Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing the Oscar-winning film "Everything Everywhere All At Once." We discuss how the main plot line of jumping between different universes could be interpreted as representing themes of trauma, immigration, midlife crises, and parent-child relationships, particularly if one or both parties are suffering from a mental illness like depression. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fiori, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyzed Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Hi.

[00:56] Portia Pendleton: So welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts, the podcast. Today we will be talking about the Oscar winning awards, you know, receiving all star cast again.

[01:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we could call this a film.

[01:10] Portia Pendleton: Film. Yep. Iconic, interesting, curious.

[01:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Can you guys guess what we're going to talk about?

[01:17] Portia Pendleton: Or it starts with an E. We're just, like, really teasing it everything, everywhere, all at once.

[01:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's also a lot of every word starts with a vowel. It's just interesting.

[01:27] Portia Pendleton: I actually used the title in therapy a couple of times, just talking about how an intrusive thought feels or someone experienced anxiety.

[01:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it being like, everywhere, everything, everywhere all at once. Oh, my God, porsche, that's a genius. You are a good therapist.

[01:47] Portia Pendleton: That's really fitting because that's how it feels.

[01:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Especially I could imagine people with OCD with these intrusive thoughts and trying to resist the compulsive behavior. That's how it feels. Wow. Good for you.

[02:01] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And so I don't know, what does that say about the film? Or how did they pick that title.

[02:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: And what do they mean by that? Is that like, a reference to all the dimensions? I will say I watched this movie one and a half times. I tried to watch it again, but I just couldn't get through it before we recorded this. And I'm like, is this what it feels like to do acid, this movie? Or weren't you just sort of, like, really like, whoa, what is going on? At least that's how I felt watching it the first time, just kind of confused.

[02:36] Portia Pendleton: I felt like it was confusing until I had the storyline with Joy and her mom to latch onto and mom trying to help or save her daughter. And then I was like, okay, now I'm in the movie. Now I get it.

[02:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: So do you think there really are all those dimensions or that's, like, some say there are? Oh, you mean like some real people say they are? Oh, tell me about that.

[03:04] Portia Pendleton: I don't know. I just think that a lot of people maybe it's even a little bit similar to spirituality, like, helping you view the world from a different perspective that's less pressurized. Or there's all these different versions of you. There's all these different universes. What could be happening? It's not that serious.

[03:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, wow.

[03:24] Portia Pendleton: I think it's just like a way of thinking about yourself. And some of my clients, when they're experiencing intense emotions or something that is irrational but feels really hard, it's like, okay, and we're just floating on a rock. Let's kind of shift the perspective a little bit, if you can, not to diminish your problems and feelings. But sometimes I think it's helpful to think of things like that. Other times, for me, I think it's overwhelming and a little scary.

[03:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I feel, like, really anxious about that idea. That's really fascinating.

[03:57] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[03:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we were trying to think about how to structure this episode, and we were struggling, which I think also just reflects the film.

[04:06] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[04:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: That it's so all over the place. You really can't predict what's going to happen next. She pushes those little headphones, and you're in the next place, and you're jumping from here. You got to be a gymnast to go here. And it's just, like, all over the place. But I think it's really fascinating, and I would like to watch it multiple more times, because I bet it's the kind of film where the more you watch it, I bet you get something different out of it every time. And I think from a mental health perspective, there's so many different lenses that you could analyze it through, which is just really interesting to me.

[04:43] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, I think looking at it just from the storyline, I was laughing about just, like, the IRS looking so accurate. It's just so bland.

[04:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: It just makes such, like, a headache.

[04:55] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[04:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we can all relate to taxes. And Jamie Lee Curtis, as Deirdre did such a good job in her costumes. And the second time I watched it, I noticed she has all of her little IRS awards lined up on her desk, and they all look very phallic.

[05:11] Portia Pendleton: Yes.

[05:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm just like, that makes sense because she's just, like, ******** people over left and right. It was just like those little details. And then when she eats the donut or she eats something, and it's really messy and all over the place, and it's just I don't know, it's just really interesting.

[05:30] Portia Pendleton: And it's like she's the villain, but she's also the villain in their tax story. So it's like, is this even real? Is this all just a dream that Evelyn's having? Because Deirdre is the bad person and Joy is struggling. Joy is detached, and it's like, again, another lens to look at it through. Was this a dream? Is this a trauma response?

[05:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is she disassociating? Did she take drugs? Is she having a midlife crisis? Yeah, you're right. Like, Deirdre is the clear villain, but then also, it's like Joy becomes the villain, and I think probably a lot of mothers feels that toward their teenage daughters, perhaps, or that you really get the sense, like they are just at odds, like they are just butting heads.

[06:20] Portia Pendleton: And Evelyn, I think you get like they really feel disconnected. Evelyn's having a hard time understanding Joy or Jobu, and vice versa, like the depression, the drive, the relationship that Joy has with her girlfriend. And I think it's interesting. So, again, there's another storyline.

[06:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is this just all about the mother struggles relationship? And also there's a clear cultural dynamic. And so I also thought, is this a commentary on immigration?

[06:54] Portia Pendleton: Right?

[06:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because we see they're, like, trying to have this big celebration for Chinese New Year, I think, in their Laundromat. And you see through flashbacks how Raymond kind of convinced her to come to America with him. And then her parents, it sounds like, disowned her. And I don't think they would, like, answer the phone and all this stuff. And then somehow now her dad, I think his name is Gon Gong, is that right? Is visiting or living with them in his older age. It's not really clear. And you just see her so flustered trying to please him. Like, he likes his rice this way, don't overcook it. And, oh, no, now he's awake and he's going to criticize this. Raymond, stop with the googly eyes on the laundry. You just get the sense that she has felt so criticized for making her choices. And then she in turn is very critical of Joy.

[07:44] Portia Pendleton: Yes.

[07:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And even like, in that early scene when Joy and the girlfriend are, like, leaving the laundromat and her mom, Evelyn, comes up to her and is like, you need to watch. What do you read? You're getting too fat. You're just like oh. Ouch. Yeah, ouch. And like, why did she say that?

[08:05] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, and I think she, like, afterwards didn't like that.

[08:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: She said that, right? Yeah. And I think, like, at least what I interpreted from the film is like, at the beginning, you really see those struggles between Joy and Evelyn, and you see how Joy is really struggling to introduce her girlfriend to the grandfather and their native language. And Evelyn steps in and introduces the girlfriend as a friend. And that's, like, again, really damaging to Joy. But then it feels like by the end, evelyn has come to this place of better understanding and more acceptance. And in that way, I was like, this could also be a commentary on intergenerational trauma or even just like the way you communicate in your family and how you can shift that for the next generation if you're willing to be open and understand where your kids are coming from and work on it.

[09:00] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, the theme through it a lot was like, nothing matters. And that's a common feeling when you are experiencing depression.

[09:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: And maybe for teenagers.

[09:12] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, no, absolutely. And so one of the lines in the movie is, if nothing matters, then the pain and guilt you feel goes away when they're like universe hopping. Some of the other things that they say, you're so capable of everything because you're so bad at everything. What else? You're not unlovable. There is always something to love. Joyce says I'm useless and alone. Evelyn we're all useless and alone. There's just a lot of again, that perspective taking.

[09:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's being like we all feel this way times. I think she's out of high school. She's I would say, like, early 20s.

[09:54] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, maybe.

[09:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: But still in that early adulthood phase, which can be so hard and scary and isolating. Especially if you feel so different from your parents or from your family of origin, which I think a lot of second generation Americans might feel. Right. Like if your parents are trying to assimilate into American culture, even, like, the language in the house or with Joy having to come to the IRS to translate and all this stuff, I feel like I do hear this from a lot of my patients whose parents immigrated but who've been in America since birth, that there is this tension. And of course there is.

[10:37] Portia Pendleton: And there's also an inappropriate parentification, almost.

[10:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of the child because you can navigate the culture exactly, language in a different way. And even, like, in the clothing they chose for the characters and stuff like that. Joy, before she's, like, the evil person and all dressed up, looks more like, quote, unquote American in her jeans and stuff like that.

[11:09] Portia Pendleton: How long would you say the first time you watched it? Did it take you to kind of get in and connect with any storyline?

[11:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like I had this reverse thing where I felt connected and in it more in the beginning. And then as we kept jumping from universe to universe in the middle, I was really confused and having a hard time following it. And then near the end, like, when Evelyn and Joy are really coming back together, I was like, okay, now I'm back. But it was hard for me to follow, I think, just because it's such a different movie than I'm used to watching. And it's cool. It's just different. Really unique.

[11:47] Portia Pendleton: Which, I mean, I think also speaks to why they won. I mean, what a concept. How do you come up with that? And I'm curious about the writers. Are we close or are we way off?

[11:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: What was the message they were trying to send? Yeah, I don't know. And I loved the actor who played Raymond Gosh. Now, of course, from The Goonies and from Indiana Jones. And then, I guess, at the Oscars. Harrison Ford gave him his Oscar, which is like, what a full circle moment.

[12:19] Portia Pendleton: So beautiful.

[12:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really cool. And, yeah, he was just really great in his role, too. Yeah, he did a great job.

[12:32] Portia Pendleton: So one of the moments that I actually cried at was when they were rocks. Do you remember that?

[12:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And how they kind of held hands as rocks.

[12:42] Portia Pendleton: Yes. And they kind of, like, rolled over to each other. Yeah.

[12:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think Joy was like, mom, you don't have to be so close. Am I remembering that right?

[12:49] Portia Pendleton: The commentary between the two of them while they were rocks was, like, so beautiful. And I'm wondering if it was because there was nothing, right. It was devoid. So it was a universe where there was no light, there was no culture. Yeah. There was no barrier, no pain, just literally like, you're rocks, you're a rock. And is that why they were able to have the conversation that they were.

[13:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Have they just connect?

[13:14] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, because there was just nothing in the way. There were no barriers. There were no expectations. It was just so beautiful. And then I was like, I can't believe I'm crying at rocks, but that's how powerful the writing or the context or what kind of put that up to that moment for me. I was laughing after.

[13:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, I agree. I had forgotten about that till you brought it up. But I did really love that moment, too. And then it's like, did all of that or any of that actually happen? Or was that like a journey Evelyn was going through in her mind, in a way, to try to connect with Joy? And was there something about Evelyn's dad being back in her life that sort of rocked Evelyn and made her rocked Evelyn? We were just talking about rocks and made her realize, like, it's now or never, like, I have to figure out how to connect with my daughter. I'm going to lose her, like, the way I lost my dad or, I don't know. Portia, what do you think? Do you think they really were in these universes, or is it a metaphor?

[14:21] Portia Pendleton: I think it's got to be a metaphor just because some of it's so unbelievable and in a good way. Like when they have the hot dogs for fingers in one of the universes, in that universe, Evelyn and Didro together. Yeah, like romantically. And then they're playing out all these other interesting things that Evelyn does get a little caught up in someone in some ways. Like, one, she's this actress. Another one, she's an opera singer. Another one she I don't know, had stayed with her family. And then in another way, Waymond is like, rich, and they are together and then they're not. Or then they meet and they used to be friends, and she gets stuck a little bit and then it says Waymond.

[15:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, I think that's right. I mispronounced.

[15:08] Portia Pendleton: Okay. Because I was like, I'm not just having a hard time saying my r yeah. So he is like, don't get stuck here. He's like, snapping her out of it, like trying to get her to jump again. I thought how you jump was interesting. It's like you needed to get it.

[15:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Was either, like, a little bit of.

[15:23] Portia Pendleton: Pain and almost like a body shock. One time it was a sneeze paper cut. That's what happened. Or that's what helps you jump universes.

[15:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: But also it's like, those sort of experiences or emotions that come from the experience of, like, a sneeze, a paper cut, like she was saying, you can't intentionally correct feel. So somehow you have to be present with the feeling that comes from this natural, random thing. Fascinating. And then there was the time where she had to say to Deirdre, I love you, but really mean it. And so it was really tied into deep, authentic emotions, being able to jump from universe to universe, which maybe she.

[16:03] Portia Pendleton: Hasn'T been able to feel.

[16:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's where I kept seeing this as more of, like, trauma or even just thinking about Evelyn. She's probably what, her 40s or 50s, been married now. Her daughter got her through school. Now she's a young adult. They're struggling to connect. I was like, I feel like this is her kind of being like, this is my life, like, taxes and this laundromat, and this is it. And then these universes as being, like, alternative realities, like, well, what if I'd made this choice? I could have been here. What if I'd done that? I could have been here. And she's just sort of, like, so in her head about it. And I think that's when Wayman is like, I can't connect with you unless it's, like, a crisis. And so he has these divorce papers. I thought it was fascinating when the divorce paper but on the other side of it, at the beginning, was, like, the directions for how to jump from universe to universe. And when she was like, You've seen this before? Yeah, when he's just like, yes. It's normal, I think, to think about stuff like that as you are at different stages of your life, probably when you've been in a committed relationship for so long, I think it's pretty normal to have points where you're like and.

[17:20] Portia Pendleton: When things just get really predictable. This is what I do every single day, and there's nothing that deviates from it besides going to the IRS, which is a soul sucking I didn't even.

[17:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Know you could actually go. Right.

[17:37] Portia Pendleton: Can you? I know there's buildings where people work.

[17:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I was like, God, how scary to go do your taxes like that in person. That just sounds so scary to me. When they had to bring her dad and then Waymond, though, when they're walking and he sees an older couple who clearly is still in love, and you can just really feel that yearning in him that I think he does love her, and he's kind of like, why are you so disconnected? And maybe Evelyn's depressed.

[18:11] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, because I think Waymond is so silly and lively eyes. That's how he keeps it lively. And I think at some point, I would guess that Evelyn was matching him or thought was commenting on his silliness or enjoying it. And it's like she's so kind of, like, deadpanned flat, like, nonreactive not, like, interacting with him or being like, oh, that's funny. It's like, stop doing that. That's annoying.

[18:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: But also, she's the one doing the taxes, so you're like, is he the silly, fun one? But then he doesn't pick up the responsibility side of things on her, and so maybe she is feeling resentful or frustrated with him. Right. Maybe she is sick of the googly eyes because they're in debt, but then it's like they're in debt because she was, like, putting karaoke machines and stuff, like, on the business. Yeah.

[19:05] Portia Pendleton: All right, portia.

[19:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, you know, we don't have, like, sponsors or or anything like that yet, but maybe someday we will. And if we did, this is where they would go. So what kind of sponsor would you like to see?

[19:18] Portia Pendleton: I think really anything that is, like, I want to use, like, spindrift, sparkling water.

[19:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: I would love for that to sponsor us.

[19:28] Portia Pendleton: You love that you have them all the time. All the time. So what else would I like? I feel like I don't wear a lot of makeup daily, but I am like a makeup. Get ready with me, girly. I love watching that stuff. So any makeup brand want to send me something? Even though you can't see us, that maybe is problematic.

[19:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: What else? Again, like, on the delusions of all grandiose delusions on our vision board is an airline with the lay flat seat. I really want to take a flight and lay down.

[19:57] Portia Pendleton: I mean, if you're going to go big, maybe you should just do Emirates.

[20:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you don't actually have to take me anywhere. We'll just lay down, go up in the air, circle around a couple times, and we can come down. But that's my ultimate sponsor dream. So this is where you'd hear a commercial. If we had them so far, we don't, but keep subscribing if you don't.

[20:26] Portia Pendleton: So then we have this, again, like, metaphor of the everything bagel.

[20:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[20:34] Portia Pendleton: And so Jobu is kind of like it seems almost jobu, the evil joy. Yeah.

[20:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.

[20:42] Portia Pendleton: She has this, like, almost what I would call it palace. Castle. Whatever. You see it. But this bagel is, like, in this room that's, like, special, and it's, like, behind this curtain, and it's raised, and.

[20:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: It'S like the wizard of Oz.

[20:58] Portia Pendleton: Again, it's trying to suck Jobu in, or I'm thinking of it this way, depression. It has already taken joy, and now it's Jobu, because Jobu looked at it. Right. And she's trying to get Evelyn to and if you look at it, you go in, it changes everything, sucks everything it sucks everything out of you. Jobu can now be in every single she sees right. Every single dimension at once, which is really overwhelming and problematic, but she got too close to the fire, so she's kind of trying to suck her mom into it. I don't think she maybe even sees that. That's her mom. That's confusing. Evelyn's trying to get her back out of it to pull her out or she's like, I'm going to go in there with you. Which again, I mean, it's just like that whole narrative is really, I thought, beautiful.

[21:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Gosh. It really speaks to, I think, being the parent of a child with serious mental illness.

[22:02] Portia Pendleton: Right, yeah.

[22:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like how desperately you want to pull them out or be in it with them so they're not alone. Try to save them and the lengths.

[22:10] Portia Pendleton: That you'll go jumping universes to try.

[22:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: To get into that dimension, try to connect with them.

[22:15] Portia Pendleton: So they're holding on to Jobu at the end where she's kind of, I think, going to throw herself into the bagel and Evelyn is saying to her, like, no matter what, I want to be here with you, I always want to be here with you. Which sounds like probably not what Joy feels. Jobu says something like you could be anything anywhere. We only get a few specks of time where it makes sense and then I'll cherish this. Again, I think it's like if you are depressed, you kind of have this perception or your reality is that everything's bad and you might get a few moments here and there that are okay and is that good enough? So the bagel was interesting and again.

[23:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: How did you come up with that and everything? Again, like that word everything, which is like in the title. And they just keep alluding to that and how I think when people are feeling really severely depressed, I think there does have to be almost like, I want to say like a healthy amount of cognitive dissonance to just get through life. Right. Because life is hard.

[23:25] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[23:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we all felt that and maybe continue to feel that coming out of the pandemic in those days where you're just really trying to survive and you don't know how this is going to end, if this will end, if we're all just going to wear masks forever. It's almost protective to have a healthy amount of cognitive dissonance or be able to hold on to optimism. And I feel like when you're really severely depressed, you lose that and in some ways you're more in touch with the harshness of reality but in a way that really keeps you down. And that kind of reminds me of Joy, like being in the everything bagel and seeing all the universes and almost like having all the answers. But it's overwhelming and depressing.

[24:06] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I agree. I've talked about from patients bringing it up, nihilism. Yeah, right. So it's like kind of the way of thinking that nothing really matters, we're.

[24:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really small and I think point.

[24:21] Portia Pendleton: Right, exactly. And how fitting is that with depressive thoughts? And I think it almost goes hand in hand and it's a little bit of like chicken or the egg. What came first. It's like is your overthinking and too much self awareness leading you down this path where you're just so affected by things and constantly overthinking and thinking of all the worsts and feeling it so deeply versus the cognitive little bit of like and we're also on a rock that's moving X amount of speed. And it doesn't really matter. You need to have a either way.

[24:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Because I think you're totally right. If you are viewing the world as like, none of this matters, nothing matters, what's the point? If you are sort of experiencing that through a depressive lens, then you're really nihilistic and suicidal or not getting out of bed or just really like I'm imagining, like, slow lethargic, really detached. On the flip side, if you had the same thoughts but you were feeling manic, you might be impulsive and thrilled.

[25:32] Portia Pendleton: Nothing matters. I'm charging hundreds of thousands of dollars. Exactly.

[25:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm going to go down this crazy vacation. So it's just interesting sort of which flavor which view you have, right?

[25:42] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[25:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: And interestingly now that we are saying that this movie kind of targets both, right? It does very much feel like a commentary on depression and Joy and maybe even Evelyn. But then it's portrayed in such a colorful, exuberant all over the place way that it's an interesting I think that's a really interesting juxtaposition.

[26:09] Portia Pendleton: And just thinking of Joy's age, she's at a transition time. I think a lot of young people can be situationally environmentally transitionally, depressed, 100%, or just starting to think of their whole life ahead of them and how's it going to be. I think a lot of teens throughout COVID and also just like with things being so expensive, it's just a little student loans.

[26:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's no jobs available. It's heavy inflation, and you feel stuck.

[26:41] Portia Pendleton: And I think that leads to a lot of us thinking about these things of what does it really matter? Or I'm never going to be able to do this, never going to be.

[26:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Able for it to move out anyway. Yeah, but then also Evelyn might be feeling that too, at that point of transition in her life, or maybe even doing like a life review and kind of reflecting or seeing her father aging and wondering about the decisions she made. It's like they're both going through it in their own way. And it's just so hard for them to connect until these universes and all of this sort of like, mystical, magical stuff comes up and now they can finally understand each other. So interesting. And then it's just like, I don't have personal experience here, but I wonder is that kind of emotionally what it feels like if your parents have immigrated and so they're in this new place, but for you, this is what you know. Right. Is that kind of what it feels like, that you guys are in these different universes, different worlds. It's hard to connect and you can't quite reach each other. I don't know.

[27:50] Portia Pendleton: It brings up a lot just the movie. And again, I think the cast is so interesting. Jamie lee Curtis. It feels like random, but it's so perfect. Yeah, it couldn't have been cast better. I'm just laughing about I feel like I need to watch it again in like, a year. Yeah.

[28:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like every couple maybe just like, check in with yourself. Maybe it will give you some insight as to the state of your mental health. Like, how are you feeling as you watch it?

[28:20] Portia Pendleton: It made me think a little bit of manifestation in the little more way that I don't really subscribe to. I think I like talking about manifestation of, like, what you do leads to where you end up. So, like, if I'm manifesting this podcast taking off, I am going to talk about it with people. I believe in it. I'm going to hand our cards out. I'm going to continue going to force TikTok.

[28:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: TikTok. Exactly.

[28:46] Portia Pendleton: And if I don't believe in, I'm not going to do those things, then I'm not going to get anywhere. So that's my kind of version of manifestation.

[28:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: But there are especially, like, celebrities for.

[28:55] Portia Pendleton: A lot of people, it's a little bit more of speaking it into the universe. The universe then kind of makes it.

[29:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Happen, really feeling it with your vision.

[29:05] Portia Pendleton: Board.

[29:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: That kind of manifestation and the.

[29:11] Portia Pendleton: Layer, then that becomes a little mystical. So that just made me think of this and the different dimensions and what do people think really exists out there? And are there different versions of ourselves? I think it also brings up the question of, like, every day we make countless choices that lead us to where we currently are.

[29:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And what if you did this thing different?

[29:36] Portia Pendleton: I'm trying to think of something super crazy right now. I could just lean to my right and break this window, but okay, that would lead to a series of events, but I'm probably not going to do that. That might hurt, et cetera. I have some clients today that I need to see. But it's like we could do anything anytime, and yet we make these decisions, hopefully, that are positively getting us to our goals and what we want out of life and that are associated with our value systems, et cetera. But it's that interesting way of thinking kind of too big sometimes. And one of my supervisors just gave me kind of a helpful way of thinking about people's symptoms. Sometimes we are too far out with our thinking. So it's like thinking of a bicycle wheel and the spokes. So sometimes we have, like, a spoke. Those are way up there. The straight things that kind of go around.

[30:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay, got it.

[30:33] Portia Pendleton: So sometimes we're thinking way too out there and we need to kind of be brought back down with, like, mindfulness, where am I? What are my goals? What am I doing? Other times, we're way too small, so we're thinking way too closely about things. We're overthinking things. We need to kind of take a couple of. Steps back, look at bigger picture, challenge things like, is this really that bad, et cetera. So I think this movie is a lot of the times for people who are like, what? The focus is way up high, and we need to kind of be brought back safely so we can go on our life. I don't know.

[31:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: That is really interesting.

[31:07] Portia Pendleton: It brings up a lot of theories, and I think it'd be interesting if we had someone here who was more into dimensional stuff, because I'm just, like.

[31:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not I didn't know those people were out there. Maybe they could DM us or send us an email. We could do, like, a follow up.

[31:27] Portia Pendleton: That's fascinating.

[31:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And I'd love to know, is there any science behind it? Is there physics about different universes or.

[31:36] Portia Pendleton: The black holes and all of that stuff?

[31:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: The Bermuda Triangle?

[31:44] Portia Pendleton: Are there windows or points in our life where we some people talk about this. Like, they they're able to kind of, like, see themselves. Or, like, some people talk about deja vu. Like, is this you crossing over with another dimension? It's fascinating to think about different fun theories.

[32:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow, that is fascinating and kind of scary for my neurotic brain.

[32:05] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So I think it feels if I'm diagnosing you not with a disorder. But I would say we both probably run too short with our spokes where we're overthinking, things are a little bit more anxious related. Well, same. I don't think you have that problem where I need to bring you back in.

[32:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, no, you need to go out.

[32:31] Portia Pendleton: A little bit more.

[32:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: I need to open my mind a little bit, like, be a little more open to the deja vu. But even thinking about that does make me nervous. Like, I really like routine. So the thought of, like, other Katrina's out there doing this and that and this and that is, like, whoa, I need a minute to think about that.

[32:54] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, well, take the year and then.

[32:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Rewatch the film maybe, too. Just, like, with our own personality makeups. Maybe that's why, for me, I was so confused by this movie and kind of a little nervous while watching because I didn't know what to expect. And then, like you said, the hot dog fingers, and then this is happening, and then this. And I was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I can't get my bearings. What is the plot? What am I supposed to take from this? Are we all going to be okay at the end? What is going on here?

[33:25] Portia Pendleton: Which is probably why, again, this one, because it's so unique and makes you have all these questions, and I think it's fresh. This is a fresh film. This is a unique idea, and I.

[33:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Love it, but can you imagine who pitched this to whatever film giant made it? Can you imagine? And I wonder, did they just pitch it or did they try to, like, this is what I would have done.

[33:55] Portia Pendleton: Portia yeah.

[33:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: I would have been really sneaky and maybe a little bizarre and tried to create these alternate universes around whoever I'm going to be pitching and kind of freak them out a little bit. And then they would realize that was all part of my game plan to show them what this might feel like. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's what I would have done.

[34:14] Portia Pendleton: Well, maybe you could. There's still time. So it was directed by written and directed by Daniel Quan and Daniel Shinert, known as the Daniels.

[34:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, the Daniels.

[34:26] Portia Pendleton: So they wrote it and produced it.

[34:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Interesting, too, that they both have the same name.

[34:31] Portia Pendleton: Oh, it's an independent studio. A 24. That did it.

[34:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, they also did the whale.

[34:36] Portia Pendleton: I knew I recognized it. Yeah.

[34:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

[34:38] Portia Pendleton: They had a fantastic dominee. Yeah.

[34:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was just thinking, too, though, as we were talking about the emotions that get stirred up by this film. Similarly, The Whale, how it stirs up such intense, big emotions. Wow. Good for them. If they want to come on the podcast, feel free. We would even send you, like, your own microphone, but you probably have one.

[35:00] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, they probably do. We'll send you a gift bag of therapy coping skills.

[35:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, you might need it.

[35:08] Portia Pendleton: They might need to come down a little bit, but maybe that in the right context, if you have the ability, the privilege, et cetera. People who are way out there can stay. But a lot of the times, sometimes it's not safe or it's not, unfortunately productive to survive in this culture. So I think that's, again, oh, man.

[35:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: I really want to read about them. I wonder if they have biographies or maybe at least a Wikipedia page that I can look at. Well, so as we wrap up, it's also making me think that next time we will be talking with Dr. Jesse Gold about Yellow Jacket season two. And I think we're going to talk a lot about lottie and cults. And that's another example of someone way out there. And again, in some ways, like when you were in the wilderness, that was beneficial to your survival. But now back not in the wilderness. She has sort of found a way to kind of make it work, until it doesn't. It's just interesting how these themes are connecting across our episodes. Cool.

[36:11] Portia Pendleton: We'll definitely catch us. We have a fun summer ahead of awesome episodes. White Lotus, Euphoria, some movies. Barbie, we're going to oh, yeah. When it comes.

[36:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: We might even do, like, an Instagram live at the movies for Barbie. Tell us what you'd think about that. Yeah, I don't know how to do TikTok live. Can you go live on that? Wow. That's why I watched all the concerts. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry, Portia.

[36:36] Portia Pendleton: I'm still grieving.

[36:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe in another universe you were there.

[36:39] Portia Pendleton: I think in most universes I was there, except for this one I'm going to take solace in that.

[36:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[36:46] Portia Pendleton: This is the only universe that I wasn't there. Great.

[36:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, don't think about it too much. Don't overthink. No, you're going to find yourself sucked into that everything bagel.

[36:56] Portia Pendleton: And it was easy to do that weekend that she was close, but then now I have kind of reined myself back in closer to the bicycle wheel and I'm good.

[37:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, good for you. That's some strength right there in action.

[37:11] Portia Pendleton: Well, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe, follow us on Instagram at analyze scripts and on TikTok at analyze scripts podcast, and we'll see you next time.

[37:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: We'll see you next Monday.

[37:21] Portia Pendleton: Bye.

[37:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited, unless you want to share.

[37:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: It with your friends and rate, review and subscribe. That's fine.

[37:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time you sand.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we analyze the final season of "Succession" with a focus on the (lack of) psychological development of the adult siblings (initially we wrote "children" - Freudian slip!). We also discuss the masterful portrayals of grief related to Logan's death, as well as the expert depiction of ecalating attachment issues and maladaptive externalizing behaviors in the face of such significant loss. We pay homage to some of our favorite supporting characters, including Greg, Caroline, and Willa, and the amazing music. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Gosh, Portia. I don't know about you, but I'm really going to miss this song.

[01:26] Portia Pendleton: I know.

[01:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: I really want to make it my ringtone for When You Call me. But then, like, what will other people.

[01:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, they'll be like, who's calling you sociopath?

[01:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but it's such a good.

[01:39] Portia Pendleton: Song, a raging narcissist.

[01:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I don't know if you noticed, but somewhere, like, halfway through season four, when Kendall's, like, amping himself up to go into the office, the intro song was a little different. It had more of, like, a rap undertone. And I just thought that was so fascinating. I just think the music in this show is so good. And even, like, near the end with the Meal Fit for the King, they're sort of playing it, but in a more playful, childish way. It's just so good, and I'm really going to miss the song.

[02:09] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, you hear it, like, softer, more sad, more exciting throughout, especially season four. I don't recall hearing it differently prior.

[02:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: To and the other season, it's just so, so good. But we have a lot to talk about with season four. I don't even know exactly how to get started because so much happened.

[02:28] Portia Pendleton: I know. Yeah. At the end of season three, right. We talked about Tom and kind of the whoa. Like wolf and sheep's.

[02:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, for you, not for me. I knew it. I knew it.

[02:40] Portia Pendleton: Tom just still feels like I don't even know. Like, I'm still not mad by him. I don't know why.

[02:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think because he's charismatic. Like a true sociopath would be.

[02:51] Portia Pendleton: He could be, like, a cult leader.

[02:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'd be like I'd be, like, 100%. He reminds me of Tom Sandoval in the whole Vanderpump Rules scandal. Another Tom. Oh, my God. You're right. Never name your child Tom. If there's anything we can warn you against from this podcast, do not name them Tom. That's so funny. But yeah, I think he's such a snake. He is so slimy. He is so narcissistic. However, he's also charming, and he's definitely, like, more of a covert flavor where you might not pick it up as much as, like, Kendall, like, throwing himself a big party, just being ridiculous l to the OG. Stuff like that is way more obvious. But I think that's what makes Tom so freaking dangerous. And the fact that he can really just plow over anyone to get what he wants at the end of the.

[03:46] Portia Pendleton: Day, and why he's successful 100%, and why the kids, which we will continue to call them, are not the children.

[03:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: The adult, fully grown, forty s. Thirty.

[03:58] Portia Pendleton: S, like fully adults.

[04:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But they are children. The kids ultimately aren't successful. It's so funny, right? Because I feel like everyone in the world has been waiting for the season finale of succession to see who finally gets waste arm Royko, who gets it, and then it's Tom. And of course it is, right?

[04:19] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[04:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: But we all thought one of these.

[04:21] Portia Pendleton: Kids would finally or no one at all, right?

[04:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: That all of them. It would just be Matson or something like that. But of course it's Tom. And it's so, I think, scary because I bet this is how it really works in politics and in the world. I bet people who are like the figurehead of power probably have these underlings that report to them and do their dirty work, right?

[04:51] Portia Pendleton: Like Hugo.

[04:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Hugo carl. Frank. Right. We saw them all kind of unravel a little bit with the threat of losing their job or with Matson taking over, like, again, trying to play the field, to hold on to their own power. But then we really see it with Tom and Matson and, like, that dinner conversation they had.

[05:12] Portia Pendleton: And it seemed so, like, crazy to me when Tom was talking to Carl Frank and Jerry in the pantry, right, at the small funeral, after part, after party party, after reception at Logan's residence, where Tom's like, well, I'd like to throw my hat in. And I'm like, yeah, whatever, you sound crazy.

[05:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then there you go.

[05:39] Portia Pendleton: And they're all bowing down to him in the last but he can do that. I was thinking if Kendall got it, I think they all know that Kendall.

[05:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is a little tapped.

[05:50] Portia Pendleton: Like, he's unwell, he's unstable and impulsive.

[05:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Risky, and he's not smart. What business savvy does he have to be in charge? Like, none. Right. Again. And even, like, earlier on, wondering with Kendall's name underlined or crossed out? Underlined or crossed out.

[06:09] Portia Pendleton: I saw some people got, like, tattoos of that. Yes.

[06:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: What?

[06:13] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I saw it online. Like, couple people got, like, tattoos of because I didn't know what the line because I was like, oh, the line's off.

[06:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And I was like, that's a bad tattoo.

[06:22] Portia Pendleton: But it was not.

[06:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was a perfect tattoo, I guess. Wow.

[06:26] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[06:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Gosh. Wow.

[06:27] Portia Pendleton: Getting tattooed committed, really session.

[06:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's also, I think, what just fascinates me about the writing of this show, because they get it so right. I think we've talked about some other shows like you, where they get it really good, really right. They can really nail down these dynamics. But this show is, like, in a different stratosphere of accuracy, and not just with the dialogue, but the body language, the interactions. Every time those kids are around their mom, it's just perfectly acted and written, and it's like, I feel so bad for whoever on this team has a mother like this, because that's the only way, you know, I think, honestly, how to get it so spot on, and it just translates so well. You just feel it through your screen. And I think that's why we end up rooting for these kids, even though they're also awful. Yeah, it's wild to me, you're on.

[07:23] Portia Pendleton: This ride where it's just like, I don't know, the highs and the lows. You hate, and then I'm rooting and then I hate, and then I'm rooting for them over and over and over.

[07:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: And over and over. And also, the show is so intense and hilarious. It's so good with the wasabi in the eye on election night, and then.

[07:41] Portia Pendleton: The lemon salts are burning.

[07:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: And was this the season where Tom and Greg were the disgusting brothers? Is that starting at the end of season three?

[07:52] Portia Pendleton: I don't remember.

[07:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it's just so good.

[07:56] Portia Pendleton: It is.

[07:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's just so good. And I think, again, we end succession, and I feel like every single character is still exactly who they were at the beginning of season one. There's been no psychological growth, personal growth. If anything, they're all like a more externalized, ickier version of themselves, all the way down to, like, Jerry, Frank, Carl. I feel like the only ones who grew a little is, like, Jess, the assistant who quit, rava, who left, and maybe the girl with the bangs who was like, Logan's girlfriend.

[08:35] Portia Pendleton: Carrie.

[08:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Carrie, yeah.

[08:36] Portia Pendleton: Maybe she's doing well. Maybe she's in therapy and, like, doing some work.

[08:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I could see that she was the like, what? I know we're jumping around a lot, but at Logan's funeral with the four women in the front, like, what did you think of?

[08:49] Portia Pendleton: I thought that was so unexpected and just, like, such a fabulous scene. I love that. Obviously, Marcia was so cruel to Carrie, and you get it. And then Caroline being like, this was.

[09:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: My Carrie, and then they all kind of bond over it, and they're sitting in the front row altogether again. All those spectators can see all of those women together, and they can figure out what's going on. But then Marsh just like, lucy's not going to snort. Right. And they can all bond over it. It was just, like, so icky, but perfect and so humanizing and just like, wow, really interesting that they could all bond in that way. Yeah.

[09:34] Portia Pendleton: So I think we should start with Kendall.

[09:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.

[09:37] Portia Pendleton: He and the other two siblings are kind of working together post betrayal with Tom with their $3 billion and just trying to come up with all these companies and these ideas. The 100.

[09:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God, what a lame idea.

[09:52] Portia Pendleton: It was kind of comical to me.

[09:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because I was just like, just take.

[09:57] Portia Pendleton: The money and go live on board, start a little business. Why do you guys have to work together?

[10:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Don't just go live your life. Right?

[10:08] Portia Pendleton: And they still want so desperately to get back at their dad at this point. They're going to somehow kind of come in the back door and make the offer. They're working with that family to buy that other news station, and they're kind of going back and forth about it. Kendall seems to be trying to sabotage that deal. So Kendall's already starting to backstab Sharon and Shiv so they can't work together. And it's like, really?

[10:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, it's like they always get in their own way. Yeah, right. But again, that is exactly what happens with people with these personality traits. Like no, Kendall is a raging narcissist. He can't be on a team of three, even if it's his siblings, even if it's in his best interest, even if that's what will lead to further generational for his children. He cannot he has to be number one. He is the eldest boy, after all, right? That is who he is through and through. So even here again, and it's notable that the only time the three siblings are like the Three Musketeers is when.

[11:06] Portia Pendleton: They are totally.

[11:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Ousted by their dad or totally exiled on the outside. That's the only time.

[11:14] Portia Pendleton: And even with that, I would say they're only really on the same page when it's an intense emotion that they can all share. Right, so it's like betrayal. They are all betrayed by their dad, who sold is selling their company and their mom, and then they are all together in grief when dad dies.

[11:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's such a good point, Portia.

[11:36] Portia Pendleton: But it's like these little moments they're all together for when at the end, Shiv finds out that Matson is betraying her. And then they are like, no, we're going to vote. We're going to take it back. We're team Kendall. They're all together in that moment, but it's like such short lived. And then one of them can't do that, can't tolerate for whatever reason, but it's like something always happens. They can never be on the same page, actually.

[11:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, Portia? And what a good observation that they can only align when they're each feeling the exact same emotion almost in the exact same way. But once sort of like that wave of an emotion starts to crash down or subside, and maybe other emotions start to bubble up or it becomes less black or white, and they're not totally seeing it and feeling it the exact same way, that now they can't be aligned, and it's very extreme. That's a really good point because it's.

[12:31] Portia Pendleton: Like someone always sabotages it for whatever reason. And it's just like you guys can't ever just get it together. You can't ever get it. They can never either be empathetic towards the other one and do something without personal gain involved, which we know why, but there's no empathy.

[12:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, it's so extreme. They are all such extreme. They have such extreme flavors of narcissism that you're right. They really can't like, Roman and Shiv cannot tolerate Kendall being the leader. They've never been able to from the beginning. That has been their downfall. You got to just pick one, right? And they just can't it has to be even like, when they were at the moms and Shiv was like, quote unquote, joking about murdering Kendall, I thought they might I would not have been surprised if they had. I really was like, they're going to do it. And I don't think she was joking. I think that's, like one of those.

[13:26] Portia Pendleton: Times where she's already in slip in.

[13:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: The waters to see, like, will Roman go along with that? I bet if he was going to go along with it, they would have done.

[13:36] Portia Pendleton: Or if it would look good for the board, it would do something for Shiv and Roman, like, and maybe they, in that moment, were like, no, that would be like, another crisis and that would be bad.

[13:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, I think, like, what they realized was it'd be really it's really hard to clean up a dead body. So unlike Goldberg, they did have that forethought. Right?

[13:54] Portia Pendleton: So let's think about Kendall's reaction to grief.

[13:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: That episode, I think it was episode three, where Logan dies on the plane, like, of all places, with Tom, of course.

[14:06] Portia Pendleton: I know. So he gets to be there, right? Like, he gets to be a part of that. The chaos which all of his siblings, I think, would die to be a part of.

[14:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have to say that was the only time in this whole show where I thought, maybe Tom is a good guy. The way he called them and was being so calm and telling them, I'm going to cry thinking about it, telling them to come to the phone. And I thought, like, wow, does he have any shred of I think he.

[14:35] Portia Pendleton: Does, because I don't think he's like, sociopathic psychopathic. I think that he can understand those emotions. I think he does love Shiv. I think he just loves himself more, you know what I mean? So it's like he can produce empathy and care, but in that moment, that was also the right thing to do. You know what I mean? It looked good. And I think it aligned with this is the right thing to do and it benefits me.

[15:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: But also yeah, I did feel, though, like there was more of this is the right thing to do than just, it benefits me. Yeah. Yes, totally. You know, until I think it was in the last episode, he he like, really threw it in Shiv's face when he said something about, well, I did say goodbye to Logan, and they were arguing about something and it was like a smaller comment. It wasn't as big as their explosive fight on the balcony before the election, but I thought, like, what a dagger to throw. Like, what a dagger. Remember? Because they didn't get Shiven time. Oh, God. It was just heartbreaking. But the portrayal of all three siblings, like, the shock of getting the news and trying to figure out how do you say goodbye to a parent you love because it's your father, but you hate because he's been a terribly abusive, awful parent to you. Like, how do you say goodbye? And I was actually so glad that they depicted how hard it was for them to figure out what to say and that they didn't all just kind of, like, let Logan off the hook. Right.

[16:10] Portia Pendleton: So Kendall was, like, upset and then I'm not remembering, which I wonder if this is interesting, his actual reaction. Reaction. Because I'm remembering Roman very clearly.

[16:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: I remember **** really clearly. I think Kendall was, like, kind of stunned and shocked, but then knew he had to take care of business. Right. I think he was the first one who heard. Right. Like, I think Tom called him and so he got to say something to Logan first. And then he was like, we need to get Roman. We need to get ship. This is Connor's wedding. How are we going to tell him? His wheels started going and again, that's where you're like, so he should take over the company because he can do that. Stay cool under pressure and kind of dissociate from your own feelings in order to there's some people who are really good under pressure like that. But yeah, I don't remember him having he was tearful, but not in the same way. Roman just was so raw.

[17:11] Portia Pendleton: Right. Kendall kind of jumped into action and was already thinking about what the voting wanted him to stay up in the air. No. Kendall was like, can we maybe? And Shiv were thinking about, can we have the plane circle for a while? Right. So that the end of day would come so that they didn't have to tell the markets and they would have the weekend. And Roman was like, no, absolutely not. He needs to come down and receive medical care. Roman had the hardest time admitting what was happening. Kendall, I think, was first, too, and then Shiv was second. But Roman had struggled a lot.

[17:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. Kieran Culkin's whole acting, like, in this whole series, especially season four, was just astounding. I also find myself so attracted to him, which we talked about last time, and like, why? This is a terrible character.

[18:00] Portia Pendleton: I'm more attracted to Tom. Why?

[18:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: We got that interesting. Analyze that about yourself. What does that say?

[18:11] Portia Pendleton: Definitely not Kendall or Connor.

[18:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: No. Right.

[18:14] Portia Pendleton: Logan.

[18:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: No. Maybe Greg. Intermittently. Just I think Greg's so tall. I find that fascinating. Well, I'm attracted to Roman, so that is true. Makes sense. But no Roman's reaction. So raw.

[18:32] Portia Pendleton: I cried.

[18:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: I did too. With all of them. Oh, my God. And then when Shiv came and was like, I just can't like so shocked and was like, why didn't you come get me? And they're like, we try. Oh, my God. Just so heartbreaking. And the fact that Logan died when they were in such a big fight, I feel like that's almost everyone's biggest.

[18:52] Portia Pendleton: Fear in the world.

[18:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, when you fight with your parents, and it's a really big one that they're going to die before you can make up.

[18:58] Portia Pendleton: And that's why I think so many people do have different ways of handling it. So it's like you don't ever confront, you know what I mean? Some people never confront because of that. Other people, it's almost, like, easier to have it be constantly conflictual because we can't tolerate the thought of being on.

[19:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Bad terms or like, oh, it's just heartbreaking. And then sort of rewinding and thinking about that final scene with them all together at the random karaoke place for Connor's bachelor party when Willa's like, maybe cheating on him unclear. And like, the stuff Logan was saying to them that was so despicable and disgusting, and then he dies.

[19:40] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[19:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: And like, oh, I'm just like, are they mad at him? Because I I could also see and I have, you know, seen patients who have parents like this and then they die in the middle of a conflict. A lot of times the children are so mad at their parent, they're like, okay, and now you die on me when this is happening. This is just like this is track. I don't know. It was so intense. I thought medically, their depiction of I think it was a pulmonary embolism that he died from makes sense. That happens so quickly, it can be fatal so fast. So that depiction made sense. I can't even imagine. I kept thinking of, like, the flight attendants doing CPR for hours and hours and hours right. Because I think that you have to until you land, and that's so traumatizing for them. And then like, the team, Carolina, Hugo, all in the back room, like, let's just start the press release.

[20:38] Portia Pendleton: But it's like, that's who should be doing that, you know what I mean? Yes, they have a relationship, they have a friendship, whatever you want to call it, with Logan. But I think that feels appropriate. Carl and Frank, they're all taken off guard and upset and they kind of can pivot because they're not his kids. Right.

[20:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: And in some ways, that is the best way to honor Logan is to get your ducks in a row, you know what I mean? As you were saying that, I just had a flashback, too. Was it that flight or another flight where Carl and Frank were putting on their compression stockings?

