Derek Marsh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss leveraging financial tools and intelligence as core investigative strategies to disrupt human trafficking operations and improve survivor restitution outcomes.

Derek Marsh is the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice and a deputy chief with extensive law enforcement experience. He has been a frequent guest on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast and led a recent roundtable discussion on following the money in human trafficking investigations. His background includes hands-on experience with trafficking investigations and a deep understanding of the collaborative approaches needed to combat these complex crimes.

[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 346, leveraging financial tools to disrupt human trafficking. I am very happy to be joined here in the studio by. Global Center for Women and Justice Associate Director, deputy Chief Derek Marsh.

[00:00:28] We have been working together for a very long time and he’s been a frequent guest here on the podcast, so I’m not going to include a bio, but you can go back to the website and learn more from his perspective. By just searching our episodes with the name Derek Marsh. So we’re gonna dive right into the financial aspects.

[00:00:53] We recently interviewed David Tyree on following the money and we talked to, um, district

[00:01:04] Attorney

[00:01:05] Ryan Jbe along the same lines. Today we’re going to look at this from a broader perspective, after having had a round table on following the money here at Vanguard University led by Derek Marsh, and let’s just get.

[00:01:26] Some understanding of what the key strategies and insights are that we were able to glean from that round table, and that will lead us into some action steps. So welcome Derek.

[00:01:45] Derek Marsh: Thanks for having me again, Sandie.

[00:01:47] Sandie Morgan: so. Who else was at the table?

[00:01:50] Derek Marsh: Well, besides you and myself, David Tyree. our expert from the, retired DEA agent, but also working with Valid8 Financial. Now, we also had Ryann Jorban, who’s an A DEA with Los Angeles, District Attorney’s Office, but we were also lucky enough to have a couple professors from here at Vanguard University.

[00:02:09] professor Julius Angbor, who is a marketing and business. Expert, specifically in international business issues, focusing mostly in Africa and that region of the world. We also had assistant professor, Dr. Thomas Ropel, who was a retired FBI agent, who was able to focus on the collaborative strategies used by the federal agencies to work on human trafficking and exploitation types of investigations.

[00:02:35] We were also lucky to have assistant director of the US Department of Labor Wage in our division, Paul Chang, who was one of our favorites we’ve had on before. Uh, and he was able to discuss specifics about labor trafficking, where we’re finding a lot of labor trafficking occurring and how that process occurs.

[00:02:53] And we were also able to have, members,from Valid8 Financial actually show up and discuss their software and give us a demonstration to show how all these. incredible amounts of data that would take a regular person, you know, hours if not weeks, to put together their software is able to put together in a matter of minutes.

[00:03:12] It was amazing. So, we had a good group of people who we could discuss this with. And, and finally, I don’t wanna lose this out obviously, but we had, Linh Tran, who is our task force administrator, In charge of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force has been for years, ever since even I was there.

[00:03:30] So that’s like dating myself or dating her, I’m not sure which, and finally we had, of course, John Cotton Richmond, who, was gracious enough to spend some time with us. He was our, I. Previous human trafficking, czar, maybe that’s the wrong word to use, but that’s, you know, our previous human trafficking, director for the United States and the State Department.

[00:03:52] And he was also, actively participating in, in the discussion helping us understand, uh, federal perspectives and where we’re moving forward with financial investigations and the financial tools that can be used.

[00:04:05] Sandie Morgan: And, and I think this round table demonstrated how broad the element of following the money as across our movement.

[00:04:18] We’re looking at law enforcement, we’re looking at prosecutors, but there’s also this sense that the element. Restitution is more attainable for better victim outcomes, and that’s what drove me. You all know my background in pediatric nursing, so a lot of this was foreign language for me. So while Derek and I break down an executive summary of what happened at that round table, I’m the one who.

[00:04:54] Doesn’t understand even what a forensic accountant does, and so I’m gonna help stop him when it sounds a little too complicated so that I can put it into my normal context. Is that okay with you, Derek?

[00:05:11] Derek Marsh: Perfectly. Okay. Frankly, I don’t wanna pretend I’m an accountant at heart either, but I, I do love the numbers and I, I love the fact that, uh, numbers don’t lie. That the reality is that they can hide things, hide people, hide locations, hide phone numbers. But when you get ahold of the accounts and you’re able to track those accounts and where money’s moving, it really gives you a crystal clear perspective of the.

[00:05:33] Criminal organization that is running any kind of a human trafficking operation.

[00:05:39] Sandie Morgan: So our first. Key strategy is built around the aspect of financial intelligence as a core investigative tool. And when I first started hearing the group around the table talk about financial intelligence, I kind of reduced it to my understanding of, oh, we need financial literacy. And then I began to. See there was a huge world I had never explored, and that is an area of data that, we need to understand.

[00:06:18] Can you unpack that for us?

[00:06:20] Derek Marsh: I will try again. Um, still getting to know, some specifics about this, but lemme go back to a time when I was actually wearing uniform and we were doing investigations where we would run into these sex trafficking operations, labor trafficking organizations, and.

[00:06:36] We would look for money. We really couldn’t find that much of it. And we’re trying to figure out why is that? We know money’s a major, major motivator for this, and saving money’s great, but we know that they were also producing money and we just couldn’t seem to get a hold of it. Understanding that financial intelligence as a core investigative tool kind of flipped the switch for me.

[00:06:54] As far as perspective with the idea is instead of looking at any organization is basically a financial, Method to which finances are moved. You know, places are supported, people are supported, people are charged. All of that became kind of, it almost felt like saying duh, because it was just so intrinsically basic that we’ve been relying so much on.

[00:07:19] confidential informants or going on the web and trying to solicit, people to in initiate an investigation or maybe relying on past, victim survivors who could share with us what they thought was going on. Whereas if we were to go into these, financial records of these different organizations, we would’ve had a much cleaner perspective and been much less reliant on our victim survivors to provide evidence to substantiate these criminal organizations.

[00:07:48] Sandie Morgan: So some of the patterns that you’re looking for, use terminology. That is new to me. Funnel accounts, structured cash deposits, geographically patterned movements. Can you break that down a little bit?

[00:08:06] Derek Marsh: I will try, but it’s still, it’s still a little bit of Greek to me as well. The idea here is that you have certain accounts that roll over and are pushed forward to different, different locations.

[00:08:17] So you might start at this bank and then have it a certain amount rolled over to the next account, then a following bank account. So you have to, there’s actually a trail that’s left, but the more they move it, the more difficult it is. To identify where the money initially came from and it, and its legitimacy also, you find that they move locations as well.

[00:08:36] So maybe you start with a bank here in the United States of America, but then you’re at the Grand Caymans and maybe you’re in Switzerland next and maybe you’re wherever. And it keeps making circles coming back to where people are able to access it. So by the time you see the money or those people are able to access the money, It’s so deep into this, electronic transferring that anybody just looking at normal accounts would see transfers in and out, but they wouldn’t be able to follow the money from the point of origin where the trafficking occurred or where the money’s being, taken to the point where it’s actually being used to facilitate organizational goals and missions, which in this case are criminal.

[00:09:16] So. These types of operational dynamics are important for us to understand how this organization is structured and also understands how extensive that organization may be. We, you know, we talk about mom and pop organizations versus criminal enterprises. Will the financials really support? Whether it something is really just a mom and pop organization, maybe just does one or two jumps in a financial stream and it stops, versus having criminal enterprises where it may, it may have 15, 20, 30 different stops at.

[00:09:49] Different bank accounts may not even seem to be cross related to the bank account before or after, but then in essence are the way that they’re hiding this money, they’re funneling this money, they’re laundering this money basically, to make it more, seem more legitimate, so that the organization can use it to further their criminal enterprise.

[00:10:07] Sandie Morgan: So

[00:10:08] that kind of financial investigation can actually expose those kind crimes that are connected and that we’re looking at them as separate crimes, but they’re really part of.

[00:10:22] A network, an enterprise is the language that you’re using.

[00:10:26] Derek Marsh: Right. I, I look back at some of the things we, we found when we were doing our investigation, some of what we considered mom and pop organizations for sex trafficking and for labor trafficking.

[00:10:36] And now having, again, Paul Shanks insight into how these are, are run. Also, seeing how these financial insights can be provided. It makes me wonder if we were just being naive and shortsighted and not realizing that they, they all worked the same way, but they didn’t seem connected. But if we’d take the time, had the resources to follow the money, that I think we would’ve found that there were a lot more connections and a lot larger criminal enterprise than we initially suspected.

[00:11:01] Sandie Morgan: And from my side of the perspective on victim services, victim, restitution, one of the things that happens when you start using finance as a core investigative tool is.

[00:11:20] We can prove things without making a survivor testify in court, publicly facing her abuser. So there’s

[00:11:32] Some intangible rewards, not just financial.

[00:11:37] So I, I was thinking about the structured cash deposits that are part of what they follow and I remember someone talking at their table about how they. Avoid being detected by some of the alerts we have in accounts by depositing just under the limit before it rises to the level of investigation.

[00:12:05] And our group talked about how the SAR can be part of our. Strategies. What is that?

[00:12:15] Derek Marsh: So SAR stands for suspicious activity reports that banks are required to share with different agencies. If they find a singular deposit or a pattern of deposits they, they believe might be. Generated through criminal enterprise.

[00:12:33] Now, how they determine that I’m gonna defer to David Tyree every day of the week. ’cause I mean, he’s the man when it comes to understanding that and articulating better. However, what these reports are do is they’re, they’re, they’re sent to various federal agencies, which can either act upon them or not act upon them.

[00:12:51] The challenge is if they’re able to take those reports and able to go through the various deposits and. Movement of money sufficiently to be able to establish any kind of pattern or practice behavior. And obviously I think most, most people who don’t understand accounting, and I’m gonna have to raise my hand here and say I’m not an accountant.

[00:13:13] I don’t even pretend to be one. Are gonna have a hard time looking at some of those numbers. ’cause my extent, my sense of understanding is like looking at my paycheck, sorry, looking at my paycheck and following it into my bank account and realize it got deposited there. I’m pumped. So these are way more complicated and way more intricate.

[00:13:29] And as a result they were, that’s when David and our, our, our friends from Valid8 Financial, were able to. Demonstrate how their software is able just to take these sheets and sheets of papers and make sense out of it and connect the dots, where just looking at a document would prove nothing other than, yeah, I’m looking at a document.

[00:13:48] It looks like an Excel spreadsheet that has no intrinsic meaning to me, and no way of connecting the dots.

[00:13:54] Sandie Morgan: So visualizing those transaction flows instead of just, engaging in actual accounting, adding up the numbers is a different way of using

[00:14:11] financial

[00:14:12] intelligence in the investigation process.

[00:14:16] And if you wanna go back and listen to our interview with David Tyree, it’s episode number 341. And frankly, I had to listen to it three times, so you might wanna set aside a little extra time because there’s a lot of, content in his explanation. And I think it’s important for us as local advocates, even though this seems like it’s way beyond, what the average person is going to

[00:14:49] be able to.

[00:14:51] Apply. It does give us an edge in asking questions and finding ways to get the right people with that expertise at our table in our courts and our, investigations.

[00:15:08] Derek Marsh: Sandie, you mentioned courts, and I think it’s important. We remember that the, the beauty of some of this investigative tools and these methods and this software is that it presents this data in a comprehensible format. So instead of an investigator testifying, Hey, you may not see it, but I’m telling you it’s really there, and everyone’s saying, well, that’s not quite good enough to prove evidentiary value, they’re able to create re.

[00:15:32] Ports showing link analysis and other types of pictures and images that represent flows of money back and forth, who it’s going to, what accounts it’s coming to and from the amount that it’s coming to and from making it. Very easy for both prosecutors, defense attorneys, suspects, and our judges to have a better understanding of what’s being presented in court so they can decide if this really does substantiate the claim that these persons or individual is part of a criminal enterprise.

[00:16:07] Sandie Morgan: so

[00:16:08] I know that. With the kind of data that’s out there. Now, my family knows where I am most of the time. I’m assuming that probably my financial institution can figure out where I am depositing money from or withdrawing if I’m withdrawing from an ATM in another country.

[00:16:32] And this. Aspect of investigation that is location centered seems to be able to add to our ability to corroborate a victim’s story in other elements in, in our investigation. Can you expand on that?

[00:16:54] Derek Marsh: Sure. So I mean, and what, like you were saying, if. Some credit cards are generous, some are not so generous. You know, you can leave the country if you don’t notify your credit card, they’ll shut down any transaction occurs internationally.

[00:17:05] But I get notifications every once in a while saying, Hey, is this particular activity relevant to you? Did you actually charge this to your account? And I think we’ve all experienced that to some degree. Technology’s kind of a. World where the, the, the bank has an algorithm. They have a way that you usually spend your money and if something falls outside those parameters, they’re checking in on you.

[00:17:26] They don’t wanna inherit that debt, especially if you’re gonna deny it. Well, that same thing works on the international level as well. The idea that there are certain streams, location to location of financial flow that have a high chance of being suspect of criminal activity. For instance, there’s a Nigeria, Italy.

[00:17:46] pathway of funds that it makes, banks quiver in their, in their, in their vaults, if you will, to, to realize that maybe something isn’t all, all right in Denmark there, or maybe the Philippines to Europe. I mean, all of these, and there are multiple, many, many more of those, but I’m just throwing a couple off.

[00:18:04] For example, the idea being that certain location, two locations can potentially raise red flags. That there is potential criminal activity gone. Even if it’s the transactions, it may seem legitimate. Even if it’s going from a church to a church or it’s going from a gov apparent government organization to apparent government organization or a government organization to an NGO, they are able to look, they’re able to see those risk-based locations, risk-based, transactions, and they’re able to generate either those suspicious activity reports.

[00:18:37] or they’re able to pay more attention to those to see if they need to generate an SAR to I to let law enforcement know there may be illicit crimes occurring. And these particular corridors are funneling locations are being used to facilitate that criminal enterprise.

[00:18:57] Sandie Morgan: So that geographical piece leads me then into thinking about how some of our old paradigms for investigation that, have to do with, this is my territory. this, my investigation ends at the county line.

[00:19:17] how does. How do we overcome that by creating some way to collaborate across that kind of geographical, restriction?

[00:19:28] Derek Marsh: I think from day one, we just have to accept that human trafficking cannot be done on an island.

[00:19:35] You just cannot have one agency. That is responsible for an entire case. I, I, I think I’ve told the story before where on the first trafficking investigation, we tried to try to do it independently. I was kind of arrogant. I felt like, Hey, we’ve done other investigations without outside help. I should be able to handle this internally.

[00:19:53] And found out very quickly the complications involving victim witness assistance. the complications involved with having international, Suspects involved, having international connections involved where they were transported from a foreign country here to the us. All of those things were way outside my capabilities handling.

[00:20:12] So you have to collaborate, you have to have multiple agencies getting together to work this out. And now we’re finding that. And not really a surprise, but I think just something that just doesn’t normally hit in most investigations from a local or even a, a county based investigative team is we need to look at finances as being ultimately the most mobile thing out there.

[00:20:33] I mean, think about it, our phones, cross state and country barriers. Without a blink, we, you know, I can call and we’ve done it. Now, we’ve done our travels, we’ve called home. No, no. It sounds like we’re next door. It is. No big deal. So same thing with finances. They get moved as quick as you can. Your internet connections are bouncing all over the world, you know, as they validate and go across different countries and different states and different, areas.

[00:20:55] So it’s not surprising to find that we have to think if human trafficking is being a much more sophisticated financial network than we originally suspected.

[00:21:07] Sandie Morgan: So, you know me, I’m not an athlete and I, I resist all of those sports analogies, but for me, when I started beginning to understand the conversation around that table about all that.

[00:21:23] Bouncing. It’s like we have to have our teams where we’re passing the ball between the players, the players in the uk, the players in Africa, those kinds of global models, And how do we do that when. It can’t all fit through governments because often the governments don’t have those kinds of connections.

[00:21:52] Derek Marsh: Well, and that’s where you come with your public private partnerships. That’s when you’re looking at connecting businesses together that might be able to support or help validate what’s going on.

[00:22:01] A bank is a business, if you wanna think of it that way. Yeah. Corporations, right? So, you wanna think of NGOs. ’cause here’s the thing. Not all NGOs just stay in one spot and they’re singular. We have international NGOs all over the place that we can connect with and move forward. We have. Faith-based organizations that are internationally, located.

[00:22:20] So if you need help identifying people or providing resources, or even being able to host, you know, investigators when they go to these different locations, then they’re out there as well too. I think that I. There are a, a group there, there’s a large number of opportunities here where your private groups, your, especially your business partners, your corporations, can really contribute significantly and positively to not only providing, helping provide the tools that make these investigations so much more. Coherent and understandable to judges and prosecutors and to investigators, but also the idea that these public-private partnerships help build multiple groups of interlocking layers so that they leverage everyone’s expertise to create a greater whole than they would ever have individually.

[00:23:15] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:23:17] It’s still a bit complicated. I may have to listen to this episode three times, but. I wanna come down to the reason I was at the table, the idea of survivor centered restitution and financial empowerment. How is this going to be more than just about catching the bad guys another way to capture somebody?

[00:23:43] Derek Marsh: Well, Sandie, I share your frustration.

[00:23:45] I know in California and just about every state in the United States, including our federal government, restitution is mandatory. Our victim survivors need to get money to compensate them, for them to start standing up on their own and re recompense them for what’s occurred to them. You can’t unwind and exploitation.

[00:24:01] I’m not pretending that, but at least you could put, put them in a better financial position moving forward, so they can be, have a better chance for success. So when you’re using financial software to identify the account and identify the amounts of money, who the players are, the locations that there are, how they’re spending or not spending the money, this allows you to be able to do what cops love to do is seize things right?

[00:24:24] And obviously legally we’re not just out there just to robber bear in the world. But the idea here is that if we’re able to find this money that historically has been so difficult and so ephemeral and difficult hold of, now we can find these bank accounts that are. Obviously facilitating the criminal enterprise, lock those monies down and then start using that money to pay restitution to our victim survivors based on whatever the amounts are that are reasonable and are mandated by whatever statute you’re following.

[00:24:56] In addition to that, besides just having your victim. Victims be compensated, or survivors being compensated. This can, all, this money can also be put together to help, fund further investigations and to fund further victim services. So it, it works for everybody. It’s a win-win across the board. The criminal enterprise loses the money upon which it’s, it’s based, it’s gonna be disrupted if not dismantled the.

[00:25:22] Victims are getting restitution. And maybe even if we’re, if we have, we’re able to find sufficient funds, maybe even get a little compensation for the time of during the investigation and for the victim services that are going to have been provided and will need to be provided moving forward. ’cause you know, our victims just don’t get better the minute they’re released from the are liberated from these situations.

[00:25:43] And finally, it’s also something that we can do as far as making it clear for the courts. So that we can make sure that these people are held accountable. maybe not just criminally, but also civilly and administratively as well. Paying fines to those agencies that have been, circumvented those rules that have been ignored so that we can help support other agencies out there and other, public-private partnerships, if you will, to move forward and sustain the effort that we’re trying to maintain.

[00:26:15] Sandie Morgan: So let’s think through, if we want to call our listeners to action, what are some areas that deserve our attention?

[00:26:26] We don’t know all the answers, but we are going to be seeking out experts to provide this kind of knowledge base On

[00:26:35] the ending Human Trafficking podcast. So let’s talk about that.

[00:26:39] Derek Marsh: Well, I think number one, and it sounds like, I think this is the answer just about everything we started, it was like training, training, training.

[00:26:45] We have to get people to articulate better that I’m articulating to you now, but to to not only articulate, but understand the importance and significance of using financial tools and financial investigative techniques to supplement. Human trafficking investigations and show positive results. I think that’s number one.

[00:27:04] Number two, you’ve gotta find ai, you know, artificial intelligence enhanced tools to help us do that work. Because the reality is there are many, many officers out in the field over a hundred thousand, right? But guess what? Not all of ’em are accountants. In fact, I would guess most of ’em are not. And I think that.

[00:27:20] That’s why you need these tools to supplement the efforts and make them work well. The other thing we need to understand is there is cross border legal and data sharing frameworks. We need to understand, respect, and follow to make sure our investigations aren’t. usurped by evidentiary problems or by misunderstandings across borders so we can make sure that we hold everyone accountable and liberate the people who need to liberate as well.

[00:27:48] And finally, we have to maintain, like we always do, our survivor. Victim-centered, trauma-informed approach across the board, enhance those restitutions that we are unfortunately not capable of enforcing all the time. Even though they may be levied against a group, they may not be able to afford it and they’re not able to afford it ’cause we can’t identify the financial.

[00:28:11] Pathways and the accounts and all of the intricacies involved with the whole finance of these operations. But if we have this software, we’re able to freeze those accounts, you know, use those SAR effectively, then we’ll be able to recoup much more money.

[00:28:27] Provide those needed services and they that can be paid for through the restitutions and help these people start in a much better place than square one with dime zero and having to rely and con continue to rely on other people to move forward in their lives.

[00:28:45] Sandie Morgan: I think my favorite quote at the end of the round table regarding survivors is that this kind

[00:28:54] of.

[00:28:55] investigative tool translates financial intelligence into justice.

[00:29:03] Wow. Um. Ultimately, human trafficking is a financial crime. Ambassador Richmond wanted to be at the table because that has been his mantra from the time he was a DOJ attorney all the way through his, service at the State Department, and so many people in this movement. Are beginning to grasp that this is not just a horrific human rights issue.

[00:29:39] It’s not just about sexual exploitation. Even when we use the word exploitation, it implies a financial crime. So we need to up our game in having tools. To investigate the financial side of things. So we wanna call you to start doing your own digging, find out what tools are there, and look up our friends at.

[00:30:07] Valid8 Financial. Go online and read the executive summary. It has citations for many of the things we’ve talked about here. See a list of the people who are around the table. Find somebody in your area. Begin to develop partnerships and together we will start making financial intelligence a part of our understanding and a part of our toolkit in this battle to combat human trafficking.

[00:30:41] Derek, thanks for showing up again.

[00:30:43] Derek Marsh: Thanks for having me show up. I appreciate it.

[00:30:45] Sandie Morgan: And if you are new to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast,Please go on over to the ending human trafficking website, subscribe and you’ll be notified when a new episode drops every two weeks. Find out what we’re doing.

[00:31:06] follow our survivor voices, check out our resources, and come back in two weeks for the next episode.

Ryann Gerber Jorban joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss how labor exploitation functions as a hidden form of modern-day slavery, and how community collaboration, empathy, and survivor-centered strategies are critical in addressing labor trafficking.

Ryann Gerber Jorban is a seasoned prosecutor with the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office, where she has served since 1998. With a background in sociology from UC Riverside and a law degree from the University of Michigan, she has devoted her career to seeking justice for vulnerable communities, including children, the elderly, and survivors of abuse and human trafficking. In her role as Deputy in Charge, she leads both the Economic Justice and Labor Justice Units, focusing on wage theft, labor exploitation, and fraud. Ryann is nationally recognized for her survivor-centered approach, combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to collaboration, trust building, and meeting survivors’ foundational needs. She was also a featured speaker at the 2025 Ensure Justice Conference, where she shared her insights on labor trafficking and the exploitation of children.

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women. Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice. Make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:22] Today I am joined by Ryann Gerber Jorban, a seasoned prosecutor with the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office. She has served there since 1998. With a background in sociology from uc, Riverside, and a law degree from the University of Michigan, she has devoted her career to seeking justice for vulnerable communities, including children, the elderly survivors of abuse.

[00:00:54] Human trafficking victims in her role as deputy in charge. She leads both the economic justice and labor justice units focusing on wage theft. Labor exploitation and fraud. Ryann is nationally recognized for her survivor-centered approach, combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to collaboration, trust building, and meeting survivors foundational needs. We were honored to have Ryann join us as a speaker at this year’s. Ensure Justice Conference 2025. She shared her insight on labor trafficking and the exploitation of children.

[00:01:39] Well, welcome to the ending Human Trafficking podcast, Ryann Gerber Jor. What is it like to be deputy in charge?

[00:01:49] Ryann Gerber Jorban: it’s basically the same as being a deputy district attorney, but with more work.

[00:01:54] Sandie Morgan: More work. Oh, I thought it would be more fun because you’d have more power. I liked the in charge part of your title.

[00:02:01] Ryann Gerber Jorban: the in charge part is nice. It’s very funny. In our office, deputy in charge is actually the lowest level of management. I think they give us that in charge part. So, we feel power even though we have very little. But, I. I will say it is the fun always feels bad when you’re talking about, crime and victims, but it is the most fun I have ever had in my career.

[00:02:24] it’s fulfilling. It’s exciting. It’s a little crazy, but it’s definitely the best job I’ve had so far in the DA’s office and I’ve loved all 26 years of my life in the DA’s office. So that’s saying a lot.

[00:02:37] Sandie Morgan: Oh, I love that. And for our listeners, she is smiling while she’s saying that, and I’ve known Ryann for a while now and her smile is very authentic. And Ryann, your deputy in charge, full title is Economic Justice and Labor Justice Units. So explain why that is such a fun job. Yeah.

[00:03:00] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah, so I’m part of, um, so I work for LA County District Attorney’s office, part of our consumer protection Division. It’s the bigger division and we protect consumers from all kinds of levels of fraud. And, back in, 2017, uh. Jackie Lacey, who was the DA at the time, and a wonderful human being. she, started the, what we called at the time, the Notario Fraud Unit, and we now call it the Economic Justice Unit because it’s more expansive in what we cover, but it was basically protecting vulnerable communities from fraud that is.

[00:03:38] Pointed at them because of their vulnerabilities. Their vulnerabilities make them, much more likely to be victimized, than other people. And, I got to be the first, da. I had a boss and then it was me. I was the first trial lawyer in there. And it was the, it was amazing.I’ve worked with vulnerable victims as a sex crimes and domestic violence and child abuse prosecutor for most of my career.

[00:04:01] And so this was a natural. Shift and no one was really helping these people in the same way that we were, and I was really proud of that.

[00:04:08] Sandie Morgan: I love that. So that’s a good way to segue, into where our conversation is gonna go today.

[00:04:16] You’ve called labor exploitation, a form of modern day slavery. Can you unpack what that means in your work and why the public should even care?

[00:04:29] Ryann Gerber Jorban: So we tend to get, very focused on the word trafficking. And Sandie, you’ve heard me say this, like ad naum, trafficking’s important trafficking. Is a powerful way to move our messaging. But what we have to understand is labor exploitation is a spectrum, and on one end is trafficking. On the first end is not being paid what you’re owed, but it’s, even though it’s a spectrum, it’s very short journey from one to the other.

[00:04:56] and so when I say labor exploitation, we don’t treat workers and give them their rights and protect them. In the workplace, we are treating them as less than human. And no one deserves to be treated as less than human. I don’t care what you’ve done. everything we read from the Constitution to the Bible to philosopher says, how we treat the least of us is what we will be measured by.

[00:05:22] And so I truly believe that. So, The, the labor exploitation, leads us to dehumanize those who work and those who work are why we exist. So, that’s my little philosophical part of that. but the bigger part is labor exploitation’s a crime and you’re stealing from people. I don’t like that. I, I’m, I’m not a big fan of that.

[00:05:45] Sandie Morgan: All right. So I love how you pulled in the moral aspect, and I hope that your words and the knowledge in what we’re learning today about this will help our listeners and generally our public to be able to identify why they care about labor trafficking. Because as you and I have talked about, sex trafficking gets a. Lot more of the attention and it deserves attention. But labor trafficking deserves the same level of attention, and we can do a better job reporting and being eyes and ears in our community.

[00:06:31] So let’s talk about wage. These sound like kind of boring things. Again,

[00:06:38] labor trafficking doesn’t have all of the sexy conversation, that we sometimes come to expect in the human trafficking conversations.

[00:06:50] So let’s talk about how do wage theft and force labor show up in Los Angeles County, and then we’ll move into what can we do to better identify those crimes?

[00:07:06] Ryann Gerber Jorban: So, there’s certain. Areas that are ripe for wage theft and, and forced labor. they tend to be lower paid. They tend to need a lot of workers. They tend to have, a lot of, movement across workers, and especially in LA County or Southern California. They’re going to be primarily filled.

[00:07:29] Not primarily, but very largely filled by people who are either undocumented or undocumented. So their power is very low, right? and their need is very high. And when you have high need and low power, you are extremely vulnerable to being mistreated, and In LA County, we see a lot of that, of course in construction, car washes,restaurants, healthcare,these are areas where we really can have a huge.

[00:08:03] Problem that no one sees, right? Because you go into a illicit massage business, you’re gonna see what’s going on. You go into a restaurant, you’re not necessarily gonna see that the dishwasher’s not being paid more than $5 an hour, and that dishwasher doesn’t have a choice, right? He can’t get a job ’cause he’s here undocumented.

