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Matthew Soerens joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the intersection of immigration policy and human trafficking, exploring how vulnerable immigration status increases the risk of exploitation and trafficking.
Matthew Soerens is vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis.
[00:00:03] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 350. I am Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we help you study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.
[00:00:29] Today we are joined by Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a. Biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis.
[00:01:06] Sandie Morgan: I’m really happy to Welcome back to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief.
[00:01:19] Welcome back, Matthew. So glad
[00:01:20] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, so glad to be with you again, Sandie
[00:01:22] Sandie Morgan: we have a lot to talk about. First of all, tell us,briefly, what does world relief do,
[00:01:30] Matthew Soerens: World Relief is a global Christian humanitarian organization that,has existed for about 80 years. Our mission is to boldly engage the world’s greatest crises in partnership with the church. And, and right now as we look at. Crises around the world, we see displacement people being forced to flee from their homes and from their countries.
[00:01:48] In many cases, as really near the top of the list of global crises. It’s also a global crisis, of course, that intersects in many situations with challenges of human trafficking. So this is an issue we carry a great deal about both in the United States and around the world.
[00:02:03] Sandie Morgan: All right. And from the perspective of human trafficking, this is the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. There are several elements in our discussion today that we wanna clarify. First is the difference between smuggling and trafficking. Can you do that in 25 words?
[00:02:25] Matthew Soerens: Sure. I think so. I mean, trafficking under US law is when people are made to work under forced fraud or coercion, whether it’s sex trafficking or labor trafficking. Smuggling is when someone is brought across the border against the law. Now those things can be related. People who are smuggled could also be being trafficked, but they’re not the same thing.
[00:02:43] And I think the risk of. Conflating those terms is that we think of trafficking sometimes as something that happens at the border when actually trafficking can happen anywhere in the world, and it can happen to immigrants and sometimes they’re uniquely vulnerable. But it also can happen to American citizens.
[00:02:58] It can happen within a country. It can happen with people who are outside of their country. And I do think that distinction sometimes gets conflated in some of the political dialogue in some unhelpful ways.
[00:03:07] Sandie Morgan: All right. And,that’s really helpful for our listeners who live along the borders here in the US and beyond. I was in Madrid, in May, in Greece in February, and this issue of smuggling and trafficking being conflated is a. Constant challenge to overcome. Now, you mentioned the issues of fraud and coercion, and people in migrant status often have driving forces that increase their vulnerability. So can you talk about what that looks like right now from a global crisis perspective?
[00:03:52] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, I think one of the reasons we see that people who are migrant or refugees or asylum seekers, these various legal, statuses for people who have fled their homes. Are vulnerable to human trafficking is precisely that they are in a different cultural setting where they don’t know the rules, they don’t know their rights under the law, or what the laws are.
[00:04:11] In some cases, and depending on what their legal status in terms of migration is, that can create further reasons that they’re suspicious of law enforcement. So they may feel like they can’t report if they’re being forced or coerced. Into a work situation where they’re not being paid or they’re being paid less than they should or even into situations of, sexual trafficking.
[00:04:33] And so we often find that,immigrants of various kinds are uniquely vulnerable to situations of human trafficking. And the less legal protections that they have, wherever they happen to be, the more vulnerable they are, the less likely they are to speak up, to know that they can go and ask for help when they’re being mistreated and, and exploited.
[00:04:52] Sandie Morgan: I quit counting a long time ago. How many frontline service professionals like yourself have told me? Victims didn’t even know they were victims. They often felt like they made a poor decision. but because of their desperation, the risk element, we misunderstand that I am measuring risk. By sitting in my air conditioned home with two cars in the driveway. somebody else is measuring risk by, I don’t know how I’m going to feed my children or where we are going to sleep tonight. So,
[00:05:33] Matthew Soerens: And if I make you know, the wrong decision, do I end up in an even more vulnerable situation back in a country where I was being persecuted or where someone was out to get me? And those are the, the stresses that weigh on people in some cases as they assess what their options are.
[00:05:51] Sandie Morgan: Absolutely. Okay, so right now in the US we are reevaluating a lot of our immigration policies, and some of it has had unintended consequence. And so one of the things that happened just last week. Is from my state in California. Six of our Republican legislators wrote a letter to ask that we be a little more concerned about how we. Implementing some of those policies and I’ll put a link to the letter in our show notes. But Matthew, do you want to give us some background and your perspective on what this means moving forward?
[00:06:46] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, I was encouraged to see this letter. I think it’s responding to something that we’ve said at World Relief, which is we actually really want our federal government to have a little bit of discernment between. Making sure that our government is doing its job and protecting the American population by removing people with due process and fair treatment.
[00:07:03] But people who have been convicted of violent crimes, who present the public safety threat,including those who would be committing human trafficking. We want our government to go after those people and prosecute those crimes. And if convicted of course, and if they’re eligible to, to deport people who’ve been, who are foreign nationals at this.
[00:07:21] What we’ve seen though is that. As there’s been a big push towards deportations, most of the people who are being detained have not been convicted of violent crimes. In fact, it’s only a very small share of those who are detained right now who have been convicted of violent crimes. It’s,a minority who’ve been of those detained, who’ve been convicted of any crime at all.
[00:07:40] And what we’ve seen is a great deal of fear among people who have not been convicted of any crime,but who are concerned about deportation or being detained or separated from their family. And again, that goes to this dynamic of vulnerability that when people feel vulnerable, they don’t wanna talk to the police even when they’re victims of crimes like trafficking.
[00:07:59] and so these,lawmakers there in the state of California. Basically ask the federal government, to use some discernment like yes, to go after those convicted of violent crimes, but not to be so broad in their immigration raids and sweeps that they’re picking up people who have not committed crimes and have not been convicted of crimes.
[00:08:16] And that’s consistent with what we’ve found at world relief most Evangelical Christians want to see as well. We don’t want immigrant communities, we don’t want immigrant churches. To be filled with fear but of course we do want people who have actually, done harm and are a public safety threat to face justice.
[00:08:31] Sandie Morgan: So, one quote from the letter says, the fear is driving vital workers out of critical industries. Taking California’s affordability crisis and making it even worse for our constituents. Matthew, how do we communicate The value that the immigrant labor force brings to us
[00:08:59] Matthew Soerens: I mean, I think in California is sort of a case study of this, but it’s true across the country. The reality is if you eat. You are benefiting from immigrants because immigrants play an enormous role in the agricultural sector in the United States. And again, a lot of that actually comes out of California, but other states as well.
