a hole in my shirt and some blood around it, and he can be the alien coming out of my chest.  Although, he’s getting a little heavy for that now. That’s the problem. It it worked out a lot better when he was would have worked out a lot better when he was a baby.

Craig:  Yeah. I’m gonna need to see pictures.

Todd:  See if I can pull it off. Otherwise, I don’t know. It’s like some bunny ears because we have those.

Craig:  A sheet with a couple of holes in the

Todd:  Basically, yeah. Apparently, it used to be a thing in China at 1 point where a bunch of expats would actually go out, you know, and and dressed up. And the problem was they’d get on the subway and scare people to death because nobody had ever seen anything like this before. And they pretty much put a band to any funky costumes or anything on the subway that could scare people.

Craig:  Dang.

Todd:  So that that ended up you can’t even go from 1 place to another with a Halloween costume on, basically, if you’re gonna ride public transportation. But, anyway, enough about China. Let’s talk about America and Halloween. And we chose, I think, pretty appropriate, movie for this 1. It’s called All Hallows’ Eve. It came out in 2013. And, honestly, it really had not been on my radar. Although, when I look at the cover art for it, I think that’s popped up once or twice on my Netflix queue.  Always looked to me like 1 of these sort of low budget straight to video productions, which in fact it is. Yeah. However, it has gained a bit of a cult following and has, boosted the career to a certain extent of its writer director, Damien Leone. So much so that he’s busy at work on other movies. In fact, 1 of the main characters from this film, spawned, a film of its own. And then, that film is getting a sequel right now that’s currently in production. So Yep. We’ll see.  We may have another horror icon on our hands like Jason or Freddie. Maybe. Yeah. So, All Hallows Eve, I had never seen it before. How about you?

Craig:  Yeah. I had. I went, on a working vacation. It wasn’t working for me, but my my mom, had a working vacation to Denver. And, I tagged along because it was in the summer and I have summers off, and Denver was a lovely city. I really enjoyed it. But we shared a hotel room, which I guess some people might think weird, a 40 year old guy sharing a hotel room with his mom, but, you know, we it’s not like we’re in the same bed.

Todd:  Call me down, Craig. You’re you’re you’re okay. I think we’re fine with this 1.

Craig:  And, she had to work, every day. So she would go to bed pretty early about 10 o’clock, and I would stay up and, get on my dad’s Amazon account and, see what was going on. And, this movie popped up and so I watched it. And, it was late at night, and it was dark in a quiet hotel room. It made for a pretty good ambiance, to watch it. And, initially, that first time I watched it, I thought it was kind of pretty freaky.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  So I thought it’d be good for us to look at today.

Todd:  Yeah. It was a great pick, I think. And thank you for picking it. I I kind of agree with you. I had some nice ambiance for this. I mean, I was sitting in a chair, with all the lights on, my son playing on the floor just before bedtime, which is not the ideal way to watch a horror movie but nonetheless, this 1 had a pretty good effect on me actually. It’s been a while since I’ve seen a movie that has scared me a bit but I have to admit it didn’t start out that way. The movie started out for me as, kind of a groaner rolling my eyes.  Really? Am I gonna have to sit through this? And, by the end of it, I was pretty glued to the screen. And, yeah, my heart was racing a little bit, you know? That that’s a pretty big accomplishment for somebody like me who watches and you, right, who watch these movies day in and day out.

Craig:  Right. Yeah. And, you know, going back and watching it again for the podcast, I I think that I watched it with a much more critical eye this time. And and it it’s not a perfect movie. It is low budget and it shows, but there are some good ideas and there’s some pretty freaky stuff going on in some of them. It’s an anthology film, I guess we should say. It started out this Damien Leone guy had made There are 3 shorts and a wrap around story, in the movie. 2 of the shorts had already been filmed and produced, and had premiered at some film festivals and had, even won some awards and things.  But, I guess the producer of the movie found 1 of the shorts, online. III think it ended up being the the final short of the film. It it was called Terrifier, which is also the name of the standalone movie that this character gets later on. But he saw it online and he liked it and he approached the director and asked him if he would be interested in including his short in an anthology with shorts, directed by other directors. And Damien Leone, the director, was very much interested, but he convinced the producer, you know, let me do it all by myself. Let me use all my own shorts. And so he used his 2 previously shot shorts as the beginning 1 and the end 1, and then he created a new 1 for the middle 1. And, put them all together, filmed a wrap around, and that’s what we get.  You know, the 3 shorts I think have various levels of success. I think that, the first 1 is maybe the most interesting. I think the last 1 is probably the strongest. The middle 1II don’t know. It’s okay. But I don’t think it’s great.

Todd:  You think the first one’s pretty interesting, I have to say, as I was watching it well, of course, the low budget aspect of it shows. It’s interesting how he gets around some of this, by the way. I mean, these are 3 shorts that were filmed within years of each other. Yeah. With by different crew and different directors of photography on different mediums. You know?

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  And it’s clear that the first 1 was pretty much shot on video. And so, the way that he gets around this through the wrap around story is that there’s this babysitter and her 2 kids that she’s babysitting, Tia and Timmy, who are sitting around at Halloween watching, of course, Night of the Living Dead on TV because this is the default movie. Well, it’s

Craig:  public domain who wants

Clip:  to pay for it.

Todd:  Exactly. That’s what I’m saying. It’s a default classic. I mean, according to horror movies that take place on Halloween, everybody is sitting at home watching Night of the Living Dead on Halloween. It’s just what we all do because it’s free. Anyway, they’re watching that and, as little Timmy, dumps out his candy, he somebody has dropped a VHS tape in there. And I had to just double check when this movie was made. Because I’m like Right.  VHS tape and they know what it is.

Clip:  Right. And they have a working VCR.

Todd:  Already already plugged into the TV and ready to go. Like, all you gotta do is hit power, turn on the you don’t even have to switch the inputs on this thing, apparently. It just pops up over whatever is showing on TV. So, I don’t know. It’s it’s a clearly, 21st, century VCR, for sure. Because mine never worked that way. Anyway, yeah. So they pop this tape in like it’s not a tape, like it’s nothing.  Right? And, and start watching it. At first, the babysitter, of course, is smart and realistic, and she tells them we’re not just gonna put this in, So you guys go into the other room. I’ll watch a little bit of it and see if it’s appropriate for you guys. After watching the first few minutes, like any good American, she goes, oh, there’s no sex and boobs in here, only violence, so it should be okay. Alright. And the kids come back in and they start watching. And, and so, yeah. So, what we’re seeing with these shorts are basically shorts on this tape.  And they all have a slight connecting thread through it, which is good, I guess, of this clown character, that is, we we find out I’m not sure if it’s ever said in the movie, but apparently, you know, if you read it online, his name is Art. Art the clown.

Craig:  Yeah. His his name gets painted in blood at the very very end on the wall.

Todd:  Oh, okay.

Craig:  Because that’s the only reference. Yeah. And I I just wanted to say, you know, about this wrap around, like, I don’t know who these actors are. I’ll the only 1 I even looked up was the babysitter because she looks slightly familiar, but it ended up that I didn’t recognize anything she was from.

Todd:  She had this slight, Jenna Fischer look to her. I think that’s where the familiarity came from.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. And it’s not that she’s a bad actress. I don’t think that she’s a bad actress. She’s just very low key. Yeah. A

Todd:  little too low key.

Craig:  Yeah. And and not I don’t wanna say flat, but very, like, even. Like, she doesn’t have a whole lot of emotional range. I don’t know what I’m expecting out of her. She’s just babysitting these kids. She’s just doing a favor for a friend or whatever. And the kids are, I think, effectively obnoxious and annoying.

Todd:  Yeah. Pretty much. Like most kids.

Craig:  I would have sent them to bed hours before she did.

Todd:  Me too. Oh, my gosh. She’s like negotiating with them and I’m like, oh come on. I would just send those kids up to bed.

Craig:  But but I also like, you know, the when they pop the tape in, it’s not like it’s like an anthology film that somebody bought at the store and dropped in the bag. It’s like this grainy kind of it almost seems homemade and I feel like that’s kind of what it’s supposed to be. After watching the first 1, the babysitter talks to a friend on the phone and she’s like, I don’t know, it’s like some weird art film short or something. And that’s kind of what it feels like.

Todd:  Doctor. Yeah.

Craig:  Doctor. And 1 of the things that I like about it is that they’re constantly reminding us that they’re watching a movie. Yeah. You know? So it’s not like we’re getting lost in this new world and we stay there with each 1. Like they’re constantly cutting back to the babysitter and the kids watching it just to remind us they’re watching this. This is a movie. And, the director does a lot, especially in the third 1, but throughout, of making the film grainy and you know, like it’s an old VHS tape. The kids today won’t know what we’re talking about.  But our favorite VHS tapes, once you had watched them, you know, a dozen times, they started to get really grainy and you had to mess tracking and, you know, all that kind of stuff. They wore out. These shorts have that feel about them Todd. And and I I liked that. I thought it was kinda nostalgic and

Todd:  cool. It was also smart for him to cut out to people because it also cut down a little bit of that low budget, you know, feel to it. I mean, again, it gives this this excuse for these films to look kinda low rent because it’s this weird video. You don’t know what you’re watching. Instead of this movie that I just rented from Netflix and am interested in seeing, you know. Especially, this first 1. Because this first 1, I’m sorry. I thought it was just horrible.  It starts out with this woman who’s just sitting in a bus Todd. I guess or at a subway. I think station.

Craig:  Subway. Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. And there’s there’s this weird clown that shows up across from her. It just starts kind of playing with her a little bit. Now, he doesn’t talk. The clown is more like a mime really. He’s like a mime Mhmm. With mimish clown makeup. Just totally black and white.  And what I was I watched a couple interviews with the director and he said, you know, he explicitly wanted to do something with the clown that hadn’t been done before. I’m not sure he really did, but at least he gave the clown his own spin. And he wanted to make it as far away from Pennywise as possible. So instead of, you know, Pennywise is very colorful and has hair, this clown has no hair and is black and white. Pennywise talks up a storm and this clown says Oh, yeah. Nothing. And so, you know, in that way, he does give this clown its own, character that’s very unique, I think, to other clowns we’ve seen in other horror movies.

Craig:  He’s really creepy. The makeup is just really effective. And it’s also interesting. He pops up in all 3 of the shorts. He he features prominently in the first 1 and the last 1, but he pops up a little bit in, the second 1. And something that I noticed this time watching it was his character design because the fur the ones that he features prominently in the first 1 and the last 1, these were independent shorts that this guy had already made. It’s the same clown, but the character design is slightly different. In the the first 1, in this first 1, he looks very much like a man in a clown suit.

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  I mean, you can you can see, you know, his flesh tone, you know, normal human skin under his mask, in this version. Like you can see his neck and you can see his hands. In the last 1, it seems like they went more out of their way to make him seem not inhuman, but they hid the more human aspects of him. Like you don’t it it still could be a guy in a mask or it could be some kind of supernatural creeper. And I thought that was really interesting. But either way, he’s a scary clown.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  I I you know, my partner, I’ve I’ve said before in October, he’ll watch stuff with me. And he said, Alright. So what are we watching this week for your podcast? And I said, I’m not gonna make you watch this because he is scared of clowns.

Todd:  Oh, really?

Craig:  Yeah. And I pulled up the picture of Art the clown and I was like, This clown and is it it? And he’s like, Yeah, no, I’m not watching So, III and I do think that this clown might become kind of an iconic horror figure, in his own right. And I’m cool with it because he’s scary.

Todd:  Yeah. I am too. I think, I think he’s got a good look. He’s he’s full on prosthetic, especially in that third 1. Well, definitely in that third 1. And I think in the in the the ones to follow. Actually, apparently, the actor changes from these this first movie into the second 1. And I saw, some clips from the full on movie that, you know, that comes after this Terrifier.  Yeah. Terrifier. And I also saw a whole interview with, the director and the guy who plays the new 1. And he’s quite good. I mean, the the actor for the really pulls it off. I mean, I haven’t seen terrifier, but from the clips I saw and from the the interview with this this actor he just he really clearly gives this guy an edge and he has an edge in this movie too. He’s got just a really sadistic, edge. There’s nothing really funny about him.  He’s No. That’s the difference, really. Maybe if you’re looking for it a little bit of black humor, but it’s just more full on, I just wanna dismember you. And I’m smiling while I’m doing it.

Craig:  Very violent and yeah. Yeah.

Todd:  And and to his credit, that was totally intentional. I mean, the the the director stated for this movie and some other movies that he’s done, he recently did a straight to video version of of Frankenstein versus The Mummy that apparently got terrible reviews. But, in any case, he said, you know, I’m really not interested in the winking and the nodding to the audience and putting in the humor and stuff like that. He said, I feel like horror movies the whole point of horror movies is this is a genre that’s supposed to up the ante and show you things you haven’t seen before, and really push boundaries. And so, I just really wanna make my films totally serious. And so, that’s kinda what he’s accomplished here. And sometimes it works in in this movie and sometimes it seems a little silly and pretentious.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  But, you know, he’s that’s what he’s going for and that’s what he has in this character, I think. And that’s the thing that’s probably gonna set this character apart from other horror clowns is he’s not even trying to be winking and funny and and cute at all. No. Right.

Craig:  Right. Right. And this this first segment was, I I think originally titled the 9th circle. And I think that there are some interesting ideas going on here, but it’s kind of all over the place. Like you said, this girl is sitting in the subway station and this clown just shows up. And he’s freaky looking, she tries to ignore him, but then he starts kinda messing with her. Like he honks a horn at her and when she just tells him to knock it off, he comes over and sits by her and then he pulls out a flower, you know, like 1 of those clown flowers or whatever. And hands it to her and it’s almost like she’s a little bit won over, but then he’s laughing.  And like you said, he is like a mime. He doesn’t vocalize, but he’s silently like laughing and pointing at her. And she looks down into the flower, and there’s a big cockroach in it, so she throws it on the ground. And then, he grabs her and injects something into her neck.

Todd:  Oh, hand eye.

Craig:  Yeah. Or what, yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. Okay.

Craig:  And she she right. I I mean, it’s it’s very sudden and it’s very violent and kind of unexpected. And then she wakes up in what seems like maybe, a back tunnel of the subway or something. And, she’s chained up and she’s chained up down there with 2 other women. And they have to these 2 other women have apparently been down there for some time.

Clip:  What’s happening to us? This is where he keeps us. There were 3 of us. There was another girl. What happened to her? She was dragged down into that tunnel. They’re pulling us down by our chains 1 at a time. Why are you 2 just sitting there? Why are you trying to escape? We’ve tried everything. There’s no way out.

Todd:  So 1 girl gets yanked down the hallway again, and the other 2 decide, well, heck. We’re just gonna go down the hallway while we still have slack in our chains and see if we can figure things out. Mhmm. And they end up, in this kind of midst of a satanic cult thing. Some it’s just a random botch of special effects. It’s practical effects. Excuse me. And to be fair, once again, I read what the director, had said about this short, and he said, I this is the first thing I ever made.  This was gonna be, like, my calling card as a director. And he’s a guy just like, you know, we did, Dead Alive a couple weeks ago. Right? With Peter Jackson. He’s another 1 of these guys who got into horror through the, interest in these, you know, makeup effects and and and practical effects. So this guy grew up like we did in the same era watching, like, the making of Michael Jackson’s thriller. He had a VHS tape that had, like, Tom Savini screen time or whatever on that and that showed how Tom Savini did all of his effects and so he really was interested in the effects side of the movies. And so, he decided he was gonna throw everything he could into this short to showcase what he’s capable of and use that to go around and raise money for his next picture,

Craig:  which

Todd:  didn’t really work. And you can kinda see why, like the effects, they’re really not that great.

Craig:  They’re okay.

Todd:  They’re okay. They’re serviceable. We’ve seen worse, but

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s a lot of masks and you can tell that they’re masks and And, and,

Todd:  1 freaky person after another pops out and jumps on a girl 1 guy jumps out who’s just completely deformed from head to toe and starts chopping up the 1 girl with a cleaver, and the other girl’s trying to break her chains and the guy comes after her and somehow his cleaver cuts her Craig so she’s able to be free and she runs around and just bounces from down the corridor, from person to person, into freaky looking people who eventually knock her out.