[00:08:24] He has a family back either back in his home country or here that he has to.

[00:08:31] He, is at the absolute power of his employer who can fire him, who can choose to pay him or not pay him that day, and who can threaten to have him deported if he is not happy with him.

[00:08:46] Sandie Morgan: Wow. All of that sounds like the definition of coercion.

[00:08:50]

[00:08:50] Ryann Gerber Jorban: There’s two definitions that work. We see a lot of debt bondage, which is where somebody says, you owe me this money and you have to work for me till you pay it off, or, I owe you this money and I’m not going to give it to you until X date occurs and you have to continue to work for me Until then, so it’s.

[00:09:09] I’ll gladly have you work today, but I’ll pay you next Tuesday.

[00:09:12] Sandie Morgan: Hmm.

[00:09:13] So let me ask this because you’re talking about,

[00:09:16] $5 an hour, and the minimum wage here in California right now is $16 an hour,

[00:09:24] Ryann Gerber Jorban: so we have a case that we just settled that was a garment worker case, and the garment workers were working 55 hours a week and be making, roughly five to $6 an hour.

[00:09:36] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So here’s the question people ask me in general community settings. So if they’re getting paid, then I can’t report it as human trafficking, even if it’s not at minimum wage. So what’s that gray area? Does the fact that they are getting paid $5 an hour eliminate a trafficking case?

[00:10:04] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Not at all. So what you’re being paid actually is less, of an issue as to how you are being controlled. So labor, forced labor trafficking is the somebody having to work based on force fear or coercion force is what we tend to think of traditionally, right? They’re in

[00:10:29] Sandie Morgan: White van kidnapped.

[00:10:32] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. and, and we have that same mindset with sex trafficking too, by the way.

[00:10:36] I’ve done sex trafficking, so I’m real familiar with both ends of that spectrum. But, we’re not talking about chained up people at the side of the road. Okay. Or in a field being beaten. So force is there. There’s lots of violence. There’s guns, there’s threats, there’s, I have, I have one case right now where they threatened to murder them, but that is not the primary driver here.

[00:11:01] The primary is gonna be the fear. I’m going to call ice. I’m gonna have your children taken away by DCFS. I know someone in the mafia or in the organized crime who’s going to do something to you. or, your family back home will pay for this. So that’s the fear. And then the coercion is controlling them somehow, keeping their visas, keeping their documents.

[00:11:30] Holding onto their pay, saying to agricultural workers. We see this a lot in ag. Um,I’ll pay you when the, when the, when the, the harvest is done. So these people are working 6, 8, 10 weeks, but they’re not getting paid till the end of that time

[00:11:49] and

[00:11:49] they can’t leave if they walk away from that work.

[00:11:53] They’re not gonna get what they’re already owed. and of course by the time you get to the end of that, they don’t have a lot of power to get that money back ’cause they can’t take the work back, right? So they take whatever they can get. So coercion, controlling them and, exploiting their vulnerabilities and their desperate need, is what keeps people enforced labor.

[00:12:18] And it’s that imbalance of power that creates an opportunity for someone to exploit or abuse another person. And we see that across the spectrum in family violence, in child abuse. In, worker complaints, but here it is significantly amplified by the extreme vulnerability. When we’re talking about children who are in this space, kids who have been rescued from labor trafficking often are unaccompanied refugee minors. or the children of undocumented, or as you say, not fully documented, parents. Can you use some of the elements of the case you worked on with the Guatemalan youth to give us a little better understanding there?

[00:13:21] Yeah, we were involved, uh, tangentially in that case, but I’m very aware of it. I helped, I, I actually spoke to them about kind of what their rights were and things and, so. Chicken processing plants in LA County. There’s a large number of them who knew

[00:13:39] Sandie Morgan: I know. It was a big surprise for me

[00:13:41] too.

[00:13:42] Ryann Gerber Jorban: And, for whatever reason we see across the country in meat and chicken processing and egg processing, a large number of Guatemalan.

[00:13:52] migrants who are working in those areas, and there’s often a lot of labor trafficking. And that’s a, maybe we could talk about that topic another time about why, but, the, here in LA County we had that, we had a case that was handled by the Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division. And when they went in, they found, migrant teens.

[00:14:16] I believe the age range was 14 to 17. working in this chicken processing plant cleaning. Cutting chicken into pieces, things like this. And all of these kids have been brought up here as unaccompanied minors.and if you think about the vulnerabilities of an adult.

[00:14:34] Then you add that to being a 15-year-old kiddo who thinks that, who not only thinks, but is truly their family’s only hope back in Guatemala.

[00:14:44] So, you know, they screw up here. Their family in Guatemala loses their land at best, loses their lives at worst. Right? And my 15-year-old can barely wipe down the counters. Don’t tell her I said that. We won’t let her hear this part, you know, and,

[00:15:02] And, if I threaten her, with losing her ability to go out on the weekend, that works really well.

[00:15:08] I can’t imagine what these kids feel. I can’t imagine the terror and pressure they feel.

[00:15:15] Sandie Morgan: So that’s a great segue into one of the things that I love about you, because you can imagine, and, and I think we could define that capacity to imagine that trauma, that pain as empathy that really marks your leadership with a victim centered approach. So.my first question about how you put survivors first as you build a case around human needs, I’ve heard you speak about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs

[00:15:53] in relation to the victims. so how does that actually shape your legal strategy?

[00:16:02] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. So, you know, Maslow’s Triangle is the idea that we have to have certain base needs met in a, in progression before we can get to a higher level of. Ability to work in the world, right? So if you don’t know where you’re going to eat, what you’re going to eat that night, or as a mom, I always go back to my kids.

[00:16:24] If my, I don’t know how I’m feeding my kids that night, I’m not really gonna care about self-esteem. Like, like it’s not gonna be high on my level ’cause I have these basic needs. So when I’m building a legal case, I need to recognize that the people who are being mistreated. Are just trying to survive at these lower levels of Maslow’s Triangle, and I don’t have that experience.

[00:16:47] I am blessed. I don’t know what that feels like. and so I need to be sure that I’m, keeping that in mind. So when I build a case, what I try to do is build the case without the victim or our, our person who’s being, mistreated to carry the case.

[00:17:08] Are not my primary witness. My primary witness is gonna be other things that I can prove without their participation or with minimal participation.

[00:17:17] So not did they abuse you, but did you get to have a lunch break? I can build a case on the failure to pay someone for their lunch break. Break, and then once they are. Once we file that case and we’re doing well with it, and they get stabilized. They get case management and services and a, a job and immigration services, and they now know where they’re going to eat.

[00:17:43] They have a safe place to live. Their kids are safe now they are high enough on Maslow’s to help me. With a much more serious case. So my belief is we try the case we have in front of us, we don’t put it on the shoulder of our victims. And then as we give our victims the support and stabilization they need through our partners in the nonprofit world, then we utilize their strength to build a a, a more serious case if possible.

[00:18:11] Sandie Morgan: So using this legal strategy, how effective has that been in For me, the real justice part of this is more focused on. How the victims, receive restitution. I know it’s good to put the bad guys in prison, but, how effective has this strategy been in that respect, because that is a survivor first focus.

[00:18:41] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. So when we, are doing these cases, our primary interest is getting our, survivors. Two things when we first come into contact with them. you know, best practice and we’re still working on this. I am a work in progress, Lord knows, um, literally, Is making sure that we are working with our nonprofit partners who work with these communities.

[00:19:03] I am, can’t tell ’cause voice, but I am a white, middle class suburban mom who literally drives a minivan and used to go to soccer games. Now I go to band. I am a band mom, right? I do not have the cultural knowledge of other communities outside of mine. None of us do. We know our culture. So for our own cultural intelligence, which is a thing, we have to utilize people who have that cultural intelligence to assist us.

[00:19:32] it is arrogance and hubris to think that we can understand somebody else’s culture well enough to. give them what they need culturally and supportively. But by going to a community organization, I love working with the Thai Community Development Center. ’cause even though Thai is in their name,they understand this and they have people from all different cultures who can help the subsets of people.

[00:19:56] They help.

[00:19:57] Sandie Morgan: The Thai CDC, helps stabilize provide case management and provide legal structure for our victims, and that allows us to, move them up Maslow’s Triangle in a culturally appropriate way. When we try to do that without the cultural appropriation, it’s not gonna work. But when we do that, we are putting them first in their needs first.

[00:20:22] Ryann Gerber Jorban: And I think I got off topic.

[00:20:24] Sandie Morgan: No, you’re good. You’re good. And,

[00:20:26] Ryann I’ve heard you use this phrase before and to kinda sum up this, putting survivors first part of our conversation, you said you want to build a case with a survivor instead of around them. what does that look like in real life?

[00:20:49] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Slight,

[00:20:50] tangent. You know, we talk a lot about the words victim, survivor, rescue, all of these things. We’re not the center of these cases. It, it’s not what we need. We should be focusing on in these cases, it’s what the person who went through it needs that we should be focusing on. And so when I say with, I need to meet the survivor where they are, I cannot force them to meet the me where I need them to be.

[00:21:17] That’s just unrealistic and that’s why we can’t do a lot of these cases. So if where they are is they can’t help me. That’s absolutely fair. they owe me nothing. and so, understanding where they are from and having empathy for where they are and making sure that they have the support they need, is my primary goal.

[00:21:38] So when we settle these cases, or when we prosecute these cases, our number one interest is what can we do if our victims are not able to help us? Okay? Because that doesn’t mean the person should get to walk just because they picked particularly vulnerable people. Okay? In fact, the opposite second. What can we do?

[00:22:01] What can we provide? Who can we partner with to make sure that our victims are supported and that this bad thing that happened to them turns into their opportunity to have a better life?

[00:22:13] Sandie Morgan: That’s so good and such a great segue to the

[00:22:17] next aspect.

[00:22:18] I wanna

[00:22:19] talk about the collaboration and community trust that, and you’ve already started that a little bit with Thai CDC, but beyond just that, who else do you need in order to help, especially these foreign national victims, unaccompanied refugee minors? what part of the community needs to be at the table?

[00:22:46] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Wow. That’s a big question, Sandie. I mean, it, it’s really broad, right? We need, we need law enforcement. I mean, we often hear from. Certain settings, law enforcement’s the enemy. No. An educated, trained law enforcement is actually a great resource because they see what people are going through on the street.

[00:23:05] Very few of us do, right? So we need law enforcement, we need government agencies. here in LA County we have the Office of Grant Affairs. It’s a great agency that pulls from different parts of LA County government to provide what immigrants need to thrive in our community. When you have a. Third of your community being immigrants, you can’t just say, we’re not going to pay attention to them, right?

[00:23:27] You need nonprofits like, TCDC, but also like, day laborers, uh, Lon, the National Day Laborers Association. You need unions that provide people a upwardly mobile and protected workplace. You need, um, churches. You need synagogues, you need, mosques, all of who provide, especially in the thing strings, no strings attached.

[00:23:54] No expectation of what that person will give back support to their community, especially culturally. Community needs,embassies are great resources because of course they know who their people are. Everybody has a role in this. everyone can can help if for no other reason than demanding that workers are paid fairly.

[00:24:19] So if you see, if you go into a place and the workers don’t seem to be being treated fairly, turn around and walk out.

[00:24:26] Sandie Morgan: vote with your feet.

[00:24:28] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Absolutely. I found out the restaurant that we used to go to for brunch most Sundays with our kids, I found out they had had a huge labor issue. They had threatened their workers. They, they were fined a half a million dollars.

[00:24:42] they did all these cheating. We haven’t gone back. It’s very easy. I still don’t have a good waffle place, but it’s still very easy.

[00:24:50] Sandie Morgan: Oh, that’s, that’s good.

[00:24:52] That’s good. So when I’m out in the community and I want to

[00:24:58] do a better job of, for instance, our faith communities, you mentioned mosques and synagogues and churches. What is the kind of information we can give them? I had this conversation yesterday with someone with some influence in their faith community.

[00:25:18] It’s like, but what do I tell them? I mean, your class is eight weeks long they want like an eight minute version.

[00:25:27] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Right. You know, I think part of it is treatment. If people are being treated well in a business, when you walk in, if the employees are being treated respectfully, if management is standing up for the employees, if you see management coming up and saying it’s your break time, I mean it, it sounds really silly.

[00:25:46] But you know, we have people who work, who report to us working 12, 16, 16 hours and no breaks. Like somebody noticed that. Okay. So that’s part of it. Just we know what kindness versus niceness looks like. Nice is what they show to the customer. Kindness is what they show to their employees, right?

[00:26:06] So kindness.so there’s that. one of the issues I’m facing is I’m, I’m heading two task forces, around the fires. One, the, I call them the Rebuild LA task forces.

[00:26:17] One of them is for building fraud. But the other one is for labor exploitation because we know that laborers in disaster areas are, there’s up to a 70% chance that they will be, exploited for their work and a 30% chance that they will be, uh, that there’s trafficking involved. Okay? So that’s huge. If you are getting a contract done on your house and somebody comes in with a much lower bid than everybody else, you gotta ask yourself why?

[00:26:46] Because. The wood is gonna be the same for everybody. the nails are gonna be the same for everybody. What is the variable? The variable’s gonna be the workers, and so you can ask them, can I see your workman’s comp certificate? Can you know? How do you pay your people? You know what? What is the pay rate you give your workers or your subcontractors, or what do you require from them?

[00:27:10] We may pay more. Upfront, but that’s where we get back to the moral thing. We know that our houses aren’t built on the back of somebody who has been mistreated.

[00:27:21] Sandie Morgan: That is a great. Way to approach this understanding that it’s actually does come back on us as consumers to ask those questions. We do have responsibility in the story to be wise stewards of of our resources. I often go back to when I first started working in this space and someone explained to me the reason why they were buying a product that I proved to them was being produced by slave labor.

[00:27:58] I. In another country and they said to me, well, we have a very small budget and I’m trying to practice good stewardship. And my response was, is it good stewardship if we save money, buta parent in really dire circumstances, can’t afford to buy the books for his son to go to school or the shoes for his daughter to walk the mile to school. It’s better stewardship to invest in people rather than things. So I

[00:28:38] Ryann Gerber Jorban: that.

[00:28:39] Sandie Morgan: Um, if we could go on and on and we will have another conversation. I am sure. I love being part of the labor trafficking subcommittee. I often feel like I have nothing to contribute because I’m not law enforcement, I’m not an attorney.

[00:28:56] And yet at the same time, what you are talking about in these closing moments of today’s episode. Is how important a community is around people and we can all do something there.

[00:29:12] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Absolutely. And I, I, I have to disagree with your general premise that you do not add. Um, you are bringing in. Students who think that they want one thing and are learning that what they are experiencing in the world is very different from what other kids their ages are experiencing. And I, I suspect that if I know you, you do it very subtly.

[00:29:35] You don’t hit ’em over the head with it, you just let them see. What the realities are. And I, I, I’m guessing that your students at the beginning and at the end have very different viewpoints of what they are experiencing. And it’s so important, especially when we’re talking about justice programs. When we talk about criminal justice, we tend to focus on the criminal, and not the justice.

[00:29:59] And the justice isn’t just for the criminal. In fact, it shouldn’t be. It should be for the entire community. We should find just. Outcomes for those who are involved, whether they are the criminal ’cause. I am a big believer in the Constitution and, and all of the, and them having their full rights and again, respect even for what they have done wrong, but also justice for those who have been caught in this and have no choice.

[00:30:27] whether it’s through, forced criminality or being a victim of,you know, a criminal, we need to make sure that we recognize that there’s two sides to that phrase, and I think you do an excellent job of showing both sides of that, that the criminal needs to have their justice, but also the victim does as well.

[00:30:50] And we can do both of those very easily in our system.

[00:30:53] Sandie Morgan: And we can do it together. Thank you so much, Ryann, for being on our podcast today. Oh.

[00:30:59] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Oh, I loved it. Thank you for having me.

[00:31:02] Thank you so much, Ryann, for sharing your insights and expertise with us. Listeners, if you’re interested in hearing more from Ryann, including her impactful presentation at Ensure Justice, we included the YouTube link in the show [email protected].

[00:31:24] If you haven’t visited our site before, be sure to subscribe so you can stay up to date. With all the important information we share, we’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from today’s conversation, invite them to subscribe and join us in learning how to.

[00:31:47] Better protect our communities. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay up to date. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

Commissioner Vicki Reed joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the intersection of juvenile justice and child welfare, highlighting the importance of collaboration, care, and community in supporting vulnerable youth and preventing their exploitation.

Vicki Reed has dedicated her career to child welfare and juvenile justice, with over two decades of experience working with system-involved youth. She holds a degree in law enforcement and a master’s in criminal justice, and has been a strong advocate for vulnerable children in both public and private sectors. Vicki has served as a juvenile probation officer, the director of a youth-serving agency, and has helped shape state-level training for child welfare workers in Kentucky. Beyond her advocacy and service as Juvenile Justice Commissioner of Kentucky, she is also an accomplished author. In her previous appearance on this podcast (episode 246), Vicki discussed her novel The Car Thief. In this episode, she shares insights from her latest novel, Sleight of Hand, which also draws from her extensive experience working with youth.

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice, here in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking.

[00:00:22] Today I’m thrilled to welcome back Commissioner Vicki Reed. To the show, Vicki has dedicated her career to child welfare and juvenile justice, with over two decades of experience working with system involved youth. She holds a degree in law enforcement and a master’s in criminal justice and has been a strong advocate.

[00:00:48] For vulnerable children in both public and private sectors. She has served as a juvenile probation officer, the director of a youth serving agency, and helped shape state level training for child welfare workers in Kentucky beyond her advocacy.

[00:01:11] Her service as Juvenile Justice Commissioner of Kentucky. Vicki is also an accomplished author. In her last episode on the podcast number 246, we talked about her novel Car Thief. If you haven’t listened to that episode. I encourage you to check it out because today we’re diving into her latest novel Sleight of hand, which also draws from her extensive experience

[00:01:47] Well, commissioner Vicki Reed, it is a delight to have you back on the ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

[00:01:55] Vicki: And I’m delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:58] Sandie: Since we talked the first time in episode 2 46 about your book, the Car Thief, and what we learned there about juvenile justice. You’ve written another book you’ve served as. The Kentucky Commissioner of Juvenile Justice, and I’m excited to ask you some questions today about your experience. first of all, I wanna know why you decided to come out of retirement and become the commissioner. Well,

[00:02:32] Vicki: an interesting story because probably nobody was more surprised than I was. I had been retired for a number of years and was really enjoying. consulting and writing and, and speaking and just having my own time to do things. But, when the position came open, I just really was sort of a calling to, to be able to take the, the top position and I’d worked in the agency before, underneath.

[00:02:55] And so to be able to have that, that top position and do all the things that I had always. Wanted to see done was just too good an opportunity to, to pass up. and so it was a, it was a wonderful experience. It was difficult in many ways. And I did learn that you can’t always do what you wanna do because you run into, uh, many issues.

[00:03:14] And one of the big problems right now across the entire nation, maybe the entire world. is it’s very difficult to get staff now so that if you don’t have staff that really sort of inhibits how much programming you can do and how much counseling you can do.

[00:03:27] So, it, it was an interesting experience and I promised to do it through, through the end of one term and I did. And so I’ve retired again and gone back and that’s when I finished, the second book and now I’m doing some consulting work with the National Partnership for Juvenile Services.

[00:03:41] Sandie: So let’s talk about the difference between juvenile justice and criminal justice, adults and youth. What are the different goals?

[00:03:52] Vicki: Well with adult corrections, you know, the, one of the primary things, of course, is public safety, and it’s not that juvenile justice doesn’t have that as well, but there’s a certain, punitive, point with adult corrections that we try to avoid. With, with juvenile. And one of the reasons is that it doesn’t work.

[00:04:11] Uh, we’ve seen that, you know, do you remember all the bootcamp hysteria? Everybody was having bootcamps. Oh, boot, straighten up fly rights and discipline. We’ll put that kid, they’ll learn that, you know, whatever. And then they did the studies and the recidivism rate was out the roof. It was like 80 to 90% scared straight, a complete failure.

[00:04:29] It, all these things that feel good and sound good to folks, but actually when they do the studies. Just don’t work. So what we do know is the more rehabilitative, you know, mental health counseling, pro-social activities, resources, a good education. And the other thing with the kids is if you have a, a 17, 16, 17-year-old who.

[00:04:50] Ends into a life of crime and does it for the next 40, 50, 60 years. You’re spending millions and millions of dollars on that individual. Where if we can, you know, get them going right in, in their teenage years and they can go on and graduate, they get a job, they, whatever, they become a functioning part of our society.

[00:05:09] everybody wins.

[00:05:11] Sandie: That’s a good point. This is a a smart fiscal decision too,

[00:05:16] Vicki: If you wanna look at it just in the hard cold facts that that alone.

[00:05:21] Sandie: But in reality, these. Are young people and they’re valuable and we’re not going, they’re not going to become throwaways, which, I’ve talked to kids who feel like they are throwaways. So let’s talk about the difference between your two books, because they’re a great way to.

[00:05:45] Begin to understand how we take care of kids with special circumstances. They may be living in an abusive environment, a neglect environment, which is abusive, and for their safety for their. Health, they are taken out of the home. So first, usually we see they go into child welfare and are presumably then given a placement in foster care.

[00:06:21] but the juvenile justice is the side where you did all of your work. So your first book that we interviewed you on back in episode number 2 46 was about your side of the house, the juvenile justice, and we met. Kelly and tell us a little bit about Kelly’s background that made him such a great way to teach us about the resources available through juvenile justice

[00:06:53] Vicki: Right. And that was the McCarthy ifand this, this, I, I decided to, and really the impetus for this was I was gonna write a nonfiction book about juvenile justice and I just couldn’t get it going. And I thought, well, what if I took a hypothetical kid and just took him through the system in a typical manner that kids do, where a lot of them.

[00:07:11] Start with child welfare issues and then come into juvenile justice and in Kelly’s case, even beyond. So, that, that was just kind of the whole thing where he was, you know, through the death of a family member, entered care and then, that didn’t work out well. And, you know, he took to the road, ran off, uh, got involved because he was stealing to live into juvenile justice.

[00:07:33] And then again, the theme with both of these books is. The books aren’t just about the kid, they’re about the adults. that impact. And it was not for a few very caring adults, the story could have turned out much different. And so the next book, sleigh of Hand, the one that just, just came out with the card on it.

[00:07:52] And I have to tell you from my book launch, we had cupcakes with edible rice cards tucked in

[00:07:57] Sandie: Oh my goodness. Oh

[00:07:59] Vicki: the kids, read them. They weren’t very TAs, I don’t think. But it, it was a, we had the whole casino thing going

[00:08:03] Sandie: So, before we talk about the book and the story of Alex in your second book, tell me how you chose to use a deck of cards in a book.

[00:08:18] Vicki: Well, and when I was in college, I took a recreation class because it was at, you know how college is with one of those times that you can fill in a nice class thing? And each week we had a different thing. We played pool One week, we did sports things one week. And one week we did magic tricks.

[00:08:34] And I was introduced to a ALI card, and you can look on Amazon for about seven bucks. You can get you a deck. And, uh, this, this is a special deck where if you flip it one way, you see all of like the ace of diamonds and you flip it the other way, it looks like normal cards. Uh, it’s because of the way they’re shaved.

[00:08:51] So anyway, I had that deck of cards and I had. Had in my purse, and I was a probation officer and I had a, a new probation officer. I had this kid who came in and, I mean, he was just like, you know, muttering wouldn’t talk, wouldn’t look at me. I was getting absolutely nowhere and out of desperation, I yanked that card thing out.

[00:09:09] I said, you wanna see a card trick? And just said, here, stick your finger in there. And so I did the card trick and he was just amazed. I mean, all of a sudden he was looking right at me like I was some sort of. You know, ’cause after he pulled out four or five asy diamonds out of the same deck and I kept showing him their regular, he thought I was really some magical person.

[00:09:26] And I have used those cards for, for 50 years out of all the things I learned in college, that was the most useful.

[00:09:31] Sandie: My goodness. Okay, so, so you share that trick at the beginning of this second book. So the first book was framed by our juvenile justice system. Now our. Star in sleigh of hand is in child welfare, and it’s very clear that this young boy is close to crossing over into territory that will end up putting him into juvenile justice.

[00:10:07] And so with 64 placements finding. A foster care home that is going to be sustainable seems impossible. when I read in the first chapter, 64 placements, I thought, what, so tell me what you know about placements.

[00:10:32] Vicki: well it’s, it’s interesting because, you know, usually placements for younger kids are fairly easily done. Uh, and I knew do know that child welfare. Through the pandemic also had issues with having enough foster homes, and that’s always a, an issue, but it’s obviously the more difficult a kid gets, the harder it’s going to be to find a foster care placement for them and.

[00:10:53] Sandie: you

[00:10:53] Vicki: We had kids from that we would offer to, not even just foster care, but group homes, residential care, children’s homes, you know, the Green Valley, blah, blah, blah, and all that. And some of them would charge a thousand dollars a day and we would refer a kid and they wouldn’t take them, for even a thousand dollars a day.

[00:11:11] Sandie: stop there. A thousand dollars a day.

[00:11:15] Vicki: Yes,

[00:11:16] Sandie: So, so, okay, so I’m gonna be your average reader and tell you some of the things I thought when I started reading this, 64 placements. First thing popped in my mind is, what is wrong with this kid? What? What do you say to me?

[00:11:34] Vicki: Right. Well, and I think anybody would think that, well, this must be a really horrible, awful kid who’s gone through 64 placements, and I won’t, put it on rose colored glasses. A lot of times it is. Any kid who’s had 64 placements is more than likely having some issues. But the thing is, it’s like, is it.

[00:11:52] The kid that’s caused the 64 placements, or is it the 64 placements that’s messing up the kid? Because just like in Alex, a lot of times he moves from foster homes that have no, no reason, that of fault of his own. You know, his one of, one of his favorite foster homes, they’re moving to California and they don’t take him with him.

[00:12:12] Just because, and we, we’ve had instances where foster parents will say, well, I’ll take a, a youth from the, school age from six to 12, and on the kid’s 13th birthday, they say they’re no longer in our age range. Take ’em out.

[00:12:24] Sandie: Wow. So.

[00:12:26] Vicki: it could be a, a number of different things.

[00:12:28] Sandie: things. So one of the things that I enjoyed as I was reading is it felt like I knew what Alex was thinking when he said something. I found out why he said it.

[00:12:42] That changed my attitude towards him. And the reason I think this book is great for students thinking about going into juvenile justice or child welfare. Is because you weave in the experts as you help us experience what the child is saying and why they’re saying it. Can you give me an example of an expert that you wove into the story?

[00:13:13] Vicki: Well, I’m a, I’m a big fan of Charlie Apple. Stein who was, helped her with my first book, who wrote No Bad kids.com, or that’s his website. And the book was No Bad Kids. and so I’ve used some of his techniques through the years and he and I got to be buddies. And so, I said, I’m, I’m gonna use some of these in your book.

[00:13:30] And he was like, oh, that, well, that’s fine. And one, one of my favorite things when, when Sam, the caseworker first meets with Alex, and,it just shows you the difference that. Sam Smart and knows what he’s doing. And he says to him, he goes, wow, 64 placements. That’s quite a number. How did you manage that? And the kid looks at him and says, no one tells me what to do. And Sam said is thinking in his head what I call automatic adult responses. Well, that’s the kind of thing that got you into a place like this. Well, I’m telling you what to do. Well, that you know that you’ll never get anywhere in life with an attitude.

[00:14:04] And do you think that kid hadn’t heard those kind of things all his life and he’s just. Another adult, whatever. But Sam is smart, and so Sam looks at him and he says, ah, an independent thinker. I get that. And the kid looks at him like, oh, this cat’s different.

[00:14:23] Sandie: So we’re learning how to change our attitude while we’re reading the book. Instead of saying what we wanna say, our automatic adult response, we actually follow the guidance of what’s his name again? We’re gonna put a link.

[00:14:41] Vicki: Charlie Stein.

[00:14:42] Sandie: Charlie Stein, and wow, what a way to learn because now I am waiting to see if it works.

[00:14:49] And it did. It did. Giving a child some control is like basic parenting. I remember when my daughter was two years old and I said, put your shoes on. We’re going, and she said, no. I was like, oh, wait a second. I stopped and then I said, do you wanna put your left shoe on first or your right shoe on first?

[00:15:12] Just giving kids an opportunity to make a choice. It put some of the power back in their hands. Um, when, when. Alex finally gets into a placement. One of the things that I learned from reading this story is how important it was to have a community around that child. Can you talk about the key people that helped that placement be sustainable?

[00:15:46] And it was his last placement. Oops, that was a spoiler alert. I’m sorry.

