Analyze Scripts

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are joined by triple board certified psychiatist Dr. Sulman Mirza AKA @thekicksshrink. We are blown away by the lasting impact of this movie from 1975 on the field of psychiatry and psychology. We discuss the sociopathy of Randle McMurphy and the iconic villain, Nurse Ratchet. We wrap it up with our frustration in the field, both in the past and present...like with lobotomies, ETC depictions, ODD diagnoses and more. We hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: There is so much misinformation out there and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM Five and enjoy. Welcome back to Analyze scripts. We are so excited you're joining us today for an episode about the classic, I guess I think in a Bad Way film, one Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. We're thrilled to be joined by Dr. Sulman Merza, who is a triple board certified psychiatrist with expertise in psychiatry, child and adolescent psychiatry, and addiction medicine. I would call that a triple threat. He completed his psychiatry residency at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. His Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship at the University of Maryland and Shepherd Pratt Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland. He's had the privilege to work in a variety of settings, from inpatient psychiatric units with medical capabilities to the classrooms of Baltimore City Public schools. He's learned from some of the leaders and pioneers in the field of psychiatry, and his experiences have allowed him to develop a deep understanding of neuropsychiatric conditions in both children and adults. And he has a keen knack for the Internet, and you can find him at the Kick Shrink on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. And I have to say, Sulan, I love your videos. I feel like they're very visually appealing. But also the content is so great. You really have a way of putting out a lot of really accurate, detailed information in a really entertaining, easy to digest way, and I think that is really hard to do. So I just want to give you some props for that. I don't know if we still say props, but I feel like I'm really impressed. We can still say that. No, I'm really honestly impressed. I feel like you have themes where you do medication. Saturday, I'm not going to remember all the names off the top of my head, but then there's like, historical lessons. There's a lot of good info about ADHD I've told you offline. I love your stuff about WWE. I think it's really great. So I hope everyone goes to check them out.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah. Thank you both for having me on here. Really excited I came across you guys, I was like, oh, my God, I love the movies and entertainment and pop culture. And I was like, this is and I love kind of bringing psychiatry psychology into all of that because so much of that is present. So I was like, let's see if we can collaborate on something.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. No, we're thrilled.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And we chose this movie and book. So the book came out in 1962 with the movie 1975. I had never seen this movie, but I had heard of it, which I think is part of our discussion with how powerful this was that kind of shaping people's views of psychiatry inpatient care and treatments.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right, right. I think it's so true. We were talking about with Dr. Jesse Gold in our most recent episode about season two of Yellow Jackets, which has another awful scene about ECT. Again, just how this film has permeated through our culture. Even if you haven't seen it, like, you're saying you haven't seen it, but you know of it, and it's like it's had this really long lasting, unfortunate impact, which is ironic because apparently it won a Bazillion. Academy Awards, made a lot of money, it was very well received, it won all these awards, and yet it was awful in terms of its portrayal of mental health care.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah. The history of film, it's one of the few movies that has gotten has won the big five awards, right. Best picture, best director, best actor, best actress and then best adapted screenplay.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: In history. I think there's only this and I think maybe one or two other movies that have won all of those big five. And then I think when AFI American Film Institute does their top hundred films, or top hundred, whatever, this is always one of those top movies. I think Nurse Ratchet will talk about her in a bit. She's gone down as one of the top ten villains in film history of all time, right up there with Hannibal Lecter and another psychiatrist and Darth Vader. So it's like Darth Vader and Hannibal Ectos. You can see how powerful this is in our culture and our history.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, that's so true.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And the name so right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like, people say things are ratchet, like, oh, that's so ratchet.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I was like, Is that from this?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That's a great question.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I don't know, like, Nurse Ratchet or like, even again, like, not seeing the film. It's pretty old right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: At this point. What's, 30 coming up in 50 years?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It's still impacting today in some very strange ways that I think people have no idea about.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. Isn't that fascinating that it's had such a long lasting effect?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah. So again, when I watched it the other day, I was like, man, first of all, I was like, this movie is like almost 50 years old, right. Seeing the cast members, I was like, oh, my God, this person is gone. This person is dead. This person is dead. And for a lot of these actors in there, some of them were like christopher Lloyd, I think, made his view in this movie.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yes.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Billy the character, Brad Durh, who played Billy Bibbitt, that was like his movie debut. You see a young Danny DeVito in there.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I didn't even catch that until the end credits, I was like, oh my God, that was Danny DeVito.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: That was Danny DeVito. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Was this Jack Nicholson's first movie or.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: I'm imagining was I think he was pretty established by that time, but I think this was the one maybe he won his first award for and the one that really was like, oh, this guy is a superstar now.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So first impressions?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: You said you were not pleased.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I mean, I don't think very much.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: You know, what's interesting is we just recorded and we'll have released an episode about Girl Interrupted, and then we're watching this one and I was like, oh, this is so fascinating because it's like similar time periods and they're both on inpatient hospital units. And I thought it just is interesting, the timing. Know, with Girl Interrupted, we really focus on borderline personality disorder and Winona Ryder's character, know, some antisocial personality disorder discussion with Angelina Jolie's character. And again, here we're finding the male view of antisocial personality disorder with Jack Nicholson's character, Randall McMurphy. So it was just interesting to sort of see again how they depicted an inpatient psychiatric unit, which I thought the environment was pretty accurate for those times. And still today it hasn't changed much. But I was struck immediately by, again, the nurses wearing their white clothes, which again, accurate for the time, not so much these days. All the orderlies I felt like were going to burst into a barbershop quartet song or serve me some ice cream with their little bow ties and stuff. But I feel like overall, when I rewatch this movie, it just makes me so sad to just see sort of how they portray the coercive nature of mental health treatment, especially ECT, the medication, so everything feels so punitive. That I think makes me really sad watching it as a psychiatrist and I don't think is accurate based on my experiences inpatient units.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, especially for today. Again, this was before my time. This is before I was born that this movie came out. No way to really tell what it was like, but it's this bizarre feeling of like, man, this is the image that has been there and permeated the culture of what this was. And I think when we were probably before enter our residency, and we're like, you get a little bit scared of going on the psychiatric floor for the first time as a med student, you're like, oh my God, what's it going to be like? Again, for those of us who have not been on an inpatient psychiatric floor, you're like, what is it going to be like? How are people going to be? Is it going to be like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? And then you get in there and you're like, oh, wait, it's not like that.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right? Yeah. I thought even the patients on the unit, the way they were depicted, I just thought was very stigmatizing and inhumane. And inaccurate. It felt like I had a hard time figuring out what each of the people like, what their diagnoses were, and they just sort of came across as being I don't know, how would you describe them?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Some of them were caricatures, right? I think we had the one patient who had been lobotomized who was just kind of there as the quote unquote vegetable. And then you have the know, the one guy, older guy who's just kind of dancing the entire time. You have Mr. Harding, I think is the closeted homosexual. And then you have some know, Billy Bibbitt is like the Stutterer. So again, you have these kind of caricatures that show up in you know, it's like, is it good? Is it bad? And not always. I think something from the book that's always just kind of lost in people is I think, if I remember correctly, I read the book, like, in high school, and I quickly did like a Wikipedia before this, just to kind of refresh a little bit. Yeah. And I was like, the book is told from the point of view of Chief, right, who in the book is a paranoid schizophrenic. Right. You have all this other he's got these conspiracy theories and this kind of bizarre delusions of how the world is being run, which none of that comes.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Across in Totally Lost.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, he's totally depicted as like, oh, he's just this quote unquote Indian, right, native American that can't talk. And it's one of the worst kind of things I think we've seen as psychiatrists or in the field is you get consults on people who are non English speaking and people are like, what's wrong with this person? They're not understanding what I'm saying. You know what? Again, it's just like, oh, you just didn't use the interpreter line. You didn't take the time to bother to find out how they communicate. But that was kind of the image in my mind. I was like, wow, this poor guy. Chief got thrown into the mental health or into the psychiatric unit because nobody could communicate with him. And that's what he's here for and he's just kind of gone along with it. There's no way to tell at all that he's schizophrenic in the movie at all. Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Whereas I think in the book I also read it a long time ago, so I don't quite remember, but I believe there was a lot more dialogue about his paranoid thoughts, even if he wasn't saying them. You were getting that background, whereas even in the movie, you just see him sweeping a lot. Like, he doesn't seem especially paranoid.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: No, not at all. Again, in the movie, he's depicted as like this, again, totally normal person who just ended up there for some reason because he's, quote, deaf and dumb. And again, nobody can communicate with him.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And it's like, I don't think that's how you end up on a psychiatric unit.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Right. That's sometimes how you hopefully, again, you may get that random psych consult just because, again, some surgery resident will be like, I can't talk with the person.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: They must be bipolar.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, they must be a bipolar. Or they must be like something. Or they're just like, no, they just don't speak English. Which I think we all have our stories.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: We saw that in Side Effects right at the beginning.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So there's a gentleman who's brought into the Er who had attacked, they said, like a cab driver because he thought.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: He had seen his father. And in that culture, there's a lot of ghosts and seeing relatives and elders. The psychiatrist in that movie, this is a good depiction, started speaking, I think, French or Creole and was able and then was able to understand what actually happened then was like, you don't need to keep him cuffed, so on and so forth. So that was a good depiction. Know what we didn't see here, maybe, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. What were your first impressions, Sulman, about Jack Nicholson's character?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: It's interesting because he's the main character. He's the hero of the film, per se. Right. The main protagonist of the film is this guy who's going to come onto the unit and rabble rouse and free all the patients who are there. And he has this idea that, again, these people are held there against their will, when actually he's the one who's being involuntarily committed. He's the one who's being held there. They have that moment in therapy where everyone was like, oh, I'm actually here because I want to be here. And it's kind of eye opening experience for him. And I think people kind of like in the beginning, or people will kind of forget that he's really a terrible person. Right? He's there because he's done these terrible crimes. He's a pedophile, for lack of a better term. He's committed statutory rape. And he's kind of reveled in the fact that he's being very graphic in describing the situation that occurred with this 15 year old girl. And you're just like, oh, wow, this guy is really a dirt bag. He's really not a good person. And he's committed all these crimes and he's lying to get out of prison so that he can be in, again, this vacation, quote unquote, that he thinks he's going to be on the mental health ward and he's going to dupe everybody. And you're like, wow, this guy is really antisocial.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: But then he's portrayed again, this charismatic person who's going to free all these people. So he's, again, not taking into consideration the impact of his actions and how Billy ends up not spoiler, but ends up completing suicide at the end of the movie. So by kind of accidents of what happened during the course of the film and that last night that they were there, right? Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I mean, I thought this was a good depiction of antisocial personality disorder in terms of the fact that people with these traits can be very charismatic, right? Like, that's how Ted Bundy lured all his victims, right. And I thought also that initial scene between McMurphy and the psychiatrist, who again, was an older white man, I thought his office was pretty spot on for what a psychiatrist's office probably looks, know? But you even see, like, trying to weasel his way in by commenting on the photos yes. About the fish he won and all this stuff. And you just see his true lack of remorse or empathy right away when the psychiatrist says, well, you've been in jail for five assaults, and there's this rape charge. And just the provocative, uncomfortable way he talks about that whole thing, I think gives you all the info you need to say, like, I think you got antisocial personality disorder and you're malingering. I don't know what more they could have done for him. And yet they keep him there, and it's like they want to help. But do they? It's unclear. And I wonder at the time of.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: The movie, too, now, I mean, how his description of the child that he was with was so gross that that stayed with me for the rest of the film. But I'm wondering, too, even at the times, I think, why he won. And part of the reason why the movie did so well is because you kind of go back and forth with hating him and liking him. He wants to free people from their oppressed system, nurse Ratchet. And I think it's kind of interesting. He's like this horrible person, but then you're like, I would imagine some people, even maybe more so in the 70s, are like, rooting for him to free the patient. And it's interesting.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, absolutely. He is portrayed like he is the protagonist of the film, right. He is the hero. He's like the guy that, again, you're rooting for him and at the end, again, not to go into spoiler territory, but when he gets lobotomized, you're like, oh, I feel bad for him, right, a little bit. But at the same time, again, you are rooting for him and you're going along for him during the whole movie. And yeah, it is problematic. Absolutely. And it's really interesting when you look at it from when the book was written and the author, Ken Kesey is his name, right. He goes, know, again, a lot of what he was doing was a lot about how the themes are like, you're supposed to be against society, against this oppressive society, and about being the individual and being a real man, quote, unquote. So, again, all the masculinity aspects that come up in this and how society has castrated the man of today, right. That's some of the themes that are in the book, in the movie. So that's there and Ken Kesey goes on to in his life become this proponent of psychelic drugs and how we have to use again these substances to find this other sense of reality individuality when it's like you're kind of talking about a psychiatric facility and medications and then you're like, but no, we're going to use LSD and we're going to use still all the hallucinogenics and psychedelics to reach this altered sense of being too. So it's double standard, double that comes out.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Which interestingly, I think is still attention in the field today, right? Like I still think we encounter this a lot, people maybe who've had negative experiences with mental health care or haven't felt fully helped or fully heard or understood. And there is more and more research into psychedelics and the tools, how they can be helpful, but it's still a big gray zone and I think that tension is still felt even 50 years later.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, absolutely. Again, I'm very much keeping my ear to the field of this in my own clinical practice, like I do at my practice we do Spravata, which is the intranasal ketamine, and I've seen fantastic results from it. So it's really kind of been like, oh, there's something to this, right? There's some legitimacy to what this is. And I think as a field and as a society, we're absolutely robbed of decades of research, what could have been done when we criminalized all these substances. So I think there's some truth to it. But at the same time, just as many success stories we hear there's so many horror stories of things and just because everything is because everything is regulated so much, we're not able to, again, do proper research and get, again, really effective dosing the quality control that comes when you're buying illicit substances or black market substances, right? That's where the problems come. Because then you get people who are like, well, I'll just go do shrooms on the weekend and I'll be all good. Why do I need to microdose prozac? Right? I'll do this and so and then things, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Exactly. So one thing I found myself wondering while watching this movie is that relationship dynamic between Mick Murphy and Nurse Ratchet is really central to the film. And at first I found Nurse Ratchet to be so comforting, like the way she spoke and the way she just looked at you and she seemed so gentle and so well put together. But as the film goes on, you see this more sadistic side to her. And first of all, I don't think the nurse runs the therapy sessions on a unit. Usually that's done by a trained therapist. So that was a really interesting, huge error in the film. But then also she had so much control and is really depicted as being a pretty sadistic person and using all these types of severe punishments like ECT and the lobotomies, even the medications in a manipulative, cruel way. And I found myself wondering, is that who she really is or did he pull this out of her with his own behaviors?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: I think this was who she was, because I think we see it even in that first group therapy session where she's weaponizing these people, the patients kind of their insecurities. I think she's like one of those people who, again, has a little bit more therapeutic training than a typical nurse on the unit may have. But she's really weaponizing it against some of the kind of defense mechanisms, some of the what's it called? I can't even think of the word right now.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But she's weaponizing their vulnerabilities.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, she's weaponizing their vulnerabilities against them. And again, it is this aspect, again, when we come to the and this was there from the first scene, from the first group therapy scene, you see it like she picks on I think it was Mr. Harding, and that's with his wife being your wife, why do you think your wife is cheating on you? And then they have the whole discussion, and then it's like, well, actually, I think this is the reason why, and this is what's happening, and cuts really deep to the core. And I think you see McMurphy picks up on that. He's kind of there as a passive bystander observer in the first group therapy session. He's like, let me kind of see what the situation is and let me see who the characters are and what everybody is. And then I think he picks up, they're like, oh, this person is evil, too, in her own way. And he's like, now we're going to kind of compete a little bit to see who's really running really going to run the unit. She's got the one who's got, again, the backing, the strength behind her as well.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right. It's almost like he's found his match. He could sense, like, they both share this sadistic side, and it just comes out in these different ways. And again, I think very gender normative type of ways, perhaps. But I think you're right from the beginning, nurse Ratchet can pick up those vulnerabilities in the patients and does use it to her advantage. And then that made me wonder, like, are these people really here voluntarily, or does she have this hold on?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, because I think there's that aspect, too, where, again, they all say, we could we can leave at any time, but they've been conditioned to feel like they're not ready to go. Right. Especially, again, Billy is one of the kind of the main characters, in a way, in that she's like, oh, me and your mom are old friends. What would she think, again? Which, again, leads to his fate, in a way. Well, directly to his fate. But again, it's the things that she does, again, grabbing onto these vulnerabilities and really kind of keeping all the patients where they're at.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Not allowing them to progress.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right, exactly.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: You see that in the group dynamic. It makes sense why, but she seemed to be kind of like, rationing everything up instead of kind of rationing everything up. That was not intentional, but afraid there.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Instead of removing right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: A group member.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I've run a good amount of groups. It's like, okay, if someone seems like they're getting dysregulated, sometimes it's like, okay, maybe go meet with this person and come back. Or let's try to de escalate the group.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like that scene with the cigarettes.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. And she's, like, continuing to dig at each one of them and kind of.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Pit them against each other. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And that was not what group therapy is at all. And I think, again, just another depiction of it being really out of control and unsafe and scary and chaotic versus trying. The point of group work right. Is to feel safe or feel like.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Other people get it. Yeah. Learn not just from the group therapy leader, but also from each other in a healthy, safe way, and exactly. It was like that whole scene with the cigarettes where everything unravels. It's almost like she kind of knew what she was doing. And then, because they behave so crazy, now we can send these three troublemakers to get ECT.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: How do you feel about that depiction of ECT?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: If nothing else, the lasting legacy of the movie is the depiction of what ECT is in the mental health field. Which at that time again, I don't know what it was like, but that movie was in the mid seventy s and it was placed in the 60s or the time was in the 60s. So sure that that was even outdated kind of experience of what act was. ECT, that we do now, or at least I haven't done act in ten ish years, I think back since my residency training. 910 years. Yeah. That it's. So different, right? ECT so different. All the research is the most effective, safest kind of treatment that we have out there. Are there people who are going to have issues with memory and headaches? Sure. But those are, again, very small. And when we compare that to the medications that we have, which we know our medications are dirty in a way. Right. There's a lot of side effects that come a lot of times when we're doing med check visits as, like, a psychiatrist or an outpatient or going forward, it's like, Are you having side effects? Are you having side effects? What side effects are you having? Right. That's the majority of kind of, like, our sessions. It's like, well, how do we manage these side effects? And then, by the way, are you feeling less depressed or less anxious or something like that, too? But let's deal with the side effects.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: First, especially for things like antipsychotics.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah. Which are just like, again, very dirty medications. In a way. When we find a medication that has minimal, mild to minimal side effects, we're like, okay, we can deal with this. Right. We can work with this. Now, we've found the thing that worked for us, an act, for the most part, again, super clean. Right. People do really well. The memory loss, again, can it occur? Sure. It doesn't happen often. Not so much. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And usually isn't it for the memory loss that you experience? Isn't it for the time, like right around getting the treatment? It's not your whole life you forget or you can never lay down in a memory. Isn't it like just around the time you're getting the treatment?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: That's the most common is, again, just the amnesia that occurs around the treatment. Of course. Are there people who have more severe memory loss or have other kind of injuries that occur? Sure. But again, those are the exceptions, more so than the rule. And again, not to minimize what they've gone through, but again, we always look at things as a risk benefit and a big picture kind of thing, right. But ECT works, right? It's got a greater success rate. It's again, super safe in pregnancy. It is the treatment of choice in pregnancy a lot of times, and then it can help for so many people, for things like catatonia, it is, again, the treatment of choice that works really well. So it's something that, again, when we try to recommend it to people, I'll have patients and I'm like, hey, I think we're at a point where we need to look at something like TT and they're like, one flu with Google's Nest. What are you talking about?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Every time, almost every single time, it.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Becomes this Pavlovian response, almost, where people are like, one flu over Googleness? What are you talking about? Nothing's wrong with I'm not crazy, I don't need to do that. And you're like, no. And you have to kind of undo what this movie has done because you're like, it's totally different. It's a controlled environment. It's totally voluntary. You have an anesthesiologist, you have a psychiatrist. You're going to be going under really briefly. The seizure is controlled. You have a muscle relaxant or you have what's it called, the medications that are there so that the seizure is just localized just to your ankle.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Sure.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: And somebody's there with you. And it's a very comforting thing. Right. You're not going to experience anything and you'll feel better. Right? And they're like, no, I could never do that. They're going to make me bite on this thing, and I'm going to shake and I'm going to break my bones, and I'm going to forget everything, and I'm going to be like a vegetable when I come out. And it's like, no, please just erase that from your memory.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I know. I wish we could erase that from our conscious memory.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And even just like him going in there and there's like ten people in there, right? Like all the orderlies are in there ready to kind of restrain him, hold him down. Yeah. So even just like seeing that walking in the room again now, it's very.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Different, and he didn't know what was happening. I think that's what really jumped out at me the most this time is there was no informed consent. There was no explanation. It was like sending your yeah. In such a scare, like, they're just like, oh, we're going to put this conducted on your head, and we're here. Bite down on this. You could see how scared he was. And again, it's like, who wouldn't be, right? Who of us wouldn't be scared? If you walk into a room with all these people holding you down, of course you're going to freak out, but that is not how it's done at all.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: No, at all. It was really striking, too, because, again, he's portrayed as this really bad tough guy, right? And then you see it in Jack Nicholson. Again, his performance is fantastic in the movie where he grounds the corner to see the door, to walk into the door, where this like, he catches himself, and you're like you see the terror come over him, and you're like, he has no idea what's happening. We know from the field and just from having watched the movie before, like, oh, this is what's going to happen. But he has no idea. There's no mention of this at all. So it's a total surprise. And again, all these people are there, and he's like, what is going to happen? So this extreme moment of vulnerability for this person who's been portrayed as this big, bravado, tough guy the whole movie, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And I think the only clue he has is watching Cheswick get the treatment before him, right? You see them dragging him against his will to get it, and then he comes out like a vegetable on the stretcher. And then it's like, okay, you're up. And it's just so unfortunate. Again, I also haven't performed ECT myself since residency, but from what I remember, it can be an outpatient procedure, right? It's not something where you have to be institutionalized to get you come in, it's almost like having a day surgery get not even as invasive in a lot of ways. And again, I feel like that doesn't make sense to the average person to think like, you're stalking my brain. How is that not invasive? It is. I'm not saying it's not, but you come in, you talk about it, they sort of explain to you exactly what's going on in a very respectful way. There's a couple of people in the room. You have the psychiatrist, you have the anesthesiologist, you have a nurse. That might be it. Maybe there's a tech or someone like that. It doesn't take very long. They usually do unilateral. You pick one side first, and then as long as that works, you don't have to do bilateral, which means putting the things on both sides of your head that can lead to more side effects. So we try to avoid it. You're right that you have anesthesia and a paralytic so that your body basically stays still. You look for the twitch in the ankle. That's it. We're not thrashing you around, we're not holding you down. You're not biting your tongue. It's very quick, very mild.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And then I think it takes maybe.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: An hour or so, like in recovery, maybe a little longer, probably less, but I think you're observed for a period of time, but it's not that long. Then you go home and you do a couple of treatments.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Maybe at first you do two to.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Three a week for a period of time to get you into remission from whether it's depression, psychosis. You're 100% right that this is such a good treatment for conditions in pregnancy because there's no risk of medication effects on the fetus. Right. And then as you start to feel better, you space out the treatments. And then some people might get maintenance ECT to keep up the effects. And that's it. And, I mean, I had an attending psychiatrist, which is like your teacher in residency always say it would really frustrate him when we were on the inpatient unit, that we would have to petition the courts to get something like ECT. When he's like, all of these antipsychotics we're giving people have so many side effects, like diabetes, tartar, dyskinesia, anesthesia, all of these things that are so hard to control, and yet it's so much easier to give people these medications and not ECT. And I really wonder how much of that comes from this movie how much of that comes from the long lasting negative effects of this film on our society at large?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, I would very much say that they're directly tied because, again, invariably, almost always gets brought up. And this is around the time of Deinstitution, the book and the movie, around that time where we ended the asylum system, for the most part. Right. And we have this massive decrease in the amount of people who are in mental health institutions or mental facilities, and where do they end up? They ended up in prison. Right, right. It's not like around the streets or anything like that. And a lot of those again, a lot of people who will end up, like, unhoused will end up in prison because it's a safe place. You get your three hots and a cotton and these things occur. And they get better care a lot of times. Or they get care yeah, right. At all. While they're in these facilities or in prisons as opposed to the facilities. Because everyone was like, oh, let's deinstitutionalize. And we'll put people into community resources.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Then no one paid for the community resources. We forgot that part. Yeah. We forgot that part.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah. So everyone was like, again, it was putting the carriage before the horse kind of deal, where it's like the resources weren't there. It would have been perfect if they were. And we put funding there and research, and we really put all the resources that were there. It could have been a great system, right. But it just couldn't it hasn't sustained it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right. It hasn't panned out. And I think the film does bring up in a lot of ways, maybe not all of them in positive depictions, but about how do we treat vulnerable people in a humane way and what are examples of that going wrong, which I think this film has a lot of examples of it going wrong. And I think, unfortunately, that drive to deinstitutionalize, I like to think, came from a good place, and yet we forgot to invest in the community infrastructure to really make it effective. Right. I don't think anyone wants people to live their life on an inpatient unit, but for some subset of patients who are really having trouble functioning without that support, where do they end up? You're exactly right. That is where they end up. They end up unhoused. They end up in prison. That is our institution these days. And it's just so heartbreaking.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And we see that in group.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Just put a different name on that again, at least.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I don't know about Maryland or Virginia, but maybe like ten years ago now, there was a lot of group homes closed residential facilities in Connecticut, and a lot of those at the time I was working in residentials and they had kind of made their way still to institutions. But whether it was juvenile incarceration or substance use treatment facilities and again, I get the idea is, yeah, who wants to grow up in a group home? No one. That's not ideal at all.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But also, what do we do with.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: These teens and kids who have nowhere to go, right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And who need that support to a lot of times maintain your safety, not just from kind of like a psychiatric self harming perspective, but also from not being taken advantage of by other nefarious people out there, all the Mcmurphys of the world, who will all the Mcmurphys of the know.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: I know.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So what we don't see kind of continue is lobotomies, right? So thank God they stopped around the 1950s. And I guess there was one the last one that was recorded in the United States was in 1967, and it actually ended up in the death of the patient who it was performed on. So that has not we've stopped that practice while ECT has become really safe, really effective, really studied, really specifically done. And I just thought that's kind of interesting that they're both shown in the movie a short period of time and kind of right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like, at the very end, they don't ever say, like, oh, he got a lobotomy, or that's what happened. You just sort of make the assumption. And I do think as much as we are criticizing this film, it's also important. I'm sure you all agree that we not like us, we did this personally, but as a field, have to acknowledge there have been some bad things that.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Have happened, so we don't do this anymore.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, it's one of the things I know you'd referenced it before, but every Wednesday I do what's called like a WTF Wednesday right. Where it is kind of like looking back on history, some of the dark sides of the field, and not just the mental health field, but primarily the mental health field, to be like, this is what we did. This is the stuff that we did. Like, what the ****? Right? Sorry.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That's okay.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: I was like, what were the things that we were doing that was normal at the time? And a lot of it came from just the lack of understanding and just not knowing what we know. We go back and when I was talking about know, we did bloodletting and purging treatment, that was the father who's the I think he's on the seal as the APA, as the father of psychiatry. And he did this therapy where he would put people in chairs and spin the psychosis, the crazy out of them, quote unquote. Right. And I guess those are the things that we were doing. And then again, the shock therapy without anesthesia, that was, again, kind of like how it was depicted in one flu, the Cooper's Nest, without knowing that, hey, we can do this, but do it a lot safer. So very much a lot of ugly, ugly stuff that occurred in the history of psychiatry. And know, again, not even talking about, I think, Samuel Cartwright and some of the people who did a lot of the terrible stuff, like in the history of gynecology, so much stuff there's. Like, you can have a whole discussion on the terrible history of gynecology in.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: American Threat as well, 100%. And I think it is important as present day providers to keep all that history in mind and also keep that healthy degree of skepticism like in the stuff we do these days to think just to stay ethical and humane. And I think also looking back on all those practices, there unfortunately is a lot of racial discrepancies, socioeconomic discrepancies about which patients were getting these treatments or these experimental treatments or things against their will or even against their knowledge. And that's terrible, but we have to keep it in mind to hopefully turn the tides and keep working toward better, more equitable, more open types of treatment.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, again, when we really look at the racial history of it and again, we saw it kind of in the movie, but not so much all of the black individuals were the orderlies. There were no black patients that were there. I know Chief is again the Native American, but he's a patient as well. But everybody else was white, all the people in power. Yeah, the one white doctor there was, I think, like the Indian doctor and maybe there was some other doctor that was there when they had like, their rounds for that one, during that one scene of rounds and discussing stuff. But again, it's a lot of the white people, but we know that historically, or even not historically, but currently too, black individuals get diagnosed with schizophrenia four times higher than non or than white individuals. So that's something that and we know that these rates are not true. It's not like people are four times more likely to be no, it's just a lot of this goes into the biases that occur. We know that, again, non white kids get diagnosed with ADHD less than white kids. We know that, again, non white kids are having more odd, odd more conduct diagnoses than white kids. There's that aspect of, like, oh, this is just how they are. So, again, we don't look at trauma disorders as much in non white individuals. We're like, oh, this is just characteristically or character logically. This is who they are. And again, these are the biases that come out, and we see them. And a lot of, like, when I'm seeing patients, I end up undiagnosing so many of these diagnoses that are misplaced that I'm like, clearly this kid has trauma, right? Clearly this teenage girl has PTSD. She's not bipolar. Clearly, this kid has ADHD. They have a learning disorder that's never been recognized, right? Because somebody didn't take the time to really sit down with them and discuss them or see what's going on there 100%.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And even we've seen you commented on one of Dr. Callie's videos on you know, I'm just thinking back, I guess, eight years ago, working at a teen male adolescent substance use unit, every single one of them had Odd, like, coming in. It was almost like a prerequisite to be on the unit. Like, you had a substance use disorder, sometimes a couple, and then you had Odd, and it's, like, literally just kind of reflecting back on it. I don't know, 99% of them I'll leave 1% just for room had trauma, like, significant trauma, whether it was chronic or just, like, singular traumas. And that really even eight years ago wasn't really addressed. So I think even now, I think we're doing a better job of just sharing information and kind of deconstruct some of it. And of course, there's always tons of room to grow and keep going. But I think even we've done a lot of work in the past couple of years.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And I hope that as we keep trying to better understand our patients and the human condition at large, I think we're also starting to talk about that trauma. That different subsets of the population experience is directly tied to the experience of being, like, a black person in America today, for example, that, yeah, there's a lot of trauma that comes with that that you might not call PTSD, but it's there. And it's directly tied to politics, economic, like, all of it. And I think it can feel really overwhelming. And like, you get swallowed up to see that in clinical practice day in and day out. But it's so important to acknowledge rather than saying like, well, you're just oppositional or you're just psychotic or it's so much more complicated than yeah.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: And to kind of give a story with know, I work in Loudoun County in Virginia, which is like the richest county in America. And our neighbor is Fairfax County, which is the second richest county in a certain the patients that we see are certain demographics, I guess you can say, right? Predominantly white. Vinya is predominantly white. There's a shift with it as it's become much more like technologically, a leader and we have a lot of it stuff. So then there's a changing demographic that's kind of there. But I'm always struck by this one patient counter. I'll try to hide details and things, but it was a little African American kiddo, and he had punched one of his peer at school, and he got in trouble for that. Right. And I was trying to see how do I tell this story a little differently? The question I asked is, when they come to me, I'm like, well, why'd you punch the kid? Right. What happened that led to this? Right? And he's like, well, he called me the N word, right? And then I'm like, well, I'm not mad at you. Right, right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So what is the right way to.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Handle that, to respond to this bully called him the N word and he punched him back, and then he's the kid who gets in trouble for it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right. Did that kid come into the psych unit too? The other kid?

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: No, of course not.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Of course not.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Right? Yeah. So it's like this is how we kind of weaponize racial identity and how our cultural background against people. It's like Kiddo had a perfectly totally normal response. Again, are we condoning violence?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: No.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: But at the same time, do I understand why he punched the kid? Absolutely.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And now, though, he's reactive, he's dangerous, he's violent, he's aggressive.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: He's one of those kids.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: He's one of those aggressive black kids. Right. Again, the narrative that's created that he's a troublemaker and a fighter and blah, blah, blah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right. That's a really positive note to leave, to end on. But it's so true. I mean, I think it's heartbreaking, but I think if we just sort of keep our head in the sand and we don't acknowledge these whatever you want to call it, microaggressions, macroaggressions, racism, misogyny, trauma, poverty. If we don't acknowledge it, nothing will get better.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: It's funny. I laugh when you said microaggressions because I just posted like a video recently I talked with Isra Nasser. She's a Pakistani immigrant, and she's become a very much a leader in mental health and the field of in it in the community. And she's a therapist, counselor and stuff. And I posted a clip about microaggressions that she had faced when she came over, immigrated from Saudi Arabia to over here or Canada and then over here. It's a common thing I joke about, like, oh, you speak English? Really? Again? Like, yeah, you're having the reaction that you understand that that's not a cool thing to say. And I posted on YouTube, and then I'm getting all these comments from people being like, again, white people who are being like, people are just being nice to you when they say that. How dare you have this victim mentality. And it's like, you understand you're proving the point by saying I know. Saying that these people are being nice to you by saying that you speak English really well and you are different and you are this and that, and if you have this victim mentality your whole life, this is how you're never going to get advanced in life.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It's still her fault.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, it's still her fault. I was like, you understand, you're just gaslighting, and you're continuing the microaggressions that are going on by telling people to just be okay with it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I know. What am I proving the point?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And it's like, nothing, maybe nothing. You don't need to comment on that. And I think people love commenting on everything, and I think we could do a better job of just keeping some.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Thoughts in our head or just being a little more introspective and even just being able to say, like, oh, wow, I didn't know about microaggressions, or that was a microaggression, or how that landed for this person, given their experience. Maybe I should think about that and maybe reflect and maybe it's okay, I feel remorseful or embarrassed about it, and I could try to do a little better. Maybe I should listen to them. Maybe they are really like the authority on their own lived experience.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Radical idea. Yeah, radical idea.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: If you don't have the insight that's true. Open to thinking about things a different way, then, right? That's true.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That's true. Anyway, well, this was great.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I mean, is there anything else we want to talk about with the movie or just, like the commentary on it? I think the big themes that I think we covered are, like, it's a lot different now in a lot of different ways. Are there still hospitals and units and therapists and psychiatrists who do a better job than others? Of course. Are there some people who maybe shouldn't be in the field? Of course. But I think it's just reminding yourself, even as a patient, like, you should have informed consent, it's okay to ask questions. You're allowed to say, what is this? I'm interested in something else, or can you talk me through this?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: What are my options?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: If you're recommending prozac, it's okay to ask, well, what about Lexapro? Like, you're allowed to ask questions to, your know, ideally right. The gold standard of care would be that they're listening actively.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, I think kind of like, the takeaway I appreciate the movie the way I don't have this. I think you were saying, like, you have this this gut visceral reaction to the movie. I think it's necessary viewing for all I think it's necessary viewing, right, for a lot of people. If you're in the field, again, from the fact that you have to look at it from a lens of history and a lens of, like, this is what not to do, and this is how we don't do things anymore. This is how things may have been. Again, some of this stuff is absolutely dramatized for the sake of great storytelling, and it is a great movie if you look at it from the point of view of just a movie, somebody who's watching the movie, it's earned its accolades and its place in history. But from the mental health field, it's an important movie still, and it has a lasting impact 50 years later. And we have to know that our patients are aware of this. Our clients are aware of this. They know its history. They know what it is. They have a lot of misconceptions about the field because of this, right? So we have to know that going.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Into it as a whole, 100%. And I'm curious we can cut this out if you don't want to talk about this, but you did mention watching this with your children, and I'm just curious what they thought.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, so I watched it with my eight year old son and my seven year old daughter because I was like, oh, they wanted to do movie night. It's summertime. And I was like, cool. I was like, oh, I have to watch this movie again because I have to talk about it. And they're like, oh, by the way, this was, like, what Baba does for his job, right? He's a psychiatrist. He's one of the people who and these are the people I work lot of it was interesting because they had a lot of questions about what's wrong with this person? What's wrong with the birth, and why are they dancing? What's like, to be like, well, teach them. I was like, well, some people are different. Some people have things that are going on in them that they may act or look or think a little bit differently. And I'm open in saying it. We have someone in our friend community who is like, quote unquote, level three autism. They have intellectual disability communication issues. He's a little bit older, and they play with him and everything like that. And I was like, oh, you know, this guy something's a little bit different with him. Not something's wrong with him, but something a little bit different. And I was like, oh, these are the people that Baba kind of works with a little bit and helps them out, hopefully helps them out. And they're like, oh, okay. And then again, there was a lot of questions. They're like, oh, Baba, they're using a lot of bad words. There's so many bad words in this one, being like, oh, why are they naked together? What's going on? I was like, Guys, close your eyes.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Once the girls come in, you're like.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Oh, well, this is not what Baba does at work.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: I was like, I forgot about this. Again, they're not going to obviously understand everything that was going on in there, and then they enjoyed it. Some stuff they're like, okay, but they're not going to be watching it again and telling their friends that they watched. Right. It's not Transformers or something like that.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Didn'T necessarily grab their attention in the same way. Yeah, but I think that's also just.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, a great anecdote of changing language and how important and powerful language is of well, there's a lot of different people. That doesn't mean that they're bad or weird or strange or scary.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Absolutely.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: We hope you just had a blast revisiting this movie with your children, talking about it with us.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Well, thank you. I appreciate yeah. Again, that's the main thing is we have to and a lot of this kind of came from a conversation I had with Dr. Gold as well. Who Jesse? We all love Jesse. She's great. But when we go out, we publish things. If we work our whole life and we get something published in right. Or the New England Journal of Medicine, again, not everybody very rarely that these things occur. This is like the pinnacle of scientific, academic, medical kind of publishing. The layperson just read it. How many people are reading?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right, right, exactly. And if they try to read it no, I can't even understand half the time.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Yeah, I don't read this stuff half the time because I'm like, I have to really think about this and, like, statistics. I have to think. I have to use my brain reading this. But we know that, again, people are going to get their information from YouTube or they're going to get it from Twitter, they're going to get it from TikToks or they're going to get it from whatever. It's going to be Vogue magazine and Time magazine. So it's like, it's important for people who have legitimate voices and backgrounds to be in those worlds as well. So that versus the people who we know are misusing those to kind of push out BF.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yes. Right. Well, keep fighting the good fight. Keep buying your sneakers. I love to see them.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, and just to remind everyone who's listening, you can find Solman at the Kicks shrink Instagram. So it's Kick Shrink, as in, like, shoes, and then shrink on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube and find his content there. We certainly like it. So I think you will, too.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. And thank you once again for joining us, and you can find us again at Analyze Scripts on Instagram. Analyze Scripts podcast on TikTok and threads and we will see you next Monday with another episode. Yeah, thanks. All right, bye.