Craig:  It’s like a coven of witches. Right? And and but some of them have, like, bird like faces. Like, it it it’s kinda like, you know, everything in the kitchen sink.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  It makes a lot more sense now that you’re telling me that he wanted to show what he could do because it really looked like he was like, oh, look at this. Look what I can do. Oh, look at this. Look at this. Yeah. Eventually, you’ve got, like, a witchy woman, like, stirring a cauldron.

Todd:  Yeah. Literally.

Craig:  Yeah. Right. And she they they catch her, I guess, and they have her chained down or held down to a table and she sees these witches cut a fetus out of a pregnant woman. And I couldn’t tell if that pregnant woman was supposed to be 1 of the girls that she’d been with before or a different girl. I don’t know. It doesn’t really matter. Yeah. And, so she sees that happen, and then Satan shows up.  And I thought he looks pretty good. I thought the Satan design was kinda hot, actually.

Todd:  Oh. Double entendre there. That’s great. Yeah.

Craig:  And, And she gets liked by him.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Basically. And and you don’t see that, you know. You there it’s there’s not a gratuitous rape scene, but it’s certainly implied that, I guess, these witches are capturing women for Satan to impregnate in the subway. Yeah.

Todd:  I guess there’s really not much to explain after this because at this point the babysitter, again, like any true American decides all of this stuff that came before is no problem for you. But, the minute some, you know, Satan comes in here and rapes a woman, we’re gonna have to shut it off. So Right. Right. She does. She shuts it off. And that’s the end of it. And and that’s why it is an anthology series.  Right? Supposedly. But even this 1 and even the second 1, it’s not really. It’s just part of the same movie, I think, because there’s no good ending to this. It’s a story that has really no plot and leads nowhere. Usually and again, I’m not saying everything. It always has to follow this formula. But usually with an anthology series, you get these little self contained stories that have some kind of twist at the end or some kind of satisfying resolution. You know? Yeah.  And none of the stories in here have that. In this case, these women, they get taken, and then they get axed up, and 1 of them gets raped by Satan. The end.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s it.

Todd:  And, and so then she sends them up, you know, to the upstairs and they’re gonna have trouble sleeping, of course, after this. And there’s a little bit of her getting on the phone and calling people and whatnot. And a little bit of her being a little freaked out by some noises around the house, but somebody’s egging the house because it’s Halloween and whatever.

Craig:  I I thought it was a funny joke that, like, the friend that she’s talking to on the phone is, like, are you dead yet? She’s, like, what are you talking about? Sitting on Halloween.

Todd:  True. Right? It’s a bad idea all around. We’ve seen Todd many movies. Yeah.

Craig:  And eventually, she just she watches a little bit more of Night of the Living Dead, but then she gets curious and she puts the tape back on. And again, it’s, you know, static and grainy and then it cuts into the next segment. Even the first time I saw this, the the second segment kinda pissed me off because it it it it fell out of place to me. I I Yeah. I don’t know. Okay. So you’ve got this woman, I think her name is Caroline or something like that, doesn’t matter. She is alone in this new country house that she and her husband or fiance or boyfriend or whatever have just bought, and she’s talking on the phone to a friend about how much she loves it.  It’s so much better than the city. It’s so nice and quiet, and there’s not an ambulance every minute or whatever. And the friend says, Oh, well, I hope John’s career is doing well or something. And she’s like, Oh yeah, his art career is going great, but I really wish that you would buy his most recent painting because it freaks me out. And it’s just this face, and he doesn’t even remember painting it. He just had this horrible nightmare and he woke up in kind of a trance state and there it was. And eventually, spoiler alert, at the end of the segment, it’s revealed that it’s a portrait of Art the clown. And that is the only connection that this 1 has to the other ones, and that just felt cheap to me.  Yeah. Like

Todd:  It had no bearing on the story whatsoever. Yeah.

Craig:  I mean, just Todd don’t connect it. Like, it’s it’s stupid. And I kinda, I don’t know. It was alright. You know, what happens is Not really. Yeah. The lights flash and something crashes near their house and then she starts hearing these weird noises. Eventually it turns out that it’s aliens.  I don’t even know about the alien design. Like I read that he had intended to use puppetry to do it but then the budget didn’t allow for that or something. And so it’s just a guy in a suit and it looks like a guy in a suit. In fact, it just kinda looks like a guy dressed up like an alien. Like it doesn’t Todd doesn’t even look that really alien.

Todd:  It’s like a costume, isn’t it? More than a Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig:  Even, like, the the face is that typical image that you see of aliens. It’s kind of like light bulb shaped with the great big eyeball, like, the big black eyeballs.

Todd:  Right. Which is I guess, like, a mask on him. Yeah?

Craig:  It’s a mask. Mhmm. Yeah. Like like an op like, I I suppose probably not an oxygen mask because if they breathed oxygen they wouldn’t need a mask. But like they have to

Todd:  Some gas.

Craig:  Like they’re space explorers, right, or whatever. And that’s it. I mean it chases her around the house, she talks to her fiance or husband or whatever on the phone for a while.

Todd:  Her idiot fiance slash husband, whatever, who’ll stay on the phone with her for 10 minutes while she’s saying, I’m freaked out. I’m freaked out. And he’s like There’s

Clip:  somebody in the house.

Todd:  There’s somebody in the house. Oh, well, you need to call the police. Well, I’m afraid if I get off the phone with you, you know, it it then then because the phone just started working and it might stop again. And he’s like, well, you know, you should still call the police. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry. Just tell her not to worry. And then finally, he’s like, well, maybe I’ll call the police.  And I’m like, yeah, you dumbass. Why don’t you just call the police? Like, you don’t have to make this difficult, and then maybe you should get your ass in a car and drive down here. You know what I’m saying?

Craig:  Like Well, he’s supposedly on his way. But you can also tell that the 2 halves of this conversation were filmed totally separately. Yeah. It doesn’t really sound like they’re talking to each other. It sounds like they’re saying their lines into a dead phone. You know what I mean?

Todd:  For sure.

Craig:  And so then the phone cuts out again. The alien chases her around. She just, she pulls like 1 of the vacuum o’ses,

Todd:  which is

Craig:  what it looks like, like out of the mask and it freaks out for a second, and she runs and hides in Harry Potter’s bedroom,

Todd:  through the stairs. Under the stairs.

Craig:  And, then apparently, like, the alien’s like, oh, I guess she’s gone. So it goes rummaging through her house like it’s in a garage sale. Like, what is it looking for? Like, it’s like looking at candles, like, oh. Yeah. This is nice.

Todd:  It uses, like, a little thing on its, chest to, like, send out some kind of ultrasonic signal which bothers her ears and then

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  I don’t know. But it’s just funny because, like, that’s it. I mean, you could summarize this in 1 sentence. Alien comes to house, chases her around, and then pulls her away.

Clip:  It gets her the end. That’s exactly what I said to my partner. Like,  you can summarize it 1 sentence. Aliens come, they chase her around, and they get

Craig:  her the end. And I realized that wasn’t 1 sentence, but, I mean, that’s you that’s it.

Todd:  Well, you don’t know what’s happened to her. You don’t know what they’re getting her for. In fact, all you see is her dragged away. And as she’s being dragged away, she yanks that sheet. She grabs that sheet and it comes off of the painting. And the clown’s face

Craig:  is there. Right. And At 1 at 1 point, it looks like it tried to put, like, a slug in her mouth or something.

Todd:  Oh.

Craig:  I it it it actually it looked like an octopus tentacle.

Todd:  Tentacle thing or I thought that was supposed to be, like, from his hands or something. I don’t know. You’re right.

Craig:  Oh, I don’t know.

Todd:  Hard to tell because it kind of went by so fast. It was in close-up. Yeah. It was pretty weak dude. And once again, just like the first 1, there’s no resolution here, and it’s not even an interesting story. It’s like, aliens come and there she goes. Which the babysitter turns off, and then, she gets she’s starting to feel a little more freaked out and she thinks she sees something poking out from around the corner of the hallway and we see a glimpse of it. It doesn’t look quite natural.

Craig:  That was a good jump scare. I have to admit.

Todd:  It was.

Craig:  That that made me jump a little bit.

Todd:  And she goes up to see the kids and the kids are like, you know, still sleeping in the beds and whatever and,

Craig:  Well, they’re they’re in 1 bed now because the girl got scared.

Todd:  Mhmm.

Craig:  But another thing that happens right there when she checks on them, she’s like, I saw you downstairs. And I’m like, what are you talking about? We’re sleeping. And she’s like, oh, so I suppose that was somebody else’s little foot that I saw scurrying around. And they’re like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. And she says, well, go to sleep. And the boy says, well we could go to sleep much easier if you’d stop checking on us every 5 minutes. And she’s like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, we can hear you out there behind the door turning the handle and stuff. And I thought that was kinda creepy too.

Todd:  It was.

Craig:  Like, there’s somebody else in the house.

Todd:  I don’t know. Todd which the babysitter is like, oh, well, okay. Shuts the door, goes goes downstairs and pops the tape in again. TV. She deserved it. She deserved what she got.

Craig:  Well, that’s another thing Todd. Like, when she talked to her friend okay. So she told the kids that their parents should be home around 1 AM. And then she talks to her friend. I was thinking this girl was probably in her thirties. I don’t know. It’s hard to judge people’s ages the older I get, but I was thinking she’s in her thirties. But she talked to this her friend on the phone and she’s like, do you wanna meet me for a drink after this? And I’m like, meet you for a drink after 1 AM? Like, I will have been in bed for 4 hours.

Todd:  We’re too Todd. We’re we’re too old to relate to any of this.

Craig:  I know. But yeah. She goes down to watch the last 1 and and I thought the last 1 was pretty scary.

Todd:  The last one’s solid and it’s clear that this is the movie, you know, that this is this is his swan song. This is the thing that’s this is the this is this the short that did quite well apparently at a bunch of film festivals that the producer approached him about including in

Craig:  the anthology.

Todd:  And again, it’s also quite simple, but it’s just more your typical slasher thing with this evil clown character. And what’s really good about it? I think it’s just it’s relentless brutality. It’s like I said, it’s not funny at all. And it has that sort of grind house feel. And it’s clear he was going for it too because he had added a lot of scratches and things to the film and had given the what’s, you know, was probably shot on video this thing, but, had given it that

Craig:  I I think I read that it was filmed on 8 millimeter. Does that that doesn’t mean anything to me. Does it mean anything to you?

Todd:  Maybe 35 millimeter. Definitely not 8 millimeter. Maybe 35 millimeter or for sure, definitely not 8. But, but yeah. Maybe it was filmed on film, but then he did a lot more to it as well, to kinda wash out the colors a little bit and give it and that was interesting because that 1 also set this apart from the other movies. It was instantly noticeable, you know, how different it was.

Craig:  Oh, yeah.

Todd:  And that’s fine. It was

Craig:  very Craig.

Todd:  I mean, that’s fine because, again, these 3 things can show up on this video tape and who knows, you know, where they come from or what they are. And it also give you know, it’s it’s it’s fine. Each 1 could have their own character.

Craig:  And it it made it feel gritty. It it had a very, like,

Todd:  Drive in.

Craig:  Last house on the left. Ugh. I spit on your grave kind of feel to it.

Todd:  It did. It’s just this this woman on Halloween, you know, driving down the street in in the dark, night, and she’s a little lost and her gas tank is low. So she pulls into the last chance gas station. And as she pulls out in, she’s looking to get in for some reason. Was she going to the bathroom or is she just looking for No.

Craig:  III she honks her horn from the attendant. I guess she expects this to be full service or whatever, but nobody comes out. And then she gets out of her car and goes up to the door, but I feel like before she can even knock on the door, over on the side of the building, the attendant is kind of violently throwing Art the clown out.

Clip:  Seriously, you think this is funny? You think you just piss all over the place and smear your shit on the walls? What the fuck is wrong with you? We have a new 10 seconds or I’m gonna call the cops.

Craig:  The clown very kind of scarily turns his head and stares at the girl for a while, but then the attendant kinda I don’t know, doesn’t chase him off, but insists that he leaves and then

Todd:  Sues him away. Yeah. Right. And the clown dutifully turns his back and and walks away. He’s got a big garbage bag full of something over his, shoulder.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And they’re like, well, that was weird. And she just explains to him, yeah, that she’s lost, and, she would appreciate some directions back to the road. You know, at this point, I was thinking, is this supposed to be period? You know, is this supposed to be, like, a seventies type thing? Although, the car she was driving seemed a little newer. But then later Yeah. She she has a cell phone. So I guess this was maybe pre GPS, but pre smartphone, but, yeah. That was probably it. So, yeah.  She’s got a Motorola flip phone. He gasses up her car and then he goes in for something. Right?

Craig:  Well, they they hear a noise

Todd:  That’s it.

Craig:  Inside. She says, you know, what’ll you do if he comes back? And he’s he’s like, oh, I’ve got plenty of blunt objects I can beat him with or whatever. But then they hear a noise inside and he goes back in. And he says, hold like he’s in the middle of giving her directions. He’s like, Todd on a second I’ll be right back. Well, he doesn’t come right back. So she goes in there and she hears a noise behind the door and it’s a sawing noise. I mean, I don’t know if she realizes that but I did right away.  And she opens the door to find the clown dismembering this guy with a hacksaw.

Todd:  Oh, it’s horrifying. Shocking. Yes. Absolutely shocking and gritty and horrifying and the clown just looks up at her, doesn’t miss a beat, keeps sawing away and just gives her that sort of smile, grin. The only look he has really and of course, she freaks out and runs away. And I’m Well,

Craig:  and I think that that’s another another reason that the clown’s design is smart because he is entirely black and white including his clothes. So then when you cover him in gore, like the blood just sticks out. Like it’s like it it’s just so red and and shocking against the black and white. And it’s spooky as heck to look at.

Todd:  It’s freaky. And like you said about his design, this is where you get a really good close-up shot on him. And and, his face is a little bony, almost skull like in some ways. His cheekbones really pop out and he’s got this this kind of hook nose, that when he turns profile, he’s almost even scarier. It’s like, oh my Todd. You know? When he turns and looks at her as she leaves, and she runs out to the car and I thought for sure, oh, the car is not gonna start blah blah blah. But sure enough, the car starts and she peels out of there. And she gets on the phone while she’s driving and she’s crying and she looks up at the road and there’s that clown there holding a sign that says circus and waving at her as she goes by.  And she’s like, that’s impossible. And I’m like, yeah. That’s impossible. And I’m like, finally, this is getting interesting. You know? Yeah. And, and, yeah, she she almost hits a van, which causes her to swerve off the road and stop. And, of course, like, you know what’s coming. Right? Yeah.  Suddenly, the clown bangs on the wall on the window and tries to get in. And then she manages to take off from there. And at some point, the clown ends up in the car. It’s just like supernatural clown. Right? We don’t really know why he and how he can keep popping up in these places, but it doesn’t make sense, but he can. Which makes it even scarier. And he pulls a bag over her face. And once again, I mean, this is really interesting to me because he’s not a clown with a machete.  You know. He’s a clown with this garbage bag full of tricks, basically. Mhmm. It’s it’s very different. It’s very different from Pennywise or even, you know, a lot of the other horror slasher people that we see. Mhmm. Yep. So that was cool.  And, you know, she kinda manages to fend him off and and, slams on the brakes and ends up hitting a tree, which kinda knocks the clown out seemingly a little bit. Although, you know, it’s not gonna work. I feel like at some point, she runs ahead and there’s another car in front of her. I don’t remember when that happened.

Craig:  Yeah. She did. There I think it was before he popped up in the back seat, but, she sees another car with its hazard lights on the side of the road and there’s, it it looks maybe like a woman, like, leaning forward and sleeping on her steering wheel, but she opens the door and she pushes the woman back, and she’s been totally disfigured. And her hands cut off. Yeah. Her hands cut off and she’s her face is mutilated Todd it just it’s it’s a nightmare. I think she gets back in the car and that’s when he tries to suffocate her, but she slams on the brakes and he gets kinda knocked out or whatever. And so she gets out and runs.  And she finds, like, a workshed or something. Mhmm. And she locks herself in there. Like, she locks herself in the shed first. It’s it’s like a a double door or whatever, and and she uses a metal rod to lock it or whatever. The clown comes and tries to get in but can’t get in. And so then the movie makes it seem like some time has passed. Like she’s in there and she’s tired and she’s almost falling asleep, but we see the earth.  It’s just a a dirt floor. We see it start to move. And the next time she looks up, she sees him coming up out of the ground. Like he’s dug in there.

