Analyze Scripts

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are covering two popular documentaries that have recently been getting a lot of attention, "Escaping Twin Flames" on Netflix and "Love Has Won: The Cult of Mother God" on Max. We discuss how cults prey on vulnerable people, some red flags to look out for and discuss similarities between these two cults as well as others. We hope you enjoy!

Psychology Today Article 

Instagram

Youtube

TikTok

Website

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Furey, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And this is analyze scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and tv shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And your DSM five, and enjoy. Welcome back to another episode of analyze scripts. We are doing something a little bit different today. Usually we focus on fictional tv shows and movies, but we have decided to take a stand against cults. And we have decided that we will make an exception and talk about cults when they're in the media, because they are honestly just so atrocious. So we're going to try to walk a really fine line here and still be ethical. We're not trying to analyze anyone specifically in terms of the people that are talked about and the two documentaries we're going to be talking about today. But we want to use this material to talk more broadly about cults in general, again, because it is really pervasive, it's really dangerous, it's heartbreaking, and we see it a lot in the media, but there's still so much confusion about it. So, again, if you want to hear more, you can also revisit one of our older episodes about yellow jackets season two with Dr. Jesse Gold. We talk a lot about Lottie's cult. And so, basically today what we're going to do is I watched a documentary about a cult. Portia watched a different documentary about the cult. A different cult. And we didn't watch each other's documentaries. And we're going to tell each other about the different cults. Right? Did I explain that? Yeah. Okay, so do you want me to get started, or do you want to get started?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Portia, why don't you intro yours and get started?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, not my cult, but the cult. Too short. Okay, so I'm going to be referring to a recent Netflix documentary called escaping Twin Flames. I think that's what it's called. It was only about three episodes. They're about an hour long each. Interestingly, I watched them on an airplane when we were flying down to Disney World. So it was like an interesting juxtaposition, like going to the happiest place on earth and then watching all of this sadness and heartbreak and intensity sitting next to my children. It's interesting. This documentary follows an organization which obviously they don't call themselves a cult, but they have some experts kind of weighing in who do call it a cult, or also a high control group is like another phrase used to describe cults these days. And basically it's run by these two people, Jeff and Shalia, who I was just looking up their Wikipedia before we got started, Portia. And they both have had different names throughout their lives, according to Wikipedia, which I just think is interesting. And they run something called the Twin Flames University. I had never heard of twin flames until Megan Fox and machine gun Kelly. Right. Like, weren't they all about twin flames? Had you heard of this before? A little.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, it's like an extra. Like, that was my understanding of what. Or, like, not an extra, a soulmate to the right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. Yeah. So I again looked it up on Wikipedia, because doctors use Wikipedia, too.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did you donate?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, it's Christmas time. I'm a little stressed. But basically, according to Wikipedia, it says, the term twin flames was coined by the english novelist Marie Corelli in her novel of romance of two worlds. And since then, it has sort of evolved into a lot of new age spiritualism. Kind of focuses on twin flames. It's kind of like, it's my understanding it's like your soulmate, but even greater than that. So it's almost like meeting your counterpart and that you have to find each other in order to both achieve your full potential. That's kind of what it is. And then I guess these two folks started this twin flames university where you could take classes about bettering yourself and finding your twin flame. And again, like we talked about in our yellow jackets documentary, always be very careful when someone calls themselves a guru. Someday we'll have merch that has that slogan on it. Right. But just always be careful. And I was looking, and their class that they sold was over $4,000. That's a lot of money. A lot. But again, I see this. I don't know if you see it in people you're treating or evaluating, but I see a lot of people coming to me who are paying a lot of money out of pocket. They don't take insurance. They're also not advertising themselves as clinicians. They might advertise themselves as, quote unquote, life coaches or a coach of some kind, but you can charge whatever you want for whatever you're selling. And it's just interesting to me how some people get hooked and some people charge so much money. Anyway, what the premise of the documentary, Portia, is, is know. So these two people start this twin flames university, and they kind of use themselves as, like, we found our twin flame and this is how we did it. And look at how successful we are and how happy we are and stuff. And then people start joining, and it kind of becomes. I feel like they always become these MLM type things, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Where it's like you buy in and then you become the teacher. Did you watch that documentary about the Nexium cult?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Not that one, but Portia, I think I did the Lululemon. Not Lululemon, the Lula Rowe similar.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So the nextium was really good. Also, like, heartbreaking and awful, but it's a really good expose about typical cult psychology. But again, it's like we are up here on a pedestal. Typically, cult leaders are like, malignant narcissists who want to be idealized, and they want people to obey them no matter what. And they have this sociopathic flair to them. Again, I'm not analyzing anyone specifically or individually. I'm just talking about, in general, what we see. They have this sociopathic flare where, again, they kind of get off or get a rush from controlling people. So those tend to be the people at the top of a cult, and then below are people who are vulnerable to this type of influence. And I think that's where the psychology is really fascinating. Like, how do people get hooked and kind of. It's not always like someone waiting on the end of the road, like, hey, come sign up for my cult. No one would do it. Right? So it tends to be people who are vulnerable in some way. Whether there's been a history of trauma, I would say really common. If there's developmental or intellectual disability, if there is some type of mental illness that can be exploited. Like, I remember in my training, a colleague of mine was treating a patient with psychosis who was getting sucked into these cults. And for someone like that who's already struggling to tell reality from not reality, you can see why you're vulnerable to this. And other times, I think you can just think of it as an unclear sense of self, like someone who maybe is feeling a little lost or who's looking to feel connection or community or love. I think those types of people might be more apt to, I don't know, just, I guess, feel, like, enticed by someone saying, I have all the answers. Look how great my life is. Like, you can have this, too. If you pay me $100 million and do everything I say and change everything about yourself, isn't that great? I think people who have a really strong sense of self, who have more of a secure attachment style, probably will sniff out the bs and turn away and not be as easily manipulated as other people who maybe are struggling with that. I don't know. What do you think?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that's pretty true. I mean, I think a generalization would be that people who tend to kind of fall into cults or even like mlms, it's like you're looking for something and then this organization is promising to deliver, and then there's this added layer of like, you're a family. And obviously that feels really strong in a cult as we know it. And then also we do see that show up in Lularoe and your team and your girl boss thing. So it can be obviously different levels of it, but totally.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I found a really interesting article that we're going to link to in our show notes because we know how to do that now on psychology today, that really explains cults, written by Stephen Hassan, a PhD I thought was like a really good, easy to digest description. And they also say you can see these dynamics not just in cults, but you can see it in mlms, you can see it in religious organizations, you can see it in schools, you can see it in families, you can see it in the workplace. Again, it's not like this phenomenon is unique to cults. I think it's just from the outside. Like when you're watching a documentary like this, you're just like, what? How on earth did these people stick around? And it's because it's so insidious and slow, right? Like we're seeing it in a three hour documentary. This has been going on for years. I think these people started this organization like 2007. It doesn't happen overnight, right? So usually the leader is really charming and charismatic and captivating in some way, but then there's a lot of nefarious things going on underneath. So we'll link to that because it's really interesting. And I think it's important just to note that these dynamics exist other places. And that's one reason we want to talk about it again, to sort of help educate and push out some information. So I guess with this one, with the twin Flames university. So again, the whole goal is like, sign up for this class. You'll become self actualized. I feel like that's another thing. All these cults sort of advertise like, you'll be your best self, and then that's confusing. Because I feel like Weight Watchers advertise this, too, and other types of self help advertise that. So how do you draw the line? But then you pay for this. And then as this documentary goes on, Portia, you meet different characters in it, and you meet, like, there was one. I was trying to just look up their names again really quick.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So is this online mostly, like, the university? Like, I could sign up and take the class.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You could go right now. I went to the website, actually, to see if it's still there. And it is. So it is online. And then they started having in person meetups, which I think once you do that, then those connections are even stronger. Right? Like, now you're seeing each other in person, and it's like, this is our community. This is our. He did, the leader, Jeff did have a goal of eventually having an actual community. Like, we're all going to move to this place. I don't know if that ever happened or not, but so we meet a lot of different people involved. And one person involved that really struck me was this young girl named Marley. I think she was in her late teens when she got involved. And again, I feel like that's, like, the perfect person who's susceptible. Like a 17 year old with an Internet connection.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You're really figuring out who you are.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right, exactly. You don't have a fully formed identity yet because you're so young and you're just trying to figure it out. And we don't know anything about her background, so I'm not going to speculate, but basically, she was super young going to these classes. I don't know how she's paying for it. I'm not sure. And then what really struck me is basically, like, jeff and Shalia, the leaders would tell their participants, like, we know who your twin flame is. So, like, once you're self actualized enough, we'll let you know. Or we're going to help make the map. Yes, exactly. Like this ultimate puppeteer, right? This ultimate. And, like, they showed this scene where they were at the in person meetup, and they're all meeting for the first time, and they're talking to Marley and saying, like, well, is there anyone special in your life? Right? You know, they're showing this stuff, and somehow they have footage of it in real, like, they have the old footage. So someone was, like, filming all this, but then they're also showing Marley, like, present day, reflecting on the experience, and they're asking her, is there anyone special in your life right now? And she's kind of shy because she's like a kid and like, well, not really. And then Jeff's pushing her, like, are you sure? Are you sure? Sort of like, suggesting, like, he knows. And then she says, like, well, this guy has been texting me. And he's like, oh, that's it. That's it. This random guy who's texting her, and then that's her twin flame. Over time, she starts having a relationship with this guy. She moves in with him when she's really young. I can't remember the age difference, but there was a pretty significant gap. Not like 20 years, but maybe somewhere between five to ten years. And he had a criminal past. He was doing a lot of drugs. That's all we know. We don't know if there's any other trauma going on in the home as they're living together. I wouldn't be surprised if there was. And it just broke my heart that this young girl gets sucked in to thinking this is the person she's supposed to love, right? And you're just so brainwashed by it. So that was really captivating and sad. And then the other things that we see in the twin flames universe is we see a woman named Keeley, who's a key character in the documentary because she got in early and became, like, one of the teachers. So she was someone who was know. Jeff and Shalia are here. She's like the next level and trying to train other people. And how do you do the classes and stuff? And by the way, all these people are working for free. No one's getting paid. Eventually, Jeff and Shalia somehow incorporate to be a religion so that they don't have to pay taxes. And it's just like, again, all of this stuff is messy and very classic for so. But what's interesting about Keely in this documentary is that she comes in, she finds her twin flame very early on and is sort of put on this pedestal of the ultimate example of, like, look, it's not just us, Jeff and Shalia, who found our true love. These people also did using our methods, and now they can teach you. So they're like the ultimate teachers. And over time, she starts to kind of doubt what's going on. She eventually leaves, and you really see her grapple with the shame and guilt of what she did while she was part of the cult. And there's a scene at the end where she meets another former cult member who she used to be, like, the teacher of and would really push to do unhealthy things. And they just have this moment, this conversation where she's so genuinely apologetic, and it's really heartbreaking. You really see how that whole thing about how someone who's been abused becomes an abuser, and it's really heartbreaking to witness. So she's a really compelling character. And then the cherry on top of this awful Sunday, Portia, is that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just nervous.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know. You should be like, hold on tight. So as if all of this wasn't bad enough, as they know, Jeff and shalia start morphing their teachings to include that everyone is either a divine masculine or a divine feminine. Okay? So they're saying you're either a divine masculine or a divine feminine. You don't have both characteristics of both. And you have to find, like, if you're a divine, if you are a divine feminine, you have to define your divine masculine and vice versa. Like, two divine feminines, two divine masculines can't be together. Okay? So then they start telling people whether they are a divine masculine or feminine, whether or not that matches with that individual's own sense of their gender, okay? And it's also not based on the person's outwardly appearing gender. So they're not telling all the outwardly appearing girls you're defined feminine, and all the outwardly appearing males, you are divine masculine. The reason why is because they had way more women as students than men. So I think they started running out of men to pair with people. Honestly, it seems like. So they started telling certain women, like, you are a divine masculine, and this divine feminine is your twin flame. You need to be in a relationship with them. And some of these people now who are being interviewed are like, I'm not attracted this person. I don't feel like I'm trans or anything like that. In Portia, it goes so far that some of the people got top surgery. I know. And so abuse 100% across the board. This is why I feel like we can make the exception and talk about cult like this, because it is so atrocious. It's like a human rights violation, I feel like. And what I really liked about this documentary, actually, is that. And I was, like, talking about this just socially with some of my friends who aren't in the mental health field. And they agreed that they really appreciated how in this documentary, they had someone who is, I forget exactly what their title was, but they work at, like, a university and gender studies and do a lot of advocacy for transgender rights and things like that. And they very clearly said, this actually is anti trans. Like, twin flames university is advertising itself as pro. Like, we support this. We'll support you when no one else in your family does. We'll support you getting your surgery and things like that. But they're like, this is actually completely anti trans because you are telling someone what they are and how their body should look, and you don't care if that matches their own inner experience. Right? And that is like, bad. So bad. And so this documentary does follow a couple of people in particular who ended up getting surgeries. And one of the most heartbreaking scenes is when they follow a group of mothers who have been disconnected from their children, who have joined this cult. And one of them is watching her daughter talk about getting top surgery because she was told she's a divine, masculine, and it's just so heartbreaking to see. And then the other two pieces of the documentary that just blew my mind were at the beginning, they advertised having, and there was a psychologist involved, okay? Like someone with real training. They advertised having some sort of treatment for PTSD, of all things. And I just think that is disgusting. It is egregious. It should be reportable to whatever medical or psychology board this person is licensed by because they're advertising like, we have this treatment. And really they're just like indoctrinating people. And so that was really disgusting to me. And the last thing I wanted to tell you about was we saw one of these moms as she's talking to the camera about basically her child cut her off. And she keeps trying to reach out. She's not hearing back, but she keeps trying. And I feel like that's a message I want to get out is like, if you have someone you love in one of these cults or high control groups, just keep reaching out, even if you're getting nothing back, because you just have to keep that thread of attachment going so that when the person is hopefully ready at some point to leave, they know you're still there. So this mom kept reaching out, kept reaching out even though she wasn't getting anything back. And then as she's talking to the camera, her child text messages her. And you see her very genuine reaction, just like. And all the text said was like, mom, it's me. I need help getting out of this relationship. And she's just like, I just got chills trying to tell you about it because it's so moving and it's so sad. And you see just such a genuine reaction of her saying, like, oh, my God, she got back to me. I want to say something, but I don't want to push her away. I want to keep this going, but I don't want it to be too much like what do I way? And then you see her telling the other moms that she heard from her child and how they're supporting each other. Oh my God. It's really intense. And I would say this documentary is very hard to watch because you really see how so many people have been exploited and traumatized and how they're trying to pick up the pieces and how there's still so many people in it. But I think it really speaks to cults and kind of what it's like. And I feel like twin flames to me always sounded like ludicrous. It just sounds like something that's so ludicrous. But I think that's also an important point is that to some people it's not ludicrous. Yeah. And it just depends on what you're searching for. Right. Whether it's like love or a family or money for MLM schemes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. So that key part, I think in your cult and that what you not.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Dr. Fairy's cult, I do not have one.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I am not a guru. Right. So in love has won, which I watched, which is on HBO or Max, three parts, 3 hours. It sounds like there's a lot of people who are in general prior to joining are kind of like anti establishment. Some the government isn't working for us anymore, which a lot of people feel that way.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Exactly.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So there's these know, I think sometimes really normal thoughts or feelings somebody could have.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And then it's like the kind of.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Takes that and it's like, oh, yeah. So like we also believe this. And then they kind of continue to pull you in. I think we saw that a little bit with QAnon stuff. It's like some of what I'm sure they had out there is pretty believable. So that kind of draws the person to do more research and then all of a sudden you're in a cold.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. And again, it's like, I feel like it's certain types of people who are going to keep getting sucked in. And the leaders have an uncanny ability to sniff that out and they know who they can manipulate and exploit, right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, totally. So speaking of that. So Amy Carlson or mother God.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, mother God.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Or mother Earth or divine mother was a young, I'd say attractive woman who had three husbands and some children who she ended up leaving all for her own kind of spiritual journey. So her mother and sister describe her as being really charismatic. She worked at McDonald's and was kind of immediately, like in a leadership role, she was constantly being promoted. Her team loved her. She had this way with people. During that time, she was with a partner, and she had several children, et cetera. So then she starts to kind of join these online chat groups, which I feel like is a pretty common start to the depths of the Internet. So she started with spiritual singles, and she ended up meeting this man who was much, much older than her, or at least he appears much older than her on lightworkers.org. So they were, like, messaging back and forth. It's basically just people who are, I would imagine, interested in spirituality, and you can chat with each other about the divine and mutually interesting things. So she meets Amorith White Eagle, and she ends up meeting him.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What's that name again?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's amorous white eagle.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Is this person, like, indigenous?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. Okay, so this all kind of then takes place in the Pacific Northwest, it appears Colorado, Oregon, kind of back and forth. So she meets him. They end up getting married. I'm not sure if it's a legal marriage or they just have a ceremony, and they start putting their message out online. So they're interviewing him. He appears, I don't know, like, 70, and she's, like, 30. But funnily, that is. She, though, seems like she's running the show still. So he's very peace and love, and he's kind of going along with whatever she's saying. So she wants to put more on social media. He's like, okay. And then she ends up leaving him eventually, I think, like, after a year, to kind of start an organization with people that she also met online who are then more close in age to her.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Did she use his money or something?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, it seemed kind of like they lived in nature. He didn't really have much. He seems like this is an opinion, like, sweet. Like, just like a hippie. Like, living on the land.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: New ag.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Okay.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so she then he, like, compost. Yeah, totally compost. She takes that and runs with. She gets. She meets this guy who she, um. So this is a big kind of part of her. So she heals him of cancer.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: They always are healing people of cancer. Jeff and Shalia said they could do that, too, by the way. And they also call themselves the divine father and the divine mother. And they went through ivf to have a daughter who's the defined daughter, and I worry for her. But sidebar. Anyone who's calling themselves divine father or mother, run away. Run away. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And that always seems to be a theme of healing people.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So he comes to live with her, works with her, and then there's this other person who comes in who then becomes, like, the second father God, who he appears to not be in the cult anymore as he's being interviewed for the show. So he kind of has, like, a different stance than everyone else who is interviewed who appear to still really believe some of her messages. So this is not even the crux of the story. So she gathers these group of people who they talk about have pretty significant trauma histories, and then these beliefs come out where. So they believe that they are being led by, like, Robert Williams, St. Germain. Most of these people who are deceased, there's only one living person who is Donald Trump. So they have this board with all of their pictures, and she's constantly getting messages from Robin Williams and has been. So she's God who's billions of years old. She has been Marilyn Monroe, she has been Cleopatra. She's been all of these kind of famous women throughout history who've done different things. So I was like, you're Marilyn Monroe and you're like Joan of. Oh, okay. They're just different.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like reincarnation or something.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Only for her, it's not.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Ultimate exception.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, so Robin Williams is telling know, I'm kind of skipping some things, but basically that she needs to be at a really low weight to be picked up by the starships. So she starts restricting her food intake, which is just interesting because that's what I do in my private practice. I was like, oh, here we go. And to be, like, 103 pounds, she has to be under 103 in order to be picked up. So other people in the group as well start restricting nutrition. The lighter you are, the higher frequencies you can tolerate. So they also believe that marijuana and alcohol are, like, tools of healing if used appropriately, which they do say, which I was like, okay. But apparently her use of alcohol combined with her food restriction seems to lead to her downfall. So she gets really sick, like, pancreatitis. I think her liver is failing, probably. And so she's very small. They go to Hawaii to try to heal her. She gets Kauai. They get literally driven out of Kauai by the people who live there because she is now saying that she is, and I'm not remembering it at the time, but she's like, there this goddess that they believe in, and she's saying that she's that person or that spiritual leader, and they're like, no, you're not. That's really disrespectful. So they leave Kauai go back to Colorado, and she's dying. And meanwhile, this whole time they're trying to save her, and she's ingesting high levels of colonial.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, just try to heal her.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Quote unquote.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, okay.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so she ends up passing away. And meanwhile, her family, before this, has put her on Dr. Phil to try to point out that she's a cult. Dr. Phil is involved. It doesn't work. She presents as just, I'm really spiritual and not giving culty vibes at all. Doesn't do anything. Meanwhile, they interview her daughter, who's just sad watching it. She feels abandoned by her mom. So Amy dies, and they are convinced, per her, that she is going to be picked up by the starships. So they have her body at home, or it happens in a hotel, and they are, like, holding up these freak.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: These.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They use them in the ghost stories where you hold up this instrument and, oh, the thing goes crazy. The frequency. So they're, like, holding it up to her dead body. Meanwhile, all of this, they have filmed. They've filmed and written down everything that she's ever done. She sleeps five times. She did this because she's God.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And so they have a dead body.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: With them for a week, like a week or two. They end up leaving the hotel because people are really confused and concerned. They go back to the house in Colorado. The police end up coming. She's modified.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, that's what. Oh, my God.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it was never taken. And they still kind of were saying that they believe to this day that we are so curious what her autopsy showed. She has three hearts. I'm sure all the medical people were blown away and everyone still believe it. To kind of branch off and do something with spirituality. Again, it was a pretty small cult. There was, like twelve to 20 active members who were living there. Then again, they made over $350,000 that one of the members then stole after she died and took because all of it was in his name. Because there's always a theme of money, greed, power in a cult, in my experience. So I think we saw all of the key themes of a person with a really unique ability to have charisma and charm. It just seems like there's always common themes with cults which we see over and over again. And I think really what I was keeping in mind while watching this documentary is there can be such a fine line between spirituality and just having different beliefs that maybe are not mainstream, and that's okay. But there becomes this little line that gets crossed where there's like abuse and someone taking advantage over someone else. And it's like that, to me, is really the difference between anything you want to believe in or do or how you want to live. But when you're harming others or being harmed, it's like that's when it's not.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Okay. Right. And I think I had a friend recently ask me, how do you tell the difference between someone who's psychotic and someone who is running a cult but not psychotic? So the woman you were just describing to me, Portia, the mother God person, sounds like she may have had elements of both, which is possible, although I would imagine, although I don't know for sure, more rare. But again, I would say people who are cult leaders tend to meet criteria for what we call malignant narcissism. So, again, as we talk about with narcissistic personality disorder, they really elevate themselves into this God role. They believe God is talking to them, but then they also take advantage of other people, whereas I think someone who is just struggling with a psychotic disorder, who may have religious delusions, again, they might also believe that God is talking to them, but then they're not using that to their advantage and exploiting people to make money or for sex or some other kind of secondary gain. So I think that's something important to note.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, I would agree. It's so hard. And I think we should, like you said, create some merch. We need, like, a clear checklist to ask yourself to disseminate to everyone. Like, is this a cult or not? Where are the red flags?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Seriously? Seriously. Again, I would say be very wary of anyone calling themselves a guru or using words like that who doesn't have the applicable training or credentials. That even goes, I think, for getting medical advice online, like on Instagram and TikTok, be really cautious and look into what is this person's credentials? Are they really qualified to be telling me these things? Be mindful of how much are they charging? What are you getting from it when they're charging you? And what does your gut tell you? If your gut red flags are going off, you got to listen.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's a good one. I like the part about the cost, because things should feel balanced. If you're getting a worksheet or if I'm paying an insurance via insurance for therapy and I'm paying, I don't know, it can be anywhere from 90 to 150, depending on an insurance rate, for an hour. And that person is credentialed. Right. If you take insurance, you have to be a certain quality of practitioner. And so if you're seeing someone who's like a guru or a coach and you're paying privately and they do not have the credentials, and I'm paying maybe $800 for an hour sessions, it's like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That just feels off.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm not talking about private pay or for someone who does have credentials, but if you can get therapy from a certified, licensed practitioner that generally, sometimes insurance covers, sometimes it doesn't, for around $100, depending where you are and someone, a coach is asking for hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars, that just feels off.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. And that is a theme we've seen, at least in these two documentaries we're talking about today, is the cost of the classes or whatever it is you're buying seems exorbitant. I mean, like at twin Flames University, I read they were charging $4,000. That's crazy. That's really a lot of money. So you really just have to be mindful of what are you getting out of it. And as soon as you start to get a whiff of someone trying to change who you are or someone trying to convince you that they know you better than you know yourself, huge red flag. Run away. If you're feeling devalued around them and they're always putting themselves on a pedestal. Run away. If everyone's fawning over them and the people who bring up a criticism or have a question get ostracized. Run away. Run away.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's a good point. That's on the sweatshirt.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Run away. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So you can find both of these documentaries. One of them, the one Katrina watched, twin flames, is on Netflix. And then the one that I watched, love has won, is on Max, both short kind of docuseries, which I loved that it wasn't 8 hours. Both sad and just the after effects are sad. And cults obviously can be so dangerous and abusive. There's many practitioners out there who specialize with treatment of people who have been in a. If you're. If you have more interest in it, like Katrina is going to link that psychology today article and then know, I think our biggest theme is please reach out.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So in the one I watched, there was a mother who continuously was kind of getting police involvement and calling her daughter and contacting her, and they ended up reuniting at the end. And just as painful as it is, please don't give up.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Don't give up. Don't give up. Yeah, that's a big theme I want to get across, too. And we'll keep covering cults I think moving forward, again, we want to be mindful and be really clear. We're not analyzing any one person in particular. We're just using this media to talk about this phenomenon in more detail because it is so dangerous and so many people are getting hurt by these things. And I would imagine like coming out of COVID with so much more happening, think, you know, it's reaching more people these days, like cults, and all you need know, you can be in a cult of one. It doesn't have to be huge. So that's another thing to keep in mind is these dynamics can play out in smaller communities, smaller relationships, even within families. So we're hoping to try to shed some light on these toxic dynamics so you can protect yourself totally.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, thank you for joining us today, and we look forward to catching up with you next time as we cover another movie or tv show.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, and find us on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube at Analyze Scripts podcast. Please rate, review, and subscribe and let us know what you think. And let us know what you'd like to hear us cover. Next. Bye bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited unless you want to share.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe. That's fine.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are kicking off 2024 with Disney's 2013 smash hit "Frozen." This film has taken the world by (ice) storm, and we'd argue for good reason! In this episode, we spend time discussing perfectionism and "eldest daughter syndrome" while analyzing Anna and Elsa's sibling dynamic and their different reactions to early childhood trauma. It's so fascinating and fun to use these characters to explore anxious-avoidant attachment (Elsa) and disinhibited social engagement disorder (Anna). We also (once again!) discuss a character with nefarious intent and ASPD (antisocial personality disorder) traits - Hans! We talk about why people like Anna are more vulnearble to sociopathic manipulation and exploitation, and how you can protect yourself if you find yourself interacting with people like this. We are so stoked Disney depicted such complex themes for a new generation and we hope you enjoy!

WATCH NOW ON YOUTUBE

FOLLOW US:

INSTAGRAM

TIKTOK

WEBSITE

[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Furey, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is analyze scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of.

[00:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Mental health in movies and tv shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a.

[00:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your dsm five, and enjoy. Let it go. Let it go. We're so excited to talk about Frozen today. If you couldn't tell, that was not Adina Menzel. That was me.

[01:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Wow.

[01:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know she's basically my doppelganger when it comes to singing, but I know it's quite a shock.

[01:13] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But.

[01:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, in all seriousness, I'm really excited to talk about Frozen. It's January when this is being released. It's very chilly in the northeast where we live, and it's just such a classic movie. I believe it's like the ten year anniversary of it being released, right?

[01:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[01:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: And obviously there's been a sequel, and there's going to be a third one coming out, I think, in a year or two. I can't remember if it's 2024 or 2025, but there's definitely a third one coming out. So if you've been living under a rock, this 2013 mega hit Frozen is a Disney movie inspired by Hans Christian Anderson's fairy tale the Snow Queen. Again, I just love using fairy tales to talk about mental health stuff and development and attachment and all the things. And it won, like, a bazillion award. It won an Oscar for best animated feature, best original song, which, you know, gave you a little preview of. It won a Golden Globe. It won a BAFTA award. It won two Grammy awards. I mean, just huge. And have you seen this before, Portia?

[02:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes, I have. And I do really like it. Yeah. I really like frozen. The music is wonderful.

[02:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: I do, too.

[02:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[02:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: So good. It's so good. The music is right on par for me with Encanto, where I don't mind listening to it. It really gets in your head. And I know I keep talking about my recent Disney trip, but it's just because it was so much fun, and there's just so much, like, frozen paraphernalia everywhere.

[02:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yeah.

[02:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's great, right? Because everyone loves frozen, I think, also because it was, like, the Christmas time. So it was easy to incorporate. But, like, at Hollywood studios, they have a whole frozen sing along, which is great. There's some characters, and then there's some funny narrators, and then you get to sing some of the songs with the kids, and Elsa comes out, and all the little kids go crazy. You can meet Olaf, and it's just, like, adorable. And I just think one thing I love about this movie is it's just so different from the classic Disney movies where it's not like the girl finding her true love in a male partner. It's like the sisters and their love between each other is, like, what saves the day. It's so beautiful.

[03:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I didn't watch it, I think, for, like, a year or two. But it's so funny because I was like, oh, at the end, her sister saves her, not the guy. And I was like, oh, I wish that her sister could save her. So, obviously, that memory had stayed with me, but I don't know why I thought it was, like, my idea or I had this epiphany that, oh, it could be, like, family love or friend love, but obviously, Disney knew what they were doing, and I love that twist to it. I think it's, like, such a difference from the traditional Disney princess movies.

[04:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And it's like one of those messages that, like, so glad children are seeing and internalizing these days. So I wanted to start, if it's okay if I take the lead, um, just talking, know, once again, their early childhood attachment styles.

[04:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know.

[04:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Total shocker that we want to analyze the attachment styles of Elsa and Anna.

[04:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[04:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Did that cross your mind at all?

[04:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it crossed my mind with Anna, with. And you're going to talk more about the types, but her disinhibited social. Right. She'll go with anyone.

[04:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my Gosh.

[04:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You guys are the best, or I'm in love with you. And they just.

[05:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, yes, exactly. So, again, we see. Okay, so Elsa is older than Anna. We don't exactly know how much older, but I think, like, nicely displays, like, eldest daughter syndrome, which is not a real syndrome, but funnily enough, have you been seeing that thing floating around on Instagram? I love it. It's like, we do need to add it to the. It's just so funny. But anyway, we kind of saw that again with Kanto, with just. It's funny. So Elsa is a little older than Anna, but they're still pretty close in age enough to be, like, playmates and stuff. And we see early on that as they're playing Elsa has these powers that she doesn't know how to control, and it hurts Anna. And so, very early on, we see her parents take them to the trolls, which are really cute. I guess they're almost like the medicine men of Arendelle, who give them the advice, know, in order to heal Anna, they have to remove that part of her memory. And interestingly, it leaves that wisp of white hair. So there's always, like, a trace of it, right? It's always a trace of the trauma, even if you can't remember.

[06:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's a good metaphor.

[06:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, for repression, right? But then she forgets that bond with her sister, and then it's almost like the parents lock Elsa away from everyone because she can't control her powers. And I always just thought that was so interesting and so sad. And, gosh, really sends the message to Elsa that you hurt people you can't control. Right. Like, how did you interpret that?

[06:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I loved watching it, knowing that we were going to record, because I felt like I thought about it in such a different way. And with her, it was just like, exactly what you're saying with repression. But it's like, Elsa has to be so perfect and feel nothing, like a shell, which we're not wired to be, in order to not have any emotion, which will then kind of send the ice and snow all over the place. And so I think that's often, like, a message that some people get. You can't be yourself or your emotions are too big, and so then we tuck that all away, and then what happens? We explode.

[07:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. And also. Great. I just was thinking, like, I wonder if Elsa struggled with disordered eating and perfectionism. Maybe OCD.

[07:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Again, we don't profile with those kind of disorders.

[07:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. She's at risk for those things. And even with wearing her gloves to prevent the ice, I could just see some OCD type behavior she could develop. We don't see that in the movie, but, again, being super analytical. But, yeah, just, like, even if you just use the ice as a metaphor for emotion. Oh, it's beautifully done. It is, right? It's so beautifully. So, like, basically, Elsa's emotions trigger the ice, which hurts her sister. And I think all siblings can relate to this, that sometimes they hurt your siblings. There's conflict. But, like, gosh, it must have been so hard for Elsa to be so locked away and so scared and to be trying to control it but not being able to yet. And it's like, girl, she just got to just let her grow up.

[08:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the blame. Right.

[08:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: The self blame the shame. Really intense. And then we have Anna, like, on the other end.

[08:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes.

[08:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Who's also isolated but in a different way.

[08:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. She doesn't know. Right. Like, she doesn't know why. It's just, like, everyone's treating us this way. That's just how it is. No one's explained it.

[08:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: You don't get the sense, like. So they weren't let out of the castle either. Like, the doors were shut. They're all in.

[09:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The windows were shut. It's dark. It's, like, empty.

[09:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's cold.

[09:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which I just think is whole movie's way of talking about isolation.

[09:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. What that feels like. And so then even you have Anna. I'm like, did they each have a separate tutor? They don't have any friend. Did Anna at least get to talk to the staff? She at least would talk to the. Like, she could at least use some make believe or. But, like, she was also isolated but not alone in a room. She was, like, in a big old castle. But I got the sense she had more interactions with her parents or stuff. Like. But, like, not enough, I think, to develop secure attachment style.

[09:44] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Definitely felt neglectful after Elsa had hurt her. And then when the parents.

[09:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, the parents always have to die in Disney movies. And at that little show I was just talking about, the frozen sing along at Disney. That's one of the funny things they mentioned. They list off all, really, movies where the parents died. It takes him, like, ten minutes, all of them. Right. And I was trying to figure out how old were they when the parents died? It seemed like at least adolescence or young adulthood. But it's tragic. It's unexpected. It's in a shipwreck. It's really sad. So they barely had any social connection. Their parents were like, it, and now they're gone, and now they have to figure out what to do. Right.

[10:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm wondering if the parents had been alive, still would know, and maybe any parents. No one gets it perfect, but I wonder if they would have helped Anna or, I'm sorry, Elsa later on with maybe taking her to the trolls again when she's an adult helping her. But it's like, regard will never. So, like, she didn't get any help in kind of trying to regulate her emotions. So first the message was right. Like, I'm bad. I hurt people. There's something wrong with me. But then the loss of the parents, which was obviously wildly impactful, but then there was no opportunity for her to receive a different, like, she.

[11:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's like, just, like, compounded psychological isolation and alienation. Right, yeah. And then we see how each girl, Elsa and Anna reacts to then interacting with society, and they take such wildly different approaches. Right. So do you want to speak to that a little bit?

[11:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I thought. And again, the music is just so wonderful. I loved the whole song. When Anna is watching them open up the castle, right? She's running around, she's seeing the light. She's going through the gates. She's, like, dancing around everyone. She's so excited to finally get her needs met and be around a million people and talk to everyone and look at everyone, and then obviously, like, polar opposite. Elsa is so terrified of what she might do, what might happen. It's visible, which I think is great for kids. Like, Anna's like. And then Elsa's just, like, there with her gloves so tight, like, her chest, her body language.

[12:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Just trying so hard to not feel anything, but actually feeling a ton of.

[12:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, yeah. And I forgot that the guy who Anna meets was bad Hans. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[12:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, not to go back to that little show, but it was so funny in that little show at, like, they run through the plot and everything, and they put Hans up on the big screen, and the man narrator was like, he's literally wearing a red flag because he wears, like, a red. Oh, my God. I thought that was so funny.

[13:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I was like, yes, that's hilarious.

[13:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's such a good example of love bombing, right?

[13:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Like, a perfect example.

