Analyze Scripts

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. In this rereleased episode, we are thrilled to be joined by Dr. Tobias Wasser, a forensic psychiatrist from Yale University, in analyzing the 2010 film "Shutter Island." Dr. Wasser explains how forensic psychiatry bridges the gap between the criminal justice and mental health care systems. He describes what it's really like to work on a forensic psychiatry unit and compares his experience to that depicted in the film. We also ask him to explain the difference between competency to stand trial and the NGRI (not guilty by reason of insanity) plea. He also shares his opinions about our favorite narcissistic psychopaths - Joe Goldberg, Logan Roy, and Tom Wambsgans. We learned a ton and hope you enjoy!

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're absolutely annihilating the 2004 film "The Notebook." I bet we all remember where we were when we saw Rachel and Ryan reenact that steamy kiss at the MTV Movie Awards! As adults with fully formed frontal lobes and years of therapy experience, we have a LOT of criticisms about this movie. We dive into the toxic relationship dynamics between Noah and Allie, criticize some inaccurate depictions of medical treatments, and shame the film for romanticizing dementia. Sorry to release such a downer for Valentine's Day! We hope you enjoy!

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are rereleasing our episode analyzing "White Lotus" Season 2. In this season we follow Tanya and Greg to beautiful Sicily where the water is a dreamy blue and the passion red hot. This season has received 23 Emmy nominations and we think they deserve them all! We continue to analyze Tanya for a personality disorder, discuss the power and currency of sex, and talk all things complicated relationships. If you are missing this season come along with us to admire the clothing, food and of course their mental health. We hope you enjoy!

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are thrilled to speak with Dr. Z, an expert in the field on narcissism. We look at Oliver Quick through our mental health lens and debate sociopathy versus narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Elspeth, Farleigh, Felix and Venetia are discussed, too, as we see how extreme wealth can lead to their own set of personality traits. Finally, Dr. Z convinces Dr. Furey she does not have NPD, (Portia already knew this). We hope you enjoy!

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are rereleasing our episode covering "White Lotus" Season 1. Who doesn't love this show?! In this episode, we dig into the toxic interpersonal dynamics depicted in all of the relationships amongst the main characters. We spend a lot of time analyzing Tanya's manipulation of Belinda and discuss which behaviors are consistent with borderline personality disorder (BPD). We also explore what keeps Rachel and Mark connected to Shane and Nicole, respectively, and poke fun at Olivia's "wokeness." We hope you enjoy! PS RIP Armond.

[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five, and enjoy. Hi, welcome back. We are so excited you're joining us today to talk about the hit HBO show White Lotus Season One, as part of our Jennifer Coolidge July Celebration. We hope everyone had a really wonderful July 4 weekend, and we hope you ate all the hot dogs you could get your hands on. Yeah, I did. Porsche. I want to start a little differently than usual because something just really interesting happened to me during my July 4 celebration. Okay. I went with my family to Legoland, which is a really wonderful place for little kids. And on July 4, they had this whole celebration. They had really cool fireworks with 3D glasses, where when the fireworks exploded, they looked like Legos. I thought that was really cool, and I was really trying to figure out the science because not every light was connected to a Lego. So it had something to do with the frequency and the electrons, and I just get really nerdy about these things. But then they also had a fire dancer, right? Like, would you expect that at a child theme park? No. And so we Legoland.

[01:58] Portia Pendleton: Maybe like Disney World.

[01:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, they had a fire dancer. They were really pulling out all the stops. They also had the Brick Street Boys, because everything is like brick themed with the Lego brick, everything's brick tastic. And, you know, I love the Max Tree Boys, so that was titillating. But this fire dancer, we stumbled across her as we were leaving, and obviously we had to stop and watch her and just imagine she is like five foot zero at the most. Like, on a good day. She's itty bitty, teeny tiny, wearing a full on white unitard, like full on bodysuit with red and white horizontal stripes, so she looks like a firecracker. And then she had this beautiful bleach blonde hair, but with these long, long bangs and these bright red lips.

[02:49] Portia Pendleton: Oh, no.

[02:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I kept worrying, like, is her hair going to catch on fire? Right? I was just like, I loved her look, her hair is wonderful.

[02:56] Portia Pendleton: Or it is.

[02:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know. I would think your hair would catch on fire. But then I think also, like, the fire they use has got to be not real fire because then she starts, like, eating it. So she's also maybe a fire eater.

[03:08] Portia Pendleton: Okay.

[03:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I just thought it was really fascinating because she's, like, in this awesome outfit, a little sensual for Legoland, the theme park and doing these moves that are not, like, seductive per se, but sensual with fire. It was just really interesting to see all these children watching this. And what I loved is the music she picked first, obviously. Miley Cyrus partying in the USA. Getting her fire going. Sometimes the flames would go out because it was a little windy and she had, like, all sorts of different fire sticks. And then do you know this song that's like the grand finale song. It was like, Partying USA. Yeah. She's, like, dancing around with her little fire sticks, and then she transitions to the fans. It's like a fire fan. And she lights each one slowly and kind of seductively to that song that's like, light them up, light them up, light them up. And it was just like, wonderful. I don't know, it was just really interesting.

[04:08] Portia Pendleton: That's making me think of the yes.

[04:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: The hula dancing in white Lotus. I know. And I was just like it didn't feel like cultural appropriation, I guess, in this case. Although in White Lotus it kind of does, right? So I don't know. It was just really interesting having a fire dancer at a child's theme park. Kind of very sensual, really. Like maybe pushing the line, but not quite. And then I just kept worrying her hair was going to catch on fire. My children would see this awful, traumatic thing. And then she ended by eating the fire. And then my son was like, does she **** fire? And I was like, great question, great question, great question. Right? And then I was like, does her esophagus get burned? What are the ins and outs of being a fire dancer? What are the hazards of the trade?

[05:00] Portia Pendleton: There's got to be I mean, there's a risk of being burned, right?

[05:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Is it like, just real fire or is it some sort of special fire for fire dancers that's safe to consume?

[05:12] Portia Pendleton: I have no idea.

[05:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: No idea. So if anyone knows, DM us and let us know.

[05:16] Portia Pendleton: Fire.

[05:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Speaking of things that are hot, white Lotus, super hot show.

[05:23] Portia Pendleton: Jennifer coolidge.

[05:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Super hot. Like, at all stages of life, she is the queen. So, yeah. Where do you want to start?

[05:31] Portia Pendleton: I think we have to start with Tanya. I mean, all weekend, it's just so relevant. I kept wanting to do the on.

[05:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: A hot dog real bad. Yeah. Which I think is from legally blood. Yes. But we'll cover that next time. Gosh. Jennifer coolidge.

[05:52] Portia Pendleton: So we see her making her way to the White Lotus resort by herself, and then we learn that she has her mother's ashes in tow. Seems like it was a recent death from how she's acting appropriately during grief. It's coming in and out. Sometimes she's fine, other times she's really upset and her idea is to kind of leave some of the ashes in the water off the coast of Hawaii.

[06:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Which sounds beautiful. And I feel like people do that. People do that. But we see her sort of disembark that little tiny boat that's coming to the white Lotus with all the employees just waving and smiling. I loved how this series ended with them doing that again, except now we know more of the backstory and that made me really sad to see they're all there fake smiles, and she's just kind of a mess from the jump.

[06:46] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. We see her pretty quickly at the spa right down there. And she really wants an appointment.

[06:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: They don't have any. She's kind of freaking out, kind of pushy. And then Belinda, the lovely spa manager, or maybe just employee, makes room for her. Right. So right away we see some boundary pushing and crossing with Tanya McQuad and Belinda, which we just see continue.

[07:14] Portia Pendleton: So it kind of starts their relationship. Right. I mean, again, I'm using relationship with air quotes right now because relationships are really two ways.

[07:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. But I think, as we see with Tanya, this is a one way relationship. And I think that's a theme we see carried through for a lot of these different characters.

[07:32] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So Belinda provides a service to Tanya that Tanya believes is like, life changing. And she's healed now immediately. And she wants to spend as much time as possible with Belinda, who is doing her job and becomes pretty pushy and almost so manipulative. It doesn't get sooner right off the bat with the money right. And her opening a spot together that comes a little later, like midway through the season. But you can just see Tanya's needs very needy, trying to kind of do whatever she wants, crossing inappropriate employee guest boundaries. You can see Belinda feels uncomfortable but.

[08:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Goes along with it.

[08:15] Portia Pendleton: A really high end place where I'm like, I feel like this probably in some ways is a norm. Like, you go above and beyond for a guest.

[08:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's probably a lot of entitlement, which I think we see maybe especially with Shane kind of with all of them, though, there's a huge sense of entitlement. And we see Belinda sort of bend over backwards to make room for Tanya right at the start. And then Tanya idealizes her right away. Belinda is the be all and end all. The greatest thing that ever happened to her. She wants to shout it from the rooftops. And how did you feel, Portia, watching that? Did you start to get icky feelings or nervous feelings?

[08:55] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, I was very uncomfortable with her immediately making room for her at the spa.

[09:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Me, too.

[09:02] Portia Pendleton: Again, I mean, the show I'm like, okay, this is clearly intentional. And I think it was hard, just as a side note, to separate Tanya from Jennifer Coolidge, because I love Jennifer Coolidge so much.

[09:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't like that for real.

[09:16] Portia Pendleton: Tanya, you do you but, yeah, Tanya definitely made me feel like icky.

[09:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you think that's because we're in mental health and so we're picking up on the splitting and the idealization and we know the devaluation will come, do you think the average person without that point of view would necessarily pick that up right away?

[09:35] Portia Pendleton: Not in the same way. They might be turned off by her. Just from, like, entitlement.

[09:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And, like, the pushiness right.

[09:42] Portia Pendleton: Versus, like, maybe the why or, like, you know, it being idealization and then waiting, like you said, for their to come devaluation, which sucks. And and Belinda was very, like, devastated at the end.

[09:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I think, you know, they talk.

[09:56] Portia Pendleton: About which we'll get into more, but borderline personality disorder. Tanya feels a little borderline to me.

[10:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right as I was watching it, I got really nervous for Belinda because I just already was getting that borderline personality disorder flavor from Tanya. And that quick idealization is like a telltale sign. Even if you don't meet full criteria for a Bpd, which is the acronym for borderline personality disorder, often that quick idealization, I think we learned pretty early in our training, like, when you have a new patient who's just like, oh, my gosh, no psychiatrist has ever helped me in the way you're helping me. You're the better, amazing. Can I pay you more? Can I write you a good review? Blah, blah, blah. You learn to think, oh, there's something up here. Right.

[10:43] Portia Pendleton: And it's hard because sometimes I think people's traits are more what do I want to say? Like, hidden, where it's like you might always see the positive side. You might be always idealized by someone for years yes. And have no idea. And all of a sudden, there's like, a switch flip, as, again, happens throughout the six episodes that we see with Belinda and Tanya. But sometimes we have no idea, and other times it's so big, it's like fast friends and people can be fast friends, but sometimes fast friends is really.

[11:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like some love bomb a little. Yeah, exactly.

[11:19] Portia Pendleton: Personality disorder.

[11:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you're so right. It really depends on what side of the split you're on. So, again, people with Bpd traits or borderline personality disorder, much like we see here with Tanya, really see things in a black or white way, and they feel things that way. That's sort of their thoughts. We've talked about that in prior episodes, so you're either all good or all bad. It's hard for them to sort of see you as a mix of both, and that reflects their inability to see themselves as a mix of both. So if you're on the good side of the split, like you said for years, you can be like that, and then something might happen, like a late fee or a perceived insensitivity to something they're saying. Or it could be something big, it could be something small. Then you're very quickly devalued and on the bad side of the split. And that sucks. That feels real bad. Sometimes you're on the bad side of the split right away and you know it. And that's why it's very helpful to treat patients with these traits as a team. So then all team members can kind of support each other and also see sort of the clinical pathology and a fuller view. But we see that right away with Tanya idealizing Belinda. And I was just waiting for her to meet a man and drop Belinda as quick as possible. And unfortunately, we see that happen.

[12:36] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And I think, too, I was curious.

[12:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of who?

[12:40] Portia Pendleton: Jennifer Kuf. Tanya. Tanya.

[12:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Tanya.

[12:43] Portia Pendleton: Tanya would also interact with, like, of the other guests.

[12:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[12:48] Portia Pendleton: And then, you know, that's a great point. Her her lover Greg kind of came out of nowhere. You know, he wasn't like, one of the main cast members. So I think that was just, like, interesting.

[12:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: But her and Wise writing right. That it wasn't like someone she met on the ship or it wasn't anyone she'd even formed a minimal connection with. It was like, accidental by chance. Really quick, hot and heavy. That's how it goes.

[13:10] Portia Pendleton: Very intense. So intense emotions are, again, pretty common with a lot of personality disorders, but specifically with Bpd. And also just thinking about what we learn from Tanya's past, she alludes to her mother having Bpd. Yes, there are some genetic markers of Bpd, but also it's just really hard. Again, with attachment. Yes, there's a lot of attachment trauma in patients who have borderline personality disorder.

[13:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And so right. So if Tanya, when they're on the little boat, she's supposed to spread the ashes and they're with Shane and Rachel. I love that so much. And she's, like, kind of given a eulogy of sorts and talking about her deceased mom, I was like, all of this tracks again, a plus. Writing like this track, this sort of upbringing would potentially lead to someone displaying behaviors and traits that Tanya is. So her mom, who was obsessed with men, and it sounds like, would often prioritize her romantic relationships over her relationship with Tanya. And then we see that play out when she meets Greg and she even says, like, you said that her mom has Bpd. And you do sort of learn how to behave as an adult from your early attachment figures and what's modeled for you. So why wouldn't she display some of these traits? I would imagine that her mom would have been a bigger personality disorder, and Tanya still has those traits, and we see them, but maybe I'm imagining her mom would have been even more big.

[14:41] Portia Pendleton: I feel like, also maybe more cruel. Yeah. Tanya, I think it's almost like, has the lacking self awareness, and it's really, like, self centered. It's like only her needs are the most important. I also don't think that that's intentional. I think she's just, like, moving through.

[14:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Life, like, trying not malicious. Right? Yeah, I totally agree. It doesn't feel like logan. Roy.

[15:01] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[15:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I wonder if her mom did or if her mom was like the mom from succession. That's a great point, Portia. And again, what you just brought up I thought was really interesting. Like, which of the other guests did she interact with? Now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like it was the ones who were younger than her. It wasn't like the Moss Bach or family parents.

