Analyze Scripts

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are covering "The Bear" season 2. This season was a standout with food, relationships and understanding the character's histories. We could not have asked for more amazing mental health content to discuss. Richie wins Dr. Furey over (he is a swiftie?) and Jamie Lee Curtis playing their mother, Donna was an unexpected gift. We see depictions of borderline personality disorder, addiction and what can happen when complex families get together over the holidays. We also give you some tips on how to manage stressors that can arise when family gathers. Over all we give this season a "chef's kiss," we hope you enjoy! 

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Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And your DSM Five and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Welcome back. We're so excited to be talking about one of our, like, surprising I don't think anyone else was surprised, but we both found the Bear this year and watched both season one and now two. So if you haven't listened to our episode on the Bear season one, go check it out. It is uploaded to everywhere. You can find all of our other podcasts. But today we are so thrilled to be talking about the Bear season two and all of its intensity and intense emotions. Wow.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I feel nervous, like, even getting started.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, there's a lot to cover.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Oh, my gosh. I also just want to say, is this the best show ever? I feel like yes.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I like how the episodes are not all, like, hours. One of them was this season, which it was worth it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Oh, my God.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: But I just love the shorter episodes. I love all of the dynamic characters. I like the scenes, the sets. I like food. Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I want to be a chef. I realize it's, like, such a beautiful combination of art and science. Right. Like, the way they're cooking, and it's so creative. It's so beautiful the way everything's shot. The character development, especially this season, was astounding. It's so smartly written, and I just found myself at the end of it being, like, so sad. It was over and wanting more, and I was like, is this the best.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Show of all time? Maybe. I think so. I also just love a good family s show, like, on TV.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I love succession.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, not really you, but he doesn't really have any family. I guess that's the point. No.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. So are you saying you really like the interpersonal dynamics?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And obviously we would like that. Right? It's two shrinks. Obviously. That's what we're into. But I feel like this is the reason we wanted to start this podcast, is to just shine light when people get it so right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It's done so well. And I'm just like, how on earth are they tackling such intense topics and dynamics? Like, oh, my God, we'll get into the feast of the seven fishes. But, like, that family dynamic. Grief, suicide, addiction, depression, stress, like, guilt, grief, and then also in this season, resilience and growth.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So much growth.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like, achieving your dreams and fulfilling your potential that you didn't even know was there. And how being in the right environment with the right leader can really pull that out of people. And how Carmee was so good at that, despite going through so much struggle himself.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Whoa.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: How did they get it was so good.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So good. So I think we're going to get started by talking about some of the supporting characters before we really get into the meat with the Feast of the Seven Fishes and some of the more main characters. But I fell in love with Tina this season. What did you think about Tina and her arc?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I loved how her depiction in season one was just like things hadn't changed. Right. They're all kind of set in their ways. That's how we do things. Like pretty resistant to change.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yes, very resistant.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Which is something, again, I think everyone can relate to. When you're working at a job and initially something comes down the pipe and you're like, oh, I don't know how we could do this. No one wants it, really. Everyone's pushing back. Everyone gets grouchy.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Especially when it's like a younger, new hot show and you have all this experience and you're like, you don't know what you're talking about.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right. Yeah. So she was pushing back. We didn't really get a lot of her backstory.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: We didn't really get anyone's except for Carmen.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Her singing, it was like she goes and does karaoke. Beautiful voice. Stunning voice. Yeah. So then she goes to school. Yes. It's supposed to be her and Ibrahim. And she seems to really flourish and enjoy and kind of soak up all the information. And then her and Sydney have some beautiful moments when Know asks her several times to step up. And Tina seems really moved by that and appreciated. And she totally rises to the challenge and kicks butt. And in the later episodes, she's just rocking the kitchen.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: She totally rose to the occasion. I feel like her versus Ibrahim was such an interesting depiction. Like, they were both sort know, the old guard, you could say, and both kind of resistant to the change that was coming with Carmee and Sydney. But then you see Carmee's, like, investing in his staff by sending them to school, sending Marcus to Denmark. And she was so thrilled and she really lit up. She hugged him. Ibrahim, on the other hand, was really not into it. He was scared. He didn't go. But then he showed up at the end and I loved that they all welcomed him back with open and there.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Was still a place.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: There's still a place for him. How beautiful is you can always come home.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I liked when he was doing the Serve Safe thing online. I remember doing that. It's like, so boring. And I mean, it's good, notable information.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But it's just like, come on. Yeah, it's one of those certificates.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It's just so funny. They're like, oh, it's served like, we might not be able to open.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It was just so funny. But I just loved how Carme gave Tina his knife and then she tried to give it back to him and he's like, I didn't ask for it back. Just all of that just investment in your staff was so beautiful. He didn't just fire everyone and bring in people who are already trained. He believed in them. Right. And then I thought the scenes with her and Sydney were really beautiful. Especially as we got to understand Sydney's background more with her mom right. And how her mom died when she was four. And I was just like, oh, look at yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, I wonder what it was like for Sydney to initially be butting heads with Tina in season one and just kind of Sydney being brought on. And Sydney is very educated right. In Chef culture in Chef land. And Tina, I think is a wonderful chef, but just has been doing right the same thing. They've been making these more like sandwich shop type stuff. Sydney was more like of, I guess, an elevated places or had her own. And I think it was hard to watch like in season one, tina, I felt empathy for her being kind of challenged and struggling to kind of get on the ship and having a young woman kind of telling you that your mashed potatoes aren't good and to do it again. And you see that then in season two, Tina kind of checking, right? Like, do you want me to do it again? And then I think it's the second to last episode. Carmen's like no, it's perfect. Yeah. And that all is so meaningful to her. The knife is meaningful. That feedback is meaningful.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And it all started in season one. Remember when Tina was like falling behind and Sydney picked up the slack and then didn't rub it in her know.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: She could trust her.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right. It was just really beautiful and just so beautifully written. And to see their dynamic unfold, I thought was really beautiful. And I just am curious about that dynamic. Since Tina is older, maybe unconsciously, some kind of mother figure to her. But then Sydney has more of the authority in that workplace relationship. I just thought it was interesting.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. What did you think of like, reaction? What do you think that was coming.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Feel like I think he was scared. That's the only thing I can think of. He was saying he didn't want to wear a uniform. I also wonder about his background. Does he come from somewhere where uniforms signify something that's.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I think there was a really fast reference in season one to Carmi about him from someone else that he was in the military.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That's what I was wondering.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: A different country. And he had come mean we could only guess then from that what that means or how he is doing from that experience, but maybe yeah, uniform thing for sure.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: The uniform thing was, like, the real sticking point.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think he totally had a different reaction than Tina. Like, I don't want to go. Why do I have to do this? And it wasn't like, I'm too old.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: To learn new things.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And he doesn't look too old to learn new things, by the way. You're never too old to learn new things. But it was something about the uniform and conforming. I'm not sure it'd be really interesting to get more of that. But then we don't see him for a while, and then all of a sudden he shows back up and he's, like, excited to work, takeout window. And again, we already said it, but I just love that there was still a spot for him.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. And I liked how Tina and him had that conversation in the window right, where they were, like, talking about everyone in the third. That was that was sweet. And it was Tina really knowing, I think, how to approach him, knowing that she can't just say things directly, knowing that he needed the space to kind of not be able to talk about himself directly, and then he would come back. That was really just, like, good people.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right, right. And so, again, we're just seeing, like, really rise to the occasion. We also see Marcus rise to the occasion, which I never doubted he would. He was always so into the desserts, and I was like, even in season one, I was like, I had no idea so much went into making food and desserts. And it's like chemistry, really. But season two starts off with him at I believe it's his mother's bedside. Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So she's ill. I don't think we really understand or.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Learn what exactly seems serious.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It seems serious. It seems chronic, like it's been going on for a long time, but, like, one of those situations where it's always tenuous. Like it's been going on for a long time, but it could nosedive at any time. So it sounds like she has, like, this round the clock care.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: What did you think about kind of seeing him with his mom, seeing the dynamic between him and Sydney develop in the context of the stuff with Sydney and her mom? There's a lot of moms in season two. A lot of mom stuff.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: A lot. I think that Marcus, in a really nice way, has the capacity to be really empathetic and sweet with Sydney if they get there about her mom and then his mom. I think they just both have grief and loss in different ways about the mother figure in their life at different times, of course, and in different ways. But I think that that's really something to connect on if they again go there. I thought it was funny how I think it was between Carme and Sydney when she was like, yeah, my mom's dead, so we don't really have a relationship and it's hard when she's dead. Yeah. It was just such a normal thing. It's been a long time. It happened when she was four. Of course it still impacts her, but it's that using kind of comedy or to make Levity of a really tough situation, because you can see Carmen be like, kind of, I don't know how to handle this. And she's like, yeah, well, then they kind of chuckle. It's just something that I think a lot of people do.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think, again, like, so beautifully written because it's so normal, like, at Sydney's age or younger, for people to ask you, like, what about your parents? And they're assuming you still have them. Right. And it's really awkward to be on the receiving end when you don't have both of, like, well, how do I share this with the person without making them uncomfortable? Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And, like, having that uncomfortable sense. And she's like, don't say I'm sorry. We can just move on.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So I thought it was, like, a.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Really interesting way to bring that up.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And the acting I know we're going to say this over and over again, but I just want to point out, for Sydney, it felt so real, and obviously that's what acting should be. But she just nailed the head on making the awkwardness of, oh, someone's asking me this, and I don't know how to say yeah. It was just so yes. So good.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So good. And when Marcus asks her out at the end, how awkward. I was so happy when he did.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I thought they were totally vibing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like, when he was in Denmark, and they were FaceTiming and joking, and they kept pretending to like, I thought they were totally vibing. And then it totally threw her off. Yes.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: What do you think about that? I don't know, because I would say, based on the show, that she had.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: To have been picking up on, that.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: They were, like, silly at least.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So then for her to be like, did she shut it down? Because she was just so uncomfortable, nervous. You know what I mean? Or was it did it come out of left field? And she was just like, oh, I thought we were being friends. I don't know why it threw her. It seems like it, quote unquote, shouldn't have, but obviously it did for a then and then. Right. Kind of having that awkward kind of explosion right at the end where Marcus then yells at her, well, you're mad at me. And it was just you could tell.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: He was uncomfortable because he took his shot.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: He felt vulnerable.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. Do you think she's in love with Carmee? Do you think that's what it is?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I feel like it could go either way. Like, I could argue yes or no. I feel like yes, because she made that thing about Claire or seemed so awkward when she found out that Carmen was seeing someone. But then right I could argue 100% the other way, too.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It's just because it's taking attention away.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right. And then it was just like, why didn't you tell me? And then she's helping him, right. Kind of coaching him how to be a boyfriend or being like, don't be a jerk. You are dating, giving him that feedback. So I don't know. I think it could go either way in season three, and I wouldn't be surprised. I would like to know.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Okay. The scene of them fixing the table. Like in the last episode.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I thought they were going to kiss.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That's what I mean. That's what I mean is I can't tell the vibe.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: But then, because they didn't, I was like, oh, I just get it. Totally mean. Again, the writers are phenomenal. So I don't think so. But I think we're supposed to think that.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Exactly. I think we're supposed to feel, like, in limbo and not really be able to peg the Sydney love carme in a way that she idealizes him as a chef up to him, and he's really, again, brought her in, believed in her, got her that at the end. Was it from Tom Brown, the beautiful chef outfit? Is that why she loves, quote unquote, him?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right. Is it, like, romantic or more like ideal mentorship?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But there's something about it that feels romantic. Like, I did pick up on that jealousy with Claire, and it wasn't clear. Like, is that because she's into Carmen or because Claire's taking his attention away and she's, like, ****** about it and he's know, kind of ******** up. But that was where when Marcus asked her out, I was like, is it because she has feelings for Carmen, or.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Is it because she doesn't want to.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: End up like him by starting to date someone and getting distracted or dating in the workplace? But I would love them together because.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: They kind of did have a date, right, in season one when she made him food. I guess. I wouldn't call it a date. They had a dinner or lunch. I'm not sure which one together that seemed like it could go somewhere.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: They seem like they have a really nice connection, whether that's just friends or like, I would like to see it progress. I really like Marcus.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, me too. He's sweet. And I think Sydney and Marcus are just in our shrink opinions.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like a good so they're a good fit. Yeah, I think so.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Neither feel toxic. It doesn't feel like it would be an icky relationship.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Their personalities, like, balance each other. I don't know. I really am rooting for them. I was bummed she didn't take them up on it.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And then she's, like, throwing up, and I was like, is she pregnant?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I feel like she doesn't know just because there's no data right. To like she would have to have had sex with someone that we never saw, we didn't know about. I feel like she was just so anxious. So let's talk about right, like, physical manifestation of anxiety. Like nausea. Sometimes we do actually vomit from the nausea. Could sweat. I mean, they're all sweating because they're moving a million miles a minute, but they all, I would assume, are so nervous. There's so much on the line.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, exactly. Other common symptoms of anxiety would be, like your tingling of your fingers or legs. Your heartbeat going fast. Start feeling like it's skipping a beat. Your blood pressure going up. You might have a headache. You might lose your appetite. You might be really restless. Like, walking around a lot. Things like that. Yeah, some diarrhea.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I think we saw that from all of them. And fun little I was just, like, laughing throughout the whole season with Carmen. Just, like, having Tums and then FAK at one point is like also, he's, like, takes a sip, too. And I was like, first of all, TMI, I can relate. I am a pepto girly. I do drink it regularly. You know what if you need it? I was just, like, feeling very connected to Carme in those moments.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I was like, I feel you.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Anxiety really gets to your stomach. It totally does.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: You know why?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I'd love to know.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Nerd, please tell. So there's also serotonin receptors in your gut. And so that's why when you start an SSRI, which works on the serotonin receptors, the early side effects can be, like, some diarrhea, some upset stomach and stuff like that. So there's totally a connection there.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I didn't know that.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, I guess that's why they always say, right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, mind gut connection. Totally.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And I feel like in medicine, we're still uncovering that connection, but it totally makes sense.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Cool. Yeah. Didn't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Anyway, so we have a lot of new characters in this season two, so they all kind of come out in the Christmas episode. The fishes. All of the fishes happening. So is there anything else up until then that we want to talk about?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I guess the only other thing I wanted to touch on was the dynamic between Sydney and her dad. I thought that it was just so, again, well written. What's it called a broken record. But just seeing, like so she still lives with her dad. It sounds like she's tried a couple of things, and they haven't really worked. And I'm wondering now, seeing how nervous she was in the finale, if she gets in her own way, if she's going to be successful. But then her anxiety takes over, and she's like, I can't do this, and I quit. Or if she gets in over her head or things like that. But he's still supporting her. But you get the sense at this point, he's like, okay, I want to support you. And it sounds like you're putting a lot on the line. You're working really hard, you're not getting paid. Like, are you sure about this? Kind of thing, but he makes room for her reaction.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And tries to give her fatherly advice in a way that I feel like she hears and doesn't feel rejected by.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: No, I don't think she feels rejected. I think she puts so much pressure on herself because it sounds I mean, she's so concerned with what her dad thinks about the food. Right. And rightfully so. Of course, her parents proud, but I think based on their conversations throughout season two, it just seems like she really wants to be good for him, and it's not coming from him, though. It's not this pressure that's like, you have to be or you're out. Right. It's like he says, which I think is so sweet, like, you can stay here forever, but I want you to be happy and doing your thing. And then at the end, he's like, this is the thing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And I was like, so she's throwing up the dumpster, he's leaving, and he's like, Babe, baby, babe. It was so sweet. You could tell that's his little girl like, Are you okay? When he doesn't want to intrude. I thought he did such a good job of toeing that line with an adult child. I kept thinking, like, I could cry saying this. I hope I get to see my kids find their thing someday and get to be there, like, cheering them on. And I'm sure it's just so hard to have those conversations with your adult kid who's kind of floundering for a little bit, and it's like, of course you're going to flounder. Okay. So it's just so beautiful. There were no ultimatums. No, there was no, like, you got to get out.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: You get your **** together. And it didn't seem like she was taking advantage of him either. I think he knows that, and that's why he is more giving, I guess, with his resources. It's not like, oh, you're not doing anything, and you're living here. She's working so hard.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, exactly. And I love that he was there to see it and support her, and even in that spot, like, gave her space. No, definitely. Really beautiful. Loved it. Okay, everyone, take a deep breath. Drink your pepto, take your propranolol. We're going to get into maybe the best episode of TV of all time, episode six called Fishes, where we see the family dynamic in our face, and it's like, guest star, guest star, guest star.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Phenomenal acting, phenomenal writing, phenomenal cinematography. It was so good.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Oh, my God. I hope I doubt they did, but I hope they had a therapist on set to debrief with. Oh, my God, they were doing this. If you want one for season three, reach out. We're here. But holy ****.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So how did you feel watching it?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Let's start there. I felt like I was running a marathon.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: That's a great talking about it again.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: My heart rate, I can tell, is increasing. It was just chaotic. Yes. Chaotic, nervous, confused, excited because we were finally going to meet his mom. I always want to know about people's mom.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I felt like I was there. I felt like I was sitting at the table or in the kitchen just, like, observing it. And what's funny is, I would assume at least unless you have just really good luck, that most people listening and both of us have experienced chaos, right? So whether it's at work in a professional setting, whether it's with your own family, whether it's watching friend stuff, but being present for really intense and poor interpersonal skills and just that feeling you get. You're so uncomfortable, but you're paralyzed, you can't look away. You're feeling all of those kind of physical symptoms that we talked about before. It's just this feeling that I've had before in my life that I had watching this episode, which, again, the fact that they can elicit that through a screen, it just blows me.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Astounding. Astounding, astounding, astounding. I totally agree. And I feel like as you were saying that, I was thinking initially of all of the guests at the table, like, Frozen, when Mikey and Uncle Lee, played by Bob Odenkirk, were going at it and the tension was rising, and they're all just, like, trying to figure out how do you diffuse the situation? And you see everyone's trauma response kicking in, but then also just the know Carmee and, like, just interact with Donna, played by Jamie Lee Curtis, like, what a surprise. But perfect in the role. Just the way they try to navigate her is also the same thing you're talking about.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So the episode starts off with them outside, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And, like, Sugar smoking, real nervous, and.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I'm like, okay, what's going on? I really hadn't had any spoilers for this show, so I'm, like, super blind about it, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But I was like, oh, my God, isn't she pregnant?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And then, no, it's actually right. And then you see Mikey, right, kind of talking to her and saying all these things, and I was like, well, who are they talking about? And then it becomes clear that it's their mom. And then Carme comes out, and they're like, don't do anything. Don't ask her if she's don't. And I was like, I wonder what that's going to be about. And then it was like, when you finally see the kitchen, and I can't remember if it's through Carmen's eyes, I want to say it is. It's just, like, chaotic visual representation of their family dynamic. Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: 100%. 100%. Yes.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: There's sauce splattered on the walls.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: There's, like, a million timers all going.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Off, all startle response, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: She's, like, drinking and smoking up a wazoo.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: You're like, Are you going to set.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: The house on fire? It's so chaotic.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Sugar is so anxious, and I thought it was just so again, you saw everyone's family roles. So Mikey seems to be kind of, like, aligned, knows how to work with his mom. He's kind of like, whatever, this is how it is. There's probably a better way to explain it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Almost like learned helplessness. So that's a concept where back in the day, they did some experiment with mice or rats where they would basically drown them. Do you remember reading about this?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Probably in bachelor's level Psych, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Learning about depression. They did something where they would basically put mice in some tank of water and not give them a way out and just see how long till they gave up. What a terrible experiment. But it led to this concept of learned helplessness, where it's like when you're in a situation, an environment where you just lose hope that you're going to get out of it, you just sort of give up or accept, like, this is it. I kind of feel like with Mikey.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Maybe that was his know, which we can circle back to and talk a lot, you know, coping with it with substances. And you see then, like, kind of on the other end, continuing to poke the bear, for lack of a better word. She's asking, Are you okay? Can I do anything? Can I do anything? And you just see from the outside that is not working.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But don't you think don't you think this is my theory as to okay.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So if that didn't work, sugar would.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Have learned in childhood not to do it, but she's doing it as an adult, and she's the girl. There's always something with mother daughter relationships, especially when there's more siblings, and you're the only girl we saw this with. But, like, I would imagine that growing up, there would be times when that would work and that would lead to a connection with Donna, and she would calm down and maybe even express gratitude, like, in a overly familiar or, like, kind of inappropriately, like, parentified. Sugar become parentified and become, like, the caretaker of her mom. And I bet for Sugar, that felt really good. She got her mom's positive attention. She felt good. I bet her mom would say things like, you're such a good girl. I don't know what I'd do without. Like, I'm sure that happened intermittently enough where it would reinforce this behavior.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I bet it happened when they're alone, right? So, like, Donna has all these guests over. She's making the dinner. No one can help, right? Like, she then wants all this gratitude. She wants to be the center of attention. And so then Sugar challenging that and being in the parent role is like a big no. I'm in the one in charge. Exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Threatening her sense of superiority and competency.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And remember with Sugar partner, who brought, like, a casserole, and everyone's like, she throws it outside, and it's tuna, so it has, like, a distinct smell.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And he's like, It's a fish. He's like, this is the 8th fish.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: That was perfect.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But so I think that's what's going on with Sugar and. Then Carmi feels like the one who.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So, you know, I think if I picked one word, I'd say, like like, he kind of checks out. He's gone. And then I think it's interesting, and I would be curious to know because he was in New York for a while, but is that because he went with Cousin Michelle, played by know she asked her then, but he seemed really hesitant to or like, that wouldn't be know. He was immediately sucked back into the trauma right. Of his family, which I feel like happens.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So it seemed like I got the.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Sense that this was happening when he was in Denmark and he came home for the holiday, but I don't think people expected him to. It seemed like people were kind of surprised. You saw that tension between Mikey and Carmee. I get the sense Mikey's older than Carmel.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I think Carmen's the youngest.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So sugar's in the middle.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Maybe. I don't know why I think that, but I think that I could see that.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But again, you see that sort of competition, that tension. Like, it was nice of you to show up.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Big. Big.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Um, which is always, to me, so sad when there's, like, a sibling or someone who's done so, like, don't you just wish one of them had Sydney's dad to be like, good? Like, none of them get it right from Donna. We don't even know where their dad is. Right. But yeah. So Carmen comes back and it's like.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: The guilt tripping that he gets from his mom. To your point about just it was just so icky. Like, you're basically saying that you want him to stay here and live with you. She didn't say this exactly, but she's telling him that she wants him to be here with her and almost like, how dare you go and leave me. I need you.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I can't believe I'm not the son.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Exactly. Instead of, wow, you're so amazing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: God, in Michelin Star, even taking credit.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: For it could be, like, another way in that she doesn't take right. Like, you're my son and you did this wonderful thing. It's like no, it's like that other.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Because you left her. Yes. Yeah. So, Portia, if you had to diagnose Donna with something, what would it be?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Sounds like narcissism and maybe some borderline personality traits. Especially with the fear of abandonment. Fear of abandonment?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Substance use. Really?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. And especially I'm curious we can talk about this later, but I'm curious at the end when she shows up, is she sober? Has she gotten treatment? Is this a manipulative tactic to use on Sugar's husband? I don't know. Because it could have go either way. I thought it was really interesting, the insight that she had with I ruin everything, because I hear that a lot in substance use land. I hear that a lot in borderline land. So I don't know. Are you sober now and you have all this guilt, are you not? And you're just kind of, again, like, self sabotaging relationships. Instead of going in there and saying, I'm so proud of you, it's like, no, you don't show up, and you make it about you, but you have so much pain. She's obviously in so much pain.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Well, and I think that speaks to what you've said before, is I feel like she leans more in the borderline personality realm than the narcissism realm. But I think there's narcissistic flavors there. But I think with this fear of abandonment, just with the way everyone's walking on eggshells, her quick light switch flip of a mood at the very end when she drove her car into the house.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I mean, just like the self harming.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: In that way, the manipulative way of just like, screaming at everyone and then, oh, my God. It was just shocking.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I wonder if she expected them to come after her. Right. So if I'm thinking of someone who has Borderline who's incredibly in an intense emotional state this is not like your day to day. You're doing okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think she was at that moment, right. She felt incredibly devalued, put down. So someone with these traits can't tolerate that. So she feels like annihilated. And then I think she was trying to commit suicide or a suicidal gesture.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I feel like gesture, if I'm being really picky.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Because I guess she seemed very intoxicated.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes, exactly. So, like, also, was it a mistake? Did you mean to reverse? Did you mean to hit as far as this rage, we have no idea. But how traumatizing. So I'm wondering, right. Like, if Carme had run after her.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: If he did, Mikey did. He was the one who was like, mom. Mom. I think, if I remember correctly, when the car crashed.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So I'm saying before that, right? Like, as she leaves the table, I'm wondering if someone had then pursued her.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: She would have been wanting exactly.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And because she didn't get it, she then had made this big gesture to get everyone's attention back.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And that is very much in line with borderline personality disorder behaviors. Right. Just instigating.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. I think my knee jerk reaction with all TV characters is always like, no, they are narcissists traits, for sure. But I don't know why I didn't say that first. She displays many traits of Borderline, especially when someone is in a really intensive emotional state.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yes. And just that all the toxic dynamic, the splitting, the pitting one against the other, the manipulative tactics, the rage, the suicidal gestures, all of it is just.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And it's like you keep digging your own hole. And I think when someone's watching without any knowledge of borderline or I don't know, I guess understanding of it, it can be so frustrating. It's like she keeps making things worse. Right. Like, over and over and over again. It's like she keeps pushing everyone far away. Why can't she just come in and be like, you know what it's like. Because she's not capable of it. In that moment, she's so hurt. She feels so, like you said before, like annihilated. So there's no coming back. She can't see that. She could just dot, dot, dot, right. Come into the restaurant. Sam. Sorry.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: She could just because that would taking accountability. Exactly. Being able to hold on to the fact that she has good and bad within her. And people with borderline personality disorder really struggle to hold on to two opposing feelings, two opposing beliefs or views at the same time, especially about themselves. Right? They can't tolerate feeling bad. That's why they project it out on other people. That's why they act out and become the victim or become the martyr or just leave, abandon situations where there's been something that they regret.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So much self loathing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So much self loathing. But it keeps hurting everyone. And I thought like, that I was shocked. She showed up at the end to the restaurant.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Maybe in an internal right. I could only imagine what was going on in her head. Part curiosity, part wanting to be a part of it, wanting to be included, wanting to not feel abandoned. But at the same time, maybe the fear that they would reject you, the fear that it would be uncomfortable, the fear that someone would make a comment. And then you could just see the hurt when Sugar's husband accidentally said that Sugar is pregnant and she didn't know. Right. And then she's just like, flustered. But again, she's going to internalize that as right, I'm not important enough to know this. I'm an abandoned life. They're abandoning me, I'm sure. Also, the self loathing of like, they don't love me, they don't want me. I'm so bad.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But I think often with people who struggle with Bpd, it's very hard to tolerate that amount of self loathing. Sometimes totally for a little bit of time. I think we see displayed in the finale where she's showing up and thinking about going in. But to actually go in would involve reckoning with all the harm you've caused and sort of accepting it and taking some accountability, which I don't think she's able to do because know her psychological limitations so often. Then you project it onto other people, so it turns into, well, Sugar didn't tell me. Well, Carmi didn't invite me. Like, it's their fault they're leaving me. And this is the classic dance we see with Bpd. There's even a very good book out there called I Hate You. Don't leave me. Is that push and pull, that seeking of love or help or attention, then rejecting it. And so she leaves or rejects them before they can reject her.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And she wants I thought it was really interesting and important that they included it in the writing with her repeatedly asking him to tell her it's okay, right, to leave. She's like, you need to tell me it's okay. You need to tell me it's okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Because then she puts it on exactly that he's the one.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: He said, it's okay. And she can kind of, like, move past the fact that she chose to leave, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: He said, I leave. Can't even hold on to that accountability. Amazing writing. And again, I just feel like the only way you get this so right is if you have lived experience, right? So to the writers, God bless you. I hope you're doing okay. And I just wonder, is it healing to create art like this that resonates with so many people and then other people, I'm sure, watch it and recognize their own family members or their own toxic dynamics. And I got to believe you feel less alone, right. When you're like, oh, my God, I'm not the only one who lives through stuff like this, so maybe it isn't me.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Some of the commentary that this episode received was like, it not sugar coating. And there are some movies that make holidays wildly stressful and ridiculous with crazy family dynamics. Even the movie, I think it's like four Christmases, right? And so there are other ones out there. But some of the commentary on this specific episode was like, this does happen, right? If you have a dysfunctional family, which a lot of people do, the holidays are so intense and stressful and getting everyone together when most of the people have poor communication skills and these intense feelings and they don't know how to handle them, and they're adults and there's no accountability, there's no self awareness.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: There's a lot of substance.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: There's drinking. Exactly. It's just like this recipe for disaster.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yes, exactly. And we see the disaster play out, and it's so true. And I feel like in situations like this where everyone comes back to home.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It'S like everyone just fulfills their roles again.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And I thought we saw that really well with the three siblings and all the other supporting characters. And I'm sure something that you talk about with your patients like I do, especially around holidays. It's interesting that this episode is going to come out during the holiday season is like, setting boundaries for yourself and really being thoughtful about like, is it in my best interest to go home? What's it going to be like?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Can I bring someone?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Sometimes in a hotel, it's really important to think about. Oh, my God. But Jamie Lee Curtis. Wow.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I mean, the cast was just like, phenomenal.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And then Sarah Paulson cousin Michelle. Then we have John Mulaney playing Stevie, Michelle's partner. That was just such he's such like a non fit. Right? But he loves going the blessing he gave trying to deescalate Mikey.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: He did such a good job at first, and then it was like Uncle Lee made the comment, I think, about the mom, which again, I felt like was also an attempt to acknowledge what everyone is thinking and feeling and validate it and say okay, well, now that's over. And that just escalated. Like, why do you think that was?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I felt like it was in Mikey's mind, like, a slight to. I mean, you could have taken it either way. I think if you were secure and calm and not traumatized by what happened, not drinking, not high, it could have come across as like, okay, this, like, the healing moment. But I think you could totally look at it the other way because of how he's been acting the rest of the night. He was antagonizing Mikey. Yeah. And just, like, doing unnecessary things.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Is he her brother?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: The uncles and the cousins. It gets very confusing. But also, I think that displayed, like, even though Mikey in a lot of ways is really checked out, that's still his mom, and there's always a tie to your totally. Even when they're really awful parents, that's still your mom. And you can get very defensive, and I'm sure there's more backstory, like, where is their dad? What happened? If she's the parent who stayed? Even if she's so dysfunctional to kids, like, well, you stayed. You at least love me enough. Totally stay. So I could see him just like, that was it. And they'd already been at each other's throats, and he's high, and, like, I also thought it just displayed a really awful way to shame someone struggling with substance use. You're not of your whole freaking family. It made me so upset.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It just felt like, I can empathize with being around someone who is struggling with a substance use disorder. That's one of the hardest things to do. Absolutely.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: 100%.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And some of the things that Uncle.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Lee was doing just felt so unnecessary.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, why did you interrupt the story to tell Mikey and everyone, well, we've heard this a million times, and then see the end of it. Why couldn't you have just left the room?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Just leave it alone.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right. Like, you know, he's using, so what does that mean? People, when they're using, are not making their best choices. They're not really using good communication skills or can sit with things. They're going to react. So it's like, Why were you doing that? I know you've got to have known that that would have happened. So that's where, I'm, like, it felt even with the comment he made after the dinner or after Donna had that explosion, was like, what are you like, just sit there for a moment. It was weird. And just felt like, in that scenario, unhelpful.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. And I got to feel like or got to think he just has so much anger at my at everyone, that it's like he's just, like, fed up, and it's not really clear why. I wonder if we'll learn why at some point, but then don't go.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes. If he's in therapy with me, it'd be like, okay, this sounds really stressful and really hard for you, so what would it be like to not go? What would it be like to go to someone else's family holiday for that day or do something else? What would it be like to go for an hour?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yes, exactly. And I always will tell my patient, because usually the first thing they say is like, oh, my God, that'll be so hard. I can't do it. And I always say, well, it's going.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: To be hard either way.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It's going to be hard to just go and follow the same old routines, same old patterns. Like, that's this version of hard. This other version of hard. Listening to your instincts, respecting your own limits, that'll be hard, too. Which hard do you want to choose? And do you want to try this new version and see how it right? But so hard.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So hard.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I know. Last time I said I hated Richie.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Oh, my gosh. I know. I was thinking about you.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I have totally flipped. Yes, of course love him. Like, I've totally flipped, and I love him. And I was so sad to see him so happy in this episode with Tiffany, that was Anderson. And I'm like, what happened? How did it break down?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: He's still so in love with Know, inviting her to the Taylor Swift concert. What's?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: The Taylor Swift song?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Oh, my God. I know. I was like, Is that love story?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It can't be.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And then I was like, oh, my God, it is.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And he's just, like, jamming out.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I was just like, this is so, like, everything about and I liked Richie season one, because I felt sorry for him. He wasn't doing things that I enjoyed, but I just felt really sorry for him. And this like, I was so proud of him. I got teary, like, a couple times.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: With was when he was at the fancy restaurant and really just stepped up. Was wearing his to be there.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It's like he was finally seen, and not in this icky family dynamic where he's like, you know, they know how to do it. Exactly. He was seen as like, no, you're a person who matters and who has a place here, and you're important. Right. And we like you. Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And he saw himself. He finally saw his own self worth. And I loved when he came back, and he just kept saying, I wear suits now.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I wear suits. Richie, you look like a million bucks.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I know.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So for the third person asks him, right? Like, what are you wearing a suit? What are you wearing a suit for? And then to someone, maybe it was FAK. He was like, Because I feel better about myself. And I was like, wow. Also, you're, like, identifying emotions. You're connecting with yourself. You know that this makes you feel better, and you're doing it. Wow.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And again, back with the uniform, the suit.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like with Ibrahim, how he was so turned off by it. Now Richie's really embracing Chef coat.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: There's so much because wearing it's so funny that you say that. Just thought of it. He has like an orange T shirt on the opening night because know he's doing the but like, everyone else has the know that says or they have the really nice chef coat or they're wearing a really nice suit, which is so adorable. I love when Richie exactly is consoling him because he's scared. Because Richie is handling right. I don't know what that job is called. It seems like the most stressful job I've ever is that like a yes? Yeah. I've never worked in a restaurant where that's a thing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, you make sure all the plates I only know because my husband did this for a while. But you make sure all the plates are right. They look right. They get there. I don't know if that's expo or.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: If just like calling out these things.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And that girl, remember he was so impressed by her and everything. But yeah, Richie consoling FAK when he needed him in the front and back. It's just like you see the trickle down of Karmi believing in people trickling down. And it's just like beautiful. It's so beautiful. And I totally flipped on Richie.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I'm worried about him. And after we say this, we can kind of segue into Carme throughout the show. But I was like, oh, what's going to happen in season three after Carmen says all of those horrible things to Richie when Carme's in the walk in? Like, Richie seems okay because he keeps saying, well, I love you. Well, I love you. Well, I love you. As Carme is saying, like, you're a leech.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: F you.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: F you. I hate you. F you. Like, you have no one, your daughter, all these things. And Richie. Just saying. I love you.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I'm going to cry. But also beautiful because I feel like Richie has probably been in that place and said stuff like that to people when he's in so much pain to push them away. And he knows it's almost like Richie knows what Carmen he's doing.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: His head. He now is this like all of a sudden he's gone through a lot.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I feel like he can stand there and tolerate it because he knows that's not what he really means. He's trying to push me away. He needs to know I'm here. And it's like, how do you get there? How do you get there so fast?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It was incredible.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Incredible.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I freaking love Richie. No words. Totally. I loved watching him, his moments. I definitely teared up that whole episode.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yes. Yeah. I just loved seeing him step into his power and believe in it.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It was like a 35 minutes episode that was so incredibly done. Even that one, right? So we've been talking about Fishes forks from the beginning of the episode to the end. Even the imagery of him waking up earlier and earlier and earlier and getting up quicker and doing his hair, it was like those tiny little things was so good.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: This is so good. And it's just like, I want everyone to feel that pride. Right. And it's just like, if Richie can get there, anyone can get right. Like, I just feel like we learned a little bit about his backstory.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I don't know why they separated. That wasn't given.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Sure. I'm hopeful we'll find out.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Because they seem so happy. Again, I have to imagine Richie is kind of like a milder version of Donna, maybe, where you not in like I don't think he meets criteria for Bpd, but I think he self sabotages.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So I could based on low self esteem exactly. And just being like, I wonder if he had Add that went undiagnosed as a kid and developed a lot of anxiety about that and just fell into like, well, I'm not good enough. I'm never going to achieve, so this is all I'm good for. And then when he gets close to having good things, sabotages it.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And some dad was in the army. I'm using a really generalized stereotype, but really maybe really strict, really demanding, dismissive, not loving. And again, maybe he was. But that's a trope. Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That is a you're moving a you know, attachments to friends and stuff are getting disrupted very often. So again, I think maybe he had security and stability with Tiffany, and then it was like too much. Yeah, he didn't deserve it or something like that. I kind of want them to get back together.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I know. Because you could tell he was over. And then she said, I love you. Right. Getting off the phone when she told him that she was engaged.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And she probably does love him, but.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Knows that she at least that version of Richie isn't good for her, which.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Is like I could see him having had a substance use problem. Maybe she went to Al Anon and started setting boundaries and had to say, can't do this. Oh, but I love him now.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So basically, I totally flipped.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, I'm glad you did. I was thinking about you.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Oh, my God. When he's jamming out to Taylor Swift.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I was thinking about you were like, yeah, of course it is. It is the love god, Richie. Yeah. Notable. So Carmee carme has some big, interesting factoids about his past. We see the development with Claire. We see the ultimate breakdown at the just it was fascinating.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It was so good. I'm glad we left him for the end, because there's so much to talk about. I just really want to give him a hug in that freezer. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: First of all, you're, like, cold. So cold.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: You're so cold.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: They never showed that, you know what I mean? They didn't get, like, a shot. Oh, like the cold air coming out of the vent or whatever. So I wasn't even thinking it for a while. It's just like the chaos. He's missing the service. He's doing all this stuff. But imagine they're freezing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: There's, like, ice everywhere. They're very cold. I was like, how long has he been in here? Is he going to get hypothermia? But before we get to him stuck in the freezer, tell me more about your reaction to him over the season and how we see his character developing and him falling in love.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So I thought it was really interesting, even just the little bits that we got. So learning that he had never been to a party ever, I was like, he seems really almost hyper focused, wise, gets into something. Right. He was in chef school. That's it. There was no partying. There was nothing. He became a little obsessive about it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And it's like, do you think it's because he likes it, or was it his ticket out of dysfunction?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Either or both.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, it's like, that's all he did.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, no girlfriends, no history. He's so kind of like one track minded. One track minded. Is that a coping skill? Right. So in order to not let the chaos in, even that clip, which I think was from season one, which we saw again in the freezer scene, when Joe McHale's, joel McHale role or boss chef, is just, like, dehumanizing him and saying these horrible things to him. It's like, how did he get through that? Did Mikey do that to him? Did Donna do that to him?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Oh, I'm sure Donna did that to him. I feel like he is a great example of an avoidant attachment. Like, knocked it on the head.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think all along, Donna, I'm sure, talked to him the same way Joel McHale's character did, and he's, like, dissociated. He has maintained an emotional distance and avoidance to avoid so getting hurt.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And just focusing on your career again. But I think he's just wanting his mom's love and approval by getting the Michelin star. But then he will never get it because it's not about her.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So he's just doomed, like the poor guy.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And he almost can't handle it. Having an emotional relationship with someone else. First of all, this is a wildly stressful time. Right. Like, he's opening a restaurant. There's so much pressure there's, so much.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Early, so much money.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: True. But I feel like he internalizes that and to be like, see, I can't do this. I can't see someone. Yes. It's bad things. Like, this is a wildly stressful time. You could have forgotten the fridge guy anyway, right. I think Claire is good for him.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I totally do. And I think of anyone who would understand how much work and commitment and time it's taking. It's a resident physician who's, like, living.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: At the hospital for their career.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think of anyone who could understand it would be someone like her. I don't get the sense she was feeling, like, slighted or jealous or anything like that. Maybe because he had been making time for her, but I feel like she'd understand. I don't think he can imagine someone else, perhaps especially a woman, perhaps especially a romantic partner, could understand that he has his own needs, and that's okay, right? Because his mom has never, ever demonstrated that that was okay. So I don't think he knows how to do, like, even with friends or even with things like that. I don't think he knows how to do that. But I think he's capable of learning.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I think he's capable. I thought it was interesting, the scene with I think it was him and Sydney when she's asking him, like, well, how much do you love her? And he's like, well, I love her a lot. And she's like, okay, then you should be her boyfriend. You love her. Usually I don't know. Sometimes people date before love, right? No, you love her. You've also liked her for years, it seems like. So it seemed like almost one of the I would say more rare cases where it's like the guy is kind of not getting it. I think it's not because he is not that if he wanted to, he would. Right. I think he just has no awareness that you guys are dating and you love her and you should be together. It's like that never even crossed his mind that, oh, I should ask her out. He's like, how do I ask her out? Well, what does that look like? What does that mean? He has no idea.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: No idea. And I think he's so scared of that because even when they bump into each other, he gives her a fake number.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I love that she called him on it, like, multiple times. She was like, why did and finally he tells her, why did you give me a fake number?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, that makes me a little nervous, because I think with someone like him, you need to go really slow and respect his boundaries, and that's going to be hard for him to open up. And so I just hope Claire could be patient with that and not intrusive, which I think would feel more like his mom. It broke my heart when she rushed to the freezer and heard everything he said, and then he heard her voicemail.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: But I really because the voicemail was.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So like you even see in that scene, he throws the phone down.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: He can't take it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It's too much for him. That's what I mean, is I feel like you have to tread a little lighter. Like, it's getting really intense really fast, it seems like. Again, I feel like the timeline is.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, over several months, so it's not.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like in a week. But for him, someone who's never had a relationship, never had friends or anything, it's going to feel like a lot. And so I just am really curious to see how that all plays out. But I feel like, yeah, he just doesn't know how to. Have relationships because they've been so hurtful in the past.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I don't think he would looking maybe to season three. I think he would need a lot of pushing, which could be good or bad, to apologize to her. Richie, they initiated that fight in the cooler because he's like, what did you do? Like, you finally had something good.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And he kept saying to him, like, you can have something like you're you deserve good. You can have good. And I feel like Carme couldn't even hear that. So he rages against him, and hugely. But that's what he has. That was such a good character.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Back to the fishes episode. Or to Donna specifically.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But Richie doesn't leave. I know. Richie stays and keeps saying, I love you.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I know. Oh, my God, I'm going to cry.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I know.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I could cry.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I know.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It's been a long week. I'm a little overtired, so the emotions are free.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But it's also so beautiful, though, because he's in so much pain. He's so stressed out. You can tell Carmen is just beating himself up.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Oh, my it's a self loathing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So huge. And Richie's just like, dude, we got it. We love you.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And they do.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: They have it because of him. He has instilled this confidence in them that is so beautiful, and I just want him to be able to find that for himself and find some balance, and I just really want that for him.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: The little bit lighter moment in that final episode I was just laughing at was when one of the chefs is out there doing math. Oh, my know.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And Marcus is like, I think I.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Have to fire you. Yeah, I'm going to go ask. And then he's talking, and they kind of repair him. And Sydney, in that moment, he's like, I know things are weird, but this is happening. And she's like, that's wild. He's like, I know. I literally said that's wild. And then she's like, yeah, I think you let him go. And it's just such a funny moment. They're like, yeah, right. Yeah, we should fire him. And then there's like, chef, whatever's, 86. And then they're like, yes, chef. Moving on.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: All the guest chefs. I love that Sydney's dad would say, good job, Chef. It's just so nice. I also love that the one doing the meth was like, what?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Over? Yeah, but maybe not in other restaurants that he's worked in, right? We also saw some talk. I was just kind of, like, thinking that we had mentioned, I think talking about the class of drugs with Ambien included. So when Carmen and Claire are at the party in an earlier episode, and that one guy who ends up getting arrested is like, yeah, I do a lot of ambient and steal self.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Again, there is documented cases. Like, there's, like, peer reviewed scientific literature about ambient induced parasomnias that means, like, sleepwalking stuff. Like, when you're moving and doing stuff in your sleep so you don't realize you're doing it. Like eating, having sex. I think there have been some cases of assault.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: What reminded me of the movie name that we talked about this? Side Effects. Side effects? Yes. We talk about more about that in Side Effects. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So go check out that episode. Well, Portia, anything to wrap up this episode?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: No. I can't believe I was sleeping on the show. I already said this for season one, but this was probably the best show season for me in 2023. I loved it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I did too.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I would say a close second for me was you, the part one and part two, I think season four, just because I really liked that show.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But in succession.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Wow. This one takes the cake.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I found myself saying, is this the greatest show of all time? Is this my favorite show?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: There's something about and this is a compliment. There's something about Italian families on TV. Sopranos. Sopranos. There's food, there's accent. And it just makes for excellent television. Excellent.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And like, a lot of the men are handsome, so it doesn't hurt. Yeah. All right, well, thanks for listening to this awesome episode. We cannot wait for season three to come out whenever it does with all the strikes, and we hope you catch us next time. Follow us on Analyze scripts. Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. And please, please, if you're listening, enjoying our content. The best way to support us is to rate, review, subscribe and share with your friends. All right, see you next Monday.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: You don't.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. In this episode, we comment on the block buster hit featuring the iconic Taylor Swift in her most recent tour. As we go through the Eras we comment on why the movie was so emotional for us and others. Seeing women, and some men, of all ages singing, smiling and dancing together was magic. Listen to us analyze some of her songs from the tour such as "Anti-Hero" and "All Too Well" (the 10 minute version) as she describes such common feelings and emotions that Swifties of all ages relate to.  Her lyrics transcend generations and bring us all together at a time when we could all use a little "Peace." We hope you enjoy! 