Dr. Sulman Mirza MD: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are discussing "She's the Man," a 2006 film starring Amanda Bynes and Channing Tatum. Did you know this movie is based on the Shakespeare's play "Twelfth Night?" This is arguably one of Amanda Bynes' best performances. She is hilarious, captivating and witty. We discuss gender identity and sexuality at great lengths in this episode. Dr. Furey provides us with some medical facts about sex organs and we talk about where a person can fall on the gender expression spectrum. You don't want to miss this one, we hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And your DSM five, and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. We are so excited to be covering the movie she's the man, which came out in 2006 and starred Amanda Bynes and Channing Tatum.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Whoa. I'd never seen this movie before. It's almost 20 years old. Isn't that crazy to think about?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I've seen it many times.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's interesting. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, loved it. One of my favorite movies from, like, teenhood.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Nice. I think this is, again, where I feel really old, but that's okay. So, this movie was based on a play by Shakespeare the 12th night. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I didn't know that until I did research for this podcast episode.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Because we're professional.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Because we want to plan things out. But apparently it's based on the Shakespeare's play, and it's about even by name. Viola and her twin brother Sebastian, they're shipwrecked. They believe that each other drowned. So Viola disguises herself as a young man in order to get a job as a servant for Duke, the Duke of what is it? Or Sino. And it's, like, funny because Duke is played by Tatum. So I had no idea that there were all these references to this.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right, right. And I think it's just interesting. Right. Like, a girl dressing up as a boy, how that has been in culture and society forever. Right. Really interesting to talk about this movie now, just, again, in the political climate of today and everything going on in terms of gender identity.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So we see. Amanda Bynes did a lot of work at this time in some other movies that I absolutely loved. One of them, she goes to, I think, like, England or something to find her long last dad, and then she's absolutely a gem. So she was 20 when this was filmed. Channing Tatum was 26, which I think.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Is we always kind of laugh at.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: People who play high school role.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. They were totally in high school. Yeah. And he was 26. Yeah. It was funny to see Channing Tatum as, like, a youngster and just be like, he really bulked up for magic Mike. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This was even pre, like, the dance movies, not magic. Step up. Step.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yep. And I did find it hard to watch. I'll be Amanda Bynes, like, in her quote unquote prime, given what we sort of have seen happen to her. And again, we're not here to offer any thoughts about someone's personal mental health issues, but I think, Portia, you were pointing out that she's 20 years old in this movie, and around age 24, things started to change for her, which we do see in terms of when women tend to develop significant mental health issues.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And something that I learned more recently as well is that Amanda Bynes actually really lobbied to have Channing Tatum in this role. And it was his first role where he was like a main character.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think I did read that somewhere. I think you recently said that or was giving an interview about that, how we really appreciated that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, so that was sweet. And then we have some other cast members who I thought most notably Daphne, who plays Viola, and Sebastian's mom, played by Julie Hagerty, was also the mom and wife in what about Bob?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And she kind of played the same kind of like a loop, stitzy, disconnected character. I thought it was really funny. The whole thread of the debutante ball is that something that happens up here in the Northeast. So growing up in the south, this is like a thing. And it seemed know, I believe, like, debutante balls back in the day were for maybe even still presently. Like, I remember a couple years ago, reese Witherspoon's daughter was like, in a debutante ball, it's supposed to be like the way high society girls are introduced to society and maybe meet a suitor. Interestingly. Just yesterday I saw a New York Times article about debutante balls or like, debutante societies, but in an African American community, I believe in Detroit or somewhere in Michigan, and how those women really appreciate the balls because it helps them find mentors. So it's interesting because I always thought it was like to find a husband, but it sounds like at least in this community, it shifted a bit to find mentors, which I thought was really positive growing up in the south. I did go to something called Catillion.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Have you heard of what that is? Which they sort of depicted, like, when Amanda Bynes'character is coming in and they're all eating on china and stuff like that. I just remember I had to wear these white gloves and learn how to handshake and how to curtsy. And we had homework assignments in between the sessions where you'd have to shake certain people's hands and they'd have to sign off and you had to learn all these fancy dances like the foxtrot.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, that's exactly what I envisioned it being.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I hated it. I remember I used to pretend to have stomach aches so I wouldn't have to go. And then the final dance, you're supposed to dance with all these boys and it was like in 6th grade or something. I just hated it. So sorry. Mom, if you're listening, I just really didn't love it. But that's sort of spot on depicted, I think, in see.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's kind of just the plot is that Amanda, bynes Viola's character, learns that her high school women's soccer team is being cut, but due to low.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Participation numbers and she is really into soccer.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. We see the opening scene. They're playing on the beach. She seems like she has a good relationship with her boyfriend and her friend. He seems supportive in the moment. So they are really upset and they kind of go up to the boys soccer team and they want to play, and the coach is kind of like, laughing. Like, that's absurd. You can't do that.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Can't play with the boys.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly. And so girls aren't fat. Initially, it seems like they're not even going to let them try out, which, per Title IX, if there is not an alternative sport, then they have to be allowed to try out.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Can you explain portia for our listeners what Title IX is?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So Title IX basically is for education systems and kind of guarantees equal treatment. And what we're seeing now is a lot of Title Nine being brought up with gender identification in sports. So basically it guarantees an equal amount of so I'll just speak to it with sports. I know that it's bigger, but it guarantees an equal amount of sports per school. So, for example, if there's six boys sports teams, there has to be six girls sport teams. If there is a 7th sports team, it has to be coed. So, for example, a lot of I'm thinking about in my high school team, like, golf was coed, and then there was like, boys and girls tennis, football, field hockey. So that's the kind of counterpart. But there has to be an equal number.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Okay. And I think aren't there also, like, I think at colleges and stuff now, they have like, Title IX offices, title Nine coordinators. And I think that's also maybe where you go if you've experienced like a sexual assault or there's some concern about harassment or things like that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right, yeah. So it prohibited sex based discrimination in any school or education program that receives any funding from the federal government. And it started in 1972.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, I thought it was like, recent.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So they've made amendments to it, I'm sure, over and over since then. But that's when it started.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So this initial school would have been in violation of Title Nine then. Okay, good to know. I thought maybe that came about after in the past 20 years, but I guess not.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Okay, good to know. But so they won't let her sort of try out or play. Her boyfriend is really icky and dismissive about her feelings, so she breaks up with him. Good. And then she has this idea that she's going to dress up like her brother and impersonate him at his school for two weeks so that she can make that male soccer team and kind of beat her boyfriend's team. Yeah, it's Cornwall and Illyria Illyria, which was a funny name, but I bet those stem back to the Shakespeare play, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That makes sense, I think.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So that makes a lot more sense.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because they're kind of OD.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So basically, that's the premise of the movie. And we see Amanda Bynes portray stereotypical gender roles and mannerisms in a comedic way. And she's always been known for her comedic timing and the slapstick nature and the physical comedy. She's always been known for that. So you definitely see that here. But what were your thoughts, Portia, about the way she sort of portrayed masculinity versus femininity?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I think she also let's first remind ourselves that this film was probably made in 2004, right? Came out in 2006. So some of the things that they were even just saying when she's in the shower room with Duke and she's just like, calling Brosif broski G money, a lot of those things are also just like from then. And people did say, you know, it's not that outrageous, but I thought she first of all, which we already said, she is just phenomenal at that kind of humor. And so I think ironically now, looking back, though, she in this role is bringing a lot of gender issues and questions up onto the surface in a really big way. Again, that we did not see.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, and again, using humor, which we think of as a mature defense mechanism to explore really complex, difficult topics, much like we talked about with our Barbie episode, but in a different way. And I'm like, was that intentional or was that like, it just happened.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And they take it even further with you see her because they could have easily just thrown a wig and write the sideburns on and just had her wearing like a tightly fitted sports bra. But you see them like, they take the espinage and they're like binding, which is a pretty common practice if someone's trans and they are trying to have like a flat chest. You see her kind of packing like a filled sock to look like a ***** to use in her pants. And again, that's something that is used. So I thought even that could have easily been left out and I don't think anyone would have noticed.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right, I totally agree. And I thought before we continue, I did just want to give a couple of definitions for our listeners because I think as we start talking about gender dynamics, sexual dynamics, trans, cisgender, like, things like that, it can be really confusing. So, again, I want to just give a couple of standard definitions. So when we use the word sex, like in the medical field, the definition of sex is a biological category based on reproductive, anatomical and genetic characteristics, generally defined as male, female and intersex. So something I hear a lot in the popular press and media is like, you're born a boy or a girl that's it. And actually, that's just not true of the human species and a lot of other species if you look into different animals and things like that. So there are several medical conditions where a child isn't born at birth with what we consider male genitalia or female genitalia. Those things can include things like Kleinfelter syndrome, turner's syndrome, and androgen Insensitivity syndrome. And these are complicated things, and we won't get into all the details, but in those different know, the anatomical chromosomal or gonadal, sex varies in some way from what we would typically call male or female genitalia. So for people who are constantly shouting, like, you're either a boy or a girl, that's just not true. Like, there are humans again, it's rare, but there are humans born who, for example, like their internal organs don't match the external genitalia or vice versa. And so, again, usually at birth, parents are kind of advised, like, you can pick the gender. Now, it might change for some of these conditions. Other times, maybe the parents just maybe especially today, like, don't pick and sort of see what the child chooses. But that can change over the course of a child's life. And sometimes people with these conditions prefer to be called intersex. I think back in the day, we used to call people with these conditions hermaphrodites. And that, I think, can have a really negative connotation attached to it. But I think that is important to just point out that not everyone is just born a boy or a girl. So that is sex. That's medical based on these factors, gender is different from that, right? So when we say gender, that refers to socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society associates with being a woman, man, girl, or boy, as well as relationships with each other as a social construct. Gender varies from society to society and can change over time. I think that's really important that we understand that that's what gender it is. I think we see Amanda bynes'character Viola sort of display that right? And so someone's gender identity is an individual sense of being a man, woman, boy, girl, genderqueer non binary, et cetera. And this doesn't have to be visible to other people. What you see from the outside is what we call gender expression. That's how someone chooses to convey their gender identity through their behavior, clothing, or other external characteristics. And not everyone feels safe to do that. And so I just thought it was important to sort of bring up those topics and give those legitimate definitions to help us as we conceptualize this movie and the effects it's had.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So if we also think about gender kind of being on a spectrum, I think we have either end where you are highly feminine appearing or highly masculine appearing, and then we see kind of people forever, right? Like, kind of being in the middle. Like, that would be a tom boy. So a girl who feels more masculine, maybe plays more with masculine toys. They might be more like, I'm just envisioning a little girl who has braids and overalls and is like playing in the dirt with a monster truck, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Roberta from now and then. I don't know if you saw that movie. Oh, my. Again, I'm it's so good.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Portia but I will also add that I think it's always been way more.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Acceptable to be a tomboy than a.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Girl to be more masculine presenting than for a boy to be more feminine presenting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, again, we just see there's this really long range of how you present yourself. And I think what's interesting that you just kind of spoke to, though, is it's different in culture to culture, right. So if I'm thinking of, like, we also covered the movie Barbie. If we think about that Barbie feminism, it's like I'm thinking of someone who might be all the way on one of the spectrum who's wearing, like, all pink, driving a pink car and is, like, in this pink role and likes everything that's feminine.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But that's what that culture calls feminine.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly. And another one might be entirely different of they're all the way at that end. Femininity right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And again, their inner gender identity might not be the same as what they're expressing outside their gender expression. And I think that is where, as people grow up and you start to figure out who are you, really, things can change. And speaking to that in different cultures, again, how gender is such a social construct, I was really interested to learn recently about the concept of two spirit in the Indigenous culture. So Indigenous people I didn't know this before doing a little research before this episode, have kind of always had this concept of two spirit which they sort of define as a person who identifies as having both a masculine and a feminine spirit. And this term is used by some Indigenous people to describe their sexual, gender and or spiritual identity. I thought that was just really interesting. Like, other cultures sort of have lingo to talk about these difficult concepts. And I'm sure it varies from culture to culture, too. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And even, I think as simply as like in, I don't know, I guess American culture, it's like there's some women we could think of it just as this, who don't ever want to wear a dress or a skirt, and they just feel more comfortable always wearing pants or shorts or something like that. And that's such not a big deal. But again, I'd say that is someone who's on a different place of the gender spectrum than someone else who does feel more comfortable or wants to do that because they think of it in a feminine way. So I just think it doesn't have to be that huge. Right. Which I think that's the big kind of conflicts going on. It's like we all land somewhere on it. And I think everyone would be surprised that they're probably not on the end.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right, exactly. Right. Yeah, exactly. And I think like you're saying, how you define masculinity or femininity is really determined by the culture you're growing up in and how you're reacting to that. Right? Yeah. And sometimes I like that example about the dresses or the pants. Just because you like to wear pants, that doesn't mean your gender identity is male. It could not always. Like a lot of women like wearing pants too. It's different. Again, exactly. I think the way you're expressing yourself is different from your gender identity for some people. So given that example, why don't we also define what transgender means? Because that is a term that we use a lot in our American society. It is hot in politics right now.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Also a lot with title nine, specifically in sports.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. That has been everywhere these past few years. So the official definition of transgender is someone who identifies with the gender other than the one that was assigned to them at birth, period. Okay, guys, that's it. It has nothing to do with your genitalia. It has nothing to do with your anatomic, chromosomal, gonadal, sex organs. That is it. It means that the gender you identify with differs from the one you were assigned at birth. There is a lot of discussion, I think, about this term because in some ways it feels outdated or there's some criticisms about it because it sort of implies that there was a point at which someone was cisgendered, which means that your inner gender identity matches the gender you assumed at birth. The word trans in some ways, some people, some critics of that word will say like, implies that you were cisgendered than you became transgendered, I think, which can be really harmful. But it does give us a language to use. So often when someone identifies as a trans man, that would be someone who perhaps or who at birth was assigned a female gender or identified female gender and finds that they identify more with being a man, a trans woman would be the opposite. And a lot of people don't like those terms. And so they might use something more broad like gender non conforming or non binary.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So in the know, we're seeing viola by definition cross dressing. Right. So it's like she is putting on male clothes. She hasn't said anything that she's feeling like she is thinking of having an identity as a man or anything like that. So by a definition, using just like language, that's what she's doing. But in it, it expands this whole question of like well, and again, we're pretending to know her inner thoughts as viola. It's like, is she does she have some thoughts of maybe wanting to identify more with a male persona or does she feel more comfortable that way? Where does this go in the, like I think it's just really interesting because she can still know attracted to Duke, right. That has nothing to do with how you express your gender, but is know kind of throughout the end of the film exploring this, and does it feel good for her and is that something that then she might choose to do?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? And I personally don't think so. I don't think Viola is trans. I think that she had a goal in mind. She wanted to play soccer, and that is why she's doing this. It didn't seem like she was having confusion or what we might call gender dysphoria, which is a lot of distress about the gender you feel like you have to express. I didn't get that from her. I got that she just wanted to play soccer, but the whole time felt female. I think you could see that, like when she would slip back into her girl voice or these girl mannerisms and things like that. But I do agree that this film does open that up and it does show someone in adolescence exploring their gender. Now, again, what we know about people who identify as trans or non binary is that this starts really early, just like someone else walking around who identifies as cisgender and they say, like, I've always known I was a girl. These people have always known that this is where they fall. And it's even normal in toddlerhood, right, for boys to wear dresses or girls to pretend to be boys. This is normal as you're trying to figure it out. But then, typically, people who identify as trans keep wanting to if you're born of boy gender, you might want to play with dolls, you might want to dress up. That starts really early and tomboys start.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To not be enough. Right. This is why it's a spectrum experience. Exactly. So it's like you're kind of portraying a little bit more of a masculine expression and then that's not enough. Right. And you still are having kind of this gender dysphoria. You still feel distress, and then you kind of keep following along the spectrum until you land somewhere that feels good. Sometimes that is with surgery, and other times it's not.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? And I think it's really important that we also talk about that. These are real things, right? And this type of dysphoria that stems from a mismatch between your inner gender identity and the outer gender expression you've sort of been raised to abide by or is socially acceptable, is really significant. And it's been around forever. Like, this is just a thing. This is real. This has happened. And what we know is that trans youth and trans adults have significantly higher rates of mental health conditions, substance abuse conditions, and suicide compared to people who identify as cisgender. And I think that's really important that we talk about that because studies have shown that 40% 40%, that's almost half of transgender adults have attempted suicide in their lifetime, not just thought about it, but tried it, and that 30% of transgender youth have attempted suicide in the past year, that's huge. Those rates are so significantly higher for any other mental health condition that I can think of. And add to that if these transgender youth, for example, also, I mean, being transgender, you already are facing a lot of stress from being a minority, like in that way. But if you add other intersectional identities to this in terms of race, socioeconomic status, religion, family structure, poverty, like things like that, your rates just go up and up and up and up. And what we have found is that by providing gender affirming care, which again is a spectrum, right, it runs all the way from gender affirming psychotherapy to explore your feelings, to hormonal treatment and puberty, which again can be reversed. There's this big fear like, oh no, we're going to do something that is permanent and we can never fix it. The hormonal therapies basically stop puberty from happening. And so it gives a child who's experiencing this the chance to sit with it and really figure it out. And there are so many guidelines that you have to wait a certain amount of time. Someone has to live in their well, I think that's actually for surgery, but there's a lot of guidelines before you just do that, before you stop puberty. But then if this person sort of changes their mind down the road, which is incredibly rare, but does happen, it is easy to reverse and then sort of start puberty in the gender you were assigned at birth anyway, all the way to gender confirming surgeries, which, again, a lot of rules around qualifying for surgeries like that, at least in our state. You have to live in your gender identity for at least a year. You have to express that outwardly. And then you also have to have psychiatric evaluations and be cleared from a psychiatric standpoint by more than one physician. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through. And what are your thoughts about that, Portia? Do you think that's helpful or do you think that is kind of further stigmatizing or a barrier?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it really depends on the like I think it can be, I think I guess I'd say as a whole, I don't know. I think it can go either way. I think there's positive experiences where it's just like it is catching people, making a secure choice in something that they've always known. But surgery has risks and I think it's just to really prepare you for that. I guess we're kind of going, I'm going to bring up something totally different. But it's like if an 18 year old female would want to have their tubes tied, right? It's like if a 30 year old is coming to you and want to have their tubes tied, sure be done. But it's like, okay, we need to give you information. Do you know, because I'm actually unsure of permanent for the most part.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think there's some that you can.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Reverse, but yeah, some more permanent options. I think it's just important to educate, write the risks, if this is something that you really want to. So it's thoughtful and I think most of the time, again, it is like it's been years and decades of wanting or not feeling comfortable in the gender you were assigned at birth. So I guess, I don't know. I think in some cases it can be useful just to prepare yourself for a very significant surgery.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Just like any surgery, huge change.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. But I also do think there's absolutely aspects of it that can be super harmful. Like really navigating it with insurance, which I think if you are paying privately, I think it's a much quicker process. Right, so I think that's true. That's always just like something to throw in there, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: True, very true. And also, I think we know that people who identify as trans face so much stigma and violence. Like trans youth, trans adults are so much more likely to be victims of physical violence, assault, murder, things like that, than cisgender people.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Especially when they are presenting a gender and they're not passing. Right. That's the highest risk time for them. So you're asking them to stay in the year. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's the part where I'm like, oh, on the one hand, I get it. It's like you want to make sure you're sure. On the other hand, it really increases I think I don't know this for sure. I don't have the data to back it up, but I worry that it increases their risk of harm coming to them. And there is something just so stigmatizing about the system being like, well, you.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Have to really make sure that you're sure before we help you and offer.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You this care that's been shown to significantly decrease your risk of suicide. Again, I don't pretend to know all the answers or have a better system option in my mind, but I just think these are really complicated issues. And coming back to the movie, she's the man, we see her kind of dealing with that as she's trying to pass. Portia, can you define what passing means for our listeners?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Sure. So if somebody's passing, that means they appear, I'd say, I don't know, to 99% of people the gender that they're intending to pass as. So if somebody is making a transition from male to female, they look like a female. Like, you would never question it. And I also would just ask people to know that there's a lot of people that you don't know who are 100% passing and you're feeling safe with them. So it's like the people who are not passing yet who are coming in. And I'm thinking this is the big issue to a bathroom where you're still kind of looking like a guy, but you're dressed as. A female. That's where people get really scared and it feels but again, that's where the danger comes for them.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Not 100% you.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's just what the data says.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And again, the data says that people who identify as trans are not sexual deviants or aggressors or pedophiles or things like that. That's just not true. That's like an really unfortunate stigma and bias that just keeps getting perpetuated and.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All the way know. I think we've seen we see this date back centuries is like people performing, right? Like drag queens are going to shows where people are cross dressing like Shakespeare around forever. The idea that it is this harmful, right? Sexual deviant going to corrupt children is.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like this new thing ridiculous, right? And again, we see this in other animals too. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I do remember in college, in my animal behavior class with Professor Wasserman, learning about different species where the women would pretend to be men to protect their young and vice versa. So we see this in other species. We've seen this in humanity dating back centuries, like forever. This is just a thing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. So you brought up you before, right? Or was that in another so so getting back to she's the man worth noting that we see Malcolm, who's just kind of like this annoying guy, right, who's trying to figure out what's happening with Viola and Sebastian, like expose her. He is stalking Olivia. Like, he has pillows with her face.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Creepy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's always trying to talk to her. And I was just just just also keeping in mind, like, yeah, that seems silly in the movie, but it's not. Right. Stalking is the opposite of funny. It's the most terrifying experience. Per again, all the data to go through. So it's just like Malcolm is you're. Gross. Yeah, we don't like you.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But a little bit of stalking we see in this movie and then we see right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Olivia too.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So Olivia, initially we're introduced to her because Duke really likes her. And then she develops feelings for Sebastian. Sebastian played by Viola. Right. I thought that is so interesting for Olivia. Like, how does she feel knowing that she wanted to kiss and was really into a girl playing a guy, right. And then she ends up being with the real Sebastian.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I'm just curious about like that was just interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think that brings up a great point, again, Portia, that there is a difference between your gender identity and your sexual identity. Right? So we've talked about gender identity. Your sexual identity is who you feel attracted to. And that is under the umbrella of things like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual and again, I was like, is this movie a little homophobic? Like Amanda or Viola when she's playing Sebastian, wouldn't kiss the girls and stuff. Maybe she doesn't want to. Right. But I also thought it sort of did play off of that like you're saying. And it was interesting that it seemed like Olivia was attracted to the feminine aspects of Viola playing Sebastian's character, right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And not Duke, who presenting to outside people, is not that sensitive guy, but he is closed doors to other guys, right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So, again, it explores these themes of gender, sexuality, and just how you kind of express yourself and move through the world in a really interesting way. But again, if you are a trans person, that doesn't mean you are homosexual or bisexual. And so that is something important to keep in mind that you can be a trans man and still be attracted.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To whoever you are attracted to.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: They're not like mutually exclusive, one doesn't lead to the other or anything like that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And we see Amanda Bynes really come to life when she is at the carnival and performing the rapid gender changes, code switching in how she's talking and how she's walking. And it's just a being a good actor. And also I think it's part of the humor that they pulled from the play. Yes, the play. I think it's like carnivally. It's silly. It's again, it's supposed to give that gender ambiguity which I think is just interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Shakespeare's from a long time ago.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And can you again define code switching for our listeners?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So we also talk about code switching with people. Describe it as going to different groups of people. Right? So you might have a way that you speak at home and then when you're in a certain environment, like maybe work or like a classroom, you become kind of different. And you say words differently, you use different words, you carry yourself differently. I think I was more thinking of it or I've been aware of it more from black Americans kind of identifying their experience with being home and then being in a colleges are historically white places. So kind of having to adopt a white code when going to them to appear, right. Like the norm, which is like professional. You can be an educated black person in your home code, but in order to be perceived as educated in some of these other environments, you need to adopt the bigger code all the way.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: From what you wear to the way you do your hair to do you have tattoos or not, like all of those things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So we see in the movie where I don't want to say it necessarily gets wrong. I just think it's like the times and it's not them continuing to educate the masses, but right when they identify their gender by showing their body parts at the end. So it's like we see Sebastian pull his pants down. Which also that's I feel like we don't get arrested.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's indecent exposure.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And everyone's like, oh. And then they're all kind of joking because seemingly he has a large *****. Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It seems like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then we see Viola later on lift up her shirt to prove she's a girl.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So, again, even in the movie, they're mixing know, anatomical sex parts and your gender. I also thought the principal just like, calling out this issue in front of everyone. Weird stopping the game. There's title nine violations all over the place here, and that's just like, not the way you do it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's also just like a weirdo.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Remember when he's like, over identifying and assuming that Viola as Sebastian's experience is the same as his? Yeah, kind of crazy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did you recognize him?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, I did.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's in a lot of things, actually, when I clicked on his name. But I think I recognized him from Men in Black. He's in the first movie, I believe. And I used to really like that movie and I watched it a lot.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But I was like, how do I know this guy? Probably from then.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So, yeah, in general, I thought I wasn't expecting all of this. Like, when you said we should cover this movie, I was, huh. Okay, amanda bynes cool. It's a throwback. All right. But it really did bring up a lot of big themes about gender identity, sexual identity, girl versus boy. Why do we divide sports all the time? Just like all of these sort of gender archetypes really brought it out. And again, thinking that this movie is 20 years old, it's really interesting, again, that so many of these themes are still something we're trying to sort through in our culture today.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And really, I think it was just kind of dismissed probably as like a teen movie. But I think The Band of Buys, she was excellent in it, I think, based on the Shakespeare, twelveTH Night was excellent. I think I'm almost comparing it. And we're laughing because we also recorded Barbie on this day. And I think it's very similar to Barbie in some ways, right? Where I think, yes, of course the movie could have been better. It's also almost 20 years old. But I think that she didn't get the credit that she was owed for playing this role and for the writing. And again, I just think it's a really clever idea for a movie and people like me loved it.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And you were saying there's been a lot of discussion about it, even in the present day, where they're really sort of analyzing the gender roles and the way she portrays it, the way she's code switching, people are still talking about it. And so I think that is what makes art beautiful, is that it can provoke these feelings. These thoughts give you a means to discuss these bigger issues, especially when you might not agree with the person you're talking about it with. But it's like a maybe safe, neutral place to talk about it. And we're still talking about this stuff. So it was interesting.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So of know, I think it's worth saying we wish Amanda finds well. She's iconic and I selfishly would love to see her back in theater, but I don't know if that's good for her or know, who am I to say? But I love her. She was through my childhood and stay tuned. Maybe we'll do another one of her things, but thank you for listening today to our podcast. If you would like to follow us, you can follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts or TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast threads at Analyze scripts podcast, and you can check us out on our website to get more information or continue to search through some of our older episodes. They're great.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. All right, we'll see you next Monday.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited.

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Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are analyzing the '90s movie "Girl, Interrupted" based on the memoir by Susanna Kaysen. This film depicts two years of a young adult woman's life at McLean Hospital in the 1960s where she was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder (BPD). This episode analyzes everything from why it's so hard to talk about BPD, psychoanalytic vs behavioral treatment methods, the deinstitutionalization movement, antipsychotics, and our opinions about Angelina Jolie's portrayal of sociopathy. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. We get started with this episode. We just wanted to add a trigger warning. Some of this content could be disturbing to listen to. We're talking about the film Girl Interrupted, and there are some themes of suicide, disordered eating, and I would say institutional traumatization. So again, if any of these themes hit too close to home or could potentially be damaging, please feel free to skip this episode and join us again next time. Otherwise, enjoy. Hi, thanks for joining us. Today we are going to talk about the hit movie Girl Interrupted. A real blast from the past from my favorite decade, the 90s. This movie is based on the 1993 memoir by Susannah Casey, who wrote about two years of her life spent at McClain Hospital in the 1960s in Massachusetts, where she was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Portia so when I recommended we covered this movie, I totally didn't remember the plot. I don't actually know if I saw the whole thing. I was just like, oh yeah, there's a movie with Angelina Jolie and she got an Oscar and it's probably really good. I totally forgot that the main character was diagnosed with Bpd, which I actually think is great for us to talk about because we've alluded to this diagnosis and some of our other know, I'm thinking like, what about Bob Succession White Lotus? And I still find that this is a tricky diagnosis to talk about with patients to explain to patients to explain to other. I thought, you know, Winona Ryder's character like, did a great job being like, what is it? On the borderline of what? What are you talking about? Right?

[02:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And at the time, though, this was newish. Marsha Linehan hadn't written her book yet on DBT.

[02:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't even think there was DBT yet. Thinking about the 1960s, I thought this film did a great job depicting what it probably was like to be psychiatrically hospitalized in the 60s, which is so different from what it's like today. Place that is very true. So this film was filmed at Harrisburg State Hospital in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. It was filmed in 1999, but it was based on McLean Hospital, which is probably the number one psychiatric hospital in our country for a long time. I think it is affiliated with Harvard, and I think they do still have some longer term units like this, but you see a lot of treatment. You know, she goes to therapy many times a week. She's sitting on the couch. Her therapist is sitting behind her. Unfortunately falls asleep at one point, which I don't think actually happens in real life, but speaks to how she felt probably like there was a disconnect and you hear about how she's there for two years. That just doesn't happen anymore. But in the did, that was the treatment. People used to be admitted and stay for a really long time until in the mid 1960s, in the Reagan era, there was this big move not just in our country but internationally to deinstitutionalize patients, right? So sort of close down these long term hospitals which we called asylums and invest more in community mental health centers. And I think I don't know this for sure, but I believe that coincided with the invention of modern day antipsychotic medication like Thorazine and the other medications that came from that, like Haldol, basically medications that could treat schizophrenia and thereby treat these patients in a way that hopefully they didn't have to live in an institution. Sadly, we haven't invested enough in the community mental health centers that were supposed to be created to sort of support patients and we've had some really awful side effects from that. Primarily homelessness and institutionalization in jails. That is the number one provider of mental health treatment in our country. How awful and disgusting is that? And again, it's because not enough money goes into these community mental health centers. So nowadays you might be admitted for a couple of days to really stabilize you, tweak your meds, but you're not getting this type of intensive, insight oriented therapy anymore that we see depicted in this movie. And I think that's really sad. You can get that if you can pay for.

[05:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, it's wildly expensive.

[05:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wildly expensive. And I think some places, like other, you know, hospitals might take insurance. I don't know if insurance would cover it.

[05:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, they take some and especially for some programs. Like, I've had some people go to McLean, I've known some people to go to Silver Hills. Those two places over the years have definitely taken more of an insurance route for some of their programming and other tracks that they have. Other parts of their residences or programs are not insurance based.

[06:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think that also just speaks.

[06:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To like there's not a lot of people who can afford to be somewhere for a year and pay that. So I think they've also just had to do that where it's like some of their income is insurance based and others they are able to get private pay.

[06:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I would like to think that they would take insurance for more situations if insurance would freaking pay, right? But insurance is the worst. That's a whole nother tangent for another day. But they don't pay. They don't even pay know, short just it's really an abomination. Yeah. So anyway, getting back to the movie, we have an all star cast. So Winona Ryder is playing Susanna, the main character. We have Angelina Jolie playing Lisa, the woman with sociopathy. She won an Academy Award for this role. I think Winona Ryder did too. Or maybe she was nominated. I can't remember. We have Whoopi Goldberg playing Valerie, the nurse. Elizabeth Moss playing Polly, the girl who was a burned victim from childhood. Clea duvall is played. Georgina susanna's roommate.

[07:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she is in the show Veep.

[07:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: That I really love. I haven't seen it before, but I've heard really good.

[07:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, it's her. Yeah, I couldn't believe it.

[07:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then we had Brittany Murphy, who played Daisy. Who. That's just a tragic death and weird circumstances on its own. But I loved her, and I loved her roles in the then we had Jared Leto, who knew? Playing Toby.

[07:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was like, who? Before I looked at the cast list, I was like, who is that? Why does he look so familiar? I couldn't believe it. So young.

[07:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[07:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like a baby.

[07:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: They all look so young. And then we have Jeffrey Tambor playing Dr. Melvin Potts, her first psychiatrist. And then we see Vanessa Redgrave playing Dr. Wick, the female psychiatrist. And there's a lot of other characters too, but those are just some of the main heavy hitters.

[08:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[08:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: So what did you think, Portia, about the opening?

[08:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: A little confusing. I mean, I was like, Is this present know? And then I was confused because it starts with her in the hospital, right, getting her stomach pumped.

[08:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Then I think the very first thing is you see, like, a broken light bulb in a syringe, and the girl's like, in the psych hospital, and you're like, what's going on? And then it flashes.

[08:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So then she wakes up.

[08:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, okay.

[08:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So was that a flashback? Was that a memory? Is her stomach getting pumped real? I was confused with those two first scenes.

[08:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, totally. And I wonder I would imagine that was kind of intentional. And then we see her being pretty aggressively restrained. We see the tube down her throat, I think, pumping her stomach. And my first thought was, what did she overdose on? This looks like they're trying to treat her for an overdose. And then someone screams out, oh, she's a wristbanger. I was like, what does that mean? And she said something about, there's no bones in my hand. And I was like, what is going on here? But I think it did give a pretty good snapshot into her mental state at that point in time. I was like, okay, she's overdosed on something that's dangerous enough where they have to aggressively pump her stomach. Now, we can't wait. We have to hold her down before we even get a sedative in her. Maybe back then they didn't even really have sedatives. Honestly, I'm not sure when things like Adivan and stuff were invented. And that thing about not having bones in her hand made me think, is she psychotic? Is she not? What's going on? Then we see her lock eyes with that man in the hallway, who we later learn is, like, her dad's colleague who's married, and she's had some sort of sexual relationship with him. And then she's pretty quickly seeing a psychiatrist in his home. You see her looking out the door, seeing his family and looking out the window and seeing her mom unpacking a suitcase. And I was like, Uhoh, yeah.

[10:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And still does happen. But I think it was more common in the past with these kind of, like, voluntary, but involuntary getting someone to treatment. Right. So it's like, whether you're an adolescent, and it's not voluntary at all, and your parents are taking you there, so it's under their voluntary, but not telling them where they're going. So, hey, we're going to go for a car ride. They don't know their suitcases packed, and then we're taking you to treatment. Or the horror stories of those wilderness camps where you're, like, abducted in the middle of the night. I was kind of thinking of that with Susanna being an adult. Right. It's like, in my head, I'm like, at any time, she can kind of.

[10:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Back out of this. Well, can she? It turns out she couldn't. Right.

[10:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That was also my question was, why.

[10:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Was it different in the so I don't know the full rules, but I do know that a lot of things they depicted in terms of getting her to the hospital don't happen these days. So she's seeing this psychiatrist. So an old white man, by the way, and he doesn't do this anymore. He very readily volunteers that way to instill confidence in your patient. I thought he was very shaming. I didn't like the way he spoke to her. He was not connecting with her. It was very clear she was, like, a bother to him in that the way he was saying, like, I'm just doing this as a favor to your dad. Why are you doing this to everyone around you? I just thought it was awful. What a terrible way to treat someone who is just clearly attempted suicide, even if she's saying, I always just had a headache. I didn't mean to take that much. It's clear what was going on. And then he just puts her in a cab and trusts the cab driver to take her to the psychiatric hospital. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

[11:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's his responsibility.

[11:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: We 100% don't do that. If you need to send someone to the psychiatric hospital, hopefully you can talk with them and talk with their family and come up with a plan where they're on board. That's the ideal way, right, to sort of have their family bring them, and they're voluntarily seeking help. Sometimes people aren't willing to go and they need to go for their safety. And that's when, at least in the state of Connecticut, a psychiatrist can involuntarily hospitalize someone by signing what's called the Physician's Emergency Certificate or a PEC form. There's only two conditions in our state where you can basically take away someone's civil liberties by saying you have to be institutionalized against your will. That would be if you are an imminent threat to yourself or someone else. So in terms of like suicidality or homicidal threats or if you are so gravely disabled from your mental illness that there is fear of your being able to survive without immediate intervention. So people who unfortunately have something like a psychotic disorder, who aren't eating, who are harming themselves in some way but might not realize it like if they have diabetes and aren't taking their insulin, things like that. But it has to be really severe in order for you to be able to check that box. You can't check it for things like substance abuse. That's a different type of involuntary commitment and that one's really hard to get.

[13:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You can also send people involuntarily to the hospital just for the eval. You know what I mean? Like cops can do that.

[13:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're right. Sometimes people will voluntarily sign themselves in. Once you do that, though, you can't voluntarily sign yourself out. Usually the team does have to kind of be in agreement that you're ready to leave. If not, then they could petition the courts to then involuntarily commit you to sort of see out your treatment. But it's not like, for two years anymore.

[13:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So we learn later in the movie. But that Lisa has been there for eight years.

[13:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not surprising, right, given her personality pathology. And it seems like she frequently elopes, which is the fancy word to say.

[13:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You know, my question was just thinking about is she making herself known? Is she kind of coming back? Is she presenting in a hospital somewhere? Like, how are they finding her?

[14:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Are they finding her or is she finding them? Does she have some sort of tie of dependency to the institution that's been taking care of her? Because it seems like she's like the leader in some ways. Right. And I thought that I mean, what were your thoughts, Portia, of Angelina Jolie's depiction of Lisa with antisocial personality disorder?

[14:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was good because you can see how those people can kind of suck others in yes.

[14:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: That charming.

[14:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And appear really interesting and powerful and fun and light and it's almost like they know what you need. So she was all these things to different people.

[14:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And then knows also how to get under people's skin. Like we see with Daisy in a really sinister way.

[14:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yeah. Like horrific. I mean, I didn't really, I guess, get the flair of oh, my. Like, I really don't like her. She's horrible. Until that moment.

[15:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Right.

[15:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Until the because she doesn't let it go. It wasn't just like, oh, I kind of threw this out there. Maybe someone may do that. I'm thinking maybe who has, like, a borderline personality disorder. They're kind of pushing the limits a little bit, but take it that far is not typical, right?

[15:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I thought at first in seeing her on the screen, I thought she was depicting Bpd because she comes in very provocative. You can tell, like, the staff is all up in arms, right? Like, Nurse Valerie, played by Whoopi Goldberg, I think is helping Susanna settle in and then gets some kind of someone comes in, like, whispers in her ear, like and then you see all the staff is ah. Some of the patients there get really nervous, but then some of them are excited to see her again. I think that actually displayed the concept of splitting really well. That these types of patients tend to rile people up. And some people are on the good side, some are on the bad side. And then you pit them against each other.

[16:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Really manipulative.

[16:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really manipulative. And so at first, I thought that was the type of character she was portraying until the movie went on. And you'd see her get under people's skin and then not let go. And you could sense she got off on that. Even in the rolling chair when she steals the nurse's pen and has it at her throat with that sort of suicidal gesture. You got the sense they've done this before. You knew that this nurse had opened.

[16:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Up to her, which huge red flag.

[16:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Don't do that.

[16:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And also, though, it's like that is most likely to happen with that kind of a patient, 100%. They're really good at getting under your.

[16:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Skin and getting you to open up to feel safe and comfortable. This is how serial killers abduct people. This is how it happens. So I thought she did an amazing job portraying both sides of that. Like, both the charming, fun, playful nature that attracts people and then that sinister, manipulative, sadistic side.

[17:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, not being impacted by Daisy's death. So, like, Susanna is very appropriate reaction. And again, I'm saying this like, ha ha. But even someone with a personality disorder.

[17:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: It'S like, yeah, because she has appropriate.

[17:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Emotions that maybe are extreme. But like, wow, you see someone who a dead body, someone who's hanging very disturbing. And you have this emotional reaction because you're a human with you know, Lisa.

[17:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is not she takes her money and she goes I think, again, that was just such smart writing and depiction. I guess I was reading that didn't actually happen. Like, they didn't escape together. I was reading a little bit on Wikipedia about the author's take on this movie and I think she actually didn't love it. But there were some things that didn't actually happen like that scene. So whether it happened or not, I hope it didn't for daisy's Sake. But it was really smart writing to portray these two women who are both struggling psychiatrically, but with different personality flavors. And I think you do see some overlap between the Bpd and ASPD antisocial personality disorder, which, again, are all under the same cluster of personality development, like the provocative nature, the splitting, the intense mood swings, the all or nothing way of thinking and feeling and relating to people. But you see how antisocial personality disorder is different, right?

[18:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There's lacking empathy, there's lacking people with Bpd can relate to others. They do experience emotions appropriately and sometimes extreme. It's not a lack of in most cases, it's intense.

[18:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[18:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Too many emotions.

[18:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. It's a very intense emotions for the situation, but you still experience them. And they're not always, quote unquote, too intense. Sometimes they're totally accurate. But even, like, the scene with Susanna and Valerie where Susanna's in the bathtub, and she says awful things to thought. I don't know about you, but I felt like that was the scene where I really saw the Bpd side of Susanna. Kind of like until then, I was like, I don't really know if I buy that she has this diagnosis or if she's just, like, a struggling. Like, maybe it's a little too early to diagnose her with something like this, but then she really throws out, like, racial slurs, really derogatory things. Because I think Valerie was trying to connect with her. And I think for someone with Bpd, that feels very scary. Right. It's like you crave attachment, and you also fear it because you might lose it. So I felt like that was her trying to push her away in a really extreme way. And then later, though, you see that Susanna has a lot of remorse and guilt for what she said, whereas someone like Lisa would not. Daisy's character as well, is very you.

[20:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Know, I think there's a lot there. I think also, if we're going on what Lisa said is true, which sounded like her dad was molesting her for.

[20:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, like, no one else had kind of brought that up. And I do feel like people with sociopathic traits have this uncanny ability to sniff these things out and pull them out. Right. I don't know how, but they do. They can sense this stuff and pull it out and really dig at you. Yeah.

[20:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We didn't know that until that scene where she was kind of pushed over the edge. But she talked about being wealthy a lot. It seemed like she was abusing laxatives. They were kind of trading colase for Valium, which can happen at residential or inpatient places. That's why you're typically supposed to show your mouth. You lift your tongue, move it around to show that you're not tonguing meds.

[21:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Or cheeking them or throwing them up afterwards before they've been metabolized. Yeah.

[21:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So that's a part that's just I mean, it can happen, and it is.

[21:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: What it is, but it does happen.

[21:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The trading is just so unhelpful, right? Because it's like you don't know what drugs you're trading something for that then you're taking could be interacting with something else that your prescriber is giving you that they don't know that you're doing this. Very dangerous do not do thought. And maybe you can speak on this a little bit. It was interesting, which I know would never happen.

[21:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[21:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So before she's seen by a medical and I'm talking about Susannah before she's evaluated or sees any psychiatrist, she's already taking medication and they're giving her laxative. Why?

[21:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought they were giving her sleeping pill at first. Well, I guess they also give her choli. Right?

[21:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, anyway, but any medication.

[21:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So there were definitely, I would say, some positive elements of the movie about the way they depicted mental health treatment back at that time. As it was. It could be at these beautiful institutions where you would have, like, a nurse's station. Then the patients would have their rooms. There'd be a common area. There would be other rooms like the art room, the music room, stuff like that. I think even nowadays, at more residential type places, you try to have that stuff so that during the day, you're not just sitting around, there's some therapeutic intervention. Right. So that I thought was pretty positive and spot probably, I would imagine McLean still might kind of look like that. The things that I thought were not great was that, like you said, she didn't see a psychiatrist at all and she's already taking medication. Like, that doesn't happen nowadays, and she.

[22:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Wasn'T already on it.

[22:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. It's not like they were continuing what she was on. But even for that, if you're admitted to a psychiatric hospital and you get to the unit at 03:00 in the morning, there's a psychiatrist on staff who will at least come and do a physical exam. Listen to your heart, listen to your lungs, check your blood pressure.

[22:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You're getting labs.

[22:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're getting labs done. Maybe you need an EKG just because they might have hurts like a murmur or you're on a medication, they want to make sure that your heart is functioning okay, especially her, who just had a recent overdose. And then you go through like, do you have any allergies? What other medications do you take? Do you have any dietary preferences? Nowadays they also ask you what are your pronouns? All of this stuff happens the second you hit the floor. It doesn't wait till the morning. You might not meet your primary treater and get into the therapy side of things at 03:00 in the morning, but you would have that done, and you would talk about what medications they were going to prescribe or not and why and why. So I didn't like that. And you can't force anyone to take medication. That's the other thing that was inaccurate and made me upset, is like when susannah would express, like, I don't want to take this. You can't force them. That is totally coarse. If you can't do that, you need a court order to give anyone medication, which sometimes you do have to apply for, and sometimes it is granted. Like, if you have a patient with really severe chronic schizophrenia who needs their injectable antipsychotic to maintain wellness, that gets really tricky. But for stool softener, no one's forcing you to take a stool softener, okay? And like you said, they do like, tongue and cheek checks and make sure you are taking your medication. And they depicted that sometimes, but not all the time. But yeah, the chicken carcasses. What do you think about that? Interesting.

[24:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, it seemed like she does like, purge, right? So either laxative use or there was some alluding to maybe some binging, like some little bit of bulimia both at the unit and then when she was in her apartment. That made me think that again, I mean, I'm going very loosely making that diagnosis. I also would say that the other patient on the unit who appears to have anorexia, which the weird comment of she's like, yelling about wanting her clothes, and then the nurse says, then you'll have to eat something, does not happen.

[24:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Now you can't manipulate people to eat.

[24:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And also that's typically why there are now so many separate units. It's very unhelpful and doesn't happen frequently to have eating disorder patients within a general psych population. They are, I think, inpatient like, in a hospital can go to like a medical but even then there are very specific and I think there's really only like a couple in the country, but there's a Cute out west, and then there is Walden and McLean out east, where they have inpatient units specifically for that. Because I think it's so important for staff to be trained in a very specific way.

[25:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: I did think some of the stuff they portrayed, like not giving you your clothes until you eat doesn't happen. Other stuff, though, that they portrayed, like her exercising all the time on the unit, super accurate. And that's one of the things that the staff get trained in is like, being able to pick up these subtle ways of exercising in an attempt to burn calories and things like that.

[25:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, a lot of patients will share that if they are admitted into a general hospital and they do have primary ed, it's often like the worst time, which, again, is probably for many different reasons. One, they're so medically compromised. Two, this is like the beginning of the long road of often. Then maybe you're switching to an inpatient ed unit and then residential and then PHP and then IOP. There is some controversy in the community with the ethics around tube feeding. There's even more controversy within it if you are being tubed placing and pulling same day or for each meal to get you off the tube, they want you to eat, and typically you're tubed if you're really malnourished or if you're refusing. Again, I don't think they can make you without a court order, but they'll do that if you're refusing.

[26:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I think that gets really tricky. And it's probably when they call for a capacity evaluation where a psychiatrist I would believe a medical doctor could do it too. Medical doctor being like internal medicine, someone who's not a psychiatrist, but still a physician would evaluate, does this patient have the capacity to refuse meals when they're this malnourished? Or is that malnourishment causing impaired cognitive what is the ethical decision of like can you make this decision knowing it's going to hasten your death or not? I mean, that's probably a huge ethical.

[27:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And there was a case and the judge sided with the patient and the patient went on to die. They went into hospice. Just it's really horrible. Do not recommend. But these places are there for you because you are that know, you really need support. So anyway, Janet should be, I think, in a more specialized unit where she's getting meal coaching other than just being threatened or withholding other things.

[27:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[27:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think there were some eating disorder places around Renfrew's really old. They started in Philadelphia. They're all over now, but they're like the oldest big center for eating disorder. So if they were open then she should have been there. I think she probably would have gotten better care and more specialized care. So she should transfer if it opens soon.