[15:18] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[15:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: It wasn't really Armand, except to get Belinda. Belinda. It was like Belinda was the only adult she interacted with to get her needs met. There was also a racial difference, which I thought was important and interesting, and.

[15:32] Portia Pendleton: A socioeconomic difference huge.

[15:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, I feel like Tanya ends up connecting herself to people who use her while she's using them. So her relationships are very transactional. Right. And I just think that makes a lot of sense. Even if she's not maliciously using people unconsciously, she is, but then she's also picking people who are like belinda was kind of doing that with her, too, right. Like, she was like, oh, maybe I could get my own spot and finally living out that dream. Yeah, it was really interesting.

[16:07] Portia Pendleton: And then Tanya interacts with Olivia and Paula, just, like, commenting on their appearance and their skin.

[16:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[16:14] Portia Pendleton: So it's so porcelain. She's, like, trying to feel their faces, and they're like this ladies.

[16:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And they're, like, young and beautiful and yeah. Again, just interesting people to try to attach to. It makes me wonder what psychological age Tanya is. Yes. We often think of chronological age as being different from your psychological age. And sometimes I feel like I hear this in society and in the media of child stars, you kind of get stuck at the age you became famous, and I think that might be related to the trauma of fame. And I feel like we do see that. Right? Do you see that? That people seem sort of psychologically stuck at the age of trauma occurred or something like that?

[16:56] Portia Pendleton: No, definitely. And I think, too, in Tanya's character, it feels way more, I don't know, intense where she's stuck, like, in childhood versus maybe some other patients I can think off the top of my head that I've interacted who have Bpd, where she just even, like her temper tantrums.

[17:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[17:16] Portia Pendleton: It's like she's so good at playing being a child when she's seeking reassurance so frequently, she's, like, following Greg around, literally hiding. I was like, I mean, it's comical because of the show, but it's like she is acting like a child.

[17:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. Like a five year old, maybe. Yeah, 100%. And even with Greg, like, when she was finally like, I'm going to peel.

[17:36] Portia Pendleton: Back all the layers of the onion.

[17:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: And really let him see it. And she did. She let it all out. And I felt like that was a great depiction of the sort of core fear of patients with Bpd, of abandonment and loss and attachment. This sort of I hate you, but don't leave me. Like, I'm going to leave you first because it would hurt too much if you left me, but don't leave me.

[17:58] Portia Pendleton: Or I'm going to give you an excuse to leave.

[18:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[18:00] Portia Pendleton: By acting. Right? I'm acting in this huge way. I'm pushing you away intentionally. So then I have a reason. Okay. I know why.

[18:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Or sort of like a test. Right. And Greg stayed. And I think she interprets that as like true love. I think he just wanted to have sex.

[18:16] Portia Pendleton: I think he just wanted to have sex. I'm not sure if he saw it going anywhere further than that night. But then I'm thinking and I have not watched season two, so I'm saying this kind of blind, but I also think that based on what he had done for a living, which is not being an activist for Black Lives Matter.

[18:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I loved that. Hilarious.

[18:36] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, it was so funny.

[18:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Belinda. He's with the BLM. And then Belinda's like, okay.

[18:42] Portia Pendleton: Because in her face while he's telling her that, she's just like, oh, how'd.

[18:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: She get into that? I love that whole dinner conversation. We're just like, how'd she get into activism? And he's like, what? Yeah.

[18:53] Portia Pendleton: So he's in, like, wildlife, it seems, management, fisheries, something like that. In Colorado, in the west. Because then she's like, oh, well, when I'm in Aspen, let's meet up. And I think then for him, he's seeing, in my opinion, this opportunity to be with someone who seems a little damaged to him. He now then maybe can take advantage.

[19:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of for her money. Right. In hearing that, he was like, this got money. There's something up here. I was really worried about Greg and all his coughing fits. Yeah. And I'm like, do you have COPD? Do you have a lung tumor? Why are you coughing? Do you have asthma? What is going on?

[19:29] Portia Pendleton: I forgot about that.

[19:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: I kept being really nervous he was going to drop down, like, while they were having sex or soon after or.

[19:35] Portia Pendleton: Right after they were connecting. Right. And then another person leaving her in the ultimate way.

[19:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I was really worried about that happening. So I wonder if the writers were always, like, teasing us with that or if that might come later. I don't really know. But again, she quickly attaches herself to Greg, who doesn't feel like a secure, healthy attachment figure. And again, it's like, I can't really put my finger on why I'm just getting a vibe. He's not it.

[20:04] Portia Pendleton: He doesn't seem safe for her.

[20:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But she is immediately attracted to him, like a magnet. And I think for me, watching this whole series that was like the thing that kept crossing my mind is like, why are these characters attracted to who they're attracted to when it's so clear that these are kind of like unhealthy relationship dynamics, but they don't leave. And I think we really see that with Shane and Rachel.

[20:26] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So yeah, I mean, with Rachel and Shane Patton, I feel like I have a hot take with that. I don't like Rachel and I prefer Shane.

[20:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: What?

[20:40] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I know.

[20:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, your team Shane? Yeah. I don't think anyone's team Shane.

[20:46] Portia Pendleton: I know, and I don't know what that says about me, but that's okay. So I just think that Rachel needs to get her stuff together and it bothers me. And maybe this is something I can talk about in supervision or therapy, why it bothers me so much, but I'm just like, come on, girl. Shane is not hiding himself that well.

[21:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's true.

[21:07] Portia Pendleton: This sociopathic, malignant narcissist, he's a **** up, rich, spoiled brat boy who married her because she's beautiful and has a lot of money. And it's just like now all of a sudden she's like seeing it and I'm just like really?

[21:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I don't think it was hidden before, although I guess sometimes I have heard of some relationships and again, I don't think this is uncommon, where you think you're marrying one person and then it's like the mask falls off. So maybe that happened, but Shane doesn't seem smart right, for that to have been the case.

[21:38] Portia Pendleton: And he seems like he has zero.

[21:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like a frat boy, like he's wearing his, what, like Cornell hat or something, which I'm sure he got in by having a legacy generational tie. Yeah, I don't think he doesn't strike me as the kind of narcissist to be smart enough to hide that very well. It's really out there again, he's like living his authentic self. I guess. So maybe it sounds like maybe that's why you're annoyed with her.

[22:04] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I don't know. And then you told me about his mom.

[22:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love Molly Shannon so much and everything. And then when she showed up, right, like he'd called her over and over and over, being so annoyed. Get the pineapple sweet.

[22:20] Portia Pendleton: Even though they got like this other.

[22:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Beautiful sweet, and just like a child having a temper tantrum, going to mommy, then she shows up. Can you imagine if your mother in law showed up on your honeymoon?

[22:32] Portia Pendleton: I can't think of how that would ever be okay.

[22:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know what I mean?

[22:37] Portia Pendleton: And he's just like, mom, her face is just like, this is not happening.

[22:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[22:42] Portia Pendleton: Is this real? Is this a mirage from being in Hawai or in the sun?

[22:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: All the pina coladas? Yeah. And then it's just like you get the sense that Shane and his mom Kitty are enmeshed and then you really see just how enmeshed they are. Yes. And she's like, well, I'm going to this other place with my best friend from all time, but I thought I'd stop here first. I hope that's okay. And you can see Rachel's just like, I have to say it's okay, but it's really not.

[23:06] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, and her face is so obvious, too, which maybe she is, but again, you're not even trying to hide your disdain, which I get. Again, that's like super appropriate, but within their context. Again, that's why I'm like, come on, how did you not see this?

[23:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but maybe it's like, now she's really seeing it. Maybe there was some shred of suppression or denial that was keeping her in the relationship with Shane. Again, with this series, I'm so curious about why do they stay connected to these people? And it's like, I think Shane was connected to her for her beauty. That's her power. And then she, I think, is connected to him because of his money and the privilege and the access. And she says that bopping around New York City was really fun, and now she's realizing there's like a price to pay for that privilege. It's like golden handcuffs and Kitty's part of the deal. And I also thought that the actresses portrayed that mother in law, daughter in law competition so well, more so from Kitty's perspective, you could tell that the fact that she was beautiful really bothered her. Right. That now she's not the number one woman in his life.

[24:13] Portia Pendleton: I want to know if there's a dad.

[24:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Divorced, if he's alive, or if.

[24:20] Portia Pendleton: She had always the money.

[24:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: So she said she had family money. I remember she was telling Rachel that that's why, like, if she and her husband ever split up, she'd be okay because she did have family money to fall back on. Sort of like bragging, because she knows Rachel doesn't. But then it sounds like whoever the dad is had more money. Yeah, I don't know. Actually, that's really interesting that there was no mention of him at all, especially.

[24:41] Portia Pendleton: With just like mother son dynamic. Then. Is that why they're so enmeshed? Would they have been less if there was like a third family member? He seems again, I don't think there's other kids. He seems like an only child, or.

[24:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: At least they don't talk about him if there are.

[24:55] Portia Pendleton: I mean, that too can just happen to a parent child. It's a different type of relationship than if you have two parents or siblings.

[25:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or things like that. Yeah, that's actually a really interesting point. But they were so funny, though, when Kitty and Shane and Rachel are all at that dinner and Rachel is already having an identity cris, and now here's her mother in law, who's like I think she's like, oh, God, this is what I'm going to be, or what Shane wants me to be. And I don't know if that's who I want to be. And they're all like, why don't you want to be this? This is great. And they're doing like that money, money dance while the Hula people are hooling in the background. It was so sickening. And you could see on rachel's face. She's like, oh, my God, you guys are doing this in public. But that's who they are, right? And they're also not hiding it like any shred, right? Any shred.

[25:42] Portia Pendleton: So that juxtaposition. Juxtaposition. After we talk to and meet Kai and knowing that the land was taken and that a lot of them work there and that his family is mad because he works there, because some people don't and protest so and so forth, we have that whole storyline kind of going off to the side. And then the patent family are just like, money, money. Watching the people who live there, that it's a part of their culture and meaningful, this performance that they're just like singing to. Money.

[26:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Yeah. Again. Beautiful Juxtaposition. Beautiful writing. Definitely makes you feel icky.

[26:16] Portia Pendleton: But yeah, I mean, Shane is not lovable, right? Like, he flirts with underage girls in front of Rachel, literally on their honeymoon. Like, that's gross.

[26:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's gross. And such a power move. I can't remember now if she was already sort of expressing some hesitations or some unhappiness on the honeymoon, if he was sort of like showing her like, whatever, I'll be fine, kind of thing, or if he didn't know, if he really couldn't comprehend why she'd be hurt by that.

[26:42] Portia Pendleton: Right. It was weird. And then when she's telling him, I mean, again, I don't know if anyone else felt this way or if I was the only one in the world watching, but I felt sorry for him. He had no idea from this point because he has zero self awareness. He had not a clue, which is, again, like, shocking because it's so obvious, right.

[27:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: He wasn't picking up any and so.

[27:05] Portia Pendleton: When she's telling him, basically, I don't like you, and I just I think.

[27:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: I made a mistake. Yeah, like, he's sad because, like, again.

[27:11] Portia Pendleton: Like, duh, you are going to be sad. And he's just like, Why? What do you mean? And it's funny. I mean, it's comedy not but his just whole and then he's being gaslit by Armand because he's right. Like, they did book that room. Armand is kind of messing with him.

[27:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's true.

[27:27] Portia Pendleton: He gets a free boat ride. It was Jennifer Tanya. It was Tanya paid for it. That's why he said it was free. It was not free.

[27:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[27:34] Portia Pendleton: And then he knew that she was having this, like, a moment.

[27:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, he did that on purpose to get back. Exactly. Driving him nuts.

[27:40] Portia Pendleton: Exactly.

[27:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: But again, you're right. Like, Shane was correct. They didn't get the correct room. They did pay for it. They should at least get, like, the refund. But the fact that Shane is, like, so checking over and over, it's so annoying to me. And entitled and like, dude, just enjoy your honeymoon.

[27:57] Portia Pendleton: But he can't.

[27:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: He can't if he doesn't get what he feels like he deserves. I mean, it's like the perfect depiction of entitlement. And then that just dynamic between. Armand and Shane just keeps continuing. And they keep shane, I feel like, just keeps up in the ante. Up in the ante, up in the ant. Like, he just won't let it go. And he's just really getting under Armand's skin. And you imagine Armand's probably worked there for a long time. He's what, five or six years sober until he falls off the wagon because he finds the bag with all the.

[28:28] Portia Pendleton: Drugs in it after Shane.

[28:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's just Shane pushing and pushing and pushing it.

[28:33] Portia Pendleton: But Shane is a trigger.

[28:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And I would imagine he has dealt with Shane day in and day out, like for years. And he just can't take it anymore. The last Shane, the last straw. And it literally is the last Shane. Because unfortunately, Armod dies at the beginning.

[28:49] Portia Pendleton: Do you see that coming?

[28:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, obviously we knew someone died because it opens with I thought it.

[28:55] Portia Pendleton: Was Rachel because of Shane in the airport was like, no, I'm alone. I was like, It's Rachel.

[29:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I was worried she maybe committed suicide or something. I didn't see it coming until the final scene where he's like pooping in.

[29:08] Portia Pendleton: Suitcase after the dinner service.

[29:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[29:11] Portia Pendleton: He's like, he's so manic from drugs and doing cocaine all night.

[29:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's my favorite line of the whole show when he comes back. And he's like, that was the best ******* dinner seating of all time.

[29:22] Portia Pendleton: They're like, yeah, the orchestra was playing while he's managing it.

[29:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, it was just you were really feeling it. Like, you're really in Armand's mind. But again, for Shane to get him fired, right? To just really go that far is why I don't like it.

[29:39] Portia Pendleton: Like, you're ruining people's livelihoods.

[29:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Their livelihoods. Like, okay, they made a mistake. Like, let it go. My God. He can't. But I mean, to just keep really and he doesn't care that someone's going to get fired. He doesn't care that Rachel's like a shell of a human. Maybe Rachel hadn't seen it to that degree.

[29:58] Portia Pendleton: I would have to assume.

[30:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: We got to give her the benefit of that, right? Oh, my god. And then when Armand is pooping in.

[30:05] Portia Pendleton: The luggage, I laughed out loud watching that scene.

[30:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, oh, my god.

[30:11] Portia Pendleton: My husband hadn't seen it at all. And I was like, come look at this. He's like, this is weird. And I was like, It's Armand.

