A Rational Fear

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We’re gearing up for a big 10-week season of weekly A Rational Fear Podcasts — but before we hit full steam, enjoy this chat with the very smart and curious Sarah Wilson in a new ARF format called A Rational Fear Lite.

This week on the pod:

🤑 The Alex Jones $1bn Verdict.
🦾 No one at Meta wants to use the Metaverse. Great piece from The Verge
🕴️The 10 year anniversary of the Julia Gillard Misogyny speech. Hear the full interview with Ben Rhodes — the juicy bit about Abbott and Gillard speech hits around 35min in.

Sarah’s plugs:

🎙️Sarah's podcast WILD
✍🏻 Sarah's Substack THIS IS PRECIOUS

We’ll be back next week with a new A Rational Fear season.

And I’d love to hear from you. What shall we do next season? What do you want to hear more of? What would you like to hear less of? How can we delight our audience more?

Leave a comment on the Substack post for this podcast.

Cheers

Dan Ilic

Dan Ilic  0:00  
G'day there, Dan Ilic here with a rational fear lite this week. Yes, it is a light version just me and a guest. You'll meet them in just a second. Just kind of warming up for the next 10 weeks of regular recording. It's going to be exciting. I think we might have a sponsor as well. So next week, I'll tell you all about that on a rational fear. In the meantime, I'm recording irrational fear on the land of the Gadigal. In the urination, sovereignty was never seated, we need a treaty. Let's start the show.

Simon Chilvers  0:26  
A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, Canberra, fed gum, and section 40 of our rational view recommended listening by image your audience.

Dan Ilic  0:39  
Tonight, Sydney takes over Canberra as the most expensive city to rent in Australia. In order to win back the title of Canberra and landlords are increasing levels of mold. And after Mark Zuckerberg released his new avatar with legs is promised to invest another $10 billion to develop a personality. And cuantas has hit a huge profit the first six months of the year earning $1.3 billion before tax, most of which they discovered was stored in baggage lost in broomed. It's the 14th of October just weeks away from a state street tax cut. This is a rational fear.

Welcome to rational fear. I'm your host, former coach of the Manly Sea Eagles, Dan Ilic. And this is a rational fear light, just me and a guest. Talking through a few stories, having a bit of fun catching up, seeing someone face to face. Oh, it's good. It's gonna be good fun. And when it gets we have journalist, thinker, doer, and most crucially, my neighbor Sarah Wilson, welcome to irrational fear.

Sarah Wilson  1:47  
I think it's absolutely apps that are on the diet version of the show, don't you? Because that's the reputation I've always had as peddling a diet. Yeah,

Dan Ilic  1:55  
this is perfectly fine. This is the sugar free version of a rational fire. Yeah,

Sarah Wilson  1:59  
yeah. I mean, I quit. I quit sugar. I don't know if everyone got that memo. But yes, I'm still associated as a diet. So I've never been on a diet my life. Dan, you've seen me eat. So

Dan Ilic  2:09  
like, yeah, I have seen you eat and I've had burgers with you. I'm robust. Yeah. The thing is, when you say you've quit sugar, and you've quit, quit sugar. Are you now back into sugar? Are you now investing? Double downing on sugar and double boosting sugar?

Sarah Wilson  2:23  
No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, nothing's changed. It's just that I'm not caught up in the tedium of running a business, which is just not my thing, right? And also a commitment I made to myself, blah, blah, blah, that when it made a certain amount of money, I gave it all away.

Dan Ilic  2:37  
Well, would you believe it? I'm not committed to running a business either. That is why we need your help on Patreon. On Patreon, and can I say Sarah's also got an incredibly interesting and thought provoking substack and she provides us on substack. But my partner loves your substack she absolutely enthralled with the stories of your travels and insights that you gather from people you meet on the road. It's a terrific subject. Should

Sarah Wilson  3:03  
I enjoy writing? It's a nice realm to be in, isn't it just having worked for News Corp for many years and ACP slash was a Bauer, the Germans Yeah, yeah. It's it's nice just to be to have my own space where I can actually yeah, get subscribers who want to read my stuff.

Dan Ilic  3:19  
What's it like being your own editor?

Sarah Wilson  3:20  
Oh, this is typos. Isn't there?

Dan Ilic  3:24  
Alright, let's get into the stories this week. A Connecticut jury awarded nearly a billion dollars in damages to 15 plaintiffs who were defined by conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. Now this is absolutely incredible like this, this landed today, a billion dollars Alex Jones is now gonna have to pay these poor people that he spent years defaming over the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting back in 2012. So long ago now but of course, the pain of this is a is a real thing. Back in August, he was forced to pay $50 billion he declared bank Texas

Sarah Wilson  4:00  
Yeah, one family yeah. Now it's eight families who've who are gonna have to split that $1 billion for defamation. Yeah, I think he's set up sort of companies with dad. Right. So some of his money has been siphoned off to family accounts and trusts a bit of sneaky stuff going on. But still I doubt he has enough to pay off you know, several billion dollars there's

Dan Ilic  4:21  
one estimate that is worth 300 million but yeah, you know at the most that is still a lot of a mushroom infused coffee beans you have to sell on the store. He's still selling like he's still he's still asking for money. I don't know if you caught this. This is him. During the actual verdict as the verdict was coming down. He was on air on his show. asking his supporters for money still from Remington.

Alex Jones  4:48  
That'll be happening ain't no money.

Unknown Speaker  4:50  
Damages. In this case, we award damages to each plaintiff and against Alex Jones and freeze October number one compensatory instructions fill in both numbers for each waited then goes I remember

Alex Jones  5:05  
I'm in bankruptcy we got two years of appeals. The money you donate does not go to these people. It goes to fight this fraud and it goes to stabilize the company they want to shut down that's why the analysts chaser did this by they use these families so save infowars.com are fighting Goliath will win because of you save infowars.com Infowars store.com Double Patriot points 10% off of 7076 right now at Infowars store but you see he wants me to fight for you. I'm doing it and you see what they do. So you want we want to fight? That's fine. It's your decision. But that's where we are. That's the whacked out system to the left. Do we hit a billion

Dan Ilic  5:45  
did we hit a billion guys? Like he's a he's like we'd like waiting for the big billion to land did we do it? Either way the bad guys well, yeah, you are the bad guys but there's completely shamelessness. Go on it at this time as the verdict was handed if if you had to owe someone a billion dollars because you are an asshole would you be

Sarah Wilson  6:06  
shutting my mouth but that's just not the way he operates. It's really interesting. I don't know if you ever followed any of Jon Ronson stuff on him. He's been following him for decades, like literally since he was like in his early 20s. I mean, I remember

Dan Ilic  6:19  
as a kid watching his early conspiracy theories about 911 probably like, early 2000 to 2003 Youtube wasn't even around then it was these these WMV

Sarah Wilson  6:31  
That's it. That's it. Well, Jon Ronson went and visited him because he was running the program out of his bedroom. And literally, he had Star Wars wallpaper. Like, you know, he was in his little room with Star Wars, you know, wallpaper with a single bed. It was his boyhood home. And that's where he was recording from

Dan Ilic  6:50  
from his mom's house is Dad's Yeah, well, that's only one step down from this situation where I'm renting to a landlord and I'm, I'm recording this from home.

Sarah Wilson  6:59  
Yeah, but just wait for 20 years get somebody to follow you now, Jon Ronson, to document his story now. But look, he's an absolute narcissist. And that court case, I've listened to bits of it. He really treated it like one of his programs, didn't he? It was it was a performance and he created chaos. And that's what a lot of these conspiracy theorists shocked Doc's I mean, that's what they love doing. It's what Trump did they create chaos.

Dan Ilic  7:25  
What does this defamation thing mean for people who want to be like, you know, the next Alex Jones like your RV, your Manny's your your right wing shock shock. So are your your crazy left wing shock jocks who want to kind of pedal in this mistruths space, do you think? Do you think they'll take notice? Or do you think this is just a sign to get more attention?

Sarah Wilson  7:46  
I think that it will actually rile people up for a while. I mean, he's still going, he's still making money. He has been deep platformed across all of, you know, like Twitter, Facebook, and so on. But then you have the Joe Rogan's of the world that get him onto their programs, and, you know, spread the message across Spotify. So he's still got a little bit of oxygen, but I do think the $1 billion thing will will resonate. I think there'll be anger they'll his fans will mobilize but I'm not sure how far it can go when you've been deep platformed to that extent,

Dan Ilic  8:20  
have you seen the kind of stuff he sells on his on his store? Alex Jones No. Oh, he sells like you know, supplements and the usual coffee beans infused with like, mushroom, by the broadcaster's there are these other things you can buy from the Infowars stores which are like literally buckets of food. You can put in your bunker

Sarah Wilson  8:38  
off prepper prepper stuff.

Dan Ilic  8:41  
It's like it's buckets of food that will last for like 10 years in a bucket for when the shit hits the fan. Do you think he's going to be hitting gear to his bunker to eat some of that food now? Is that the plan he's got so much of his food in the bucket he

Sarah Wilson  8:52  
might feel and buy up land in New Zealand because that's what he's done. He's built his bunker I think in New Zealand. Yeah, you want to cut? Yeah, the prepper realm? I mean, that's another realm where do we go from there?

Dan Ilic  9:03  
Zealand, New Zealand too far to go for Alex Jones. He's can barely make it out of his parents bedroom.

Sarah Wilson  9:08  
thing. Actually, one thing that really came up and struck me with the Jon Ronson deep dive idea over the last couple of days as this has all been going down, is he went back and actually spoke to some of his childhood friends. And Alex likes to tell the story of how you know his dad took him out of a school, which was just terrible at some stage. So Jon Ronson, went back and actually investigated and found that in fact, he was such a bully. He actually beat up some guy within an inch of his life. This guy, this was his best friend, by the way.

Dan Ilic  9:40  
Are you trying to tell me Alex Jones was a bully?

Sarah Wilson  9:42  
I know hard to believe. I believe it didn't just happen overnight. You're using different passionate about conspiracies, right. But he his best friend I think made a slur about a girl that he wasn't keen on or something like that. And he beat this guy up within an inch of his life. And this guy's now got permanent bro. ain't trying Oh, and he's I think he's in a wheelchair etc. The friends all got together because they were so sick of being bullied because he was the book classic bully. Everyone was too scared to stand up to him. But there was a conspiracy. They all got together on a Saturday night and actually gave him a pounding and off the back of that his dad moved him from town to another place, right? Yeah, so as a store of slightly different version of the story, right?

Dan Ilic  10:24  
Yeah, he's he's not the victim here.

Alex Jones  10:29  
I just don't want to catch him in bed with a goblin. I don't want to see him kissing goblins. Having political Succubus with goblins.

Dan Ilic  10:40  
This week second fear meta is kind of going through this bit of an epic transition because Facebook is struggling. Not many people are using it anymore. So they've got this big idea to kind of start the metaverse as people know, it's this VR experience. And the share price of meta has tanked. It's like half of what it was a year ago. And the metaverse is trying to come to bear and everyone's trying to push Metaverse on everyone. But here's the thing, not even the people that work at meta actually want to use it. This great report from The Verge came out today say that the internal memos are saying that not enough people are using the metaverse at work. And if you can't use it at work, how are people meant to use it in their everyday lives? And

Sarah Wilson  11:21  
well, it's affecting the development, right. It's saying that the developments aren't happening fast enough, because people aren't getting native with it.

Dan Ilic  11:28  
Yeah. And so people don't know how to use it. People hate using it when they fix the glitches. Yeah, people that work at Mehta just don't want to use Metaverse isn't that a headline

Sarah Wilson  11:37  
pops up in one form or another every six months or so we love a headline that says Silicon Valley don't use their own products. Right? My one of my favorites is all of the big heads, including Steve Jobs and Bill Gates as well. They send their kids to Steiner Schools where they play with wooden blocks. And technology's completely banned.

Dan Ilic  11:57  
Like, please, we need to get away from technology as much as we possibly Yeah,

Sarah Wilson  12:01  
I mean, it's a real thing. And I think it was only a couple of weeks ago, some inventors some big game doesn't let his kids play it. So it's not a new concept. This is slightly different because they're saying the product ship. But really it's a reflection on the metaverse, isn't it? Yeah, and the whole VR dream. Like, I'm seeing this happening more and more. It's a discussion I'm seeing Dan, with a number of my guests on my podcast where we actually do talk about the fact that this technology AI in particular, is just galloping ahead. But there's quite a few people, including the people who are inventing the technology who are going hang on, do we want this? Is this what we actually really want? And I think that question is becoming very, very loud.

Dan Ilic  12:47  
You are correct. This is a great insight. Nobody wants this universe. Currently, there is a great experiment happening with AI and somebody has managed to stitch together an AI Steve Jobs being interviewed by an AI Joe Rogan, just from everything, they've all said it kind of it I'm gonna play a little bit of it for you. So you can get a feeling for what it sounds like. We'll play the first couple of minutes. And just he kind of the back and forth from Steve Jobs and Joe Rogan. It is pretty uncanny.

AI Joe Rogan  13:21  
Welcome to another episode of The bro Joe Rogan experience. And on this episode, I welcome my friend who's difficult to describe. Fascinated by him, and I hope you will be too and he is weird, and brilliant and sometimes totally insufferable. So super psyched about having him in the house today. First time or? Yeah, we've had you on before, but not for a long time. Like Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore and ghost. You're a memory from the past. So without further ado, my friend who's difficult to describe and wonderful and I'm so grateful he came on the show.

AI Steve Jobs  14:02  
How's it going? Good to see you, buddy. It's been a long time since I've been on the show. I've missed this. It's always fun.

AI Joe Rogan  14:08  
How's it going? Come on. Tell me about jobs. It's always good to see you, buddy. I'm so happy you came on man.

AI Steve Jobs  14:19  
Yeah, it's great to be on the show. Your audience is just so different from your normal Apple users. And that's a good thing. It's cool.

Dan Ilic  14:27  
Isn't that uncanny?

Sarah Wilson  14:28  
It's a bro mash up. Right. I mean, it's slick and bro meets pod bro.

Dan Ilic  14:35  
And the AI is probably developed by white bros.

Sarah Wilson  14:38  
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I don't know if they realize just, yeah, the irony. The triple irony, the triple pipe irony going on there. It is really interesting. I like how it segues from our last topic. Yeah. Because I measure I mean, well that's what that's what, that's where we've arrived and where everything is sort of not It enabled around everything else, you know, you've got these conspiracy theories, like we can't tell the difference between who's a left leaning person and who's a right leaning person. Like, everything is so fragmented and mashed up. Now it's so difficult to know what's real, and AI just reflects that. Yeah, like, what's, where does reality start and end,

Dan Ilic  15:22  
I never thought I'd need to use like, darly or something I could never see use for it for myself. I'm like, Who wants to create as Spaceman in a field of poppies? Like, like, like, why would I need that. And the other day, I could see how I could just put a whole bunch of people out of business because I was putting together the irrational fears show live at festival dangerous ideas, and I needed a bunch of graphics done in a hurry. And I, I hired a professional graphic artist to do it. But I'm like, wow, in about four years time, I could imagine these jokes as graphics, put them into a thing. And now they'll spit it out. And I'll be able to, I'll be able to use those graphics instead of hiring someone. And I immediately went shit. That is, that is a big, that's a that's a it's actually scared me by the person I trusted to put these graphs together. Pat, Forrest did an incredible job. And they're hilarious and beautiful, and stunning images to get jokes across to the audience.

Sarah Wilson  16:17  
But this is what we want. Because do we want to put people out of jobs? Do you want the delicacy that the imperfection that comes with human creativity to be eradicated? No, I don't think we do

Dan Ilic  16:29  
a what. And also for me, like, as a joke teller, like, I thought I could never use a program like that. Because comedy requires a certain nuance to kind of get an idea over real quick fashion. But seeing some of these images that are popping out of people's prompts, it's like, fuck, if you if you're a good prompter, you could you could absolutely create the image, you need to get the joke.

Sarah Wilson  16:49  
Yeah, got it. But you still got to have the human to create the joke. You've still got to have the nuance going on that I see. I don't even know think So You Think You think AI can be taught how to

Dan Ilic  16:59  
be funny? Yeah, I think I think so. And you know, the thing that makes me nervous about that, and this is the reason why I hate this game so much is Cards Against Humanity, Cards Against Humanity is just a non sequitur generator. And people find non sequitur is funny. And if you just jam two ideas up there that undercut each other people laugh and have a good time and move on. And so it's like, ah, that's, that's the thing that's going to kill us somewhere in the future, someone's gonna work out how to make

Sarah Wilson  17:26  
all the singularity, which is that moment when AI technology is meant to take over from human capacity. They're saying it's this century, like, it's close. And is there anyone out there? Is there a godlike figure? You know, and I'm guessing it's not Joe Rogan or Steve Jobs? Well, we know it's not Steve, are they sitting down and going, okay, ethical and moral implications of this? And are they just going that AI is made in our image, right? It's a reflection of our intelligence. And when we confront something that's weaker than us more vulnerable, we kill it. And so is AI going to do the same thing to us? I'm sure Mehta,

Dan Ilic  18:04  
a company, that department that's responsible for the genocide of large groups of Southeast Asian populations got unethical department, I'm sure they've thought it through.

Unknown Speaker  18:17  
Oh, God, who sues? Oh, rational fear,

Unknown Speaker  18:21  
we are still the company that designs technology around people. And finally, this

Dan Ilic  18:27  
week's third beer, Sarah Wilson is the 10th anniversary of Julian Gill ads misogyny speech 10 years ago, it kind of is strange that there are young people out there who are in their 20s, who were like 10 years old, when this kind of speech came out and they are magnifying it.

Sarah Wilson  18:41  
They're wearing the t shirt,

Dan Ilic  18:42  
they're wearing the T shirts. It's a fun, it's a weird kind of thing to kind of see how this speech has become mimetic as like a symbol of feminism in Australia

Sarah Wilson  18:52  
internationally, though, as well. I mean, that's the that's the funny thing about it is that here in Australia, it didn't really make headlines until it made headlines overseas, because as you know, it came off the back of a bit of a slippery basses. Peter sleeper was misogynist. Julia Gillard had a vested interest in keeping him in the Speaker's seat. And so that speech pivoted from that, but the American audiences, the German audiences who watched it, you know, virally, they don't know all of that. That said, it also came off the back of many, many years of horrible misogyny. Yeah, and it's occurring more broadly, as we now know, in Australian politics and in Parliament House. So yeah, it's interesting. It was always something that took a while for Australians to grasp. I think it was a bigger international phenomenon first.

Dan Ilic  19:48  
Why do you think that is? Why do you think people in global spaces saw their speech and were will

Sarah Wilson  19:54  
So partly because it was out of context. Of course, it's

Dan Ilic  19:58  
very difficult to kind of say, well, let me Talk about this guy Peter sliver of an asshole. He works for the National.

Sarah Wilson  20:04  
Tony Abbott. Let me explain the fact that Yeah, so I think there was that that's not all that it really is because I think Australia, and I'll say it straight. I've said it before as misogynist country. And I don't know that we've progressed all that further in 10 years. It's sort of the wallpaper to our existence, and we have to suck it up. We don't do the outrage around it. And I sort of think that we are expected to roll with the punches of it. Misogyny is very tied up in that bloke culture. The Larry can She'll be right, God, yeah, you're the one with the problem, because he can't take a joke, that whole vibe. And so when we see misogyny as in as women, I think, or as you know, good men, we don't notice it straightaway. And we don't call it out straightaway, we needed it to be seen through the lens of, you know, being these outlets in the on the other side of the world before we felt very ashamed about it.

Dan Ilic  21:00  
Speaking of somebody who saw this speech overseas, Ben Rhodes, who was on irrational fear, couple years ago, talking we were talking to him about climate change

Sarah Wilson  21:09  
this is this has resurfaced as an adult or became news back then didn't that irrational fear expose this, this particular story? But yes, please tell us the background. Yeah.

Dan Ilic  21:19  
So we were talking to Ben Rhodes about climate change and how you know, Australia so far behind in Australia, so backwards, and he was just saying, You guys are so backwards. You know, Tony Abbott is so backwards like we had to we had many debates with Tony Abbott. And we realized like talking to him was like talking to a brick wall. And why he was in power. Every time we had to deal with him. We watched the misogyny space. So here's Ben Rhodes.

Sarah Wilson  21:37  
Oh, what just for entertainment?

Dan Ilic  21:39  
Yeah, here he is, in his own words here, Ben.

Ben Rhodes  21:41  
I did not know that. I will tell you that whenever we were really annoyed with Tony Abbott. We would watch the video of that speech by Julia Gillard. Yeah, well, that speech got watched a lot. Let me just put it that way. You know,

Lewis Hobba  21:57  
and when sorry, when all those hand washing videos were coming out at the start, and they were like, You need to wash your hands for at least 20 seconds. People were giving you like sunglasses like wash it for the length of Happy Birthday. There are a lot of people who are going you just need to wash your hands for the length of Julia Gilad was such a nice

Dan Ilic  22:15  
seven minutes. It's heartening to know that Obama and his staff were watching that speech just to feel better about having to deal with Australia.

Sarah Wilson  22:28  
While we're doing segues, by the way, I actually had on my podcast last week, a woman called Marianne Sieghart. She's a BBC correspondent. She's been the associate editor of the Times for 20 years. And she wrote a book just recently called the authority gap. And in it she interviews Julia Gillard, or Dillard about the speech. And there's a bunch of things that she says in there, which actually have come out in the press just this week about how she wished she actually had said it done the speech earlier, she had actually sat on that rage and that need to call it out for quite some time, because she felt that Australians would settle into the idea of an Australian female PM. Well, they didn't. And eventually, she felt she had to give that speech. But Marianne, and I cover a bunch of things in the podcast, and she's got this great, I've got to share this one, she's got this great study that she references, where I think it's something like it's a huge, I think it's 3000 children across all teenagers, male and female, across nine countries. So it's a meta study, just to bring it all back in. Anyway, they get a bunch of 15 year olds, male and female, and they present them with a dozen or so mathematical concepts. And the children that are teenagers are asked if those ideas are familiar to them. Have you heard of these ideas? Do you know about these things? Anyway? In the blokes say that they have heard are far more of them than the women, the women go, Oh, I'm not sure if that kind of thing, right? The thing is about a quarter or a third of them. Bullshit, right? They throw in non concepts. But the blokes still say, oh, yeah, I know about that. I know about that. And the women say, oh, no, I don't think I know about that one. Anyway, the conclusion of the study is that men have a disposition to bullshitting. And, you know, it starts when they're young, and it carries on anyway. So if we're going to be talking to former male Australian PMS, the bullshitting thing comes through loud and true. But then to bring it back around, she also points out that Obama's staff also had this thing where the women got fed up with their ideas been interrupted and talked over in meetings. And so they got together and Obama picked it. And he actually got the women together and said, Hang on, what are you doing here? Have you heard about this?

Dan Ilic  24:46  
This is the echo. Somebody will say a point. And then somebody will come in and say it, and somebody will repeat the point. Yeah,

Sarah Wilson  24:53  
so a woman will come up with an idea and generally, any woman listening will know what I'm talking about. It'll just get ignored. But then In 10 minutes layer a bloke will raise it. And of course, it's a fantastic idea and they own the idea and off it goes. So what happens? The echoing thing is that women get together and go, Alright, we're gonna bring some a point, we're gonna make sure it almost gets, you know, tallied. Right. So great point, Martha. And then, you know, and that's how they do it. And Obama noticed it, and the women said, yeah, we've got to do it. Otherwise our ideas don't get heard. So anyway, that was a guest that I spoke to. And since we're doing segways I think that was a loop de loop segway. Well, Danville,

Dan Ilic  25:30  
you are the you are the master of the Segway. Well,

Sarah Wilson  25:34  
I don't know where we landed anywhere in interesting, but

Dan Ilic  25:37  
Well, speaking of podcast, Sarah, you've got a podcast. That was

Sarah Wilson  25:41  
a perfect handles. Your podcast is,

Dan Ilic  25:46  
you know, it's back in fine form. You're back on the horse who have you had recently and what have you learned?

Sarah Wilson  25:50  
This week's is actually an interesting one. It's a slight diversion. Matt Brown. He's an Australian academic. And he co hosts a podcast called decoding the Guru's. And it pulls apart these. Again, this is a segue, the Joe Rogan's of the world, the LEX Friedman's the Weinstein's they actually pull apart these segments bit by bit, and put it through a barometer a group to see if they're like for real or just got Messiah Complex. And it's really it's quite controversial. They're all blokes, you know, and yeah, this is Australia. He's an Australian academic, based out of the University of Queensland. And then the other one is an academic, he's Irish, and lives in Tokyo makes no sense whatsoever. But they've become quite influential and a lot of these gurus you know, the Jordan Peterson's Lex Friedman, who else is there, Sam Harris, although Sam doesn't quite fit into that bucket, Russell Brand. They are sort of targets of decoding the Guru's anyway. So I interview, Matt about all of this and we go into why it is that this is happening now. What it is saying about our culture, what it's saying about young men and their need for these gurus for these men that come out,

Dan Ilic  27:09  
why do we need Jordan Peterson to tell people to have tall rules to make their bed or to make their fucking bed? Yeah.

Sarah Wilson  27:15  
Well, if it was as harmless as that, that'd be okay. But the problem is that they go on to spread conspiracy theories. And of course, they all sell the same powders and products online. They all interview each other. So Joe Rogan used to have more women on his podcast. Now they just, it's just a bro fest. It's a bro orgy, they all interview each other, they all love each other, they all support each other. And when you've got Joe Rogan supporting Alex Jones, and Andrew Tate, and then you've got Lex Friedman supporting Joe Rogan, and they all support each other. It's just this echo chamber of quite frankly, misogyny.

Dan Ilic  27:50  
Well, can I just say thank you for supporting irrational fear by coming on?

Sarah Wilson  27:56  
Yes, well, and we did talk misogyny. And we did talk Alex Jones. But are we platforming? I don't

Dan Ilic  28:03  
know. It's hard to tell. So with that, with that interview, what's the one big takeaway from that conversation you had with with Matt? Um,

Sarah Wilson  28:13  
well, I think it would be for my listeners to just be aware of husband's friends who are listening to these people and be aware of the messages that they're peddling. Just about everyone I know has a partner who loves Joe Rogan is great, he's great. And thinks that their their research is legit. It's it's really not. Yeah. Anyway, I'd be a fan of Joe Rogan. I still listen to his stuff.

Dan Ilic  28:33  
So do your own research and do your own research on your research. shape or SIBO. Big thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon. Also, big thank you to rode mics who sent me a wonderful new road caster too excited to test that out streaming sometime soon. If you are heading to purpose next week, we'll be there we're going to be recording irrational fear in the foyer at purpose. So do apply and say hi, and we'll catch you next time. There's always something to be scared of. See you then.

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Australia is the most secretive liberal democracy in the world.  We’d love to tell you more about it, but need our lawyer present. In this special edition of A Rational Fear where we’ll rip into Australia’s most closely-guarded secrets. How did ▓▓▓▓▓ ▓▓▓▓ drown? And why can’t you say a ▓▓▓▓ has arrived from ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓?

On this very special edition of A Rational Fear live on stage at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas, we bring together some big names in journalism, comedy and whistleblowing to examine what went wrong with Australian Secrecy.

05:21 Dan Ilic sets the context for the ultra secretive world we live in now.
16:10 Damien Cave points out that Australia is secretive for no good reason.
26:29 Amber Schultz highlights that the press also have secrets when they shouldn't.
37:18 Kate McClymont gives you tips on how to remain secret.
43:35 David McBride talks about the personal toll for doing the right thing.
50:15 Lewis Hobba says we're all being told things we shouldn't, and none of the things we should.

Big thanks to everyone who came to the live show.

Please support the podcast on Patreon and Subscribe to the email list. We can't keep doing this kind of stuff without your help.

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear
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Dan Ilic  0:00  

Oh, hello everyone. Yay round of applause We haven't even done anything. It's it's fantastic.

Joy. We're recording a live podcast of our show. So you are an integral part of the show. So it's important to clap and cheer and laugh at all the jokes no matter the quality of the jokes. Yeah, that's right. Yes. Like,

move that person to the front. Yeah. Well, we've got a seat down here for you. Particularly at the top. At the very start of the show. Dan likes to start the show with three big jokes. terrible jokes very, very in quality.

And they are wafting. Terrible, yeah, really.

Lewis Hobba  0:42  

For his sake. I beg if you clap, and she just pretend they're really good.

Dan Ilic  0:49  

It's a format point of the show. We want to we want to be as close to the weekly as possible.

Lewis Hobba  0:56  

It's gonna be a really fun show. This is an incredible house. And let's firstly just give it a huge round of applause. Yeah. Carriageworks festival dangerous idea.

Dan Ilic  1:03  

Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm Dan. And I'm Louis. Yeah. And we'll introduce these folks in a second. All right, great. I'm recording my end of irrational fear on Gadigal land in the urination sovereignty was never seated when at a treaty. Let's start the show.

Simon Chilvers  1:17  

A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, Canberra, fed gum, and section 40 of a rational fear recommended listening by immature audience.

Dan Ilic  1:31  

leaked documents show that top defense officials were kept in the dark about submarine contracts. When asked about it, Scott Morrison said he wouldn't talk about ongoing underwater matters.

And in order to increase transparency Anthony Albanese auditor or government ministers to leave their dream journals unlocked. And Governor General David Hurley becomes a Patreon supporter of irrational fear. No jokes. He is the best Governor General ever. Viva la Governor General. It's the 17th of September 2022. And you'll if you're listening to this it means I'm in a secret prison in Tuggeranong. This is a rational

irrational fear on your hosts former sovereign Daniel itch and this is the show live at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas. This is the podcast where we make fun of the toughest topics because you know if we don't we try. Let's meet our fear mongers for tonight. She's been uncovering lies in Sydney for over 25 years. Tonight we'll ask her for her tips about how to lie to her face. It's the host of Leia Leia, Kate McClymont.

Now Kate is not what we're talking about tonight. But everyone in this room wants to know did the husband do it?

Kate McClymont  2:55  

Oh, you haven't left me with a foot to stand on.

Dan Ilic  3:00  

Don't be fooled by this man's accent. He's so Australian. He makes the rest of us look like immigrants from the New York Times it's Damien caves. Damien when it comes to learning about Australia, is this something you haven't quite mastered yet?

Damien Cave  3:15  

You know, I just discovered what it means to have a smoker still there.

Dan Ilic  3:22  

And she's covered everything this year from Canberra to Kyiv tonight will be her toughest assignment yet, please give it up for Amber shocks.

And as a cranky journalist who is more transparent Russia or Australia

Amber Schultz  3:39  

spends the metrics transparent about body composition that's transparent about ability to succumb to peer pressure. That's elbow.

Dan Ilic  3:49  

And he's the former Australian Defense Lawyer turn whistleblower now professional panel guest is David McBride. David, is there anything funny about the being the enemy of the state?

David McBride  4:04  

Well, it certainly makes your dating life a lot better. Say, Oh, I'm a lawyer. They're like, Oh, sickness, my boyfriend. You say I'm facing unlimited time in jail. You must be

Dan Ilic  4:22  

really up for a one night stand.

Very day. And he's a government employee who's seen too much. And he's come here tonight to say enough is enough. It's Louis harbor. Lewis some. What secrets will you be revealing tonight?

What secrets? Yeah. Gosh, I'm gonna tell you. I can't What can I tell you who's gonna win the 100 100 next? The audience here would probably really care about that. All these

people are aging into the demographic. And he's on the paths and paths tonight is still in vain for the news fighters podcast.

Oh, this is great. Well, what a stellar lineup, we have got more influence and power on this panel than inside Scott Morrison's head. It's very exciting. And I don't blame him for signing up for more than one job. There's, there's, of course a labor crisis going on. It's very hard to find good help. We'll have more on the Morrison ministries a little later on. In fact, we'll hear from all of our fear mongers in just a second. But first, I'm going to do a bit of a deep dive to set the context for tonight's performances. I'm here to tell a story. There's an island in the Pacific that is on the verge of autocracy, its leaders have acquired a huge amount of power over its citizens. They raid journalists are reporting on crimes the state has committed, they lock up whistleblowers, for calling out corruption. If doctors and teachers talk about the jobs on social media, they could go to jail. And they banned reporting on certain modes of transport. So where the bloody hell are you? Well, if you answer that question out loud, you could go to jail, but I say because I'm brave. I'm not a coward. It's New Zealand and we need to keep an eye on. No, it's us. It's Australia. Prior to the National Security Information Act of 2004. The top three Australian secrets were the Vegemite recipe, the Australia two winged keel and Harold Holtz post Prime Ministerial career as a taxi driver in Bundaberg. No one ever talks about it. That's it. That's all the secrets we had in Australia, pre 2004. There was, of course, our Pine Gap. But that's more of an American CSR secret. Yeah. And the only person that can lose their job if they talk about is the prime minister. Everything else? Yes. Oh, because everything else is on the table until 911, which was or in Australia's case, our 911 was the tamper crisis. And that's when the National Information Security Act came in. And then the She'll be right. No walk and fairies version of Australia was locked away in John Howard's basement never to be seen again. Instead, we have a bunch of legislation that makes transparency harder than ever. The National Information Security Act is one thing up is the big one. Okay. Anything deemed by the government that is of a national security risk can't be reported on or it can't even go to court. And if it does go to court, you'll never hear about it. Like the case of witness J discovered in 2019, a person who was secretly jailed in the ICT, we don't know their name. We don't know their crime, their sentence or what they were sentence for. The only thing we do know is what they might look like thanks to a court sketch from the secret trial. Yeah. Look around you. It could be could be any one of us and how we know they exist in the first place was that they actually writing a memoir in jail. And the AFP went and raided their cell and they were so pissed off that the AFP raided their cell to take their memoir away. They took the ICT government to court to complain about it, and then we only find out about it because a Judge Burns read it out in court. And everyone's like, what the fuck with this secret guy got from? There was witness Kay a secret trial against a whistleblower who revealed that Australian secret agents bugged East Timor Prime Minister's office when we were negotiating Castile that was in 2004. That deal got torn up went to The Hague. There's a whole deal. They got renegotiated again, and then it wasn't until 2014. Witness Kay went to trial in secret in Australia, a decade later. Now, this should be concerning, because we don't know how many secret cases there are like this. They could be 1000s. I'm not an expert. But I think we should definitely investigate witnesses a true i. Now, that's one part secret trials, right. A couple of other things you should think about is this misnamed Freedom of Information Act, because it's not free, and you don't get any information. Journalists or anyone who is interested can actually request documents from the government. But it costs a shitloads of money. And if you're a journalist, it can take forever and go past your deadline. And they're pretty much useless when it comes back. When news organizations have the resources and time to challenge the government. It's a whole process, you got to go through the Information Commissioner, the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, and then the federal court. And that process can take up to three fucking years to do that which case in our hypothetical, that journalist would have been laid off by several news organizations. But on the upside is now working inside the Prime Minister and Cabinet so they can look at all the documents they want. And then this is this is the national cabinet, a regular meeting of premiers and First Ministers and the Prime Minister. It was created during COVID to talk about what COVID Presumably, we actually don't know because it's secret. South Australia might want to change the size of their rail gauge again and ruin the dream to boomers across the country in the Indian Pacific. We don't know we need to know. We just have a minute song. So that joke.

Really excited for that. Used to be called COAG I don't know if anyone remembers this. The Commonwealth Heads of Government But it was changed for two reasons. First of all, it sounded like a brand of glue. And then Scott Morrison renamed the national cabinet that so he could basically claim that all the meetings were cabinet in confidence like the real Commonwealth cabinet, but it's not. It's just made up. Morrison just fucking made it up

Lewis Hobba  10:21  

for now he's a cabinet maker as well. He's a cabinet maker.

Scott Morrison  10:29  

That was good. Thank you.

Dan Ilic  10:32  

Thank you, sir. You're allowed to lobby. You don't have to say that was good. But I'll tell you.

There are heroes on this island like the Auditor General whose great work includes sifting through tons of Excel spreadsheets to find any anomalies exposed waste and conflicts of interest. Here's what the Auditor General has done in the last little bit. You may remember the leppington triangles sportswriting carpark roads. Yeah, pretty good. What an incredible group of public service heroes give a round of applause pretty amazing work and what was their reward? Well, the Morison government defunded the pump by $14 million. Meaning that the Australian National Audit Office can now only complete 38 audits a year 38. That's not many. I think Angus Taylor has more offshore bank accounts than that. So yeah, I don't know if you've picked up a trend here. But these secrecy laws have been around a while, but it seems like they've only been used in the last 10 years or so.

It could have gotten into power 10 years or so. Is anyone who got their theory first public ministry 10 years or so. One prominent Senior Counsel Geoggrey Watson points the day that transparency died in Australia. Here's the exact date transparency died on Friday, the eighth of November 2013. It happened at a media briefing called then by the Immigration Minister Scott Morrison, you may remember it the overnight

Unknown Speaker  11:55  

incident. What's become a vet photo of asylum seekers. I will not comment further in relation to onboarding matters. Thank you. This is a great public intro. In relation to on water matters. Have they been coming further in relation to on water matters? I think we've dealt with that question.

Unknown Speaker  12:16  

And in terms of making that judgment, if they've done something because do customer Australia, doesn't that mean that your tax base policy

Scott Morrison  12:22  

is kind of? Well, you've made a whole bunch of presumptions there, which I'm not about to speculate, maybe you can make them up for? Well, you're the one making the presumptions that may

Unknown Speaker  12:30  

be the case of the overnight incident is not resolved. And that's why more information is not forthcoming. It's an ongoing

Scott Morrison  12:35  

operational matter. And the persons that were at risk have all been accounted for. We're not going to go into the micro detail of these operational matters. What we are saying is that we rendered assistance, and all the people and all the people have been accounted for. So we can go around this for a lot longer. But that is the position. Scary what you get now, isn't it? Wow,

Dan Ilic  13:01  

absolutely wild. You'll remember that.

David McBride  13:03  

You notice Angus Campbell, before he became

Dan Ilic  13:07  

chief of the defense straight after this? Yeah, like a year later, he was a chief of talent spawn. Yeah, so if you remember, do you remember that phrase, I will not comment in relation to home order matters, man. It was unrepeated every press conference for like six months until the press got bored and stopped going to those press conferences. He was even number five on the hottest 100 of that. Which is amazing. Also, it was on afternoon game shows as well. The

Unknown Speaker  13:33  

final question was $7,000 Go to you go take a look at this picture. What's the well known catchphrase? It's an ongoing operational matter. Close Hey, I bet the audience knows what it was sadly, Scott, you missed out on the $7,000 which isn't enough to buy you a journalist. These are the happy you get anyway, tonight.

Scott Morrison  14:06  

Yeah, I didn't get a logo.

Dan Ilic  14:09  

That joke relies so heavily on people remembering birthdays catch.

Instead of showing the first competition is shown.

As Jeffrey watched an SC put it there was a hint in those words that it might have something to do with national security. But that was never the case. There was no evidence was ever produced at once the government got away with it once they got a taste for it. And that kind of secrecy is alluring and has an addictive quality. As what's inputted to me by phone, just like in sports. Once one side of the game starts cheating and gets away with it. Both sides start cheating and we're already seeing labor, hinting that they will continue on with national cabinet in secret. So this is where we are on this island today laws designed to protect its citizens instead use to protect the fragile egos of megalomaniacs. We elect. Yeah. And it seems today everything on this island is secret for no good reason as Damian cave put it in a great 2019 article titled Australian might be the world's most secretive democracy. This is what he wrote. The most recent expansion of government secrecy came last year with an espionage bill would increase criminal penalties for sharing information declassified, even if even if a document happened to be as harmless as a cafeteria menu. So the other day, I tested it out, I reached out to Aziz cafe, in the middle of Parliament House, you need a pass to get into it. Or the politicians and lobbyists go there. And I sent them a text and asked them to send me a photo of the menu and they sent it through. Fantastic and don't worry, the sources were redacted.

And in case you're wondering, they're the soup of the day is chicken. Yeah, so the guy

apparently got a problem for me to check. That's good, though. Very happy. So there we go. ever run a Festival of Dangerous Ideas, please give it up for Damien cage.

Damien Cave  16:12  

Thank you. Thanks. So when I when I wrote that article, actually, you know, people thought I was crazy, calling Australia this extremely secretive democracy. But now that we have a prime minister with lots of secret jobs, maybe it's not so crazy. And maybe it's not just a crazy American who's, who's saying it? You know, since I wrote that story, there have been many more examples, lots of which you went into. But, you know, I think it's important to recognize that it's not just Canberra that this problem exists in. And, you know, I run into it all over the country when I'm dealing with people as a reporter. And I have a small story, a small example that will show you just how much it handles some of the most important issues at the local level. Like, can we get this image perhaps the giant banana, giant caveman banana? Let me back up for a minute. So we have a newsletter that The New York Times publishes every week called the Australia letter, which is basically a reporter riffing about the news of the week with a little bit of perspective. And so one week better, Odell was a wonderful writer for us. And Melbourne said, you know, I want to write about this public art thing. It's involves bananas and frogs and, and babies, and I had no idea what she was talking about. But I figured, yeah, for sure, go for it. So shockingly, after it runs, I get this email from somebody that says the subject line is immediate removal of article. And I'm wondering what on earth this is about, right. So I look in and I see that it's about the newsletter, which makes me go back and try to understand what this giant banana he-man thing is all about. And it turns out that there was an exchange being offered between, you know, a local council in Melbourne, and John Oliver, the comedian who John basically wanted to take this lovely piece of art off the hands of Melbourne and trade, and give them basically some frogs with some legs that were open a little bit wider than his approach. And along with that, he also had some babies that had been washed up on the shore and Texas, beautiful babies like this. And so he offered to trade these wonderful pieces of art for the he-man Banana. Basha was in favor of this plan. She loved the frogs, I think. So as you can see, this was a serious job of public interest journalism in Australia's greatest interests, which is why I was really surprised when I got an email and concerned I should say, and the subject line was immediate removal of article. I mean, that's a pretty big request. We don't take down articles from the New York Times, sometimes we attach a correction, maybe an Editor's Note, but take it down, I literally can't think of a single time that that's happened. And I worry that there must be some serious flaw in what beshear had written. But no, it turns out that the person in local government had an email exchange with her about whether the dollars could go into the recycling machine. And she was quoted as saying, and this is the exact quote, I don't know what the dolls are made of. So I can't officially comment either way. She wrote that in the email that her name was attached, and that it wasn't supposed to be because she did not consent to it, and was not an authorized spokesperson for the council, this council policy, she said, so at this point, I feel kind of bad. And I'm wondering like maybe this is just the person who happened to be in the office that day. So I go out and I look on LinkedIn and I discover that her actual title is Senior Advisor for media and communications. We had a bit more back and forth by email and she said that she was when she was quoted it was always without a name. Now at no point in this exchange with special did she request anonymity not that we would have granted it but the whole thing started to feel pretty ridiculous to me. I mean, here's a person who was being paid with tax dollars to give the media information demanding an article be spiked because she kind of did her job with a weird nothing burger. Have a comment about scary rubbery baby dolls. Like really, this is how far down the rabbit hole Australian secrecy is gone. But the thing is, I'd been around and I could also see this It really wasn't just her fault, right? This was bigger than her. This council did have a secrecy policy for almost everything. And everyone, just like Australia has a secrecy default for far too many things. As Dan mentioned, it's a habit, it gets addictive. She was just following the written and unwritten rules for the world's most secretive democracy. And I was pretty sure she didn't even see the context that way. So I tried to write back to her politely. And this is what I wrote. The problem here, it seems to me is the Australian practice of withholding names. In general, if you work for a public entity in a democracy, anonymity is not assumed you work for the public at taxpayer expense. And so in the future, if you don't want to be named, please make that clear in your exchange with New York Times reporters, and we can respond accordingly. She wrote me back and said, Thank you. This has been a huge lesson for me, in terms of dealing with reporters. Now again, this was her job.

Scott Morrison  20:50  

So she was she was the senior media advisor.

Damien Cave  20:53  

Yeah, exactly. Now, I wish that this was the only absurd example of Australia secrecy default in the years since I wrote that article, but it's not. There was also the time when I filed a public records request for some insight and what kinds of things the Foreign Investment Review Board was rejecting. I started out asking for companies and industries in the countries involved for every decision, I wanted to basically know what kinds of things were being rejected from China, in particular what or not, they said no to that. So then I just asked for numbers, lands statistics for which countries had applied and been rejected. I asked for ratios of accepted investments, anything that would give me any insight into what this very important government body was doing. And they said no to all of it. They just assumed it was a national security threat, whether or not China bought a dairy farm or not. More recently, and I'll end with this, I run into a senior Australian diplomat at an event who told me a handful of mildly insightful things about Australian foreign policies. At the end of our little chat, he looked at me in the eyes and he said, You can't quote or refer to anything I told you. I told them not to worry that I've been talking to a lot of Western officials from the US the UK a whole bunch of things on this story I was working on. So the most that I could imagine doing was combining what he said with others, and referring it to something like Western officials, in his eyes when Drew wide with fear. No, I've gotten in trouble for that. I've gotten in trouble for that, too. You can't do that you just can't. And again, none of what he told me amounted to state secrets, but he was completely stressed. It was like he feared being jailed or fired or killed for saying very, very little out. And that's really the problem here. The culture of secrecy has become so dominant in Australia that it muzzles, voices and sensors, people who are responsible for this democracy. Instead of recognizing that their roles include an obligation to the public to explain why they are what they are doing is good for the country. They behave as if telling the media and the public anything is a violation of ethics. And they are disciplined with that priority in mind, stay silent, keep information private, or else. Don't make any mistake. This is an authoritarian instinct. I've seen it in dictatorships around the world, and it's toxic and contagious. It's an attitude that strikes fear into everyone and anyone who has an urge to share important information that we deserve to know. One more thing, though some figures in Australian life, perhaps that former Prime Minister perhaps another member who we've tussled with, I think in the media quite a bit named Peter Dutton, have a far worse reputation on secrecy than others. But it is not a partisan problem. It's a political problem and a power problem and a habit problem. Even after Scott Morrison took on all those extra jobs, you did not see the Albanese government immediately promised to tackle the problem of secrecy all over government. And it's not clear if the Prime Minister ever will get around to dealing with it. This is the case even though countless studies show that secrecy undermines trust in democracy and creates the conditions for corruption and mismanagement. Australians really deserve better. My hope is that someday we get to a place where every official can speak freely, including those who have something to say about a gross baby doll washing up on shore, or a banana he-man public art project and

David McBride  23:54  

I want to jump in because what you said rang true and I and I get it forget it later. But the they had a thing in the defense was about privacy, the Privacy Act, and I think people understood the idea obviously, you don't want people finding out about your sexual preference or whatever, because through some sort of a lake, but they took it very seriously. And we were in in dropping bombs on people in the Middle East. And I kid you not. There was like a senior defense lawyer. It was sort of like targeting this terrorist. It's gonna say to say a Hellfire besar they were like, I'm not sure we may be breaching their privacy guideposts the whole action

Dan Ilic  24:42  

Damian has anything else? Kind of you've been here five years. Does anything else surprise you at all now due to kind of around secrecy in Australian Government?

Damien Cave  24:51  

You know, I think I'm constantly surprised by moments like the one I just described where it's it's so deeply ingrained in the culture that the default setting is to just not attach a name or under an understanding of accountability at the low, low level. So that's the first thing. It's just throughout the culture. And then the second thing is, though, that I'm so pleasantly surprised when people actually trust me and do help me like there was one time I was in like the small town in South Australia doing a story about I think there was a it was a memorial to a massacre against the local Aboriginal people. And somebody in government, this was a very, really big controversial conflict in this small town. But someone quietly at some point, handed me the small blue book, and he said, This is the phone numbers for everyone in this town. You can call it whatever you want. Don't tell anyone I gave. And I don't know why he trusted me with that. But I'm so grateful to those people who, who, you know, feel that they've taken a chance on me as a journalist, and I'm and that surprises me, because it's so rare, unfortunately. Yeah.

Dan Ilic  25:49  

Great. And what was the diplomat? What was he saying to you? Was he saying stuff? Like, you know, we sell a lot of shape in Australia.

Damien Cave  25:56  

You know, he was like talking about like other leaders and like things that were totally part of the public record. Like, I think he maybe he thought he was saying these brilliant things, but I'd heard all of it. But

Amber Schultz  26:06  

how much that has trickled down to normal conversation for I'll have dinner with a friend and they're just talking about the average Wednesday and they'll stop themselves and they'll be like, this is off the record.

Unknown Speaker  26:17  

Yeah, exactly.

Damien Cave  26:18  

That sense of self importance to I guess it's part of the secrecy thing. It's like whatever I'm doing it. I think it helps people sort of feel important to feel as though the menu for a restaurant might be secret.

Dan Ilic  26:27  

All right, great. Well, I'm looking forward to the next secret spilled by Amber Schultz.