[28:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, and I'm just thinking too, back in that time, in the mid sixty s, I feel like a lot of the treatment was still very psychoanalytic. Right. So I don't know how much about.

[28:16] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Your mother, let's lie down and talk about your mom.

[28:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: And as a psychodynamic, psychotherapist I so fully believe in, there's huge connections cases in certain instances. Right.

[28:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But we need meal coaching, we need behavioral treatment, which often is DBT, and we absolutely need but I will say, too, like at that level of care, it's really hard, I think, when you're also that malnourished to exactly do that.

[28:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what I was going to say. Right. Like at the right time for the right patients. I feel like back then and again, I don't know, I wasn't alive in the 60s, but I feel like that's what everyone got.

[28:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[28:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: And maybe that was like all we really had back then. We didn't really have the antipsychotics and stuff were just starting to come out. Maybe like CBT, DBT, these things, I don't think they were really out there yet. So yeah, I would imagine Janet was getting substandard care based on today's standards. And then it's like, well, I think Susannah was getting really good care based on today's standards. The difference in the comparison is really interesting.

[29:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I wanted to just if you haven't listened yet, check out our episode on Shutter Island. Because that was in, I think, around the same late fifty s the mid to early 50s. So that's not that far off from this movie. Maybe, though, ten years can make a difference. However, I think this is also, again, like a private institution versus a forensic state forensic unit. Right.

[29:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: But you're right, it's really interesting to sort of watch both of those and kind of compare and contrast them and they do get some of the historical points accurate. And I feel like back in the 60s, again, that was when a lot of these hospitals were being shut down in an effort to have people be treated in the community. Which again, is like, great, let's do it. But the money to actually do it, guys.

[30:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, totally. That's a huge problem. Anyway, there was a lot of other things wrong, like the orderly having oh.

[30:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: My God, sexual relations. Even like them allowing her to make out or have sex with her boyfriend. No, you're not letting when people come to visit you, you don't just get to go behind closed doors and have a conjugal visit.

[30:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like a therapy session or you're playing a game. It's out in the open visiting time.

[30:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's boundaries, especially for a patient like her. And how did the girls keep escaping and going to the basement all the time? There's people on staff overnight. The room check thing was accurate. You do come in and do checks at first, they are every 15 minutes. So I think that's really disruptive to your sleep. And we know how important sleep is to your mental health.

[30:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I've done checks. I only had to do one, thank goodness, because I'm not an overnighter gal. But when I worked at a residential, I did get mandated to stay once overnight. And having to do ten minute checks on a new patient, because typically when they're new, they're on the highest level of watch.

[31:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[31:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it just sucks, a, because I wasn't used to being on night shift, but yeah, it's really hard to do as an employee or as a mental health professional. And then also, I'm sure the patient didn't love it either, right.

[31:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because they're not just like opening the door to see if you're there. They have to make sure you're safe. Right. So if you're turned and facing the wall and sleeping, they have to shine the light in your eye, make sure not only are you breathing, but you're not hoarding some sort of weapon or things like that. So that actually was accurate. But then I was like, if they're doing the checks, there's no one in the hallways. That's just not how it happens. I don't think they would have been able to escape. I thought this scene with them all reading their files was fascinating. And to me, it kind of reminds me of like, nowadays when patients have access to their notes and stuff like that, and how that is interesting and I think different for someone reading their note from their primary care annual physical and their therapy work. Right. What were your thoughts about all that?

[32:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think we talked about this in another episode, but I'm going to bring it up again. You're supposed to write your note like there's a lawyer on one shoulder and the patient on the other. So I think though, with more electronic medical records and with more open chart things like we have my chart here, maybe that's international, maybe it's national. It's basically where you can log in, send a message to your provider, look at your lab work, et cetera, schedule appointments, also see the notes. And so there are some questions around is it helpful or not for that to be in the mental health world? And is there like a level of notes that should be shared versus not what's helpful?

[32:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: What do you think?

[32:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that patients should absolutely have access to treatment plans. I think that having access to all of your notes all the time, reading them on your own, is unhelpful. I totally agree. I think if you need to see the notes, you should be going over them with the provider so you can explain things. So if there's any questions or context, they can ask questions and not feel any kind. It shouldn't be negative. And they might be like, oh, well, what is that? What did that mean? And then you're there to explain exactly what that meant.

[33:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I think, though, kind of like these women reading their files, it can be jarring. I don't think I'd want to read my psychological assessment of myself by myself. I feel like that's like really I.

[33:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Think it's more damaging it can be.

[33:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think it can really damage the therapeutic alliance with your provider too, because not everything you're observing the patient's going to see and that's going to.

[33:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Be it might not be ready to see.

[33:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[33:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'll just say too, just for clarity, we're not talking **** about you in your notes, we're writing things from our perspective, from our professional perspective of what's happening. Sometimes maybe we're wrong too, interpreted something wrong. So it's really for documenting purposes, it's for billing.

[34:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[34:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And sometimes we might not do it perfectly. So I think that's I would lead.

[34:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: With that preference and I think with, again, notes and stuff like that being more and more open, I feel like they've just become less and less helpful. I guess you leave so much out and you just have to keep it in your head, right, that it's kind of unfortunate. I do find myself being like, well, if this person ever read this, how would they feel about this? And I do think that can go both ways. On the one hand, I think it can help you remain not compassionate, but help you stay in a neutral space. And a lot of times be mindful of your own unconscious biases and be like, well, why am I putting this word in? Does it really need to be there or not? And on the negative side, it can make you withhold things that really should be there, but you're worried about if they read it before they're ready, how is that going to affect them? How will that affect our therapeutic alliance and their future treatment? And is that worth it?

[35:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

[35:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is that potential negative effect worth it? It's real tricky.

[35:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It is. No, I totally agree. It's nuanced. I think most providers feel the same way we do.

[35:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I did think how interesting that this film, filmed decades ago, based on a time even further in the past, is still, like, on the pulse with something really active, like, in the mental health field presently. And I also thought it amazingly depicted how mental health providers really struggle to tell people their directly. It seems like none of these girls really knew, what am I here for? What am I being treated for? Some of them did. They were like, oh, Elisa, you're a sociopath. We all know know. But, like, Susanna being like, borderline personality disorder? What is that?

[36:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then when she's in her family therapy session, she's like, what is that? And apparently the doctor's been telling her parents, but not her.

[36:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? And she is an adult. This isn't like a 14 year old. And especially, I don't know about you, Portia, but I feel like in the mental health field, we tiptoe around this diagnosis, and so we're so hesitant to talk about it and share it with people. And why do you think that is?

[36:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think because societally, there are negative connotations with it. And I think that at least that's my discomfort sometimes. Versus I think the more we accurately diagnose people who have Borderline and talk about it, the better care they will get, because then we know the treatment plan and they can get better. We have more than people to participate in studies, there's more research. I think we really should be accurately diagnosing the disorder and also teaching clients about it and giving them education is, like, best practice. But I think in our society, like, Bpd has a lot of negative even I think it's even, like, joked about, you're crazy, and it's females. Obviously, we're careful of that, but I think ultimately, it does more damage, not sharing or being, for sure, hesitant. But again, diagnosing someone with a personality disorder does not happen immediately. One assessment, you're getting there with tons of data and information, and over time, it's like, you're probably there, right?

[37:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Let's just call it what it is, right? But yeah, I think that reminds me of, like, early on in the movie. I think it's in this scene when she's reading her file and she sees a cluster of diagnoses at the beginning. I can't remember what they were. Do you remember what they were. Yeah, they're not accurate today anymore. We call them different things now.

[38:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it says Psychoneurotic Depressive Reaction, personality Pattern Disturbance resistant, mixed type, and then undifferentiated schizophrenia.

[38:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Those were yeah. And then all of a sudden, at the bottom, it's like, final diagnosis borderline Personality disorder. So can you imagine? Again, it's like, okay, she's reading all these words. Like, even as a psychiatrist, I don't understand what those early diagnosis mean because we don't use them anymore. They're a lot of big words that are confusing. So it's really hard for her to make sense of, like, what does that mean? And she goes and grabs it, looks like a DSM or something, and starts reading about it and is, like, all up in arms. And I just think, what a sad way for her to find out and then to also hear it in the family therapy where her parents know before she knows, but we're all keeping it.

[38:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Quiet, like talk about it.

[38:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think I loved when she said borderline of what? Like, what does that mean? And, you know, the way I was taught to think about it and where I think the phrase comes from. And again, I will say I don't love that we call certain things personality disorders. I feel like even that phrase is really stigmatizing. I don't know of a better one, though.

[39:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So much of we find in patients who have borderline personality disorder, there typically is some sort of attachment trauma.

[39:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[39:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so I would love for there to be a more specific trauma diagnosis other than PTSD or complex PTSD that talks more about attachment and how that then impacts relationships. I think that would be so much more helpful, better fit for people to understand.

[39:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, 100%. And I think when we use the word borderline, I believe where it came from is, again, harkening back to those psychoanalytic days, which we see in this movie of thinking about what are the defense mechanisms different people with different illnesses tend to use to live with and cope with their illness. And when we think of people in broad strokes, we think of people falling into what we call, like, the neurotic realm of personality development. These are people with, like, anxiety disorders, OCD, things like that, eating disorders. And then we think on the other end of the spectrum are people with psychotic disorders who use different types of defense mechanisms that are disconnected from reality, whereas people with neurotic disorders are maybe like uber connected to reality or a little too in their head. Borderline falls in the middle, where you sort of display some neurotic defense mechanisms and some psychotic defense mechanisms that doesn't make sense to the average person. And even as I'm trying to explain it, it's really confusing. But these are patients she did say in the movie, which was accurate, with an unstable sense of self, unstable moods, like a lot of mood swings again, some safety concerns in the most severe cases, which we see with her right at the beginning. But, again, it's like what I also loved about this movie was when they captured her at this age because some of these personality traits, again, not the safety concerns, like, we'll put that over here on the side. But some of the other stuff, the big mood swings, the idealization devaluation, the splitting that is normal in development from when you're very young, like, born to as you're growing up into adolescence. And then as your brain matures and you mature, you're able to sort of hold on to good and bad feelings and thoughts simultaneously. But that takes time. It does. And so a lot of people are also really hesitant to make this diagnosis, I hope, in a teenager or young adult, until you really see these traits and these issues sort of being persistent and present across all different facets of someone's life and over a long period of time. Otherwise, it does raise the question of is this just quote, unquote, like normal adolescent angst, like the suicide attempt? No, but some of her questions to Dr. Wick, like, well, how many partners is promiscuous? And what is it for a man, like, totally trapped, right?

[42:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And for the time, just thinking of being in the think thinking of Susannah and then her mom, I would say probably very different expectations for how to behave. They talk the Vietnam War. There's a draft going on. So I think this is also just like, a very culturally changing time for so many behaviors might seem so unsafe besides the safety safety issues, like the promiscuity that they keep talking about to even the doctors, right? Because they're of that other generation as well, that maybe is having just more of that judgment or thinking it's more of a behavior than her. Just like right in the 60s as a young adult, like, expressing herself and her sexuality, right?

[43:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then it's like, well, yeah, and having sex with an older man who's married. Again, I felt like there was so much almost blame put on her. But it's like, what about him? Right?

[43:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The mom are there at the ice cream store for that scene, and that wife and daughter come in, and Susanna susanna's trying to kind of hide herself initially. And then the mom sees her, comes over and is like, It's her fault. And it's also like, okay, but of course, right, like, you're so you're not blaming the adult in the situation, your husband, who's and, you know, she's single, she's young. Of course it's her fault, right?

[43:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's all these assumptions and a lot of blame on her. But it's like, what about him? And taking advantage of a younger girl. And again, not saying that there aren't cases where maybe the younger girl is more of the instigator, I guess you could say. But still, I was like, I see her point here.

[43:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, and then he was continuing to want to follow up, and she remember at the beginning like, no. And kind of shuts the door on him. So even that felt like it was a little bit more on him, or else it was going to be more on him. But at the ice cream scene, I do think that that is when Susanna does kind of or Lisa's actions to kind of save Susanna is where Susanna does really align with her, and that's how that then, you know, then Lisa gets her trust on her.

[44:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think Lisa, with her sociopathic traits, can sniff out who's vulnerable. And I do think people with Bpd are vulnerable to attracting toxicity or finding themselves in these toxic relationships. Like, hearkening back to Tanya from White Lotus. As we're talking now, I'm wondering if that suicide attempt was somehow connected to that relationship with that man. Like if in some way she felt rejected and then attempted suicide. And if somehow, maybe the doctors knew that and we didn't quite hear that as a viewer. But that, to me would give more of more evidence for a true Bpd type of diagnosis where really the core inner wound and fear is related to attachment and feelings of abandonment or rejection are really hard to navigate, I think. As we wrap up, I wanted to just ask you, do you think Lisa would have actually been crying at the end? I did think her and the four point restraints were those are what restraints look like. Even these days, restraining someone is like the soul crushing thing that you have to do sometimes as a psychiatrist on inpatient units like this, when there's a real safety issue happening, we try to do it in the least restrictive way as possible. You do see another character earlier in the movie in a straitjacket. We really don't use those anymore, but what you saw depicted is what strait jackets looked like, and they were used back then. Do you think Lisa would have cried with Susanna's departure?

[45:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: If the tears were real, they would.

[45:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Have to be about she's.

[46:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[46:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think she's feeling sad to lose her friend. I think she's being manipulative. The tears are real about her to make Susanna feel bad for saying all those things. I think that is what it is. But I don't think a true sociopath is capable of having tears or really know if someone's coming or going. Right.

[46:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I also think, just like to add to Lisa is that the reason that we wanted to deinstitutionalize people is because you can become institutionalized, where you get used to living in a state like that, which I would also say you're around trauma a lot, and chaos. It's scary setting things. So I think that also, after eight years, I would imagine changes someone, and.

[46:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: You become dependent on the institution.

[46:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, why she's there, sure. But for her to be there for eight years, I think also must impact her everything. So I'm just curious, even just thinking about what has that done to her? That's why we like to keep people in the communities, in their communities. It is what's best when there are enough resources. So I think that's also just something to think about, like, how have the eight years been there for her, impacted her?

[47:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. It's kind of like what we see when people are in the criminal justice system for a long time, then they get released and they reoffend and come back. Sometimes they don't know how to survive anymore, like, outside of an institution like that.

[47:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All right, well, thanks for joining us today. We hope that you enjoyed today's episode. If you did, please feel free to rate the episode with five stars and then check us out on Instagram at Analyze Scripts and TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast. And we would love for you also to subscribe. We have gotten a little bit of a bump this week and we're really.

[47:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Excited about it, so we do see.

[47:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Every subscriber add on. It brings us joy. So if you'd like to participate in.

[47:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: That, feel free and spread the news. All right, see you next Monday.

[48:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Thanks.

[48:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Bye bye.

[48:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited.

[48:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine.

[48:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Don't.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are thrilled to analyze Greta Gerwig's BILLION DOLLAR HIT "Barbie." We analyze the film's smart, timely, and campy explorations of femininity and masculinity. We loved exploring Barbie's evolution through a developmental lens and decided that therapists are basically "weird Barbies" helping our patients grow into their most authentic selves. We loved the sprinkling in of so many dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT) principles, and the tender moments depicting evolving mother-daughter relationships. Plus, we could watch Ryan Gosling beach all day. We loved this movie and hope you enjoy this episode!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Furey, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Welcome back to another episode of a podcast hosted by Two Wise Trees. If you didn't catch that reference, we are obviously talking about the new Greta Gerwig film, Barbie. And that was a line in the film at one point, and I just chuckled. Know, we have a podcast now and we're covering it. And we went to the movies all for this. And it was just funny.

[01:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And we are two trees basically rooted.

[01:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Firmly into the ground.

[01:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Secure.

[01:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Secure. Stable. Nourishing. With our branches.

[01:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Fruitful.

[01:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Fruitful. Nice. With our branches just growing and blossoming into the sky where it takes us. I know it could have been a haiku. So anyway, we are really excited to talk about this film today. As it stands right now, we are filming or filming we are recording this episode in late July, and I checked the stats yesterday. Barbie has grossed already over $500 million worldwide.

[01:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's incredible.

[01:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Incredible. Especially because it's like double what Oppenheimer has grossed. We will also be covering that film a little later on. So that makes me really happy. Yeah, I was really excited when we went to the movies, Portia. And it was packed, packed, packed. Mostly women, but some men as well. And it was a matinee. We went at 01:00. And I just was like, see, Hollywood, you can make female driven material and you will still sell tickets.

[02:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Everyone was so excited. There was a ton of people wearing pink. It was just so fun. And I felt connected to people in theater.

[02:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, right?

[02:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which I feel like I've never well, I did when I saw the last Harry Potter.

[02:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was going to say Harry Potter.

[02:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Everyone was clapping, everyone dressed up. It was emotional.

[02:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was an experience. Right. And that's like the joy of going to the movies. And I think you had said to me that you hadn't seen a movie since before COVID and probably then two years before that. So long time. But totally, as you were saying that, it reminded me of when I would go see Harry Potter with my friends, like in high school and yeah, it was like a whole event. And this is totally what that felt like. We were a little bummed that there wasn't the Barbie box.

[03:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think it's because we weren't.

[03:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: In a major city.

[03:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Or even just like a big mega theater, because I know some people who went in another part of our state and they did have the box, but it was like a big complex, like.

[03:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Next to a mall, all that stuff. Yeah, well, it was still great.

[03:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was bummed. Sorry.

[03:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I did bring a couple of my daughter's Barbie dolls, which was an interesting thing to be carrying around as an adult woman. We went to lunch beforehand and we had them and it was just interesting, I'll put it that way. Content.

[03:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it was silly, but we were probably the youngest people at lunch by like 30 years.

[03:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, at a minimum. And I was just curious what they.

[04:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Were thinking 100%, because I don't think.

[04:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was on their radar that Barbie was coming up. Although maybe, but I don't think so. And then here I am, just slept around with some Barbie dolls in my purse and we're trying to take pictures of them with our drinks. And I did feel weird.

[04:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[04:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: But you tell me this is what content is and we're really trying, and you held them.

[04:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was like, yeah, it's fine. I'm not holding them.

[04:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: But they were cute.

[04:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's funny. So, first impact of the movie, what did you immediately think? Leaving it, just feeling wise?

[04:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my gosh. Well, I mean, I think I was so excited for this movie because I had a feeling it wasn't going to be like Stereotypical Barbie, right. Just because Greta Gerwig was attached. And I had a feeling it was going to be really smart and kind of meta. And that was what I was hoping for, was it would be a commentary on the female experience. And I felt like they totally delivered. I just loved the opening. I loved all of it. But I really loved The Know, where they show all the little girls playing old fashioned dolls and playing mommy and all this stuff. And then all of a sudden there's this big Barbie in her swimsuit and they just start smashing the **** out of these baby dolls. And I just was like, all right, I'm going to like this movie right away. It caught. I just I don't know. I thought it was so campy and funny, but also really know. I cried at the end when Ruth and Stereotypical Barbie were talking and like, wanted to become human, and they were talking all about the complicated human experience. And she said the thing about mothers, stand still so their daughters can see how far they've come. That's when it got me. So I just felt everything and I want to see it again. I already want to see it again.

[05:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought about it a lot after we left.

[06:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Me too.

[06:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I felt like all sorts of emotions, which I think was I wasn't expecting that. I thought it would be like touching, maybe, and silly. I thought I'd laugh and maybe cry. But I thought about it for the entire weekend. I do want to see it again and I was just really touched and really moved, thinking of different parts. I think that's also why I want to see it again, because I think I'll pick up on maybe some more things or some moments, some things that I didn't catch.

[06:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Yeah. I mean, I am astounded by the writing and the dialogue and how it is just so I feel like just really spot on in exploring the female know, by going from Barbie world to the real world, then back to Barbie world and just the way it sort of touches on the idea of feminism. And I was really surprised that they did such a good job because I think Barbie is so polarizing and they sort of addressed it in a really direct way, but then also just addressed the complex human experience that comes from being a woman in today's world. And I just thought especially right now in the political climate with the overturning of Roe versus Wade, it's just so great, I guess, to have something in your face on the screen that the masses are consuming. Right. I just really loved, you know, this.

[07:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Movie has been being worked on for years and so one of the things I thought was kind of funny was the Supreme Court justices all being female and then in real life, Supreme Court Justices making some decisions that would probably not happen in Barbie land.

[07:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. And just it was so the it was just so witty and humorous, but so spot on. And I just am always so impressed, know, writers, directors, actors can really do like I feel like that's really hard, but is like a really smart way of using a mature defense mechanism, humor, to explore really difficult, complex, gritty issues. Right. And so for them to be able to do that also in such a visually appealing, campy, fun way was just really smart. I feel like there will be college classes analyzing this movie.

[08:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I agree. That's a good so I noticed a little flavor of dialectical behavioral therapy in something that Greta Gerwig had said in an interview that she said about the movie. So I'm going to read it. I'm interested in how life is complicated and messy and that there is nothing that's either or either good or bad, but it's mostly both. It can be all these things at once. And I think that is a what you said before and kind of narrates the human experience.

[09:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[09:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like everything we feel, all these emotions, everyone will experience know, excitement. And it's like that was that end scene where she's like, you just have to feel and it's like everything it's so overwhelming, right.

[09:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And also just so overwhelming to see stereotypical Barbie or Margot Robbie's character, right. Main Barbie, see that evolution, right. From feeling just good at the beginning. Like in Barbie.

[09:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Everything's perfect.

[09:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Everything's perfect. And that's it. That's all, you know, to starting to realize something's off, like when her feet are flat, to becoming human and choosing that life. Right? Whereas initially, she wanted to go back to where things were just all good and everything was perfect. And then eventually she came to see, like, no, actually, I do want that richer experience. So as we were in the movie, I was jotting down some quotes because I'm a reporter, I guess you could say. And so some of these quotes that they said, I think, really speak to what you're saying. Portia when Margot Robbie said something like that felt achy but good. I think she was trying to describe crying and sadness. And at one point, she's and the release, the release of it, and she was I i just started crying. Like, first one tear came, then a whole lot came, I think, as people are trying to talk to her about what it's like to be human and she's really scared of change, I feel like, is everyone or just people with anxiety?

[10:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think everyone is.

[10:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think everyone. And then if you have an anxiety disorder that's probably a little higher or you might feel that a little more deeply, but at some point, someone says to her that's all life is, is change. And she says, that's terrifying. And I was like, whoa.

[10:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[10:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like but I just loved watching her evolution and becoming a human and that whole video montage of women and their children and just women over life. And I guess I was reading that comes from the casting crew. Those are all, like, home movies. How beautiful.

[11:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I've watched that scene, obviously, I guess, Pirated online, like, multiple times where she's crying.

[11:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have to emotionally prepare to rewatch it.

[11:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So like you've mentioned before, when Margot Robbie stereotypical Barbie is in Barbie land, at the beginning, it's all very happy, right? Like, Good morning, Barbie. Morning, Barbie.

[11:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Morning, Barbie.

[11:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, you know, everyone's smiling. Everything is working perfectly. The outfits are immaculate and stunning, and I want them all in my you know, you see her kind of getting up for the day, getting ready, going, everything's falling into place.

[11:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: I did love that there was, like, no water. There's nothing in her cup. It's just so funny. It's like she is the doll, right? And she's being played with. It's just, like, so funny.

[11:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, that's so true. Because later we right. Like, the milk goes sour, and then when she's in the real world, the water goes all over and she's like.

[11:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, I'm not used to anything coming out of that yet. When she was talking to Will Ferrell as the CEO of Mattel, that was funny. Yeah. But what was your thought from the get go of seeing all the Barbies?

[12:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It seemed really joyful and peaceful and like everyone's just saying what they think everyone's saying it in a kind way, but right when we see the scene in the Oval Office when somebody's complimenting someone else, they're not like, saying thank you or oh, no, that's not true. They're just saying, like, yeah, I worked hard, right.

[12:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: When the Barbie won the Nobel Priest prize, she was like, I deserve this. I thought that was really interesting, too. There's a lot of diversity in the cast in terms of race, nationality, skin color, body type. Less so with body type, but it was there. I loved midge. I loved how they did pull in these random Barbies from the past that probably none of us have heard of but really did exist. And they were so funny.

[12:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like midge, the pregnant Barbie, total tongue in cheek because they're like calling out themselves, which everyone who was on the film, including Will Ferrell, I think he was like, this looks like a great script, but Mattel's never going to let us do this, right? And they did, and it was so like, I think what a huge risk that paid off for Mattel to let them kind of be poked fun at. And ultimately, I think it really landed well for them. Right?

[13:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I just thought that was totally and so we had like midge, the pregnant Barbie, and they were like, oh, she didn't sell well.

[13:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Pregnant dolls are just weird.

[13:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then we had Alan played by.

[13:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Michael Stera, who just right.

[13:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: I guess it was like Ken's friend, who also didn't really sell well. But you see him just like popping in and out here and there and he's so funny.

[13:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There was a know, I think, hint maybe of that, like he could have been like a gay character. He also seemingly, at least throughout the film, it was very clear that he was like an ally to the Barbies. So I just thought that was clever. And I also just love his. I love Michael Cera.

[14:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[14:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So funny.

[14:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's so funny.

[14:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then I thought another risk that they kind of called out, but again, it landed in a really good way, was weird Barbie.

[14:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[14:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, like, weird Barbie had been played with really know, haircut dyed, which I think everyone can relate to Barbie.

[14:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was surprised there was only one weird Barbie and all these other normal Barbies, but again, I thought that was so funny and how they were able to start telling the story about how these Barbies are like being played with. There is this connection between Barbie land and the children playing with the Barbies in the real world.

[14:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. And Kate McKinnon's. Hilarious. I love that she's always stuck in splits, which again, you do that with your just I don't know how they got that so right. Of course, because people played with Barbies who wrote the Barbie movie. But that was the stuff that I was just laughing at and then them, like, whispering, like, weird barbie, like, you don't want to be like her, but if you were down, you have to go see her.

[14:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? So then they were kind of mean. Right? So in Barbie land, it's all, like, kind of perfect, but very superficial.

[15:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But if you're not perfect, then you're like othered.

[15:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I feel like isn't that the major criticism of Barbie? Right, that she has this unattainable body type and makes little girls feel bad about themselves? Right? Right. And so that sort of is already touching on that in a really smart way. And then when Margot Robbie's Barbie, she loses her high heel feet, they become flat, and she starts falling, and everything's starting to go wrong and she doesn't like it, then she has to go see Weird Barbie. And here I feel like if we really zoom out and think about Margot Robbie's development in this film as being parallel to the psychological development from childhood to adulthood I feel like when she first goes to see Weird Barbie and is presented with the two shoes, the stiletto or the birkenstock, which I thought was hilarious I feel like that is Toddlerhood. It's like one or the other, right? She can't integrate both yet whereas at the very end, when she's fully actualized and a full mature human, she's wearing pink birkenstocks, right? So it's like, even just this silly but concrete way of depicting incorporating both elements into your personality as Weird Barbie is trying to tell her, like, no, you got to pick the birkenstock and go to the real world. I felt like it was like negotiating with a toddler, like, presenting them with a choice, but there's really not a yep. And I was just like, this is perfect. We see her as being in the all good land, having some negative feelings. I died laughing. When they're like, at the dance party, she's like, do you guys ever think about dying? And everyone stops and she's like, oh, just kidding. But she's starting to dance or something. Yeah, it was so perfect. And then she doesn't know what to do with these negative things, so she has to go to Weird Barbie, who's giving her this choice, but it's not really a choice. And then she's on this quest to the real world. And I was just like, oh, my God. This fascinating.

[17:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's also why we can't ignore, right? Like, when things aren't going well, right? Ignore anxiety. You can't ignore poor family dynamics. You can't ignore a mood disorder brewing. Like, you have to kind of go see someone. I am Weird Barbie. You come see me. So are you. And we then sit in it with you. Sitting it with you. We go on this journey with you. It's so beautiful so that you can be well and then make a choice at the end that is authentic to you. Authentic. And then you are like, your best self, which means you experience all emotions. That doesn't mean that you're perfect and you're never sad.

[17:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. Or that you never feel anxiety again, or you never feel sadness again. 100%. And even thinking about that portia the journey to the real world, how they have to go in the little car and then on a spaceship in the camper, she goes in all of her Barbie vehicles. I thought that was so cute. But also, if we're staying with this theme, that we are the Weird Barbie. As the Therapist Barbie, you do go on a journey, right, to try to become your most authentic self, your most well self. Which, again, doesn't mean you never have bad days or episodic episodes of difficult feelings and stuff like that. But you do kind of go on this journey. What did you think of Ken in Barbie land initially?

[18:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So if the Barbies were one dimensional already in that land, like, the KENS are I don't even know, like zero one dimension, where are they?

[18:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Where do they live?

[18:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Where do they sleep at night? No one knows.

[18:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: No one cares.

[18:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No one knows. But I would say that I thought it was so funny how so much of what Barbie said impacted, you know, Ken number. Gosling.

[19:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really?

[19:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Really? It seems like, likes, loves I don't know, Barbie.

[19:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's unclear. Is it genuine, or does he just feel like that's what his role to play?

[19:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So she gives him some feedback, right? That's, like, positive. And he's like he lights right up.

[19:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's like, really? Wow.

[19:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: His whole day is made. His whole life is made. And then he tries to show off even more for her, which I think is also kind of like a real life thing. Sometimes we get a little over our heads trying to impress someone, like when.

[19:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: They'Re at the dance scene, but then all the KENS come in and start dancing, and he feels really threatened.

[19:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then the beach scene where he goes into the rock wave, and then all the Barbies come and they help him, and then he's fixed right away.

[19:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Which, again, it's like Barbie land.

[19:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You just snap their leg back into place, and they're know. Ken. Ken's were just like I was curious how they were going to fit in or how it was going to become more in depth or important to the story. It felt, like, really silly and just, again, kind of like flat, like no dimension, which I think is what Ken.

[20:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Brings to the table in original Barbie land. Right? He's just the sidekick I loved when I mean Gosh, Ryan Gosling, like, playing this. Like, I think we all love Ryan Gosling all the time, no matter what.

[20:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So listen to this. I heard on Hoda and Jenna, I was watching that yesterday, and they were kind of laughing because Ryan Gosling had initially, before the movie came out, gotten a lot of feedback for, like, you're too old to play. Not they were envisioning.

[20:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're not like the hot guy anymore, right?

[20:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Who played Austin Butler, who was Elvis Young. That guy. A guy who's in Euphoria who's like the hot guy, either of them. And it was funny because it was the first time that a guy had been called out publicly too old for a role. And how interesting is it in the movie Barbie? There's all these other themes. So anyway, though, they said, I think it landed really well, everyone who had said that was like, I was wrong and I think perfect.

[21:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: I also think those young guys I don't think could do it. I feel like you have to have the life experience and be able to wrap your head around it in a different way, to have been able to perform the role the way Ryan Gosling did. Which, again, was like, perfect comedic timing, but, like you said, had all these elements of tenderness and insecurity and codependency that just shine through despite the again, like, how do they put this together.

[21:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: In such a perfect all he says is, hi, Barbie. But you can just see his urgency for her to pay attention to him and him trying to catch her eye and bolstering his chest, all of that. Yes, I think someone could attempt to do. But Ryan Gosling just nailed it on the head.

[21:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? And again, the comedic side, but also the tender, authentic, insecure side at the same just I was so impressed. And he's like, so handsome. So that never hurts to objectify him since women have been objectified for decades and centuries and will continue to be. But that is a really interesting point. I hadn't read about that.

[22:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So he kind of goes along with her right, for the ride, which ironically, it was just interesting. If you're thinking he's codependent on her, of course he needs to go because he can't be alone in Barbieland without her.

[22:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? And I just have to address the scene where he wants to have a sleepover. He's like, well, boyfriend girlfriend, I should sleep over. And she's like, why? And then he's like, well, I don't know what we would do, actually. It's just so funny. And then I loved when she was like, but this is my dream house every night's girls night, so I'll see you tomorrow. Yeah. And then she goes into her dream house and they're all like, woohoo Barbie. And it's just like you get the sense it's like a sleepover every single night in Barbie land. And isn't there a part of you that would love yeah, right.

[22:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she does it in a way that it's like dismissing Ken, but it's kind and it's direct. And there's not all these millions of sorrys. And it's not mean. It's not like, no, I don't want you here. It's just like, I'm with my friends and I'm going to go now because this is my house, really firm. And I think when we see later in the movie. The Barbies are never mean cruel. Putting the KENS down intentionally. And then we see the KENS do that when Kendom comes to be that's a great point.

[23:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. She's, like, turning him down in a direct, assertive, but kind not aggressive way. She's just, like, speaking her truth. But he does take it really hard and feels really dismissed and brushed aside. And that comes up later in Kendall. Right. So that's just sort of this interesting dynamic. Right away, I did feel like he was really codependent on her, like he didn't have his own identity outside of her. It was always, like, trying to rise up and be good enough for her or feel like her equal. And I just think that's so funny because Barbie is about Barbie and Ken's just like the I guess there's, like that was in all the marketing. And it's just really funny because we.

[24:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All know at least I did, like, a million Barbies. I think I maybe had one.

[24:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe one ever. And I think maybe Ken had a little brother. I don't know. Then there's Alan. Who knew? Who knew?

[24:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I would love to have Alan now.

[24:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, me too.

[24:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I wonder if there I know there's I'm sure tons of Barbie collectors. I have a lot of Barbies in boxes still.

[24:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: You didn't bring them to the movies?

[24:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, it'd be huge. I think I got one every year for Christmas. They're all, like, the anniversary ones. You did not take them out of the box.

[24:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Big dresses. Yes.

[24:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so I'm wondering who has the Allen one? Is anyone out there?

[24:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: I bet it's worth a lot. Like, right now, I had one of those, too, that I did take out and give to my daughter.

[24:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, that's nice of you.

[24:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[24:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I'd probably be able to do, like I don't know.

[24:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: I guess I'll have to make that decision. Yeah. It was like the Christmas Barbie, I guess, in your defense, the box broke, so it was already open. It's a much easier choice.

[25:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But anyway, so when we get to the real world, which is where we all yes.

[25:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, they see the billboard of Miss Universe and Margot Robbie's like, oh, look, the Supreme Court justice is just like all of that stuff was so funny to me. And then when she's, like, looking for somewhere safe to land, and she's like, oh, construction site. That's where I'll find the women. And I was just like, oh, no, here we go. Here we right.

[25:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[25:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: And, like, right away, I wrote it down. They get there, and they're walking down. Where are they?

[25:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Roller skating. Roller skating.

[25:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: And the way they're able to bring in all the little Barbie props are so funny. And they're roller skating, and everyone's know Leering at Barbie, and she feel I feel ill at ease. And Ken goes, I feel admired, but not oggled. I was like, those two sentences speak to the difference of living in the world as a female versus living in the world as a white man, too.

[26:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's not right. It's not most of the time, overt. So I think that's where a lot of people who don't experience this have a harder time understanding, well, they didn't come up to you and slap your behind. It's like but you can feel people oggling you in an icky way.

[26:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[26:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And, yes, you could be like, yeah, of course this didn't happen directly to me. It wasn't over. But there's so much covert ickiness out there, and I think that that's what that moment really, for me encapsulated, because Ken just felt right, like, good and finally was yeah, exactly.

[26:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: She had started feeling, like, some complicated feelings in Barbie land, and now that just continues. And then there's like, what I'm sure will become the famous lines about the genitals, where she's just like, we have no genitals.

[27:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But why did she think to say that? Right?

[27:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Probably to disarm these oggling men, but she knew, push them away.

[27:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'm taking leaps here, but as this doll knew right away that that's what was being looked at, leared at, thought of.

[27:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: So then eventually, we see Barbie finally ends up at the school where Sasha, played by Ariana Greenblatt, is sort of having lunch with her friends. And leading up to that, we started to see some flashes of Sasha playing with her Barbies over the years. Right. And I think that was what weird barbie was trying to tell her is like, you have to go find this little girl and make it right. This little girl, the reason you're feeling these things is because that's what the child who's playing with you is feeling, and you have to go and make it right and come back to Barbie Lamb, put it all back to how it was. So she comes up to her at school, which I thought, first of all, there's going to be, like, a security guard, a metal detector, hopefully, at school these days, we can imagine this woman dressed like a pink cowgirl, barbie. Just like, walking up to you and Sasha being like, who is this woman with a delusional disorder that she's Barbie. Right? And Barbie just goes off into this monologue and, like, slings it right back at her and I think really delivers all the criticisms of Barbie through the years very quickly, in a succinct way. Right. And then we see, like, react to it and be like, what we didn't fix like I thought we did. I thought we showed women you could be whatever you want. You don't just have to be a mother and a wife, but if you want to do that, that's fine. But you can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer, you can get the Nobel Peace Prize, you can be a teacher, and then you're kind of huh. You're right. Yeah.

[28:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then Barbie starts to. Continue to be more and more emotional, right? Starts to cry, leaking, which made me think of, like, the grinch.

[28:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: What is um and then she's really upset. And during all of this, Ken is discovering the patriarchy at the school library, gets books on horses, and he sees all these men. He's, like, imitating their arm gestures and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, my God, this is hilarious. But I see where this is going, and this is perfect. And he's just discovering this whole new world where men rule. And he goes in, right, to all these different places of work. I was obviously struck when he's talking to the female doctor and is like, I need to do a surgery. Give me the tools. And she's like, you didn't go to medical school. You can't do that. And he's like, Show me the real doctor. Let me talk to the boss. And she's like, I'm the boss. And he just walks by her. And I was like, security. But oh, my God. Portia I'm sure you can imagine as a female physician, all the times you just get assumed you're not the doctor. And any man walking know, people look at with this reverence and authority automatically just because they're a man. It just spoke to that so perfectly.

[30:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I bet.

[30:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then he's like, going into the office building, and I want a high.

[30:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Paying position of power.

[30:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: And the guy's like, well, you don't have an MBA. You don't have a degree. We can't just give you that. And he's like, I thought this is the patriarchy. And he's like, well, yeah, but we just have to do it a little more fly these days.

[30:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought that was funny.

[30:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. And so then eventually we find that Mattel gets word that Barbie escaped, right? And then things are like, up in arms, and it turns out the other main character, America Ferrari's character, who's the mom, Gloria in the film. This is where we meet her. What did you think about her character?

[30:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I liked it. I didn't know where it was going at first. For some reason, I thought she was like a Barbie creator because she was drawing the sketches. It seems like maybe she was in more like of a secretarial position. And then we find out that she's the one who's connected to stereotypical Barbie memories. And then I loved that it kind of was showing us that scene again, all from her perspective. So now she's in it again.

[31:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought that was really sweet, and.

[31:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was sad because of her emotions, but it just spoke to the transitions of motherhood, I would imagine, right? From having a newborn where you're their lifeline continuing all the way up to an adolescent who's kind of pushing back and having more autonomy and pushing you away and rejecting you.

[31:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. That was really beautiful. And then we come to find that there's this parallel process going on between her existential crisis, raising an adolescent, and sort of trying to figure out who she is and where does she fit in now, and Barbie's existential crisis and that they're actually the ones that are connected. And it's almost like Barbie's starting to feel all the emotions the mom's feeling, and I guess kind of weird for, like, an adult woman to start playing with Barbies again, but makes sense for, I guess, the plot of the film.

[32:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, that's true, actually.

[32:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe that's kind of like me bringing Barbies to lunch and not really, but.

[32:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think she said that she was cleaning out the basement or something, and she found some and she kept it donated or throw it away.

[32:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay. And she's the one who's been drawing, like, Deaths Barbie, right. Like, what did she call it? Irresistible thoughts of death. Cellulite. Barbie depressed thoughts of cellulite.

[32:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which was interesting, which we didn't comment on, which was part of Weird Barbie's.

[32:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[32:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, push. He's like, well, if you choose the birkenstock and you fix this, you won't have cellulite.

[32:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And it's like, okay, fine. Now I'll go which, again, I think is a tongue in cheek sort of reference to Barbie's, like, perfect body and how that's so important to Barbie. Right.

[33:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So then Mattel is really upset that Barbie is in the real world. So why do you think that? Is? It because you do you think that Mattel, besides the obvious ways that they're being nefarious, is nefarious with kind of, like, the patriarchy? Did you get that vibe? I did, a little bit, 100%.

[33:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, they're all men, like, on the board, right? The only woman we see is Gloria, who does seem like a secretary. She's kept out of the big, important meetings that only the men can go to. I think when Barbie finally gets there, she's like, where's your boss? Let me meet her. Where is she? I can't wait to meet her. And they're like, well, I'm the boss. And I think they say, like, well, we did have one CEO, I think, like, a long time ago. Right. I loved that scene where she's like, well, who does the money? Me?

[33:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This man?

[33:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: And all of it is run by men. I, first of all, love Will Ferrell more than anything in the world, so anything he's in, I love it. And I thought he did a really good job. It's really funny, but yeah, they really wanted Barbie back in her box. I feel like that is just, again, not wanting Barbie to be more complicated than they want to see her and.

[34:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: In control of her.

[34:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: They want to be in control of her. And I do think one interesting sort of criticism I've been reading about this movie is, if you think about it right, like, yes, it's doing great in the box office. Lots of themes about feminism and the female experience. Again, still from a white woman's perspective, which I think it's important to acknowledge. And at the same time, Mattel is making so much money from doing this. They have all these other movies in development, like one about polypocket that's going to be directed by Lena Dunham, I.

[34:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Think, with Lily Collins.

[34:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yep. And so they have a ton of things in development that I'm sure are going to move ahead now that this was so successful. And there's been some criticisms, like, okay, so Mattel is this huge corporate giant, right? Like, how many female filmmakers have been trying to push forward stories and movies and ideas about the female experience, but no one wanted to listen until there's this big corporate company that's made all this money from a doll who's a stereotypical female, right. Only now we can listen to women and learn about the female experience. I don't know. I just think it's an interesting thing to think about, and I feel like it is a valid criticism. But then you kind of see that tension here. So I kind of agree with you, Portia, that I felt like the film as a whole did a good job addressing the tension about this Uber. Maybe not Uber, but this film really touching on difficult topics about feminism, using Barbie. But again, that's like, the whole point.

[35:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it would have flopped if.

[35:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Was.

[35:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Shown in a good, positive light in the you know, and I think one of the reasons that it's, like, based on what you're saying is because the movie, in an unironic way, slams Mattel. But I'm curious now. Okay, show me your board, Mattel.

[36:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. That's what I mean, right? It's like, is this are you the same board that we're seeing in the how exactly how much is art imitating life? Like, what is Mattel doing behind the scenes? What have they not I don't know. That's not common. Just but again, it raises a lot of interesting questions.

[36:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I got anxious when she was standing. She was like, happy to go back.

[36:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: In the put those little plastic ties.

[36:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She goes in the box. And again, those were so funny because that's how your Barbie comes, right? And they start twisting them, and it's getting tighter. See her hands? And she's like, something about this doesn't feel good anymore.

[36:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Good for ghetto. Ghetto good for you. Like staying in touch with your inner.

[37:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Authentic feelings Barbie and picking up on which is a female experience because of our life experiences. Having that third eye, right? Like being a woman. And something about that table over there is giving me weird vibes. Or having to cover your drink or having your key in your hand when you're walking to your car. It's like she started having zero ever experienced that in Barbieland to pick up on that. And I quickly that's just how I interpreted that scene.