[30:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's pooping in this because he just can't take it anymore.

[30:21] Portia Pendleton: He didn't like wipe. He just pulled his pants up.

[30:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. That's gross. Yeah. I mean, I think he was high, so I don't think he really knew he was doing what's he going to wipe with the shirt. He should have wiped with the shirt. Oh, God.

[30:38] Portia Pendleton: That would have been like the nail in the coffin just smearing your feces all over.

[30:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And what a primitive form of payback. Which, again, all of these characters and their personality traits are so primitive. And they're all having temper tantrums in their own way, even Armand. But I have so much sympathy for Armand because I feel like they just pushed him to a break, literally. You're going to get fired for this. It just makes me sick.

[31:05] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[31:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Armand is like I loved him.

[31:08] Portia Pendleton: I loved when he was, like, lying about finding the bag, like over and over again. We'll have to keep looking. We haven't seen it.

[31:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: So Armand does lie? Yeah, from the jump. He lies and can't admit wrongdoing. But then I'm like, maybe he's like, coached to do that. Maybe they're not supposed to admit fault because then they could get sued or like, who knows what. I don't know.

[31:29] Portia Pendleton: I don't know.

[31:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I just feel like that stuff happens.

[31:30] Portia Pendleton: All the time, though. A reservation gets missed and then it's like then if you're at a nice place, they should then take care of you. If you're paying thousands and thousands of dollars, it's like then they should have been like, yeah, you're right. We'll comp a night for the inconvenience. Or yes, of course we'll give you the difference. Give them a difference, that's all.

[31:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think I think they said they would. It just didn't clear right away. But that doesn't usually clear right away. Right.

[31:54] Portia Pendleton: It's just like when you go to.

[31:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Any hotel and there's like a security charge, it takes a couple of days to come off. Right. Interestingly, though, like, the Mossbacher family does get comped. Yes.

[32:02] Portia Pendleton: Well, I would hope so.

[32:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's a little more than a room mix up.

[32:07] Portia Pendleton: I guess.

[32:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: It'S.

[32:15] Portia Pendleton: So we have Nicole and what's, her husband Mark, and then Olivia and Quinn, and then Paula is the friend. So what do you think of initially Olivia and Paula?

[32:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. I just loved how woke they were, especially compared to their parents. It was just so humorous. I just felt like it was such a perfect depiction of the current generation versus the former generation and the tensions there. Totally accurate, given the political, social, cultural climate we're in. And I just loved love in terms of hated, but found humorous. Nicole's huge sympathy for the white man. Yeah, right. And I'm just like, oh, God.

[33:00] Portia Pendleton: And and I love it so interesting because she's this powerful, like, business CEO and it seems like Mark is like, you know, almost like a stay at home dad. So it's interesting that within that nontypical.

[33:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Role, she is so sympathetic, but she has a white male son and I don't know, I just feel like she is just such a perfect character. Right. Like you would think as a female CEO and I'm assuming a male dominated industry, because we all are, you'd think she would be like this feminist icon.

[33:31] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[33:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, I feel like this is maybe what Rachel's article was saying. Like, well, she's not really she kind of rolled the wave of me too to get to where she was.

[33:41] Portia Pendleton: Maybe that was what it was about.

[33:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe that's true, but she's not really a feminist icon, and I find that interesting. Like, is she insecure in her own power? I don't know. I don't know what to make of it. But I loved when they were at dinner and Olivia was like, mom, good news. I looked and I checked. All the white men are doing just fine. That was funny.

[34:01] Portia Pendleton: I didn't really like Olivia and Paula. Just like, they were mean girls. I mean, besides their woke nature. And Olivia's felt really just hark toward her parents.

[34:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And I think sorry to interrupt you, but I did think the mom and dad were pointing out something accurate. Like, you are so mad at us, but our privilege gives you life, and you're just, like, so unappreciative.

[34:22] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, no. And I think, too, olivia and Paula's relationship felt, like, gross to me right off the get go. And just, like, they weren't really telling each other things. Olivia seemed really suspicious of Paula, and then Paula was really also suspicious of Olivia with knowing about Kai. Like, lying, hiding. No, I didn't go out. And Olivia literally she didn't say, though, I followed you. She kept a lot of that secret. I also was very upset with how they treated Quinn.

[34:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[34:50] Portia Pendleton: Like, really, really mean.

[34:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he was a dog here. Yeah, like, really mean.

[34:53] Portia Pendleton: Sleep in the closet, constant putting him down. He felt a little like he could have been on the spectrum. I could have a little bit of some traits. In other ways, he seemed, like, pretty typical. But some things that Olivia had pointed.

[35:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Out, I was like.

[35:08] Portia Pendleton: And then that made me even more mad that she was treating him like that.

[35:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I could see that. Maybe what we used to call asperger's or something. I think with Olivia and Paula, at first, I thought they were good friends. Like, oh, they met in college. And I did think it was interesting that Paula was a woman of color on this trip and just really curious what's her take on all of this? I don't know how they got all those drugs there. Did they buy them there? Did they smuggle them somehow?

[35:40] Portia Pendleton: Some were not prescribed. Like, a lot of them were prescription.

[35:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Based, but not like the ketamine was the pipe. I loved, though, when someone pulled out, like, how they just kept being like, oh, I forgot. I have this drug. Oh, wait, I have this drug. Oh, my God, I forgot to have my pipe.

[35:55] Portia Pendleton: And you can't fly commercially with that. And they did.

[35:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe they didn't, though.

[35:58] Portia Pendleton: That's a good point. They got, like, on a commercial flight leaving. So, I mean, I'm making an assumption that maybe they did. Maybe they took a PJ down, but we're flying commercial on the way back.

[36:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: But try and save some money.

[36:10] Portia Pendleton: I think Paula, initially you like her because she is kind of calling people out but then I think she really kind of chooses her privilege with Kai. She does not call him when they're going back to the room, and that's, like, a big question of why. I was listening to the HBO podcast covering white Lotus, and they talked about that a lot. Like, she had her phone with her.

[36:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she had Kai's number, and she.

[36:34] Portia Pendleton: Did not contact him. She just looked scared. And then she put her the necklace that he gave her, she threw into the water, and it was just like, what are you doing?

[36:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Oh, I didn't make that connection about, like, she could have called him to warn him or say, like, get out.

[36:48] Portia Pendleton: That was all her idea.

[36:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And he really didn't want to do it, but then pushed it. And again, I think it's because, again, I feel like Olivia and Paula is another transactional relationship. I feel like Olivia uses Paula to be like, see, look, I'm woke. I have friends of color, blah, blah, blah, but not really. Right? And then we learned that I think maybe Paula's with Olivia to go on the trip. Maybe she probably went for free. I don't really know what else they're attracted to each other with in terms of their friendship, because then we learned that Olivia stole Paula's boyfriend. Right. So it's like, why do you see friends with her? Right? Like, why? And then I think that's why Paula didn't tell her about Kai, because she was worried it happened again, rightfully so. And we see that it kind of does start to happen again. And then I think Paula gets so ****** that she concocts this whole plan.

[37:41] Portia Pendleton: Which, again, is not okay. I mean, not okay. Like, it's huge risk.

[37:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Kai even says he's like, the mothbacher family didn't take our land like white people did, but they didn't. So this is just, like, stealing and stuff. But then she does kind of get in his head. And is that manipulative or, like, a vulnerable person?

[38:00] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, it is manipulative, because Paula is then leaving, right? And he stayed. She's like, no, I'm going back.

[38:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have college to get to. I have a life to get to. This is just like, a little fling. But then, yeah, she's using Kai to get back at this family who, again, has taken her on this trip. They're very problematic in their own ways. Like, not to give them a pass, but it hurts everyone. I do think we see remorse. Like, she seems genuinely remorseful and sad.

[38:26] Portia Pendleton: But then I don't know if this I'm sure everything is intentional, always, because they're good writers, but on the last boat trip that they all take, paula is, like, sea sick, and she's just, like, vomiting. And Olivia's just looking at her because she knows what happened. She knows that she did that, and she's just like, oh, yeah, maybe she should have a soda. They are not at that point, interacting really at all. Olivia is realigning with her family, which again in the show seems good, right?

[38:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: That she's finally hugging her mom and reconnecting and things like that. She's maybe seeing her parents as some good and some bad. Not all good or all bad. I did think it was hilarious when Nicole was like coaching Olivia on how to hold her friend's hair back while she's vomiting. As if Olivia doesn't know how to be there for a friend. She's like, pull that piece up, pull that piece up. Paula, I'm going to get you a ginger rail, honey. And I loved how every time Paula needs Tylenol because she's allergic to ibuprofen, paula has this allergy. Paula is just paula's, like she needs.

[39:31] Portia Pendleton: Her out of van.

[39:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. She's just so high maintenance, this Paula friend. It's just so ridiculous in an over the top way.

[39:37] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, they're such a funny family. And we see Quinn stay in Hawai.

[39:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like really happy for him. I don't know. How did you feel about that? We ran back.

[39:45] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, like the show wise, I feel like it's great for him. It makes me think of this interesting little fun fact. So Hawai actually does have a problem with young people, like young runaway land going there and then becoming homeless. Do you know what woofing is?

[40:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: No.

[40:03] Portia Pendleton: It's like work on farm. I think there's another word in there, but a lot of college kids and people do it. So you get free room and board, typically food as well. And you can work at a farm, like for the summer, for like a.

[40:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Marijuana farm or any farm.

[40:16] Portia Pendleton: Any farm.

[40:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay. I said marijuana because I've heard of something like this in Hawai, specifically on a marijuana farm. So I didn't know if it was specific to that or like any farm.

[40:24] Portia Pendleton: So the person that I know went to Maui through a wolfing program was not marijuana farm, it's just like a regular farm. But they asked this person, made sure that they were returning to college. They had all these stipulations because so many people go down there to wolf and then don't leave and then become like homeless. And then there's limited resources. There's limited resources. I thought that was just interesting.

[40:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: That is interesting. I think they go and fetch him. This isn't a home alone situation. I think they have the means and they will go find life there.

[40:55] Portia Pendleton: I know. You go row that boat or canoe.

[40:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: I loved Quinn in the technology, right, where they're like he's like freaking out because they lost all the technology. And then finally he's like, wow, the ocean is really beautiful.

[41:08] Portia Pendleton: He's out there. Yes, he's sleeping. And then that group of men who are doing the paddle, like the rowing around the island really take to him and are really kind, which he seems to not be getting from his family.

[41:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, you can see why he felt wanted and needed and included and that seemed really important to him. But I guess he's only 16, so I can see why his parents wouldn't want him to stay.

[41:33] Portia Pendleton: It makes a lot of sense. And then Mark so we see Mark be, I think, just like inappropriate a lot.

[41:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, talk about boundaries or lactose too.

[41:43] Portia Pendleton: Much with Quinn, with everyone talking about.

[41:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: His swollen testicles, you could just leave it at like, I got a medical.

[41:48] Portia Pendleton: Issue, finds out about his father, who's.

[41:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: A really big reaction to it.

[41:52] Portia Pendleton: He's questioning his life. He seems like in a little bit of a midlife crisis based on all those things he finds out about his dad. And then he also finds out that he does not have cancer. He's just like, cancer scare.

[42:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's a lot going on. And then he's like I can see, though, how learning that about his dad makes him feel like, did I really know you? And then he wants his son to really know him, albeit in an inappropriate way. And I felt like that conversation between him and Nicole was really well written and that she was like, you didn't think about how this would affect me now. I was originally hurt by your actions and now you're hurting me again because you're telling her children I didn't want them to know. And now I'm going to have to explain why I stayed. Why did I stay for these $75,000 bracelets? Yeah, it was really interesting. I loved when Mark was just getting drunker and drunker and drunker and seeing all the guests and just being ridiculous and then asking Armand what's that like to have sex with a man. And Armand's like, you want to find out? Yeah.

[42:49] Portia Pendleton: And he was like he went too far. I just also couldn't I couldn't take him, like, beating on his chest.

[42:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it was perfect, right? It was just like so just the white man, he's got to beat his chest and feel powerful when his wife is the one carnal with the power in the relationship. But then he gets the power by.

[43:09] Portia Pendleton: Tackling Kai and saving them all.

[43:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And then finally like, oh, now we're happy again.

[43:13] Portia Pendleton: It's just trauma bonds people.

[43:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Trauma bonding. Yeah. So what do you think kept Nicole and Mark together? What do you think attracted them and kept them together? Sort of how we've talked about, like, Tanya and Greg, shane and Rachel. What do you think it was with them?

[43:30] Portia Pendleton: I feel like I want to say that they probably started out pretty even and I'm, again, making this all maybe.

[43:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: They met in college. Yeah.

[43:37] Portia Pendleton: The same kind of power dynamic, I feel like. And this is very stereotypical that he cheated as Nicole probably got more and more and more successful. Successful and maybe, like distant, like working, like gone all the time. Not in my opinion, not a reason to cheat. But I think that's maybe what kind of was the worst part of their relationship. And maybe they chose to stay because of their kids, maybe because it was convenient. Maybe they just chose to kind of have a different kind of partnership moving forward. And then now it seems like after, again, this traumatic event with the stolen goods, they feel more in touch with.

[44:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Each other, like, more connected and more maybe even well, I guess tackling someone is such a masculine, heroic thing to do. And she was so mad at him, and then he came after her, so he didn't just leave her alone in her sorrows. And then he sort of did, quote, unquote, save her. Right.

[44:35] Portia Pendleton: I don't think Kai was going to hurt her. I think he was just like, please.

[44:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Stay there so I can get out.

[44:40] Portia Pendleton: Of here situation that then got worse. It's not even like he got caught stealing. It's like then there was like, I'm sure it's all word going to get thrown in there.

[44:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I know. He probably went to jail for a long time. He lost his job, went to jail, like this whole thing backfired. You know who didn't get in trouble? Paula. Yeah, probably. Maybe, though. I don't know. And Olivia just kind of like, using it to really get under Paula's skin. Like, well, hopefully there's no text messages. Right?

[45:05] Portia Pendleton: But can you guys just stop being friends? Maybe that would be it's a toxic relationship choice.

[45:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, were any of the relationships we saw healthy? No. Silence. I know.

[45:19] Portia Pendleton: I really don't I don't think so.

[45:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think the last thing I wanted to end on is Belinda, who I loved. But what do you think it is about Belinda where she gets used over and over?