[00:09:16] if you live in a home, there’s a pretty good chance that there are immigrants involved in the construction industry in many parts of the United States. And many of those people have legal status, but frankly, some of them don’t. Some of them came many years ago,overstate of visa or crossed the border unlawfully at a time when that was.
[00:09:31] Fairly easy to do 20, 30 years ago. And what we’ve said at World Relief is we we’re not condoning that violation of an immigration law many years ago, but we also are acknowledging that we have actually benefited from those folks hard work and that many of them are brothers and sisters in Christ.
[00:09:48] And we think that rather than a, a massive sweep that. Removes people after 20, 30 years from the country and separates them from US-born children. Uh, there ought to be a way for them to make things right. You know, whether that’s paying a fine or whatever that legal process would be, that would allow them to get right with the law and then have the confidence to know.
[00:10:06] when they are victims of other kinds of crimes, that they can go to law enforcement, that they’re safe right now. There’s an, there is an incredible amount of fear. It’s having economic impacts, it’s making groceries cost more for everyone when agricultural workers don’t show up to the fields.
[00:10:19] it’s also,having a huge impact on the church. I mean, I had,dinner with friends who told me that their churches actually basically dissolved because it was a small Spanish speaking church and people are afraid to come and no one was showing up because of an atmosphere of fear. Right now in the community where I live.
[00:10:35] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So you mentioned, visa status and for a lot of people we just think, “oh, you have a visa, or you don’t,” and it’s very black and white. But just in a simple search. I found 18 different kinds of visas. Is there a way to package an understanding of the visas temporary green card path, all of those things during this simple podcast, Matthew?
[00:11:10] Matthew Soerens: Um, probably not. It is too complex to do in a simple podcast, but you, I think to even underscore that complexity, it is sort of an alphabet soup. There’s all different letters assigned to visas and there is as at least as many visas as there are letters of the alphabet. You have temporary visas, you have immigrant visas, which are to long-term live in a country.
[00:11:30] You also have temporary protected status, or symptoms as TPS, which is not technically a visa, but it’s under, it is a legal protection that Congress created and that the Department of Homeland Security can grant. And what we’re seeing right now is it can also withdraw. So you know this question of is this person here lawfully or not?
[00:11:48] Might seem like a simple question. When I worked as a legal counselor, some of my job was helping people figure out the answer to that question for their own situation. You know, because they had come in on this visa, they were trying to figure out how do I stay within the terms of this visa. I mean immigration law, this is maybe a helpful example, is similarly complex to tax law.
[00:12:06] And then you have people trying to understand it usually in a foreign language. And so you have people who are doing their best to do everything to comply with the law, who are sometimes not sure if they actually are complying with the law or they always have been complying with the law, and then a policy changes and suddenly they are here out of status.
[00:12:24] They’re unlawfully present literally with the stroke of a pen. Though they didn’t do anything, it’s just a policy change on them. We’ve seen this recently with a lot of Afghans and Haitians and Venezuelans and certain other nationalities who had, a temporary protected status or humanitarian parole protection that has been withdrawn and they went from working lawfully with a valid social security number to now they’re being told they can’t work lawfully and they’re being told to go back to their countries of origin.
[00:12:50] But if your country of origin is Afghanistan. For especially for example, if you came because you served the US military, or you came because you were a Christian, to go back to the Taliban in Afghanistan could be a death sentence.
[00:13:03] Sandie Morgan: Oh my goodness. And if you’re a girl, I mean this is the Global Center for Women and Justice, this is just unthinkable for women.
[00:13:12] Matthew Soerens: Unfortunately, there are few places in the world that’s terrible to be a girl as Afghanistan right now, and that is particularly why our government gave humanitarian parole to certain women and girls to come. But if we, then we as our governments have revoked that status and literally the letters that people have received are very stark.
[00:13:28] They say, “we will find you. If you do not self deport, you will face prosecution fines or deportation back to your country of origin.” And I mean, people are very much living in fear right now who are in that situation. Again, that’s Afghanistan. But it’s also, I mean, the situation in Haiti right now is a country where world relief operates and it’s a very stark,reality on the ground in Haiti.
[00:13:50] I mean, literally you have Haitians who have been told their temporary protective status is being withdrawn, they should self deport or their humanitarian parole has been withdrawn. To self deport would presumably mean book yourself a plane ticket. Well, the FAA tells American Airlines that they cannot fly to the Port of Prince Airport because it is too violent.
[00:14:07] So like this is the level of violence on the ground according to one part of our government. The State Department tells us citizens under no circumstance should travel to Haiti right now. And yet we’re telling literally hundreds of thousands of Hatians who came in lawfully through airports. Sponsored by family members or church groups that they need to return to their countries of or to their country of origin.
[00:14:28] And it’s a really stark situation. And then again, if they stay here outside of the law, they’re afraid of law enforcement in many cases. And that puts them in that vulnerability, where when an employer is not following the law, when they’re subjecting them to a situation that might even rise to the level of labor trafficking, they often feel that they can’t complain about that.
[00:14:49] Sandie Morgan: Which then that ends up being in a space where they become more vulnerable to coercion and having to do things that, under, not more than just simply a threat, but the cloud that they are living in. Other ways that people lose their status. I was on a call recently with, our embassy in Madrid, our students did a study abroad there in May, and so we did a, follow up zoom meeting and I got to meet with quite a few young people who had come here on a J one Visa. And some people had said to me, but what if they come and they stay? And if somebody overstays that visa, then that does put them out of status. And there are problems with that, but those visas are about building relationships that will go on. And our college students, our high school students report having relationships that eventually lead to opportunities for collaboration internationally. How many of your students, well you’re not teaching here, but I am. And my students go and get an international relations masters. They go into foreign affairs. So those experiences develop relationships that are necessary for our future as a nation. There are a lot of visas that are ways people exchange content, information, labor, short term, and I know that it can be complicated, but let’s just look at the categories for a minute.
[00:16:50] The first, there’s a visitor visa. And people get a visa to come. It’s not easy to get a visa to visit the US.
[00:16:59] Matthew Soerens: Not if you’re coming from what’s not a, a similarly wealthy country, so if you’re from Europe, it probably is easy if you’re from Australia or you know Japan. If you’re from basically anywhere in Africa or most of Latin America or any country where your earnings potential for an hour of work are way more than the United States than they would be in your country of origin.
[00:17:21] The presumption is that, of our government, is that you would overstay your visa for sort of rational economic reasons, and so you’ll be denied that towards Visa most of the time.
[00:17:31] Sandie Morgan: and I already talked about student and exchange visas, but what about the temporary work visa? This really came up in that letter from our California legislators. They want more H two Bs and so on. So what is that category?
