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In this deep-dive episode, Danny, Robin, and Chris discuss the differences and similarities of design systems at different stages of maturity, including ROI measurement; who should manage your design system, and how to create a balance of power between designers and developers working on your design system.

Robin Cannon is the Global Director of Design Systems, IBM iX at IBM. Having spent several years leading the development of IBM’s design system, Carbon, he’s now working on IBM iX’s design systems offering—and design operations in general—with clients and partners. You can find Robin on Twitter as @shinytoyrobots, and LinkedIn.

Danny Phillips is a Staff Engineer at Procore, former Group Engineering Manager, Design Systems. Over the past several years, he helped build their design system from the ground up and is now focused on building new ventures at Procore. You can find Danny on Twitter as @_dannyjphillips or LinkedIn.

Host: Chris Strahl is co-founder and CEO of Knapsack, host of @TheDSPod, DnD DM, and occasional river guide. You can find Chris on Twitter as @chrisstrahl and on LinkedIn.

Sponsor: Knapsack is a design system platform rooted in code for shipping consistent apps in half the time. Design once, build once, use everywhere. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

View the transcript for this episode here.