[45:33] Portia Pendleton: I think it's got to be like a mix of environmental so her role, right. Like working even specifically in a spa where you're doing different kind of healing things.

[45:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: And specifically a spa at the White Lotus, like a very bougie, high end place with a specific type of clientele, maybe.

[45:51] Portia Pendleton: So then there's the environment piece. And I think also, maybe she's really just on the simple side, like a really good listener. And a lot of people aren't used to that or a lot of people are. Like, she seems really awesome.

[46:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: She seems very maternal, too.

[46:07] Portia Pendleton: Real. And a lot of yeah. So maybe that's unexpected from for some, especially Tanya. Like, Belinda, even though I think was younger, was still more maternal.

[46:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maternal.

[46:19] Portia Pendleton: Same with Rachel. Rachel kind of went to her. Then Belinda, again, was being really appropriate. Gave her a tissue, asked her if.

[46:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: She was all right, but then gave her cell phone number. So it's always like with Belinda, yes, there's some institutional boundaries right, that are loose because you're catering to this clientele. But then why should give her your cell phone number? Is it because you're worried about her? I think she could really do some work in therapy. As to be holding on to, like, yes, you're worried about her because you're a compassionate human and you're not responsible for her.

[46:53] Portia Pendleton: Maybe there's something in her life with feeling overly responsible, and that's not a diagnosis by any means.

[46:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: But that happens a lot with it does.

[47:01] Portia Pendleton: Patients who are so kind and so giving, they often have the worst boundaries.

[47:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[47:07] Portia Pendleton: And they get used and they don't take care of themselves.

[47:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: They don't prioritize themselves in big ways and then small ways. So I feel like Belinda could really use some good quality therapy, and I.

[47:20] Portia Pendleton: Think she could be in an amazing place.

[47:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[47:24] Portia Pendleton: I think the others could get therapy and make changes. But Belinda seems like right on the.

[47:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Cusp where she just I feel like she has the most potential to me absolutely. Than the others.

[47:32] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. We also didn't I'll just briefly mention we saw the substance use. So Olivia and Paula kind of playing around with that. And then we obviously see Armand. And then I would also take a gander that Tanya seems like she's probably on a Benzo, drinking out kind of out of it.

[47:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, really out of it. Kind of dazed and detached on the cusp of slurring words, but not quite there. Yeah. No. She strikes me as someone who's been on, like, Bendy's a long time and now in her time of grief is freaking out, which happens. Like we've said before, we all regress when you're under stress or grieving or things like that. And I thought the show just did such a good job displaying such interesting interpersonal dynamics and such toxic and unhealthy relationships. Also, at this point in time in our culture, it was the perfect time for it to come out. I felt like it touched on really big cultural themes, political themes, societal themes in such a smart way where I would like to rewatch it in like, 20 years and just see what do I think then.

[48:44] Portia Pendleton: I'm super excited for White Lotus season two.

[48:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. What do you think happens? Well, I know that Tanya stayed and.

[48:52] Portia Pendleton: I know that it's all new characters. I did hear that season one has just, like, the theme of money and privilege. And obviously there's privilege in season two, but season two is more like sex.

[49:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: So we'll have to see.

[49:05] Portia Pendleton: Stay tuned. It will be coming up this next month or this current in a couple of weeks.

[49:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: So after this, we're going to release Legally Blonde, another fun, light hearted episode paying homage to Jennifer Coolidge. Is it homage or Maj? I don't know. I'm not that fancy. And then after that, we'll do White Lotus season two.

[49:24] Portia Pendleton: Awesome.

[49:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: So thank you for listening. Please rate review and subscribe and you can find us at Analyze Scripts on Instagram and Analyze Scripts podcast on TikTok. Thanks.

[49:35] Portia Pendleton: Bye.

[49:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: See you next Monday. Bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are preparing you for our upcoming episodes in February 2024. We are excited for you to watch along with us! 

February 5th - "Saltburn" w/ Dr. Jaime Zuckerman PhD @dr.z_psychologist (Amazon Prime)

February 12th - "The Notebook" (Hulu)

February 19 - "Iron Claw" w/ Dr. Sulman Mirza MD @thekicksshrink (Movie Theatre)

February 26 - "May December" (Netflix)

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are happily joined once again by Dr. Zheala Qayyum, child & adolescent psychiatrist extraordinaire and medical director of Emergency Psychiatry Services at Boston Children's Hospital, to analyze the second "Harry Potter" movie. In this film, we begin meeting some extra special supporting characters like Dobby, Moaning Myrtle, Tom Riddle, and the Malfoy family. In this episode, we explore the themes of tween development and self-identity, specifically as it relates to Harry grappling with the "good" (Gryffindor) and "bad" (Slytherin) parts of himself. We also discuss narcissism as it relates to Gilderoy Lockhart, parental expectations as it relates to the Malfoys, and bullying as it relates to Moaning Myrtle, and classism and racism as they relate to Dobby and mudbloods. We also reflect on one of our favorite Dumbledore quotes - "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” We hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is analyze Scripts, a podcast.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and tv shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM five, and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hi.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Welcome back to another very special episode of analyze scripts, because one of my favorite attendings and teachers from residency, Gila Kayum, is joining us once again to discuss the second Harry Potter movie, Harry Potter in the Chamber of Secrets. If you haven't listened to our last episode with please, you know, go back in your feed a little bit to find our first episode about Harry Potter and the sorcerer's Stone, because we're going to rebuild on that. And just to remind you. So Gila is the attending psychiatrist at Harvard. Basically, she's the medical director of the emergency Psychiatry Service and the director of the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship program. She also remains on staff at Yale University, which is where I met her as my inpatient attending on the child and adolescent unit. So we love her because she's awesome and because she's so good at using fairy tales like Harry Potter to talk about development and themes about child and adolescent psychiatry. So we're just thrilled to have you back.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: No, thank you for having me. And I'm so excited that I get to do something that's dear to my heart and has fascinated me since I was in medical school, so that I'm kind of giving my age away. That's when I read Harry Potter. But to do it with some of my favorite people, so I think there's nothing better.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Awesome. Well, so where do we get started, Portia?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. I mean, they're back for year two, right? So I think the shock to Harry maybe isn't entirely over because there's, like, new monsters and people that he's meeting every year, but the fact that there is magic out there, I guess I would start with him returning home to the Dursleys, which I have never been happy about. I think we learn later kind of why, but now seeing him being so mistreated and kind of brought all back with the trauma, like, here we are. Know, you don't know Dudley is so amazing. Your parents were bad. It's like all these messages kind of return. So I think we should start there.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I do think it's so realistic, though, unfortunately, right, that know Harry finally finds his place in Hogwarts and these people where he feels safe and loved and special. And what's awesome about Harry is the specialness isn't really what he loves, the know, like, seeking that part out. He just likes feeling secure and loved. And now he's to go back for the summer to this abusive environment. And I just think, unfortunately, that does mirror a lot of kids who are growing up in abusive households that you hope they have a place to go where they can see, like, the world won't always be like this, but he does have to go back, and it totally sucks.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's like school, I guess.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, exactly. And I think similarly we see what happens in many abusive relationships, although this was not intentional and Dobby had a role to play in it, is that you get cut off from your supportive relationships, right. That we're going to bolt your window. You're not going to do the things that bring you joy or magic is not allowed. Your friends don't even care about you to write to you. And all those things that he felt like he got in the first year were just suddenly taken away. And he sort of started believing it when he was like, maybe my friends won't come back, or I'm my own.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Why haven't they written to me?

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: A lot of self doubt, a lot of like, he's still growing in confidence, still thinking about what is real and what's not. And I think the other thing, which sort of contrasts is you go to the jerseys and everything is so proper and everything has to be done this way. I will come and greet them. And then I think one of the stark contrasts is we get introduced to the boroughs, which is a whole different world, and it's still a family. And then it gives you a contrast of the sort of the orderliness, the rigidness, the regimentedness at private drive. And then you go to the chaos of boroughs that is full of love and caring, and yet it has room for the unexpected. Each kid is different and accepted for being dragon trainers and whatever else that they're doing. I think we talked a little about this in the last one, where in such a big family, Ron is a little lost that his attachment style we talked about is a little like, anxious. He doesn't know if he'll get looked over in all of this chaos. But there is just so much curiosity. I think that was one thing that is so starkly different between those two households where the adults in boroughs are fostering curiosity and modeling curiosity for their kids. Like, what is this function of this rubber duck? Yeah, we're so fascinated, and yet there is no room for curiosity or thought in private drive.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think different types of torture.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: For a young child.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Totally.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think even in maybe a more stable, non abusive home, we see that, right, in kids who maybe their parents have high expectations for them or want them to turn into x, y or z and don't leave room for the child's unique personality or individuality or interests. That can happen even if you're not being abused or neglected. Right. Like Harry. So I thought that was also just a beautiful addition to the story that I think matching kids watching it, even adults watching it, it'll resonate with them.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's funny and a little like, well, what else is Mr. Dursley supposed to say when Harry has the cake and it looks like he's doing it and then it goes over his client's wife and then he's, you know, that's my nephew.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: He's very disturbed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We didn't want him coming down to non magical people, Muggles. I think sometimes what we don't know is scary or disturbing. But I just thought it was, like, an interesting word choice, disturbed. I guess it fits from a Muggle's perspective of what's going on. And then also just like, they think he's disturbed and they think he's unwell and weird and crazy and bad, too. But I felt bad for Hedwig. We talk usually about people, but being stuck in her little cage, not being allowed to be let out. But, yes, we are introduced to Dobby, and he doesn't seem so great at first, right? He's like all this mischievous stuff. He's this new creature and he's starting to. Right? Like every time he says something not nice about his master or the family he works for, he kind of like self harms, right? So he's like hitting him up on the head with a lamp, banging his hand down. And Harry's like, what are you. Stop. Stop. And I think it's so telling to. Harry's so kind and nurturing, just spirit that we see again through the rest of the movies, especially with Dobby, that he's like, please stop. What are you doing? Please don't do this.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Makes him uncomfortable.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm dying to hear what you think of Dobby, Dr. Q. I think Dobby.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think it evolves more over the next book movies is. I think it's a bigger question of representation of race and otherness in the books because there's not a lot of focus on race per se. And yet there is in the pure bloods and the Muggles. And then there's even the people who sort of are very thoughtful about how Hagrid and the Weasleys support Muggleborn wizards and witches. There is in wizarding families. There's this neglect and oversight of these elves like nonexistent and invisible. And I think we see in the future books, too that there are characters who really take a lot of issue with sort of this thought about pure bloodedness and yet they're perfectly fine with elves working in their homes. So I just think it's interesting that there is even despite a lot of awareness there's sort of blind spot that Hermione picks up on later in the later books about these elves are being mistreated. But then also you see someone being restricted in what they can do and genuinely care about someone and just how their methods are.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, but that's such a great point. And I thought of that too, in rewatching the movie again and perhaps especially now that I'm older and the times we're living in. It was such an interesting commentary on race and identity. That's like the whole plot of this movie, right? That, you know, Salazar Slytherin left this chamber of secrets with the basilisk that's meant to wipe out all the mudbloods, right? It's basically like the goal is genocide here, right? And we start to see what characters are for this, which ones are against it, who is a Mudblood, but even within that, exactly like what you're saying there's this blind spot to the elves and it's almost like, could be a parallel to what we might call these days, like microaggressions. Like, even if you mean well, the stuff you've grown up with could still be deeply rooted and you got to open your eyes to it. And it's a really interesting way to start introducing that concept to little kids or anyone.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I think it's really fascinating in terms of storytelling and fairy tales how this big, sometimes difficult topic is presented.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So well in this movie.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's so clear. And then you see, we see Draco seeing Harry getting all this attention when he. Lockhart. Right. We'll talk about him. Oh, my God. And Draco's so angry that. How dare Harry be getting all this attention, like, I'm a pure blood. I've been taught that I should be. Right. Like on stage with Lockhart. Why aren't then? You know, then he's terrible to the Dursleys. And then you see his dad walk in, you're like, oh, well, this is why. But you see. And good acting, I guess, with Tom Felton, like as a child, but the rage, he's so angry.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, right. And we really get to meet. Or we start to meet the Malfoy family, right? We don't meet the mom yet whose name is Narcissa, which I always think is interesting. But again, Giela, I'm dying to hear what you think about the depiction of the Malfoys in this.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It is, actually, I'm really intrigued by that sort of dynamic because I also think, interestingly, I think given my own south asian background, the whole colonialism and the british aristocracy and this sort of eliteness and classism that comes in and sort of, if that's the norm, how awful not to feel special.