Todd:  That’s cool.

Craig:  It’s scary. It’s very scary. And he’s got a chain with, like, all kinds of sharp stuff in it, like syringes and knives and things. Yeah. And he whips her a few times and causes some damage. But I guess a scalpel falls off the chain and she grabs the scalpel and stabs him in the eyeball with it and then she, when he’s, you know, messing with his eye, she also grabs a knife and stabs him in the back. And that’s when she then runs out and flags down this car with this guy in it, and this guy picks her up.

Todd:  Yeah. And as soon as she as soon as she hops in the car, we see a shot of the clown just sitting right back up.

Craig:  Yep.

Todd:  So, I mean, we’ve got a total supernatural clown on our hands. There’s no ones about it. And but he’s not using supernatural means to hurt people. He is sawing them up and he’s got all these weapons that he uses and it’s brutal. It’s just brutal. And they’re driving down the road and another car comes up beside them and guess who’s driving it? And this was

Craig:  With the clown.

Todd:  This okay. Thank you for guessing, Craig. Yeah. You win the prize.

Craig:  I saw it.

Todd:  Well, that’s no fair. You can’t win. This was the phone a friend version.

Craig:  The thing that we left out and I think it’s important is before this well, speaking of phone a friend, she at some point called 91. We heard her side of the 911 conversation.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Craig:  We forgot to mention that and it’s important. So I just wanted to throw that in there. But the clown, yes, comes up and she’s like, It’s him. It’s him. And the clown pulls up next to them and whips out a frickin’ gun and shoots the driver in the head. Like, dang.

Todd:  Yeah. That was pretty crazy. And, apparently, he does this too in the terra fire movie. And there was some talk, apparently, people on the Internet getting up in arms about how the director broke the slasher code, which I didn’t know there was 1. But, apparently, the slasher code says the slashers can’t use a gun. Right? He’s got to have a knife or a machete or something like that. And here, this clown whips out a gun. But he said the director said, look, I’m trying to do something different.  So screw you. Yeah. And I thought that was

Craig:  And it is different.

Todd:  It is different. It’s totally unexpected. Blast the guy in the forehead, and he’s dead. And the car crashes into a tree. I guess. Right? And Yep. The clown comes out and comes at her and

Craig:  She wakes up and she’s like, it’s a just a close-up of her eyes. And she looks over and she sees the clown, you know, kinda covered in blood and laughing and pointing at her, and then she realizes that she has been completely dismembered. She has no limbs. She’s been cut, her limbs have been cut off at the joints, like at the knees and the elbows. He has, carved all these horrible, derogatory, profane things into her body. And again, this special effect, like, you can totally tell it’s a special effect. You can totally tell the actress is just sticking her face up through a hole in the table.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  But it’s still pretty shocking to look at.

Todd:  It’s it is. It’s gross, and it’s the end. And that’s it. Like, okay. Wow. You know? There’s nothing ironic about this. There’s nothing funny about this. That’s what happens.  And so, it fades out and, the the babysitter turns off. And I went to to watch the terrifier. Like, the terrifier does end I’m the original terrifier, the 1 that was the short that they pulled out Uh-huh. And made this. This is it. Shot for shot. In the short itself online, like, at the end, it zooms in on our face and the credits roll. That’s that’s it.  So

Craig:  Yeah. I looked at it too.

Todd:  Yeah. So, yeah. So the babysitter turns it off, then things get really interesting, I think. And this Todd me saved the movie. I mean, I thought, like I said, I thought that this the third seat that the first 2 were just a lead up to the 3rd and not very skillful or really interesting lead up. Just an excuse for us to watch the 3rd. And then I thought the way that he incorporated the wraparound story in it was quite satisfying and also really scary.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  The phone rings. It’s awful.

Craig:  Oh, yeah.

Todd:  And the phone rings and she picks up the phone and on the other end of the phone is that girl’s 911 call from the car. How cool is that? And she’s responding like, what? Like, I don’t understand, like, where did you and just like in the in the short, So smart. And that just, like, chilled me. She hangs up the phone and she goes in. And then it’s this whole deal where the tape comes back on again.

Craig:  On its own.

Todd:  On its own. And, suddenly it’s a shot of, I guess, what’s either the clown’s lair or that, hallway from the first short that we saw. Whatever it is. Mhmm. And it gets

Craig:  It’s like a creepy basement or boiler room or something.

Todd:  Yeah. With pipes and things coming up and down. And it gets a little bit of the whole, The Ring kind of vibe to it. Right? Where the clown’s back there and he’s clearly looking at her, and he pops out from behind a pipe, and then he gets a little closer behind another pipe, and then he gets a little closer. And finally, he’s at the TV and he looks and and it’s cool because it’s a little mime ish as well. Right? He’s, like, touching the inside of the TV, like he’s trapped inside, and he’s rubbing it, and it’s making a squeaking sound and all that. Just like, this clown’s gonna burst out of the TV.

Craig:  Well, and he’s clearly looking right at her. Like, I actually thought this was really scary.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Like, you know, he he’s looking directly into camera, and then he gets up to the screen, and it really looks like he’s just in there, like it’s a box, and he’s in there. And he looks up at her, like looks her in the eye. And then, I don’t remember if she pushes a button, or if it just changes, but the screen changes perspective so that it’s like, she is seeing herself being taped through the screen?

Todd:  Yeah. It’s Yeah. It’s like if there were a camera in the screen. She’s seeing herself and the sofa behind her. Yeah.

Craig:  And and the clown is there.

Todd:  On the sofa.

Craig:  Right behind her. Yeah. Right behind her. And she turns around, and there’s nothing there. But every time she looks at the screen, he’s there. And he’s getting up, and he’s moving towards her.

Todd:  Oh, dude.

Craig:  I thought it was so spooky.

Todd:  Dude, that was really really scary. It’s spooky. And the only thing that stops it is that she finally manages to eject the tape, and it makes the whole screen go blank.

Craig:  And she right. And then she smashes it. Uh-huh. But then she hears screaming from upstairs, and she rounds the corner of the stairs. And I love what he did here Todd. He takes it from being this clean, crisp reality and fades it into the graininess of

Todd:  the the the

Craig:  movies that she’s been watching. Mhmm. So it’s like now she’s a part of the movie, or she is her own segment in this movie.

Todd:  Yes. Brilliant. It really is good. Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. And she looks up the stairs and there he is covered in blood laughing.

Todd:  He just stepped out of the kid’s room. He’s covered in blood. He even points in there and points at her and laughs. She kind of closes her eyes and looks down. And when she looks back up, he’s gone. Mhmm. And she walks up and in, and you’re thinking, oh, okay. What’s what’s going on? She opens up the door to the kid’s bedroom and pops in.  And sure enough, they’re the 2 kids’ heads right there on the bed amidst just gore everywhere.

Craig:  Yep. That’s pretty much it. It is. Right.

Todd:  Like, I

Craig:  feel it cuts back to her horrified face, and then just like the rest of them, that’s it. We don’t really know what happens to her. And the credits start to roll, and then it gets real grainy, and it cuts back to that same kind of scene that Yeah. She had seen with the clown looking at her and coming towards the screen, but it’s like now it’s coming towards you.

Todd:  That was a a really nice touch. Really nice touch. I mean, to to me, I once again, if I had if I had sat down to watch this movie, I probably wouldn’t have gotten past the first 10 minutes. And then certainly, if I got past the first segment, said, oh, well, let’s see how the second segment is. I definitely wouldn’t have gone any further than the second segment. But if we were watching it for the pod since we were watching it for the podcast, you know, I had to watch it all the way through. And I’m really glad I did because I feel like just the last third of the movie really redeems it. And you might as well just cut it to that.

Craig:  I suppose.

Todd:  You know, I mean, honestly, I just didn’t like the other 2 sequences. They felt kind of maddening to watch and they felt really cheap, whereas the last third of the movie felt very polished and put together. And even though that last, you know, sequence in the anthology didn’t really have a resolution. Well, it did. It did kinda have a resolution but it wasn’t, like I said, kind of an ironic 1 or whatever. It’s just like, yeah, this bad thing happened to her. Now now it sucks. The whole movie as a whole did have a really nice satisfying ending to it, I thought.

Craig:  Yeah. I I agree. You know, the and and critics agreed with you. You know, most of the critics said, it’s not great. Most of them didn’t like it

Todd:  at all.

Craig:  Right. Right. Most of them didn’t like it at all. They they liked the character. The the clown character, they thought that it was very scary. But I think that they overall had kind of the same response, that we did. I read 1 of them said, you know, this guy clearly loves the genre and the spirit of Halloween and that comes through loud and clear. It may not be a good movie Todd, obviously there’s some passion.  And and they said if, I don’t know if it was the same Craig, it was probably a different Craig, said if as much passion had gone into the story as had gone into the imagery and the creation of this 1 really scary monster, then it would have been much better. And I agree, but this is this guy’s directorial debut. Yeah. I think there’s some promise here. I have seen Terrifier. I don’t remember much about it except for that it’s brutally violent. I mean, just brutally, brutally violent. I don’t remember disliking it, so it must have been alright.  And, I’ll I’ll watch, the new 1 when it comes out. III think that this guy has an interesting voice and an interesting style. He may not be there yet, but, I think he shows some promise.

Todd:  Well, I think, since you’ve seen Terrifier, you might be interested in this quote that I read. I I saw online that Terrifier 2, they they started shooting in April even though they hadn’t gotten all their funding. And I think within a month or 2, they had gotten all their funding. But they still, went to Indiegogo to fund a particular scene they wanted to include. Do you know about this? Uh-uh. Like, apparently, he had this I he has this idea for what, like, he called this, like, insane special effects sort of, like, shocking and epic kill sequence in Terrifier 2, like, as merciless no hills holds barred thing that would involve, like, mass mass quantities of people dying and things exploding and stuff that he wanted to put in the movie and thought it would be a climax of the movie, but they ran out of money to do that part. So he went to Indiegogo to raise a grand total of $50,000, which doesn’t sound like a lot of money to me. Right.  You know, to shoot this 1 epic scene, like, you really you’re only that short. But, they end up raising, like, $400. And so Wow. Yeah. And they promised people who contributed this that they could be in the movie, they could be killed by him. I from what I can see from the comments on the Indiegogo site, they haven’t even started shooting it yet, but they’re thinking as early as February, they might get that scene down and have to fly all those people in to do that. Pretty insane. But, anyway, I read this this, apparently, he appeared on another podcast, and he said, terrifier, the first 1, establishes art.  Now that we’ve established as what art is about, basically, we can start fleshing out the world around him and how he affects the world around him and that how that affects him as well. Yeah. Like, really? It’s a

Craig:  little deep there.

Todd:  I think I’ve kinda figured out already how art affects the world around him. Yeah. He’s

Craig:  scary clown. I got it. It’s a little bit interesting

Todd:  to see what they have in store for the second 1 if they have these grand ambitions for it, you know?

Craig:  Yeah. It will be. You know, the when I was watching this yesterday, the last thing I wanted to say about it is I think that this would make a really good date night movie, especially especially if, like, your girl or your guy or whoever, you know, it’s kind of that stereotype that you see where the girl has to kind of jump into the guy’s arms because she’s scared.

Todd:  Mhmm.

Craig:  I think there’s enough you know, scary stuff and gory stuff and shocking stuff going on here, that it would be a good excuse to get some cuddling going.

Todd:  I know exactly what you mean. If you haven’t I don’t know. If you haven’t completely driven him or her away by the subject matter, but

Clip:  if you’re Right. Right. Right.

Todd:  You’re a freak and I never wanna see you again.

Craig:  Yeah. That that just crossed my mind as I was watching it. I don’t know. I, I have to say, you know, despite its weaknesses, I enjoyed it overall. Do with that as you will listeners. If you haven’t seen it and you like horror and you’re as big a fan as we are, I say watch it. I I it’s only an hour and I think it says it’s like an hour and 23 minutes, but the 5 minutes are credits at the end, and they Oh, the

Todd:  credits go by so slowly.

Craig:  Yeah. So it’s really only about an hour and 15 minutes. You’re not wasting too much of your time.

Todd:  You could do much worse on Halloween, for sure.

Craig:  Definitely. Definitely.

Todd:  Well, happy Halloween, everybody, and thank you for joining us for another season of thrills and chills this October. We are so happy that you could join us. And if you enjoyed our podcast, please set it to a friend. We love getting new listeners, and we love hearing from you on our website. Our website is 2 guys dot redfortynet.com. We also have a Facebook page that’s, fairly active with our listeners, leaving us requests and such. You can go there and do that as well. We are gonna be getting a few more requests in in the next few weeks.  You can just search for 2 guys and a chainsaw and find us there on Facebook.

Craig:  And thank you to those of you who, recommended Halloween movies for us. If we didn’t get to your recommendations, we may have to wait until next year, or we may just do Halloween movies out of season. We’re not a

Todd:  Well, absolutely not. And and also, it’s not too late to get your Thanksgiving and Christmas horror film request in.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. The earlier, the better.

Todd:  Send those our way. Until next time. I’m Todd

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

So it’s basically a high school sex comedy with a horror theme, and not scary at all. But for the Halloween season we had to fulfill this request from Loyal Listener Neil, which thrilled Craig to no end. This is Jim Carrey’s big breakthrough – his first starring role as a frustrated teenage virgin who can’t get his girlfriend to give it up, so he turns to a female vampire instead and gets more than he bargained for. It’s goofy as hell and 80’s through-and-through, which means we more or less loved it.

Episode 192, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and the Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  Alright. Thank you guys so much for all of your Halloween movie requests. It’s really helped us this year. This time, we’re gonna try, a request from 1 of our loyal listeners, Neil. He asked us for a horror comedy. More of a comedy than a horror, but we thought it would be a lot of fun to do anyway. Craig has some very special ties to this movie. It’s called Once Bitten from 1985.  I know that, Neil posted this on our Facebook page. Craig, you immediately went, pretty much apeshit over it. So you have more of a history than I do with this. I remember seeing the posters everywhere, but, I know in 1985, I was a little too young for my parents to allow me to see a film with a poster such as this. It’s a sex comedy. It’s basically a high school sex comedy, with a small horror, wrapping around it. Yeah. How about you? When did you first see this movie? This was my first time.

Craig:  Oh, gosh. I can’t believe you’ve never seen this.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s crazy.

Craig:  I I don’t know when the first time I saw it was, but I know I was young and my sister and I used to watch this movie all the time. I I’ve talked about my sister a lot and and she’s, guest hosted with us before and she’s really not a fan of horror. But she loved this movie and she was probably the primary reason that we watched it so often. We watch this movie all the time. You know, if you look for it on IMDB or on Rotten Tomatoes or or wherever, they listed as a comedy horror fantasy is a stretch, really. I mean, you’re right. It is more like a sex comedy. It’s it’s more like, oh, like a John Hughes sex comedy kinda thing really.  But it’s funny, when it was recommended, I thought, oh man, that sounds like a lot of fun. But I thought that we had our lineup all set up already, and then it it turned out we had 1 slot left, and you said let’s do it. And I was really excited to do it, but I warned you going in. I’m like, Todd, it’s really stupid. Yes. It’s a really stupid movie, but it’s but it’s a lot of fun. And so I probably hadn’t seen it in 15 years at least, if not more. And I, you know, I remembered the plot and I remembered key moments,

Clip:  but

Craig:  I didn’t remember it that well. And I frankly didn’t have really high expectations going back in. But when I sat down to watch it yesterday, I I started watching it and I got into it and I’m like, you know what? This is stupid, but I still really like it. Like, it’s funny. It’s funny and cute and charming, and there’s some really good stuff going on here. I don’t know. What’d you think?

