This conversation reflects on the urgent need for genuine transformation in the church, rather than simply tweaking what isn’t working. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the signs that point to deeper issues—like plateauing membership, aging congregations, and stagnating giving—and why now is the time for a true “hero’s journey” of change, not just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Rex Miller in Ep. 254: Digital Disruption and the Future of the Church:

"There are some telltale signs that it's time to go on a hero's journey. One telltale sign is we're plateauing in our membership. Or our members are getting older.  Or our giving is plateauing. Now is not the time to try to rearrange the chairs on the Titanic.”

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Church leaders recognize critical signs—like plateauing membership, aging congregations, and stagnant giving—that indicate the need for deep transformation.
• Leaders create only superficial change when they settle for “rearranging the chairs on the Titanic” instead of tackling the root issues.
• Effective leadership requires admitting when you don’t know what to do and being willing to learn all over again.
• Leaders lose key, healthy members when they make ministry primarily about themselves rather than about something greater.
• Transformation happens when leaders embrace adaptive change, let go of their expertise, and journey into new ways of leading.

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