[37:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I totally agree. And that she had the confidence to listen to that and not I think maybe because she came from Barbie land, where you are just confident and you're not apologizing for your feelings. They just are what they are. She didn't start invalidating herself, which I think a lot of women are socially conditioned to do. Right? Like, you might feel something's off, but then you're like, oh, I'm just being sensitive, or, that can't be. There's something wrong with me, when it's like, no, you're picking up on something accurate in your environment. So then she escapes and hijinks ensue and her and Gloria and Sasha go back to Barbie land and what do they see? Ken has already returned and taken over. The patriarchy is flying high.

[38:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Horses are everywhere.

[38:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love that they put TVs in every room of Barbie land with horses on them. And then this is like, oh, no, Barbie land is turned into the real world. Like, all the Barbies are being objectified and wearing really tight clothes and serving the men and brainwashed almost. Right. And it happened so quickly. And we see Barbie and Gloria and Sasha just like, dumbfounded. Right? And what did you think about Kendom?

[38:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was really in a silly way, like really know, like the TVs and just like their interest being so stereotypically, like know. Let's also say that there's many men who are wonderful and allies and not objectifying women and so on and so forth.

[39:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like Alan.

[39:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like Alan, but in the real world. But this was just like such a silly way of calling it out.

[39:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[39:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I loved the horses being the yes, but like and it wasn't like it could have been Ken's, and that would have been the same thing, right? Like, they replaced the Barbie, so it was like horses. It was like really and the hummers and everything's tricked out and lifted and so big. Yeah.

[39:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: And they got a mini fridge full of their snacks and they got the saloon doors. It was just so funny and over the top. But you just see how he just starts to really relate to Barbie in this icky way. And interestingly. I felt like he was still so co dependent on her, but now it was like the roles are reversed. Right. Like before, in original Barbie land, he just wanted her approval to feel good enough, and now he has to put her down to feel good enough. So it's still kind of the same dynamic, just like two different sides of the same coin.

[40:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And commenting on, I think, right. That idea of, oh, he's mean to.

[40:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: You because he likes you.

[40:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. So it's like we even see that when she's faking to go to the beach and have him play the guitar for her and he walks away.

[40:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[40:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's like, oh, maybe, or you're my what does he call her? You're my part time sometimes there whatever.

[40:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're my friend. Yes. And then you're like my long term low commitment girlfriend.

[40:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Low commitment. But he is excited, right? He goes away and he's like sublime. And that does happen even with, I think between both. Men can do it to women, women can do it to men, so on and so forth. Everyone does it to each other. It's like little games. It's like the gamey thing with dating, right? Like, I'm not going to text you for three days, which just it's hard because if someone's playing the game, it's hard to not but I think just no one should play the game. If you really like someone, text them when you get home. I had a great time, let's go out again. If you don't say, I think you.

[41:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Had a great time, but let's stay friends or something. And in that way, in original Barbie land, communication was more direct and innocent. And now things are getting all warped and topsy turvy, and then they decide they have to get all these Barbies back. And I was a little disappointed that it did involve, again, using themselves as sexual objects to kind of distract the KENS to turn them all against each other. I don't know what was your thoughts about that?

[41:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Definitely was like, icky. I wish there'd been a different right?

[41:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[41:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Why did they choose that way? Is it commenting on that? That's like currency, right? We talked about white lotus last week, and sex is currency. And that's where in now Kendom, like Barbie, you do have power. And we see that in the real world of but like, I'm wondering if it was intentionally supposed to be cringy, right?

[42:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, if it's like yeah, in the real world, that is your only power. Now Barbie is to use your body and your sexual power to distract them in order to have the vote and turn it back to Barbie land. That was the part I was like, oh, I wish they'd been able to get it back some other way.

[42:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[42:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I did love when they're all strumming their little guitars and I don't know the song that they picked.

[42:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I did.

[42:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: I recognize it, but I don't know.

[42:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The name of it.

[42:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know who sings it, but it was like, I want to push you around. And it's like aggressive if you think about, like, a man singing that to a woman. Right.

[42:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's not like a romantic song.

[42:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's aggressive.

[42:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Don't do that.

[42:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: But perfect for Kendom and all the horses.

[42:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So all the Barbies seem to be brainwashed and they get pulled out of it through Gloria, right. So Gloria has this monologue that she talks about, which I think resonated with a lot of people. We heard some, like, woohoo in the theater.

[43:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sure.

[43:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I thought that was nice. I did really like and we kind of made eye contact when she was talking about body image, and I really, really liked that because before right. They were kind of like I think, again, just pointing out not aging and not having cellulite before. And that's why kind of Barbie Land was like, oh, there's old people in the real world. What is you know, the woman then is like, you're beautiful. And she's like, I know.

[43:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I really like woman at the bus stop.

[43:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So one of the lines is you have to be thin, but not too thin. And you can never say you want to be thin. You have to say you want to be healthy, but you also have to be thin. It's just impossible thinking of every single person, really. Especially, I think, for women, the expectations of your body in the real world is just so hard to live with and so challenging.

[43:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[43:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the messages come early from Barbie, right?

[43:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[43:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And from TV and everything that's around you and from even parenting.

[44:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[44:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, a lot of if your parents are making comments about their bodies, even if they would never know their kids, it's all such a message that I think it's right. Like, you can't be too thin, but you can't be too fat and you can't talk about your weight if someone compliments you.

[44:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[44:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I'm fat and I'm feeling so bad about myself. You're fishing for those. No, you're fine. I think we could have explored that in a whole movie of its it.

[44:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know, it was necessary given, like you said, the criticisms about Barbie and her unattainable body type all along. And I was glad they didn't shy away from that. I was also glad in that monologue, which was so moving, that they also drew comparisons to just the female emotional experience.

[44:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[44:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, that is a female experience. You can't be to this or to that. You have to just be this version of a woman. And it's just an impossible standard. And why can't you just be angry or be sad or be anxious or be happy or be confident? Like you said in original Barbie Land, no one's apologizing and then they start to and I just feel like that so speaks to what it's like to be a woman. And it's annoying.

[45:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I liked you're supposed to stay pretty for men, but not so pretty that you tempt them too much or that you threaten other women because you're supposed to because of sisterhood. You're supposed to always stand out and always be grateful. It's impossible just going back and forth. But I think too, I just watched the documentary on Amazon. It came out a little while ago about the family that used to have a show, 18 kids and counting, or 20 kids and counting. And it's a lot of kids they talk a lot about, just like in a lot of religious organizations. Right. You have to be careful of your dress code so that you are not tempting men.

[45:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, I think that's even like in public school.

[45:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yeah, the straps and the shorts length, all that stuff. And it's just like, it's not our responsibility to make men feel like they don't want to sexual assault someone or keep your thoughts to yourself. We all we all should also they.

[46:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Should also learn how to manage those feelings. Right. It's okay, right? And girls are going to have those feelings about boys or other girls, too.

[46:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, you can think, wow, that person is attractive, and move on. And then if you feel bad about that, take that up with your God and be sorry for it. But it's not your fault. It's not that person's fault that you found them attractive.

[46:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[46:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Anyway, back to Barbie.

[46:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, I mean, I feel though I think we touched a little bit about this when we were covering you, which is like, all roads lead back to you because that's such a good show. But when we were talking about stalking and sexual harassment, oftentimes when women finally do seek help, they're often shamed or told, like, well, you kind of asked for it. Or I remember when I was in college, I had, I guess, a stalker. It was kind of weird. And I went to the student police, and their only advice was, when you go to class where that boy is in your class, you should wear really baggy clothes and don't wear makeup. And that was it. That was the advice to keep me safe. It wasn't like, oh, yeah, we should take this one out of your class. We should maybe move him to a different dorm, anything like that. It was like, you need to change your appearance. And so I think that perfectly speaks to what you're saying.

[47:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And again, it's just not that hard. We talked about consent in American Pie, that episode, and it's just really not that hard of an idea to come around. Someone might be into you at one point, and guess what? They might not be into you in another. And, like, you have to deal with that.

[47:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I loved that. With Barbie, it finally know as we come to the end of Know, the Barbies vote in Congress because they've distracted the boys and they get Barbie land back. But then at the end, Margot, Robbie's character wants to be human. She wants more than just Barbie. She wants to feel all those human experiences. She doesn't want to leave Gloria and Sasha. And she talks to the creator of Barbie, played by Ree Pearlman, who was just like, it was so sweet to hear her talk about and I loved how she was like, yeah, they had some tax evasion issues, but that's another movie. But just saying, like, are you sure you want to be human? Are you sure? And then it comes out when she tells Ken, I don't love you. I don't like you. You're a great person, but I don't feel that way toward you. And they could have an honest conversation about how he felt kind of rejected and dismissed and stuff like that, which was, I thought, great for a man character to be able to say right. To be honest about that in a direct, also respectful way, rather than the way he was treating her in Kendom, which was, like, icky and passive aggressive.

[48:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And demeaning and I think really contradicts the kind of general critique of a lot of people that I'm irritated with on the Internet, saying that Barbie is demasculating. And I think the end really does the opposite of that. Right.

[49:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: If you have an open mind. Right.

[49:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, to me, it's really clear she's apologizing for him feeling dismissed. So it's like, I see that we were maybe treating you like you felt like you didn't matter and like, you do, and I don't love you.

[49:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's okay. And both can be true.

[49:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I understand that people have a hard time opening their mind to different things, but just to me, it's like that scene contradicts their criticism of so, like, did you stay for the whole movie?

[49:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And also, I think it depends on your definition of masculinity, which, again, this film isn't only sort of addressing feminism and the female experience, although I feel like that's the main point, which is, you know, Ryan Gosling's depiction of Ken really touches on the themes of masculinity so well. And I feel like at the end, he comes to find that he can be sensitive and have those types of feelings and express them directly to someone who will listen and validate. Right. He doesn't have to be like a macho man like he was in Kendom. He can just be himself. And maybe he doesn't want his job to be beach. Okay?

[50:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe he wants to ride horses.

[50:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe. And that's what he says. He's like, I just really like the horses. But in that way, I think that is isn't that also part of masculinity? Can't our boys be sensitive and sweet and not feel like you have to lose all of that to be a man in today's society? I feel like that's another issue these days that they did touch on, I thought, in a really thoughtful way.

[50:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I agree. Yeah.

[50:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: And so at the end, Barbie chooses to become human, right. She assumes the name of the original creator of Barbie's daughter, which I thought was sweet. We see her get out of the car in her pink birkenstock, so she is fully, actualized, holding on to good and bad, conflicting all the parts of herself. All the parts of herself. It's so great. And we see her going in to sign in for something. What did you think she was going?

[51:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was a job interview.

[51:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought it was a driver's license.

[51:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay.

[51:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was the gynecologist. And I could not, because she now has a ******, an agency, an autonomy. And I was just like, perfect ending. I just died.

[51:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so unexpected that I think laughs you're like, what? I'm so funny.

[51:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: So funny, but perfect. She was so happy to be there, right? And again, I just think in today's political climate, great job, Greta Gerwig.

[51:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And everyone like, I am getting my womanhood taken care.

[51:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? So any final thoughts, Portia? As we wrap up this episode a.

[52:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Little bit, I just wanted to comment on the Depression Barbie commercial.

[52:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: How did we forget about depression, Barbie?

[52:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So many people on the Internet were like, why did they call me out? So we see. You know, loose terms on the Internet were binging on sweets. It wasn't really binging. It was eating sweets.

[52:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: It said an entire family sized starburst.

[52:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yep. And then watching reruns of BBC's Pride and Prejudice, and she was like, scrolling.

[52:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Instagram, looking at her estranged BFF's engagement photos. It was so funny. And then they were like, anxiety OCD and panic attack.

[52:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Barbie sold separately.

[52:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, that was funny. I loved it. And then Gloria finally at the end pitching to Mattel, like, what about just, like, average, like and then again, there's another beautiful monologue by American Ferrara about just, like, the experience of a woman. And I feel like that is she was, like, describing her own experience in a way. And again, Mattel was smart when at first they were like, oh, I don't know if that's going to go well. And then the finance guy's like, those sales will be huge. And they were like, okay, yeah. And I felt like that just also signified. Like, there's still a lot of room to go. We still have a lot of road to cover. But overall, I really loved it.

[53:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It gives you a lot to think about.

[53:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[53:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And take what you want from it. I think there's a lot of funny themes, and I think it's worth seeing more than once over time. And I'm excited to see it again. I mean, I'm wondering maybe there'll be more tears because I'm already primed, but we'll see.

[53:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was so good. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of Analyze Scripts. Please rate review and subscribe and share with your friends if you're enjoying our content. I did carry around two Barbies as a middle aged woman, so please make it worth it. Make it worth it. You can find us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts and on TikTok and Analyze Scripts podcast and on threads at Analyze Scripts podcast. And we will see you next Monday. Yep.

[54:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye bye.

[54:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, our summer party continues with "The Hangover." This 2009 comedy is the first of three and where we meet Doug, Alan, Phil, Stu and of course Mr. Chow. While the sound track is nostalgic, some of the jokes are a little *yikes.* We discuss Alan's behavior and social challenges as well as the abusive relationship between Stu and Melissa. Dr. Furey gives us the schoop on drugs and alcohol and we discuss serotonin syndrome. Sit back, grab some popcorn and your old "NOW" album from 2009. We hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Where two shrinks analyze the depiction of.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Your DSM Five, and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hi there. Welcome back to another episode of analyze scripts with Dr. Katrina fury and portia pendleton licensed clinical social worker. We are going to dissect an interesting throwback movie today, the Hangover.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You've been really excited about this one.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's from 2009, which is kind of a little bit nostalgic for both.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Of us, like, almost 15 years ago.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's hard to believe. It feels like just yesterday people were wearing Allen Halloween costumes with a baby and a baby beyond.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I went to Las Vegas in 2000, and maybe, like, eleven, and I have a picture with a street performer, model performer of being Alan, like, holding a baby.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Did you go there because of this movie?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I didn't. I went there with my in laws, so not for we actually went there for Thanksgiving.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, that's an interesting Thanksgiving destination.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, I like that. Yeah, it was totally different. It was hot. The food was delicious. We went to, like, brunch somewhere.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Was it like a buffet?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Brunch?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Vegas has a lot of those.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't think it was a buffet, but I think it was just, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: A nice just nice.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The only times I've been to Vegas were in childhood for dance competitions, like nationals. We went twice. So it's like, me, my family, my grandma was there both times, and we're just, like, trucking along. She's in her walker, and we did, like, children things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, we we I was just, you know, of age or a little, you know, a little bit after, but it was it was a pretty typical Vegas experience.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You know, unfortunately drank too much of the Kool Aid and felt so horrible.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like these characters.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like these characters. It was obviously a little bit more embarrassing because I wasn't there with friends.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, yeah, you're in love.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Fun story. I remember calling my mom because, of course, this is just how it goes. You tend to turn up the most the night before you have to go home. Don't do that, please. And so I remember there was a lot of vomiting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, God, Porsche. You love that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's my favorite thing. And I called my mom from the airport crying because I was so upset. I felt so horrible, and I was sick, and she was so mad at me. I guess as one would be of your daughter who's away with like well.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I guess back then they weren't your in laws yet, probably, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, it was like maybe two years in.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Was this like your first trip with them?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Second.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Was it your first holiday with them?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't think so. Okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But yeah, I wonder if they were testing you. Let's go to vegas and see what happened.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know if I passed or failed.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You know what?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I might have passed with flying colors.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She can really have a good time. But I actually was ill for two days after. I think it was pretty serious. Like we see in the movie and we should not do.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, we'll talk about a little bit.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I wonder if you got a roof feed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't think so.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I had memories. You were like, I remember every drop.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Of every drink, so don't do that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know I've never had like a typical vegas experience, but now with all these singers and stuff having residencies there.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know I always want to go.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And not really like I mean, I'm like old now, but it would be fun to like I don't know if it would be fun anymore to go to a club. I think I'd like to go and just people watch for a little bit and then go to sleep early in a really comfortable circle bed. That's my goal at this phase. But if vegas wants to sponsor us, caesar's palace, feel free.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The real caesar live here. So many good lines from the hangover. Like there's so many one liners, so.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Many zach galifinacus, was this like his first big movie? I feel like he probably did other.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Stuff before, but this is like memorable.

Dr. Katrina Furey: For me, for the general population. But he is so funny. Just like you said, like a lot of one liners. As he's saying it, I was like, oh, my god, I forgot about like, well, yeah, you can't ********** on a plane anymore since 911 or all of.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: A sudden him saying that he can't be within 2200ft of a school. Okay, is that from the masturbating on.

Dr. Katrina Furey: A plane or that would do it. Yeah, that very well could do it. But yeah. So many funny, funny lines. It is really funny.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So just kind of being a little bit nostalgic. It was released in 2009. We both kind of pre just sitting down now. We're like the music. There's so many good throwbacks.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. Like all the songs they picked, like the ti and rihanna song, a lot of kanye west songs. A lot of the music was so I loved at the end, the band at the wedding.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What song were they singing? Candy shop. Is that like a $0.50? But I just love how he's so into it and all up in the elderly people's space. I just love that sometimes. I love a good wedding movie like this. I was like, we should watch Bridesmaids sometime and talk about it. Totally. Some of them are just so good.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So we did want to kind of just add in that a lot of the comments also have not aged well.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And we do not support using slurs any kind.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, there's a lot of racism.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And ableism and homophobia. Phobia. Yeah, a lot. Like, really? Right in your face. Right from the jump. And I was like, oh, I don't think you could make this movie today.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm used to catching it on TV and seeing 20 minutes. Here they are laughing hysterically. And I think they do also edit some of this stuff on TV when it's shown.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, you mean you're used to catching the hangover on TV? Yes. Like on TBS or something. Where there's commercials. Yeah, for sure. I think they'd edit it out.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So watching it on Netflix, and we were excited because it was released to Netflix. I think they got all three of them. And so that's why we were like, let's do it. And then I was like, wow, okay, I'm taking some notes on it. And I'm, like, feeling a little uncomfortable.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. Yeah, 100%.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So that stuff we do not support, we will come out and say wholeheartedly yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So the movie, we were like, how do we even talk about this? We kind of wanted to just spend time on relationship and then like, substance use, drug use, just like some maybe like educational info on that. And then just like, obviously the hilarity of waking up and having a tiger.

Dr. Katrina Furey: In your I know, it's really, really funny. And I kept thinking, like, was this the one where Stu gets the tattoo? But I guess not. I guess that maybe is the second or third one.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was for a moment because Mike Tyson is in it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But I think that's like, maybe the next one.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe we'll have to watch it. Yeah. So to give a rundown of the characters, in case you haven't seen this movie in the past 15 years or so. So we have Doug, who is played by Justin Bartha. Is that his last name? I can't remember. He's like the groom who's set to be married. Side note, do people actually have bachelor parties that close to their wedding day? That seems like a terrible idea.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, not that I've ever been right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Usually it's months ahead. And I think this is why. This is like a cautionary. So we have he's going to be the groom. Then we have Alan, who's played by Zach Alfanakis, who is the brother of Tracy, I think is the bride's name. Oh, my God, he is so funny. I'm sure we'll talk more about him.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Then.

Dr. Katrina Furey: We have Bradley Cooper, looking beautiful. Such a snack, as they say in the role of Phil. I love that his name is Phil, too, but he's, like, really beautiful, and he's a teacher.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It makes it just funny, like, everything about him, his beauty, and then that's what he does. And then he seems like he doesn't really like his life, or so he says. Steals money from the kids, field trip.

Dr. Katrina Furey: To go to Vegas.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I don't know, at the end.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He was, like, super stoked to see.

Dr. Katrina Furey: His family, so that was nice. And then we have Stu, played by Ed Helms, who's hilarious. I thought he was so funny. I'd never seen him in anything before, the Hangover, and now I've seen him in a lot of different things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Tell me what he's been in since.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, Porsche. He voiced the particular role of The Lorax and the animated film The Lorax, which, again, you would not have seen.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I have seen many times. Yeah, I've seen the original.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There's an original lorax.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: From, like, childhood. It's like a cartoon. I mean, I've saw it when I was a child.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, but you haven't seen the modern day correct spin off, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And he sings, like, all the songs. Yeah, I've listened to them ad nauseam. And I choose that phrase deliberately.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I feel like I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And then we have Ken Jiang, who plays the role of what was his leslie. What was his last name? I don't remember Leslie.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He was just, like, a funny little.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What did you think of his character? Side note again, doing a lot of side notes this morning. He was originally training to be a physician. I don't know if he was a physician or if he then broke away and decided to pursue acting in comedy, but I always remembered that because I think this came out right as I was applying to medical school, and I was like, that's interesting.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I've seen a couple of his comedy specials.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh god. Netflix.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, they're hilarious. I think he's so funny, and I believe that he was like he went all the way through. I think he is like a medical doctor and was just, like, basically for.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Me, basically, he's in my music. I picked up a lot of racism with his character, which I wasn't loving.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, what else did he not in.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It for that long. Again, he's so funny. His comedy specials are hilarious, and he's been in way more since then.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think he wasn't in it long. But he was like a broke breakout star. And him jumping out his voice trunk of the car and just, like, all the little things he was saying were really funny. And then in one of the sequels, I think he has a much bigger role than the sequels, if I remember correctly. But so he's hilarious.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Mike Tyson makes Mike appearance, which is.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Hilarious random, but then it made sense. Like, oh, that's Mike Tyson's, tiger.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I really liked how the whole movie unfolded. How it starts with the wedding day and you see they're all disheveled, and you're like, oh, my God. And then the flashback is they're, like, trying to piece together their night.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I really liked that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So basically, you see them take the car, right? So Alan's father's car, he lets Doug take, which is a classic.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It looks beautiful.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And there's all these rules around. Don't let Alan don't have a tiger destroy the leather seats.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He forgot to mention that rule. Yeah, he didn't specify that rule.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Don't get T boned by people who are trying to kill you with guns.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Didn't specify that either. He didn't let Alan drive. Correct.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So we have to be really careful with directions we give.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's really important to communicate clearly, effectively and deliberately. Right. We talk about this all the time. We can't read mines.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right away.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We also see that Stu is lying to his partner.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What do you think of Melissa?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, she sounds abusive and best. Like, horrible.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Horrible.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I just loved I rewound and watched their first scene together twice and I could do it many times because it was so funny.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: She's like, don't forget the rogue.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Don't forget to use it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And just, like, the way she enunciates everything. And I loved her banks and her glasses and the way she would move away from him when he tried to give her a kiss. And just all the things. It was so funny to me.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then Stu just drops these little things on the trip that are just.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like everyone's like, what?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: What do you mean? You're not allowed to do this? Or like, she doesn't like this.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Or it's it's like pretending to talk to the proprietor. Bed and breakfast and napa.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And, like at the wine tour, when.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He'S like, I can't put my card down, she checks. All these things are like red flags for an abusive relationship. And I did think it was interesting to see it where the woman is the abuser and the man is, like, the victim in this domestic violence relationship. Because usually we see it depicted the other way. Again, it's a comedy. But they were, like, spot on with a lot of the things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think toxic relationships beget toxic relationships. So it's like, it starts off as these rules, right? But then there's lying, because you can't break a rule and then there's worse consequences because you lie. I mean, it snowballs down the hill and gets to this huge thing. But, yeah, I think everyone obviously doesn't like her. And then Phil reminds everybody that she went on vacation and had sex with Carnival Cruise Line.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Of course.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bartender.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: It is the bartender. At first he says bellhop, then it's bartender, then it's waiter. Then I just loved how throughout the movie, they kept calling him different things. And it was like, I don't know, I just thought that was funny.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And why was it okay?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Because she didn't because he didn't come inside her. That's what Stu said.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she was really drunk.

Dr. Katrina Furey: She's really drunk. Right. And then Phil's like, do you believe her? And there's the cashier in the convenience store that's just, like, listening yeah. Listening to this.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You can just tell that that's the logic Melissa had used to get out of this. Right. To not have any responsibility here. And he's sort of internalized it, and then he wants to propose to her, which, again, unfortunately, this grim runner ring that she had, the Holocaust. Oh, my gosh. But then I was like, you're going to propose at your friend's wedding? I didn't like that. No, I didn't like that. I loved that. He actually did get married to someone else instead, played by Heather Graham, the stripper who has a baby who they.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Then find didn't take care of in a very unsafe and oh, my God.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Every time they showed the baby, like, in the car, in a seatbelt, I was just, like, felt, like, uncomfortable.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And didn't Alan say he was like, oh, I've done this before.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And we were like, the first baby I found. The first baby I found.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All of these really concerning children stories of his. Right. Like, can't go into interview of a school. Oh, my God, baby before I know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What is up with Alan? The whole movie, even his dad at the beginning suggested, like, there's something wrong with him, but no one really specifies what is it or is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It not hard to know if it's, like, organic or if it's almost like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: An intellectual disability kind of thing or.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Learned or I don't know. Or like a little bit personality.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like kind of like Schizophel or Schizoid or something. Like in a cluster C realm. Yeah, 100%. He's hilarious. I feel like he carries the movie. He is so funny.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Never breaks character.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Never.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Always like deadpan face.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm always like, how did they film this and not crack up laughing?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I'm sure they did. I would love to see I love when they do that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Me, too. But how are they so straight faced? When he comes in, he's like, you ready to let the dogs out? And he's wearing his, like, wolf shirt and his his Indiana Jones natural.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I just love that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the speech that he gives. I love before they all do a shot of Jaeger.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I love it when he's like, how about that rider? I guess that's why they call it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm like, Is he on the spectrum? I don't know. But oh, God, he's so funny. He's so funny.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And he just adds exactly what the movie needed.

Dr. Katrina Furey: 100%.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He makes me think of well, this movie in general makes me think of, like, super bad. All those movies that kind of came out along the same time that are just almost the same group of comedians.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Or, like, Will Ferrell back writers. Oh, my God, it's so fun.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They're like bathroom humor.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it was. Humor is, like, putting it mildly.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like teenage humor, when you don't know better than to say horrible things.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But you're adult men. But again, I think this tracks for bachelor parties.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, I've never been to a bachelor party, but I'd imagine this might happen in a smaller way.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've heard through the grapevine that is the gossip line of bachelor parties that look exactly like this. Not in the sense of, like, there's maybe people with guns and a tiger, but going to Vegas and having strippers and also doing pretty nasty things that I would, as a partner, be very not okay with, and I just don't like that culture.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I was wondering, with Tracy, I felt so bad for her, and I was like, is she going to go through with the wedding? Right. I felt so bad if she's, like, waiting there to see if he's going to show up. I don't know if I'd go through with that. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That would be a huge red flag.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Huge red flag. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then her never communicating with him. It's not like something he went around the way there. Yeah, he's like, oh, I know we broke down, or, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, the alarm didn't go off, or something like that. It's just like, no, you were so irresponsible. Right. But also, then they did get drugged without their consent, to be quite honest.

Dr. Katrina Furey: To be fair. Right. Yeah, that was a twist. But then it turns out he thought he was slipping everyone ecstasy, which, again, not great. Still not great to do, like, without consent. But then turns out it's roofies, roofies all his friends, and that's why they can't remember anything.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I remember hearing that line over and over and over again of, like, why don't they call it Flories? Because you end up on the floor. Obviously. Super funny. But yeah, it's from the movie. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you mean you heard the line after the movie? And that finally cute, Stew, to realize, like, oh, he's on the roof. Oh, my God. And, like, when he when Alan is, like, doing the Blood Pact yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And they're like, what are you doing? Cutting himself on top of the roof. Like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I didn't love that. Like, the only black character was the drug dealer. Like, stuff like that. I'm just like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Besides Mike Tyson. But Mike Tyson That's true.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that's true. That's Mike Tyson. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the drug dealer's name, of course, is Doug. Right. So that's why they ended up getting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Confused and all the things.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I did think the plot was really funny. I liked all the twists and turns, but how they did, like, add up. And I loved at the end with the credits, how you saw all the photos that kind of explained it. At the end, I was like, okay.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You see Stu pulling out his tooth because so Stu is a dentist, which I think the joke throughout the whole thing is like, that he's a doctor, but he's a dentist. He's not really a doctor, I have to say.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay, so when I came to residency, our landlord was a dentist, which fine, I love dental professionals. I appreciate what they do for our oral health and everything, but he really wanted us to call each other doctor. Like, when we moved in, he was like, so I'm going to call you Dr. Fury, and you call me Dr. So and so. And it just was weird. I was just like, you could just call me Katrina.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So I don't know. I thought of him when I was watching.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think in that way there's like a little bit of, like a stereotype maybe, for a reason.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Even if there's one person. But I feel like I get that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Sometimes when people are like, oh, you're a psychiatrist. But I'm like, Well, I at least did go to medical school. Okay. But no, I really liked that when they were this is under doctor stew, whatever. Like, at the hotel.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then when they go to the hospital yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's like, HIPAA, HIPAA violation.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: HIPAA violation everywhere.

Dr. Katrina Furey: With, like, the old man.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They're just, like, in there performing an exam.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that would not happen. But yeah, when Sue's like, oh, let me read that. I'm a doctor, too, and then the actual doctor is like, you're a dentist. You told me over and over last night.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then he takes a bribe right, to give him a chart.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's really funny.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I like that actor, so I really enjoy the show Veep on HBO.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I always wanted to see that show.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's hilarious. It's such a good political, like, satire comedy. And so I don't even know his real name for being a person on the Earth. I know his name in Beep, which is Mike McClintock, and he's the press secretary. And he is so funny and all seven seasons. So I was like, oh, my gosh, there's Mike. Yeah, that's cool.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Before he was the doctor.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I love it. I love it's. So funny.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Let's talk about drugs a little bit. Okay, so they wanted to do ecstasy, or that was the I'm sorry, alan wanted them all to do ecstasy, which is more of a hallucinogen. Hallucinogen. It's typically not supposed to cause a blackout, like, if taken correctly, quote unquote.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like the biggest risk is, like, dehydration, right? Like, you dance a lot. It's like the love drug. And you sweat a lot, you get dehydrated, which can have, like, electrolyte issues, heart issues, seizures. But this is, like, what people do at Coachella. Yeah, I think I've never been to Coachella again, but I feel like that's yeah. Like, any rave or coke.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, it's it's pretty popular. Yeah. I think the biggest kind of consequence of ecstasy is just like when you're coming off it so you then are really going to crash serotonin and you.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Can feel really depressed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's worse for some than others, depending on your body, depending on how much you take, depending on how your serotonin levels are to begin with. So I know that that can be problematic for people because then sometimes there's like a compensation where you either want more or you might take another substance.

Dr. Katrina Furey: To feel better than ever. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And also, I think it's really risky if you take a serotonergic medication like an SSRI or an antidepressant that increases your serotonin and then you're doing this, you would run the risk of a really dangerous condition, serotonin syndrome, which is where you have way too much serotonin. So you're like, sweating. Your blood pressure is really high, your heart rate is really high. You have diarrhea, you're vomiting portion your favorite thing, but that can be life threatening. So I think that's another big risk of using these party drugs.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And also just like, if we're going to partake in a party drug, you really don't want to mix things. People who I think they're probably not Attic rave are typically only doing like, ecstasy or MDMA and there's waters there. And again, obviously there's risks because we don't know where it's coming from or what it's cut with, so on and so forth. However, I think people, if you're trying to be more responsible with it, you're not mixing substances.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That reminds me, I was giggling because I'm just, like, so naive in so many ways that I went to a Fish concert with my husband. I've been to a couple now, and at one of them, they were like, passing out water, and I was like, oh my God, that's so nice of Madison Square Garden to be just, like, passing out free water. They could charge like $10 a bottle here. And my husband just like, shook his.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Head, especially at a Fish concert.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but I was like, oh my God. I answered Steve. That thing?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. That's really great of you. That's sweet.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But that's also nice of them trying to help the public, I guess, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because they don't want ambulance lines taking people out. But again, and this is my own stereotype, I guess, I feel like there's certain artists or concerts where people are responsible drug takers, if that makes sense. Like, I would suspect at a Fish concert, you're a little bit older, you're not 16, typically going to a Fish concert.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Sometimes you are maybe with your dad.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: These people typically kind of know what they're doing.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, they've been around the box, like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Their 40th Fish concert. They have their outfit and they're just feeling good, swaying. And the stadiums or the arenas know that. So they provide water.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I was shocked. I was like, wow, this is really I am thirsty. It's so nice.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't think it was foam, but there was like a tour of Raves when I was in college that would kind of go around and they'd play music and have a lights show and a lot of people would take ecstasy or MDMA and go and it was almost school sponsored. You know how artists would come for spring concert or something like that? So there was one and I went and I don't think I'm as naive maybe as you. I don't like to take substances that I don't know exactly where they're coming from just because of my anxiety.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't think I could ever have a good time.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't like feeling out of control.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, shocking. So a lot of people I know were rolling and took something and just they had bottles and big buckets of water there. So I think it's a thing just to kind of reduce the risk and the liability at the concert. That's what it's about, I think.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: They don't want to get sued. And then I'm like but then it's like enabling this. And how do we feel about that as a society? I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, but mixing alcohol with anything is so much more dangerous. You know what I mean?

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's risky.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's not something that you really want to be doing. I think besides Rufalin being a drug that literally makes you black out scary, they are also drinking on it and it seems drinking excessively from the pictures and they're spotting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe they were doing cocaine, too. There were some pictures of Carrot Top doing some lines. I get another throwback. That's so funny. I wonder what he's up to today.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hopefully he's good, clean.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe he's listening.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What's up, Caratop? We did want to talk a little bit about date rape drugs of which Rufalin or GHB gamma hydroxybutyric acid is like, one of the most common ones. And then there's Rohipnol, which is another one. So these are like super dangerous, mostly because they're clear, so you can slip it in people's drinks. I think that's, again, how Alan did it. I think that's sort of what we remember from our college days of being really careful. Like, don't take a drink from a stranger. Don't leave your drink somewhere. And it is really dangerous and it happens still.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This is not something that has gone away.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Listen to any true crime podcast. You will find an episode about someone being drugged like this and taken advantage of. It's really scary.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think you might believe or have this dance of, like, it's not going to happen to me, or group of people are fine. And it's like you really don't know people.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like how this movie shows. Yeah. Like, none of them suspected. Alan would.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You can be at a party and know. 35 of the 40 people and one of the 35 that you know, can do it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's really scary.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Something that, you know, there's a lot of things that have come out about or like what am I trying to say? Like, somebody created a thing that you.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Can put over your dress and write.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, a scrunchie that then turns into.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, a little cat. That's what I was going to say. This stuff was not available when I was in college. But they have, like, test strips. There's a lot of stuff coming out on the market or that's already out, which I definitely think is helpful, maybe. I mean, for everyone to be mindful of, but I think especially women to just be mindful of. Never accept a drink from a stranger or like an open drink. It's just scary.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think the best thing that you can do is make sure that you are at a party or a bar with a friend and at least one a group of people is best.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And don't leave without each other.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There's no way you're leaving. Set the precedent at the beginning of the night. It doesn't matter. Like, oh, well, I want to go home with so and so. You can do that another time. You can meet up another time. But just like, not letting people leave alone or get left. I've heard stories of bartenders participating.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey: People.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So even if you're doing all the right things, it still can happen to you. So the real fail safe is having friends who you absolutely trust will get.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You out safe safely. Yeah, exactly. And getting things like a bottle of beer or a white claw or something you have to see them open is probably the safest thing. Too scary out there? Yeah, it is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And of course, the movie is a comedy, so it's going to make light of it and kind of joke about it. But obviously without this movie, it's not funny.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But again, a lot of the medical information was really accurate. The way they depicted them, like waking up with no memory super common. You totally don't remember anything. I think that's where it gets really scary is like when you wake up and your clothes are disheveled or you don't remember even when they were at the Er and the doctor was like, oh, I think you were raped last night. And they were like, oh, my God. Was I? Yeah. That's how scary these drugs are. You really have no memory. So some signs that you may have been roofied is if you start to feel like, really out of it, kind of dizzy, really sleepy. Like if you're worried about a friend or something that they might be a little stumbly, their speech might be slurred, they're just out of it in a way that seems different and I would say more pronounced than having too many drinks. It's really, like they said should be called a floor. You end up on the floor and then you can't move. Right. Some people might experience some psychotic symptoms, like hallucinations, seeing or hearing things that aren't there. It can affect your heart rate and blood pressure. It's really dangerous, but basically it does knock you out. You're breathing, but you're kind of unconscious, like you're just not with it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think it's good to know if you are kind of on the party scene, like how drinking affects you. You know what I mean? If you know, after one drink, three drinks, five drinks, this is how you typically feel and you were feeling very different, that's a bad sign.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think also typically with drinking, there's stages. You might feel a little bit of body relaxation, then you might be a little bit tipsy.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Things start to get a little fuzzy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Or you start to get a little more animated and loud. And then you might hit the drunk stage where a little bit more slurring, a little bit more out of control in whatever way it affects you. And then we see kind of people really out of control, whether you're passing out, whether you're falling, being I don't want to crazy, like just like running around and then kind of passing out. Right. Like slurring obviously happens early on.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And like, with a roofie, the timeline to passing out is like way quicker and more pronounced and more dramatic and it's less of the slurry giggly or irritable drunk person. It's more like, I don't feel very good. So, yeah, these are sort of the things to look out for and be mindful of with your friends.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think we talked about this when we went over the show. You Netflix with Joe Goldberg. We really got roofy to come.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We should just not be obviously don't roofy anyone. Duh. But also don't give your friends drugs without them knowing it because you think it's funny or like they're going to like it. It's actually like a crime.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it is a crime. Porsche it is. And also, like, you don't know. These are like middle aged men. Like, what if they're on heart medication, blood pressure medication? They could have stroked out or had a heart attack. But Alan, I don't think is all there. So he's not thinking about all this stuff. He just wants to have a good time with his buddies. I love that he was the one who ended up, like, winning all the money back.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know that he's this card shark, but again, it tracks. Kind of like a savant, right? Like having a really high level gift for me. It's kind of a little bit more spectrumy, almost.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. So I think when they're like, oh, he's not all there, and then we think, okay, so we came out in 2009. So how old would Alan have been in childhood? How much were we screening for these things? If we really think about it. It seems like he comes from a family of means, so they could have pursued whatever they needed, and there's just something off about him. But I think, again, that kind of tracks with this character. He does seem really intelligent in some ways, but then social cues are really hard for him to read. Right. Which tracks.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So another thing that we kind of see them go through is their experience with the police.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. When I was rewatching this with my husband, he was like, oh, my God.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I forgot about the fault scene.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I love sorry to interrupt. I'm just getting, like, really excited when they pull around the car for the Valley.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know, it's a cop car. And then, like, Phil is just living his best life, taking advantage of this moment, and then it's on the sidewalk telling all these people to move, commenting on this woman's *******. Meanwhile, they're like, everything that we're doing right now is literally a felony. Like, please pull over. Please stop. Stew is kind of panicking. They have the baby in the back, just, like, strapped in. Not in a car, not sitting there.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It was so funny. Yeah. And then I loved those two cops. I thought they were hilarious.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The man looked familiar.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He did. I think he's been in maybe, like, parks and river, like a show. Oh, my God, they were so funny.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So one of my favorite laugh out loud moments is when Alan gets tased and doesn't go down. And he's just, like, coming towards the kid still that he's, like, mad at because the kid gave him a bad look later. And so then the cop shoots him in the neck, and he's like, Sometimes these big guys need another charge. And then he was, like, down. And that's how they get out of their charge. They are tased in front of kids.

Dr. Katrina Furey: In front of children.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the kids do it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's so funny. Oh, my God. No. And that's when they all realize why they're there. And they're like, Wait, what? I didn't agree to be caged. It's so funny. It's such a funny movie. It is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I really enjoy it. It parts I didn't love.

Dr. Katrina Furey: All the fat shaming of Alan, all of that stuff. Yeah. You know?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But such also, like, I think just a depiction of the times.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You know, say, like, in 2009. That was cool. Yeah, that's fine. God, it's so funny. Bradley Cooper is just gorgeous.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I don't know what else to say.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Him and Matthew McConaughey. Sometimes I even get them confused. Yeah, they have a similar vibe. But I really do enjoy watching Bradley Cooper.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Both of them.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I will say it was really interesting. When I was watching the movie, there was a scene where Stu is, like, without his lateral incisor, which I love that he was like, My lateral incisor. And he's, like, singing at the piano.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I was like, oh, yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, I find you attractive right now.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know why.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Who has that same missing, too?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, okay.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, we all have a type.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Unclear. Yeah, apparently.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's fine.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That song is hilarious. I feel like I wrote down I don't think I wrote down exactly, but just like, it made me laugh. His rhyming.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think maybe it's like, what do.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Tigers dream of when they're taking a little snooze? And I was like, wow, you're a great pianist.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, wow, you're a real renaissance man dentist.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Who deserves a better partner.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I kind of did want to see and I can't remember in movies two and three, like, does Heather Graham's character come back?

Dr. Katrina Furey: No.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So he's with someone who's new. Yeah, totally new. The second movie is Stu getting married to a new person and they go.

