Patrick McDonough joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss his groundbreaking $40 million jury verdict against a hotel for enabling child sex trafficking and how this landmark case is changing accountability standards across the hospitality industry.

Patrick J. McDonough is a nationally recognized attorney and advocate who leads the Sex Trafficking Division at Andersen, Tate & Carr. With a legal career marked by justice-driven leadership and deep community engagement, Pat has dedicated his life to representing survivors of sex trafficking and fighting systemic injustice. Before joining Andersen, Tate & Carr, Pat made history as the youngest District Attorney in the state of Georgia, where he pioneered the development of child advocacy centers, providing trauma-informed care and legal support to child victims of sexual abuse. In his legal practice, Pat has built a comprehensive, survivor-centered approach to litigation, assembling a national network of professionals to support clients from first contact through final judgment. His efforts have earned widespread recognition, being featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Sports Illustrated, Forbes, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Outside the courtroom, Pat has raised over $1 million to support unhoused individuals and founded HomeFirst Gwinnett and the Gwinnett Reentry Intervention Program (GRIP).

[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today I’m joined by attorney Patrick McDonough, partner at Anderson, Tate and Carr, and he leads their sex trafficking division.

[00:00:35] Pat just won a $40 million jury verdict that sending shockwaves through the hotel industry. His 16-year-old client had been trafficked over 200 times in just 40 days while staff sold her condoms and ignored obvious signs. This case changes the rules for every hotel in America and reveals red flags that could be happening in your own community. And now here’s our interview.

[00:01:13] Sandie Morgan: Patrick McDonough, I am thrilled to have you on the ending Human Trafficking Podcast. Welcome.

[00:01:20] Patrick McDonough: Thank you so much. I’m, I’m thrilled to be here.

[00:01:23] Sandie Morgan: I was so excited when I saw the headline that there was a $40 million judgment in a trafficking case. Tell me how you ended up in the courtroom where you were able to achieve that kind of result for a victim of human trafficking.

[00:01:50] Patrick McDonough: Well, I met our survivor, probably five years ago, so it’s been a long journey, on a road to getting into trial, and I’ve probably settled a little north of 80 cases, and typically when you get really close to trial, that’s when they finally decide that they’re going to provide some type of compensation and you often are able to, to resolve the case.

[00:02:13] But for whatever reason, this, hotel and kind of insurance company decided that they wanted to take us to task and, and, and really never offered anything that we would’ve even considered. So it gave us a great opportunity. There wasn’t a hard decision to make, like, you know, should we take the money or should we go to trial?

[00:02:30] So we were able to just really go forward and try the case. And really, the most profound thing for me, I’ve been doing these cases now for six years, is, you know, we believe how to prove these cases and we believe our survivors and, and we believe we know how to prove the case. And, and obviously we’ve convinced a number of people to settle, but it, it’s really meaningful when we were able to talk to the jurors after the case, and like all the things that we had kind of believed over these years, they, they validated, and in fact, the defense attorneys would ask questions and things I think that they might’ve even believed.

[00:03:04] They, you know, they, they did not believe, the jury didn’t believe. So it was very, very validating.

[00:03:09] Sandie Morgan: Give me a couple of examples of, of what the jurors believed.

[00:03:15] Patrick McDonough: So one of the big, kind of themes on the defense approach is they try to make it like a legal class, and they try to argue that one of the elements in this federal lawsuit is what they call participation in a venture. And so they would try to explain that as well to have. The trafficker participate in a venture with the hotel.

[00:03:33] They almost make it sound like it has to be a party to a crime. Like the trafficker walks into the front of the hotel and like says, Hey, I’m gonna be in this back room trafficking somebody. And that’s not really what the law says. The law really says if the hotel knows this is going on or should know this is going on then and they’re taking money on it, they should be held liable or, or responsible.

[00:03:54] But it’s been a constant fight with multiple defense attorneys really throughout the country. And it was just very nice when they, the defense attorney asked the jurors like, you know, what was it that proved participation in a venture? And all the jurors said, you know, it wasn’t one thing, it, it was the whole case.

[00:04:09] It was the three different victims that we put up. It was the two police officers that said they had a bad reputation. It was the expert in how she explained it. So it, it was just one of those things that was very heart heartwarming that the case we put together, you know, the jury really understood it and, and validated it.

[00:04:26] Sandie Morgan: And how many attorneys were on the team with you?

[00:04:31] Patrick McDonough: So three of us tried the case. I had co-counsel, really good co-counsel in this case, uh,David Bouchard and Otto Echo. the three of us tried the case, but there’s other people on my team, John Toge and Rory and, and Jennifer Webster that have, helped throughout different parts of the process. But it was three of us that tried it.

[00:04:52] Sandie Morgan: And in the news article that I read, it talked about one victim who was identified with initials who had been trafficked there at age 16, but you just mentioned three victims that testified.

[00:05:09] Patrick McDonough: That’s right. And so this case was about one victim and she, it was one victim against the hotel. But one of the most powerful things that we have been able to do successfully is we have other victims that maybe they had different cases. So these two other people that tell, well, lemme take that back. One person had a different case ’cause her trafficking was worse at a different hotel.

[00:05:31] But she still was willing to come testify because she had been at this hotel. So even though she didn’t sue it, she’s a witness, she was another victim. There was another victim that you might not consider classically trafficking, and I’m not sure we would’ve been able to get it across the finish line by herself, but she, she was trafficked.

[00:05:49] In fact, had to, had to see, basically a trafficker made her have a date in a car so they would get the room. She didn’t see anybody else after that. But it, it tied into our theme because J.G our victim had to also see multiple or dates in the cars and not just in the rooms, which again, is a bigger indicator that hotels should have known what was going on and it corroborated what they said.

[00:06:11] So having multiple victims testify, even if they’re not plaintiffs, can really support your case. And, and that’s been kind of a, something we’ve done from the beginning. I tried a case last year in federal court for three weeks and we had 11 victims in that case, against Red Roof in it settled the day before it went to the jury, so we didn’t get it all the way to verdict, but it’s a very powerful tool when you’re trying cases.

[00:06:35] Sandie Morgan: So you, won 10 million in damages, compensatory damages, and 30 million in punitive damages. Will you break that down for our listeners to understand why it’s broken up like that?

[00:06:52] Patrick McDonough: Sure. The first part is really the entire case is all about compensating the victim. So what is the value of someone who’s been essentially statutory, raped and sold 200 times at a hotel? Because a hotel is, profiting off that and what, what would make her whole, like what are things that they can do financially to compensate her for all the trauma that she has experienced and will experience for a lifetime?

[00:07:17] And so that was the $10 million verdict, if you get a compensatory verdict at that point, you go to a second phase. And the second phase is a punitive damages phase. And punitive damages are more about punishing the hotel. And one of the things that’s so powerful about punitive damages and really

[00:07:37] kind of means so much to us in the trenches is it’s not just punishing this hotel. It’s not just saying you’re getting punished because of what you did, but it is saying we’re sending a message to the industry. So if you’re in the hospitality industry, be aware that if you turn a blind eye to this type of conduct, you could be punished and that, and it ratchets up the money.

[00:07:58] So it’s a second. It’s a second type of damage.

[00:08:01] Sandie Morgan: Okay, so over 200 times in a 40 day period at the same property. Is that correct?

[00:08:23]Patrick McDonough: That’s right.

[00:08:24] Sandie Morgan: Okay. So you presented testimony that the motel staff ignored clear red flags.

[00:08:25] Patrick McDonough: Well, let, let me answer this in, in two parts because a lot of times people think, oh, I need to take this class in sex trafficking and I need to really understand this to ever be able to spot it. And like the hotels will often say things like, well, I might’ve seen adult prostitution, but you know, I’ve never, I would never put up with or see sex trafficking.

[00:08:43] And so one of the things I tell people, and what we hope people learn or even take through your podcasts and that are trained is. If you’re a business at this, in this case a hotel, but any business and you see what you think might be prostitution, ’cause most people say they can identify that fairly easily.

[00:09:02] High foot traffic man going in and out of a room every 20, 30 minutes, right? Maybe a, a young woman or, or an older woman that is scantily clad. Like those two signs alone is enough. We believe for you to call law enforcement and then let them do the investigation, you don’t have to do anymore. Now in hotels, they have kind of an additional thing when they send cleaning people in and there happens to be 10 to 15 used condoms every day, and there’s a young person staying there with doesn’t appear to be apparent.

[00:09:29] You know, that’s even more corroboration. So there there’s a number of things that can put people onto that sex trafficking could be going on. The other fundamental I think a lot of people don’t understand is if you’re under 18 years old and you’re engaged in commercial sex. The buyer, in fact, is a sex trafficker.

[00:09:47] So you don’t even have to have a pimp or a scary guy around the corner. And so we try to let people know if they’re training hotels or businesses. You don’t have to be an expert. You don’t have to check off 10 different things. If you see something that looks like prostitution, call police and the police, they might set up a sting.

[00:10:04] They might do more surveillance. They might go knock on the door. But that’s ultimately how you slow this down because here’s what traffickers don’t want. They do not want to go to a hotel where they get arrested. Their property, which is the children they’re selling get arrested or their buyers get arrested.

[00:10:19] And if they go to a property where someone’s calling the police every time they suspect, even prostitution, they’re not gonna go there. So, so I would just say in general common sense, if you see something that looks like, you don’t even have to figure out if it’s sex trafficking. She might be 17, she might be 19, might be sex trafficking, might be prostitution.

[00:10:37] Just do the right thing and call law enforcement. so that’s generally what we like to talk about. In this case in particular, I mean, as I said, a hundred of the 200 date, I’m calling them dates, but dates that she had to see, were done in cars, much more visible to, a hotel that had cameras and they allegedly had security that were walking the property.

[00:10:57] I mean, they certainly should have seen that. You know, there’s high foot traffic coming in and out. In this particular case, there was testimony about a night. a night front desk person that actually would call the traffickers and warn them if the police were on the property. So there was a, you know, there was multiple layers of, of what they knew or should have known.

[00:11:15] Sandie Morgan: Well, and in one of the articles that I read about this case, there were condoms sold to the minor and by motel staff. Explain that.

[00:11:28] Patrick McDonough: This is a perfect example of, like they, they should know. So one of the victims that I mentioned, she ended up seeing one date, she didn’t have a case, but she had to see that one date in that car to get the room for everybody else. She testified that her and another girl, and they had a picture of them in the hotel, very scarcely clad.

[00:11:47] Look, I think she was even younger She might’ve been 15. But anyway, young girls walking up to the front desk multiple times and buying condoms, and they’re just selling ’em to these girls, these young children. I mean, that, that should clearly be a red flag, right? That’s not, something that, that should happen without there being some follow up.

[00:12:06] Sandie Morgan: Yeah. I usually just go ask for extra soap or something. Yeah, I didn’t even think about, that kind of availability. So, so the evidence really clearly demonstrated that the staff ignored those red flags. Then how did the defense, respond to that?

[00:12:33] Patrick McDonough: Well, here’s, and I wanna caveat this, there are a ton of wonderful hotel operators that do the right thing. So this is not, you know, a blanket all hotels are terrible. Our economy hotels are terrible. There’s quite a many wonderful people, but here’s the, every case I’ve ever had, they bring the manager in that typically either lives at the hotel or is there full-time.

[00:12:54] They have cameras. There’s kind of no question they know what’s going on, but they just deny it. They just flat out say, never saw it. Dunno what you’re talking about. never seen prostitution, never seen sex trafficking, not on my watch. And so they, again, it just, you know, becomes a a he said, and then it’s not just a, she said, that’s why we build the case.

[00:13:12] Right. What our victim said, what the two other victims said, how our expert testifies what police officers would come in and say that this is a hot spot. but they just deny it. Basically. The two things they do, they start, or three, they start with denying it from the hotel standpoint. Then the lawyers try to

[00:13:30] get the jury to think that the standard is much higher. They try to make it sound like you have to have a criminal conspiracy, which you do not. And, and they just say, sh you know, she might have been sex trafficked and I feel sad for her, but you know, we don’t know about it. How would we know about it?

[00:13:44] It’s not our fault. And then the next thing they do is they try to blame. If you’re gonna blame anybody, just put it all on the trafficker. Or they sometimes, in this case, they weren’t as bad. This defense attorney was actually quite, I thought, good to our victim. But I’ve had other defense attorneys where they just, you know, they just victim blame, you know, it’s your fault.

[00:14:02] You wanted this, why didn’t you leave? you were at other hotels. Why are you picking on us? So it’s just always, it’s like a little kid getting caught this, handing the cookie jars just everybody else’s fault. You know, they’re just making stuff up.

[00:14:13] Sandie Morgan: So you just mentioned the victim and the, we talked about the damages paid. When will that money be available to the victim? I’ve been in this. For a long time, and I think I’ve won. We’ve got restitution ordered and then I find out that the survivor is still waiting. What’s the likelihood of that?

[00:14:42] Patrick McDonough: And so, so that is, so here’s the pros and the cons of, of a trial, right? The, the pros are you have an opportunity to really get what is just. And I think this, this verdict was just, and it’s obviously, sends a message. The downside to a trial is they always appeal it. Right? And so, you know, there’s gonna be an appeal.

[00:15:01] There’s also, in a case like this, there’s insurance involved and insurance is always trying to get out. So there’s separate appeals on the insurance trying to get out of the case. So there’s no guarantee. I mean, it could be they decide that they’re very nervous and they want to try to settle between that number and, and you know, that could happen in a month or this could drag on for years, that’s the one real risk of going to trial.

[00:15:25] And, and just as an example, I had that trial. I’m gonna get my dates wrong, but I wanna say the 21st of July, or maybe it was two weeks, it doesn’t matter. Whatever week we had that trial, it went for an entire week. I had another trial, not that Monday, but the following Monday, and it was separate trial and we felt really good about it.

[00:15:43] As good as this case, if not better, but they settled for $6 million and they said it wasn’t confidential and she’s gonna get her money in 30 days. You know, so it was less than 40 obviously, but it was, she felt like it was enough for her to raise her child. She wants to start a nonprofit. She’s gonna be able to give back in her own community.

[00:16:02] And so that’s kind of always the rub on trying a case, right? Is, is the money they’re offering upfront enough that it’s a burden in the hand? I’m absolutely getting paid. Verse, “Hey, I’m gonna go to trial and you’re gonna hear my story. But there’s a risk, right?” So there’s still risk that we, you don’t see a penny of it, quite frankly.

[00:16:19] I think we will. I think we tried a great case, but there’s always risks.

[00:16:23] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Okay. So let’s talk about your personal vision for legal reform and making a difference. I went online, I looked you up. You are very involved in your community. Talk about how that motivation came to be and how it informs how you serve as an attorney.

[00:16:53] Patrick McDonough: I think everybody really wants to give back in their community and I, I think mine started even earlier than the community I’m in now. I mean, I got outta law school and I was an assistant district attorney and then a district attorney, and one of the big things as a district attorney, we did is we created child advocacy centers because abused kids were always getting re-interviewed all these times and they didn’t have a safe place to go.

[00:17:14] This is a long time ago. They have a lot of those now, but it was kind of new back in the day. and so I think there’s just, you know, some pride in being able to work, but also besides work to be able to, to make a difference. when I came up to, you know, I’m in the suburbs of Atlanta and Gwinnett County.

[00:17:31] I was fortunate to join a law firm that really cared about community, and that’s one of the things that we kind of instill in our lawyers. And I was involved in United Way and some of the things that we did in United Way, I think they taught me. A lot about how we can do wraparound services. I got real involved kind of in the homeless population and it was, you know, not enough to just get someone off the street.

[00:17:51] It was like, how do we help make that person a, a productive person? And so that could be mental health, it could be drug treatment, it could be stable housing, you know, a lot of different things, job training. and so I think that kind of led into this practice, is, you know, kind of led me in to be able to do something that I cared about and was also my day job.

[00:18:09] I really feel blessed that I get to do both.

[00:18:11] Sandie Morgan: Oh yeah. I, I have that same feeling. I get to do prevention. My background early is pediatric nursing and being able to work with kids like we do here in Orange County is a big part of my passion, and I think more and more, and we’ve had conversations on this podcast about how people take, what drives them, what motivates them, and brings that to the table.

[00:18:46] In the anti-human trafficking movement, we are a movement that spans globally. And we need, I saw on your case, as I studied it, that you really had a multidisciplinary team, at the table for this case to support this survivor, to support your case, to teach the jury. And I think I want people to walk away from this and, after listening, to see that there is a place for everybody to do something.

[00:19:21] And you brought up United Way here in Orange County. We work a lot with United Way. So all of the nonprofits and the philanthropists, the social workers, the teachers, everybody has an opportunity to be part of this. Another group that has, An opportunity to be part of this are our policy makers and legislators. And I noticed in reading about you and this case that the TVPRA was a big part of the foundation of this. Can you talk about how that legislation contributed to the success of the case?

[00:20:15] Patrick McDonough: Yeah, there’s no question. I mean that this was  a TVPRA case that was passed in 2008 and, and it has a, the beauty behind that statute is it has a 10 year statute of limitations and if you are a child that is trafficked, so anyone under 18, they have 10 years. Until they, after 18, so basically until they’re 28.

[00:20:35] And, from the legal side, what, what we see often is, you know, when someone gets rescued, the, the first thing they’re not thinking of is, oh, I need to call a lawyer. You know, if you’re in a car accident, you might decide, “Hey, I need to have a lawyer, right?” Or if you have a surgery and something goes wrong.

[00:20:51] People think about that, but certainly people that are trafficked don’t think like, Hey, one of my first things in trauma is I should call a lawyer about this hotel is it takes years, right? For them to kind of put their life back together where that would even register. And a lot of laws, the statute of limitations are just gone before they even realize they have a claim.

[00:21:11] I mean, it’s, it’s fairly new what we’re doing. I mean, a lot of lawyers don’t even know this is the case. It’s, it’s, it’s getting a little more attention with this verdict. And last year we had a pretty big case. but you know, we’ve been doing this for years and I meet lawyers all the time that don’t know about it.

[00:21:23] So certainly a lot of the survivors don’t. But anyway, the TVPRA has been the fundamental. Building block of all of our cases. And it has been a tremendous asset for us. It’s been great. It, it’s not perfect and different circuits view it and interpret it differently. Our 11th circuit where we are is a little more conservative than probably where you are at California.

[00:21:44] So it’s not perfect. I think it will end up at the Supreme Court one day and we’ll get more guidance from them. But it certainly allowed us to do things like we did with this, with this verdict. It’s tremendous.

[00:21:54] Sandie Morgan: Okay. That’s really helpful. And you mentioned California where we are and I, I went back and looked at a podcast we did quite a while ago for listeners, it’s number 187.

[00:22:02]  And our city attorney in Los Angeles on and Rena actually, uh.had a civil case where they based, this on California’s nuisance abatement laws. And the, the focus much like yours is very victim centered and how we support restitution.

[00:22:35] And so the, it was, very interesting for me to compare those cases because both approaches, targeted complicity and failure to act. So the hotel involved in the Southern California case, where these kinds of cases were repeat hotspots for trafficking and the city intervened to force changes and to close those circumstances.

[00:23:10] And a nuisance abatement loss seems a little vague and unrelated, but whatever brings attention, because this is what I picked up from listening to you just now, hotel staff and the community need to understand the red flags and it may show up. As a red flag that, wow, look at all the cars in and outta here.

[00:23:39] This little hotel is right by my neighborhood, and that kind of traffic is, something I’m not happy with. I’m calling the police about it, so how do we educate our community Pat to understand when they see the red flags and how to call and report that if the hotel staff isn’t going to do that.

[00:24:04] Patrick McDonough: I mean, again, I sometimes it’s one of those cliches. But I say kind of it takes a village, right? Like, I’m proud, I have my little spot where we get to do these lawsuits and help survivors. But education is a huge part of this, right? And so there are really good organizations that do that. They’ll go into the schools, you know, into the medical community, train, law enforcement, anybody who’s willing to listen it, it’s definitely worthwhile.

[00:24:28] Just take your example. the hotel that, that we sued, there was probably a hundred maybe. I dunno. I, I have different hotels. I’ll say that there’s often 50 to 200 cars coming in and out that aren’t staying there. And what they’ll often tell you is there are these budget hotels off of an interstate, but you’re seeing like Jaguars and BMWs coming in and out, right?

[00:24:49] So if someone cares about that and they, and they see that and they call law enforcement, it may not be enough for law enforcement to make an arrest, but they can say, okay, we need to do surveillance and then they can surveil that, right? Or they could go interview the, the hotel owner. The people that are best empowered to do this are obviously the people that work at the hotel ’cause they live there or they work there full time and they see it.

[00:25:12] But if they’re not gonna do it, certainly getting law enforcement to try to do more things, you know, do more drive-throughs, to get local community to be educated. All of those things are great. And if you have someone who’s great is what you’re talking about in, in Los Angeles, you know civil law, I can only sue someone when a client contacts me and says I was trafficked there.

[00:25:32] law enforcement and district attorneys and other agencies can sometimes just target a hotel. ‘Cause they say, that’s so bad. That is a nuisance. Right? And they, they can do that. We can only target where our clients take us. So it it, it really takes, like I said, it takes a village, it takes everybody, but everybody can, can certainly, do their part.

[00:25:51] Sandie Morgan: So Pat, what kind of advice do you have for the hospitality industry as these kinds of cases are becoming more routine? You mentioned your case and then the next one that settled for 6 million a week later. What’s your advice?

[00:26:12] Patrick McDonough: Well, the hotels, what they need to know is if they’re gonna turn a blind eye, they can be held accountable. And I, and I’m hoping that that message is now getting across it is not really hard what they need to do. All they need to do is train their staff, right? Fairly easy. I mean, these brands certainly can set things up in their portals and they can do basic training and this is what you look for.

[00:26:34] And when you do that, you should notify, law enforcement. And again, the training’s not that difficult, but ultimately what it always comes from the top I’ve, I’ve talked to multiple front desk people and they say, “Hey, I’m working at this hotel”, and they tell me, I don’t care what it is. It could be a drug dealer or sex trafficker.

[00:26:51] Just rent the rooms, make the money. Same person making $12 an hour, goes down the road and works for a different hotel. And they say, if you see anything, you let me know immediately. And call law enforcement. So they just really have to make sure they want to do the right thing, that they aren’t trying to profit off this.

[00:27:08] Because it’s really not that hard to clean up. I mean, all you gotta do is really open your eyes, look at the cameras, occasionally walk around a bit,  50 men coming in and out, you know, in a couple hours. Cars coming that aren’t staying there at some point. It, it becomes obvious, right? So they just really wanting to do the right thing.

[00:27:24] But as far as like practical steps, I think training is the most important thing. They just to make sure that all their people, the cleaning staff, the maintenance people, the front desk people are all trained and empowered to do the right thing.

[00:27:38] Sandie Morgan: Wow. I love that. “Empowered to do the right thing” and it is top down Pat.

[00:27:45] I am really excited about the work that you’re doing there. I think the impact is going to be phenomenal as more and more we see more, cases and from my perspective, working with victims, that restitution is life changing and it validates the community’s value for an individual and their life that has been totally disrupted.

[00:28:17] So thank you so much for your time.

[00:28:20] I’m grateful for your leadership and your passion, and we will look for more success in the coming years. Thanks so much, Pat.

[00:28:31] Patrick McDonough: All right. Thanks so much.

[00:28:32] Sandie Morgan: Thanks to Patrick McDonough for sharing his groundbreaking case in changing Survivor Justice. His key insight really stuck with me. Hotels can’t hide behind, “we didn’t know”, when signs are obvious. Simple staff training can prevent trafficking hotspots. Watch for a future episode on how that is already happening.

[00:28:59] What gives me hope is Pat’s reminder. It truly takes a village whether you’re spotting unusual traffic patterns, supporting stronger laws like the TVPRA, or empowering hotel staff to do the right thing. Everyone has a role in prevention. Listeners, if you love this conversation, make sure you check out our website @endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:29:34] If you’d love to help us grow the podcast, you can start just by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back.

Debbie Deem joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss how transnational fraud predators are stealing billions from older adults and the intersection between financial crimes and human trafficking.

Debbie Deem is a retired FBI victim specialist with over 40 years of experience serving crime victims. She’s currently an elder justice victim advocate, specializing in transnational fraud crimes and she serves as co-facilitator for the National Adult Protective Services Association Fraud Forum. She helped start the Victim Assistance Programs at the US Attorney’s Office in both San Francisco and Los Angeles, where in the early to mid-1990s she discovered what we now call human trafficking victims and was assisting those victims while also working with financial crime victims. After moving to the FBI in 2003, she began focusing on older victims of lottery, sweepstakes, and romance frauds, gravitating toward the most underserved victims throughout her career.

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today’s guest represents a powerful intersection of federal law enforcement expertise and passionate victim advocacy.

[00:00:30] Debbie Deem is a retired FBI victim specialist with over 40 years of experience serving crime victims. She’s currently an elder justice victim advocate, specializing. Transnational fraud crimes and she serves as co-facilitator for the National Adult Protective Services Association Fraud Forum.

[00:01:01] Today we will discover how financial fraud predators are, stealing billions from older adults, 4.9 billion in 2024 alone. And why these crimes mirror the early days of human trafficking recognition. Debbie shares real case studies, including a devastating story of a $380,000 theft, and she reveals practical strategies that families can use to protect their loved ones from becoming targets.

[00:01:37] And now here’s our interview.

[00:01:39] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the ending Human Trafficking Podcast, Debbie Deem.

[00:01:45] Debbie Deem: Thank you very much. Looking forward to it.

[00:01:48] Sandie Morgan: I just love that we are having this conversation. I’ve known you for a couple decades and you’ve been deeply involved in combating human trafficking from the victim side, and today our conversation is going to talk about how transnational scam predators victimize. Our family members and what we can do about that. So I’m excited to have you on our show today, so Debbie, let’s first talk about how your career in the FBI impacted your understanding of victimization.

[00:02:37] Debbie Deem: Sandy, thank you again for having me. And I have to say that actually it was my first work, I was a victim specialist for the FBI, and I’ve been retired. I call myself unleashed for about the last six years, but even before that position, I helped start, The Victim Assistance Programs at the US Attorney’s Office, both in San Francisco and in Los Angeles.

[00:02:58] And it was actually there in their, actually their early to mid 1990s that I discovered both what we now call human trafficking victims, both in sex trafficking, With a domestic as well as an international trafficking, situation and was assisting those. But I also was required under the victim rights law to start notifying victims of all crimes.

[00:03:20] And that included financial crimes and identity theft, when we had cases that were going forward. So when I first became aware, it was actually both groups of victims that had been. Very underserved. Again, not even names for those crimes at that time. But I was obligated to find services that didn’t exist.

[00:03:39] I was obligated to inform them about their rights in the criminal justice system. Um, in some cases, with the traffic victims, they didn’t even speak english. So again, the variety of things, that I found in both situations actually started in the early to mid 1990s. And then when I moved to the FBI, in 2003, I was asked by agents to start visiting victims who, older victims who had been often contacted by phone and just the beginning days of the internet, because they had been defrauded.

[00:04:11] I, I try to use the word defrauded versus scammed. Because it just seems like it, it focuses more on the seriousness of the crime rather than putting any kind of blame on the victim, which oftentimes the word scam does. So what happened is that I was visiting, older victims of lottery or sweepstakes frauds, or the early romance frauds, and I’m seeing so many of these.

[00:04:33] Yet there was no one I could call or contact for help unless identity theft was involved because we did have the Identity Theft Resource Center at that time, and there was just nothing out there for these folks. And in my career, I’ve always gravitated towards the most underserved victims, whoever that was and kind of put my focus on that.

[00:04:51] then once people start addressing it, I move on to something else. And I was able to do that with human trafficking.

[00:04:58] Have a whole bunch of folks came and recognized that crime and great changes happened. So I moved on kind of to these financial fraud victims, especially older adults.

[00:05:08] And I’m still waiting kind of for the army to show up, but, that’s changing and they are showing up now, which is wonderful to be a part of that pioneering effort, that, you know, happened with human trafficking and I’m hopeful will happen with fraud victims.

[00:05:21] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And I really relate to this idea that you saw victims of crimes we didn’t even have names for.

[00:05:31] I often talk to people about my first victim of child sexual exploitation was a 14-year-old boy. I admitted at 2:00 AM before we had names for that crime. And as you grew into this, your focus on serving the victims really drove how you addressed it. And we will have links in the show notes, but you’ve written extensively on this, there is a lot of resource, to help us understand. And one of the works that you published is the neuroscience behind financial scams. A DOJ elder initiative, and this is really helpful for us to understand the science. Can you talk about what that means?

[00:06:36] Debbie Deem: I think you’re talking more about, it was a, a work that I did with Dr. Landy who was a neuropsychologist and he actually

[00:06:44] it was wonderful to partner with him because I think, again, this is a field where we need neuropsychologists, we need therapists, we need legal people, we need financial advisors, we need advocates, we need all kinds of folks.

[00:06:57] But what I think that kind of medical or a psychological perspective can give is some understanding of the human brain and just, What can happen, that excitement kind of thing that if we’re talking about a romance fraud, that excitement, that, that feeling that people get and when they’re in the throes of a new relationship and how real that can seem, even though, all the red flags are there, that this is not a authentic relationship.

[00:07:23] those things can be real. And a lot of the brain chemistry and things like that are so strong in helping people to. Believe that it’s a real thing and it makes it so difficult for them to stop because of that. so I think the work of neuropsychologists in kind of explaining what is going on with the human brain

[00:07:41] as well as in later issues with those older folks or people with disabilities that may not stop and what is happening to them. We certainly need people in that role that can be doing cognitive assessments. Helping with, issues if there does need to be temporary conservatorships or things like that.

[00:08:00] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Okay. So let’s look at what are some of those lesser known emotional or psychological effects that financial fraud can have on older victims?

[00:08:14] And I’m not using scam language. I’m learning from you, Debbie.

[00:08:20] Debbie Deem: That’s all right.

[00:08:20] Sandie Morgan: Yes. And, we’re gonna help our community move to conversations that maintain the dignity of the victims.