[00:17:49] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, so temporary work visas are specific to agriculture, and H twos are often more, other sectors of the economy. the large majority of temporary work visas are either for agriculture or for highly skilled work. So for example, tech visas and then when you. For some folks that is exactly what they want.
[00:18:09] ’cause they want to come for a season, work in the United States, and then go back to their country of origin. I think one of the challenges of our immigration system, and this isn’t new, this is decades, decades old within the laws, that if our Congress hasn’t updated in many decades, is that. When you come to an immigrant visa, meaning a visa to actually come to the United States and live and work permanently, there are basically not a category for immigrant visas that are employer sponsored for those who are not classified as highly skilled.
[00:18:38] So if you are gonna come and do agricultural work, or you’re going to come and work in the back of a restaurant or work in construction. Maybe you could get a family based immigrant visa. Maybe you qualify because you fled persecution as a refugee, a very small number of people might win a lottery that is specific to individuals from certain countries, not Mexico, not some of the countries that send the most immigrants.
[00:18:58] But if you are primarily coming for work, which is actually a major reason that people want to come to the United States and you are gonna work in what’s not classified as a highly skilled role, you’re limited to those temporary work visas. Even those are very limited, and that’s what these law makers are, are speaking to there.
[00:19:14] There’s not enough of them. But then you have the challenge of there’s people who really want an immigrant visa because they want to come in and build their life in the United States, but that’s not available. Some of those people overstay their visas and,join that category of people who have no legal status.
[00:19:29] And again, I’m not condoning that, but I, I think we ought to recognize that a better system would say if we have a long-term labor need in the United States, why wouldn’t we have a process where that person could apply for an immigrant visa to stay lawfully when that is what they want to do and is what their employer wants them to do and, and actually meet the a labor need in the United States as well.
[00:19:49] And when they do that, then they have the same rights as an American citizen in terms of labor law. Whereas if they are dependent upon their employer for that visa, sometimes they are in in some vulnerable situation if the employer doesn’t happen to be scrupulous. And plenty of employers are very scrupulous, but not all of them are.
[00:20:07] Sandie Morgan: But let’s talk about that for just a minute. That, employer who’s not scrupulous, because this is a scenario that is connected to labor trafficking that I have heard over and over again. Where they didn’t file the necessary, meaning the corporation. the employer did not file the necessary extension ’cause they still need the labor.
[00:20:31] Now, the labor is out of status and vulnerable. Coercion becomes a way to underpay overwork, um, put their kids at risk as well. I’ve talked to teenage girls three or four times who were coerced because if you don’t do this, I’m going to report your father.
[00:20:55] Matthew Soerens: That’s right.
[00:20:56] Sandie Morgan: And so the connection to risk for and vulnerability to human trafficking is very real right here in my backyard.
[00:21:05] Matthew Soerens: Absolutely, and, and it is in probably uniquely in a place with a large number of immigrants like Southern California. But this is a dynamic that happens in rural parts of the United States with you wouldn’t realize how many immigrants are there on serving on farms, and meat packing. And again, I don’t want to cast a broad stroke ’cause there’s lots of really good employers who are treating their workers fairly and doing their best with a very dysfunctional system.
[00:21:27] But there are always going to be people who will take advantage of people who are vulnerable. and that is where we see these situations of labor trafficking arise. And it is why among victims of labor trafficking in the United States, there’s a lot of evidence that immigrants are disproportionately victims and in fact, unauthorized immigrants, those who’ve lost their status or who maybe never had status are uniquely, likely, to be victims in that situation.
[00:21:53] Now, some would say, well, the solution to that is likely let’s not have any immigrants. Actually we have a lot of labor needs that immigrants are, can play a key role in. I think the challenge is not that they’re immigrants, it’s that because of their legal vulnerabilities, they are uniquely vulnerable to trafficking.
[00:22:07] If they had the same rights to speak up if they’re being mistreated or exploited, that would largely resolve the challenge. And I think that’s what we’ve always advocated for at world Relief.
[00:22:17] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So we could spend, hours and hours in this space on visas, but. but we understand that. It may at times increase an entire family’s vulnerability to coercion and ultimately to some form of human trafficking. So Matthew, this is depressing and I need something to do about it.
[00:22:47] And I have people who call me and say, what can we do? And I think you have, opportunities for people to understand better, and we don’t even need to be experts on human rights. We just need to recognize the centrality of human dignity and I can do something for my fellow human being.
[00:23:13] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. I so appreciate that, Sandie. ’cause there are policies that are very dysfunctional and we can dwell on those all day and it’s important to be aware of them. We don’t help anyone, by ignoring the realities, but there’s also are ways that we can respond. some of that is at the local relational level, like get to know the immigrants in your community, not with the presumption that they’re all victims of trafficking ’cause they’re not, but when someone is in a hard spot, when you have a relationship where they feel safe to ask you, what can I do? It can be an incredibly important, way to serve. And then some of the challenges are systemic, and that’s the blessing of living in a democratic form of government, is we can speak into how those policies and systems work and to be really clear at world relief.
[00:23:55] We’re not. Partisan organization will never hear us saying, vote for Republicans or vote for Democrats, or, you know, that sort of thing. But we do wanna invite Republicans and Democrats and anyone else, in positions of authority to pursue policies that recognize the dignity of all human beings, um, rooted in that biblical principle, that affirmed the rule of law.
[00:24:16] And, one of the hard realities is that when the rule of law is not functioning well, people become vulnerable, that also affirmed the dignity and the unity of the family. there’s almost no one more vulnerable to human trafficking than a child who’s on their own. And that’s why laws like the Trafficking Victims Protection Act and the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act,rightly. Treat children who are on their own distinctly from other categories of people.
[00:24:3 Recognizing the unique vulnerabilities. And even now, there’s some concerns that I have with some of the legislation that’s passed recently that could undermine, some of those important laws, protections for unaccompanied children.
[00:24:50] But the way we do that is we reach out to our members of Congress, who are US representatives to our senators at the state level as well, to legislators. and we try world relief and we work with partners, through the evangelical immigration table to. Point people to resources to make it very easy to advocate.
[00:25:05] Uh, people can do their own homework on what, policies they wanna support. But,we try to really stay on top of what’s being proposed in Washington and look at these policy proposals from a human dignity perspective. It’s doesn’t start with one party or the other, but starts with the presumption that all people are made in the image of God.
[00:25:21] And, There’s no perfect legislation, but we really think that our country can do better with a particular concern for those who are vulnerable. And, in the scriptures, which are our motivation at world relief, it’s the orphan, the widow, and the foreigner, which happen to be groups of people who today are still vulnerable and vulnerable to some of these dynamics of human trafficking that unfortunately are very real reality in the United States and around the world.
