In this espisode Beth, Lee and Dan look at the mechanics of a creating hackathons based on our experiences on various projects around ethical and hackign for good.   From CSIRO projects to the Imagine Academy we we look at what makes them a success and share tips on what works well. 

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 10

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Welcome to the AI podcast. How are you, Lee? How are you, Beth? Very good, Dan. Very good, Dan. The AI podcast. So, we're still we're on that. We got to change that, you know. It's coming. It's coming. He's on his way. How are you, Beth? I'm well, thank you, Dan. What have you been up to? Uh, well, I'm enjoying a bit of sun finally here in Adelaide, which is Very nice. Um, but I have actually been doing some interesting work way out of my comfort zone which is participating in our global hackathon. Oh, cool. Tell us more. I would love to tell you more. So, um, I sort of stumbled into this program actually. So, I have a real passion for sustainability. I've done sustainability a bit in some previous jobs of mine and I've also been volunteering to um, to manage the sustainable um community here at Microsoft here in Australia. Um and I saw this hack advertised um Microsoft does a global hackathon as you know every year in October and I saw this hack advertised looking for people to support a project with the CSRO. So I put myself forward um to participate as a team member and uh long story short I was appointed into the team not as a team member but as the team manager and um fantastic so so led um actually an incredible experience that I'm still buzzing from in terms of um what I've learned and the people that I've managed to connect with and um hopefully providing support to the CSIRO that will have a longer term impact. So are you allowed to talk about the pro type of project you're on? Yeah, I I would uh be very keen to talk about it actually. So I you know I guess back in the day um I had the opportunity when I was working for a global healthcare company to manage um or develop and manage a carbon reporting framework for the business at a global level. Um that is also a a wonderful example of um stumbling into a project putting my hand up and accidentally ending up leading it at a global level. Wow. So you um you learn by doing I think is is the um is the the adage there. So as we perhaps all know now carbon calculations are really important for us to to better reduce our impact on the environment. And if you can't measure your carbon emissions, you can't reduce them. But that is just one part of the story. So this is and this is I guess what I've learned doing this biodiversity. project with the CSRO. So, carbon emissions are just one part of an organization's impact on the environment. So, that also includes things like um the impact of their operations on land use and water use, um air pollution, um the impact that they have in regard to animal populations. And so, um looking at an organizational um impact in a more holistic way is really important. So looking at the impact of an organization on local biodiversity, what makes biodiversity really hard to report on is that it's hard to c calculate, which is where the CSRO comes in. So the the uh um CSRO is an organization that we partner with across a range of different topics and we have been providing some specific support to their scientists who are looking at um this challenge of capturing biodiversity data and using that data to demonstrate environmental biodiversity value uh variables, EBVS, and using that data to provide insight to organizations as to whether or not they're having a good impact on biodiversity or a negative impact on bio diversity. And um you know, I think this is so important and as I started to learn about it, it heard to me or it's revealed that you know really all of humankind relies on biodiversity and almost every single industry from agriculture to retail to mining and manufacturing all relies on on biodiversity to to to um exist and if we don't take better care of our biodiversity we will all end up dead. So so you're the hack you're to do a hack around because that's a big I think that's maybe we can explore that during the podcast today but I think the the the thing about hacking and I suppose the origins of hacking and understanding where that comes from but then also how we go about answering or trying to answer those problems that's a huge project right knowing the CSI who are involved and when we look at hacking generally I suppose Lee do you where does hacking come from do do you know the origins of hacking or not do I do I have a story for you really yes Yes, I do know. And you're absolutely right, Dan. I didn't want to diminish the like the sustainability impact is amazing that the work they did, but the thing that first of all happened hit me was Beth's a hacker. Beth's now become a hacker. She's kind of got that hat on and she's now joining the tech nerd crowd, which is awesome. Um, so look, yeah, look, I mean, it's funny because we use this word and a lot of us would have probably, you know, think about that. In fact, you go do a Google search on on hacking and 99% of your results will be the negative, like this idea that hacking is bad. Um, and so the one thing that everybody kind of tends to know, Captain Crunch, the uh phone freaking tool about the early '7s, like 1971, um, little whistle appeared in a B box of Captain Crunch cereal in the US. And that whistle happened to be at a particular pitch, which was 2600 hertz, which was exactly the same tone hertz uh, frequency as the AT&T or Bell company as they were back then, telephones. And so you could use this whistle to to get a phone to give you a free phone call. And kind of everyone thinks back to generally that being the first example of hacking. However, however, a little bit of internet research tells me that that's not the first time it was used. So, actually in in the in a uh late late 50s, um the word hacking was recorded and used as a mechanism by a bunch of people in a sorry, we're not getting very cool anymore, the tech model railroad club. Group of people who are um railroad enthusiasts and it was literally used the hacking principle was used as a mechanism to cut through cables that very you know what we think by hacking to cut something which is the first time that the word hacking was used however we go back even further wow in the late 1800s 1878 to be precise a group of boys teenage boys which by the way tells you straight away that teenagers haven't changed in the last hundred years they're still up to no good as much as they can be They were hired by the Bell Telephone Company which is AT&T as we know um to basically uh do ethical hacking to miss to penetrate test their network. They were basically they were hired by them to kind of mess around with telephone calls to see what they were testing the service and the system very early days of telephones and that's considered to be the very first instance of intentional manipulation of a technical system in the way that we might consider to be hacking today. Wow. There you go. Potted history. That is that is potted history of hacking in in in five minutes. That's super. It just reminded me as well of of when I started to introduce concepts of computer science uh when I was in the UK and we were working on the computer science curriculum and teachers are looking for things to do. I think the interesting one was um you know when you start creating projects from the the get-go like say using a micro:bit or a Raspberry Pi, it's quite a high barrier to entry. So what's some of the people in the K were doing some of the professors like Miles Berry and people like that from the University of Hampton, they were doing toy hacking. So there was a concept that you take a toy in to the school or to what whatever event you're in and then you actually take it apart but not to a level that's you know completely in bits. You know you utilize the motors and things that are already there and then you re uh process them to do different things. So you take apart a Furby and try to make the eyes work yourself or add a battery to it and see if you can do that. So, so that that reminded me toy hacking. Well, and and the interesting thing, and I think this gets us back to kind of and I'd love to hear from Beth about kind of what it was like to be in hackathon, which is the event that you were in, Beth, because this was this at at some point in time and and it seemingly seems to be around the late 90s, early 2000s, the word hackathon started to appear and we went from hacking as a negative connotation. I mean, we had, you know, there's always been sort of um, you know, black hat and and and you know white hat hacking but it was this first time and I think it was late n late late 1999 that the somebody devised this idea of a hackathon and it was the idea was in the early days you'd be hacking over a marathon period. So hacking up until that point had been a kind of a get in quick do something and get out mechanism and the idea was that actually we might get more out of hacking if we spent more time doing it. So we kind of applied almost a um a project-based approach to hacking to create the hackathon. I was going to say like agile. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So turned into this. So So look, I mean that's a Beth, back to you. I mean, I want to hear the sustainability stuff's cool, but actually like what was a hackathon like? What did you think it would be like? Was it what you thought it was going in? And um you know, kind of tell us all about it. Yeah, I'd love to. So I I think I put my hand forward. It was mostly out of interest of the subject area as opposed to to you knowing a lot about hackathons and wanting to participate in the process. Um now I would definitely put my hand up to participate in any hackathon. Such was my love of the experience. So I think um you know I was a little bit nervous that we wouldn't get a lot achieved in a short period of time. So Microsoft allocates a certain um I think it's 3 days but it's a 24-hour cycle because you have a global team and so you're you're allocated a period of time. But I was so impressed with the suite of materials in the kit bag that we were given and the um you know the enthusiasm and the willingness to help from colleagues that I had never met before and people from all areas of the business was not only inspiring, it was actually just really humbling to be part of a team of people who really cared about these topics and wanted wanted to do something in their way to make a difference. So I loved that element. Um what I also loved was that everyone came that that we had such diversity in the team that we um we were able to collect. So we had people from the technical parts of our business, people who work in marketing communications and you we had a a professional storyteller from our Irish um office who wanted to to participate, a design experience lead in the US who was able to to add some value. So, we had so many different people representing different parts of our business and none of us are environmental experts by any stretch of the imagination, but we were all able to add value in our own way and that diverse kind of experience and thought process was really really valuable as well. One of the things that I think was a bit of a challenge was just how we managed that 24-hour um hack cycle. And so, So um uh some of our colleagues were trying to stay up late or get up early and keep a continuity of participation across the different um hemispheres and that worked quite well. But I think going forward I' I'd um I'd try and make that effort myself to to do those later night calls or those early morning calls. But it was um you know I think that the structure of the the program development was really effective. And it was, you know, part of an experience. You, yes, we were a smaller team, but we were also participating with hackers right across the globe. And I think we got um nearly 50,000 people within Microsoft participating in the global hack this year. I was also struck by just how many of the topic areas um that the hacks seem to to cover. Um I would say 90% of the those would have some kind of social impact um to them as well. And so you know the other kind of final point was this is really led by example and led by the highest parts of our business. So the the project that we worked on um was an executive challenge and we had executive challenges that tackled um areas such as accessibility, diversity and inclusion, sustainability, um you international development, all kinds of different topics. and to have our senior leaders really champion these topics and ask people from across the Microsoft world to you know volunteer their time to participate. It was just a a brilliant experience and you aside from anything else I've walked away meeting new people within Microsoft learning more about this topic area uh and also you know I I would hope developing my own um professional soft skills in order to to manage projects in a a finite time. So, I had a I had a wonderful um experience and we really hope that through this um contribution that we're able to move this this issue forward um with um with the CSRO. So, time will tell. So, Beth, you kind of alluded there in what you were saying. I mean, the size of it and the fact that it's global. Uh and for our listeners, I think this is part of our global the Microsoft global hackathon which is um it's a huge thing. I mean, as you said, sort of 50,000 people involved in these things. Um, and it's not just Microsoft because you had external people in there, but do you want to like I mean maybe helpful for our listeners to talk a bit about what the Microsoft global hackathon where does it come from? How how does it work? You what's what's how do we do it and how do other people maybe think about doing something like this. Beth, what do you what do you think are some of the things that would you need to put in place to have this kind of program? Yeah, it's it's a really good question, Lee. So, I think um prior So, I'm I'm a bit of a a longtime person at Microsoft. I Boomerang. So I started Micros working for Microsoft nearly 20 years ago um left um after about three or four years and then came back about 5 years ago. So um I I've seen different programs from time to time and I was a little bit ignorant as to what the garage is, but the garage is the initiative behind the scenes. And I know you know a bit more about the garage than than I certainly do, but I think what what they have perfected um as an internal offering is a a set of materials and a tried and tested process through which people can work together to solve problems. And that set of materials I think is invaluable. But what I also observed was um people who have volunteered to be um sort of hack mentors and people who've been through the process several times so that they can support new people into the the process. We also have a number of local hack judges. So um uh I think people who've again been through the process and can identify um you know the the the better projects or you know the most effective um programs hackathons have always you know I've never I've always wondered a little bit about the effectiveness but I think it is really effective to concentrate people's attention and time over a set period. Uh we all have other commitments and getting people to set aside some time, dedicate it and do it as a concentrated activity I think is actually really a valuable thing. So I' I'd suggest that that is um you know those are some of the elements that would be um success make make a program successful. You we again because I'm a Microsoft um boomerang this concept of growth mindset I I must admit when I first heard it I thought it sounded like an episode of Oprah Winfrey um that I' I'd hear about um you know self-development but it is true that people come to this process with a really open mind and ask lots of questions and try to learn as much as they can and that pro you know and and be willing to risk things and try things test things out from each other that rapid iteration and as a tool to encourage other people to adopt this innovative mindset. I I I wonder how effective that could be um if we're able to extend some of these tools um to our customers and partners. But Lee, I know you've been doing a bit of research on the garage. What have you found out from from that work? Yeah, look, it's a fascinating area and I'm I'm bit like you Beth. I'm a I've been here a long time and I've boomerang back in so I got a bit of history in this place and you know I think it's probably fair to say that a lot of people might categorize Microsoft as you know kind of the the old god of technology. We've been here a long time 40 plus years and they sort of see the stories from some of our fellow players in this cloud world has been the innovators and the people that started this and the garage is probably one of those interesting stories that differentiates that and kind of calls that into question. So um look it's for a long time Microsoft's actually had a whole series of these kind of incubator startup kind of rooms and spaces Um but up until the mid2 2000s it was largely productled. It was kind of like you know we're going to have an innovator to do product X or product Y. Um so in 2009 the garage got started and and there's some really good uh kind of commentary from that early days as to what they meant when they started what it was about. I love this one. Um was this idea that um essentially ideas are cheap and they're not valuable. Uh everyone's we got millions of ideas. Prototyping and proving is far more valuable. And so they had this basic the the very first office which was actually open in Redmond campus in 2009 just simply had this principle on the thing on the door that just said um all are welcome doers not talkers and it was this basic idea that you know you come in and you do uh there's no place here for business conversation this is about kind of this idea we want to build and create things and so I think that's kind of you know it got its starting point from that idea and then there was a whole bunch of um uh empowerment across business for people to just go and get involved. In fact, it did actually start out largely as an office thing. It was kind of our back uh research around the office platform. But of course, you know, 2009, early late 2000s, that all started to expand out to the point today where the garage has become this 24 locations around the world, physical places where Microsofties and customers and externals get together, think about just prototyping and solving problems. And it and it works on this sort of very common principle that's well known in the in the um design thinking mechanisms this the ideate process you know you you bring sort of that that passion for an idea uh to the room you build a vision around it you create a scenario for it you and you've you ever seen the sort of the um what do you call it's like the the think the uh what do you call this hourglass the hourglass approach you you start off really big and wide at the bottom with lots of ideas and things on the table you narrow it down to a scenario and an idea and a concept in the narrow and then you start going out to do the build and that's the second half for the thing and and it's quite simple. It works on that principle, but it just seems to work as a I think what keeps it working. I'm interested your feedback, Beth, because you did it virtually is, you know, the garage is about a place. It's about going to a space and having the the tools, the mechanisms, the whiteboards, the prototyping, you know, the the the soldering irons and bits and pieces to do things. How did it work in a virtual way? How do you collaborate and ideulate virtually? Oh, you it's a little bit hard to compare it to a physical experience having not really participated in a physical hackathon other than the fact that I would imagine the pizza um was lacking. Um I kind of associate hackathons with beer and pizza. So um uh you know I I still had a great experience. I didn't feel like it lacked anything necessarily that um a physical interaction would bring. Um, if anything, I felt like it it didn't matter. You we could all be effective in whichever environment we chose to be in in the moment. And I I guess that's the nature of hybrid work now, isn't it? That, you know, experiences are different, but they're not necessarily better or worse for being virtual or face to face. So, um, yeah, I I I would definitely think that um that you may be It's even more inclusive by being a virtual event that the fact that especially if you're having to do it late at night or early in the morning, you don't want to be That's true, isn't it? The the other thing I'd like to ask as well for both of you, I suppose, is you know sometimes these are too techy, right? Um the like when we do Microsoft hackathons or we think about hackathons or when our customers or people are listening to this now, you know, we thinking about hackathons. I did one piece of work with the University Technology of Sydney they've got a faculty of transdisiplinary learning or it's something like that it's got is amazing and they bring people from elsewhere in you know so they bring a lawyer in and a marketing person and somebody from you know all these kinds of different faculties because because so this this is my problem in my mind one is you need people to come in and think about some of these problems and really ideate properly rather than get the the the lens of technology only and jump to conclusions really quickly. But then you also got the issue which we have when we do protay which is our kind of university entrance thing of if people aren't in the domain of technology then they struggle to even think about what you can do you know so you've got almost you almost see the best of both worlds uh you know um what do you think about that lead because um you know there there's there's the people who know and there's the people who don't know and it's about trying to mingle everybody together, I suppose. Well, look, I mean, you're right because I think that's almost the history of the terminology. I mean, when Beth said then, dear pizza, there's this sort of a um I'll use the word, I don't mean it to be in a totally negative way, but there's a bit of a misogyn misogynistic uh pro kind of tech bro kind of thinking around that it is about men doing beyond pizza. But I think Beth, I mean, as you kind of said to me, I mean, you know, you sort of said yourself, it was such a multi-disiplinary group and you're not a technician. yourself. I know you've said that yourself, but you come into this and you can contribute because what you find figure out is that actually building taking ideas and then forming them into uh visions or strategy that can actually be executed takes more than the technology. You know, I think you had said you had a storyteller in the room and you've got, you know, kind of project managers um ad people who just simply advise and direct you in a particular way. It I think it just actually requires all sorts whereas historically and I'm going to I've got a brain tease a question people but historically you know that idea of the the the startup the startup has been about the technology in our industry at least. Yeah. And and to to take that to the next level a little bit well not next level but but when we thinking about things that we've done in schools for example we're younger kids you know where they might not have an idea of the domain or the social problems you know you go you could go to kids I remember when I used to teach and you say right we're going to solve a problem here with Excel or whatever and they'd struggle to come up with some social problems, you know, of how they, you know, because they haven't had, you know, aspects of business, they might not understand personal finance or whatever. So, um, when we've done the the AI for good hackathons, which now come out into Imagine Cup Junior, which we've done multiple, um, uh, sessions on previously in the podcast, the key to it has been to make sure we've got a curriculum that stands up to support people going through that. So, a hackathon isn't just going into a room and kind of going okay well let's ideulate on it. It's about a coming up with that problem like you said but also giving people techniques and tools to say well okay um what are the you know I think with the with the AI for good uh stuff we do with education change makers and the like you know it's very much around um let's think about the problem but let's think about the ethical implications of this let's think about the technologies that are involved let's talk about those technologies let's understand what GPS Bluetooth um and and all these other facial recognition and cognitive services are because without understanding those you can't you struggle to come up with uh ideas or think outside the box a little bit. So I think that structure when we do things with with younger kids and K12 and even in universities to certain extent we've got to scaffold a hackathon. So it's not just sitting around with a pizza. It's about kind of saying well you have to invest that time in in learning during that process and having that constant feedback. back and discussion around well that might work but what what about this or have we thought about this um you know that curriculum part's quite important Dan you mentioned the imag well sorry you mentioned the AI for good and I nearly gave you away there but you know AI AI for good led its way to something really important and I think to you know you're making that point around the fact that it's not always about the technology that big body of work the Imagine Cup that turned into Imagine Cup Junior that you you know very well you talk about that because that wasn't even about building things that was just about ideating on. That's correct. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that was very much I I went in and ran a session with the school last year actually. Um about that actually this year. What was my best the time going? Um but yeah, exactly. It was about them ideating. They didn't even have to touch computers. It was all about ideiating and coming up with those ideas, but also thinking about the implications of those ideas and and what what what impact that would have on society. And then but you'd still need to know about the technology. So there was still an element, you know, that that Cup junior you know and then we've got the full imagine cup which is for university students is is very much uh around ideiating and solutionering some of these projects going through the design thinking process like you mentioned earlier on Lee and then but but you still need that curriculum element to kind of understand well you know what what are these technologies that are available you know whether that's VR AR cloud AI um all of these tools and technologies because otherwise you can't come up with a a solution. You know, my my my final little anecdote is when I used I've mentioned this on the podcast multiple times when I used to teach kids mobile phone design. If you just say to kids, let's develop a mobile phone app that chances are if you don't give them any scaffolding, they come up with a game. When you give them scaffolding and say what what what are available? What services are available in a mobile phone? You know, text messaging, multimedia messaging, internet, GPS, location sensor, accelerometers. Suddenly they realize, you know, and and they come up with better ideas and solutions for the project they've done. So yeah, you know, I love the Imagine Cup Junior. That'll be opening up again next year um academic year in Australia and uh you know, in January, February time for for those people in the Northern Hemisphere as well. So that's exciting project to run with. So if I think about sort of rounding this not not to wrap things up, but to round it up into some like how do you how do you move forward? because it's amazing as Beth talked about amazing opportunity to to learn from it. It's it doesn't require to be a technician. Anybody can do it. Um but I think you know as the point you made there Danny you can't just sort of go okay let's have a hackathon and we'll all just go build something because you'll end up with you know the Homer Simpson car for example or or as you say mobile phone game best car. It's a great car. Um so you kind of need to build. So I think one of the learnings we're probably all agreeing on is that you know you need to give enough guidance to make sure there's a direction but not so much guidance as you tell people. what to do. Uh that's probably one of the key things. Anything else you think would be good learnings between the two of you for anyone thinking about setting up or running a hackathon or event of their own? But for K12 to do that first while bet's thinking there is easy for K12 because we've got an Australian kit and a New Zealand kit and a global kit that you can download from our Imagine Cup Junior website which has got lesson plans in there and it's got structure uh to it. So, you know, that gives you everything you need if you if you're teaching in K12. even in university level. Um but but that again though is is sort of limited. You sort of controlling it a bit more. I keen to think about like learn from you Beth and what you've you've experienced. Well, you know, I think like any good um problem you you've got to start with the problem first. So this isn't a a hack to um have technology find a solution or an application to be to be used, but to to to you start with the problem. Um, one thing that I was amazed to find out a couple of weeks ago is that we also have a global hackathon for our partner community around the sustainable development goals um the STGS which are leading up to 2030. So this is something you know again Microsoft is the organization that keeps giving in in terms of all these different programs and activities that we have underway but it's you there cannot get any more complex or ambitious goals than the sustainable development goals. So they are starting with a set of these these goals and they're saying demonstrate how technology can help the world move towards achieving these goals. So it's not technology for its own sake but it's technology that can be used to solve a particular problem. So for me I think that's where you start. You you take the the challenge and it needs to you need to be solving a particular problem because otherwise it's it's not it's not effective. Um but definitely I think the fact that you can use this as a as a an inclusive experience that welcomes people with lots of different experience levels, lots of different perspectives. You know, the lived experience of people who might have had this challenge before I think is really important. And it's a it's you know it's a stealth mission to actually teach people about technology as well. So you know you walk away learn having learned a bunch of new technology skills. as well as um you know problem solving skills but there's not a barrier to entry um that is imposed by a lack of tech skills which I think is um is the thing that makes it as inclusive as it has been for me. That's a really good point and um trying to capture all this in my head and there's one last thing I wanted to add to it but you know if we think about the fact then that it is um you know it's it's uh it takes all sorts and all different types of backgrounds. It's not just about tech people and and that it's it requires some direction but not so much direction that you kind of force an outcome or you create a you know pred predetermined outcome. And then the last thing I was thinking about Beth as you were talking then is it's also it's not something to do with it's not a tech industry thing. It's not like it seems to be a you know it's quite attached to it. We always think it's a tech thing but you can do financial services hacks, you could do age care hacks, you could be doing educ I mean everything has this idea that with enough people and in a room or in a space thinking through the problems and being free to bounce ideas you create that kind of um that opportunity. So it's it's also about trying to do something right, isn't it? So I in my role I'm working with CIOS all the time and I think there's just it's definitely a sea change now when people are implementing large problems and not implementing problems solutions to fit the problem. You know you you there are there are there's a big view to kind of get something quickly out of this. Now, you know, the agile development methodologies taken off quite a bit obviously over the last couple of years, but but people are now really want to try to find rather than see something and then kind of fix a bit like we doing from Microsoft with lots of our products, you know, we put things in and then uh see how it goes, you know, because rather get things out there um not necessarily, you know, testing everything, but just getting the solution to market quickly is really really important. Yeah, it's and what's interesting you said there, Dan, about you know the sort of the speed of it. I mean one of the one of the things that a hack hack mentality or or a growth mindset mentality or agile mentality or however you want to sort of frame and word it creates for you is speed of innovation. It actually lets better ideas bubble up and you have a sort of a self-norming process where as a group the best idea tends to bubble up to the top. So I think there's a lot to be said for it as a way to it's not to be frightened to be scared of I think there's a people get scared of this idea that you know bad ideas will persist or What's the one the uh I think it was in the UK uh that the naming of a boat they wanted to call it and they call boat face. You know when you give consensus to everybody you get silly answers. That's not it's a great name for a boat. We should have had it. But anyway, I wonder if uh if there's if it's too late to rename the bureau um through collective uh that collective very topical the What was your brain teaser earlier on Lee before we end? Ah well yes I forgot to ask you something, but I have a question for you. So, what do the following five companies have in common? Google, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, and Dell. I'll give you a minute to think about it, but the clue is in the entire episode. Wow. Anyone want to take a stab? Do we develop technology around? Oh, no. No. I still do hackathons, right? We're all largely tech companies. That is true unfortunately but that was the area of my knowledge. It's the reason why the garage is called the garage because all five of those companies were started in garages. A right that's amazing. I I actually do know Microsoft Australia was um operated out of somebody's garage for the first few years as well. So even when we were up in the US, we still kind of maintained that garage experience. But isn't that that's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there are actually non tech companies. I just happen to know the the tech ones cuz you know tech nerd. Um and and but if you ever get the chance I've done it I was over in the US and I I wanted to go to the Apple the house in in um Certino where Apple was started and you but you drive past it but it's actually someone's private house now. Of course there are police on that road and if you stop the police will stop you. So we drove past at slow speed as I could and my wife was driving and I lent out the car with my camera went on my phone actually and got a couple of pictures. So I uh I do have a picture of it. Can I can I ask one question? I know we've coming up to time now, Lee, but you mentioned in one of the last episodes you got a Surface Duo 2 and you put that on because you were going on a trip. How did you manage with that device in the end? Did you love it? Oh, I do have a Surface Duo 2 for those of you who don't know. Again, this is a really interesting one. Not a hack outcome, but a Microsoft Android device. You know, one of those things that probably came out of that kind of idea thinking where we go, yeah, hey, Why not? Um, look, it's a great device. Amazing for traveling. Um, small, portable, great experience, particularly for Teams calls and that kind of thing. You know, it's big enough for you to be able to actually use the keyboard. For me personally, I'm still jarring getting my head around the jar experience of moving from an Apple ecosystem to an Android ecosystem. But as a as a device, uh, 100% like perfect for traveling. Cool. That's good. Like a bit of an ending around the hot ending. Yeah. Well, thanks everybody today as great to learn about all the hackathons and uh you know, we put some uh notes in the show notes for everybody to read from, but uh thanks again Beth for your insights. I love that CSIro hack. That sounds phenomenal. Hopefully we see more of the the fruits of that labor actually coming out soon. And uh thanks again Lee as always for sharing your uh thoughts on the garage and the history of hacking. Yep. Pleasure. Brilliant. Thanks guys. Thanks guys.

In this episode Beth, Dan and Lee and joined by Jan Owen AO.   We discuss growing leadership from toads, skills and policy changes to drive future assessment.

Digital Pulse 2022 (acs.org.au)

“This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own.”