[00:08:30] Debbie Deem: Yeah. And, and let me address that real kind of quickly. for example, before I discuss what those emotional reactions can be and the, the trauma, the trauma reactions. This is actually probably the most common crime happening around the world. Is these kinds of transnational frauds. And I think that that is becoming true more and more as more and more countries are doing a better job at getting reports in and kind of looking at the issues and encouraging those who don’t report to come forward.

[00:09:00] the FBI reported that only on reported crimes, and again, we know most people do not report. What they found was that $4.9 billion was reported by those 60 and older who cared

[00:09:11] Sandie Morgan: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You just said 4.9 billion with a B.

[00:09:19] Debbie Deem: United States in 2024, even though we know most, and those are just the people that put their age in as being age 60 or older. that was up 33% from the year before. an average of $83,000 was stolen on average. The Federal Trade Commission estimated that the money stolen could be much more.

[00:09:40] And what they estimated that, probably, uh, close to $160 billion a year is stolen by everyone in the United States due to these kinds of fraud crimes.

[00:09:50] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:09:52] Debbie Deem: So I wanted to mention that quickly, and perhaps also before we get into the emotional reactions, talking about the words, because much as the words that we used in human trafficking cases and that often implied victim blaming and shaming and, you know, why would she do that?

[00:10:08] Why would she fall for that? Why would she go with that man? all those kinds of things that as activists in the field, we’ve done a pretty good job of helping people understand that these are people that are victimized and they are not responsible for what happened, that they were manipulated into it.

[00:10:25] And we need to do that same kind of, I think, reframing of our language when we’re talking about these crimes because. Oftentimes the reason victims feel ashamed or feel like they’re to blame is because of the language they use. How could you have been duped for that? How could you be so stupid? How are, why are you so greedy?

[00:10:43] Those kind of words can really cut deep. to people going through something like this, and even the words that we used to talk about, the criminals, these are con artists, they’re con men. They’re, fraudsters. There’s, you know, scammers instead of being the fraud predators that we know they are, so again, I think changing that language can be so important.

[00:11:05] And helping to reframe the issue and to see that these are crime victims and these were are crimes that are being committed against them and often being re-victimized in it too. So I kind of wanted to get that in before we go into the reactions, but the normal kind of reactions because it always depends on the kind of.

[00:11:21] Transnational fraud crime that we’re talking about. But it’s, often again that sense of blame and shame, not wanting to report isolating themselves from others. Depression is very, very strong. The sense of distrust and betrayal, in almost every one of these where it’s been kind of a long con or they built trust, in the person that is defrauding them.

[00:11:44] There’s this strong emotional attachment to them. You know, we talk about the trauma bond when we’re talking about victims again in trafficking, that same trauma bond appears and love bombing in the cases of romances kinds of frauds. Those same kind of hooks into people are what these predators are doing to the victims.

[00:12:02] So all these kinds of things, that sense of betrayal when they realize that it wasn’t real. Having to grieve a relationship that doesn’t exist, in everybody else’s eyes, but is so real and authentic to that victims, are some of the common things that we see with people. And, and that sense of being re-victimized, because there’s, what are we doing to fill that hole that, that relationship

[00:12:23] or that sense of intimacy that, that, that that relationship presented for them. Whether it’s that chance to win the publisher’s clearing house, or whether it’s chance to, by investing in this big crypto investment fraud, investment opportunity through crypto, that’s gonna make all their dreams come true.

[00:12:40] Pay for their grandchild’s operation or college, all these things they’re gonna do with that money. when all of that collapses or someone comes along and says they’re gonna help ’em recover their money. They’re, they’re so willing to believe that that’s gonna be possible, that they get, you know, re-victimized.

[00:12:57] Sandie Morgan: So this, this progression of victimization and then revictimization. So let’s start, um, someone who’s gonna help them get their money back. And it’s just the next level in the fraud, right?

[00:13:16] Debbie Deem: And a big part of this is impersonations because, you know, what they might do is impersonate the bank. They might impersonate the FBI or Homeland Security, or Interpol or the United Nations. I’ve had, people say that they’re investigators from all of those, and that they’re going to, or the Federal Trade Commission or whatever agency it is, local police, and they’re gonna help that person recover their funds.

[00:13:39] Sandie Morgan: And so here’s the rest of us telling them this isn’t real. And yet there’s this authority figure telling them it is real and we’re gonna help you and we’re gonna make everything right. And of course, it’s very easy to wanna believe that. Okay, so let’s start step one, I am your victim and this is your first contact with me. How do you begin that conversation to help me understand, that I’m not stupid. I’m not, to blame for this. And what are my resources? What can I do?

[00:14:21] Debbie Deem: Well first, let’s talk about the, the main kinds of these transnational frauds, kind of what’s done first, because what I’m going to respond at might depend on what the crime is.

[00:14:31] And unlike, human trafficking and sexual assaults and all these kind of crimes, they basically follow the same basic scenario

[00:14:38] You know,they can be remote or they can be in real life. It can be someone, you know, it can be a stranger. With these kind of fraud crimes, the opportunities to defraud are limitless. One of the main sayings that we say now is that anybody can be defrauded. You’ll hear anybody can be scammed.

[00:14:56] I see people all the time shaking their head and saying, no, not me. I’m too smart for that. but we know that it can happen to anyone. there’s a New York Times story about a financial crime reporter, in her fifties that had over, I think $50,000 stolen. And at one point she thought she was helping the CIA in a transfer Amazon scam. So, um, again, these, these frauds can happen to anyone.

[00:15:20] What we mostly are seeing now, coming again outta the transnational nature of this, is we’re seeing a lot of the, the romance frauds where someone will impersonate, oftentimes they’ll steal an image from someone. |If it’s for women, oftentimes it’s men in the military, it’s doctors serving time, maybe doing doctors without borders.

[00:15:40] It might be an engineer on an oil rig, of course, which explains why he can’t come and visit. Oftentimes, uh, for both sexes, it’s a celebrity or a social influencer that they might have met. Just by liking something on a fan page.

[00:15:54] For men, oftentimes it’s these social influencers or pictures stolen from only fans or similar kinds of models that appear to be under 30.

[00:16:04] that kind of thing that they get involved in with emotionally. Again, all totally false relationships. It’s oftentimes also crypto investment frauds that might start with a text message. And that text message might be something flirty, even if you’re married and you might respond and say, sorry, you’ve got the wrong number.

[00:16:22] and then that person will respond and say, well, you seem really interesting. You know, if the text message was about golf, it’ll be, do you play golf? If it was about.

[00:16:29] Go get, get the pet washed at 10 o’clock. do you have a dog? so they’ll kind of try to entice you into keeping that conversation going and that leads to that crime that is sometimes called pig butchering, which I think you’ll discuss in the next podcast.

[00:16:43] But that’s where a basically a lot of the Victor, Victor. Done relationship, um, crypto relationship or romance investment frauds begin also lottery and sweepstake frauds. Those are huge right now as well. where people will impersonate mega millions or, publisher’s clearinghouse and tell that person that they’ve won that major lottery or sweepstakes, but they just have to pay taxes or pay for courier fees or insurance, where we know that it’s actually against the law to request money in advance.

[00:17:12] And that, anytime anybody is asking you by text or phone or email, whatever means that they want you to pay that money in advance, hang up the phone, disengage, because again, that’s not real. Tech support that is probably impacting older adults more than any other kind of crime where someone may impersonate.

[00:17:31] Um, maybe you get a buzzer or something, a pop up on your computer screen and it says big issues with your computer, big noises coming on, or maybe you’re looking for some kind of a tech help. Or maybe you get a call from someone that says that they’re Apple or that they’re Microsoft and there’s a problem with your computer.

[00:17:50] Oftentimes then you give remote access on one of those remote access devices. Apps that are on your phone or, and you give access to what’s on your computer to supposedly get it fixed. And instead what that fraud predator is doing is they’re getting access to your bank account, they’re getting access to perhaps other things that you have, on your computer and even taking control of it.

[00:18:12] This has moved into a new kind of fraud because we know that criminals are constantly evolving. It’s a crime that’s called sometimes phantom hacking, or also the term used might be a, a bank, security, imposter fraud, where someone impersonates a bank employee, uh, security person and tells you, they might say, uh, Dr. Sandy, it looks like that your account is being compromised. They may contact you over the phone.

[00:18:38] You know, I’m, I’m Debbie with, with “blank bank” and I’m letting you know that there’s a problem with your bank account. it looks like hackers are into your account. In, in one case, a victim was told there was 72 hackers accessing the information on that they’d find found child pornography on her account and that she needed to get it removed.

[00:18:59] She was told that she could not trust, the local bank because the FBI was investigating and they were in on it. So what she was required to do was to go to three different branches and pull out all of her life savings that she had in these banks and take that money out and put them into a crypto investment, a crypto ATM.

[00:19:17] And by doing that, it was a hundred dollars bills. This was back before the law changed, which I’ll mention in a minute. She put in a hundred dollars bills for two or three hours at a time. Different eight crypto ATM machines, thinking that she was putting the money in a federally reserved account.

[00:19:32] These fraud criminals had sent her emails with fake letters from the FBI fake letters from Social Security. She talked to somebody who was impersonated the FBI on the phone. All of them told her that this was real. She was in danger, her money was in danger, and she needed to take all these steps to protect it.

[00:19:51] She couldn’t tell anyone at all, that this was going on. This went on for a period of two weeks. In this situation, the last payment, she said, I can’t do this anymore. There was $80,000 left of her life savings. These fraud criminals arranged to get a courier. A younger person, definitely under age 18, showed up within two or three hours, no car in sight.

[00:20:14] Picked up the money that she had in a shoebox, wrapped up in foil with the last four digits of her social security number on the top of the box. Picked up that money he had asked for a code scan. The fraud criminals had said, we’ll give you this code, only he will know the code. She got the code from him, gave him the money, walked away, and she was out her $380,000 life savings.

[00:20:36] Now, what happened as a result of that and what often happens in these crimes?

[00:20:40] She contacted the police. The police didn’t even come out to take a report. The police did not come out and check ring doorbells because to me, this is possible human trafficking. If a child’s involved, who knows what’s going on with that, with that youth.

[00:20:54] The police never came out. I made an attempt to reach victim services in that county. No response from them as far as having an advocate come out when the bank was, the, the bank never filed an APS report. this is a standard thing they should have done with her taking out that amount of money.

[00:21:11] Sandie Morgan: what’s an a APS?

[00:21:13] Debbie Deem: Adult Protective Services and in the state of California and in most states, these are reportable crimes and banks are what they call mandated reporters. I think in 49 states where they are mandated to report any kind of fraud or exploitation involving a senior or somebody with serious disabilities to adult protective services, it’s almost like Child Protective Services, but they do the same kind of investigations and hopefully services and, and information.

[00:21:40] For someone victimized in this or any kind of exploitation, fraud, they did not even file that report. And to top it off, you know, the banks of course did, did nothing. And Adult Protective Services, when they did come out, just checked to make sure she had food in a refrigerator. And basically asked, you know, well, do you have enough money to live on?

[00:22:02] So this is, and I I mentioned this case because it’s so typical of the experience that these victims go through, there is no reporting of it there was no one telling her that she should also have reported. To a, a national database such as the Internet Crime Complaint Center or the Federal Trade Commission.

[00:22:19] We can talk about that later, so this is just that I use that example because it’s such a good one about the failure of our system responses no matter what the crime is.

[00:22:29] Sandie Morgan: Okay, so let me go back and ask for a little clarification. First of all, what is a crypto ATM?

[00:22:38] Debbie Deem: Crypto ATM, and I’m glad you mentioned that. they’re found all over the United States now, actually worldwide, and you probably can walk by, 10 of them within a two mile radius of your home and not even know they’re there. They’re often in like little delis or gas stations or smoke shops or uh, liquor stores.

[00:22:57] And you might walk right by them thinking that it’s just a regular ATM. But what it is, it’s, it’s actually a fraud machine because I’ve heard people, experts say that there’s really. No real reason to be using one of those unless it’s for fraud. So states are now involved in an effort to limit at least the amount that’s done.

[00:23:14] Some countries are, have actually banned them, but they’re often, it’s, what it means is you can put the money into that crypto. And it goes into some kind of a crypto exchange, where that criminal, that can, can then, or that person receiving it if it’s for honest reasons, although I don’t know what that would be.

[00:23:32] But that person receiving it then can take that money and it makes it very difficult to trace. And I think Erin will probably go into more details on that. But what happened in California? Luckily is back in 2023, our state legislator changed our laws so that these crypto ATMs now can only, are only authorized to allow up to $1,000 a day per machine.

[00:23:56] Sandie Morgan: Okay,

[00:23:57] Debbie Deem: So that has limited what happened to the woman I just described happened in like November of 2023. If that was later, she would’ve been limited to only 1000 rather than the 300,000 that she put in over a period of time.

[00:24:11] but other states have not done that yet, so as a result of passing that law,

[00:24:14] Because the law of unattended consequences in California, once the criminals realized that, money could not go through the crypto ATMs, they did two things. Number one, they got in touch with gangs and other people to be couriers to come out and pick up the money. In cash or in gold bars or one of these kind of ways, and there’s actually internet crime complaint center, FBI warnings that this is a common means now that’s being used or these moves to move to things like QR codes or justCash app and some of these peer-to-peer kind of payments involving crypto to bypass those ATMs.

[00:24:44] So the criminals are always evolving onto the next stage. When we put in protections, they’ll move on and find some new way using technology to, to defraud.

[00:24:59] Sandie Morgan: oh my goodness, this is so scary. Okay, so let me go back. This is a great case study and the fact that this is 2025, that was 2023, that is not that long ago. And to understand how far behind we are in the having protocols and prevention strategies laid out, this is significant. So four. A victim that is contacted through a text message, through a dm, a direct message on their social media, what can we say to people about how to prevent that from happening? Your, let’s say your great aunt Isabel. Is lonely and you go see her once a month, telling her not to engage with strangers is kind of like saying that to your 14-year-old who thinks I can take care of myself? Is this the same, basic scenario that we’re dealing with, with keeping our kids safe?

[00:26:17] Debbie Deem: It is. And, uh, before I, I wanna preface that, that first though, because we said these are, these frauds can impact anyone of any age. so they, the, these criminals would target the fraud depending on that age. So if you were one of those very young adults,  or so maybe someone in their twenties, you’re gonna target them with, with job scams, you’re gonna target them with things like crimes leading to sextortion with the images of, the romantic interest.

[00:26:42] It’s gonna be like, products that you can buy online that aren’t real with the older adults. It’s the kind of crimes that I described and, and what we have to try to get those folks to do is, again, not to respond to, any phone call that they get. the FTC said that the fraud phone was still used in like 72% of frauds up until a, a couple years ago.

[00:27:04] So again, it’s not picking up that phone. Unless those people are in your contacts and it’s helping to train people to do that, but it’s also getting the apps, through Verizon or whatever the service carrier is that can do scam warnings and let people know that that’s a potential scam and people will be much more likely not to take that call if it says scam likely.

[00:27:24] So helping them to hook up with that kind of technology that can help with those things. I think also for any age, I think it might be, if I was talking to my great aunt, I might say, “gee, great Aunt Sarah, I had one of these strange messages, and it was about a toll road telling me that I had a fine, that I had to pay. Well, I don’t even have toll roads around where I live. You know, I, I read about these kinds of frauds and I think that’s what happening”, or “I got this strange message saying that my FedEx package hadn’t arrived yet, and I had to hit a link” on and personalize it that way from their own experience so that they’re sharing that information, but it’s not seen as a warning or a lecture on what not to do or that kind of thing.

[00:28:07] It’s more sharing of information in a kind and general way and saying, “Aunt Sarah, you know, let me know if this ever happens to you two. I wanna know, I’m trying to tell everybody I know about this” and I think Aunt Sarah will be much more likely to listen if she not feels she’s not being lectured at or treated differently because she’s older and may not be.

[00:28:25] as responsible or understanding of that fraud that’s happening. so I think that would be one suggestion that I would have. doing things like freezing credit, we always mention, you know, freezing your credit, if I had an Aunt Sarah and I was her only living relative, I would try to be a trusted contact.

[00:28:42] that’s something we’ve encouraged. Um, many states are following up with that. And what that means is that on any retirement account. Or any banking account, I would ask Aunt Sarah to make me her trusted contact. Even if she wasn’t ready to give me something like power of attorney, trusted contact would mean that the bank could be authorized to contact me.

[00:29:03] If Aunt Sarah starts doing anything like this poor woman did that was taking all of her money out at one or two days over a short period of time, that’s out of the ordinary of her normal pattern. and that way I could be contacted. I don’t have access to what’s in her account but it would allow the banks to contact me without that threat of being sued by Aunt Sarah.

[00:29:23] If they did try to reach out to me, knowing that I might be that Aunt Sarah might be in danger. And we encourage this for all family members to try to do. I try to get trusted contacts on anybody because something could happen at any age. So it’s always good to have someone that you could call real quickly.

[00:29:39] I have another situation of a woman, multimillion dollars stolen on a similar kind of crime. These are called phantom hacking, or again, the bank security impersonation fraud. In her case, it started as a tech support where there was a problem with her computer. It led to the same kind of issues. Over a period of, a couple months, she ended up believing she was working again with the FBI and other agencies.

[00:30:03] Took out life savings, took out all of her money to, so in these, to the so-called protected accounts, picked up by couriers, she purchased gold bars. All of this money went. And it wasn’t until her son was notified on one final account where he was listed as a trusted contact, and it finally gave that retirement account the ability to check in with her and say, “Hey mom, what’s going on?”

[00:30:28] And she of course, confessed everything that she had been involved with. But that was, several million dollars too late. And this is a woman in her seventies that now has to go back to work.

[00:30:39] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:30:39] Debbie Deem: So these are the stories we’re seeing. Um, we’re seeing suicides, people that are, suicide ideation. I’ve known of three people just in my county. Are actually, homeless that have one is sleeping in a park right now. Another was living in his car, for a long, long time until he got into a shelter. So again, the impact of these crimes are horrific. People end up having to go to bankruptcy. Tax issues we did not mention, but that’s had this, I call these crimes, the crimes that keep taking because there can be tax issues if you took that money out.

[00:31:12] let’s say Sandy’s a been involved in one of these frauds. You take your money out of your, your, retirement accounts because you think this great crypto investment is gonna lead to all these great things happening, or you’re taking that money out to help your one true love so that he can come and live with you and he just needs money to help with his business.

[00:31:31] Take that money out and the IRS as well as, many states will tell you that you owe taxes on that money, and that’s money stolen, but you’re still having to be re-victimized by having to pay taxes on that stolen money. that’s not right. There’s been efforts in Congress to get that law changed, hasn’t happened yet there’s so many issues like that. Um, people trying to report things on, on things like social media where you report a fraudulent site and it doesn’t get taken down.

[00:32:00] Again, we’re in the beginning stages, right where human trafficking was in the early 2000’s

[00:32:04] Sandie Morgan: 20 years ago. That’s right. Yeah. Okay. So I expected our conversation today to be like taking the lid off my trash can and you kind of telling me what’s in this.But I feel more like we just dove into a dumpster. First, and there is so much more to explore

[00:32:23] And for listeners, in a coming episode, we’re going to be talking about the intersection with human trafficking where fraud stirs. are actually being trafficked to man, those phones and those computers in those direct messages, those texts, those phone calls.

[00:32:48] But we’re gonna save that for another episode, Debbie. Tell me what the best resource is for family members that wanna know how to protect their family, particularly those with any kind of issues of that are psychological that might make them more vulnerable, age related. What’s your favorite resource?

[00:33:21] Debbie Deem: Well, first I, I would hope everybody would you know, get the victim or help, help them, report it to the local police, as well as to the Internet Crime Complaint center @www.ic3.gov .

[00:33:34] And that’s run by the FBI. It’s a, a national, think of it as a library of complaints. So it doesn’t mean that anyone is gonna act on it.

[00:33:42] They get about 2,500 complaints a day. But it’s a library of complaints so that all of those complaints are seen by any sworn law enforcement officer in the United States, whether it’s a detective, whether it’s a postal inspector, an FBI agent. All different places that might be looking for leads on the same case.

[00:34:00] So reporting is is really critical. As soon as you can get the victim to do that, help them save their documentation and all that so that they can do that. But for resources, there are now, and these have only been here for a short time, there’s support groups, there’s national as well as local support groups that are establishing all the time.

[00:34:19] There’s four national ones and actually I can share those with you to put on.

[00:34:23] You’re resource information for people, one of those is fightcybercrime.org. They have great resources online that covers almost any situation of any kind of internet fraud, as well as action plans, what to do, and following up and a 10 week support group for victims.

[00:34:41] AARP has a wonderful one for a victim of any kind of fraud.As well as family members.

[00:34:44] Give an Hour is another one, and there’s a program out of New York, that is doing similar kind of things. So those support groups may be very important, but I think if I had only one resource, it would probably be the National Elder Fraud Hotline.

[00:34:57] And it’s actually sponsored by Congress and it’s run by the US Department of Justice. And it’s probably the single place that I would, encourage people to go to because they will actually help people file reports. They have advocates online that will help them through the whole process.

[00:35:13] So that would be my one source, that I would probably send people to.

[00:35:16] Sandie Morgan: Debbie Deem we are going to keep this conversation going. Thank you so much for your passion, your advocacy, and sharing your knowledge with us today.

[00:35:29] Debbie Deem: Thank you.

[00:35:29] Thanks to Debbie deem for sharing her decades of expertise and helping us understand how transnational fraud crimes are devastating families across America.

[00:35:42] If you have aging relatives, consider having that conversation about becoming their trusted contact on financial accounts. It’s one concrete step you can take today. if you loved this conversation, make sure you check out our website@endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:36:11] If you’d love to help us grow the podcast, you can start just by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks. ​

Matthew Soerens joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the intersection of immigration policy and human trafficking, exploring how vulnerable immigration status increases the risk of exploitation and trafficking.

Matthew Soerens is vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis.

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 350. I am Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we help you study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:29] Today we are joined by Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a. Biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis.

[00:01:06] Sandie Morgan: I’m really happy to Welcome back to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief.

[00:01:19] Welcome back, Matthew. So glad

[00:01:20] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, so glad to be with you again, Sandie

[00:01:22] Sandie Morgan: we have a lot to talk about. First of all, tell us,briefly, what does world relief do,

[00:01:30] Matthew Soerens: World Relief is a global Christian humanitarian organization that,has existed for about 80 years. Our mission is to boldly engage the world’s greatest crises in partnership with the church. And, and right now as we look at. Crises around the world, we see displacement people being forced to flee from their homes and from their countries.

[00:01:48] In many cases, as really near the top of the list of global crises. It’s also a global crisis, of course, that intersects in many situations with challenges of human trafficking. So this is an issue we carry a great deal about both in the United States and around the world.

[00:02:03] Sandie Morgan: All right. And from the perspective of human trafficking, this is the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. There are several elements in our discussion today that we wanna clarify. First is the difference between smuggling and trafficking. Can you do that in 25 words?

[00:02:25] Matthew Soerens: Sure. I think so. I mean, trafficking under US law is when people are made to work under forced fraud or coercion, whether it’s sex trafficking or labor trafficking. Smuggling is when someone is brought across the border against the law. Now those things can be related. People who are smuggled could also be being trafficked, but they’re not the same thing.

[00:02:43] And I think the risk of. Conflating those terms is that we think of trafficking sometimes as something that happens at the border when actually trafficking can happen anywhere in the world, and it can happen to immigrants and sometimes they’re uniquely vulnerable. But it also can happen to American citizens.

[00:02:58] It can happen within a country. It can happen with people who are outside of their country. And I do think that distinction sometimes gets conflated in some of the political dialogue in some unhelpful ways.

[00:03:07] Sandie Morgan: All right. And,that’s really helpful for our listeners who live along the borders here in the US and beyond. I was in Madrid, in May, in Greece in February, and this issue of smuggling and trafficking being conflated is a. Constant challenge to overcome. Now, you mentioned the issues of fraud and coercion, and people in migrant status often have driving forces that increase their vulnerability. So can you talk about what that looks like right now from a global crisis perspective?

[00:03:52] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, I think one of the reasons we see that people who are migrant or refugees or asylum seekers, these various legal, statuses for people who have fled their homes. Are vulnerable to human trafficking is precisely that they are in a different cultural setting where they don’t know the rules, they don’t know their rights under the law, or what the laws are.

[00:04:11] In some cases, and depending on what their legal status in terms of migration is, that can create further reasons that they’re suspicious of law enforcement. So they may feel like they can’t report if they’re being forced or coerced. Into a work situation where they’re not being paid or they’re being paid less than they should or even into situations of, sexual trafficking.

[00:04:33] And so we often find that,immigrants of various kinds are uniquely vulnerable to situations of human trafficking. And the less legal protections that they have, wherever they happen to be, the more vulnerable they are, the less likely they are to speak up, to know that they can go and ask for help when they’re being mistreated and, and exploited.

[00:04:52] Sandie Morgan: I quit counting a long time ago. How many frontline service professionals like yourself have told me? Victims didn’t even know they were victims. They often felt like they made a poor decision. but because of their desperation, the risk element, we misunderstand that I am measuring risk. By sitting in my air conditioned home with two cars in the driveway. somebody else is measuring risk by, I don’t know how I’m going to feed my children or where we are going to sleep tonight. So,

[00:05:33] Matthew Soerens: And if I make you know, the wrong decision, do I end up in an even more vulnerable situation back in a country where I was being persecuted or where someone was out to get me? And those are the, the stresses that weigh on people in some cases as they assess what their options are.

[00:05:51] Sandie Morgan: Absolutely. Okay, so right now in the US we are reevaluating a lot of our immigration policies, and some of it has had unintended consequence. And so one of the things that happened just last week. Is from my state in California. Six of our Republican legislators wrote a letter to ask that we be a little more concerned about how we. Implementing some of those policies and I’ll put a link to the letter in our show notes. But Matthew, do you want to give us some background and your perspective on what this means moving forward?

[00:06:46] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, I was encouraged to see this letter. I think it’s responding to something that we’ve said at World Relief, which is we actually really want our federal government to have a little bit of discernment between. Making sure that our government is doing its job and protecting the American population by removing people with due process and fair treatment.

[00:07:03] But people who have been convicted of violent crimes, who present the public safety threat,including those who would be committing human trafficking. We want our government to go after those people and prosecute those crimes. And if convicted of course, and if they’re eligible to, to deport people who’ve been, who are foreign nationals at this.

[00:07:21] What we’ve seen though is that. As there’s been a big push towards deportations, most of the people who are being detained have not been convicted of violent crimes. In fact, it’s only a very small share of those who are detained right now who have been convicted of violent crimes. It’s,a minority who’ve been of those detained, who’ve been convicted of any crime at all.

[00:07:40] And what we’ve seen is a great deal of fear among people who have not been convicted of any crime,but who are concerned about deportation or being detained or separated from their family. And again, that goes to this dynamic of vulnerability that when people feel vulnerable, they don’t wanna talk to the police even when they’re victims of crimes like trafficking.

[00:07:59] and so these,lawmakers there in the state of California. Basically ask the federal government, to use some discernment like yes, to go after those convicted of violent crimes, but not to be so broad in their immigration raids and sweeps that they’re picking up people who have not committed crimes and have not been convicted of crimes.

[00:08:16] And that’s consistent with what we’ve found at world relief most Evangelical Christians want to see as well. We don’t want immigrant communities, we don’t want immigrant churches. To be filled with fear but of course we do want people who have actually, done harm and are a public safety threat to face justice.

[00:08:31] Sandie Morgan: So, one quote from the letter says, the fear is driving vital workers out of critical industries. Taking California’s affordability crisis and making it even worse for our constituents. Matthew, how do we communicate The value that the immigrant labor force brings to us

[00:08:59] Matthew Soerens: I mean, I think in California is sort of a case study of this, but it’s true across the country. The reality is if you eat. You are benefiting from immigrants because immigrants play an enormous role in the agricultural sector in the United States. And again, a lot of that actually comes out of California, but other states as well.

[00:09:16] if you live in a home, there’s a pretty good chance that there are immigrants involved in the construction industry in many parts of the United States. And many of those people have legal status, but frankly, some of them don’t. Some of them came many years ago,overstate of visa or crossed the border unlawfully at a time when that was.

[00:09:31] Fairly easy to do 20, 30 years ago. And what we’ve said at World Relief is we we’re not condoning that violation of an immigration law many years ago, but we also are acknowledging that we have actually benefited from those folks hard work and that many of them are brothers and sisters in Christ.

[00:09:48] And we think that rather than a, a massive sweep that. Removes people after 20, 30 years from the country and separates them from US-born children. Uh, there ought to be a way for them to make things right. You know, whether that’s paying a fine or whatever that legal process would be, that would allow them to get right with the law and then have the confidence to know.

[00:10:06] when they are victims of other kinds of crimes, that they can go to law enforcement, that they’re safe right now. There’s an, there is an incredible amount of fear. It’s having economic impacts, it’s making groceries cost more for everyone when agricultural workers don’t show up to the fields.

[00:10:19] it’s also,having a huge impact on the church. I mean, I had,dinner with friends who told me that their churches actually basically dissolved because it was a small Spanish speaking church and people are afraid to come and no one was showing up because of an atmosphere of fear. Right now in the community where I live.

[00:10:35] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So you mentioned, visa status and for a lot of people we just think, “oh, you have a visa, or you don’t,” and it’s very black and white. But just in a simple search. I found 18 different kinds of visas. Is there a way to package an understanding of the visas temporary green card path, all of those things during this simple podcast, Matthew?

[00:11:10] Matthew Soerens: Um, probably not. It is too complex to do in a simple podcast, but you, I think to even underscore that complexity, it is sort of an alphabet soup. There’s all different letters assigned to visas and there is as at least as many visas as there are letters of the alphabet. You have temporary visas, you have immigrant visas, which are to long-term live in a country.