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Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Where two shrinks analyze the depiction of.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And your DSM Five and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Welcome.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: We're so excited today. This is our first video, so hopefully it's not like a garbage can dumpster fire, but we'll see.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, we're really excited to be I think Portia, like, our tech has come a really long way in just when did we start recording? I think. Was it January or February?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I want to say end of January.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: End of January. So, like, less than a year. And, like, look at us go.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I've got the lighting, some props. You have some props that may be giving hints today about what we're going to be talking about.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Some paraphernalia here.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Look at that.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Very excited. I'm going to let you intro it because I know you are such a swiftie.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So today we're going to be talking about the era's tour movie, which we thought would be just such a cool idea. So typically. Right. We're talking about, like, fiction, movies, TV shows, stuff like that. But we had to cover the Era's tour movie about the tour. Neither of us have seen the tour yet. I think it was a lot, and neither of us had the foresight to see that. You had to log in right, like, the second and buy the tickets because you couldn't afford them if you wanted to buy them after the fact.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. I don't think we should be super hard on ourselves because I think it was impossible for almost anyone to get a ticket.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I do think this was a really nice way for everyone to get to see it who hasn't been able to go. And I kind of enjoyed it. I kind of enjoyed this way.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It was incredible.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, I told you. I think we should just start there.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I felt like I had a religious conversion, honestly. I was like, whoa.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So tell me about when you went.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Have you seen it more than one time?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I've seen it twice. I saw it the first time with my husband. We went on a very busy weekend. It was my sister in law's wedding. I officiated the wedding. So there was, like, event dinner, breakfast, whatever. And then that night, it was like, we're going to the Arrows tour movie. I don't care how tired you are. I don't care that it's Sunday night. Like, we're going. So I saw it with him, and it was amazing. And I do have a little story to tell tickets, like, when it came out. And so it said that the Era's tour would be only showing in AMC movie theaters. Right? I remember I searched AMC in the movie theaters when I got in, right? It was like, you're in the waiting room. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm getting tickets. This feels amazing. And so I bought them kind of far away because we have movie theaters closer to us, but they're not the AMC ones are not.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So I bought two sets of tickets. So I had four tickets, like two different nights. And I did not go to either of those. I didn't end up selling them. I just last minute bought closer tickets. That's like a difference of like an hour, ten minutes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, it was a cost benefit analysis.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Return the tickets. I have to say that's annoying that there were no refunds.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I know. Because I think someone else would have liked them. Like, they were early the weekend they came out. So I don't know. I just couldn't be bothered again. It was really stressful. So I've bought ticket sets to four, and I've gone to two and they've all passed. So it's not like I could do anything about that. But my husband was, like, laughing by the time because he was like, we spent really a fraction of what the.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Real yes, that's the thing. I bought two sets, and then I did end up selling one of them. I was able to resale them for like $5 less than I bought them for. But I knew someone would be able to buy them because I went with my daughter who's about to turn five. I can't believe it, but she has become a little swifty, like, in the past six months. It started over the summer when she was at camp. I picked her up from camp and she was like, mom, do you know who Taylor Swift is? And I was, you know and then whenever we'd hear a song on the radio, she'd be like, this is Taylor Swift. And I was like, yeah, it's so cute the way she says her know, just in her little girl voice. And then one day I picked her up and a counselor, I think, had shown them some sort of video, whether it was a concert video, music video, but she was so cute. She got in the car and she was like, mom, I saw Taylor Swift today. And she was dancing, and she had microphone and she was singing. She had never crossed her mind that you could do all those things. And in my head, I was like and she plays instruments. Like, wait till you see. Um, and so then she's really gotten into Taylor Swift. And it's so funny because she only knows her new songs, like the karma one, she know. But if like, Love Story comes on the radio and I'm like, oh, this is Taylor Swift, she's like, no, it's not. What are you talking about? But anyway, so I took her and we had like a little Halloween event at their school beforehand. So she was like in her Halloween costume. It was just me and her, and it was like the time of my life. It was so great. She had so much fun. We got the popcorn and was just it was so cool because I felt like I'm there with my daughter, but then we're surrounded by all these women. It reminded me of when we went to see Barbie, how it was just experience and a very female experience. So there were other moms with their older daughters, like tween teens. Then there were like teenagers, early 20s, who were there by themselves, but as a group, all dressed up. There were all these friendship bracelets. A girl gave my daughter a friendship bracelet, which was that's so sweet, cute. And my daughter kept wanting to get up and go dance with the big girls. So then we'd go, like, in the back where all the older girls are dancing, and they all were, like, filming themselves, I guess, for their social media, but it was just so pure and adorable and sweet and it was just so fun. I had so much fun with her, and I was impressed. There were times where she was getting like she wanted to go during the slower sets, but then luckily it would pick up. It was like 1989, and then we would get back into it. But it was just so fun. It was so fun.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So when I went, I got a lot, like, teary eyed multiple times because there's definitely people of all ages, right? Like the little kiddos I didn't see, like well, actually, the second time I went, there was really young ones there, probably around your daughter's age and then older, right? So like forty s, fifty s, teens my age, whatever. And women of every age were there singing everything, laughing and just like, loving life, and it was just like so beautiful. So the first time I saw it was definitely more hyped, right? Like, people were singing and dancing and that was great and awesome. And then the second time I saw it, I went with my friend and we were sitting in between this group of women who are in their sixty s and seventy s, and it was like quieter, and I really appreciated that because then the slow songs I just was like weeping during and they were so into it. I forget which one it was. I think it was the song. It was after All Too Well, and then one of the more sexy ones, they were like, Whoa. Like screaming and clapping, and I was like, wow, okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I know, I just thought also in the movie. Taylor is having so much fun. You can just tell she is just like loving what she's doing. And I was like, if only we could all feel that way with our I just it was so cool to see her loving it so much. And I just thought it was so cool to I like how she didn't do it chronologically. It seemed like it wasn't chronological right. In terms of which era she was doing. It wasn't like we're going to start at the beginning and go till the present. And I liked that because you got to see all these different eras of her life and just see how she's grown up but in this mishmashed way, right? From love story to the sexy chairs to the man to everything. It was so cool. And the dancing was great. I loved the diversity of her dancers from body type, gender, race, skin color, everything. It was awesome. And that she just highlighted them all. I loved all of the intense walking with all of it. I was like, I want to walk.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I Know.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: What if you imagine you come out to get your patient? Never. But it reminded me back of our dancing days with doing like jazz walk off the floor. I just missed that walk.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Her Shoes. I love shoes. So they're all custom louboutins red bottoms. The boots, I was like, oh, the pink ones, the blue ones, the midnight blue ones. They were stunning. And I wanted to know and then she had loafers that were louboutins and like a new shoe leather. Right. Nice. They typically hurt. Obviously hers were broken in. Obviously they were like and obviously shelted.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like butter, I'd imagine.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right form to her foot. And I was like, how can I get a pair? Obviously not one that she wore, because that would be insanely expensive. But I just want one of them so badly. And we'll see.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: We'll See. If anyone else has a hookup, let us know.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So the eras were in order of. We started with Lover and then there was Fearless evermore Reputation. Speak now. Red Folklore, 1989. Then the acoustic set, which we got in the movie. You're on your own, kid. And then our song. And then ended with midnights. What did you think about the order? You said that you liked that it wasn't right. Like from debut on?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I did. Because I think I like that they could intersperse the slower sets and then the hits and then some slower stuff. And I think since I haven't historically been, like, a grade A swifty, I just like her music. But I'm not out there. There would be these songs that I hadn't heard before. I'm ashamed to admit maybe, but I was like, oh, that's lavender haze. Or hearing the songs or the albums that maybe I didn't listen to. And then the hits would come next. Or, like, the more upbeat songs, I guess.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So I liked it. But what about you?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I really loved it. I think it helped me find more songs that I have been really liking of hers. I really like Midnight's a lot. I think I knew her debut album, right? Like the classic, like, our song, her Country More album. And then I don't think I was really in it for fearless and speak now. So I kind of bopped back in after those two. And then I ended up seeing which was, yeah, I knew Red because that was when I turned 22. So that was very fitting. Taylor is one year older than me, so talking about why people feel so close with her is that she's been making music forever. And it's always been luckily for me, which I feel like is a gift. So on brand for what I'm going through and high school. Right. Like, growing up, love, heartbreak into more now. I think some of the slow songs, like, are adult. Yes. They don't have to be, but just some of the feelings and experiences are so fitting now that it's just like.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But even though from the beginning, I feel like they were so fitting. Right. So she said it spans 17 years, which is astounding. Right? And so she was like 15 writing this stuff. And I was hoping we would touch on this because I think clearly her music and just like, her as a person resonates with the masses internationally. Right. And I find that really fascinating because on the one hand, just stereotypically, she is a privileged, skinny, white blonde girl who's pretty. Right. So on one hand, I feel like we could all really hate her. Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I think people do, but not I.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But do you know what I mean? On the one hand, she kind of was very blessed coming from a supportive family that had a lot of money, who could afford to chase her dreams with her, could afford to move to Nashville, all of that stuff. I feel like you could argue, like, she's starting off with a huge privilege in that way. I don't think you can say that. That's not true. And even if you go back to her early songs, the songwriting and the emotion behind it is amazing. And I really feel like she's like a savant in terms of music and songwriting in particular. And even the way she sings the songs, like the inflections in her voice when she's singing versus kind of talking, the tone of her voice, the way she delivers it. For me, I think it's like all of that together that resonates with everyone. And I just think, what a gift. I think it started all the way back with Wasn't Teardrops on My Guitar her song?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: All the way back with that. To our song to Love story. Like the early ones. They speak to you. Right. And I spend so much of my professional life helping adults find words to describe their feelings. That, to me, it's, like, amazing that a 1415 year old could capture that in a beautiful way. Not just, like, acoustically beautiful, but the words she's saying and the message conveying. Right. It's astounding. And then I think just seeing this movie tour and you see her evolution and how her songwriting all the way to the presenting has gotten so much more complex and evolved and gritty. It's amazing. I'm so amazed.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. I think her lyrics are just, like, why she's so amazing and well liked and well received. Because I think everyone has experienced everything that she talks about. But the way that she describes it is so it makes you feel, like, seen, I guess I'd say, right? It makes it really resonate with you. It makes it feel like there are words for it. It's like, even if it wasn't a football player, it's still someone in high school who didn't like you back when you really liked.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think it's so funny to me that it's like, she is the it girl now. So the fact that this It girl, even back then, skinny, pretty, blonde, rich girl, felt like an outsider, it's just interesting. But I think it speaks to, like, we all feel like that no matter what no matter what your background is, no matter what you look like, no matter what privilege you have or you don't, we all feel like that at different times and right. I think she just really speaks to it. And she grew up speaking to her reputation. I love the Reputation album. I love 1989. But those grittier songs about her reputation or about how she handles the scrutiny, oh, my God, so good. And then it's so catchy. Right? It's not just like, the lyrics are great. They just get in your head. Like, it's so catchy. You can't I know. It's amazing.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. It's hard to get some of them out. I'm not a fan of shake it off. Yeah. It's just not where I am right now. I'm more like Folklore Evermore, some midnights vibe. And I liked Shake It Off when it came out, but it's like a lot of people were like, oh, there's like, other songs from that album that you could have put on there that are better. I think Shake It Off, though, is like a radio hit, right? It's, like, fun to dance to. Everybody likes it. It's so catchy to the point where it's like, can I shake off shake It Off?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I was sad that Wildest Dreams wasn't in there. I love that one.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I know, because it was in the tour.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right? I think there were a couple that were in the tour but didn't make the movie. And I'm sure they have to cut out at some point.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. I really wanted to hear The Archer, so when I went, I was, like, elbowing my husband, being like, okay, this is next. This is next. This is next. And I was like, oh, the Archer is next. And it didn't happen. What?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: You knew the order of the songs going in.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, because it's the same as the tour.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Okay.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I watched a lot of Lives live streams, and then I have the playlist on my phone, so it didn't come on. And I was like, am I missing something? Like? What was the archer in Lover? Am I totally off? Is it 1980? No, it's not 1989.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Blah, blah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So it was like the Archer cardigan. Wildest dreams. And then no body, no crime. I don't love no body, no crime. But I was really disappointed about the Archer cardigan and Wildest Dreams, like, bombed.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, no, I think a lot of people were, but I think at some point they have to cut some. Like it's already super long.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Just also giving her some props. So top grossing music concert film ever already. Followed by Justin Bieber with his Never say never one. And then Michael Jackson. This is it. And then Hannah Montana Best of Both Worlds, which I thought was, like, so funny. I loved Hannah Montana, definitely didn't see it. But it was also a little yeah, but I'm curious to see how Beyonce's tour does Renaissance.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That's awesome.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I think it's coming. We know it's coming out. Yeah. So she's going to do a movie, another opportunity, which I think is so great for people to be able to see their favorite artists without spending hundreds or thousands of dollars.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So I appreciate it. For Taylor Swift, like, literally thousands, let alone, like, airfare hotel. And you think there's probably a lot of people out there who maybe just even physically can't get know. And so it is really cool way. I also think it's so cool that this year I feel like it's been like women at the box office. We had like, Barbie and now we have Taylor Swift. And I was reading something that know, they released it independently, not with a major studio. And just this is another thing I love about Taylor Swift is she clearly is. So like, on the one hand, I'm like, what does it feel like to be that powerful? On the other hand, I'm too scared to know. But she's so powerful and she uses it in, I think, some smart ways like this, like releasing it without a studio backing her. At a time when all the strikes are happening and there's so much tension between the studio execs and the creatives, it's just like sort of showing them we don't really need you if our content is good enough. And I just feel like that's kind of smart. And I feel like we know movie theaters and stuff have been so struggling for a long time, and especially since COVID So it's just like injecting a lot of into that sphere. It's just like stuff like that I find really interesting. And I think some of her, I'd say, like, in the past decade. Some of her songs I'm specifically thinking of. You need to calm down. I love that song. But her lyrics that are just very shade, never made anybody less gay. You've just said so much. It's just so smart. And I think she's been more political in the past few years. And it's just like, what a way of using your power. Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And we saw that with Antihero, too, right. So antihero is like, right? The radio hit of midnight. And it's just, like, all about mental health. So in case this is your first episode, we are two mental health professionals who typically talk about movies, diagnosing TV characters and talking about mental health themes that we see. But we thought it'd be fun to take a little bit of a detour with this and talk about just, like, her impact on mental health. There's a lot of articles that came out after the Eris tour tour started. One of them I tried to find, but it's like behind a paywall new York Times, the psychologist or psychiatrist was talking about the week and just hearing constantly about Taylor Swift, about the lyrics, about what's going on with her and just how that's impacted our sessions and the yeah, it's amazing, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And I think, like you're saying, Portia, she speaks to entire not even just one generation, not even, like, the generation she belongs to, but like, you're saying you see older women there, you see very young. Like, my daughter hasn't been in love yet, except, like, with me, of course, but she doesn't relate to all these words yet. But there's something about her she relates to already. Right. And to me, that's fascinating. And I think sitting there in the movie with her, seeing these other young girls, seeing older mothers there with their daughters, then being at this phase of my life, I just felt very connected to all different phases of my life. And I feel like that's what brought me to tears. That was overwhelming. And I felt like that at Barbie, too, when we went just seeing all the moms and daughters and stuff like like, you just feel connected. And I think that she just does that for the masses somehow.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I know, and I think it's got to come back to her presence. I think she's very relatable and even some of the stuff on the level of the stage that she is so privileged within, right? Like celebrity culture, artists, et cetera. It's like right. We can all remember some of the not so nice things that happened to her. Very Kanye, you know? Then her albums with Scooter Braun. And it's just like it's so interesting watching someone again who does have a lot of power and privilege be able to do something about it. And I think sometimes we don't have that ability. And that feels really bad, which, of course, it does, but for her, to be able to be such a model of resilience, trying to own your power and use your resources where you can I don't know, just, like, own your stuff is so empowering.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I 100% agree. And I think with all of her privilege also comes this huge level of scrutiny and criticism, which I don't think any of us can imagine what that's really like to live through. And for her to have navigated that from the age of, like, 1415 to now as a woman. Right. I think the man really speaks to that in a fun, cheeky, catchy way, but really speaks to it. And it's been really fascinating to watch her evolution as she has tried to manage all that scrutiny. And I think we got some insight into her own sort of mental health struggles, which I don't think we need to fully get into. But with that documentary that came out during COVID what was it? Miss Americana? But it was to see that it does get to her and it's like, well, duh. Of course it does. It would get to any of us. Even that makes her relatable. But even just like, the way she talked about it in that documentary wasn't like it didn't, to me, at least, feel like attention seeking. It seemed more like, this isn't stuff she talks about a lot. She doesn't really want to talk about it, but she's putting enough out there and with antihero and stuff like that to sort of say, I'm going through this. This is how I cope with it. And I think that helps make her relatable. But then to see her still shine and bounce back or rebound or grow from it and make art from it and express herself in a way that connects with the masses again, I think is really inspiring. And I think not everyone can do that. Not everyone would be able to get back up after all of that. Heavy, heavy.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So I was listening to a podcast with, you know, that I really enjoy him and his book, but Josh Peck has a podcast, and he had, like, open invite.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Josh Peck?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So they had the guest, Taylor Lautner, on their podcast, know, We Know, dated many years ago. Ironically, he did marry a So Now, which I just think is so hilarious. But anyway, he was talking about Know from them then and just saying how they kind of reconnected because he was in one of her more recent music videos and she's just so nice and hardworking and creative. And now, a couple of days later, Travis, Kelsey's dad, was interviewed about her and just talking about how she was cleaning up trash in this week. And it feels which everyone is saying, right, and I believe, but, like, really authentic. It's not performative. It's not like, oh, I'm putting on this act where I'm so nice. It's just like, she doesn't have that diva mentality, even though she should. Right. It's like she's the number one pop star ever and is so popular and could get away with it. Right. But it's like she's so grounded. And I think taking time off and really not being in the public eye at certain times, maybe in response to some difficult things, has really helped that. And even just thinking, like, I can't imagine what it would be like to be someone of her levels, like therapists. Right. I don't know if she has one. I'm not saying she does, but I can't imagine.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But I would imagine she does. Or she has at some points, I would hope. Or maybe her parents are just like, astoundingly amazing, like amazing supports. She's had some level of support to help, I think, keep her grounded. And I totally agree. I think she does have a reputation of being nice. And I think you just see that. You just feel it from her. And I agree, it doesn't feel, performative or put on. And then there was an article that came out a while back just saying she gave all of her tour drivers like $100,000 bonus. I feel like she just does stuff like this. And I was like going down a reddit rabbit hole in preparation for this episode and just seeing what do people think of her? Because I'm sure there are people who hate her. I'm sure she's been rude to someone at some point in her life because she's human and we all have, but I think in general, she seems just very nice. And even the stuff with Sophie Turner lately, how she was going through a hard time and all of a sudden Taylor's with her and she kind of swoops in. I feel like for her friends at Important, and maybe there is a bit of it that's for publicity, but I think that's an example of her using her power for what she feels like is right or good or things like that. Right. And I feel like, sure, there's probably been some caddiness in the past, I would imagine. I don't know. But I get that sense that she's just like, nice.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I think so.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And I think that it's like, how does that happen? How did you not become a raging narcissist? Right. In our succession episodes, we talked a lot about, well, when you live in that environment, how could you not be? Right? And it's like, how could she not be? But somehow she's remained grounded. It really seems like again, I have no idea. I could be totally off. I haven't.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It's just that like, phenomenon, right? When everyone is doing something for you all the time and everyone is so happy to what do you need? Or what do you want? Or, you're so amazing. And that's in your ear, it's like people who run in those circles, whether it's just from wealth or it's from fame that changes you, that becomes right. So I think. It's really interesting that that's not ever the case of what we see the public ever. It's like so many artists or celebrities, right. It's like they were rude to a person at a restaurant or she has, which she should. And I think it's similar with the Kardashians, like really good NDAs right. Nothing's getting through, even though there's some pictures lately. But she just seems like she has a really strong support system, which I would know kind of as just a general way to judge it to Britney Spears. Right. So it's like Taylor Swift appears to us to have this strong secure support system where it's like I think her dad people have talked about is into finance. So he did really well with putting her money in places and looking out for her. Exactly. And then we see someone who did not appear to have a good, strong support system to protect around her. And it's know that's not as simple as it is, but it's like that's a good example. Know just the differences or what I would imagine Taylor Swift has and how important it is.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right. And I think Taylor Swift is an individual person, but she's also like a machine, right? Like it isn't just a know, like she's got her in house management, which again is like smart. I think she's learned to keep it all in house, is what it seems like. We should take a page from her book as our podcast obviously grows to be wildly successful.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So let's go through if you want to. I thought it'd be fun to just go through like the antihero lyrics. Oh my God.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Because there's one line that's my favorite lyric, perhaps, of all time. I bet you can guess what it is.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I can. It's coming up. I think it's like the third verse. Okay. So it starts with I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser. Midnights become my afternoons when my depression works. The graveyard shift. All the people I've ghosted stand there in the room.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Everyone just shut the door, just stop. Like amazing. And also spot on for clinical depression. It affects your sleep cycles. You tend to be up in the middle of the night. You have what we call like a delayed sleep cycle. So you fall asleep way later, and then you have a harder time waking up in the morning hearing that. I'm like, she has experienced depression. That's what it feels like.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I think it's really funny because when you are experiencing depression, you often are not responding to people. And I have a lot of clients who there's a lot of anxiety about their text or their imessage, their Snapchats growing. And now it's like 100 or 40 or whatever and just being paralyzed with not being able to respond. And that can feel right, even if it's not intentional. Like you're ghosting your friends. So all the people I've ghosted stand there in the room. Right. Like, staring at me, like, all the pressure to respond.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It's just like, yes, 100% kiss social isolation 100%. And also it speaks to maybe how self critical you can feel when you're clinically depressed episode. Or maybe even some people are just way more critical of themselves. We call that having a critical superego. But it kind of speaks to that too. Like, maybe these people aren't really thinking about her, but she is feeling all this guilt for not getting to them.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Absolutely. All right, so the next couple of lines are, I should not be left to my own devices. They come with prices and vices. I end up in crisis pale as all this time I wake up screaming from dreaming. One day I'll watch as you're leaving because you got tired of my scheming.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: For the last time.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So what do you think that's about? If I'm taking it really directly, I wake up screaming from dreaming. So maybe having some nightmares, like anxiety dreams about what you're doing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Go ahead.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Some just like, lack of maybe confidence.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, I should not be left to my own devices. I think a lot of people who experience mental health challenges, there's separate ones that you are overly confident or inappropriately confident, but the majority of the other ones we see more typically, there's like a big confidence hit.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. And I think it speaks to when you're feeling more depressed or anxious, it's common in human nature to use unhealthy coping strategies like everything from overeating to not exercising to using substances to maybe something like self harming behaviors. I think it kind of speaks to being stuck in the muck of depression, maybe, and feeling like you can't get yourself out. And also that wondering if the person you love will still be there for you or if this is going to push them away.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I know that's good. That's a good analysis.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And then we come to the chorus. So it's me. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me at tea time everybody agrees I'll stare directly at the sun, but never in the mirror. It must be exhausting. Always rooting for the antihero.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Can she get a Pulitzer Prize, please? Like, this is astounding. This still isn't my favorite line. You know it's coming up.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: You know which one it is? I do. So I'll stare directly at the sun, but never in the mirror I think is so good with, like, you'll hurt yourself, you'll blind yourself, you'll cause pain or whatever, but you won't kind of look at what's really maybe happening about you, the self awareness to get that insight.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And it's like it is so hard to look at yourself, your true self, and own up to or acknowledge the parts of ourselves that we don't like or that we want to change or that we know are getting in our own way so hard. And it just really speaks to that. And that's even harder when you're in the throes of depression or even just like stress. Even if it's not like a clinical mental health issue. Even just like being overwhelmed with stress. Oh my God. Totally. That might be my second favorite line.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So then we come to the part that everybody was like, what does that mean? Sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby and I'm a monster on the hill. Too big to hang out, slowly lurching towards your favorite city, pierced through the heart but never killed. So to me that feels like a little bit of her talking about body image. Right. So everybody's sexy and attractive and I'm this monster on the hill. So I'm this clumsy, lurching, uncomfortable in my body. I don't know how to move it. I feel detached from it, which is pretty common if you're having any type of body image issues, which she's talked about having and then pierce through the heart.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I was just going to say this was the one in the movie right. Where on the screen was like a giant tailor lurking around right. And kind of like an awkwardness and I feel like her awkwardness as beautiful and tall and blonde and skinny that she is, she still has this awkwardness that I think makes her relatable that people latch on to, but I imagine for her has been uncomfortable.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, she's tall. I know a lot of people tall women have a hard time being tall. Like it's just with partners, with clothing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: 100%. I'm sure she has faced so much scrutiny in the media about her body and her changing body from teenagerhood to now. Right. Even watching her dancing, like in the movie, there were parts where she was a little awkward, but I liked know and I think people like it, but I would imagine for like when you are up against Britney Spears or other well, you might feel a certain way. So I totally that can speak to that.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: She's definitely a lyricist and know she's not a dancer. I think she does a great job, but that's why she has amazing dancers.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So here we go. Yeah. Did you hear my covert narcissism? I disguise as altruism, like some kind of congressman.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That's it. It's my favorite line.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So we talk a lot about narcissists.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yes, they're I think just like everywhere in America culture, period, but a lot on our screens in terms of TV shows and movies. But holy can I say holy ****. Holy ****. First of all, covert narcissism is such a high level concept. I feel like the average person wouldn't understand. And that is just spot on that a lot of times people who are really altruistic, but in a way that you're putting it out there for everyone to see, that's where it's coming from. Oh my God. Every time I hear that line, I'm floored. And I love that the masses are consuming this because maybe somewhere in there. There's a kernel that makes you think or makes you wonder, like, what is that? Maybe you look into it a little more. Right, right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And then her comparing it to some kind of congressman. I think it's common knowledge. I don't think it's like a hot take to say that most politicians are Narcissists. I think you have to be, in a way, to believe that you should be a leader of the masses, even if you're a great leader or you're a bad leader. But then I think we've talked about, too, that's where you see the differences between covert and overt Narcissists. We could give examples, but we're not going to because we don't talk about real people or make judgments.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, but listen to our old episodes about succession, about even the Nightmare Before Christmas. We touch on this with the mayor. We've touched on it a lot. Our stuff about you. We've touched on Narcissism a lot. And I think I think of Narcissism much like I think of a lot of different things, especially in regards to personality development, as being a spectrum. And there is like, we all need a healthy amount of Narcissism to be self confident, to put yourself out there, to advocate for yourself. It's like the people who don't have enough of it are often the ones who, like, people please too much, get walked all over, don't put themselves up for the promotion. Right. You need a healthy amount of it, and then you need to have a healthy amount of empathy to be able to keep it in check. And it's when it's all the way to the side where you don't have any empathy, where it becomes, like, a real issue in your relationships. Oh, my gosh. And, yeah, there are certain fields, like politicians, I think any field where you're a leader in some way, there might be a higher percentage of people with these.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. We katrina loves talking about Narcissism, so if you have an interest in that fairly so the last verses or little dribble of words is just about her saying, right? Like, my daughter in law kills me for the money, which I think speaks to her storytelling, or just like, who knows? I'm making a huge assumption here, but I don't know if I was her I think there's all these people who might be out to get you, right? Like, take advantage. I don't think it's real paranoia. Right. We've talked about this before, too, with succession, and just like, people are out to use you for whatever, for clout, for money, for any kind of gain, and that's really why. Right. She seems to have such a secure network where it feels like it's balanced, right? Like, people are getting paid well to work for her, and that builds trust. And she has a lot of long term relationships. She has Tree, who's I think her publicist, who she's had for decades, and that I think just speaks to people are really rooting for you.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think that also just speaks to her character that despite being patapulted into fame and everything she's gone through, if there are these people that have been there for a long time and she can maintain those relationships, I think that speaks to her character. Getting back to her grounded, humble nature. I just think that's a good point.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So the one other thing that I wanted to cover is kind of the idea of gaslighting. So in the all too well ten minute version, which was just literally a religious experience to watch, this is where.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I was like, I need to watch this ten minute music video. I haven't watched it yet. I hadn't watched it before, but I was like, up googling on Wikipedia on Reddit, trying to figure out what is up with this red scarf?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: What did you find?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Found a lot of stuff about maybe it was about a relationship with an older man that was short lived. Maybe it involved, like, her virginity and stuff. And I was just like I had a lot of feelings about it.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So obviously there's iconic lines in this, like, f the patriarchy. And then one of the lines, which is like, as I get older, your lovers stay my or as you get older, your lovers stay my age.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And that was like, after apparently he broke up with her because you're too young, kind of thing.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I heard a lot about and I just do in general, a lot of people will throw around the word gaslighting, like, oh, he was gaslighting me, or they were gaslighting me, or blah, blah, blah, blah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And I think that this song why.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It resonates, at least for me, and I think some others have said this, too, is because at the end of the song, when she says and she repeats this over and over again, wind in my hair, I was there, I was there. Down the stairs, I was there, I was there. Sacred prayer, I was there, I was there. It was rare. You remember it. And I think that's just such a good example of how and in the music video, which is so good, with Sadie Sink and Dylan O'Brien, who are kind of like acting it out, you see Dylan O'Brien's character, like, gaslighting sink, like, kind of over and over and over again with like, what do you mean? And know the reactions of, well, I can't believe you said about my friends versus no, I'm telling you, why did you drop my hand? And so Dr. Romani, she's like a psychologist. She does a lot of interviews on TV. She was on the red table, like, a while ago, and she talked about the difference between lying and gaslighting, which I thought was really helpful. And I use right, like, so if you give a liar evidence, they will stop lying. So if you Katrina and this is the example she uses, were, like, telling me that you didn't go to this party, and I find a picture of you at the party. I'm like, oh, Katrina, but you were at the party and you were oh, like, yeah, you're right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I'm sorry.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I didn't want to hurt your feelings because you weren't invited. I'm sorry you found the evidence. Or you could be embarrassed. You could have whatever reaction. But a person who's gaslighting you will double down and be like, I can't believe you would find a picture that's so crazy you would go to all these lengths to do this. So now it's about your mental health, right? You're crazy. And I just love that example of it. And then you're saying, I was there, I was there, over and over again. It's like no, I was there. I remember it all too well, is just so powerful. And the way she repeats it, it's like she's singing it to herself. Is she singing it to me?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Because when you are being gas lit and again, I hate to bring it back to narcissism, but very common psychological abuse technique of people with narcissistic personality traits is gaslighting, which what we mean by that is like, when you are confronting someone with these traits with a reality saying, like, hey, you hurt me. You did something wrong. You're confronting them about something they've done wrong. They can't tolerate it because people with these traits can't hold on to good and bad simultaneously, especially about themselves. They have such a deep sense of insecurity and feelings of worthlessness and nothingness that they can't hold on to it. They have to project it outward and put you down so they stay feeling up here and good about themselves. Some people do this in an overt way, like the grandiose kind of way. Other people more covert. And we have other episodes where we can get into that more. But with gaslighting, when you confront them with something like this, they can't tolerate it. So I have to flip it around and make you the bad guy. Sort of make you start to doubt your own sense of reality and make it seem like, well, did I remember that correctly? Or did I do something to provoke that behavior in them? And that's what you're talking about, and it really is crazy making. It makes you feel really confused. So I think when she keeps repeating to herself, I was there, I was there, it is like her reminding herself, like, no, I was there, and her sort of coming back to her sense of self and reality over and over, which happens when you're in a relationship with someone who's doing this to you. Whether it's romantic, your boss, a parent, like 100%. It's so challenging to recognize and so hard to explain.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I think it's a feeling I wish we could bottle the feeling of it because I think it's such a not necessarily. It shouldn't be such a common experience with one person, because if it is, then they're probably most likely a narcissist. But we've all kind of experienced. Someone gaslighting us and it's a feeling, it doesn't feel good, it takes us aback, and then right, it puts all the attention back on you and you feel right. So I don't know. Taylor Swift, her lyricism is amazing.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think in general, like you just said, at Best Portrait, she bottles feelings, really complex feelings and emotions and life experiences. She can just bottle up and deliver in a catchy way.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: That's the power of it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Oh, my God, it's just amazing.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, as we wrap up, we could spend hours and going through many songs. Maybe we will do a couple of songs here and there. I don't know, maybe we'll get a.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Patreon someday and we can just go.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Through some of them because there's a lot, obviously. But thank you for watching. If you've kind of enjoyed this episode with us, we're so happy to have you here. This, hopefully, is the first of many of our video episodes, but if you are just listening audio, feel free to, like, rate, review and subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts Podcast as well as TikTok at Analyze Scripts Podcast as well. And we always look for recommendations, right? So send us movies, TV shows, characters you want us to talk about, and anything else you want to add. Dr. Fury?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: No, I think if you're listening to this and not watching the video, it'll be on our new YouTube channel. So we're really excited. If you're listening but you haven't subscribed, please subscribe. We're so close to hitting one of our milestone benchmarks and we're really excited about it. So we appreciate everyone who's tuned in so far. And I got to say, we really appreciate Taylor Swift and how she has been able to put words to really difficult feelings in a way that resonates with so many. Like, it gives me some shivers to think about how so many people feel understood by one person. And I hope she keeps using her power in a good, positive way.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes, I agree. Thanks for listening.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: See you next Monday. Bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening, and see you next.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Time you sam, don't.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are thrilled to be joined by one of Dr. Furey's favorite teachers from residency, Dr. Zheala Qayyum. Dr. Qayyum is the Training Director for the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship Program and the Medical Director of the Emergency Psychiatry Services at Boston Children's Hospital. She has published on the use of fairy tales in teaching child psychiatry and joins us to discuss the first "Harry Potter" movie. In this episode, we discuss many interesting themes including the psychological effects of early childhood trauma and neglect, the attachment styles of the three main characters, and the importance of friendship in identity formation. We also reflect on the mirror of Erised and the importance of exploring dark feelings and themes in childhood from a safe space, such as through this magical film. We hope you enjoy as much as we enjoyed speaking with Dr. Qayyum!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends. There is so much misinformation out there.