Amber Schultz  26:38  

Last week, I went to this really glamorous event called the midwinter ball. So for those of you that don't know it's in Parliament, and it's an opportunity for journalists to cosplay as stage three tax cut recipients. We all go and the whole point of the event is to suck up to politicians and staffers and lobbyists. But what's weird is the entire thing as soon as you step through those doors, the entire event is off the record. It's all secret, which why you would have an event invite journalists and keep it off the record bewilders me it's not an ACO meeting. It's not an August meeting because if it was Scott Morrison would have leaked the Testaments and it's not despite what Senator Sarah Hanson young seem to think Met Gala event is the parliamentary ball. You know, Australia is addicted to secrecy. We've got witness que je lawyer X, you know, it sounds like a wiggle soul was Scott Morrison's ministerial appointments, whistleblowers a silence secret midwinter ball speeches, it's absolutely absurd. freedom of information requests in Australia across the past decade, have been rejected 50% year on year, those that are accepted, which is rare, but those that are accepted return pages upon pages of redacted information, so you just get a wall of black and it makes trying to figure out what the hell is going on about as difficult as reading a George RR Martin novel. But well, the government doesn't want to share any information with the public. It turns out the public is really, really happy to share information with the government. Yeah, we are we're a nation of dubbers. We love snitching It's absolutely absurd. And we didn't start like this. You know, Australia is, you know, our colonial history is a nation of convicts, and obviously the convicts aren't snitching, because the ones that snitched got stay in England. Our snitching culture is the result of some really, really successful marketing campaigns. So the government really does want whistleblowers that really wants people to come forward with information, provided, you're coming forward with information about Gen three doors down. So the first marketing campaign was Crimestoppers that started in the 80s. And that's been really successful. There's like 350,000 Tip offs per year. And about half of those actually result in a police report, which is hugely successful. And then of course, 911 happened and the government decided we need a national security hotline, we need something more tailored to terrorism. And conveniently, a lot of these national security hotline campaigns were released during elections because nothing else buys a vote like fear. So we had the if you see something, say something we had Be alert, not alarmed, and we had if it doesn't add up, speak up, we moved from loose lips sink ships to spy on your neighbor. It's normal behavior. But you know, a lot of these national security tips obviously a steeped in racism and prejudice. So Australia, we are trying to be better we are trying to be, you know, less divisive, more inclusive. So COVID presented a really fantastic opportunity of that because it meant we could dive on our neighbors regardless of race or background or socioeconomic class. It's progress, really. There was one example so there was so many people calling the police on one another often for really, really trivial things. One example was woman she's sitting home and she sees a photo scrolling through photos and she sees one where she looks absolutely shredded in her bikini from a holiday a year ago. She decides to post it on Facebook and suddenly the police are at a door. One of her Facebook friends saw that photo thought it was current and called the police on Yeah, that's how much we love snitching you know and you're worried about Zuckerberg spying on you. It's not so good for your old high school friend from 20 years ago. You know, we love snitching we have a dubbing hotline for almost everything. We have Dobbin a dealer that was launched in 2016. And DUBNER dealer has actually seen since the campaign launched, the number of people calling up about dealers double it's been really successful. Unfortunately, unfortunately, a tip off about AFLW style way Macquarie's dealer turned up nothing but crushed up bags of ibuprofen. It's a real hit and miss. We've got the job seeker Dobbin hotline which was cruelly caused it's not funny.

Kate McClymont  31:07  

Scott Morrison was ringing constantly.

Amber Schultz  31:12  

Which was currently called Adobe and Adobe Lightroom. Now that wasn't actually as successful because people didn't, you know, didn't really like the idea of dubbing in someone on the doll. But the people that did complain was small to medium businesses who said people that had applied for their jobs had lied on their CV, which is really funny because it just means the public is looking to John Barilaro. And taking a bit of a we also were used to we don't know, but we used to even have a hotline to dub in mislabeled seafoods. That's how much we love dubbing. Yeah. Yeah, there was a specific one for mislabeled seafood. Wow.

Damien Cave  31:47  

Sounds like a micro detail.

Scott Morrison  31:50  

RAM sticks.

Amber Schultz  31:53  

So tip offs and Dobbins are a dime a dozen. I mean in this economy, who knows, but really a diamond doesn't. So while you can't know what subpar jokes Albanese staff wrote for him at the midwinter ball speech he can know about that job interview, you didn't show up for you know, he can know about that crushed up bag of ibuprofen you bought, or he can know about that weird photo you posted on Facebook. So while the government you know, wants information from you, but only wants really, really trivial trivial information, you know, try snitching about something of importance and you know the thing snitches get stitches closed or prosecution

Dan Ilic  32:37  

and, you know, it costs money to do foi stuff. But what's the most you've ever cost Crikey. In your career as a journalist,

Amber Schultz  32:48  

I probably set a record for the fastest lawsuit from a new hire because I hit three days and immediately got a consent notice. So, you know, I don't know if you know this. But Craig, he has a very long rich history of being sued for defamation. So I was proud to join that on day three.

Dan Ilic  33:05  

It's kind of interesting, like you're talking about midway to Boulder, and the inverse, the immediate comparison is the White House press correspondents dinner in DC and which is like public broadcast celebrities, everyone wants to go to it. It's like, if you're a leader and you're at that event, you are going to get roasted and you if you if you fuck up on stage, you're going to eat it in front of everyone. It's like that is like the absolute icon of like that when you look at both countries, Australia and America, that's like transparency back to back

anytime you are looking at America with respect and thinking like that they are more relaxed than us. Like, we need to have a good hard look at ourselves. It's like secret dinners for the whatever for the President and wave laws. Like what are we doing? Yeah, but it's weird those because we there's a not a bowl but there's a annual invite by ABC employee like the a bunch of ABC employees get basically instructed to go down to Parliament House and kiss the ring to suck up tour, isn't it? Well, yeah. And so one no, well, one year I was told to go down and as you know, the face of youth as I was back then and and it's so weird because obviously all politicians hate young people. So they were just like, get the fuck out of here. But then they everyone was like all of the ABC celebs out there trying to like impress you know, someone who would give us money and they didn't give a shit until b one and B two came out. And those politicians were fucking bananas. Like they were all grabbing photo like they were so excited. We're just like, well, I just wouldn't got drunk with Costa

those politicians weren't obviously from Fitzroy. Exactly. And but when you're around Parliament House lately, can you tell If there's like a tone changed since the new government is coming like is there, is there a different feeling around the press color?

Amber Schultz  35:07  

There is I mean slightly. We've got the little, like little postcards that have the one 800 parliamentary support services number on it, but that they're everywhere. But aside from that, the only difference is people constantly if anyone like gets too close or accidentally brushes past someone, someone will yell Jenkins about the only difference.

Dan Ilic  35:28  

That's great. It's easy to make fun of the press gallery for kind of hypocrisy. They're under pressure from the government. It it's kind of interesting to see over the last couple of years how news reports have changed, particularly under the Morison government I don't know if you've noticed. Here's a clip from Channel 10 News.

Unknown Speaker  35:48  

Here are the headlines approved by the Department of Communications on 10. The Royal Commission into how good is Australia has found that Australia is very good and colder than many estimates predicted. The Department of Fair go agrees with the findings saying that Aussies are getting fair a goes and more goes than ever before. And Australia's most prestigious honor the Order of Australia is having a makeover with a brand new category added to the list. So move over items and AM's there's a new metal on the podium. It's the QA, which will be awarded to the most quiet Australian and that's someone who excels at showing complete disinterest in the affairs of government and goes about their day unquestioning the world around them. Nominations are now open. So good luck to everyone. And in sports, Australia's cricket team are the best and they will win the ashes if any of the current deliver want to see the loved ones again, turning to the weather, despite what it looks like out of the window, it is fine. And definitely average temperatures for this time of year. Definitely not white hotter than usual. That is, of course all the approved news for now in the greatest country in the world. And remember, it's on Australian to not have private health insurance.

Unknown Speaker  37:09  

Ladies and gentlemen,

Dan Ilic  37:10  

please give it up for Kate McClymont

Kate McClymont  37:19  

Right, I'm going to give you some tips tonight on how to avoid me. So I find now that often when I ring people up, I can hear them and I say, oh, it's Kate McClymont. Here, I can hit and go. But anyway, if you want to be secret, one of the things I want to advise you is not to buy a voice distorter. So I did have someone ring up to give me some very highly confidential information. And they've gone to the trouble of buying a voice distorter and it did sound like a crazed robot. But the information was absolutely fabulous. And I said at the end of the conversation, thank you so much. And now I can get you on this number for safe forgotten. Voice distorter that number still came up. Don't buy voice disorder. And too. If you want to remain secret, please use Australia Post snail mail, it's still the best way to send things. However, if you are one of the bead family, and you are sitting there sending me death threats, please wear gloves. Your fingerprints were on the envelope. And on the inside. So gloves if you really don't want to be. And one other thing I'd like to advise Eddie obeyed was in the past. When I rang his office to get some questions. He forgot to hang up. The phone on and I listened for 20 minutes, as they discussed how they were going to lie to me what they were going to say. And in the end, I had to call in on the office spoke. And I said look, Eddie, it's been so lovely hearing you talk about me. It's been so lovely hearing your plants. However, I really need a comment and I just heard them go off. They hung up. Another thing is that when a major crime figure has died, don't go behind the crypt at the funeral to discuss where the money is. This happened at many Macpherson's funeral, and I'd already been threatened so I thought I would hide behind the crypt. But on the other side of the crypt was Lenny McPherson solicitor, who was chatting away about where the money was hidden, what companies they had. So that was very handy. And having said those things I Do want to just take one moment to say that I am also an idiot when it comes to, you know, giving my own things away, Louis reminded me today that I accidentally sent a pin with my location on it to the head of the Hells Angels. Caitlin climber is here. Not so good. Then I sent a photo of my ear. How would you take a photo of your ear and send it, but I sent that to one of my colleagues who thought I, somebody had cut it off. And I was like, and then the last thing I did was that I did have my phone in my pocket. And I sent a whole lot of gibberish to Twitter. And people contacted me saying, should they call the police? Had I been kidnapped? Had I been kidnapped? And was this a secret cry for help? So I would just like to say that I too, like many of the criminals I cover am an idiot

Dan Ilic  41:10  

Do you ever feel honestly feel like your life is in danger?

Kate McClymont  41:16  

I always take the one of my contacts who was a detective said to me, Kate, don't worry about the ones that threaten you. It's the ones that don't. And I did get a death threat death threat delivered to my house and that did have 303 on it. And I said to my husband what that's actually our address 303 And he said it's a rifle, you idiot. And it doesn't help when you don't actually understand that you are a threat to your own house. Oh,

Dan Ilic  41:47  

so if we were to send a death threat to you, what's the best kind of

Kate McClymont  41:53  

with the with the fingerprints? And what

Dan Ilic  41:55  

is the best way to actually stay secret from me rather than you know all the mistakes? But like, How does someone? How does someone truly avoid Kate McLemore?

Kate McClymont  42:03  

No, it's very hard. Because the first thing I do is, if you come across my radar, the first thing to do is don't behave badly. That's how you can avoid me. But the first thing I do is I will do an ASIC search. If you have a company, I will find out how old you were where you used to live, whether you've got a mortgage on your house, how much you paid for your house, who lives next door who lives on the other side? What is your phone number? So

Dan Ilic  42:30  

is there like other ways that you do that publicly available?

Kate McClymont  42:35  

Just expensive. It's just expensive. I think I have the sort of an ASIC addiction in poker machines. I have that thing of doing an ASIC search, and my heart is racing. I'm waiting to find out who was in that company with that person. I love it.

Dan Ilic  42:53  

Some people pay for Paramount plus Did you ever pull up video bed and try to read negotiate a mortgage.

Kate McClymont  43:03  

Last time I did ring him up. He said to me, you put one word out of line and I will go for you. I will go for the jugular Have a nice day. So

Damien Cave  43:18  

most friends say Have a nice day.

Kate McClymont  43:20  

He's now in jail. And I just think having to spend eternity with your son Mosers. Punishment

Dan Ilic  43:37  

David McBride is a former military officer who served with both the ADF and British armies in Ireland and Afghanistan. And he now faces unlimited years in jail after exposing cover ups of war crimes committed by Australians in Afghanistan, yet he did not get invited to the Queen's commemorations.

Unknown Speaker  43:55  

Everyone please welcome David O'Brien.

Dan Ilic  44:03  

David with unlimited jail on the cards, it must play havoc with your psyche. How you preparing?

David McBride  44:12  

It's quite a useful terms. At first, when I was first going to court and at a legal aid lawyer, I met a guy who was a lifetime prisoner with tattoos all over me. And he was like, I'm gonna give you some tips when you go to jail, but I was like, Okay. And he said, you know, you got to keep it very tidy because some people's homes and he said, you know, said what's your cover story going to be? I said, Well, why cover story? I'm, I'm a whistleblower, and you know, fighting the government. I can't see what's going to beat me up and he was like, no, no, no. He said, they're gonna beat you up. He said, he said, I might even understand what a whistle blower is. He said, I thought was you I'd say you killed your sergeant. And I made a mental note. I thought I'm gonna get a bigger tattoo. And then And then he said, Well, how many years you're facing anyone? I said, Well, it's unlimited. And he said, What do you mean? I said, it's unlimited. And he said, Well, what? 500 years? I said, yeah, maybe 800? I said you possibly if they just had a bad day? Who knows? And he was like, you're going to do all right. He said, they might give you a double sell. So that was one of the

Dan Ilic  45:24  

opioids. When you went through the process of, you know, whistleblowing, did you ever think, oh, geez, I wish I hadn't had exposed the war criminals. Yeah,

David McBride  45:37  

I know, I never thought that I must have been, I never thought they were low. In the position I'm in now, where it looks like, you know, I could be going to jail for a long time for doing what I thought was the right thing. But I do sometimes think I've got to sue Hollywood, flick back, he gives me these ideas. Somehow that was the right thing to do. When actually, it was obviously a very dangerous, like

Unknown Speaker  45:58  

a few good men that lets me maybe

David McBride  46:01  

get a big class, I could be the richest person to jail and never get to be able to spend that money.

Dan Ilic  46:06  

The sad thing is like, if you sell your story that goes really well, as a feature film, that would be terrible.

It's quite remarkable what you've done. It's a it's a real act of service for democracy. And it's really astounding, that we all know what, you know, our defense force has done on our behalf. And I think we're all better off than knowing that Does your family know that your hero

David McBride  46:35  

could ever be a hero to your family. And I've tried to, I tried to try to pull the hero card a couple of times that they kids, when they're playing after they kind of want this, they want more money for the dress or something. And I'm like, Look, it's it's pretty hard for me and I am standing up for what is right and for your future and your children's future. And, and they go roll their eyes and they go dead. That's all very well when you get to get an actual job. So it doesn't cut my job. That's for sure ever with my ex wife. And I was like, telling her about try to break the news to her that the cops could be coming in numbers. I'd had secret documents that I was like, Look at Skinner, for taking on the Defence Force. And she was like, Oh, that's wonderful. Darlings was good. The falling and nails. And then I'm like I tried to make she didn't seem that impressed. I'm like, I'm really taking on the whole government that she's like, oh, yeah, that's good, darling. And I'm like, she wasn't very impressed. And I was trying to get a bit of hero. Record here. I create exactly what you think you get. And I'm like, an effectively because orchestrate everything I'm really taking on the American government and the CIA. You're upping the stakes. Yeah, I'm

Unknown Speaker  47:56  

trying to get a bit of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

David McBride  47:59  

She's looking at a little bit of rough nails going on. It's nice, darling. She said, But I remember I've got Pilates tonight. So make sure you're home to pick up the kids job.

Dan Ilic  48:10  

Yeah. When you're going through the process of whistleblow. What's the most absurd thing that you kind of encountered in with the authorities? You know, what's, what's the craziest thing?

David McBride  48:20  

There's a lot that this is, you know, I went through all the secret files when I decided something was very wrong. And that offense was and I spent about six months working at night, looking for incriminating documents. And I got download them all and gave them to the ABC and said, Look, these ones, they're all selected. They're all I've highlighted the sections. Anyway, I knew these documents very well. And I'd selected them and that's why I'm facing trial. But when I was on trial, they used to take us into the Attorney General's office and especially as with all the documents were extensively to prepare our case. We're security guards and tourney generals, people watching us prepare our case in secret. And the documents were there and they were like to put it to me, he can't look at the documents because he doesn't have a security clearance at least classified and I'm like, I know what's in the fucking the documents I stole. They're like no, no exceptions. You can't look at them. And so then they these documents is precious documents. And as the time went on, I had to move them around in a safe the security guards would come around. And I think they got sick of it at one time. They had to call us up and said well, you can't have the documents today because the consignment order got mixed up and they've you know, gone to a double glazing office and we're trying to get them back as soon as we can.

Kate McClymont  49:53  

Do they arrested double glazed

Dan Ilic  49:58  

the rest of the Korea they came back and now framed Well, David, thank you for joining us. I hope we can get you again soon before at least before or after

Lewis Hobba  50:18  

everyone understand that no, fuck yeah. That's right. We're about to get dangerous. This guy's standing up. Okay. Now secrets. We all have them. People on this panel they don't like a much zeal for disclosure is almost religious, but I'm an agnostic member in the church of full disclosure bit like the actual church. Boy, do they have some secrets? Of course some secrets deserve to be revealed. But be honest. Every now and then. A journalist uncovered something and you think to yourself, wish you hadn't told me that? Like why is it that we still don't know if the Queen killed Diana, but we do know that King Charles wants to be his wife's tampon didn't help me to know that hasn't stopped him being king. What's the point? You've just made me sad? I don't want to know these types of secrets. Oh, I haven't been out asleep for years because of this. But people like you had to go digging around. You know, when this whole thing broke the other nationals MP who thought that Barnaby should be sacked for cheating on his wife was this guy. And then you know what secrets the damn journalists found out about him. They found out that he'd been chatting to a woman who wasn't his wife using a sugar baby website. And that could have been enough. You could have stopped there. But no, you had to tell me the sex heroes. Do you remember this? When the woman said that she liked her Australian accent and he wrote I pull your clothes. Run my strong hands down your back. Softly kiss your neck and whisper get a mate

I still shudder every time someone says g'day to me. I can't you journalist has put out an article every week that says old men still gross. This specifics are ruining me. And it's not just the gross secret. See, though, like this week, someone discovered that a glazier in Chile had collapsed. No, keep that to yourself. You know, I know climate change is happening but I can't stop the glaciers from falling in Chile. I'd love to but I can and it's stressing me out. Some things are need to know right? But some things I don't need to know some things. I just need to know that the people who need to know know you know. You can just leave me out of it. Like journalists need to remember that snitches get stitches. He is a dangerous idea for you, Zipit knowing everything that's your interest. It's a great hobby. Keep it to yourself. Oh, great. You found out that the Prime Minister had 10 Secret jobs and gave out hundreds of millions of dollars. So they were basically bribes. Oh, good. Good. Now I'm confused and angry. Oh, great. We found out that dead shit politicians getting paid millions to move overseas when they get chased out of their current jobs here for being shitted them. Oh, great. Well, now I have to think about that. Well, I have to go to my poorly paid work and be competent. It's killing me. I think every journalist should be restricted to one secret per annum. On your birthday, you can tell me one secret as a treat 364 days to plan your next one. Just give me a chance to recover. And you want to be a whistleblower? Great. You can only blow one whistle at a time. I don't want to be told any more about all people secretly fucking their staff or publicly fucking the planet. Like I want to know the secret to cooking a good pizza at home. One that tastes as good as a restaurant. How do they do it? I want to know the secret to ordering clothes online that fit me the first I just want to know the secret to not being anxious all the time. And I think that starts with not knowing This stuff. Thank you.

Dan Ilic  55:02  

Thank you Liz. That is it for rational Phoebe kinky for our guests. Dylan Lewis and Damien diamond MacDrive also big thanks to Robert mark our new patreon supporters Kelly Katherine Jenny the new work Daniel hobby Cecily Hardy Beck flight the official Avengers it has taken Brandon Aptech and our tech team here. Until next time, there's always something to be scared of Good night. Your fear is rational

Dan Ilic  0:00  
Oh, hello everyone. Yay round of applause We haven't even done anything. It's it's fantastic.

Joy. We're recording a live podcast of our show. So you are an integral part of the show. So it's important to clap and cheer and laugh at all the jokes no matter the quality of the jokes. Yeah, that's right. Yes. Like,

move that person to the front. Yeah. Well, we've got a seat down here for you. Particularly at the top. At the very start of the show. Dan likes to start the show with three big jokes. terrible jokes very, very in quality.

And they are wafting. Terrible, yeah, really.

Lewis Hobba  0:42  
For his sake. I beg if you clap, and she just pretend they're really good.

Dan Ilic  0:49  
It's a format point of the show. We want to we want to be as close to the weekly as possible.

Lewis Hobba  0:56  
It's gonna be a really fun show. This is an incredible house. And let's firstly just give it a huge round of applause. Yeah. Carriageworks festival dangerous idea.

Dan Ilic  1:03  
Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm Dan. And I'm Louis. Yeah. And we'll introduce these folks in a second. All right, great. I'm recording my end of irrational fear on Gadigal land in the urination sovereignty was never seated when at a treaty. Let's start the show.

Simon Chilvers  1:17  
A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, Canberra, fed gum, and section 40 of a rational fear recommended listening by immature audience.

Dan Ilic  1:31  
leaked documents show that top defense officials were kept in the dark about submarine contracts. When asked about it, Scott Morrison said he wouldn't talk about ongoing underwater matters.

And in order to increase transparency Anthony Albanese auditor or government ministers to leave their dream journals unlocked. And Governor General David Hurley becomes a Patreon supporter of irrational fear. No jokes. He is the best Governor General ever. Viva la Governor General. It's the 17th of September 2022. And you'll if you're listening to this it means I'm in a secret prison in Tuggeranong. This is a rational

irrational fear on your hosts former sovereign Daniel itch and this is the show live at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas. This is the podcast where we make fun of the toughest topics because you know if we don't we try. Let's meet our fear mongers for tonight. She's been uncovering lies in Sydney for over 25 years. Tonight we'll ask her for her tips about how to lie to her face. It's the host of Leia Leia, Kate McClymont.

Now Kate is not what we're talking about tonight. But everyone in this room wants to know did the husband do it?

Kate McClymont  2:55  
Oh, you haven't left me with a foot to stand on.

Dan Ilic  3:00  
Don't be fooled by this man's accent. He's so Australian. He makes the rest of us look like immigrants from the New York Times it's Damien caves. Damien when it comes to learning about Australia, is this something you haven't quite mastered yet?

Damien Cave  3:15  
You know, I just discovered what it means to have a smoker still there.

Dan Ilic  3:22  
And she's covered everything this year from Canberra to Kyiv tonight will be her toughest assignment yet, please give it up for Amber shocks.

And as a cranky journalist who is more transparent Russia or Australia

Amber Schultz  3:39  
spends the metrics transparent about body composition that's transparent about ability to succumb to peer pressure. That's elbow.

Dan Ilic  3:49  
And he's the former Australian Defense Lawyer turn whistleblower now professional panel guest is David McBride. David, is there anything funny about the being the enemy of the state?

David McBride  4:04  
Well, it certainly makes your dating life a lot better. Say, Oh, I'm a lawyer. They're like, Oh, sickness, my boyfriend. You say I'm facing unlimited time in jail. You must be

Dan Ilic  4:22  
really up for a one night stand.

Very day. And he's a government employee who's seen too much. And he's come here tonight to say enough is enough. It's Louis harbor. Lewis some. What secrets will you be revealing tonight?

What secrets? Yeah. Gosh, I'm gonna tell you. I can't What can I tell you who's gonna win the 100 100 next? The audience here would probably really care about that. All these

people are aging into the demographic. And he's on the paths and paths tonight is still in vain for the news fighters podcast.

Oh, this is great. Well, what a stellar lineup, we have got more influence and power on this panel than inside Scott Morrison's head. It's very exciting. And I don't blame him for signing up for more than one job. There's, there's, of course a labor crisis going on. It's very hard to find good help. We'll have more on the Morrison ministries a little later on. In fact, we'll hear from all of our fear mongers in just a second. But first, I'm going to do a bit of a deep dive to set the context for tonight's performances. I'm here to tell a story. There's an island in the Pacific that is on the verge of autocracy, its leaders have acquired a huge amount of power over its citizens. They raid journalists are reporting on crimes the state has committed, they lock up whistleblowers, for calling out corruption. If doctors and teachers talk about the jobs on social media, they could go to jail. And they banned reporting on certain modes of transport. So where the bloody hell are you? Well, if you answer that question out loud, you could go to jail, but I say because I'm brave. I'm not a coward. It's New Zealand and we need to keep an eye on. No, it's us. It's Australia. Prior to the National Security Information Act of 2004. The top three Australian secrets were the Vegemite recipe, the Australia two winged keel and Harold Holtz post Prime Ministerial career as a taxi driver in Bundaberg. No one ever talks about it. That's it. That's all the secrets we had in Australia, pre 2004. There was, of course, our Pine Gap. But that's more of an American CSR secret. Yeah. And the only person that can lose their job if they talk about is the prime minister. Everything else? Yes. Oh, because everything else is on the table until 911, which was or in Australia's case, our 911 was the tamper crisis. And that's when the National Information Security Act came in. And then the She'll be right. No walk and fairies version of Australia was locked away in John Howard's basement never to be seen again. Instead, we have a bunch of legislation that makes transparency harder than ever. The National Information Security Act is one thing up is the big one. Okay. Anything deemed by the government that is of a national security risk can't be reported on or it can't even go to court. And if it does go to court, you'll never hear about it. Like the case of witness J discovered in 2019, a person who was secretly jailed in the ICT, we don't know their name. We don't know their crime, their sentence or what they were sentence for. The only thing we do know is what they might look like thanks to a court sketch from the secret trial. Yeah. Look around you. It could be could be any one of us and how we know they exist in the first place was that they actually writing a memoir in jail. And the AFP went and raided their cell and they were so pissed off that the AFP raided their cell to take their memoir away. They took the ICT government to court to complain about it, and then we only find out about it because a Judge Burns read it out in court. And everyone's like, what the fuck with this secret guy got from? There was witness Kay a secret trial against a whistleblower who revealed that Australian secret agents bugged East Timor Prime Minister's office when we were negotiating Castile that was in 2004. That deal got torn up went to The Hague. There's a whole deal. They got renegotiated again, and then it wasn't until 2014. Witness Kay went to trial in secret in Australia, a decade later. Now, this should be concerning, because we don't know how many secret cases there are like this. They could be 1000s. I'm not an expert. But I think we should definitely investigate witnesses a true i. Now, that's one part secret trials, right. A couple of other things you should think about is this misnamed Freedom of Information Act, because it's not free, and you don't get any information. Journalists or anyone who is interested can actually request documents from the government. But it costs a shitloads of money. And if you're a journalist, it can take forever and go past your deadline. And they're pretty much useless when it comes back. When news organizations have the resources and time to challenge the government. It's a whole process, you got to go through the Information Commissioner, the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, and then the federal court. And that process can take up to three fucking years to do that which case in our hypothetical, that journalist would have been laid off by several news organizations. But on the upside is now working inside the Prime Minister and Cabinet so they can look at all the documents they want. And then this is this is the national cabinet, a regular meeting of premiers and First Ministers and the Prime Minister. It was created during COVID to talk about what COVID Presumably, we actually don't know because it's secret. South Australia might want to change the size of their rail gauge again and ruin the dream to boomers across the country in the Indian Pacific. We don't know we need to know. We just have a minute song. So that joke.

Really excited for that. Used to be called COAG I don't know if anyone remembers this. The Commonwealth Heads of Government But it was changed for two reasons. First of all, it sounded like a brand of glue. And then Scott Morrison renamed the national cabinet that so he could basically claim that all the meetings were cabinet in confidence like the real Commonwealth cabinet, but it's not. It's just made up. Morrison just fucking made it up

Lewis Hobba  10:21  
for now he's a cabinet maker as well. He's a cabinet maker.

Scott Morrison  10:29  
That was good. Thank you.

Dan Ilic  10:32  
Thank you, sir. You're allowed to lobby. You don't have to say that was good. But I'll tell you.

There are heroes on this island like the Auditor General whose great work includes sifting through tons of Excel spreadsheets to find any anomalies exposed waste and conflicts of interest. Here's what the Auditor General has done in the last little bit. You may remember the leppington triangles sportswriting carpark roads. Yeah, pretty good. What an incredible group of public service heroes give a round of applause pretty amazing work and what was their reward? Well, the Morison government defunded the pump by $14 million. Meaning that the Australian National Audit Office can now only complete 38 audits a year 38. That's not many. I think Angus Taylor has more offshore bank accounts than that. So yeah, I don't know if you've picked up a trend here. But these secrecy laws have been around a while, but it seems like they've only been used in the last 10 years or so.

It could have gotten into power 10 years or so. Is anyone who got their theory first public ministry 10 years or so. One prominent Senior Counsel Geoggrey Watson points the day that transparency died in Australia. Here's the exact date transparency died on Friday, the eighth of November 2013. It happened at a media briefing called then by the Immigration Minister Scott Morrison, you may remember it the overnight

Unknown Speaker  11:55  
incident. What's become a vet photo of asylum seekers. I will not comment further in relation to onboarding matters. Thank you. This is a great public intro. In relation to on water matters. Have they been coming further in relation to on water matters? I think we've dealt with that question.

Unknown Speaker  12:16  
And in terms of making that judgment, if they've done something because do customer Australia, doesn't that mean that your tax base policy

Scott Morrison  12:22  
is kind of? Well, you've made a whole bunch of presumptions there, which I'm not about to speculate, maybe you can make them up for? Well, you're the one making the presumptions that may

Unknown Speaker  12:30  
be the case of the overnight incident is not resolved. And that's why more information is not forthcoming. It's an ongoing

Scott Morrison  12:35  
operational matter. And the persons that were at risk have all been accounted for. We're not going to go into the micro detail of these operational matters. What we are saying is that we rendered assistance, and all the people and all the people have been accounted for. So we can go around this for a lot longer. But that is the position. Scary what you get now, isn't it? Wow,

Dan Ilic  13:01  
absolutely wild. You'll remember that.

David McBride  13:03  
You notice Angus Campbell, before he became

Dan Ilic  13:07  
chief of the defense straight after this? Yeah, like a year later, he was a chief of talent spawn. Yeah, so if you remember, do you remember that phrase, I will not comment in relation to home order matters, man. It was unrepeated every press conference for like six months until the press got bored and stopped going to those press conferences. He was even number five on the hottest 100 of that. Which is amazing. Also, it was on afternoon game shows as well. The

Unknown Speaker  13:33  
final question was $7,000 Go to you go take a look at this picture. What's the well known catchphrase? It's an ongoing operational matter. Close Hey, I bet the audience knows what it was sadly, Scott, you missed out on the $7,000 which isn't enough to buy you a journalist. These are the happy you get anyway, tonight.

Scott Morrison  14:06  
Yeah, I didn't get a logo.

Dan Ilic  14:09  
That joke relies so heavily on people remembering birthdays catch.

Instead of showing the first competition is shown.

As Jeffrey watched an SC put it there was a hint in those words that it might have something to do with national security. But that was never the case. There was no evidence was ever produced at once the government got away with it once they got a taste for it. And that kind of secrecy is alluring and has an addictive quality. As what's inputted to me by phone, just like in sports. Once one side of the game starts cheating and gets away with it. Both sides start cheating and we're already seeing labor, hinting that they will continue on with national cabinet in secret. So this is where we are on this island today laws designed to protect its citizens instead use to protect the fragile egos of megalomaniacs. We elect. Yeah. And it seems today everything on this island is secret for no good reason as Damian cave put it in a great 2019 article titled Australian might be the world's most secretive democracy. This is what he wrote. The most recent expansion of government secrecy came last year with an espionage bill would increase criminal penalties for sharing information declassified, even if even if a document happened to be as harmless as a cafeteria menu. So the other day, I tested it out, I reached out to Aziz cafe, in the middle of Parliament House, you need a pass to get into it. Or the politicians and lobbyists go there. And I sent them a text and asked them to send me a photo of the menu and they sent it through. Fantastic and don't worry, the sources were redacted.

And in case you're wondering, they're the soup of the day is chicken. Yeah, so the guy

apparently got a problem for me to check. That's good, though. Very happy. So there we go. ever run a Festival of Dangerous Ideas, please give it up for Damien cage.

Damien Cave  16:12  
Thank you. Thanks. So when I when I wrote that article, actually, you know, people thought I was crazy, calling Australia this extremely secretive democracy. But now that we have a prime minister with lots of secret jobs, maybe it's not so crazy. And maybe it's not just a crazy American who's, who's saying it? You know, since I wrote that story, there have been many more examples, lots of which you went into. But, you know, I think it's important to recognize that it's not just Canberra that this problem exists in. And, you know, I run into it all over the country when I'm dealing with people as a reporter. And I have a small story, a small example that will show you just how much it handles some of the most important issues at the local level. Like, can we get this image perhaps the giant banana, giant caveman banana? Let me back up for a minute. So we have a newsletter that The New York Times publishes every week called the Australia letter, which is basically a reporter riffing about the news of the week with a little bit of perspective. And so one week better, Odell was a wonderful writer for us. And Melbourne said, you know, I want to write about this public art thing. It's involves bananas and frogs and, and babies, and I had no idea what she was talking about. But I figured, yeah, for sure, go for it. So shockingly, after it runs, I get this email from somebody that says the subject line is immediate removal of article. And I'm wondering what on earth this is about, right. So I look in and I see that it's about the newsletter, which makes me go back and try to understand what this giant banana he-man thing is all about. And it turns out that there was an exchange being offered between, you know, a local council in Melbourne, and John Oliver, the comedian who John basically wanted to take this lovely piece of art off the hands of Melbourne and trade, and give them basically some frogs with some legs that were open a little bit wider than his approach. And along with that, he also had some babies that had been washed up on the shore and Texas, beautiful babies like this. And so he offered to trade these wonderful pieces of art for the he-man Banana. Basha was in favor of this plan. She loved the frogs, I think. So as you can see, this was a serious job of public interest journalism in Australia's greatest interests, which is why I was really surprised when I got an email and concerned I should say, and the subject line was immediate removal of article. I mean, that's a pretty big request. We don't take down articles from the New York Times, sometimes we attach a correction, maybe an Editor's Note, but take it down, I literally can't think of a single time that that's happened. And I worry that there must be some serious flaw in what beshear had written. But no, it turns out that the person in local government had an email exchange with her about whether the dollars could go into the recycling machine. And she was quoted as saying, and this is the exact quote, I don't know what the dolls are made of. So I can't officially comment either way. She wrote that in the email that her name was attached, and that it wasn't supposed to be because she did not consent to it, and was not an authorized spokesperson for the council, this council policy, she said, so at this point, I feel kind of bad. And I'm wondering like maybe this is just the person who happened to be in the office that day. So I go out and I look on LinkedIn and I discover that her actual title is Senior Advisor for media and communications. We had a bit more back and forth by email and she said that she was when she was quoted it was always without a name. Now at no point in this exchange with special did she request anonymity not that we would have granted it but the whole thing started to feel pretty ridiculous to me. I mean, here's a person who was being paid with tax dollars to give the media information demanding an article be spiked because she kind of did her job with a weird nothing burger. Have a comment about scary rubbery baby dolls. Like really, this is how far down the rabbit hole Australian secrecy is gone. But the thing is, I'd been around and I could also see this It really wasn't just her fault, right? This was bigger than her. This council did have a secrecy policy for almost everything. And everyone, just like Australia has a secrecy default for far too many things. As Dan mentioned, it's a habit, it gets addictive. She was just following the written and unwritten rules for the world's most secretive democracy. And I was pretty sure she didn't even see the context that way. So I tried to write back to her politely. And this is what I wrote. The problem here, it seems to me is the Australian practice of withholding names. In general, if you work for a public entity in a democracy, anonymity is not assumed you work for the public at taxpayer expense. And so in the future, if you don't want to be named, please make that clear in your exchange with New York Times reporters, and we can respond accordingly. She wrote me back and said, Thank you. This has been a huge lesson for me, in terms of dealing with reporters. Now again, this was her job.

Scott Morrison  20:50  
So she was she was the senior media advisor.

Damien Cave  20:53  
Yeah, exactly. Now, I wish that this was the only absurd example of Australia secrecy default in the years since I wrote that article, but it's not. There was also the time when I filed a public records request for some insight and what kinds of things the Foreign Investment Review Board was rejecting. I started out asking for companies and industries in the countries involved for every decision, I wanted to basically know what kinds of things were being rejected from China, in particular what or not, they said no to that. So then I just asked for numbers, lands statistics for which countries had applied and been rejected. I asked for ratios of accepted investments, anything that would give me any insight into what this very important government body was doing. And they said no to all of it. They just assumed it was a national security threat, whether or not China bought a dairy farm or not. More recently, and I'll end with this, I run into a senior Australian diplomat at an event who told me a handful of mildly insightful things about Australian foreign policies. At the end of our little chat, he looked at me in the eyes and he said, You can't quote or refer to anything I told you. I told them not to worry that I've been talking to a lot of Western officials from the US the UK a whole bunch of things on this story I was working on. So the most that I could imagine doing was combining what he said with others, and referring it to something like Western officials, in his eyes when Drew wide with fear. No, I've gotten in trouble for that. I've gotten in trouble for that, too. You can't do that you just can't. And again, none of what he told me amounted to state secrets, but he was completely stressed. It was like he feared being jailed or fired or killed for saying very, very little out. And that's really the problem here. The culture of secrecy has become so dominant in Australia that it muzzles, voices and sensors, people who are responsible for this democracy. Instead of recognizing that their roles include an obligation to the public to explain why they are what they are doing is good for the country. They behave as if telling the media and the public anything is a violation of ethics. And they are disciplined with that priority in mind, stay silent, keep information private, or else. Don't make any mistake. This is an authoritarian instinct. I've seen it in dictatorships around the world, and it's toxic and contagious. It's an attitude that strikes fear into everyone and anyone who has an urge to share important information that we deserve to know. One more thing, though some figures in Australian life, perhaps that former Prime Minister perhaps another member who we've tussled with, I think in the media quite a bit named Peter Dutton, have a far worse reputation on secrecy than others. But it is not a partisan problem. It's a political problem and a power problem and a habit problem. Even after Scott Morrison took on all those extra jobs, you did not see the Albanese government immediately promised to tackle the problem of secrecy all over government. And it's not clear if the Prime Minister ever will get around to dealing with it. This is the case even though countless studies show that secrecy undermines trust in democracy and creates the conditions for corruption and mismanagement. Australians really deserve better. My hope is that someday we get to a place where every official can speak freely, including those who have something to say about a gross baby doll washing up on shore, or a banana he-man public art project and

David McBride  23:54  
I want to jump in because what you said rang true and I and I get it forget it later. But the they had a thing in the defense was about privacy, the Privacy Act, and I think people understood the idea obviously, you don't want people finding out about your sexual preference or whatever, because through some sort of a lake, but they took it very seriously. And we were in in dropping bombs on people in the Middle East. And I kid you not. There was like a senior defense lawyer. It was sort of like targeting this terrorist. It's gonna say to say a Hellfire besar they were like, I'm not sure we may be breaching their privacy guideposts the whole action

Dan Ilic  24:42  
Damian has anything else? Kind of you've been here five years. Does anything else surprise you at all now due to kind of around secrecy in Australian Government?

Damien Cave  24:51  
You know, I think I'm constantly surprised by moments like the one I just described where it's it's so deeply ingrained in the culture that the default setting is to just not attach a name or under an understanding of accountability at the low, low level. So that's the first thing. It's just throughout the culture. And then the second thing is, though, that I'm so pleasantly surprised when people actually trust me and do help me like there was one time I was in like the small town in South Australia doing a story about I think there was a it was a memorial to a massacre against the local Aboriginal people. And somebody in government, this was a very, really big controversial conflict in this small town. But someone quietly at some point, handed me the small blue book, and he said, This is the phone numbers for everyone in this town. You can call it whatever you want. Don't tell anyone I gave. And I don't know why he trusted me with that. But I'm so grateful to those people who, who, you know, feel that they've taken a chance on me as a journalist, and I'm and that surprises me, because it's so rare, unfortunately. Yeah.

Dan Ilic  25:49  
Great. And what was the diplomat? What was he saying to you? Was he saying stuff? Like, you know, we sell a lot of shape in Australia.

Damien Cave  25:56  
You know, he was like talking about like other leaders and like things that were totally part of the public record. Like, I think he maybe he thought he was saying these brilliant things, but I'd heard all of it. But

Amber Schultz  26:06  
how much that has trickled down to normal conversation for I'll have dinner with a friend and they're just talking about the average Wednesday and they'll stop themselves and they'll be like, this is off the record.

Unknown Speaker  26:17  
Yeah, exactly.

Damien Cave  26:18  
That sense of self importance to I guess it's part of the secrecy thing. It's like whatever I'm doing it. I think it helps people sort of feel important to feel as though the menu for a restaurant might be secret.

Dan Ilic  26:27  
All right, great. Well, I'm looking forward to the next secret spilled by Amber Schultz.

Amber Schultz  26:38  
Last week, I went to this really glamorous event called the midwinter ball. So for those of you that don't know it's in Parliament, and it's an opportunity for journalists to cosplay as stage three tax cut recipients. We all go and the whole point of the event is to suck up to politicians and staffers and lobbyists. But what's weird is the entire thing as soon as you step through those doors, the entire event is off the record. It's all secret, which why you would have an event invite journalists and keep it off the record bewilders me it's not an ACO meeting. It's not an August meeting because if it was Scott Morrison would have leaked the Testaments and it's not despite what Senator Sarah Hanson young seem to think Met Gala event is the parliamentary ball. You know, Australia is addicted to secrecy. We've got witness que je lawyer X, you know, it sounds like a wiggle soul was Scott Morrison's ministerial appointments, whistleblowers a silence secret midwinter ball speeches, it's absolutely absurd. freedom of information requests in Australia across the past decade, have been rejected 50% year on year, those that are accepted, which is rare, but those that are accepted return pages upon pages of redacted information, so you just get a wall of black and it makes trying to figure out what the hell is going on about as difficult as reading a George RR Martin novel. But well, the government doesn't want to share any information with the public. It turns out the public is really, really happy to share information with the government. Yeah, we are we're a nation of dubbers. We love snitching It's absolutely absurd. And we didn't start like this. You know, Australia is, you know, our colonial history is a nation of convicts, and obviously the convicts aren't snitching, because the ones that snitched got stay in England. Our snitching culture is the result of some really, really successful marketing campaigns. So the government really does want whistleblowers that really wants people to come forward with information, provided, you're coming forward with information about Gen three doors down. So the first marketing campaign was Crimestoppers that started in the 80s. And that's been really successful. There's like 350,000 Tip offs per year. And about half of those actually result in a police report, which is hugely successful. And then of course, 911 happened and the government decided we need a national security hotline, we need something more tailored to terrorism. And conveniently, a lot of these national security hotline campaigns were released during elections because nothing else buys a vote like fear. So we had the if you see something, say something we had Be alert, not alarmed, and we had if it doesn't add up, speak up, we moved from loose lips sink ships to spy on your neighbor. It's normal behavior. But you know, a lot of these national security tips obviously a steeped in racism and prejudice. So Australia, we are trying to be better we are trying to be, you know, less divisive, more inclusive. So COVID presented a really fantastic opportunity of that because it meant we could dive on our neighbors regardless of race or background or socioeconomic class. It's progress, really. There was one example so there was so many people calling the police on one another often for really, really trivial things. One example was woman she's sitting home and she sees a photo scrolling through photos and she sees one where she looks absolutely shredded in her bikini from a holiday a year ago. She decides to post it on Facebook and suddenly the police are at a door. One of her Facebook friends saw that photo thought it was current and called the police on Yeah, that's how much we love snitching you know and you're worried about Zuckerberg spying on you. It's not so good for your old high school friend from 20 years ago. You know, we love snitching we have a dubbing hotline for almost everything. We have Dobbin a dealer that was launched in 2016. And DUBNER dealer has actually seen since the campaign launched, the number of people calling up about dealers double it's been really successful. Unfortunately, unfortunately, a tip off about AFLW style way Macquarie's dealer turned up nothing but crushed up bags of ibuprofen. It's a real hit and miss. We've got the job seeker Dobbin hotline which was cruelly caused it's not funny.

Kate McClymont  31:07  
Scott Morrison was ringing constantly.

Amber Schultz  31:12  
Which was currently called Adobe and Adobe Lightroom. Now that wasn't actually as successful because people didn't, you know, didn't really like the idea of dubbing in someone on the doll. But the people that did complain was small to medium businesses who said people that had applied for their jobs had lied on their CV, which is really funny because it just means the public is looking to John Barilaro. And taking a bit of a we also were used to we don't know, but we used to even have a hotline to dub in mislabeled seafoods. That's how much we love dubbing. Yeah. Yeah, there was a specific one for mislabeled seafood. Wow.

Damien Cave  31:47  
Sounds like a micro detail.

Scott Morrison  31:50  
RAM sticks.

Amber Schultz  31:53  
So tip offs and Dobbins are a dime a dozen. I mean in this economy, who knows, but really a diamond doesn't. So while you can't know what subpar jokes Albanese staff wrote for him at the midwinter ball speech he can know about that job interview, you didn't show up for you know, he can know about that crushed up bag of ibuprofen you bought, or he can know about that weird photo you posted on Facebook. So while the government you know, wants information from you, but only wants really, really trivial trivial information, you know, try snitching about something of importance and you know the thing snitches get stitches closed or prosecution

Dan Ilic  32:37  
and, you know, it costs money to do foi stuff. But what's the most you've ever cost Crikey. In your career as a journalist,

Amber Schultz  32:48  
I probably set a record for the fastest lawsuit from a new hire because I hit three days and immediately got a consent notice. So, you know, I don't know if you know this. But Craig, he has a very long rich history of being sued for defamation. So I was proud to join that on day three.

Dan Ilic  33:05  
It's kind of interesting, like you're talking about midway to Boulder, and the inverse, the immediate comparison is the White House press correspondents dinner in DC and which is like public broadcast celebrities, everyone wants to go to it. It's like, if you're a leader and you're at that event, you are going to get roasted and you if you if you fuck up on stage, you're going to eat it in front of everyone. It's like that is like the absolute icon of like that when you look at both countries, Australia and America, that's like transparency back to back

anytime you are looking at America with respect and thinking like that they are more relaxed than us. Like, we need to have a good hard look at ourselves. It's like secret dinners for the whatever for the President and wave laws. Like what are we doing? Yeah, but it's weird those because we there's a not a bowl but there's a annual invite by ABC employee like the a bunch of ABC employees get basically instructed to go down to Parliament House and kiss the ring to suck up tour, isn't it? Well, yeah. And so one no, well, one year I was told to go down and as you know, the face of youth as I was back then and and it's so weird because obviously all politicians hate young people. So they were just like, get the fuck out of here. But then they everyone was like all of the ABC celebs out there trying to like impress you know, someone who would give us money and they didn't give a shit until b one and B two came out. And those politicians were fucking bananas. Like they were all grabbing photo like they were so excited. We're just like, well, I just wouldn't got drunk with Costa

those politicians weren't obviously from Fitzroy. Exactly. And but when you're around Parliament House lately, can you tell If there's like a tone changed since the new government is coming like is there, is there a different feeling around the press color?

Amber Schultz  35:07  
There is I mean slightly. We've got the little, like little postcards that have the one 800 parliamentary support services number on it, but that they're everywhere. But aside from that, the only difference is people constantly if anyone like gets too close or accidentally brushes past someone, someone will yell Jenkins about the only difference.

Dan Ilic  35:28  
That's great. It's easy to make fun of the press gallery for kind of hypocrisy. They're under pressure from the government. It it's kind of interesting to see over the last couple of years how news reports have changed, particularly under the Morison government I don't know if you've noticed. Here's a clip from Channel 10 News.

Unknown Speaker  35:48  
Here are the headlines approved by the Department of Communications on 10. The Royal Commission into how good is Australia has found that Australia is very good and colder than many estimates predicted. The Department of Fair go agrees with the findings saying that Aussies are getting fair a goes and more goes than ever before. And Australia's most prestigious honor the Order of Australia is having a makeover with a brand new category added to the list. So move over items and AM's there's a new metal on the podium. It's the QA, which will be awarded to the most quiet Australian and that's someone who excels at showing complete disinterest in the affairs of government and goes about their day unquestioning the world around them. Nominations are now open. So good luck to everyone. And in sports, Australia's cricket team are the best and they will win the ashes if any of the current deliver want to see the loved ones again, turning to the weather, despite what it looks like out of the window, it is fine. And definitely average temperatures for this time of year. Definitely not white hotter than usual. That is, of course all the approved news for now in the greatest country in the world. And remember, it's on Australian to not have private health insurance.

Unknown Speaker  37:09  
Ladies and gentlemen,

Dan Ilic  37:10  
please give it up for Kate McClymont

Kate McClymont  37:19  
Right, I'm going to give you some tips tonight on how to avoid me. So I find now that often when I ring people up, I can hear them and I say, oh, it's Kate McClymont. Here, I can hit and go. But anyway, if you want to be secret, one of the things I want to advise you is not to buy a voice distorter. So I did have someone ring up to give me some very highly confidential information. And they've gone to the trouble of buying a voice distorter and it did sound like a crazed robot. But the information was absolutely fabulous. And I said at the end of the conversation, thank you so much. And now I can get you on this number for safe forgotten. Voice distorter that number still came up. Don't buy voice disorder. And too. If you want to remain secret, please use Australia Post snail mail, it's still the best way to send things. However, if you are one of the bead family, and you are sitting there sending me death threats, please wear gloves. Your fingerprints were on the envelope. And on the inside. So gloves if you really don't want to be. And one other thing I'd like to advise Eddie obeyed was in the past. When I rang his office to get some questions. He forgot to hang up. The phone on and I listened for 20 minutes, as they discussed how they were going to lie to me what they were going to say. And in the end, I had to call in on the office spoke. And I said look, Eddie, it's been so lovely hearing you talk about me. It's been so lovely hearing your plants. However, I really need a comment and I just heard them go off. They hung up. Another thing is that when a major crime figure has died, don't go behind the crypt at the funeral to discuss where the money is. This happened at many Macpherson's funeral, and I'd already been threatened so I thought I would hide behind the crypt. But on the other side of the crypt was Lenny McPherson solicitor, who was chatting away about where the money was hidden, what companies they had. So that was very handy. And having said those things I Do want to just take one moment to say that I am also an idiot when it comes to, you know, giving my own things away, Louis reminded me today that I accidentally sent a pin with my location on it to the head of the Hells Angels. Caitlin climber is here. Not so good. Then I sent a photo of my ear. How would you take a photo of your ear and send it, but I sent that to one of my colleagues who thought I, somebody had cut it off. And I was like, and then the last thing I did was that I did have my phone in my pocket. And I sent a whole lot of gibberish to Twitter. And people contacted me saying, should they call the police? Had I been kidnapped? Had I been kidnapped? And was this a secret cry for help? So I would just like to say that I too, like many of the criminals I cover am an idiot

Dan Ilic  41:10  
Do you ever feel honestly feel like your life is in danger?