[21:15] Portia Pendleton: Oh, I don't remember that at all.

[21:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's like a really interesting now you think about, like, foreshadowing, because that's often how you get a pulmonary embolism is you have a clot in one of your deep leg veins and it travels up, unfortunately. And a pulmonary embolism is basically a blood clot in your lung vasculature that leads you to stop breathing. Just wish Logan would have put on some compression socks, especially with his history of stroke and all these things, but just interesting. I bet they'll all wear them now. Yeah, I will.

[21:43] Portia Pendleton: I know. Now I'm like another thing to be anxious about while I fly.

[21:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: When I was an intern, like on my medicine rotations, I was always so anxious about a PE. That is like, the thing that can happen when you're really sick and all this. I was always so anxious that people were going to have PE's, and one time I caught one, so that's good for me. Yeah, but like, God, I lived, like, in such a state of hyper vigilance, like checking people's pressures, checking people's heart rates, checking their breathing, check at this, making a move and squeeze your leg muscles if you can't walk around. Like, it's just so scary.

[22:20] Portia Pendleton: So then we see him at the funeral. So we see him and, you know, we're going to talk about Roman more, but, like, we see him taking over for Roman because Roman cannot go through with the speech.

[22:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of course he cannot.

[22:33] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[22:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: He should. You should.

[22:34] Portia Pendleton: Like, he pregrieved. He pregrieved. So he's fine. Roman's fine.

[22:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: And also, I get that people try to pre grieve. You wish you could grieve before it happens so it won't hurt so bad. It just does. Yeah, I see that a lot. Especially when people have family members with, like, a neurodegenerative illness or something like that. Yeah. I feel like Roman just displayed, like, all five classic stages of grief. Denial, anger, sadness, bargaining, acceptance. So well, yeah, he really went through the different ones. And again, it's not like a linear thing. You can bounce around and feel things at the same time. But he really displayed that so well. And again, it was like he was really hoping this was going to be his moment to shine. He's going to give the eulogy and then he just can't. And did it break your heart?

[23:22] Portia Pendleton: Yes.

[23:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: When no one went to comfort him? Yeah. Those four women in the freaking front row. Your own mother does not go up to Jerry, doesn't go to give him a hug.

[23:33] Portia Pendleton: I think he was really feeling the loss of Jerry, not being comforting, but he had just I was going to.

[23:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Say this fired her. But still, I mean, again, it's like, that's who Jerry is, who she is. Right.

[23:51] Portia Pendleton: But also, like a lesson in some way. If we look at it really black and white, if you do something horrible to me, we're done. It's a really clear boundary. Like, you just fired me and we had an inappropriate relationship, but I'm not going to do that. And his expectation, I think all of their expectations because they haven't had solid, secure attachments are so skewed. But it's like if you hurt someone and if that person is healthy, they will put up a boundary, right? So you can't hurt them again.

[24:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, that's normal, right? And again, it's like, the mom really should have been the one to 100%, right? And she just sits there. Just sits there. And then you think is like, maybe quote unquote, comforting them by inviting them to her Caribbean villa or whatever. And then it's like a sales pitch, of course, for her husband.

[24:43] Portia Pendleton: Don't eat his cheese.

[24:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, don't eat his cheese. We have no food in this house. Here's the frozen knobbies I keep. And I was like, this track. This woman doesn't eat despite all of her money and access. Of course she doesn't. And even you know that Shiv's pregnant and you still don't have any food.

[25:03] Portia Pendleton: You have your knobby ends.

[25:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Knobby ends that freezer. And it's like, you know what? That's what she's done to these kids their whole life. Just tossed her frozen knobby ends at them and said, that's all you get. That's good. Yeah, that's a good picture.

[25:17] Portia Pendleton: Even there in this silly little moment is so deep. We could analyze that for a while, right?

[25:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, they all bond and are aligned because they're feeling something toward their mom in that moment. Right? And like, that scene with them making the meal fit for a king and just how silly and playful. I loved it so much, and I did really feel like this might be it. They might get it together. And then I was like, why did I think that? Why was I optimistic?

[25:49] Portia Pendleton: They just can't.

[25:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: They can't.

[25:51] Portia Pendleton: So then we see, ironically, at the funeral. So Kendall then takes over. He does, I thought, a well job on the fly, and he responds to Ewan information. Ewan, I thought, was interesting because some of the things that he was saying really humanized Logan.

[26:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: His whole backstory. It was like, finally we learned about Rose and this oppressive guilt that Logan carried with him that it was, like, his fault. Even though finally we got some backstory. And even you and going up to the podium was like, I can't believe my own family would prevent me from speaking at my brother's funeral. Because you're worried about the stock price or whatever. And it's like they would yeah, they're trying.

[26:34] Portia Pendleton: And you could see them all. They're like, motioning to Greg to try to pull him back. And it's like, also, what are you tackle you and Logan's brother as he's going up? First of all, in front of, like, press.

[26:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what I'm going to say. As if no one can see you guys, like, finagling, and you just look like idiots.

[26:51] Portia Pendleton: It's like, oh, my gosh. And then I thought Shiv's words were pretty sweet. That was nice that she was able to do it. I don't have a strong memory of it, but what I do remember is that Connor didn't say anything. And I was like, how fitting.

[27:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: That is really fitting. I feel like again, though, he had a speech prepared. I didn't remember that. I just forget everything about Connor. And I think that's like, that's how you're supposed to, right? But also, it was so heartbreaking at the karaoke thing, his little bachelor party, when he was able to say to the siblings after Logan storms out, like, well, my superpower is I don't need love. That's your problem, guys, is you want dad's love and approval, and I just don't need it. And I was like, oh, but yeah, that's how he has survived. And we learn about his mom going to a mental institution. And my thoughts are like, did she really need to go? Or did Logan have so much power that he was able to pull those strings? And we see Connor's trauma reaction to the wedding cake, reminding him of the cake he ate when they told him his mom went to the fight, which.

[27:54] Portia Pendleton: They all are joking about.

[27:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's not funny.

[27:56] Portia Pendleton: I mean, they joke about Roman being in the cage. They joke about I mean, it's like these horrible, really, really abusive things that weren't just like, oh, one time I locked my brother in the dog crate, like lol, and then I opened the door. No, he was in there for hours. This happened multiple times.

[28:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that's disgusting. But also, humor is a more mature defense mechanism right, than a lot of.

[28:19] Portia Pendleton: The naming how horrible everything was. It's like they can't even go there.

[28:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, they can't. Right? They would just be psychologically annihilated. How can you it's totally not safe, right? Totally not safe. I hope that they eventually could if they get into some good quality therapy. I think the only one who maybe ever would would maybe be Roman. And I hope Carrie I hope Carrie, the latest mistress, is able to get into some good quality therapy and heal again. She had a very humanistic, normal reaction to being on the plane with Logan and then trying to grieve.

[28:57] Portia Pendleton: Right, I forgot she was on the plane.

[28:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, and trying to grieve and also deal with the shame and sort of like public view of her as the mistress. And they threw her out of his apartment when she came to get some of her stuff. And it's just sick. Super sick.

[29:14] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So we see kind of Kendall Shiv and Roman bond again, I'd say, like immediately after the funeral, at the funeral, and then we see them all kind of starting to have their wheels turning about what we're doing. They go on that trip to see Matson at that retreat, and again, they.

[29:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Screw themselves, right, because Roman loses his cool and lets it out that they're not going to actually sell to him. Again, if they could have just kept it in, right, maybe they could have gotten the right amount of votes or whatever to thwart the deal. But again, it's like, I think he said what it was, like, three days after died. I feel like season four took place in, like, a seven to ten day period. And of course, they're not functioning at their best. They have so many raw emotions that and maybe Matson could sniff that out, because he is a total narcissist in his own raging way.

[30:13] Portia Pendleton: And I think he's very eccentric, very egotistical, but also, like, that woman blood. And she was like, maybe just don't do that.

[30:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Don't send, like, your biological fluid. That's also just so weird. Porsche, what did you make of that? What is the point? What do you think she wants with your blood?

[30:34] Portia Pendleton: Maybe he was like, I don't know. It's like a part of him. It was a process to give he's so rich, he can give her whatever, but it's like, no, I'm going to give you my blood. That's so much more intense than, like, oh, I'm giving you a bracelet. But it's like, I'd rather have the bracelet. And it seems like Ebba Too would rather have the bracelet.

[30:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe she could make a bracelet out of his blood.

[30:56] Portia Pendleton: She could make a little necklace.

[30:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: She can also hold onto it for a major lawsuit in the future, which maybe you should have thought about. But creepy. That's like serial killer level creepy, right? You call the police when someone's, like, sending you their blood.

[31:13] Portia Pendleton: That is wild to me. Matson is, like, so smart. He's too smart where it's like he is detached from the real world reality, what it's like to be a human. I think he's just brilliant. He created this code.

[31:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought at some point in there, they said he actually didn't. It was these other people, and he's taking the credit.

[31:36] Portia Pendleton: Well, maybe he's smart enough to do that.

[31:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe smart enough to do that.

[31:39] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[31:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: So we see Matson Alexander Scarsgard again. I always love to see him, and he's great, even if he's sending people his own blood, which tracks he is.

[31:49] Portia Pendleton: A vampire and true blood.

[31:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: There you go. Totally tracks. And I always imagined it as, like, a huge IV bag full of blood, but maybe it's like a vial.

[31:58] Portia Pendleton: I think it was frozen, and I think I don't know why.

[32:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Multiple times. Just so bizarre, so weird, and also so dumb. Okay, we don't have to keep talking about the blood. So we see again, Roman, and really, Roman get in his own way by revealing their evil plot to Matson, who now knows the evil plot and can take steps to continue to win in the situation. I feel like Matson probably was getting a sense of something going awry and was like, knows what to say to sort of provoke people to figure out their real motives. Like, we see that with him and Tom Too.

[32:41] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[32:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And what a creepy superpower to have.

[32:46] Portia Pendleton: And I think he poked Roman in a way that he saw roman being impulsive unstable again. I mean, your dad just died three days ago.

[32:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: But of the two, Roman 100%.

[32:57] Portia Pendleton: And Kendall is, like, backdooring still. Everything at that time. He's talking to Hugo, he's trying to put out some numbers that then Shiv and everyone's really ****** about how that got out. And then he says whatever matson says whatever makes sense to Shiv to get Shiv on his side.

[33:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And she takes that bit because she always does. Again, she gets in her way. Oh, and it drives me nuts. It drives me so nuts again, because I feel like at the beginning of the show, I thought she was the smart one who just wasn't getting her comeuppance because she's a girl. And then the more we've seen of her, I feel like she's just so annoying. I love the character, don't get me.

[33:37] Portia Pendleton: Wrong, but I think they had to have written that because there were points in the last episode of season four that when she's talking to Matson that I was like, you are so annoying right now. And Matson was annoyed and I think we were supposed to feel that.

[33:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? And that's why, again, this is how Shiv gets in her own way.

[33:55] Portia Pendleton: She was annoying with her dad in that episode when he yells at her before the big board meeting or shareholder meeting. He yelled at her and was like, you're stop. And again, she was, to me, like, grating in my ear.

[34:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: She has this obsessive reassurance seeking, which of course, she has that based on her life and how you can't trust anyone and people always screw you over. But she hasn't figured out that by continuing to do that, you push these people away at your own detriment. Right. So she just thinks that she's so suave and such a good communicator that she'll be the one to go in and smooth things over and figure it out, even when she was in the company now and sitting in on the meetings. And it's just like everyone thinks you're a joke. And it's so sad that she can't see that. Right?

[34:50] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And I think her reaction on the phone to her and Tom are not speaking. They're actively trying to get divorced.

[34:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: He gets all the lawyers based on Logan's advice.

[35:02] Portia Pendleton: And then he's the one who's, like, telling her to say goodbye to her dad, even. That was really, I'm sure, obviously hard for her, besides the fact that she had to say goodbye to her dad. But it's like, Tom is the one who's telling you. I mean, maybe on one hand it was, like, comforting because there's still maybe a little bit of feelings there. I don't know, I just can't imagine that. And then she kind of went a little bit childlike, like, Daddy, please don't die. Same with Roman. Roman became more childlike.

[35:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: That is what happens. Like, you regress in times of such intense emotional trauma. Right. And I think she was like, that's him there in the coffin. But all that is so true. Grief is just such a mindfuck that a lot of times you are in such extreme denial. Yeah. What did you think about the scene between Shiv and Tom at their fancy apartment the night before the election?

[35:55] Portia Pendleton: That was a big fight, I think. It was like they had so much hurt at that point, in pain, and had hurt each other so specifically, wildly up until that moment. And it was like, this has to happen. When is it going to happen? I thought Tom again, just because I still like Tom, he's, like, telling everyone how bad he needs sleep.

[36:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[36:19] Portia Pendleton: He's, like, preparing. His face has to be up. He's, like, so obsessed with I loved.

[36:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: When he came in and he was like, all right, party's over, everyone go home. And I'm like, that's always how I want to end the party. Just be like, okay, please leave. I don't know if you ever see it online. Like, those memes with party decorations. That's like a big banner that's like, welcome to the party. Please leave by eight. Yes, that's true.

[36:42] Portia Pendleton: And if you don't, I will ask you to ask you, and then it's awkward and weird. Yeah. So some of the things that they said were obviously so horrible and hurtful, but, like, true. Like, really? I don't know hard truths because it's finally horrible, people. But, like, you guys needed to say.

[36:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: That, and this is how you really feel about each other. It was so big and explosive and disgusting, but also authentic and true. And they were both so angry and betrayed by each other. And that's when she told him that she's pregnant. Right.

[37:15] Portia Pendleton: And he was like, Is that even true?

[37:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Which I could see why action. Also, like, the way she brought it up, it does seem provocative and manipulative. And at that point, I wasn't sure if she still was, because we saw earlier on. I will make a note that Shiv calls the doctor by her first name.

[37:31] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Which I'm not surprised about.

[37:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[37:34] Portia Pendleton: It was probably a personal doctor.

[37:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: But also, I feel like people with narcissistic traits don't respect sort of professional boundaries or I can't imagine Shiv giving that professional deference to someone else. Right. They don't. They just call you first name.

[37:53] Portia Pendleton: That tracks. Even when they were trying to get Logan into better care earlier, earlier when he did not die, they were all just like, we need the best of the best. And I think even if they still.

[38:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Would have, even when he was dying on the plane, they were like, we need to get this one on the line. He needs to go here. And it's like, guys, but so we learned she's pregnant, that there was some sort of testing to be done that showed everything was okay. But then we see her drinking throughout the season, and I wasn't sure if she was still pregnant and drinking, which, again, I could see her doing, or if she'd had an abortion. And I wasn't sure how it was all going to shake out. And then I mean, my God. What do you think about Shiv being a mom?

[38:36] Portia Pendleton: Well, having watched all of the season, I think she is the new Caroline and she's going to do exactly what Caroline did to her. I think she's going to be cold and kind of detached.

[38:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: She already is. She's already talked about all the nannies and she's never going to see the kid. And on the one hand, I was like, is she just saying that to Matson? So she gets to be the American CEO, but I don't think so. I think that's all she knows.

[39:01] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[39:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Awful. And I kind of like that we didn't find out if she's having a girl or a boy. What do you think?

[39:08] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think both are screwed. Yeah, I think girl, that would be worse in my.

[39:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, now, by sort of maneuvering the way she did at the very end, she has sort of maintained the closest tie to the power right. By staying with Tom and that flaccid handshake.

[39:34] Portia Pendleton: I know that was like iconic.

[39:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: So iconic and uncomfortable and perfect. But she's staying with him. It seems they're going to have the baby, but I still feel like it's going to be a girl. And so still not really quite the heir, as you would think, right? Like, if she had the son who was like the bloodline, as Roman was saying. This all starts to remind me of.

[39:59] Portia Pendleton: The British royal family, too.

[40:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was kind of like as I watched the show, I also read Prince Harry's memoir, sort of at the same time, and I was like, is this what their life is like?

[40:10] Portia Pendleton: There's definitely parallels, right?

[40:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[40:13] Portia Pendleton: Rules, expectations, pressure, public eye out for yourself.

[40:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's just so weird.

[40:20] Portia Pendleton: Distrust, probably betrayals along the lines. So, yeah, no, that makes sense. But I felt sorry for Shiv and really kind of aligned with her when she was at that board meeting, finally kind of giving the vote because I think she's so on the one hand, she knew that Tom was going to get it and I think knew that she would be closer to power if Tom did. But I think really, on the other hand, she doesn't think like, she said that Kendall can do it, right? Yes, 100%. Like, even his reaction, I mean, that just then proved and that's what she left and then just did the vote.

[41:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Even when they were like, you killed someone and he was like, well, no.

[41:06] Portia Pendleton: It sounded like he had killed more than one.

[41:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, right. It did. It left their room open, like with.

[41:11] Portia Pendleton: And that's what Roman was like, what do you mean? Multiples or others or plural when you said that?

[41:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then when he is like, well, no, that's a misunderstanding. That didn't actually happen. It was like, dude, again, two seasons ago, or whatever, that was when you all bonded again over this.

[41:30] Portia Pendleton: And so both would have been hurtful.

[41:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[41:32] Portia Pendleton: Like, on the one hand, if that was a move and you lied, which they were like, which one is it? Or that you have killed someone and potentially others. I think he kind of drove himself.

[41:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Into the and he did make the decision about menken in the election.

[41:49] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[41:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: So, again, there's just these character, like, this is him, this is who he is. And he makes these bad decisions impulsively based on really intense emotions. Which totally makes sense, right? Because we know that people with different personality disorders under stress. That gets bigger, as it does for all of us. Like, if you have an anxiety disorder and you're under stress, your anxiety goes up. If you struggle with depression and you're under stress, that can be a timeous trigger. This tracks. But you see that with Kendall in such a destructive way, like also Roman, but with Roman it's more masochistic, where it's like self destructive. Like when he goes into the protesting or he gets hit by someone, or he seeks out love from Jerry only to be rejected, it's always he's the one getting hurt, but Kendall hurts. Like, people have died and then the whole country is now at risk. Your own children are at risk. Right.

[42:48] Portia Pendleton: He seems the least self aware. Yes, I think they all have self awareness issues, but I think he seems like the most he has no responsibility.

[43:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have no awareness he has any self awareness. I feel like zero.

[43:07] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[43:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think he does even like his whole big birthday party.

[43:11] Portia Pendleton: No, 100%.

[43:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think Roman, interestingly, has the most self awareness of the kids. Maybe Connor. Maybe Connor wins that. Then Roman, then Shiv, then Kendall. Right? Is how I would rank them.

[43:33] Portia Pendleton: So we see Kendall, though, like, he's just not self aware about anything. He he gets so wounded so quickly, and then he reacts. And it's just like that impulsiveness to have this huge reaction and change everything with Rava.

[43:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. The kids. And as you were saying that, it reminded me of like back in season one or two, where he stole the batteries. That's like a perfect example of like in the vapes. Yeah. He's just having such big feelings. I think he'd felt really rejected by his dad and was angry. And so he's like, I'm going to steal this. He doesn't need to, but he does. So that's like a little way. And then there's these huge ways, and we really do see that with the way he abuses Rava and his assistant Jess, and then his new assistant he calls new Jess. But that scene with Rava trying to leave with the kids was so chilling to me, and also, again, just like spot on. And it really shows you, like, I bet there's been a lot of domestic violence like this in their relationship. And it's a miracle that she's able to leave him at all, right? Because, like, someone with his power and money and access to lawyers and blah, blah, blah. That's so freaking scary.

[44:45] Portia Pendleton: Self awareness. Like, should my kids be with Nannies 24/7, or maybe with their mom and me sometime?

[44:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know what I mean? What's best for your kids?

[44:55] Portia Pendleton: It doesn't matter because it's not about them, it's about him.

[44:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: And even hearing about like in season three, right, where the daughter was scared, so he hires someone to track them.

[45:02] Portia Pendleton: That's not how you and then doesn't tell them that. And that's what they're being followed.

[45:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's not how you handle it. And then even all of that happening, we come to learn. Maybe some people picked this up earlier. I did, until Roman really says it at the end in that big fight that his daughter's adopted and then that his son maybe isn't biologically his, we're not really sure. But then the whole thing with the election just really, to me, epitomized his character. Again, Roman doesn't care about anything, so of course he's like, let's do Minkin, because then we can squash this Gojo deal. And again, none of them are smart enough to see that Minkin is also out for himself and using you. You can't trust that he's going to come through. Why would you? But they always do. They have this thread of trust that.

[45:49] Portia Pendleton: Always similar with Jerry. I see Jerry and Roman and then Roman and Menken is connecting with Roman on some level that makes Roman feel attached and into him and blind, can see nothing wrong.

[46:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, Menken probably knows that. Just like Matson.

[46:08] Portia Pendleton: Yes.

[46:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. That this is the weak link. That's why he goes for that rather than Kendall. It's just so classic. But and again, it's just like I think it also just speaks to how it's just human nature to want to be able to trust and to try to attach to something anyone around you, I think, especially when you've had such disrupted early attachments like they've had, that you don't know how to tease apart. What are early characteristics of a trustworthy person?

[46:41] Portia Pendleton: They have no idea because they don't have really anyone in their life.

[46:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: No idea. And so the people that they feel most comfortable with are going to be people who are just like their parents, who are going to screw them over. And it happened again. But also, I wasn't surprised with Roman in the election. I was with Kendall. I really thought he might not do it. And then I really thought Greg might pause long enough to keep it from happening. And they all did it. They just went for it.

[47:10] Portia Pendleton: Porsche and so that that scene or that episode about the election was so chilling. Well, I guess this does affect people's mental health, but, like, I thought it was just such a testament to, you know, what many I wouldn't call them conspiracy theorists, but people believe like, does happen. Like, I do think it kind of there's powerful people who control, you know, who gets elected, so on and so forth. These news people calling it the news stations, though I was and maybe this is true or not. I feel like that is something that I never thought of, how important networks are in calling states for different right. Politicians. Exactly.

[47:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, wow, this is.

[47:57] Portia Pendleton: Interesting, just on, like, a factual side. But I thought it was so chilling. I think there were absolute parallels right. To reality and people's fears with the.

[48:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Balances catching on fire. And they're like, well, there's nothing precedented for this. Let's call it for mango. Oh, my God.

[48:17] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[48:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was eerily. I'm afraid to say accurate because I don't know if that's actually true. Right. I'd like to think this doesn't really happen, but it definitely made you go, yeah.

[48:28] Portia Pendleton: And Romans just like he said, to shift something like, well, it doesn't matter. Nothing's going to happen. And she was like, Things do happen, Roman.

[48:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Roman, things do matter.

[48:38] Portia Pendleton: And then you see kind of the next episodes with all the protest, right? That's why Rava is afraid to take the kids to the funeral, because there's a lot of protesters and a lot of people don't like the Roys because of ATN and so on and so forth. So it's like, that all kind of came to be because of the election. And then Roman running in the streets, which is so interesting. He seeks them out. He's fighting with them. He's egging them on.

[49:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he was I also pushed that as like, he's so angry that his dad died and then this happened, and he's just so full of rage, and he just climbs over the hurdle and gets in it. And I was like, Are they famous enough in society for those protesters to know that's Roman Roy and ATN just called it? Would they know that? Or is it like, if I saw a Murdoch on the street, I wouldn't.

[49:29] Portia Pendleton: Know who they were?

[49:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know what I mean?

[49:31] Portia Pendleton: His suit, right? It was perfect.

[49:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then how he's getting totally pummeled and then trampled over, and I was like, this is Roman. This is him. And then again with Kendall. This is Kendall. This is who Kendall is. And his character, his authentic character with not being able to I just can't fathom it, Portia, that this election is already affecting his family, his children. And even knowing that he still can't put that in front of sticking it to **** after he hears what she's doing in order to get what he needs, he still can't appreciate how terrified his family is, where they wouldn't go, the funeral, where he's only thinking, what's the world going to think if my family's not there? And I'm about to ascend to power. It's just so sick.

[50:28] Portia Pendleton: Right. And another reason why he can't he is trying so hard to be Logan, and he is not.

[50:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: That that's a good thing.

[50:38] Portia Pendleton: Right. If he could go to therapy and.

[50:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Realize that's a good thing, let's harness those parts of you that aren't like him and just stop trying, Kendall, and take your bazillion dollars. Take, like, two years off. Get really good therapy, get sober, and then get into music. Do what you want, Randall.

[50:59] Portia Pendleton: Be a rapper.

[51:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[51:01] Portia Pendleton: It was really hard to watch. I think at the end, I felt sorry for Kendall, but I was kind of, like, done with him until he.

[51:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again is, like, walking toward the water. And once again, we're thinking, will he or won't he?

[51:14] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[51:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Will he or won't he? And then the bodyguards, like, lurking in the back, because I think he knows what's about to happen. I think a lot of people think he did. I mean, I kind of think he did. Like, after it cut to black, it remind me of kind of like The Sopranos, where it cuts to black, but if not, then I feel like.

[51:34] Portia Pendleton: Without help or without some shift, we see kind of like an overdose. Accidental, maybe more intentional or something with water, which he seems to really like.

[51:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, he's like the theme of water in Kendall throughout the whole show has been so interesting. Right. And I'm sure that's intentional.

[51:55] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. The pool and then him kind of walking out, even when they were at.

[52:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: The Mom's Island, and he's, like, swimming out to the raft, and they're thinking about murdering him. It's in the middle of water. Drowning with the waiter at his wedding within water. Then he takes that bath. Like, there's something about water. It's like, maybe Kendall, take some time off, get some therapy, and then become a swim instructor.

[52:21] Portia Pendleton: Do something with water.

[52:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do something with water. Like aqua therapy or help other people in the water. But he's not he can't possibly.

[52:32] Portia Pendleton: And then so we wanted to briefly talk a little bit about Tom and Greg.

[52:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then I decided I also want to give Willa a little do, because, God, I love Willa. But yeah. Tom and Greg, the disgusting brothers. How did you feel when Tom put that purple sticker?

[52:49] Portia Pendleton: Oh, my gosh.

[52:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Forehead.

[52:51] Portia Pendleton: I really liked it.

[52:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: I almost cried.

[52:55] Portia Pendleton: I want you first of all, that he kept the stickers right from he just happened to have it, and then he put it right on his head. And I really like Tom in Tom and Greg. Me too. Greg is like greg was just, like, bothersome to me. I thought he was so irritating within the funeral. Like, he was dynamic and the grief and being sorry and trying to hug them, and they were like, Greg, get out. Like, you're so annoying. Like, you don't care. It's so clear that you're trying to attach yourself to someone.

[53:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. But again, it's like, that tracks for him. Oh, yeah. I kept hoping that Greg was going to be kind of normal and might save the day, especially with the election, when he was like, It's my job. He was talking to that girl that I think he was kind of seeing, but, no, he just falls right in line. He wants the power, too. And again, it was like that sticker scene with Tom and Greg was so endearing, but also not right, because I think Tom is like, I need Greg.

[53:57] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[53:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Tom needs someone to beat up on the way he's beat up on metaphorically by everyone around him. He needs someone to quite physically beat up on when he gets upset. Right. And that's the purpose Greg serves. So then it's kind of icky.

[54:12] Portia Pendleton: I felt like Greg evened the power dynamic a little bit by slapping Tom back in the bathroom. I think if Tom had just done it, it would have felt like obviously, but worse. But by Greg kind of coming back, it was then more just like a slap fight. And maybe Tom likes I think so he's proud of him, right, when he backstabs someone or when he's, like, blackmailing people. So I think he was happy to see that reaction.

[54:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And that way it's weird because you might think that Tom wants someone below him who's just like Tom, who he can just totally abuse and manipulate and.

[54:52] Portia Pendleton: Will do whatever he says.

[54:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Greg isn't quite like that. Like, Greg held onto the documents. He slaps him back. He has backstabbed him and stuff. And Tom kind of likes that. Just like in Shiv, actually, if you think about it, tom's, like, attracted to that. And in that way, Tom kind of reminds me of Roman and being attracted to these people who serve a purpose and hurt you. Yeah.

[55:16] Portia Pendleton: He gave an interview, Matthew, and he was talking about some of just the voice tones. And when he is talking to Greg, there's like a lot of pauses. It's more blunted or loud.

[55:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then when he's talking to Shiv, he gets a little bit of a high pitched voice. And he said that was out of, like, fear. Oh, this is so interesting. I want to watch that interview. That is so fascinating. Because Shiv has the power until now, right? Yeah. God, what a fascinating character. I want to see what happens with Tom and Greg. I would like a snap of them. Also, I just thought it was so interesting to me how Greg was so tall. I think I looked it up and he's 6ft, seven inches, so he's way tall. And just the whole dynamic of him being this random cousin with no power, he's trying to warm his way in, but he has this height and this stature and how that just lends him to having this power in the room that other people blow him. Don't have. It's just fascinating.

[56:16] Portia Pendleton: It's like he's hard to miss.

[56:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[56:18] Portia Pendleton: Always kind of notice.

[56:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Exactly. And then Willa, God bless Willa, she's going to live in Logan's big house with her cow print couch all by herself because she's found a way for Connor to be some ambassador somewhere or something.

[56:36] Portia Pendleton: Slovenia.

[56:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or even if that doesn't pan out, which it probably won't, let's be honest, she'll find a way for him to go back to Montana or something, and she's just going to live it up.

[56:48] Portia Pendleton: Willa and Greg are clever and in different ways.

[56:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[56:56] Portia Pendleton: I think they're both good at getting their needs met. I think they have different personalities and stuff like that. But I think they know how to play the game, know how to ultimately get what they want. I think I see Willa as a little bit more likable than Greg. Maybe some people feel the other way around, but I just think it's interesting.

[57:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. This show, man, what a great show. I'm really going to miss it. I'm really sad it's over, but I also feel like this is the ending. Yeah. This feels like, okay, this is the ending.

[57:29] Portia Pendleton: Roman we both have the most hope.

[57:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: For getting into therapy.

[57:33] Portia Pendleton: He's having a martini, which we think could be related to as a cheers to Jerry or Shiv.

[57:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[57:41] Portia Pendleton: And he's out.

[57:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: He looked like, peaceful and content. I don't think he'll get therapy. I don't think he'll get DBT or anything.

[57:51] Portia Pendleton: But maybe he'll stumble across on his world journeys.

[57:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or sucked into a cult.

[57:58] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I was going to say, which is funny. Or joined some wellness center, which is also known as sometimes they're a little culty.

[58:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[58:09] Portia Pendleton: But I could see that him kind of accidentally stumbling into something that's actually helpful. Shiv, she is. I have attached to ATN and Royco.

[58:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like she is just going to live such an empty, sad life and she doesn't have to. Right? Like, she could make different decisions and really learn to heal and do some attachment parenting with her child. The wealth, you know what I mean? But it's not about the money. Exactly. The money is not the thing for them. It's the power. And like, the getting one over.

[58:46] Portia Pendleton: And then Jeremy Strong talked about an alternative ending where he felt compelled because he's a method actor, as we've talked about, to almost act a scene where he kills himself. So he's, like, climbing over the edge and he gets stopped by someone else on set.

[59:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it was the bodyguard. Yeah, I could totally see that happening. Or, like we said, an overdose in the next year or two, whether intentional or not. I don't know if he'll ever see his kids again after that whole thing. I kind of hope not. That scene made me so uncomfortable. Or he's, like literally getting in the way of the car and the kids are watching all of this. You're just. Like, if this is what you're doing in broad daylight in front of people, what did you do to this family in the privacy of your home? Makes me scared. Yeah. And Connor, I think he'll be okay. Yeah.

[59:40] Portia Pendleton: He'll either be a diplomat somewhere no, that will happen.

[59:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: He will be go back to his.

[59:45] Portia Pendleton: Little ranch in the middle of nowhere, conserving water and having a little empire. I think Carl and Frank, as they kind of giggled to each other, what do you think? Do you want to stick around? And they were both like, maybe so I don't know if they can detach themselves.

[01:00:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know if Tom will keep him around, though.

[01:00:05] Portia Pendleton: He said that? No, he said goodbye, but I thought that was funny how it's like you guys have been trying to get this golden parachute forever and yet you're thinking.

[01:00:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: About staying for till I all of you just like, go on your merry way. It's wild.

[01:00:20] Portia Pendleton: The power of power. So stick around. We will be covering more Max shows, hopefully that have also good intro music as well.

[01:00:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: White Lotus is coming. Exactly.

[01:00:32] Portia Pendleton: Euphoria.

[01:00:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Speaking of cults, we're going to be talking about Yellow Jacket season two in the next couple of weeks. Yeah. And find us on Instagram at Analyze scripts. We're on TikTok now at Analyze Scripts podcast, and please don't forget to rate, review, subscribe and share with your friends near and far.

[01:00:50] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, thanks for listening.

[01:00:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: All right, see you next Monday.

[01:00:53] Portia Pendleton: Bye.

[01:00:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Our channel.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are thrilled to be joined by Dr. Tobias Wasser, a forensic psychiatrist from Yale University, in analyzing the 2010 film "Shutter Island." Dr. Wasser explains how forensic psychiatry bridges the gap between the criminal justice and mental health care systems. He describes what it's really like to work on a forensic psychiatry unit and compares his experience to that depicted in the film. We also ask him to explain the difference between competency to stand trial and the NGRI (not guilty by reason of insanity) plea. He also shares his opinions about our favorite narcissistic psychopaths - Joe Goldberg, Logan Roy, and Tom Wambsgans. We learned a ton and hope you enjoy!

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[00:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Our channel.

[00:10] Portia Pendleton: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend. There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts. And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM Five and enjoy. Welcome back to Analyze scripts. Portia and I are super excited to be joined today by Dr. Tobias Wasser, who is an associate professor of psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine. He completed all of his psychiatry training at Yale, including the psychiatry Residency program and two fellowships in forensic psychiatry and public psychiatry. He currently serves as the Deputy medical Director for Community and Forensic Psychiatry for Yale New Haven Hospital and the Assistant Chair for Program development in the Yale Psychiatry department. He's previously held leadership roles in Yale psychiatry residency program and for five years served as the chief medical officer of Connecticut's State Forensic Hospital. And most importantly, he was my chief resident for a whole day at the very beginning of my intern year. So welcome, Tobias. Thank you so much for coming and joining us today.

[01:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, thank you so much for having me.

[01:49] Portia Pendleton: So interestingly. I'm sure you don't remember this, Tobias, but I remember my very first day of psychiatry residency. I was on the inpatient psych unit. You were observing me do, I think, like, my very first interview as a resident, and I was interviewing a patient with a psychotic disorder. I don't think I'd ever really interviewed someone with one of those before. And afterwards you told me something that has stuck with me ever since, and I think is really pertinent to this movie you were telling me. And you were so nice in the way that you would tell me this criticism, but it's very kind. You were saying, you did a great job, but when you're listening to someone talk about their delusions, try really hard not to nod as they're talking. It's like a very natural thing to do. But if you're nodding, you're kind of confirming for them, like, yeah, this is true. This is true. What a perfect sort of clinical pearl to think about as we talk about Shutter Island today, right?

[02:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, you're right that I don't totally remember saying that to you, but I guess maybe it'll make you feel better to know you're not the only individual to whom I've given that feedback.

[03:05] Portia Pendleton: Good.

[03:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: It is a common aspect of people learning how to practice psychiatry and mental health. So as you said, I think it's a natural reaction. So clearly it helped you.

[03:17] Portia Pendleton: I'm glad it's but I just like that sort of popped in my mind as I rewatched the movie today, knowing you join us because in this movie, they do this whole weird experiment, right? And so I think before we dive in and really pick your brain on what it's like to be a forensic psychiatrist and what you think about this movie, portia is going to give us just a really quick rundown of the plot.

[03:43] Dr. Tobias Wasser: So the movie came out in 2013 by Martin Scorsese, all star cast, all star director. We have Teddy Daniels, who is played by Leonardo DiCaprio. And then we have Chuck, played by Mark Rafalo. And so we see these two people kind of heading to this island where there's apparently this mental institution where the criminally insane are being held. And it opens up with vomiting, which we talk about this a lot.

[04:12] Portia Pendleton: I was like, great, portia hates vomiting.

[04:16] Dr. Tobias Wasser: And so they are going to kind of investigate someone who's missing.

[04:20] Portia Pendleton: And they are state marshals.

[04:23] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Yes, marshals. And so you kind of see them exploring the island. It looks really scary. And there's a few different kind of living arrangements, it seems like. One where more, I would say, like, peaceful patients are housed. And then another one that feels really gross and dirty and more jail like. And the movie does take place in 1954. So it's like post World War II, which I think is interesting with the differences in how we treat mental health. So we kind of see them investigating this crime or this person who's missing, as we have some questions of Teddy's mental status. So he has these migraines. There's some flashbacks to his time during World War II at some concentration camps. Really, really traumatic, it seems like some experiences that he's had. And then also these kind of flashbacks to this family, but then to this other wife without kids. And it's confusing. So I was kind of confused watching it at first. And then we see him kind of continuing to investigate and believe that there are these inhumane trials going on or.

[05:41] Portia Pendleton: Clinical trials or like experimentation, almost experimentations.

[05:46] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Kind of going on that we see, and he doesn't find any. And so the movie kind of arcs all of a sudden to where I initially thought, so this was the first time that I saw it, that he was being kind of like, pushed into insanity, quote, unquote. He was being given some medications. All of a sudden there's this part where it's like, well, have you been eating the food? Have you been taking medications from them? Have you been smoking your own cigarettes? And he starts to kind of feel.

[06:14] Portia Pendleton: Like he was poisoned or something.

[06:15] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Yeah. And so then all of a sudden, we find out that he is the test subject of this really immersive. I don't want to say well done, but well done.

[06:30] Portia Pendleton: Well executed.

[06:31] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Maybe set up for him in order to help his psychosis or delusions in order to kind of have him kind.

[06:40] Portia Pendleton: Of come back, snap out of it.

[06:41] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Which is his wife killed his three children and then he killed her.

[06:46] Portia Pendleton: And so he is actually a patient.

[06:48] Dr. Tobias Wasser: To make someone potentially have a psychotic break or experience some psychosis. So I will say that I'm probably going to take a little bit of a backseat to this episode. I think the only experience I have with psychosis is, like, drug induced. So it's not my poor kid. I don't think I've ever interviewed or come across a patient with non drug induced psychosis. So that's kind of the story of the movie. And I think it leaves off with two questions. Did they trick him? And that was a whole trick to kind of get him to stay there, or was he really a patient?

[07:23] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think he was the 67th patient that he was looking for the whole time. And then at the very end, I felt like the whole premise, once you figured out what was going on, was they were trying to restore his sanity once and for all with this elaborate hoax in hopes that he could avoid a lobotomy. Right? And then at the very end, you see him sort of slip back into his delusional way of thinking and go off to get the lobotomy. And I think actually he knew what he was doing. I think he sort of didn't actually slip back into that delusional frame of mind. I think he finally realized what had happened and didn't want to live with it. So it was really fascinating movie. I always love Leonardo DiCaprio, especially with a Boston accent. I'm just like, anytime. But one thing that hit me right away was just like, there's like this big, scary mental hospital in the middle of the ocean where you can't get to and we're going to play this big scary music, and there's rocks everywhere, and there's like, police everywhere. And just like this. It reminded me of Alcatraz in San Francisco, which was just a jail, I believe, not a forensic psych hospital. But I was just like, oh, my God. Just like, yeah. It's like, oh, God.

[08:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[08:39] Portia Pendleton: The mentally we're so scary. It just really right away really knocked you over with that intensity. What did you think, Tobias, about sort of the way they started off.

[08:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So I think you're right about the ending. I saw Capri a really extreme form of denial, almost like choosing an extreme form of denial that once he knew what he had done, he didn't want to live with it anymore, and choosing surgical interventions to try to keep that out of his mind as far as the depiction of what the place looks like. So I definitely think you're right. It played into all of our worst stigmas about psychiatric hospitals. It's criminally insane and this scary island in the middle of nowhere, and that it has to be surrounded by miles and miles of water to prevent anyone from escaping. And I think also, Portia, your point about this is post night. This is in the 1950s, and so it's a very different understanding of what mental illness is at the time in any case. But I'll say as someone who, as Katrina you mentioned in the brief bio, someone who spent many years running a current forensic hospital, it's a very different experience than how it's been depicted in the movie. I think we often imagine these really horrible, scary places. And I will say there are aspects of it that align with my experience. But for the most part, we've come a long way in the 50 years. If that's what it really was like 70 years ago, we've come a long way. But I definitely agree that it was trying to really I think it was trying to immerse the viewer in experience of being terrified. And I think it succeeded in that.

[10:26] Portia Pendleton: Yes, it did. So what parts of it sort of matched with your experience working in a modern day forensic hospital?

[10:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, so I think part of it is what Portia alluded to with this idea that there might be different parts of the hospital. So that continues to be true today. So not all forensic hospitals are like this, but many of them will have what we call different services. So in Connecticut, for example, the hospital that I was a chief medical officer for, for five years, we did have two different services. We had what we called a maximum security service, which was for patients who are at a higher risk for violence or who may have engaged in more violent behavior before they came to the hospital or currently were engaging in unsafe behaviors. And that is more like a synthesis between a typical hospital or typical psychiatric hospital and a correctional setting. At least on the one in Connecticut. The walls are cinder block and in order to get in, you have to go through multiple layers of security and double locking doors. We call a Sally Port, like you're entering a prison facility. So there are layers of security to it that are similar, and the structure is somewhat similar. When you get on the unit, though, it looks more as opposed to in the movie where people are in jail cells and they're locked up, and it really looks like a jail facility. Once you actually get into the physical space where the patients are living, it's more like an inpatient unit. People have bedrooms, they don't have cells, they don't have bars on the doors. They can enter and exit as they wish. There are group rooms in which therapeutic activities occur. There's a shared dining space, there's television. So there are some aspects that are similar, but hopefully it's a little bit more humane when you actually get onto the unit. The one in Connecticut is a much older facility. It was built in 1970. So actually not long after this movie supposedly takes place. And there are a couple of much more modern facilities that have been built, one in Washington, DC. And one in Missouri, that are really picturesque, very aesthetically pleasing. They really focus on things that are supposed to enhance individual recovery, like access to natural light spaces and all those things. So the more modern facilities have really come a long, long way and they look nicer than some typical psychiatric hospitals. Not for forensic patients. And then the other aspect is going to say, so there is a second service, again, even in our own hospital, for safer patients, patients who have engaged in less serious violence, but for some reason have engaged in some kind of behavior that got them involved with the criminal justice system. And they require psychiatric treatment. And those settings, at least in Connecticut, looks much more like a typical hospital that you'd expect. And those patients actually are given grounds privileges. They can walk the ground, sort of like we saw in the movie, that they can walk around.

[13:17] Portia Pendleton: Are they handcuffed like we saw in the movie? People would be like in shackles, walking around, but like their feet shackled up.

[13:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's a great question. So no, they're not modern day because there's been so much emphasis on patients rights and advocacy movements for all patients, not just these kinds of patients. And maybe I should just take a step back to define what does it mean to be a forensic patient. So forensic really refers to in mental health or in psychiatry. It's talking about the intersection of psychiatry and the law. So when we talk about forensic hospitals or forensic patients, sort of like in the movie, they are typically places where individuals who've been found not guilty by reason of insanity. So they've committed a crime. They've pledged what's anecdotally called, colloquially called the insanity defense, meaning that they're saying they're not criminally responsible for their actions because at the time of the crime, they either didn't appreciate that what they were doing was wrong or they couldn't control their behavior because of a mental illness. They're found not guilty by reason of insanity, which is a horrible stigmatizing moniker, but it's still what we call it. And then they're sent for long term psychiatric treatment in a hospital setting.

[14:30] Portia Pendleton: And then is the goal. We just released an episode about the movie side effects. I don't know if you ever saw that movie, it's also an older movie, but in that movie it seemed like the goal was to restore the character who was found not guilty by reason of insanity to sanity, so then she could go back to them, be tried. Does that actually happen?

[14:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, that's a great question. It's kind of mixing two different topics in forensics, like two different populations. So we do have the one group who is what I just described, not guilty by visa and sanity. We have a second group of individuals who are found not competent to stand trial, which similar but is different. So being found not competent to stand trial. So for all of us, if we are accused of a crime, we're all presumed or assumed to be competent. Meaning you understand what's going on in court. For some individuals with mental illness or cognitive disorders, they're not able or intellectual disabilities, they're not competent as a result of their capacities. And so if they're not able to understand what's going on in court, they don't know what a judge is, what a lawyer is, or they have delusions that the court is out to get them and they're paranoid about it or because of an intellectual disability, they're just not able to effectively understand what's happening. Or maybe because of mood instability, they're so upset and get so upset so easily and angry and yelling and screaming. They can't really work. A lawyer, they're a court hearing. Those are all reasons somebody might be found not competent to stand in trial.

[16:09] Portia Pendleton: Got it.

[16:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's very much like on here and now at the time you're supposed to show up to court, you will get what's going on.

[16:17] Portia Pendleton: Got it.

[16:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Whereas the insanity defense is much more about when you did the thing right.

[16:23] Portia Pendleton: Okay, so for this second group, this.

