In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes back Rick Doblin, Ph.D., Founder and President of MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), for a deeply personal and visionary conversation on the recent FDA rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy.

Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-306/?ref=278

Rick opens up about the painful setbacks, internal missteps, and his own process of recovery and renewed hope. He explains why this isn’t the end—but a critical turning point for psychedelic medicine.

Rick and Paul unpack the nuances of drug plus therapy, exploring why context, integration, and culture matter as much as pharmacology. They reflect on the future of MAPS, the psychedelic renaissance beyond FDA approval, and how business, politics, and spirituality intersect with healing. The episode also explores Rick’s enduring belief in public benefit models, global collaboration, and the potential of a spiritualized humanity.

Rick Doblin, Ph.D., is the Founder and President of MAPS. He received his doctorate in Public Policy from Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, and has spent nearly four decades advancing the safe and legal use of psychedelics and marijuana through science, education, and advocacy.

Highlights:

• The cost of MAPS' quiet period
• Why MDMA therapy was rejected by FDA
• Pharma vs. therapy: What’s best for patients?
• Drug-only treatments vs. integrated therapy
• Ibogaine’s role in brain healing and PTSD
• MAPS’ path forward: Phase 4 vs. Phase 3
• What the Dutch got right about MDMA
• Spiritualized humanity and self-transcendence
• The global impact of MAPS’ work
• Business, love, and psychedelic ethics

Want to attend this year’s Psychedelic Science 2025 Conference? For our community: Use code THIRDWAVE15 for 15% off registration. Learn more and register at psychedelicscience.org — See you there!

Episode Links

• Psychedelic Science 2025 Conference
• MAPS Website
• Psychedelic Science on Instagram
• MAPS on Instagram
• Psychedelic Science on LinkedIn
• MAPS on LinkedIn
• Psychedelic Science on X

Episode Sponsors:

• Golden Rule Mushrooms - Get a lifetime discount of 10% with code THIRDWAVE at checkout
• Psychedelic Coacing Isntitute's Intensive for Psychedelic Professionals in Costa Rica - a transformative retreat for personal and professional growth.

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes Bryan Hubbard, a prominent advocate for psychedelic-assisted therapies, particularly ibogaine in the treatment of opioid addiction and mental health disorders. 

Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-305/?ref=278

Update (May 2025): Days before this episode's release, the Texas House approved a Senate-backed bill to fund ibogaine research through a public-private partnership aimed at securing FDA approval. This vote marks a major milestone in the movement Bryan describes throughout this conversation.

Bryan shares his journey from leading Kentucky's Opioid Abatement Advisory Commission to spearheading breakthrough ibogaine research initiatives in Texas. He articulates ibogaine's unique neurological properties, discussing how it can reset brain neurochemistry in 36 hours and potentially treat conditions from traumatic brain injury to Parkinson's disease. The conversation explores the spiritual dimensions of ibogaine experiences, the political landscape surrounding psychedelic medicine, and Bryan's ongoing efforts to medicalize ibogaine through FDA drug development trials, highlighting Texas as the next frontier for this life-saving research.

W. Bryan Hubbard is the Executive Director of the American Ibogaine Initiative. He is the first and former Chairman and Executive Director of the Kentucky Opioid Abatement Advisory Commission. He concurrently served as Special Counsel to the Kentucky Attorney General’s Office of Medicaid Fraud and Abuse Control and was its prior Executive Director. He served on the Kentucky Judicial Commission on Mental Health, the Kentucky Child Support Guidelines Commission, Mine Safety Review Board, and the Kentucky Office of Drug Control Policy’s Recovery Ready Communities Advisory Council. He previously served as Commissioner of the Kentucky Department of Income Support wherein he led the Commonwealth’s Social Security Disability and Child Support Enforcement systems. He practiced workers’ compensation law representing Walmart, Tyson Foods, and Tennessee Valley Authority for sixteen years. During his practice years, he observed the predacious onset of Kentucky’s Opioid Epidemic amid generational joblessness, poverty, disability, and substance use. He was raised in Virginia’s coalfields and is the proud grandson of two grade-school educated coal miners on whose shoulders he stands.