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 9

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Welcome to the AI podcast, Lee and Beth. How are you all? Excellent. Very well, thanks. Dan, what's everybody been up to in the last couple of weeks? I have been doing a lot actually. We we have a learning day today um at Microsoft. which is a dedicated learning day. I think we get once a month to promote and allow people to spend the time investing in their skills. So I have commandeered learning day this month for social value. So I've been putting together a whole pile of content. We've got an event coming up and we've got a cooking class. So we have an employee resource group um that is uh uh connects um Asian people from lots of different countries together. um it's a global employee resource group and they've just set up a chapter here in Australia and so they will be doing a cooking class for us something fun and different for learning day and then we're doing a um a fireside chat with Steven Warl. Uh so that has an event that has as an event become slightly bigger than Ben her. So I have been spending an awful lot of time producing and putting content together in the back end. Um and I'm hoping that it will be successful. So fingers crossed I cooking the cooking a bit later. Beth, I know it's going to be successful and I'm somewhat hurt that you didn't mention that I'm also on that event that you're doing. I will be speaking at it. I appreciate that there are a lot more important people than me, but yes. So I've been prepping my content for your session today as well, Beth. I'm all set to go. I I maybe I'm late to the game here, but I discovered something this morning that has changed my life looking at my screen. So I'm getting a little older. My eyes struggle with the bright light. of the screen all the time. I just turned on dark mode and oh my god, my world is literally the opposite of lit up. My world is so much better. I can read the emails without sitting there going like squinting at the screen. So dark mode is my if you haven't put dark mode on and you're over 50, put it on. It's amazing. I love it. Um I use dark mode as well. Well, so there you go. Under 50 as well then. I I have not I've not heard of dark mode, I've got to say, but has it got the same effect as soft focus? that teams does in terms of how your face is visually represented. No, it doesn't make you look any younger unfortunately. But no, it look honestly what it does, it takes out the contrast. And in all seriousness, I realized I was trying to read a document this morning. In fact, I was reading a document related to our our guest today. And I just realized that my eyes were sort of hurting because there's this focusing on this white background. And I thought I knew I knew dark mode was existed somewhere. So I switched it all on and it's just the contrasting is so much better. So that's my top tip is get dark mode. Also, I'm a little bit excited this morning because I had a Surface Duo 2 arrive for me today and I'm very excited to play with that because I'm going overseas for a couple of weeks soon and I'm looking to use it as my traveling device. So, it's I've got those. They're great. They're really, really good. I'm quite excited about it. So, they're really good. If you're an Android phone user, Surface 2 is amazing. If you're an Apple phone user, you can't pry Apple devices out to people's hands. But the Android device is phenomenal. Lee, you'll really enjoy When we finish recording this, I'm going to be going to play with it. So, I'll show you. Not that I'm excited. I'm very excited for this, too. But I'm also excited for that. And for me, this last week, I've been in previous week, last week, I was in Edutech, which is an education event in um Melbourne. So, I spent the week there with my 12,000 of my closest education colleagues um talking about uh what's new and what's on the ground in in education. So, that was been uh that's been really great fun as well. So, it's a com scenes back on. Um I suppose some people are, you know, are able to travel, some people unfortunately aren't and are being cautious about that, which is which is absolutely fair enough. But uh it was nice to see people in the flesh and you know and also talk to you know a lot of people in education myself where you know really understanding what's happening there because we see a lot on the news about teacher shortages and stress and workloads and you know it was very evident that there's a lot of um stress coming in into that entire sphere at the minute and uh you know there's a lot of pressure on teachers and and and education. So it was good to see people but it was also kind of sad to get the reality from the shop floors. It was so yeah um uh that's what I've been up to. So Beth, who's our guest today? Well, tell everybody. We are very spoiled today. We've got one of Australia's best uh social innovation experts and entrep social entrepreneurs. So I have been blessed to know Jan Owen for just just over 10 years now actually. Um I worked for a nonprofit back in 2010 in um uh the school for social entrepreneurs and Jan Owen was on the board of the school and so it was a real privilege to meet Jan um uh 12 years ago and uh we've kept in touch ever since. and I have followed her work for many many years as she has um led some exceptional organizations and always circling around education innovation and the focus on on young people. So I was thrilled when Jan um agreed to participate in the pod and over to you Jan. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you guys. So lovely to hear all of you and to hear your um things that you're working on at the moment which are diverse and uh and interesting very interesting to me now I'm like obsessed with dark mode and going to be distracted the whole change your life change your life Jana tell I know I know I'm very excited so um yeah it's great to be here and um as well as having a long association with Beth also obviously been doing bits and pieces of work with Microsoft and Beth has also aly represented Microsoft in some projects that we've been working on together as well so wonderful to be here on the pod. Well, Jan, um we will get to some of the work that you're leading um now in a little bit, but I'd like us to start with a little bit about you. Um so, I was reading your uh biography on LinkedIn and I had to um actually look up some of the words um uh specific, but you have had such an incredible life and impact in the world. Can you give us a little bit of a snapshot of who you are and and what gets you excited and you know what your personal passions are? I I think there's a lot there. That's right. And this usually is accompanied by a glass or bottle of wine. So, um just Oh, hold on. Let's Let's all go get one. I forgot to tell you. This is not um Yeah, that's right. I've got this is really coffee that I'm holding in my hand. Um, uh, well, Beth, I mean, I kind of like to talk about my story from a kind of a different I mean, obviously I've been really fortunate to do lots of different things and to have a really varied career and to um, have worked with and collaborated with ridiculously amazing people in Australia and around the world. But um, I don't know, I feel like sometimes it's good to remember where we all came from. And I was a a kid in what was really pretty much country Brisbane um in at the time and I um was also this kind of had three really strong influences that I think really impacted my entire career and my life. One was I was very entrepreneurial. I don't know why. I don't know where that came from. Um I um don't know much about my backstory. I was an adopted child. So everything that I did that was weird and different to everyone else in my family was obviously because of whatever I came from. And one of those things was I was very entrepreneurial. So, I was that 8-year-old kid who set up a kind of a lemonade stand at the end of their driveway um and sold lemonade to, you know, passing strangers and cars and so on. The only the only issue being that the end of that driveway was about uh 45 minutes out of Brisbane City uh where about two cars went by per day, one of those being my dad coming home to work. So, I saw exactly one glass of le homemade lemonade every day to my dad. Um, which was, you know, a lesson in in failing fast. Um, but I went on to just always work within my environment. So, this is a terrible story and you can't even really tell this story now, but I'm going to, where um, my dad worked at the University of Queensland. He was a very senior researcher and he helped invent sunscreen in Australia and all that kind of stuff. us kids were we we were the first trial of sunscreen. So all kinds of creams were put on us to test them and then we were put out in the sun to b um but I he also was was linked to the veterary um the veterary school and we had many my my father was a man of um hobbies and so at one point we had a hund beehives on our on our acorage that we lived on and um in Queensland at that time toads and Dan I don't know if you know about toads but toads are a big deal They basically sit outside beehives and eat them as they come out. So they're they're not they're not any beekeepers friends. So I um I with my three younger brothers um who are all very close in age to me, but I was clearly kind of the boss of them uh we used to catch the toads and give and sell them to the University of Queensland because of course that's what toads and rats and mice are what um you know veterary surgeons and and lots of other people actually kind of do experiments on which as I said is not not really the greatest story. Um, but clearly from a very early age and this is kind of the second theme of my life became clear very early because I was the CEO and salesperson of toads.in and my brothers did all the work. So I sent them out in the middle of the night with the torches with the um plastic containers to catch the toads which had to be live which is terrible. And then I would organize the drop off which was organizing my my transport company being my mother to drop the toads off at the university. So I was very much in a leadership position from a very young age. Um and then the third theme of my life I guess was a very strong sense of social um justice. I my parents helped set up Lifeline in Australia. Um and in those days when Lifeline was set up you took a call which was an emergency call. Um you put the phone down, you then got in your car and you drove to the emergency. There wasn't a third party. So, because we were very young as children, we were often sitting under the desk at the lifeline office when those calls were taken. And um I definitely, you know, was in the back of the car as my parents went into family homes where there were, you know, very intense domestic violence disputes coming happening and came out with mothers and children. Um or I watched my father literally talk people down from jumping off the sort of story bridge in Brisbane. Um many a time from a really young age and those people would then come and stay at our house because there were no real services. There were kind of churches were the ones who did that work and that was kind of it. So at any point in time I would wake up in the morning and I wouldn't be in my bed. There'd be some other person in my bed or there'd be a family on our lounge room floor. And the thing that really came through to me though in all that was not actually necessarily those stories which were pretty horrific. It was that actually number one community supports each other and number two that actually with support you can reset and get back on your feet and that's what happened sometimes the mothers would leave the children with us for a while and then they would get on their feet and come back and collect their children and kind of move on. So that ability to kind of gather community around people and also reset your life were big really strong things that actually impacted my view about social policy and how um we need to be working better as communities and society. So, a kind of a weird entrepreneurial streak, um a strong kind of leadership streak, and then a kind of strong social justice was kind of three things that have really framed my entire life and everything I've done. What an incredible story. I I think, you know, as a parent as well, you think a lot about the ways that you can shape your children. Um, and I have lots of conversations with with my daughter, but I think it's it's what you do as a person. in your own life that perhaps can have the the biggest impact. Um Jan, I know that uh you have had lots of different roles across lots of organizations, but I wanted to come to your time at the foundation for young Australians. So I just love the FYA. Um I know that you you're not there uh now, but you you led that organization for a long time. I'd love you to explore with us, you know, the the role that you see young people taking but then also some of the work that you were doing in regard to the future of work because I you that that work was happening in 2015. We hear a lot about it now but you were really one of the first organizations to be having that conversation. So is is that something you can share with us? Yeah. So um as you say I think we were looking at the kind of landscape um that was occurring for young people what was coming and what the sort of future trends were and we were kind of very involved in education actually Beth which we're still being involved in of course as you know but um we sort of started to look beyond the horizon to the future of work and what would young people be going towards and therefore what would education need to look like to better prepare them. And so our first report um the new work order as it was called kind of looked at these very very big and significant themes, you know, around globalization, automation, and so on, and started to call those out and talk about what they would mean and the shifts in the world of work, um, and how they would impact young people. And then, of course, inevitably, we did get back to education because how we were the pathways and things that we were doing to prepare young people. But it was very leading work. Um, it was also leading work because we went to the demand side. So, obviously, you know, in There's a lot of conversation internally about what should we be doing, but we did things that had not been done previously. For instance, we looked at 4.6 million job advertisements across Australia and used, you know, some of the first data analytics work around to say what were the key themes and ideas that were coming through job ads. Not what the jobs were and not what the job ads were promoting, but what were they looking for? What were employers looking for? So I really found that um that sort of work every time we went to that sort of demand side we were bringing new information, new data into this very big conversation and of course we were interested in what it meant for young people. As it turns out those things were important for everybody in the workforce to understand the shift in skills and capabilities. The looking for what used to be called soft skills which we kind of outlawed that term in FYA very early and called them enterprise skills or kind of you know world global skills. So that kind of work, you know, we also looked at the entire economy in one of our reports and looked at 12 million jobs and how they might fit into clusters and we came up with the seven clusters. Again, we were foreshadowing what has now come to pass, which was growth in care, growth in the green economy, growth in technology. We were calling those things out in 2016, 2017 as really key themes. So it was a very exciting time to be talking about the future. work. Bringing that back to what must we then do to more effectively engage and prepare and actually inspire young people about the future work rather than bringing in the story about automation's going to kill jobs and the robots are coming. We were like, "No, no, no. This is an inspiring time to be in the world of work." Hey, Jan, it's I I it's fascinating to hear you talk about this. I I had the chance to quickly read through the the new work mindset work that you'd also done. But like I I've got a 15-year-old son who's just in the cusp of doing his HSC. He's just done his HSC selections, you know, and he's heading into year 11 and I'm just reflecting on, you know, what you've written about and what you're saying, but then I see the world that he's living in, which is still very traditionally aligned to old educational norms. And he's picking these subjects and he's going to a careers adviser that's literally telling him, you know, you have the capacity, your your skills tell me you should be a and I kid you not, I think it's like a a a town planner or a software engineer. It was just this bizarre thing. So, what what's I mean, look, we should we'll get into the tech side of things and how tech's impacting this, but I'm really keen to get your view on is everything catching up with the thinking that you're having. Is the education system adapting to be to take advant to recognize that it's really the skills and as sorry, you said the word soft skills and I've talked about this a lot. Soft skills are really really hard, visceral, impactful, important skills. And I when I say to my son, he says, you know, what what what do you do in your job? And I say, well, I I talk to people. I engage in contact. I I build trust and I tr and these are soft things. I don't do anything hard and it, you know, it's all of these things. I'd love to get your thoughts on how how you might talk to a 15-year-old about these things and and how the education system's adapting to be ready for what you're describing. Well, how I would talk to It's all really good points, Lee, and I'm sort of sad to hear that story about your son, by the way, but it's the first time that I've I've heard that story either. Um, in fact, many, many, many times. So, we've still obviously the system is still lagging. Um, because everything that you said to your son about what you do, um, and how you do it, um, was exactly what our our reports showed. I mean, they said things like what employers want is people who can communicate, people who can collaborate, people who can um design, people who can think um across cultural divides, you know. All these things that were what we would call you know as I said used to be called like nice to haves are now absolutely core. It doesn't mean that you don't need technical skills of course. So nobody's saying that you shouldn't do reading and writing or you shouldn't look at an area of kind of a vertical that you're passionate and interested in but it does mean that we're trying to round out and have a much more holistic view. The other reason for this and one of the drivers is that the shelf life of an average university degrees down to about two years. So you know every employer is talking constantly about upskilling, reskilling or even more importantly as of right now learning in flow of work and life. Like how do you learn in the flow of work and life? So we've got to say to 15y olds things like guess what? Don't worry too much about one big decision or one big career because you're going to have seven jobs in five different industries across your lifetime. Now, good news, that doesn't mean 17 different degrees or courses. Just means that actually jobs and skills are more linked than we thought. So, what you want to focus on is what are the transferable skills and capabilities that you have. You know, are you really good at teamwork and collaboration? Are you really good at kind of entrepreneurial thinking? Develop those things. Develop those skills and capabilities and you will find that they are applicable. able across many many many jobs. That's what our research showed. Um, don't get hung up on the one. And by the way, once you get into one industry, and the care economy is a great one at the moment. So is the green economy. Once you get in there, it's like a lily pad. You can jump from job to job and including there's a bunch of lily pads that we don't know what those jobs are yet, but with thinking about skills and capabilities, you can move around. So, you know, there would be immediately there's about 30 jobs that are linked without you having to go back and do another degree. Because one of the things that happened in the 2000s is that young people got trapped in this idea that you had to keep literally getting more qualifications to get a job. And that was actually the biggest kind of con really around the world of young people, which had them ending up in massive debt, by the way, because they were told, "You've just got to keep studying. You're not prepared, so keep studying." Whereas actually what we need to do is work out what are those skills and capabilities? How do you recognize and articulate those much more clearly? And from 15ly, from your son's age, what is he doing in school, out of school, around school, with his friends, at home, with you? Um, which will get us to learning creates in a second, but we're trying to understand much more how you recognize and articulate the whole person. You're making an assumption there about a 15-year-old and having conversations with his father, of course, which is, you know, not something we have. Can I ask Can I ask a question? Can I ask a quick question as well? You know, reflecting back on the research you've done and now, you know, we've had a couple of conversations on this podcast in the last month about how the pandemic has changed adults experiences in work and uh you know the the needs of employers and employees now is changing. When you look back and reflect on some of that because it was amazing when you were articulating that that those things you so long ago are still so relevant now. Is there anything when you reflect back that that may or may not be relevant to this new pandemic era that we've just come out of or still in uh yeah still still in is it sort of endemic now isn't it? Um then I think that probably none of us predicted I mean you know none of us predicted that we would be using platforms in the way that we're using. So you know Microsoft teams or all those all the things um that we would have such access to the kind of technology that is available and I think that's definitely changed. We didn't we weren't really thinking about that back then at all um and how that would lead to better flexibility and better choices in terms of how you worked and studied. But I'm still you know to me I think we just still need to be a bit careful. You know there's still um 250,000 families in Australia. That's a lot by the way. 50,000 households that don't have secure Wi-Fi and internet. Um so you know there's a there's an equity issue here that is still although we may be moving quickly into the future um I think in Australia at least we would have a very strong view as a community that that should be everyone should be getting access to that that opportunity should be for all. So you know although we've seen some of these changes and maybe some leaps Dan I don't know that they are equitable yet Um, and I think we maybe would have said that back then as well around even some of the opportunities for young people in the future of work. How, you know, what are the barriers to those opportunities? Jan, I want to there's something you said when you were talking about that period of time, I think you said the early 2000s where young people were sort of encouraged to just overeducate, you know, and focus on this kind of continual learning process. And I think about the time that, you know, when I was in the sort of 80s and 90s when I was forming my career and it was all about get a job, get stability, get into one place and stay there. And we've gone through these phases and so I hear a lot about this phrase of being the gig economy phase. Love to get your thoughts on that word, the gig economy. Is it a real thing? Does it does it bely the true nature of what it is? Is it a good description of what our future looks like for for young people's careers? Yeah, I mean it's a really good one, Lee, isn't it? Because obviously also in technology, it's been a gig economy for quite a few decades for lots of people actually. So in fact, that was probably one of the leading areas of the gig economy that and hosp um which has always been a gig economy. So it's not a new idea. I think the reality though is that two things about the gig economy I think. Number one is that um it isn't all kind of sexy co-working spaces and lots of drinks on Friday afternoon, you know, with really cool people with whoever who only wear t-shirts. Um it's actually, you know, for a lot of people it's an insecure and very precarious The gig economy showed up in a very ugly way in the pandemic and we saw that through age care for instance where we discovered what lots of people knew but nobody talked about that people had many jobs and were having to go from job to job to job to make a job to make a whole job to get enough money to pay the rent. Now that might be okay in hospital but it definitely wasn't okay in age care as it turned out in the middle of a pandemic. So let's kind of get a reality and kind of take off the rosecolored glasses on the gig. economy, what it really is and what it really means. However, on the other hand, if you actually try if you are actually to get more conscious about the gig economy and understand how those gigs may uh help you build out that kind of skills and capabilities that you're looking for and um you are able to articulate those across different things, I think that's fine. So, you know, whenever I say to whenever I I go to schools and talk to 15y olds, I say, you know, when I grew up and where my parents grew up, there was like a one path. You chose your path. Um, there was often a sort of a ladder. It was quite relentless. You got up the top of the ladder if you're lucky. You know, after whatever 40 years, you got a gold pen and off you went, you know, in Australia, Dan, you put a caravan on the back of your car, drove around Australia, went home, retired, and died. Like, that was it. Good life. I've got no problem with the go around Australia caravan. I'm not I'm not dissing that. But now you know, and then you say to a 15-year-old, there's that or there's um what looks more like a jungle gym where you go up and down and in and out and you have a lot of different experiences, but you're on the jungle gym and so things are linked and joined up. And to a person, if I say, "Which one do you want?" Most of them go, "I'll go the jungle gym." I don't know if that's because they've just come out of primary school and it was all jungle gyms literally, but you know that idea that it's okay if you are if it's a jungle gym as long as you can link it as long as you can link things and I think we found this a lot where you know I if I've met one I've met a million baristas who have got two or three degrees now being a barista is not going to help them get get to the path of the kind of degree that they were whereas if they could even get um a casual or start to think of their first job in the area that they might be interested in then it will be a much smoother pathway for them. So, you know, all of this is about thinking about how do you utilize that idea um to create flexibility to create opportunity to link things. Um so, it's not that I want to, you know, kill the gig economy so much as I'm I don't want it to be precarious and insecure and I don't want it to be meaningless actually that, you know, so they're the things we're looking for. That's really insightful and that that whole point sorry Beth I mean that underlying in sort of insidious reality of it is something that often gets lost. So, it's great that you you bring that out. Sorry, Beth. No, I was just going to ask Jan. Um, you know, we'll get into Learning Creates in after this, I think, but I can you tell me I I think one thing that I've always admired about your work and about your process is the way that you involve people in the decision making and that through all of the work that you've championed over the years, you've actually put the the you know the client as it were. So young people with the foundation for young Australians, you put them in the driver's seat and you've empowered them to talk about what they want and you know what they're scared about and what can you tell us a little bit about the process that you you undertake to do this research where you're really empowering those people to be the you know the authors of their own destiny as it were. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean I think Beth as you know that and increasingly I think this is definitely a trend. You know the three things I talk about all the time when I do you know a lot of public speaking which I do and it doesn't matter which audience which I think is super interesting whether I'm talking to business or parents or students or teachers. I talk a lot about agency kind of meaning and purpose and mastery sort of three really really key themes. And so you know agency and that sense of autonomy that sense of being able to to um not only create your own kind of adventure but also contribute um and having the agency and the skills and the opportunity and capability to do that and also the confidence I think is incredibly important and I think they are linked to a sense of purpose and meaning I think you have a greater sense of agency if you have a sense of purpose and meaning in what you're doing you do feel more confident you are more committed you are more passionate um and then the old the age-old idea of mastery which it is an ancient idea A actually which I think we've lost because as much as we can say you know you can and my son has definitely done this he has crafted and launched a career on Tik Tok with tiny videos. Um so as much as you can learn very quickly and in snapshots the idea of actually uh deeper learning over time the idea which is a lost art of kind of finding a master or mistress um and having that kind of you know deep mentoring over time um Those things to me are all absolutely linked. You you will have much stronger agency if you have purpose and meaning and if you have mastery where you're gaining learning and understanding. And so that's that's always been my frame on this. It hasn't been like you should engage young people because it's a good thing to do. My frame has been agency, purpose, and meaning and mastery are all linked. They're all one story about who we are, what we believe in, and how we want to contribute to the world. So if you are thinking about how you give effect to that in every context whether it's a work context a school context a family context dare I say um because we learn most of these things in our family around the kitchen table um the the way that you give effect to that I think is how is how it it shows up in your life and so these things started for me when I was you know when I was a very very young mother and I was a young mother um and you know we we started when my children were three we would start, you know, we had family dinner around the table was locked and loaded. Um, at that time it was hard to get people off Minecraft, Dan. Um, but but pretty much it was, you know, let's have this time and every single night we would go around the table and say, what did we see and learn and hear today? Um, and what what made me what happened that made me think differently about something? So that inquiry kind of open curious mindset. Um, and our kids still did it. You know, we also had once a year, which we used to do on Australia Day, was just kind of the day where there was everyone had a shared kind of public holiday, but um you know, we would have a day where we planned and again from when my kids were three, we would plan the year ahead. It was always around three things like school and work, kind of learning and personal development, and then kind of family. And we had this sort of trifecta going all the time where you would plan against each of those things. And then we'd have a midyear review and then we come back. So, Sounds a bit like a business. It wasn't. It was much more fun than that. But you know, we just these ways of thinking have just always been part of whether I was at create Beth where you know I with with young people in care we set up the first consumer body of young people in out of home care and foster care across the country. So and you know I was one of those kids. So it's just how do you how do you bring that just way of thinking into everything your family life your work life your um just your relationships. And so it's very it's it's not something that I kind of impose. It's just a way of working and being in the world. Jan, can I ask you a question on something you brought up there because you were describing this sounds like a seemingly perfectly fam perfect family life of sitting around the table having that conversation which I aspire to. But I wonder what your view is. You know, I look at kids today who whose lives revolve around technology in the same way that as in the 80s probably revolved around movies and music and to the same extent our parents hated that as we probably now hate the way our kids live on technology but it's a real delicate balance because in some ways it's destroying their like you know kids don't read like they used to do they don't learn in the same way they learn in microlearning on YouTube and other things but they're also developing this capability to exist in the world that we can't foresee yet because I'm old and they're young and they're going to do things that I don't get what's your view on technology and kids and how it's helping shape them to be ready for that world of work of the future. Yeah. I mean my my view on technology is exactly the same view that probably it must have happened when um you know washing machines were introduced um in the industrial revolution and all the maids and laundry people in the world went on strike and you've got these pictures in London and the UK where they were you know there were hordes of them going down the down the road and of course it was um stabilizing. Of course, it did change the way people worked. Of course, some people, you know, had to upskill and reskill to use a washing machine. And yes, it became also though um it democratized that whole, you know, we all started doing our own washing instead of relying on other people to do it. And I honestly I think this I think about these I think we've got to have a a backwards, forwards, and a forwards future view about all of this. Um I do believe that technology is just another one of those. Um, Lee and I do think it is really ubiquitous obviously. I think it is clearly incredibly important, an incredibly important tool and it has absolutely revolutionized our lives and will continue to and including democratize many things from education to work to access to work. Um, a million reasons, banking, insurance, all the things that technology can give particularly people in developing econ economies, you know, the ability to leapfrog a whole lot of um poor conditions to get to a better place. And I also understand that on the flip side, it is also um incredibly um I don't want to use the harm the word harmful, but it's incredibly challenging in some of the ways that it's used. So, yes, I do think that um social media is really complex and also extremely um destructive. ive for some young people and children also adults. Um so I just you know I don't think we can dump technology all in one as you guys know way better than me because you're Microsoft. I think we just need to think very carefully about um where do we need to I think regulate. You know there's a lot of conversation about the metaverse at the moment and I would love us not to end up with the Silicon Valley of the metaverse. I would love the metaverse to be much more democratize. I'd love government to get involved much sooner. Um because not everybody is a Bill Gates as we know and has a kind of altruistic worldview. Um so I do feel like there is a much bigger conversation about how does the community and the society and the citizens want to use the technology and how might we make collective decisions rather than a bunch of decisions by some guys out of Silicon value about how we're going to use technology. And I do think with new platforms, we need to really push and um argue and also hold the line that we need to have a much much more democratized um view about this and conversation about this and government must must must step up and not wait for things to happen and then try to melate the you know the the difficulties. So I went from the kind of your sons and our children's to kind of the the policy environment there. Sorry, but I do think it is a policy conversation actually and yes it does impact our children. Yeah, I totally agree there and and you know as as parents or you know people who who work with kids you know regularly you know you get caught in conversations and headlines a lot and and sometimes you know it's the policy that needs to change and we need to think about this at a bigger bigger picture. You know I got caught up last uh last week in in a school kind of WhatsApp community around you know, where the mobile phones should be banned. You know, this is the a perennial thing that happens, doesn't it? When uh when when there's a school that removes mobile phones and it's so nuanced a lot of the research and things that happens in there. So, yeah, I think that, you know, and then the and the work you've done in the in the past has really resonated a lot and and the work you're continuing to do now. So, maybe you can give us a bit of a insight, Jan, on to learning creates the the the work you're doing now and and what the ambitions are for the learning creates program. Yeah. So that the learning creates work came out of all the FYA work. Um so we sort of set up Learning Crates while I was still at FYA was sort of a a kind of a legacy project around that sort of education like we're going to have to yes we can talk about the future work but we're going to have to work on education learning. Um and so the and all the themes that we already had I think came together but what we decided to do was um focus focus in on a particular area that we thought might have the biggest impact and that was if you could change the way that we assessed what young people know and can do that would have the biggest impact on the system. So right now in Australia you know we have this magical thing called ATR which is like the kind of be all and endor of um of high school um and you know you kind of live and die on that and of course when you get into the research you don't live and die on ATR within 12 months of having finished your HAR, nobody cares, nobody asks you about it. Um, and yet you've kind of invested a whole lot of time, effort, and processes and systems in something that actually may not be fit for purpose anymore and may not serve us. When also ATR, like Nat plan, by the way, was never really meant to be a big league table. We weren't meant to be doing the the rugby here or the AFL here. It was meant to be just ways that people could track how young people were going, including young people and parents and schools themselves. So, things have kind of got blown to be bigger than they really are. But our so we've worked for the last two years on a project that started to look at um how could we have a new assessment and recognition system that was valid um that was trusted and that recognized all that young people can do not just an academic record um at the end of year at the end of senior secondary um and so that's been a fantastic experiment. We had a big collaboration consortium around that including Microsoft has been part of that. We've worked very closely with the University of Melbourne and a whole bunch of other people. But we did it a bit differently as as Beth knows which is what she sort of intimated in how we do things which was we set about kind of a challenge question about how might we develop this recognition system and we decided to go sort of from the ground up. So rather than sort of from the top down let's just go and lobby ministers we said let's go and talk to people in communities and schools in communities and let's pro type some different ways that this might be done. So we use code design and human- centered design methodology um partnered really closely with Price Waterhouse Coopers and the difference um the impact assembly sorry there and started to work in communities and with teachers and students and um young people that weren't students who were students and industry and start to say what might it look like if we had a different system what might that look like. So right now we've got a fantastic project going in central Queensland with um some schools around um a first nations project which is looking at again how does first nations knowledge and experience and expertise and ways of learning get better integrated into particularly for um young aberiginal and toristra islander young people how does that get represented in their representation of themselves so if you are you know right now if you are a young person in many um schools. If you're a originalinal touristra islander and you went to for instance go and do something that was culturally important in your community, it might be as simple as going and doing acknowledgement in a country in another part of your suburb or at another organization. You would be marked absent from school. Now, that doesn't seem right, does it? That something that you're doing which is culturally appropriate and a massive contribution to your community and to your culture is not understood and articulated as oh no that's actually part of your learning from your from a cultural perspective. Um equally if a young person um is looking after a family member who has a disability or a mental health issue or um or is doing something in their community and they're not at school for a particular day. Why don't we better understand what they know and can do as a result of being a carer? Why isn't that articulated into their their whole story about themselves? So we'll see a lot of tools emerging from learner profiles to career portfolios. There's a bunch of words flying around. You probably heard them at edtech, Dan. Um, but we'll start to hone in on number one, what might a what I call a beyond the ATAR era look like in Australia? And by the way, this is a global conversation. So, what does it look like to get beyond this kind of one narrow lens on a person at that sort of senior secondary level and then how might we articulate it? How will we assess it? How will we make sure that you for instance as an employer trust a sort of an an assessment or or a portfolio or a a profile that somebody comes to you with that says this is what I know and can do. Yes, it's got academic records in it but it's got all these other things and I want to show you who I am as a whole person even as a 16 17 year old. That's the work. Long way to go. We're just at the beginning. Um, but the work is, you know, very very much involves young people at the center driving this. Um, but also communities including First Nations communities and also industry partners like Microsoft are incredibly important to test and validate um, this work. Um, and of course we are working with governments along the way. Um, and uh, South Australia where some of you are and Beth is is one of the leaders in this in the country. So we're definitely working with governments and engage with governments and policy makers. But we wanted to see what it looked like to design from the ground up some of the solutions or ideas. I love that be beyond thinking because it is such a pivotal moment and an emotional strain on young people. Um let's set aside the energy and effort they have to put in and that and I mean I'm just looking and it happens to be this week as you probably would know in the UK it's their uh university announcement week. So and I'm seeing all this stuff in Twitter about parents dealing with kids who didn't quite get a score and so this is sort of a life destroying moment and of course it isn't but you know but that's the that's the world we built and so I think it's just amazing what you've thought about uh Janet um you the way you're thinking about this problem is inspiring so thank you and I think Lee you know the myth busting is really important like for instance people don't know that 48% of students who go to universities didn't go with the so who knew like straight up like that's half students didn't aren't entering with an ATAR. So, like it's already kind of a bit, you know, of a of a legacy piece. Yeah. When I was when I was doing um in charge of like the sixth form education in the UK when I was teaching, we used to do like a record of achievement uh and and it was like a just a document that I'd made up in publisher or whatever at the time. And it was they they'd go to their lessons, but then they'd have to do community service and other stuff. So, a we'd fill their time in in the the timetable. So, they weren't just going off um and and doing other things. But if they genuinely cared about something in the community, like some would work in old people's homes, some would work in the local vet, some are working already. A lot actually, in fact, were working already. So, it's a good opportunity for them to fill that personal record in. It was really helpful then when you they were writing CVs because kids when they write CVs these days, they'll kind of sit there and go, "These are my qualifications." And the qualitative stuff that they do are often forgotten. They they don't realize that actually the skills they've learned, you know, washing dishes in the local Italian restaurant or whatever are really beneficial for for the jobs of the future. So, it's great that you you're working on that. I I really hope that the governments and things can start to really embed that in in curriculum and policy because it always seems that exactly like you said that we need this there's like an old mechanism in curriculum and assessment and design and university entrance that needs to be broken and nobody has ever cracked that before. That's right. There's a lot of work to do and um I think yeah I I I think if we can bust some myths and also if I think we can um get that recognition Dan because as you say I think everybody's always had these stories but they were kind of bolt-ons or nice to have extras. It's about how we were talking about soft skills Lee. So now we're saying no no no you can actually assess the skills and capabilities that that of those things and that really changes the game because that then does make it very valid and a trusted kind of source if we can have it assessed. So we're kind of yes all the things is about you know taking all of those to the next level um is a very exciting time and again this is global work this is not just an Australian story this is a global story so um hopefully it means that over time young people and children and young people have a much better um ability to feel like they do have agency in their in their education learning in their life and as I said linking that to their sort of purpose and meaning about even their learning not that I was a um you know captive of the education system but it was a genuine part of my life that was sort of had meaning and purpose and enabled me to also explore and be curious about all the things I was interested at that time and then you know as I said that leads to that sense of the desire for mastery and for deep learning um and to find people that you can learn with and grow with. I I think listening to you, Jan, one of the things that occurs to me with my own daughter is to get her to learn to love learning because, you know, if if nothing else, we are all going to need to become lifelong learners. Um I know we've run out of time, Jan. I feel like I could listen and talk to you for for a lot longer. I do hope that we um get to see the um widespread adoption cloning technology because I I'd like to nominate you to be cloned several times over, Jan. I think we need about 600 more of you. Um, you do the most incredible work and you continue to inspire all of us. Thank you so much for everything that you do and thank you so much for joining us on the pod. Absolutely. Thank you. It's been fantastic. Thank you guys and good luck with your brilliant work as well. Um, really, really, really powerful and we love working with you. So, thank you. Thanks, Jen. Thanks,

In this episode, Dan is joined by the amazing Emaan Gohar and Jannet Gohar, technical interns at Microsoft. We explore the pathways into tech and their learnings so far.  

• Schools outreach programs | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) 
• U@Uni Academy | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) 
• Women in Engineering and IT Cooperative Scholarship | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) 

“This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own.”

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 8

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hi everybody, welcome to the AI podcast. Today we're going to be doing our second part of hiring technology series and today we've got two special guests. We got Janet and Iman Goha who are interns interning at Microsoft and they've got some great stories to tell. So welcome both. Thank you Dan and hello to you too. Yes, I can't wait to can't wait to hear from you guys. So, so maybe at the beginning today, so to give you some context, we talked in the last uh podcast episode about hiring in technology and Beth Lee and I talked about, you know, the ways is different now after COVID, the expectations of people in jobs, even not just in tech, but people kind of thinking about hybrid work and and I suppose when you're interning at company, you know, you guys are at Microsoft at the minute, but but Normally when we looking at people who are interning, they obviously also um spend some time kind of in uni as well. And it always like fascinates me the amount of dedication you have. You're kind of in uni and then you're in in a work environment with quite a lot of responsibilities. And I always take my hat off to you guys. So maybe what we could do is s think about um uh just you tell us your story about kind of what you're studying and and kind of how you've come into the the roles you're in and why you've chosen tech. So maybe pass to Janet first to give give us your kind of story there. Yeah, thank you so much Dan for having us on here and um just to give a bit of introduction about myself. My name is Janet Go and I'm actually studying a bachelor of engineering majoring in software at UTS and um you know I'm in my final year. It's exciting. I'm going to graduate soon. Um a little bit nervous because I think getting ready for the real world is also a bit nerve-wracking. So um yeah, it's really interesting to see how or have grown since first year of uni till my last year of uni and getting two years kind of taken away from me after that because of co. So it's been an interesting ride so far. I'm currently actually interning as a customer engineer um at Microsoft which has been an amazing past couple of months and it's truly amazing to see how much I've grown just the past couple of months here and how supportive everyone's been. And I think aside from all work talk um you know a bit about just kind of what I do outside all this is that I really enjoy mentoring high school students and high school students coming from underrepresented communities. I'm very much passionate about that and I think we truly need more representation from underrepresented communities to give children and students an understanding that you know if I can do it and if I can overcome these adversities so can you. And I very much kind of go in high schools uh school you know primary schools deliver workshops um with my colleagues with my you know um peers and um kind of try to inspire students and see how their eyes ladder up when they get their robots working and you know running and it's really amazing to see how much of an influence that you can have just by going in and being a representation. So um so you do that as part of uni sorry to interrupt you but do you do that as part of uni stuff as well or do you have like programs you do that and engage uni or is that via your your time at Microsoft or a bit of both? So a bit of both actually. So Microsoft has two programs. So uh code protege and um Microsoft Student Accelerator. Um but I've been a lot more involved with uni um prior to Microsoft. So um they have heaps of different programs. So they've got like outreach programs, they've got the you uni academy um and you know they get a lot of um high schools and schools that are um coming from underrepresented community and lower socioeconomic communities to kind of come in and um see how much um representation there is at uni and how they can be really influenced with the skills that they have and use those skills to um basically involve as individuals. So it's truly amazing how so many people out here are doing so much for students uh especially coming under represent communities. Yeah, that's such a such an amazing story to go from you the UTS engineering side and then into the interning and then at the same time trying to fulfill your own desires to kind of support you know and represented uh areas in and in honesty areas but but people from various backgrounds whether it's women and people from different socioeconomic backgrounds that's like phenomenal and Iman from your point of view how was your journey has your journey been similar or or different yeah thanks Dan for asking that and I think my journey has been very different in the sense where um yeah we are sisters but we we've had different kind of support we have different kind of journeys and it's for me myself I I'm studying software engineering and I'm in my final fourth year as well but my my journey has been very more much more like a roller coaster. Um I graduated high school in 2018 and um and I know Dan we discussed this before. I studied off as um an optometrist before and did a year of that. Absolutely did not like it. Then I moved to do law and science and then I'm like is this really it for me? But you know um Dan like this is what best about having you know like friend circles or just people you know that are involved in tech or engineering that you get to see the fun bits that they're doing. And I saw that in my sister and I was involved in quite a few societies and programs like her and um had a lot of discussions about tech. So I got into engineering and I haven't looked back since then and um I've been doing that for the past few years and I just enjoy what I do and when I got the opportunity to just browse around on the internet one day um bored out of my mind and I saw Microsoft and applied here I I get to do amazing stuff here as an ATS intern and I'm in education space with you. So it's it's crazy how life works, right? So how did that how did that processor been? So when you were in your third year of uni, uh you were kind of looking uh online and saw internships. Is that is that what happened for both of you? Did you both see the internship stuff light up? And had you looked at internships before? For myself, this was actually one of my first big internships. So I took a big jump off um like you know, leap of faith and I saw LinkedIn one day and I saw people working at Microsoft. Um I looked into the jobs and I saw internships and I just clicked and it was a dodgy in the sense that should I go for it or should I not going to accept me then I'm going to accept him but you know what Dan I went for it I 100% I went for it and I applied my way through a LinkedIn and um now I am here yeah that that is so cool John was a similar experience for you and were you because you you obviously come from that um purist point of view where it was something you were going to focus on um was was that a similar experience for you actually a very much different experience from Iman and yeah and um so when I applied to engineering. I very much didn't have much support from my parents and my parents wanted me to do something within the medical field being migrant parents. Um that was something that they very much wanted me to do and um I remember the first couple of years I when I did engineering I could tell that you know they weren't really okay with the idea of me doing engineering. One of the main reasons is because um you know it's it's very much male-dominated and you know because there's a lack of female representation not just that I do come from a Muslim background and do wear hijab so a headscarf and um they just didn't they very much wanted to protect me from the discrimination that I would face if I was to kind of pursue a career in this field and you know I I applied I got in and it was a very much shock to them because they thought I was going to do pharmacy and I remember leading them on over the past couple of years in high school like I'm going to do pharmacy and then when I got into engineering they were so shocked and um two weeks after I uh accepted my degree I got a call from the uni saying that you know you can apply to this scholar ship and within the scholarship it was like a four-year scholarship that I'd gotten and it was a program where we'd get three industry placements and um over the four years I would be working within the industry. So one three month and two six month internships I'd gotten over the um four years of my degree and when I'd uh interviewed I got in it was so it was so surreal because I still still did not believe that I'd gotten in after signing my contract and um I think for me one of the biggest things is that when you come from like a school where you know a you didn't really much h you didn't have support from your teachers and you were very much undermined with your capabilities um you weren't supported with the skills that you had um when you come from very much that your your insecurities kind of go in the way of like oh wow like I actually got in and I still to this day don't believe that you know I was able to do all this throughout the past couple of years of my career and um I remember distinctly last year so it was my final internship my program and um one of my mentors was like to me at my internship he's like you know you should apply to other internships you know um get a different experience get an experience get an experience on how to um be interviewed in the industry and other organizations and I applied I applied to a couple of internships and I ended up applying to Microsoft I'm like okay look if I don't get in I don't get in if I apply but I won't get in if I don't apply so ended up applying got a very dodgy email dodgy email I remember because I know Iman also died and I remember 2:00 a.m. in the morning going to her bedroom. I'm like, "Eiman, did you get the email?" And then she's just like half dozing off and she's like, "I have no idea." So the next morning I had to go in again cuz she had no idea I came into a room. Um, and it's been history since then. And I think, you know, a lot of people will say would have very much similar experiences because we're siblings, but we both have a completely different journey with how we've grown over the past couple of years. So that's been my experience. Am Yeah, I just wanted to add in her bit and I think this is a lot of um these stories that we hear not many people tend to relate to them and I like talking about our stories my sisters and mine because my story was different to hers. I was third year university still yet to get experience just changed into my third course and I thought that I wouldn't be able to get in into any industry experiences and I used to compare myself to other people and say they already been to three industry placements they have so much experience up there but I had the passion and drive and I've got bit of experience in other places, but like you sometimes you when you match your stories and you match your experience and expertise, you let yourself down and your insecurities just grow and grow and grow. But I think applying to Microsoft and taking that jump, I feel like everyone should regardless of what their background is and what their story is. Oh, it's it's phenomenal to hear your stories there. And and how do you find, you know, that that entire process of hiring things like that, you know, did you did you um what was your what was your thoughts? reflect on, you know, going into that process I when when you know you jumped in with those other other people and you had to do some tasks. Can you reflect back on that and how did I feel? You know, I remember those there was around um three two rounds and I remember them as fresh as it can be really because it's been the most impactful interviews and conversations I've had. You know, Dan, the first interview we had was like um the hiring process gets really sometimes really tough in the sense you have your ups and lows. You doubt what you say. You always double think that am I going to get in the next round? Am I going to get um forward or no? And when you get you have the fear of rejection as well. If I get rejected, I'm not going to get in place anywhere else. So those are the thoughts that run your mind since the very beginning. Even when you get an email and say, "Hey, we want to push you on to the next round." And when you compare with other technical interviews in other industries, very similar. But with Microsoft here, when we when I did get in and our one of the first rounds we had was group interviews. Dan, sometimes a lot of people have the perception that you want to be really competitive. You want to be out there. You want to show yourself the most attractive to the recruiters. That's good. That's really good. But no, what I realized is I made the best of friends in those group interviews. We connected later on LinkedIn. We had lots of chats about tech. And we collaborated so well in the less amount of time frame because we had so much passion for technology. They all had similar stories. So while we were doing our bits and bits of tasks and all we were all talking about why we got here and what we want to get out of this. So it's sometimes you expect a list of um experiences and stories from this in these type of situations. So in our when you move on to the later rounds um and still having those thoughts am I going to get in? I should have done this. Was it what I did? Was it enough? Um when you go into the group interviews and we spoke to the hiring managers I know Dan you you interviewed me right we had a really good conversation about diversity inclusion. The thing is And um if you compare it to other technical interviews and other um places that I um interviewed at, Microsoft was the one hiring process where they gave me the voice and they gave me the platform to talk about myself, my passions and what I like and not like. It wasn't more about what we want to see in you. It was more about what I get out of you. So that's that's what I connected the best with and it's why I remember it saw as fresh. So what Janet, was it a similar experience for you or different? Um very much a similar experience I think throughout the hiring process. And for me it's also I think the two different um personality traits between me and Iman is I'm very like you will put me in a social setting and I will talk to anyone there even if I have I don't know anyone there and um the whole recruitment process. So um alongside Microsoft I was actually being interviewed for other um internships too and I think a key difference at Microsoft he was that Microsoft is very much focused on empowering individuals and empowering their employees. and very much on how you can grow at this organization and I did not see that in other places and I remember distinctly asking um a few questions on diversity and it wasn't those regurgitated responses on what HR wants you to um do it was very much authentic to itself and when having those conversations I felt at calm and at peace that knowing that if I do get in and if I do if the recruiters and the hiring managers do see me capable of being in this internship I won't um be worried that you know I can't be my authentic self and truly Dan this is probably one of the first times um when I'm like you know interning and working in an organization where I can be who I am as an individual and as I mentioned this already is that I do come from I do I am Muslim and um I am able to openly talk about being Muslim and talk about the practices that I um do. So Ramadan had come up a couple of months ago and my manager had told me like you know write a post about what Ramadan learn is and talk about what it is and how you grow as an individual. And till this day, she constantly says that, you know, it was such a well-ritten response and I learned so much from that key piece. And I never had anyone say that to me and I just truly feel very comfortable in my own skin here. And the whole recruitment process, I remember it was just very much like a conversation, you know, talking to them and I was just like how this podcast is. So I think if you bring your authentic self onto the table, that's what very much matters is people see through that and people will see whether you're true to yourself and understand who you are as an individual. Yeah, absolutely. And and from from the other side of the table when you look into those things, you know, all everybody thinks I with technology there's this myth about, you know, the way that certain companies, you know, bring people on and and ask certain questions and try to ask things that really tricky to answer and things. But actually, like the entire process, which I've been involved in anyway, is is all about trying to set activities so you can, you know, see what people are like genuinely. And it's not really trying to trip anybody up. It's trying to give you enough scenarios and enough space to be your authentic self. So you can come to the interview and you can say, "This is what I do care about and this is why I do want to work for company X." And um and and you know, I I know Iman's your your your interview, it went so well because you can understand what you're passionate about. You know, it was diversity, inclusion, and then you can pivot it around. Well, how is how how are you going to use Microsoft to to forward that um kind of imperative that you wanted to do? How you exactly like you said, how can you make Microsoft um you know, work for you, you know, as well as you work for Microsoft and drive those things. But, you know, I think um uh when you when you think back to it and if you're giving people advice, I suppose about applying for internships and things, what would you you kind of tell people I suppose in your situations now imam you know Dan um I got the opportunity to go to take New South Wales last week with the yeah it was absolutely crazy and so good because they were all my age and they've been all in similar experiences and boats but one key thing I took out of it there was this one young girl she came up to me and she asked me about my experience after our chat and she also changed a lot of courses to get into TA and she's like and she's like um Iman I think I'm a failure I I think I what I did wasn't enough. Um I'm 21 years of age. I don't everyone is so ahead of me. And I look at her in the eye and I'm like I was in your boat and I thought the same as well. But the thing is that no one gives us the reassurance that one we're not failures. Two, we've got a whole life planned out. And three, when we have those thoughts in our head, we absolutely ignore the fact that we need to apply to these tech companies or apply to technology areas where you can actually give your input you're passionate about. And I told her, I'm like, "Regardless of what you're thinking, that's what your environment is making you feel, but go ahead, apply. Apply to wherever you feel like you should go and be open about having these conversations because, you know, Dan, a lot of a lot of these young people and a lot of early careers feel like that." And also post pandemic, the pandemic has absolutely ruined our mental health state in the sense where we constantly ask ourel that I'm not enough. I'm not enough. I haven't done enough, I've been to uni, I'm all over the place. But This is something and they have so much passion and drive when you break all these layers. They're so passionate about technology and what in engineering as well and a lot of a lot of young people are like this and I keep I keep having these conversations and I had another one from um another school in outreach when I went at UTS and they they all they all think they're not enough and I just want to tell them to put yourself out there and apply to these areas because we want people like you that are passionate and there's room for growth and it's never too late. Yeah. It's interesting to say that COVID lens on it as well because um Janet I suppose you've seen a couple of different internships during your time going through as well. So like how's that you know going to those different places and and also being affected by COVID in those times as well and and I think confidence um what would your advice be I suppose uh what are your thoughts on that um in terms of interviewing Dan? Yeah and and and the different internships I suppose is a very question sorry. Oh for sure. No. No, all good. And um I I'll start with the internships and beginning in understanding what it was like prior to co and now during co and I think one of the biggest things is that um prior to co I remember just sitting there in a room when meetings would happen never giving my input in because I would feel very much intimidated by the people around me. Um but now that um and and there's always you know pros and cons to every situation but I think one of the positives towards being able to work online and being able to work hybrid is that you know you don't get intimidated by a group of people that are sitting in front of you. You're online on teams and you can give that input in and I truly think that's beautiful because I think I've been a lot more outspoken after um not conducting meetings in a group of in a meeting room and um it I I truly think that's amazing and I've very much um changed from being that quiet intern in a room to be able to you know give my input in and um talk about my own opinions and have that discussion with other group members there. Um I do believe that sometimes it can be really difficult to you know as Iman also mentioned is that our mental health is really important and with co it's been really difficult um being able to maintain relationships and I think prior to co we'll be able to maintain um relationships as interns and as grads and being able to have that connection there because there's a relatability you know we're on the same boat but because we're now we're online it's a lot more difficult to keep that maintenance of that relationship and um how do we kind of get out of that kind of hybrid learning and be able to have a relationship with other EIC's early inquiries and um I think that's truly important and there there are a couple of things that you know um we can tackle here but those are a few highlights I think from co um the interview thing so so like that's really interesting perspective on then from all your your understanding of that so what would your uh thoughts be if you were giving somebody some advice about going through that process yourself for sure and you know one thing I'd say is be reflective of who you are and each stage um of your life where you're at. You know, if you're in your early 20s, be reflective of who you are um and understand what makes you you. And as cliche as that sounds, being your authentic self and being able to talk about the adversities um is really important. Being able to talk about how you got where you are today because I can say I go to a random person and say, "Oh, I'm an um I'm an internet Microsoft, but you know, I I had a you know, a lot of adversities I had to face before I can kind of intern here at Microsoft and very much um adversities that sometimes I'm not comfortable talking um to people about but when I mentor high school students um that's what I discuss with them talked talking to them about you know I didn't get here because I just applied and got here I had to do all these things you know I faced crippling imposter syndrome I wanted to also get the validation of my parents um you know um maintain my marks at uni there are a lot of things that were there that really contributed towards where I am today. And being your authentic self and talking about those adversities is really important because that is where um we bring in perspective. Our experiences make us bring in perspective and um you know that's where diversity and inclusivity we can talk about all this um but that's one thing that I would say be reflective of who you are and then whilst you're reflecting understand what you can bring into an interview process um but in from like a tech standpoint Um I would say especially when you're as an intern don't be shy to say oh you're not aware or you don't you don't have much information um on for example if it's about security and you don't know much about security you can say that to your interviewer but just say also that you know I'm willing to go in and upskill myself in that area um and that's what tech tech you know the tech field is about you can upskill yourself on the job and don't be shy to say that because that also shows that you know you know you've got a gap and you know where to fill that gap up. Totally. Yeah, that's that's great. There's some good really good advice there and and like I loved listening to your stories and I think our final questions to wrap up today would be what everybody's probably asking is what's next for you both, you know? So for me, you know, like now I've got a really good understanding of where you've come from, how that process has worked, how you've gone through and in different ways, done several internships, done one internship, bounced around different courses, and then you've you've come out the end the kind of education machine I suppose to a certain level now and um it's kind of what's next what do you do next you know what what what are the kind of processes you follow you know do you uh apply for jobs internally to the companies you're interning in do you look externally how does how does that all work what is your what is your mindset and obviously you've been really busy in uni going through all of the co stuff so do you have a gap do you take a breather or what do you think about so so Iman for you, what's your next steps? I'm going to look at the short term and long term. I'd say in the short term, I just want to finish uni and make sure I graduate on time. Um, but in terms of currently, we're all um discussing lots of roles internally and externally because our internship program is for 12 months and now we have to look for grad roles. So, um, we're looking into how what our next two years or three years are going to look like after postgraduation and that's why we're um, all interns are currently working on intern um, in the intern program. But you know Dan um personally for me what's next and I ask myself this every day and I had this conversation with Jennet is I want to do a role or a job where yeah it ticks up all the job requirements but I want to feel satisfied that I left a bit of an impact to my team members or my team or just in general for myself. And right now what's next is I'm trying to explore and find what my personality matches best with an activity or a role at Microsoft or external generally and I'm cruising my way through and seeing what matches with me so I can leave that impact and also be able to help my team and in this tech field in general because I'm super passionate about it and being in the edges space I've my eyes have opened up so much I feel like there's so much to do just less amount of time and I just want to I just want to grab onto something and get out there so that's what's next for me that's what's next that is amazing that's great and Janet yourself yeah no for sure um so I currently obviously applying. So, ASPAR roles are hopefully so graduate roles are hopefully sooning um opening up soon and um that's probably something that we're all looking forward towards. But I think aside from that, I really want to, you know, graduate from uni and uh still continue on a lot of my impact work and uh being a representation towards the community that I came from and inspire young students and young girls that you know, you can get to where you are today. Obviously, it's going to be a little difficult, but just keep on inspiring them. I don't know how much of inspiration I can be. Um, but being able to just be a representation because I wish I wish when I was in high school, I was in year nine. Um, I had a represent I had someone that looked like myself come into my high school and tell me that, you know, you can do it. You can do this. You just need to put your head through it. And I wish I was able to be that. I I was able to get that guidance. And right now, I think, Dan, like one of the most inspiring things for me is that um my little brother when I got into my degree was that he was like I want to be a software engineer just like you. And I think that made me so emotional because I still this day I think about it is that you know I was able to inspire him in some way and if I can inspire other students facing very similar problems that I did when I was in high school um it could probably change their perception and get them headstrong and go into engineering and um that is something that I would love to continue doing and being a representation towards my community and work towards making it a more inclusive and diverse space and seeing more hijabi representation in industry. So well that's that's fantastic you know that like I don't know both of you like really passionate about about that area and I think you know it's it's a testament to you know you discussion here as well the the the impact you've had on us all in Microsoft and and beyond and our customers and partners and and people you meet you know your friends your family you know you you're absolutely inspirational you both are and it's been great to have your insight into your stories because you're absolutely right. I think when people look into any job, it doesn't matter if it's in tech or whatever. You know, it's hard for for people of your age um to think about a what jobs you might want to go through or careers, you know, you've gone through, you know, various different degree types and styles and and and you've had to negotiate COVID as well and do interning on top of it. You know, you've done a phenomenal job and it's been inspirational speaking to you today and and really appreciate you joining the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much, Dan. It was amazing to be able to be a part of this. So, you know, Dan, one last point I actually wanted to mention was um from what I realized that going back to one of the questions you asked in the beginning is, you know, majority of Sydney where we in New South Wales and Sydney, a lot of the population comes from Western Sydney. And when I talk to a lot of these younger kids or older kids, why haven't you applied? And there's a lot of scrutiny and discrimination that's coming from our socio economic areas and a lot of cultural backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds. And I kid you not, Dan, if you look in the work they do, the demos they created, the innovation that they've done in schools and post school as well, it's amazing and it's bizarre. And if they just have that little push from people and organizations like yourself and I and bring them in, this industry is just going to rapidly grow in a short amount of time. And I just wish if if one of the people do listen to this, they get that push because we do need people from from those areas and come into organization like ours and expand totally and and and you know just to expand on that again as well you know I think there's a also an element in Australia generally where you got rural communities that feel as if they disenfranchised because they feel as if they got to go to the city and that's the same globally as well you know people go well I've got to go to Sydney or I've got to go to Brisbane or I've got to go to Adelaide or Melbourne to get the jobs because I got to be near the city whereas you know you can do a lot of the road now especially through hybrid has proved that you can do the the roles no matter where you are right and and and to take your point as well it's so important that we get that that recognition of people from the various backgrounds various areas regionally um you know I know Megan Towns on our team is always west is best west is best in Sydney she's always she's always yelling that and I'm up in the northwest in Sydney here as well and and I think um there you're right there are polarizing areas in whatever city you're living in, aren't they? And and people assume that people are from different backgrounds or from different areas and and they may have different abilities or they may get access to less resources. You know, I've seen some amazing work in like um CF West innovation college in um in Paramata Dascese where they've completely changed the the timets around Tiff qualifications, industry qualifications, creativity like it's phenomenal the stuff that's going on and you know we need people like yourselves you know I don't mean we as in Microsoft or technology I mean society needs people like you both to be able to advocate for everybody and us all and and you know you you know making sure that people like myself and everybody else uh that you come in contact with is aware and as empowered to drive that message as well right exactly and we need the retention we 100% do and I think going back to One quick story. I know we're going slightly over time, but you know, when when people do come into tech, we need to make sure that they're contributing as much as they can by making sure they're retained here with the experiences and the team makes a huge effort. Dan, you're an amazing amazing colleague. And it's because the drive that you give me, I I enjoy what I do in the edges space. Like a few weeks back at MCAPS, there were around 2,000 people in the hall that we were at, right? And me and my sister were the only hijabis there. And looking around, left, right, center, we just felt so out of place. We had double thoughts for the next two weeks and is this Microsoft a place for us. Should we stay here for grad should we stick on? But you know we love technology but we love our teams even more and we have realized the amount of growth we've had in this tech um teams and you know what Dan I'm happy to say I would love to stay on in any tech company because the people and our teams make me anchored and I love it here no matter what differences are. That's so good. That's amazing to hear. Brilliant. Thanks Janet. Thanks Iman. Thank you for your time. today and your insights are fantastic and your impact is amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Have a great weekend.