[00:15:51] Vicki: okay. That’s okay. That’s okay with I, I tend to have happy endings. I’ll just put it, that will really spoil there. Um, well, and that’s one of the things that’s, that’s very important that between looking at. Traditional normal foster care and therapeutic foster care is that you need to think of it more as a residential placement in a home.

[00:16:12] and you, and like Alex probably wouldn’t have made it in that foster home with Matt, the foster parent, if he didn’t have Sam helping them out and other people. So, you know, one of my, one of my gripes on this is we might pay a residential center a thousand dollars a day for a kid, but we pay foster care.

[00:16:31] $68 or whatever. And some of the foster placements that we use where we had success, we had a backup foster parent. We had aides that came in and took the kid out all day and tired ’em out. We had special educational programs. We, we could take that same money. And hopefully much less because you’re not having to pay room board, you know, the expensive staffing type things and surround that kid with services that, the wraparound approach that, that they do sometimes also nicely with kids who are still home and you, you basically, what does this kid need?

[00:17:03] And it might be some pro-social activities, things to keep ’em busy and you know, mental health counseling. So if we wrap those services around a kid, we’re gonna see a lot better. I just have to read one little thing. It’s like. I, I didn’t even know this one, right? There’s an epigraph, that’s what it’s called when you see a poem in the first book.

[00:17:20] And, and this one, this thing was on the his, on my office for 50 years and I got to put it in the book and it’s, he drew a circle that shut me out. Heretic, rebel, a thing to fly, but love and I had the wit to win. We drew a circle that took him in. And so that was sort of the whole thing for the book, is that we had these adults who come to, you know, assist this kid.

[00:17:42] Sandie: Wow. That’s so good. So let’s talk just for a second about pro-social activities. That’s a nice word. I like it. I’m gonna write it down. What does it mean

[00:17:56] Vicki: It means that you can’t just say no. You have to have give thing kids something to say yes to. So you just can’t say, don’t use drugs, don’t do this, don’t whatever. You know, what am I supposed to sit in my house? And a lot of times what I have learned from my time in detention, we, one of the detention centers here in Lexington is not very far from the Kentucky Horse Park.

[00:18:16] Folks know us. People out of the country, they know Lexington, Kentucky, world famous for our horses. And most of those kids have never even been there. It’s two miles away. And I’m always amazed at the things they haven’t done. They’ve never. Been on the Easter egg hunt. They’ve never flown a kite. They’ve never walked in a creek.

[00:18:33] They never saw pet a horse. They have lived such confined lives, and so one of the things is just exposing kids to the good things that are out there and giving them things that they. Can enjoy and do, and that will help build competencies and competency build self-worth. Self-worth means you’re more likely to be successful.

[00:18:55] So, you know, it’s great to have the kid in counseling, but maybe instead of three times a week going to counseling, two times a week they go to counseling and one time they go, uh, a music lesson or an art therapy class.

[00:19:06] Sandie: So I’m gonna start a drive to collect used saxophones and give them out at juvenile detention centers. That sounds like fun.

[00:19:16] Uh, there’s lots of research that shows that developmental assets reduce some of the. Issues that we call behavior problems just because the kids have something positive to do. So pro-social activities, put that in with your deck of cards for your tricks to help young people become stronger. Um, so when I’m thinking about some of the.

[00:19:50] Experts that you wove into the story and we just talked about,uh, why can’t I remember his name, apple.are there some others that you helped us, begin to experience so we could understand Alex’s way of thinking and why the adults around him didn’t understand why he did things?

[00:20:19] Vicki: I mean, there’s a number of I, some of the names are just not gonna come to me. It’s like sand and the reindeer. I know ’em when you say ’em,

[00:20:25] Sandie: Uhhuh

[00:20:25] Vicki: think of them all off the top of my head. But there’s a number of, of really good folks, and Rick Miller is another one who did Kids at Hope. which is one thing he was talking about that that.

[00:20:35] Hope drives humanity that these kids have to have a reason. If you think nothing’s ever gonna get better, then there’s no reason to try. and so this was sort of with Alex’s thing, he was like, just, you know, he’d shut down. I don’t, I’m not gonna care, I’m not gonna do anything they want me to do. And that, that’s one of the things we go back to the pro-social or, you know, protective factors we, we talk about with kids is that sometimes you just sort of have to rewire the brain and that.

[00:21:01] Positive experiences help undo some of those adverse childhood experiences, those ACEs that people talk about so much. So that’s another thing to keep in mind with the kid is that, they need to, uh, and the, oh, I’m trying to think of his name, Richard something, the big guru on violence with kids.

[00:21:19] He said, if you show me a kid at a school and he has one adult in that school who thinks that kid is great, he’s not gonna be a problem. It’s the kid who don’t have anybody that you have to worry about.

[00:21:30] Sandie: So commissioner, the number of placements that your hero in the second book Alex had was 64. What do statistics tell us about the hope he had for his future year?

[00:21:50] Vicki: Well, I think obviously after that, you know, you’re sort of not wanted obviously, and. One of the statistics that you know, he’d shared before was that kids who have five or more placements are 90% likely to enter the juvenile justice system. And there’s several studies that have been done that one I think was put out by Georgetown Law, which is a horrifying statistic to think that if you’ve moved five different times in foster care, that you’re almost certain to go to juvenile justice.

[00:22:18] And so one of my things is, well, if we know this, why don’t we take that information and. Flag it. After two or three placements, this kid gets a mark in his file and everybody in the office around child welfare or whatever, sits down and says, we, we need to stop this. We need to see what we need to do to make sure that this kid isn’t going on to four or 5, 6, 7 placements and, and on.

[00:22:41] And this also came up from Kentucky. There was a piece of legislation about from the schools and uh, because the superintendents had so many kids during pandemic and with the opioid epidemic. In their school systems and they said, we have these kids and they’re just changing schools all the time. They change a plate.

[00:22:58] We had a seventh grade boy who’d been in four different middle schools and that year’s only half over. and they get pulled out for foster care appointments. They get pulled out for court and they’re not, they’re getting very poor education. So that’s another way, you know, the, the good education that we can get kids that they don’t fall behind, you know, do they need tutoring to catch up?

[00:23:17] Uh, can we do some special things? Can we, can we do things for these kids that we do for our own? Because you and I put our kids in music lessons and sports and we take ’em on family vacations and stuff, and we need to do that same thing for these kids.

[00:23:31] Sandie: if we move, they move with us. So, um, the connection here with our, our kids who are more vulnerable to being commercially sexually exploited or recruited into labor trafficking, Is born out by other interviews that I’ve done with survivors.

[00:23:52] Most recently I interviewed, a gal, Alia, in episode number 3 38, and she had been in the system. That’s how we talked about it. And she had recommendations about how we can do a better job before she ended up in juvenile justice. And I think you’ve got some recommendations because these kids, we call them dual system kids, they were in child welfare.

[00:24:29] Now they. They became system involved with juvenile justice, which changes the expectations for their future. They get with juvenile justice, they have access to rehabilitation, but they have to make some choices to actually do that work. And they need people around them like your character did, like Matt and Sam and others in the community.

[00:24:57] So let’s talk about the recommendations.

[00:25:00] Vicki: One of them, just before I forget it because you’d mentioned the human trafficking. Uh,one thing we know is kids do best in families. So I’m not saying. There aren’t any kids that should go to what we call congregate care, which is group homes and the residential, but

[00:25:15] Sandie: Congregate care should be for just the youth. They really need those complex services that just cannot be handled in a family situation. And there are some kids like that, but for most kids, even some that you might think, are family, can’t be successful like Alex can be.

[00:25:33] Vicki: And one of the reasons that it’s best to be in families is. We were talking about human trafficking is that, you know, there are traffickers out there. They know where that group home is, and they know those kids that come and go, and they target them for a couple of reasons. One is because they know probably they don’t have much of anybody that cares about ’em because they’re in a group home.

[00:25:52] Because they’ve had trauma and so many vulnerabilities, they, they target them. So that’s one reason among many that we ought to keep kids in a family situation as as much as possible. But the other thing is, is just to realize we shouldn’t silo these kids into different organizations. You’ve got child welfare, you’ve got juvenile justice, and the one we didn’t talk about was mental health.

[00:26:14] And I know you have some background in that, uh, type thing. And so it’s. You know, it’s the same kids. So you have a girl who is either being sexually abused or feels like she’s at risk of it. Okay? She’s a child welfare kid right now. She runs away because she’s scared that, that somebody, either they’re doing something to her or they’re about to.

[00:26:34] So now she’s a status offender. She can be charged as a status offender,

[00:26:37] Sandie: What? What’s a status offender? Is that like you get in trouble for something you haven’t done yet?

[00:26:43] Vicki: It is what you can do if you’re a kid. That’s an offense. That’s not an offense for an adult. So if you don’t go to school, you can be charged with truancy. I, as an adult, if I don’t go to work, they don’t charge me with, you know, you didn’t go to work and lock me up. Uh, run beyond control of your parents and in different states, call ’em, you know, children in need of services and.

[00:27:02] Persons in need of services and that sort of thing, but they’re, they’re kids that you can oftentimes put in detention or in some other long-term care because of that status. So, you know, so you have a girl who runs away now she’s in that different category, and then so she steals to eat and she gets picked up for shoplifting.

[00:27:21] Well now she’s a juvenile justice, but she’s got mental health kids. She’s a mental health kid. It’s all the same kid. They all have the same needs, and so there needs to be a whole lot more collaboration. and some states do that very well, and some do not. Some have it very divided. Once they’re yours, they’re yours, and there’s a lot of finger pointing.

[00:27:39] I don’t want ’em, you take ’em and you spend your money on ’em. Uh uh. So we need to have, uh, Indiana does a good job. They have a, a particular, they have a whole dual status team where if they’re involved in both agencies by law, they have to meet. And work for the best interest of that kid. So there, there needs to be a lot more collaboration among them.

[00:27:59] Sandie: I love that and, and you’ve modeled that in your transition from being more on the criminal justice side of things and juvenile justice probation officer, and then to becoming a commissioner and making. Your dreams for change start to at least make progress. So as we wind up here, what is your call to action to people who read one or both of your books?

[00:28:32] Why should they read the book and what should they do afterwards?

[00:28:38] Vicki: One of the reasons I wrote these books as I hope people in the biz. Would enjoy them, but it was really more for the general public because people don’t know. And the biggest thing is to become informed. People just, you know, they don’t know. They think boot camps are great or they just think, you know, all foster care is either girly great or really bad.

[00:28:57] so this is, this is a way to take people. And because everything is confidential, you can’t get behind those doors as a. Person just on the street. So this is a way to just expose people and have them understand who these kids are. And if you can help in some way, being a foster parent’s, great.

[00:29:14] I that would be wonderful. And I realize that’s not for everybody, but you can do other things. You can, I’ve got my casa blanket back here, uh, here, here in America anyway, you can become a court advocate where you’re assigned to a kid and you become their advocate as they go through the system. If nothing else, you can help donate to foster care organizations.

[00:29:33] So they do have those clarinets and saxophones and can afford to pay for music lessons and art lessons and so forth. So there’s many ways that that people can help.

[00:29:44] Sandie: I love it. Commissioner Vicki Reed, I am sure you’re gonna write a third book and I will be looking forward to that episode. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank

[00:29:57] Vicki: Thank you very much.

[00:29:59] Sandie: Vicki, thank you so much for joining us again and for sharing your experience and powerful storytelling. Listeners, I encourage you to take the next step by visiting our [email protected]. If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss any of the important conversations.

[00:30:22] We are having. We’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from today’s episode, whether they’re working in child welfare education, or simply care about supporting youth in their communities, invite them to subscribe and join our. Podcast community. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay updated on future episodes and resources.

[00:30:56] Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

[00:30:59]

Andrea Foster joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how integrating health services within school systems enhances student well-being and functions as a vital strategy to prevent human trafficking.

Andrea Foster is currently the administrator of Integrated Health within Student Services for the Orange County Department of Education. She provides supportive services and resources to promote healthy environments for over 400,000 students and their families across the county. She wants students to be able to access their education and become productive, successful adults. She has 24 years of school nursing experience across multiple settings and was recently a guest speaker at the annual Ensure Justice Conference.

[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking here at the Global Center for Women in Justice Vanguard University. This is episode number 343, integrating Health Services in school strategies to keep students safe.

Andrea Foster is currently the administrator of Integrated Health within the student services for the division of the Orange County Department of Education. She provides supportive services and resources to promote healthy environments to over 400,000 students and their families across.

County. She wants students to be able to access their education and become productive, successful adults. She has 24 years of school nursing experience across [00:02:00] multiple settings, and recently she was a guest speaker at our. Annual Ensure Justice Conference, and I think one of the things I loved, Andrea, was how you advocated for where the kids are and what they need.

So welcome to the show.

Thank you Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

so let’s start off first with a little bit of an understanding of where your role in Department of Education fits in this concept of MTSS. What is MTSS and why is it such a big deal here in California?

[00:02:46] Andrea Foster: So MTSS stands for the multi-tiered system of support, and this is a tiered system, that we can utilize or a framework. That we can utilize to support students wherever they’re at, and [00:03:00] whatever their needs are. So, tier one is our supports that we provide to all students. these are things like preventative measures.

Other supports like vision and hearing screenings. on the academic side, it’s gonna be your normal academic, accommodations that are made during the school day. Once you get into tier two, this tier is for a select group of students, so students who need some additional support. Typically for support services personnel, these are kids that have been identified as needing some additional support.

And usually those supports are provided in a group setting. And so again, small number of students, isn’t, isn’t a accommodation that is applied to all students, and typically provided in a group setting. these may include, Small group settings

such as maybe a counseling session, with a group talking specifically [00:04:00] about an issue that’s on campus or on the academic side.

It could be a small group session, small, to provide additional support with reading or additional supports with math. So it MTSS really accommodates kids. In every path that they’re on, in the setting and really covers them as a whole child. When we’re looking at tier three interventions, those interventions are really very specific and individualized to a student.

So, if you’re looking at health in particular, these are gonna be kiddos who have five oh fours or who have IEPs or who have specialized healthcare plans, for chronic medical conditions. On the academic side, you would see again, IEPs with academic accommodations or five oh fours with accommodations, to support these kids so that they can, be successful.

[00:04:51] Sandie Morgan: I love that. And so now I’m looking at your job title and this word that’s in it, [00:05:00] integrated student wellness. What does that mean in your everyday administration?

[00:05:08] Andrea Foster: So I, when I am doing programming or providing professional development, or really working collaboratively across Orange County, I’m looking at how health integrates with the whole child. you know, you can’t just look at the child in, in one, domain. You know, we talk about Maslow’s hierarchy of need, and you have to meet all of those needs before.

Anyone can be successful and actualize, their potential. And so, for integrated health, I’m really looking at where health is a cross section with all of these other components. So whether it be mental health, whether it be housing, whether it be, other things that are going on in their lives, as well as their academic status.

So how do we integrate all of this for the success of the student?

[00:05:58] Sandie Morgan: and when we’re [00:06:00] looking at different school environments and trying to integrate this when they have challenges at home? I think we put a lot of our hope in the ability of our schools to become a safety net, and our Ensure Justice Conference was titled This Year, safety Nets.

We’re thinking about online safety to some extent, but just community safety nets. How can we be more.I guess my question is how can we help in those integrated ’cause I think the community has to know how to be part of that MTSS model.

[00:06:48] Andrea Foster: So I would say, just being aware of that multi-tiered system of support and how school districts utilize that to support their students. So really being able to understand the [00:07:00] language. you wouldn’t necessarily, as a community member or a family member need to know what falls within each of those.

Just knowing that that is. What school districts use as a framework and being able to ask, you know, how can the multi-tiered system of support support my student who is experiencing. Fill in the blank. experiencing homelessness, experiencing, a chronic health condition, experiencing academic needs, experiencing trafficking.

so just really understanding the language so that, so that they know what to ask for when they’re at a school site.

[00:07:40] Sandie Morgan: So when I’m thinking about what that looks like, that integrated support, I am thinking about it from a pediatric nursing background and all of my years of communication with school nurses, and there is a [00:08:00] major focus, like in that first column in.

MTSS of prevention that, I mean hearing and brushing your teeth and all of those kinds of things. Where does this aspect of prevention fall When we’re trying to help our kids who need a safety net and the school is a key part of that.

[00:08:26] Andrea Foster: So I think it’s multi-tiered here. So the first I would say is really being able to identify, and monitor for red flags. And so that’s really important. and part of that is. For school district is really providing that training so that personnel are aware of what those red flags are and understand what it looks like to identify patterns, and then be able to build a safety net, of trusting relationships.

You know, creating a, a calm environment, a [00:09:00] non-judgmental space where students feel comfortable to be able to share information, whether that’s in the health office, their. Counselor, their social worker, their teacher, really everyone on a school site is responsible, for creating this safe space and building these relationships with students.

and then using open-ended, language with students, which gives them an opportunity to think, and to provide their own language back. And then checking in with kids regularly to make sure that they have the supports that they need and, if something comes up, they’re, they have the time and the space to be able to share.

[00:09:40] Sandie Morgan: let’s. Let’s do kind of a role play here. I am a kid who chronically comes to school, tardy late. when I was going to school, that meant I would get like a red mark next to my name. What would you be [00:10:00] training the person in the front office to do instead?

[00:10:04] Andrea Foster: So really I would be training the health office because that’s my role. but I would say for. For all staff and, and this has kind of changed in the last couple years, is really again, with the family members, creating that safe space, letting them know that we care about the students and that we want the students to be there and that we’re there to support them, whatever they’re going through.

whether it’s the students or the families, you know, providing resources, so that the student is able to come to school and feel supported enough that they can, access their education and so that families feel like their students are safe at school, and getting what they need.

[00:10:48] Sandie Morgan: I love that because I know, sometimes. If you think about a nine or 10-year-old, who’s late, they aren’t the ones responsible for getting out the [00:11:00] door, finding transportation, and so something else is going on. And so I wanna find a way for that child not to start late in the classroom already feeling chastised and in trouble and raising the.

Anxiety bar that reduces their ability to learn. So thinking through some of those things, I think those are part of the red flags that we’re working on. And I know in the health office, when I was in your training, I was. Very impressed with how many protocols are already in place when kids come in, and those protocols are designed for making sure kids feel supported so that they can access their education.

I think that’s kind of a [00:12:00] new, not. I, I wouldn’t say it’s a new, I think it’s an emerging best practice that we’re not here to, chastise a kid who really may not have any control. We want them to be successful learners. What would you recommend to parents who are struggling and they. Drop their kids off.

What could a parent do to make that a smoother transition? Because maybe they’ve got health issues, they’ve got, they’re in a generation where they’re taking care of. Older adults in their family, their caregivers at both end, or they have a work where their schedule is very different than their kids’ school.

How can parents access help in that space?

[00:12:56] Andrea Foster: Well, I think there are a couple things. One, building a [00:13:00] positive relationship with your school system. uh,whether that’s your teacher, your child’s teacher, whether that’s the principal, whether it’s the worker in the health office, having someone who. You feel confident and confident in that can support you in some of this work.

And then, because they, they will also be providing resources to you when you need those resources. So being comfortable enough to, to ask the questions to those people. But I would also say, having a warm handoff. So if, if a student is really struggling on a particular day or there’s something going on at home. Parents don’t necessarily need to provide all of that information, but what would be helpful is providing even just a simple comment, maybe to the teacher or the principal, to handle that student with care that day. so that, if there’s something coming up that teacher knows that there’s something going on at [00:14:00] home, and they can provide some additional support.

Or if, there’s a test that day, for example, maybe that’s not the best day for that student to take a test. And so the teacher or the administrator really knowing or, or your support person really knowing, that that student needs some additional TLC that day sometimes is really beneficial.

[00:14:22] Sandie Morgan: I love that. Years ago at Ensure Justice, we focused on a program called Handle With Care, and you didn’t have to provide any background information. And then Orange County, we launched our own version, I think it’s called Focus, and the idea of focusing on the child, not what’s happening, but. Knowing that maybe they might have missed breakfast because of whatever happened in their community or in their home.

So that’s an an encouraging piece [00:15:00] of this integrated services to our kids. Let’s move over to talking about education as prevention and where do you see that in your work and in what parents can do to better support their kids? I.

[00:15:21] Andrea Foster: So I would say school nursing in particular does a lot of education in the health office, and a lot of preventative, health education, in regards to bicy ebi safety in regards to, Diabetic management in regards to chronic health conditions. marijuana use, you know, so there’s a lot of preventative education that occurs in the health office.

but it also occurs across the campus, you know, when. Students, are with an administrator. There may be some additional preventative, education that occurs when they’re in PE [00:16:00] class, when they’re in health class. they’re getting a lot of preventative information and that’s so vital, that they have the information so that when they are making decisions, that they’re making decisions, educated decisions.

[00:16:14] Sandie Morgan: And this kind of leads to the panel that you participated on at Ensure Justice. The title of that panel was connected and protected. The Role of Schools in Empowering Students for Digital Wellness. So here’s where. A lot of the work that I did as a pediatric nurse was hands-on, take their temperature, monitor them, deliver medicine, but digital wellness is in, in your space of integrated health.

So what does that look like in in schools?

[00:16:57] Andrea Foster: So everybody is responsible for [00:17:00] digital safety. this isn’t just a parental issue. we know that our kids are online. Much of the day, whether it’s for academics or whether it’s for entertainment. so in the, in the education set setting, it’s really important and incumbent on us to really provide the education of where the pitfalls lie.

how to prevent those pitfalls so students understand, why people would want their data. They understand.how to really look at what’s being asked and whether or not that that’s something that they should provide in any online component, as well as really starting to look at how much they are online and are there other opportunities.

You know that they can utilize their online platforms, but also utilize other opportunities in the classroom that [00:18:00] support each of those. And so just really taking a look at it. And then, you know, we talked a little bit about those red flags, you know, really looking at. Asking the students, what they’re working with and, and what online platforms are they utilizing because we are gonna start to see some of those patterns,specifically some of those patterns where we see kids who are on specific platforms and, that promote these unhealthy challenges, that students often find themselves in the midst of, and, you know, have health.

Have health outcomes that are not positive or have other things that happen in their lives because of those particular challenges. And so just really asking the question of those students, as well as providing that education of, of what’s really happening in the world and, and having a discussion about it.

[00:18:55] Sandie Morgan: wow and finding safe ways to have those conversations [00:19:00] is. The role of our educators in the classroom, and you, you already mentioned, are they using these devices for their academic journey or for entertainment? So when it’s part of their academics, taking it away.

Is not going to solve the problem and may actually limit, their empowerment. Now, you talked about unhealthy challenges. Let’s just talk about that in more plain language. What is that looking like in our schools today?

[00:19:38] Andrea Foster: So I would say probably one of the biggest ones that we, I think everybody heard about, was the, was it the Tide pods or it was the, pods that you put

[00:19:51] Sandie Morgan: yeah, Uhhuh.

[00:19:52] Andrea Foster: and, and kids were to challenging each other to consume those, which was creating a lot of health [00:20:00] issues. Which, you know, if you look at it from an academic standpoint, not only is it a health issue, but it keeps them outta school, which then becomes an academic issue as well.

but, some of these other challenges, um, there was one here just recently where, adults and, and. Children were challenging each other to run and jump on these really thin rails, and try to, to slide down these really thin rails, um, of which a lot of people broke bones, um, had traumatic head injuries.

again, you know, which prevents them from doing the other things in their life that they should be doing. So really helping students understand that these challenges really aren’t, A good, a good use of their time, and the safety hazards that go along with them.

[00:20:49] Sandie Morgan: And I don’t, I think so much when we talk about online safety, we’re thinking more about some, a child being groomed, and we’ve talked about that on this podcast a lot, and I’ll [00:21:00] put links to some of those. But this idea that physical safety can be compromised by online engagement is something we are not always paying a lot of attention to.

The, the other thing that you just mentioned that makes me kind of curious ’cause you said, and adults doing it too. I have this idea that we have put a lot of pressure on teachers, educators, Professionals in our education community to keep our kids safe online. And the kids are digital natives.

They’ve grown up. I have freshmen in my class right now who from the time they were in kindergarten, had a device in their hands in the classroom. And yet I want someone like you to be responsible for keeping all these kids safe. And every platform is a [00:22:00] new experience for us. We are asking. Adult professionals to add a new skillset, and I think one of the things that you’ve done in Orange County with the number of workshops for school professionals in integrated health is try to provide the resources to help.

That community come up to speed to be able to, respond appropriately. What’s your biggest challenge in that space?

[00:22:38] Andrea Foster: I think the biggest challenge is that technology is just moving so fast that it’s very difficult to keep up with what the next big trend is gonna be, and so. When you talk about providing preventative education,you’re really looking at how do we get the information to them before they [00:23:00] have the opportunity to access whatever we are trying to prevent.

And, in this space right now, it almost feels impossible. And, and I, I would say not only for educators, but for community members and our, Our legislatures and our families, you know, it, it’s just moving so, so fast that the next new thing is there before you even know it’s gonna be a problem.

[00:23:26] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And the quick response that seems like it would fix it is, let’s just take it all away. how effective do you see that as a strategy?

[00:23:41] Andrea Foster: So I don’t think it is a, I don’t think it’s a doable strategy. We have come to a point, where we are moving so fast in technology that it would almost be impossible to take it away. not to mention the fact that you talked about your freshmen who [00:24:00] are, are native to this world. it would be harmful to them.

As well as there is a lot of good that technology is bringing us. it’s decreasing some of the amount of the mundane and tedious things, that, that technology can take care of, which frees us up to do other things that are more important. it’s also the information age, you know, it’s not just all of the, YouTubes and tiktoks and, all of those platforms, it really is being utilized for education. And so to take it away, I, I don’t think, I don’t see that as an, as an option. not at this time. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:45] Sandie Morgan: I, yeah, I can’t imagine teaching. I do. I even do attendance. I. Online and it captures it, and then the registrar’s office has it. So I’m not filling out, forms, which means then [00:25:00] I have time to engage my students and talk about what’s happening in their lives. And, and I think that’s one of the things we have to be aware of is what is the trade off?

How am I using that to benefit my role as an educator? when we were talking about this on the panel about digital wellness, the idea of empowering the students, what are some tips for making sure that kids understand their ability to choose well?

[00:25:41] Andrea Foster: Well, I am a big proponent for teaching anyone to be a good advocate for themselves, whether we’re in a medical space, and they’re advocating for their own health, where whether we’re in the academic space and they’re advocating for whatever they need to [00:26:00] support them in their. Ability to be successful.

It’s the same thing with our media. Really giving them the information that they need, to make good decisions, but also giving them a voice so that they can advocate for themselves what’s working, what’s not working, and then again, creating that safe space where they have an opportunity to share, their advocacy for what they need.

[00:26:29] Sandie Morgan: so what would that look like for say, a fifth grader?

[00:26:34] Andrea Foster: So, what it could look like is if a fifth grader was feeling like, Maybe there’s something online that makes them uncomfortable or there’s someone online asking them for information that makes them uncomfortable, then they would have that space, safe space to be able to advocate for themselves, be able to ask questions about, I’m on [00:27:00] this particular platform and this is what I’m being asked.

I is, is this the right, is this appropriate? Or I’ve been playing this game and my PlayStation says that I need to give it access to my firewall, which would allow them to get in.into their system is, is that the right thing to do because it, you know, after what you’ve just taught me, maybe it’s not the right thing to do.

So really giving them an opportunity to ask those questions. and then maybe not in, maybe not giving them a direct answer, maybe showing them where they can find the answer and supporting them in looking that information up. So that really becomes that advocacy piece where they’re learning. they have the safe space, and they’re able to ask the questions.

[00:27:49] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And then they can take the next step instead of us being like the sheriff going around checking on everybody. I have this [00:28:00] sense that when kids learn to self-advocate, they also, in their little community can become a protective factor. Because they talk to their friends and they say, no, no, no.

You should not listen to that guy on your PlayStation. You need to block him. And the the, I think this has to carry over in homes as well. And the idea that you get to ask all those questions if something is considered. Something you can’t talk about, then we don’t empower our kids to respond and and be more self-reliant and confident in their online experience.

When we were at the conference, you talked about [00:29:00] how, An adult can be a protective factor. And I actually have a quote, you said, every child is one trusting adult away from fill in the blank. And online safety is one aspect. Some of these other things, that you’ve mentioned that result in physical.

Injuries are part of it, but that one, trusted adult. We have put a lot of burden on teachers and on parents, but not every kid has developed that relationship with, A teacher or they haven’t had a stable home life, they’ve had multiple placements in foster care. Tell me about your definition of a trusted adult.

[00:29:58] Andrea Foster: Well, I would say, first of all, [00:30:00] I borrowed that from the California Department of Education, so I wanna give them credit, for that statement. but a trusted adult is someone who gives a, a person, an individual, an opportunity, to be heard, an opportunity to have a voice, and feel like they have a safe space where they can utilize that voice.