Dr. Katrina Furey: For Draco.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yes, right. If this is part of your identity and this is what you've been brought up with, and then suddenly someone comes and challenges what you know. I think one of the most interesting things I was told about child development was if parents do it right, every little child should have a little bit of narcissism going into school, knowing that they're special and that they're the kings and queens of their own little kingdoms. Then they come to school, and now you have to navigate other kings and queens. And I kind of see that happening a little later. For Draco, we would expect that happening earlier in school age, but now he's sort of met someone who can actually, he can find threatening.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And so it sounds like what you're saying, too, is that hopefully, if you have good enough parents, they've instilled that healthy degree of narcissism in you, right, where you are confident, you do feel special, you feel unconditionally loved. And they're not the ones challenging it. Maybe at first, but then hopefully they can help you wrap your head around it and say, like, you are the best to us and there's other people around and their needs matter too. Right? You have to balance that with some empathy, altruism, integrity. And it's when those things are out of balance that I think we start to see personality pathology either way, whether it's more the narcissistic way or it's more of the know avoidant kind of way.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, that's true, because we see it again later in the movie with Hermione and Draco when she's challenging him a. She challenges him academically and know a mudbud, but we also see her directly challenge him about his father buying the team all brooms and like, well, that's how you got on the team. And harry didn't need know, like, how dare you call me out and take my crown off my head? And you're right. Like, someone who I consider lesser. And I think then we see them really kind of throughout the movies, which we will cover go head to head a lot. But I think she really grinds his gears.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That scene was hard to watch, even now. And just, you could tell, like, the word mudblood is like a racial slur. And they were all just really shocked he would even say it. It's one of those things where it's, know, maybe they all kind of sense. He thinks that. But then to be so. Just willing to say it so aggressively and in such a mean way. And then you see Harry not really understand, which, again, what a thoughtful way to introduce that concept, right. For him as a real outsider, not to get it. And now they're having to explain it to him again, really, I think mirrors trying to start to explain hard facts about the reality of the world to small children as they start to see things and ask questions.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think that's actually one of the loveliest things about the Harry Potter movies and books, is that it parallels real life so well. Like, these kind of growing pains and experiences are so normal for kids in schools, and it is developmentally appropriate. Like, kids who have seen racism or racial slurs being modeled in their homes would have no qualms about saying it outside.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think that's kind of where Draco is coming from, is we know that the father put the book in the cauldron, so he's been exposed to these, so it's not different for him. But like you said, for Harry, it's completely unknown. And then just how kids navigate this, like, their groups and their rivalries and their exams and their classes, I think because it's so close to real life, that it really resonates with. It may be a different school, but a. It exists in our world, even if it is magical. But I think the relatability of all the challenges that these kids are seeing and experiencing is just so relatable for kids.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, I agree. Even thinking of just being silly and wanting a letter, I don't think I wanted or thought that I would be in Narnia. Right. You were saying this before, Sheila, or I didn't think that I was going to be in the Lord of the Rings, but I feel like Harry Potter is so different because it is in the real world. Right. And I was like, well, maybe I could get a letter.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I could go to the school. And I think, again, that resonates. And especially watching them grow up, like, we all can reflect back on childhood moments and betrayals in friendships early on and kids being not so nice on the playground. It's like that's all so real. And whether it's playing Quidditch or playing soccer, it's like it's the same feelings.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. And it's interesting. In Harry Potter, I think, Jaylee, you were saying this before we started recording a little bit. Know the world of Hogwarts and magic is existing in parallel to reality or like the Mudblood world. And in this movie, we start to see what happens when these two worlds start to collide. And it's almost like an interesting metaphor maybe, for what it's like for Harry to be going back and forth, or maybe for any of them to go back and forth but know, dangerous it is for other people to start to recognize that there is this magical world. It kind of reminds me of how we talk about aliens. Are they there? Are they not there? And just all that stuff.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You. We'd probably think they were an alien, right? Someone doing magic or seeing a car.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Flying through the sky.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Seven muggles saw that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So they were, I'm assuming, right? Probably like obliviated, which makes me think of our dear friend, which I know. Katrina, you are dying to talk about Lockhart. And his best skill is apparently obliviating all these witches and wizards who he's stolen stories from to make him.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Sheila, please, please share with us your deepest, darkest thoughts about him.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Well, I think when I first see him, the most interesting thing is just how in awe Hermione is and all the girls and the little ones. And when he comes to know, Gildray Lockhart aside, I thought it was just very interesting to see how in this book, you see crushes develop a little. And even for Ron and Hermione, at the end, when she gets unpetrified, she goes, Harry. But there's this awkwardness between Ron and Hermione, which was really adorable.

Dr. Katrina Furey: They just, like, shake hands. They're like, I don't know what to do.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So cute.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: So I just felt like this was very interesting about narcissism that we were thinking about narcissist. But really, Gildoria Lockhart is. Remember, there was one classification somewhere in one of the papers about different types of narcissists, and there was the exhibitionistic narcissist, which was all about, look at me, I'm performing, so I kind of see him that way 100%. But also you see the compensatory narcissism of I'm not good enough. So how can I make myself be more likable, more inflated, more worthwhile? Clearly, he can't even do simple dueling spells.

Dr. Katrina Furey: No, right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, I could have stopped you if I wanted to, but for the purpose of instruction, I chose not to. It's like fun.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But honestly, though, what a classic narcissistic defense, right? That's exactly what someone with these traits or full blown narcissistic personality disorder, that's exactly how they would respond, right? The fact that in the film, he is so handsome and showy, and there's a big crowd, and again, he can only associate with Harry Potter, right? With other fancy, special people. Not Draco, even. He's not special. Know, it's just like so on point. And then when we learn that actually it's all a big farce, actually, he's been stealing other people's ideas and then obliviating their minds, that's like the ultimate gaslighting, right? It's just so perfect. I just loved the depiction of this. As we keep doing this podcast, we keep talking about narcissism so much, and I'm like, why are we seeing this everywhere? But we really are seeing it in so much different types of media. And this was just such a good spot on, I thought, representation of it, and even, like, the common defense mechanisms and the inner wound, it was just perfect.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And the most, I thought cute part was when he gets obliviated himself. He's so nice.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Imagine someone without that narcissism if you take that away from him. He was lovely.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And it's so interesting, right, that it's like children who are taking it away from him, right? Who can finally challenge him. And I think that does maybe even speak to. There's always good inside, I hope maybe.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You see, I think.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I don't want.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To say, like, the good side of narcissism. You see the likable side of narcissism through the whole movie, and you're like, oh, well, it's not that bad. But then when he, all of a sudden, it's like his mask comes off when he is about to obliviate them and take credit. And it's so ugly and different from before, just being showy and almost. And then there it is. There's the calculated kind of manipulative place that, I don't know, expectative side.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's the side that I think people who are in relationships with people with narcissistic traits see that other people on the outside don't see. And I'm sure in all of our work we have worked with children, adolescent adults who are coping with and trying to process the pain of that. Right. Because then it's not just when you're relating to someone like that. They manipulate you to start doubting your own sense of them and sense of reality. Then you start doubting it and then it's like everyone around you unwittingly contributes to that because they don't see the real person. Right. So again, just like beautiful representation of that.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think it also points to the difference between adults and children in this, how they approached it. Because you see Snape, he knew what this guy was about. I mean, he did his way of sort of showing what it was like, but he never confronted him. And then you say McGonagall going and say time has come for you to do what you're best at, right? And then he tries to run away. But none of the adults, even if they know what he's about, confronted him, kind of played along. And I think that is also very relevant to people that you are around who might have narcissism. And people just tend to appease them and work with them because what else are you going to do? And yet they can anything to lose and they were able to call him.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Out and maybe even building on that. That's so fascinating. I think it also speaks to the danger in confronting someone with these traits. And I would say he also has some sociopathic traits. Perhaps if you're going to obliviate children for your own gain, there's a danger that comes with confronting someone like this. Right? It's going to provoke what we call a narcissistic injury or narcissistic rage. Sometimes all that means is they yell at you or they stonewall you, they never talk to you again, but sometimes they could actually hurt you, like we see here, where he's then going to obliviate all of them. And maybe Snape and McGonagall as adults with fully developed frontal lobes somewhere in there, appreciate that. So they know how to toe the line, but children don't right especially maybe at their age they're still coping with I would think like that very rigid sense of right and wrong and maybe they're struggling to see like well why don't you understand this is wrong so stop doing very. That can be dangerous to confront people like, yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think it's interesting that Dumbledore who's kind of to me like all knowing goes along with it and I think the other professors take their cues from him and I wonder if Dumbledore in that moment was like leave or we're done with you. I think the other professors would have jumped on and been like yes, we don't like you or you're a fraud. But he had a very interesting, he didn't really say anything. Yeah. And he's powerful and certainly more powerful and is the person that I think could absolutely send him on his way without really repercussions and he didn't.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He also probably hired. Exactly. Were they desperate?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe that position, right.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It's cursed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Lockhart probably thought well I could do it because I'm the best that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There ever was and I could imagine we've come to find out. I don't think we know it yet but how much Snape wants it and I bet there's some tension there with Dumbledore not letting him take know. We see that tension with Snape come out with every single defense against the dark arts teacher over time.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: True.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And then to Dumbledore's point there was a lot more stuff happening that I think he was tied up in maybe like that children getting know being sent to Azkaban his own position being threatened. And I think that's the other thing. I draw the parallel of Lockhart's popularity to social media which is like if someone this popular says something about you at this juncture it's going to really impact your credibility because we have so many followers.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: True.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh that's a really good point. That's a really good point. I thought the supporting characters in this movie were all so fascinating in their own ways. Like we've talked about some of them already. Dobby Lockhart, the Malfoy family. I also want to make sure we leave time to talk about moaning Myrtle, Fox, the Phoenix and Tom Riddle. But before we get there, Gila I was hoping you could speak more to the father son dynamic between Draco and Lucius Malfoy. And again I think probably intentional that they're know, white blonde british men.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: As you're speaking to these cultural and racial differences like perfect casting it was lovely.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think the way they selected both of them and sort of Lucius's haughtiness and arrogance that comes through. But it also shows you his narcissism. Like the minute he finds that he was scammed by Harry for Dobby, his wand comes out.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There's that narcissistic injury. There's. It is.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: You took something from me without my permission. How dare you? And then you also have this underlying dynamic of the Slytherin family their sort of loyalty to Salazar Slytherin, Voldemort being Slytherin's heir, who had opened the chamber of Secrets. It is all this loyalty and alliance and the way I would see that dynamic of it is something like father son passed on. But I think in the later books you also see the tension the Malfoy parents have in trying to keep their son. The dilemmas that they're sort of poor Draco is put in and this challenging situations that they are sort of stuck with, this alliance that they've formed. I also sort of draw the parallel of these are sort of the loyalties and belonging that people form to different groups that families can sort of inherit. I think one of the very poignant quotes I once read was that when we're born, we're given our name, an identity, a religion, a race, and we spend our whole lives trying to defend them. We chose none of it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's so powerful and so true. I was just thinking too, like gender, even in this.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And you have no control or choice in the matter. So there is a lot of, I think, modeling for Draco from Lucius. But I think later on, maybe not in this book, you kind of see their struggles of trying to know that your son belongs in this circle and how are you going to keep him safe knowing it's dangerous and all those things can be potentially fatal for him. And I think similarly with Voldemort and Salazar Slytherin, that whole thing about true blood and belonging to the true blood family. Similarly, Salazar Slytherin created the chamber of secrets for that reason. All of that just points towards this sort of propagation. Yet it is very covert, it is hidden, it is done on the sides, which is just such a lovely parallel to what happens with racism that, yes, when you give it permission, it becomes very overt and yet there are so many people who have it and maybe are just acculturated and this is their norm that they don't realize it and when given the opportunity, it comes up. But in other circumstances, it's very hidden.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And even it's just such a beautiful visual representation of that. Right. Even the fact that it's, like in the bathroom. Right. Like, you can turn on the faucet and it'll flood or you can turn it off. It can trickle or you can go down the tube. Right. It's so beautifully masterfully done.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: What do we think about snakes, right. And, like, the symbolism of just, like, the monster being a snake. The symbol to talk to snakes, Harry. And then in book one, we see that right away kind of with him hearing at the zoo.

Dr. Katrina Furey: At the zoo.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's a good animal that they chose.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Because snakes are kind of like. A lot of people are scared of them. They're slimy, they're slithery. They kind of catch it by surprise. They can bite you and hurt you sometimes they're totally harmless. A quote that really stuck out to me in this movie was when Hermione told Harry hearing voices no one else can hear isn't a good sign, even in the wizarding world.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: True. Which is why I think that's the parallel of how close to reality that whole place is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Imagine hearing them.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, Harry. I mean, like, all of a sudden you're hearing this whooshing through the wall and then you're hearing this voice and everyone else is just like, what are you talking about? I mean, what a challenging ordeal to go through. And then it is real, right. Which is kind of like, thank goodness. Because then there's maybe other concerns going on if it's not. But that's hard shouldering again. It's like he's out on this island, right? He's Harry Potter.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: He's unique.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And now it's, again, like this thing that makes him unique. Not really in a good way in this movie.