In this episode Beth, Lee, and Dan are in the studio and talk about the skills and hiring trends that they see.  

Digital Pulse 2022 (acs.org.au)

This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own.

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 7

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hi everybody. Welcome to the AI podcast. How are you doing, Lee and Beth? Yeah, really, really well. Actually, guys, I'm a year older since we last met. So, it was my birthday this week, just a few days ago. Happy We all sing happy birthday now. Is that what we do, Dan? Do we? H. No, let's not do that. There comes a point where you stop doing that, don't you? You stop singing happy birthday. Is that right? Well, actually, you say that I um I actually had to to be up in Brisbane for a a work offsite on my birthday. And not only did the team sing happy birthday to me, they did it twice. Um that the second time was in a restaurant in front of a whole pile of people. So, um I I do feel like um I've done my dash with birthday songs this year, but it was it was actually a really great birthday. Last this time last year, I was in isol Um, so you know, onwards and upwards, I think. Well, I it was birthdays. I I I had one of those big milestones, you know, the really really big ones, but I was in isolation. Yeah. I wish 30th, right? 30 30 years ago kind of thing. No, not quite for that, but uh but it was a big birthday, but yes, I was stuck in isolation. And, you know, I'm sure that's been the case for a lot of people that, you know, we laugh about the not singing, but it you know, it's important to celebrate and it was hard in in co. So, I'm glad you got to go and do something better and finally get out and and meet the team, I guess, up in was it the Brisbane? Did you say you went to? Yes. Yes. And you know, um it's it's funny because it's amazing to be able to meet people face to face after spending two and two plus years just staring at their face on a screen. And um and I think we've had this conversation before. You know, it does remind me how short I actually am when I meet people face to face and I realize I'm taller than everyone else in Melbourne yesterday and and I said, you know, some of them Some people didn't even realize I was Welsh. Some people didn't realize that I was 6'4 in joke. But um uh you know in Jess but yeah that that happens that happens also in social media as well. Just just audiences uh audiences sake. Dan is not 6'4 by the way. I can assure you of that. But he's definitely Welsh. I can't say anyone would not have spotted that. Dan uh as as you know my son saw you present at an event once and I said did he said it uh he had an interesting accent and I said do you know where he's from? And he said Welsh. So you stand out. found out in the crowd, my friend. Fantastic. I um I have a lot of Welsh friends, Dan, so I can I can pivot to to Welsh in um in under a second. And I've got to say, I know your accent so well that I even read your tweets in my mind in a Welsh accent. And there that's that's a action, right? In your own mind. Yeah, that's brilliant. So today's episode um we're going to look at some some of the kind of poignant things which are in people's minds at the minute. based on what we've been having conversations with, you know, in in the tech community in in our kind of social uh platforms that that we utilize and and try to bring some of those together. And the focus today is going to be around skilling, but also in the lens that we've just come out of co so everybody's in a degree of flex. There's a lot of change happening and what we thought was going to happen to say around technology is that some projects might go into the back burner, but actually what's happened is accelerated a lot of the projects that people might have wanted to be doing like AI and data projects, people migrating to the cloud which has meant that as well as uh dealing with the pandemic, people are also now putting a different lens on skilling. So in the last couple of years in my role as a technology strategist, the skilling conversation was almost like an afterthought. Whereas now people are pushing projects on so quickly that they're actually having really deep discussions about how they manage their team, what kind of roles they're going to recruit, for what kind of roles they actually even have anymore, you know, because some of the IT leaders are now also custodians of well-being in some places. So, you know, they they they pushing out say some of the Microsoft products like Viva and things where it's giving employees insights into their uh you know, daily work habits and things and and they're giving employees devices now for hybrid work. So, they they kind of starting to develop policies to do with HR. So, HR and IT are developing these hybrid working policy And and I suppose the words that are coming in as well with skill in which is which is quite confusing really because skilling sometimes in the purest form is you're a technologist you do these exams and you're doing this. Um but then you've also got your kind of generalist kind of roles where where you might be managing people as well. But then also you've got this lens of the employee experience. So thinking about when you are you know recruiting for the new world and the new skills and the new jobs you're also thinking Well, how do I recruit for people from multiple backgrounds from, you know, uh, people with autism, ADHD, different areas in that area. I know Beth, you've done a heap of work around this, you know, from people being reskilled out of other industries and then also how we think about, you know, retention and recruitment of staff as well. So, there's a lot here to unpack and we'll just talk about this generally and and with our own lenses uh to see where we go and and hopefully the listeners will have a bit of insight into where we're thinking just from our relationships and our customers and people in technology. Does that sound good? Sounds good to me. Good to me. Fantastic. So, can I kick off then? I know I've talked a little bit here, but I'll just kick off with the IT lens. Um, you know, I'm a technology strategist working with the IT teams in in schools and and uh other accounts that I'm working with outside education as well. And when I'm speaking to the IT teams, um, they are now really keen like I said at the of what are the roles uh what are the roles that Microsoft's recruiting for you know and it'll be interesting to have your lens on that Lee because you see this across a lot of lot of areas but you know I've seen in my uh you know particular experience that people are now recruiting in education for uh data scientists information architects security uh folks because I think what's the hybrid world has done is pushed three mega trends I suppose cloud more AI and data more and security is becoming prevalent. So they're looking for well what courses do I need to do? Who am I supposed to be hiring for in that kind of area, you know, and and so that's one element. And then on the second side of it, they're also asking me, well, how do we retain and recruit those people and how do we keep being mindful of the employee experience for us? So how do we make sure that people's well-being are catered for? Um because we want to, you know, employ and also give the staff the best experience around this. How do we connect? How do we focus? And how do we empower everybody to achieve more with the skills they got? So, so I'm seeing quite a lot of uh lots of different signals coming from IT teams um from a skilling point of view and from that empowering um the employee experience. So, so Lee, what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think my first thought is Dan is you have obviously had like 16 cups of coffee this morning because that was a uh that was a a mammoth introduction. Lots and lots of words to unpack there. But look, let me and I wanted to pick up on a couple of things. as you said, I'm trying to pick my way back through it all, but um you know, one of the key things for me is you talk about, you know, people asking these questions about what skills do they need to be investing in and what take, you know, what kind of where what areas of technology almost should they become specializing. You talk about things like AI and machine learning and data science. And I'm certainly not going to discredit the fact that being a specialist in some of those areas is going to be not valuable. Of course, it's super valuable and there's a wealth of opportunity out there for people like that. But I think it's also important to recognize that those are they they're sort of the careers in themselves. I mean they're life journeys that you don't just sort of go and do a course and say right now I'm a I'm an AI specialist. And I think we'd all appreciate that you you kind of there's an ongoing lot of learning to be done there. But what I'm actually personally seeing when I talk to and I I don't probably interview as many people as you do, but I certainly speak to a lot of people young in career or in jobs looking to think about how they transition into their industry. And I'm finding that as technology becomes so rich, deep, and complex and all-encompassing. You know, technology is no longer a thing that is constrained to the tech industry. Every industry is technical. Uh, every part of our lives relies on technology. And now, technology is starting to weave its way into every facet of what we do. Yeah. And I'm starting to find that actually the skills that we need to be hiring for, and I think, and I might throw to Beth in a minute because this plays to some of those work we've done around thinking about neurodeiverse hiring, is we actually want people that can an analyze problems in really interesting unique ways who people who can be dealing with a vacuum of information but still be comfortable and willing to work through a problem or work through a scenario. So the technology piece of it you know hey I know how to use Azure well hey I know how to be a data scientist well they're almost I would say it sounds terrible nice to haves but when you've got people that can can adapt to a scenario listen to a problem and then ask intelligent questions so you know, it comes down to some really basic skills for me, which is, you know, communication, listening, uh, understanding, and I don't know how you frame that as a skill. Probably you guys are better at framing that, but it's that idea of just being able to take in a bunch of information and think it through. I think that's really when I think about the skills, there's there's things that you need to be able to do, but those are the skills that are the core of it. Beth, you know, when I I threw you to that sort of neurodyiverse hiring piece because I know you know a bit about it, but maybe you want to talk about how does that factor into that thinking when we think about these kinds of non-technical product skills but more capabil soft skills as I think they used to be called. Yeah. So I I think there's a move to um uh to to move away from talking about it as a soft skill and more you know empowering skills or skills that are at the core of what you need to have as a technology uh professional. And interestingly you know I think we we hear a lot from the technology industry and many of our partners customers around the need for more people to to come into the industry and um and and certainly more people from diverse backgrounds with different lived experiences and different ways of tackling the the problem. And as we you part of that solution will be young people coming out of university computer science um and similar kinds of courses. But increasingly our partners and customers are actually recruiting people from a heap of different backgrounds with perhaps very little previous IT experience or recent qualifications from boot camps and other types of um other types of courses. So um and those types of people are being hired on the basis of their you know quote unquote soft skills. So as you're saying it is communication but things like uh an ability to collaborate with others and you know that recognition that um often working in the IT industry is is um a a team effort and you know being able to work with teams of people especially if you're working remotely or working with teams of people from across the world you know that people with that type of experience um are in high demand. I think also your your kind of point around being able to comprehend it's almost like sitting with ambiguity as well. Being able to move through because and and and and perhaps underpinning all of this is a commitment to ongoing learning and a natural curiosity, problem solving that some of those types of skills because I think, as you alluded to, the technology industry is so rich and complex and every time you think you understand what's going on, you're out of date because the industry is moving so quickly. That sounds like my life. Yes. Out of date. Okay. It feels like it it sounds Sounds like my budgeting actually my personal finance. But you know I think being able to be comfortable in an environment that is constantly changing and being comfortable with um you or being motivated by seeking to learn and seeking to solve a problem I think is is what um increasingly customers and partners are looking for and and they I've had lots of conversations including with you know major companies who looking to hire hundreds of people and they're just literally hiring on the basis of a aptitude or sorry of attitude and and they will hire people once they find them. So that they are hiring people who are coming into the IT industry with you know business management experience or project management experience or perhaps people management. Um they're hiring chemists, psychologists, retail workers, baristas, you know, you name it, they they they are finding talent all over the the place and you know, from some diverse communities of well as well. So, um working with disability employment agencies or agencies that support women returning to the the workforce after a career break and then of course um uh people coming out of the the Australian Defense Force. So, you know, these these are people who have a rich set of different experience and a lot to share. from the perspective of those types of experiences and once they're in the job they can learn the IT skills necessary to do the job but it's recognition that there's a lot of other skills that that we need as an industry and I think that's that's a the tangible thing I've always wrangled this because this is something I've always advocated for and I'm a total advocate for this the problem solving collaboration but I think I don't know if it really lands if I'm honest you know when when when we speak into when I'm speaking to kids and stuff like that and you know teachers are saying it to everybody you know it's about the collaboration and everything but then it's really hard I think you hit the nail on the head there it's about valuing those skills and making them tangible in some way so the way you articulated there was a little bit of a light bulb moment for me as well because then you can think well actually I do have value from career X whether I'm a chemist or a or somebody from the military because I've got these particular experiences of managing people for example because when we talking to kids about it we almost it almost feels like they they're a bit lost it feels as if we dumb it down a bit because we saying it's about problem solving and they're asking me do I need to learn Python do I need to learn this and those conversations are really important because yes they actually sometimes do and we don't want to just dilute it with maybe more important skills which are really hard to teach like the ones you just mentioned there about collaboration and the like it's it's it's a it's a tricky one and I always kind of um I struggled with the way we kind of pitch pitch the kind of softer skills. It's a really really interesting challenge. I was at a an event in Sydney um speaking on on um as part of a panel and one of the the points that really stuck with me was from a school principal in um in Sydney who uh manages a boy school and one of the things that he pointed out was that you you the IT industry and and many industries repeatedly say how important it is to uh to hire and develop people's teamwork, your collaboration skills and communication skills. Yet our um high school education is is uh measured or and young people measured on the impact of the individual marks that they can get. Yeah. By themselves and um you know Perhaps there are some exceptions here and there, but it did make me think a lot about, you know, how does a young person acquire those types of skills when high school isn't going to give it to you. But the one thing I would say, Dan, to to um young people who are interested in a career in IT is to just look for any kind of practical work experience that you can get. So I started my um working life as a um a checkout operator at Wworth's where I um after several years I moved into I was promoted into the hot chickens um area and and and so you know that experience wasn't necessarily you some of those transferable skills were were what I learned new customer service working to a deadline that was you know certainly teamwork communication all of those things am I cooking hot chickens in my current job unfortunately not not um but I you know potatoes perhaps in your hand but I you know it's it's getting those skills um and and actually learning it through applied through that lived experience is perhaps the most valuable and one thing we hear from partners and customers is that a lot of young people are even still coming out of university and still tricky to hire because they've got no practical work experience. um at all. So, you know, just even having like a part-time part-time job is better than nothing. So, I'm I'm this is a lived experience for me right now, Beth. My my son is heading into year 11 and so we're going through the process of deciding what you know what ostensibly might appear to a high school student as the decisions that will decide the rest of your life. You know, here are the the eight subjects you're going to choose that that determine your ATR, that determine your career and all that. And at the same time, we've just done his first resume cuz he's looking for jobs and you know going to get a job and it's really interesting to see it through the lens of someone of that age and their perceptions I say to him you know do you want to do be in IT like dad or do you want to do this and their pre-built perceptions even at that age of what it means to be in the IT industry oh you've got to be a coder you got to be a software developer oh you need to write code and I don't I don't want to sit in front of a computer all day you know or oh I want to be a doctor oh I want to be one of his friends wants to be a physiootherapist you know and he's like uh but means I got to, you know, deal with people and this that and the other and they're just they have this sort of boxed view of these things, right? Um but I couldn't agree more and the reason why we're getting his resume out to go and get a job at Wworth or Bunnings or Harris Farm wherever, you know, he kind of gets it out there to is just to learn how to talk to people, transact with people, deal with deal with a situation where actually it's not going to go your way. Sorry. You know, you're just going to have to deal with what it is. I think those are those resiliency skills. And that was the word I was trying to think of earlier. Resiliency is probably the greatest skill in particularly in the world we live in today regardless of the tech industry even it's just the world is a unfortunately a a challenging place to to thrive in you know in in in any place and so resiliency becomes your key to happiness almost in some ways and and do you think do you think that co has actually had an impact on that because when I'm speaking to young people at the minute you know my own kids and my partner's kids and things like that you know the expectations lots of people are now I think co's reset them and they're thinking more in terms of you know what I want to work for myself more I want to spend more time at home they're working the hybrid I've seen how mom or dad or uncle or auntie has been working from home spending more time with me I like that you know I I think it's resetting and that was the that was the lens that I put right at the beginning there around this employee experience I think there's two things one people one is people like uh our age might be thinking, well, I now want to reset work's expectations of me and my expectations of what I'm doing in work, which is a great conversation to have, but then also people coming into the workforce are are expecting differently. And we will in next episode, I think based on the conversations here, we will interview some interns in the next episode to see if our expectations and and thoughts here are the, you know, are similar to theirs. But I I do think that they've reset their expectations and and rightly. You know, one of my sons is uh uh working in a as a washing dishes in a local Italian restaurant. Um and uh they both do sport refereeing. So, this year has been a bit of an epiphany for me because rather than driving them to sport and driving them to work and they're getting paid to do basketball refereeing and hockey refereeing and I know and Tom's going to his um uh kind of restaurant that he's working at. So, it's it's different expectations that they having and I think they're getting in some of the experiences to take your point as well uh Beth from varied areas as well. So do you think do you think it's it is changing isn't it co's definitely changed people's expectations it's you know I think I think that's definitely true Dan and you we were talking about this in over the last few days around how co has changed the ways in which government work forces have have worked And perhaps historically um you know the tech industry has been an early adopter of people working remotely and working from home and and so I you know for me co really didn't change that much if anything um because everyone was working remotely. It was almost better for me because everyone was joining remote as opposed to me um joining remote from Adelaide where it was a group of people in Sydney um having a chat and and I felt a little bit kind of excluded from from some of that. So co for me was a great leveler. Um and the but the tech industry has been working remotely for years and years and years. And so what I think has changed um is that that way of working has been more widely adopted across sectors that were historically more risk adverse and less willing to change. And you it's challenged a lot of the expectations around um presenteeism and you know if you are seen in the office then people assume you're working versus being you know accountable for what you actually deliver for me I think that's that's also very empowering thing as an employee that I am trusted to deliver um my you against roles and my uh responsibilities and objectives and I'm you know it's not about how many hours I'm sitting in front of a laptop. Um, and young people are definitely looking at that and um, and I think you people in the current workforce and young people as well are going to be um, more able to dictate the terms of your their expectations and and employers will have to you if they want the best talent and if they want to retain the best talent then they will have to um, you manage their system. accordingly. And if you think about the future of the industries that we have here um in Australia but around the world and a lot of the wealthy companies now are knowledge based uh companies that rely on smart people you that is that is going to be the way that people um will expect to be working and I I've been watching even uh trials around the world where they're looking at 4 day weeks um and you know, the the the better work life balance that you get from being able to be flexible is is one thing, but then perhaps it will even move into more accommodations around um part-time work or 4 day weeks and and that's exciting, I think, for lots of parents. Um so, you guys both have uh much older children. So, my daughter's only seven and and I found um you working from home is so much better just to try and balance all the things that you need to accommodate as a parent and and perhaps moving towards these more flexible ways of working will also create opportunities for people who would have otherwise been excluded from uh a more rigid workplace which expected you to be there from you know 8 till 6 or something. I wonder Beth, it's a really good point and on the location thing you know obviously yes for you it was that opportunity to be more included because you're no longer kind of required to be in Sydney but you're still in a capital city and I think there's still a you know there's a I wonder if the question is is this message now reaching our regional areas outside of capital cities that they could be included and I I know that something you talked about when we spoke off offline before the the podcast around the um the digital pulse report from the ACS which talks a bit about some of these challenges of uh location proportionality you know where we bring these people in um I don't know if you've got any thoughts on that because I think that's also really an untapped opportunity is the people that aren't in the It is so true, Lee. And you know, I've had lots of interesting conversations with government agencies who are looking at this as an opportunity to locate some of their offices outside of some of our bigger cities. And again, that's the recognition that there needs to be physical loca physically located offices to to tap into regional talent pools. But, you know, you look at companies like Atlassian um who say, you know, work from anywhere. Literally, as long as you've got a computer and internet access, you can you can do your job. And there's lots I was having a conversation about this with some colleagues. Um, you know, has has co unlocked a lot of opportunities for people to move into regional towns and I know some of our colleagues have moved to places like Ely Beach and Byron Bay and um, uh, regional Western Australia. We've got people who um are located now in Darwin. Um you this is this is such a good opportunity for regional centers to uh to to promote their lifestyle and and it's as much not just the people like you say that that are choosing to move because suddenly I'm flexible enough and I want to make that you know sea change or or or whatever green change but I'm thinking more about actually young kids growing up in the bush who today see their future being really tied to the bush and the family and it you know, it's a it's a real world life experience for them is that it's hard for them to see beyond that. How do we get how does how does the tech industry get into the ears and into the minds of those kids so that they feel like, you know, hey, I could be a part of that. And I'm not suggesting we have the answer, but to me, I think that's one of those real opportunities. I agree. Um, you know, and the first minute we have a an office set up in the Hunter Valley, I'm I'm moving there. Of course, it's exactly where I want to work from. Um, oh, no, actually, I'll come down to you, Beth, in Adelaide. I think that's the best one. Exactly. Yeah, I think we might have just started a fight there, but yes, sorry. Go on. It is it is it is interesting, isn't it? There's going to be this balance between fluidity in in the workforce and also rigidity because we we caught up before this podcast and it was very clear from all of us that we've been meeting customers face to face recently and I think companies are going to be wrangling with this around employee experience, hybrid work. You know, we we all going to need some level of autonomy but a degree as well of rigidity because the best things happen when we all work together and we all come together and and co's helped us in so many ways by working remotely and in hybrid and giving us a great experience probably be well better for the families and things like that but also you know has had negative effects as well um but also the fact is we haven't been working with our colleagues as as much we haven't had as much um connections side water the cooler chats uh and and which develops a lot of innovation and and insight. You know, we'll be on a call and we talking about the podcast and then we'll jump off and we haven't talked about, you know, how things are going and where opportunities are and at lunch or anything like that. So, there's this balance and I think when we if we bring it back to skilling as well, you know, I think I think we're never going to answer the the well-being and employee experience questions, I suppose, and the questions that we've posed today, but people need to be thinking about those. But then when we start to go back down into thinking well what are the skills the the people you you were seeing Lee and and you were seeing Beth in in your customers and in conversations around Australia and globally. What are the skills then to kind of bring us all back together? What are the skills that people are kind of looking for most at the minute? So people listening to the podcast can go okay you know I know work's changing. I know I can work from anywhere. I know my expectations are changing but if I do have to get to the nitty-gritty. What what things should I be looking at, you know, tangibly? Um, what do you think, Lee? What are the kind of big trends for you? Um, so it's and it's not a copout answer, but it's maybe some think of a copout answer, but I I've just seen it time and time again that the most powerful skill anyone ever has in the room in a any situation, whether it be work, play, life, school, anything else, is the ability to communicate. And that I don't mean communicate as in talk and talk, you know, with all the best fancy words you've ever thought of. But communication, as you both know, is that kind of that art of it's a two-way thing. It's the art of listening and communicating. And I just see so much of the need for people that can listen, interpret, adapt, and then engage around a particular scenario. And yes, if they've got a particular product skill or they've got some experience in some industry or some, you know, work experience they've done that's taught how to do something XY Z. That that's proven that they've learned how to learn. I always say to my kids, actually, now you got me on this idea. You know, you go to school to learn stuff. You go to a university to learn a specialist, but that whole process is learning how to learn and grow. You then go into the real world and use that ability to learn to actually develop, you know, skills and capability. Um, and so, yeah, to me, it's just, you know, I if you can communicate to people, listen, act, and all those things I said, you can pretty much do anything. and and you know and everyone assumes they can communicate but actually when you see real communication in action and we've all seen it in various you know people we've seen it's it's a joy to behold somebody that can actually hold a room and a conversation and and bring everybody into that conversation not just be the sole voice you know all those things I know that's for me so so tangibility and I'll go to you in a second Beth but just to unpick that a little bit you know when we thinking about because I love that analogy but when we thinking about that for the people listening into the podcast today Okay. I suppose what they can do to evidence that if they're in whatever age they are, whatever career they're in, it's about being able to uh maybe publish articles on LinkedIn, maybe video uh a video themselves doing something, you know, showing that they can articulate a particular point. So when you're hiring, you see that and go, okay, Dan's done a presentation at wherever it's on YouTube or Beth's done a blog post about a particular device that's come out or work skilling in LinkedIn. And you can see that people are communicating. They've got a point of view. Is that would you say I'll give you that and then I'll let Beth talk. I when I'm hiring people dirty secret I don't actually read their resume very often. I mean I might look at it brief quickly. When I'm hiring someone I look up their name and I go look across a range of platforms. YouTube, LinkedIn typically because I'm looking at work people but other places. I'm not really interested in their social media plat profile. Of course that can be more important these days. But I want to go and see what do they talk about, how they communicate, how visible are they? Do they actively go out there and profer an opinion on things? That's what I look for. And and the resume is kind of a nice to have if it's great tip. Yeah. And for for you, Beth, what would you your thoughts be around this? Yeah. Look, I I I think it's really interesting to hear that perspectively and I agree with you to a large extent. But um as you're talking, I'm thinking gosh, how how would a young person compete when you know they've never had a platform to have a perspective or you know to demonstrate um you know or to write a big blog post about something. So for me I think it all comes down to attitude uh kind of overriding aptitude to a large extent and so an attitude towards um and a commitment towards continual growth and learning is perhaps the most important thing that um that I think would demonstrate some ability to be successful in the IT industry. But that that sort of ongoing commitment to self-growth and that concept of growth mindset I think is also an incredibly important how would they evidence that Beth? Yeah. So, so for me I think and if we were looking at this from a traineehship perspective Dan you know some of the things that I think we we look for is uh a an ability to extend beyond just academic studies. So, so somebody that perhaps has a sporting commitment and might have volunteered as a coach or been, you know, part of the the organizing committee in some capacity. So, an ability to kind of extend beyond um beyond academic studies is is terrific. Um certainly anyone with some practical work experience is really um highly valued as well because we know that they have had some opportunity to communicate or to you know practice communication skills, engage with customers and have that kind of customer service mentality I think would be um one way of being able to evidence um some practical skills that would be really relevant in a workplace. But then you know there is such a proliferation of free training um available to to people and somebody who has undertaken you know a a couple of extra courses or they've completed, you know, some uh some of the free training that you can get from EdX and Corsera and um you know, there's lots of LinkedIn training now that is free. So, somebody who's really kind of looked into the um the ways in which they can learn more about a particular skill or particular thing and they've undertaken some ongoing learning. It demonstrates a commitment to professional and personal growth and a commitment to to lifelong learning and a curiosity as well. Um, but we we've had lots of applicants who've been able to demonstrate um or problem solving and things like that. You know, they might have participated in Lego championships or um you we have a lot of young people who doing gaming um now which um you but and and they've extended that into you know arranging clubs and events and things like that. So you can You know, I think there's lots of opportunities for young people to push themselves beyond their academic studies. And it's not to say, you know, I remember year 12 as highly stressful year. And you the other thing I would say to to people perhaps the most important thing is to you you're going to be working for a really long time. And the number one thing to do in in my book is to follow your passion. You know, find what you like and worry about the job. Because in all likelihood, young people coming out of school and and young people kind of entering the IT, entering the workforce now, they're likely to change jobs, you know, four or five times um at least. And there are so many things that you will learn along the way and so many opportunities to reinvent yourself. And this narrative around uh your final years of high school being able to dictate the rest of your life I think you're rubbish. You know, we've had lots and lots of young people through our traineeship program who frankly didn't even finish year 12 and and there's lots of reasons why that was the case. But um you life is going to be a continual journey of learning and if you can commit yourself to learning and be if you're motivated by personal growth, I think you know those are the types of people that we can accommodate. And that's some great examples cuz I think those ones are the tricky ones. to actually articulate. I will be devil's advocate with my kind of tip I suppose because I do agree with both of you and you know they're great answers but you know if you if people are looking for tangible things as well not that any of these aren't tangible because they are important but I I think there is an element of getting fundamental stuff done right as well. So if people are looking for real courses and things to do um which they might want to want to showcase you know looking at things like general capabilities on security and and cloud generally and and really thinking about some of those technologies that are kind of at the forefront. You know what I told um when I was speaking to a lot of IT teams, I spoke to 50 people the other day in one of the local like education authorities and um they were asking about some of the trends and I said, "Well, read the earnings reports of the big tech sector. If they're interested in technology, they should know where Google, Apple, Microsoft are making their money because then they can see where the trends are. You know, the earnings reports are really really clear. They they're very direct about where different companies are going and you can then put your bet if you're betting your career in technology. You can look at the the companies and go, well, okay, company X is betting on clouds, company B is betting on hardware, you know, and if you're interested in that, you can go this way. So, but I do think there's a fundamental layer like even our marketing executives in Microsoft need to do their Azure fundamentals, Microsoft 365 fundamentals, Dynamics fundamentals, Power platform fundamentals. So you you I'm going to get product specific but you know security cloud fundamentals um uh would be kind of the key pick for me. Maybe data AI fundamentals uh just so people have got a a base knowledge of some of those topics that are happening. So that would be my kind of tip as well. But I love your answers everybody. And tomorrow um we'll be doing another episode but it will it'll be released two weeks time. Sorry I I don't know what if I said tomorrow. Tomorrow is when we be recording it. But for next week, um, we'll be interviewing some interns, uh, to actually see if they are lived experiences correlate to what our thoughts are on on on this episode today. So, any closing remarks, uh, Lee or Beth, before we close the episode down? Oh, look, just a a shameless plug, Dan, actually. And just to your point around, you know, some of those fundamental skills, Microsoft actually has a bunch of really cool new and totally free divorces coming up in August. So, I've been waiting for the US to determine exactly which date, but I think um for anyone out there interested in a range of different IT and professional roles, these courses are going to be fantastic um to put on a CV and start from even kind of office basics and productivity basics. And so, um you this is this has been a long time coming and I think anyone out there who's looking to demonstrate uh some proficiency in some of the more basic skills and also look into um further education in these areas. I think you will have a lot to offer in that space in just a couple of weeks time. So fantastic watch this space. Yeah, we'll share the links and also some of the reports as well that you mentioned. I know there's the ACS report. There was a report from the tech council. There's a report from hybrid work that we've done making hybrid work work. So we put all of those in the show. notes as well. But thanks everybody for your time today and and we've skied on a lot of information there and thank you for bringing you uh lenses to uh such an important topic and let's keep the skilling conversation going. Awesome. Good to see you both. Thank you. Bye.

