Mike Pesca is joined by CNN anchor and author Abby Phillip to discuss her new book, A Dream Deferred: Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power. They explore Jackson's soaring, sermon-like rhetorical style and the hubris of the "tree shaker, not a jelly maker" philosophy. The conversation traces how Jackson's push to change delegate rules made the path possible for Barack Obama, even as the Obama campaign intentionally created contrast with Jackson's image. We dive into Jackson's unique brand of populism—more Bernie Sanders than Obama—and his surprising, Trumpian anti-globalist instincts regarding Japan and Germany. Plus, we discuss how his rhetorical style, while rousing, could also be exhausting, and why the most heartbreaking part of the world's chaos is the people who are okay with it.

Produced by Corey Wara

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