[16:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not competent group, it would be more like what you were talking about with Sideways, where they might also come to our hospital and they're going to be sent there for treatment and we're going to try to restore them. So we're going to try to make them better so that they can go back to court and deal with their charges. And that might be through getting medications, group therapies and just education about the court system. Sometimes there's an educational deficit and then we try to send them back so they can deal with their charges. The other group we talked about, the insanity defense, folks, we are trying to make them better, but they're not going to go back and face their charges. They've already been found not guilty and their trial is over.

[17:06] Portia Pendleton: Got it.

[17:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Now we're just going to re.

[17:10] Portia Pendleton: Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Portia we've been talking about that for weeks. We're discovering and doing this podcast that a lot of the shows we watch and that other people are asking us to cover involve narcissists and psychopaths. This keeps coming up. Yeah, apparently fascinating.

[17:33] Dr. Tobias Wasser: I think also we see, which I think is an interesting shift. In the movie, Dr. Kauley makes a comment that sanity is not a choice. And then also if you treat a patient with respect, you can reach them. So I think that's kind of like the shift into more current times with respecting patients and having them understand what's happening and having a right to choose maybe different medication trials or therapies and stuff like that. And I think that's great and wonderful and it seemed like what he was doing at the time was really kind of like shocking and out there.

[18:07] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[18:08] Dr. Tobias Wasser: And you even see Teddy the Marshall like being angry. Some of these patients are being treated well or, you know, they're not just.

[18:18] Portia Pendleton: Being, um, so cool, like they're being believed. Right. I'm so curious to biased to hear your views about the forensic psychiatrist they depict who is played by Ben Kingsley, dr. Collie. I did write down a couple of quotes that either he said, I think he said them that I actually thought were pretty lovely. So at one point he was sort of telling Teddy Leonardo DiCaprio's character like what they do at Ashcliffe and he said something like this is the moral fusion between law and order and clinical care. And I thought like, well, that's kind of a lovely description of or definition of forensic psychiatry. And then I really appreciated when Dr. Collie would correct the marshals, when they would refer to the patients as prisoners. And he kept saying they're patients, they're patients. And I think Teddy at one point is like, how can you even treat them like knowing these awful things that they've done? And he said something like I treat the patients, not their victims, I'm not the one here to judge. And I just thought like, wow, I don't know. What are your thoughts about his character Tobias and the depiction of him and the other psychiatrists? All of which I'll just point out were old white men, which is accurate probably for the think.

[19:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: You have picked up on some really lovely quotes and some themes in this that I also aligned with, noticed as being really interesting and as you're saying, portion of the time probably were very progressive. And now I think I wouldn't say they're mainstream, but I think they really what's reflected in this is a lot of the tensions that we do see in the practice of modern forensic days, modern day forensic psychiatry that even now working in these facilities. So we've come a long way since the 1950s and there have been this enormous movement around patients rights and giving them the right to choose what does it mean to accept or refuse medication, what abilities do you have to have to be able to do that? Just because you've been committed to a hospital doesn't mean you can be forced to take medications necessarily. And all the things you're saying about in a forensic hospital, about calling them patients, not prisoners, thinking about their illness and their symptoms rather than the criminal behavior they're accused of or been convicted of. And yet we struggle with this all the time still all day working in these facilities. You often find this tension between how he described the law and order and the clinical care you hope for, that the mental health clinician will be the ones really advocating for the treatment component, that they're going to want to think about the person and their illness. Many of these individuals have been horribly traumatized and see an enormous amount of comorbidity in terms of histories of physical, emotional and sexual trauma in their youth that leads them then to enact this kind of behavior when they're older or it's not surprising to any of us. And so we try to get our staff who are demonstrated, like orderlies or the police officers or security guards, whatever they are, to help them understand that these patients are people and that yes, they may have done something really horrible, but that's not what we're going to define them by. But it's still really a struggle and it really falls on those of us who are providing the care or leadership roles in these institutions to keep holding on to that moralistic value and try to keep advancing things forward. And I often found that in these environments, you often see some amount of regression by the staff, meaning that they start to act in more primitive and earlier ways because it can be an unsafe environment. There is more aggression in these environments than the typical mental health setting. And when people start to feel unsafe, they start to regress into these earlier states of being. And so you'll see more interest in punishment than maybe clinical care. They want the patients to have consequences.

[22:18] Portia Pendleton: When they do that right, or sometimes.

[22:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: They'Ll refer to them by their crime as opposed to by their name or their diagnosis. They're just a murderer, they're just a rapist, something horrible like that. And so it takes a lot of work and a lot of effort to continue to hold the line and to not be drawn into that because I think it's kind of a natural human proclivity and it taxes all of us. But it's also our responsibility when you work in these settings to try to keep holding on to that. The role I had running the hospital for the patients, particularly the individuals who have been found not guilty by reason of insanity, they had to have mandatory public hearings every two years in terms to monitor their progress. And if there was ever an effort to try to move them from the hospital to the community and this happens, every state handles it differently. But every state has some process where either the court or a quasi judicial body, like in Connecticut, we have this separate board. It's kind of like a synthesis between a mental health it's sort of like a mental health parole board, essentially, that these folks, as they move through the system to less and less restrictive environments. And whenever you have to have these hearings, families will come, and they have the opportunity, or they have the opportunity at least to give victim statements, the victim themselves or the family of the victim. And it was heart wrenching. It was really awful to hear and really difficult to many of them have been horribly traumatized by what happened to them or their family members. And as difficult and uncomfortable as it was, it was extremely important, I know for myself and others who work in that environment to hear that for two reasons. One, because I think you don't. As much as we're focused on the patients and wanting to get them better, I think as opposed to how the movie depicts it, where it's I don't think about the other things. I just think about this. We have to at least consider that. I mean, one, because it affects their risk, their initial behavior, even if they were really ill at the time they committed some horrific act, we know that's the riskiest thing potentially they could do, right? If they became ill again, if they medicine or they were out of treatment, that could happen again. And so we have to account for that. The second thing is you can become a little too myopic if all you think about is the patient. There has to be some consideration for the impact of this on the community, both just as a human and if you're trying to advocate that this person returns to the community. And that's probably the biggest reason, is if you advocate that this person returns to the community, this is a reflection of what they might experience in the community. The victims will be there, the family of the victims or other victims who have been suffered at the hands of other individuals. And so the patient has to be ready to manage that, and you have to help the patient to be ready to manage that. And so you can't entirely turn a blind eye to it and just say, oh, that's something that happens out there. Because if the goal is to help the patient get back to out there, you want them to be prepared to what that's going to be like. So I think it's extremely difficult. I don't want to pretend like it's easy, but I think it's a really important part of doing this type of work.

[25:33] Portia Pendleton: This sounds like a really hard job.

[25:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's not an easy job.

[25:38] Portia Pendleton: It sounds really hard. Like just thinking about not just being the psychiatrist for patients like this. I think some would argue these might be like the sickest of the sick, but then also managing the whole team, treating them, who every team member brings in their own experiences. And so they're also probably getting triggered by different things, as we all are right in this line of work. And then thinking about the community at large, I'm just thinking like, gosh, that sounds like a lot of pressure to be the one, I guess at the end of the day to decide like, okay, yes, I think you're ready to reintegrate, or no, I don't know if I could do that. It sounds really hard.

[26:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's really tough. And I think raising a couple of points. One is the community. No community wants these individuals in their community. There actually was a New York Times Magazine article back in, I think, either 2017 or 2018, where they interviewed folks who run these types of hospitals all over the country because they talked about the fact that it's so hard to get patients out of the hospital because nobody wants a former arsonist to be their next door neighbor.

[26:50] Portia Pendleton: Right?

[26:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Arsonist with schizophrenia. I mean, doesn't that sound really inviting that you want to move next door and not to be I don't want to be overly stigmatizing. Maybe that's how people in the community experience this. The other aspect of it that you talk about, the experience of staff who have been traumatized, and so part of it is, as you are saying, they may have had trauma in their own lives that might be triggering when they do this work. As much as I don't want to propagate the idea that individuals mental illness are violent, they're much more likely to be the victims of violence and the perpetrators of violence. But when you have enclosed environments dedicated for individuals who have been accused of crimes, many of who engaged in violent behavior, there is an increased risk of violence in those environments. And some of these staff members will become they will be harmed, of course, their work. And that, of course, can be very traumatizing. And then the final pieces in these environments, the patients tend to stay there for much longer than at a usual hospital. So, I mean, typical, if someone has to go to the psychiatric hospital, they're there maybe seven to 14 days. For our patients, the shortest period of time they're there is usually 60 to 90 days, and the longest is two decades.

[28:02] Portia Pendleton: Wow.

[28:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: People will be there for very long periods of time. And to incentivize, particularly general healthcare workers to work in these environments, they're usually part of unions that are through the state. They have really good benefits, and so they work there for long periods of time. And so you can only imagine the kinds of relationships and dynamics that evolve over the course of years with employees with their own history of trauma, most well trained in managing personality disorders, your psychopaths, your narcissist, your borderline personality disorders, and then you've got those individuals living in an enclosed environment for a decade. It's fraught with all sorts of drama and trauma.

[28:40] Portia Pendleton: Drama and trauma, yeah, for sure. One thing we wanted to ask you, Tobias, is are you able to comment at all about what are the common diagnoses you see or the most common diagnoses you tend to see? Because I think, just like you said, it's really important to us also that in releasing these podcast episodes, that we keep getting the message out there that people with mental illness are so much more likely to be victims of crimes rather than perpetrators of crimes. And yet a lot of these shows depict these raging psychopathic narcissistic. People who are hurting everyone all around them. So I'm just curious if you're able to comment on that or if that was something you noticed in doing this work.

[29:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, so I think this is very much a generalization based on data, statistics or anything, but generally you tend, for the most part to see two kinds of kind of diagnostic profiles. So I think on the one hand, you tend to see individuals who have some kind of a psychotic and or genetic illness schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder with psychotic features. Sometimes they become depressed with psychosis, but mostly it's more in the kind of bipolar and psychotic rain. And their illness is untreated. Either it's been unrecognized or it has been. But they've got off medication for a long period of time. And because of their severe symptoms, their severe mood and psychotic symptoms, they develop either delusional beliefs or they hear voices tell them to do violent things, and then they end up engaging in some kind of risky or violent behavior, whether that's directly being harmful, physical assault, sexual assault, setting a fire, something of that nature. That's kind of one large diagnostic group we tend to see. The second tends to be much more, actually, unfortunately, you said you don't have experience with this, but it tends to actually be probably people you might have been more likely to see, which are individuals who have severe personality disorders and then may or may not develop some. They're usually using substances and may or may not develop a substance induced psychosis. So they're typically, as I was saying, really people with some kind of antisocial personality disorder, which means that they disregard the rights of others. They don't care about rules. They're really only out for themselves. They usually have a heavy dose of narcissism. And then you see a fair number of individuals with borderline personality disorders with this relationship instability and all sorts of other things. You add some substances on top of that, whether it's alcohol, marijuana, coffee, opiates, whatever it might be. And then sometimes they start to develop psychop psychosis or extreme mood instability. And with that group so with the first group we talked about who has a more classic psychotic, manic illness, they actually tend to do it because once they get to the hospital, they get treatment. We know how to treat that group, right? Medicines we have that are tried and true, therapies we have that are tried and true. And they actually tend to get out of the hospital sooner if they're willing to kind of go along with the treatment program. The second group is enormously difficult to treat. And as you guys will know, we certainly don't have medicines because usually what happens is, once they're in the hospital, they're not using illicit substances. So that psychotic or manic illness, dissipates, and all we're left with is the personality disorder, and we don't have medicines to treat it. Our therapies are intermittently or variably effective, depending. Particularly, we don't really have much for antisocial, right? We're a little better with borderline antisocial. But then they're also in these contained environments which are full of law and worship, just like described in the OB. And these individuals don't tend to they don't like it.

[32:39] Portia Pendleton: Lots of rules and law being told.

[32:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: What to do and long term relationships with either their peers or staff who keep showing up every single day. So those individuals are really challenging for the staff, and they're really challenging to reintegrate into the environment.

[32:57] Portia Pendleton: Do you come across a fair amount of malingering?

[33:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: So you do. Where you tend to see more malingering, you tend to see a lot of malingering in those. Not a lot, I should say we see more for the most part, there is not a lot of malingering, but we do see it probably more than other environments. And when we tend to see it, it tends to be in those individuals who not the insanity defense folks, but those people who are found not competent to stand trial. So again, every state is different, but in most states, the legal regulations are essentially that if you're not competent to stand trial, you cannot be tried for your crime, because the courts place this emphasis on human dignity, essentially. And so the idea is, if you're not mentally sound, how can we try you for a crime if you don't understand what's going on? Work effectively to your lawyer. So it depends on the state, but if you're not able to be competent or restored to your competence, you may never face your charges. And so how that's dealt with is different. You may end up in a psychiatric hospital, you may not, but most of those people won't face their crime. And so there's a number of individuals, whether their crimes are significant or more minor, who essentially think, can I fake crazy?

[34:15] Portia Pendleton: Can I fake crazy in order to.

[34:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Get out of facing my crime and dealing with the consequences. So we do see that more than most things, and most of hospitals like this employ psychologists who can do psychological testing and screen for malinkering as a way of trying to help us substitute that out. That's a big part of the assessment we do, especially if we suspect that somebody might be faking it more than might be faking it, period.

[34:39] Portia Pendleton: When you're getting ready to discharge patients from these forensic hospitals, are there specific community clinics or places that you sort of go to who can sort of do you get to collaborate with them after the patient leaves to sort of make sure they're okay or their check ins. Or if they start to unravel, they can sort of quickly come back into treatment. Or is that just like a fantasy I'm creating in my head?

[35:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, you're not far off. So again, my experience is here in the state of Connecticut. So here we tend to work with our state mental health department and almost all the patients receive treatment at community mental health centers that are part of the state mental health system.

[35:20] Portia Pendleton: Okay.

[35:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: They work with those folks and because it's so hard to get them to the community, there are usually prolonged transition periods where they're meeting their community clinicians while they're still at the hospital. They're beginning they have transitional visits if they're going to be in some kind of they're almost always living in some kind of supervised setting, whether it's a supervised apartment or a group home or something. And so they do transitional visits before they actually leave the hospital. And they may spend months, maybe even up to a year, just engaged in a transition process before they actually go and leave the hospital. And then usually in most states, there's some mechanism for bringing us back to the hospital if they're not doing well. So there's a concept called conditional release, which is the idea that they can be released to the hospital, but it's conditional on their safety, good behavior or whatever you want to say. And it can be both. That's why it's conditional if there's some safety related concern and they can be brought back to the hospital.

[36:22] Portia Pendleton: I see. Okay. Wouldn't this be nice for almost everyone needing inpatient psychiatric care to just have more time getting treatment and then have this nice transition period? And it just seems like such a better model overall. And I wonder if that's what it used to be like back in the day where people would not just get two days of treatment and then be discharged.

[36:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think in a world that's less driven by insurance reimbursement, this probably was I don't know that quite this extreme, but I imagine this was the model. And I do think as so much of our health care is now decided by what will be paid for and not paid for, we've really gotten away from this. And I think not everybody needs this, but many individuals for whom they could benefit from this kind of care. And part of what's talked about in public entities, state, county funded institutions, is this idea that kind of like the allocation of resources really depends on what the law requires you to do. And so there's always a limited fund of resources in any state, county, whatever. And so where you shift your resources is what's required. So like, for example, Connecticut is not one of them. But most states have some form of involuntary outpatient commitment for individuals who need to be they're chronically ill, chronically dangerous, and they want something like what you're describing, which is a way to bring them into the hospital quickly if they're not doing well in the community.

[37:47] Portia Pendleton: I think New York has something like that, right? Where if you're not complying with your injectable antipsychotic or something.

[37:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly, yeah. So New York actually 46 of the 50 states have laws like this but New York was one of the first, called Kendra's Law. North Carolina was an early adopter of this as well. They've done the most research on it, and there's some evidence that it works. But the major concerns with laws like this one is that it tends to be overly representative of minoritized individuals, people who are black, brown, Hispanic, from low socionomic status, that we tend to see more of those individuals. And so there's a significant concern that's been raised that these ideas are built on racist practices and structures, and so it's inappropriately used in those populations too often. The second concern that's often raised, which I think is where I was going before, was that because there's a limited pot or pool of resources, when you construct laws like what I'm describing, for involuntary outpatient commitment, it requires the public entity to give the resources to those individuals usually at the loss of the resources for other individuals who aren't engaging in those same behaviors but might equally benefit from them. Because you're going to kind of shift your focus to whatever you have to do, and whatever you don't have to do, you're less likely to do.

[39:12] Portia Pendleton: That makes a lot of sense. I also feel like that could be really used against patients in an icky way. It's so hard. It's like I understand it, but then it just feels like it could be really coercive.

[39:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it's not the same, but it's a little similar to when you have patients if you're caring for individuals who are on probation. And then there's this polls as well. Your probation officer is not going to like it if you don't show up. I'm going to call them again. I think it's like this well intended effort to try to keep the person engaged in treatment and engaged and using the interventions that you think will keep them safe and well and out of trouble. But it's really manipulative kind of co opting the purpose of treatment, which ought to be for treatment, and we ought to be giving people a choice. And if they want to participate, great. And if they don't, they may have consequences for those choices, but it's not our responsibility as mental health providers to be enacting those consequences. And that's often the challenge that people find themselves in, that somehow they get drawn into that in a well intended but kind of inappropriately administered way.

[40:18] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[40:18] Dr. Tobias Wasser: And I want motivational interviewing gone wrong, helping them explore the potential consequences and what that might be like versus I'm going to call them myself.

[40:31] Portia Pendleton: It reminds me when I threaten to call Santa Claus on my children when they won't just get dressed in the morning. So Tobias, do you have any criticisms about this movie and the way anything was portrayed? Or I guess on the flip side, did they get anything really right that you really liked?

[41:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: I found myself really struggling with the ending. When you find out that this whole thing has been kind of an elaborate and effort to lean into the delusions. I think back to your anecdote.

[41:17] Dr. Tobias Wasser: There was a part of me that.

[41:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: You don't know why.

[41:19] Portia Pendleton: Right. What are you doing? I learned this my very first day of training.

[41:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And then you don't want to trick your patients. That's not a way of engendering trust and all these things. And then there was another part of me that thought, like, this is really interesting. Would this work? Is there any chance that trying to align with the patient in some way could be effective? I think I reached a conclusion. No, I don't think so. I don't think we want to. It's a tightrope walk, as we probably talked about that fateful day. I think you want to help the patient feel supported without reinforcing that the beliefs that you think are symptoms of an illness are actually happening.

[42:02] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[42:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think that it wasn't surprising to me, I guess, given that this was supposed to be such a novel, progressive treatment model, that they would try to enact this on Shutter Island. But I found myself troubled by it, ultimately.

[42:20] Portia Pendleton: And I couldn't believe it was his psychiatrist who was, like, the other Marshall. Right. Like Mark Ruffalo's character. Like, for a while, I kept thinking, like, was Mark Ruffalo like a hallucination? Was that his part of his mind that was still sane in some ways? And then when it comes out that that's actually the psychiatrist they all said was on vacation, I was like, how do you do that? How is he ever going to trust you again?

[42:47] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Yeah.

[42:48] Portia Pendleton: What did you think about when they were all having their scotch at the end of their night, like, in their big, fancy velvet chairs and thrilling their mustaches? And that one psychiatrist kept saying, I feel like I want to use this in social conversation. Somehow he kept looking at Teddy and going, you have great defense mechanisms. Do you remember that? Wow, these are great defense. But it was like an underhanded comment. I don't know.

[43:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Was that not part of your training?

[43:17] Portia Pendleton: No, I missed that part. I must have been on maternity leave.

[43:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I just thought it was so stereotypical of psychiatrists. Who knows? Maybe that is what really happened in the 50s. But it was just this kind of idea of the old boys club, and let's sit around and be very sophisticated and talk about our analytics theory right.

[43:42] Portia Pendleton: And judge and analyze everyone. Right. I feel like I think we all probably get this in social situations, like when you're just trying to make friends or whatever, and people hear your psychiatrist and everyone gets so nervous, and they're like, oh, are you analyzing me now? But I think movies like this sort of perpetuate that when these people are analyzing everyone so quickly. One thing that I wanted to touch on was Michelle Williams's character. I forget her name, but she was basically Teddy Daniels's wife. And she did end up, it seems like well, she did end up killing their three children. And I just wanted to bring it up because it reminds me of postpartum psychosis, which has been in the news lately. And as a reproductive psychiatrist, anytime I can talk about this and sort of just get some info out there, I like to, because it is the most severe complication of childbirth. I mean, mental health complications like depression, anxiety, OCD are the most common complication of childbirth beyond any physical complication. And then postpartum psychosis is the most severe and also the most rare. And if you develop postpartum depression or anxiety, that does not increase your risk for having postpartum psychosis. These are two separate disease pathways. So I see a lot of women in my practice who have had postpartum depression or anxiety, especially lately, I think, with what's being said in the news, who get really scared that if they want to have a baby, does that mean that they could lose their mind, so to speak? So this condition occurs in one to two out of every thousand births. So, again, super rare. About 40% of women have the baby blues after delivering a baby. That's just where you feel like you're on an emotional roller coaster, and it's awful, but it's totally normal. And then about ten to 15% develop postpartum depression, anxiety, OCD. And then, again, one to two out of 1000. I can't do that fraction in my head, but very rare to get postpartum psychosis. Again, I feel like I don't think that's what this character was experiencing because her children look too old. I don't think there was a baby involved. Usually, postpartum psychosis develops in hours to weeks after delivery, so that first, like, two to four weeks is really critical to be monitoring someone. A lot of times, women who develop this condition, you'll have symptoms of hallucinations, hearing or seeing things that aren't there, delusional lines of thinking that aren't in line with the broader cultural beliefs that you're growing up in. And a lot of times, unfortunately, these delusional thoughts are directed toward the baby. You think, like, the baby is possessed by a demon. The only way of helping them is by killing them, for example. Something like that. So the rates of suicide infanticide are really high. Sadly, I think there's like a 4% risk of suicide and around the same for infanticide. And that's incredibly sad. In this movie, it seems like the children were older. So again, postpartum psychosis would develop really early or up to a year. A lot of times, women with this condition end up having an underlying bipolar disorder. So, again, if you have a history of bipolar disorder, you really want to be monitored carefully. Again, it's still rare, but it could happen. But I feel like, if I remember correctly in the movie, the kids were older, so it makes me wonder if the mom had depression with psychotic features or a personality disorder. We don't really know. We don't really get to know anything about her. But I couldn't watch it this time. I had to fast forward through those scenes near the end. It was, like, way too much for me to watch. I don't know about you guys. Yeah.

[47:35] Dr. Tobias Wasser: They had said in the movie and using their words at the time that his wife was insane and a manic depressive. Suicidal tendencies was how they described her to him when he was kind of.

[47:48] Portia Pendleton: Coming out of right. So maybe she had some kind of bipolar disorder or schizoaffective disorder or something.

[47:58] Dr. Tobias Wasser: And I think, too, I was just, like, reflecting on his trauma in the war and then coming home and kind of finding his children deceased. And then his wife kind of really flippant about it. And I think that could make a lot of people react the way he did with killing her in that moment. Emotions are so high because I was thinking it's like, why did he end up here? I might be way off here. I don't know at all. He was there not because of the crime of killing his wife, but because of his then, like, delusion after because I feel like you could kill someone and you go to jail versus, like, a forensic hospital.

[48:48] Portia Pendleton: Maybe he was found not guilty by reason of insanity because they were saying maybe have happened.

[48:53] Dr. Tobias Wasser: I'm assuming then for him to end up on that island versus, like, a jail.

[48:57] Portia Pendleton: Right? No, I think you're right. And I think I wrote down when the team kept talking about Rachel Solano, the brunette woman who allegedly went missing, I felt like if you rewatched it, you could hear their thoughts about Teddy, right? Like, as they're all part of this big hoax. I think they're actually, like, talking to Teddy, and they said something about how the greatest obstacle to recovery is the inability to face what she's done. And I feel like that was him. And I think, like you said earlier, Tobias, it really speaks to is he delusional or an extreme denial? And we kind of saw that foundation laid. I thought with all the flashbacks to war and that he clearly had PTSD, looks like he developed an alcohol use disorder, and then this happened. Why wouldn't he still be using his excellent defense mechanisms to stay in this world of denial? Is there anything else you want to mention before we ask you your thoughts about some of our other favorite psychopaths?

[50:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: No. I hate you guys at all. I welcome your psychopath.

[50:16] Portia Pendleton: So you have seen the show. You right. At least some of it.

[50:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. I've seen the first couple of seasons.

[50:22] Portia Pendleton: I'm so jealous whenever I meet someone who isn't caught up because it's so good, and, like, season three and four are so good. So we're dying to know your thoughts about Joe Goldberg?

[50:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And I've heard some of your guys discussions about this, about the episode, the seasons. I have seen that he is such an interesting sociopath.

[50:48] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[50:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's got this level of compassion in him that you just don't typically see. And it's confusing. I mean, like his relationship, like with.

[50:59] Portia Pendleton: Paco, the little boy.

[51:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. Neighbor boy. Clearly there's some projection identification there, but there are just ways in which he clearly connects exactly in a way that you don't typically get. It makes it almost feel not real. But in my experience working with individuals with social personality disorder, and even the ones who would be identified as sociopaths, I've never come across somebody like that before. You tend to see much more callousness, much more narcissism, self directed interest. And he clearly has plenty of callousness and self directed interest and erotic fantasies and all sorts of other things. But I think that's the part to me that's most notable because it humanizes the character in a way that you almost root for him.

[51:52] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[51:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Dominique, sociopathic, right?

[51:56] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. What do you think about Logan Roy? Do you watch Succession?

[52:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm just thinking about this in anticipation of today and I guess are you guys convinced that he's a sociopath or a psychopath? I think he's an extreme narcissist, doesn't care about other people. I don't know that he purposely tries to harm me. To me, I view his character pathology as all being about himself and a way of fulfilling his own needs, seeing himself as more important than anybody else. I don't see him necessarily as like I guess he doesn't care about the rules, but it just all seems so self serving. So maybe I'm drawing the lines of distinctions that don't exist, but I don't know what you guys think.

[52:47] Portia Pendleton: I still think he's very, like a malignant narcissist. However, I could maybe be convinced that this was a very intense, complex PTSD and developments of putting his own needs first to survive in a trauma informed kind of way based on the way he was brought up. Like, he doesn't know any better, but then he just does stuff to the kid, to his kids who are adults, but I always call them kids that just feel so icky and like to his grandson, and maybe he's going to poison them or not, where then I'm just like.

[53:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that's fair. Poisoning of the children.

[53:31] Portia Pendleton: That'S usually not cool. What do you think about that?

[53:35] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Is that also learned?

[53:37] Portia Pendleton: Right?

[53:38] Dr. Tobias Wasser: This is how he was hit, or this is how you make a man, or this is how you make someone who's self sufficient views at times like Kendall and specifically, it feels like Kendall is really soft, right. Not hard enough, not like a killer. And I don't know, it's like almost his disappointment in that, because he is, but it's like he was raised that way. I think it is confusing. I mean, a lot of trauma always there seems to be. But does he love does he feel good when he hurts them because he hurts them, or does he not think about it, or does he feel like he's helping them? I don't know.

[54:23] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[54:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think I can see that, and I guess I've seen it more as maybe an adaptive behavior. I think that based on the difficult life experiences that we learned recently that he had and upbringing, the challenges he had to overcome, I think both. He literally had to overcome a lot. And it seems like there's this learned aspect that espousing a machado and a machismo. Like, this is the way that you're big and you're tough and you got to get through life to get over these things. And he does some horrible things, but usually it's to achieve some personal, self serving end.

[54:59] Portia Pendleton: Usually the reason, not because he's, like, getting off on hurting someone else.

[55:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Again. I don't pretend to fully understand logan Roy. It doesn't seem like he hurts for the sake of hurting. He seems to hurt as a means to the end of his own success and survival.

[55:16] Portia Pendleton: Right? Yeah. Right. What do you think about Tom?

[55:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's, like, slimy and slithery and will do whatever he has to do to anybody in order to get to that ultimate goal. And it's hard to know. He probably is probably born that way, whatever. But it does seem like it stems differently from this deep seated insecurity about his upbringing and always wanting something grand and great and wanting to feel grand and great. And it seems like he hopes that if he can be in the presence of greatness, then he will be great, and then he will ascend to greatness, and he'll finally, basically, finally convince Mommy to love him.

[55:53] Dr. Tobias Wasser: I had the wool over my eyes for him until recently.

[55:57] Portia Pendleton: That's okay, portia. You have a pure heart. You have a pure heart. Got to watch out. People like him will get you like it for real. Thank you so much, Tobias. This is super helpful. So thanks for listening to another episode of Analyze Scripts. You can find us on Instagram at Analyze scripts. You can find us on TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast and stay tuned for our next episode, and we'll see you next Monday. Bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems. Or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

[57:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Our channel.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing the third season of "Succession" on HBOMax. In this episode, we continue exploring the evolution of the adult siblings with a focus on different manifestations of a "wounded narcissist" in Kendall and Roman. We also spend time exploring the theme of the Roman and Shiv being drawn to romantic partners who are psychologically similar to their parents. We unpack various betrayals that occured throughout the season, culminating in Tom showing his true colors. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. All right. Porsche, season three of succession. What a doozy.

[01:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[01:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow. Wow.

[01:05] Portia Pendleton: Watched it really fast. And then I and then I tried to kind of rewatch it again because there was so much good content and character development and character crumbling and character everything.

[01:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And some of the lines were so funny, but perfect. I think it was episode five where Logan has the UTI. I think that might be, like, my favorite episode of television. Ever.

[01:28] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, ever.

[01:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was so funny. Like, I'm going to watch it again after this.

[01:33] Portia Pendleton: I need to I think you had sent me a text, and we're like, oh, my gosh, have you seen episode five yet? And I was like, no, I haven't, and just kind of, like, seeing all the different shenanigans take place. And even so funny as, like, yes, that he thinks that there's a cat underneath his seat, but then them having to keep running back and forth, giving Frank notes, he's like, stalling the shareholder, and they're just talking nonsense, and Greg's the one running back and forth with the notes.

[02:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: So funny.

[02:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I know.

[02:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I want to watch it again because it's so ridiculous. I feel like that must have been a fun one to film. And I feel like they were owed that. They have a lot of intense scenes. It was nice to see this. And just as a plug, perfect depiction of how UTIs can affect someone's cognitive function. So I had no idea.

[02:25] Portia Pendleton: So please share.

[02:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Why my gosh. So UTIs, urinary tract infections. As a psychiatrist, whenever you are evaluating, like, anyone, but especially an older person with rapid onset cognitive change, you check a UTI. Most of the time, it's honestly a UTI. It's some kind of infection. It really can affect them cognitively. I can't tell you how many times in training in the emergency room, we would get a consult for an 85 year old with, quote, unquote, new onset schizophrenia. Spoiler alert. That is not a thing. That is, like, less than 1% chance of someone getting schizophrenia for the first time at 85 years old. 99.99%.

[03:04] Portia Pendleton: It's a UTI. So is it the age?

[03:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I mean, when you're older, your system is just more fragile, like, more vulnerable to things. Oftentimes when you're older, you're on a lot of medications for, like, blood pressure, cholesterol, diabetes, bladder issues, all these other things which all the medications can have side effects, they can interact, and your system is just more susceptible to an infection. And that's one of the ways it can present. So it's super important to keep that in mind if you have older family members and they start acting differently. I mean, it can also have things like paranoia or hallucinations. Like he displays the cat and all this stuff. I was just like, this is perfect. This is so perfect. And you just need to start some antibiotics. But I just thought that was so just what a funny detail. And I love that episode.

[04:00] Portia Pendleton: And that woman with the long, dark, dark brown or black hair and bangs.

[04:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Who we see Logan, who's like her new secretary or something.

[04:08] Portia Pendleton: She knows, right? She had she was also like, is she a nurse? Because she seemed so quick and on it with the medications and having them and knowing the side effects. I was like, what is her role? So maybe she has maybe that's a requirement, his assistance or maybe like medical training.

[04:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, or maybe like, she's the only one who knows about his medical stuff.

[04:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, she said he didn't want anyone else to know.

[04:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And again, because I think this show is such a fascinating depiction of a narcissist aging where it's so threatening to your sense of self to be weak or vulnerable or inferior. And again, it's like, yes, he feels that way because of his personality traits, but also there is truth in that, like, in his role as head of this huge company that's, like, having a lot of financial issues, sort of having a hard time keeping up with the times and with streaming and all this stuff. He can't hear weak or vulnerable. We saw that in season one when he tries to go give a speech, and now we're seeing it here where he wants to, again, give a speech, but he's got a UT. And they're like, oh, you can't do that. Literally, I just loved how even then, the siblings are all like, well, dad has to agree with this. And so then Shiv calls off the deal, and then they're like, oh, no, dad is not in his but they.

[05:34] Portia Pendleton: Like, almost I was surprised at how long it took them to get there.

[05:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: To figure out that he wasn't okay.

[05:40] Portia Pendleton: It was like multiple things were happening. And I was like, hello. Hello. Who's going to pick it up? That he's acting very strangely. And Tom is the one who's like, I think there's something wrong with your dad.

[05:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe that's because Tom is removed enough where he can tolerate again, because it probably hasn't been safe for them to question their dad or be like, hey, dad, are you okay? You know what I mean? That's not like a safe thing to do. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, just a little plug UTIs. Can have significant cognitive effects, especially when you're older. Always get checked for UTI or make sure your family member is if they're older and have new onset cognitive changes. Like, we could save lives with this. PSA.

[06:27] Portia Pendleton: That was news for me.

[06:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, yes. Hooray hooray. This psychiatrist is so proud of that depiction. Anyway, getting away from urinary tract infections and back to season three. So quick plot recap. End of season two, I found myself, like, cheering from the balcony when Kendall did a total reverse and my jaw.

[06:52] Portia Pendleton: Was on the floor, right? Yeah.

[06:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you were like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I really didn't see it coming. I thought he was going to take the fall. He was going to be the blood sacrifice, as Logan says. How sick was that, too? In season two, they were all trying to decide who should be sacrificed.

[07:07] Portia Pendleton: I know, but at the end of.

[07:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: The day, I was like, I know it's going to be Kendall. Why are we even pretending? What's this?

[07:12] Portia Pendleton: I think he was waiting for Kendall.

[07:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: To step up or something. That's a good point. That's interesting to think about, too, now that in this season, tom stepped up to say he would take the fall to jail. It's interesting. I was so proud. And then I was like, why am I so proud?

[07:31] Portia Pendleton: This is all so and we both kind of think and agreed that it seemed like Logan, even though he was being royally screwed, he seemed proud of Kendall.

[07:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Because remember, Kendall was like, just be real with me, dad. You are never going to give me the company. Right? And he's like, you're not a killer. You could do everything you want, but you're not a killer. And again, it's like Kendall will never be good enough for his dad no matter what. So in a weird way, even though Kendall's saying he's trying to do good, he's not. I think he's trying to win his dad's approval by being like his dad. And in a way, I feel like Logan respects it, but can't tolerate it because there's no room for him. Right?

[08:15] Portia Pendleton: Right. I think it has to be that way. It just fits the personality traits. We see Kendall then kind of doing more and more things in season three that just feel so different right. From season one. Kind of see his arc of turning just into seemingly more like grandiose delusional, detached from kind of a reality, in a way.

[08:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. But I feel like that's probably who Kendall really is. I feel like in season one, it started off with him getting out of rehab. He was probably at his quote unquote best, like, trying really hard.

[08:53] Portia Pendleton: He was clean during season.

[08:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: He was clean. He was about to take the reins. He looked anxious a lot of the times, but I think he was doing the right thing. And now that hasn't gotten him anywhere. And in fact, his dad's like, you're never going to get the business because you're not a killer, right? So now he's like, fine, here you go. And I think he's sick of being this taking the fall for everything.

[09:20] Portia Pendleton: And I think Kendall, if we think of him receiving treatment and being his best self, I don't think, as we have said before, it's safe for him to be his best self. So I think he's coping right now with substances because that's honestly what's safer. Unless he wants to totally estrange himself from his family, get out the shares, be bought out, take his money and go somewhere else and do whatever and do the work. Right? Then have the therapy, then kind of reestablish himself, then do the skills if he thinks he needs it, maybe some medications. But it's like, until that happens, if it ever does, which I doubt, I.

[09:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Think this is his best this is how he survived. Yeah.

[10:01] Portia Pendleton: This is how he's like, okay, right.

[10:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And just what? Mixed messages from Logan. Right? Because it's like, okay, I go to rehab. I'm clean. I'm doing all the businessy stuff. I'm showing up on time. I'm responsible. You say you're going to give me the company, then you don't. Okay, that's confusing. Like, why not? What am I not doing? Oh, I'm not ruthless enough or vengeful enough or things like that. Okay, so now I'm going to do that and still not getting right. What is it, dad? What do you want from me?

[10:31] Portia Pendleton: And then I accidentally kill someone. And then you give me a hug and you call me your son and you bring me in, and then you abuse me and use me. And it's like he's reached this kind of breaking point where he's just I was himself in the best ability that he can be under substance use.

[10:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he feels so low and so insecure and so hopeless. I was worried this whole season that he was going to kill himself.

[10:55] Portia Pendleton: So we didn't talk about this, but.

[10:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: In season, I think it was two. I think I know where you're going.

[11:00] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So he's up on the roof. There's a couple of scenes where he's on the roof and just looking over. And then I think it's the end of season. It's the end of one of the seasons, not three, where he finally goes back up there and there's this long right, clear wall put up, and it's like, who did that watching him? How did they know.

[11:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: He'S thinking about it? I wonder, though, do we pick that up because we're therapists and stuff? Would the average person watching, seeing him look out, think like, I think you're thinking about suicide here.

[11:38] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I feel like some yeah, just because I mean, it seems intentional. Like, it seems like we're supposed to.

[11:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then they show you with the plexiglass or whatever it is. When I used to work for Yale, I remember actually, I didn't know this till I worked there, that in college. Mental health balconies and stuff like that are like a hot topic because they pose such a serious suicide risk for people being able to jump off the roof or jump off of this balcony or that balcony that people go around and measure the height and put up those plexiglass things and lock the doors to the roof and all these things that I never knew, but which make a lot of sense. So I don't know. It was interesting. Yeah, I definitely thought of that. And then the whole season, I was just like, again, he has narcissistic personality disorder. Kendall. I mean, they all do to some degree, but definitely Kendall. He has substance use disorder. Those co occur very frequently. He probably has some anxiety, which often co occurs. He might have depression, which often co occurs with all this stuff. His risk for suicide is so high.

[12:47] Portia Pendleton: Given all of that and all of the environmental triggers. Right. It doesn't seem like he sees his kids much. It seems like he is aware that there's a lot of people using him. He's totally estranged in a very dysfunctional way from his family, even though he.

[13:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Feels that would be, like, the healthiest thing. But he keeps getting ostracized, and it's like, with each season, it's more and more and more, and this season it's really intense, where Logan tells the secretary, block his number for good.

[13:17] Portia Pendleton: The birthday card.

[13:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: The birthday card where he's like, Take your shares and **** off. But then that was all a ruse. That was all manipulative, right? Because then finally, at their mom's wedding, kendall sits down with Logan and is like, okay, I want to take you up on this. I want to get bought out and leave. Right? And, like, you're saying, Portia. I was like, Why didn't he do this earlier? Just get out already. And then he won't let him. I know he won't.

[13:46] Portia Pendleton: I want to keep you close. Or what if I want to keep you close?

[13:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was, like, so chilling, that scene between them, and even with Logan making his grandson try the food because he thought Kendall maybe poisoned him, when really the kids thought that earlier in the season. With the donuts, it's just like that degree of mistrust and danger they grew up with that constantly.

[14:16] Portia Pendleton: That's real.

[14:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's real.

[14:17] Portia Pendleton: Had a huge reaction to the donuts, then kind of Roman kind of joked about it. They kind of, like, laughed off. None of them ate that.

[14:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: They were all ate them. They all knew.

[14:25] Portia Pendleton: And then they felt uncomfortable, and then they left and dispersed. It was just such a gesture that had huge implications.

[14:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Logan knows what he's doing. And again, I'm like, were they poisoned? We'll never know because no one ate them. But I wouldn't be surprised, would you?

[14:43] Portia Pendleton: No, I wouldn't be surprised.

[14:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm sure Logan has poisoned someone somewhere. Along the way. Why not have kids?

[14:49] Portia Pendleton: And even just something to like right. We're not talking about death, but we're talking about incapacitation. Whether that be having to be in the bathroom all day or like a date rape drug. Like you're just kind of out for a couple of hours.

[15:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hypno or something. Right, exactly. Yeah. That's chilling. Just chilling.

[15:13] Portia Pendleton: I thought Kendall kind of broke my heart. Or I felt so bad for him when he was at his birthday party. And Roman, I don't think meant to push him to the floor, but pushes him. I think Pet push him. Like, get goodbye done. And then Kendall falls in front of everyone and it just like where he had mentally, I was like, oh, my gosh. I just felt so sad for him.

[15:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[15:41] Portia Pendleton: Like, he's lost, he's empty, he's surrounded by all of these people, and he feels like he's looking for his kids gift.

[15:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: He didn't find it. I know. Yeah, I know.

[15:53] Portia Pendleton: That was hard to watch.

[15:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Kendall is just, like, such a compelling character. Again. I just am. Like, I hope Jeremy strong isn't therapy.

[16:01] Portia Pendleton: I know.

[16:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's married to a psychiatrist. We learned he's the method actor who's always in character. So I'm just really concerned for him doing this for this long. But I mean, you just really see Kendall unravel and all of that going on that show with Zway and then having this huge 40th birthday party, going to the park and inviting all these big fancy people. It's all so sad to me because.

[16:28] Portia Pendleton: He feels so, like, firing team after team after team lawyers.

[16:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: I loved when that lawyer asked him, like, do you think you're smarter than me? Because he does. He thinks he's smarter than he's not.

[16:40] Portia Pendleton: I thought his response was interesting. It was like a non response. But then he responds by firing her.

[16:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[16:45] Portia Pendleton: So that is the response. So he does think he's so disrespectful.

[16:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: When he was like, let's just try harder. Yeah, let's just try harder. And it's like, oh, my God, dude, you're the one who's not taking in any feedback.

[16:58] Portia Pendleton: So let's talk about the pool. He was kind of laying on there. So when we saw that, I was like, okay, we're staying here for a while. It was a long scene of seeing him float. And I was like I was like.

[17:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: It'S coming, it's coming.

[17:12] Portia Pendleton: What's going to happen? So it seems like he was on.

[17:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Substances in his hands. He's at least drinking. He probably has been on substances, right? Like, the whole time. I think it was intentional. I don't think it was an accident. I think especially because he's been so ostracized. And then they get to their mother's wedding and she's like, oh, you can't come to these things because Logan's going to be there.

[17:35] Portia Pendleton: And he's like, so he says your son can't come because of the ex husband who you hate?

[17:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she's like, Yep. Because the ex husband, who I hate, can do something right. And, like, my new husband wants those optics. I mean, like, how much more can Kendall be, like, kicked in the ground? How much more?

[17:58] Portia Pendleton: And I just couldn't think, too. It's like the gaslighting. You can tell, wanting to turn to this imaginary person, being like, do you hear you hearing this?

[18:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: This is crazy. Right?

[18:11] Portia Pendleton: And then, of course, this makes sense. It's 4 hours, Ken. It's not a big deal.

[18:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: All the minimization and dismissal, that happens a lot with Kendall. It happens a lot with Shiv, a lot with her. But he's so hopeless. It made me so sad that his kids were right there. That was the part where I was like, I don't know.

[18:34] Portia Pendleton: And Logan was, like, talking to the kids. He made some comment, like, I don't remember exactly, but he alluded to, like, you know, your dad's okay, right? It's fine. And I just thought that that was interesting.

[18:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Why?

[18:55] Portia Pendleton: I feel like I couldn't tell the purpose. Are you saying that to them so that these kids don't become really screwed up because, again, you're related to them? Is there anything there? I feel like he has a little bit of sociopathic traits, but is there any normalcy of you're, this grandfather figure? They know their dad just, like, almost died.

[19:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Are you trying to come from Christ?

[19:25] Portia Pendleton: And I feel like he's not a Joe Goldberg. He's horrible and narcissistic, but that's where I was like, what is the purpose here? And then he immediately is kind of making fun of his grandson for that book.

[19:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's like but also, I can't remember the content of the book, but it seemed really on point with what had just happened with the dad. To me, there was a clear emotional connection. There was something about a parent leaving, but then coming back. I wish I and his sister was.

[19:51] Portia Pendleton: Like, oh, he likes to read it sometimes, and it's like it's probably, like, comforting for him because he's so upset.

[19:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: But instead, he's like, so and so. Give me a new book with action. Right? Yeah, give me an action book. This is what boys should read. So I don't know. And then we just remember that was the little boy. He'd, like, punched his face, and then he asked to try his food. Yes. So it's like, I don't god, you.

[20:18] Portia Pendleton: Got to hope that they're getting some balance with rava.

[20:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: I hope so, right?

[20:25] Portia Pendleton: Oh, and then the guinea pig or the rabbit?