[00:11:30] You also have temporary protected status, or symptoms as TPS, which is not technically a visa, but it’s under, it is a legal protection that Congress created and that the Department of Homeland Security can grant. And what we’re seeing right now is it can also withdraw. So you know this question of is this person here lawfully or not?

[00:11:48] Might seem like a simple question. When I worked as a legal counselor, some of my job was helping people figure out the answer to that question for their own situation. You know, because they had come in on this visa, they were trying to figure out how do I stay within the terms of this visa. I mean immigration law, this is maybe a helpful example, is similarly complex to tax law.

[00:12:06] And then you have people trying to understand it usually in a foreign language. And so you have people who are doing their best to do everything to comply with the law, who are sometimes not sure if they actually are complying with the law or they always have been complying with the law, and then a policy changes and suddenly they are here out of status.

[00:12:24] They’re unlawfully present literally with the stroke of a pen. Though they didn’t do anything, it’s just a policy change on them. We’ve seen this recently with a lot of Afghans and Haitians and Venezuelans and certain other nationalities who had, a temporary protected status or humanitarian parole protection that has been withdrawn and they went from working lawfully with a valid social security number to now they’re being told they can’t work lawfully and they’re being told to go back to their countries of origin.

[00:12:50] But if your country of origin is Afghanistan. For especially for example, if you came because you served the US military, or you came because you were a Christian, to go back to the Taliban in Afghanistan could be a death sentence.

[00:13:03] Sandie Morgan: Oh my goodness. And if you’re a girl, I mean this is the Global Center for Women and Justice, this is just unthinkable for women.

[00:13:12] Matthew Soerens: Unfortunately, there are few places in the world that’s terrible to be a girl as Afghanistan right now, and that is particularly why our government gave humanitarian parole to certain women and girls to come. But if we, then we as our governments have revoked that status and literally the letters that people have received are very stark.

[00:13:28] They say, “we will find you. If you do not self deport, you will face prosecution fines or deportation back to your country of origin.” And I mean, people are very much living in fear right now who are in that situation. Again, that’s Afghanistan. But it’s also, I mean, the situation in Haiti right now is a country where world relief operates and it’s a very stark,reality on the ground in Haiti.

[00:13:50] I mean, literally you have Haitians who have been told their temporary protective status is being withdrawn, they should self deport or their humanitarian parole has been withdrawn. To self deport would presumably mean book yourself a plane ticket. Well, the FAA tells American Airlines that they cannot fly to the Port of Prince Airport because it is too violent.

[00:14:07] So like this is the level of violence on the ground according to one part of our government. The State Department tells us citizens under no circumstance should travel to Haiti right now. And yet we’re telling literally hundreds of thousands of Hatians who came in lawfully through airports. Sponsored by family members or church groups that they need to return to their countries of or to their country of origin.

[00:14:28] And it’s a really stark situation. And then again, if they stay here outside of the law, they’re afraid of law enforcement in many cases. And that puts them in that vulnerability, where when an employer is not following the law, when they’re subjecting them to a situation that might even rise to the level of labor trafficking, they often feel that they can’t complain about that.

[00:14:49] Sandie Morgan: Which then that ends up being in a space where they become more vulnerable to coercion and having to do things that, under, not more than just simply a threat, but the cloud that they are living in. Other ways that people lose their status. I was on a call recently with, our embassy in Madrid, our students did a study abroad there in May, and so we did a, follow up zoom meeting and I got to meet with quite a few young people who had come here on a J one Visa. And some people had said to me, but what if they come and they stay? And if somebody overstays that visa, then that does put them out of status. And there are problems with that, but those visas are about building relationships that will go on. And our college students, our high school students report having relationships that eventually lead to opportunities for collaboration internationally. How many of your students, well you’re not teaching here, but I am. And my students go and get an international relations masters. They go into foreign affairs. So those experiences develop relationships that are necessary for our future as a nation. There are a lot of visas that are ways people exchange content, information, labor, short term, and I know that it can be complicated, but let’s just look at the categories for a minute.

[00:16:50] The first, there’s a visitor visa.  And people get a visa to come. It’s not easy to get a visa to visit the US.

[00:16:59] Matthew Soerens: Not if you’re coming from what’s not a, a similarly wealthy country, so if you’re from Europe, it probably is easy if you’re from Australia or you know Japan. If you’re from basically anywhere in Africa or most of Latin America or any country where your earnings potential for an hour of work are way more than the United States than they would be in your country of origin.

[00:17:21] The presumption is that, of our government, is that you would overstay your visa for sort of rational economic reasons, and so you’ll be denied that towards Visa most of the time.

[00:17:31] Sandie Morgan: and I already talked about student and exchange visas, but what about the temporary work visa? This really came up in that letter from our California legislators. They want more H two Bs and so on. So what is that category?

[00:17:49] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, so temporary work visas are specific to agriculture, and H twos are often more, other sectors of the economy. the large majority of temporary work visas are either for agriculture or for highly skilled work. So for example, tech visas and then when you. For some folks that is exactly what they want.

[00:18:09] ’cause they want to come for a season, work in the United States, and then go back to their country of origin. I think one of the challenges of our immigration system, and this isn’t new, this is decades, decades old within the laws, that if our Congress hasn’t updated in many decades, is that. When you come to an immigrant visa, meaning a visa to actually come to the United States and live and work permanently, there are basically not a category for immigrant visas that are employer sponsored for those who are not classified as highly skilled.

[00:18:38] So if you are gonna come and do agricultural work, or you’re going to come and work in the back of a restaurant or work in construction. Maybe you could get a family based immigrant visa. Maybe you qualify because you fled persecution as a refugee, a very small number of people might win a lottery that is specific to individuals from certain countries, not Mexico, not some of the countries that send the most immigrants.

[00:18:58] But if you are primarily coming for work, which is actually a major reason that people want to come to the United States and you are gonna work in what’s not classified as a highly skilled role, you’re limited to those temporary work visas. Even those are very limited, and that’s what these law makers are, are speaking to there.

[00:19:14] There’s not enough of them. But then you have the challenge of there’s people who really want an immigrant visa because they want to come in and build their life in the United States, but that’s not available. Some of those people overstay their visas and,join that category of people who have no legal status.

[00:19:29] And again, I’m not condoning that, but I, I think we ought to recognize that a better system would say if we have a long-term labor need in the United States, why wouldn’t we have a process where that person could apply for an immigrant visa to stay lawfully when that is what they want to do and is what their employer wants them to do and, and actually meet the a labor need in the United States as well.

[00:19:49] And when they do that, then they have the same rights as an American citizen in terms of labor law. Whereas if they are dependent upon their employer for that visa, sometimes they are in in some vulnerable situation if the employer doesn’t happen to be scrupulous. And plenty of employers are very scrupulous, but not all of them are.

[00:20:07] Sandie Morgan: But let’s talk about that for just a minute. That, employer who’s not scrupulous, because this is a scenario that is connected to labor trafficking that I have heard over and over again. Where they didn’t file the necessary, meaning the corporation. the employer did not file the necessary extension ’cause they still need the labor.

[00:20:31] Now, the labor is out of status and vulnerable. Coercion becomes a way to underpay overwork, um, put their kids at risk as well. I’ve talked to teenage girls three or four times who were coerced because if you don’t do this, I’m going to report your father.

[00:20:55] Matthew Soerens: That’s right.

[00:20:56] Sandie Morgan: And so the connection to risk for and vulnerability to human trafficking is very real right here in my backyard.

[00:21:05] Matthew Soerens: Absolutely, and, and it is in probably uniquely in a place with a large number of immigrants like Southern California. But this is a dynamic that happens in rural parts of the United States with you wouldn’t realize how many immigrants are there on serving on farms, and meat packing. And again, I don’t want to cast a broad stroke ’cause there’s lots of really good employers who are treating their workers fairly and doing their best with a very dysfunctional system.

[00:21:27] But there are always going to be people who will take advantage of people who are vulnerable. and that is where we see these situations of labor trafficking arise. And it is why among victims of labor trafficking in the United States, there’s a lot of evidence that immigrants are disproportionately victims and in fact, unauthorized immigrants, those who’ve lost their status or who maybe never had status are uniquely, likely, to be victims in that situation.

[00:21:53] Now, some would say, well, the solution to that is likely let’s not have any immigrants. Actually we have a lot of labor needs that immigrants are, can play a key role in. I think the challenge is not that they’re immigrants, it’s that because of their legal vulnerabilities, they are uniquely vulnerable to trafficking.

[00:22:07] If they had the same rights to speak up if they’re being mistreated or exploited, that would largely resolve the challenge. And I think that’s what we’ve always advocated for at world Relief.

[00:22:17] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So we could spend, hours and hours in this space on visas, but. but we understand that. It may at times increase an entire family’s vulnerability to coercion and ultimately to some form of human trafficking. So Matthew, this is depressing and I need something to do about it.

[00:22:47] And I have people who call me and say, what can we do? And I think you have, opportunities for people to understand better, and we don’t even need to be experts on human rights. We just need to recognize the centrality of human dignity and I can do something for my fellow human being.

[00:23:13] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. I so appreciate that, Sandie. ’cause there are policies that are very dysfunctional and we can dwell on those all day and it’s important to be aware of them. We don’t help anyone, by ignoring the realities, but there’s also are ways that we can respond. some of that is at the local relational level, like get to know the immigrants in your community, not with the presumption that they’re all victims of trafficking ’cause they’re not, but when someone is in a hard spot, when you have a relationship where they feel safe to ask you, what can I do? It can be an incredibly important, way to serve. And then some of the challenges are systemic, and that’s the blessing of living in a democratic form of government, is we can speak into how those policies and systems work and to be really clear at world relief.

[00:23:55] We’re not. Partisan organization will never hear us saying, vote for Republicans or vote for Democrats, or, you know, that sort of thing. But we do wanna invite Republicans and Democrats and anyone else, in positions of authority to pursue policies that recognize the dignity of all human beings, um, rooted in that biblical principle, that affirmed the rule of law.

[00:24:16] And, one of the hard realities is that when the rule of law is not functioning well, people become vulnerable, that also affirmed the dignity and the unity of the family. there’s almost no one more vulnerable to human trafficking than a child who’s on their own. And that’s why laws like the Trafficking Victims Protection Act and the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act,rightly. Treat children who are on their own distinctly from other categories of people.

[00:24:3 Recognizing the unique vulnerabilities. And even now, there’s some concerns that I have with some of the legislation that’s passed recently that could undermine, some of those important laws, protections for unaccompanied children.

[00:24:50] But the way we do that is we reach out to our members of Congress, who are US representatives to our senators at the state level as well, to legislators. and we try world relief and we work with partners, through the evangelical immigration table to. Point people to resources to make it very easy to advocate.

[00:25:05] Uh, people can do their own homework on what, policies they wanna support. But,we try to really stay on top of what’s being proposed in Washington and look at these policy proposals from a human dignity perspective. It’s doesn’t start with one party or the other, but starts with the presumption that all people are made in the image of God.

[00:25:21] And, There’s no perfect legislation, but we really think that our country can do better with a particular concern for those who are vulnerable. And, in the scriptures, which are our motivation at world relief, it’s the orphan, the widow, and the foreigner, which happen to be groups of people who today are still vulnerable and vulnerable to some of these dynamics of human trafficking that unfortunately are very real reality in the United States and around the world.

[00:25:41] I mean, when I say that migrants are uniquely vulnerable. I don’t just meet in the United States. I mean, it’s the central American migrant making their way through Mexico trying to find a safe place to be who was often at the most risk without legal protection and we see that in various parts of the world, unfortunately.

[00:25:57]Sandie Morgan:  So how do you suggest that we contribute to changing the conversation?

[00:26:16] Matthew Soerens: You know, one thing that we’re really passionate about at World Relief, I know you’ve got listeners across a lot broad spectrum of backgrounds, but we are really focused on the church and how do we help the church to be a part of responding to these dynamics? And a, a major starting point there is just talking about the realities of people who are vulnerable from a biblical perspective.

[00:26:26] I think I grew up in a wonderful church. I’m really thankful for the church that I grew up in. It taught me to love the Bible, but somehow I spent the first half of my life in church and yet I missed that. The Bible spoke to concerns of immigration, even though the Bible actually has so much to say on that topic.

[00:26:41] But it just somehow, it didn’t seem like a central focus or something that I realized had a connection to my everyday life, and I think that’s a place, you know, in churches. To start with a discipleship process of how do we think about these issues in ways that are rooted in, not in one political party’s perspective or the other ’cause that’s the, the policies matter.

[00:27:02] But if we start with partisanship on one side or the other, we’re, we’re not starting in the right place, but starting with God’s word, which in the very beginning starts with people being made in the image of God. And you know, what we’ve seen over decades at World Relief is that people who are trying to live out their faith.

[00:27:17] And loving their neighbors, they can play such a vital role in being in relationship with people who have been in vulnerable situations and may still be in vulnerable situations. That’s, I think for me, what gives me a lot of hope is I see more and more churches leaning into that conversation and saying, what can we do in the midst of a tense time in our country to actually love our neighbors in practical ways?

[00:27:38] Sandie Morgan: I think I’m going to recommend to some of our small group leaders that they listen to this podcast and not to find answers, but to begin to formulate their own questions and what it looks like in their community. I talk to one of our adjunct professors this week. As the holiday, I live in Santa Ana, which has a very high Hispanic population. Our federal building is less than two miles from my front door where we have National Guard presence that makes holiday times a little different than we’ve had in the past. And one of the concerns that the letter. That we talked about brings up is people being afraid to go out. And so we know they’re not going to work, they’re not getting paid, and now how do they feed their family?

[00:28:38] And so the food bank, other nonprofits, the civil society organization, the churches, they all step up and they have bags of food ready and no one comes. So we change how we do that and we go pick it up and we take it to them right where they are. I want people to start looking, in your neighborhood to find out who is doing this well from the perspective of caring for your neighbor, whether they are foreigners, orphans and widows unaccompanied children.

[00:29:20] I love that you say unaccompanied children instead of minors. They’re not just a number, and they are found in labor trafficking situations, 20 minutes from my house, trimming boneless chicken breasts and things like that. So this is part of our community, not just in wealthy California, but across our nation. Matthew, final remarks from you. What do you want us to remember about this conversation?

[00:29:59] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. You know, I so value this conversation, Sandie, and I think there’s so many people who are appropriately really passionate about combating human trafficking and I think that’s so vital that people of all backgrounds, but especially again, I think the church needs to lead on that. I think sometimes we’ve missed how connected that issue of trafficking is to the vulnerability of immigration.

[00:30:20] And it just doesn’t, it’s incoherent to say I’m passionate about helping people be free from human trafficking, but I hate immigrants. Like, that doesn’t make any sense because so often the people you’re talking about who are victims of human trafficking are immigrants. you know, and again, for a Christian, our faith compels us to love our neighbor.

[00:30:39] And not only the neighbors who have always followed the law perfectly, which would be probably none of us. but, All people who are made in God’s image. And that doesn’t mean that we can’t find better, that there’s not a place for government to do its job as well. We can affirm that. But even in that, to ask our government to treat people humanely, to use discernment as these lawmakers in California are asking that there’s a difference between someone who’s committed a violent crime and someone who’s only illegal offense was they overstayed a visa 40 years ago.

[00:31:04] Uh, we can treat people. Take into account those different circumstances. Maybe a fine is appropriate Foraying a Visa 40 years ago, whereas, you know, detention is appropriate for someone who, who’s a public safety threat.

[00:31:17] Sandie Morgan: So, point is to some resources.

[00:31:22] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. You know, we’ve done a lot at World Relief to really equip everyday citizens, but also churches to think about these issues, in both fact-based ways. And for those of us who are following Jesus in biblically informed ways. So worldrelief.org, we have a whole bunch of resources for pastors, for lay people, and then opportunities to volunteer with refugees and immigrants in various communities around the United States, and to provide financial support to those who are doing this work as well

[00:31:44]  I think is especially important right now at a time when there’s been,a lot less in terms of governmental support,for vulnerable immigrants and to do so around the world as well. Because again, these are not just US dynamics, these are global dynamics.

[00:31:58] Sandie Morgan: I appreciate that so much. I also, because I’ve spent time working with world relief, I recognize and value how it doesn’t matter where someone’s faith tradition is, they get the same kind of support that is appropriate to their faith tradition. And that is an element for all of us to emulate as we recognize human dignity.

[00:32:29] Matthew Soerens: Yes, absolutely. We are Christians. That’s what motivates us at World relief. But we serve people across a broad range of backgrounds. Those who share may share our faith. Those who come from a different religious tradition, and we believe they’re every one of them made an image of God and a neighbor whom we’re called to love.

[00:32:42] Sandie Morgan: We have enjoyed this conversation very much and it won’t be our last, we’ll put a link to the last time we had a conversation a couple years ago and we’ll make sure that we put you on the roster for when we move to YouTube soon. So thank you so much, Matthew.

[00:33:01] Matthew Soerens: Thanks, Sandie. Appreciate all the great work that you all do.

[00:33:04] Sandie Morgan: Thanks.

[00:33:04] Listeners, thank you for joining this important conversation. If you want to hear more from Matthew, be sure to check out the show notes @endinghumantrafficking.org. We’ve included a link to his book as well as his. Previous episode on our podcast. If you haven’t visited our site before, be sure to subscribe.

[00:33:30] That will keep you up to date on all of our episodes. And one more thing, will you help us grow? Join us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And if you know someone who would benefit from today’s conversation, invite them to subscribe and join us in learning how to be part of ending modern day slavery and human trafficking.

[00:33:57] Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

Eleanor Kennelly Gaetan joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the critical need for legislative reform to combat online sexual exploitation, focusing on Section 230 immunity and emerging laws like the Take It Down Act.

Eleanor Kennelly Gaetan is director of public policy at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation in Washington DC. She has been an advocate for stronger laws to fight sexual exploitation and has had a role in passing key anti-trafficking laws like the Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act and SESTA-FOSTA, which changed Section 230 to hold tech platforms more accountable for their role in enabling sex trafficking.

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking right where you are.

[00:00:23] Today, I’m honored to welcome Dr. Eleanor Gaetan to the show. She’s director of. Public policy at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation that’s in Washington DC. She has been an advocate for stronger laws to fight sexual exploitation and has had a role in passing key anti-trafficking laws. Like the Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act and Cesta Fossa, which changed Section 230 to hold tech platforms more accountable for their role in enabling sex trafficking.

[00:01:07] sandie: Eleanor, we have been in the same movement for decades, and it is exciting to see how some of our long held dreams have come to fruition.

[00:01:21] And one of mine has been to have you on this podcast.

[00:01:24] 349-guest: Oh, professor Morgan, thank you so much. It’s really a delight to join the coast. I’m speaking to you from Washington DC I know you’re there in California, and we together embrace all the advocates in between.

[00:01:36] 349-sandie: Well, and for our listeners who have been long time subscribers, my former podcast intern, I Dallas.

[00:01:46] she’s working with Dr. Gataen. So I, it was like full circle, the both coasts, all of us hands held together in this work. It is hard work. It takes dedication and long-term determination. Some people might even say we’re a bit stubborn.

[00:02:09] Dr. Gaetan: Certainly stubborn have to be persistent and stubborn. But the great thing about the field of human trafficking and the, you know, this was only identified as a crime in the year 2000. So let’s recall that, that, that there wasn’t a name for human trafficking. until 22, the year 2000, and the Trafficking Victims Protection Act.

[00:02:27] So it’s a relatively new field and yet the advance, the progress has been as a result of human champions and a few, you know, it’s a small movement that has mountains.

[00:02:42] Sandie: and you were instrumental in passing the first Trafficking Victims Protection Act here in the us. Tell me about that.

[00:02:51] guest: So I worked for U-S-A-I-D in Romania, and Romania was an example of a country where when the. When communism ended in 1989, 1990, people had been trapped in their countries. People were desperate to travel, and they lost a lot of jobs, and so people really needed work and they were seeking work abroad.

[00:03:11] So young women were especially vulnerable to those promises of a babysitting job or a waitressing job, or an elder care job. Around Western Europe and around the world. and so vulnerable to the, the promises of traffickers. So we witnessed in Romania and Moldova entire villages of young women being being lured abroad, and so many of them abused badly in both legal brothels and illegal prostitution around, around the world.

[00:03:39] I mean, the US government was supporting a, a trafficking shelter in Romania and Bucharest that I was helping to manage as a democracy officer. And it was shocking to me that it wasn’t, it wasn’t a, a shelter, it was a detention center. So women were being abused in, say, legal brothels in Germany were arrested, repatriated to their home country.

[00:04:01] There’s 20 years old, they come back with nothing and then they’re put in virtually like a prison cell and told they’re supposed to stay in this shelter, but it’s a detention center. And of course they ran away. So I was witnessing the lack, complete lack of services to help people who had been traumatized at a young age in the sex trade, in the commercial sex trade around the world.

[00:04:23] Sandie: Wow. And I was in Athens, Greece at that time, and we saw the recidivism as the girls that were quote on quote rescued, just came back to us from Romania, from Moldova.I see their faces even as we’re talking right now.

[00:04:38] 349-guest: But to answer your question, it was all those stories from people like you in Greece and me in Bucharest feeding into Washington. So Congress was hearing from both feminist and faith-based organizations about this terrible crime that really takes advantage of the hopes and dreams of youth. I mean boys too, as we know, but mainly women and girls.

[00:05:04] And Congress was hearing that and became a bipartisan effort to exert US leadership to end this crime, define it and end it. But at the beginning, it  as you well know, professor Morgan, it really wasn’t international crime. And yet the US didn’t look at itself and say, to what extent do we have human trafficking, both sex trafficking, labor trafficking happening in our own country?

[00:05:27] That came a little later. with iterations of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, but, but it really was the sources Americans abroad reporting on what they were seeing, what you and I were seeing around the world that caused the, the passage of TVPA.

[00:05:42] 349-sandie: Eventually that led to the ripple effect of similar legislation in dozens of countries and eventually over 150 and our US. community there in Athens, Greece was very much a part of eventually getting the Greek version passed before the Olympics arrived in 2004. And this really brings up how important legislation and policy is in our movement.

[00:06:20] I know a lot of my students, their dream is I’m gonna go and rescue girls. I’m gonna go and start a shelter, things like that. But. The work that William Wilberforce did is a model that I have stuck to in my career of trying to bring together thought leaders and policy implementers. Tell me why policy is critical?

[00:06:54] 349-guest: So we’ve just discussed really a great example in which, in, in human trafficking had to be defined legally before you could create a framework for both preventing the crime and prosecuting the criminals and helping the victims. Until we had that law. We didn’t have a framework of reference in order to both prevent it and help those who suffer from the crime.

[00:07:20] So policy is crucial to, making operational prevention efforts, protection efforts, prosecution efforts. And what has happened though is that with the internet trafficking is a great example. A perversely excellent example of how a crime changes as it moves online. It’s even more devastating today, the way people are groomed online, and then it moves into real life.

[00:07:51] But, but the internet has been, ruinous for many people who’ve fallen into the clutches of predators, and we don’t have sufficient legal response to online trafficking.

[00:08:06] 349-sandie: Well, in my world here, there was great celebration when Congress passed the Take It Down Act and I felt like people sort of set their tools down and said, ah, now we can, we can. We’re done. But that’s not the case, we still have to fight the battle on the new frontline, which is online, on the internet, where some folks, estimate 80% of recruiting happens.

[00:08:43] The stories of Sextortion are heartbreaking and must be addressed. So tell me what else we need to do besides the Take It Down Act

[00:08:58] 349-guest: Wonderful. So the Take It Down. Act was so crucial because it criminalizes for the first time the uploading of non-consensual sexually explicit material, and this was absolutely ruining lives, right? So cases of I’m, I’m friendly with a woman who had no idea that her boyfriend took pictures of them involved in sexual relations.

[00:09:22] She thought it was just happening in one room, and instead he made recordings. She had just turned 18. He posts them on PornHub, and in fact, only years later she gets a call from a high school friend and said, you know, I think you’re on PornHub.

[00:09:40] And she looks at that. She looks, looks it up. And indeed it is from, a, a moment that she thought was private and it’s online.

[00:09:50] It immediately triggered in her so much anxiety and upset. She tried to contact PornHub. There’s no human being you can reach to get material like that down. This is called image-based sexual abuse. And it wasn’t a federal crime until Take it Down Act. So. Now it’s a federal crime and also the the bill, the the legislation requires digital platforms to have a real life help desk.

[00:10:18] Where you can go and say, this is not consensual. Take it down. And the platform is required within 48 hours to take it down. Now this will remind you probably of copyright law, if I post three minutes of Beauty and the Beast on YouTube, it is immediately taken down because copyright law is so embedded in our legal framework in the United States, and you cannot just rip off some Disney film and post it as your own.

[00:10:44] little personal snippet on YouTube, but the same coverage didn’t help individuals who had their images posted on into the public. And of course, this, this friend of mine had that material circulated internationally. It showed up on 45 websites. There’s no way to take it down once it gets really viral and out in the world.

[00:11:05] so Post-traumatic stress disorder is common, losing jobs or relationships, it can be ruinous.

[00:11:15] Eleanor Gaetan: And interviewing, women who’ve suffered image-based sexual abuse really underscores the fact that it feels like an ongoing trauma. So. You can have a trafficking incident.

[00:11:26] It happened to you. You were violated by a predator. You had a horrible experience. It’s in the past and you go through a healing process, but when images are up online, you’re being raped and it’s online and you can’t get it down. You feel? You experience that as ongoing, ongoing sexual assault. So that’s why it’s, it was especially crucial for a utterly bipartisan bill.

[00:11:49] 349-guest: It was introduced a year ago by Senator Ted Cruz in Texas because teenagers who were victims of deep fakes take it down, act all. So includes AI generated deep fakes. So these young, these teens in a high school in Texas had images made of them by another high school, a a male in, in their high school.

[00:12:09] They couldn’t get it down. And they went to Senator Cruz and he was really moved by their personal story. And that’s where, that’s the origin of the, of the bill.

[00:12:19] 349-sandie: Wow. Okay, so what’s the next

[00:12:22] 349-guest: step, right? So that’s criminal, that criminalizes, image-based sexual abuse. But there’s another bill pending called the Defiance Act. And that, it targets the acts of uploaders, but it provides a civil right of action. So victims have a path to justice and can sue, sue those who commit this crime?

[00:12:45] In US law, of course, having a criminal component and a civil component really helped amplify the weight of the law and, and start to, you know, people need to be convinced they really shouldn’t do this. But if you suffer, no consequences, the criminality increases.

[00:13:04] 349-sandie: and for the victim, sending someone to prison does have a sense of justice, but also the element of restitution that is afforded more in our civil approach

[00:13:21] 349-guest: exactly.

[00:13:22] 349-sandie: so significant.

[00:13:24] So tell us about the Defiance Act.

[00:13:27] 349-guest: Well, defiance Act is fascinating because we have, like Senator Durbin from Illinois, a Democrat, very, very, excellent leader in this field. And Senator Graham, a Republican from South Carolina. Again, we’re protecting that bipartisanship on the house side. Uh, representative Ocasio-Cortez is, is the a, a lead sponsor together with.

[00:13:49] Uh, Lauren Lee, representative Lee is a Republican from Florida. This is so important to our movement. You know, party label is irrelevant when this horrible thing happens to you. Image-based sexual abuse or human trafficking, doesn’t matter what your politics are. So we’ve worked really hard on Capitol Hill.

[00:14:09] Um, ZI will only support bills that are. That have both Democrats and Republicans in support. So defiance is, is got that civil piece. So does a, a bill that, Senator Blackburn from Tennessee and Senator Coons from Delaware, uh, propose no fakes act. Now this goes to the problem of the, that the music industry has identified that voice likenesses can be AI generated voice likenesses can.

[00:14:38] Be projected on the internet and people don’t know the difference between, like this, this country singer was testifying, McBride, country, country Music Star testified with Cozzy’s lawyer Kristen Price. And but it also allowsAn individual who suffers from image-based sexual abuse to sue for damages.

[00:15:00] So there are a few approaches, to the image-based sexual abuse problem, but we need, it’s like, think of car safety. We need seat belts, we need airbags. We need speed limits. We need driver’s licenses, all of the above in order to protect people who are riding in cars Well. The internet has been the Wild West.

[00:15:21] There have been no restrictions on the internet. For a, for a policy explanation, I can provide a policy explanation for why the internet is so dangerous, especially to our youth. And so also addressing the fact that the internet is an utterly unregulated market. Now, I personally am a small government person.

[00:15:40] I think we should have a limited government. However, it is fundamental American jurisprudence, this idea of liability. If you harm another person, you should be liable. That is one of the reasons we walk into a Walmart or a, or a Target, and there’s no puddles on any floor. ’cause those, stores are highly aware of liability for if somebody slips and falls in that store, they will be sued.

[00:16:06] And individuals get big settlements right from, from slipping and falling. Right? It’s, it is the job of that store to maintain health and safety for those who walk into it,

[00:16:17] So we don’t have similar jurisprudence on, well, we don’t have correct laws to protect people online that we do to protect people in the bricks and mortar reality of three-dimensional world.

[00:16:31] And that is, is the frontier in which people like me work on policy. That is our most important frontier right now is to protect people online.

[00:16:41] 349-sandie: So, I remember the first time somebody really made me stop and think about this a long, this is a long time ago, Ernie Allen, and he started including me in letters to attorneys general about Section 230.

[00:17:00] So if you’re one of my students and you’re like, what, what? just look up section 230, do a lit review, but let’s get in a capsule. What is section 230 and why is it like a cornerstone in this battle?

[00:17:20] 349-guest: Excellent question. So it’s the section  230 is one provision of a bill called the Communications Decency Act. It was passed in 1996 when the internet was a baby, and Congress wanted to benefit this promising reality of the internet and the worldwide web. And so there had been some cases where, one of the early, like MySpace or an AOL, it, it, it’s a, one of the early manifestations of the internet.

[00:17:50] there was concern that how on earth could the internet company, which is really just a highway for information, how could it be held liable for activities? By those posting. Right. So it’s, it’s almost like saying the highway isn’t responsible for a drunk driver. Because that drunk driver is in a car going down the highway, just using the highway as, as a a, a transit, a method for transportation.