Dr. Katrina Furey: To Thailand for his party.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Then he has the tattoo.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Watch that again. We have to just do a whole Hangover series. Yeah. I was really proud of him when.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He broke up with me, and I.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Was like, glad others witnessed it because she is so awful and mean to him and just puts him down.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then Alan kind of flirts. I was like, Are they going to get together?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Interesting. What did he say? He's like, what did he say? Like, I'm in school to be a dentist. Or he said something that was really funny.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She was like, Are you farting with me?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, gosh, she's so mean.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She's just like an ugly person on the inside.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He said that? And I was like, yeah, that's how you yes, that's true. Say you're a piece. So, yeah, I was glad when that relationship unraveled.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then we see Doug, he's like, burnt to a crisp. Everything hurts. Which I think most people have been in the sun too long, but you're not burned all day, like, on the road.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He must be dehydrated. Like, he needed fluid. Oh, my gosh. He needed some food. But yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, The Hangover is just like a funny throwback movie, I think. Take what you can from it. Like a silly story.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But again, despite being silly, despite some a lot of content that hasn't aged well, there were good depictions of some medical things, like getting roofied, toxic relationship dynamics, bro, friendship culture, sort of dynamics. And then maybe like Alan. Yeah, I thought there was a good depiction overall. And again, I don't know what to diagnose it with, if anything, maybe that's just him. But I am kind of leaning more toward maybe on this spectrum. Like, again, having some sort of Savanti type skill with math, it seems.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think that and the speech that was like the drive in, I think, to me kind of feels a little bit more like autism. I think so, too, but he's pretty high functioning through life just fine with all of his contacts.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. All right, well, thank you all for listening. We hope you enjoyed this little episode. Please feel free to rate, review, and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts. Send us an email, analyze [email protected], visit our website analysescripts.com, and let us know what you want to hear us talk about next. Yeah, and if you are, I guess, like Netflix or one of these wellness spas, you want to sponsor us, like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Shoot us a DM or an email?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, one of those things. We'll see where that goes. Yeah. All right, see you next time. Bye bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are analyzing "White Lotus" Season 2. In this season we follow Tanya and Greg to beautiful Sicily where the water is a dreamy blue and the passion red hot. This season has received 23 Emmy nominations and we think they deserve them all! We continue to analyze Tanya for a personality disorder, discuss the power and currency of sex, and talk all things complicated relationships. If you are missing this season come along with us to admire the clothing, food and of course their mental health. We hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And your DSM Five, and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. Today we are covering White Lotus, season two. I'm so excited. The scenery is beautiful. They're in Italy.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, my gosh.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I just want to be there.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You've been to Italy?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I have that part or a different no. So I think this is in Sicily.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I visited Naples and then Positano and Capri.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, wow. Oh. Was it like this?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was literally everything of the sort. Like, stunning, beautiful, incredible. The food I could write home about every day. Just the most beautiful, stunning place ever I've been.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I mean, that reads true in this series. It looks so beautiful.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I definitely want to go there. I noticed, too, in season one of White Lotus, right, there's a lot of cuts of the water, the waves crashing, that the water scene often either comes out of or into another scene of a person. It kind of fades into the scene of underwater or something. So I think that's like an interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And sometimes it would be like the waves are slowly, gently crashing. Other times, there's a big crash. And I feel like that was purposeful and sort of played into the scene or what's going on with the then, you know, spoiler alert. Tanya eventually dies in the water.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The water takes her.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: The water takes her. She almost made it. Like, I thought she was going to make it, and then she slips.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that was they said the writer director was commenting on how it was so important for him that Tanya did not die at the hands of someone else, that she still was kind of able like, she still was in charge even though she slipped and died, but he didn't want her being killed. Know the quote unquote gaze?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So let's just jump right in, I think, with Tanya. Yes. So we talked a little bit about our feelings toward her last time we recapped season one. We talked a lot about how she displays some traits and characteristics of borderline personality disorder and how the character talks about how her mother actually also had borderline personality disorder. Did you feel, Portia, like that was consistent in season two or I think so, yeah. What did you notice?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I think, again, her interpersonal experiences with both Greg with know, fun to see my name in the light, for one. She just seems to really be only thinking about. Right. So, like can't hear Portia. They were having a conversation. We were talking about this before the podcast. And it's like she almost like tunes her. It's kind of is talking over her. Just goes back to her. Right, right. She can't even hear Portia. I think she's asking for a day off to Albie.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, there was that scene where Portia was like, I know I'm kind of on the clock, but could I take the day and hang out with Albie? And she sort of tries to make a case for it, and there's like a pause. And then Tanya just keeps talking about her own issues. Like doesn't even acknowledge that Portia said anything. Almost like Portia didn't say anything. And I think that actually so tracks with people with cluster b traits, whether it's borderline narcissistic histrionic that the way they relate to other people is almost like other people in their lives are objects that are only there. To serve a purpose in relation to really? They can't see these people as their own independent humans who have their own wants and needs, who are both good and bad. Right, exactly. And so Tanya couldn't even hear it, didn't even register in her consciousness that Portia was asking for some distance from her. And I think that probably played into her intense fear of abandonment. And she just didn't even acknowledge it. I thought that was such a smartly written scene. And I wonder if the writers were really going for that, if they knew, or if that just happened, if that's just the way I'm interpreting it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I feel like it's got to be intentional just because it's so perfect, you know? And Greg also says to her at one point, I think at the beginning when he sees that Portia is there, they get into a fight and he says, you discard people. You drop people on a dime, you fire people. And then she calls him a full of ****, man. And then she says, I hate so. Like, I think that even their dynamic you see over the couple of episodes that he's there in Italy with her for, she's really easily know. She's really emotive. Which again, if someone was on vacation with me, like my partner, and all of a sudden they were like, oh yeah, I'm going to leave you for two days, I might have a reaction to that as well.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was unknown. So again, maybe that's why she brought Portia, because she had a feeling he was going to leave and she didn't want to be.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So my question is the ultimate kind of problem or issue, I guess I would say with Bpd is right, the fear of abandonment. And so is Tanya picking up on Greg's right like other relationship, his obviously very nefarious plan to have her murdered know, I think this is hard talking with clients. It's like, are you picking up on something that's real or not?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Or are you projecting such a difficult question?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That is such a hard question. I also think as a therapist, it's really hard when you only have your patient's perspective. I wonder if that's easier to pick up in couples or family work. But I think that's part of the therapy is learning where your own baggage ends and where the person you're interacting with begins. And that is almost like the definition of an interpersonal boundary which people with these personality disorders really struggle with. And we see that displayed so know throughout this series with Tanya. And I think you're totally like, at first when I was watching this, I thought Greg was upset Portia was there because he wanted to just be on vacation with her. Then I realized it's because he was planning to murder her and didn't want a witness. But yeah, why did she bring Portia? Like a why does she have an why? Um, but I wonder if she was picking up on, like, pulling like, we easily see that. We also easily saw that in season, like, from the yeah. And we talked about how, like, isn't a safe attachment figure for her, but that's probably what she's used to. So for her, that feels like it's, you know, and we just see how mean he is to her, like, with the macaroons. Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, totally.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So mean. He's just always putting her down, always criticizing her. It's just mean.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And in some points, I was like, it's interesting, Tanya's interpretation of that. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: She said to herself, like, oh, he.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Cares so much about me. That's why he's saying that. And it's like, no, he just said something mean to you. But then, on the other hand, she has a quote unquote inappropriate reaction to something that isn't that bad. So it's just like her it's skewed where and again, I'm a third party. I'm also a therapist. It's also a show, but I'm watching. I'm like, Tanya, you should have had a bigger reaction to him, like food shaming you and a lesser reaction over here, right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And a bigger reaction when you overhear him in the bathroom saying, like, I love you. I'll be there soon. And I know, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's what was just, like, interesting, confusing, and I think maybe difficult for someone who doesn't know or isn't thinking about her in terms of Bpd.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. But I also wonder if that is just, like, a really accurate portrayal of the inner world of someone with Bpd. She was saying at one point to Portia later on in the season, basically saying, like, Portia, you remind me a lot of me when I was younger, and you could see Portia, like, recoil inside, like, no, no, I don't want to be like you. But then she said to Portia, when you're empty inside and you have no direction, you'll end up in some crazy places, but you'll still be lost. I think she said that to her after Portia and Jack sort of, like, dined and ditched, and Portia was, like, sort of high off the thrill of that. And Tanya was like, Aaron, teeny balls are like a like, what are you doing with this guy? And I just thought that spoke to another core feature of borderline personality disorder, which is this pervasive inner sense of emptiness. And I think that's exactly what Tanya was speaking to. And I thought that was just, like, a really beautiful way to put words to a really difficult experience. And I just thought in general, we've really got a feel for the chaotic inner world of, like, in all of her big reactions, her small reactions, where you think they should have been bigger, and just kind of all of it. Like, her whole character, I thought, really just portrayed the inner emotional chaos people with Bpd often feel and how, again, that's in such discrepancy to also their inner emptiness. And that goes right back to that old sort of, like, splitting defense mechanism. Right. It's just fascinating and just really well written, really well portrayed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I think Tanya I wish that she could go on to season three. I know I'm definitely disappointed that she's not going to be, but also, I think that was intentional. This was the end of her story, and we'll see if there's some talks that maybe Portia is in season three.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I would love that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That was a cliffhanger. Like, what does she do with this? You know, is in this weird position of being scared and not sure if it was Tanya. Right. She learns from Albie that a guest was found dead in the water, and then there was this ship with all these gunshot weddings, and that's kind of all she knows.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I just think I hate I.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just how dare you?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: How dare you? Greg and I just feel like he's going to get off, like, he's going to inherit all the money. He just used everyone he used. Right. Like, we come to find that Greg was like, the cowboy from the past that Quinton was in love with. And it sounds like I didn't quite understand why Quentin felt such loyalty to Greg, but he's, like, doing his dirty work, I think for financial reasons, too. Like, Greg's like, I'll give you some of the money. It sounds like Quentin really needed it. He's kind of spent all his money, but he used that love from Quentin to get rid of his wife so he could get the money. And he also knew that Quentin and his friends could suck Tanya in, and she would quickly idealize them, which she does with everyone, and she did. And they knew how to make her feel exactly how to manipulate. I was like, is he trying to give her make the last week of her life the best ever. Like, even when they play out her fantasy in Italy on the Vespa, which I thought was hilarious, I was like, on the one hand, you're like, is that kind of nice? But then you know you're going to kill her, or is it just like you're getting even more over on her?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, and how do you do that as a person, right? Like, if we try to diagnose Greg, what does that even look like? I mean, you come into someone's life and have the gall to take their family money after being married to them for a year. It's just so gross. How do you think you can do that?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think he's, like a know, and I think he just is so and again, like, is looking and relating to Tanya as just like a means to an end for like, she's an object to him, and now he's ready to discard her and kill her. And I was just so sad that it took her so long to figure it out. And even as she is shooting the gays, as she calls them, she asks, is Greg having an affair? And again, it just speaks to that is the core fear of abandonment. Like her life is in danger, and she still wants that answer. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because that's more heartbreaking.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? It's just so heartbreaking because it's almost.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like the money isn't about her, but him cheating on her is about her.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. And her just being so rejected and unimportant, and yet he treats her as unimportant, and he rejects her all the time, and she's constantly coming back, wanting to feel good enough, and she's just not. Like, she'll never get that with him, but she doesn't have a secure sense of self enough to be able to walk away.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, totally. I think, too, there was some question of were we seeing more borderline traits with her or more histrionic traits, right, yeah. So histrionic just a little bit of background is in the same cluster as borderline. You experience discomfort when you're not the center of attention. You might engage in provocative or dramatic behavior. There's, like, mood swings, over the top, displays of emotion. So some of these sound, like, pretty in line with Bpd, seeking reassurance or validation. Extreme sensitivity to criticism. Impulsive behavior, easily influenced, but also, like, a lack of concern for others, which I think in some ways, Bpd, it's not a lack of concern of others due to being how do I say this? Because you want to. It's almost like you have deep concern for others. You are often just so stuck in your head about you because your emotions are so intense. A lot of people with Bpd have care. Loved ones do have great relationships, are often used or often vulnerable. So I think that was just, like, a little bit of a difference.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Where do you think Tanya falls?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think more in Bpd, especially just primarily because we know of her trauma history, and we know we think of her mom's diagnosis. There's less research with histrionic personality disorder, so maybe they also have strong connections to childhood attachment trauma, but the research is more so currently with Bpd.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And like you're saying, Portia, there's so much overlap. And that is why we sort of lump or think about personality development when we're trying to organize such a complicated, convoluted topic into more concrete ways of understanding it. We've sort of come up with these clusters, like these buckets of, like well, people with these types of personality traits tend to have one of these personality disorders, but often there's some overlap. So she very well could have traits of both. And sometimes some traits might be louder, others are softer. And it can go back and forth. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, someone I saw online, the main difference between histrionic and Bpd is that Bpd with I'm sorry, that histrionic personality disorder are motivated more by receiving and their desire for attention, while people with Bpd are more motivated by fear of abandonment and rejection. But I would ask, like, okay, but why do people with HPD need this desire for attention and different from narcissism? Exactly. So I think there's some questions that I have with HPD.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I feel like HPD we don't talk about as much. It doesn't get as much airtime, I guess, in the media or even clinically. Maybe we kind of leave it at like, oh, those are histrionic behaviors. Yeah, I would say. And then what.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Do we come from?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. And how is that different from someone with narcissistic traits also needing to be the center of attention? Or else they feel like nothing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Is that what's similar? And people with histrionic personality disorder just really act out in a more behavioral, attention seeking way?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It just feels unclear to me.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It does feel unclear, and it's murky. And again, I think it is unclear because personality development is so complicated, and sometimes this is just us trying to put words to such a complicated topic.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I agree. And some of the parts of thinking back to attachment trauma, childhood trauma, maybe, is when Tanya is having sex with Greg, right. And she says that she is disassociating.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Disassociating. I just want to put this out there. The word is dissociate. Dissociate. I hear so many dissociating. It is a tricky word with all the S's and C's, but I don't think it's disassociate. But I hear a lot of people say it that way. I don't know why. Maybe this is just splitting hairs, and I'm just being a snob, but I thought that was hilarious. Right. And again, so well written and perfect. Right. Like, her and Greg are finally having sex. She had come in in her beautiful lingerie, beautiful. Trying to get his attention after he'd really shamed her for all the macaroons. He's so mean to her and so dismissive. Like he's just constantly rejecting her. But finally he's like, okay, let's do it. And then as they're having sex, she freaks out, right, and pushes him away. Pushes him off of her. And he gets offended and annoyed. And she's like, I'm sorry. I was just disassociating. Do you remember what she was imagining in that moment?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, it kept, I thought, showing, like, one of those statues or those heads.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then she tells him she's like, this head was on you and then you were gone and you were right in my face. And he's just, like, looking at her like, she has three heads. And then he's I didn't I didn't get off. And she's like, okay. I was proud of her for know, getting him off.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Me too, Portia, because it was so interesting. Right. They're finally connected in a very physical, intimate, sexual way. And then she dissociates and pushes him away. And I wanted to be like that. Is your gut instinct telling you, Get away from him. He is dangerous, but she can't stay there too long. But she did stay there enough where she didn't just get right back to having sex. Which, again, I was proud of her for, but only further pushed him away.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What a fascinating scene. I would love to interview Mike White and just pick his brain and figure out how did he get these complex interpersonal dynamics depicted just so perfectly. I'm just now realizing also, his name is in the title White Lotus.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's funny.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Interesting.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So then we know around Tanya, Greg and Portia's kind of dynamic, we see.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Portia and Jack develop who's the alleged nephew of Quentin. And then we find them having sex. So we sort of come to find out he's not actually the nephew. He's also being used. That was sad to me. That was really sad. And to see that actor really portray the heartbreak when he was really drunk and talking to Portia near the end.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: How did you feel with all that? I thought it was really sad. My guesses are maybe that he was struggling either with contemplating suicide when Quentin came about him. Maybe some substance use, maybe being unhoused.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: He probably had his own trauma history.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Seems like he was in a really dark place. I mean, he says, then he cries. Which is so different from this character that Jack, the character, is portraying as this macho man who's very appealing to Portia after she has been having some fun with Albie, who we will cover. You know, Albie seems more like kind, soft spoken, very aware of using consent. And Portia is then all of a sudden very taken by Jack who kind of comes in and kisses her. And it's more like a little bit aggressive and hot and sexy to her. But we see this downside to it, which, again, is not typical. Typically, if someone's kind of like taking swept off your feet in that way, you don't end up in a murder plot. But know, I think just Jack's story was like it made me sad.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It made me sad too. I found him really obnoxious, and as soon as he came into the show, I was like, oh, no, Portia, you've been talking about how you want to make better decisions. Albie's right here. He seems really sweet, but you're noticing, like, he's not chaotic enough or bad enough. And then here comes this guy. And I was like, oh, no, she's totally going to go for him, and he's going to be such a bad choice. But I still feel like she's, like, young and learning these things and making these choices and mistakes, and it all.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Feels very appropriate, to be honest.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, this feels like kind of like appropriate development. I did find her costumes really interesting. I felt like she was such a great character that just embodies the early 20s person of today. I actually thought her dialogue with Albie on the pool chairs just about how struggling through COVID and how it affected her mental health. And now she's feeling lost. She doesn't know what to do for a job. She has this awful boss. I was like, this is all so accurate, and she's really putting good words to it. But then she's opening up a lot to him and dumping a lot on him, and he's, like, just listening. That didn't feel like a really equal relationship right away.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, maybe that was part of her discomfort, maybe after a while with Albie and then why Jack felt so good because he didn't know anything about her. Right? It was just purely physical. She hadn't shared anything emotional with him. It was just like, based off having sex and being hot and sexy and doing these wild things, and there was no nothing deeper emotional vulnerability.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And in that way, I kind of did find myself wondering, is Portia like, a younger version of Tanya? Is this sort of the development of something like Bpd or attachment? Like, she's opening up to Albie so quickly, but then pulls away so quickly? Is that more in line with a personality disorder brewing, or is this also just like, normal development and she's figuring it out and just like, what an interesting character. I felt like she some of her clothes I loved, and then some of them reminded me of limited two. And I think, again, that was probably intentional to just play up, like, how she's so childish and immature in some ways. But again, she's like a young person.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And they did intentionally include her talking right about COVID being alone. And I think we've seen both littles adults and really specifically, at least for me, adolescents, and how COVID and the social isolation and not being around your peers has impacted them. I see a lot of more immature behaviors that shouldn't be, quote, unquote, happening. So I think even so, if we picture her more as maybe like she's a little stunted 18 instead of maybe 22. I'm thinking, right when you get out of college, she feels more appropriate.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And again, like we talked about last time, we've talked about before, you can get psychologically stunted when a trauma has occurred and COVID is a trauma. We have all lived through this collective trauma, but it affects us all in different ways. And we are seeing just skyrocketing rates of youth and adolescent mental health issues also in adults, but I think especially in that population, it's huge. And that social isolation was a really big deal and it was a really scary time for people and for the youth. So I totally agree. I was really glad that they touched on that. I also thought it was interesting that I guess the first season of White Lotus was filmed in 2020, and that was partly why they were restricted to the resort. Remember? I was always like, why doesn't anyone go explore Hawai? And I'm like, oh. And then season two was still in COVID y times, but things were loosening up so they could film elsewhere and leave the resort a little more. And I was like, oh, that makes a lot of yeah, but that scene when Portia's like, starting to put together that something really bad is going on and then I couldn't tell if she was supposed to be killed too, and then Jack spares her or if he was just supposed to keep her away. What did you think of that?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's left intentionally kind of like, unclear. There was some talk of why didn't he kill her? And it was just more people were talking about it's not because he loves her at all. They developed this connection. It's just because of his character. He's not a murderer. Yes, he's capable of other things, but we saw how it feels like all this world that he's in is so destructive for him. And he's kind of holding the line at like, and I'm not a killer. He seemed torn for that know, he was angry, which I think, you know, coming off to Portia, which again is so like, he seemed scary. Yeah, he might kill, but like, I don't know, maybe there's some inner conflict at that, like, what to do? And then he drops her off right kind of near the airport and just go to the I thought, you know, that to me was like, he's a victim of his circumstances, but still has like a moral compass.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? Yeah. And I thought, did he end up having sex with Quentin to spare know? Was that happening all along? I bet it was happening all along, but he really seemed so distraught. And I really didn't know until he drove away if Portia was going to be okay until we saw her in the airport again. And I don't know if he knew. I don't know if he was supposed to bring her back or not, or if he was going to then get hurt because he didn't follow through with the plan, or I just really felt for him by the end. I found him really obnoxious at first, and then learning about his whole backstory, he's just so vulnerable and was just taken advantage of. It's so sad.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I mean, I think Portia's character, people like, I wouldn't say maybe loved, but some people had really big reactions to her. Didn't like her at all. Thought she was, like, the main villain.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Of the that I find shocking. Yeah. The main villain. Right. Like, whoa.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that's more and this know, my opinion. I would imagine that's probably coming from a little bit of an older commentator who's watching, because I think if you are a working with Gen Z or if you are in Gen Z, she feels really normal, feels so relatable. And I think she's actually not the villain. She's trying to find herself. She's, like, in Italy with her boss. She doesn't know what to do with. Like, it all makes sense. So she actually had come out with a quote, which I thought was interesting yeah. About commenting on people not liking her. And she said it. The one thing that I thought was actually kind of unfair and warped was the people who were saying that she was awful or that she was the real villain of the season. There's no way that you can look at that young woman and be like, she is the most awful one on this show. People who think that way should go to therapy. And I was like, or maybe just spend some time around the yeah, yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I totally so, you know, expanding out from know, we talked a little bit about Albie and just the stark difference between Albie versus Jack and how they were so different and how you sort of saw both cute.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, of course.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Both, like, physically know. But yeah, albie went to Stanford. He seems really modest. He humble, he's really sweet, sensitive, and it's like, you can tell she kind of wants to be attracted to that guy, but there's something missing for her, like that spark and that sexiness. And I think all people maybe can relate to that or I think a lot of people have felt that at different points in their life. Probably in their early 20s. Yeah. And then here comes Jack, and she's just, like, totally taken by him. What did you think of Albie's character?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought that he was so interesting in how season or episode one portrayed him. And then the final episode, episode seven, did. So it's like we learn that he is kind of stuck in the middle of this family dynamic, where he's often the moderator. He often, it seems like, also has power in the family. He can kind of go to mom or dad and make changes or make.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Them move things over.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, exactly. So he seems initially really sensitive, and I think he still is, but he's sensitive. He does not like what his dad, Dominic, is doing to his mom. It sounds like Dominic has chronic issues with cheating. Maybe some kind of sexual addiction. I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And the kids know at this point, it sounds like he has a sister who's not on the trip. The mom refused to come because of his dad's actions, but he came. And his grandfather oh, my God, what a character and what a stereotypical caricature of older man.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it seems like so Dominic has contacted Lucia prior to going, that was my interpretation. And then she meets up with them there know, Lucia is like a sex worker. And then we kind of go through all the stages of Lucia and Mia being with or a part of the evening for Albie, Dominic, and Burr, all in different ways. And then at the end right. So his arc from episode one to seven with Albie, it's like, we see Albie, Dominic, and Burr all kind of their heads turn as this attractive Italian woman is walking by in the airport. And I don't know. Would that have happened at episode one with Albie? I don't know for sure. For Burt and Dominic, burt is like this flirt ladies man.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: The scene where they're arriving, and the young receptionist walks him to the room, and he's flirting with her, and then he farts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Ever.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Just the look on his face, like, pretending it didn't.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the employee is so professional, she's just, like, ignoring it.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But he's so trying to hold on to his suaveness and his ladies man vibe, but then he's, like, farting and falling, and he's older. It's too much.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So I thought what I really liked hearing about this family was when Dominic challenges Bert about Bert's relationship with his wife, who is deceased, Dominic's mother, where Dominic knew that Bert was cheating on his mother. It seemed like she knew. And he kind of talked about her as like, she's either a martyr or she's like, I forget what. It like really resentful, like a bitter woman. And Bert seems so taken aback.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That his son. Yeah. And that's new.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All his experience or that he sees Bert's love of his life.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So Bert has this image of his wife, his deceased wife, who's like, that's everything to him. And then we learn of these actions that kind of say differently. It's interesting him being challenged on that.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And it's almost like speaks to Bert's own defensive reactions to keep all of that out of his consciousness and just think, like, wow, we have a great life, and, you know, my girlfriend's on the side, and no one's the wiser. And then Dominic's, like, really in his face, like, we all knew, and this was really hard. And then Dominic, though, is repeating it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And then in that generation, it's like everyone in the family still knows, but in an even more open way, know the earlier generation. And then we at first think Albie's not going to repeat it, and then the question for me is, does he or was he sort of taken advantage of by Lucia, right? Like, was he really developing strong feelings for her or not? What do you think?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. I think it could go either way, and I think the writers and they do that intentionally. They totally do that intentionally, because I think it could go 100% either way. I think also I'll be learning that Lucia is a sex worker. I think that then was where I see his path to go either way. He was either, okay, this is something that we do, and I care about.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You and accept that about you and sort of kind of love you, want to move forward with you, or then he's like, okay, I can use that to my advantage.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right? Is that what you're so I think, you know, albie still feels like the better choice than Jack, but I think that I don't know. I guess what happens in Italy stays, or does the question yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think, like, asking his dad for all that money and phrasing it as how did he phrase it, it's.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The least you could do, or think.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Of it as, like, retribution for all your prior actions. And they were both so manipulating each other that I found it really interesting, and that's when I thought albie really did care about Lucia, and they had that whole scene where her pimp is, like, following them, and she has to go with him, but then that's fake. Oh, was it? Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So then at the end, when it's showing, her and Mia, like, last five minutes of the movie, and they're walking down the street, they stop, and they kiss and hug her pimp who's working at some other place I think it was a friend.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Maybe that's her boyfriend.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it was a way to get more money. That's what I interpret it, because we saw him, and they were cheek to cheek, kissing, smiling.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that was the same person. Wow. Whoa. My mind is whoa, whoa because I kept wanting Lucia to, like she was fascinating. She was a fascinating character to me, too. If we want to move on to know the, like, the depiction of a sex worker, is that the politically correct way to sort of refer to her? Not it's not clear to me if that's legal or illegal in Italy, but you certainly saw all the shame coming from Valentina, the manager of the White Lotus. At first, you see Lucia talking to Mia about it in terms of sort of the way they both view money and sex. I just thought it was really fascinating. What was your take?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it seemed also like Lucia at times, though, was really ashamed of what she was doing. She didn't want Mia to be a part of it. And then there were times where she's like, I don't like this feels not okay. And other times where she felt like, really manipulated and also in charge, right? Like, she was manipulating these men to make a lot of money. I was like, wow, get your bag, girl.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's a lot. But then I thought she just wanted to make enough money to get out and open her own store. But then by the end, I wasn't sure if that's really true or if she's just happy and fine doing this job right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I would have liked to know. And again, it seems up for interpretation. Like, as her and Mia, I thought that after I saw that that was not her pimp, I thought that she was going to show. Like, this is the store I bought with the money from Albie because they didn't I was this is this something that she does frequently. And it wasn't this one time opportunity with Albie to get this huge amount of money. So then I was like, I don't know. Again, I think it's ambiguous on purpose.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Exactly, and I think they do that on purpose, ending with them strolling down the street, looking in the windows, but not being like, okay, this is the store I bought, and now I can have this new life. And again, I think that speaks to just the strong feelings. The whole concept of sex work, I think, stirs up in everyone, and it's so different for everyone. And I think it perhaps is also different culturally. Like, I'd imagine there's some cultures where it's more accepted than it is in our American culture. And I thought Lucia's influence over Mia was also really interesting. Right. On the one hand, she's, like, bringing Mia along at the beginning, and Mia's, like, not really wanting to, and she's pushing her she's kind of pushing her to like, let's go have a threesome. Like, come on, come on. And then when Mia starts to participate with the original pianist, and then eventually with Valentina and sees like, oh, I can know sex as currency, know, use that power to my advantage to get what I want in the world. I feel like Lucia has mixed feelings about it, kind of.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, I thought that was an interesting dynamic, the two of them, because as I thought initially, like, Lucia seems like she's getting out, mia's getting in. Yeah, but then I think they both were.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But it seems like kind of they want to be. I think it was sort of like thinking, like, oh, poor Lucia. She has this pimp. She can't get out no matter how much she wants to, but maybe not. Like, maybe she is fine with it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And is that the intent, right, to have this question in your mind when you finish of, like, this isn't a clear cut visual of sex work in a really vulnerable way. It's more like they're in charge of it, and they actually got some nice things. Mia, her music career. She gets to sing here, it seems like, too. At least they showed besides the pianist. And I think that was also just like Mia's discomfort, maybe because it was like the first time she was doing something like that. But all of the experiences seemed consensual.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And like, gross or where they're feeling or being portrayed as like a victim. They seem very much in charge. And I think that's even more clear when I think you learn that that's not her pimp.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes, I agree. I totally agree. And I'm sure all of that was intentional. And it does stir up important, I think, questions. And then also with Mia and Valentina. I loved the character of Valentina. I loved how quick witted and strong she was. I loved her initial commentary when everyone's getting off the boat and she's saying to Bert, like, well, you're so old, right, but you're like just some of the things she would say was so funny. But wow, it really turned it on its head. Right. Because you really saw how she was shaming Lucia and Mia at the beginning, throwing them out, like just being so derogatory toward them, treating them like they're subhuman, which, again, I think a lot of people in the sex work industry, that's probably how they're treated. Right. But then by the end, it's like Valentina's a willing participant. And Mia is it's like, in some ways was that kind of beautiful that Mia was finally helping, like, explore her sexuality, which had been so repressed and unsafe for her to explore? That actually seems like take the sex work out. That seems like a beautiful way for someone to explore their sexuality, finally righteous. I don't know. It stirs up a lot of mixed feelings for me. It does.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think also interestingly, just her character being gay, I know historically and I don't know, like anecdotally that Italy. There's a lot of gay men in Italy. You have been allowed to have a homosexual relationship there since the 18 hundreds.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Wow.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: In parts. So they've been historically progressive in that way, especially with men. And there's like parts of Italy where there's like a lot of gay beaches.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I mean, look at the gay posse around which is sidebar. I feel like part of that posse was like Borat and Albert Einstein. Like, I couldn't stop thinking that when I was watching.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's so funny.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But then yeah, compare that to Valentina's experience as a gay woman, and she certainly seems like it was not safe at all to know give any ounce of it was so repressed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She also seems to really not like men.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes. Like in that coffee shop.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, the coffee shop. And then she's really like it's so funny.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Rocco. Rocco.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, she makes Rocco go and work down at the beach. And then she's so, I think, trying to almost use her not 100% fluent in english to challenge and shame Dominic when he's asking for lucia and Mia to be added to his room. And she's like, I don't understand. So they'll also be sleeping with your dad?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And he's like, no, you'll all be.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: In the same bed. Yes. That was funny. And I think, like, her doing that purposely.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, I think so.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think she has, like, contempt for men, and that makes me wonder why. I'm sure there's a lot of background there we didn't get to learn about, but watching her evolution, I also thought was really fascinating. I kind of just wonder how she felt at the end of the like, did she feel, like that relationship with mia, if that was, like, did it end there, or did it continue? Did it feel okay to, like, how is she doing?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I and I think that's another right. Like, because she ends up after her and mia had spent the night together, kind of unmia. Didn't ask her, but obviously she made it known that she wanted to sing there. But valentina dismisses the other guy, the other pianist, and he's very upset by it, and she's just like, no, we're moving forward with this. And then she kind of, like, smiles at mia and then goes about her day. So it's like, again, right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like, sex is passed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: What happens next? Do they have another night together, or is Valentina now, like, this confident woman?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think she's going to go meet someone else to have another night. I think she had said, like, if you're not busy, but how long does that continue? Right. I loved mia. She did have this sort of naive innocence, in a way. All she wants to do is sing, and then she's finally singing, and she's so happy, and I was so happy for her. I did think she was a lot better than the guy. Yeah. The scenes with her and the guy trying to have sex in the chapel, I did feel grossed out by oh.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she kept turning her head, and there's, like, right, jesus, there's mother mary.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I was just like, oh, my god. And I thought it was humorous when she gave him the wrong pill, and that can happen, so you have to be really careful. As I put my doctor's hat on, be really careful what kind of pills you're taking. Don't take your friends pills. They can interact.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: ****** can interact with blood pressure medications and lead to really serious problems, which I think is maybe what happened with him. But just be careful. We do see in this season a lot of talk about prescriptions, like, there, and then we see harper and her ambient and kind of sharing it around. Ambien is also not something you should just be sharing around. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she seems to think like it's so normal for everyone to take. And I'm like, Ambien is often, like, a last resort.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It should be, I think. Unfortunately, it can be quickly prescribed, but it's really powerful. Do not mix it with alcohol. Do not mix it with other drugs. Please don't. You could get really hurt or stop breathing. It's really serious. But yeah, maybe that's a nice segue to our last crop of characters, who I found perhaps the most fascinating of know we have Ethan and Harper, who seem to be married, no kids yet, maybe I think they're thinking about starting to have a family, but they haven't really yet. And it seems like Ethan has come into this.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right? Right. It seems like he's in tech. Maybe he just sold some that he created.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, harper's a lawyer, right? She's a lawyer, so she has her own career too. But they were, like, all of a sudden, like, uber wealthy. And they're on vacation with Cameron and Daphne, who are also uber wealthy, but it seems like he's in finance. I think they live in Connecticut, and she's, like, sort of a stay at home mom. And we come to find out that Cameron and Ethan were roomies at Yale. Right. And then it seems like their dynamic was always like, Cameron always had to be, like, the big guy on campus and was threatened by, like, quiet power. And so I think Ethan was saying whenever he expressed interest in a girl, cameron would swoop in. Which reminded me of Olivia. Yes. Right. From season one. It's just like, in, like, Olivia and yes, yes, kind of fast forward, and now let's switch up the gender roles. So what were your first impressions of these folks? And I can't wait to pick your brain about Daphne.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, I think intentionally, right. Like, Harper is made to appear as, like, oh, I know she's fabulous as, like right. Like, I'd say, like, really liberal woke and not in an icky way.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like Olivia from season one.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Like, in a really smart way.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, like, she's a lawyer and she's, like, fighting for the employees and all that stuff. Yep.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It sounds like she's either fully or, like, half Puerto Rican, so she has that kind of experience and knowledge base.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But, like, white passing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Ethan seems like he's Asian to some degree. So again, not white, but also, I'd say, like, what do they call what's the phrase?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Model minority.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So so Ethan might also be considered right. Like, part of the model minority and also very stereotypical in tech. Made a lot of money, very smart. Right. So just interesting that dynamic then kind of pushed against Cameron and Daphne, who seem opposite in some ways. Right. Like, more clear gender roles with, like, Cameron makes the money, daphne stays at home with the kids, and then the conflict or how, like, tolerates that comes.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Out that I thought was I I sort of, from the jump, had this feeling like, okay, so Cameron and Ethan were friends. Our friends, I don't know. And they're like, on this vacation together, harper was spot on to say, like, he invited you because he wants your money, so just be ready for it. And like, yep, that's what happens, right? It totally blindsided me. I knew Cameron was cheating and stuff. I didn't think Daphne was also getting back at him, but in major ways, like, almost like she has the power. And again, it's like she is using Cameron's fear of abandonment to her advantage. What did you think of that? Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And also I was just wondering, like, chicken or the egg, right? Like, who pushed who first?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And they get off on pushing each other. Right. It's like, real toxic, but, like, hot.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And we're going to spend some time talking about them, but I think, again, where we're left to wonder, right, is it's not entirely confirmed, but, like, did Harper and Cameron have sex? And did Ethan and Daphne have sex?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes. And the final scene of them waiting at the airport where Cameron and Daphne feel kind of distant, but then Harper and Ethan are way more connected, and.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They know sex back in the hotel room.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Finally, it's like, finally that spark is reignited. Right. It seems like they were married and maybe going through, like, a dry spell. And they were so openly talking about how well, Ethan watches **** all the time. He wants to have sex in the morning, I want to do it at night, all this stuff. And you could see how when Harper's trying to seduce him, he's, like, pushing her away, and then it's like the flames rekindle.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. And so right. The question is why. Is it because they both had sex with others and now they're in this relationship similar to Cameron and Daphne, or did they not? And they are now feeling really close and connected to each other because of that? I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know. I don't know either. And I could see it go both ways. Did they redefine the terms of their relationship and they're both on board with it, or did they resist and that made them realize how much they really care about each other, and that's what reignited the flame? It's so ambiguous. It is clear. I don't know either. I don't know either.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So we see them have so Daphne and Daphne tricks Harper to go spend.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: The night somewhere, some palazzo or some fancy thing. I was like, who wants to do that? It seemed kind of boring, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They were, like, in this know, beautiful.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Space, but, like, by yeah, like, where do you get dinner? I don't know. I don't like she could find one strand.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They took an edible yeah. To relax.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But I would feel like yeah. Like Harper felt like she was trapped.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she was and then Daphne's like, well, don't call Ethan. I want to call Cameron first. Right. Like, she needed to call Cameron first to let them know that they just got so swept up and are just going to stay here now.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But that wasn't true. She knew the whole time that she was going to stick it to him in this way. Is it because she knew he was bound to cheat on her, or he has before and she's spending his money.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And this is her okaying. It because if they had never left, they never would have had the opportunity to do that.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Never crossed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She left intentionally, like, giving him this, which, again, he obviously didn't need to do it, but she gave him this space to have this day that could have just been jet skiing.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, that never crossed my mind. I always thought she was mad at him and getting him back, but this is also like she's giving him an invitation. Yeah, but it's also like this is where their toxicity plays off each other because she knows it's going to hurt him. And she says that to Harper, like, oh, he has this fear of abandonment. I think she even calls it that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And fear of missing out, having this phone experience.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. And she was like, yeah, they're going to stick it to him and spend his money to rent this place, but then maybe she knows that's going to make him mad enough to be unfaithful to her, but then maybe somehow that justifies her. And the scenes between Harper and Daphne where Harper's trying to bring it to her attention, what did you think of Daphne's responses and the actress's responses?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I would say first, not typical. Not what know, I guess the knee jerk.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Not what I was expecting at all.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she kind of initially gets pretty severe with Harper insisting that she is not the victim.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes. She gets very hard and defensive very quickly, like when they're still in that palazzo or something, and she's like, I think something happened with them. Right. And when Harper's like, do you think he cheats on you? And she's like, once or twice, like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: A year, a month.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think at first you're left to think like, he does that, and she accepts it. And then it hit me out of left field when she's talking about her personal trainer. Right. Did you pick up on the kid that it's like his kid? Yes. Right. Yes. And that's like the ultimate sucker punch, I feel like, to Cameron. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because she describes and this was very, in my opinion, intentional. She describes the trainer as like he looks this blonde haired, blue eyed guy. And then she shows them a picture of her two kids and the one that I zoomed in on, which again, it was probably edited, so I would do that was this blonde haired, blue eyed boy. And Cameron has brown eyes and Daphne has blue. That's possible. But I just thought it was like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, she's trying yeah, and she was allegedly trying to show Harper a picture of the trainer, and then Harper's like, oh, this is a picture of your kids. And she's like, oh, is it? And that's like, Daphne leaves so much she says so much by saying so.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yep.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I feel like that is her power and just like, what a thing to hold on to. And does Cameron know, or like, I.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Think no, I think he thinks that he is the one who's getting away or being hot shot, but I think it's like, Daphne is the one, ultimately, and she knows it, and that's how I think she can tolerate and that's.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: How she gets, I think oof, icky. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And not expected.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: When we meet her, she's like, oh, hi.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: She's always so fun. I think I voted last year. When I get drunk, I donate to know. I didn't see that coming. Like, what a fascinating character. I kind of want Daphne to be in season three. I want to see where Daphne goes. I never liked Cameron. He gives me the like right away.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, in her comments, daphne's of not having a lot of female friends or having a hard time with that. I was like, well, is it because Cameron's, like, touching them? Is it because he's trying to have sex with all your friends? Or are they picking up on just, like, your toxic relationship and don't want anything to do with it?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Just icky. Yeah. And then it's like, look how she relates to right. Like, at first, she's really complimentary and seems kind of sweet, and one of those like, at first I was like, you're just one of know, people who can just see the good and block out the bad news and stuff like that, whereas Harper and Ethan are more based in reality. But then this whole other nefarious side to Daphne came out, and I'm just left wondering, is this who Daphne is? Or has she turned into this in relation to Cameron?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And this toxicity. I don't know. It's fascinating.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It is. It's so fascinating. I mean, I thought the four of them were a really interesting storyline to follow. I think also, just, like, it seems to be that if there's something that you're trying to get away with, it's, like, the truth seems to always come out right. Of course, Harper finds the condom, and then she starts pulling all this other information out of Ethan, which I was like, ethan, come clean earlier. It's like you kept adding things in over time, over and over, and it's like, I understand that you still, by sharing what happened, are going to make Harper uncomfortable or upset, but she thinks that you had sex with someone.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And on the flip side, Harper didn't bring it up right away. Like, she found it. She kind of kept it. They went to dinner as if everything's okay.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She kept asking him questions about last night, and he was really evasive.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know. I was just like, you guys communicate directly, right? Like, come on. But I don't think they really know how to and then they really start to mistrust each other.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it seems like it's all because of cameron and right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like I blame for yeah, for sure.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like he's the one who's stirring the pot.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think ethan touching her leg is right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Flashing back to college, where it seems like he actually really doesn't like cameron, and cameron took a lot from him, and that's why then he becomes really paranoid, which may be rightly. So about cameron and harper. And then he beats him up in the water, which I loved. And then they're all, like, dining together.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, my know, I don't even know I know. And then it's like, I felt like harper was seeing ethan maybe like, is this why we're on the trip? Because you want to show him? Like, you finally win it's like, again, them on the jet skis was so perfect. They're just having, like, a man contest, like, who wins? And he want to rub it in his face. But then it's like you see cameron for who he is, and he's always been that way. Right? Oh. It's just really, you know, and we.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Saw power dynamics as well in season one, but it's like the power of yeah. The power of relationships manipulating each other. It just was a really interesting season in that way.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was really interesting. I mean, I totally see why it swept the emmy nominations right. Under succession. All of the characters in that forsome were nominated for emmys. So was just it was such a good show.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And lucia and mia, which I loved, the fact that they were I think.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was actually lucia and valentina.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Valentina, yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But just really remarkable. And I thought, again, right up there for me with succession and you and just getting it so right in terms of the dialogue. But even more than that, everything else besides the dialogue when they're acting and staging and their body language and what's not said and the silences and the facial expression, all of it is so good, so compelling and so accurate.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And even the more quieter characters on this show, like jack, like know, maybe he's a little bit of a bigger character than but, like, I think they're also such good actors. We felt so many different emotions towards all of the characters, all at different times, and I feel like that to me, really speaks about someone's ability to be an actor. Yes. And we also have coming out next month, one flew over the cuckoo's nest, and we talked, too, about jack nicholson's performance in that where it's like his character is set up so that you automatically should not like him. And then there's this weird dynamic in the show where you're rooting for him. And again, I feel. Like, I see that with Jack, right? Like he's participating in this horrible scheme, but I feel really sorry for him and know, have empathy and I think, well, most people can feel empathy. Empathy.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Sociopath. It's confirmed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, confirmed today. But I just think all of their characters are so well written and so well acted. I know we just said that, but I'm repeating it because I'm just such a fan.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes. Mike White, please come on our show.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'd love to pick your brain. It must be an amazing place to be in your brain.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So what is your prediction for season three? So we saw an emphasis on money. There's an emphasis on sex.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What could be greed?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, I'm thinking maybe of like the seven deadly seven deadly sins.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like gluttony, like sex. I'm fascinated by like I would actually love it if Portia's the one who we sort of follow next. I think that'd be really interesting. I found Daphne really fascinating. I don't know Portia. I have no idea what to expect. I bet all the writer strike and the SAG strikes, which I fully support, but I think that will sort of delay.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's such an interesting thing to think about. I was watching a rerun of a show that I like, I watch Big Bang Theory sometimes at night because I've.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Seen all the episodes fun, silly, soothing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I was like, this is what we're going to have to do, like watch all these reruns because everything is going to be delayed, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'm sure they can throw out some Hallmark movies because they're really good at producing and getting those ones out fast once this is over. But some of these shows we know yellow Jackets, White Lotus, you.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Know, like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You said, I'm supportive, but I just want the content. I know.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So if these corporations could just get it together, that'd be great. But in the meantime, if you're enjoying this content, please rate, review and subscribe. Our show is doing better than we expected, but if you're listening and you haven't subscribed yet, please do follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts. Follow us on TikTok at Analyze scripts, podcast. Follow us on Threads at Analyze scripts. Podcast. Let us know what you want to hear us analyze next and we'll see you next Monday.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, thanks for listening.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Bye bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider. If they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing the 2001 rom-com "Legally Blonde." Although some parts of this move (particularly the lack of diversity) haven't aged well, it was fun to revisit the '90s. We admire Elle's strong sense of self and the way she was able to use it to help others like Paulette. We enjoyed the way this movie tackled serious topics like sexual harrassment, imposter syndrome, and emotional abuse in the context of the broader comedy. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy.

[00:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hi, thanks for joining us today. We are going to recap a little bit before we get into the movie that we're covering, Legally Blonde. So stay tuned. We have so much Emmy news.

[01:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, we have a ton of Emmy news. The Emmy nominations came out last week and a lot of the shows that we have covered over the past few months were heavily nominated, including Succession, White Lotus, Yellow Jackets and Shrinking. So if you hadn't had a chance to listen to all those episodes, please go back and take a listen.