[20:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: The rabbit again, because Kendall thinks he knows everything. He's like, Just feed the rabbit the bagel. Just feed the bagel. I think the rabbit, like, dies or gets really sick, and then the kids wrap the wrapping paper in a rabbit wrapping paper. So in that way, it's like, the kids are also, like, knocking him down.

[20:43] Portia Pendleton: And you can see Kendall's again another moment. The whole birthday party was really so sad. But when he's digging through all the gifts and it's so important that he finds the kids gift, and I get that. I feel that he wanted to open he probably wanted to text them or see what they got him that makes him feel good. They got me a gift.

[21:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it also highlights how disconnected he is from them that he doesn't even know. Right.

[21:10] Portia Pendleton: I think he was surprised that maybe they got him something and then find it. I was like, I think she wants.

[21:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: To find the gift. I think she said they made it for him, like, it was homemade. And Roman, a lot of times, is always talking about how, like, oh, Kendall can't find his kids again. Oh, where are the kids? And he is absent from their life. And then it's like, well, maybe that's what's best for them. I hate to say it, but maybe I'm hoping Rava's like, protecting them or shielding them somehow. She has to, because he can't do that for them.

[21:44] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[21:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he can't fully protect them from his dad. Yeah. Like, I just really feel for Kendall. And then near the end when he finally has that breakdown, which reminds us of the little breakdown he had in season two with Shiv where they don't get into the details, but there was, like, a moment of genuine connection between them where you're like, oh, I didn't know you guys were capable.

[22:13] Portia Pendleton: And Shiv seems so caught off guard at first, and it seemed like it took her a lot to be like, oh, no, this is real. I'm not being manipulated. This isn't fake. Someone's not trying to get one over on me. And then she hugs him, and they're in the office, I believe, and he's just, like, crying. And I think she doesn't know what to do with that.

[22:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: From season two.

[22:36] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And then she hugs him, and he's like, can you just take care of me? And she's like, okay. And I think she's really caught off guard and confused.

[22:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: He doesn't even know what that means. Yeah, I think he was crying to her about feeling like realizing all I'm worth is what I'm worth. That's it. And that's so true, unfortunately, and so sad. And around then, I was like, oh, no. I'm really worried about his safety. Really worried.

[23:01] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So I thought it was a nice moment. I was really rooting for the three of them. I thought that all of their responses were, like, spot on. I thought the acting like they were awkward because they don't know how to do emotions, trying to joke it off that he's not getting better. You know what I mean? So then she kind of puts his arm her hand on his shoulder. Roman kind of crouches down, and they're, like, in it.

[23:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And they're like they're getting closer to that physically, their proximity.

[23:35] Portia Pendleton: And then she gets also during this time of that, they're about to lose everything. So then she's getting a call. She has to walk away. They're like, Kendall, we need to we got to go. But I thought it was, like, a nice moment for the three of them. It seemed like they trauma bonded, and then they kind of go off to try to stop what's happening. But I want to rewatch that moment. I don't know why. I just thought it was nice. And I do too.

[24:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: I, like, want to, like, reanalyze it, you know, because I think you're right, I think. And again, it's like, kudos to the creators and the writers and the actors for getting that body language, the staging of how far away are the siblings? And they come close, and then they get pulled away, and it's so good. You are really depicting this so well. I'm just so impressed Kendall has, which.

[24:30] Portia Pendleton: Again, I thought just was so great, them walking away like Shiv. And shiv is still the most put together. Roman's hair, because it always kind of is a little disheveled. And then Kendall, we see him with all the dried, like, mud, right, like, on his pants, and he's just, like, kind of shuffling. And again, he just looks broken. He looks like a broken one.

[24:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: He does. He needs to be admitted to an inpatient psychiatric unit, like, yesterday. I'm just so worried for him. But of course, he gets taken to a hospital and cleared and goes home that day. Right. Because it's probably like, oh, I just fell asleep. I had too many mimosas or lemon cellos or whatever they were drinking. But I'm like, yeah, being intoxicated contributed, but I also think it tracks.

[25:17] Portia Pendleton: Oh, yeah, he's at risk.

[25:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Super.

[25:19] Portia Pendleton: And we saw that all the way through the beginning, the glancing down the building.

[25:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I'd be surprised if that was the first time this happened for him.

[25:30] Portia Pendleton: So, Roman, in season three, we had two responses.

[25:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I want to hear about yours.

[25:36] Portia Pendleton: So I liked him the least until I think this is the most, I haven't liked him in a season. So I still thought the moments with Jerry were, like, funny, interesting, ha ha, light. And then I really liked him making the decision to get in the car, to go to kind of to challenge Logan in the last episode. But I felt like his behavior in this season was really disgusting, and I know it has been before. It just really bothered me. I liked him the least overall. I will say, after watching the final episode, I like him again. I don't know that helped, but during all of the inner episodes, I really, really was upset with him, and I.

[26:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Had the opposite reaction, where I really liked him a lot better than Kendall. I don't know, I guess I felt like he was finally getting a chance. I think Roman probably has the greatest amount of genuine love for Logan. Of all the siblings, I don't think that's healthy. I think they have a very sadomasochistic bond with Logan, hurting him and Roman taking it as like a way of feeling close to him. But I feel like finally with Kendall so ostracized, it was like Roman finally got a chance to kind of shine. And I guess that started at the end of season two when he went overseas. And then there was that weird terrorist breakdown or hold down or whatever, and.

[27:16] Portia Pendleton: Carl was like, I just want you to know I'm having a panic attack.

[27:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's like, you would never be able to tell, but I am. When that happened, I was like, did Logan orchestrate this? Is he trying to keep Roman out of here? Is he trying to kill Roman? Is he trying to create some things to get press about, like, oh, Roman Roy almost dies and to take the heat off. But I don't know, I guess I felt like again, the businessy words go above my head a lot of the times. But it seemed like Logan was actually taking Roman's opinions into consideration, and that Roman, it turns out, has good instincts about things, like when he would go to try to make deals, like even that one overseas in season two. And they comes back and he's like, it's not going to happen. I feel like he has a good read on people. So then I started thinking like, is he the surprise smart one? Is he the one who all along should have been listened to and hasn't been? So I think that was the part where I was like and then the way he can talk to the president, he can talk to the fancy people and sort of move things along. I don't know, I guess I was like, good for you, Roman. Like the underdog coming through. But then he is like awful in so many other ways.

[28:31] Portia Pendleton: So the one thing about, I think borderline that I just was kind of recalling when I was thinking about Roman in season three is that your symptoms become more severe when you're activated by uncomfortable emotions or pressure or something that's intense. And I think him being now like the golden child with his dad is so much pressure, so much pressure. He doesn't want to give this up. He's also just like around, it seems like his dad a lot. And so I think that his Bpd traits are stronger where he is idolizing his dad so much. I think he always has. I think it's like we're seeing it so obviously here the devaluation of others, including Shiv, which I feel like they have this, again, kind of gross, but banter. That feels normal for them.

[29:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's like a gross, like old boys club, but it's like their daughter and sister. So it's really gross, right?

[29:29] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, it feels like for me, like Roman more so which again, I don't know why I'm saying this, because then I'm thinking back to season. One, and I disagree. But he crosses the line more. I felt like in season three with doing things and saying things that I was more disgusted with.

[29:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you think maybe it was because in other seasons he'd done that with random people and now it's like his siblings sure. Like the way he treated Kendall at the birthday party was so gross. And shiv was shiv the whole time.

[29:59] Portia Pendleton: So that's when it came out, I think that the company was having Kendall's kids followed and talked to and Shiv was like, what? That's disgusting. And Roman was like, we knew. What do you mean? Yeah, that's what happens, right? There was this weird kind of rift or separation going on, that morality.

[30:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, we were talking about how in some ways it seemed like Kendall's becoming more and more like Logan, even like when they're wearing the exact same navy hat and these little details. But he's becoming like him with being so ruthless, like trying to make that deal with that investor, even when his dad's like, having a medical emergency. That's what his dad would do and wants him to do. But from the outside, that's so gross. Roman is also becoming like Logan in that way of just this really warped sense of morality, of any sense at all. And I think Shiv is really put off by it, but then she doesn't have a great moral compass either. So that's where it's all really interesting to me. What things each of the siblings are like, that's too far, but then the other one's like, no, that's too far. And you're like, it's been too far along, guys.

[31:14] Portia Pendleton: And we see. Just like I thought it was like a funny cultural kind of poking at when they are at the which I'm assuming because Shiv is a liberal and she went to the dark side, quote unquote. So they're at the Republican kind of small convention where all the rich people pick the nominees and Shiv is having a really hard time with one of the people that they're interested in or that Roman really likes because she's like, he's horrible, he's despicable, he's doing all these things and she's like drawing the line there.

[31:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, she doesn't want to get in the photo.

[31:47] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[31:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then Logan says to her, are you part of this family or not? And that is like such a veiled threat. Right. Because then you're going to be like.

[31:55] Portia Pendleton: Kendall, right, who's not here. Exactly.

[31:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then when they're trying to pick the nominee and the guy they were all thinking about, remember, they're like, he licks his lips a lot. Yeah, just these little things. And it's like, of course that's what they're worried about. Not the guy they end up going with who's, like, supports Nazis and it's really terrible. They're worried about the guy who licks his lips too much. But of course they are. They're narcissists, like, of course.

[32:22] Portia Pendleton: And it's really so clear that they just want someone who can do what they want to because that guy initially right? He's, like, call room service, right, for the coke. And then Roman tips off the other guy to go bring him a Coke. And he does. And then they're like, oh, he's in. And it's just like really?

[32:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. But that's what I mean with Roman, where he did tip off the guy. So that's where I feel like he was moving and shaken in a way that I was impressed by. And then I was like, Whoa, gross. Why am I impressed? Right? Like I was like, what's?

[33:02] Portia Pendleton: Kind of attractive?

[33:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, whoa. Whoa. Why am I maybe it felt like.

[33:08] Portia Pendleton: He'S having more control or he's, like, finally getting out from under he thinks he's getting out from under the thumb, but he's still under it.

[33:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or, like, even more, I think. So.

[33:23] Portia Pendleton: It'S not because his Bpd treats were coming out more that I didn't like him in this episode. In this episode. I think maybe it's just how he treated Shiv, to be quite honest. Maybe that's what just really bothered me, because it was so I feel like, again, her moral compass is skewed. However, she has the hardest time kind of dealing with politics, some sexual assault stuff. She knows that she's being kind of used as, like, the face where she's a female, so she should go here again, like, morally gray. But then it's like, Kendall's kids. She's like, this is a line. Why are we crying?

[34:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: The family. Yeah, she'll go talk to the whistleblower and convince her not to testify. But the family there's something that seems like it should be off limits, whereas Roman that's not even off limits. Right. I'm so eager to hear your thoughts about the evolution of Roman and Jerry's relationship, if we want to call it that.

[34:23] Portia Pendleton: I was, like, happy for it as it was building. And part of it just because I thought it was, like, comedic relief, totally on the surface, like, not seeing the why or why this is problematic. But I think it was just, like, a funny side story. She almost seemed in this season to be more manipulative.

[34:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Jerry yeah.

[34:50] Portia Pendleton: So at first I thought it was kind of like, I don't know, maybe she's maybe she's into this a little interesting and likes a young guy and keeps her jumping.

[35:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I kept wondering, she has to have no wife because she's always floating around with them. But then it turns out she's got daughters.

[35:06] Portia Pendleton: I was like, and this boyfriend and boyfriend.

[35:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I felt like Roman really did want to marry her, be in a relationship, and she's just like, Whoa, Roman, no.

[35:19] Portia Pendleton: Well, and we see him do this with a couple. With one other person or two, I think two other females that he is kind of like, in this relationship with in season one and two. He's like, well, **** it. Let's just get married. They do this and they're like, we've never had sex. No. Or, that's really way too fast. And again with Bpd, it's like, okay, idolizing them. He's impulsive. I think he gets his sense of self through others. I don't think he has a strong sense of self. I think so badly.

[35:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[35:52] Portia Pendleton: Security and attachment in a relationship, and he doesn't really get that.

[35:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, I think. Exactly. He wants it so badly, but he's also terrified of it. That's why I think legitimate intimacy is unsafe or feels unsafe to him. But he's like, let's just get married, and then I'll have you. You can't leave me. And yet the women he's saying that to aren't the type who just say, okay, yeah, right. They're the type who are like, well, this isn't actually cutting it for me. So in that way, he is attracting women who will then reject him.

[36:24] Portia Pendleton: Which is interesting because thinking of all the women out there who he may come across, who wouldn't just be like, yeah, I'll marry you 100%.

[36:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what I mean. But again, that's like, where the creators and writers and everyone involved in this show got it so right. Because he's so rejected by his mother and now he's being rejected by Jerry. He's been rejected by all these other people. He's always rejected by his dad. That's what he knows. He could find any number of girl who would like a willa. Exactly.

[36:57] Portia Pendleton: To be honest.

[36:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly.

[36:59] Portia Pendleton: But we kind of talked about how Jerry, for him, is maybe safe because she's unattainable, the age difference, the position in the company. So maybe he feels like she's safe. They poke fun, which we talked about last episode at how he wants to have sex with his mother, but it's.

[37:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Frequently it's, like, really legit and really obvious and out there. And he was the only one who was, like, really upset about the mom deciding to get married again and being really concerned about the prenup and everything. Right. So I think that's just really interesting.

[37:33] Portia Pendleton: So how did you react when you saw that he sent Logan the **** pic?

[37:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.

[37:41] Portia Pendleton: We saw it.

[37:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm going to say I loved the way all that played out, like, comedically. I don't think that's appropriate, but I was like, how did that mix up happen? Did he have Freudian? Was it like right, so someone texted him, well done, Roman. I thought it was Jerry texting him that.

[38:06] Portia Pendleton: So maybe he so badly wanted it to be Logan that that's why he responded. I mean, but then it got so.

[38:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Someone says, well done, Logan. We think it's coming from Jerry.

[38:16] Portia Pendleton: Well done, Roman.

[38:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sorry. Well done, Roman. Write the text. We think it's coming from Jerry. So then he texts back, and he's doing it right there in the boardroom, like, under the table, right there. Not going to the bath. Like, right there. There's still people milling around right and then all of a sudden it shows up on Logan's phone. So I was like, did he get the number mixed up or did he.

[38:35] Portia Pendleton: Just see him sliding down in his chair? He makes eye contact with his dad and kind of like, shrugs.

[38:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like he's like stripped away. And then when his dad calls him in and he's like, can you imagine just how humiliating and what are you, a sicko? And it's like, yeah, I don't know. He's like, it's just a **** pick, dad people do, like people do **** picks, whatever. And then when Shiv uses that opportunity to corner Jerry right. I was just like, oh, my God, this is all just but Jerry didn't seem phased.

[39:10] Portia Pendleton: No, because I don't think anything phases Jerry. I think that she is like a secret not secret. She's something.

[39:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: She's a sociopath or something with just like no feelings, I feel.

[39:30] Portia Pendleton: Yes, because I don't know how else or has developed a coping skill to be in here, like you said, for decades. That's not typical to survive. And she doesn't seem like Frank. Where Frank has put himself in positions or challenged Logan, it seems like that's why he was fired and brought on and brought back and then he joins Team Kendall. Jerry is never in that position. She's always the right hand. She always knows what to say. I feel like even in a sense, I've never seen Logan be horrible to her. He's yelled at her and carry it over here or whatever, telling her to f off. But they seem like the most professional they're able to have this professional relationship where I don't see him abuse her in the way he abuses Carl and Frank and everyone else.

[40:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, I agree with you. And I think I wonder if she is like his female equivalent in a way, because she's the general counsel, so she's like on their attorney, basically. So she knows everything. Right. It's not that she didn't know about Cruz. She didn't know about this. She knows everything. She has known everything for decades.

[40:41] Portia Pendleton: I don't think Logan have had sex. I don't get a roman about it. It seems like.

[40:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Because she's like his age.

[40:52] Portia Pendleton: Exactly. That's the appropriate man.

[40:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. That's what I mean. That's why he hasn't right. He's always going for the younger one, so that's why he doesn't see her as that kind of object. And I bet she hasn't really disagreed with him or she has, like, stuck around. Right. Like, I think what's interesting to me about Logan and thinking about the kids and somewhere in there some character said this and I was like, that is exactly right. Where it's like Logan pits them all against each other to see who's going to stick around, I think, because he's so afraid of trust and loyalty and all that stuff. And then at the very end, when the kids are in the car, they're going I was like, yes.

[41:37] Portia Pendleton: You'Re uniting.

[41:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're going to take it over. You're going to throw him out. Like, why haven't you done this earlier, Roman? I was like, I think he's really going to be on board this time. Although I'm a little nervous the dad will get to him and then the dad doesn't get to him. I was, like, really proud of Roman, I think, for being able to with.

[41:54] Portia Pendleton: And you can see that happening in Roman's head.

[41:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, you might see the kind of mental battle oh, my God, so well. And then when they realize that somehow the dad has gone to their mom to get the shares, so now he doesn't need them, and their plan has been foiled. And then Roman goes to Jerry, and on his with her on his knees, right. Again, perfection. On his knees is like, please help us. Help us. And she says something like, what's in it for me? I exploded.

[42:29] Portia Pendleton: If Roman was listening, which I think he was, but if he was listening and actually had a view of a therapist, which he doesn't, she has said that to him throughout this entire time. Right. She said, every decision you make, you have to ask yourself, what's in it for me? She's, like, coaching him on this the entire time. She's talked about, we need boundaries for this. I feel like almost, in a way, it's like Roman didn't see any of that. He didn't want to. He couldn't idealizing her. Yeah. And so then she had the response that I don't think should have been surprising.

[43:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: But that's what they all do, right?

[43:08] Portia Pendleton: They keep coming back, they keep getting kicked. They go to their mom for support. It's like, over and over and over again. They think, these people who should right? She's like a mentor.

[43:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: They should, but they don't. Like, yes, you should be able to trust your parents or the people in the company. Again. I bet they've known Jerry since they were kids.

[43:30] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Forget Jerry carl.

[43:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Frank. When they when the adult kid I keep calling them kids, but when the sibling yeah. Walked in and saw all the flutter and chaos of, like, the dad, like, making the deal to get bought out. What betrayal. Yeah. What betrayal? Oh, my God. That really broke my heart. And then we see Tom, and I was like, I knew it, I knew it. I called him from the start, and interestingly, you didn't pick that up right away.

[44:11] Portia Pendleton: No, I didn't even pick it up on the episode. So we talked about this a little bit before we started recording, and I had literally no idea that Tom had anything to do with that. So I don't know what that says.

[44:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think you just really want to see the good in people. And I don't trust anyone, maybe. I don't know. It was like, in this whole season, right? It felt like the Roy family wanted to maintain their company and buy other companies to grow bigger and fix their debt situation, maybe get some private investments. Pick the next president who is like anti tech for a while, but he.

[44:51] Portia Pendleton: Seems so dumb, like, Logan, what are you doing?

[44:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, because he's like in the Dark.

[44:56] Portia Pendleton: Age, not on board. I know.

[44:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Until he realizes he's got to get on board. And then that Adrian Brody character, that shareholder who they fly out to, points it out.

[45:10] Portia Pendleton: So that's two people so him. And then the guy who is in.

[45:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Scarsgard yeah, he was in some vampire.

[45:17] Portia Pendleton: Show where everyone was freaking out because you saw him nude years ago. So then he also points out Logan's Fragility and just like where the company needs to grow and stuff like that. And I thought that that was really interesting just for Logan to hear two and the second guy, and I think more so, really successful. He knows that they're next. And I think he kind of comes to the conclusion that Waystar has to do something and they can't just stick to the status quo.

[45:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it's sad because his kids have been telling him that, but I know in all different ways he can't hear it from them, I think, because, again, I think that would shatter his sense of self. But hearing it from these other white dudes who are successful on their own and have a stake or something, at least the Adrian Brody character had a stake in the company. This other guy didn't. Right. They wanted to maybe buy his company, then they were going to be co owners and then, oh, actually, we're going to sell somehow he could hear that, remember? And then when he asked Roman to leave, I was like, oh, no. But then Roman doesn't tell anyone.

[46:28] Portia Pendleton: I know. And Roman still acts, which again, it doesn't help him to do these things.

[46:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[46:34] Portia Pendleton: But he needs to have Logan's support and he needs to believe that he is Logan's right hand man. So he's not going to do what would honestly help him and benefit.

[46:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: They should have gotten plan in motion and called their mom then, right? They should have done all that. But I don't think he's capable. Right. In season one, he says at the wedding, like, I have borderline personality disorder or something, he's definitely demonstrating the traits. I don't think he can hold on to both of those things at the same time about his dad. He can't.

[47:06] Portia Pendleton: Right. It's either dad, right, is idealized, or he devalued and it shifts back and forth and it really just shifts at the last second when he's standing in the room. Yes, he makes the decision to get in the van with them. Yes, he makes the decision to go to the meeting, but he has to decide in front of his dad right. To align himself with his siblings.

[47:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

[47:25] Portia Pendleton: Logan asks Roman to have Kendall leave and Roman's like, no, right.

[47:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's like, finally you guys are united. Like, I wish they would have united earlier, but then we wouldn't get this great TV.

[47:36] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[47:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I think we want to wrap up by talking about Shiv. And it's interesting, right? Because I feel like in all of our episodes so far about succession, we talk about her a little bit, but not a lot. And that's like right. In parallel with her role in this family.

[47:51] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[47:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: She's just also kind of forgotten, like, Connor not quite as much, but she's a girl and yeah. I don't know, I just am so curious. Like, what if she'd been a boy?

[48:02] Portia Pendleton: She plays the role of the girl in the family with all the boys in the patriarchy really well, most of.

[48:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: The time, but she is in a lot more skirts.

[48:14] Portia Pendleton: I think she purposely separates herself right. To do politics, because that way she is respected, she is in power, she is making decisions. And then, of course, she wants to be the CEO or the chairman of Wastar. But then when that seems like it's not happening, you just see her feel so much kind of thrown away more and more and more and more. And I think she can't understand why Roman, who again, has no experience doing anything, it seems like that's why Jerry was like, you need to do the management program. And Shiv has a career. Again, I see her as attending school. I see her as getting really good grades. I see her as just, like, finesse. I might have to come in and finesse.

[48:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm so shocked she doesn't have an eating disorder. Are you shocked?

[49:07] Portia Pendleton: I feel like she probably binges and purges in secret, and it's just like, not a big deal. It's just like what everybody does.

[49:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but I'm shocked. We haven't talked about yet. Maybe we'll get there, but I feel like she would, given the environment and everything we're talking about, but of course, right.

[49:25] Portia Pendleton: Like, such a female. And again, just because she is a female in the family, and I think it's just I don't know how they could have written her character better.

[49:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[49:35] Portia Pendleton: So we see her and Tom's relationship really interesting. I thought maybe you could speak to what you think it's like for Tom being in a relationship with I don't know if you would consider this accurate. Like a bigger narcissist. This is what I think. I think Tom has some stronger attachment abilities.

[50:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[50:02] Portia Pendleton: And Shiv does not. Whether or not he's narcissistic doesn't matter in the fact that he's still trying to attach to this person. Even if there's an ulterior motive, he still wants a connection. Like, he loves her. I think he wants a relationship, and I don't think she literally can have one.

[50:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[50:18] Portia Pendleton: I think he does a really good job coming out.

[50:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think, with Tom, I always felt like there's something going on here and even in this season, some people would ask, why are you a Shiv? He kept getting on Greg's case, wanting to ask this girl out, that girl out. And he almost, like, coaching Greg, like, you got to go up. And that's kind of like what he did, right? So I still am dying to know how they met. I wonder if it was, like, in school or if it was, like, online dating, which I could also see, honestly.

[50:51] Portia Pendleton: Like, on what's it called? Raya.

[50:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that riah, whatever it is. But I think he does a really good job portraying himself as, like, I'm a good guy from the Midwest and, like, a humble guy and stuff like that, but I just don't think he is. From the beginning, when he saw Logan being incapacitated in the hospital and thinking, okay, now is the time to propose, I just think he wants to attach to Shiv because she is Shiv Roy. I don't think he would if she didn't have that name and that potential for power. He wants to be the head of it. And in what world does he have that right? All of these the three siblings are so grossly entitled in an experience that it's laughable. But in what world does Tom from Nowhere have a right and think that because he married Shiv now he's owed? Anytime she's making moves, he's like, well, where do I stand? Where do I stand? Where do I stand? And I think season two, I sort of softened on him a bit because I felt like, well, maybe he does really love her, and now she wants this open marriage, and he didn't want that. He's saying he loves her. I think he can say all the right things. I don't think he means that.

[52:03] Portia Pendleton: You think he can get her hurt? Because that's what I'm picking up on. I guess it's like, I feel sorry for him, or I feel more empathy for him when I feel like Shiv has hurt him.

[52:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, you see it in his eyes, like, when they were having sex or going that way, and they're talking dirty, and she says really cutting things, like, I don't love you, but that's why you love me, like, those sorts of things. And then the next day he says that it hurts him. I don't know yet. I think we need to watch season four and see how it unfolds, because I think part of me thinks he's hurt, but the other part of me thinks he's manipulating her to get what he wants. So I don't know yet. But then at least the way I interpreted the very end was all the siblings were shocked. Like, how did he get to mom? He knew we were coming. Like, how did he know? How did he know? Roman didn't tell anyone. Kendall didn't tell anyone. Shiv told Tom because she thought she could trust him. And then all of a sudden, here comes Tom.

[53:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And we see. So I remember now that you say that, like, then Tom meeting with Greg, right. And like, yes, tom saying these things. And so your interpretation is that Greg then called Logan.

[53:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Logan. So in the moment before we saw Tom at the end, I thought Tom was telling Greg about the siblings uniting and wanting him to come on that side, like, go with the siblings. And then Greg was like, can you tell me what this is about? And he's like, no. And I thought it was that. But now I think Tom told Greg to tip off Logan so then he could still be sort of distant from it and clean. But I think that's how Logan figured it out. I don't know if you remember, but when Shiv sees Tom walking in, logan pats his arm like, Good job.

[53:49] Portia Pendleton: Which he would never do.

[53:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: He would never do. Except when Tom said he would go to jail. Then he said, good job. You know what I mean?

[53:58] Portia Pendleton: And then when he called him son but he was having udi.

[54:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[54:01] Portia Pendleton: And then that's when Tom was like something.

[54:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's when something was like, I think he's ill, but in that way, I think what a fascinating depiction of Shiv basically marrying her dad and Roman, like.

[54:15] Portia Pendleton: Being attracted to his mom and Shiv marrying her dad, then ******** her.

[54:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And when Tom comes up to Shiv and you see her, like, shudder, I got chills. Just the way that Sarah Snook, the actress, portrayed it. I got chills.

[54:33] Portia Pendleton: I have to watch that last scene again. I feel like I didn't pick up on that.

[54:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was so intense. And then the discussion between Shiv and her mom oh, my God.

[54:43] Portia Pendleton: That I think it was such helpful back story gives you just such a good look at the relationship, even for all of them, because it alludes to the fact that the mom left them for money or for the shares or for something like it was a business. They were a business transaction.

[54:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, exactly. They were objects even to the mom. And Shiv was like, Mom, I was ten.

[55:04] Portia Pendleton: Right?

[55:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was ten. And she's trying to say, like, oh, I had a really hard time watching that scene. But again, expertly written, someone on that cast must unfortunately have a mother like.

[55:16] Portia Pendleton: That to write it.

[55:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: That perfectly right. Whoever you are, like, I'm sorry, and I hope you have your own therapy.

[55:24] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I thought it was so sad. And also interesting how Shiv has been very firm on no kids. And then after talking with her mom, it's like, now she's considering having children.

[55:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: But only, like, freeze the Empress.

[55:38] Portia Pendleton: Tom seems very into it, which I don't see as him wanting kids. I think he wants, like, ties to Forever.

[55:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I totally agree. And he was even trying to impregnate her when he was about to go to prison. That's what I mean is I think he's a snake.

[55:54] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[55:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think it's starting to come out. And I don't think he's genuine. I don't think he actually wants to be with her or have her children and have a family. I think he wants the money and the power and the heirs.

[56:07] Portia Pendleton: Which is so sad for Shiv.

[56:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[56:10] Portia Pendleton: Because she thought because I think she thought that she had the power.

[56:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[56:15] Portia Pendleton: Like tricking her all time.

[56:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I know.

[56:20] Portia Pendleton: But I also don't think that anyone else could be with her. Right. Someone else would have to have that ulterior motive in order to cope with.

[56:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: How she treats exactly.

[56:29] Portia Pendleton: Like she's not treating you well. Which I'm not making an excuse for. But then most years, Tom has stayed.

[56:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Like, why did he stay after the wedding night? It's because he wants the power, the money, all of it. Right. That's what he wants. And even, like, impregnating her so she can't cheat on him or leave him or whatever. Even if she does leave him, if he went to prison, he'd still be tied. He'd get child support or spousals or whatever. Oh, my gosh. It's chilling.

[57:00] Portia Pendleton: I think it's a good depiction of narcissism and Bpd of showing both sides of the person.

[57:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[57:08] Portia Pendleton: Because people who are narcissistic, people who have, of course, borderline we know this more of but can still get hurt. Still sad.

[57:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Very deeply. Very deeply.

[57:17] Portia Pendleton: I think we're used to just like narcissistic. Oh, they're a narcissist. Like, they're whole, they're jerks. They don't seem to have feelings. Like no, they're not sociopathic or psychopathic, where it's like there's no feelings. No, these are people who have been deeply wounded and continue to hurt others and continue to get hurt. We see them get wounded over and over and over again.

[57:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: So that's why it's like this, back.

[57:40] Portia Pendleton: And forth, like right. We hate them, we feel sorry for them. We hate them.

[57:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: We feel sorry. Exactly. I totally agree. And just such an expert portrayal in that. And the way they sort of give you more info about their childhoods, about their upbringing along the way, slowly, that helps you really see how they got there. Right. And that's always one of the most fascinating things when I'm watching shows. Like, this is like, how did you get to be that kind of person? And then as we wrap up, as we always do, we forget Connor. He's forgotten. But I just had to acknowledge that scene where he's like, I'm the first born son. I'm the oldest son. It's me. It's not you. It's like he's carried that rage with.

[58:21] Portia Pendleton: Him his whole life, and he can't so, interestingly enough, it's like Roman and Shiv in that moment, have the whatever. Whether you want to call it awareness, whether you want to call it intellectualism. But they are there because of Kendall, right. And they want him to get help with the suicide. And it's. Like, Connor cannot stay there. He makes it about himself. And people still don't say helpful things, but Connor has this huge reaction when they're trying to be there for Kendall because he almost killed himself, right.

[58:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: And trying to say, we love you. We are worried for you. Please get them up. But you're right. Connor can't stay there. And Connor is probably most threatened by Kendall because Kendall is the secondborn son, who then becomes, like, the first in line.

[59:12] Portia Pendleton: And we see Kendall's style shift right throughout season one to three. He's wearing a T shirt with kind of a necklace with a big emblem on it. We see him shave his head. We see the sunglasses, cool sunglasses. And I think I want to hop back onto Connor because Connor and he proposes to Willa. Then he also gets really mad at them. Right. Because no one said congratulations, and I hear that. Right. But first of all, you're paying her. And no one knew that she said yes because she didn't say yes.

[59:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then he was like, everyone's looking willow. Can you at least pretend, like, through gritted teeth? It's just all growth.

[59:52] Portia Pendleton: And then the audacity that he has to believe that he can be the president, he's like, oh, well, we have 1%. You know what 1% is? A lot of people when we look at the US.

[01:00:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's a good chunk of people. But then when he is like, they're going to dig up stuff on, you willa remember. And basically using that to bully her into marrying him.

[01:00:19] Portia Pendleton: But there's something to the child.

[01:00:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[01:00:23] Portia Pendleton: She can leave at any time.

[01:00:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. Just like Tom, just like Jerry, just like all of them, but they stay. So it is just this, like, moth to the flame kind of situation.

[01:00:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[01:00:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, boy. Man, this show is amazing. It's really good. Really intense. Again, I hope they have therapists on set to cope with playing these characters. I'd be really worried if any of them are just sometimes they're like it's kind of actually me. So I'm just like being myself in this character. Like, I'd be very concerned about that.

[01:00:55] Portia Pendleton: I keep seeing Brian *** do some commercials now.

[01:00:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[01:00:59] Portia Pendleton: I think it's like it's funny, like.

[01:01:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Alcohol commercial or something. I'm like that's spot on. Yeah.

[01:01:05] Portia Pendleton: But I really like what's his name? Culkin.

[01:01:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Kieran Colton.

[01:01:12] Portia Pendleton: I think he's, like, my favorite actor and character in the show as of season three.

[01:01:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. Again, I hate him. I love him.

[01:01:23] Portia Pendleton: I hate him. I love him. And let's think about Bpd, right?

[01:01:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's how people feel, 100%. But also thinking about Kieran Culkin personally was always in the shadow of Macaulay Culkin. So that's just fascinating. Like, is any of what he's bringing to the role tied to his personal experience? Like, unclear, but fascinating.

[01:01:43] Portia Pendleton: Fascinating.

[01:01:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: So if you could all just like our podcast and follow us and boost our numbers so we could someday interview him and ask him these hard hitting questions, that'd be awesome, because I just want to pick all their so make.

[01:01:57] Portia Pendleton: Sure if you haven't listened to some of our other episodes, we cover some movies and other TV shows. So scroll down to see if you've watched any of the things that we talk about. And make sure to join us over on TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast. We make some, I think, funny content over there that is different from that we talk about here and our instagram at Analyze Scripts.

[01:02:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, and we will see you next Monday. All right, bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we analyze the 2013 psychological thriller "Side Effects." Did ya'll remember that Channing Tatum was in this movie becauwe we didn't and it was a nice surprise! Too bad he died. In this episode, we explore Rooney Mara's portrayal of what we initially believe is major depressive disorder but then discover is actually manipulative behavior more consistent with malingering of a sociopathic level. We also discuss all sorts of medications and their side effects, including antidepressants, mood stabilizers, and antipsychotics. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy.

[00:57] Portia Pendleton: Today we're going to be talking about side effects, which I had never seen before, which I think some people might find, like, shocking. This is like a movie about a lot. Therapy, mental health, medications.

[01:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[01:11] Portia Pendleton: So we're going to be talking about that today. I'm really excited, and I kind of just wanted to say briefly, wow. Like, Channing Tatum was in it, and I was like, is this why everyone watches the movie? Hello, Andrew Law?

[01:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[01:27] Portia Pendleton: How long did it take you to figure out who was running the show?

[01:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I've seen this movie several times. The first time not till the very end. I remember being really surprised. What about you?

[01:41] Portia Pendleton: Same.

[01:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, right. I didn't get it the first time I watched it, I thought I think I thought this was supposed to be a medication side effect. And that was like the whole premise. And then when they got into the insider trading and all this stuff, I was like, oh, whoa. Yeah, I didn't see that coming at all. And then when I rewatched it before recording this episode, I remembered the plot. And so I was really watching Rooney Mars character a lot more closely to see if I could pick up on sort of subtle things that would suggest she was malingering. And they even used that word correctly, which is kind of feigning symptoms for what we call secondary gain, which means, like, to get out of work or to get money in a settlement or to stay out of prison or stuff like that. What did you think about Rooney mara's portrayal of what we think at first is a woman with depression?

[02:41] Portia Pendleton: I thought it was great. I thought it also shows how we can be, like, functional.

[02:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[02:48] Portia Pendleton: So she's working, she is dressed well, but behind the scenes, like someone who's really suffering with kind of it appears, maybe more like major depressive disorders. She's having these episodes versus kind of more persistent depressive disorder, which would just be like persistent depressive depression with periods that you can also have major depressive disorder popping into.

[03:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And they allude to again, I think we'll talk about her before the twist. So when we think she's just depressed and I'm saying just depressed, not to minimize the depression, but because there's more that comes out later, but I thought her eyes. She just looks subdued. She looks sad. She looks flat. She's not really super joyful. Even when they get him out of prison, she hugs him and stuff, but there's not a lot of animation there. And again, maybe that's just her personality, but she does have this suicide attempt where she rams her car into a wall in a parking garage, and when Channing goes to the hospital, he's like, oh, I thought we moved past this to suggest, like, this has happened before. And that's where she meets Jude Law's character, Dr. Banks, in the Er as the psychiatrist evaluating her.

[04:08] Portia Pendleton: So what did you think of that?

[04:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Who was he evaluating before her?

[04:12] Portia Pendleton: Oh, the man who was kind of delusional. No, I'm sorry. He was not delusional.

[04:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: He was Haitian. Yes.

[04:18] Portia Pendleton: And so he had seen the ghost of his father driving a cab, and so he kind of attacked the cab.

[04:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm glad I brought that up, because I remembered that's a good portrayal. I think that's something we do learn about in our training is putting the symptoms of various mental health conditions within a cultural context, because sometimes what we might think of in the American culture as delusional, like seeing ghosts of relatives who have recently died in other cultures, is not it's, like, normal in those cultures. So that was an interesting depiction of that. And again, an interesting depiction of a black man in New York City coming in and speaking a language the officer can't understand and wanting to sort of restrain him or punish him or take him to jail. And the doctor, in this case, being able to apparently speak French or Creole I think it was French and get a sense for what's really going on and keep him out of jail. So that's an example of not malingering. That's not malingering. That's like the law psychiatry or mental health interface, like, working appropriately.

[05:32] Portia Pendleton: That was really great, and I thought it was just, like, a good check mark for him, for his character.

[05:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And then now that we're talking about it, like a really interesting juxtaposition to him then moving next door, wherever, and evaluating Emily. Again, a white woman, someone later calls her, like, a fragile bird, attractive and just I guess you're right. I do pick up a lot on the background or the setting. I didn't love that. He didn't close the curtain right away. He starts the interview standing over her. I didn't love that. Just, again, like, a man towering over you and you're feeling really emotional and vulnerable. I don't love sit down so you're level. Don't get too close, though. I like that he didn't get too close. I think eventually he sat. Eventually he closes the curtain. I thought his line of questioning was pretty good in the way that she was saying, like, oh, my head hurts. They said I might have a concussion. And he's like, well, we got to wait for the CT scan. How's your head been lately? That's kind of weird. That's kind of a clunky thing to say. He didn't introduce himself as a psychiatrist right away. I'm not sure why or if that was intentional to see again. Maybe he already suspected she'd withhold things. If he did so, maybe he wanted to see if she'd reveal anything before she knew. That. That, to me now that I'm saying it should have been his first sign that something was off here. He says to her, usually when someone's in a car accident, there's skid marks. You try to avoid hitting the wall, but you went right for the wall. So to us, that suggests a suicide attempt. I can't believe she wasn't hospitalized.

[07:27] Portia Pendleton: Well, that was what I was thinking. I was like, she didn't come in with kind of a thought of suicide and now is presenting, after waiting in the air for many hours as safe and has a caregiver or a partner and is evaluated and is sent home and non hospitalized. That happens a lot. Maybe sometimes it shouldn't, but this was an attempt, and this was a really serious attempt.

[07:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like she rammed her car into the wall. I thought, though, that they did a good job portraying what we sometimes look for, which is called future oriented, like having plans for the future. Like, oh, no, I can't be outside. I have to go to work tomorrow. My husband just got home. I can't do that. At the same time, when I was working in Ers with evaluating patients like this, I don't care how future oriented you are, when you ram your car into the wall, you need to be hospitalized. And the fact that she was able to talk him out of it when that was his first instinct to me is, like, in retrospect, red flag number one. Yeah, right. The fact that she's like, you have an office, right? I'll come see you a handful of times.

[08:33] Portia Pendleton: And to me, that was red flag number two, because I don't think that that happens often. I don't know of the ethics behind it, but I just don't think that that's typically available.

[08:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: No. Right.

[08:47] Portia Pendleton: Like, you'd be referring to, like, a PHP partial hospitalization program, tense about patient program through your hospital. You know what I mean? That would be the treatment exit.

[08:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not just like, I just ran my car into the walk. I'm going to go see an outpatient psychiatrist. That's not an appropriate level of care for that severe thing that just happened. I think you need at least a couple of days. But again, unfortunately, this should always happen, right? Unfortunately, there's not enough hospital beds. Patients wait and wait and wait in the Er forever. Sometimes insurance won't cover it, even after something like that. I'll never forget my training, working on the inpatient child unit and being told by insurance it was my job to do the peer to peer review because they were denying ongoing a hospitalization for like a twelve year old girl for suicidal thoughts and depression because she hadn't actually attempted anything. So they thought we should discharge her. And it was like, unreal that they told us they're not going to pay for it because she hadn't made an attempt drives me nuts. But anyway, she had made an attempt. She should have been hospitalized. So the fact that she was able to manipulate him into going against his better judgment by appealing to well, I'll see you in your practice. I couldn't tell if he was affiliated with the hospital. It didn't seem like it. It seemed like he was like what we call moonlighting or like picking up.

[10:11] Portia Pendleton: Side shifts, which he does talk about later because he's working all these multiple jobs.

[10:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. So maybe he's like, oh, a patient, oh, a couple of times a week maybe it seems like he needs the money. And then we sort of start seeing her meeting with him. And again, the boundary crossings just continue our favorite. So, yeah, we see her starting to open up to him. He starts talking about medication, which again is is warranted. Yeah. When someone presents with significant symptoms of depression status post a suicide attempt, I think that's when she brings up Dr. Seabird's name, which is played by Katherine Zeta Jones, and she gives consent for them to talk to each other about her case, all of which is normal. And then somehow he sees Dr. Sebert at, like it looks like a pharma. By pharma I mean pharmaceutical company, like dinner or talk or something. And Dr. Sebert like, very casually mentions, oh, oblixa, I did write down, being a psychiatrist, the medications Dr. Sebert said she had tried Emily on, wellbutrin, Prozac affects her, and she apparently had problems with sleep and nausea. So that's interesting because those can be common side effects. And we have medications in different classes. We have Prozac, which is an SSRI, effects are an SNRI, and then Wellbutrin, which has a different mechanism of action in which we think of as sort of in this category of medications called like, atypical antidepressants, which just means, like other they work in different ways. So looking at that, my thought as a psychiatrist is did she have adequate trials on any of these? Like, could she tolerate them long enough to see did they really work because these medications take several weeks to kick in? Or did she stop them pretty early because of side effects? Problems with sleep and nausea are really common early side effects that usually go away if you can stay on it and you can prescribe things to sort of help with that in the early stages. It's weird to me that she was only on one SSRI. Then we jump and again, I'm assuming we started with Prozac because that's typical practice, but maybe we didn't. But then you jumped to an SNRI then you jumped to this other thing. It's pretty atypical to jump around so quickly. And then it sounds like she was taking, as prescribed by Jude Lav's character Zoloft, 100 milligrams, which is a pretty high dose. So pretty high to get to 100 so quickly. Those are kind of my thoughts.

[12:47] Portia Pendleton: Is that dosage more like along the lines of an OCD patient?

[12:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not quite. That's a great question. So usually, like with Zoloft, you start around 50. You could start lower if you've never been on medication before to help ease the side effects as you're starting them, or if it's like, a young person or really thin person, you might start lower. 100 is, like, a pretty good dose for depression. I think the way it was depicted in the movie, I just felt like they got there really quick, which, again, you might want to given the severity of her suicide attempt, but usually you might go a little slower. But maybe again, I'm just assuming this was, like her first dose was 100. OCD definitely responds to higher doses of SSRIs compared to things like anxiety and depression. So for Zoloft, the therapeutic windows anywhere from 50 all the way to, like, 400 milligrams for OCD. Oftentimes people with OCD end up somewhere between two to 400, depending on the situation, but 100 could do it. Okay. Some other early boundary crossings that we see between Emily and Dr. Banks first, not hospitalizing her. The second, I would say, is when she found him. It looks like in it looks like maybe like some common area. So his office must be near the hospital or something. Almost gave me the vibe of, like, a cafeteria or something like that atrium that's right where he was sitting with his wife, who was preparing for a job interview, and he gives her a Pranal, and I thought, oh, gosh, he doesn't have great boundaries. You should never prescribe for your spouse or for someone you know? I mean, do do doctors do that sometimes? I'm sure proprietary is a pretty benign medication, but I think it just speaks to his own poor boundaries and why a patient like Emily might be able to sort of sniff that out and use it to her advantage. So all of a sudden, he gets a call with Emily kind of rambling on the phone, I think after she had tried to maybe jump in front of the subway train. And then the officer saved her at the last minute. But then she shows up as he's.

[15:09] Portia Pendleton: Trying to his wife staring at a poster of oblixa right in the train station for a while, just like looking at it. And then she kind of walks over.

[15:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: To the edge and then toes it. I didn't notice that, but you're probably right, because we'd heard about Oblixa from Dr. Sebert, like, in the scene before, and they kept talking about how you see the ads. You see the ads, and I will say, I hear this all the time from patients. I remember when I started my training, Abilify, there were a lot of ads out there for Abilify, and I had a patient who was like, I want to switch from this medicine. I've been on and been stable on for 20 years to Abilify. So this does come up. I thought that was I wanted to.

[15:49] Portia Pendleton: Ask you, so if a patient comes in and they have seen like, a new medication on TV and it looks and they're excited about it, does that typically make it work better at all? I think Placebo mentioned that in the movie a little bit.