[00:25:41] I mean, when I say that migrants are uniquely vulnerable. I don’t just meet in the United States. I mean, it’s the central American migrant making their way through Mexico trying to find a safe place to be who was often at the most risk without legal protection and we see that in various parts of the world, unfortunately.
[00:25:57]Sandie Morgan: So how do you suggest that we contribute to changing the conversation?
[00:26:16] Matthew Soerens: You know, one thing that we’re really passionate about at World Relief, I know you’ve got listeners across a lot broad spectrum of backgrounds, but we are really focused on the church and how do we help the church to be a part of responding to these dynamics? And a, a major starting point there is just talking about the realities of people who are vulnerable from a biblical perspective.
[00:26:26] I think I grew up in a wonderful church. I’m really thankful for the church that I grew up in. It taught me to love the Bible, but somehow I spent the first half of my life in church and yet I missed that. The Bible spoke to concerns of immigration, even though the Bible actually has so much to say on that topic.
[00:26:41] But it just somehow, it didn’t seem like a central focus or something that I realized had a connection to my everyday life, and I think that’s a place, you know, in churches. To start with a discipleship process of how do we think about these issues in ways that are rooted in, not in one political party’s perspective or the other ’cause that’s the, the policies matter.
[00:27:02] But if we start with partisanship on one side or the other, we’re, we’re not starting in the right place, but starting with God’s word, which in the very beginning starts with people being made in the image of God. And you know, what we’ve seen over decades at World Relief is that people who are trying to live out their faith.
[00:27:17] And loving their neighbors, they can play such a vital role in being in relationship with people who have been in vulnerable situations and may still be in vulnerable situations. That’s, I think for me, what gives me a lot of hope is I see more and more churches leaning into that conversation and saying, what can we do in the midst of a tense time in our country to actually love our neighbors in practical ways?
[00:27:38] Sandie Morgan: I think I’m going to recommend to some of our small group leaders that they listen to this podcast and not to find answers, but to begin to formulate their own questions and what it looks like in their community. I talk to one of our adjunct professors this week. As the holiday, I live in Santa Ana, which has a very high Hispanic population. Our federal building is less than two miles from my front door where we have National Guard presence that makes holiday times a little different than we’ve had in the past. And one of the concerns that the letter. That we talked about brings up is people being afraid to go out. And so we know they’re not going to work, they’re not getting paid, and now how do they feed their family?
[00:28:38] And so the food bank, other nonprofits, the civil society organization, the churches, they all step up and they have bags of food ready and no one comes. So we change how we do that and we go pick it up and we take it to them right where they are. I want people to start looking, in your neighborhood to find out who is doing this well from the perspective of caring for your neighbor, whether they are foreigners, orphans and widows unaccompanied children.
[00:29:20] I love that you say unaccompanied children instead of minors. They’re not just a number, and they are found in labor trafficking situations, 20 minutes from my house, trimming boneless chicken breasts and things like that. So this is part of our community, not just in wealthy California, but across our nation. Matthew, final remarks from you. What do you want us to remember about this conversation?
[00:29:59] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. You know, I so value this conversation, Sandie, and I think there’s so many people who are appropriately really passionate about combating human trafficking and I think that’s so vital that people of all backgrounds, but especially again, I think the church needs to lead on that. I think sometimes we’ve missed how connected that issue of trafficking is to the vulnerability of immigration.
[00:30:20] And it just doesn’t, it’s incoherent to say I’m passionate about helping people be free from human trafficking, but I hate immigrants. Like, that doesn’t make any sense because so often the people you’re talking about who are victims of human trafficking are immigrants. you know, and again, for a Christian, our faith compels us to love our neighbor.
[00:30:39] And not only the neighbors who have always followed the law perfectly, which would be probably none of us. but, All people who are made in God’s image. And that doesn’t mean that we can’t find better, that there’s not a place for government to do its job as well. We can affirm that. But even in that, to ask our government to treat people humanely, to use discernment as these lawmakers in California are asking that there’s a difference between someone who’s committed a violent crime and someone who’s only illegal offense was they overstayed a visa 40 years ago.
[00:31:04] Uh, we can treat people. Take into account those different circumstances. Maybe a fine is appropriate Foraying a Visa 40 years ago, whereas, you know, detention is appropriate for someone who, who’s a public safety threat.
[00:31:17] Sandie Morgan: So, point is to some resources.
[00:31:22] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. You know, we’ve done a lot at World Relief to really equip everyday citizens, but also churches to think about these issues, in both fact-based ways. And for those of us who are following Jesus in biblically informed ways. So worldrelief.org, we have a whole bunch of resources for pastors, for lay people, and then opportunities to volunteer with refugees and immigrants in various communities around the United States, and to provide financial support to those who are doing this work as well
[00:31:44] I think is especially important right now at a time when there’s been,a lot less in terms of governmental support,for vulnerable immigrants and to do so around the world as well. Because again, these are not just US dynamics, these are global dynamics.
[00:31:58] Sandie Morgan: I appreciate that so much. I also, because I’ve spent time working with world relief, I recognize and value how it doesn’t matter where someone’s faith tradition is, they get the same kind of support that is appropriate to their faith tradition. And that is an element for all of us to emulate as we recognize human dignity.
[00:32:29] Matthew Soerens: Yes, absolutely. We are Christians. That’s what motivates us at World relief. But we serve people across a broad range of backgrounds. Those who share may share our faith. Those who come from a different religious tradition, and we believe they’re every one of them made an image of God and a neighbor whom we’re called to love.
[00:32:42] Sandie Morgan: We have enjoyed this conversation very much and it won’t be our last, we’ll put a link to the last time we had a conversation a couple years ago and we’ll make sure that we put you on the roster for when we move to YouTube soon. So thank you so much, Matthew.
[00:33:01] Matthew Soerens: Thanks, Sandie. Appreciate all the great work that you all do.
[00:33:04] Sandie Morgan: Thanks.
[00:33:04] Listeners, thank you for joining this important conversation. If you want to hear more from Matthew, be sure to check out the show notes @endinghumantrafficking.org. We’ve included a link to his book as well as his. Previous episode on our podcast. If you haven’t visited our site before, be sure to subscribe.
[00:33:30] That will keep you up to date on all of our episodes. And one more thing, will you help us grow? Join us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And if you know someone who would benefit from today’s conversation, invite them to subscribe and join us in learning how to be part of ending modern day slavery and human trafficking.
[00:33:57] Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.