Todd:  Well, it’s, I have to say what I liked most about it was I knew about this movie forever. Never did watch it. And now, having watched it, it’s like, oh, cool. I finally get to watch a movie that as a young kid I really wanted to see, but didn’t or couldn’t. And it’s like being a young kid in the eighties because this movie and we’ve talked about this before, like, oh, this movie is a time capsule. No. This movie is a freaking time capsule. Yeah.  I don’t think That’s funny. We have ever reviewed a movie that is so dripping with 19 eighties frame by frame as this movie is. The hairstyles, the clothing, the locations, everything about it. It’s a 100 percent eighties. It’s pinks and neons and purples and whites everywhere and, like, pink shirts and white sports jackets over them. I mean, this whole movie I don’t know if I’ve seen a movie more 19 eighties than this 1. I mean, seriously, this move that was the thing that kept me that kept me propelled through this whole thing. I was like, this certainly, this is gonna drop off at some point.  And it and it totally didn’t. And then, you know, it even goes to, like, this kind of humor that we were into at the time. Of course, these sex comedies were really popular at the time. And then, even got a little cringey at moments. And I was like, yep. Yeah. That’s how we kinda were back then. Right? So Yeah.  There’s some things in this movie that are very well, many okay. So the movie is extremely dated. Oh, a 100%. But then there are some things in this movie that are really dated and really would not, you’d never see again. Own

Craig:  no. Yeah. And I know what you’re talking about, some of the specific things. And and, you know, we’ll get to it in talking about the plot. Todd, honestly, you know, I don’t know if it’s just because I am a kid of the eighties or what. Like, even the cringey stuff, like, I was just I was laughing hysterically. Like, I shouldn’t be laughing at this. Like, it’s not okay to laugh about this stuff anymore.  Like, Oh no, that’s, that’s not funny. You shouldn’t do that. No, it’s still hilarious. I’m sorry.

Todd:  You don’t care.

Craig:  I’m just gonna put my PC bullshit aside and No way. It’s really funny. Even the cringey stuff, like, because the characters and that’s another thing that I like about this movie. Like, the characters are so likable and it’s not mean spirited in any way, I didn’t think. Like even in those non PC moments, I didn’t feel like it was mean spirited. It was just, it was a different time and comedy was different then. And yes, I’m, you know, in many ways I’m glad that we’ve gotten a little bit more politically correct and that we don’t poke fun at certain things the way that people used Todd, but even back in the day what made some of those things offensive was because they were mean spirited, they were hateful. And this movie isn’t hateful.  It’s just goofy and playful and I don’t know. I enjoyed it.

Todd:  Well, and all of that aside, all of that stuff we’re talking about here aside, it’s pretty dumb. Like, the humor in here gets really, really dumb. And when I say dated, I don’t just mean, like, non PC stuff, but some of the humor is like, oh, Todd. I’ve heard that joke like a 1000 times before and it’s not like it originated with this movie either. It’s funny because I went back and I went to, look at some contemporary reviews of this movie And I found the Washington Post, a woman named Rita Kempley, in November 15, 1985 reviewed this movie. She was not kind to it in 1985. And I, actually, I don’t think most people were. I think the movie did quite well, among audiences.  But among critics, they just thought it was it was terrible. Yeah. What this woman said so there’s there’s a line in this movie that a guy does. 1 of the ongoing gags is that, the vampire, who’s a woman, who kind of this film centers around, has a butler assistant who is a man and he’s flamboyantly gay. And Yeah. He’s actually played by Cleven Little, who we know from Blazing Saddles. Right? He was the lead of Blazing Saddles. But he’s got so many groaner 1 liners, and he’s so over the top with his performance that you just can’t help but laugh.  1 of the jokes is that every time she summons him, he happens to be in her closet. Like, with like, he’s trying on different elements of her clothing, like, every time he comes out, he’s got something different of hers on. The first time this happens, she says

Clip:  Okay, Sebastian. Out of the closet.

Todd:  I came out of the closet centuries ago. Which is so stupid and she points this out in her, in her review as 1 of the movies many dated Inmanities. And in parenthesis, she writes, the writers still think what’s your sign is a good joke. Now, okay, let let me just point out that even in 1985, a lot of the humor in this movie was considered dated. That’s how Fair enough. Dated the movie is. But you’re right. It has a certain charm to it, and you can still laugh at it even if you’re groaning at the same time.

Craig:  Yeah. It it got you know, I as a gay man, I am not offended by that portrayal. You know, there’s It’s too

Todd:  stupid to be offensive, really. I mean, it’s just too dumb.

Craig:  Well, it is and it’s super over the Todd, but we gays are fans of the flare, you know? Like, there are gays, there are gays. There are gays

Todd:  Do go on.

Craig:  Out there.

Todd:  You know, like Tell me more about the gays, Craig.

Clip:  He

Craig:  like he likes trying on her fancy clothes. I get it. I mean, that’s not my kink, but, you know, whatever. Good for him. And he is who he is. He’s not ashamed of it, and he’s her friend. And the countess, this woman that we’re talking about is Lauren Hutton for Pete’s sake.

Todd:  Craig. Right?

Craig:  My Todd. Lauren Hutton is a superstar, you know, in her own right, and she looks fantastic in this movie, and, you know, I totally bought their fag and hag relationship. Like, it was it was cute. I thought it was cute. I wasn’t offended at all. Anyway

Todd:  Before we move on, I have to point out another, line from this woman’s review that said, Hutton, whose emotive range is second only to Ali MacGraw’s, is hardly an 18 year old’s dream come true. Her, quote, big lusciousmagombas

Craig:  Did you wanna dress her slowly? Like like, first, bearing her big lusciousmagombas?

Todd:  As they are affectionately called, are hardly Magoomba like.

Craig:  Okay. Fine. Fair enough. She doesn’t have a huge rack. That’s fine. But, I was talking to my partner last night and I’m like, she is smoking hot in this movie.

Todd:  Yeah. She really is.

Craig:  Like, I have no idea how old she was. I would guess forties, maybe? But she looks amazing. Like, her body is just banging. Yeah, you can see her age a little bit in her face, but not an 18 year old guy’s fantasy lies. Yeah. That’s a straight up lie. Like, any, any hot blooded American young man would be True. Trying I’m not trying to get too graphic here, but would would be excited by this woman’s body.  She’s a she’s just gorgeous.

Todd:  They’d wanna Yeah. Those big luscious magoombas. Those small small magoombas. Whatever. Yeah. No. And then of Karen Karen Coppins. Right? Isn’t this? And she wasn’t huge.  She had some parts in some movies just a very short span of time in the eighties. She did a bit And

Craig:  she did a lot of TV.

Todd:  Yeah. Quite a bit of TV. A lot of just 1 1 off parts on TV. Did a little bit on, Dallas for a little while.

Craig:  Not She was in true Beverly Hills.

Todd:  Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

Craig:  And and it was funny because I read that, when they screened this for test audiences, the test audiences liked her so much that they decided to really quick redesign the, posters, and the box art to include her in it. She initially wasn’t in that advertising stuff, but audiences liked her so much in this that they decided to put her in. And she is, she’s very good. She’s charming, she’s, she’s a little bit too sweet in some ways, like, gosh, I mean we’re getting ahead of ourselves, but basically her boyfriend played by Jim Frickin’ Carey,

Todd:  Jim Carey.

Craig:  In his first big movie role, basically cheats on her and she gets like mad, but, like, not super mad, and then she forgives him way too easily. So she’s she’s a little dewy eyed and naive, but, she’s cute. It’s a good ensemble. There’s just a lot going for it. It’s it’s a cute fun movie.

Todd:  Yeah. That’s true. It’s really cool to see the super freaking young Jim Carrey. I mean, who’s what? In his early twenties here?

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Oh, he looks like a baby.

Todd:  Playing a teenager and, and doing a pretty good job of it actually. I mean, he was quite good in this film, I thought.

Craig:  Yeah. Jim Carrey is not my favorite actor, but the thing that bothers me about Jim Carrey is when he’s so frantic. You know, like the whole Ace Ventura thing, like, it it’s just too much for me, like calm down, like take a Ritalin and and go sit in a corner or something. But when when he does more serious roles or more subdued roles, I think he actually is quite a good actor.

Todd:  He is. That mean The Truman Show. Fantastic.

Craig:  Yeah. The Truman great. Fantastic. And there’s a little bit of Jim Carey over the top stuff here, a little bit. But it’s not so much that it bothered me. He’s just kind of and maybe it has something to do with his age. You know, he’s supposed to be a teenage boy. Teenage boys are goofy and awkward and stupid, so it works here for me.  But, yeah, I mean, Todd, talk about time capsule. Gosh, you know, he’s a huge superstar and here he is, you know, in his first big role and Yeah. I I knew him when.

Todd:  My first introduction to Jim Carrey was in living color. He was he was a bit of a different guy by the time that came around, but not much older than this, quite honestly. Yeah. I didn’t get to I didn’t get to see him in once bitten until recently, but it was it was nice. It was fun to see this guy, and I was just maybe every time he was on the screen, I was just marveling at how fresh faced he was. It was just crazy. It the movie starts out with, just kind of establishing the fact that there’s this woman who lives in this mansion above the Hollywood Hills. And, that is the woman played by Lauren Hutton, and she is just referred to as countess.

Craig:  I just wanted to say that it opens up with that shot of the huge mansion and this score. I love the music in this movie throughout, but the just even the original score that plays when we’re introduced to this mansion and you see Sebastian, the gay butler, walking around being super gay. And it’s all set against this great score. And the music throughout is so good. But but, yes, you’re right. This is when we’re introduced to the countess.

Todd:  It’s good if you like eighties pop rock. I mean, that’s

Craig:  Thin. Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. That’s I mean, and I do.

Craig:  I do.

Todd:  So, I mean, again, that’s how this movie is such a time capsule. And there’s some there’s some songs that were clearly written for this film. You know, I expected Great White’s Once Bitten Twice Shy to be somewhere in here. But, no. It’s a totally different Once Bitten song that comes up.

Craig:  So And it’s fantastic. Yeah.

Todd:  It sure is.

Craig:  I love it.

Todd:  But, you know, he comes through and he’s he he pours, what looks like a bloody Mary, of course, is, you know, It’s it’s actually blood. And, comes upstairs and the countess is in her coffin. And 1 thing I also love about this again, it’s so eighties, but remember when we thought that people who lived in big mansions who were, like, in these modern homes, Everything was freaking white. Like Yeah. White floors, white ceiling, white walls. Todd was like, very stripped Todd. Uh-huh. Big I mean, it’s just so weird looking back at it.  Like, nobody would want their home like that. But that’s the kind of home that we that we spend a lot of time in, this countess’s mansion. And she lives in her coffin upstairs. And as soon as she opens her coffin, she starts talking about how she needs a virgin male’s blood before Halloween comes, basically. Oh, by the way, happy Halloween everybody. You know, Halloween’s coming up. This is a Halloween movie which is why we’re doing it.

Craig:  It’s very Halloween y and I like that about it. Yeah. But the other thing about okay. So you’re right. So she needs, virgin’s blood. But there are just so many great lines in this movie too. I I Sebastian, I think says, virgin blood isn’t easy to come by these days. And then she says, being a vampire in the 20th century is a nightmare.  And there are so many references to how, like, kids

Todd:  Kids these days.

Craig:  Or young men young men these days aren’t virgins. And she has to drink the blood of a virgin man 3 times before Halloween. And she has, like, this whole troop of vampires that, like, I don’t know, scout for her or whatever. Some of them come in and she talks to them, and 1 of them says,

Clip:  Cool. The closest we’ve come so far is an 11 year old. It’ll be disgusting.  Yeah. She’s so funny.

Todd:  Yeah. And then and then things like that are peppered with these groaners, like, after she’s complaining, he looks at her and goes Did we get up on the wrong side of the coffin this evening?

Craig:  It is a groaner, but coming from him and with that delivery, with that totally flamboyant delivery, it’s it’s so petty and it’s real life. Real okay. I’ll I’ll

Todd:  take your word for that, I guess. But I love how while she’s getting the report from these other vampires, how she’s totally in her make workout get up and on a bike, like, workout Yeah.

Craig:  There’s workout equipment everywhere.

Todd:  Such a thing in the eighties. Jane Fonda’s workout, this whole workout thing, headbands, knee highs. Like, every fad, everything you could possibly think of that was popular or faddish at 1 point in the eighties shows up in this movie at some point. It’s like in the perfect spot for all of that.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  I absolutely loved it. And so, anyway, so she’s got this thing going on. In the meantime, Jim Carey, whose character’s name is Amarq, is Mhmm. Trying to make out with his girlfriend, Robin, who is played by Karen Coppins, like we said before, in his ice cream truck.

Craig:  Mhmm. And

Todd:  they’re in they’re in the at first, I’m like, it’s like it’s like an oil field.

Craig:  I don’t know what it is. I guess so.

Todd:  There’s, like, an oil I

Craig:  mean, it’s obviously, like, the make out spot.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s the make out. Well, we don’t know that at first. He’s trying to make out with her. And she’s like, oh, I’m just not ready yet. It’s gotta be special. It’s gotta be right and all that. So we know where this is going.  But I thought this scene was so clever. Because after after he’s like, this is clearly not gonna happen, he he glances out the window and he sees this guy totally boning this chick next to him in a convertible with the Todd down. And then I notice again in the background the oil pump going and I’m like, oh, okay.

Clip:  Yeah.

Todd:  This is funny. And then he gets frustrated. He steps out of the car and looks up at the sky. And as he’s looking up at the sky, the camera pans out. Just completely pans out to the sky. He’s looking up like, why? And all of the cars surrounding this ice cream truck are all bouncing.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  And the oil thing is going.

Craig:  It’s That’s the raciest part of the movie. Like, I was actually kinda surprised by how racy it was. Yeah. The first guy that you talked about

Todd:  He’s got a bare ass.

Craig:  Yeah. And and whoever is underneath him is a lucky guy or gal because he’s like Going at him. Like, well, like, he’s like thrusting up and down, like, 2 feet in the air, like, woah.

Todd:  I like the person in the other car whose legs are just straight out the window.

Craig:  Yeah. Like

Todd:  straight out and up and spread. Like there’s nothing between those because all of those legs are completely out of the window. It’s such a stage scene, but it’s so funny. That I actually that was my favorite scene in the entire movie. Was that bit right there.

Craig:  Right. Oil

Todd:  pump going in the background. It’s so low brow. But, yeah. I actually I’m kinda surprised this movie I I don’t know. Like, it’s PG 13. I feel like if it were released Todd, it would be maybe more r with some of this stuff in.

Craig:  Maybe. Just I I think just that scene. Everything else is pretty tame.

Todd:  I don’t know. But toward the end when, you know, they’re strapping him down and spreading his legs and

Craig:  Well, yeah. But there’s no nudity. Like, that’s the other thing. Like, nothing nothing really happens that would warrant an r. They there’s 1 f bomb dropped which is allowed for a PG 13 so long as it’s only 1. It’s this, you know, blatant sexual innuendo that’s going on here that’s the only thing that I would think would even give anybody pause. Other than that, it’s very innocent. Nobody dies in the whole movie

Todd:  Oh, that’s true.

Craig:  Including the vampires. Nobody gets killed. There’s very little blood, and the blood that is there is really just more suggestive than anything. It doesn’t even really look like real blood. It’s really very tame, I would say. But yes, this scene, pretty racy. But then we jump to okay. So Mark, the next day, is talking to his 2 friends, Jamie and Russ, who work at like a burger stand.  And he’s talking about his frustrations or whatever. And Jamie and Russ are like the cutest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. They are so cute. Like they’re just kind of these semi dorky, but also at the same time adorable guys. They’re the way that we envisioned kind of teenage nerds at the time. Not the super stereotypical like suspenders and pocket protectors and horn rimmed glasses, but I don’t know. You know, these skinny, big eyed guys. Russ is, a redhead and Jamie is a brunette.  That’s the only distinguishing thing about them. But I think Jamie says there’s too much pressure about getting laid. It’s like taking a driver’s test for manhood. Like, it’s so funny. And they decide in terribly flawed logic, Mark

Todd:  says Sometimes I think I should just go out, find some strange woman, and get laid, and I could go back to Robin without all this pressure between us.

Craig:  And they’re like, yeah, okay. So they decide to go into Hollywood. I guess they live in the suburbs, but they’re gonna go into Hollywood to try to get laid. And so they do. And this drive, there’s a whole montage of them driving into Hollywood set against the title track, Once Bitten, which again is fantastic. But it is hilarious. Like, there’s a lady shooting a music video, like, rolling around on a car. There’s, like, punk rockers, there’s a fancy dressed lady walking a lion on a leash.  It’s the most ridiculous, stereotypical view of Hollywood. And just these 3 big eyed losers in their ice cream truck driving around looking around. And it oh, Todd. It is so funny.