[01:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I mean, I think none of them were surprised.

[01:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, but I was surprised. I mean, I wasn't surprised. Succession got 27 nominations. White Lotus got 23. White Lotus season two, which we're actually going to release an episode about next week. I thought that was like a great season, but I was a little surprised it got so heavily nominated. And I don't know if you notice, Portia, but in the supporting actor in a drama category, it's all White Lotus and Succession actors.

[01:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's it.

[01:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: No one else from anything else. And I was like, whoa, they're going to duke it out.

[01:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, they're all so good. So it's just like, how can you even I don't know. They're all good for different reasons, right?

[02:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: How do you pick one? And also the best supporting actress is very heavily White Lotus and Succession, including the two actresses whose names are escaping me right now, but they play the two native Italian girls in White Lotus season two. I was really glad that they got nominated. And our BFF, Jennifer Coolidge got a nomination. So that's exciting.

[02:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, really excited. And I was most excited to see Jessica Williams for shrinking, too.

[02:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: I hope she wins. Gabby, gabby.

[02:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Gabby character.

[02:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: We love her. We love her water bottles. We love her energy.

[02:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think people are also finding shrinking right now, like later. Yeah.

[02:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: So again, if you haven't listened to our episodes yet, I think we have like four episodes about shrinking because we tried to split it up and there.

[02:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Was so much to talk about.

[02:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it's also really funny. I thought Yellow Jackets might have gotten more nominations. I was a little I mean, again, great. They got nominated for outstanding drama. Melanie Linsky got nominated. But I know everyone was really pushing for Sophie Nielsen. I don't know if I'm saying her name correctly as Young Shauna. I didn't see her name there. That's kind of a bummer.

[03:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. Thinking about yellow jackets, like, not a lot of people I know have seen it. I think there's another person who I interact with who watched yellow jackets because I told them about it.

[03:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Are you basically saying we're influencers?

[03:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Basically, I'm an influencer at the couch.

[03:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Basically, if Showtime or HBO wants to sponsor us, feel free.

[03:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So I'm spreading the news. But I think that's the problem with that show. It's on Showtime, which, again, is like HBO Max or Max. But I don't think Showtime is as big. I feel like I'm using air quotes. Like, everyone has Max. Yeah, but not everyone has Showtime.

[03:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, no, I could see that. But then with these awards, at least with the Oscars, I feel like a lot of times more obscure things do get a lot of nominations or end up winning. I don't know if it's that way for the Emmys. I'm not really hip to that insider info. I will say I was really happy to hear Vanderpump Rules got nominated. Just as a tangent, I thought, again, I love trash reality TV, but I do think this season was really good and they totally deserve it. And the editors got nominated, too, which I think is super well deserved.

[04:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I wonder if that's, like a precedent.

[04:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, sorry, what were we going to say?

[04:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, just like editing reality TV. We see producers or writers or editors for all these fictional, amazing shows, but they're working hard, too.

[04:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And I think it is interesting that I feel like in the Bravo sphere, vanderpump Rules has always been seen as kind of like the little sister to maybe like The Housewives or all these other shows. But they got nominated, so I kind of feel like it's like the underdog coming out, which, again, kind of reminds me of Elle Woods being the underdog that no one saw coming.

[05:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. That's a great segue.

[05:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: I like you. Thank you. It just came naturally.

[05:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's when you know it's better. So yeah. So, Legally Blonde, we're going to be discussing today, it came out in 2001.

[05:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

[05:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's pretty old.

[05:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like us.

[05:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just like us.

[05:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like me, at least.

[05:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did you watch it when it came out?

[05:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, yeah.

[05:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Monumental. Yes.

[05:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I've seen this movie a bazillions of times.

[05:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I've seen it on TV. Every time it's on, I think I just have it on in the background.

[05:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: You didn't go to, like, the movies with your friend? I didn't go to movies. So, again, I feel like I'm not that much older than you, but in this context, I am reminded that I am. And again I feel like am I the Paulette to your l? No.

[05:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe if you can teach me how to Bendon's now. Yeah, I totally can, but no, I think those couple of years, though, matter based on where we were at during those years. I was in heightening, I was twelve. That makes a big difference for TV and shows at that time.

[06:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I love watching this movie because I think it reminds me of my younger years seeing it with my friends from Dance. We all had those little heart necklaces, the knockoff Tiffany necklaces. I love the bubble letter font and all the colors. Yeah, exactly. Like all that stuff. It's really nostalgic in that way. But when I rewatched it in preparation for recording this, I was like, oh my gosh, Elle Woods is such an amazing character. I don't know what was your reaction to kind of rewatching it as an adult?

[06:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think when I've rewatched the movies that we've covered that are older, I continually am cringing at some of the.

[06:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Things like diverse they are true. Or how some of the language, they.

[06:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Still say things that I'm just like, OOH yikes. And I will say some of the things that I've heard are words that they've used in Legally Blonde in The Hangover. They do edit them out.

[07:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like when you see a TV now, like, I'm thinking when Jennifer Cool just character says the R word, maybe.

[07:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. So when they're replaying on E, those parts are not on TV. So I did.

[07:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Watch this.

[07:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like I think I forget. Where Amazon Prime? I think I did too. And then it's the full movie with all the glory and I was just like I think it's because I'm being more analytical and nitty gritty and looking for things.

[07:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well now, Portia, we are like scholars of film. We are we're not only scholars of mental health and psychiatry, we are scholars of film and we're combining these interests. So of course we are watching it with an analytic lens.

[07:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: A little bit of a disappointment, to be honest.

[07:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: I noticed that too, with some of the language and also in terms of diversity, I think I saw like one black person and it was the student that Professor Stramo like, hit in the head with the pen. And I was like, really? The whole movie? The whole movie. That's the one black person, they get hit in the head with a pen. So I think that's speaking to exactly what you're saying.

[08:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, and then also, just like it was funny watching it on Greek Life, all the stuff on every fall now on TikTok, and I think it was a big disappointment. But the HBO Max sorority, it was supposed to be this big exposure of Alabama sororities and ended up not doing any of that. So I think everyone's interested in Greek life. And I think this again. I mean, legally, Bomb is like, really stereotypical Greek life.

[08:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: A lot of girls exercising, like they were depicted exercising constantly.

[08:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Dieting, dieting.

[08:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: They're all skinny, all same body type super cute, but I definitely noticed that too. And I wasn't in a sorority or anything, so I have no idea if that's really what Greek life is like or if that's like a fantasy. Probably a fantasy.

[08:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it depends. At least I've heard that it also depends where you are, like, if you're in a sorority or fraternity in the Northeast, it is very different than, like, the south. From the south.

[09:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[09:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Where I don't know. I also was not a participant in Greek life. I know of some people who have had wonderful experiences and some people who have had horrible experiences, and then rumors of, again, some stereotypical things happening with hazing or weight checks and stuff like that. So I don't know. I mean, I think, again, it depends where you go to school and the culture of that specific chapter there in.

[09:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, I liked the Delta News. I loved Elle's. Two little best friends. Again, it's like the comedy. Yes, the one who got banks. But it's a comedy. It's over the top. But I did feel like they were so supportive of her desire to go to law school, and they were helping her study, and they were all so excited when she opened her LSAT envelope.

[09:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Very lifting her up.

[09:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I loved that. And I think also watching it now in this phase of my life, I just connected with her in every step of the way to get to law school, and I was like, this does hearken back to how hard it is to take the MCAs. Like, getting into medical school, finding yourself, a lot of it just made me feel really good. Yeah, exactly. My interviews for medical school were not.

[10:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: A tape you had to fly right?

[10:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or go to yeah. Back in the day before Zoom. Yeah. You had to gosh. I mean, I think I took the MCAT twice. It was really hard. I took an MCAT prep class that I won in a raffle. I never would have been able to afford that if I hadn't won in a raffle. And then yeah, you had to fly to each school to interview, and it was really scary. They were really interviewing you and expensive.

[10:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, expensive to other parts of the country where you might get in and might need to go there or might not.

[10:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it was expensive. I remember for applying for residency, I took up more student loans to be able to afford to fly around to the different places to interview. I mean, on the one hand, it's nice to get an actual feel for the place you're going to be living, the people you're going to be either going to school with or working with. On the other hand, having the Zoom interviews would have saved a ton of money.

[11:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[11:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I guess you don't really get as much of a feel for culture. No, I couldn't. No, I could. I don't think it would have been really as received as well as at Harvard Law.

[11:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I did like the scene where it was like eight white males who were looking at her tape and I liked that they were like, let's give it a shot. This is so different.

[11:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that never would happen in real life. But I thought they were really playing tongue in cheek in this desire to have a more diverse class. Again, kind of disappointing given how undiverse the movie was. I guess. Just interesting.

[11:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was really about, I think, when she got to Harvard, like, being literally blonde. Right? So even at the last scene of the movie when it's that they're all in their caps and gowns. It's like it's spanning everyone and there's like it's just brown hair, brown hair.

[12:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Brown hair, brown hair, blonde. And I loved that Elle Woods had this sense of self confidence and assurance in her own sense of self.

[12:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, I can do this. What do you mean? I'm going to study hard. And she worked hard and she did.

[12:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do it, but I was just like, wow. I actually really admired that about her character. And I think you could totally hate this character because she obviously has a lot of privilege, a lot of money, these things. Like, she's not taking out student loans to apply to law school. But you don't hate her, I think, because she's also really kind and sweet and genuine and she is working hard. And I thought all the people around her who were so judgy were just, like, so mean. They're just so mean.

[12:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And in the context of like, they all also have a lot of money. It's like everyone in the same group. She's the nicest and sweetest and seems really kind and open and she's maybe more wealthy even than they are. But it's not like we're seeing a vast array of socioeconomic. Right?

[13:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: We have Warner Huntington II and Vivian Kensington from Connecticut, of course. But yeah, I mean, I think also the currency at Harvard Law is probably intellect in your brain, maybe rather than money. Although probably everyone does have a lot of money for the most part.

[13:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It comes like legacies and stuff like that.

[13:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like Warner Huntington II with all of his senator brothers and stuff. But yeah, I mean, that scene where she just gets there and they're going around introducing each other and everyone's like, not even humble bragging, just bragging about all their stuff. I was like, oh, my God. I have been in situations like this where everyone's introducing yourself and you're talking about like, this is what I did, and this is what I did, and this is what I did and it's so uncomfortable.

[14:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: What is your take with mental health in this movie?

[14:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I guess I'm thinking about mental health. I mean, stress comes to mind. Like the stress of getting into law school and then trying to fit in and trying to succeed. I feel like the dynamic between L and Paulette, played by Jennifer Coolidge, is really sweet. And I almost feel like Paulette draws from Elle's own sense of self assuredness and security to take some major steps in her life, whereas before meeting, they kind of help each other. And I just really liked that. And then I think the sexual harassment with Professor Callahan but what about your take?

[14:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was thinking of it in terms of relationships and young relationships transition. So Elle is so convinced that Warner is going to propose to her.

[14:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: She's so in love with him and that puppy.

[15:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Their whole life planned out together, and everyone thinks that it's going to happen. And then he breaks up with her and it's like her whole world, because it is her whole world collapses, turned on its head, and it's like she doesn't know what to do with herself. She's lost. And then she makes this decision, which ultimately is excellent for her, but initially it's just she's following him. I'm going to go to Harvard Law School just to try to get back with my boyfriend kind of a little out there. And not everyone can do that.

[15:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[15:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I think that just speaks to being young and lost and how much a breakup can impact you.

[15:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. And I think we see that and maybe some of us have even experienced that in our own lives around that time frame. Like in your early twenty s. I think we talked about this and I can't remember which episode recently, but I think everything everywhere all at once. That time in your life can be so confusing and hard and really emotional because you don't really know what's next. And it sounds like for L, she was so attached to him, admiring him and being his wife and just being 100% supportive of him that she was really devastated when he kicked her to the curb. What did you think about Werner Huntington II?

[16:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I just can't stand him. I love that he called. I didn't love it, but like Pooh Bear. And then she saw that he was also calling his ex now fiance.

[16:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Same thing.

[16:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Pooh Bear. And then he wants her back after she wins the case because she's like enough now for his family. Right. She's like serious. That was kind of her attempt. The whole movie is to be serious and for him to value me. So I think he's just like a narcissist, scummy, entitled, bratty riddle.

[16:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, but I think actually portrays some really classic signs of a narcissistic partner exactly like you're describing. Like having the same pet name for each of your girlfriends, like they're interchangeable. And then wanting to go back to the shinier winning object when the other one isn't shining and winning anymore. These are actually really classic signs of someone with narcissistic traits, wouldn't you say?

[17:16] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think also I would guess and you never want to predict this, but that if he had married Vivian or Elle that he probably would cheat on that with younger assistants, people with.

[17:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Less power, like Professor Callahan. Yeah, exactly. What did you think about that dynamic between L and Professor Callahan?

[17:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think for such a silly movie, I think it really was an important part and it was serious and it happens. And I think that they portrayed it really well within the comedy context, right.

[17:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Within the context of the movie and the spirit of the movie.

[17:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then Vivian thinking that that's how she was getting all of these opportunities and she might not have been wrong in another context. And then she's horrified to find out that it was unwanted and then really kind of lets her see L differently and then they kind of become friends.

[18:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like Elle is so forgiving. I don't know if I would have been so buddy buddy with Vivian after everything she did to me.

[18:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like right.

[18:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Cruel, mean, like with the party. That's what I mean is they they do a good job of depicting all these, like, fancy smarty pants at Harvard. They were so mean to her. Like, everyone was so judgmental. I think I resonated with that because I remember I went to college in Boston and I didn't grow up there. And when I got there, I have this vivid memory portrait of riding the t the subway in Boston wearing like a hot pink skirt and a lime green shirt. Right. I'm like 17, going to college, and everyone else on the subway is in black. And I just remember looking around being.

[18:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, that's also just like so accurate for New York and Boston. We're drab like northeast, cold, not friendly, wear a lot of black and neutral.

[19:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I remember getting on the subway, paint my little fair and saying hi to every single person because I come from the south where you say hi to people and everyone's looking at me like, I'm going to ask them for money or I want something from them. I have this vivid core memory of this experience. And so seeing L, like, arrive to Harvard, I was like, yes, that's what it feels like. Luckily, no one ever told me or invited me to a costume party that wasn't a costume party. Like, how embarrassing.

[19:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So Elle takes it such in stride.

[19:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[19:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she obviously is embarrassed and hurt. And then she's like, okay, well, you know, I look hot. And she did, and you all are lame and I'm going to go talk to Warner in my little bunny outfit.

[19:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Then she goes to get her laptop again. I loved the colorful MacBooks, right? Like, I always wanted one of those.

[19:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I remember in middle school having the big computer lab and they were all clear and you could see in it, and we had game boys that were clear and it was all a clear.

[20:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Those little phones with the cords and.

[20:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Then the blow up furniture, everything was clear. We want to clear.

[20:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you could see the inside. Right. I wonder if that appeals to us as therapists. Right. Like, really wanting to see the inside of things, how do these things work and things like that.

[20:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Weird. Anyway.

[20:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Weird.

[20:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But so I also, you know, we could talk a little bit about of mental health with Paulete and her ex husband.

[20:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[20:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He seems with not using therapy words, like kind of an ahole. Yeah, that you're right.

[20:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: That is not a diagnostic term.

[20:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Not, but definitely powerful. Paulette seems, like, intimidated by him when they go to pick up the dog. It's like immediately after being gone for so long, they're back in the same exact dynamic, which feels abusive.

[20:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. At least emotionally, on the surface, if not worse.

[21:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she kind of backs down. And then L comes in with her legal L one jargon, using, like, pulling.

[21:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: It anywhere you can. Right.

[21:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And he gets the dog, and it's great. Yes. And that was really a win for Paulette. But just, again, in a comedy tough scene, though, like, a lot there within this funny context because I'm taking the **** dog. Like, that's an iconic line. But it's like, again, it seems like it's an abusive relationship. Paul seems very scared and disempowered victim in that space.

[21:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. She's, like, tripping over her words. She's having a hard time making eye contact with him. You can tell she's so nervous. And then, like, Elle comes in again, like, putting on her lawyer hat and using whatever word she can think of to help her. And I feel like that was almost the first time she realized her power. Like, I can do this. I can help someone. And that feels really good. And I think similar to the scenes with Professor Callahan after he comes on to her, this movie does actually a pretty nice job of addressing these really tough, serious topics that do arise in the course of a woman's life really well.

[22:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And then, too, this is where it's a little gray. So, Emmett, who's Luke Wilson? He's never her teacher.

[22:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I think he's a third year.

[22:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He writes for the paper.

[22:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. But then he also seems like maybe a lawyer already. I think he represent her. Maybe he's, like, fresh out of law.

[22:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: School, and he doesn't clerk. He works for Callahan, and he's just, like, around Harvard, because I think Callahan's, like, firm is probably there.

[22:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, I don't know how that works.

[22:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But it felt like I think if I'm being really critical, I was maybe.

[22:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, there's a little power dynamic there too. Yeah, no, I can see what you're saying, that he's older, he's already employed, he can help her.

[23:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I didn't see him right.

[23:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: I didn't see him take advantage of that. Right. Whereas we see Callahan purposefully knows what he's doing and puts his knee or not his knee, his hand on her knee in an attempt to try to take advantage of her. And again, unfortunately, that happens. And again, for Elle to know that that was wrong and to stick up for herself takes a lot of self confidence when you're in a vulnerable position like that.

[23:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, because he could cut her right from the internship immediately and mess with her career.

[23:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. And unfortunately, it does happen. And I thought it was nice to see the other characters sort of come to her defense. I would have liked to see more consequences for Professor Callahan. Didn't seem like there was a whole heck of a lot.

[23:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And also not surprising, I know tenured probably that's I think a magical word in academia for kind of doing whatever. Great movie. I did want to comment a little bit on. We spoke about it earlier, but a lot of unhelpful gross body stuff, and especially just like the whole court case being around a Delta new sister who didn't want to tell people that she had lipo.

[24:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[24:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But she's like this workout guru who can make change a woman's body like that. And Elle's like, I took her class and I lost three pounds, and it's like, hey, you probably were dehydrated after.

[24:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: You went from a six to a four.

[24:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right? So just, again, really appropriate for the times. And we've moved it's, what, 22 years later? I'm not great at math. I'm not good at math.

[24:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like we've moved a little bit in the right direction, but still not that far. And now, especially with, like, Ozempic, I feel like we're sliding back decades. But you're right. I mean, this does depict Brooke, played by Allie Larder, being unwilling to give her ally.

[25:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She'd rather go to jail, right, than.

[25:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Lose her reputation and say that she needed liposuction to look the way she.

[25:16] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Looks, which is so current. 100% celebrities refuting the fact that they have had plastic surgery, that they're on Ozembic, that they have guests, personal chefs, personal trainers who are at their beck and call 24/7. They're also editing their pictures like it's just like we know that. And I think I talked about this in an earlier episode, but I'm going to bring it up again, because it's interesting is that they've done studies where even if you know that a picture has been edited, like on Instagram, now it'll say edited with blah, blah, blah filter. It doesn't matter in our brain, we still will then compare. We still will feel dissatisfied. So we can take all these steps forward with even acknowledging, okay, I've had work done. If I say that and you still are comparing yourself to me and still feeling dissatisfied, you still feel bad, right? Like, it doesn't matter that, you know, I've had work done, which is just so interesting.

[26:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I think also because you still want to look like that and maybe you're even sad that you don't have the means to have the work done right if you wanted to have it.

[26:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So, I mean, I think all these companies, Meta, TikTok, Instagram are all trying to do things to help body image. They always have filt leave. You can't say some things online, they block hashtags, they will let you know with a filter. But at the end of the day, it's so hard to it's not about that. It's about changing how we interpret bodies.

[26:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. What our society thinks is important.

[26:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Correct. At the inner level, it's like we value beauty, we value thinness, we value wealth, we value all these things that are not attainable for some people, for most people. And that message, though, has been around for so long, and I don't know what it's going to take to have it reduced.

[27:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I don't know. And I wonder if I'm sure other cultures, other countries experience this too.

[27:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Absolutely.

[27:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: By the way, we have so many international listeners that if you want to DM us and let us know what it's like in your neck of the woods, that'd be cool. But I'm sure other countries and other cultures face this issue too. But I feel like in America, you're right. We really focus on the Britney Spears body type. Even now. Even now that is like or maybe now it's more the Kardashian body type. But it's still unattainable. Right. The beauty standards are always unattainable.

[27:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's just hard to police it. There's a creator online who's really controversial. I believe they have come out and said that they have anorexia and they are very emaciated and they do lives and they're known, they're very popular. They have twitch and all that stuff.

[27:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you feel comfortable saying who it is or not?

[27:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's eugenie. Eugena? Yeah. I mean, I think people know she's very popular and I think also because she's like fascinating because she looks very sick. But it's this moral, I guess, ethical question of, like what she's doing is not illegal. Right? You can't livestream on drugs, you can't livestream doing speeding in a car. You can't livestream naked. Yeah. There's all these things that you can't do that maybe necessarily aren't illegal but are harmful for others to see. So it's really just this ethical question of, like well, her live streaming, I might say, is doing more harm than some other things. But what would you call then? Why isn't she allowed to be in her body broadcasting? Because she's not talking about anything. She's not talking about ed content, she's.

[28:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not talking about food at all.

[28:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's like is that the reason that it's fine?

[28:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's a really ethical gray line.

[28:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I think bodies continue to be political. And I went to a training where it's like living in a larger body is like being a part of political warfare. And it is. So this movie definitely does not help offer that. Body diversity.

[29:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, it doesn't. And I noticed that, too, like, right away. And I also think, though, maybe to end on a positive note, the one nice thing it offered was like at the end when she had just been sexually harassed by Professor Callahan, she was going to say goodbye to Paulette. She was really, really tearful, then turns around Professor Stromwell, who was there, like, getting her highlights. And I thought that was kind of like a nice model for her to see that you can be smart and a lawyer and still get your highlights.

[29:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[29:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: And when she said, if you're going to let your whole career go for this one, man, you're not who I thought you were. And again, I'm like, well, you were kind of mean to her first, too. You kicked her out. But I guess we can brush that aside. But I thought that was kind of a nice model to show. And I think that is important, maybe, especially for women to embrace that you can have all these different facets of your identity. And I know that's something that I don't know if I'd say I struggle with, I wouldn't use the word struggle, but definitely like this impostor syndrome. When you're at a fancy schmancy institution, you're like, well, can I still wear color or will you take me less seriously? Right. I think we've talked about that with this podcast. I'm a little nervous, like, will people think I'm not as smart or will they laugh at me or as serious or like, I know what I'm talking about. So, in that way, I did really appreciate that part of the movie.

[30:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think it's great. Again, there's so many lawyers out there who have been inspired by L Woods.

[30:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: I wanted to look up the statistics, like, was there a surge in law school admissions afterwards?

[31:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think a lot of people saw being really feminine in the field and then were able to see themselves. Which is why it's so important, right, to broadcast diversity. Because if you see yourself or somebody who looks like you doing something, you're more likely to do it.

[31:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: And so, to wrap up getting back to the Emmys, so Reese Witherspoon has had a really great career. She's played so many diverse roles. She had a career before this, but I do think this really catapulted her star. And now she has her own production company, hello Sunshine, which a couple of those shows, I think the Daisy Jones in the 6th and Tiny Beautiful Things were also nominated for Emmys. And she was saying this was my goal with starting this production company, was to highlight female voices and movies and TV shows from the female perspective. Because I think given in her career, thinking back to that movie Fear with Mark Wahlberg, she's come out and said there was a scene on a roller or a Ferris wheel or something. I don't know if you saw that movie Portia that she was really uncomfortable with, but she didn't feel like she had a voice to say anything. So I think that's really cool that people are again, she has a ton of privilege to be able to do that, but that the people with the privilege are doing it to try to pave the way for future generations.

[32:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But stay tuned, because we'll also be covering Reese in the Morning show, which is a serious, more serious role for her. So stay tuned.

[32:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, and then we'll see you again next Monday with White Lotus Season two to sort of wrap up our Jennifer Coolidge July. And as always, if you could please rate, review and subscribe. We have gotten a lot of new listeners and subscribers, so we really appreciate it, but please take a minute to rate and review. If you want to support the show, you can find us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast. And now we're on threads. Yeah, I don't know what the name is, though.

[32:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's just Analyze scripts.

[32:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay, great. You can tell which one of us manages the social media, and we'll see you next time. Take care. Bye.

[33:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited.

[33:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine.

[33:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, "Jennifer Coolidge July" continues with "White Lotus" Season 1. Who doesn't love this show?! In this episode, we dig into the toxic interpersonal dynamics depicted in all of the relationships amongst the main characters. We spend a lot of time analyzing Tanya's manipulation of Belinda and discuss which behaviors are consistent with borderline personality disorder (BPD). We also explore what keeps Rachel and Mark connected to Shane and Nicole, respectively, and poke fun at Olivia's "wokeness." We hope you enjoy! PS RIP Armond.

[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five, and enjoy. Hi, welcome back. We are so excited you're joining us today to talk about the hit HBO show White Lotus Season One, as part of our Jennifer Coolidge July Celebration. We hope everyone had a really wonderful July 4 weekend, and we hope you ate all the hot dogs you could get your hands on. Yeah, I did. Porsche. I want to start a little differently than usual because something just really interesting happened to me during my July 4 celebration. Okay. I went with my family to Legoland, which is a really wonderful place for little kids. And on July 4, they had this whole celebration. They had really cool fireworks with 3D glasses, where when the fireworks exploded, they looked like Legos. I thought that was really cool, and I was really trying to figure out the science because not every light was connected to a Lego. So it had something to do with the frequency and the electrons, and I just get really nerdy about these things. But then they also had a fire dancer, right? Like, would you expect that at a child theme park? No. And so we Legoland.

[01:58] Portia Pendleton: Maybe like Disney World.

[01:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, they had a fire dancer. They were really pulling out all the stops. They also had the Brick Street Boys, because everything is like brick themed with the Lego brick, everything's brick tastic. And, you know, I love the Max Tree Boys, so that was titillating. But this fire dancer, we stumbled across her as we were leaving, and obviously we had to stop and watch her and just imagine she is like five foot zero at the most. Like, on a good day. She's itty bitty, teeny tiny, wearing a full on white unitard, like full on bodysuit with red and white horizontal stripes, so she looks like a firecracker. And then she had this beautiful bleach blonde hair, but with these long, long bangs and these bright red lips.

[02:49] Portia Pendleton: Oh, no.

[02:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I kept worrying, like, is her hair going to catch on fire? Right? I was just like, I loved her look, her hair is wonderful.

[02:56] Portia Pendleton: Or it is.

[02:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know. I would think your hair would catch on fire. But then I think also, like, the fire they use has got to be not real fire because then she starts, like, eating it. So she's also maybe a fire eater.

[03:08] Portia Pendleton: Okay.

[03:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I just thought it was really fascinating because she's, like, in this awesome outfit, a little sensual for Legoland, the theme park and doing these moves that are not, like, seductive per se, but sensual with fire. It was just really interesting to see all these children watching this. And what I loved is the music she picked first, obviously. Miley Cyrus partying in the USA. Getting her fire going. Sometimes the flames would go out because it was a little windy and she had, like, all sorts of different fire sticks. And then do you know this song that's like the grand finale song. It was like, Partying USA. Yeah. She's, like, dancing around with her little fire sticks, and then she transitions to the fans. It's like a fire fan. And she lights each one slowly and kind of seductively to that song that's like, light them up, light them up, light them up. And it was just like, wonderful. I don't know, it was just really interesting.

[04:08] Portia Pendleton: That's making me think of the yes.

[04:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: The hula dancing in white Lotus. I know. And I was just like it didn't feel like cultural appropriation, I guess, in this case. Although in White Lotus it kind of does, right? So I don't know. It was just really interesting having a fire dancer at a child's theme park. Kind of very sensual, really. Like maybe pushing the line, but not quite. And then I just kept worrying her hair was going to catch on fire. My children would see this awful, traumatic thing. And then she ended by eating the fire. And then my son was like, does she **** fire? And I was like, great question, great question, great question. Right? And then I was like, does her esophagus get burned? What are the ins and outs of being a fire dancer? What are the hazards of the trade?

[05:00] Portia Pendleton: There's got to be I mean, there's a risk of being burned, right?

[05:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Is it like, just real fire or is it some sort of special fire for fire dancers that's safe to consume?

[05:12] Portia Pendleton: I have no idea.

[05:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: No idea. So if anyone knows, DM us and let us know.

[05:16] Portia Pendleton: Fire.

[05:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Speaking of things that are hot, white Lotus, super hot show.

[05:23] Portia Pendleton: Jennifer coolidge.

[05:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Super hot. Like, at all stages of life, she is the queen. So, yeah. Where do you want to start?

[05:31] Portia Pendleton: I think we have to start with Tanya. I mean, all weekend, it's just so relevant. I kept wanting to do the on.

[05:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: A hot dog real bad. Yeah. Which I think is from legally blood. Yes. But we'll cover that next time. Gosh. Jennifer coolidge.

[05:52] Portia Pendleton: So we see her making her way to the White Lotus resort by herself, and then we learn that she has her mother's ashes in tow. Seems like it was a recent death from how she's acting appropriately during grief. It's coming in and out. Sometimes she's fine, other times she's really upset and her idea is to kind of leave some of the ashes in the water off the coast of Hawaii.

[06:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Which sounds beautiful. And I feel like people do that. People do that. But we see her sort of disembark that little tiny boat that's coming to the white Lotus with all the employees just waving and smiling. I loved how this series ended with them doing that again, except now we know more of the backstory and that made me really sad to see they're all there fake smiles, and she's just kind of a mess from the jump.

[06:46] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. We see her pretty quickly at the spa right down there. And she really wants an appointment.

[06:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: They don't have any. She's kind of freaking out, kind of pushy. And then Belinda, the lovely spa manager, or maybe just employee, makes room for her. Right. So right away we see some boundary pushing and crossing with Tanya McQuad and Belinda, which we just see continue.

[07:14] Portia Pendleton: So it kind of starts their relationship. Right. I mean, again, I'm using relationship with air quotes right now because relationships are really two ways.

[07:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. But I think, as we see with Tanya, this is a one way relationship. And I think that's a theme we see carried through for a lot of these different characters.

[07:32] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So Belinda provides a service to Tanya that Tanya believes is like, life changing. And she's healed now immediately. And she wants to spend as much time as possible with Belinda, who is doing her job and becomes pretty pushy and almost so manipulative. It doesn't get sooner right off the bat with the money right. And her opening a spot together that comes a little later, like midway through the season. But you can just see Tanya's needs very needy, trying to kind of do whatever she wants, crossing inappropriate employee guest boundaries. You can see Belinda feels uncomfortable but.

[08:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Goes along with it.

[08:15] Portia Pendleton: A really high end place where I'm like, I feel like this probably in some ways is a norm. Like, you go above and beyond for a guest.

[08:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's probably a lot of entitlement, which I think we see maybe especially with Shane kind of with all of them, though, there's a huge sense of entitlement. And we see Belinda sort of bend over backwards to make room for Tanya right at the start. And then Tanya idealizes her right away. Belinda is the be all and end all. The greatest thing that ever happened to her. She wants to shout it from the rooftops. And how did you feel, Portia, watching that? Did you start to get icky feelings or nervous feelings?

[08:55] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, I was very uncomfortable with her immediately making room for her at the spa.

[09:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Me, too.

[09:02] Portia Pendleton: Again, I mean, the show I'm like, okay, this is clearly intentional. And I think it was hard, just as a side note, to separate Tanya from Jennifer Coolidge, because I love Jennifer Coolidge so much.

[09:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't like that for real.

[09:16] Portia Pendleton: Tanya, you do you but, yeah, Tanya definitely made me feel like icky.

[09:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you think that's because we're in mental health and so we're picking up on the splitting and the idealization and we know the devaluation will come, do you think the average person without that point of view would necessarily pick that up right away?

[09:35] Portia Pendleton: Not in the same way. They might be turned off by her. Just from, like, entitlement.

[09:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And, like, the pushiness right.

[09:42] Portia Pendleton: Versus, like, maybe the why or, like, you know, it being idealization and then waiting, like you said, for their to come devaluation, which sucks. And and Belinda was very, like, devastated at the end.

[09:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I think, you know, they talk.

[09:56] Portia Pendleton: About which we'll get into more, but borderline personality disorder. Tanya feels a little borderline to me.

[10:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right as I was watching it, I got really nervous for Belinda because I just already was getting that borderline personality disorder flavor from Tanya. And that quick idealization is like a telltale sign. Even if you don't meet full criteria for a Bpd, which is the acronym for borderline personality disorder, often that quick idealization, I think we learned pretty early in our training, like, when you have a new patient who's just like, oh, my gosh, no psychiatrist has ever helped me in the way you're helping me. You're the better, amazing. Can I pay you more? Can I write you a good review? Blah, blah, blah. You learn to think, oh, there's something up here. Right.

[10:43] Portia Pendleton: And it's hard because sometimes I think people's traits are more what do I want to say? Like, hidden, where it's like you might always see the positive side. You might be always idealized by someone for years yes. And have no idea. And all of a sudden, there's like, a switch flip, as, again, happens throughout the six episodes that we see with Belinda and Tanya. But sometimes we have no idea, and other times it's so big, it's like fast friends and people can be fast friends, but sometimes fast friends is really.

[11:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like some love bomb a little. Yeah, exactly.

[11:19] Portia Pendleton: Personality disorder.

[11:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you're so right. It really depends on what side of the split you're on. So, again, people with Bpd traits or borderline personality disorder, much like we see here with Tanya, really see things in a black or white way, and they feel things that way. That's sort of their thoughts. We've talked about that in prior episodes, so you're either all good or all bad. It's hard for them to sort of see you as a mix of both, and that reflects their inability to see themselves as a mix of both. So if you're on the good side of the split, like you said for years, you can be like that, and then something might happen, like a late fee or a perceived insensitivity to something they're saying. Or it could be something big, it could be something small. Then you're very quickly devalued and on the bad side of the split. And that sucks. That feels real bad. Sometimes you're on the bad side of the split right away and you know it. And that's why it's very helpful to treat patients with these traits as a team. So then all team members can kind of support each other and also see sort of the clinical pathology and a fuller view. But we see that right away with Tanya idealizing Belinda. And I was just waiting for her to meet a man and drop Belinda as quick as possible. And unfortunately, we see that happen.

[12:36] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And I think, too, I was curious.

[12:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of who?

[12:40] Portia Pendleton: Jennifer Kuf. Tanya. Tanya.

[12:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Tanya.

[12:43] Portia Pendleton: Tanya would also interact with, like, of the other guests.

[12:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[12:48] Portia Pendleton: And then, you know, that's a great point. Her her lover Greg kind of came out of nowhere. You know, he wasn't like, one of the main cast members. So I think that was just, like, interesting.

[12:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: But her and Wise writing right. That it wasn't like someone she met on the ship or it wasn't anyone she'd even formed a minimal connection with. It was like, accidental by chance. Really quick, hot and heavy. That's how it goes.

[13:10] Portia Pendleton: Very intense. So intense emotions are, again, pretty common with a lot of personality disorders, but specifically with Bpd. And also just thinking about what we learn from Tanya's past, she alludes to her mother having Bpd. Yes, there are some genetic markers of Bpd, but also it's just really hard. Again, with attachment. Yes, there's a lot of attachment trauma in patients who have borderline personality disorder.

[13:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And so right. So if Tanya, when they're on the little boat, she's supposed to spread the ashes and they're with Shane and Rachel. I love that so much. And she's, like, kind of given a eulogy of sorts and talking about her deceased mom, I was like, all of this tracks again, a plus. Writing like this track, this sort of upbringing would potentially lead to someone displaying behaviors and traits that Tanya is. So her mom, who was obsessed with men, and it sounds like, would often prioritize her romantic relationships over her relationship with Tanya. And then we see that play out when she meets Greg and she even says, like, you said that her mom has Bpd. And you do sort of learn how to behave as an adult from your early attachment figures and what's modeled for you. So why wouldn't she display some of these traits? I would imagine that her mom would have been a bigger personality disorder, and Tanya still has those traits, and we see them, but maybe I'm imagining her mom would have been even more big.

[14:41] Portia Pendleton: I feel like, also maybe more cruel. Yeah. Tanya, I think it's almost like, has the lacking self awareness, and it's really, like, self centered. It's like only her needs are the most important. I also don't think that that's intentional. I think she's just, like, moving through.

[14:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Life, like, trying not malicious. Right? Yeah, I totally agree. It doesn't feel like logan. Roy.

[15:01] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[15:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I wonder if her mom did or if her mom was like the mom from succession. That's a great point, Portia. And again, what you just brought up I thought was really interesting. Like, which of the other guests did she interact with? Now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like it was the ones who were younger than her. It wasn't like the Moss Bach or family parents.

[15:18] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[15:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: It wasn't really Armand, except to get Belinda. Belinda. It was like Belinda was the only adult she interacted with to get her needs met. There was also a racial difference, which I thought was important and interesting, and.

[15:32] Portia Pendleton: A socioeconomic difference huge.

[15:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, I feel like Tanya ends up connecting herself to people who use her while she's using them. So her relationships are very transactional. Right. And I just think that makes a lot of sense. Even if she's not maliciously using people unconsciously, she is, but then she's also picking people who are like belinda was kind of doing that with her, too, right. Like, she was like, oh, maybe I could get my own spot and finally living out that dream. Yeah, it was really interesting.

[16:07] Portia Pendleton: And then Tanya interacts with Olivia and Paula, just, like, commenting on their appearance and their skin.

[16:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[16:14] Portia Pendleton: So it's so porcelain. She's, like, trying to feel their faces, and they're like this ladies.

[16:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And they're, like, young and beautiful and yeah. Again, just interesting people to try to attach to. It makes me wonder what psychological age Tanya is. Yes. We often think of chronological age as being different from your psychological age. And sometimes I feel like I hear this in society and in the media of child stars, you kind of get stuck at the age you became famous, and I think that might be related to the trauma of fame. And I feel like we do see that. Right? Do you see that? That people seem sort of psychologically stuck at the age of trauma occurred or something like that?

[16:56] Portia Pendleton: No, definitely. And I think, too, in Tanya's character, it feels way more, I don't know, intense where she's stuck, like, in childhood versus maybe some other patients I can think off the top of my head that I've interacted who have Bpd, where she just even, like her temper tantrums.

[17:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[17:16] Portia Pendleton: It's like she's so good at playing being a child when she's seeking reassurance so frequently, she's, like, following Greg around, literally hiding. I was like, I mean, it's comical because of the show, but it's like she is acting like a child.

[17:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. Like a five year old, maybe. Yeah, 100%. And even with Greg, like, when she was finally like, I'm going to peel.

[17:36] Portia Pendleton: Back all the layers of the onion.

[17:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: And really let him see it. And she did. She let it all out. And I felt like that was a great depiction of the sort of core fear of patients with Bpd, of abandonment and loss and attachment. This sort of I hate you, but don't leave me. Like, I'm going to leave you first because it would hurt too much if you left me, but don't leave me.

[17:58] Portia Pendleton: Or I'm going to give you an excuse to leave.

[18:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[18:00] Portia Pendleton: By acting. Right? I'm acting in this huge way. I'm pushing you away intentionally. So then I have a reason. Okay. I know why.

[18:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Or sort of like a test. Right. And Greg stayed. And I think she interprets that as like true love. I think he just wanted to have sex.

[18:16] Portia Pendleton: I think he just wanted to have sex. I'm not sure if he saw it going anywhere further than that night. But then I'm thinking and I have not watched season two, so I'm saying this kind of blind, but I also think that based on what he had done for a living, which is not being an activist for Black Lives Matter.

[18:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I loved that. Hilarious.

[18:36] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, it was so funny.

[18:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Belinda. He's with the BLM. And then Belinda's like, okay.

[18:42] Portia Pendleton: Because in her face while he's telling her that, she's just like, oh, how'd.

[18:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: She get into that? I love that whole dinner conversation. We're just like, how'd she get into activism? And he's like, what? Yeah.

[18:53] Portia Pendleton: So he's in, like, wildlife, it seems, management, fisheries, something like that. In Colorado, in the west. Because then she's like, oh, well, when I'm in Aspen, let's meet up. And I think then for him, he's seeing, in my opinion, this opportunity to be with someone who seems a little damaged to him. He now then maybe can take advantage.

[19:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of for her money. Right. In hearing that, he was like, this got money. There's something up here. I was really worried about Greg and all his coughing fits. Yeah. And I'm like, do you have COPD? Do you have a lung tumor? Why are you coughing? Do you have asthma? What is going on?

[19:29] Portia Pendleton: I forgot about that.

[19:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: I kept being really nervous he was going to drop down, like, while they were having sex or soon after or.

[19:35] Portia Pendleton: Right after they were connecting. Right. And then another person leaving her in the ultimate way.

[19:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I was really worried about that happening. So I wonder if the writers were always, like, teasing us with that or if that might come later. I don't really know. But again, she quickly attaches herself to Greg, who doesn't feel like a secure, healthy attachment figure. And again, it's like, I can't really put my finger on why I'm just getting a vibe. He's not it.

[20:04] Portia Pendleton: He doesn't seem safe for her.

[20:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But she is immediately attracted to him, like a magnet. And I think for me, watching this whole series that was like the thing that kept crossing my mind is like, why are these characters attracted to who they're attracted to when it's so clear that these are kind of like unhealthy relationship dynamics, but they don't leave. And I think we really see that with Shane and Rachel.

[20:26] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So yeah, I mean, with Rachel and Shane Patton, I feel like I have a hot take with that. I don't like Rachel and I prefer Shane.

[20:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: What?

[20:40] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I know.

[20:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, your team Shane? Yeah. I don't think anyone's team Shane.

[20:46] Portia Pendleton: I know, and I don't know what that says about me, but that's okay. So I just think that Rachel needs to get her stuff together and it bothers me. And maybe this is something I can talk about in supervision or therapy, why it bothers me so much, but I'm just like, come on, girl. Shane is not hiding himself that well.

[21:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's true.

[21:07] Portia Pendleton: This sociopathic, malignant narcissist, he's a **** up, rich, spoiled brat boy who married her because she's beautiful and has a lot of money. And it's just like now all of a sudden she's like seeing it and I'm just like really?

[21:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I don't think it was hidden before, although I guess sometimes I have heard of some relationships and again, I don't think this is uncommon, where you think you're marrying one person and then it's like the mask falls off. So maybe that happened, but Shane doesn't seem smart right, for that to have been the case.

[21:38] Portia Pendleton: And he seems like he has zero.

[21:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like a frat boy, like he's wearing his, what, like Cornell hat or something, which I'm sure he got in by having a legacy generational tie. Yeah, I don't think he doesn't strike me as the kind of narcissist to be smart enough to hide that very well. It's really out there again, he's like living his authentic self. I guess. So maybe it sounds like maybe that's why you're annoyed with her.

[22:04] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I don't know. And then you told me about his mom.

[22:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love Molly Shannon so much and everything. And then when she showed up, right, like he'd called her over and over and over, being so annoyed. Get the pineapple sweet.

[22:20] Portia Pendleton: Even though they got like this other.

[22:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Beautiful sweet, and just like a child having a temper tantrum, going to mommy, then she shows up. Can you imagine if your mother in law showed up on your honeymoon?