[00:30] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM Five and enjoy.

[00:50] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Don'T.

[01:17] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: For a very special episode of Analyze Scripts, because one of my favorite attendings for my residency training is joining us to talk about one of my favorite movies, harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, or The Philosopher's Stone, depending on which country you're watching it in. So today we have Dr. Gila Kayum, the training director for the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship program and the medical director of the emergency Psychiatry services at Boston Children's Hospital. She holds faculty appointments at Yale School of Medicine and Harvard Medical School, and she's the associate director of medical student education and Psychiatry. She's also serving as a lieutenant colonel in the United States Army Reserves Medical Corps and deployed to Afghanistan and was later mobilized in support of the COVID-19 response to New York. Dr. Kayoom has published on the topics of medical education, autism spectrum disorders, inpatient treatment of early psychosis, and LGBTQ, plus youth, the use of fairy tales in teaching child psychiatry, and the risk of youth suicide and firearms. She has a particular interest in the areas of supervision and mentorship, which she's so good at psycho oncology and palliative care. And I feel like we always called her Dr. Q. I guess I'm allowed to call her by her first name because I'm a grown up now, but I still feel kind of funny about it. But you were one of my favorite mentors, and I feel like you're really special because sometimes when you have a mentor, it kind of feels like they're trying to mold you in their image. But I always felt like you just wanted what was best for me, and you were so encouraging, and I just always loved working with you, and you hold a really special place in my heart.

[02:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So this is really fun to talk about.

[03:00] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Harry Potter no, this is, like, making me teary. This is just a lovely intro I have gotten. And it's just such a thrill that the people that you invest in grow up to be such amazing child or adult or psychiatrists, but more so, just people. And you're very dear to me as well. The best part of being an educator and a clinician is that not only are you trying to sort of transfer your skills or your wisdom, but you get to see your kids grow and become they're meant to be and their best versions. And if you think you're a part of that journey, I think that's just the most amazing privilege.

[03:50] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Well, I know you were for me, and I know you were for a lot of my co residents, so it's so true. So I am dying to talk to you about this movie, given your interest in using fairy tales to explore development. So I just kind of want to jump right in and hear what you think about the first Harry Potter movie and kind of what jumps out at you.

[04:13] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: So I think one of the loveliest things about Harry Potter was that it was a modern fairy tale, and we've had a lot of lovely fantasy series, but there was something very special about Harry Potter that just captured everyone, whether it was kids or adults. It's interesting, whenever I ask people what their favorite children's book is, inevitably, for a lot of them, it's Harry Potter. And I read it in med school. So I was much older, but I still stood in line at midnight yes, where I was standing next to like, ten year olds in their robes, and I was like, Am I in the right place? But you felt like you were in the right place. And I think that's what it communicated was it was or is a modern fairy tale for all ages. It just has that essence of a fairy tale, that it means something different to different people at whatever stage of development or life they're in. So a child can interpret it in their own way and have things that they resonate with. And as adults, we might find things that resonate to us, whether based on the hero's journey, these ordeals and call to action and your helpers that bring you along, but also the trepidations, the challenges, the times you doubt yourself when things are there. How do you overcome challenges and this power of transformation through a journey and a story that you're not the same person that you started off as, but with all of the things that you've had to experience? How does that evolve and transform you till you come full circle in some way? Not the same person that left, but so much more wiser grown. I think it's the transformative journey that we see from the first book that started, but there are these just themes that just feel like so relevant to today about loss and difficulty and when you're seeing this drive for power around you and how do you fit in the whole picture. And we usually have a reluctant protagonist in many stories that is not fully sure they want to take on the adventure and the call for action, and yet they do. But I think most importantly for me, the biggest thing was the importance of hope and friends.

[07:04] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I totally agree. And it's funny you mentioned hearkening back to standing in line at midnight at, like, Borders Books or wherever you were. I totally did the same thing. I think I was in middle school and then high school. But it is really fascinating how Harry Potter and other fairy tales like it. But I feel like especially Harry Potter, it is such a cultural, communal enjoyment and not just in American culture, but certainly worldwide. It's just such a really cool thing that it just really spans ages, genders, cultures, nationalities, languages. Everyone loves it, right? And I feel like this movie rewatching it now as an adult with my children was so meaningful and fun. So I have a seven year old and a four year old and they were just enraptured by it. They wouldn't stop talking the whole time. They wouldn't take their eyes off and this isn't like a cartoon, so they're still at the ages where really it's cartoons that catch their attention for two and a half hours. But this one did, and that was really interesting to me and really special. And I love some of their commentary. Like, with her, MayAny always raising her hand. My daughter, which I was so happy, said she's got a really big brain. And I was like, yes, she know. And then when Draco came on the scene very early on, my son was like, oh, he's a bully. And I was just you know, it's just really cool to kind of see kids watching it too.

[08:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I think it's worth mentioning something interesting. When I was starting to read the books before the music, the movies had started kind of coming out. I remember very distinctly the religious organization that I was a part of at the time was very split with people thinking that you shouldn't be reading it. It's magic. It's witchcraft. Witchcraft. And then the other half being like, if you know the story, it's like this good versus evil. Good always triumphs. There's hope. There's, like you were saying, friendships. I mean, it's such a positive message. And there's so many interesting.

[09:23] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I don't.

[09:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Know, like, spiritual parallels and parallels throughout all of the books. But I think it was just an interesting time to be know, hearing this spoken series is bad or evil and then reading them. Know, in my family, we were very pro Harry Potter and loving the messages. And I think that was just like I don't know. I'm sure some other people might have had that experience.

[09:45] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, I totally remember.

[09:48] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right.

[09:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, we come to see this boy in, I would say, a pretty abusive home with a lot of neglect. And I think it's funny watching it or thinking about it now versus in. Like, I'm curious what even your kids picked up of the scenes. The parents certainly seem mean and right dismissive. And you picked that up even as a child, like something not right. Why does Dudley receive all of these gifts and Harry not his clothing?

[10:18] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, my kids were asking about that?

[10:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like why are they so mean to?

[10:22] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Why is he living under the stairs? They certainly were asking those questions.

[10:29] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, no, I think it's a really lovely depiction of how prevalent and difficult it is for kids that have neglect. And I think also it really sort of from starting from him being under the stairs and just watching Dudley get 36 presents and counting and him thinking about, like he has to get hand me downs to go to school and what that would be like. Just that differential that was created and that sense of otherness or I don't belong or I'm not good enough. It really, I think, beautifully highlights how a child will internalize that, because you see that then play out throughout, which partly keeps him humble when everybody thinks he's this amazing everybody knows him, but he's coming from where? Nobody. Knows anything about him. And he held on to that for a very long time and it really changed his I think we see him work through it, but his sense of belief and faith in his own abilities and his self because they told him he wasn't good enough for a good eleven years. And that sense of feeling like you're worth something that he didn't get initially. And how does one young child actually grow to develop that? Partly it kept him humble in the face of, I don't know, magician dumb or stardom or whatever that was that he got later on. But also, it really impeded his ability to rely on other people. And we see. This in the later books as well, but whenever he has to do something, he's very like the avoidant attachment style. I can't trust people to be there for me. And we know later in the books there are other losses that sort of reinforce that for him. But he embarks on everything on his own and working with others and trusting others comes very, very it's very challenging for him, comes much later.

[12:52] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I like that you brought up his attachment style. Can you explain a little bit what avoided attachment is or the kind of kids or adults we might see that in and how Harry either fits in or doesn't quite fit in.

[13:09] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: So the avoidant attachment style is when a young child has inconsistent caregiving where their needs may not be consistently met. And so rather than clinging to their caregiver to get their needs met, they're like avoiding contact with them because they don't know are they coming, are they going, or are they going to be there. So the child starts to avoid that contact and doesn't get need or avoids contact with the caregiver to get soothed and self regulated. So we see the same thing, that since the Attachment is our template for forming relationships, that we carry on in life, we see Harry particularly later on as he's growing older, that even in adolescence, whenever there is a challenge, he goes off on his own rather than relying on anybody else because he doesn't know. Are people going to really be there for him or not? Are they going to leave? Are they going to neglect him? So he might as well do that for himself and just go off on his own. So that sense of avoiding closeness with people because they might leave or not be there for you, is that sense that avoidant children internalize and so they don't keep looking for closeness with people. It's good that we see Harry work through this over a great many books, which also tells you that it runs in parallel with the life experience of a young child who's had early life neglect and avoidant attachment style might need a lot of reinforcement of positive interactions to say, no, you can rely on other people. If you do get close to people, it'll be okay. And yet loss is a very, I think, integral part of our human experience and life. And for an avoidant child, there is that risk that it just might reinforce that belief that people are not going to be there for them.

[15:18] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And in addition to Harry having that early childhood neglect and abuse, he also had early loss of his parents, who seem like lovely caregivers, who were likely very attuned to his needs, at least as far as we can tell, and that he was present for their murder. And so I was really curious about your take on that, given around the age they depict that and then what it must have been like for him at age eleven to start learning the truth about that loss at the same time as he's learning their loss is why he's famous or special. I just imagine that's got to be so confusing.

[16:03] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Absolutely. And I think that's such a lovely point of there's so much magic instilled in that power, of that parental love that he carried with him that it literally burned. Professor Squirrel.

[16:22] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[16:23] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It was so powerful. I think it does show, though, however, that it was at a very sort of vulnerable time period in his life when that death occurred. He was still a baby, and we're thinking, like, till from infancy to toddlerhood, maybe the first part went well when his parents were attuned and taking care of him, but later on, and still in that very vulnerable time frame, he had a lot of neglect. And so as you're entering into your preteen years, your sense of, how do I relate with my peers? Who am I in relationship with them? Will they accept me as? We're thinking about later, latency age and early preteens going into your identity formation, who you are is so sort of determined by who are the people in your life? Who brought you here? What is your story? How did you start? And I remember as a child, my mom would tell me stories about, well, when you were little we did this things I wouldn't remember. But still you create these memories based on the things that your parents tell you as well when you're younger. But those things are so important in our development, and now he had to figure that out on his own. Who was he? What were his parents like? That question of when he goes and sees his father's name on the trophy room and he's like, I didn't know he was a Seeker. There's just so many knowns for him to figure out who he is because he doesn't know where he's coming from, and your legacy or your lineage or what are the wonderful stories about how amazing you are. Your parents tell you he never had that. And now he has to create his own narrative about who he is, which is the whole process through the book.

[18:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And speaking of like, identity formation, he went from being told that you're such a burden, you're unwanted. Your parents were horrible, they were weird or strange, to being praised or whoa, Ron's reaction to it's. You with the scar on the train, know, having all of this wealth suddenly and this importance in this world, it's just so interesting. You had written down with Hagrid, like him just going with that to this magical place that if somebody had told an eleven year old me, I think, and I'm hopefully that I'm securely attached, I would have been afraid to go with Hagrid.

[19:08] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[19:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This big, burly, giant, half giant man who's telling me all these things that we're going to go to this magical place. I think for a securely attached child, they probably wouldn't have gone. But he didn't have any attachments. And then I think anything is better than living with the directly to finally.

[19:29] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Take him out of that situation.

[19:31] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right.

[19:31] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's like almost like this savior has come to rescue him. What were your thoughts about that, Dr. Q? The way he so know, latched onto Hagrid?

[19:41] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, I think just like Portia said, it's like that insecure attachment, there's nothing to hold him there. But he's also, I think, like you talked about at a point where he's thinking about things and his life. If he's going to go to the same school as Dudley, what is that going to be? He's getting into trouble constantly. And imagine the message you internalize after you're told that everything you do is wrong or you're a bad kid, and you get told that long enough, you start believing it. So maybe it wasn't such a far fetched thing to say, I'm going and I'm taking off.

[20:19] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[20:20] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: What's the worst thing that can happen whenever anything I do isn't good anyway?

[20:27] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? And I think we see that in clinical work. And probably you see a lot more, given your line of work, in kids who maybe will go off with not safe people. That sort of increases their vulnerability for those very situations.

[20:43] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Because at the core of it, every kid just wants to belong.

[20:48] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[20:49] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And so if it was what Hagrid said, is that's where you belong? He hasn't had that sense of belonging at the Dursleys. So he will try. And go and find if he belongs somewhere else and what other people.

[21:09] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And he does find.

[21:10] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I feel like I'm going to cry.

[21:11] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Talking about Harry Potter and also just thinking about Hagrid is like, I just love Hagrid. He's such a gentle giant, but I couldn't think of a better person to come scoop up Harry. Right. Like, even just imagining him sort of putting him in the little sidecar, he's, like, nice and cozy and secure and contained and I hope just feels safe next to this big old guy who.

[21:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Stood up to the dursleys, right? Chased found him. I remember my blood boiling even watching the movie again or rereading the book when they keep taking his know you know, it's such.

[21:58] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: His letter.

[21:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's the one thing he has.

[22:02] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But then Hogwarts is like, well, we'll send you more. We're not going to give up. And I would imagine for, like, how wonderful. That must feel like, wow, they really.

[22:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Are trying to get to me.

[22:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No one has wanted me like that before. And they're being like Hogwarts or whoever. Dumbledore's love for him is so transcendent and powerful that it wins. Out against the neglect of the know.

[22:29] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Just beautiful and sort of how teary Hagrid was when he was first dropping him off when he was a baby and dumbledore saying it's not goodbye for.

[22:42] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh my gosh I feel like, that's how I am. Every year the new school year starts, you're just like, oh, my gosh, they're growing up.

[22:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then hermione I think it's worth mentioning. So she has, it seems, securely attached, supportive parents. But is living as a muggle her whole life until receiving these letters and going to Hogwarts and then learning that she is like a mudblood and that she is not good enough. Her blood is like, dirty. And yet she is so brilliant, and I think that's such an interesting reversal of her and Harry's experience. She's still really smart, but it's like it's not good know are calling her names like Draco. And I don't think that she experienced that. Prior know the little bits that we get of her pre hogwarts.

[23:40] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And interesting to think about her parents. Like getting this random letter and sending her. Right?

[23:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[23:51] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: That's the wonderful thing about secure attachment and great parenting is know, we're all about you. So if this is who you are and this is your success and this is where you're going to thrive, sure.

[24:03] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: We don't know anything. Go for it.

[24:06] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think that is part of Hermione's own resilience as well is that that secure attachment, as difficult as those interactions with Draco are, allows her to stand up for Harry and Ron and build friendships and sort of extend that beyond the parental unit onto her friends, new people and say, because I have a good sense of attachment and security and I know people will be there for me, I can be there for other people, too. And then you can carry it forward. So I think Hermione is a really nice example of a secure attachment. And then I think you see that play out a little bit more. Not in the first book, but later on at the Yule ball, where she can put Ron in his place for not asking her out and sort of take ownership of her own. Know, next time you want to do this, pluck up the courage and ask, right?

[25:10] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Boundaries.

[25:11] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think that's a really nice illustration of how important attachment is as a child is growing and then into adolescence that the same things play out in your other relationships.

[25:25] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And how amazing to have a girl character like Hermione, right? Like, I think all the things you just said, like her bravery, her intellect, her self confidence, her boundaries, I just think so lovely to have a girl character like this for girls and boys and adults to read about and identify with. And she can maintain that sense of herself in the face of draco and the slurs and the comments, even when people even know who she goes on to marry down the road. Spoiler alert. Even as he's kind of putting her down for being smart, she doesn't stop raising her, know? And I remember as a middle school girl who loved school, just loving that, just loving that. And I loved watching now my daughter, watch her, and I'm just like, soak this up, soak this.

[26:20] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, such a lovely little bottle for girls. And then since we're on the topic, like, you think about Ron, who is like this lost soul in this big family of redheads. And so you kind of see his sort of anxious style come through that, particularly when he was asked to relax and he couldn't.

[26:44] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes, he's like, I don't know how.

[26:49] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right? And all the hand me down. Not that he got, but also the same sweater that he gets every year, that there is love in that family, there is care, but also with so many kids, they're kind of lost until they get into trouble, that they get into parental they get parental attention and you hear about their concerns. And so even though there is not a lot of any mal intent anywhere within the Weasley family, but you can see where Ron's anxiety and anxious attachment style comes in and you see the same thing in the Eubolic. And the anxious attachment style is, you know, the child that doesn't know how to get through, they're like, all right, please pick me up. No, now put me down. No, pick me up again. I'm not sure. They're just taking time to self regulate and self soothe and sometimes they can get pretty irritable and upset too, and so they might lash out. And you see that in the U ball scene, too, where I know I'm jumping ahead, but rather than asking Hermione, he gets really sulky and irritable rather than owning up, but he wants it, but he doesn't know how to do it. So you kind of see that tension and that sort of clinginess but not sure what to do sort of thing. So I think the whole series really highlights these attachment styles really nicely.

[28:19] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Isn't that amazing? How did JK. Rowling do that? And I thought the fact that they're all eleven, it was just perfect, right? Like at that age and kind of with all the books following them through is just really beautifully done, I think.

[28:39] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And you can kind of play out in the carriage scene when they're first on the Hogwarts Express together, where I think Hermione comes in looking for Neville's Frog frog. And you see how confident she is and she's you're and who are you and have you done this? And so self aware, self confident. And then you have Harry just sitting by himself, not sure he wants to talk to anybody. And poor Ron, who's trying to get his presence known again, just like a young child in a big family would feel lost, that I have to make my presence known, otherwise I won't get the attention I need. And poor Scabbers that he's trying to turn yellow and that's not working out. So you kind of see it play so nicely in a very simple scene.

[29:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Definitely something that I noticed, and I think it's just my interpretation of things, is that Ron seems to have the most obvious shame about his finances compared to the other siblings. I don't really notice or even Jenny's younger in this book, but being so visibly upset, I know that there's the interaction in the robes shop with Draco and then on the train, even with his little sandwich, right, he can't buy the treats. And then there's like whoa when Harry has those gold coins. And it really does seem to impact him even throughout the rest of the story. Just that intersectionality. He's a pure blood, but he is poor. And then how that really goes up against Draco and his Pure Blood and wealth family.

[30:34] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think that's an interesting thing to think about the intersectionality of all their identities in this sort of fantasy world, right? There's so many parallels. Like even if you think about different intersectional identities in our culture today, and it's just interesting to think about it's an older book.

[30:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, again, it's so easy to talk about these more seemingly popular nuanced ideas. They've been around for a while, but everyone kind of talks about their intersectionality or different identities. And it's so clear in the book, right?

[31:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It does seem like the type of series where you'll always get more from it. I reread the series I think, last year, and I loved it, and I feel like I got more from it as an adult than I did as a kid. And it's one of those things where I feel like every time you read it, you'll get more and more from it.

[31:31] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It just means something different. Yeah.

[31:35] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So one thing I was hoping we could talk about is the mirror of Irisev, which is desire spelled backwards. I totally choked up watching this part again, as an adult, I was curious to hear about your experience.

[31:52] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, I had so many thoughts about that. I mean, it's such a powerful thing. And the fact that if you're truly content, then you can see yourself as you are, only the happiness, and if that is the measure of happiness. And it was like, wow, just the visual illustration of happiness, that you could see yourself and just see yourself as you are. Because I just felt like, yes, it is desire spelled backwards, but it is so prevalent throughout with starting with those 36 presents that you want more, and Voldemort wanting more, that defeated and needing to come back and needs to get more and more power and even kills a unicorn for it.

[32:46] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, my gosh, that was devastating for my four year old daughter. I regretted that part horribly.

[32:51] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Like, yes, moving but jarring scene. And then the fact that your heart's deepest desires that you're desperate for and you'll see that, but anything that's too much is going to consume you. And those people who sort of run after the things that they really, really want, I think it was a very powerful way of giving that message of too much consume you and there'll be nothing left. Like it does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. So I just thought it takes so much courage, though, to ask yourself what it is that you really want in life. I mean, a lot of us may want all these things, but what is it that you truly, truly want? I think that's a very powerful question to ask. And how many of us really can look at ourselves in the mirror and say, this is what I really, really want in life, and to be able to face that and own it.

[33:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's a good question to ask a client, even, because I think you can always get to the feeling right under it. So if someone's they're saying that their deepest desire is financial gain, it's like, okay, but what does that mean? Does that mean you want to feel secure? Does it mean that you want to be powerful in a sense of authority? Do you want people to look up to you? It's always like a feeling.

[34:26] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And why? Where does that come from?

[34:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's a good place to explore with yourself and maybe with a patient as well.

[34:33] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Can you imagine, like, starting off a session, they come to see you. For the first time. And you're like, here is my mirror of IRISET.

[34:39] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah.

[34:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Looking at what do you see and.

[34:42] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What does that mean?

[34:45] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It'll make our job so much easier.

[34:47] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know, right quick, right real quick.

[34:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We'll get to the deep rooted issues in 10 seconds.

[34:54] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Easy peasy. Managed care will love it. So we see what Harry wants, which is his parents. And again, I was so struck by him going back to that mirror repeatedly and I was just like, of course he is, right? Like his parents are moving. You see his mother, his father touch his shoulder. I was just like, oh, I so feel that for him. Then we see him drag ron so excited to share that experience of his parents with him. But Ron sees himself as head boy and winning the quidditch cup. And again, that totally makes sense based on everything we just talked about with Ron's family. We didn't see hermione. And I was curious what you guys thought. What would hermione see, if anything, or would she see herself?

[35:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think maybe if anyone would be seeing themselves, it would be her. Especially like in book one. I think she does seem so content and excited and authentic that I think it might be her. Maybe it's her being top of the class.

[36:04] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think she is.

[36:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She already kind of is.

[36:08] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I have a feeling that the one thing she grows to develop were friendships. That I wonder if she might see herself surrounded with friends.

[36:17] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I think at her age again, I agree. Portia of the Three know. Harry rod hermione. I feel like she would be the one closest to seeing just her true self. But I wonder if at that age of eleven, as a girl, if there's something deeper she's not able to articulate yet that we might see like friendship.

[36:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think that's accurate. I think sometimes you get the books confused or what's, like maybe a fan fiction thing online or something. But I am pretty sure that she does say that she did struggle with friends and so to have these deep friendships build at Hogwarts, I think that might be it.

[37:00] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah. I'm just thinking know, she is very brilliant. So seeing herself as like the know, graduate or something of her class probably isn't far fetched. But if that intimidates other kids when she's correcting them over livio saw yes, that might rub kids the wrong way. That maybe that peer acceptance and those close friendships might be something that we see sort of develop over time as well.

[37:33] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And so as we start wrapping up our wonderful episode today, let's talk a little bit about their friendships. Because I just feel like, gosh, I thought the movie did such a good job explaining the book, which has so many concepts, so much magic in it. It's had to do so much in just two and a half hours of just like background, like this is where we find ourselves. This is Hogwarts. This is Quidditch. This is Voldemort. Like here it is. And capturing all these complex concepts in such like a beautifully visually appealing way. The music is wonderful but we certainly see the triad between Harry, Ron and Hermione starting and forming and we know that just grows and grows and gets more complex over time. And I was really curious Dr. Q about your thoughts about first of all that it's a triad. There's three of them, two boys and a girl and what do you think of all that?

[38:36] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I just love the idea and particularly since you have the girl be somebody like hermione and I thought it's really nice to see their parallel processes. Each one of them is trying to sort of discovering that they're each really good at something but not good at everything. Like Hermione realizes she's not good at quit it. How humbling for someone who's really good and smart to know quidditch is not for, you know, Harry discovering that's what he's really good at and very early on know Ron playing chess and how it was reinforced with all the points even Neville's like standing up to your. So I felt that that was such a lovely way of saying that some of the reasons why friendships are important is that no one is whole in themselves and so much stronger when we all complement each other. But how do you explain that to an eleven year old? But if they saw the movie they would understand that we are so much more when we're all together and how those friendships last over years even for many of us. And I also felt like the complexity that you talked about. I think another movie that highlights it really nicely is Inside Out.

[40:06] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes, we love that movie.

[40:08] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Our emotions are one color when they're younger and as you grow older they get more complex and those marbles are multicolored because emotions are more complex than just feeling sad, mad and glad. And similarly as we're thinking about I think this goes very nicely in a parallel of fairy tales and development that when children are younger they can only see good and bad. As long as you're giving me what I want you're the good parent. When you set limits you are not.

[40:43] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh I feel this every day older.

[40:46] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: You can hold the things together in the same person that there are things that are great about them and there are things that are some weaknesses. And when we're children we look at our parents as these idealized giants and as we grow older we see them for human beings that have wonderful strengths and flaws that we can still accept and love them still the same. So I think that is a big developmental challenge but I think the books highlight that really nicely with them being able to sit and tolerate that complexity.

[41:29] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That nothing is so and again with them starting this journey at age eleven. I feel like that's the perfect timing for all of this to start. And I wonder if even the darkness of Harry Potter in watching the first movie, I was like, all right. I think it'll be several years before I show my kids the second movie because each one gets a little darker, a little grittier. But I think that maybe contributes to why it sort of captured all of us. And it is darker than the Disney version. Like, Inside Out is a great example, but I think that just speaks to the reality.

[42:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, the books get more complex, the books get darker, the characters get more complex, the characters get know. I think it was just such an interesting time to read it as a child as they came out, because it really kind of aligned perfectly with my own development.

[42:28] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, exactly.

[42:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I remember my mom read me the first book, and then I remember the last one coming out, and I think my grandma said it to me. It was like raft in the Muggles, right? Like Muggles can receive on whatever date, and then I read it for myself. So I think it's so uniquely that way that led to so many people being a part of it for years and still feeling really connected to it now.

[42:53] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And now getting to share it with your own children, like I'm starting to do, is so special.

[42:59] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah. And that's the power of fairy tales, is that even if it may be really dark, it creates this metaphorical, imaginary, special place where you can still explore this darkness in a very safe way.

[43:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

[43:13] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Go process it. Look what it's like to be angry. Oh, my gosh. Cruel people, mean people. And then you come back to the safety of reading this with your mom and everything's going to be okay.

[43:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[43:27] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's so beautiful. It is. It's very special. Very special. Well, Dr. Q, is there anything else you were hoping we could touch, know, talking about Harry Potter, the first it.

[43:42] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think it's just a wonderful part of my life. I wish I was in Hogwarts, and that was the life I lived. Sometimes I'm looking forward to having a real Harry Potter birthday someday. But I think the thing that resonates most with me is this quote from Neil Gaiman that says, fiction is a lie that tells us true things over and over. And I think that's the power of Harry Potter is that the reason it spoke to so many of us is that we all connected at some level with something that was very true for each one of us.

[44:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I like that.

[44:20] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That is a really beautiful place to leave it. Well, Dr. Q, thank you so much for joining us. We would love to have you back for the next seven movies over the course of time. It was so nice to personally reconnect with you again, thank you all for listening to this very special episode of Analyze Scripts. If you'd like to hear our take on Inside Out, we do have an episode about that from several months ago. I don't know. Dr. Q, did you know they're making a sequel? I think it's supposed to come out in the next couple of years, so that's really exciting. I hope it's about Riley's adolescence. Yes, and we really hope it also shows her living through COVID. Like, we could really use that for all the kids. We could, right? But you can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram and TikTok and catch us next Monday for our next episode. Thanks so much.

[45:24] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: See you next time. Thank you for having me.

[45:32] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we have a fun little episode exploring Tim Burton's 1993 film "The Nightmare Before Christmas." In this episode, we discuss our theories about the psychological motivations behind Jack and Sally's behaviors. We use the characters of Oogie Boogie and Lock, Shock and Barrel to explore the diagnoses of oppositional defiant disorder (ODD), conduct disorder, and antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). And we find ourselves wondering - is the Mayor supposed to depict bipolar disorder or a shady politician? We also discuss ways to talk to children after traumatic events like sadistic toys ruining your favorite holiday! We have a lot of laughs along the way and hope you enjoy this spooky episode!

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Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Welcome back to another episode this spooky month in October. Today we are covering The Nightmare Before Christmas, which is a Tim Burton movie. It came out shockingly in 1993.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think that's shocking, Portia.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I am shook. Why? I thought this was like, new. I don't maybe like Max ten years old, and this is almost as old as I am.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You didn't watch this in childhood?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Never seen it before. Watching it for this?

Dr. Katrina Furey: You never saw it before?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Not once. What? I just never got the draw.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's always shown right everywhere. Like the holiday season.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's why we're covering it. And it's a classic Halloween and Christmas movie.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So my childhood, because I guess this is a childhood ish movie are like Pumpkin town. Do you ever see that? It's on Disney.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay, so I like those one through three. Hocus pocus pocus harry Potter yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Which we'll be covering in a couple of weeks. Maybe next week.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe it's already out.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Stay tuned. So I don't know, I've never, ever seen it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow, that's wild. I thought for sure when I recommended this you had seen it. Wow. Interesting. A lot of questions. I've seen it a bunch of times in childhood. And now, as a know, we watch it every year. When we went to Disney World recently at Halloween time, they have a whole Mickey's not so scary Halloween party with Skellington. Like it's like a big deal.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Scary though. Like your kids aren't scared of the movie?

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think at certain parts a little bit, but not really. Which I also think is interesting because I also think it is like a spooky movie. And there's also now we have a couple of the children's books. People would gift them to us over the years, and one of them talks about Jack's Sleigh getting shot down. And I always make up a different word for that at that point because I feel like that's a little too much. But there's certainly spooky elements to this movie and scary elements like kidnapping the nefarious, sadistic know. So it is really interesting that kids aren't globally, I know, terrified of it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And like, Jack, at one time, I think he's honestly the least scary, but he bears his teeth, right? And does a scary face. And I was like, oh, yikes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's very Tim Burton. It is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's just not my huh.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So what are some of your questions? Like, why did I make you watch.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Are we talking about this? No, I'm kidding. I guess just why is it so popular? I know I'm very well aware that other people can like things that I don't. And I'm probably honestly in the minority, maybe minority for this movie, but I just don't understand the draw, really. I think it's scary.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Were you scared of sin at all? I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I just felt like a little watching it. Really? I watched it at night, which doesn't help anything. But I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it's like a short movie. It's a cartoon. The animation, I think, is unique. And I would imagine back in the 90s, especially unique. When you think about Disney animation at that time with Beauty and the Beast, Ariel Aladdin, it was just very different. And again, kind of like we talk about in our Harry Potter episode, there's something about the darkness that I think people are drawn to, even children, right? Like, you experience dark feelings as part of being a human. So maybe there's something about it. Where? In Halloween town? I mean, all kids celebrate Halloween, unless maybe you're very religious and you don't dress up or something. But most American children in our culture celebrate Halloween, and kids love it, but there is a spooky element, but that kind of adds to the fun. So maybe there's something about that darkness that resonates with you even as a child. At the beginning, they're all just like being their old Halloween selves and just like, really out there.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, I'm easily scared. I am not a fan ever, even in young 20s, late teens, of going to a pumpkin. Right. What are they called? Like a haunted hayride. I don't like that because I think the actors always know who in the crowd is, like, the best victim. And it's always me.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's always you.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I've been traumatized at people jumping out at you theme parks. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: They have Halloween things like, it's scary.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I've been chased and I hate what do you think you cut down trees with?

Dr. Katrina Furey: No, like, axe murderers, shovels chainsaws. That is really scary. Yeah, no, I'm not into that either. I wouldn't volunteer to go walk around and be scared. But I do like this movie. No, I totally hear that. So you're not maybe an adrenaline junkie? Like you wouldn't skydive maybe?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I think some people get a thrill from it, like their dopamine, and adrenaline is just, like, pumping.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's, like, good for them. I think it is a safer way, right. Getting it in, like, a risky way.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's true. That's true. So I guess I thought this would be a fun movie to talk about. A, because it's a classic, apparently, this news to Portia, but allegedly it's a classic. It has, like a really interesting. Like, I didn't realize until just now that Catherine O'Hara is the voice of Sally. I think Sally's a really interesting character. I feel like even if you walk around home goods nowadays, you see Jack and Sally coffee mugs, jack and Sally salt and pepper shakers. Like it's in our culture that's always like a cool Halloween costume to dress up as Jack and Sally as like a couple's costume. Now you're in on it. Maybe you'll be Sally for Halloween. We'll see danny Elfman is the singing voice for Jack Skellington, who's the main character. And then Chris Sarandon is his speaking voice. I didn't know they were two different people. Me know peewee herman. Paul Rubens plays one of the little boys.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Locke.

Dr. Katrina Furey: We'll get into lockshock and barrel in a little bit, like stuff like that. Like the names of the little boys, right, are a know. But I thought this is just such a cool movie, I guess because A, I love Halloween, I love Christmas. It combines them. And I just feel like it's all about being yourself and being happy with like we see Jack, he's the what is he? The Pumpkin King of Halloween town. And it starts off with know, they're celebrating another great Halloween. And you see him rise up from the fountain in that initial song. I think the music is really good.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think the songs were clever and catchy and sweet, some of them. Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think the music has likely contributed to why it's so popular because it's just beautiful music and we see everyone celebrating. But then Jack goes back to his haunted house where he lives with his ghost dog, Zero and seems kind of like, okay, do it all again next year. He seems kind of bored and not really into it. And then all of a sudden he discovers Christmastown and wants to become Santa Claus, basically. And tries but does a really poor job.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was like I mean, again, I'm not trying to be a hater, and I'm really not, but I thought that when he's dropping off all the presents, it's like traumatizing.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my gosh.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He thinks he's doing this wonderful you know, at his core, he is not Santa.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so he's bringing all of these literally terrifying gifts to the people of.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The world, the children.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know, they're literally like running after.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Them, trying to eat them, trying to strangle them. It is pretty frightening. But he thinks he's doing good and his intention is good. So it is, I feel, like, an interesting commentary on how our intent might not match how our actions land and how that's important to acknowledge for the other person. And then he sort of comes back to himself and accepts that that's who he is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Santa says Happy Halloween. Which is sweet when he's flying over them. Yeah, that is they kidnapped him and attempted to murder.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, yeah, I know. And I guess that's where Jack did order that, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No. Was it?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oogie boogie? Who was it that ordered them to go capture?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Capture? I think he just wanted to meet him, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, I thought he wanted them to hide him so he could be Santa.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, I thought he just was getting, like, tips and then Jack or Locke's Shock and, like, took it know?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Um, so it's just I don't know. It's interesting. What do you think about the dynamic between Jack and Sally?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I wanted more of a backstory on both of them. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She seems like she cares a lot about him, and it's like, why? Did you previously have a relationship? Are you just kind of admiring him, as everyone in the town seems to do? He was caught kind of off guard, it seemed like, because she was showing him a lot of care, a lot.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Of affection, and she was always there when he was in a bind and needed some help. I was confused by that too. Like, at the end, when they kiss, I think that's a classic scene, but I was like, oh, they could have just been friends. They could have been siblings. Like, I don't know. But it was surprising that now they're in love. I think it is also kind of classic for the time. But Sally, we see her literally take parts of herself off to protect him, which I also think is an interesting commentary that the girl is sacrificing parts of herself to be there for the guy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think you could talk about internal family systems with that, right? Like, parts theory that's not really about your body parts, but, like, internal parts.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think it's, like, just the.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Symbol of her sacrificing parts and herself and going to great lengths, like, throwing herself off the tower, sewing herself back.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Together, poisoning her father, the Doctor Finkelstein, aka Frankenstein. Yeah. Who I guess was the father. I didn't pick that up until we were reading a little bit about it. I thought he was just, like, an evil scientist who was holding her captive. It now really creeps me out if he was her dad.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's what it says. Like, I don't think that's clear at all in the movie, so you're right. I think it feels more strange and.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, dark if it's her dad.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think Sally is like a character that's just really, again, popular in our culture and helps Jack out, but also tries to caution him. He sort of wants her to make his suit. Jack's very demanding, now that I think about it. But she's like, Jack, this isn't like you right. You don't look like know when he puts on the beard, and he doesn't.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Look like that sense of impending doom. And I'm like, is that anxiety.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Or like yeah, you're listening to your gut. Very unclear.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So she does not want him to go to the world and be Santa. And he is taking charge of Halloween Town, so he know everyone in on it. Everyone's making toys or an aircraft of.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Trauma and torture, but what they think are toys because they're spooky and creepy to them, these are funny. These are toys. But it's interesting how I don't know. I guess you could even interpret this through maybe like a cross cultural lens. Like if Halloween Town is one culture and Christmas Town is a different culture, and what it's like to try to.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Assimilate I like how they accidentally captured the Easter easter Bunny. And unfortunately, the Easter bunny. Right. Like, didn't they just take him to Oogie Boogie?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, they didn't send it back. In my mind, they send him back. I don't know. Maybe I'm rewriting that story because it's too dark.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Either way, what did you think about Oogie Boogie?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He was scary. I thought it was interesting at the end that he's just like all bugs.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. That's the part that really creeps me out. Even to this day when I watch.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It, I'm just like, oh, he was definitely dark. And again, yes, I'm aware that children's stories, especially fairy tales right, can be dark. My favorite being Harry Potter, which gets progressively darker, which I think is as I get older. We've talked about that on the episode, so feel free to check that one out. But it just felt like really spooky. Like he's bad. He's a bad guy. Also made me think of the Grinch. Right. Because of where he is. You get to him through all these pipes. He lives away from everyone garbage. Not really, but in a sense, yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And why in a town like Halloween Town, where everyone is spooky and creepy and you might say weird, you might say different. I did like how they all just look so different from each other. Like, you got the vampires, you got the kids, you got Jack and Sally. There's just like all these different types of people all living harmoniously in their creepy way. So why is Boogie, like banished? I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe he took it too far. Somebody always know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe he's the criminal of the town or something. Like maybe he would jack's nemesis, too.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I wonder if they grew up together. I wonder if Okie Boogie's kind of like in the jail of he. To me, I feel like is really a good depiction of sadism, or just being very sadistic. Like putting all the people he captures on that. What do you call that circle thing that's like spinning and they're going to die and it's like very table. Yeah, that's what it looks like hanging them.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, it's like it's really sadistic.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Talk about antisocial personality disorder. Yeah, there it is.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Like an oogie boogie. But then he's also kind of like mesmerizing when he's like singing and dancing and serial. Yes, he totally sucking you in. Yeah, he had a beautiful singing voice.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: With you before you ultimately get killed.

Dr. Katrina Furey: For his own pleasure. Creepy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So then we have the three little.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The three little kids. Lock, shock, and barrel. What'd you think about that?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They were like, naughty, to say the least. I think we have both criteria kind of laid out of conduct disorder and Odd.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oppositional defiant disorder.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That first word always gets me oppositional, which and there is a difference. So it feels like meet more criteria for conduct just because there is that level of physical cruelty to people, physical cruelty to animals. It's a step further with actions often and intent than Odd. So, like, just a little rundown. Oppositional defiant disorder, it's like behavior lasting about six months. It's not just a temper tantrum.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This is in children, right, is when we diagnose it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Children and teens, they lose their temper. They often argumentative with adults. They defy or refuse to comply with rules or requests. They can deliberately be annoying. They blame others for their mistakes. They can be easily annoyed or touchy. They get pretty angry or resentful, and they can be spiteful or vindictive. So where it kind of becomes conduct disorder, so often there's first a diagnosis of Odd, which in its path to ultimately, I'd say, like antisocial personality disorder is an important diagnosis just because it kind of lays the groundwork. However, there is a big shift in the field with just overall less diagnoses of Odd. So you see a lot of typically, like, black youth coming into treatment with an Odd diagnosis, I think, like overly diagnosed and misdiagnosed.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. In certain patients of certain backgrounds. Some might call this racist, and I think it does get over diagnosed misdiagnosed in certain situations. Like when perhaps there could be some trauma going on. Absolutely. There could be add. Sometimes Add and Odd go together. So it is important to get an accurate, well rounded the child could be going through a big transition.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe their parents parents are getting divorced or something.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's good to ask why. Right. When did the behavior start? And maybe asking the child or the teen right. What's going on in your life? Not just like, oh, wow, you seem really kind of jerky right now and you're not listening to anyone. There's always really a reason. 90% of the time there is another better diagnosis than Odd explains the behavior or there's just like changes going on right. That they're reacting to. So that's where in the smaller, more rare cases that Odd then goes on to become conduct disorder. It's really what I would describe, at least in my understanding and experience with it. It's kind of like you get that icky feeling, your feelers go up. Yeah. This child, and I hate to say this or this teen is off in.