Todd:  And and there’s a star filter on the camera so that every light that shows up has, like, a sparkle on it as it’s going through. It oh, it’s so eighties. It’s just wonderful. And then they end up at this club, which I would love to go to. It’s the phone a date club. Like, seriously, I think this place is awesome. You go in and you sit at a table, and every table is numbered. And it has a phone on it.  And it’s got once again, everything is eighties. It’s got 1 of those phones that are shaped like

Craig:  lips. Yeah.

Todd:  That’s so great. And you’re supposed to look over at a table, and you could dial them up, and you could talk to them, and then, you know, go over and and chat with them more if they invite you over. What a great freaking concept. I love it.

Craig:  It is pretty hilarious.

Todd:  Yeah. I don’t know. I I kinda wanna I really hope a place like this really existed because, like I said, I would have been there every night. This appeals to Todd in so many ways. It’s just the way I roll. So anyway, enough about me. So they sit down at the table and they’re scoping out chicks. And at the same time, the vampire lackeys, have noticed this ice cream truck going through.  And of course, yeah, they realized all these guys have to be complete virgins. And so, they tracked them to the club and he ends up, Jim Carrey’s character, Mark, ends up meeting up with the countess at the bar. And there’s a bar fight and a bunch of jokes and all that. But they sneak out the back, and he ends up at her house. And at her house, she does a whole seduction routine. And he does the whole typical eighties, virgin thing where it’s like, suddenly he’s there, and he doesn’t even know why he’s there. He wanted it so bad. I love the bit where she leaves for a moment to get something, and he’s looking at this giant portrait on the wall where she’s completely naked.  And he starts touching the breast on the portrait. What is that?

Craig:  What is that? And she catches him doing it. It’s so funny.

Todd:  Oh, Todd.

Craig:  But that yeah. Like and then she seduces him. And listen, I understand that he’s a kid, but like this seduction scene, like she is, I swear to God, so hot. And she’s kissing him a little bit, and then she starts, her thing is she bites the buttons off of his shirt. She’ll bite off a button and then spit it like across the room. And then she does that going all the way down and she goes all the way down, like she goes out of Craig. And you see her messing with his belt and you hear the zipper going down and you see him standing up enough that his pants can come down. But he’s so nervous and he’s just like nervously chattering and, you know, meanwhile, we, the audience are like, oh my Todd, what is going on down there? And listen, not to get too personal, but Oh.  I remember the first time something like that happened. You are super excited, but, like, it’s the first time and you’re, like, hello?

Todd:  What am I supposed to do?

Clip:  Am I supposed to keep talking to you?

Craig:  What’s going on? I

Todd:  still has these questions, Craig. I I’m not even sure what the etiquette is on this. I’ve been married for almost 20 years.

Craig:  Oh, man. But it’s it’s adorable. And then, so, like, she’s down there. You don’t know what’s going on. But then, he just goes, and and then it cuts away.

Todd:  To a dream sequence. Right? Is that his dream sequence?

Craig:  I think the dream sequence is yeah.

Todd:  Oh, okay. I can’t wait to get to it.

Craig:  I Sebastian goes to the vampire dorms because there’s there’s a big room full of, like, bunch of different coffins that are, like, reflective of the time period that these vampires were turned or whatever. And it’s actually very cute. And he tells them all to go to bed, and then as he’s walking out and turns off the light, they’re all, like, good day, Sebastian. Good day, Sebastian.

Todd:  My biggest It’s adorable. My biggest disappointment with this movie is we didn’t get to spend more time with these other vampires. They really had a nice set up there with these different vampires from these different eras. And even in that 2 minute scene, you could tell they all had these very distinct personalities. And then we really don’t see them much again.

Craig:  No. I mean, they’re basically just henchmen. Yeah. They chase people.

Todd:  Well, they’re the previous victims of hers, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig:  It made me wonder why there were girl ones. Like, does she sometimes is she sometimes into girls? I

Todd:  don’t know. Maybe.

Craig:  But some of them are girls. I don’t know. But anyway, she she talks to Sebastian and he’s like, did you get the transfusion? And she says, of course, I did. And he’s, like, are you sure he’s a virgin? And she says, I haven’t had anything this pure since the Vienna Boys Choir hit town. I just love these 1 liners. They just keep coming and it kills me. Oh, I thought they were so funny.

Todd:  Funny funny but bad. Come on. It’s how many Vienna Boys choir jokes can we see in a movie?

Craig:  Just 1 and this 1, but it made me laugh.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  But then, she and Sebastian walked back into the living room, and Mark is all curled up on the couch with his pants down around his legs. And she wakes him up, and he doesn’t remember anything that happened. And he’s like, well, did we have a good time? And she’s like, oh, yeah or whatever. Like, he thinks they had sex. As it turns out, they didn’t because they can’t because he has to be a virgin.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  That he thinks that they did. And when he goes to leave, she says, I’ll see you again soon. Right? And and he confesses that he has a girlfriend, and she’s like, oh, that’s fine. I’m

Todd:  Yeah. I’ve been the other woman many times. What a great line.

Clip:  And so he gives them

Craig:  each an ice cream bar, and then he leaves, and they throw them over their shoulders.

Todd:  He’s such a dork.

Craig:  He’s very funny.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s great. He’s endearing in that way. Right? So And then Yeah.

Craig:  He’s cute. He’s cute in this movie. He’s very cute.

Todd:  And then it just kinda becomes a lot of, you know, he’s bragging to his buddies about it. And then the his girlfriend overhears, and they have a whole conversation. And and she’s way too forgiving of this. And I love I love her what is her line? It’s, something and I’m gonna put the clip They

Craig:  all saw you bite her butt they all saw her bite your buttons. She’s because he’s trying to tell the story and he’s like, I don’t know. There was this it was the countess, and then she had this chauffeur, but he was also the butler. And she’s like, so they all saw her bite your buttons? Like, she’s very upset about this biting the buttons thing.

Clip:  I can’t believe you’re willing to throw away our relationship on a 1 night stand with a chauffeur and a butler and a slut who eats buttons.

Craig:  But she is far too forgiving. I mean, that’s I think that Ted’s kind of, you know, it’s a light hearted comedy, so we don’t need, you know, serious drama. But they both handle this so lightheartedly. He’s like, well, I’m a teenage guy. That’s what we do. You know, we do stupid things. And then you get mad, but you forgive me. And and and she is mad, but, like, not mad enough.

Todd:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  And and she’s like, I really do wanna do it. I just wanna make sure it’s the right time. It’s it’s silly.

Todd:  Manding.

Craig:  So they break up for a second, and then there’s, you know, there’s goofy stuff where, like, he’s, I guess, kind of changing, like, he’s wearing sunglasses, and there’s a gag where he’s, like, dissecting a frog in a class, and it turns out he’s not even in that class, and he’s sleeping in the trunk at the foot of his bed, and his parents are concerned.

Todd:  He’s eating raw meat, and he’s, like, drinking a cup of blood that his mother poured off of the raw meat before she cooked it, you know, by mistake. And the parents are looking at it agape. I mean, it’s, it’s it’s really stupid. But it’s it’s fun, I guess.

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s a light teen comedy. Mhmm. And and then there are these dream sequences, like,

Todd:  the first there are

Craig:  2 of them. In the first 1 0, and the dream sequences are so low budget, and I I feel like they did it on purpose. Like, I feel like they made the dream sequences super low budget on purpose. But, like, it’s just like a fog machine and, like, a blank set. And then the first 1, like, Sebastian is playing the accordion, and I’m pretty sure he was on roller skates because he just keeps, like, gliding back and forth behind them. And, you know, like, she plays footsie with them, and then they kiss, but then he sees blood running down her chin after they kiss, and he wakes up and he’s freaked out. And then that’s all that happens before he and Robin make up. Like, they’re like, oh, okay.  Yeah. We’re we’re fine.

Todd:  There’s a nice light hearted bit where he visits her at work.

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s a good 1.

Todd:  Yeah. I love that bit. Again, total eighties shopping mall, like, clothing store that she works in. Oh, my gosh. And, he goes in and, goofs around. And he’s gonna try on some pants, but they’re black. And she’s like, you’re black. He’s like, yeah.  I’ll go in. And when he goes into the dressing room, the countess is in there and she appears to him. And so there’s all this there’s this funny gag where he’s talking to her, but then his girlfriend thinks he’s talking to her and he’s telling her to get away. And she’s like, fine. I will get away and all this stuff. And, finally, she bites him again, I think in the dressing room. Right? And he falls down and she picks him up. Oh, Todd.  Are you okay? Should we take you to the hospital? Has this ever happened before? And, and walks out. It’s goofy.

Craig:  In talking about it, we can’t do that scene justice. No. I thought that scene was hilarious. Hilarious. And it was so funny with the timing and the fact that, you know, the countess is in the dressing room and Robin is outside, and he’s trying to get the countess to shut up, and Robin thinks he’s talking to her, and oh, Todd. It’s so funny. And, like, the countess is obviously so irritated with Robin, but she does get her bite and then she walks out and she’s talking to Sebastian, and, he asks how it went and she says something about Robin, and she says she’s young, she’s sweet, and she’s pissing me off. And then my favorite thing is, like, the countess’s gag is every time she exits a room, she throws somebody to the ground.

Todd:  She pushes someone over.

Craig:  Just on her way out, she just shoves somebody violently to the ground.

Todd:  It’s always some random bystander. Yeah. Nobody important. And this all leads up to the, the pre Halloween hop. Mind you. Once again, dated for even 1985 Todd call a dance at your school a hop. But anyway, it’s the pre Halloween hop. And they all go and the gag here is that he’s now pretty pale and he’s wearing sunglasses and he’s slick and black and

Clip:  black and black and his

Todd:  hair and it’s black and everything. And everybody’s saying that he’s dressed up in a as a vampire. And he’s like, I’m not even wearing a costume. I didn’t have time for it. And then who else shows up at the dance, but, the countess. And right there on the dance floor, she does the whole tap on the shoulder, butt in. And then we get the crazy awesome dance off sequence.

Craig:  It is amazing. It’s really good. I was dying laughing out loud. Now, like, that is the thing that I remember most about this movie was that there’s this dance number. This choreographed, fully choreographed dance number.

Todd:  It’s good.

Craig:  It’s not bad at all. And surprisingly enough, Jim Carrey is not a bad dancer. No. It’s great. Like, it starts out, like you said, with the countess, like, kind of tapping Robin’s shoulder and getting her out of the way or whatever. And then she’s dancing with him, and she’s got him, like, in her thrall or whatever. And so they dance, but then Robin comes in. And the name of the song is Hands Off.

Clip:  Yeah.

Craig:  It’s a great song. Play it, please. Like, it’s this whole back and forth thing where the 2 women are pulling him back and forth. And when either 1 of them is trying to pull him to them, like, he’s going with both of them, whoever’s pulling at him at the time. Eventually, like, he gets kind of thrown out of the way and the women have kind of like a cat fight dance and, then we have them dance together. It is, and it’s the whole song, the full length of this hands off song, they are doing this choreographed dance. And, oh, it’s fantastic. It’s so good.

Todd:  Yeah. Actually, I have to I have to backtrack what I said earlier about the make out point. I think this was my favorite scene in the movie for sure. It was a good good good dance sequence. As silly as it was, it was really really well done. And, that ends up, you know, it’s the battle for Mark. Robin wins. So it that count just goes off in a And

Craig:  she she tears her clothes off. Yeah. Like she’s dressed in this totally wholesome, like, they were supposed to be Jack and Jill, but he didn’t get his costume. So she’s just Jill alone and like this totally, you know, innocent sweet thing. But in the course of the dance she rips her clothes off and she’s got a skimpy dance leotard on underneath a lacy under skirt or something. It’s Yeah. It is convenient, and it’s it’s great. And then the countess stomps away and throws somebody else to the ground on her way out.  And and she’s mad. Because it’s almost Halloween, and she hasn’t gotten her 3rd drink yet. She has to have the the third 1.

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s apparently gotta be down there by his thigh, which we’re gonna learn about in a second because Research. Yeah. Research time. Mark confides in his girlfriend that he thinks something’s wrong, and he actually says, I think I’ve been bitten by a vampire. And she says, are you crazy? And there’s some moments where his reflection doesn’t appear in the mirror, but then it does again. Anyway, she goes to the local bookseller and just like those research scenes in every movie we’ve seen this, when you ask him about a very specific topic like vampirism and suddenly the guy is the world’s biggest expert on vampires. And he has the worst accent.  What is it? Is it like Oh, yeah. I have no idea. Indian or something?

Craig:  I don’t know.

Todd:  This white guy is doing like an Indian accent. I have no idea. Anyway, what he tells her and he pulls a book off the shelf is, this whole deal about, a vampire female. She’s like, could there be female vampires? And he’s like, oh, yes, there could be. And then he explains that they

Clip:  There there can even be cat and dog vampires.

Craig:  My favorite thing that he says though, she’s like, well, could a would a female vampire could she bite a young man?

Clip:  Like 18?  Oh, I seriously doubt it. You see, the female vampire needs the blood of a virgin, and an 18 year old boy would hardly be a virgin now, would he?

Craig:  Greg raises his hand. Oh, I just thought that was such a funny line.

Todd:  That’s hilarious.

Craig:  Go ahead.

Todd:  No. He pulls a book off the shelf and it has a diagram in there that shows that where she would bite him would be in the in the inner thigh, right near the crotch. Because that would be where a virgin male’s blood is is most concentrated or something, which is pretty funny also. And and so, she goes to his friends and says, can you check for me and see if he has these bite marks on his inner thigh? And they’re like, okay.

Craig:  No. At first, they’re hesitant, but she’s like, I thought he was your friend. If you really cared about him, you would do this. I liked that because it is rooted in their friendship that they agree to do this. And so yeah, after gym or whatever they all go to the showers. And everybody is butt ass naked in this scene. But they do interesting things with the, gosh, I don’t even know how to describe it, but like they shoot from behind stuff so that you, so that all of the good parts are covered up, but just the good parts. You can tell that they’re totally nude.  And it’s just hilarious. It’s so slapstick and funny. Like, they’re kind of trying to be discreet, but they’re totally not discreet trying to check him out.

Todd:  Dropping the soap and bending over to pick it up, but near his legs and all this stuff.

Craig:  Yeah. And and eventually, Russ just grabs him from behind and holds him and kinda picks him up and says, look Jamie, look. And of course, Jamie, who’s the doofiest 1, has all soap in his eyes and can’t see anything, but he still drops down between his legs anyway. And that’s where you get the, you know, the the other guys

Clip:  Back to the shower. Back to the shower. Back to the shower. Back to the shower. Back to the shower. Back to the shower. Back to the shower.

Craig:  And all of the other guys go running out. And, you know, it should be offensive, I guess, I don’t know. You know, I’m sure that I have friends that would find this offensive. I didn’t, I just thought it was hilarious. I thought it was innocent and silly and it was the 80s and it was different. I’m not saying it was better and I’m not saying I wanna go back to that time, but it was a different time and it was really funny. And then the next part is those 2 guys back in their burger joint, and Jamie is chopping onions, like, Craig, like,

Clip:  it’s the worst thing that could have ever happened to us. Everybody thinks we’re homeless.

Todd:  That’s right. And then there’s a little bit of self doubt there Todd because as Jim Carrey comes in, he basically says to them, You know guys, if you wanted to know, you just could’ve asked. And then he looks

Clip:  And JB goes, Oh my Todd.  She told us to look!  I knew it. I knew it. We enjoyed it. Kimmy, would you shut up to show? No. No. That’s it. We’re homos. We’re rump rangers.  No.

Craig:  It’s so stupid, though.

Todd:  It’s so funny. Oh, god.

Craig:  It is oh, it’s totally stupid, but really funny. But while they’re while they’re there talking about that, Mark sees Robin get into the countess’s limo with, Sebastian, and she gets driven away. And so they all the 3 boys all head off, to the mansion, which really leads to the final showdown.

Todd:  Yeah. They break into the mansion, and they go exploring trying to find her. They find her tied up to a chair. They release her from the chair and Tied

Craig:  up with her legs crossed?

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Wasn’t that so funny? Didn’t you think that was hilarious?

Todd:  I didn’t quite catch that part.