In this episode, Beth is in the studio and joined by Lynn McDonald, Microsoft Azure Space Lead, Asia Pacific. 

Shownotes: 

• Azure Space achieves lift-off in Australia – Microsoft Australia News Centre 
• Microsoft for Australian Space Startups | Microsoft Australia

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 6

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hello everyone. My name is Beth Warl and you are joining us here today on the AI in education podcast. I am actually by myself today in that I don't have either Lee or Dan with me, so anything could happen, which is exciting and terrifying in equal measure. Um, usually we would reflect a little bit on what we had done over the weekend. and or over the last week. And um I must say now that I have a new puppy, I haven't had a very exciting life these last few weeks, but I did go and enjoy Top Gun. This is a movie that I wouldn't have necessarily thought I would enjoy, but I loved it so much that I want to go again and see it as soon as I possibly can. I am very, very excited to say that we are joined by our very own Top Gun today. Today, Lynn McDonald. Hi, Lynn. Thanks for joining us on the podcast. Hi, Beth. Thanks for having me. Um, I'm not a Top Gun, but I did see it twice in the same week. So, no judgment here. No judgment. I I must admit I had um I had watched the original just to remind me of um you know, the extensive narrative. Um but obviously in the in the time that the original was filmed and this latest version, you two things. the technology and the simulated experiences change but and yet Tom Cruz's face remains the same in terms of still looking about that is the magic of Hollywood is um but Lynn you um are the head of Azure space for Microsoft here in Australia um now we're going to get on and talk a little bit about what Azure space means in a minute but you yourself had a really interesting experience and career in the US military. So, I'd love to talk to you a little bit about that. But before we do, tell me Top Gun. You saw it twice in one week. How accurate was it to the experience that you had in the military, albeit in a completely different field? Did you Did you Were you drawn into the story? What did you think of the movie? You obviously liked it if you saw it twice. I did. I I mean, the flying scenes were absolutely incredible. It was So, the second time I stayed And I watched the um I watched through to the very last uh credit that rolled onto the screen. And um there was an extensive um engagement with uh with the Navy, with their public affairs, with their operators, uh with their fighter weapons school. Um so I was like, "Okay, yeah, they did their homework." Um some of the flying scenes were pretty um um well, they're just amazing and fun to watch. watch, but uh some of the um what they portrayed in the flying scenes, I was like, "Okay, they definitely um were spot on with uh the advising and um their interest in in capturing the reality of um the, you know, the operational environment." Uh so, um Oh, yeah. Um I could have sat through and watched it back to back the first time I saw it, but it's certainly made me, you're right, so much time has passed. Um, from the first uh to the, you know, Top Gun Maverick, Tom Cruz did manage to hold it together. Yeah. Way better than we have in a year. Frankly, it still looks the same. While I feel like I was, you know, 30 years older from when I first saw it, for sure. Uh, but, uh, it definitely made me quite nostalgic for, uh, my time in the military. I was in the Air Force, the US Air Force. Um, so, you know, a bit around the flying environment. Um, but I spent the majority of my time uh in space and satellite uh operations uh while I was in the Air Force for 23 years. But, uh, yeah, it was a wonderful career, amazing experiences, incredible responsibility, absolutely loved what I was doing uh with uh defense, space and satellite operations, space launch. Um I I really spent the majority of my career across the the space mission areas. Um but Top Gun absolutely wonderful, wonderful experiences and memories uh from my time in the Air Force. Um and you know, I'm now super happy to be a part of the Microsoft team. Uh every once in a while I do get a little nostalgic uh Top Gun, you know, I don't know, maybe there were some tears flowing here and there, possibly nostalgia, possibly the goofiness of some of the scenes. Um but yeah. Oh, that's amazing. So, Lynn, tell me um how did you end up in the military in the first place? Was that a calling that you had um you when you embarked on your career or did it happen almost by accident? Um possibly. possibly a bit by accident. I mean, I was in I grew up in California and uh you know, the schools there, the high schools did a pretty good job of keeping recruiters out of the schools. It's pretty liberal state and there wasn't uh at least where I grew up, there wasn't a a militant military presence. Uh I didn't have family in the military. My dad served in the army for four years during the Korean um during the on more, but he went to Korea. Um, but it really wasn't, you know, a part of the family. I didn't have a lot of exposure to it. Um, I did have a boyfriend in college who got into some financial trouble and instead of declaring bankruptcy went off to join the army. Uh, at least that's how my college brain recalls the scenario. So, he joined the army and drove tanks. And this was, you know, back pre- email days. Um, but I would get these letters about what he was doing, the missions, um, all of the camaraderie, the people he was meeting, um, all of the responsibility he was given. And I was looking forward to the letters to hear about what he was doing in the army more than I was looking forward to actually hearing from him. Typical college boyfriend experiences. Right. I I could not wait to hear what he was doing and it just sounded like such an amazing experience and uh you know I was studying business in university. Um the job market was a bit down. There wasn't anything that really drew me in um in the you know in industry. Um but I was really getting wrapped into these stories of um military the military experience. And so I went and spoke with a recruiter. Uh and uh I you know I think the Navy had been calling you know the recruiters call the the um call the homes and you know get in touch um when they you know know that you're getting to the age of considering and I think I had gotten calls from the Army recruiter. I'd gotten calls from the Navy recruiter. You know maybe if I would have known about Tom Gunn I would have called the Navy recruiter back but um uh I knew I probably wasn't a Marine. Uh and uh as you know, incredibly impressive bunch there. Um but, uh I thought, well, why isn't the Air Force calling me? So, I went and got in touch with an Air Force recruiter and uh I've got to give it to the recruiter. Um you know, they can be a bit, oh, right, sign the dotted line. Um but uh he really spent some time with me and and talked through like what do you want to do and and honestly at the time I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew I just wanted to be a part of um this military experience and was super interested in the air becoming increasingly interested in the air force u with what I was finding out. And so I told him I'm going to go to I'm going to go to university uh or finish university and I'm going to join the air force. And uh you know he kind of talked me through the whole thing and uh and he said look I think you should look at um you know taking the path of the the officer training. And so he put me in touch with uh it's called reserve officer training corps that they have in many of the universities in the US. He put and so he put me in touch with the university's ROC um officer training program and uh as they say the rest is a bit of history. Well it's such an interesting story and I I do wonder I've spent a little bit of time recently with our defense team and also with the a team um in the US who are responsible for um reskilling and supporting military veterans into technology roles. So as I've started spending a lot more time with ADF um uh veterans and it is such an intriguing area to to have worked in. You can certainly see some of the qualities and experiences that you come out of that um industry with very very compelling um kind of experience. But tell me What was it that kind of changed your what what was what was the move from your military career into a career now with Microsoft? How did how did that happen? So I, you know, as I mentioned, I um was in the US Air Force for 23 years. I um had gotten to the rank of colonel. Had some amazing experiences leading up to that point. um oper in operations in command. I I really valued the command positions um and uh in command you're leading uh organizations that um where you have very specific responsibilities for the organization as a commander and and the people in the unit. Uh and I really treasured those experiences um and gained, you know, so much um so many valuable lessons learned in those um having those responsibilities as a commander. Uh um you know, but I I got to a point where you know, you you make these massive decisions over career and you know, where you want things to go and you look at things professionally and personally. And I really I I spent two years working through the decision to to retire um because I absolutely loved what I was doing. Um but I really had to evaluate where um I wanted to take some things in in my life and how I wanted to balance things again you know professionally and personally. I was also really interested to explore what was in industry and and look at you know the path beyond the military. So um you know after two years of of thinking through this you know you know when you know uh and in all those big life decisions. Uh you you know we all work through them in in different ways. Um but ultimately you know when you know and it it got really clear. I was like yep this is the time. And um you know I absolutely love um being a part of the space industry um you know in defense and now in um commercial industry. So I knew that I wanted to continue on um being a part of the the space. industry and contributing to this amazing uh community of um nerdy space uh experts uh and all the the different skills and personalities that come together in this really awesome industry. Um so I was just kind of you know exploring I knew it was time to move from um from the military and I was thinking about the next steps and um just kind of chewing on how I wanted to contribute what was important in terms of values and um you know my priorities for what I wanted to kind of pursue next. So I spent some time really kind of thinking through and evaluating that. Um meanwhile uh a very good friend of mine who is in the Australian Air Force uh said, "Hey um do you know Pam Melroy?" And I said, "Well, she's an astronaut. I don't know her. I'd love to know her." Uh He said, "I think you know I know her really well. I'm going to introduce you. I think I think you should you two should meet." She was really instrumental in the Australian space industry. Um I had done a bit of independent contracting consulting work um as I um was leaving the military. And in that consulting work, I was uh uh supporting a business that wanted to um start in the space industry, start a branch of their business in the space industry. in Australia. So it kind of evolved out of that and this discussion he said you know I think you should you should meet Pam Melroy. She was really instrumental instrumental in the Australian space and she was like gosh I'd love to meet with her. So I was connected to um to Pam uh she's in Washington got together for coffee and in that discussion um you know here's to the you know the value of networks. Um you know I've kind of learned over and over my the the value of of networks and and showing up as a as a good network um if you will and being a good good uh supporter of of networks for others. Um but uh I showed up to the um coffee meeting with with Pam and had a really interesting discussion about the industry, you know, different mission areas and uh she said, "Hey, give me, you know, send me a resume. And at that time, you know, I was just departed the the military and I had a glossy version of my resume in my purse at all times. Nice. So, I said, "Yeah, sure." Right. Always be prepared. Um, and so I, you know, whipped this uh resume out of my purse and she's like, "Okay, that's uh send it to me electronically." I was like, "Okay." So, uh, you know, uh, Yeah. So she was um had worked with our CTO uh who stood up the Azure space business in Microsoft. Uh she had worked with him in a previous role in DARPA and so you know he was building out the team and um I was connected to him and that's um where that took place and it was just you know when she said Microsoft I was like wow Microsoft that had not crossed my mind. Uh just hadn't crossed my mind because I was so focused on kind of you know defense contract roles um kind of standard roles that you know I was um familiar with from being in the military and but I was super intrigued by the Microsoft opportunity and then when I heard Microsoft was um building out new business in in space um one it completely made sense to me immediately when you think about it in terms of what Microsoft does in the way of compute and connectivity and big data. I just thought, "Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense." And holy smokes, can I be a part of this? Uh so, um yeah, so you know, through this, you know, this connection, uh through a good friend and and his network, it it opened up this completely new opportunity. It opened this door that I never would have considered. Uh and so that is what led me into Microsoft and um you know as I as I started to research the company um when I discovered this this opportunity, I was just like immediately and increasingly completely jing with the values of the company and I dug into um all sorts of course, you know, correspondents online and articles from Satia and just got a sense started getting a sense of the culture of the company. Um, you know, prior to getting set up with interviews and I just thought, "Oh, wow. This, you know, super impressed with um what I was learning about the culture and values of Microsoft." And um, you know, lo and behold, it's all true. Yeah. And it's such an important element of um of being satisfied and fulfilled. And you know, I wonder if it's especially so for people coming out of the military because that sense of purpose is is so ingrained from a military experience that you really want to I can imagine want to align yourself to an organization that has similar um values. So Lynn um can you tell me a little bit about Azure space and and is it as um has has been suggested in the past sort of irrelevant in that we've got so many PL problems on planet Earth. What the heck are we doing in space anyway? Or or do you see it very valid and relevant to solving some of those problems? Let's see. I can I'll start with your the second part of the the question first and then go back to what we're doing in Azure space. It is absolutely relevant. Space technology is absolutely relevant to what we're doing right here on Earth. Um there's so many different applications of space technology. We use space every day whether we realize it or not. From some of the more obvious things like GPS in my phone that helps me get anywhere anywhere these days. Um feel like I can't even walk up the street without having you know my uh maps app on. But uh to some of the more, you know, critical applications of space technology in the way of communication and applications of spaceorn data, of satellite imagery and being able to get uh you know, not only a broad uh geographic view for whatever business or operational use case uh you know, so applying space technology to applications right here on Earth is it's something that we we already do and may not even realize. But it's also incredibly essential whether it's um spacebor data, geospatial satellite imagery to make determinations about environmental decisions, sustainability decisions, business decisions, um and being able to make that at large scale and and make that that rapid um those rapid decisions. So I mean it's it's very much space technology is very applicable to right right here right now right on Earth. I know you know um there's a lot of discussion about um space exploration and um going back to the moon and going to Mars and that is all also um incredibly important um exploration and research and um you know expanding our our knowledge of of space and human um you know almost compatibility or or or looking beyond I know that Elon Musk is obviously looking for another planet I think is is that is he coming up with a plan B or is it more just setting a really ambitious goal to aim for just as the moon was ambitious all that all those many years ago? Well, I don't know really what Elon Musk is thinking and if I did um that would that would be pretty cool. But I think that um I think it's a really ambitious goal and I think that you know again it it really pushes the the limits uh to um help us think about our place in in space. Um and right you know I think the thing that I want to point out in in this is there there has been and there will continue to be many many advancements in technology in research across a number of different areas uh that will help us here on earth today and into the future. I mean there's medical exploration and discoveries that are taking place focused on uh how humans thrive and survive in space and that is affecting us you know our knowledge of we live and and thrive here on Earth today. I'll just take a quick example. There's a professor at an Australian university here that's doing uh quite a bit of work on uh researching cancer and how cancer reacts in space in zero gravity and um you know just very short on his his research um but is discovering that um you know cancer reaction to zero cancer cells reaction to zero gravity is that they begin to degrade very rapidly, dissipate and degrade very rapidly. So, we've seen this over time, just different technology advancements and research that can benefit here on Earth. Yeah, it's such an incredible area and and it's it's almost as if some of these things almost have an accidental benefit as well um to to advancing some of these some of the biggest challenges we face. And, you know, we spoke last week about um some of the sustainability things that Microsoft is doing at a global level and other companies as well. But um I do wonder if space and some of the work that you're doing in in the technology space space um will have a big impact on some of the on tackling some of the world's biggest environmental um challenges as well. Just purely from the perspective of having a holistic image, a holistic perspective on what's happening on the planet. Yeah, absolutely. Again, whether it's from um a spaceborn data perspective, uh using earth observation, geospatial data, um to understand the environment better and to watch change over time, uh whether it's, you know, degraded environments and understanding, um you know, how that's taking place that we can also look at it from an analytical perspective and understand where things may be headed. Um, you know, we've got incredibly powerful um data and AI capabilities that we can use to um take this data and under you know do predictive analytics whether it's from a sustainability environmental perspective or other you know business application um you know we are from an Azure space perspective uh developing uh technology around um four functional areas which are global connectivity geospatial analytics, Azure and space which is how do we take this incredible compute and advanced analytics capabilities out to onorbit platforms and then emulation and synthetics. Um this is how do we take uh we've got incredibly powerful gaming technology at Microsoft and emulation capabilities uh and we are um taking that and the ability to create synthetic data and bringing that together uh to create almost um a kind of a digital twin uh from a space perspective. Incredible. Um god. Yeah. Experience almost like a like through augmented reality as well. Is that is that or is it more from the data perspective? Yeah. So uh you know more from a a a data perspective. Uh we're taking payload satellite payload data in real time and creating it uh into an atscale emulation environment um so that you can uh almost envision an entire satellite constellation um and be able to apply analytics in that environment at scale. Um but you can absolutely apply augmented reality uh to to these um to these scenarios. as well. So, it really kind of So, I may end up on the moon by the sound of it. Well, one way or another, Lynn, I can see myself on the moon. It may not be real. Well, we've got some really neat uh use cases underway that are taking place on the International Space Station. Yeah. So, we uh have been working in partnership with HP and with NASA to run a number of uh use cases with Azure loaded on HP's uh spaceborn computer and we've been running some analytics uh advanced analytics use cases um for example we recently just did a use case around using computer vision with uh astronaut gloves and so what used to happen is astronauts would take hundreds of pictures of of their of their gloves which are an essential part of their their equipment and they'd send this information back to Earth and then it would get analyzed um by people to understand okay do we have wear you know you know too much wear on the glove is there a potential you know to um you know for the integrity of the glove to be compromised um all of that takes time you've got incredibly slow data rates you know going from the international space station back to Earth. Um, we looked at how can we take a picture of the glove, take computer vision, run models to detect what, you know, what what a, you know, I guess a healthy glove looks like, where what wear, um, is excessive, what's, you know, it would just it it's it's allowed us to rapidly characterize um, astronauts equipment and they can um, get a sense of where there might be issues in nearer real time and do that on board the the ISS. Um, so I think it's a really interesting example of using uh compute and using advanced analytics to push decisions out to to the edge. I mean, it's what we currently do from a terrestrial perspective. Uh, when you think about Azure edge capabilities and taking compute and analytics to the terrestrial edge. Now we're taking that out to uh to the ultimate edge and taking that out to space. I mean really this is about taking connectivity, compute and uh data and AI to to wherever it's needed and now including space and it's empowering the people for whom these decisions are going to be the most significant as well. So the astronauts can can be in control of their own equipment with information like that. which um I can imagine that use case is just one of probably millions that could be used to to do that. That's incredible, Lynn. It's, you know, I'm listening and feeling mildly annoyed because I'm sure you have the coolest job at Microsoft. Um and uh and I know that you've been building up a team of incredible talented people in the country. But I guess where we got connected was all the way um probably about a year ago and and we were talking about some of the challenges that you were finding in building your team of Top Gun um Azure space people here in Australia in particular in South Australia which is where I am based but um maybe you could just reflect quickly about some of the challenges you found in in building your team because I know you're you're looking at it from a couple of different angles uh diversity being one of them as well. Yeah, absolutely. So I uh arrived in Australia let's see February of last year uh and uh you know with the aim to build out the business here, build the team, build the strategy uh really you know bring Azure space um to Australia and and yeah bring it to life. And uh you know first things first I um I think I wrote the strategy on the plane ride over and in quarantine in the Sydney hotel. Um I had already been thinking I already been watching the industry here and and um engaged uh a bit from the US, but that that proved challenging with time zones and yeah and just really kind of the the opportunity and the amount of work there was to do. So um I was fortunate enough to be able to move here uh last year and um that's a bit of a story in it in its own. Maybe a separate podcast another time when that one. It was the Vegemite, wasn't it? It was the Veimite. The Veimite Jeremy here. Absolutely. Um tolerable with lots of butter. Uh so um yeah, so arrived here in February, you know, I had uh set set the strategy um had been watching the industry for quite some time. Uh knew what, you know, we were doing from a a technology engineering perspective in Azure space and um where I saw opportunities to partner uh and um and help enable the Australian um space community here. Uh but you know, first things first, I was to build out the team and uh so you know, incredible talent in in the industry here. Uh it's also a growing uh the Australian space industry is also a growing industry and continuing to evolve and it's it's rapidly evolving and it's been amazing to watch that rapid evolution. And like I said, there is absolutely incredible talent here in in the industry. And so I went out to build the team and you know, I saw right from the start it was, you know, incredibly competitive. It it was I mean, the pool is expanding, but it it was it was a pretty small um talent pool, right? U if if you're looking for specific experiences And I I really kept a broad perspective on um skill sets and experience and and what a person could potentially bring to to our team. Um but uh you know it it was a you know and as the industry is growing here of course many people are looking for for talent. So um it it was a bit competitive. Um but then I started looking at uh um diverse candidates and ensuring that I was looking at um you know all options for people to bring um talents and expertise uh into the picture as I was hiring the team and you know as I was looking for uh diverse candidates uh the the pool got small real fast um and you know I spent quite a bit of time looking across the nation working with our talent acquisition team And uh like I said, it just the pool got small fast and that really made an impression on on me um as I was hiring for the team and and kind of made that discovery. Uh you know, one I had already determined that um we needed to be a part of the growth of the industry. Yeah. And uh and part of that was the talent pool and and So uh you know I was thinking through how do we how do we support the growth of this industry and in supporting the growth of the industry including talent um how do we help build diversity um in this um in this growing industry. So that was you know really kind of the the first impression that I got. Um and I know we had a conversation I shared that observation with you and we just kind of continued to evolve that that discussion and uh um I know you could probably take the the rest of this discussion. Um I you and I had really kind of this shared passion about creating opportunities um and pathways for um you know for all people and including diverse talent into IT into the space industry. Um and so that you know conversation just really kind of evolved from there. Well, and it's um you know, I think it was the perfect time as well because we were looking at things that we might do to invest um in in this particular challenge and um uh spoiler alert I guess in terms of what we've done. Um so we we've recently had the opportunity to work with modus um and adeco to bring their um modus tech academy model to Australia which is like a super quick um skilling program that supports people to um either recent graduates or people who are returning to work or looking to pivot from another industry. Um so it supports them to get job ready skills in in new um job specific careers. So we looked at data analytics and we looked at creating a program specifically for women. Um and it's you know as um as a as we had the opportunity to focus here in South Australia, which is where the the Australian Space Agency was based. I I felt very passionate about creating opportunities for all South Australians to get access to this new industry of space. Um, and it isn't just necessarily the quintessential um sort of uh nerds um which I think was the word that you use, Lynn. Um you know, it's it's going to take lots of people from lots of different kinds of backgrounds to make the industry um successful and we know that in workforces that better reflect the societies in which they operate um are actually more successful anyway. So um yeah I think this is going to be a bit of an evolving um project in where we continue to work with the universities here in South Australia but also nationally and then look at the ways in which we can um connect women to the opportunities in the space um in the space industry, but I know that you've also done some really great and fantastic work in just connecting with women in the IT industry here in South Australia. Um, and I want to thank you and recognize you for all that work that you've done in terms of speaking to young women and girls in schools and speaking to women in the IT industry, but also that um incredible virtual mentoring session we did with the Office for Women. Um I I know that um it's a bit of a a a a side um well it's perhaps it's not a side hustle because it's part and parcel of your job but it may it's a it's a lot of work that you're you're doing to address this and you're doing an incredible job. Oh ditto Beth um I mean tech the tech start program uh you you brought that to life. You took our our conversation and identifying where there was a need and um and really just brought it to life with the the partners. And it's it's already been, you know, it takes it it takes every um you know, an issue isn't solved in a single moment. It it takes many moments of of um you know, kind of chipping away, if you will. And I know you and I talked about where do where do we start, right? If we're going to help with the Yeah. If we're going to help with the, you know, building out diversity in the industry and I know we're looking at the space industry and and it more broadly like where do you start because there's a whole pipeline from early years education to university to career and making sure that there's the right support network um for diverse people in their career because there are retention considerations there are you know making sure that people are in um supported for um their performance in terms of promotions. There are career changes. I mean there's a whole pipeline. I know you and I talked about where do we start? Uh and um you know we wanted to make we wanted to make an immediate impact and I think that was you know that was one area that was that we landed on with the tech start program which was how can we do one thing uh that will have the potential for immediate impact in the industry and uh and so I think that that's where we got with with Techart and and it's what it is you know we've we're creating yeah really you know practical microcredentiing um certifications in in areas that are of need in the space industry and um you know wrapping that with u industry mentoring networking with our partners from IT consulting and the space industry and it you know it creates that um you know the microsklling the exposure to the industry the opportunity to network um it's it's creating that that pathway and and the opportunity um I mean there's so much value even in creating a professional industry network uh so you know know off and running with the the tech start program. I know it'll it will evolve over time, but I think you know we had a tremendous response with what was it like over 200 women who applied to the first cohort. Yeah. Yeah. And um just had the first Yeah. first graduation and we we have our next cohort starting again in July. So it'll be another opportunity to to kind of test what we're doing. But Maybe if I could close out. I know that you missed the graduation event. Um and uh I I was um uh so disappointed that you couldn't see, you know, some of the women get up and talk about their experience, but there was one particular woman who um you know is so accomplished and intelligent and has just needed a little bit of confidence and reconnection with women in a professional setting. So she took some time off to have her children. And um and she told me afterwards actually that she was also um uh she also had um a battle with breast cancer during that time as well. And so she wrote a note to say that the Tech Start program has given her a third chance at life after she's, you know, had her career, had her children, recovered from breast cancer, and now she's she's landed an internship with um with one of our partners here. in Australia. And you know, I think one of the things that we find I personally think with skilling programs is that sometimes it's just so complex and difficult to know where to start that people don't start. I think you've got to start by starting and you know our program is only small at this stage but we we've started as you know by starting and we're learning as we go. Um so you know it's been such an exciting project to work with you um uh and yes to to bolder things. things for next financial year. But um if I can just close with a very controversial question and I'm I'm sure it's it's on the minds of everyone um thinking um about it. In fact, I have two questions. So I want to know a little bit more about what you think of Vegomite and then the other question is will I ever get to meet an alien in my lifetime? Is there intelligent life out there or even unintelligent life? I'm happy to I'm happy to meet that too. Oh, which is the harder question? Um, I love that. That's So, let's see. Um, like I said initially, anything can be solved with a lot of butter. Um, including Vegemite. So, um, my, uh, stepdaughter introduced me to, um, the the art of Vegemite on toast, and I noted that she had used nearly half a stick of butter. And and there was much discussion over um really veomite is it or is it just butter with a tiny bit of a speck of this salty whatever it is. Goodness, I think is the word you need. Goodness. It's certainly an acquired taste and I prefer it with lots of butter. All right. Well, I'm glad we've settled that one. Now, will I get to meet an alien then? Well, um I think you'll have to ask Elon Musk. that question also. Um, no, just kidding. Um, I I don't know. Um, I here's how I I view it. The I mean, you know, I think many of us have probably looked up at the the sky at night and just wondered and with awe and amazement and almost just in a way that's hard to process. And u I've I've actually never gazed up at the night sky so much as I have in in my time in Australia because if if you haven't viewed if you haven't viewed the night sky from the southern hemisphere from Australia just like it's I it blew my mind the first time I saw it. I was out here for work in Alice Springs about um 15 years ago and uh the team I was with pulled over in the middle of well I mean Alice Springs is the middle of nowhere but pulled over in the middle of nowhere at night and I got out and I they said look at the sky and I was complet completely blown away, speechless. And so I routinely go out like Milky Way gazing here. But um you know, when you think about we're we are one speck in this massive one speck h hurtling around one star, you know, of how many I don't even know if it's like trillions or gazillions or whatever the it is, but you know, we are one of so many in a mass and expanding universe. It's hard for me to imagine that we are the only um intelligent or potentially unintelligent life forms in this amazing universe. So um you know, wouldn't it be cool if if we could have that contact someday? But uh it's it's it's hard for me to think that we're the only uh the only ones in this universe that are um living our best lives. Yeah. Well, I 100% agree and look, we hold out hope that um you know, perhaps in 10 years we'll be talking about how um George Lucas had done such a lot of research to put together Star Wars just as we just as we uh have marveled at the research for Top Gun. Um and it may be that they are already here. So on that bombshell, um Lynn, it's just been so lovely to have the chance and the luxury of this time with you and I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I hope the listeners have enjoyed the conversation as well. We're super duper lucky to have Lynn in Australia, let alone part of our Microsoft family. Um, and she hasn't left um the Vegemite hasn't driven her away just yet. So, we're hoping and we will continue to watch with awe and wonder as you um grow your Azure space team and do this incredible work. Thank you, Lynn. Thanks, Beth. I I really treasure the time that I get to work with and and um discuss all these really interesting opportunities that we have here with you. So, thanks for this opportunity and um as always, it's a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you. Bye, everyone.

In this episode, Beth and Lee talk to Microsoft's Dave Andrews, Procurement Lead, about the issues around sustainability in the area of supply chains and procurement. From responsible air travel to diversity and inclusion in suppliers, we cover a lot!

Some useful links: Procurement | Microsoft Responsible Sourcing Recent article from Dave Andrews: From modern slavery to sustainability: A deep dive into responsible procurement – Microsoft Australia News Centre

Diverse business communities that Microsoft Australia works with include:

• Supply Nation
• WEConnect International
• Social Traders

GlobalSocial impact reporting and certifications:

• B Corp
• UN Global Compact

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 5

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hi and welcome back to the uh increasingly and again Beth we really got to think about changing the name the AI and education podcast that talks about almost everything other than AI and education. Uh Beth, how are you? I'm well thank you Lee. How are you? Did you enjoy a long weekend just now? I did. Yes, I did. Although Usually these things go by so quickly. And I remember my daughter said to me on I think it was on Saturday afternoon. She said, "Dad, it feels like Friday today." And I said, "Well, that's good because you know, actually we got this extra time." And I said, "But in my head, it feels like it's sun Monday evening, 9:00, and everything's about to come smack smacking me back in the face, but it's great to have the weekend off. Did you do anything fun with your weekend?" Oh, well, um, in some cases, yes. Although it always sounds more fun before you have the actual experience. So, we got a a puppy um on Friday. So this little kavoodle which um the kids have been looking forward to for months turned up and um and he was the the center of attention for you know an hour um before the novelty wore off and kids were bitten and messes were made on the floor. Yes. We've been trying to keep up with him ever since. So uh it's it's going to be a wild ride I think for the next um couple couple of weeks and then hopefully he'll settle down. But no, he's he's good fun. Um and uh and it should be it should be a a great experience um once I'm over the the sleepless nights. And it's it's like having a baby again. It is. It is. Yeah. We we we grabbed what we we grabbed we got a puppy during co uh who's now falling asleep next to me. He's 18 months old, so he's no longer a puppy anymore. But yes, that whole early stage, nobody talks about that. They talk about the magic of puppies, but early age puppies. We had to sleep on the floor next to him and take him out for a we every 20 minutes. Thankfully now we've got a dog that is pretty well house trained and I can tell you at that point it is a wonderfully like it's the best thing ever. Um except for the fact he he does take up the bed space but um but no loving having a puppy. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you know the other problem I have with a long weekend is you never leave me alone in front of my computer too long and if I can open up eBay or Amazon or anything like that because I tend to make rash purchases and I started down a journey of going a bit nostalgic. In fact, I'm going to show you this on the camera. Apologies for people who are not here. I went out and bought this thing. Now, this is a Nomad jukebox. See, it's a circa 1999 MP3 player because I started having one of those nostalgia moments like, "Oh, I remember the tech I used to use." And I've now acquired through eBay purchases three or four of these ancient MP3 players that will be of no use to me whatsoever. I don't know what I'm going to do with them. So, long weekends probably not, but I've got it just in case. This one was sealed. brand new from like 1999. It was actually still had. So yeah, it's great that sex, you know, is the Walkman making a a comeback anytime soon. Well, this is an interesting link because we're going to we're talking about things that have lasted a long time. We're talking about sustainability and we had this whole conversation last podcast about sustainability. Uh but Beth, I think today you've brought along a really interesting gu. Oh, by the way, for folks know Dan today, Dan couldn't make it so you just got Beth and I and our guest. But Beth, I'll let you introduce our guest today. Yeah, thank you. So, uh, we are joined today by a wonderful Microsoft colleague, Dave Andrews. Dave is, um, a partner of both of ours, I think, across lots of different projects. And, um, having worked with people in this area before, I think we're really blessed to have someone with Dave's passion and experience um, and sense of humor in regard to the work that he does. So, hi Dave. Thanks for joining us. Hey Beth. Hey Lee. Thanks for the invite. Ah, it's great to see you. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do at Microsoft? Yeah, sure Beth. Um, well, my my role at Microsoft is uh the procurement lead for Australia and New Zealand and we've got an outstanding group of procurement professionals that work at Microsoft. We've got over 260 professionals, but lucky for me, I'm the single representative across the Australian and New Zealand markets. And and my job essentially is to to to be the account lead or the director of procurement looking after um all of the needs of our business and that spans every business group that lands in our country from our data center team to our quantum team uh to our marketing and operations team philanthropies team and even sometimes when Lee gets a bit curious about old technologies you might have a a chat to me about that as well um but I I think the the important part for me I'm lucky to represent a lot of our core services Um, and I'm lucky to to represent this cap company and have an opportunity to to follow a lot of my passions, one of which is procurement, but also inclusive procurement and and how we apply technology moving forward. So that's awesome, Dave. And yes, now I know I'll go to you to buy old stuff. You can get me better prices. Um, but like so you say procurement a lot there and I I mean I don't know what the word means, but kind of in real terms that means that whenever Microsoft buys something for us to use, it goes through you and your team. Is that kind of how it In reality, it works. I think uh in the olden days, Lee, yes, when when your uh MP3 player was new, that is probably how um procurement was looked at. But I think as we have evolved, procurement has really had to look at itself in a different way. Um we I often use the analogy that sometimes the most powerful thing a procurement professional uh can do is know when to get out of the room. Um and the the feeling that we know when to get out is because we have coached, educ educated and mentored the business on how to do procurement well. Um we we sometimes forget that people procure things every single day. Um what we're really here to do is empower Microsoft employees to procure things in a compliant way, make sure they get great value for money, but above everything, make sure they drive great business impact and outcomes. Um and uh my philosophy is really uh around uh empowering people to do that independent of us. Uh we provide the structures, we provide the policies, the frameworks, the tools. Um but ultimately we need to support our stakeholders to do procurement effectively and efficiently without having to engage us every single day. Um if if that was if they engage me every single day, I'd have over three and a half thousand stakeholders talking to me every single day. Some days it feels like I have that many stakeholders. case of me, but it's more important that we play an advisory role and really help the business achieve the outcome that they want in the time frame they want with the budget that they have. Well, I mean you absolutely in all seriousness you lead to that issue of scale like you are one team and there are literally hundreds of thousands of people across Microsoft and certainly thousands in Australia who are buying stuff all the time. So that so I got to ask because obviously you know from a tech point of view how do you do you use technology to scale out a function you do to like all the things you said about getting the best price and being compliant. How is that a technology function that works there? Yeah, the the the longer we we work in procurement, the more we figure out we're actually using and leveraging technology in really powerful ways to enable us to scale. If if you were to look at a procurement department in Australia or New Zealand that managed the similar level of spend that goes through our Australian New Zealand businesses, we'd probably have 20 people there late to be frank managing procurement. end to end. Um, lucky for me, we have one. Um, or or is that unlucky? I'm not entirely sure. Um, uh, but we can only do that through the appropriate use of technology. Um, and we continue, uh, to talk about digital transformation. I actually like to flip that around, Lee, to be digital evolution because I transformation kind of tells us that there's an end date. Um, uh, and I don't think the, uh, transformation and evolution of procurement and the technology we use will stop. We've got some really innovative projects that we're working on, some really uh strong guided buying experiences for our employees, uh leveraging um uh artificial intelligence, uh leveraging uh chat bots to help people with a guided buying experience. How can we help you buy a good or a service on behalf of our company without having to engage procurement uh in the best possible way? Um uh how can we identify uh risks in our supply chain. How can we ensure that we're uh creating an inclusive economy? And there's so many different ways that we can adopt our own technology uh and leverage some existing technology to ensure we're doing that efficiently. And Dave, you were talking there about inclusive procurement and in inclusive economies. I know that you do some really amazing work to uh create um economic opportunities for indigenous businesses um as part of that Microsoft ecosystem. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Sure, Beth. And and when I talk about inclusive economy, I always like to talk about it um as uh supporting all underrepresented groups in our economy and and in Australia, New Zealand's case, that would be indigenous businesses, womenowned businesses, and social enterprises. Um so what we do as a as a company is we're really focused on trying to identify suppliers that can help us solve business problems that are representative of those underrepresented groups. We've got some really great partnerships with intermediaries in our um in these countries that help us identify these businesses. Uh and what it's uh what it really uh takes from there is for us to understand capability and capacity of those businesses and really it takes me trying to introduce those businesses to stakeholders in our business where I think they can help solve their business problem. Um, and I think uh that to me is something that I'm super passionate about. I think we uh quite often underestimate the power of these businesses. Uh these businesses are actually the nursery for future talent of indigenous employees, whether that be at Microsoft or another business. They're they're still the nursery for womenowned talent uh sorry women um uh talent in our workforce as well. We've got some outstanding womenowned business. and social enterprises are creating opportunities for people people that are disproportionately disadvantaged in our economy. People with a disability, people that may not have an opportunity to be employed. We've had some really great outcomes in using social enterprises um to employ people um uh that have autism uh and they've driven some great business outcomes in in Microsoft and I hope that continues moving forward. So, If I can ask and this is probably a difficult question to ask but like obviously by doing that and being a company that kind of distributes its procurement across a broader range of dis as you say dis disadvantaged or disrepres under underrepresented communities. Obviously there's good in that that we are injecting wealth or the distribution of money into sectors of society that aren't always necessarily as well represented. So it's kind of good for everybody in that way. But I assume there's more to it than that. I mean there we're actually getting the as you sort of touched on then there really unique value and experiences from these groups because they are so underrepresented but they represent something really unique to Microsoft. Is that how we kind of see procurement as a as a mechanism? I think the the there's a lot of uh conscious and unconscious bias associated with empowering or creating an inclusive economy. Um and a lot of people have a perception that this is a handout. Um and what I'm going to tell you is uh these businesses are amazing. businesses that are extremely capable and can do the job. What they've struggled with Lee is opportunity. Um big c big companies like Microsoft uh or our peers, we quite often like to play with other big companies. We think that reduces our risk. We think they will have all of the standards and policies required to do business with a company like us. Um and we believe based on their scale, it's going to enable us to um drive outcomes whether we have higher demand or lower demand in a more efficient way to be honest. Um I I think that simplification of a really complex landscape of suppliers um and in my experience the thing that we need to focus on above everything else is creating equity and opportunity. Um these businesses are capable. They're super competitive. They're just not given a chance to bid on work. Um so when I talk about creating a more inclusive economy, what I'm really trying to create is an opportunity bias for these business owners to bid on work for companies like us. They're not going to win everything, but what they do win, they're going to win on merit. Uh and they're going to excel. They're going to be supported, and that's going to help them grow. Uh the power of winning one job for us uh uh can be amplified throughout a a supplier's history and and future. I I think um the the impact of working for Microsoft has been extremely significant for a lot of the underrepresented business owners that we've engaged today. And Dave, just in terms of I I think that point is so important that we're we're awarding this work on the basis of merit and the fact that the companies can actually do it as well. Do you think that um you know that said there's a a role for a company like Microsoft to play in helping to build the capacity of some of these smaller suppliers. Um even as you look um and and your role is quite interesting. Because not only are you looking at the procurement piece, but as we're talking about partners and the procurement supply chain, we're also talking about how these partners might straddle into our partner ecosystem and work with our customers. Um and and that's where I see that there is some opportunity for us to support those businesses to build their skills to, you know, improve their tech technical skills and understand how some of these technologies are growing and shaping so that they can become more competitive. Do do you think that there's a role for Microsoft to play in in helping those organizations flourish? Absolutely, Beth. Um I I think if not us, who? Right. If if we're not here to empower businesses to achieve more, who is ultimately that's our company's mission? And I think the the challenge that we have in such a dynamic business like Microsoft is people see this as a risk. They see providing a business a new business an opportunity to uh win and execute work is a risk to them. Um and I kind of challenge that because we we provide businesses opportunities to win work or execute work for us all the time. The perception of uh these diverse businesses or underrepresented group uh owned businesses is it's a risk. It's no different to providing a new company a job at Microsoft. And I think the the thing that we need to do is really remove that conscious or unconscious bias really look at the the the objective look at the ability of this business to achieve that objective and then provide them an opportunity and help them be successful. Um I I think the the role of large organizations uh in procurement particularly we we saw our role to aggregate spend which we basically said oh well if we aggregate we get better value for money simple economics um and what we're finding is local businesses um as well as diverse businesses really have a competitive advantage in our market. Our market is a high-cost labor market. Um, and when you're applying those labor costs from international businesses as well as their corporate overhead and their profit expectations, a lot of Australian businesses and a lot of small and medium businesses um in Australia and New Zealand have a competitive advantage. They can do the job cheaper. They're here. They understand the market. So, I think our role is creating the opportunity um uh and building their capacity through building more and more opportunity off the back of that. The one of the the biggest issue we have, Beth, is typically if a business is successful at Microsoft, we make them drink from the fire hose. Um they have one job and then they have 50. Um and my job is to manage the expectations of our stakeholders and limit our exposure um uh exposing that business to too much work too soon. David, it's you were talking there a bit about kind of local businesses and I know you corrected us ear on this. You know, this isn't just an indigenous business challenge. This is about all sorts of underrepresented groups. But it kind of got me thinking because last week when we had the podcast, we talked about sustainability and we talked about the issues of supply chain sustainability and the fact that, you know, there's so much stuff that goes into the creation of any one product, service or offering that may well be out of your hands. So, how do you like I I can see how you've got this purview of perhaps the Australian market. You know, you can you can engage with that. You can see local suppliers and work with them, but how do you find all of these potential suppliers? And then how do you really understand the entire supply chain? How how does someone in your role think about, you know, the very raw materials that go into some of our products? I that must be a real issue. I'd love to learn how you've how you've thought about that problem. U absolutely it is an issue. Lee, I was talking to to one of our great partners, customers and suppliers um Telstra last week about this very issue. How do we know uh where uh we have supply chain risk? It's it's extremely complex problem. And when I talk about supply chain risk, I talk about things like conflict minerals. I talk about things like modern slavery. I talk about things uh like uh supporting underrepresented groups through economic empowerment. There's so many different things that we need to have an impact on. And that's not even talking about sustainability in its in the word sense of environmental impact. What are we doing to reduce our carbon footprint, reduce our use of water, um and uh also reduce waste. I mean as a as a function procurement is essentially driving these initiatives for global organizations whether that be Microsoft, Amazon, Google, uh Telra, uh BHP, Bilitin, Riotinto um and why is procurement driving it is probably the next question because most of these risks sit in our supply chain. Most of these businesses do not execute all of the work required to produce the products that they're generating revenue from. So procurement is tasked uh with uh driving transparency in that supply chain. Um and we're look really looking to technologies and and a lot of great startups in our ecosystem to support um uh our ability to drive that transparency report on our current state and then uh develop action plans for progress moving forward. It's So interesting, Dave. How do you how do you look at creating a a forward perspective when a lot of these a lot of the things that we've seen just in the last 3 years, you know, we we've had a global pandemic, um the issue in Ukraine with um with the Russia um invasion, we've had microchip shortages, like you there is a lot happening in the world, some of which would be quite hard to have predicted. um at least maybe it's possible to predict at some point we're going to have a p pandemic but it would have been impossible to determine exactly when. How do you how do we think about when these things are likely to happen? Is there a way for us to mitigate against these types of risks? Look, I think I think you're probably asking a question uh and this is something that um agitates me a little bit about procurement professionals approaches to developing strategy and I think we need to consider that uh historical spend does not equal future demand. Uh and how are we bridging that gap? How are we uh looking at our business and the way the way it's moving and trying to predict their needs moving forward? And there's a lot of heads of procurement and chief procurement officers that are trying to tackle this problem at the moment. And there's a lot of really great technology solutions that are in the market that are trying to use AI and ML to predict future demand and in particular one of our partners Robo Buy is doing a great job in in analyzing historical spend and looking at future opportunities and future demand opportunities. I I think we as procurement professionals put a lot of faith in uh spend analytics. Uh we we spend a lot of time looking at what we've done over the last two or three years uh in the hope that it's going to help us drive better strategies moving forward and predict predictable uh it better enables us to have predictable supply solutions um for our stakeholders. The the one thing that we want to move away from is being that roadblock. Uh and why are we that roadblock in some businesses? Um we're that roadblock because demand has changed. We need a new solution. Therefore, we need to go through a process and sometimes in in our company that process can take six months. In other companies, it can take 12 to 18 months um to actually put the right supplier agreement in place to meet that new demand. So, how are we actually trying to predict the future? How are we adopting technology to help us do that? Um I I think that's a million dollar billion dollar question for for most CPOS and it'll be interesting to see and listen to um a person like Lee's perspective on on how we could possibly do that. Maybe we need to start developing our own solution there. Lee, oh, can I come in on this deal? I don't I've got the answer to that. But what you just said triggered a thought because, you know, sitting in the responsible AI world, what we there's some similarities in so much as we there's a lot of ambiguity with AI. We don't know what's happening. You know, we're working with data to create an outcome and there's no correlation necessarily between what happened before and what's going to happen in the future. That's kind of the sort of beauty of AI systems. So, in order to embibe that sense of of trust in the system, and I think about that, you know, trust in the sense of a uh your supply chain mechanisms or the process by which people procure through. In in responsible AI worlds, we create a consistency of process. So, you never know what the outcome's going to be, but you always know what process you're going to have to follow to get through that process. And you mentioned people like Robo that are obviously using technology and AI or intelligence at least to automate some of that process. Is that how you like do we do some of that here in Microsoft or do you see that as being a an a mechanism to create a simplified or consistent experience? So, I'm just putting it in context like someone like like me who says to you, I okay, I need to get some equip I need to buy something for a particular event we're doing or for a piece of work we're doing. I wouldn't know where to go and find an indigenous partner or or or an unrepresented partner. I wouldn't know the process because I do it so infrequently in Microsoft. I could be put off really quickly because of those challenges. Do you use technology to help me as an internal procurement person do be better by giving me consistency? Yeah, absolutely. Lee, we attempt to is probably the answer. Whether we do it well enough right now and uh whether we need to evolve how we're doing it. I think the answer to that question is yes. Um when when we um uh if we look historically at where procurement thought technology was going to help them, we thought cataloges was going to be the answer for everything. Lee, we we thought if we've got a catalog, we can create a marketplace. Lee can go knock himself out and purchase whatever he wants through a marketplace. But what we're finding is the nuance and the slight differences in the services environment as opposed to the goods means cataloges are really hard um for us to use. Um we we're now adopting um uh different uses of technology. Uh we we're actually using a free freelancer services platform for professional services. That tool is called Upwork. Um and that really helps us uh shape a guided buying experience for people with professional services. Right now that guided buying experience is supported by people lee but in the future we'd love it to be supported by artificial intelligence. Um I I think when we look at goods there's some really great uses of technology right now. We talked about procuring devices before. Uh if someone wants to go and p purchase a surface we're currently triing the use of chat bots. Uh they might go through um uh a a process to uh identify the the device they need that's completely guided by a chatbot. Uh it'll be based on your previous purchase. Uh it'll be uh then amended to meet the current spec of the devices that are on the market in a similar way to to the way you might look at it, Lee. Um and then it would provide you some options to say here's three devices we think meet the spec that you need to do your job. Um which one would you like to purchase? Um and by clicking a button, all the other procurement activity that sits off the back of that raising requisition, purchase order approval, um all the delivery information sits uh and is done in an automated way uh through the appropriate uses of our technologies and that makes a lot of sense. You're automating that process stuff that is you know that that can be automated because once the decisions the com the bit that's not automatable somewhat is the kind of the making the right decision but once the decision is made the process is pretty automatable but you talk you know that that when you talk about that idea of the catalog and I remember trying to buy stuff from Microsoft online tools back in maybe five or 10 years ago. It was painful as all but but but the catalog almost denies that issue you brought up up front which is around how that's about de-risking things by putting things in boxes and saying okay well this all looks like buying you know t-shirts and swag and this all looks like buying event gear and it's hard to find the individual one. So I love the idea of a chatbot or some mechanism that guides me asks me the right question but guides me towards things that I wouldn't have seen otherwise. And I think that's a really that's a great outcome of that. But look I I think that um you know there's probably a lot of technology use and ways that technology can automate that be used in that process because I think that's that's one of the great things I see about AI is that it creates I think you said the personalized experience my procurement experience is going to be entirely different to to Beth's you know and and even though we're integrating with the same system I don't know Beth you any thoughts or comments there. Yeah it's it's really interesting I think that technology can certainly play a role in trying to get us all to think differently about how we go through this process. But I also think perhaps some of the magic of what you do, Dave, especially around the internal evangelism is about um you getting people to stop and think about how they can use their their money that they're already intending to invest in buying a good or service in a different way. So it's more mindful and you know getting people to actually actively think about their procurement choices is is part of the benefit. of what we're doing. So whilst you want technology to help um guide the process, I think the important thing is that you're asking people to engage in some decision making which asks people to you know actively think about how how they can achieve more with the same amount of money. And I guess that was the question I was going to ask you Dave. It's um every time we have a conversation I I feel more excited about procurement than I ever thought was possible. um certainly based on um working with with this um kind of area and previous companies. The way you approach it is really really exciting. Do you feel like this is a way of actually really getting people to and companies to drive more um environmental and social outcomes at scale? And is what you're doing also sort of cascading into people's personal lives in in what they do and how they spend their money as well. Do you think? Um, so I'd probably answer the last question first. I hope so, Beth. I hope every single person I talk to at Microsoft thinks about the way they purchase and how that money is impacting their community, uh, how that money is impacting the environment, uh, and what they can do every single day to make better decisions to support both. I think the challenge that we have when we talk about um, making better decisions to create a more inclusive economy or making better purchasing decisions to support our sustainability objectives. To be frank, no large or organization that has a climate target can meet it without procurement. Right? No, no, no business that has a target create a more inclusive economy can do it without procurement. Um, and I'm not saying procurement as the function. I'm saying procuring goods and services are going to be critical to them meeting the targets that they've set in their organization and what what is the procurement functions role in that. Um I would say it's to empower people to do this in the simplest way possible. So making sure when you're making a guided buying experience the recommendations are sustainable options, the recommendations are inclusive businesses. Um it doesn't uh one of the things I found in my journey is people are more likely to purchase from an underrepresent group if they don't know they're an underrepresented group. They're just looking at the facts of what the business is capable of and how commercially competitive they are rather than questioning whether this business that's a small and medium business could do the job because they're womenowned. I find that ridiculous. Um for me, we as procurement need to help our business make better purchasing decisions to help us meet these targets that we've set which are extremely critical for our communities and our countries and and and the world to be frank. Um and to do that we need to um make sure these guided buying experiences are putting every possible uh solution in place to simplify the selection of the right business for the right outcome. And that outcome isn't just money anymore. Um procurement needs to have a whole view of this and I like to turn that the total business requirement. Your budget is one indicator of success. Your commit to reducing um carbon is another. Your commitment to creating a more inclusive economy is another. Your commitment to eradicating modern slavery in a supply chain is another. Um so there's so many layers to this and the complexity of the risk profile uh and the potential impacts of those risks if they're not dealt with in the appropriate way um is is what makes procurement beautiful at times. We need to simplify that for our buyers. So they can make decisions independent of us. So our organization as a whole can meet all those targets. Yeah. To to kind of question. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh the the the the way that we make purchasing decisions needs to empower every person in our organization to make the best decision and that's not just price. Um and I think the more that we all understand and have visibility to how impactful our decisions are and uh in terms of who we purchase from, the better we're all going to be at that. And and I see that as a core part of my job and probably the part of my job I'm most passionate about is helping people understand the impact of the money that they spend in our community to drive these outcomes that that we're all so invested in. Dave Dave, your passion just shines through and I know every time we talk about this, I can just sense how much this is not just a job for you, but it is a labor of love in the way that do this. But, you know, we've talked you you talked a lot there about kind of how you do the job to help people inside Microsoft be better and and do better and make these better decisions. I'm kind of keen. Last question from me. If we were looking at to our audience and maybe there's some people out there who are underrepresented or have our own business or are seeking that way into not just Microsoft but into the industry as a whole. What you do you have any words of advice or guidance to people in that position? How do they break down that door of the Microsoft procurement engine or any others and become part of that? system. This is this is always I get this question a lot, Lee, and I I always become a little bit You got a perfect answer then, I'm sure. Yeah. I I think um the the best thing to say is persistence and determination are omnipotent, right? They're all powerful. It's the one thing that is going to help you as an underrepresented business find other work. The challenge that uh these business owners have have typically uh is they they can't find the door. The front door is non-existent. They might be bashing on a on a door in a company which will never open. So um the the best way to uh drive uh these opportunities is becoming members of intermediaries. Intermediaries like supply nation for indigenous businesses. So or or or Amotai in New Zealand. Uh social traders or Akina Um so Australia and New Zealand uh we connect international um these intermediaries will allow you to connect with people in these organizations that are focused on this work from a sustainability point of view. There's a there's a great business called Givable that's starting to certify and register not only um uh diverse business ownership but they're also starting to measure and track impact against sustainability certifications across the globe. Um you should be looking at uh trying to enroll your business on their platform. There's lots of other platforms that are really looking to to drive the same. And I think as we as large businesses start to focus on this, I I actually see more progress in the medium and small business sector uh than I do at Microsoft. Um I'd challenge any business owner that's listening to this podcast to identify any business in their local community that's uh um uh owned by an indigenous person or or woman or or is a a social enterprise and go and support them. Um go and buy from them. Use the power of your dollars to help them because the more that we get support in the small and medium business sector, the more that we get support in the the large corporate business sector and the public sector, the more these businesses are going to thrive. And uh I think the last thing that I typically say here is uh procurement isn't your buyer, right? We don't have budget. Uh so make sure you're always talking to the person who's your buyer, making sure that you're always pushed to talk to the ultimate decision maker. Um because sometimes procurement can be a roadblock. Um but they should be there to empower you and their organization to do more. Um uh and where you're feeling a little bit of strain or or resistance, just be persistent. Um your opportunity will come eventually. That's so brilliant, Dave. I always feel inspired um when you talk. Um, that said, I was thinking with sympathy about your family and friends um because you must have um a hell of a a dinner party conversation or especially if you're going to a restaurant and you're procuring dinner and drinks must be um just a super quick question. Do you ever allow yourself an impulse buy? Even if it's um you know a in your personal life, do you do that? And what was the last impulse buy that you had? Well, I'm going to give away one of my passions here. I love golf. I I play golf all the time. My last impulse buy was a a a nice new driver for myself. And thankfully, or unthankfully, it hasn't helped me at all. So, maybe I need to think about those impulse decisions, Beth. Um but I I definitely think um we we all have room uh to to impulse buy. Um but fundamentally, when I'm making a large purchase decision, Beth. Uh, the facts are the things that rule my decision-making process and, um, I think my family and friends know one thing about me. They know that I'm not driven by emotion. Um, so when I see people that do, that's when they get the tough questions. Uh, so um, I would encourage everyone just to take the emotion out of their purchasing decisions. They'll get much better outcomes. Yeah, I love that. I'm going to say that exact thing when I take my daughter to Kmart next time and we're going past the Barbie section. Good luck with that. Yeah, it's awfully emotional um in Kmartat sometimes. Dave, thank you so much for your time. It's um yeah, it's great to be able to share these insights with people. I think uh you know, if we could clone you and um make you available to to our customers and partners, the world would be a better place. But I'm sure you're one of many people who are on this crusade for more um impact through procurement. So, thank you again for sharing those insights. Thanks, Beth. And and I'm definitely one of many people that are focused on this. And uh to all those people that are listening, just keep going. Um the the if we're better tomorrow than we were today, we're all going to achieve what we want to achieve. And I I think the ultimate thing for us is if we can meet these targets for sustainability, if we can create a more inclusive economy, we're really going to stop the division we see in the world. I think um a lot of division is caused through through investment. And um we can we can change that in in every single part of our life, even with our impulse buys. Love it. Well, I'm going to have to wrap up there. I can see that I've made um a sacrifice of a Javiana thong. The puppy has chewed through my single plugger. So, I might need to go and procure myself some new footwear. But thanks again. Good to catch up with you, Lee. And you too. Thanks, Beth. And thanks Dave again. Wonderful time. Wonderful session. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Oh, heat.

In this episode, Beth, Dan, and Lee talk about the issues around sustainability in technology. From rare-earth metals to the human costs of technology we will examine the high-level points.  