[13:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Perfect example of just, like, again, when we say love bombing, that's not, like, a technical term. Like, we don't use that diagnostically. It's not in the DSM. But it's, like, this way of interacting that people often with malicious intent, whether they're fallen, the narcissistic spectrum, the antisocial spectrum, or they're just manipulative. This way they relate to you to really suck you in. So love bombing might be really quickly praising you, idealizing you, buying you gifts, flying you on a private jet, proposing you love.

[13:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes.

[13:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Mirroring back whatever you're interested in, they mirror it back to, like, oh, my God, me? Like, you feel like you've met your twin. Know stuff like that. Such a perfect example. And again, I was stoked that Disney is displaying this, as hopefully, all the children watching are internalizing this as a cautionary tale. Right?

[14:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Elsa even says, like, you can't.

[14:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Marry someone you just met, which is.

[14:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Totally accurate, like, day of. Right. Like, we shouldn't be doing that. And I think it speaks, know, on polar opposite ends of the spectrum, I think that's an appropriate advice to give. However, it's also Elsa giving that advice who's like, I don't know. She would never want to be with a partner, or that could never happen. And then Anna is so vulnerable to someone taking interest in her and talking to her that it's so easy for her to be swooped up, which people who are malicious often can pick up on.

[14:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: They can sniff it out. Right. I think that's like, you just got to be so careful. And I think if you have a personal. This is not medical advice. I have to give that disclaimer, but I might recommend, if it were, that if you have a personal history of attachment, trauma or neglect or abandonment or abuse, just know that you might be at risk for really craving that love and attention and validation and approval. And people with these traits and malicious intent, they can sniff that out.

[15:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Totally.

[15:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: I just think you're more at risk for being exploited or sucked up in that way. I just see this all the time with patients.

[15:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[15:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Especially I'm thinking of children, adolescents with early childhood trauma, or even certain types of intellectual disabilities or things like that. People who have nefarious intent will prey on vulnerable people whose defenses are lower. That's just like, how it happens, right?

[15:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I wish there was. I'm curious, the science behind is it the body language that I guess classic, maybe like, I'm thinking narcissist or sociopath is picking up on? How do they know? What are they reading? Is it like, not in my heart body language.

[16:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think also another thing that I read somewhere along the way in my training or readings or whatever, is that people who have a secure inner sense of themselves feel like they are worth being treated with respect and are worth having their own boundaries and know that they can say no or are able to stay in touch with things that don't feel good and know, like, I don't like that I'm going to pivot and move a different direction.

[16:41] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[16:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: So the person trying to get to you isn't going to get to that person, right. Because they're going to turn away from them. But the person, maybe who doesn't have that secure inner sense of themselves or who struggles to set boundaries because it wasn't modeled for them or their own boundaries were violated in childhood, it's going to have a harder time naturally turning away from them. And I think that's when those people are like, aha, I might be able to get you. So let me lay it on thick and really try to get my claw. Does that make sense? I think that's at least part of it.

[17:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was just thinking of, like, I don't know if it's him, but I think Ted Bundy really, truly, classically, like a predator out there kind of at a bar or somewhere, and it's like, just kind of scanning the room. And I think somebody has spoken about being surviving because they didn't go with them or something like that. And this is so just not maybe true at all. But I wonder if they had a secure attachment or, like, oh, I don't really want to.

[17:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: They didn't.

[17:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Versus noticing someone who's maybe seems really uncomfortable or insecure, kind of looking around and like, okay, that person looks like I can be really nice and make. Yeah.

[18:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Even as you said that, portia, you sort of hunched. Like, even your own body language as you're describing what you imagine it might look like. I think you're right. And I think these people are really good. I think especially sociopaths or people with antisocial personality disorder when it reaches that level. Like with Ted Bundy, he purposefully feigned illness or injury to lure his victims in. So it's only going to be the people who have a kind enough heart to go help that he's going to get. So already, there's going to be other people who are like, I'm too busy for this, blah, blah, blah, blah. These other people with a kind heart could also be busy, but put someone else's assumed needs ahead of their own and then get sucked in. Right? Yeah, but people with really pure, really nefarious, antisocial personality disorder are experts at mimicking human emotions and behavior without actually feeling any of it. So you've got to imagine they have been studying this in other people in a way that other people aren't. And again, this is just my opinion. This isn't like, I don't have data to back this up, but I think that they're just really astute at picking that up. And I always say, just, like, sniffing out the vulnerability.

[19:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which, again, Elsa was right, or Anna was right in front of him, but there was no way he was going to be approaching Elsa.

[19:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: He might have wanted to, right?

[19:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But she.

[19:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wouldn'T even. Again, Elsa's not even out there in the crowds trying to make friends.

[19:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

[19:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Anna's, like, everywhere. And then I bet Hans, when they fall into the boat together, could quickly pick that up, that she's so eager for attachment or friendship, that she has that vulnerability that he's going to use it and exploit know. Yeah, it's a really interesting, he's, you.

[20:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Know, the red flag guy. I love that. I wish people could walk around with their red flags because some red flags are just red flags. For some people, it's like, oh, that's not a good thing for me. But other red flags are like, danger, danger, avoid.

[20:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think the thing is that people who, again, their early needs are not met or their own boundaries are violated or things like that. People who struggle with their own types of boundaries for whatever reason, whether it's something as severe as early childhood abuse or neglect or it's just like you grew up in kind of a dysfunctional family. I just think when you're vulnerable to this, you're almost, like, good at talking yourself out of your fear response.

[20:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes.

[20:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: And we've talked about this before, too, how in our american culture, women are kind of just, like, conditioned to do. Right?

[21:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think we talked about Barbie.

[21:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: With Barbie. We've talked about it with you when she's being stalked.

[21:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes.

[21:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: You talked about a lot how in our society, women just walking around over the course of their life will face sexual harassment, sexual assault, like things like this. And you're just sort of told to like, well, that's boys. All of those messages get internalized. And I think people who maybe fall victim to these situations, again, it's not their fault by any means, but I think someone who can stick with that fear response and internally validate it and listen to it and get out of there is very different from someone who might feel it but then has been conditioned to undo it or minimize it and validate it for themselves. So then they're like, well, I'm probably overreacting, rather than being like, no, this is my gut telling me to get out of here.

[22:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think it's so like Anna was in love with Hans when she meets Christophe. Yes. And so I think it's nice because they got to develop this friendship where, like, did have boundaries, and it was like, friends. And we don't do this. And I'm being more direct with you and I'm kind of being more myself, whereas that, again, within the context of the movie, I think sets, like, a good groundwork for it being safe, even when then they are in love. I'm hopeful about that relationship because it started that way where it was like she throws the carrots right at his head because she buys them this stuff and he's helping her, but she's like, oh, get away. I just think it's good. They're evenly matched then. Because she's in love.

[23:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly, but. And she's not. Like, I could see Anna, like, with Hans. Like, at first it seemed like when they're singing that song together about finishing each other's sandwiches, she's saying things and he's mirroring it back. But I could also see it go the other way where when she feels like, oh, this is it. Yeah, I'm finally in love. Like, I've always wanted to be in love. I could see her kind of, like, changing herself to mirror his interests and needs so she doesn't lose. Like, I think she has attachment trauma and she's going to be afraid of loss. So anyway, then we see. Where do we go to next? I mean, I want to get back to Elsa and how she banishes which.

[23:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which. Which makes sense, such in the context of her greatest fear. So she loses her gloves, and then she loses her emotions, which are normal emotions to have at that time. Like, this is scary. Coronation. Like, all this is pressure. And then she puts up that wall and everyone sees her. And then that mean little man, weasel man, is like, she's a witch or.

[24:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, she runs away. Like, who wouldn't run away? Like, so much pressure. She's got no model for how to do this. No one's ever really helped her regulate her own emotions. Elsa needs some good old DBT, but. So she runs away. She's avoidant. And she just, again, is, like, really good depiction, I think, of avoidant attachment style. Right?

[24:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that way. And it kind of is physically, but it is also for her, too.

[24:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I just love in the iconic musical sequence of let it go, how she just. You see her feel so comfortable with just shooting out the ice, building the wall. She takes her hair down. She changes her outfit. Right? You see her just grow into herself. And the lyrics of the song are actually so moving when you think about it, as you could apply it to anyone, maybe especially girls, just being like, shed this image of perfection. Just like, be yourself. And then she's like, the cold never bothered me anyway. It's like, yeah, you can feel all these negative feelings.

[25:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You're a snow queen.

[25:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're a human. We all have negative feelings. It's okay. It's just really beautiful. But then you still see how it creates such interpersonal conflict with Anna, who, despite everything, still wants to be her sister and is worried about her and goes after her. Anna's not like, okay, I'll be queen. Right, bye, Elsa. Like, I'll do know which maybe some people, like one of the succession siblings might have know, but she wants to go find her and she loves her. And I think that is that thread of that early connection they had. And again, playing with the snowman back when Elsa had the powers and they were kids and they'd sneak into the ballroom and play with them and it was not dangerous yet. And then I just thought it was really beautiful that then Olaf is this concrete depiction of that bond they have that helps bring them back together.

[26:16] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. It is a happy ending in the sense that I think of Anna kind of, kind of repeatedly, even throughout childhood, trying to get Elsa to play with her after, like, kind of banished as, like Charlie Brown continuing to kick the football and getting it pulled out over and over and over again and how painful that. But, like, at least in this scenario, it does work out. Her consistent kind of, I'm here. I want to be your friend. I want to be your sibling. I want to be your sister. I want to love you works, but in other ways sometimes not in this movie, but it doesn't. And it just really painful.

[26:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: It just reminded me of totally different vibe. But in the bear season two and the finale, when Richie is outside the freezer or the fridge that Carmen's stuck in and Carmen's just spewing all this hatred and venom vitriol at him and Richie stays constant and is like, I love you, I love you. It's just like that's sort of the same thing. And also is trying to push her away, know, building the ice castle, making that big snowman guy and trying to keep her away. But Anna keeps coming. Again, could it be at her own detriment? Like, she could have gotten really right? Yeah. Again, like, Anna's vulnerable to continuing to seek out people who might be hurting her, but in this way, it has a good ending.

[27:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Which is why it's worth it. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

[27:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sometimes it's not worth it. And that's really hard when you're faced with a situation like that, when it is your sibling or it is a family member or something and the hurt that they're giving to you exceeds the love or the connection you're able to share with them. That I think can be when at least with my patients, we start talking about some hard boundaries to set.

[28:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's true. I know we talked about it a little bit, but even just like, the grief, I were wondering if the staff could have been there for them. But I mean, man, like, someone needed to step up in that castle, whether it's like, the chef, the nanny, the teacher, just to give them some kind of connection. Because the song that Anna sings when they're opening the gates, it's really sad. It literally sounds like it's dark. Like they never are able to see outside. Like, ever.

[28:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was wondering, did she ever feel the ever, like, what is her vitamin D level? How's her bone?

[28:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, I know.

[29:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's really interesting, right. That even if you look at those lyrics without Kristen Bell singing it in such a animated, happy way, it is pretty sad the first time in.

[29:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right?

[29:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Whoa.

[29:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[29:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Whoa. But then neither of them is showing, like, a reactive attachment style, which we talked a little bit about in our episode last month about the Grinch. So they had some thread of connection. I do think it's like those early years with their parents playing together. The gates were open. They were out and about. So that did, I think, help set this stage. But then it got disrupted. And I just wonder, will they feel angry toward their parents at some point for keeping them so far to how are they going to bridge that know.

[29:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. And then we see Kristoff with his enormous family of the trolls. Trolls I know, like, adopt, talking about, which is silly, but, like, embarrassing him in front of Anna about, like, you should date. You guys should be together and why not? And I thought that was, like, a silly, fun part. I also liked that it wasn't that they were trolls and he was in the family. I thought that was just, like, a cute way of showing different versions of families and what that means.

[30:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And that you can be family and not look the same in that. Again, there's such interesting parallels with the Grinch in this. Know, that was just, like, totally cool there. But in the was, he was totally ostracized for looking different.

[30:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Yeah. And then there's more trauma with Elsa being arrested and sentenced to death and then Hans telling Elsa that Anna was dead and vice versa. Him leaving Anna to die after she thinks that that's the love of her life.

[30:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what's going to save. Yeah. Yeah. Hello. But that's what people like Hans do. Have we seen you, like. Hello.

[31:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Literally. Literally being chained in a.

[31:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what. Again, Hans has one goal in mind, and he wants the power at any cost, and that really displays it. Getting back to, like, I did find myself wondering, why is everyone pushing on like, he doesn't have to like her.

[31:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[31:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: She wasn't that nice to him at know.

[31:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Whatever.

[31:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's a Disney movie. Okay. But I was like, why? We don't have to fall in love.

[31:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's okay.

[31:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: We can just be friends, but. Okay.

[31:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it seems like maybe. So what made him come back? Was it the donkey?

[31:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[31:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like the. Yeah, because she's in love with Hans and happily ever after. Yay. But why does he come back? He finds out what's going. Forget.

[32:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, like, how did he meet Anna?

[32:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, when they. So, like, he takes her back to Hans or to the castle to be like, hans, save her, like the love of your life, and then he leaves, and then why does he come back to save her? He finds out that she's not being saved or something. I can't remember because I'm wondering if that's the. Like, when does he move? Oh, like, she's. He. She's. He's going to get a new sled, apparently, or she bought this stuff for him. I don't know.

[32:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know Christoph took her to the trolls when it started to freeze because Elsa's powers, like, her heart, and that's when the trolls said only an act of true love will save her. So then he's like, okay, I got to get her to Hans. So he takes her and delivers her to Hans, and then that's when Hans also has Elsa and is locking her away and telling them different things. And I think as they're trying to escape, somehow, I feel like, if I remember correctly, Olaf got involved and helped shed light on it somehow. And I think somehow in there, when Elsa escapes, he runs into her, and that's when the plot gets.

[33:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Two days ago. And I don't know why I can't remember, but it's just like a switch, right? It's, like, sudden, maybe thinks she's cool, but then all of a sudden, they're in love, right?

[33:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. It's Disney. So, again, I'm like, well, it's healthier than. But healthier.

[33:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[33:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: And maybe we'll just kind of, like, see where it goes. Have you seen the second one?

[33:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I haven't.

[33:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, well, maybe we can cover that one next if people like this. Any final thoughts as we wrap up?

[33:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I think if you haven't seen the meme kind of going around about the older sister syndrome, I think you should check it out. I think it's hilarious.

[33:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's so funny and just speaks to.

[33:57] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Elsa, kind of type a, and just like, all the things that come along with. True. It's so true.

[34:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, thank you so much for listening again to our first episode of the new year. We're excited to kick off our second year podcasting and couldn't think of a better movie to start with. Please rate, review, and subscribe if you're enjoying our content to help us grow, please follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast we love interacting with people, so if you have any recommendations, we'd love to hear them and you can find us on YouTube as well. I forgot about that.

[34:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[34:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: All right, we'll see you next time.

[34:33] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye.

[34:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe. That's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are rereleasing our most popular episode of 2023 - Greta Gerwig's BILLION DOLLAR HIT "Barbie." We analyze the film's smart, timely, and campy explorations of femininity and masculinity. We loved exploring Barbie's evolution through a developmental lens and decided that therapists are basically "weird Barbies" helping our patients grow into their most authentic selves. We loved the sprinkling in of so many dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT) principles, and the tender moments depicting evolving mother-daughter relationships. Plus, we could watch Ryan Gosling beach all day. We loved this movie and hope you enjoy this episode!

Instagram

TikTok

Website

[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Furey, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there and it drives us nuts.

[00:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Welcome back to another episode of a podcast hosted by Two Wise Trees. If you didn't catch that reference, we are obviously talking about the new Greta Gerwig film, Barbie. And that was a line in the film at one point, and I just chuckled. Know, we have a podcast now and we're covering it. And we went to the movies all for this. And it was just funny.

[01:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And we are two trees basically rooted.

[01:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Firmly into the ground.

[01:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Secure.

[01:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Secure. Stable. Nourishing. With our branches.

[01:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Fruitful.

[01:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: Fruitful. Nice. With our branches just growing and blossoming into the sky where it takes us. I know it could have been a haiku. So anyway, we are really excited to talk about this film today. As it stands right now, we are filming or filming we are recording this episode in late July, and I checked the stats yesterday. Barbie has grossed already over $500 million worldwide.

[01:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's incredible.

[01:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Incredible. Especially because it's like double what Oppenheimer has grossed. We will also be covering that film a little later on. So that makes me really happy. Yeah, I was really excited when we went to the movies, Portia. And it was packed, packed, packed. Mostly women, but some men as well. And it was a matinee. We went at 01:00. And I just was like, see, Hollywood, you can make female driven material and you will still sell tickets.

[02:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Everyone was so excited. There was a ton of people wearing pink. It was just so fun. And I felt connected to people in theater.

[02:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, right?

[02:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which I feel like I've never well, I did when I saw the last Harry Potter.

[02:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was going to say Harry Potter.

[02:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Everyone was clapping, everyone dressed up. It was emotional.

[02:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was an experience. Right. And that's like the joy of going to the movies. And I think you had said to me that you hadn't seen a movie since before COVID and probably then two years before that. So long time. But totally, as you were saying that, it reminded me of when I would go see Harry Potter with my friends, like in high school and yeah, it was like a whole event. And this is totally what that felt like. We were a little bummed that there wasn't the Barbie box.

[03:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think it's because we weren't.

[03:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: In a major city.

[03:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Or even just like a big mega theater, because I know some people who went in another part of our state and they did have the box, but it was like a big complex, like.

[03:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Next to a mall, all that stuff. Yeah, well, it was still great.

[03:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was bummed. Sorry.

[03:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I did bring a couple of my daughter's Barbie dolls, which was an interesting thing to be carrying around as an adult woman. We went to lunch beforehand and we had them and it was just interesting, I'll put it that way. Content.

[03:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it was silly, but we were probably the youngest people at lunch by like 30 years.

[03:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, at a minimum. And I was just curious what they.

[04:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Were thinking 100%, because I don't think.

[04:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was on their radar that Barbie was coming up. Although maybe, but I don't think so. And then here I am, just slept around with some Barbie dolls in my purse and we're trying to take pictures of them with our drinks. And I did feel weird.

[04:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[04:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: But you tell me this is what content is and we're really trying, and you held them.

[04:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was like, yeah, it's fine. I'm not holding them.

[04:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: But they were cute.

[04:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's funny. So, first impact of the movie, what did you immediately think? Leaving it, just feeling wise?

[04:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my gosh. Well, I mean, I think I was so excited for this movie because I had a feeling it wasn't going to be like Stereotypical Barbie, right. Just because Greta Gerwig was attached. And I had a feeling it was going to be really smart and kind of meta. And that was what I was hoping for, was it would be a commentary on the female experience. And I felt like they totally delivered. I just loved the opening. I loved all of it. But I really loved The Know, where they show all the little girls playing old fashioned dolls and playing mommy and all this stuff. And then all of a sudden there's this big Barbie in her swimsuit and they just start smashing the **** out of these baby dolls. And I just was like, all right, I'm going to like this movie right away. It caught. I just I don't know. I thought it was so campy and funny, but also really know. I cried at the end when Ruth and Stereotypical Barbie were talking and like, wanted to become human, and they were talking all about the complicated human experience. And she said the thing about mothers, stand still so their daughters can see how far they've come. That's when it got me. So I just felt everything and I want to see it again. I already want to see it again.

[05:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought about it a lot after we left.

[06:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Me too.

[06:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I felt like all sorts of emotions, which I think was I wasn't expecting that. I thought it would be like touching, maybe, and silly. I thought I'd laugh and maybe cry. But I thought about it for the entire weekend. I do want to see it again and I was just really touched and really moved, thinking of different parts. I think that's also why I want to see it again, because I think I'll pick up on maybe some more things or some moments, some things that I didn't catch.

[06:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Yeah. I mean, I am astounded by the writing and the dialogue and how it is just so I feel like just really spot on in exploring the female know, by going from Barbie world to the real world, then back to Barbie world and just the way it sort of touches on the idea of feminism. And I was really surprised that they did such a good job because I think Barbie is so polarizing and they sort of addressed it in a really direct way, but then also just addressed the complex human experience that comes from being a woman in today's world. And I just thought especially right now in the political climate with the overturning of Roe versus Wade, it's just so great, I guess, to have something in your face on the screen that the masses are consuming. Right. I just really loved, you know, this.

[07:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Movie has been being worked on for years and so one of the things I thought was kind of funny was the Supreme Court justices all being female and then in real life, Supreme Court Justices making some decisions that would probably not happen in Barbie land.

[07:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. And just it was so the it was just so witty and humorous, but so spot on. And I just am always so impressed, know, writers, directors, actors can really do like I feel like that's really hard, but is like a really smart way of using a mature defense mechanism, humor, to explore really difficult, complex, gritty issues. Right. And so for them to be able to do that also in such a visually appealing, campy, fun way was just really smart. I feel like there will be college classes analyzing this movie.

[08:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I agree. That's a good so I noticed a little flavor of dialectical behavioral therapy in something that Greta Gerwig had said in an interview that she said about the movie. So I'm going to read it. I'm interested in how life is complicated and messy and that there is nothing that's either or either good or bad, but it's mostly both. It can be all these things at once. And I think that is a what you said before and kind of narrates the human experience.

[09:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[09:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's like everything we feel, all these emotions, everyone will experience know, excitement. And it's like that was that end scene where she's like, you just have to feel and it's like everything it's so overwhelming, right.

[09:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And also just so overwhelming to see stereotypical Barbie or Margot Robbie's character, right. Main Barbie, see that evolution, right. From feeling just good at the beginning. Like in Barbie.

[09:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Everything's perfect.

[09:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Everything's perfect. And that's it. That's all, you know, to starting to realize something's off, like when her feet are flat, to becoming human and choosing that life. Right? Whereas initially, she wanted to go back to where things were just all good and everything was perfect. And then eventually she came to see, like, no, actually, I do want that richer experience. So as we were in the movie, I was jotting down some quotes because I'm a reporter, I guess you could say. And so some of these quotes that they said, I think, really speak to what you're saying. Portia when Margot Robbie said something like that felt achy but good. I think she was trying to describe crying and sadness. And at one point, she's and the release, the release of it, and she was I i just started crying. Like, first one tear came, then a whole lot came, I think, as people are trying to talk to her about what it's like to be human and she's really scared of change, I feel like, is everyone or just people with anxiety?

[10:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think everyone is.

[10:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think everyone. And then if you have an anxiety disorder that's probably a little higher or you might feel that a little more deeply, but at some point, someone says to her that's all life is, is change. And she says, that's terrifying. And I was like, whoa.

[10:42] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[10:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like but I just loved watching her evolution and becoming a human and that whole video montage of women and their children and just women over life. And I guess I was reading that comes from the casting crew. Those are all, like, home movies. How beautiful.

[11:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I've watched that scene, obviously, I guess, Pirated online, like, multiple times where she's crying.

[11:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have to emotionally prepare to rewatch it.

[11:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So like you've mentioned before, when Margot Robbie stereotypical Barbie is in Barbie land, at the beginning, it's all very happy, right? Like, Good morning, Barbie. Morning, Barbie.

[11:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Morning, Barbie.

[11:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, you know, everyone's smiling. Everything is working perfectly. The outfits are immaculate and stunning, and I want them all in my you know, you see her kind of getting up for the day, getting ready, going, everything's falling into place.

[11:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: I did love that there was, like, no water. There's nothing in her cup. It's just so funny. It's like she is the doll, right? And she's being played with. It's just, like, so funny.

[11:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, that's so true. Because later we right. Like, the milk goes sour, and then when she's in the real world, the water goes all over and she's like.

[11:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, I'm not used to anything coming out of that yet. When she was talking to Will Ferrell as the CEO of Mattel, that was funny. Yeah. But what was your thought from the get go of seeing all the Barbies?

[12:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It seemed really joyful and peaceful and like everyone's just saying what they think everyone's saying it in a kind way, but right when we see the scene in the Oval Office when somebody's complimenting someone else, they're not like, saying thank you or oh, no, that's not true. They're just saying, like, yeah, I worked hard, right.

[12:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: When the Barbie won the Nobel Priest prize, she was like, I deserve this. I thought that was really interesting, too. There's a lot of diversity in the cast in terms of race, nationality, skin color, body type. Less so with body type, but it was there. I loved midge. I loved how they did pull in these random Barbies from the past that probably none of us have heard of but really did exist. And they were so funny.

[12:54] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like midge, the pregnant Barbie, total tongue in cheek because they're like calling out themselves, which everyone who was on the film, including Will Ferrell, I think he was like, this looks like a great script, but Mattel's never going to let us do this, right? And they did, and it was so like, I think what a huge risk that paid off for Mattel to let them kind of be poked fun at. And ultimately, I think it really landed well for them. Right?

[13:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I just thought that was totally and so we had like midge, the pregnant Barbie, and they were like, oh, she didn't sell well.

[13:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Pregnant dolls are just weird.

[13:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then we had Alan played by.

[13:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Michael Stera, who just right.

[13:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: I guess it was like Ken's friend, who also didn't really sell well. But you see him just like popping in and out here and there and he's so funny.

[13:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There was a know, I think, hint maybe of that, like he could have been like a gay character. He also seemingly, at least throughout the film, it was very clear that he was like an ally to the Barbies. So I just thought that was clever. And I also just love his. I love Michael Cera.

[14:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[14:01] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So funny.

[14:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's so funny.

[14:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then I thought another risk that they kind of called out, but again, it landed in a really good way, was weird Barbie.

[14:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[14:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, like, weird Barbie had been played with really know, haircut dyed, which I think everyone can relate to Barbie.

[14:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was surprised there was only one weird Barbie and all these other normal Barbies, but again, I thought that was so funny and how they were able to start telling the story about how these Barbies are like being played with. There is this connection between Barbie land and the children playing with the Barbies in the real world.

[14:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. And Kate McKinnon's. Hilarious. I love that she's always stuck in splits, which again, you do that with your just I don't know how they got that so right. Of course, because people played with Barbies who wrote the Barbie movie. But that was the stuff that I was just laughing at and then them, like, whispering, like, weird barbie, like, you don't want to be like her, but if you were down, you have to go see her.

[14:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? So then they were kind of mean. Right? So in Barbie land, it's all, like, kind of perfect, but very superficial.

[15:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But if you're not perfect, then you're like othered.

[15:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I feel like isn't that the major criticism of Barbie? Right, that she has this unattainable body type and makes little girls feel bad about themselves? Right? Right. And so that sort of is already touching on that in a really smart way. And then when Margot Robbie's Barbie, she loses her high heel feet, they become flat, and she starts falling, and everything's starting to go wrong and she doesn't like it, then she has to go see Weird Barbie. And here I feel like if we really zoom out and think about Margot Robbie's development in this film as being parallel to the psychological development from childhood to adulthood I feel like when she first goes to see Weird Barbie and is presented with the two shoes, the stiletto or the birkenstock, which I thought was hilarious I feel like that is Toddlerhood. It's like one or the other, right? She can't integrate both yet whereas at the very end, when she's fully actualized and a full mature human, she's wearing pink birkenstocks, right? So it's like, even just this silly but concrete way of depicting incorporating both elements into your personality as Weird Barbie is trying to tell her, like, no, you got to pick the birkenstock and go to the real world. I felt like it was like negotiating with a toddler, like, presenting them with a choice, but there's really not a yep. And I was just like, this is perfect. We see her as being in the all good land, having some negative feelings. I died laughing. When they're like, at the dance party, she's like, do you guys ever think about dying? And everyone stops and she's like, oh, just kidding. But she's starting to dance or something. Yeah, it was so perfect. And then she doesn't know what to do with these negative things, so she has to go to Weird Barbie, who's giving her this choice, but it's not really a choice. And then she's on this quest to the real world. And I was just like, oh, my God. This fascinating.

[17:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's also why we can't ignore, right? Like, when things aren't going well, right? Ignore anxiety. You can't ignore poor family dynamics. You can't ignore a mood disorder brewing. Like, you have to kind of go see someone. I am Weird Barbie. You come see me. So are you. And we then sit in it with you. Sitting it with you. We go on this journey with you. It's so beautiful so that you can be well and then make a choice at the end that is authentic to you. Authentic. And then you are like, your best self, which means you experience all emotions. That doesn't mean that you're perfect and you're never sad.

[17:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. Or that you never feel anxiety again, or you never feel sadness again. 100%. And even thinking about that portia the journey to the real world, how they have to go in the little car and then on a spaceship in the camper, she goes in all of her Barbie vehicles. I thought that was so cute. But also, if we're staying with this theme, that we are the Weird Barbie. As the Therapist Barbie, you do go on a journey, right, to try to become your most authentic self, your most well self. Which, again, doesn't mean you never have bad days or episodic episodes of difficult feelings and stuff like that. But you do kind of go on this journey. What did you think of Ken in Barbie land initially?

[18:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So if the Barbies were one dimensional already in that land, like, the KENS are I don't even know, like zero one dimension, where are they?

[18:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Where do they live?

[18:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Where do they sleep at night? No one knows.

[18:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: No one cares.

[18:56] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No one knows. But I would say that I thought it was so funny how so much of what Barbie said impacted, you know, Ken number. Gosling.

[19:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really?

[19:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Really? It seems like, likes, loves I don't know, Barbie.

[19:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's unclear. Is it genuine, or does he just feel like that's what his role to play?

[19:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So she gives him some feedback, right? That's, like, positive. And he's like he lights right up.

[19:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's like, really? Wow.

[19:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: His whole day is made. His whole life is made. And then he tries to show off even more for her, which I think is also kind of like a real life thing. Sometimes we get a little over our heads trying to impress someone, like when.

[19:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: They'Re at the dance scene, but then all the KENS come in and start dancing, and he feels really threatened.

[19:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then the beach scene where he goes into the rock wave, and then all the Barbies come and they help him, and then he's fixed right away.

[19:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Which, again, it's like Barbie land.

[19:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You just snap their leg back into place, and they're know. Ken. Ken's were just like I was curious how they were going to fit in or how it was going to become more in depth or important to the story. It felt, like, really silly and just, again, kind of like flat, like no dimension, which I think is what Ken.

[20:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Brings to the table in original Barbie land. Right? He's just the sidekick I loved when I mean Gosh, Ryan Gosling, like, playing this. Like, I think we all love Ryan Gosling all the time, no matter what.

[20:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So listen to this. I heard on Hoda and Jenna, I was watching that yesterday, and they were kind of laughing because Ryan Gosling had initially, before the movie came out, gotten a lot of feedback for, like, you're too old to play. Not they were envisioning.

[20:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're not like the hot guy anymore, right?

[20:34] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Who played Austin Butler, who was Elvis Young. That guy. A guy who's in Euphoria who's like the hot guy, either of them. And it was funny because it was the first time that a guy had been called out publicly too old for a role. And how interesting is it in the movie Barbie? There's all these other themes. So anyway, though, they said, I think it landed really well, everyone who had said that was like, I was wrong and I think perfect.

[21:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: I also think those young guys I don't think could do it. I feel like you have to have the life experience and be able to wrap your head around it in a different way, to have been able to perform the role the way Ryan Gosling did. Which, again, was like, perfect comedic timing, but, like you said, had all these elements of tenderness and insecurity and codependency that just shine through despite the again, like, how do they put this together.

[21:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: In such a perfect all he says is, hi, Barbie. But you can just see his urgency for her to pay attention to him and him trying to catch her eye and bolstering his chest, all of that. Yes, I think someone could attempt to do. But Ryan Gosling just nailed it on the head.

[21:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? And again, the comedic side, but also the tender, authentic, insecure side at the same just I was so impressed. And he's like, so handsome. So that never hurts to objectify him since women have been objectified for decades and centuries and will continue to be. But that is a really interesting point. I hadn't read about that.

[22:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So he kind of goes along with her right, for the ride, which ironically, it was just interesting. If you're thinking he's codependent on her, of course he needs to go because he can't be alone in Barbieland without her.

[22:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? And I just have to address the scene where he wants to have a sleepover. He's like, well, boyfriend girlfriend, I should sleep over. And she's like, why? And then he's like, well, I don't know what we would do, actually. It's just so funny. And then I loved when she was like, but this is my dream house every night's girls night, so I'll see you tomorrow. Yeah. And then she goes into her dream house and they're all like, woohoo Barbie. And it's just like you get the sense it's like a sleepover every single night in Barbie land. And isn't there a part of you that would love yeah, right.

[22:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And she does it in a way that it's like dismissing Ken, but it's kind and it's direct. And there's not all these millions of sorrys. And it's not mean. It's not like, no, I don't want you here. It's just like, I'm with my friends and I'm going to go now because this is my house, really firm. And I think when we see later in the movie. The Barbies are never mean cruel. Putting the KENS down intentionally. And then we see the KENS do that when Kendom comes to be that's a great point.

[23:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. She's, like, turning him down in a direct, assertive, but kind not aggressive way. She's just, like, speaking her truth. But he does take it really hard and feels really dismissed and brushed aside. And that comes up later in Kendall. Right. So that's just sort of this interesting dynamic. Right away, I did feel like he was really codependent on her, like he didn't have his own identity outside of her. It was always, like, trying to rise up and be good enough for her or feel like her equal. And I just think that's so funny because Barbie is about Barbie and Ken's just like the I guess there's, like that was in all the marketing. And it's just really funny because we.

[24:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All know at least I did, like, a million Barbies. I think I maybe had one.

[24:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe one ever. And I think maybe Ken had a little brother. I don't know. Then there's Alan. Who knew? Who knew?

[24:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I would love to have Alan now.

[24:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, me too.

[24:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I wonder if there I know there's I'm sure tons of Barbie collectors. I have a lot of Barbies in boxes still.

[24:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: You didn't bring them to the movies?

[24:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, it'd be huge. I think I got one every year for Christmas. They're all, like, the anniversary ones. You did not take them out of the box.

[24:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Big dresses. Yes.

[24:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so I'm wondering who has the Allen one? Is anyone out there?

[24:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: I bet it's worth a lot. Like, right now, I had one of those, too, that I did take out and give to my daughter.

[24:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, that's nice of you.

[24:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[24:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I'd probably be able to do, like I don't know.

[24:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: I guess I'll have to make that decision. Yeah. It was like the Christmas Barbie, I guess, in your defense, the box broke, so it was already open. It's a much easier choice.

[25:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But anyway, so when we get to the real world, which is where we all yes.

[25:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, they see the billboard of Miss Universe and Margot Robbie's like, oh, look, the Supreme Court justice is just like all of that stuff was so funny to me. And then when she's, like, looking for somewhere safe to land, and she's like, oh, construction site. That's where I'll find the women. And I was just like, oh, no, here we go. Here we right.

[25:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[25:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: And, like, right away, I wrote it down. They get there, and they're walking down. Where are they?

[25:35] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Roller skating. Roller skating.

[25:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: And the way they're able to bring in all the little Barbie props are so funny. And they're roller skating, and everyone's know Leering at Barbie, and she feel I feel ill at ease. And Ken goes, I feel admired, but not oggled. I was like, those two sentences speak to the difference of living in the world as a female versus living in the world as a white man, too.

[26:04] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's not right. It's not most of the time, overt. So I think that's where a lot of people who don't experience this have a harder time understanding, well, they didn't come up to you and slap your behind. It's like but you can feel people oggling you in an icky way.

[26:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[26:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And, yes, you could be like, yeah, of course this didn't happen directly to me. It wasn't over. But there's so much covert ickiness out there, and I think that that's what that moment really, for me encapsulated, because Ken just felt right, like, good and finally was yeah, exactly.

[26:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: She had started feeling, like, some complicated feelings in Barbie land, and now that just continues. And then there's like, what I'm sure will become the famous lines about the genitals, where she's just like, we have no genitals.

[27:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But why did she think to say that? Right?

[27:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Probably to disarm these oggling men, but she knew, push them away.

[27:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'm taking leaps here, but as this doll knew right away that that's what was being looked at, leared at, thought of.