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Matthew Soerens joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the intersection of immigration policy and human trafficking, exploring how vulnerable immigration status increases the risk of exploitation and trafficking.
Matthew Soerens is vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis.
[00:00:03] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 350. I am Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we help you study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.
[00:00:29] Today we are joined by Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a. Biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis.
[00:01:06] Sandie Morgan: I’m really happy to Welcome back to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief.
[00:01:19] Welcome back, Matthew. So glad
[00:01:20] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, so glad to be with you again, Sandie
[00:01:22] Sandie Morgan: we have a lot to talk about. First of all, tell us,briefly, what does world relief do,
[00:01:30] Matthew Soerens: World Relief is a global Christian humanitarian organization that,has existed for about 80 years. Our mission is to boldly engage the world’s greatest crises in partnership with the church. And, and right now as we look at. Crises around the world, we see displacement people being forced to flee from their homes and from their countries.
[00:01:48] In many cases, as really near the top of the list of global crises. It’s also a global crisis, of course, that intersects in many situations with challenges of human trafficking. So this is an issue we carry a great deal about both in the United States and around the world.
[00:02:03] Sandie Morgan: All right. And from the perspective of human trafficking, this is the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. There are several elements in our discussion today that we wanna clarify. First is the difference between smuggling and trafficking. Can you do that in 25 words?
[00:02:25] Matthew Soerens: Sure. I think so. I mean, trafficking under US law is when people are made to work under forced fraud or coercion, whether it’s sex trafficking or labor trafficking. Smuggling is when someone is brought across the border against the law. Now those things can be related. People who are smuggled could also be being trafficked, but they’re not the same thing.
[00:02:43] And I think the risk of. Conflating those terms is that we think of trafficking sometimes as something that happens at the border when actually trafficking can happen anywhere in the world, and it can happen to immigrants and sometimes they’re uniquely vulnerable. But it also can happen to American citizens.
[00:02:58] It can happen within a country. It can happen with people who are outside of their country. And I do think that distinction sometimes gets conflated in some of the political dialogue in some unhelpful ways.
[00:03:07] Sandie Morgan: All right. And,that’s really helpful for our listeners who live along the borders here in the US and beyond. I was in Madrid, in May, in Greece in February, and this issue of smuggling and trafficking being conflated is a. Constant challenge to overcome. Now, you mentioned the issues of fraud and coercion, and people in migrant status often have driving forces that increase their vulnerability. So can you talk about what that looks like right now from a global crisis perspective?
[00:03:52] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, I think one of the reasons we see that people who are migrant or refugees or asylum seekers, these various legal, statuses for people who have fled their homes. Are vulnerable to human trafficking is precisely that they are in a different cultural setting where they don’t know the rules, they don’t know their rights under the law, or what the laws are.
[00:04:11] In some cases, and depending on what their legal status in terms of migration is, that can create further reasons that they’re suspicious of law enforcement. So they may feel like they can’t report if they’re being forced or coerced. Into a work situation where they’re not being paid or they’re being paid less than they should or even into situations of, sexual trafficking.
[00:04:33] And so we often find that,immigrants of various kinds are uniquely vulnerable to situations of human trafficking. And the less legal protections that they have, wherever they happen to be, the more vulnerable they are, the less likely they are to speak up, to know that they can go and ask for help when they’re being mistreated and, and exploited.
[00:04:52] Sandie Morgan: I quit counting a long time ago. How many frontline service professionals like yourself have told me? Victims didn’t even know they were victims. They often felt like they made a poor decision. but because of their desperation, the risk element, we misunderstand that I am measuring risk. By sitting in my air conditioned home with two cars in the driveway. somebody else is measuring risk by, I don’t know how I’m going to feed my children or where we are going to sleep tonight. So,
[00:05:33] Matthew Soerens: And if I make you know, the wrong decision, do I end up in an even more vulnerable situation back in a country where I was being persecuted or where someone was out to get me? And those are the, the stresses that weigh on people in some cases as they assess what their options are.
[00:05:51] Sandie Morgan: Absolutely. Okay, so right now in the US we are reevaluating a lot of our immigration policies, and some of it has had unintended consequence. And so one of the things that happened just last week. Is from my state in California. Six of our Republican legislators wrote a letter to ask that we be a little more concerned about how we. Implementing some of those policies and I’ll put a link to the letter in our show notes. But Matthew, do you want to give us some background and your perspective on what this means moving forward?
[00:06:46] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, I was encouraged to see this letter. I think it’s responding to something that we’ve said at World Relief, which is we actually really want our federal government to have a little bit of discernment between. Making sure that our government is doing its job and protecting the American population by removing people with due process and fair treatment.
[00:07:03] But people who have been convicted of violent crimes, who present the public safety threat,including those who would be committing human trafficking. We want our government to go after those people and prosecute those crimes. And if convicted of course, and if they’re eligible to, to deport people who’ve been, who are foreign nationals at this.
[00:07:21] What we’ve seen though is that. As there’s been a big push towards deportations, most of the people who are being detained have not been convicted of violent crimes. In fact, it’s only a very small share of those who are detained right now who have been convicted of violent crimes. It’s,a minority who’ve been of those detained, who’ve been convicted of any crime at all.
[00:07:40] And what we’ve seen is a great deal of fear among people who have not been convicted of any crime,but who are concerned about deportation or being detained or separated from their family. And again, that goes to this dynamic of vulnerability that when people feel vulnerable, they don’t wanna talk to the police even when they’re victims of crimes like trafficking.
[00:07:59] and so these,lawmakers there in the state of California. Basically ask the federal government, to use some discernment like yes, to go after those convicted of violent crimes, but not to be so broad in their immigration raids and sweeps that they’re picking up people who have not committed crimes and have not been convicted of crimes.
[00:08:16] And that’s consistent with what we’ve found at world relief most Evangelical Christians want to see as well. We don’t want immigrant communities, we don’t want immigrant churches. To be filled with fear but of course we do want people who have actually, done harm and are a public safety threat to face justice.
[00:08:31] Sandie Morgan: So, one quote from the letter says, the fear is driving vital workers out of critical industries. Taking California’s affordability crisis and making it even worse for our constituents. Matthew, how do we communicate The value that the immigrant labor force brings to us
[00:08:59] Matthew Soerens: I mean, I think in California is sort of a case study of this, but it’s true across the country. The reality is if you eat. You are benefiting from immigrants because immigrants play an enormous role in the agricultural sector in the United States. And again, a lot of that actually comes out of California, but other states as well.