[16:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, you're right, she did. She was like, I think with your positive endorsement, it could work better. I mean, so certainly we know that the placebo effect is real. So by the placebo effect, I mean, they've done studies and stuff where if you give patients, like a sugar tablet, but you say it's an antidepressant or something, then sometimes the patients start to feel better, like they believe in what you're giving them. And that is part of the art of prescribing medications, I think, is not necessarily using that to your advantage. But it's really important when you're prescribing a medication, whether it's for psychiatric issues or something else, to get buy in, right? Like, if you're prescribing a medicine to someone because they have high blood pressure and you want them to work on it with lifestyle modifications, like with diet and exercise, you want to get buy in that all three methods of targeting the problem are going to be effective. So I think that's the kind of thing where if you come to me and I'm like, well, we could give you Zola, but it doesn't really work, are you going to be like, sure, I'll take that.

[17:15] Portia Pendleton: That makes sense. I feel like even with therapy, I think some protocols actually, I don't want to say require, but really you're supposed to kind of speak to the results that have been studied. You're supposed to really kind of like, I don't want to say Hype up the program, but Hype is effective. This works for people, really, to get the bind. So it sounds like it's almost along that line. It's not necessarily like placebo effect in our practice, right? That's a lot of in research trials and stuff like that. But you have to get people's kind of excited to what you're trying to have them do.

[17:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? And I think patients will show up having seen ads and commercials and stuff like that for newer medications and wonder about it and some I mean, gosh talk about like buy in. I mean, the the like people like, make these commercials with the goal of, like, kind of manipulating you into wanting to take this specific medication so they can make money from it. And some of these commercials are really intense.

[18:18] Portia Pendleton: So I thought at this point, in the movie, this was where we were going. Right. I thought like big pharma was like trying to kind of push this pill. I almost felt like in a little bit of a way it was going to be like the oxy. We secretly know that it's not effective or there is this really bad side effect. We're brushing it on the rug, don't tell anyone. Prescribers.

[18:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Push it, push it.

[18:40] Portia Pendleton: But that was not the way this movie ended. But at this point that's what I was thinking.

[18:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that's what I thought too is it was going to be all about Big Pharma. And I think unfortunately, you're right. There are stricter laws now about you see, in the movie pharmaceutical reps taking doctors like out to lunch or dinner. And they talk about how back they could be a quote unquote spokesperson for a pill and be flown out to some conference in an exotic location, give a talk for 15 minutes and have their whole vacation comped. Those sorts of things did used to happen. I didn't get to do any of that because they have these stricter laws which are good. Which are good because they did find like surprise, surprise, doing stuff like that did in fact influence physicians prescribing practices. Which makes sense.

[19:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And I was thinking same along the lines of this used to be a big practice for residential treatment centers, doing kind of the same thing with big pharma as big Pharma. So they would invite you to come tour their facility in Palm Beach and then you're going to refer your patients with substance use disorders there. It really primarily was kind of a big business with substance use all around this kind of same time.

[20:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[20:01] Portia Pendleton: I feel like this is really popular to do. They want kind of to push patients. And now we are seeing and have seen the effects of this. So specifically talk a little bit about the state of Florida kind of being famous for having a lot of rehab centers. There was kind of in the news, a lot of unethical drug testing. So they'd be billing at really high rates these really expensive complex blood tests and labs and that's kind of how they're getting paid. And all these people have ended up in Florida and then kind of like homeless and then using drugs. Again, like a halfway highland houses. There's this whole pipeline.

[20:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's very interesting that's the thing is, unfortunately, there is a nefarious pipeline. Where? I don't remember all the details, but unfortunately there have been then, like, big business partnerships, I guess, between a rehab center and a halfway house or where the patient would go afterwards, where then the patient does rehab. They pay out the wazoo they charge for these tests, like you're saying. Then they go to this halfway house that's contracted with the rehab center. And then the halfway house, they get reintroduced to the drug, sometimes on purpose. I think that's the most nefarious egregious thing that's come out. I mean, how disgusting is that? And then they go back to the rehab and it's just a cycle, and it's all for money making, and that just makes me want to vomit.

[21:25] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, it's horrible. And I think that's right. And we've seen that with Big Pharma too, and that's why we don't get this anymore.

[21:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I thought this was going to be like a movie, like anti Big Pharma. Anyway, we got derailed, but hey, big Pharma. So Emily somehow finds where he is in the atrium again, like, how unclear? And interrupts his combo with his wife. You can tell his wife's annoyed. She's, like, wanting some emotional support from him. This is a really awkward conversation to have in public. Again. He's like, if this just she sort of makes a provocative comment alluding to, like, sort of happened again. And he's like, well, if that's the case, I need to admit you to the hospital. Yes, that's the right step. And then she's like, no, I just need five minutes. I have to get to work. Can we go talk somewhere? And the answer is no. The answer should be no. But she manipulates him or something.

[22:24] Portia Pendleton: I thought that it was interesting that his wife was I understand why she was upset. Like, she needed support, and her husband was kind of getting called to this work duty. But I feel like I'm assuming that this doesn't happen ever. This is a strange thing, right? Like a patient coming up to him. So I felt like her reaction almost felt, like, a little strange. If I was out in public and out to dinner with my partner, and we're sitting there and a patient comes up to me and starts talking about what seems to be, like, active suicidality, that would be not normal. My partner would be like, what the **** is happening?

[23:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: They wouldn't even get up and leave.

[23:08] Portia Pendleton: Right? Sad or mad at me. They would just be like, this is strange.

[23:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Weird. Yeah.

[23:15] Portia Pendleton: So I felt like her being mad.

[23:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just, like, felt off. I think she was mad that he chose to go, but I feel like.

[23:25] Portia Pendleton: Within the context, you have to handle that. You don't need to meet with him. You know what I mean? But you have to handle the situation. Whether it's like talking to them outside and saying, this is wildly inappropriate.

[23:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know. Asking her wife, can you go get a security guard?

[23:45] Portia Pendleton: Maybe she was pretty.

[23:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's the thing. I was wondering if there was some competition and if that was intentional. I think now we know it probably was to stir up some feelings of jealousy and stuff. And then they have this mini session, like, on some couch somewhere, and there's that Victoria Secret. Yeah. So they're sitting, like, really close together. Their body language was interesting because she's, like, face toward him with her legs up on the couch. You can see her bare legs. She's just sort of talking to him and pulls out, like, a Victoria's Secret bag, saying, like, I'm really trying. And he acknowledges again, I was like, oh, ick, ick, ick, ick, ick. Yeah.

[24:23] Portia Pendleton: And again, the boundary crossing is when he agrees to meet with her also, like, in this public place, so on and so forth, and just meeting with her. But besides that, what he's saying. He's not flirting with her. He's not doing anything, like, inappropriate. Inappropriate in that moment within that context. But I think then we learn later a picture gets taken of them in this moment where she is holding up this Victoria's Secret bag, and they're comfy, quote, unquote, on this couch. But it's like, that is not what was happening.

[24:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. That's why you always have to be so careful. Totally. And this is why boundaries are so important. And this is why it's important to listen to your own gut feelings when you're evaluating new patients, because I think you could pick up some of these subtle red flags really early on and see how this could unfold. And so again, he doesn't hospitalize her against his better judgment, and then things really unravel. So he's like that's when she, Emily, asks, can you start me on Oblixa? Like, my friend so and so is on it. I hear it works. And he'd heard that from Dr. Sebert, who then we find out is, like, really pushing Oblixa. I loved what Dr. Sebert was like. Oh, you can have an Oblixa pen. Yeah. I was like, we should make analyze script pen.

[25:49] Portia Pendleton: I have a lot of residential treatment pens.

[25:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: I bet you do, right? It's just so classic. So then he puts her on Oblixa instead of Zoloft. And getting back to one of your questions, certainly there are more and more new antidepressants out there. Oblixa. I thought it was so funny the way they picked this fake name because it was like a combo of Abilify. And I thought, like, Trntilix, which are both too. Abilify has been around longer. What about Selexa and Selexa oblixa? They just sort of, like, combined it all.

[26:22] Portia Pendleton: And it sounds real. It totally sounds like a medication sounds.

[26:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like a medicine name. So I thought that was funny. And then I think it kind of starts to work, but she starts having these quote, unquote, like, sleepwalking episodes, which seemed convincing right at first, and then that's why he eventually prescribes this new medicine deletrix or something, which, again, sounds like a convincing medicine name. And that's where he's now participating as a consultant with a pharma trial being paid being paid, like, $50,000, which, again, sounds like a lot. I would have cautioned Dr. Banks to say, okay, after taxes, how much are you really getting, and is it worth it?

[27:07] Portia Pendleton: And he does disclose that he did it. Again, it seems some things pretty by the book he's with another patient who he's telling about this trial that he's in and that he is being compensated for it. And he gives her this information that she'll receive the medication at no cost. And it's like, that why people agree.

[27:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: To the trial, right? And that's what I think the pharmaceutical industry uses to its advantage. They still provide free samples, which I.

[27:35] Portia Pendleton: Think can be right on the one hand, a way to assist people who cannot pay for it initially, or there's just problems with that, too, but that still happens. People still do get free samples of lots of things. Birth control antibiotics, or, like, Vivams, like.

[27:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: A new Stimulant, which is really expensive, works great. I prescribe it a lot, but it can be expensive if you don't have good health insurance coverage. So they might give you, like, a quote unquote drug coupon where you can get, like, the first month free, and then you have to pay $600 the rest of the time. Anyway, as we're thinking about this, shout out to Mark Cuban's Pharmacy because they are providing a lot of medications at very affordable rates. Mark Cuban, if you want to sponsor the podcast, please feel free. Anyway, so they add in this new medicine, and then it turns out she murders her husband, basically, right? Like, she again has another one of these quote unquote sleepwalking episodes, ends up stabbing him multiple times, and then goes to sleep and he dies. Before we saw the end of the movie. What did you think about that whole scene?

[28:45] Portia Pendleton: I thought that it was I was shocked, but based on another episode of prior episode of her kind of sleepwalking, I was like, I don't want to say, like, it wasn't surprising, but that didn't shock me. Something was going to happen in the movie. I was like, okay, this is it. And then she's going to be like, how are they going to go after her?

[29:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[29:06] Portia Pendleton: Are they going to blame the drug? Are they going to blame her? How will they do this? That's what I was thinking. I was sad to see Channing Tatum go. Martin is his name in the movie, right?

[29:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's not a Martin. I'm always sad to see Channing Tatum go. Yeah. I like to watch him walk away. Yeah.

[29:30] Portia Pendleton: But he you know, he did not walk away. He laid on the floor and blooded out.

[29:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: So then she gets shirtless. I know.

[29:37] Portia Pendleton: Like, come on, haven't they seen Magic Mike?

[29:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: What did you think about Rooney Mara's acting in that scene? Did you buy it?

[29:46] Portia Pendleton: I did.

[29:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Too the first time. Totally bought it. And that's where I thought the movie was going. Let's see what happens here. And I thought, actually, their depiction of the whole legal process, the not guilty by reason of insanity, the NGRI, I thought that was actually pretty accurate. And again, I'm not a forensic psychiatrist. We hopefully will be having one on in. The next couple of months. But I thought overall, that was a pretty accurate depiction of how that process works. And thank God for things like not guilty by reason of insanity so that people who do commit crimes or murders or what have you when they are in the throes of a mental health episode instead of just being locked up in jail, which unfortunately has become how sad is this? The largest place where mental health treatment is delivered because we don't have enough mental health hospitals in the country. That's a whole other episode and issue. But anyway, those patients can go to, like, a forensic psychiatric unit and receive treatment. Unfortunately, I think oftentimes what then happens is once their sanity is restored sometimes, then they're tried again. I'm not a forensic psychiatrist. Do you understand that differently?

[31:01] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And I think it's interesting why it would go either way. Right. Some people are charged with not guilty by reason of insanity go on to serve their time in an inpatient unit and then are let out right into society. And other people are get off temporarily not guilty by reason of insanity, receive the care and then have to and then are tried.

[31:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly.

[31:25] Portia Pendleton: I'm curious what the differences are. I'm sure it's clear. I just don't know it.

[31:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, hopefully when we have her case.

[31:31] Portia Pendleton: It sounded like she got the she was going to get R. Right.

[31:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's the part where I'm not sure. Does that actually happen? When we have dr. Tobias wasser on in a couple of months, we will ask him.

[31:43] Portia Pendleton: And it was a really short time. Right. And I think they also had to kind of convince her because at first she was like, no, I don't want to have to go there. I'm not going to be able to leave. And they were like, no, this is the golden egg. You got the best offer. It's 1% that this actually works.

[32:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought it was really weird that the state and the defense both wanted her psychiatrist to be their expert witness and that he would agree either way. Didn't you think that was weird?

[32:14] Portia Pendleton: So I thought at first, before the twist, that the state was involved somehow with big pharma. I thought it was very strange that he was being approached. That lawyer, that guy.

[32:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I just felt like that would, like.

[32:31] Portia Pendleton: It seemed like he had some other motive.

[32:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's what I was just like.

[32:36] Portia Pendleton: And I was wondering if they were trying to get him, the psychiatrist on board so that he could speak to that it's not the drug. Right. And try to get the drug off. That's what I was thinking.

[32:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: But again, Dr. Banks, like, what a conflict of interest. I feel like that's pretty like Psychiatry 101 where you should not be you.

[32:58] Portia Pendleton: Can'T be the actions treating and her psychiatrist. You have to be one or the other.

[33:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not only her past treater. Like when this happened, but you continue to treat her while she's in the forensic unit. Again, that doesn't track for me. That's not really what happened. No, I think any psychiatrist who would unfortunately find themselves in this situation would a, call your malpractice, who will appoint your defense, and B you're not involved anymore.

[33:28] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[33:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: So the fact that he kept getting involved, I think speaks to how she kind of had her hooks in him and he felt compelled, do you think, to clear his own name?

[33:37] Portia Pendleton: I think so.

[33:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it was both.

[33:39] Portia Pendleton: I think he wanted to clear his own name because at this point, he was being harassed by people who were really unhappy with him. His wife seems unhappy with the situation. His practice seems unhappy with the situation. I think he was trying in half to clear his name and then on the other half, I think he felt sorry for her and wanted to help her.

[34:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he probably felt like some degree of responsibility, having been the prescriber. And I think prescribing something that he's in getting a kickback for. And even though he's, like, upfront about it, I think maybe he had some guilt there. But in the real world, that's not what happens. Actually, this does happen where attorneys will try to get you to be their expert witness. That actually happens all the time. But you're taught pretty early on and pretty clearly that that's a really bad idea because it's such a conflict of interest. Even if it's like your patients involved in a lawsuit and you're not really related, but your testimony, I guess, could support they're getting more damages or something. That's such a conflict of interest because if you do it or you could just affect the therapeutic alliance and you don't want to mess with that.

[34:54] Portia Pendleton: We only really do it if we are like, subpoenaed. And sometimes subpoenas, I think we really only have to follow through if it's like they're from the state. I think you can kind of fight sometimes a subpoena or push back on it for what they're asking for when it's like a private attorney.

[35:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's why you always just call your malpractice and they tell you what to do. So anyway, I don't think his malpractice.

[35:18] Portia Pendleton: Would have advised him to do this.

[35:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: You see his colleagues telling him, like, you need to stop. Get off the case. And then he asks his colleague for Adderall because he's kind of a mess. And I was like, oh, gosh, no.

[35:38] Portia Pendleton: So then this twist happens, right?

[35:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: So then, you know, we love a twist. Like, one day we'll have a boundaries jingle and then we'll also have, like, a twist. Yeah, that sounds like a tornado.

[35:48] Portia Pendleton: So I feel like for me personally, I got a little confused initially. Like, I maybe I was doing two things at the same time. I wasn't totally engrossed in the movie. I don't know. It took me a couple of minutes to be like, okay, so we're going.

[36:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: In a totally different direction here, right? Yeah. It felt like whiplash. Yeah.

[36:09] Portia Pendleton: So Rudy Mara's character is Malingering.

[36:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Turns out this whole time we see.

[36:14] Portia Pendleton: That she is working with Katherazada Jones's character. Dr. Sebert was her old psychology and love interest. Yes. Which is very inappropriate, obviously. I feel like we don't even need to talk about that. It's obviously inappropriate.

[36:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I feel like Hollywood loves to depict psychiatrists and patients boning. They just do. And it just really drives me nut. Yeah.

[36:37] Portia Pendleton: It's really like any other really horrible thing to happen in any other field. Yes, it happens, but it's so rare, so bad. This isn't the norm.

[36:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: So teacher thing. That's like, less, probably less. Right. But I did not see that coming. Like, the first time I saw this movie that turns out like they've been in cahoots the whole time and to get money.

[37:08] Portia Pendleton: So that's their plan is to get this payout from causing which is kind of wild to think about all of these chain reactions to make them rich. That's how it is. So they apparently have been kind of planning to take down Dr. Banks. Right. They send him pictures. They send his wife pictures of him and her, Emily, together, which looks really sexually compromising. They float this past patient of his into his practice. So they want him out. It sounds like there was, like a death of a past patient. She took her life and she named.

[37:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Him right, in her suicide note. And he said, this is all delusional. This relationship never happened.

[37:52] Portia Pendleton: Which I don't think it did.

[37:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he's telling the truth. And unfortunately, things like that do happen. Yeah. And so, gosh, what a lot of planning.

[38:02] Portia Pendleton: It almost seems like too much, too.

[38:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Far fetched for it all to fall into place that way.

[38:08] Portia Pendleton: But he starts to get, like he starts to figure it out. And he is appearing to be, like, crazy. Right. He's, like, staying up late.

[38:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: He has this whole wall of all these pictures they always do with, like, a red pen and X's and, like, string taped up. And then he does give the sodium what is it? Ambutol? Truth serum. Basically. He supposedly gives her truth serum to.

[38:31] Portia Pendleton: See if and at this point, we still think that he did.

[38:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[38:35] Portia Pendleton: So we find out later that it was just like saline when he is telling the police or the lawyer for the state about it. And first of all, what he did is so unethical. Like unethical. And he can get in a lot.

[38:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of trouble for it.

[38:48] Portia Pendleton: So the lawyer is like, I don't.

[38:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Want to hear this. I don't want to know.

[38:51] Portia Pendleton: You need to delete this. You need to get rid of it.

[38:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because he films her. Right.

[38:54] Portia Pendleton: And you can't be tried twice. So the lawyer is like, even if this is true, we have these laws that prohibit double jeopardy, I think it's called. Again, things are moving really fast, and we're starting to see that apparently she has concocted this plan with her old psychiatrist, and they were going to pin.

[39:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: It on whoever evaluated her. It just happened to be him, and he just happened to have this history that sort of helped with their case. And then he's like, oh, no, you're not going to pin it on me. I'm going to pin it on you. And then it turns out that then Dr. Sebert and Emily are sort of pinning it on each other, but he starts lying and deceiving and manipulating almost as bad as Emily was to begin with. Yeah. So it's just really interesting.

[39:37] Portia Pendleton: So it seems like they get her to wear a wire, emily, when she goes and meets with Dr. Sebert and gets her to kind of confess what's going on, and then Dr. Sebert feels because they're going to have sex. So she feels this pack on her back, and then the door opens and the police are there.

[39:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[39:57] Portia Pendleton: And then I'm like, oh, Emily gets away.

[40:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[40:01] Portia Pendleton: You think that she made this deal, she can't be tried again, and that's not the case.

[40:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: So then you see they're all trying to pin it on Dr. Banks. They want her to be restored to sanity so that she can be discharged from the unit and sort of go live her happy life with Dr. Seabird. But she's supposed to keep seeing him to avoid being hospitalized. And she thought it was just going to be like, okay, let's pretend I'm seeing you, but not really. Like, you know the drill. I was malingering the whole time. I don't really need medications, blah, blah, blah. But then he's like, no, I'm going to prescribe you Thorazine and Depicote, both of which are they work. They're heavy hitters, man. Like, Thorazine is really sedating Depicode again, the side effects they mentioned from these meds were spot on. You can lose your hair with Depicode. You also gain a ton of weight. You're really sluggish cognitively. You can get a lot of acne.

[40:57] Portia Pendleton: So who would be prescribed those? Like, what kind of a patient would be prescribed Thorazine and Depicote? Or either?

[41:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So Depicote is under the class of medications called mood stabilizers, which we use for things like bipolar disorder. You do not use it in women of childbearing age because it has been shown to be associated with a birth defect, specifically neural tube defects, which lead to things like spina bifida. In pregnancy, you always take a high dose Folate, and you can take extra. If you have to be on Depicode, if that's, like, the only mood stabilizer that's ever stabilized your bipolar disorder, then by all means, you need to stay on it. But it's not the first one we use. Also, so many side effects, and there's newer mood stabilizers like lamctal. Lithium has been around forever. But it's like a really good one that's effective. It has low side effects, too. And then Thorazine is an older antipsychotic, which he does acknowledge and is true. It's what we call like a typical antipsychotic like Haldol that is used for psychotic disorders. So things like schizophrenia, we use it a lot in the emergency room and inpatient setting to also help with sedations. Like, if you're so psychotic or manic that you are unable to sleep, you'll often get Thorazine to sort of help promote sleep. So you can imagine how much fatigue goes along with it. Sluggishness. It can be very drying. Like your mouth is really dry. It's not pleasant. So he's basically, like putting her into a pharmacological prison is basically what he's doing and making sure that she has to go get drug tested to show that she's actually taking it or she's going to go back in the hospital. So he gets the final one over.

[42:38] Portia Pendleton: So she is like, no, right, and runs out of there, tries to escape, and that's when she is not then right following. And I think he knows this, that she's going to have this reaction. So she kind of goes to get in the cabin, run away, and the police are waiting for her. He kind of knew all along.

[42:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he tipped him off that this is going to happen. He probably didn't say, like, I'm going to do this and she's going to do that. He probably was like, she's been acting odd. Can you be waiting? And then she goes back, I think to the forensic psych unit, which honestly, that's where she belongs. Yeah, that's where she belongs. Given everything that happened. Gosh, that movie had a lot of twists and turns, lots of ups and downs. I feel like there's probably so much more we could talk about, but this episode has already been really long. I thought it was interesting, Portia, that you didn't seem as into this movie as I was. Do you think it's because I prescribe?

[43:30] Portia Pendleton: I don't know. What's funny, too, is that one of my friends who's not in the field at all, really loved this movie and recommended it. And I don't know, I feel like.

[43:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was a little bored, actually. Yeah, you yawned a lot as we were recording this.

[43:48] Portia Pendleton: I don't know what that says.

[43:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's why I feel like I also.

[43:51] Portia Pendleton: Missed things throughout it.

[43:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you think it's because we've been talking a lot about psychopaths, like with you, and maybe you're just kind of over it for right now. Maybe Tatum died. Yeah. Maybe this Zach grief is too much for you to bear. Maybe, yeah.

[44:09] Portia Pendleton: I have no idea. I think that's interesting though. I was like bored. I feel like, oh, no, pay attention. Pay attention.

[44:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And I couldn't wait for us to record this episode and watch it again. And you're like, over here, yawning. And I'm like, and then they got the side effect right, and then they did this right. Then they did this wrong. Maybe someday we'll have a patreon and we can record a bonus episode where we explore that reaction further. Maybe.

[44:34] Portia Pendleton: This felt unbelievable to me.

[44:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it did.

[44:37] Portia Pendleton: It did. And I think that's where I was.

[44:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like, this wouldn't really happen. No, it's totally I mean, again, I think once the twist came into play, then you're like, oh, God, that's what this movie is. That's so unbelievable. You know what? I think it's important that we do analyze scripts that we don't like. Yeah. All right, well, I don't want to hold you up any longer. We'll wrap up this episode. Thanks for listening. I hope that whoever's listening isn't Yawning. We'll see. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe follow us on Instagram at Analyze scripts. DM us. Send us an email, analyze [email protected] and let us know what you want us to analyze next. Put you to sleep. Like this movie put portion to sleep.

[45:23] Portia Pendleton: Thanks so much for listening.

[45:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: See you later. Bye.

[45:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts.

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[45:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine.

[45:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're diving in to season 2 of "Succession" on HBOMax. In this episode, we explain the core features of narcissistic personality disorder and discuss how these traits show up in different ways in each of the main characters. We also use the main characters to compare and contrast overt vs covert narcissism, and explore the connection between narcissistic traits and early childhood trauma (particularly abuse and neglect). We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy.

[00:55] Portia Pendleton: So here we are today kind of talking about succession season two, and I have a million words, and none like, I yes, very, you know, we we had to kind of meet and break down.

[01:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know what's interesting? That's very black or white, all or nothing. And a lot of what we're going to be talking about today is narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder. That's how people with these traits tend to feel things and see things. Just as I'm analyzing us analyzing this show, I just want to point that out.

[01:24] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. I think the most helpful way that we kind of tried to think about.

[01:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: How to talk about all of the.

[01:31] Portia Pendleton: Things that happened in season two is, like, kind of sticking to some bigger themes.

[01:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[01:35] Portia Pendleton: So we're assuming that if you are listening to this episode, you've watched the season, so you don't need a recap. You don't need to know our thoughts on financial information. That is not our specialty.

[01:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't really have a lot of thoughts. I'm still trying to figure out what is a shareholder and why do they fly to all their private islands? But we're not going to figure that part out.

[01:56] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[01:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: So just to give a quick recap in season two, it opens with Kendall and some fancy pants hot tub, which we're assuming is like some kind of rehab, right? Yes. So his dad offered to kind of COVID up the deaths at the end of season one and return for Kendall sort of backing off the hospital takeover publicly. And he says, I'll cover your rehab. Like, go and get well. And then, oh, just kidding.

[02:22] Portia Pendleton: I need you to come 48 hours.

[02:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Later to a press conference and sort of tell everyone that you made a mistake. And actually, I am all good. Right. And then the way the rest of the season kind of unfolds is Kendall's arc with addiction, and we'll get into that a little bit more as well as the waste star, Royco tries to sort of make a deal with Pierce Global Media because they have that huge billion zillion dollar debt. And then the scandals at the cruise line come out, and we see them sort of facing a reckoning.

[02:55] Portia Pendleton: So we thought it was helpful to kind of just think about Logan, and we were kind of commenting on why didn't we talk about him as much in season one? We spent a lot more time just talking about the kids chicken, I mean, I think makes sense. But Logan we see in this season, just like he makes me feel a lot of different feelings.

[03:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have a hard time watching him. A lot of the times I think Brian *** is a really wonderful actor, but I kept being worried about Brian *** acting in this role and wondering, is he okay? Because he's having to do some really awful things, like physically hurt people, get one over on people. He screams all the time. That just must be a hard set.

[03:41] Portia Pendleton: To be I'm just thinking of his internal, I guess, brian and Logan, the character, like, how high is his cortisol level? Right? He's constantly screaming. Screaming and stressed. And it's so intense. And every decision he makes is worth probably bazillions dollars. It's very stressful.

[04:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Very stressful. And so I always wonder about this in Hollywood on sets and stuff like this. Do they have massage therapists on staff? Or, like, a quiet room you can go to to decompress or, like, therapists on set to just be like, how does that feel for you? That was a really tough scene and yeah, I'm just always curious about that.

[04:20] Portia Pendleton: I imagine they must you think? I think so.

[04:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like that's a better use of money than craft services. All the food.

[04:28] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[04:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sorry, I interrupted you.

[04:31] Portia Pendleton: No, I think I've heard somewhere about some show or movie that was pretty disturbing and maybe it was even, like, something more along the lines of, like, a sexual assault. And there were therapists on there to kind of pull people out and be like, how are you feeling right now? And ground them in the present that this isn't really happening. Right. Because I think I never thought about that until this podcast of just, like, the really intense scenes for actors and how they manage to cope with them.

[05:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: And even I'm thinking the writers, like, someone, if not all of the writers, have got to have a parent like this or something to get it so right. Get it so right. The dynamics and the ickiness and someone's got to have some sort of personal connection there because it is just so right. And the way that we see the relationship between Logan and his children and the relationship amongst the children sort of evolve and develop over time is so nuanced, but spot on.

[05:31] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[05:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I wonder if that has contributed to why this show is so wildly successful. Again, because it's not a lot to look at. It's a lot of white men in suits.

[05:42] Portia Pendleton: It's a lot of just, like, jargon that I think most people are super familiar with every single thing that they're saying.

[05:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. And so I think it is successful because of those dynamics and the emotions. The characters are portraying. And as well, I think, stirring up in the viewer. Yeah.

[06:03] Portia Pendleton: So one thing that we did not talk about, which both of us now are analyzing of ourselves, is seeing Logan in the pool in season one with pretty significant scarring on his back.

[06:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I know. I thought that was fascinating. As we were preparing for this episode, we were like, okay, let's jot down some thoughts. And that turns out to be like five pages of thoughts because it is a lot to keep track and we really want to focus on our take rather than sort of a recap of the season. And I just thought it was interesting that neither of us brought that up last time. Right. So one thing we've talked about before, specifically in our episode about incanto, again, very different vibe from this show, but this is a different type of portrayal, I think, of intergenerational trauma and the way that gets trickled down from one generation to the next. Right. And so we're seeing Logan, the patriarch of this family, who I think meets criteria for what we would consider like a malignant narcissist. What do you think, Portia?

[07:04] Portia Pendleton: I think so.

[07:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: And we'll talk a little bit about narcissism. When we think about narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder, there's the way we kind of use it in our culture, like, oh, I'm such a narcissist. I love to take selfies, or things like that. But what it really means clinically is something different. The way I kind of think about it is people with narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder have a really insecure sense of self. At the end of the day, that's sort of like the core wound, and they're constantly relying on external feedback and validation to boost themselves up and feel good. So, again, getting back to that black or white way of thinking and feeling, people with these traits have a really hard time sitting in that gray zone feeling good about themselves and remorseful for maybe things they've done simultaneously. It's really one or the other. And a lot of times these people put down everyone around them to keep themselves kind of up on a pedestal. Right.

[08:06] Portia Pendleton: And what better even way to do it than being the chairman of a board? You see it play out in his business role. You see it play out in his family, in personal relationships that seem to kind of go hand in hand with business. But wherever he goes, he is the best guy out there. Everyone wants to shake his hand. Everyone wants to know him. People are afraid of him. He just has so much power.

[08:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: So much power. And again, it might not come as a surprise that there is a high degree of people with narcissistic personality traits or disorder in positions of power. Right. That's how you get there. And there is some thought about even like a subtype of people with these personality traits as being high functioning and using that unconsciously, I'm pretty sure, to their advantage to get where they are. Right. So these are people who, like you said, like Logan, always has to be number one, always has to win, no matter the cost, has very superficial relationships personally and professionally, and really only sees people like his children, like his colleagues, as means to an end. So they're really like chess pieces that he's playing to get what he wants in the end. And we really see that unfolding in this season. And the way he manipulates and plays the kids off of each other for his own game, that's really painful for me to watch.

[09:27] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. I think it can make you have, like, a physical reaction. I mean, some of the things that he does with Kendall, I think specifically, it's like you almost think about it if you put it on paper, it's like, okay, this father is covering for his son, and it's like, okay, but.

[09:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Why not the goodness of his heart? Because he loves him, to protect him, but because that's how he's going to get what he wants. Right. And you see that unfold in such a sick, sick way.

[09:55] Portia Pendleton: And you see Kendall throughout season two just really be a shell of himself. And I think, again, like, thinking of the narcissistic traits, it's like Kendall has lost his position of power entirely, I think. I thought it was so just like a really good scene where he comes back from making that TV appearance and he hits the nosebleed. He makes the TV appearance, then he goes back to New York and he holds the door for everyone, leaving a meeting. He's just standing there holding it, and no one's really saying thank you. And he would never do that before. Right.

[10:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's a less than.

[10:32] Portia Pendleton: He's nothing. And I just thought, like, wow, and.

[10:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: How quickly it can shift. I know, it really gives you chill.

[10:38] Portia Pendleton: It's hard to watch.

[10:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's why I just think I wish I could interview the creators, the writers, the actors. Like, how did you guys get this so well? Because it flips on a dime for Logan. Right. And that is exactly how people with narcissistic personality disorder view people is. It flips on a dime depending on whether they're sort of on the good side of the split or the bad side of the split. And if they're doing what you want them to, then they're good, and you're showering them with attention, and if they're not, they're nothing. And that competitiveness between Logan and Kendall is just so intense. We really see that Logan, I think, is really threatened by Kendall, and yet Kendall just can't take it to the finish line. No, that's like his Achilles heel. He always gets, like, close and then it falls apart. Yeah.

[11:32] Portia Pendleton: And I think it's almost like his I thought Kendall was the character more intelligent right away in season one.

[11:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[11:44] Portia Pendleton: Like, I thought that he was very, very smart.

[11:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he was the one who maybe had experience compared to, like, Roman and Shiva honor. But now you're like no, I mean.

[11:53] Portia Pendleton: Really, throughout this season, I was just, like, really surprised about how some of the decisions that he makes and I think even more in other seasons, maybe season three, he just came. Across in season one and two. At times, like, really poor at taking feedback while he's not being absolutely crushed by the guilt that he has. But he doesn't really seem that intelligent, actually, to me. Seems like he's just kind of makes decisions quickly. Another kind of narcissistic trait. You don't take feedback well. You don't like people telling you what to do. I think you need to to a degree, which I think Logan, in a way, has figured out a way to have the best of the best around him. And I think maybe he takes not feedback, but ideas from others and then claims them as his own.

[12:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, exactly.

[12:41] Portia Pendleton: And I don't think Kendall is smart enough to do that.

[12:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And so I think, again, narcissism is hard to break down. I think it can be hard to explain to people. It's really hard when you're relating to someone with these traits because you really feel like you're in the Twilight Zone and your sense of reality is so warped. And I feel like that just reflects the actual person with these traits sense of reality. But I guess the core features would be this sense of grandiosity, this sense of specialness uniqueness that you're kind of above everyone else and you can only associate with other special, unique people this excessive need for admiration, again, to sort of build up your own sense of self worth. Very superficial and exploitative relationships. People are really just objects, again, that you're moving around as a chess piece.

[13:28] Portia Pendleton: And we see that multiple times. Like season one, the baseball game, all the employees there when Kendall fires that whole falter.

[13:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. And a true lack of empathy. However, some people with narcissistic traits, and I think Logan fits this, can display, like, fake empathy, where they make you sort of feel like they're understanding you, when really it's more like this data collection that they're figuring out who you are and what makes you tick in order to then use it against you later. And that's the kind of stuff that gives you the X and sends a chill down your spine. Some other pretty common features of narcissism that we see displayed in the various characters would be identity disturbance. Again, having a really unclear sense of themselves, really low self esteem and sort of their whole goal. I think we see this a lot with Kendall is sort of maintaining their status and really being concerned about the way other people's view them. We see that a lot, I think, in all of the characters. But I think especially with Logan, with kendall very hard time having authentic relationships or attachments. A real fear of dependency, which we see with all of these characters you talked about last time. Like, none of them can really have a secure relationship. I think we'll talk about that more with Roman and Jerry a little later. Chronic feelings of emptiness and boredom. I think we see that with Kendall and sort of even just relapsing and things like that. And then a lot of vulnerability with life transitions, which, again, sort of shakes up your sense of self, I think.

[15:08] Portia Pendleton: Too, with what I just find so interesting is so many of these traits, I feel like are almost in this specific situation or in this family are necessary to survive.

[15:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[15:21] Portia Pendleton: And really a big piece of it is obviously the parental and the business sense, but also just like, their wealth. Right. So it's like everyone there's nothing they can do or want that they can't have.

[15:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[15:33] Portia Pendleton: So it's like the emptiness and boredom. It's like, if you can have anything you want at any time, that's kind of boring.

[15:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: How do you get a dopamine rush? Right. It has to be a bigger and.

[15:42] Portia Pendleton: Bigger pushing the line. Pushing the line.

[15:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or fire a whole sector of a company and like, get off. Right, right.

[15:49] Portia Pendleton: That the issues with relationships. It's like people are using you. People are trying to get you to promote them or be your friend or invite them to something. So it's funny how this plays out interpersonally as well as internally for all of these family members. Because I wonder, just like, thinking in real life, how many people who are mega, mega, mega rich are just like in a narcissistic world, regardless if they have the traits or not. It's like you must develop them to survive, regardless of trauma, family, other narcissists in your life, it seems like. How do you not have it?

[16:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I think none of these characters can trust anyone on these characters. Like, not even the person you think you can or who you think is safe. They're all, like, manipulating and playing everyone against each other for their own gain. So you're right. It's like when you're Beyonce or some other billionaire or whoever. How do you trust anyone who's trying to come into your inner circle? How? I don't know.

[16:52] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, and I think if we write down the criteria, it's like, okay, well, then you're paranoid. It's like you're not paranoid. You're actually like, these things are real and happening. But I think what I think is sad is that these characters really don't seem to have anyone.

[17:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Are you talking about the kids? Yeah, we keep calling them kids.

[17:10] Portia Pendleton: They're adults. They're probably older than us. So I don't know.

[17:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it's sad. It's so true. And we sort of sense that in season one, right, by not meeting mom until the very end. And then we really see that unfold. Like, these kids have really relied on their dad, who is so flawed. Right. So it sounds like Logan grew up in Scotland, at least for a period of time. We see him go back home in season two, and you see he has such a detached, cold relationship to his childhood home. Remember? I think they pull up and he's like, okay, done. I have no interest in going back. And then somewhere in there, they allude to the fact that I think his uncle actually raised him. And Ewan and their sister, who we still don't know what happened to her, but something tragic, it seems like. And it's somewhere along the way, ewan says to him, like, you have to stop blaming yourself for her death. So we don't really know what happened there, but I think an uncle raised them in the States. And then we see all those scars on his back, and Logan says to the kids, at some point, my uncle would beat me if I ever spoke to him the way you're speaking to me. And we see, like, there's physical evidence of that that's pretty severe. So that sort of gives you an idea of the world he was growing up in.

[18:34] Portia Pendleton: Because he did not grow up in this silver spoon.

[18:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: No. Somehow not at all. Right. He grew up, I think, in poverty, like in Scotland. And so somehow he has risen to this megawealth, mega position of power. And I think oftentimes when treating patients with narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder, there is this early trauma history or these feelings of low self worth of being unworthy. And I think, like a lot of kids who grew up with a parent who's absent, whether it's physically absent, emotionally absent, what have you, will develop this inner sort of sense of themselves as being unlovable or not good enough or things like that. And that is sort of like the core wound that we see with narcissism. And so we sort of see that with Logan. And then now we see how he's relating to his own children, who, like, on paper, he's giving them everything.

[19:27] Portia Pendleton: Right. And that's also maybe why he almost like he doesn't understand that he's doing anything wrong.

[19:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[19:33] Portia Pendleton: He's like you have everything. I so much better.

[19:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[19:36] Portia Pendleton: How you know, I was being physically abused all the time? I only hit, you know, I only swapped you, or I only did this. It just seems like he has no awareness that he's doing a lot of.

[19:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he's incapable of having that type of insight and being able to be like, yes, I'm doing all this good for them, and I am hurting them. I don't think he can see that in any way. I think, again, he would feel like his sense of self was totally annihilated, which is I think those are the moments that provoke his narcissistic rage or what we call in the field, like, narcissistic injury, when someone with these traits is, like, faced with criticism or their own deficiency, they explode. And we see that, like, when he slaps Roman, when he hits that little boy from season one. We see it all the time with him. And then later on, we see a lot of examples of gaslighting. Like, him and Roman are in the car and he's saying, like, did I even make contact with your face? And roman's like, I don't think so. And, like, I don't know. What did you think about that scene?

[20:40] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, total gaslighting. And you can just see how almost like, what a norm it is, right? I don't think it happens as common now, where it's like, there's such a big reaction. But all the kids reacted to it. They were all like, oh, my gosh, Roman, are you okay?

[20:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then Kendall jumped right in. They've done this before. Yes, exactly. So automatic.

[21:05] Portia Pendleton: And then I think Roman it seems really wounded, right? Like, there's a wound internally in the car. He kind of plays it off like it's not a big deal. And then they just kind of, like, go on their merry way. And those are the moments that I'm, like, so curious and would love to ask Roman because he appears flat, right? Just look at him. But what are you feeling right now? What are you thinking? What's going on?

[21:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't even think he's connected to it. Right? I bet he's, like, so numb inside. I bet he's so numb because I think that's the role he's always played is the one who's getting hurt. Right? Like, we talked in season one about the whole dog cage thing, and then this happens. But then you see Kendall jump in and Kendall and Roman weren't, like, on good terms then, right? But they jump in. And again, I'm like, God, you got his so, right? Writers or actors or whoever's doing it. But then that's what fascinates me with the Roman and Jerry development. Right. We talked a little bit in our last episode about how it seems like Roman is impotent sexually. He can get it up, so to speak. He can't have sex with these women, which is interesting because he totally could given his position in society. He's classically good looking. He's wealthy. Right. You'd think that he'd have no problem getting a bunch of and I wonder.

[22:23] Portia Pendleton: When that first popped up. Has it always been that way, even as a teenager? Hormone raging boy? Or is this something that happened kind of at an older age? I don't know. I'm just, like, curious. Sexual dysfunction.

[22:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then so we see. I love how this show can introduce some humor along the way. So I loved when was it Jerry who told Roman, like, you know what would really impress your dad, Roman, is if you did the management training. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. And then they send Roman to Texas or, like, some random place to do the management training program for the parks or something, right? And he's, like, watching the videos, and then he's in one of the videos for a second. Yeah, just for a second.

[23:07] Portia Pendleton: He's so mad. So mad.

[23:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: They cut out his park. But these are the kinds of, like this is, like, the kind of input he's probably received his whole life, just, like, how worthless he is. They can't even include whatever they told him to say, like, what he read from the cue card.

[23:27] Portia Pendleton: And then, again, a little sprinkle of comedy is with that guy, right, who they can get paired up with. And then, of course, they find out who the class finds out who Roman is because of that active shooter at ATN. And then they win, and Roman kind of, like, nods to it. He's like, well, did you think we won before? And the guy's like, yes, I think so. Naive and hopeful and such a good right. Juxtaposition of like, these are regular people, right? I think this was season one where Shiv gives the hand sanitizer to Gil. What are you doing? And she's like, oh. And she makes some kind of comment, really gross comment, and then she's kind of super taken aback, and then she quits, right? Because of the feedback. They're kind of demonstrating a little bit of disgust at her comment, and then she can't take it. She also wants to get in back with a star, right?

[24:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: And so she quits.

[24:29] Portia Pendleton: And then they kind of have this funny which also, Gail politics got to be a little narcissistic. They're, like, going back and forth at each other about like, well, I quit. Well, no, I fired you. It's just funny. And again, fits with what you were talking about with Narcissism.

[24:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. So I just love how they just display these traits as being so pervasive. And that is how it is, right. With personality disorders, you're not having interpersonal conflict with one or two people. It's like everyone.

[24:58] Portia Pendleton: And that's why it's personality and not just like I am sure I have been, which makes me sad. I'm sure I've been cruel. I'm sure I've been angry. I'm sure I've been all these things. But that's not a pervasive personality trait.

[25:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: And the fact that it makes you sad is a really good sign for you that you're right. Because they can feel them both at the same time.

[25:20] Portia Pendleton: Exactly. So everything kind of circles around Logan, right. So we kind of broke down even the kids in the kind of classic right. Narcissistic family dynamic.

[25:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. So usually and again, if you haven't listened to our episodes about the show, you please do, especially season two of you. I think we really get into the Narcissistic family structure of the Quinn family. I just love that show so much. But again, so we think of children of Narcissists. Again, these aren't like their own they're not viewed by Logan as their own humans. Right. With their own thoughts, their own beliefs, their own desires, their own wants, they're really viewed as extensions of himself. And in his eyes, the whole point of them being alive and around is to do his work for him, to get him what he wants. Right. And we see to make him feel good, to do something, to take over his business someday. But then we see how hard it is for him to actually appoint a successor or step back and give them the reins again. Because if he does that, who is he?

[26:20] Portia Pendleton: I was going to ask you, do you think thinking about season two, do you think he's going to kind of go out dead before he appoints a successor or do you think he will appoint a successor in or out of the family? Do you think he's capable of giving that up without a serious right. Medical, mental health?

[26:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think crisis.

[26:39] Portia Pendleton: I think he's going to go out in a body bag. I don't think he can give that away, especially because I think it's like his child really, it's like another child is a company.

[26:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, I don't think he can. I think we've seen that, like when he was planning the step away and appoint Kendall. He keeps coming, but he can't yeah, he can't do it. I feel like it was interesting. I agree with you. I don't think he actually is capable of that because then I think he's nothing. If he's not the top dog, no one's going to check on him. They're all coming to him because they will need something, want something from him. So he's nothing. And then his kids have the power above him. I also think this show is like a remarkable commentary on aging overall. And I think we could talk about that more another time. But what did you think of him appointing Reya and do you think there were ulterior motives there?

[27:31] Portia Pendleton: I think there was. I think that he appointed Reya. I mean, and again, like, after watching the end of season two, maybe in the moment didn't think this, but I think that he kind of appointed her to take the fall.

[27:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think so too.

[27:42] Portia Pendleton: Like solely. I think he kind of battered her up or buttered her up or battered.

[27:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Both are goodies.