[27:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: So then eventually, we see Barbie finally ends up at the school where Sasha, played by Ariana Greenblatt, is sort of having lunch with her friends. And leading up to that, we started to see some flashes of Sasha playing with her Barbies over the years. Right. And I think that was what weird barbie was trying to tell her is like, you have to go find this little girl and make it right. This little girl, the reason you're feeling these things is because that's what the child who's playing with you is feeling, and you have to go and make it right and come back to Barbie Lamb, put it all back to how it was. So she comes up to her at school, which I thought, first of all, there's going to be, like, a security guard, a metal detector, hopefully, at school these days, we can imagine this woman dressed like a pink cowgirl, barbie. Just like, walking up to you and Sasha being like, who is this woman with a delusional disorder that she's Barbie. Right? And Barbie just goes off into this monologue and, like, slings it right back at her and I think really delivers all the criticisms of Barbie through the years very quickly, in a succinct way. Right. And then we see, like, react to it and be like, what we didn't fix like I thought we did. I thought we showed women you could be whatever you want. You don't just have to be a mother and a wife, but if you want to do that, that's fine. But you can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer, you can get the Nobel Peace Prize, you can be a teacher, and then you're kind of huh. You're right. Yeah.

[28:49] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then Barbie starts to. Continue to be more and more emotional, right? Starts to cry, leaking, which made me think of, like, the grinch.

[28:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: What is um and then she's really upset. And during all of this, Ken is discovering the patriarchy at the school library, gets books on horses, and he sees all these men. He's, like, imitating their arm gestures and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, my God, this is hilarious. But I see where this is going, and this is perfect. And he's just discovering this whole new world where men rule. And he goes in, right, to all these different places of work. I was obviously struck when he's talking to the female doctor and is like, I need to do a surgery. Give me the tools. And she's like, you didn't go to medical school. You can't do that. And he's like, Show me the real doctor. Let me talk to the boss. And she's like, I'm the boss. And he just walks by her. And I was like, security. But oh, my God. Portia I'm sure you can imagine as a female physician, all the times you just get assumed you're not the doctor. And any man walking know, people look at with this reverence and authority automatically just because they're a man. It just spoke to that so perfectly.

[30:07] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I bet.

[30:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then he's like, going into the office building, and I want a high.

[30:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Paying position of power.

[30:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: And the guy's like, well, you don't have an MBA. You don't have a degree. We can't just give you that. And he's like, I thought this is the patriarchy. And he's like, well, yeah, but we just have to do it a little more fly these days.

[30:25] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought that was funny.

[30:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. And so then eventually we find that Mattel gets word that Barbie escaped, right? And then things are like, up in arms, and it turns out the other main character, America Ferrari's character, who's the mom, Gloria in the film. This is where we meet her. What did you think about her character?

[30:45] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I liked it. I didn't know where it was going at first. For some reason, I thought she was like a Barbie creator because she was drawing the sketches. It seems like maybe she was in more like of a secretarial position. And then we find out that she's the one who's connected to stereotypical Barbie memories. And then I loved that it kind of was showing us that scene again, all from her perspective. So now she's in it again.

[31:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought that was really sweet, and.

[31:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was sad because of her emotions, but it just spoke to the transitions of motherhood, I would imagine, right? From having a newborn where you're their lifeline continuing all the way up to an adolescent who's kind of pushing back and having more autonomy and pushing you away and rejecting you.

[31:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. That was really beautiful. And then we come to find that there's this parallel process going on between her existential crisis, raising an adolescent, and sort of trying to figure out who she is and where does she fit in now, and Barbie's existential crisis and that they're actually the ones that are connected. And it's almost like Barbie's starting to feel all the emotions the mom's feeling, and I guess kind of weird for, like, an adult woman to start playing with Barbies again, but makes sense for, I guess, the plot of the film.

[32:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, that's true, actually.

[32:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe that's kind of like me bringing Barbies to lunch and not really, but.

[32:08] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think she said that she was cleaning out the basement or something, and she found some and she kept it donated or throw it away.

[32:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay. And she's the one who's been drawing, like, Deaths Barbie, right. Like, what did she call it? Irresistible thoughts of death. Cellulite. Barbie depressed thoughts of cellulite.

[32:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Which was interesting, which we didn't comment on, which was part of Weird Barbie's.

[32:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[32:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, push. He's like, well, if you choose the birkenstock and you fix this, you won't have cellulite.

[32:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And it's like, okay, fine. Now I'll go which, again, I think is a tongue in cheek sort of reference to Barbie's, like, perfect body and how that's so important to Barbie. Right.

[33:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So then Mattel is really upset that Barbie is in the real world. So why do you think that? Is? It because you do you think that Mattel, besides the obvious ways that they're being nefarious, is nefarious with kind of, like, the patriarchy? Did you get that vibe? I did, a little bit, 100%.

[33:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: I mean, they're all men, like, on the board, right? The only woman we see is Gloria, who does seem like a secretary. She's kept out of the big, important meetings that only the men can go to. I think when Barbie finally gets there, she's like, where's your boss? Let me meet her. Where is she? I can't wait to meet her. And they're like, well, I'm the boss. And I think they say, like, well, we did have one CEO, I think, like, a long time ago. Right. I loved that scene where she's like, well, who does the money? Me?

[33:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This man?

[33:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: And all of it is run by men. I, first of all, love Will Ferrell more than anything in the world, so anything he's in, I love it. And I thought he did a really good job. It's really funny, but yeah, they really wanted Barbie back in her box. I feel like that is just, again, not wanting Barbie to be more complicated than they want to see her and.

[34:11] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: In control of her.

[34:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: They want to be in control of her. And I do think one interesting sort of criticism I've been reading about this movie is, if you think about it right, like, yes, it's doing great in the box office. Lots of themes about feminism and the female experience. Again, still from a white woman's perspective, which I think it's important to acknowledge. And at the same time, Mattel is making so much money from doing this. They have all these other movies in development, like one about polypocket that's going to be directed by Lena Dunham, I.

[34:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Think, with Lily Collins.

[34:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yep. And so they have a ton of things in development that I'm sure are going to move ahead now that this was so successful. And there's been some criticisms, like, okay, so Mattel is this huge corporate giant, right? Like, how many female filmmakers have been trying to push forward stories and movies and ideas about the female experience, but no one wanted to listen until there's this big corporate company that's made all this money from a doll who's a stereotypical female, right. Only now we can listen to women and learn about the female experience. I don't know. I just think it's an interesting thing to think about, and I feel like it is a valid criticism. But then you kind of see that tension here. So I kind of agree with you, Portia, that I felt like the film as a whole did a good job addressing the tension about this Uber. Maybe not Uber, but this film really touching on difficult topics about feminism, using Barbie. But again, that's like, the whole point.

[35:53] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it would have flopped if.

[35:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Was.

[35:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Shown in a good, positive light in the you know, and I think one of the reasons that it's, like, based on what you're saying is because the movie, in an unironic way, slams Mattel. But I'm curious now. Okay, show me your board, Mattel.

[36:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. That's what I mean, right? It's like, is this are you the same board that we're seeing in the how exactly how much is art imitating life? Like, what is Mattel doing behind the scenes? What have they not I don't know. That's not common. Just but again, it raises a lot of interesting questions.

[36:39] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I got anxious when she was standing. She was like, happy to go back.

[36:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: In the put those little plastic ties.

[36:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She goes in the box. And again, those were so funny because that's how your Barbie comes, right? And they start twisting them, and it's getting tighter. See her hands? And she's like, something about this doesn't feel good anymore.

[36:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Good for ghetto. Ghetto good for you. Like staying in touch with your inner.

[37:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Authentic feelings Barbie and picking up on which is a female experience because of our life experiences. Having that third eye, right? Like being a woman. And something about that table over there is giving me weird vibes. Or having to cover your drink or having your key in your hand when you're walking to your car. It's like she started having zero ever experienced that in Barbieland to pick up on that. And I quickly that's just how I interpreted that scene.

[37:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I totally agree. And that she had the confidence to listen to that and not I think maybe because she came from Barbie land, where you are just confident and you're not apologizing for your feelings. They just are what they are. She didn't start invalidating herself, which I think a lot of women are socially conditioned to do. Right? Like, you might feel something's off, but then you're like, oh, I'm just being sensitive, or, that can't be. There's something wrong with me, when it's like, no, you're picking up on something accurate in your environment. So then she escapes and hijinks ensue and her and Gloria and Sasha go back to Barbie land and what do they see? Ken has already returned and taken over. The patriarchy is flying high.

[38:22] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Horses are everywhere.

[38:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: I love that they put TVs in every room of Barbie land with horses on them. And then this is like, oh, no, Barbie land is turned into the real world. Like, all the Barbies are being objectified and wearing really tight clothes and serving the men and brainwashed almost. Right. And it happened so quickly. And we see Barbie and Gloria and Sasha just like, dumbfounded. Right? And what did you think about Kendom?

[38:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was really in a silly way, like really know, like the TVs and just like their interest being so stereotypically, like know. Let's also say that there's many men who are wonderful and allies and not objectifying women and so on and so forth.

[39:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like Alan.

[39:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like Alan, but in the real world. But this was just like such a silly way of calling it out.

[39:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[39:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I loved the horses being the yes, but like and it wasn't like it could have been Ken's, and that would have been the same thing, right? Like, they replaced the Barbie, so it was like horses. It was like really and the hummers and everything's tricked out and lifted and so big. Yeah.

[39:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: And they got a mini fridge full of their snacks and they got the saloon doors. It was just so funny and over the top. But you just see how he just starts to really relate to Barbie in this icky way. And interestingly. I felt like he was still so co dependent on her, but now it was like the roles are reversed. Right. Like before, in original Barbie land, he just wanted her approval to feel good enough, and now he has to put her down to feel good enough. So it's still kind of the same dynamic, just like two different sides of the same coin.

[40:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And commenting on, I think, right. That idea of, oh, he's mean to.

[40:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: You because he likes you.

[40:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. So it's like we even see that when she's faking to go to the beach and have him play the guitar for her and he walks away.

[40:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[40:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's like, oh, maybe, or you're my what does he call her? You're my part time sometimes there whatever.

[40:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're my friend. Yes. And then you're like my long term low commitment girlfriend.

[40:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Low commitment. But he is excited, right? He goes away and he's like sublime. And that does happen even with, I think between both. Men can do it to women, women can do it to men, so on and so forth. Everyone does it to each other. It's like little games. It's like the gamey thing with dating, right? Like, I'm not going to text you for three days, which just it's hard because if someone's playing the game, it's hard to not but I think just no one should play the game. If you really like someone, text them when you get home. I had a great time, let's go out again. If you don't say, I think you.

[41:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Had a great time, but let's stay friends or something. And in that way, in original Barbie land, communication was more direct and innocent. And now things are getting all warped and topsy turvy, and then they decide they have to get all these Barbies back. And I was a little disappointed that it did involve, again, using themselves as sexual objects to kind of distract the KENS to turn them all against each other. I don't know what was your thoughts about that?

[41:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Definitely was like, icky. I wish there'd been a different right?

[41:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[41:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Why did they choose that way? Is it commenting on that? That's like currency, right? We talked about white lotus last week, and sex is currency. And that's where in now Kendom, like Barbie, you do have power. And we see that in the real world of but like, I'm wondering if it was intentionally supposed to be cringy, right?

[42:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, if it's like yeah, in the real world, that is your only power. Now Barbie is to use your body and your sexual power to distract them in order to have the vote and turn it back to Barbie land. That was the part I was like, oh, I wish they'd been able to get it back some other way.

[42:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[42:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I did love when they're all strumming their little guitars and I don't know the song that they picked.

[42:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I did.

[42:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: I recognize it, but I don't know.

[42:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The name of it.

[42:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know who sings it, but it was like, I want to push you around. And it's like aggressive if you think about, like, a man singing that to a woman. Right.

[42:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's not like a romantic song.

[42:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's aggressive.

[42:43] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Don't do that.

[42:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: But perfect for Kendom and all the horses.

[42:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So all the Barbies seem to be brainwashed and they get pulled out of it through Gloria, right. So Gloria has this monologue that she talks about, which I think resonated with a lot of people. We heard some, like, woohoo in the theater.

[43:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sure.

[43:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I thought that was nice. I did really like and we kind of made eye contact when she was talking about body image, and I really, really liked that because before right. They were kind of like I think, again, just pointing out not aging and not having cellulite before. And that's why kind of Barbie Land was like, oh, there's old people in the real world. What is you know, the woman then is like, you're beautiful. And she's like, I know.

[43:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I really like woman at the bus stop.

[43:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So one of the lines is you have to be thin, but not too thin. And you can never say you want to be thin. You have to say you want to be healthy, but you also have to be thin. It's just impossible thinking of every single person, really. Especially, I think, for women, the expectations of your body in the real world is just so hard to live with and so challenging.

[43:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[43:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the messages come early from Barbie, right?

[43:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[43:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And from TV and everything that's around you and from even parenting.

[44:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[44:03] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, a lot of if your parents are making comments about their bodies, even if they would never know their kids, it's all such a message that I think it's right. Like, you can't be too thin, but you can't be too fat and you can't talk about your weight if someone compliments you.

[44:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

[44:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I'm fat and I'm feeling so bad about myself. You're fishing for those. No, you're fine. I think we could have explored that in a whole movie of its it.

[44:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know, it was necessary given, like you said, the criticisms about Barbie and her unattainable body type all along. And I was glad they didn't shy away from that. I was also glad in that monologue, which was so moving, that they also drew comparisons to just the female emotional experience.

[44:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

[44:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, that is a female experience. You can't be to this or to that. You have to just be this version of a woman. And it's just an impossible standard. And why can't you just be angry or be sad or be anxious or be happy or be confident? Like you said in original Barbie Land, no one's apologizing and then they start to and I just feel like that so speaks to what it's like to be a woman. And it's annoying.

[45:14] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I liked you're supposed to stay pretty for men, but not so pretty that you tempt them too much or that you threaten other women because you're supposed to because of sisterhood. You're supposed to always stand out and always be grateful. It's impossible just going back and forth. But I think too, I just watched the documentary on Amazon. It came out a little while ago about the family that used to have a show, 18 kids and counting, or 20 kids and counting. And it's a lot of kids they talk a lot about, just like in a lot of religious organizations. Right. You have to be careful of your dress code so that you are not tempting men.

[45:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, I think that's even like in public school.

[45:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, yeah, the straps and the shorts length, all that stuff. And it's just like, it's not our responsibility to make men feel like they don't want to sexual assault someone or keep your thoughts to yourself. We all we all should also they.

[46:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Should also learn how to manage those feelings. Right. It's okay, right? And girls are going to have those feelings about boys or other girls, too.

[46:19] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, you can think, wow, that person is attractive, and move on. And then if you feel bad about that, take that up with your God and be sorry for it. But it's not your fault. It's not that person's fault that you found them attractive.

[46:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[46:30] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Anyway, back to Barbie.

[46:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, I mean, I feel though I think we touched a little bit about this when we were covering you, which is like, all roads lead back to you because that's such a good show. But when we were talking about stalking and sexual harassment, oftentimes when women finally do seek help, they're often shamed or told, like, well, you kind of asked for it. Or I remember when I was in college, I had, I guess, a stalker. It was kind of weird. And I went to the student police, and their only advice was, when you go to class where that boy is in your class, you should wear really baggy clothes and don't wear makeup. And that was it. That was the advice to keep me safe. It wasn't like, oh, yeah, we should take this one out of your class. We should maybe move him to a different dorm, anything like that. It was like, you need to change your appearance. And so I think that perfectly speaks to what you're saying.

[47:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And again, it's just not that hard. We talked about consent in American Pie, that episode, and it's just really not that hard of an idea to come around. Someone might be into you at one point, and guess what? They might not be into you in another. And, like, you have to deal with that.

[47:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I loved that. With Barbie, it finally know as we come to the end of Know, the Barbies vote in Congress because they've distracted the boys and they get Barbie land back. But then at the end, Margot, Robbie's character wants to be human. She wants more than just Barbie. She wants to feel all those human experiences. She doesn't want to leave Gloria and Sasha. And she talks to the creator of Barbie, played by Ree Pearlman, who was just like, it was so sweet to hear her talk about and I loved how she was like, yeah, they had some tax evasion issues, but that's another movie. But just saying, like, are you sure you want to be human? Are you sure? And then it comes out when she tells Ken, I don't love you. I don't like you. You're a great person, but I don't feel that way toward you. And they could have an honest conversation about how he felt kind of rejected and dismissed and stuff like that, which was, I thought, great for a man character to be able to say right. To be honest about that in a direct, also respectful way, rather than the way he was treating her in Kendom, which was, like, icky and passive aggressive.

[48:52] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And demeaning and I think really contradicts the kind of general critique of a lot of people that I'm irritated with on the Internet, saying that Barbie is demasculating. And I think the end really does the opposite of that. Right.

[49:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: If you have an open mind. Right.

[49:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, to me, it's really clear she's apologizing for him feeling dismissed. So it's like, I see that we were maybe treating you like you felt like you didn't matter and like, you do, and I don't love you.

[49:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's okay. And both can be true.

[49:31] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I understand that people have a hard time opening their mind to different things, but just to me, it's like that scene contradicts their criticism of so, like, did you stay for the whole movie?

[49:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And also, I think it depends on your definition of masculinity, which, again, this film isn't only sort of addressing feminism and the female experience, although I feel like that's the main point, which is, you know, Ryan Gosling's depiction of Ken really touches on the themes of masculinity so well. And I feel like at the end, he comes to find that he can be sensitive and have those types of feelings and express them directly to someone who will listen and validate. Right. He doesn't have to be like a macho man like he was in Kendom. He can just be himself. And maybe he doesn't want his job to be beach. Okay?

[50:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe he wants to ride horses.

[50:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe. And that's what he says. He's like, I just really like the horses. But in that way, I think that is isn't that also part of masculinity? Can't our boys be sensitive and sweet and not feel like you have to lose all of that to be a man in today's society? I feel like that's another issue these days that they did touch on, I thought, in a really thoughtful way.

[50:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No, I agree. Yeah.

[50:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: And so at the end, Barbie chooses to become human, right. She assumes the name of the original creator of Barbie's daughter, which I thought was sweet. We see her get out of the car in her pink birkenstock, so she is fully, actualized, holding on to good and bad, conflicting all the parts of herself. All the parts of herself. It's so great. And we see her going in to sign in for something. What did you think she was going?

[51:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was a job interview.

[51:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought it was a driver's license.

[51:20] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay.

[51:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was the gynecologist. And I could not, because she now has a ******, an agency, an autonomy. And I was just like, perfect ending. I just died.

[51:32] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so unexpected that I think laughs you're like, what? I'm so funny.

[51:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: So funny, but perfect. She was so happy to be there, right? And again, I just think in today's political climate, great job, Greta Gerwig.

[51:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And everyone like, I am getting my womanhood taken care.

[51:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? So any final thoughts, Portia? As we wrap up this episode a.

[52:00] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Little bit, I just wanted to comment on the Depression Barbie commercial.

[52:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: How did we forget about depression, Barbie?

[52:10] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So many people on the Internet were like, why did they call me out? So we see. You know, loose terms on the Internet were binging on sweets. It wasn't really binging. It was eating sweets.

[52:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: It said an entire family sized starburst.

[52:24] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yep. And then watching reruns of BBC's Pride and Prejudice, and she was like, scrolling.

[52:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Instagram, looking at her estranged BFF's engagement photos. It was so funny. And then they were like, anxiety OCD and panic attack.

[52:37] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Barbie sold separately.

[52:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, that was funny. I loved it. And then Gloria finally at the end pitching to Mattel, like, what about just, like, average, like and then again, there's another beautiful monologue by American Ferrara about just, like, the experience of a woman. And I feel like that is she was, like, describing her own experience in a way. And again, Mattel was smart when at first they were like, oh, I don't know if that's going to go well. And then the finance guy's like, those sales will be huge. And they were like, okay, yeah. And I felt like that just also signified. Like, there's still a lot of room to go. We still have a lot of road to cover. But overall, I really loved it.

[53:15] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It gives you a lot to think about.

[53:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[53:17] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And take what you want from it. I think there's a lot of funny themes, and I think it's worth seeing more than once over time. And I'm excited to see it again. I mean, I'm wondering maybe there'll be more tears because I'm already primed, but we'll see.

[53:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was so good. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of Analyze Scripts. Please rate review and subscribe and share with your friends if you're enjoying our content. I did carry around two Barbies as a middle aged woman, so please make it worth it. Make it worth it. You can find us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts and on TikTok and Analyze Scripts podcast and on threads at Analyze Scripts podcast. And we will see you next Monday. Yep.

[54:02] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye bye.

[54:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we wrap up 2023 with a special Christmas-themed episode analzying the Griswold family in "National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation." We have a lot of fun revisiting this holiday classic and trying to figure out what exactly is going on with Clark Griswold!! And building on our holiday theme this month, we end the episode with our top tips for maintaining your boundaries and sanity during this cheerful (and stressful!) time of year. We hope you enjoy!

WATCH PAST EPISODES NOW ON YOUTUBE!

https://www.instagram.com/analyzescriptspodcast/

TikTok

Website

Unknown Speaker: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends. There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts. And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM five, and enjoy. Ho, ho, ho. Welcome back to this very special Christmas episode of Analyze scripts, where we're going to be covering the 1989 classic National Lampoon Christmas vacation. Portia, you have seen this movie? I have, many times. It's my favorite Silly Christmas movie. Okay, good. Yeah. Okay, good. It's a must watch. No, I have to say, watching it once again, I was like, I would be Clark Griswold with my crazy family, and you and Brian would be, like, over there. Happy, Margot. Yeah. Thank you. I love Margot, and I also just love Julie. Drive us so much. I just like how they're know, having their Margaritas. They're having their know. They don't have kids. They're just, like, hot trotting, know. And then there I am trying to hang Christmas lights. Well, I would say as a couple, sure. But then the family chaos, right? True. We do deck our halls here. So we are the brightest house in the neighborhood. I'm excited to see that this year. It's very fun. We do love the holidays. Invite everyone over. So I feel like Margot's a little, know, colder. I love when her and Tod are talking about, like, should we have gotten a, like, it's a little late, but go for not. I don't know. It's just like, the two houses are so paralleled opposite. Yeah. And the fact that they're, like, neighbors, like, they just must hate each know. Seems like there's a lot of. Oh, so we wanted to cover this episode because with the holidays, like, spoiler alert. Holidays are stressful. Did you guys know? But I looked up some quick stats because we're professional podcasters now. And NaMi, the National alliance of Mental Illness, estimates that 24% of people with a diagnosed mental illness find the holidays make their condition a lot worse and 40% somewhat worse. Let's talk about why that is. Yeah. Why do you think? I think that families often highlight things that are wrong, typically because there's so many people. Right? I'm going to use, I guess, depression. Maybe for an example, if you were going home for the holidays and you had pretty significant depression, but you were just going home to your parents and they were relatively supportive, it would be fine because it's just them cooked me. You're going home. You can chill on the couch. You don't have to really do anything. But it's like, no. If you're going to Aunt Sue's house and there's going to be 20 people there, it's overwhelming. Everyone is heightened. There's always tension. There's always some family member that someone's not getting along with, which impacts everyone. There's always stress, oh, we need to clean everything. I love that video. I don't know what social media site it's been on for years. It's like this guy dressed up as a mom and he's like cleaning everything and saying, we have to make it look like we don't live here. Like, oh, it's dirty, throw it away. It's like these people get so intense about patience are so high, so high. And we see that with Clark Grisml just like really wanting this unbelievably high, perfect version of the holidays, which is just impossible. Right. But I mean, just the expectations for the cooking, the cleaning, the finances, the gifts, like the travel behavior. Yeah. Children behaving like all of that. And then let's throw in some alcohol. Right. Which flows freely at most holiday events. And so then everyone's a little bit more loose lipped and we miss things, I think, when we're intoxicated. Right. So we make assumptions. It's kind of a recipe for diSaster. And I think, right, or the perfect SNL skip. Well, that's true. Or the perfect show, like the Bear. Right. So the Bear did an excellent portrayal of chaos on a holiday. If you haven't seen that show, please do watch it and then listen to our episodes about it. So I think, isn't it Thanksgiving or the 4 July or one of them that has the most, like, er visits? Maybe it's Thanksgiving because of the frying, the turkeys. People get stabbed. Like, there's family together. There's so much drinking, there's football. It's like Thanksgiving, I've heard, has like a higher ER rate. I know 4 July does for firework injuries, fire blowing, stuff like that. But yeah. And then, so you just add to it. That's just like baseline stressors, I guess. And then if you add into it, like, someone's struggling with a substance use disorder or anxiety, depression, eating disorder. Eating disorder. Like any of this stuff, grief around the holidays is really hard, especially if you've experienced significant loss around a holiday or let's say you don't have a lot of family. It's a reminder. Isolated. Yeah. It's a reminder of what you've lost. So holidays are really stressful, and it can be really hard to set healthy limits and have healthy boundaries with yourself, both in terms of concrete things, like how much money you're spending on gifts or stuff like that, and then also just, like, emotional boundaries with interacting with people in the family who might be hard to interact with. No, totally. The scene that the movie kind of, like, opens up with is them getting their Christmas tree. Right. So Clark, Ellen, and then the two kids, Audrey and Russ. So John Paulecki, who is in, you know, is little Russ. And then we have Juliet Lewis, who is now in one of our newer favorite shows, Yellow Jackets. Great cast. And then Ellen Griswold, Beverly Angelo. She was a bigger star at a reoccurring role in Entourage as herself now. And she's kind of this rough woman who's like a boss of a competing company. Nice. So obviously, Chevy Chase has been a lot of things, but we immediately see just, like, Chevy Chase's Clark Road rage and just, like, reactivity. Yeah. And, like, selfish streak. You're putting your family in danger. Yeah, exactly. And just, like, impulsivity, too, like, not thinking ahead or thinking things through. Like, they get there and no one has anything to cut the tree down with. And then they get it home and it doesn't really fit. Then we just cut it in half and we get the chainsaw out. It's just really interesting. He's an interesting character, to say the least. Yeah. Ellen seems to be always kind of trying to level head in, make him more aware of what's happening and his choices. And one of my favorite scenes for just comedic reason is when they're in bed that night and they have the sap stuck to their fingers and everything is sticking and just pulling like I just did. They're pulling the lamps and touching paper, and it's just so ridiculous. But if you've ever touched sap, it is impossible to get off. You can get it off with sugar. Oh, good to know. Yeah. Hot tip. But even then he's struggling. He can't do it himself. So he grabs it and takes it on, and then she gets to stop on her. And that's, like a perfect metaphor, I feel like, for that relationship, I don't know how she puts up with him. No, it's a lot. Yeah. All the characters kept saying, like, you're such a good dad. Just calm down. He needed a lot of reassurance. He did need a lot of reassurance, which I don't know what that's about. It seemed like he had some happy memories of childhood. Right. So he has two, you know, still married. They seem. Of the two sets of grandparents, they seem nicer and, like, less. Yeah. So Ellen's parents are very judgy. Francis and. What is his name? Frank. So Francis is played by Doris Roberts. So we've seen her in many, many things over the years. Like, something. Raymond. Everybody loves Raymond. Yep. The mom in that. So she's just like, immediately like, oh, you cut your hair. Oh, you smoking again? And we see Ellen responding to strEss, so she starts smoking. She also, before they even got here, was, like, in bed. In that scene in bed at the beginning, like, I heard everyone's coming. We could tell them all not to. And I was like, listen to that instant. Yeah. Would it be rude to ask them to stay in a hotel? You could just tell they were, like, bracing for it. I loved when all the grandparents got there, how they're just filling everyone in on their physical ailments. I got a bunion. Can you rub my feet? And Russ is like, ew, he wants to die. And then Audrey being like, I don't want to share bed with my brother. It's just, like, so funny. But, like, classic having everyone under the same roof. Oh, my gosh, the grandparents. I just love grandparents. And I personally can't wait to be older, I think. I don't know if I've told you, but I have three careers lined up in my mind. Tell our audience an elder one is to be an actress and be like the elderly grandma in all the movies. Like Doris, right? That's her name, yes. Another is to go hold babies at the hospital. Just be the person, like, in the NICU holding the babies. And the third, my favorite idea is I want to go sit at wedding dress shops and just tell all the brides, like, how beautiful they look every time they come out, just like, really sweet. That's either going to be creepy or sweet, right? Yeah. We'll depend on the bride. Yeah. And their personal history. Right. And I think if I can just be, like, the token loving grandmother with, like, muffins. You look beautiful. Cottage core, your little sweaters. Yeah, exactly. That'll be very nice. But watching this movie, I was like, ooh, I don't know. Yeah. All the grandma a little rough, and they seem to not like each other. It seems like the two grandparents don't get along. Yeah. And that creates a lot of stress for everyone, which I would imagine that being stressful. And also, I think it's lovely to invite people to stay at your house if you have the space, but if people have the means and if you don't, sometimes we got to make things work, and that's lovely, too. But if people have the means, we don't need to sleep on the floor. I don't know. I mean, I know that it's fun to wake up on holidays in the morning with people, but just come over. But is it fun? Yeah. Well, I think you really have to ask yourself that question. I think in this household, it's a no. Yeah. What about, like, Cousin Eddie showing up in the RV? So that was a twist. You could see, like, almost trauma. He's like. He can't believe it. He's just, like, speechless. He's kind of turning his head back and forth, back and forth. So they're all admiring the lights, which seems like it was a very stressful situation for Russ, who's one of his favorite lines of mind that I say frequently when, like, don't want to do something. So he's like, yeah, Dad, I got to do my homework. I got to feed the hog. He recites all these things that they don't have, and I just say that with my partner. We say it all the time. We don't want to do something. So he kind of backs out. And you see Clark lose his mind when the lights are not turning on. Right. He's kicking the Santa. He's having this big reaction, a little childlike. Right. It's kind of a temper tantrum, which makes me think that he doesn't have a lot of distress tolerance or, like, coping. Emotion regulation. Regulation. Strong point. Yeah. Also, it was a lot of lights. A lot of lights. Almost felt a little hypomanic at times. Right. Or, like, impulsive. Like, one thing you had mentioned, hyper focus. Yeah. Is like, does Clark have ADHD? Yeah. I mean, the data is. Think I'd love to do a Vanderbilt with him. Yeah. You added an additional symptom that I didn't see online, but I think it's true. Right. He's very impulsive. Very impulsive. Yeah. Like, with the road rage, with deciding to do this or to do that or just really going with it. The hyper focus. So he can't stop doing something, even at the risk of getting hurt. So that's when kind of some more potential traumatic brain injuries or TBIs come into our count of, I think it was nine head traumas during the entire movie. So he doesn't really give close attention or details. He makes careless mistakes. You see him stapling his little. Stapling his glove. He has so many. But then he doesn't just take his hand out of the glove. He's trying to rip the glove off. So again, decision making, trouble keeping attention or tasks. Doesn't seem to listen when spoken directly to. I can see that sometimes with his kids, he's just kind of looking away or like, how we would say, like, maybe La la Land. He doesn't name misses important details. He doesn't call his daughter Aubrey ever. He's like, oh, yeah, she's over there. Something. It's just weird. And is he being a jerk or is that inattentiveness? Trouble organizing, loses things, all the gifts. Right? He is digging around in the ceiling attic, and then he finds, like, ten gifts from years past. Distracted, forgetful. So there's a lot there where he very well could meet criteria for that. And I think he's also, at least in some ways, kind of a jerk. So, like, you can have ADHD and be a jerk. You can have ADHD and not be a jerk. So it's like a jerk and not have ADHD. Exactly. Diagram. Exactly. Yeah. No, I totally agree. It's interesting to think about does he have ADHD, and is this part of why he's trying to overcompensate? Right, because sometimes I think people will try to do that to make up for it in some way, but then the stuff they're trying to do to overcompensate, like, in this case, requires a lot of planning and organizing and execution, which is hard for anyone, but especially if you add in, like, an inattentive ADHD, he's also really hyperactive, so he's probably bumping around. Yeah, definitely. Even, like, the impulsive things he says to people and some of the altercations he would get into verbally, I think, could meet criteria for that, too. So he's this big family man, right? So there's a lot of things. That's how he kind of identifies himself. But then he's, like, flirting with that woman, Mary Lingerie place. I was, like, so turned off by that. Because then it's gross behavior. When his son comes over, he's like, suddenly like, oh, yikes. Because you don't want your son to see that, right? Because it's bad. I know. That's why he's, like, not, oh, I'm not married. Oh, she. That's Ew. Ick. Yeah. So back to Eddie. Seems like he's had some TBIs. I would say so. And he has some, you know, he refers to some sort of, like, surgery, right. Where he had a meta plate in his head. He refers to the VA. So it sounds like he's a veteran now. He's just, like, living on the road in the RV with his kids. Who. Financial problems. Yeah. He gave his money away to some minister online, it sounds like. Or on TV. Oh, no. Yeah. His kids also have had to TBI. Right. They referred Mary Lou. Oh, her eyes aren't crossed anymore. Right. Well, she got kicked in the head and they cross, and then she got kicked in the head again and they uncross. Spoiler alert, that's not how it works. But in this movie, I guess so it seems like they're kind of really down on their luck. And I'm like, do the kids go to school? Are you trying to convey. They don't go to school. They're just in the RV. And one older daughter's, like, in alcohol rehab. The other one's going to be in the carnival circus or something. So they're just a hoot. And they show up. Surprisingly, you can see everyone's thrilled to see. And it's almost like it's a little sweet because despite their quirks and very obvious comedic role in the movie, it's like, it's sad. They're definitely, like you said, not having any luck right now. But one of the sweeter moments in the movie is when Clark is downstairs with Ruby sue, right? She thinks he's Santa, and he has a sweet moment with her about Santa. And then when they're at the Christmas Eve, they're like, oh, we saw there was Santa sighting over this, and they all get really excited. Like, that's sweet. It was sweet. And that was a cute Christmas Eve with all there and waiting for Santa and stuff. So there are some sweet moments in the movie. That's probably why it's so successful is because it is funny. It is sweet. And I think it also still portrays these family dynamics that I think everyone can relate. Uncle sue just showing up or so and so having a little too much eggnog, right. Or Grandma over there singing the Star Spangled Band or Grandpa lighting the tree on Foster. He's just always lighting a cigar, like, all the time. So speaking of Margot and Todd, in a non psychological way, because this isn't really, like, a diagnosis, but they could use a little holiday spirit. They seem a little like curmudgeony, which is not. And it's only because they are, I think, maybe traumatized by having Clark as a. So. Right. Like, he's cutting down the tree because. Right. As we said, the grandpa, I think it's not Francis, but, like, burns it down. Clark freaks out. Right. Because it's ruining, like, which, again, if you had a fire in your house on the holiday, I would be reactive. But it's not about the fire. It's about, like, we don't have a tree. Yeah. So he goes into the yard. He goes out there with the mask. I know. And just chainsaws it down. It goes through the neighbor's window. Exactly. Smashes it. Meanwhile, they're getting TBIs, falling down the stairs. A lot of concussions in this movie. A lot of window smashing, too. Like, at the end, when the SWAT team shows up to rescue their boss, Todd won't go over and confront. So Margot does. She's ****** about it, like, banging on the door, opens it, and the squirrel attacks her. And then the dog jumps on her. What did you think of the squirrel? So symbolic with chaos. I think it's one of my. I know I've said this ten times already, but it's just such a good scene. It's running around the house. They're all running around with it. They're, like, freaking out. It's like. I don't know. It's a squirrel. But have you ever had a squirrel in your house? I've had, like, a bird. I had a squirrel once. Were you freaking out? Yeah, we were in an apartment at the time. It was a second floor apartment, and we had noticed we were renting it under this sink. There was, like, a hole that was getting bigger and bigger. And I was like, that's never good kitchen. Yeah. I was like, that's weird. And then one day, I just heard this scratching noise. I was like, is that a mouse? And I go and open it. A squirrel darts out. Like. Just like that. Just like the squirrel girl in this movie. Yes. Darts out. And luckily, I'd had the door opened at the balcony, and it ran out there, and I just slammed the door, like, as fast as I could. But it was terrifying. It was shocking. Yes. Just like this. So I was like, oh, my God. I know that feeling. Like, all of a sudden, I thought it was a bird at first in the tree, but then, no, it was crazy squirrel. Yeah. My in laws had a squirrel like infestation in their attic years ago. They have it all fixed now, but squirrels kept getting in. They kept covering the hole or whatever. They kept chewing through it. It was a nightmare. It was so hard to get rid of. And they kept appearing. They'd wake up and hear the scratches in the ceiling. So I guess this is common. Another family member of mine had, like, flying squirrels in his house. They would come in through the light fixtures. They're a little smaller. Yeah, it's just like, what is this? All these squirrels. You know what it also made me think of? Cruzfeld Yakov disease. Do you know what that is? I knew you weren't going to know this. I'm really excited. So random. So say it again. Kruzfeld Yakov disease. CJD. Because this is one of the most interesting things I ever learned in medical school. So there's a class of disorders called prion diseases, where prions are like misfolded proteins that lead to basically bigger cells and stuff, like can't function. So Cruzfeld, the AOC of disease, is something where it's a prion disease, and it's really sad because it's very fatal very quickly, and there's really not a lot you can do for it. So it's people who all of a sudden develop memory loss, trouble walking, muscle weakness, personality changes, they stop eating, and then they die pretty quickly. There's a variant of this that comes from eating squirrel brains. Yeah, that is why I thought of it. I believe it's called kuru kuru. And they discovered this back in an island in Papua New guinea where culturally, people would eat squirrel brains. If you remember back in the day, mad cow disease in London, that's a prion disease that people got from eating infected cows that had the prion disease. So it's very transmissible, which is scary if you eat, but you have to eat the infected meat, basically. So you can't get like Kruzfeld Yakub from sneezing or saliva or anything like that. You get it from eating the tissue. Another reason to be vegetarian. Or there's a random variant, which is what a lot of humans randomly get, and then there's like a genetic variant to where it could run in families. Anyway, so, yeah, in medical school, I learned about this prion disease that came from eating squirrel brains. And I was like, what? But then I thought, what if Uncle Eddie ate that squirrel? Like, I could see him doing that. Well, they've said that they eat squirrels. I know. That's why I started thinking about the preon disease. But no, I don't think Uncle Eddie has the prion disease because he's functioning too well, despite how he's actually functioning. But anyway, just a fun little tidbit that's interesting. Well, if I'm ever in the wild, I will not. Brain. Yeah. Don't eat squirrel. Brain. Yeah. Okay. Fun fact. I think in some cultures, it's like a delicacy. In other cultures, there's some cultures where there's some cannibalism as part of funeral rituals and things like that. And that can lead to pre owned disease. So try to avoid it. Now you know. Now you know, the more you know. So another stressor in this movie is finances, right? So we see Clark kind of planning on this bonus, which a lot of people do have anticipatory kind of regular guaranteed bonuses. And it's like a part of your salary because at first, I remember watching this as a kid and being like, well, why would you overspend, silly. But now I said, he's gotten it for, like 17 years or something. It's a part of your kind of guaranteed schedule income. And so he's planning to, again, have this perfect moment where he has this pool and he's, like, envisioning, right, this pool party with Mary there, which is weird, but whatever. And so then he finds out, right, that he doesn't get it. And he's waiting. And he's waiting. You can see him getting more and more because he already put the deposit down. Exactly. And it sounds like he doesn't have the money to do that, which is without the bone. It's a little risky. But then he finally gets the letter and announces to the whole family, before he opens it, I know what he's going to do with it. Everyone's excited. Everyone can't wait to see it. And then it's the jelly of the Month club. And he, which rightfully so, but loses it, right? He goes on that rant that is bleeped out a lot if you watch it on live TV. It's not if you watch it on the streaming service, but it's like. And it's, again, one of the iconic moments of the whole movie. Eddie, which is super sweet, sees how upset he is, wants to do something about. And he know he doesn't know what to get Clark. And Clark says, all I want is for the boss to be here wrapped up in a bow. And so Eddie's like, oh, light bulb. Oh, my God, he does it. So he goes and gets him, kidnaps this man puts a bow on him. I'm like, where'd you get the bow? Not important. Brings him back from what? Car dealership, literally. And then they find out and then they all crash through the windows. And of course, Ellen's like, frozen, holding. So funny, though. Private party, said, like, freeze. That was like, really funny. And then even the boss is frozen. They're like, not you. But then the wife learns that he went back on his word and did jelly of the Month club and she chastises him for it. She's really upset. And then they learn that everyone's getting more money this year and it's going to be great. And then they're all happy, and I'm just like, whoa, then what happens? ANd then Aunt Bethany sings the national anthem as the know because Eddie put all the nasty stuff in the sewer and Lewis lights it on fire. So they're all singing and it's just like the best moment of Christmas of all. It's perfect. That's what Christmas is really all about, Clark. Family connection, family veterans and fire. God bless America. God bless America. Oh, my God. It's wonderful. It's so funny. It's so funny. But it's so true. Like, the financial stress that can come from the holidays is insane, right? I think just with the capitalist society we live in, the materialism. And you really do lose sight of what the reason for the season, and that's different for everyone. But it's not just presenting money. I think everyone can agree it's not about that, right? I think it is about giving, but within reason. And so, yeah, I think that's a nice spot to sort of start wrapping up, is like, yeah, it is about giving. And some tips I think that we have as therapists for managing stress around the holidays. I think one little catchphrase I really like, which ties in nicely to the fiery end to the movie, is don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. And by that, it sort of reminds you, like, it's okay to have healthy limits and, like, don't overextend yourself. Especially, like, I think moms tend to do this. You see Clark doing this. Don't try to be a superhero to make everyone else happy and just don't. Or if it's too much to go to this house on Christmas Eve, then this house on Christmas Day and then grandparents on Christmas night, don't come up with a new plan. And keep in mind that you're allowed to enjoy your holiday, too. And that, again, trying to keep in mind, like, what's your reason for the season? Yeah. And I think trying to take a step back and figuring out what is your favorite part. Right. Like, what's important to you. Is it being all together on Christmas morning and staying in matching pajamas? Like, great. Is it the food great? Is it seeing certain people great? But it's like, which part brings you the most joy and how can you invest in that and let some of the other things. Exactly. Exactly. And I think one thing I always encourage people to do, especially if you run more on the perfectionistic side or you're really going above and beyond, like we see Clark doing is okay, like, what are your expectations? And then reduce it by like half and just settle into, like, well, how would I feel if only these things got great? Like, try to just take the pressure off yourself a little bit so that you're not just doing and doing and going and going, but you can actually be present in the festivities or the events and you can find some enjoyment in it. Right. One podcast I love to listen to called the Deep Dive, I don't know if you've ever heard of that one, but they always talk about something called, like, tree time, where one of them in her iPhone calendar has like a half hour every day where it's tree time and she and her kids just sit in front of the tree and just look at and connect. Isn't that beautiful? Because they used to spend all this time getting the tree, decorating the tree, putting presents under the tree. But how often do you actually just sit in front of it and take it in and sit there with your kids with no distractions and stuff like that? So I think it's important to build that stuff in. Yeah, no, I think it's really just about connecting with your values and what's going to make you feel connected. I mean, we have typically not for everyone, but like time off. So how can you spread things out? I love spreading things out. It's like, what's better than having three Christmases? So we don't need to fit everything in in that 24 hours period. Right. But I don't know. I like the idea also of you had mentioned just like volunteering and how can you give back in any way, big or small, around that time of year? What does that look like? Can you turn that into like a family tradition and then for managing the stress that comes from family dynamics? I think if you can use humor as best you can, that's always really helpful, especially if there's just that one person who, no matter what, gets under your skin or creates a scene or just stuff like that. You have to keep in mind you're responsible for your own behavior, and that's it. You can't control other people's behavior, their feelings, or how they're going to react. So there's just that one nudge. Is there a way with your partner or someone to kind of turn it into a funny little game? Or how long is it going to be till so and so does this, or till so and so does that? Is there any way to try to just accept what you anticipate will happen and try not to take it personally? This is where I also love to encourage people to put on their. What I call **** raincoats. You just imagine you got your **** raincoat on, and whatever's thrown at you just rolls right off. Crude. It is helpful, though, to have some anticipation, right? So whether you are in therapy, perfect time to talk about it with your therapist. If you have a partner, talk about with them or whoever you are attending, maybe an event with or even yourself you can do this with. But just, like, what do you expect? What do we know about your family? What can you anticipate is going to happen? And just preparing for yourself, right? So if I was going into this holiday event, and I was a guest and I was another cousin coming, I might say if I knew everyone who was there, that cousin Eddie is a little interesting, and he might say some off color things, and he's Eddie. And I'm either going to make light of it, or I'm going to walk in the other room and take some space. And if Clark is saying unkind things to someone or beating himself up, like asking myself, knowing Clark, is it appropriate to get involved? Do I offer him positive feedback? Will that make it worse? We know so much about our families, more than we often think we do, that you just have to spend maybe five minutes going through the people who are going to be there. What do you expect? And then what can you do about it, right? And how can you handle it? How can you maintain your own sense of wellness and your own boundaries? And it's okay and healthier to walk away, to take some space, go for a walk, stay in a hotel, than to find yourself engaging in these toxic dynamics or fighting or things like that. So sometimes even just having, like, an exit strategy or a game plan can be really helpful, even if you don't have to use it. Just knowing you know what you do is really helpful. Really helpful. So good luck. Good luck. I hope you enjoy the holidays. Thanks for tuning into this episode as we wrap up our first calendar year of podcasting, which is really exciting again, follow us on analyze Scripts podcast at Instagram and TikTok. If you're enjoying our content, please please rate, review, subscribe, and share. We're hoping to really grow in the new year and we will see you next Monday. Yeah, take care. Bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe. That's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are covering one of our most favorite Christmas films, "The Grinch." This version came out in 2000 and stars Jim Carrey. In this episode we cover Reactive Attachment Disorder, Season Affective Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder and the impact of trauma and bullying in early life. We don't leave you feeling hopeless so we also share effective therapy for early childhood disruption and stories of healing. We hope you enjoy!