And so. People who are around the students, if they can provide those opportunities for students, not only will they, give the student an opportunity to voice, whatever’s going on in their lives, but they also give ’em the opportunity to build a trusting relationship. and it’s interesting when you’re in education, sometimes you don’t.

You don’t know what happens to your students after they leave you, but there’s not a greater feeling of when they come back and they say, you know what? You made a difference in my life. And you don’t remember specifically what you [00:31:00] did other than you gave them an opportunity to, to have a voice and gave them a space where they could use it.

[00:31:07] Sandie Morgan: Wow, that’s so good. So, as we look at this idea of the community response to. Integrated health. Is there something that our community can contribute to their local school that will help improve the opportunities for kids to be safer online, to have healthier opportunities and be more supported in education?

[00:31:44] Andrea Foster: I would say be a part of your community, whether you are a community member, whether you’re a family member, whether you’re an agency that’s providing services, get involved. That’s really [00:32:00] what community schools have always been about, is bringing services to the school site to support students and their families.

And so understand what your board priorities are, understand where they’re spending their money. Um And get involved. Be a part of helping them determine where that money is being spent. Work at your school sites, volunteer at your school sites. understand what your board of education and what your school stands for.

What are their, what are their goals? What are their objectives? And then participate, in all of that.

[00:32:40] Sandie Morgan: We recently did an interview with a former DEA agent, and we talked about following the money, so I love that your advice is so practical. We talk about things at a, at a kind of 30,000 foot level, but. What [00:33:00] I heard from you when I participated on site in one of your workshops, what I heard from you in Ensure Justice and what I hear from today is that it is a community response and being a trusted adult.

Is part of making sure our kids are safe, whether they’re online or out in our communities, and I’m just grateful that we get to partner and keep partnering with our community, and the Department of Education. I encourage our listeners find out what’s going on in your department of education. I love the idea of.

School board meetings, I’d ask people, when is the last time that you went to your school board meeting? And I know people who have never been to a school board meeting, it’s a fun thing to get to do and they let [00:34:00] you ask questions and they appreciate parents and community leaders being involved as so think about those are such good recommendations.

Last word from you, Andrea.

[00:34:14] Andrea Foster: I would say just stay involved. working with schools is one of the best things that I have ever done. And, I would encourage all community members, stakeholder members, family members, get involved with your school setting. it really takes a village, and this is an amazing community, to partner with.

[00:34:32] Sandie Morgan: Thank you so much for being part of our ending Human Trafficking podcast. We wanna start right where the kids are in building strategies for prevention, and I wanna be one of those trusted adults to our kids. Thank you.

Andrea, it’s been such a pleasure having you with us.

Thank you for the important work you’re doing and for sharing [00:35:00] it with us and to our listeners. If you found this conversation impactful, don’t keep it to yourself. Share it with a friend, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss a new episode. Don’t forget to check out the show notes, helpful resources, and more on our website at endinghumantrafficking.org.

We’d also love to stay connected with you, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and help us grow this community committed to ending human trafficking. Thanks again for listening. Be ready for another episode in two weeks.

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Jamie Macintosh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how peer education is transforming human trafficking prevention in schools through the Safe Community Safe Kids Program.

Jamie Macintosh joined the Global Center for Women and Justice as the program coordinator for the Samueli Foundation Grant: Safe Community, Safe Kids Program. She is an alumnus of Vanguard University and has a single-subject teaching credential in social science and a college counseling certificate from UCLA. She has extensive experience working as a middle and high school teacher, a school counselor, and an administrator in both private and public education. Passionate about outreach, Jamie has traveled with students on trips to Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America.

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice, right here in Orange County, California. This is episode number 342. Peer educators to build safe communities.

[00:00:20] And I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan. This is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking. I’m very glad to welcome Jamie Macintosh to the show.

[00:00:38] Jamie Macintosh joined the Global Center for Women in Justice as the program coordinator for the Samueli Foundation Grant. Safe Community, Safe Kids Program. She is an alumnus of Vanguard University and has a single subject teaching credential in social science and a college counseling certificate from UCLA.

[00:01:06] Sandie Morgan: She has extensive experience working as a middle and high school teacher, a school counselor and administrator In private and public education passionate about outreach. Jamie has traveled with students on trips to Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast Jamie.

[00:01:34] Jamie Macintosh: Thank you for having me here today Dr. Morgan,

[00:01:37] Sandie Morgan: I am so excited that you joined the Global Center for Women I Justice when we received the Safe Community, safe Kids Sam Welly Foundation grant, and I have to tell our listeners that when we interviewed you, ’cause listeners get to be kind of on the inside track, when we interviewed you, our committee was particularly impressed that you had served as a vice principal.

[00:02:13] What does a vice principal do that’s different than other teachers and administrators?

[00:02:20] Jamie Macintosh: As a vice principal, you really support the students. I think it’s a little bit more hands on with them and you’re really starting to learn more about them, especially students who are maybe having trouble in school.

[00:02:34] And so there’s a lot of times that they’re in your office and you’re talking about what’s happening in the classroom, but you’re really getting down to the root of what’s going on in their lives.

[00:02:43] Sandie Morgan: Somebody on the interview team said to me, oh wow, that’s great. She’s a problem solver, and so we knew you were the right one for the job. Tell us a little bit about what the Safe Community Safe Kids Program is doing.

[00:03:05] Jamie Macintosh: So in June, 2024, the Global Center for Women in Justice at Vanguard University, received a generous grant from the Samueli Foundation, and this was to launch the Safe Community Safe Kids Program. So this initiative just aims to combat the severe threat of human trafficking to minors in Orange County by providing expert led prevention, education, and trauma informed training to both students and educators.

[00:03:33] And all of this is done at no cost to the schools or to the teachers. So the Safe Community, Safe Kids builds upon the success of the Global Center for Women in  Justice and live to free. Who have educated over 11,000 students over the past decade, but with this grant, we’re able to launch and educate even more students.

[00:03:54]Sandie Morgan: So the Safe Community Safe Kids Program is going to also meet the California state requirements for seventh and ninth grade, is what I understand.

[00:04:11] Sandie Morgan: So when you’re talking about doing this for the schools for free, why is that so important?

[00:04:19] Jamie Macintosh: In 2016, California enacted the California Health Youth Act, which requires California public school districts to provide specific requirements for instruction on human trafficking to students in grades seven through 12, at least once in middle school and once in high school. So our program aligns with that.

[00:04:39] As well as assembly bill 1227, which still focuses on addressing human trafficking in California schools. So our program trains Vanguard University College students, which we call peer educators, to visit the classrooms to provide this crucial education on human trafficking, as well as online safety and healthy relationships.

[00:05:02] Sandie Morgan: And they adapted that a little later on, and I believe now every student is required in seventh grade and in ninth grade to have some kind of prevention training. Around human trafficking that includes both sex and labor trafficking. And the idea that it requires this training, but it doesn’t have specifics as far as whose training you have to use, has created, a need in our schools for support.

[00:05:42] So how does our program, and I’m just gonna be like promoting this because we wanna share this, out. We want other organizations to learn from what we’ve learned because we do believe prevention is super important. So how do we meet those guidelines?

[00:06:05] Jamie Macintosh: I think as a teacher, a lot of times you’re asked to teach something and you don’t get the full training, and a lot of times it’s maybe a sentence or two in your curriculum, but we know it’s so much deeper, and so we are able to go into the schools with our extensive knowledge and training and to take this from the teacher and to really teach the students this important information.

[00:06:29] Sandie Morgan: So you’re speaking not just from the perspective as the program coordinator, but your own experience as a teacher in the classroom?

[00:06:40] Jamie Macintosh: Yes, and I know one of the things that we’ve faced in implementing our program are teachers who are reserved about having guest speakers come into their classroom, especially about something as important as this.

[00:06:54] I had a teacher that said, you know, I’m a little hesitant. Because I really have had people come in and they haven’t done a great job, and my time is so valuable. So what are you doing that’s different?

[00:07:07] Sandie Morgan: Ooh, I like that question

[00:07:08] Jamie Macintosh: And we, we were able to say, we use a research based curriculum. Our students have been trained for 40 hours.

[00:07:17] They go through continuous education and they are really subject matter experts on this.

[00:07:23] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:07:24] 40 hours of training. Okay, so the idea of, well, let me go back. there’s so much to unpack in what you just said. That’s so exciting. So let’s go back. You started in June and it’s only March. So we’re three quarters of the way through year one.

[00:07:47] Let’s get kind of a glimpse of the progress that you’ve made.

[00:07:52] Jamie Macintosh: So our students, they started school at the end of August, and that’s when we started our interviews and then we went right into training. We hired 10 peer educators, and like I said, they completed those 40 hours of training in addition to going to their classes, doing their homework, doing their assignments.

[00:08:13] Then we launched into the schools. We conducted our first school visit in October, and since then we’ve partnered with 16 educators across 13 school sites. We’ve taught 52 lessons and have trained 794 students in that time.

[00:08:30] Sandie Morgan: Can I just round that off to 800?

[00:08:32] Jamie Macintosh: Yes.

[00:08:32] Sandie Morgan: Oh my gosh, that’s so amazing. Here’s the thing, when I first came to Orange County, I got invited into the classroom and I realized right away, cause I was already a grandma, that students were rolling their eyes and

[00:08:54] I realized they were just like my own kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re supposed to tell me to be careful. You’re supposed to remind me to look both ways when I cross the street, but why is it so important that we use peer educators?

[00:09:14] Jamie Macintosh: Our peer educators are saying the same things that we’re seeing, but the students aren’t hearing it when it comes from us.

[00:09:21] When they hear it from someone who’s close in age to them. Our peer educators are current undergraduate students. It just is something that hits a little bit more closer to home,

[00:09:32] Sandie Morgan: They look more like this kids. They use the same vernacular when they’re talking about video games. They’ve actually played those video games.

[00:09:44] So there’s just more resonance with, uh, a peer educator and a near peer recipient of that training. I love that you’ve already reached almost 800 students. What kind of feedback have you received?

[00:10:03] Jamie Macintosh: It has been so positive from the teachers, from the administrators down to the students. Um, something that you’ll notice when you see my desk is it’s just filled with sticky notes.

[00:10:15] Oh my gosh.

[00:10:16] Sandie Morgan: You are, you look like you dig through trash cans looking for sticky notes. They are everywhere and every color I just, we we, we’ll take a picture, we’ll put it on the website. This is the sticky note

[00:10:31] Jamie Macintosh: Yes.

[00:10:31] And that was something that after a couple of visits, we realized that we wanted more feedback from the students and we wanted them to have a safe.

[00:10:39] Space to ask the questions that maybe they couldn’t ask in front of the class. So at the end of our first lesson, we ask the students on a sticky note that we pass out to them to either write something they found interesting, something they learned that day, or maybe a question that they have, and we go through each and every one of them.

[00:10:59] We go back in lesson two and answer each of those questions. So it allows students to really share what’s on their heart, and sometimes that’s scary to do it in front of a class

[00:11:10] Sandie Morgan: and they don’t have to put their name on

[00:11:12] Jamie Macintosh: It’s completely anonymous.

[00:11:14] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So what are you gonna do with all those stickynotes

[00:11:17] Jamie Macintosh: Yeah, I think about that all the time.

[00:11:20] I know I need to do something. I save each and every one of them, and a lot of them say how much of a great impact our program had on them, what they’ve learned, signs that they didn’t realize were there before. Some red flags they’ve seen in past relationships and what they wanna do to protect others and themselves.

[00:11:40] Sandie Morgan: what kind of lessons have you learned along the way?

[00:11:45] Jamie Macintosh: I think after each presentation, it’s always a time of reflection. What are ways that we can reach students better? And so we’ve changed in different things that we’ve said. We’ve changed in ways that we can deliver our content. we’ve learned to kind of refine our skills each and every time.

[00:12:06] Sandie Morgan: Hmm. So one of the challenges that you and I have talked about is how to make sure what we bring is supplementing and helpful to the teacher. How does that translate here?

[00:12:26] Jamie Macintosh: One of the things that we’re really focused on is that we can replicate this model so that it is not based on just specific peer educators, but it’s something that is gonna continue after they graduate.

[00:12:40] So for our students, they’re able to go into schools between one and four years, and then they go off into their careers. And so what is a way that we can continue to go into schools and teach students as we get new peer educators every year to every few years. And so I think one of the things that we’ve struggled with is finding ways to be consistent as well as having each student add their voice to the presentation.

[00:13:10] Sandie Morgan: Okay. So how has the peer education model impacted student learning and engagement? And let’s talk about that from the perspective of a seventh grader or ninth grader that we’re targeting.

[00:13:27] Jamie Macintosh: So our peer educators are really the core of our program. I was just in a conference a few weeks ago where they were talking about peer recruitment, and that is using peers to recruit particularly vulnerable people into trafficking situations. And so that can be commonly referred to as peer to peer recruitment or recruitment by peers.

[00:13:51] Sandie Morgan: So wait a minute. So we’re trying to do prevention with peer-to-peer, but the traffickers are using peers as well?

[00:13:59] Jamie Macintosh: Yes. And so that’s what we’re seeing, that they’re using these various tactics and strategies like exploitation of trust, social influences, deceptive promises, manipulation of vulnerability, or even just control.

[00:14:13] Sandie Morgan: Okay, let’s break that down. So we wanna build trust and we talk about helping young people identify trusted adults, now that same element is being used against these kiddos. Explain that.

[00:14:34] Jamie Macintosh: So, a child might feel more open to listening to someone who is near or close to their age, and there is a little bit more trust in that openness, not thinking that that person is trying to do something bad to them.

[00:14:49] And so that we see that the human traffickers are using these other children who are near an age to try to bring these children into recruitment. And so we go in using near age students to then teach as well because we see that they’re more open to hearing from someone who’s close or somewhat close to their age.

[00:15:10] Sandie Morgan: Okay. So we’re building trust. What about social influence?

[00:15:15] Jamie Macintosh: So we see that traffickers can also often use social networks, including friends, acquaintances, or even online to make trafficking situations appear normal or even desirable. One of the things that our peer educators talk about is, is there someone online who’s messaging you, maybe a friend that you’ve never met?

[00:15:38] How many hands we see raised when we ask that question in the classrooms, that there’s this trust of thinking that the person on the other side of the computer is someone who’s close in their age, and it may not be.

[00:15:50] Sandie Morgan: So there is a sense that. Our ninth graders and seventh graders may be too trusting of the people on the screen.

[00:16:00] Jamie Macintosh: Yes. And not only the people on the screen, but other peers at their school where they may think, oh, that person’s just asking me for a picture because they like me. Not realizing that person might be sharing that picture with others.

[00:16:15] Sandie Morgan: That’s scary. So you also said that they use strategies that include deceptive promises. That sounds just like the definition of human trafficking where they use fraud.

[00:16:29] Jamie Macintosh: Yes. And that’s one of the things that we show the students in our presentation. We bring up Maslow’s hierarchy and our students go through. These are things that each of us need. We need food and we need shelter to feel safe.

[00:16:44] And if you’re lacking one of those things, oftentimes a trafficker will try to hit that vulnerable spot to make you feel like that you’re feeling loved or feel secure.

[00:16:57] Sandie Morgan: Two more elements you mentioned. Manipulation of vulnerability, and that falls as long as we’re using the human trafficking definition, that falls into the category of coercion.

[00:17:12] Jamie Macintosh: Yes. So we see that peer recruiters can use tactics like emotional manipulation, establishing trust and friendship before gradually introducing the idea of trafficking. My colleague Ruthie Hanchett, made this really great short film that was in partnership with teens in the Santa Ana Unified School district that shows this boyfriend asking his girlfriend to do sexual acts in exchange for money for their relationship.

[00:17:42] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And traffickers control, what is that for a seventh grader?

[00:17:49] Jamie Macintosh: So a seventh grader may feel like they’re compelled to continue recruiting for that person to avoid retaliation or harm to themselves or loved ones.

[00:18:01] we see that traffickers can often threaten or expose that person to harm, or even they would say, “I’m gonna share these things that you did with others. I’m gonna share these photos with your peers, and everyone’s gonna know what you did.”

[00:18:15] Unless,

[00:18:17] Sandie Morgan: unless, and then we move into more exploitative language and even extortion. And How do you and the peer educators try to equip these kids so that they know how to find help?

[00:18:38] Jamie Macintosh: I think we want to. Our first school is always preventative education that students can recognize the signs of human trafficking and these warning signs. But we also wanna aim to break these cycles by teaching young people how to recognize and avoid peer recruitment tactics in the future.

[00:18:58] Sandie Morgan: Yes. Okay. We can put a link to the short film.

[00:19:04] I, it’s a very revealing film when you understand that it was made, the story was created by young people for other young people, and this is an area as an educator in a university.

[00:19:23] And a longtime member of our anti-human trafficking community here in Orange County, nationally, internationally, we want to empower the kids, we wanna protect them. Sometimes we practically wanna build fences around them, but we also have to understand how important it is for us to build their resilience, their ability to identify risk and respond. And that’s kind of strengths based approach to prevention is critical and a key element in the Safe Community, Safe Kids Project.

[00:20:14] We’re almost through year one. What kind of improvement or adaptations are you looking towards for year two?

[00:20:27] Jamie Macintosh: In year two, we’re gonna double our reach. And so that means that we’re gonna double our team of peer educators as well as needing to double our partnerships. And so I think our district partnerships are our greatest asset to sustainability of our program.

[00:20:44] And so as we move forward, we want schools to welcome us into each and every classroom, and I think that would help us be consistent in delivering this education and guarantees that all students receive this important information.

[00:21:02] Sandie Morgan: So when you are in a classroom, give me an example of what the students are teaching and how they communicate.

[00:21:15] What kind of scenarios do they offer?

[00:21:18] Jamie Macintosh: Well, our program is done over two one hour presentations, and it goes over topics such as. What is human trafficking? How it happens, who is involved and affected? What are different red flags to look for? We teach students to recognize their inner voice and how to listen to it.

[00:21:41] They’re able to know what their rights, what their personal boundaries are. We say “no” is a complete sentence. the difference between healthy and unhealthy relationships. Finding who a trusted adult could be and how to take a stand. I think it’s really important that students learn this information for themselves, but they’re also learning this information to stand up for others around them.

[00:22:06] Sandie Morgan: Let’s talk about that a little more because I feel really strongly that safe communities starts in their peer community, and I’ve been very distressed. We just finished in Ensure Justice and learning from some of the teachers, from some of the social workers, child welfare that students in the same class would pass on an inappropriate picture instead of making sure they’re the ones who stop it and that.

[00:22:47] That ability to stand up for your peers. How, how do you take that to the classroom and make it an actionable, learning outcome from the peer educators with the kids?

[00:23:05] Jamie Macintosh: One of the things we talk about with the students in the presentations is how much power that they have to stop things when things are wrong.

[00:23:16] And so one of the things we ask students to do is to recognize who they can be and that they have the power now to say “no” to things that are wrong. Our peer educators, they go in and they give examples, and that’s one of the great things about the presentation, is they can show them ways that they can get out of a bad situation and give them examples.

[00:23:42] In our second lesson, we teach students the ABCs, where they’re learning to assess a bad situation. They’re learning how to recognize what’s going on, and then we give them ways to get out of that situation and find a safe environment.

[00:24:00] Sandie Morgan: So give me an example, assume that I am online and I’m trying to connect to a young person and I’m trying to reach out to everybody in that class, but my profile is fake.

[00:24:18] I’m not really 14 years old. So what do you tell a student when everybody else is excited that there’s this new, girl new guy in class and one student is suspicious, how does one student change everything for the others?

[00:24:41] Jamie Macintosh: When a student learns to speak up, I think that has more power than they recognize.

[00:24:48] And so when they are able to say, there’s something wrong here. I don’t think this is what’s going on, other peers start to listen to that and it just takes one student to do that.

[00:24:59] Sandie Morgan: I love the power of one student. That’s so important. So, let’s go back to looking at this program from the long term impact and sustainability.

[00:25:15] I am thrilled that we’re almost at the end of year one and we have such good results, and I attribute a lot of that to your leadership, your organization, and your commitment to the peer educators. They always turn to you for guidance and support when they’re out in the community, but after year three.

[00:25:43] How are we planning right now to be able to continue to deliver, to continue the sustainability?

[00:25:51] Jamie Macintosh: Thank you for your kind words. I think it’s taken a really great team who have built into the peer educators, and looking at sustainability.

[00:26:00] We want this program to continue past our grant funding, and I think district partnerships would be our greatest asset if we were to establish sustainable partnerships with school districts through MOUs,

[00:26:14] That would enable us to educate every student in the district through classroom visits. So ideally what that would look like would be districts would contribute maybe a nominal fee to access the curriculum, and then the peer educators could then deliver the content.

[00:26:29] Sandie Morgan: I think the, the magic sauce, like people talk about is the chemistry that happens when I’ve observed peer educators with a classroom full of 14, 15, 16 year olds and the energy as they’re raising their hands or just shouting out. No, don’t do that. I, I think we underestimate the value of young people keeping each other safe and how we integrate that into our day-to-day education.

[00:27:10] So looking for ways to keep this going. The sustainability it’s constantly as the executive director for the Global Center for Women and Justice, it’s constantly in my mind and I am, I’m also very aware of school districts that don’t have resources to fund some of those long term objectives. Have you thought about

[00:27:42] How the communities can begin to be part of the sustainability. What, what ways could we engage parents, other schools? Any ideas for that?

[00:27:57] Jamie Macintosh: I think as the name of our program implies, it takes a safe community to have safe kids. And so it’s all of us coming together and working together. I’ve had parents, I’ve had churches say, could we pull our money together to have this program at our youth group?

[00:28:14] And so it’s just finding other ways to get this education out.

[00:28:19] Sandie Morgan: Aand that’s where I feel really encouraged.

[00:28:22] At first, people said, well, why can’t you bring this to our school? I was like, because our grant is Orange County.

[00:28:31] And so they said, so what if we, and they began to build a strategy for their own program. So let’s take a moment and think about, what could someone do to build a program like this in their county, assuming that they don’t have Vanguard University next door? Do you have ideas?

[00:29:00] Jamie Macintosh: I think our goal is that this program would be widely used throughout the nation, and it’s not just here in Orange County.

[00:29:09] We would love for other schools or other groups of people to adopt this peer education model and send peers to teach about human trafficking into schools or youth groups or other programs. And so I think it’s beginnin to, to contact the global center. I think it could be seeing what we’re doing and trying to replicate it.

[00:29:33] Sandie Morgan: I totally agree. It is replicatable and there are ways for you to learn more about peer education, and so I encourage you to follow us, follow what Jamie Macintosh is doing in leading this program here.

[00:29:53] If you have the opportunity to join us at any of our seminars, our Ensure Justice, listen to future broadcasts on this podcast.

[00:30:07] We want this to multiply, and in many ways it reminds me of the, the little, what’s the weed that has all the little seeds? What, what do we call that?

[00:30:20] Jamie Macintosh: Oh, the dandelion.

[00:30:22] Sandie Morgan: In many ways it reminds me of a dandelion, and as you listen to this podcast, I would want those seeds to find their way to your community because building safe communities with our kids is the future of how we keep our kids safe.

[00:30:39]  Building resilience in a digital world where kids can recognize the risk, the exploiters, and determine to be the one to step up and protect their friends, their co-students. I am so excited about this episode, Jamie, and I wanna thank you for doing this interview.

[00:31:10] Jamie Macintosh: Thank you, Dr. Morgan for having me on today and for just your support in this program and I’m excited to see where it continues to go and how it continues to grow and how others can have this program and grow it in their community too.

[00:31:24] Sandie Morgan: All right, we’ll look forward to that.

[00:31:27]  Listeners, I encourage you to take the next step by visiting our website at endinghumantrafficking.org. If you haven’t visited the site before, be sure to subscribe so you can stay up to date with everything we share.

[00:31:52] You can access show notes from today’s episode and peruse the past episodes. We’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from this conversation. Invite them to subscribe and join our community. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

[00:32:19] Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

David Tyree joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how financial crime investigations can disrupt human trafficking by following the money trail and identifying the financial networks that support trafficking operations.

David Tyree has over 25 years of experience as a DEA Agent and financial crime investigator. He has led major investigations into money laundering and drug trafficking and is a recognized expert in financial crime investigations. He trains law enforcement officers on detecting money laundering and asset forfeiture. Recently, he participated in the Follow the Money Roundtable with Valid8 at Vanguard University.

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. Infighting Human Trafficking here at the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University. This is episode number 341 with David Tyree following the money, How Financial Crime Investigations Disrupt Human Trafficking. David Tyree has over 25 years of experience as a D.E.A. Agent and financial crime investigator.

[00:00:43] He has led major investigations into money laundering and drug trafficking and is a recognized expert in financial crime investigation, crime and trains law enforcement officers on detecting money laundering and asset forfeiture. Recently, he participated in the Follow the Money Roundtable with Valid8 right here at Vanguard University.

[00:01:11] David, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

[00:01:15] David Tyree: Thank you. I’m so honored to be a part of this. I’m so impressed that you have 341 episodes. And I bet we can agree, wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t have to do podcasts about this? Could we, if we could actually end this epidemic, it would just be fascinating and we could go do something different.

[00:01:33] Sandie: I love that you are bringing a little different perspective to our community. We have listeners in 171 countries. And the, I, a lot of the conversation has been about identifying victims, providing victim support, training law enforcement on victim centered care, trauma informed, all of these aspects that are so necessary. But there are people with skill sets that we haven’t really included in our conversation. And I think today, that’s going to be part of what you help us understand about how financial investigations connect to human trafficking. So let’s just start off, because I know people want to get to know you, how did you choose to pursue financial aspects of human trafficking investigation?

[00:02:34] David Tyree: Well, that’s that’s a great question. And I would just start with some background. So I was with the Drug Enforcement Administration as a special agent for, yeah, 25 years. I started in New Mexico. So in Albuquerque, where this is back in the nineties, late nineties, and there was human trafficking back then.

[00:02:52] We probably didn’t know what it was but one of my functions as an agent was to do hotel, motel, and train interdiction.

[00:03:03] Sandie: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Interdiction. That’s like a word. I don’t really think I could define.

[00:03:08] David Tyree: Oh, sure. interdiction means to stop, to intercede,

[00:03:13] Sandie: Oh, you just have to, use big words? Is that.

[00:03:16] David Tyree: I just, that’s what they called us. We were an interdiction unit. I didn’t really know what it meant. I just, uh, did what they told me.

[00:03:22] Sandie: Okay, so continue that story.

[00:03:25] David Tyree: Interdiction. is a law enforcement term that refers to sort of stopping, like interceding, and there’s different forms of interdiction.

[00:03:34] You might read in the paper about a large traffic stop, drug seizure in the middle of some interstate somewhere. That’s usually referred to in law enforcement circles as an interdiction. They stopped the ability of this narcotics trafficker to transit to their final destination or money going in the opposite direction.

[00:03:54] So in my initial endeavors, we were responding to tips. We were looking for last minute one way cash travel, and it often involved hotels and it often involved prostitution, which arguably, you know, where was it? Human trafficking? Where was a prostitution? We were looking at the same indicators.

[00:04:18] And so early on in my career, I started having contact with victims that were being trafficked or prostituted against their will. And I’m 23, 24 years old, and it opened up my eyes quickly to something that struck me that someone was making a profit off of the exploitation of these people, which falls in line with narcotics trafficking as well, right?

[00:04:43] There’s people that are making a profit off essentially addiction, which is sad to me, and something I experienced personally growing up in my family, seeing some folks in my family that were struggling with addiction and, have since made it into recovery, which is great. And they would say to me, David, you got to follow the money.

[00:05:03] Someone’s making a profit off of my misery. So I then, after about five years, transferred to Portland, Oregon, and I was put with the drugs and vice team, uh, with the Portland Police Bureau, an incredible group of investigators. Again, we were doing the same thing, targeting, drug trafficking organizations.

[00:05:21] And it always brought us with the vice team into these hotel motel. Knock and talk investigations where we kept seeing the same thing, there’d be two or three women, in one room they were going to another room. We were not exactly sure what we were looking at and it was very challenging to get them to identify as victims.

[00:05:44] Dr. Morgan, I’m going to tell you that, and that’s been the hardest part,

[00:05:48] Sandie: and that, that’s one of the things people often have this idea that victims are waiting to be rescued, waving their arms, saying, here I am, come and get me. And then when you say they don’t identify as victims, how do we help them? And further down the line, when we get to the point where we want to prosecute the predators most of our criminal justice system is based on witness testimony and you bring a new component because we need to be able to prosecute these cases without re traumatizing victims.