[27:56] Portia Pendleton: That's funny. So either one he did and I think at the same time it's so interesting because he's not going to do that publicly to his kids because then that would reflect poorly on him.

[28:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[28:11] Portia Pendleton: So if he elected Siobhan at that time and then someone's got to go because of all the cruise line stuff, I don't think that that would look good on him. So I think he intentionally did someone outside the family, the Reya who's like this kind of consultant came in. I think he made her trust him. It seems like they had a sexual relationship because Marcia got really upset and made some. Pretty good comments. I thought with just, like, you, this was like, irreparable. Like, you hurt me, you broke something.

[28:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then it's like, I doubt that was the first time. No, but maybe they have an agreement or something. It seems like they do. Where she goes up to Ray is like, have you been tested? Yeah, this seemed a little maybe because I think Marsha thought she was going to take over. Remember at the very beginning, like, adjusting the trust so she got more votes. I think she was thinking she'd take over, and then now all of a sudden, it's this race.

[29:03] Portia Pendleton: It's almost like their agreement is something like, you don't miss business with pleasure. So Logan can have sexual relationships, but it's not with the CEO or it's.

[29:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Got to be with your secretary. I think it's someone lower than you or a prostitute. You know what I mean?

[29:19] Portia Pendleton: Or it's just like something like that versus this other woman who exactly. Raya is like, really rivaling her versus just like yeah, whatever.

[29:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. No, I think so too. I also think it was interesting that it was a woman who he eventually appointed to then take the fall for the cruise line stuff, which was a lot of sexual assault stuff. Right. I don't think that was a coincidental. No, I agree.

[29:44] Portia Pendleton: And then he brought more. He's Shivin at the time, he was kind of making promises to her. And again, I think it's like the Logan's smart. I mean, he made this business, so.

[29:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: He'S obviously intellectual and obviously he knew this was going on. Yeah. Right. He didn't not know. So he probably I feel like he's the kind of person who thinks and can see ten steps ahead, and that's probably why he got so successful. But then I think he was orchestrating the chess pieces just so and now that we're talking about it, I thought in the moment he was so reluctant to sort of announce that Shiv was going to be next in line because he didn't want to give up the power. But I wonder if he was trying to protect her, like knowing what was.

[30:26] Portia Pendleton: Coming, I think trying to protect her. Yes. And like the image.

[30:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Not actually her for her. He's awful to her. Yeah. But she also just keeps coming. But then you can come and be.

[30:39] Portia Pendleton: Like, oh, hey, pinky, and that's great.

[30:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

[30:41] Portia Pendleton: In that moment, I feel like it's like right. The black and white, my head whips. Because it's like this cute again, it's all intentional, but it's this cute nickname. It's definitely like an endearing nickname back to childhood. And he doesn't have any nicknames for the other kids.

[30:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, I guess he calls Roman Romulus.

[30:58] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, but I feel like that's like his full name.

[31:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or maybe that's also like a jab. Maybe that sounds like a fancy name, but Roman's, like, not really taken seriously. I don't know.

[31:10] Portia Pendleton: And then thinking about the forgotten child, Connor. So I think it's so ironic how they send him to go to the funeral for most lester yes.

[31:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: And the only way to get Daddy's attention is to run for president. Right. And he's really serious about this.

[31:32] Portia Pendleton: And so total grandiose, right?

[31:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Totally. Delusion. Had a job ever. Yes. I mean, the grandiosity in narcissism is delusional. It reaches the level of delusion.

[31:46] Portia Pendleton: And then having a relationship that you're paying for again, that seems almost, like safe.

[31:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[31:51] Portia Pendleton: Like, I can't get hurt. Like I'm paying this person. I'm also kind of keeping you a little bit at Arm's way.

[32:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. All of the kids in different ways.

[32:03] Portia Pendleton: Because I think you don't think initially all the kids lined up next to each other. I'm not like Connor Narcissism, but he is so much so in a very different flavor.

[32:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. He's more of, like, what I would think of as like a covert, where it's not as obvious from the outset. Whereas overt narcissists are the loudest one in the room, throwing the parties, bragging about themselves. Those are the people that you can sort of get a read on pretty quickly. Whereas covert narcissists have that same sense of grandiosity, but it's hidden under a layer of self deprecation, sort of like failure to launch. Like not taking the opportunity because you think you'll fail or things like that, but really it's because you think you're so special. And I could see that with Connor. And then now he's like, okay, I'm going to run for president. He doesn't see why this is like an insane idea. And he even releases that video, remember?

[33:00] Portia Pendleton: Just can't and no one so it's like everyone around him well, they try.

[33:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like the siblings try to tell siblings do.

[33:07] Portia Pendleton: But these hires hired willa. He's paying her, so it's doing her play.

[33:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Remember, Greg gets bit by all the sand. I loved it. But then he's, like, funneling so much money into her play, and then it doesn't get good reviews. Like, shocker. Then asking Daddy for more money, and it's just oh, it's sad. It's pathetic.

[33:32] Portia Pendleton: I really would love to know if Connor had any, like, what his relationship? If there is one with his mom, because I know that he doesn't have the same mom as Shiv, Roman and Kendall, but because he has that different flavor, it's like, why? Right. Did you live with your mom for a period of time?

[33:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you have some sort of good connection? Right. I think it's clear that what's the other kid's mom's name? Caroline. Something like that.

[34:01] Portia Pendleton: I think so.

[34:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Bad mom. Yeah. I hate to say it, but we also see that really sadly with Kendall in this season when he's like, again, Logan brings him to go talk to the family, like, oh, how disgusting and manipulative.

[34:15] Portia Pendleton: And not in like, we're taking account.

[34:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of like, this is good for you.

[34:21] Portia Pendleton: Don't forget.

[34:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. Don't forget. Don't forget. Kendall. What I did for you. It's so sick. It's so sad. It really makes me sick. But then Kendall wants to talk to his mom about it, wants to tell someone and get some concern. And then her reaction is like, oh, it's getting late, can we talk about it tomorrow, Porsche?

[34:44] Portia Pendleton: And then total dismissal and she's gone to town. We ask ourselves and or clients and or friends who talk to us, it's like, why do you keep going back?

[34:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? It's like the puppy who gets abused.

[34:55] Portia Pendleton: Like, why do you keep running back over there to get kicked again?

[34:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: The empty well, like you're just hoping.

[34:59] Portia Pendleton: There'S a little drop of and there isn't. And that's so painful to be rejected over and over and over again.

[35:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: But also it's so normal for a child to have a connection to their parents, however awful the parents are. Those are your parents. And so that eternal hope. This is what I try to tell my patients, is like, there's not anything wrong with you for having that. Of course you do.

[35:25] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[35:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's biological, evolutionary. You're supposed to be able to count on that. It is like, I think one of the most painful things when you're repeatedly reminded how much you can right. And we really saw that depicted and it's intense, so intense. But you're right. With Connor, I wonder if he had some sort of better relationship with his mom. I get the sense that maybe Logan was like really young when he had Connor or something and that maybe I wonder if I don't know if we'll ever learn, but this is my fantasy, is that Logan maybe I was going to say loved, but I don't think he's capable of true love. But maybe he really cared about Connor's mom but then was getting big and fancy and needed to be with a big and fancy person, like this fancy British woman.

[36:09] Portia Pendleton: So I think that could be true.

[36:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: But he left them, went with her. Maybe he got her money that helped infuse his business and grow. And I have a feeling that he wasn't around a lot for Connor. Like maybe saw him at Christmas or sent him presents or sent him money but wasn't really around. So I feel like the money is the only connection they have. Yeah, that's my fantasy.

[36:32] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. I would love to know and I feel like not necessary, but I think.

[36:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: It would just be like an interesting story.

[36:38] Portia Pendleton: And then we see Logan kind of going back and forth with the other three here and there. This one's, the Golden Child at the moment. And that seems like they're always chasing that, right?

[36:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: So again, getting back to the Narcissistic family structure, you often think about golden Child scapegoat and then like the forgotten one and sometimes like a joker. So golden child is usually the one who reminds the Narcissist most of themselves. So it's like we think that's Kendall right?

[37:07] Portia Pendleton: I feel like it is even in season two, because I know there's two more seasons. I just feel like Kendall, he's been.

[37:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, primed to take over. But then Logan gets threatened by that. And so then you're right. I think he is the golden child until he does something his dad doesn't agree with, which then he's nothing to do. Right. And then the scapegoat, I feel like a lot of the times is Roman or takes a fall. He's a goofball. He's just blamed for everything. He's kind of the joker to lighten the tension. And then Shiv, I think, is, like, forgotten. And a girl I really think that matters.

[37:49] Portia Pendleton: Being a girl is, like, the reason why we almost can't figure it out. Because I feel like Logan can't figure it out.

[37:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know how to relate to her unless she's like, a sexual object or I think that's how he's probably related to other women. So he doesn't know what to do with his daughter. I totally agree. Sometimes people with narcissistic personality disorder also display other personality disorder traits, like antisocial personality disorder, sadistic traits, paranoia, like, things like this. And we totally see that in Logan. Again, when we think of antisocial personality disorder, by that we don't mean, like, you don't like to socialize. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about this ability to know the difference between right and wrong and doing wrong anyway. Because you get off on it. You get a thrill out of it. And so I think we sort of see all of that coalesce when they're at that awful hunting retreat again. Every episode, they're flying off to some new country, they're doing some new something. And all the crews going like, Jerry. I'm always like, Jerry, do you have a life or no, I think, yeah, right. Her life. That is her lifestar.

[39:03] Portia Pendleton: So it's like her, I think, just interesting thing of the women. So it's like, Jerry and then the woman who runs ATN, like, under Tom remember when Tom gets it? And she's like, yeah, you guys all come and go, but she seems like she's been there forever. Seems a little, like, rough and take it.

[39:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it's like the women who are running the show but get none of the credit. Right?

[39:21] Portia Pendleton: Yes. I always just think about I wonder what they're thinking of this. So at the retreat, first of all, like, hunting. And again, this is really sexist, but I don't think of hunting with females. And I know they do, and that's great and wonderful, but just as a generalization, it's like going on a hunting retreat.

[39:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[39:41] Portia Pendleton: You might go to a spa right.

[39:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or something, or just have other activities to do.

[39:45] Portia Pendleton: It's like such a masculine we're going to kill animals.

[39:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but then didn't they go to, quote, unquote, hunt?

[39:52] Portia Pendleton: Then they all stand around and wait.

[39:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Someone to drop the creatures from the sky.

[40:00] Portia Pendleton: We're surrounded by the people with the guns and it's just like this is so spot on. It makes me think of all the this is my personal opinion, people who go shoot beautiful animals in Africa and it's like you just paid a million dollars to have someone drive you to where they're keeping it corralled so you can shoot it and then bring it home.

[40:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's just disgusting and disgusting. But then it's just like so symbolic of like that is these kids lives. Like they have just been like, let go from the sky to be hunted, their dad, but then somewhere like in that retreat or whatever. What is that supposed to be? Team building? Yeah.

[40:47] Portia Pendleton: What we see goes down. I was like, this is honestly, in a way, it is team building because there's a trauma.

[40:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. Like trauma bond. Yes. You're so right. It's like, usually think of team building exercises as like, everyone gets a free donut and we're going to do trust falls. Right. And this is like Logan and you get your pen. This is logan's.

[41:08] Portia Pendleton: And it seems like again, I'm taking this as a norm. I think Logan's private. That guy, the security guy, who we see throughout all the seasons while they start and then we'll obviously get into this specific boar on the floor thing, but you see him kind of ushering the staff out.

[41:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: He shuts the door, he knows what to do. Exactly. And that to me, implies that Logan also knows that this is wrong. It's not like Logan's, like, reacting and then remorseful later. He has zero capability to feel remorse, this guy Logan. But yeah, the bore on the floor, my God, I guess Logan got tipped off that someone's maybe talking to some unauthorized biographer or something, and then he wants to know who it is. And so who were the people that he was, like, making get on the floor?

[41:54] Portia Pendleton: So Carl, Tom and Greg.

[41:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. He was thinking like, it's got to be one of them. And so he has them all get on the floor and people are like, oinking at or he's asking them to oink or make pig noises and they're like throwing food at them, basically trying to humiliate them until the person fesses out.

[42:10] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[42:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was as sick as that baseball scene.

[42:15] Portia Pendleton: And then Roman, you see kind of filming and again, I feel like Roman is so injured to me that I'm not going to say he can do no wrong in my eyes, but I feel like I have such empathy for Roman that I personally can explain away. Even though he doesn't know horrible things.

[42:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. I think he has such a warp sense of world that he really doesn't know right or wrong. Right. And I think he's just so desperate for his dad's love that he'll do whatever his dad wants. His dad knows that and takes advantage of it. Right.

[42:48] Portia Pendleton: So Tom, Carl and Greg are kind of on the floor. Oinking. They're all trying to get the one sausage right. It's like whoever eats the sausage first or whatever wins. And what I just think was sad as they kind of switch back and forth between the scenes, is that Shiv is having sex with this guy. And again, they had a conversation, seemed one sided about having an open marriage, wedding.

[43:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, time of life, transition. Not surprising that Shiv sense of self, someone with narcissistic traits herself, would be shaken up.

[43:22] Portia Pendleton: Right, exactly. So she's getting pleasured while Tom is being humiliated. So they initially think because Kendall wrestles the phone away from Roman, they think that Roman was the one who was talking to that other family. And that's kind of why the deal fell through. They ended up learning that it was mo.

[43:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's why he was upset was about the deal, was about the biography. That was something different. You're right. Yeah. And, man, season two really gets you feeling for Tom.

[43:51] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[43:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And I didn't like Tom at first, and then in this season, I really started to feel for him. There's some really intense scenes between him and Shiv, and near the end, he's like, Shiv, I'm really unhappy on our relationship. And you start to think like, oh, Tom really loves her, and she's not treating him well.

[44:10] Portia Pendleton: I think that Tom is a narcissist. However, he is not. And I think really, it's like, solely he is not the same kind of narcissist. And it's even like, he might have the same traits, but I think how I see him differently is I don't think he grew up like them. So it's like, I think he still is. I think he's, like, grandiose, and I think he injures other people. I think Greg does things to get one over another.

[44:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. He does things to Greg that are done to him, and it's just like.

[44:39] Portia Pendleton: For whatever reason, it doesn't feel not as bad, but not as big to me. And that's why I think even season one, I thought he was funny. I kind of felt bad for him, even though he was being really horrible.

[44:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, making people flip. Yeah, no, I see that, but right. Because I think he is from the Midwest. Right. But I think his mom's an attorney. So you think he grew up, like, fine.

[45:02] Portia Pendleton: I think he's not this went to a private school. I think he was in a fraternity.

[45:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I wonder if he I thought maybe this is my fantasy. Like, him and Shiv met in law school. I don't know if Shiv went to law school, but I could see her going to law school right. Or, like, being an English major, like something. And that's where they met, because I always am like, how did he get hooked up with Shiv? But I just have this sneaky feeling he's still a really bad guy, but he's fooling us all. I just have this feeling.

[45:30] Portia Pendleton: I think he's getting worse behind the scenes.

[45:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: As he's getting closer and closer more.

[45:37] Portia Pendleton: It'S like he's being wounded. So then he's now becoming in the family. So just like they were being wounded and that's why I think they're all horrible. He's now in that position, too, and I think that's why he gets worse and worse.

[45:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: So in an interesting way, it almost as you're saying that portia. It's making me think that Tom's character development parallels Logan's earlier character development or personality development that we didn't see, but how the person being abused becomes an abuser.

[46:09] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[46:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: I wonder if that's going to play out with Tom in future seasons, because definitely in this season, I really was really feeling for him. They're all so terrible to him. They're so insulting to him. They laugh at him. They really just put him down to, again, maintain their sense of superiority. And then we see him do that to Greg, who actually is closer to the family than he is. And I think that's part of why Greg's the target rather than, like, some random assistant who's unrelated to the family. I don't think that would feel as good to Tom to insult as someone who is connected. So I don't know. I'm really interested to see where things go with him.

[46:49] Portia Pendleton: It's like he's learning how to fit in with the family. So he's getting worse, but if it's not there to begin with, that's not going to happen. I think he already is a narcissist.

[47:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it's like he's getting a worse. That's a good point. Yeah. And I think he is so wounded and embarrassed, like, the way he behaved at that questioning thing where he really, like, such a buffoon. Yeah. So we can't wrap this episode up without exploring the Roman and Jerry twist. Like, I didn't see it coming until it was happening, and then I was like, oh, my God, this makes sense.

[47:28] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. I think it's like, in some ways so perfect.

[47:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[47:33] Portia Pendleton: It's like so on paper, like, messed up and inappropriate for many reasons, even just because of the job itself. But I think it's like for him and what we kind of think of Romans borderline, this is it. He's with Jerry.

[47:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. What we're referring to, if you don't remember, you haven't seen up until this point, roman again, is kind of impotent. Like, doesn't have sex with girls, can't perform that's become an issue in his relationships? It seems like all the siblings know and really make fun of him for it. And then all of a sudden you see him get aroused and ********** on the phone when Jerry is berating him for something. I don't even remember what, but, like, berating him. And I was like, is Jerry understanding what he's doing? I think she was. I don't think it was like, yeah.

[48:29] Portia Pendleton: Why do you think she did it? Why do you think she played along?

[48:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I think there's a clearly, again, Jerry as like an attachment figure for Roman and a sexual figure. She's older than him. She's maternal. They always joke about how he wants to pork his mom is, like the phrase they use. So there's something with that that I think is arousing to him. But also they can't get too close because she is kind of in the business kind of boss. But I think he's so used to being hurt by everyone, like the dad. I think that for him is all mixed up with pleasure. Just like with Logan, being sadistic and hurting others gets him off. I think for Roman, getting hurt gets him off. And I think his other romantic partners remember, even when he tried to have sex with that girlfriend, he wanted her to choke him or really, he wanted her to play dead like a corpse, remember? There's something really twisted there. And I feel like with Jerry, she's maternal.

[49:36] Portia Pendleton: I mean, like we said before, either.

[49:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: She feels like Tom to me, where, like, on the surface, you want to think they're kind of good, but then you're not if you've stayed involved this long. So I feel like she's manipulating him.

[49:51] Portia Pendleton: You know what I mean? I think in his sense of what a mom is, which is a horrible mom, I think she's, like, so much nicer, but it's like, well, she, in a way, has to be because she.

[50:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Works for your father, right? So that kind of is like, your business, mommy. But so why does she go along with it? And she does go along with it. She keeps saying, like, stop. But she keeps going. Right? So she is participating consensually. Even if she's saying, Stop sending me **** pics or whatever, she's still doing it, I think, for her own power. I think she wants to be the top. And I feel like that's a way to manipulate him, to know what is Logan doing?

[50:38] Portia Pendleton: Because you have to think, like, she survived at Logan's right hand for what appears to be years. She's not new to this. She's not naive.

[50:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. She wasn't so appalled by what happened at cruises. She's in it. And I think Logan and Roman roman will then go to Jerry to ask for advice. So I think it's also, like, a backdoor look into what's on Logan's mind if he's not telling her. So I think it's just like all manipulative and sick, but perfect. And there was a part of me that was like, could they be a couple?

[51:20] Portia Pendleton: And we'll see. It starts in season two, and we'll have to see what happens. Does it pick up? Does it get shut down? Like, what happens in season three?

[51:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's like I love to analyze my own reaction to this show because one big question I have is, like, why do I feel so bad for these kids? Why do I keep calling them kids when they're grown adults and they're all, like, pretty terrible, but I really feel empathy for them.

[51:45] Portia Pendleton: Why do I feel like I want Roman and Jerry to work?

[51:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Why am I hopeful?

[51:52] Portia Pendleton: And I think, though, it's because typically, even as therapists and providers, we don't see the full family picture. We hear it from the patient's perspective, whether it's 100% accurate or not. And I think that we're seeing the entire family dynamic played out and we're seeing really the why. And I think that makes you be more empathetic.

[52:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think the kids we're seeing.

[52:15] Portia Pendleton: Them be abused and kids are abused. I don't know. I think it's maybe that's how you.

[52:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Feel so empathetic to Roman. I find myself, my empathy growing for Roman as it's Dwindling for Kendall, they're like inverting as the Seasons Go On. Maybe because we see him be slapped and abused and like, Kieran Culkin does such a good job portraying a victim of abuse. Totally agree with his eyes down. Just all of it. He seems like body language, but all of his body language around his dad, he does such a good job. He does such a good job. But yeah, I'm like rooting for Roman and Jerry, even though it's so messed up and I don't know why.

[52:58] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And I think that's a great question, though, as two seasoned mental health professionals. It's like, why are we kind of it's the good writing.

[53:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: And why did we totally forget the scars on Roman's back last time? Right. It's because I think I don't want to feel empathy for Logan because he's so terrible. Oh, my gosh. Anything else for season two for us to wrap up? I don't think so.

[53:24] Portia Pendleton: I mean, I think we're going to kind of see where a couple of things go. So I'm waiting to kind of see what happens with Connor and Willa. He's forgotten, which is why I always forget about him. That's perfectly played out. But I think he's always an interesting lightener to the mood when he's on screen.

[53:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's just breezing in and out and.

[53:48] Portia Pendleton: Love that he is from the iconic Fair movie.

[53:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I love Willa's hair. She's so pretty, and her hair is just, like, so nice.

[53:57] Portia Pendleton: I think they're comedic relief. I think Greg is comedic relief. I'm curious to Greg again what being in this family, this does horrible family environment does to him. I think he grew up so poor, which is so ironic with his grandfather Yuan having still millions of dollars poor.

[54:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he was like he's failure to lunch. I think his mom got sick of it. I don't think you okay, well, from related to standards, not like related to working.

[54:26] Portia Pendleton: And maybe they're divorced. I have no idea. Because we have a mom, but they're working.

[54:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: They have jobs and need their health insurance and stuff. Exactly. They're not in private helicopters. Right? Yeah.

[54:36] Portia Pendleton: So it's like he's kind of being pushed into this family and he seems very naive. I don't know if you think he is.

[54:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think, again, like Tom and Jerry, he can put on a show of being naive, but he has these moments where I think there's more going on, and I'm happy for him for it, but otherwise he'd be eaten up and spit out. Exactly.

[54:58] Portia Pendleton: So do you think that he's just like a survivalist or do you think that he is a narcissist? You know what I mean?

[55:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he's like a covert narcissist. Like failure to launch. Remember he was supposed to be the mascot thing. He's, like, throwing up because he got too high. And then eventually his mom's like, I'm done helping you. You need to go. You have to figure it out. Yeah. I don't want him to be because I like him so much, but I think he is like, he holds onto those documents. I loved that scene in season two between him and Tom where Tom they're, like, talking and joking, but really Tom's like, so where are the documents? Greg's like, I'm never going to tell you. I think he's smart enough for stuff like that because we know he could just get out and eventually get this ginormous inheritance from Ewan. There's something about it that's keeping him involved, right? Like, he could go get a normal job and be fine and wait for his inheritance, but something about it's keeping him in.

[56:01] Portia Pendleton: Well, and I guess asking yourself, as the viewer, what would you do? You know what I mean? Like, if you were kind of sucked into this system but he's not level.

[56:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, you have autonomy. You can walk away and would you.

[56:20] Portia Pendleton: DM us on the private jets? I think that's all very appealing for people for different reasons, and everyone has lines where I think they would get out or wouldn't. And I'm just curious to see does he have a line? Because I think that speaks more to what's innately in there versus I think anyone could get sucked up into something. But then what disgusts you? Then what? Where do you say?

[56:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: No.

[56:44] Portia Pendleton: No.

[56:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Exactly. So feel free to, like, DM us and let us know. What's your line? Yeah, it's hard to know.

[56:54] Portia Pendleton: Bore on the floor, the hitting the.

[56:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Softball game and all the sexual assault and murder that occurred on the cruises and then covering it up.

[57:04] Portia Pendleton: It's pretty bad, right? Yeah.

[57:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: All right, well, tune in next week to hear us recap an oldie but a goodie the movie side effects, followed by season three of succession the following week. Find us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts and on TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast. And I guess we'll see you next time.

[57:25] Portia Pendleton: Okay, thanks.

[57:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and. Subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing the Netflix series "Wellmania." We love how this comedy portrays various forms of toxic wellness culture. In this episode, we explore everything from gurus to sexual liberation. We also plug Dr. Pooja Lakshmin's new book "Real Self Care" as a resource to explore authentic self care practices, rather than expensive, ineffective "quick fixes." We hope you enjoy!

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we analyze the first season of the hit HBO Max series "Succession." We spend most of this episode getting familiar with each of the main characters and the toxic Roy family dynamics. We explore themes of covert vs overt narcissism, attachment, substance use disorders, personality disorders, and toxic entitlement. We also explore the expert portrayal of ineffective family therapy, as well which behaviors of the adult children stem from child abuse and emotional neglect. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:17] Portia Pendleton: Hi, welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. Today we are so excited to finally be talking about succession.

[00:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Finally. Oh, finally.

[00:25] Portia Pendleton: Succession. Season one, which is on HBO, max, huge show for them, like big time. Their last season is currently being released right now. Every Sunday, I think, right?

[00:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think every Sunday. And we are such journalists that we are watching all four seasons this month. And we will be releasing one episode a week per season, every other week with some movies and other things thrown in. But boy, oh boy, I don't know how I've been sleeping on this show.

[00:56] Portia Pendleton: It's so I know I have had so many people personally and then even on our Instagram page be like, you need to do succession. You need to do succession. And I really will say at first I didn't think I was going to like, me too.

[01:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: The first two to three episodes, I was like, oh, snooze yeah.

[01:11] Portia Pendleton: Feels a little dry. Feels like a business, small political, a.

[01:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Lot of navy and black and a lot of boring. And it also just left me feeling icky right away. Like, this is capitalism and I don't really need to see this anymore. And I already suffer the consequences of capitalism.

[01:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So I can say we're not going to talk about season two, but now I'm like, I just finished season two and I'm obsessed with this. I really am trying to slowly watch it because it's so good and pick up on all the characters and all the storylines and all of the kind of like real life things. I was thinking kind of automatically in the first couple episodes when I wasn't that into, it was like, okay, in real life, who owns what, right? Like, this is a big conglomerate of a media corporation and you see that different. A couple of people own everything. So we were both kind of saying it reminds us of like Disney and who? Disney. And all of the things that they do. Their Hulu partnerships. Discovery partnerships.

[02:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: ESPN. Yes. Lucasfilms with like Star Wars. How there's the theme parks, the cruise line.

[02:23] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[02:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I kept wondering, is this based on some big time media family?

[02:28] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[02:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: I didn't get a chance to look into that. But Portia, I think you looked up some interesting facts.

[02:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So unsurprisingly. There are about 15 billionaires and six corporations who own most of the US. Media outlets. So the biggest ones are at and T. What Comcast? The Walt Disney Company National Amusements, which includes Viacom, CBS News Corp. And Fox Corporation, which are both owned by the Murdochs. Not the same Murdochs.

[03:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Who are the Murdochs from that South Carolina documentary? Not those ones, but the other ones. Yeah, it's a toss up.

[03:09] Portia Pendleton: It's a similar name. It's an interesting name. Yeah, so I thought that was interesting. And then Sony and Hearst, I guess they're smaller.

[03:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow. I feel unwell learning that. So much of the media that we see is owned by a handful, two handfuls of people.

[03:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[03:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's kind of scary.

[03:35] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[03:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm curious what you thought, Portia, but as a psychiatrist, I was really fascinated by the family dynamics. And I was so thrilled when they showed them doing family therapy at the end, which we'll talk about in a little bit, but just getting a sense of what are these long standing dynamics that are really coming out as we see Logan, the patriarch of the family, maybe retiring, but maybe not. And like, who's going to get the company, right?

[04:05] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[04:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: So Logan has four children. I kept wondering, what is their birth order? Did you figure this out? I think Connor is the oldest, and I wonder if he has a different mom. I think he does because he's kind of more aloof. And then we have the three other children, kendall, Roman and Siobhan. I kept wondering if Roman and Siobhan were twins or like, I think Kendall's second oldest and like the first oldest of his nuclear family. And then Roman and Shiv, I couldn't figure out who's third, who's fourth. Are they twins?

[04:41] Portia Pendleton: I feel like they are probably very close in age, if anything. I got the vibe that Roman was younger, but I think it's just his personality and maybe a defense mechanism that he uses. But, yeah, I think it's definitely like a patriarchy family. Logan, it seems like, came from nothing and kind of started this entire company himself, so has a very different view of the world.

[05:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Kids do.

[05:11] Portia Pendleton: I mean, in the wealth depiction is extreme. You are only flying private. You have 20 homes, you call it. You don't have to when you water for yourself ever. I mean, it's like that.

[05:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're doing well. Real.

[05:27] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[05:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, this is this crazy rich. And again, probably on par with the people, the families who own these media companies.

[05:34] Portia Pendleton: I think that he still, to a degree, has an awareness of the world that his children do not. That they are kind of silver spoon fed and have really no regard in.

[05:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: A lot of ways for people.

[05:47] Portia Pendleton: I mean, the baseball scene, right?

[05:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: It made me disgust.

[05:53] Portia Pendleton: Me too.

[05:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, I don't know if I'm going to like this show.

[05:56] Portia Pendleton: Yes. Because it was early on and I was like, I don't like this.

[05:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: That was disgusting what Roman did with that little boy. And then you see them paying them off, and you see that a lot throughout season one is when they've had bad behavior. They pay people off, get them to sign an NDA. I thought Kendall really hit the nail on the head sort of like midway through season one when he was telling his dad, like, you're so jealous of what you've given your children. I think there's a lot of truth to that. So these are people who are like, uber wealthy. They're in a different stratosphere they all have these insane apartments in New York City.

[06:35] Portia Pendleton: Huge egos.

[06:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Huge egos.

[06:38] Portia Pendleton: No awareness.

[06:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: No very limited awareness.

[06:40] Portia Pendleton: Even.

[06:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, at first I thought Shiv might have some, and then as we got to the end, I was like, no, not her.

[06:46] Portia Pendleton: I feel that way back and forth with everyone. And one of the characters that I don't feel that much like he is just out of this world is Kendall. And I'm wondering if it's because of his substance use issues. I feel like that really humanizes him for me. And maybe whether it's through I don't know if he's had any substance abuse treatment or it sounds like he's been.

[07:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: To rehab a time or two.

[07:12] Portia Pendleton: And even his fellow substance use comrades, it's just something that affects everyone, regardless of your socioeconomic status. So I think I don't know if that gives him just some little extra viewpoint of the world that I don't think anyone else appears to have of his siblings.

[07:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, no, probably. I think yeah, you hit the nail in the head. It does humanize him. I was so sad when he relapsed and I was really sad he relapsed with Smirnoff and then went right to math. I was like, oh, wow, it's really ratcheting up very quickly. And that is a good point, Portia, that substance abuse can affect anyone from all walks of life. And actually the rates are higher in licensed professionals compared to the general population, which most people are shocked to find out. That's something I used to tell a lot of people when I'd see them in the Er. And maybe they're a fellow mental health worker or a doctor or an attorney or a social worker or a teacher or physical therapist or what have you, that the rates of substance abuse are higher in people who hold some sort of professional license. So it isn't that more education, more socioeconomic resources necessarily shield you from that. And I think we see a lot of that in teenagers who maybe grow up in really affluent communities with less supervision. Like I'm imagining these four had growing up. I don't know. I just wonder what their attachments were like to anyone. Did they have a nanny or they must have had nanny, something that they felt connected to. We haven't met that person yet.

[08:58] Portia Pendleton: And I don't think I mean, in my opinion, based on me making up their childhood, I feel like they probably didn't have as good as an attachment they could have with a nanny. And maybe it's because nannies were fired regularly or like there was a high turnover because the expectations were so unreasonable. Because I know people who have nannies and opairs come in, have strongly attached childhood, don't turn into kind of how this family is and then other families who have opairs nannies do.

[09:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And I would imagine that the mom who we don't meet till the end, I kept wondering where's the mom where's the mom?

[09:39] Portia Pendleton: What is she like? Yes.

[09:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought that was an important choice not to show her right. Until the wedding. I bet that's just how she's related to all the kids the whole time.

[09:49] Portia Pendleton: I bet.

[09:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: This is what I'm imagining. Their childhoods. Were they're, like, living in a castle or whatever? Very fancy place in New York City. Dad is working all the time, doesn't really care about them, except as sort of, like, bolstering his own image. And then Mom, I don't think would have worked, but also probably wasn't hands on or invested in them. And so they probably did have nannies. But I would imagine that then mom maybe felt competitive with the nanny and would fire her. Or if the kids did start to grow attached to the nanny and not her, I could see that creating issues and leading to a lot of different caretakers coming in and out, which I don't think is good for the kids. Right. That's my hypothesis about what their upbringing was like. I have no idea if we'll see any more backstory to that or not, but they all certainly are displaying traits, at least of various personality disorders in the cluster B range, from borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, to antisocial personality disorder.

[10:56] Portia Pendleton: Well, I guess who should we start with? Do we want to just maybe, like, quickly we talked a little bit about Kendall. Anything else you want to add? So it seems like he's separated or divorced from his wife.

[11:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think they're separating. Yes, you're right.

[11:10] Portia Pendleton: Because they talk about it later at the wedding.

[11:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: So at first I hated him. The first couple of episodes, I just hated him. I thought he was such a douchebag. Like, sorry to use that word, but I think he is in the way. He's so rude and aggressive to all the business people. Maybe that's how business is done. I don't know. I don't do business. He's so rude and gross and vulgar, and he really thought really highly of himself and would get so offended when someone would mention, like, do you want to call your dad? Or should we run this by your dad? Which is, like, the only reason he's in that position.

[11:43] Portia Pendleton: I love when he said back, though, to one of one, do you want to call your dad? Yeah. I was like, that's funny.

[11:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: So at first, I hated him, and then as I saw the dynamic between Kendall and his dad play out, I felt so sad for him. And then those I just got chills thinking of the final scenes after. So they're at the wedding. He's trying to get drugs. He goes for a ride with a waiter or something, and he's the one driving, and he even says, like, it's been a long time since I drove. And the waiter is like and they're on the other side of the other.

[12:18] Portia Pendleton: Side of the road, right?

[12:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because they're in, I think, they're in somewhere in England. And the waiter is like, oh, really?

[12:23] Portia Pendleton: Like, why?

[12:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he's like, Well, I'm insanely wealthy, so people usually drive me around. And then again, the car accident. The guy dies and he leaves.

[12:32] Portia Pendleton: And he tried to go back twice. So I count yes, because I thought that that was, like, an important moment. He did demonstrate some empathy and compassion and regard for humanity.

[12:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Shame and regret.

[12:49] Portia Pendleton: Back two times to try to get to him. It appears like it's cold. I mean, this isn't pleasant. It's life or death. And then he kind of comes to realize that he can't get to him and just I mean, then he's in shock. Interesting, because he kind of then immediately shuts down. He walks back. He's just like he gets inside. He takes that bath.

[13:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God.

[13:11] Portia Pendleton: Cleans off.

[13:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. He has to break in to get inside because he lost his room key. That was just so chilling, that whole portrayal. But I thought it would spot on portrayal of what it must feel like to be in shock and just sort of going through the motions and trying to cover your *** by showing up to the after party and the brunch the next day and all this stuff. I was kind of surprised that the authorities or his dad or whoever was able to piece together that he was there by his room key. I was like, would they really find the room key? Whatever. So they did, right?

[13:48] Portia Pendleton: And why was it his room key? Why wasn't it just, like, a room key to the house? So somebody who was working right at the property had that seems strange that they right.

[13:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: That seems like a detail that realistic.

[13:59] Portia Pendleton: That is.

[14:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But okay, fine, we'll give it to you. And then the way the dad uses oh, my God. Masterfully.

[14:04] Portia Pendleton: As soon as that happened, and I just assumed that this person was dead, and as he's kind of walking home.

[14:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, this is going to happen.

[14:13] Portia Pendleton: His dad gets him back under his 100%.

[14:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: So, again, to sort of recap the plot, if it's been a while since you watched season one or if you haven't watched it yet. So his dad, Logan, is the first episode, like, about to announce he's retiring. Kendall is going to take over. And then at the last minute, he's like, I changed my mind.

[14:31] Portia Pendleton: I'm going to stay on.

[14:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he really crushes Kendall's dreams.

[14:34] Portia Pendleton: Then he has some medical issues.

[14:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: He has, like, a hemorrhagic stroke, which I thought they portrayed really well and accurately at first. I thought the dad was faking it. I thought he was what we say malingering is like the fancy psychology word for sort of feigning symptoms for secondary gain. I really thought he was faking it at first because all the kids were bickering about who's going to be CEO, who's going to be CEO, and then.

[14:58] Portia Pendleton: Changing the trust for marcia.

[15:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: That was interesting.

[15:01] Portia Pendleton: And they were kind of all trying to fight her, right?

[15:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then eventually he gets back to work and, quote unquote, recovers, even though he was not ready purely to keep Kendall from taking the reins, it seems like. So the whole season, you see this push and pull between him and Kendall, and then eventually Kendall tries to hostile takeover. Hostile takeover. This bear hug, all these business words I don't understand, but basically try to use the shareholders to vote them out. They try to do the vote, remember? Oh, my gosh, we'll talk about that in a minute. And then eventually the dad learned about this hostile takeover. It was like, going, okay. And then Kendall's another good example of always getting in your own way, right? Like, he just keeps getting in his own way, getting in his own way. Telling Frank when he shouldn't, like, trusting this person when you shouldn't, like, going out to score drugs the night before the hostile takeover meeting. And then it all gets foiled. And so his dad learns about the fact that he was at the crash site and basically is like, come back and work with me, and I'll take care of it.

[16:08] Portia Pendleton: And he really becomes you just think that he's going to be his dad's right hand man. He does whatever I say. Now he's going to take the fall for this. He's going to do this.

[16:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it wasn't even for me, Portia. Like, the fact that he would use that against him, it was the fact that that was the only moment we saw the dad have any type of affection for Kendall, giving him a hug, saying, like, you're my first boy. I love you. And it was all manipulative. There was, like, not an ounce of authenticity there. It was so disgusting to me.

[16:42] Portia Pendleton: So Kendall pairs with, it seems like a college buddy, Stewie, and Stewie is in a private investment firm. And then Kendall tries to get Stewie to kind of buy and help with the board, because I guess Stewie has votes. Again, this is not my all business.

[16:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Word, like shares and stocks, and I'm all like, I really don't understand. This must be what people feel like when we say medicine and psychology words.

[17:06] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, all the three letter, all the acronyms, acronyms over and over again.

[17:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: We could just use, like, okay, but.

[17:15] Portia Pendleton: Kendall, I think he just adds a really helpful, humanistic flavor to you.

[17:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: You definitely see his humanity. And so I did look up some facts about Jeremy Strong, who's the actor who plays Kendall, because I'd heard his name in the news, like celebrity media news, not like, hard hitting news, I don't think. And I just thought it was interesting that he's the one who is really into method acting. So, like, when he's playing a character, he lives as the character. And if you read a little bit about succession, which I'm trying to avoid. But some of his other castmates say it can be hard to work with.

[17:54] Portia Pendleton: Wow.

[17:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because he's always the character and he's married to a psychiatrist, which I thought was really interesting.

[18:01] Portia Pendleton: Love that for him. Yeah.

[18:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think there were some things on his Wikipedia page or something where either he or she was talking about how it can be hard because he'll have this identity diffusion was the phrase they used. How wild. Right. I thought that was fascinating. And I'm like seeing it, though, in his acting, being so shocked. But can you imagine being his wife and having to live with him, living as Kendall?

[18:29] Portia Pendleton: Kendall is so desperate for connection and intimacy and for his father specifically to validate him. And I think that he though, by doing that, pushes everyone away and becomes.

[18:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really isolated and is often, I think, really lonely. I think so, too. And the expense of his children. Right. So that scene, was it Thanksgiving?

[18:53] Portia Pendleton: Yes. It's only a couple of episodes in that was shocking to me. So they're at Thanksgiving, everyone's invited. It seems like pretty uncomfortable.

[19:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love that. It was like such a typical uncomfortable family holiday.

[19:07] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. This is the norm. So Tom appears to this be like a first holiday with Shiv because he's like, shocked. He's like, why don't we go around the table and say thanks? Which, again, is like such a normal and Tom regular person thing.

[19:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Tom's like this, like, good old Midwestern boy who's, like, marrying Shiv. I still get the icks from him right away. One of my first three notes in my notes app as I was watching this was Tom Gross. So I just have this feeling he's going to be a surprise sociopath at the end.

[19:37] Portia Pendleton: We'll see.

[19:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: But yeah, so they're going around and everyone's kind of like they're just so mean to him. They really put down everyone who's not in their family.

[19:47] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[19:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: So gross.

[19:48] Portia Pendleton: Right. This is a brief character, but Logan's brother, Ewan, who is like very anti capitalist, anti politics flavor that Logan is, like anti technology.

[20:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: He lives out in the boonies alone and wants to be left alone, but he's still on the board and so has a vote and shows up at key moments.

[20:11] Portia Pendleton: And it's unclear if he had an early, important role because I think it's like, if he didn't, why does he have, it seems like hundreds of millions of dollars as well. He's very wealthy, has board seats. So I'm wondering, did Logan and Ewan, did they started something and then got out really fast and Logan bought him out and so on? Because Logan maybe yes. I just don't think he would give his brother hundreds of millions for no reason.

[20:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Let's make a pact here now, Portia, that when this podcast takes off, we won't turn into Logan and Yan. Okay. Pinky promise.

[20:46] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[20:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or Shiv or any of them.

[20:49] Portia Pendleton: Roman any of them. Greg maybe.

[20:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: But yeah, I love Greg. We'll get to him in a second. He's like the best. But yeah.

[20:56] Portia Pendleton: So back to Thanksgiving.

[20:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: So, again, this is where Logan so he has like a hemorrhagic stroke. Like, a lot of people die from this. Very serious again, I loved the scenes of them, like, in the hospital. You want the best care, dictating care.

[21:09] Portia Pendleton: Where we need to go.

[21:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have this neurologist on the phone.

[21:13] Portia Pendleton: Totally.

[21:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. It totally happened.

[21:15] Portia Pendleton: They're in a special wing.

[21:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: They have a special boardroom. This happens. But anyway, so then we see Logan coming back to work mostly to screw Kendall.

[21:25] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. He pees in the office. He doesn't know where he is a couple of times.

[21:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's a couple of things where with stuff like that, like the peeing in the office when he grabs Siobhan's hand when she goes in to see him and moves it toward his crotch.

[21:36] Portia Pendleton: Oh, yeah.

[21:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Some parts where you're like, are you confused and delirious or is this deliberate? I thought the thing was Siobhan was confusion and delirium, but the peeing in Kendall's office, I was not sure.

[21:47] Portia Pendleton: I feel like that was deliberate because it was Kendall's. Okay.

[21:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I feel like that was deliberate, but he knew he could get a pass, maybe. I don't know. It seemed like if it had been anyone else's office, I might think it's more just confusion, but I think he just had a way of building Kendall up to shut him down at the last moment. I think he really enjoyed that, which gross me. But then getting back to Thanksgiving, so they're playing this game where they pass around this, like, cranberry sauce or something.

[22:22] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And I think it's like you just have to remember going to the market. Right. So I'm going to the market for a can of beans and you say, I'm going to the market for a can of beans and turkey. And then I have to say both.

[22:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of those, like one of those games used to play at camp. I also loved Sidebar, that they kept bringing him the cranberry sauce in the camp. Like, everyone knew he loved that. It's just so weird. You would think that would humanize him, but no, it doesn't. And then the little boy who this was Kendall's son, right. Who had a hard time transitioning in. And so I felt like the mom was doing a good job, like sitting with him, trying to make him feel comfortable to bring him in. And then Logan was getting so irate over it. Logan, definitely. I think parents, like, you say, what I yeah.

[23:07] Portia Pendleton: With an iron.

[23:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, you do what I say no matter what.

[23:10] Portia Pendleton: Authoritarian.

[23:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, authoritarian, for sure. And I think Kendall's maybe trying to do it differently, but this is definitely where you see the pull. And then the little boy tells Logan, like, you're doing it wrong or you're.

[23:24] Portia Pendleton: Getting it wrong and he lost. You lost.

[23:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he hits him in the face with that can really quick, really hard. I was shocked.

[23:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[23:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: I felt so uncomfortable.

[23:35] Portia Pendleton: I think I audibly gasped. Me too. Because it was so out of left field. And I think you didn't know in that moment specifically, is this a lingering from the upper stroke or has he done this before? Right?

[23:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think he's done it before.

[23:52] Portia Pendleton: But it was horrible.

[23:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was horrific to watch. Just awful. I feel so bad for that little boy. But then, even then, Kendall still doesn't fully stand up for his kids. I don't know, he's still so torn.

[24:07] Portia Pendleton: It's like he is probably to the best.

[24:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I keep wondering, why don't they all just take their bazillions of dollars and get out of there?

[24:21] Portia Pendleton: I don't know if it's all like a majority is tied up in the company or the company. Whereas in like, if Logan wanted to say, you're all cut off, like, he could you know what I mean? Maybe they would have nothing. Which is just such also, like a power move. Right?

[24:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think you're totally right.

[24:41] Portia Pendleton: So, anyway, I think Kendall I enjoyed his storyline throughout the show. I'm telling sad, but I think it helped me get into the show for sure.