[22:32] Portia Pendleton: I can't think of how that would ever be okay.

[22:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know what I mean?

[22:37] Portia Pendleton: And he's just like, mom, her face is just like, this is not happening.

[22:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[22:42] Portia Pendleton: Is this real? Is this a mirage from being in Hawai or in the sun?

[22:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: All the pina coladas? Yeah. And then it's just like you get the sense that Shane and his mom Kitty are enmeshed and then you really see just how enmeshed they are. Yes. And she's like, well, I'm going to this other place with my best friend from all time, but I thought I'd stop here first. I hope that's okay. And you can see Rachel's just like, I have to say it's okay, but it's really not.

[23:06] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, and her face is so obvious, too, which maybe she is, but again, you're not even trying to hide your disdain, which I get. Again, that's like super appropriate, but within their context. Again, that's why I'm like, come on, how did you not see this?

[23:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but maybe it's like, now she's really seeing it. Maybe there was some shred of suppression or denial that was keeping her in the relationship with Shane. Again, with this series, I'm so curious about why do they stay connected to these people? And it's like, I think Shane was connected to her for her beauty. That's her power. And then she, I think, is connected to him because of his money and the privilege and the access. And she says that bopping around New York City was really fun, and now she's realizing there's like a price to pay for that privilege. It's like golden handcuffs and Kitty's part of the deal. And I also thought that the actresses portrayed that mother in law, daughter in law competition so well, more so from Kitty's perspective, you could tell that the fact that she was beautiful really bothered her. Right. That now she's not the number one woman in his life.

[24:13] Portia Pendleton: I want to know if there's a dad.

[24:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Divorced, if he's alive, or if.

[24:20] Portia Pendleton: She had always the money.

[24:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: So she said she had family money. I remember she was telling Rachel that that's why, like, if she and her husband ever split up, she'd be okay because she did have family money to fall back on. Sort of like bragging, because she knows Rachel doesn't. But then it sounds like whoever the dad is had more money. Yeah, I don't know. Actually, that's really interesting that there was no mention of him at all, especially.

[24:41] Portia Pendleton: With just like mother son dynamic. Then. Is that why they're so enmeshed? Would they have been less if there was like a third family member? He seems again, I don't think there's other kids. He seems like an only child, or.

[24:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: At least they don't talk about him if there are.

[24:55] Portia Pendleton: I mean, that too can just happen to a parent child. It's a different type of relationship than if you have two parents or siblings.

[25:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or things like that. Yeah, that's actually a really interesting point. But they were so funny, though, when Kitty and Shane and Rachel are all at that dinner and Rachel is already having an identity cris, and now here's her mother in law, who's like I think she's like, oh, God, this is what I'm going to be, or what Shane wants me to be. And I don't know if that's who I want to be. And they're all like, why don't you want to be this? This is great. And they're doing like that money, money dance while the Hula people are hooling in the background. It was so sickening. And you could see on rachel's face. She's like, oh, my God, you guys are doing this in public. But that's who they are, right? And they're also not hiding it like any shred, right? Any shred.

[25:42] Portia Pendleton: So that juxtaposition. Juxtaposition. After we talk to and meet Kai and knowing that the land was taken and that a lot of them work there and that his family is mad because he works there, because some people don't and protest so and so forth, we have that whole storyline kind of going off to the side. And then the patent family are just like, money, money. Watching the people who live there, that it's a part of their culture and meaningful, this performance that they're just like singing to. Money.

[26:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Yeah. Again. Beautiful Juxtaposition. Beautiful writing. Definitely makes you feel icky.

[26:16] Portia Pendleton: But yeah, I mean, Shane is not lovable, right? Like, he flirts with underage girls in front of Rachel, literally on their honeymoon. Like, that's gross.

[26:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's gross. And such a power move. I can't remember now if she was already sort of expressing some hesitations or some unhappiness on the honeymoon, if he was sort of like showing her like, whatever, I'll be fine, kind of thing, or if he didn't know, if he really couldn't comprehend why she'd be hurt by that.

[26:42] Portia Pendleton: Right. It was weird. And then when she's telling him, I mean, again, I don't know if anyone else felt this way or if I was the only one in the world watching, but I felt sorry for him. He had no idea from this point because he has zero self awareness. He had not a clue, which is, again, like, shocking because it's so obvious, right.

[27:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: He wasn't picking up any and so.

[27:05] Portia Pendleton: When she's telling him, basically, I don't like you, and I just I think.

[27:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: I made a mistake. Yeah, like, he's sad because, like, again.

[27:11] Portia Pendleton: Like, duh, you are going to be sad. And he's just like, Why? What do you mean? And it's funny. I mean, it's comedy not but his just whole and then he's being gaslit by Armand because he's right. Like, they did book that room. Armand is kind of messing with him.

[27:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's true.

[27:27] Portia Pendleton: He gets a free boat ride. It was Jennifer Tanya. It was Tanya paid for it. That's why he said it was free. It was not free.

[27:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[27:34] Portia Pendleton: And then he knew that she was having this, like, a moment.

[27:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, he did that on purpose to get back. Exactly. Driving him nuts.

[27:40] Portia Pendleton: Exactly.

[27:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: But again, you're right. Like, Shane was correct. They didn't get the correct room. They did pay for it. They should at least get, like, the refund. But the fact that Shane is, like, so checking over and over, it's so annoying to me. And entitled and like, dude, just enjoy your honeymoon.

[27:57] Portia Pendleton: But he can't.

[27:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: He can't if he doesn't get what he feels like he deserves. I mean, it's like the perfect depiction of entitlement. And then that just dynamic between. Armand and Shane just keeps continuing. And they keep shane, I feel like, just keeps up in the ante. Up in the ante, up in the ant. Like, he just won't let it go. And he's just really getting under Armand's skin. And you imagine Armand's probably worked there for a long time. He's what, five or six years sober until he falls off the wagon because he finds the bag with all the.

[28:28] Portia Pendleton: Drugs in it after Shane.

[28:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's just Shane pushing and pushing and pushing it.

[28:33] Portia Pendleton: But Shane is a trigger.

[28:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And I would imagine he has dealt with Shane day in and day out, like for years. And he just can't take it anymore. The last Shane, the last straw. And it literally is the last Shane. Because unfortunately, Armod dies at the beginning.

[28:49] Portia Pendleton: Do you see that coming?

[28:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, obviously we knew someone died because it opens with I thought it.

[28:55] Portia Pendleton: Was Rachel because of Shane in the airport was like, no, I'm alone. I was like, It's Rachel.

[29:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I was worried she maybe committed suicide or something. I didn't see it coming until the final scene where he's like pooping in.

[29:08] Portia Pendleton: Suitcase after the dinner service.

[29:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[29:11] Portia Pendleton: He's like, he's so manic from drugs and doing cocaine all night.

[29:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's my favorite line of the whole show when he comes back. And he's like, that was the best ******* dinner seating of all time.

[29:22] Portia Pendleton: They're like, yeah, the orchestra was playing while he's managing it.

[29:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, it was just you were really feeling it. Like, you're really in Armand's mind. But again, for Shane to get him fired, right? To just really go that far is why I don't like it.

[29:39] Portia Pendleton: Like, you're ruining people's livelihoods.

[29:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Their livelihoods. Like, okay, they made a mistake. Like, let it go. My God. He can't. But I mean, to just keep really and he doesn't care that someone's going to get fired. He doesn't care that Rachel's like a shell of a human. Maybe Rachel hadn't seen it to that degree.

[29:58] Portia Pendleton: I would have to assume.

[30:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: We got to give her the benefit of that, right? Oh, my god. And then when Armand is pooping in.

[30:05] Portia Pendleton: The luggage, I laughed out loud watching that scene.

[30:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, oh, my god.

[30:11] Portia Pendleton: My husband hadn't seen it at all. And I was like, come look at this. He's like, this is weird. And I was like, It's Armand.

[30:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's pooping in this because he just can't take it anymore.

[30:21] Portia Pendleton: He didn't like wipe. He just pulled his pants up.

[30:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. That's gross. Yeah. I mean, I think he was high, so I don't think he really knew he was doing what's he going to wipe with the shirt. He should have wiped with the shirt. Oh, God.

[30:38] Portia Pendleton: That would have been like the nail in the coffin just smearing your feces all over.

[30:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And what a primitive form of payback. Which, again, all of these characters and their personality traits are so primitive. And they're all having temper tantrums in their own way, even Armand. But I have so much sympathy for Armand because I feel like they just pushed him to a break, literally. You're going to get fired for this. It just makes me sick.

[31:05] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[31:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Armand is like I loved him.

[31:08] Portia Pendleton: I loved when he was, like, lying about finding the bag, like over and over again. We'll have to keep looking. We haven't seen it.

[31:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: So Armand does lie? Yeah, from the jump. He lies and can't admit wrongdoing. But then I'm like, maybe he's like, coached to do that. Maybe they're not supposed to admit fault because then they could get sued or like, who knows what. I don't know.

[31:29] Portia Pendleton: I don't know.

[31:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I just feel like that stuff happens.

[31:30] Portia Pendleton: All the time, though. A reservation gets missed and then it's like then if you're at a nice place, they should then take care of you. If you're paying thousands and thousands of dollars, it's like then they should have been like, yeah, you're right. We'll comp a night for the inconvenience. Or yes, of course we'll give you the difference. Give them a difference, that's all.

[31:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think I think they said they would. It just didn't clear right away. But that doesn't usually clear right away. Right.

[31:54] Portia Pendleton: It's just like when you go to.

[31:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Any hotel and there's like a security charge, it takes a couple of days to come off. Right. Interestingly, though, like, the Mossbacher family does get comped. Yes.

[32:02] Portia Pendleton: Well, I would hope so.

[32:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's a little more than a room mix up.

[32:07] Portia Pendleton: I guess.

[32:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: It'S.

[32:15] Portia Pendleton: So we have Nicole and what's, her husband Mark, and then Olivia and Quinn, and then Paula is the friend. So what do you think of initially Olivia and Paula?

[32:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. I just loved how woke they were, especially compared to their parents. It was just so humorous. I just felt like it was such a perfect depiction of the current generation versus the former generation and the tensions there. Totally accurate, given the political, social, cultural climate we're in. And I just loved love in terms of hated, but found humorous. Nicole's huge sympathy for the white man. Yeah, right. And I'm just like, oh, God.

[33:00] Portia Pendleton: And and I love it so interesting because she's this powerful, like, business CEO and it seems like Mark is like, you know, almost like a stay at home dad. So it's interesting that within that nontypical.

[33:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Role, she is so sympathetic, but she has a white male son and I don't know, I just feel like she is just such a perfect character. Right. Like you would think as a female CEO and I'm assuming a male dominated industry, because we all are, you'd think she would be like this feminist icon.

[33:31] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[33:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, I feel like this is maybe what Rachel's article was saying. Like, well, she's not really she kind of rolled the wave of me too to get to where she was.

[33:41] Portia Pendleton: Maybe that was what it was about.

[33:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe that's true, but she's not really a feminist icon, and I find that interesting. Like, is she insecure in her own power? I don't know. I don't know what to make of it. But I loved when they were at dinner and Olivia was like, mom, good news. I looked and I checked. All the white men are doing just fine. That was funny.

[34:01] Portia Pendleton: I didn't really like Olivia and Paula. Just like, they were mean girls. I mean, besides their woke nature. And Olivia's felt really just hark toward her parents.

[34:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And I think sorry to interrupt you, but I did think the mom and dad were pointing out something accurate. Like, you are so mad at us, but our privilege gives you life, and you're just, like, so unappreciative.

[34:22] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, no. And I think, too, olivia and Paula's relationship felt, like, gross to me right off the get go. And just, like, they weren't really telling each other things. Olivia seemed really suspicious of Paula, and then Paula was really also suspicious of Olivia with knowing about Kai. Like, lying, hiding. No, I didn't go out. And Olivia literally she didn't say, though, I followed you. She kept a lot of that secret. I also was very upset with how they treated Quinn.

[34:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[34:50] Portia Pendleton: Like, really, really mean.

[34:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he was a dog here. Yeah, like, really mean.

[34:53] Portia Pendleton: Sleep in the closet, constant putting him down. He felt a little like he could have been on the spectrum. I could have a little bit of some traits. In other ways, he seemed, like, pretty typical. But some things that Olivia had pointed.

[35:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Out, I was like.

[35:08] Portia Pendleton: And then that made me even more mad that she was treating him like that.

[35:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I could see that. Maybe what we used to call asperger's or something. I think with Olivia and Paula, at first, I thought they were good friends. Like, oh, they met in college. And I did think it was interesting that Paula was a woman of color on this trip and just really curious what's her take on all of this? I don't know how they got all those drugs there. Did they buy them there? Did they smuggle them somehow?

[35:40] Portia Pendleton: Some were not prescribed. Like, a lot of them were prescription.

[35:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Based, but not like the ketamine was the pipe. I loved, though, when someone pulled out, like, how they just kept being like, oh, I forgot. I have this drug. Oh, wait, I have this drug. Oh, my God, I forgot to have my pipe.

[35:55] Portia Pendleton: And you can't fly commercially with that. And they did.

[35:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe they didn't, though.

[35:58] Portia Pendleton: That's a good point. They got, like, on a commercial flight leaving. So, I mean, I'm making an assumption that maybe they did. Maybe they took a PJ down, but we're flying commercial on the way back.

[36:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: But try and save some money.

[36:10] Portia Pendleton: I think Paula, initially you like her because she is kind of calling people out but then I think she really kind of chooses her privilege with Kai. She does not call him when they're going back to the room, and that's, like, a big question of why. I was listening to the HBO podcast covering white Lotus, and they talked about that a lot. Like, she had her phone with her.

[36:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she had Kai's number, and she.

[36:34] Portia Pendleton: Did not contact him. She just looked scared. And then she put her the necklace that he gave her, she threw into the water, and it was just like, what are you doing?

[36:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Oh, I didn't make that connection about, like, she could have called him to warn him or say, like, get out.

[36:48] Portia Pendleton: That was all her idea.

[36:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And he really didn't want to do it, but then pushed it. And again, I think it's because, again, I feel like Olivia and Paula is another transactional relationship. I feel like Olivia uses Paula to be like, see, look, I'm woke. I have friends of color, blah, blah, blah, but not really. Right? And then we learned that I think maybe Paula's with Olivia to go on the trip. Maybe she probably went for free. I don't really know what else they're attracted to each other with in terms of their friendship, because then we learned that Olivia stole Paula's boyfriend. Right. So it's like, why do you see friends with her? Right? Like, why? And then I think that's why Paula didn't tell her about Kai, because she was worried it happened again, rightfully so. And we see that it kind of does start to happen again. And then I think Paula gets so ****** that she concocts this whole plan.

[37:41] Portia Pendleton: Which, again, is not okay. I mean, not okay. Like, it's huge risk.

[37:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Kai even says he's like, the mothbacher family didn't take our land like white people did, but they didn't. So this is just, like, stealing and stuff. But then she does kind of get in his head. And is that manipulative or, like, a vulnerable person?

[38:00] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, it is manipulative, because Paula is then leaving, right? And he stayed. She's like, no, I'm going back.

[38:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have college to get to. I have a life to get to. This is just like, a little fling. But then, yeah, she's using Kai to get back at this family who, again, has taken her on this trip. They're very problematic in their own ways. Like, not to give them a pass, but it hurts everyone. I do think we see remorse. Like, she seems genuinely remorseful and sad.

[38:26] Portia Pendleton: But then I don't know if this I'm sure everything is intentional, always, because they're good writers, but on the last boat trip that they all take, paula is, like, sea sick, and she's just, like, vomiting. And Olivia's just looking at her because she knows what happened. She knows that she did that, and she's just like, oh, yeah, maybe she should have a soda. They are not at that point, interacting really at all. Olivia is realigning with her family, which again in the show seems good, right?

[38:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: That she's finally hugging her mom and reconnecting and things like that. She's maybe seeing her parents as some good and some bad. Not all good or all bad. I did think it was hilarious when Nicole was like coaching Olivia on how to hold her friend's hair back while she's vomiting. As if Olivia doesn't know how to be there for a friend. She's like, pull that piece up, pull that piece up. Paula, I'm going to get you a ginger rail, honey. And I loved how every time Paula needs Tylenol because she's allergic to ibuprofen, paula has this allergy. Paula is just paula's, like she needs.

[39:31] Portia Pendleton: Her out of van.

[39:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. She's just so high maintenance, this Paula friend. It's just so ridiculous in an over the top way.

[39:37] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, they're such a funny family. And we see Quinn stay in Hawai.

[39:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like really happy for him. I don't know. How did you feel about that? We ran back.

[39:45] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, like the show wise, I feel like it's great for him. It makes me think of this interesting little fun fact. So Hawai actually does have a problem with young people, like young runaway land going there and then becoming homeless. Do you know what woofing is?

[40:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: No.

[40:03] Portia Pendleton: It's like work on farm. I think there's another word in there, but a lot of college kids and people do it. So you get free room and board, typically food as well. And you can work at a farm, like for the summer, for like a.

[40:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Marijuana farm or any farm.

[40:16] Portia Pendleton: Any farm.

[40:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay. I said marijuana because I've heard of something like this in Hawai, specifically on a marijuana farm. So I didn't know if it was specific to that or like any farm.

[40:24] Portia Pendleton: So the person that I know went to Maui through a wolfing program was not marijuana farm, it's just like a regular farm. But they asked this person, made sure that they were returning to college. They had all these stipulations because so many people go down there to wolf and then don't leave and then become like homeless. And then there's limited resources. There's limited resources. I thought that was just interesting.

[40:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: That is interesting. I think they go and fetch him. This isn't a home alone situation. I think they have the means and they will go find life there.

[40:55] Portia Pendleton: I know. You go row that boat or canoe.

[40:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: I loved Quinn in the technology, right, where they're like he's like freaking out because they lost all the technology. And then finally he's like, wow, the ocean is really beautiful.

[41:08] Portia Pendleton: He's out there. Yes, he's sleeping. And then that group of men who are doing the paddle, like the rowing around the island really take to him and are really kind, which he seems to not be getting from his family.

[41:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, you can see why he felt wanted and needed and included and that seemed really important to him. But I guess he's only 16, so I can see why his parents wouldn't want him to stay.

[41:33] Portia Pendleton: It makes a lot of sense. And then Mark so we see Mark be, I think, just like inappropriate a lot.

[41:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, talk about boundaries or lactose too.

[41:43] Portia Pendleton: Much with Quinn, with everyone talking about.

[41:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: His swollen testicles, you could just leave it at like, I got a medical.

[41:48] Portia Pendleton: Issue, finds out about his father, who's.

[41:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: A really big reaction to it.

[41:52] Portia Pendleton: He's questioning his life. He seems like in a little bit of a midlife crisis based on all those things he finds out about his dad. And then he also finds out that he does not have cancer. He's just like, cancer scare.

[42:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's a lot going on. And then he's like I can see, though, how learning that about his dad makes him feel like, did I really know you? And then he wants his son to really know him, albeit in an inappropriate way. And I felt like that conversation between him and Nicole was really well written and that she was like, you didn't think about how this would affect me now. I was originally hurt by your actions and now you're hurting me again because you're telling her children I didn't want them to know. And now I'm going to have to explain why I stayed. Why did I stay for these $75,000 bracelets? Yeah, it was really interesting. I loved when Mark was just getting drunker and drunker and drunker and seeing all the guests and just being ridiculous and then asking Armand what's that like to have sex with a man. And Armand's like, you want to find out? Yeah.

[42:49] Portia Pendleton: And he was like he went too far. I just also couldn't I couldn't take him, like, beating on his chest.

[42:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it was perfect, right? It was just like so just the white man, he's got to beat his chest and feel powerful when his wife is the one carnal with the power in the relationship. But then he gets the power by.

[43:09] Portia Pendleton: Tackling Kai and saving them all.

[43:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And then finally like, oh, now we're happy again.

[43:13] Portia Pendleton: It's just trauma bonds people.

[43:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Trauma bonding. Yeah. So what do you think kept Nicole and Mark together? What do you think attracted them and kept them together? Sort of how we've talked about, like, Tanya and Greg, shane and Rachel. What do you think it was with them?

[43:30] Portia Pendleton: I feel like I want to say that they probably started out pretty even and I'm, again, making this all maybe.

[43:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: They met in college. Yeah.

[43:37] Portia Pendleton: The same kind of power dynamic, I feel like. And this is very stereotypical that he cheated as Nicole probably got more and more and more successful. Successful and maybe, like distant, like working, like gone all the time. Not in my opinion, not a reason to cheat. But I think that's maybe what kind of was the worst part of their relationship. And maybe they chose to stay because of their kids, maybe because it was convenient. Maybe they just chose to kind of have a different kind of partnership moving forward. And then now it seems like after, again, this traumatic event with the stolen goods, they feel more in touch with.

[44:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Each other, like, more connected and more maybe even well, I guess tackling someone is such a masculine, heroic thing to do. And she was so mad at him, and then he came after her, so he didn't just leave her alone in her sorrows. And then he sort of did, quote, unquote, save her. Right.

[44:35] Portia Pendleton: I don't think Kai was going to hurt her. I think he was just like, please.

[44:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Stay there so I can get out.

[44:40] Portia Pendleton: Of here situation that then got worse. It's not even like he got caught stealing. It's like then there was like, I'm sure it's all word going to get thrown in there.

[44:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I know. He probably went to jail for a long time. He lost his job, went to jail, like this whole thing backfired. You know who didn't get in trouble? Paula. Yeah, probably. Maybe, though. I don't know. And Olivia just kind of like, using it to really get under Paula's skin. Like, well, hopefully there's no text messages. Right?

[45:05] Portia Pendleton: But can you guys just stop being friends? Maybe that would be it's a toxic relationship choice.

[45:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, were any of the relationships we saw healthy? No. Silence. I know.

[45:19] Portia Pendleton: I really don't I don't think so.

[45:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think the last thing I wanted to end on is Belinda, who I loved. But what do you think it is about Belinda where she gets used over and over?

[45:33] Portia Pendleton: I think it's got to be like a mix of environmental so her role, right. Like working even specifically in a spa where you're doing different kind of healing things.

[45:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: And specifically a spa at the White Lotus, like a very bougie, high end place with a specific type of clientele, maybe.

[45:51] Portia Pendleton: So then there's the environment piece. And I think also, maybe she's really just on the simple side, like a really good listener. And a lot of people aren't used to that or a lot of people are. Like, she seems really awesome.

[46:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: She seems very maternal, too.

[46:07] Portia Pendleton: Real. And a lot of yeah. So maybe that's unexpected from for some, especially Tanya. Like, Belinda, even though I think was younger, was still more maternal.

[46:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maternal.

[46:19] Portia Pendleton: Same with Rachel. Rachel kind of went to her. Then Belinda, again, was being really appropriate. Gave her a tissue, asked her if.

[46:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: She was all right, but then gave her cell phone number. So it's always like with Belinda, yes, there's some institutional boundaries right, that are loose because you're catering to this clientele. But then why should give her your cell phone number? Is it because you're worried about her? I think she could really do some work in therapy. As to be holding on to, like, yes, you're worried about her because you're a compassionate human and you're not responsible for her.

[46:53] Portia Pendleton: Maybe there's something in her life with feeling overly responsible, and that's not a diagnosis by any means.

[46:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: But that happens a lot with it does.

[47:01] Portia Pendleton: Patients who are so kind and so giving, they often have the worst boundaries.

[47:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[47:07] Portia Pendleton: And they get used and they don't take care of themselves.

[47:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: They don't prioritize themselves in big ways and then small ways. So I feel like Belinda could really use some good quality therapy, and I.

[47:20] Portia Pendleton: Think she could be in an amazing place.

[47:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[47:24] Portia Pendleton: I think the others could get therapy and make changes. But Belinda seems like right on the.

[47:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Cusp where she just I feel like she has the most potential to me absolutely. Than the others.

[47:32] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. We also didn't I'll just briefly mention we saw the substance use. So Olivia and Paula kind of playing around with that. And then we obviously see Armand. And then I would also take a gander that Tanya seems like she's probably on a Benzo, drinking out kind of out of it.

[47:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, really out of it. Kind of dazed and detached on the cusp of slurring words, but not quite there. Yeah. No. She strikes me as someone who's been on, like, Bendy's a long time and now in her time of grief is freaking out, which happens. Like we've said before, we all regress when you're under stress or grieving or things like that. And I thought the show just did such a good job displaying such interesting interpersonal dynamics and such toxic and unhealthy relationships. Also, at this point in time in our culture, it was the perfect time for it to come out. I felt like it touched on really big cultural themes, political themes, societal themes in such a smart way where I would like to rewatch it in like, 20 years and just see what do I think then.

[48:44] Portia Pendleton: I'm super excited for White Lotus season two.

[48:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. What do you think happens? Well, I know that Tanya stayed and.

[48:52] Portia Pendleton: I know that it's all new characters. I did hear that season one has just, like, the theme of money and privilege. And obviously there's privilege in season two, but season two is more like sex.

[49:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: So we'll have to see.

[49:05] Portia Pendleton: Stay tuned. It will be coming up this next month or this current in a couple of weeks.

[49:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: So after this, we're going to release Legally Blonde, another fun, light hearted episode paying homage to Jennifer Coolidge. Is it homage or Maj? I don't know. I'm not that fancy. And then after that, we'll do White Lotus season two.

[49:24] Portia Pendleton: Awesome.

[49:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: So thank you for listening. Please rate review and subscribe and you can find us at Analyze Scripts on Instagram and Analyze Scripts podcast on TikTok. Thanks.

[49:35] Portia Pendleton: Bye.

[49:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: See you next Monday. Bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are discussing the 1999 cult classic "America Pie." Woof, watching this movie was super cringey. It is rated R for a reason, there is a lot of sexual content and while we use pretty professional language to discuss it, make sure to listen away from little one's ears. We reminisce on the actors, clothing and music, while the movie draws some laughs there are also some serious topics discussed such as consent, rights to privacy and dare we say "female empowerment," (I know, just listen to the episode for the context). We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy.

[00:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. We are so excited to talk about little little interesting movie, some some deeply problematic themes. But American pie.

[01:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: American Pie. Do you guys remember that movie? When did that even come?

[01:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: 99.

[01:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was definitely in, like was I in middle school? High school.

[01:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I was in late elementary school. And I have a little story for you.

[01:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.

[01:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So if you are listening to this later or listening to it right when it comes out, the idea is that it's summer. We're releasing this in July. This is also a part of our Jennifer Jennifer Coolidge. So if you like Jennifer Coolidge, be sure to catch more episodes that should be near to the release of this one. But so american Pirates, released in 1999. I was definitely in elementary school, but older, and I was not allowed to see the movie. I was going to say, obviously rated R for sure. Lots of sexual content. So I went to a friend's house after school, and they had a nanny and who was like, an older woman. It wasn't, like, a teen. And she was going to take us, three of us, to American Pie in theaters. And I remember calling my mom, like, I didn't know what it was. And I called her, and I was like, yeah, we're going to go to the movies. We're going to see American Pie. My mom was like, what? No, you're not. No, you're not. And I was so mad because she came and picked me up. And everyone else got to see it.

[02:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: They're watching it.

[02:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. I don't think so.

[02:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay, we'll give them the benefit, maybe.

[02:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know.

[02:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.

[02:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I remember being so mad, like, furious that I didn't get to see American Pie and now watching it back as an adult. So I haven't seen this movie fully in years.

[02:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, maybe decades, honestly. Right. This movie is can you imagine if you saw it as like, a fourth.

[02:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Grader or fifth grader for the most part? I think 90% of it would have gone over my head. But some of the scenes where Jason Biggs, aka jim, is humping the apple pie and you see his buttocks. And then the other scene where you do with Nadia full *******.

[03:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[03:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And and you know hands going under clothes.

[03:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, it's you know that masturbation scenes.

[03:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[03:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know, that you'd see.

[03:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And I'm just curious, like, at what age do you even know what that is? Because, like, little kids, you're exploring your body, stuff like that. But if I was, like, four watching the movie oh, my God.

[03:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hopefully PSA. Don't let a four year old watch this.

[03:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But it's like, when is the line where it's, like, you start to get actually what's going on and how inappropriate it is?

[03:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Probably, like, middle school, like 7th grade, 8th grade. But, like, in in these in this day and age with, like, technology and stuff, I feel like kids are exposed to sexual content so much earlier. It's, like, the thing that keeps me up at night. I think there was a study that came out, or maybe not a study, but, like, an article that said a lot of children these days are exposed to ****, I think as early as, like, fourth grade.

[04:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yeah.

[04:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Which is really scary. And I might not be quoting that accurately, but it was, like, four years earlier than I would have naturally anticipated. And that's so scary. Like, you're saying, how do you wrap your head around that and make sense of is that quote unquote, like, normal sexual interactions or ways of showing intimacy when so much of it, even in this movie, crosses the line, and oftentimes at the expense of women.

[04:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yeah. I mean, just thinking of the one thing, which I will you know, we'll start with the positive okay. That I was like, wow, watching the movie is that every teen, even though they're playing their 20s, filming looks like a teen. They have textured skin, there's bumps. You can tell there's makeup over some acne. They're shiny faces. Their teeth have they're not chiclet, perfect veneers. They're real teeth that are not I think they're probably, like, whitened, but they're very normal, appropriate teeth. Bodies still feel like 90 big ***** guinea waist. But still, even with that being said, I feel like a little bit more normal than what you might see today.

[05:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, for sure.

[05:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That was like a breath of fresh air and then just reminded me of all the content that we see now. Even, again, like, an appropriate show for kids that's not animated. It's like, the people are so airbrushed and have veneers oftentimes, and it's just so unrealistic. And that's what's everywhere. Even if it's a good kid show that is positive, that is message. Right.

[05:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: I remember Miley Cyrus, I think, has talked about her time on Hannah Montana, and I think she I forget, like, the word they use, but I think it's called, like, flippers or flappers. Like the type of fake teeth that they make these kids wear. And again, just how curated and perfected these people are on TV. And also, it just creeps me out to think about what old white man executive is deciding what these young children should look like or what these early 20s actors portraying teenagers should look like. I can't think about it too deeply.

[06:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And I mean, really recently, all the stuff that has come out about Dan Shriiber from Nickelodeon and all of his.

[06:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: I haven't heard about that.

[06:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That people cannot speak on. And then also just thinking of so the new show The Idol on HBO just came out and a lot of people are like, criticizing Sam Levinson's.

[06:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: He did euphoria right.

[06:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Which we're going to cover Gross with women and then Stan Schineider with women. With kids. Anyway.

[07:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: But yeah.

[07:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So the movie American Pie kind of opens with a scene about masturbation. So the parents kind of walk in on Jim masturbating. And then that leads to some pretty awkward and comedic it's a comedy conversations about masturbation and sex and sex between.

[07:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Covad Jim and his dad, played by Eugene Levy, who I love. And I love his eyebrows. But oh, my gosh, all of those scenes with him giving him the nudie magazines and being like, okay, extend this center fold. And this is a ******. And just like really going to town. You could feel the cringe. It was perfect.

[07:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[07:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really good. It's so funny. And I'm sure every parent and child feels cringey when you're having those discussions. At least they were having them, though, right? Like so many people go through life having no discussions. And that's got to be confusing.

[08:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Or you're getting only your information online.

[08:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Like from **** or from some other source that isn't reliable, I guess, is the word.

[08:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, like real. That's true. So basically, Jim and his friends so Jim, Oz, and the other, the third male, decide to all lose their virginities prior to going to prom. Right?

[08:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, I think they wanted to lose it before going to college. And then maybe they all decided, like, promise something like that.

[08:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: One of the lines during the scene was so gross, I have to pull it up. So get it right. It was let me see. We're going to fight for every man who deserves to get laid and doesn't.

[08:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, wow, what a cause to take up arms.

[08:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So basically, men deserve to be laid whenever they would like to be, despite consent of the other person, however horrible. Icky line. Then one of them says it needs to be valid, consensual sex. Good. So it cannot be from an escort or prostitute, and it cannot obviously be.

[09:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: An assault non consensual.

[09:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I liked that even in 1999, they did say that very specifically.

[09:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think that's pretty big.

[09:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There was some manipulation we see throughout the show of trying to get laid or have sex. So anyway, one of the many and.

[09:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like gross. Yeah. I feel like teenage boys trying to get laid by prom seems like a pretty stereotypical storyline, right? This isn't the first movie to have this goodness, groundbreaking plot, but for some reason, this one really was successful and jumped out. And it was, even all these years later, still pretty funny. It was a pretty entertaining movie to watch, even decades later. So I wonder what contributed to the success.

[10:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I looked up a lot of the cast just to get their names, and many of them have not done really anything else that I think that they would like. Stiffler hasn't jason really biggs. Really only did his cameo kind of in Orange is the New Black. He hasn't really done much that's they.

[10:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Have a lot of sequels, too.

[10:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yes. And that's what is giving them the paycheck still. And then, obviously, Eugene Levy has been in so many things. Schitt's Creek. Love it. And then his newer show, which is.

[10:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: I watch oh, yeah, the traveling one, right?

[10:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's like the anxious traveler.

[10:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is he really nervous?

[10:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yeah. It's such a good show. You could watch it with your family. It's beautiful places that he's exploring. So, anyway and then some of the other people.

[10:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: But Jennifer coolidge, man.

[10:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was a lot.

[10:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, I feel like there was a gap. And she's had a real renaissance.

[11:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Natasha Leone was in it.

[11:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I forgot that she was in it. Like, Tara Reid obviously was in it, but so a lot of them haven't really been in big blockbusters since then. I mean, Tara Reid was in Sharknado, like, one through 100, probably. Yeah, it seems like they've all had careers, but maybe nothing has really escalated except maybe Jennifer Coolidge. She's really having a heyday right now.

[11:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: John Cho isn't a lot.

[11:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: He plays John in the movie.

[11:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He is in Harold and Kumar. A lot of them were just also, like, actors of the time. Teen stoner or sex movies. But anyway. So did you have any moments in the movie where you were just like, I literally want to cringe and throw up? Besides the whole movie that was really disgusting.

[11:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: The one where the girl was being filmed without her knowledge.

[11:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's disgusting in a different sense.

[12:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay, what are you thinking?

[12:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The one scene that I just had to look away was when.

[12:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: The other.

[12:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Guy that I can't think of, his name is with his girlfriend.

[12:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do I look up the name on.

[12:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The bed and she is giving him oral sex, and he ********** into the beer cup.

[12:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then Stifler drinkler comes up with.

[12:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The girl to try to have sex. And then she keeps almost drinking it.

[12:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then he finally does and he knows frothy.

[12:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I can feel my stomach just churn.

[12:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: That was disgusting.

[12:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Repulsive.

[12:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, shocking.

[12:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, again, like, picture an eight year old watching this, which is why.

[12:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God, please shouldn't yeah, exactly. Even like a mid 30s year old, it's, like, really gross. And you kept being like, no, don't drink it. Yeah, that was disgusting and cringe. Like, in a legit. Disgusting. Like, gross. Like potty humor. But then there were definitely parts of this movie that just I don't think would fly today. Like that scene with Nadia. Well, first of all, so she's coming over to Jim's house to study.

[13:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

[13:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, she wants to study. This is, like, the exchange student.

[13:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I think she says interior motive.

[13:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, she does?

[13:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, I thought she really wanted Jim.

[13:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's where I got really confused. I was like, Why did oh, no. Because she had ballet and then wanted to change undressed. Right. I was really confused.

[13:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then they studied, which I think Jim would have loved, too. He was at their house. Maybe he sits near her. He seems really nervous and shy.

[13:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And then she masturbates, and then somehow it's broadcasted on a webcam.

[13:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So Jim had the idea, which, again, this is illegal, in case anyone didn't know, to film him and Nadia potentially honestly doing anything.

[14:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I think he was hoping maybe they'd make out or maybe hoping it'd go all the way. But, yeah, fully illegal. Jim and the rest of humanity don't do that. And even if it weren't illegal, it's so icky and, like, gross. Right.

[14:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, it's not consensual.

[14:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Non consensual. That is the definition. Right.

[14:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, accidentally, right. The total dream is sent to everyone in the school. So what I think is how it gets comedic relief is that because then Jim goes back. They're like, oh, man, she's in your bedroom literally naked. Like, come on. And he goes back, and then she makes him, which is, like, the differential power then which makes it then funny, like strip. And he knows that he's being recorded. So you see him trying to throw the shirt and cover it because God.

[14:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Forbid ye be exposed in that way. Right. Yeah. With knowledge, at least. Right.

[14:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, yeah. Gross. Consent is very important. I think that should be really the biggest part of parents Caregivers, whomever talking about and schools, maybe in sexual education talking about sex.

[15:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it starts even hello earlier than that. I feel like all the way to daycare preschool. Exactly. Personal space. Even with, like, tickling. When someone says stop. Stop means stop. When someone says no, no means that. Like, you can start teaching that to really young kids super early and just laying the groundwork. And I feel like at least what I see of society these days is sort of hedging that way compared to maybe back in the 90s. But definitely that's a good groundwork to lay. And then when you talk about sexual consent, super important. And yeah, so this movie had, like, mixed messages. Like, sometimes they were on point, maybe even ahead of their time with thinking about consent, and other times, they really missed the mark. And we're kind of trying to make a joke of it. And again, it's like, well, this was a really successful movie. I guess people thought it was funny. But now when you watch it, or at least me, I'm just like, well.

[16:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think if we think back to 1999, you know what I think of in 1999?

[16:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Backstreet Boys Millennium album. That's what I think of.

[16:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You love them?

[16:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love them.

[16:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was more of an in sync gal.

[16:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's okay. We're showing you we can reach across the aisle.

[16:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So in 1989, I think recording on phones, personal cameras, right. Was very nuanced.

[16:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, you see that Jim's probably pretty privileged to have a webcam. This wasn't, like, a normal thing. Right.

[16:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I think if even thinking back to the earlier 2000s with flip phones and just, like, recalling our own experience with when did you get a phone? When did your phone have a camera? And then thinking back to middle school, high school or college, wherever you kind of land with nude pictures going around. And again, I think that it was really nuanced and people didn't know or have expectations of what could happen. And I think one of the biggest differences is now we do know, and there's so many laws now that have been put into act to really deal with the technology.

[17:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And again, what really bugged me about this part of the movie is not just that it happened, but then that she was punished. Like, she was sent back off to wherever she came from as an exchange student. And it seemed like Jim could just go school. Right.

[17:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Made fun of him, but not really.

[17:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: They also were like, yeah, man, you're the best. But he didn't get expelled. He didn't get suspended. He didn't get charged with a crime, which, like, he certainly could nowadays. So that was disappointing. But again, maybe on par with 1999. I think so, probably. Unfortunately, I still think people can get away with things.

[17:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yeah. No, I agree. I just think it was like, ha ha. More of the Boys Club, certainly, then it was.

[17:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Even the fact that this was, like, in the movie and the movie was wildly successful, I don't remember there being a lot of outrage about this part.

[18:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the new I think they thought that they were doing well at this, and maybe they were at the time, but so if we think about Band Camp Girly so it's the dynamic between Jim, right, initially trying to have power over Nadia. Right. So, like, having the male role, I'm going to get her to have sex with me. It's like then Band Camp Girl at the end is right. Like, she's had sex many times.

[18:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[18:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She is teaching him, but he kind.

[18:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of, like, gravitated toward her because he thought maybe that she'd be she's, like, so demure. She plays the flute in the band. Like, she might be what you might have called back then, an easy lay or something, and that she would be.

[18:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So lucky to have sex with him.

[18:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[18:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Versus then it being kind of the other way around. I think they started to and I don't know if this was intentional or.

[18:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not, but they started exploring that dynamic.

[19:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Conversation of we're going to make fun of really gross things, but then we can make it funny because we're like switching female. She's actually the one who has all.

[19:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: More experience and she's the one who leaves the next day. All of a sudden he's really into.

[19:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, and that's not a typical reaction. Right.

[19:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then you see it sort of like sparks his interest. And I think we know they go on to get married in, like, a future movie. What do you think about Stifler's mom?

[19:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So she is definitely portrayed as, I'm assuming, this cougar who allows wild drinking parties, which again, you're not allowed to do, can be.

[19:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think there are still parents who do that. But yeah, again, I don't know because I wasn't really hip on the laws back in the 90s, but I know there are at least some laws in some states nowadays where parents can get in serious trouble for having parties where kids are drinking underage.

[20:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. And instead of like I think they can trace it back now better. Like before, if my parents allowed me to have a wild party and then someone on their way home died, right? Like from a drinking and driving accident. It's like before, I think in the so on and so forth, it was like they made that mistake, that person. But now it's like they will go back to who bought the booze? What adult did this and press charges? So, anyway, so Stifler's mom is definitely a cougar. She is a divorcee, having some it seems like money. She's got a lot of lake house.

[20:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: She was like at the party, though, I forgot that part, that she was.

[20:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like there.

[20:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: In the basement drinking her scotch.

[20:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that is as she said it, she likes her scotch just like she likes her partner's, men, whatever, 18 years aged.

[21:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're, like, feels really gross.

[21:06] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But again, she's a woman. Right. And intentionally, I think even then, if.

[21:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: It had been a day, a man.

[21:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Coming onto a girl, that would have been like, gross.

[21:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: It wouldn't have been funny at all.

[21:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But this is, like, funny because Stiller's mom is a milk, as they talk about and learn the lingo, what's a milk? So I thought that was funny and I was like, did we learn what a milk was from this movie?

[21:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, because we all know what a milk is. Maybe explain it. I wonder if that was even a.

[21:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Term before that's what I mean.

[21:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Someone looked that up on Urban Dictionary and send us a DM. That's interesting.

[21:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So anyway, it seems like she goes on to have sexual intercourse with another male character whose name I cannot recall.

[22:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is he the one who was afraid to **** at school, though.

[22:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[22:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I thought that was interesting that the guy with the phobia about using public bathrooms gets with Stifler's mom. It was just like and pre that.

[22:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He has started all these rumors with the help of Michelle Leon's character to talk about how cool he is.

[22:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: So he gets laid. Oh, yeah, that's right.

[22:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: One of the rumors is that he beat up Stifler. So Stifler gives him some sort of a laxative.

[22:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[22:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then he ends up having to use the bathroom at school and oh my goodness.

[22:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: No other I mean, what a type of inadvertent exposure therapy, I guess, right?

[22:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: ERP just no one no therapy again, would non consensual.

[22:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was interesting. As I was watching this, I did find myself wondering does Jim have social anxiety disorder? I don't know. What are your thoughts about that? He always just seemed really nervous in social situations.

[22:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like fear of judgment more so than others. And then thinking also like that it is really common for teenagers to have more of a focus on what others are thinking of them. But he feels I'm sure all of them felt that way, but he felt more intuitively, so could be diagnosable, but worth exploring.

[23:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And I liked the relationship for the most part between Tara Reed's character and her boyfriend and how it seems like they'd been together for a while and it seemed like she really wanted their first intimate moment together to be perfect. That was kind of like the stereotypical desire of losing your virginity on prominery, wanting it all to feel great and then sort of hearing her perspective about it compared to his perspective, where he just wanted he was like eager to get it, to do it and keep doing it and then go to college again. I thought was pretty stereotypical of, like, this is what girls want. This is what boys want. That's not always true, but at least it was sweeter than some of the other relationships or dynamics we were seeing depicted. Remember Oz was like the jock, the stereotypical jock who played I think it was lacrosse. And then it seemed like he only joined the show choir hoping to hook up with Heather or with someone, maybe. Again, this power dynamic that you identified portia, I think, keeps coming out over and over that they're trying to pick like the quote unquote nerdy girls thinking they'll have a better chance with that and like, I don't appreciate that.