Website

Tiktok

Instagram

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Where two shrinks analyze the depiction of.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: There is so much misinformation out there.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And it drives us nuts. And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Major beauty brand, even better.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Hi.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Welcome to our December edition of our podcast.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Happy Holidays.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Happy holidays near and far. If you are an international listener, which we did just get Spotify wrapped info, right? We're global, so thank you.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We are global. Guys, it's official. Our top three countries on spotify were America, Canada and Norway.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Who knew? So loving the northern European aisles. So we are really excited to kind of continue the December edition of some holiday classics. So today we're going to be covering The Grinch, the Jim Carrey version. So there's many versions, obviously. I think at least I'm more familiar with the Jim Carrey one. Then there's the cartoon, right? The original. And then there's the new cartoon, which is really funny and silly, too.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the new cartoon has some pretty sick beats, has some good music. And, of course, I think we were, like, going back and forth about, do we cover the original or the Jim Carrey version? And I was glad when you agreed we should do Jim Carrey version because it's so good.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. And there's a lot there.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, just like the costuming, the makeup. Every time I watch it, I'm just looking at The Grinch, like, did he just take 10 hours to get in this costume every day?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Probably. I mean, that is a fun fact. All of their facial constructions, the nose for makeup every single day. So I went to at my dance studio growing up, the girl I don't know her name, I should have walked who was climbing up the mountain at the beginning with the boys to, like, the grim. Yeah. So she went to my dance studio.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No way. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So I don't know if she's been in things since, but that was always so exciting.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's like a hot take.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. Anyway.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Taylor Momson was so adorable as Cindy Lou. I know. And that's obviously, like, pre Gossip Girl, but then she went into Gossip Girl, and then she was, like, the lead singer of that really intense heavy metal band. And I'm not sure what she's doing now, but she's just so adorable and was really perfect for the role. And I just loved all their hairstyles, and I'm assuming they were wigs, but just super cool. And then molly shannon, of course I know. Who doesn't love her?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Some of the people when I looked up the cast list, I was like, oh, yeah, duh. That's them. But their makeup and costuming was so good that it just never even crossed my mind that that was my Shannon. But, like, hello, superstar.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hello. Oh, my God, we should do Superstars, by the way, side note.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then I vividly remember this movie coming out. I think I was in late middle school, early high school, and it was like a year when my family was having a hard time and that Faith Hill, Where Are you? Christmas song came out. And it really was like I remember just being like, this is how I feel this year. And even still, it really gets you and I think really speaks to how emotional the holiday season can be as we keep talking about and emphasizing in our holiday episodes. That is a fact that holidays can be hard for people of all ages and backgrounds. And I really loved that this movie and the Grinch story in general really speaks to the meaning of the holidays and that beyond the commercialization of it, it stirs up a lot of big feelings for people. And that's yeah, yeah. Vividly remember hearing that song as a kid and being like just like, oh, speaks to Know.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I mean, Faith Hill is such a wonderful artist. And I think know it came out with the album because Cindy Lou, right? Like, sings in her little beautiful voice, too, in the movie. But then the Faith Hill version, I think, was just like a tear.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. And it reminds me of that song. My grown up Christmas list. Have you heard that one? Yeah, similar, right, where you're just like it's just like really I don't know, something about Christmas music really gets me.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I'm a music crier, so if it is hallelujah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I can easily a lot of the Christmas, even a lot of the church hymns, even not for a sad reason, they're just, like, really moving. Yeah, right. They're so moving.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I was just going to say that reminds me. I recently was at Disney World, and they're doing a lot of their Christmas stuff right now. And I went to what they call the candlelight processional show. I don't know if you've ever heard of it's, at Epcot. So it's this big show that's been going on for 60 years, and they have a big choir, a live band, and then there's always a celebrity narrator who basically narrates the Christian Christmas story, right. And then they sing all the classic Christmas songs with a huge choir. So it's like really emotional, really beautiful. And when I was there, Chrissy Metz from this Is US was the celebrity. Narrator do you know who she is?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I loved. This is us. I feel like in our giveaway, which we'll talk about then in our episode, a lot of people have recommended that to us over the years. But anyway, she was like, balling. She was just, like, so moved by the Christmas story and the big choir. And I think it's just like the music, right? It's, like, so moving.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I attended the online version, but a conference for eating disorders. And it was in the Renfro conference. Yeah, she was one of the keynote speakers, just talking about her experience. And it was like, a couple of people who've been very open about their experience in a larger body and just, like, fat phobia and being an advocate.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, wow.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I was really impressed with what she had to yeah. We both kind of just saw her in two different ways than this is us. So she's getting around everywhere.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's awesome. And actually, I just saw on her Instagram she's coming to New Haven with I guess she's like obviously she's a singer, but I guess with her band or something. Cool. Hey, Chrissy. Matt's, like, we love you. Okay. Anyway, back to the grinch. There's a lot we could talk about. So what jumps out to so I.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Was, you know, using Google as one does when they're looking for movie fun facts and something that I didn't see, but did pop out at me when I was watching the movie. Which is kind of a controversial disorder in the DSM and kind of in I don't know its use, its treatment, but it's a reactive attachment disorder. So I thought of him kind of immediately the Grinch with attachment.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like, he kind of came from somewhere. We don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The storks in the sky. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And he landed outside and then he was cold and alone. I don't know for how long, not a long period of time. But it makes me think of some disrupted attachment and some neglect. And then the two sisters kind of take him in. And then he kind of goes on to continue, though, to not fit in and not have these connections with his peers. And so I thought, just for educational purposes, we could talk a little bit about reactive attention. I've worked I think that's a great idea over the years with it. And again, it's not common. But unfortunately, with the DSM, the current version of it, we only really have two disorders that we can diagnose and bill with. So it's reactive attachment disorder and then the disinhibited social where did it go? Disinhibited social engagement disorder. So everyone really wants there to be way more attachment based disorders. It would be more gentle, I think, with explaining some behavior.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So anyway, like, from childhood to adulthood. Yeah, I think totally.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And we've talked a lot about borderline disorder throughout our movies and TV shows. And there's a lot of talk about borderline often, but not always stemming from attachment issues. DSM, I think Sick should work on that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And I think, too, there's so many different schools of thought in terms of psychological development or schools of thought in terms of how do you do psychotherapy? What's sort of your lens that you see things through? And attachment is a big one. That's one that I find myself just naturally gravitating towards. And I've noticed we talk about it a lot on our podcast, almost every character. You and I are really curious about their attachments. Like with the morning show, we were like, oh, finally we saw Corey's mom. We're just constantly wondering, how did people get to be this way? And I think those early years are so important, right? Like between ages zero and five. That really sets the stage psychologically for how you will relate to adults. Really. Like, those early attachments we talked about in our Harry Potter episode with your caregivers are incredibly important. And, yeah, we see the Grinch as a baby, but like an older baby, like six to twelve months, I'd say, based on his head control and vocalizations and things like that. Dropped off on the stoop. So what happened before then? If anything, it's cold. And then he looks totally different from everyone else. And he's super bullied. Like all those scenes with Martha May when he's so excited to give her the valentine or not the valentine. The Christmas angel.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And even the teacher.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know everyone's like that one scene. Slow laughing, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They're like, yeah, even the teacher. It reminds me of Stepbrothers when the mom gets involved singing songs. Brennan has a know where. It's just like even the adult who's supposed to be protecting you in that.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Space is like adding to it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think a lot of people, even if you have solid, secure attachment, can relate to feeling bullied or laughed at in school. But he really got it. And we really saw how that made him isolate. Totally. Right. Totally isolate. And it's interesting, right? I think comparing how the Grinch responds to that type of early experience know, in a future episode, we're going to talk about Frozen, how Elsa responds and then isolates herself. It's interesting parallels to me.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. And a common theme in some child movies. I just think it's know something bad happens, which I guess is just a good story. And then how someone responds to that something bad happening or hard or, you know, how they kind of manage to do it. And ideally, if it's a Disney movie, they coped well and kind of come out the other side. But we see that with a Grin.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, again, when we talk about attachment, again, it's a term used to talk about the connection between an infant and their early caregiver. Usually it's a parent, but not always. It can be a grandparent. It can be someone at an orphanage. Hopefully it's someone that's a good place to start, is we hope there's someone. Right? Hi, scribbles. So then we think about and we've talked about in a lot of our past episodes, like Harry Potter, you a lot of different ones about the different type styles of attachment. We think about secure attachment versus insecure attachment. And then in that umbrella of insecure attachment, we think about avoidant attachment styles versus anxious avoidant attachment styles versus a reactive type of attachment style, right? So when you have a secure attachment, the child knows and feels secure in knowing that their needs will be met by their caregiver. And this develops over time, like for human babies, when you cry, your mother comes to feed you, to change you, to hold you. As the baby gets older, the child begins to be able to tolerate waiting for mom because they've been able to internalize, like, even if I'm crying, I know she will eventually come to me. It's something called object permanence, where I believe it's around 18 months old, where kids can realize, like, okay, even if I don't see my mom, I know she still exists, and when I need her, I know she will hear me and come to get me, even if it's not immediate. So you develop this secure feeling like your needs will be met. When you have insecure attachment, you don't develop that. You can't count on your needs being met, and you react to that in different ways. If you have an anxious attachment style, you're always kind of like wanting it to be met and not really being able to trust, like, will it be met or not? You're always anxious about it. If you have an anxious avoidant attachment style, you have that anxiety and then you kind of avoid social interactions in adulthood, you might not pursue romantic partnership, you might have a hard time making long term friendships, things like that. If you have a totally avoided attachment style, you don't interact with anyone, and you're just like, I can't trust anyone. And then this reactive attachment style is having a really hard time soothing yourself. So I remember seeing this in some kids when I did inpatient child psychiatry rotations who maybe grew up in I specifically remember one case where the child grew up in an orphanage in Russia or somewhere like that and was adopted by a family who'd also adopted like eight other kids but adopted them at like age nine or something. And the kid was having a really hard time adjusting, and it was just like a lot of emotional dysregulation, really hard time feeling soothed, really hard time trusting that anyone is safe to soothe them. It's really sad to see. And so we think that kids with reactive attachment disorder have a really disturbed internal working model of relationships. It's like the most severe version of an attachment disorder. And so that leads to a lot of interpersonal and behavioral problems later in life. Most of them have early childhood neglect, abuse or both especially in that ages zero to five range. Or early loss, like early tragic loss, which then leads to neglect or things like that where their needs aren't met. And I think it's been connected to I don't know the date off the top of my head, but things in adulthood like substance use disorder, mental health disorders, trouble maintaining jobs like stuff like that. But what's been your experience with it?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Similar, just kind of working. I think it's been some of the saddest cases I've worked with and just some of the ones that I feel like really sit with you and I won't forget. And I think that just speaks to how many painful and terrible things that we see and work with families for. It's like this, just for me, has really taken the cake, I think, because treatment feels really difficult and challenging because so much of it has to do with the caregiver. And the caregiver really should be in their own therapy because it's so difficult, really. You have to almost be like it's almost like an impossible expectation which no one's asking the parent to give or the caregiver to give. But you have to really be kind of coaching constantly. Everything's kind of a goal, everything's even a hug. Like a lot of kids with reactive attachment disorder don't like to be touched. So it's like how can you show important love?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Regulate them. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's just hard. So there's like attachment therapy, play therapy, of course for little ones. There's some residential that they do rad. Sometimes they send them home with a puppy I've seen to develop a bond with something.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, because I was just thinking, as you were saying, that so much of therapy, at least in adults, focuses on the therapeutic alliance which means the connection between the patient and their therapist. And time and time again studies have shown that is the strongest predictor of positive outcomes in therapy is having that connection with your therapist. And for so many patients. If not, I would argue all of them who have attachment struggles, whether they meet criteria for a full fledged attachment disorder or they just have some.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Interpersonal.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Stuff with their parents that they're trying to work through, that gets replicated in the therapeutic relationship. And that can be, like, a great way to work on healing those wounds and learning how to trust other people, at least in the psychodynamic work that I do. And that's going to be so hard with someone with a reactive attachment style because they're going to really struggle to form that alliance with their care with a therapist. And I think that's like the whole goal probably for a really long time in the therapy is just to connect and be a safe place. Right. And similarly if you're adopting a child with this kind of attachment style, I think, but I'm sure we could do a better job that adoption agencies and stuff like help parents learn how to relate to these kiddos and over time but I don't actually know how much support parents get who are adopting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I think that's hard. I guess, even thinking of some of the cases where the belief is that some were from the kind of the international adoptions from places in Eastern Europe where we kind of know historically there seems to be a lot of neglect and then other just like horrific cases of child abuse and neglect here right. Early on adoption. So when we think of the Grinch, the point of kind of bringing up reactive attachment disorders, there's so many things. So people there's like antisocial personality disorder people have kind of talked about with him, depression, trauma, of course.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But it's like I think this was.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Just like a little bit of a unique one. But he does demonstrate some of the criteria. So not liking physical touch, he wants to kind of be on his own, being unhappy or sad, it says, without a clear cause. I think we could take the trauma approach that there's always a clear cause with abuse in the case, it's always coming from somewhere but not really expressing emotions. So having a conscience, like struggling with remorse or guilt and then the detachment, withdrawal, kind of all of that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And in terms of the DSM Five how, they also include some other symptoms that you might see in children with a reactive attachment disorder, which includes things like poor hygiene, not meeting motor milestones, having trouble with eye contact or social interactions, having blank expressions, appearing like unfocused, not responding socially appropriately to an interpersonal interactions, and stuff like that. And kind of all of that makes sense. Right. Because you learn how to groom yourself from your caregiver, right? Like your caregiver brushes your teeth, brushes your hair, gets you dressed before you know how to do that. So if no one's doing that for you, you don't know to do it for yourself. Right. And so I think you could also see how I just think, like, a trauma informed approach is so important because you could see how someone with this attachment style could be misdiagnosed as like ADHD, odd conduct disorder. And sure, I think there might be a proportion of people with this early childhood trauma and attachment style who go on to develop those things, but it might not actually be that. Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's important to emphasize.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: The big years that I feel like that kind of comes out is more which is where the research with reactive attachment disorder is lacking and why it can be a little controversial because there's no long term studies, really about what it turns into. They know a lot from zero to five. But then after it's like, are the kiddos kind of getting a secure attachment, working on it, developing the ability to have close, safe relationships? Or is it kind of taking that other route where it's still not having any relationships and then the behaviors kind of naturally come out of that. It's not like the behaviors first, it's like you're kind of on your own in this big social world.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly right. It's like the former way you described it is like what we see in this movie with the grins who he can develop this secure feeling with. Cindy Lou. Interestingly. A little child. Right? And we always think like children are very pure and kind and so innocent. Right. And as adults, we often say like, gosh, when do we all become know when you're looking at little kids and interestingly, as you were saying that, Portia, I was just thinking like, well, in order to do a long term study, your participants have to keep participating, which in of itself is an attachment. So these people are not going to do that, right, if their attachment isn't healing righteous.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. And I thought his heart growing was to me just like so symbolic of him being and again, it's a movie and it's fast, but his healing and his ability to then connect and he kind of learns that through Cindy Luhu. And then it's safe to kind of try other attachments with his his caregivers. He kind know, reunites with and they put the sweater on him that's like itchy looking.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, but he can tolerate even that. Know, it is like such a beautiful like for therapy in some, right? Like, I guess if Cindy Lou and the Grinch are engaging in play therapy, I guess if you're following my drift, that if you can develop that connection and it can feel safe and if someone in your life can see past all the acting out behaviors, stealing the present, stealing the you know, stealing all the lights. All this stuff the Grinch is doing in anger, which is sort of his way of projecting out all the pain he's holding inside from all his early life experience. If there's someone in your life again, hopefully an adult, not a child, hopefully someone will train someone in your life who can hold on to and keep mirroring back to you that you do have goodness inside. You are worthy of love. I see you for who you are despite all your acting out. I'm not going to leave you, baby. Is that powerful? And don't you wish everyone could have a person like that in your life? I'm just thinking of all the teenage boys I've seen in my work throughout the years who are just really acting out. And you're just like, god, you just need someone to love you. And it's tough. And these behaviors make it hard to do that consistently. Right. But you really need it because they.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Are so naturally kind of pushing others away. But it's like the core purpose of that is to protect. So it's like while others are kind of getting hurt or like, oh, yeah, he's a jerk. I can't believe he did that. It's like obviously some peers, I'm not asking them to have the capacity to do that, but like the caregivers or the adults around or the teachers or the supports, the therapist, it's like, well, why is this happening and how does it benefit him? But he also does have a dog. So now, thinking about animals, was that a tiny little way that even while he was by himself, he was able to develop an attachment with an animal, and that made it easier for them with Cindy Lou, who's also like a little bit, in a way, children are like animals. If you could go with me giving you that positive, unconditional, like, just the consistency. I feel like children in a way, are predictable in that way with just sometimes emotions. And so maybe that was the little crack that opened, allowed Cindy to kind of open the door.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think that does speak to why could his heart grow? Why could he start to develop this? I think because there's some ability there for that. Right? He must have had some, however small thread of attachment that he knew it was possible there was something in there, whether it was those two sisters that he learned to trust, whether there was something there that led him to getting the dog. Right. And I mean, I've seen so many adult patients with a lot of attachment issues or trauma who really rely on their pets, right? And then there's all of the emotional support animals, which can be exploited, but when it's appropriate, it makes so much sense, right. Even if it's hard to attach to humans, because humans can be cruel sometimes animals, you can develop that attachment. So I think it does speak to the Grinch's ability to develop an attachment. However, it takes time, and it has to be in the right situation. But I think if he had been living alone like a hermit, with no dog, with no desire, then a there wouldn't be a story, there wouldn't be a movie. Right. He just wouldn't go to the Hubilation. He would just kind of be a hermit. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I had a question for you, similarly, and I'm curious to hear your perspective about medication. So when I worked with some kiddos who had the diagnosis of reactive attachment disorder, it felt like a similar medication mix for borderline, right? Like an antianxiety, like a risperadol sometimes with respiradone, with aggression. So what else do you see? Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, again, I'm not a trained child and adolescent psychiatrist, but I would agree with you. In my brief training in child and adolescent psychiatry, during my adult residency training, it was hard because for a while I thought about pursuing child and adolescent, but then I didn't. And one big reason was because I felt like a lot of times as a psychiatrist, it was expected that you would medicate symptoms that at least like on the inpatient settings. I kept thinking, like, they're acting this way because of their home life or because of their parents or they're behaving and totally medicine isn't going to fix that. I would always say to my supervisors, I wish I could just prescribe them new parents. I just want to give them a loving parent. And Dr. Q, one of my favorite teachers of all time, when she would be interviewing kiddos and stuff, who were coming on the unit, she would get a good sense of what's their relationship like with their parents and then also ask them questions like, what do you go to when you're sad? Or who can you talk to when you have a question? Trying to gauge, like, is there someone else in your life? A coach, a teacher? Is there someone? And if there was someone kind of like the Grinch, there must been someone that you hope you can foster that relationship. But I would agree with you. I feel like in terms of the medication side, I think you often end up medicating certain symptoms in hopes it'll help keep the kid in, quote, unquote, behavioral control. And that always just rubs me the wrong way, because it feels like we're not treating the deeper thing or, like, the root cause, but then it's also like, well, how do you get to the root cause if the behaviors are interfering? It's really complicated, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But yeah, I would agree with you. I think we see. And sometimes that's appropriate. Sometimes when you have patients with something like borderline personality disorder, it is helpful for them to be on a couple of different medications to help treat the different symptoms so that they're in a place of emotional stability, where they can make use of DBT or play therapy if it's a kid. It's just, I think, really hard with kids when the medications we're using can have so many side effects. So it's a really nuanced decision.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. And I think it just makes it hard. And I think we both have said ten times today, but attachment is so tricky, and I think the most vulnerable people are kiddos, and it just can be heartbreaking. When basic needs aren't met, there's abuse, and then, of course, that they're still not in a good place, and I don't know. But another totally agree, kind of just quick note about the Grinch is I thought it was funny someone it made me think of, like, what is it? Sad? Seasonal effective seasonal affective disorder. And it's like, it's always winter there. It's always holiday stress, right? So it's like, it's this perpetual can you imagine?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, on the one hand, it's like, wow, it might be nice to live in Christmas time all the time, but then on the other, it's like such that's so much pressure, like, such high expectations. And we see that with the competition.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Between the neighbors, with how many lights.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You get on your house. And then there's even the mayor's wife, who has, like, a Barbie body, right, who's using that light gun to get off. That's why loved this version of the movie, because it. Just speaks to that stress in such a comical way.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And it's also for adults with right seeing, like, doing the gun, it's shooting in that little bit, like, sensual way. It was funny. Yeah, it's funny. And it's definitely a part of the must watch list for me, at least for the holidays. Yeah, I love it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I love this version. I just love Jim Carrey. Like, who doesn't? Yeah, but he's such a good Grinch. It's so good.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. Ten out of ten recommend. So thank you for listening today. I think we're going to wrap up.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We'd love to hear your thoughts about this classic movie. What do you think about the Grinch's attachment style?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, so definitely let us know. You can reach us on many social media accounts like TikTok or Instagram at Analyze Scripts podcast. You can also leave a comment if you're watching this on YouTube. Or you can always email us at Analyze scriptspodcast at gmail. We'd like to hear your take. This was a little bit of new info.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, let's talk about the giveaway. I believe this episode is going to come out before the giveaway. Let me double check.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Monday. I think it won't that Monday. Well, sorry.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, it could well, can we cut this out?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You should check our instagram. And if there is the still giveaway going on, we're giving away $200 of an Amazon gift card as a way to say thank you to our listeners. If it's not, we'll probably maybe do it again at some point.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe next do it again another time.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Make sure you're following us. You could see the opportunity to give us some feedback, and we'll definitely be taking some of the suggestions that have.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Been on that post.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And again, please leave us some. We'd love to hear your feedback, but thanks for joining us.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We're having a great time and we love all the interaction and catch us next week's. For our last episode of 2023, we will be covering Christmas Vacation, which is just such a classic. It's one of Portia's favorites. It will be released on Christmas Day. So if you need a little mental health break from all the festivities and you want to give it a listen, that's great.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, no, good note. All right, take care, guys.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are joined by our friend Dr. Sulman Mirza (@thekicksshrink) to discuss his favorite holiday movie "Gremlins." This campy 1984 thriller comedy horror follows the Peltzer family as they unwittingly adopt (?steal) the mogwai Gizmo at Christmastime. As a father and child & adolescent psychiatrist, Dr. Mirza shares his interpretation of this movie as an allegory for parenthood. We also explore themes of trauma, gender roles, and consumerism. We hope you enjoy!