Dr. Katrina Furey: How they see the world and how.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They view others with their empathy or lack thereof. Oh, absolutely. Lack thereof. We talked about this in our episode.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we've talked about a couple on you. I think it came up.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We talked about this on the whale.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Kind of with the daughter, back and.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Forth with his daughter because there is some, we think, like alluding to animal cruelty.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So that's a big one.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's a big symptom with conduct disorder. And I sort of think of it as like when you have a patient who is committing crimes, often we will look to see, does that person meet criteria for antisocial personality disorder? Which unfortunately, I think increases their chance of committing more and more crimes because they don't have empathy or respect for how their actions affect other people. And a lot of times they get off on hurting other people, so they're not going to stop. And then if you trace it back, you will often see they did meet criteria for conduct disorder in later childhood, teenage, early adulthood, and then earlier than that probably met criteria for oppositional defiant disorder. So it's like most people with antisocial personality disorder will meet criteria for those things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The other way is not correct. True. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like if you maybe meet criteria for oppositional and defined disorder, that doesn't mean you're without a doubt going to meet criteria for antisocial personality disorder or be what we call like a sociopath. But once you get to conduct disorder, you start to get more nervous that that could happen. In my experience, when you see teenagers harming animals, like cats, birds, dogs, when you see them setting fires, when you see them also kind of like playing games with their peers, but pitting them against each other, they just start to sort of do these things that make you feel uneasy, and you start to see that they really struggle with empathy. And by that we mean like being able to put themselves in someone else's shoes and imagine or understand what it would feel like to be on the receiving end of an action. And they might get off on hurting people or animals.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And there might be there oftentimes is like a trauma underneath that. And I would say noting kind of back to the odd over diagnosis is like, you could argue that someone who is in a gang could meet criteria for conduct disorder. That's not the case. I wouldn't diagnose someone who's in a gang with conduct disorder. But you could be doing the same thing. So it's like that same question of like, okay, what's going on in your environment culturally? What's happening around you? How do you survive? Right? And so a lot of people sometimes have to do horrible things to survive because they think they have to do that to survive. That's not conduct disorder, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's where I'm like do Locks, shock and barrel meet criteria for conduct disorder? Or is this just like the norm in their culture of Halloween town? Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So some of the great point.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Criteria for conduct disorder are frequent bullying, often starting physical fights, using weapons, physical cruelty to people and animals, theft with confrontation of the victim. So it's not like stealing gum from the store.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's a good one.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's like armed robbery, being out late without permission, truancy from school, vandalism, breaking and entering, frequent manipulative, lying, covert stealing, forced sex, deliberate fire setting to cause harm, and running away from home overnight. So this is pretty severe. This is pretty severe stuff. And again, I don't remember off the top of my head how many criteria you have to meet or for what period of time, but I'd imagine, like, odd. It's persistent. So just like odd. Again, there's that time criteria of six months. It's not like a child going through a hard time or having some tantrums or just bullying.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We should not be doing it's, obviously, of course, unkind. And some people bully and they absolutely do not have conduct disorder.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And I think, again, a lot of people or children with conduct disorder have also been abused themselves. And they sort of become the abuser because that's what they've seen. That's what they know. That's how they finally feel powerful over someone else when they have felt so victimized themselves. So it's so complicated and complex and hard to treat and hard to sit with, I think, as a provider, trying to help patients with these sorts of things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Totally. So we also have the mayor of Halloween Town. He's a silly one, so he has two faces.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This is really interesting. They sort of flip back and forth really quickly depending on it seems like what he's feeling, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So it's like happy or distraught. And it's almost like what comes first, right? The feeling or the spin? And then he reacts that way. I think I'm using almost in a way that we kind of often critique people talking about bipolar, but I don't know, he has these two moods that kind of go back and forth sometimes. Maybe lasting the full day, maybe lasting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Two weeks, maybe lasting rapidly, spinning back and forth. Some mood label. And also, I think he's the mayor, so he's a politician. And I think a lot of people feel like politicians are two faced.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's kind of like a funny little jab, I guess. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But he's an interesting it's like I guess he's the one in power, but it just seems like Jack is all.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The jack is like the king and then there's the mayor almost, like in.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like is this like Parliament versus the royal family?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Seems like it like the royal family is in some ways differently beloved to them. And then Parliament is like, you know, the nitty gritty, who you're voting for? So I don't know. Jack's probably always been around. I wonder who was like, do they go on to rule together?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Is that like William and know? Maybe.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Could be.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe. And who came before. Like, what do you think was Jack's backstory if you had to fill in the gaps?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't like was he ever alive or was he always a skeleton? You know what I mean? You see a reef yard and then you see his dog who's a ghost. Who's a ghost. But were these ever I mean, they must have if I'm thinking scientifically. Or is this where you go? Is Halloween town like an afterlife place?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, that's an interesting idea. Or is it just like a different world? And that's just what they are, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Was he ever a child or was.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He always just a full on adult skeleton? Right. I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because you do see the kids there's the kids here that way forever.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Where are the kids parents, right? Why are they, like, running around with Okie Boogie and acting kind of like being taken advantage of? Which, again, I feel like getting back to kids with trauma or odd or conduct disorder, they can also be victimized at much higher rates, right. Because they're just at risk. They're in more harsh situations. Again, a lot of times, even if they meet this criteria, they have a history of abuse and so they might be drawn to feeling cared for or even just like, given attention, even if it's bad. Right. Sniff that out. Kind of like the chainsaw wielding people at the haunted hayrides could sniff out. You were the one to scare. A lot of times nefarious people, like sociopaths, can sniff out who is vulnerable to getting pulled in and they really get off on that. So it's like it makes me nervous. Like, where are their parents?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So let me ask you this. If you are living in what we know as kind of like regular world and Jack comes by for Christmas and drops off some of those gifts, how are you and your family coping with.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The aftermath of oh, my gosh. Right? I mean, I think I would normalize my children's reaction to being given, like, a duck that looks cute but then runs after you with fangs and is trying to eat you, or like a wreath coming out trying to strangle you. I would just be present with validating their fear. Right. I would hear what they have to say first, try to put words to their feelings and also say, like, gosh, if I were in that situation, I might feel scared or nervous or worried or I totally get it. Try to help them with that. Lot of reassurance that that's over. Things are safe now. I'm here to protect you. They might be mad at me if they felt like I wasn't there to protect them and I should have been. Make space for that and sort of sit with it. That can be hard, I think, as a parent. And then I would imagine they'd have some symptoms of an acute stress reaction. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Might be a little afraid of going near the fireplace. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Or the Christmas tree.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, my God.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I hope it wouldn't ruin Christmas forever. They might have trouble sleeping for a little while. I might sleep with them for a little while and kind of I would probably tell their school so that the school counselors and stuff could check in on them, tell their teacher or other important adults in their life. And then I'd have a very low threshold to seek out some type of therapy to kind of help them and help me help them and then kind of see what happens. And I think a lot of many children are very resilient. Absolutely. So the hope is that with time, they can process it and move through it and then in future years, for future Christmases, if they were showing some avoidance, I would try to challenge it in, like, a gentle way. But to again keep reinforcing, that they are safe now in hopes of mitigating any risk for a PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder kind of thing. I hope that's the right way to handle. Great answer. Oh, my God. Thanks. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think the most important piece being is just, like, acknowledging them and their concerns and not dismissing them. Right. So instead of saying, like, that didn't happen, or, that's not scary at all.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Everything's fine, everything's fine.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Get over it. You're taking the time to be like, yeah, that was really scary. Let's talk about it if you want to. And then typically, like you said, most kids are okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And if they can't talk about it yet, depending on how young they are, depending how upsetting it is, drawing with them is really helpful. So I learned this cool technique in my training from a child psychiatrist where he would sit with a kid, and I always was like, Child psychiatry looks so cool because you basically play that looks cool. But he would sit with a kid, and they'd share a piece of paper, and he'd draw a line, and he would have the child make one drawing, and then he would do the next move, and they would make a picture together, kind of. And as they were doing it, he would talk with them and ask, like, well, why did you do this? Why did you use that color? Why that shape? And just over time, it's like a nice way to do something, like, basic and safe and something like all kids kind of know how to do, like, drawing together. You get a lot out of the child. It's really hard to just sit and do, like, talk therapy with little kids, so that's an interesting way. Or just asking them to draw something and just sort of being curious about it together, I think, can be also helpful and a good way of processing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Using figures, whether it's, like, little animals or dolls or Lego characters to act out what they're feeling, they might be able. To do something with the little doll that they are not going to do themselves. Wow. Okay. Now I'm understanding more. There's so much within child therapy, psychiatry that is so special and unique. And also sometimes we use it with adults oh, 100%.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And with play, children playing. There's so much going on within their play. And I think it's really interesting to just kind of be attuned to what they're talking about, what they're acting at, what they're trying to work through or sort through. It can be really fascinating, sometimes disturbing. And I think we see with other horror movies when there's like the child with the dark drawings and they're possessed, it does come out.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks for listening to this episode. I certainly had fun being by being open now to this new holiday movie. So keep with family. We have a lot of fun content coming also over the next couple of months. So doing some silly maybe travel stuff with movies and family.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Home alone.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Chaos. We have certainly some more, I guess, traditional holiday movies coming up in December, but thanks for listening. Be sure to like us on TikTok and Instagram. We make some content there with just some extra info. If you want to check us out over there at Analyze Scripts Podcast. We do have a website and an email. If you're looking for more of a professional inquiry, we are happy to provide some information or cross podcasts.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So check us out and please reach out and let us know what you'd like us to cover next and what you think about this movie.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: If you're like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Portia is totally freaked out. If you're like me, who can't wait to watch it every year. All right, see you next Monday. Bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine.

Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Don't.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are analyzing the 2007 film "Awake." This movie stars Hayden Christensen, Jessica Alba and Terrence Howard. There is a nefarious plot to kill Clay who finds out during surgery. According to our guest, Dr. Gonzalez from the Yale Anesthesia Department, Clay experiences intraoperative awareness AKA "awareness" during surgery.  The movie is filled with plot holes and some pretty inaccurate medical information. We learn so much from Dr. Gonzalez about anesthesia and patient pain. PTSD, medical factiods and financial stressors are topics in this episode. We hope you enjoy!

Dr. Gonzalez Podcast Episode on Interoperative Awareness

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Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts. And if someday we pay off our.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM Five, and enjoy. Welcome back for another very exciting episode of Analyze Scripts. As part of our Halloween month today, we are covering the 2007 thriller mystery movie called Awake with our wonderful guest, Dr. Antonio Gonzalez. And I cannot think of anything scarier than being awake during a surgery, so this is perfect for our Halloween month. But just as a quick bio, dr. Gonzalez is an associate professor of anesthesiology and the director of the Obstetrics anesthesia Fellowship at Yale New Haven Hospital. He completed his residency program at Rutgers in New Jersey and decided to pursue a fellowship in obstetric anesthesia at Columbia University in New York. And I will actually be joining one of his podcasts in the near future to talk about eternal mental health and anesthesia, which I'm really excited about. But thank you so much, Dr. Gonzalez, for joining us.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm really happy to be here with you today.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So, Portia, where do we even get started with this movie? Have you seen it before?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I have not seen the movie ever. I think that something like this would probably have been a little scary to watch. Yeah, I think a lot of people who are not in medicine and maybe people who are in medicine, I think it's a common fear to wake up during surgery. I think a lot of people going in get really calmed down once talking to the anesthesiologist or telling them that this is their process or this is.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: How it's going to be.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And all of the machines and monitors that they now have, you were saying a little bit before we got started today. So I think this is just like a pretty common fear that people have going into surgery.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What do you think, Dr. Gonzalez?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yes, I think that definitely introvertive awareness. It's definitely a fear of our patients. And unfortunately, this movie actually may have hyped that fear. But fortunately, the reality is that introvertive awareness is relatively rare, particularly these days. We have way better medications, way better monitors that help us to prevent intraperative awareness. The incidence has been documented to be somewhere around 0.1% to 0.2% in the United States.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So what is that, like, one to two out of 1000 cases? Something like that?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: That is correct, yeah. Because there are so many surgeries in the united States, that's about 20,000 to 40,000 cases a year, which still a lot. Right. The consequences of interoperative awareness can go from just having fear of future surgeries, even withholding surgeries for some of their relatives, particularly their kids, because they are so scared of what happened to them, they may actually be very fearful of letting their relatives go through surgery. Yeah. So that is one of the consequences. But, again, it's relatively rare these days.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Okay. Dr. Gonzalez.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Is there anything in common.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That the people who this happens to.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: With each other, or is it just kind of like yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Is there, like, a way to predict it that it could?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: So we don't have particularly great ways of predicting who will have operative awareness. We do know that there is a certain patient population or certain surgeries. So there are surgeries like trauma, cardiac surgery, and Obstetric. Anesthesia. Obstetric cases seem to be and when I mean Obstetric cases, Caesarean deliveries, particularly. These are cases that are very well known to have an increased risk of intraperative awareness. The reason behind it is because trauma patient and cardiac patients have a very delicate hemodynamics, meaning their blood pressure, it's low, tends to be on the lower side. They have a high risk of coronary vascular disease. So having their blood pressure too high or too low, it's at extreme risk. So in order to maintain that balance between the anesthesia that it's provided and the hemodynamics, those patients tend to be at a higher risk. And that implies for both trauma patients and cardiac patients. Now, the Obstetric patient population is at increased risk because of the risk that the anesthesiologist may perceive from the drugs transferring to the baby. So all the medications we give to mom will go to baby, and that increase in medications has been thought to be pretty dangerous to the baby. So anesthesiologists at some point, we're very scared of giving extra medications to mom nowadays. Again, I think that because our monitoring and the drugs that we have available and the awareness that introvertive awareness in this particular patient population, it's higher, we have improved the techniques that we have for providing general anesthesia. Now, that being said, we do a lot of our anesthesia under regional, and having pain during a surgery, even with epidural or a spinal, can be equally as scary, if not even more scary than having introvertive awareness while asleep.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I was wondering that. So, before we get into this a little further, I just want to give a quick recap of the plot of this movie. So, in the movie Awake, we see Hayden Christensen playing the main character, Clay Bearsford Jr. Who is, like a fancy pants financial person, super uber rich. He does something with stocks, probably, that I don't understand. And you see this interesting relationship with his mom early on, who's played her name's Lilith, and she's played by Lena Olin. And then we see Jessica Alba. This is one of her big roles, playing Sam Lockwood, who's his fiance. They get married very quickly because he is waiting for a cardiac transplant due to history of cardiomyopathy, which is something that happens. That seemed pretty accurate. And then we see Terrence Howard playing his friend and surgeon, Dr. Jack Harper. And spoiler alert, turns out all of the medical professionals on the team, including his fiance, were in on this plot to murder him during the transplant in order to inherit all his money and pay off some malpractice debt. Luckily, I think it was the anesthesiologist. The original one backed out. So this other guy was there, and somehow he figured out the plot, and he alerted authorities. And eventually, I think Dr. Harper injected the heart with adriamycin. I believe the Clay did, I guess, technically die on the table. When they delivered that news to his family, the mother committed suicide. I can't remember what she overdosed on. I'm assuming maybe Digoxin, which was in his bag. And then they wheeled the mom in and gave him her heart. And so he survived, and all the people got arrested. The end. That's basically the plot. Really quick. So getting back to what you were saying, Dr. Gonzalez, about the intraoperative awareness. So when you were saying that with these certain cases, trauma, cardiac, and OB with regional anesthesia, I'm thinking like an epidural, like for a C section or something like that. Like, if they give the epidural and it fails either in a C section or a regular delivery, vaginal delivery, would that be considered interoperative awareness?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Well, if the patient is experiencing pain, yes, that can be as traumatic as experiencing intraperative awareness, because the patient mentally is completely there, but the patient is completely feeling the experience of the pain. And the definition of pain, actually, it's not only physical, but there is an emotional component to pain. Right. So what you describe as pain, you can only be the person that knows what pain is for you. So what we've learned through the years is that we are not the best judge of what pain is. The patient is the best judge of what pain is because pain is what the patient tells you pain is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'm so glad you said that.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think that's really important and to keep in mind the emotional side of it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I like that also, just as I don't know a similarity right. In mental health, like pain mental pain, emotional pain is, like, what the patient is describing versus my definition in the DSM. But I really like that. Or just validating their experience. Well, this is what they experienced. Maybe someone else's was different.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I really like that.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yeah. I think that it's a great opportunity, because, as you mentioned, sometimes if, as physicians, we try to give an explanation to pain, right. We may actually minimize the patients. And at the end of the day, what ends up happening is that the patients feels that their feelings, they're being gaslighted. So the patient is telling you, this is what I feel, and you say, well, it's not that big of a deal. Right. But it is to the patient, it is. So pain is, again, what the patient tells you pain is.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, I think that's great. And in my line of work, in private practice, I do end up seeing well, I see primarily women around pregnancy and postpartum. So I've heard many cases where the epidural failed, or it only took on half the side, or someone had a history of back surgery, so they met with the anesthesiologist ahead of time to talk about pain management options. And it is a super important aspect of prenatal care, especially delivery, and I'm sure that extends to other surgeries as well. So, Dr. Gonzalez, what are your thoughts about the way anesthesia was depicted in this movie? What they get right, what they get wrong?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Well, there are so many things that they well, the one thing that they got right was to select the patient that was having a cardiac surgery. As we mentioned, patients with cardiac surgery have an increased risk of having introvertive awareness. So they got that one part right. Then the other thing is that it seems like they have a substitute anesthesiologist that's coming from another institution. It doesn't quite happen that way. You need to have privileges at that place. It's a little credentialed. Yeah. Unless he's a traveler. Sometimes we have anesthesiologists that are considered what is the term? Locums. That's correct, yes. So locums might have been a locums that they call in to substitute, but it's actually quite hard to find locums for very specific cardiac surgery. So I think that the other thing that I think was very wrongfully depicted was how easy he may look. The induction. The induction was basically he took this three CC syringe or four CC syringe. He gave it to the patient. He said, count back to ten. Cardiac inductions are very complicated. It requires a balance of many medications. Again, because there is this hemodynamic balance that you want to maintain. You don't want the patient's blood pressure to go too high. Do you want the patient's blood pressure to go too low? So that also it seems like it was completely off. And there is a point where the surgeons are discussing, like, well, we won't need you for a little bit, so go get a drink. We never leave the operating room.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: I know there is always somebody from anesthesia in the room that be like the anesthesiologist or anesthetist, but we just don't leave the patient in the or. Just because the surgeon tells us that they're not going to need us for a bit. So that was totally wrong.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. In my experience in medical school, rotating through that's exactly right. Even these long cases like cardiothoracic surgery, the anesthesiologist, maybe a resident, maybe the nurse, anesthetist. These words are hard to say. Someone's always there watching the monitor. They might be doing something else at the same time. I remember one time there was a resident practicing his golf swing, and I was like, this seems pretty unprofessional. But they're always watching the monitors. And I would imagine like this, especially watching the blood pressure, the heart rate, things like that. And they're always checking. They kept checking, at least in the cases I would be in, they would do things to check. The patient was still under enough. Not too far under. Not coming out of it either.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yes. And as you mentioned, sometimes the anesthesiologist, a lot of what we do, we may not be actually looking at the monitors, but because we're actually trained for so it's a three year program. By the sound of the machines, you actually know what is wrong. Like the pulse oximeter has a very typical sound. When the saturation drops, the alarms on the monitors are set off to go at X levels. Right. So you can set up your alarms. So even if we're like, let's say, fixing our medication drips or we're working on something that it's not necessarily looking at the monitor, just hearing the monitor, we are aware of what actually the vital signs are, and of course, the alarms are ever present. So we're always very aware of these alarms and everything that surrounds. We use pretty much all our senses when caring for patients.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That makes a lot of sense.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's interesting. I think there was an episode on Grey's Anatomy years ago about the anesthesiologist at the hospital was like, has a substance use disorder. And he was, like, falling asleep next to the patient. And of course, it's a drama, so the young resident had to do something and didn't want to get in trouble by the attending or something. But I feel like I've seen not a lot of medical dramas. I mean, that's not like my jam. But the couple that I have there seems to always be the anesthesiologist is like sometimes a villain. I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Is that a stereotype? Yeah. Is that a stereotype?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Or like, maybe just in TV, the.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Psychopath is often the villain too, so we can empathize.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it seems like it's a lot of risk with that job.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: I think that psychiatrists, dentists, and anesthesiologist seems to be the highest the physicians with the highest incidence of substance use.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Disorder, I believe that's right, yeah.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: And suicide as well, I think. Yeah. Maybe media has picked up on that. Maybe.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Interesting. I think in my training, I was taught that in those specialties, you have the easiest access to controlled substances in terms of the risk of substance use disorders. So that's one reason the rates are higher. And then suicide. I didn't know anesthesiologists also had a high rate of suicide.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yeah. I haven't reviewed the statistics on this, but I think that it used to be that way. I think actually, dentists might be number one. For some strange reason, anesthesiologists are high up in there.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: One big issue I had with this movie was the plot, because I feel like they went to great lengths to pay off a prior malpractice lawsuit. And I feel like they'd all have malpractice insurance, right? Even if I know there's certain specialties. Like, I think OB, for example, has a really high rate of malpractice insurance. Wouldn't they have malpractice to cover any claims?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yes, they would.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Think. And Portia, I think you were reading some criticisms of the movie. I think the general public also caught on to that, like, wow, this is like a really intricate plot to go through to pay off prior lawsuits.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. Murdering someone, you have to be so backed into the corner hopeless, like no other options. And it's like, I mean, A, yeah, like, you're right about the malpractice. You should have an insurance through the hospital. You're not even in private practice paying for your own, and that maybe you cut corners with that. It just seems OD that they taking going to these lengths of murdering a patient that Dr. Jack Harper was, like, friend. And it's like, at what point did the friendship turn into this? Was it fake? The whole, like, I think that's know, I watched the movie, you know, taking.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Notes because we're professionals.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We're professionals at watching TV here, and I was just lost with a lot of the line, so I'm glad to hear it know, I guess just me, but pretty gaping holes in some of it.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. And what did you think about that relationship of the friendship between Dr. Harper and Know? Because at least in psychiatry, we are big and not just psychiatry, but mental health in general, we are big boundary people. We really talk about boundaries and how to maintain them, especially in professional settings. I think in some other fields of medicine, I'm thinking more like primary care pediatrics in the old school days when you'd have the family doctor who took care of everyone in the town, I think the boundaries would have been a little different. But I always thought, especially when it came to things like surgery, it was really important not to operate or doing a seizure on people you're close to. Is that still the case?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Well, I think it's probably the right thing to do because your feelings for your significant other or friend may actually interfere with your judgment. But again, I think it's more of a judgment call than a set rule. I do think that there are certain surgeries and certain procedures that we probably shouldn't be doing for our family members or for close friends, because, again, our judgment may be cloud by our feelings for that person. You may not necessarily take the best decision when you're put in that place.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I think suturing up a superficial wound like your child cuts their knee. Oh, I can suture that up real quick. Feels very different to me than doing cardiac anesthesia or surgery on your buddy that you go fishing with. Yeah, right. Yeah, I would agree.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I could see I was thinking just, like, what would I be comfortable with a friend doing? But maybe I don't know. I mean, I'm thinking of specialties, like, ortho I could see a friend doing but not OB. It's, like, all private, and then definitely not psychiatry, but I don't know. Cardiac surgery? I don't think cardiac no, it's like your heart opening my chest. I don't want you I think it's.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Important you feel like you trust the surgeon and the anesthesiology team, but to have it be like your buddy, that's risky. And what an ultimate betrayal.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, he trusted this person. He chose to have this procedure done by, I guess, at least rating wise, like a doctor with a lower success rate than right. The mom brought in this specialist who was operating on presidents and had all.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This prestige play picked Dr. Harper.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then right. To have this nefarious plot going on was just I was really shocked. I was also really shocked that Sam was in on it, his fiance, because at first, I think the movie kind of sets you up to not, like the mom. Right. Like, Lilith seems, you know, like, she doesn't have his best interests at heart.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's controlling. Maybe they're enshring and not letting him.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Live or be independent. Right. But then know, I was like, wow, really weaseled her way in. So I don't but she was a nurse, I think, so she had some info about his medications, which the mom, Lilith, was first, really surprised and pleased. Like, wow, like, you really have been taking care of him. I see all the medications in your bag. But then that's also ultimately how she found out that Sam was in on it. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: She saw, like, I think Sam left her purse behind, and the medications fell out. And when she went to go put everything back in the purse, she saw some mail where the name didn't match up, and then somehow she put it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Together, but that wasn't clear.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But again, also like, okay, so the names don't match up. That wouldn't automatically make me think, like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, no, you're in on it to.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Murder my son while he's in this heart transplant. The plot was a little far fetched, but I did think it was entertaining, and I did know with Clay on the table, often the anesthesiologist is, like, the first person you meet when you're coming in for surgery that day and.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The first person you see when you wake up.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So I think that's very important, as well, to your whole experience of surgery. And can you tell us a little bit, Dr. Gonzalez, about in your role, what that entails and how you sort of take care of the patient in broad strokes. And if this movie we've already talked about how the induction was totally off, but what the movie sort of got right and wrong.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yeah. So I think that the role of the anesthesiologist is very important. And I think that as anesthesiologist, we realize that, as you mentioned, unfortunately, the way our system is, we usually meet our patients just the day of surgery, right? So what that entails is that we actually need to create rapport with our patients very quickly. We know that the patients are coming in for a very stressful moment in their life. Sometimes it's very big surgery, sometimes it's very minor surgeries, right? But independently of what type of surgery the patients are coming for, we need to create that rapport and we need to bring the confidence to the patient. And as anesthesiologist, I think that we try to do that the moment we're talking to the patient. The first time we talk to the patients, it's all about creating rapport and creating a team experience in which you let me know what are your goals and we can try to meet those goals and expectations. What are your fears? Some patients tell you that their major fear is pain. Some patients tell you their major fear is throwing up because all the nausea, they've experienced so much nausea after. So then you can reassure the patient, okay, so this is our plan. This is going to be our plan to address the pain. This is going to be our plan to address the nausea. And again, we do this for all types of surgery. And I think that's very important as anesthesiologist to try to create that rapport and always be, when talking to the patient, basically addressing what are your major fears and how this is our plan to address those.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's such an important question. I think such an important part of the team. I think other people are just kind of part of the team, which makes sense. Like, okay, this is a surgery. They ask you a million questions like why are you here? What's your name? What's your birthday? Over and over again. So they're doing the right thing. But then for someone to ask, right, what are you scared of?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: What are you scared of today? How can we help you? Do you have any questions? Is really helpful. And I think just lets see the patient feel like they're a part of the team, like they're being validated, listened to, important, which of course they are. But I think in the system when you have maybe two to five, maybe surgeries that day, it's just like it becomes for everybody that's working, there just procedure. So I think those questions just stand out as really helpful and nice, good patient care.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And the anesthesiologist is the person who you really meet at the beginning, who asks you all these questions, checks on your allergies, looks in your mouth to see like, okay, how big are those tonsils? How are we going to sort of intubate? You most comfortably asks you what you're worried about, and then they walk with you in most of the time, and they're with you, getting you on the table, getting you positioned, making sure you're comfortable, saying, okay, it's going to be cold in here, let's put a blanket on. They do a lot of that caretaking right away. I think when people are really scared, even if it's a minor surgery, I don't know who's not scared when they're going into a surgery. And of course, the surgeon comes in and they're really focused on the surgery, and of course, they want to make the experience good, too. But you're usually, like with the anesthesiologist, I think, the longest as you're consciously awake and then coming out of the surgery, that's who's also waking you up and making sure you're okay. That's who's checking on you in post op and things like that. So it is interesting that such an important member of the team and you're right, you really meet them that day and then you don't see them again, right? Like at the follow up for the surgery and stuff, you never get to see them. Is that a part of the job? Do you mind that, or do you wish that you could check on these people again?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Well, it's actually very interesting that you ask because one of the things that actually inspired me to become an obstetric anesthesiologist, particularly, was I sometimes felt that I was in these very long surgeries, and when I went to see the patients post op, they would not remember me. And there wasn't really a problem with the patient not remembering me. It wasn't really an ego thing. It was more like, I don't feel like he thinks I'm part of this team taking care of him. I didn't feel like I was part of the team again. But on the other hand, I just happened to see a patient in a hallway and he's like, oh, you did my epidural for labor. And I'm like, oh, I did. And that was like, oh, these patients do remember me. Do appreciate what we're doing. And although, again, it's not an ego thing, but it's just that feeling of being part of something more, like, you know, that you help somebody and they actually remember that you were part of that, alleviating the pain, and it just feels good. It makes you feel like you're really part of a team that addresses the patient's pain and all this. And that's what really brought me into obstetric anesthesia. Going back to what we were talking about, the patients, the pre op part. Again, because of my obstetric anesthesia background, most of the literature that I've reviewed is on that field. And there is a very interesting article that has changed the way I practice that basically addressed what we were just discussing, which was basically, you ask the patients would you rather have better analgesia or more side effects, depending on the dose? And the interesting thing it's a very interesting study, but the outcome of the study was that patients actually knew exactly what they wanted. The patients that were overly concerned about pain ended up consuming more pain medication. And the patients that were overly concerned with the side effects did not consume as many medications. So the patients always know. And that's why always asking your patients, what are your weigh the risk and benefits, or what are your main outcomes? What do you want to experience here? More pain, slightly less pain, slightly more side effects of the medications, or you're okay with pain knowing that your side effects are going to be less?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: The patients know that's actually really interesting and really important to keep sort of their autonomy and their preferences. So, Dr. Gonzalez, I know you're not like a transplant surgeon, but I thought it was pretty unlikely that the mother would just be, like, wheeled in, especially after having overdosed on something and her heart would be given right to her son.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What do you think about that?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yeah, absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. And at some point, I was hoping to bring that up. First of all, as you mentioned, there is a battery of tests that the donor needs to go through before they can be a donor.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's number one blood type, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's not just like, oh, it's a blood type match. There's like, so many more things they have to check.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: There's so many more tests. And it seems from the movie that the mom have actually taken the purse from Sam, right? So presumably she took medications that could have actually make her heart stop. Right, which means that the period of ischemia of the heart may not have make her a good donor for her heart. She might have been able to donate her cornea and other things that actually don't have a very specific ischemia time. But there are organs that have a very limited ischemia time, meaning that the time that the organ is without perfusion or without oxygenation, without blood flow. And that is very important. The heart is one of the organs that needs perfusion for very crucial timing. It's a very small window of ischemia for the heart yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That she'd take, again, cardiac medication that likely stopped her heart. It does seem like she called her surgeon of choice ahead of time and was like, get here now. We only have so much time. But still, it's just completely unlikely that that would have happened. It was kind of a beautiful, I guess, part of the story that they could both, in this other realm, connect with each other and she could talk to him and they got to say this goodbye. That was pretty beautiful. But in terms of accuracy, there's no way that would have happened. And so getting. Back to the title of the movie Awake, and the whole premise that he's awake in surgery and aware of everything that's going on. I think a fascinating question that comes to my mind is like, how do we define awake? Is it consciousness? Is it memory? Is it feeling? And then how do you assess it during and after something like a major surgery?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. And I was thinking myself the same thing throughout the movie. And at the end, I'm still not even clear that either he was awake. We probably will never know the answer, according to the movie. But interoperative awareness, it's basically the incidence of a failure to suppress arousal, experience and episodic memory. So for you to have recall, in order for you to have introoperative awareness, there has to be recall. There are some incidents of patients actually hearing things, but they may not have necessarily distress about it because hearing and depth of sedation, the depth of sedation goes anywhere from hearing to actually not even being able to have recall. So you're going to see the worst cases of interoperative awareness when there is recall, and the patient can actually tell you how stressed they were about the experience. So they've come up with some classification. It's called the Michigan Awareness Classification, and it goes from zero, class zero, which is basically no awareness, to class one, which is auditory perceptions, class two, which is tactile perception. So they feel the surgical manipulation, they feel the endotracheal tube. And then there is class three, which is they actually feel pain. Class four, they actually have paralysis. And this is what seems to actually be happening here. He's experiencing paralysis because he said, just move something, right? He's trying to move something. He can't move anything. So he probably is there at a class four. Later on, we know that he's definitely at class five, where he's probably experiencing pain and paralysis. And then you can actually assign a D if the patient tells you that it was very stressful. They have the fear, they had fear, they had anxiety, a sense of suffocation or doom. So basically all these classifications, you can actually add a D to them. And the higher they are, and especially if they have a D next to them, the more likely these patients will have sequela. As in your profession, you can probably talk about what happens to these patients that have interpreted awareness. Right? And you were talking about moms that have pain during surgery. So that could lead to post traumatic stress disorder. But I'm not the expert there.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I would imagine it would. Right. I would imagine when we think about post traumatic stress disorder, I like to think of that as a disorder of Stuckness. And I always tell my patients, like, it's normal after you've lived through something traumatic, to have the symptoms of PTSD, the hyperarousal, the hyper, vigilance, intrusive thoughts, altered avoidance, altered mood, altered line of thinking and things like that initially, because who wouldn't? We sort of call that an acute stress response. But then once it persists, usually after, like, a month or continues beyond that, then we start to think of it as something called PTSD or post traumatic stress disorder. And there's some really great treatments out there for that, including things like cognitive processing therapy or CPT, EMDR, different types of psychotherapies and medications, and patients can really get a lot better. I love treating PTSD for that reason. But I would imagine the first criterion to meet diagnostic criteria for PTSD is to have a life threatening situation happen to you or to be vicariously exposed to it, which I think is really important as a new addition to the DSM criteria. I think this will qualify.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I'm just even imagining a patient coming in and describing this. I would expect a person to develop PTSD from it, and then it's like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Is that a disorder, or is that, like, a normal human response to being consciously awake but paralyzed during cardiac surgery? Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's where you're like, well, like, trouble sleeping following. I would imagine maybe some nightmares. Might be afraid to fall asleep 100%. Or obviously, like you were saying before, Dr. Gonzalez, afraid of returning for future medical care or surgeries or telling loved ones to not do it, or their experience. So it feels really serious. And obviously, many traumas can be, but also unique. I haven't worked with someone that this has occurred to, obviously, because it is rare, but I'm just imagining, like, poor Clay when he wakes up, and if he does recall at one of those levels that you described, then what? And also write the murder plot. I mean, that was like taking the cake, let alone feeling pain.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know. Like, such intense pain, right. And being so paralyzed and helpless. I almost can't imagine anything worse.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's standing up. We talked a little bit about the dissociation. That being an interesting way to show it. So sometimes when somebody's experiencing a trauma, they might dissociate and kind of see.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Themselves from up above. And they did show that when he sort of zoomed out, then it took a turn where he's then solving the.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Plot, like, walking around, figuring it out.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like, I don't think yeah, that's not quite dissociation, but up until that point.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was a great depiction of.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: It.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just it was wild.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was wild. What a wild movie. Dr. Gonzalez, as we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to add or anything we haven't touched on that you think is important?

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: What it's really important here is for the patients to really voice out their experience. Right. One of the things that we see as physicians, we're not necessarily, particularly not psychiatrists or psychologists, we are not necessarily very well versed in how to deal with the consequences of what happens interoperatively. And it's important for the patients to say, hey, this is what I felt. But equally as important is for physicians to actually avoid minimizing what the patient felt and actually acknowledge that something happened and say, hey, I'm really sorry that you went through this. Let's try to figure out what resources we have to help you to get better, to get through these. It's actually something that I've always wondered is when is the best time to reach out for the patients? When, for example, in our case, we do C sections, right? And the patients are telling us that they're feeling pain, so they actually quickly voice out their experience so we can quickly do something about it. And even then, it's hard to figure out if you should approach the patient, shouldn't approach the patient, because not every patient won't consider a short time of discomfort or pain as traumatic. So it's a thin line in which basically we rely on the patient telling us, this is what I felt, this is how I feel now, so that we can actually look for help again, because as anesthesiologist or, surgeons may not be the best person to deal with it, but we can look for the resources.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I do think, actually, at least in my clinical experience, given what I do, it has been I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, it has been so validating and healing for my patients who have experienced trauma within previous childbirth deliveries or IVF procedures or other things like that, who felt minimized by the team at the time when they go in for the next thing and their anesthesiologist is the one who asks them just the questions you're mentioning. Now, I'm wondering if it was you.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Or if you've just trained, like, some.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Really good team members. But when they ask them about these things and they share their prior traumatic experience, which is very hard for them, right, like, to even share, period, but then, especially if they've felt minimized or invalidated in the past, when they share it this time, and it's met with compassion and validation, it goes so far in their healing. And so I think you're spot on, and I hope this can serve and your continuing education can serve to just keep reinforcing that to the anesthesiology team that that is really important and such a crucial time to give that validation to patients who might really need it. And I think that would go for any patient, but especially any patient with a history of PTSD prior to that. And that's a hard thing to ask about.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I could definitely see it in pregnancy traumas. I think it's a pretty common experience with just, like, whether or not it's their perspective of something happening. Everything moves fast sometimes, as both of you know, I'm sure if it's supposed to be a regular delivery and all of a sudden it's not like that can be scary. And sometimes you have to prioritize saving a patient so things aren't explained slowly. It's the after of, like, okay, I know. That was really scary.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Kind of debriefing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, the debrief I would imagine being really helpful.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And we always I think in mental health, we always assume our patients have a trauma history rather than assume they don't. And I don't think that's because there's like I mean, maybe there is a higher incidence given the patients we're seeing. But I think then if you can just sort of approach it in more of like a trauma informed framework and just assume, like, okay, let's just assume this person has had some experience in their life where they felt helpless or stuck or not heard. How do we approach them here so that they don't feel that you don't even have to ask, do you have a trauma history? You could just assume. And then I think that just goes a really far away. So I'm so glad, Dr. Gonzalez, to hear that you're just doing know that makes this psychiatrist very happy.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yeah, well, I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that some time ago, we actually read this very nice article that came out that was titled Failure of Communication, and it was actually written by a patient who experienced interoperative pain. I actually had the pleasure to have a podcast with Susanna Stanford, who is a patient who experienced introvertive pain, and she shared with us through that paper that was a couple of years ago, her experience. And from the time I read that paper, I started realizing how important that communication part is and not minimizing their pain and actually trying to address the situation in the moment and offering alternatives. Right. The most important thing, as you mentioned, is the patient needs to feel that first of all, they're being heard and that their concerns will be addressed. The worst we can do is tell them that it's not that big of a deal. Baby is okay. That's usually what we hear. Oh, the baby's okay. So it's going to be fine. The means doesn't justify the end.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Well, that's wonderful. Thank you so much, Dr. Gonzalez, for joining us today. I think we will try to link to that paper in our show Notes. If anyone is interested in reading that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Further and maybe also your podcast, if you want to tell us, give us.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: A little shout out yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Where they can find your podcast.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: Yes, the podcast is Yale Anesthesiology, and I will share the link as well.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Thank you. And we want to thank all of our listeners for joining us today. You can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram and TikTok. We recently updated our Instagram handle, so now it's Analyze Scripts podcast across the board, and we hope that you will join us next week as we cover the Nightmare Before Christmas on our Halloween month.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So we'll see you next Monday.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Bye.