Highlights:

• Why ibogaine interrupts addiction instantly
• The Stanford study that changed everything
• Resetting brain neurochemistry in 36 hours
• From Parkinson's to PTSD: Ibogaine's broad applications
• The spiritual awakening dimension of treatment
• How pharmaceutical interests block breakthrough medicine
• Kentucky's lost opportunity: $42 million for research
• Texas as the new frontier for ibogaine medicalization
• Matrix pharmacology: Ibogaine's intelligent mechanism
• The political war over life-saving psychedelic medicine

Episode Links

• Website
• American Ibogaine Initiative
• Instagram: @w_bryan_hubbard
• X (Formerly Twitter): @w_bryan_hubbard
• Linkedin

Episode Sponsors:

• Golden Rule Mushrooms - Get a lifetime discount of 10% with code THIRDWAVE at checkout

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes Dr. Pedram Shojai, known as The Urban Monk, a former Taoist monk and doctor of Oriental medicine.  Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-304/?ref=278

Pedram shares his journey from intensive martial arts training under one of the last living descendants of a Daoist monastery to bringing ancient wisdom into modern life. He discusses the challenges of integrating monastic practices into householder living, the relationship between physical vitality and spiritual growth, and offers a balanced perspective on psychedelics. Dr. Shojai explores the importance of strengthening one's vessel before seeking peak experiences, the risks of "shortcut spirituality," and how ancient contemplative practices can help us live with greater presence in today's fast-paced world.

Dr. Pedram Shojai is the founder and director of The Urban Monk Academy and the New York Times bestselling author of Rise and Shine, The Urban Monk, The Art of Stopping Time, Inner Alchemy, Exhausted, Trauma, Focus, and Conscious Parenting.

He's the producer of the movies Vitality, Origins, Prosperity, and The Great Heist, as well as the docuseries Interconnected, Gateway to Health, Exhausted, Trauma, Conscious Parenting, Hormones Health & Harmony, and Gut Check.

He hosts "The Urban Monk" podcast and is a key influencer in the health and personal development space. As a prominent physician in the functional medicine space, he's known for his ability to bring people together around ideas that matter.

In his spare time, he's a kung fu–practicing world traveler, a fierce global green warrior, an avid backpacker, a devout alchemist, and an old-school Jedi biohacker working to preserve our natural world and wake us up to our full potential.

Episode Highlights: 

• From Kung Fu to contemplative practice
• The path of the "fire monk"
• Strengthening the vessel before spiritual work
• The life garden: mindful householder practice
• Vitality as prerequisite for spiritual growth
• Integrating ancient wisdom into modern life
• Jing, Qi, and Shen: energy management principles
• Nervous system preparation for psychedelics
• Awareness as background process, not app
• Atlantis origins of contemplative practices

Episode Sponsor: These show links may contain affiliate links. Third Wave receives a small percentage of the product price if you purchase through the above affiliate links.

• Golden Rule Mushrooms - Get a lifetime discount of 10% with code THIRDWAVE at checkout

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes Dr. Richard Schwartz, creator of the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model of psychotherapy. Dick shares how he discovered that psychedelics naturally facilitate access to what IFS calls "Self energy" - the compassionate core within everyone that can heal wounded parts. He explains how medicines like ketamine and MDMA help relax protective parts of our psyche, revealing both Self energy and exiled parts that need healing. Dick reveals his personal journey with psychedelics, including his work with ketamine-assisted IFS therapy, and discusses the relationship between psychedelic experiences and spiritual guides. He emphasizes how reframing "bad trips" as opportunities for exiled parts to be witnessed can transform challenging experiences into profound healing moments.

Dick Schwartz began his career as a family therapist and academic at the University of Illinois at Chicago. There he discovered that family therapy alone did not achieve full symptom relief. His patients became his teachers as they described their inner "parts," which formed networks resembling the families he had been working with. He found that when patients separated from these parts, they shifted into a state of curiosity, calm, confidence, and compassion—what he called the Self. From these explorations, the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model was born in the early 1980s. Now evidence-based, IFS has become widely used, particularly for trauma work, offering non-pathologizing techniques for individuals, couples, families, corporations, and classrooms. Dick lives with his wife Jeanne near Chicago. Highlights: 

• The natural synergy between psychedelics and IFS therapy
• How psychedelics temporarily quiet protective "manager" parts
• Understanding how there are “no bad parts” of the psyche
• The difference between Self and parts in IFS
• Reconceptualizing "bad trips" as healing opportunities
• IFS and shadow work
• How psychedelics accelerate access to exiled parts
• Moving IFS beyond therapy into leadership and systemic change
• Legacy burdens: healing inherited trauma collectively

Episode Sponsors: 

• Golden Rule Mushrooms - Get a lifetime discount of 10% with code THIRDWAVE at checkout

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes Marlena Robbins, a proud member of the Diné (Navajo) nation and doctoral student at the UC Berkeley School of Public Health. Marlena shares her personal journey with psilocybin mushrooms and how they helped reconnect her with her heritage and family. Her research examines the cultural, social, and policy aspects of psilocybin use within Native communities, highlighting differences between urban and rural perspectives to inform educational frameworks, culturally-informed psychedelic assisted therapy models, and public health policy.

Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-302/?ref=278

Marlena Robbins is pursuing a Doctor of Public Health degree at UC Berkeley. Her research examines the cultural, social, and policy aspects of psilocybin use within Native communities, highlighting differences between urban and rural perspectives to inform educational frameworks, culturally-informed psychedelic assisted therapy models and public health policy.

Robbins is a graduate student researcher at the Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics, focusing on program evaluation. Her residency with the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration led to the development of a tribal engagement toolkit, showcasing the significance of psychedelics in spiritual, recreational and conservative contexts among Tribal communities.

Recently, Robbins was invited to join the Federally Recognized American Tribes and Indigenous Community Working Group for the Natural Medicine Health Act with the Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies. This role enables her to advocate for the protection of sacred plants against commercialization and cultural misappropriation.

Highlights:

• Finding sobriety and healthy motherhood through mushrooms
• First experience of Hozhó: beauty, harmony, and balance Reconnecting with mother through shared psychedelic healing
• Advocating for indigenous representation in psychedelic research
• Applying indigenous critical lens to psychedelic policy
• Personifying medicines as relatives with their own spirits
• Evaluating psychedelic integration in Native mental health systems
• Moving beyond capitalism toward reciprocal relationships with medicines
• Meeting ancestral trauma with courage instead of avoidance
• Building bridges between indigenous knowledge and Western healthcare

Episode Sponsors:

• Psychedelic Coacing Isntitute's Intensive for Psychedelic Professionals in Costa Rica - a transformative retreat for personal and professional growth.
• Golden Rule Mushrooms - Get a lifetime discount of 10% with code THIRDWAVE at checkout

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes Sam Mandel, co-founder and CEO of Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles (KCLA). Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-301-sam-mandel/?ref=278 Sam shares his journey co-founding KCLA with his father in 2014, pioneering ketamine infusion therapy when few were exploring its potential for mental health. From humble beginnings in a storage closet to becoming a leading mental health center with over 30,000 infusions administered, Sam discusses the challenges and triumphs of building a patient-centric practice. He explains the science behind ketamine's effectiveness compared to alternatives like Spravato, highlights the importance of individualized treatment, and offers a passionate critique of the current mental healthcare system while envisioning what meaningful reform could look like.

Co-founder & CEO of Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles (KCLA), Sam Mandel has channeled his lifelong passion for healthcare advocacy into transforming mental health care. From volunteering at a teen-to-teen suicide prevention hotline at twelve to pioneering one of the foremost Ketamine Infusion Therapy clinics in 2014 alongside his father, Dr. Steven L. Mandel, Sam has been featured in Entrepreneur's Top 10 Inspiring Healthcare Entrepreneurs (2023) and earned two 2024 Stevie Awards. Under his leadership, KCLA has provided over 30,000 infusions to more than 6,000 patients with an 83% success rate, establishing gold-standard treatment protocols while expanding services to include General Psychiatry and TMS therapy. Highlights: 

• The founding story of KCLA and early skepticism from the medical community
• Why IV ketamine outperforms nasal Spravato in efficacy and cost-efficiency
• Creating individualized ketamine protocols for optimal patient outcomes
• How insurance companies create barriers to effective mental healthcare
• KCLA's 83% success rate compared to 50-70% in controlled research settings
• Expanding from ketamine to TMS and general psychiatry
• Preparing for future psychedelic medicines like MDMA and psilocybin
• The critical flaws in America's mental healthcare system

Episode Links: 

• Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles (KCLA)
• The difference between Ketamine and Spravato (esketamine)
• Third Wave’s Ultimate Guide to Ketamine

Episode Sponsor:

• Psychedelic Coacing Isntitute's Intensive for Psychedelic Professionals in Costa Rica - a transformative retreat for personal and professional growth.