WATCH THIS EPISODE NOW ON YOUTUBE!

https://www.instagram.com/analyzescriptspodcast/

TikTok

Website

[00:10] Unknown Speaker: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends. There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts. And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM five, and enjoy. Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. We are really excited to be joined again by one of our favorite guests. Don't tell the others. Maybe Solman Mirza, who is a triple board certified physician in Adult psychiatry and child and adolescent psychiatry and addiction medicine. Just in case you didn't catch our last episode that he was on, I'll share a little bit about him. He works with the largest healthcare system in North Virginia as the staff psychiatrist for an adolescent partial hospitalization program. He sees children and adolescents as outpatients there as well. He also has his own private practice, Luku Psych, where he sees adult outpatient patients with a focus on ADHD, autism, substance abuse issues, as well as being Blue Duns County's first Loudon, I was like, we're in the Northeast here. The first certified provider of bravado, the FDA approved intranasal eschetamine product for treatment resistant major depressive disorder. Dr. Mirza is also a certified provider in the National Basketball Players Association Mental Health and Wellness Program for the Washington Wizards. Begrudgingly realizing that the only way he was going to make it into the NBA was by being a doctor, which is super cool. That's a tough realization. Way to spin, know, way to find positive reframe. Yeah. And then, in addition to his clinical work, Dr. Mirza has a growing social media presence, which is how we found hiM. You can find him at the Kicks shrink with a following over 85,000 across TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube, with an accompanying podcast as well, where he creates educational, entertaining videos and content with the goal of breaking down mental health stigma, combating mental health misinformation, which we also agree is really important, and rehabilitating the often negative image of psychiatry and psychiatrist. Often in movies, which we see really frequently. Yes. So he interviews leaders in the field, all while hoping to make viewers laugh and learn something, but also really like sneakers. Yeah. I'm curious, are you hoping for a special sneaker gift this holiday season. Well, it was my birthday recently, and I know. Birthday. Thank you. It's been like a month. Plus now it kind of flew under the radar because I was, like, bugging my wife. I was like, where's my gift? Where's my gift? And she's been like, along the way. She's like, sending me Instagram posts of this Pakistani artist who does custom artwork on Air Force ones. So she's like, oh, if you were to get a shoe like this, what kind of artwork would you like on there? Theoretically. Theoretically. And I was like, I'm still wondering because I haven't gotten it yet. And now it's like six weeks, seven weeks later, I'm like, what's happening here? So it's going to be like some Pakistani truck art on these Air Force Ones. I'm kind of excited for that. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, I love that. Do you have a big sneaker collection? Oh, Porsche. Do I have a sneaker closet? I have a sneaker wall in my basement. It's like over 100 pairs of sneakers. So people come down to the basement and they're like, whoa. And I have to tell them. I was like, I have some more hidden away in another closet, so don't worry. Do you actually wear them or are they for display only? No, I try to rotate through them. I try to spice up and wear a different pair every day or so. Cool. But I have my go to. I go to on a regular. And I bet you have a way of keeping them really clean. Yeah. So I've got the cases for them. So they come in the clearish display cases. Like a Beanie baby. Yeah. Container store has these boxes, essentially. So they sell them by the six pack, essentially, of them. So you end up spending just as much on the storage as you do on sometimes the shoes. I love the container store. Yeah. It's trouble. They have containers for everything, every shape, every size. Every now and then I go through these fantasies of just organizing my whole house. Right. Like a place for everything. And I have this fantasy, like, the rest of my family members will just do it and they won't. Of course, they won't make a good point about the Beanie babies, but I think we also used to store, like, furbies in those glass containers as well, which leads us to our movie today. Yes. So we're talking about the 1984 movie Gremlins, which was a smash hit at the time. It still is. It's like one of those classic movies, but totally. Every time I watch this. I think about furbies, which came after Gremlins, but I always wonder, how did that fly? Because they look identical. And I think they actually even came out with a gizmo. Furby at one point. That's, like, super hard to get now. Yeah, they were creepy. Esop. Furby's were creepy. Yeah. One of my friend's fathers, when we were eight years old, got really annoyed at her furbies for not being turned off, and he threw them all over the balcony. Down. Obviously, that was probably. He maybe had something else going on issue. But I remember she was devastated. So what I think about when I think of Furby's hope she therapy today, but I don't know. Talk about a core memory. Yeah, I'll say there's some issues going on there. I think that explains plenty of stuff there, but. So, Sullivan, give us your hot take on this movie. Why do you like it so much? What made you want to revisit it? Yeah, so Gremlins is one of my know, I remember way back when we had. When I was growing up, me and my sister in upstate New York and Summertime, our parents weren't big on doing stuff, so they're like, you guys just stay in the. Just, like, do nothing. They're like, here's some math books and some books to read and stuff. And then we'd be like, me and my sister hanging out. Be like, let's just watch some movies. And so we'd go through the whole VHS tapes that we had at home, and my dad would always tape stuff off the TV, so we'd have to fast forward through the commercials and blah, blah, blah. For the people who remember VHS tapes. Do you remember the rewinding machine? Did you have one of those, or did you do it by. We just rewounded in the VCR itself. So after a movie, you have to be like, all right, guys, let's wait around for another five or ten minutes to rewind this movie. But Gremlins Two was always in the rotation. Gremlins Two, which is, like, the worst of the movies. It's very cheesy and crappy, but I always kind of liked it for whatever reason, that was our rotation. Mighty Ducks Two was in our rotation, and Star wars was in our rotation. Sequel, not the original. It was very bizarre. But for whatever reason, that was the one that was there. And then I remember watching Gremlins one. I loved Gremlins Two, but I remember watching Gremlins one later and being like, oh, my God, this is so much better. And fantastic. And it's amazing. And then I watched it again a few years ago, and I was like, oh, I have a different appreciation for it now. And then I watched it again over the weekend. I was like, oh, another different appreciation and interpretation viewing on it. The other thing, too with it is when people always ask me, like, oh, what's your favorite Christmas movie? It's always, like, the time of year. We're getting there. Right? I don't celebrate Christmas. I'm a Muslim. We don't celebrate it. Kind of growing up. So for me, it was always like, my favorite Christmas movies are Gremlins, Die Hard, and Home Alone. Right? Yeah, Home Alone is universal. We all like that one. But that was, like, my thing. So I always appreciate it as, like, a non Christmas Christmas mOvie, I guess. Yeah. And there's a lot of controversy about diehard, whether it's a Christmas movie or not. I hear this in the ether. It's a Christmas movie. Yeah. I think we can agree. So what do you love about this movie? I liked it because one of the things I always like about movies is the practical effects. So this is, like I said, 1984, and I was two years old at the time, so I don't remember when it came out, obviously. But I love the class, the practical effects of it. I love that you created these creatures who are iconic. Right. What is it, 30 years, 40 years later? 40 years later. Oh, my God. 40 years later that we're still talking about them, that people are still clamoring for, like, a Gremlins three. I think there was just, like, a cartoon series on Max that just came out in the last year. Gizmo was super cute. Oh, my God. The cutest picture that's out there. I guess there's probably a lot of Shih tzus out there named Gizmo. Yeah, my cousin had one, and now I get it. Yeah. So that was, like, the appeal of it, and it was a great kind of send up of a lot of these classic kind of Christmas stories, too. Like a very obvious kind of send up of, like, it's a wonderful life. And just like, that dark kind of humor that's in there that was always appealing to me. And then more recently, I think we're talking before the idea of, oh, this is kind of like a metaphor for parenting and getting into adulthood and all that stuff. So say more about that. Yeah. When I watched it again over the weekend, and I watched it with my eldest son, my only son, but I have four kids. Right. So this was like, let me just watch it again. I always kind of originally thought of it as just a basic kind of horror movie, but like a comedy horror movie. Not a comedy horror, but a horror comedy, right? Yeah. And then nothing more. I thought it was a very superficial, pop, kind of culturish movie. And there it is. When I watched it again with the kid, right. I was like, oh, this is hitting different because it's a story of parenting. IT's a story of the ideas of what we're supposed to do, the rules that are there. And then what happens when you break the rules of parenting? You have the old grandfather in the beginning, and it's very kind of straightforward as a grandfather who's very wise. And these are the rules of here's your new baby, right? Here's Gizmo being the baby and a child. And he's like, this is what you're supposed to do. Again, the three rules are like, don't feed them after midnight. Don't get them wet and keep them out of sunlight or else they'll die, right? And we see this when you become a new parent, right, and have gone through it the four times, it's like everyone kind of telling you this is what you're supposed to do. And your own parents, right? The grandparents of the child telling you, these are the rules. These are the things you're supposed to do. Funny enough, sorry to interrupt, but our rules are the direct opposite. Feed them whenever they want, get them outside, except your parents maybe, who say, stay inside all summer and make sure you bathe them. Yeah. So it was interesting from that point of view. I hadn't thought about that before. And then as kind of this journey through, like, we're going to be cute and cuddly. Gizmo is fantastic. And we love him. And he sings these songs. He's like cooing and it's, know, he's so super nice. He's like, better than the dog, right? We think he's going to replace the dog, right? So it's like a new baby, a new child in the household. And then we get into adolescence, right? We get into adolescence, or even the terrible twos or whatever you want to say, where it's like, now we've broken the rules and now they are these gremlins, these terrible monsters who are just destroying everything. So that was what really struck me upon this more recent viewing. It was like, oh, this is what it's kind of like an allegory for. Wow, I never thought of that, but I can totally see that now. And I'm just thinking now about this scene where the mom, Lynn, I think was her name, is trapped in the house with the Gremlins who are trying to hurt her, and she kills them one by one in these very graphic, violent ways. And as she keeps doing it, you see this pleasure in her face that she's doing that. And I thought that was a really interesting depiction of her finding this sadistic joy in killing these creatures, given her role as the stay at home mom who doesn't really have a say and has all this husband who's off all the time with these wild inventions that don't really work. Terrible invention. And she's just like, yeah. She's just, like, stuck at home alone. I don't know. I thought that was interesting. Yeah. And it's interesting, too, because Billy, the main character, he's portrayed as, like, the perfect all American boy. He's, like, living at home, being there, works at a bank, has a dog, and he's hanging out with Mom. They're getting ready for the holidays together, super supportive, while dad is again, out being a terrible inventor on these road trips and absent all the time. And then again, all this stuff happens to him and the world. Kingston Falls gets burned to the ground. That felt like a little neglectful, just like with his even dismissing of the instructions when he kind of, I guess, stole his totally, and then laughing about it, like, oh, well, I think you got to do these three things. I was like, wow, you remembered them. I was impressed that he could then tell his son how to kind of do it. But then if you think about it in kind of, like, not the context of a movie, it's like you've got this bizarre creature that is not a dog or a kitten or a bird or a toy or a toy, and you're like, leaving it with your son, giving these random instructions that seem ridiculous, and then you're going off again, and it's like, well, right. Any danger? Oh, I probably shouldn't do this. Oh, this is a bad idea. It's like, there's none of that. I don't know. I think we see that, though, and I think stereotypically we see that with the busy working dad, who's not really physically or emotionally present, but will shower the children with gifts as sort of like a token of their affection, but then isn't even around to appreciate the children with the gift. And I think even beyond that, I would imagine a lot of parents feel that this time of year, at the holidays, there's just so much pressure and chaos and busyness. And it's like, does anyone sit in front of the tree and just be together? Right? It was always the competition of who's going to get the biggest gift, the best, and, like. And then even then, when he gives the gift or he gives Gizmo to his son, to Billy, he's like, I need to find a way that I can make more of these. And this is going to replace the dog. This is going to be like the pet of America. And he uses his last name, right? The Pendleton or something, like pet. And it's just like, he's so. I don't know. It's just like, that's really only where his brain goes. It's like if we think about just priorities, it's like his priority is to almost a little bit of self importance versus, like, financial gain. Like, he wants to be celebrated. He wants to be known. He wants to be important. Famous. Famous. I was just going to say. And even within the home, right? So all the stuff is in the home, and the orange juice maker doesn't work, the coffee machine doesn't work, and the phone thing doesn't work. And it's funny in a way, it was kind of mean and self granditizing. Like you're saying, it's like, even when the mom picks up the phone and talks on the regular phone and he's asking, he's like, well, you're using the device, right? You're using the thing, right? You can tell that he's always still just like, even if this terrible thing, nothing works. He's like, we're still going to use it. And she goes along with it. She totally plays into it. And I think that scene you're talking about in particular, we don't even hear him say that dialogue. We just hear her response where she's making an excuse like, oh, no. I was out on the porch. I couldn't get to it or something. But we saw her try to use it, and it failed three times. And that is so interesting to me that everyone has this almost, like, shared delusion. It's too strong of a word. But we're all, like, boosting his ego up and his image up, even though none of his stuff works. And I can't imagine it's lucrative. I kept wondering, how do they afford their travel? It's upstate New York, so upstate New York is, like, extremely cheap. So there you go. Yeah. So then we meet. We saw the little boy who's, like, Billy's friend, who's in my favorite movie ever, Goonies or the Goonies, which I was just like a pleasant surprise of. So did more movie question, did the same director directed both of those, right? Or there's the same something that brought him over. I know, like Spielberg, Steven Spielberg produced both of them. At least I think I know he was a producer for Gremlins. I can't remember if he did Goonies. I think I want to say he did Goonies, but he was a producer at least for it probably. Yeah. Because he really liked. And then Goonies is where he kind of like blew up on. Yeah. So you had shared a little fun fact also before we got rolling, which I think the viewers would love to hear about the rating of the. Oh, yeah. So, so Gremlins was rated PG and I was kind of like doing a little reading on it and I saw that there was so many families that were going into the movie expecting cute Little Gizmo. I think the advertisement was around Gizmo and how this was going to be like a Christmas movie and a family movie. And finally it came out in the middle of summer. I think it was like that. And Ghostbusters came out on the same weekend and it held its own. This was like one of the top three or four grossing movies of the year with Ghostbusters and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, which we'll get to in a like. So this came out and then everyone was like, oh, this is going to be a fun little movie, family movie, right? Oh, my. This devolves into this terrible mess of horror and gore and violence. And families were like walking out because they're like, oh, my, can'T. My children can't see this movie. So that was happening. Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom came out that year, I think, as well. It was rated PG as well. And of course, we all remember Indiana Jones's Temple of Doom with Galima and the guy ripping everyone's heart out and eating monkey brains and all that fun stuff. And we're like, oh, my God, what is going on? So those movies, it led to the formation of the PG 13 rating because people were like, we need to find something that's in between PG and R to kind of have this there. So I think it was important historically from that point of view as well, too. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's definitely not like a PG film. And I think that I saw online that they toned it down a lot, actually. Mom was supposed to die and there was supposed to be a shot of her head rolling down the stairs and all of this other stuff. And they were like, no, it needs to be more marketable for a wider audience. And so thinking of it even then, in that context, it's like it was a horror movie that they kind of made more globally. It will just be seen. But that's really interesting. The things you learn on. She kind of, for me, came out of nowhere with just, like, this really tragic story that I was not expecting at all. Yeah, Phoebe Cates again, who, for a lot of guys in the 80s, turned them from boys into men. But, yeah, she has these two scenes, right? Like, these two major scenes in the movie, the one where they're walking and then the other part where they're randomly just spills her beans about her father and how had this tragic thing happen to him and why she hates Christmas, which I thought was really interesting from a point of view from us in the mental health field, right? Like, when we're with patients, clients, and when we're around this time of year and we're like, well, Merry Christmas, or have a good Thanksgiving, or have happy holidays, and we say it very cheerfully and we assume that everybody loves the holidays and this really great for them. It's like the best time of the year. And it's like, not always. It can be really painful time of year for enough people, right? They're very difficult times of year. Sometimes there's a lot of family trauma that's there, and then they're forced to be around other family members or they're potential abusers or again, there's other memories associated with the holidays. And so when we thrust upon our idea of, like, it's the holidays and you should be happy and just get the Christmas spirit, we can't do that. So it was something that I've changed over the course of my years has been like, well, when I asked people, I was like, well, how are the holidays for you? How is this time of year for you? So you have an idea of how to approach it or how to kind of sign off or even just talk and process about it with them. That's a really helpful point. Even just like, if you're not in the mental health field, like, asking, what are your plans? And I think even in that way, you can get a little bit of an, oh, well, my plans are you're like, okay, you seem a little bit more happy. You're like, oh, I'm not really sure even in the little kind of subtext can give you a clue. But, man, I mean, there's a lot of substance use this time of year. It's really hard, I think, especially with all the family gatherings. I think we all assume holidays are a time for family gatherings, but a lot of people don't have big families or any family to go to, so there's a lot of loneliness or they might be housebound. And there is a lot of substance use this time of year. Yeah, we see so much drinking just because it's, like, normalized or encouraged a lot of times, too. So we have a lot of issues with that. I was working with a patient recently who we've been working with her on their alcohol use and getting it down, and they've kind of reintroduced drinking a bit, right. And I was like, okay, cool, we'll keep an eye on it. And it becomes the whole thing of like, well, it becomes special occasions, right. On special occasions, we'll have a drink or two, and then it's like, we're getting to holidays time, right, where it's a lot of special occasions. And then does every little thing, every family gathering become, like a special occasion? And then I was going to start that. I tell them, I was like, let's keep an eye on how often those special occasions are occurring. And if it's like, is Friday becoming a special occasion? Is coming home from work a special occasion? Now, let's just keep an eye on that as a whole. And I think the same could translate to food as well, either. Overeating, undereating people's relationships with their bodies, with other people's bodies, especially if you grow up in a family with sort of that toxic food culture. Same thing. I think we see a lot of this stuff around the holidays. Eating disorders, too. Right? So whenever I have patients, clients with eating disorders, again, it's like Thanksgiving is seen as like, oh, my God. It's like this culture of celebrating food in Turkey and all that fun stuff. Overeating. Yeah. It's like gluttony is very much like, this is what the plan is. We're going to eat too much and we're going to pass out and go to sleep. And the comments of, like, the normalization of the comments of like, oh, well, I'm going to skip all of the meals except Thanksgiving dinner. And it's like, okay, well, then of course you're going to overeat. And it's encouraging people to eat as you normally would throughout the day. And it's a way to help you keep a little bit more regulated. But it's so hard. It's a hard time of year. But that scene with Billy and Kate walking home in the snow, where she know. Starting to talk about her negative feelings about the Christmas time of year. And she mentions, like, well, it's the know. It's the time of year where there's the most suicides. I thought it was important to point out that that's actually not true. I think that's a common misconception and it makes sense. Right. For all the reasons we're talking about, all the stress and everything. But the CDC actually consistently reports that the time of year with the highest suicide rate is between April and June, which a lot of people wouldn't think. I think we often think it's like between Thanksgiving and Valentine's Day. But there's some thought that perhaps there is something to that. Increased light exposure, people getting outside. I think there's some thought that there might be a correlation with the increase in manic episodes that happen during the springtime. Again, more impulsive, taking more risks and things like that. But the suicide rate is actually the lowest in the winter. So I wanted to hear both of your thoughts about that and your thoughts about this movie sort of portraying it incorrectly. Portia, you can go. I mean, I can see why it's common. I think we think of the winter, we think of seasonal depression, and especially in certain parts of the country, like the Northeast, where there's more seasons, it's like dark. We have less of that vitamin D. We can be more isolated, which I think, again, is why we might think that there'd be more death by suicide. But I think what's interesting, too, is there's also, and I don't know if this is related at all, but I'm just thinking of the crime rates, how they kind of spike in the summer, too, and it's just like the heat or you're out more, you're exposed more to things, maybe to more like. I don't know if that has anything to do with it. But that's just what that made me think of. I was a little bit surprised when you were saying that, that it's higher in April, June versus the winter. I think I was kind of like before I was kind of working under that assumption that it was also higher during the winter, not necessarily just based on gremlins. Maybe it's a left, maybe a lefty mark, who knows? But yeah, there's that aspect. I think it is just interesting that when we do kind of, like, research and stuff and see what are the statistics, what are the kind of evidence of when these things happen. When I work with kiddos, I reference a lot of the work of Dr. Tyler Black a lot, who's done so much kind of research into suicides and suicide rates with children adolescents. The highest suicide rates are always Monday through Friday and then highest during the school months. And they always take a dip during the school years. And I think the takeaway is that school drives a lot of suicides for children and adolescents. So it's that aspect, that other part of it that I always kind of bring up and say, so it was interesting. I think I hear that from a lot of. Yeah, and I hear that from a lot of my friends who are child and adolescent psychiatrists, that the summers tend to be a little slower, and then it's, like, quiet. As soon as you get to that first parent teacher conference, it's know everyone wants to come. And like, Portia, you were saying in the, like, I do PHP partial hospitalization work in the summer, it's, like, barren, right? I'm always like, everyone's like, they're encouraging you take your vacations during the summer. You want to take extra week off, take an extra week off. It's really quiet. And then end of September, October starts, and it's like, PHP is full. It is full until June. Yeah, that's really interesting. And gosh, what a commentary on how stressed kids are by, like, that sucks. Yeah. So when people discuss, it's funny because you get into the debates about people who will be like, oh, it's social media, and it's like, Instagram's fault and TikTok's fault that kids are suicidal. We didn't have this when we were growing up. I was like, yes, of course you did. But nobody talked about it. But I was like, you can access TikTok and Instagram during the summer, right? You have plenty of that stuff during the summertime. Might even access it. You can have it on the weekends, right? You can get it on Saturdays and Sundays, right? But data is dramatic. It is like, significant differences that occur between school days and school months. That's really interesting. It's sad. That makes me sad. I think it's hard for scheduling. This is just like a me problem, not a patient problem, but it's like, we'll meal you if you're in a group dynamic drops so drastically in the summer. And same with, I have all of these openings, but I'll see someone monthly. And then all of a sudden, September hits, and it's like, we need every week, and it also needs to be after soccer, and it also needs to be before we have tutoring. And it's just like. But then if you think about it, it's like, okay, now the kids are in school all day, and then they have an after school activity, and then they have sat prep, and then they have this, and it's like, well, maybe that's why they're stressed. They're kind of being pulled in a million directions and maybe feeling like a failure, and it's just poor case. One of the greatest interventions I do is tell people to do less. I was like, is there one thing that you can drop? And they're like, oh, my God. It made a huge difference. Oh, 100%. And it is like, I think I try to keep that in mind as a parent myself, not to over schedule, but it's hard because there's so many activities going on, and you don't want your kid to feel left out or you want them to participate. But then it's kind of just like the holiday season, too. It just gets to be too much. We all just need to take a deep breath and sit down. You need to chill. Yeah, yeah. As Taylor Swift says, you need to calm down. So talk about trauma with finding her dad deceased for days with a smell, and he was dressed as Santa. I mean, what a obvious reason to not like Christmas anymore. Yeah. So that was like this terrible story that, again, comes out of nowhere. That was one of the kind of the criticisms of the movie as well. I could imagine all the families going to see the movie and then being like, oh, my God, dad is trying to be Santa Claus and come down the chimney. And he gets stuck and he dies. And then they start being like, oh, what is this weird smell? And then doom. There's dad in the chimney, and that is a smell. I don't know if you ever rotated through forensic pathology. Solman I did, because I'm just a morbidly curious person, I guess. THat's a distinct smell. All the true crime shows say that. And it is true. There is the smell of death that's there. That is not fun for anybody. But also, why wasn't anyone looking for him for days? I can't remember. I think they were, but everyone was like, they just, oh, they were. I mean, nobody could find them, right? Because they're like the work, I think they called like work, and they're like, he's not here or something. Okay, that makes sense, actually. No one would think to look in the chimney. No one thinks to look in the chimney. Hot take. If you can't find someone, check your chimney. I think maybe this is why chimneys are much narrower now. But no, this is a very obvious trauma. And for some reason, I don't know why, but I knew that there was a twist of something that happened with dad. And for some reason I was thinking that it was like an assault or abuse that occurred to her. And then it was like, oh, yeah, it was the dad gets stuck in the chimney. So I remember there was like a trauma that occurred. The thing that we're talking about before is that there is these moments that occur, right? These associations that occur again, we see so many times with sexual abuse, incest kind of situations that occur, like it's the creepy uncle or the aunt or somebody like that. And again, what are you supposed to do in family kind of gatherings when they get invited and whether parents may know or not know, they still. Or they kind of decide to not do anything about it or let's not talk about it. I think a really good kind of reference for this was that Indian movie that came out many years ago. I can't remember the name of it. It was like some wedding. Monsoon wedding. I think it was right. And I don't remember. I don't know if you guys watch or not, but that was kind of the premise is like, the uncle had assaulted one of the girls as a child and everyone was like, we're not going to talk about it. Let's just leave it alone. And then she couldn't take it anymore and then had a big fit at him. And the family members are like, why are you yelling at him? Why are you still talking about this? It happened like, 2030 years ago. Why are you bringing this up right now? But this happens all the time. All the time, all the time. So many times, right? And then people are just supposed to just pretend like nothing happened, right? Keep the peace, just go along with it. And it's like, gosh, not only was this person traumatized and violated in such a major way, now we're all perpetuating it by telling them, don't talk about it, just suppress. We're retraumatizing them. It's so awful. So then when bringing it back to Phoebe, Kate's character, we see every year, like, oh, Christmas stories and families and Christmas cards and dad being sit on Santa's lap. And it's this. All the stuff that goes along with Christmas time. And how else can you. Well, like, where you're supposed to be with your family and Santa's this wonderful character and he's popping down chimneys and dropping off presents with kids and it's like oh my God. Can you also like Santa? If you really think about it, it's kind of creepy. Like this old man, stranger, you don't know, like you sit on his lap and ask for things and then he just comes in your house. Are you good? Are you noding your. When you're. Sees you when you're sleeping? It's like kind of creepy. Very creepy. Kind of creepy. I think too, in my work as a reproductive psychiatrist, I see a lot of grief around the holidays, at least in our American culture. From a know religious standpoint, with all the focus on the baby, baby Jesus and family and growing your family and gatherings, there's a lot of grief for women who've lost children or want one so badly. And I think that applies to whatever your family system or structure is. If there's been tragic loss or even untragic loss, like, loss is hard no matter what, but especially this time of year, the first holiday after someone died, or now we're doing things differently. It's just hard. And I don't think we leave enough space in all of our busy schedules to just allow ourselves to feel that or to even kind of accept that other people have different experiences. Right. Still get into the Christmas spirit and still have your pumpkin spice lattes and continue on. Yeah, like, go sing a carol. It'll make everything better. Yeah. You see Billy do that a little bit until she shares her story. But she's really kind of like pushing her to be like, well, what do you mean? And it's the best time of the year. And why that's weird. And then she kind of like, whether she wanted to or not, I would imagine, felt inclined to be like, well, this is why. And I think a lot of people also, it's like when they are being pushed or encouraged kind of forcefully to get into the spirit, it does really feel kind of like non consensual. And oftentimes you're kind of forced to share something that maybe you don't want to or you're not ready to. Or some people like, again, I do sadly see the same example you mentioned about there being some sort of abuse or violation in the past and having to see that extended family member. And often it might be this type of situation coming up that finally leads to someone disclosing it for the first time to, like, parents and how unfortunately, some parents might be upset. Like, why'd you have to tell me now you've ruined Christmas. Ruining the holiday. Christmas. Yeah, exactly. It's like, holy moly, come on. Yeah, I do think, though it is possible, even when the holidays are hard, it is possible that maybe they won't always be hard. And I like to encourage my patients when they're at that point to. Also, something I use is thinking about, like grief and love can be like two sides of the same coin. And sometimes when you've experienced a lot of loss or grief around a certain time of year, a certain anniversary, whether it's holidays or otherwise, when you can make room to sit with it and accept it and let yourself just process it, how you process it, you can also open yourself up to feeling that love for that person or for other people, or you can appreciate life in a different way sometimes if you can just allow yourself to hold on to all of those complicated, big emotions. Yeah. Also with trauma. Talking about that a little bit, too. There is also the community trauma that occurs, right. Which we don't get much of in the first movie, but it gets referenced to a little bit in the second. Gremlins or Gremlins, too. So you have this small, idyllic postcard town that gets totally destroyed and ravaged by the Gremlins. Right. Theater gets blown up, everything else, people get killed and all these things occur. And you see what happens to a little bit in the second movie. Not too much, right. They moved to New York City. Right? That's where the main setting is. And they're like, we had to get away from there. We had to get out of that place. Right. We had to run away from there. And it is that aspect. We have to remember that communities, places we live are like people as well. They can have a trauma occur to them that doesn't go away. I think we see it with things like New York City and 911. Right. That's, again, we never forget kind of thing. Right. That's never going to be forgotten. So when tragedies occur to areas, that's a thing that we have to kind of remember. And collectively, society wise, community wise, have to remember, too. It makes me think of towns who experience school shootings. I was just thinking like, sandy hook holiday time or like. And it's like there's so many families with a huge loss and what do the holidays look like? And that almost like too, just like survivors guilt, like, your kid is alive and it's very complicated. And I think you're right. That community aspect is totally not to be forgotten either. So I was thinking that either of you two could kind of talk a little bit about delusions or hallucinations with just like we see that scene where Billy's at the police station and telling them that this is going to happen, all these terrible things. And he shows them Gizmo like, he's super cute and they don't believe him because it Sounds. Right. Like, not true. Unbelievable. Yeah. So what is a delusion? If a patient told you this, what might you ask them? What are some other questions or assessment tools that you could use? Yeah. So delusion is a fixed false belief. Right. That's kind of the boilerplate definition of it. So fixed in regards to no matter what you do, no matter what you say, there's no way that you can change that person's mind. And then false is that it's obviously false. It's not true. And these are, I do mostly child adolescent work, but I have some adults and I have, I would say, like, one patient, I would say that has delusional disorder. And there are some of, like, I want to say, the hardest but most challenging kind of patients to work with. I would agree. Again, it's fixed. Right. That belief is not going to go away. And there's a recent kind of discussion on Twitter that was coming up about how do you approach a delusional patient? And there was this old school of thought, I want to say maybe where you kind of challenge it. And then I think that really has fallen away to be like, you kind of go along with it. You say, like, okay. And then we try not to put too much stock in it into that fixed false belief. Right. Like, you don't want to go along with it too much. Okay, well, this is a thought. Let's kind of see what else is going on or how else we can help out and try not to challenge it or fight it either, or kind of convince the other person that, no, this is wrong. So that's like, what's it called, the aspect or definition of what a delusion would be, bringing it to the movie. And it's important to keep it in the cultural context. We saw this with the movie side effects, that there was a man who identified as Haitian who was in the ER, who I guess this was more of a hallucination, but thought he saw a deceased relative and they were like, oh, he's got to be hospitalized. And then it's like, oh, no, actually in that culture, that's accepted. So it's important to have that framework, and that's hard because I don't understand every single culture in the world. Right. So if I'm in the New York City er, it's a lot. So it's kind of that something that's going to be totally bizarre ish. And then there's that, like your family, that people doesn't believe. People around them are less like, no, this is new and this is different, and this is not okay. This is not normalish. So that's what a delusion is from the movie point of view, kind of bringing it back to the parenting. There's again, like this delusion where people around when you have this baby, right? They're like, this is going to be a perfect child and nothing could ever go wrong with them. What are you talking about? That they're going to grow up and become terrible teens or terrible adolescents or adults, right? They're going to be perfect little kids just like you, little gizmo, forever. And then we know that that doesn't happen because there are terrible people out there. People do terrible things. So people make mistakes. People make mistakes even if they're not terrible at their core. But some people are having antisocial personality disorder. Yeah. And I think we saw this, too with our recent episode on American Horror Story. Delicate. That if it hadn't actually been happening, these people would be delusional. And yet it is happening because we're in this fantastical story. But you even see how people react to it, like how the police officers in this movie reacted. And it's not really in a supportive way and how you just have to be so careful. Because I think if we're talking about people with clinical delusions or a delusional disorder, I think, at least in my experience, it's very hard to get people with these disorders into psychiatric treatment. Usually it's other providers. I'm thinking of delusional parasitosis, which is where you think you have an infection or a parasite or a skin. A lot of times it's skin rashes, bedbugs, things like that. So these people show up to the dermatologist over and over, the pathologist over and over. And, I mean, it can get pretty severe in terms of. I've seen people who've taken their own samples, like cut off some of their skin to bring or traps the bugs in a container, and there's nothing in it. But to try to get someone like that into psychiatric treatment is incredibly hard. And we don't have great medications for it. Maybe an antipsychotic, but it's tricky. Another thing is like MRIs, right? Because they'll be like, I'm convinced I have a tumor in my brain, or they have the whole body scans, right? So they get a lot of imaging, they're convinced something is there. And every time it's coming up, like it's normal. Nothing is there. Or even right. There's pseudosyesis, which is a delusional belief that you're pregnant when you're not. I saw a case of that in my training, which was fascinating. And it's just fascinating to me that our brains can do this. Yeah, we see this. I was going to say we see this in Parkinson's. Right. One of the more common delusions in Parkinson's is, like, the spouse is cheating on. And again, there's no evidence to this that's there, but it's like a unique kind of, like, Parkinsonian delusion. Yeah. And then, of course, we think about erotomanic delusions, which we've talked about a lot on our podcast, specifically with the show you, which we love. But, Portia, like, you'll appreciate this. I remember one time I had a patient, an elderly man, who had a neurotomanic disillusion about Taylor Swift and would listen to the radio all day long in his hospital room, waiting for her song to come on. And it would come on a lot, and he would be like, that's my girl. She's sending me a message. That's my girl. For real. And he was in the hospital for a totally non psychiatric reason. But when the team picked this up, they asked us to consult. I was on the consult team at the time, and we were like, well, he's not hurting anyone. He's not stalking her. We can't really change it. Yeah, there's an aspect of, like, we have to go along with it. We have to kind of keep an eye on it until it becomes problematic. Right. Until it crosses over into be like, oh, it's a problem. Right. And again, one thing we all want to keep emphasizing is that people with psychiatric conditions are much more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of violence. But at some point, I think, especially with more erotomanic or violent delusions targeted toward a specific person, that's when your red flags go up, and you have to be really careful in your assessment. I know. So poor Billy, seeking some help, and just really, his dad's not there. The cops aren't helping him save the day, the vet or the school teacher. God, that was so graphic. Yeah, it was a good movie. I have not seen it before, ever. So I enjoyed, thought. I didn't know what to expect. I think I thought it was going to be weirder. It was pretty weird, but I thought it was like, funny. It is funny. Yeah, it is pretty funny. And now, like Katrita says, which I thought was a good word, it's like, know. I wasn't scared watching it. It was great. Like the scene, they spent a lot of time when the gremlins are at the bar and they're just, like, doing all this stupid ****, right? They're, like, drinking, they're smoking. One of them has, like, a gun, like, just randomly shooting the other grandma's. And it's like, oh, this is all not, like, ideal teenage behavior, but not, ideally, not shooting each other. But this is what teenagers sometimes, right? Unfortunately, this is the idea. This is what teens do. They do stupid ****, right? They just get together and they act stupid around each other. They drink, and they make poor decisions, and things happen. And that was the thing, again, on this recent reviewing, I was like, oh, my goodness, I didn't see this before. I know. It's so interesting to me when you can rewatch movies as you grow up and take different things from them based on your own personal experience. And I always wonder, the people who made Gremlins, was that their goal, or is it just like an interesting coincidence? No, I don't think we'll know. I don't know. Well, someone, thank you so much for joining us today and for recommending holiday favorite holiday classic. Can you let us know where we can find you and follow you and join your TikTok Instagram? Follow Kick Shrink on, like, what's it called? Instagram and TikTok and YouTube. I'm trying to put a lot more effort into the YouTubing nowadays because that's where the money is trying to retire from know, but it's fun, too. And then Twitter is my old high school nickname, Sol Money, S-U-L money that I've had like that. I like that. Well, again, thank you so much for joining us, and we can't wait to see those cool sneakers whenever you get them. Thank you guys for having me. And you can find us, as always, at analyze Scripts podcast on TikTok Instagram, and now on YouTube as well. And we will see you next week for a new episode. Take care. All right, bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe. That's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred this podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are in our Holiday era with the movie "Love Actually." We are joined by Julia Israelski, LCSW for this episode as we spread some holiday cheer by analyzing family dynamics, couples of course and any mental health disorders or themes we pick up on. You can expect our narrative on some eyebrow raising comments about bodies, love bombing and infidelity. Oh, and did we mention the cast!? We hope you enjoy!

Instagram

Tiktok

Website

Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends. There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts. And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM Five and enjoy. Welcome back to another episode. We're so excited. Today we have a guest, my supervisor, who gives me great supervision, and another therapist in our community, Julia Israelski. And today we're going to be talking about Love Actually. So they've both seen it. I have not. Until now. I did watch it for the you had not seen this movie? No. Portia. Oh, my God. How? It's, like, one of the best movies of all time.

There's so many people in it. It's, like, amazing.

I I know. Know. Portia oh, my gosh. Yeah. I feel like this podcast has been, like, a journey for me to explore new classic genres and but all right, so I'm going to share a little bit about one of our co hosts today, Julia, before we get started, so you can know a little bit about her and all the amazing things she does. So Julia is Rilsky is a licensed clinical social worker, certified EMDR practitioner, and certified perinatal mental health professional and nearly 20 years of clinical experience. She currently has a private practice in Connecticut, where she specializes in interpersonal trauma, eating disorders, perinatal mental health, and parental stress. Prior to being in private practice, Julia was a clinical supervisor and oversaw the trauma program at a local community health center. Additionally, she has experience conducting forensic interviews and volunteering as a sexual assault crisis counselor. Most recently, she has been trying to spread her wheel of identity, which she created, which is really cool, to depathologize pathologize. Wow. Yeah. I can't seem to get it right. People that surviving these stressful times and to increase compassion for ourselves and others. So welcome.

Thanks.