Dr. Antonio Gonzalez, MD: All right. Thank you so much for having me. This was great. Thank you.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Our don't.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we review "The Morning Show" season 2. This season is pretty heavy with themes of substance abuse, toxic relationships and Mitch Kessler's [SPOILER ALERT] death by suicide. We spend time discussing cancel culture and the complexities of the human experience. We also explore Cory's charcter, is he hypomanic? Or is it more of an ADHD presentation we are seeing? Who does Bradley choose? Is everyone in love with their mother? Listen now to your favorite TV loving shrinks for our full break down. We hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And your DSM Five and enjoy. We get started. We just wanted to include a trigger warning for this episode. This episode could include discussion about some themes and topics that might be upsetting, including, but not limited to things like substance abuse, suicide, self harm, disordered, eating, and harassment and assault. So if any of those topics are too upsetting, we totally get it. Please feel free to skip this episode and join us next week. Otherwise, we hope you enjoyed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Thanks for joining us today to cover the Morning Show season Two. If you have not listened to our take on season one, feel free to scroll back a couple episodes in our feed. Season two did come out in September of 2021, which was kind of in, like right. The throes still of COVID I mean, not like the Lockdown, which this show oh, my God. With that visual of New York City, which was eerie, to say the least. But did you watch this in real time?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, I think I watched it last year, maybe, but rewatching it again. I had, like, a visceral reaction to all of the COVID stuff. What about you?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was weird. I really like and we talked about this about season one, how they show, right? Like, real time things. And it's so funny thinking back to hearing about, you know, it was like, in more of the Asian countries in Asia. It was kind of, like, sprinkling through. And I remember having some friends traveling internationally and being like, yeah, it was weird. Like, a lot of people are wearing masks, not domestically. And then all of a sudden, it was here, right? And it was like this very March white. I don't know, like, the grocery stores were full, and then they were empty. Schools were open and they were closed. It wasn't a smooth transition. Oh, this is coming. It was just like, okay, we're making this decision.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, my gosh. I remember I'm so ashamed to admit this, but I was supposed to go on a bachelorette party to New Orleans, like, right in mid March, and it was for my very good friend, Dr. Kristen Heisel, an infectious disease physician at Mass General Hospital, so you can imagine what her March 2020 turned into. But as the news of COVID was, like, trickling in, I remember sitting in the psychiatrist talking to a colleague being like, this is just going to be like ebola where we all freaked out. And then it was fine. And I was like, trying to tell myself this because I really wanted to go on this Bachelorete trip and I feel so selfish saying that. Should we cut that? Like, does that make me look at.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I can share a similar thing.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But then my friend kristen called me after they had this super secret meeting at MGH and was like, we're not like, you need to go to the grocery store immediately. This is like a really big deal. Harvard is preparing. They've talked to like, this is going to be a really serious thing. And I was like, oh, my god. And then two days later, yeah, everything shut down.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's funny because I was in DC. In February, like mid February, and there was still nothing. I don't know which speech I know that's not the right word for it was happening, but everyone in congress and the senate were there and it was really busy and it was fine. The airports were all good. But then I ended up having to come back from puerto Rico early. So I've told this story, obviously to my friends, but for my new friends out there listening. So we had been here and meeting family down in puerto Rico who had missed it by three days of what was kind of happening. And we were like, should we go? Should we not? And we're on the airplane, it's about to take off. They shut the door and everyone's like, phone alerts start to go off if you have news alerts. And it was that all international travel was stopped and we weren't going internationally. But I was immediately like, I need to get off this plane. Obviously I couldn't. So we went to Puerto Rico. We told our family that was down there and they just did not get it's. The like, this isn't a big deal. Why is everyone up there freaking out? Brian were like, my partner and I were like, how can you not understand? The grocery stores are empty. So we ended up flying home early and thank goodness we did because the island closed down. There was a ship in the port there from Italy that had some italian travelers that were sick and so it was just chaos. And then I remember coming back to work on Monday and we closed, right? So we had this meeting of how we were going to handle it. Everyone took their laptops and we went home. And then I never went back to that job.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, it was scary. I don't know, I feel like triggered watching this show and all the COVID stuff. It's like hard for me to watch. I notice kind of like not looking at the empty street. It's just like really hard for me to watch. I thought they did a magnificent job, though, covering it and how they had Daniel, the lone wolf, sort of like raising the alarm and seeing how Mia, who's now in Chip's old role, is kind know, not covering, know, choosing other stories to cover instead. And then they send him to China, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And he is just like in the throes of it being like, this is serious. They keep giving him a short segment, they cut his segment, he's like but.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It'S so symbolic of how we were all thinking about it until it was really serious, right? And then we sort of see the COVID sprinkled in, I thought, even starting with New Year's Eve and how joyous it all was, like, woohoo.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: 2020.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And now as we watch it, you're just like, if we all knew what was coming. And then they still sort of sprinkle in COVID throughout the whole season as it builds. And I enjoyed how they kept reminding us of the date. Like, oh, Alex comes back February 20. And I was like, oh my God, that's like three weeks before it's going to start. And then her last day was like March, I don't know, like 14th or something, right? Like, it just kept building and building and building till we see Alex with COVID and we see Bradley, like, rushing into the Er to find her brother in the chaos of the emergency room with COVID cases. And it was just like, we see them all go home and trying to figure out contact tracing and Corey with.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The and being silly with like, I don't know what that know?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Well, we didn't know what it meant. And Corey's like, can you stand can you step back? 6ft, right? Oh my God.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was such like an awkward time because I think everyone it was new social norms that we all had to just adopt and everyone had their own length of time for getting on board with specific social norms or not. And I think it was just like, there's a lot of awkward interactions with people.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think what I found personally interesting as a physician and as a psychiatrist, as the time when it all hit, I was still doing some moonlighting at a local hospital and fortunately that was like extra work. And so as soon as I started to feel unsafe, I stopped. And I had a lot of guilt over that, but certainly I had a couple of shifts. I never will forget how scared I felt because I didn't have enough PPE. And I remember nurses coming in and smuggling in masks to each other and saying, don't tell the supervisor. And we were trying to figure out, as a psychiatrist, what do you do when there's a code and you don't know if the patient's COVID positive? Like a behavioral code, agitation, delirium, things like that, that you get called for in the middle of the night, like, how close do you get? How close do you not get? We didn't know yet how is it transmitted? How does it affect if you have history of asthma, how does it affect you? How does it affect kids? All of that stuff. I just will never forget being so scared. And I remember leaving one of those shifts and realizing, like, I can't do this right? Like, I'm terrified. And one of the nurses being like, Dr. Fury, are you okay? And I was like, no, I'm really not. And then I think as a physician, realizing this is really serious, during that time when everyone was trying to figure out, like, do we really need to stay home? Do we really need to stock up? And when people were like, oh, it's just 60 days lockdown. And I was like, this is going to be years, and it's just hard to watch.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was an interesting theme, like, you said that even I know one of the producers who went up to Mia with one of like it was a COVID story about a number going up, but there was also, like, three other things happening that day. And she was like, Nope. No, we're not running that story. And it's just right. Like, they didn't and then all of a sudden, it was the most important thing, right? Like, in mid March, everyone that's all anyone could talk about. And I remember, funnily enough, with the morning show being like, right, a news network. I'm just not, like, a news watcher. And I watched the news, right, for like, 72 hours when things had locked down. And then I was like, this isn't.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So great for my mental mental health.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, but it was wild.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was wild.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Dr what was it? Fauci. And then that woman with the scar, Deborah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And just watching them try to keep their composure. I'll never forget that. Meme going around with Dr. Fauci, like, touching his forehead in frustration and being like, you know, it's bad when the man telling you don't touch anything is like touching its head in frustration, right? And they showed clips of Dr. Fauci in this. So the season does culminate with COVID and I'm really interested to see now that we know season three is about to come out, like, how does that evolve? But there was a whole lot more in season two, and I have no idea how we're going to cover it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All in this know? So so we have some new characters. We have Stella, who's the new president of the news division.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think she took Cory's job.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yep.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And then Corey took Fred's job, right, because they fired Fred.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that was a little I mean, it became clear, but right at the end of season one, it seemed like Corey was going to be let go, and then they ended up letting Fred go. And then Corey stepped into that role, which is what he wanted, right. And I think he kind of set some things up so that happened.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think also we come to find out he's kind of in cahoots with right? Like, it kind of sounded like I was a little confused by this, but it kind of seemed like Bradley thought she walked in and said, I'm not coming back if you don't rehire Corey. And then they did. But then we sort of found out later on that Fred was like, corey should be my successor and give me all this money. And then he's maybe pulling some strings in the background. So he's like gone but not really gone. That kind of confused me.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Corey is an interesting guy.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Do you think he's hypomanic?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He is something. He is so animated and constantly hyper and activated. I just want to know his routine off when he's not at work. We saw some of his exercise routine.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: When I saw that I was like, I think he's hypomanic constantly on the go. But explain that a little bit.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So when we think about hypomania, what we mean by that clinically is when you think about depression, we think about people who have clinical symptoms of depression for two weeks or more. That's where your mood is lower than your average baseline. We all have mood fluctuations over the course of our life, but when you're feeling depressed, your mood is way too low. Now, the flip side of that is something we call mania. This is what we see when you have something called bipolar disorder where not only do you have the depressive episodes, but then you also have the manic episodes where your mood is way too high, right? Like, you don't need sleep. You're talking a mile a minute. You have all these big grandiose ideas. You're really impulsive.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And people can tell.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: People can tell when you are fully manic. That's a psychiatric emergency. You need to go to the emergency room. A lot of times people end up getting hurt either because they're doing something really risky like skateboarding down a highway or something or because they're using substances or sex, gambling, spending money, things like that. There's something in between what we call euthymia, which is like a typical normal baseline mood. You still have fluctuations because you're human, but it's all within a controlled range of feelings. It never dips too low or too high. Mania is like the highest you ever get. Hypomania is kind of like halfway in between. And some people with hypomania function really well in society. Like maybe corey, right. Like, maybe he only needs 4 hours of sleep. Cool. He can get a lot more work done. Maybe he has boundless energy, but he's not like, talking way too fast or having really big ideas that are people with mania might write their memoirs on postit notes and put them all over their room, for example. He's not really behaving like that outside the norm. But sometimes people with hypomania are really successful and productive because they just don't need as much sleep, and they have more energy than the average person. He also could be abusing stimulants or something.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He could be and sometimes I think there's that little edge or overlapping, also, potentially, of ADHD, just like, really hyperactive. You know, what if you have ADHD? Some of the symptoms with mania are not presenting, though. But just that on the go. And we think about people who, in adulthood often find careers that do fit better if you have attention hyperactive or you're inattentive. It's hard when you're a child. I know I'm taking a little bit of a left turn here because school is pretty much the same. Right? We have expectations for everything. But when you get into adulthood, there's so many hands on careers. There's so many careers that you can be on the go that we see people typically be able to function a little bit better with that. So even I'm wondering for him, right. He's constantly being stimulated. He's constantly thinking of these things. So it's like that's a great point. He's got something, though.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Man, I'd love to evaluate him. He also has a history with his mom, which we won't get into all the details. Please watch the show. But which clearly influences his behavior and his love, it seems like, for Bradley. One thing I thought season two did a really interesting job of is, like, depicting how they're all falling in love with who I imagine their parents were. Right. I don't know. What did you think? Did you pick up on that at all?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Or, like, with Bradley. Right. It's like, for me, I felt like Laura was someone she never had. Right. Like, safe. She was really empathetic, really nurturing, really sweet, kind, really good advice, really validating, not dismissive. And then it's just, like, interesting now with, like, in the mix. It's like, who know in season three, I guess, where does and it's like it depends on, I think, where she is with herself and doing work or not. Because I would say and again, this is just like a guess if she hasn't done work on herself, I could see her picking Corey, and if she has, then it's like Laura.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So I think it's going to be Cory.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What did you think about that scene with Laura and Bradley where Laura was encouraging Bradley to go to therapy?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was excellent.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. I thought it was so gentle. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You're crazy. You need to go to therapy, or you need to get over this, so you should go to therapy. It was just, like, very like, it seems like you need to talk about this, or you need some support, you need someone to help you figure this out. Stuff with your brother.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes. After her brother Hal. And we'll get into this a little more later. That depiction of being the sibling of someone with an active addiction coming from a dysfunctional home life, we'll definitely get into all of that. But I thought the way Laura so, like, validated how hard all of that was for Bradley and said, I think you need some help figuring this out. Have you tried? Therapy was just such a nice way to bring it up. And then I thought it was so honest when Bradley was like, I think they're going to tell me I'm crazy, I'm scared. And I was like, girl, me too. I hear you. I think we all feel like that, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And what a great Know line for her to say, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I thought that was such a beautiful depiction of sort of like a nice way to encourage someone you love to seek help and a really nice way to introduce a really tough concept of boundaries and when is it time to walk away? That's hard.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's hard. And I think in the spirit of therapy, everyone could use it on the Know. I think Mia certainly needs some support. I mean, what a complicated loss she is experiencing. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's like Mitch, you mean?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And even just of this distance, right, of just know, fall from grace as a loss, his loss of the show and then ultimately, right, like his death and then reporting on it and you can see her tearing up. But knowing that he also did all these horrible things and know had come out in this episode, these questions around, like, was he praying specifically on black mean? I just was like, Mia, I would love to I don't just I really like her character. I really empathize with her and I would love for her to get all the support she can. She seems like she's throwing herself into work, which is the job. I mean, I think it just is what it is.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: At the end of season one, he looked so haggard and disheveled and exhausted. And I was like, you are like, going to collapse at the beginning of season two. He looks great. He's like well groomed. He's engaged. He's got this beautiful little house.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's driving a Subaru.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: He's probably getting 8 hours of sleep a night. He's probably exercising. Maybe he's playing pickleball. Like, he looks so good. And it was fascinating to me how he so early on told Bradley, like, if I ever talk to Alex again, I got a lot to say to her. But then when she shows up and asks him to come back, he's like, okay, yeah. Why do you think he did that?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know if it was a selfish, not like, self seeking, self serving thing where it's like, I do want to be a bigger producer, right? Like, I'm this little smaller station and this is really my world. Or was it his connection with Alex? Does he think he owes her? Is there, like you had mentioned before, a trauma bond with like I don't know if it was for I mean, it could be all of those things at the same time. So what about you?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think my theory is that I do think, like, near the end when they have that knockout fight in the car where they're really raging at each other and she mentions that she feels like he's in love with her and she doesn't love him like, that that got me thinking, like, is that true? Especially because then when he was making out with his fiance and was like, let's go do it in Alex's office, and that is kind of creepy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It got me thinking, like, was his mom, like Alex? Did he have a self centered, narcissistic mother who was constantly absent or critical? And is he seeking that validation unconsciously?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But is he seeking that approval, that acceptance, that validation in a super unhealthy way? That's what I think. So I'd love him to get some therapy too. And I think what we were talking.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: About with who Bradley will choose based on her own internal path, I think same with like, if he is a well self, he's going to choose his current right like life, right. Working at the smaller station with his this this quiet, healthier, seemingly life, but maybe not so big and showy, right? Like you could see him kind of being pulled back and back and back into this abusive relationship.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. And we see that with how in that final scene or the final episode when Alex is on air with COVID which was weird that he lied and said he tested positive too. So he's like, totally around her. He could have just put a mask on if he could find one. I guess back then they were hard to find, but we see his fiance call and he declines it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He also then puts something on the prompter that Alex wasn't expecting, which is like, so are you getting back at her or you just like it was confusing of where they're going to land.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: 100% because in so many ways, their relationship continued evolving in a very raw, honest way. But then we continued to see the power dynamic stay the same when she FaceTimes him.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Initially from bed and after, they are still not okay. They had just had that big fight in the car. And then she's like, very sick. He's being kind, but he gets sucked.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Into her again and again. And she keeps using him as a narcissist will do again and again. And I felt like at the very beginning of season two with Alex, she's in her little chalet. It looks so cozy. She has a dog now. She's writing her memoir. And you see when she comes back to the station, that dinner party at Corey's house, I felt like she put on such a good mask of like, I've really done a lot of self reflection. I want to be different. And then as the season progresses, under more and more stress and scrutiny, I just feel like she's the same old narcissist she's always been. And we see it in such a big way that she goes to Italy to get this letter from Mitch as if he's not again, she doesn't care what he's dealing with. She doesn't care that know, at that point, we knew COVID was spreading. She doesn't care. We see how much she doesn't care about other people. She kicks them off the private jet so she can get back. She goes back to work despite knowing she was in it. She doesn't answer chip's phone calls for like weeks. She's just so utterly selfish and it's.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just such a big and telling Mitch's wife, right. I think she thought that she was being so kind, like, I'm going to tell her, look at me.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I'm such a person. Look at me. But it's like, no. And I loved when Mitch's wife really put her in her, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, because her whole world was shattering then. Because it's like other people know, right? She had been so desperate to protect that secret that her and Mitch had know consensual sex. And now it's like, well, actually, other people do know, or other people. There were whispers. And then when Bradley got the excerpts from the book and she's interviewing Maggie, it was just so fascinating to watch Alex unravel, right? Because her whole world had changed. She's no longer in the driver's seat. Her world is falling around her. People are starting to not like her.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Because people are seeing the real her. And the whole world was about to see the real her. Like, we saw Daniel's reaction to the real her. And I was really proud of him again, in that early scene at the dinner party, that he didn't just let her off the hook and like, because that's what he's supposed to do. He really held her accountable. And you see how much he does not like that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Daniel may be doing some work therapeutically. He is starting to stand up for himself more. He's setting is he is doing what feels authentic to him. You know what?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: He has the it factor.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I agree with his grandpa.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I didn't love the cringy song and dance for Alex, and I'm sure that was humiliating for him, but he's got the if factor. And I would be ****** if I were him that I almost got the job at the other network and I agreed to stay. And then Alex just like, stabbed. He just uses people. We really saw that in that scene with Laura when they talked about going to see Bring into Noise, bring Into ****, we see how even with like and I thought this was actually really smart of the writers because it shows that Alex has always been this way, that she was new on the scene. Laura was like know, she was like the lead anchor. She was closeted at the time, but she had some close friends who knew. And it sounds like we're accepting, but it wasn't the kind of thing you just shouted from the rooftops back then. And then soon after, Alex coming into the social circle, all of a sudden it leaks and all of a sudden she gets fired. And then Alex disappears but rises up the ranks. And it was just really interesting to see Alex try to get on Laura's good side and sort of remember that whole scenario so differently from how it actually happened.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Do you think that there was malicious intent or do you think Alex just had no, no. It was either malicious intent or zero self awareness at that time.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Honestly, I feel like for someone with narcissistic personality disorder, how do you split the difference? I really feel like Alex meets criteria for that and she's always just it might not be conscious, but unconsciously thinking for herself and putting her own needs first. And the whole world revolves around her and quite literally it does. Being in such a powerful position in the media, we see again, people kick people off the private jet so she can get home. Chip comes in and exposes himself to COVID so she can go on the like, quite literally, people do revolve around her. So it's hard to like, was it malicious or was it just selfish? But where's the line?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I saw a really interesting TikTok with Alison Stoner. So she was a child star and so she just made this video. It's from September 1, if you want to watch it. And she kind of speaks on how in the film industry, especially starting out with in childhood, how narcissists are kind of grown, even if it's not like rightly. You're born with the trait. And so I think what we've talked about also with Succession 100% is just like how do you have developed drive, right? This internal drive that maybe separates you or you have what do you call it? Like predestined predetermined. Pre, whatever that word is. I'm not saying it predisposed to something that maybe comes out in some people, not others. I don't really see it in Daniel.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. But maybe is that why he's not so as successful?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because he's not so brutal?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's the thing, is you have more empathy and you think about others.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And so that kind of holds him back.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Whereas Alex was thinking for herself and wanted what she wanted and was going to get it at and then she.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did and then she did and then she did over and over and over again doing it. And then there are her expectations. I mean, even her family we saw in season one way more, but the facade with her partner, they did that because of her career, because she asked them to. It was expected.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And when you're on her good side, when you're on the good side of the split, she is so charming and funny and. You feel special being in her orbit, right? Like, we see that time and time again with Chip. And I feel like that's how she keeps sucking people in to help further her own agenda, though. That's the thing. Even Bradley again, I think because Bradley hasn't done the work, she's getting sucked in in a way that they I don't even think consciously realize. But Bradley's getting sucked in, too. And in many ways, we see that Bradley's mom, although very know in terms of not being successful, not being wealthy, but is still very critical, dismissive and invalidating. Much like Alex's, when you're on her bad side, like when you try to confront or criticize or point out that she's done something wrong, quickly flips on you. But I think that's why Bradley keeps getting sucked, why all these people get sucked into her orbit and she just uses them to get what she wants.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So what do you think? Do you think it was Bradley being sucked in? What do you think about the interview with Bradley? And, like, what was Bradley's angle? I mean, I liked it. I know a question I'm saying to me. I liked it in the fact that I don't like Maggie, really. And I don't know if that's because I'm in Alex's. I just thought as a woman, instead of being about Mitch, which I'm not saying that in the way that it dismisses, because Alex is not like, a good person, really, but the fact that she kind of lied the whole time about what the book was. And it's like, I remember when Bradley was scrolling through the pages, gets in the back, right? She see her name twice. And then Alex, it's this huge thing. She's on the COVID And I thought that was a really I liked how she challenged her on some of like, why isn't this about Mitch? This was supposed to be about all of the guys and whatever. And yes, Alex is a part of that, which she doesn't want to admit. But I did appreciate kind of the pushback on, too.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I did too. And I think I would imagine Alex has really hurt Maggie. She must like I feel like this was Maggie's way of calling her to the carpet. Is that a saying? Maybe we'll go with know, like, holding her accountable and being, like, exposing who she really is to the world. But I think what Bradley was saying was, like, was that your right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Why'd?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You do know, why did you do this? Especially when she came to you and begged you not to. And that is true. She did. It was interesting. Yeah, I think it was really interesting. I don't think Alex expected it at all. I don't think anyone did. And then I'm wondering, why did Bradley do it?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And again, is it like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Corey keeps putting her in these interesting, like, of, well, you should do it because you're fair. And it's like what does that mean? Remember when he's like, can you do the interview? And she's like, well, why? I don't know. This might be difficult. And he's like, I just know that you'll be really fair. But it was a drawn out it was intentionally that we heard that moment. What does that mean?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I feel like especially in season two, we see that I hate this about professional settings, when people are saying one thing but really meaning something different and you have to learn the lingo and the undertones and what's being implied. I feel like we saw that a lot with season two. So just that when he's saying fair, does he mean, don't hurt the network. Let's keep us in a good light? Is that what he really means or does he mean, you'll be fair?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's almost both. But I'm only saying it's both because I think the fact that he likes her complicates things for him. I don't think he's used to that. I don't think he knows what to do with Bradley initially. He likes her. He keeps giving her all of these things. He keeps promoting her, promoting her, promoting her. Is it because he truly right, has this almost fantasy of how amazing she is as a career woman? Or is it that love piece? Is it infatuation?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But then he's the one who outs her. So he also loves her, but he's hurting her. And that makes me want to know more about Corey's mom. We learned just a little bit how he was taking care of her and he's kind of taking care of Bradley in terms of giving her the job, giving her a place to stay, rising through the ranks, giving her even Laura, like sending Laura into her life. Can you please help her?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But with her in a really weird way? Permission. I think he made it in his head, okay, for him to do that when he outed them. Because Bradley he made Bradley say, right, he set her up to be like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You have to do whatever it takes to protect.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And, like, I think I don't know, maybe Bradley would at the end of the day, if it was super black and white or she knew the outcome later on, that she'd be like, maybe she would have given permission for that. I don't know. But in his head, I think he got permission from her. And that absolves him of the guilt. Yeah, guilt. Maybe it comes out in season three, maybe.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Because I don't think he ever told her that it was him.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I thought he was going to at the end, but then he said, I love you. And then I was like, can he not sit with the guilt of telling her this? So he says he loves her instead, right? He's fascinating. I really hope we see a lot more of his development. I really hope we see Bradley in therapy in season like, I really, really hope we do.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that would be a great line of whatever, to see Alex and.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Bradley in therapy together, almost like couple therapy or family therapy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And maybe she did she would go to therapy twice. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And she's good. That's right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She talks some of the external problems, like the network or the cancellation. Right. But it's not about her. It's not deeply rooted in her Psych for interest.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And then she'd be good. She'd be like, I'm good. Or it would be like we saw in succession with the family therapy, right. Where you can't actually go anywhere substantial or honest.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So rewatching those episodes with Alex and Mitch and watching Mitch's death by suicide was really emotional for me. But what about for you? What did you think of all that?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's interesting. Bringing then in paola paula. Paula because I feel like I was just feeling many different feelings towards Mitch. At the one hand, I obviously don't like his character. I think he's like, a crappy person.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Really hard to see Steve Carell like this.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. Right. But 100% such a good job.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And he's also such a good choice because I think it automatically makes you, like, ambivalent.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yep.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And he is right from the office like this. Like everyone loves my favorite boss. But then, obviously, this is also another character. But it's like, oh, it's a perfect character based on his other fictional characters.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: 100%.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Because he's just, like, beloved. He's funny, rodeo virgin. There hasn't been bad press about Steve Carell, as far as I know. So him being in the role, it just automatically, I think, plants that seed of ambivalence in our minds.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. So when he was in Italy and that woman kind of came up to him right. And was, like, saying those things to him, and then we know her friend is filming it. Yeah. Paula come in and kind of interject. I didn't know how to so Mitch was like, right. He's excommunicated. He's living in Italy. He's by himself again. I think at that moment, he doesn't still have self awareness. I think he has more than his mentor. I think there's lines that Mitch won't cross that mentor did, but he still, I think, is lacking self awareness or really kind of understanding. He's still trying to, I think, come back or liked again. But I was again torn with that woman kind of saying those things to me. He's like, he's here minding his business. He's a hat on. Like, he's not right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Exactly.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Clear the restaurant for me.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I thought it also brought up this idea of cancel culture and that exploration in a really smart way, how, like, yeah, he's done something many things that are awful and egregious. But, yeah, he's alone. He's not doing anything egregious right then. And we're just going to provoke him in hopes of filming it, that it'll go viral for that person's. Personal gain. That was.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I i the one thing that I liked Paola said to them was kind of just the pointing out of, like, you're doing this to post it. And I was, yeah, like, this isn't you kind of coming up and having a conversation and being like, I just feel like I need to say you whatever. Like a small thing, which, again, still is unprovoked, but whatever. I think just like, people do that, right? People do that. She would have gone viral and had her moment and that feels just a little icky. So anyway, moving through that, I think, just because I always am. So I don't think it's naive, but, like, go lucky, optimistic, never ending. But I feel like Mitch, in his way, on his path, which is not mine or other people's, was kind of exploring what he did.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: He was I thought so, too, way more than exactly.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, I think he, with time was changing, maybe with more support. I think that documentary that he did with Paolo was powerful or learning of that survivor in Italy that she was talking about or trying to film or make the documentary about. I think he was learning. And so I'm wondering if because he was it was like all of a sudden there was this guilt or like he couldn't handle the fact that he was this person who did these terrible things because he wasn't suicidal before. It was on his journey almost to changing that he took his life.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was so sad. Like that scene where he swerves and then you see his hand let go. I was like, oh, it really gets him. And he shuts his eyes like he's at peace.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, so sad, portia I mean, he's a children. I don't know. I feel like he had the capacity for change and you have to want it, and he didn't want it before. I don't think he wanted to be.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Alone, away from everyone. COVID, like, thinking about your life, I do think I was seeing more and more capacity for reflection and introspection and ability to change, and I wasn't seeing that from Alex. To me, it was a fascinating juxtaposition of her coming out to Italy, won her letter from him, really railing on him, saying anything she could to get what she wanted.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then them being good and then them not being good.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was like this whiplash and then them dancing and having these really tender, loving moments and then parting ways, it seemed like, on good terms. And then that happens. But then in between, I guess, then he is intimate with Paola, who he's.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Very upset by the allegations about it being like, preying on black women.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. It was sad. It was definitely sad and unexpected for me. I did not see that coming.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And one thing we've talked about in some previous episodes is that humans are complicated and flawed and complex and you can be a perpetrator and a victim. Like, we talk about this a lot with children who grow up in really abusive households and then, unfortunately, become abusive as adults, but I feel like we see that with Mitch here. And again, I'm not trying to be a Mitch Apologist or anything, but he did awful bad things, and now he's being treated so and, yes, he should be held accountable and be fired and maybe arrested or charged with things like all of that. And I think this show, we see what could happen to a human soul going through that and then being just, like, piled on, piled on, piled on top of it, as he does seem to be trying to figure it out or figure out how do you move forward? Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's also, like, the power of cancel culture, which is what I heard you kind of saying, but not saying those specific words just now. Because I think when some things are very clear, like taking absolutely social media or any kind of presence out, it's like, okay, you do something bad, maybe you do get convicted. Like, you actually are part of the criminal justice system, and you go to jail. It's like you are then treated poorly and in this terrible system. But it's clear then it's like the world, everyone hates you. They are death threats, making things about your kids. It's so interesting to hear people talk about cancel culture or being canceled because everybody says it's, like, the worst thing, because it's so unique. I don't know. It feels nuanced. I know it's not super new at this point, but it's just this weird thing.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think, too, with social media, I feel like that has to add to it. It's not just like you're being canceled at your place of work, in your immediate family, or even in America. He was canceled internationally, and again, in some ways, he deserves it. 100 million%. And then all the piling on at the same time. You just think about that is a human at the end of the day, too? And this is really tricky. I feel like this is really hard for everyone, humans, me to wrap my head around. The show just does such a good job portraying really difficult topics. And as we wrap up, I do want to make sure we talk about Bradley and Hal. What did you think of this?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was was because I was so moved and I was so angry at him when he know, I'll make it really simple. He's describing how their mom has impacted him right. By being threatening, manipulative, all of these things. And he does it exactly to Bradley, like, within the same sentence. And it's just like I was speechless at how well they got it. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then Bradley, the guilt tripping, the threatening, the putting it it's on you. My substance use is on you. Showing up and hurt me. Job horrible.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: All of it. You can just see how much she is struggling with wanting to help and support him. Especially now that she has so much money, like more money than they ever had and she can't help him. But then being totally like, what are you doing? Like, why are you showing up here? Are you using? She looks through his bag and then he notices. But then it's like, of course she right. And it's just they perfectly demonstrated that dance. And that scene when she's dropping him off at rehab and trying to set those boundaries like Laura was encouraging her to, was heartbreaking. But I felt like if I was her therapist, I would say you have to set boundaries.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I would have been very proud of her for how she was when she dropped him off. I can't do this for you. This is your decision. Go in or go out. I can't make you sober. And then sucked back in again later on.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But Manipulatively leaves all the money and disappears again. It's like just like Alex disappearing with her back and not answering anyone's calls. It is such a primitive way of getting someone's attention, right? By scaring them, being like, oh, you don't want anything to do with me? Well then look what's going to happen. And it totally worked.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's so hard to not be impacted by that. People do it 1000 times over and over again. Sometimes they never stop and sometimes they do, but it just breaks you as a person and having to do that over and over and over again.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You really need help navigating that. And that's where support groups, even like Alanon, your own individual therapy can help with that. I don't think there was any way for Bradley to stick with her boundaries in that situation. I thought her reaction was really accurate and human and you just saw all the desperation and remorse and guilt and everything that she was feeling. And I feel like, unfortunately, people who love someone affected by substance use will totally relate to that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the people who know in a relationship like Laura with Bradley, because I think that can oftentimes alienate the person like Bradley even more. Because as things are happening, as Hal is pushing Bradley and kind of like making her unwell, there's the people around Bradley like Laura, who then even more so will start to be know, you really can't do this anymore. You really need to set a boundary. And sometimes that know, break a relationship, right? And so then it's like, then you're more know, you're without more it's so it seems know, okay, it's just between Bradley and it just the spider web goes out so far with how substance abuse impacts families.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's what we always say, right? It's a disease of the family. It affects everyone. Which I guess you could say about most mental health conditions. But we really see it with substance use. And it was just what a portrayal. And I mean, so expertly done and so heart wrenching. I was so glad she did finally find him, but I'm really worried they're both going to get COVID now. Or I was like, Bradley, what if you have COVID and you're running in exposing all these other people? And it's just like the chaos, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's still so at the beginning. So they hadn't shut down, no visitors yet. It's within all the chaos of her own life. And then it's like you're seeing which we love, the parallels of all the chaos that now the world is being pushed into.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So where do you hope season three goes?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'm sure there'll be at least a couple episodes, right, with them working from home. And I'm curious how that is. But then I'm wondering where season three ends. I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, but because will Cobra be, quote unquote, over? Are they back into the office? Does anyone die? Are Corey and who does Bradley end up with? Is anyone fired? Is Alex ever able to gain anything? Does she keep doing her?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, I don't have any hope for her. I'm sorry.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's interesting because the show, or maybe not the writers, but the producers or the directors in an interview had talked about how they really wanted to give Alex her redemption at the end of season two. And I feel like maybe a person without mental health background would think she did.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Were you watching, like, the stay tuned for the show? I did watch that for a couple of episodes, including the last one, and I think they touched on, like they were trying to say, like, Alex is human. And I'm like, yeah, and really far on the narcissistic spectrum, like, really lacking empathy and ability to appreciate how our actions affect others. So I just don't think that's going to magically develop.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And if it does, I don't know. I think the writers, like we've talked about a million times, are wonderful and have they must have mental health experts they have to, helping them develop these characters.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: If you want some more, you can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly. So please reach out to us anywhere. You can find us on Instagram or TikTok at Analyze Groups podcast or check out our website. You can also email us if you'd like to get in touch with us on a more of a professional level. But stay tuned for more of our episodes and check out the ones that we have back in the feed. There's a lot.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There's a lot. All right, thanks for listening and we'll see you again next Monday.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing one of Dr. Furey's favorite movies - the 2008 comedy "Step Brothers" starring Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly. In this lighthearted episode, we use the comedic depiction of two 40-something year-old men living with their parents to discuss failure to launch syndrome and common difficulties encountered when blending families. We also explore the depiction of an enabling vs dismissive parent, the thrapist-patient dynamics between Brennan and Denise, and the classic narcissistic traits embodied by evil older brother Derek. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Welcome back for another episode. I am personally thrilled to be talking about one of my favorite movies of all time, the 2008 smash hit Step Brothers. I feel like in rewatching it for this podcast, I didn't even need to. I know every single line of dialogue, but I still love it so much.

[01:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think my husband's favorite movie of all time.

[01:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. This movie also happens to always be on every time I'm in a hotel on TBS or where they're censoring a lot of the dialogue. It's still funny.

[01:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. This movie is just, like, iconic. The cast is ridiculous. Will Ferrell, John C. Reilly, Adam Scott. We have Mary Steenbergen, who's also the mom and elf.

[01:46] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

[01:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which we're going to be will Ferrell. So it's just like I think he likes working with her. She likes working with him. It's just they're great.

[01:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love it. Yeah.

[01:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Her voice and her mannerisms, I just love.

[01:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: She was so good in this role. Like, all the times when her and Richard Jenkins, who plays Jobak, like, when you can tell he's trying to lay down the law, and she's like, Robert thinks we agree. It's time for you to move, know. Or like, when he's so mad they destroyed his boat with the boats and host thing. And she's like, I am so upset that you two destroyed his boat. That being said, I thought you showed a lot of enthusiasm and inventiveness. And I was like, in some ways, you're so enabling them, but in other ways, that's so loving.

[02:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She reminds me a lot of the actress herself and the roles that she's playing reminds me of the wife in What About Bob?

[02:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[02:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She plays similar roles. She has a very similar cadence.

[02:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: The way she sort of like light, airy voice. I totally agree. Totally agree. And then we have Catherine Hahn as Alice, who is Adam Scott's wife. What do you think about the scene with them in the car with their children singing?

[03:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I sing along every time. It is so funny. I think I sing this in the car sometimes with know, I'm not a great like, I can tell that I'm not good, so I have an ear.

[03:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I know you're not the little boy's role.

[03:20] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No.

[03:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: You might be Catherine. I think I'm her.

[03:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And someone can yell, flat.

[03:24] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Flat.

[03:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: One $200 voice lessons a week. Offer this. And I was like, wow, that is so mean. So mean.

[03:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: He is so mean to everyone. Right?

[03:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, brutal, slurs aside. Like, mean.

[03:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you think he is a narcissist?

[03:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that he is a not human person. I don't know. Yeah, I guess I'm trying to think of something else. I was even thinking of animals to compare him to. He's just so gross and obsessed with putting other people down and himself. And sometimes I think, too, I wonder if he is, because he's so homophobic.

[04:11] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Maybe he.

[04:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Pushing something down.

[04:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Repressed energy.

[04:16] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[04:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: To be clear, we are talking about Adam Scott's character, Derek, not Scott himself.

[04:22] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right?

[04:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Who I don't think is, like, this character at I thought, you know, again, this movie is so funny. It is a comedy, clearly.

[04:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So they're pushing they're pushing every character to the max.

[04:36] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[04:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's so ridiculous over the top.

[04:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: And yet I still think displays some really interesting topics in a really accurate right. Like, I really think Derek meets a lot of criteria for narcissistic traits.

[04:53] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[04:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he's constantly putting other people down to make himself feel better. I loved all the family dinners where he's, like, bragging about going fishing with Jay Z or whatever he's doing. And then by the end, they have to be like, okay, Derek, that's enough. They have to cue him, let other people know.

[05:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But then Robert is so enamored with.

[05:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Derek, which people can be, and his.

[05:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Own son, Dale down in such a mean way that the stepmom Nancy has to tell him to stop.

[05:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then also, Nancy also chimes in with Brendan has a mangina.

[05:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know, right?

[05:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: But this is what these sorts of people can do. They can pull this out of you.

[05:39] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[05:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: They can make you feel.

[05:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: When she's yeah, like and then I joined in.

[05:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's just like what? But the whole scene with Will Ferrell dressed like a pirate doing his dancing on the stage is just and the.

[05:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Fact that he is so clearly like, a middle aged man, even.

[05:58] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[05:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They're playing, right? Like, you know, in real time. But, like, the flashback, it's, like, still.

[06:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: This middle aged so funny. But that's what mean. Like, these sorts of little things. I'm like you're kind of hitting the nail on the head, though. You see Derek splitting the family, right. Even his new stepdad. It's really interesting. He's so mean to his wife and kids. You can tell they all have to be perfect. They're all there to play a role and fill his own need. Of course. He's a real estate agent on the side, right? I just have my license on the side. I had one supervisor once say that. I don't know if there's any data to back this up, and I don't want to offend our listeners who are real estate agents. But she said in her clinical experience. And she's been doing this for decades and decades. There's a lot of narcissism in real estate. And I was like, that's interesting. And she's like, yeah, if you think about it, part of their job is to form relationships quickly, often superficially, and to sell things. And I was like, that's interesting. Yeah, so I just thought for him, it tracked. And I just thought, even though this is so over the top, they did depict this. I don't even know if back in 2008 this was as much of a thing, but this whole notion of failure to launch.

[07:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Because that's a movie too, right?

[07:21] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It is.

[07:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: And even though there's like that new Jennifer Lawrence movie, it's kind of about it. Maybe I haven't seen it yet, or maybe it's just they want to prep their son for.

[07:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Mean. Failure to Launch, I think is an interesting phenomenon that there's a lot of books out now and yes, like comedic movies as well, but it's really like.

[07:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: This interesting cultural, societal thing that's happening.

[07:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It seems to be happening more to males than females with just like a anecdotally movies, books. It seems to be more about males that's true. Launch than females.

[07:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Actually, in every single movie we just mentioned, the quote unquote identified patient is a male.

[08:05] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[08:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: And in this movie, they're both men.

[08:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And I'm just curious what that's about. I wish I had read one of the books that I'm referencing now.

[08:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, we have full time jobs and we're watching a lot of content to do this. So again, if anyone wants to sponsor us, dear Media, feel free and we could really dive into the research.

[08:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it happens when the term has been coined, when your adult children are not kind of leaving the home, having independence, able to support themselves financially, emotionally. And you see a lot of I think this is kind of just like the funny end of it. Like basement dwellers who are just kind of living at home. I'd say there also is a difference in my kind of opinion, in practice with today's current housing market and so many people returning home after college or just for whatever reason, after a couple of years, because they just cannot afford to live outside the home. So I'd say, like, if you're living at home and you are working however you are, whatever that looks like, whatever field you are in and contributing to the household in any way that your family is asking you to, and maybe they're not, and that's okay, but that feels different, really. Failure to launch.