[00:06:32] David Tyree: Well, and so easy for me to talk about solution, and we’ll get to the money movement, but I will tell you this, and we’ll go into the deep end of the pool. And this is not an original thought, by the way, but I know, from training experience and lived experiences, there are three circles of, essentially, they intersect.

[00:06:53] These three circles would be motivations. So there’s power, there’s achievement and there’s association. And these three circles sometimes intersect, oftentimes they don’t, but to the human trafficked victim, when you try and put them in one of those circles, they’re in association, they’re, they’re associating with other victims.

[00:07:17] They’re associating with the, pimps and those that are running these organizations. Those folks running these organizations are all about power. And so when the 171 countries listen, think about speaking to someone who’s potentially a victim. You have to critically understand how important that motivation of association is, and to go and tell somebody you’re on fire, what’s happening is not right, and they’re looking at their associates, and this has now become their mechanism to pay for their lifestyles.

[00:07:54] You’re coming to take that away, and if you, you’re just another power circle. My goal, and what I watch some incredible detectives and agents do. Was they examined that motivation in advance of that initial contact and they thought, well, what can I do here? And it was, I’m going to associate how I’m going to associate with somebody who’s being trafficked is recognize how hard it is sometimes financially to make ends meet.

[00:08:22] Do you see? And if this is not manipulative, you’re using a very human, empathetic gift that I think we all can tap into and all of a sudden as you make that association, you do one thing and it’s established trust and when you establish trust, which is, I think, the greatest gift the universe gives us, you have to hold it really gently and to our conversation when we met it was, how can I in this association create a safe space without the notion of trying to manipulate somebody to become a witness, that’s, that’s definitely on the table.

[00:08:57] We want to get the perpetrators prosecuted. Not necessarily at the expense of re traumatizing the victim. So, I would joke, not joke, but I guess that’s the wrong word. I would often see us spinning plates. And trying to examine motivation and then we as law enforcement had to shift our motivation because we went from we’re going to get the guy in the parking lot in the rental car that’s exploiting these women and then we’re having conversations with these women who were almost in an argument about their role and it really took away from our efficacy because then we just became another power if that makes sense.

[00:09:39] And that was we learned quickly how that took away from our efficacy. And so I know that again when I say deep into the pool, I’m always speaking with law enforcement about what’s the motivation here. Because for police, by the way, it can be power. It can also be achievement. And we also bring association into that environment, just as law enforcement associating with law enforcement.

[00:10:04] So again, deep end of the pool. Cops are pretty guarded. They’re not really trusting, right? We’ve been lied to so much. We’re not fun at parties. How you as law enforcement can sort of take off that jacket and say, you know, I actually Started to do this because I wanted to help people, you sort of have to go back to your roots and again convincing a victim that they’re a victim probably not the best move at your initial contact you. What like you’re doing.

[00:10:35] You’re providing a safe space. You’re allowing someone to decompress from trauma and I can tell you from being around police that have been in shootings and myself as well, sometimes it takes days to decompress from those critical incidents. So imagine taking someone out of an environment where they’ve been trafficked, they don’t have the mechanisms to leave, they don’t believe they’re being trafficked, and you’re now pressing them trying to get critical evidence against your perpetrators.

[00:11:05] Police solve problems in 15 minutes or less. That’s just how it works. And so you put them in this and that’s not to say that they can’t get there, but I just think it takes a lot of heart and it takes you have to see people. I think differently. And that’s where it goes back to, to me following the money because I can tell you when I started doing this and I started watching the Cheyenne police department was in my office.

[00:11:33] They were all sworn through FBI and they were the human trafficking task force. Incredible. They taught me so much. They did so much great work. And when they showed me how to follow the money through green dot cards that were all being uploaded by bad guys that were frequenting these traffic victims and then moving to a prison facility in California.

[00:11:57] It was fascinating and it was, I thought, this is a one time isolated event, like a polaroid, a snapshot, seven women, one guy in the parking lot. These detectives showed me these people were going all over the country doing this, being exploited, getting onto different websites to advertise their services.

[00:12:18] It shocked me to see how much money was moving. So I started learning quite a bit about the money movement, which was oftentimes double charges at the door at the hotel room door. There was an entry fee. Normally it seemed like 70 to  80 dollars and then a secondary fee of 15 to 20 dollars. Apparently this is a tip for services rendered that money was moving from our, whoever frequent in these women, it would move from their account.

[00:12:47] To the woman’s phone that had some sort of money cash app. Zelle, Venmo, you name it. They had a mechanism to collect that money. And then it moved again to the bad guy sitting in the parking lot.

[00:13:02] Sandie: So, Financial investigation, how do you access and investigate those kinds of transactions?

[00:13:12] David Tyree: Those money service providers will help. They all have law enforcement portals. There is a subpoena process. Those I’m not promoting any of them. I don’t use any of them, but their law enforcement support services were incredible. So there is a judicial process, right? We had to get subpoenas.

[00:13:32] We had to look at first name only, addresses that were attributed to the accounts. And then you start making a picture You start to see money move, you get voluminous documents back, which is why I went to work for Valid8 because they’re the only company I know that makes sense of that money movement.

[00:13:52] Shameless plug for Valid8.

[00:13:54] Sandie: let’s let’s describe, we’ll take a little pause here from the big picture the idea that you get voluminous data, so much data, it’s overwhelming. So this software is going to save you from manually going through all of these transactions. Is that kind of the idea?

[00:14:19] David Tyree: yes, and that’s not why I’m such a fan. Yes, it makes it, money is fungible, right? It moves very quickly and it doesn’t lie. Bank records don’t lie. Witnesses lie. Informants lie. Arguably any witness can lie. The bank records tell a story of money movement and that money movement, in my opinion, tells a story to the jury.

[00:14:43] It tells a story to the prosecutor because juries, they may not understand human trafficking, financial literacy, how, how this operation, you know, is created and, and the defense can tear that apart. What they can’t tear apart is these 17 women have been sending that guy money all over the country.

[00:15:06] And he has rental cars in every hotel city where they frequented. And once the money hits the guy in the rental car, who’s managing this, the money moves to some other bad actor in another state. That to me is the most concrete evidence that a jury has to look at and say, well, that is beyond a reasonable doubt.

[00:15:26] This is not normal. This is not how my money works. So that’s when we say, follow the money. I want to tell a story. I want to tell a story that cannot be refuted because these are bank records. So the voluminosity around all of that, it does \ tend to overwhelm law enforcement because we were meaning making animals.

[00:15:49] We need to make a quick story that we can articulate and that’s why I, when we talk about following the money, I’m like an action, the money, that money is going to somebody who is higher up in the organization. And they may have assets that they’ve acquired through the exploitation of these victims that we need to go after.

[00:16:09] So we can get these victims financial restitution. And as we spoke about, not just restitution, but financial literacy, now that you’ve been, we, you, you’ve been compensated as a victim, and now you have this money. How can we help you as a society? So you are not drawn back into this solution when times are tough.

[00:16:33] Sandie: So let’s, break that, that last section up into two parts. First, talk a little bit more about, asset forfeiture and restitution. And then let’s move into the financial literacy conversation.

[00:16:49] David Tyree: Perfect. Yeah. So the asset forfeiture piece is at the federal level and at many states is, teeth. And what that, what those teeth do is take a bite out of the criminal organization’s ability to reconstitute. So you, you take their money. This is my lived experience at DEA, I participated in the seizure

[00:17:11] A lot of money and at times I’ve seen these organizations crumble because they’re not able to reconstitute. Taking their drugs is great. Trust me, take them off the streets, a big deal. It’s arguably a 99 percent profit margin so they can get more drugs. They can reconstitute narcotics. You take their money and now they have a really difficult time paying off debts, paying off obligations, paying traffickers, paying the organization.

[00:17:40] So, in my professional opinion, it is a tool to combat crime. And I’m very careful to not articulate some idea that this is the only tool because I think again, going back to those three motivations, if I say money laundering, following the money is the only way to do this. I lose association and I move over to power and achievement.

[00:18:03] So I’m always trying to stay where I’m most comfortable, which is association. I’m deep in my head, Dr. Morgan.

[00:18:09] Sandie: No, I love it. I love it. We could talk for hours and this is why, when I was titling this episode, I used the terminology of financial crime investigations that disrupt

[00:18:24] human trafficking and so that part means that we don’t have the arrogance to think our approach is the be all and end all of in this battle, but we do have to be more inclusive as a movement to consider the perspective as well as the tools and the ability to investigate from a different perspective. So now we’re talking about the forfeiture and then victim compensation. I think that restitution piece has an element of, healing that has been overlooked. We look at it in hard, cold, social justice, criminal justice perspectives. But when I talk to victims, when they receive restitution no matter how much it is, that’s what they report to me as the most significant aspect of their case. When I talk to them about how many years the perpetrator got and is, they’re not really that interested in talking about that. So when, in your experience with restitution, I was really surprised to hear from a numbers being counter, I have stereotypes about, how you guys think and all, that your heart came to the table because the first thing you wanted to do is equip those victims with financial literacy. Can you explain how you came to that conclusion?

[00:20:11] David Tyree: Absolutely. So, and I, we can agree, it’s a really complicated multifaceted problem, right? I’ll go back when we were combating methamphetamine in the mid 2000s. We did this the faces of meth campaign and billboards around the country were showing sort of that transition with a methamphetamine user to a full blown addict and it sent a message.

[00:20:36] We put victims up around the country and it actually, I think from the numbers, impacted people in their decision process about, hey, am I going to really go down the methamphetamine avenue? When we think about what struck my heart on human trafficking were interviews in the field. And you and I were, were probably very blessed.

[00:21:01] Like I don’t often think about 60 dollars being the way I can feed my kid for the week and get them, pay for their field trip. Right. And I think in the drug world, doing undercover, I saw greed, I saw a lot of greed from drug traffickers. I also saw, in my experiences doing some re entry work in the courts, people coming out of prison.

[00:21:27] And I’ll never forget, it was a gangster’s disciple who had to come up with, child support and some other obligations. And he did not know I was with DEA. I was with a judge and some other individuals doing some re entry work. And he said, I could easily sell two pounds of marijuana and pay off all my debts and be stress free the rest of the week.

[00:21:46] He goes, but I’m not. I’m going to go to Home Depot. I’m going to work my shifts and I’m going to make my financial obligations because he had been exposed to some financial literacy training. All of a sudden he was thinking about 401ks and savings accounts. When we think about those that are maybe not bankable or who just don’t have the financial where withal to make ends meet.

[00:22:10] That creates a lot of desperation, but by the grace of God, I haven’t had to be there yet. I’m knocking on wood, but imagine how that must feel. So when we talk about financial literacy, that’s a big word in to say, hey, listen, you’re going to get this restitution and whatever that amount is, we want to help you set yourself up for failure because clearly there’s been some impulsive decisions around what to do when times get tough.

[00:22:39] So we are going to walk with you through getting your driver’s license back. That’s a fee. You know, 30 bucks to you and me is ah, I lost my license to somebody only has 180 dollars. They’re like, I’m not going to have a license that is doesn’t write the Maslow’s triangle of needs. So doing some of those interviews and watching truly many of these women had children that they were trying to look after, or they had a court fee where they were trying to deal with custody.

[00:23:11] And these women I felt would do anything, anything to take care of outside needs. I wasn’t seeing as law enforcement. So it was getting to know some of these women walking with them and working with social services to create, not just like a, a net, but a springboard and it sounds really silly, Sandie, but if no one’s going to drive you to the bank and you don’t have a driver’s license, you’re not getting a bank account.

[00:23:43] So all the restitution in the world  doesn’t matter if you get a check and you’re like, I don’t bank anywhere. My function and really watching the Cheyenne police department detectives, they teamed up with social services and I was in awe of the commitment they made because their mindset was no more victims.

[00:24:05] And I thought, no more victims? And they said, not in our city. And it wasn’t about arresting their way out of the problem. These are really thoughtful, smart, inspiring detectives, who at times, I know, dipped into their own wallets to create an environment where these people, these victims, were made safe.

[00:24:26] And, and I know I’m not talking about throwing money at the problem. I’m talking about throwing your heart and soul at a problem and, and being so empathetic and nonjudgmental. That was the number one for me. I have two daughters. I, I, I have to go into this situation with zero judgment, zero eye rolls, zero.

[00:24:48] My only motivation again was association because through that association, I built trust and I listened. And I validated as much as I talk. I learned through a counselor to listen and all I had to say was, that sounds really hard. That sounds really hard. So as they’re telling me, Hey, listen, I’m not a victim here.

[00:25:09] You know, men have been arguing. I can’t sell my body. It’s my body. I’m going to do what I want. And you don’t have any idea what it’s like when rents due and there’s no food on the table. I’m going to do what I need to do. My David response was like, whoa, whoa, whoa instead, I would just go, that sounds really hard.

[00:25:27] Your financial circumstances sound really, really challenging. I’m so sorry for that. They were not necessarily looking for sympathy. In fact, I was told to drop, I’m sorry that it was implied. Because again, I’m just building trust through validation. And what is my motivation? It’s not power. The last thing is power.

[00:25:45] So everything was question driven. Do you have a place to stay tonight? Do you have safe accommodations? Do you need any medicine? Do your children need any medicine? It was radical curiosity and really from a sincere place, honestly, I hope it doesn’t sound manipulative, but what I was trying to do was quickly

[00:26:06] build trust and not be a power source, but be somebody who is trying to associate. And they actually are really good in general. They at problem solving for the most part, they’re like, no, I don’t have a place to say I need a place to stay. If I didn’t have a place, I just destroyed trust right then and there.

[00:26:26] Right. So we, though we were very tactical in our approaches and while we’re doing all this. We have a warrant for the phones. We’re dumping the phone. We’re finding where the money’s moving. We were reaching out to financial institutions. I got to tell you, FinCEN, the financial crimes network, they have set a threshold for banks to alert to what could be suspicious activity.

[00:26:48] It’s 5, 000 dollars. I’ve never gotten into a case at a hotel, at a bus station, that there was 5, 000 dollars of movement. So we started educating financial institutions. We started giving them methodology. We asked them what to look for and without naming any banks, I got to tell you. Every bank I dealt with was so on board with being part of the solution.

[00:27:12] So on board with saying FinCEN that’s great because of what DEA and the Cheyenne Police Department have told us we’re not gonna we’re going to ignore that threshold and we’re going to look for this typology and money movement. Which is again David Tyree lives in northern Colorado If i’m traveling to Arkansas and you see that i’m getting i’m paying for a hotel at the Marriott and i’m also paying for a hotel at the motel six. Well, that should, that’s strange.

[00:27:39] And then if you see on my debit card, double payment within an hour, first name only at Venmo.com or at Cash app.com. This is important. And the financial institution needs to alert that. And they need to, once they’ve done their due diligence, they need to notify law enforcement in that area. Hey, you’ve got somebody in that, in your city perpetrating crime.

[00:28:00] It may be human trafficking. It may be prostitution. I tell you what, you know, the difference is Sandie. If that girl, woman is underage, if she’s 17, it’s human trafficking at the federal level. If they don’t have their identification or mechanism to leave that environment, they don’t get their luggage, they don’t, you’ve got human trafficking.

[00:28:18] And guess who your good witness is? The guy that’s perpetrating the prostitution or human trafficking crime. That guy, because guess who I’m going to call? I shouldn’t even say this online. Hey, you have two choices. You can jump on the law enforcement. I’m going to help you raft. Or we might need to reach out to your company and your wife to confirm your travel.

[00:28:40] Does she know you’re paying for two rooms? Now, I moved from association to power.

[00:28:47] Sandie: Wow, it is so clear that you are passionate about the work you’re doing to disrupt human trafficking. A couple of observations from my perspective is it was new for me to begin to think that curiosity about financial issues goes the other direction. Those questions. And I have talked to victim service providers.

[00:29:16] I’ve talked to victims and the concerns that you uncover. Do you have a place to stay? Can you pay for your kids schooling? Those are all things that have been part of the conversation. So following the money from the victim’s perspective, maybe a slightly new perspective for some folks, to begin to understand why restitution is significant. And I don’t want to drop off from the conversation around financial literacy because that missing that particular aspect of this will make it much more certain that a victim may fall into the same patterns

[00:30:08] again and again. So, I have so much to think about with where we can beef up that aspect of our approach, from the victim side, I want to understand and learn more about following the money at a higher level. And I just, I’m so grateful for your insight and as a closing question, I, I want to go back to earlier and talk about your why, and you thanked me at the beginning as we got online, to start this podcast. And so if you can give us that personal perspective, your why.

[00:31:00] David Tyree: Great question. I have gotten my hands dirty in my life doing these kinds of investigations, not just in the U.S in Europe and West Africa. And I have seen up close and personal the exploitation of human beings. And as much as I like to use my sense of humor or create distance, it left a mark. It left a mark on me that’s indelible and, it touches home.

[00:31:29] I mean, like I’ve told you, I have two daughters and a son and they were concerned when human trafficking was becoming a big issue. And so, for my ability to decompress from a hotel, environment, with the Cheyenne Police Department and their human trafficking cases, I had a 45 minute commute back home and the message in my head was don’t forget, don’t forget, don’t forget because it’s so hard to see it up close and personal and these are real people with the same problems I have just at a different level and I have not been able to shake it and there’s days I wish I could and I’m not, trust me, I’m, I’m no saint and I, there’s so much more I want to be able to do.

[00:32:18]  What my why goes back to is there is somebody making a profit off of that misery and I will get with Cash App, Venmo, Apple Pay, and I will paint a picture and I’m going to take their money, I’m going to put them in prison, the people that are making money off that person, I’m going to take their money, I’m going to put them in prison, I’m going to follow the money, I’m going to make a story, and I will take out the economic incentive to exploit

[00:32:46] the least of us and it, it drives me every morning, gets me out of bed and I retired. But before our call, I was called consulting DEA on a case and it just wrecks me because at the end of this case, a lot of money movement are overdose victims from fentanyl and I know from growing up in an addicted home, the misery, like you can say, Oh, overdose.

[00:33:11] That’s so sad. Person’s deceased. They were using drugs. That’s a bad idea. There’s a family behind that victim. There’s a mom, there’s a dad, there’s uncle, and they’re hurting. And I feel like it’s not just law enforcement. It’s all of us as a society. Like we can get behind maybe nothing politically, but certainly corporately as human beings that this is not okay.

[00:33:37] We know it’s not okay. We’ve put an end to slavery. We know this is wrong. Let’s attack those that are making financial gain off the misery of others. Let’s say not today. And this is how we’re going to do it. And Dr. Morgan, I’ll send you, for your listeners, every link I have to every cash money transfer system.

[00:33:58] They’re so helpful, through these law enforcement portals. I’m always available, day or night, if someone has a question. If I don’t know the answer, I’ll point them in the right direction. I’m just so passionate about this because as you know

[00:34:10] There is hope. There is hope. And if you want to kill my hope, you’re going to have to kill me. I will not. I will not. And this sounds hyperbolic, but it’s what gets me. I’m not going to surrender the only thing that gives me any strength in this is hope. I hope. That there’s a change in there that light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train, but through folks like you and your organization that we’re actually creating light and we’re creating opportunity because I’m not AI, but you ask AI how to cure this.

[00:34:41] It will tell you. Create opportunity.

[00:34:44] Sandie: Wow. David, it has been such a pleasure and hope is part of our mission statement here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women in Justice. And our listeners, if you found this episode helpful, jump over to the ending human trafficking.org website, subscribe, leave a review, find the show notes, join us and share this with others that you think might benefit and post on social media. David, this has been such an energizing conversation. I’m sure I’m going to be waking up in the middle of the night for days and I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you for joining us.

[00:35:35] David Tyree: Well, it is an honor and I am so proud to be a part of your solution. It means the world to me. So I was looking forward to this from the moment we met and, anything I can do to be part of that solution to be part of your solution. I’ll just bask in your glory,

[00:35:50] but it’s wonderful what you are doing and it takes so much courage and to your listeners to even download a podcast about ending human trafficking.

[00:36:00] This takes courage. This is what we’re built for. We are built for storms and it, it, I’m so I’ll get off this and I’ll be all, my wife will think I’m all caffeinated. I’m like, no, I got to speak about something I’m passionate about. And, uh, so I thank you for the opportunity.

[00:36:17] Sandie: Oh, that’s great. And to our listeners, I’ll see you again in two weeks.

Rabbi Diana Gerson joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how faith-based communities can play a critical role in protecting children online and building a network of trusted community leaders.

Rabbi Diana Gerson is the Associate Executive Vice President of the New York Board of Rabbis. She represents the organization at the United Nations and leads interfaith initiatives focused on child welfare, community resilience, and violence prevention. She is a member of the Child Dignity in a Digital World initiative and serves as Senior Advisor for Partnerships and External Relationships at the Interfaith Alliance for Safer Communities. She co-founded the Global Advocacy Hub for Children and Families and is the USA Country Coordinator for the Global Network of Religions for Children. In 2024, she was appointed to the UNHCR Multi-Religious Council of Leaders.

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice right here in Orange County, California. This is episode number 340, Building a Network of Trusted Community Leaders with Rabbi Diana Gerson. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan,

[00:00:23] and this is a show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so delighted to have Rabbi Diana Gerson with me today. She is the Associate Executive Vice President of the New York Board of Rabbis. But she is so much more,

[00:00:49] she represents the organization at the United Nations and leads interfaith initiatives focused on child welfare, community resilience, and violence prevention. I want to just list, the organizations that she is involved as members or serving on in some way. Just to highlight the value of that connectedness and overlapping networks, She’s a member of the Child Dignity In a digital world. She was appointed senior advisor for partnerships and external relationships at the interfaith Alliance for safer communities. She co founded the global advocacy hub for children and families. And she’s the USA country coordinator for the global network of religions for children. She was also appointed in 2024 to the UNHCR multi religious council of leaders. Wow, that is a mouthful, I had to take several breaths. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, Diana.

[00:02:08] Diana: Thank you, Sandie, so much for having me. It is wonderful to be back.

[00:02:12] Sandie: That’s right. That’s right. You’ve been on here before and I imagine we will find time to do this again. you’re going to be at Ensure Justice this year and the aspect of how we keep our kids safe online in a brand new digital world, there is a role for faith based communities to play that we often don’t talk about.

[00:02:38] We talk about parents need to do this, schools need to do that. So tell us how the faith based community can join.

[00:02:47] Diana: It’s an amazing thing that happens when we talk about children, because children intersect. And pull together all the threads of community. Children go to school, children are at home, children have networks of friends, they belong to the Girl Scouts, they go to, Cub Scouts, and they’re in Little League, and soccer, and art, and dance.

[00:03:08] But they’re also essential members of our faith communities. In fact, if we think about it for a second, faith communities and religious institutions, faith institutions, whether they’re houses of worship, community centers, the YMCA, the JCC, etc, they are all youth serving organizations. We don’t often frame it that way.

[00:03:30] We don’t think about it in those terms, but they are. And every single faith based institution has computers. We have computers, we have Wi Fi, we have digital footprints, we have access to educational opportunities, we intersect online all the time, with those institutions. So we have a really important role in the safeguarding of children and being a resource in actually building global citizenship and digital literacy.

[00:04:05] If we’re not part of the conversation, we’re part of the problem.

[00:04:09] Sandie: Okay. So. Let’s sit for a minute in what digital literacy actually means, because I’m pretty sure there are communities of folks my age, the grandmas and the grandpas, who feel totally out of sync and unable to engage with their grandkids, because digital literacy is such a looming mountain to climb.

[00:04:37] Diana: Oh my goodness. What does it even mean to be digitally literate? I, I meet people all the time and they’re like, I’m really good on my desktop computer, but I can’t quite figure out my iPad. I’m really good on my phone, but it doesn’t really coordinate with my laptop. And what I have found is if I ask a seven year old, they can tell me how to figure all of it out.

[00:04:59] Children today don’t see the world in that way. So understanding a few basic things about your, your device, right? Digital literacy means understanding the device  itself. This is a supercomputer. The cell phone today is no longer a telephone that’s attached to the wall in the house.

[00:05:16] It’s no longer a place where it’s a conversation just between two people. This is a supercomputer that connects you to anything in the world. It is the most extraordinary gift we have given to our children. And it is the greatest threat that we have put in their very hands. We have such a responsibility to understand the device and the programs that The child is using and who they are communicating with through that device every single day.

[00:05:47] We see these apps. And I remember once talking to a parent, Oh, my child can download anything that’s free.

[00:05:54] Sandie: Oh,

[00:05:55] Diana: I’m like, Nothing is free. So what does that exactly mean? So the parent is saying, Oh, my child could buy anything that, you know, download anything out of the app store so long as it doesn’t cost me, the parent, anything.

[00:06:09] And I’m like, you do understand that if you’re not paying for something, you, the user, you are the commodity. They are buying and selling your information. Now, you go and you download an app. We’ve all done it. We download an app. Now what? Terms and conditions. How many of us have read all the terms and conditions, and I, I dare anybody to read them out loud.

[00:06:33] It’s like watching paint dry.

[00:06:36] Sandie: hmm.

[00:06:36] Diana: It’s a lot of legalese, and we have absolutely no idea what is embedded in there. I’ll give you a small example. Bitmoji. Bitmoji, you go into the terms and conditions, you click yes, okay, you didn’t pay much attention. But if you actually use Bitmoji, and go directly from the app, into your text messages, and send it, Bitmoji now owns all of your text.

[00:07:00] Yes, indeed, that they now have access to all the information on your device. So think about it, the terms and conditions are actually quite important to understand how your information is being used.

[00:07:14] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:07:15] Diana: This is part of digital literacy. We have to understand what’s inside the actual applications, because that’s what they are, they’re applications, the websites we are accessing, how our information is being used, misused, safeguarded, or not.

[00:07:33] So we have to look at all of those aspects when we’re looking at anything that’s on one of these devices. Whether it’s our cell phones, whether it’s the iPad, the laptop, you name it, anything that connects to the internet today is a potential threat. Through the internet, we give our children access to the world.

[00:07:53] We saw during COVID kids could go online, they could do their education, they could take a digital virtual trip. and explore the world, history, culture, music, art, nature. However, we’re also giving the world access to our children. And we have to be conscious of that because we have no idea who’s on the other end of that conversation.

[00:08:16] Sandie: Okay. So, when we started, and you ran through a list of youth facing, faith based organizations, names that are household names for me, I’ve been focused here at the Global Center on educating parents and working with schools and teachers. But when I talk to parents, I realize they feel a sense of safety if they drop their kids off at their, faith based organizations, youth activities.

[00:08:54] It’s so much safer, or there’s just this sense that, I don’t need to worry right now, even to the point of, maybe even oversimplifying this, but sending them to a faith based school because it will be safer. And so I’m curious how, how we can hold those. organizations to the same level of accountability that we do, for instance, to our public schools.

[00:09:26] Diana: Well, they should be following the same rules and regulations, that’s to start. And that means when they’re doing hiring, they should be doing background checks, including the registry for,for child abuse. We should be checking references. We should be training them. And then we need to monitor.

[00:09:47] So that’s from the start. That’s who they employ. It should also carry over to who volunteers. Not every person is a safe person. Not everybody who’s ever perpetrated has been caught, held accountable. They’re not on a registry.

[00:10:03] Sandie: Mm.

[00:10:04] Diana: we have to be mindful of where we leave our children and to understand that there is no one place that is going to 100 percent be a safe place.

[00:10:13] And I don’t say that to create a sense of panic, but a sense of ownership, that I have a responsibility in these spaces as well. That all the spaces where children are should be observable and interruptible. Everything should be out in the open, their child protection policies. Just like the school, the public school, it should be online, it should be visible, that we know that every one of our institutions where a child will be is a safer place.

[00:10:45] We’re mindful of our responsibility. So we have those policies, the training, it’s all available for people to understand, to see, and we welcome parents to participate in those trainings as well. I think it’s really, really important to think. even in those spaces that they’re following the same rules and regulations.

[00:11:06] I’ll give you an example. There was a JCC camp, summer day camp. Oh, the JCC is the Jewish community center.

[00:11:16] Sandie: Oh, okay.

[00:11:17] Diana: It’s like going to the YMCA. It’s exactly the same thing. It’s a community center. It’s faith based. You get kids from every religious background. It’s like the summer camp in the neighborhood. And everybody, whether they’re Jewish, not Jewish, they take their kids there.

[00:11:32] And there’s a JCC and they, this is in the days, gosh, late nineties.

[00:11:39] Sandie: Mm.

[00:11:40] Diana: And there’s a situation where, you know, the counselors are there, they’ve been hired. There’s hasn’t been a lot of, background checks and other things that we’re supposed to be doing to by today’s standard nineties was a different time and place.

[00:11:53] So thinking roughly 25, 30 years ago. And what they find later on after the summer is over that one of the summer camp counselors had been taking images, pictures of boys changing after swim in the locker room.

[00:12:12] Sandie: Mm.

[00:12:13] Diana: and has sold those pictures to a website.