Dr. Katrina Furey: In a scary way. And I think we start to see him grappling with the good and bad dark parts of himself which it seems like he shares with Voldemort. Right? And we start to see that inner tension he has. Like, should I been a slytherin? Am I a Gryffindor? As if it's so black or white. We start to see that such a beautiful representation.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think similarly to your point, like snakes, I know, from a psychodynamic perspective, have a very different meaning. But I think the one thing about it is that the places they can penetrate and go. And I think that was with the basilisk that you have Hogwarts, the safe space of where magic is. This is sort of this magic central for education and learning and yet it is penetrated by evil. Forces from within and they're lurking. They're again, in the shadows. I think that's about snakes, is they hide in dark places. So I think there is this whole veil of. I read an article about this veil of concealment and deceit and deception that is very prevalent throughout all of the chamber of secrets because it's a chamber of secrets, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's in the name, literally.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: The deception, like the diary, deceives Jenny and it also kind of speaks to the power of words which can really influence people. Then the deception with the polyjuice that they're able to get some information, but they have to conceal, know, deceive, concealment under the invisibility cloak and concealment in a way of like Gildor Lockhart concealing his real identity and the truth about himself. So a lot of general themes about deception and concealment. And then I think the symbolism of the snake is also in the Garden of Eden about deception. So I think there are a lot of different themes and motifs and parallels around that. But to your point about the sort of ambivalence around your identity and belonging and I think between him and Voldemort, the core of the wands are the same. They are both parcel mouths. They are both, like, raised somewhat by Muggles. He was in an orphanage. He was with the Dursleys. So very similar life experiences that they start showing to where Dumbledore will say that it's the choices that you make that make all the difference. You can see that with all these similarities you can actually show kids and adults that really, just because we say someone had a very different upbringing or a difficult start or has certain traits, it's not a life sentence. And what a beautiful message to give that even if the things are against you and you have seen other role models or people that you sort of can identify with have very different paths that are not ideal, you can still carve a different one with the choices that you make.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. That's so beautiful. And I think it's so important. I'd imagine, especially when you're working with kids and adolescents who are coming from difficult backgrounds, whatever they might be, even adults. But I think maybe especially when you're still forming your identity to know that you don't have to follow this path, you can make different choices. And that even though there might be parts of you that remind you of. I'm just thinking about, like a parent, maybe an abusive parent or you get angry and lash out, that doesn't mean you're just like them. And I think that's something that's so painful for people to process and work through when they're trying to recover from an upbringing like that.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think that also speaks to corrective parenting like you have McGonagall and Dumbledore in a way that is a very stark contrast to Molly Weasley and also Petunia Dursley and Uncle Vernon where when they think they're going to get expelled and Professor McGonagall's response is, you're not getting expelled. But I must impress upon you the seriousness of what you've done. So they are really sort of the modeling of good parenting of they are trying to protect their kids but they are not fighting their fights for them. They are not going and intervening in every conflict. They are giving them their space to have their own adventures, come to their own conclusions, figure things out but still being sort of neutral, supportive, guiding, wise.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But they don't give the kids the answers right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And still.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Think.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I wish that we got a little window into where when Ginny, I'm assuming, goes and meets her family or maybe sees her parents after the chamber. And just like I would imagine the support that she receives because she goes on to be appearingly a secure person. And I think it's even thinking of the build up before. I'm sure she's felt loved and important in the way that she can with so many siblings. And she's the only girl that she's okay. Even though dealing with this traumatic experience and having this relationship with Tom Riddle. Right. For almost the whole school year where she's writing and just thinking about all. I'm just so curious about how that affected her and why she was so susceptible to it. I think she got this special book and finally she had her own thing and this person wanted to talk to her. And of course, for her, I think it's just like a smart match which Lucius, I'm sure, knew.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, he did. These people can sniff it out, I always say.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And it also kind of sort of parallels how Draco is trying to put Harry and Hermione down how Lucius was trying to put the Weasleys down by sort of planting that book.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Book.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And he knew he would get Arthur Weasley into trouble because of all of this. And that was sort of the goal of if Jenny gets into trouble so there's bigger players and yet you have the little ones who have to go through these experiences.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, like you said, very covert and sort of maybe playing like a long game and using the children really? As pawns in his own game, which is pretty nasty.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right in line with narcissism. Right in. So, you know, before we wrap up, Gila, I'm also dying to hear what you think about moaning Myrtle. One of my favorite characters of all time.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Love moaning Myrtle.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Love her.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I just love the morbidity. Like, I was in my cubicle thinking of death.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's like, I don't know if you saw the Barbie movie that came out last summer.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did you see it when they're all.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Dancing and she's like, y'all ever think about dying? And everyone's like, we can't go there.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: But what I took from Morning Myrtle was sort of this invisibility of not being seen even after death. Like, just come and throw another book at me. Imagine the distress in which she died was crying. Like, she didn't even see who it was because she was crying and she was distraught. And just how lonely she is in that bathroom that she says, if you die, you can come.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And so different from nearly headless Nick, who's also a ghost and walking around, but almost revered. Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like the crazy one who's up to no good. She's just in her bathroom being sad. But I really do want to say Harry's response, and I caught it this time, that I watched it with my mental health cap on. Ron is like, ew. And Harry's like, okay, sure, myrtle. Like, that's great. And he's just so kind and so just. I don't know. It's amazing, resilient.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think he can tolerate that because he knows what that feels like. Right. Like, he just naturally, I think, will be more open to that. Maybe not even realize it's a strength.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: The rejection, the isolation. And I think it's just such a close parallel to kids who are being bullied, school, who go and hide in the bathrooms. It's just so real. But it also kind of tells you that that is such an impressionable time in someone's life that these insults, she could not get over them after death either. So that was part of her sadness. And the Persona she carried was she wasn't seen. Or if she was, it was not in a very positive way.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And those words really leave a mark indefinitely in her case.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's sad again, but an important.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Message for kids to learn, maybe, like, as you're watching the movie, the kindness.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And also, I think that's the other theme that comes up through the movie where you talked about Hermione sort of standing up to Draco is that kids facing bullying, how do you do that? How do you stand up when to walk away versus when to actually address it? I think they're just beautifully highlighted in a very subtle way, but it is modeling for kids and this is one adverse outcome. And yet here are some good, strong role models for you to see who are going to come across that bully.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think even a good role model for parents as I'm watching it now as a parent with my children who are younger than these kids in the movie but are already starting to face some of these issues. We don't live in an ideal world where you can just resolve conflict with your words alone or there's always an adult around who can intervene. Like, yes, that's the hope. But when it's not, you have to start talking to your kids about, well.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: What do you do?

Dr. Katrina Furey: And those are hard conversations to have as a parent.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, but you're good at it, Dr. Fury. Yeah, I hope so. We'll see.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Come back in about 15 years. We'll see how everything's going.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Before we wrap up, are there any other lingering thoughts or themes we want to make sure we address? I think the only other one on my mind was Fox the Phoenix and how I'm going to call her a she. I don't remember Fox's gender. It doesn't really matter. But I've decided it's the girl like us. How she saves the know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Harry being a true Gryffindor, right? And that's what Dumbledore kind of reminds him of with the sword and then you called Fox, which means you must have been, I think it's like true of heart or you are putting yourself before someone else's needs to save. You know, thank goodness for Dumbledore because I think he really anchored Harry. And I did make the choice, right, to be in Gryffindor. I asked the hat and he was like, that's the difference which we mentioned before about the importance of our choices, despite what's sometimes in our environments or sometimes traits that we might have. And Fox is know, I love that they grow old and kind of like turn into ash and Harry's like, oh, my. Like, what's happening? Then the of out of death and darkness comes life and good things and rebirth.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it's really beautiful.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Thanks for reminding us of that. That's a better way to end than exactly some think.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, I think too.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Just again, this movie and all of Harry Potter really touches on the good and bad parts in all of us. How we all have good and bad parts, and that's okay. And that, like, if you look up the traits of a slytherin or a Gryffindor, which, you know, so slytherin, they know ambition, resourcefulness, determination, cleverness. That all sounds great when you channel it in the right way, but you could channel it in this sort of elitist, villainous way that Salazar, Slytherin and some others have sort of evolved into. And same thing with, know, bravery, honor, loyalty, boldness. Again, channel it in a good way.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Or you could kind of become reckless.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Self righteous, have a short temper, always.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Want to be the hero.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That can get you into trouble sometimes, but it's like a double sided sword. Is that a thing where it could be good or bad, depending on how you channel it. And again, that speaks to the choices that we make and so important for kids to hear, and I think I heard a quote somewhere, I'm going to butcher it now, probably where I think we're not responsible for the trauma we might be born into or grow up in, but we are responsible for then kind of what we do with it and how to move forward. And that's a really important point I think we all probably use in our work with people and maybe just as humans walking the earth.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I just know, to your point, the fact. Well, I'll say two things. One is not all slytherins are bad, which is, I think, something Harry bought into when he was like, please don't put me in Slytherin when he was under the sorting hat. But really, I think that to your .1 of the biggest things about the loyalty, the sacrifice, and I think that was one of the things that, throughout the whole series, helped Harry differentiate himself from Voldemort, is the sense of love we've internalized, which is so important for kids and us as adults and human beings, is to know we were loved, even if our parents are not around, even if those people who loved us are not in our lives. Just that sense of being loved can really change the life of a human being, which is something Voldemort did not just helps anchor him into. Yes, if I was loved, I can sacrifice my love for others. I can be loyal to others.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think every child just wants to belong to Hogwarts.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And I think Harry, although he lost his parents so early, I think it's deep down he knows he was loved. And he's constantly told that over and over. Right. About his life story. So even though he didn't have it for very long. Somewhere in there, he knows it, and he's reminded of that, which is so important for kids.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And when you don't have it, you're really vulnerable to nefarious people out. Oh, gosh, what a great way to start my day. This is just such a treat. Thank you so much for joining us, Sheila. We love you for all the.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I guess, you know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you want to tell everyone where they can find you on instagram?

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Sure. It's zheeque and hope to be part of these in the future.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my gosh, yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We would love to have Harry Potter journey.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, we're on a journey, too. And again, thank you so much for listening to this episode. You can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram, TikTok, and on YouTube. Now if you want to watch this episode. And we will see you again next Monday for our next episode.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Great.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey: All right, bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's fine.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are rereleasing one of our favorite episodes where we were joined by one of Dr. Furey's favorite teachers from residency, Dr. Zheala Qayyum. Dr. Qayyum is the Training Director for the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship Program and the Medical Director of the Emergency Psychiatry Services at Boston Children's Hospital. She has published on the use of fairy tales in teaching child psychiatry and joins us to discuss the first "Harry Potter" movie. In this episode, we discuss many interesting themes including the psychological effects of early childhood trauma and neglect, the attachment styles of the three main characters, and the importance of friendship in identity formation. We also reflect on the mirror of Erised and the importance of exploring dark feelings and themes in childhood from a safe space, such as through this magical film. We hope you enjoy as much as we enjoyed speaking with Dr. Qayyum!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends. There is so much misinformation out there.

[00:30] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM Five and enjoy.

[00:50] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Don'T.

[01:17] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: For a very special episode of Analyze Scripts, because one of my favorite attendings for my residency training is joining us to talk about one of my favorite movies, harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, or The Philosopher's Stone, depending on which country you're watching it in. So today we have Dr. Gila Kayum, the training director for the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship program and the medical director of the emergency Psychiatry services at Boston Children's Hospital. She holds faculty appointments at Yale School of Medicine and Harvard Medical School, and she's the associate director of medical student education and Psychiatry. She's also serving as a lieutenant colonel in the United States Army Reserves Medical Corps and deployed to Afghanistan and was later mobilized in support of the COVID-19 response to New York. Dr. Kayoom has published on the topics of medical education, autism spectrum disorders, inpatient treatment of early psychosis, and LGBTQ, plus youth, the use of fairy tales in teaching child psychiatry, and the risk of youth suicide and firearms. She has a particular interest in the areas of supervision and mentorship, which she's so good at psycho oncology and palliative care. And I feel like we always called her Dr. Q. I guess I'm allowed to call her by her first name because I'm a grown up now, but I still feel kind of funny about it. But you were one of my favorite mentors, and I feel like you're really special because sometimes when you have a mentor, it kind of feels like they're trying to mold you in their image. But I always felt like you just wanted what was best for me, and you were so encouraging, and I just always loved working with you, and you hold a really special place in my heart.

[02:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So this is really fun to talk about.

[03:00] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Harry Potter no, this is, like, making me teary. This is just a lovely intro I have gotten. And it's just such a thrill that the people that you invest in grow up to be such amazing child or adult or psychiatrists, but more so, just people. And you're very dear to me as well. The best part of being an educator and a clinician is that not only are you trying to sort of transfer your skills or your wisdom, but you get to see your kids grow and become they're meant to be and their best versions. And if you think you're a part of that journey, I think that's just the most amazing privilege.

[03:50] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Well, I know you were for me, and I know you were for a lot of my co residents, so it's so true. So I am dying to talk to you about this movie, given your interest in using fairy tales to explore development. So I just kind of want to jump right in and hear what you think about the first Harry Potter movie and kind of what jumps out at you.

[04:13] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: So I think one of the loveliest things about Harry Potter was that it was a modern fairy tale, and we've had a lot of lovely fantasy series, but there was something very special about Harry Potter that just captured everyone, whether it was kids or adults. It's interesting, whenever I ask people what their favorite children's book is, inevitably, for a lot of them, it's Harry Potter. And I read it in med school. So I was much older, but I still stood in line at midnight yes, where I was standing next to like, ten year olds in their robes, and I was like, Am I in the right place? But you felt like you were in the right place. And I think that's what it communicated was it was or is a modern fairy tale for all ages. It just has that essence of a fairy tale, that it means something different to different people at whatever stage of development or life they're in. So a child can interpret it in their own way and have things that they resonate with. And as adults, we might find things that resonate to us, whether based on the hero's journey, these ordeals and call to action and your helpers that bring you along, but also the trepidations, the challenges, the times you doubt yourself when things are there. How do you overcome challenges and this power of transformation through a journey and a story that you're not the same person that you started off as, but with all of the things that you've had to experience? How does that evolve and transform you till you come full circle in some way? Not the same person that left, but so much more wiser grown. I think it's the transformative journey that we see from the first book that started, but there are these just themes that just feel like so relevant to today about loss and difficulty and when you're seeing this drive for power around you and how do you fit in the whole picture. And we usually have a reluctant protagonist in many stories that is not fully sure they want to take on the adventure and the call for action, and yet they do. But I think most importantly for me, the biggest thing was the importance of hope and friends.

[07:04] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I totally agree. And it's funny you mentioned hearkening back to standing in line at midnight at, like, Borders Books or wherever you were. I totally did the same thing. I think I was in middle school and then high school. But it is really fascinating how Harry Potter and other fairy tales like it. But I feel like especially Harry Potter, it is such a cultural, communal enjoyment and not just in American culture, but certainly worldwide. It's just such a really cool thing that it just really spans ages, genders, cultures, nationalities, languages. Everyone loves it, right? And I feel like this movie rewatching it now as an adult with my children was so meaningful and fun. So I have a seven year old and a four year old and they were just enraptured by it. They wouldn't stop talking the whole time. They wouldn't take their eyes off and this isn't like a cartoon, so they're still at the ages where really it's cartoons that catch their attention for two and a half hours. But this one did, and that was really interesting to me and really special. And I love some of their commentary. Like, with her, MayAny always raising her hand. My daughter, which I was so happy, said she's got a really big brain. And I was like, yes, she know. And then when Draco came on the scene very early on, my son was like, oh, he's a bully. And I was just you know, it's just really cool to kind of see kids watching it too.

[08:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I think it's worth mentioning something interesting. When I was starting to read the books before the music, the movies had started kind of coming out. I remember very distinctly the religious organization that I was a part of at the time was very split with people thinking that you shouldn't be reading it. It's magic. It's witchcraft. Witchcraft. And then the other half being like, if you know the story, it's like this good versus evil. Good always triumphs. There's hope. There's, like you were saying, friendships. I mean, it's such a positive message. And there's so many interesting.

[09:23] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I don't.

[09:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Know, like, spiritual parallels and parallels throughout all of the books. But I think it was just an interesting time to be know, hearing this spoken series is bad or evil and then reading them. Know, in my family, we were very pro Harry Potter and loving the messages. And I think that was just like I don't know. I'm sure some other people might have had that experience.

[09:45] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, I totally remember.

[09:48] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right.

[09:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, we come to see this boy in, I would say, a pretty abusive home with a lot of neglect. And I think it's funny watching it or thinking about it now versus in. Like, I'm curious what even your kids picked up of the scenes. The parents certainly seem mean and right dismissive. And you picked that up even as a child, like something not right. Why does Dudley receive all of these gifts and Harry not his clothing?

[10:18] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, my kids were asking about that?

[10:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like why are they so mean to?

[10:22] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Why is he living under the stairs? They certainly were asking those questions.