[09:21] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[09:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think that's a really important distinction to make. And I feel like you're right that there's just so much economic stress for young adults these days in terms of student loans and then housing market and wages and how do you get on your feet? So that, I feel like, is a difference, right? Like sort of living at home until you can launch, but like prepping for the launch and fostering independence along the way. Very different from what we see going on with Dale Brennan. Dale, yeah. Very different. Right?

[09:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So childlike. Right? Like so childlike.

[10:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Toddlers.

[10:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Toddlers.

[10:01] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Toddlers.

[10:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was laughing with what they're eating. So, like chicken nuggets and French fries. A lot of ketchup, which is like a kid meal, right? Kids eat chicken nuggets and they really like ketchup.

[10:11] Huff & Doback: Yes.

[10:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: They just freaking love ketchup.

[10:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like the best condiment ever. It's how kids start learning about condiments. Then we move to a balsamic vinegar.

[10:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's the gateway condiment. You got to be careful. It's a slippery slope getting started with that ketchup.

[10:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So that was just funny, like in all ways, right? The movie is highlighting them as really just like children.

[10:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: They're like into Shark Week. Like just every single thing dealing this drum know, just like being like, you can't come over here because this is like my area. Just like so childlike. And the way that Nancy talks to them is just like how I imagine or do talk to know where she's just you just couldn't hold the fart in or what happened there. I heard you interviewed together for that job. Or maybe take the long way home. Just too much.

[11:08] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right?

[11:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I just imagine her being like that in real, you know, in this kind of bad way that we're going to get to with enabling. But I just think that she's so soft and kind and open that I just feel like that's her in real life.

[11:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like how everyone thinks Jennifer Aniston is who we think she is in real life. But then I'm like, what if they're like raging jerks, right? Could you imagine? What if there were all these blind items that turns out were all about Mary Steenberg? That would be shocking, right? She would tell you to F off, but in a really nice, weird way.

[11:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Toned. Right?

[11:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Which is like worse, right? Like maybe even more dangerous than the people who are really in your face.

[11:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right? And it's funny because Robert seems to be irritated with Dale, but it's like you still made him this way, right? And so he gets mad more easily or frustrated with them more. And it's like but you both still have 40 year old sons living with you who are not doing anything. And they both only eat chicken nuggets. They both have their own space. They both are childlike.

[12:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: They both wear chewbacca masks.

[12:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Why are you now getting mad? I get you're probably been frustrated for years, but it's funny, like his response.

[12:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: All of a sudden I get the sense that he checked out, right? Like that he's frustrated and he just threw his hands up and was like, I give up. Whereas she is just taking care of Brennan for her own needs, wants to be a mom, right. And is really struggling with letting him go.

[12:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So more like codependence there. She needs him.

[12:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Even though right. We do see in this movie a lot of very quick and heavy romantic connections, right? Like Robert and Nancy, like, right away lock eyes at that cochlear implement conference.

[13:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I love to know what she's doing there.

[13:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, I wonder if she's like a rep, like a sales rep of some kind. That's the vibe.

[13:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was she's not called Doctor and he is.

[13:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's the doctor.

[13:24] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[13:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's like, the point.

[13:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love Dale wanting to go into family business.

[13:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[13:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he's like, Trust me, I've tried to tell him that's not how it works, but it's just so funny. Like, at the beginning, they're being intimate and then she tells him, she's like, I have to get this off my chest. And then he's like, Me too. And then that's it. That seals it's like a trauma bond, right? They're like, quickly bonded. And then we see Alice, Derek's wife, fall hot and heavy for Dale very quickly. What did you think of that?

[14:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, besides feeling gross about it and just write the, like, gross open mouth, like, lapping of each other's faces was just like, making me one of them.

[14:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Can you imagine if that's like, your job as an actor? Like, all these people around you, and they're like, okay, do it again.

[14:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And do it in a way that will disgust people.

[14:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do it more. Do it like more slobbery. Like, okay, we got to get it from this angle.

[14:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The scene where they're like, in the forest, right? And she's like, running after him. She sees him, and then it's just so cringy and funny.

[14:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: But if the roles were reversed, like, if it was Dale coming onto her with that intensity, don't you think it.

[14:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Would feel more I also just think because of their body stature, right? She's like, small, he's really tall. And so when she kind of assaults him in the bathroom and climbs on top of him with zero foreplay and zero consent right. Asking any questions. And then they finish together after 4 seconds, it just feels like right? Like she's the girl, she's small, he could get off her, he could leave if he wanted.

[15:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[15:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But yes, 100% the other way. If the roles were reversed, even just for body structure, I think it would be more like assaultive.

[15:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it would feel more I mean, it is uncomfortable to watch, but it's also a comedy. But you're like, well, Dale's kind of speaking like Attack.

[15:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Dale is also like a child, right? So I don't think he knows what's going on, really, what you do in those situations. Besides, there's a lot of masturbation. They have a lot of the nudie mags. And he has this collection that's from like seventy s, eighty s and ninety s and Brennan's crinkling a page because there's three lower body parts with hair on that page. And it's like a classic and it's.

[15:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like so funny. I know.

[15:56] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh my God.

[15:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And their favorite magazine to ********** to. That's not a nudie. Good Housekeeping. When they're like, aligning finally and have all of these things in common.

[16:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God.

[16:06] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Combining families is hard.

[16:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: It is portia.

[16:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It is typically less hard for very obvious reasons. And it doesn't make it not hard, but it's less hard when your children are older.

[16:19] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[16:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's like harder to combine families. I'd say the hardest time I find is when you're in teenhood. So I'd say like ten, I don't know, eight to 18 feels because life is so hard those years.

[16:38] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[16:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I do just want to point out, like eight to 18 is like a good chunk of childhood. So just to point out, most of the time it's hard.

[16:45] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[16:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, like, babies, I would say, don't really know anything different till like three.

[16:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's it.

[16:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Three to 18. All of childhood. It's really sounding when you're aware.

[17:01] Huff & Doback: Once.

[17:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: You have awareness, it's really hard because.

[17:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It is so different.

[17:06] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[17:06] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think one of the hardest things is really not always the siblings, but the parents. Like this guy or this girl who's an adult is coming into your house and you could have the most self aware stepparent who's doing their own work, who's so kind, who's communicative, who's asking questions, and it's still hard. There's boundaries that are supposed to be kind of coming together, but it doesn't feel good at first, and they can't tell me what to do and it feels weird. And what are the other parents? Are they around? It's very challenging, even in the best of circumstances with the best kind of adults.

[17:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: And the adults, I feel like, have.

[17:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To be able to tolerate the pushback.

[17:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: From the kids and not take it personally and just be like, this is to be expected and you have to weather the storm. But I think you do have to have a degree of psychological mindedness and total awareness to be able to do that.

[18:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So I think when you have adult children who are 40 plus, who a shouldn't be living in the home real.

[18:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: It shouldn't even matter.

[18:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It really shouldn't matter. That's why it's so unless right. The partner, your dad is dating this woman and she's horrible.

[18:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Take advantage of him.

[18:19] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[18:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think that's what makes this movie so funny. And it's like if this movie were done with children between the ages of three and 18, you could still do it.

[18:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly.

[18:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: What would happen?

[18:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe testing, maybe splitting.

[18:36] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[18:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like I'm going to ask now, Stepdad, because he's probably going to say yes. I think it's just like it's interesting when Dale is testing Nancy about know, I like to have a lot of fresh fruit around and I like, whatever in my pancakes or something.

[18:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she's like, okay, that sounds great.

[18:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Great stepmom, if anyone's going to be a stepmom. Nancy is the way to go. So supportive.

[19:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but again, where does it tip over from support to enabling, right? And I thought it's crossed. Where do you think it got crossed?

[19:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe at the mangina moment.

[19:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe she just feels so guilty that now from then on, whatever.

[19:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe I don't know Dale and Robert. But I'm also curious, just as a side note, and we have no information like what happened to the other parents.

[19:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: So are they deceased?

[19:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And did that have anything to do right. With kind of enabling or not parenting kids anymore? Maybe, but we don't like I thought.

[19:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: They said that Nancy and her husband got divorced and she said what's harder on Brennan? I'm blanking on what happened. Know Mrs. Doback number one, or who knows if there was more than one before Nancy. Maybe she didn't, I don't know.

[19:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I feel like she did and I don't know why. Maybe they said that really quickly, but.

[20:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think she did. But again, I get the sense Brennan's younger, like Derek's doing okay and then Brennan is stuck at home. But again, I think isn't that what we see in family structures like this? That usually it is the youngest with the parent if there is some codependency.

[20:18] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[20:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: At least in my experience. That's what I've seen. Again, I'm not like a family structure expert by any means.

[20:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No. I think it's hard to be in any family system who is merging with another family system.

[20:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, and it's just like they just really touched on some of the, I would say, like common roadblocks in a really humorous way. And I think you could do it because they're like full on adults and they're hilarious.

[20:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like space.

[20:49] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[20:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So having your own space or having conversations about space is so difficult if you're merging a family. And what if everyone can't? What if you don't have the money for a 5000 square foot home where one has their own bathroom and bedroom? It's like sometimes people do have to share and that feels there's not always.

[21:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Enough room for activities.

[21:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Really difficult. And Dale's drum set should have been moved. It needed to be.

[21:15] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[21:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's another place where they're enabling him and they're not helping the families merge by being like, okay, fine, you can keep your drum set. You do have to make but then again, it's like but it's also hard on Dale.

[21:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This is his space. It's so delicate. And you just said but it's a comedic way of pointing out really challenging things that this happens all the time, right? Like family. Unfortunately, the divorce rate is high. And as we know, evidence says that it's better to have an amicable divorce than to stay in a bad relationship for your children. So a lot of people will stay married because they think that's what's best. Even though they're constantly fighting. It's tense, it's bad, it's like it's actually better to have. Not everyone can do this. Like an okay divorce where the parents.

[22:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Can co parent supportively.

[22:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That is great. Kids turn out great. But it's like these really messy things where there's a lot of **** talking. The other parental alienation. That's when things go really go south.

[22:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So then in terms of other common roadblocks, when people are merging families, what are some other things that you noticed this film depicted? And again, like a hugely ironic, funny way, but pretty accurately.

[22:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It felt like Brennan and Dale hadn't met before. They just got married really quick and they both had this big reaction at the wedding. And again, because it happened really fast, which again, they should be able to do because you have two, three. But like very adult children, that should be fine.

[23:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: But for younger kids, it is nice to have a transition period where you.

[23:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Slow process, get to know each other.

[23:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: You don't just move right in, right?

[23:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This is like mom's special friend who's coming for dinner a lot. And then there's these nice moments where there's like play and you're not in a parent role. You move slowly. Sometimes the snails pace, sometimes backwards. But it should be like friend and fun into kind of both into then like the caregiver role, right.

[23:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: But you don't just jump in and.

[23:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Expect and then make demand. Listen, right? Exactly. Never going to work.

[23:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[23:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But they should meet many times and do some fun things, right? Like go to the movies, go see a show. It's easier. And even this in general is good advice for people who are a little uncomfortable. Maybe like if you have some social anxiety, it's good to do things that you can talk about, right? Like go for a hike, go to see a movie, go get a pedicure. And don't just stare at each other and all hang out in your living room.

[24:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Go for a walk, play with something.

[24:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That'S so much easier to do than just having to talk to each other. So they should have done some events.

[24:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's hard, too, right, when two parents are falling in love and creating a relationship and they have children of their own, then you're like, well, the kids, you want the kids to get along. And what if they just don't? Right? That's got to be really challenging.

[24:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think it's difficult and there's not really anything you can do about this. But when kids are really the same age so if your mom starts dating your dad and you guys are in the same grade at school and then you move in together eventually, even if it's like the grade process and it was slow, it's like all of a sudden your step brothers in your class. That's hard. I think. Again, maybe not none of this is easy, but if you're like 15 and your new stepsister is seven, it's like that feels a little bit easier because the roles are so clear. You have your own identity. You're not having to mix friend groups or these expectations.

[25:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Or like, what if you were attracted to your new stepsibling or something? Like, if you're both teenagers, I mean, that is a I feel like that happens.

[25:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Do we also see a therapist patient depiction in this movie?

[25:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Which I forgot about, but then I was like, oh, this is perfect.

[25:44] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right?

[25:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: So we see that when Nancy and Robert are trying to push them out of the nest. They're like, we signed you I loved when they're talking to them and they're like, we put enough money in your account for security deposit, and we're going to give you another kind of support. We signed you up for therapy. And I was like, that was a really thoughtful way of introducing this idea. So we see Brennan in therapy with his therapist named Denise. What did you think of this, Portia?

[26:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So also, just like right? Playing on this other trope of right, you you have sexual relations with your therapist. They end up falling in love with you. They come on to you. They're obsessed with you. I think it happens with other providers, too. I don't know.

[26:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's always a female therapist, though. I mean, this is just like such a Nick Rope or Nick with you. But I'm just thinking, like, in suits, this happened. It's just in The Sopranos, we see this. I'm like, is this like a fantasy? I think it is, because it's teacher, too.

[26:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You see a lot.

[26:49] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

[26:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: You see that like a woman in power. But I just thought it was so funny. Again, looking at her office pretty good. That was pretty good. She's not wearing suggestive clothing. She's in, like, a business suit. And it's just so funny that she reflects something back to him. So basic. I think she's like, that must be hard. And you see Brennan go. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's it.

[27:16] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He loves know. He feels so seen. She's the only one who can understand him. Like, wow.

[27:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's like, oh my God, we're in love. And then throughout the rest of the movie, remember when Nancy's like, oh, Denise called and she said she's not your like, stop asking her. And he's like, did she say that?

[27:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That rascal. And he's like, no, she's not your girlfriend.

[27:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then she shows up at the end.

[27:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Of course she does, right? And is so moved by his singing. She's like and everyone is right. I mean, his singing is excellent. And also the song choice is just so funny. Perfect. Like it had to be Italian, right? He can sing in Italian. Like, he knows all the words. Of course it had to be and Dale is an excellent know it's like, you guys are great. You're actually very talented.

[28:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: And when finally pushed lovingly or hopefully lovingly, they can rise to the occasion. They're both working on their feet.

[28:15] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[28:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It seems like Brennan had planned the Catalina Wine Mixer, and Dale is working as a chef.

[28:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. Mark my words. Portia, remind me when I turn 40, I want to have a Catalina wine.

[28:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that's an excellent party theme for a 40th birthday. Right. I feel like this should be normal.

[28:35] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[28:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: So just remind me in a couple of years.

[28:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'll put in my calendar.

[28:39] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Thank you.

[28:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, but oh, my gosh. I mean, it was so funny, though, when she's showing up and Nancy's like, oh, hey. And again, it's like, oh, my God, these are such inappropriate boundaries. You're all calling her by her first name. Some therapists are fine with that, but I just feel like in this situation, probably not. And she's like, I had to come. I had a legal obligation because he threatened to harm himself. Back up. That doesn't mean you as therapist, show up.

[29:04] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[29:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Which again, this is a comedy. It's funny, but you call the police or things like that. But again, it is just depicting that Brennan has some problematic behaviors and boundary problems.

[29:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then Denise gets really angry and just starts calling all out the parents.

[29:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're enabling.

[29:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she has this moment, and you're like, wow. But yeah, guess. But maybe we could have said this in a way where everyone could have heard it in a session where you're being paid and it's like real then there's boundaries around that. Not at where I'm assuming people have had a couple wine mixers and then we see.

[29:46] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[29:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Derek try to be emotional with Brennan. And he can't. They're trying to hug and they're just like, leaning on each other, and it's so then, you know, Derek has this outburst, again, because he can't be nice to just it's funny, but it's so ridiculous.

[30:06] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[30:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's also like derek probably does have a lot of repressed emotion, like you're talking about. He does use the F word slur a lot, which is hard to watch nowadays. Looking back at some of these old movies, we're just like, oh, gosh.

[30:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because it's like the go to slur for any guy.

[30:25] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[30:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like such a put down with.

[30:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, oh, you're being this or you're being that.

[30:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's like, we don't have any.

[30:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Other creative ways to being like you're.

[30:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like a girl or you're gay. And all people said and I do think it's interesting because I think the F word is so much more shocking than like, oh, that's so gay. Right. I think that was really common. And everybody I'm not going to throw everyone under the bus, but that was something that I think most people said in the early two thousand s and.

[30:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Ninety s too much.

[30:54] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[30:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But really, I think still, the F slur was still reserved for more.

[31:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: It feels a little more aggressive. It does. It feels like more aggressive.

[31:06] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It does.

[31:06] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so now it feels really. Horrible, and I just think it was, like, a little bit of the times. But also, I do know that with my young adolescent clients, people still do say this. I think we're just also removed from it. I think it has changed a little bit, but I think it's still happening, and I would just love it to not.

[31:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. No, I totally agree. All right, well, so as we start wrapping up this episode again of one of the greatest movies of all, know, slurs aside, which, again, I don't want to minimize how awful it is to.

[31:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Use language like some just putting this out, there like, a little bit of racism thrown in there. When Derek is showing that couple the house, and he's, like, talking to them, and they're like, Why are you saying it like that?

[31:53] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

[31:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just call just call us, like, mean, I just think that's not funny know?

[32:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know.

[32:02] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[32:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, I hear you.

[32:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't think it ever should have been, but it feels so much more.

[32:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like it feels dated.

[32:07] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[32:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Let's be more creative.

[32:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Do you think they were doing that to point out this kind of behaviors from Derek?

[32:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think it was to point out that he would be like, um.

[32:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that it's, like, not um. Okay, but as we wrap up, I do think as budding entrepreneurs, I'm really curious to hear what you thought about their pitch to everyone at Derek's birthday party about Prestige Worldwide, because we keep talking about what can we do to get the word out about our podcast.

[32:45] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right?

[32:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, well, this is a creative idea.

[32:47] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[32:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe we should make a slide music video combined with a music video of a boat and show it at a party. Right. Can we do it really fast? I'm having one this weekend, and we could just show it.

[33:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think, though, the thing is that they showed it at a party with new people. Like, these weren't people they knew. Right. I think all of the people we know are already supporting us, which is great. So I'm like, okay, so what entrepreneur tips can I take from this video presentation? A music videos with a catchy song stick in your head. Like, I know all the words. The Santa, the Zena Maria do in the back while I'm drinking sangria. Like, we all know the words. Okay, so maybe that's an interesting tactic. Again, like, you keep saying we got to go viral. It's kind of similar. Right. And then pitching it to strangers with money, I guess, and wanting investments.

[33:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think that they just do such a good job of being bold. They are unashamed of who they are and what they're promoting. And at the end of their Know serenade at the Catalina Wine Mixer, I love how Dale in the background is saying potent hose, and then it's like Prestige Worldwide. So we have to do things like that.

[34:06] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, we do.

[34:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe we should do it at the end. This is a joke for people listening. At the end of our sessions, I'm just going to start saying, analyze Group.

[34:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'll see you next week. Because people are leaving, like, their hands on the door. You know how in our field there's always like the doorknob comment we talk about when people are leaving therapy and they're like, by the way, you're never going to make me cry.

[34:28] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right?

[34:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: By the way, I'm getting divorced.

[34:30] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[34:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: By the way, this by the way.

[34:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: I had this repressed memory. Come back and then, bye, see you in two weeks. I hope you enjoy your vacation. But this could be ours where people leave my script.

[34:40] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What?

[34:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you're like, oh, nothing.

[34:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, psychologically, which is not ethical. I'm going to implant these little whispers.

[34:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of the podcast, like subliminal messaging.

[34:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like you're going to play in the.

[34:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Waiting room, but like, backwards somehow.

[34:55] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[34:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: So it just gets in your head. Our theme song. Oh, my God. I just love it.

[35:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Speaking of being supportive, because we are entrepreneurs, we would love for you to follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts, on TikTok, at Analyze Scripts podcast and just follow along. Give us some recommendations like this. Rate us subscribe. Thank you for subscribing. We do have a lot of subscribers. It's awesome and we are so thankful for you. It's going up every week and we're reaching for the ride.

[35:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we've reached every continent, which is like, wild. We have at least one fan in Kazakhstan, like, who knew? What's up, Kazakhstan? So, yeah, we love the interaction. Let us know what you want to hear. Let us know what you think about this movie. Let us know. Do you enjoy throwback movies like this? Or current stuff? Just let us know.

[35:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, we'd love to hear from you.

[35:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: And hopefully if we can find it, we'll send you out with some boats and hose. See you next time.

[35:52] Huff & Doback: Boats and hose I got to have me my boats and holes boats and hose boats and holes I gotta have me my boats and hose boats and hose boats and hose I gotta have me my boats and holes I'll do you in the bottom while you're drinking sangria Nachos lemon heads my dad's boat. You won't go down cause my **** can float. We sail around the world and go port to port? Every time I come I produce a quad put on your life best lunch jump anchor there's a nice lady who I like to swank boats and holes boats and holes I got to have me my boats and hose boats and hose boats and holes I gotta have.

[36:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Me my boats and HODcast and its.

[36:45] Speaker E: Contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited unless you want to share it.

[36:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: With your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine.

[36:59] Speaker E: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Don't.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are analyzing "The Bear" season 1. We meet the chefs and other restaurant staff this season and WOW, was anyone else's heart racing? We root for Carmy and the restaurant to be successful but see poor interpersonal skills, trauma, grief and trust issues impact everyone. Mikey's story line is tragic and unfortunately a common reality when mental health issues combine with substance abuse and financial troubles. Be sure to watch this show with some snacks, we hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And your DSM Five and enjoy. We get started. We just wanted to include a trigger warning for this episode. This episode could include discussion about some themes and topics that might be upsetting, including, but not limited to things like substance abuse, suicide, self harm, disordered, eating, and harassment and assault. So if any of those topics are too upsetting, we totally get it. Please feel free to skip this episode and join us next week. Otherwise, we hope you enjoyed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hi. So we are back again with another episode, and we are going to refer to each other today as, like, yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Drink, yes shrink, yes, chef, cousin, cousin.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Whatever kind of comes to mind. We're not going to be swearing and putting each other down.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hopefully not kind of abusive, which we.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: See a lot in the show. The Bear, which you're coming today. Season one, kind of blew up recently over the summer. I definitely had not heard about it last year.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I hadn't really either.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was all over, like, TikTok. A couple months ago, Jeremy Allen White.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Is all in the news because he got a divorce. And I don't know all the details about it, but it seems to be, like a hot.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, yeah. People really like. So what how do you want to start talking about this? First, I would like to say that my blood pressure was so high, I'm making this up.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Okay. You weren't, like, checking it?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No. Watching some of these episodes, this level of stress that I was feeling, and my heart was racing, I was like, I feel like I'm back in a restaurant, and I'm not. Okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, you worked in a restaurant too at some point, right? Yeah, I did too. Only for, like, six months. Like, in between college and med school, I took a year off to apply, and it was really stressful. I worked in a Mexican restaurant. It's closed now, unfortunately, one of the owners embezzled money and went to federal prison. Fortunately. But I was trying to get out of this other job, and so when I applied, I said I was available for all shifts. So I got all the lunch shifts and made, like, no money, and I would have to come in early and clean, like, literally move the heavy tables, clean the windows. It was, like, a lot of hard work.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like, labor, labor, physical labor.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I lost a lot of weight because you're, like, running around all day. And I'll never forget my last day was Cinco de Mayo. I was like, I have to work Cinco de Mayo. Right? I'll never forget. The floor was, like, so sticky with tequila. It was a good restaurant. The food was really good. But at the pre shift meeting, one of my coworkers was like, hey, guys, I got Adderalls. Does anyone want one? And all these people took Adderall. And I was like, I'm good. I'll be okay. I don't know. It really shocked me. But then I guess in watching this show, and I don't know if in your training, you learned that there's a lot of mental health issues in the restaurant industry. Because I learned that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I mean, I think it seems like and of course, we're generalizing here, but in my experience, and even hearing from clients who work in the restaurant industry, there is so much substance use.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And with that often comes mental health issues. I'm just curious about who ends up in the restaurant industry. Right. I think you have to be really personable. You're really friendly, energetic. Energetic, I would say. And I think this is like, a little bit of just like anecdotal information. I feel like it's often kind of you have a little bit of ADHD. You're good, right? You can BOP brunch the 100% environment for you because it's so stimulating and.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It'S so quick, fast moving. I totally agree. And I think a lot of young people, I think, work in restaurants or bars or things like that when you're younger. But then I think you're right that there is a lot of substance use. I think there's, like, erratic hours does.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Not help mental health, sleep. And then I think people often might, in that example that you provided, will take something to help stay up.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And then oftentimes, once the restaurant closes, shifts over, I think people go out for drinks. Or then there's, like, substance use with downers, kind of. I think, like we said, it is really hard work. Like, physically demanding. I think the pay can be good, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Depends.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Depends. It fluctuates, and you don't really get benefits, so there's a lot of stress. It's certainly like, when we think about what are, like, risk factors, I guess, for mental health conditions, there's a lot of environmental risk factors just right there. And then you're also dealing with people who are hard to deal with. Right? Like, you have demanding customers, people complaining you're not doing it fast enough. There's a mistake. I can't imagine, right? Like, just all the complaints you have to deal with in a personable, happy way.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And now I always think about everyone having sensitivities or allergies right to foods and how many requests we're making. I do make one request, but I'm just thinking about how complicated things are now. Everyone at a table could be like, okay. And I've been at a table before where it's like, every single person has a something, and I'm just like, oh, man, it's just so much more work.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Than just accommodating like, a regular taco salad.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like, no cheese on this one, no meat on this one. We have to leave out the taco because it's corn based so much. It's a lot, and I think the pressure for certain people gets to them, and I think that's why we see.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Also just, like, a lot of abuse yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: With the hierarchy within the kitchen, and it can get really ugly.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. So when I started watching the Bear preparing for this, unfortunately, Hulu just, like, auto played the last episode of season two. I didn't get through the whole thing. We got through maybe the, like, ten or 15. No, I know. And then we're watching it, and I'm like, am I supposed to understand who these characters are and how they relate? And then all of a sudden, my husband noticed, and I was like it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Was like, s two, like, episode ten or something.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I was like, oh. So I felt like I had, like, a preview. Not in a great way, but then it's like, I don't think it's going to spoil all that much. So then we restarted it. But even in season one, we sort of see these flashbacks of Carme right. Played by Jeremy Allen White, the main character who worked in a really fancy like, they kept saying, the best restaurant in the world, and we saw Joel McHale. I was surprised to see in, like, a dramatic role. Do you know who Joel McHale is? Did you ever watch The Soup? No. Okay. Again, I'm older than you, but I.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Know I didn't like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't love him. No offense. That's okay to him. If you're listening, that's okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Does he have any weird outcomes?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I just don't think he's funny. No. To me. And maybe he is now, but I remembering watching The Soup and being like, not your thing.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's fine, but yeah, dark, like, abusive. And it was very hierarchical, like, almost like the military. It kind of reminded me of and you have to go up the chain and sort of that kind of thing. In prepping for this episode, I did some quick research, and it does seem like the restaurant industry hospitality has very high rates of depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and harassment, which I think makes sense, like, if you've ever worked in one. And then I think this show really accurately portrays that. Like, you were saying in watching it, your heart rate is high, your blood pressure is high, you feel stressed, and you're like, God, it is a lot. It's a lot.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, when they had finally implemented the to go, oh, my gosh, and they didn't notice that they had done, like, preorder selection, and it was just, like, coming out of the machine. I was just I felt like, I mean, a good acting, good storyline sucked me in. I don't know if it's because I can, like, I have some restaurant experience, but I was just like it's like a trauma response. So some people freeze, some people flee, and other people freak out and fight. Whoa.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Interesting to see everyone's individual response. And carmi just freaked. Like, it was almost I felt like his explosion of pent up emotion. Right. I feel like his sister Sugar had been saying, you're not expressing things. And he wasn't really he was really holding it in, and then it just all exploded. Like, he couldn't take it anymore. I was really proud of Sydney and Marcus for walking away and being like, we don't tolerate know I didn't see that coming, but I was really proud of them for doing that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think what I thought was interesting was when we see Carme working at that Michelin star restaurant, and he's being right, like, verbally berated saying all these horrible things to him. I thought it was so interesting because Sydney and, like, have a similar experience with working at higher end places. They know, yes, chef. Behind you, chef, all that stuff. So Sydney, in one of the later episodes when she is accidentally a stabs richie in the behind. But also, you see her absolutely berating him. Right. She's like, you're a loser, your kid, your partner. And I think for her, that almost felt like she was so horrified, almost, that that's how she had become in this place. Right. Because her and Carmen talked about how horrible that was, and then she did it, and it's like, place brought it out of her. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's like the abuse becomes the abuser, which we see. I'm thinking more along the lines of children who grew up in abusive environments and then sort of take on those behaviors in adulthood. It's reminding me of that. Yeah. And I feel like she couldn't it was really sad. And when she was sitting there at the lockers, and he was like, are you okay, chef? And she's just like, no. And it's like, no, you're not. You're right. And she has to walk away. And I think you're right. I think it was a combo of Carmen berating her, but then her doing that too.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. And losing it, and right. They are these experts, and she's holding the knife right out. No intention right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Of like yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: First she's waving around, but then she's pointing it out, and he just, like, turns like, you don't ever walk with a knife pointing out. That stuff can happen.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Exactly. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And you can stab someone in the a fatty tissue place where it's, like, less right, right. Whoa.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And so, again, it's just like, how did all that come to be? Was it, like, stress? Was it trauma? Probably a mix of everything. Also, like, Richie I don't like him. There have been very few characters so far in all the shows and movies we've watched, which is quite a bit by now, where I really don't like them. Like, the whole time I'm watching it, I'm trying to find something redeeming. And since I did see the first.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Ten minutes of the final episode of.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Season two, and I see what role he assumes and he's behaving a little differently, spoiler alert. It's not much of a spoiler, but still, I kept trying to find something redeeming about him, and I had a really hard time. What about you?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that I really did not like him until the last episode, and I wouldn't even say I like him. I feel like I just have empathy for him. I feel sorry for him.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Why? That's where I struggled.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I feel like he is so broken.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I want to know nothing story. Maybe we learn it because they said in season two read an article that was like, season two gets right with the only thing that season one got wrong, which is like, there was no backstories for anyone. We didn't know anything about anyone. And so I'm wondering if we get his because I'd be so curious.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It just seems like he's.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And why he was really hearing what Sydney was saying when she's calling him a loser.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I feel like he feels like he's.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: A loser, and he's a loser in every way. And then he talks about his daughter saying to his ex or her mom, right. Like, he's bad news, Richie or something.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I just feel like that's more.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I feel bad. I don't like him. I don't want to be his friend by any means. I don't want him to be around him. But I just feel sorry for yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I kept wanting to feel sorry for him and trying to access that empathy, but I had a really hard time. And again, I hear what you're like. It seems like before Mikey died by suicide, richie was, like, the head guy, like, maybe the manager, or like, he was, like, running the show. And then I think to have Carme and Sydney come in, like, out of Sydney, a younger girl, a younger black girl, which, again, maybe that's not intentionally getting under Richie's skin, but maybe it is. We don't really know yet. But again, I could see how that would threaten his ego, because this is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All that he has. And then he kind of says that at the end, right when Carmen picks him up from the jail, which I thought was really interesting. And this is a little bit of a sidebar, but I think it's so risky, little PSA, to ever be in a fight with someone that's physical, because we all talk. Oh, someone says something to you. Everyone's drunk in a bar. A bar fight, right? Someone gets punched in the face. It doesn't seem crazy, but it's like the wrong hit you could fall. You hit your head, you can die. And it's like now it's literally manslaughter. And it's like things can escalate so quickly where it's like it's not just like right, a punch in the schnaws or getting pushed.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's like hitting your head wrong on the curb.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. I'll never forget and I'm going to talk very loose circumstances here, but witnessing someone hit someone and they fell and they hit their head on the curb, that's scary. They got up. But I know another instance that I did not witness but happened at my college.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Even like if you're super intoxicated and you fall the wrong way right. You could die.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's really know. And I don't know if it's just like I respected and this is such a stretch. I respected Richie for completely owning that he was the one that did he there was, you know, because it was messy. Right. Everyone's pushing, pushing. And there was no question he was going to take the and I think that's also when he comes out, he's like, no, this is all I have. I would do anything for you. It seems like they connect. I'm curious to see in season two how that plays out. I'm hoping that that's like a change then for Richie.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But up until that episode, I was so irritated with him. He just kept messing everything over and over.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's what I mean. And I do think that's like the perfect depiction. And I'm like I am really curious. And I hope we do learn more about his backstory because I wouldn't be surprised if he had, like if I'm making it up. Really critical parents, like one parent who's really critical, one who's absent, whether it's because of substance abuse or like a father left or something like that, that's setting him up to never feel good enough. So he's going to keep trying, keep trying. And then he just gets to the point where it's still never good enough and he starts getting in his own way.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like he just kept messing up. Yes. Like when they did the kid's birthday party and he doesn't bring the ketchup. Right. His Xanax.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh my God.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And the drink and all the kids pass out and no one calls the ambulance.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was like, waiting for your take on that. I was just like, dying.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: When they just show, all the kids.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Pass and the guy right? They're like mobster uncle is like, well, this is preferable, to be honest. Because he's like annoyed, right? Kids suck. Kids are annoyed.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Kids are annoyed. At least they're quiet.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I was like, are they breathing?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Has anyone put their fingers under their nose to see?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Is their breath?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh my God, I can't believe no one called the police or the is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Such a bare minimum, and you're going to be like, you're crazy. But I was kind of pleasantly surprised that Carmen told him. Right? I feel like, it could have been like, oh, because you could literally go to jail for that. Again, not intentionally, but you could go to jail.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Maybe you should. Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So the fact that he told him.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I was like, okay, at least have.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: A moral compass in there.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Get somewhere in there, I guess. Yeah, but then no one does anything.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I was thinking would have been in there, right? Let's talk about that. Because it looks like it was one bottle. So were they like, bars?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's how Xanax comes, right? I don't remember what the dose was. So Xanax is the trade name for Elprazolam, which is a very short acting benzodiazepine. Incredibly addictive, right? That's why most people don't prescribe it, hopefully, except in very specific circumstances, like flight phobia or something like that, where you only need a little relief for a little bit of time.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You're not getting prescriptions every month for it. It's like you're getting ideally, right? Like, once a year should be enough. I think providers feel comfortable with that.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Depending on the situation. I think, unfortunately, it is really abusable. And the reason it's so abusable is because it is so short acting. So it hits your system really quickly, like, within 30 minutes or so, you feel so good, you feel a lot calmer, but then it's out of your system really quickly, too. So then you're like, oh, I need more, I need more. And thus starts the cycle of dependency and addiction. And again, I specifically use those words because there's a difference, right? You can become physically dependent on a medication like this. Like, your brain gets used to it. If you don't have it, you develop withdrawal symptoms. You need more. You can have that without perhaps being addicted. But again, they kind of go hand in hand, I guess. But with addiction, you also think of it as like, okay, then you start doing riskier things to obtain it, right? Like, you might start stealing, or you might start obtaining it illicitly, like, on the street, or you might be spending a whole lot of time trying to find it at the expense of work or spending time with your family. There's a lot of criteria that go into addiction, but you can also be physically dependent on I mean, that is like, one of the main criteria, too.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I believe right. You can die from the withdrawals from.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: A benzo 100% class. Yes. Benzos act on the GABA receptors in the brain, very similar to alcohol. So it's also incredibly dangerous to mix benzos with alcohol. When you're intoxicated with both, what can be fatal is the respiratory depression. Basically, you start breathing so slowly that you could stop breathing. And that's what I was worried about with these kids, just, like, sleeping. I was like, is anyone making sure they're breathing and they're getting enough oxygen to their brains? Like, these little kids getting whatever the adult dose is. I mean, it looks like the whole bottle got in there somehow. Who knows how much is in there was so dangerous. And then if you are addicted or physically dependent on alcohol or benzos and you just try to quit cold turkey, that's also potentially fatal because you can develop seizures and cardiac instability. So, like, really high blood pressure, really high heart rates, you could have a stroke, you could die. So it's really dangerous. I was very uncomfortable with that whole.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, you need a medical detox, right, versus, like opiates. It's a horrible detox, but you can stop. You won't be very sick, you won't die. But a couple of kids, and I say kids because they were under 18, who I worked with in a residential program, if they were abusing benzos, they would still be on them, right? So they would come in and they'd receive a lower and a lower dose versus some of the kids who were on opiates, they would be very sick or they would have been in a very fast detox like in the hospital.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I did a lot of detoxing when I worked at the VA in residency, and I did a lot of time in the emergency room there. So that was like one of the main things we saw. And you're totally right that alcohol or benzodiazepine detox is medically necessary. Like you could die. And that was like one of the hardest conversations to have with patients when they would get to day two. And of course they're waiting for a bed because we don't have enough access to treatment in the whole country. We've already talked about this. But by day two, they're starting to feel cravings. They want to get out of there and we have to have the discussion like you're just starting the detox. We still don't know which way it's going to go. There's like risk factors and algorithms we can keep in mind to help predict it, but we just don't really know. You could get delirium tremons, which is potentially fatal. I mean, it's really scary and a lot of times they would leave against medical advice and probably start drinking again, which is very sad. But then in other ways you're like, well, I guess it mitigates the risk of death from an unsupervised detox, but it's really risky. But you're right. With opiate withdrawal, that's where the phrase cold turkey comes from. It feels like the worst flu of your life. It's incredibly painful to go through, but it's not medically dangerous. So in either way, like with benzo or alcohol withdrawal, we do taper using the benzos. And then you can also give other medications to help with other symptoms to help make people more comfortable. And then with opiate withdrawal, some places will start, like Suboxone once you're a couple of days out to make sure there's enough out of your system where it doesn't plunge you into a worse type of withdrawal. But then you also give other agents to help make people feel more comfortable. So that too, it's like ideal if you can do a medical detox, but not medically dangerous if you're just trying to quit, like, on your own.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Circling back now to restaurant employees right. Often not having insurance.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And being or I think, too, what's interesting now is with a lot of credit card tips right. That is on the books versus cash tips. So it's like they pay taxes on right. So you could be, I think, right on the line with, like, you don't make a ton, but you also don't qualify for Medicaid or full Medicaid. So I just think there's a lot of people that are underinsured or not insured who specifically work in this field of know with with sometimes raging substance use issues and mental health issues. It's just like a perfect storm.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. And I mean, most detoxes would be at least five days. So when you're imagining, like, in restaurants, you often do, I think, live day to day in terms of your income. It's not predictable. You're not going to have short term leave or things like that. It's really hard to think, like, I'm going to take five days away and somehow pay for this treatment and make up for not and then come back. The same environment.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's really tough.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I was just thinking about Mikey in that and just like, it seemed like he was struggling for a while with opiate abuse, and some people knew, some people didn't. And that was kind of really eating at Carme for not knowing.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. So what did you think about Mikey's story and then this show's depiction of addiction and grief and people reacting to someone's suicide.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was good. I thought it did a good job of showing multiple reactions and responses, which I think hits the nail on the head with everyone will respond differently. I think if we look at it in kind of a black and white way, like, some people shut down, other people have really big reactions immediately. So it's like right. Someone if you're picturing at a funeral, which is kind of morbid, there's people who are, like, wailing and visibly upset for weeks. Tanya from Lettuce. Yes. And then there's people who are just totally shut down right. Haven't cried at all. And that doesn't mean that they're not processing it or grieving, but I'd say because they might be doing it at home. But if you're not doing it at all, I think then sometimes there's a bigger reaction that comes out later, which we see with Carmen kind of starting to lose it or some of his other symptoms, which I was curious to get your take on with some of the nightmare being sleepwalking. Right. And in his apartment earlier on, it seems like he's having a horrible time sleeping, which isn't helping any of his symptoms. And then at the end, we see, right. Him kind of what appears to be maybe he's, like, dissociating when he tries to light a cigarette and then the whole stove catches on fire. Two different things, I feel, like, all around fire, too.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I mean, I think you're totally right. Portia this show, I thought, again, another expert portrayal of grief, and I think the complicated grief that comes from losing someone to suicide, of all things. Like, just how many questions are know Carmen? No one saw a note until the very end, and it's still in my mind. It's like, Was that a suicide note? I think so.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it was meant to be, but it wasn't, like, by the know, maybe not by Mikey, but it just.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Wasn'T it wasn't clear. And I think in the know, it sounds like Mikey and Carmee, they were brothers, right? They sort of bonded over cooking. And then Mikey goes on to open the Bear, but then won't let him.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Eat the beef store.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Sorry, the beef, but then won't let Carmen work in it. And that created a really big rift in them. And I think we still don't really understand why he wouldn't let him in. I started wondering, was there some connection to organized crime? It seemed like Richie maybe had a connection. And those feuding groups on the corner that Sydney placated with the sandwiches and even, like, the Uncle Jimmy, I was like, Is he a like, is that why Carmen wasn't he was trying to keep him away? Or was there something like, is that how Mikey got introduced to Opiates? There were a lot of questions for me, but then that was, like, a real wedge in their relationship. And it sounds like in the very last episode with Carmen's Monologue at Al Anon, first of all, how moving was. But then we finally start learning some of this backstory, and it sounds like that almost, like, fueled Carmen's desire to show, like, just achieve know, really escalate to the best of the best, to be like, you're lost, dude, and then gosh, how complicated and confusing for carme to lose your brother in that way. And then learn that he left the restaurant, that he'd never let you work into you, and you have to leave your position at this best restaurant in the world to come here. Like, Whoa.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And also was and maybe it didn't feel like a choice, but that was his choice, that a lot of people were like, what are you like, you didn't need to come back. I think Richie was upset that he was coming back and taking over. I think the staff initially were all.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Upset that he was, because it seemed like the like, Tina Ibrahim, like, all the staff, it seems like, had been there for that. They forever, right? And then all of a sudden, you have Carme coming in out of nowhere again, this white guy. A lot of the staff. Were people of color. And then he hires Sydney, this young girl, and they're like cleaning everything up, operationalizing things. And I could imagine and we see how the old crew reacted and we're like about it. Yeah, exactly. But then eventually they do warm up to it. And I did think at the beginning, Carme was really respectful in terms of saying, we call each other chef. We have high standards. This is what you need to do well. And at first, they weren't really believing it. Like the family dinners I thought were so I never had that at the.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Restaurant I worked at. Right. I was like, Where did this come from?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This is really nice. We all have dinner before it's. Like, that's really nice. I think eventually it did help them sort of get on board.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But it took a while, especially with Tina.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And know, it seemed like Tina kind of bought know after a little bit with Carmee, but then it was really like an interesting dynamic watching her and Sydney, and then Tina pretending not to speak English, like, here and there. And Sydney's like, I know you can you just were doing it and calling.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Carme Jeff instead of Chef. Just all these slight jabs. I can't remember what it was that finally got her to come around, but eventually she did with Sydney.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was something with the potatoes, right? So, like, Tina didn't burned something or something and then Sydney already had it going, but didn't criticize. Tina was like, just get it over with, do it. And Sydney was like, no, it's fine. And then she complimented her later. And then I think Tina was like, okay, we're good.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. Sydney kind of like, helped her out instead of rubbing her nose in it. But getting back to, I think what you originally asked me about grief, I also thought it was interesting that I was like, is there a gender dynamic here? Because his sister seems to be more openly grieving or at least talking about the death. She's like, trying to get him to go to Al Anon, which to me suggests she's going to Al Anon and then Carmi is really closed. And I I think you could say that might be a more stereotypical man reaction.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'm sure it depends on generalizing, super.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Generalizing, like, depends on different families structures and dynamics and stuff like that. But I think what is that old phrase? What is it we talk about a lot with trauma? Like what you won't remember eventually comes out or something. What you try to avoid thinking about eventually comes out, whether you like it or not. Death of anyone can be very traumatic, but I think a suicide in particular is very traumatic for all the people involved. And it sounds like in Mikey's case, it's like, was it planned or was it impulsive? Right? Like, was he intoxicated and had a mean it's not really clear until we find the note, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What did you think?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it was unclear. I mean, I think I could go on the one hand with him stashing the money for so long. Was he planning on ending his life for that time, or was that just like a side project of him? Just like, stashing all this money away to avoid taxes? To avoid taxes or in the end to give to Carme? I don't know. Was his plan like, okay, Carme is going to be this amazing chef, and then we're ready for him, we're going to have all this money? Or was it like, I know I'm going to die? I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's a weird spot to leave a suicide note, right? Usually I feel like if someone does leave a note, it's with the body, like it's nearby.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Do you think it was maybe, though, supposed to be in a locker and fell out? Like, maybe, like, Carmen's locker from years ago? Because that was my question. Why was it behind lockers, the lockers on the floor? Had it fallen somewhere? Was it supposed to not be there? I don't know. Did he mean to bring it with?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's what I mean.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: How could anyone find that? Someone could have easily thrown it away, could have easily gotten damaged by water or something. It just was so risky. And also right. If you're leaving someone, like, $300,000, you want that to get to them. So that was just strange.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was strange.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Why do you think Richie put it back?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think at that time, when he first found it, he was still really mad at Carmen for coming in. In this season, we really see how the landscape of Chicago, the landscape of their neighborhood, the landscape of the restaurant itself is changing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Gentrified.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes, exactly. And I think Richie's like having an identity cris and not on board, and I think he was just at that time, really mad at Carmen, didn't want to help him along.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I guess this is where my little thread of empathy comes out. It's like he could have thrown it out.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's very true. Why did he put it back?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Put it back.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's actually a nice point, Portia.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't and there's million different reasons why, but I'm thinking maybe it was because not right for Carmen. But he couldn't do that to not. He's he wasn't just being this huge. Ahole.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There was just something in there. I don't think it was he was looking out for Carmen. He didn't think Carmen was ready.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe. But there was something.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You're so right. He could have thrown it. Oh, okay. Now I'm feeling something for him.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You're right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like, he definitely could have, and he didn't.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. That's really making me think. Really making me think.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So we know from past episodes how important sleep is, right. And how the lack of sleep can literally bring someone right to have some psychosis.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, and mania like sleep is the biggest trigger of a manic episode. Psychotic episodes, for sure. I've seen a lot of first breaks in college. Students who were flying internationally didn't sleep on the plane. That's what brought it out, finally, which.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Is what you said, that I am good because I went to Europe and I was up for like 48 hours and I'm fine. I was like, that's a really good sign. You don't bipolar disorder in Portia winning in some ways here, but also in.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: The restaurant industry, like other industries, too, like if you're working third shift or other things like that, it is so disruptive to your sleep. And I think the high energy, fast paced environment of restaurants makes it really hard, even when you get home to fall asleep. I think that is why so many have a drink after work or take another substance like Xanax to try to calm their brain down.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's also so bright in the kitchen. You know what I mean? It has to be, but the lights are so fluorescent. It's so bright and shiny in a cleaner restaurant. I was impressed at how much they were cleaning.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I was very happy. I think, again, that's, like, where Carme comes in and is like, this is unacceptable, even if we're like a sandwich, like, let's have high standards for ourself. And I thought, that's a nice way to live as long as the standards aren't impossibly high. But I think it does. And we saw that it did lead to feelings of self efficacy and pride in your work. But yeah, certainly you hope all the restaurants are that clean. I sort of doubt they all are.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's so funny, like, being kind of near New York and going and right. And seeing the know, just kind of how they showed in Chicago, because they don't do that in the like I'm sure there's, like, a public health infected, but they don't have that in the.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Window, which I just think is so, like and it was interesting, like, when they didn't get a good grade, and he's, like, blaming Richie, but then it turns out it was his fault. That's like another time where he was sort of like kind of I did, I think at least in the initial time where he was setting his apartment on fire, they both felt dissociative to me. And I think that's part of his trauma response.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Just like trying to keep putting 1ft in front of the other, but you're not processing what you're feeling, and it will inevitably come out and sort of that's how it was coming out at the end with the fire in the kitchen. At first I thought, is he going to intentionally let the restaurant burn down and be like, okay, now it takes care of it. But then everyone sort of grabbed the fire extinguisher and took care of it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that was an intense scene. So, like with Mikey's suicide, I think we kind of talked a little bit around the edges here. But suicide, I would consider is like a complicated loss, right? So there's some losses that are really uncomplicated. Like losing a grandparent in a natural way, right? It's like it's sad and can be really life shattering, but it's expected. It's like the natural way of life. And those losses are typically more easy to process, just like as a human. But then these complicated losses, like losing a child as a parent or losing a parent when you really suicide exactly. Or really unexpected deaths are complicated. And it doesn't mean that this is way harder or it's a much bigger loss, but it's just a different loss. And I think it can make it harder to process. And I would really say specifically with suicide, because there are so many times that people somebody does die by suicide, the people who are left right, are often like, what did we miss? How did I not see this? How could I have stopped it? And there's so many of those lingering questions that we don't ask ourselves when again, it's like a grandparent has an attribute loss.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And sometimes you ask yourself those questions right. In the grieving. Like, when we think about grief, that is a common, universal human experience right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There'S the what stage would that be like? Bargaining. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So there's Elizabeth Kubler Roth has her five stages of grief theory shock, denial, bargaining, anger, acceptance. We don't think of people as moving through those stages linearly. Like, you can feel things at the same time. You can go back and forth. But those are like, the universal emotions all humans feel. When you're grieving in the field of mental health, then we sort of think about, okay, what's like a typical grief reaction versus, like, a complicated grief reaction? And again, it's not because we're trying to have grief Olympics where one person is worse than the other. It's just grieving. A suicide is very complicated, and I think it is traumatic. I think a lot of people develop trauma reactions or even post traumatic stress disorder when these things happen. And I think you hit the nail on the head portia that it leaves so many questions and people when you're faced with an unimaginable trauma, you try to make sense of it. And a lot of times that leads you to blaming yourself. And that's where really good therapy is important. And sometimes you can find that, like in Alanon, which is the sort of what would you call it?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's for people who have been impacted by people with substance use. So someone who is struggling themselves currently or in the past, who goes to know that's typically for them, and then maybe their brother, their sister, their parents would go to Al Anon, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Exactly. And it can be a really healing, helpful place. And finally carme started. I was I remember, like, midway through the season when things were really stressful. He's like, I have to go. I have to go to a meeting. And then Sydney was like, you just left us here. And they finally sort of connected over it, remember? And then she was like, Chef, that's too much.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And he's like she's like, I'm just kidding. But yeah. I think to lose anyone by suicide has got to be devastating and traumatizing and so hard to cope with. So there are resources out there. I mean, in terms, of course, your own individual therapy, but Nami, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, certainly has a lot of resources available to people who have lost loved ones by suicide. I would imagine that feels lonely, right. Hard for someone to talk to their friends about, or their family about, if they haven't gone through it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think there's a lot of perceived and it might not be real or not, but like, perceived judgment from others. I know that a lot of parents who have lost teens to suicide really feel like there's a lot of judgment on them for they should have known, they should have stopped it. So I think it's really hard to reach talk to people who haven't experienced it, and what a wonderful way for a very horrible thing to occur. But if you can find a group with other shared experience, it can be so helpful and such a safe space. Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think it's really scary to start attending a group. Whether it's group therapy or a support group, I think it can be really scary. And that's totally normal if you're feeling like that. I always try to encourage my patients, just go sit in the back and just see, test it out. You don't have to say anything, just see what it's like. And I always say not everything's going to stick. Especially things like AA. There's a lot of resistance to it from different people. And some people don't identify with the religious aspect. There are non religious AA groups out there these days. But I always try to tell people, like, go take what works and leave the rest. You don't have to accept everything to find some healing or benefit from some of the things. But there are, I think, nami, and I'm sure, other groups out there with support groups or people who've lost loved ones to suicide. I think that's a uniquely terrible way to lose someone you love. And especially when there's substance abuse, too. It's just even murkier, right? And you could see these characters really be like, how did we not see it? Should I have done more? And it's just I think a lot of the healing and therapy comes from just exploring that with people and trying to help people not blame themselves. But it's really it is really hard.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's heartbreaking and it's hard. And not to deter anyone from going to see a therapist, but it's hard as a therapist to sit in that. I think grief is hard because there's no really clear treatment plan based on time, right? It's like, okay, well, we should be processing this better now. Sometimes it's shorter and other times it's so long and grief is challenging. And I know even additionally to that, a lot of clients who are a support for someone who is going through grief, it's so hard just to sit and be there because we want to make people feel better, right? We want to get people okay and feeling happy and positive and sometimes it's just not we can't do that yet and we just have to wait.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And that's hard.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It is hard as a provider and it's hard as obviously a person who's not a provider.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And sometimes when people do die in very tragic ways, it is hard to bear witness and sit with someone in that suffering. But it's so important. And again, I think that's where it's really important for therapists to also know their own limits or have their own support system, right? We're all supporting each other. But you're right, it is really hard to bear witness to grief, I think, as we wrap up. Isn't it interesting that thus far in our podcasting journey, there have been some common themes of shows that are big hits in society and a lot of them are about like, we talked about shrinking, we talked about succession season four with Logan's death. Now we have the like I think, again, that just speaks to how grief is such a universal experience and we all can connect to that. Yeah, that's a good know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think a lot of people resonate with tough topics and whether it's we're seeing it done in a comedic way or really dramatic and intense way, it's like everyone knows someone who knows someone or themselves who struggled with substance use. Everyone knows someone is someone who struggled with grief. And it's just like, again, these universal experiences that I think it can be really helpful to have a media or write some content out there that helps you cope, whether you're crying through a show or laughing through a show 100%, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's like a way of connecting and experiencing it or feeling less alone, right. I think we're all wanting to feel like someone out there understands what we're going through. And even if it's not, or most of the time it's not the exact same experience, but these shows really let you know, like, okay, the writers, the creators, the actors, they're all doing such a good job because they know in some intimate way and then whoever's watching it can also feel understood. Even like the whale, everything, everywhere, all at once. Like everything. These themes are coming up again and again and I think these expert portrayals of it are just so great to have.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And that's why they're nominated, right? That's why also these are successful.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So it's really interesting. I'm excited to see where season two.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Leads now that you have maybe a little window into some things. I'm excited to watch it too. I'm looking forward to it. I was laughing because I started episode one, season one, and I was like, trying to get my husband to come watch it. And he was like, oh my gosh. And he has restaurant experience too. And he was just like, I don't know if I can watch this. And I was like, it's really intense. I don't know. Anyway, but thanks for listening to our episode today on The Bear, season one. We will be covering season two at some point, so stay tuned.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think next month.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, so we're excited. Make sure you follow us on Instagram for some more content at Analyze Scripts and on TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast, and we will see you next time.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Bye bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Sam our channel.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're diving in to analzye the Amazon Freevee breakout hit comedy "Jury Duty." We sincerely enjoyed how funny this show was and how much planning went into it. AND YET, IS RONALD GLADDEN OKAY?!? As mental health professionals, we couldn't help but think about the ethical considerations of throwing someone into a real life "Truman Show" situation. We can see how something like this could totally backfire if there were a history of trauma or genetic predisposition to psychosis. It seems like Ronald is doing okay from what we can find online, but we're quite concerned about him! RONALD IF YOU'RE READING THIS - PLEASE SEND AN SOS IF YOU NEED HELP! ALSO WE'D LOVE TO HAVE YOU ON THE PODCAST! We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Furey, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. Today we are throwing a curveball at you, and we are talking about a funny little show on Amazon's freebie called Jury Duty. Have you heard of it? Have you heard of it? I hope the answer is yes, because it's hilarious.