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes Dr. Simon Ruffell, a psychiatrist, ayahuasca researcher, and student of curanderismo.

Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-300/?ref=278

Simon shares his transformative journey from being a skeptical Western psychiatrist to embracing the spiritual dimensions of plant medicine after experiencing what he describes as an "ontological shock" during an ayahuasca ceremony. He discusses his ongoing apprenticeship with Shipibo curanderos in the Amazon, his research into ayahuasca's effects on mental health and epigenetics, and his work bridging indigenous wisdom with Western scientific understanding. Dr. Ruffell explores the differences between Western medical approaches and traditional healing practices, highlighting how the Shipibo focus on harmony and balance rather than fixing specific problems. Through his organization Onaya, he conducts reciprocal research with indigenous communities, studying how ayahuasca affects veterans with PTSD and examining the epigenetic changes that may explain its profound healing effects.

Dr. Simon Ruffell is trained across three modalities: Western medicine (as a medical doctor specializing in psychiatry), research psychology (with a PhD in Amazonian ayahuasca and mental health), and traditional plant medicine (as a student of curanderismo). He is the Chief Medical Officer of MINDS, a nonprofit research organization exploring the potential of psychedelics and consciousness practices to address humanity's greatest challenges.

Since 2015, his work has focused primarily on exploring ayahuasca while collaborating with indigenous communities in the Amazon basin. He is the CEO of Onaya and founded the nonprofit Onaya Science, which researches the effects of ayahuasca in naturalistic Amazonian settings. Dr. Ruffell's work seeks to understand plant medicines from both Indigenous and Western perspectives, and he is currently training in Shipibo Shamanism under Don Rono Lopez.

Highlights:

• A spiritual attack during ceremony that shifted his perspective on reality
• Bridging indigenous wisdom with Western scientific research
• The difference between psychedelic guides and trained shamans
• Ayahuasca and epigenetics: clearing ancestral trauma
• How traditional medicine evolves and adapts over time
• Remarkable PTSD treatment outcomes with veterans
• Approaching healing as returning to harmony
• EEG research during ceremonial Icaros singing
• Shamans as navigational experts of the psychedelic realm
• When to choose Western medicine vs. traditional approaches

Episode Links:

• Dr. Simon Ruffell's Website
• Onaya
• Onaya Science

Episode Sponsor

• Psychedelic Coacing Isntitute's Intensive for Psychedelic Professionals in Costa Rica - a transformative retreat for personal and professional growth.

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin speaks with Dr. Raymond Turpin, a psychologist and psychedelic researcher who has been studying these medicines since 1984. Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcasts/episode-299/?ref=278 Dr. Turpin shares his journey from discovering Timothy Leary's writings as a college student to founding the Pearl Psychedelic Institute in North Carolina. He discusses his experience as one of only two sites nationwide to provide MDMA-assisted therapy through the FDA's expanded access program, the profound healing he witnessed in patients with treatment-resistant PTSD, and the challenges faced after the FDA's rejection of MDMA therapy in 2024. 

Through stories of clinical breakthroughs, educational initiatives, and recovery efforts following Hurricane Helene, Dr. Turpin offers insights into the evolving landscape of psychedelic medicine and his hope for its future integration into mainstream mental healthcare.

Dr. Raymond Turpin is the Executive Director and Clinical Director of the Pearl Psychedelic Institute in western North Carolina. He has been studying and researching psychedelics since 1984 and earned his doctorate in clinical psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies. Dr. Turpin served as an investigator in an Expanded Access program providing MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for treatment-resistant PTSD and has worked with ketamine-assisted therapy while providing psychedelic integration services. Since 2022, he has been a Mentor for the Certificate in Psychedelic Therapy and Research program at CIIS. His clinical experience spans psychiatric hospitals, emergency units, residential treatment facilities, schools, and community mental health clinics.

Highlights:

• A psychedelic calling that began in 1984
• How a mushroom trip changed his career path
• When conventional mental health tools fall short
• MDMA's remarkable results with treatment-resistant PTSD
• From 71 to 18: Dramatic PTSD symptom reduction
• The FDA rejection: A devastating setback
• Hurricane Helene's impact on Asheville's healing community
• Why psychedelics threaten traditional mental health paradigms
• Turning trauma's irritant into a pearl of wisdom
• Education as resistance against misinformation

Episode links: 

• The Pearl Psychedelic Institute
• The Pearl Institute YouTube channel
• California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS) Certificate in Psychedelic Therapy and Research program
• Webinar: MDMA-Assisted Therapy for PTSD: Expanded Access & Beyond
• Timothy Leary's autobiography "Flashbacks" (1984)

Episode Sponsor:

• The Intensive for Psychedelic Professionals in Costa Rica - a transformative retreat for personal and professional growth.