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 4

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hello everybody and welcome back to the um increasingly confusingly titled AI and education podcast where we very occasionally will talk about education and AI sometimes even in the same sentence but always talk about something fun and interesting I hope. Um look it's been a while for me personally um since I wasn't able to in the last discussion on Girl Geeks. Um, it's great to be back in the recording studio and welcome back to my two co-hosts, Beth and Dan. Say hello. Hello, Lee. Hi, Dan. Hi, Beth. How are you? It's freezing in Sydney at the minute. I got my You know, if this was a video podcast, you'd see me in my uh hoodie freezing in the corner. I think that might be better than if it was really cold and we were you were sitting there in your shorts and your stubbies and nothing else. That might be not so good. Eh, that's very true. turn off your camera in that in that context. And it's it's glad that there's no video footage accompanying this podcast, I've got to say. No, no, it is. It is so cold. It is so cold. I know it must be cold because the dog who normally will just sit around is now sitting on my bed curled up under my bed sheets. It must be cold for them. So, wow. It's cold in Adelaide as well. I'm I'm trying to warm myself up. I'm actually in the office today where it's Tim Tam Friday. Um so, we are doing uh some Tim Tams as just me and one other person. So, it's uh about 12 Tim Tams each. That's a good ratio. And being in the office is great as well because I was in I I traveled to see some customers. So, I went to Adelaide uh last Wednesday and then to Melbourne and then to Tazzay to to catch up with people you haven't seen for ages. And it's great to be out and about and and talking to people and and just uh you know being around I suppose and actually seeing people face to face. I don't know about you so much. I I just can't believe how much you miss that human face to face contact. And it whilst it's amazing to be at home and to be connected from to everyone wherever you are, nothing beats that ability to to see someone face to face and to give them, you know, a co safe hug or a the touch of the elbows. Is that sort of a one one and a half meter distance hug? Is it where you don't actually touch but you Show them that you're hugging them. Yeah, I can see how that works. Exactly. Well, look, you know, it's quite interesting. We're talking about how cold it is and the climate. We're talking about traveling and the impact of getting back into planes, which probably leads us to our topic for this uh for this podcast. Beth, do you want to give us a bit of a where are we going today? Yeah, sure. Thanks, Lee. So, today what we wanted to to explore and discuss is the the um interesting area of sustainability. And I don't know about you both, but certainly in South Australia um with a change of state government as well as national government, there seems to be a real point of reset around the climate um climate issues and looking in a more um you know proactive, I would say perhaps more positive outlook on what we can do to use uh the climate emergency as um an opportunity for our state and for our country and look at the ways in which technology can play a role in um tackling some of these challenges and certainly um you know with this recognition that that we're facing some fairly significant challenges but I think technology as a lens through which to look at this is one way that we can really put our problem solving hats on to to look at what what are the things that we can do to tackle some of these issues. Uh what we have also seen overnight was the launch of the cloud for sustainability that Microsoft has made available to people. So, I'm personally looking forward to getting to know a little bit more about that offer over the next couple of weeks. And this it's it's really good that we're going to be be talking about this actually because I think this is going to lead into a series of discussions based on what we talk about today. But the the interesting thing for us like really resetting back and Lee, I hope we can talk about Kate Crawford's book in a little while because um It was a bit of an epiphany for me because we're talking about AI and she really uh dug down, excuse the pun, into the earth and and precious metals and the things that are needed uh to actually create the technology. Um and I know you mentioned a couple of times Lee and Beth when we're talking about things like Bitcoin and crypto and things the cost of actually maintaining things like the blockchain. So when we're talking about sustainability, it has has a kind of juxtapositional effect for us because we're talking about AI but the amount of compute you need for AI can also connect the dots together. So it be interesting to see how where we going to take this Lee. Well I think and you're right Dan I mean and Beth you know great the fact that it is becoming so important but what I'm finding personally about the whole sustainability narrative is the broadness and the complexity of that topic when we say sustainability and it's almost not so it's become a buzz word but it's become this thing we we talk about it's on our you know ESG policies. It's in there as a part of one of these things. But what does it really mean? Because there are many ways you can go down that path. And Dan, yeah, we'll certainly talk about the the impact of AI in a world of of uh of sustainability from a carbon point of view. But then Beth, you know, I know you've been, you know, your work in social value gets you in all sorts of conversations that aren't just about sustainability from a carbon perspective, which is I think is where we largely land on. So I don't know, maybe Beth, you're a maybe let's start with you because I know you've got a kind of viewpoint that is perhaps a bit broader than just the traditional, you know, tech and carbon footprint story that we always hear. Yeah. So, I think I think there's a greater appreciation for a broader interpretation of what sustainability might include. So, yes, of course, carbon emissions and and understanding, managing and measuring and reducing carbon emissions is core to what needs to happen at a global scale. But you look at Microsoft's uh sustainability commitments and includes elements like water and waste um and and we have some incredibly ambitious um targets and you know when they were announced I was actually blown away by what it was that we were intending to achieve in the world. Um deeply thoughtful approach to in our environmental impact and going beyond what we have uh created in terms of um a detrimental effect to the to the environment to to think about what else we could do in a proactive and positive way. So um so I have spent a lot of time looking at um some of the colleagues that we have around the world and some of their thoughtful ways to um tackle issues like water, waste and carbon. And then we're also looking at ecosystems as well and this fascinating in um ambition to create a planetary computer. So looking at how we might combine data sources from around the world to to better understand how the planet works and use that data then to be better at preserving the important things that we have um that and you that we frankly rely on to to live. But um I guess in in terms of sustainability conversations that we're having in Australia, it can it can extend into things like how we might uh better understand and mitigate elements of our supply chain, which might include things like human slavery. And um and then also uh diversity in the in the supply chain all the way through to um employee education and advocacy and um you know what we can you sometimes these issues can feel overwhelm overwhelming and so we spend a lot of time at Microsoft and also in the community in in relation to supporting people to um understand what's happening, but to use it as an opportunity not to be overwhelmed, but to feel like positive and practical action is still worthwhile and that we can all play a part. I It's interesting you mentioned that overwhelming thing, Beth, because that's something I think that, you know, I talk to kids about it and talk to people around this idea of sustainability and everybody has the the desire to want to do better. You know, I mean, nobody would ever say, you know, I want to do more damage, please. But the kind of the overwhelming scale of the problem must be a really big challenge for people and you know the work that you do working in in sort of that more of that social impact of tech and social impact of uh the work we do generally what like kind of do you see examples of that do you hear people just kind of not knowing where to start because there is so much to do in this in this space absolutely Lee so I think it's it can feel overwhelming to a lot of people and and a lot in fact actually again overnight there was an event event that has been recorded that I'm keen to catch up on that touches on things like um uh mental health and sustainability and and climate change and some of the elements um relating to that. So it was an event for Microsoft staff and it it does worry me that um you as a parent with a child who is still in primary school not only what might she inherit by the time she finishes school, but also what are the messages that she's hearing at school because I don't want her to feel necessarily like there's no hope and that um you know things we can't still turn this around. But at the same time, I think the narrative around a sense of urgency is is it's impossible to um it's impossible to avoid. It does make me think that that language um you it all has to come down to positive practical action that we can take and as technology can play an interesting role in trying to capture that activity, gamify that activity and share that activity with peer networks as a way of incentivizing people to do more. But I also wonder as human beings who are motivated um back in the time that we were living in caves perhaps to respond to more immediate emergencies if we have language that makes this feel more immediate. Perhaps that will actually encourage us to to actually do something about some of these challenges and um you we as a international community have faced challenges before and we have stepped up to address these challenges. I I still remember we were worried about the the ozone hole um when I was at high school and that seemed to be Armageddon at the time. when I was at school and I fully appreciate that this is a lot more of a complex issue but I I feel like it's there's still room for optimism um and and I'm looking at focusing on that certainly for the sake of my my daughter. That's a really interesting point that you bring up the ozone because of course I mean I remember at school and this was you know the the the holes in the ozone were this kind of this world ending catastrophe but but your point around language is is maybe the key thing here is because when we talk about these things and I know this has come up in a lot of the political rhetoric as well. It's the words you use define the way in which action is prioritized, you know, and people can make something seem incredibly important by the right words and by right actions and you know often we we fail on that. But it's interesting you make that because I I never really thought about it from that point of view of you know all those years ago the the the starting of what was the climate change challenge of you know breaking up of the ozone and these issues um which are all connected to the problems we're now facing. you know, around around carbon emissions, but because we didn't talk about it in that way. We didn't talk about it in that kind of it was a thing that was happening, but we didn't really kind of put the urgency on it. So, yeah, it's it's great you bring it up. Thank you. Yeah. And I Yeah, I agree. And I think when you when you step back as well, it's good to see from a a thousand foot perspective, isn't it? Because I know we recently released a report, didn't we? Um uh you know, about Australia and the businesses, uh I think it was about a third of businesses were going to miss they are net zero targets by 2050. Um you know there's it's about everybody the complexity of this and we look at it a bit a little bit later but the complexity it's on everybody isn't it you know one one person you've talked about there water you know it go it goes so far you know um waste you know the electricity production that you know I know I'm I zoned in on the on the kind of technology and the kind of lithium and all this kind of stuff in my mind at the beginning but actually you know seeing that and thinking about that fuller context is really really positive. Thanks Beth. And scary actually. Uh yes, of course. And look, I'm not I I think we also come at this angle from the point of view of being incredibly privileged to be living in a country where um we have the resources to protect ourselves and our families from the worst effects. And it it goes, you know, it's important to note that the tragedy that climate change will wreak on the people who have had the least role to play in creating this problem in the first place. You that is deeply unjust. But for me, I think um and working in the technology industry, necessity is is the mother of invention. And you we know and we have the the benefit of working with some of the most creative problems solvers. Again, the problem can't be solved through technology alone. But with companies like Microsoft and other organizations swinging behind this with the political will with a sense of emergency, it is creating a movement and a um you know I I think the energy has moved from this political football perhaps that has been historically especially here in Australia to a an acknowledgement that we can't we can't stuff around with this anymore. And um and people are acting and you know every single time I open LinkedIn you know sometimes you get um information about jobs coming through every job that that is coming through that you know pops up on the feed is a sustainability job at the moment. You know the there's such a lot of energy and focus in this area and and that for me indicates that corporate Australia and and governments are looking to invest um heavily in the space to to drive activity and actually just in South Australia this week there's all this energy and enthusiasm for what we might do as a state in the hydrogen space. So you know not only is this um yet well I guess we have to acknowledge that climate change is a deep deeply worrying situation But I think Australia has an opportunity to um seize this this challenge and turn it into a a huge positive for our country and for our children and hopefully for the world to reduce the impact on some of our most vulnerable people. Um to to to actually, you know, avert some of the worst um cases. There was I think you said in in what you were talking there Beth, you talked about kind of the privilege of being at Microsoft and the fact that we are, you know, in in a company as a company we're in a position to be able to make material change and material investments in these kinds of things like you say the jobs we're hiring a lot of them in that sector. Um, but one and and for me, you know, it's not necessarily associated with the sustainability piece, but there's a I talk a lot about responsible AI. In fact, I think I've talked about in the show before, Ben, Dan, when we've done sessions on this, and there's something that we talk about there which Brad Smith always talks about which is you know when you when you build the technology that shapes the future of the world then you take a responsibility to to understand and and take action where that you know that changes is impacting on the fabric of society. He says it much better than that but that's the intent and I think it's a kind of similar sort of thing you know for it's that moment that recognition that when you have when you're part of the problem you need to be part of the solution when you are and you have and certainly when you have the means to be part of the solution you know like you said tech isn't solving the problems. Tech is part of the process of solving the problems. There's a lot more that goes to go into it, but I think you know that's and that's that's something Microsoft does, but I know that there are many other organizations and and and we always talk to organizations about, you know, when they think about their ESG commitments. It's not just about saying what you're going to do. It's actually then putting that stuff in practice and investing in things that that land in that in that meaningful way. Acronym call out ESG. Oh, um Oh, you know, I'm saying it now and I can't remember the it's well, it's your um environmental sustainability Is it ESG goals or is that Yeah. So, yeah, environment, social and governance. Yes. Right. Yes. See, I Yeah. You know, that's why that's here. I think one of the things about about this reporting is is a level of transparency that needs to happen and a a a level of humility in sharing the data and not having to have all of the answers, which um you know, perhaps I've I've want too much Kool-Aid today, but I I do think Microsoft is doing a really really good job in setting ambitious moonshot targets with some of our sustainability goals, but then being deeply honest to in in some of the reporting to not only capture where we've got to and say, you know, this is on target, this is off target, and here's what we're going to do to try and tackle these issues. But they're actually creating white papers and publishing the processes they're undertaking to tackle some of these challenges in the recognition that we can't do this alone and in sharing these processes in in an incredibly transparent way and and acknowledging where we're making mistakes or acknowledging where there needs to be better coalitions of the willing. You know, hopefully we are part of a movement of organizations, governments nonprofits that can um you know this can't be a greenwashing exercise. We have to we have to move from uh you promoting this as a as a glossy brochure and saying you this is a problem and who in the world can help us solve it. You I think um I think I I have to admit to being a massive fan of Mike Cannon Brooks also in terms of the way he's ling some of these issues um in in in a completely different way. And obviously he's in a a position of being able to influence things with his financial um abilities now. But you know what an incredible um role model he is to focus on where he feels he can make a difference and to use all the levers at his disposal now to to be driving an agenda that is um really going to be trans transformative in Australia and in corporate in the corporate world you know I think it's a very interesting to see what happens it is isn't it and it's like it's interesting to see where you know I suppose any publicity is good publicity right and is you know there's lots of people now I think it's interesting how people like Elon Musk are thinking about the future and thinking about you know but then at the same time you know uh are pushing the boundaries but you know polarizing large sws of the population as Well, at the same time, you know, I think people go from hero to zero to, you know, to hero to villain, um, quite regularly, um, and and any publicity is good publicity in this space, I suppose, where, you know, wherever you land, you know, when you look at a Tesla car, I suppose this is one of the things with like I don't know. I'm not sure if in the world of Elon Musk any publicity is always good publicity. He has a habit of being, I suppose, either end of the of the spectrum in terms of his uh his outre. But I get your point. I mean, absolutely. Yeah, talking about it is is never a bad thing. Absolutely. And and like you know it made me think when I was looking at the Tesla cars and you think in your mind and you and I was going back to my right right at the beginning when I was thinking how is this impacting you look at you know electronic vehicles and things and then you don't think about the deeper level of of connection I suppose to rare metals in the earth and I suppose that that segus us in Lee to Kate Crawford. I I heard you speak speak to some of the other team across the world about this book and I I read AI um the AI book from the Atlas of AI. Yeah, it was it was absolutely fantastic. Um I was listening to in the car and the way she splits it all up uh around, you know, AI and the metals and the and the earth elements and all of the different sections that she goes through is a really good journey to make you really think um I suppose holistically about how this this all connects together. Have you got any thoughts on on on that? uh what would how would you kind of take this to the next level? Look, it is an interesting book. Uh and you deep respect for for Kate and the work she does. You know, obviously she's a researcher here as well as the work she does independently. Uh and it does kind of bring you back to that point. You know, I was going to as Beth was talking about it, you know, you think about this word of sustainability and we kind of our minds immediately go to, you know, sustainability means climate change. Um but of course, sustainability by its very definition just means a long-term sustainable practice. or process that you know has limits the harm it does and provides a part you know continual opportunity to grow in the future and so you have to kind of look at in that bigger way and that means you know how you treat people how you treat process how you treat and all of the things that are required in that supply chain and that's where Kate gets to in the book um the atlas of AI she's done a couple of books but the atlas of AI where she kind of says you know you think about what it takes to get to AI I mean you I think previously the book she wrote was about she sort of deconstructed things like Alexa and that but you know But if you kind of start to deconstruct AI and you really follow it down the supply chain, you are talking about, you know, the multitude of things needed to build the the technology needed to do the computational requirements to get to that point. And then we build these devices that, you know, our phones and our other things that have all these rare earth metals and other things that in them that are clearly non-sustainable. The clue is in the name. They are rare earth metals for a reason because they are rare on earth. We don't have many of them. Um, you know, lithium being a great example and and of course if you've seen the TV adverts I think it's quite I mean like it's clever advertising but you know you see the the large mining corporations I won't name names talking about the importance of the work they do in the continuation of our electric future you know in order to continue mining for lithium for example you need that in order to build the electric cars you need and that's often a mis point that sustainability by electric electric means actually has a significant footprint elsewhere and that's the point and if you look at the book you know she does talk about this um the various pieces of the puzzle, whether it be about the the people and when we get into human slavery and poor work practices in many of the countries where these things are mined because unfortunately because of the way it was built, our planet seems to be set in a way that all of the really important things we want happen to live in some of the poorest countries and difficult to reach places on the planet. There's a there's a sort of an irony there, I guess, in the in the in the ridiculousness of that. Um but I think look what's really important if you look at the book I mean There's a couple of things I'll I I I personally take from it, which is I love the fact that she opens with this posit that says we talk about AI, but it is neither artificial nor intelligent. It is very physical and visceral. It comes from the earth's crust. It comes from our bodies. It comes from the work we do and the physical things we dig out of the ground to create this sense of artificialness that is actually very physically and viscerally real. And then we think about it as being intelligent and we sort of pursue the ambitions of AI because It's intelligent, but is it really intelligent or is it actually just a sort of an extension of a very simple childlike processing, less than childlike processing? And it's really automation. It's really simplifying human tasks. Now, there's a lot to be said, and she does talk about this, a lot to be said about, you know, taking humans out of the, you know, the the the key areas that we talk about, you know, it's where dangerous environments, um, you know, places where humans are putting themselves physically at risk in order to work, uh, processes that are not safe. for humans to do. There's good reasons to build autonomous or AI based systems to get into that. But I love how she got I love that principle of, you know, it's not actually AI because it kind of grounds you in the okay, you know, there's more to this. And then the other one which I thought was a really it's one of those moments in the book where you just go, oh, yeah, that's really yeah, that's kind of stupid that we do it that way. But she talks about how if you think about the way AI works today, we, you know, essentially you get a data set, you classify a data set by defining what's in the object in the picture, and then you teach a machine to remember the classification and learn from that classification. Here's a thousand pictures of dogs. Here's a thousand pictures of cats. Now, Mr. Computer, you can tell the difference between a dog and a cat. You know, go run crops. That we use that basic model, but you kind of if you look back to how humans used to do anthropological studies of the world as we extended our footprint as Europeans or other invaders around the world, you know, we kind of did this and we were the great story she talks about is a guy um there was a guy called Sammy Morton in the 19th centur is a cranologist and he used to collect the heads skulls of of people from around the world that that they would use the then and then objectively divide these skulls by based on their physical measurements. So classifying the data into the five races of the world and this is 19th century thinking so you kind of have to take it with a pinch of salt. African, Native American, Caucasian, Malay and Mongol Mongolian and these are the five classifications of people in the world. And we just sort of said there's the data classify it put in those boxes and that's it. That's how we define the people. of the world. And that's exactly what we do with AI today. I mean to a very limited extent. We take all the data sets that we have, we classify them by gender, by post code, by wealth, by some other measure within the data and then we teach a machine to tell us more about other things based on the classification of the things we've already told it. It's we sort of haven't learned anything from the very basics of poor data into the future. So it's really good. I mean, yeah, I look up there's a lot more I think for me the things talk about and then I'll I'll I'll I'll stop talking because I talk too much is the AI piece of it and the and the okay so yes we get it AI has a huge carbon footprint I mean if you go look at some of the stats around environmental sustainability you know various numbers of it but I'll tell you now the you know we talk about air travel we talk about uh cars as being huge carbon contributors it's like you know 5% for a plane 10% for a car and then 200% for some of the large computational models around terms of the carbon because of the need for computation efforts to run you know you know and it's hard to not talk about that and be realistic about things like GPT3 and other big language models DAL and other things that are hugely computational but of course we know that and we can probably fix it and what I really love that what she does talk about and what we see in our world is this focus on how do we fix that problem so how do we get AI to be better at this and there's a movement out there I think Dan, we might have talked about this before called green AI. And so we traditionally measure AI's value by its model accuracy and this power power of the tool and how we're going to play it. And the green AI measure says okay well actually why don't we also measure it by its footprint by its efficiency as a model and actually drive people to not just think about what's the biggest model and the greatest result I can give but also what's the balance of lowering the impact of that model. And there's a lot of work happening that and it's it's Certainly not a easy area because we're kind of going against the Mo's law principle of the more you more you throw at a problem the better you can solve it but I think it's really interesting and it just what what her book for me Dan to answer your initial question is it opens up this conversation by telling you about all the things that you probably didn't realize you know the about the the sustainable impact of AI but it does point the way to technology innovations to new thinking and research that is looking at that and going okay well before this becomes so big and and it becomes our new, you know, um, ozone problem of the of the of the 80s. Let's try and figure it out now. And we're getting smarter at optimizing memory modules, optimizing algorithms, optimizing data models, trying to do more better, accurate AI with lower data sets, so we're not using as much carbon. So, look, yeah, for me, it's an interesting book. It kind of takes you on a journey of, you know, oh my god, everything's terrible. Oh, okay, I can see a way forward. Oh, I now I realize there's much to do here. So, Yeah, it's it's a great book. I I look forward to trying to get a my hands on a on a copy of that. As you were speaking, I I was just thinking about how cloud computing has contributed towards a move towards more sustainable computing as well. And I I think there are some fascinating things happening as organizations are investing in uh um uh data centers but placing them in strategic places to make the most out of um renewable energy and and using um you energy to um green energy to power those data centers is is definitely how we need to look at this. For sure. One of the most interesting models I've seen is is Microsoft's own underwater uh data center where they've been experimenting with um locating machinery in the ocean. I I can't remember which ocean it is and in it's in Pacific Northwest outside and and Seattle. No, up in the Ornes up in north of Scotland was the other one. They did two so far. But you're right. I mean, yeah, it was very well it was that one of the interesting points was testing different water types and differentities and other things. But you're right, both of those places were chosen because of the access to renewable energy sources as is the case for nearly all of our data. Well, all of our data centers now is on that. But I I wanted to touch on because you mentioned the cloud computing thing, Beth, and of course, you know, one hand you can look at the cloud computing being this massive conflation confl configuration of computers in a single place that has this huge footprint and of course that you know by the offset of that is renewable but the other thing to bear in mind is cloud computing actually does allow us to distribute the use of computing and so whereas before you might find discrete organizations had to invest in a more significant yes infrastructure at cost carbon and technology whereas we can make those things available which is one thing but The other thing that you know about I mean you mentioned the cloud for sustainability earlier on being released but because we're building these cloud services we're also seeing things like um and I forget the exact name of it but there is a now a a function inside of Azure AI's machine learning uh studio tool sets in the ML studio uh that lets you measure the carbon impact of the computing you're running in there. So not you know this sustainability does that broadly across Azure this is specifically for AI and so you kind of got look at cloud as this interesting, you know, it has its problems because it is this concentration, but it is also opening up new ways to think about some of the problems which is a solution which is awesome to see. Yeah. And and and one of the one of the things I was listening to an interview with Kate actually in um through Sydney Uni because she obviously connected there and um there was a great conversation she had that that I was watching and she was one of the questions was around uh bringing into education and how early we should be teaching kids about some of the con concepts and being familiar with some of these things and it's quite an interesting spin on that and she was talking about the fact that um the way that kids already interact with AI as we all know you they interacting with toys you know I was thinking of my daughter who's got toys that she can press and go near and move away from and talk to and they repeat back and they they're a kind of virtual assistant uh element and you know thinking about when we start to introduce those concepts to kids and and also you know it's it's accelerating really quickly because it goes into her ethics elements in her book, but um you know the fact that kids are now on their iPads quite a lot from a young age and a lot of those apps are free and they're collecting data and um want to want to kind of drive more personalized experiences through. So it's it is really interesting. I find all that the entire conversation with younger generations, you know, we do that AI for good and I know it was in the last um caller podcast we had and it was really interesting. because I ran an event in one of our local schools here and it's really interesting to talk to kids about it and they've sort of lost that discernment with technology. They they do trust um you know vendors you quite quite a lot uh and and are and not really thinking in a lot of ways about why things are happening and and and why they're using particular types of hardware. You know, it was it was very very interesting. I think she's she's she brings that up quite a lot as well in the ethics side. in a book. Sorry, Beth. No, no. I I again I have to read this book, but one one thing that I h often hear in the sustainability space um especially as it relates to mental health is that and coming back to your earlier point Lee about things being the problem and the solution. I often wonder if technology and the role it has played in detaching human beings from their living environment and you know this move towards working in offices, working in a knowledge based job, spending hours in front of a tech, you know, your technology in the day and less time outside, less time in the natural environment is also a a driver of a deep disconnect that we have to our own environment. And if you if we if we as a society or as citizens spend more time in the environment, do we have a greater appreciation for the natural environment and thereby are we more inclined to try and protect it because we spend more time enjoying it? And yeah, so I I look at my daughter and she got a um a a little kind of iPad thing for for from Santa. Actually, Santa was ridiculously generous. Um and and every moment she spends on that iPad sucks her deeper into the technology vortex and she might spend less time outside as a consequence. And you kind of think, well, what impact might that have on the way that she might interact with her natural environment if she spends more time with, you know, bush walking or looking at ants or spending time with birds? Will she want to protect the environment a little more when she's older? It's a it's a really interesting uh question. It's very philosophical and you could probably dive deep down a rabbit hole on that. Uh especially if you're outside you might find a rabbit hole but you know you can get down to that point. Look and you know it's in for me I've always rackled grappled with this idea that it's you know the world that I grew up in and therefore the world that I'm used to experiencing as a kid is just frankly not the world my kids are going to grow up in. And and part of me wants yearns for them to have that world where I went outside and played all night and then came home and that was it. Part of me doesn't want them to just do what I did just because I did it and I want them to experience the world they're going to grow up in. And that's a the dichotomy is do we like the world they're growing up in? Well, does it matter if we like it or not because they like it. And I and that doesn't you know address the issue as you said of the environmental connection. I think that people will always hold a there's a I don't know there must be something innate in humans around the physicality of the world we live in that need to get back to it because I certainly find as I get older and I'm in the IT world I'm I'm sort of less interested in sitting in front of a computer and doing than I am being outside. But you know, for me what it actually comes back to, and it's an interesting segue back to the point you made very early on, Beth, which is about the overwhelming nature of it all. And there's just so much to solve, so much to deal with, so many things that we all individually would like to do. Dan, I'm going to make you wrap it up, bring us home, smash it out the park. Oh, great. And kind of give us some like, you know, let's get probably a bit more practical because that's probably useful for people. What are what are things we could do? Yeah. And I see this I see this every day I suppose and it's becoming more and more more and more prevalent. You know I was asked I think about three months ago by one of my customers they said can you tell us about Microsoft and the modern slavery connections and how we can support uh conversations around uh to a board around hardware because they were already asking other suppliers. So they were starting their conversations around sustainability and you know they realizing very quickly that these scopes suddenly start to get really wide. and they they they they come into us with with all kinds of things. This landing on the CIO or the IT manager's uh door in a lot of times now you know the CIOS are coming to us asking about this because they're often procuring the technology they're often implementing the clouds they're implementing the hybrid work technology so it's adding another degree of of um I suppose specialtity to an IT manager's role whether they should or should not but it seems to be landing there Similarly through hybrid work people were thinking about well-being and that landed in the IT infrastructure as well and your teams you know and and that was quite an interesting one. So so where we've started to settle now and think about this we've bringing our strategy from Microsoft point of view together but I suppose there's three phases. One would be assessing where you are now and you you alluded to it earlier on Beth you know uh so well you know it's about assessing where you are now and we are producing tools to allow you to do that from a Microsoft point of view and the vendors will come along as well. Um, and some are doing that already. But it's about assessing where you are because you can't uh identify your progress going forward if you don't know where you are now. And then, you know, we got this big scope of what are we assessing? Are we assessing our suppliers? Um, are we thinking about uh the software we're running, the data centers we're using, the electronics and electricity that we might be using, where are we using renewables? So, it's all about thinking about where you are now and and starting to get that data together. So that would be the first step to start thinking where we are and and whether that's at us us at home as well. I suppose we did a thing recently uh in Microsoft to a global eco challenge and we would we were encouraged to kind of think about our own footprint and we can have conversations with our kids and it's a similar thing to start to do with an organization. So assessing where you are step one I suppose the second step then is to start thinking well I'm now now I know where I are how am I going to accelerate my progress. So how you do that is by thinking about a plan. So you then put a plan together and say, "Well, where are we going to be?" And you can look at the Microsoft plans online, other companies plans, government plans, and and putting a five-year plan together, a 10-year plan together, and then you can start to see what you're going to do and then break that down into actually something that's actionable rather than, you know, we we'll be carbon neutral by 2030 or whatever it might be. You can see where that really can be done because it's all very well looking at Microsoft or any other company and saying they're going to be carbon neutral. by whatever but when you get in the detail um and that's what you said as well Beth you know it was great you know the fact that from Microsoft point of view we've been open and transparent with our our kind of goals and some we are hitting and some we're not and some we need to accelerate and some you know you have to change as you go and that's a good plan right so um so you do your assessment you then do your plan and then also you start thinking about what are the areas you might want to transform on in a in a bigger way so it might have a knock on effect to the way your your teachers or your your um nurses or your employees, you know, actually do hybrid work. You know, can they do that? Do we have to bring people together? Can we change room settings when we make new buildings? Can we kind of have um a thought about where where we are moving to the cloud? Can we accelerate that? Because you know there's a lot of statistics about moving to the cloud. I think the stats from Microsoft is receive 95% on our emissions by moving into into Azure for a lot of our tools and tech. technologies. So, you know, when you look at it from a product point of view, and I don't want to make it too Microsofty here, but when we look at Azure, you know, that's got a big uh push towards sustainability. There's an emissions uh dashboard inside there as well, which I tell all my customers to to have a look at. You can install that and and you can see all your your emissions ticking over and and what your carbon footprint is using the Microsoft stuff. Um Beth, you want to say something there? Oh, no, no, not at all. I'm I I'm glad that you're sharing that conversation with your customers. You know what I was thinking actually was that um you know in in the journey to eating an elephant which is a terrible analogy for the conversation we're having that you you start with a single bite. You need a single step and you're kind of breaking it down and the fact that we are empowered as all employees of this organization to take this on as our own as part of our own job I think is is one way to I'm speaking to a school on um it was last week when I was going around the grounds um like I said at the beginning and one school was using a million sheets of paper you know just in one one particular area you know they're still doing that so when we thinking about the s all the sustainability elements there's there's process automation as well so when I looked at when I said about cloud there it's also thinking about well how are people using other to you know their CRM systems the ERP systems their finance systems how they using that to modernize and and become paperless is another really good way to start to drive that. Um, so really try to think think about the the impact of those and that has a knock on effect obviously to the software they use or they using Dynamics or other types of CRM tools like SAP and the like and then also utilizing that hybrid you know I think that's where people are going to see a lot as well and I think Microsoft are thinking about what's going to happen here because we used to travel to the US every year for a kickoff event which is you know you're shipping a lot of people in we have big part events on and what we do locally in Australia. You know, people love face toface events, but you think about well, how can you make that more effective and more sustainable in your practices? So, it has a knock- on effect. You know, teams meetings and things like that have a knock on effect. And then right down to the the other one that lots of people are uh are pushing on is is hardware. So, you know, obviously, you know, even simple things, I know in schools, you know, every year they have a thousand devices the land if Phil skips up of of hard you know, packaging. Yeah. Uh, so we've done things to to actually ship out in one box, you know, 50 machines at a time, do the do the mice and the plastics based on, you know, the the recyclable um ocean plastics and things. So, there's lots of things that you can start to do to map out as a as a person in an enterprise to say, well, these are the little things that I'm doing, and they all add up, but you can then compare back to your assessment and say, well, how is my now new choice to supplier or vendor impacted on you know our original assessment of our our knowledge of modern slavery and sustainability and our emissions. So so the three things assessing your impact accelerating your progress and thinking of new areas to transform would be the three things to kind of start to drive on Lee to answer your question. Awesome. Love it Dan. Great to have those uh practical things that you know that actually can be done and uh I appreciate you sharing it. So I think we're almost done. types. Yeah. Yeah. But but but hold on one last thing. My little Columbbo moment for people old enough to know what Columbbo was. He was a copper on the TV. Um so copper now I know if for English people are policeman writing on the TV. So confuse everybody in one sentence. Sorry all our listeners. But what I was thinking we should do is just have a top tip of the week if anybody's got one to add a little bit of fizz to the end of the and it could be anything. It doesn't even have to be technology related if if if you don't want to. So Lee, have you got a top tip of the week? I do. And it's just it's perfect. You said fizz. So, we all talked at the top of the show how cold it is, and it is cold and it's miserable, and it's winter now, but there's one good thing about winter. Winter means it's okay to drink red wine, and I like red wine. So, my tip of the week is, everyone talks about whether you should or shouldn't decant wine, and my tip of the week is you always want to let wine breathe. Regardless whether you decanted it or not, you don't always have to decant it, but if you're going to drink red wine, particularly this time of year, let it out. Sit it in the glass. Give it five minutes in the glass of swelling before you drink it. Trust me, your taste buds will approve. Brilliant. That's a great tip, actually. Oh, yeah. That that decant or not decant is always a always a weird one, isn't it? Always on Friday. In fact, now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True, Beth. Well, aside from uh requesting that everyone drinks South Australian red wine, I mean, that's that's another point. But as you're drinking that wine, open your laptop and go to a charity of your choice. In the leadup to the end of financial year, we uh have the opportunity to make a donation to a charity in climate on your tax deductions. There's a lot that we can do in regard to sustainability, but actually if we have jobs that are focused in other areas, why not think about making a donation before the end of tax time to support the organizations that can help more on the on the cold face. So, I am going to donate to a local charity that um focuses on planting trees in South Australia and I'm also going to take some time book my volunteering leave and spend some time actually getting out planting some trees during the school holidays with my daughter as well. So, it's uh it's a win-win here. Um certainly, you're feeling incredibly generous after a couple of glasses of red wine as well. I like that. I like how you did that. That's that's so good. Go. If if you can if you can combine those two things, then um so much the better. Absolutely. And my top tip would be um just cuz I've been back out on the road recently and and seeing people. I've I've take my daughter to her first theater experience in the in the city. So I took it to see Mary Poppins in Sydney and uh you know it's just phenomenal to see the way that people people perform. performing is just phenomenal whether it's a band or whether it's something local and and just seeing the the performance there and I uh when I was in Melbourne I was lucky enough to stay there overnight and uh I went with my colleagues Monica and we went to see the Harry Potter uh and the Cursed Child in in the theater there. Wow, that was absolutely phenomenal. An amazing use of technology, amazing story and just just to see people perform and be out and people enjoying themselves, you know, I think uh if you can get to the theater, go do And if you can see Harry Potter, even better. Awesome. I've heard good things. So, great for that. Thanks, Dan. So, I think I think this is going to take us into nicely into some of the next sessions coming up as well around sustainability. So, um you know, there's a lot of the space we've got here. We're going to talk about some of the uh things in build coming up. We're going to talk about and and interview other people about sustainability in their uh um journeys. So, you know, super keen to kind of keep that conversation going and thanks Beth and Lee for for joining us again today. And uh have a Great week. Thanks, Dan. Hopefully, you're a bit warmer after that conversation, too. The red wine is warming me up. Not that I'm drinking it now, but I'm thinking about it. It's 12:00 somewhere, Dan. It's 12:00 somewhere. As long as it's South Australian, I think they they can they can allow that. Very true. I love it.

In the third episode of this series, Beth and Dan interview Lizzie Fuller (Azure Solution Specialist, Microsoft), Matt Furse (Practice Development Manager, MIcrosoft) and talk Girls and Tech with Sarah Moran from Girl Geek Academy. 

Links:

Women in Tech - Girl Geek Academy

Microsoft Mondays – Geek Academy A.I. Series – Coding in Python, Javascript & 3D modelling - Girl Geek Academy

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 3

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hi, Beth. How are you? Oh, not too bad, Dan. I'm fighting uh the uh CO bug at the moment, so I'm still hanging in there at work. How about yourself? I'm I'm not too bad. Uh yeah, it's rife at the minute, isn't it? And Lee isn't with us today cuz he's ill. We don't know what's wrong with him, we think. think it could be the co virus, but who knows? It could be some space virus with with Leo. Some quantum thing. Oh, well, the last thing we need is another pandemic, Dan. So, let's hope he hasn't bought anything weird from him from all these space conferences. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, today's uh uh podcast is going to be quite exciting because we've got some guests, Beth, haven't we? Yeah, we have. So, we were reflecting in our conversations about what we might do to recognize women's history month in March and also women's um international women's day on the 8th of March and I know I attended a couple of events and and did a couple of things but it really got me thinking about some of the amazing work that our colleagues uh deliver and develop and um run right across the country. So I naturally thought about Lizzie and Matt who are joining us today. Hi Lizzie. Hi Matt. Hello. Hello. Thanks for having us. Excited to be part of this podcast. Yes. So, we would love to learn a little bit more about you and you're part of what we call an employee resource group dedicated to um girls in technology. Can you tell us a little bit about what kinds of roles you have at Microsoft and why you got involved in this special um ERG group, which is the the special group dedicated to girls in tech. Yeah, sure. So, um perhaps just as a quick intro, um I'm Lizzie So I'm an Azure cloud specialist for financial services. So my role is all around helping clients in financial services. Um help them leverage the power of cloud computing um to create more resilient businesses, deliver better customer experiences um think about how to use data and analytics to better understand um and serve their customers. And over the past three years, you know, feel very blessed to have had the privilege to serve on the diversity and inclution inclusion council for Microsoft Australia. Um and so in this role, Matt, my partner in co we've been co-chairs of the girls in STEM initiative and that's all around providing access and opportunities for girls across Australia. Um and exposing them to STEM subjects and career pathways. Um yeah, to answer your question, Beth, around why I'm passionate about it, um I think it's, you know, everyone, um I try to believe everyone is equal, but we just don't um all have equal opportunities and access. And you know when I reflect on my own journey, I very much fell into technology by chance but stayed in it by choice. Um and when I started working at Microsoft actually in the edgy team with Dan, um you know, I realized what an amazing industry it is to be a part of. Um you know, where you're really encouraged to take risks, be bold, help imagine the future. Um And growing up, you know, I was never exposed to role models in the industry. And I think there's a lot of misconceptions around what a career technology looks like. I think from the outside in there's the perception that you need to be a hardcore coder or be technical, but that's really not the case. You know, unless you're an engineering, there's a breadth of roles across product marketing, sales, um, strategy, advertising. And so there's both the opport you need to be in those roles, but also if you want to be technical and be a cloud architect or be an engineering, you can be do that. You can do that as well. And so I think we need more women to be part of um building the future. Um and so um that's why I'm so passionate about it. I might just hand over to Matt to say a quick hello as well. Thanks Lizzie. Yeah, thanks for having us on today. Down in breath. Um yeah, Matt says I I work with startups and uh different software companies in Australia. to to work through building partnerships and building products on our cloud. Um, which is a lot of fun. Get to work with lots of different diverse organizations across the place. Um, also a father of two kids, one of which is a six-year-old girl and Scarlet. And we have a lot of fun um, home with technology. And uh, yeah, like Lizzie said, I've I've kind of come into this thinking to myself, we can we can do more to help help um, women and and girls do, you know, achieve more with technology. demystify our industry and get them more into roles. Um, you know, because it can be challenging to to kind of get into this industry. Um, and so, yeah, really relish the opportunity to work with with Lizzy and and the brilliant um different people that we work with across the business to actually drive that kind of agenda. Like it's been it's been a really uh insightful journey and one that I've I've really enjoy been enjoying. So, one of the companies that you working for, we're going to introduce in a second. Sarah's just joined us on the call. So, we'll say Hello in a second. But Matt, do you want to do you want to tell us about how you've uh how you uh came about meeting Sarah and the team? Yeah. So, I think Lizzie and I um you know, we we had this kind of idea that we we would try and involve more more young girls basically in in in STEM faculty. We thought, how do we use Microsoft as a place to do that? Like, do we and this is this was pre pandemic. So, we were thinking face to face. We were thinking events and and we started reaching out to people across our business who have more experience in in this um in this group of people that you know group of girls than we do. And they um you know they kind of forced us to to rethink some of our preconceptions and to to think about you know how do we help the the least advantaged um in that group you know the ones that maybe don't have internet or a computer like how do we get them into you know involved with technology. Um so those you know really started broadening our horizons and thinking through you know what what else could we do and how do we do it differently um and we got introduced to the magical Sarah who's um who's just joined us. Hi Sarah. Y who's been on this mission for a long time. Uh so Sarah has been um involved you know trying to trying to help rebuild the internet um with girls for for many years. Uh and so we you know we we started getting involved in just learning really and starting to understand what do they do and what can we do and how can we do something more together if we brought Microsoft and and Sarah's organization the Girl Geek Academy. If we brought them together, what could we do that's different and bigger than ourselves? So, um, yeah, but I don't know if you want to introduce yourself, Sarah. Nate, what a segue. Um, yeah. Um, hi everybody. Thanks for having me today. Um, I'm the co-founder and CEO of Girl Geek Academy, and we have five co-founders in total. We've been, um, we've come from a range of different technology backgrounds from games through to making and 3D printing, um, high growth tech startups, um the full gamut of roles and industries. And uh yeah, there was just a point where we said um you know, imagine if all of our friends who we used to love tech with when we were young had remained in the industry over the long term like we had. Um and so you know, we realized if we'd have started teaching 10 girls 10 years before, we could be hiring them today. And that's definitely the um the spirit within which this partnership um centers is being able to say, well, let's actually work with high school girls and make sure that they know that we're not going anywhere and we will be there for them through those important steps um those career decisions we make in year seven 8 n 10 right through to deciding where we're going for university um and so that's been the beauty of this partnership and while while this has been evolving the pandemic hit um so you know it's it's been uh quite a ride uh in terms of you know we were going to have um originally we were looking at high school work experience programs that would be delivered face to face and almost like a school camp for for work experience which is probably still needed but um young people just can't access that at the moment and so um the innovation that has come out of this is really great. So you're partnering with Microsoft at the minute as well right and you know you've done a few things in the past as well. So like and I know we see you everywhere and on social media is like it's phenomenal the impact you're having over the last year the things you're doing and and the way you're actually um getting into those schools and getting into uh meet meet all the girls and get them together and get those programs going. So, in the in the Microsoft partnership, you know, and we can talk beyond Microsoft here. It's just it's not an official Microsoft podcast. This is just something that we we're doing in an education team, what kind of things are you doing generally? And then how how's that kind of now morph into the things you're doing like the Microsoft Mondays and and the like that we're doing with us? Yeah. So, I'd probably describe it in three different buckets. Um, one is what are the activities that we do with young people that we've found works to um, works over the long term. There's then how do we reach those young people and how do we connect with them whether that is in schools or outside of schools during school holidays um, and other um, like the timing of connecting with young people and then also then how do we connect with industry and what does that look like and and what does that shape up to be? And I think those are three very different things but it's the magic um bringing them all together that is what that makes that all work. So in terms of what we work on um it's really looking at um young people's interest in technology at different times. So I always make a joke that you know you wouldn't uh go to a high school and say you know what I'm I'm going to teach you how to build a high-tech SAS startup in year seven. Like that's just not anything anyone Yeah. I mean I would when they wanted I was there to deliver. But but what young people are interested in is like, "Oh, I want to build games with my friends." And you're like, "Okay, cool. Well, let's just use the same tools as you will probably need to build a high-tech SAS startup, but we're going to build games." And so really thinking at um you know, what are the things that we're trying to do? And you know, as as some young people get older, it becomes about well, who am I? And how do we use technology to explore concepts of identity and and who I'm going to become and what I can do to contribute and build that over time. Can I ask a question on that? Sorry. to interrupt you there to flow. But it's really interesting. You talked about like um that long-term engagement and it on on a flip side of it and and this this is for Beth and Elizabeth and and uh Sarah and the call I suppose but you know where where where girls disengaging what what from a female point of view what what is your insight yourselves on where that disengagement happens because it must something must happen somewhere along this continuum where you know, from small kids that that grow up and they lose creativity and lose their inspiration. Is this something fundamental that happens to so that you've got to re-engage? Sarah, how how controversial am I allowed to be? As controversial as you are. Well, look, I I will say there's a couple of things. Um, I I think so when we meet with young girls, they have an interest, a passion, and a capability to do everything. So, you know, um they are good at art, they are good at drama, they are good at music, they are also good at maths as well as being good at technology. And so, what happens is there's this fight for attention and and a fight for their time. And that's also structurally connected to our um education system. You know, when you when you go through years 7 to 10, you get all the electives and they give you a taste of everything. And then they say, "Uh-uh, but you can only do six for years 11 and 12. And the six that rank really highly to get you that magical big mega mark for university is blah blah blah. And technology is not one of those highly scalable, highly sought after um subjects. So I I don't know that the interest goes away, but we push these girls to not choose technology and not stay in technology by the systems and the structures around that. Um and that's a real shame and I think it's something that is addressable. Um and I am busy working to with young people who want to be engaged in that space. But if I had an extra couple of hours a day, I'd probably be on the phones to the influencers who who make the decisions about that because I think it's really sad that we get a lot of girls and we can retain their interest till year 10, but we watch that drop off um in years 11 and 12. And part of that is also class numbers. So if a class is too small, the class doesn't run um because you can't justify a teacher to a class of five people. So even as like we've had experiences where we've increase the number of girls from 5 to 8 that are interested, but that class still won't run. Therefore, it goes back to zero in year 11 and 12. So, that's my controversial take. Fair. Sarah, I was just interested in um so, as a parent of a seven-year-old girl, she said something really interesting me interesting to me the other day. She attends an all girls school and so she was making comments about maths just being for boys. And one of the reasons why I wanted her to go to in all girls school was that she would see every subject as being a girl subject. But I thought, you know, gosh, where could she have got that concept that maths is just for boys or maths that, you know, there's something unpleasant about maths? And it made me think about how me as parent projects some of these subjects and um you know, mommy's not the most PC of people at any point in time, let alone you know, trying to calculate things. Uh do you do you think a lot about how like what parents can do and what you know what we can say about jobs and it makes even harder when parents don't even know like unless you're working in the industry you don't really know what to say about these jobs either. So it's it's a tricky challenge but maybe as the industry we could we could do a parent guide to talking to your kids about tech jobs or something. That was definitely something that was one of our early learnings early insights. So we started a program called Miss Makes Code um in 200 2016 and we got federal government funding to help support roll that out um to support teachers teaching the digital technologies curriculum. And so we taught a heap of teachers and then people were like great, can you just teach my kids directly? And so we did some um some smaller versions of that program, but we ran them as child care days. So during school holidays, we'd say, "Hey parents, drop your kids off with us. We'll we'll take them up." Um and at the end of the day, the parents would come to us and they'd knock on the door and they're like, "What what did you teach them?" Because I never got taught coding. I didn't get taught these concepts and I still want to alone. And we're like, oh, because um then the realization came that we need to teach parents and children together in primary school um so that they also have a role model back in the home. So, how do you have those conversations? And we worked with um Women's Health East in Melbourne to actually um and and a number of different women's health organizations to help us with a gender equality curriculum around that. So, how do you have conversations with parents about hey, you know, what do we mean when we, you know, influence stereotypes around this sort of thing and and how do you change that? Um and that's definitely something we you know we need to work on all the way through. So that um issue is very different to the issue that girls face in high school. And I think to your point Dan about like what what is the fallout, it's a heap of just micro activities that happen that slowly nudge girls away from these pathways and when they all stack up it's a big hard no. Um and you know even even I'm the victim of that. I studied I learned code when I was five and I studied tech right through until until year 10 was a major at high school. And then um so I was doing computer science. I even did two subjects of computer science in one semester. Um and then I had someone who was teaching out of field. So they weren't a coding teacher and they didn't like that I did my website pink and they told me it must be wrong. And I was like, "Oh, I'm wrong. Am I? I'm wrong. Am I? Well, this is wrong for me. Thank you very much. Goodbye." And that's when I left. Like it's just a stupid little thing. Um but as a 18-year-old girl who wanted to build a pink website. I was pretty annoyed. I'm like, "Check my code. It is flawless. How dare you? Goodbye." But, you know, it's just the little things that people can say that after so many, you know, when it all stacks up, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back. And out you go. So, the program, that's some amazing insights from from from you both there. Um, the the um programs you're doing then to counteract that, like the stuff you're doing with Microsoft and and the Matt and Lizzy have been helping kind of coordinate some of what what what do those programs entail at the minute and how do people sign up for them? So, Microsoft Mondays we run um on a Monday afternoon after school which makes it accessible to New Zealand uh young people which is much after school. It's quite a lot later um but also you know for the broad majority of Australians they can access that but to them it was really interesting when um when we were doing a lot of uh homeschooling um the young people that you know the young women uh and nonbinary people would type in the chat, "Oh, I don't want to go to another, you know, if I have one more online class, I just don't know what I'm going to do." And I was like, "Okay, I just have to ask, you know, you're in an online class right now." And they were so amazing. They were like, "No, this is a community." And it was just the like, you know, the key um summary of success is when your young people feel like this is fun and engaging and something that they want to participate in. Um so every uh Monday afternoon, so 5:00 Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time is when we meet. Um, and it's great. It's, uh, you know, hundreds of young people collaborating. Uh, it's chat based, so they don't have to have their camera on. In fact, they're not allowed to have their camera on. Um, and we do lots of activities around AI specifically, which is quite great. Lizzy or Matt, do you have anything you want to add to that? Yeah, I think um, going back to the comment around the dropping points, right? Like when did girls disengage from STEM subjects? Um, Before we started this program, we spent um the hours and hours talking to Sarah, talking to um universities, nonprofits, schools going what is the dropping point for young women to participate in STEM subjects and where would where would sort of um our focus and energy make the biggest difference? And what we heard over and over as Sarah mentioned was really that 7 to 10 kind of age bracket where we see the highest dropout of girls. Um, and I think that, you know, also impacts their subject selections for years 9 and 10, impacts the university selections and then their careers. And so I think it's, you know, a lot of girls make those decisions around year 9 going, "Oh, it's just I'm going to choose XY Z without actually um it actually has a huge knock on effect." Um, and so um I think during the pandemic, gosh, two years ago now, crazy um we kind of noticed an opportunity and Sarah said something really funny. She said it's kind of got weird to hang out online anymore. You know, I think prior to that, it was still strange just hanging out online with strangers, but I guess a silver lining of the pandemic is it kind of normalized that. And so um because of that, we were able to build something that was scalable um to help um reach girls across Australia in a way that we could have never done um through inerson events. It would have taken um so much more time and energy. travel, etc. Um, and we really wanted to make sure it was free, girls could access without any socioeconomic barriers. Um, and we have almost a thousand girls as part of the program now. Um, and it's amazing to see the projects they've built from having no coding background at all to building an app where they can host their artwork, creating animations, AI games. They've created their own password generators. Some have started their own businesses. It's um pretty amazing um to see how how these um this community of girls have kind of found one another and found likeminded um like-minded spirits in a way. It's interesting you've used the word community as well because it sounds to me like they've they've found their tribe and found friendships out you through this kind of shared interest which is the thing that will keep them perhaps in the industry as well. And that was my question of how how you drive that because you know we all seen the shiny toys and you know we had the same thing whether it's girls or boys stuff like micro bits and things you know the teachers will go yay let's get involved with micro bits and then we crack on with the micro bits and then what happens is terminator just goes down how do you keep that momentum going yeah I think um it's all of the uh cultural rituals that are that are centered around that you know the fact that it is at the same time every week the fact that it's weekly it's not a one-off workshop on one piece of tech technology and the center really is about friendship and connection. So we've definitely found you know we ask the girls it's like do you have friends at school that you can relate to about technology and your interests and a lot of them will say um as we anecdotally thought might be the case is that no no I'm the only girl in my school who likes this but when you multiply that by the number of schools across Australia you suddenly have a large population of girls they just feel alone in their own school um and you know and and there's very much a bring a friend culture. So, um you might you might come along first time on your own, check it out, and when you go, "Oh, this is actually really cool." Then you're happy to tell people about it and um introduce others along the way. I think also um we have some very dynamic presenters. Um so, um our presenting team um who deliver the workshops, they are, you know, in their early 20s. Um they're young and cool and funky and not that far older than the girls in high school. And so, there's that real aspirational, oh, I could be like them one day. Um, which is really important that we build in and the idea that they could be like each other. So, we um, you know, when we work on different projects, we share them back with that community and say, "Hey, this is what we this is what we built last week and here's what everyone did, you know, not as homework, but just for fun in between the sessions." Um, we also have a quiz at the end of each um, one. So, yeah, there's a lot of competitive fun at the end um, which is definitely something that um, uh you know we sort of did just for our own fun and then it's like wait hang on fun is core to this this the success of this so um yeah so it's a little bit of technical activity the mentoring from the Microsoft mentors has been amazing as well so we've been able to get people from Microsoft to come in and share their experiences and we let the girls ask them direct questions um and so they'll put them in the hot seat and um ask all sorts of questions that you know these these young people would otherwise not have had access to. There are Um, I still have a couple of months as being defined as a young person by Japanese standards. Would I be too old to join this this Microsoft Mondays group? Um, sounds amazing. It does. It does, doesn't it? Pretend you're in year 7 to 10. Um, but if not, you should definitely come as a mentor. So, um, that's, you know, that that's that feedback loop because we get so much out, you know, from my conversations with the mentors. I don't know, actually, Matt and Lizzie, can you speak to any, um, feedback you've had from the mentors about their experience? Yeah, I mean they they seem to get a lot from it. Obviously the girls are fast and furious, right? Like there are thousands of comments and questions and and unexpected, you know, questions sometimes as well. So I know talking to some of the mentors that they they get a lot from being asked, you know, those those kind of questions about their life, their background, their journey, how they got to where they got to. Um, and just being able to be authentic on those calls and share that with such a broad audience. But just also the energy they pick up from it. There's quite a lot they get from just knowing there's such an engaged community of girls down there just asking questions, wanting to get into understanding what's happening at Microsoft, what's all that kind of stuff. So, I feel like there was um there's a real energy that the whole process has built up and uh yeah, it's definitely it's definitely something that that they get a lot of reward from. Um just just knowing that they're encouraging the next generation of technologists into into well, not just Microsoft, into the entire industry. Um but to your point, Beth, I think also what this has proven for us is that the model works. So that idea of thinking of it like a sport where you go to it every week and you you know you practice your game and you hang out with your friends and then I'll see you next week. Um is definitely something that works. So that could also work with um you know adult work um adult cohorts in industry um as well as parents and young people. So we we've tried a little bit of the parents and young people um approach. We found um we do that in school holidays. We we've partnered with Sunil We've partnered with a number of other partners to do that sort of in the midm morning during school holidays. Um and what it does is it means that you know the parents and young people can do the activity in the morning and it gives them an activity to work on for the whole day where the young person feels like they have the confidence to go and do that. So um yeah as Lizzie said I I did make a joke that pre pandemic it was creepy to hang out with young people online like can I hang out with your kids please? It's a weird thing to say whereas now people are like can you please take my children? Um and so a very, you know, a very flipped script in that respect. So, um, yeah, it's it's great to have been able to test the model and it's working. Yeah, look, I I'm sure it is. I had the opportunity to connect with some South Australian women this week who were older, so university students looking to make that leap into technology, but an awful lot of those um women were graduating with degrees that were not tech focused and were looking to now pivot into technology. So, I think what you're doing is influencing ing it far earlier and trying to get people to think more um focused on that kind of uh career trajectory as they go through schooling. But I think it's not going to be a silver bullet. Anything that we can do to try and re-engage women um we need to do and I don't know if you saw the tech council report of a couple of months ago and that incredible point around social mobility and um using technology jobs because they're so highly paid. and they are um agnostic as it relates to a lot of aspects in terms of where you've studied and your um cultural background, you know, those jobs can be used as a massive tool for social mobility. And so for me, I think really um anything we can do to encourage more women into these industries is going to increase the social mobility of women in Australia. Whereas at the moment, I think we're very much um dominating the more lowly paid industries. So, so I feel really passionate about moving more women into into technology. Can I ask you all, do you think the tech industry could do a better job in creating clearer career pathways for women and people in general, especially for entrylevel roles. And I was really surprised when I was talking to these women um who were kind of graduating. Maybe it's an indication where they're at. in their education, but a lot of them were saying, "Well, how do I even get into um a career in tech? How do I begin to work for a company like Microsoft?" Are you seeing those types of questions coming up in in your group? Is there a better way that we can help to um you create clearer pathways for for women, especially some of the women that you have in your group? Is there a way that we can better connect them or keep in touch with them so that we can help them in the future as well? I have thoughts. Sorry. Go Lizzy. I think um I think there's two aspects to this. I think there's one aspect I think a lot of people talk about which is a pipeline problem which it is true. We do have a significant pipeline problem when you look at you know the stats around only 17% of IT graduates and um IT and engineering graduates in Australia are women. That has a knock on effect on our industry or only 30% of our industry are women. I think that is a valid point, but I think um you know it's not the only challenge. I think there's fundamental systems issues that we need to change as well. I think if you look at industries where women are dominant, where they um graduate university, so for example, if you look at um law graduates, 60% of um university graduates for law are women, but you don't see 60% in the boardroom. And so there's fundamental systems changes that I think we need to drive through through the course of a person's career. Um whether it's graduate programs, aligning them with mentors, um and helping them sort of progress with those first leadership roles and management roles. I think there's more that we we need to do there. Um and then also it's how do you support um I think with gender equity it's not just it's not just a women's issue. I think it's a human rights issue. It's how do we make sure that everyone has access to the same opportunities and um jobs and pay. And so I think you know when women um often go on maternity leave we talk about a super gap. You know when women go on maternity leave and so how do you um address those systems things like making sure women are supported as they go on maternity leave super hey you know gender pay gaps where you know you see it you know um a lot of technology companies they actually a review of um the gender pay gap across the company and they'll fix it when they um when it happens. And so sometimes it's for women, but a lot of the times is actually for men as well. So I think it's um it's both solving for the pipeline issue, which I think um we're doing through this program, but also solving for the um systems issues that need to happen within organizations. Yeah, great answer. Um Sarah, you I think you mentioned you had thoughts. You've had further time to to percolate. Um I I think that uh the industry does have a responsibility to contribute to the education of that pipeline. Um I get a lot of people knocking on my door going, "May I please have a fully trained engineer who is ready to go, please?" And I look at them and I say, "Well, what have you done to help pull pull people into your industry?" Um and they're not willing to invest the, you know, the money and resources into doing that um all the time. And I think um there's a risk that we end up with um permanent juniors, you know, people who have invested in their own education and then can't get in the door because no one wants to then train them up to be um you know, contribute to their skills development to be senior developers, you know, um and in more senior positions. And I think that needs to be looked at more broadly whether or not it is through something like a tech traineehip, you know, where where we have the process um that is clearer in other industries. I think um I I think there are pathways into other industries about where you do what you where you do what activity in what part of your career and that is really opaque um in technology um across the board which is just a waste to me. I mean you know we need the talent um we're happy to pay to recruit them once they're trained why don't we spend you know even just a percentage of that money um in the pipeline but I you know I have massive respect for Microsoft's investment in that um you know and I often point to people to the Microsoft programs if they're looking to make career transitions um you know And a lot of the programs that you've set up and built, Beth, specifically um are what I would point to as a leadership model for for doing that. Um I just wish there was a way to encourage more of that activity. Sarah, I spent 3 years of a lot of blood, sweat, and tears trying to get companies to take on entry- levelvel people, and we we tried very very hard to build that up as a 50 5050 split between women and and men. Um through the traineeship program, but it was I found it really hard to to build that pipeline of women in the program, even though we're sitting I think at 40% female participation in the program, but it's just so hard to get companies to sign up to invest in young people as trainees in the tech industry. And you're exactly right, they just want to employ people who are fully baked. And as an industry, I think that that's no longer you acceptable. We need all of us need to invest in the potential of people and give people that um foot in the door kind of whether it's even work experience although unpaid work experience presents a bunch of other problems but trainee ships graduate programs internships I think are the ways that we can move the dial and and hopefully you know this can be tackled at a federal government level because you know we've looked at carrots and sticks but we're you know there's not very much that Microsoft can do in relation to that I think there be some mechanism for apps or employment reform to to perhaps provide carrots and sticks. But um it's incredible. I think what you're creating is a um is a a lasting change. And one thing I've learned in in the programs that I've run actually is just how life-changing some of these opportunities are. And you perhaps never know or never be able to fully quantify the impact that you've made, but I'm sure you've changed a lot of people's life experience. you know, life journeys and and their chances in the future. So, um, you know, on behalf of of the the podcast, but, you know, I think everyone at Microsoft feels incredibly proud of what you've achieved and very very grateful for um, these efforts on behalf of all the girls um, as well. So, thank you so much and thank you for sharing your story on on the podcast today. Thank you, Sarah. I do have one more question actually. Yeah. Can I just respond to what you just said? Oh yeah, of course. Yeah, please do. Um the benefit of having been around for 7 years is that, you know, people who were asking me um for women in tech seven years ago uh and haven't done anything and they're still asking me, I point to what they could have done along the way. Um and I'm hoping that now that they might be able to see the impact that some of these programs are having. The other benefit of being around for seven years is that to your point, I can actually now say there's a woman that founded a company. There's a woman that, you know, got her foot in the door here. We have um we had a partnership early on with General Assembly and so the you know the the progress of women through boot camps who then actually companies who do take on those women out of boot camps I can actually point to those women now I can point to those girls I can point to those parents um which is a real longitudinal um sort of data set which I I haven't seen exist anywhere else and um the weird thing for me is that I've realized we're still standing and we have so many women who have had to give it up along the way and behind the scenes oh there are people who wish we did not exist. Um but uh we're not going anywhere. So glad to hear that. Oh yeah. I mean Microsoft that helped make that happen. It's so it's so true. Like Beth, you also said how you know how it's been a long journey trying to get stuff done. You about seven years trying to get this done. And right now every founder I talk to, every business I talk to is trying to hire and they can't. And so now everybody's trying to bake the birthday cake whilst they're at the party. Yes, and it's too late. So, we need to start baking cakes right now. All of us, every company, I think it's the most important thing to understand. Investing in that talent now will yield returns right down the track. As Sarah said, they'll be the next founder. They'll be the next Yeah. you know, dev lead, the next head of whatever. And they and they'll they'll bring others in as well, right? If they had the right experience. And more to the point when you call Beth or myself. Yeah. You've you've done the work. I'll give you the women. Yes. Yes. I I do like that rule. And you know, Sarah I think to your point, what I see companies tend to do is they let perfection get in the way of good. You know, these programs are never going to be perfect, but let's start by starting. Let's start by helping 10 people. Let's start by kind of scaling that up over time. And this is what I think you've done through the partnership with Girl Geeks is that you're testing as you go, which is what the technology industry does, right? So, you're you're kind of growing and scaling and and you you know, yes, there are things that might you learn along the way, but you're constantly improving and and you're doing stuff. So, I'm I'm still having conversations with people, you know, four four years down the track who are still talking about the same things and they've done nothing about skills in the meantime. We've trained, you know, 300 people and we've got new programs coming out all the time. So, um yeah, not that not that we have the answers to everything, but uh at least we've done something about it and um hopefully change lives along the way. So, thank you so so much. And our listeners can't see your glasses, Sarah, but um they will know your glasses if they follow you on social media. Can you remind us where you get all your amazing glasses from? I actually get them from a woman in Shenzen. Um again, I used to have to visit her face to face, but now we can just FaceTime or, you know, we we can jump on a video. The world is so much smaller now. Oh, well, you have to hit me up with a contact. Thank you all so much for joining the podcast and we'll put all of the information about Girl Geeks and Microsoft Mondays in the show description so that people can follow it up. Thanks again. Thanks.