Kate McClymont  41:16  
I always take the one of my contacts who was a detective said to me, Kate, don't worry about the ones that threaten you. It's the ones that don't. And I did get a death threat death threat delivered to my house and that did have 303 on it. And I said to my husband what that's actually our address 303 And he said it's a rifle, you idiot. And it doesn't help when you don't actually understand that you are a threat to your own house. Oh,

Dan Ilic  41:47  
so if we were to send a death threat to you, what's the best kind of

Kate McClymont  41:53  
with the with the fingerprints? And what

Dan Ilic  41:55  
is the best way to actually stay secret from me rather than you know all the mistakes? But like, How does someone? How does someone truly avoid Kate McLemore?

Kate McClymont  42:03  
No, it's very hard. Because the first thing I do is, if you come across my radar, the first thing to do is don't behave badly. That's how you can avoid me. But the first thing I do is I will do an ASIC search. If you have a company, I will find out how old you were where you used to live, whether you've got a mortgage on your house, how much you paid for your house, who lives next door who lives on the other side? What is your phone number? So

Dan Ilic  42:30  
is there like other ways that you do that publicly available?

Kate McClymont  42:35  
Just expensive. It's just expensive. I think I have the sort of an ASIC addiction in poker machines. I have that thing of doing an ASIC search, and my heart is racing. I'm waiting to find out who was in that company with that person. I love it.

Dan Ilic  42:53  
Some people pay for Paramount plus Did you ever pull up video bed and try to read negotiate a mortgage.

Kate McClymont  43:03  
Last time I did ring him up. He said to me, you put one word out of line and I will go for you. I will go for the jugular Have a nice day. So

Damien Cave  43:18  
most friends say Have a nice day.

Kate McClymont  43:20  
He's now in jail. And I just think having to spend eternity with your son Mosers. Punishment

Dan Ilic  43:37  
David McBride is a former military officer who served with both the ADF and British armies in Ireland and Afghanistan. And he now faces unlimited years in jail after exposing cover ups of war crimes committed by Australians in Afghanistan, yet he did not get invited to the Queen's commemorations.

Unknown Speaker  43:55  
Everyone please welcome David O'Brien.

Dan Ilic  44:03  
David with unlimited jail on the cards, it must play havoc with your psyche. How you preparing?

David McBride  44:12  
It's quite a useful terms. At first, when I was first going to court and at a legal aid lawyer, I met a guy who was a lifetime prisoner with tattoos all over me. And he was like, I'm gonna give you some tips when you go to jail, but I was like, Okay. And he said, you know, you got to keep it very tidy because some people's homes and he said, you know, said what's your cover story going to be? I said, Well, why cover story? I'm, I'm a whistleblower, and you know, fighting the government. I can't see what's going to beat me up and he was like, no, no, no. He said, they're gonna beat you up. He said, he said, I might even understand what a whistle blower is. He said, I thought was you I'd say you killed your sergeant. And I made a mental note. I thought I'm gonna get a bigger tattoo. And then And then he said, Well, how many years you're facing anyone? I said, Well, it's unlimited. And he said, What do you mean? I said, it's unlimited. And he said, Well, what? 500 years? I said, yeah, maybe 800? I said you possibly if they just had a bad day? Who knows? And he was like, you're going to do all right. He said, they might give you a double sell. So that was one of the

Dan Ilic  45:24  
opioids. When you went through the process of, you know, whistleblowing, did you ever think, oh, geez, I wish I hadn't had exposed the war criminals. Yeah,

David McBride  45:37  
I know, I never thought that I must have been, I never thought they were low. In the position I'm in now, where it looks like, you know, I could be going to jail for a long time for doing what I thought was the right thing. But I do sometimes think I've got to sue Hollywood, flick back, he gives me these ideas. Somehow that was the right thing to do. When actually, it was obviously a very dangerous, like

Unknown Speaker  45:58  
a few good men that lets me maybe

David McBride  46:01  
get a big class, I could be the richest person to jail and never get to be able to spend that money.

Dan Ilic  46:06  
The sad thing is like, if you sell your story that goes really well, as a feature film, that would be terrible.

It's quite remarkable what you've done. It's a it's a real act of service for democracy. And it's really astounding, that we all know what, you know, our defense force has done on our behalf. And I think we're all better off than knowing that Does your family know that your hero

David McBride  46:35  
could ever be a hero to your family. And I've tried to, I tried to try to pull the hero card a couple of times that they kids, when they're playing after they kind of want this, they want more money for the dress or something. And I'm like, Look, it's it's pretty hard for me and I am standing up for what is right and for your future and your children's future. And, and they go roll their eyes and they go dead. That's all very well when you get to get an actual job. So it doesn't cut my job. That's for sure ever with my ex wife. And I was like, telling her about try to break the news to her that the cops could be coming in numbers. I'd had secret documents that I was like, Look at Skinner, for taking on the Defence Force. And she was like, Oh, that's wonderful. Darlings was good. The falling and nails. And then I'm like I tried to make she didn't seem that impressed. I'm like, I'm really taking on the whole government that she's like, oh, yeah, that's good, darling. And I'm like, she wasn't very impressed. And I was trying to get a bit of hero. Record here. I create exactly what you think you get. And I'm like, an effectively because orchestrate everything I'm really taking on the American government and the CIA. You're upping the stakes. Yeah, I'm

Unknown Speaker  47:56  
trying to get a bit of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

David McBride  47:59  
She's looking at a little bit of rough nails going on. It's nice, darling. She said, But I remember I've got Pilates tonight. So make sure you're home to pick up the kids job.

Dan Ilic  48:10  
Yeah. When you're going through the process of whistleblow. What's the most absurd thing that you kind of encountered in with the authorities? You know, what's, what's the craziest thing?

David McBride  48:20  
There's a lot that this is, you know, I went through all the secret files when I decided something was very wrong. And that offense was and I spent about six months working at night, looking for incriminating documents. And I got download them all and gave them to the ABC and said, Look, these ones, they're all selected. They're all I've highlighted the sections. Anyway, I knew these documents very well. And I'd selected them and that's why I'm facing trial. But when I was on trial, they used to take us into the Attorney General's office and especially as with all the documents were extensively to prepare our case. We're security guards and tourney generals, people watching us prepare our case in secret. And the documents were there and they were like to put it to me, he can't look at the documents because he doesn't have a security clearance at least classified and I'm like, I know what's in the fucking the documents I stole. They're like no, no exceptions. You can't look at them. And so then they these documents is precious documents. And as the time went on, I had to move them around in a safe the security guards would come around. And I think they got sick of it at one time. They had to call us up and said well, you can't have the documents today because the consignment order got mixed up and they've you know, gone to a double glazing office and we're trying to get them back as soon as we can.

Kate McClymont  49:53  
Do they arrested double glazed

Dan Ilic  49:58  
the rest of the Korea they came back and now framed Well, David, thank you for joining us. I hope we can get you again soon before at least before or after

Lewis Hobba  50:18  
everyone understand that no, fuck yeah. That's right. We're about to get dangerous. This guy's standing up. Okay. Now secrets. We all have them. People on this panel they don't like a much zeal for disclosure is almost religious, but I'm an agnostic member in the church of full disclosure bit like the actual church. Boy, do they have some secrets? Of course some secrets deserve to be revealed. But be honest. Every now and then. A journalist uncovered something and you think to yourself, wish you hadn't told me that? Like why is it that we still don't know if the Queen killed Diana, but we do know that King Charles wants to be his wife's tampon didn't help me to know that hasn't stopped him being king. What's the point? You've just made me sad? I don't want to know these types of secrets. Oh, I haven't been out asleep for years because of this. But people like you had to go digging around. You know, when this whole thing broke the other nationals MP who thought that Barnaby should be sacked for cheating on his wife was this guy. And then you know what secrets the damn journalists found out about him. They found out that he'd been chatting to a woman who wasn't his wife using a sugar baby website. And that could have been enough. You could have stopped there. But no, you had to tell me the sex heroes. Do you remember this? When the woman said that she liked her Australian accent and he wrote I pull your clothes. Run my strong hands down your back. Softly kiss your neck and whisper get a mate

I still shudder every time someone says g'day to me. I can't you journalist has put out an article every week that says old men still gross. This specifics are ruining me. And it's not just the gross secret. See, though, like this week, someone discovered that a glazier in Chile had collapsed. No, keep that to yourself. You know, I know climate change is happening but I can't stop the glaciers from falling in Chile. I'd love to but I can and it's stressing me out. Some things are need to know right? But some things I don't need to know some things. I just need to know that the people who need to know know you know. You can just leave me out of it. Like journalists need to remember that snitches get stitches. He is a dangerous idea for you, Zipit knowing everything that's your interest. It's a great hobby. Keep it to yourself. Oh, great. You found out that the Prime Minister had 10 Secret jobs and gave out hundreds of millions of dollars. So they were basically bribes. Oh, good. Good. Now I'm confused and angry. Oh, great. We found out that dead shit politicians getting paid millions to move overseas when they get chased out of their current jobs here for being shitted them. Oh, great. Well, now I have to think about that. Well, I have to go to my poorly paid work and be competent. It's killing me. I think every journalist should be restricted to one secret per annum. On your birthday, you can tell me one secret as a treat 364 days to plan your next one. Just give me a chance to recover. And you want to be a whistleblower? Great. You can only blow one whistle at a time. I don't want to be told any more about all people secretly fucking their staff or publicly fucking the planet. Like I want to know the secret to cooking a good pizza at home. One that tastes as good as a restaurant. How do they do it? I want to know the secret to ordering clothes online that fit me the first I just want to know the secret to not being anxious all the time. And I think that starts with not knowing This stuff. Thank you.

Dan Ilic  55:02  
Thank you Liz. That is it for rational Phoebe kinky for our guests. Dylan Lewis and Damien diamond MacDrive also big thanks to Robert mark our new patreon supporters Kelly Katherine Jenny the new work Daniel hobby Cecily Hardy Beck flight the official Avengers it has taken Brandon Aptech and our tech team here. Until next time, there's always something to be scared of Good night. Your fear is rational

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Once in a while on the A Rational Fear podcast feed we do an interview with someone who is a leader on climate, and we've got a great get this week.

Richard Duke represents the United States of America around the globe on climate, he is the Deputy Special Envoy for Climate — his boss is former Secretary of State John Kerry who leads the SPEC.

On this episode of the Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation we chat through:

• The IRA
• Australia's place in the pacific
• Aussie Scope 3
• Global Supply Chains
• The Methane Pledge
• Guam
• Small Island States
• Patreon Questions

TRANSCRIPTION

Dan Ilic  0:00  
Good air Dan Ilic with you for the greatest moral podcast of our generation. This is a great episode. I have had the privilege of talking with America. Yes, the whole country actually, Rick Duke, who is the Deputy climate envoy for the US State Department. His job is essentially to travel around the world preaching from the Gospel of climate action, a job that considerably got a lot easier in August when the US passed the inflation Reduction Act. And then that hides exactly what it is, which is a mega climate spending spree Yeah, huge amounts of money tax credits and incentives for things like renewable energy, CCS, EVS community projects. And of course, it is not without controversy. It also opens up federal landfill fossil fuel exploration, it's a bit of a complicated story. But essentially, this whole thing, the IRA, the inflation Reduction Act, not Irish Republican Army, is essentially a huge deal for climate change, and could revolutionize America's approach for years to come when it comes to their emissions. The more I've learned about it, the more excited I am about it, and the more it will hopefully encourage other countries to do the same. Now, it is a far cry from the lip service that Australia's government has so far provided on climate action. But maybe, maybe with the US leading the way that could change a word about how we can make this podcast you know, this was kind of an expensive one, because I couldn't go to the consulate to record my podcast there. They don't actually allow people to take electronic equipment into the US Consulate. It's a whole deal. Let me tell you, and I couldn't exactly invite America into my house. It's very small country, a whole country in there. And let me tell you, the deputy climate envoy had a hell of an entourage, so I had to book professional studios, but it was well worth doing face to face. And I could only do this podcast and last week's podcast as well when we did a stupid old studios in Melbourne, because of your support on Patreon. Now, if you enjoy these conversations, you've enjoyed rational fear. If you enjoy our climate chats, please chip in as a Patreon supporter, it costs real money to make this show and I need your help. So you can chip in for as little as a cup of coffee of months. The benefit is you get unedited previews of stuff you get to see videos I'm working on. And you get a link to the discord so you can join in, in the conversations that people who make this show and also a rational few super fans are all on Discord. And we have great conversations about as Paul there. It's really, really, really good fun. And I look I know there are 7000 of you who listen to the show, which is huge, but only about 300 of you chip in so what we'd love to do this year is get that 300 to 600. And that way we could do more expensive podcasting. We recorded our conversation on Gadigal. land at the urination at a very expensive studio. Let's start the interview.

Robbie McGreggor  2:53  
Despite global warming, a rational fear who's adding a little more heart here with long form discussions with Climate Leaders. Good.

Unknown Speaker  3:06  
This is called Don't be great. Heat waves and drought greatest mass extinction moral we're facing a manmade disaster

Robbie McGreggor  3:16  
podcast, climate criminals, Jenner raishin. All of this with the global warming and a lot of it's a hoax book. Right. That's my role podcast about generation. For short,

Dan Ilic  3:31  
well, our next guest on The Greatest moral podcast of our generation is someone who's been at the forefront of culture, society, democracy, industry and corn syrup based foodstuffs since 1776. It's great privilege to have an irrational fear, one of the longest running superpowers ever. United States of America. Welcome America.

Richard Duke  3:50  
It's good to be here.

Dan Ilic  3:52  
Thank you. That is the voice of Rick Juke, who despite everything going on in the world, has spent 20 years trying to make the world a better place through global democracy and focusing on climate change. He was a special adviser on climate to President Barack Obama, a fellow at the Brookings Institute and like our many of our fellow guests, is deep in the one curry of climate policy, having cut his teeth at the Natural Resources Defense Council, but right now, he's the Deputy Special Envoy for Climate for the United States. Rick, it's really great to have you what a privilege.

Richard Duke  4:24  
It's great to be here. Thanks for making time to talk to me.

Dan Ilic  4:28  
No worries, foot like I just kind of gave a very cliff notes of your career based on your LinkedIn profile. But I don't know much about you. Can you tell me what you've done over the last 20 years? Like how did you find yourself deep in this in the climate fight?

Richard Duke  4:44  
When I was in college, I was in Environmental Studies and Economics and thinking about where I wanted to work and I kind of kept gravitating between economics and environment and the thing that is really at the Part of that nexus is climate change. And even then, with Al Gore telling the world about what to worry about, and my professors also helping me to orient on it all, it was clear that we needed to take this question more seriously than any of the others on environment. And so it was the biggest thorniest challenge and I just kept coming back to it over the course of my career,

Dan Ilic  5:25  
we ever distracted Did you say, you know, I might just try carpentry a little bit, lock up some shelves,

Richard Duke  5:30  
I was distracted by working on some of the economics only side for a while I worked for the Federal Reserve Bank of New York for a stint right out of college. I still worked in Mexico, right right out of college for a bit. But even there, I ended up coming back to related themes. I went to Mexico without a particular plan, but ended up working for the Mexican government for the summer on climate, believe it or not, so it just keeps being a theme for me. And even when I went into consulting, I found a way to focus on climate before it was really central to what management consultants were doing. And it's just been a passion kind of along the way.

Dan Ilic  6:10  
So what was there an aha moment? Was it like a catalyst moment for you? You went, Oh, fuck this, I gotta go. I gotta do climate stuff.

Richard Duke  6:16  
I don't know if it's a single thing is much is kind of the whole process of being a kid in college trying to decide what mattered and what really motivated me. And it was the sense that it was not really possible to do right by the environment unless we got the climate piece done right first. And then also, when we looked at the other environmental questions, a lot of those, at least in the US, were being managed. And so it seemed like the thing that was kind of work on done

Dan Ilic  6:45  
well, and that is that is extraordinary amount of time has passed since college. And over the last three weeks, you must be kind of doing somersaults. What an extraordinary moment to kind of have the IRA passed. Was that a big moment for you?

Richard Duke  7:00  
It was a huge moment for basically me, my family, my friends, everyone I know is pretty much over the moon,

Dan Ilic  7:09  
your family turned you and Dad, are you happy now Dad.

Richard Duke  7:15  
The two and the five year old I think are a little bit disconnected from this conversation even though they live in DC. But but it really it has been a huge deal for everyone that I work with all my friends in, in the business on climate change. And it is hard to overstate how important it is. I mean, we've all in the US been at it for 20 years really trying to get our Congress to coalesce despite all of our divisions, like since the 90s, like Bill Clinton era, kind of Exactly, exactly. Back to that date is I think, the right place to start. At that time. You know, President Clinton tried to do a energy tax as a way to get started on the problem and just got savaged for it. And then we tried to find a way forward in all kinds of different ways from cap and trade was a big one. Right? And then I was part of crafting some of the details of President Obama's efforts to do a clean electricity standard. Yeah, none of that got traction. And everything got close along the way are things got close along the way. And smaller things got done, we got versions of incentives for wind and solar done and so on. But this is the first time where we have a full package. It's comprehensive, it's durable, it's really going to make the difference. And so it's a big

Dan Ilic  8:34  
deal. Yeah, I left the name inflation Reduction Act is very climate, you know, when I think of climate, I think of reducing and inflammation. And all of those things. Yeah. Like, it's such a strange name, right? Because it feels like, oh, well, that's a clearly a name that is hiding the true benefits that this that this bill is going to bring, like, Why didn't you call it stop the heat death of the planet bill, or how it's bloody time act or something like

Richard Duke  9:00  
that, I can tell you with confidence that my colleagues in the administration would have called it essentially anything that Senator Manchin wanted to call. And I think that it was, but But honestly, the inflation Reduction Act is a good name for it in the following substantive sense. This bill will demonstrably lower the cost of living for consumers, because it is going to make it possible to get that electric vehicle that is so much cheaper to operate over the life of the vehicle that insulates you from the ups and downs of gasoline prices is going to make it possible to get a heat pump that means you are also insulated from natural gas price volatility. And that is a very kind of consumer sense of reducing costs. In addition to that, it happens to be deficit reducing and that's the kind of macroeconomics of it, that it will actually reduce inflation because it's going to take some deficit out of the system right away because it's paid for and more by rolling back some of the tax cuts for the wealthy that the prior administration put in place. And by putting in place some quite rational approaches to really encouraging companies to invest by taxing what are called stock buybacks, which something companies do when they don't want to invest. They just buy back from in stock. And this is now going to be discouraged in a way that raises money. And all that together means it cuts the deficit, and it's going to cut consumer energy costs and make consumers more secure.

Dan Ilic  10:29  
You know, when we talk a lot about climate policy, we're always talking about carrots and sticks. It just feels like the US government's just dumped a truckload of carrots on the country, and will continue to for some time, and that will make lots of people happy with as opposed to something like a carbon tax, which is very unpopular. And we've tried to have carbon taxes here. I don't know if you're aware of that. But it didn't go down. So well.

Richard Duke  10:50  
So one thing that's interesting in this bill, is that it does include a fee on methane emissions in the oil and gas sector. Yeah, right. And so there's an element in there that is, I guess, old school, and that says, Let's go stay. Yes. And it includes a whole range of investments and incentives, the way you're describing. And that is the bulk of the bill is the carrot side. And so, but it's also worth noting that in the administration has been clear about this already, that with all this in place, then it helps to allow states and cities and our own federal government to then set standards that encourage companies to step up and do the right thing, investing in everything from electric vehicles, to heat pumps, to renewables, etc. And so it is a basis for doing much more than just the carrots.

Dan Ilic  11:46  
Yeah, there's some things that the climate community not so happy with the concessions for new oil and gas and the tying of leases for oil and gas to the kind of leases that are going up for renewable energy. Are those as bad as people are making them out to be? Do you think

Richard Duke  12:03  
so? There is nothing like the legislation to force compromise. In order to get anything big done in our Congress, and really any political system, there will be compromises required. And of course, the administration wanted to do much more with this bill than in the end, we were able to on much broader topics and climate. But the good news is that on climate, we got the essence done with this bill, we got all of most important things done. And there were some compromises on the level that you're describing now, how to think about this is that there's already been a lot of analysis done that shows that it is clearly decisively the case that the benefits here from transforming our giant American economy, to clean electricity and electrified everything vastly outweigh any potential climate costs that come from marginal output from additional oil and gas related to the leasing provisions is not even close. It's there's no contest and all the credible analyses that have already been done had been very clear about that.

Dan Ilic  13:06  
So do you think this is a real time to celebrate? Yeah,

Richard Duke  13:09  
absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, we're not done celebrating.

Dan Ilic  13:14  
Is this like a global lap of victory around the world, stopping at every country go, we did it, guys, we did it.

Richard Duke  13:19  
In all seriousness, having this in place means that we can

Dan Ilic  13:25  
look at countries in the eye and

Richard Duke  13:29  
we can go into full diplomatic push to try to get everyone to join us in setting targets that are good enough to keep safe of climate within reach, and then delivering on those targets. And so we're busy doing that, in capitals everywhere, usually by zoom. Yeah.

Dan Ilic  13:48  
Well, it's so cool. It's a privilege to deal with face to face. Yeah, I think that's really remarkable, because it really would make your job extremely difficult to come to Australia and go, Hey, guys, so you need to do more and not being able to being able to say that America is now going to be doing something significant is is great. Can I

Richard Duke  14:05  
just know that this is something that is going to last? I think that sometimes people question our constancy as the United States. And I just want to jump in and talk about that, because the core of this inflation Reduction Act is a set of comprehensive 10 year tax credits for clean power for electric vehicles for clean industry, for clean buildings, and beyond. And all of those tools have strong bipartisan support. Because we have seen, let's say back in 2015, the Obama Biden administration negotiated a set of tax credits for wind and solar that were five years long and smaller, but those persisted straight through the Trump administration and delivered record years of wind and solar deployment straight through that era politically. And that, to me is proof concept that these are popular that they are bipartisan supported measures. And even though the whole bill was done on a partisan basis, ultimately, because that was the only option left the underlying elements, the substance of the bill. And climate is not something that's going to be rolled back by anyone at any time this is going to happen. And it's going to win friends over time as it happens, because it's going to create jobs, and it's going to create momentum. Right? If

Dan Ilic  15:24  
you're in a red state, and you get an electric car cheaper, or heat pump cheaper, you automatically, you know, benefiting from this bill, and your your prices of electricity go down

Richard Duke  15:32  
in picking up on that, yes, on the consumer side, but also, a lot of the development on renewables, and some of the other elements of the spill on manufacturing side and so on, are really going to benefit the whole country, and especially some of the parts of the country that are most skeptical right now. But I think once this really gets rolling, you're gonna see more and more supporters of this bill, it's already quite popular in the public.

Dan Ilic  15:55  
So for like, vulnerable communities whose water and air and it's clean now, these initiatives will clean up those

Richard Duke  16:03  
areas. Yes. And for economically vulnerable communities that need jobs, employment and better prospects, there's going to be wind farms and solar farms and all kinds of infrastructure that needs to get built.

Dan Ilic  16:15  
All right, I want to talk about Australia and our place in the Pacific. After years of being a bad actor, Australia is back kind of you know, you know, sort of, you know, sort of like, Hey, we're coming back kind of way. At least we have a 2030 target now, which we didn't have, you know, three weeks ago. What are the strengths that Australia can bring to the global conversation on climate action now, as opposed to six months ago? What do you think? What kind of pressure can we apply in our region to kind of seek more climate action.

Richard Duke  16:44  
So climate change will be determined by the major economies, the 20, major economies that make up about 80% of the world's emissions, and Australia is part of that club. And Australia is now in the game, helping to make the case to everyone, including China, which emits 30% of the world's greenhouse gases, and candidly needs to move faster if we're going to have a safe climate future, to join us in setting targets for 2030. That deliver the kind of reductions we need to hit Net Zero globally by 2050. And to solve this problem, or at least mitigate it sufficiently. And so now Australia is there because Australia has a target that I believe that it will deliver against that is straight on the line to net zero by 2050, for Australia, and so the key thing is not is it 43% or 44%, or whatever. The key thing is that it is a pace of emission reductions from today's levels, that's right on track to get to net zero by 2050. And that's what we need all major economies to join together and do. And by the way, as, as we do that, as the United States as Australia, working together, in many cases on things like electric vehicle supply chains, and so on. As we do that costs come down. And that's part of why this is happening now in the United States. And why it's happening now in Australia is that renewables are cheaper to get electricity than any other source, electric vehicles are cheaper for consumers than any other way to drive. And so that's because countries have momentum now, or more and more countries have momentum on this issue. And it's great to have Australia fully in the fold on that now.

Dan Ilic  18:22  
And one of the things we don't talk a lot about in Australia, and climate is our scope, three emissions, you know, we are a carbon intensive economy. We are we are well, one of the top three or four, depending on the globe, global conflicts of the day fossil fuel exporters, but we don't ever have a conversation about our contribution to the molecules in the atmosphere that leave our shores. How do we have that conversation with our own government? How do we convince our own government that we need to stop the export at our own economic detriment for a little bit of these fossil fuels?

Richard Duke  18:55  
If we think about how we're going to get at this problem globally, the bottom line is that it's on the demand side where the real action is what is going to cut into global oil consumption. It's electric vehicles and electrification of all transportation, in some cases, hydrogen perhaps. And as we do that, globally, including hopefully at pace and Australia now, on the demand side, then that means that there'll be less and less need to invest in and develop oil for for the world to use. And that's the way that we'll we'll see that oil will peak and decline, and we'll be able to get this done. Same thing applies for coal as we move to substitute renewables for coal fired electricity on a global basis, then global demand for coal goes down and that's how you get at this problem. So

Dan Ilic  19:48  
this is about getting doesn't get back at our customers to change as they're getting our current customers to, to change the way they are making energy,

Richard Duke  19:54  
including here in Australia where you got to see the progress pickup in order to deliver Over on Australia's new 43%, target on decarbonizing electricity, and electrifying everything. And then Australia is kind of fully part of that effort on the demand side. And then the rest follows on the supply side. And let me just say one more thing, though, which is it's going to take some time for this to play out. It's not something that happens overnight, as much as we want it to. It is going to be well over a decade of energy transition globally and more like two to three decades, if we're honest about it. And during that time, it's important that all suppliers of fossil fuels during that transition period, you know, as they taper down, we also need to make sure those fossil fuel supplies are as clean as possible. So we've got to get out the methane emissions that come from coal, oil and gas along the way.

Dan Ilic  20:45  
I'm glad you brought up methane because we do have a question without notice from greens leader Adam Bandt.

Adam Bandt  20:50  
The Pacific leaders see it when we say we're committed to climate action, and then go home and announced 10 new oil and gas fields like the Australian Labour government did this week. Will you push Australia to commit to no new coal and gas as part of us reengagement in the Pacific and for our government to adopt the global methane pledge that President Biden was championing what say you

Dan Ilic  21:13  
America, we absolutely are

Richard Duke  21:16  
encouraging all countries in the world, including Australia to join the now more than 120 countries that have committed to work together on cutting methane pollution at least 30% by 2030, and the global methane pledge. So yes, on that second part, on the first part, we are back to what I was just describing the answer to how to achieve energy transition globally, is above all else that we need to complete that journey of clean power and electric electrification of transportation buildings and industry as the core of the climate solution globally. And when we do that we address what's needed globally on on the energy sector,

Dan Ilic  21:57  
we have this crazy thing in Australia with LNG exports. I don't know if you know about a local market here. It's absolutely bonkers, right? 80% of LNG gets exported out. And we were short of LNG for our domestic supply because of a deal that in 2002, with 2002, prices locked in for 30 years, we're getting to the point now we're actually building LNG import terminals for the potentially process of getting LNG re imported from Asia back into Australia, because it'll be cheaper than supplier.

Richard Duke  22:27  
We've seen these kinds of we got plenty of gas. We've seen these kinds of shocks all over the world in this market, including in the United States, where we had back and forth on LNG that was at a similar scale, where for while we were building LNG, import terminals, and then now we're big LNG exporters now that we're doing so much natural gas production, but I think the core answer to that question around energy insecurity is the same answer to the question around climate insecurity, which is that we got to double triple down on the transition, right, because once we get to this green power, electrified and use future then we've got both we've got climate security and energy security and one go

Dan Ilic  23:12  
on the Maytime thing. I think it's so interesting looking at the 120 countries, Bahrain is on that list. Canada, Kuwait, Nigeria, Tunisia, Qatar has signed it these are carbon economies. What is what is like what is like taking Australia's time to sign this we also know you have you gone have you gotten knocking on on Chris Bowens door and today for is popping in? Can you just sign this for me?

Richard Duke  23:35  
Let me also note that we have over three quarters of the world's top livestock and dairy producers have joined as well, which is one of the more challenging What's

Dan Ilic  23:42  
your message to Australia come on our deal with enthusiasm, message, diplomacy away, Rick, come and say something that will get me a headline

Richard Duke  23:53  
the waters warm come in? No, I look it's it's it's a it's a crucial conversation for us to all join in. Because you got to take seriously that half a degree centigrade of today's climate change is caused by methane. And there's just no faster way to manage our near term climate future than to cut methane pollution. And we're not on track globally to be clear, methane emissions are increasing 10% Over the next decade on the current trajectory. So we don't just need people to join global methane pledge what we need, above all, and I believe Australia is headed in this direction is to join us in the pledge but do the work. And and that's, I think, really where we are focused and we're making headway on that. I want to just note, President Lopez Obrador of Mexico joined President Biden recently, and committed to move on addressing oil and gas, methane in Pemex, the national oil company of Mexico's operations in a major way for the first time, and we're going to do that work together there. And we're working in Nigeria working in many geographies all at once and not just in the boss. All sector, but that's the hard work we need to do. And we want Australia to step up and be a full partner in that. Come on,

Dan Ilic  25:05  
come on. Spoken like a diplomat. Well, that's why you're the deputy climate envoy. And I'm not there was a lovely way to word that Hurry up Australia. That's how I would have said it. Let's talk about some threats quickly, when you see these global agreements of last decade, not just in climate, but Brexit falling apart, the war in Eastern Europe, what kind of threats Do you see on the horizon for a global climate, like what's kind of an unforeseen threat that we're not really thinking about for these global agreements that could, could destabilize them?

Richard Duke  25:36  
What we can say is that it's instructive to look at what happened when Russia illegally invaded Ukraine. And I think that the reverberations that are still happening, there's obviously the humanitarian crisis that it has caused in Ukraine above all else, but then there's reverberations globally that include all these shocks to energy prices, but also shocks to fertilizer, and therefore food prices. And what we are seeing on I guess, a silver lining side from that, is that the response in Europe, the response globally, is that governments see that they need to just move faster to get to the clean energy future, and they need to move faster to get to cleaner fertilizers that are things like, you know, green, green hydrogen to green ammonia, as a way to cut loose from all that volatility and from Petro state control of their economies. And so I guess that is a recent or even current example of how geopolitical shocks can intersect with climate change. But in this case, it's really causing everyone to double down on on the transition to clean energy. Now, going forward, I think the biggest threat to climate action is probably some of the global trends around what's happening in media environments and what's causing it and what what's happening to democracies. And if we're, if we're candid about it, and I probably won't be very specific in naming names. That is where we get to, yes, you

Dan Ilic  27:14  
definitely don't want to say Rupert Murdoch, is a problem for democracy. While you're in Australia, Rick, you can say that in America, but don't say it at the ABC Studios. I can say that, because I don't have any money for Rupert Murdoch. to defame. Don't you dare say Lachlan Murdoch has anything to do with dismantling democracy. Ricky's nervously drinking.

Richard Duke  27:40  
But that is what worries me is the is the whole question of kind of the undercurrent of autocracy. I think that is the toughest part.

Dan Ilic  27:49  
What are kind of the exciting areas you see for Australia in the region? Like what are the opportunities you see for you know, us as citizens of Australia, but also Australia as an actor on the on the Pacific stage?

Richard Duke  28:01  
I think there are a couple that I want to highlight one is precisely in the region, Australia is a crucial partner for us in working with countries like Indonesia and India, on accelerating their energy transition. And we're already doing that work ourselves and with other allies. And we are eager to work with Australia on making that happen at pace in those countries. And we think that's a huge shared opportunity. More on the commercial side, we are moving now to scale up a kind of North American Electric Vehicle manufacturing powerhouse. And we've been very clear, Congress has been very clear, we're gonna need a secure supply chain in that. And so we think that Australia is one of my, you know, many natural partners in making sure we've got the right kind of critical minerals supply in order to make all that happen. So that's another example. There are many others. I mean,

Dan Ilic  29:05  
that's so interesting, because Australia is rich in minerals, we do have a lot of particularly rare earth minerals that are part of the new economy. But we don't do any processing here. You know, there's, there's none of that there's there's all that happens in Asia, is that an opportunity for Australians to kind of take that part of the supply chain and, you know, be a kind of a powerhouse in processing those kinds of minerals here.

Richard Duke  29:30  
It is an opportunity because the scale of the prize is immense. I mean, it's not just batteries, not just electric vehicles. It's also renewables components, all these things need critical minerals, and then you've processed critical minerals. And then obviously, there's opportunities downstream and manufacturing things as well. And of course, deploying all those solutions in the Australian economy. So there's lots of work to do. And Australia has a set of key roles that it can play in At work,

Dan Ilic  30:01  
okay, I've got a question without notice from Maria Hernandez. She's a friend of mine that is from Guam.

Maria Hernandez  30:06  
Well, less than half a day, I will see Maria Hernandez me. My name is Maria Hernandez name. I'm an indigenous tomorrow mother. I'm also an environmental and cultural rights activist based in Guam, as well as its 2022 Bertha foundation fellow. My questions the US climate envoy. I'll start off by saying that one is positioning itself as a leader really in the worldwide sustainability movement. As you're aware of we're considered a highly strategic location in the Asia Pacific region. Our local government has been working toward fostering sustainable economic growth and really paying attention to climate change. Because so many islands are being impacted by climate change in the Pacific. We're trying so hard to make our island more self sustaining. But the reality is that we're in an unincorporated territory of the US. We don't have a seat at the table when it comes to US military projects that are changing the entire landscape of the Pacific. And right now 1/3 of our island is occupied by the US military, there is a massive firing range complex being built above are northern lands aquifer that provides 90% of the community with water. And access to clean drinking water is a human right. We don't want our aquifer, and our land and our and our coastal waters to be contaminated. Like we're seeing across so many communities where there's a large military presence. The example that I can think of right away is the crisis at Red Hill, in Hawaii, what they're experiencing out there, it's really a nightmare. So I asked, what steps can be taken to further reduce the military's footprint here, protect our aquifer, protect our people, ultimately, and to promote sustainability that better position our island and our region to fight climate change. CSIS. Mossy thank you,

Dan Ilic  31:59  
for Maria,

Richard Duke  32:00  
thank you for the question. You're asking questions that I don't frankly have great answers to I am outside of my domain of expertise on a lot of this. Clearly, there's work to be done in trying to answer what you posed better than I can. Look, one thing I can say is that when it comes to the Pacific more broadly, because I really can't speak to the specifics that you've raised with any with any details, it's too far beyond my expertise and mandate. What I can tell you is that we are acutely aware of the impact of climate change itself in the Pacific, and specifically for vulnerable states, like small island states, including because of sea level rise itself. And that is why we are so committed to doing this work to keep 1.5 degrees centigrade within reach. And that is why we think about it not just in terms of this whole energy transition that we've been talking about already, but also the fast mitigation complement to the energy transition, which starts with this methane work to make sure that we're cutting pollution that will control the climate in the next 30 years, and other short lived climate pollutants like HFCs. And we've got to then also invest in adaptation. So we're gearing up our prepare Initiative, which aims to get things like early warning systems around to the world so that farmers know if they're gonna get hit by a year of drought they know in advance and can at least try to do their best to manage through that. So we're doing what we can on on that front. And your excellent questions about Guam specifically, I'm just not in a good position to answer specifically.

Dan Ilic  33:49  
They are a, an island that is a colony of America. mass migration is something that is kind of at the top of my mind when I think about our islands in Australia, like Torres Strait Islanders who are losing their culture and homes, and probably will disappear in the next 15 years. Is there something in place in terms of US policy to look after folks who are from islands that are colonies of America, like Puerto Rico or Guam or other island areas to bring them to a different landmass?

Richard Duke  34:20  
Well, it is a case by case question, I will say at the highest level that I think both the United States and Australia benefit from a relatively open posture on immigration in half. So over decades, and in my strong view, both countries should double down on that going forward, because because it's in their interest to do so. In the case of Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico is part of the United States and citizens can travel back and forth at will. There's a opportunity for Puerto Rico to potentially become a state and that's a complicated question in its own right I, but I think that the, you know, the answer depends on which exact place we're talking about.

Dan Ilic  35:05  
Sure. Okay, here are some quick questions from Patreon. Many of you have already answered. So feel free to give, you know, three second answers here. First one from comedian Ben pubg. Who does your hair?

Richard Duke  35:16  
I think no one no one does your hair, including not me very good.

Dan Ilic  35:20  
This is from Sasha, we're the polarization of politics. How can a genuine bipartisan approach to positive change occur? I think this is it goes back to when we're talking about a little bit before.

Richard Duke  35:31  
What we've seen in the US is that as technology costs have come down to the point that the clean stuff is cheaper and better for consumers and everyone. And as our younger citizens have stepped up and demanded that we do more on all this, that is basically shifting the politics tectonically. So that now sure there's a there's a hardcore of kind of climate skeptics climate denial denialists. But mainly what you have is that's fading. And with this set of investment that's coming, it's going to be bipartisan, increasingly going forward.

Dan Ilic  36:06  
Spirit asks, Do America's targets include land use? Yes. LWCF?

Richard Duke  36:12  
Absolutely. We have a considerable land use sink that helps us with our climate math. And we need to and are investing in making sure we maintain the health of that. And by the way, that's going to get harder as we deal with climate impacts and wildfire. And that's a shared challenge. Obviously, in both countries,

Dan Ilic  36:29  
I read that the trees are growing in the tundra now. So you know, just keep growing that forest out there.

Richard Duke  36:34  
I guess, silver linings.

Dan Ilic  36:36  
Matthew asks how to radically reduce America's carbon footprint without sanctioning the politics of austerity. I think the IRA goes some way to answering Matthew's question there.

Richard Duke  36:47  
Definitely. I think we are on safe ground on that question right now. And it's not just the IRA. We also have a couple 100 billion dollars in investment from our infrastructure investment and jobs act that's in place and starting to flow into the economy for innovation on clean energy and climate solutions. And then there's even in our semiconductor bill called the chips act. There's opportunities on climate there. So we are investing. We are not practicing austerity on climate right now.

Dan Ilic  37:14  
And this is a fun question for me. There are rumors that your boss might be retiring. Can we have the exclusive to announce that you'll be taking over from John Kerry? No comment. Well, Richard, it's absolute privilege to sit face to face with you and talk through these issues. I've never met a super bow before, but it was really fun. And I hope I hope I get to see you again in the future and pose more questions to you.

Richard Duke  37:38  
Thanks for hosting me and please come to Washington. We can have a pint. That'd be great.

Robbie McGreggor  37:44  
GM Pooh Bear greatest moral podcast of our generation.

Dan Ilic  37:48  
Well, they haven't. We had 30 minutes with America. And we covered a lot of territory in that 30 minutes. And it was really good fun. I hope to do it again sometime soon. Big thank you to the US State Department for hooking that up. Also, big thanks to Maria Hernandez from Guam. And our friend Adam band over at the greens for their questions are really curly questions there for America. Also, big thank you to Jacob brown on the Tepanyaki timeline for jamming this podcast together. If you love what we do at irrational fear, please head on over to patreon.com forward slash a rational fear and shipping. It's three bucks a month, five bucks a month. Keep the show on the road. Right now. It is extremely helpful to pay the bills to put this show together. Also, if you love us on stage, please head on over to the Festival of Dangerous Ideas. We're back on stage September 17 talking all things secrecy in Australia. And that's a huge lineup, David McBride, Amber Schultz, Kate McLemore Damien cave from the New York Times as well as Louis Hobart and myself, unless September 17, at the festival dangerous ideas, it's gonna be really funny show just started putting it together this weekend is going to be stupid and good. And also you'll learn a lot and I've also laugh a lot and also be so shocked as to how fucked up Australia is. That's the remit of this show, isn't it? It's amazing, irrational fear. We that's what we do here. Anyway, thanks for listening. We'll see you speak to you next week.

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Dan is eating his way through Melbourne's cafes — so this ARF is recorded face to face from Stupid Old Studios.

Is a cracker covering Labor Climate Catastrophe, the dance moves of the Finish Prime Minister, the Murdoch's suing Crikey, Russia's new ad campaign and #DadVsAdani

Fearmongers include:

Kirsty Webeck
Sam Petersen
Alice Tovey

Host Dan Ilic

Interview Guest: Ben Pennings 

See more about Ben's campaign against Adani below. 

SUPPORT BEN PENNINGS CAMPAIGN:

#DadvsAdani

Adani is after the suburban family home of Brisbane dad Ben Pennings, suing him for $17m in the Supreme Court for peaceful protest action. They even followed his wife and kids around. Support #DadvsAdani to protect the freedom of all Australians.

Donate to the legal fund - https://tinyurl.com/yc5zwxkn
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Dan Ilic  0:00  
G'day, Dan Ilic here. Guess what? We're in Melbourne. Yes, it's very exciting. Just letting you know before we start the podcast we've got a big live show coming up at the festival dangerous ideas at carriage works. It's a huge show all about how Australia is the most secretive liberal democracy in the world so we could potentially go to jail. It's very exciting. On the panel, Damian Kay from the New York Times Emma shorts from crikey Kate McCann from the Sydney Morning Herald, David McBride, former Australian defense lawyer and turned whistleblower he is joining us and of course, Lewis harbor, and myself who are renowned, secretive people we don't know anything about us. So that's what's so exciting about the show seven senses of timber in Sydney. I'm recording my irrational fear on the land of the orangery in the cooler nation's sovereignty was never seen it we need a treaty. Let's start the show.

Simon Chilvers  0:46  
A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, Canberra, fed gum, and section 40 of a rational view recommended listening by immature audiences.

Dan Ilic  0:59  
Tonight after months of turmoil Qantas is apologizing to his customers by offering a $50 gift voucher The only catch is it's only redeemable on Qantas and it will be delivered to you by Qantas baggage handlers and Lachlan Murdoch is suing crikey for defamation after they allege that Fox News was somehow responsible for the capital rights. Meanwhile, anyone who reads the Murdoch press is asking what's a Crikey. And after a disastrous interview on insiders that crudely sold out his colleagues for a few extra staff Barnaby Joyce is declared patient zero for Foot and Mouth Disease. It's the 26th of August and we refuse to quiet quit this is a rational fear.

Welcome to rational fear. I'm your host disgraced celebrity chef Dan Ilic. And this is the podcast that takes the worst news of the weekend. It just sucks it down like a word is original. Let's meet our fear mongers for tonight that their cabaret queen with a sharp tongue and adult implement. Please give it up for Alice Toby Hello as well. Why do you carry that doll implement around with you everywhere you go.

Alice Tovey  2:09  
Oh, you know what they say carry a doll implement. I think that was Tim Ferguson's comedy. That's good to be here on pocket size Louis this week.

Dan Ilic  2:17  
Yeah, that's it. Yeah. CO hosting the show. How do you feel?

Alice Tovey  2:19  
I feel good. It feels right. I'm coming for triple date. But J next, Louis, if you're listening or someone

Dan Ilic  2:24  
has to be in the demographic, a Triple J they're a producer podcaster and purveyor of the souls of the guiltiest idiots around from the confessions of the idiot. Sam Peterson,

Sam Petersen  2:36  
thank you so much for having me on clip myself.

Alex Dyson  2:41  
Why are you down carrying around these confession? Everything

Sam Petersen  2:43  
goes all the way down by the instrument that we spoke about before? Yeah, no, it does it. I have to now go on Reddit once a week and look up for online confession. But I have to go through about 100 to get to those four. So a lot of stuff that I don't bring to the podcast is the worst sort of stuff that could possibly have a domain today. And I'm reading through a lot of that. So

Dan Ilic  3:03  
can I propose the confessions of the idiots up late?

Sam Petersen  3:07  
I don't think anyone could handle it. And they're a business

Alex Dyson  3:08  
genius with a master's degree in fine laughs It's Kirsty Wait.

Sam Petersen  3:15  
Did you get stressed?

Dan Ilic  3:18  
me because I went through a couple of your old tweets this afternoon. I thought this was a genius idea for a TV show. Tell us a little bit about help. I'm a celebrity. Get me in there.

Kirsty Webeck  3:31  
Oh my gosh, it's such a bad idea. But the pitch is that you get a bunch of celebrities and that's in inverted commas, like Australian style celebrities. And they're in a really long queue. Places that are famous for long queues, or songs or Mama's seen

Sam Petersen  3:51  
before and after the show.

Kirsty Webeck  3:53  
Especially after and they've just got to find their way to the top of the queue basically. It's a dreadful idea but I'd also absolutely watch it

Sam Petersen  4:01  
I love it. I love the comments when any of those shows where anything like that goes on all the comments are who and you'd like to get your following like Carrie big morning going who every time she posts

Dan Ilic  4:12  
what I resent is someone who's had profile for some time anytime a news article comes up about me on the Daily Mail was like this guy did this. This guy was on TV once. There's like a new a new TV celebrity. They're like Derek fuckface. Coming up later, we talked with Ben Pennings, a climate activist who was trying to save the world was sued by Danny for $17 million. We'll ask him does he think it's worth saving the world? But first, here's a message from this week's sponsor. The Australian Labour Party is finally in charge. But don't worry conservatives. We're not here to shake things up. Good governance means more of the same but different, more of the same petroleum exploration but not on Sydney. It's North Shore in the southern Ocean, more of the same destruction of sacred sites and song lines, but not for iron ore, for gas.

Anthony Albanese  5:07  
whatever our differences in political parties we share a love for coal seam gas drilling.

Dan Ilic  5:13  
And yes, we know it looks like we've rushed into passing a bill on climate action. But don't worry, it's weeks Pearson won't change a thing. The Australian

Anthony Albanese  5:22  
people voted for change, and we intend to give them nothing

Dan Ilic  5:27  
Australian Labor, same suits, different types. This week's first fit is brought to you by our sponsor, the Labour Party more of the same. Now despite the end of the world being linked to fossil fuels, Australian Labour Government has just opened up a new petroleum exploration of the waters of Victoria, Tasmania. And energy companies are already saying, Hey, we should relax and the best straight operation is just going to be more of an artisanal approach and that they're just going to be drilling enough oil to ensure local apothecaries have enough scented candles. So I think that's a good a good thing. Yeah, fear mongers. This is a decision that is clearly at odds with our own climate targets of fuck all, which is at least better than what we've had, which was no fucking targets. I was Toby, how do you reconcile this decision to go drilling in the Southern Ocean?

Alice Tovey  6:16  
I think it's fantastic. I love the government's approaching the 2030 climate target the way that a teenager kind of approaches housework when their mom's busy and out of the house. They're like, Oh, darling, take the chicken out of the freezer. And then you realize it suddenly, seven years later, you've been playing Mario Kart named just microwaving the shit out of this

Dan Ilic  6:33  
cheat? Yeah, delete those paddles that you can put the pedals for a cardiac arrest. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's just it's quite, you know, disconcerting. Like I think I tweeted something like, let the disappointments begin. We've had four good weeks of hope. And now Everything's fucked again.

Alice Tovey  6:55  
Surely, and it's just adding to all the carbon capture and storage stuff that they've announced as well. So basically, they're kind of like big tubs. They're meant to like take the carbon and fuck it off elsewhere, which is great, but it's kind of just climate Reiki at this point

Sam Petersen  7:12  
could they be born with billboards? Or I'm thinking you're the billboard

Dan Ilic  7:16  
look let's just say billboards fix cars climate change last time probably will fix climate change carbon I just whenever that's when that stuff did have it. I think like that. That was my attitude was just Yeah, it's like, Guys, I fix climate change. I've done

Kirsty Webeck  7:37  
it. It's beautiful to watch. It really was a skeptic. I didn't think that you do it with the billboards. And then you did What do you mean like in New York? Or yeah, I didn't I didn't think you'd solve climate change with

Sam Petersen  7:48  
I don't think it was like we didn't actually go through with the bill. We thought we'd take the money and

Kirsty Webeck  7:54  
go through with it. I just I was like, surely that won't solve the problem. And then it did.