[01:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Wild show that I obviously was very I missed a couple things when I was watching it. I had a very different experience.

[01:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: So, Portia, please share with the class.

[01:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I must have missed the scene, the word, the moment, and maybe it was minutes, but I don't know what I was doing where at the beginning of every episode that Ronald was the one who was real. So I had no idea. I thought that I didn't find out until he was literally called up and the judge told him.

[01:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: So you found out along with him.

[01:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: In a way.

[01:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: You were watching it along for the ride.

[01:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was wild. I knew it was a documentary. I thought it was like you were.

[01:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Watching it like a murder mystery, like trying to figure out which one's the real person. But everyone else was watching it and caught the big message in black and white at the beginning of the first episode and at the beginning of every.

[02:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Other episode, because I was fast forwarding, like, maybe preview and maybe like, yeah, I've seen that already.

[02:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that says, like, everyone's an actor except Ronald.

[02:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I saw every view, the bold letters, and then except one person.

[02:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: See, ronald.

[02:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The word ronald. So I had a wonderful time watching.

[02:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: This show, trying to figure out who was the real person.

[02:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I really want to rewatch it because now that I know that, which is.

[02:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: The last episode when they're so funny.

[02:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Showing him all the things, I was like, how on earth did this person think this was all real when this was so ridiculous? And he said, right, a lot of times, said, this is like a reality TV show. Like, this is insane.

[02:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. So before you figured out it was Ronald, did you think someone else was the real person?

[03:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No. Maybe I knew it wasn't the plaintiff or the defendant, but I don't know what I was thinking.

[03:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think I was just, like, watching.

[03:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was trying to watch it fast. It was very reminding me of The Office with the cuts and how it was a documentary, almost, which was right. I laughed out loud. My husband does not like The Office at all. Or like Parks and Rec. He doesn't like that vibe at all. And I think he would. I'm always like, you have to watch season one. You have to get into it and get to the characters. Because I get the first episode of.

[03:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: The Office I watched.

[03:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I didn't like, but this was so funny right away.

[03:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I laughed out loud when you told me you missed that it was Ronald. The whole I'm also kind of jealous. I wish I had watched it. Trying to figure out who was the mole, like, who was the real person who's on The Truman Show, right? It's so funny to me for.

[04:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I really don't know how that happened.

[04:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I really find myself wondering if he thought Todd was the real person, the.

[04:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Inventor, I think, just because I was.

[04:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, there's no way.

[04:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, but maybe like I don't know. I really wasn't thinking about it a lot. I was just, like, laughing at how absurd everything was.

[04:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Absurd is a great word. So, again, if you haven't watched this yet, please do. It's so funny. And it's a quick watch. It's funny, it's enjoyable, it's lighthearted, it'll make you laugh at the end of a long day. It got nominated for four Emmys, which I think surprised everyone, maybe, especially James Marston, who got nominated for an Emmy. He cracked me up, right? Like, just such a perfect portrayal of what we think ****** actors would be. Even when they're know at the beginning trying to select the jury, and they're asking him, have you ever served on a jury? He's like, yeah, I can.

[05:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Judge is like, what?

[05:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, no. He thinks everyone knows him. And they kind of do, but they don't. I forgot he was in the notebook. I didn't remember that.

[05:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

[05:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: You just think of Ryan Gosling. It's so funny. And I loved how Sonic the Hedgehog kept coming up. You probably haven't seen that movie Portia, but I have. It's like the worst movie ever. And it's so long. It's like 3 hours long. But he's in it. Jim Carrey's in it. So it I was like, Love promise.

[05:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, right?

[05:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Kids love it. But for like, it's like nails out chocolate. It's so long and it's just not that good. But kids love it's. A blockbuster hit. But it was so funny how they were talking about Sonic.

[05:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Ronald. It was so funny, him playing. He's so nice.

[05:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: So nice.

[05:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's what everyone just kept saying. They thought that he would be mad. I liked how they referred to him as hero on the script. And so when James was mad at him know, from the early on, and then he brings the cake in and it was like it was really important that Ronald and him repair yeah, just.

[06:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like at the birthday party for Ross when James, I don't want this party. And everyone's like, It's not for you. Oh. I loved, I guess, in the final episode, seeing all the behind the scenes stuff and how it was almost like a choose your own adventure, like, okay, if he reacts this way, we're going to do this, and blah, blah, blah.

[06:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then high fiving, like when he would do something or I loved the fact that they could not believe that he took the bait from Noah first episode asking, how do I get out of this? And that he said, which is like, a ha ha, funny known thing, like, to say something horrible, right, to get off jury duty. I'm a racist. I'm a like, it's like, you have to see this. Unbelievable does. And they're all, like, dying in the.

[07:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Back because he says and then Noah.

[07:06] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Obviously is acting, but then says it to try to get out of it. And you see Ronald looking around.

[07:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: When they all have to be sequestered. And then James Marsden's like, oh, you know, I got this cop I'm going to pay to stay with me so I don't have to go with you guys. And it's like, his fault. Oh, my God. I just can't. I just can't. I mean, I think all along the way, the whole thing is like, how did he not figure it out? But it seems like it was really well done. And maybe Ronald, I mean, he does just seem like a really nice person. So then it's like, did anyone feel bad that we were doing this to thought? I felt kind of weird at the end. In the final episode, when they're revealing it to him that Ronald looks shocked and his whole world has been turned upside down, which it has been, but then everyone around him is, like, smiling and high fiving and like, ha. Wasn't that funny? And we did it, guys, and just a lot of camaraderie. But then that was weird to me.

[08:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was. I think the $100,000 needed to make it sweet, right? If they were just like, ha ha, jokes on you. Bye. See you. But I think it's like you're being paid not off you're being paid off to have tolerated this. But then it's experiment, a social experiment.

[08:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what it is. And that's where I was like, how could they do this legally? When we do scientific experiments, you need informed consent. And I would imagine when you're agreeing to be in a documentary, you sign paperwork.

[08:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And maybe it wasn't in there, as in, like, it explicitly said, but I'm sure there was language in probably vague enough.

[08:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, but then it's so clear that you're tricking him. That's the whole point. So they also had to make sure he didn't get really mad at them because it's also like, what, two weeks of your life away from your family and your job and everything, and I don't know. How does it sit with you? The psychological side to me is like, how did they get away with this?

[09:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. Which is so important? I mean, they said right, out of 2500 people who applied, they picked him. And I'm wondering if there was any psychological evaluation or person kind of helping that, because I think A, you needed to pick someone who would be good on a show.

[09:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But B, I feel like you also.

[09:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Had to pick someone who could take it.

[09:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[09:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And how do you know? I just think that's interesting, like, how they landed on him specifically, and they picked right? I know. So all of the actors were just shocked at how kind he was at times and how helpful and nice and stepping up and doing things he didn't want to do. He didn't want to be the four person he knew that no one else. So he did. It was just, I think, really interesting and maybe what you're alluding to in a messed up way, but how Ronald was put in this environment and then manipulated and rose to the occasion as this amazing person and could it also have gone a different way?

[10:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Totally. And they still would have aired it, right? Like, if it had come out that he was, like, a major *******, they still would have aired it. Right. And then it's like, Whoa, I don't know. It's a real life Truman Show. And I'm just like, Good call.

[10:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[10:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Real life Truman Show. And also potentially psychologically damaging. It totally messes with your view of reality and your safety. And I was reading somewhere, I heard on some podcast or something that he was kind of paranoid afterwards and kept calling the producer someone to be like, are you sure it's still seriously, is he okay? Ronald, if you're out there listening, send an SOS. Send me a Morse code signal. Like, Are you okay? Do you need some help? I hope he's processing this. I'm really worried for him. I know. What if he had some trauma history or something that this reactivated? Did they screen for that and rule that out? Or was it just a random Craigslist ad they picked for?

[11:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I, you know, certainly didn't think about it to this degree. And I'm glad that we are now talking about it because yeah, of course you're paranoid after everyone was lying to you. Literally everyone.

[11:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I feel like they tried to wrap it up by showing pictures of them hanging out after the fact, but then it's like, does he trust that they're friends or is it still going on? I feel like in the wrong hands, he could have had a psychotic break or something.

[12:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[12:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because your version of reality is not what's actually happening to you. That's, like, super messed up. Or he could have gotten really angry, or he might sue them. Maybe he will still I don't know.

[12:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. These are excellent questions.

[12:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I'm just ronald, if you're listening, we'd love to have you on the show and ask you all these questions. And also, I hope you're okay.

[12:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And now that I'm thinking about sorry.

[12:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: To be such a dark cloud.

[12:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'm just, like, really worried about yeah, that interestingly. Did not cross my mind.

[12:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe because you didn't know it was him the whole time. Yeah, that's a good point. Some distance. Whereas I'm watching, like, oh, my God. He's really forming what he thinks are, like, genuine connections. He is, like, a really nice person. He's really trying to figure out the case.

[13:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's really trying to figure out that they said in that last episode, because they said that they had to come up with so many things so quickly based on his questions and being an interest in being like, well, this doesn't make sense.

[13:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? He's taking the job of juror super seriously. Which it's like, you hope people do, but then you're kind of surprised people do, especially with a case like this.

[13:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Now that you're saying this, I have a good example of also feeling icky about the manipulation. So when in the last episode, they're showing him even the day one room when they're all sitting there and they go say, we left four seats open, so we had four opportunities and rehearsed four scenarios of where you would go first. And that's weird. That makes weird.

[13:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: It all makes you feel weird. Exactly. It was so thoughtful.

[13:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And they were getting calculated at Margaritaville, right? If he drank, they could all have one. And then it was all fake and.

[14:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: They all wanted know you're the four person. You gotta get it first. Yeah. It's just weird power of I mean.

[14:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This is like think, right?

[14:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's great.

[14:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Think.

[14:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: It reminds me this is so different. But do you remember learning about this Stanford Prison Experiment? So if you haven't heard about this awful experiment, this is one reason we have institutional review boards and stuff like that, to make sure scientific experiments are ethical, that people don't get hurt psychologically or physically, all of it. So, like, in the Stanford Prison Experiment, I think it was like, college kids or medical students or someone who needed a $100 or something to participate in this experiment where half of the people were prisoners and the other half were guards. And then they just sort of put them in this environment that looked like a prison and watched what happened. And it was atrocious the things that people ended up doing with the guards being in positions of power. There was awful. Look up the details if you want, but it reminded me of that. Again, not like, luckily no one was getting hurt, I guess, physically in the same way, but really displayed the power of psychology. And I'm just worried for Ronald. I don't know.

[15:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was not expecting this episode to go in this direction. It should it's a necessary again, it's.

[15:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Probably legal, but was it the right thing to do ethically? I mean, like, everyone's thrilled. Again, it's funny. It's funny to watch. They got Emmy nominations. I feel like Ronald should have gotten one.

[15:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think so. I think that would have sweetened the deal. Right. And I think they should all be still his friend, but to help heal him, almost.

[15:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: But now he has to get to know them for who they really are, not who they're pretending to be.

[15:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Nikki called Vanessa her real name, right? It was like Catherine or Cassandra or something like that. And then they had to do this whole thing where she then later said it called the stenographer or something like that, or the other. Right.

[16:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: They had to fix it.

[16:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[16:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because there was some who's cassandra. Yeah. So, again and the fact that then they take it to that level to keep up the charade, like, okay, but what's the cost to this poor guy? And why did he want to do it in the first place? Was he in a vulnerable position for some reason? Were they offering some sort of monetary compensation to be in this documentary or not? I have so many questions.

[16:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And no outright like zero contact with any outside I mean, which I get why? But from A, a jury in real life standpoint, b, the show him needing to be isolated, and then C, though I know no reality.

[17:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. So it's like, I feel like they couldn't have picked someone who had children. Maybe they could have. Were they considering people with children or partners?

[17:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I would have to say no.

[17:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. How deep does this go? How nefarious is this? But yeah, when you think about it, it's like he was kidnapped. Yes. Or held hostage against his will.

[17:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And someone came up with a number. Right. It wasn't $50,000. It wasn't $200,000. How did you land on 100? And is that, like, illegal? Right. Was there some back room meetings about.

[17:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, this is does he get residual?

[17:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[17:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: He should. How did you decide that taking him away from his life for that long was worth that much versus something else?

[17:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[17:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Does he agree? Again, it was just like that final episode where they're like, ha, we're all high fiving. Like, we did it. And he's just sitting there, like, totally shocked. It's like, what has he spoken out at all? I think all that I've seen is when he was saying or someone was saying that he said that he was messed up for at least a little bit of time and calling and asking, is this over? You have to tell me it's over.

[18:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

[18:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm just like, did no one anticipate that this would be psychologically troubling.

[18:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To say the it's he currently still.

[18:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Works at his regular job.

[18:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's a project manager at Home Depot. Per his LinkedIn profile and said, even to this day, I haven't really changed my life, because I didn't know, quote, jury duty was even going to be anything. So I've kept my day.

[18:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, I really want to reach out to him. We'll see if we can get him on the podcast. Yeah, that'd be really cool.

[18:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's still friends with James Per. His social media account, New Famous Friends, including it's it's it's interesting to think about like, of course there's two sides of the coin and of course there were some absolute clear benefits to this. But did he want any of Ryan Reynolds?

[19:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is that enough that he's his friend?

[19:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Does that compensate for what happened?

[19:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Ryan Reynolds isn't his friend for who Ronald really is he's his friend because he was on this show and it was funny. But it's like, does he feel like we're all laughing at him and not with him? I just have so many questions.

[19:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think though, if I was Ronald, I think there's been a lot of commentary, which I just literally said as well, of like, how could you not know, right? It's like, so some of the stuff that happened was so ridiculous, but so.

[19:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is life, of course. That's my question.

[19:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Is any of that feedback getting to him? Does he feel stupid? We're laughing at him or with him? I don't know. That's a good question.

[20:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or and even how were there points along the way where he had a gut feeling something was up and then he didn't listen to it and now that really messes with your sense of your intuition or it can really have really long lasting effects that I don't think the creators and all these people really thought about. I think we're probably thinking about it because we're in mental health field. I'm just a little concerned for him.

[20:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, there's all these extreme characters, right? So we have Todd who's like, socially awkward.

[20:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: The chair piano brings all of these.

[20:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Absurd inventions to court. I mean, the scene where he is trying to sit down in the jury box and first of all, how do they not break face? It is wild. I cannot imagine being in the control room because I'd be like, don't break free. This is like the most amazing scene.

[20:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. But then also, it was so nice because he's like, there's never enough chairs for anyone, so I brought my own. That's really nice. And Ronald was so encouraging of his weird invention.

[21:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And he was like, we sometimes take a risk and it doesn't go well. He's so nice, such a good guy. There's Tod, then there's Ken, who had to talk really slow, had to talk with an accent, who manages two gumball machines. I mean, like, again, so ridiculous.

[21:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he clearly has a gambling know, which is really interesting to see. And he's like making up the rules of this weird. Then but then Ronald's like, no, no, man, you don't have to pay me. It's totally fine. He's just, like, so nice, and then I'm like, Is he in on it? Is Ronald really not?

[21:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He maybe that's the big twist, and.

[21:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't maybe, like, we're all falling for it, right? When you're thinking of groupthink, or, like, are we all falling for, like, is he in on it in some way? Unclear.

[21:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So if you don't know, groupthink is this phenomenon that happens when you are in a group of people and you kind of end up thinking or believing something that you probably wouldn't have without being in the group. So it's just like the impact of others on what we do, what we say, what we think. And we see that in the Stanford Prison Experiment. We see that in even in groups.

[22:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like a therapy group or, like, Taylor Swift fans, maybe. Yep, yep.

[22:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's just this phenomenon when a group of people get together, like, what can happen with the power of just.

[22:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, I think we see that just like, normal development with teenage peer pressure, stuff like that, and it really can mess with you when it's taken to the extreme, like something like this.

[22:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So what I thought was interesting too, is that the judge, the Judge Rosen and Trevor's lawyer are real lawyers.

[22:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think the judge was an actor and then became a lawyer later.

[23:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: In The Other Guy. But they both were real attorneys who had histories so great, and they just did it so well. And I know that the defendant's lawyer was laughing because they were, like, begging him to do it. Because they were like there's literally, like, no one you are the only person.

[23:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: With this unique experience who could straddle the fence. I loved that lawyer so much, and when he tried to show that video, that was like, that would be like if I had to make a video. But it was just like I died every time I watched it. It was so funny.

[23:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But again and I think if there was one other singular person on the jury who was questioning things too, I think Ronald would have been like, this is ridiculous. Yeah. But I think because no one else was kind of swept up and because, again, the whole thing was so absurd, so ridiculous, such a sham, such, like, the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life. But it was so normal for everyone else.

[24:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hundreds.

[24:06] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it had to be normal for Ronald.

[24:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Exactly. And that's where I think I hope Ronald's okay. Because when you're in an environment like that and you start to not listen to your own inner voice, that's dangerous. That's how people get sucked into colds.

[24:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'd like to follow up with Ronald in, like, ten years and hopes and prayers for him. I don't know, I feel like this could change the trajectory of your life.

[24:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not a good way. Yeah, I feel like everyone's like, oh, this is great. Here's $100,000, by the way. They're going to take out a bunch of taxes from that. And then now you're friends with these famous people. Okay. Like, Ryan Reynolds isn't, like, inviting him over for Thanksgiving, okay?

[24:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[24:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, James Marsden, maybe they text here and there, but I'm not sure that James and him are like vacationing or I'm not sure Ronald's going to break into Hollywood or what is his real life like?

[25:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the fact I and we watch a lot of TV, right, and movies.

[25:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, because we are like podcasts.

[25:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I was laughing because just thinking about all of these actors now, having read this article where it says what else they've been in, I'm like, oh, I recognize a lot of them. So I really the woman who played inez she's in Teen Wolf, she's in a lot of shows. The guy who played who was Up Ross, he was in Parks, and, like.

[25:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: He was in a ton of stuff. And I think didn't they say Ronald was a Parks and Rec fan or there was something where Ronald was a fan of something that I think one of the producers or writers had done. So they got nervous that he was going to pick up on it. I thought they purposely picked people you wouldn't be able to recognize was in.

[25:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: A bunch of stuff. So he's the guy who tried to get off having his C four and C three in his lower back instead of where it really is, which I just thought was hilarious. And he's in a lot in the article. He's, like, the most recognizable under James Marsden.

[26:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's so interesting. But yeah, I mean, all it would have taken was for Ronald to have been able to pick any of them. I'm I'm fascinated by the casting. How did they pick like, they must have done at least some preliminary, hopefully background checks, psychological assessment to guarantee he was okay to do this.

[26:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, Ronald took one for the team for James with the ****.

[26:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[26:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then they showed them how it was all fake, and it was just wild. And so Jeannie and thought, you know, were an interesting character. Just know, Noah seems really he's he's clearly being manipulated. Obviously it's acting, but he's being manipulated by Jeannie about questioning his girlfriend. It seems they never said it, but it appears that Noah is a part of the Church of Latter day Saints based on his section when he said, we've never been able to be alone. That's why this vacation was really important. And then the soaking, which is something that people do to kind of get around the fact that you're not allowed to have sex, so they'll have someone else, like, kind of moving the bed. Right. Jumping on the bed.

[27:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: I didn't realize that was a real thing.

[27:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It is.

[27:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: How did you know that?

[27:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I feel like I've known that forever, but from online, like, it's a thing.

[27:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: So, Portia, let me get this straight. You knew about soaking being a real thing forever, but you missed that Ronald was the real person in this show? I just want to get that straight. That's why we're a good team. Yeah. We each bring something.

[27:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[29:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which is so strange in my opinion, to me, based on my upbringing. I don't know, I think it feels like, weirder because you're bringing this third person in that makes it feel less to me like, I don't know, religious, spiritual, whatever.

[29:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just between you and your partner. Exactly. So that feels like that's why I'm just fascinating to me too. Can you imagine these actors, like, reading this and James Mars and being like, oh, my God, I got to go jump on this bed. And then they said they filmed it because they were like, such a kick out of one point in the last episode when they said they had to pretend there was a COVID scare so they could all rehearse, but so he.

[29:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Would be kept in his room just.

[29:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like this poor guy. I think we have to talk a little bit about inez because I loved her, and I just loved how much she wanted to be the four person and ordering lunch and getting those menus and then getting it wrong. And it seemed like there was so many logistics that went into their lunch, ordering even like, behind the scenes, they.

[30:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Eat like, twice sometimes.

[30:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was so confused by that. But I wouldn't mind eating twice for work. But also, I think I'll make that sacrifice.

[30:16] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Such fun at jury duty. And we're constantly breaking you like you're eating more than you're listening to. And I think that's the people laugh about that. Like, jury duty are just like going for there's constantly breaks, and it's just.

[30:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, let's get this over with. The last time I went for jury duty, Portia, I had just had my first child. Well, actually, I got summoned for jury duty when I was like, eight months pregnant. It was my. First child, and I was so terrified that I was supposed to, I don't know, go, like, two months postpartum or something. I was so terrified that I was going to forget to tell them I couldn't go, or I was really nervous I was going to get arrested if I didn't show up for jury duty. So I remember it caused me a lot of angst. Okay. And then they eventually let me postpone it, like, six months. So then I go and I have.

[30:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: A newborn baby at home.

[31:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it was like, the greatest day ever because I was all by myself. It was quiet, they had free coffee. It wasn't good, but I had a break, I had space. No one was touching me. I remember feeling so fondly about jury duty that day that I didn't get picked was probably good, but I just had this lovely day all by myself in the quiet. I got to read a book, had free coffee. It was like, what did they ask you? I didn't even get asked.

[31:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You didn't get asked?

[31:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, I got dismissed. Like, I just spent a day there and it was like I was like.

[31:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think I've been summoned six times.

[31:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

[31:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like a joke in my friend. They really want you get summoned all the time. And I've never actually had to go, so I got summoned a bunch where I used to live, like, in that county, and then I moved to a new county where there's another court, and I've gotten summoned twice here, and once I was summoned and I delayed it because I was away. And then if you delay it, you automatically you're in a different pool where.

[32:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: You'Re like, you have to come now.

[32:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And so then I was really summoned, and I was freaking out because I'm in private practice. I think you can get out of it. But I was freaking out. So I called, and this woman was lovely on the phone and was like, okay, don't ever delay it again because you automatically will get called. And you oftentimes have to come in. But because of what you do, that's.

[32:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: What happened to me when I delayed it, because I was eight months pregnant. Then I had to go, yes.

[32:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so she was like, just call this number or whatever every time you get summoned and you'll get out of it. Just so that it's not like a waste of time for you or for them, because you're not. Going to get I feel like they.

[32:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Don'T like to pick therapists or psychiatrists exactly for that reason.

[32:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then I think they're not going to make you do that. If you're like the primary, if there's.

[33:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: All the that's what? I don't want to say this out loud because I don't want the jury duty powers of me to hear and be like, you have to serve Dr. Fury or else. But another time I know of a friend who got summoned and said that they were, like, the sole private practice person, and they treat X number of patients every week. And there's risk if you have to serve that these people are going to go without their mental health care, and then they got dismissed. I heard this about a friend. I'm just reporting someone not related to.

[33:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I just don't think that they would want a therapist.

[33:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think so. To analyze.

[33:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And also, I think specifically for being a psychiatrist, I would say without intention. I feel like you're powerful, right. You're like a dear doctor. You have influence on people, and I think that that's something that they would be aware of with you deliberating with this group of your peers, so to speak. I feel like in some ways, there is a power dynamic there of people's perceptions of doctors and then mental health. I don't know. I think that feels specific to being a doctor. Of course they're not going to have a lawyer on the jury duty, but it's interesting.

[34:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: But so it is interesting. And I thought this show also made me think about the jury selection process.

[34:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Available for jury duty and who the.

[34:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: People who are picking the jury are doing it intentionally.

[34:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[34:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's not random, and it isn't always like they cut people out for reasons, and then you're like, well, so is that fair?

[34:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, because it's really not of your peers. It's of, like, a specific group of people that the defense and the prosecution believes will benefit them 100%.

[34:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And it's like, is that really what the spirit of jury duty was unclear?

[34:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It is.

[34:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: So, I mean, as we start wrapping up, this show really makes you think about who would have thought about some really major topics. I think a lot of ethical questions come from know, like, the ethics of poor Ronald and the ethics of jury selection and the whole shebang.

[35:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And I think that's our know, if we didn't title our episodes with just the name, I think it would be like or maybe we should with this one, the Ethics of Jury Duty. Like the show, because the show versus the real thing. And I'm sure, of course, there's something out there already, but I think this is just also, like, a unique perspective besides just all the ha ha's or, like, the love people love know, and good for him.

[35:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: He deserves.

[35:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But, like, I just think it's is.

[35:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: He ronald, please, please reach out. You can find us on Instagram at Analyze, scripts or TikTok. Analyze scripts. Podcast. Ronald, like, please reach out. Let us know you're okay.