Craig:  They, like, they like, her legs are crossed, you know, like, knee over knee, and that’s how they Todd her up.

Todd:  I know. That was really funny. Anyway I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. You’re right. And then they and then they they they catch them all. And, this is the final scene, is she’s going to get her 3rd drink in and they’re gonna make a big ritual out of it.  Now, all the other vampires are in tuxedos and they’re in this fancy room and they’re surrounded by candles and torches and they have this dastardly looking chair.

Craig:  Stirrup.

Todd:  Stirrup, basically, that, she straps him down to to spread his legs so that she can yank his pants down and start to bite. And at that moment, Robin breaks free and runs forward and puts a halt to it and picks up, well, at first, she’s holding out a Craig. And they’re, like, sorry. This doesn’t work in real life. It’s only in the movies.

Craig:  I’m an atheist.

Todd:  But then they 1 of them picks up a torch, and they they this little fire on the end of this torch is enough to, to fend these vampires off enough for them to escape. And I’m thinking, man, if this little bit, which amounts to, like, a large candle on the end of a stick, is enough to get these, vampires freaking out, Why did they surround their entire room with these things during

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  How did they even light those things, really?

Craig:  There are little funny things here that I totally didn’t even understand when I was a kid. Like, Russ pokes the 1 of those torches at Sebastian and says, how would you like me to set your pubic hair on fire or something like that? And Sebastian goes, oh, rough trade. I don’t know if you know what that means, but our gay friends will. Alright. That’s

Todd:  a little inside joke for some of our listeners. No. Right.

Craig:  And and I love it when they start to run away. Like, Mark is kind of in, the countess’s thrall. Like, she kind of has him, you know, hypnotized or whatever. But Robin gets him away and she says

Clip:  Mark doesn’t want you because you’re mean and evil. He wants me because I’m nice and sweet and pure.  So fuck off.

Todd:  It’s good. It’s good.

Clip:  It’s so funny.

Todd:  It’s also stupid. Come on, Craig. This is all really dumb.

Craig:  Well, fine. I don’t care. I don’t care if it is dumb. I was cracking up. I thought it was hilarious.

Todd:  I just gotta put that

Craig:  I mean, think about all those other eighties movies that we watched. They’re all sweet. No. The non horror you know, like 16 candles and

Todd:  It was bad too. Yeah.

Craig:  You know, the the they were the humor was goofy and silly, but it doesn’t make it not funny. It was still hilarious. There’s the chase scene all around the mansion with the different vampires jumping out and hissing at them and scaring them and

Todd:  It gets very thriller here because the vampires are coming at the very improbably, like, by breaking through,

Clip:  like, the

Todd:  brick walls and coming up through concrete floors and Todd. Right.

Clip:  Right.

Todd:  Right. Yeah. But it’s it’s it’s interesting.

Craig:  Russ and Jamie finally get lucky with a couple of the female vampires.

Todd:  What are they thinking?

Craig:  They’re they’re probably not very much. There’s not probably not a lot of blood going to their brain at that moment. But they so it it’s a long chase scene. It I I didn’t find I mean, it goes on for a long time. I didn’t find it boring, but it goes on for quite a long time. And it ends up back in the vampire dorm. The count’s like, we’ve been all around. Where could they be? And then they noticed that the coffin, the deluxe coffin that was meant for Mark once he had been changed is rocking.  And she opens it up and Robin sits up and goes, you’re too late. And she goes, you couldn’t have. You you’ve been in there for less than a minute. And then Mark pops up smoking a cigarette, and the account just goes, you could’ve, but you didn’t have time to enjoy it. So funny. And then the clock strikes midnight, and the count just trans forms and, she with bad, you know, lighting special effects, but whatever. Yeah. And, she she turns into, like, an old dowager woman who seems, you know, kinda confused and

Clip:  I’ll never find another virgin. Never.

Todd:  And he’s like, that’s okay. There are plenty of places like Kansas and Iowa. They really are in the wrong part of the country for this for sure.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  That’s the joke. And,

Craig:  everybody all the other vampires leave and Mark’s like, you know, she probably has a point. It’d probably be better if we could go slower. And so they just laid back down in the coffin and closed the lid and that’s the end of the movie.

Todd:  Oh boy.

Craig:  I really Todd, I honest to God expected to think that it was really stupid. I remembered liking it a lot when I was a kid, but I thought, I know, you know, even thinking back as much as I liked it, I know it’s dumb. And it is dumb, but I still, I wasn’t bored for a second. I was laughing out loud at certain points. It’s in absolutely no way scary in any way. It’s it’s a comedy, but but it’s funny. And you and I love eighties movies. And this is just about as eighties as you can possibly get.  There’s nothing 80s. I I had a blast. I had a blast watching it. I thought it was a lot of fun. And it was really Halloween y. It, you know, it it felt like a real Halloween movie, and I loved that.

Todd:  Yeah. It was good. It was a real Halloween movie. You and I love eighties stuff, and this is definitely the most eighties movie we’ve ever seen. I don’t know how you’re gonna get more eighties than this 1, quite honestly. Got an all star cast, competently made, not competently written in my opinion. I mean, I’m gonna have to, you know, just I I understand. It’s just not my cup of tea.  This kinda humor is too goofball, too sophomoric, and too dated for me to really do anything more than groan at. But I can appreciate that, you know, maybe at the time or, you know, 10 years before this came out, people would have really thought this stuff was was laugh out loud funny. Or apparently, Craig feels that this is laugh out loud funny.

Craig:  Oh, god. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sophomore comedy, bring it.

Todd:  Okay.

Craig:  I’m ready. Yeah. You know, reading the trivia about it, they really, really wanted Michael J Fox for the role of Mark. But at the time, the producers didn’t feel that Michael J Fox could pull off a feature linked film. Joke’s on them. And the part of the countess was written for Cassandra Peterson, Elvira.

Todd:  Yeah. Well, that would’ve been amazing.

Craig:  I love her so much that it would have been a completely different movie. That’s true. And maybe that’s okay. You know, maybe it would have been even better. I don’t know, because she’s hilarious. But I liked Lauren Hutton in the movie. They also offered it to Morgan Fairchild and Kathleen Turner before they offered it to Lauren Hutton. But I like the way that the casting turned out and, you know, it, I guess, in some way, kick started Jim Carrey’s career to some degree.

Todd:  Yeah. For sure. He’s good in this. He’s got a solid performance.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. It’s certainly not gonna be for everybody. And and fans of the show, if you are hardcore horror fans, this is not the movie that you’re looking for. No. This is a comedy. Yeah. And it’s a silly goofball comedy.  But if you’re into that, I think it’s fun and it’s worth checking out.

Todd:  Well, we had to do it because it’s Halloween. And also, Neil requested it and Craig really, really wanted to do it. So thank you so much, Neil, for your request, and happy soon to be Halloween, everybody. And we thank you so much for the request you’ve been sending our way and suggestions for Halloween movies. We’re creating a list so that next Halloween, we’ll be able to put some of your requests on there. And maybe some of them we’ll get to a little sooner. We’ll see.

Clip:  Thank you

Todd:  for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. Look us up online, 2 guys and a chainsaw, also at 2 guys dot redfortynedot com. Until next time. I’m Todd

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Accomplished horror director Adam Wingard’s pic is kind of a horror movie, but more of a psychological thriller/action pic that happens to be dripping with Halloween atmosphere. Perfect for the season, and also a “perfectly serviceable film” by our standards, with a “smooookin’ hot” guy leading the action.

Episode 191, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  Here we are in the middle of October. It’s Halloween time coming up, and so Craig and I are looking for Halloween movies to do. As we’ve mentioned before, it gets to slim pickings a little bit because we’ve been doing this so long, and we gotta do at least 4 every year. Right?

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And this time around, we found a movie that although it’s not a Halloween movie, it’s set during Halloween. And so during a lot of scenes, of this film, even though they really don’t explicitly reference Halloween too much except toward the end. You do get some pumpkins in there, you get some decor here and there, references to the Halloween dance coming up and stuff like that. So hey, well, we we take what we can get. Right?

Craig:  Oh, come on. There’s a huge Halloween aesthetic here. I mean, there’s pumpkins everywhere. They carved jack o’-lanterns.

Todd:  That’s what I’m saying. Yeah. But it’s not like, you know, they go out trick or treating. It’s not like it’s about people wearing masks and doing Halloween stuff. I’m doing

Craig:  it alright. Well,

Todd:  you know what I mean. Come on.

Craig:  Yeah. It it’s it’s definitely seasonal though. And and that’s that’s good enough for me.

Todd:  Okay. Okay. Well, the movie is The Guest, from 2014, by Adam Wyndard. He’s pretty famous. Actually, the writer director of this film are also pretty famous for doing Your Next

Clip:  Uh-huh.

Todd:  Which, came a little bit before this. And, is a film that I think what we’ve done on the podcast Yeah. And, we’ve enjoyed quite a bit. This whole I don’t know. This whole, like, school, I guess, of people. Adam Windgard, Ty West. These folks are have been doing some pretty interesting things with horror, I think in the last, I don’t know, 10 years or so. And I got the the same vibes, you know, the same flavor, the same vibes from this movie that I get from his other movies.  And III can’t quite pinpoint what it is. I don’t know if it’s a style or if it’s a sort kind of cinematography or if just a a type of writing, but it’s growing on me. It really is. I think if you listen to some of the earlier things we’ve said about these filmmakers, I’ve been a little more about them. I was even a little about your next. But this movie, 1 could say, is even more straightforward and more simple and even I don’t know. It’s not that original really. It’s No.  It’s it’s like the hand that rocks the cradle or something like that. The the

Craig:  Single white female, you know, like, you know, this where where you’ve got a person who at first seems, you know, very normal, but then there are clear signs that they’ve got a screw loose and it’s dangerous. It’s a trope that you see fairly often, I would say really. Yeah. It’s but that’s, I mean, that’s alright. As long as it’s done reasonably well, it can still be exciting. I would say Todd me, this movie feels like more of a thriller than a horror movie.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  I’m cool with calling it horror. That’s fine. But it does seem more like a thriller to me. On IMDB, they characterize it as like a thriller comedy. I didn’t see did I totally miss some comedy that was going on here?

Clip:  Because I didn’t think it was funny.

Todd:  There are little snippets of comedy here and there, like black comedy, I think. Especially toward the end, especially maybe at the very end. Right? But you’re right. It’s not really funny. The subject matter isn’t all that funny either. Right? It this guy just kinda totally takes over these people’s lives, invades their home in a way, gets into the trust circle of this family through their son, Caleb, who has died. We we never meet Caleb. This is after, you know, the beginning of this movie, but or before the beginning of this movie.  But their son, Caleb, apparently, is a is a war veteran. And this guy shows up. His name is David. He shows up at the house.

Clip:  My name is David, miss Peterson. I, I knew your son, Caleb. And we trained together and served together and, well, we came to be good friends.  Oh, would you would you like to come inside?  Thank you, ma’am.

Todd:  And he tasked me with coming and telling you guys that he loves you all. And that’s Mhmm. What I’m here for. I’m just fulfilling a dying man’s wish, which, touches the mother. Some of the rest of the family thinks it’s a little weird, but they’re all just kind of uncomfortable about it because of the fact that here they’ve been trying to repair their wounds, I think, from this kid’s death. And, here’s this guy tearing them open a little bit just by his very presence. Again, it’s just like any of these movies. It it even follows the predictable path, right, of, what you know from the beginning that this is gonna be and and and I and I mean, to their credit, the filmmakers know you know from the beginning.  They’re not really trying to hide any of this. I think within the first 5 minutes, they’re making you suspicious of this guy.

Craig:  Oh, yeah.

Todd:  You know what kind of movie you’re in for. It’s called The Guest. And it really goes through the paces, I think. Just almost paint my numbers. I mean, that sounds disparaging to say, but Todd be honest, the movie kept my interest and I found it not a 100% predictable. I I knew kind of when Todd direction it was going, but I didn’t quite know how it was gonna get there. And so I found that part a bit entertaining. And then, of course, you always wanna know where it’s gonna end up.  And so all those things together, I have to say, I enjoyed it. But I never heard of it before. How about you, Corinne?

Craig:  No. I no. I had never heard of it either. And and it came out in 2014 and it opened in theaters and it did reasonably well. And I I don’t know how I missed it entirely, but I did. And I don’t know. I thought it was okay. I didn’t think it was great.  I actually thought Your Next was far more clever.

Todd:  Yeah. Oh, for sure.

Craig:  And and enjoyable.

Todd:  But a wholly different kind of movie.

Craig:  Yeah. Different. The thing that I’ll give it credit for is that it doesn’t, at least initially, seem entirely unrealistic. You know, this guy shows up. They’re mourning the loss of their son and brother. The mother seems to be the 1 who’s having the most difficulty processing it, which is believable. I totally get that. He’s a connection that can be made to the son and brother that they lost.  And so, the mom, who is the 1 who has been struggling with the most, it doesn’t take long. I mean, it it seems like she’s a little bit reticent for a couple of minutes, but as soon as she starts talking to this guy, he draws her in. And he tells her why he’s there, which, you know, she has to excuse herself to cry for a little bit. And then she comes back. There’s a a photograph on their mantle of Caleb with his, regiment. And David points and says, hey, look, there’s me. And it is him. So, you know, you believe him.  Yeah. I mean, you believe that he knew their son and and was connected to him. And so, it makes sense to me that she would then embrace that. And and basically, what happens is she invites him to stay. And and he doesn’t impose himself, you know. He doesn’t ask to stay. He he basically says, you know, I I came here to tell you what he wanted me to tell you, and you know, now I’ll go. But she says, oh, no, no.  Please stay. You’re welcome to stay with us. And he basically says, Yeah, I’ll stay for a night or whatever. And then the rest of the family, especially the father and the daughter, there’s, there are 2 kids. There’s a daughter and a son. They’re both teenage. Well, no, excuse me. The daughter’s actually in her early twenties.  She’s 20, I think. She’s turning 21 in, like, a week or something. And then the the son is still in high school. The daughter and the dad are initially more skeptical, but eventually they get on board Todd. You know, the dad drinks. Yeah. Arguably a little bit too much. Mhmm.  You know, after he gets a few drinks in him and he convinces David to have a drink with him, they kinda talk and and David charms his way in. The daughter is skeptical at first too, but eventually, she kinda comes around. And I think that it’s believable because this actor who plays David, his name is Dan Stevens, and not that it would necessarily matter so much to the dad, but he’s smoking hot. Yeah.

Todd:  He is a charming dude.

Craig:  He is, and he’s super, super charming. And he has these beautiful blue eyes, and so I could see how 1 could easily be taken by him. And he’s so not imposing, you know. Yeah. The the dad asks him, you know, what’s what’s your plan after this? He’s like, oh, well, I thought I’d probably leave tomorrow and hop on a bus and go down to Florida and look for work or whatever. And the dad virtually insists that he stays longer until he gets on his feet or figures out what he wants to do or whatever. And so, it’s just kind of a perfect setup. If if this guy is meaning to infiltrate this family, I mean, he nails it, you know? Yeah.

Todd:  Well, and it’s interesting because even by the end of the day, I’m not sure he was. It’s and I guess we’ll talk about it when we get there, but even his motivations for really going to this family and doing this, I’m I’m not entirely clear.

Craig:  That’s the biggest problem that I have with this movie is that it’s not clear. It’s not clear really why he’s there, why he’s doing what he’s supposed to be doing. He, you know, supposedly has this kind of this history in the military and and, you know, eventually the daughter gets kinda suspicious and starts to investigate, and it becomes clear that he’s a dangerous person, and he was involved in some kind of, you know, highly confidential program that the military is now trying to cover up and but I never really understood who he was or what he was or what his purpose was. And I read that in the initial cut, it was like 20 minutes longer and most of what they cut was the explanation for who he was. I guess the, test audience thought that that stuff was either confusing or boring and they didn’t like it and the filmmakers were actually kind of glad because that wasn’t their favorite part of the movie anyway, so they cut it all out. But it left me with a lot of questions at the end of the day.