In this episode, Dan, Beth, and Lee talk to Jackie from One Giant Leap and Dr. Greg Chamitoff who served as a NASA Astronaut for 15 years.

Originally from Montreal, Canada, Dr. Greg Chamitoff served as a NASA Astronaut for 15 years, including two Shuttle Missions and a long-duration International Space Station Mission as part of Expeditions 17 and 18. He has lived and worked in Space for almost 200 days as a Flight Engineer, Science Officer, and Mission Specialist. His last mission was on the final flight of Space Shuttle Endeavour, during which he performed two spacewalks, the last of which completed the assembly of the Space Station and was the final spacewalk of the Space Shuttle program. Dr. Chamitoff serves as Professor of Practice in Aerospace Engineering and Director of the Aerospace Technology Research & Operations (ASTRO) Center at Texas A&M University.

Shownotes: 

HOME | Space Teams (space-teams.com) & SpaceCRAFT VR (spacecraft-vr.com)

Gregory Chamitoff - Wikipedia

Apogee of Fear - Wikipedia

Current Projects | One Giant Leap Australia Foundation (onegiantleapfoundation.com.au)

Zero robotics - http://zerorobotics.mit.edu/

Kibo Robot Programming Challenge - https://jaxa.krpc.jp/ and website- https://kiboaustralia.com.au/

Space Teams

International SpaceCRAFT Exploration Challenge - https://www.space-teams.com/international-spacecraft-challenge

Here is the link to the detailed schedule - https://www.space-teams.com/_files/ugd/8029e6_00c27206df6141e2b806fc26a985d464.pdf

Mission Oz https://www.space-teams.com/international-spacecraft-challenge This is designed for Science Week.

Here is the link to the detailed schedule - https://www.space-teams.com/_files/ugd/8029e6_6cde7ba561ef4c47800f1ee512ac91d0.pdf

What’ll Happen to The Wattle: https://seedsinspace.com.au/whtw/

Who is involved? Check out the map: https://app.seedsinspace.com.au/community

Also growing the space wattle:

Seeds in Space: https://seedsinspace.com.au/

Greg and wattle seeds - https://www.flickr.com/photos/botanic-gardens-sydney/4275352493

The Gadget Girlz: https://gadgetgirlz.com.au/

The Connecting Minds Project: https://onegiantleapfoundation.com.au/the-connecting-minds-project/

Try Zero-G: *new* - https://onegiantleapfoundation.com.au/asian-try-zero-g/

One Giant Leap Radio: https://onegiantleapfoundation.com.au/podcast/

One Giant Leap YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC06FenJ1C2t0ZtKNWXTGOFw

________________________________________

TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 2

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hi everybody. Welcome to the AI and Education podcast. Lee and Beth, how are you? I'm excellent. Beth, how are you? Yeah, very well, thank you. I'm I'm glad we're sliding into autumn. Actually, it's been a hot summer here in Adelaide, but uh I know enough not to complain about the weather here. I know it's been far worse. Hot and wet everywhere. Yeah, it's been crazy, huh? And the fact is the world's a bit crazy, but we could not we're not going to talk too much about that. The world is a crazy place. Let's stick to some uh some better stories that are going on right now, shall we? Absolutely. What you've been doing a lot, haven't you? I've been following you on social media and LinkedIn recently. You've been up to quite a bit recently. Me? I've Well, I've had a busy couple of days. In fact, I jumped out of this I've just jumped out of an event called the uh rules as code conversation which a bunch of lawyers talking about how law could be re written as code and then applied as code and have machines operating as in in the circle of law which is both incredibly mind-blowing but also I listened to the the the keynote and I lost completely my mind was exploded on the just the depth of how complex law actually is you know it's not a simple thing but yeah that was an interesting start what about you Beth what have you been up to ah yeah so um we are working on our women in space program here in South Australia which is very exciting and uh you know Liam it was good to see you last week here in Adelaide for the space conference. So, I'm still recovering from that. That That was my brain explosion, actually. I found it fascinating. Well, that's a it's a it's almost a perfect segue, isn't it? Uh, isn't it Beth? Yes. Um, I was lucky enough last week to head down to Adelaide to the Andy Thomas uh Space Forum event, which happens, I think, every six months here in Australia now, which is just constant sort of, you know, growth in the space industry. Um, but there were some really interesting announcements, some really interesting uh noise being made by the Australian Space Agency and and the premier down in South Australia, which I'm sure we'll get to talk about because today's episode is all about space. It's all about all about space. Lee, your circuit's dead. There's something wrong. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Sorry, I had to put the Dow reference in there somewhere. Showing your age there. I know. Fantastic. So, Lee, we've we've been waiting and Beth, we've been waiting for this for quite some time. This is really really exciting episode, right? So, we're going to really focus on space and take the next couple of episodes really unpack some of the real stuff that's happening across the world with this. But today we've got a real life astronaut and real life people who do things in space is so exciting. So Lee, can I pass to you to introduce everybody? For sure we do. This is very exciting and I was privileged to get connected to the people we're going to talk to today. But um so back in I think it was in back in July last year, I got randomly and I mean that with a great respect, randomly connected to uh to the organization called One Giant Leap here in Australia who are doing some amazing things in just engaging students in STEM and education and training. Um and through that connection uh I was uh immediately connected to a lady called Jackie Carpenter who is joining us today. Jackie say hi. Hi everyone. It's fun listening to uh Dan quoting off David Bowie, you know. Awesome. Um and Jackie is just an amazing person. We're going to hear a bit more from Jackie later on today and the work she and her husband are doing. But also we got connected to a real life astronaut as you dead uh uh Dr. Greg Shamangh who is also here with us today on the call and is a as you say a real life astronaut who has been to the ISS and I will only tell this story quickly Greg the first time we ended up on a team's call Greg you know we all have our pretty backgrounds and I you know you have a background in some space background Greg has a picture from the ISS looking out of the the window and I said that's a great background he said oh yes I took that picture and I knew I was innovation company so Greg welcome and and thank you for joining us it's great to be here with you you guys. Oh, we're very excited to have you here and to talk about your experiences. Um, look, I've got a thousand questions, but I've had the opportunity to speak to both of you um, you know, a lot over the last year as we've done the space team's event. So, Beth, I'm going to hand over to you and I just let I'd just love to learn a bit more about Greg's life. Thank you, Lee. Well, Greg, it's such a pleasure to meet you. I'm based here in South Australia, and we hear a lot about space and space careers, but actually, it's a real privilege to speak to someone who's actually been into space. Um, I'd love to learn a little bit more about you and your journey into space. How did how did you aspire to to pursue that as a career and um perhaps what are your ex experiences in in going out into space? Well, yeah, you know, in a way you forced me to uh to tell you about my childhood and and Jackie's heard this a thousand times. I love hearing it. Don't worry. But um yeah, I grew up in Montreal, Canada. And um and this was right around the time of the Apollo program and and I was a you know I was a four or five year old boy watching uh you know the Apollo program unfold with my father and my father was an engineer and and he I just remember him you know watching things on TV and seeing the people in mission control and just thinking you know and saying who are these people how did they get these amazing jobs it's got to be the coolest thing in the world and um you know and I'm al also uh you know watching well that time Star Trek right and uh seeing somebody gallivanting around the the galaxy, exploring new worlds and so on. Uh and then we went to Florida for a vacation and it happened to be at the time of the Apollo 11 liftoff and I got to see that personally. I in fact I was I was playing on a jungle gym when I was watching it. But but we were watching it and I just I was just blown away and I I told my parents, you know, that that that time this is what I want to do. And and uh somehow just kind of just it was so it was so impressive to see that rocket off in person, I can still, you know, remember it and and it just allowed me to hold on to that that dream, you know, my whole life. Um, yeah. So, that's kind of where it started. That's incredible. And I I think it just goes to show those experiences as you're growing up as a child. Exposing children to those experiences really gets them thinking about what it might be like to to to work in that industry. Can you tell me what it's like to be in space? What is it like to live on on the International Space Station. You know, it's it's been a while now since I've been there, but I still have dreams continually that I'm fly I'm floating around, you know. It's a it's a different life, you know. But the amazing thing is, you know, we we are we are amazingly adaptable, you know, and it gets to a point where uh that is that is the way you live and you can't even remember I remember getting to a point where I can't even fully remember what it feels like to have gravity and you know and I you just you know everywhere you want to go you fly. Um, and this is kind of a, you know, when you're on the ground, uh, I mean, when you live on Earth, you know, you have dreams. Sometimes people have dreams of flying. And I always had dreams of flying. And in those dreams, I remember, you know, uh, um, I I would I would fly, but I would be near the ground and I wouldn't have a lot of control of where I was going. You know, I would try to get somewhere, but I couldn't. You know, it wasn't even as good as swimming where I could actually force myself to go where I wanted to go. And then, you know, I got to live that way and you know for six months and uh you know you never you never sit down, you never you know stand up and and um and you fly everywhere you want to go and now I have dreams you know uh that are the that are where now I know how to fly and I have dreams that I can go wherever I want to go and you know and uh um you know it's a it's it's a place that once you're you know once you've got a chance to to experience that and see the world from that perspective you know uh another aspect that it's just, you know, we all know what the world looks like from space. We've all seen a lot of pictures of it, but it's it's a different thing to see it with your own eyes. I said, "Wow, it's there. It is. It's a it's a ball hanging in emptiness." You know, it's just amazing thing to see with your own eyes. And I remember when I looked through a telescope for the first time and and saw Saturn and you know, you know, we look up at the stars and the sky all the time and we see lots of dots and we see the moon, but you know, suddenly you look through a telescope and you realize that dot is not just a dot. You can see see the rings and you go, you know, you're in the middle of this incredible place. You know, these things are far away, but you're in the middle of this incredible place. And um it it's the same thing, you know, seeing uh the Earth, you know, from from the space station. I can imagine it gives you an incredible perspective on on life and and you especially given what's happening in the world. Did it make you think differently about your own life and and about, you know, how we how we need to get on with one another given And this is the only home we've got. Yeah. I mean there's an incredible sense of you know um you know maybe I could say like you know the mother earth you know I mean that's our home and uh how important it is to take care of it. It's the only place where we can live and when you go when you're up there and you look around there's nothing there's nothing for in every direction for as as far as you can imagine you know and then and every other place that's nearby is not necessarily well certainly not hospitable without a lot of technology to be able to live there. Um so it's so it's so important. It's the place that we share in. So yeah, absolutely. I mean it's very painful to see the kind of conflict that you know that we're watching right now. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's hope that there's a a resolution on the horizon. Um to happier news, I I was watching your movie, Greg. I didn't realize you were also a movie star. Um how did how did you how did you get involved in that project? Can you tell us a little bit about the movie. You're talking about the movie we made on the space station. Yes. Yes. All right. Because I' I've been involved in some real ones. That one was that one was very embarrassing. That's there's nothing about that that isn't embarrassing. Um so Richard Garrett is a was a space tourist or a private astronaut as he likes to call himself and um maybe that's a better label and um or title and uh he came up and he had the plan to do this and Um uh so we went along with it and um you know and he he produced it into a real real film but um you know we had a chance to look at our lines. We didn't know what he was planning with the whole thing. We did what we told we did what he told us and um and then lo and behold you know we're we're part of the first movie made in space. But um uh yeah I don't recommend it. It's it's a great it's a great movie. I love watching it. It was it was fascinating to watch. I was just for me sorry Beth. I was Just Richard Garrett for me is someone I knew growing, you know, as a child in the 80s. I was playing Wing Commander and Ultimate Games and I was kind of really close to that world that Richard Garrett was kind of and he was just he was such a creative person, but I was like I I know it's been some time now since you met him, but is is he what kind of person is he like? Because to be one of the very first space tourists, as you say, as well was such a thing back then. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And it was a pleasure to have him on the space station. I you know, different pe people looked at it a different ways, you know, he he went up, you know, um it was through, you know, Russia that he flew and, you know, and so there were there weren't financial agreements with with NASA directly, you know, and so NASA was in a way forced to accommodate, you know, uh, these um, space tourists that were going up through the Russian route. The Russians wanted to do that. Um, so the the US, you know, involvement was really just make sure that they know what not to touch or don't break anything. Here's what you can use, you know, very limited amount of training and they were supposed to mostly over in the Russian segment. But, you know, the the I spent a lot of time with him in Star City. He was training there, you know, when I was there. And um and we we got to know we you know, it turned out we had some hobbies in common that we we um we also filmed the first magic show in space ever together. Wow. And I brought all the I brought all the props up, waiting for him for four and a half months to get there. And then we we practiced juggling and doing magic together in zero gravity, which was a little tricky. And um but we learned how to do it. And We had a good we had a good time. But I you know my my feeling about the whole thing was you know I I was the I was at that point experienced in on the space station. You know very comfortable there. I could I could manage my own work and also film it at the same time and help film somebody else do their thing and and um you know the fir your first days in space can be difficult. You know you might have a headache. You might feel sick. You you know you're not used to moving around. You're bumping into things. And I just did everything I could to make him comfortable and help him. You know he had a he actually a pretty significant um ambitious list of experiments and things that he wanted to get done and so you know um we just did everything possible to make him welcome and and get the ma max maximum he could out of his his time in space and it was a pleasure to have him up there. C can I ask a question just following up on that when you talk about space tourism how how have you felt in the last you know six to seven months or so since you know Jeff Bezos and uh all the other private firms are getting people up into space what what are your feelings around that. Well, um there's a lot of feelings to tell you because um as a kid, my one of my hero was Captain Kirk, you know, and he and and I I was the first one to speak to him from space. Uh I called him from the space station and I, you know, at the time I I couldn't believe I was the first person to talk to, you know, Captain Kirk from outer space and and that I was the one in space and he was the one on the ground. I just couldn't believe it. Um so, way to see him fly, you know. Um, it just it just it just I'm just so happy that that happened. I think that's the coolest thing ever. Um, and and I think it's great. I mean, you know, uh, you know, the you know, the more people can get into space, the more people will appreciate what we have here on Earth. And, you know, and and I think it all it does is lead to more cooperation and and care and, you know, and collaboration um, you know, and taking care of the planet. I think it's uh I think it's all it's all good and I think, you know, that the the the real explosion, you know, of humankind into space and off to other planets and, you know, is really going to come when when um it can be, you know, commercial and public. Um the public can go, that's really when it's going to explode. And so this is what it t this is what it takes to to make that happen. And and Greg, you have been personally involved in a number of projects that help to inspire the next generation of of people in this field. Can you tell us a little bit about why you think that's an important area to be invested in? Well, you know, I think Jackie's I'm sure going to talk about this too, but you know, there's there's um there's nothing that I can think of that is more inspirational for kids uh than the topic of space, you know, and I and you know, could be many reasons why, but I think, you know, part of it is it's it's exploration, you know, it's the unknown, it's discovery, um but it's a future. It also has something to do with planning the future, you know, for humankind and and and a positive future and then contributing to that positive vision uh for you know for humanity and and so um you know people people at least here in the states you know they keep saying stuff like well you know after Apollo the public lost interest in space and I don't see that at all whenever I'm talking to an audience that the the excitement is unbelievable about space and I think there was maybe you know political will and other issues and so on but I don't you know what I see is that you know kids are are just fanatical about space and um and so it's a fantastic you know uh way to engage them in in in STEM all all the STEM subjects you know um you asked about the different uh things that I did the first one first big one for me really was happened while I was on my mission because well a couple of them I played chess against uh students from space um through the uh US chess federation and that was a lot of fun um but we had some robots on the space station and I Even before I flew, you know, these these robots were built by MIT and uh of course there were, you know, uh they're on the space station. So there's kind of an MIT NASA uh relationship there. And and I was being trained to operate them for experiments and even before I flew I said to the MIT folk and I went to MIT so they're my colleague sort of um and I said you know this would be an amazing STEM competition. Kids could program if I could program these robots kids could program these robots and these robots could go around and do things in space. that you know that the kids you know made happen. So we we created a competition um is the robots were called spheres that stands for something very long. Um and zero robotics became the name of the competition kind of like uh takeoff on first robotics but maybe coming first or zero gravity. Um and and so we've did that for many years and and now reviving again with with the next generation of robots and that's been a worldwide activity. Jackie and I did that together in in Australia with 50 high schools in in in Australia. participating in that. Uh the only reason it stopped was they retired the old robots and they're waiting for the new ones. Um and but it's a all you know all the countries involved in the space station have had students participating in that and it's been an amazing program because they they they work you know in simulation but then they have a live event with the crew when the crew is uh and they're talking to the crew and they're flying their robots on the space station. It's really really cool. Um and then you know we we've created space teams which I know we're going to talk about but that's that that came after that was inspired partly by by zero robotics. So tell tell us a bit more about space teams then and then we segue into Jackie's role with that as well. So what what just give us a bit of a high level view on that. Yeah. So so space teams you know was in some ways the idea there was you know how do we get the the world to participate in planning the this future you know off off planet earth and because you know what I saw I spent many years you know teaching in Australia at the University of Sydney. It's when I met Jackie for the first time and um and uh you know what I saw was you know you know the same enthusiasm as as anywhere about you know wanting to do things that are space related and and but it's very difficult because of the sort of the distance from the centers of these activities you know which are you know in you know soon I mean at some point soon every country you know every first world country anyway will have a space program that's thriving and Australia's is is is beginning to really thrive. But it's really hard to especially human space flight. It's very hard to be involved from afar, you know, and and the idea was how can we get, you know, students and everyone to participate in in the future of spaceflight. And um and it wasn't actually space teams, it was called spacecraft that we that came out of that. So spacecraft is the platform we run it on. And the idea was to use the new tools of virtual reality and you know and uh um that you know we're becoming more familiar with um to create the possibility of experiencing well designing, testing and experiencing entire missions um virtually and then being able to participate in that activity from anywhere. And so that's what we did. We started building my I'm at the uh Texas&M University and my lab is called the Astro Lab. Uh and we that's what we started doing was building this this uh spacecraft platform which is you know the idea is you know uh it could be you know companies it could be students but they can build things and design things that are for future space missions um and then interact and share and collaborate with each other, you know, all on these platforms. That's fantastic. Yeah. And then we basically built the a STEM version of that that would be, you know, so the younger younger kids could also do, you know, similar things would have this similar space experience kind of leading toward the more advanced um real world, you know, design possibilities. That's brilliant because that kind of segus into Jackie work, I suppose. So, let's explore Jackie's work a little bit as well and then maybe Lee you can pick up on the space teams think because I know you're passionate about that. So, so Jackie, we've known each other for quite some time. You, you know, you've been active in this area and and an advocate for STEM and space and science education for years in Australia. You've had phenomenal impact. Um, like it must be amazing. I know you know uh VG for quite some time. So, um, it must be amazing to hear him speak and you've probably heard a lot of the stories, but it's always blows your mind, right? Oh, I can tell you. Um, it was so funny because a mutual friend of ours, Ed Van SC, who's a NASA flight director, he sent me a message, um, an SMS, and he said, "I hope I haven't overstepped them up, but I've asked this astronaut to look you up. He's coming to Sydney." So, immediately I started sweating and shaking. It was like 3:00 in the morning. And I thought, "What am I going to talk to an astronaut about?" Oh, you know, and absolutely freaking out. And I'll never forget because I sent back to Greg and he was laughing about my message um that I sent back to him and um and and he was here and then I was teaching at the time. So I kept saying to him, "We got to catch up. Time's ticking." And he's not looking at the school schedule. And I'm looking at it going, "School holidays are finishing. Greg's going to leave and I'm going to miss this opportunity." So don't tell anyone, but I took a sicky from school, booked a casual, went um got a doctor's ticket, was sick, jumped the train, met Greg in a park, club was a 1-hour meeting um in uh the Swan and Duck or something or whatever it's called at in uh near the uni and um that 1hour meeting turned into two hours and uh and I will never forget Greg said to me, you know, we're the only two crazy people who think like this so we have to sit together and that's been amazing. It's just been wonderful. Um it just I I can't tell you what it's like to sit with Greg and just I mean we've sat in a pub together and just chatted about space What's it like to walk in space? What's that feeling? And I mean, Greg doesn't wear his like wide astronaut suit, so no one knows. So, you're just sitting there having this bit of a chat and I'm drinking a um I'll never forget I was drinking a Coke Zero and Greg was drinking a I think a fire engine or something and we're sitting opposite the raft based Richmond chatting away watching the planes take off and land and um honestly it's just amazing. We I have so much fun. Um Greg Greg's stories are incredible. I just I wake up a lot of days and think, how have I become friends with somebody like Greg? He's just amazing. And um but I think but I think your impact as well I know is it is phenomenal. But the impact you've had in the Australian education sphere, you know, is is is phenomenal. Like I said earlier on, you know, there was a time when every every event I was in, you were there standing up speaking to teachers. It was kind of it was kind of the the Jackie show doing all of the and and one giant leap foundation and moving moving that uh through. And I know you're very about that and you're always talking to partners and and things in that area and the impact you've had on kids in Australia is is fantastic. So, do you want to tell us a bit about um One Giant Leap? One Giant Leap. Well, One Giant Leap started around 2015, I'd say, cuz I like when I Dan, when you and I met, it was like 2005, 2006. And um and so I really started STEM doing STEM stuff in my class. well before anybody else even called it STEM. And um so 2015 I decided to leave the system and um and start one giant leap because I was being restricted down to just my school or just my system and so many people were begging me, please Jackie, I want you to work with my child. It just um and I felt like I could have far bigger impact and then when I met up with Greg and Greg became the patron of one giant leap and their momentum started building. Um I I really there are kids out there that we need to find. It's what Beth says around opportunity. We provide them with an opportunity and it's lifech changing and and we're finding kids. We're stopping kids from um their mental health issues. We work with all kinds of kids because they're the kids that we need to find for the jobs of the future. the the out ofthe-box thinkers, the ones that aren't in the city, the ones that you know that we can find, they need to find someone or some or a company or something to come to. And that's kind of how all that happened. So, yeah, it's funny you met I mean you talk about the impact that this has and I think when I first met you Jackie, we actually figured out that my niece Olivia Griffith who went to school in Mar not far from where you are, she did a space camp tour when you actually went over to when we could go visit other countries. Even she's she's 20 now, but even now she was I think she was 14 maybe at the time at that sort of age, she still talks about it. It's still one of those markers in her life that got her into realizing that she could do whatever she wants to do. And I think that if whether whatever direction you take in a STEM sphere, it just gives you that capacity to go, anything is possible. And I think that's for me when I think about space travel and the exploration of space, it just demonstrates the the endless potential. So I I thank you for what you did, Jackie, because you know, being a part of that one giant leap doing those programs. We We have helped probably I don't know we probably given away 80,000 $800,000 in grant money to kids. We've helped them find money. We get people to sponsor kids um every every which way I know how and ask Greg. I'm always trying on the hunt for this $1,000 for this kid or you know $500 for this kid. And um and so it's the kids who can't afford it who really the the difference is huge. And you just make sure that jump that that high jump bar is just a bit out of their reach. So, they jump over it and they have this massive sense of achievement. So, um Lee, you talk about that. Um my first ever space camp trip, there was a kid who helped me all the time. I was at Bunnings Barbecues running election barbecues, all these different kinds of thing to raise money for kids. And this kid helped me for 18 months knowing full well he couldn't go. Wow. Right. And I and this kid I raped some friends of mine who I had helped with their child. And um and I knew they had a little bit of money and I said to them, "Could you please help me? This this kid really needs to go on this trip." So um they said, "Well, we don't want him to know who it is." And to this day, he still doesn't know. It's more than 10 years later. Um we don't want him to know it's us because we don't want to be inundated with requests. So can you go and meet a concrete public driver um in a truck in a building site in Sydney at 4:30? in the morning on Saturday and pick up a check. So, I did do that and then I went to his house and announced to the whole family that he was going to space camp. Um, and that kid um then from that he um he then made sure his sister went and then he turned up at a fundraiser. He was in year eight. Turned up at one of my fundraisers and he handed me over an envelope with um with $400 in it. He to he taken on a part-time job and he said to me, "This isn't enough. But it's a start. One day I'm going to pay for a kid. So tomorrow that guy now is working at the Crown um prosecutor's office in Sydney. And tomorrow he's handing me over $5,000 to send a kid on one of my trips and he's 22. And that's the crux of what we do. And that's why it's Greg and I are so passionate about it. It's about passing it forward. It's about being kind. It's it's all these things wrapped up into that inspirational thing. So you Talk about inspiration like Greg I don't know if people know this but Greg in 2008 I think Greg you took waddle seeds wom my pine seeds flannel flowers and warar seeds to the space station um and it was through NASA I didn't know this and anyone who knows right now I've got the what'll happen to the waddle program happening with 300 locations in our country growing waddle that we sent to the space station now I didn't know Greg had done that. So when I found out Greg had done that, I went on the hunt to try and find Greg's space waddle trees and I couldn't find them because they have a certain lifespan. So the cool thing is I didn't know but I'm now building on Greg's experiment and um and if you have a look at the seeds in space website that we're running um we have amazing like seven seven kids in a school in New South Wales who want to grow the space waddle and they want to make a memorial garden for their gardener who passed away. So there's all these stories wrapped around the preschools, the SC the girl guides, the scout groups and all of that doing the um the seeds in space program. And we haven't announced it yet, but we've um we're just about I'm working with 11 space agencies in the Asia-Pacific to expand the seeds in space program to get groups of kids here to work with groups of kids in another country to grow plants because it's all about like what Greg says, looking after the planet, having a look at sustainability. If we are going to go to space, how can we feed ourselves and be sustainable and be happy? Because growing plants, it's great mental health. Um we can do it for medicinal reasons. There's a whole lot of reasons why the seeds in space program is really um really taking off. And um so it's funny, Greg, you talked about zero robotics and um I remember Greg was saying, I'm going to do this thing, this zero robotics, and what is it? So here we are at Sydney Uni 2. in the morning with a link up to the space station eating lollies to try and stay awake high budget effort you know like uh it's a bit like the arnets biscuits and the instant coffee in you know when you do teach professional development see we are eating all these lollies and pizza trying to stay awake with our link up with the ISS and it's amazing to be able to just sit there and the kids ask questions the astronauts answer back they're getting all the the spheres ready and and all of that and like Greg said the upgrading those robots. And in the meantime, NASA um has come over to the KBO robot programming challenge, which is one that we run through the Japanese Space Agency. Um this will be the third year we're doing it, where high school, well, all any student, as long as they haven't graduated from university, can operate robots in real time on board the space station using simulators. And the group that represented Australia last year in that group was an 11 year old girl from Martan public schools. So she was competing against um against university teams from other countries and battling it out. Um so you sit there and it's 5h hour link up you make a coffee and you they go through loss you know loss of signal so you go off and you run to the L and have a cup of tea and come back and back into it again. So highly recommend um KBO RPC. Um it's free. We run it for free. and it's high level programming. Um, what an impact you have though, Jackie. You know, just listening to listening to you there, you know, the the the programs that you've come up with in Australia and and the support you've gained from your contacts like Greg and and and others have been absolutely fantastic and the impact, you know, um, we'll share in the show notes all of the links to the programs you've got coming up and and ways to get in contact with you because, you know, I think this is like you said there, this is a team sport. Interestingly, you know, We seeing from a Microsoft point of view quite a lot of um you know like Beth's doing a lot on South Australia, Lee's doing a lot around space now and and lots of our cloud stuff in space which is which is interesting. So you're seeing a lot of technology companies moving that way and I hope that means that you'll get more investment and support and and and people interested to keep that momentum moving because I suppose globally with COVID and things and and and you know the way the world is at the minute pro programs and things are scaling back. Private investment is kind of taking over in some of these areas. And I think we've got to really try to all pulled together for the greater good here. But the the impact you had, Jackie, is just phenomenal. And just thank you from, you know, for all the educators and and kids that you've had impact with over the time as well. Um yeah, great work. Thank you. We've just come back from Dubai. Um we showcased a program called the Connecting Minds Project which I came up with And I've connected five New South Wales schools with five schools in the in the United Arab Emirates. And it was all girls. We thought we'd have 50 girls. We ended up with 97 cuz all the parents complained their child wasn't involved. Um and we showcased those five space STEM projects on the global stage in the Australian pavilion at Expo. Amazing. And um and that's on our website. And what they came up with was amazing. We had year three and four girls from Aubry working with year 11 girls in the UAE. such amazing projects when you can give people the license to go forward and come up with stuff that works for them. Um so we're about to start what we're calling mission one in August um this year, August to the end of the year and we're hoping to showcase that um next March in Dubai. There's something coming up there in Dubai. Um and so we're looking for schools that might want to sign up for that. But at the moment the biggest thing is um Greg space teams program. We um Greg doesn't know this, but I've actually assisted 130 kids to get grants to the tune of nearly $70,000 so that they can uh register and enroll in Greek's program. Um and I'm on the hunt for more and I'm also on the hunt for kids who might want to get a scholarship because I've got an opportunity I might be able to get them in for free if they um contact me. So um you know, all these things going on, but we ran the first ever Australia's virtual space mission and it was mad. It was absolutely crazy. This um Wings magazine, I can send you the link has got the article about it. Six hours a day for six days. I was dead by the end. Greg nearly killed me. I tell you, it was fullon. It was great. The kids loved it. Building planets, building spaceships, flying spaceships, learning from like Greg's mate, Greg, um Greg Johnson, teaching them how to what it's like to fly a spacecraft compared to flying an aircraft. So, you have an astronaut who's a shuttle pilot for an hour talking to you in real time, so you can ask any questions you like. Um, so he talks about how it's different. And then, um, Ben Morel, who's from Sydney Uni, who works at NASA JPL, um, a friend that Greg's introduced me to, Mars robots. So, He talks for an hour about Mars rovers and stuff. So when the kids are talking about traversing on their planet, um Ben gives them a one-hour lecture and you can ask any questions you want. So every day there's an expert in the field. Um Todd Barber talks about orbital mechanics, but he refers to it as galactic ballet. Um and he's u he's a really cool guy who we brought one giant leaf Australia brought him out to Australia um two years in a row. Um, honestly, I cannot tell you how cool this space teams program is. Um, we've got I've convinced Greg to do it on the 4th of July. Can you believe it? 4th of July to the 9th of July. And um, and also too, I've asked him to do one in science week. So, schools are looking for something to sign up to for their kids to do in science week. It's all day, six days straight. So, I can tell Jackie I did it with you. You know, I've done I've done two space teams events now as a mentor. I've sat on those look I'm wearing the jacket and everything. No, you know, and it's amazing to hear, like you said, just to have somebody who's done it telling you about how to do it. That's that's mind-blowing for the kids that are on it. And then for me, as I sat there as a mentor and I'm trying to help these kids land their their their orbital module on the planet, by the way, I crashed it every single time. Greg did not send me into space as much as I wanted to go. I clearly be a liability. But I look, you know, you know, just to reiterate some of the points you may but it that space teams program it is so empowering for kids to do things that are outside of the scope of you know traditionally what kids might particularly kids in Australia who you know up until recently a space program was something that happened somewhere else in Australia uh and that is starting to change and you know what you're doing with space teams is great so you know whatever we can do to amplify that get more kids involved get more schools leading it get more parents to be connected to it and of course we continue to be happy mentors of that program I would sign up again in a shot to do it because, you know, I just space nerd. It's just fun to do. Um, so yeah, whatever we can do to get people doing that. But but Jackie and Greg, I we're kind of getting close to time, but I wanted to ask you because I was at Space Forum, as I said, just last week and, uh, Enrio of the space the Australian Space Agency and the minister uh, the the premier, sorry, in South Australia, uh, Marshall made some statements around the ambitions for the Australian space agency and space industry. And I'm sure you're probably aware of this, but what was most impactful, and I'd like to get your thoughts on it is the ambition to actually have an astronaut training program and an astronaut system here in Australia building the future of astronauts kind of what are your thoughts on on the potential for that break maybe start with you finally finally I've been waiting for this yeah you know I I I lived in Australia for a couple of years and 93 to 95 and then came back again uh for five years part-time you know to the university Sydney uh in uh 2013 and um you know that we were talking about this the whole time you know that this is this is going to come eventually um you know you know it happened in Canada you know many years before and there was a very good model for making that work you know where there's certain technologies that that uh you know each country can provide and export and can help to create their their space industry and their space program and when it reaches a certain point you know then uh you're you know then it's possible to have your you know a real space agency which and that now was finally happened if you know several years ago now already and um and then you know next thing is to have your own uh training program in your own operations and there are oper there are space operations happening you know in Australia controlling you know and monitoring satellites and um that's already been going on for quite some time and so this is the next step and it's fantastic news and of course you of course you've had a couple of um Australian astronauts um and uh you know and um they're they're both you know wonderful people that I've spent some time with um Andy Thomas much more than uh than others but anyway it's uh it you know uh that they had to go through a very circuitous path to get there and being able to do it you know directly through Australia will be fantastic and I know I have a lot of students down there who will be signing up for that program. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. It's awesome. And let's um let's hope that that is a beacon for for people to want to get into the industry. One of the things that I found surprising in spending time with our own um space people in uh at Microsoft is just how diverse the roles are in the space industry and and how space is a place for everyone. I wondered if we could just close out by just reflecting on what you you think is the important element in trying to attract a diverse set of people to these types of jobs. and roles because even though astronaut being an astronaut is a cool idea, you don't have to be wanting to go out to space. It can it can kind of ignite a lot of different passions. Do you have any thoughts about that? Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you brought that up because then that's something that we try to you know hit on in space as well and that you know the the there's so you know just about every you know almost every career you can think of has a role in space if that's the arena that you want to apply it to you know and and specifically of course you know engineering you know and science and med And but but you know many many others law it could be there's you know every arena you can think of there's a there's a there's a uh there's there's a space application for that and and whatever it is it's growing in the future. So we've been talking about plants you know growing plants in space. Well space horticulture is this is a brand new field and it's going to grow immensely you know over the years to comes because we want to be able to be sustainable and we talked a little bit earlier about being sustainable. It's also part of the space team program is you know they try to build their missions So when they get to their final planet, they can find the resources to live there and and live there sustainably, you know, for as long as they want to stay, maybe forever. Um, and so, uh, you know, horiculture, for is a great example of just something that's really budding, you know, um, field. I do like that pun. It is actually on purpose. I was um, I was talking to a florist the other day who wants to apply to our women in space program we're running here in South Australia. So, I will make sure to go and speak with her and say that actually you these are transferable skills and I I I assume that they wouldn't be but um you know flowers in space perhaps that your next movie as well Greg um thank you so so much for spending time with us to tell to tell us about the amazing scope of work that you're leading uh on behalf of budding astronauts everywhere but especially the budding astronauts and and space industry people of of Australia. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you both. Been a pleasure. Thanks everybody. Discovery Houston 20 seconds to lost Ted Dris. Nice to be in orbit.