[00:09:16] if you live in a home, there’s a pretty good chance that there are immigrants involved in the construction industry in many parts of the United States. And many of those people have legal status, but frankly, some of them don’t. Some of them came many years ago,overstate of visa or crossed the border unlawfully at a time when that was.
[00:09:31] Fairly easy to do 20, 30 years ago. And what we’ve said at World Relief is we we’re not condoning that violation of an immigration law many years ago, but we also are acknowledging that we have actually benefited from those folks hard work and that many of them are brothers and sisters in Christ.
[00:09:48] And we think that rather than a, a massive sweep that. Removes people after 20, 30 years from the country and separates them from US-born children. Uh, there ought to be a way for them to make things right. You know, whether that’s paying a fine or whatever that legal process would be, that would allow them to get right with the law and then have the confidence to know.
[00:10:06] when they are victims of other kinds of crimes, that they can go to law enforcement, that they’re safe right now. There’s an, there is an incredible amount of fear. It’s having economic impacts, it’s making groceries cost more for everyone when agricultural workers don’t show up to the fields.
[00:10:19] it’s also,having a huge impact on the church. I mean, I had,dinner with friends who told me that their churches actually basically dissolved because it was a small Spanish speaking church and people are afraid to come and no one was showing up because of an atmosphere of fear. Right now in the community where I live.
[00:10:35] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So you mentioned, visa status and for a lot of people we just think, “oh, you have a visa, or you don’t,” and it’s very black and white. But just in a simple search. I found 18 different kinds of visas. Is there a way to package an understanding of the visas temporary green card path, all of those things during this simple podcast, Matthew?
[00:11:10] Matthew Soerens: Um, probably not. It is too complex to do in a simple podcast, but you, I think to even underscore that complexity, it is sort of an alphabet soup. There’s all different letters assigned to visas and there is as at least as many visas as there are letters of the alphabet. You have temporary visas, you have immigrant visas, which are to long-term live in a country.
[00:11:30] You also have temporary protected status, or symptoms as TPS, which is not technically a visa, but it’s under, it is a legal protection that Congress created and that the Department of Homeland Security can grant. And what we’re seeing right now is it can also withdraw. So you know this question of is this person here lawfully or not?
[00:11:48] Might seem like a simple question. When I worked as a legal counselor, some of my job was helping people figure out the answer to that question for their own situation. You know, because they had come in on this visa, they were trying to figure out how do I stay within the terms of this visa. I mean immigration law, this is maybe a helpful example, is similarly complex to tax law.
[00:12:06] And then you have people trying to understand it usually in a foreign language. And so you have people who are doing their best to do everything to comply with the law, who are sometimes not sure if they actually are complying with the law or they always have been complying with the law, and then a policy changes and suddenly they are here out of status.
[00:12:24] They’re unlawfully present literally with the stroke of a pen. Though they didn’t do anything, it’s just a policy change on them. We’ve seen this recently with a lot of Afghans and Haitians and Venezuelans and certain other nationalities who had, a temporary protected status or humanitarian parole protection that has been withdrawn and they went from working lawfully with a valid social security number to now they’re being told they can’t work lawfully and they’re being told to go back to their countries of origin.
[00:12:50] But if your country of origin is Afghanistan. For especially for example, if you came because you served the US military, or you came because you were a Christian, to go back to the Taliban in Afghanistan could be a death sentence.
[00:13:03] Sandie Morgan: Oh my goodness. And if you’re a girl, I mean this is the Global Center for Women and Justice, this is just unthinkable for women.
[00:13:12] Matthew Soerens: Unfortunately, there are few places in the world that’s terrible to be a girl as Afghanistan right now, and that is particularly why our government gave humanitarian parole to certain women and girls to come. But if we, then we as our governments have revoked that status and literally the letters that people have received are very stark.
[00:13:28] They say, “we will find you. If you do not self deport, you will face prosecution fines or deportation back to your country of origin.” And I mean, people are very much living in fear right now who are in that situation. Again, that’s Afghanistan. But it’s also, I mean, the situation in Haiti right now is a country where world relief operates and it’s a very stark,reality on the ground in Haiti.
[00:13:50] I mean, literally you have Haitians who have been told their temporary protective status is being withdrawn, they should self deport or their humanitarian parole has been withdrawn. To self deport would presumably mean book yourself a plane ticket. Well, the FAA tells American Airlines that they cannot fly to the Port of Prince Airport because it is too violent.
[00:14:07] So like this is the level of violence on the ground according to one part of our government. The State Department tells us citizens under no circumstance should travel to Haiti right now. And yet we’re telling literally hundreds of thousands of Hatians who came in lawfully through airports. Sponsored by family members or church groups that they need to return to their countries of or to their country of origin.
[00:14:28] And it’s a really stark situation. And then again, if they stay here outside of the law, they’re afraid of law enforcement in many cases. And that puts them in that vulnerability, where when an employer is not following the law, when they’re subjecting them to a situation that might even rise to the level of labor trafficking, they often feel that they can’t complain about that.
[00:14:49] Sandie Morgan: Which then that ends up being in a space where they become more vulnerable to coercion and having to do things that, under, not more than just simply a threat, but the cloud that they are living in. Other ways that people lose their status. I was on a call recently with, our embassy in Madrid, our students did a study abroad there in May, and so we did a, follow up zoom meeting and I got to meet with quite a few young people who had come here on a J one Visa. And some people had said to me, but what if they come and they stay? And if somebody overstays that visa, then that does put them out of status. And there are problems with that, but those visas are about building relationships that will go on. And our college students, our high school students report having relationships that eventually lead to opportunities for collaboration internationally. How many of your students, well you’re not teaching here, but I am. And my students go and get an international relations masters. They go into foreign affairs. So those experiences develop relationships that are necessary for our future as a nation. There are a lot of visas that are ways people exchange content, information, labor, short term, and I know that it can be complicated, but let’s just look at the categories for a minute.
[00:16:50] The first, there’s a visitor visa. And people get a visa to come. It’s not easy to get a visa to visit the US.
[00:16:59] Matthew Soerens: Not if you’re coming from what’s not a, a similarly wealthy country, so if you’re from Europe, it probably is easy if you’re from Australia or you know Japan. If you’re from basically anywhere in Africa or most of Latin America or any country where your earnings potential for an hour of work are way more than the United States than they would be in your country of origin.
[00:17:21] The presumption is that, of our government, is that you would overstay your visa for sort of rational economic reasons, and so you’ll be denied that towards Visa most of the time.
[00:17:31] Sandie Morgan: and I already talked about student and exchange visas, but what about the temporary work visa? This really came up in that letter from our California legislators. They want more H two Bs and so on. So what is that category?