[00:12:17] Sandie: Mm.

[00:12:18] Diana: So here we have CSAM, child sexual abuse material that has been taken, by an adult.

[00:12:26] In a youth serving faith based organization that has now been sold and posted online. So now we have online sexual exploitation, in its very early stages of that online space. Once upon a time, these images were taken and shared as digital files, or printed files, and they were traded in a lot of ways, dare I say, and it kind of gives me, makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up to say it, but traded like baseball cards.

[00:13:00] Sandie: Yeah.

[00:13:01] Diana: Today, these things are flying across the internet, so quickly that it’s hard to believe that, how we can even get it back? How can we contain it? How many images are being, traded online? How many are uploaded daily? How many are uploaded yearly? How many reports go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to the cyber tip line every single year?

[00:13:28] Sandie: Oh, and the report that came out, a year ago showed a 300 percent increase in two years.

[00:13:35] Diana: Uh huh, and really so much of that increase was fueled initially by the pandemic, because everything was happening at online and no one was watching.

[00:13:45] Sandie: so when we’re talking about equipping faith leaders as part of our network, holding them to the same levels of accountability seems to be an important policy for a community to adhere to.

[00:14:02] Diana: Absolutely. You need to be holding them accountable in the same way that the policy should be the same. The procedures for hiring, volunteers, training, monitoring, and reporting.

[00:14:17] Sandie: Mm.

[00:14:19] Diana: There is an instinct in most communities, you see this in even the public schools that the institution kind of closes around.

[00:14:24] We’re going to do our own investigation and you go state by state. You can see what the rules and regulations are, but generally speaking, you’re not supposed to be doing your own internal investigation before you report out. That’s not a good practice. And in most cases, it’s It’s not the policy, it’s not the regulation, and it’s not the law.

[00:14:44] So we actually have to be thinking about how we adhere as we not only want to be part of policy makers and change makers, but actually we then have to follow those rules too. It’s not just good for them, it’s good for us. And we need to lead by our example.

[00:15:01] Sandie: Oh I like that.

[00:15:02] Diana: we want to make our, we need to make our houses of worship and our faith spaces the safest places.

[00:15:08] We have to do everything we can do so that every adult is empowered to protect a child.

[00:15:15] Sandie: So let’s, let’s move over to the other side of this equation and see some of the incredible opportunity for those youth facing faith based centers and works. Because what I’ve experienced when I talk to parents and our students here at Vanguard are live to free peer educators go into the public schools, but parents sometimes say, well, I don’t want my children to get all of that content. I want to do it at my church, at my synagogue, at my temple this is, this is going to be safer to assure that the content is what I as the parent prefer. So when we want to do community outreach with young people and faith based, how do we equip those faith based youth facing, centers?

[00:16:21] How do we actually help them use the best possible digital literacy training, teaching kids to resist grooming, all of those kinds of issues so that we can, we can break through the resistance of the parents on behalf of those children.

[00:16:43] Diana: I think when we talk about partnering, and it really is about partnership, it’s partnering with our faith based institutions. So if it’s going to the YMCA, it’s going to the local church, it’s going to, the faith based youth organization, we start by offering a training to their staff, executive level.

[00:17:04] Let’s get them trained. Let’s have them buy in to the work, the mission and the urgency, because this isn’t a problem that’s going to be a problem in 10 years from now. This is a problem that’s going to be with us for the next. I can’t tell you how many years and it’s only going to exponentially get worse.

[00:17:24] One image of a child is going to be shared hundreds of thousands of times over the course of infinite years.

[00:17:32] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:17:32] Diana: Taking down a photo off, off the internet is near impossible. So we want to get in front of that, right? We want to, we want to change the trajectory for these children. We want to make sure that no one’s grooming them and taking photos.

[00:17:46] And we certainly don’t want them self generating these materials either, which is an increasingly large problem. It just, the numbers are staggering. It’s up over 25 percent amongst, you know, boys in a small age bracket. This is Every year I’m reading, it’s only, it’s up by this much, it’s up by this much, it’s 20 percent here, it’s 50 percent there, it’s 100 percent there, the numbers never cease to amaze and terrify me at the same time.

[00:18:15] so we want to get ahead of that, we want to change the narrative. So offering programs at the executive level, getting faith leaders in particular, who are tremendous advocates on these, in these spaces. So if you have a rabbi, a minister, a priest, an imam, a sheikh, somebody of faith, who’s respected in the community, who’s willing to come with you in helping to open that door and then asking, once you do an initial training and say, we’d like to bring this training to your community.

[00:18:47] Whether it’s to the parents or the rest of the staff and volunteers or to the children directly that you offer to actually, once you’ve worked with the religious leader, whatever their title is, invite them to co teach with you.

[00:19:05] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:19:06] Diana: I often do this. I offer stewards of children, which is, developed by darkness to light.

[00:19:12] I was Charleston, South Carolina, and I’ve been training. I’ve been an authorized facilitator doing this since 2007. And I have trained hundreds of churches and synagogues and mosques. And for anyone who’s ever been resistant, the first thing I say is, come teach with me. I look at the minister, the priest, the imam, come co facilitate with me.

[00:19:34] I want you to help put the religious framework around this. This topic is hard. We need faith as part of this conversation. It’s what helps build resilience. So we need to have that to help bring us comfort in very uncomfortable conversations, and also helps to give us a moral pathway. So if I invite them to be part of the conversation, we work together to develop how we’re going to do this.

[00:20:02] And then we co facilitate. Then we create opportunity. Now, the parent is going to be comfortable who said, I’m not doing that in the public school setting, but my minister’s involved. Oh, okay. Now this is different. Now this speaks to my moral obligation. It speaks to my faith and my faith in action.

[00:20:23] So, I think that’s really where we, we really use our relationships to really build the matrix that we need that safety net under our kids.

[00:20:35] Sandie: I just feel like we’re done. That’s what we needed to communicate, but we’re going to keep going anyway, so this idea of having a trusted faith leader as part of the outreach and the training, the equipping and digital literacy, all of that. Can you give me some examples of how that’s been successful, how I might approach it right here.

[00:21:05] I, you know, it’s been a while since I’ve been had lunch with the local Imam. I did several years ago, but I know that those kids are often not part of the community trainings that are then restricted because of faith practices. I talked to the leaders in that community and they want their kids to have this kind of resilience training. And so it is, for me, this is a super important conversation, and I loved how you framed this as a moral pathway. Instead of becoming oppositional and saying, well, they don’t want this, or they are this, or I’m not, I want to find out how to do this better. So I’ve already taken a few notes. I’m going to intentionally look for ways to co facilitate. What could, parents do when you’re all in the same, maybe soccer team or whatever, and you see that there are kids who have not had digital literacy training to resist grooming? What are some steps along that pathway?

[00:22:28] Diana: Part of it starts with conversation, right? We need to be talking about it. We need to be talking about it all the time. When I talk to faith leaders in particular, I will tell them, you need to get up on the pulpit. I, I don’t care which day of the week you pray, you know, when, the day when your community is together is that’s the day you should be talking about these issues.

[00:22:49] Sandie: not in a separate classroom for just those people that are interested. Oh my gosh, that makes me crazy. No, okay,

[00:22:57] go ahead, call them to the front.

[00:22:59] Diana: call them to the front, but what I always remember, when I started my work almost 25 years ago, I, I remember I would get to a synagogue and they put on the billboard outside, like, Domestic Violence Shabbat. And I was the keynote speaker. So I was the, I was the, giving the sermon that night and it’s domestic violence Shabbat.

[00:23:20] There is no faster way to make sure nobody shows up to Shabbat

[00:23:22] Sandie: Ha, ha, ha, ha, oh

[00:23:25] Diana: So what I started to do back in the day was I focused on once a month, once a month was family Shabbat, family Shabbat was like kids and I would do a story and I would integrate some of these lessons into, Family Shabbat into the storytelling about what we do and what we don’t do, how we navigate difficult conversations, difficult places, and one of the interesting things is that children do a really great job, you know, interpersonal communication because that uh oh feeling,

[00:23:57] you know, kind of like perks up and it still works as adults like that uh oh feeling.

[00:24:01] It’s like, that person doesn’t make me feel comfortable, doesn’t make me feel safe. I’m going to go in this other direction, but we don’t get that feeling online. So that, it’s a, it’s a teaching kids how to do this. So if we could put it into storytelling, then we start to build a framework. But then at least once a month, the, the teachings of our sacred texts, our scriptures, whatever scripture text your faith uses, has stories about vulnerability

[00:24:32] Sandie: mm,

[00:24:33] Diana: and human frailty and things we’ve done really great and moments we really missed the mark.

[00:24:39] There’s stories about humanity. It’s about raising us up and challenging us to do better. So I would take those stories once a month and talk about, pick one, and talk, and frame that conversation in, you know, on that holy day to talk about the issues. People knew that I was going to be talking about issues one, you know, one Shabbat a month.

[00:25:03] That’s what I talked about. I had the most number of people coming to synagogue, and that’s what I did. And I challenge us to do that, that we need to pick the tough topics, and we need to talk about them, not once, not twice, but often, to the point that everybody at the supermarket, when they say, do you know somebody who you could talk to about X, Y, and Z, they go, oh, go talk to Rabbi Diana,

[00:25:26] Sandie: ah, that’s so good.

[00:25:27] Diana: right?

[00:25:28] They, they, it doesn’t matter if they’re from your community or not.

[00:25:32] Sandie: Okay, so you are inspiring me so much because I have been online. I’ve listened to at least 100 podcasts and I’m not exaggerating about the incredible value and absolute necessity of talking to your kids about technology regularly. One, one group at Screenagers, they have Tech Talk Tuesday and just so much of that, but from the, uh, let’s take a 30, 000 foot perspective and our faith families also need to talk tech and whether that’s Tuesday, Wednesday, Saturday, or Sunday, we have to normalize that it’s okay to talk tech and to talk about the risks for sexual exploitation. And that means modeling it, and I really believe that interfaith leaders are trusted thought leaders that can model that in their position of authority and influence.

[00:26:45] I don’t even know where else to go with that, but I just, if you, as a listener, are thinking, Oh, this is kind of a new way. I’m going to have to go talk to my rabbi, my mom, my pastor, my priest, go and have that conversation and start to crack through the tradition that doesn’t include that kind of conversation because our kids are important and we need to normalize the family coming together and talking about the risks.

[00:27:26] Diana: I couldn’t agree more. And I do remember back, if you can think back through the course of life, in your lifetime, in my lifetime, there was once upon a time we used to sit around the table and everybody would whisper the, about the things that we didn’t talk about in polite company. You know, somebody’s got cancer, there’s, somebody got a divorce, somebody has, there was domestic violence, there was child, all these things, it’s like we, we would whisper at the table because it was as if we said it out loud, something bad would happen.

[00:27:58] And over the decades. These things have been normalized, right? We, we talk about cancer, talking about cancer. My goodness, men are wearing mustaches in November. Women are out and wearing pink in October. Like we couldn’t be talking about it more. And it’s a community that rallies around and has changed the trajectory,

[00:28:19] right?

[00:28:19] The, how we treat. treat cancer, prevent cancer, how we work together as a community to support one another. divorce. Divorce was something everybody whispered about. Now 52%, I think it is, of Americans are divorced, right? And so talking about divorce has become very normalized in our communities.

[00:28:39] We started talking about child abuse. Child abuse became illegal in all 50 states. Domestic violence became illegal in all 50 states. All these things took time, and all of these things took time for us to normalize in conversation.

[00:28:56] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:28:57] Diana: Technology and its risks are the same. We need to start to normalize the conversation.

[00:29:04] That it’s not something that, oh, we have to talk about in the back room at the congregation when, when no one else is listening. Look, we’ve had policies in, that have been required of us for a really long time. Since the 80s and 90s, we all have liability insurance in our congregations and our youth serving organizations.

[00:29:22] They all mandate molestation insurance. Those require certain policies, protocols, and training. We now need to live up to those standards and we have to talk about it.

[00:29:34] Sandie: Hmm. Wow. Okay. How do people connect with you and which way should they connect? I’m looking at, Child Dignity Alliance, Partnerships, Hub for Children, UNHCR, GNRC. Tell us, how do we connect?

[00:29:54] Diana: The easiest way to find me, LinkedIn and of course, Instagram, I Instagram @RabbiDiana. So it’s not hard to figure out R A B B I D I A N A. I certainly work with my partners all over the globe. Uh, GNRC today is in over 80 countries and regions around the world. The Global Network of Religions for Children.

[00:30:17] We were just together in Abu Dhabi in November for our sixth global forum. and we had 52 teenagers from 30 countries. Who are participating and it was one of the most incredible fixed days with these young people that inspired and uplifted me to the point that I know we’re going to be okay because these young people, they held our adult feet to the fire.

[00:30:42] It was faith leaders from around the globe, senior, you know, religious leaders, government leaders, civil society partners. And they were like, but you’re not doing enough for us. And I was so blown away by their, by their challenge, by their spirit, by their energy, by their focus and by their candor.

[00:31:03] These children are not afraid to speak their mind.

[00:31:06] Now they were chosen to be there by, by their country, uh, committees. So obviously they were there with purpose. But they came prepared, and they really saw their role as not just the generation of the future, but the generation of now. We have to stop thinking about our children as just, oh, their future, their future, their future.

[00:31:30] No, no, no. It’s right now.

[00:31:32] Sandie: They’re walking on that road.

[00:31:34] Diana: They are on that road, and we want them to have a childhood.

[00:31:39] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:31:39] Diana: We want to safeguard that childhood. But to do that, we have to empower them and their parents. Their community around them because a child’s not necessarily going to tell you their own parent or their own teacher they may tell somebody else’s pastor when they’re sitting there at the end of services because they went to somebody’s you know, somebody’s whether it was confirmation or some other event all of a sudden they may disclose something that they may be discovered

[00:32:08] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:32:09] Diana: And so we have to be there for each other across faith.

[00:32:14] And that’s why I think this is so important is that faith leaders who learn together, grow together, we see each other as our partners. So if the Global Center for Women and Justice started with a advisory council of faith leaders and brought together all the faith leaders from all the different communities, then it’s an incredible opportunity.

[00:32:39] And I think that’s, that’s, that’s the pathway. I used to say that all the time. You know, local communities, they had a, they have the Crime Victims Board, they have this board, they have this organization, this district attorney’s office has a domestic violence thing, child abuse thing. Where are your faith leaders?

[00:32:56] They shouldn’t be in a separate room.

[00:32:57] Sandie: No, no, because they have incredible influence because they are trusted leaders.

[00:33:05] Diana, I can hardly wait for you to be out here in person for Ensure Justice. And I’m looking forward to some of those really great conversations in person. So thank you for being with me today.

[00:33:21] Diana: I cannot thank you enough for having me. This has always been my, one of my favorite conversations is any conversation with you,

[00:33:29] Sandie: Oh, and the same to you. For our listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.org and find the resources Diana and I have been talking about. And if you haven’t visited our site before, take some time and become a subscriber to receive a newsletter with the show notes and whenever a new episode drops.

[00:33:54] And if you’re already a listener, write a review so other people can find us, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and even Facebook. So I’ll see you back here in two weeks.

Jeremy Davis joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss the role of schools in online safety and how educational leaders can foster digital resilience among students.

Jeremy Davis is the Assistant Superintendent for Innovation and Instructional Support for the 12,000-student Fullerton School District in California. He also serves as the Vice President of the California Ed Tech Joint Powers Authority. Jeremy’s role includes overseeing technology, libraries, student data, cybersecurity, and IT networking across the district. His position on the cabinet allows him to lead cross-departmental efforts on online safety, integrating technology and educational support for a comprehensive approach to student well-being.

Sandie Morgan: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California.

This is episode number 339, The Role of Schools in Online Safety with Jeremy Davis. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is a show where we empower you to study the issues. Be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Jeremy Davis is the assistant superintendent for innovation and instructional support for the 12, 000 student Fullerton school district in California, and the vice president of the California Ed tech joint powers authority.

I am so glad to welcome you, Jeremy. I love your job description, innovation, and instructional support.

[00:01:00] Tell me what that means? What’s in your job description?

Jeremy Davis: You know what? I’m very blessed to work in Fullerton. and the, where the TKA is part of Fullerton. we’re one of the few districts in Orange County to actually have my role at the assistant superintendent level. So, I do run the technology department, but that includes educational technology. It also includes the libraries, all the student data, cybersecurity, all the devices, IT, networking, things like that. So in a lot of districts, it’s, it’s like a director of IT or, if you’re lucky, a chief technology officer, but then there’ve been a couple who’ve elevated it to cabinet. and I think it’s super important because of, of things like what we’re going to talk about today,

where I, I’m leading a cross departmental effort on online safety, because it really doesn’t just live in the tech department. It lives in all departments, so I, I’m very appreciative that my, my job includes all kinds of things that might not normally be considered I.T. but yeah, so that’s so director of our assistant super

[00:02:00] innovation puts me over over a lot of things, but also being on cabinet gives me the ability to, really work well within the other departments and sort of set some vision for the district.

Sandie Morgan: Wow. I love that. And I want to thank you again for being a speaker at last year’s Insure Justice Conference and agreeing to do it again this year. So we’re looking forward to that. Our last interview was with a survivor, Alia Azariah. During our conversation, we learned that Ventura’s district attorney’s office gave her an award for resilience. Tell me what your take is on resilience as an element of a youth being protected from online predators.

Jeremy Davis: sure. you know, it’s it’s so interesting how, how many of the children who fall pray, it’s the online predators.

[00:03:00] Are in need of attention, you know, are sort of seeking that attention somewhere and sadly they sometimes find it, online. the resilience piece is understanding how amazing they are as human beings.

and, you know, it’s, it, for me, it goes back, honestly, to faith a little bit for me too, but it’s helping these kids understand that they’re just great people and they don’t need this outside, piece online, but also helping them understand you have no idea who you’re talking to online.

You know, we’ve done a lot of work around the differences between an actual real life relationship and an online relationship and how to determine who you’re even talking to online and do you even know who they are.

Because the resiliency comes from standing up for themselves, from being able to say no. You know, we talk about, we even go into the sex ed curriculum, where there, where, or the drug curriculum. Because if the say no to drug curriculum works really well for say

[00:04:00] no to someone asking you for a nude photo. Right? So you know, if you have negotiation skills and you have the ability to say no, because you’re confident in yourself, that resiliency transfers to everything we do within digital literacy or with digital wellness or online safety. can you say no? If someone asks you, can you say no to pressure?

do you know if the person’s a peer? Like, maybe it’s not even peer pressure. Maybe it’s a, 60 year old trying to get you to this, pretending to be a 12 year old or a 10 year old. So, knowledge gives you power, but knowledge gives you confidence, and confidence breeds resilience, because having that confidence to say no or to say this doesn’t seem right.

We also do a lot of work around trusted adults. and who are your trusted adults on campus, who are your counselors, who are your mental health people, but even who’s your custodian. You know, we have, we have, we have one of our lessons where there’s a slide of every single trusted adult on your campus that if something wrong happens to you and you’re embarrassed, you can go to any of these people and talk to them.

[00:05:00] Or you can go to NECMEC, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and talk to them if you’re not comfortable with anyone on campus. Like we, we try and build up a confidence of it’s okay to say no. And then who can I talk to if I’m concerned about something? So resilience, I think, comes from confidence, and confidence is what we try to breed through knowledge. So it’s sort of that constant drumbeat throughout the year of, of this being taught over and over and over.

Sandie Morgan: Wow. Okay. So, so many things are buzzing in my head, but I’m going to try to stick to this 30 minute podcast. We’ll have to have you back. So you are unique. You’re a unicorn. Actually, I looked for other people like you, and I didn’t find your job title like everywhere. So how have you been? Can we help people outside of Fullerton and Orange County

[00:06:00] and other schools that are facing these challenges?What do they need to be able to develop digital resilience and as educators more effectively address these issues?

Jeremy Davis: I think every district has the ability to do this. I mean, my, my job title is relatively unique. there’s a handful of us around, even around the state. There aren’t that many of us at this level. However, Someone can always pick up the mantle of this, whether it’s ed services working in conjunction with their I.T. department, because, there’s so many roles here when I when I brought this group together to sort of say, Hey, you know, we’ve been doing it pretty well for a number of years, but we’re going to now crank it up to 11. Um, you know, we’re going to go even even further. when we, we had a new board goal, and I’m like, this is great.

We have a board goal focused on this. So now we can pour even more resources into it, more focus. But really. Anybody who, your ed services department can get together with I.T and can get together with human resources or with, [00:07:00] you know, if you have someone in charge. So there’s always someone in charge of social emotional learning somewhere on your campus or district office.

So you have sort of your key players who’s in charge of the digital citizenship aspect, right? Of, of, that sort of online piece who’s in charge of the sex ed piece because we can tie these together. Who’s in charge of social emotional learning. Great. California, healthy kids, like that kind of piece should play a role here.

Who’s in charge of the actual curriculum because you want to see, okay, where, where does this fit into the curriculum? and even honestly, teachers unions get involved because it’s like, Hey, I don’t want to put too much more on your plate, but this is super important for keeping our kids safe and for some of your classroom behaviors.

You know, where does this fit in? So it’s not just one more thing, but it’s more integrated into the curriculum. So really anybody can lead this, this, this role. It’s just in this case, here in Fullerton, it, it fell on my plate, which is great because I, I’m a big advocate for a lot of these pieces.

[00:08:00] I think information literacy is a huge part of what we do, and it’s very important for the kids, too. And, and I was lucky enough to, to help. Not be, I want to say an author though, that’s taking too much credit, but I got to help with a California state model library standards when those were written about 12 years ago. And the literacy part was that, yeah, I don’t know if you’ve seen those standards that came out right,

Sandie Morgan: the library has literacy standards for? oh, that’s great.

Jeremy Davis: Yeah. Every library in America and every school library is supposed to be following these state model library standards. and they’re almost all based on information literacy, which is a huge part of digital wellness. It’s understanding what’s like misinformation. What is not misinformation?

What is, when do you see bias in news online? Like all that is covered, that, that’s all in the, in the state model library standards. But again, they came out right before common core. So they were a little blip because there was a bunch of news that was about to happen on them. And then, Hey, common core and the model library standards didn’t get a lot of play, which is too bad because they’re really amazing.

Sandie Morgan: [00:09:00] I’m, I’m going to be looking that up and I’m sure there’s a link and we will put it in the show notes. That’s great. so that makes me think about being very proactive in my strategies. And I really hear you when you’re talking about we do not want to put something else on a teacher’s plate. And my thing is, instead of adding something, how do we? introduce some of the, introduce some of the skills to existing content that must be teached. It’s in core. And one of the conversations I had probably a decade ago was about what would this look like in a social studies class because you’re talking about equipping students with critical thinking skills.

And to your point, when they have more confidence, they’re more resilient.

[00:10:00] So let’s like imagine, uh, typical social studies class, where would you introduce this scenario as just a part of maybe changing some illustrations? I don’t know. What do you think?

Jeremy Davis: So, I think there’s a number of ways just to backtrack a second. A lot of what we did was we already had, you know, you have to teach these three digital citizenship in the beginning of the year.

We already had that in place going over to the, to the SEL group, the social emotional learning group. They said, Hey, we have this program purchased where the teachers are doing 21 lessons a year, a little bit at a time throughout the entire year. I said, can I can I change some of those lessons?

can we can I look at your whole curriculum and can I make them more digital? Like, like, if you have a lesson on here’s when we changed, it was, the, the, the final performance task was basically, make a chart of like healthy relationships in real life. And so, you know, like I said before, we turned it

[00:11:00] into, you’re now going to do a Venn diagram On how do you know a real life relationship is healthy?

How do you know an online relationship is healthy? How are they different? How are they the same? Right, so we took a lesson that was already being taught manipulated it a little bit to give it that online flair and give more knowledge to the students to make it a digital wellness lesson, not just an SEL lesson.

So that’s how we did it across the district was we, we changed the performance tasks on the SEL curriculum. But looking at like a social studies class, the way I would do it in this case, it wouldn’t so much be A resilience piece. This would be more an information literacy piece, as a social studies teacher, I would be pulling multiple articles about the same topic and I’d have the kids identifying bias. So I’d be saying, okay, we’re going to take a highlighter, you know, yellow is for adjectives because why are there adjectives? Like, honestly, any adjective is a potential spot for bias, any adverbs.

[00:12:00]But let’s look at our describing words. Let’s see if they’re describing a person. Okay. Or describing a decision, instead of just saying, this decision was made by the president, this, this, um, impactful decision, okay, that, that, is that a bias word or is that just an amplifying word? This horrible decision, oh, gosh, well, maybe we got our news from the right or from the left.

So if I had three articles, all about a similar topic, but I could have the kids pick out the bias and then have them go find a good, a good, source. Okay, you find out more about this, but I want you to show me the bias. So, for me, that gives the kids confidence and the knowledge that just because they see something on their phone on a news site doesn’t mean it’s valid.

You know, there, there are lots of news sites that have tons of bias in them. So why not show the students, you have to know, you have to be able to find it multiple places. You should, you should actually look at news

[00:13:00] from the right and from the left, because the, well, where’s the truth? You know, if you just get, and even teaching them confirmation bias, and how when they go searching for something online, that the algorithms actually push them farther towards the extremes very quickly. So if you go looking for a news article, some of those clicks will push you farther and farther away from the middle and towards an extreme based just on your searching, whether it’s YouTube or anything. you know, you go searching for the first amendment and suddenly you’re, you’re in some extremist website or you go searching for something else and you’re way over on Antifa.

It’s like, how did I get here in three clicks? The algorithms try and push you. One way or the other, so teaching the kids that helps them understand and be more confident in their own knowledge.

Sandie Morgan: Um,so you’re making me think about, I’ve started going to the gym this year and I’m being pretty faithful to it, but I am, I am strengthening muscles that have [00:14:00] not been used a lot. And then when I find myself. self in a situation, those muscles are much more responsive. So even though this content about bias and confirmation bias is not directly related to an online predator, when that online predator shows up and starts grooming and uses adjectives that Oh, that’s, that could be misconstrued. this kid is going to push back on that and be what we want more resilient to that. Okay. I. I am a pediatric nurse. First foremost, it’s been part of my life for decades. And I still remember when I would discharge a baby with pneumonia. I looked at the family situation. Where are you living? Is the child getting everything they need, the medication? I mean, they were in the [00:15:00] hospital with pneumonia, but I’m sending them home. So, the bell rings and you send these kids home. What is the partnership? between the schools and the parents and community and caregivers that is going to assure a stronger resistance to digital risks.

Jeremy Davis: You know, um, we do a lot with, parent classes, whenever we can. Sadly, they, we don’t always get the greatest attendance. but like recently we did a, a parent university, for, one of our Title I schools, where we had a number of parents come way back. We’re doing five of them right now at five different schools.

but I came in. to that class for an hour and talk to them about digital wellness at home. you know, told them, look, my devices in their homes aren’t the problem because my devices are filtered no matter where you go. So every child in our district has an [00:16:00] iPad. Third grade and up go home. So when they’re at home with my iPad, number one, parents can control them at home.

So we show parents how they can take control of the iPad. They can turn it off at 8 o’clock. They can lock it so it’s just on like Sora, so they can only read books. They can feel more comfortable if it’s out of sight. you know, we do that kind of work. But I also talked to them about how. Really the problem is unfiltered internet at home and student and like a phone if they’ve given their their students a phone or their own device and they’re letting them be in their bedrooms with it or have it overnight.

So we try and do that education, but we’ve also Turn that education into a video, online, and we’re translating it using some AI. It’s really crazy. It’s my voice and my lips move and I’m speaking Korean. It’s crazy. It’s really cool. So we’re about to launch that. We made sure our translators looked at it to say, yeah, this, this is fine.

but really cool. But, but that way any PTA group could take my. My [00:17:00] presentation that’s normally an hour. It’s we sort of turned into about half an hour because there’s no, no Q and a, but Anybody, any PTA could use it and just send it home and say, Hey, please watch this at some point. So it’s not, you know, if we did it on a five o’clock on a Monday and that’s during soccer.

And we only had five parents come, the rest of them could watch it and still get the same information. we also try and send letters home during the beginning of the year. Um,when our teachers are doing very specific topics on digital safety, there are letters that go home to the parents saying, Hey, this is what we talked about there.

Here’s where you can go on common sense media and get more information. And here are some questions you could talk with your kids about. you know, and I don’t actually know how many parents do,follow up with that at home, but I know we try and get that information out. So the parents know, Hey, this is fresh in your kid’s mind.

If you want to have a discussion.

Sandie Morgan: Okay, so here’s the question. I’m thinking back with my own kids and I would be the [00:18:00] person in the room at the half hour mark with my hand raised and I’ve got more questions. I think I don’t feel confident in responding to this. I’m, they’re better at this than I am. So as a parent, I’m actually a little vulnerable to being told by my own kids that, oh, no, no, that’s not right.