In this podcast, Dan Bowen, Beth Worrall, and Lee Hickin talk about the Metaverse. They discuss what it may be and their personal thoughts on how it will be developed and used.

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 1

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hi, welcome to the AI podcast with Beth Wara, Lee Hickin, and me, Dan. Hi, Beth. Hi, Lee. How are you? I'm I'm not important now. It's just all about Beth. I know that. So, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. You've been usurped. I have. That's okay. I'm I'm used to that. So, I know. Great to see you, Beth. Yes. Well, I am uh very excited to be here. So, for the first podcast of the year, and I'm excited to to plan it out with you both and um and offer my two cents uh as as weak as it probably will be. We're just pleased you came back. We thought, you know, after Christmas break, you'd think about it and go, "Oh, you know, that was a really bad idea to commit to that." Super idea. Such was the demand from listeners. is that I felt compelled to come back. Absolutely. I think we all did. Um Yes. My mom definitely. I think she's our only listener at the minute. But um and they've come in like thinking about the fact that we probably haven't talked to each other for quite some time now. We've been over the summer break in in the southern hemisphere. My uh folks landed from uh the UK last week and that we hadn't seen them for four years. So the end of not saying the end of co that's touch wood touch everything but people reconnecting over the summer. Um, doing stations locally in Australia, catching up with people without masks on, with the masks on. I suppose it's a summer of reconnection. Yes, definitely. Best way to put it. Well, it was like like I mean, you say reconnecting. I was just thinking about traveling and I went traveling for the first time in such a long time. I was just saying to you before we started recording about getting on a plane and going down to the Barasa and how unusual it was to be actually not just traveling. I mean, I almost forgot had to do the airport thing for a bit um having done it so much. But uh but it was great to just be out and meeting people. You know, we're putting masks on, but we're just getting on with it and just doing, you know, normal things. So that was that was great to be out there and doing it. Did you get out at all, Beth? Did you do any travel? Yes, I did. So, um although albeit not particularly exotic. So, we stayed in South Australia, but we did a couple of trips around. And you know, I guess the the um silver lining of CO is is that appreciation for what's in our own backyard. So, I'm doing my bit for local tourism to to try and see um some of the the lovely places of uh South Australia. But it, you know, just in the last couple of weeks from a work perspective, it has also been a bit of a a reconnection for me as well. And you know, just this week, I was meeting people for the first time that I have had um I've been working with them for for two years. And to actually see them face to face face was a wonderful experience, but also it just reminded me of how um how much I've missed it. How much I've missed that kind of face to face actual contact and um interaction in real life. I think it also reminded me of how short I am and how I physically short physically short I assume that everyone is about the same height and it's um sadly that is not the case and I'm actually a lot shorter than I had um in in my mind. So, it's been sobering, shall we say? I I met somebody who I'd known for 10 years on Twitter and they didn't even realize I was Welsh. That was quite bizarre. The other thing, the reconnection point was that there's a bit of a void or a gap in inclusivity. Having helped my mom uh come across from the UK, the systems across multigos very very different. You know, the vaccination proofs and things like that. And for people people, you know, who aren't technically savvy. It's very hard to actually connect to society in a way that's easy. In Australia, we've got the app and the New South Wales app and you assume everybody can use it, but actually technology isn't easy to use, right? And and and you know, the the there was about three apps there to download in the UK and you know, they had to download to go into NHS, get the vaccination status, then you've got to do PCR, then you've got to do Australian thing, then there's a family exemption form. and and all of these things you've got to do all absolutely geared around technology but none of the systems connected all independent you got to do them in the right order then when you get to Australia you got to do almost like the same thing and prove evidence it's it just reminds you that we've come so far with a lot of the technology but we also are not including a lot of people in in in in the same thing and you think how many people have missed out or or have had to struggle uh during this pandemic if only there was some kind of digital virtual experience where you could come together and do all of these things in the same way in the same place regardless of the country you're in or the language you speak. What what what what would that be if it was like a sort of a a universe that wasn't real? What what would you call that? Would it be a metaverse? Maybe. Maybe. Lee, maybe we should talk about it in this. What do you think, Beth? Yes. Well, um I'm I'm very interested to talk about that, but uh to your earlier point about inclusion. Dan, I think we I was party to a conversation last week with a customer in working in government health and this is an area that they're really starting to to look at, you know, what can they do now to better include people who um who have been left behind by this kind of trend and reliance on technology. Um, and it's it's interesting in the metaverse, are we just exacerbating that problem that we already have by creating a whole new world for people to interact more about the metaverse. I I must admit I I would like to know a little bit more about about it. I've um I'm hoping it's um it's not going to require me to get a Mark Zuckerberg haircut. Um in tell me more, Lee. Well, look, maybe the haircut becomes irrelevant because in the metaverse, doesn't matter what your real hair looks like. You can have the most beautiful hair virtually, of course, in the metaverse. Where do we start, Dan? How's the What? Like I'm trying to the best way to describe it. I I I think before we even describe that, I think going to your point at the beginning to to think back and again, you know, we always talk about history and the way things connect at the minute in Dubai, they've got the Grand Expo there. Um I know Jackie was coming on our podcast uh from one giant leap is is there at the minute uh in Australia got a presence there and those expos I suppose have brought people together to I think the first one in Crystal Pal or whatever was was kind of brought together by you know Prince Albert Victoria's husband Queen Victoria Queen Victoria's husband that's exactly right and it was Prince somebody um but uh but I remember the um being Welsh see I know all the princes and the kings of England but um bringing technology and ideas together from around the world and learning from each other and being part of one area I suppose and like we're doing now in the big big expose in in Dubai and the like. You know, I think we've always tried to bring people together and and bring communities together, haven't we? And and from an education point of view, I think about Second Life and the work that Bron Stucky and lots of the team across the the world are doing and have done in education over the last years and universities where you bring people together in those global environments and and then also the way that people bring communities together for hybrid work and how you keep your teams together. So, I suppose it's gone historically and I suppose what I'm thinking about it's all about communities and connections and connecting together and obviously that's taken a turn recently with technology with Facebook changing it name to Meta and lots of tech companies mentioning this and I think it's left people a little bit in the dark by thinking well you know we're inventing the plane as we flying in some cases and that's why we're all scratching our heads think I don't have the answer but and I think Dan the way you describe it is nice way to think about it you know this idea that it is really about bringing people together but I think The truth of the matter is it's almost been a corrupted term. I mean and you know the sort of generalized acceptance of the knowledge of the term being brought up um in snow crash as this idea of a almost the escapism but really in fact it's kind of a way that to almost hyper hyper emphasize the the discrepancies in society. The idea that there that if you rebuilt society in this virtual way you could really separate the the halves and the have nots those that the you know the the wealth and the elite and the and the not so wealthy and it became a sort of a way to almost to think about the idea of rebuilding society. Now if you look at the narrative of what you know Mark Zuckerberg and others talk about when they talk about the metaverse and the idea they're still talking about re reinventing society reinventing the way in which we interact and transact you know then things like unfortunately the metaverse NFTTS and web 3.0 or web 3 whatever it's called are all sort of now becoming a bit inextricably linked together on this idea that people against the system. We can break down what used to be. We can build it all on the blockchain, which almost makes me vomit a little bit in my mouth when I say those words, but we build it on the blockchain and it's kind of this nobody owns it but everyone is involved in it kind of idea. I think that's a nice idea to your point, Stan, but the reality is is it going to be like that? I mean, what really is the metaverse beyond simply just, you know, a virtual place where we go and interact and play games. Now, is it going to replace how we do it today? Is it going to replace physical connectivity? I still think to me there's a real challenge between replacement versus augmenting. Does the metaverse create this new place where we can do something new? And granted, we can do amazing things in the metaverse. You know, not, you know, not to use Ready Player One as an example, but that idea that it can literally be the playground of your dreams. And people who are to your point earlier about inclusiveness, you know, people who are either wheelbound, wheelchair bound or have limited vision or limited hearing or limited sight or any other uh situation they're dealing with dayto-day a metaverse changes that you can be who you want to be and you can experience life in different ways but can it replace some of the physicality of all the things we just talked about I think this is where to me I find I get lost a bit in the rhetoric of how amazing it's going to be because it really is going to be fun but is it going to be amazing and change our world not so sure and I had a conversation the other day with a with a customer of of mine and we just talking talking about this and and they were thinking of different view points on it and I think there's a there's a not a cynicism coming through but there's also different companies have got different thoughts on what that is and and and some may be harder driven say for example and some you know so it might be pushing down the VR route um so people think okay well the next thing we going to invent is whatever and and and that's I I think your analogy there is great because for me having used VR previously and used hollow lens and I'm not this isn't anything about any particular company but VR was very much that immersive experience where you're inside a world and you you you were covered inside, you know, you're in there, you know, you fall over and walk into walls and things. Whereas the mixed reality experience is very different where you're adding that data and uh AI on top of the current world. So you, you know, you're actually operating on somebody who's in a a particular operating theater and you're remote assisting them, you know, to to actually understand how that operation's happening. And I think That would be where you know I I and some of that technology and that that's the thing when you talk about these things and you start talking to family friends and and you know CIOS and things like that some of that stuff's there already. So we've almost got in my mind a metaverse and people are building layers upon it. Um what do you think then? Yeah it's uh you again I I feel like um I'm a bit unsure about what it will all mean. I do remember um when Second Life was you know and everything that that people were talking about. And um I remember meeting someone who introduced me to their wife um their their partner and that they were the wife in real life but also in Second Life. And I thought that that was quite an unusual distinction that that he would feel the need to specify that they were also married in Second Life. And so um you know to to your point Lee that we can build this utopian society and be anything that we want I wonder what you know where people are going to take that and if we can't make our current world livable for a big chunk of the population what might that mean in a a metaverse you know also how might we um I wonder from a government perspective you know are we creating a utopia or will it be a wild west you know can people get are people going to be vulnerable to attacks are people going to be you know, having to to protect themselves in a in an environment that none of us really understand, let alone the um you know, the legislators, who who will protect us in a in a a world that transcends national borders, what will that mean from a legal perspective? Um you make a you make a actually a really interesting point, Beth, which is, you know, you talk about your friend from Second Life who you was married in real life and in the virtual life, and it made me realize, you know, in deference to what I just said about the fact that I don't necessarily see it being that thing. We can't dismiss it as as a as a as a game or a fad or an idea. If you think about Second Life at the time, which was early 2000s, technology, it was a it wasn't realistic, you know, as if you ever saw it. It was kind of basic looking, but it was fun and people engaged in it. People bought real things or fake things in the real with real money. But then you hear so how many stories you hear about people who've met their partner online. You know, they play Halo together or they play Sims together and they've done these things. And as I talk to my kids who are kind of living in this different kind of world to what I live in to and do you see the shift in the normality of it to say well actually to you and I of our generation it seems incredulous to think that there is this you that will be the world you'd live in but at the same time to a new generation it's perfectly normal to meet friends virtually and that is how you engage. So I think there's a fairness to say that actually as the technology gets better and it is more realistic and more immersive and more it captures your emotions more. Never say never. And maybe we do see this world where actually, you know, generations of humans from from now experience a better life there than they do perhaps sometimes in their real life. As scary as that may seem to us, but that's possible. But that that also, you know, I'm thinking back to when I used to teach and and talk about e safety a lot. And then we were talking about, you know, I always used to say how many friends you have on Facebook, how many this is before Instagram and like, you know, how many friends you have on those social platforms? Whether it was my space in the day, you know, and and like I do the same with my kids now. You know, my daughter has got a Tik Tok account and she's got like thousands of followers and she doesn't know them all. And the conversation 10 years ago, 50, whenever was was very much around, you know, that's dangerous and they're not friends. There's a there's a difference between friends and there's a difference between like your connections now. Um, so it it's not as sinister as it was, although the threats are still the same from a safety point of view, obviously. ly, but um then you start thinking well you can see why social media companies are interested in metaverse areas because it's about connecting people and connecting lots of people together because then but then we go down that rabbit hole that we've had before around AI where the algorithm dictates the people that you meet and dictates the interests you've got and uh and then we get in that dangerous land as well. So you can see I suppose just in our conversation here why uh some companies are going down that route already. It's about those connections and about fostering that. So, well, here's an interesting point for us to think about. Have we all had a personal experience of the metaverse or at least a some version of it? Uh, you know, for me, I do because I have an Oculus Quest and I kind of put off this whole VR thing. I thought, well, you know, it's a it's expensive and b what's the point? And it was a bit like that moment if you remember when you got a mobile phone for the first time and you kind of put it on and went, why didn't I do this 10 years ago? This is amazing. And I must admit that I when you first try out at the experience, it is totally and completely immersive and it is a wonderful experience from a entertainment point of view and I can sort of start to see the snippets of how I might choose to uh watch movies collaboratively in Oculus on my VI headset. You watch large screen movies bigger than any TV I've got in 3D in collaboration with one of you also wearing a headset. So I started to see these ideas of it, but for me it's still caught up in that world. of its escapism. It's a place I go to to do something that is clearly just gaming or or or you know fantastic in its experience. But I must admit for me that the first time I put on a VR headset and I'll be honest with you and I'm just Microsoft guy. I put on a hollow lens long before that and did mixed reality and was less excited for me. I kind of went oh this is cool interesting but I didn't want to go back and do it more. The VR headset that fully immersive is a bit of a dopamine hit and you put it on and you're like oh wow this is you know this feels very real. So I don't know to Beth Dan have you ever tried VR or tried other versions of this kind of approach? Uh as as the um as the heathen of the group I would say um I have had very limited experience. I have tried a hollow lens and I actually it actually made me feel physically sick and I know that there um you know the the some of the the limitations of some of the the gadgets that would that are out there now do have issues relating to making people feel dizzy or nauseous and you know doing the roller coasters but even just moving around with it on I found quite unusual. So I I'm probably one of those people that adopts the technology much much later um and when it's a lot less cool I'm unfortunately one of those late late adopters. So um for me I think I I can understand the value and the excitement of of it um being an addition to gaming. But as I'm not really a gamer, I I haven't um I haven't used it. And and I think it's it's an interesting it's an interesting idea, but I just wonder, you I try not to get too sucked into the hype around these things. And for me, I'm I'm just not sure if it's just more hype, especially looking to one particular organization that has has tried to kind of seize mind share in regard to this technology is a that particular organization is not an organization that I really admire that much. Yeah, I think of defining what this is going to be. Um, you know, I almost don't want to be part of it. Um, and you nothing beats a, you know, a a pint of beer in a pub with someone you can see with your own eyes. I think I think she just invited us for a drink down. That's what I thought I'd get. I know. I'm on my way like I think I think there's a couple of things le um the um from my point of view I think I've seen some really great stuff from my experience I used VR initially and it was okay but it wasn't great and again like we've always had when the people have gone into that it's been limited in applications so 3D and things like that it was always great but there was limited 3D models from an education point of view where we'd start to push the cutting edge with like this 3D or even in the defense industry the models had to be developed individually and they got very very expensive to develop. You know, like the inside of a submarine to do defense training or whatever it might be, you know, they cost millions of dollars to actually implement. So, and then you had the de dem democratization of it through things like Google Cardboard where kids in school putting things on their face, the mobile phone with a Google Cardboard insert kind of thing, and then you'd be able to look around an interactive video or like a place in Rome. and you go to places and do that. But then I suppose it's the opposite to you guys. I thought the hollow lens stuff took it to the next level because that was really really interesting because that's what I thought that it was you weren't just in this environment that was like a game because I totally understand where you're coming from Lee, you know, and I think this is an interesting way to think about it as well from gaming and and and you know, Xbox and PlayStation and and Nintendo where they're going to take the metaverse. But when I'm looking at it, I'm thinking, well, you know, when I was watching kids go from m Minecraft using the Windows, you know, so I was demoing in schools and then they'd go into the VR version of Minecraft. They would get blown away. You'd watch them and they'd go, "Wow, I'm now inside this amazing world I've just created in Minecraft and it would blow their minds and they were in it and they you'd see that moment of immersion every time." And then sometimes with people who were in wheelchairs and things utilizing uh kids in wheelchairs utilizing VR, they'd blow their minds. It was like they can move things around and and the the where that's gone with the Oculus um Quest and the like is just the fidelity now and the the way you can interact is phenomenal. But I did like the hollow lens only because it felt to me as if it was it had more of a real impact in terms of you could see through it. You're augmenting the world rather than being in like a VR world. And I worry about that people thinking metaverse like you said Lee earlier on about NFTTS and things that I think the the general consumer is thinking metaverse is a VR world where I buy avatars and NFTTS and kind of do things there and that's where I worry quite okay I agree and that I did make that comment about web 3 and and NFTs because there is a kind of this association with them all being part of the same sort of uh evolutionary step in in technology but I heard a phrase the other day which I wanted to share with you both because I I just I was thinking about it more and more as I heard it and it relates the idea about you know not to we're not going to talk anything about Activision Blizzard purchases but would think about why gaming has suddenly become such an important part of big business and the ecosystem is I heard this phrase serious gaming and the idea was that what we're seeing because as we're evolving to these experiences online either through business world you know we think about things like remote assist and using these experiences as well as in our downtime and and entertainment they're essentially merging and blurring and and the development of the new worlds in which we want to operate in online are being driven by game development and game experiences and game mechanisms. And so very quickly, yeah, game developers, content creators in the gaming world who are very good at creating photorealistic environments that simulate the real world are suddenly the new darlings of what is going to be this metaverse because that's the world that's going to be created. And you think about those experiences we want to create for people, the meaningful experiences, not the pointless ones. You want it to be realistic and engaging. and and then feel like a game but know that it's an experience you're you're you're getting involved in. So there's this real bleed. This is this idea of serious gaming that gaming ideas and methodologies and content and creating bleeds into serious development of you know world and experiences and and things that we do. So I think it's it kind of for me takes some of the sting out of the tale of the the the metaverse being just this vacuous hole of of nothingness and people buying bought eight t-shirts for a million dollars that they don't actually own they just own the URL uh you know into something where they're actually like you know then you might say well the man the metaverse now it might matter now we could actually use and need a metaverse because it becomes something that creates things that people need today people actually people you know who need it because it creates experiences they couldn't have any other way in the world and and that's really important I don't know it's a really hard one um and it's certainly not one that I think you know in the same way that a lot of technology now just infuses itself into our lives Speaking of which, by the way, I started doing Wordle over the Christmas break and now I cannot. Yeah, it's an addiction. So, see how technology just becomes part of it. Don't do it. Um, but as it becomes part of it and it sort of its way into it, yeah, we need some ground rules. You know, Dan, previous episodes Beth P, we talked about the, you know, the the the laws of robotics, you know, then Isaac Azimov's view on that. But I think feels like the metaverse, like AI and all these things kind of needs some guardrails to the rules of don't talk about it. That's the first step. Yeah, we've broken that one already. We talked about these um things previously as well or orally jac when we talking about AI and ethics and the how you standardize. So there's some rules of the metaverse, right? That there's a framework that was it Tony Par you found. Yeah, he put together put together an idea of it. Well, let let's talk about there's seven of them. I don't think we need to go through all of them, but we can kind of group on them together, but and it's by no means the rules. It's a framework. or an idea about what we need to think about because to Beth's point earlier, you know, we've got Facebook and all these organizations kind of taking on that lead role in the in the metaverse and I think we'd all agree that, you know, Facebook has it place in people's lives, but maybe it's not the place that owns this virtual life that we live in. But it sort of says, okay, well, with all of these things happening, there should only be one metaverse. At the end of the day, if there's 25, 100 different metaverses, they stop being metaverses. They start being uh, you know, corporate cataloges or uh games in individual games. There has to be one otherwise what is the point if it's not we all live in one universe so there should be one metaverse and the confusion in there as well is like I went to see that Spider-Man movie with my kids the multiverse I think that's another thing that's throwing the spanner in the works with all of this terminology isn't it like hold on are we going to get into metaphysics now we're going to really break our brain no please not you say no there should be one I get that here's the really interesting on uh because I think this is kind of actually the core of it. The metaverse needs to be for everyone and in that in that definition it means that there is no price of entry. There is no purchase mechanism required to get in and there is no means by which you can get a better metaverse with more money. And I think that's something that's you know really important and I think Beth you know the work you do around sort of thinking about social value and all these things and and thinking about how technology should be leveling and including everyone not actually creating barriers. I think that's actually what you said up up front, wasn't it? About credit. Exactly. And and and I think the challenge here is that um if if you kind of understand there's a requirement for infrastructure and and physical devices to access a metaverse, then immediately you're excluding probably the vast majority of people that wouldn't be able to afford those devices. I guess if if you kind of flip that, most people now have a mobile mobile phone of some description and if there was to be a metaverse that was truly inclusive then could we retrofit it to a platform that is much much older and I think the the short answer is no but um you it does I can't see that this will be accessible to everyone um that said and and picking up on your point Dan about children in wheelchairs some of the work that Microsoft has done uh for Xbox in you know making devices actually physically accessible to um to people who are gaming with um a disability is really inspirational. And if if we are building a metaverse that is inclusive, I I would hope that um that some of those devices would take into consideration how they can be modified for people with disabilities and and and that is only really the the application that I can think of a metaverse that that is exciting ing um you know if if it can create opportunities for people who have been excluded for physical disabilities then then it suddenly I can I can get get with the program and actually think it's a good thing but as as you're talking you know it it for me it feels like it's almost technology looking for a problem to solve as opposed to starting with the problem in the first place. So we've got all of this technology and gaming you and people you know, the vast majority of users in this area are gamers and and and that has accelerated the development. And in looking at that infrastructure, it's almost like how do we deploy that for other purposes, but it's looking for the problem to solve. We're not starting with the problem first, or at least that's that's my Yeah, I think you're right. We're not to a degree, yes, it's technology, and then we're sort of figuring out how people might use it, which is yeah, not always the right way, but I I don't know if I I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with with you that it is purely as cleancut as just you know this is some cool technology and then we'll figure out where it goes. I think there's a sense of to a certain degree society and human instinct pushes us in directions that is symbiotic with technology and we do things because technology enables us to and then technology enables us to do it better and we move forward. I mean you the evolution of the mobile phone into the device that is today is a great example of how it it has changed the way we exist but it's also created tremendous opportunities and whilst we might not have known 25 years ago what it was like. We could never have foreseen it. So, it would be hard for us to say, well, we don't need a metaverse because we don't need one today. I mean, it's the old adage of, you know, well, if I asked people what they wanted when they want when I was building the car, they would have asked for faster horses because that's what they wanted. So, I think there's a bit of a ch there's a not not but you're right on I think the hardware thing that the whole point you made about the hardware and I it got me thinking about one particular issue is because the idea again next rule of this is that the metaverse should be hardware independent. Anyone should have access to it with whatever hardware and I'm sure very smart people could figure out ways that your average mobile phone could be a way to connect in. But it did get me thinking and I don't think we want to dive too deeply into it because I don't know any of us are experts but the metaverse is largely defined as being a visually enhancing experience. You you see it, you experience it. And I wonder how feasible is to think about an audioescribed metaverse. You know, what does that actually look like in the same way that and I've I've seen some podcasts on people people who who are blind who watch movies with audio uh descriptions, audio captioning and I mean to them it's it's a very immersive experience. So maybe it's hard for me to see here as you know fully cited to kind of go well I don't know how you do that. Maybe when you live in that world it's a different way to think about it but it is interesting when you say about hardware independency. How do you build VR goggles for someone that does not use their eyes in the same way that you or I do? Yeah and and Lee when you talk about it as a visual experience I think that's an interesting one. as well. So if co has taught us nothing, it's taught us about the power of human interaction which is that face-toface interaction. If you think about a human being, we have the taste, you know, we have the sense of taste, smell, touch, hearing, and and vision. And if this is going to be a visual experience, it's I can't see it will ever replace even if people have these incredible awesome lives and you can be whatever you want, on in in your new second life. Um, you know, I just wonder if it's ever going to be able to replace that face to face human interaction that ultimately is I I think what it means to be human to to give someone a hug or to, you know, to cook something together. It's I can't I can't see that this met is ever going to be the have a the colleague. I I I tend to agree with you, but I like I I think there's I think the danger that everybody in society is getting that it is going to be this um you know fantastical VR environment and maybe it is maybe that is an element of it but maybe it's also more than that you know in terms of the the like I was saying about that layered approach um uh you know obviously we're not going to talk about what the different companies are doing in these areas I suppose because everybody's doing different things but but like I said when I was speaking to a customer the other day I was talking to them about the experience that they've got already because sometimes it's like when you when you pair it back as well and you say to somebody what do you want in a learning platform for example and they'll say well we want a way to be able to deliver content and assess work and automate that um and and sometimes they can do that with tools they already have they don't need to go out and buy a learning platform and then they realize so is it about connection and talking about learning improving learning outcomes for example so I suppose what I'm saying is I I still worry myself. I don't think, you know, I know the one particular company is angling for this 3D world, VR elements to it. And maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm also thinking that in an enterprise, your metaverse might be tools and technologies to connect people in a better way or actually be able to um partake in Teams meetings or whatever meetings you're having uh in a in a slightly different way almost like a hybrid approach maybe. Maybe there's a there's a hybrid element to all of this. Yeah, I think I think you're right. I think that's if if I was to take away anything from our conversation, it almost is that it is we need hybrids. We can't have there's no ultimates in here. There's no ultimatums here. There's no this or that. It's a hybrid, at least for now until either technology or society catches up and moves in a specific direction. Um it needs to be a combination of both. Um and I think that's really important. And you made a point there, Dan. I think you you kind of talked about you don't rebuild things that already exist. or you know build on the work we've already got. That's the other key thing. The last point around these kind of rules of the metaverse u you know there is only one metaverse. It's for everyone. It's it's independent and nobody controls it. And the last one is this idea that the metaverse is a network and it is really the internet and we don't want to go rebuilding the internet. This is I think some of the concerns around when I think about web 3.0 and this idea we're going to rebuild another internet that's decentralized and we could talk for another hour about the the reasons why that's a really bad idea but or at least a good idea poorly executed. Um but I think that's another important thing is the metaverse should exist in the things that we have today. It should be an extension of what we know today in the worlds we live in today. Um because I think that the end that's one of the things again if you go back to that serious gaming thing what uh and the inclusivity piece we talked about earlier on if you think about how people um interact with systems and services there was a great story I heard the other day about you know my grandmother uh actually well I'm not my grandmother because she's been long past but you know People of that era would never use computing in computer games, never pick up an Xbox controller. It is completely alien to them to think about using a device like that. It is a young person's game if you want to kind of call it that very brutally. But when the Wii Nintendo launched the Wii and they created this spatial experience, this idea that you didn't actually hold a computer that control it and you held a thing and you interacted with the world in that meaningful way. Now, if you start to think about the evolution of that into this metaverse world where the design of our system we interact with are spatially aware. So, humans interact with them in the way that they naturally behave. There is no requirement. Dan, to your point really early on about the complexities of See, I told you we'd get back to building a metaverse. The the complexities of having different systems and it looks different, it behaves different. But if you did it innately, if it was like you pulled up a piece of paper and wrote on it in a virtual environment, that's how you signed your COVID certificate and it didn't matter what the technology behind it was. That's where I think then you start to get into this idea that, you know, gaming technologies, 3D spatial awareness, virtual environments and the metaverse creates a place where actually humans can behave perhaps more like humans than they do today with computers. Yeah, I'll throw that one out there as a mic drop moment. I know like and and and and to think about there you know we've come into this uh first episode of the series trying to take on one of the topics that's happening at the minute and I think uh everybody's done admirably to kind of try to um talk about where we where we stand with the metaverse. So everybody listening to this if they can't cars and at home can think about what what they think the metaverse is and how that would apply in their industry with this health, you know, sustainability, disabilities, inclusion. There's so many areas that this this could actually work. But that's been a brilliant first episode. But before we go on to episode two, thinking about it, Beth, you've got some interesting things that happened today, haven't you? Wow. Yeah. Oh, this week. Yes. So, I have spent the last couple of months working with Lyn McDonald who is our Azure space lead for Microsoft and we have cooked up and launched a program in South Australia but with grand plans to expand nationally. Um and the intent with that program is to give women an opportunity to get a foot in the door of a career in space defense and technology. So we're working with a partner called modus who are part of the adeco group and we're taking a tech academy model from Europe to and we're expanding it here in South Australia to start with and then the ambition is to extend it um nationally. And the reason why I'm so excited apart from trying to to um encourage more women into technology, there was a report out last week from the tech council that talked about the power of technology roles and um and they found that getting anyone into a tech job is the single biggest way that we can drive social mobility in Australia because technology as an industry is so agnostic in regard to um uh your your cultural background or your your kind of academic background. So it's uh to yes we will have a conversation with Lynn coming up. She's an incredibly interesting and passionate person and um and she can tell you a little bit more about our program. Hopefully by then we may have some women already appointed into into the program as well. That'll be so good. I saw the launch photograph today and it was it was fantastic. So, well done, Beth. That's brilliant. But thanks again both for for um coming together and starting off our season. We've got some really exciting guests coming up and we're going to start talking about space and there's lots going on. So, the metaverse. Wow. We've covered that one today. Well, I think we might have just scratched the surface, but we did a good start. Yeah, maybe we'll have to revisit it in a year and see where we are. Good idea. Look forward to it. Thanks, Dad. Thanks. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Bman. Hello. Hey.