[24:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm really sad. He relapsed. And then when Logan would want Greg, who's like this cousin who came out of nowhere. So I loved at the beginning episodes when Greg is like the mascot at.

[25:06] Portia Pendleton: The theme park, he throws up his eyes.

[25:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And he's like, talking to his mom on the phone. Like, I didn't smoke.

[25:13] Portia Pendleton: I was just in the car. It just smelled. I don't know.

[25:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know if the contact hot. I can't tell you how many times Portia I would work in the Er and people would come in high as kites and we would say their urine toxicology screen is lighting up like a Christmas tree, which means everything's positive. And I literally would hear this all the time, but I didn't do it. Just someone in the car. And it's like, that's not how it works. We all know that's not how it works.

[25:41] Portia Pendleton: This isn't program where we did in home family therapy for teens with primary substance use. And sometimes I'm like, why was I doing this? Just like, it's a funny part of the job. So I would bring in the little bottle or the little container for them to do, like, a urine sample, and they would go into the bathroom. And then I'm thinking, too, they'd like, Hand it to me. This isn't like a clinical setting where it's like, we have gloves, put it.

[26:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: In that little shelf, and then you.

[26:13] Portia Pendleton: Have gloves, a nurse or someone else, then, who's running the test is like putting it in the bath, really. So then I'd, like, wash my hands and obviously piles of hand sanitizer everywhere. And I remember it just saying multiple pretty significant substances. It was not marijuana. It was very and them just denying it.

[26:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm like, but it says here denial is very strong in substance use disorders. It's the primary defense in just teen life. Right?

[26:48] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Why was it there a picture of you there? Well, that's not me, but your face.

[26:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know what to tell you. It is.

[26:57] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So Greg is I love him. I think he's like the comic relief because he's just, like, kind of walking around.

[27:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: This cousin Greg comes out of nowhere somehow. The sister, I think, is Logan's sister, maybe, or no, the sister is Ewen's daughter. That's how it is. There's some family rift there, which I wonder if we'll learn more about later on. But he's so funny. He's like, mom? What's? Me? I have no money. Bail me out. She's like, no, I'm done. Go see your uncle and he'll give you a job or something. And he shows up right before Logan has this stroke and he's, like, trying to get a job.

[27:39] Portia Pendleton: I like him.

[27:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: I also think he's smart. So I was really happy for him when Tom, who's Shiv's now husband, like the good old boy from the Midwest who I don't think is all that good of a boy, asked Greg to destroy all those documents that would basically implicate the company and some kind of awful cover up through the years. And Greg was smart enough to keep some. I was like, yes, Greg.

[28:07] Portia Pendleton: Greg.

[28:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I wonder I'm betting that'll come out in later seasons. And you can see how Greg is kind of doofy as he comes across, does have that smart side to him. And Logan picks that up at some points and is like, yeah, did you.

[28:24] Portia Pendleton: See or obviously you did because he watched it when they went to the restaurant. So Tom and Greg and he's like, introducing them to fine dining.

[28:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Greg was like, oh, I want to go to California Pizza Kitchen. And I was like, I loved that place in med school. Yeah. But then Tom is like, oh, California.

[28:44] Portia Pendleton: But Greg has already had dinner with Ewan and a lot because Ewan is like, you got to eat it all. There's somebody so Greg has this huge noodle dish and then goes to this fine dining, which I will say at fine dining, when you are doing a tasting menu, it is really small and.

[29:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: It'S supposed to be like a bite of each. Like, maybe you could get away with that.

[29:03] Portia Pendleton: But still he seems really full, like.

[29:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: A sparrow or something. And they had to cover themselves because it's, like, illegal. And I was like, but did they really? Or was Tom doing that? I was like, oh, yeah, you have.

[29:16] Portia Pendleton: To do this because it's this rare bird.

[29:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then everyone else around the restaurant can see they're not, like, in a back room.

[29:22] Portia Pendleton: You should look that up.

[29:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or if you're listening and, you know, send us a DM. Yeah, but that's where I think Tom really enjoys getting one over on Greg. Like, right away. You see that when he like, they're at that weird baseball thing, remember, and and I wonder, like, is he dressed with Shiv to, like, marry into this family? Like, I wouldn't be surprised. And then we have shiv.

[29:45] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[29:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: So beautiful. Redhead.

[29:47] Portia Pendleton: Interesting. I don't know what to think of her.

[29:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know how to place her.

[29:51] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[29:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Also, she's always in a pantsuit, and I just keep thinking, like, aren't you so uncomfortable all day wearing a pantsuit?

[29:59] Portia Pendleton: But you know what?

[30:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: They're probably the most tailored that's true. Perfect fit you've ever silk or, like, whatever fancy.

[30:06] Portia Pendleton: Not tight around the waist. I think I'm just like, can someone do that for me?

[30:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: But they're all in suits all the time, and I'm just like, don't you just want to put on a T shirt? But they don't.

[30:18] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, even when so I think I don't know why I'm just thinking of Roman here, but he often to me appears the most dressed down, and he's in pants and rolled dress leaves, but he looks the most relaxed versus, like, a full suit. Not in sleeves. Right.

[30:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, Kendall always has, like, a new dry clean suit every day. Rowan's, like, in a suit, but it's rolled up. He's doing, like, working out in his office. Remember when he masturbated in the beginning when he was made COO, and he's, like, in his office and he masturbates, like, all over the window and barely cleans it up because he knows someone else will? That's so gross.

[30:55] Portia Pendleton: He's a strange cat.

[30:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, that's, like, a really polite way of saying it.

[31:01] Portia Pendleton: Portray I don't know where to place him.

[31:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Let's go back to Shiv. Let's go back to Shiv. I know we're, like, jumping all around, but it's hard not to.

[31:09] Portia Pendleton: So Shiv I don't know what to place, like, specifically, way more than Roman. I just feel like she she was a surprise. I like her. I don't like her. I like her. I don't like her. She does something that I'm like, and she does something that makes me feel bad.

[31:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Until episode, like, seven, probably, or eight, I was like, okay, she's the only quote unquote normal one. Or she's, like the only one with a whiff of a moral compass, wanting to go into politics and seemingly to root for the guy who's fighting for the common man, wanting to maybe break away from the family in that way, but feels like she can't fully probably like you're saying because she might get cut off or something. She's with Tom, who's not, like, a ******, fancy guy, like, sort of a normal guy. So you're thinking, okay, maybe she's, like, the most well adjusted, but then we see. Again, I think even her being with Tom is, like, fueling her narcissistic ego. Like, look, I'm such a good person. I'm with this normal guy.

[32:07] Portia Pendleton: I have a stable relationship per her. Right. I'm trying to think of the guy's name that she is very flirty with and also, like, masturbates with. He works for Gill.

[32:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Really attractive, whatever his name is. It seemed like they'd had a fling or something in the yeah, they were.

[32:30] Portia Pendleton: Like, past coworkers, FBI. Right.

[32:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then now she's engaged. I think he's engaged, and they're working together under this campaign for Gil, and they're really toeing the line, and then they cross it, and it keeps happening. Even at her wedding. He's, like, grabbing her and all this stuff. And it was really sad when Greg tried to bring it to Tom's attention. You could tell Tom just, like, didn't want to hear it.

[32:52] Portia Pendleton: And when I was really sad for Tom, when she kind of dropped the bomb at the wedding night that she wanted, like, an open marriage after the.

[33:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wedding, like, at the reception, they're up in the room, and he's like, I wish you would have told me that before. And when Tom was like, but I do love you.

[33:13] Portia Pendleton: I know. And I don't want that. Right. And then he kind of agrees because.

[33:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he feels like he has no choice.

[33:19] Portia Pendleton: What guy maybe and this is being a little bit, like, stereotypical. Right. Like, he's the guy not wanting an open relationship. Right. What guy wouldn't want that at a bachelor party?

[33:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: He felt like he had to do something, but then he was, like, calling her, like, okay, is this okay? Is this not okay? And then Roman brings the girl.

[33:37] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. She doesn't know how to have a stable, secure relationship, an authentic relationship.

[33:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. People are objects, I think, to her, which we often see with narcissism. But I think she maintains this air of morality and plays the martyr or the victim a lot of the time.

[34:01] Portia Pendleton: And I think, as a whole, I think what's interesting to remember is you almost can't not be a narcissist in this family to survive. Right. You have to be, I think, sometimes, right. Genes versus our environment. It's like this is a norm in this family. And also, I think, to a degree, like, at this level of wealth, maybe. Yes.

[34:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: And also, I think sociopathy goes right along with that. At that level of wealth and power, you've screwed people over. There's no way around it. And this show maybe we won't get to fully talk about it today, but I think you see the difference between overt and covert narcissism depicted really nicely. I think Shiv is more of a covert narcissist. And also, I think we often think of narcissists as being, like, the person taking up all the air in the room, really gregarious and outgoing, talking about themselves all the time, really charming. But a lot of times, even when they're more of a covert kind of flavor and they're more passive and things like that, the real inner wound is just this intense feeling of insecurity and almost like nothingness unless you're able to put someone else down to keep yourself up. And I feel like Shiv is really demonstrating that even with this guy who we can't remember his name and Tom kind of playing them off each other to sort of feel wanted by a man, and she probably doesn't feel wanted by her dad. So now that her mom and my.

[35:31] Portia Pendleton: Tom isn't enough to fill that void because she needs to do some inner child work, if that's possible. But she needs it to get it from even other people.

[35:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: She can't tolerate it.

[35:43] Portia Pendleton: And this is like a new marriage, relatively new relationship. Maybe they've been dating for years, but you're not in your 10th year where you're trying to spice things up and.

[35:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: You'Re like, hey, let's try it.

[35:54] Portia Pendleton: This it just seems so strange. And when she tells it's bizarre. It seems like maybe she's freaked out that she's like, locked in and she's like, and we're going to have an open marriage and that's fine. What do you mean? That's weird, right? We have this working partnership and we.

[36:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just maybe will sleep with others and.

[36:11] Portia Pendleton: He'S like, she's manipulating gaslighting him to think it's normal.

[36:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Very different from the polyamory we saw depicted in you. Season three was Sherry and Carrie, which had some like, boundaries and forethought and openness and dialogue. God, I miss Sherry and Carrie right about now.

[36:37] Portia Pendleton: So let's talk about Roman.

[36:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God, we need a whole bonus episode for Roman.

[36:42] Portia Pendleton: Roman to me is so projective, so defensive, so provocative that it's so obvious that he's so wounded and he displays.

[36:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Being an abuse victim so well. Like, when they're at that vote and he's like trying to put his hand up and the dad says something, you just see him flinch. Like those flinches, the downcast eyes, like being so scared around his dad. Really giving me chill. Spot on depiction of a child who's been abused by this parent and is now around him a lot and tries to give off this go with the flow, like whatever persona, but totally is terrified all the time. Yeah, a lot of acting out, like, outwardly instead of the substance use, which you kind of think of as like acting out inwardly.

[37:31] Portia Pendleton: And I could see him as a child being awkward, quirky. Maybe he has ADHD. He does have ADHD.

[37:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: I really do.

[37:40] Portia Pendleton: Punished relentlessly for it. Like, sit down. No, maybe getting hit versus like, I feel like could maybe be quiet more. Tolerate being quiet more. Shiv can tolerate more, but I don't think Roman Cane and I feel like that to me, maybe he seems so much more like abused and different.

[37:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: He does, doesn't he? And then the whole thing about the dog cage that came out.

[38:02] Portia Pendleton: Do you remember that? Remind me.

[38:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh my God. Because it's awful. So at the bachelor party for Tom, somehow it comes out that a game, quote, unquote, they used to play as kids was Kendall would lock Roman in a dog crate and feed him out of, like, a doggie dish. And Roman has held onto this forever. And I think that's probably part of the deep seated resentment competitiveness they have.

[38:32] Portia Pendleton: It's just terrible detail.

[38:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then at the bachelor party, kendall's going around and even ask Connor, yeah, he enjoyed that game, right? It was a game, right? Like, Kendall can't believe that he was participating in something that wasn't being enjoyable for him. And then Connor says, Well, dad would make you do it. He would watch. That's probably why you blocked it out, because that is so dark, but totally tracks, doesn't it? And again, that's why I think Kendall's older than Roman, I think is and Shiv's a girl.

[39:08] Portia Pendleton: She's still getting the same flavor. She's still in the same family. But I think there is a tiny thread that's like the size of Vestrand of hair difference for that, where she's still like a daughter versus a son. Yes.

[39:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: He doesn't feel logan, I don't think, feels as competitive with her because she's a girl. He probably also is very misogynistic and so doesn't think much of girls, so he doesn't think she can really go toes with him. But, yeah, Roman, I go back and forth between vomiting on the TV when he's on screen because his behavior is so atrocious and then feeling so sad for him. So sad. And I do think he has ADHD and probably borderline personality disorder, as he said. And why wouldn't he? Yeah, why wouldn't he?

[40:01] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. I'm really interested, excited, nervous to see where his storyline goes throughout the show.

[40:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's just always saying the most provocative, uncomfortable things. And I think that's because that's how he feels inside all the time.

[40:20] Portia Pendleton: There was some really small sprinkle of info that we got about his sex life in season one with the first.

[40:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Girlfriend who he broke up with, because I don't think they had sex.

[40:33] Portia Pendleton: Right. And so she was like, Why don't we this isn't even a real relationship, or something like that. We're not even breaking up because we never were even together. We would never have sex. So I'm curious about his impotence.

[40:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I think a lot of these men feel really impotent around their dad. Logan and in that way, it's, like, really concrete. So that is an interesting detail that's when he brings the girl that Tom hooked up oh, yeah. And again, just like the detail that she gave him a ******* and then.

[41:06] Portia Pendleton: She redistributed his body fluid to him.

[41:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he swallowed it.

[41:11] Portia Pendleton: So it was not cheating because it stayed in his body.

[41:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he kept trying to be like, what? It's a thing.

[41:18] Portia Pendleton: It's a thing. Everyone was like, that's.

[41:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, really not a thing.

[41:23] Portia Pendleton: Strange for that to occur, I would say. And this is not a judgment on people who practice this, but I feel like it's more strange to have the exchange of fluids that way than the actual *******.

[41:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[41:39] Portia Pendleton: At the party. It was a butcher party. I am personally not pleased by that behavior, but seems like that to me was like, what? Whoa.

[41:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I also could imagine him being shocked. Like, maybe she came in for a kiss. And then he was like, oh, yeah.

[41:54] Portia Pendleton: What do I do now?

[41:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I just loved when he was trying to be like it was a thing. It's a thing, guys.

[42:01] Portia Pendleton: So then we have briefly we have Connor's, the older brother. He's like not seemingly involved. Shares.

[42:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought he was going to be like the most well adjusted one until he's like, I'm going to run for president.

[42:15] Portia Pendleton: Pretty delusional.

[42:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that relationship with Willa, I'm really curious porsche to hear your thoughts about.

[42:22] Portia Pendleton: I just feel like it's not surprising at all. Like he's paying this woman to have a relationship with him. And it's so like and everyone know.

[42:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: It takes a while before you realize that she is a sex worker.

[42:39] Portia Pendleton: And she's a playwright.

[42:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: And a playwright. Because they were always like, oh, why is Willa here? Oh, no, Willa's here again. And I was like, what's wrong with Willa? Is she like a toxic ex? Or why are they upset? And then it comes out. And then you're like and then he's like, yeah, I'll pay for you to your playwright.

[43:00] Portia Pendleton: He wants more from her thinking.

[43:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, she's taking him up on it, but only because he's like footing the bill. He's paying for it. So again, here again, it's like all four of these children inability to have a secure, authentic relationship, not only with a spouse or a romantic partner, but even with children, which so far we only see with Kendall, but also, like their friends. They don't really have any real friends. No, it's either like they get something.

[43:31] Portia Pendleton: Out of the old school. People who seems like who have been around for a long time. We have like Jerry, I think they're like attorney, like their in house legal counsel. And then Frank, who seems really close with Logan, who is treated poorly and then brought back in and then tries to take over with Kendall.

[43:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, it's just like, yeah, you can't keep where's the alliance here and again with Frank. It's like, why do you keep coming back? It's like all these people come back to Logan. I think because he has all the power portia we can't wrap up before we talk about the family.

[44:08] Portia Pendleton: Therapy. Therapy such a power move. And so they only did it for optics. So there'd be a family photo, which doesn't materialize. Kendall is off the deep end doing meth at a meth house. That Roman then picks him up. The therapist dies, headfirst into the pool.

[44:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: This therapist is the actor who played Nikki in that show. This is us. I don't know if you watch that.

[44:31] Portia Pendleton: No.

[44:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Such a good show. Very different from this. But I was like, oh, it's that guy. So he's the therapist. Always weird to, like, fly your therapist to you, but I'm sure rich people do this. And then they're having this quote, unquote, family therapy. I liked how the kids didn't just participate in the way their dad wanted them to. It was such bullshit.

[44:54] Portia Pendleton: And they finally I think they took a break and then they never came back. So right before the break, Shiv said something like, well, this is bullshit, right? So I'm not going to participate. Right?

[45:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: And so I wrote down a couple of key quotes from that that I loved. I think maybe the therapist starts off with this, or maybe there's a toast at, like, a breakfast or something. But they say they **** you up, your mom and dad. They do not mean to, but they do. They fill you up with faults they had and add a little extra too.

[45:23] Portia Pendleton: That's great. What a limerick. Who says that?

[45:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: I forget, I thought it was the therapist. Maybe I'm pretty sure it was to open the session and be a little funny or something.

[45:36] Portia Pendleton: Maybe I should say that.

[45:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then the dad like just saying his party line. Such a narcissistic thing to do. And again, we keep going back to our episodes on you, but it's just such a good show. When we were talking about if the Quinn family went to therapy, what would it have been like? I feel like it would have been like this, except maybe the dad wouldn't have showed up. The only reason Logan showed up was to get the photo to boost his PR image and the stock price. But then the dad's just saying something like, everything I've ever done is for my children and I love them.

[46:09] Portia Pendleton: That's it. That's like as warm as it gets.

[46:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's nothing else. And I wrote down the therapist is like, well, kids or whoever, what do you think about that? And I think Shiv said, I hear it. And then I think Roman said big words.

[46:22] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, the extent of their reaction.

[46:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I loved that they just didn't play the role that they knew he wanted them to. And then the therapist, like, dives into the pool and busts teeth out and you're like, what? Family therapist is like, swimming around. It's just wild.

[46:40] Portia Pendleton: And Logan is like, almost rightfully so.

[46:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, what the f like, what? This just exploded in his face. Oh, my God. So I think that's a great depiction of how family therapy shouldn't be, right? It shouldn't be like that, but probably.

[47:00] Portia Pendleton: Can go to therapy and like, totally bullshit. You often see as a therapist, these dynamics play out so clear as day, right? Like the parent maybe, who just repeats the same thing over and over again, or who's playing the victim. And then you see a kid who almost like, sadly is really trying. And then the other kids who have just which totally checked out Shiv and Roman seem to like they're just like, I'm not going to say I'm not going to throw the stone at myself. I'm not going to throw myself under the bus here.

[47:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then so you need to have a therapist who's really in it for the right reason to be able to I think you also would have to navigate and understand is this even a safe space? Absolutely. Stop it. The ethical thing would have been like, we're not going to continue. I'm going to leave because it's not safe. It's clearly an abusive dynamic. They're not safe to be open. And you're just, like, enabling this awful abusive behavior. Oh, man.

[48:05] Portia Pendleton: So stay tuned for season two coming.

[48:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Up in two weeks.

[48:08] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, we're excited. We've been diving into the content like crazy, and it's so good. I just can't stop watching.

[48:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love shows like this.

[48:17] Portia Pendleton: But like, always make sure that you are following us on Instagram and TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast on TikTok and then at Analyze Scripts on Instagram. And we will have some really exciting guests over the next couple of months as well, so stay tuned.

[48:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: And some light hearted summer movies coming your way too, to sort of break up the sociopathy.

[48:38] Portia Pendleton: Well, you never know.

[48:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, yeah, that is true. Surprising when you find these people sometimes. All right, see you next Monday.

[48:47] Portia Pendleton: Bye bye.

[48:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

[49:59] Portia Pendleton: Our channel.

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TRIGGER WARNING: This episode discusses potentially triggering topics including suicide, self-harm, and eating disorders.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. As two dancers, Dr. Furey and Portia were thrilled to revisit the 2010 psychological thriller "Black Swan" starring Natalie Portman, Mila Kunis, Barbara Hershey, and Winona Ryder. In this episode, we analyze the masterful depiction of Nina's first psychotic break and wonder if the character Lily was real or a hallucination. We also discussing toxic dance culture and discuss the differences between anorexia, bulimia, and binge eating disorder. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:17] Portia Pendleton: Hi there. So, yeah, before we get started today, I just kind of wanted to give a little trigger warning for some of the content. We will be discussing the film Black Swan. And there are some themes of suicide, self harm and eating disorders that we're going to discuss. So if that is something that is triggering or might be upsetting to you.

[00:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Please feel free to skip this episode.

[00:36] Portia Pendleton: And catch us next time. Thanks.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi. Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist, and I'm joined by my friend and colleague.

[00:50] Portia Pendleton: Portia Pendleton, a licensed social worker.

[00:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: We are just going to dive right in today. We're talking about the 2010 psychological thriller Black Swan. There's so much to talk about. So we just got to dive right in. Portia oh.

[01:04] Portia Pendleton: So I saw this movie in theaters when it came out.

[01:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think I had a couple of times.

[01:08] Portia Pendleton: Yay. Like dance movie.

[01:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think I went with some of my dance friends.

[01:11] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, it was supposed to be I actually don't think I knew that it was like a psychological thriller.

[01:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you think it was going to be like center stage?

[01:18] Portia Pendleton: Yes. I was expecting it to just be kind of like toxic ballet culture and some relationships. I went with my at the time boyfriend and now current partner. And I think he was traumatized from it. He was very confused. And I left that movie feeling like gross. Oh, yeah, I can remember it.

[01:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I remember you told me when I recommended this, you shuddered. And you were like, well, I'll have to watch it during the daylight hours.

[01:54] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I don't know. And maybe we will talk about this a little bit. Like if it's because it hit on stuff for me. But oh my gosh, there were just so many moments that I feel like physically make my skin crawl and make me feel so uncomfortable and shudder almost.

[02:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. It's a beautiful movie, period. I think it was nominated for a bunch of Oscars. I think Natalie Portman won an Oscar for best actress, rightfully so. But even like the physical stuff, like her scratches and skin peeling and all of those things. Exactly. And I think it's meant to make.

[02:36] Portia Pendleton: You feel that way. Yes. I feel like I'm very.

[02:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Visually impacted.

[02:43] Portia Pendleton: I guess in previous episodes, I talked about vomit a lot. Like, seeing actual vomit makes me crazy. But I work with people who sell farm and we've all seen, I'm sure, especially you in your training, like scars and even fresh cut wounds and things like that. That is just not bothersome to me at this point. But seeing someone peel their skin back, that literally makes me shudder. I feel like it's meant not, but.

[03:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it's totally meant to there when she's washing her hands on that scene. I think we all know what we're referring to there. But so to give a recap of the plot if you haven't watched it in a while. So this movie focuses on Nina, who is, like, prima ballerina, I think, in New York City Ballet. It seems like they're implying. And she really wants to be the lead dancer, the principal dancer in her company's production. She sort of goes back and forth with another character, Lily, who's played by Mila Kunis. A lot to say about her. And then her mother, nina's mother is played by Barbara Hershey. That dynamic. And their home is fascinating. I'm sure we'll get into it. And then there's, like, this gross director. We'll talk more about him, too, and.

[04:11] Portia Pendleton: Then I totally forgot about her. But Winona Ryder makes his parents as Beth, like, the retiring maybe on being forced to prima ballerina.

[04:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. And so I believe this movie really amazingly predicts, nina's first psychotic break. Is that how you interpreted it, too, or did you see other things?

[04:35] Portia Pendleton: No, I mean, I don't know what else I would call that. Yeah, I think throughout the movie, we see the really the final push right into that. But I have many questions, as I'm sure many people do. It's like, how did you get here and why? So I think the movie just starts off right away. We see this kind of relationship with mom. It almost feels a little bit like Mommy dear.

[05:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, I was going to say the same thing 100%.

[05:09] Portia Pendleton: It feels real icky.

[05:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, even Nina, she looks like she's meant to be, like, in her twenty s, I would guess, right. She alludes a couple of times to Beth being, like, 27 or 28. So she's, like, too old now to dance. So I think she's in her early 20s, maybe mid 20s. Like, maybe she's getting there. But she's, like, so infantilized, very childlike. Like, her room still has, like, pink flowers everywhere. Her mom tucks her in, brushes her hair. What did you think about when the mom fed her breakfast of a big old grapefruit and egg white?

[05:45] Portia Pendleton: I was like, oh, that's pretty spot on, I think, for, like, I'd say, right, like, toxic ballet culture to kind of remain very small in your body. Which is, I think, kind of a crazy feat because the amount of work that it takes to be a ballerina a ballerina. I mean, it's you are so strong, even though you look so small, like crazy.

[06:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[06:11] Portia Pendleton: I mean, your entire body physique is just muscle and strength.

[06:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But I thought it would depicted it so perfectly that they're so thin. They're, like, scary thin. I felt uncomfortable watching them. I remembered back then they had talked about Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis had talked about how much weight they had to lose. And they are already petite, period, like, just by themselves. But they both and I looked it up after I rewatched the movie, lost, like, at least £20 following these crazy, restrictive diets. And on the one hand, I'm like, that's really accurate for the roles they're playing. On the other hand, I feel really gross about that, just like in our society. And it makes me worry for them that they were able to sustain that, to play these roles and train.

[07:00] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[07:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Mila Kunis said that she survived on carrots and cigarettes, which is shocking. But yeah, I mean, they both looked so gaunt. And there's that physical therapy scene where someone's working on Nina and you just see her ribs, and it's just like, again, talk about feeling, like, visually uncomfortable, right?

[07:22] Portia Pendleton: I mean, it's like you're all kind of bones and so even kind of stepping away from the story a little bit. Like when she gets dropped on her knee, like, her ankle kind of snapping. At one point, I was so worried.

[07:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: About her bone density, just even from.

[07:39] Portia Pendleton: Being a dance, I guess. Specific ballet. I feel like I have a lot of physical.

[07:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: How do I say this?

[07:48] Portia Pendleton: Physical trauma from the act of dancing. Bleeding toes. Or I have knee problems. And so I think a movie like this, for me, again, really hits me in a physical sensation when she's on.

[08:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Her know what that feels like.

[08:05] Portia Pendleton: Oh, my gosh. Definitely my body tightened up exactly how that feels. Her getting the physical therapy, like you were just saying, it's brutal. The amount of training and pain that people at this level, I do believe and will say exist 100%.

[08:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I did appreciate in this movie that they really did show that. Especially, like, the dancer's feet, because, of course, when you're on point, your feet are disgusting. You have all these blisters, your toenails break. There's such physical trauma to your body and your feet. And they really displayed that in this movie. And I also was so curious. All of the ballerina's outfits, like their leotards, the shrugs they were wearing. All this stuff is just so accurate. And I also feel like now, looking at it as a physician, I'm so worried about all their labs. They probably all have labs suggestive of anorexia. They're probably all freezing all the time.

[09:08] Portia Pendleton: They probably all have a mennorrhea, so they are not getting their period.

[09:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: They probably every time she fell, I was so worried she was going to break something because I don't think I bet she has osteoporosis because she's not fueling herself. Like how gleeful she was at how pink that grapefruit was. So perfect. Like, such a good scene. But she clearly has an eating disorder. And then when her mom gets her the cake what did you think about that scene and the mom's reaction?

[09:38] Portia Pendleton: I thought it was interesting because I feel like the mom, on the one hand, really wants her right to be this, like, prima ballerina. And I feel like, you know what?

[09:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: The mom could never be, it sounds like because she got pregnant with her.

[09:47] Portia Pendleton: And so she serves her typically because, again, she is treated like a child, typically, like, pretty low calorically, dense food. And then it's like, you get her.

[09:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: This cake for a party size.

[09:58] Portia Pendleton: You're cutting her this big piece. Nina right.

[10:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: To celebrate that, she was chosen to be a Swan Queen.

[10:05] Portia Pendleton: So Nina is like, oh, I want a little smaller. And mom immediately is, like, so hurt.

[10:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[10:12] Portia Pendleton: Puts it right back on Nina. I'm going to throw it away. Makes Nina feel bad. Nina then apologizes and then eats it anyway. I'm sure she probably threw it up, but it was, like, a very strange moment besides Mom's mental health issues. But just like, you want your daughter to be this person. Let me back up a little bit. I felt like through the movie, the mom comes across as Mommy dearest. Like, kind of like abusive, weird, like manipulative, narcissistic.

[10:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: And we did see that dynamic. Remember, in center stage with that ballerina and her mom.

[10:49] Portia Pendleton: That's interesting too.

[10:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you remember that? I forget that ballerina's name. But that mom was also really involved in calling around and also involved. It's really similar. And I wonder if that's again, part of the ballet culture, if that happens.

[11:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So mom, in some ways, is trying to protect Nina. And it's almost like at the end, she sees Nina literally falling apart and losing her mind and doesn't want her to go through the role, obviously. Then Nina feels like then she ends up going to perform. That is later in the movie. But I thought that that was different. At first, mom comes across as just really inappropriate.

[11:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[11:30] Portia Pendleton: Just the paintings of Nina all over.

[11:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's some things in the movie that I'm sure we'll get into more that I really wondered about Nina's perception of it. And I wondered, are those paintings of her or are those examples of her hallucinating? But certainly the mom, it's just weird. It's just weird. They're very enmeshed. Mom strips off her clothes and brings her to clip her nails because she sees her scratching. It's just icky.

[12:01] Portia Pendleton: It gives me the ick.

[12:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's a really dysfunctional relationship.

[12:05] Portia Pendleton: Mom emerges from the dark of the apartment. At times. It's always like it's startling. It's scary. It feels like the mom is coming in to be mean. And I think you hit the nail on the head with what I was trying to allude to is, like, it's hard to know if mom is really as bad as she is or if it's Nina's perception paranoia. Right. Like, all kind of coming out throughout the movie. And I think initially, it seems like, really clear mom has all these issues. She's not a good mom. She's, like, making Nina to be this way, in my opinion. Then by the end of the movie, I'm really questioning, was she really that bad? Was she even really in the room? Was she really even coming in? I mean, right?

[12:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: 100%. Like, when she finally got that stick of some kind to keep her door shut when she was masturbating and turns over and mom's right there. Those kinds of scenes are just, like, no boundaries. But, yeah, I think it's a really interesting depiction of a toxic mother daughter relationship. But again, I think, like, Ford Nina's story and thinking about her first break. So we know that first psychotic breaks most often occur in that time frame for women. Like, between your twenty s and thirty s. For men, it's a little younger. It might be like late teens into your twenty s. And again, so you're like, okay, so let's rewind. And how did she get here? Like you were saying? So she has this relationship with her mom where she feels like she's supposed to be this prima ballerina her mother never could be. And she even said that thing to her about at one point. Nina is like, what career? To her mother and her mom's like, well, I would have had one if it weren't for you kind of thing. That's really toxic. But just thinking about the stress of that relationship, there's no dad in the picture or even alluded to. So we don't even know what kind of stress was there. What kind of stress was Nina under as a child growing up with this huge expectation on her? Who even knows if she wants it? So that's like A, and then B, we see that she seems to have a very neurotic personality. And I'd love for you to speak more to that, especially in your line of work.

[14:22] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, it seems like, right? Like, one, it's not a causation, but it's often a correlation. Right. So it's narotic a little bit Type A, I'd say, or a lot Type A compulsive. Again, there are a lot of rituals that kind of come out in just like I think the job right. It's like tying your point shoes a certain way. It's like you do all these things that are very ritualized and rich and rigid, and I think it's like a perfect opening for I think there's a lot of ballerinas, in my opinion, who probably do have OCD, probably are perfectionistic, 100%. And I think all of these traits and symptoms really kind of do fit hand in hand with eating disorders, both bulimia and anorexia. I think you see quite frequently in dance self harm. I think it's just, for whatever reason, it breeds just this type of person. Chicken or the egg.

[15:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[15:25] Portia Pendleton: I mean, I think if you think.

[15:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: About ballet, to take ballet classes, how many classes Nina has taken over the course of her life? Probably from the age of, like, three. Ballet classes aren't the most exciting thing to do.

[15:41] Portia Pendleton: Very repetitive.

[15:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Very repetitive. Boring. It's always classical music. Again, it's beautiful, but it takes a certain kind of personality to tolerate that and to do it to such a degree. These people are taking, like, seven classes a week this isn't like just once a week. You're doing it, and you've done it.

[16:02] Portia Pendleton: For years at that level.

[16:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. And to be on point, point hurts so bad. I remember I was so excited to finally get on point, and I was not the best ballerina, so it was like, late high school, and as soon as I did, I was like, I hate this, it hurts so bad. But to keep doing it despite the pain again, sounds like such a parallel with anorexia, like, being able to keep depriving yourself despite that physical pain, and.

[16:31] Portia Pendleton: Ultimately it's sometimes getting a little bit of pleasure from it. I feel like there's two ends of the spectrum. It's either, like, you're kind of numbing everything or you can kind of develop specific to anorexia, like a level of euphoria around starvation. And I think research says that also just fun. Fact anorexia really is the rarest eating disorder by far, and it's the most.

[16:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Fatal mental illness depicted, though.

[16:53] Portia Pendleton: So I think when we think of eating disorders, we think of anorexia, but that's not true. Anorexia is more rare, and like you said, it has the most fatalities. And there's really a certain type of profile that can maintain anorexia. Typically, people might start restricting and then kind of lean into bulimia because you cannot do it for that long.

[17:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Your biological drive to eat kicks in. Most people, if you can really push past that, like, whoa.

[17:24] Portia Pendleton: Right? I don't want to say normal, but it's really not part of a general experience to be able to do that. That's why we get all these signals. We get hangry, we get irritable. It's like our body's way of cueing us to eat, and most people don't feel good doing that. So it's like, there's this flair. I think it's a lot of genetic research. It's like, what makes some people be able to develop and maintain this disorder for sometimes, really sadly, like, decades. And why, you know, can't others do it? And it seems like there is some sort of a gene marker that makes, like, extreme hunger desirable, almost fascinating. It is really opposite of our human nature. Our human nature kicks in and we need to survive. So food and water and shelter is all a part of that. So it's like when your body is screaming at you that eating is dangerous. It's like that is so injecting that you are able to kind of over.

[18:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: In your brain and see the neural networks are just like flip flops. I wonder if there is some sort of, like, if there's so little, like, dopamine, which is, like one of the pleasure neurotransmitters, like, what's their dopamine? Like, does it bump up the longer they go without eating? Yeah, it just sounds so fascinating.

[18:47] Portia Pendleton: Like, everything is controlled. And you even see with Nina, like, that night that she kind of goes out on the town with Lily, that's not something that she literally has ever done. She does this routine, she practices. Her life is very controlled.

[19:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Life is all ballet in her mind. Right.

[19:03] Portia Pendleton: And I think that is a similar profile. Again, with someone who has really classic anorexia. It's like everything is controlled. There's no small you're not even going out to, like, a concert and having fun. You can't it's stressful to go.

[19:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? It's like your world is so small and just totally consumed by this. And then I think with such severe malnutrition, your brain just isn't functioning.

[19:28] Portia Pendleton: You're more anxious, you're more depressed. And I always kind of say to patients, like, you don't have depression first. You probably never would have self harmed. You never would have wanted to kill yourself. I think it's about even with death rates of anorexia by medical complications, heart complications, and suicide.

[19:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[19:51] Portia Pendleton: And I think it's like most of these people without anorexia would not have these other disorders that arise because your brain is kind of solo functioning, right?

[20:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: 100%. I feel like it's interesting, I think our different perspectives here, Portia, because you do this all the time. That's why I'm fascinated to talk to you about this movie. But I see it come up when people are like, I think I have Add, and they come to me and they're like, £90 and we have a totally different discussion, like you're talking about. And I'm like, no. And also, again, it's like, no, you can't focus because you have no energy source in your brain. And I would never start a stimulant on you because your heart is already compromised. You're already so thin. It's just really fascinating. And I did think this movie did such a good job, and Natalie Portman did such a good job just portraying that obsessive pattern that you see in this character and probably in a lot of ballerinas, maybe. And I think it's also the culture. Like, the ballerina body type is so unattainable for, like, 99.9% of the world, I would imagine. And the technique you need, the turnout you need, all of it is so hard. And so you have to practice so much to get there. It's just this unattainable standard and goal that just feeds into breeding, this perfectionism, this obsessiveness, the rituals, the diets, the everything to get to this unattainable point. And I think we see Nina have a psychotic break under that level of stress.

[21:32] Portia Pendleton: And I think, too, what I think is really hard is while you are performing oftentimes in a core, so in the corpse, which means with the group of people, you're not the prima ballet arena who's in the lead role, you're.

[21:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: All this other swans. Right.

[21:50] Portia Pendleton: And it's like that still at a level like the New York City Ballet, american Ballet Theater is like the highest of the high, but it's so uniquely like an individual sport still. Right. Like, you're not a soccer team where it's like you're passing back and forth and the team is celebrating. It's weirdly. Very individual. Even though you're competitive together, it's wildly competitive. And I think, again, feel like a failure. It just breeds this type of person who chooses to go into it, who.

[22:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sticks with it to this level. And again, you're so right. That's such a blow to their self esteem. You see Nina come home and just fall apart with her mom when she thinks she's not going to be picked. And she's tried so hard and she's still not good enough. It just feeds this almost I want to say narcissistic, but in the, like, I'm never going to be good enough way. But you stay in it and it's like you're flagellating yourself over and over. You're just in this culture where you never feel good enough. Oh my gosh. And then she does get the role, but after the director has assaulted her.

[22:59] Portia Pendleton: Right. So we see Tomas. He seems like he's the artistic director of the company. It seems like he has had a history of a relationship with Beth, who all the premium. Right. It seems like this is probably a kind of toxic, abusive, sexual assaulty environment.

[23:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Interesting to watch. It now post Harvey Weinstein in the MeToo movement compared to back in 2010.

[23:24] Portia Pendleton: And so he is kind of, I think, like trying to see to test her. That's my impression of first. Right. He's like asking her all these questions. He invites her back, is asking her.

[23:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: If she's a virgin, if she has a boyfriend.

[23:40] Portia Pendleton: And again, it's like.

[23:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think that was after she got the role. Yeah, but even before then, they were maybe dancing and he was trying to seduce her, remember?

[23:50] Portia Pendleton: And then he kisses her, she bites him, which she thinks is, now it's done, she lost the role, she's not going to get it. But for whatever reason, the bite really got. Exactly. And then she still thinks she doesn't get it. She thinks Lily no, she thinks another random girl got it because she says, oh, congratulations.

[24:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: That girl was maybe Michelle Trachtenberg, but maybe not. No. I don't know.

[24:16] Portia Pendleton: Not Harry. Looks like, yeah, that's a good call. And then she ends up getting it, goes to the bathroom, calls her mom. You see her at times. I don't think that time she went.

[24:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: In to throw up. No, but other times she's feeling a big emotion. You see her go to the bathroom. I thought that was a really smart depiction of bulimia.

[24:36] Portia Pendleton: So it would be anorexia. How would you type? Okay, because I'm assuming that she is not binging. So you have to binge in order to have bulimia, which is actually like a lot of people don't know that. A lot of people only associate the purge with bulimia.

[24:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's so important.

[24:53] Portia Pendleton: Many people with anorexia do purge, for example, they might have something that they believe to be a larger meal that would be, I would say, a subjective binge.

[25:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like someone might come in eggs rather than an egg white, right.

[25:07] Portia Pendleton: And then they're going to throw that up versus somebody who is really, truly engaging in a binge behavior, which is about consuming like 3500 calories in kind of around 90 minutes in secret. You almost are dissociative. You're eating a lot of the same food, so it's not like you are going up for your third helping at Thanksgiving and you're feeling really uncomfortable. You have overeaten.

[25:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's also not like you're sort of mindlessly grazing at dinner time while you're prepping dinner. So 3500 calories in 90 minutes, that's a helpful right?

[25:40] Portia Pendleton: So it's really rapid. You might be eating like loaves of bread, right? So you're not going up and taking multiple bound piece items on your plate, bringing them back. It would be like consuming an entire.

[25:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Party sized cake, right.

[25:55] Portia Pendleton: And then having a bag of donuts and then having a bag of plain untoasted bagels. It's like it's not we're going through the drive through, like seven times, multiple drive through. So I think a lot of people kind of say that they binge. I think a lot of and maybe you're serious. Some people I do think we throw that word around a lot.

[26:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[26:13] Portia Pendleton: But bulimia really does require a binge.

[26:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, I don't have as much experience with eating disorder, so this is really educational for me. I've always wondered, how do you quantify a binge?

[26:25] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So I think that's more of like a research criteria, which I think is helpful.

[26:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, it's super helpful for me to know. Yeah.

[26:33] Portia Pendleton: And then, so I'd ask someone, like, did you have an objective binge, which I just described, or did you have like a subjective binge? Same thing, just with binge eating disorder. So people are then not using a compensatory behavior. So they're not self induced vomiting. They're not taking a laxative, they're not then restricting.

[26:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: They're not over exercising.

[26:52] Portia Pendleton: Correct. They're not over exercising. But I think a lot of people who do show up with binge eating disorder often do restrict. So they'll maybe restrict during the day at work, intentionally or unintentionally, and then they go home, and then they might consume like a large quantity of food. There is a little bit of difference between night eating syndrome and binge eating disorder, but I think we think of restriction only in anorexia.

[27:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's it. I think, like you've told me before, that's super rare to have that form of anorexia where all you do is respect.

[27:26] Portia Pendleton: Most people have purged who have anorexia.

[27:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, purging being the self induced vomiting which we see depicted in this movie, but also laxative use over exercising. There's a lot of different ways of purging. So, like, your patients you have who meet criteria for the restrictive type but then run a lot. Would you say that's the purging?

[27:48] Portia Pendleton: Because oftentimes if they are unable to exercise to a certain degree, they might then restrict more of their food intake because they're not able to compensate for it or have a lot more anxiety.

[28:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is where, oh, my God, I just so worry about their hearts. And we've talked about this a lot, just not in the podcast.

[28:10] Portia Pendleton: People who have heart rates in the 30s, right?

[28:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: They're like running marathons and you're just like, how are you doing this? And again, these ballerinas, this is what they're living in, too. And it just makes me so nervous. Like, if I strapped an EKG on them, I would have a heart attack myself.

[28:25] Portia Pendleton: Because restriction does impact your muscles and.

[28:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Your heart is a muscle.

[28:31] Portia Pendleton: So I think as someone's just wanting to lose, as so many diets say, that will work, that we're just kind of taking the fat away. Restriction doesn't work that way. Your body doesn't know that. You just want to target this quote unquote problem area right on your left hip. It's like no. Restriction takes from everywhere. It takes from the gray matter from your brain. Yes, we need fats for our brain to work. Well, so seeing Nina's diet is really concerning. And again, she has a really high output of exercise. She should be fueling throughout the day, protein shakes.

[29:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: She should be eating like Michael Phillips. Yes, it's just wild.

[29:11] Portia Pendleton: But then when we think about ballet culture, right, so I noticed the costume design piece. So in most ballet shows, you tend to do them more than once. So The Nutcracker, Swan Lake, you have.

[29:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: To fit in that costume giselle.

[29:27] Portia Pendleton: So they keep these costumes, especially the core, and they might refresh the prima ballerina's costume, but they try to use them over and over again. And if you are bigger than the last dancer was who was in your costume that you are getting that is so upsetting and shameful, even if somebody is not directly shaming you, it's like, oh, we have to add this piece of fabric on to make a new one.

[29:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or you're not in you're not in the show. Right. 100%. I agree. I thought that was like yeah, there.

[29:59] Portia Pendleton: Is pride in a really sick way that when you are smaller and they need to take it in and there's shame and guilt when you are too big and it won't class.

[30:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: 100%. And also just the lifts, like the male ballerinas lifting the girls, like the lighter you are. I mean, the prima ballerina, I think, until like, Misty Copeland always had the same very small body type. Yeah, misty Copeland was white. And so Men white.

[30:26] Portia Pendleton: Copeland kind of came in. And if you don't know about her, she's this really amazing black ballerina. And she is, though, I will say, in a very small body. But she's muscular.

[30:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Muscular?

[30:38] Portia Pendleton: I would say like more toned. It seems like she has more muscle mass, but still in a very small body. Right. And I think that there is still way more room to grow. In many literal areas of diversity, in all ways in the ballet field. So that leads me to thinking of Lily, who is played by Mila Kunis.

[31:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Tell me what you think about Lily, then I'll tell you what I think.

[31:07] Portia Pendleton: So kind of on the surface level, I think Lily is supposed to be so obviously like the black San Francisco tattoo on her back, which is like these black wings. Natalie Portman's character, Nina, is very childlike, dough eyed. Where's pink where's pink ballerina? E. And I didn't know the hair down.