And they take the device away from me. And then, Now that I’ve studied this, it’s like kids can manipulate their parents. And so who do parents go to? Who is, who is their trusted advisor? obviously, I’m not going to give out your cell phone number so everybody can call Jeremy. Although that would make a great hashtag, call Jeremy. where do they go when they don’t feel confident because I think creating a community around our kids that has more resilience and you identified confidence [00:19:00] in this. I think parents are not confident.

Jeremy Davis: I agree. Um, you know, it’s one of the first things I talk about when I’m doing these parent meetings is, hey, whose phone is it, because I talk about, if at 9 o’clock at night, you’ve put the phone in your room and the child now has their phone at 9 o’clock at night. That tells me your lock is broken on your door or your safe isn’t working anymore because, it’s not the child’s phone.

I don’t care if the child, even if the child has a job and pays for the phone, if unless they’re paying for their mortgage out of the house and they’re paying for their insurance and their clothes and their food and their car. Then, no, it’s your phone. And, and so I even have parents, I even say it like three times during my presentation.

Whose phone is it? My phone. Yes, it’s your phone. You’re the parent. It’s your phone. Take it away. turn it off. Call Verizon. That, that phone’s off now. and, and that’s the thing. There, I, I always tell people YouTube is amazing. [00:20:00] It has some stuff on it we don’t love. But at the same time, it’s also the most educational website in the world, right?

So if you want to learn How to deny your child’s phone Wi Fi at home. You go on YouTube and say, How do I turn off the Wi Fi just to one phone? Because you can go onto your home internet, and you can turn it off just for that phone, and say, Nope, you don’t get internet anymore. So, there are a lot of these things you can do, where you go to YouTube and ask the questions, but a lot of what I do, and that you don’t just go print a contract online.

There’s a ton of them, but maybe you get three or four of them. You read through them as a parent, and then you sit down with your child and you say, Hey, before you get this phone, or if they already have a phone, you say, Hey, give me your phone for a minute. You take it back and you say, okay, now, before you continue using this phone, we need to talk about some things.

We need to talk about your behaviors. When you talk about social media, if you’re going to be allowed to have Things like if you’re going to be on social media, number one, I will be your, your friend, you know, and, and the moment I find out you have a [00:21:00] second social media account, the phone’s gone for a month or whatever it is, but, but you work with the kids on this.

If you make a fake social media account and I’m not a part of it, what will the punishment be? And you help the child helps you come up with these punishments. Right? And tweens and teens are different. But, but if you come up with the, with, with the punishment, really consequence, there’s cause and effect here in the world.

So when the child, when you say, Hey, give me your phone, I want to look at your search history and it’s blank and your contract says, if they ever delete their history, they lose their phone for a week. Then you can show them the contract and say, Oh, you did number two. So what’s the consequence? Oh, I lose my phone for the week.

Yeah, gosh, you really made a bad decision, but remember, we decided together as a family, here’s your signature right here on the bottom of it, that if you do number two, if you delete your search history, or you delete your texts, or you delete your emails, then you lose your phone for a week. First offense.

So this is first offense. So I guess we have to go by the [00:22:00] contract. And that’s where the parent has to have the confidence. Because if the parent bends and says, Oh, but you know, um, I need to pick you up from school tomorrow. So, no, you have to have that phone. So, I guess you’ll just lose it for a couple hours tonight.

No, no, no. You figure out how to pick up the kid. Look, you figure out how to deal with not having a phone for a week. Even if it, even if it causes you some kind of problem too. You know, or you go and buy one of these safe phones where it’s just a flip phone. And say, here you go. You can have a backup phone.

We bought it for five bucks and we paid for a hundred minutes. We’re only going to use about three minutes this week, but you get a flip phone. It doesn’t even text. Good luck.

Sandie Morgan: my gosh. You’re tough. You’re, that’s tough parenting,

but it does take confidence,

to be able to do that. A few episodes ago, we interviewed Dr. Delaney Rustin, who, started the Screenagers response. Just fascinating. And she talks about contracts. So go back and listen to [00:23:00] that if this is new conversation for you.

Jeremy. Jeremy. I’m, I’m really concerned about kids who really are more tech savvy than their parents. And this is, this is, this is an area where I think schools can help us by giving out little maybe, here’s some once a month tips. that are constantly reminding parents that their kids are figuring and it’s part of their job.

Once you hit adolescence, your job is to become an independent adult. So you’re not disobeying just because, Oh, I want to disobey and disrespect my parents, but I’m supposed to be learning. It’s my developmental goal, how to be a healthy. independent adult. So they are [00:24:00] constantly working around and on YouTube, you can search and find some ways to work around.

Like a kid whose parents said, no, you can’t have Snapchat, deleted it, and then found a way to go and secretly downloaded again. And so I’m looking on YouTube and I find out, I can find as the parent where the downloads are happening and go and look and see what my kid downloaded. This is a learning Experience, I started to say opportunity, I need some coaching from the school.

And if I were a parent in the, your district, I think that kind of communication beyond events, is is what we’re looking for. It’s like, I need a trusted advisor, just like the kids need a trusted adult.

Jeremy Davis: [00:25:00] Sure. we do social media campaigns as well. pretty consistently around digital wellness. It’ll be things like, Hey, parents, do you know about thorn? And have you subscribed to their blog? Hey, parents, do you know about the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children? You need to subscribe to their blog.

It’s great. Hey, parents, do you know about screenagers? Are you getting their tech talk Tuesday? Emails to have conversations with your kids, right? So we’ll broadcast that out across our Instagram, our Facebook, our Twitter, pretty regularly. And then our schools will pick it up and amplify those as well.

And then part of what I do when I do my talks at the schools, but also what we’ve put online are a lot of guides for parents on potential contracts on some different software that they can download. And that’s all on our internet safety page, which we’re constantly pushing out as well that on the parent side on the parent page.

mainly because one of the, one of the talks I do have with, with when I do my talk is. Hey, you probably need some kind of software on [00:26:00] your phones, depending on your level of trust with your kids, because number one, it’s all about building relationships with your students, with your child. So if you have a great relationship, you have trust, and you can talk to them, then you might not need the software until a certain time.

I always use my kids as examples when I’m doing my talks. One of my kids, is 16 and has never needed the software. I’ve never once put tracking software on a device. One of my children, on the other hand, at about, about 16, also had a significant issue where suddenly I felt the need to put tracking software on every device that, that, you know, that they were connected to.

So we had our consequences. They lost their phone. They lost their gaming computer. They also lost the door to their bedroom. So

Sandie Morgan: Ha! Ha!

Jeremy Davis: okay. We’re gonna be, uh, you know, we know there was a behavior, there’s a consequence to that behavior. You made a bad choice. And just like in life, when you make bad choices, things happen.

and then we put some software on. And so there is software you can get. I always tell the parents, do not put it on [00:27:00] without talking to the kid. do not just put this tracking and spring on. Hey, I’ve been tracking you for three months. Look at all you downloaded snapchat No, you tell them my device my phone my plan I’m putting software on there because you’ve made this decision or that decision And again, everybody gets a parent their own way.

You could start off the first moment you give them a phone and have it being tracked. There’s some really cool software out there. We as a district don’t say, go buy this software. But we instead show people how to search and how to find multiple software. Because some are better for Android, some are better for iPhone, some are better for Xbox 360, some are better for a PC.

So. Maybe you need to track a phone, a gaming PC, and an Xbox 360. So there’s software that’s good for those three devices, whereas a parent, you’re getting alerts. If they’re, if they’re downloading, you’re getting alerts. If they search for certain keywords, that might be,linked to sexuality or whatever it is.

So you can get these alerts and you can sit and have a conversation with your, with your [00:28:00] kiddos around that. But,

and you’re right, the kids will hack them all.

The kids will figure out ways to do some things, but not all.

Sandie Morgan: but we, we still do our best as parents.

Okay. Last question. What about schools? What lessons have you learned that other schools could learn from? Like give me three tips before we sign off.

Jeremy Davis: Number one is it’s everybody’s job. It’s not, I mean, it’s not the IT’s department job to do digital wellness. That’s not, that’s not. It’s everybody’s job. And, and, and when you see how it all really fits together in my presentation, I have it all mapped out where you see digital wellness and you see the castle, the California SEL standards, and you see like the health standards and how they all really, really work together really well.

This is a whole district effort, to move forward. So that’s number one. Number two, I think getting parents involved as much as you can, but if they’re not coming. Do you reach them other ways? Like we talked about, like with social media or making videos and pushing them out and then translating those videos and [00:29:00] getting those out.

but also talking to the students. I did, uh, focus groups with kids around our digital wellness lessons and had them tell me what they liked and didn’t like what they were learning and didn’t learn. And now we survey our kids every single year, twice a year, and the survey points they don’t do well on become our next set of lessons.

So it’s like, okay, they didn’t, they didn’t understand that, even though we’ve taught it to them a bunch of times, I only have 50 percent of kids who think this, therefore I need to get that up to 80. So I need to make a new lesson. And now we’re going to readapt our videos and change and add that lesson in, resurvey at the end of the year and see if their knowledge has grown.

So some kind of measure, you know, cause a lot of times it’s just throw out digital safety lessons. No idea if they worked or not, but you should have some kind of accountability, some kind of measure Before you start teaching after you’ve taught at the end of the year Where are we and then how do you adjust and move forward?

You don’t just keep teaching the same thing.

Sandie Morgan: Wow. Jeremy Davis. I will invite you back, we’ll have more conversations. [00:30:00] We can keep our kids safe, but we also must build resilience. So my key takeaway today is that we’re going to have more confident kids who can say no to unhealthy relationships and to things they see online. So I thank you so much, Jeremy.

Jeremy Davis: You’re welcome. Thank

you

Sandie Morgan: listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to ending human trafficking. org to find the resources we’ve mentioned today and so much more. And if you haven’t visited our site before, take time and become a subscriber to receive a newsletter with the show notes when a new Episode drops. And if you’re already a listener, write a review to help others find us and follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. We want to stay [00:31:00] connected together. We will build confidence and resilience in keeping our community safe online. I’ll see you in two weeks.

Alia Azariah joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss her journey from being an online victim of trafficking to becoming an advocate for youth and aftercare.

Alia Azariah is a passionate advocate and survivor dedicated to ending human trafficking and empowering those affected by this grave violation of human rights. Her focus lies in creating safe and sustainable communities through education and advocacy, service provision, and social justice. With a combination of professional knowledge, personal experience, and compassion, she works diligently at both local and national levels to create lasting change in the lives of trafficking survivors through specialized training and safe housing initiatives.

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the ending human trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 338 survivor alia Azariah, from online victim to serving youth and aftercare. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:35] Alia Azariah is a passionate advocate and survivor dedicated to ending human trafficking and empowering those affected by this grave violation of human rights.

[00:00:49] Her focus lies in creating safe and sustainable communities through education, advocacy, service provision, and social justice with a combination of professional knowledge, personal experience, and compassion. She works diligently at both local and national levels to create lasting change in the lives of trafficking survivors through specialized training and safe housing initiatives.

[00:01:22] Alia, it is such a delight to have you on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. And as I was reading your bio, it sounded like you’ve been part of Global Center for Women and Justice for years. use a lot of the same language that we do in our work against human trafficking. So welcome to the show.

[00:01:47] Alia: Thank you.

[00:01:48] Sandie: So let’s start out withy experience go back a few years

[00:01:56] to when you were a young person and you were online on MySpace and tell us about that part of your story.

[00:02:09] Alia: Yeah, so I was vulnerable before I ever got on the computer, right? And so that’s important because I was already, like, experiencing a lot of bullying at school. I was already, lacking family support. I was involved in a group of students at school who were very young and yet making really scary choices already.

[00:02:31] And this was about 6th grade, and so I had a lot of vulnerabilities before I ever got to social media, and so when you mixed those things together, it was really a prime, situation for exploitation and for meeting people who were looking to fill a need, and I was going to social media Hoping to get a need met, right?

[00:02:52] So my, my goal for social media wasn’t to talk to the friends that I already had, wasn’t to communicate with family. My goal entering social media was to fulfill my needs of, one, having people who cared about me. I already had like mixed messages in my mind about how people were supposed to care about you.

[00:03:14] So that was really, really priming me for exploitation. So I was already, even outside of social media, looking for my needs to be met by adult men, believing that that was like how I could best get those needs met. And so social media seemed like a more streamlined version to a way of having those needs met.

[00:03:35] And then I was looking for people to, to, buy me new shoes and, and things that, most teens want, right, but are getting from their parents or the people that take care of them, usually. and so, this was also just a dangerous time, as it is even now, but in a different way with social media, in that at least now we know what the dangers are.

[00:03:55] And we have things to prevent some of those dangers. When MySpace launched, nobody knew what social media could present. Nobody knew or thought of what the dangers were because it was brand new. Right. And so these weren’t conversations we were having in schools or with parents or things like that.

[00:04:14] And so, nobody even really knew to know if I had a social, a social media page. nobody was wondering if I had a MySpace and, creating rules and boundaries around what that looked like. And so when I created a MySpace, I was going on there. To connect with people that I didn’t know, because I thought that that would, that would fill my needs.

[00:04:34] and in many ways, I think the hard thing is like it did. It fulfilled them in ways that were really unhealthy and really unsafe and led me to being trafficked. But that was the kind of the tool that my trafficker used was the fact that he was able to fulfill those needs for somebody who cared about me.

[00:04:50] He was able to say those things to me that he needed, to. And so I was already meeting up with people via MySpace when I met my trafficker. I was running away outside of social media. And I would find myself in situations that were really, really scary. When I would run away, when I would just meet people on the street.

[00:05:11] and so I, I was using, you know, now I look back and go like, look at my little 12, 13 year old self. doing harm reduction in my own life, you know, and, and I felt like, okay, if I meet people on social media, at least I know who I’m meeting with. And I can kind of like, maybe get a vibe from them was what I was trying to do.

[00:05:32] It was actually trying to keep myself safe and, but of course, safety is really skewed when you’ve grown up in a vulnerable home and things. So, I was meeting people on social media, and I would run away, and at least I would have a place to stay, and I would have, like, a roof over my head when I would run away, and then I would come back home, and, you know, a couple weeks later, I would do it again.

[00:05:53] and, one time, this one time, I was communicating with somebody over social media that I was planning on running away with, and it, I didn’t know this. You know, we didn’t talk about trafficking. This was probably like 2004. and I was communicating with him over social media and the person on the other side of the computer was someone who had a history of trafficking girls.

[00:06:17] He’d been doing this. He was 28 at the time that I was messaging him. I think he had started trafficking girls when he was like 17. and so he’d been doing this for, a decade. And, what he struck me as different than the other people that I had been really being exploited by as well, but not in this like third party trafficker kind of way.

[00:06:40] he struck me as different because his goal was not to meet with me that day. Whereas everyone else that I had been, like, it was like very clearly, I know what their goal is. I’m just trying to find a place to stay. that was my goal. They had their goal. He showed me that his goal was to get to know me.

[00:06:59] His goal was to find out like who I was and to tell me that he cared about me and to talk to me. And that was like the most enticing thing. And the thing that I didn’t, I didn’t have a dad. I didn’t have real men in my life who were taking care of me and were showing interest in me. And so. It instantly, even over social media, created a, like an extreme bond that his goal was not to get me to meet up that day.

[00:07:30] His goal was to love me. And even when we did end up meeting up maybe a week or so after communicating online, he, we just sat in his truck at the end of my street. He did not sleep with me. He did not get me high. He just sat there with me and told me that I should probably go back inside. And so we sat there until like late in the morning and then he had me go back inside.

[00:07:54] And so he was building this trust and this, belief that like he was so different from all of these other experiences that I had and that, his goal was not just to like fill my need and get out and his goal was to take care of me. And so that was like how he was using this like grooming process.

[00:08:15] that was the message that he was, he was, giving me in this grooming process over social media and over our interactions was that he wanted to take care of me and that he was going to be there for me. which was much more powerful. That was an extremely powerful belief to embed in my mind that he wanted to take care of me and make me feel safe, because that was something that, that was a need I didn’t, that was a very significant need that was empty and not being felt in my life.

[00:08:49] Sandie: So I love the fact that you can go back and look at your younger self and teach us about that vulnerability from the young person’s perspective. It’s like Monday morning quarterbacking from your chair. And so I’m really interested in how you as now a professional apply Maslow’s hierarchy to what happened.

[00:09:17] Alia: Yeah, I, I love Maslow’s hierarchy because I think what I see and what I’m sure you see and everyone sees is like, of course, There is a significant portion of people who’ve been trafficked that have all of the same vulnerability, right? There’s a lot that have the same vulnerabilities. But we also run across, I mean, I’ve run across women who had master’s degrees before they were ever exploited, or, you know, doctorates even, or came from families that were really, really supportive.

[00:09:49] And I think Maslow’s hierarchy helps us understand how they were exploited also instead of kind of grouping everybody together into, well, you had to have been sexually abused when you were younger and you experienced poverty and you were within the foster system because it broadens our idea of what a vulnerable person is.

[00:10:10] And so if we look at Maslow’s hierarchy, right, like, Of course, the people who have that bottom level of physiological, physical needs, of course, those people who don’t have that met are going to be significantly vulnerable, but it allows us to broaden like the, the, these people who are just searching for truth, and searching for purpose, and searching for belonging, and searching to the, for, the best version of who they can be.

[00:10:36] They’re vulnerable, too, if they’re met with the right trafficker who knows how to exploit that thing and how to, like, come in and say, like, I’m gonna, you know, I have girls who it’s been like, I’m gonna make you a star, right? that’s not That’s not this bottom. They had food. They had house. They had this, but they wanted, they were searching for something more.

[00:10:55] And if you have a trafficker who promises whatever need it is, you’re vulnerable. and so I think it helps us like broaden that. And like, there is a book, there’s a few books out there that, I’ve been able to get my hands on that are written by pimps or traffickers. And if you’re interested, make sure you buy it used or look at it used.

[00:11:14] Don’t buy it new. They get the royalties. Little disclaimer in there, but they have pictures of Maslow’s Hierarchy in them, or they have elements of Maslow’s Hierarchy in them, or they’ll even talk about like, there’s one, I think it was Pimpology, I can’t remember which book it was, but there was one of the books that was like, It says like, if you can’t find a need, make one.

[00:11:36] if you can’t find, like a, a, a place of insignificance in their life, create it. And then fill. So, I, I, the thing I think, though, is that’s so great about Maslow’s Hierarchy is it allows us to understand some of those things that we’re like, wait, but this person didn’t grow up vulnerable. How could a trafficker get in there and, and can, fill a need if they had a house and they had a supportive family because it broadens those things that create need.

[00:12:03] Sandie: Absolutely. And sometimes, the vulnerability is having dreams.

[00:12:08] Alia: Totally.

[00:12:09] Sandie: Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, you have come a long way from my space. And in fact, I am so impressed that you received the prestigious resiliency award from Ventura County District Attorney’s Office. Shout out to Ventura. County for that recognition and applause for you.

[00:12:33] I want to know, how your personal journey shaped that, how it shaped your approach to working with survivors and mentorship that led to you to being recognized for resiliency. That’s like more than just, I’m okay. It means. I’ve bounced back,

[00:12:59] Alia: Right? I think, for me, my trafficking went on for so long, you know, I was in, in, you know, of course with breaks and trying to get out, things like that, but my first experience of being exploited was in, 2003 or 2004. And my last experience was in the beginning of 2018, and so I had trafficking experiences all throughout that time.

[00:13:22] And, I learned so much in that. I learned how difficult it is to leave. I learned, a lot about what other people had gone through, because of course you’re not usually trapped. Some people are, but my experience wasn’t that I was trafficked in like a silo where I was the only person being trafficked that I met.

[00:13:40] and so I learned a lot about other people that were being exploited. and I had multiple traffickers, and so I learned a lot about different types of exploitation and how it can look different based on, the type of exploiter that you’re with. and I made a lot of either like made a lot of decisions out of my own trauma and my own like attempt to survival or were forced into a lot of positions that caused a lot of damage, by the time that I was able to exit.

[00:14:06] And so when I go into working with other survivors, I think it gave me like a really a breath of kind of experience and understanding to be able to like hold space for people and understand that our journeys, just, look, our journeys are not clean, and I had to do, because of the way, and not that all survivors don’t need to do a lot of work to, find healing, we do, but I think, the longer you’re in the life and the longer that’s your normal, maybe the more of the worldview you have to break down, to reintegrate successfully, and so I had to do a lot of, not just, like, rewriting trauma responses, but a lot of, creating an entire new worldview, in order to do well in life.

[00:14:56] and so, because I’ve done that, when I work with a survivor, it’s, easier for me to understand where they’re coming from and to not ever have this feeling of like, well, they’re too far, or that’s too messy, or that’s too hard and I’m, I’m really grateful that I’m able to articulate, I, like, I, found a lot of healing from like understanding why my brain kept sabotaging me.

[00:15:24] and so I did a lot of work when I was healing in trying to understand if I don’t want to go back to the life and I don’t want this to keep happening why do I want this? Why do I want to go back to the life today? If that’s not what I want, why do I want to do it today? and so, that’s like one of the biggest things that I encounter with survivors, is they’re like, Today I want to go back, so that means I need to go back, or that means nothing mattered.

[00:15:47] And really being able to articulate like the, you know, neuro, pathways and things, and being able to like give them freedom in that way. But, I think it’s really helped me, like, hold space for the process, and, come back time and time again and know that, like, I think the biggest thing for me is, like, I got better and I got out and I found healing through community.

[00:16:09] if I didn’t have a village of people that assisted me in my exit and in my recovery for multiple years after, and even now. I wouldn’t have gotten better. It wouldn’t have been therapy alone or programming alone. Like, I needed so many people to just be with and just spend time with, that that’s something that I’m like grateful I get to be a part of the community for others and kind of help build that and broaden that message.

[00:16:42] Sandie: so let me drill down just a little bit on the, the theme of you did the work, you did the work. And as I’ve become friends and part of someone’s village, this sense of personal responsibility in your healing is something that I don’t always see acknowledged in the The programs that come alongside and want to, serve well intentioned, but making it too easy, maybe, I’m not sure what that means, but I, I just, I, I hear successful survivors who say, I did this, I made this happen.

[00:17:33] And that is a commitment. That is a key element of resiliency. So I want to talk about how as a survivor leader working within existing systems, how do you address those wonderful allies who are trying to do it all for you? maybe any other observations.

[00:17:57] Alia: yeah, I think I have been so spoiled in the field, honestly, in that my first position is still my main position and they’re gonna have to kick me out the door, kicking, like, kicking and screaming to get rid of me, because my first experience in the field was with allies, our CEO and COO, who put me in a position that honestly, like looking at my resume, I had no business being in and said, we’re going to teach you, we’re going to teach you how to do this job.

[00:18:30] And we’re going to teach you to do it well. And right now, all you have is your own lived experience and, and almost a degree didn’t even have a degree yet. but we believe you can do it. And so we’re going to teach you. And so I’m really blessed, really lucky to have had that experience. And what I’ve seen is that that’s not the usual experience of survivor leaders in the field, that usually the experience is, this is kind of what we believe survivors are able to do, they work great with other survivors, we love putting survivors in direct care positions, we love having survivors as consultants, we love having survivors as advocates.

[00:19:06] As speaker roles, but when it comes to like, especially executive leadership, leadership positions, administration positions, those just don’t gel with. Survivor skill sets or they’re not the place where like the survivor voice is most needed and I really have been wanting to push back and been pushing back on some of those and trying to guide organizations to being like, we need to be a part of teaching survivors

[00:19:32] how to step into those roles because anybody who’s good at those things, they’ve got to be good at those positions by having the experience and to do that. Nobody, you know, no executive, no ED didn’t have some kind of at least tangential, experiences that helped them learn how to do that.

[00:19:50] Or, maybe they didn’t. I have known EDs who had no experience and stepped in, and they learned, and they fought, sought help, and they found out how. And survivors are just as capable of learning that as anyone else, right? And so, I’ve really been trying to push, like, allies to find, like, how do you hire on character, how do you hire on, goals, and then come alongside with the learning to be able to equip somebody to sit in those positions, because this needs to be a joint effort, like, I couldn’t, I would never be where I am and have the, the skill set that I have if my supervisors Didn’t have expectations that I could learn and that I could accomplish things that I didn’t know how to do when I step into, when I stepped into the field.

[00:20:39] and it’s really, it’s been incredible, obviously for my professional experience, but even for my personal growth and like self esteem to know like, oh, I can learn how to do Excel.

[00:20:51] Sandie: Oh wow.

[00:20:53] Sandie: Oh my gosh, you’re so funny because I’ve been trying to learn how to do Excel and I’m overwhelmed and I can’t do it. And,

[00:21:00] and and we’re going to make sure we put a link to safe house project because they are doing this well, and they’re such a model for the rest of us to learn from so we got We will definitely need to follow up on that conversation in another episode when we’re looking at where the biggest needs are to create that kind of lasting impact.

[00:21:30] What do you want to say to, those of us in the field? Some of us have been doing this for a very long time. we’re disappointed with our results and we just don’t know the next path. Tell us.

[00:21:45] Alia: Yeah, so I am really passionate about emergency solutions for minors. I, I mean, we need everything for adults, of course, and we need all of the solutions for minors also. But what I’m seeing, right, as this was my experience as a minor, this is the experience of, most of the adults that I’m friends with, or mentor, and especially the experience of the minors that I’m working with right now, is We’re not coming alongside with appropriate solutions for those six months post exploitation.

[00:22:23] and I think sometimes we have tried to over compensate for the poor solutions that we’ve had in the past, as far as like, we all know juvenile system and the juvenile justice system and like a lockdown behavioral health hospital are not the solution.

[00:22:43] We’ve gotten to a point where we understand that, right? But we’re asking, so we’ve created these like CSEC specific STRTPs, and we’re asking them to do the work of the first six months. And that’s not what they’re set up to do. I have worked with almost all of them across the state, and I think they would, and so they look like they’re unsuccessful.

[00:23:09] They look like these CSEC STRTPs are unsuccessful.

[00:23:12] Sandie: let’s define STRTP.

[00:23:14] Alia: Yeah, short term residential treatment program

[00:23:17] therapeutic congregate care for youth. That’s what an STRTP is. But I think they would be successful if they were getting youth who’d been stabilized already. I think that the way that these programs are written, they would be able to do something in that second six months to nine months with the youth about trying to like help reintegrate.

[00:23:37] Let’s focus on Let’s get into the deep healing. But when I have a kid that can’t get out of survival mode and like runs every three days, like we can’t, of course the STRTP or the safe home isn’t looking like it’s working and it’s looking like it’s a bad place because this kid is in a place where they can’t engage therapeutically about their trafficking.

[00:23:59] Like they’re not in that place. And so we’ve made these solutions to step in so that juvenile justice isn’t a solution, but we’re not using them. Our kids are still in juvenile justice systems and our kids are still in really locked down behavioral health centers that, that can take them right away off the street.

[00:24:21] And we’re just looking like we’ve done the thing that we’re supposed to do and we’re not, we haven’t actually because all the kids I’m working with are still in juvenile justice and they are still in the lockdown behavioral health centers that are not equipped for this population of kids. Other populations of kids, I think they’re doing really great work, not equipped for this population.

[00:24:44] It’s hard to have a lot of girls who are all exploited, especially in California, especially in, the world that we live in where they’re all connected. That’s what I’m noticing, is all the girls know each other, even if this one’s from Oakland and this one’s from San Diego. They know each other because this one knew this one’s cousin and they were in this group home together and they knew this and they know this person through social media.

[00:25:09] So you’re not getting six strangers in a treatment program together anymore. You’re getting six girls that are already connected who already have trafficking experiences and asking them to heal alongside of each other. When they can’t even, because they’re all together, they can’t even get out of survival mode.

[00:25:25] and so I’m really like passionate about finding some more appropriate solutions for youth that are just coming off the street, who have significant C Sec and trauma history, and significant rates of elopement, that those girls need a different option.

[00:25:42] Sandie: Well, that makes, me really glad that you are a member of the California CSEC Action Teams Advisory Board and so you’re working on improving policies and practices for children impacted by commercial sexual exploitation. I’d love to have another conversation in a future episode

[00:26:06] To talk about how we can improve policies at a local level, at a county level, at a state and at a national and I do believe that that conversation includes changing language that is already established and codified in our legal system. And so there’s confusion about how we talk about this that ends up labeling victims.

[00:26:37] And I’m getting away from our topic. And so I want to jump back to where we started as a vulnerable youth. Engaging with an adult equipped with the knowledge of Maslow’s hierarchy, that always just blows me away because that means that if we want to compete with the people recruiting our kids, we need to understand Maslow’s, and so you’re a mom. And I want to know how you’ve taken your knowledge, your experience, everything you’ve learned, and now you’re like officially labeled as a resilient survivor with a lot of influence. How are you applying this in your own home for internet safety?