Dan Ilic  7:58  
Corrected fix the problem and that's why we can now explore for patrolling.

Alice Tovey  8:03  
And her pamphlet she's just seen.

Alex Dyson  8:08  
The Guardian reporter Peter Hanim tweeted this incredible graph from the RBA today, saying that to meet our net zero targets our colleague exports have to drop before below 100 megatons a year before 2050. But the RBA has done the projections on the current policies. And that line is just kind of soaring up into the sky. The RBA is like hey, you think interest rates is bad? Where do you see these megatrends? Go?

Sam Petersen  8:36  
Anytime I see any sort of graph now all I'm thinking about it's flattened back. It's all I've known for a very long time.

Dan Ilic  8:43  
That's it that's that would actually work. Yeah, climate action as

Sam Petersen  8:47  
well. The Financial Times.

Alice Tovey  8:50  
I love the idea of you looking at a pie chart being like two rounds.

Sam Petersen  8:55  
will never work.

Alex Dyson  8:56  
This week. Second fear putting the prime in Prime Minister news now footage of Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin dancing in her own home was late and criticized by many sectors of the world's media including Nigel Lythgoe saying it was a brave performance but she won't be coming back next week. Santa was sober everything I'm sure a lot of people don't know who that guy is. You know he's just a British judge. Look, I tried I tried my career would have testament that is actually true. Even held a press conference to say hey, what's what's the big deal? Get over your big babies. Meanwhile, footage of elbows scowling a beer at a gang of youths gig was praised in large sections of Australian media except of course, Sky News. Now firstly, we back you're a renowned, joyful person. Does this kind of behavior mean our leaders are now going to have to dance like everyone's watching.

Kirsty Webeck  9:52  
It would seem that way. I mean, Sanna Marin is like a young person having a nice time and having a life and she's got Got a job? Like sorry for having a job.

Sam Petersen  10:05  
Thank you for finally apologizing

Kirsty Webeck  10:08  
on her behalf. But then, you know, like just isn't Jacinda are doing like a DJ as well like, Well, I'm not going to tolerate that no music in New Zealand please. And then also the thing with elbow like he says Australia's Got no culture, we've got a culture do a show we make. So

Dan Ilic  10:26  
to be honest, isn't that the one thing that prevents me from running for Prime Minister's like I cannot handle the pressure of sculling appear at every fucking event, I just won't be able to do

Sam Petersen  10:35  
it. Why did it tradition, I don't even understand why people think that's so cool to be able to drink fast as a prime minister or sports as well. And all goes

Alex Dyson  10:43  
back to Bob Hawke when he was at Oxford, right? And he scoured the Jaguars. If you go to Oxford pub, in Oxford, there's this mural of Bob Hawke and his yard glass and it's less plaque that says Bob hawks set the record for scaling the

Alice Tovey  10:57  
must be some kind of prime ministerial training program to Skull beer, you think so?

Kirsty Webeck  11:04  
They receive a manuscript that says in this role now you'll be required to scope beers in public and kill the environment.

Sam Petersen  11:15  
I was just so perplexed by the whole thing, and like people tweeting the elbow thing, I was like, Oh, I don't I didn't really see why it was so impressive or something to celebrate the drinking really quickly and everything. I was like, are we still here?

Kirsty Webeck  11:27  
Yeah. It's sort of depressing. Just in the, in the whole context of like, Australia's drinking cult. Yeah. And that's been under the microscope a little bit lately as well. Yeah. And it's just it's such a weird badge of honor. And then I think the contrast between how that was dealt with as well. And then everything that's going on with the Finnish Prime Minister, too, is it's just really interesting. Yeah. I mean, there's obviously some gender stuff at play, but also just our drinking culture and the way that we salute that kind of behavior. Like, he tried to beer and it's like, yeah, great. I'd like to see effect some social and political change.

Sam Petersen  12:03  
A few hours later elbow, or go to the gang have advice for everybody.

Kirsty Webeck  12:09  
He's like, Well, I'm too hung over now.

Sam Petersen  12:13  
He's doing it himself. Although that that whole thing, but also like that she had well, she I don't know if she volunteered to get a drug test or something as well. I think it was because

Dan Ilic  12:25  
she didn't do it. She said, she said, I've never done drugs. I haven't done drugs in my childhood. Y'all get over it. Yeah. And I think that's so

Kirsty Webeck  12:31  
crazy. I think she ended up doing it. The media reported that she tested negative, right, she ended up having to bow down to the pressure, like whether or not that's true, but that's what the media was reporting yesterday.

Sam Petersen  12:40  
So we can say allegedly after.

Kirsty Webeck  12:45  
And then when the dust settled on that, then there was suddenly this photo of the two women kissing at another party. Yeah. And the finished flag and yeah, and I mean, I might be the wrong person to comment on this. But that looked like a bit of wholesome fun.

Sam Petersen  13:03  
We love getting talking about that on twitter.com.

Alice Tovey  13:06  
You and I cursed you can't run for politics. There's too many photos of us kissing hot chicks.

Dan Ilic  13:13  
In 2025, you know, society will change that will become acceptable. And we know that will be your poster. That will be let's be running. All out on the open. You can say that now you can say yeah, we've done all that. All of those pictures are on Facebook. Go get them from 2003 They're right there ready for you? Yeah, yeah,

Kirsty Webeck  13:36  
we don't really have the skeletons in the closet anymore. Do we? We've just got the skeletons on google.com readily available. You can find every bad thing I've done in my life right there. Yeah,

Sam Petersen  13:46  
I love I love mates at Ruby each other on Facebook when there's like an old post and then one of them bumps it up to the top. I'm so sorry.

Dan Ilic  13:55  
I already do counts like me and Run Twitter Delete on your Twitter. Oh,

Kirsty Webeck  14:01  
I haven't I absolutely need to. Now that I've admitted that I haven't on this podcast, like I definitely have a busy night ahead. Scrubbing and cry.

Dan Ilic  14:14  
You know when Facebook says Do you remember this memory and so often will come up now I'm like, I don't remember saying that at all. Yeah, I don't necessarily think about that about sandpaper.

Sam Petersen  14:24  
You said some horrific.

Kirsty Webeck  14:26  
Most of them were true.

Dan Ilic  14:31  
Most of us here, big Twitter heads. I don't know if you caught the vibe on Twitter on Tuesday when the Solicitor General was about to release their report about the Scott monastery that Scott was monitoring. Scott Morrison ministry stuffed and did you did you see? The blue drips like baying for blood? And then the legal drips are like hey, just relax. It was I actually I actually caught a promo from Channel Nine for it.

Unknown Speaker  14:58  
But most anticipated There's a document drop in Australia political history. Actually it's more like a PDF from the most senior more official in the land. I'm actually more of a public servant who knows a lot about the law Solicitor General will release the Morison ministry manifesto. It's actually analysis as Scott Morrison broken the law. Not really has he ruined democracy as we know it. It's certainly unconventional Catster juicy gossip midday on Tuesday, she posted a top 10 the Solicitor General's Morrison ministry manifestor analysis could check a strap threat maybe but ticket will buy you a whole seat but you'll only need the

Dan Ilic  15:49  
Well that sounds very unsafe I recommend against it. Very good. All right. This week's third day the billionaire versus the blog Lachlan Murdoch is suing crikey for defamation. This is just exactly the kind of behavior you'd expect from a dog Kim came from Frankie covered the January 6 insurrection on Capitol Hill in DC he'd alluded not my name mind you that the Murdoch family might have something to do with allegedly claiming they have some undue influence on certain section of the conservative media. And then Murdoch you know, sent crikey, some legal letters, crikey, then publish them and put out an ad in the New York Times saying that, hey, come and get us You dog. Lachlan Murdoch seen the opportunity to shut down a subscription news website? That wasn't his own set? All right, I will. So now where does this leave? Crikey, surely everyone that was already going to subscribe to them has subscribed, and they've got enough money. Well, they're gonna burn a bunch of money to kind of fight Lachlan Murdoch, Sam Peterson you run a subscription media business. Do you have any tips for cracking?

Sam Petersen  16:53  
Absolutely. Always take on the Murdoch. idea. I take them on a monthly I love I like to say bad word about the Murdochs I think they're wonderful. I think we can all agree with that. I would never say anything bad about them. They could

Dan Ilic  17:06  
they could potentially invest in podcasting.

Kirsty Webeck  17:11  
And what about those salacious rumors that you were spreading about Lachlan before we started

Sam Petersen  17:15  
recording? Allegedly. I know that you've recorded them on your phone you're always recording, always recording. But it is i i find it so sad that they've taken on crikey because a lot of other publications at the time in America were publicizing a lot of things as well. And it was just crikey that they took on for defamation because it's different in Australia with defamation law. So they're taking on crack. And I think it's so sad for independent journalists who are trying a subscription based site because you know, podcasts obviously, for me, they make a lot of money. Absolutely wrong.

Kirsty Webeck  17:48  
That's why That's why I keep blackmailing.

Sam Petersen  17:52  
But it is it is so sad with subscription services, because you're obviously not making a lot of money out of it. And they're going after kind of a small fish that they could go after so many other people, but they're for some reason going after the most Ozzie subscription service ever. Crikey.

Dan Ilic  18:06  
Yeah. And I mean, I would love to be sued and then have to declare bankruptcy because it's just so much pressure to keep continuing

Sam Petersen  18:14  
to get that content out.

Dan Ilic  18:17  
So Daniel, is actually going to instigate a motion for a judicial inquiry for greater media diversity and make media organizations responsible for the truth and material that they purvey including penalties to match. This is the next movement in this whole campaign. And this scares me all of a sudden having to justify everything in this podcast. Yeah, but it's truthiness. Oh my god I'm

Sam Petersen  18:38  
Richard you'll find just say a legend heaps I'll do anything about content is I'm so happy that Kirsty actually records everything but it is it is so sad though that you have to be so careful now about about everything I mean, you know it's not it's not political correctness gone evidence. It's that awful thing of just going are like friends of mine who are comedians that worry about things that said three years ago or something or you know everything there is this fear now I think with everybody posting things, making sure it's right and there is a bit of like that could be a really good thing with a lot of outlets like when Daily Mail and stuff, but there is I think there has to be accountability but going after crikey.com Seems like a bit of a stretch.

Dan Ilic  19:20  
Yeah, you have to prove that he was defined by crikey well you gotta prove that crikey had any influence

Kirsty Webeck  19:28  
Yeah, I love that that you have to be able to prove that it's everywhere except for the intent Western Australia now isn't it that they changed the rules so that you've got to be able to prove that yeah gonna damage your reputation trophy

Alice Tovey  19:39  
ante and is that why they can do such funny headlines

Kirsty Webeck  19:43  
and be the kinds of people that will be suing over this stuff like have little to no reputation? For first prove that you had any kind

Dan Ilic  19:55  
by quite frankly, for me as a bit of a small fry person I would love for someone To define me because it seems to be always easy because you can easily cushy if you define me we'll go halves in a settlement. You give me a million dollars I'll give you 500,000

Sam Petersen  20:14  
I'm represented by twitter.com. Dan she's got 305 pulled up all this old stuff.

Kirsty Webeck  20:27  
I'm making it up. I don't care. I'm ruthless.

Dan Ilic  20:31  
In a second, we're gonna be talking with Ben pinnings. But before we do that, we're going to play hang on a sec. Hang on a sec, is where I play something on the internet. That's real. And you chime in and say Hang on a second. I'll stop the tape. This week. Take on a sec is a real promotional video from Russia. AKA the country Russia. They put it out through the Russian Embassy in Spain on their Twitter trying to convince people to move to Russia. Right this is hang on a sec. I'll play it tell me when you want to chime in to say Hang on a second I stopped

Unknown Speaker  21:01  
this is Russia delicious squizzy viewed

Kirsty Webeck  21:15  
i Okay. Yeah. Firstly, that was a Yeah, it's a major Yep. A major yuck but I was actually

Dan Ilic  21:23  
something orange and gelatinous on top of what could be maybe a stack of pancakes

Kirsty Webeck  21:30  
Mnemic whatever it is, it's not working at its best but it was more the next slide that I was going for beautiful women

Unknown Speaker  21:37  
beautiful women Yeah,

Kirsty Webeck  21:39  
look I'm I am an expert on beautiful women actually. And as far as I'm concerned, they are two small children

Alice Tovey  21:50  
there is a Britney Spears lyric I'm not a girl not yet a woman no those are definitely not women. Young girls the only

Kirsty Webeck  21:57  
girls yeah very young

Dan Ilic  21:58  
it's not it's not quite right maybe you know let's not forget English is their second language.

Sam Petersen  22:05  
Even for like any advertisements, like even when they're doing like an Australian advertisement in Australia, they have to go through so many processes and it's it's a train minute or something Queensland gets upset they have to go on to kind of have trains the Deaf just use very young girls that are not and not gone back and change

Kirsty Webeck  22:21  
what Dan saying about like English being a second language like a draw card of you moving to a country because it's got beautiful young girls. Yeah, well, I can see now children are lovely. Yeah, it's still not a draw card. Even if it's an English thing it's like but what I'm not moving there because there's two sisters frolicking and

Unknown Speaker  22:41  
women cheap gas

Dan Ilic  22:49  
this price the prices were having gas I'm like maybe maybe I could spend maybe I could spend non festival season in Russia.

Sam Petersen  22:57  
It just looks like a lot of stock footage. It just looks like they've gone through like Shutterstock and it just found heaps of footage all at once. Nothing looks like it's been shot for this ad.

Alex Dyson  23:06  
Yeah, I mean admittedly I've never been to Russia No, I can't actually this could be this could be faked that's

Alice Tovey  23:12  
actually julong sold I'll move to history

Kirsty Webeck  23:23  
What's the thing we have to keep when we want to stop oh gosh I go fish oh okay well now that I've interrupted the rich history creating summers we

Dan Ilic  23:39  
Yeah, this is gonna be in the history books. Part of it guys jump up. Be a part of the good

Unknown Speaker  23:48  
world famous literature unique architecture. fertile soil

Sam Petersen  23:54  
emphasize stop hang on a sec stop that's actually my drag name I haven't decided

Unknown Speaker  24:08  
TriCity and water Hang

Alice Tovey  24:09  
on. The bathtubs a bit of a stretch it's going a bit hotel and then kind of into horror movie with the ballet feet and the next shot and very

Sam Petersen  24:17  
milky in the bar here. That will be Goldberg

Kirsty Webeck  24:22  
that's a missed opportunity to say it's cheap milk as well. Even milk

Dan Ilic  24:26  
there's a reason why this water is cheap. It's not processed right out of it.

Sam Petersen  24:31  
And also cheap electricity which is

Alice Tovey  24:33  
just got canned. I've also never seen a more beautiful board woman in my goodness.

Dan Ilic  24:39  
That was realistic. She'd be having an iPad

Unknown Speaker  24:44  
belay cheap taxi and delivery drug dish traditional values. Christianity,

Sam Petersen  24:54  
hang on a sec not not a huge draw. To get you to a country

Kirsty Webeck  25:00  
I'm for the cheap guests stay for the Christianity

Dan Ilic  25:03  
All right I think the next one could be great for Canadians

Unknown Speaker  25:08  
no canceled culture this is your chance

Sam Petersen  25:14  
a lot canceled culture I think a lot of good

Kirsty Webeck  25:19  
Russia can't say anything anymore because if you're already canceled

Sam Petersen  25:28  
not gonna deal right?

Kirsty Webeck  25:29  
They're impervious to

Unknown Speaker  25:33  
vodka economy that can withstand 1000s of sanctions

Kirsty Webeck  25:42  
but he's so funny that's the funny thing

Sam Petersen  25:48  
it does sound like a joke

Dan Ilic  25:51  
but a whole world thanks just feel like this would be the perfect home for Scott Morrison. This is perfect for Australia.

Sam Petersen  26:02  
Get it up here. No straighteners trying to give up what am I talking about? Bloody hell what is that are you in the know the way the buddy campaign like that had such like iconic moments were on a beach and even though it's a very old ad now it was just so iconic the way they did it and the tagline and everything I love that that was the love that's gonna be my ringtone

Unknown Speaker  26:35  
economy that can withstand

Dan Ilic  26:39  
what I love about that is

Kirsty Webeck  26:44  
like such an emphasis there like you have no idea how many sanctions just keep coming.

Sam Petersen  26:51  
Sorry, buddy. No cancel Kochi,

Unknown Speaker  26:53  
calm canceling. Winter is coming.

Alice Tovey  26:58  
I know that the Song of Ice and Fire or whatever the case is a little bit too far. Yeah, it's

Sam Petersen  27:04  
very creepy motion. Yeah. The end.

Dan Ilic  27:09  
I mean, typically winter does come every year. So you know, maybe it's the season. And I found that

Kirsty Webeck  27:16  
I could up the ante by saying the nuclear winter is coming.

Dan Ilic  27:24  
we interview guest has been accused by one of the world's biggest coal companies of trespass intimidation inducing company insiders to breach contracts by leaking sensitive information and irrational fear. were accusing him of being a badass, please welcome to the podcast Ben pinnings. Now been for over a year, you've been fighting this case with a Danny, for people who don't know, can you give us that as a quick summary of your story?

Unknown Speaker  27:50  
Yeah, well, I was one of the more prominent people in the stopping Arnie movement. And a couple of years ago, yeah, they decided to try and Sue myself. They, yes, believe I cost them 600 million. They're suing me for 17 million. They followed my wife and kids around, they applied to the court to raid our house. They've done all the dirty tricks in the book. And two years later, it's still going.

Dan Ilic  28:13  
It's so extreme. You've been you've been fighting this for two years. How has it taken? How has it taken a toll on your own health?

Unknown Speaker  28:21  
Should? Yeah, it's been. It's one of those things you don't want to say it's had too much toll on my health and my family, because you don't want to scare other people off, you know, being ratbags. But yeah, it's an unusual case. You know, there's been nothing like this in Australia for 2030 years, you know, in the ICT, it's illegal, but all the other states in Australia, it's legal to have this sort of court case. You know, lots of parts of the US and Europe, you're not allowed to do these sort of court cases, but it's legal and Queensland are down. You're going for it and they're going hard. And I'm I'm copping it Wow.

Dan Ilic  28:54  
Danny said that they you know, you cause them $600 million worth of damage. First of all, well done. Well done. That's allegedly, allegedly. Okay. That's a word we've said a lot. Tonight. Yeah. Everything. How was how was your court case proceeding and like when you know, how can folks help?

Unknown Speaker  29:14  
Well, yeah, it's gone two years, you know, I've raised or the community has been great, like people, you know, know what to do when a billionaire bully. This dude's the fourth richest person in the world, like is worth 150 billion. It's just ridiculous. And he's going after me to make me bankrupt and, you know, get my family home, etc. But there has been, you know, 910 1000 people have donated so far, about half a million bucks. But in the legal world, half million bucks is nothing. Yeah, Dan, you've obviously spent millions as well. So unfortunately, yes, I'm going to have to raise half a million bucks again, which I'm going to be launching pretty soon asking, you know, community members to put in which they have so people hate bullies. And unfortunately on the end copping it but there's been Many, many, many, many, many 1000s of Australians involved and stop at any moment. And of course, we've had an impact and being quite successful. And the Adani coal mine, which was going to be massive is now you know, small and all the other mines that were proposed for the Galilee basin are very unlikely to get up. So it's been a very successful movement. But obviously they want to make me pay and they don't like me and don't like me for good reason. But people should be able to be peaceful protesters and you know, play up and campaign for our health and well being and then have kids.

Dan Ilic  30:32  
Yeah, no, absolutely not even peaceful protesters fucking cause some trouble,

Sam Petersen  30:36  
Billboard billable one

Dan Ilic  30:40  
been what is the benefit of them wait and spending all this time and money? So I don't use it? Is it just to deter others from doing the same?

Unknown Speaker  30:47  
Yeah, it's it's hard to know. But yeah, we believe it's the tactic. So yeah, there's galley blockade, which I was known as a leader of and other organizations have been, you know, focusing on the banks and the contractors and the insurance companies and the engineering firms and really trying to convince them not to get in bed with a really, you know, dodgy company like Adani. Adani says we've been very successful, but they're blaming me individually for it. Like I'm one of many 1000s, even though I was one of the leaders there, they've picked someone to make an example of and that's me, and they haven't done it half assed and is a really big case, lots of money, you know, lawyers at 10 paces, it's, you know, I've got five lawyers, and that's nothing they've got tensile is, you know, lawyers, that costs a lot of money. But it has to it's, you know, there's precedent involved as well, like these sort of cases are called slap suits, which is strategic litigation against public participation. And yeah, what they want to do is scare other people. So it's really important that the case is one and precedent isn't set. But you know, the whole legal system like I got to be careful what I say I'm not allowed to inverted commas disrespect the court. But I don't believe these cases still exist. They're an affront to democracy, but they do exist. It doesn't happen very often. So it's very important. We went up not just for me and my family, but for the political freedom of all Australians, I suppose.

Dan Ilic  32:14  
Ben, have you thought about trying to, you know, use a bit of canceled culture on Gautam Adani, you'd gone through his old tweets seen a picture of your dad's party or something.

Unknown Speaker  32:25  
I will sit here and bite my tongue, because I'm in the middle of a court case with regards to what as you can imagine, when someone fucks over your family, it's very easy to get little revenge fantasies in your head. I won't specify those. But it's, you know, it sucks. This guy has just recently overtaken Bill Gates to be the fourth person, richest person in the world like having $150 billion. And, you know, saying what he's doing to provide for poor Indians, that is appalling. And it makes me sick, what he can get away with. It makes me sick, what multi billionaires can do, but Australia does have more political freedoms than many other places in the world. You know, if I was in India, God knows what would have happened to me, given the current close relationship between Gautam Adani and the Prime Minister Modi there. So, yeah, it's important that we do stand up and play up and do the best we can to resist, you know, why don't in my view, or climate crimes,

Dan Ilic  33:21  
what is the particular peculiarity of the Queensland court system that allows them to do this?

Unknown Speaker  33:27  
Well, it's everywhere in Australia apart from the AC t. So the AC T has a more progressive government with the labor and greens there. So these types of suits aren't legal there, but every other state, they are, like the last big one was in the 90s, against Bob Brown and some of his mates with the pulp mill there. And the good news about that is that case took six years, and ultimately, the timber company lost and they went bankrupt. So that's not going to happen with Danny but it could be two more years that I'm in the Supreme Court. So I'm in the Supreme Court in the next few days. And yeah, it's half a day in court fighting over what in my head as a civilian is ridiculous stuff. But ultimately, it's important because it affects other people over time. And you know, we do want to protect the freedom of people to get engaged in politics more than just voting going out there and civil disobedience has been so important for so long and a lot of our rights have come because of that and we need to protect it

Dan Ilic  34:26  
Yeah, well Ben, good luck How can folks help you out?

Unknown Speaker  34:30  
Well look out on Facebook Twitter and all the other places in the next few days you'll see a hashtag dad Versa Danny on the dead so he's a suburban dad in Brisbane have cut the kids and a cut the step kids in a small business and, you know, a mortgage and all that sort of stuff. And, and ultimately, it's really important because I'm just an average person, in many ways, and it doesn't just affect me like it's, you know, what it's affected with regards to my wife who's never been, you know, pretty much to approach stayin alive. It's not her thing. This is messing her life around. It's messing my kids lives around by but, you know, kids who have been paranoid that they're followed by investigators because they were followed by investigators. It's pretty sad disgusting stuff. That's that's happened. And it's not good that my family has copped it. It's not good that I've copped it. And yeah, it's important that we fight. So you will see some prominent Australians taking photos of themselves with a hashtag and all that sort of stuff. Pretty much share it around donate if you can. It's going to be in the media. You just look up or down in court case and you'll find my aging mug and

Dan Ilic  35:41  
well then I'll definitely tweet a picture. But we're going to change the hashtag it's going to be DadBod Versa Donnie.

Unknown Speaker  35:48  
Well, yeah, so I'm trying to go to the gym to minimize that one. But it seems like the yes gravity in the sands of time like beat the gym for some reason.

Dan Ilic  35:57  
I will make sure we put all the information in the show notes. Well, that is it for rational fi big thank you to Alice tovi Kirsty Weaver, just Sam Peterson and Ben, thank you so much. Let's get to the plugs. Our Sweetwater plug,

Alice Tovey  36:08  
hey, so I'm going to be in Launceston in a few weeks doing a few shows or otherwise just go to Alice toby.com and see what I'm doing and film filling out yes, I've just made

Sam Petersen  36:18  
for some great things about it. Oh,

Alice Tovey  36:21  
you're so sweet. I'm Yes, I have a film out called hands. So look at festival programs that'll be coming out eventually.

Dan Ilic  36:27  
Yeah, so I

Sam Petersen  36:29  
have a podcast every week called Confessions of the idiots. It's very fun podcast and I've got a live show happening on the seventh of October in Melbourne with Australia today on Missy Higgins Jess Perkins and of course Dave Lawson will be there my pretty much another co host will be there as well and maybe Sophie to hit you know and the Oliver Clark will be there as well. The two golden tonsils of Australia yours Peter Hitchens episodes Yeah. Sorry. It's such a beautiful person I suppose in the world. So yeah, conditions of the idiots on everything. Because your way back.

Kirsty Webeck  37:00  
I'm all over the interwebs I'm under my name. Curtsy way back on all social media platforms could really use a boost on tick tock.

Sam Petersen  37:10  
To go, Oh, you did a great sort of Zagami what else?

Kirsty Webeck  37:13  
Did it do go on podcast. A week ago, that was very, very funny. And also, I'm working on a new show for a national tour next year. So Kirsty wibit.com is my website and you can sign up to my mailing list there to find out where I'm gonna be and how funny I'll be.

Dan Ilic  37:29  
And Ben, where can people find you?

Unknown Speaker  37:30  
Find me on Ben pennings.com or just search for Danny court case and you'll be able to see all sorts of media things and yep, help out as you can.

Dan Ilic  37:38  
Alright, chip in. Big thanks to everyone for joining the show tonight. Don't forget we've got our Fody show on the 17th of September at Carriageworks. Huge show. Big thank you to Jacob round, who did the incredible sketch production tonight. Rode mics our Patreon supporters and we're we're recording today stupid old studios big thank you to them. Thank you guys. All right. Until next time, there's always something to be scared of.

A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear

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🎟️ SEE OUR NEXT LIVE SHOW AT THE FESTIVAL OF DANGEROUS IDEAS: https://festivalofdangerousideas.com/program/secretive-australia/

In the space of 72 hours we saw the birth, the brightly burning and death of the Scott Morrison Many Ministry Meme. 

We have a new podcast from A Rational Fear featuring the A Rational Fear twitter key holder, Killian David, and one of the few conservative voices in Australian comedy that’s not Rowan Dean — James McCann from the James Donald Forbes McCann Catamaran Plan Podcast.

🎟️ SEE OUR NEXT LIVE SHOW AT THE FESTIVAL OF DANGEROUS IDEAS:

https://festivalofdangerousideas.com/program/secretive-australia/

Dan Ilic  0:00  
Hello, irrational fear. It's good to be back. We are kind of easing our way back into weekly shows for the rest of 2022. Thing is, it's just been so exhausting. We've had the election, I've had to go on holidays, I then went on another holiday and you know, I might even go on another holiday. And you know what that means? It's just it's difficult to do a regular podcast. But good news is we're doing live shows we've got a big live show coming up for the Festival of Dangerous Ideas. September 17, at Carriageworks is all about Australia and how Australia is the most secretive, liberal democracy in the world. It's great. We've got a great lineup, Kate McClymont, from the Sydney Morning Herald Damian case for the New York Times Amber Schultz, who of course has done this show a few times before she's from crikey, Lewis Harbor, who you know, he's, he's the boomer that's on Triple J. Daniel, which that's me and David McBride, who is a whistleblower lawyer who was the guy who basically told the press about our war crimes in Afghanistan, he's gonna be doing the show as well. It's going to be an incredibly funny and strange live show all about secrecy. Who knows we all may go to jail, but you know, that's that's for the good of everybody listening. I'm recording my end of irrational fear on Gadigal land in the Euro nation, sovereignty was never ceded. We need a treaty. Let's start tonight's show.

Simon Chilvers  1:18  
A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, Canberra, fed gum, and section 40 of a rational view recommended listening by immature audience.

Dan Ilic  1:31  
Tonight Scott Morrison reveals he was also secretly sworn in as Prime Minister of Australia, and the Labour Party has achieved what many people thought was impossible. They passed a bill that nearly does something effective on climate change, and unemployment hits a new low of 3.4% with the creation of 20,200 new jobs last quarter that Scott Morrison had to give up after the election. It's the 19th of August and with more jobs for the boys, the New South Wales nationals. This is irrational fear.

James Donald McCann  1:58  
I can't hear anything, I'm sorry.

Dan Ilic  2:14  
Welcome to rational fear. I'm your host, former Royal National Park Daniel edge, and this is the podcast that takes the news and gives it a nice warm blanket and a cup of tea. Let's meet our fear mongers for tonight. He's a comedy writer, improviser and as the key to the irrational fear Twitter account. It's Killian, David. Hello.

Killian David  2:29  
Thanks for having me.

Dan Ilic  2:30  
What have you tweeted lately, that's going to put us in jail,

Killian David  2:33  
something about Scott Morrison as some of the hype

Dan Ilic  2:38  
around it. And he's gonna buy a podcast with his Patreon money. It's the host of the James Donald falls McCann catamaran plan, James McCann,

James Donald McCann  2:47  
it's so nice to be here until I make a technical error and disappear once again. You would think two years of pandemic two years of pandemic I'd get it right

Alex Dyson  2:56  
you know, and you know, for people who are new to James we can James McCann has this podcast called The James Donald forms McCann catamaran plan, and he's been begging people to book him on their podcast to get rich for his podcast, because he considers himself to be a good talent of which he is.

James Donald McCann  3:13  
I tell you, Dan to smash into hurdle number one, so swiftly as promptly, right? There's no hubris about me being on mumbling with the 19th ranked comedy podcasts in Australia. I'm humbled. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so sorry for my burden that I bring to the show.

Dan Ilic  3:30  
Yes. And for people who are listening on the podcast, I'm sure the bit where you logged on and couldn't hear anything has been cut out. So that's what we're referring to. For people listening to

James Donald McCann  3:39  
it was the five minutes of racial slurs that

Unknown Speaker  3:44  
as well, we can't do that. Thanks

Killian David  3:46  
to the Patreon and your your crew.

Alex Dyson  3:49  
James, where are you at with your catamaran plan, how's how's the fundraising going for your catamaran you started the podcast in order to get it insanely popular. So you could buy a catamaran, we're at

James Donald McCann  4:00  
work? That's a great question. And you're not, we're the listeners growing the monetization hard, very difficult. So we had, we had about $3,000. And then I don't know if you're aware, but the cost of milk has exploded. Once I get my tax return back, I hope to get it back up to $3,000. Discreetly, maybe I shouldn't say that publicly, you know, I'm sure it'll be fine. And so make sure you can extort from yourself. So I'll pay myself back and then we have only what 490 $700,000 To go oh, this

Dan Ilic  4:33  
is exciting. Coming up later, we're going to be talking with Scott Morrison who's going to be taking over as host of this show. But first here's a message from this week's sponsor, a human washed up former leader of a minor political party and want a new job but you're worried that a life in Parliament has left you with no discernible skills or friends and simply log on to jobs for the boys.co.ck at jobs for the boys dot COC you'll find a list of well paid board placements in fossil fuels and defense as well as detailed instructions on how to start off farm in regional Tasmania and never be heard from again to make a profile simply upload your contact book to the platform and jobs for the boys will reach out to you for a quiet word in a noisy place in the middle of the day somewhere around Monica. And if you're a woman try our sister site. It hasn't been invented yet jobs for the boys dot COC is a sponsor of irrational fear. All right, this week's first fear Scott Morrison's many ministries Now we all know the story. He's a man of many ministries. During his time in Parliament, Scott secretly swore himself into two extra ministries at the height of the pandemic. So that pretty much telling anyone, and then as things got better, he was like, Hey, I like having these extra ministries. I'm gonna, I'm gonna sign myself into three more. He signed himself into resources, Home Affairs, possibly the most powerful of all the ministries and Treasury as well. He's doing well, you know, might as well be the man and be the money man, too. So what's going on here? Like? Should we be upset that Scott Morrison has gone ahead and secretly sworn himself into so many ministries? Kellyanne, let's start with you.

Killian David  6:01  
I think we should give him a bit of a break. I mean, he was sorry, Ben

Dan Ilic  6:05  
Ford, and we'll start with you.

Killian David  6:06  
Let's I mean, as he said, like he he was steering the ship in The Tempest. Yeah. You know, and we were all on the show. We were I mean, instead of walk in his shoes, as he said, in the, in his freezer, I mean, all this talk about being on the shore and walking his shoes that made me think that perhaps he was the next thing was going to say it was how he was walking on the sand. And there's only one step sort of footprints and, and then it turns out that Jesus was carrying him.

Dan Ilic  6:39  
Yeah. For a long time, I was followed by two sets of footprints, and all of a sudden, there was no footprint footprints. What happened there I swore myself in as Jesus. And then I carried myself. Yeah, I

Killian David  6:52  
like the way that he was talking about, you know, like, you know, how was it for me, you know, to be in my shoes. I'm sure that his empathy coach was on the sidelines going,

Dan Ilic  6:59  
Yeah, that's it. You guys don't know what it's like to be Prime Minister. It's hard out there. It's hard. The prime minister, not many people get to be Prime Minister. It's difficult. It's very hard. James. Look, you would you count yourself as a Scott Morrison fan. Oh, look,

James Donald McCann  7:14  
he's a loser. He failed to deliver that election. And that's a problem. From an ironic point of view, I'm strapped up all my, you know, good lefty, inner city mates. You jumping up and down, like they can't believe he's done it. This is like the proof that he was always an evil man. I'm trying to figure out a way to care about what he's done. I really like I bet I place up you can I'm allow information, humble, suburban father of two, he took on extra jobs at a difficult time. He doesn't seem to have abused that power at all. And it's so within the confines of what you're allowed to do as prime minister, he if he had done that, without the consent of the Governor General. I'm one of these absolute monarchy people I should say, as well. So all the stuff that we should sack the Governor General, this is insane. He's the Prime Minister. He's the first servant, and he decided to serve in an extended capacity. You know, there's a formality of cabinet consultation early on.

Killian David  8:13  
Yeah.

Alex Dyson  8:14  
Do you think the secrecy stuff is weird? Don't you think the whole thing about no either? Yes, I find it weird, like hiding, hiding the fact that you have undercut your ministers by also becoming an executor of those ministries as well. Totally undercutting the ministry in particular, when it comes to the coalition, right. Like to have resources Minister Kate Spade, who is a national being charged of, of such a strong ministry, which is part of the national agreement, they all about power sharing. And then to come through and go, you know, that nationals guy, I don't really trust him.

James Donald McCann  8:46  
But I don't believe that the grips on Twitter, who are going ham are doing so because they so respect the National Party, and the role that they should have in the coalition. And this is the problem with Scott Morrison times. It's like something weird that our loser would do. Like he didn't even do if he'd done it right now. But it's like pulling your pants all the way down to the ground to take a piece at the urinal. He it doesn't appear to have been for any other reason than he thought it was appropriate at the time

Dan Ilic  9:13  
health and finance, housing finance, I totally understand, right, that was at the peak of the pandemic, but resources Home Affairs Treasury like those three like resources that's got nothing to do with the pandemic. Like we could

James Donald McCann  9:25  
have had a war with China at any point. And then we're gonna need to get that out.

Dan Ilic  9:28  
Yeah. Well, the one thing he did jibes as as as resources minister was canceled fossil fuel projects, which I'm very, I'm very much in favor of, I think that's fantastic.

James Donald McCann  9:37  
Go ahead. Judas. And so the Liberal Party should be furious.

Dan Ilic  9:42  
Yeah, we should we should be celebrating him for that. We should we should build a plaque for Scott Morrison because

Killian David  9:49  
I don't understand inadvertently.

Dan Ilic  9:51  
It's really quite offensive to all those other ministers who are on his team, who had no idea that he was also the CO executor of those ministries please another point of view,

James Donald McCann  10:01  
but they sack them like this. This is the third. This was the third batch. Abbott came in with some hot talent on that front bench. They all fucking went abroad where was hockey Where's Bishop second ministry Turnbull the moderates get to go there narrow fuckin gone where we're dealing with yourself. Yeah, I mean he

Unknown Speaker  10:25  
was Greg Clark was there James Greg Hunt was on the front bench. He was the

James Donald McCann  10:28  
Birmingham Whoopty doo. I mean, these people are not talent. This is

Killian David  10:33  
he was keeping Marcin was keeping these ministers at a distance not telling them because he needed to make room for the Holy Spirit

Dan Ilic  10:44  
the biggest stuff up with the with the pandemic was, was not replying to those emails from Pfizer, which, which was really quite a major fuckup Greg hands team totally is totally in the tank for but at the time, Scott Morrison was also health minister like he would have gotten those emails to Surely you know, like,

James Donald McCann  11:07  
yeah, I don't know that he's a big emails guy right

Dan Ilic  11:10  
here. Yeah, he's a Facebook guy that the CEO of the CEO of Pfizer should have put it on Facebook.

James Donald McCann  11:17  
If he'd reached out on LinkedIn, Scotty would have been there. Have you seen Comos LinkedIn

Dan Ilic  11:20  
is it isn't popping off?

James Donald McCann  11:23  
Well, I think elbow didn't even have a LinkedIn, which is why he didn't kill it with the, you know, like $150,000 a year. Equity bros. Yeah. Like the AFR, I think had an article about like, How could anyone run for high office without LinkedIn? Like, what fucking world are these people live in

Dan Ilic  11:42  
Scott Morrison and LinkedIn, the reason why he loves LinkedIn so much is really the platform for the unemployed. Because anytime you ever use LinkedIn, it's when you're unemployed.

James Donald McCann  11:49  
I've ever it's about making connections with people. I think he could do the religious. I mean, really, that's what he loves. Right? Is that the pinto hand in the air stuff. And he's clearly good at like, whenever there's a clip of him doing one of the pinto things. He's great. Like he is a much less guarded, when he's saying things like that. Trust that government. I've met these people, that's a better use of his faculties and what he believes all he can do is be a communicator, and you would never let him near a company again, but if all it is is like, who wants to show up in a room and listen to Scott Morrison, some people some not me, some people would want to do that. You could be a mega church leader

Dan Ilic  12:26  
saying like this. Yeah, the Scott Morrison mega church isn't is in the works like merchandise, self help, books, music. I mean, you can play the ukulele. This is great.

James Donald McCann  12:37  
He likes to sing. And he's these these hand people. He's got the hand of the so I'm like,

Killian David  12:42  
you can he can make his own crucifixions because he can chop down trees? No, no.

James Donald McCann  12:48  
They don't do that.

Dan Ilic  12:50  
James, can you give me just one good reason why this is a storm in a teacup why we should turn it out, turn our eyes away from this crazy secrecy.

James Donald McCann  13:01  
I would honestly say that I think of all the horrible abuses of power that were perpetrated, and lack of oversight that were done during the COVID pandemic. This is the one about which like, literally, nobody noticed. Like not only not only was it it wasn't just secret. And like it was deemed such as not a threat to our democracy, that people who knew about it, and were writing the book about him didn't blow a whistle. They're like, Ah, well, right after the election, we'll have a booker offer. Yeah, I mean, this is he's not even he's not even resigning. He went in. I thought he was going to when he gave that speech, right? The text message has been coming out and people are going Scott, he's gone. It's gone. It's gone. He came and he was like, oh, I want to I want to resign from the sea and the shock. He's not get up this year in the fall. It's like, he's sticking around. He's got his money. He's got his pension

Killian David  13:52  
around. We should all be ashamed of ourselves as well. Yeah. Even daring to insinuate that he was doing anything wrong.

Dan Ilic  13:58  
For my scenes. I did watch that entire press conference. It was an hour and six minutes, I think. And it was like reliving the hits. You know, it was just like,

James Donald McCann  14:08  
he's back baby. It's like

Alex Dyson  14:10  
this. Everything I did was totally fine. I know. I was never wrong. I apologize if you were offended. And

Scott Morrison  14:21  
that's a matter for the Queensland Government. I mean, that's a matter for the premier. That's a matter that I'll raise with other premiers and chief ministers. That's really a question to the brilliant. That's a matter of I'm happy to take up with the other premiers and chief ministers a rational

Dan Ilic  14:33  
fear this way. Second fear the climate bill, climate change bill passed a couple of weeks ago. What this means is 43% Cut blow to 2005 levels to reach net zero by 2050. And the climate change authority is back with teeth. It's there to advise on the target, which is exciting. Another thing that the bill in Thurs is that there's going to be an annual State of the Climate from the climate change minister. They're gonna do that every year. I don't know if that's enough. But yes, we're here at the Climate Change Minister once a year. Once a year, we're gonna hear from the cloud, how hot it's getting. That's exciting. And then a whole bunch of agencies are going to encourage everyone to be good boys and girls, and that is generally the gist of the climate change bill. There's also this thing called the safeguard mechanism that's been in place for some time. It was a little policy that James's friend Tony Abbott brought it into 2016. It had kind of it kind of had, like a punitive measures against business who didn't meet their emissions target

James Donald McCann  15:27  
was just admitted. It's a great it's a great measure and Tony Abbott's a great man. It's been long enough,

Dan Ilic  15:34  
Tony Abbott is a great man. Better than Scott Morrison, I would say he's better than Scott. Finally, who are these people, Tony Abbott, bringing in the safeguard mechanism, Scott Morrison canceling the pay pay. Fossil fuel projects,

Killian David  15:51  
brace the bloody hippies,

Dan Ilic  15:53  
I've had I've had these liberal Prime Ministers are wrong. These are climate heroes. These are people doing their best in a system. It's pretty kind of like a bit of a weak climate bill. But I still think it's going to be pretty good in terms of moving forward

Killian David  16:09  
with teeth is like, yeah, teeth that can be pulled out, one by one.

Dan Ilic  16:15  
And then in America, the inflation Reduction Act came in last week as well. So that was a $370 billion act with only $60 billion inside that 370 billion to do with climate action. The bill also includes a bunch of provisions, that essentially means the federal government has to allow auctions of oil and gas on federal land. So that was the big concession to fossil fuels. How do you feel about climate change? James, I don't, I don't really know your position.

James Donald McCann  16:41  
I mean, I'm broadly against you know, I like I like nature. I look up, my religion does not permit contraception. So my children keep coming. And I'm poor. So if I, if I say, can, I mean, like, if this was it, I would be lying. If I said this was a top 10. For me, it's like who's going to help me find a house that stops my children getting tuberculosis is where I'm at, I'm really at hand to mouth, I can't express to you how much of me having a technical issue at the start of this podcast, was due to like, very, very poor in an efficient technology on mine. If there's one thing that this sort of Bill can change, though, which I would like to appeal to my patriotism. This is not quite to do with climate change. But it is disgusting that all we do as a country is the shit out of the ground. Like that is what annoys me is that as a Australian, and I love my country, this bait, it's basically all we seem capable of doing. There's no like, proper Australia, there's no car industry, there's no fashion industry, we've got these big cities, I can't think of a good app that's come out of this country. I can't think of one app.

Dan Ilic  17:48  
I just don't think I just delete one this week, I just deleted the COVID Safe app, that was a good app that came out.

James Donald McCann  17:53  
Thank you. Thank you, Scotty, you know, Minister for digital innovation, too, while you're at it. So if we can, like I actually don't mind as clamping down on these industries, if only because I find them to be extremely boring, like beyond whatever negative impact that I'm sure they are having on the environment. They just sack like they don't help anyone.

Alex Dyson  18:15  
Except for the shareholders and for the owners themselves. Yeah.

James Donald McCann  18:19  
Yeah. Who ever then use that money to do what buy another investment property? Yeah. And like, it's just holes and houses is that really all we're gonna do as a nation,

Dan Ilic  18:27  
I've got a sketch coming out next week. And it's all about gas and the gas prices. And some of the insane things the gas companies have done over the last 30 years is, is it's totally counterintuitive to helping out anything, helping out this whole situation with Australia and our gas supply. So 80% of the gas that we make goes basically overseas, and the largest user of that gas is the gas companies themselves. It takes about 8% of the gas to actually put it on a boat and ship it overseas. So that's, that's wasted gas. The gas prices are locked at 2002 prices from when John Howard was in power, he did this deal with the gas gas companies that they could they could sell at 2002 prices internationally for 30 years so that that deal is still going and so it's not in the it's not in the gas company's interest at all to sell to Australia at a cheaper rate. Because when because they need to sell overseas at this 2002 rate. Because the property

James Donald McCann  19:25  
stones know it takes a men with guns, match them into the office and get something done. That was the most exciting Whitlam thing with you know, is that we were going to we were going to nationalize industry. We were going to build pump pipelines. And I'm sure the progressive leftist today wouldn't be opposed to this because it would be very carbon problematic, but it's like so much money that we haven't touched because what we're afraid of the CIA killing us if we stop exporting that money and giving it to big companies like I think that's the reason we haven't nationalized gas right now.

Dan Ilic  19:57  
The reason why well the reason why the reason why we We don't have Gough Whitlam anymore or people like him is because the CIA got rid of him because they he wanted to get rid of Pine Gap. That was a military thing.

James Donald McCann  20:08  
I reckon. I reckon it's both. I reckon I was gonna he was doing a lot of stuff, and he was going to use that money to this is a different conversation. I don't want it. But it's like to be an independent power. We've got to get a nuclear bomb. I've said the only thing people remember from me saying this is I'm trying to buy a catamaran Jameson, of course became catamaran plan number two, can we get a nuclear weapon please, if necessary?

Dan Ilic  20:35  
Yes, fuck the subs, let's get a catamaran for jibes? Do you think this do you think Australia needs a catamaran plan, James?

James Donald McCann  20:43  
Well, look, I mean, that's one industry that I'm trying to put forward that we could do as a country. That's a little more exciting than just digging stuff out of the ground. Could we have you know, an expert? Can we have an ABC series that people want to watch? That's not miss Fisher's murder mystery? Or did you hear that podcast a friend? Kelly's getting tongue ballads? Oh, geek. What's going on with that? Yeah.

Dan Ilic  21:05  
Did you listen to the drop with as men for key? Did Oh, Kelly.

James Donald McCann  21:09  
God bless her. She's 105 years old. I don't know if people know that.

Dan Ilic  21:14  
Yeah, I mean, she's a great broadcaster. I think you know, people who watch the ABC love her. And I think that makes sense. Yeah, ABC perspective.

Unknown Speaker  21:20  
Let's find but you know,

Dan Ilic  21:22  
the average age of the ABC viewer is like 70. Like, it's not it's not young people. When I say young people were in our 40s and sci fi five.

James Donald McCann  21:32  
But even within the paradigm, even if you're just going to narrow well, right, we're going to have over 50s ABC presenters and we're going to use we're going to friend Kelly is not the one who you listen to and go. That's our that's Australia's David Letterman right there. Lee sales is out of a job. What do we do and she's sparkling She's witty, she's good on that podcast. Where's Lee, you

Dan Ilic  21:52  
should have the have you been having conversations with any musical theater people folks on this podcast? Because they are livid that AFL player has gotten a starring role in Joseph and Technicolor Dreamcoat

James Donald McCann  22:02  
offensive hiring of Shane crew are that's jazz hands up. Yeah,

Dan Ilic  22:07  
James, you've got this great podcast. It's one of my favorite podcasts. I listened to it. Whenever it comes in, I listened to it. It is a very vulnerable podcast, you share a lot of yourself in it. And you have hilarious production in it. The way you use music and repetition, and your post production makes me laugh, like a little boy, is very, very funny. And the whole premise of you going out there with a podcast to try and raise enough money to buy a catamaran is so stupid as someone who's had a podcast going for 10 years and hasn't made too much money from this podcast.

James Donald McCann  22:48  
I don't know how to I Yeah, monetizing. It does seem to be hard. Everybody does have a party. But that's so nice. That's really nice for you to say, I love doing it. I mean, look, I think it's the best podcasts that I'm currently making of all of them. And it is nice to just have a but again, I think I think I'm mentally ill. I don't want to get into the vulnerability, but it's just it's nice to have like one overarching thing of like, all right, it's all for the boat. When I'm doing a book of poems at the moment that I wrote of last fortnight we had an ad auction. I'm like, I'm selling mugs to people. But it's like at what point do you go I you know, you look back at yourself and you take stock and you go oh my perhaps I'm not well, you know, how long can we pepper over this with a boat ambition? Yeah.

Dan Ilic  23:30  
So you're doing all these things. You know, you're doing the the art auction, the poem book, which is 911 and Marlon Brando.

James Donald McCann  23:40  
Yeah, Marlon Brando. 911, beautiful poems that everybody will love. Here's the thing about the poetry, I don't understand why people go, Oh, you can't make money selling poetry, you should be able to make the most money out of poetry, because it's very few pages. And it's not doesn't take very long to write because I've only got a couple of words on each page. So really, you should be able to churn them out and you charge the same amount of money. That's the crazy thing. The profit margin on a book of poems is through the roof. It's just that people hate poems.

Dan Ilic  24:04  
That's about it for a rational fear this week. Big thank you to our guests, James McCann. Thank you, James.

James Donald McCann  24:11  
Dan, a pleasure. I'm sorry if I just shared it. That's okay.

