Dean Andrew McGowan joins us to further unpack shifting dynamics, changing landscapes, and the future after addressing the topic at the Episcopal Parish Network (EPN) conference. McGowan describes his observations of Australian secularization and how he sees similar dynamics arising in the United States. We talk about why church attendance is changing, the difference between hope and optimism, and consumer capitalism's effect on church dynamics. After a rich conversation, we play our signature game, Holy Cow!, and learn McGowan's opinion on THE best bread for the Eucharist.

See the EPN talk here: https://youtu.be/5MJmTGvn6y4?si=HyfwtXe_nPI0Nmc5

Hosts: Brandon Nappi and Hannah Black

Guest: Andrew McGowan

Production: Goodchild Media

Music: Wayfaring Stranger, Theodicy Jazz Collective

Art: E. Landino

Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast

berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast

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