What's the difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive one—and how do you know when it's time to speak up?

In this powerful conversation, Francie sits down with counselor and author Leslie Vernick to unpack destructive patterns in marriage, reclaiming your voice, and what it truly means to be a strong, biblical woman.

Together, they address harmful teachings around submission, the loss of a woman's voice, and how to discern between normal marital struggles and unhealthy or abusive dynamics.

This episode offers both clarity and practical wisdom for women who feel confused, shut down, or unsure of what is healthy in their marriage.

What You'll Learn

The difference between a disappointing marriage and a destructive one

Why "submission" has often been misunderstood and misapplied

What it means to be an ezer—a strong, helping partner, not a silent one

How to begin using your voice in a healthy, grounded way

Signs of emotional, spiritual, or relational harm

How to discern your next steps with wisdom and support

A healthy marriage allows for honesty, growth, and mutual care. If your voice is consistently dismissed, ignored, or punished, something deeper may be wrong.

About Leslie Vernick

Leslie Vernick is a licensed counselor, author, and speaker dedicated to helping individuals and couples navigate difficult and destructive relationships. With over 40 years of counseling experience, she specializes in emotional abuse, relationship health, and biblical wisdom for real-life challenges.

She is the author of The Emotionally Destructive Marriage and founder of Leslie Vernick Ministries, where she equips women to move from confusion and fear into clarity, strength, and truth.

Resources + Next Steps

Book: The Emotionally Destructive Marriage by Leslie Vernick

Website: leslievernick.com (find the Free Quiz: Is your marriage difficult, disappointing, or destructive? And, Free Training: If He Doesn't Hit You, Is It Still Abuse?)

If you are in a situation that feels unsafe or confusing, seeking wise, informed support is an important next step.

Note from Francie

This conversation may feel tender or activating if you've experienced harm in your marriage. You are not alone, and there is help available.

Connect with Francie

🎓 Back to the Garden: A Married Woman's Guide to Pleasure by Design — get a see a fresh vision of what a fully alive, God-honoring intimacy (and pleasure) could actually look like for your marriage. → here

🌿 The Circle — group mentorship community where women have conversations with likeminded women on a journey together towards more→ here

📩 Submit your listener question → Instagram DMs or franciewinslow.com