[10:29] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, no, I think it's a really lovely depiction of how prevalent and difficult it is for kids that have neglect. And I think also it really sort of from starting from him being under the stairs and just watching Dudley get 36 presents and counting and him thinking about, like he has to get hand me downs to go to school and what that would be like. Just that differential that was created and that sense of otherness or I don't belong or I'm not good enough. It really, I think, beautifully highlights how a child will internalize that, because you see that then play out throughout, which partly keeps him humble when everybody thinks he's this amazing everybody knows him, but he's coming from where? Nobody. Knows anything about him. And he held on to that for a very long time and it really changed his I think we see him work through it, but his sense of belief and faith in his own abilities and his self because they told him he wasn't good enough for a good eleven years. And that sense of feeling like you're worth something that he didn't get initially. And how does one young child actually grow to develop that? Partly it kept him humble in the face of, I don't know, magician dumb or stardom or whatever that was that he got later on. But also, it really impeded his ability to rely on other people. And we see. This in the later books as well, but whenever he has to do something, he's very like the avoidant attachment style. I can't trust people to be there for me. And we know later in the books there are other losses that sort of reinforce that for him. But he embarks on everything on his own and working with others and trusting others comes very, very it's very challenging for him, comes much later.

[12:52] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I like that you brought up his attachment style. Can you explain a little bit what avoided attachment is or the kind of kids or adults we might see that in and how Harry either fits in or doesn't quite fit in.

[13:09] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: So the avoidant attachment style is when a young child has inconsistent caregiving where their needs may not be consistently met. And so rather than clinging to their caregiver to get their needs met, they're like avoiding contact with them because they don't know are they coming, are they going, or are they going to be there. So the child starts to avoid that contact and doesn't get need or avoids contact with the caregiver to get soothed and self regulated. So we see the same thing, that since the Attachment is our template for forming relationships, that we carry on in life, we see Harry particularly later on as he's growing older, that even in adolescence, whenever there is a challenge, he goes off on his own rather than relying on anybody else because he doesn't know. Are people going to really be there for him or not? Are they going to leave? Are they going to neglect him? So he might as well do that for himself and just go off on his own. So that sense of avoiding closeness with people because they might leave or not be there for you, is that sense that avoidant children internalize and so they don't keep looking for closeness with people. It's good that we see Harry work through this over a great many books, which also tells you that it runs in parallel with the life experience of a young child who's had early life neglect and avoidant attachment style might need a lot of reinforcement of positive interactions to say, no, you can rely on other people. If you do get close to people, it'll be okay. And yet loss is a very, I think, integral part of our human experience and life. And for an avoidant child, there is that risk that it just might reinforce that belief that people are not going to be there for them.

[15:18] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And in addition to Harry having that early childhood neglect and abuse, he also had early loss of his parents, who seem like lovely caregivers, who were likely very attuned to his needs, at least as far as we can tell, and that he was present for their murder. And so I was really curious about your take on that, given around the age they depict that and then what it must have been like for him at age eleven to start learning the truth about that loss at the same time as he's learning their loss is why he's famous or special. I just imagine that's got to be so confusing.

[16:03] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Absolutely. And I think that's such a lovely point of there's so much magic instilled in that power, of that parental love that he carried with him that it literally burned. Professor Squirrel.

[16:22] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[16:23] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It was so powerful. I think it does show, though, however, that it was at a very sort of vulnerable time period in his life when that death occurred. He was still a baby, and we're thinking, like, till from infancy to toddlerhood, maybe the first part went well when his parents were attuned and taking care of him, but later on, and still in that very vulnerable time frame, he had a lot of neglect. And so as you're entering into your preteen years, your sense of, how do I relate with my peers? Who am I in relationship with them? Will they accept me as? We're thinking about later, latency age and early preteens going into your identity formation, who you are is so sort of determined by who are the people in your life? Who brought you here? What is your story? How did you start? And I remember as a child, my mom would tell me stories about, well, when you were little we did this things I wouldn't remember. But still you create these memories based on the things that your parents tell you as well when you're younger. But those things are so important in our development, and now he had to figure that out on his own. Who was he? What were his parents like? That question of when he goes and sees his father's name on the trophy room and he's like, I didn't know he was a Seeker. There's just so many knowns for him to figure out who he is because he doesn't know where he's coming from, and your legacy or your lineage or what are the wonderful stories about how amazing you are. Your parents tell you he never had that. And now he has to create his own narrative about who he is, which is the whole process through the book.

[18:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And speaking of like, identity formation, he went from being told that you're such a burden, you're unwanted. Your parents were horrible, they were weird or strange, to being praised or whoa, Ron's reaction to it's. You with the scar on the train, know, having all of this wealth suddenly and this importance in this world, it's just so interesting. You had written down with Hagrid, like him just going with that to this magical place that if somebody had told an eleven year old me, I think, and I'm hopefully that I'm securely attached, I would have been afraid to go with Hagrid.

[19:08] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[19:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This big, burly, giant, half giant man who's telling me all these things that we're going to go to this magical place. I think for a securely attached child, they probably wouldn't have gone. But he didn't have any attachments. And then I think anything is better than living with the directly to finally.

[19:29] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Take him out of that situation.

[19:31] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right.

[19:31] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's like almost like this savior has come to rescue him. What were your thoughts about that, Dr. Q? The way he so know, latched onto Hagrid?

[19:41] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, I think just like Portia said, it's like that insecure attachment, there's nothing to hold him there. But he's also, I think, like you talked about at a point where he's thinking about things and his life. If he's going to go to the same school as Dudley, what is that going to be? He's getting into trouble constantly. And imagine the message you internalize after you're told that everything you do is wrong or you're a bad kid, and you get told that long enough, you start believing it. So maybe it wasn't such a far fetched thing to say, I'm going and I'm taking off.

[20:19] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[20:20] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: What's the worst thing that can happen whenever anything I do isn't good anyway?

[20:27] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? And I think we see that in clinical work. And probably you see a lot more, given your line of work, in kids who maybe will go off with not safe people. That sort of increases their vulnerability for those very situations.

[20:43] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Because at the core of it, every kid just wants to belong.

[20:48] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[20:49] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And so if it was what Hagrid said, is that's where you belong? He hasn't had that sense of belonging at the Dursleys. So he will try. And go and find if he belongs somewhere else and what other people.

[21:09] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And he does find.

[21:10] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I feel like I'm going to cry.

[21:11] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Talking about Harry Potter and also just thinking about Hagrid is like, I just love Hagrid. He's such a gentle giant, but I couldn't think of a better person to come scoop up Harry. Right. Like, even just imagining him sort of putting him in the little sidecar, he's, like, nice and cozy and secure and contained and I hope just feels safe next to this big old guy who.

[21:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Stood up to the dursleys, right? Chased found him. I remember my blood boiling even watching the movie again or rereading the book when they keep taking his know you know, it's such.

[21:58] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: His letter.

[21:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's the one thing he has.

[22:02] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But then Hogwarts is like, well, we'll send you more. We're not going to give up. And I would imagine for, like, how wonderful. That must feel like, wow, they really.

[22:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Are trying to get to me.

[22:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No one has wanted me like that before. And they're being like Hogwarts or whoever. Dumbledore's love for him is so transcendent and powerful that it wins. Out against the neglect of the know.

[22:29] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Just beautiful and sort of how teary Hagrid was when he was first dropping him off when he was a baby and dumbledore saying it's not goodbye for.

[22:42] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh my gosh I feel like, that's how I am. Every year the new school year starts, you're just like, oh, my gosh, they're growing up.

[22:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then hermione I think it's worth mentioning. So she has, it seems, securely attached, supportive parents. But is living as a muggle her whole life until receiving these letters and going to Hogwarts and then learning that she is like a mudblood and that she is not good enough. Her blood is like, dirty. And yet she is so brilliant, and I think that's such an interesting reversal of her and Harry's experience. She's still really smart, but it's like it's not good know are calling her names like Draco. And I don't think that she experienced that. Prior know the little bits that we get of her pre hogwarts.

[23:40] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And interesting to think about her parents. Like getting this random letter and sending her. Right?

[23:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[23:51] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: That's the wonderful thing about secure attachment and great parenting is know, we're all about you. So if this is who you are and this is your success and this is where you're going to thrive, sure.

[24:03] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: We don't know anything. Go for it.

[24:06] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think that is part of Hermione's own resilience as well is that that secure attachment, as difficult as those interactions with Draco are, allows her to stand up for Harry and Ron and build friendships and sort of extend that beyond the parental unit onto her friends, new people and say, because I have a good sense of attachment and security and I know people will be there for me, I can be there for other people, too. And then you can carry it forward. So I think Hermione is a really nice example of a secure attachment. And then I think you see that play out a little bit more. Not in the first book, but later on at the Yule ball, where she can put Ron in his place for not asking her out and sort of take ownership of her own. Know, next time you want to do this, pluck up the courage and ask, right?

[25:10] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Boundaries.

[25:11] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think that's a really nice illustration of how important attachment is as a child is growing and then into adolescence that the same things play out in your other relationships.

[25:25] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And how amazing to have a girl character like Hermione, right? Like, I think all the things you just said, like her bravery, her intellect, her self confidence, her boundaries, I just think so lovely to have a girl character like this for girls and boys and adults to read about and identify with. And she can maintain that sense of herself in the face of draco and the slurs and the comments, even when people even know who she goes on to marry down the road. Spoiler alert. Even as he's kind of putting her down for being smart, she doesn't stop raising her, know? And I remember as a middle school girl who loved school, just loving that, just loving that. And I loved watching now my daughter, watch her, and I'm just like, soak this up, soak this.

[26:20] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, such a lovely little bottle for girls. And then since we're on the topic, like, you think about Ron, who is like this lost soul in this big family of redheads. And so you kind of see his sort of anxious style come through that, particularly when he was asked to relax and he couldn't.

[26:44] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes, he's like, I don't know how.

[26:49] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right? And all the hand me down. Not that he got, but also the same sweater that he gets every year, that there is love in that family, there is care, but also with so many kids, they're kind of lost until they get into trouble, that they get into parental they get parental attention and you hear about their concerns. And so even though there is not a lot of any mal intent anywhere within the Weasley family, but you can see where Ron's anxiety and anxious attachment style comes in and you see the same thing in the Eubolic. And the anxious attachment style is, you know, the child that doesn't know how to get through, they're like, all right, please pick me up. No, now put me down. No, pick me up again. I'm not sure. They're just taking time to self regulate and self soothe and sometimes they can get pretty irritable and upset too, and so they might lash out. And you see that in the U ball scene, too, where I know I'm jumping ahead, but rather than asking Hermione, he gets really sulky and irritable rather than owning up, but he wants it, but he doesn't know how to do it. So you kind of see that tension and that sort of clinginess but not sure what to do sort of thing. So I think the whole series really highlights these attachment styles really nicely.

[28:19] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Isn't that amazing? How did JK. Rowling do that? And I thought the fact that they're all eleven, it was just perfect, right? Like at that age and kind of with all the books following them through is just really beautifully done, I think.

[28:39] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And you can kind of play out in the carriage scene when they're first on the Hogwarts Express together, where I think Hermione comes in looking for Neville's Frog frog. And you see how confident she is and she's you're and who are you and have you done this? And so self aware, self confident. And then you have Harry just sitting by himself, not sure he wants to talk to anybody. And poor Ron, who's trying to get his presence known again, just like a young child in a big family would feel lost, that I have to make my presence known, otherwise I won't get the attention I need. And poor Scabbers that he's trying to turn yellow and that's not working out. So you kind of see it play so nicely in a very simple scene.

[29:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Definitely something that I noticed, and I think it's just my interpretation of things, is that Ron seems to have the most obvious shame about his finances compared to the other siblings. I don't really notice or even Jenny's younger in this book, but being so visibly upset, I know that there's the interaction in the robes shop with Draco and then on the train, even with his little sandwich, right, he can't buy the treats. And then there's like whoa when Harry has those gold coins. And it really does seem to impact him even throughout the rest of the story. Just that intersectionality. He's a pure blood, but he is poor. And then how that really goes up against Draco and his Pure Blood and wealth family.

[30:34] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think that's an interesting thing to think about the intersectionality of all their identities in this sort of fantasy world, right? There's so many parallels. Like even if you think about different intersectional identities in our culture today, and it's just interesting to think about it's an older book.

[30:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, again, it's so easy to talk about these more seemingly popular nuanced ideas. They've been around for a while, but everyone kind of talks about their intersectionality or different identities. And it's so clear in the book, right?

[31:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It does seem like the type of series where you'll always get more from it. I reread the series I think, last year, and I loved it, and I feel like I got more from it as an adult than I did as a kid. And it's one of those things where I feel like every time you read it, you'll get more and more from it.

[31:31] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It just means something different. Yeah.

[31:35] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So one thing I was hoping we could talk about is the mirror of Irisev, which is desire spelled backwards. I totally choked up watching this part again, as an adult, I was curious to hear about your experience.

[31:52] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, I had so many thoughts about that. I mean, it's such a powerful thing. And the fact that if you're truly content, then you can see yourself as you are, only the happiness, and if that is the measure of happiness. And it was like, wow, just the visual illustration of happiness, that you could see yourself and just see yourself as you are. Because I just felt like, yes, it is desire spelled backwards, but it is so prevalent throughout with starting with those 36 presents that you want more, and Voldemort wanting more, that defeated and needing to come back and needs to get more and more power and even kills a unicorn for it.

[32:46] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, my gosh, that was devastating for my four year old daughter. I regretted that part horribly.

[32:51] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Like, yes, moving but jarring scene. And then the fact that your heart's deepest desires that you're desperate for and you'll see that, but anything that's too much is going to consume you. And those people who sort of run after the things that they really, really want, I think it was a very powerful way of giving that message of too much consume you and there'll be nothing left. Like it does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. So I just thought it takes so much courage, though, to ask yourself what it is that you really want in life. I mean, a lot of us may want all these things, but what is it that you truly, truly want? I think that's a very powerful question to ask. And how many of us really can look at ourselves in the mirror and say, this is what I really, really want in life, and to be able to face that and own it.

[33:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's a good question to ask a client, even, because I think you can always get to the feeling right under it. So if someone's they're saying that their deepest desire is financial gain, it's like, okay, but what does that mean? Does that mean you want to feel secure? Does it mean that you want to be powerful in a sense of authority? Do you want people to look up to you? It's always like a feeling.

[34:26] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And why? Where does that come from?

[34:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's a good place to explore with yourself and maybe with a patient as well.

[34:33] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Can you imagine, like, starting off a session, they come to see you. For the first time. And you're like, here is my mirror of IRISET.

[34:39] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah.

[34:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Looking at what do you see and.

[34:42] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What does that mean?

[34:45] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It'll make our job so much easier.

[34:47] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know, right quick, right real quick.

[34:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We'll get to the deep rooted issues in 10 seconds.