[00:18:16] And with that idea of the internet as a big neutral highway. The CDA, the Communications Decency Act included few provisions, that were like Good Samaritan provisions saying, you know, the, the, the internet service providers, the ISPs could not be held liable for  what, what was being posted and what was happening online, because they aren’t publishers, you know, they’re, they’re just like a highway for information.

[00:18:45] Okay. That bill was actually gutted by the Supreme Court around some First Amendment, questions. But what stood was the provisions known as CDA 230, which said, the internet service providers cannot be held responsible for what is being posted by the content that is being posted online.

[00:19:04] Right? That’s all protected by the First Amendment. But fast forward to today and so many courts interpreted those provisions as providing like a wall of immunity, an entire wall of immunity for these, social media platforms and an internet service providers. So we have a case, lemme give you an example.

[00:19:27] Let’s look at an example. We have a case against Twitter. Now it’s called X, but the case occurred when it was Twitter. Two boys, 13 year olds. They think they’re talking to a 16-year-old, and it’s Snapchat. It’s not a 16-year-old girl. She keeps asking them to do various sexual acts, including acts with each other, and when she wants to meet them, they block her.

[00:19:53] Two years later, so they’re 16. All those images and the boys of course thought it was disappearing. Right. Snap is a, is a platform where people think the, the images disappear. That Predator had made a video of all those separate images and it was child pornography. These were young teens, 13-year-old boys engaged in sexual activity that is by definition, child pornography.

[00:20:18] It was posted on Twitter, it was circulating on Twitter, and thank God somebody called the mom of one of the boys and said, your son is up in his room talking about taking his own life. Because he’s so mortified that these images of him full, fully unclothed are circulated at our high school. Mom intervened.

[00:20:40] She was a nurse intervened and, and, thank God this her son is alive today, but he still suffers the mortification of those images being blasted around the world. The family, excellent family. The mom and dad were both nurses and they shared shifts so that they would always be home for their kids.

[00:20:59] Alert. The police, the police come and say, are you sure you wanna file a report? Your son produced pornography, which is illegal. We could arrest him for producing

[00:21:10] 349-sandie: Mm.

[00:21:10] 349-guest: I mean, what crazy

[00:21:11] 349-sandie: Oh my

[00:21:12] 349-guest:Right? And then the family contacted Twitter and said, take it down. These are young boys. We verify they’re 13 years old in these videos.

[00:21:23] Twitter came back and said. This doesn’t violate our community standards and left the material up. The only reason that video was taken down was because the family’s pastor happened to have a friend who was a DHS, a Department of Homeland Security agent, flashed a badge from DC and, and Twitter took it down, eventually.

[00:21:45] So we have a case, we are with a group of lawyers representing that family. It’s mom is Jane Doe and, and the boy is John Doe. The two boys are, John doe’s. In the filing. So as we’ve entered discovery, we got through in into discovery. The Twitter actually says, we, we don’t care if you call this sex trafficking, because money was made by the advertising, right?

[00:22:07] So Twitter was monetizing those images and making money through the ads. That as people were viewing the material. So our legal argument is you’re monetizing commercial sex, sex sexual material, that’s commercial sex act. And so under the Trafficking Victim’s Protection Act, that’s sex trafficking, Twitter comes back and says, doesn’t even matter.We have the rights under CDA  230.

[00:22:35] That’s not our problem. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s on our websites, but that’s not our problem. CDA two 30 protects us, and, and we don’t have to take it down. We, we don’t need to deal with it even though they. They demonstrated that they knowingly were aware of this material online and they left it up.

[00:22:53] So this is a battleground. We’ve lost this lawsuit, but we hope it goes to the Supreme Court because it’s time for the Supreme Court to really look at this and say, what are you talking about? That’s child pornography, a federal offense. You cannot be facilitating child pornography online. That’s just one example of how, These companies really think they have no responsibility to take down material that is federal criminal material, and they hide behind CDA two 30 to leave it up.

[00:23:26] 349-sandie: So how do we begin at not just the national level, but at the local level to combat this

[00:23:38] to begin initiatives that call for reform. What can everyday people and politicians at school boards, politicians in local government, city state, professors, thought leaders in our universities? What’s our role in, CDA 230.

[00:24:05] 349-guest: So two schools of thought have emerged and California as is so often as a leader, California passed an excellent bill called the Age Appropriate Design Code,

[00:24:17] and it said companies are should be obligated. These products are used by youth, you know, adult used by all kinds of people all day long

[00:24:28]  before a product, a service, a platform is launched, it needs to be tested and we need to verify that it’s age appropriate and we need to make sure that unsafe products aren’t lost.

[00:24:41] So it’s also within the sort of product liability zone of the law. Right. And California, passed the age appropriate design code, which was passed in Vermont. For example, just a few weeks ago, it’s being challenged in court by the, the, the big tech companies. and, and we’ll see where that goes. But that idea is let’s look at these platforms from the product liability standpoint.

[00:25:06] So it sort of sides steps the CDA immunity problem and brings new legal theory to bear in order to force these damn companies to be responsible. They’re unbelievably, there’s like so little accountability, an excellent book,  just finished reading it this week. There’s a book called Careless People.

[00:25:29] It’s written by Sarah Wynn Williams. She was for 10 years, the Global Public policy leader at Facebook, or Meta, you know, meta owns Facebook and Instagram and WhatsApp. And she testified in the Senate, as she says in her book, Careless People that Meta Tracks children so closely. And knows even their negative emotions, they target ads to kids who are suffering, like fear of having being too fat.

[00:25:58] So they’re targeting those kids who fear they’re too fat with material about diets and even dis eating disorder material. It’s terrifyingly irresponsible, and yet they hide behind CDA 230. So the age appropriate design code in California, we’ll see how it goes in the courts, but more states should probably pass the age appropriate design code.

[00:26:25] But also, states are looking at AI. Let’s, what about curbing ai? You know, artificial intelligence is being used. To, to generate deep fakes, pornographic material, using your face, but putting in a different body, and that’s terrible for, for the victim too. So state level legislative action is relevant. meanwhile, we just this week a senate office shared with us a bill that would repeal CDA 230, and we were very excited to see for Democrat senators and for Republican senators both.

[00:27:03] Already committed to introducing that bill. It hasn’t been introduced yet, so I’m not gonna say who the, members were, but high level, important members of the US Senate have said, enough is enough. We must, force these companies to be accountable ’cause they are not policing themselves. So there’s, there is a bill pending in, in, we believe there will be a.

[00:27:24] A bill pending in Congress to repeal CDA 230. I’m gonna mention one thing, that was we were disturbed at in, that came out of the house side. We’ve all heard about the big beautiful bill, the budget reconciliation bill on the house side. It include a very disturbing set of provisions that said no state can regulate AI for 10 years.

[00:27:46] Wait a second. A moratorium on state regulation of AI. Why? Our country is a, is a set of 50 states that have their own, you know, have community standards, have their own laws. Why would states not be able to regulate AI? So protests have been raised from, from Republican and Democrat senators. So we hope it will not succeed on the Senate side and we’ll nip it in the bud.

[00:28:11] But that’s how powerful big tech is in Congress, that they’re able to engineer a really absurd, right, 10 year moratorium, guess what that is? That is giving AI that same kind of immunity that the internet had under CDA 230 we’re, we’re still struggling to try to get away from the utter. Corporate irresponsibility that CDA two 30 gave us, and now we’re facing an attempt to give that to ai.

[00:28:40] sandie: Wow. Okay. So much to think about here. Let’s give some links and suggestions for how people can gain the knowledge and insight to be an articulate, advocate for change in their local community. I am all about pursuing knowledge so that we can show up in these spaces with more than passion, more than anger.

[00:29:14] So give us three examples of resources we can look to.

[00:29:21] 349-guest: So I’ll send you a link to Professor Mary Gra Leary’s testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee in which she really deep dives into CDA 230. It’s an excellent, testimony from earlier this year. That’s superb. There, there have been a number of investigative pieces. The Wall Street Journal has done several investigations that are good reads.

[00:29:45] for example, in 2023, they revealed that social media algorithms connect pedophiles to children. They, they provide pedophiles with more and more links to kids. You know, quite shocking. Or in your introduction, you, you mentioned, so I can send you links to some of the exceptional Wall Street Journal investigations.

[00:30:10] There is a super law center called the Social Media Victims Law Center. They’re featured in a new documentary, it’s called, Can’t Look Away.

[00:30:21] 349-sandie: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:21] 349-guest: this documentary is just extremely well-informed about the, the, CDA  230 immunity problem. And also, the tragedies of families who’ve lost their loved ones because of irresponsibility that the CDA 230 immunity promotes.

[00:30:38] Right now, this Social Media Victims Law Center has over 4,000 families whose, whose children have been harmed or who have lost their kids as a result of responsibility in social media. and, and there the Social Media Victim’s Law Center website is quite informative. So I’ll, I’ll send you that link.

[00:30:58] There have been over 24 Congressional briefings on this subject since 2019. So in the last six years, over 24. Congress is about the best educated on the online harms. We are hoping this Congress 2024. no 2025, 2026, the hundred 19th Congress is the one that will get serious.

[00:31:22] 349-sandie: Okay. I think we will have to have another conversation for sure. And I wanna bring this also to, you mentioned the faith-based community, and I think this discussion belongs in our local

[00:31:43] religious community, the youth leaders, the folks doing parenting classes, how do parents respond? So I’m gonna probably call you and ask you to come back and talk with me about that. All right?

[00:31:58] 349-guest: Absolutely

[00:31:58] Love to, and, and I know that the White House has set up a faith-based office, that is looking at these issues. So hopefully we’ll get some more federal guidance because one thing, and you know, professor Morgan from the human trafficking movement, it’s, it’s, there isn’t enough federal.

[00:32:17] Federal guidance on best practices. You know, there are jurisdictions around the country that are doing some very good work or, or places where, like San Diego has a, a superb district, attorney or who, who has helped engineer like MOUs between police and direct service providers. And it’s very, it’s it like women who are in exploitation or being exploited, being trafficked and getting them into services. There are some jurisdictions that are doing this well, and then there are places that are absolutely, without model. You know, they’re not, they, they, they don’t have a highly functional system for moving victims into services. So I wish we got more tips and tips from the federal government, right? The Department of Justice sees all this happening around the country.

[00:33:03] Well, tell us who’s doing the best job.

[00:33:06] 349-sandie: Those are good questions. I’m gonna start a list of questions and look for guests that will join us to discuss those. Dr. Gataen, I am delighted to have this conversation.

[00:33:24] We’re gonna keep it going, and thank you so much for being part of our podcast today.

[00:33:30] 349-guest: It’s a pleasure. Thank you so much. I hope I can come back on because it’s, it’s so important and you’ve done such remarkable work over the years by combating human trafficking. Thank you for everything you’ve done.

[00:33:43] 349-sandie: Oh, thank you. And we’ll get together maybe in the same space in the spring for Ensure Justice. And I want our listeners to start planning now for March, 2026. Thanks so much.Have a great day.

[00:34:00] 349-guest: Bye-bye.

[00:34:01] Wow, Eleanor, thank you for shedding light surrounding section 230 in the fight against online sexual exploitation.

[00:34:10] Your expertise really helps me understand better how advocacy and legislative reform play vital roles in protecting communities. Listeners, I encourage you to take the next step by visiting our website, @endinghumantrafficking.org to check out our show notes and other episodes. If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss any of the important conversations we’re having.

[00:34:45] We’d also love your help in growing this podcast. You can start by just following us and connecting on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn. And if you know someone who would benefit from today’s episode, invite them to subscribe and join our community. Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

Andrew Kroeger joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how anyone can find their unique role in fighting human trafficking without changing careers, using the metaphor of grabbing a handle on an ancient Greek pithari jar.

Andrew Kroeger is a podcast producer with over a decade of experience and a proud Vanguard alum. Before podcasting, he worked in book publishing as an editor and spent years as a live sound engineer. He’s also passionate about global missions, having spent many summers living in Romania, doing outreach work for the past eight years. Andrew has been the invisible force behind this podcast, editing every episode, managing the website, and ensuring content reaches listeners in over 170 countries. What’s fascinating is how Andrew never set out to work in anti-human trafficking – this opportunity came to him through his existing skills and connections.

[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:24] Today I’m flipping the script and putting our producer Andrew Kroeger in front of the microphone. Andrew is a podcast producer with over a decade of experience. And a proud Vanguard alum. Before podcasting, he worked in book publishing as an editor and spent years as a live sound engineer. He’s also passionate about global missions, having spent many summers living in Romania, doing outreach work for the past eight years.

[00:01:05] Andrew has been the invisible force behind this podcast. He’s been editing every episode, managing our website, and ensuring our content reaches listeners in over a 170 countries. What’s fascinating is how Andrew never set out to work in anti-human trafficking. This opportunity came to him through his existing skills and connections.

[00:01:40] In our conversation, we’ll discuss how he found his handle. Think about the pithari jar, why you don’t need to change careers to make a difference in fighting human trafficking, and we’ll also share some exciting news about the podcast future direction. And now let’s hop to the interview.

[00:02:07] One of our favorite stories on the ending Human Trafficking podcast is the story of the pithari. The pithari is a huge jar, a vessel in the King’s pantry of the palace at On the island of Crete. And I still remember the first time I saw it because I thought. I could stand up inside of that. It was so huge and I learned that it was used to bring olive oil, grain, nuts, whatever, into the pantry.

[00:02:47] Now the pantry was downstairs in the King’s palace and the stairs were rather narrow and very steep, and I wondered how the people could get it down there. This is 3000 years ago, and then it was explained that the handles that I thought were decorative were instrumental. They were baked on from the top.

[00:03:14] Of the jar all the way to the bottom and all the way around. So try to imagine people being able to grab a handle, whether they’re on the top stair or middle or down below, to carry this huge vessel filled with maybe olive oil. You don’t want it to spill, and everyone had to find. Their handle to carry it safely to the bottom,And that is the image I have in my mind when I think about how many people it takes to lead the anti-human trafficking movement. And one of the most important people that you never get to see or meet, and the ending Human Trafficking podcast is our producer. Andrew Kroeger. So I have him today in studio and I am excited to welcome you here.

[00:04:16] How does it feel to be on the other end of the microphone?

[00:04:21] Andrew Kroeger: It feels absolutely wild, and I’ve never been more nervous.

[00:04:24] In my entire life.

[00:04:26] Sandie Morgan: Oh my gosh. So let’s do a little bit of our origin story. And when you joined the team, most of our listeners, remember when Dave Stachowiak was on our Global Center for Women I Justice Board and said, let’s start a podcast.

[00:04:43] And I’m like, what? We started the podcast. We were co-hosts for years, and that was his handle in how to respond to anti-human trafficking. But today you are the producer.

[00:05:01] Andrew Kroeger: I am the producer, so the story actually goes way back, way before this show, and I was actually a student here at Vanguard and a sound engineer here on campus doing live sound for events and every big conference you had on campus.

[00:05:16] I would run the sound for it. So I got to know you guys years and years ago and then somehow I know, stayed in touch doing all sorts of projects and I work with Dave a lot and the, something was changing on the Vanguard website and we were gonna lose all of our episodes, so we thought now’s the time to build our own website.

[00:05:35] And at the time I was building websites for people and salvaged all these episodes that were gonna disappear. And then I ended up producing all of them. That was eight, eight years ago. So the story with us goes way back to running events and doing, you know, stacking chairs in auditoriums, doing all sorts of interesting stuff.

[00:05:53] And I really didn’t know you beyond those few events. So it’s really cool to connect again, like that.

[00:05:59] Sandie Morgan: Vanguard alums are so a part of our story at the Global Center.

[00:06:05] Andrew Kroeger: That is for sure. So tell me a little bit about how you see your role in carrying this issue forward. I think of my role in two ways. First of all, it’s the obvious stuff is the producers.

[00:06:22] So I’m sort of the tech guy behind the scenes and I make sure the websites are still running and episodes are being recorded and put together properly. But also I. My role is maybe not one that Sandie ever feels, but I feel like the a perfect man on the street in an interview where I don’t really know the subject.

[00:06:39] I mean, I’ve been listening to every single episode for eight years, so I do know the subject well now, but when I first started, it was really interesting listening as a non-expert and kind of going along the journey. But now I feel like. I play more of an editorial role where I know as I’m doing an an edit where to move things around and where to make sure we preserve something because it’s an important point and where we are able to cut things down for time and that was something that is a role.

[00:07:08] I wasn’t playing in the beginning. I was just sort of learning and now I think that’s a really cool part of the job we have. We have now.

[00:07:14] Sandie Morgan: So when I think about how you got involved in this and where you are in your life and your career, I’m curious about how you invested so much of your personal passion and compassion for global issues for the marginalized, and somehow I believe that is a key part of why you keep showing up.

[00:07:42] It’s not just because you’re the tech guy. Is that what you called yourself?

[00:07:47] Andrew Kroeger: I don’t know

[00:07:50] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. So I am, I am, like I said, just a tech guy and just, uh, innocent bystander at the beginning, and now I’ve become sort of a content topical expert just by listening.

[00:08:02] But the reason I keep coming back and investing so much of my own energy into this is I think I’ve spent my entire life doing sort of short term mission trips all over the world, but also all across the US and in Mexico. And I think working with all these people across the world has given me the opportunity to see, to see.

[00:08:24] The other person’s perspective in a way that I wouldn’t get just living in Orange County. So for example, in Egypt I went to, I think they call it Garbage city. It’s basically the Cairo

[00:08:33] city dump. And we spent a couple weeks there working with kids and seeing a lot of the human trafficking stuff going on over there.

[00:08:42] And then I also spent many, many years in Romania. I spent a lot of summers there and

[00:08:48] That’s a major hub for trafficking in that part of Eastern Europe. And I was working specifically with gypsies, and that really gave me, I think, an an interesting view that, like I said, I hadn’t had before in Orange County.

[00:09:01] So now coming back here, I found I still apply that sort of that global perspective and that that care and compassion for people that I learned by being alongside them rather than just reading about them or learning about them. And I think that’s what keeps me coming back to this is, you know, there’s a lot of episodes with, Ioana Bauer, who’s from Romania, and we think the most recent one she did maybe was about Ukraine or a couple episodes ago.

[00:09:26] And I’ve got a friend, a close friend who’s a Ukrainian refugee and learning about the trafficking situation there, specifically with Ukrainians, again, brought it. All that right. Closer to my home. ’cause I know somebody who’s lived through that and that’s a really cool, like a cool kind of connection point again, and that’s why I keep coming back to this.

[00:09:45] Sandie Morgan: So when I think about the pithari, which is kind of our theme, we have a huge issue, too big for one person to carry.

[00:09:55] But the impact of The Ending Human Trafficking podcast, it’s turned you into an armchair expert. Is that right? and you get to connect with people literally all over the world, and your personal compassion is energized by those connections, but at the same time, you have an important role. It is significant to have the behind the scenes production of this podcast.

[00:10:33] Tell me how that makes you feel. It’s a pretty heavy lift, and I don’t think people understand what it takes to produce a podcast. And actually I have to interrupt myself here because I’ve, I’m on Instagram, I am on other social media, and it always feels like anybody can do a podcast.

[00:10:58] You just need a phone and do this, and you’re done. And then I listen to podcasts and now. I listen occasionally to our podcast and it is very good to hear the quality and the careful editing that keeps it, most of the time, pretty close to our 30 minute limit, which fits a lot of people’s commutes.

[00:11:28] And so your technical expertise is a handle on that pithari. And what, how do you understand that as, as a mission, as an occupation, as a driving force that values that behind the scene contribution.

[00:11:51]Andrew Kroeger: That’s an interesting question. I think because I, I’ve done all this mission work all across the world and I came home and I’m just kind of settled into a career doing all sorts of projects for all sorts of clients, and I.

[00:12:02] Andrew Kroeger: Had sort of gotten disconnected from the issue because you know, it’s been a long time since I was a student here running sound for events for the global center here, and I was just going about my daily life and then this whole thing kind of plopped into my lap because I had another client I was working with, Dave, the co-host we mentioned earlier.

[00:12:19] I work with him on his show and he called me one day and he said, Hey, we need some help on this show. And I said, okay, whatever. I just thought it was just another random project I’d be doing it. And when it started, that was really all it was. Was just another project. But as time has gone on, like I said, I’ve, I’ve become less of a random listener and more of an expert and so involved in it.

[00:12:41] And I found that all the stuff that I’d done there earlier in my life with traveling and working with all these people perfectly came back and tied into what I’m doing now, where I’m able to help people even though I’m not able to travel anymore, I’m still able. To be a part of that fight against trafficking.

[00:12:58] To me, that was super, super cool.

[00:13:00] So all the background stuff I do. So we talk about editing and yeah, every, every show is edited, some of them better than others, so you don’t know. They’re being edited. And what we try to do here is

[00:13:10] to make sure nothing we edit changes the message or the content in any way. It’s just helping people express their ideas better and so we can meet our time goals, so we can respect your time as a listener.

[00:13:25] And that process. Again, it’s like all the traveling I’ve done that process is also using a skillset set. I spent my entire life developing. I was a book editor for a long time before this, and it’s again, really cool seeing how all that stuff is tying together into this role, the travel with, which gives me the, the, the compassionate ear and the care for these people and just my random skillset.

[00:13:46] So it’s been cool how it’s all tied right back together

[00:13:49] Sandie Morgan: And going back to our image of the pithari, and we’ll have that picture on the webpage if you are trying to imagine it. And this idea that there is a handle, there is a place that your unique skillset. Is just right for you don’t have to carry the whole thing.

[00:14:12] I often talk to nonprofit leaders who feel overwhelmed by the burden, and I think one of the things we have to do better is engage our partners in the community that can find a handle and make the work lighter for everybody.

[00:14:32] Andrew Kroeger: and, and like with me, I didn’t have to find like make a new handle for myself or knock down doors to find a way I could help.

[00:14:39] I’m just going about my daily life and things are just coming to me and I’m recognizing an opportunity as some way that I can help. I didn’t have to change my entire life to do this. And I think a lot of people can be the same way.

[00:14:50] Sandie Morgan: I love that, and I often wish there was a way, now I’ll refer them to this conversation because I have students who come in and they wanna change their major, they wanna change their career.

[00:15:04] “I wanna fight human trafficking. How do I do that?” And that is exactly right. There is one handle that is perfect for you. I don’t need you to change who you are and what you’re good at.

[00:15:21] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. And, and I always thought too, if you want to continue doing like mission work like I was doing, or, or run a nonprofit or something, you have to quit everything you do in your entire life just to do that. And that’s definitely not the case. And it’s probably not even the best approach anyway. ’cause there’s so many other people already doing all this stuff.

[00:15:36] Find a way to partner with them, grab a handle on their pithari jar rather than starting, you know, reinventing the wheel.

[00:15:43] Sandie Morgan: I love that. Okay, so you do the behind the scenes stuff, and I do have to thank you publicly.

[00:15:51] When I meet people, they say, oh, Dr. Morgan, you are so articulate. I never hear. An uh, or an eh. I was like, yeah, thank you, Andrew.

[00:16:04] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah.

[00:16:05] Sandie Morgan: He edits out for time purposes. Of course. Not for my vanity. Is that right?

[00:16:10] Andrew Kroeger: But it’s all shows. Like I said, all shows are being edited and they’re all editing out, that kind of stuff because it doesn’t help help people with understanding. It’s distracting. And it’s really easy to do.

[00:16:20] It’s doesn’t take that long to do now, and I think that that’s a service we’re providing the listeners, but also something that helps the guests feel comfortable coming on the show, knowing, okay, there’s somebody kinda watching out for me as I’m going through this, and I think it helps reduce the stress level a lot for guests too.

[00:16:37] So again, it’s just like one thing I can do, I’m not there in person recording except for today. Obviously this is weird for me, but. My presence is there helping them behind the scenes. And I think that brings a lot of peace to people, and that’s part of the things I love most about what I do.

[00:16:52] Sandie Morgan: Oh, I love it too.

[00:16:54] And I always tell my guests that, don’t worry, Andrew. We’ll fix that. Yeah. So, okay, let’s talk about some of your favorite episodes. What are they and why?

[00:17:08] Andrew Kroeger: I think the, the ones I, I love the most are the ones where Romania comes up ’cause that’s where my heart is and I still want to get back there. I thought I’d end up believing there forever. I love those episodes because those are sort of the ones that tie me back to why I am even doing this in the first place. The love for the people that I’ve seen and you know, after a decade or whatever, things just start to feel distant. You know, you still have friends there, but you don’t talk to ’em very often, if ever.

[00:17:35] And it starts to feel just so foreign and you sort of lose track of it. And you don’t care so much about the people just ’cause you’re not around them. And this has been a really cool way for me to kind of dive back into that world ’cause that was really what made me compassionate person that I am doing that work.

[00:17:50] And I love coming into the office here and seeing all the posters for all the Romanian trips you guys have done.all over Romania, and it’s so cool for me to see that because I’m not, I’m not able to get over there right now.

[00:18:00] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Any other episodes that you found really important? Yeah,

[00:18:05] Andrew Kroeger: the one we did with David Tyre recently about AI was fascinating to me because people are so scared of AI. Because it could do a lot of damage, but also does a lot of good stuff and it’s really cool seeing emerging technology helping us in the fight against human trafficking instead of making things worse for us.

[00:18:25] So the way they’re using AI modeling to track financial records it’s allowed us to do things that we never could have imagined like the speed and the scale that you can find problems and track people down has completely changed, and I think they’re doing amazing work.

[00:18:40] That was super exciting.

[00:18:41] Sandie Morgan: That’s very cool.

[00:18:43] Has anything surprised you about producing the podcast?

[00:18:47] Andrew Kroeger: One thing that’s been interesting for me is years ago when you hear about trafficking and you watch a documentary or, or something about it, and this might be a hot take, but you get really impacted by it.

[00:19:00] ’cause it’s so, it’s so scary and I have been doing this for so long that I’ve heard all these stories and in some way it’s, it’s kept me compassionate, but it’s also sort of numbed me to the harsh realities of this, and I think that’s something a lot of people working in nonprofits.

[00:19:19] Face is it’s, it sort of becomes normalized and you, and you’re not really shocked by anything like you think about it and it saddens you where you’re not shocked by it. And my mom got back from a trip to India. She was doing a mission trip there, and she came back sharing all these videos about like documentaries she was watching about the girls she was working with there and I

[00:19:40] just sort of, it just sort of rolled right off of me and I didn’t think much about it. And it was a really, ’cause because I just, I’ve, I know so much about it now that I’m not shocked like she is. And I think that’s a really cool, wake up call for me and anybody who’s working with nonprofits to, to continually kind of check your compassion level and make sure you’re not just going through it.

[00:20:01] That was a big, surprising takeaway for me. And it’s sort of a, I don’t know, again, a hot take. But being on the show and actively engaging in the way I am is what’s allowed me to continue doing this. Whereas if you were just reading books about it and not really doing anything about it, I think it’d be really easy to become cynical.

[00:20:20] Sandie Morgan: Mm.

[00:20:21] Andrew Kroeger: And, and having, being an active participant and doing good is, is a much, much better approach.

[00:20:26] Sandie Morgan: I love that.

[00:20:28] So you guys listening, I, I need you to know I don’t come up with all the questions. I’ve got interns, staff, and Andrew to help me. And so this next question I did not write, I’m just just getting that out there.

[00:20:44] So here’s the next question, Andrew. What is it like working with Sandie and what should listeners know about her?

[00:20:54] Sandie Morgan: I know, you’re laughing.

[00:20:55] I have to think about this one. One thing that’s related to what I just said about sort of getting numbed to things is Sandie’s like a little fireball of energy for. Fighting trafficking and she knows far, far more than I will ever know, and she never seems to get numb to it. And I think there’s something special about her that that allows her to continue, continue, continue, and never stop.

[00:21:20] And it’s probably exhausting for her, but it’s also cool to see how somebody who is in a position where. It’d be so easy to be completely burnt out and just kind of grinding away and applying for grants and, oh, here’s another one. Another year, oh, we’re doing these numbers, but losing sight of the actual humans behind those numbers, and I think that’s  something Sandie does really cool.

[00:21:41] That’s what I would say.

[00:21:43] Sandie Morgan: Aw, thank you Andrew.

[00:21:46] Andrew Kroeger: so the point, the point was be like, Sandie, don’t be like me.

[00:21:51] Sandie Morgan: No. but it takes, uh, community like you around me to make sure that fire keeps burning. So, and that kind of leads me to the next question.

[00:22:01] What makes the Ending Human Trafficking podcast different?

[00:22:07] Andrew Kroeger: I think our focus on, on hope is a, a key difference. I mean, it, it’s all, we all, we frame everything around education. We’re trying to teach people, but we do everything with kind of a hopeful perspective that a lot of nonprofits in any industry, I think it’s easy to lose that hope.

[00:22:28] Andrew Kroeger: And again, like I keep talking about getting back to that grind and I think that, that this podcast is really, really good about always emphasizing the hope and the progress and the dignity that people have, rather than just talking about numbers and outcomes.

[00:22:44] Sandie Morgan: I agree entirely, and it is certainly one of my goals to make sure that this podcast points people to hope and their role in growing hope.

[00:22:58] They are part of the solution, and as we look at our future and the podcast. This is episode number 348. We started in 2011. and we just keep plugging along. And so if you were able to cast vision for the next. Three years, what would your hopes for the podcast be?

[00:23:32] Well, I’ll tell you what we’re doing in the next few months, which is helping our goal for the next few years is we’re actually switching to video. I don’t know if that’s a big reveal or not. Maybe we’ve talked

[00:22:35] Sandie Morganoh my gosh. No we haven’t. But I’m scared.