[35:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[35:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: We'd also just love to talk to you.

[35:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. What was your experience like? Space. And we are real, and we are not.

[35:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. No.

[35:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[35:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Poor Ronald. I hope he's okay.

[36:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, thank you for listening to this really interesting, I think, episode of I almost said of jury duty of our podcast analyze scripts. Be sure to rate, review and subscribe, please. We appreciate all the streams and of course, the subscribers, and please interact with us. We'd love to hear your thoughts. What do you think? Do you think after listening to this episode there's some ethical considerations wrong?

[36:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: How would you feel? If you like, if you were Ronald.

[36:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: How would you feel? We'd love to hear from you. So thanks and we'll see you next Monday.

[36:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Bye.

[36:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with.

[36:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine.

[36:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are analyzing season one of "The Morning Show" on AppleTV+. This series stars an all-star cast including Jennifer Aniston, Reese Witherspoon, Steve Carell, Billy Crudup, Karen Pittman, Gugu Mbatha-Raw, and Mark Duplass, to name just a few. We examine this season's expert and thoughtful portrayl of sexual harassment and assault in the workplace by comparing and contrasting the complex power dynamics between Mitch and Hannah, Mitch and Alex, Mia and Mitch, and Yanko and Claire. We discuss that the "freeze" response is one of the most common reactions to trauma, and analyze how this may contribute to shame, guilt, and confusion experienced by victims (as well as broaded misunderstanding about sexual harrassment and assault). We also explore depictions of narcissistic personality traits (once again! seems like Americans can't get enough!), substance abuse, and grief. We really enjoyed this drama and hope you enjoy this episode!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. We get started. We just wanted to include a trigger warning for this episode. This episode could include discussion about some themes and topics that might be upsetting, including, but not limited to things like substance abuse, suicide, self harm, disordered, eating, and harassment and assault. So if any of those topics are too upsetting, we totally get it. Please feel free to skip this episode and join us next week. Otherwise, we hope you enjoy.

[01:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Welcome back to another episode of Analyzed Grip.

[01:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Woohoo.

[01:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We're really excited to be talking about The Morning Show, season one for this episode. I feel a little late to the game as this came out in November of 2019, and I'm just discovering it and it was phenomenal.

[01:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: It is phenomenal. It really is.

[01:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did you watch it earlier?

[01:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: I watched it earlier, but only like, last year. I wasn't watching it in real time, but I did watch it. I feel like the three COVID years are kind of a blur, but I remember watching it and doing a puzzle and so I think that must have.

[02:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Been during COVID Yeah, there were a lot of puzzles. I don't know if that's a trauma memory memory in a long time.

[02:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think it's just like, I can't that makes sense. But no, I mean, the Morning Show is such a good show, so we're excited to be covering seasons one and two ahead of the release of season three this fall. And of course, we'll be covering that as well, like, in real time. But gosh, what an all star cast. One thing I love about it is that a lot of the main know jennifer Aniston, Reese Witherspoon, Steve Carell are like, known comedic actors.

[02:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Lighthearted.

[02:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, sure, they've all done some serious stuff here and there, but like, man, they all really pack a punch. And they're so good. And I love seeing them in these bigger, grittier, more complicated roles. I love seeing Jennifer aniston like this.

[03:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was shocked. We were talking a little bit about this before we started recording, and I have no idea how I was sleeping on the show. I think we kind of said it's like Apple's probably, unfortunately, like one of the last streaming services people think of.

[03:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it's like you get like Netflix, right? And then you probably get Hulu and.

[03:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Then you're like, do I really want.

[03:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: To pay for Apple or not? By the way, Apple, if you want to sponsor us, feel free. We love you. We're both paying. You know we love it.

[03:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The morning show.

[03:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: They have a new beanie baby movie out. Yes.

[03:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: With Sarah Snook. Yes.

[03:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Zach Gallifinakis, which I read the book it's based on. Because obviously yes. I feel like that would be a fun one for us to cover. They have really good content. But I think you're right, Ted Lasso. But I think it's just not quite as popular for some reason. So maybe that's why. Did you have Apple back in 2019? No, probably not. It's just fabulous.

[04:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I have not seen season two yet. I cut it off. I had to restrain my arm from hitting next because I was going to not sleep this week watching season two. And I was like, slow down. You don't need to watch it yet. But I'm like at the edge of my seat. What happened?

[04:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And I think when we started this podcast, Portia, we had some major shows in mind that we wanted to cover. You obviously. The morning show, obviously. White Lotus obviously. And then there's a couple more like, Devil in Ohio and Tell Me Lies, which we want to cover at some point. But I feel like we're getting close to the end of shows. I have to rewatch for the podcast, which I'm appreciating. So I have seen seasons one and two, but it is still so fascinating to rewatch. Like, even though I know what's coming, I miss little details the first time around. Like the button under the desk that shuts the like, somehow I missed that the first time I watched it. And even knowing the ending, like with Hannah rewatching, it is just really interesting to then see how do they portray that character's evolution. And I always wonder, do the actors know the ending when they get started filming, or do they not? And I bet it's different by show.

[05:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it depends. And it's so funny that you said that because I just saw this morning that Sarah Snook read, like, the week of them filming the last episode. That tom wamscams. Spoiler alert for succession. Season four, pause becomes the succession. I read that, too.

[05:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: I read that she was shocked and.

[05:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was just like, wow, she didn't know. I think they want some of that to be organic right. In their emotions of like right.

[05:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: And also so fascinating.

[05:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[05:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because then it's like she has portrayed this character all along, not knowing that's going to be the outcome. And that probably does influence how they portray the character. Right. It's so fascinating. Someday when our podcast is really big, I so hope we get to talk to the writers and stuff and just pick their brains, analyze them analyzing their work, and just make everyone uncomfortable by being super analyze.

[06:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. How did you get this so right?

[06:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Tell me about your childhood.

[06:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Tell me about your mother. But we see Alex as a mother, as a partner at home, and she seems would you like to take it from here? As.

[06:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, Jennifer Aniston in a role like, as I was thinking about getting ready to record this episode. I was like, I feel like I think I know who Jennifer Aniston is, but I don't, obviously, right? But she is, like, America's sweetheart. I think we all think of her as doing yoga and drinking a green shake, but being really nice and like a girl's girl and having some dogs that she takes really good care of, right? And just like, an all around good person, right? Doesn't cheat on her taxes, eats healthy. I have no idea if that's true. What if this is her? Right? We don't know.

[07:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know, but I just say that.

[07:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because this was such a different role for her and she did a really good job, and I loved watching it a second time. And as we get toward the end, still wondering, is any of this genuine or is she just like a huge, raging narcissist, like, clinically a narcissist? What were your thoughts?

[07:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think I was back and forth. And as we often wonder, was that intentional? Was it intentional in writing or did she her acting just kind of come up with that organically? Because I think back and forth, I really was rooting for her or felt sorry for her. And then the next moment, I was furious with her. The next moment I was like, you're terrible. So I don't know. I think where I left off at the end of season one, I was really proud of her. It seemed like she finally pulled the wool from her eyes, which maybe she put there intentionally or not. I think that was the question. And decided to maybe get fired. I don't know if she also, though, right, sensed the sinking ship and decided to be on, quote unquote, the right side.

[08:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know exactly. I don't know either. And I think that's fascinating and probably exactly where we're supposed to end up. And Jennifer Aniston did such a stellar job in this role and all the writers and everyone in sort of crafting her character, right? So to sort of back up, if you haven't watched season one of the morning show, first of all, go watch it. Second of all, the main plot is know there's these two news anchors on the major morning show in New York City. Mitch Kessler, played by Steve Carell, and Alex Levy, played by Jennifer Aniston. And the show starts with Mitch, Steve Carell's character, getting fired for sexual misconduct. And it's set in the era of MeToo, I believe. It started going into production in 2017. It was released in 2019 all around the time when the MeToo movement was really catching ground. On Twitter, on Instagram social media with actors and actresses, like, really coming forward about Harvey Weinstein, but then other major heavy hitters in Hollywood. We both did want to just make note that the MeToo movement and Hashtag had been around for far longer than that, about nine years ahead of that. Tarana Burke had started using it on her own social media back then, MySpace in 2006, to talk about her experiences as a sexual assault survivor and to really start pushing forward, like, congressional legislation and other sort of political and activist movements. And then it really took off when Alyssa Milano and other actors and actresses were using it. So that's like the setting where this is all created and interestingly right around the time Matt Lauer got fired for sexual misconduct, right? And I kept wondering, like, is this Matt Lauer or is it not?

[10:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And, like, you know, I think the producers and writers or the showrunner had to deny it on record, but I think there's a lot of speculation that it's that whether or not there was specifics or, like, that's the general sense of what happened. And I think what I really actually liked about their depiction of the morning show is that they were covering all of the real Weinstein was there was that episode where Alex is watching a segment on him, and she's like, oh, what a pig, right? And then the fires, Malibu, like, all of that, and then the hired firefighters, all of those things were actually happening in real time. And I loved that component because it felt so real and sometimes not like I was watching a show. I was actually watching a morning show.

[11:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[11:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so I think some of that makes me think it is kind of based I feel like mean, we have.

[11:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: No idea, so Matt Lauer, please don't sue us. This is all alleged, but it seems like I mean, I think we were reading some article this morning that the button in the dressing room is a thing that he had, like, how sick? How sick?

[11:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That gave me full body chills. And I can't remember who it was.

[11:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Mia.

[11:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Mia who went in there, and she pushed the button and the door slammed, and I was it just it really.

[11:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Does send a chill down your spine. So, like we've talked about before, sexual misconduct, sexual assault. Sexual harassment is unfortunately incredibly common. The World Health Organization estimates that the prevalence of sexual violence affects a third of all women. Insane. Like, it's like insane because I'm not surprised, but it's also insane that it affects so many of us just walking around and it's just so normal, right? And I think when stuff like that is normalized and this is worldwide this isn't just in American culture, but worldwide when it is normalized, it's hard to discern if what you're experiencing and those inner icky feelings are because of that behavior or because of your own quote unquote sensitivity or overreaction. We have a tendency to say about women. And so much of this stuff is not overtly out there until it is.

[13:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[13:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But there's usually, like, a long progression we see that depicted in this show.

[13:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And there were some I read a couple of articles and comments that were unhappy about that. There was some criticism on some of the grayness that the morning show took with kind of how it landed. And I think from my perspective, as someone who works with people who have experienced this, I'm torn, because on the one hand, it's like I think they did a really good job of showing the grayness. That makes it so hard for someone who experienced it to delineate, like, wait, did that really happen? And was it really sexual assault or not know? And then people around you also being kind of, like, confused or but because I think they wanted it to be.

[13:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really black and white, especially with Hannah.

[13:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: With Hannah. And I think, like, it was intentionally not her getting dragged into a bush by Mitch and she screamed because, again, as we talked about in earlier episodes, that's not common. That's actually more rare. It does absolutely happen. But I think they kind of hit the nail on the head.

[14:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: This is what happened. Right.

[14:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. I appreciated it, but I could also understand some of the criticism, just wanting.

[14:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: To really be what's the criticism exactly?

[14:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Kind of going back and forth right. With Hannah, quote, unquote, making the decision while after it was initiated without her consent to kind of go with it, as she says. She says that in the interview with Bradley that she kind of just decided to do it after obviously being distressed and not I think that they wanted it to be more clear so people who don't understand it would right.

[15:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was just thinking that's such a good point, because I think in that scene so what we're referring to is this is near the end of season one, right? We see. So, like, Mitch gets fired and then he's all angry that these are all consensual affairs. How could anyone accuse me of these awful things? And we see he's out on a quest to clear his then, you know, there's this chance that now Alex might be fired. She's getting older. People are bored of her. There's all this backstabbing and stress going on in the network with the higher ups and all the businessy things. And then we see her spring on everyone that she's decided that Bradley Jackson, this new nobody from Nowhere, is going to be the new Morning Show co host. Right. And then Bradley Jackson is this truth teller, and basically, eventually it comes that Bradley wants to uncover the truth of who at the network knew who was covering it up. And that's all really interesting, and we'll get into it. But near the know, there was this thought that maybe Bradley would interview know they'd already interviewed one of his other victims. Maybe they'd interview Mitch for ratings and all this stuff. And everyone had a different goal with that interview. And as they're getting to that, we see what happened between Mitch and Hannah unfold. And until then, Hannah was just this sort of background character, and then all of a sudden, we really see that she was another one of his victims. And so I thought the depiction of this perfectly displayed the power differential between the white male head anchor and the black younger female. I don't even know what she was. She was like a booker, a junior booker. Right. So she's, like, fresh on the scene. He liked her. Right. So then asked that she be brought out to Las Vegas to cover that shooting. Again, another real event that happened.

[17:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He complimented her before that, like, in front of and, you know, so that made her feel really good, really special. And there was know, I think keep going.

[17:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'll say this later, but again, just a compliment. Not about her appearance, not about what she was wearing, just, like, about her work. Right. But it's like it's already starting. It's already starting. He knows what he's doing. That's exactly what it is. It's grooming. He asked for Mia to be taken off because that was who he'd had an affair with leading up to that. Mia had recently broken it off. Mia is also black, but she's older. She's been around longer. So there's still a power difference, right. And a racial difference, but different from Hannah. I thought that was really interesting, that they kind of show both of those piggybacked, and then we see him just take advantage of Hannah, who is clearly struggling with covering this awful trauma. So Hannah's already traumatized, right. Who's not, like, covering a mass shooting. Right? She's, like, vicariously traumatized, sort of coping with that. And he sort of is showing interest in her and things unfold.

[18:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[18:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: I can't remember the exact sequence of events, but it was like they bumped into each other. They were walking around. Maybe they got a drink. She's sad. She's sad.

[18:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's giving her some advice.

[18:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? She's thinking of him as, like, a mentor. She's young. Of course you want to be mentored by the head honcho. And then he invites her up to his hotel room, and that's where I think you're like, Why did you go?

[18:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But again, it's like and he's this right?

[18:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Dad fatherly figure. He's like America's, dad. And they say that a couple of.

[18:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Times, which I think is, for me, so important, because, again, it demonstrates, like, he's not, I guess, to the outside world. And Hannah, like, creepy, right? So it's, you know, he's jolly, he's kind, and, you know, he invites her.

[19:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Up to watch a movie that he likes to watch when he's feeling like, okay, you know, I could see how you might go again. I feel like I could see why you shouldn't go. Right? But I could also see how Hannah, not being in her most stable state of mind, could feel like, this was nice. She's so upset, she's so traumatized. This well seasoned, successful person who's recently complimented her work, asked her to be here, is showing interest in her and comforting her. You also don't get Icky vibes. Full on no. Until they're there and until it gets to that point. But then she's being traumatized again. Right. And we often think about, like, when trauma is happening, that fight or flight response, but included in that is the freeze response, right. Where you kind of play dead, right? And you see this in Animals in the Wild, too. And I think that's what happened.

[20:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I was, like, playing dead. And I'm sure there's maybe a research article on this that it would be helpful to have, but in my experience, freezing is the most common response.

[20:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Most common sexual 100%, it is. And what's really confusing, I think, for survivors of sexual assault like this is that psychologically, you're freezing. But biologically, in terms of arousal and things like that, that will biologically happen whether you necessarily want it to or not. And so that's where it gets really confusing, at least in my work with survivors of things like this, right. Because they might have biological reactions that you might have if you're having consensual sex.

[20:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then the shame, right? Super shame. How could I have reacted in that.

[21:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Way if I didn't want it? And it's like because it's biological, you can't control it. Just like you can't control when you're going through something traumatic. If you fight flight or freeze, you can't always control it. You're being traumatized. It's like your body's most primitive way of protecting itself. Right. So I just feel like you can't blame her. You can't blame her.

[21:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[21:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: She may have felt like who knows, right? That's just what happened. She was traumatized. I found that really hard to watch.

[21:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That whole episode, really, I think, was so imperative to the season, because up until then, I think it wasn't clear if it was just abuses of power with Mitch. And it was, I'd say, besides the abuse of power and power dynamics and stuff like that, like consensual, where everyone's an adult here, but just affairs, right?

[22:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: And up until that point, they had showed, like, Mitch relating to ****, played by Martin Short, in a way of being like, all these women are so sensitive these days, you can't even compliment a woman anymore, right? But then as they're talking at his house when he's trying to pitch, let's make a documentary where we get interviewed and tell our side of the story. And then he realizes, like, oh, this guy's like, legit a pedophile. He doesn't see there's anything wrong.

[22:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And he's like, Well, I'm not like, or like you're this, and I'm like, it's so interesting that he right. He separates himself from ****.

[22:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, yes, I think it's fascinating that he still thinks he's special or different. He's not that bad of a predator. He can't see his own action. He's not appreciating what he actually did.

[22:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But then he's so good at manipulating Hannah later on that I'm like, you do know that's what I mean.

[23:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. And it's like, he knew what he was doing. She doesn't have to say, like, no or stop. Even though she tries, he keeps going. Right. So it's like, at what point is it on? Why does a woman or whoever's being victimized have to keep screaming no from the rooftops? And why aren't you held accountable to just know that this is wrong. You should know.

[23:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She says, I wasn't expecting this when I came up here. And, okay, so maybe pull back and be like, okay, well, what were you expecting? And then just talking. Okay, now we're just going to talk, of course, what he was doing. And then he says to her right, to get her to talk. That whole part was so sick, so horrible to watch. Like, well, you manipulated me to get the job. You used me. Well, this is going to come out.

[24:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, whether you wanted to or not.

[24:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, again, that's another trauma and abuse of power and not consent. What did you think about Bradley's interview? Her conversations with Hannah kind of at that part.

[24:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: So Bradley Jackson as a character, I find I have mixed reactions to, like, on the one hand, I love Reese Witherspoon, and I think she's a great actress. Some parts of Bradley I felt like were a little too try hard, if that makes sense. Like, yeah, she's a truth teller, great. But some of it was, like, a little too much for me. I thought her backstory was really compelling, like, about her dad and how he had apparently killed a child by drunk driving, and she had been the one to turn him in. And then her own brother's struggling with addiction and how she seems to be bearing the responsibility of that, both financial and emotionally, and her mom is kind of struggling to put it lightly. I found all of that really interesting. I believe we see more of that in season two, so I'm excited to revisit that. But in general, I felt like when Bradley was interviewing both the initial victim, they had come back on the air. And then Hannah, some of the things she was saying I thought were good things to say, like, kind of like therapist things to say, know, echoing back, like, oh, I hear you're saying this. That's hard. No, it's okay to cry. Take your time. Let me get you a tissue. She was very humanistic and relatable and could say things like that. When we got to this stuff with Hannah, I was just like it made me so uncomfortable because we already know at this point that Hannah is, like, uber traumatized. We see that she's abusing drugs. I think in Vegas. That was when she had offered to her coworker, like, we're going to be up for the next 36 hours.

[26:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Do you want Adderall California fire thing.

[26:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or that was in the fire. There was something earlier on where, you know, she has Adderall. She seems to be abusing it. Who knows what Hannah's backstory is? I wouldn't be surprised if there had been earlier traumas in her life or something like that. And then we see that she's not kind of she's been super triggered by this whole thing with Mitch and all this stuff coming out. And I feel like him just showing up at the morning show that day and talking to everyone and everyone's listening, but also looks really scared. I was so afraid he was going to pull out a like, I was just like, oh, my God, this is like a bad situation. Disgruntled, powerful man just, like, showing up. I was really worried. And then with Hannah in that interview with Bradley, I feel like I'm going off on a tangent, but it just felt like people kept re traumatizing her by pushing her or insisting she do things or like, forcing it on. Like, it starts with Mitch again. And it ****** me off. I was like, you've already forced yourself on this poor girl. You're doing it again. You are so manipulative and it's disgusting and you're just twisting it all around, unannounced, unwanted. It's just like, you are retraumatizing her. But then for Bradley and everyone else to push her to go along with.

[27:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It, they're doing it too. I was so angry at Bradley because you could see that she was aware, because she was like there was some hesitation or there was some know, when Hannah kind of finally, quote unquote, loses it and goes on that monologue of what happened and how she's feeling, Bradley's like, Whoa. And it's are and then she kind of walks back and it's like, well, we don't need to do this. You're clearly upset. And it's like, but you made her feel this. Like you forced her to do the moral thing, which I think oftentimes is something that we do put on victims of, like, right, well, it's the right thing to do to press charges or like, you don't want this to happen to someone else. It's not your responsibility.

[28:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: 100%. And I think it's so important that we keep pushing that message out there that when you are the victim of something traumatic or like an assault or something like that, you get to decide what you do next. Right? And it is so retraumatizing to tell victims, like, well, you have to report it. You have to do this. Because, again, the whole trauma was forced on them, something they don't want, they didn't consent to it's so intrusive and now you're, like, doing it again. Right. And I think loved ones, family members, society can be well meaning in wanting. I can see how people around you might want to support you by helping you step into your power and get retribution and stuff like that, but it's on that person it happened to to decide what is best for them.

[29:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

[29:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because, like we've talked about, the system isn't super welcoming to victims and just believes you right. That whole thing can be really traumatizing too. And again, it's like, Bradley, this whole time is like, I just want the like, I just want the truth. But then I feel like we saw her selfishness and own thirst for power there, and it was, you know, and it's like, Hannah doesn't want this. Like, she I'll tell, I'll do whatever you want. Just leave me alone and don't use my name. And again, it's like she feels, like, coerced to do that. She doesn't want to, but then they all just keep pushing her, pushing her, pushing her, and the network reaching out.

[29:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And offering her this job.

[29:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, it's, like, so sick. But this stuff happens. It happens. And then, sadly, we see that eventually she dies. And it's unclear. Was it an accidental overdose? Was it intentional? What were your thoughts?

[30:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. I mean, it seemed like she was abusing Adderall. Of course, we don't know what she took, right. When she OD.

[30:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think Opiates is what I'm guessing, because there was, like, vomit and stuff like that, and it's so lethal.

[30:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. And maybe we know that we often see some mixing. Right. If you are using a stimulant to stay up, it's like, typically sometimes then you need a downer to go to bed or something like that. And those are when things get really dangerous. So it might have been in that way, accidental. Right. She was like, abusing Adderall and then needed to go to bed, and then she was anxious or upset, and then she was like, oh, I'll just take something to help me sleep, a sedative or something like that. And then that happened. I don't know. I mean, I think it could have easily been either one.

[30:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I feel like I'm leaning toward accidental just because I say that. Because she accepted the new job. She wanted to get out of there. So she seemed what we call in the field, like, future oriented. She had plans. However, all of this turmoil is going on. She is so retraumatized with no support.

[31:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And her friend Claire, right, they just had a fight.

[31:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: They just had a fight, a falling out where Hannah thought she was doing the right thing. She saw Claire with Yanko, who's the weatherman, and was, I think, concerned for her friend that the same thing was happening. So she went to HR, and we'll talk a little more about that whole portrayal. But so she's alone. She's abusing substances. Also, in those moments when. You're intoxicated or high or not in your sober mind, you can make decisions that you can make such a split second decision. Just be like, you know what? This is too much. I'm done. So it's so unclear. It's so unclear, but it is so sad and devastating. And it's like, that's what it like. That's what it took to finally get people to wake up, right?

[32:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That scene, you know, I thought was so well done with Bradley getting the phone call from Claire, right? So it's like the new guy, Malcolm, is, like, giving the speech, probably, you know, we're all family, even though everyone hates you. And then right? It's like then you don't hear anything. We're just hearing kind of the music. We're just seeing them mouthing. And then you see Bradley, like, walking up to the front, and then you see her turn, right? It's all kind of slow. And then she clearly says that Hannah has died and everyone falls apart. And it's just like I mean, the whole last episode was just like, I wanted more, like, of every scene, I wanted more shots. I wanted more.

[32:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Know. I know.

[32:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Chip, you know, beating up Mitch.

[32:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was, oh, finally. So Chip is like the producer or the showrunner, and he's played by Mark Duplass. And then we also have the other people in power are Fred, who's the president of UBA, played by Tom Irwin. And then we have Corey, who is the president of the news division of UDA, played by Billy CrudeUp. He was like, my favorite character in this scene.

[33:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He was so eccentric and quirky and I don't even know oh, my God.

[33:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: And midway through, when he was helping drunk Bradley get back to her room, and that episode ended with the elevators closing, I was like, no, is it going to happen to Bradley? And it didn't. It seems like he was, like, just made sure she was safe, slept on the couch. But it totally leaves you wondering, oh, my just again, I felt like I was sort of back in thinking about succession in terms of trying to figure out, like, okay, so who has all the power and who's trying to overthrow who? And again, we have this board of board people with all the power everyone's afraid of and, like, ratings and all these things.

[33:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: When Alex meets with that board, right, and they're expecting her to apologize, right. And she just kind of goes off on them and she's like, well, this isn't the apology you expected, was it? And it's like, it's all men, right?

[34:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, all white men. Yeah. So getting back to Alex, I'm curious to hear your thoughts about her.

[34:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So the scene with her and her daughter, I mean, obviously came later, but I think to me, helped me understand.

[34:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Her more, like who she authentically is.

[34:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It seems like she was a little emotionally and physically neglectful, unavailable to her family. It seems like she did, I guess, prioritize her career. That's how they felt. I thought it was interesting, her relationship with her husband. It seems like they were very clearly separated, but then would put on this show, A, in front of their daughter, and then B, also in front of.

[34:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like the public. Public, yeah, like when they were going to that awards ceremony and then her.

[34:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hosting the party, she definitely, I think, dismissed him a lot. I think she was more aware of that with him. I think that she thought that she was a great mom and really present and there in the fight. I think it was interesting how she was like, I've done this all for you.

[35:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not true.

[35:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was interesting.

[35:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she takes the pizza back. I thought this was a great portrayal of narcissistic personality disorder. I mean, I just thought it was.

[35:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So good that back on the daughter, I thought it was so funny when she mentioned therapy, she's like, oh, I can tell you.

[35:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: That I paid for. So if we zoom out, I think, like, classic narcissistic personality disorder. I think her husband accuses her of that at some point or points it out, but so we see. Alex is the center of her world, and she is famous and gets all this attention for being on the show. You can tell that her whole family unit of her husband and daughter serves her. She is the center. Her husband and daughter fall into place. They know how to play their roles, and they just do it no matter what. Right. And I thought we saw that really clearly when they were driving to that award show. And she's clearly upset about everything. But then her daughter starts to get really upset, and Alex, it just doesn't feel genuine that she cared. It's like, I feel like everyone in her life is there to serve her, even her daughter. And I just her daughter points that.

[36:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Out in the fight.

[36:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And then Alex can't take it as a narcissist would not be able to take it or be able to see and be accountable for their own behavior because that threatens their already fragile inner sense of self. So they have to flip the switch.

[36:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which she does in a really big way and comes back with. Right. Like, your head broke my body. I had to be stitched up after you didn't know that to say to your child.

[37:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she says, like, F you, I'm taking this pizza. You don't come back from that stuff. But I felt like that did give us insight into who she authentically. And do you think that because maybe.

[37:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was really clear to others, but not me. Was Alex assaulted by Mitch?

[37:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: I still think it's it's I don't think, like, are you talking about the scene where she's talking to Mitch or just overall?

[37:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That scene was the only reason I thought she wasn't right, because it seemed manipulative manipulating him. Or she could say that.

[37:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then all of this other stuff.

[37:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then in the last episode, there was some point where it did come up again, where in a way that really made me think that she was.

[38:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, I think she was certainly harassed. Like, we saw that in that throwback episode know, he's commenting on the other anchor's dress and her body and like, well, you'd look great in that dress, Alex. Because then she wouldn't be wearing blah, blah, blah. I think certainly that was going on. And maybe now that we're talking about it, it seems like that's another gray area. Right. You don't always have to be victim or perpetrator. She probably was a little bit of both, I think. So in she probably was a victim and turned the other know, do I think she was as victimized as Hannah? I don't know. But I would be surprised because she has more power than Hannah. But certainly could be. Yeah. I mean, she would be, like, almost like the ultimate this is gross. But putting myself in Mitch's mind, like the ultimate conquest for him because of her, like, if he could get her, then I don't know. What do you think?

[39:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I feel like it happened early on, 1012 years ago, and then she maybe forgot it kind of intentionally and then turned the blind eye to everything else. Or kind of told herself that it was more concerned. I don't know.

[39:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's actually really interesting to think about, because I think they talk about there were, like, two times maybe they allude to having sex, but it's not clear when that happened. What were the circumstances? Were they both co anchors then, or were they not? What was the power differential with them? Yeah, that's a great point.

[39:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And was it also just know, Mitch being like even just like maybe Alex was really down. Maybe she was having marital problems and he was just there. And they have this, like a that's something that I would like to know because I think it would help me frame her a little better. But I thought it was interesting, too, the shot of her daughter watching Bradley and Alex kind of doing that. I feel like that made the daughter feel more empathetic connected.

[40:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sorry for yeah, and I can't decide where I fall with that. At the end, was that Alex finally doing the right thing? Or was it her again, trying to just preserve her image? I feel like the pessimist in me thinks, like, a narcissist doesn't change their stripes. And I think she's just, like, trying to preserve her image at all costs. And this time it worked in her favor. You hate to say, but then there's another part of me that wants to believe in the good in people. I bet you believe in the good in people, Portia, because she was so.

[40:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Unwell at that mean again, they just learned this happened and all of this is going on behind the know. I think this whole thing was, like, changing her view on Mitch, and I think she know that back. And, like, she had this closeness with him. She couldn't see him in that way. She couldn't really believe it. And then this thing with Hannah was like, oh, my God.

[41:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Shattering.

[41:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, he know a horrible monster like Harvey Weinstein. Right. That was so quick for her to be like, oh, he's a pig. And it's like, no, Mitch is too.

[41:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[41:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I don't know, you see her walking around the set, she's just like she throws the water in that guy.

[41:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's all so, like, intense and organic.

[41:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think narcissists also can do things. It's not that they don't have a moral compass. They're just there the circle of their moral compass.

[41:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. That's a good point. Again, maybe it's not one or the other. Maybe it's both. Maybe it's the right thing, and it's serving her. So at that point, because it is serving her, it's easier to do. I mean, she's a compelling character, to say the least. And Jennifer Aniston does a remarkable job portraying her, which makes me a little worried. Like, I hope that's not who Jennifer Aniston.

[42:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't think it is.

[42:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: It can't be. Right.

[42:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I saw her talk Adam Sandler's like Kennedy Awards.

[42:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.

[42:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They've done so many movies together, and she just seems so funny and silly.

[42:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And down to earth.

[42:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Down to earth. And her and Drew Barrymore were just, like, laughing about who's more close with him. I don't know. I think she's I know.

[42:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't see her like that. You know, it's her acting skills. It's great. Yeah, good for her. She's so great.

[42:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So what we also wanted to talk about is kind of comparing Yanko and Claire, their relationship and Hannah.

[42:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So again, we see claire is I don't know what her role is, like intern or something, but she's, like, from a really rich family. It comes out. But she wants to be in the biz, and Yanko is the weatherman. I just love how much he loves the weather. That's how I feel about science sometimes. I just want to tell people things about fireworks and the electrons and everyone's face glazes over, but I think it's so cool. So I just love how much he loves the weather. But anyway, so they're like, in a consensual relationship, and it's like it seems so sweet and right. It doesn't feel icky. No, it doesn't.

[43:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: None of it does.

[43:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: None of it feels icky to me.

[43:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He seemed really kind of caught off guard and hesitant when we see the flashback of her kind of going up to him and complimenting him and then being really direct with a little bit more of a flirtation right. And him being like, whoa. And kind of walks away.

[43:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like he's probably not used to getting a lot of girls because he's just, like, so into the weather. Right. But there's a part of her that digs it. Right.

[44:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Tell me about I think he would have immediately then been like, oh, a compliment back, or something like that. And the fact that he didn't and was so caught off guard. I mean, again, if we're just based off the scenes that we see, it does feel consensual. She also seems really kind of comically in charge in the relationship. So I think it was a good highlight, too, of, like, there's also policies in the workplace for a reason, just because of a breakup. Again, like, you're two consenting adults, maybe even within the same role.

[44:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[44:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But it's still, like, workplace and things can sometimes end well or not go well. So that's why there's stuff in place. But it seemed overall not really impacted by dynamics. And maybe it did help that she was very wealthy and she doesn't need to be doing any of this, or.

[44:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: She'S not doing it to further her.

[44:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Career and have him fired.

[45:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: I loved when she said that, but it was just so interesting to watch their relationship unfold as this is happening, because they've been, like, dating in secret and stuff. And again, it's like when you first start dating someone, it's not that it's like, secret, secret, but you're not like, hey, guess what? All the time. Right? Right. So you could see why they want to take their time, really suss it out and feel it out. But you see them getting closer as all this is unfolding, and you see Yanko genuinely reflecting and being introspective and checking in with her. And that is why he's not a narcissist, why he's not icky like Mitch. Right. And then we see that eventually Hannah sees her going into his room with the whole when they were in California for the Wildfires and the interviews by HR were just what did you think of those?

[45:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, bizarre. I mean, I was confused why, if she is the one that they're really kind of concerned about, why it's such a horrible interview and why him being the one who I would assume them being concerned of being like, the perpetrator of it was like, great. I know it should have been reversed.

[46:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's also like, is this, like, the gender dynamic? But then it's like, yeah, why aren't they going harder on him? It's almost, again, like, no one believes women. Claire is saying, like, no, I wasn't coerced. I really like him. We're in a relationship. I don't want to tell you about our sex life. And they don't believe her, and they keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And I guess on the one hand, it's like, okay, you want to have some degree of skepticism because if someone is being coerced and the other person is in a more powerful position, maybe they're not going to feel comfortable to tell you. But you have to have some tact, right. And have some gut instinct know, when do you push? When do you pull back? And they just kept pushing her and made her so uncomfortable.

[47:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hannah not going to Claire, which I thought was a really good point first, and just, like, asking her, being like, hey, I saw you go into Yanko's room. What's going on? And then, like, I mean, there's two ways to look at it, but I think, like, for, like, that was a violation. Right. Like, her personal sex information is now being shared in a, you know, starting at the process and then the questions and then how it was left.

[47:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was just, like, so intrusive bad.

[47:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think that's, again, we need to do better, because I can also.

[47:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: See yeah, I can also see it from Hannah's perspective, why she would go and be afraid of her friend, and she's already triggered herself. So there's some level of projection and fear, and sometimes when bad things come out, you feel like and sometimes it is the right decision to go to the authorities who can help you rather than talk to the victim themselves or something. Right. It just gets so sticky and confusing. But it was just a really interesting portrayal of, I guess, how HR might handle it. And you want to think it wouldn't happen, but I don't think I'm naive enough to think and I'm pretty naive to think that this kind of stuff doesn't happen.

[48:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I also think it's not and I don't know whose role it is, but I think it feels just like it shouldn't be HR's role because it feels so personal and delicate, and it's like these people you're in HR. I feel like there should be a line where it's like, if something like this is coming up, you're bringing in, like, a consultant or it's like, yeah.

[48:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or it's like an EAP therapist. It's like, okay, let's keep it to.

[48:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: From HR, who, you know, their job.

[48:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Should be like, okay, do you feel threatened? Like, you should ask the questions, and if they say no, you believe them, and then you say, if anything changes, here's who you call.

[49:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[49:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or like, we have this therapist. I just want you to meet with them once and see where it goes. Right. Like someone else who can suss it out a little better. Right.

[49:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Who's not then at work with you.

[49:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Yeah.

[49:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That just feels really weird. And in all sorts of sizes of companies, it's like sometimes HR I know the last place I worked, we probably had, I don't know, like, 250 employees, 200 employees, and there was, like, two people in HR, and I knew them, and they were funny, and they're desperate. It's a conflict of interest. It's a huge conflict of interest for these matters, not for the other stuff that people who are lovely in HR do.

[49:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But again, it's like this portrayal of HR I feel like HR went too far. They were intrusive and invasive, and I felt like asking really inappropriate questions of her when she had said, I'm good, I'm fine. I wish we could have an HR professional on sometime to sort of let us know what's it like, because this also seems really stressful for them.

[50:06] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, and maybe there should be maybe the answer is, like, really significant trainings around this specifically and how to be delicate and who to call and when to bring other people in.

[50:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like some people I don't.

[50:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Know, that would be a question for them. Are you trained in how to manage a sexual misconduct issue at work? Or is it like just you kind.

[50:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of going by the book and from the legal sort of side? But what about the psychological side and human side? And I think clearly, obviously we're interested in that side, but it's a really good point. And sadly, I was so sad when it was really interesting to see both of their reactions. Yanko was like, Yay, let's shout it from the rooftops. I can take you out to a real dinner. I'm going to buy you a steak. And Claire's, like, that was the worst experience of my whole life. And then it makes her really doubt the relationship. And I think she starts to think like, well, even if it is consensual, what is everyone going to think? And is that what my whole identity is going to be in this company? Exactly. And so they sort of stopped seeing each other and they were both so sad. And then at the end, when she comes to him and he hugs her, I was like.

[51:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They did a really good job, I think, of portraying multiple women of multiple ages in multiple from different races, consensual to consensual dynamics. At know it was like Hannah mia maybe alex claire like, it was just Bradley. Really interesting to see all of it unfold.

[51:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: I totally agree. I thought it was fascinating. I'm excited for us to cover season two. Start watching it. Now that we've recorded this, are there any other final thoughts for our episode today?

[52:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't think just maybe Mia. I mean, I think we didn't talk about her enough. I wanted to discuss that one scene at the birthday party at the bar when Mia and Hannah and Claire all kind of like, get into it about Mitch. And it was just so interesting. Now, having watched the whole show and knowing all the details, like all of their reactions. Right. Claire is like, they've all been drinking and, you know, like, F, Mitch, we should burn his genitals. And then Mia has a strong reaction to that point. Things can be and Hannah's like, then asks Mia a question. I forget what it was, but that makes Mia then reactive and leave. It was just so interesting then being.

[52:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: The three of yeah, yeah. And I feel like mia loved. Like, I feel like they had a relationship, not just an affair. I feel like they were in a relationship. And you even got the sense from his wife that she knew that, too. So I feel like like loves him, and she must feel really mixed up about that.

[53:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: How did I want to know? How did it start? Because she knew about the know. I'm glad. I think Mia is know the season want.

[53:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I want to see more from Mia. She was such a compelling character. Her character arc, I think, displayed the retaliation and retribution that anyone but women can face in the workplace with something like, so clearly. And we saw that in the past when Mitch wanted her off his team, and then in the future when Chip is trying to do the right thing, so to speak, and fires that guy for being rude and saying something inappropriate. And then she's like, you can't do like, I don't want this to be my whole identity forever. And it's just so complex and complicated. Right?

[53:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then she kind of speaks into the mic right. The whole studio. And after another person makes a comment, and I'm hopeful that's kind of where it ends. And also then at the end of the day, with the situation with Hannah, and then with, obviously, Alex and Bradley giving that breaking news story, and then it gets cut.

[54:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I loved how it ended like that.

[54:16] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was great to see how everyone was watching it. Right? Like, Fred's, like, running down. Mia locks the door, she locks him out. Chip is outside watching it on Square, and so disheveled. And just Mitch is watching then and then it ends, which I thought was such an interesting scene. It's Mitch, right, sitting at the table, and the camera is, like, at his house, I think. And the camera is just, like, pulling back from him, and he's just sitting there. And it was like, 10 seconds, which is a long time for one scene of him just sitting. And I was like, that's how season one ends.

[54:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wait till you see season two. That's all I have to say.

[54:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All right, well, we should wrap it up now.

[54:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: But this was I feel like we could do ten episodes on this season. There was so much to talk about. I'm impressed with us that we got through so much so quickly. But for anyone out there listening, please interact with us. Let us know. What do you think about the show? What do you think about the themes portrayed? Do you agree with us? Do you disagree with us? We would love to engage with you and hear what you have to say. So follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts TikTok Analyze Scripts podcast, and we will see you next Monday with our next episode. Great. All right, bye.

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[55:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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