Today we’re joined by returning guest Joshua Thayer, permaculture designer, author, and founder of Native Sun Gardens in California. Joshua has helped communities across the U.S. and abroad design food forests that restore ecology and produce abundance. His new book, California Food Forests: Feeding the Future, distills decades of hands-on design into practical steps anyone can use—no matter where they live.

Whether you're in a Mediterranean climate, drought-prone region, or temperate landscape, Joshua brings strategies to help you turn your yard, homestead, or urban lot into a resilient, stacked, biodiverse food forest.

• What is Permaculture?

Joshua breaks down permaculture as “applied ecology”—designing edible and ecological systems that match the local site, climate, and natural patterns. In this episode we learn why permaculture is adaptive, not formulaic.

• What Exactly Is a Food Forest?

A food forest is more than an orchard. Joshua explains how layers—from canopy to shrubs to vines to roots to mycelium—work together to create resilience, fertility, pollinator habitat, and year-round harvests.

• Stacking Functions & Vertical Layering

Joshua details:

• How to place tall trees on the north side in the Northern Hemisphere
• How vertical stacking lets you grow way more in small spaces
• Why “meadow-style” mid-height diversity beats densely planting tall trees

• The 7 Layers of a Food Forest

We explore the classic permaculture layers:

1. Canopy trees
2. Sub-canopy trees
3. Shrubs & brambles
4. Herbaceous plants
5. Groundcovers
6. Root crops
7. Vines & climbers
8. (+ the mycelium layer!)

Joshua shares examples of plant combinations that thrive together and create symbiotic relationships.

• Mediterranean & Drought-Wise Design

Learn why California’s Mediterranean climate is a perfect teacher for:

• Water-wise food production
• Soils that need oxygen and drainage
• Selecting resilient varieties
• Planting drought-tolerant guilds
• Joshua also explains how these principles translated to a project in Virginia with soggy soil.

• How to Start a Food Forest in 100 Square Feet

Joshua’s favorite entry point:

• Start with a 10×10 ft “tile”
• One main tree (like apple, plum, avocado)
• Two supporting plants (berries + herbs)
• Add soil-building ground covers and root crops
• Make it simple, modular, repeatable.

• Top Mistakes New Growers Make

Joshua shares the big ones:

• Not starting because the project feels too big
• Planting too densely
• Creating too much shade too early
• Ignoring soil health
• Designing tall trees before establishing the mid-layer

He explains how “thinking like a meadow” helps avoid over-shading and keeps the system diverse and manageable.

Get Joshua’s New Book:

California Food Forests: Feeding the Future — packed with design tips, plant guilds, AutoCAD templates, and practical maps to build your first 100-sq-ft food-forest module.

Connect With Joshua:

• Native Sun Gardens – Food forest design, consulting, and permaculture education -  NativeSunGardens.com

Visit UrbanFarm.org/CaliforniaFoodForest for the show notes and links on this episode!

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