[00:17:49] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, so temporary work visas are specific to agriculture, and H twos are often more, other sectors of the economy. the large majority of temporary work visas are either for agriculture or for highly skilled work. So for example, tech visas and then when you. For some folks that is exactly what they want.
[00:18:09] ’cause they want to come for a season, work in the United States, and then go back to their country of origin. I think one of the challenges of our immigration system, and this isn’t new, this is decades, decades old within the laws, that if our Congress hasn’t updated in many decades, is that. When you come to an immigrant visa, meaning a visa to actually come to the United States and live and work permanently, there are basically not a category for immigrant visas that are employer sponsored for those who are not classified as highly skilled.
[00:18:38] So if you are gonna come and do agricultural work, or you’re going to come and work in the back of a restaurant or work in construction. Maybe you could get a family based immigrant visa. Maybe you qualify because you fled persecution as a refugee, a very small number of people might win a lottery that is specific to individuals from certain countries, not Mexico, not some of the countries that send the most immigrants.
[00:18:58] But if you are primarily coming for work, which is actually a major reason that people want to come to the United States and you are gonna work in what’s not classified as a highly skilled role, you’re limited to those temporary work visas. Even those are very limited, and that’s what these law makers are, are speaking to there.
[00:19:14] There’s not enough of them. But then you have the challenge of there’s people who really want an immigrant visa because they want to come in and build their life in the United States, but that’s not available. Some of those people overstay their visas and,join that category of people who have no legal status.
[00:19:29] And again, I’m not condoning that, but I, I think we ought to recognize that a better system would say if we have a long-term labor need in the United States, why wouldn’t we have a process where that person could apply for an immigrant visa to stay lawfully when that is what they want to do and is what their employer wants them to do and, and actually meet the a labor need in the United States as well.
[00:19:49] And when they do that, then they have the same rights as an American citizen in terms of labor law. Whereas if they are dependent upon their employer for that visa, sometimes they are in in some vulnerable situation if the employer doesn’t happen to be scrupulous. And plenty of employers are very scrupulous, but not all of them are.
[00:20:07] Sandie Morgan: But let’s talk about that for just a minute. That, employer who’s not scrupulous, because this is a scenario that is connected to labor trafficking that I have heard over and over again. Where they didn’t file the necessary, meaning the corporation. the employer did not file the necessary extension ’cause they still need the labor.
[00:20:31] Now, the labor is out of status and vulnerable. Coercion becomes a way to underpay overwork, um, put their kids at risk as well. I’ve talked to teenage girls three or four times who were coerced because if you don’t do this, I’m going to report your father.
[00:20:55] Matthew Soerens: That’s right.
[00:20:56] Sandie Morgan: And so the connection to risk for and vulnerability to human trafficking is very real right here in my backyard.
[00:21:05] Matthew Soerens: Absolutely, and, and it is in probably uniquely in a place with a large number of immigrants like Southern California. But this is a dynamic that happens in rural parts of the United States with you wouldn’t realize how many immigrants are there on serving on farms, and meat packing. And again, I don’t want to cast a broad stroke ’cause there’s lots of really good employers who are treating their workers fairly and doing their best with a very dysfunctional system.
[00:21:27] But there are always going to be people who will take advantage of people who are vulnerable. and that is where we see these situations of labor trafficking arise. And it is why among victims of labor trafficking in the United States, there’s a lot of evidence that immigrants are disproportionately victims and in fact, unauthorized immigrants, those who’ve lost their status or who maybe never had status are uniquely, likely, to be victims in that situation.
[00:21:53] Now, some would say, well, the solution to that is likely let’s not have any immigrants. Actually we have a lot of labor needs that immigrants are, can play a key role in. I think the challenge is not that they’re immigrants, it’s that because of their legal vulnerabilities, they are uniquely vulnerable to trafficking.
[00:22:07] If they had the same rights to speak up if they’re being mistreated or exploited, that would largely resolve the challenge. And I think that’s what we’ve always advocated for at world Relief.
[00:22:17] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So we could spend, hours and hours in this space on visas, but. but we understand that. It may at times increase an entire family’s vulnerability to coercion and ultimately to some form of human trafficking. So Matthew, this is depressing and I need something to do about it.
[00:22:47] And I have people who call me and say, what can we do? And I think you have, opportunities for people to understand better, and we don’t even need to be experts on human rights. We just need to recognize the centrality of human dignity and I can do something for my fellow human being.
[00:23:13] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. I so appreciate that, Sandie. ’cause there are policies that are very dysfunctional and we can dwell on those all day and it’s important to be aware of them. We don’t help anyone, by ignoring the realities, but there’s also are ways that we can respond. some of that is at the local relational level, like get to know the immigrants in your community, not with the presumption that they’re all victims of trafficking ’cause they’re not, but when someone is in a hard spot, when you have a relationship where they feel safe to ask you, what can I do? It can be an incredibly important, way to serve. And then some of the challenges are systemic, and that’s the blessing of living in a democratic form of government, is we can speak into how those policies and systems work and to be really clear at world relief.
[00:23:55] We’re not. Partisan organization will never hear us saying, vote for Republicans or vote for Democrats, or, you know, that sort of thing. But we do wanna invite Republicans and Democrats and anyone else, in positions of authority to pursue policies that recognize the dignity of all human beings, um, rooted in that biblical principle, that affirmed the rule of law.
[00:24:16] And, one of the hard realities is that when the rule of law is not functioning well, people become vulnerable, that also affirmed the dignity and the unity of the family. there’s almost no one more vulnerable to human trafficking than a child who’s on their own. And that’s why laws like the Trafficking Victims Protection Act and the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act,rightly. Treat children who are on their own distinctly from other categories of people.
[00:24:3 Recognizing the unique vulnerabilities. And even now, there’s some concerns that I have with some of the legislation that’s passed recently that could undermine, some of those important laws, protections for unaccompanied children.
[00:24:50] But the way we do that is we reach out to our members of Congress, who are US representatives to our senators at the state level as well, to legislators. and we try world relief and we work with partners, through the evangelical immigration table to. Point people to resources to make it very easy to advocate.
[00:25:05] Uh, people can do their own homework on what, policies they wanna support. But,we try to really stay on top of what’s being proposed in Washington and look at these policy proposals from a human dignity perspective. It’s doesn’t start with one party or the other, but starts with the presumption that all people are made in the image of God.
[00:25:21] And, There’s no perfect legislation, but we really think that our country can do better with a particular concern for those who are vulnerable. And, in the scriptures, which are our motivation at world relief, it’s the orphan, the widow, and the foreigner, which happen to be groups of people who today are still vulnerable and vulnerable to some of these dynamics of human trafficking that unfortunately are very real reality in the United States and around the world.