[00:23:44] Andrew Kroeger: the cat’s outta the bag now, so we’re switching the video at some point. We’re working on, it’s a work in progress, like all things, and the goal with that is to. To make, make this more accessible to more people. So I think right now a lot of our listeners are professionals working in nonprofits and things like that, and we have lots and lots of guests who are outside of that system, but still fighting trafficking

[00:24:08] And I think that’s one way. Switching to video will help us reach more people like that because they’re not just finding one little audio only show we can get on YouTube. We can get on all the social media platforms and really have compelling content that people can engage with.

[00:24:23] So we’ll get more students listening. We have a lot of students here listening and they’re continually asking for video, video, video. ’cause they wanna share these with their friends. And that’s the best way to do it. So I’m really excited. Switching the video, it’ll allow us to increase, uh, increase, increase the size of the audience is not the goal.

[00:24:41] The goal is impact. So people can find how they can help. And the more people we can reach, the more people we can help them find their, you know, their ju their handle on the pithari. And I think that’s a really cool, cool thing that we’re looking forward to doing in the next few years.

[00:24:55] Sandie Morgan: I absolutely resonate with the responsiveness to the student population because I do see the future of combating human trafficking. We have to hand this off to the next generation of professionals when.

[00:25:14] I came back from Spain and our study abroad, and if you haven’t listened to episode 347, friends, go back and listen. Five students from 19 to 20 and their passion and their. Vision for how they’re going to use their major and join this fight inspires me to keep doing the podcast because the next generation, they’re going to be the ones to end human trafficking.

[00:25:48] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. And that’s exactly it. The next generation is, is everything is video.

[00:25:53] Even podcasts, audio, podcasts are now video. All the shows are switching. It’s because, because that’s where the people are and I think as, as we wanna bring new people into the fold, that’s the way you gotta reach ’em where they are. And if we keep doing what we’re doing with audio only, we’re not gonna be able to reach all those people so they won’t even know how they can fit in.

[00:26:13] To the big picture. This is a way we can do that. And I’m, I’m really excited about video.

[00:26:17] Sandie Morgan: Well, and I’m really grateful to come back to how we started that I have a tech guy who found a handle, to help move this issue forward because I can have all the knowledge. And the understanding around human trafficking, but I gotta have somebody to teach me how to do the recordings and

[00:26:43]  make sure everything is uploaded correctly and you’re so patient, and I know you said nice things about me, but what I want

[00:26:55] Andrew Kroeger: was I called you a ball of fire, which is good or bad,

[00:26:57] Sandie Morgan: ah,

[00:26:58] Andrew Kroeger: depending on the direction it’s heading.

[00:27:01] Sandie Morgan: Well, you are, steadfast and.

[00:27:05] Definitely patient. I, this is not, tech is not my generation’s forte, but I keep recording. I even took portable equipment with me to Spain and produce that amazing episode. Seriously, go back and listen toit.

[00:27:24] Andrew Kroeger: It’s a good one.

[00:27:25] Sandie Morgan: Share it with other students because we want them to see themselves grabbing a handle and we move this issue forward and finish it.

[00:27:38] Andrew Kroeger: the next few years will be huge for us, I think.

[00:27:40] Sandie Morgan: Well, I’m gonna buy more lipstick ’cause I’m gonna be on video. That’s gonna be my big, big takeaway from this transition.

[00:27:48] Andrew, thank you for coming on the podcast, but thank you especially for faithfully making sure that the podcast gets produced and is available to people around the world.

[00:28:04] Andrew Kroeger: You bet. Stay tuned to everybody. Good stuff is coming.

[00:28:07] Thank you, Andrew, for finally stepping in front of the microphone and sharing your insights about finding your handle in the anti-trafficking movement. Your reminder that you don’t need to change your entire life to make a meaningful impact is exactly what so many of our listeners need to hear.

[00:28:30] Sandie Morgan: And yes. Andrew revealed our big news.

[00:28:33] We are transitioning to video. This will help us reach more students and young professionals who are asking for video content so they can share these conversations with their friends and classmates.

[00:28:50] Take the next step. Go over to ending human trafficking dot. Org where you can find show notes for this episode. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. And if you are already part of our community, share this episode with someone who might be wondering how they can get involved.

[00:29:15] There’s a handle on this enormous vessel that’s perfectly shaped for your hands. Find it, grab it, and help us carry this issue forward. I’ll be back in two weeks for another

Dr. Brenda Navarrete and a group of Vanguard University students join Dr. Sandie Morgan as they reflect on their study abroad trip to Spain, where they partnered with Fiat to learn about trauma-informed care, survivor empowerment, and global anti-trafficking efforts.

Dr. Brenda Navarrete is a professor and research associate at Vanguard University and an expert in trauma-informed survivor care. She teaches in the university’s Online Human Trafficking Certificate program. Her knowledge and cultural insight helped shape a meaningful and immersive learning experience for the Vanguard students during their study abroad program.

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference. In the Fight to End human trafficking here at the Global Center for Women in Justice at Vanguard University and wherever you are.

[00:00:22] In this special episode, we’re joined by a passionate group of Vanguard University students, Bella Luzi, Alba, deiz Alvarado. Itel Monroy, Delaney Menninger, and Ariana Johnson. Along with professor and research associate Dr. Brenda Navarrete. They were all on the recent study abroad trip to Madrid, Spain. During this trip, we partnered with Fiat, an amazing nonprofit dedicated to preventing human trafficking and supporting survivors.

[00:01:05] This experience gave our students a firsthand look at the realities of global anti-trafficking efforts, what prevention looks like in real communities, how frontline nonprofits operate, and the importance of collaboration.

[00:01:25] Let’s listen in as they reflect on how this journey shaped their learning, their faith, and their future advocacy.

[00:01:35] Sandie Morgan: I

[00:01:35] have been in Spain for the last 11 days with a Vanguard University Global Center for Women and Justice Study Abroad team. They have been working with the organization called Fiat, here in Madrid, Spain.

[00:01:57] and we have spent several days working in the aftercare home and we have spent time. With the staff and professionals at F. So let’s have a conversation from the student’s perspective about their experience and what they learned. Let’s start with you, Bella, and tell us what did you expect?

[00:02:30] Guests: Hi, my name’s Bella Luzi. I am a, I just finished up my freshman year at Vanguard University. I am majoring in communications and I have a minor in Women in Justice. coming onto this trip, I really didn’t know what to expect. I took Intro to Women in Justice this year, so I got a brief understanding of, the patriarchy and just kind of dipped my toes into, um, women I justice.

[00:02:56]And so, coming onto this trip, I just had, Just open expectations and just was curious to see what I was gonna learn and find out. and I was really pleasantly surprised with, what I, what I ended up acquiring from this trip.

[00:03:10] Sandie Morgan: Let’s go to you, Alba.

[00:03:13] Guests: Hi, my name is Alba Alvarado. I’m a graduated senior and I’m a sociology major with a minor in criminology.

[00:03:21] I didn’t really have an expectation. I was blessed enough to go to Greece last year with Dr. Morgan, and I was trying to see the differences of what we. We’re gonna do and what we did, but I knew we were gonna meet wonderful ladies like Fiona, her daughter, and the women in the safe home. So I was really excited to get to know everybody and learn more from it.

[00:03:47] Sandie Morgan: Thank you.

[00:03:47] Guests: Hello, my name is Roy. I am a freshman. I am majoring in liberal studies with a minor in criminal justice and overall. I think I had an expectation but didn’t at the same time. I tried to make sure like my expectations were low, so then when I got there, I was just amazingly surprised of like everything we were doing, like all of the, presentations and being able to just be with the women and, and see with sort of their daily life looks like.

[00:04:21] Sandie Morgan: Ariana.

[00:04:23] Guests: Hi, my name’s Ariana Johnson. I am going to be a sophomore this year. I am majoring in theology and minoring in women’s justice. I. As along with the other ladies, I didn’t have many expectations for the trip. I am currently an intern at, the Global Center and have learned a lot, and I was just excited to meet these women and make relationships and learn a lot.

[00:04:51] And I am Delaney Menninger. I am a incoming senior at Vanguard who’s studying sociology with a minor in women’s justice. I also have worked for the center for this past year, so I’ve gotten some good information on what human trafficking kind of looks like. I’ve worked a lot on the preventative side of it, but I was really excited to learn more about victim services and kind of see what that looks like to.

[00:05:18] Be in that place of taking care of somebody.

[00:05:21] Sandie Morgan: A major focus of this study abroad was to understand trauma-informed survivor care. Dr. Brenda Navarrete is an expert in that and teaches that in our online human trafficking certificate. And we had two guest lecturers from Fiat that are psychologists that work with victims becoming survivors and going on to be reintegrated in society.

[00:05:57] So I’d like to hear from a student perspective, what were the main things that stood out to you about trauma informed practices? Either from your personal perspective, what you were told, and then what you actually experienced in

[00:06:21] the

[00:06:21] home.

[00:06:23] Guests: So when we were preparing for the trip, we talked a little bit about trauma-informed care, and then our psychologist kind of gave us some more information on that. A really big part of trauma-informed care is making sure that you’re not re-victimizing, people who have been through these experiences, making sure that you’re not.

[00:06:42] Being consistent with asking these questions and prying and trying to get something for your own entertainment or curiosity. And so I think that was something that everybody did a great job of being a person who was there, if that was something they wanted to talk about, but not prying for our own personal gain or for, you know, to fulfill that kind of natural curiosity that we have.

[00:07:04] And then I also think that, just making sure we were, Understanding cultural context where people are coming from being very, just in the know of what they had been through without applying that to everything that they were, and kind of again, revictimizing them into that context.

[00:07:22] One thing, I really saw in the context of the home, that we learned about in the lecture, Was the kind of therapy that F offers, for the women. And one thing that really stood out, stood out to me was, um, the art therapy and how one of the women in the home, verbalized with us that she really feels relaxed when she’s painting.

[00:07:43] and I thought that it was really cool to be able to just see that, in action. And when we did a art project and you could just see like the relaxation coming over the women when they were partaking in something that like, Not only, not only relax them, but that they knew that it was like their thing, their go-to.

[00:08:01] so it’s really important to have those things for these So when they’re feeling stressed and anxious or, just having a hard time that they can go and relieve it in just such a healthy way.

[00:08:11] Sandie Morgan: One of the things that I heard you all talking about at

[00:08:16] one point in the conversations around breakfast and as we were on our way, was this idea of

[00:08:26] omo.

[00:08:27] the, and.

[00:08:29] When you mentioned Delaney about the cultural context, I wonder, Dr. Brenda, if you could describe the culture

[00:08:41] Guests: of,

[00:08:42] Sandie Morgan: o, uh, Comida, and why that was important in a survivor informed context.

[00:08:52] Guests: Yes, of course. So the Spanish word

[00:08:54] acomedida refers to someone who’s helpful and considerate and eager to serve without being asked, and it’s a beautiful and culturally rich term that conveys humility.

[00:09:08] An initiative and a servant heart and and it really represents qualities that are, I think, especially important when entering someone else’s space, like the home of the women that have, have experienced human trafficking in this context. And so I think it was important for us as a group when we enter this home, that we step into a posture of humility.

[00:09:33] not as guests to be served, but as compassionate visitors that are willing to help and that we participate in the daily life. And things like cleaning, after, cleaning up, after meals, offering to help in the kitchen, or simply being attentive to the needs. That arise in that space and building connection through service and demonstrating respect and solidarity, through all the little, just small meaningful actions.

[00:09:59] Yeah. Going off of that, it was really beautiful just to make friendships with these ladies. We got to see beautiful connections formed, and it’s almost as if you forgot. Not necessarily forgot, but their conditioned, but more so just loving on them and just taking care of them. But they also took care of us.

[00:10:19] They taught us. Words in Spanish. And, they showed us different things that they’re passionate about and we just got to empower them and they empowered us.

[00:10:31] So, just like Dr. Brenda said

[00:10:34] is, um, a very. Spanish thing, at least in my culture and my Mexican culture.we have always learned to be flexible and just very caring for one another. I think it is a very important thing. for example, in my experience, I was able to translate for some of the girls who didn’t know much of Spanish.

[00:10:55] Um, just being there and being very flexible and just teaching them or trying to speak with them. Being able to have a conversation with one another, or even if it was just like helping them out washing the dishes. I think I, I fall under that. I’m very flexible in being mm-hmm.

[00:11:13] And one more thing on that. It was really a discipline to learn this acomedida because it wasn’t easy at first and I think we like tried and we really had to learn the culture behind it and how to. Be persistent with offering that help and making it known that we wanted to be a part of that, that it wasn’t a burden on us because we just have love for them and we want to make this action out of love.

[00:11:37] Because I think that first day we were kind of like, oh, do you need help? And the women had been very clear even when they introduced. Does. They never want to admit if they need help and they won’t, especially if there’s guests, especially if there’s somebody they feel maybe they owe something to. They never want to ask for that help.

[00:11:53] But making sure to use that specific language, I want to help, how can I help is so important. And understanding that really. Kind of grew that con cultural context and that relationship with all of us because we got to then have those experiences with them and let them know we wanted to be a part of them.

[00:12:13] Sandie Morgan: I love that when, when we were having breakfast one morning, Dr. Brenda said to us that sometimes when you ask one of the women. Do you want this? They and you, you brought something, an art craft, something we were doing, they say no. it doesn’t actually mean no. And maybe you have to offer it three times before they say Oh, yes.

[00:12:45] So, yeah, I love that. But. Alba.

[00:12:51] Guests: I just wanted to go along with what Delaney was saying, that I was able to see acomedida One of the ladies was like, my house is your house. Like we were able to be. Already a family within knowing each other for a couple days. one example that I felt very much acomedida was in the kitchen.

[00:13:08] I love being in the kitchen. Two of the ladies was showing me like how to make empanadas or just how they make their signature dish or dessert. And what I, as I was shredding chicken, she was like, okay, now it’s your turn to talk. Now it’s your turn to tell a story or your life. While some of us did the dishes or some of us was still cooking and just being able to.

[00:13:30]Feel part of their, like their family felt so nice ’cause we didn’t know them at first. I, for one, was really shy and being able to connect with the food or the culture itself was really beautiful.

[00:13:45] Sandie Morgan: So I observed my students in this space and they came literally with supplies and things to do with the women.

[00:13:55] And then I observed. How that actually looked in real life. can somebody talk about what it felt like when they started offering to do things for you?

[00:14:14] Guests: I for one, with one of the women. She was one of the loveliest there. Out of all of them were very lovely, but she was probably one of my favorites there that day. Um, we had finished, I, I believe it was eating lunch. And I just got very bored and I had a pen, and I’ve always loved to draw on myself. I’ve always loved Hena, and I just looked up a picture and I was just going to do Hena on myself, like with a pen and

[00:14:45]

[00:14:46] Guests: the

[00:14:46] woman there, she decided, she said, oh, would you like me to do it for you?

[00:14:52] And I said, yes. just ’cause, and maybe it was like something fun for her. I asked her if she’d like to draw, I think it was just something simple being able to connect, talk, and have conversations. I think after that they had asked if we wanted Hena.

[00:15:05] Obviously with the permission of you guys, we, we were able to get Hena done and all of the girls. All of us got Hannah, and I think it was just a very good and nice experience just to let them do something they love and let them be just. In their zone being with you, doing something that they want to do.

[00:15:28] And it was good because she would sit with one of us and she would have a separate conversation with each and every one of us. And it was just an amazing, amazing thing.

[00:15:36] Sandie Morgan: And I loved standing behind her and looking at your faces because you were receiving genuinely. And she loved giving to you. I, I don’t know

[00:15:54] Guests: where

[00:15:54] Sandie Morgan: that fits Dr.

[00:15:55] Brenda in trauma informed care, but I just,

[00:16:01] she taught me how important it is for us to understand that receiving is, it’s an a humble act and it’s very fun to give, but

[00:16:16] receiving from someone. Who has had so little,

[00:16:20] That’s a lesson in humility.

[00:16:24] Guests: I’m glad that you brought that experience up because I, I think there are a lot of trauma-informed principles that we can draw from. Even in this experience. I think it’s about leveling out the power dynamics. This is something that is a skill of hers that she’s able to share with you.

[00:16:42] She’s able to use her creativity in that moment and give something to you and you’re able to receive. And I think that that puts her in a position of sharing and giving, and that’s empowering to her. And it creates a space of, of mutuality. Which I think can be very empowering and I saw lots of laughter and sharing and mutuality during that time, which was really fun to watch for both Dr.

[00:17:10] Morgan and I.

[00:17:11] Sandie Morgan: I

[00:17:12] loved the laughter and it, the verse that says, laughter is good medicine. I thought about it at least 10 times a day because you guys brought so much laughter.

[00:17:26] Guests: Going off of, what Ital was kind of talking about.

[00:17:29] Bella Luzi: I had a experience with a few of the women. I speak English and only English, very little, Spanish, and I got to just have some moments with the women where I would be struggling with a word in Spanish and.

[00:17:45] They would literally like look at me in the eyes and not let me move on to the next word until I said it perfectly in Spanish.

[00:17:53] Guests: and I think,

[00:17:54] Bella Luzi: and then that kind of like spiraled into us sitting down for like, like 30 minutes doing Spanish lessons where the, the woman would sit down and teach me sp, teach me Spanish.

[00:18:05] and it was really cool to just see how empowering sh it was for her. To just feel like she’s so good at something and it was something so simple. but yeah, it was just really fun to be able to like, let her, just pour into me. And I honestly think like leaving that home, I was able to take away, like be filled up just so much more than I think, um, I was able to even give, like these women had so much to offer, just with

[00:18:34] who they are. And, like that was enough to just be like, wow, these women are absolutely amazing. and so I just, I just feel like it was a really cool opportunity to have, like, have these women feel empowered.

[00:18:47] Guests: Delaney, you led the Tree of Life Project and I watched as you were able to engage women to take that over and own it for themselves, what were the elements that the women owned.

[00:19:08] Yeah. so the Tree of Life was Dr. Brenda’s idea, and it was something that we wanted to use to, include both art therapy and also empowerment to the women through writing down things that motivate them, things that inspire them on the leaves of the tree.

[00:19:27] And then we used all of the women’s hand prints to make the roots of the tree. And then we had them. Write down things that made them feel rooted, things that they were grounded in, that give them this life that are their beginnings, that are their reasons for continuing this life. and we felt that that was really important for the women to recognize those things, the reasons to keep going, especially when we later had a psychologist come in and talk about how almost.

[00:19:53] A a hundred percent of the women that they’ve worked with have had a suicidal attempt, have had a point in their life where they felt there was nothing to keep them going. to have these women recognize the things that do make life worth living and do root them and ground them, was so important for us, and we wanted them to see that as well.

[00:20:14] And they did amazing. Everything that they came up with, everything that they brought to us was just so beautiful. And also just. Having a physical, Representation of that to look at, to look at, oh, I am strong. Oh, that is the reason I keep going. And that is the quote that means so much to me. Dr.

[00:20:34] Brenda had an experience with one of the women who said that she really needed that, that those words that were said were from God, they were from her faith, and she needed them to keep her going because of the situation that she was in. And so that was just such a. Beautiful moment between them and, really helped me recognize how impactful art can be because, you know, everybody said like, we thought it was a silly little tree.

[00:20:58] We didn’t have such high expectations for it. But now to know that they have that reminder, it definitely makes us feel very glad that we did that and glad that it helped them the way that it did.

[00:21:12] Sandie Morgan: Ari, would you talk about your experience as you were Like an assistant to the women when they started making their vision boards, you were cutting out letters and pictures.

[00:21:27] What was that like?

[00:21:28] Guests: Yeah, I was just about to say that that project, the Vision board project kind of comes off of the tree project. the vision board project was mostly. T cutting out pictures and writing down motivational, quotes and phrases that they felt connected to, and it was a vision board of their dreams and their aspirations and things that just make them, them.

[00:21:54] And. Something that was so beautiful was hearing their vision boards at the end, and they presented it to us and they shared their dreams of either making a spa or you know, going into cosmetology or building their own business or just simply going back to their home country and being with their family.

[00:22:12] And so it was just beautiful and. Honestly made us all kind of be teary-eyed from seeing how much these women have grown and how much these women love, the things that they are passionate about. And it was beautiful to even see their fa, like their families on these vision boards and how much they have these roots of deeper meaning of what they do.

[00:22:37] And so that was such a beautiful experience.

[00:22:40] Sandie Morgan: We could talk about. That part of our trip for the next hour. And so I’m in a transition to more of the best practices that we learned about. One of the things that I love about bringing classes to fiat here in Madrid is the behind the scenes professionals, and I’d like to hear what you observed as best Practices, and maybe were you surprised at how many people are behind the scenes in supporting this program?

[00:23:24] Guests: Well, coming here to Madrid and experience experiencing this with Fiat, I think I was not surprised at all with how many hands come together in order to make this work for the women, in order for these women to be in a safe space around it, surrounded with. Other women who either went through similar things.

[00:23:49] I think it was just good to see that there’s so many people involved that just want to help them and want to be there with them along through their journey. ’cause they know that even after everyth everything that happened to them, there’s still such a bigger and greater thing waiting for them. And I think I was just, I was just, it was just something beautiful to be able to see that there’s just so many people who just care for these women.

[00:24:16] it was shocking to see how many people, for me. Seeing how many people were a part of it. we were sitting down at dinner one night and just kind of counting all the women on our hands. And then we were thinking about, how many staff there are. And there’s almost an equivalent number of staff that there is of women, at the home thinking of the 24 hour care.

[00:24:38] And just all of the little things that go into it. And today we had an opportunity to actually go to, the Fiat office and it was really cool just seeing, the different. The different avenues that there are, with the nonprofit and just all of the different jobs that are so necessary, and they’re all equally as important and they’re all, what, contribute to making this whole thing come together, the lawyers, down to the.

[00:25:04] The communication part of it down to, even the receptionist at the office, like there were so many, little parts and they were all like such key players. Whether you’re working hands-on with the women or you’re in detection or you’re just taking phone calls, all of it, is so important and all of it is what just helps, like make everything possible.

[00:25:27] We need like all that willingness

[00:25:29] Sandie Morgan: when we were walking through and there were at least three staff members that their computer screens were covered with Excel spreadsheets. As they’re handling all the accounting, paying the bills, raising the money. providing the accountability for the grants and the donors.

[00:25:52] And they’re important members of the team. And when we talk about how can you get involved in anti-trafficking, there is a place for every professional. So, okay. I, I’m moving on to my next question, which is actually for Dr. Brenda. I would like to know. You’ve had a little time. You’ve spent time with our students.

[00:26:24] You flew here with them. They talked about their expectations and their excitement, and then you observed, and this is a group of women you’ve worked with for three years here in um, Fiat in Madrid, through your research and previous visits. So can you tell me who changed more?

[00:26:52] Our students or the participants in the home?

[00:26:57] Guests: Hmm. And that’s such a powerful question and I think one that we’ll continue to think about and reflect on, I think long after we leave Spain.

[00:27:08] what I’ve witnessed is a kind of, I think, mutual transformation. Really, and one that can only happen when people come together with humility and openness. And, acomedidas as we talked about earlier, and really a, a willingness to serve. when I arrived, with our students, and we talked about acomedidas,

[00:27:33] We’ve talked about this being a posture of the heart, and we talked about specific ways, and we talked about that they could do this, you know, that they could, they could show these actions. And we encouraged our students, to approach all of their experiences and their time at the home, not as guests, but as young women stepping into really a sacred space that we’ve been invited into.

[00:27:56] And to be ready to learn, to be ready to listen. And to be ready to help wherever they can. And they really did.and they got up and they washed dishes and they helped cook and they asked questions and they really made themselves available. And in doing so, I think they didn’t just serve that. I think they also connected and they were.

[00:28:19] Changed by the strength and the hospitality and the faith of the women in the home. I think they were inspired and I think this will have a lasting effect. And I think they saw up close really what, uh, resilience looks like.and at the same time, I think the women in the home were also touched by the students’ willingness to be present, to stand with.

[00:28:41] I think that they felt the love in this group of students coming from so far away. And by the amount of respect that they showed and the joy and the laughter that was shared and that they were here, not to fix or to judge, but to honor their journey and, just to offer conversation and smiles and laughter.

[00:29:04] And so maybe, you know, maybe not necessarily, one being changed more than the other about how, you know, being, I think being acomedidas, really created a space for both groups to be transformed side by side. And I think in the end, that’s what justice looks like, right? Not just lifting others up by, but walking with them in a shared humanity and allowing ourselves to be changed in that process together.

[00:29:32] Sandie Morgan: At

[00:29:33] the end, there was a big picnic. To celebrate a birthday, but it was also a celebration for the whole community. And we took a picture of our team and their team and no faces. You can’t tell who is who. And it was arms around each other. And it was for me a picture of, acomedida, And I’m gonna put it as the photo in the podcast, social media posts.

[00:30:11] So you guys that are listening, look for that and you’ll see what I think, acomedida looks like.

[00:30:21] now.

[00:30:22] the part that is the most important, because you guys are taking this class for credit, we’re recording this on our last night in Madrid. What will you take with you now for your career? Do you, did it create more questions than answers?

[00:30:44] What will you take with you? Who wants to go first?

[00:30:50] Guests: I know for me, I think it’s. The strength, the power, the love that these women do. Their job, to me isn’t easy. I feel like I’d be sad hearing their stories and just the hearts that are aching. It makes me feel upset that there is nothing that we can do. We can only watch from afar, especially this one day with the detection team, just seeing so many women being able to like.

[00:31:22] Accepting the help, but not being able to receive in that moment is just like, Ugh, I wish we can do more. So I know for me it’s, I really would love to do more of the detection part of helping these women, being able to give them the supplies that they need, give them the knowledge that they need, and just giving ’em to a safe place that they’re more than just their bodies.

[00:31:45] They’re more than what they offer. They’re smart. They’re so intelligent, they’re. Talented, especially through women’s from the safe home. They’re so ugh. They’re so amazing, and it’s just sad to think about that they were taken advantage of for the wrong reasons and not for their talents. So, long story short, just being able to do more.

[00:32:07] I think there is many things that I’m gonna take away from this trip. One of them being that I kind of talked about previously with the group is that this, this is happening in our neighborhoods. It’s not just happening in Madrid, it’s happening it our towns in our cities, and I live in Arizona and so.

[00:32:28] I’ve seen things like this and I’ve never truly realized that this was human trafficking until now, and I think it’s really put a huge impact on me wanting to be a voice for these women who can’t speak for themselves and just educate more people on. What is happening in their neighborhoods is right next door.

[00:32:51] And I think these women have taught me how to have strength and how to have courage in such hard situations. And they have taught me such, like a beautiful way of keep pushing through every, every circumstance. I think I’m taking away a dream with this. Um. And the trip has been a, I’ve been getting a lot of influences of, dreams and of hopes and aspirations, and these women have really taught me that and I’ve had so much struggle with accepting that I can have dreams and that I can have aspirations and seeing them be so.

[00:33:34] Fearless and not having that fear to dream has really inspired me. And it just reminds me of one of the quotes that one of them wrote on Our Tree of Life, and it’s translated from Spanish so it doesn’t sound as good, but it basically says that the fear exists. But the important part is that your dreams are bigger than it and.

[00:33:54] They have fear, they’ve been taken advantage of. They’ve had people who have, hurt them and who have made their dreams feel small and insignificant, but they still have hope. And so I now have been taught that it’s okay to dream. And this morning when we were discussing with Fiona. About some plans that they had had.

[00:34:14] They brought up a hotel and I switched my major from socio or from business to sociology when I was a sophomore, but I was originally going in as a hospitality business major. And so I’ve kind of always had this dream of having a business, but it felt a little self-serving. And so now to know that.

[00:34:34] Those dreams could still be true and I could still take on that position. But with so much purpose and with a purpose that means so much to me to be able to provide income to these business or to this non-profits and to be able to provide jobs to these women. There’s so many different things that encapsulates and it kind of felt like that last piece of the puzzle that I was missing from this trip when she brought that up.

[00:34:58] And then, yeah, so I am taking away a dream. And I’m not sure what that looks like, but a quote that Dr. Morgan and I agreed and shared was that I don’t remember Dr. Martin Luther King’s. I have a planned speech, but we all remember his speech about his dream.

[00:35:16] I think that I have a lot of takeaways from this, but no matter what career I end up going, what path God leads me to, I know that this will be one of the biggest impacts. I know that it will help me. For the greater good. I think it’ll definitely probably help me in my life now, being able to see if there’s somebody who is going through the same situation, something similar, even if it’s, it means being able to help them.

[00:35:47] If it’s just with a little simple conversation and just being there, I think it would definitely help just being there and realizing that there are more people who, who are going through, through these things. Everyone has me crying. Um,even just already reflecting on this trip, I feel so changed. I feel like my life I have always kind of looked for, Purpose. And I really did find that with faith and, coming here on this trip, like Delaney was kind of saying like, puzzle pieces are coming together. And there’s just such a refreshing feeling I have of knowing and reminding myself like, I’m young, I’m only 19.

[00:36:35] I have so much more to learn. This was just a glimpse. This was, this was just a glimpse of like, what, Of what we’re capable of doing, especially together with sisterhood. And, on the subway we were just discussing like how we each pulled a little bit of a different thing outta this trip. and how it’s just so special knowing that, knowing that we all have, We all have this hunger and we all have this pull towards a cause. A cause that is so great and it needs people who are passionate. ’cause it’s a hard thing. It’s a hard thing to listen to stories and, and, and they, they make you upset when you hear about ’em because they sound so unfair and you just like question humanity.

[00:37:22] And. It sometimes was like, wow, this seems so hopeless, but you, this kind of thing needs women and it needs people who are so passionate about it. and so I just think that my passion, I found my passion and, yeah, now going back and, and having three more years of college, I’m just gonna start looking for ways that I can just start doing things.

[00:37:47] Now, if that’s just educating, if that’s just conver in conversation, people are tossing around terms that are being inappropriately used, like it’s speaking up for the women and for the people who don’t have a voice. and yeah, there’s just so many little things, and I feel like we often overlook ’em, but it’s just.

[00:38:07] I just feel like this was just such a special trip. I feel like this was just the beginning of such a special thing, and even looking right now at everyone here, I’m just so like happy and proud of everyone and grateful that God brought me here.