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes Dr. Katelyn Kalstein, a licensed naturopathic doctor, acupuncturist, and psychotherapist specializing in integrative mental health and psychedelic medicine. Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-298/?ref=278 Dr. Kalstein shares her journey from growing up with natural remedies to her transformative experiences in India and Brazil, where she first encountered ayahuasca and joined the Santo Daime church. She discusses her unconventional career path through naturopathic medicine, neurofeedback at 40 Years of Zen, and as Clinical Director at Field Trip Health in Los Angeles. Dr. Kalstein offers valuable insights on the importance of community in healing, the limitations of current medical models, and why psychoanalytic theory remains essential in psychedelic work. 

Through her experiences with various modalities, she illuminates the path toward a more integrated approach to mental health that honors both traditional wisdom and modern science.

Dr. Katelyn Kalstein is a licensed Naturopathic Doctor, acupuncturist, and psychotherapist specializing in ketamine assisted psychotherapy. The former Clinical Director of Field Trip Health in Los Angeles, Dr. Kalstein has seen hundreds of patients through ketamine treatment, both as a prescriber and a therapist. She is certified in Psychedelic Therapy and Research (CIIS) and looks forward to utilizing MDMA and psilocybin therapy when they become legally available.

Starting her career in primary care medicine, Dr. Kalstein is passionate about an integrative approach to mental health care - treating mind, body and spirit. In addition to formal training, Dr. Kalstein has over 20 years of personal experience with psychedelics and meditation, traveling to India, Peru and Brazil for over a decade in order to study with various spiritual teachers and shamans. She has a deep respect for indigenous knowledge and mindfully integrates these teachings into her modern clinical practice.  

Driven by a passion for the safe and ethical use of psychedelics, she views these medicines as powerful catalysts for personal and planetary change.

Highlights:

• Her grandfather's natural medicine influence
• First ayahuasca experience—in an Indian ashram
• The Santo Daime church experience
• Shaving her head and following a guru
• Disillusionment with conventional medicine
• Neurofeedback vs. psychedelic experiences
• Field Trip's clinical model challenges
• Psychoanalysis in psychedelic integration
• Understanding healthy ego development
• Nashville's emerging psychedelic community

Episode links: 

• Website
• Instagram: @drkatelynkalstein
• Simply Being Therapy (Nashville)

Episode Sponsor:

• The Intensive for Psychedelic Professionals in Costa Rica - a transformative retreat for personal and professional growth.

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes New York Times bestselling author Norman Ohler.

Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-297/?ref=278

Norman shares his deep research into the hidden history of LSD, revealing the untold connections between Arthur Stoll (CEO of Sandoz), Nazi Germany, and the CIA's MKUltra program. He explains how LSD's development as a mental health medicine was derailed by intelligence agencies seeking a "truth drug" for interrogations, and how the substance traveled from Swiss laboratories to Nazi concentration camps and eventually to American universities. Norman also discusses his personal connection to psychedelics through his mother's Alzheimer's treatment with microdosing, and offers thoughtful reflections on the current psychedelic renaissance.

Norman Ohler is one of Germany's best living writers: a New York Times Bestselling author, translated into over 30 languages. His books include "Blitzed", "The Bohemians", and "Tripped". He has 2 children and lives in Berlin.

Highlights:

• Welcome & introduction
• Who is Arthur Stoll, the grandfather of psychedelics?
• The Nazi Germany and LSD connection
• Albert Hoffman's complicated relationship with LSD
• The pharmaceutical politics behind psychedelic suppression
• Reflections on the modern psychedelic renaissance
• The challenges of psychedelics in a globalized society
• From "Blitzed" to "Tripped": Norman's research journey
• Norman's personal connection: Microdosing for Alzheimer's
• The mysterious story of JFK and LSD

Episode Links:

• Website
• Instagram: @normanohler
• Norman’s book "Tripped: Nazi Germany, the CIA and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age"
• Norman’s previous book "Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Reich"
• Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer

These show links may contain affiliate links. Third Wave receives a small percentage of the product price if you purchase through the above affiliate links.