Dan Ilic  24:14  
I think we're having a very robust, it's good to have a robust discussion. James. I'm

Unknown Speaker  24:18  
glad we're having this rope and I say anything. cancelable No,

Dan Ilic  24:21  
no, you didn't say anything canceled. I think we might lose some Patreon supporters, but hopefully they go to your podcast. Julian, very nice to have you on we'll have you on properly another time. Lovely. Yes. It's great to be on. Thank you. Do you guys have anything to plug killing? Do you have anything plugged? I'd like to

James Donald McCann  24:37  
plug James's podcast. I want to take this opportunity to plug this podcast irrational fear. I want to say when I was I did your podcast long before I have my own podcast and you were at the cabaret festival. And you were kind enough to have me on. And Daniel, your work ethic is singular. In this business. I don't know anyone who has your work ethic or Your understanding of the industry to make it work. It's it's kept.

Dan Ilic  25:04  
I haven't. I will talk about it.

James Donald McCann  25:09  
I don't think we're ruthless ambition for power cancers and mental illness is sort of strength. I hope Fran Kelly gets on the phone to you and gets you in charge of that show. Dan. I think you're the only man with the experience running a show of that kind in Australia. pram. Kelly, pick up the blower Get this man working again.

Dan Ilic  25:27  
That's very kind I don't I don't do producing anymore. I just I'm just telling James. I'm just telling you these days. I've drawn a line. I'm like, I'm not I'm not I'm not on the tools anymore. Okay. Well, Fran

James Donald McCann  25:36  
Kelly do the right thing. Resign and allow the ABC to hire Dan for your job. There we go.

Dan Ilic  25:42  
Exactly. Or give it give it to a young person kombucha young Daniel Young. Used to be it used to be we all used to be ABC standards. I was really I was really hoping to get that TV show when I was a young person. Now I'm an old person. That ship has sailed give the show to a 40 year old white man demand a demand it's not very fashionable anymore Is it? Please if you are in Sydney on in September come to rational fear at the festival Dangerous Ideas September 17. Came a climate Damien cave The New York Times. Amber shields from crikey Louis harbor myself, David McBride is also going to be there. Deelen Bay is going to be DJing it's going to be great for some dangerous ideas. September's emptied big thank you to rode mics, also to our Patreon supporters for sticking around hanging hanging around still paying the Patreon even though he didn't give a show last week last month. I've been busy. I've been busy trying to try to feed feed my family. And also big thanks to Jacob brown and a big thank you to James and Killian as well for joining us tonight.

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G'day Fearmongers —

After looking at all the data it was discovered that most of you don't listen all the way through the podcast, so that means most of you have never heard Lewis Hobba go on a deranged un-hinged rant about some minutiae.

So — here in this episode of A Rational Fear, we've pulled together the best bits of Lewis in about a 50min episode.

If you manage to listen all the way through 

https://www.instagram.com/lewishobba/

https://twitter.com/LewisHobba

Enjoy.

Dan

Lewis Hobba  0:00  
Hello, hello. Hello Daniel, I

Dan Ilic  0:01  
discovered something. When I looked at the podcast analytics. Oh, yeah. What's that? That 1000s of people listen to us, hey, it wasn't discovered they tend to turn off about halfway through the podcast. All right. And what does that make you think? I think? Well, I here's what I think. I think they get they're missing out. They're missing out on a crucial component of the show, Louis?

Lewis Hobba  0:24  
Yeah. Because I'll tell you what it makes me think. I always close the show. Every live show, I slave away, sometimes for up to an hour, working on a funny little series of jokes. And I put them right at the end of the show. And it's a barnstorming performance. People always say you got to stick around to the end. Louis homeboyz closes the show. He's very funny Crusher, they call me a crushes comedy. And so these table you're telling me that the 1000 people who listen to the podcast, they don't even know what I do there. They don't know why I'm there. Everyone doesn't even know what you're doing on the weekly shows. Who's this guy that's on the weekly shows. I know we listen to the live show. He just he just hangs out there writing on Dan's coattails. I mean, people have said that to me before and we'll say it to me again. But right now I'm period. Well, here's what I've done. I've put together a special of all of your bits back to back so people can enjoy you 100% of the time on this episode of rational fear. That's interesting, because I wonder how it'll be like, I do think a little bit of Louis five minutes each episode is probably good. I wonder if you put all of it back to back if it'll just sound like the unhinged ravings of a lunatic? Yeah, of

Dan Ilic  1:31  
course it will. Because you are renowned for being an unhinged raving lunatic on irrational fear. Well, the good news is they can turn off any time, which turns out to be about halfway through,

Lewis Hobba  1:38  
oh, my God. So the back half of this, we'll have to put the podcast out again. And then maybe finally, you'll actually listen to me.

Dan Ilic  1:50  
If you want to hear more of loose, please sign up to our Patreon.

Lewis Hobba  1:53  
And if you want to hear less, sign up to the Patreon and leave a little note saying less, Louis, please, and I'll just quit. I'll quit. I'll do it.

Dan Ilic  2:02  
And if you are on Patreon, you are getting this first you're getting this special episode a week before everybody else. So there are there are benefits of being on the Patreon though. That's they're very scant.

Lewis Hobba  2:12  
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we we have so little to offer. But we are very, very grateful. So thank you. And thank you for listening to so much me yelling so much me yelling before people head into this 50 minute episode. Do you minutes.

Unknown Speaker  2:28  
Are you insane? Well, it's your fluids. You've done so

Dan Ilic  2:31  
many great bits, so we needed to put them all together. That's fucking insane. Well, you fucking destroy the show. Like you're really good. Like in the live setting. It's just that no one has heard

Lewis Hobba  2:41  
God believe I've been doing this podcast for 10 years and no one's heard me.

Dan Ilic  2:46  
outright. Should instead of closing the show.

Unknown Speaker  2:50  
On open the show and leave

Lewis Hobba  2:53  
the disrespect. So what are you gonna? What

Dan Ilic  2:55  
are you gonna tell? What are you gonna tell?

Lewis Hobba  2:56  
I honestly, I don't even know. From all the episodes. Yeah, yeah, there's probably some great gear there from 2013. You can cancel it. Great. Yeah, if you can take out. You can't see blackface on a podcast. Thank god. Okay, good. As long as you can't see that. We should be all sweet. I don't know what's in here. But I've been angry about so much, so much over the years. And I hope you enjoy it. And please, I love you remember that at the end? You'll see me at the back. It's a joke. I'm very tall. It's a it's a good visual gag. But the podcast was actually going to be a lot of those. So if you're listening at home, I'm sorry. I'm not the biggest event on the planet is happening right now. The World Cup of football around half the world's population will watch it but our Socceroos had been knocked out. And thank God because now we can fully focus on the other global event happening this weekend. The TV week Logie awards. Yes, good. Whoa. on other continents young boys and girls will huddle around TVs to watch Messi. Ronaldo, Iniesta and dream that they one day to may hold the golden cup aloft. And here in Australia, kids will huddle around the 79 inch flat screen and say

Unknown Speaker  4:19  
mama, papa, when I grow up, can I be on the project?

Lewis Hobba  4:27  
Can I sit next to Steve Price my mom ever so racist Shaw, it's easy to make fun of the logos, and that's why I'm gonna do it. Yes, I'm a hack who grabs that low hanging fruit. The height makes it easy. And then I hold it in front of grant tenure and I make him jump for it. Jump for it grant It used to be that the low yeas were vapid, they would glorify dumb and vacuous television and never acknowledge anything cool. But that's all changed now, because no one watches TV so you can safely say that every show nominated for a low GI is a cult favorite. One guy nominated for the gold low GI this year is on a show called love it all listed. The most recent episode of that show had 46,000 viewers. 46,000 Viewers, that's the ratings of my mom's Instagram Stories.

Unknown Speaker  5:39  
Check her out your mom's really hot.

Lewis Hobba  5:41  
I mean, the thirst traps are weird, but her unboxing videos are good. Personally, I actually think it's good to say the luggage is getting behind a little guy. And I don't just mean granted Yeah. I mean, the underground battlers with no viewers like A Current Affair. I mean, they've been talking about that list for so long, they should just do an episode on themselves. The World Cup might be big, but in Australia, no one could even see it for the first week. At least viewers know they will definitely be able to watch the logos they won't but they could if they want it. But then eventually after Optus shat the bed and finally let SPS screen the games. People got angry that the hosts from SBS was pronouncing foreign His names correctly. Lucy's Elitch host of the world game and the only person in the country able to cope with Craig Foster was he's hot but he's Shut up Craig. Lucy's elige was dragged for being multilingual by Internet commenters who are barely single lingual. I mean, it's If Lucy zellige Lola hosted the logos she would have given the gold logo to cast a fan of it. Which is a bit real for my friend Dan Ilic. When I met him he was still pretending to be white.

Dan Ilic  7:17  
I decolonize

Lewis Hobba  7:19  
but the log is have had a huge shakeout this year for the first time ever. Televisions night of nights will be held in Australia's shithole of shitholes the Gold Coast the gold The World Cup is being held in Russia, where the government kills people. The luggages will be held in the Gold Coast where Dreamworld kills people two years too soon, we can cut it. Of course it always used to be in Melbourne where it wasn't a very cool back alley, and there were plenty of milk crates for grant Daniel to stand on so he could look normal size people in the eye. But now it'll be in the Gold Coast wherever and I'll be so busy is vey over vomiting from the passion pop. It will actually still be back down to Greg Daniels level. Which is nice. I think. Ben Danya has big dick energy that is actually a good call. I mean, he's had enough ice he can go all night.

Sami Shah  8:29  
Allegedly pursues

Unknown Speaker  8:31  
rational fear.

Lewis Hobba  8:33  
Now as a Victorian he lives in Sydney always kind of felt like Switzerland in the Sydney Melbourne debate. I think they're both great. You know, Melbourne has the food and the footy. Sydney has the beaches and the beauty but it was always one trump card that Melbourne had to play when it came to its victory over Sydney hidden in a little laneway was a secret spot called crown Casino.

Now as long as Sydney didn't have a crown casino it would always be Melvin's poor cousin. Everyone knew it. It's all anyone talked about up here. When will we get a crown? Where can I go if I want to gamble and eat at restaurants that already exists pretty close by? Well, you could go to star casino I'd say the star they'd say that a crown the city can never be king

and then, like a white knight riding in on his glimmering super yacht kames James Packer he built a new crown right here. It would herald a new dawn of subtle sophistication. Right here in the Emerald City. I'm talking a hidden tucked away 22 hectares of land and almost impossible to spot 75 For casino and all owned and run by a family business. The Packers for a moment, Sydney was the happiest place on earth. Then before I even got a chance to take my call Melbourne friends to Barangaroo for a hit night of gambling. I find out the crown can open in Sydney. Apparently some intern who calls himself a former Supreme Court justice suddenly decided after an 18 month investigation, the crown is unsuitable to run a casino because crown casino in Melbourne has a long history of money laundering. Melbourne isn't that keen typical? Not only does it have the better restaurants, it's better at money laundering. If I have to if I want to money launder I have to drive 10 hours down the tube to turn my drug money into chips. It's outrageous. You don't ban someone for money laundering. Remember last year when Westpac accidentally forgot to mention 19 point 5 million transactions of money laundering that gave them a little fine. No one went to prison. It was an accident. It was 19 point 5 million accidents. We crown only made one mistake one little money laundering mistake hoops punster mother has known once organized a junket for a triad gang to dumb profits of crime for over a decade.

Unknown Speaker  11:34  
Look me in the eye and tell me you haven't done it.

Lewis Hobba  11:38  
Honestly, telling crown they can't operate money laundering casinos. It's like telling Asha Gunzburg you can't host TV. It's what they were born to do. Without crown jobs will be lost. Can you imagine the layoffs in the triad gangs? I don't want to be the guy at Centrelink who has to tell a hitman he can't apply for job keeper. Not only will people not be able to launder money, help people gamble. Are you telling me people can just gamble on their phones?

Unknown Speaker  12:12  
At any time on literally anything.

Lewis Hobba  12:16  
I'm old fashioned. I book my holidays that a travel agent. I bind my horn at a sex shop. And I like to gamble in a giant penis shaped building. I don't want to gamble on a machine that fits in my pocket. I want to gamble in a big machine filled with coins like a robot leprechaun I'm worried about what will happen to the beautiful Barangaroo if crown can open its casino usually when you're not allowed in a Sydney building. It's for a normal reason like it has cracks and it's about to fall down. But right now in Sydney there is a 75 storey money laundering cop just sitting there on the harbor disord I mean, what are we gonna do with an empty building with a fucking crowd on top of it? It limits the options are you gonna rent it to crown laga it'd be as a bigger crime than money laundering. What are we going to do literally rent it out to like a royal family. The closest Australia has to a royal family is the Hemsworth there Byron house is nicer than Barangaroo. If this nanny state won't let James Packer open his money loaning factory, I do actually have a few ideas of what we could do with the empty space. Now your average Twitter teardrop will tell you that it should be used for public housing or COVID quarantine hotels. How about this? It's got a lot of CCTV cameras. Big Brother house if you think crown's reputation is too bad for a TV network to film Big Brother. Keep in mind they used to film in a dream world

just saying the standards low. Okay, it's not right. The Big Brother, I hear your groans maybe another show Ninja Warrior right across the casino floor. The first person to jump over the Jewel of the Nile swing around a roulette wheel roll Snake Eyes crack open the vault and swim through a billion dollars of laundered money wins $50,000 The rest of the money goes to crown. I don't like that idea. I got more. We all know that James Packer and Mariah Carey are well and truly over. Maybe it's not too late to rewrite the divorce. So Mariah gets Barangaroo imagine Mariah Carey living alone in a giant tower for the next 30 years while the giant facade slowly decays one day and intrepid explorer wandering through the heat wasteland that was once Sydney machetes through the IV branches that have overtaken crowns revolving doors to find Moriah in rags sauntering the empty halls singing All I Want For Christmas Is You while she mimes eating a sumptuous feast off the empty plates in a deserted Nobu. You Yes, it is an excellent idea.

Unknown Speaker  15:23  
But it's not as good as money laundering.

Lewis Hobba  15:27  
Just like the crown should be allowed to launder money just like they do in Melbourne. I'm sick of Sydney being number two. Do you know that New South Wales isn't even the state with the most amount of poker machines in the world? Guess what number we are? Number two. You know number one is Nevada. First, the store wins the rugby league and now this crown casino simply must be allowed to operate in Sydney. I mean, they even let Western Australia have a crown casino that's a state where you hit a jackpot anytime you dig a hole. Sydney doesn't pick up its game soon. Soon. We'll have nothing I mean, we'll have one casino but what are we Hobart

Unknown Speaker  16:11  
we've already lost the cruise ship business. Don't take away our culture.

Lewis Hobba  16:18  
We need a friendly place with a carpet that reminds you of a funky fruit funeral parlor with lighting that says What time is it? Who cares? And a car bag full of family wagons with the windows down just enough for the kids to breed?

I hope personally I don't see the day when there's a real estate agent out the front of Barangaroo auctioning it off and if I do 2.2 billion is actually not a bad price for an apartment Sydney so I might invest. Thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker  16:53  
Fear is irrational.

Lewis Hobba  16:56  
Over the years governments in this country have declared war on many things. There was Howard's war on terror. There was Abbott's war on red tape. It was Gilbert's war on misogyny. And I sometimes like to guess who we'd be at war with if Mark Latham had won an election, maybe the moon and as wild as that would have been, it would still be less insane than the New South Wales war on music festivals. Yes, the Berejiklian blitzkrieg on fun rages ever on a Fed fast that never ends. If you notice this story, a bunch of music festivals in New South Wales have been forced to cancel because of new regulations. The government can now tell a festival how many police they're required to have, which they then need to hire off the government. In one case the festival cancelled and it was told one week out that it would have to hire an extra $200,000 worth of cops. And if you're thinking that telling people how much of a thing they are required by law to buy off you sounds like a good business model. You're right it is it is getting the tick of approval from Shark Tank. If you or I did it, it would be called racketeering, the most jaunty of crimes. It feels really strange to live in a place where it is a vote winner to attack festivals, festivals. In any other country. The word itself invokes a sense of community and fun and to wage a war against music. If you're writing an 80s film or rock opera, and you need a villain to do something, cartoonishly evil

Unknown Speaker  18:48  
they were in fun life.

Lewis Hobba  18:55  
If Gladys Berejiklian gets reelected on an anti music platform, then she might have noticed through a victory speech and a coke made of 101 Dalmatians. No one here cares. Not you then the trash out there. You guys are beautiful. And if you're listening at home, also beautiful. So apart from the festivals that have already been cancelled, like mountain sounds, and sci fi Arey a bunch of other festivals like laneway have announced they might have to cancel next year's festival because of these new regulatory regulations. Now in 15 years of doing laneway in Sydney, two people have had to go to hospital in 15 years. That's less people dying than a Sydney Theatre Company Matt Matt the hearts just give out when they say he got a wavy,

Unknown Speaker  19:51  
he's very good. He's electric.

Lewis Hobba  19:57  
And if you're a Gen X or Boomer thinking that the last The festival like sci fi carry doesn't really affect you. I would like to remind you of this famous poll. First, they came for sci fi. But I didn't speak out because they didn't like hardstyle trance. And then they came for laneway. And I didn't speak out because they didn't like fun in tight places. But then they came for Byron Bay blues and Roots Festival.

Unknown Speaker  20:29  
And it was too late because I didn't say anything. And now how I say vicar and lendable

Lewis Hobba  20:40  
that's right even blues fest the one you people love has announced it might leave New South Wales. That's gonna decimate the slide guitar industry.

And I don't expect music festivals to be everyone's number one voting issue. But New South Wales let a government tell them when they could and could not buy alcohol. It goes against everything I know about this country. At this point, the only thing I can think of that would get Sydneysiders actually angry is a war against F 45.

Unknown Speaker  21:22  
I don't know what to do.

Lewis Hobba  21:25  
What can I do? Can I repeat music festivals in a way that boomers might understand? We know boomers think drugs are bad. I mean, they did it in the 60s Obviously. But now it's us, not them so it's bad. They know that we know that boomers think young people never talk to each other because we're always on our phones. Well music festivals solve all these problems. The receptions always really shit or the 4g is jammed with people using Instagram. We can't use our phones and after a few cats, we love to talk to each other

Unknown Speaker  22:00  
Oh people the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

Lewis Hobba  22:06  
In New South Wales is right maybe we should just cancel thumb. Let's just stay in every weekend and once a year we'll spend all our savings to go to the domain to see whatever's left of Fleetwood Mac

break the child wants Sydney is completely given up we can segregate the entire population of Australian cities by age bracket at 20 years old, you'll be forced to move to Melbourne where you'll actually be allowed to have a good time at 30 You'll move to Brisbane to settle down get married, get sad, get divorced. You'll spend your 40s in Adelaide drinking wine and getting into cycling. And 50s The Gold Coast's for tanning and tax breaks. And then finally you'll turn 60 and you'll be ready for Sydney retirement village with no young people and no music, just cops in Messina.

Italy, Florida, humid and full of people you wish would die but won't. And when all was said to you that set it and centenarians buck, I knew I shouldn't have written that word down. It's hard to say with no teeth you'll get there eventually. And when all was said to generis commemorate the day they won the fun war, they won't have a minute silence. They'll have a lifetime of it. A rational view the UK is now being run run by Boris Johnson. The human personification of the word whoopsie. The whole world is going to hell in a handbasket. But I reckon if you asked anyone over 50 how they were feeling this week, they'd say they felt better than they felt in years, kind of like how they felt when they bought their third investment property. And that because in all this madness, there's been one little beacon of Boomer light, a warm safety blanket to wrap yourselves in one you TOPIK island in a fraud ocean of troubles. The return of CJ Yes, it isn't just Victoria that's legalized assisted dying now. Now the entire country can lay back and slowly watched the life drain from our eyes. As the biggest ABC drama of the late 90s has been directly in our homes like wistful memories, Xanax for all Are Australians the return of sea change is like getting back your franking credits you didn't need it a bit it's nice I should say quickly for anyone here under 30 see change was Round the Twist for adults I never saw sea change myself. But I got the gist from hearing my parents talk about it. It's about a high flying lawyer who leaves the sea to move to the coast and apparently diver Dan quite the dish. According to my mother, yes, Sigrid Thornton and the gang from pill they are back on your TV. It's a great day for the generation who still say channel two here's a man in the third row

Unknown Speaker  25:47  
who gave you the finger little finger

Dan Ilic  25:51  
if you went to his Facebook page he's probably friends with the APC thank you

Lewis Hobba  25:55  
it's the ABC his family and that's it doesn't know how to use Facebook.

Unknown Speaker  26:00  
He doesn't do Facebook

Lewis Hobba  26:02  
sometimes stereotypes exist for a reason the ABC is doing its absolute best to give the boomers what they want on a they brought back countdown for New Year's Eve you love that. Did you count down? They keep bringing back Sphinx and specs because you think Adam Hills is nice. But they were gateway drugs. Nothing tickles and old man's wall not wallet like the ageless visa is your secret Thornton. And here's the kicker the aunties most valuable asset after Barry Cassidy's frown lines isn't even on the ABC anymore. While the AFP were writing us for the Afghan files channel line was rummaging around and stealing seachange it's one of the only shows that Australian TV with no known sexual predators I mean, thank God we let channel seven take doctor blake mysteries

Unknown Speaker  27:04  
good luck to them.

Lewis Hobba  27:06  
But St. James selling out that hurts. There's nothing worse than seeing something leave the integrity of the ABC to chase meaningless cash

isn't that right Ray Martin? Don't worry Ray, four corners really went downhill after you left.

Unknown Speaker  27:36  
irrational fears.

Lewis Hobba  27:40  
The reason I think just to wrap it all up, that satirists and look I'd say satirist, and comedians, and I'm referring to us, and you might be like, I don't even think of myself as the senators. I mostly ask people where they've been stuck on radio, you know, out there doing the good stuff. I'm not, I'm not John Oliver, I'm an idiot. So just accept that I'm going to use that term broadly. And let's roll let's move past it so we can all pay. But the reason I think that satirists are the new journalists is simple. We can't exist without journalists, like 100% of jokes written by political comedians get written because they read a story in the news and the news is written by journalists, like we're lazy. We're too lazy to do it. And to show how lazy we are. For the next little while. I'm just going to make the same point over and over again, using slightly different metaphors. satirise aren't disrupting journalism were leeching off it were a pilot fish attached to a shark, where the cackling hyenas picking it the bones of politicians left behind by lions, if journalists are a majestic giraffe, using its height to scan for danger way or a silly bird that lands are forced to look wherever the giraffe

is bull. Canadians are the last person in the human centipede. Just taking the research already digested and shut out by reporters and editors eating it up and then shooting it out again in a slightly different way. It's still shit. But our shit was shot by a human centipede. And that's gonna get clicks.

Unknown Speaker  29:36  
Like journalists have

Lewis Hobba  29:37  
to do a lot of stuff that is important and boring. Comedians want to do stuff that is frivolous and exciting. Like Can anyone here be bothered learning what an interest rate is? Like that? No, there's no such thing as a financial comedian. It would be cruel to teach us about money, only for us to learn. We'll never get it. I like the grunt work of political journalism is getting things on the record like that's, that's the grunt stuff. That's the important stuff, like going to boring press conferences, making boring calls, getting people to say stuff. Like in 2008, when a journalist got Scott Morrison on the record saying that he was in favor of a government supporting people buying houses with a housing equity scheme, that was boring in 2008. And in 2017, when he said it again, and that he still supported the idea. It was boring then. But in 2022, when he attacks labor for the exact same idea, it's suddenly become something, write something that gets the mounds of the little human centipede very excited. But good things take time, even hypocrisy, and time is something that journalists can afford to have. And look, I am not deifying journalists. They're normal people. And in fact, they're worse than normal people. Because their job is to be annoying, ideally, to people in power that comedians or people pleasers. Applauses are nourishment. Like it's the base of our food pyramid. And so I don't think comedians are incapable of doing the work of journalists. But we're not financially motivated to piss people off like, we get paid by the ticket. So I think journalists have an employer and an employer who pays them more, the better they are at annoying people. It's the opposite of what comedians do. Like I would say the ABC has at times paid comedians to be annoying, and not in the way they pay me to be annoying, which is just by accident. But it's more of a sort of deliberate choice to pay comedians to be annoying on shows like Chase or to nightly which you talked about already. Very few people in comedy choose to make audiences happy by annoying powerful people on a freelance basis. It's just not a smart move. And so my point is really, that you you can't have political satire without journalists, but you can very easily have journalism, without satirists, because we're not going to do the research. And you know what? Sometimes you just need someone to look down the barrel of a camera and say Princess Diana is dead

and you need to notify that out with damn lady died

that's some topical stuff.

Talk orders is run by comedians, it would be the Comedy Central Roast. If 60 minutes was one run by comedians in it go for 50 minutes and we charge for the fallout. If current affair was run by comedians, it'd be a bit better. Like comedians aren't useless. I mean, we're not as bad as opinion writers.

But mostly we're just putting a shiny new package on an existing product and selling it is something new, and that is why we often end up selling it for free.

Unknown Speaker  33:08  
Emotional fear, okay, Louis, as an anemic ABC employee. What's your take on this?

Lewis Hobba  33:17  
My take is the one that keeps me employed Tony so that I can afford to feed my feeble family all the soy lattes their weak bones need what's that? What are your Peter Dutton is very handsome. Manly, yet has soft and kind eyes that make you melt when you catch their gaze. His hair is thick, like a young Ray Martins. He is benevolent yet firm like a hammer, a hammer for justice and fairness. He is building a safer, cleaner, brighter Australia and Australia that makes you go wow, Australia is so safe and clean and bright. Loving Peter Dutton is like an Australian journalist interviewing Steve Bannon. You know it's wrong, but you just can't help yourself. irrational fear. I want to talk not about the climate but about the vaccines and other upbeat topic who's All right, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  34:23  
one more applause

Lewis Hobba  34:28  
All right. All right. I don't know if you've heard but the COVID vaccine rollout is going very badly. Right now Scott Morrison couldn't organize a syringe on the set of Trainspotting. By the end of March, he planned to have 4 million people vaccinated and they just missed that target by 3.4 million. This week, the government revealed it hadn't vaccinated aged care workers and and they didn't even know how many aged care residents had started getting shots. Has anyone had been vaccinated? All right, just by asking that question, I know more than the government about the COVID vaccine rollout. But in times of crisis, I think it's very important to take the government's lead, and instead of looking at what we can do start looking at who we can blame. Let's start with the labor leaders. We all know Dan Andrews is crawling out of his hospital bed at night, throwing away his fake back brace and creeping out to sprinkled COVID under the beds of Melbourne's children. The media are obviously also to blame. Health Minister Greg Hunt got very angry at the media for saying that older people who were nervous about getting the AstraZeneca vaccine could wait until the Pfizer arrived. He said the media were promoting vaccine hesitancy the media were directly quoting Greg Hunt. And that really pissed off Greg Hunt, who is a Greg Hunt

The government is also very angry at boomers who have developed this vaccine hesitancy for those following at home. Yes, this is the same vaccine hesitancy the government refused to stop Craig Kelly doing for Craig Kelly fans,

Unknown Speaker  36:31  
what the fuck? Weird salience

Dan Ilic  36:36  
B Q and on Viber.

Lewis Hobba  36:39  
Oh, interesting. Okay, let's explore that as we go on. Wow, fuck, I didn't say I've never met somebody like Craig Kelly. It's so crazy. But actually, I think that the vaccine hesitancy problem is actually quite easy to fix because boomers stopped trusting vaccines because they believe anything they read on Facebook. So what I have done is I've prepared some Boomer friendly messaging that you can write on your own Facebook wall at any time to make boomers get their second job quicker than their second home. Yeah, that's right. I know what you own. What else are you gonna take away from me? Come on. All right, here we go. Here's some things you can write on your Facebook wall, to get Boomers to take the vaccine. Tell them the vaccine doesn't insert a microchip. It inserts an audio book about Graham Kennedy written by Peter Fitz Simon. A vaccine is just an extra hot coffee. Tell them it's an iPad. Tell them it's a painting by an indigenous artist. Tell them it's a funny detail. Tell them the vaccine is a mountain by telling them the vaccine is a low res family photo. Tell them it's a podcast with Annabelle crab. Tell them the vaccine would like to hear a story about an old neighbor who recently died. Tell them the vaccine agrees that the two years of high interest rates in the early 90s was the greatest hardship generated ever face. Tell him it's a BBC drama. Tell him it'll make Netflix easy to use.

Unknown Speaker  38:31  
Tell them it's a carport.

Lewis Hobba  38:35  
Tell him it's a second fridge. Tell them it doesn't use American words like diaper and store. It uses Australian words like nappy and shop.

Now, we all know that would 100% get the vaccine rollout back on track. But weirdly, that is not the approach our prime minister has taken. No, you might have heard this news yesterday. He's calling in the army. Yeah, yesterday he announced in one of his trademark announcements that the new head of the National Vaccine task force would be Lieutenant General John Frewin. If caught I don't know who he is either, but he's a Lieutenant General. Head of the army. If calling in the army to fix his problems, sounds extreme. Keep in mind, Scott Morrison loves to play with his army men. When he was the Minister for border protection. He called in the army to stop the boats. Then once the boat once the army had done that, he made himself a little boat shaped trophy, saying I stopped the boats. I don't know if anyone in the army got a trophy. They may have got a small participation boat. Personally May I love the idea of getting the military to run a vaccination campaign. It's intimidating but fun I can never quite get a read on what's going on. Big defense strategy. Craig Kelly not okay with military on the fence boobers you came around Applause We all love. I stick with me, so stick with us. I wasn't begging but thank

Dan Ilic  40:19  
you. Will you be closing with Gosman

Lewis Hobba  40:24  
Bacchus for coming. So all right. Here we go Now stick with me on this army thing okay because I actually think it's a really good idea right? I would love to see people's faces when they look up to see Ben Robert Smith walking through the streets threatening to kick anyone who won't get the vaccine up the US with a prosthetic leg he's carrying for some reason. All right. I knew when I asked you to stick with me that I would be losing you and I don't care. What's up with the Army get the Air Force in bold Odyssey fighter jets dropping syringes into aged care facilities. I want to say retired veterans pull their old rifles out of the closet, toss away their bayonets affixed the FISA, Pfizer and go back on the road.

Unknown Speaker  41:19  
We'll find the anti Vax is on the beaches of Byron Bay. We shall defend our Island whatever the cost may be, and then we'll blame the cost on Kevin Rudd Oh.

Lewis Hobba  41:35  
Look, I get why Scotty calls up defense Anytime he's on the defensive. People trust the army, and they're already on the payroll. But I really think there's another group on the payroll who are being criminally overlooked when it comes to helping the vaccine rollout. These people live in Canberra in a building paid for by taxpayers. They're getting taxpayer funded training every day. I'm talking about the Australian Institute of Sport. Now. The prime minister said that the vaccine rollout wasn't a race Well, right now we have hundreds of perfectly trained athletes for an Olympics, that probably won't happen. So let's put them to work and make it a race. First of all, no one knows more about experimental drug treatments that

Unknown Speaker  42:20  
want to

Lewis Hobba  42:24  
test the vaccines on them. They put things in their bodies that would stop once the teen doctors have a locally produced vaccine that prevents COVID and is also untraceable by the anti doping authority. We store them in the coolroom used to acclimatized our winter Olympians. Then we're on to the AIA s as gold metal standard vaccine logistics work. This is quite a plan. So come on the journey alright. An Australian weightlifter lifts boxes of vaccines off the shelves then carries them to a javelin thrower who hurls individual vaccines across the warehouse. Our four by 100 meter medley relay team will swim vaccines across the state of Tasmania, while the rest will travel in short shorts of marathon runners as they jump off to remote corners of regional Australia. The syringes passed like a relay baton from the marathon runners to the power walkers if they encounter any antivaxxers over high jumper will first be flop over them gracefully. Each regional Victorian center will contain PPE from the fencing team, and one the Greco Roman wrestler. Their job is to pin down vaccine hesitant boomers while our welterweight boxers strap on latex gloves. And instead of giving a left jab to the face, given an Australian or right jab in the using the power of the AISI predicts we can have the nation fully vaccinated by the end of the week. Then all we need is to get Nikki registered to sing a closing ceremony and get all the athletes back to Canberra for an athlete village level fuckathon. If Scott Morrison needs any more convincing, I promise when that's all over, and everyone agrees that athletes have done their job perfectly. He can get it get a little gold medal that says he did it all himself a rational fear. Okay, it's very nice to be here. Thank you so much. 10 years of this podcast, building up to this moment, a huge venue, a beautiful crowd who knows everything we've done. I think we can all agree this is the biggest event in the world this weekend. Thank you so much. I actually looked up what the 10 year anniversary is. its 13th anniversary, Tin. Tin. A good honest metal, but it's not platinum is it? Nah, it's Nope. Platinum Jubilee is it. I spent the last 10 years of this podcast complaining about how old people are ruining everything. And then who comes along to ruin our anniversary?

Unknown Speaker  45:10  
The oldest person in the world?

Unknown Speaker  45:15  
Her Royal Highness the Queen of England. This podcast anniversary would have been the biggest game in town. We would have sold out the concert hall or the SCG. But no, everyone's at home. Watching every minute of the Platinum Jubilee.

Lewis Hobba  45:34  
Did you say she's the queen?

Unknown Speaker  45:38  
Oh, including the queen. We'll get we'll get there. Don't get ahead of me one punch line that was that was all that was it.

Dan Ilic  45:54  
Anyone can start a comedy podcast

Lewis Hobba  45:57  
that's a joke as well.

Unknown Speaker  45:58  
The fuck out. Everyone shut the fuck I

Unknown Speaker  46:07  
only got three jokes and two of them ago is one more fucking thing.

Unknown Speaker  46:14  
I will burn this place to the fucking grid now.

Lewis Hobba  46:19  
I gotta talk about that. Not after the last podcast.

Unknown Speaker  46:23  
I'd say the credit to be riding our parade for we didn't even get a parade

Lewis Hobba  46:33  
the Queen's getting four four parades. She didn't go to the first one. Thanks a lot. The first parade was on Friday. She didn't even go she wasn't feeling up to it. She said. And look, I get it. She's very old. But no one was asking you to do a fucking flip. standing wave. Anyone can do it. Right. Her second event was at the Buckingham Palace. Very nice to her isn't it? She gets a palace what do we get a house? But can I just take a moment to say the staff here? The Sydney Opera House. They're incredible. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, that's true. I'd say hats off to them. But they don't get hats. No Do they know? Hats are only for the queen star. Only the Queen's people get hats. Big hats too. That's as high as the eye can see

Unknown Speaker  47:39  
you've never won

Lewis Hobba  47:42  
a fucking picture of the hat I swear to fucking christ diaper house this fucking clothes

Unknown Speaker  47:50  
Oh my I wore a suit and I know you don't know that's unusual but it is

Dan Ilic  47:55  
Dan when you sack Louis after this Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  48:00  
well you could bucket habit Good luck to you. Complete the bucket Michael

Unknown Speaker  48:03  
go down.

Unknown Speaker  48:04  
They'll count the jokes. Unbelievable up for me thanks a lot. Anyway, we had spit before we got and now my next video about hacks so we gotta get back to

Unknown Speaker  48:24  
Oh my god. Thanks a lot Australian media. Not one article all week about the hats of these good Australian podcasters

Unknown Speaker  48:32  
might put on your hat.

Unknown Speaker  48:35  
Put on your hat Ma. Oh, girl Gray. Thank you. Oh, now everyone guess

Unknown Speaker  48:46  
why do people get so excited when the Queen wears a hat? Do they know she owns a crown? That's the best kind of

Unknown Speaker  48:58  
anytime she wears the regular hat. It should be a huge disappointment. The hat is the understudy of the crown.

Unknown Speaker  49:09  
A queen and a hat

Unknown Speaker  49:15  
it's like Lewis Hamilton driving the formula wanted a Kia Sorento.

Unknown Speaker  49:20  
It's now when I came to say put on the crown your big scrote

Lewis Hobba  49:30  
I'm gonna fix it and then I'm gonna fucking fix you you have a radio show is that right? Just like this constantly. Is very aggressive.

Sami Shah  49:44  
GM to the opera house to drum up Pakistani parents. You're gonna find the comedy really good.

Lewis Hobba  49:52  
Sammy sounds like Tate's also my 10 year celebration come along.

Unknown Speaker  49:58  
This is my moment.

Lewis Hobba  50:08  
Now, some of you might think that the Queen deserves a visit as the biggest celebration than our podcast. You might think she's earned a little Jubilee after 70 years on the throne. Oil, you're wrong. I think we've done a lot more than the Queen, doing a mildly successful podcast for 10 years. On and Off is hard work. Very good one if you heard it. If starting a podcast was easy, everyone would do it.

Unknown Speaker  50:39  
Again. All right from now on. All right, fresh jokes.

Dan Ilic  50:45  
I can't wait for this last joke.

Lewis Hobba  50:49  
The closest thing that Queen gets to doing a podcast is her royal Christmas message. And she does one of those per year. That's 70 episodes over 70 years. I mean, we've done over 100 we're crushing her. The Queen get throw herself a party when she knows what it's like to beg Patreon subscribers for $1 a month. I'll throw her a jubilee myself. If she does a Christmas message brought to you by MailChimp. The royal family hasn't done one true crime podcast and they have done so many true crime. This is true right? 18 months ago Spotify gave Prince Harry and Megan Markel $30 million to make a podcast. Did you know that $30 million to make their new podcast? Do you know how many episodes they've made? This is true in the last 18 months since I got that $30 million. One. One episode of one podcast for $30 million. Louis Yes. So

Sami Shah  51:54  
while you're fact checking so disrupt you. The Queen did 69 messages of Christmas because she missed one year 1969 She missed it because she was sick right

Unknown Speaker  52:15  
now that's fine. That joke wasn't structural integrity, but later that won't ruin a call back in three minutes. Good go. Oh, fuck me. Good guy,

Lewis Hobba  52:37  
you know, for me to make $30 million doing this podcast based on how much money I'm getting paid to diet. I would have to do this podcast for over every week for over 2000 years. That's true. That means I would be doing it from now to the very first Christmas when Jesus was born. But no, no

Unknown Speaker  53:00  
give the fucking quatre parade

Lewis Hobba  53:10  
Am I losing you?

Unknown Speaker  53:12  
I don't fucking close the doors none of you this is gonna be the fucking Nutcracker. No intermission

Unknown Speaker  53:30  
this is gonna be the August performance in Opera

Unknown Speaker  53:32  
House history. Mozart's fifth sixth seventh fucking Louis's first

Lewis Hobba  53:47  
with you and the queen. No, I look. I have some good news. I have some good news. Yes, thank you indeed. If you're sick of being upstaged by the Queen like I am. The good news is she could die any second. That's not the good news. That's not the good news. I promise. She's She might be pointless, but she is a person. I hope she lives a long and happy life surrounded by all her family, even the pedophiles Now, the good news this week is that you might have seen our new government announced that there is a new Assistant Minister for the Republic. Could you say this? This is meant for the Republic? No, I think that's exciting. But I don't want you to think I'm a big Republic guy. Right. In my opinion or monetarists and Republicans? They're all as boring as each other. Right? They're all just big fucking weirdos. Yeah, big Whoo. I don't like a couple of crooked Republicans or monikers let's find out which. Like I imagine all monarchists sit in big brown leather chairs and a router waders, but also I think being a Republican in Australia. It's like demanding everyone get their appendix removed. Like it's a lot of effort to get rid of something that's just sitting They're like, who really cares if it's in or out? And that's me saying that after the last five minutes I don't even fucking care. You know, I don't need Australia to pretty common Republic, I just need attention. That's really what it boils down to. Right? But here's some more good news, right? Here's some more good news. If you promise to come back to our 20 year anniversary, there will be no Jubilee stealing our spotlight that's in 10 years. Do you know why? No ruler has ever made it past the Platinum Jubilee. They literally haven't invented the next Jubilee. It's never been done. That means that the Queen has clocked monarchy. The next celebration that the monarchy has a word for is the centenary and to make that she'd need to live for another 30 odd years. And that seems pretty unlikely. The only person who looks like the queen who might live for 30 more years is Keith Richards. Now I don't want the Queen to die. I don't but I will say this. When we come back to the Sydney Opera House in 2037. To celebrate our 25 year anniversary, they'd better be a fucking parade. And here's to our 10th anniversary. Thank you so much.

Dan Ilic  56:23  
So oh my god, Louis. I mean, how are you feeling after listening to you rant for 50 minutes, I feel calm

Lewis Hobba  56:29  
down. I feel calm. I feel relaxed. It really I really got it out of my system. I think anyone listening to the smooth, calm relaxed sounds of that 50 minutes. Well, it was basically a meditation tape. That was my audition for calm the app.

Dan Ilic  56:46  
Big thank you to our Patreon members and rode mics for the road gear and also take a route with whatever yaki tideline and we'll see you next week. Oh, I've never seen you like this your change man.

Lewis Hobba  56:59  
I love hearing myself

A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear

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Every now and then on the A Rational Fear Podcast feed we have a long-form conversation about climate change with climate leaders from all walks of life.

We call them — The Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation.

On this episode of GMPOOG: Dan Ilic hosts a conversation with journalist Nick Bryant — Media watchers in Australia would certainly know Nick's work from the BBC and of course twitter.  He's often got one of the clearest eyes on Australian and global politics.

Nick is doing a special episode of his podcast, Journo, with journalists who cover climate, so he came on ARF's Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation to chat about it.

You can listen to the Journo Podcast here: 

https://jninstitute.org/education/journo-podcast/

On this episode we talk about News Corp's supposed move to embracing climate change, how Pasifika journalists see themselves, and also great yarns about Greta Thunberg and UN Secretary-General António Guterres.

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Dan Ilic  0:00  
This podcast is supported in part by the birth of foundation. Daniel, it's with you here for another episode of The Greatest more podcasts of our generation on the irrational fear feed. If you haven't heard the gumboots before, it's largely conversations about climate change with Climate Leaders. Good and bad. We'll be back with the regular irrational fears show probably I reckon July maybe August, I'm taking a few weeks off because I am freaking exhausted after the election. I need to recharge. Think about this show. Think about how to make it better for the future. And all that stuff. You have any ideas hit me up on Twitter or email Dan at irrational fear.com We'd love to hear from you. Despite

Robbie McGreggor  0:41  
global warming, or rational fear, he's adding a little more heart here with long form discussions with Climate Leaders. Good.

Unknown Speaker  0:53  
This is called Don't be great. Heat waves and droughts. greatest mass extinction moral when facing a manmade disaster, podcast, climate criminals,

Robbie McGreggor  1:07  
Jenner raishin.

Unknown Speaker  1:09  
All of this with global warming and a lot of it's a hoax

Robbie McGreggor  1:13  
book, right. That's my role podcast about generation.

Unknown Speaker  1:17  
For short,

Dan Ilic  1:18  
many folks who listen to the podcast, you'd be familiar with the works of our next guest, Nick Bryant, BBC senior correspondent to Australia, South Asia, in Washington in New York. One thing you may not know about him is he holds a doctorate in American politics from Oxford. Like Nick has also been seconded by the Judith Nielsen Institute for journalism and ideas to host journalists, a podcast about journalism, those who dabble in it. My first question to Nick is have you ever been on a plane when they call for a doctor? Dr. Nick, Brian.

Nick Bryant  1:46  
I've always yearned for that moment. And to go out the front and to say, you know, what, what do you want to know about American history? But alas,

Dan Ilic  1:54  
let me talk to you about gerrymandering.

Nick Bryant  1:56  
Exactly. I could talk you through the sort of checks and balances of the US Constitution. But I don't think that would particularly help as this guy's of chokey God is, you know, first class mail. No, I haven't done that. But it's very sweetly mentioned the doctor. I mean, I've I've started deploying it for the first time in what 30 years, I've, I've left the BBC now and you've done

Dan Ilic  2:16  
the work. So you know, you've got to use those Doctor titles whenever you can. Like,

Nick Bryant  2:21  
I've hooked up with Sydney University, actually, where that kind of title carers a bit of clout, you know, so I have actually started using it again. But yeah, it still feels very odd when anybody calls me up to Brian, I gotta look around. There must be somebody else.

Dan Ilic  2:36  
Yeah. Well, I do think that American politics is so diseased that they could use your help. Brian,

Nick Bryant  2:42  
that is a great way of putting it. But I think, you know, is beyond the help of a physician at the moment, America, I think it is such a sickly state. Terminal, maybe it's too strong. But yeah, it's certainly got problems. I think it's terminal in terms of United States of America as a cohesive country right now. I think we're talking about to Americans, and, you know, across the board, I think you're going to, you know, the end of Roe versus Wade will mean there's an America where you can legally get an abortion as America where you can't get an abortion, there's going to be an America where you're more prone to get a pandemic, suffer from a pandemic, like COVID, as eras of America, to Americans is going to play out in so many different aspects of American life.

Dan Ilic  3:24  
Yeah. Anyway, let's talk about something that is a little bit more existential for the entire globe. You have been doing some reporting recently on people who have been doing reporting on climate this is, this is great. This is our wheelhouse here at irrational fear, Nick, as you may know, and so tell us, you have a bit of a strange climate journey in your own right. As a journalist, one of

Nick Bryant  3:46  
the things I do now is present a podcast called Gerardo and we look at sort of the biggest news of the day. And one of the things we decided to look at was was climate change.

Dan Ilic  3:54  
Why did you do that? Because the major parties in the last election totally forgot to mention anything about climate so strange that you would do that

Nick Bryant  4:00  
either. That's the reason we did it is to make sure that people remembered Hey, there's a planet under threat here. We need to be talking about this a lot more in the media. And of course, one of the areas. One of the surprising developments since I've come back to Australia is the greening of the of the Murdoch tabloids. So we we talked about a lot of things in this this podcast, and maybe we can talk about, you know, the some of the broader issues later on. But we started with this extraordinary turnaround in the run up to the Glasgow Climate Change Conference cop 26. Just before Christmas, we woke up that day and the Sydney Daily Telegraph, it turned green, talking about breeding cattle for Australia and the possibilities of Australia becoming this sort of renewable powerhouse.

Dan Ilic  4:45  
We had Joe Hildebrand on our podcast when that whole happened. We lost about 20 Patreon subscribers.

Nick Bryant  4:53  
Right What what Joe was part of this wraparound Well, exactly. Joe wrote a wrote a column they had the 16 paid wraparound it wasn't only in Sydney in The Daily Telegraph, it was the Tiser in in Adelaide for Adelaide, South Australia. That's the advertiser down in Adelaide, the Courier Mail, which is in Brisbane, the was it the Herald Sunday in America, Melbourne. I mean, all of the Murdoch tabloid came together. Agreed.

Dan Ilic  5:18  
It was a great six weeks, Nick, it was a great six weeks of climate change journalist.

Nick Bryant  5:23  
Yeah, we were fascinated with how that came about. I mean, you know, these are titles traditionally that that have been associated with climate change skepticism that are really had a go at things like the carbon tax, they've run headlines like the zombie carbon tax, and all this kind of stuff. And we were absolutely fascinated with how that turnaround had happened.

Dan Ilic  5:40  
Let's have a listen of from Ben English, the editor of the Daily Telegraph,

Unknown Speaker  5:44  
the issue of climate change had never been tackled from a disinterested objective, and a straightforward journalistic investigative approach, we felt that a lot of the journalism had actually veered into activism. And there'd been a lack of curiosity about a lot of the data that have been presented, we felt that it had been written from a viewpoint that we will characterize as more elite. And I think that's why we felt that it hadn't really resonated with our readers that it had been from a lofty height and element of guilt and shame around it all. We felt it was an opportunity to actually be right at the heart of the conversation, but do it from a viewpoint of everyday Australians. Now,

Dan Ilic  6:22  
Nick, I'd look at some of those wraparounds at the time, and you know, who was writing some of those articles? Who, Gina Reinhardt? Twiggy Forrest, would you call them lofty and elite, the richest woman in Australia? Would you recall her? Luffy lit. And the other thing about Ben English is quite there's like, never up until September 2021. Has any journalists covered climate change at a disinterested, objective and straightforward manner? Wow, thank God, thank God for being English and The Daily Telegraph to finally come to the party to tell us what was really happening with climate change.

Nick Bryant  6:54  
I look down at that boat leapt out at me as well. But we were just fascinated with how this turnaround came about how they decided they would attend the party

Dan Ilic  7:05  
six six specials in the lead up to COP is not a turn around, though. It's it's like a marketing spin for the 2050 program that Scott Morrison took to the to cop like it's such a weird, such a weird thing to kind of looking back at in retrospect. Now, that happened last year, and we haven't seen anything about climate from The Daily Telegraph since then.

Nick Bryant  7:25  
Well, that's something you need to take up with Ben English. And those are questions. Those are questions that that we put to him. The you know, what I think was interesting about it, talking about the sort of longer term ramifications of it. I mean, some people thought, you know, is this Rupert Murdoch and Lachlan Murdoch telling these guys to do this and telling these these editors to do this, or is this something that is or more organic and bottom up rather than top down? And, you know, very clearly bad English said, you know, wasn't a murder initiative. You know, like, they say, they've got autonomy, they can do what they want. And they decided they were going to do this, like, I saw a lot of money heading into the sort of new energy space. They follow that money that he said, all that kind of thing. And what it didn't do, Dan, as you know, is is bring about a bigger kind of, you know, come to Jesus moment, if that's indeed what it was. And I mean, I know you're skeptical about that. And me too, what it didn't do was signify something broader within the Murdoch Empire, which was this, you know, were we going to see a change in the Wall Street Journal, were we going to see a change of Fox News? Obviously, that just hasn't happened either.