[00:38:21] Sandie Morgan: I’m going to answer my own question. I don’t do that usually, but what I’m going to take with me is your faces, your passion, the Gen Z response to something I’ve been working on

[00:38:42] for 30 years and the resilience. To keep showing up, keep raising the money to take a team, keep pressing forward in the face of higher education challenges because making this a study abroad trip with goals for knowledge and understanding so that you are able to process.

[00:39:19] Best and pure and blameless. Like it says in Philippians, people hear me all the time. That is what we take back from this, and when I can’t climb the stairs anymore, I know that you will be climbing this hill and making a difference wherever you are.

[00:39:46] Thank you for joining us for this special episode of the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. We are so proud of our Vanguard students who stepped out of the classroom and into real world service, gaining a deeper understanding of what it means to fight human trafficking.

[00:40:10] If you wanna learn more about our global partnerships, including Fiat in Spain, you’ll find links and resources in our show [email protected]. And while you’re there, don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can also follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn to stay connected.

[00:40:36] We’ll be back in two weeks.

Derek Marsh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss leveraging financial tools and intelligence as core investigative strategies to disrupt human trafficking operations and improve survivor restitution outcomes.

Derek Marsh is the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice and a deputy chief with extensive law enforcement experience. He has been a frequent guest on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast and led a recent roundtable discussion on following the money in human trafficking investigations. His background includes hands-on experience with trafficking investigations and a deep understanding of the collaborative approaches needed to combat these complex crimes.

[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 346, leveraging financial tools to disrupt human trafficking. I am very happy to be joined here in the studio by Global Center for Women and Justice Associate Director, deputy Chief Derek Marsh.

[00:00:28] We have been working together for a very long time and he’s been a frequent guest here on the podcast, so I’m not going to include a bio, but you can go back to the website and learn more from his perspective. By just searching our episodes with the name Derek Marsh. So we’re gonna dive right into the financial aspects.

[00:00:53] We recently interviewed David Tyree on following the money and we talked to, um, district attorney Ryann Jorban along the same lines.

[00:01:05] Today we’re going to look at this from a broader perspective, after having had a round table on following the money here at Vanguard University led by Derek Marsh, and let’s just get some understanding of what the key strategies and insights are.

[00:01:26] That we were able to glean from that round table, and that will lead us into some action steps. So welcome Derek.

[00:01:45] Derek Marsh: Thanks for having me again, Sandie.

[00:01:47] Sandie Morgan: So, who else was at the table?

[00:01:50] Derek Marsh: Well, besides you and myself, David Tyree, our expert from the, retired DEA agent, but also working with Valid8 Financial. Now, we also had Ryann Jorban, who’s an A DEA with Los Angeles, District Attorney’s Office, but we were also lucky enough to have a couple professors from here at Vanguard University.

[00:02:09] Professor Julius Angbor, who is a marketing and business expert, specifically in international business issues, focusing mostly in Africa and that region of the world. We also had assistant professor, Dr. Thomas Ropel, who was a retired FBI agent, who was able to focus on the collaborative strategies used by the federal agencies to work on human trafficking and exploitation types of investigations.

[00:02:35] We were also lucky to have assistant director of the US Department of Labor Wage in our division, Paul Chang, who was one of our favorites we’ve had on before. Uh, and he was able to discuss specifics about labor trafficking, where we’re finding a lot of labor trafficking occurring and how that process occurs.

[00:02:53] And we were also able to have, members, from Valid8 Financial actually show up and discuss their software and give us a demonstration to show how all these. incredible amounts of data that would take a regular person, you know, hours if not weeks, to put together their software is able to put together in a matter of minutes.

[00:03:12] It was amazing. So, we had a good group of people who we could discuss this with. And, and finally, I don’t wanna lose this out obviously, but we had, Linh Tran, who is our task force administrator, In charge of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force has been for years, ever since even I was there.

[00:03:30] So that’s like dating myself or dating her, I’m not sure which, and finally we had, of course, John Cotton Richmond, who, was gracious enough to spend some time with us. He was our, previous human trafficking, czar, maybe that’s the wrong word to use, but that’s, you know, our previous human trafficking, director for the United States and the State Department.

[00:03:52] And he was also, actively participating in, in the discussion helping us understand, uh, federal perspectives and where we’re moving forward with financial investigations and the financial tools that can be used.

[00:04:05] Sandie Morgan: And, and I think this round table demonstrated how broad the element of following the money as across our movement.

[00:04:18] We’re looking at law enforcement, we’re looking at prosecutors, but there’s also this sense that the element of restitution is more attainable for better victim outcomes, and that’s what drove me. You all know my background in pediatric nursing, so a lot of this was foreign language for me. So while Derek and I break down an executive summary of what happened at that round table, I’m the one whoDoesn’t understand even what a forensic accountant does.

[00:04:54]  So I’m gonna help stop him when it sounds a little too complicated so that I can put it into my normal context. Is that okay with you, Derek?

[00:05:11] Derek Marsh: Perfectly okay. Frankly, I don’t wanna pretend I’m an accountant at heart either, but I, I do love the numbers and I, I love the fact that, uh, numbers don’t lie. That the reality is that they can hide things, hide people, hide locations, hide phone numbers. But when you get ahold of the accounts and you’re able to track those accounts and where money’s moving, it really gives you a crystal clear perspective of the

[00:05:33] criminal organization that is running any kind of a human trafficking operation.

[00:05:39] Sandie Morgan: So our first. Key strategy is built around the aspect of financial intelligence as a core investigative tool. And when I first started hearing the group around the table talk about financial intelligence, I kind of reduced it to my understanding of, oh, we need financial literacy. And then I began to see there was a huge world I had never explored, and that is an area of data that, we need to understand.

[00:06:18] Can you unpack that for us?

[00:06:20] Derek Marsh: I will try. Again, Um, still getting to know, some specifics about this, but lemme go back to a time when I was actually wearing uniform and we were doing investigations where we would run into these sex trafficking operations, labor trafficking organizations, and

[00:06:36] we would look for money. We really couldn’t find that much of it. And we’re trying to figure out why is that? We know money’s a major, major motivator for this, and saving money’s great, but we know that they were also producing money and we just couldn’t seem to get a hold of it. Understanding that financial intelligence as a core investigative tool kind of flipped the switch for me.

[00:06:54] As far as perspective with the idea is instead of looking at any organization is basically a financial, Method to which finances are moved. You know, places are supported, people are supported, people are charged. All of that became kind of, it almost felt like saying “duh”, because it was just so intrinsically basic that we’ve been relying so much on.

[00:07:19] confidential informants or going on the web and trying to solicit, people to in initiate an investigation or maybe relying on past, victim survivors who could share with us what they thought was going on. Whereas if we were to go into these, financial records of these different organizations, we would’ve had a much cleaner perspective and been much less reliant on our victim survivors to provide evidence to substantiate these criminal organizations.

[00:07:48] Sandie Morgan: So some of the patterns that you’re looking for, use terminology. That is new to me. “Funnel accounts”, “structured cash deposits”, “geographically patterned movements”. Can you break that down a little bit?

[00:08:06] Derek Marsh: I will try, but it’s still, it’s still a little bit of Greek to me as well. The idea here is that you have certain accounts that roll over and are pushed forward to different, different locations.

[00:08:17] So you might start at this bank and then have it a certain amount rolled over to the next account, then a following bank account. So you have to, there’s actually a trail that’s left, but the more they move it, the more difficult it is. To identify where the money initially came from and it, and its legitimacy also, you find that they move locations as well.

[00:08:36] So maybe you start with a bank here in the United States of America, but then you’re at the Grand Caymans and maybe you’re in Switzerland next and maybe you’re wherever. And it keeps making circles coming back to where people are able to access it. So by the time you see the money or those people are able to access the money, It’s so deep into this, electronic transferring that anybody just looking at normal accounts would see transfers in and out, but they wouldn’t be able to follow the money from the point of origin where the trafficking occurred or where the money’s being, taken to the point where it’s actually being used to facilitate organizational goals and missions, which in this case are criminal.

[00:09:16] So. These types of operational dynamics are important for us to understand how this organization is structured and also understands how extensive that organization may be. We, you know, we talk about mom and pop organizations versus criminal enterprises. Will the financials really support? Whether it something is really just a mom and pop organization, maybe just does one or two jumps in a financial stream and it stops, versus having criminal enterprises where it may, it may have 15, 20, 30 different stops at.

[00:09:49] Different bank accounts may not even seem to be cross related to the bank account before or after, but then in essence are the way that they’re hiding this money, they’re funneling this money, they’re laundering this money basically, to make it more, seem more legitimate, so that the organization can use it to further their criminal enterprise.

[00:10:07] Sandie Morgan: So that kind of financial investigation can actually expose those kind crimes that are connected and that we’re looking at them as separate crimes, but they’re really part of

[00:10:22] a network, an enterprise is the language that you’re using.

[00:10:26] Derek Marsh: Right. I, I look back at some of the things we, we found when we were doing our investigation, some of what we considered mom and pop organizations for sex trafficking and for labor trafficking.

[00:10:36] And now having, again, Paul Chans insight into how these are, are run. Also, seeing how these financial insights can be provided. It makes me wonder if we were just being naive and shortsighted and not realizing that they, they all worked the same way, but they didn’t seem connected. But if we’d take the time, had the resources to follow the money, that I think we would’ve found that there were a lot more connections and a lot larger criminal enterprise than we initially suspected.

[00:11:01] Sandie Morgan: And from my side of the perspective on victim services, victim, restitution, one of the things that happens when you start using finance as a core investigative tool is.

[00:11:20] We can prove things without making a survivor testify in court, publicly facing her abuser. So there’s some intangible rewards, not just financial.

[00:11:37] So I, I was thinking about the structured cash deposits that are part of what they follow and I remember someone talking at their table about how they avoid being detected by some of the alerts we have in accounts by depositing just under the limit before it rises to the level of investigation.

[00:12:05] And our group talked about how the SAR can be part of our strategies. What is that?

[00:12:15] Derek Marsh: So SAR stands for “suspicious activity reports” that banks are required to share with different agencies. If they find a singular deposit or a pattern of deposits they, they believe might be. Generated through criminal enterprise.

[00:12:33] Now, how they determine that I’m gonna defer to David Tyree every day of the week. ’cause I mean, he’s the man when it comes to understanding that and articulating better. However, what these reports are do is they’re, they’re, they’re sent to various federal agencies, which can either act upon them or not act upon them.

[00:12:51] The challenge is if they’re able to take those reports and able to go through the various deposits and movement of money sufficiently to be able to establish any kind of pattern or practice behavior. And obviously I think most, most people who don’t understand accounting, and I’m gonna have to raise my hand here and say I’m not an accountant.

[00:13:13] I don’t even pretend to be one. Are gonna have a hard time looking at some of those numbers. ’cause my extent, my sense of understanding is like looking at my paycheck, sorry, looking at my paycheck and following it into my bank account and realize it got deposited there. I’m pumped. So these are way more complicated and way more intricate.

[00:13:29] And as a result they were, that’s when David and our, our, our friends from Valid8 Financial, were able to. Demonstrate how their software is able just to take these sheets and sheets of papers and make sense out of it and connect the dots, where just looking at a document would prove nothing other than, yeah, I’m looking at a document.

[00:13:48] It looks like an Excel spreadsheet that has no intrinsic meaning to me, and no way of connecting the dots.

[00:13:54] Sandie Morgan: So visualizing those transaction flows instead of just, engaging in actual accounting, adding up the numbers is a different way of using financial intelligence in the investigation process.

[00:14:16] And if you wanna go back and listen to our interview with David Tyree, it’s episode number 341. And frankly, I had to listen to it three times, so you might wanna set aside a little extra time because there’s a lot of, content in his explanation. And I think it’s important for us as local advocates, even though this seems like it’s way beyond, what the average person is going to be able to apply

[00:14:51] It does give us an edge in asking questions and finding ways to get the right people with that expertise at our table in our courts and our, investigations.

[00:15:08] Derek Marsh: Sandie, you mentioned courts, and I think it’s important we remember that the, the beauty of some of this investigative tools and these methods and this software is that it presents this data in a comprehensible format. So instead of an investigator testifying, “Hey, you may not see it, but I’m telling you it’s really there”, and everyone’s saying, well, that’s not quite good enough to prove evidentiary value, they’re able to create re.

[00:15:32] Ports showing link analysis and other types of pictures and images that represent flows of money back and forth, who it’s going to, what accounts it’s coming to and from the amount that it’s coming to and from making it. Very easy for both prosecutors, defense attorneys, suspects, and our judges to have a better understanding of what’s being presented in court so they can decide if this really does substantiate the claim that these persons or individual is part of a criminal enterprise.

[00:16:07] Sandie Morgan: So, I know that. With the kind of data that’s out there. Now, my family knows where I am most of the time. I’m assuming that probably my financial institution can figure out where I am depositing money from or withdrawing if I’m withdrawing from an ATM in another country.

[00:16:32] And this aspect of investigation that is location centered seems to be able to add to our ability to corroborate a victim’s story in other elements in, in our investigation. Can you expand on that?

[00:16:54] Derek Marsh: Sure. So I mean, and what, like you were saying, if some credit cards are generous, some are not so generous. You know, you can leave the country if you don’t notify your credit card, they’ll shut down any transaction occurs internationally.

[00:17:05] But I get notifications every once in a while saying, “Hey, is this particular activity relevant to you? Did you actually charge this to your account?” And I think we’ve all experienced that to some degree. Technology’s kind of a world where the, the, the bank has an algorithm. They have a way that you usually spend your money and if something falls outside those parameters, they’re checking in on you.

[00:17:26] They don’t wanna inherit that debt, especially if you’re gonna deny it. Well, that same thing works on the international level as well. The idea that there are certain streams, location to location of financial flow that have a high chance of being suspect of criminal activity. For instance, there’s a Nigeria, Italy,

[00:17:46] pathway of funds that it makes, banks quiver in their, in their, in their vaults, if you will, to, to realize that maybe something isn’t all, all right in Denmark there, or maybe the Philippines to Europe. I mean, all of these, and there are multiple, many, many more of those, but I’m just throwing a couple off.

[00:18:04] The idea being that certain location, two locations can potentially raise red flags. That there is potential criminal activity gone. Even if it’s the transactions, it may seem legitimate. Even if it’s going from a church to a church or it’s going from a gov apparent government organization to apparent government organization or a government organization to an NGO, they are able to look, they’re able to see those risk-based locations, risk-based, transactions, and they’re able to generate either those suspicious activity reports.

[00:18:37] or they’re able to pay more attention to those to see if they need to generate an SARI to let law enforcement know there may be illicit crimes occurring. And these particular corridors are funneling locations are being used to facilitate that criminal enterprise.

[00:18:57] Sandie Morgan: So that geographical piece leads me then into thinking about how some of our old paradigms for investigation that, have to do with, this is my territory. this, my investigation ends at the county line.

[00:19:17] How do we overcome that by creating some way to collaborate across that kind of geographical, restriction?

[00:19:28] Derek Marsh: I think from day one, we just have to accept that human trafficking cannot be done on an island.

[00:19:35] You just cannot have one agency that is responsible for an entire case. I think I’ve told the story before where on the first trafficking investigation, we tried to try to do it independently. I was kind of arrogant. I felt like, Hey, we’ve done other investigations without outside help. I should be able to handle this internally.

[00:19:53] And found out very quickly the complications involving victim witness assistance. the complications involved with having international, suspects involved, having international connections involved where they were transported from a foreign country here to the us. All of those things were way outside my capabilities handling.

[00:20:12] So you have to collaborate, you have to have multiple agencies getting together to work this out. And now we’re finding that, And not really a surprise, but I think just something that just doesn’t normally hit in most investigations from a local or even a, a county based investigative team is we need to look at finances as being ultimately the most mobile thing out there.

[00:20:33] I mean, think about it, our phones, cross state and country barriers. Without a blink, we, you know, I can call and we’ve done it. Now, we’ve done our travels, we’ve called home. No, no. It sounds like we’re next door. It is. No big deal. So same thing with finances. They get moved as quick as you can. Your internet connections are bouncing all over the world, you know, as they validate and go across different countries and different states and different, areas.

[00:20:55] So it’s not surprising to find that we have to think if human trafficking is being a much more sophisticated financial network than we originally suspected.

[00:21:07] Sandie Morgan: So, you know me, I’m not an athlete and I, I resist all of those sports analogies, but for me, when I started beginning to understand the conversation around that table about all that bouncing

[00:21:23] It’s like we have to have our teams where we’re passing the ball between the players, the players in the uk, the players in Africa, those kinds of global models, And how do we do that when, It can’t all fit through governments because often the governments don’t have those kinds of connections.

[00:21:52] Derek Marsh: Well, and that’s where you come with your public private partnerships. That’s when you’re looking at connecting businesses together that might be able to support or help validate what’s going on.

[00:22:01] A bank is a business, if you wanna think of it that way. Yeah. Corporations, right? So, you wanna think of NGOs. ’cause here’s the thing. Not all NGOs just stay in one spot and they’re singular. We have international NGOs all over the place that we can connect with and move forward. We have faith-based organizations that are internationally, located.

[00:22:20] So if you need help identifying people or providing resources, or even being able to host, you know, investigators when they go to these different locations, then they’re out there as well too. I think that there are a, a group there, there’s a large number of opportunities here where your private groups, your, especially your business partners, your corporations, can really contribute significantly and positively to not only providing, helping provide the tools that make these investigations so much more coherent and understandable to judges and prosecutors and to investigators, but also the idea that these public-private partnerships help build multiple groups of interlocking layers so that they leverage everyone’s expertise to create a greater whole than they would ever have individually.

[00:23:15] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:23:17] It’s still a bit complicated. I may have to listen to this episode three times, but, I wanna come down to the reason I was at the table, the idea of survivor centered restitution and financial empowerment. How is this going to be more than just about catching the bad guys another way to capture somebody?

[00:23:43] Derek Marsh: Well, Sandie, I share your frustration.

[00:23:45] I know in California and just about every state in the United States, including our federal government, restitution is mandatory. Our victim survivors need to get money to compensate them, for them to start standing up on their own and re recompense them for what’s occurred to them. You can’t unwind and exploitation.

[00:24:01] I’m not pretending that, but at least you could put, put them in a better financial position moving forward, so they can be, have a better chance for success. So when you’re using financial software to identify the account and identify the amounts of money, who the players are, the locations that there are, how they’re spending or not spending the money, this allows you to be able to do what cops love to do is seize things right?

[00:24:24] And obviously legally we’re not just out there just to robber bear in the world. But the idea here is that if we’re able to find this money that historically has been so difficult and so ephemeral and difficult hold of, now we can find these bank accounts that are. Obviously facilitating the criminal enterprise, lock those monies down and then start using that money to pay restitution to our victim survivors based on whatever the amounts are that are reasonable and are mandated by whatever statute you’re following.

[00:24:56] In addition to that, besides just having your victim. Victims be compensated, or survivors being compensated. This can, all, this money can also be put together to help, fund further investigations and to fund further victim services. So it, it works for everybody. It’s a win-win across the board. The criminal enterprise loses the money upon which it’s, it’s based, it’s gonna be disrupted if not dismantled the,

[00:25:22] Victims are getting restitution. And maybe even if we’re, if we have, we’re able to find sufficient funds, maybe even get a little compensation for the time of during the investigation and for the victim services that are going to have been provided and will need to be provided moving forward. ’cause you know, our victims just don’t get better the minute they’re released from the are liberated from these situations.

[00:25:43] And finally, it’s also something that we can do as far as making it clear for the courts. So that we can make sure that these people are held accountable. Maybe not just criminally, but also civilly and administratively as well. Paying fines to those agencies that have been, circumvented those rules that have been ignored so that we can help support other agencies out there and other, public-private partnerships, if you will, to move forward and sustain the effort that we’re trying to maintain.

[00:26:15] Sandie Morgan: So let’s think through, if we want to call our listeners to action, what are some areas that deserve our attention?

[00:26:26] We don’t know all the answers, but we are going to be seeking out experts to provide this kind of knowledge base on

[00:26:35] the ending Human Trafficking podcast. So let’s talk about that.

[00:26:39] Derek Marsh: Well, I think number one, and it sounds like, I think this is the answer just about everything we started, it was like training, training, training.

[00:26:45] We have to get people to articulate better that I’m articulating to you now, but to to not only articulate, but understand the importance and significance of using financial tools and financial investigative techniques to supplement human trafficking investigations and show positive results. I think that’s number one.

[00:27:04] Number two, you’ve gotta find ai, you know, artificial intelligence enhanced tools to help us do that work. Because the reality is there are many, many officers out in the field over a hundred thousand, right? But guess what? Not all of ’em are accountants. In fact, I would guess most of ’em are not. And I think that.

[00:27:20] That’s why you need these tools to supplement the efforts and make them work well. The other thing we need to understand is there is cross border legal and data sharing frameworks. We need to understand, respect, and follow to make sure our investigations aren’t. usurped by evidentiary problems or by misunderstandings across borders so we can make sure that we hold everyone accountable and liberate the people who need to liberate as well.

[00:27:48] And finally, we have to maintain, like we always do, our survivor victim-centered, trauma-informed approach across the board, enhance those restitutions that we are unfortunately not capable of enforcing all the time. Even though they may be levied against a group, they may not be able to afford it and they’re not able to afford it ’cause we can’t identify the financial

[00:28:11] pathways and the accounts and all of the intricacies involved with the whole finance of these operations. But if we have this software, we’re able to freeze those accounts, you know, use those SAR effectively, then we’ll be able to recoup much more money.

[00:28:27] Provide those needed services and they that can be paid for through the restitutions and help these people start in a much better place than square one with dime zero and having to rely and  continue to rely on other people to move forward in their lives.

[00:28:45] Sandie Morgan: I think my favorite quote at the end of the round table regarding survivors

[00:28:55] is that this kind of investigative tool translates financial intelligence into justice.

[00:29:03] Wow. Um. Ultimately, human trafficking is a financial crime. Ambassador Richmond wanted to be at the table because that has been his mantra from the time he was a DOJ attorney all the way through his, service at the State Department, and so many people in this movement. Are beginning to grasp that this is not just a horrific human rights issue.

[00:29:39] It’s not just about sexual exploitation. Even when we use the word exploitation, it implies a financial crime. So we need to up our game in having tools. To investigate the financial side of things. So we wanna call you to start doing your own digging, find out what tools are there, and look up our friends at

[00:30:07] Valid8 Financial. Go online and read the executive summary. It has citations for many of the things we’ve talked about here. See a list of the people who are around the table. Find somebody in your area. Begin to develop partnerships and together we will start making financial intelligence a part of our understanding and a part of our toolkit in this battle to combat human trafficking.

[00:30:41] Derek, thanks for showing up again.

[00:30:43] Derek Marsh: Thanks for having me show up. I appreciate it.

[00:30:45] Sandie Morgan: And if you are new to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, please go on over to the ending human trafficking website, subscribe and you’ll be notified when a new episode drops every two weeks. Find out what we’re doing.

[00:31:06] follow our survivor voices, check out our resources, and come back in two weeks for the next episode.

Ryann Gerber Jorban joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss how labor exploitation functions as a hidden form of modern-day slavery, and how community collaboration, empathy, and survivor-centered strategies are critical in addressing labor trafficking.

Ryann Gerber Jorban is a seasoned prosecutor with the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office, where she has served since 1998. With a background in sociology from UC Riverside and a law degree from the University of Michigan, she has devoted her career to seeking justice for vulnerable communities, including children, the elderly, and survivors of abuse and human trafficking. In her role as Deputy in Charge, she leads both the Economic Justice and Labor Justice Units, focusing on wage theft, labor exploitation, and fraud. Ryann is nationally recognized for her survivor-centered approach, combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to collaboration, trust building, and meeting survivors’ foundational needs. She was also a featured speaker at the 2025 Ensure Justice Conference, where she shared her insights on labor trafficking and the exploitation of children.

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women. Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice. Make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:22] Today I am joined by Ryann Gerber Jorban, a seasoned prosecutor with the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office. She has served there since 1998. With a background in sociology from uc, Riverside, and a law degree from the University of Michigan, she has devoted her career to seeking justice for vulnerable communities, including children, the elderly survivors of abuse.

[00:00:54] Human trafficking victims in her role as deputy in charge. She leads both the economic justice and labor justice units focusing on wage theft. Labor exploitation and fraud. Ryann is nationally recognized for her survivor-centered approach, combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to collaboration, trust building, and meeting survivors foundational needs. We were honored to have Ryann join us as a speaker at this year’s. Ensure Justice Conference 2025. She shared her insight on labor trafficking and the exploitation of children.

[00:01:39] Well, welcome to the ending Human Trafficking podcast, Ryann Gerber Jor. What is it like to be deputy in charge?

[00:01:49] Ryann Gerber Jorban: it’s basically the same as being a deputy district attorney, but with more work.

[00:01:54] Sandie Morgan: More work. Oh, I thought it would be more fun because you’d have more power. I liked the in charge part of your title.

[00:02:01] Ryann Gerber Jorban: the in charge part is nice. It’s very funny. In our office, deputy in charge is actually the lowest level of management. I think they give us that in charge part. So, we feel power even though we have very little. But, I. I will say it is the fun always feels bad when you’re talking about, crime and victims, but it is the most fun I have ever had in my career.

[00:02:24] it’s fulfilling. It’s exciting. It’s a little crazy, but it’s definitely the best job I’ve had so far in the DA’s office and I’ve loved all 26 years of my life in the DA’s office. So that’s saying a lot.

[00:02:37] Sandie Morgan: Oh, I love that. And for our listeners, she is smiling while she’s saying that, and I’ve known Ryann for a while now and her smile is very authentic. And Ryann, your deputy in charge, full title is Economic Justice and Labor Justice Units. So explain why that is such a fun job. Yeah.

[00:03:00] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah, so I’m part of, um, so I work for LA County District Attorney’s office, part of our consumer protection Division. It’s the bigger division and we protect consumers from all kinds of levels of fraud. And, back in, 2017, uh. Jackie Lacey, who was the DA at the time, and a wonderful human being. she, started the, what we called at the time, the Notario Fraud Unit, and we now call it the Economic Justice Unit because it’s more expansive in what we cover, but it was basically protecting vulnerable communities from fraud that is.

[00:03:38] Pointed at them because of their vulnerabilities. Their vulnerabilities make them, much more likely to be victimized, than other people. And, I got to be the first, da. I had a boss and then it was me. I was the first trial lawyer in there. And it was the, it was amazing.I’ve worked with vulnerable victims as a sex crimes and domestic violence and child abuse prosecutor for most of my career.

[00:04:01] And so this was a natural. Shift and no one was really helping these people in the same way that we were, and I was really proud of that.

[00:04:08] Sandie Morgan: I love that. So that’s a good way to segue, into where our conversation is gonna go today.

[00:04:16] You’ve called labor exploitation, a form of modern day slavery. Can you unpack what that means in your work and why the public should even care?

[00:04:29] Ryann Gerber Jorban: So we tend to get, very focused on the word trafficking. And Sandie, you’ve heard me say this, like ad naum, trafficking’s important trafficking. Is a powerful way to move our messaging. But what we have to understand is labor exploitation is a spectrum, and on one end is trafficking. On the first end is not being paid what you’re owed, but it’s, even though it’s a spectrum, it’s very short journey from one to the other.

[00:04:56] and so when I say labor exploitation, we don’t treat workers and give them their rights and protect them. In the workplace, we are treating them as less than human. And no one deserves to be treated as less than human. I don’t care what you’ve done. everything we read from the Constitution to the Bible to philosopher says, how we treat the least of us is what we will be measured by.

[00:05:22] And so I truly believe that. So, The, the labor exploitation, leads us to dehumanize those who work and those who work are why we exist. So, that’s my little philosophical part of that. but the bigger part is labor exploitation’s a crime and you’re stealing from people. I don’t like that. I, I’m, I’m not a big fan of that.

[00:05:45] Sandie Morgan: All right. So I love how you pulled in the moral aspect, and I hope that your words and the knowledge in what we’re learning today about this will help our listeners and generally our public to be able to identify why they care about labor trafficking. Because as you and I have talked about, sex trafficking gets a. Lot more of the attention and it deserves attention. But labor trafficking deserves the same level of attention, and we can do a better job reporting and being eyes and ears in our community.

[00:06:31] So let’s talk about wage. These sound like kind of boring things. Again,

[00:06:38] labor trafficking doesn’t have all of the sexy conversation, that we sometimes come to expect in the human trafficking conversations.

[00:06:50] So let’s talk about how do wage theft and force labor show up in Los Angeles County, and then we’ll move into what can we do to better identify those crimes?

[00:07:06] Ryann Gerber Jorban: So, there’s certain. Areas that are ripe for wage theft and, and forced labor. they tend to be lower paid. They tend to need a lot of workers. They tend to have, a lot of, movement across workers, and especially in LA County or Southern California. They’re going to be primarily filled.

[00:07:29] Not primarily, but very largely filled by people who are either undocumented or undocumented. So their power is very low, right? and their need is very high. And when you have high need and low power, you are extremely vulnerable to being mistreated, and In LA County, we see a lot of that, of course in construction, car washes,restaurants, healthcare,these are areas where we really can have a huge.

[00:08:03] Problem that no one sees, right? Because you go into a illicit massage business, you’re gonna see what’s going on. You go into a restaurant, you’re not necessarily gonna see that the dishwasher’s not being paid more than $5 an hour, and that dishwasher doesn’t have a choice, right? He can’t get a job ’cause he’s here undocumented.

[00:08:24] He has a family back either back in his home country or here that he has to.

[00:08:31] He, is at the absolute power of his employer who can fire him, who can choose to pay him or not pay him that day, and who can threaten to have him deported if he is not happy with him.

[00:08:46] Sandie Morgan: Wow. All of that sounds like the definition of coercion.

[00:08:50]

[00:08:50] Ryann Gerber Jorban: There’s two definitions that work. We see a lot of debt bondage, which is where somebody says, you owe me this money and you have to work for me till you pay it off, or, I owe you this money and I’m not going to give it to you until X date occurs and you have to continue to work for me Until then, so it’s.