[00:25:41] I mean, when I say that migrants are uniquely vulnerable. I don’t just meet in the United States. I mean, it’s the central American migrant making their way through Mexico trying to find a safe place to be who was often at the most risk without legal protection and we see that in various parts of the world, unfortunately.
[00:25:57]Sandie Morgan: So how do you suggest that we contribute to changing the conversation?
[00:26:16] Matthew Soerens: You know, one thing that we’re really passionate about at World Relief, I know you’ve got listeners across a lot broad spectrum of backgrounds, but we are really focused on the church and how do we help the church to be a part of responding to these dynamics? And a, a major starting point there is just talking about the realities of people who are vulnerable from a biblical perspective.
[00:26:26] I think I grew up in a wonderful church. I’m really thankful for the church that I grew up in. It taught me to love the Bible, but somehow I spent the first half of my life in church and yet I missed that. The Bible spoke to concerns of immigration, even though the Bible actually has so much to say on that topic.
[00:26:41] But it just somehow, it didn’t seem like a central focus or something that I realized had a connection to my everyday life, and I think that’s a place, you know, in churches. To start with a discipleship process of how do we think about these issues in ways that are rooted in, not in one political party’s perspective or the other ’cause that’s the, the policies matter.
[00:27:02] But if we start with partisanship on one side or the other, we’re, we’re not starting in the right place, but starting with God’s word, which in the very beginning starts with people being made in the image of God. And you know, what we’ve seen over decades at World Relief is that people who are trying to live out their faith.
[00:27:17] And loving their neighbors, they can play such a vital role in being in relationship with people who have been in vulnerable situations and may still be in vulnerable situations. That’s, I think for me, what gives me a lot of hope is I see more and more churches leaning into that conversation and saying, what can we do in the midst of a tense time in our country to actually love our neighbors in practical ways?
[00:27:38] Sandie Morgan: I think I’m going to recommend to some of our small group leaders that they listen to this podcast and not to find answers, but to begin to formulate their own questions and what it looks like in their community. I talk to one of our adjunct professors this week. As the holiday, I live in Santa Ana, which has a very high Hispanic population. Our federal building is less than two miles from my front door where we have National Guard presence that makes holiday times a little different than we’ve had in the past. And one of the concerns that the letter. That we talked about brings up is people being afraid to go out. And so we know they’re not going to work, they’re not getting paid, and now how do they feed their family?
[00:28:38] And so the food bank, other nonprofits, the civil society organization, the churches, they all step up and they have bags of food ready and no one comes. So we change how we do that and we go pick it up and we take it to them right where they are. I want people to start looking, in your neighborhood to find out who is doing this well from the perspective of caring for your neighbor, whether they are foreigners, orphans and widows unaccompanied children.
[00:29:20] I love that you say unaccompanied children instead of minors. They’re not just a number, and they are found in labor trafficking situations, 20 minutes from my house, trimming boneless chicken breasts and things like that. So this is part of our community, not just in wealthy California, but across our nation. Matthew, final remarks from you. What do you want us to remember about this conversation?
[00:29:59] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. You know, I so value this conversation, Sandie, and I think there’s so many people who are appropriately really passionate about combating human trafficking and I think that’s so vital that people of all backgrounds, but especially again, I think the church needs to lead on that. I think sometimes we’ve missed how connected that issue of trafficking is to the vulnerability of immigration.
[00:30:20] And it just doesn’t, it’s incoherent to say I’m passionate about helping people be free from human trafficking, but I hate immigrants. Like, that doesn’t make any sense because so often the people you’re talking about who are victims of human trafficking are immigrants. you know, and again, for a Christian, our faith compels us to love our neighbor.
[00:30:39] And not only the neighbors who have always followed the law perfectly, which would be probably none of us. but, All people who are made in God’s image. And that doesn’t mean that we can’t find better, that there’s not a place for government to do its job as well. We can affirm that. But even in that, to ask our government to treat people humanely, to use discernment as these lawmakers in California are asking that there’s a difference between someone who’s committed a violent crime and someone who’s only illegal offense was they overstayed a visa 40 years ago.
[00:31:04] Uh, we can treat people. Take into account those different circumstances. Maybe a fine is appropriate Foraying a Visa 40 years ago, whereas, you know, detention is appropriate for someone who, who’s a public safety threat.
[00:31:17] Sandie Morgan: So, point is to some resources.
[00:31:22] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. You know, we’ve done a lot at World Relief to really equip everyday citizens, but also churches to think about these issues, in both fact-based ways. And for those of us who are following Jesus in biblically informed ways. So worldrelief.org, we have a whole bunch of resources for pastors, for lay people, and then opportunities to volunteer with refugees and immigrants in various communities around the United States, and to provide financial support to those who are doing this work as well
[00:31:44] I think is especially important right now at a time when there’s been,a lot less in terms of governmental support,for vulnerable immigrants and to do so around the world as well. Because again, these are not just US dynamics, these are global dynamics.
[00:31:58] Sandie Morgan: I appreciate that so much. I also, because I’ve spent time working with world relief, I recognize and value how it doesn’t matter where someone’s faith tradition is, they get the same kind of support that is appropriate to their faith tradition. And that is an element for all of us to emulate as we recognize human dignity.
[00:32:29] Matthew Soerens: Yes, absolutely. We are Christians. That’s what motivates us at World relief. But we serve people across a broad range of backgrounds. Those who share may share our faith. Those who come from a different religious tradition, and we believe they’re every one of them made an image of God and a neighbor whom we’re called to love.
[00:32:42] Sandie Morgan: We have enjoyed this conversation very much and it won’t be our last, we’ll put a link to the last time we had a conversation a couple years ago and we’ll make sure that we put you on the roster for when we move to YouTube soon. So thank you so much, Matthew.
[00:33:01] Matthew Soerens: Thanks, Sandie. Appreciate all the great work that you all do.
[00:33:04] Sandie Morgan: Thanks.
[00:33:04] Listeners, thank you for joining this important conversation. If you want to hear more from Matthew, be sure to check out the show notes @endinghumantrafficking.org. We’ve included a link to his book as well as his. Previous episode on our podcast. If you haven’t visited our site before, be sure to subscribe.
[00:33:30] That will keep you up to date on all of our episodes. And one more thing, will you help us grow? Join us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And if you know someone who would benefit from today’s conversation, invite them to subscribe and join us in learning how to be part of ending modern day slavery and human trafficking.
[00:33:57] Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.
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