Dan Ilic  8:29  
Do you think this is News Corp trying to keep the coalition in power by making the move on climate in a meaningful way?

Nick Bryant  8:37  
Oh, there's a lot of talk that the politics behind it was to give them cover before Glasgow wasn't there's a

Dan Ilic  8:44  
lot of talk behind it that the six issues of The Daily Telegraph that came out, up until the six weeks of cup.

Nick Bryant  8:51  
Yeah, and the idea of being you know, you make the deal easier between the Nationals when you're trying to get to that emissions target. I think one thing it might have done is help labor neutralize the issue. So much of Labour's political strategy ahead of the federal election was obviously, to neutralize climate changes. And this year, I remember talking to Anthony Albanese this Sunday, maybe it was the week after his. He released his climate change policy. You remember he did it a Friday afternoon a classic sort of bury the news strategy. And that's right. He had a soft launch of his campaign, just two days after that. And I remember talking to his aides just before that launch, and, and they were just delighted with have, you know, little attention was being paid. I think I think the announcement made the kind of front page of The Daily Telegraph that morning but it was kind of it was right at you had to have almost a microscope to see it. And I remember sort of, they pointed me towards a pizza Archer pizza which in the Sydney Morning Herald that talks about Labour's Environment Policy not not so much as All target as a as a zero target as a no target. And I thought they maybe they wouldn't be that happy with that characterization. But they absolutely love that characterization. They love the fact that they, they'd launched this climate change policy, and it really hadn't made any kind of tabloid splash. And maybe, you know, that change of

Dan Ilic  10:21  
attitude for added to have the telegraph? Yeah, if

Nick Bryant  10:23  
it was meaningful. I mean, one thing it did do, seemingly, is to neutralize the issue of climate change. But I mean, you had you had an election, obviously, where it was hardly discussed, which is, you know, extraordinary. I think, you know, if you're, if you're going to be looking back on the federal election in 2022, and in 100 years time, and climate change doesn't even really feature. You know, I think people are going to be thinking about what was going on.

Dan Ilic  10:47  
Just absolutely astonishing that, you know, the media kind of skipped over climate change a lot with this election, and the major parties weren't talking about it at all. Yet. The election result is all about climate, you had these climate independents, pretty much dismantle the Liberal Party, you had these greens on the rise. The one thing that everyone wasn't talking about was the actual clincher for this election. Yeah, I

Nick Bryant  11:10  
think that's absolutely fascinating. And it's a brilliant point, you know, this will be regarded as the climate change election, but it wasn't the Climate Change Campaign. from it. I thought that was fascinating. I mean, the Guardian did some quite interesting research, I think hooking up with a university, I think it was one of the ones in Melbourne, they looked at the discrepancy between the questions that were being asked on the campaign trail, and the sort of questions that were really in the uppermost in people's minds, actually, cost of living was number one, on both. But climate change, there was a discrepancy, you know, it was far higher in the minds of voters than it was in the minds of journalists, when they're asking those questions. Yeah, look, it was a really small ball campaign, I think, you know, I think journalists need to have a bit of a think about how they covered it, to be honest, because I think the the gotcha line of questioning, which rarely went into climate change, did it, it was more on the kind of it spoke about the financialization of politics in Australia, and how, you know, obsessively people focus on economic indices often rather than mental health indices, or environmental indices, or that kind of thing. You know, I think that media probably does need to have a bit of a rethink about how habit covers these campaigns, because those kind of big issues just weren't given the airing that they should have been given.

Dan Ilic  12:26  
The perfect metaphor was I think, elbow second big stuff up on the campaign trail when he couldn't remember the NDIS policy. You know, that, you know, the, the forum for that press conference where they were at that at that press conference? No, where were they? They were at the Smart Energy Council.

Alex Dyson  12:44  
prints, there are this Smart Energy Council Expo Albo had just jumped out of an electric semi trailer. And we're walking around the conference floor cut, like surrounded by batteries and solar panels and wind farms, right. And the thing that the journalist asked about with his NDIS policy that he didn't know the answer to and had to get a press release to read off, that is the perfect, it's a perfect summation of where this where this, this media pack was at. You're at an you're at a green tech conference, not asking anything about green tech, but trying to catch the opposition leader off off track on something other other than green tech.

Nick Bryant  13:21  
Dan, it's a brilliant metaphor. I'm going to squirrel that away and use it sometime in the future, because I think it's absolutely perfect. You're right. I was actually with Alba the next day. I was with him. He went to a homeless shelter. I don't sorry, a place that was a food bank. That was that was giving people food for people that were struggling as largely a result of COVID. You know, they've seen people they've never seen before. And again, the questioning really wasn't about that. What was what happened was a rerun of the NDIS. Gotcha for the day before. So we had a cut a two day gotcha, where the reporter who asked the NDIS question kept asking it the day later. Yeah, it was kind of nuts. I think what I saw for this time, though, Dan, and I, you know, I've rarely seen this in Britain. I've seen it a lot in America, journalists getting booed, especially in Trump rallies and things like that. Yeah, I'm kind of used to that. But it's, it came as a surprise in Australia. I spent a day with Morrison and I spent a day with Albanese. And these days did not I mean, you know, they put on these kind of dreadful photo ops, you know, they, they were their high visibility jackets, you know, it looks like it's sort of transcontinental costume party. And, you know, then there's this half hour that, you know, all the journalists sign themselves up for they get to ask the questions now. My David Morrison, Mia with elbow. Those press conferences, both ended up with the journalist being heckled by members of the public, who just thought their questioning was was going too far. It was turning the election into a game a trivial pursuit. It was, you know, not treating. And it was really interesting. And, you know, what, what really worries me? I mean, talking sort of big picture is this disconnect between the public and the press now and you're seeing it across the world? You know, misinformation is the kind of benefit free of this breakdown in trust. And it really worries me. And, you know, we need to raise our game, whether it's political coverage, or whether it's climate change coverage. I mean, I just think that is an obvious thing that we all need to do as journalists, one of the things I think we should do as climate change journalists, you know, how are our kids going to look at our coverage, and when they grew up, how future generations I think that should be the test of our, our climate change coverage. And I think, you know, frankly, most of most of us are found and wanting on that front.

Dan Ilic  15:32  
Yeah, I mean, I'm Ben English isn't I mean, he's obviously making great strides by alerting Tim Blair and Andrew bolt and Peter cradling set the climate coverage for The Daily Telegraph by saying it's not real.

Nick Bryant  15:43  
I mean, I'll tell you one thing I did get to do in New York, which was really interesting. I got to cover the Greta tunberg speech at the United Nations. Remember when she sort of stood there and just harangue the delegates? How dare you? It was just this electrifying moment. I mean, you know, a lot of the speeches at the United Nations are known for how long they went on. I think Fidel Castro used to speak for about three days. Greta Thunberg, gave this extraordinary speech. And I mentioned it, not only because it's an extraordinary historical moment, I got to interview a couple of days before, oh, how amazing. That was fascinating. And partly because they told me beforehand, rather, doesn't do small talk,

which for a prayer is kind of paralyzing.

Dan Ilic  16:26  
What was your opening line now? Well, I

Nick Bryant  16:28  
said to her handlers, and Greta tunberg, is part of a very sophisticated media operation there. And it's really interesting to see her at the heart of this kind of group that uses her as this, I mean, gives her this platform and also understands the value of what she has to say, and the power of the way she says it. I said to her look, you know, I'm a Brit. I mean, we just talk about the weather, surely, surely, she wants to talk about that. But

Dan Ilic  16:53  
Nick, weather is not climate.

Nick Bryant  16:56  
But I mentioned it, because it was the only time in my career, that my kids actually thought I had a worthwhile job. And I think that's interesting, because I thought, you know, Dad, you should be spending more time doing climate change. And, you know, my kids actually took part in the protest that she led through the streets of New York, you know, they, they took the day off school, or whatever, they went on strike. And, you know, they were there, and they were young kids, then I mean, they were kind of 10 and eight, I think, even nine and seven. Anyway, you know, it was that classic Daddy, what did you do in the war? You know, and I think that's a good question for journalists to ask themselves. When it comes to covering covering climate change?

Dan Ilic  17:35  
I think so I you know, I used to be a regular on insiders up until I put billboards in New York City making fun of climate change. And I got asked not to come on inside is because of that, like, because it was deemed that you know, that act turned me into something more than a different than a comedian and that I couldn't, I couldn't possibly go on inside as any more to make jokes about cartoons that have been written in the newspaper. So they

Nick Bryant  17:59  
had you on inside. It's in that segment where? Okay, right?

Dan Ilic  18:04  
I've done I've done that many times. So, but it was after that it was after I put a funny joke on myself in on a billboard in New York City, that I was deemed an activist and could no longer possibly, objectively make jokes about the cartoons that other cartoonists have done?

Nick Bryant  18:21  
Well, I think it's a really interesting question, because I do think that climate change journalism fits within the model of a great tradition of campaigning journalism. You know, we used to talk about

Dan Ilic  18:39  
like the macro muckraking going way back, you know,

Nick Bryant  18:43  
we talk about the sort of heroic era of British newspapers when they sort of showed, you know, the drugs that cause flu minimized and and, you know, it's seen as great campaigning, journalism. And, you know, I think, for me, I think I don't see the reason why we shouldn't regard climate change as an issue where we should have great campaigning, journalism. And if journalists face the accusation that they are straying into kind of activism. Do you know what I think we can kind of, I think we can live with that. I think we can live with that. I think there are certain crises that require certainly an end to the kind of both sides tourism,

Dan Ilic  19:29  
it's hard to know is James Monroe, an activist is he like, when you when you say folks like for the like, of the strident news COVID. And on the insiders, those guys are just activists for a totally other thing?

Nick Bryant  19:41  
Yeah. And I think a lot of news organizations now sort of getting away from that guy on both sides or as a model. You know, the BBC, for years is sort of said the debate is over about the science. So we're not going to sort of we're not going to start our morning on the Today Show, which is the big radio show in Britain and everybody listens to with a debate Pitzer climate change activists against the climate change skeptic, we're just not bothered with that debates gone. We're moving on, we're gonna think about solutions. And I mean, maybe, maybe some would regard that as, as activism. But it's, it's just, you know, there's a truth bias there. It's not a kind of bias towards it is the truth bias. And I mean, I think that, you know, the truth bias is always the kind of key one that we should we should veer towards.

Dan Ilic  20:27  
It is of course, a global issue. And you've been speaking to people all over the world about how they cover it, including the Guardians Pacific editor from Samoa.

Nick Bryant  20:37  
Yeah, lunga breather, Cheryl Jackson, she is absolutely fantastic about this. I mean, I thought she was really interesting. I mean, first of all, climate change for her. It's a story that dominates the front page, the back page, and every page in between, you know, very little happens in Samoa, that doesn't involve climate change. And, you know, I was intrigued to speak to her about the challenge, you know, how do you keep telling the same story every every single day? You know, the conversation I had with her was really interesting, because she spoke about how patronizing she often thinks Western coverage of the Pacific Islands is, you know, they

Dan Ilic  21:11  
gotta grab for her just

Unknown Speaker  21:12  
Yeah. It has always been the sexy topic in international media to talk about the sinking islands. All the helpless little islands in the Pacific. They are sinking, they are dying. We are not about that narrative in the Pacific. We're actually about empowering. We're a proud people, Nick, you know, Polynesians, Polynesians are not taking anything lying down, you meet the Micronesians. They will not be taking this lying down, and they are not doing that. And so those are the stories we love to tell. Great.

Nick Bryant  21:47  
Yeah, I love that. She's saying, you know, you've got to get away from the doom and gloom narrative, you've got to get away from the narrative that we are helpless, you know, come to Polynesia. She said, an invitation I will happily accept editor and see the laughter You know, it's it's a place that isn't of living with this, you know, kind of mournful way. She said that she said, we don't grieve every day. You know, we are a joyous people. We laugh a lot. And he Polynesians are very faithful people, they wouldn't believe in a bright future. And there's a classic sort of white savior syndrome here as well, isn't it that it needs us as the white west to come and save these Islanders? And, uh, you know, again, she just rejects that sort of paradigm. Yeah. But when it when it comes to the reporting, I thought it was absolutely wonderful to speak to her and, and to hear that because it shows that even sort of well intentioned climate change coverage can can often go a bit of skew.

Dan Ilic  22:45  
Yeah. And you also spoke to Andrew McCormick, adjunct professor at Columbia University, Columbia Journalism Review. What kind of coverage does he do?

Nick Bryant  22:55  
Well, he's a really interesting guy, because he was in the US Navy. And he decided, you know, what's the best way I can sort of serve? And he decided to leave the military and actually to become a climate change correspondent, you know, we were talking to him about, you know, what good climate change coverage looks like this. This problem of, you know, for me, I mean, often climate change is a, what I call a diary story, rather than the daily story. It's a subject that gets a lot of attention around the time that the big summits like Glasgow, but falls off the radar in between. And I think a lot of the coverage that you see around the big conferences is often to expiate the guilt of newsrooms, you know, I haven't been doing an athlete's that's really monster around the climate change summits, you know. And, and he sort of accepts that that's a big problem. I think one of the interesting things he sat down was that COVID has shown how creative, you know, the journalistic profession can be you know, a lot of creative energy was brought to how to cover COVID. You know, so we saw things like, you know, the redesign of front pages to accommodate, you know, daily stats to tell us how many cases there were, how many desks there were that kind of stuff. I mean, he spoke about the New York Times one day had an amazing headline during the middle of COVID in New York. And I mean, this was when 100 people a day were dying in New York City alone. And I had COVID earlier on in the fear that that that brought, you mentioned this Times headline, and that, you know, the New York Times isn't known for its sort of radical newspaper design, far from it. But they had this spike in the death rate that that actually went right through the front page, and up into the masthead. So that kind of disrupted the words New York Times and, you know, he just showed a few examples of how during COVID You know, there was a real rethink, how are we going to tell this dramatic story, how we're going to tell this kind of emergency crisis story. And he doesn't always see that same creative approach when it comes to climate change reporting, and I thought that I thought that was really interesting.

Dan Ilic  24:53  
Yeah, I'd love to see the daily carbon dioxide parts per million stat on the front of the Daily Telegraph. That's what madingley shouldn't be doing. It's 113,000,413 parts per million Ben put that on the front cover.

Nick Bryant  25:07  
Finding those stats is a bit tricky, is it? Because it's kind of like, you know, pretty meaningless. And I think that gets you into another area of climate change reporting, which is how do you turn the stats into interesting stories? And the way to get to that is always through the humans, the human face.

Dan Ilic  25:22  
What's it going to take? What's it going to take for news orgs to really focus on climate to bring those stories to bear that are more than just a diary event? The IPCC?

Nick Bryant  25:32  
Yeah. I mean, Sky News is quite interesting study is a very different entity in, in Britain, it is in, in Australia, in Australia, it's not owned by Rupert Murdoch anymore. It's, and they actually have a nightly new show devoted solely devoted to climate, you know, they have made a daily commitment to actually say, you know, I don't know how long the program is 1015 minutes every night, we're gonna bring you a, we're going to bring you climate change news. And I think that is a really welcome development, when you kind of make that that sort of commitment, because that doesn't look to me, like window dressing, that, that that feels that's that feels meaningful to me. And, you know, they've done it. And, you know, it would be good if other other news organizations follow suit as well. Because, you know, Dan, this is, you know, this is the biggie. I mean, I still think 2020 in 100 years time, you know, we'll look back on 2020. And we'll look at the wildfires in Australia as being a more significant event in terms of the future of the planet, then COVID. You know, we're looking at, we're looking at the fact that people in Sydney were wearing face masks, not because of a an infection, but because of the air quality, because the wildfires and we think that was the most significant thing that happened in 2020. A look, I think, often it requires political leadership to dramatize these issues. I mean, I was actually you know, name dropping horribly, I ended up in a small lunch with Antonio Guterres in New York around

Dan Ilic  27:06  
these guys like Greta Alba. Tony a guitar as

Nick Bryant  27:13  
well, you have a Trump, sir, if you weren't, but it really relates to climate change. But

this one does. And it was it was a small lunch with Antonio Guterres, you know, Secretary under the United Nations, it was in the midst of the obviously wildfires. And, you know, because I love AWS and I've pretty close eye on what was happening here, even though when I lived in, in America, you know, I just said to terrorism, why don't you fly to Australia, stand in front of one of these bushfires or sound as close as you can get. And just use it as this dramatic backdrop to say, we are saying something immeasurably different. Here we are, because he makes these speeches in New York and these sorts of doll settings, you know, the stakeout position at the UN, where they come to the microphone, and you know, it's always the same and the words are often the same as well, he just sort of repeats the same warning that he's made every year. But if you actually repeated those words, with a wildfire, a bushfire happening behind you, it would be so dramatic. And you know, guitarist is just really reluctant to do that he never wants to name and shame countries that are laggards on climate change. And Australia's obviously being one of those. And he just doesn't want to go there. And I think that has been a big problem as well. You know, journalists relies on actors who have real power and and often they are the politicians and the leaders of the UN who aren't delivering the kind of graphic pictorial leadership that sometimes journalist journalist needs to be really really effective.

Dan Ilic  28:50  
I do remember a photo of him in maybe you this conversation you had with him. Nick actually had some effect on him. He he I still remember this photo of him in Fiji in his suit, waist height and water. So it wasn't quite this. He did. I can't claim credit. So maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe Nick Bryant, you are the you're a faceless man behind the Antonia terrorism's photo shoot.

Nick Bryant  29:13  
Anybody who's seen my face with a faceless version of me with

Dan Ilic  29:17  
that's not true, Nick. You know, the other journalists Nick, Brian in New York City. He's got the got his website, Nick, Brian nyc.com. He's got a disclaimer on his website saying I'm not the BBC next, Brian. He's much more handsome than May.

Nick Bryant  29:31  
Oh, I can't believe that's true. But we're there is another name Brian and he he really focuses on sex abuse against kids and he's become I think a lot of people have taken him up in sort of conspiracy theory, circles and, ya know, we, I'm constantly getting I mean, he he, for instance, discovered that Jeffrey Epstein had that, that black book and I'm constantly getting asked to do interviews about Jeffrey Epstein's black book

Dan Ilic  30:00  
Yeah Well Nick thank you it's been a net oh sorry doctor Nick It's been an absolute privilege to have you on greatest moral podcast of our generation

Nick Bryant  30:07  
it's nice to be on thanks thanks for having me

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G'day Fearmongers —

It is with great thanks to the Judith Neilson Institute for Journalism and Ideas we can bring you this excellent conversation about satire and journalism.

Can satire change the world? Never.
Can satire be more powerful than journalism? Doubtful.
Can satire be journalism? Probably not.

Australia's top satirists will ask themselves these questions and come up with the same answers during a special live event from A Rational Fear and JNI.

In this episode of A Rational Fear some of Australia's most available smart arses wrangle with their (questionable) career choices and take a deep dive into satire's ability to replace journalists at half the price.

Featuring cartoonist Cathy Wilcox, Dylan Behan (Newsfighters), Jan Fran (The Project), Ben Jenkins (The Feed), Lewis Hobba (Triple J), and Dan Ilic (A Rational Fear).

Check out the photos below the podcast links 📸 👇

📺 You can watch the whole video of this even exclusively on the A Rational Fear Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear or keep an eye on the @ARationalFear socials for 1 min snippets over the next few weeks.

Big thanks to everyone at JNI who helped us pull it together.

Cheers

Dan Ilic

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Dan Ilic  0:00  
Dan Ilic here with a pre show announcement to let you know that if you missed out on tickets to the opera house show for our 10 years of irrational fear, you can listen to it now it's on the irrational fear Patreon. So go to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear, become a member and you'll see the post there. The audio is a little dodgy because the recording was recorded at quite a high level. So unfortunately, the really loud music of Paul McDermott we had to cut out but the good news is we're going to try and get him on a nother live show next month, so you'll be able to hear that right here on the free fade podcasts, I think. Yeah, so go to irrational fear.com forward slash patreon to hear our 10 years of irrational fear live show live from the Sydney Opera House. It was astonishing. And let me just say Louis hubbers rant about the Queen's Jubilee was something else. It'll make you feel extremely patriotic. Right now. However, you're going to listen to an incredible live show we did at the Judith Nielsen Institute for journalism and ideas about a month ago, about two weeks before the federal election. This was a show loosely about satire versus journalism. I think it was called The joke is mightier than the pen. And we had some of the best satirist in Sydney. Join us on stage to discuss whether comedy or satire is better than journalism right there in the home the crucible of Australian journalism, which is the Judith Nielsen Institute. So please enjoy this live show. If you were a member of the Patreon you probably would have seen the video of this about a month ago. So as he does this thing you get these live shows a little before everyone else. So please go to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear to get early access to our live shows and our special events. All right, catch you later. We're at the Judith Nielsen Institute. It's beautiful. I'm recording my end of irrational fear I'm gonna go out to the urination. Sovereignty was never said we did a treaty. Let's stop the show.

Simon Chilvers  2:00  
A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, Canberra, and gum and section 40 of a rational view recommended listening by immature audience.

Dan Ilic  2:13  
Tonight satirists declare themselves so important they don't actually have to be funny. Journalists declares themselves hilarious after putting 10 Dog pugs in a story about hot dogs. If you can wait a Walkley for a wacky headline where's the Walkley for most scathing Trump impression it's 15 days since the next sales 15 days until the next federal election Saturday stadion punch lines, this is irrational fear.

Lewis Hobba  2:42  
And such natural cheers.

Dan Ilic  2:59  
Putting this in putting your cheese in context, Louis and I just did a show the billboard International Comedy Festival in front of 800 people and it was slightly slightly we were used to a slightly different level of cheering

Lewis Hobba  3:11  
every person here is worth 100 Melbournian

Dan Ilic  3:15  
Welcome to a rational fee on your host former host of CBS his Late Late Show Dan Ilic. And this is irrational fear live at the Judith Nielsen Institute

where we'll be asking the question, is the joke mightier than the pen open open brackets? Probably not close brackets question mark. All right now we've put together a Supreme Team of Sydney's satirist to ask this question or to answer this question and what a team it is the very fact that Sydney has like five employed satirists is astonishing. It says a lot about the political comedy industrial complex, doesn't it? Let's meet our female guest tonight. They are a writer, performer, director and podcaster currently slinging topical jokes at the mainstream media from the bastion of the mainstream media. It is SBS is Ben Jenkins What is it like to be so anti authority but being a part of the authority

Ben Jenkins  4:13  
tremendously ironic? I'm really digging into my Amicus roots by producing satire with government money

Dan Ilic  4:23  
and we've got a three time Walkley award winning cartoonist who has jokes his sharpest pencil it's Kathy Wilcox friend of the show have you killed anyone with your with your pencil before?

Cathy Wilcox  4:41  
Look just bugs I guess. infest the scanner and things like that a little wild corruption. Oh, that's

Lewis Hobba  4:50  
when the radical loony kills a duck a day

Dan Ilic  4:59  
and there are comedy created purveyor of wacky clips former Chase aired and the creator of the topical comedy podcasts of news fighters is Dylan Bane Dylan You're a faceless man of satire. How does that feel to have your face out here for once? I've never had this many people in my edit suite in my life. Walkley award winning opinion as to has risen to the heights of becoming one of Australia's greatest ever smart officers. It's Jan January you're at the top now you're Australia's number one smart is what makes me do

Jan Fran  5:35  
you know, I just want to just create human like God like a God, just that sort of thing. I'm the spontaneous flatulence part of just FYI. So you're in for

Dan Ilic  5:49  
and he's the host of Triple J drive. But what sets him apart on this panel is that he is a taller, cheaper Andrew Denton, Lewis Lewis, thanks for being Andrew Denton on this pedal.

Lewis Hobba  6:02  
Thank you. Yeah, I'm the only Andrew Denton who shows up to events and 20

Ben Jenkins  6:07  
if I if I get Andrew Johnson went into the machine with the fly, but it was there was a drop in.

Lewis Hobba  6:13  
Not I'm not in the category of COVID. So he sends me out of his body. Does

Dan Ilic  6:18  
everyone give COVID to limit your immune right now? All right, great. Now tonight as a panel, we as well as you were going to decide on this answer on the question. If jokes are better than journalism, it is a bit of a hard one. But all of us has an important role in this room. Because at the end, we're going to take a poll and then we're going to put it on this sheet which Kathy has designed and then we're going to mail it to the Governor General and it will be then sent to royal assent and we've even got

Unknown Speaker  6:58  
Royal Assent

Lewis Hobba  7:05  
with damping Seto to me I was like I don't know what Royal Assent Was anyone else don't know what royal was

Ben Jenkins  7:10  
like don't worry the sound will fix Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  7:12  
Okay side of royal decent.

Ben Jenkins  7:16  
The office to get to a throne.

Dan Ilic  7:19  
Rolled to said isn't that Prince Andrew? We've actually got our very own special postie. posi. Sarah is here. She's going to take take whatever we decide tonight and mail it direct to the Governor General. It's very exciting. All right. Now before we get into the nitty gritty, I just want to talk to you a little bit about news consumption in Australia. We've done a visit very research heavy, this part of the show. Now first of all, there's some pretty interesting things that are happening with media consumption in Australia right now. And it's all got to do with those damn meddling kids. In 2020, a survey of young people found that social media outrank their family and friends as television as their main source of news. Now this statistic isn't surprising. We all know that young people can't get enough of their damn phones. But when you put it in context of the bigger picture, you can see just how online as a news source has grown across generations with newspapers in the top three news sources for only the pre Boomer generation. That is crazy. Oh, that's older than Lewis. That is pretty astounding effect in 2020. For the first time, online news sources outranked all the other forms of news in terms of consumption for Australians, and also young folks, for the first time, I actually setting the agenda as to how those new sources are being influenced in Australia, which is super interesting. There was no kind of greater moment for satire. I think, though the power of satire. Then, when Facebook turned off the taps to news in Australia, I don't know if you remember this is this is on their platform in 2021. That was about 300 years ago. I think there are people in this room who weren't even born then. In case you don't remember, we made this handy explainer to remind you just what happened.

Rupert Murdoch  9:10  
So why isn't there any news on your Facebook news feed and here's a quick explainer by me Rupert Murdoch left hand on general of the News Corp and assorted expeditionary forces. Now, Mark Zuckerberg owns a website, Facebook, and Google owns a website called Google's and their websites own the data of all Australians who use it, which means they know what you want before you do. They're really good at selling advertising. I own a newspapers that are really bad at selling advertising. And those newspapers own the Australian Government and the Australian government makes laws so one day on a whim I thought Geez Louise with bad at selling air, everyone 60 month interest free deals for electrical computers furniture, bedding and flooring from Harvey Norman. Some people want magnetic lashes mailings that make your bum pop and other. We have no idea. But then I said to myself, Rupert, you own a good government, just sitting there doing nothing. Maybe you can get them to force the blokes with the websites that are good at selling ads to give us money. Then I called the government to my house by private jet made them pay for it. And I said, Hello, government, man, I forget their names. If you still enjoy being the government, can you do this? And they said, We do still enjoy being the government boss. Yes. And yes, we can do that. Now the websites that are good at selling ads have to by law, give me money. And the best part about it, Googles and Facebooks give the money straight to me tax free, and we wouldn't have it any other way of why start paying tax now. Some journalists would say Oh, but there's no way to guarantee that money will be invested in New Journalism. Well, none of those journalists work for me. I don't hire. You may have noticed Facebook news is back. For now. Zuckerberg told the government is only going to pay us if he feels like it. Well, I respect that. At the end of the day, Facebook, Google and I all agree that we're not going to pay any money. Because why would you? There are a bunch of cowards.

Dan Ilic  11:59  
So, what's this got to do with new satire? Well, on that day, seven out of the 10, top postings from websites on Facebook were news websites, some entertainment news, and there's a couple of satire in there too. But the very following day, nine out of the 10 links posted on Facebook, we're delivering news from satire sites, and the audience is young and you know it. Very lucky to have John here from the chaser. He is one of the one of the slaves of the chaser working for minimum wage fleeing jokes going around it boys tonight. So we got the tutor advocate makeup 12345, the top five The Chaser in six and seven in the budget advocate, and the only one website to not actually be satire in the top 10. On that day was the Penrith Panthers website. And that's arguable, that's arguable it's arguable that they don't satire. Yeah. Do they even exist? pretty astounding stuff there. For folks in the audience who don't know what is a particular advocate. It's like the onion in the outback. It's a satirical newspaper set in the outback. This is their front page for today. I really like this one about elbows latest gaff journalists trick questions backfires, as Alberto is able to name entire Rabbitohs 1971 grand final side. Very good. This is some other headlines from today. Channel Seven reveals Sonia Kruger will stay on after big brother to moderate next leaders debate. This is one from the from a few months back that I love bloke who regularly buys pictures of strangers in pub bathrooms not sure what's inside this vaccine. And this one good is always this one always rolls out whenever there's a bit of gun violence in America, Australia enjoys another peaceful day under the oppressive gun control regime. And of course, there's the chaser and the chaser has very kind of similar sort of deal on their, on their front page as well. Very funny stuff. And thankfully, Charles sent me Charles from the Chase has sent me this data about their audience. And it's pretty astounding to see, you know, 2534 35 to 44, all the way to 54. That's a huge chunk of the audience there. A bunch of those young people will start consuming the chaser and bitter at bat at their age and then continue on for years to come. But let's put it in comparison, the footprints of these kinds of websites to other mainstream media. So SBS who Ben works for on Instagram has 117,000 followers on SBS Instagram. At the very top you've got ABC News.

Lewis Hobba  14:40  
Take that Ben vs loser for SBS.

Dan Ilic  14:47  
ABC is Australia's most trusted news brand, that's for sure. Seven 789,000 followers on Instagram. Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to how many followers that are advocate head to toe, shaking it up two fellas, three and 1000

Jan Fran  15:05  
approaching a male I

Dan Ilic  15:06  
recommend reaching a mil anybody over a male 1.1 It is not under 50,000 followers. They are the biggest news brand on Instagram in Australia.

Lewis Hobba  15:17  
And also they make a delicious beer.

Dan Ilic  15:24  
Yeah, and also in terms of power of satire and kind of communicating ideas. A simple article like carbon capture and storage might get 25,000 clicks on ABC News. But when turned into interesting package with satire and jokes, with juice media, you can get close to a million. So satire reaches audiences. And I want to ask the fear mongers here tonight. Let's talk about it if a scoop falls in the forest, and no one is there to see it doesn't even exist. Do ratings matter here do cliques matter here?

Ben Jenkins  15:58  
Well, as somebody from SPS, I have to say straight away, ratings don't matter. In fact, in fact,

I see ratings in a similar way to golf. The lower you get you win. I'm gonna go on to talk about this. In the little thing I'm talking about, I think when we talk about reach, we still have to talk about what that reach does. Because it's, you know, it's one thing to say, only certain people read this article, but heaps people saw this sketch. What what's it doing for those people? You know, what I mean? Like, like, what information is being conveyed? I'm not saying these things are completely devoid of information. But I am saying that, like, you know, what's the outcome there? Because from the creators point of view, those numbers are wackadoo Gray, like people are watching it, and they're being entertained by it, or at least they're sharing it. I hate watching whatever else, but like, to paraphrase, Tao carob, Derrick hanging from the castle, it's what you do with it, you know what I mean? Like, it's what, what's going on when people are ingesting? That is my question.

Lewis Hobba  17:01  
Yeah. Like the, for example, the like, vaccine joke on the tutor about, you know, men who Beiping is in a bathroom, but won't take the vaccine that was like, you know, that was a great joke. Everyone made that joke at some point. And, but like, No, that is not helping, like you don't like if you sent that to an anti Vaxxer. They're just gonna be like, well, it's just funny, stern fucking joke. And like, don't get me wrong. It's not like you can send them a well reasoned argument that will do it either. But it's kind of like, I don't necessarily think that a satire, satire reaching an audience is the same as satire, teaching an audience and also

Ben Jenkins  17:35  
as as an article like that article that languished on those low numbers like would have had one would hope it's ABC. So you know, it's gonna be good, like, a lot of interesting things that these people wouldn't necessarily have considered or heard. But yeah, I mean, I do think it's like, really interesting that like, this stuff has the cut through that it does. And I think it speaks to as much of the sort of skill and ability of the satirist as much as it does to the lack of talent in Australian media, not NSA. You know what I mean? Like, if this is, I think it's kind of going like that, if that makes sense.

Dan Ilic  18:09  
Yeah, Jen, you make tons of viral kind of videos that go gangbusters. Do you ever dare to look at the analytics to see how long people have watched?

Jan Fran  18:17  
That's all I'm doing? Yes, I think like it to answer the first question. If a scoop falls in the forest, no one hears it, like does it make a sound? Does it land anywhere? The short answer is not really until you need some kind of a baseline to try and decipher the new spectrum. So for example, you can say, oh, Sky News is over here. SBS is over here. Nobody watches either of those things. That doesn't really matter. But they're kind of

pretending Yeah, so I think the importance of of stories or news outlets to exist, even though they don't get a super high audience is just to be able to diversify, I suppose the media landscape, right, because we do have a diversity problem in terms of ownership rather than, you know, cultural or gender diverse.

Lewis Hobba  19:14  
news.com we have the Australian and we have the Guardian male and the Herald. Plenty of news.

Dan Ilic  19:24  
As a subscriber of the Sydney Morning Herald, I feel like sometimes I'm subsidizing your Twitter account.

Cathy Wilcox  19:31  
You probably are. And I would say, you know, whether we whether what I do has cut through or not, is demonstrated by the fact that if I do things that are that are universally critical of the government, they love me. There's, you know, lots of retweets and lots of likes and all the rest of it. And then I do one cartoon about, you know, maybe elbows not not performing as well as he might. So I don't know if it's ringing anyone around. Less occasionally someone might say, okay, fair point, but mostly people. That's really unfair. I mean, the current changes I

Jan Fran  20:08  
have water drops. Very, very

Ben Jenkins  20:11  
often. It's the sort of other side of what you were saying Jen about, like, a diversified media and like, it's, obviously you want a range of views and the media is far more like, I don't mean ethnically diverse, although, I mean, that would be nice. I mean, like, you know, so it's not just one thing, but what comes from having all these little pockets is a siloing effect. And Twitter is really a good example of that where everybody's really solid on their own thing. And so the polarization there of like you making a relatively benign criticism of say the leader of Labour Party all of a sudden they just don't they don't get that from their own internal silos so they think what's happening, she's been turned.

Dan Ilic  20:57  
The only time irrational fear has lost subscribers on Patreon across the month has been the day that we had Joe Hildebrand on so we can make fun of him to his face about new scopes turned to being a green environmental publication. We spent half an hour making jokes to Joe Hildebrand to his face about news Corp's track record on climate change.

Lewis Hobba  21:18  
But I also think that is an interesting point in terms of like satire reaching an audience is because, like, for something like that, for instance, like we we don't make we don't make our living off irrational fear. So that's fine. Like we can go Lewis

Dan Ilic  21:32  
Lewis doesn't make his living rational.

Lewis Hobba  21:36  
Which is lucky because I think I'm about $1,000 in the hole to this podcast. But what all these delicious soft drinks and once again, I'm gonna cheat a bit us sponsoring my lifestyle. Nova like it means like in the future, you may not get your Hildebrand on, right? Because you can't afford to not have that or like there are plenty of satirical places, particularly places like a tutor or whatever, who again, make so much money from beer doesn't matter. But there if you if you are a freelance satirist, you can't afford to piss off your audience, though it's really interesting. It's also finished, which, whereas if you are a journalistic entity, if you're if you're part of a corporation that has some backbone, you actually have the money to fund that.

Jan Fran  22:22  
Yeah, interesting. If you have some backbone? Yeah, that's the big question. This describes

Ben Jenkins  22:28  
as the sub stack effect, which is, you know, that sub stack is like a newsletter service, basically, that allows you to really easily monetize,

Dan Ilic  22:35  
you know, there are three people in this room who know exactly what.

Ben Jenkins  22:40  
So basically, what happens is when when a journalist has a big following or columnist usually has been following, they go fuck this, I'm going to leave my outlet and go to substack get the money directly. And it's super easy to set up and your and your, your audience has to follow you. But what happens is because you're suddenly beholden, not to your editor, and not to your paper, but to the freaks, who give you money, it creates this crazy feedback loop where you start sort of writing more and more to please them and all of a sudden you have 20,000 bosses, and you see those numbers go up and down. So it's like this real time thing where it's like, is this what you want? Is this what you want? Is this what you want?

Dan Ilic  23:15  
And let me know the 372 people that pay for rational fear and Patreon completely. Excellent. All right, ladies and gentlemen and other folks in the room, please give it up for Benji.

Unknown Speaker  23:28  
Oh that was a great point.

Lewis Hobba  23:36  
And stop talking ben Jenkins started.

Ben Jenkins  23:38  
Yes, sir. Look, I'm a bit worried. Reading back over this as I was before you guys walked in that what follows is less an amusing sort of reflection on the nature of political satire and more a full blown mental breakdown. 10 years in the making, unleashed on a crowd who didn't ask for any of this. So please, bear with me because for over a decade in one form or another electron have worked for the chaser. That's where I started. I've worked in the field of political comedy, and only now having been asked to talk to you about it, do I reflect that I have no idea what it's for. And this troubles me and It troubles me. Because political comedy is a mode of comedy that unlike its less serious cousins in the sweeping halls of chuckle Manor seems to insist that it is in fact for something beyond the convenience of laughs goofs Japes, etc, from the comedian to the viewer, there's a worthiness to it inherent in the form that suggests that in the creation and ingestion of satire, something larger than entertainment is taking place. But here's the thing. Every time I try and articulate what that is, I start to sweat. Now there are two cliches that I've been carrying around in my head for the past decade that have been a comfort to me and they are this set. I can change minds where conventional journal journalism cannot, and satire holds the powerful to account. But when I hold these up, due to any kind of serious scrutiny, they fall apart now, just quickly, I just want to say for the purposes of this meltdown, I'm really only concerned with the kind of satire that hyperreactive news cycle style of political comedy, something happens in the world. And within a week, the satirist has released a piece on a week is actually quite long. You know, the headlines you saw there that was a day turn around the work that I do on the feed, that's four days. And whether that takes the form of a sketch or a comedian being serious behind a desk or a monologue or a cartoon or whatever giggle pot, we're putting our insights in and giggle pot is a technical term. So the reason I'm leaving out satirical novels, or films or TV shows is that they represent just a fraction of a fraction of comedy, political comedy currently being produced. And here in Australia, that fraction is basically a rounding error. And because it's really the only game in town, it's also where I've spent most of my career. So I feel qualified for a little mortified to reach the conclusion that when it comes to those two aims, the changing of minds and the holding of powerful to account, this ubiquitous style of political comedy is outside of the gratification of the maker and viewer. Useless. I also want to point out and I do feel this is very important in relation to you, not all hating me that what follows applies just as much to a lot of the stuff that I've produced in my career as it does to everybody else. So let's go Saturdaya changes minds. I want to ask you a question. When was the last time you changed your mind? About anything? No, what brand of home is to buy? Or what stocks to wear? That's something big something like how you feel about climate change, or what party you're vote for, or any of the handfuls of beliefs that make you you. This is an incredibly rare thing to happen to an adult. There's a really good book by an Australian philosopher called element Gordon Smith called stop being reasonable. And I read it a few years ago, and it planted this seed of doubt in my mind, that's the first question she asked in the book, when was the last time that you changed your mind? Because if this has happened to you, in the recent past, this kind of seismic shift in thinking on an issue that we're talking about here, I'll bet it was for something I'll bet it was because of something that happened to you, or to somebody you love, or a lengthy conversation you had, or just the long and boring chipping away at a premise until something just came loose. What I'm willing to bet didn't happen to you on the road to Damascus is that you watch the three minute sketch on the issue and completely changed your thinking. And there was a good reason why I'm skeptical about that. A lot of political comedy is terrible, like Voltaire's remark that the Holy Roman Empire wasn't holding or Roman nor an empire. The overwhelming majority of political comedy is neither political nor comedy. Topical satire has become in essence, the satire is saying the opposite of what they actually believe, but in a hat.

In order to enjoy most modern political comedy, you have to already be on board with the premise from the very start, the audience needs to know that the sadder is hates the people they hate, thinks the things that they think are stupid or stupid and likes the things that they like Tom Lehrer, some of you may know one of most famous satirists in America in the olden days, he had this to say of satire, he said, the audience usually has to be with you, I'm afraid. I always regarded myself as not even preaching to the converted, I was titillating the converted. It is a deeply in curious way of processing the world around us. And what's more leaves zero chance that anyone who doesn't already think as you think will be persuaded that we're gonna be wrong here. I don't think for a moment that good satire reaches across the aisle and some sort of milk toast centrism. But what I am saying is that if we are going to have an endless churn of super partisan satire, where our ideological opponents are pantomime villains, we can also turn around and expect it to do anything but the mild titillation of the already faithful. And this is a point that I keep coming back to that modern political comedy is by its nature, deeply curious. I've said this in writings elsewhere, but one of I believe one of the only truly worthwhile things we can do with the time we're given on Earth is have a nice, long think about how that world works, and how we work and how the people in it work. Modern political comedy discourages that impulse in both the creator and the viewer stranding, both in an endless feedback loop of ever loud louder choruses of I know, right? I know, right? I know. Right? So let's just quickly move on to satire holds the powerful to account this gets repeated a lot. It's the breakfast is the most important meal of the day for political discourse. And it's a matter that I have to admit, I have been skeptical of for a while. One fairly obvious piece of evidence against this is that if the powerful truly were afraid of being held to account by satirical news programs that wouldn't voluntarily appear on quite so many of them. They wouldn't take to social media to share clips where they're lampooned accompanied by self effacing comment, like, not sure about this one, they wouldn't go they wouldn't go out of their way to get photos of themselves with the satirists. but many do. And obviously the satirist themselves were serious about business of holding these people to account they wouldn't pose for these photos. What we have is a relationship that looks less like say, look more like symbiosis than any kind of antagonism. And what's more, if it were true that a student mockery, incisive with the poison pen and all that was in fact a formidable weapon against tyranny, then given the abundance of both satire and tyranny, it shouldn't be difficult to find a real world example of this account holding taking place, but it is difficult, it's incredibly difficult, and why should they be afraid? I mean, the limits of satire as an agent of any kind of meaningful change are fairly well catalogued often by the satirist himself. To quote another long dead person when he founded the establishment Club in 1961. Peter Cook told reporters that he was hoping to modelled on those wonderful Berlin cabarets that did so much to stop the rise of Hitler. And speaking of Hitler, a segue that I really do try to avoid where possible. How did he feel about chaplains? Vicious skewering in The Great Dictator? Well, he fucking loved it. The man own two copies. And speaking about dictators, yeah. Wow. Speaking about dictators, there I go again. Donald Trump changed the satire calculation entirely. The Trump era despite breathless predictions did not prove a boon for the earnest desolating sent in America. A common explanation given was you can no longer ridicule politics because it itself had become so inherently ridiculous, in and of itself, that this was such a popular refrain always seemed faintly stupid to me, because it doesn't even intuitively passes true. Ridiculous, people are in fact quite easy to ridicule. It's right there in the name. But and here's the crucial point for ridicule to be enjoyable and satisfying. The party being ridiculed must be capable of shame. As crusty once said, The saps got to have dignity. It's often said that politicians are so hard to pin down post Trump is because we're living in a post truth universe. But that's gets it wrong. The universe we currently occupy is post shame. people who'd like to talk about the power of satire often invoke the Emperor's New Clothes where only a brave truth telling child is able to voice what the others won't. But the Emperor wears no clothes and the child has right the child, the crowd sees the truth of this and the Emperor is shamed. What Trump showed very clearly is that if the Emperor waits a second until the kid has set his pace, and then says, Yes, I do, actually, and then goes about his day with his cock and balls out a little shit doesn't really have a comeback.

In closing, there's one thing that satire can do. And it's offer the audience a kind of catharsis, to release of emotion of anger or frustration of rage. And while it feels good, but here's my question. Do we really want to be venting that stuff out into the ether isn't the pressure of those feelings, what drives people to make meaningful action to take that rage and focus it on organizing to effect meaningful material change? Because here's the thing, if all we're doing here is making stuff that makes us feel smart, for people who already agree with us with no real impact on those with whom we disagree on the targets of our idea, then all we're really doing is an act of self gratification. And all it really achieves is a kind of temporary, good feeling in the form of a release. And there is a word for that. Thank you. Ranking, ranking, ranking ranking.

Dan Ilic  33:22  
I thought, well, that's strange.

Ben Jenkins  33:27  
I couldn't find my mic.

Dan Ilic  33:31  
Well, that's it for the show. So thanks very much for coming, everyone. That was really great. That was super, super good. Ben, I think about a lot of that stuff all the time. One of the rational fish shows we did was in Baga, we did climb a hill, Syria did a tour of climate vulnerable venues, and bigger was one of them. And it was remarkable after that show, sitting in the pub, having folks come up to us, and thank us for doing the show there because they wanted to laugh about climate change is they'd had like their houses or burned their house. There's like, it's just one of those things where folks were coming up to us in the pub and saying, oh, you know, that was so wonderful to hear jokes about that. And it truly felt for the first time in my 15 year career that we were useful.

Ben Jenkins  34:12  
I do think though, like, I didn't put this in because I was already speaking for 45 minutes. But the other side of catharsis is a galvanizing sense. It's the it's the other side of it. So catharsis is like, you know, from the Greek it means like to purify on purge, it's like a release of something. Whereas like the galvanizing sense is the opposite of that where it actually hardens people in a good way. It makes them stronger, and it makes them feel seen and it makes them feel powerful. So I do think that's an element of it, too,

Dan Ilic  34:41  
which is why we're going to Lismore to do a show it's going to be Trump is an interesting character. A lot of folks when I was in America doing satire for American, the broadcaster over there, were saying to me, Hey, you get it's got to be so good. It's got to be so good to do Trump jokes. You're so lucky Trump's in power As as people who had to make fun of Trump, did you enjoy that period caffeine?

Cathy Wilcox  35:07  
It was it was sort of invigorating in the first place and then exhausting in the second place because you realize that you couldn't keep up with the amount of of stuff that he was doing. You'd be initially you know, waking up extra early to see what had happened overnight and things. And then you'd be going well, I do Trump this week. Well, no, it doesn't really matter if I do Trump this week, because he'll have done he'll do something next week. I can hold off till then. I think there's

Ben Jenkins  35:31  
a deliberate strategy in a way I mean, like, it's always it's always hard to, like, you know, give any kind of credit to him and his inner workings. It's sort of like trying to work in a life of zebra but like,

Cathy Wilcox  35:43  
when octuple lies does end up making a single lie worthless,

Lewis Hobba  35:48  
a strategy, right? Like it was like Joby ocupado said, and he talked about chicken feed, like giving journalists chicken feed to make sure that something to nibble on. There's just like Trump was just like, fucking flog raw, like,

Dan Ilic  35:59  
down the throat of a ghost. There was a lot of folks that suggested that at one particular joke, one bit of satire actually turned Trump into somebody who wanted to run for president. That joke came from Barack Obama in the White House Correspondents Dinner. Let's have a look at that joke and see if you think oh, here we go. Here it is.

Unknown Speaker  36:19  
Donald Trump looks young tonight. Now I know that he's taken some flak lately, but no one is happier. No one is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest to them than Donald. And that's because he can finally get back to focusing on the issues that matter. Like did we fake the moon landing? What really happened in Roswell? And where are Biggie and Tupac? All kidding aside, obviously we all know about your credentials and breadth of experience. For example, seriously, just recently, in an episode of Celebrity Apprentice at the steakhouse, the men's cooking team did not impress the judges from Omaha Steaks. And there was a lot of blame to go around. But you Mr. Trump recognized that the real problem was a lack of leadership. And so ultimately, you didn't blame Little John or meatloaf.

Unknown Speaker  37:50  
You fired Gary Busey. And these are the kinds of decisions that will keep me up at night

Dan Ilic  38:03  
so angry so that was that was the joke. That was the joke that people said that was the joke that turd Trump to a guy that wanted to run for president and ruin America.

Jan Fran  38:13  
That is so hard to hear. If you watch the roast of donald trump, which I can't remember what year it happened in not too far from when he ran or decided to run for president. There's all these comedians that are like, Haha, you think you're gonna become the president? illusion or, and watching it now in retrospect, you're like, What the fuck are you clowns doing?

Ben Jenkins  38:34  
He was like, the complete opposite of who he was in every single way. It's quite an inspiring story. said he couldn't do it.

Jan Fran  38:43  
That's kind of the problem is that you actually sort of end up exalting the man while what you're trying to do is you know, hold power to account but you make him so much more powerful than if you just said nothing

Ben Jenkins  38:54  
we didn't want to have happen. It is

Lewis Hobba  38:57  
truly impressive that for once a really rich guy managed to become president. A lot of stores real sand look

Dan Ilic  39:05  
terrible. I'm gonna share a sketch that I dislike. I made it in 2016 before Trump was became president, and I just thought, Oh, this is a hilarious hypothetical. What if Trump did become president, and maybe this could be his White House briefing room?