[00:09:09] I’ll gladly have you work today, but I’ll pay you next Tuesday.

[00:09:12] Sandie Morgan: Hmm.

[00:09:13] So let me ask this because you’re talking about,

[00:09:16] $5 an hour, and the minimum wage here in California right now is $16 an hour,

[00:09:24] Ryann Gerber Jorban: so we have a case that we just settled that was a garment worker case, and the garment workers were working 55 hours a week and be making, roughly five to $6 an hour.

[00:09:36] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So here’s the question people ask me in general community settings. So if they’re getting paid, then I can’t report it as human trafficking, even if it’s not at minimum wage. So what’s that gray area? Does the fact that they are getting paid $5 an hour eliminate a trafficking case?

[00:10:04] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Not at all. So what you’re being paid actually is less, of an issue as to how you are being controlled. So labor, forced labor trafficking is the somebody having to work based on force fear or coercion force is what we tend to think of traditionally, right? They’re in

[00:10:29] Sandie Morgan: White van kidnapped.

[00:10:32] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. and, and we have that same mindset with sex trafficking too, by the way.

[00:10:36] I’ve done sex trafficking, so I’m real familiar with both ends of that spectrum. But, we’re not talking about chained up people at the side of the road. Okay. Or in a field being beaten. So force is there. There’s lots of violence. There’s guns, there’s threats, there’s, I have, I have one case right now where they threatened to murder them, but that is not the primary driver here.

[00:11:01] The primary is gonna be the fear. I’m going to call ice. I’m gonna have your children taken away by DCFS. I know someone in the mafia or in the organized crime who’s going to do something to you. or, your family back home will pay for this. So that’s the fear. And then the coercion is controlling them somehow, keeping their visas, keeping their documents.

[00:11:30] Holding onto their pay, saying to agricultural workers. We see this a lot in ag. Um,I’ll pay you when the, when the, when the, the harvest is done. So these people are working 6, 8, 10 weeks, but they’re not getting paid till the end of that time

[00:11:49] and

[00:11:49] they can’t leave if they walk away from that work.

[00:11:53] They’re not gonna get what they’re already owed. and of course by the time you get to the end of that, they don’t have a lot of power to get that money back ’cause they can’t take the work back, right? So they take whatever they can get. So coercion, controlling them and, exploiting their vulnerabilities and their desperate need, is what keeps people enforced labor.

[00:12:18] And it’s that imbalance of power that creates an opportunity for someone to exploit or abuse another person. And we see that across the spectrum in family violence, in child abuse. In, worker complaints, but here it is significantly amplified by the extreme vulnerability. When we’re talking about children who are in this space, kids who have been rescued from labor trafficking often are unaccompanied refugee minors. or the children of undocumented, or as you say, not fully documented, parents. Can you use some of the elements of the case you worked on with the Guatemalan youth to give us a little better understanding there?

[00:13:21] Yeah, we were involved, uh, tangentially in that case, but I’m very aware of it. I helped, I, I actually spoke to them about kind of what their rights were and things and, so. Chicken processing plants in LA County. There’s a large number of them who knew

[00:13:39] Sandie Morgan: I know. It was a big surprise for me

[00:13:41] too.

[00:13:42] Ryann Gerber Jorban: And, for whatever reason we see across the country in meat and chicken processing and egg processing, a large number of Guatemalan.

[00:13:52] migrants who are working in those areas, and there’s often a lot of labor trafficking. And that’s a, maybe we could talk about that topic another time about why, but, the, here in LA County we had that, we had a case that was handled by the Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division. And when they went in, they found, migrant teens.

[00:14:16] I believe the age range was 14 to 17. working in this chicken processing plant cleaning. Cutting chicken into pieces, things like this. And all of these kids have been brought up here as unaccompanied minors.and if you think about the vulnerabilities of an adult.

[00:14:34] Then you add that to being a 15-year-old kiddo who thinks that, who not only thinks, but is truly their family’s only hope back in Guatemala.

[00:14:44] So, you know, they screw up here. Their family in Guatemala loses their land at best, loses their lives at worst. Right? And my 15-year-old can barely wipe down the counters. Don’t tell her I said that. We won’t let her hear this part, you know, and,

[00:15:02] And, if I threaten her, with losing her ability to go out on the weekend, that works really well.

[00:15:08] I can’t imagine what these kids feel. I can’t imagine the terror and pressure they feel.

[00:15:15] Sandie Morgan: So that’s a great segue into one of the things that I love about you, because you can imagine, and, and I think we could define that capacity to imagine that trauma, that pain as empathy that really marks your leadership with a victim centered approach. So.my first question about how you put survivors first as you build a case around human needs, I’ve heard you speak about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs

[00:15:53] in relation to the victims. so how does that actually shape your legal strategy?

[00:16:02] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. So, you know, Maslow’s Triangle is the idea that we have to have certain base needs met in a, in progression before we can get to a higher level of. Ability to work in the world, right? So if you don’t know where you’re going to eat, what you’re going to eat that night, or as a mom, I always go back to my kids.

[00:16:24] If my, I don’t know how I’m feeding my kids that night, I’m not really gonna care about self-esteem. Like, like it’s not gonna be high on my level ’cause I have these basic needs. So when I’m building a legal case, I need to recognize that the people who are being mistreated. Are just trying to survive at these lower levels of Maslow’s Triangle, and I don’t have that experience.

[00:16:47] I am blessed. I don’t know what that feels like. and so I need to be sure that I’m, keeping that in mind. So when I build a case, what I try to do is build the case without the victim or our, our person who’s being, mistreated to carry the case.

[00:17:08] Are not my primary witness. My primary witness is gonna be other things that I can prove without their participation or with minimal participation.

[00:17:17] So not did they abuse you, but did you get to have a lunch break? I can build a case on the failure to pay someone for their lunch break. Break, and then once they are. Once we file that case and we’re doing well with it, and they get stabilized. They get case management and services and a, a job and immigration services, and they now know where they’re going to eat.

[00:17:43] They have a safe place to live. Their kids are safe now they are high enough on Maslow’s to help me. With a much more serious case. So my belief is we try the case we have in front of us, we don’t put it on the shoulder of our victims. And then as we give our victims the support and stabilization they need through our partners in the nonprofit world, then we utilize their strength to build a a, a more serious case if possible.

[00:18:11] Sandie Morgan: So using this legal strategy, how effective has that been in For me, the real justice part of this is more focused on. How the victims, receive restitution. I know it’s good to put the bad guys in prison, but, how effective has this strategy been in that respect, because that is a survivor first focus.

[00:18:41] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. So when we, are doing these cases, our primary interest is getting our, survivors. Two things when we first come into contact with them. you know, best practice and we’re still working on this. I am a work in progress, Lord knows, um, literally, Is making sure that we are working with our nonprofit partners who work with these communities.

[00:19:03] I am, can’t tell ’cause voice, but I am a white, middle class suburban mom who literally drives a minivan and used to go to soccer games. Now I go to band. I am a band mom, right? I do not have the cultural knowledge of other communities outside of mine. None of us do. We know our culture. So for our own cultural intelligence, which is a thing, we have to utilize people who have that cultural intelligence to assist us.

[00:19:32] it is arrogance and hubris to think that we can understand somebody else’s culture well enough to. give them what they need culturally and supportively. But by going to a community organization, I love working with the Thai Community Development Center. ’cause even though Thai is in their name,they understand this and they have people from all different cultures who can help the subsets of people.

[00:19:56] They help.

[00:19:57] Sandie Morgan: The Thai CDC, helps stabilize provide case management and provide legal structure for our victims, and that allows us to, move them up Maslow’s Triangle in a culturally appropriate way. When we try to do that without the cultural appropriation, it’s not gonna work. But when we do that, we are putting them first in their needs first.

[00:20:22] Ryann Gerber Jorban: And I think I got off topic.

[00:20:24] Sandie Morgan: No, you’re good. You’re good. And,

[00:20:26] Ryann I’ve heard you use this phrase before and to kinda sum up this, putting survivors first part of our conversation, you said you want to build a case with a survivor instead of around them. what does that look like in real life?

[00:20:49] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Slight,

[00:20:50] tangent. You know, we talk a lot about the words victim, survivor, rescue, all of these things. We’re not the center of these cases. It, it’s not what we need. We should be focusing on in these cases, it’s what the person who went through it needs that we should be focusing on. And so when I say with, I need to meet the survivor where they are, I cannot force them to meet the me where I need them to be.

[00:21:17] That’s just unrealistic and that’s why we can’t do a lot of these cases. So if where they are is they can’t help me. That’s absolutely fair. they owe me nothing. and so, understanding where they are from and having empathy for where they are and making sure that they have the support they need, is my primary goal.

[00:21:38] So when we settle these cases, or when we prosecute these cases, our number one interest is what can we do if our victims are not able to help us? Okay? Because that doesn’t mean the person should get to walk just because they picked particularly vulnerable people. Okay? In fact, the opposite second. What can we do?

[00:22:01] What can we provide? Who can we partner with to make sure that our victims are supported and that this bad thing that happened to them turns into their opportunity to have a better life?

[00:22:13] Sandie Morgan: That’s so good and such a great segue to the

[00:22:17] next aspect.

[00:22:18] I wanna

[00:22:19] talk about the collaboration and community trust that, and you’ve already started that a little bit with Thai CDC, but beyond just that, who else do you need in order to help, especially these foreign national victims, unaccompanied refugee minors? what part of the community needs to be at the table?

[00:22:46] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Wow. That’s a big question, Sandie. I mean, it, it’s really broad, right? We need, we need law enforcement. I mean, we often hear from. Certain settings, law enforcement’s the enemy. No. An educated, trained law enforcement is actually a great resource because they see what people are going through on the street.

[00:23:05] Very few of us do, right? So we need law enforcement, we need government agencies. here in LA County we have the Office of Grant Affairs. It’s a great agency that pulls from different parts of LA County government to provide what immigrants need to thrive in our community. When you have a. Third of your community being immigrants, you can’t just say, we’re not going to pay attention to them, right?

[00:23:27] You need nonprofits like, TCDC, but also like, day laborers, uh, Lon, the National Day Laborers Association. You need unions that provide people a upwardly mobile and protected workplace. You need, um, churches. You need synagogues, you need, mosques, all of who provide, especially in the thing strings, no strings attached.

[00:23:54] No expectation of what that person will give back support to their community, especially culturally. Community needs,embassies are great resources because of course they know who their people are. Everybody has a role in this. everyone can can help if for no other reason than demanding that workers are paid fairly.

[00:24:19] So if you see, if you go into a place and the workers don’t seem to be being treated fairly, turn around and walk out.

[00:24:26] Sandie Morgan: vote with your feet.

[00:24:28] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Absolutely. I found out the restaurant that we used to go to for brunch most Sundays with our kids, I found out they had had a huge labor issue. They had threatened their workers. They, they were fined a half a million dollars.

[00:24:42] they did all these cheating. We haven’t gone back. It’s very easy. I still don’t have a good waffle place, but it’s still very easy.

[00:24:50] Sandie Morgan: Oh, that’s, that’s good.

[00:24:52] That’s good. So when I’m out in the community and I want to

[00:24:58] do a better job of, for instance, our faith communities, you mentioned mosques and synagogues and churches. What is the kind of information we can give them? I had this conversation yesterday with someone with some influence in their faith community.

[00:25:18] It’s like, but what do I tell them? I mean, your class is eight weeks long they want like an eight minute version.

[00:25:27] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Right. You know, I think part of it is treatment. If people are being treated well in a business, when you walk in, if the employees are being treated respectfully, if management is standing up for the employees, if you see management coming up and saying it’s your break time, I mean it, it sounds really silly.

[00:25:46] But you know, we have people who work, who report to us working 12, 16, 16 hours and no breaks. Like somebody noticed that. Okay. So that’s part of it. Just we know what kindness versus niceness looks like. Nice is what they show to the customer. Kindness is what they show to their employees, right?

[00:26:06] So kindness.so there’s that. one of the issues I’m facing is I’m, I’m heading two task forces, around the fires. One, the, I call them the Rebuild LA task forces.

[00:26:17] One of them is for building fraud. But the other one is for labor exploitation because we know that laborers in disaster areas are, there’s up to a 70% chance that they will be, exploited for their work and a 30% chance that they will be, uh, that there’s trafficking involved. Okay? So that’s huge. If you are getting a contract done on your house and somebody comes in with a much lower bid than everybody else, you gotta ask yourself why?

[00:26:46] Because. The wood is gonna be the same for everybody. the nails are gonna be the same for everybody. What is the variable? The variable’s gonna be the workers, and so you can ask them, can I see your workman’s comp certificate? Can you know? How do you pay your people? You know what? What is the pay rate you give your workers or your subcontractors, or what do you require from them?

[00:27:10] We may pay more. Upfront, but that’s where we get back to the moral thing. We know that our houses aren’t built on the back of somebody who has been mistreated.

[00:27:21] Sandie Morgan: That is a great. Way to approach this understanding that it’s actually does come back on us as consumers to ask those questions. We do have responsibility in the story to be wise stewards of of our resources. I often go back to when I first started working in this space and someone explained to me the reason why they were buying a product that I proved to them was being produced by slave labor.

[00:27:58] I. In another country and they said to me, well, we have a very small budget and I’m trying to practice good stewardship. And my response was, is it good stewardship if we save money, buta parent in really dire circumstances, can’t afford to buy the books for his son to go to school or the shoes for his daughter to walk the mile to school. It’s better stewardship to invest in people rather than things. So I

[00:28:38] Ryann Gerber Jorban: that.

[00:28:39] Sandie Morgan: Um, if we could go on and on and we will have another conversation. I am sure. I love being part of the labor trafficking subcommittee. I often feel like I have nothing to contribute because I’m not law enforcement, I’m not an attorney.

[00:28:56] And yet at the same time, what you are talking about in these closing moments of today’s episode. Is how important a community is around people and we can all do something there.

[00:29:12] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Absolutely. And I, I, I have to disagree with your general premise that you do not add. Um, you are bringing in. Students who think that they want one thing and are learning that what they are experiencing in the world is very different from what other kids their ages are experiencing. And I, I suspect that if I know you, you do it very subtly.

[00:29:35] You don’t hit ’em over the head with it, you just let them see. What the realities are. And I, I, I’m guessing that your students at the beginning and at the end have very different viewpoints of what they are experiencing. And it’s so important, especially when we’re talking about justice programs. When we talk about criminal justice, we tend to focus on the criminal, and not the justice.

[00:29:59] And the justice isn’t just for the criminal. In fact, it shouldn’t be. It should be for the entire community. We should find just. Outcomes for those who are involved, whether they are the criminal ’cause. I am a big believer in the Constitution and, and all of the, and them having their full rights and again, respect even for what they have done wrong, but also justice for those who have been caught in this and have no choice.

[00:30:27] whether it’s through, forced criminality or being a victim of,you know, a criminal, we need to make sure that we recognize that there’s two sides to that phrase, and I think you do an excellent job of showing both sides of that, that the criminal needs to have their justice, but also the victim does as well.

[00:30:50] And we can do both of those very easily in our system.

[00:30:53] Sandie Morgan: And we can do it together. Thank you so much, Ryann, for being on our podcast today. Oh.

[00:30:59] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Oh, I loved it. Thank you for having me.

[00:31:02] Thank you so much, Ryann, for sharing your insights and expertise with us. Listeners, if you’re interested in hearing more from Ryann, including her impactful presentation at Ensure Justice, we included the YouTube link in the show [email protected].

[00:31:24] If you haven’t visited our site before, be sure to subscribe so you can stay up to date. With all the important information we share, we’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from today’s conversation, invite them to subscribe and join us in learning how to.

[00:31:47] Better protect our communities. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay up to date. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

Commissioner Vicki Reed joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the intersection of juvenile justice and child welfare, highlighting the importance of collaboration, care, and community in supporting vulnerable youth and preventing their exploitation.

Vicki Reed has dedicated her career to child welfare and juvenile justice, with over two decades of experience working with system-involved youth. She holds a degree in law enforcement and a master’s in criminal justice, and has been a strong advocate for vulnerable children in both public and private sectors. Vicki has served as a juvenile probation officer, the director of a youth-serving agency, and has helped shape state-level training for child welfare workers in Kentucky. Beyond her advocacy and service as Juvenile Justice Commissioner of Kentucky, she is also an accomplished author. In her previous appearance on this podcast (episode 246), Vicki discussed her novel The Car Thief. In this episode, she shares insights from her latest novel, Sleight of Hand, which also draws from her extensive experience working with youth.

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice, here in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking.

[00:00:22] Today I’m thrilled to welcome back Commissioner Vicki Reed. To the show, Vicki has dedicated her career to child welfare and juvenile justice, with over two decades of experience working with system involved youth. She holds a degree in law enforcement and a master’s in criminal justice and has been a strong advocate.

[00:00:48] For vulnerable children in both public and private sectors. She has served as a juvenile probation officer, the director of a youth serving agency, and helped shape state level training for child welfare workers in Kentucky beyond her advocacy.

[00:01:11] Her service as Juvenile Justice Commissioner of Kentucky. Vicki is also an accomplished author. In her last episode on the podcast number 246, we talked about her novel Car Thief. If you haven’t listened to that episode. I encourage you to check it out because today we’re diving into her latest novel Sleight of hand, which also draws from her extensive experience

[00:01:47] Well, commissioner Vicki Reed, it is a delight to have you back on the ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

[00:01:55] Vicki: And I’m delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:58] Sandie: Since we talked the first time in episode 2 46 about your book, the Car Thief, and what we learned there about juvenile justice. You’ve written another book you’ve served as. The Kentucky Commissioner of Juvenile Justice, and I’m excited to ask you some questions today about your experience. first of all, I wanna know why you decided to come out of retirement and become the commissioner. Well,

[00:02:32] Vicki: an interesting story because probably nobody was more surprised than I was. I had been retired for a number of years and was really enjoying. consulting and writing and, and speaking and just having my own time to do things. But, when the position came open, I just really was sort of a calling to, to be able to take the, the top position and I’d worked in the agency before, underneath.

[00:02:55] And so to be able to have that, that top position and do all the things that I had always. Wanted to see done was just too good an opportunity to, to pass up. and so it was a, it was a wonderful experience. It was difficult in many ways. And I did learn that you can’t always do what you wanna do because you run into, uh, many issues.

[00:03:14] And one of the big problems right now across the entire nation, maybe the entire world. is it’s very difficult to get staff now so that if you don’t have staff that really sort of inhibits how much programming you can do and how much counseling you can do.

[00:03:27] So, it, it was an interesting experience and I promised to do it through, through the end of one term and I did. And so I’ve retired again and gone back and that’s when I finished, the second book and now I’m doing some consulting work with the National Partnership for Juvenile Services.

[00:03:41] Sandie: So let’s talk about the difference between juvenile justice and criminal justice, adults and youth. What are the different goals?

[00:03:52] Vicki: Well with adult corrections, you know, the, one of the primary things, of course, is public safety, and it’s not that juvenile justice doesn’t have that as well, but there’s a certain, punitive, point with adult corrections that we try to avoid. With, with juvenile. And one of the reasons is that it doesn’t work.

[00:04:11] Uh, we’ve seen that, you know, do you remember all the bootcamp hysteria? Everybody was having bootcamps. Oh, boot, straighten up fly rights and discipline. We’ll put that kid, they’ll learn that, you know, whatever. And then they did the studies and the recidivism rate was out the roof. It was like 80 to 90% scared straight, a complete failure.

[00:04:29] It, all these things that feel good and sound good to folks, but actually when they do the studies. Just don’t work. So what we do know is the more rehabilitative, you know, mental health counseling, pro-social activities, resources, a good education. And the other thing with the kids is if you have a, a 17, 16, 17-year-old who.

[00:04:50] Ends into a life of crime and does it for the next 40, 50, 60 years. You’re spending millions and millions of dollars on that individual. Where if we can, you know, get them going right in, in their teenage years and they can go on and graduate, they get a job, they, whatever, they become a functioning part of our society.

[00:05:09] everybody wins.

[00:05:11] Sandie: That’s a good point. This is a a smart fiscal decision too,

[00:05:16] Vicki: If you wanna look at it just in the hard cold facts that that alone.

[00:05:21] Sandie: But in reality, these. Are young people and they’re valuable and we’re not going, they’re not going to become throwaways, which, I’ve talked to kids who feel like they are throwaways. So let’s talk about the difference between your two books, because they’re a great way to.

[00:05:45] Begin to understand how we take care of kids with special circumstances. They may be living in an abusive environment, a neglect environment, which is abusive, and for their safety for their. Health, they are taken out of the home. So first, usually we see they go into child welfare and are presumably then given a placement in foster care.

[00:06:21] but the juvenile justice is the side where you did all of your work. So your first book that we interviewed you on back in episode number 2 46 was about your side of the house, the juvenile justice, and we met. Kelly and tell us a little bit about Kelly’s background that made him such a great way to teach us about the resources available through juvenile justice

[00:06:53] Vicki: Right. And that was the McCarthy ifand this, this, I, I decided to, and really the impetus for this was I was gonna write a nonfiction book about juvenile justice and I just couldn’t get it going. And I thought, well, what if I took a hypothetical kid and just took him through the system in a typical manner that kids do, where a lot of them.

[00:07:11] Start with child welfare issues and then come into juvenile justice and in Kelly’s case, even beyond. So, that, that was just kind of the whole thing where he was, you know, through the death of a family member, entered care and then, that didn’t work out well. And, you know, he took to the road, ran off, uh, got involved because he was stealing to live into juvenile justice.

[00:07:33] And then again, the theme with both of these books is. The books aren’t just about the kid, they’re about the adults. that impact. And it was not for a few very caring adults, the story could have turned out much different. And so the next book, sleigh of Hand, the one that just, just came out with the card on it.

[00:07:52] And I have to tell you from my book launch, we had cupcakes with edible rice cards tucked in

[00:07:57] Sandie: Oh my goodness. Oh

[00:07:59] Vicki: the kids, read them. They weren’t very TAs, I don’t think. But it, it was a, we had the whole casino thing going

[00:08:03] Sandie: So, before we talk about the book and the story of Alex in your second book, tell me how you chose to use a deck of cards in a book.

[00:08:18] Vicki: Well, and when I was in college, I took a recreation class because it was at, you know how college is with one of those times that you can fill in a nice class thing? And each week we had a different thing. We played pool One week, we did sports things one week. And one week we did magic tricks.

[00:08:34] And I was introduced to a ALI card, and you can look on Amazon for about seven bucks. You can get you a deck. And, uh, this, this is a special deck where if you flip it one way, you see all of like the ace of diamonds and you flip it the other way, it looks like normal cards. Uh, it’s because of the way they’re shaved.

[00:08:51] So anyway, I had that deck of cards and I had. Had in my purse, and I was a probation officer and I had a, a new probation officer. I had this kid who came in and, I mean, he was just like, you know, muttering wouldn’t talk, wouldn’t look at me. I was getting absolutely nowhere and out of desperation, I yanked that card thing out.

[00:09:09] I said, you wanna see a card trick? And just said, here, stick your finger in there. And so I did the card trick and he was just amazed. I mean, all of a sudden he was looking right at me like I was some sort of. You know, ’cause after he pulled out four or five asy diamonds out of the same deck and I kept showing him their regular, he thought I was really some magical person.

[00:09:26] And I have used those cards for, for 50 years out of all the things I learned in college, that was the most useful.

[00:09:31] Sandie: My goodness. Okay, so, so you share that trick at the beginning of this second book. So the first book was framed by our juvenile justice system. Now our. Star in sleigh of hand is in child welfare, and it’s very clear that this young boy is close to crossing over into territory that will end up putting him into juvenile justice.

[00:10:07] And so with 64 placements finding. A foster care home that is going to be sustainable seems impossible. when I read in the first chapter, 64 placements, I thought, what, so tell me what you know about placements.

[00:10:32] Vicki: well it’s, it’s interesting because, you know, usually placements for younger kids are fairly easily done. Uh, and I knew do know that child welfare. Through the pandemic also had issues with having enough foster homes, and that’s always a, an issue, but it’s obviously the more difficult a kid gets, the harder it’s going to be to find a foster care placement for them and.

[00:10:53] Sandie: you

[00:10:53] Vicki: We had kids from that we would offer to, not even just foster care, but group homes, residential care, children’s homes, you know, the Green Valley, blah, blah, blah, and all that. And some of them would charge a thousand dollars a day and we would refer a kid and they wouldn’t take them, for even a thousand dollars a day.

[00:11:11] Sandie: stop there. A thousand dollars a day.

[00:11:15] Vicki: Yes,

[00:11:16] Sandie: So, so, okay, so I’m gonna be your average reader and tell you some of the things I thought when I started reading this, 64 placements. First thing popped in my mind is, what is wrong with this kid? What? What do you say to me?

[00:11:34] Vicki: Right. Well, and I think anybody would think that, well, this must be a really horrible, awful kid who’s gone through 64 placements, and I won’t, put it on rose colored glasses. A lot of times it is. Any kid who’s had 64 placements is more than likely having some issues. But the thing is, it’s like, is it.

[00:11:52] The kid that’s caused the 64 placements, or is it the 64 placements that’s messing up the kid? Because just like in Alex, a lot of times he moves from foster homes that have no, no reason, that of fault of his own. You know, his one of, one of his favorite foster homes, they’re moving to California and they don’t take him with him.

[00:12:12] Just because, and we, we’ve had instances where foster parents will say, well, I’ll take a, a youth from the, school age from six to 12, and on the kid’s 13th birthday, they say they’re no longer in our age range. Take ’em out.

[00:12:24] Sandie: Wow. So.

[00:12:26] Vicki: it could be a, a number of different things.

[00:12:28] Sandie: things. So one of the things that I enjoyed as I was reading is it felt like I knew what Alex was thinking when he said something. I found out why he said it.

[00:12:42] That changed my attitude towards him. And the reason I think this book is great for students thinking about going into juvenile justice or child welfare. Is because you weave in the experts as you help us experience what the child is saying and why they’re saying it. Can you give me an example of an expert that you wove into the story?

[00:13:13] Vicki: Well, I’m a, I’m a big fan of Charlie Apple. Stein who was, helped her with my first book, who wrote No Bad kids.com, or that’s his website. And the book was No Bad Kids. and so I’ve used some of his techniques through the years and he and I got to be buddies. And so, I said, I’m, I’m gonna use some of these in your book.

[00:13:30] And he was like, oh, that, well, that’s fine. And one, one of my favorite things when, when Sam, the caseworker first meets with Alex, and,it just shows you the difference that. Sam Smart and knows what he’s doing. And he says to him, he goes, wow, 64 placements. That’s quite a number. How did you manage that? And the kid looks at him and says, no one tells me what to do. And Sam said is thinking in his head what I call automatic adult responses. Well, that’s the kind of thing that got you into a place like this. Well, I’m telling you what to do. Well, that you know that you’ll never get anywhere in life with an attitude.

[00:14:04] And do you think that kid hadn’t heard those kind of things all his life and he’s just. Another adult, whatever. But Sam is smart, and so Sam looks at him and he says, ah, an independent thinker. I get that. And the kid looks at him like, oh, this cat’s different.

[00:14:23] Sandie: So we’re learning how to change our attitude while we’re reading the book. Instead of saying what we wanna say, our automatic adult response, we actually follow the guidance of what’s his name again? We’re gonna put a link.

[00:14:41] Vicki: Charlie Stein.

[00:14:42] Sandie: Charlie Stein, and wow, what a way to learn because now I am waiting to see if it works.

[00:14:49] And it did. It did. Giving a child some control is like basic parenting. I remember when my daughter was two years old and I said, put your shoes on. We’re going, and she said, no. I was like, oh, wait a second. I stopped and then I said, do you wanna put your left shoe on first or your right shoe on first?

[00:15:12] Just giving kids an opportunity to make a choice. It put some of the power back in their hands. Um, when, when. Alex finally gets into a placement. One of the things that I learned from reading this story is how important it was to have a community around that child. Can you talk about the key people that helped that placement be sustainable?

[00:15:46] And it was his last placement. Oops, that was a spoiler alert. I’m sorry.

[00:15:51] Vicki: okay. That’s okay. That’s okay with I, I tend to have happy endings. I’ll just put it, that will really spoil there. Um, well, and that’s one of the things that’s, that’s very important that between looking at. Traditional normal foster care and therapeutic foster care is that you need to think of it more as a residential placement in a home.

[00:16:12] and you, and like Alex probably wouldn’t have made it in that foster home with Matt, the foster parent, if he didn’t have Sam helping them out and other people. So, you know, one of my, one of my gripes on this is we might pay a residential center a thousand dollars a day for a kid, but we pay foster care.

[00:16:31] $68 or whatever. And some of the foster placements that we use where we had success, we had a backup foster parent. We had aides that came in and took the kid out all day and tired ’em out. We had special educational programs. We, we could take that same money. And hopefully much less because you’re not having to pay room board, you know, the expensive staffing type things and surround that kid with services that, the wraparound approach that, that they do sometimes also nicely with kids who are still home and you, you basically, what does this kid need?

[00:17:03] And it might be some pro-social activities, things to keep ’em busy and you know, mental health counseling. So if we wrap those services around a kid, we’re gonna see a lot better. I just have to read one little thing. It’s like. I, I didn’t even know this one, right? There’s an epigraph, that’s what it’s called when you see a poem in the first book.

[00:17:20] And, and this one, this thing was on the his, on my office for 50 years and I got to put it in the book and it’s, he drew a circle that shut me out. Heretic, rebel, a thing to fly, but love and I had the wit to win. We drew a circle that took him in. And so that was sort of the whole thing for the book, is that we had these adults who come to, you know, assist this kid.

[00:17:42] Sandie: Wow. That’s so good. So let’s talk just for a second about pro-social activities. That’s a nice word. I like it. I’m gonna write it down. What does it mean

[00:17:56] Vicki: It means that you can’t just say no. You have to have give thing kids something to say yes to. So you just can’t say, don’t use drugs, don’t do this, don’t whatever. You know, what am I supposed to sit in my house? And a lot of times what I have learned from my time in detention, we, one of the detention centers here in Lexington is not very far from the Kentucky Horse Park.