Todd:  Yeah. And, like, in this scene with with the dad, you get this almost they drop kind of a tantalizing little tidbit of information here. Because, the dad is clearly like an alcoholic. At least, he drinks a ton. And, he really opens up to him because, he’s they’ve had, like, 4 or 5 beers together. And the dad stands up and he walks away and he’s, like, I’m gonna we need to grab a couple more. Are are you good? And he’s, like, yeah. I’ll have a couple more.  And then the dad makes a comment. He says, wow. You can really put away your alcohol.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  And David just kinda nods and he said, aren’t you tired? And he says, no. I don’t get much sleep. Which is kind of a sinister thing. You’re thinking, okay. Something’s off about this guy. Like, is he a human? You know? Why is he completely unfazed by this alcohol? Why did he say he doesn’t really need sleep? And then there are a couple things a little later on that hint to the fact that maybe there’s something a little supernatural about him or at least superhuman. Right. And then even by the end, of course, and we’ll get there too.  All of that dropped and said, it still doesn’t explain everything, like, even if you know his background and I went on IMDB and I read I I think maybe Wikipedia or IMDB or some place where it just told you basically what the things were that they left out, some of the details about his background, that he was a super soldier type thing. He got injured, in some accident and had some spinal injury. And so the military brought him in for this kind of top secret program that basically made him unable to feel pain and gave him a whole new spine and an almost like, superhuman powers in a way.

Craig:  Right. But then it also made him incapable of empathy. Mhmm. And yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. And So and later the guy even says, because we bring in the military and we’re jumping all over the place here. But, you know, later there’s a old guy at this agency. It’s not necessarily military rights, probably some corporation who nevertheless says, you know, this guy’s been programmed to neutralize any you know, it’s kind of like a robocop. Do whatever it takes to protect the secret of who he is and where he’s from and and the company and all that stuff. Okay. All of that said, there’s still nothing in there that explains why except for his connection with Caleb, he visited this family, sort of infiltrates his family and starts helping them out to these sinister ends. Right? It it still doesn’t explain any of that, the motivation.

Craig:  Yeah. And I I don’t know. It’s it’s still entertaining to watch and it’s still creepy to watch. But things I I have to say too that, you know, things get really kinda creepy really weird really quickly. Like, they embrace this guy so much that, like, the second day he’s there, they send him to pick up their kid from school. Like, that’s kind of weird.

Clip:  That is weird.

Craig:  Yeah. The younger kid, he’s kind of, I don’t know, a nerdy, frumpy kind of kid. And he’s getting bullied at school. And David notices that he’s got like a black eye. And and so when he picks him up, he says, I want you to show me who hit you. And the kid’s like, well, it doesn’t matter. And he’s like, well, I’m not gonna do anything. I just I just wanna know.  And so he shows them. But then David follows these kids out of the parking lot and follows them down the highway. And the the kid, I don’t even remember, his name was Luke, I think. Yeah. Luke, the son, is like, what are you doing? He’s like, oh, I’m just seeing where they’re going. He says, they’re they’re turning into this bar. Luke’s like, yeah, this bar will serve football players. David says, well, I could use a drink.  You want 1? And Luke’s like, no. He’s like 16 or something. But Dave’s, alright. Well, I’m going in. I guess you can hang out out here if you want to. But eventually, Luke goes in and they’re sitting there together. First of all, they get carded. David’s, like, well, did you card those guys? So the bartender’s like, alright.  What do you want?

Clip:  And I can’t help but notice that those ladies over there are drinking cheap beer. That seems like a shame to me. I’d like to buy each 1 of them a blowjob shop.

Craig:  Are you serious? I am. Yes.

Clip:  Do you wanna buy anything for their fellas? Do I look like I’d like to buy something for their fellas?

Craig:  Might be the polite thing to do.

Clip:  Sure. Okay. Fine. Let me get he’s 1 of those guys in cosmopolitan.

Craig:  1 of the boys comes over and says thanks for and I don’t know. I mean, like, it’s all kind of a setup. I didn’t really see it coming in the moment, but it seems like he had a plan in mind. Because he ordered for himself what they called a fireball, which, you know, I’ve heard of fireball whiskey, but apparently this is whiskey and a bunch of Tabasco sauce. So when this guy comes over, he’s like, thanks for the drink, but I don’t want it. And he throws it in David’s face. And David doesn’t really react. Although this guy is a really good actor, like, you can kind of just very subtly see, like, fury in his face for a moment, but then he composes himself and wipes his face off and he says, Maybe you’ll like this better.  And he throws the fireball in this guy’s face which blinds him. So it it makes me think that that was his

Todd:  Plan all along.

Craig:  All along. And then there’s an awesome bar fight. Yeah. Like like almost like a Jean Claude Van Damme kinda deal where David, like, kicks everybody in the bar’s ass single handedly.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And it looked great. It’s shot really well. It’s choreographed really well. It was really fun to watch.

Todd:  Yeah. You know, a lot of the movies that way and the violence in this movie is really brutal. There’s not a lot of blood or anything, but when when somebody’s kicking or punching or hitting somebody, I mean, you hear the snap and you see the the action. It’s it’s clear and it’s, it’s good. It’s crisp. This guy seems like a real problem for anybody who’s getting across him. He comes across as extremely dangerous and a little unhinged.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, totally unhinged. And he incapacitates him. Like, you hear their bones breaking. And by the end of it, all of those guys, those high school football players are on the ground, like, writhing in pain, like, they can’t even get up. And then he’s also super manipulative. You know? He’s like, you should call the cops and tell them what really happened. And then he lays out the what really happened story.  Like, these boys were causing trouble, and you can’t really describe the other guys. And for whatever reason, he has a ton of money. Again, that’s never explained either. But like, he’s just got, you know, a stack of 100 in his pocket at all times. And he lays out a few $100 on the table and he’s like, for the damages. And so they just walk away from it free and clear. So this guy, you know, he’s he’s a physical menace, but he’s also smart and really, really good at manipulation and also smoking hot. I so it so in October, you know, I I joke about my partner on here a lot, but he’s actually a really great guy and he doesn’t like horror movies.  But in October every year, he’ll watch them with me for the whole month and not complain about it. And we watched this together. We we just kept saying, oh my Todd, he is so ugly. If I have to look at him for 1 more second, I’m just gonna throw up.

Todd:  And he told me

Craig:  last night, he’s, like, make sure to

Clip:  talk about how smoking hot he is.

Todd:  I’m like,

Craig:  don’t worry. I will.

Todd:  You he’s he’s hot to the point of of parody. I mean, it’s like it’s like could they have found a guy more attractive for this movie who every time the camera comes in on his face, every hair is in the right spot, his eyes are just sparkling. You know, I mean, it’s just kind of insane.

Craig:  Yeah. I was gonna say they, like, they they cast kind of against type because I guess this guy had previously been known for being a regular on Downton Abbey, which I don’t watch so I I didn’t recognize him from that. But I guess he was kinda schlumpy and chubby in that show. And then, right before this movie, he had done another film where he had to be super, super emaciated. And that’s what he looked like when they auditioned him and they really liked him and they really wanted to cast him, but it was part of his contract that he had to bulk up. And so, like, he went on this huge exercise regimen and really just bulked up for the part. I didn’t notice so much. Like, I feel like I subtly noticed, but the filmmakers say if you’re watching, you can tell that his body is drastically different in different parts of the movie Yeah.  Because they shot it out of sequence, and he has 1 shirtless scene where he’s just in a towel. And they saved that to shoot at the very end because they knew that was their money shot, and they want him to wanted him to be as ripped as he could possibly be in that shot. And he is. Yeah. And he looks fantastic. You know, it’s it’s interest I would have just thought that this was some pretty boy actor.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And I would have been fine with that. But apparently, you know, it was very character driven. They wanted him to work for this body and he did.

Todd:  Well, it served him well because a couple years after this movie, he played, the beast in the Disney’s, live action Beauty and the Beast.

Craig:  Mhmm. Mhmm.

Todd:  So, and yeah. He looks great in there. And then since then, he’s been on Legion, the TV series, which I I kind of recognized him from. I don’t watch the show, but I’ve seen, like, clips from it and stuff like that. Right. And yeah. I mean, this guy’s this guy’s working. He’s Yeah.  He’s been doing, like, 5 or 6 projects a year for a long time. Oh, yeah. So and he’s a great actor and he’s

Craig:  great in this. He is. He’s really good. And he’s he’s good not only in the fact that he looks really good. I mean, that’s a bonus.

Todd:  Oh, he’s a great actor.

Craig:  He is. And he can do some really subtle things with his facial expressions, and I don’t know. You know, I’m sure it was part character choice, part directorial choice, but they said anytime you see him in close-up, he almost never blinks. And they they did that intentionally to highlight that there was something off about him. Something may be superhuman to some extent. And and I and I noticed. And, it it it’s effective. It’s creepy.  It’s unsettling.

Todd:  Well, and you know, you notice almost a little too much. I don’t know. I the movie just is very bold in the way that it it just throws all its cards on the table. And I feel like maybe that’s maybe this is 1 of the things that throws me off a little bit about Adam Wingard and Ty West and their style is that their movies take some pretty big risks and they are pretty bold and they just do lay it out there. And usually, it works for them, but it’s a little jarring for me. You know, I sort of expect the filmmakers to pretend a little bit, like, to drop little bread crumbs instead of just from the very beginning like, this guy’s bad and we’re gonna make it obvious to you that this guy’s bad from the very beginning. You know? Usually movies at least pretend that they’re gonna string you along and slowly reveal to you just how bad they are.

Craig:  I actually kinda liked that about this movie because I felt like we were a step ahead of the other characters in the movie. We get the impression right away that there’s something off about him. But I also believed that he was charismatic enough to fool the characters. And so, I was just kind of waiting for him to reveal himself, or for them to pick up on the little things. I don’t know. It it worked for me that we were a step ahead, of the other players. But, you know, I I get what you’re saying.

Todd:  I mean, it’s just economical, you know, just it’s just different, you know. It’s it’s very different and it’s what kinda made this movie a little different from, like, again, I just kind of think of like the hand that rocks the cradle and some of these other films where you even know going in. I mean, you’ve seen the previews, you know what kind of movie you’re going to see. But but usually it’s it’s done a little more slowly. In this way, it’s just kind of a matter of seeing how things unfold and figuring out his motivations and what’s going on. And you’re right. Everything else is quite realistic. The fact that the daughter it’s hard to say.  She’s maybe a little skeptical, but maybe just more disinterested. And as she expresses it to her boyfriend, Zeke.

Craig:  So that friend of your brother, is he sticking around?

Clip:  I don’t know. I hope not.

Craig:  Why? You said you liked him.

Clip:  I said he seemed nice. It’s not the same thing. I don’t not like him. It’s just I don’t know. I mean, you kinda knew Caleb. We’ve all I just know mom and dad have been trying to move on. It’s not like they don’t have enough reminders in this town. Guess we just don’t need a walking, breathing reminder of him right now, you know?

Todd:  But it’s interesting to see her also kind of turn around.

Craig:  She I mean, she ends up being taken by his charms. She’s going to a party. Anna’s going to a party, and the mom says you should take him. And she’s resentful. She doesn’t want to, but she does. And then at this party, you know, he plays it very cool. Like, he smokes weed with them, and he gets along well with her friends, especially, you know, 1 of her girlfriends that she works with. He stands up for her when her shitty boyfriend shows up or ex boyfriend shows up.  He smashes this guy’s head into the wall, like, within 30 seconds of meeting him, and gets him out of there. And then, of course, you know, that girl takes him in the back and bones him. I don’t think that Anna knows that. I think that she’s out of the room when that happens. And then Anna, you know, has a fight with her boyfriend, and you can just tell that she’s starting to look at him in a different way. And surprise, he’s super hot. Like, she’s a 20 something girl. I don’t know.  I assume he’s supposed to be in his twenties. It would be hard not to fall prey to his wiles, you know?

Todd:  If anything, it’s it’s inconceivable that it didn’t happen a little sooner.

Craig:  Right. Right. Right. But and he even, like, he’s I don’t know if it’s flirting exactly, but he’s being very charming with her. Like, he won’t allow her to drive because you’re stoned. And she says, well, you smoke Todd. And he’s like, yeah, but I’m bigger than you. And then he goes around and he opens the passenger side door for her.  And he, you know, listens to her talk about her boyfriend and why they’re fighting or whatever. And he says something like, well, if I had a girl like you at home

Todd:  I wouldn’t have gone off to war. Right. Right. It’s so corny. And But it works.

Craig:  And he’s like, oh, I really like your music. And she’s like, oh, yeah. It’s just a mix I made. And he’s like, well, I wish you’d make me 1 and put this song on it. Like like, they’re exchanging mixtapes like it’s 1996. Like

Todd:  I know. Right?

Clip:  Well

Craig:  It’s very it’s very flirtatious and and and charming. And then she she runs in, you know, at at some point, she has to go I don’t know if she has to go to work or she has to go somewhere or whatever, and she pounds on the bathroom door thinking her brother’s in there. And then he comes out in his towel slung really low around his hips and, you know. Yeah. Obviously, she appreciates his form, you know, like

Todd:  There’s steam coming out from the room behind him. It’s so funny. Right.

Craig:  But then weird things start happening. Anna does some research. She calls I don’t know, the military. I don’t know who you call when you call the military, but she calls them and asks about him. And the the the person that she’s talking to is on a computer, and an alert comes up on the computer right away. Contact the KPG.

Todd:  Is that

Craig:  what it was? Something like that. Some organization contact them immediately. And then you see these shots of, like, these, you know, shady government figures talking about him, and they’re like, no 1 can know that the subject is still alive. And all of that is kind of interesting, but it left me wanting an explanation that we never really get. Yeah. It’s just, you know, like, they’re after him. They know he’s dangerous, but we don’t really get an explanation of why.

Todd:  It even begs questions, like, that are never really answered and that maybe Caleb was a part of this too. Right?

Craig:  I think he I think he was.

Todd:  Well, yeah. It’s hard to say, really. But then Yeah. You know, I read something that said, well, no. This guy was was brought into this program after he suffered the injuries that maybe killed Caleb. You know, that they really, literally were he really was at his side. They both kinda suffered from this explosion or whatever. Caleb died, and and David survived, and he was brought into this program because of his, you know, his his injuries.  Apparently, these scenes were shot after. These scenes were added to the movie later to add a little bit more explanation. So in 1 hand, the test audiences thought there was a little too much explanation in some aspects. But then when you took all that out, they needed a little something else to because because the just the government agents suddenly showing up at this house later on, where they have this big fire fight later, was a little too abrupt. Like, people didn’t really know where it was coming from. Fair enough. So we get a little bit of introduction to them here earlier. And so and those those scenes, honestly, they do feel a little stuck in.  I don’t know what it is about them. Even though it it kinda makes sense to put them in the movie, There’s something about the tone or the pacing or maybe just the fact that we’ve had we’ve spent so much time with this family in this extremely domestic setting for so long that to suddenly jump us out to a government agency and bring this movie out to that world felt really unnatural. Yeah. You know?

Craig:  It reminds me it reminds me a little bit of Cabin in the Woods. You know, where you’ve got kind of this traditional horror movie going on, but then it keeps cutting back to this government agency who’s involved somehow. Yeah. I think that Cabin in the Woods does it much more seamlessly where, you know, you understand what the connection is, but it’s that abrupt shift in style and tone that reminds me of this a little bit.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah.

Craig:  Todd David talks to, I think, a Craig dealer at the party or something is like, can you get me some guns? And he’s like, yeah. Sure. I know a guy. So David meets these guys in the desert, and the gun dealer is Ethan Embry. I love Ethan Embry. But, he’s got, like, this whole arsenal of, like, military grade weapons, and David’s like, I’ll take them all. And he’s like, oh, cool. Well, if you’ll take them all, I’ll cut you a deal.  And he’s like, oh, no. I’m not gonna pay for them. I’m gonna kill you. And then he does. He, just, you know, in cold blood kills both of them and takes all their money.

Todd:  Well, and he shoots the guy. This guy’s got this huge running start to to run away from him, and he calmly turns around and reloads the gun and and and turns back around, takes aim and is able to shoot this guy with a handgun, from so far away, it doesn’t even make sense. But, again, that kinda gives you this feeling that there’s something a little supernatural about him. Or once again, because we’ve seen those scenes with the government agents, maybe there’s more than just his body being able to, you know I mean, it’s it’s a little much. It’s Okay. So apparently, he can’t feel pain up anymore. He can’t feel empathy anymore. He he’s able to aim and shoot a gun from afar, like, in a way that Yeah.  Shouldn’t even be possible. At least. Right. You know, he’s super strong to be able to beat these people up without us, you know, got these split second reflexes. Everything about him just points like he’s freaking Robocop. I agree. It’s it’s intriguing the way the movie builds this up. You’re just seeing more and more and more of his talents And you’re wondering, is this even a man? The government agency thing at the by the end of the day, I feel like almost kind of like undercuts that a bit.  It’s like, oh, he’s just some government experiment, but I don’t know. I’m trying to say what I’m trying to say is it’s almost he’s, like, too good for government work.