You know what, when President Trump says he's gonna blow up Mars, he's just joking. He's more likely to blow with Venus since that's where women are from incredibly vicious rumors about a sex tape between the First Lady Melania Trump and President Trump in the Lincoln Bedroom. I can assure you that that tape exists, and it will be available for 699. Thank you for your question. The question was, Is it true that it is legal now to ask questions at press conferences? Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  39:58  
You're going to jail. If

Dan Ilic  40:02  
the President will not stand by while being called a bully and a misogynist, in fact, he called the Prime Minister of England just this morning and told her to quote, watch her pretty little mouth. There you go. How did you get in? Steve? Get him out. MSNBC is in here again. All right. Really? Yeah, that was my

Lewis Hobba  40:27  
that was not that far off. It was a blow up Mars, but he did invent a Space Force. There was like the misogyny everywhere he did banned people from the press room. That was annoyingly prophetic.

Ben Jenkins  40:41  
Because Sandra Ilitch over here. Yeah.

Dan Ilic  40:44  
But oh, yeah, my I guess my point is like, Oh, well, I made that thinking that was hyperbole, but it obviously just wasn't it was just not for course, first year. Yeah. Next up, please get up for Kathy Wilcox.

Cathy Wilcox  41:06  
Hi, thank you. I'm a little unrehearsed because I'm just waiting for that muse to strike me. And I'll tell you what's happening. As soon as I see the pictures, rather than then put out an argument for whether satire is more powerful than journalism because I kind of exist somewhere on the line between those things, I suppose. Somewhere I have, I have a you know, an ID card that actually calls me a journalist. So maybe, and the workplace, they're called journalists. But, but as a satirist, and a cartoonist, obviously, it's a very dangerous job. And I want to, you know, give you an idea of some of the dangers. I mean, I'm quite apart from getting assassinated, or getting arrested and being, you know, like imprisoned and things like that by regimes like totalitarian regimes and things like that. You know, obviously, that you all know about that. That's truly dangerous. So all I can talk about is the is the thin end of that wedge, you know, the little things that the sorts of dangers that I live in my day to. Day, but you know, she kind of deserved it, because

Ben Jenkins  42:27  
I haven't I have a little drawing that you did for me when my wife was pregnant. Her pregnant with Moses, and I'm there too, and he got shot that might.

Unknown Speaker  42:41  
So I want to

Jan Fran  42:43  
meet him in the car park.

Cathy Wilcox  42:46  
Okay, well, I'm really glad that Ben has introduced the idea of me getting into the room. So we everything that happens after after now is kind of relief anyway. So um, but first of all, the thing is that, that it can be surprising because you're working, especially these days, on your own, from your own house, in your own room, and not actually even in a newsroom, and never even meeting politicians and never going to Canberra and I'm not an insider. And I'm not part of a press gallery. And I've always kind of assume because I'm not one of those sort of upfront out there, cartoonists that I'm not buddies with the politicians and I, and I kind of tell myself that they don't see what I do. So it doesn't matter what I do. The first cartoon Dan, if you'd like to bring up is, is what do we got? We've got the standard rigor. So he when Scott Morrison wanted to know who knew what about the rape of or alleged sorry, rape of Brittany Higgins in in, in an office in Parliament? Phil, I'm relying on you to get to the bottom of who in my office knew what when and then submit your findings in the usual way. And you just may see that there's a super shredder in the background there. The fill in question is one filled Gretchen's a very useful man to the Prime Minister and has been for several years he's been his, you know, his his advisor and to ice and, and he's head of Prime Minister and Cabinet and so forth. So he is the one who, you know, you heard was was tasked with doing this investigation. And here's the one you found out about some weeks, months later. In fact, he had he that he had suspended that investigation, but that nobody had really heard about it. But the weird weird thing about doing this cartoon was that the day that was published I received a phone call. I picked it it's not a number I recognize Yeah. And they're on the phone is Hello Is that Kathy Wilcox? Yes, it is. Phil Gretchen's. I had filed it had been published.

Unknown Speaker  44:54  
Oh, yes, I say. He said I just want Want to let you know that?

Cathy Wilcox  45:03  
I don't normally wear a tie? You dreaming in the cartoon with a tie? Yes, I did. And I know I'm not quite known for not wearing a tie in the shredder.

Lewis Hobba  45:22  
I think we all agree. Everyone knows me, who's been really keeping this very important report. It is my classic open car.

Cathy Wilcox  45:32  
So I said, Well, now that you mentioned it, I have to admit that when I was looking up photo reference to draw you, I did see a number of features of you without a tie. Could I just I was in a hurry. And I just assumed that the ones with the ties were just further down. more full. Yeah. Yes. He said, Well, just don't do it again.

Ben Jenkins  45:57  
I seem everyone in this room is rocking his signature look.

Lewis Hobba  46:05  
There's a cost to Tiktok dance do the gate.

Dan Ilic  46:11  
He said don't do it again. Was it sinister? What was the tone?

Cathy Wilcox  46:14  
I said, I can assure you, I will be very careful not to make that mistake again. And he said, Okay. You know, I'm only joking.

Lewis Hobba  46:28  
The old I'm only joking. Oh

Unknown Speaker  46:30  
mankini the next time.

Cathy Wilcox  46:35  
That was only the first time I ever drew him. So it's so happened as as mentioned, some weeks later, there was some tooing and froing and Senate estimates and so forth. And there was further question about what the Prime Minister knew. And there was further revelation that this, this inquiry had been suspended. So the prime minister hadn't had an answer to it, because, in fact, it had been suspended. And he had been told about that either. So and there were various other things that he hadn't been told about. So if we could flip to the next cartoon, which I consider to be a very good opportunity for a cartoonist who's been possibly possibly joked about with by a very powerful man by the Prime Minister, Australia's most senior public servant, just so everybody knew who I was talking about. The Secretary of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet feel Gretchen's does not wear a tie. He told me himself after I wrongly drew him wearing a tie. Now I apologize for this cardinal sin of a cartoonist who just put themselves in a cartoon I've ever seen. You do that outside of there? I've done a few times, but it has to be for a very good reason. This was to

Lewis Hobba  47:44  
put himself in his car. Garfield

Cathy Wilcox  47:50  
recently, I thought, you know, this is an informative cartoon. Recently. The pm didn't know about Britney hignett, Higgins. Right, Mr. Gachon, suspending his inquiry into who knew what the PMO backgrounding journalist about Mr. Higgins partner, where is Phil Gachon tie

Dan Ilic  48:10  
is filled with the Thai

Cathy Wilcox  48:13  
Prime Minister with the Prime Minister around his eyes keeping short making sure that he does a follow up phone call. Did not my dad so wanted to know if he followed up on the phone as he calls you yet. I said I think he's smart enough to know not ever to call. So that was one thing to know that the person is is watching you sort of with that closeness that they can phone you on your mobile, I'd haven't given him my mobile phone. I don't know how he knows that.

Ben Jenkins  48:47  
Probably programmers who just tried to

Cathy Wilcox  48:50  
yes, those friends of mine. So. So that's one thing. And the other danger for people in this position is I would say litigious politicians. You might remember that time that the then Attorney General was in a spot of bother over over allegations of what he had done in his in his care for a youth. And when he came out and finally made this speech, and it was was much waited for moment and click click, click, click click all the all the cameras are going and he's there and the lights on him and lots of close ups to his face. And Is he is he acting? Is it for real is what's he saying here? So I felt like I wanted to act him there. So for me to have to disprove something that didn't happen. And I love that isn't that this is since since Trump to say didn't happen. It's just like, it's like a little kid gone. It's gone away.

Unknown Speaker  49:52  
Mummy gone away. It didn't happen. So something that didn't happen would be the end of the hall. Oh, Australia, thank you.

Cathy Wilcox  50:05  
Secret trials partners and appointments to trust integrity, body matters of rule of law, if you're really gonna go looking at it, and he goes, questions the rule of law. So, it has been observed that I am a frustrated actor when I put myself in my in my work. However, this had to get past the lawyers who occasionally are given, you know, to look at my cartoon by the by the editor that I submitted to, I have enormous free rein, I submit my cartoons, mostly I don't hear Boo from anybody about it, except maybe a thanks for sending it or something like that from the sub editor. But I don't have to run ideas past an editor, I don't have to, you know, submit five, five ideas to somebody to see if they're funny, I get to just do this stuff. And it's only when something's usually legally contentious, or in very poor taste, which of course, I would never do that, that they, you know, have to have made you question something. So this one got run past the lawyers. And in the old days, there was a lawyer at the Herald who you hoped that he was the guy who was on on the night when your cartoon got lowered, because it was very easy. And he went very wide margins and you know, he, he'd wave anything through these days, we have much more sort of nervous nervous lawyers, and they're shared by by both the Herald and the age, so you can't kind of go well, this one said it's okay. So to argue with that one, so I'm, there's only me now to argue for things with the lawyers. So I argued, that are what we know they're called they're called sways they point their complaint was valuable. I am suggesting I'm suggesting, especially in in frame six, hear that he is insincere, that he is just acting. So I've made it look theatrical

Dan Ilic  51:58  
to the people that podcast, it's a picture of

Cathy Wilcox  52:02  
bowing is doing a very grandiose Bow. Thank you thanking people for hearing him out there. And the the lawyers said, No, that is suggesting that he's, he's not sincere. Wow. Anyway, I went away. And first of all, I said, I argued, and I said, in my cartoon, I'm not saying any more than our own journalists have written their own opinion writers and so forth. They have all, you know, question this thing. And also, I'm just using his words. And I'm, you know, and so that little bow is the only kind of affectation in a way, but I said, But if I'll take the bow, would you be okay. So, here is the cartoon all the time, except framsticks has been changed. And they went, Okay, we're okay with that. And I thought, wow, I want against the lawyer.

Dan Ilic  52:59  
This time, he's got his hand on his heart.

Cathy Wilcox  53:03  
There, but that is some but it's not so much that I had that I want against the lawyers. It's that that the lawyers or the newspapers, the mastheads was so intimidated by this, this guy who has proven himself to be litigious and was in the process of suing the ABC and all that sort of thing. But they were twice shy about doing anything that might draw your attention and and you know, cause him to come up anyway, nobody, nobody got hurt. Nobody got sued. And I didn't hear any more about that. But

Unknown Speaker  53:37  
he got sued in the air No, I

Ben Jenkins  53:42  
honestly, if you fall over and chip in your driveway, see the ABC.

Cathy Wilcox  53:48  
So that's those are a couple of the dangers, therefore being watched, being potentially sued by litigious politicians now, what else do we got? Oh, yes, doing things about Russia, or Israel, or a few. There are a few like really, really delicate pieces of ground, but I have come to understand the the reaction I will get when I do something, do a cartoon that is about one of those difficult areas. And on this case, this was like, you know, like, I could have timed my watch, set my watch by this one, because I know now from years of occasionally doing things about Russia and Putin and all the rest of it that you don't get told, Oh, you're an ignorant auto, you know, you shouldn't do that. You're wrong. You got you get told. Oh, I'm really sorry that you're so ignorant, how embarrassed you should really educate yourself. You must feel so embarrassed to be so stupid. One low IQ who is normally so smart. So they do this little manipulating thing where you feel like an idiot. So you have been successfully propagandized. Cathy, there is another study scientists Don't worry that you need to make yourself aware of. Well, that was only a couple of days what was it? The third I think it was the next day that the same same day, the next day that the invasion happened. Yeah. So So you know, I think he was wrong and also I know now not to worry about that. That sort of intimidating response because it is very formulaic and and it comes at you from a usually a fairly organized lobby although that might. The final danger is whimsy. Do not engage in whimsy at all costs, not on Twitter, not when you're expected to be a political commentator ever stop to think how amazing birds nests are. I mean, if we tried to do that we'd never get it through counsel for a start. And the structural engineering so potentially three to four full grown magpies in twigs and fluff and bird poo cantilevered. Sure. That's the that's the submission to council. Yes, I do. Actually. I think every person who experiences homelessness thinks about the natural rights to make a safe mess anywhere on earth without it being illegal or the land owned by someone else missed and peeps have no idea about the trauma of being denied the right to exist. I was schooled I can tell my fuck you.

Jan Fran  56:20  
Do you know what the red flag in this tweet though? Is Kathy? The Globe? Anyone that's got emojis? No. You're gonna get

Lewis Hobba  56:36  
everything about everyone getting abused on Twitter is that there's so many. We simply don't have time to go through all of them. Is that because I work at Triple J, we've got a text line. And so like before, everyone has been like, I'm getting a bit abused. I'm like, welcome to the fucking

Unknown Speaker  56:55  
Welcome.

Lewis Hobba  56:57  
Welcome to the nightmare. Welcome to the seventh circle.

Jan Fran  57:01  
Can I tell you the most delightful time that I got abused on social media after posting one of my videos to Facebook, which is really just the you know, Boomer brain graveyard at this point, but I posted it and you know, a couple of people commented whatever. And then someone underneath the video, commented, go, we'll wait. You're on my page. I clicked on the profile. And it was an older woman from Tasmania that really enjoyed bird watching.

Unknown Speaker  57:39  
He got to watch with a bird watching he

Jan Fran  57:42  
posted. And I thought I had to do this and the name was Mary. And I said, Hi, Mary. You're on my page. I can't go away. I'd like to you can. And then I left it and close the laptop. That was the tone that I had intended it in my mind. And I came back maybe an hour and a half later. And there was all of this vitriol against for Mary. I did it. And I started to pile on. Unwittingly, unknowingly completely unintentionally. Call it off. I deleted the whole thing. And I was close to deleting my entire Facebook.

Dan Ilic  58:32  
You're a better actor and governance professional than Mark Zuckerberg.

Jan Fran  58:38  
Yes, I should run Facebook.

Cathy Wilcox  58:41  
Yep, no, I've done that too. I've deleted a tweet that has provoked a polemical even though it didn't wasn't meant to because yeah, likewise, it's

Dan Ilic  58:51  
very the creators on stage not created anything that's dangerous like Kathy.

Ben Jenkins  58:57  
I mean, I haven't done any damage to pull Mary if I get death threats, sometimes fun. It's just it's from my son used to give him apricot and lead each week until six. But it's like, I don't know. I think it's a guy. It's it's really different because I'm just like, your domain like, but there was one tweet I did, which was like, sometimes I'm just like, I'm having to go today. I'm just gonna see how many people I can piss off. And it was like right after Boris Johnson had gotten COVID. And a lot of people were like, good. And then there's all this like weird hand wringing was coming up. Well, you might not agree with him, but he's a human being. And then and then there was like, That couple of days later, Kim Jong Un was reported as ill. And I just like, I just Yeah, yeah, I just tweeted like, how have you feel about his politics? He's a human being I think we can all like, come together on metal. And it was like it was just it was deliberately just, it was just sort of on the edge of sincere that people would think I was.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:10  
You tweet all the time.

Ben Jenkins  1:00:13  
This didn't get me death threats. But this made Twitter unusable for me for about for about a day was during the Oscars a couple of years ago, I tweeted, this is all well and good. But wouldn't it be wonderful if we gave awards to books?

Unknown Speaker  1:00:27  
And a mixture of

Ben Jenkins  1:00:30  
people being like, Oh, actually, I appreciate the sentiment, but we do give books. Because I was born I just be like, No, we don't be like No, we, we do the Nobel prize goes to literature. And I'm like, that's for science. It's so sad. I have a full time job and a child. That won't give me death threats. And I told my wife because she was like, I saw this thing. Why did you do that? And I was like, oh, no, honey, but it's funny, because look at these people who say they're gonna kill me. She was like, What the fuck? And I was like, oh, that's online,

Jan Fran  1:01:03  
getting a slew of like, when I did the first season and crushing everything last year. It's like, I don't really check a lot of my social media. But then, you know, once you start getting notifications from people with wraparound sunglasses, and Australian flag profiles in in their Twitter, you're like, oh, something's gone horribly wrong. And it turns out that there was a YouTuber that made a video about me, and you know, it was like, ABC leftist journaux you know, like sucking on the government T yada, yada, yada. And I kind of just I've watched the video just to make sure that there was nothing that was like, there was no call to violence or anything towards me. But I got a an unrelenting barrage on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, in my email, I'm not sure how they found my email, but I started getting emails

Dan Ilic  1:01:53  
tweeted it when I started to directly talk to Jen.

Jan Fran  1:01:58  
That's how they got the email. And the thing is, it's like, there is nothing that the ABC can do. They were like, well, you could just block people.

Ben Jenkins  1:02:07  
I'm aware of the Navy. No, but

Jan Fran  1:02:11  
that's I mean, that's kind of like partly the problem of

Dan Ilic  1:02:13  
did you feel your life was at risk at any point? I didn't feel like

Jan Fran  1:02:17  
my life was at risk really. But I did feel like most of the people online when you know you say something that they don't particularly like and something like this happens they'll vent online and then they'll fuck off but sometimes I think to myself What if there is just that one really hectic person who doesn't fuck off and for whatever reason has a been his bonnet about you and this thing that you said and did and then finds your address online and then shows up like that is not a ridiculous thing to think so that's that's the reality and the fact is that it doesn't matter whether you're a freelancer, whether you work for a legacy media organization, there's nothing that can be done here. I've emailed YouTube and they've come back and Ben been like, Oh, and this was for a different matter with a completely different person they like you know, nothing broke our rules of engagement or whatever it is, so there's really nothing that we can do. Well, Jen,

Dan Ilic  1:03:08  
we're going to surprise you side stage we have the only time I've ever done anything kind of remotely sort of dangerous through comedy was I got I got to pull it from Manus Island making where the bloody hell are you sketch with refugees on Manus Island. Just pay for that now and we'll move on

Unknown Speaker  1:03:33  
you stopped the boat. You put us in a prison in a tropical island. In 60s, I had a lot of time thing. Mostly about my mother's passport.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:44  
If you want to go by boat.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:48  
By plane

Unknown Speaker  1:03:51  
we learned some Australia and culture. This guy this shit didn't go after six years we've been waiting to be processed Prime Minister's combo so.

Dan Ilic  1:04:22  
Everyone, please give epogen friends.

Jan Fran  1:04:27  
Thanks so much. I mean, turns out that I'm probably going to build a little bit on Ben's entire premise that satire does not change hearts and minds and that it does not necessarily hold the powerful to account but I'm gonna go a little bit further. And you know, write a little bit of a love letter, a manifesto, perhaps to make people entitled journalists and comedians should maybe think about shutting the fuck up a little bit more. So sometimes people call me a journalist slash comedian, which I think is a nice way of them saying that I'm a bit shoot at both. That's okay. That's fine. It's you know, it's anytime anyone uses the slash that's kind of how you know, right? Like if you go to an Italian slash Chinese Oh, you're not getting either. You're getting dysentery but in this context, I think the slash is important right journalist slash comedian because it means that I have yielded both the pen and the joke. And I can tell you unequivocally right here, ladies and gentlemen, that when it comes to changing hearts and minds, and when it comes to making the world a better place, they are both garbage. They are utterly fucking useless. No one's life has been improved by a strongly worded op ed. No one wakes up in the cancer ward and says, Oh my God, you know what changed my mind. Do you know what cured me? Jen friends Walkley award winning opinion, the Frank Winnie 91. Love the guy in the cancer ward. I mean, no one wants to be held hostage only for the cops to show up, surround the building and pull out their pawns. There's times there's you know, we can see here and we can talk about whether the joke is mightier than the pen whether the pen is mightier than the joke. You know what he's mightier than both of them subsonic missiles. And I can tell you that nobody is worried about Vladimir Putin dropping by arrow on cares. This is truly the real world. And I think that terrible things happen in the real world. You know, the planet is heating up US inflation is the highest that it has been in 40 years. Clive Palmer survived COVID Even though he is the nation's underlying health condition. If we cannot tackle all these things purely with jokes and pens, unless we use the pen of some sort of stabbing, an ambush Clive as he's burning an effigy of Mark McGowan and a Red Rooster carpark, as he tends to do. So I would go so far as to say that we are perhaps bear with me wielding the pen, and the joke a little bit too much journalists, and comedians. And we have this idea that it's there to hold people to account. And it's there to change hearts and minds. And I constantly hear this refrain that sunlight is the best disinfectant. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, right? It's a bit of a sort of a cliche thing to say about sunlight. So I'll just throw another cliche thing to say about sunlight, which is that it can also make things grow. And so when we think about what we're actually putting in the sun, over and over and over again, if your intention is to disinfect it, and it ends up growing, while suddenly you have quite a big problem on your hands, everyone has a big problem on their hands. And the other thing that I would caution is that when we talk about yielding jokes or yielding pins, he turns out anyone can actually yield a joke or a pen. Everyone has an opinion now, and some of them are award winning. Actually can't secure just because it hasn't happened yet. But I truly think that everyone being or having the access to be an armchair expert, is one of the most terrible things to happen to society currently, jokes and pens are meant to help us understand the world around us right so that we can make it better but the world is very complicated and nuanced on the internet is like a pregnant ladies vagina. No matter how hard you try, you just can't see it

Dan Ilic  1:09:19  
really wondering when credible to the Patreon members Jan's trying to look at it.

Jan Fran  1:09:32  
They're there, it's just obscured. So there should be some ground rules perhaps in place to determine who should wield the pen and who should wield the joke and under what circumstances if you are someone who wants to talk about ivermectin, but you can't spell ivermectin you don't get to talk about ivermectin, no pan for you. Oh, no horses either. I say that it's just one suggestion this is totally off the top of my head. I've thought about it fleetingly. But I think it's a good idea. I think that we writers and journalists and jokesters, I think that we should take a backseat in this moment to a group of people who are currently at their most fuckable. Scientists. This is their window. We need science now, in my view, more than ever, especially because we have a prime minister, who as we know, loves to take policy advice from God. And from God's one true son, Lachlan. Science is what will change hearts and minds science is mightier than the pen is mightier than the joke. Art is what will change hearts and minds mightier than the pen mightier than the joke? Do you want to know what the highest form of knowledge is? It's empathy. I read that on the back of a tampon

imagine anymore. Imagine if we were obscuring all of these potential forms of knowledge, without jokes, and with articles, and with our opinions, and with our tweets, and with our commentary. What is it that we are doing to the world? It's true that, you know, you can say the joke is mightier than the pen. You can say the pen is mightier than the joke. It doesn't matter. There are things that are mightier than both of them, including hypersonic missiles. As it turns out

Unknown Speaker  1:11:59  
Louis harbor

Lewis Hobba  1:12:04  
we have a little bit long, I assume, because I really need to pay I don't know. That's that's pretty much how I can tell the running time of these things. So I'll I'll crack through it. But look, the reason I think, just to wrap it all up, that setters and look, I'll say setters and comedians, and I'm referring to us, and you might be like, I don't even think of myself as a satirist. I mostly ask people where they've been stuck on radio, you know, out there doing the good stuff. I'm not, I'm not John Oliver, I'm an idiot. So just accept that I'm going to use that term broadly. And let's rock let's move past it so we can all pay. But the reason I think that satirists are the new journalists is simple. We can't exist without journalists, like 100% of jokes written by political comedians get written because they read a story in the news and the news is written by journalists, like we're lazy. We're too lazy to do it. And to show how lazy we are. For the next little while. I'm just going to make the same point over and over again, using slightly different metaphors. satirise aren't disrupting journalism were leeching off it were a pilot fish attached to a shark, where the cackling hyenas picking up the bones of politicians left behind by lions. If journalists are a majestic giraffe, using its height to scan for danger way or a silly bird that lands on its head. Forced to look wherever the giraffe

is bull. Canadians are the last person in the human centipede. Just taking the research already digested and shut out by reporters and editors eating it up and then shooting it out again in a slightly different way. It's still shit. But our shit was shot by a human centipede. And that's gonna get clicks. Like journalists have to do a lot of stuff that is important and boring. Comedians want to do stuff that is frivolous and exciting. Like Can anyone here be bothered learning what an interest rate is? Like that? No, there's no such thing as a financial comedian. It would be cruel to teach us about money. Only for us to learn. We'll never get in. Like the grunt work of political journalism is getting things on the record like that's, that's the grunt stuff. That's the important stuff, like going to boring press conferences, making boring calls, getting people to say stuff, like in 2008 when a journalist got Scott Morrison on the record saying that he was in favor of a government supporting people buying houses with a housing equity scheme that was boring in 2008. And in 2017, when he said it again, and then he still supported the idea. It was boring then. But in 2022, when he attacks labor for the exact same idea, it suddenly become something, right? Something that gets the mouths of the little human centipede very excited. But good things take time, even hypocrisy, and time is something that journalists can afford to have. And look, I am not deifying journalists. They're normal people. And in fact, they're worse than normal people. Because their job is to be annoying, ideally, to people in power, that comedians or people pleasers. applause is our nourishment. Like, it's the base of our food pyramid. And so I don't think comedians are incapable of doing the work of journalists. But we're not financially motivated to piss people off like, we get paid by the ticket. So I think journalists have an employer and an employer who pays them more, the better they are at annoying people. It's the opposite of what comedians do. Like I would say the ABC has at times paid comedians to be annoying, and not in the way they pay me to be annoying, which is just by accident. But it's more of a sort of deliberate choice to pay comedians to be annoying on shows like Chase or or to nightly, which you talked about already. Very few people in comedy choose to make audiences happy by annoying powerful people on a freelance basis. It's just not a smart move. And so my point is really, that you you can't have political satire without journalists. But you can very easily have journalism, without satirists, because we're not going to do the research. And you know what? Sometimes you just need someone to look down the barrel of a camera and say Princess Diana is dead

and you need to notify that out with damn lady died.

That's some topical stuff

talk on us was run by comedians, it would be the comedy central roast, if 60 minutes was one run by comedians in a go for 50 minutes, and we charged for the fallout. If current affair was run by comedians, it'd be a bit better. Like comedians aren't useless. I mean, we're not as bad as opinion writers.

But mostly, we're just putting a shiny new package on an existing product and selling it as something new. And that is why we often end up selling it for free.

Dan Ilic  1:17:48  
Well, now comes the most important part of the evening, we get to decide whether jokes are more important than journalism.

Ben Jenkins  1:17:56  
This could really go either way. Really strong points.

Dan Ilic  1:18:01  
We're gonna tick a box here and send it off to the Governor General. So let's see if y'all want to, I don't know maybe want to Should we do a red text? Are you going to get a black text or sorry, sorry. All right. So let's raise your hand or actually because there's a podcast by round of applause, our jokes more important than journalism. You didn't and conversely, is journalism more important than joke's?

On the panel here, just raise your hands is jokes more important than gentlemen, if

Ben Jenkins  1:18:39  
I can flip it? Yes.

Cathy Wilcox  1:18:45  
One counter counter case, yeah. Okay. I don't know if we've got time for this just that my dad reckons, and he's a conservative old bloke. And he only gets the newspaper The Herald because I'm in and he says, if I stopped drawing for the Herald, he will cancel his subscription. That is how powerful the sad guy is

Unknown Speaker  1:19:07  
very specific. On what I'm hearing is

Dan Ilic  1:19:13  
nepotism rules over. So one more time jokes is jokes better than journalism? Is journalism better than jokes?

Unknown Speaker  1:19:26  
Journalism

Dan Ilic  1:19:27  
is far more powerful than journalism.

Unknown Speaker  1:19:32  
All right.

Dan Ilic  1:19:33  
Let's send this to the Governor General. Please. Sara will you please post this immediately to David Hurley?

Unknown Speaker  1:19:44  
Please give it up. Thank you, Sarah. You going to take this as quick as you can? Take it as quick as you can to the Governor General Sarah I'm Dan Jenkins got the Blue Dogs dealing with Josiah. take you to the Judas Nielsen Institute for having a drug mods and our Patreon supporters. Until next

Unknown Speaker  1:20:24  
time

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TRANSCRIPT:

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
This episode is supported by the jib foundation. final results are still being tallied. But one thing is crystal clear the 2022 election has delivered a seismic shift in Australia's political landscape. It's a difficult night for Liberals and Nationals around the country is nights like this always.

Unknown Speaker  0:22  
Tonight, the Australian

Robbie McGreggor  0:24  
people have voted for change.

Unknown Speaker  0:29  
Your Excellency, and present the honorable Anthony Albanese is to be sworn in to the office of Prime Minister

Unknown Speaker  0:36  
is Up up and away for Anthony Albanese for his de vous on the international stage at the quad Leaders Summit in Japan.

Robbie McGreggor  0:43  
Jiang Fran has issues breaking down the election one issue at a time brought to you by rational fear.

Jan Fran  0:55  
Oh my goodness. Welcome to the final episode of Jan Fran has issues we did it Daniel.

Dan Ilic  1:05  
Jeanette, I'm so excited. I can't believe it. Have you have you sufficiently gotten through all of the issues now that we are out the back end of the election? I have any issues left?

Jan Fran  1:15  
Oh, my I am completely still riddled with issues, both political and personal. Remember, at the very first episode, you said that you could act as my shrink. It begins now. My do

Dan Ilic  1:28  
all right. As long as I don't have to act as your midwife, because that's what I'm most stressed about. Because you're about to I'm pretty impressed. You managed to hold your little your little daughter in there for her funeral for a few more weeks while we got this this this podcast out my Little

Jan Fran  1:46  
Bear Bear. Yeah, no. still firmly inside. I've given it permission to exit now that this podcast is done and now that the election is done. So we'll see how

Dan Ilic  1:57  
excellent very diligent, Jan, very diligent I am be, you're gonna be a great mother vanquishing discipline like that.

Jan Fran  2:05  
So look, I'm not going to go over the election results too much, because it's been about a week since Saturday happened. But my God, it was massive. So many big wins so many huge surprises. We're gonna get to the two that we thought were particularly interesting in just a second. But before we go to those two big issues, let's discuss, let's, let's do the thing that we love to do over the course of the week and take issue with something. What are you taking issue with this week, Daniel, our final week of the party.

Dan Ilic  2:34  
I'm taking issue with this incredible Op Ed from Chris Yeoman in the Sydney Morning Herald and the headline made me burst out laughing in the cafe as I turned the paper, the headline was the agonizing birth of a new era.

As, as someone who doesn't shy away from partisan chips, Chris, Yeoman definitely would have had to have an agonizing birth of this new era, because somehow he managed to keep his eyes closed as to what the independents were doing in the world out there. So it made me laugh. It made me laugh out so loud, laugh out loud, so much. There was a guy to two tables next to me, he turned to me and said, Oh, sounds like a good one. I said, it is. It's really funny.

Jan Fran  3:17  
So what was what was the what was the theme? What was the Op Ed about?

Dan Ilic  3:21  
The Op Ed was essentially that both major parties are bound to go through enormous soul searching and which is absolutely true. But he doesn't actually admit that climate change was the reason why these independents exist. He said this was clearly a referendum on the likeability of Scott Morrison. That was, that was what he pinned the whole election on. And like when you see a half a party disintegrate because they want climate action. Yeah, didn't even bother to acknowledge that this is a guy who can't acknowledge climate change is happening. This is a guy who can't acknowledge that, that renewable energy actually works. So this made me laugh out. So

Jan Fran  3:57  
that's so weird, because it is. I mean, obviously, it was a major part of why the election went the way that it went. But I like to call this crossbench the fuck around and find out crossbench. Around for 15 years on climate policy, and give us nothing but climate inaction, you're gonna find out that there's only a certain degree to which you can push the Australian people before they push back. And this was it. Yeah.

Dan Ilic  4:20  
And it's something we will we'll talk with our guests about, but it certainly feels like the adults are in the room, you know? Yeah. Finally, the mums have come to Parliament to sort us out.

Jan Fran  4:29  
Yeah, my, the thing that I would like to take issue with this week is, is and look, I'm just going to preface that far be it for me to defend Peter Dutton, which I don't usually do anyone who knows me knows that. However, on this occasion, I'm just I'm going to choose to do that because of some commentary made by one. Tanya Plibersek. about the way that Peter Dutton looks. Take a listen. This is what she said on radio this week.

Unknown Speaker  4:55  
Well, I think there'll be a lot of children who've watched a lot of Harry Potter films who will be very frightened of what they're seeing on TV at night. That's for sure. Well, what you're saying he looks strange, it looks odd. unsane looks a bit like Voldemort.

Jan Fran  5:13  
Ah, that wasn't nice.

Dan Ilic  5:16  
That smacks of someone who's just having too much adrenaline through their system.

Jan Fran  5:21  
Yeah, I heard that. And I was like, Oh God, I kind of did a bit of an Iraq because I'm like, you know, I just I think let's just let's, let's stay away from the way that people look, because that's a downhill trajectory for me. If you start pointing the finger at who's fog? And who's not in Parliament? Yeah. You know,

Dan Ilic  5:40  
yeah, there'll be like, there will be no thing. Like if we've only got 10 fingers each as a species. It's very difficult. The other thing is

Jan Fran  5:48  
I kind of I reckon she knew exactly what she was doing. Cuz she can't, she said that and like anyone who hears that he's gonna go, oh, yeah, I guess he kind of does look a bit more, you know what I mean? And that's gonna,

Dan Ilic  6:01  
I mean, it's also cheap. It's also basically riffing on a meme that's been going around the internet, ever since Peter Dutton has been in office. Really, what you want to say is he's going to move from a regular potato to becoming a sweet potato. That's what you want to be. That's the transition we're looking for. That's what we need to use. today. I was really happy myself when I was talking about that.

Jan Fran  6:24  
Maybe, maybe, maybe it's coming. Maybe it's coming. She did apologize. I should preface that she apologized unreservedly, but you know, damage is done.

Dan Ilic  6:31  
And also you shouldn't be using copyrighted characters. Because otherwise, you know, JK Rowling is going to come down there and sue you.

Robbie McGreggor  6:40  
Jam has issues. So,

Jan Fran  6:44  
so many interesting things happened on Saturday, I'm trying to work out what it is that I particularly want to talk about on the potty. And we've decided that there were two sort of things that really stood out for us, Dan one, the so called women's vote, not just the vote, but women running as candidates.

Dan Ilic  7:01  
Yeah, women women can completely deserting the major parties, women running as independents. This is a huge, huge moment for women in Australia.

Jan Fran  7:11  
I think this parliament will have a record number of women representing Australia, both in the Lower House and in the upper house. That is extraordinary.

Dan Ilic  7:23  
Yeah. And in the upper house, I think it's more and more women than men in the upper house as well.

Jan Fran  7:26  
Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that we wanted to talk about was I know everyone's talking about the TEALS like tail tail is the color of the election, but there is another color. There is another wave on the horizon, my friend. What were we

Dan Ilic  7:39  
talking orange? Okay, we're not talking aubergine aubergine. We're not talking sunny side up, which is the color of my kitchen.

Jan Fran  7:50  
My dude we're talking green, the green have had a record victory. This election. They are on track. They haven't picked it up yet. We're recording on Friday. So with that may have happened. But they've got three seats in the lower house. They may pick up another one which will give them four seats in the lower house.

Dan Ilic  8:09  
Yeah. And what's what's extraordinary is that the seats they picked up are in Queensland, Queensland. That is that is epic. That is the epic story of, of this election that climate bears is climate as the big story. Women is the big story. And independents are the big story. It's a huge, huge, huge election.

Jan Fran  8:28  
Did you ever think that Queensland was going to be greens heartland? Because if they did three seats, which they picked up Ryan and Griffis and they're vying for Brisbane, it's, it's great heartland.

Dan Ilic  8:41  
Yeah. In Brisbane goes, I'm moving to Brisbane baby. They're my people.

Jan Fran  8:47  
So coming up on today's show two wonderful guests for you. We're going to start with the legend herself. What a way to finish the final episode of the podcast. Grace Haim is joining us talking about the women's vote. And whether her side I brought down the pm she's a lot more humble than I am. I'm giving her full credit. And then we're going to talk to Elizabeth Watson Brown who won the seat of Ryan in Brisbane. She's a Greens candidate. She's heading to Canberra baby.

Dan Ilic  9:17  
Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah.

Jan Fran  9:20  
Well, without any further ado, why don't we bring on our first guest Grace time. Welcome to the podcast Grace team. What a pleasure to have you on the last episode of Jan Fran has issues after this hectic election. What did you think of the result? Well,

Grace Tame  9:39  
I thought it was pretty awesome.

Dan Ilic  9:44  
Can I share the message that I sent you and your your reply to Jen? Yeah. Oh, gosh. As the results are coming in, I said amazing. Fuckit eBuy. And then Grace team replied, who's frowning now ball have

Grace Tame  10:12  
anything to do with the agenda at all?

Dan Ilic  10:14  
So how did you feel like race talk? Talk us through your night? What were you doing tennis a picture of how you were taking it all in?

Grace Tame  10:20  
Well, Max and I had snuggled ourselves up on the couch. One of the things that was really empowering and hopeful to me as someone who's been a lifetime swing voter, and someone who votes with their conscience, and isn't, isn't, despite what the media and a lot of you know, critics of mine say, you know, is that it isn't about party politics, like one of the things that's really hopeful to me is that we've got this, like, different sort of mood, we're at least moving towards a slightly different structure, as opposed to something that's that's purely about this two party system.

Dan Ilic  10:57  
What excites you about that new structure? And and how you could see politics rollout in Australia?

Grace Tame  11:02  
Obviously, we've had independence before Simon Holmes, a court who is sort of saying on an episode of q&a, I think it was last year, you know, he was saying, oh, like, How good would be if we just had two or three, you know, climate, climate focused independents, and, you know, we've got 11. And, you know, the greens had their best result yet, we've got the, the most indigenous representation that we've ever had, we've also a 57%, female majority in the Senate. Now, certainly, we've got a long way to go, in terms of actually reflecting the truth of the diversity of our nation and of the community that elected these representatives. But we're getting a little bit closer to reflecting the diversity and inclusion, the values of the community that elected our leaders and, and sort of breaking down these myths of what what really governance and leadership should be. And I think, because, you know, a lot of the things that we're conditioned to believe about society, and what really we need in order to create order, and structure and 40. A lot of those things are often actually just constructs that are, you know, manmade

Jan Fran  12:18  
ideas. Yeah, they're not inherent, they're not

Grace Tame  12:20  
inherent. And, you know, there there are some members of the commentariat, perhaps, at the older, white male end of the spectrum, who will tell you, you know, oh, this is not gonna work is just gonna be a scammer. Wow. And, you know, well, let's, that remains to be seen. Let's see how it goes. But I actually think that, you know, and labor still has the majority, like crying out loud. And let's just, let's obviously see how it goes. And yeah, there have been a lot of ambitious commitments made early on, you know, that Uluru statement and the entirety the respective work report and climate action and other such, you know, pretty ambitious moves in a pretty tenuous time globally, as well as nationally. So it'll be interesting to see what actually comes of a lot of those promises. But certainly, I think that, like, let's give it a crack. And I'd say what happens,

Jan Fran  13:22  
like lots of people are talking about, you know, the so called women's vote, which, like, women are not a homogenous entity, so to speak. But there were, you know, a record number of women elected into Parliament this week. So both women running and also women voting, we don't exactly have the stats broken down by gender for this election. But we know that like, over a period of three decades, you know, women have kind of been slowly abandoning like the coalition and the Liberal Party. And since the last election, that sort of ramped up a lot. Did you kind of expect the Liberals to get such a battering from women this election? And do you reckon that you had anything to do with that? Did your side i bring down the PM, that's what I'm trying to ask.

Grace Tame  14:11  
And I think, I mean, there are lots of circuit breaker moments. You know, and I think it's, it's all it's all part of it, but I mean, to you know, it was it was everybody who got out there and did, you know made their contribution? You think about what, what what it took to to take away that government, it was really just everyone getting out and writing numbers on a piece of paper. But that's what was that's what it was, and like yeah, aside, I, but that was a circuit breaker moment. It was, it was showing people that, you know, like you can actually frown in the face of the prime minister, and nothing will happen. The world won't end. You know, I won't blow up. For me as someone who is autistic and it's actually really struggled to Do you know like, like, I can't, if something is inauthentic, I really struggle to fake it around that I like see straight through it. So you know, it's very hard, you know, when, again, when the media goes, oh, you know, like, Oh, you're so lucky and endless, like, Yes, I am, in a lot of ways I've had a good life. But also, like, there's a lot that there's a lot more layers to that. But one of the things sort of, like, the point that I'm trying to make is, I suppose that what I saw throughout my life, and the way that I lived it is that one of the things that enables these cultures to persist is that people really just allow a lot of stuff that, you know, it could all it all it sometimes takes is just to standing up and making one small gesture. Yeah. And there's this, I talked about it in the last few days, because one of the things that really contributed to this election was a huge part of it, is this crisis of narrative manipulation in Australia that permeates the media landscape, you know, where it's just subtle things, but really, the cumulative effect of them is, is like grooming. And it's like falsehoods, like lies are being sold to us as facts, you know, and like, you know, disinformation is being masked, disguised as controversy softened, as you know, you know, normalize them like, and that's how this hate campaign that was, you know, that was driven by the Liberal Party was really allowed to run.

Jan Fran  16:44  
Yeah, yeah. But it's like what you were sort of talking about, though, Grace. It's like, the language is just couch, it's softened. You know, it's like, it's not like, Oh, I'm definitely saying that this happened. I'm just bringing up a question. And it's couched in like asking questions, or, as you say, controversy, which has the same kind of impact.

Dan Ilic  17:04  
And I feel like there's previous government was so good at wearing down the media as well, actually bullying the media to a point where they tried to get narrative their own way through sheer force, through the AFP raids on news.com and ABC and things like that, as well as just constantly bullying the media into submission around things like climate and stuff like that as well. Like, if this was a completely toxic government that totally disassembled the Fourth Estate, soften the fourth estate. Well, you wonder,

Grace Tame  17:36  
you wonder about in the you know, because, you know, I don't know if you've read what Malcolm Turnbull had written about his, his experience of or his insights into the relationship that Donald Trump had with Rupert Murdoch, and how deferential Donald Trump was to Rupert Murdoch. And you wonder it so you wonder about, who was deferential to, to whom, in the case of, you know, the Liberal government, to the priests, like the previous government here, you know, you wonder who differs to whom?

Dan Ilic  18:15  
Yeah, I mean, even going right back to when Scott Morrison was immigration minister, the, like, the banning of reporting of boat arrivals, like the banning of reporting, like

Jan Fran  18:26  
Yeah, it was just it was it was sold as suddenly we heard the phrase on water matters, and we don't talk about on water matters. But of course, on water matters was just a phrase that was made up by Scott Morrison to mean something, when in fact, it means nothing. It just is a way of saying we can't we're not going to be talking about boats coming here. Because,

Grace Tame  18:46  
like the gas, the gas lit recovery, what does that even mean?

Jan Fran  18:51  
Yeah, I mean, do you think things will? Or do you? Well, I'll just ask you the question more generally, like what do you hope will be different under elbow?

Grace Tame  19:00  
I mean, I just hope there's going to, I hope there's going to be more transparency, which I really do think we're already seeing, you know, if it's just the same, you bet you bet your ass I'll be just

Jan Fran  19:12  
Oh, I saw your tweet about elbow when he spoke to Alan Jones. Oh, I saw that.

Grace Tame  19:17  
Yeah, that's just I mean, that's just silly. Like,

Dan Ilic  19:20  
Grace, can we get you a new title? Can we get you Australian bullshit detector of the year? Is that gonna

Jan Fran  19:24  
be kind of looking forward, like ideally, is there anything that you feel like the top three things that you would really like to see implemented by this Labor government?

Grace Tame  19:40  
I mean, climate action would benefit everyone. But I think also to like, you know, when we when we think about and I think about, like, I think about our first peoples I mean, we they've been here first. And I think that Albert got it right in that was the first thing that he addressed right off the block. You know, his order of priorities was pretty dead on.

Dan Ilic  20:05  
He could just walk right over to Malcolm Turnbull's house and say, Hey, Malcolm, can you open up your lower drawer? I just want to get that statement of the heart. From where you last put Yeah,

Grace Tame  20:14  
yeah, no, I think I think he got it right. And yeah, I mean those three things like equality for all and I mean, it's not just women. I think it's it's gender diverse voices. It's it's everyone. It's the LGBTQI community you know, and people of color it's, you know, it's the marginalized it's it's refugees, it's migrants. It's um, it's people with disability you know, visible disability. invisible disability. Oh,

Jan Fran  20:45  
hi. Oh, here we go. Hey, it's all of us.

Dan Ilic  20:52  
Sorry, this is Elizabeth Watson she's the grains new member

Elizabeth Watson Brown  20:58  
you're an absolute hero grace so nice. Sorry to buddy and but respect respect.

Grace Tame  21:05  
Thank you, Ron. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you absolutely wrapped and deservedly so. Yeah,

Elizabeth Watson Brown  21:10  
it's a little bit surreal.

Dan Ilic  21:11  
Grace, tell me one thing you're hopeful about heading into 2022 and 2023.

Grace Tame  21:35  
That Scott Morrison is not our prime minister. See the future so I don't I don't know. But I'm just hopeful. Like, you know, that it's not

Dan Ilic  21:52  
I've got some great news for you. He resigned a couple of days ago.

Grace Tame  21:55  
I love it. There's lots of things to be hopeful about.

Jan Fran  21:59  
I am I'm hopeful

Grace Tame  22:01  
I'm hopeful about this new again this new look of leadership that has you know, again, it's not it's it's we've got a long way to go but I think it's a good start

Dan Ilic  22:34  
 Grace thank you so much for joining us on Jan. Fran has issues

Elizabeth Watson Brown  22:39  
Okay. Elizabeth make you to Sorry, buddy. And I got to see I got to say goodbye to you. Yeah, and yeah. Legend.

Grace Tame  22:53  
Your legend too. And I hope good luck with everything and shake them up. That's what we're here for. You around and I'm so glad that you're going in there and Scott Morrison is not the person in charge because

Elizabeth Watson Brown  23:07  
I'm I'm rather glad about that too.

Grace Tame  23:11  
Like he lucky if it's something with my eyes that I do.

Jan Fran  23:16  
Well, hopefully you don't have to run into him both for your sake and seemingly his

Dan Ilic  23:22  
thanks to T.

Jan Fran  23:26  
Grace to former Australian of the Year she needs no introduction. The next person that we're about to speak to look she probably doesn't or she might need an introduction because she's going to federal parliament.

Dan Ilic  23:39  
Please I need to know all about this person. I am so keen to have a chat with Elizabeth Watson Brown. The new greens member for Ryan. By the way, Ryan is in Queensland.

Jan Fran  23:52  
Queensland please. Welcome Oh my God all the way from well, frankly, what is now the greenest state in Australia which I never thought I'd say.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  24:02  
Absolutely. That's where we're at baby. It's so good. It's so good. So

Dan Ilic  24:08  
Elizabeth, I love the butter advocate article that came out this week. They said a whole bunch of Queenslanders were looking down their nose at Melbourne because they only have one greens member that was perfect, wasn't

Jan Fran  24:17  
it? That was at the time of recording this Queensland has delivered to two federal green seats that are locked in for sure. And there's still a little bit of, you know, a toss up in the seat of Brisbane, which we're not sure how that's gonna swing. But we know that the Greens have picked up three seats in in in the House of Representatives, which is a historic Hi, how are you feeling?

Elizabeth Watson Brown  24:45  
Try not to swear.

Unknown Speaker  24:46  
I did no no. No

Elizabeth Watson Brown  24:49  
hair testing, you know, and It honestly feels like this is the beginning of real change. Real radical change, you know, and I said the other day, it's like the tectonic plates of politics. is in Australia, absolutely shifting. And it's, it's like it's all cracked open and people are going to get representation. And don't I feel much happier about Australia I feel happier about being a Queenslander. I feel happier about being Australian, because Australians want this to happen. And that was so clear. You know, we had a huge campaign. We, you know, year and a half, I haven't had a break. So I'm a little bit hysterical. But a year and a half of actually going out and knocking on 1000s and 1000s. We knock on half of the doors in the electorate. And we just knew that this is what people wanted to do. You know, like, we're, that's our massive poll. We're asking people what's concerning them and what they want. And we knew that this was what they want. So we could feel it shifting. You know, we could feel the power of that before election night.

Jan Fran  25:47  
For those listening who might not be across all of the seats. Ryan in Queensland, just very quickly, just tell us a little bit about that seat and how it delivered a greens victory because when people think of Queensland, they don't really think of green seats in the Federal House of Representatives. What is the electorate of Ryan?

Elizabeth Watson Brown  26:04  
Okay, it's in the, it's in Brisbane, western suburbs of Brisbane. Brisbane is all defined by the snaky river. So we're across, we share boundaries with the other two significant green, you know, green and potentially green seats in in Brisbane, and they are Griffith across the river from us. And we've got a boundary that we share with Brisbane, which is sort of on a knife edge at the moment. So we're sort of western suburbs, there's a lot of leafiness, you know, that's code for, but it's also

Jan Fran  26:31  
Norwich,

Elizabeth Watson Brown  26:34  
highly educated, I'm just not far from the University of Queensland at the moment, we've got sorrow and all that. But we've got real diversity, you know, so we were knocking on doors in the leafy suburbs, but also in the suburbs, which, where there are people struggling with potential homelessness, and all of the challenges, you know, that our great, you know, kind of platform of policies is there to address. And so it was just remarkable. And I spoke to many of these people myself, I've been Yeah, I've been absolutely pacing the streets up in the hills and the Dales of beautiful Ryan, which is kind of got a lot of machinists out on the edges of it. But it's also got out of suburbs in the suburbs, and it goes right into the kind of urban center of the city. So it's an incredible kind of cross section of Australia. So it's a really good test case, I reckon, for how we're going to progress politically in the future. And, you know, talking to people and just going to, and asking people at the doors. So how have you been feeling about things, you know, how are things for you, and if even if people were the sort of people who said, We hate politicians, it's all broken, hate you. As soon as you, you know, lend an empathetic ear and ask people how they've been going because people have been beaten around the head. You know, for years now. It's almost like an outpouring, it was almost like a kind of a counseling session. And so just that personal connection, and so many people said to us, this is the first time anyone has come to my door and asked me those questions. So you know, so there you go, that just shows the gaping, more, you know, the gap, that is other politics in Australia, this huge gap in terms of, and what what, what became really obvious to us real gap and sort of nothingness in terms of any policies that were being offered by the old parties. And we came to the election with this incredibly comprehensive, you know, plan about all of the interrelated things in people's lives, you know, not just climate change action, but all of the social stuff about health care, you know, about education about all the stuff that people actually need, you know, to give a good life, which is what we're living a good life. That's what we're about, and people, people responded to it. That's what people want. And it's just been so incredibly satisfying. And even. And I'll stop in a minute, I realized I shouldn't be taking 10 different sentences, but I am a little bit hysterical. And it's

Dan Ilic  28:59  
understandable, I'm sure your adrenaline levels.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  29:02  
I haven't had a chance to have a break. But you know, the very day after, and I found out about wedding on the actual night of the election. I'll tell you about that later. But day after just going to the local coffee shop, people coming up to me and say, Elizabeth, thank you. Thank you. We we have woken up today. Feeling hope. And we haven't felt that for a long time and feeling proud that we live here, you know, so that's been so that's why I've been to in tears.