Glad to be here. Welcome. Love act. Julie 2003. It's a little old. Amazing cast. Where should you start a rom.com? Yeah, right? It was kind of like coming out in the era of rom coms, I think. We haven't covered a rom.com yet, except maybe Legally Blonde. But I love this movie. I'm, like, in shock over. I'm having an acute stress response to Portia never having seen this movie. Oh, my gosh. It's so cast. I mean, I know that we'll get to our themes, but the cast was Rickman Rip, Harry Potter. Snape. Loved seeing him. Even though he's not a great character, he's good at playing the not great characters. Yeah, like villain era and then Emma Thompson, like, amazing. I was shocked to see her. Who else did you guys notice? Or who else? Liam Neeson. Yeah, I always love Liam Neeson. Laura Linney. Colin Firth. Just Keira Knightley. Yeah. And the little boy and the little girl were just adorable. Sam and Olivia, right? Was her name? I don't think it's Olivia. Oh, no. Did I get the name wrong? Oh, her real name's olivia. Her real name is Olivia Olsen. Gotcha. Anyway, but no, it is an all star cast. Sorry, Joanna. That's it. That's it. That's it. Thank you. And then, of course, we have Bill Nynee playing Billy Mac, which we just talked about him in a recent podcast episode about the best exotic Mary Gold Hotel. He was also in that movie, so it was fun for me to see him again in this movie, but, like, a totally different character. And I just loved him as, like, the aging pop star. Yeah, I didn't make that connection. So that's good. All right, so should we talk about couples? Should we talk about themes? What do we think? What's a good well, I think the whole premise of the movie is love, right? And I love how the movie begins and ends with those scenes at the Heathrow Airport, which I believe are all real. I don't think any of that's acting. I'm pretty sure that's all real. And I don't know if you guys knew this, but I think it was, like, 2021. I believe Britain recreated those scenes to talk about the pandemic kind of people being able to travel again and see their loved ones. And I know, right? It really gets you. And it was just interesting to watch all of that love. And it's just I don't know, like, Hugh Grant, we forgot to mention, like, the words he says at the beginning are just so beautiful. And I feel like it's just really timely to be talking about this movie and just the message in light of what's going on in the world right now.

I think that was one of the things I wrote down, was like, that quote in the beginning and can't remember what it was right now, but it's something about going through most people see the hard and the pain and the bad, but there's always love and there's always good. And yeah, I think it's super important right now with everything going on right.

To keep thinking about I think he says love actually is all around. And it reminds me of that Mr. Rogers quote, like, in times of stress, look for the helpers. Right, exactly. And so I just thought it was really poignant that we're talking about this movie kind of at this time in the month of December, as I think about Christmas and the holidays and families. And I think this movie does a good job kind of capturing people at different phases of life. All the complex interpersonal dynamics and relationships and so different forms of love, right?

Like friendship love, parent child love, romantic love. Like, just so many different forms of love, which I thought was great.

Right, exactly. Which we'll all see over the holidays whether we want to or not. So one thing that I had noticed, and I was kind know, texting a little bit with Julia and I don't know, Katrina, if you thought of this as watching it again, but I was just line after line, point after point of a lot of fat phobia. I thought that's why you wanted to cover this portia. Yeah. No, I know. No, I was like, no idea. I thought when we decided on this that that was one of the reasons you wanted to talk about it again. Because it's a lot directed at Natalie, who is not.

Really in a larger.

Like and I guess this is all subjective, of course, but it is weird to think like, oh, she's like the token, like, fat girl, but she's not.

Yes. I didn't remember that at all from having seen the movie in the past. But then this time I was like, oh, wow, it's like all over the place.

There's comments and I think that happens watching it, right? It's on you're playing with your kids or you're wrapping gifts or you're doing whatever, and you're not sitting down and watching it through a mental health lens. And after doing that with some things, we're like, oh, kind of over and over again at all of these icky moments. I think, unfortunately, it's a little bit to the times. I don't think that fat phobia by any means has gone away currently, but I think that's wildly inappropriate to have in a movie now. Even if it was a person in a larger body, it's just like it was just constantly happening. I don't know, I kept laughing and be like, are you guys did you know I so when this movie came out, I was in high school, so I think I picked it up because you're a high school girl, you're body conscious. And that was the time, I think, of maybe a little after the Kate Moss era, but not that much know. I think that was the time of Lindsay Lohan being in the news. Hillary Duff and Britney Spears. Like a lot of comments on women's bodies. Jessica Simpson. Like who's? Skinnier? Who's bigger? And so I feel like it is of the times that someone like Natalie would be called big or she kept talking about her legs being like tree trunks. I was like, we don't even see her legs. They're always in skirts. Like, what is going? But so I feel like it's like right on the times. But again, so icky to revisit, right? And then we even see Billy Mac talking about his manager. He keeps talking about how fat he is. It's just so weird, right? And then I think you even see that with Emma Thompson's character and then the hot young receptionist who's know flirting with her husband. They have different bodies, obviously. They're different people at different stages of life, different ages. But it was really interesting in way.

Yeah.

I think it's definitely within the times, even seeing Kara Knightley, it wasn't about her body per se, but I think with the comments and then just noticing her body, I know that obviously she's a very small person in a smaller body, but also one of the people who are highlighted at the time right. For being like maybe too or this is the ideal body. So I think it was just like an interesting comparison with the two. I know her, obviously from right, like Pirates of the Caribbean and stuff. Like the cast is mostly yeah, yeah. I think except for the American ones. And even when Colin goes to America to meet the hot girls, they're all like legit supermodels, right? But they all have similar bodies and everything. And I was just thinking like Aurelia, the Portuguese woman who Colin Firth's character falls in love with, like when he finally shows back up to propose, remember, the dad thinks he's wanting to propose to the other sister, who of course has to be know be in a larger body. So there is like a lot of fat phobia leading into this otherwise like super lovely movie. I feel like I also caught some homophobia, especially with Billy Mac and the manager. I couldn't tell if he really was in love with like in a romantic way or more like a familial way. And I wasn't really dad. Sorry, you go, Julia.

No, I was just going to say the relationship was a hot the manager.

Jerry, to say the least. Yeah. So Daniel to know stepson sam was initially, or know initially because it didn't change with him, but was like, I think really open to the idea if Sam was gay. Right. He was like, who do you who are you interested wear girl? I thought that feel so great. Also for 2003, which probably the movie was made in 2000, so that felt great. And then a couple of scenes later, an hour later, it was like, oh, now that we're a little bit homophobic, but again, feels kind of appropriate to the time. And maybe Billy Mac in that generation would have been more like that. Yeah. No, I agree. That's true. So I think we should spend a little bit of time on Sarah. So Sarah is at work, right. And she works with Carl. Carl. And Harry is her boss. That's like character played by Alan Rickman. So there's all these connections. So Harry is like trying to get her to talk to Carl, to hang out with him because she's in love with him and the whole office knows. I feel like that was inappropriate for a boss to intervene. Right. At first I thought maybe they were related like, is that his sister or something? And then I was like, oh, no, that's just her boss.

Yeah, super inappropriate. I thought it was really, like, a nice little foreshadowy. I told Portia, like, I'm obsessed when I think of that movie, all I think about is the cell phone ring like, that, like and when he first goes over to her to say something about how she loves Carl, he's like, turn off your like, that was the first thing he said. And I thought that was just like so it just speaks to how long this pattern with her brother has been going on and how intrusive it is in her world. I just thought it was an interesting little hint to that.

What do you think her brother has schizophrenia, by the way. She's sort of talking to him when he calls and saying, like, well, I don't know if I can talk to the Pope. Let me see. I don't know about the aliens. And I just think it's got to be incredibly hard to be the only surviving family member for someone with such a serious mental health condition. We see her go visit him in the psychiatric hospital. Almost looks like he's institutionalized, like he lives there. I think she alludes to her parents, no longer being around. I just think that's, like, an immense amount of pressure, and you can tell that she feels like she can't not answer or hang up the phone or we even see her, unfortunately, feeding his delusions by saying, like, well, I don't know if I can get a hold of the Pope. Let me see. And I think that happens, but it's such a tricky line to walk. I think, even for providers, that's tricky to walk. How do you maintain the sense of reality without challenging the patient too much, where they get upset and feel alone, but then it can be risky to sort of go along with kind of, like, collude with their delusion. So I really felt for her, it.

Was like, Julia, what do you the when she had her moment with Carl and then the phone ring, and she's, like, sitting, trying to stay in the moment, but not and then she gets.

Off the guy, and it was just so sad.

I just felt so bad for her. It's like, you know, that pull of family versus your future and kind of where you like, the past and the future pole thing. It was sad.

What would you work on her with in therapy? If she was your patient hungry? How would you do it?

Well, I guess I would want to understand her history more. Where did she learn that she's responsible for all of this, and where does she learn her kind of people pleasing prioritizing everybody else? And then just how does that serve her? How does it not? And if there are other supports that could be involved with her brother's care that she could utilize more and just trying to help her feel less alone in it and see that she's a person too. Because I think that often, especially women grow up feeling like they're not seen right, like, in the world, in a lot of places. And it's easy to be easy to just go along with the flow and just do what people need you to do. And I just feel like that's sort of she's filled this role for her brother because no one else is there to do it. And she loves him, and it's like she doesn't even see that she's a person too. And I feel like that happens so often with women. So that's what I would kind of want to work with her on. It's like seeing herself as an individual also. And who is she and how can she exist and support her brother without one being more important? What about you guys? How do you approach it?

That sounds good to me. Yeah, no, I mean, I think really just trying to see herself as your needs are also important, or you're allowed to do both. I think that's really hard for people who are taking care of a sick loved one in any terms of the word sick is just like, how can you also live your life and have needs and wants fulfilled while also assisting in a way that is helpful and beneficial to you and the person you're providing support for? Otherwise it just leads to burnout. And I think she is more than burned out, but it's like her life kind of doesn't exist. Yeah, it's like being his sister is her whole identity. When you try to think about her identity, that is 95% of it. And in situations like this, I also start to think about what is she getting out of it? Is there something where she's feeling important, she's feeling powerful, she's feeling altruistic, she's feeling good. Like, this is how she's feeling good. We don't know what her early relationship was like with her parents or if there was some talk about estate planning or what will happen to him when they're not here. I talk to a lot of adult patients who might have a sibling with special needs or some other medical or mental health condition as their parents age. Like, okay, what's going to happen? And that's a lot to take on. And I think with her, I don't know if she would show up to therapy. Right. I don't know if she wants to change. It kind of seems like she doesn't. She had Carl right there, and he is like, whoa, she's been pining after him for what, two days, seven months, 6 hours, two minutes, or whatever it was. He's there. And that pull to her brother in that whole situation so powerful. I don't know if she'd show up a, but I think I'd also work with her in addition to the boundary stuff for sure, like, normalizing all of the negative feelings she might be suppressing related to sort of being expected to fulfill this role and just kind of normalizing it.

You see it in that moment when she gets like he leaves when they're in the office and what's his name, carl walks out and then she's having her moment of being upset. And then the phone rings.

She's like, hi. It's just so I know. I thought it was also kind of weird how she would refer to her brother, like darling or it seemed almost like, romantic. And I don't think it I'm not trying to imply it was, but it doesn't seem like a way you'd call your sibling. I don't know, there was something about that that to me spoke to how their relationship is really enmeshed. Bigger. Yeah. Really enmeshed. That's the word. Yeah. It rides the line between almost appearing right, like inappropriately romantic or parent child.

That's what I found.

Darling or sweetie. Or sweetheart. But I think she also did say babe. Did she say babe? A babe, yeah. Which was like I mean, again, it felt really like parent child. And then when she's in the institution, hospital, home with him, and I thought that she, on the other hand, does a really good job at deescalating him so he kind of becomes physical. A person comes out to kind of assist and she is able to kind of talk him down and seemingly to bring him back into the moment. Which I'm not surprised because she's probably been doing it for years and knows everything on how to assist him, but really hard. I also didn't love that the movie is perpetuating this false narrative that people with psychotic disorders are violent towards others, which sometimes that happens, but we know far and away people living with psychotic disorders are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators. And again, I think as much as I love this movie, as a movie, there's a lot of criticisms I have from mental health viewpoints, and that's a big one for me. Yeah. Do you think people were institutionalized, as we talked about in other episodes with the 1850s, 1940s, but do you think in 2003 someone would be living somewhere long term with schizophrenia? It's like right. They should be able to kind of manage it on their own with outside supports. It's a different country. I don't know. But it felt like I don't know. Yeah. I'm not sure what the landscape is like in the UK, but I mean, even now, even after the deinstitutionalization movement, there are still people who are ill enough where they do require group homes or things like that. We don't know.

It looked a little institutional for a residential.

I felt like it was trying to.

Be both, but it felt a little hospitaly.

Yeah. I was like, Is this a forensic hospital? Has he been violent or in the past? Is that why he's here, we don't really know. Yeah, but I think the clearest on the surface mental health right. Like coupling of the movie. So I don't know. I mean does she ever end up with like no. Yeah, I don't think moving on. Yeah. That final lingering glance between the two of them was so sad to me and as he should. Right. Like if I'm Carl's therapist, and you're kind of also secretly pining over this woman for years and, you know, make your move, do something which is awesome, and then you kind of see that it's just probably not going to go anywhere. And this is the case processing with him how to move forward and find someone else who can be more available currently to him. And obviously I hope Sarah gets there but it doesn't seem like it's going to be quick. Yeah. I mean that's such intense rejection to literally be like half naked in the bed and she can't stop answering the phone and you're just sort of finally connecting. I mean that's just such intense rejection. Right. I think it's healthier for him probably to process that disappointment and move on. But I think that's a great segue into us also talking about all the times we see people trying to make romantic love connections in the movie. Right. There's so many of them and it just I think really highlights how vulnerable you have to be to put yourself out there and how do each of them cope with either someone taking them up on it or rejecting them and how that's so dependent on their individual personality styles. Makes me think of the naked couple yes. Just how they're like naked and are they sex? Yes. *****? Yeah. I don't think it's a *****. I think it's like an R movie. I don't know. I mean maybe it's ***** but I saw someone talking on TikTok about how that does happen. But they're not naked. So when you are using stand ins to do cues and stuff like that, they might be doing the same moves though on top of each other or kind of like humping each other. But they wouldn't be nude. And so I thought it was so funny right. He alludes to having a hard time asking people out or being shy and first of all I'm like how did you get comfortable in this role? But I was great.

It just seems so hot their personalities.

To be both so funny. I know. They're both so quiet and polite. Let me warm up my hands for you. Is this know? It's so like it's also kind of a nice I don't know I think consent is too far but you know what mean like it's kind of a nice depiction of checking in with your partner and it was such a funny juxtaposition know as he's saying what Portia was just saying, they're like totally naked simulating a sexual know yeah. And he's just I was finally able to ask you. It seems like maybe he just needs to be naked from now on in order to ask people out. I think emotions, of course, are vulnerable, but it's like, also what's more vulnerable?

Exactly.

Unclothed. Like your body's on display. I think there's even, like a reality show out there now. Have you heard of this reality show? It has multiple seasons where you have I forget what it's called, but it's like the whole premise is you start by looking at each other's genitals or like you're dating naked. Yeah, you're like dating naked before you even start to get to know each other. And that's the whole quote unquote premise that let's just be as vulnerable as.

We unveiling is just a shot at the genitals.

I heard this. It's from the UK. So another UK show.

That's fascinating.

I think it's in multiple seasons. It's in like season four or six or something. So I heard someone else talking about on another Rick podcast. So I don't know, the fact oh, my gosh, I have to find they were I wonder if we heard the same podcast. I'm laughing now because I was like, they were saying how people are getting rejected for just obviously face value genitals. And they were talking. The one I heard was about the person searching for love is a female. So she's heterosexual. So there's all these men that she's looking at and their penises and one's too small, but one's too big. But then they say what they were kind of critiquing the show for is that they're not being honest with like, no, your ***** is too small or your ***** is too big. They're like, oh, yeah, I just didn't really get a good vibe. And it's like, no, you only saw his *****. Say what you're going to say about I don't know. Anyway. Another UK show. Isn't that wild? It's so wild to me that someone had the idea for this show and someone like, a lot of people ran with it and that people are consuming it so much that they've had multiple seasons. And then portia, I think your point is totally valid. But then I'm thinking about this woman. Like, what are you supposed to say? I know. And the podcast I was listening to was like, a woman commenting on an episode where a man who is heterosexual is looking at a bunch of vaginas. And the woman was like, I had no idea. They look so different.

In a way, I feel like that part is kind of normalizing and helpful because I think that that's something a lot of, like, I don't know. I had clients talk about that and feeling self conscious about that aspect of their so, like, I feel like there could be some normalization that happens, but sure, right.

I don't know how you like, what is it on? Like, is this on HBO? I was like, I think even streaming has it can't be, like, just on basic cable, right? I hope in the news, especially, I would think in Britain, where they're a little more buttoned know, stereotypically than Americans. Maybe not.

I don't think that would fly.

Maybe we're like shattering stereotypes. Yeah, maybe. But anyway, back to love, actually. So let's talk about Karen and Harry. That scene where she's so excited to open her present.

I know.

And it's the CD, which, if she hadn't seen the necklace, maybe it would have been really thoughtful. Right. But she did see and like, just when she goes away and cries and then has to come back and rally the kids and be excited to protect.

Her in that moment.

Every time I see that, I cry, every time, I just think, like and I just think that it's such a great depiction of what it's like to be a mom. I was going to say try to have your own experiences, but then be putting your kids first. So powerful. It really is. Just I tried.

Yeah, me too. She really it's so raw and real, and you could just feel it.

I saw a video that was saying or she was interviewed, emma Thompson was about that scene and why it's so powerful. And I guess that at the time, she had found out that her current partner was having an affair with the woman who plays Bellatrix in Harry Potter. I forget her name. Elena bonham Carter. Yes. Yes. And Emma Thompson is also in Harry Potter. She plays Professor Trelawney. So I just thought that was interesting. And now they're, like, friends, but they went on to have, like, a five year relationship, helen and her ex. So she says that it was so real, which is why I think you can watch the movie multiple times and still feel it. Feel it's so raw. And I think what beautiful art, right? Like, you just said, Borsha to watch it multiple times and still feel it. Because whether we all face betrayal in our lives in one flavor, or, like, even if it's not like that, like, you just get it and you just feel it with and like, just seeing her cry to Joni Mitchell, the CD he just gave her, and then tap your tears. Let's go with the Christmas lobsters. It's just and I feel like even.

If you don't have, like, that feeling of, like, you have to button it up and go back out into the world, I feel like is something that everybody kind of experiences, even, like, going.

To work after getting bad news. I think one of the hardest things we as humans have to do, which feels, to me very Western culture, like, up. You got to go to work, though. We have to kind of shelve our humanity and kind of get back on the wheel. And I think as mental health professionals, I think it's having something tragic happen in your. Life and then kind of trying to figure out when to come back to work or how you can show for your patients or what patients are going to be triggering because maybe a similar thing just happened to you. I think I'm not going to say it's especially hard because I don't want to quantify it, but I think it's very difficult to do, which I think we ask too much of people to do that. I totally agree. And I'm not sure, again, in our culture, which if you're working for a corporation and your mother dies, maybe you get 48 hours leave to go to the funeral and come back. Right. There's not a lot of room for grief in our culture. And I'm just thinking now of in the British culture, I'll never forget seeing William and Harry playing to the crowds at their mom's funeral when they were kids. Right. I just think it's like we're not good at grief in general and these cultures we're talking about. But yeah, I think especially as therapists or mental health professionals, you do want to show up for your patients, and at least I feel like responsibility to be there for them and be consistent as much as you can. And you have to keep your own humanity in mind, and knowing where to draw that line is really hard and I think comes with time and experience and from modeling. Right. Like, you have to have good supervisors or teachers who also model that and keep sending the message like it's okay and healthy to have your own boundaries and to recognize your own thought.

The little kid Sam, did a good job when he was like, I know I'm supposed to be thinking about mom, but I'm thinking about I'm in like, I think people feel so guilty feeling anything other than know and like, there's a lot of feelings at once and that's okay.

Yes. Did you, Julia, watch the show Shrinking, by any chance? Yeah, we love that show. But also there was a scene there with the daughter who she had that moment where she was, like, looking at a picture and noticed how happy she looked, and then she felt instantly guilty. How can I be happy when my mom's it's like forgetting them. That's so common and complicated. And you're right. I think this was another scene that really nailed it on the head. Yeah. Their relationship was beautiful. I thought, like, Sam and his stepdad, his mom had we don't know about.

Do we know about dad?

I don't think so. Or at least I didn't catch it.

Catch anything on it.

He just, like, shows up for one. I don't know, just like in a beautiful way that I feel like we couldn't even try to make it better as a therapist. Oh, well, he could have done this. It's like he just hits in every way, like giving him space, like letting him drum, respecting his signs. And then really fostering no, it's okay to be excited about something, too, or yeah. Let's focus on your love. It was just so beautiful as, like, a step. It really was.

It really was. And I love how he like, you put it in the notes, like, something about how awful love is, or the most painful total agony of total agony of falling in love.

Right. Like, Liam Neesa's character, I think his name's know they're sitting on that bench, and he's like, Something's wrong with Sam. He won't come out of his room. His mother just died. We don't know how long he's been in the picture. Like, if it's a short, it's if he's, like, raised, and we don't really know. I think it's clear he's adopted him, but you can tell he's not sure what to do, and of course he feels that way. And then they're on the bench, you can tell. He's like, oh, my God, what is going on? Are you doing drugs? What's going on? And then he says, I'm in love, and he's so relieved. But then the little boy is like, how can you be relieved? This is so agonizing. And it was just so beautiful and funny, and he was so valid.

Yes, you're right. Just it was really sweet and, like.

Young love is just beautiful and an important way that we learn right. About feelings and heartbreak and how to tolerate when someone doesn't like you back. I don't know. It's so important for us to learn. But then I think I would imagine also just wanting to protect your kids from those really hard feelings. Yeah. And so how beautiful that he encouraged him to go for it. Even though Joanna was leaving, he wasn't like, oh, what's the point? She's leaving. He was like, no. And I have to imagine that was influenced by his own grief. I was about to say I know you said that. I thought about the grief parallel, that he's like, no, you still love even if you're going to lose. Yeah. What a beautiful message to send a little boy who's somewhere in there grieving himself. Yeah. And then Emma or Karen after the play, when she like, what would you do? And then she kind of says, when you like the necklace. And I was so happy that she brought it up that, yes. And quickly. I don't know. I mean, it's kind of an impossible situation of knowing what to do, but it seemed like it was best for her to kind of just bring it up. And then he was obviously taken aback, and then, I'm such a fool, and she's like, no, but you made a fool out of me. And I was like, yes, that's like the ultimate betrayal. Or that, I think just quantifies her emotions of feeling foolish. Right. Like, I trusted you. You made little of our relationship, et.

Cetera, like a sense of humiliation, like, after that kind of yes.

And the fact that he was looking at the necklace with Mr. Bean, wrapping it up in such a funny, dramatic way while she was off Christmas shopping, probably for their kids or probably his mom or something, and he's doing that that's rage. And you have to know that as she gets the CD and she's putting it all together, she probably realized what was going on. And so cruel. You don't have to do that. It's like bad enough to be like, having an affair or an emotional affair, whatever you want to call it. I don't know how if it got physical with this secretary or not, but you have to do it when she's there with you. Like, go to the store later by yourself. Yeah. It's like so Mia I think that's her name, mia, I think was she was very overt with her advances. Right. Like sitting in the chair, like opening her legs. Okay, that's definitely a visual. And then I thought, which was really bold for both Harry and Mia was at the Christmas party, right. Karen is there, and she's like, asking him to dance. And I was just, wow. Like and Karen seemed to just be trusting the whatever she makes a comment of something like that. But it seems like then she really trusts know this is, you know, making advances, and it's inappropriate. Sure. But she trusts Harry. And then the fact right. To then find out that that's not the case, I think was obviously just like and again, like so humiliating to do that in front of everyone in a like it's just so cruel. It's so cruel. So I'm dying to know what you guys would do if the couple came to you for couple therapy or if each individually came to you, how would you help them navigate it? Because at the end, we see harry comes back from traveling somewhere. They're greeting him at the airport. And Karen isn't like, super warm and kissy kissy to say hello to him, but she's there picking him up. So it's not clear to me. Are they staying together? Are they working on it? Are they going to separate? How is it all going to unfold? Yeah, I don't know. I would imagine I don't work frequently or ever really with couples, but it would be just seeing what are their goals? Do they have a goal? Are they even in a place to say, we'd like to try to get past this, or are you getting to a goal and you're just kind of processing what happened? I feel like I've worked separately with both parties. Someone who has been unfaithful in our relationship and someone who has been the Karen. And it's really interesting, I think, to work with both just because I don't know. I think it just helps you understand why it happens. And it's not really like to excuse the behavior. Ultimately, it's a betrayal of trust, and it's lying but I think it's really just about getting people to see if there can be a repair or where they want to go next and if they can get through it, or what does it mean? Does it mean that the relationship is over? Or does it mean that something's going on that can be fixed?

I don't do couples either, but I feel like I would start with, what do you think you want? What are we working towards? But I don't do couples, so maybe you wouldn't.

Yeah, you in situations like this, like you want to say it's so clear, like, you should leave him. That's awful. But it's rarely that clear or that easy, especially when you have kids involved. You could be so mad at him, but still want the kids to love their dad. And I think Karen would be the kind of mom where she would walk that line. Right. Like, we saw it, the way she sort of pulled herself together and got those lobsters to the school, that she's not going to batmouth him in front of the kids, nor should she, but it's just not that simple to be like, oh, I'm just going to leave. And sometimes people feel a lot of shame when they don't want to leave and when they want to stay. And how do you work through it? It's just so tricky. No, I agree. And I think it's also important right, to keep your own judgments, which we do, but to ourselves, how could you do that? Not saying that. Or why don't you just leave him? Not going to say that. It's like having that place of not being a friend or like a family member, but like therapist who's really just exploring feelings. Sometimes it's hard. It's so hard. I think, especially with even sometimes, I always have to keep in mind, even if you're not saying it verbally, sometimes your facial expressions or reactions can rat you out. Right. And you want to just stay neutral because you don't know which way they're going. And you want your patient to feel comfortable and that they can be totally open. And sometimes they're really pulling for you. They really want to know what you think. It's almost like they want to relinquish their responsibility on you, and they want you to make the decision for them. And it gets tricky. That's why I think couples therapy is so yeah. So hard. We have to find someone a good one, I guess. Good one, but someone to have on here. I have a lot of questions for them. Yeah. We should do, like, a movie, I guess. All right, who else do we want to cover as we wrap up? Anyone hit on? I think definitely Natalie and the prime minister and harassment and the US. President.

Yeah.

Billy bathroom was so.

Everything about him just made my skin crawl just perfect.

And I was like, I feel like this is how people see Americans as just, like, takers in a lot of ways, I feel like he's not doing us any favors here. Hugh Grant or what's his name, his character?

Prime Minister.

Yeah, I think it's just Prime Minister. So he sees past Natalie's large body and allegedly be with her, and I think it's sweet. He obviously is very work oriented, and he kind of notices she's really nice, and he kind of doesn't realize that he's into her, I think, until he sees her being sexually harassed or assaulted by the US president. And then he kind of intervenes and has that big moment where he stands up to him. And it seems like all the staff and the UK are all really pleased. So I don't know. What did you guys think of his chase of going out to her neighborhood? I thought it was kind of inky that he fired her at some point and then found out where she lived and swooped her off her feet. Again, it's like, okay. On the one hand, it's like, oh, he really loves her so much that he's knocking on every door trying to find her. It's humorous, but it kind of was icky and maybe some red flags. Again, I didn't get the sense that his character is like a true Malignant narcissist, but it could go that way. I don't know. A little bit of love bombing, maybe. Out of nowhere, he's in a position of power over her. They're hot and heavy really quick. I think I'm overanalyzing it. But there was something right. They reminded me of the other couple. Right. So Kira Knightley and her recent husband. And that's an interesting you know, I think everyone probably assumes that he's going to be into husband Peter, and when he's not, I was like, Whoa, kind of shocked, but I just thought it was icky. Yes. I feel like this movie, there's a lot of relationships where it's like, is it sweet or creepy?

But I feel like it's not sort of not love is not creepy, but the challenge of love.

Right.

What feels really romantic to one person can feel really invasive to another. And that balance of what is appropriate, what's not, how does this land on this person versus what is their intention? And I think it does a good job of kind of depicting the complexity of that.

Definitely. Especially, I think, the scene when he has the cue cards, which is like, such a famous scene now, so iconic. And I remember watching in high school being like, oh, my God, that's so sweet. It was so creative. This was like back in the day when you'd ask someone to go to prom, it was like this big thing. But now as an adult, when I'm rewatching it, I'm just oh. Like, I tried to imagine being Kieran Iley's character, like, watching the wedding video, and it dawning on you that it's all you, and you're just like, oh, I thought she'd be admiring me. Like, you could see her face go.

From a really genuine smile to.

Yeah. And it's like, are you going to now capture me in your basement or can I get out of this house?

I was confused by her running after him, though.

Me too.

I didn't get that. And they never really explained it and I didn't really right.

Was it a goodbye acknowledgment? Almost. Did it kind of put a period at the end of like, oh, that was sweet, and like, I don't know, I think a little inappropriate, but like, did it end there or are now they going to go off and kind of have this secret affair together? It just didn't make sense with the context because she had always thought that he didn't like her, but now she's interested or in love. It was just kind of confusing. I didn't know what it meant. Yeah, that's actually such a great example of reaction formation, where you behave opposite, I think, than how you're really feeling. The guy's doing that, right. He really loves her, so he's so rude and cold to her and she's like, oh, he really doesn't like me. I know, I didn't understand. And she just got married and she could have just hooked him, right.

The fact that it was a kiss and the way she ran out, it just left me like, are they going.

To go back to this?

But it's funny when you say how when you were in high school because I remember that scene in my mind, I always thought it was so sweet. It was like this love moment. And then this time when I watched it, I was know your best friend's.

I know. Like, on Christmas Eve or something. And I know I feel so bad for Peter that he has no idea all this is going on. It puts Peter and Julia in such a weird but especially really, it almost seems like punishment for her. And I don't think he means it that way. But now she knows this about him.

What does she do with this?

Right? But then she goes and kisses him. So I'm really confused. I would love them to do like, a sequel now and just see all the same actors and actresses except Alan Rickman Rip, and just see where'd they end up. People would watch. That's our free movie advice of this episode. They can make a part two sequel. Yeah. And hopefully it's less fat phobic and we'll take it from there. Or we'll see. I don't know. But anyway, as we wrap up, we want to just thank everyone so much for joining us today. In this month of December, we hope you are going to have a good holiday season if you celebrate the holidays. And we do give a little bit of tips throughout these episodes of just like, having boundaries with family and friends and kind of how to navigate some difficult potential situations with gatherings and sometimes alcohol and all the things that can happen with that. Holidays are notoriously stressful for everyone, whether you struggle with your mental health or not. They just are. So, yeah, keep tuning in to hear more about our take. We're so grateful you joined us today, Julia.

Thank you so much.

It was super fun. And we will catch you next Monday with a new episode and you can follow us on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. You can watch our videos now at Analyze Scripts podcast. Thanks. Bye. All right, bye.

This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are joined by WFSB morning show anchor, Nicole Nalepa, to discuss season 3 of "The Morning Show." In this season we see a different Alex Levy and discuss if people with narcissism can change. We get to see Cory's mom which gives us such great information for answering the age old question of nature versus nurture. Bradley and her brother continue to give us strong family dynamics to discuss and we finish up with the impact of power and money on a person's personality. Nicole answers all our questions about what goes on behind the scenes at a morning show (like what time she wakes up and if she does her own hair and makeup). Nicole also shares how she practices self care while covering traumatic stories and events. We hope you enjoy!

Instagram

TikTok

Website

Watch on Youtube

Mommyhood Unscripted

Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. And welcome back for another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm Dr. Katrina Fury. Of course, I have my friend and colleague Portia Pendleton here and we are so excited to welcome a very special guest, nicole Nalapa, who is the anchor of Connecticut's number one morning newscast, Eyewitness News in the Morning, and the co host of WFSB's newest lifestyle TV show, great Day at Nine A. She came to WFSB in December 2013 and has been waking up Connecticut every weekday morning since. She wears many hats at channel three. Her newest role began in September 2022 when she was named the co host of Great Day at Nine A. Alongside Scott Hanley. She also hosts the weekly franchises, including Family Friday, What's Going On, the Bright Spot, and Three Things You Need to Know. And when you don't. She also has a podcast called Mommyhood Unscripted, which is available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, where she tackles some of the biggest topics and least discussed issues surrounding motherhood, which, as a reproductive psychiatrist, I totally love. She's a mama, too and takes listeners along for the ride. And before coming into Connecticut, she did a whole bunch of things. She worked in Springfield, she did a lot of live on scene reporting, she had an Emmy winning newscast aired on CNN, and she also spent several months at CBS in New York, interning for the evening news with Katie Couric. Is that right?

Nicole Nalepa: Yes, that's right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So we are so thrilled that she's here, a, because she's super cool, and B, because we're talking about one of our favorite shows, the Morning Show season three. And this is just, like, so exciting to talk to someone who's actually on a morning show, right? Like, I'm just dying to hear what is that? Like, how do you wake up so early? Do you like getting your hair and makeup done every day? Is it like the kardashians where you sit there on your phone and they're just fluttering around you? Do you do your own investigative work? What do they get? Right? Basically, I want to know all the things.

Nicole Nalepa: Well, thank you so much, ladies, for having me on your podcast. I'm so excited to be here. And, yeah, it is exciting to talk about a show that has to do with this industry because so often I always say to my coworkers we have had so many laughs and so many funny moments and also emotional moments both in front of the camera and behind the scenes. So I always say this would make a great reality show but it's hard to right? Because in the news industry you need to be as unbiased as possible. But I swear we are real human beings. We go to the bathroom, we do everything else that you guys do.

Dr. Katrina Furey: No way.

Nicole Nalepa: But no, it was fun. I loved in The Morning Show came out, I was really excited. And of course, I Have to Admit, I Had a very hypercritical eye, too, because whenever you see I mean, obviously the process of how things happen, but whenever you see people who are trying to portray anchors or reporters, you have that anchorman like, Good Morning, San Diego. And that was the one thing when I Got Into business, I look back at my Old reels and old clips and stuff when I First Started out, and I said, oh, little Nicole, she was trying to be older and tried to get that news voice, and we were all feeling it out. Everyone does when you're starting out in the business. But I remember at Some point, something clicked. I think it was when I got here to Connecticut. At that point, because I had a few reps in, in Springfield, I was actually hired as a traffic anchor. Technically, here in Connecticut, I was going to be a reporter. But then their traffic anchor was leaving, and then they said, hey, you should work with this guy, Scott Haney. You know, the guy that ate cat vomit off the bottom of his shoe, alive on air. And I'm like, what? Well I've never heard of this guy but he know the most beloved meteorologist and on air talent probably in the state of Connecticut. I had no idea of his legacy until I got here from Massachusetts and I said wow, now I get know this is like the magic and at that know, doing traffic it was all ad living. I didn't have a teleprompter so I really had to think on my feet and working alongside him he's so zany and crazy and unpredictable in the best way possible and definitely in an unconventional news way. I would say that nothing is rehearsed, nothing is fake even in the newsroom excuse me, in the morning show and the newsroom, that's another great show too. They also have those fake laughs you see they're trying to elicit those emotions but they schedule it in I remember saying to myself I never want to fake anything. I don't want a news anchor voice, I just want to be me and it's work.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's so cool. Tell us a little bit about your take about the morning show like what it's getting right, what it's getting wrong?

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah well so the morning show, that's from a network standpoint so that's big time right. That's new York. You're seeing all of these operations. There's a job for everything. There's a person behind the camera, there's a person that's running scripts. There's a person that's running you scripts. There's someone what was it? The anchor producer. Right. Someone's set to just produce the anchor.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There's someone there's a junior and a senior one.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah. There's a big hierarchy. Yes. The booker. I wish we had a booker here on a local level, local TV news. It is quite the opposite. And just by way of we basically do five different jobs. That's just kind of how we've adapted into this industry, provided it's changed over the years. Like the that was definitely the heyday of before the World Wide Web really took charge and came through. And these phones, too, right. Have changed the way we get our news. So there were more bodies, I would say in, but I don't know even if you could see in our studio here, I'll turn you around, but we have robotic cameras. We don't have camera guys in our studio. We have literally a system that will tell the camera where to zoom in and who to zoom in on. So we don't have camera guys like the morning show. But obviously in New York, at CBS News, when I was interning there, they have camera that was that was accurate, I would say. And seeing the process. Right. And when breaking news comes in and how they're all kind know, just huddling up really quick. Yeah. How are we going to figure this out? We got to get it on. We got to get it on. That's very accurate. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: How do you wake up so early?