[24:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[24:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't appreciate that depiction very much.

[24:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[24:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: And by that I mean I don't like it.

[24:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, but they did feel like the most consensual Heather and Ozone.

[24:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I don't think they even had sex. I think they just spent that night together and he was falling for her. But again, I just feel like that's just so stereotypical. It's like I don't know.

[24:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I mean, the movie was I think I laughed. Not that often, and most of the time I just cringed and was like.

[25:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: OOH, yeah, yikes, yikes. And just yeah, thinking about like, way back then, it was so popular. It was, like, wildly popular.

[25:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Ten of them.

[25:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[25:16] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So they kept making three American Wedding, american Vacation or something like that. I think there are talks of like.

[25:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: A reunion movie or something. Yeah, I could see that. Especially nowadays with all the reunions being really popular and like, bringing back stuff from the past into the present day. I could totally see that happening.

[25:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just I'm scrolling Google right now. People magazine came out with in April 18, 2023. So a couple of months ago. American podcast. Where are they now? So it's like People still it's definitely piece.

[25:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's definitely part of our culture, for sure. And it's just interesting. Like, why?

[25:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think because part of it was like nuanced, right? It was, like, weirdly in a really back ended, not at all appropriate way now, but I don't even want to say it because it's not true, but like, oh, like female empowerment. Like, these guys learned, right? Like, that the girls were the one who were, like, running the show or they actually were their own sexual people.

[26:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: They had, like, autonomy, they had their.

[26:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Own consent, they had their own dreams.

[26:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Urges, urges, fantasy, all of that.

[26:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought you were like, no, because you're right, it's not.

[26:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I can see what you're saying. Yeah, it's kind of like the narrative a little bit. Like we're tiptoeing toward female empowerment. I feel like that's a strong phrase, but I get where you're going with that.

[26:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You're like, let's talk about American Pie and female empowerment. That'll be the title of this episode.

[26:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: But no, I see what you're saying. And maybe especially for 1999, that the era of, like, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera and all these other sexualized females. Yeah, maybe that.

[27:06] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And there's so much now. I mean, we could go on a four hour rant just about how so much has come out now of the media treatment of the pop star females at the Times. And I think even uniquely Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake's breakup and everything, all the negative stuff was put on Brittany and even the questions journalists asked, et cetera, et cetera.

[27:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: And at that time, there was a huge emphasis on the female pop stars maintaining their virginity. Right. That was a big thing that was talked about and then soon ish after that. Then it was like the Jonas Brothers and Miley Cyrus with their purity rings, and that was like a big emphasis and yet right juxtaposed to how sexually they were dressed and viewed as sexual objects in that way. So, yeah, you're right. I think even just thinking back to the female characters in this movie, like, the clothing they wore, I didn't think for the most part, I didn't think of it as overly sexualized. It seemed like pretty normal like skirts and polo shirt.

[28:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Really high school typical of the time. Even trends, right? That's what was in cardigans.

[28:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. But not like super low cut or super, super short or anything like that. And then as everything plays out, the women do end up having a lot of the power all the way from Stifler's mom all the way down to bandcamp girl Michelle. Michelle yeah. And I do have to say, I know everyone remembers her comment about bandcamp, but I forgot that she said at some point one time at bandcamp, we all thought it'd be funny to play our instruments upside down. And I was like, I actually think that'd be really funny and kind of fun. So I appreciate that.

[28:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I loved how she just kept saying, this one time of Bangkok, this one time of Bangkok.

[28:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you see like, he's getting so really tired.

[28:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then she makes the comment about.

[28:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Where she put the and he was like, what?

[28:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then all of a sudden, right, it's like and that's where the tide switch. That's when she's like, come on upstairs.

[29:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. She's like, oh, yeah, that's what Pink camp is. It's like 5% playing your instrument and 95%, like having sex and none of the counselors know.

[29:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, the other scene that I was just thinking of is pre stiffler drinking the beer. Is that when she's like, oh, but I don't want you to tell anyone. He's trying to convince that girl to have sex or whatever. And he's literally which, again, I thought they just did such a good job covering this. He's like rolling his eyes, being like, yeah, I just want to have sex with you, and then I'm going to talk to everybody about it. And he's like, no, I would never tell anyone about this. This is our time. This is special.

[29:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Such a liar.

[29:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So gross.

[29:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I feel like that happens, at least back then. I hope now it doesn't happen.

[29:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Up power, we talk about a lot of non consensual. Sex is mostly not being attacked, right? It's mostly different power dynamics. It can just be a person with social popularity or more social standing in school who you feel like you really want to be liked and you really want their approval. And that's, I'd say, the most common form of non consensual.

[30:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I think that's a really important message to get across. Portia that I feel like the stereotype of a non consensual sexual encounter or assault or rape is like being attacked by a stranger in the stairway in a parking garage or something like that. And that does happen. It's terrible. But way more often, it's what you're describing, where it is someone you know, someone maybe you feel like you can trust or you want to trust or you want to be liked by. And there is this power dynamic, whether it's age, social status. I'm thinking of like at your place of work. Like a boss or someone with some sort of power or authority over you. And it can go both ways, which we see portrayed with stiflers.

[31:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think just again, we were kind of like, what are we going to talk about with this movie? And there's some good social commentary, I think, of the times, which is always interesting to reflect on. But also, just like I mean, a big theme of it is consent.

[31:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[31:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And with sex comes consent, and teenagers are having sex.

[31:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's happening. It has happened since the dawn of time. It will continue happening. Yeah.

[31:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So kudos to Eugene's attempts at talking about the birds and the bees with Jim and just pointing things out. Again, I don't think he really shared ultimately helpful, this is what you should be doing, this is how it's safe, et cetera. He just gave him some magazines and then was like, so the pie. Let's talk about that.

[31:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: But how terrified would you be if you came home and found your son having sex with the pie? I guess it's better than some things.

[32:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it is. I'd still just being a therapist. I'd probably be like, let's come from a place of curiosity, and maybe you don't feel comfortable talking to me about it. I'm going to have you talk about it with someone else. And maybe it's only one session, but I just want you to talk about.

[32:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: It and get some facts right.

[32:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then that can be one session. Or maybe you want to go back, and then there can be more.

[32:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Really interesting.

[32:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I remember having the conversation.

[32:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Not ignoring it, not brushing it under the rug. Not saying, we'll just tell your mother we ate it all so good. Oh, my gosh. Again, it just really personified. Just, like, teenage awkwardness and angst and cringiness and wanting to be like and.

[32:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Wanting friends and nervous about the transition after high school. I know some of it, again, is, like, super normal. And still, till the dawn of time, or until something crazy happens and changes how we should, this will always continue to be right.

[33:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Any final thoughts as we wrap up?

[33:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I would say watch or beware. And don't let eight year olds watch this, please.

[33:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Dear God, don't. I think it's rated R for a reason. It's very R. Yeah, it's very R. All right.

[33:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Cool.

[33:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Analyze Scripts. Please rate, review and subscribe and share with your friends near and far. Follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts and on TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast, and we'll see you next Monday for White Lotus Season One, and continue to.

[33:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Follow along with us all month long with Jennifer Coolidge.

[33:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Jennifer coolidge. July. If she wants to come on the pod, you are welcome.

[33:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay, bye bye.

[33:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Content are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with.

[34:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine.

[34:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are joined by Dr. Jessi Gold to analyze season two of "Yellowjackets." In this episode we discuss cults, schizophrenia, catatonia and the ghastly depiction of ECT.  We see many different depictions of trauma responses in this season, some from psychological stressors and others from their worsening physical state. Were you as shocked as we were to learn the mouse is actually dead? Was that a hallucination due to starvation or psychological trauma, the answer is probably both. "Yellowjackets" keeps us guessing and cringing through all nine episodes this season, but we are ready for a break and hope the actors are practicing some self care!  We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Back to another episode of Analyze scripts. We are so excited to once again be joined by Dr. Jesse Gold today to talk about the second season of Showtime's hit show Yellow Jackets. Thanks so much for coming back, Jesse.

[01:12] Dr. Jessi Gold: Thanks for having me.

[01:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: I do have to say, this show is really messed up. I feel like season one was a lot, and then we sort of watched it really quick to record our first episode and then watch season two really quick. And I was like, I had to take some breaks, I'll be honest, along the way, because it got really intense really fast.

[01:34] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[01:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe like a two out of ten on a scale of one to ten. So not like fully this season.

[01:43] Dr. Jessi Gold: I think it was like last season, they were like, this is a show about cannibals, but you never saw it.

[01:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[01:50] Dr. Jessi Gold: This season was like, remember when you're walking?

[01:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Here it is. Yeah, here it is.

[01:58] Dr. Jessi Gold: They danced around it in a way that was like, fine last season. And this season they were like, all.

[02:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, here you go.

[02:06] Dr. Jessi Gold: And there are definitely parts where you're like, yeah, I can't watch it.

[02:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, I know. I told Portia when we were watching it, I stopped right around when Shauna was about to deliver the baby because I was so scared they were going to eat the baby. I was like, I can't watch that. And I think you actually had to tell me. They don't I looked up the spoiler.

[02:28] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, they post on their TikTok, right? Like, the cast being like, we do not eat the baby. You can watch it, I guess, trigger non warning. And I was like, we do a.

[02:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Lot of things, but that's where we draw the line. Gosh. So, I mean, I think we have to get started since this was really early in the first episode, ECT and the depiction of ECT. Right. Like, you probably felt as good about that as I did, which is not very good.

[02:57] Dr. Jessi Gold: It is the first time I was disappointed.

[03:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, right.

[03:02] Dr. Jessi Gold: Last season, I was really excited about all of their mental health portrayals, and I thought they were really thoughtful, and their trauma portrayals were really thoughtful. So I was super excited for this season, despite yes, I'm not, like, a creepy show person, so it's not like surprising that that wouldn't be my genre of choice, but I really liked it for a lot of the reasons I was talking about health wise. And so watching that and seeing that so early on, I was like, oh no, taking such a wrong, unnecessary turn. And yeah, I think inherently if you came back from something catatonic possible, you got ECT, right?

[03:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[03:44] Dr. Jessi Gold: The actual treatment of choice for being like catatonic, I think who has schizophrenia or some version of a psychotic right, comes back catatonic. It seems we have like a tiny, tiny, tiny glimpse in that.

[03:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was going to ask you. I thought it was catatonia as well. Porsche, are you familiar with catatonia as much? How would you describe catatonia, Jesse, to someone who doesn't know what that word means, they're different forms.

[04:09] Dr. Jessi Gold: Some people have hyperactive, completely not moving.

[04:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Speaking kind of like Lottie, like Lottie.

[04:17] Dr. Jessi Gold: Looks like she had it can be a reaction to a lot of things, like medication, like psychosis, like some medical issues inside, internally, like a medical issue. I haven't seen it a ton of times, but I have seen it sometimes it amazingly responds to just like an act.

[04:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Have you ever seen that? Because that is amazing. So portia. Sometimes when you're catatonic, these people are usually brought to the Er and people are either like they're not moving or eating or they're going to the bathroom on themselves. They literally can't move from here to five inches away, or they're like they're being really bizarre and bouncing off the walls and making weird noises and just such a drastic change in behavior really acutely quickly, like for an unknown reason. And then eventually catatonia gets on the differential and you think, let's give them a little Addivan. And so you'll give them like a push of ivy. Addivan, wait a couple only like 2 hours and a lot of times they start to wake up. Then you give them another one if it's working. And that's one of the coolest things in psychiatry is you can see it work so fast. I feel like in mental health that's so rare. Maybe like Add and Stimulants, you see work really quick. But this is so drastic. Like, I remember one woman in the ICU, wasn't eating for days, couldn't move, had something called waxy flexibility where if you put their arm up, it stays. They never bring it down. Or you can position them in an odd position, they stay there. That's part of catatonia. That's one of the telltale diagnostic signs. We give her the Adavan, a couple of hours later she's eating. It's wild. Anyway, so I do think lottie was catatonic. I think that's what they were going for. And even if they weren't, they did.

[06:02] Dr. Jessi Gold: A good job in an offshoot. But I do think that as far as things you see in psychiatry, it's interesting, but I have heard from the perspective of a patient who was catatonic, that they understood everything that was going on but couldn't speak or function. And wow, sometimes when people were learning from them because they had certain symptoms, like there's this thing called echolalia where they eat everything that you're saying that they knew. They saw that and didn't like that but couldn't say anything. So after that, I've been hesitant sometimes to actually teach some of it, even though it's rare and interesting. And again, one of the few things you see really get better, which is really nice. But I would assume, who knows how long she wasn't speaking and functioning in the wilderness.

[06:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know now she's trapped like that. Can you imagine?

[06:59] Dr. Jessi Gold: And I would assume her parents were already thought she was dead, but on top of it, we're like, oh, gosh, she's been off meds for like two years. No, I think ECP is a treatment of choice for catatonia. ECT is a very successful medication or.

[07:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, treatment super successful, which is unfortunate.

[07:21] Dr. Jessi Gold: Psychiatry because everyone flew over the cuz nest, really. And I think that book and that movie and that portrayal have really continued so much that even, like, generationally people who have absolutely never read the book.

[07:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or true know about it.

[07:41] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[07:41] Dr. Jessi Gold: In that movie, I don't know if parents told them or what, because, you know, they didn't see some old school Jack Nickson movie.

[07:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[07:49] Dr. Jessi Gold: There's something where you mentioned ECT to people and their faces so concerned and they think it's the worst thing you can possibly tell them, but it's by far one of our most successful treatments, especially in situations like this. But in acute suspitality in pregnancy.

[08:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[08:06] Dr. Jessi Gold: Postpartum psychosis wouldn't imagine it's as good as it is. And that stigma that exists for a very long time, very much created by the media, to be honest, really has made it hard for us to sell it as a treatment, despite how successful it is. And so for this show, which is new, to bring it back into the fold. And bring it back into the fold. So almost like quickly flashes, but the flashes you get look really and it's not the ECP. Even in the what would that have been like the 90s, right?

[08:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. It wouldn't have been like that.

[08:47] Dr. Jessi Gold: Some of the things from what blew over the cuckoo sense is like, the technology was older, anesthesia wasn't as good. There's things where you can tell that things have evolved for sure since then. But even in the 90s, it didn't look like what they're showing. What they're showing looks like probably the equivalent of the fact that they still go clear with paddles in medical shows. Like these little pads that are stick.

[09:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: On and so dramatic and heavy going to hurt you.

[09:17] Dr. Jessi Gold: I know that Er doctors think that's ridiculous because they have most of them never even saw it ever done like that. I feel like what they show for ECT is like that version the OG when ECT was discovered version.

[09:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Also when they say seize, that's not what actually happens.

[09:40] Dr. Jessi Gold: The purpose is to induce a seizure in your brain. But it's like so minor and the only way you really even know there's.

[09:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: A seizure is like your toe brain.

[09:50] Dr. Jessi Gold: Activity or your tone. You would never see someone actually seize. If you did.

[09:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: We probably messed up, right.

[09:59] Dr. Jessi Gold: Only they test where to go based on just if your finger moves when they get there, they know where different parts of your brain are and they're.

[10:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Targeting a specific part. Right. You're never like lashing or thrashing around, rolling over like Lottie did. And it's also very rare these days to do bilateral ECT on both sides of the head. Usually you start with unilateral and it's been so long since I did or saw ECT, I can't even remember which side you usually start with. But that's also not super common to do bilateral. Sometimes you have to right.

[10:34] Dr. Jessi Gold: Then when one's not working as well, you add the other or you try the other and then you do bilateral.

[10:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Oh, really? Like Barbaric bike guard, right?

[10:43] Dr. Jessi Gold: Like a bike guard. She has an aggressive actual seizure. As a viewer, you actually don't know what is going on because they don't say the name. They don't going on anyway. So all you see is like this barbaric looking psychiatric treatment. And don't get me wrong, we have screwed up over and over. We were doing treatment wise. But again, so did a lot of medicine that felt like bloodletting was a way to free spirits of stuff. Right. So we're not the only specialty who tried very dangerous things on people.

[11:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[11:15] Dr. Jessi Gold: We have a reputation for that and I think that has continued. NPT has basically been this, I don't know, representation of that in modern psychiatry.

[11:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[11:26] Dr. Jessi Gold: Though it is so effective and I don't know, I wish there was more context to that. Even though I know it was sort of like intentionally vague. But I wish there was more context to it. I wish it was more thoughtful.

[11:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: I wish it was more updated and more accurate.

[11:42] Dr. Jessi Gold: It was more accurate. And with Lottie they have a lot of potential to talk about humane treatment.

[11:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And we see such bad mental health treatment with Lottie this whole season and that's like the only mental health treatment we see.

[12:00] Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah, I mean, I think I worry not to get too far ahead that next season too, that she's going to.

[12:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Be inpatient, it's going to be awful. Let's show some good treatment that's struggling.

[12:12] Dr. Jessi Gold: Like this, you can go back to.

[12:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Functioning and doing your work and your.

[12:16] Dr. Jessi Gold: Life, but this is maybe what you need. Sometimes this is impatient can look like and they have the opportunity to demystify destigmatize.

[12:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's just so far from what I saw in my training in what actual ECT is, which can be so quite literally life saving for so many patients. And it's just such a shame to have such yet another negative depiction of such a life saving treatment and of schizophrenia.

[12:47] Portia Pendleton: I mean, she's going to go inpatient one of the most interesting things in my graduate program was we had this I don't know, because you guys both interfaced with Yale. She was a lawyer, like down in New Haven, and she's an author and she has schizophrenia.

[13:02] Dr. Jessi Gold: It's called the center cannot hold with Elon Sack.

[13:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[13:05] Portia Pendleton: So she does a lot of talks about her experience with hallucinating, being on medication, not being on medication, how powerful medication is, and how you can really lead a wildly productive I mean, she went to law school. She's a very well known fighter and person lawyer. And that was just, I think, really helping too. I mean, the whole point is to destigmatize schizophrenia. So then we see Lottie here not doing a good job of that. And then we were just talking about future season predictions with maybe her being on inpatient unit and probably not looking so good.

[13:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I do think as much as I was disappointed with the depiction of ECT, I do think this season had some good moments that I thought very, I guess, helpfully displayed the difference between hallucinations dissociation and like a dissociative fugue state. Right. I feel like those things are challenging to wrap your head around, challenging to educate people about, and then I would imagine even more challenging depicting in an accurate way. So when we say hallucination, what we mean by that is when someone is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, or smelling something that isn't actually there in reality, so what other people around them aren't experiencing. The most common hallucinations are auditory and visual. So things that you see or hear, although other senses can be affected too. When we say dissociation, what we mean by that is it's psychologically when there's a separation of some aspects of cognitive mental functioning from your conscious awareness. So it's often a response to trauma. And it's like your mind's way of trying to protect yourself and disconnect from an extreme psychological distress. And then kind of even further than that is what we call a dissociative fugue state, which is another rare occurrence. I did see a couple of these in the Er in my training, and that's a temporary state where a person has amnesia for their personal autobiographical information and then travels to an unexpected place, kind of out of nowhere. So these people kind of show up in your Er, don't know who they are, don't know where they are, don't know why they're there. And it takes a while to figure out what exactly is going on. And you don't often jump to like, oh, it's a fugue state. You might think like, oh my God, is there something medical going on? And things like that. But sometimes these patients do end up creating a whole new identity so I thought this show did demonstrate these different aspects of psychological functioning in response to trauma in a really amazing way. I was thinking of Shauna and Jackie, like those hallucinations early on, lottie and her psychiatrist, which we'll get into, I'm sure, in a minute. With the Dissociating, we see that a lot. With Ty, we see that with Shauna kind of forgetting or dissociating about her baby being stillborn. And then the fugue we see with Ty sleepwalking all the way to Ohio and hitchhiking to see Van. So I don't know, what did you guys think about those different depictions?

[16:20] Portia Pendleton: I mean, the Dissociation one where Shauna is seeing Jackie, I feel like feels really to me like the most common potentially experience someone might have with, like, a loss, even.

[16:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: You mean dissociating or hallucinating?

[16:34] Portia Pendleton: Dissociating.

[16:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: So this is a great example of how confusing these different conditions can be. Right. Because so Jackie was dead by that point, but she's talking to her. She's seeing her Jackie's moving around. So I would call that, I guess, maybe a little both.

[16:48] Portia Pendleton: Okay.

[16:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: But definitely visual auditory hallucinations that aren't actually happening.

[16:53] Portia Pendleton: I mean, I'm just thinking of like I guess no one's really typical, but like a typical trauma patient who has dissociative features, usually I think, then just seeing them. Right. Like, you say you're like, outside your body or maybe you're in another place, but you're not seeing another person who then you would say isn't there.

[17:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. So I think of dissociation as like, having gaps in your memory for the traumatic event, forgetting certain things about it. Sometimes they do describe sort of like hovering above and sort of witnessing it rather than experiencing it. I think what you might be describing is, like, maybe someone who's even something not as severe as trauma, like grief, and you're walking around and you think you see the person, and then you realize, oh, no, that's not really them.

[17:39] Dr. Jessi Gold: These are so specific and very hard to know the difference. And they're all sort of in this spectrum of psychological responses that can feel like psychosis, but also are trauma.

[17:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. There's a big overlap.

[17:53] Dr. Jessi Gold: All of them were interestingly done. I think it's different people's responses to extreme stress, if you want to call it that, on sort of like the Wispy scale. Just a ton of trauma. I don't know how most people would react. And on top of it, also, they're starving.

[18:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[18:12] Portia Pendleton: Right. I was interested in the medical.

[18:14] Dr. Jessi Gold: That part is also complicated. If they're, like, are they hallucinating? Are they struggling because they act Harding.

[18:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: And their brain is not functioning well?

[18:23] Portia Pendleton: Yes. The mouse, it's like you can convince.

[18:26] Dr. Jessi Gold: Yourself that that's real because you can't tell the difference. Or the coach very actively hallucinating, but they're sort of like vivid dreams that happen to be while he's awake because he's not really fully functioning, because he's not eating right. I think there's a lot of blurring. And I also think that they use that to the advantage of the show writing, to put in the mysticism. They don't know. They're all sort of broken from reality in some capacity, some more than others for other reasons. But what is real and what is not is confusing. And I think that's also confusing for viewers and purpose.

[19:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, right. And I wonder, like you're saying, if that how much of that was purposeful. Because as we're seeing them all cope with and respond to trauma and try to survive, they're also telling the story through a lot of flashbacks and flash forwards. And so you kind of are also off kilter, which might just kind of be like in parallel to what you could imagine the characters are experiencing.

[19:27] Portia Pendleton: I was thinking about just like I work with a lot of eating disorder patients, right? How important eating and nourishment is glucose, obviously, this is a pretty extreme example, but our brains need nutrition so badly.

[19:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: To perform well, to function.

[19:46] Portia Pendleton: And even, you know, if you're not starving in the wilderness with no food for weeks, living on soup made with mushrooms, I mean, you can tell. And that's where body disturbance comes in. People have a really hard time judging their body and comparing it and really do believe that they're in a larger body or a smaller body, et cetera. But I just thought what? Just like a little fun fact of how much we need food and how it can really change our experience with reality.

[20:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, 100%. And also how some of the dissociation can be protective. Right. When you're trying to survive in the winter in the woods with no idea if anyone's going to find you, it's probably protective to survival, to be disconnected to some degree. Right. Otherwise, like, God, what do you do?

[20:33] Portia Pendleton: Right? The mouse seemed really important to her and just like a little creature. Who she's talking to? I mean, I was really shocked when it was dead.

[20:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Me too.

[20:42] Dr. Jessi Gold: I'm not going to lie.

[20:43] Portia Pendleton: Of course it's alive.

[20:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then creature, did you wonder if she's going to eat it?

[20:48] Portia Pendleton: I think she did.

[20:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Did she eat it?

[20:50] Dr. Jessi Gold: Maybe I'm thinking about the ear and was like, no.

[20:56] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I'm thinking of the ear.

[20:58] Dr. Jessi Gold: I think it was hard enough to even see the mouse situation change, but I think it's I don't know. It's a cool storytelling technique to use to be like, what's real, what's not? How do you know? And I think they use the same technique. I mean, with the baby situation, guys and the fans all were worried they ate the baby. Yeah, they have her basically hallucinate that people eat the baby and you believe it for a while, thought it could be a possible outcome. The writers knew it could be what people think is a possible outcome. And so they sort of play on that. I don't know, break from every like no one knows what's real and what's not. And I think as a viewer, it allows you to sort of maybe get more in the headspace of what it would be like to be doing that. And then I also think it makes things hard to follow. And you don't always trust the narrator. So interesting from a storytelling perspective. And I also think the food thing, it's like dissociation, if you want to use that term, being connected to your body that is not functioning and hungry and not eating. I understand all of that's. Protective, consciously dissociate. I mean, people who have had trauma sometimes can consciously dissociate as they get older because they learned it as a big skill, but they might not even realize they're doing it conscious, but they still don't even realize they're doing it. And so it's like an evolved coping skill to basically say, my body is not safe where my body is. Let's take a vacation from that, right? It's hard to picture, but it's a logical and important way.

[22:49] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[22:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think, too, this show is doing a nice job demonstrating how like you were saying, Jesse, a lot of times when you're faced with trauma, let alone a chronic trauma, that's not letting up, especially in your early years. Like when you're a teenager or even younger, you develop these coping strategies like dissociation. Not consciously or intentionally, but then how that can persist into adulthood. And we see that with Ty, I think especially how when she's under the stress in season one of Running for Office, she's unconsciously reverting back to some of these coping strategies, like eating the dirt or setting up the altar and things like that. And how we see in season two as the stress keeps escalating, now she's maybe losing her family hallucinated. Sammy, it seems like before she got into that awful car accident where Simone got hurt. Then we see the dissociative few coming. And I think, again, that's a pretty intense depiction, but also really accurate. Like, I treat a lot of patients in adulthood who have a trauma history who find themselves dissociating or and that can be as simple as when faced with some reminder of what you went through, you all kind of feel like you're losing touch with your body. Sometimes I have patients describe it as like a zoom out or something. It can be as, quote unquote mild as something like that all the way to something as severe as, like, a fuke state. And you're right, I think, with the way they're telling the story and how smart is this? You do start to doubt. Like, I found myself wondering, was Misty's friend Crystal real until she died? And so thinking about lottie in the woods, but then also as an adult with her psychiatrist, I'm curious, Jesse, what your thoughts are about that whole depiction.

[24:42] Dr. Jessi Gold: Isn'T real. Yeah, again, that sort of was like, whoa. It was interesting to me because I was like, why don't you keep saying her psychiatrist is on vacation? I thought that was the weirdest addition to the conversation because it was irrelevant. I don't know. It's interesting because in a way, it's like she thinks she's asking for help and she wants to ask for help, but she's asking for help in her world, not real world, but then her help asking in the real world is like this very dangerous mysticism.

[25:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I thought it was so, like, before I realized the psychiatrist wasn't real at first, was like, I like the psychiatrist's office. Overall, I liked it. But then the psychiatrist said something like, when Lottie is coming and basically asking for medication or to go up on her medications because the hallucinations are coming back. And again, patients with that awareness of their psychotic disorder or their bipolar disorder with psychotic features or what have you can realize that and will come and seek help. And I think that's amazing when that happens. I was so disappointed when the fake psychiatrist said something to her, like, well, maybe you should listen to your hallucinations. I was like, no. And then when we realized she wasn't real, I was like, oh, Portia, I don't know. When did you catch on?

[26:00] Portia Pendleton: I didn't until now. And not that she wasn't real. The last time we see the psychiatrist, she like, disappears, right, from Lottie's home, our office, whatever it was. And so I was like, oh, that was a hallucination. But I thought that that was the.

[26:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Only time she hallucinated her. But like, the other time she went, she actually went? Yes.

[26:21] Portia Pendleton: And she was just getting, like, unhelpful, unhelpful help.

[26:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, maybe. You know, oftentimes with psychosis, at least I learned in my training. And I think this tracks if I sort of, like, reflect back, it's the auditory hallucinations that are the most common. And then I remember, like, visual hallucinations are more common with, like you said, like a medical issue or like alcohol withdrawal, UTI, stuff like that. And it is more often like whispers or hearing a voice, but it might not even be that the voice is saying something that's really clear to understand, but it sounds threatening or scary or could be a command hallucination telling them to harm themselves in some way. But, yeah, the idea of a friend or this whole external person, I haven't seen as much in real life.

[27:15] Portia Pendleton: Well, I wanted to bring up just your article for the Slate. So just thinking about trauma, and we mentioned this like a couple of minutes ago. I think it's so important for people to know that if you're doing something like an EMDR or an art trauma treatment, you are opening the bag up, you are recalling really specific memories. And I like how you said you have to be prepared for that. And sometimes things get worse before they get better. And thinking about the characters on the show, it's like their trauma was so chronic and pervasive. And then continues at Post Wilderness that for treatment for them even thinking of Lottie, they need to be in really.

[28:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Safe, really good care, really safe.

[28:02] Portia Pendleton: And environment providers really know what they're doing, who can hold them. And just thinking of all their dissociations as really, really coping, I mean, I don't know if it's safe for them to open the trauma jar altogether.

[28:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Especially, I think we see what happens, right, how the hunt happens again near the end of the season.

[28:24] Portia Pendleton: And you can see Shauna and Misty being so shocked that Ty and Van did not end up or they called off lottie getting taken at that point. And they really started in the fear that Wright comes up for Shauna and Misty again with, like, Van and Ty allowing the hunt to happen. I don't know. I mean, I think just trauma, oh, there's great trauma treatments now and everyone should work on their trauma.

[28:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sure.

[28:47] Portia Pendleton: But you have to be safe to do it.

[28:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you do need to be with a very skilled provider who knows what they're doing and knows how to handle when dissociative features might come up or when a panic attack might come up, and help you sort of stay present and feel safe is like the most important thing.

[29:05] Dr. Jessi Gold: I think it's important for people to know that if you seek out trauma therapy, you're not going to dive immediately into it too, and you don't like this fear that you're going to say, Hi, nice to meet you. Tell me about that time in the wilderness when you're like, we don't do that.

[29:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[29:20] Dr. Jessi Gold: Like, if you're trained in it, if you see the right kind of people, you get used into it. You will have those conversations. That's why you chose to have that therapy. But the purpose is not just to expose you and make you feel miserable. And so knowing that, I think, is important.

[29:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Some forms of trauma therapy now, like CPT, cognitive processing therapy without the trauma narrative, where you don't have to recall and detail the whole trauma narrative to do the therapy, how that's also been shown to be equally as effective as the version with the narrative. And I think that's really helpful for patients to hear because I think that is a big barrier to seeking it out is this fear that you're going to have to retell it and relive it over and over and over and over and that isn't always the case.

[30:05] Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah, there's a lot of fear in them telling their story, which you can tell even probably one of the better scenes is all of them as adults, kind of like talking about how messed up their lives actually are, listening to music and dancing and drinking yeah. Around the fire and it's kind of fun, but you're also like they're just like, telling each other how bad their lives are, but they don't tell anybody. Else. They don't trust anybody else. It's like a weird, sort of, like, peer support system that protected them for a long time. It has made them all really safe.

[30:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And the only time they could connect in that way again is when they're, like, out in the wilderness around a fire, which is so similar to the time they were stuck.

[30:50] Portia Pendleton: It just feels re traumatizing.

[30:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[30:55] Portia Pendleton: And I didn't like watching it the whole last episode. I felt nervous when they started doing.

[31:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: The stuff with the cards and then lottie's like, the Russian roulette with the poison, and I was just like, oh, no. But I did think it was amazing storytelling to have that going on in parallel to when they started doing that in the wilderness and how you could see again. You think of the coping skills you develop to survive in such a traumatic situation like that, and how they're sort of bubbling up again now in adulthood.

[31:27] Portia Pendleton: And Natalie, is substance use certainly a coping skill? A way for her to kind of detach and then just her arc? I was sad to see spoiler alert. I had to see her go.

[31:40] Dr. Jessi Gold: I'm really excited about hoping that they tell the future, too. Is this, like, sort of passing on of trauma to the next generation?

[31:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, with Callie, because there's, like, something.

[31:52] Dr. Jessi Gold: Where she's known her mom is not okay for a very long time, but her mom won't talk to her about it. And you see in her mom's interview with the cops and stuff that she didn't really think she should be a mom. Not really worthy of it, not really able to do it correctly. You grow up and you know there's something there when you get older and you're able to have more of a sense of things. And they don't talk about it. The parents aren't talking about it. They disagree a lot, or they're not getting along. Well, you see that, too. And then she just wanted to be let in. She's been waiting to be let into the story her whole life. And I feel like she's been defensive and protective of her mom in ways that she wouldn't have been otherwise. But she's clearly been traumatized from the whole thing, too. I know. Even the stuff she thinks of doing for the cop and all that stuff, manipulative and whatever, but it's like, I.

[32:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Guess this is what we do, right? Yeah. Gosh. And I think a lot of people can probably relate to that, hopefully in a different way. But when you yourself have grown up with some sort of trauma or something, how and when do you share that with your kids in a way that keeps them feeling safe, but also promotes connection rather than this vibe that we don't talk about hard things? I have no idea. But this show, I think, depicts that like you're saying in a really intense way. Jesse, again, getting back to your article. What did you think about the depiction of Lottie's, what seems like a cult, and yet it didn't seem like Lottie had, like, a nefarious intent. Right. That I feel like a lot of cult leaders, there's usually a nefarious, selfish intent there.

[33:36] Dr. Jessi Gold: I mean, it's a cold article for Slate on that, and part of it was because I was very curious about what the draw for people with mental illness and trauma is of colts. Yes, there's a lot of draw. The support and the understanding and that somebody listening to you. The acceptance attempt at finding a solution, which I think happens for a lot of our patients. And they turn to supplements and they turn to things that maybe feel quicker because somebody maybe gave them an answer, CBD something. And there's not a lot of great treatment or fast treatment for some of this. And it's nice to think there could be. I think there's some version of Lottie who is like her purpose in her mind is to help the wounded souls of the world without realizing that there's negative to what she's doing. And that's a lack of insight. Some of I don't know how much is purposefully hurtful as much as it is what she believes is right, but what she believes is right is unfortunately not really right. So you kind of have to say maybe her insight into right and wrong is not 100% there.

[34:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, why would it be, given what she went through? Right.

[35:00] Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah. I mean, given, like, that she wants to kill someone for the wilderness or give it blood.

[35:07] Portia Pendleton: Right. And if she were to die, who then takes care of her? Right. Who then leads her people followers?

[35:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: If she drinks the cyanide, what happens? Maybe it's Lisa. That girl. I don't know.

[35:22] Portia Pendleton: I think it's definitely the lack of insight and just not I think she's ultimately that demonstrates to me selfishness because you're not thinking about all these people who you have living in this commune, taught to be here, where they're kind of surrounding you and your ideas. It's like, well, if I'm gone, you're not thinking about them.

[35:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. No, that's a good point. I think I was comparing her this time to Keith Ranieri of the nexium cult. I don't know if you watch The Vow, but how they're again, clearly it's a cult. Right. They're not communicating with the outside world, even though they could. They all just choose not to. Right. They're all wearing purple. They're all doing sort of these woo woo things she holds onto the files. Yeah. And, like, the info. Right. So maybe there was more to it than we saw about what's she getting.

[36:12] Dr. Jessi Gold: Out of it, being each other's family.

[36:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: This is what works, and maybe that's enough for her. Maybe that's what she gets out of it, that community and belonging and sense of importance.

[36:22] Portia Pendleton: And then it's for her, right?

[36:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: For her rather than for everyone else. I did think it was interesting as we start wrapping up the way that the show and it seems like the characters maybe led by Lottie, but then they all kind of accept it to some degree, keep talking about the darkness within each of them and then the role of the wilderness or that mysticism role. And it made me think of is this how they're trying to externalize in some way these dark parts of themselves that they ended up using or relying on to survive? And I think we just sort of see that unfold as they grow into adulthood and as they all get back together and kind of redo another hunt at Lottie's psychotic urging. Quite frankly, at that point, I think she's like, fully psychotic.

[37:21] Portia Pendleton: And I think it's just interesting. They all name it, though, right?

[37:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, they all have the same name.

[37:27] Portia Pendleton: Misty and Shauna all decide prehunt that they are going to go along with Lottie and her really psychotic ideas about.

[37:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: One very dangerous yeah, very dangerous.

[37:38] Portia Pendleton: And then I think it's so, like, why Ty and Van?

[37:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was shocked.

[37:44] Portia Pendleton: Van seems terminal.

[37:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: She's a terminal illness.

[37:48] Portia Pendleton: So is that her way you said before, of trying to be saved by Lottie?

[37:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because it seems like Lottie has, like, quote unquote, saved Van in the past, or the wilderness has saved Van from all the time she should have died in the woods but didn't. And so I was stumped as to why they would call off the emergency medical personnel to take Lottie into treatment or traditional psychiatric treatment. And that was the only thing I could really come up with, was like, did Van think in some way Lottie could once again save her? I don't know. What do you think, Jesse, about all that?

[38:22] Dr. Jessi Gold: I don't know. Or I feel like Van thought she would be chosen to sacrifice herself for people. I don't know. It's too obvious, too just like she would be the one to go and.

[38:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: She was like, okay with it because she had a terminal illness or something.

[38:38] Dr. Jessi Gold: It felt like a chicken thing that they all failed at stopping. Okay, someone's going to stop this, right? And maybe they thought Lottie would, because it's hard to see, like, in what we know about the past, we don't know how much Lottie is involved in the like, they start that game, like that game. I know people with card game. It's hard to know how much of that takes a life of its own, and it's not actually Lottie's life. And so maybe they were like, this isn't really what Lottie like, Lottie is going to be like, this is a bad idea. I don't know. And so it felt like to me, either Van was ready to self sacrifice or that they were all playing a game of chicken, that they were hoping someone would stop, and nobody did. And it felt like that as kids, a little bit too right. Someone's not going to kill Natalie. Right? And then they were like, oh, he fell in.

[39:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. Right.

[39:43] Dr. Jessi Gold: Super traumatic and very parallel to that.

[39:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Moose, the white moose.

[39:49] Portia Pendleton: Yes.

[39:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: I also wondered if that was real, that white moose or hallucination.

[39:54] Dr. Jessi Gold: It's hard to know that if they thought it would actually go through. It's pretty clear. Shauna didn't.

[40:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: She's like, oh.

[40:01] Dr. Jessi Gold: She was like, what the serious?

[40:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Are you really seriously, guys?

[40:05] Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah, this is what's going on. And turn around and I don't know.

[40:12] Portia Pendleton: And Ben's refusal. We talked about him really briefly before with his hallucinations.

[40:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: At first I thought that was a.

[40:20] Portia Pendleton: Flash forward and he made it home.

[40:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he was with his boyfriend and it was all beautiful. And then I was like, oh, no. The season ends with Natalie's death at Misty's hand. We didn't get into Misty and Elijah Wood, but I just loved that pairing and their little caligula dance when she was in the sensory deprivation tank. So just shout out to that. But then we also see Ben burn down the house and it's still winter. Right? Aren't you terrified for like, oh, no, what are they going to do now? You know? It's got to be worse than what we've already seen because they survive. So, yeah. I'm just very nervous about this show.

[41:01] Portia Pendleton: And time wise, I feel like someone has definitely figured it out on TikTok. I want to know when season two ends. How far are they into the 19 months?

[41:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Are we only like a third of the way in?

[41:14] Portia Pendleton: Is this soon?

[41:15] Dr. Jessi Gold: There are things that in this very meta, writers shout out to writers on.

[41:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[41:21] Dr. Jessi Gold: But in this very meta, very awesome way of writing, the reason we don't know what's real or not is because they don't want us to, because the people don't. And the reason they have not given us any time clues except for seasons changing, is that's all they know, too?

[41:38] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, that's a great point, and I.

[41:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Appreciate that about this show. The way they're telling the story and how the way they tell the story is so mirroring, I think their own traumatic experiences, like we're talking about with the hallucinations, the dissociating, the difficulty figuring out what's reality, what's not, I think that is exactly where they all are. But I'm, like, so scared of how are they going to survive without shelter now?

[42:05] Portia Pendleton: And the season we had mentioned even last time is going to be delayed.

[42:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[42:11] Portia Pendleton: Season three, because of the writer strike. And I think prior we said that last time. I don't know how we knew that if the writer strike was happening, but it's going to be a while, I think, until I feel like I need.

[42:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: A pause because it's so intense.

[42:26] Dr. Jessi Gold: Bonus episode again, I stay off the fan theories, but the showrunner confirmed it, so they have some bonus episode for the season that like Jason Ritterson that they will give release at some point, given that their showrunners very into the strike. I think she rightfully so.

[42:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Rightfully so.

[42:49] Dr. Jessi Gold: Out of respect. I also think they only got, like, one writer's room for season three or something before this strike. So, yeah, I will get a break.

[42:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: But yeah, these shows and the writing is just so astounding the way that they get it, right.

[43:01] Portia Pendleton: Like, so much content to talk about. I mean, we feel what they feel, right? We feel anxious, we feel joy. And I think that's just like that's because there's these amazing, talented people working on all these shows, and that's why we're talking about them.

[43:13] Dr. Jessi Gold: Right. I really hope that young Shauna gets some awards. Yeah, that's one thing I've been thinking about. Another thing I've been thinking about is how hard it must be to do that role.

[43:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: We talk a lot about how I hope there's a therapist on set for the actors, for everyone who is part of this. Because even acting or pretending or assuming the role has got to be traumatic in its own way, right.

[43:44] Dr. Jessi Gold: I mean, it has, right? To be basically like you're living wherever he gets filmed in Canada. I think you're taking the content in and embodying it. And some of that content is like I mean, all of that content is horrible. Right. They're all disturbing traumatized and starving or whatever. But, like, the people who have these really horrific storylines and need, like, extreme emotions, like, Shauna goes through, like, she beats the **** out of audience. Her emotions are very regulated in a way that somebody's actively experiencing trauma and years later experiencing trauma, we experience and embodying that in such a visceral way as, like, I don't know, she's in her 20s. Right, right.

[44:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Where can they pull that from?

[44:35] Dr. Jessi Gold: Sitting apart, because you have your own story, your family has their own story. Whatever. You could have never gotten help for it before, and you're just doing the role and you need help later, but you just see that stuff and you're like, this is hard enough to watch.

[44:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, definitely.

[44:53] Dr. Jessi Gold: How many takes do they have to do? I don't know. I think that's just really hard. I do hope that they realize that that's okay. Right.

[45:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, Jesse, thank you so much for joining us once again as our Yellow Jackets correspondent in the field. We really appreciate it. Can you tell everyone where they can find you?

[45:16] Dr. Jessi Gold: Sure. At Dr. Jessebold on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, or Dr. Jessebold.com works too.

[45:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Awesome. And you can find us at Analyze Scripts on Instagram and Analyze Scripts podcasts on TikTok. And we will see you next Monday. Yeah, thank you. Bye.

[45:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with.

[45:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine.

[45:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

[46:39] Dr. Jessi Gold: Our channel.

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