Dan Ilic  29:33  
I can imagine in your electorate. It's quite a climate vulnerable electorate, isn't it? Did you have some? You had some major issues with the floods what was what kind of impact do you think that had on the electorate huge.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  29:43  
We could we could see the mood changing. We were getting out to lots of people were having good conversations, but this year, the anger started rising and people are actually feeling directly and really linking you know, that real experience of climate change the latest flood For that we've had literally in their backyards and in their own lives. And so we were always able, you know, whatever was troubling people and whatever struggles they had, including the floods, and we helped them through their people, we could draw a very direct line between their lived experience and what the greens are talking about and what the greens are offering. And the power of that has been absolutely huge.

Jan Fran  30:25  
How do you see the next few years panning out? Because this crossbench this is a this is a new crossbench in the history of Australia. I don't think we've had a crossbench like this. What do you reckon? How? You guys gonna negotiate? Are you going to get drunk on power?

Elizabeth Watson Brown  30:46  
Well, we think we hold the balance. Oh, my God, you know, the state of Brisbane, for example, my mate Steven nailbiting over there? Well, they're scrutineering. The count, you know, so it's gonna go either to Stephen green, or labor there. Remember,

Jan Fran  30:59  
we're recording this on Wednesday, by the time you might, you might be listening to it. Now, we may already know who has won the city of Brisbane, but it is Wednesday for all intents and purposes. Yes.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  31:07  
Yeah. And so that's, that's on a knife edge. So you know, whether we're in balance of power, which would be fabulous, or not, we're actually going to be just pushing for these things and negotiating for them inside the house. You know, kind of being part of those discussions about what the future should be. And I think it's pretty patently clear,

Dan Ilic  31:28  
Elizabeth, what are the lit? What are the leverage points? If you don't have? If labour doesn't have a minority government? What are the leverage points for you? Like what, what buttons can you push to get desired outcomes, stronger emissions? Things like that.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  31:44  
I think it's just always been there pushing, pushing, pushing the case, debating it. You know, being involved in obviously, you know, the legislative numbers should mention also, you know, we mentioned the Lower House seats, we've also got a new green senator in penny on and paid course, yeah. So we'll have balance of power in the Senate, you know, so that's a very powerful negotiating position, there'll be a huge block, including the tails of people who are concerned about exactly the same issue. So I think even if we're not imbalanced the power, we will be in a very good arguing kind of position, as well. Yeah.

Dan Ilic  32:18  
At least in question time, you can all say boo at the same time, and it will be a lot more effective.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  32:23  
Exactly. Yeah. And there'll be a lot of a lot of powerful women there, you know, isn't that interesting? It's going to have a completely different complexion from any parliament that we had have ever had before. And there's just something so sort of bolstering and empowering about that as well.

Dan Ilic  32:43  
What I find about particularly the to independence, these are women you don't want to mess with. I don't want to cross any of them.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  32:54  
Can I put my hand up for that, too? Yes, you totally. I am a woman who has worked for yonks, like 40 years. And I know you can tell by looking at me, I'm no spring chicken, in my profession, which is a very male dominated profession. So when people said to me, and that is my real name, not my election name. People said to me, when I when I was asked to run, I decided I would crumbs that's going to be pretty, you know, it's a pretty tough and rough game you hadn't, you're going to be okay. And I said, I've worked in architecture in the building industry for 40 years. I'm no shrinking violet. And it's not about me. So I think I can handle that stuff. Thanks. I think if you had a long, you know, professional career, and you've been around, you've done other stuff as well. You know, bring it on, I say, because again, it's not it's not about me, it's about what we've now got this most amazing kind of mandate to do. And that's what really touches me. And all these people have been coming up to me and bringing their friends up to me and saying, Thank you, thank you, we've woken up, we've now got hope. That is the most enormous privilege and responsibility as well. And I think about all of those people who came up to me on pre polyps said, Elizabeth, I've voted forever as a liberal or whatever. And this time I'm voting for you because this is what I've experienced in my life. They have never answered that for me. They're problematic. One woman came up and said, I voted liberal 25 for 25 years, Elizabeth, I'm voting for you this time because Scott Morrison is a fucking asshole. And, and there were a bunch of liberal ladies beside me handing out how to votes. And he said, I hope you heard that. You know,

Dan Ilic  34:37  
that was Elizabeth Watson. Talking about one of her constituents does not necessarily

Elizabeth Watson Brown  34:43  
represent my opinions because what someone shared with me

Jan Fran  34:48  
or anyone that you're hoping not to run into while you're in Canberra, anyone that you're hoping to avoid for the next level.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  34:56  
I've been reasonably careful about that. You know, I'm not personally swearing about individuals, but Well, I did. We did have a pretty interesting candidate forum one day at the at a, you know, Chamber of Commerce out and near Peter Duttons electorate. Peter Dutton was there as was, you know, the local MP here at the time. And again, I didn't mince words, I suppose I wasn't rude. But they went there. They went there thinking, Oh, great, we're in. We're in our space. You know, we're in a chamber of commerce, everyone's going to ask us about small business or whatever. But all of the questions from the floor. Were about refugee policy. We're about climate action. You know, we're about health care policy and all of that to both Dotto and, and and our local member. And so it was so interesting, you know, you could feel the winds of change, and

Jan Fran  35:52  
Don't call him that I am absolutely not prepared to give him a name. That is no fun. Sorry. I remember him saying that there was a mistake to bring Lebanese people to Australia. I've not forgotten. My people don't forget, we don't mind people

Elizabeth Watson Brown  36:11  
and keep, hang on to that. Hang on to that hang on to that thought, yeah. But it wasn't a benign atmosphere for them even in a place that they thought they were going to be comfortable. And they were with friends, because everyone was asking them about these things. So it was pretty obvious in that room at that time, that that's what people were concerned about. So I don't know how teeny ad you can just keep me. But this is what the what everyone's been saying.

Dan Ilic  36:37  
Yeah. Let me ask you this. How did the climate independents managed to pick seats where there weren't strong green contenders? Or was there any kind of collusion that didn't want to pick up a phone to figure out this?

Elizabeth Watson Brown  36:52  
Well, it's interesting, when I met with them, I met for a kind of a nascent voices of Ryan group before Christmas, who reached out to me and I reached out to them as well, you know, I knew that it was happening. And they were having meetings, it was all about, you know, let's, let's talk about politics in Ryan. And let's let's engage with things. I had a really good meeting with them. I don't know whether they were planning at that stage to run a candidate. But we certainly had a a good chat about who I was and what we you know what we were standing.

Dan Ilic  37:29  
So maybe they were too intimidated by you. Browns, got her shit sorted. Let's go here.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  37:35  
I don't know, I don't know. But you know, they have been pretty supportive and interested in what our campaign has been doing. Because there's so much alignment really, between what the tills are talking about what the greens are talking about. But the TEALS is basically talking about three things, which are just some elements that we agree with. And we all know what they are, you know, its integrity, its treatment of women, and its action on climate. We are all interested in those things. I'm really interested in working with them on that, but our platform and our concerns are so much broader than that. Nothing. People are really interested in here.

Dan Ilic  38:08  
We've had, we've had, we've had Adam on the show, and every time so he said, Yeah,

Elizabeth Watson Brown  38:12  
I'm a fan. I listened to all you. I'm Jen from Def Jam. You gotta be nice to me, right?

Dan Ilic  38:22  
Oh, no, let me just click Log into Patreon. So if you're a Patreon

Jan Fran  38:28  
flattery will get you every every way.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  38:30  
I'm learning this media thing. I am so new to this game. But

Dan Ilic  38:36  
it is. So it is so refreshing to talk to you at the very start of your political career.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  38:41  
Before I just become poisoned and jaded.

Jan Fran  38:46  
Yeah, we'll check back with you in three years. See if you're still

Dan Ilic  38:50  
talking about moving forward and working families.

Jan Fran  38:54  
All right, the next three years, what is what's what's your one great hope for the next three years? Look,

Elizabeth Watson Brown  38:59  
I really do want to be part of you know, real action on climate change. It is just, it's not quite too late. But it's bloody late. You know, and, and that's certainly been. And I want to represent the people of Ryan, and that's in front of mind for them. We know that more than 75% of REITs are really concerned about that. And that's been the kind of linking thing across all of the different groups in Ryan, all the different sort of socio economic groups and interest groups and things like that. The underpinning thing that's common to everyone is the desire for that. So I see that as a major, you know, element of what I want to do there,

Dan Ilic  39:36  
so So what would you say to a cop in Brisbane, just before the Olympics, do you think that's a good idea?

Elizabeth Watson Brown  39:43  
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's not something I've really thought about or addressed. But anything that means that we kind of discuss and collaborate things in a more thorough and deep way are good.

Jan Fran  39:58  
And how would you sort Climate change to a cop?

Dan Ilic  40:04  
Specifically, specifically, specifically one cop Datto.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  40:09  
Yeah, yeah. To a cop, same thing. This is about the future for all of our children and grandchildren. That was a big driver for me as well. I mean, I've been very sort of politically interested person. But a big driver for me when they started asking me whether I would run was that feeling that I couldn't sit by anymore? And just witness? Just watch what I felt was the future being stolen from the children and the grandchildren. Yeah.

Dan Ilic  40:35  
Elizabeth, one last question for now you're a new member of parliament, who are you going to deliver your first novelty check to

Elizabeth Watson Brown  40:44  
I actually was at a ceremony this morning as a kind of a proto MP, we're a big novelty check arrived, and I was so excited. I love it novelty. I think it'll go to a Women's Refuge. I'm really proud as an architect the best project they ever did. And lots of them have been glamorous and kind of, you know, they get published, they've been published in magazines. But the one that I'm most proud of, is designing the first purpose built refuge for women and children. Escaping domestic violence. No one will ever see it because it has to be secret. So I think it would go to a group that supports supports that. Yeah. Thank you. All right.

Jan Fran  41:20  
That's a great cause. And he here to more action on climate change with the majority of the Australian people want so good luck in the bearer.

Elizabeth Watson Brown  41:28  
Thanks. Great. Great to meet you and grace as well, because I bought it in early. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks a lot. Have a great day. Bye bye.

Robbie McGreggor  41:41  
Yeah, I'm Fran. House issues.

Dan Ilic  41:44  
The future Queensland, perfect one day, green the next.

Jan Fran  41:50  
Yeah, man, it's been a it's been a hectic week, I'm looking forward to seeing how this parliament kicks off. Because it really is. It's a parliament that we've never seen before. Never seen it very excited.

Dan Ilic  42:01  
It's gonna be super interesting to see just how this it looks like Labour's gonna get the majority. But it's going to seem to be just how these new faces in Parliament can hold labor to account in the lower house and what kind of pressure they can lean on labor for to kind of get those emissions reductions. So that's what I'm looking forward to

Jan Fran  42:18  
say indeed. Well, folks, I think I think we've come to the end of the last episode of Jan Fran has issues.

Dan Ilic  42:26  
Jen Fran, it's so fun to be your co pilot hanging out with you as you delve through the issues. Oh my God, we've gone through all the issues in all the issues

Jan Fran  42:35  
possible. I mean, there's there's quite a number of issues actually, that we haven't gone through, but we've gone through the main ones, you know,

Dan Ilic  42:43  
there are definitely some outstanding Yeah. Look, I just want to say a big thank you to you, Jan, congratulations on getting this podcast up and going. I also want to say a big thank you to our producers. Frank Lopez and Caitlin sorry, thanks, guys. All the way from from sunny from the from sunny Queensland themselves. Look at them. We're in the greenest state in Australia. So

do you think do you think do you think because you you produce this on the Sunshine Coast that the this whole podcast has a green slant for a reason?

Jan Fran  43:13  
Oh, look, we're still in a very safe Well, look, I don't drink too far. They're not they're not in inner city, Brisbane just yet.

Dan Ilic  43:23  
And if you are a corporate person, you know, you're like, Gee, I wish we had an eight part podcast. You should get in touch with F and K media. That is such a great job on this one.

Jan Fran  43:31  
They really did. I'm just I'm also just gonna speak them very quickly. For anybody listening who wants radio audio producers out there. You guys have been the best. Thank you so much. And also big thank you to you, Dan. Brown. Thanks to everyone. Thanks to the producers. Thanks, Dan. Thanks to you for listening. Thanks to me this and the Bear Bear.

Dan Ilic  43:52  
Thanks to the Jim Foundation who financially supported this podcast. Thank you so much for that, otherwise, this will absolutely happen. Also big thank you to our Patreon members and quite a few people signed up over the last few weeks. I'm just gonna read their names up very quickly. Tim Keegan Joe Clark, Andy Griffiths, Robert Hancock, Margaret balcom, Colin Jones, and Fairhead Hamish Brown, Sue Bush, Nina RG Hayden shore, and Peter tippet. Thank you so much for signing up. If you want to support a rational feed into the future, just go to patreon.com forward slash, rational fear. And also a big shout out to the Gadigal land and the urination of where Jen and I reside. This land we stand up so yeah, big thank you to you, our listener,

Jan Fran  44:37  
thank you guys, and we really hope that you got something out of the podcast. And if you rocked up on Saturday and you cast your vote regardless of what it was. You're a legend. We hope you enjoyed the democracy sausage catch you next time.

Robbie McGreggor  44:53  
Jam Fran has issues brought to you by a rational fear

Unknown Speaker  44:59  
Good day

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Jan Fran Has Issues…with Election Questions. We speak to political reporter Amy Remeikis from the Guardian, and Alex Morris from the Australian Electoral Commission, who answers how you can make your vote count while drawing a dick on the ballot. ✏️🍆✅ 

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TRANSCRIPT: 

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
This episode is supported by the jib Foundation.

Unknown Speaker  0:05  
The Election Race is heating up with a new poll showing labor and the coalition and neck to neck the fate of Scott Morrison and Anthony Albanese is in the hands of the women of Australia and many unsold on either I would describe women as being angry. What would you have done differently in the last three years if you had known that so many Australians were holding a grudge? Oh, I think I could have certainly been more sensitive. It is traditional for the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition to give their final major addresses of the campaign to the National Press Club. Prime Minister Scott Morrison becomes the first prime minister in over 50 years to not give such an address. We wish him well on Saturday, as we do our speaker today. Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese, why is everybody laughing? Jan fram has issues breaking down the election on issue at a time brought to you by a rational fear.

Jan Fran  1:01  
Why is everybody laughing Laura tingle. It has been a very, very funny week. And welcome, everybody to Jan Fran has issues the podcast that breaks down the election one issue at a time. How's this week been for you, Daniel? Jen, I've gone from extremely stressed to extremely calm. But now I'm back in the stressed out category. So yeah, you're a swing voter. You're dead, right? I am a swing voter.

Unknown Speaker  1:29  
Yeah, well, you're certainly not the only one that's for sure. On today's show, by the way, because the election is just around the corner, we are on the final countdown, we're going to do something a little bit different. So we've asked you guys to give us some questions. And we're going to get those questions answered. And we're going to do in two ways. So we're going to be talking policy, first of all issues. You know how we love to talk about issues on this show. We're going to be talking all of your policy questions with Guardian journaux Amy ramakers, who is an absolute garden when it comes to policy stuff around elections. And then we're going to talk about the practicalities of voting actually getting into the booth, what happens, how to do it? What if you get COVID, all of those sorts of questions. And we're gonna do that with Alex Morris from the Australian Electoral Commission. That's on today's app. And then next week, we're gonna be talking about how the election was faked with qn on himself, so it's gonna be great. We're gonna save the best philosophy

Unknown Speaker  2:29  
because we're not doing any big issues on the show today. We're going to be taking issue though, with something that happened over the course of the week. And the thing that I have chosen to take some issue with is Scott Morrison, tackling a child a child have a listen.

Unknown Speaker  2:57  
I don't think that was the actual science thing. We actually got a State of Origin clip there. By mistake. Yes. It was not as bad as what we've made it sound are we the media that is sensationalizing the realities? We've tried not to do that. We've reached the pinnacle of our careers. We are the fake news.

Unknown Speaker  3:17  
We've gotten through so many episodes without being fake news. And we trip at the final hurdle, just like Scott Morrison tripped on that rugby field. Let me let me put this into context. scomo was out playing a game of soccer. I think it was with some young kids on the campaign trail. And he accidentally and I want to stress it clearly was an accident that he tackled this young kid to the ground. Little kids have had it too good for too long, Jan. They need to be brought brought down to size. Well, specifically the Shin Shin height, at least Scott Morrison. Well, it's you'd be pleased to know that Luca, who was the young boy that got tackled, he's got he stood up and he gave the pm a bit of a high five. But yes, you know, it's only been a few days since Scott Morrison called himself a bulldozer. We didn't think it was a literal thing. And it is basically the event that sparked a million names. Exactly. That's right. That's right. So that's one thing that happened on the campaign trail this week.

Unknown Speaker  4:15  
Jam has issues. So as you guys know, we love talking about issues on this podcast. Over the past few weeks, we've covered housing, we've covered foreign policy, we've covered cost of living, but I know that the election is is right around the corner. It's almost D Day, Dan. Yeah, I mean, we certainly haven't covered where to get a Veggie Sausage for democracy, sausage people out there. So we need to definitely cover that. Well. There are some just really important things that we need to you know, we need to just get across before we head to the polls. They are of course all issues based so we did put that question to you guys. If you have any questions about policies, shoot them our way and that you did. We're very grateful certainly did so this

Dan Ilic  4:59  
cuz I just kind of like a cliff notes of the last three years of issues so you can understand every single issue in about half an hour. Yeah, if, if that is even possible. And then, of course answering your questions, we have Amy ramakers, from The Guardian, who has been live blogging, their selection, so she's totally fine and has not sustained any brain injuries. Welcome, Amy. 

Amy Remeikis  5:23  
Thank you. Thank you. I mean, I'm not sure if I would say I've sustained a brain injury or just compounded the one I have from covering parliament. But here we are. Here we are, indeed. Without any further ado, let's jump right in. Our first question comes from Esther McMahon, and this is her question for you, Amy. Hey, Jen. My name is Esther. My question is about the coalition's promise to let me take 50k out of my super to pay for my first house. Can you tell me how it is different from the first home supersaver scheme that the government has already been doing for a year where I can take up to 30,000? Out of my super to pay for my first home? Good question. They sound like quite similar policies, what is the difference here, the difference is a stir on the face of it is the Super Saver policy allows you to put extra money into your super account where it will accrue more interest and grow quicker than it would in a bank account. So you can put up to an extra 30,000 tax free, get a little bit more interest and then hopefully grow your house deposit faster than you would in a bank. What the coalition is offering now is to actually use your super balance to add towards your home loan. So it's 40% or $50,000, whichever is the greater figure. And you can then use that towards your house deposit. But you have to put it back. Allegedly, when you sell the house down the track along with any capital gains. That's the main difference. One is that your money that's growing in interest in a super account. The other is it's your money from your super balance, but has to be put back. There are issues with the government's latest one, according to economists, because you do miss out on some of that growth, for $50,000 Probably won't actually even cover the fees and things that you have. And there are fears that it's going to lead to a further bump in house prices, because it's open to absolutely everyone. Wow, that's very clear. Thank you, Amy.

Dan Ilic  7:28  
Can I use that $50,000 to go to the Hilton and just live there live there for some time? Well, the government also allowed you to take out $20,000 during COVID. So you could have gone to the Hilton, if you could show that you were in economic distress. But given the numbers of people who actually took out money from their super during the pandemic, it would be very surprising if there were many people under the age of 30, who actually have $50,000 in their super account at the moment. Wow. A very, very good point and staying with the topic of housing. We have another question from Susie Wakefield. This question is not about the coalition's policy, but rather Labour's Suzy, take it away. What happens if you enter the Labour's sharing home loan policy where they pay? I think 40% What happens if you can't reach your repayments? Can the government take your house away from you? Thanks, Amy. What happens if you can't make your repayments and labor has put in 40% of the cost of your home? Do you have to have Jim Chalmers come over?

Unknown Speaker  8:36  
That's exactly a member of the Labour caucus then moves into a room in your house? No, that is not what happens. Jesus Christ, that's better just taking the house coming and living with me, mate, just take my hat off. You come home and there's Tony Burke or Shane.

Unknown Speaker  8:55  
Or you go over movies now?

Amy Remeikis  8:58  
No, that is not what happens. So the way that Labour's housing policy is it Shared Equity, so you still have to go to a bank and get a loan. So basically, what labour is saying is if you want to buy a $650,000 home, because that's how much houses cost in your area, but you can only get a loan for 450 or 500,000 is that the government will essentially cover the remaining part of the loan that you're unable to get from the bank. And basically just kind of give it to you as sort of rent free money until you sort of sell the house. So pay them back or refinance them or pay them back or start earning more money and go over the cap and can pay them back. So if you couldn't make your repayments, the bank would probably end up taking your home to be clear, and that's how it sort of worked in other equity sharing things. It's no different from a normal mortgage in that sense. However, there are safeguards in place if you

No, we have the you have the usual safeguards if you lose your job, because you will need some sort of like income insurance that goes with this mortgage insurance, you the home cannot, it's not eligible for this scheme if you don't have just everyday insurance. So if it's flood or fire or something, then you become an eligible for the scheme if you have not insured your home. And if you decide to sell or you know, something happens, you've got two years with the government to work out what it is that you do. So if you've got to move, and you're no longer able to live in the home, which is one of the rules you've got, you've got a little bit of leeway there to say, Well, I'm moving for this reason, this is why it's happening. If you start earning over the $120,000, I think it is, you've got about two years to work it out with the government over how you buy them out from that equity. If you die and you haven't paid off the house, and you've left it to your kids. And your kids don't over that cap. Again, they can work out over the next couple of years with the government to how that Shared Equity works out. But labor is sort of saying we imagine that people will have paid off a big chunk of their loan, or in fact paid back the government for the equity that they're putting into the house by the time that they do they do pass on. And that's how it's worked in state schemes like Western Australia where it's been around for about 30 years, Victoria and indeed the UK. Wow. Well, two years is quite generous, because you'd only spend about one year of that on the phone to Centrelink. So that will

Unknown Speaker  11:35  
work out. All right. You have a year to sort that out. Yeah, it is also only open to 10,000 people as well. So you have to check if you're eligible for that one. Wow. Well, that is quite an unlimited number of folks, isn't it? Yeah, I think that's been the big criticism of Labour's policies that it is only 10,000 places. Not a lot when you consider how many people are struggling to get into the housing market. Alright, let's move on. We've got our next question. We're moving on from housing entirely. This question comes from Gemma from purse. Hi, Jen. Gemma in Perth lucky podcast. I was just wondering if any of the political parties have any COVID policies. I'm on chemotherapy, so I'm severely immunocompromised. And also I have a two year old who isn't eligible for vaccination. I'm feeling really abandoned at the moment by politicians, especially in Perth, because COVID is rampant right now. Okay, thanks there. Gemma, I know she's really going through it at the moment. And thank you so much for your question, Gemma, because I think that there would be a lot of people who are in that same boat, we've got 10s of 1000s of cases of COVID. Right around the country. I know we want to think that it's over. I really want to think that it's over. It's not it's still around. And I think the most vulnerable amongst us are really kind of feeling the pinch here, including Gemma. So COVID On the campaign trail, Amy? Haven't heard too much of it. What are the policies? No. And Gemma, I just yeah, it must be terrifying for anyone who has immune compromised as going to the shops and taking your life into your own hands, especially since everybody just kind of dropped the mask mandate. So massive, massive sympathies. And if you can still wear a mask in those essential shopping areas, just you know, just do it for humanity. It just makes sense. But anyways, COVID has not played a huge role in the election campaign, which is kind of crazy when you consider how much dominated our life for the first two years of this government. Not to mention both leaders were out for it like only a month ago. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But it did actually pop up on the campaign on Wednesday where Scott Morrison was asked about it. And that's because we have had more deaths in the first five months of this year than we did in the last two years combined. So more than four or 5000 people have died of COVID. This year, it's working out to be about 45 people a day, are dying from COVID Each day in Australia. So Scott Morrison was asked about it. And he basically gave the same answer that we've been hearing that this is living with COVID and we are sick of governments in our lives. And he actually used quite interesting language, where he moved into that Freedom Party area where he was talking about people dying with the COVID rather than people dying of COVID. He is gone. The we're not getting governments in your lives anymore. We're not going to have any more lockdowns, we're not going to have the daily press conferences. We're just going to get on with it. And everything that we have done over the last two years has allowed you to get on with it. So that was a pretty blunt answer from Scott Morrison on Wednesday, Anthony Albanese was also asked about it, and he had a little bit more sympathy. He also said like you know, there is high vaccination rates, which is true for the first and second doses not necessarily true. With the third dose. We're kind of lagging behind in that fourth

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
doses aren't even eligible or open to eligibility for everyone at the moment, which is another problem as we head into winter. But Anthony Albanese said if he wins government, he would actually just like to convene a national strategy. So we have one moving forward. So we all know when we're getting third and fourth doses. So we all know what's happening. Well, it's sounds like a good idea to have a national strategy, something that might have been missing over this two year period.

Unknown Speaker  15:28  
leaving it up to the states. I don't think it was getting those job apparently, you know, no, no, it wasn't, you know, he just get the army involved a little bit earlier. That's the only thing he would do differently, apparently. So just an army officer and everybody's home, they get the vaccine. But you know, back in summer, we were taking wickets during the pandemic, and now we're in football season. So we're taking goals in the pandemic. Yeah, we're tackling with the pandemic, we're playing with the shock ease with the pandemic. It's, you know, it's all moving on. So, Gemma terrifying? Yeah, exactly. I think the long and short of it is that

Unknown Speaker  16:06  
the politicians or the major parties anyway, labor in the coalition don't really want to be talking about COVID. By the sounds of it. We're living with it. That's what's happening. And that seems to be a bipartisan strategy, albeit with some slight differences on either side. So take care of yourself, Gemma, that's, that's what I'd say. All right. Our next question comes from Kate. She is from Victoria. And this is her question. Well, to me, but also to you, Amy. Hi, Fran. My question is, what are the teeth that an independent federal ipecac would have? Will it take years to investigate an ex pm and his cabinet before Republic loses faith that the delay in cost and what penalties can be employed, applied? Jail, monetary barred from border to drop? Love to know. All right, the taste? Yes. Important question. It is? Well, I mean, if we're talking about the policy that the government has put forward, the coalition has put forward doesn't have a lot of teeth wouldn't actually be able to investigate most of the scandals that we heard about over the last Parliament wouldn't be investigating MPs, it would essentially just be looking at, you know, public servants would be done behind closed doors. It's, it's the biggest criticisms of it is that it wouldn't actually do anything. No, we wouldn't actually see anything different than what we're currently seeing it and Scott Morrison can bang on about the fact that it's 367 pages or whatever. But it was not tabled in Parliament. The government's won. Definitely gummy, not not with teeth,

Unknown Speaker  17:46  
or gums No.

Unknown Speaker  17:48  
Which one has the Trumpers. The crossbench has put through a integrity commission which proposal which has chompers. They're saying that everyone should be able to be investigated that they'd be open hearings, that that the independent investigators actually they get take referrals and they decide what they look into. But the independence crossbench proposal for an integrity commission does have teeth and that is looking at, you know, jail and fines. But it is important to note that integrity Commission's do not make findings. They do not decide whether you are guilty or innocent. All's they do is put together a brief of evidence and then give it to the Department of Public Prosecutions who then decides whether to lay charges and take it to court? Yeah, so the short answer is that, yes, it you could end up in jail. That's not for the commission to decide that's for another department to decide. But what penalties if any, can the commission apply? Or are they there just to make recommendations? Amy? Yeah. Do you do like do you get like a scratch and sniff sticker? If you know if you're really terrible or something?

Unknown Speaker  19:04  
I mean, that's kind of what you get. Now you just get a bit of a sniff around everything that's happening and go, Oh, we don't like that.

Unknown Speaker  19:11  
The Commission probably wouldn't be have penalties, because then that would take away from what the commission actually does, which is investigate labor have said that they want one with teeth and that they would support what the independents were putting forward. So they want something that is more meaty that what the government is putting forward. I'm not really interested in the penalties in the independence one I'm more interested in how many pages is it more or less? And are we talking a4 pages? How is how small is the font? Is it a scroll I imagined could be ascribed things that I find really amusing about the fact that he's like it's 367 pages, is that that climate will see that they took to Glasgow was about four pages.

Unknown Speaker  19:56  
I think that that was written on the back of a coaster

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
a lot on the back of a napkin. Yeah. Okay, we've got um, one last question for you. I mean, I think this one is, is a really important one. So we're gonna shoot it over to Nico from Melbourne. Nico, what's your question? Why is John Howard still alive?

Unknown Speaker  20:16  
Nico that is a very good question. I don't know if Amy Rebekah's has Brain Juice for this one. I also just love the tone in which Nicole asked that question. very fatigued, very tired. So obviously we do not wish death upon that anybody. We don't I don't know why John Howard is still alive, whether it's those daily walks that he took just generally staying hydrated and looking after himself, or whether there's been any sort of dark deals done at crossroads. I cannot answer that point. But he is still alive as he is still campaigning and he's currently trying to get Josh Frydenberg elected in Kooyong Ami. He's still alive because he walks in a tracksuit, every morning still, you know, that's what he does. He gets around. He does his morning walks, physical exercise. Sometimes I think people stay alive just by sheer grudge power to like just wanting to outlive other people. So

Unknown Speaker  21:19  
that's what drives me as an Eastern European spy is keeping me alive.

Unknown Speaker  21:25  
Yeah, he just be still. I think he's just happy that he's just holding on to Keating dies before exactly that's just a race between the two of them saying like you will come to my funeral. What I would really like to see is the Liberals wheel out Robert Menzies just like exhume the body get him around to some swing electorates. Weekend at Bernie's. We

Unknown Speaker  21:45  
definitely do not wish John Howard harm. Please do not send me lots of letters. Jaren Henderson? Yes, please don't slide into our DMS about that. It was just a joke. Question. John, May you live a long and comfortable life good on you. And Amy, thank you so much for joining us and answering all of our listener questions in just the exceptional way that you can. Anytime we've just got a few more days to get through and then I'm just drinking all of the tequila in the world.

Unknown Speaker  22:13  
Can I just ask you on the 22nd of May? Do you go someplace to have your brain wiped? So you can fill it with like new stuff? Well, you know what, I'm not sure if we'll have a government on the 22nd of May. So that'll probably be delayed until we work out who's won the election? I'm sure it's on the PVS.

Unknown Speaker  22:32  
Jam Fran has issues.

Unknown Speaker  22:36  
That was Amy ramakers, a journalist from The Guardian talking us through all of your policy questions. We did promise as well down that we weren't just going to talk about policies we were going to talk about the practicalities of voting Dare I say the nuts and bolts and pencils of voting? The don't draw a dick and balls on the ballot of voting. I think Alex will have something to say about that. But let's let's ask him about that for sure. Yes, let's ask him Alex. The Alex in question is Alex Morris from the Australian Electoral Commission here to answer all of your questions regarding Dixon bowls and various other practicalities so welcome Alex

Unknown Speaker  23:17  
nuts and boats and you went straight for Dixon bowls. She's Jen, I

Unknown Speaker  23:24  
get this one out of the way I had the pleasure of tweeting a C and a the AC Twitter account told me yes I can draw a dick and balls as long as the intention of my vote is clear. I just want to get that on the record is that yes that wasn't in fact me that answered your question Dan's

Unknown Speaker  23:40  
fantastic as long as you've number j boxes correctly that's every box in the house ballot paper one to six but the line one to 12 below the line for the Senate. Yes, you can draw what you like but

Alex Morris  23:51  
over 100,000 people to staff our polling places and to count the votes one of them might be your auntie or your uncle or your nana. You got to think about whether you want Nana looking at that. Well you're not going to be signing it What about like a nice little message to the to the counter saying Good job. Keep counting. You know, look, that's always lovely. Just so long as you again you don't identify yourself that's that's the whiskey Ron here. Okay, do you person reading this take regular blank breaks and drink plenty of water. Thank you. It's good advice. I personally just want to encourage people to vote in the right order just to make sure that their vote is clear and concise. And I know that we're saying that you can draw a bunch of things around it. Just don't do it properly. Get it in there, baby. That's my hot tip for Saturday, Jan Fran the Wowza from down on that just said no.

Unknown Speaker  24:40  
Please don't mess with democracy. This is because Jen Jen grew up in Lebanon. She's very she's you know, she's nervous. She's nervous about democracy. Well, actually funny. You mentioned that because the Lebanese election was just last week. And yeah, it's a shit show. So you know, we've got a pretty functioning democracy down here. I'm constantly reminded of that.

Unknown Speaker  25:00  
come election times around the world. But let's get cracking. We're talking practicalities, we've got our first question. It comes from Jessie in New South Wales. Hello, Jen. My name is Jessie. And I have a question about voting, which is, will there in my lifetime, be online voting? Because I just think about the whole process. And it's so extremely analog and old fashioned feeling, which is just more and more at odds with like, the way the rest of the world is thinking. Yeah. Interesting. That's a good question. Thank you, Jesse. What do you reckon Alex? Far out? Well, Jen, I think it's interesting that we sort of started by talking about an overseas election. We're a world leader in terms of election security, election, transparency, election integrity, and something that we can all actually be really, really proud of. And part of that is that we have this like analog pen and pencil and paper or pen and paper, if you want to bring a pen process that is heavily scrutineers. If we were to consider electronic voting, and this would be a matter for the parliament to consider. It's not something they see can like snap our fingers and make happen.

Unknown Speaker  26:17  
But we would need to be able to ensure that if an electronic system were brought in, that it could replicate that level of integrity of transparency. And it's not something you'd want to sort of bring in at the last minute or you know, to go a bit course you don't you don't want to half assed this stuff.

Unknown Speaker  26:35  
You want to put your full OS into it. And really make you want to full asset.

Unknown Speaker  26:43  
Cheeks. Okay, do you occasionally see overseas things like, you know, claims that elections have been stolen or have been fraudulent. In Australia, that's just not possible because of all of the levels of scrutiny that are applied. So you've got your scrutineers, you've got every ASC staff member signing a declaration of political neutrality. And everything that we do is subject to all of this scrutiny. And you just want to make sure that if there's an electronic aspect brought in, that it's capable of that same level of scrutiny as well. Yeah, I mean, just hearing like the last US election, just all the conversation around the Dominion voting machines and the other voting machines that don't work and things like that, and voting machines breaking down. I can't imagine if we entrust the same people who put the NBN together to do our voting that it would go so swiftly. That was a slightly longer answer here, Alex, but to answer Jesse's question, no, we probably won't see online voting maybe in our lifetime, even though that does seem a bit crazy to me. Maybe? Are we waiting? Are we waiting for the technology to develop? Maybe? I mean, realistically, probably, yes. Jesse did fails as well, in her lifetime. I don't know how long Jesse's gonna live. So that that does

Unknown Speaker  28:00  
make it difficult because it couldn't be 99.

Unknown Speaker  28:04  
Under the pump, I would never threaten Jesse, we think this is cool. All right. Let's go to our our second question. There. It's from Julie. So Julie, kick it away? What's your question? Hi. My question is about the Senate.

Unknown Speaker  28:17  
I'm thinking of voting below the line in the Senate, because I don't particularly want to vote for one party, I think I'd rather vote for individuals. So number one to 12. And my choices will obviously be split between the parties. Just wondering how significant it is to do that, is my vote. Gonna make more of a difference? If I go above the line? Or if I do go below the line and choose the individuals? Does that only really come into play?

Unknown Speaker  28:50  
You know, if it's a close call, and they have to start counting preferences. I'm a little bit confused. So any light that you could shed on that would be fantastic. Thanks. Okay. Thank you for your question, Julie. Essentially, how does one make their vote count in the Senate hours? Hey, just another easy one, then. It sounds like Johnny's actually kind of answered her own question here. So she wants to vote for individual candidates rather than parties or groups. That's what we'll overland ridings for so so long as your number at least one to 12 the load line, you are having your say. And it sounds like she prefers specific candidates over maybe the way the party is grouped? That's fine. Go for it bloodline. If you just want to vote for parties above the line, at least one to six and you're good to go.

Unknown Speaker  29:37  
And is it more significant? If you do vote below the line? Like does your does your vote?

Unknown Speaker  29:42  
Count more? Does it give the parties a bit more information about who you want? Does it affect preferences? What's the key difference between voting above or below the line in terms of your vote? Every vote has the same level of significance. So you know, we've all everyone's vote weighs the same that's sort of a basic principle.

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
with democracy, all it is is that you are saying. So if you vote above the line, a party has a list below the line of candidates in a particular order. So it might be apple, orange pear or something like that, to use the sort of fruit based example we use in the Education Center. You might decide that you like pear more than apple, orange. So you want to vote below the line for pear first. And if you're in New South Wales, you got tons of people below the line. Do you get any fill out below the line correctly? Do you get a certificate or something or a sticker? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  30:30  
I know it's a huge number. I think Anthony Green has done the research on this. And it's only a very, very small percentage of total voters that do this. There is actually a risk here as well. Because if your number every box, like the more boxes, there are the number the more numbers you gotta remember, there's a chance that you might be number one numbering, skip a number of European number, it won't make your vote completely informal in the Senate. But your vote does stop at the point where you stuff are gone. So it's slightly risky, a little bit more risk with voting below the line. Actually, I got a message from John Rooney, the Olympian. Thank you, John, for sending in the message, which was exactly about this issue. She said she had no problems voting in the House of Representatives take but the Senate card was so different because the abbreviations of each party above the line was so hard to decipher. She didn't even know what party was necessarily available to vote for. And she hardly knew any of the state representatives that were standing in for the Senate and what they stood for. And, you know, what their what their Gambit was, she was sort of much more focused on the local candidates for the House of Representatives. So she kind of just flagged that as like, this is less of a question and more of a comment. Just be aware when you're voting in the Senate. Also, Gian had a problem because she didn't go 12345 She awarded gold, silver and bronze.

Unknown Speaker  31:50  
really messed that up.

Unknown Speaker  31:52  
That was that was the other issue. Thank you, Gian. Alright, let's go to Gina from Victoria. She's got a question about voting and COVID, which is still a thing. Here's her question. Hey, Jen, just a question about voting. I tested positive for COVID This morning, which is Tuesday. And I've applied for a postal vote, because it's open till tomorrow evening.

Unknown Speaker  32:15  
I'm in regional Victoria, though, and a little pop up came up in my dress in saying, Hey, we might not get the papers to you in time, go to a pre poll station, if you can. Clearly I can't do that. I'm just wondering, what do I do if the papers don't get here? I really want my fake account. Any advice would be welcome. Thanks so much. Bye. Oh, Jaina. Hopefully the papers get there. I know there'd be so many people in genius position as well. Because as much as we'd like to think that yeah, COVID Not a thing. It definitely is a thing. So to the people who who have gotten COVID This week might get COVID tomorrow. What do they do, Alex? This is this is a tough one. We're answering a lot of questions from people in Janice position today. First of all, I've heard that sort of force before that, that sort of COVID throat voice, it sucks. I hope you get Jaina because she Gina tested positive before six o'clock on Tuesday night, she is eligible for a postal vote. As she said, she's not eligible for telephone voting. Anyone that tests positive after 6pm on Tuesday night is eligible. Now what we started doing this week is printing out postal votes at our local divisional offices and sending them out through Express post rather than batch producing them in Sydney or Melbourne and sending them that way. There's a good chance by the time that you're listening to this, that Jane has received her postal votes in the mail. And her vote will still get back to us in time because we do have 13 days after Election Day to receive the postal votes back from voters as well. That's something that we always wait for during the count. So there is time for Janice to do that. In terms of witnessing you need you need to post record to be witnessed. If you don't have a housemaid or a partner or someone that can in your place that can do that for you. You can consider sort of a contact free witnessing thing the same way that you do with food delivery. So you know, pop your poster right on the doorstep, have someone come witness it, sign it, and then cast your vote. So I hope that helps Virginia. The other thing I will say is

Unknown Speaker  34:17  
there's a difficult situation for a lot of people who might be in a situation where look, if you don't get your postal vote, you might not be able to vote on the day. We do send it out. We don't just blanket fine people. We do send you a letter going basically, hey, doesn't look like you've voted. Can you please tell us why? And obviously, I was in COVID isolation, I wasn't able to make it to a polling place is something we would absolutely consider. Well, I had a friend actually who just texted me this morning. I like she got COVID on Sunday. So we're recording this podcast here on Thursday. She got it a few days ago on Sunday, and thought that she would be able to use the phone system but looks like she can't and now has to kind of scramble to apply for a postal vote and hope that it gets

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
It's hearing time before Saturday. So she's she's a little bit miffed about about that, and kind of texted me in a flurry. So ask the person see this question. I said, Well, funnily enough, we've got someone on the podcast and just a few hours. What do you have to say to that? What else to say to that? I would love to be able to say, look, yeah, we can extend this to everyone. The eligibility for the phone binding, and it's been rolled out as a serious emergency measure, the legislation actually, like automatically expires at the end of the year. So it's not something that we'll be offering in future, as the parliament makes a further call on that, but the legislation is super, super strict about who is eligible. And it does relate to that, you know, testing positive as at a certain date. So, again, for anyone who is in that situation, I do feel for you,

Unknown Speaker  35:49  
though, it's one of those things where like, there are people at every election who encounter medical emergencies as well, there are people that go into labor, and I don't mean to political party, I mean, you know, childbirth, and hospitalized and can't make it there are people that have heart attacks. And there are people for whatever reason that can't vote on the day. And we're not just like soulless automatons who are just going to send you a $20 fine for not going we we do understand that their life gets in the way sometimes and we're happy to consider those circumstances. Okay, our next question comes from Aisha in Queensland. Hi, Jen. The state of my electorate is considered very safe. It's never been lost to labour or not for many decades and is currently held by key government minister. The margin they won by last election was 20 to 12%. Which I only half understand how that works. So does that mean that they got over 50% in the first round of preferential voting? Would voting for this a minor party then throw my vote away when they see it is so safe? At the end of the day? I'd rather much rather labour to get in. Okay, there's incumbent Queensland. I didn't want to vote for my minority party. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker  37:04  
Oh, no mas questions.

Unknown Speaker  37:07  
Okay, so I used to live in a very safe seat that's never been lost. To labor. The margin that was one at the last election was 12%. What does that mean?

Unknown Speaker  37:17  
I tell you what, these are some amazing questions. Your listeners have gone above and on. They're pretty good at they shout out to you guys. Yeah, yeah, I've only got dumb questions from Twitter. No, fair, fair. That's what we get on Twitter as well. No, good, positive. Alright, so what I will say here, 12% is the difference between the winning candidate the second place candidate, so it's in this place, it's a relatively large margin. There are big ones. It's possible that the candidate in that seat and I don't know which side it was one on first preferences, which, which means that at the very first count, that candidate got 50%, plus one of the vote, that's it, they went. With that said, we still distribute preferences and do a full count in every seat, every one. Anyway, around two thirds of all the house seats for the last election, were ultimately decided on preferences, so no candidate 50% plus one at the first count,

Unknown Speaker  38:12  
in terms of having your say, though, or wasting your vote, first of all, no such thing as wasting a vote, let's be really, really clear on that. Your vote always matters every vote in every race, no matter how safe the seat always matters. Because any party that wins more than 4% of the vote, any party or candidate I should say, is eligible for election funding. And that's based on how many number ones they get in the first count, whoever you whoever you put as your number one, and assuming they hit that 4% threshold is eligible for a bit of money from the agent base. See, and that affects funding that affects that party's capacity potentially to campaign in your seat in the future. Yeah. So that that point of her question of what voting for a minority party, then throw away my vote if the seat was so safe? I think if I can just jump in here. No, if you want to vote for a minor party because you think they best represent the interests of your electorate. Go ahead and do that. That's the simplest way to think about it. When you walk into the voting booth, what do you care about? And who is going to represent those interests, the best for you and your community and ultimately the country. I follow Senator Matt Canavan on Twitter and he loves minor parties, any party to do with mining big into it. Hey, I've got a question from Twitter. This is from Andy leach one of my followers on irrational fear. He says ACS public comps are second to none no notes question. Will you get a long break after Saturday? Alex? Look not until the council over so we kind of swapped one big job for another on Saturday night. So six o'clock Saturday, we now have to count

Unknown Speaker  39:49  
cheese upward of 30 million votes. So House and Senate ballot papers will need to be counted with 13 days after the election for all the posters to come in. And that's not just from Australians wallets for

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
I'm Australians, but it's from Australians overseas as well. We've got people voting overseas and postal votes coming back through diplomatic mail. Thank you d fat for that.

Unknown Speaker  40:09  
So there's a lot to be done. And the AC will be declaring results. Look for the next few weeks probably.

Unknown Speaker  40:18  
So yeah, he never sleeps. I'm hoping to have a bit of a break in around June, July. And we'll say 2024.

Unknown Speaker  40:28  
Well, no break for you. Oh, I'm having to have a break at the end of the at the fall of democracy. That's when I can have a break.

Unknown Speaker  40:35  
Well, no break for Alex sadly on Saturday, but let me tell you, you get a break from this interview. Now we're going to let you go because I know that you have so many things that you need to do in the lead up to Saturday and presumably for some weeks to go after that. So good luck. My pleasure and happy voting.

Unknown Speaker  40:54  
Yeah, I'm Fran house issues. So great to chat with Alex Morris, one of the brains behind the Twitter account of the AC who knew we had this online relationship going all this time. Look, it tell you what they're one of the biggest issues in this election is housing prices. And this week's sponsor is a brand new government scheme to get young people into their new home. The Morison government is serious about the future of Australians. That's why we're introducing hole seeker. Australians will now have the opportunity to access $50,000 of their superannuation to buy their first bunker. I'm all in on the side of those who want to buy a hole with hole seeker live out the rest of your life hiding 10 meters underground from whatever catastrophic shitshow the world is hurtling towards who cares what 50k might grow into in 30 years time? Will there even be banks in 30 years, or a job to retire frog or air. With hole seeker your children and their children's children can feast on canned food or share oral histories about the outside and develop innovative ways to drink their own pee. While the earth witnesses an apocalyptic nightmare of biblical proportions? It boosts their ultimate retirement incomes, because they're investing in their own home the best investment anyone ever makes. No matter if you're a first bunker buyer or buying your third investment bunker sign up for whole seeker and vote for the coalition if your main concern is the cost of living on this planet. I believe buying a home is the best economic decision that you can make authorized by oh my god you can't be serious. How far can you kick this can down the road before it all comes crashing down Canberra.

Unknown Speaker  42:40  
I think that might be the most comprehensive climate policy.

Unknown Speaker  42:46  
Yeah, at least is keeping Australians safe in our home.

Unknown Speaker  42:50  
Here's the thing Jen. We've literally got so many holes from all the coal mines we've already created. So which is least start leasing those. We're halfway there. Whole keeper. That's the one big thank you to Jacob Brown and Rupert Degas, and Killian, David for that sketch. Thank you guys. And thank you guys for listening to what is the penultimate episode of Jan Fran has issues we have only one more to go because the election is on Saturday. So next week. I mean, I would love to have a crystal ball or what pull the crocodile or pull the octopus or whichever animal predicts election results these days. I don't know who it is, Can we can we for next week? Perhaps try to get the Prime Minister of Australia or an A really good impressionist of the prime minister of reckon I can plan Bay might be where we end up landing, but hey, I'm totally fine. We're gonna have an election washed up show depending on how the cookie crumbles over the next day or so over the next week or so potentially. And we'd love you to join us on the last episode. As always, before we let you go though, get out there and vote my friends Saturday. It's gonna roll on by pretty quickly have your say number the boxes correctly. Have your sauce so and you know I hate sounding earnest. But we've got a pretty good democracy going in this country comparative to some other places in the world. Trust me, I've been there. So as long as you know how to count to 75 We should plays a big thank you to our Patreon supporters F and K media Alex Morris Amy remake is killing them Rupert Degas Jacob round. Also big thanks to you, Jan and big thanks to me as well. I'm going to pat myself on the back. I do such a great job of this podcast, which is not much at all. Also big thanks to the Gadigal people of the Eora nation where Jen and I are recording this podcast.

Unknown Speaker  44:39  
And remember to vote rationally

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