Nicole Nalepa: So that's one thing I love, seeing the morning show and how they portray the alarm clock. Right. They're always like and trying to hit.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Snooze and they have to get out of bed.

Nicole Nalepa: And I love the shots. Right. The close up shots of them trying to put their shoes in the slippers and making their coffee. And that's very accurate as well. I think to work on a morning show, to some degree, you have to be a morning person. Whether you feel like you're a morning person or not, to some degree, you have to there are some people that can do it, probably, and some people that can't. Some people are more night owls. I worked overnight when I started in the business, and then when I came here to Channel Three, I ended up my shift was shifted. So I think I was working four to twelve when I first started here and then shifted back. And I don't know, to me, going from overnights to getting up early in the morning, I actually got to sleep finally, like when everyone else sleeps, when it starts out. So that was an upgrade for me. It's still tough, though. My alarm goes off at 230, so no 330 alarm like Alex Levy or.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Bradley jackson extra hour of sleep.

Nicole Nalepa: Wow. Yeah. And she probably has a driver, too. Most networks, they have a driver. They send a car and they drive you to the station. No, I'm driving myself. And I'm doing my own hair and makeup, too.

Dr. Katrina Furey: No, it looks great. Yeah, you're really good at it.

Nicole Nalepa: Thanks. That's another thing, another little myth I'll dispel. So we don't have any makeup or hair artists. Most local news stations do not. I think New York may still have hair and makeup. Maybe La. And I don't even know if Chicago does anymore. When I was interning in Boston about I mean, this is a little while ago now, but they didn't have hair and makeup. You that was, I think, probably one of the big expenses to go.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That takes skill to do on air quality hair and makeup that's different from your everyday hair and makeup.

Nicole Nalepa: It is.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's expecting a lot of you to be able to do that and be a journalist.

Nicole Nalepa: I call it your clown makeup. I'm like, I have my clown makeup on stronger. Right? Exactly. Because these lights are very bright and you don't want to get washed out, but that's a skill. We do have these image consultants, most stations do, where they'll say, hey, this shade looks really good on you. And they'll show us some makeup tips and just recommendations, which is really helpful. Right. Because it's accentuating the parts right. And the features in your face. So I've learned over the years from multiple consultants at my stations, and it's been really helpful. But you have to have a thick skin, too, because you're looking at your face really early in the morning every day. And I learned that my face is not symmetrical like I always thought it was when I drew myself portraits in school.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it's pretty rare to have a symmetrical face.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I also appreciated that they were really honing in on how early the characters wake up, because that is hard. I remember in my residency training, doing, like, 24 hours shifts, night shifts, shifting between night shift and day shift, it was so hard on your body. It's just like your circadian rhythm isn't meant to do that. And I remember working overnight in the Er, and it was like, every night right around 03:00 A.m., I would get so cold and tired and hungry, and I had some senior attending tell me, like, well, yeah, your cortisol level drops around this time, so naturally you want to kind of hibernate. And so just thinking about you and watching the show, I'm like, It must be extra hard to wake up at that time.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah. I think before kids, I made it work and didn't get a lot of sleep. And then when I became pregnant, and then after my second pregnancy, I'm like, oh, God, I wasn't sleeping at all. That was the hardest I've ever experienced. So I appreciate my sleep now more so than I did in my 20s, when you remember being in your twenty s and just we can ride this out. We'll catch up on the weekend. I can take a nap when I get home.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Well so one thing that we thought would be interesting and portia, please chime in. Is, again, one thing that we or I find myself often telling my patients these days. I would say kind of always, but especially since 2020 with COVID and the election and the social unrest in our country and everything going on, we would talk a lot about limiting your news consumption to help limit how much traumatic material you were being exposed to that you're already thinking about throughout the day. And even, like, our diagnostic manual called the DSM, the way they define PTSD or post traumatic stress disorder, changed from version four to version five, which actually came out many years before 2020. But they adjusted it so that people who before then, you had to actually experience the trauma directly to be able to be diagnosed with a trauma disorder. Now they've changed it. So you can either experience it directly, witness it, like, via bystander, or experience it vicariously. And I believe that was done in part to capture a whole lot of other people who are being traumatized. And I know especially, like, in my training, we talked a lot about people in certain professions, like police officers, firefighters, journalists, newscasters, photojournalists, who are like, in the thick of it, like, we see Andre in season three. But I was wondering if you could kind of speak to that, because I feel like you can't limit it. You are reporting on it, and I just think that's got to be so hard. And I wonder, how do you guys take care of each other? How do you take care of yourselves? Is that talked about in the field? Is anyone looking out for you guys in terms of your own mental health? I feel like I hope so.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that that's probably a question we don't always get. We always get the what time do you wake up in the morning? But of course, when we think of the serious and the more traumatic things that we cover, we don't always want to go there asking people those questions. Right. But I am so happy to answer that. I can only speak, obviously, from my experience, but from what I have experienced in covering some traumatic stories in particular, actually, the one that comes to mind when you were talking about this is the Boston Marathon bombings. I was there, maybe less than a mile from where they ended up finding the brother underneath the boat that was hiding at the you know, from the moment the bombs went off at the finish know we were wall. To wall coverage, obviously from up until when I got a call in the middle of the night from my news director at the time saying, we're sending you to Watertown. And that's where the staging area is. The brothers know, throwing Molotov cocktails at everyone. And it was just such a scary time knowing, like, okay, well, this is my job and I'm going into it. And I remember sitting at the kitchen table that night and going, I'm going to let my parents know where I'm headed now, because we really didn't know what we were going into. I remember I had my insurance card and really quick before I left in the middle of the night, which, I mean, I was in my mid 20s, little over prepared, I guess I was thinking a little bit ahead, god forbid something were to happen, but you don't know. Yeah, it's very scary. And I remember when the movie about the Boston Marathon bombings came out. I still to this day, haven't seen it. And I'm from I just I feel like I've been there. I lived through it, know, to experience, know what it was like. I don't really want to see a Hollywood adaptation to watch it, but I think that it is so important to keep your mental health in check. That was kind of something for me at the time. That's how I was keeping things in check. I didn't want to expose myself to something that maybe wouldn't make me feel happy watching and reliving again. Right. So I think that in this business, overall, we compartmentalize because that's kind of how you do survive. Some of those tough stories when you're doing those doorknocks, those awful stories where a mother has just lost her child or just awful. I mean, the list goes on. And I think that we tap into a place where we get the facts and we do our darndest to deliver everything that we know and what information is going to help the public. And then I think what you do with that when you go home is really like the ultimate test there. So, for example, with the pandemic, the start of season two on the morning show when they were taking the drone image, my husband and I, he used to be in the news business, too. He was behind the scenes and we both looked at each other and I'm like, I don't want to watch this right now. I love this show. We loved it. And I'm like, I just can't watch it right now. For everyone in their right, that makes me feel so good because I said, what's wrong with me? I love this show. I know that. It's okay. We're here right now. We're okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Why don't I good grounding, Nicole.

Nicole Nalepa: Good grounding. I try, but yeah, I think it's just important to listen to what's not going to make you feel good in your own time, because that's your time, right. And that goes for any job, right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Totally.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know if any workplaces talk about it enough. Like, I know I only know my own experience in medicine, where you're working in the ICU and there's really sick people. You're giving awful news. People are dying. There's codes, and then you just go to lunch, and then you go to the next one. And then even within medicine, there's not a lot of room for, like, who you just witnessed a lot. How are you going to process if there isn't a lot of modeling or anyone kind of checking in? I think, and I hope that that culture is changing. But as I think about that, of course, as a psychiatrist, I'm always thinking about these things. I wonder about other fields and the news in particular. I can never watch the news because every time I turn it on, it's like, happy, happy shooting. Happy, happy fire. It's just like it catches me by surprise. So it's hard. And I just always wonder about when that's your job. That's just got to be hard. And I hope your field also emphasizes that, or is starting to.

Nicole Nalepa: I've been very blessed where I've worked for news directors who have checked in on us when we have covered horrific stories, offering support if anyone needs counseling. We've had even comfort dogs that have come in through. I wasn't here in Connecticut when the Newtown the Sandy Hook shootings happened, but I was at Springfield at the time, but I wasn't sent there. I was producing that newscast and anchoring, but I know my husband was sent there as a photographer to cover that. I also know that the photographers here at Channel Three, they were offered anything that they need, any kind of services, because, great, well enough, we don't even need to mention what that can do, right. For anyone who experienced it on any kind of end directly, indirectly. So that is definitely mental health is, I think, like you said, definitely something that's coming to the forefront more. I think the pandemic really opened it up for people who may not have realized that they've been affected by things.

Dr. Katrina Furey: We all that trauma, right?

Nicole Nalepa: Exactly. It was such a shared collective experience. So I think one of the things that I did to kind of ground myself, because it got to a point where all we were doing right, because everyone was home, nothing was going on. We were just reading the numbers, too, recording what was going on from that standpoint. So there you were, right, like, in the ICU and the medical front of things, seeing the people die, and then we're getting the numbers to report it. So we were, like, both working from different angles, which is crazy when you think about it, right. But we were informing people and helping people in a way. And just with all the heaviness, just that these kinds of things bring, I wanted to create something positive. So I created this segment at the time that was born out of the pandemic called the bright spot. It was all about trying to focus on, okay, let's take a moment now and see what good is going on. This is awful, but what is going on? What good is happening? Anything from the little kids doing these drives or sending messages to the healthcare workers? Everything. There were so many amazing stories, so that kind of helped ground me, too. At least that hard news time as well. And that was like my little baby. And every day I worked really hard to turn out the best positive stories that I could find here in the States. So that was really cool. I hope I'm answering your questions.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Definitely. And I think that's so important that, again, it reminds me of the Mr. Rogers quote that, you know, in times of suffering, look for the helpers. Even when things are atrocious, you can find a glimmer somewhere. It can be harder at certain times than other times. But if you can try to find that and hold on to it without forgetting what's going on right. Without repressing that or ignoring it. But you need that as a human to kind of soldier on.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, absolutely.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And we see kind of a tragic way in which Hannah from season one was not given help and her helper ended up being harmful. But I thought it was beautiful. In season three, in one moment, they all kind of got together and were, like, meeting in the and I was like, oh, why? And then they were all kind of sharing a moment of tribute to Hannah. And I was, you know, that family kind of aspect of being a team in the newsroom, the all of the people who were kind of connected with her. I thought that was just like a really nice moment that they kind of continued to bring her story through season three.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I was really glad they showed that. And I think, too, with season three, as we sort of transition into talking about that with Nicole. I didn't love season three, I'll be honest, as much as the first two. And I kind of felt like the plot was really similar to succession with the big, rich, fancy tech guy coming in and then all the shenanigans with the shareholders and the board meetings and all the stuff I don't understand. Still great. Love it. But I thought it really spoke to the importance of the news being neutral and for people being able to trust and rely on the news to get their information and how that is something I think, even with all the discourse about TikTok and what's shown on TikTok versus what's shown on your TV. And how do you figure out who to trust and what happens when Elon Musk buys you know, this tech giant buys the news? It really got me thinking. Really? I hadn't really thought about that in any great detail. So it was really interesting commentary on all of that this season.

Nicole Nalepa: I like seeing Don Draper.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

Nicole Nalepa: I love him.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Jen Aniston. I was like, they're just beautiful.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I really like the couple like themselves. I was like, they are a good match.

Nicole Nalepa: I know. I love to see them. Wow.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, it was great. Like casting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, for sure.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So what do you think about because they talked a lot about streaming in season two and three. As right is really on streaming. He believes in it. He wants the streaming service for, like what's it been like for you guys? Kind of navigating having Instagram TikTok even like Facebook. I do follow WFSB. I really quickly love you and Scott Haney. My mom's very excited today that I'm talking to know it's just been a huge shift with news, and I think you guys do a great job. But I imagine the transition after transition, first with COVID like filming at home wearing masks, like having visors up and then having to do more reels, how I think of them on social media.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What'S that been like for you guys.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: As it compares to the morning show or just in general?

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, I think in general, just with anything, technology changes things, and you got to keep up with things. And as we saw Right in the morning show, how Corey kept pushing, we got to go to streaming, we got to go to UBS Plus. And he was upset, right. That they waited on that. I definitely think the pandemic, just generally speaking with this industry as a whole, we realize that we can do a heck of a lot more on our phones, right. We can stream live and report live from wherever we are. We have capabilities to do that. Like you said, social media, the Facebook live stories, that was huge, right? Doing all of those live stories. And it's so interesting to see this industry shift again. And it's exciting in the sense that we're keeping up with things. We definitely have our pulse on what's new, what's the latest, what's going to reach people, what's going to help people. It means that there's a lot less downtime, not like there was any downtime before. You go into work every day and it's a brand new day. That's what I loved about this industry. Unless if you're working on a special sweep story or something or like a feature story, it's not the same day after day after day, right. Every day is different. Every story is different than the day before, even if it's an update to a follow up to a story. So I think that this has helped continue the dialogue of stories. So when we have what's on air and then we switch to streaming, it's kind of keeping things going and the dialogue going on stories, and it's making sure that viewers know that, hey, we haven't forgotten about this. We're still asking those questions and we're still following up on it right now, so it's not as much of a to be continued dot, dot, dot. It's kind of like, all right, here's what's new. Here's what's happening now, and here's what's happening next. This is the latest that we have at this point in time, and we're busy doing that with all the streams and stuff. To answer your question, I think that it's giving people what they want. And when you think of all the younger generations, now most of them are getting news from their phone more often than not. So if you want to stay relevant and you want to put the important information out there that people need when they wake up in the morning, that's the way to do it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. That is a lot, though. It's like you're always on. Right. That was one thing this show really captures, is, like, whenever the news breaks, all right, it's time. We got to go figure it out, no matter what's going on.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah. I always say I feel like I'm always in transit, but I always had this personality before I got in this business, so I think I was attracted to that, and it was a great fit for me.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, a lot of adrenaline.

Nicole Nalepa: Yes. I always succeeded in chaos, always from a young age.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I get that.

Nicole Nalepa: So. Yeah, I like that. I like that adrenaline rush. I like being able to help deliver important stuff. And I think that there's such a huge responsibility that comes with that. Because like I was telling you before about the anchor voices and stuff, you have such a huge responsibility delivering certain stories to the people and in a way where you have to be an empathetic person if you really want to reach people. And if you're really feeling it, you just got to say it from the heart when you do it. You know what I mean? I almost, like, in a way, I wanted to reclaim that when I got in this business, too, because it's so hard. What am I trying to say? We grew up watching news anchors and stuff, and then Anchorman comes out, the movie. Right? Will ferrell love it. But it's like, I want I just want people to feel like we're just talking to them, and there's no ego. There's no coming up today. I don't want that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The anchor voice?

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, because people are letting you literally into their homes every day. You're part of their routine. And I have to be honest, I don't really think about that. Like, when we stare into the camera, I'm not thinking about how many people are on the other side of that lens. I'm literally just, like, talking like I would talk to my mom or to a friend hanging out with my coworkers. It's a very surreal experience, and I realize it's a very wild job to have, and one I guess I don't think as much about. Obviously, I know what I do. And I know it reaches people, but I don't think I understand the extent and how impactful it is. Sometimes until I see a viewer, like when I'm at the grocery store or someone, they'll be like, hey, Nicole. And I'm like, oh, hi. I don't know that person's name. And then I'm like, oh, wait, they probably watch on is like it's still a novelty, I guess, in a way, to me, it's also got to be.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like a skill to be able to talk to a camera like a robot cameras in such a personable way. Right. Even if there's a camera man or woman behind it, there's a human. So I feel like that's just a really interesting skill to have. And I wonder if you can comment at all about one thing that I think Portia and I were thinking might be similar between therapists and newscasters is you would tell us if we're wrong, but it seems like we see in the Morning show bradley can have a hard time. I mean, she does a good job, but you know her, right? And like, sometimes I think it seems like the network wants her to be more neutral or not talk about certain things or keep it here, don't go there. And I feel like as therapists, at least in our role, it's really important to maintain a sense of neutrality, especially when you're helping your patients navigate COVID or the 2020 election or the January 6 riots. How do you maintain that neutrality so they feel open to talk to you? That's different from what you do. But I wonder if you can comment at all about what that's like to comment on such charged things, and if the morning show your opinion about how they're portraying that.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, it is nice to see the extreme example of someone in this industry, what it would probably look like when struggling with that. You see that internal conflict play out outside. Even on her face, you can really see it. Whereas Alex has a better job at just holding things together.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Nicole Nalepa: I remember her saying, actually, like, I do something control. This is what I do really well.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like damage control or what?

Nicole Nalepa: This is what I'm meant to do. I'm great at doing damage control. She's good at reeling it in. So you see the two extremes. I think that at least what helps me in those situations. Because at the end of the day, we all have opinions on things, whether or not we make them vocal or not. But I think that just like any job, it's almost like we took this unofficial oath mentally to do this public service and acknowledge that there are going to be people who are on both sides of the aisle and a lot of people who are unsure too. And your job is to not do anything from where you're standing to move their point of view. You just have to stick to the.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Facts to the facts.

Nicole Nalepa: Exactly. I know I wouldn't want someone swaying me, trying to sway me one way if I'm turning on the television, and that's what those editorial shows are for. The news is so different. You just literally stick to the facts and also make sure that both sides are reflected in a story, which is also so important, too, because you have to get both sides of it. Even if someone isn't going to comment on the story, you have to let the viewers know that you tried to get their comment and they wouldn't return our calls. You might hear that in some news stories.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: There's a moment at the end of season three where Chip is, like, making this on air live after he's let Go statement about why Mark's, like, shouldn't buy the network and what the risks are and what I really liked. And again, it feels really relevant just to and this is how we fact check and we get the alert. We call the police officers in this random town. We get the statement from them, then.

Dr. Katrina Furey: We go there and then we fact.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Check on this way.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's like we do this whole.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Thing just to get the story, just to be able to promote it. And it's like, I think so many people for the show, the morning show, I never realized that the 40 people yes, it's a big show, all behind the scenes, doing all this work overnight, getting everything right and it's so important. I love that you said kind of taking that oath because, Katrina, like you were saying, we're all kind of in a position of power with our clients, with the viewers know it can go wrong really quick if you kind of know the relationship with your patient or with viewers. And season three just really felt like that was kind of a big message that they were trying to get, really.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And what happens when someone like Paul Marx, who has a proclivity, you could say, for abusing his power, is now being given a lot of power that could sway things in a major way? I thought that was just like an interesting commentary.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: What do you think about Hallmarks, like diagnostically? I mean, obviously we think he's attractive, but I guess there's everything.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it's pretty well known that I don't remember the statistic off the top of my head. I think it's pretty well known that when you're in such a high position of power, there is some degree of sociopathy. I don't mean that people in really high positions of power are out, like being serial killers, but there's some sense of stepping on someone else to get to where you want some sort of lust for power that comes from being able to get to those super high positions. Again, it's not everyone in the high position, right? But it's like a higher percentage of people in those uber high positions than the average person. There's some sense of that. And I feel like they could have gone a little more with him and made him a little more cutthroat, like kind of in the succession guess. I don't know if you watched Succession, Nicole, but that was a show we covered.

Nicole Nalepa: I watched like the first episode or two. I've been so awful finding time to watch shows lately. 14 month old, you have a lot of time.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I feel like they really went there with Logan Roy in a really cutthroat way, whereas Paul Marks was more mild. But you still got enough of that flavor. Like, when they talked about what happened with Stella at Stanford, it seems like he, I guess on paper did compensate her for her programming or whatever she had done. That's where it goes over my head a little, but like, clearly not like he knew it was going to be worth way more than he was offering her those sorts of things.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And that was the NDAs.

Dr. Katrina Furey: All the NDAs. Right. I think it did really just speak to that a little sociopathy, some narcissism, but again, more of like this covert way, would you say? Portia, like trying to portray himself as earthy and very charming. But he had that edge and we really saw that when he threatened Bradley near the end of season three and when she quit. Right. Like, he knew all this stuff. It was clear he was surveilling everyone. I think he was the one who leaked the photo of him and Alex. I think we never really got an answer.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It seems like that would be accurate.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I was trying to figure out, like, were Paul and Alex really connecting in a genuine way or was it like Alex met her match and it was like narcissists using each other to stay on top the whole time? I couldn't really tell. And then near the end, it really did feel like she was really like I think they did really genuinely care for each other.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. Because as much as they know, I think her kind of having to make that decision to ultimately betray him, even though he betrayed her, I think was really hard, because I think she had she almost felt it reminded me of. Like, I think Alex felt like he really saw her and she could be herself with him, which was like, this uber powerful woman with wanting to be more and maybe own a network and work really hard, and she's really smart, and she never got that opportunity from some of the past owners of UBA. And so I think she was really hurt by that. And it reminded me of Corey and Bradley's kind of like special, unique relationship where Bradley felt really seen by him and her authentic self. So I think it's almost like Alex was grieving, right, being able to who.

Dr. Katrina Furey: She thought he was rather than who he really was. Which I think a lot of people leaving a relationship with someone with narcissistic traits feel is they're grieving who they thought the person was rather than who they really are. Once they see who they really are, I do feel like, in general, I love Alex Levy, I love Jennifer Aniston. I love her. Just I don't think it's accurate that she wouldn't have been as narcissistic as she had been before. It doesn't just go away, unfortunately, for the most part.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah. I wonder if there's another character who could have brought that side out that we weren't seeing.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Yeah. It was just weird to me how for so much of the season, it seemed like quieter to me.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And it was very loud in season one and two.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. In a very big way. And again, I guess it is known that sometimes people with personality disorders peters out a little bit as they get older, but not all the and she's when I say get older, I mean more like elderly age, not.

Nicole Nalepa: Would you see as a personality disorder?

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think if I was diagnosing Alex Levy, I would, based on season one and two. Diagnose her with narcissistic personality disorder based on season three. I feel like we see more empathy than we've seen before. And so from like a mental health perspective, I don't know how accurate that is. Based on season one and two was, at least to me, very clearly NPD, like, in your face. I don't think that just goes away. But I think her as a character is very fascinating and I think they wanted her to have more of this arc. And she does, I guess, sort of at the end come in and save the day, which is great.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Which is also, though, like, self importance. She does get agreement from the other network and she talks to Laura. And I thought that was kind of just I don't know, I felt like, go women and everyone's working together. Yeah.

Nicole Nalepa: Girl power.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: But it's almost like, though, she is like the savior. So it could be maybe right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But it wasn't in like a icky.

Nicole Nalepa: No.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, I guess I felt like her narcissism was coming back out when she was like, in cahoots with Paul to start her own thing. But you saw how much she was grappling with how it was going to affect the 20,000 employees. And I don't think Alex Levy from season one or two cared about that. We saw her going to see Mitch in Italy kicking off those other people on their plane so she could get right. Like that level of narcissism in reality doesn't just go away. Whereas in season three, we really saw her really wrapped with guilt over going through this and then totally changing her mind when Maggie Brenner kind of reminded her like, Bradley was really there for you and she could really see that.

Nicole Nalepa: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So, again, love it as a show. I think as a criticism, I think, unfortunately, doesn't happen that way, although we always wish it could.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I have why we have a podcast.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, exactly. From a therapy point of view, could a traumatic event such as the pandemic, it seems like that was almost a turning point for where we saw her personality kind of shift a little bit. Right. She realized, like, she was so grateful to be living. She was so grateful that she was given another chance right at her job, and it opened up the way for more opportunities. Could that kind of water down that narcissism?

Dr. Katrina Furey: What do you think, Portia?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, I'm always optimistic and filled with joy, so I feel know at least even if we think about it mechanically, trauma impacts our brain. So structurally, it could have changed her brain. How she processes information at a time, especially like the length of the pandemic and then all of the other collective traumas after that. With everything that was going on, especially considering her job and reporting on it, maybe like I don't know if it would shift her. I think if someone is truly narcissistic, like no, it could change you, how you relate to things like you were hurt by X, Y, and Z happening. You might feel the physical sensations, the change in the worldviews, the other symptoms of PTSD, but at your core, I think it's still going to come back to you being selfish or just grandiose and kind of not looking out for others. A little bit of lacking empathy. But that's why I think it's like, maybe if we think of it as a spectrum, she has maybe a lot of the narcissistic traits, and she didn't really have narcissism, and then the trauma would more so be more likely to impact her.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think when we think about narcissistic personality disorder, right, when we think about personality development as a whole, we all need some healthy degree of narcissism to have confidence and self esteem and put yourself out there. But what balances that sense of self importance in the world? You probably see this with your children, as we see with many children. When you're younger, you're like little narcissist. The whole world revolves around you. Your parents hopefully cater to your every need, whatever you need that's met, like, at all other expenses that's developmentally appropriate. But then usually as you grow up, you start to appreciate that there's other people in the world too, and the way you relate to them. In psychology, we call it object relations is really important. And that is the part that gets kind of stunted in people who have narcissistic personality disorder, where they have a really hard time holding on to conflicting feelings about themselves and others, like being good and bad at the same time. They can't tolerate being bad at all. And really deep down, the core wound is they feel useless, they feel worthless, they feel really bad, but they can't tolerate it. So they have to project it out onto other people, put them down, put themselves up here to sort of maintain their own inner sense of goodness. They haven't learned how to see other people for who that other person really is and appreciate the complexities that that person's good and bad, and so am I, and we're all okay. They can't really do that, if that makes sense. And so I feel like in seasons one and two with Alex, we really saw that a lot, where it was her, everything is for her. Like the way she treats everyone, the way she treated Chip. Everyone's almost like, right, everyone's like a chess piece. You're moving around for your own agenda. And season three was so different, which great for her. I just think in my clinical experience, when someone's like that degree of narcissism, it doesn't shift that much, even a trauma. And again, maybe you always hold out hope, but I'm not sure. It's very hard to do therapy with people with narcissistic personality disorder.

Nicole Nalepa: So interesting. I just love listening to you guys talk. I love talking about psychology and getting in depth with feelings.

Dr. Katrina Furey: We like it too.

Nicole Nalepa: I love when you guys break it down, like, thanks.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So I want to be respectful of your time. There's so much more we could talk about, but did anything jump out to you, Nicole, about this season or the relationships, the dynamics that really spoke to you or resonated with you?

Nicole Nalepa: I think when you see the camaraderie like you were talking know, at the end there, you are a family, right? You're working with these people day in, day out, some people you're spending more time with than your own spouses. And you're also working through some horrific stories and traumatic situations and some really amazing joyous stories that you're celebrating with each other as well. So it's a very close knit community and I would say that it's a smaller business than you may think. There are a lot of people you never know who is going to advance on in the industry, which is why you should always be kind to everyone. Of course, that doesn't always happen, unfortunately. Let's be realistic, right? In life, there's always those who just struggle with that a little bit more. But I have found and I've witnessed and I've seen enough at this point where I've seen people who I may have known, who I've interned with. You never know, you might find yourself working with that person, which is great. But with that said, people will always remember how you make them feel, always treat people with respect and be kind because that also does come back around too. And there are people that unfortunately, like in any industry and workplace, people hear someone knows someone through someone else. So I think that that is like a huge theme to just never burn your bridges and just always be a kind person. At the end of the day, everyone's trying to do the best they can, and sometimes people struggle in other areas, but you just got to give everyone a little bit of grace yourself. Some grace, too. It's not an easy industry to work in, but if you love it, you can tell you want to stay in it.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It feels like you love it.

Nicole Nalepa: I do. Yeah, I do. I love helping people. So this kind of helps satisfy that need to reach people and help people. That's always been, like, something I've loved to do. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, we'll have to see what happens in season four. We have a lot of questions, like, what happens with the network? What happens with Bradley? Is Corey still attached to the network? There's so many places to go. We met his mom this season.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God.

Nicole Nalepa: Really?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Manipulative.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. What do you think of his mom, Portia?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I feel like, I don't know, like, borderline. I mean, manipulative and cruel. Maybe narcissistic.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like it's exactly who I would have thought his mom would be. Like. You could just sense, like, he brought Bradley there as, like, a buffer, which I think often people with personality disorders, especially narcissism, do better with a crowd because they want to put on a good show. Right. Whereas when you're one on one with them, that's often when you get their cruel side and the real them, like, children of people with personality disorders like this will often talk about no one knows the real them. There's, like, the persona everyone else sees as charismatic, gregarious, bubbly, kind person, and then there's the real one. So I felt like him even just bringing Bradley to me was, like, diagnostic. And then she was so cruel with what she said and it was this interesting dance of codependency needs him to fill this void and he's constantly trying to fill it for her, but then she rejects him when he fills it. Or especially if he has his own need that doesn't align with hers and doesn't keep her in the center of his world. And then she's mad at him for staying away, and it's like, of course he's staying away. Look what he gets when he comes around. I was just like, I'm so glad we met her. And she was spot on who I thought she'd be.

Nicole Nalepa: Definitely.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: A mix of both. I think we didn't get her enough. I want more from her. And I think, though, for sure, we talked about last season, sometimes he appeared manic, but then I was like, or is that just the industry? He's just like, yeah, I think you.

Nicole Nalepa: Got to be ready for anything.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You got to jazz yourself up. And, like, that scene with him and Bradley driving home in the car where she's trying to empathize with him, and he's shutting her out because he just can't go there. I think it's so painful, especially when it's your mother of all people, you still love them. And she's trying to say to him, like, cory, I care about you. And he's like, no, Bradley, we mutually use each other. And I was like, oh, there it is. There's his impaired object. Can't he's struggling too. And just real quick, before we wrap up, we got to talk about the Bradley and Hal and Laura Peterson of it all.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So she protects Hal. She's at the January 6 riots. She's filming. She gets, like, pepper sprayed her eye, hiding her identity. So she gets all this great footage, and then she sees her brother there, salting a police officer.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, of course, Hal.

Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Hal is someone who we would consider kind of diagnostically to be vulnerable to ideas, beliefs, cults. He's in recovery. He's kind of searching for hiding identity.

Dr. Katrina Furey: A purpose for connection, love for community. And just like they portrayed him all along, coming from the Deep South, I just was not surprised. He was yeah, yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So she released the and, like that the FBI investigates, and blah, blah, blah, and Corey protects her, and then Paul.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Threatens her, and it's just like, Laura.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Finds out, right, because she thinks that Bradley is cheating actually on her with Corey. Not anything like the.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, right. But then she finds out and so quickly washes her hands of Bradley. And I was like, I get it, especially with what we were talking about, how important journalistic integrity is, and it was something like that. But I also get that it was her brother. And it's like, I just feel like Bradley's always in this impossible situation. That's the role she's played in her family, it seems like the whole time, right? Like, they hearken back to when she told authorities about her dad, like, you know, killing the child and the drunk driving, and I just feel like she's always in this impossible position, and I just want to see her in therapy. In season four, I was so sad we didn't see her go to therapy.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I think Laura tried to get her to go.

Nicole Nalepa: Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Laura did.

Nicole Nalepa: She tried.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And that was, like, such a beautiful conversation about how to encourage someone you love to go to therapy. I was so hopeful. And then it was clear she didn't go. Yeah, she's not ready yet, but maybe.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: She ordered because she's walked right the last she's walking into the FBI with Alex as a support, not Laura, and with Hal. And then the season ends, and we'll see.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, we know. It's coming back for season four. I'm really excited. I do love the show. And we'll see where they go.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, thank you again, Nicole, for joining us today. Do you want to just share where people can maybe find you? Your podcast and stuff like that?

Nicole Nalepa: Sure. I'm on social media at Nicole Naleppatv. N-I-C-O-L-E-N-A-L-E-P-A-T-B-I also have my podcast Mommy Head unscripted. You can find on Apple and Spotify and wherever else you listen to your podcast. And I'm always looking to hear from moms to see what kind of issues and topics that they want covered, because, let's face it, we still have a lot we're discovering, I think, as moms in this era. So we got to keep the conversation going on that too.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Definitely. Well, thank you so much. This was such a joy and a treat. And you can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, and we'll catch you next time with a brand new episode.

Nicole Nalepa: Yes.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Thanks, everyone.

Dr. Katrina Furey: All right, bye.

Nicole Nalepa: Thank you.

Dr. Katrina Furey : This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergency s. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are joined by Dr. Devon Gimbel, a retired physician turned points travel consultant who guides us though the journey to India (hopefully in first class seats). As many of us travel this holiday week we hope to offer you some tips on better travel while we analyze these rich characters who find themselves in India at a "new and spectacular" retirement home. Aging, openness versus rigidity and grief are themes in this episode. We hope you enjoy!

For more information on our guest: Point Me To First Class

Website

TikTok

Instagram

Youtube Channel

Katrina Furey MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Katrina Furey MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast.

Devon Gimbel MD: Where two shrinks analyze the depiction of.

Katrina Furey MD: Mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Katrina Furey MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Katrina Furey MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Katrina Furey MD: And your DSM five, and enjoy. Welcome back to another super exciting episode of Analyze scripts because we have Devin Gimbal joining us. She is a double board certified physician and founder and owner of Point Me to First Class, a business that helps employed professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners with high personal and or business expenses earn tons of credit card points to travel the world in luxury. And if you're listening to this episode, you might be traveling because it is the week of know, the busiest travel week of the, you know, if you're not in luxury, maybe you'll learn some tips for next time. Devin believes that your expenses are your greatest asset if you know how to leverage them. And she's on a mission to change the face of first class travel and help thousands of women travel more, travel better, and travel often using credit card points. So super cool. Thank you, Devin, so much for joining us.

Devon Gimbel MD: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Katrina Furey MD: I first learned about Devin by joining her Facebook group, the point me to first class group, and I have started my points accumulation and journey. I haven't redeemed anything yet, but do you want to just give Portia a little update? I guess because, Portia, I don't think you're quite in the credit card points game the same way I'm trying to.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Enter a I'm a baby.

Katrina Furey MD: You're a baby. Okay. You're in your infancy.

Devon Gimbel MD: Yes, well, it's fine. Everybody starts started. I tell this story in my own communities where I for many years was terrified of credit cards. I didn't have a single credit card in my teens, my 20s, even into my late twenty s, I was very scared of credit cards. I'd always been told that they're dangerous, you can get into debt. And the whole situation around that really frightened me. And I had no money growing up, so I was like, well, I have no money to spend anyway. Get a credit card. I don't know. I'm going to pay it off. So I avoided credit cards for a really long time. And it was only after I had actually completely finished all my medical training, finished my residency, finished my fellowship, that I started to just educate myself about personal finance in general. Just how can I be responsible financially? How do I make that transition from being a forever student, a forever trainee, into having a grown up job and being able to make really responsible financial decisions around retirement and savings and all of these things that they don't teach you, right? That they don't teach us, at least not when I went through school. No one talks about any of that stuff. And I didn't have a personal, familial kind of background in education in that. So it was all personal education. And in learning just about basic personal finance, as one does, you go on the internet, you end up going down all these different rabbit holes, following all these different links. I started falling into these travel blogs and points blogs where people were talking about how you can responsibly and really strategically use credit cards to earn points and then redeem those points, or use them to fly domestically or internationally, use them for hotel stays, and that you could actually save a significant amount of money, not just $100 every few years, but a lot more than that. And I have had a lifelong love of travel, but not the first class travel budget to send myself to all of these places. And so it seemed like this perfect match between. Here's an opportunity, again, very strategically and responsibly to leverage the spend that I was doing anyway, to run my life and to run a business and all of these things, to turn that into an opportunity to travel without having to spend cash on it, so that I could actually use my disposable income towards other things, like paying down my student loans and saving for a house down payment and all of those things. And so that is really kind of the short story about what credit card points are and how they can actually really be used to enhance your travel and your life experience without compromising you financially.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I love that I'm like in my baby phase, but I will say I am very pro, of course, responsibly. But I'm always telling my mother in law and other people, like, stop using your debit card, the grocery store, use your credit card. You're going to get 3% cash back on that card. Difference of points. But I just think it's so funny, too, if you have the means, right to pay off the credit card, if you're using it almost as cash, it's such an unknown, I think. Wonderful resource to be able to use 100%.