Craig:  Nah. Good 1. No. I mean, I it’s you know, he’s a super soldier. Yeah. I I get that. We’ve seen that in movies before Todd. I mean, it’s not necessarily really believable in the real world, but it’s not like a new concept that we’ve never seen before.

Todd:  No. It’s not. But

Craig:  But, you know, just random things. He’s just off. And and you can tell, like, when in the first conversation that he had had with the dad, the dad had lamented about losing a promotion to somebody who was younger and less experienced, but who had a college degree. And we find out via a phone call that that guy and his girlfriend had been murdered in their home, and now the dad gets a promotion. So, you know, obviously David killed them, but it’s almost like he killed them in the service of the family. Yeah. So, you don’t really know what his motivations are. And he’s trying to help this kid, Luke.  They carve pumpkins together and, David’s like, your mom’s knife sucks. And he pulls out like a butterfly knife and carves it. And then he gives the knife to Luke and he says

Clip:  Never let anyone pick on you. Otherwise, you’ll carry it with you the rest of your life. And those kids at school, they’re bigger than you. Yeah. And bring a knife to school. They take it off you and beat you up. You go around their houses at night and burn them down with their families inside. What’s the worst they can do? Yeah.  Okay. Which I thought was pretty funny.

Craig:  But the kid, you know, kinda takes it to heart. And the next time that he does get bullied in school, he does fight back. It’s violent, and I was afraid that he was gonna pull that knife out and and stab the kid, but he doesn’t. But nonetheless, he gets expelled. But, again, weird, like, the mom and David come to the school

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  To talk to the principal. Like, why why would David go there? Why would he go in? Why would he even be allowed to go in? Like, that doesn’t even make any sense. But again, he’s got a great I love the this clip.

Clip:  You know, the kid, the 1 Luke hit in the face. What did he call Luke?  I don’t think that’s relevant to this conversation.

Craig:  Did

Clip:  he call him a faggot?  I believe that’s the word that was used. Yes. But that’s no excuse.  So that makes it a hate crime. What? A hate crime. And I’d like to know how many others have been perpetrated against her son under your watch. A gay student targeted with physical violence finally defends himself and you’re what? Suspending him?  We could consider suspension.  No. You couldn’t. I’ll be interested to see what the board makes of you when this is in front of the entire country. Not to mention our lawyers. Do you wanna sue them?  III don’t,  We’re suing you and the school board.

Craig:  He’s good. He’s very manipulative, and good at getting his way even in nonviolent fashion.

Todd:  Yeah. I mean, he’s he’s good mentally. He’s good physically. He’s yeah. He’s a Craig, crazy ass super soldier. Then he also frames, the girlfriend’s deadbeat boy the girl, Anna’s deadbeat boyfriend. He drops the gun in his van or whatever and then the police pull over the van, find the gun that killed, the gun dealer, and then the the cops go to his house and find out all the drugs he’s got, and he’s been dealing as well. So he says, I’m gonna be in jail for a while.  And so it’s like he’s trying to help this family in a way. He’s clearing the way for them. He’s helping out both the kid. He’s helping out Anna in a way that she wouldn’t really like, but she’s he’s getting this guy out of out of her way. He does all these things, but then the guys show up.

Craig:  The KPG or whatever?

Todd:  The KPG shows up at the house. Anna does some research. Right? She steals his phone and she looks through his phone numbers and decides she’s gonna try calling some of them, trying to get her brother involved to find things out. And so Luke does some investigation of his own and he kind of figures it all out.

Craig:  Yeah. And this was 1 of my favorite parts too because after David kind of, you know, saves his skin at school, Luke approaches him and says, because he’s got it all figured out, I know that you’re not really who you say you are. I know that you’re not really David, whatever the last name was that he gave. Meanwhile, I’m thinking, really? I didn’t know that. Who is he then? Yeah. And And he’s

Todd:  like, I know you killed these people, and I know you killed those people and all that. And he’s just rattled

Craig:  it up. Care.

Todd:  Then I don’t care. And he’s like, well, why do you think I would do that? He’s like, oh, I just figured it’s because you’re part of some government experiment. I mean, he just kind of, like, basically lays the whole thing out.

Craig:  He says, I’m not gonna tell anybody, and and David’s like, why not? He’s like, because you’re my friend. And, like, I I just thought that was really clever writing. Like, this kid who’s been bullied and who I’m sure has been, you know, it’s it’s been made clear that he doesn’t have any friends. Now, here’s this cool kick ass guy who’s got his back. You know, he doesn’t, so you killed my dad’s boss? I don’t care. I’m not gonna tell anybody because you’re my friend. And it’s kinda twisted, but at the same time, I bought it.

Todd:  Yeah. And it it ranches up the tension because you’re wondering how’s David gonna react to this. Is he is he gonna have to neutralize this kid too?

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  But he’s gotta keep him alive at least a little while longer to pump him for more information. He says like, well, who else knows? And, he says, well, I think my well, of course my sister. He’s like, and then and then she probably told her friend, who is the woman that he had helped earlier at the party. So, instantly now, Luke has put the family in danger. So now, it’s sort of the switch. Right? Now, he’s been helping the family all this time. Now, we’re a little worried that the family’s gonna gonna have to suffer some consequences because it’s more important that he keeps his secret.

Craig:  Right. And that that’s when the KPG or whatever shows up and everything, you know, it’s like his initiative just immediately switches. It’s no longer about taking care of this family. It’s about protecting himself. And that whole, you know, gunfight, again, I thought was great. I mean, it just looked aesthetically, it looked fantastic.

Todd:  Absolutely. That’s great.

Craig:  And there are several nods, to Halloween in this movie. But, you know, the mom is hanging sheets when the SWAT team or whatever they are shows up and, like, the sheets are blowing in the wind and they say they’re there for David. And the mom says, Oh, well, he just went inside. And then the sheet blows to the side to reveal him standing there with a laundry basket, you know, kind of like the Michael Myers reveal behind the sheets or whatever. And he runs inside and grabs his gun and there’s this huge firefight. And he gets inside and the mom is in there Todd and they end up in the same place and she says, You’re a liar. You lied to us. And he says something like, No, I Todd you the truth.  I really did know him and I really was there with him. But then she cries out to the other people, he’s here, and he just shoots her. Like, I I really didn’t see that coming.

Todd:  Well, what he says is he says your your son and I were part of the same program, And so he would understand what I have to do here. And he’s got a knife and he’s about to stab her and that’s when she screams out.

Craig:  Oh, that’s great.

Todd:  He just stabs her there. Yeah. I didn’t see that coming either. It was it was really sad. It was very much out of left field because this is just a minute after he starts actually apologizing. This is where it gets a little funny. Right? Is because in the middle of this firefight, he’s having this almost sincere conversation with her being all apologetic, like, I’m really sorry. I didn’t really mean for it to come to this and I didn’t mean to impose upon you you people.  And that’s the setup that makes it so jarring that he ends up stabbing her. And then, you know, he he manages to get out. He takes off in a truck, going down the road, flying down the road. And the father is coming towards him. He recognizes the father’s truck. So he buckles in and he rams this guy head on, which he knows is gonna pretty much kill him. And he walks around to the side of the door and shoots him point blank to finish the job.

Craig:  Which I still don’t really understand. I mean, at this point, is he just gonna have to take them all out just because they know about him now? I mean, is that Yeah.

Todd:  That’s it’s a little hazy. Right? And this is the explanation given by the the special agent whose name is Richard, and he’s played by a very, you know, very recognizable,

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Character actor named, Lance Reddick, major carver. He’s he’s he’s decent in this film. He he’s, you know, improbably kind of last man standing in all these fire fights for a while. And he goes after him. And I think at some point, he manages to grab Anna before David can. And so in the car he explains everything to her. Again, a little improbably, because aren’t they supposed to be keeping this a secret?

Craig:  I know. I just have written down exposition. I don’t remember what it is. So you’re gonna have to fill me in.

Todd:  Yeah. I mean, once again, it’s like his whole the whole motivation for them doing what they’re doing is to try to cover this up. So I’m not sure why he’s telling this 20 year old girl in the car everything that’s going on. But he basically says that David was part of the super secret program, and he had this injury. And, after the injury, they he he agreed to undergo this treatment or this whatever, the super secret deal that gave him, like, a new spine, the metal spine, and made him invincible. And they also had targeted him because of his empathy, like, specifically because he was such a nice guy. But something about whatever they did to him actually eliminated his empathy. And they say he said it’s in he’s programmed.  He said basically, this guy’s programmed to neutralize, any knowledge of him or KPG or the company or the program. The idea is it’s a sort of a Manchurian Candidate kinda thing, where now that switch has been flipped in his brain that, other people know and now he’s gotta go around and kill all the people who could possibly know. It’s a real jarring switch. And I maybe that’s what feels a little off about the movie to me is you have this clever, sinister, deceptive, superhuman guy who’s worming his way into the family in these really smart ways and really manipulating. And then for the last part of the movie, the switch that’s been flipped in his head and now he’s just gotta go around and kill everybody come what may. Which leads Right. To scenes like him going into the diner and he sees Kristen, who is, Anna’s girl a friend.

Craig:  The the girl he slept with at the party. Right?

Todd:  Yeah. And he says, where’s Anna? And she’s, I don’t know. He he left with she she just left. Well, she actually left with that agent. And he says, okay. And he just whips out the gun and shoots her right there in the middle of the entire diner and then pops back out to the car, comes back in and tosses in 2 grenades to blow up presumably everybody else in there and, and the diner itself. So he he just gets real sloppy all of a sudden, you know? Now it’s like I don’t even care. That’s that’s where the movie took a strong tonal shift for me, and was just a little jarring.

Craig:  Well, I I agree with you, because he’s not nearly as, skillful in the last act as he has been before. I mean, he takes out an entire bar in act 1, and then in act 3, he gets taken down by a teenager.

Todd:  But Yeah. That’s true.

Craig:  I I do like the, set piece for the final act. You know, this this whole showdown takes place at this Halloween dance. Anna finds Luke and tells him about David, and he’s like, no. It doesn’t make any sense. David would never hurt us. He’s our friend. And she says, well, he killed mom and dad. Oh.  No. Oh, okay then. And so, you know, it becomes kind of this chase through this Halloween dance, which I love. I mean, it’s all black lights and decorations and

Todd:  It’s a haunted maze. It’s like they have to go through a haunted house just to get into this dance.

Craig:  Right. Which is fun. Yeah.

Todd:  It’s cool

Craig:  concept. It’s really fun to watch. And, like, the Halloween 3 masks are projected all over the walls and stuff. That was pretty cool. It’s just basically a chase. Like David is is looking for Luke and Anna. I I feel like he kills some random guy along the way. Yeah.  But, Luke has his knife ready. And at 1 point, you know, when David is coming, Anna has a gun and she shoots him, but she just, hits him in the shoulder. And then David, he gets her and he is, like, choking her. Right? But then Luke stabs him? It seems like that’s kind of the end of it. Like, it’s they they think he’s dead.

Todd:  Yeah. Well, he he stabs him and and he swings around, and then I think it either Anna grabs a knife or he’s got the knife still and stabs him flat in the chest, like, right in the heart. Right.

Craig:  Right. Yes.

Todd:  And this is, again, where a little bit of more of the comedy comes in because he falls backwards. It also happens to be, like, the graveyard scene of the of the gym or whatever, which is interesting. But then he just looks up at them and he’s, like You did the right thing.

Clip:  I don’t blame you.

Todd:  Mhmm. It’s kinda funny. Again, a little off, but these guys do this kinda thing. And so, I was, you know, I was ready for it. But, yeah. So he he collapses. He’s he’s dead. I mean, his eyes are open and he’s laying there, and he’s got a knife in his heart, and there’s blood and all that stuff.  And the next scene we see is, you know, is the aftermath. It’s all the ambulances and the cops and people pulling bodies out and gurneys and stuff like that, you know. And and Anna and Luke are sitting consoling each other in the back of a ambulance and they’re watching the people come and go and out comes a fireman or a person in a fireman’s outfit with a limp just like David had Mhmm. Because he had injured his leg earlier. And he turns and he looks at her and you can see clearly through the mask that it’s him. Mhmm. And it just closes in on her face and she goes, what the fuck?

Craig:  And then that’s it. That’s it. Right?

Todd:  Yeah. The Credits. Really? Okay.

Craig:  I I liked it. I I thought it was, you know, it’s that was funny. Yeah.

Todd:  Very funny. The only way to end a movie like this on a zinger, right, is to do this. It it’s, I don’t know. You know, I like I said, it’s a perfectly fine serviceable movie. I enjoyed watching it. There were times in which I really wanted to know what was going on and and how this was gonna unfold. There were times when it felt a little false. There were tonal shifts in the movie that were a little jarring and a little weird.  And I think, like I said, this is what I kinda get from these guys’ movies a little bit, is they’re just bold to do these things. And it’s not like it’s bad. It’s not like it doesn’t work for some people. It’s just not typical, I guess I should say. And that’s not necessarily a criticism. It just, was something that was blatantly apparent to me as I watched it and and doesn’t always settle well with me. Maybe I’m just a traditional, like, I kinda like stories to be a certain way. Maybe that’s my problem.  I don’t know.

Craig:  I thought that the movie had excellent production value.

Clip:  Yes.

Craig:  You know, I thought that it was shot really well. The fight scenes and the gun showdown scenes, I thought were excellent. The acting all around, I thought was good. Yeah. Quite good, actually. I I really liked the score and the soundtrack. It had a lot of stuff going for it. You know, the actor, Dan Stevens, was really pretty to look at for the whole movie.  And so my partner and I both enjoyed that aspect of it. I don’t really have any criticism of it. I just didn’t love it. I just thought it was alright. I would never discourage anybody from seeing it. I think other people might appreciate it more than I did. I mean, it’s got good action. I felt like the whole single white female mysterious dangerous character was a little cliched.  But Yeah. So what? So is, you know, 75% of the stuff that we watch.

Todd:  And I didn’t mind that. You know, like you say, it did feel a little cliched, and it did feel a little predictable. And, like, okay, he’s gonna befriend her. And, oh, here’s a problem with this kid. He’s gonna solve that. You know, you don’t know how it’s gonna happen, but you kinda know this is the direction it’s gonna go. I think the questions that are left unanswered are maybe the most frustrating thing about the movie

Craig:  Yeah. Agreed.

Todd:  Just like Agreed. Why did he even do any of this in the first place? Why did he go to this family and try to solve their problems? I I just Yeah. Don’t get that at all. And I still don’t get it even at the end. And the end is just even a little more confusing, like, okay. So now he’s almost completely invincible dude. Is he just gonna walk away? Are we setting it up for a potential sequel? You know what? Yeah. And so so it left me with a little bit of that feeling, although I was very entertained by the movie.  I agree with everything you said. But it was just yeah. It didn’t have that satisfying at the end of it.

Craig:  But again, I would still recommend it. If you haven’t seen it, it it’s it’s totally worth an evening. Yeah.

Todd:  It is.

Craig:  It’s a totally serviceable action thriller horror film. It it there’s a lot of really good stuff going on.

Todd:  I agree. I agree. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this 1, please share it with a friend. You can find us on Facebook. You can find our website. You can just search for us on Google, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. Find our Facebook page.  Leave us a message there. Find our, 2 guys at redfortynet.com where we have all of our back episodes. We’re in October now. If you know of any really good Halloween movies for us to do, it would be perfect this month. Leave us a comment at 1 of those 2 places and, we’ll consider it.

Craig:  Well and, you know, we got other good holidays coming up Todd. Thanksgiving and Christmas. We love some Christmas horror movies. If you’ve got any gems there, let us know about those too.

Todd:  Those are harder to find than the Halloween ones sometimes. And and even harder than either of those 2 are the Thanksgiving ones. Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Alright. Until next time. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.