[34:54] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Easy peasy. Managed care will love it. So we see what Harry wants, which is his parents. And again, I was so struck by him going back to that mirror repeatedly and I was just like, of course he is, right? Like his parents are moving. You see his mother, his father touch his shoulder. I was just like, oh, I so feel that for him. Then we see him drag ron so excited to share that experience of his parents with him. But Ron sees himself as head boy and winning the quidditch cup. And again, that totally makes sense based on everything we just talked about with Ron's family. We didn't see hermione. And I was curious what you guys thought. What would hermione see, if anything, or would she see herself?

[35:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think maybe if anyone would be seeing themselves, it would be her. Especially like in book one. I think she does seem so content and excited and authentic that I think it might be her. Maybe it's her being top of the class.

[36:04] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think she is.

[36:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She already kind of is.

[36:08] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I have a feeling that the one thing she grows to develop were friendships. That I wonder if she might see herself surrounded with friends.

[36:17] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I think at her age again, I agree. Portia of the Three know. Harry rod hermione. I feel like she would be the one closest to seeing just her true self. But I wonder if at that age of eleven, as a girl, if there's something deeper she's not able to articulate yet that we might see like friendship.

[36:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think that's accurate. I think sometimes you get the books confused or what's, like maybe a fan fiction thing online or something. But I am pretty sure that she does say that she did struggle with friends and so to have these deep friendships build at Hogwarts, I think that might be it.

[37:00] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah. I'm just thinking know, she is very brilliant. So seeing herself as like the know, graduate or something of her class probably isn't far fetched. But if that intimidates other kids when she's correcting them over livio saw yes, that might rub kids the wrong way. That maybe that peer acceptance and those close friendships might be something that we see sort of develop over time as well.

[37:33] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And so as we start wrapping up our wonderful episode today, let's talk a little bit about their friendships. Because I just feel like, gosh, I thought the movie did such a good job explaining the book, which has so many concepts, so much magic in it. It's had to do so much in just two and a half hours of just like background, like this is where we find ourselves. This is Hogwarts. This is Quidditch. This is Voldemort. Like here it is. And capturing all these complex concepts in such like a beautifully visually appealing way. The music is wonderful but we certainly see the triad between Harry, Ron and Hermione starting and forming and we know that just grows and grows and gets more complex over time. And I was really curious Dr. Q about your thoughts about first of all that it's a triad. There's three of them, two boys and a girl and what do you think of all that?

[38:36] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I just love the idea and particularly since you have the girl be somebody like hermione and I thought it's really nice to see their parallel processes. Each one of them is trying to sort of discovering that they're each really good at something but not good at everything. Like Hermione realizes she's not good at quit it. How humbling for someone who's really good and smart to know quidditch is not for, you know, Harry discovering that's what he's really good at and very early on know Ron playing chess and how it was reinforced with all the points even Neville's like standing up to your. So I felt that that was such a lovely way of saying that some of the reasons why friendships are important is that no one is whole in themselves and so much stronger when we all complement each other. But how do you explain that to an eleven year old? But if they saw the movie they would understand that we are so much more when we're all together and how those friendships last over years even for many of us. And I also felt like the complexity that you talked about. I think another movie that highlights it really nicely is Inside Out.

[40:06] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes, we love that movie.

[40:08] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Our emotions are one color when they're younger and as you grow older they get more complex and those marbles are multicolored because emotions are more complex than just feeling sad, mad and glad. And similarly as we're thinking about I think this goes very nicely in a parallel of fairy tales and development that when children are younger they can only see good and bad. As long as you're giving me what I want you're the good parent. When you set limits you are not.

[40:43] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh I feel this every day older.

[40:46] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: You can hold the things together in the same person that there are things that are great about them and there are things that are some weaknesses. And when we're children we look at our parents as these idealized giants and as we grow older we see them for human beings that have wonderful strengths and flaws that we can still accept and love them still the same. So I think that is a big developmental challenge but I think the books highlight that really nicely with them being able to sit and tolerate that complexity.

[41:29] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That nothing is so and again with them starting this journey at age eleven. I feel like that's the perfect timing for all of this to start. And I wonder if even the darkness of Harry Potter in watching the first movie, I was like, all right. I think it'll be several years before I show my kids the second movie because each one gets a little darker, a little grittier. But I think that maybe contributes to why it sort of captured all of us. And it is darker than the Disney version. Like, Inside Out is a great example, but I think that just speaks to the reality.

[42:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, the books get more complex, the books get darker, the characters get more complex, the characters get know. I think it was just such an interesting time to read it as a child as they came out, because it really kind of aligned perfectly with my own development.

[42:28] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, exactly.

[42:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I remember my mom read me the first book, and then I remember the last one coming out, and I think my grandma said it to me. It was like raft in the Muggles, right? Like Muggles can receive on whatever date, and then I read it for myself. So I think it's so uniquely that way that led to so many people being a part of it for years and still feeling really connected to it now.

[42:53] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And now getting to share it with your own children, like I'm starting to do, is so special.

[42:59] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah. And that's the power of fairy tales, is that even if it may be really dark, it creates this metaphorical, imaginary, special place where you can still explore this darkness in a very safe way.

[43:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

[43:13] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Go process it. Look what it's like to be angry. Oh, my gosh. Cruel people, mean people. And then you come back to the safety of reading this with your mom and everything's going to be okay.

[43:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[43:27] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's so beautiful. It is. It's very special. Very special. Well, Dr. Q, is there anything else you were hoping we could touch, know, talking about Harry Potter, the first it.

[43:42] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think it's just a wonderful part of my life. I wish I was in Hogwarts, and that was the life I lived. Sometimes I'm looking forward to having a real Harry Potter birthday someday. But I think the thing that resonates most with me is this quote from Neil Gaiman that says, fiction is a lie that tells us true things over and over. And I think that's the power of Harry Potter is that the reason it spoke to so many of us is that we all connected at some level with something that was very true for each one of us.

[44:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I like that.

[44:20] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That is a really beautiful place to leave it. Well, Dr. Q, thank you so much for joining us. We would love to have you back for the next seven movies over the course of time. It was so nice to personally reconnect with you again, thank you all for listening to this very special episode of Analyze Scripts. If you'd like to hear our take on Inside Out, we do have an episode about that from several months ago. I don't know. Dr. Q, did you know they're making a sequel? I think it's supposed to come out in the next couple of years, so that's really exciting. I hope it's about Riley's adolescence. Yes, and we really hope it also shows her living through COVID. Like, we could really use that for all the kids. We could, right? But you can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram and TikTok and catch us next Monday for our next episode. Thanks so much.

[45:24] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: See you next time. Thank you for having me.

[45:32] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are releasing a short bonus episode where Dr. Furey discusses her recent THRILLING experience as a guest on Bitch Sesh/Garbage Sesh. Discussing mental healths themes as depicted in the "Real Housewives of Salt Lake City" season finale with her favorite housewive scholars, Casey Rose Wilson and Danielle Schneider, was a dream! We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is analyze scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and tv shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There is so much misinformation out there.

[00:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it drives us nuts. And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And your DSM five, and enjoy. Portia, you will not even believe what I got to do this week. I mean, you will because I've already told you about it, but I don't know details. I know. I've been waiting and waiting to share them with you today. Okay, so, as you know, I have been a scholar of the Real Housewives of everywhere as long as I've been a scholar of medicine, like, legit. I looked up, when did the Real Housewives franchise premiere? And it was 2006, the same year I entered medical school. So it's the same. I've been in parallel studying both. And my favorite podcast in the world is called ***** Sesh, and it's hosted by Casey Wilson and Danielle Schneider, who are like. Like Hollywood actresses. Writers like. Casey wrote bride wars. She was on SNL. Danielle wrote a bunch of different things. She was in stepbrothers. She was the assistant who saw them back to Seth Rogen for that job interview she's written for the Oscars. They had their own real housewives parody show on Hulu, so they're, like, legit. And last week, I know you don't watch the housewives or broadcasting out. You totally are. Like, you really are, because it's so good. And I feel like, honestly, I can say without a shadow of a doubt, I have learned so much about personality disorders, personality development. I also remember, literally, on my first inpatient psychiatry rotation, we were having a family meeting, and it was with a gentleman and his wife, who now I realize further out in my training, had very histrionic traits. We were trying to navigate a family meeting with them, and I literally, the night before, had seen an episode of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills with a couple's therapist and just mimicked what he was doing because I didn't know what to do. And I remember my chief resident being like, wow, that was really great how you mirrored it back to them, and he's like, how'd you know that. And I was like, it's just natural. Yeah. I don't know. I'm so good at this. But, like, legit. That's where I got it anyway. And we've seen all sorts of really bad therapy on these shows. Yeah. But long story short, there was an explosive finale of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City last. Just like, I was just like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Just so energized by it, as was the rest of the world. Jennifer Lawrence. Yes, exactly. I just had this know. I was just like, you know what? I'm going to go for it. I'm just going to email them, and I'm going to be, hey, like, I'm a psychiatrist. I trained at Yale. I know what I'm talking about. I'm dying to analyze this with you guys because they're really open about their own mental health in a really positive way. Like, they talk about their therapists and their psychiatrists really positively, which as a shrink, I appreciate. And they got back to me and they were like, okay, do you want to come on? And I was like, yeah, are you kidding? I didn't think you'd actually get back to me. It was so wild, portia. So anyway, so I joined them, and we talked about mental health stuff relating to the housewives. It was so cool. So let me ask you, is Salt Lake a good. Because to my limited knowledge, they haven't been around as long as four seasons, and you should. It's a good way to get into it. Okay. It's not like New York, where you'd have 20 years. Right? You have to watch. Like, this is pretty new, and it's explosive because one of them is now in prison, federal prison for six years for defrauding the elderly or this stuff. They caught it on camera. They didn't mean to. When the FBI came and raided their sprinter van, as they're all trying to go on a cast trip to look for her, you see all this unfold. So it's wild. It's wild. And then you see her profess her innocence and how all of them believe her, and then she pleads guilty. And as a mental health person, your wheels are turning, right? And all this stuff we talk about in our podcast, in terms of analyzing, is this person a narcissist? Are they a sociopath? What's the difference? It was just such a parallel to the finale. And so it was just so cool to talk to them for me personally, super selfishly, because I love them. You're a patreon member right? I'm what they call a bougie *****. I pay my, like, $12 a month, and I love that. They are the highlight of my week. I save it to listen to when I'm jogging and I'm giggling to myself. And it's such a good podcast because it's funny. I love the content. Their guests are amazing. But then it also has moments of being really sweet and poignant and moving. I just love that. And I think one thing that was so cool is that they were just as nice and warm and humble as they seem. And I feel like you don't always get that right sometimes they always say, don't meet someone you really want to meet because they could let you down. Right. And so I was kind of waiting for that, and it didn't happen. We sign onto the zoom, and I'm like, I can't believe I'm in this zoom. Of course. I'm so neurotic. I showed you, I had, like, four pages. You wrote so many notes. But you're also, like, a prepared queen who does research, and that's why you know what you're doing. I know. I think I probably drove the producer crazy because I was like, let me know what you want me to prepare. Do they have any specific questions? Otherwise, here's what I got, and I showed it to her. They were probably like, wow. But I wanted to be prepared. I wanted to really know what I was talking about. And then I feel like it totally kicks up my own imposter syndrome, where then you're like, maybe I don't really know what I'm talking. We log into the zoom. They let me in, and they introduce themselves. Hi, I'm Casey. Hi, I'm Danielle. And I was know I was, uh, I am fully aware, but that's just nice. I like that. That's nice. And it was a great conversation. It was really cool to see how does, like, I think we're a legit podcast, but, you know, one with membership ears and a producer, multiple producers, and they do live shows. They've been doing it for eight years. How do you do the tech? What's your tech set up as we're trying to figure it out ourselves? That was cool. And mostly, it was just so cool to talk about something I'm passionate about. Two things I'm so passionate about with these women I think are so funny. And that's your intuition, you know what I mean? That's your two worlds colliding. It was like, I don't know how I feel like it's all downhill from here in terms of 2024. We just started at the top. It's like the opposite of that Drake song. Yeah, there's nowhere else to go down. But, no, I hope that people enjoy it. I hope that we get some listeners from it who might be interested. I tried really hard to be like, yeah, we kind of talk like this, but more freely on our own podcast. They were so nice in terms of mentioning it and saying they were going to listen to it. And then I tried to plug us, and I said, like, hey, if you ever start your own podcast network, let us know if you're interested. We're here, and that's true. Producer Kate or producer Renee, if you're just. It was so cool. It was so. I'm. I'm so I'll. I'm obviously going to listen to the not. Well, I don't know if I can. If it's, like, a member, but you can share it with me. I want to hear that one episode. Yeah, well, I guess I'd pay for it because I'm a woman who supports other women. Yeah, we are women supporting women, as they say on the housewives, but usually they're not actually women supporting women. But we really. So thanks for having Katrina on. This is our life dream. It was so cool. It's just, like, such a cool, funny thing that I feel like only I would love so much. It's just such a funny thing, so unique to me. That was just like, yeah, I don't know. It's just, like, the coolest. I was talking to my mom when I was driving home, and I was like, it was so fun, and it was so cool to just be so present in such a fun moment. Right? Like, to just soak it up. So thank you to ***** Sesh for having me on. I took pictures of it on my calendar. I wrote it down in my paper calendar, so I have it for the whole year. It's just, like, so fun. It's so cool. That's a highlight. That's a highlight. That's a highlight for me, for sure. All right, well, thanks for sharing your story. I want to post this, so we got to keep it a little bit short, but I know we could literally talk forever about it because it's so cool. Oh, my God. And we'll talk about it maybe again. So listen to our other episodes. Yeah. Find us on Instagram and Ali scripts, podcasts on TikTok and YouTube. And welcome if you're coming over from ***** Sesh. We're all welcome here. We are a welcoming community. All right, thanks. Bye bye. Okay, it was.

[10:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

[11:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our channel. You don't close.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are diving into the controversial 2009 movie, "The Blind Side." This movie tells the story of pro footballer Michael Oher through the Tuohy's perspective. The content of the film has recently been revealed as an inaccurate and harmful narrative that conflicts with other's accounts including his own. Zerrell Stallings and Qur-an Webb, co-founders of the Association of Black Sports Officials (ABSO), join us with their expertise on sports trafficking, conservatorship and the impact high pressure can have on young athletes. We hope you enjoy!

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