[00:18:16] Folks know us. People out of the country, they know Lexington, Kentucky, world famous for our horses. And most of those kids have never even been there. It’s two miles away. And I’m always amazed at the things they haven’t done. They’ve never. Been on the Easter egg hunt. They’ve never flown a kite. They’ve never walked in a creek.

[00:18:33] They never saw pet a horse. They have lived such confined lives, and so one of the things is just exposing kids to the good things that are out there and giving them things that they. Can enjoy and do, and that will help build competencies and competency build self-worth. Self-worth means you’re more likely to be successful.

[00:18:55] So, you know, it’s great to have the kid in counseling, but maybe instead of three times a week going to counseling, two times a week they go to counseling and one time they go, uh, a music lesson or an art therapy class.

[00:19:06] Sandie: So I’m gonna start a drive to collect used saxophones and give them out at juvenile detention centers. That sounds like fun.

[00:19:16] Uh, there’s lots of research that shows that developmental assets reduce some of the. Issues that we call behavior problems just because the kids have something positive to do. So pro-social activities, put that in with your deck of cards for your tricks to help young people become stronger. Um, so when I’m thinking about some of the.

[00:19:50] Experts that you wove into the story and we just talked about,uh, why can’t I remember his name, apple.are there some others that you helped us, begin to experience so we could understand Alex’s way of thinking and why the adults around him didn’t understand why he did things?

[00:20:19] Vicki: I mean, there’s a number of I, some of the names are just not gonna come to me. It’s like sand and the reindeer. I know ’em when you say ’em,

[00:20:25] Sandie: Uhhuh

[00:20:25] Vicki: think of them all off the top of my head. But there’s a number of, of really good folks, and Rick Miller is another one who did Kids at Hope. which is one thing he was talking about that that.

[00:20:35] Hope drives humanity that these kids have to have a reason. If you think nothing’s ever gonna get better, then there’s no reason to try. and so this was sort of with Alex’s thing, he was like, just, you know, he’d shut down. I don’t, I’m not gonna care, I’m not gonna do anything they want me to do. And that, that’s one of the things we go back to the pro-social or, you know, protective factors we, we talk about with kids is that sometimes you just sort of have to rewire the brain and that.

[00:21:01] Positive experiences help undo some of those adverse childhood experiences, those ACEs that people talk about so much. So that’s another thing to keep in mind with the kid is that, they need to, uh, and the, oh, I’m trying to think of his name, Richard something, the big guru on violence with kids.

[00:21:19] He said, if you show me a kid at a school and he has one adult in that school who thinks that kid is great, he’s not gonna be a problem. It’s the kid who don’t have anybody that you have to worry about.

[00:21:30] Sandie: So commissioner, the number of placements that your hero in the second book Alex had was 64. What do statistics tell us about the hope he had for his future year?

[00:21:50] Vicki: Well, I think obviously after that, you know, you’re sort of not wanted obviously, and. One of the statistics that you know, he’d shared before was that kids who have five or more placements are 90% likely to enter the juvenile justice system. And there’s several studies that have been done that one I think was put out by Georgetown Law, which is a horrifying statistic to think that if you’ve moved five different times in foster care, that you’re almost certain to go to juvenile justice.

[00:22:18] And so one of my things is, well, if we know this, why don’t we take that information and. Flag it. After two or three placements, this kid gets a mark in his file and everybody in the office around child welfare or whatever, sits down and says, we, we need to stop this. We need to see what we need to do to make sure that this kid isn’t going on to four or 5, 6, 7 placements and, and on.

[00:22:41] And this also came up from Kentucky. There was a piece of legislation about from the schools and uh, because the superintendents had so many kids during pandemic and with the opioid epidemic. In their school systems and they said, we have these kids and they’re just changing schools all the time. They change a plate.

[00:22:58] We had a seventh grade boy who’d been in four different middle schools and that year’s only half over. and they get pulled out for foster care appointments. They get pulled out for court and they’re not, they’re getting very poor education. So that’s another way, you know, the, the good education that we can get kids that they don’t fall behind, you know, do they need tutoring to catch up?

[00:23:17] Uh, can we do some special things? Can we, can we do things for these kids that we do for our own? Because you and I put our kids in music lessons and sports and we take ’em on family vacations and stuff, and we need to do that same thing for these kids.

[00:23:31] Sandie: if we move, they move with us. So, um, the connection here with our, our kids who are more vulnerable to being commercially sexually exploited or recruited into labor trafficking, Is born out by other interviews that I’ve done with survivors.

[00:23:52] Most recently I interviewed, a gal, Alia, in episode number 3 38, and she had been in the system. That’s how we talked about it. And she had recommendations about how we can do a better job before she ended up in juvenile justice. And I think you’ve got some recommendations because these kids, we call them dual system kids, they were in child welfare.

[00:24:29] Now they. They became system involved with juvenile justice, which changes the expectations for their future. They get with juvenile justice, they have access to rehabilitation, but they have to make some choices to actually do that work. And they need people around them like your character did, like Matt and Sam and others in the community.

[00:24:57] So let’s talk about the recommendations.

[00:25:00] Vicki: One of them, just before I forget it because you’d mentioned the human trafficking. Uh,one thing we know is kids do best in families. So I’m not saying. There aren’t any kids that should go to what we call congregate care, which is group homes and the residential, but

[00:25:15] Sandie: Congregate care should be for just the youth. They really need those complex services that just cannot be handled in a family situation. And there are some kids like that, but for most kids, even some that you might think, are family, can’t be successful like Alex can be.

[00:25:33] Vicki: And one of the reasons that it’s best to be in families is. We were talking about human trafficking is that, you know, there are traffickers out there. They know where that group home is, and they know those kids that come and go, and they target them for a couple of reasons. One is because they know probably they don’t have much of anybody that cares about ’em because they’re in a group home.

[00:25:52] Because they’ve had trauma and so many vulnerabilities, they, they target them. So that’s one reason among many that we ought to keep kids in a family situation as as much as possible. But the other thing is, is just to realize we shouldn’t silo these kids into different organizations. You’ve got child welfare, you’ve got juvenile justice, and the one we didn’t talk about was mental health.

[00:26:14] And I know you have some background in that, uh, type thing. And so it’s. You know, it’s the same kids. So you have a girl who is either being sexually abused or feels like she’s at risk of it. Okay? She’s a child welfare kid right now. She runs away because she’s scared that, that somebody, either they’re doing something to her or they’re about to.

[00:26:34] So now she’s a status offender. She can be charged as a status offender,

[00:26:37] Sandie: What? What’s a status offender? Is that like you get in trouble for something you haven’t done yet?

[00:26:43] Vicki: It is what you can do if you’re a kid. That’s an offense. That’s not an offense for an adult. So if you don’t go to school, you can be charged with truancy. I, as an adult, if I don’t go to work, they don’t charge me with, you know, you didn’t go to work and lock me up. Uh, run beyond control of your parents and in different states, call ’em, you know, children in need of services and.

[00:27:02] Persons in need of services and that sort of thing, but they’re, they’re kids that you can oftentimes put in detention or in some other long-term care because of that status. So, you know, so you have a girl who runs away now she’s in that different category, and then so she steals to eat and she gets picked up for shoplifting.

[00:27:21] Well now she’s a juvenile justice, but she’s got mental health kids. She’s a mental health kid. It’s all the same kid. They all have the same needs, and so there needs to be a whole lot more collaboration. and some states do that very well, and some do not. Some have it very divided. Once they’re yours, they’re yours, and there’s a lot of finger pointing.

[00:27:39] I don’t want ’em, you take ’em and you spend your money on ’em. Uh uh. So we need to have, uh, Indiana does a good job. They have a, a particular, they have a whole dual status team where if they’re involved in both agencies by law, they have to meet. And work for the best interest of that kid. So there, there needs to be a lot more collaboration among them.

[00:27:59] Sandie: I love that and, and you’ve modeled that in your transition from being more on the criminal justice side of things and juvenile justice probation officer, and then to becoming a commissioner and making. Your dreams for change start to at least make progress. So as we wind up here, what is your call to action to people who read one or both of your books?

[00:28:32] Why should they read the book and what should they do afterwards?

[00:28:38] Vicki: One of the reasons I wrote these books as I hope people in the biz. Would enjoy them, but it was really more for the general public because people don’t know. And the biggest thing is to become informed. People just, you know, they don’t know. They think boot camps are great or they just think, you know, all foster care is either girly great or really bad.

[00:28:57] so this is, this is a way to take people. And because everything is confidential, you can’t get behind those doors as a. Person just on the street. So this is a way to just expose people and have them understand who these kids are. And if you can help in some way, being a foster parent’s, great.

[00:29:14] I that would be wonderful. And I realize that’s not for everybody, but you can do other things. You can, I’ve got my casa blanket back here, uh, here, here in America anyway, you can become a court advocate where you’re assigned to a kid and you become their advocate as they go through the system. If nothing else, you can help donate to foster care organizations.

[00:29:33] So they do have those clarinets and saxophones and can afford to pay for music lessons and art lessons and so forth. So there’s many ways that that people can help.

[00:29:44] Sandie: I love it. Commissioner Vicki Reed, I am sure you’re gonna write a third book and I will be looking forward to that episode. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank

[00:29:57] Vicki: Thank you very much.

[00:29:59] Sandie: Vicki, thank you so much for joining us again and for sharing your experience and powerful storytelling. Listeners, I encourage you to take the next step by visiting our [email protected]. If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss any of the important conversations.

[00:30:22] We are having. We’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from today’s episode, whether they’re working in child welfare education, or simply care about supporting youth in their communities, invite them to subscribe and join our. Podcast community. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay updated on future episodes and resources.

[00:30:56] Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

[00:30:59]

Andrea Foster joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how integrating health services within school systems enhances student well-being and functions as a vital strategy to prevent human trafficking.

Andrea Foster is currently the administrator of Integrated Health within Student Services for the Orange County Department of Education. She provides supportive services and resources to promote healthy environments for over 400,000 students and their families across the county. She wants students to be able to access their education and become productive, successful adults. She has 24 years of school nursing experience across multiple settings and was recently a guest speaker at the annual Ensure Justice Conference.

[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking here at the Global Center for Women in Justice Vanguard University. This is episode number 343, integrating Health Services in school strategies to keep students safe.

Andrea Foster is currently the administrator of Integrated Health within the student services for the division of the Orange County Department of Education. She provides supportive services and resources to promote healthy environments to over 400,000 students and their families across.

County. She wants students to be able to access their education and become productive, successful adults. She has 24 years of school nursing experience across [00:02:00] multiple settings, and recently she was a guest speaker at our. Annual Ensure Justice Conference, and I think one of the things I loved, Andrea, was how you advocated for where the kids are and what they need.

So welcome to the show.

Thank you Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

so let’s start off first with a little bit of an understanding of where your role in Department of Education fits in this concept of MTSS. What is MTSS and why is it such a big deal here in California?

[00:02:46] Andrea Foster: So MTSS stands for the multi-tiered system of support, and this is a tiered system, that we can utilize or a framework. That we can utilize to support students wherever they’re at, and [00:03:00] whatever their needs are. So, tier one is our supports that we provide to all students. these are things like preventative measures.

Other supports like vision and hearing screenings. on the academic side, it’s gonna be your normal academic, accommodations that are made during the school day. Once you get into tier two, this tier is for a select group of students, so students who need some additional support. Typically for support services personnel, these are kids that have been identified as needing some additional support.

And usually those supports are provided in a group setting. And so again, small number of students, isn’t, isn’t a accommodation that is applied to all students, and typically provided in a group setting. these may include, Small group settings

such as maybe a counseling session, with a group talking specifically [00:04:00] about an issue that’s on campus or on the academic side.

It could be a small group session, small, to provide additional support with reading or additional supports with math. So it MTSS really accommodates kids. In every path that they’re on, in the setting and really covers them as a whole child. When we’re looking at tier three interventions, those interventions are really very specific and individualized to a student.

So, if you’re looking at health in particular, these are gonna be kiddos who have five oh fours or who have IEPs or who have specialized healthcare plans, for chronic medical conditions. On the academic side, you would see again, IEPs with academic accommodations or five oh fours with accommodations, to support these kids so that they can, be successful.

[00:04:51] Sandie Morgan: I love that. And so now I’m looking at your job title and this word that’s in it, [00:05:00] integrated student wellness. What does that mean in your everyday administration?

[00:05:08] Andrea Foster: So I, when I am doing programming or providing professional development, or really working collaboratively across Orange County, I’m looking at how health integrates with the whole child. you know, you can’t just look at the child in, in one, domain. You know, we talk about Maslow’s hierarchy of need, and you have to meet all of those needs before.

Anyone can be successful and actualize, their potential. And so, for integrated health, I’m really looking at where health is a cross section with all of these other components. So whether it be mental health, whether it be housing, whether it be, other things that are going on in their lives, as well as their academic status.

So how do we integrate all of this for the success of the student?

[00:05:58] Sandie Morgan: and when we’re [00:06:00] looking at different school environments and trying to integrate this when they have challenges at home? I think we put a lot of our hope in the ability of our schools to become a safety net, and our Ensure Justice Conference was titled This Year, safety Nets.

We’re thinking about online safety to some extent, but just community safety nets. How can we be more.I guess my question is how can we help in those integrated ’cause I think the community has to know how to be part of that MTSS model.

[00:06:48] Andrea Foster: So I would say, just being aware of that multi-tiered system of support and how school districts utilize that to support their students. So really being able to understand the [00:07:00] language. you wouldn’t necessarily, as a community member or a family member need to know what falls within each of those.

Just knowing that that is. What school districts use as a framework and being able to ask, you know, how can the multi-tiered system of support support my student who is experiencing. Fill in the blank. experiencing homelessness, experiencing, a chronic health condition, experiencing academic needs, experiencing trafficking.

so just really understanding the language so that, so that they know what to ask for when they’re at a school site.

[00:07:40] Sandie Morgan: So when I’m thinking about what that looks like, that integrated support, I am thinking about it from a pediatric nursing background and all of my years of communication with school nurses, and there is a [00:08:00] major focus, like in that first column in.

MTSS of prevention that, I mean hearing and brushing your teeth and all of those kinds of things. Where does this aspect of prevention fall When we’re trying to help our kids who need a safety net and the school is a key part of that.

[00:08:26] Andrea Foster: So I think it’s multi-tiered here. So the first I would say is really being able to identify, and monitor for red flags. And so that’s really important. and part of that is. For school district is really providing that training so that personnel are aware of what those red flags are and understand what it looks like to identify patterns, and then be able to build a safety net, of trusting relationships.

You know, creating a, a calm environment, a [00:09:00] non-judgmental space where students feel comfortable to be able to share information, whether that’s in the health office, their. Counselor, their social worker, their teacher, really everyone on a school site is responsible, for creating this safe space and building these relationships with students.

and then using open-ended, language with students, which gives them an opportunity to think, and to provide their own language back. And then checking in with kids regularly to make sure that they have the supports that they need and, if something comes up, they’re, they have the time and the space to be able to share.

[00:09:40] Sandie Morgan: let’s. Let’s do kind of a role play here. I am a kid who chronically comes to school, tardy late. when I was going to school, that meant I would get like a red mark next to my name. What would you be [00:10:00] training the person in the front office to do instead?

[00:10:04] Andrea Foster: So really I would be training the health office because that’s my role. but I would say for. For all staff and, and this has kind of changed in the last couple years, is really again, with the family members, creating that safe space, letting them know that we care about the students and that we want the students to be there and that we’re there to support them, whatever they’re going through.

whether it’s the students or the families, you know, providing resources, so that the student is able to come to school and feel supported enough that they can, access their education and so that families feel like their students are safe at school, and getting what they need.

[00:10:48] Sandie Morgan: I love that because I know, sometimes. If you think about a nine or 10-year-old, who’s late, they aren’t the ones responsible for getting out the [00:11:00] door, finding transportation, and so something else is going on. And so I wanna find a way for that child not to start late in the classroom already feeling chastised and in trouble and raising the.

Anxiety bar that reduces their ability to learn. So thinking through some of those things, I think those are part of the red flags that we’re working on. And I know in the health office, when I was in your training, I was. Very impressed with how many protocols are already in place when kids come in, and those protocols are designed for making sure kids feel supported so that they can access their education.

I think that’s kind of a [00:12:00] new, not. I, I wouldn’t say it’s a new, I think it’s an emerging best practice that we’re not here to, chastise a kid who really may not have any control. We want them to be successful learners. What would you recommend to parents who are struggling and they. Drop their kids off.

What could a parent do to make that a smoother transition? Because maybe they’ve got health issues, they’ve got, they’re in a generation where they’re taking care of. Older adults in their family, their caregivers at both end, or they have a work where their schedule is very different than their kids’ school.

How can parents access help in that space?

[00:12:56] Andrea Foster: Well, I think there are a couple things. One, building a [00:13:00] positive relationship with your school system. uh,whether that’s your teacher, your child’s teacher, whether that’s the principal, whether it’s the worker in the health office, having someone who. You feel confident and confident in that can support you in some of this work.

And then, because they, they will also be providing resources to you when you need those resources. So being comfortable enough to, to ask the questions to those people. But I would also say, having a warm handoff. So if, if a student is really struggling on a particular day or there’s something going on at home. Parents don’t necessarily need to provide all of that information, but what would be helpful is providing even just a simple comment, maybe to the teacher or the principal, to handle that student with care that day. so that, if there’s something coming up that teacher knows that there’s something going on at [00:14:00] home, and they can provide some additional support.

Or if, there’s a test that day, for example, maybe that’s not the best day for that student to take a test. And so the teacher or the administrator really knowing or, or your support person really knowing, that that student needs some additional TLC that day sometimes is really beneficial.

[00:14:22] Sandie Morgan: I love that. Years ago at Ensure Justice, we focused on a program called Handle With Care, and you didn’t have to provide any background information. And then Orange County, we launched our own version, I think it’s called Focus, and the idea of focusing on the child, not what’s happening, but. Knowing that maybe they might have missed breakfast because of whatever happened in their community or in their home.

So that’s an an encouraging piece [00:15:00] of this integrated services to our kids. Let’s move over to talking about education as prevention and where do you see that in your work and in what parents can do to better support their kids? I.

[00:15:21] Andrea Foster: So I would say school nursing in particular does a lot of education in the health office, and a lot of preventative, health education, in regards to bicy ebi safety in regards to, Diabetic management in regards to chronic health conditions. marijuana use, you know, so there’s a lot of preventative education that occurs in the health office.

but it also occurs across the campus, you know, when. Students, are with an administrator. There may be some additional preventative, education that occurs when they’re in PE [00:16:00] class, when they’re in health class. they’re getting a lot of preventative information and that’s so vital, that they have the information so that when they are making decisions, that they’re making decisions, educated decisions.

[00:16:14] Sandie Morgan: And this kind of leads to the panel that you participated on at Ensure Justice. The title of that panel was connected and protected. The Role of Schools in Empowering Students for Digital Wellness. So here’s where. A lot of the work that I did as a pediatric nurse was hands-on, take their temperature, monitor them, deliver medicine, but digital wellness is in, in your space of integrated health.

So what does that look like in in schools?

[00:16:57] Andrea Foster: So everybody is responsible for [00:17:00] digital safety. this isn’t just a parental issue. we know that our kids are online. Much of the day, whether it’s for academics or whether it’s for entertainment. so in the, in the education set setting, it’s really important and incumbent on us to really provide the education of where the pitfalls lie.

how to prevent those pitfalls so students understand, why people would want their data. They understand.how to really look at what’s being asked and whether or not that that’s something that they should provide in any online component, as well as really starting to look at how much they are online and are there other opportunities.

You know that they can utilize their online platforms, but also utilize other opportunities in the classroom that [00:18:00] support each of those. And so just really taking a look at it. And then, you know, we talked a little bit about those red flags, you know, really looking at. Asking the students, what they’re working with and, and what online platforms are they utilizing because we are gonna start to see some of those patterns,specifically some of those patterns where we see kids who are on specific platforms and, that promote these unhealthy challenges, that students often find themselves in the midst of, and, you know, have health.

Have health outcomes that are not positive or have other things that happen in their lives because of those particular challenges. And so just really asking the question of those students, as well as providing that education of, of what’s really happening in the world and, and having a discussion about it.

[00:18:55] Sandie Morgan: wow and finding safe ways to have those conversations [00:19:00] is. The role of our educators in the classroom, and you, you already mentioned, are they using these devices for their academic journey or for entertainment? So when it’s part of their academics, taking it away.

Is not going to solve the problem and may actually limit, their empowerment. Now, you talked about unhealthy challenges. Let’s just talk about that in more plain language. What is that looking like in our schools today?

[00:19:38] Andrea Foster: So I would say probably one of the biggest ones that we, I think everybody heard about, was the, was it the Tide pods or it was the, pods that you put

[00:19:51] Sandie Morgan: yeah, Uhhuh.

[00:19:52] Andrea Foster: and, and kids were to challenging each other to consume those, which was creating a lot of health [00:20:00] issues. Which, you know, if you look at it from an academic standpoint, not only is it a health issue, but it keeps them outta school, which then becomes an academic issue as well.

but, some of these other challenges, um, there was one here just recently where, adults and, and. Children were challenging each other to run and jump on these really thin rails, and try to, to slide down these really thin rails, um, of which a lot of people broke bones, um, had traumatic head injuries.

again, you know, which prevents them from doing the other things in their life that they should be doing. So really helping students understand that these challenges really aren’t, A good, a good use of their time, and the safety hazards that go along with them.

[00:20:49] Sandie Morgan: And I don’t, I think so much when we talk about online safety, we’re thinking more about some, a child being groomed, and we’ve talked about that on this podcast a lot, and I’ll [00:21:00] put links to some of those. But this idea that physical safety can be compromised by online engagement is something we are not always paying a lot of attention to.

The, the other thing that you just mentioned that makes me kind of curious ’cause you said, and adults doing it too. I have this idea that we have put a lot of pressure on teachers, educators, Professionals in our education community to keep our kids safe online. And the kids are digital natives.

They’ve grown up. I have freshmen in my class right now who from the time they were in kindergarten, had a device in their hands in the classroom. And yet I want someone like you to be responsible for keeping all these kids safe. And every platform is a [00:22:00] new experience for us. We are asking. Adult professionals to add a new skillset, and I think one of the things that you’ve done in Orange County with the number of workshops for school professionals in integrated health is try to provide the resources to help.

That community come up to speed to be able to, respond appropriately. What’s your biggest challenge in that space?

[00:22:38] Andrea Foster: I think the biggest challenge is that technology is just moving so fast that it’s very difficult to keep up with what the next big trend is gonna be, and so. When you talk about providing preventative education,you’re really looking at how do we get the information to them before they [00:23:00] have the opportunity to access whatever we are trying to prevent.

And, in this space right now, it almost feels impossible. And, and I, I would say not only for educators, but for community members and our, Our legislatures and our families, you know, it, it’s just moving so, so fast that the next new thing is there before you even know it’s gonna be a problem.

[00:23:26] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And the quick response that seems like it would fix it is, let’s just take it all away. how effective do you see that as a strategy?

[00:23:41] Andrea Foster: So I don’t think it is a, I don’t think it’s a doable strategy. We have come to a point, where we are moving so fast in technology that it would almost be impossible to take it away. not to mention the fact that you talked about your freshmen who [00:24:00] are, are native to this world. it would be harmful to them.

As well as there is a lot of good that technology is bringing us. it’s decreasing some of the amount of the mundane and tedious things, that, that technology can take care of, which frees us up to do other things that are more important. it’s also the information age, you know, it’s not just all of the, YouTubes and tiktoks and, all of those platforms, it really is being utilized for education. And so to take it away, I, I don’t think, I don’t see that as an, as an option. not at this time. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:45] Sandie Morgan: I, yeah, I can’t imagine teaching. I do. I even do attendance. I. Online and it captures it, and then the registrar’s office has it. So I’m not filling out, forms, which means then [00:25:00] I have time to engage my students and talk about what’s happening in their lives. And, and I think that’s one of the things we have to be aware of is what is the trade off?

How am I using that to benefit my role as an educator? when we were talking about this on the panel about digital wellness, the idea of empowering the students, what are some tips for making sure that kids understand their ability to choose well?

[00:25:41] Andrea Foster: Well, I am a big proponent for teaching anyone to be a good advocate for themselves, whether we’re in a medical space, and they’re advocating for their own health, where whether we’re in the academic space and they’re advocating for whatever they need to [00:26:00] support them in their. Ability to be successful.

It’s the same thing with our media. Really giving them the information that they need, to make good decisions, but also giving them a voice so that they can advocate for themselves what’s working, what’s not working, and then again, creating that safe space where they have an opportunity to share, their advocacy for what they need.

[00:26:29] Sandie Morgan: so what would that look like for say, a fifth grader?

[00:26:34] Andrea Foster: So, what it could look like is if a fifth grader was feeling like, Maybe there’s something online that makes them uncomfortable or there’s someone online asking them for information that makes them uncomfortable, then they would have that space, safe space to be able to advocate for themselves, be able to ask questions about, I’m on [00:27:00] this particular platform and this is what I’m being asked.

I is, is this the right, is this appropriate? Or I’ve been playing this game and my PlayStation says that I need to give it access to my firewall, which would allow them to get in.into their system is, is that the right thing to do because it, you know, after what you’ve just taught me, maybe it’s not the right thing to do.

So really giving them an opportunity to ask those questions. and then maybe not in, maybe not giving them a direct answer, maybe showing them where they can find the answer and supporting them in looking that information up. So that really becomes that advocacy piece where they’re learning. they have the safe space, and they’re able to ask the questions.

[00:27:49] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And then they can take the next step instead of us being like the sheriff going around checking on everybody. I have this [00:28:00] sense that when kids learn to self-advocate, they also, in their little community can become a protective factor. Because they talk to their friends and they say, no, no, no.

You should not listen to that guy on your PlayStation. You need to block him. And the the, I think this has to carry over in homes as well. And the idea that you get to ask all those questions if something is considered. Something you can’t talk about, then we don’t empower our kids to respond and and be more self-reliant and confident in their online experience.

When we were at the conference, you talked about [00:29:00] how, An adult can be a protective factor. And I actually have a quote, you said, every child is one trusting adult away from fill in the blank. And online safety is one aspect. Some of these other things, that you’ve mentioned that result in physical.

Injuries are part of it, but that one, trusted adult. We have put a lot of burden on teachers and on parents, but not every kid has developed that relationship with, A teacher or they haven’t had a stable home life, they’ve had multiple placements in foster care. Tell me about your definition of a trusted adult.

[00:29:58] Andrea Foster: Well, I would say, first of all, [00:30:00] I borrowed that from the California Department of Education, so I wanna give them credit, for that statement. but a trusted adult is someone who gives a, a person, an individual, an opportunity, to be heard, an opportunity to have a voice, and feel like they have a safe space where they can utilize that voice.

And so. People who are around the students, if they can provide those opportunities for students, not only will they, give the student an opportunity to voice, whatever’s going on in their lives, but they also give ’em the opportunity to build a trusting relationship. and it’s interesting when you’re in education, sometimes you don’t.

You don’t know what happens to your students after they leave you, but there’s not a greater feeling of when they come back and they say, you know what? You made a difference in my life. And you don’t remember specifically what you [00:31:00] did other than you gave them an opportunity to, to have a voice and gave them a space where they could use it.

[00:31:07] Sandie Morgan: Wow, that’s so good. So, as we look at this idea of the community response to. Integrated health. Is there something that our community can contribute to their local school that will help improve the opportunities for kids to be safer online, to have healthier opportunities and be more supported in education?

[00:31:44] Andrea Foster: I would say be a part of your community, whether you are a community member, whether you’re a family member, whether you’re an agency that’s providing services, get involved. That’s really [00:32:00] what community schools have always been about, is bringing services to the school site to support students and their families.

And so understand what your board priorities are, understand where they’re spending their money. Um And get involved. Be a part of helping them determine where that money is being spent. Work at your school sites, volunteer at your school sites. understand what your board of education and what your school stands for.

What are their, what are their goals? What are their objectives? And then participate, in all of that.

[00:32:40] Sandie Morgan: We recently did an interview with a former DEA agent, and we talked about following the money, so I love that your advice is so practical. We talk about things at a, at a kind of 30,000 foot level, but. What [00:33:00] I heard from you when I participated on site in one of your workshops, what I heard from you in Ensure Justice and what I hear from today is that it is a community response and being a trusted adult.

Is part of making sure our kids are safe, whether they’re online or out in our communities, and I’m just grateful that we get to partner and keep partnering with our community, and the Department of Education. I encourage our listeners find out what’s going on in your department of education. I love the idea of.

School board meetings, I’d ask people, when is the last time that you went to your school board meeting? And I know people who have never been to a school board meeting, it’s a fun thing to get to do and they let [00:34:00] you ask questions and they appreciate parents and community leaders being involved as so think about those are such good recommendations.

Last word from you, Andrea.

[00:34:14] Andrea Foster: I would say just stay involved. working with schools is one of the best things that I have ever done. And, I would encourage all community members, stakeholder members, family members, get involved with your school setting. it really takes a village, and this is an amazing community, to partner with.

[00:34:32] Sandie Morgan: Thank you so much for being part of our ending Human Trafficking podcast. We wanna start right where the kids are in building strategies for prevention, and I wanna be one of those trusted adults to our kids. Thank you.

Andrea, it’s been such a pleasure having you with us.

Thank you for the important work you’re doing and for sharing [00:35:00] it with us and to our listeners. If you found this conversation impactful, don’t keep it to yourself. Share it with a friend, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss a new episode. Don’t forget to check out the show notes, helpful resources, and more on our website at endinghumantrafficking.org.

We’d also love to stay connected with you, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and help us grow this community committed to ending human trafficking. Thanks again for listening. Be ready for another episode in two weeks.

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