[31:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sorry to interrupt. I did find it interesting, the first scene we see of Natalie Portman walking into rehearsals, she had some wispies, which in the dance world means, like, your bun isn't totally hairsprayed. Like, there's some stray pieces. And I thought that was interesting because she would not have wispies like that version of her at that point, would not. I just thought that was again, maybe no one thought of it. Or maybe it was sort of purposeful as like, she's unraveling already. Right. I don't know.

[31:56] Portia Pendleton: Anyway no, I mean, that's a good point. Hair, I think, is so important. I think, again, it really cared characterized them as so different. But I think there is no way that they would ever allow it's just not ballet etiquette to not have your hair in a box. I know.

[32:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: When she's dancing around with her hair.

[32:14] Portia Pendleton: Down, like flinging around, you can't spot if you have your hair down, it's going to get in your partner's face.

[32:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Absolutely. There's no way. But she's like San Francisco. That's what I'm trying to do. Right.

[32:21] Portia Pendleton: She's like, cool, she's sexy, she eats a cheeseburger. Right. And it's just, again, to me, that's so unbelievable. But it's all, like, triggering Nina because Lily is the exact opposite of her.

[32:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: And what she needs to be to play the role queen. Right. I don't think Lily was real. I think she was a hallucination the whole time I.

[32:49] Portia Pendleton: Felt that way.

[32:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: I didn't think that back in 2010. No, I do.

[32:54] Portia Pendleton: I was, like, kind of mind F word in 2010 after seeing it and had a lot of questions about that. I think you are 100% right. I don't think Lily exists at all. I think in so many ways, Lily is this version of Nina that she needs or wants or that she's trying to access. There's so many times when she's not really there. I think it's like when Nina is not herself, she is Lily. Like, Lily goes out to the bar. I don't think she was ever there. Right.

[33:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: No.

[33:27] Portia Pendleton: When they have sex like that, she was masturbating. I think when she sees Lily having sex with Tomas and then he turns into this swan creature again, I don't think any of it's real.

[33:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think you're right. That didn't hit me until I was watching this at the end. I remember back when it came out, the sex scene between them was like, that was like all that big draw, see the movie. But now watching it, I'm like, I think the closer she gets to Lily that's representing the further she's going into psychosis. We see, like, at the very early, early on in the movie, when Nina is walking onto the subway, she thinks someone laughs at her. She sees a weird face. We see some of that early on.

[34:20] Portia Pendleton: These little ghosts see Lily.

[34:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Or, like, someone's face that I couldn't tell who it was, if it was Lily or that other girl she was feeling competitive with, that Michelle Trachtenberg looking girl.

[34:31] Portia Pendleton: And then it always morphs back into Nina, though.

[34:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. And so I thought this movie so artistically and beautifully depicted the descent into Psychosis with some very classic things. Like, again, those little things that can happen at first, where you have, like, a small break from reality. Was it real or was it just in my head? Okay. I think I hear people laughing at me. Are they really or are they not? And then it just growing and growing and growing and growing. Like, the mom's weird paintings, like, laughing at her. I started to even wonder about the scratches on her. Were those real? I think they were. I think she was doing that out of stress, but not realizing she was doing it. Oh, it's so interesting.

[35:18] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. I mean, such an artistic way to I think exactly what you just said, to kind of show Psychosis and, like, the descent into it. I am even kind of remembering, which I had talked about before with the mom. Yes, I believe that they do authentically have a strange relationship and national, however, right then, I think it kind of throws me to having all these questions about everything. Is the mom really that bad? I don't know. Is all of this just, like, in paranoia now?

[35:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Some paranoia, yeah. And you even see when Nina shows up late to a rehearsal, I think after their big night out, maybe, or her, who knows? Big night out. And I wondered even about the ecstasy. I don't think she was actually on drugs. I think that was the psychosis. Like, she was starting to feel disconnected from herself. And she shows up, she thinks she sees Lily filling in for her, and she runs after Tomas, like, really tearful, like, really paranoid. She's after me. She's trying to take my role, like, all of that. She's just unraveling. And at some point, her mom tries to stop her from performing. Right. So at some point, the mom, I think, is trying to help.

[36:32] Portia Pendleton: I know that's where I was confused, fuzzy. Right.

[36:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because then mom's in the audience. Right. And the mom but even, like, as she's performing as the swans, like that last half hour of the movie, however long it is, you just see the full descent, like, in such a beautifully.

[36:51] Portia Pendleton: She becomes the black swan. I mean, it comes out of her skin. She performs it so amazingly well. Tomas is, like, giving her such good feedback after initially, right? Like, the first scene, she has that fall, the white swan, and I think even that more I think that's real. I think that even catapults her further.

[37:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because the stress, the stress that she's under, it seems like she has this complicated relationship with her mom, this perfect storm of an obsessive neurotic personality with an eating disorder. And then we add on this level of stress. She has a psychotic break. I don't think she's depicting schizophrenia, which perhaps she goes on to develop. But schizophrenia would involve other things, too, like her thought process, her affect, which is we think of mood as, like, your own subjective experience about your emotions and affect being what other people observe on you. There's negative symptoms associated with schizophrenia. She's not displaying any of that. She's really displaying a first break, which at that age, you don't really know. Is this a one time thing? Is it stress induced? Is it signs of an underlying bipolar disorder or signs of a schizophrenia? We don't know. But oh, my God, it's so masterfully depicted.

[38:02] Portia Pendleton: So fun fact, I watched it on Amazon Prime. I rented it, and they give you kind of a running some facts on the side, like, if you move the mouse and who's on screen right now?

[38:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: So they always say the characters.

[38:13] Portia Pendleton: So I really enjoy that sometimes. And they had shared that Natalie Portman recommended Mila Kunis for the role. She really wanted her to do it. She felt like she would be a perfect kind of counter to her. And then Mila Kunis, I guess, didn't even audition. Like, they just kind of talked to her over Skype or something. And then they gave her the role. They thought she was the perfect fit.

[38:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I know Natalie Portman said that she did a lot of ballet training. I think she was a ballerina as a kid. Not professionally, but then there was a body double, of course, because the ballet was amazing. Those left sided fuets were just like, oh, my God. But, oh, my gosh. I know. I feel like we should break down just a little bit before we wrap up the final show. Yeah.

[39:02] Portia Pendleton: Prior to that, though, I was curious on your thoughts about why is Nina visiting Beth in the hospital? Right. So Beth, like, jumps in front of.

[39:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: A car, attempts suicide, and then she's in the hospital.

[39:13] Portia Pendleton: Like, her body is damaged, which I think is just like the ultimate I don't even know, trauma and trauma. Right. You had the suicide attempt, and now your body is really more even incapable of being who you identify as, which is a dancer, which now that you're not. That that's why she, I'm assuming, you know, wanted to kind of end her.

[39:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Life, and she was feeling rejected by Tomas and yep. It's terrible.

[39:38] Portia Pendleton: So Nina brings her or gives her back the little items that she stole.

[39:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Those weird little things she stole. I thought that was interesting, and one.

[39:47] Portia Pendleton: Of them being, like, it looked a letter opener, but I'm assuming it was some kind of knife, maybe even for, like, point shoe stuff, like it was some part of a kick up or something. And then she stops herself.

[39:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think that was all a hallucination.

[40:00] Portia Pendleton: I hope, building all of this energy. I feel like just the watcher, like I'm all over the place.

[40:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: That was also super graphic. I do think she visited her initially when she brought her flowers and everything. I was really uncomfortable when she was picking up the blanket to look at her injuries. I felt like that was really a violation. And I think Nina so wanted to be Beth.

[40:28] Portia Pendleton: Yes.

[40:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: And so maybe it was like seeing her potential future that was, like, haunting her. Maybe she felt guilty that now she's the Swan Queen, and then Beth attempts suicide. Maybe she felt guilty, and then she did. Even before Beth was ousted, there was that scene early in the movie where she leaves her dressing room angry, and Nina goes in and takes all those trinkets, kind of like a Kleptomaniac. I don't know. I was like, Are you trying to become her in a real creepy way?

[41:00] Portia Pendleton: I even wonder. And maybe it doesn't add up in the movie, but did Nina push Beth in front of the car? I mean, it just seems like anything could be part of her psychotic break or not. And I think that's the fun of the movie is trying to kind of figure that out. But so she wakes up late. Mom hides the doorknob. She's in her room. She looks at the clock. It's way too late. So she gets ready. She like fights, mom.

[41:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: And mom said, like, I've already called and told them you're not feeling well. Which I think, again, for Nina, is like, what the f? I've lived my whole life trying to be this person.

[41:36] Portia Pendleton: You want me to be nothing.

[41:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Now I'm here, and now you call me out. I still can't be good enough for you, mom. Right. So anyway, so she rushes in, she gets ready. I was really interested in the fact that she did all of her own makeup. Is that true? Yeah.

[41:54] Portia Pendleton: So I thought about this while I was watching it. So in, I guess, traditional ballet production, too, you are not doing you always try to do, like, a dramatic face, dramatic eye, comp dancing, all of that stuff. But again, it was a little triggered by the makeup because I've done that makeup before. You try to make the top of your face really white, so it's, like, reflecting. You draw, like, really wide black eyeliner. So, like, under your eye all the way out. You wing it white in between. And that makeup is so sticky and uncomfortable.

[42:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she had to redo her makeup multiple times throughout the show. And the makeup and the costumes were so amazing when her eyes turn red as the black swan, but so she starts off as the white swan. She has the fall, which is devastating. And then her and Lily have the physical altercation and she ends up in.

[42:50] Portia Pendleton: The dressing room stabbing her with the glass.

[42:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Also, Lily was trying to take the role, remember? Lily was like Toma had said she was going to do it because Nina was late. Again, I don't think Lily is actually real, but that all depicts it so well. And then she stabs her, drags her into the bathroom and just leaves her there. And I thought she really killed her.

[43:14] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. There's blood coming out from under the door. She puts the towel on it. She goes and then performs as gets positive feedback, which I think was very interesting because the whole movie, it's like all she's getting is negative feedback. She's not sexy enough from the male partner and from Tomas. Everyone's jealous of her. But then at the performance, besides the fall, you hear all of this positive feedback from her peers, people in the core, Tomas. It's really nice that some of people are asking her if she's okay after she fell. So I'm wondering, too, that doesn't fit her previous view, that's like everyone's out to get her. Everyone's trying to take this role. It's like, I wonder again, was that all in her head?

[43:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's some competition, of course, or was she unraveling? And people are like, oh, my God, are you okay? I think she's starting to appear psychotic. The way she carried herself was different. She walks up and kisses Tomas after the performance. She dances differently. The way they have her sort of sprout the wings as she's turning, it's like now she's psychotic. Right? It was just so beautifully depicted. But she was hearing them laughing as they were switching. She was in the wings and the core was coming off stage and their faces kind of looked off. She was upstage when she should have been downstage. She was confused. I thought they were asking her that. Not out of I mean, out of caring, but because she was, like, appearing more and more psychotic. And then she gets back to her dressing room. There's no blood coming.

[44:52] Portia Pendleton: There's no body.

[44:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's no body.

[44:54] Portia Pendleton: There is a glass, though.

[44:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is the glass. And she looks and she stabbed herself. And that's when at least watching it again, this time I was like, Billy was never real. It's like a depiction of her wrestling with that part of herself. And then she carries on, puts on the white swan makeup again, goes and does a beautiful performance at the end, and then quite literally jumps to her death.

[45:18] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[45:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: And at the very end, as she's dying, I think she says it was perfect, or I was perfect or something, and I was like, oh, my God.

[45:27] Portia Pendleton: Just floored.

[45:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just floored. Like, the lengths you go to achieve perfection.

[45:32] Portia Pendleton: I mean, it does drive you mad. I feel like at both times that I've watched, I'm always left a little speechless besides feeling unwell and triggered. But yeah, I had a lot of questions, which it seems like the glass was real on the floor, but I don't know if you get stopped, I just don't see you performing.

[45:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: But again right, but also, she is the person who can sustain anorexia for that period of time. Right. I don't even think she feels it. And they even kind of show that, but where her wound doesn't grow until she's finally done dancing. God, what a movie.

[46:13] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think it touches on so much stuff and so much toxic energy that is in the ballet world. I think it talks about also, like a psychotic break. Mom and daughter relationships.

[46:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's predatory.

[46:30] Portia Pendleton: Predatory relationships.

[46:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Touches on so much and it's so artistically beautiful. Yeah. I don't know if I'd say it was a pleasure to watch again, because it's really disturbing, but yeah, amazing movie.

[46:48] Portia Pendleton: For me, I think I didn't quite enjoy dance while I was kind of competitive at that level, like, in high school. And I think I really started to enjoy dance again when I stepped away.

[47:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: From the ballet world.

[47:06] Portia Pendleton: I mean, I think that's not a universal maybe experience, but I think if something doesn't become fun anymore and it's not fulfilling and it's just, like all work and pain, I think it's, like, time to move on to something else. And I think it's really hard for dancers as like, that's your identity for so many people. We don't become professionals. I know. It's just really hard to do that.

[47:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Did you ever have guest teachers be like, raise your hand if you hope to be a professional dancer someday? I feel like they were always asking us that, and I always raised my hand. I think it was just like I.

[47:43] Portia Pendleton: Feel like we were some of my instructors at some places. That was the assumption. I mean, this is kind of like a horrifying thing to share, but when we started Point, I think I was probably like eleven.

[47:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my gosh. Your little feet are still developing.

[48:00] Portia Pendleton: We were not allowed to use padding.

[48:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: No.

[48:04] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[48:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: So if you're not familiar with point so, like, in the point shoes, actually, same with me. I just started later. But you can put, like, wool or buy these gelburns. There's all sorts of but all these pads in the very tip of your shoes. So your toes have some padding.

[48:21] Portia Pendleton: But you're right.

[48:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Same with me. Now that I'm thinking about it, you weren't allowed to use padding because that's.

[48:27] Portia Pendleton: Not what the professional a real feel for the shoe and build up your toe. Your calluses.

[48:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: I remember I used to cut off dead skin like in between rehearsals.

[48:36] Portia Pendleton: You weren't allowed to get a pedicure because you didn't want soft skin, right?

[48:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. If I would get one, I would say, don't remove the calluses.

[48:43] Portia Pendleton: So I sneakily brought in cotton balls and put them in my shoe. It was so painful.

[48:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: So painful. It's the worst.

[48:51] Portia Pendleton: Oh, my gosh. I think dancing now as an adult and doing other forms of dance, like tap, I feel like the joy has returned. And it's fun and it's nice, but I think I do follow. Her name is Isabel Boylston. I think she's a prima ballerina for the American Ballet Theater. I like her content. I mean, I will say, like, she is a small bodied ballerina, pretty traditional speaking. She's an amazing dancer. And I'd like to think and hope that the ballet world is making some efforts to be more inclusive and to be safer for everybody. I'm not in it anymore. I can't speak to that. And I know I feel like we said a lot of negative, bad things about it today, which I think that's just the reality. But I also am hopeful that there are wonderful companies with wonderful instructors and better PT. But I think it's cutthroat. I think it is.

[49:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: And at least the way it's depicted in this movie, very cutthroat. So I'm just thinking, like, if you and I experience some of that on such a local dance school level, imagine what it is at the New York City Ballet. Right? Wow. So is there anything else we wanted to touch on?

[50:06] Portia Pendleton: No. I'm glad that it's behind us. I feel like it deserves to be.

[50:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Called a film, not a movie. All right, well, this was fun. I'm also glad it's behind us. Thank you all for tuning in. If you could please rate, review, and subscribe, that would be great, and we will see you next time with succession.

[50:25] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[50:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: All right. Bye, guys.

[50:27] Portia Pendleton: Bye.

[50:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.

[51:23] Portia Pendleton: Bye. Our channel, Sam.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we chat about the adorable 2015 Disney/Pixar animated film "Inside Out." We love all of these characters and were so impressed at how well this movie depicted the development of psychological ambivalence in a pre-teen. In this episode, we comment on the humorous portrayal of various cognitive processes including memory, dejavu, and dreaming. We also touch on neuroplasticity and resiliency as it relates to trauma experienced in childhood. That leads us to reflect on what it's been like to work with patients of all ages through the COVID-19 pandemic, and our plea to Disney to release a sequel about Riley living through the pandemic. We hope you enjoy!

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Portia Pendleton: Hi.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm here, as always, with my co host, Dr. Katrina A. Fury, a psychiatrist. And I am Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker practicing as a therapist. Yes, we're really excited to dive into today's episode. We both watched me for the first time, you for the first time at the movie Inside Out. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: Disney Pixar movie. Yeah. I've seen this movie a bazillion times, but I love it every single time. And I remember I first saw it when it came out a couple of years back. I was just going into my second year of psych residency at Yale, and me and a couple of my co residents went to the movie theater together and watched this all together. And it was so great. And I thought it was such a great depiction of emotion and development, and we'll totally get into all of it, but I just really love this movie.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you remember talking about it or what you guys thought right after? Did anything stick with you? Anything that anybody said or like?

Portia Pendleton: I think so much of it. I think we loved the depiction of the different types of memory. And when they're on the train trying to get back to Riley's what do they call it? The control center or something. Just, like, going through the different lands of the brain. And it was so well done. One thing I remember we all talked about was, like, I wonder how they came up with the five main emotions because they were anger, disgust, fear, sadness and joy. And I always thought disgust. That was the one where I was like, I wonder how they came up with that. I remember we sort of spent some time talking about that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So just like a little premise. If you haven't seen it, I do recommend it's. Like, short it's silly. I feel like you can pause it and put it back on. But it's about a child who yeah, most of the story takes place when she's in that age range, but you first kind of see her as a baby and the movie kind of goes through her experience with really, I'd say, like, innate basic emotions to developing more complex emotions. Right.

Portia Pendleton: All in the context of a big move, a major life transition when Riley and her family moved from Minnesota to San Francisco. And it was just, like, so well done and just so amazing. I thought even picking her age was spot on. I feel like we go from seeing her have these five primitive, very separate emotions to being able to start integrating different feelings and hold on to them at the same time. And that's, like, exactly around the time, I think, psychologically that would be able to happen. And just throwing in the move and how that sort of disrupts her feelings and showing the tension between her own inner feelings and what she thinks her parents want her to feel and then rebelling a little bit at the end.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It was just so great.

Portia Pendleton: I really loved it. It was such a unique concept, an interesting premise and way to depict psychological development in childhood as you move into adolescence.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And what really does I think it just gives kids and adults, like, a really good picture of what happens in your brain. I like to think of it, and I feel like it would be nice to even explain maybe to some people, maybe, I guess a little bit younger, but I think adults, too, that this is what happens. It's more like technical and it's not as pretty. Our brains are like, gray, but the control center with the emotions kind of working together or sometimes in conflict.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And then how our memories are stored and them directing each way. That is what happened.

Portia Pendleton: Right. And I think it does give language and imagery to little kids about this stuff. And I've heard children say depict their.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Anger, their turning red, just like that guy.

Portia Pendleton: And I just think it's so great. I just loved it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So, Inside Out also has a pretty all star cast. And I think some of the voices I recognized but couldn't place. And now that we kind of took a deep dive into that, I'm like.

Portia Pendleton: Oh, my gosh, I love them. We have Amy Poehler, who plays kind.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Of the main lead, which is Joy, which is perfect.

Portia Pendleton: Like, what a perfect casting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Her voice, her cadence, her tone. I feel like it's very joyful. Very joyful.

Portia Pendleton: She was great.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And then we have Mindy Kaling, who did the Disgust characters. Her I didn't place at all. If I listened back, I probably would. And she did a great job, too, right? It was perfect.

Portia Pendleton: And then we have bill hader as fear. That one I didn't place till I looked it up and I was like, so great. They're just so perfect. And Louis Black is Anger, who is, like, one of my favorites. Again, I really love the depiction of Anger, and I'm so curious about how different creative people put Anger into imagery and words and everything. Whoops.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You liked angry man. Shrink too.

Portia Pendleton: That's interesting. Yeah, I like that. And then who else did we have for Sadness? We had the woman from The Office that you were really excited about.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay, if you have seen The Office, you know how her voice is. And so, please, if you have not seen Inside Out, like, just picture her character and her tone and how she talks just as this little short blue blob of sadness.

Portia Pendleton: I know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Walking around and, oh, I didn't mean to do that. She's perfect for the role.

Portia Pendleton: And also, the way they drew these five main emotions were also perfect. We have joy. He's, like, taller and wearing this bright blue dress, and I think she's got, like, blue hair and she's, like, bopping around all zoom. Zoo, zoo, zooming. Everywhere we have sadness. The little blue, your blob with glasses and a turtleneck. And then we have discussed who's green and kind of like, sassy and wearing jewelry, and her hair is a little flippy. And then anger is like a big red square. And then fear is just this little string bean. String bean of something that could just.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Melt into the floor, right?

Portia Pendleton: And I was just like, It's so great.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I love it.

Portia Pendleton: And then the human characters were also really interesting and pivotal. So we have Diane Lane, who voiced Riley's mom. We had Kyle McLaughlin, who voiced Riley's dad. And then Riley herself was played by an actress named Caitlin Diaz. And they've all been in a lot of different movies and TV shows themselves. So it really was an all star cast.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: Oh, and how could I forget Bing Bong? What did you think about Bing Bong?

Dr. Katrina Furey: So Bing Bong was the imaginary friend, right? So I thought his character was so sweet. The only time I got a little teary eyed was in the movie where I think Bing Bong kind of realizes that he's supposed to kind of fade into your childhood experience and not kind of follow you to adolescence. So he helps Joy get back to the main switchboard so she can help Riley help Riley out.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I know. So beautiful. So Bing Bong was played by Richard Kind, who is an actor that I wouldn't know that name off the top of my head, but I know him. Like, when I look at him and he voices all these different funny characters, like on Curb Your Enthusiasm, Mad About You, he's just really a funny comedian. Yeah. So where do we start?

Dr. Katrina Furey: So I liked the first scene a lot because I feel like it's really kind of accurate with what babies see. So it's like the first emotion that kind of shows up as Joy, right. And it's like you're kind of awe at the world. You don't see very well, but you can see your parents faces. Right. They're really close to you and they're really happy. They're smiling. And then I think that was just like a really beautiful moment. And then very quickly yeah. I think sadness comes in.

Portia Pendleton: I thought it was anger, like, when she starts crying, maybe it was sad and I don't know which one of those.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And it was just like, a lot. Someone took over, right? Changing my diaper. I'm hungry. That's how I get my need met. I don't know how to speak.

Portia Pendleton: It was so funny and how they showed I'm taking over so quickly, like, at the switchboard, I just loved. And I love the parents reactions, too.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So I just really liked that scene in general. I thought it was really accurate again, and kind of a good introduction to all the characters and how the emotions kind of show up at different stages of early early development.

Portia Pendleton: Right? Early super early development.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Total fear, right? Like, fear is really appropriate because it does keep us safe. It helps kids. I think she was like hopping over a cord, which again, is like, safe.

Portia Pendleton: But to a child that age.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Was like, warning her. And then Disgust came in and was like I think it was funny about the broccoli. What is this? It's green. I can't take this. She has a temper tantrum.

Portia Pendleton: Then also like, yeah. And then how that carries over to when they're in San Francisco, they thought like, oh, let's go get some pizza. This will be safe. Riley brings that up. She can tell her parents are stressed because the moving van doesn't show up and there's fighting, and she's like, let's.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Go get some pizza.

Portia Pendleton: Then they show up and it's like, San Francisco probably like vegan broccoli pizza. And I remember Anger was like, they.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Can'T even get pizza right here. Yeah, it was so sweet. So I think just knowing about child brain development, I think we could go off on a really long tangent here that I will try to shorten. But I really wanted to kind of just talk about child brain elasticity and why children can be so resilient. Their brain is still forming. They're still making all these connections in their synapses.

Portia Pendleton: They're all fire science words.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So I think that was really cool. And then when we see later on in the movie, we see the long term memories, like shapes, and it looks like yes, it looks like a brain.

Portia Pendleton: The sulci and the Gyrie of the brain. Exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

Portia Pendleton: And then when they had all the memories, there as these beautiful little glows that all had at the beginning, like one color. It was like one main color. It was like yellow for Joy, blue for Sadness, green for Disgust, red for Anger, and then purple for fear, I think. And then as we progress into adolescence, they start being multiple colors. And that's at first when Joy was like, sadness, don't touch this. You're going to ruin the core memory. And sadness is like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. And that tension between Joy and Sadness the whole time. Chefs kiss moi. Wow. And then the fact that at the end, sadness was the hero of the day. Being able to sit with your authentic feelings in this big move and missing your friends and approaching adolescents, it was so beautiful.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There was a powerful moment with Sadness comforting. Was it Bing Bong?

Portia Pendleton: I think so.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And Bing Bong was really upset, crying. And then Sadness sat down and offered her ear. And it was just like, yeah, that's really sad. And Joy, up until this point, was really trying to avoid right. Like, any uncomfortable emotions, specifically Sadness feeling. It like, as unhealthy.

Portia Pendleton: It's going to hurt Riley.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And so Joy at that moment was like, whoa, how did you do that? Because Bing bong is like, be able to regulate himself after sadness helps him. And sadness was just like, yeah, I just sat with him and I was sad.

Portia Pendleton: And again, that's what we all need to learn, right, is that it's okay to feel sad or any of these other authentic feelings and a big mix of all the emotions and to sit with it and validate. Even when she got on Bing Bong's level, it's like, such a good depiction. And again, Joy, I feel like if Riley developed with Joy still steering the ship the whole time, you could totally see her turn into a toxic, positivity type of person. Can't acknowledge any sadness. Like, has to turn away from it all the time. It's just so beautiful. I really loved it. And I loved the depiction of the different types of memory we have, like, long term memory, short term memory facts. I loved the bubblegum jingle, how it just pops into your head even if you don't want it. Do you have a jingle in my head?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Do you have a commercial or like, a song?

Portia Pendleton: Because I totally have, like, five. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What are yours? So the JG. Wentworth commercial call JG. Wentworth. Don't you ever forget that.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And then the one from a long time ago that was like, education connection, connected for free education. Oh, yeah. Yes.

Portia Pendleton: About, like, connecting you to colleges and stuff.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's a song that I'm sure I knew the entire thing at one point, but I'm such a music hook person where I think that's too, why they Make US, which this made me think of it when they were in Long Term Memory, and the cleanup crew comes in and they're throwing away some of the presidents. Let's keep Lincoln. Let's keep George Washington. I was like, that's so relatable. But I learned a song when I was little to remember the presidents, so I remember probably like, the first ten. It's like washington Adams, jefferson madison Monroe, jackson moon veron. And then I don't remember.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But songs are helpful in memory, for sure.

Portia Pendleton: That's so funny. And I love that depiction of how certain songs and things like that get stuck in your memory and how they were thinking about getting rid of that, but they didn't, and it would come.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Up at other points. A little cleanup crew thinks it's funny. They're like, we'll send up this jingle to Main Central office, and they all of a sudden get that memory up to it. It was just do you see, like.

Portia Pendleton: The parents also hearing it in their own version of The Emotions? I love the parents having their own versions. Like when they were at the table, like, in their first night in their apartment, or not the first night, but trying to talk to Riley. And she's, like, really cranky after that day of school and how the hockey trials didn't go well. And mom is trying to signal a dad like, I need some help here. She's a real cranky. And you see the mom's emotions being like, oh, send the signal to dad. Oh, he's not getting it. Why do we give up that? I don't know. Brazilian music?

Dr. Katrina Furey: And then they show him. So they project this past love to Mom's vision in front of dad so she can tolerate dad, it feels like. And I thought it was funny, or I noticed that all the emotions in mom and Dad's brain all had like, the same hairstyle, like the adult versions. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: And then when dad finally gets the hint and he's like, so, Riley, how was your day? And all the mom feelings are like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, God, we just asked that. Jerry responded poorly.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah. No, I thought that's so funny. I just loved it. And then when Dad's anger and Riley's anger are both, like, coming together, I loved it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: Some other things I loved about the depiction of memory was how they have to go down again, the windy hallways to try to sort of crawl their way out. And then how Joy, like, when she was trying at the beginning to get Sadness to go away so she could save the day, she was like, here's, Sadness, read this. It's like this huge binder about memory storage or something, and it just conveys how complicated it is. And it is super complicated. And it's like Joy would not read it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton: And then later on, it turns out, was really helpful that Sadness did read it and knew kind of like, what.

Dr. Katrina Furey: To do or where to go.

Portia Pendleton: I really liked that, too.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, no, I think it was wonderful. Something that I thought of that wasn't really like in the movie, but made me just kind of reflect on is that I got the sense that it made me think about trauma and how, to a degree, all children and babies start out more on the same page and only really different by genetics. Right. So it's like you have your own genetic makeup, et cetera, and then it's like, we're putting different environments.

Portia Pendleton: Unless the pregnancy was tough or the delivery is tough, could already start the trauma.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's true.

Portia Pendleton: Cortisol firing and things like that. Yeah, but I hear what you're saying. I think I know where you're going here.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, it's like you have the opportunity, literally, maybe at birth, a little bit different. Totally. Good point. And then it's like all these things.

Portia Pendleton: Can happen to you at different stages and ages.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So whether it's really positive experiences, really scary experiences, but it's like all of those things we think of, like, right, nature versus nurture impact us. So I think that if Riley in the movie hadn't been able to speak with parents or parents hadn't been as supportive or nurturing or able to provide that level of connection, it's really a beautiful moon. They're all hugging at the end. And Riley is then able to share really difficult things, but then she feels better.

Portia Pendleton: I know when she was able to say, like, I know you want me to be happy, but I'm so sad.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's huge for so huge young child to be able to verbalize and then to have a really positive response, right? So I think it's like this movie did a good job at showing, ideally, and what does happen a lot, but when it doesn't happen, that's when our kind of predisposition validated might kind of be triggered. Specifically eating disorder treatment. I'm thinking of, like, we say often that genetics loads the gun and your environment can pull the trigger. So it's like if she had a predisposition, maybe for depression or anxiety, it's like something like this could really bring that to the surface versus just like a situational, right? Like she's sad, like this difficult change. So that's what I was kind of like carrying through the movie. And then it just made me think of even more so, like the Aces study. So all environmental stressors and traumas that.

Portia Pendleton: We can go through that make us.

Dr. Katrina Furey: More likely to experience mental health disorders, medical issues, 100%.

Portia Pendleton: And on that note, as a little teaser for a future episode, I think we should watch this movie called The Florida Project. Did you ever see that?

Dr. Katrina Furey: No.

Portia Pendleton: And talk about the Asus study because it's a very different movie from Inside Out where they show a lot of trauma that a young child is exposed to. And anyway, stay tuned if you want something a little less light hearted down the road. Another thing I love and 100% Portia, I love that point. I also love that they didn't like the parents weren't perfect at this. That they really did show sort of that tension within Riley between feeling like she needs to kind of be, quote, unquote, strong and happy for the family and for her dad. And her mom kind of says that directly at one point. And then it's sort of like, thank you so much for making this easier. And how that puts so much pressure on a kid. Again, not she wasn't intending to.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton: It was meant to be, I think, like an acknowledgment of how, quote, unquote, well she'd been doing and appreciation. But it just shows like that tension between Riley's authentic feelings and the feelings she feels like her parents want her to have. And again, so beautiful that the parents didn't just do it perfectly right from.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The start, but that they were able to get there.

Portia Pendleton: And again, that they handled her rebellion with stealing the money and getting on the bus in a nurturing way. They didn't immediately chastise her or punish her or yell at her or put their own big feelings, which understandably would get triggered in a situation like that ahead of hers. They were like so glad she was safe, right? Wanted to know what was going on. And then hopefully did have some kind of consequence that felt appropriate. It shouldn't be without consequence, but at least my opinion. But they were really able to meet her where she was out there, which is beautiful. Yeah. What did you think about at the beginning when Joy and Sadness were going back and forth over their recollections of the same event in the past?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

Portia Pendleton: When Sadness was feeling so sad. And so all of the globes, or whatever you want to call them, started, like, having a blue hue. And Joy is like, think of something happy. Think about this or that or something. And sadness is like, oh, I do love the rain. And Joy is like, oh, yeah, jump in the puddles, splash around.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's so much fun.

Portia Pendleton: She's like, I really like just standing there when the water fills my boots.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And runs down my back and I get really cold.

Portia Pendleton: Really cold.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And then she was like, oh, yeah, I remember that movie when the dog died, and Joy was like, don't think of it. But that's sadness.

Portia Pendleton: I know. And then at the end, that Core Memory, when she starts to kind of lose the different islands, family Island, Friendship Island, hockey island, when they sort of remember that Core Memory together, that it wasn't just like someone scored the winning goal or didn't.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton: It turns out that Riley was really sad, but then her team sort of came around her and helped her feel better. And that's such a beautiful, simplistic, common type of childhood experience to kind of learn how to integrate your emotions and hold on to two conflicting feelings simultaneously.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Because then she was using Anger to play hockey, which was like a really appropriate way to get out some aggression or some of that energy. And so it's like anger was allowed. Right. But it wasn't just Joy all the time. Right.

Portia Pendleton: And I loved that they showed a girl playing hockey like a really aggressive sport.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I just loved I loved it.

Portia Pendleton: You probably didn't. But also on Disney Plus, when you watch a movie, then they'll recommend other things.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Sure.

Portia Pendleton: So, of course I have watched all of them because I have kids and they have, like, a little short where it's like, Riley going on a date, and that's really adorable.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's cute.

Portia Pendleton: Because I loved at the end, or toward the end when they're trying to get back and they use her crush, I would die for Riley. They multiply and use them as a ladder. And then near the end, when she bumps into a boy and you see.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The boys, I thought it was hilarious and so sweet. It's like all the alarms are going.

Portia Pendleton: Girls, guys.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. In his brain. And it's like they don't know what to do. He's like, frozen.

Portia Pendleton: And then Riley's like, okay, bye. At the very end. I think the last line just cracks me up when they're like, Joy's like, everything's great now. What could go wrong. We're making friends, we're twelve. Like, what could go wrong? And you're just thinking like, puberty is.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Coming and they have a puberty button on the screen and they're like, what's that? It hasn't gone off yet.

Portia Pendleton: Just wait, just wait. That was so perfect. I would love to see a sequel about puberty. Like, oh my God, I would love to see that. That would be good.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But you made a good point about the parenting not being perfect, because I think what happened to Riley initially, before there was kind of that repair is like a really common experience, I think, in childhood, many people and it's not like a trauma or this big event or these little misinterpretations where it's like if you had gone back and asked a parent, is this what you meant? They would be like, no, my gosh, of course not. I'm so sorry that that's what you thought, but us wanting you to be strong was just like our hope. We didn't want to put that on you. I imagine them saying, but that happens a lot. People have a hard time talking about their parents, especially guilty.

Portia Pendleton: Love them. I hear a lot. Like I felt bad about what I said last time and it's usually when they're expressing anger, fear, shame, sadness, things like that. I think that's what I was wondering about the five main emotions. Why did they pick disgust over something like shame? The disgust emotion was the one where I was like, I don't know if that would have been the fifth one I would have picked. What about you?

Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like they tried to frame it as it was also keeping Riley safe, they said, from being poisoned, like hob broccoli. But I feel like to me it could have been fear's job.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah, that's what I mean. Fear were kind of but I think.

Dr. Katrina Furey: They should have included shame. That would have been nice. But I feel like shame is so complex for kids. I don't think it is for adults. I still can feel shame as a kid, but I feel like maybe you.

Portia Pendleton: Don'T have the words at that age yet. And as I was saying that, I was thinking like, well, maybe they were thinking about what are primitive emotions?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Disgust is primitive, right? Showed anything. Something like raw. Even animals, animals know.

Portia Pendleton: Maybe these are like the main primitive feelings. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I'll give them a pass for that. Some other things I loved, I loved the night shift when they would change over to the night and she's dreaming. And I loved that her dreams as like a twelve, 1112 year old girl are like about unicorn princesses and her teacher and being at school and all these things, just how they depict it, dreaming, and how sometimes it incorporates what you went through that day and all the feelings that come up and then like dancing uniforms.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I just thought it was like so and when she was a little girl in early childhood, I liked how they showed when she was jumping over furniture, actually lava. And it was like your imagination is so big, powerful and real when you're a child. So it's not that you are seeing lava on the floor, but your imagination is so powerful that you really can feel it.

Portia Pendleton: And that even goes into with Bing Bong and how excited Joy was to see Bing have so much fun and just showing all the ways that Riley would play with Her Majesty friend again, as an only child, I thought that was an interesting choice as well. And then how while Bing Bong had to have the realization that he had to stay behind for Riley to grow, it was almost like her core emotions had to be able to tap into her inner child in order to grow.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It was just so beautiful.

Portia Pendleton: I loved it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought it was just like an excellent I think you should watch this in grad school or any psychology psychiatry.

Portia Pendleton: In middle school and they teach you about sex and it's always awkward and weird. Like you could also watch this as.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Part of that curriculum of development.

Portia Pendleton: Maybe we introduced this in fourth grade. It's real easy for kids to understand. I think kids really resonate with it. But again, because you're seeing these really complex emotions depicted in a movie with imagery and jokes and all this stuff and kids at Riley's age mostly wouldn't really have the words to say to her parents. Like, actually, I feel this way and when you say I'm strong, it makes me feel confused. Or this way. Like, again, they don't have the words. So it's just so I just loved it. They were on the train and the whole thing like, well, what are these? This is facts, this is fiction. Oh, who cares? We just mix it up. We don't have to keep it organized. Just like funny little jokes like that. We're so smart and witty. I loved it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I laughed at the fact versus opinion. That's what it was in a box. And they all look the same.

Portia Pendleton: Just mix them up. What else?

Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought it was interesting to have the memory dump, right? And where we forget things. But I think it's also interesting or just something to reflect on, is that it's still to a degree in there somewhere, right? So you can be triggered and all of a sudden have this memory or have a little bit of almost, which I think is such an interesting concept. Like deja vu, right? You have this deja vu yes. Feeling based on a smell. You're like, oh, there's something I remember about this and you can't quite touch on it. Again, not in the words that I'm using, but referenced that they did.

Portia Pendleton: I love that, the deja vu reference. And I thought they picked just such poignant cognitive functions to portray.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton: Like, obviously they don't depict everything, but the ones that they did and when they used the ones like humor fact versus opinion. Sorry. When they used deja vu fact versus opinion to really be humorous. But on point, I just loved it. It was so funny.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I had heard one time that deja vu or someone who experiences a lot of deja vu is like an older soul, and you've been here before many times, and someone who doesn't experience it a lot, like, is new. I kind of like interesting way to think about it. I've heard. What else? If you have a lot of deja vu, you're way more open. You're more, like, empathic. You're more just, like, have a lot of self awareness. You might not be a great human, I don't know, but you just feel like you're open to things, and then if you don't, it's like you're closed. I think it's just interesting how people perceive it. Besides, I guess, the definition of it.

Portia Pendleton: That makes me wonder if there's any neuroscience that's looked into that. I bet there is now. I kind of want to go look it up. If we find any, maybe we'll again, try to put it in the show notes. I don't know what that means.

Dr. Katrina Furey: We'll try people link their merch to it. So I feel like it's got to just be a link.

Portia Pendleton: Okay, maybe we can make some merch for deja vu. Be like, you bought this before, buy it again.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's funny.

Portia Pendleton: Do you have a lot of deja vu? I feel like I don't really I.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Feel like I used to, and I don't know what that means, but I feel like I used to have deja vu very frequently and would say that to my mom or my partner or a friend and just be like, oh, I have feel deja vu right now. I haven't lately. And I don't know. Just even thinking of brain development, right. Like, my brain is less elastic as it was years ago. I don't know if that decreases it. Again, thinking about more of, like, a neuro approach to it.

Portia Pendleton: That's interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Or I'm something.

Portia Pendleton: You'Re closing that door. Is there anything else about this movie you want to talk about or not?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Then that just everyone should see it.

Portia Pendleton: I know, I'm really curious.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Adorable. Get people's perspective on it, you know what I mean? I just think it would be interesting for patients to watch it for friends, family, just and what they take.

Portia Pendleton: I'm curious. I feel like this is the kind of movie that on an inpatient psychiatric unit of all ages, honestly, but especially probably kids and teens. This would be a great one to have on, like, in the Milieu, which is that's like a fancy word for just saying, like, the common area. But don't you think that would be like, a great one to have on? It's just so great. And I really want to start a GoFundMe or something for a sequel about puberty.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. I think that we got like a three second approach with the boy and his brain.

Portia Pendleton: I was just like, but you know what? We really need Portia, and honestly, maybe this is our call to task with this podcast is a sequel about living through COVID as an adolescent. Don't we need that? Don't all the teens need it? There's such a huge mental health crisis right now. We need it. Disney we really need it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like every intake I have with a younger person, I'd say like 22 and under. And I know obviously it affects older people, but I think it's really interesting to see how COVID impacted youth and college students because it was so I think when you're an adult, things tend to be a little bit more stable, right. Or the same.

Portia Pendleton: Your frontal lobes, the part of our brain that makes us human and helps us with our cognition, decision making stuff, doesn't finish developing like 25, 30.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: So, like middle school, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like middle school is so important. High school is so important. College can be so important, right. For specific developmental milestones. So to miss about two years, really, I think, like the end of one. So I was kind of reflecting on it with someone recently who's, like, freshman year of college, went home and did not come back in March and never came back. And then the following year their school did online only. So it's like they missed two full years of what to me, and again, are developmentally such important times. I know adult we have been impacted in many other ways by COVID, and we could go on and on about that, but I think it's very unique to younger people in the context of.

Portia Pendleton: Their development and also unique that it happened to all of them.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton: It was happening because of a trauma, right? Like a very scary, life threatening time that as a middle schooler, high schooler, how is your brain making sense of why you have to stay home and why mom and dad are scared and why you're doing school online? And I will say I found, like, some people, especially, like kids who were being bullied or have a lot of social anxiety or things like that, really thrived in that break from daily peer interactions. But I think on the whole, Gosh just so disruptive and social media, it's just like I feel like we're just going to be seeing the effects for the rest of our lives and careers, honestly. I think so. Disney we really, really need a sequel about coming through COVID.

Dr. Katrina Furey: COVID did impact every single student in the United States. Whether it was just fear, whether it was online learning, whatever it was, everyone.

Portia Pendleton: Impacted everyone's experience and impact it have will be different. But it was there, right? Did you ever learn about the what was they called? The gaff score where they would try to rank stressful life events. We used to use it like in the Er when you'd be evaluating someone and trying to think about what are their psychosocial stressors, there's some researcher out there who wants to quantify it. So they did some kind of research study and then assigned points to different stressors and death. Divorce and moving were like the top three. So these were positive stressors, like having a baby and then also negative stressors and just did back in the day, I guess people used to actually tally it up and put a Gaff score in your note and that would help gauge, like if you go to inpatient or outpatient or things like that. We kind of stopped doing that, but it was really helpful to sort of keep that in mind. Structures COVID is like top of the list now, right? For literally everyone. Even if you're generally doing okay, it's still there.

Dr. Katrina Furey: We're coming up. Yes, coming up. I think really interestingly in ways that I with all of my patients, whether it's like just reflecting on why you kind of got catapulted into this mental disorder around that time interesting what's that about? Or having parents kind of lose it during COVID and then make decisions that then impacted my patient or something like that. So I think a lot of stuff keeps coming back to that time. I think emotions or anything that you were going through separate from COVID during COVID maybe got even shuttered. And now it's like things are coming out. It comes up everywhere.

Portia Pendleton: Everywhere. It's interesting. I don't know if you're finding this, but now that we're closer to three years from when it's also hard to believe where we were three years ago. I think about that sometimes. But just now when people are noticing having reactions this time of year, or people are starting to travel more and maybe have anxiety about that when they didn't. And I'm finding a lot of people don't recognize that you live through Coat. Let's not forget that part. So usually I remind them and I say, even if this isn't at the front of your mind, if you're not worried about do I wear a mask or not? It's still there. And of course it's going to affect you. And you might just notice feeling different about traveling or something than you did before. So I really want to petition Disney to make a sequel.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like the kids need it.

Portia Pendleton: Like the kids need it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Kids need something, I think, to make sense of and just kind of not that it's Disney's job, but just something to help them process.

Portia Pendleton: But Disney does such a good job with this stuff.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And not that it's not this ongoing issue, but just some way to formulize or identify, make it concrete. Yes, just like this movie did with.

Portia Pendleton: These typical developmental things. What a hard concept. Friendship changes, integrating complex feelings and being able to sit with it. It isn't Disney's job, but Disney's, like, really good at this stuff, and they have the budget.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: So maybe I'll write them a letter today. We'll see.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, thank you for listening. We hope that you enjoy the hearing about Inside Out. It's really fun, I think. Watch it again if you've seen it. I just think it's great.

Portia Pendleton: And please sign our change petition in the show notes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. So make sure you're following us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts. Make sure you send us an email if you'd like to chat or give us some ideas at analyze scriptpodcast at gmail. Make sure that you are subscribing to us on Apple Music and Spotify and wherever else you find your podcast. And I think that's all of that.

Portia Pendleton: That's it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Stay tuned. See you next Monday.

Portia Pendleton: All right, bye bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts.

Portia Pendleton: All rights reserved.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with.

Portia Pendleton: Your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine.

Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended.

Portia Pendleton: Or should be inferred.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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