[00:27:29] Alia: yeah.

[00:27:30] Alia: Well, we start by example. We start by the way that like I conduct myself on social media or that my husband consults, conducts himself on social media, and we don’t post very personal things. Obviously, as a survivor who’s really vocal, I have a lot of my personal things out there already, but I don’t have I don’t, I keep like my.

[00:27:52] My personal life inside my home, very separate from like my survivorship and my,voice in the field. So my pictures of my kids don’t go on social media, full pictures of our family doesn’t go on social media, my husband does the same thing, we keep our private life very private, he uses his social media for work.

[00:28:11] And that’s pretty much it. so that example is set for them, so that’s helpful. But we also have a lot of rules that don’t always make sense to the kids. but that are, we are on the same page with that. We, our kids are not allowed to have social media until they’re 16. So our oldest is coming up on that, and so she’s gonna get to have that.

[00:28:34] The amount of conversations we’ve been able to have with her, you know, up until 16, that’s significant. There’s so many conversations about social media that we’ve been able to have when, before she turns 16 this year, so many things, so many mistakes she’s been able to see her friends make before she ever got on social media.

[00:28:54] so that kind of reinforced some of those things that we’ve told her. We also, don’t have, games where they can, where people can communicate with you, and things like that, so, like, I, we have a nine year old, and, she’s not allowed to have Roblox, and she is devastated, and has been devastated for years, and has asked me for years, and, But I’ve been able to explain to her like this isn’t this isn’t because I don’t want you to have fun like there’s all sorts of other ways that we can have fun, I believe that like this, there’s a risk to your safety with people being able to communicate with you and, and so she understands that and we’ve been able to have like another thing that we’re really for us, that’s really important, is we’ve taught the older two about sextortion, the nine, my nine year old, we haven’t had that conversation with, but the older two know, because that is such an epidemic right now, the sextortion piece, so that, I mean, we can’t control, I can’t control what they do when they’re not in the home.

[00:29:54] Right? And we’re not so naive to think that, like, if she wanted to get social media and hide it from us, they’re smart kids. I’m sure she and my son could do that if they wanted to, and so we, but we have taught them that, this thing happens, where people will pretend to be one thing, or they will be one thing.

[00:30:13] you know, and they will try and blackmail, or, or extort a youth, and I need you to know that if that ever happens to you or your friend, you need to tell us, and we care way more about helping you through that situation than we do about, the consequence that you had social media when you weren’t supposed to.

[00:30:29] and so we have a lot of conversations, about safety, what safety looks like online. and I really believe that like the knowledge is power piece of all of this. Like we’re, we’re, we’ve taught them in an age appropriate way about exploitation and the dangers of the world.

[00:30:44] And, and sometimes they feel like it’s, you know, it’s not like my kids are great with these rules.

[00:30:52] Sandie: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And that’s going to be one of the things that we’re talking about at Ensure Justice, March 7th and 8th here at Vanguard University. I’m so glad you’re going to be part of that conversation as we sign off, but not for the last time we’ll have more conversations. Tell us how to find you.

[00:31:15] Alia: Yeah, well, you can find me, on at, at everything to do with Safe House Project. Basically via email is my easiest way of communicating, which is just Alia, A L I A @safehouseproject.org. But I’m also on LinkedIn, Alia Azariah, and that’s tends to be the social media and my place of communication and posting that I use the most, and you can find me at Ensure Justice in March too.

[00:31:38] Sandie: Oh, that’s so great. Thank you so much for today, Alia. I look forward to becoming part of your village and you as part of my village.

[00:31:48] Yes, thanks for having me.

[00:31:50] Alia: Thank you for joining us today, Alia. And I’ll see you at Ensure Justice, March 7th and 8th. Listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to ending human trafficking.

[00:32:05] Sandie: org to find the resources we’ve mentioned today and to And so much more. If you haven’t visited our site before, take some time, look around at the resources, become a subscriber, and you’ll receive a newsletter with the show notes whenever a new episode drops. And if you’re already a listener, will you write a review to help others find us?

[00:32:35] And of course, follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Ending Human Trafficking, Instagram at EHT underscore podcast, stay connected, be part of our community. Of course, I will be back in two weeks.

Dr. Delaney Ruston joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss parenting strategies in the digital age, focusing on mental health, communication, and her book Parenting in the Screen Age.

Dr. Delaney Ruston is a physician and award-winning filmmaker renowned for her impactful documentaries, including the Screenagers series, which explores the intersection of technology and youth well-being. She has appeared on numerous media outlets discussing screen time, mental health, and parenting in the digital age. Dr. Ruston also hosts the Screenagers podcast and blog, offering practical advice to families navigating digital challenges. Her work is driven by a passion for fostering open conversations about mental health and technology’s role in our lives.

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 337, Dr. Delaney Rustin and Parenting in the Screen Age. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:33] Sandie: Dr. Delaney Rustin is a physician and award winning filmmaker renowned for her impactful documentaries, including the ScreenAgers series, now comprising four films that explore the intersection of technology and youth well being.

[00:00:53] Sandie: She has appeared on numerous media outlets discussing screen time, mental health, and parenting in the digital age. She is the voice behind the Screenagers podcast. and blog and offers practical advice to families navigating digital challenges. Her work is driven by a passion for fostering open conversations about mental health and technology’s role in our lives.

[00:01:26] Sandie: Today, we’re going to talk about her book, Parenting in the Screen Age, a guide for calm conversations.

[00:01:35] Sandie: I am so happy to have Dr. Delaney Rustin with us for this episode of Ending Human Trafficking. Welcome.

[00:01:45] Delaney: Oh, it’s wonderful, Sandy, to be here. Thank you.

[00:01:48] Sandie: We are, let me just tell everybody that in our next Insure Justice, March 7th and 8th, we’re going to be screening the movie Screenagers. And I’m excited now to have this interview to talk with Dr. Rustin about her book. And do you want to kind of give us a snapshot of the book and why you wrote it?

[00:02:18] Delaney: Oh, absolutely. I, 12 years ago, was really struggling at home with my two kids who wanted more and more screen time. And I had been doing documentaries on mental health issues. And I found that the mental health, if you could say that in our family, the stress was so high. And I felt completely confused on what to do.

[00:02:44] Delaney: I didn’t,

[00:02:48] Delaney: So I started to wonder as a doctor who takes care of teens and adults, what I could do to look for solutions. And I started to make the first Greenagers movie. which is called Screen Readers Growing Up in the Digital Age, which came out in 2016, although we just re released it, updated. Since then, there’s been three other documentaries.

[00:03:14] Delaney: During the time that I became much more knowledgeable, as I went on this journey to help my family, my kids, my patients, I In making these films, learned so much that I realized it would be really helpful to parents to have this information in a book. I did my residency at San Francisco and I stayed on for a couple years to do research on human to human communication.

[00:03:45] Delaney: The ways that we can more effectively use communication for good, as well as in your world, how communication can be manipulative and take advantage of people. Well, I want to be opposite. How do we as parents use techniques that understand the development of our children, understand our struggles to not be triggered by our intense emotions that we have in parenting this, and use that knowledge of communication science?

[00:04:15] Delaney: Along with everything I’ve been learning in making the documentaries and to put that in a book called Parenting in the Screen Age.

[00:04:24] Sandie: I would recommend highly listeners that you go and look for your closest bookstore, go on Amazon. and order this book. even if you’re not currently raising young people, it’s a great tool to share in, in your community. Grandparents would value this as well. So, because my community, I’m a grandparent.

[00:04:53] Sandie: And grandparents are really concerned about their grandchildren growing up in a digital age. So I’ve started recommending it to all the grandmas and grandpas. So let’s talk about the book. How did you lay it out? And can I say parenting in the screen age and the subtitle? I love a guide for calm conversations.

[00:05:16] Sandie: Because when I talk to parents who are intensely. In the middle of this right now and having flaming arguments about you can’t take that away. And, and I’ve talked to parents who have decided to shut down the internet at their house at eight o’clock at night. I’ve talked to parents who gave up and their kids don’t have any supervision.

[00:05:43] Sandie: And I often, correlate this with how we teach our kids to be safe on the streets. We started, we, when they were toddlers and could walk, and we held their hand and we said, you walk across the street when there is a crosswalk. So there’s, there’s boundaries, there’s guardrails for how you do this, and it’s not the same rule from the time you’re three years old until you’re 13.

[00:06:11] Sandie: When you’re 13, you’re walking across the crosswalk by yourself. So this book for calm conversation is really based on your experience in communication. So tell us how the book is broken down.

[00:06:27] Delaney: Yes, and I would say what’s really important is what you just mentioned. Having boundaries and limits on the, the most attention grabbing, devices ever created is incredibly important and part of our job as parents and yet there’s all this discussion in the media, how much time is okay, how much is not.

[00:06:50] Delaney: We’re not talking about the real how to. So let me give a context of first the number one thing that I say to parents which is in the book, which is there’s really no And I think it’s a better way to approach this than to have a calm conversation, whether it be once a week, which I recommend, or once every two weeks.

[00:07:15] Delaney: But you really, and I’m going to say how to do this. It’s the number one thing that is in the book and that I have still now on the stage and working in my clinic room, whatever the audience is, how valuable and vital this is. And the reason it is so important is that every day there is new things in the, in the internet age that is impacting all of us.

[00:07:45] Delaney: There are good things and there are hard things. And we get to work with our kids to have them be incredible, critical consumers of all that’s happening. And Work with them to make sure they have a very full life and it’s not overly consumed by the digital age. I made a lot of mistakes and I’m going to be telling you some of them in this interview.

[00:08:11] Delaney: I’m going to start by saying in, we call it in our home and now I have eight years of blog that helps a lot of parents, which is called Tech Talk Tuesdays. And the idea is to have a short five minute conversation with our families once a week about technology. But I was doing it wrong when we started. I was just wanting to focus on the problems.

[00:08:34] Delaney: And in fact, my daughter, when we gave her a smartphone, which by the way I would have delayed longer had I been able to know better, and And I shouldn’t say just no better, if we could have done it as a collective community to all delay. And I say that in the updated version now. Ultimately though, when I gave that to her, we also gave her a contract.

[00:08:58] Delaney: And we tried to get her to, put in there what she wanted also. And so that it would be a collaborative. She just tuned out. She didn’t want to talk about it. She didn’t want to do it. It was a real What didn’t go well, I realized that I hadn’t validated enough of the reasons why she wanted to use technology.

[00:09:19] Delaney: It’s this, it’s the same reality that people want to be understood as much as they want what they think they want.

[00:09:27] Sandie: you, can you describe what you mean by validated?

[00:09:32] Delaney: Yes, I needed to say to Tessa, wow, tell me more about why you love being on Snapchat with your friends. And then she would tell me and I would actually repeat back some of it. Oh, okay, you, you really, it does feel good when you’re invited into a Snapchat group that you feel really like and I’ll try to use her same words.

[00:09:53] Delaney: I want her to Really see that I get it doesn’t mean I agree with it doesn’t mean that I’m condoning it and say that’s fantastic Let’s get you more time on

[00:10:02] Sandie: Ah, ha, ha,

[00:10:04] Delaney: It’s just that she’s seen. Oh my mom gets it She’s not just saying oh you should not ever use that whatever because then she’s then the brain writes that person off Then they feel justified in their conscious and unconscious to say, Oh, I’m not going to listen to how we’re trying to do this safely and limit the amount of time because my mom doesn’t get it.

[00:10:27] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:10:29] Delaney: And it’s the same way, for example, as a doctor. Let’s say I have a parent who brings in their 10 year old, 11 year old who has an earache. And I look in there and I see it’s a little inflamed, but it really, the whole, everything fits that it’s a virus and doesn’t need antibiotics. I’ll say back to the parent, actually, I’m usually talking with the child because it’s a wonderful, uh, and the parent keeps wanting to, to speak up, but I just love to not talk down, but really, I’m going to be repeating back, I’ll say, wow, so your daughter she’s had feeling achy and she just doesn’t feel right and, and she’s not eating well and she has a runny nose.

[00:11:16] Delaney: That’s hard. She has a lot of stuff going on. It’s only after that. Then the parent, if I say, you know what, I’m from all my 30 years as a doctor, I can tell we’re actually going to do more harm at this point if we give antibiotics, because all the symptoms align with this being and the epidemiology with this being the viral.

[00:11:36] Delaney: So the point being the parent was heard, so she’s not going to leave the office and be mad that doctor, she just didn’t hear me. She didn’t understand how sick you felt.

[00:11:45] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:11:45] Delaney: validation is The central, central theme because as parents we are indeed so worried and we have a right to be. There’s lots of things to be worried, but what’s most important, we might be right, but are we effective?

[00:12:02] Delaney: And when we use validation, communication skills like that, we become much more effective. So when you mention the book in terms of what are the ways that, things that I make sure to include in the book, I love to talk about the three V’s. One is validate. The next next one is values, and then we’ll get to vulnerable village

[00:12:25] Sandie: Oh, this sounds fun. Values.

[00:12:28] Delaney: values are talking about what are the things that we as individuals in the family value, as well as as a family. I don’t like to say our family values without. Having the kids be thinking about what do they value because I I never want to speak for other people But once it’s been discussed like oh, do we all kind of agree that?

[00:12:52] Delaney: Being kind to people is a value and and then you can have that discussion. And so like yeah, but do we also You know, value, honesty, and so sometimes that might be that we’re not going to, we have to say something to someone that might not be as nice as we want to be. Values as parents is, I need to value, I need to parent with integrity.

[00:13:16] Delaney: That’s a key element. For me as a parent, I have to be science based, I have to look at evidence of things, and I have to do what I really think is the right, right thing. I value. People’s input. And that means you, Tessa, and um, my daughter, I value your input into figuring out how we ensure safety and not excessive screen time.

[00:13:41] Delaney: And, and then, and then, for example, I value, because of science, your guys sleep. And, you know what? This is a non negotiable. We need to have technology out of the bedrooms for sleep time. But here, Sandy, is where some of that validation comes in. Like, but I know that’s hard. I know that you are really, you’re really Empathic.

[00:14:07] Delaney: You would love to be there for your friends at any time. I, I see how it’s uncomfortable when you can’t respond. If you have a friend who’s going through a hard time and might, just, you want to know that they could call someone, could, you could give them my number. Can they call me? And I, and we could talk about maybe I’d go and get you if it’s not bedtime yet.

[00:14:25] Delaney: So it’s working together. And with that values, I say, Tess, I, I need I want your input and there’s some collaboration. I think the devices should go away at nine o’clock. You’re 13, 14. You know, I think that time you should be off by then. She might say, mom, no, that’s too early. 9. 30 or 10, or she might say 10.

[00:14:48] Delaney: And we say, let’s, let’s do 9. 30 and we’ll check in in two weeks. Let’s put this on the refrigerator as a, one of the things we’ll talk about on Tech Talk Tuesdays. So that’s where the values that all of this is. I value Tessa, your incredible creativity. I, that’s why a big part of why we’re limiting screen time because screen time is really And I’m talking about screen time as a treat, there’s a tool and there’s the treat part of it.

[00:15:17] Delaney: And the treat is really a lot of consuming, a lot of chit chat with friends, which is important, but there can be excessive, that can come at a cost. and so I, in terms of that treat time of consuming, I want to make sure, Tessa, you’re using your incredible heart and brain to produce your own life, your own things.

[00:15:40] Delaney: In person relationships with calling grandma, with, talking to, having some time to just, you’re outside and you end up just chatting with the neighbor. You’re doing your own painting. In fact, you can, you, the listeners can’t see

[00:15:54] Sandie: Yeah.

[00:15:54] Delaney: My daughter just left to go back to college and my Christmas present in a card was, Mom, you can, you can have me paint, any painting you want me to do.

[00:16:03] Delaney: And so on my wall there, is this beautiful landscape of Paris with the Eiffel Tower done out of, yeah, that she painted for me. And I got to direct it. I’m like, oh, I’d love to have that a little softer sage green. Can we do that? It was looking a little pink on the sky and still has some pink. So that’s about values.

[00:16:23] Delaney: And then Vulnerable Village is one that luckily I was just talking to Jonathan Haidt yesterday that we’re doing, talking about different collaborations and he has a book, Anxious Generation, and he’s in two of the Screen Readers documentaries.

[00:16:37] Sandie: And he was on your podcast recently. So we’ll put a link to that interview, in the show notes for our conversation today. So, so we’ve got validate, values, and the third V we’re moving into.

[00:16:53] Delaney: it’s, I like to call it Vulnerable Village, so you could say that’s, yes, so Vulnerable Village is something I came up with years ago around this and the reason I bring up Jonathan Haidt is so much of this needs to be done collectively. For example, if we’re going to delay smartphones, if our daughter or son or however they self identify don’t have that device and everyone, very, a lot of their close friends do, they’re in a pickle.

[00:17:21] Delaney: And it’s not to say they still can’t work, it absolutely can. They can use the computers and be able to Text and communicate with friends and whatnot, but better yet ideally as a community of parents we decide hey, let’s all delay smartphones until and And so this collective action concept is really being heightened by Jonathan Haidt who actually is being very Concrete, which he, which in terms of creating new social norms, is to delay giving smartphones until the beginning of high school and actually delay two years longer social media, which would be like the age you start driving if you’re getting the license at 16.

[00:18:06] Delaney: So that the, and he is very, he knows, as all of us know, this has to be done collectively because There’s, if we don’t start now with younger parents of younger kids, it becomes, much harder to do later on. Now, it’s not to say, the point is, even if our kids, and many do, have social media and, and smartphones, and social media, honestly, is now on the computers in all sorts of forms, that we can still do the work that I’m talking about.

[00:18:35] Delaney: We can still very much do helping our kids be safer online and have, and prevent excessive. Screen time. So Vulnerable Village, and I’ll give concrete examples of what I mean, when I was making the first Screenagers movie, my daughter was in seventh grade and many of the kids already back then had a phone.

[00:18:59] Delaney: and I. I was really surprised how nervous I was, but I called the other parents and I said, can we make it a tech free carpool? And you’d, yeah, and you’d think that I like, here I am, I’m pretty outgoing, you know, I wouldn’t be feeling nervous, but I really thought I’m going to be judged as like the overly controlling, the, you know, anxious, worried parent.

[00:19:27] Delaney: Fortunately, the other parents were immediately on board, which is great. I’m not saying that will always happen, but they did. And having the kids get in the car and hearing them talk and just then, and then now and then I could say a little, I got to know them a little bit better. You know, her friends was such a gift because otherwise free time becomes screen time.

[00:19:51] Delaney: It’s that much of a pull and when we have clear loving boundaries, we do so much service and goodness for our kids. It gets a little bit trickier with some of the other things that we ask. For example, my daughter in Screenagers next chapter, which deals with mental health. Problems in the digital age, and most importantly, as all of my films in the book does, focuses on solutions.

[00:20:20] Delaney: So it, that film looks at depression symptoms, all the way to clinical depression, anxiety, stress, how it’s What are some of the factors to think about how this is all playing out in the digital age? And most importantly, each one of the stories has great science slipped into the film and then also really wonderful experts talking about solutions.

[00:20:45] Delaney: Unfortunately, but this is life, my daughter had a lot of clinical depression in high school. And she was so loving, she let me film a little bit of that and, and at the end I said, Tessa, do you want to be in this film? Because you don’t need to be, there’s plenty of stories, there’s plenty of science. And she said, and she watched the rough cut and she said, mom, when I see how much it helps me to hear these other.

[00:21:11] Delaney: Kids talking and saying how things got better. It helps me so much I definitely want to be in the film and she never looked back. She started talking after the film She joined the suicide prevention club in her school and the list goes on But what I’m about to, that, that was, getting a little bit off track, but when she was doing very poorly, she wasn’t able to do the things that she loved to do.

[00:21:35] Delaney: And one is be around kids. She loves, in fact, she loves babysitting and she wasn’t reaching out to anyone and she was just hiding and no one in her room at times. And so I went to, A neighbor who she would babysit for and I said, Christy, I said, Tess is not doing so well. She has depression and she’s just not able to advocate for herself.

[00:21:56] Delaney: Would you be able to? Ask her to babysit and I immediately, I felt kind of bad that I, because I, I go, but I can pay you to pay, give her money. I didn’t mean for them to have to like go out and pay a babysitter, you know? And she’s like, I’m so glad you asked me Delaney. Of course, I would love to. And she did start asking Tessa to babysit more.

[00:22:17] Delaney: And it’s one of the pieces of the puzzle is my work for 20 years in mental health advocacy is not just, Like being able ourselves to talk about, but for all of us to get better at being a vulnerable village of how to reach out to help others or to ask for help as a parent.

[00:22:36] Sandie: so So, this element of mental health, it’s a whole chapter in the book and, and I think this integrated approach to helping parents have conversations with their kids is what I really valued about this. It is science based, but so many of the guides that I’ve. encountered. They’re about, Oh, here are the risks of social media.

[00:23:04] Sandie: Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. This is not probably going to be very effective with, from an adolescent development perspective. So the, the idea specifically in the mental health is helping parents figure out how to have those kinds of conversations. And, It’s like one of the most valuable chapters in the book from my perspective.

[00:23:30] Sandie: But, in those conversations, the, later in the book, you’re halfway through and you get to the contracts and family rules.

[00:23:41] Sandie: Because, you know, it talks about co parenting. Because you can have rules, but then, unfortunately, sometimes they go to Grandma and Grandpa’s house or Auntie’s, and they have different rules.

[00:23:53] Delaney: and that’s perfectly fine. That’s perfectly fine. I think, I’m so glad, Sandy, that you’re bringing up grandparents a lot because I’ve written about grandparents and that they very much have a role in this and they often feel disempowered. Like, okay, if they bring over that iPad, nothing I can say.

[00:24:12] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:24:13] Delaney: Power to the grandparent who takes that time to have some calm conversations with the parents, beforehand and talk about as well as with the young people and, and defining it.

[00:24:25] Delaney: Ultimately, people do better when they know the rules. And better yet, if they can have a say in them, that’s fantastic. Our world is full of rules. Our kids are going into a world Full of this is okay. This is not. Thank goodness. We have understandings of what’s okay, and what’s not. We know Trafficking people is not okay.

[00:24:52] Delaney: We know violence against women and females is absolutely not Okay, we have put lots of safeguards in place. Do things go awry? Do people go against what we know and what we work hard to establish? Yes! That’s why you’re doing all the incredible work that you’re doing. Our kids will do better when they know, and they help to, when they will, create the boundaries.

[00:25:22] Delaney: I like to say that there are. Roughly 33 billion and two fun things to do on a screen so that the biggest issue is it makes perfect sense that they want to be on it and play games with their friends and, and look for, you know, more ways to do cool things and watch this show and watch it again and again and a thousand YouTube shorts.

[00:25:49] Delaney: It makes sense, but it makes perfect sense that we also need to have concrete limits around this. Now, I tend to, I used to say contract, and um, you can see in the film how that came to be the concept of a contract from a woman who went viral having done one with iPhone Janelle. But I often will say a media plan, a family media plan, a, a, Collaborative contract.

[00:26:21] Delaney: So you can use the word contract, but the idea is for, for us, we really had sleep time, family time, and study time. That’s not just, and I’ll say it’s sleep time, as I mentioned, it’s both a combination of devices out of the bedroom for sleep, even through high school, and That is so science based on all the, so many reasons why.

[00:26:45] Delaney: that also has to do with what time devices are put away as they get ready for sleep time. And so families, one of the biggest issues is homework. That the kid will say, Oh, I still have homework. When you have a set boundary, devices are, go away at nine, they know they have to get their work done or they’re going to be showing up at school.

[00:27:05] Delaney: And kids don’t want to fail. They don’t want to not succeed. And you’ve got to help them if they keep not doing their homework because they were putting it off and they said, well, I’m not going to do it because it screens go away. Then like we have a, we have a problem as a family and, and let’s figure this out.

[00:27:18] Delaney: Let’s, why don’t we go to the counselor together or whatever that is. So that’s sleep time. Family time is like, no devices are away. At mealtimes when we go away for a day on a Saturday or Sunday or something, device is left at home. So my daughter, still to this day, she’s just home from college, she will say, I’m gonna leave my phone at home, mom.

[00:27:39] Delaney: You sit and it’s just more relaxing. She likes it. She likes the breaks.you, other fam, there’s other family, we’re playing, we’re watching a movie, we’re not going to double screen for our family night, we’re not going to all be on our screens. And, and then for study time, which is another hard one, that for us, for example, Tessa’s, when she had that, smart phone was out of the room and she could take breaks, but it’s not right by her.

[00:28:08] Delaney: Um, and so I’ve written about all of that in the book, all sorts of other concrete ways of doing this, but I want to get back to, um, so that’s an example of why, and what, why having a, Plan and set rules is important. Now. I talk a lot about what what does that mean when rules aren’t followed all the time?

[00:28:31] Delaney: They’re not gonna be followed all the time. So what do you do in those situations? Like that’s where we really need the help and that’s where other chapters look at that but I do want to make sure in our remaining time that we touch on some of the parenting skills around mental health challenges and I want to talk about First and foremost, three points about emotions that we can do, all of us, right now.

[00:28:56] Delaney: Whether there’s mental health problems in the home or not. And I’m going to assume right now, the general big population, putting aside any significant mental health problems, even if they are there, in fact, this still works. And the first is, emotions just happen. And You can, it’s also thoughts just happen, but I am constantly working with my kids and kids that I work with, like, Nope, there, and I’ll bring it up.

[00:29:27] Delaney: Oh, there comes that jealousy thought I just had about someone. Oh, there comes this wave of feeling sad. I wonder what it’s, what I’m feeling it for, and so as parents to model that to say, Oh, I’m having this emotion that comes up and talking to our kids who are saying, I’m feeling. Helping them to think of the name, the feeling that they’re having and say, huh, I wonder where that came from and that we don’t control it because kids feel very self punishing for the emotions and thoughts they have.

[00:30:06] Delaney: They feel really bad about feeling less than. feel really bad about feeling mad at and the problem is that prevents them from doing the number one thing that helps us to get out of stuck hard places which is feeling shame. Lists enough, it’s unwarranted shame is what people are feeling. Having enough self efficacy to say, I need help or this is what’s happening inside of me.

[00:30:38] Delaney: And if I had a dime for every time a patient says to me, I haven’t ever said this to somebody else. I would be a millionaire. So, that ability to help our kids name their emotions, help them understand that emotions and thoughts just come, there’s no judgment to that, and modeling our emotions to our kids, both the ones that are just coming up, we’re not sure what they are, Or, and often, why we’re feeling, what emotions we’re having.

[00:31:13] Delaney: I love in, in Screenagers next chapter, Laura Kastner says, she’s a wonderful expert and written many parenting books, says, how is it that we expect our kids to go to their dads and talk about their jealousy or feeling less than on the sports team when the dad is never talking to them about their emotional internal experiences?

[00:31:39] Sandie: So, my mind is racing now and there is so much more. We have to have another conversation, Dr. Reston. I want our listeners to know that if you’re at Insure Justice, March 7th and 8th, we’re going to be doing the new version of Screenagers. We’re doing a screening and we’re inviting parents. And as we sign off today, can you tell us where to find the resources that we’ve talked about?

[00:32:15] Delaney: So, anyone can go to Screenagersmovie. com. The blog is right there and it has a search bar, so look up anything that you want and you’ll get the blog, but it’ll also bring up podcasts, and so I’ve done multiple podcast episodes on all of these. Again, the whole idea. People can find the trailers to all four of the documentaries and how to bring it to their community.

[00:32:42] Delaney: Because what we have been doing now for eight years and have had millions and millions of people in this country and other countries. come together, kids and adults and in schools and out of schools, seeing the film with all the solutions and then saying, okay, what other solutions can we be doing and how do we implement these things?

[00:33:04] Delaney: Collective community action is where this is all going to get, make things get much better.

[00:33:12] Sandie: I am so grateful and I’m going to leave this conversation thinking about the three V’s, validate, values, and our village. And I look forward to Communicating, um, developing our relationships and working together to end human trafficking. Thank you so much, Dr. Rustin.

[00:33:33] Delaney: Thank you, Sandy. It was a delight.

[00:33:35] Thank you, Dr. Delaney Rustin. I encourage our listeners to check out her book and visit the Screenagers website. We are also inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.

[00:33:54] org. That’s where you can find resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation. And so much more things like the anti human trafficking certificate program here at the global center. And if you haven’t visited that site before, this is a great time to take the first step, become a subscriber, and you’ll receive an email with the show notes.

[00:34:21] When a new episode drops, follow us on Instagram and Facebook. And of course, I’ll I’ll be back in two weeks.