Devon Gimbel MD: And you really hit the nail on the head that it really is a hobby to get into once you're already in a place in your life and in your finances where you are comfortable and able to pay off your credit card statements in full every month. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. The math doesn't math in terms of getting value out of doing this. But I think it's something that anyone can learn about. And then you can take baby steps into this hobby based on what your comfort level is, again, where you are financially. But to not even know about this as an option is one of the things that I'm trying to get rid of. I think in the personal finance world, there are a couple of things that I think people just really accept to be true nowadays. Like, most people would not just leave a lot of cash in a bag in their house, right. Maybe for safety reasons, but also because it's going to lose value over time. Right. You move up a step from that. Most people also wouldn't leave all of their liquid assets in a savings account in a bank, right. Because again, over time, with inflation, you're going to lose value on that money. That's why we have these different vehicles to allow our money to grow over time. Right. There's the stock market, there's real estate investing. There's traditional retirement accounts. There's all these options. And I think in the world of personal finance, it's now very accepted that we would want to take our money, our saved money, and allow it to do some heavy lifting and grow for us. Right. And I don't think yet the same conversation is being had around our expenses that, like you said, to pay things just with a debit card or just with cash. Of course, that's a very responsible thing to do. And if you can also leverage something like a cashback credit card or a points earning credit card responsibly, to me, that's the same thing as really leveraging your money to grow for you on your investment side.

Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, 100%.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And you might be able to go to India with your points exactly right.

Devon Gimbel MD: Places you can go to. But I think today we are going to talk about India in particular.

Katrina Furey MD: Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So, have you been, Devin?

Devon Gimbel MD: Yes, I have. And actually, I have been to India twice, and I've never actually been to India using points, because the two times that I went to India, the very first time was when I was in medical school. And we had not a long break, but we had sort of a traditional winter break in medical school around at the end of December. And I remember, I think it was my second year of medical school, they had given us this offer where whatever module we were learning, I think it was like female reproduction or something like that, where if we studied ahead or we took the test early, we could actually have an extra week of winter break. I can't remember exactly what it was. I just remember thinking like, yes, it.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Probably was female reproduction.

Katrina Furey MD: They're like, come on, let's hurry up. Let's get through this.

Devon Gimbel MD: We don't need to know that much about it, right? Let's take a subject that's vitally important that most medical schools ignore or don't pay very much attention to. Let's just cut that one short. Right? But I remember thinking like, well, yes, because if I can have an expanded break, this is going to be a great time for me to travel. And I had always loved travel and international travel. I had just done it on the most shoestring of shoestring budgets possible. And that was absolutely true in med school as well. I was on complete student loan support when I went to medical school, so I had a ton of disposable income, but I could make it work. And so I ended up having a three week winter break in my second year of medical school. And I knew I wanted to go to India. I'd never been before. And so I went to India by myself for three weeks, and it was absolutely amazing. But I flew the economy of economy classes and took trains and buses around, and it was amazing and incredible, but I didn't know anything about points in medical school. And actually, the second time I went was years later. I actually went in early 2016. So I had my first child, my son, at the end of 2015. And when he was around three months old, I was like, I need a break. I need a solo vacation. I need to be somewhere that's just not kind of the routine of having an infant at home because it's very, very challenging and stressful. And like I said, travel has always been a really important part of my life, and I didn't do a lot of travel. The whole know that I was pregnant with.

Katrina Furey MD: Sure.

Devon Gimbel MD: And so I went back to India. Actually, I took my mom because she had wanted to go and didn't really feel comfortable doing a lot of solo travel. So I was like, this is know, let's go to India together. I've been there before. We'll go to some places. I've been some new places. And I knew about credit card points at that time, but I had not yet really developed my redemption abilities, my ability to find really great flights using points. And so I remember this too because I had been out of training for a couple of years. And for me this was a huge splurge because we bought the tickets using cash. And it was the first time in my life I bought an international flight in premium economy, which was like such a huge upgrade to me compared to flying in economy for twelve or 15 hours. And it was way better than being in economy. And I still remember though, on the flight home there was still the traditional three seats together. And I always pick a window seat. I'm a window seat person and my mom had an aisle seat. And this really polite, nice Italian gentleman was in between us like the whole flight home. My mom and I are flying in premium economy. This is very nice Italian gentleman in between us. And I just remember distinctly remember thinking one day, like one day I will be able to take this type of flight in business class. And that is actually exactly what points have done for me. So that actually may have been the last time I flew a long haul international class in economy or premium economy because since then I have only used points to fly internationally. And being able to do that and like I said, really kind of developing my redemption skills, learning how to leverage those points to book business class internationally has changed my entire travel experience. Oh my God. The flight for me always used to be like the thing that you tolerate to get where you're going, right? The destination is the point. And ever since I learned how to use points now, actually the flight itself is part of the journey. It's actually an enjoyable part of the journey, which it never was for me for many, many years.

Katrina Furey MD: That's such a good, oh, nice, nice word choice, Portia. As we were starting this know, we started thinking about, okay, so what are our delusional goals for ourselves? And mine is that one day maybe we won't even need this if we get so good at using our credit card points. But mine is one day we'll get like one of those sponsors that's a lay flat airline. That's my dream is to lay in the lay flat airline. And I always say, like, I don't even have to go anywhere, just take me up, circle around and come on down.

Devon Gimbel MD: But I bet, I bet that just.

Katrina Furey MD: Makes that long haul so much better. And then you start your vacation feeling excited and good and not in back pain.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Absolutely.

Devon Gimbel MD: That has been a big thing for me. I'm not that old. I'm in my early 40s, but I have noticed even from when I used to do, I mean, these ridiculous long haul flights. When I was in my. Remember when I was in residency, there were two years in a row where I was joining projects that were happening in Vietnam. And I remember distinctly flying from Boston, where I was doing my residency, of course, in economy, to Vietnam, where between the time changes and stuff, it ends up being like two days later from the time you left to the time you land, being in Vietnam for three days, getting on the airplane, coming home and then coming, know for residency, like your rotation Monday morning. And I remember at that point in my life flying literally, like around the world in a week. It was a little tiring, but the jet lag didn't really hit me physically. It was a little uncomfortable. It wasn't that bad. But as I've gotten older, and I think especially just the physical toll of the work that I was doing, which was not as laborious as being like a surgeon, which I think is a very physically challenging medical profession to be in. I'm a pathologist, but literally sitting at a desk in the same stature for 8910 hours a day for years and years and years, my body now, especially if I'm sitting in a really cramped space for a prolonged period of time, my whole body just starts hurting. And I think a lot of people can probably relate to that experience. Certainly people who might have chronic medical conditions or other physical conditions with their bodies, it can be very hard to sit, especially in those shrinking airline seats that we have now that are smaller than I remember them being when I was in my do again, like a 1012, 14 hours flight, it can be really prohibitive to people physically. And so, yeah, being able to be in a business class seat where you actually have space, you can actually put your feet up, your legs up. It makes a world of difference. And I think one of the things that continues to shock me, even though I've been doing this now for so many years and really being able to leverage points and flying so many places myself, that what you end up paying out of pocket when you book a business class flight using points because you still have to pay some taxes or fees for the airline, that amount of money ends up still being so much less than the cost of an economy ticket. So the fact that using points you can fly, especially international business class, for significantly less than what I use, the deals I used to search for in economy, it still kind of boggles my mind. This is real and it's legal and it actually works.

Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. And again, you're accruing the points by just using the card smartly for your everyday expenses, which is just cool. It's like, why not get a benefit for living, I guess. Yeah.

Devon Gimbel MD: And to me, it's like solving a puzzle, which I think some of us really like that. Whether you really like word puzzles or number puzles or whatever the case may be, to me, the whole points game is how can I figure out how I can earn the highest number of points again for this money I'm spending already? I'm not talking about spending extra money, but we're all spending money to run our lives. And those of us who also happen to run businesses spend money to run our businesses. So it's the puzzle of how can I figure out how to earn as many points as I can for this money I'm already spending? And then I get to trade that in for something that's really amazing. It's just a fun puzzle to solve. And then the prizes, you save money and you get to travel and have these amazing travel experiences that, again, are things that I otherwise probably would not choose to know cash for the equivalent type of travel.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I'm just thinking of Sonny, our hotel manager in the best exotic Marigold hotel. If he maybe had used points, riGht? So he has this business, the he, because he paid for their airfare, right, to come down. It could have been paid with points. I'm sure it wasn't because he seems a little scattered. Katrina, do you want to intro?

Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. Great segue, Portia. So today we're going to be talking about the film the Best Exotic Mary Gold Hotel, which came out in 2011. It's a British comedy drama directed by John Madden with a screenplay written by Old Parker. And it was actually based on a book, the 2004 novel these Foolish Things by the novelist Deborah Magic. I'm probably not saying her name correctly, but it's a really fun movie. I hadn't seen it before, but I thought it was really fun. You see a great cast of British actors and actresses, like, every single wedd. I was like, oh, my God. Judy Dench, Maggie Smith, just all star cast of retirement age folks who seems like are kind of in a financial pinch for all their different reasons. One's daughters sort of like, invested all their retirement savings in a startup that didn't take off the ground. Another one's know died, leaving all this debt she had to pay. Know. Everyone has their different story, and so they all find themselves going to India to stay at the best exotic Marigold hotel. And then in, like, teeny tiny letters, it says, for the elderly and beautiful. And then of know, the whole point of the film, I think, is that they find themselves at this hotel, which isn't how it looks online. I think a lot of people traveling in Airbnbs these days kind of find themselves in that situation, and then they're totally in this culture shock, and you see how each of them copes with that and you see their stories play out. And it's a really interesting take on traveling, I think, internationally, and seeing how different personality types cope with the hiccups and the speed bumps and the unexpectedness that comes with traveling like that.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I'm just thinking of Jean. So that's the wife of Douglas, who's just really pessimistic the whole time.

Katrina Furey MD: Yes.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So probably not someone you'd want to travel with. Probably is choosing, I'm assuming, not to travel typically. But I thought when you're talking about first Class, right. She's so excited that she can afford a first know. I think she says turning right, she's.

Katrina Furey MD: Going to turn left, which is just.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Know she paid full price because she just came into some money, it sounds like. But I just was laughing kind of thinking about music points for this. But, ooh, she was rough to kind of watch. Just so negative.

Devon Gimbel MD: Yeah. I think this is a movie. I was telling Katrina earlier that I'm the type of person where if I find a movie that I like, I will very easily watch it. I mean, literally, like ten times, 100 times. Don't even ask my husband how many times I've seen this movie. Have it on in the background every other week. It's one of my favorite movies to travel with, to just load up onto my iPad and just watch little bits and pieces of. Because I know the story so well. And I think one of the things that, to me, I think there's so many interesting and compelling points of this movie and the different characters. But speaking specifically about that, one character that you're talking about is, I think that she is such sort of an archetype of what I consider to be the type of person who travel could really benefit, but they don't have any sort of ability to receive that, to be able to go into a place that is very different from what they're used to and to also use that experience to say what is for me here. Right. And I think about all of the different options that are available to us when we travel. And people, of course, have so many different types of preferences, like the places they like to go, the type of travel they really enjoy. And I think one of the things that resonates with me about this movie is that even though I had no background as a child growing up of traveling the world or people really educating me about the differences that the world holds and all of the different people that populate this world. Right. And all the amazing and rich cultures and histories that come from around the world. I think one of the things I've always loved the most about travel is going to places that don't seem familiar to me, that don't seem like a replica of where I grew up. And I actually grew up in Southern California. So that was kind of the center of my universe for the first 20 years of my life. That was what was my frame of reference. And so when I travel now, and even when I started traveling as a late teen and early in my. Never really drawn towards places that I think are sort of American peripheral. Exactly. And I think, I mean, is London amazing? I'm sure it is. I've never been there. Not more than for a. Again, you know, do Western countries know rich cultural histories? Yes, absolutely. And I was never that drawn to going to places that were going to be very similar to the States I was always really drawn to. There's so much more out there. And so I think that's one of the reasons that I love this movie, is because it shows so much about what some of those differences are. And I have such an affinity for that. Like the scene where they finally land. They take this long international flight, they finally land. And the ride that was supposed to pick them up from the airport to take them to their sort of retirement hotel community isn't there. So they all have to get on a local bus and take a local bus to this city. And the scene where there's just so much about that, honestly, that I love and can relate to where it's like, as I remember the very first time this happened to me, the very first country that I traveled in, lived in for a short period of know, way far outside of North America was actually Kenya. I lived there for a summer when I was in Undergrad. And they have these minibuses there, and I can't remember the name of them off the top of my head. I should have looked it up before we did this episode. But I can just so remember, like, literally this picture of me standing on the road waiting for one of these minibuses to come, and it pulls up. And I think this is such a North American way of looking at something where you look at a minibus and you can count the number of rows that are in it, and your head kind of does the calculation of, oh, okay, well, there are nine seats in this minibus. So you look at the line of people and you think, oh, the first nine people are going to get on. We're all going to sit in our little designated seat, and we're going to go on our way. And I remember the very first time the minibus came, and 32 of us get into the minibus, where it's like, you get in and the nine seats are full, and then it's like, yeah, well, there's more people, right? So let's make some room, let's squish. And then there's like a couple of little kids. They fit on our laps. That's great. Some people, the door of the little minivan isn't going to close all the way. And there's places where people can hang on. And it's the same thing with that scene where everybody piles on and there's all the stuff that's tied to it and then the driving. Right. I think this is one of the things that cracks me up so much about seeing, especially seeing North Americans when they travel outside of sort of North American or Western countries for the first time. And some of the things that work very differently. And seeing their reactions and driving is one of those things that in North America, we have a way that we drive, right. We love our lines, we love our rules, we love the stoplights, and everyone kind of knows what to expect. And that's not the way that driving is done in a lot of other countries. And it still works and it's very efficient. Right. So when they're in the bus and the buses are in the quote, unquote, wrong side of traffic to go around other buses. And there's two lanes that you see that are drawn on the road, but maybe there's five lanes worth of cars, and they all know how to navigate around each other. So it works, right? So this is efficient and it works. But you can see the reactions of very kind of traditionally North American or European people who are like, what the hell is going on? We're all going to die. This makes no sense. But it does make sense, right? And I think that's one of my favorite things about travel in general, is getting so far out of your comfort zone the way that you think things are supposed to work. Yeah. Maybe in one place that is how they work. Doesn't mean that's the best way for them to work.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right. I think we see an interesting comparison between Jean and Muriel. Comes in hot, like. And then she is able to really, you know, she's racist at quite the one you don't like to like at all. And I was like, no, right. I was like, no, Professor McConaughey, no.

Katrina Furey MD: What are you doing being so racist? And that was so interesting to me. And I think this film does such a good job. Exploring that through these different characters is like, I wouldn't have thought she'd be the one, given what we saw from her, to really open up her mind by the end and actually come to work at this hotel and work with the team and be really open even to the woman who was delivering her food. And I did not see that coming, that she would be the one to really open her mind based on those early depictions of her.

Devon Gimbel MD: Yeah. And I think that that's something that is a really good reminder for some of us. I think that when we travel, we're always going to be confronted with some challenges. At least that's been my experience. Right. Not everything always goes according to plan. Or sometimes you end up in a place where some things just don't make sense to you. Right. Or they really make you question, like, wait a minute, why are things done so differently here than what I was expecting? And why am I having a problem with that, if I am right? And to be able to have an example, and these are all obviously fictitious characters, but I think that example of seeing. Okay, so maybe you have an experience where you are not interested, right, in kind of opening up your mind to a different place or a different way of doing things. And at the same time, when you are willing to do that, I think that is one of the biggest impacts that travel can have on us. I think that for better or for worse, all of us, to a certain extent, we are a product of our environment, right? Like, we were all born somewhere, we were all raised somewhere. We were all sort of exposed to certain messages, whether they were implicit or explicit, coming from our families of origin, our communities of origin, our schools, as we. I don't know. This is a personal opinion of know. If you are educated in the public school system in North America, you're not exactly given a completely unbiased view of the world and of, you know, a lot of us carry around these things that we don't even realize that we were know about just how places are and how the world works. And when you travel, I think it's such an amazing opportunity to really confront those things sometimes for the first time, like what was I taught? Or what have I been told to believe about different places in the world or my place in the world, and to be able to confront that and then actually look around you and look at what you're seeing about, wait a minute, I'm in this place that, on the surface, doesn't make sense to me because it doesn't resemble where I came from. But what is actually true about this place, what is true about the way that people relate to one another, about the way that people love one another or take care of one another? And I think at a very basic level, to me, travel is really about experiencing that level of humanity wherever you are. Because I have never been to a place where people were not just genuinely humane. Do you know what I mean? I don't speak languages other than English, so that's my inability sometimes to communicate with people. But I think even when you go to somewhere where you have not educated yourself about how to speak the language of that area, you still have that opportunity to observe just how do people treat one another. And I think that there's just this conserved, again, humanity, no matter where you go in the world. And I think that when you're able to kind of see that and latch onto that, it can really help you to begin to understand that. Like, oh, wait a minute, maybe some ideas I had about this type of place or I had about this area of the world aren't actually that true or that relevant. The invitation to be able to kind of drop some of those preconceived notions, I think is one of the really powerful impacts that travel can have.

Katrina Furey MD: Right? If you're open to it, if you're like one of these characters who wants their boiled chicken and rice and their little cookies, and you're not open to trying the new food or the new drinks or sort of being open to the culture, then it's going to be really hard for you, like we see with Jean. But I think you are so right, Devin. And this film does such a great job of also depicting just such common experiences in humanity and how we all experience it, no matter what culture we're in or where we find ourselves, like grief, aging, love, loss, like all of that that we see depicted in this movie in such a beautiful way. And how even the crop of British characters, they don't know each other, so they're also getting to know each other, like making friends know at that stage of your life and how do you deal with it? And then we know, especially with Graham, who I just loved his seeing the way his sexuality affected his life in both of these cultures and how it was dealt with or not dealt with, and how he's coming to terms with that at this phase of his life and reuniting with his old partner and just how beautiful that was.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I think about travel and intent with travel. Right. I think even thinking about moving or traveling for a shorter time period, I like to remind clients that wherever you go, you take yourself with you. So keeping that in mind, just thinking of travel tips.

Devon Gimbel MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So if you are someone who's more anxious, it's like, okay, how can you do things in preparation for this trip to make you have a better experience? So maybe you have to plan more and you have some backup plans, or if this goes wrong, this is how I'll handle this. Or making sure you take your medications with you, extra if you're there for longer. So I think it's just like even trying to know yourself as a traveler can help prepare you. So it's like, Jean, I think maybe I'm leaping here, but seems like she doesn't have super great self awareness, and she also just doesn't want to be there. And it's not, like, a fun experience for her. It's like, oh, this is what we're left then. You know, if we see Evelyn, who is grieving, she had some significant negative stuff to deal with, with learning that there was all this debt, and it's like she is going there, taking herself and her grief and establish kind of a home, and it's like she feels more secure despite grief and other challenges versus just to handle travel, I guess I'm trying to say, yeah, she really.

Katrina Furey MD: Gets her feet on the ground. She gets her first job. Both her and Jean are dealing with financial catastrophe that led them into this situation, but they handle it so differently.

Devon Gimbel MD: Yeah. And I think one of the really fascinating things about travel, I think back on just different trips, I've taken, different types of experiences I've had, and especially when I was younger, so sort of the first couple of times, I really had an experience again to leave the United States and to visit places with very different histories and very different current situations than the United States. I think one of the things that I really noticed for myself was sort of this opportunity, like, the opportunity to hang on to what you know and the way that you're used to things being and whether or not you were going to let other places being different than what you were used to. Is that going to be an opportunity for me? To get really anxious for me to get really frustrated or for me to try to impose what I'm used to on a place that has no interest or no need to be what I want it to be? Or can I really kind of walk into this scenario and say, wait a minute, this place works very differently than what I am used to, and what can I do with that? What opportunity is here for me? And I really remember when I was in, I took an extended period of time off, I guess, at least for a traditional sort of educational pathway. I took about two years off in between being an undergrad and going to medical school. And even though I knew the whole time I was an undergrad, I wanted to go to medical school. I also knew that once I started, I probably wasn't going to have the opportunity to take a lot of breaks, right, to go around and travel around the world for an extended period of time until probably traditional retirement age. And so I deliberately took a couple of years off so that I could go and really kind of wander around the world. And I spent a couple of months living and traveling around Southeast Asia. And I just remember kind of the way of traveling then. It was, for me, a very nostalgic time. It was still kind of pre digital era, like the Internet existed, but everything was still dial up. There were Internet cafes, no one know, cell phones, where you could basically just walk around with Google translating Google Maps and all of these things. And it was very much more of a nomadic kind of time for travel. And I remember that we would just sort of make plans on the fly. You'd hear about a place that someone had just come back from that you hadn't planned on visiting. And it sounded amazing. It's like, maybe we should take a bus there overnight and go and stay in this place for two or three days and never kind of really knowing what to expect again. I consider myself very typically North American in my love of schedules. And if someone says that a flight is leaving at a certain time or a bus is leaving at a certain time, I'm standing there at that time thinking, okay, where's the bus? Where's the train? And just kind of learning how to be very flexible around concepts of things like time, that not everybody has this same worship of time and schedules as we do here in North America. And really kind of seeing, liKe, wait a. Like, I can come in here and get super frustrated that the way I thought something was going to unfold isn't the way that it's going to unfold. And sometimes I did right. I mean, I'm a human being. There were a lot of times I was frustrated or like, I don't know what's happening here. And at the same time, I remember coming home from that specific trip where I spent a couple of months traveling and living in different places in Southeast Asia. And I remember just thinking to myself, like, I have such a greater capacity to be flexible now. And that is one of the things that that trip really taught me, was just the benefit of letting go of that. And my experience was so much better when I finally was kind of able to embrace that invitation to just be more flexible, be a little bit less uptight about every single thing. And honestly, I don't know if I would have learned that in the same way, if I never had taken that trip, if I had stayed at home and worked a summer job like I normally did or something like that. I don't know that I would have gotten that same lesson.

Katrina Furey MD: Oh, that's such a good point. And I think a beautiful way of experiencing something we talk probably, Portia, you do too. A lot about in therapy with patients is knowing yourself and knowing what are your personality traits or quirks that are a positive and a know that rigidity, that planning, on the one hand, probably made you such a good pathologist and doctor and probably makes you so good at this credit card point stuff. But on the other hand, could be an impediment when you're traveling and you need to be more flexible. But what a great way to learn how to do that without also losing that other part of yourself that helps you in these other areas. And how can you marry those two elements of your personality and learn how to foster that skill, that cognitive flexibility?

Devon Gimbel MD: I think that's also reflected in the movie. You had kind of touched on the character Evelyn, where it wasn't actually her plan initially to go and live in this retirement hotel in India. And she did it, like you said, because her husband passes away, she's left with a lot of debt. And so it's not like she jumped in with both feet thinking, oh, this is going to be just an incredible experience. Yeah. And you see her and how adaptable she is. And I think especially for someone, again, I feel like one of the things that was kind of like, more a common message when I was growing up than it is now is just sort of like, you are the way you are. And especially the older you get, the less likely you are to be able to change and adapt. And I love seeing examples of people in their sixty s or seventy s whatever, doing these brand new things and adapting and then getting to a place where they're actually thriving even more right after that adaptation. And I think that's one of the reasons that I really love her character, is that at the end, when she's on the motorbike with Bill Nye's character, and they're just, like, driving through the streets of Jaipur, and she has really kind of undergone that adaptation. And I think that that's a really nice example for us to see. And I think, especially, again, to see that not in someone who's Five, I expect kids to be really adaptable and flexible, but to see that in an adult who can really kind of take on that unexpected challenge and then become. Yeah, exactly.

Katrina Furey MD: It's such a great depiction of that human capacity for resilience if you're open to it and you have those tools in you to be able to do right. And I'm sure her and Douglas kind of drew from each other's strengths. Right. Whereas Jean, Douglas's wife, just wasn't interested. She just wasn't. She wanted to go home, and that's her prerogative. But it was really interesting to see that. And I think as we're thinking about travel, I think some of what we're talking about can translate from international travel to getting in the car and going to see your in laws for Thanksgiving. Right. I think even something like that small can be stressful for a lot of people. Right? Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Picking up your stuff. I mean, family dynamics, just getting everything in the car, forgetting things. I think what's nice now, just to keep in mind, too, is that if you are going, know, I guess, like a couple days and you're not going into the middle of the forest, I guess, like we have Amazon or there's stores we can get, things know, we forget. But I think, you know, Katrina and I had talked about, and it's coming out later in more of our holiday season, just like setting boundaries for yourself, knowing your limits, having outs. And I think that can be applied, right. To travel for pleasure and just traveling maybe an hour away to see family or friends during this crazy busy time.

Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, it's normal to feel stressed, even if you're super excited. And if you're someone like me who gets such a dopamine hit and such a thrill from planning a trip, I feel like part of the fun for me with vacations is planning it and fantasizing about it and thinking about all the different options. I love to do that. Even if once we get there we don't follow the itinerary. We just do whatever we want. But I still love it. I don't know, I just love that part of it. I think because I am such a planner that it just does something for me. But, yeah, even traveling more closer to home, you can use some of those tips.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So I think we were kind of laughing about even just our own travel experiences. So I, for the first time ever, I'm a very anxious traveler. I'm very interested in going places. I'd like to be open to them, but I had never gone to Europe or anything. Like, I went to Hawaii, but nothing else. Like off the continental us. Only last summer I went to Italy and Greece and ended up at a wedding. So that's kind of why we went. And I was laughing when you were talking about the driving because especially in Greece, we're going like 90 miles an hour. Our luggage is like tied to the top and we couldn't figure out how to get a cab. It was just like chaos, and we were all grinning. I had a great time, but even just noticing where my anxiety would kind of peak or where I was very surprised and proud of myself for managing. Well, I will say that I did walk away with more confidence. So I do feel like I can do it again, but I think it's just like taking that first step and doing it and maybe starting with a more similar place, at least if you're like me, is really helpful in building confidence to now go to Europe, to now know that I can manage my way through. So, but something that I was laughing also about in the movie and I wanted to just bring up, is there a little quick depiction of them all going to the bathroom, like many times after starting just like, to eating the food, I think that's something that is, I guess I'd say common, right. With traveling. Like, we get used to where we are, our guts, and so when we introduce something new, it doesn't mean it's bad or unsafe. It's just like different and different. Our bellies are a little slower to adapt.

Devon Gimbel MD: Yeah, I think, again, especially if you're going to be traveling internationally to a lot of different places, something is oftentimes bound to happen. I'm pretty careful in terms of drinking water. I think when you're traveling internationally, I think it's always a good idea to drink bottled water just because that's usually kind of like the most reliable source. But with food, I've seen so many things happen. I've seen people get sick eating at, quote, unquote really high end restaurants, I've seen people get upset stomachs from eating things that they can pick up at street markets and street carts, which is, like, amazing food oftentimes. And so I think, yes, if you go in there, I think one of the things for me, again, just having had the experience of traveling to a lot of different places and doing a lot of it solo, but then sometimes also traveling with other people, so having that ability to kind of just see their experience, and when it's very different from mine being like, oh, I wonder what's happening here? Why are we having such a different, either physical or emotional experience to the same thing that's happening here? And I think, again, a lot of it comes down to expectation, right? Like, if you have an expectation that things are going to work for you exactly the same way that they do when you're home, then maybe you are going to be disappointed, or maybe you're going to be in a situation where when that doesn't happen, you have a little bit less capacity to kind of manage that and deal with it, because ultimately, like I said, things are going to come up. And I think when you walk into an international travel situation, or like you guys were saying, even a domestic travel situation, and you're at least open to the possibility, like, oh, something may not go exactly the way that I thought it would, knowing that almost all the time, there is a solution to that, right. Even if it's uncomfortable for a couple of hours over a couple of days, oftentimes there is a solution, and it's really not going to be something that has just horrible impact on your life.

Katrina Furey MD: Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, that's a good point. And I think another flight, there's another car service, there's another time you can.

Katrina Furey MD: Talk 100% and just preparing for that. Like you said, framing your expectations appropriately and knowing if you're someone who runs on the more anxious side or more rigid or controlled side, maybe work on that ahead of time and just say, like, okay, so what are my expectations for this trip? Or I talk about this a lot in therapy. Even with planning a birthday party for your child, if you're someone who's more perfectionistic, like, okay, so these are my expectations. Let's drop it down by half and see what does that feel like to settle in with? Or how will I sort of cope with the bumps in the road that come along and to just normalize, like, that's totally normal. To feel stressed or anxious in a new place or by unexpected events or things going wrong, that's normal for you to have those feelings. So how can you cope with it in the moment? And talking about that.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, that's a good idea to our listeners. If any of you need some extra support during this time, maybe you should talk about it.

Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: With a friend, know, a professional. But traveling, I think it's like, it can be the best and the most is, like, those often come together and can be both. And I do really love and wanted to point out Devin's use of and frequently.

Devon Gimbel MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, we're holding two things at the same time. So this could be very and different, very dialectical.

Katrina Furey MD: It's very good. Yeah.

Devon Gimbel MD: Well, I had mentioned this to Katrina, but I do happen to be married to a psychiatrist, so while I do not profess to have any psychiatric skills whatsoever, I do think by osmosis, the fact that I've been around him now for 20 years, throughout all of his psychiatric medical training, and just the benefit of hearing somebody who is very skilled and very educated and very wise in terms of language and how we approach situations, I think some of that has probably rubbed off on me just, like, a tiny, tiny little bit.

Katrina Furey MD: That's great.

Devon Gimbel MD: Yeah, I love that.

Katrina Furey MD: So great. I mean, I think a theme that I'm hearing as I'm analyzing our conversation in real time is the importance. Knowing yourself, your strengths, maybe your weaknesses, how they bump up against each other, knowing what kind of boundaries you might have for yourself. Like Portia, you were saying? Maybe you want to be someone who is a really adventurous traveler.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Great.

Katrina Furey MD: But maybe let's start a little smaller. Maybe go with a partner you trust to sort of have that almost, like exposure to international travel to boost your confidence and then go somewhere more adventurous the next time and kind of build on it and just learning how to use positive coping skills in these moments when things happen that are unexpected, everything from deep breathing, grounding techniques, meditative techniques, to. If you're someone who needs medication to fly, like propranolol or something like that, to manage your anxiety. Great. Make sure you bring it with you. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I think just, like, touching back to the movie a little bit, we see the capacity in all the characters to change, and I think, right, like most people, everyone, maybe that's a little too generous, but does have the capacity. But it's like, are you seeking that out? Do you want it? Do you know that you can't have it? And I think that's where it's know, I think that Jean can have the capacity to travel and do things, but it sounds like at that, like she didn't want to, but I'm sure she can. And now she's going to have a lovely time flying home in first class and it'll be a magical experience for her. So we got to figure out, I guess, what works for us. But I loved the movie I had never seen.

Katrina Furey MD: I did, too.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It was and beautiful and touched on loss and grief and aging and being told you can't do something and doing it anyway. The message is just wonderful. So if you haven't watched it, please do.

Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, highly recommend it.

Devon Gimbel MD: Agree. And I think it just really also beautifully highlights India and the specific city in India, Jaipur, which is just such an amazing and vibrant and incredible place. And I love that you actually get to see little bits and pieces of that in the movie as well. So even if maybe you aren't thinking of actually taking a trip anywhere in the near future, but you kind of want to live vicariously through a movie, I think this is a really wonderful movie to be able to get a glimpse of just really how rich and gorgeous another place, another culture is.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Oh, definitely. I love reading and watching things about India. I've read the perfumist.

Devon Gimbel MD: It's a good book.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It's about like a woman in the early 19 hundreds who lives in England, but goes back to become this wonderful perfumist that all these major beauty brands want at the time. And she spends a lot of time back in her roots in India. And of the flavors and colors and scents is so like, I could feel it reading movie. I'm actually getting right the visual of all the colors and scents.

Katrina Furey MD: Food.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I was like, oh, I really want. Can we get takeout this week? I'm really in the mood, so. Oh, it was just wonderful. Yeah, it was great. It's good to have you, too.

Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. And I think as we wrap up, one thing I did also love about this film is sometimes I think maybe even with traveling, I haven't done a lot of international travel, but I think this concept of cultural tourism is interesting. And I feel like in this film it could have gone that way. They could have gotten all these elderly folks on a van and gone to all the major sites and stuff, but they didn't. It's like they really, whether they wanted to or not, kind of got immersed in the culture they were in. And you saw how some of them, like Evelyn, wanted to immerse and really live in it. Sometimes they would drive and she'd be like, no, I'm going to walk or I'm going to do this. And I just think that's an interesting way to think about it, rather than just like, plopping in and taking everything from the culture, really trying to make it more of like a two way dynamic. I would imagine it just makes it all the richer all across the board.

Devon Gimbel MD: Yeah, I agree. And I mean, that's a topic, honestly, there could be hours and hours of conversation about that. But I agree, especially in countries that have a history, a very strong history, right. Of colonialism, of very imbalanced power structures. And when you are someone who maybe is North American by descent or European by descent, being very mindful of those histories and thinking about, yes, I think it is important to go out and experience the world, and also how can we do it in a way that is less extractive, that is less about our going to place and what do we get out of it? Because I think that is honestly something that those of us who are North American, we are just implicitly raised with that kind of behavior. And I think that we have an opportunity to really be mindful and deliberate about when we want to go out and we want to expand our own experiences in this world. How can we do that in a way that is incredibly respectful of the places that we're going, that also gives back right to those communities that isn't just completely extractive by nature. And I think that that is a topic that deserves, again, I mean, so, but starting from that place of really saying, like you said, what is it like to actually be immersed in a place versus just kind of landing there and then just kind of like picking and choosing what is it that's going to be useful for me. And I think, especially now, one of the things that I really appreciate about travel, when I think about it now, compared to travel that I experienced ten years ago, 20 years ago, is I do think there are more conversations about how can we be responsible in the ways that we travel. Right. How can we be more respectful in the ways that we travel. And I think that those are important conversations to continue to develop and to have with ourselves when we are going to go somewhere, before we make our plans, before we decide what are we going to do when we get to this place is kind of incorporating some of those questions into our travel planning.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I'm really happy we are touching on that and kind of landing there. Just kind of thinking of your future travels and where you might be going, and how can you protect everyone as you travel yourself? Of course. But how can you, even if we think about making sure you're cleaning up after yourself, you're you're not leaving yourself.

Katrina Furey MD: You're.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: You're going as a right and being respectful. And I like that tone with where we're kind of leaving it.

Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, Devin, thank you so much for joining us. This was so fun. I feel like a little starstruck because, like, trying to get into the points game. So this is so cool to talk to an expert and I think like another woman who's used her skill set and now translated it into something totally different and fun. I just so admire it. So I'm so thrilled you were able to join us. I so appreciate it. I hope you had as much fun as we did. And why don't you just let everyone know where they can find you if they want to learn more about the points game and learn more about you?

Devon Gimbel MD: Yeah, absolutely. First, thank you so much for having me. I love the way that you all do your show, the idea for it. It's so fun for me to have the invitation to come here and to talk about travel in a little bit of a different way than I normally do. So I really appreciate the invitation. I've loved our conversation today. And yeah, for anybody who kind of wants to find out more about the points world, the work I do, you can find me at my website. It's just pointmetofirstclass.com. I also have a podcast of the exact same name. Point me to first class. That's where I talk about all sorts of different topics and issues around earning points and using points and just the point of points travel. So you can find me in either one of those places. And just thank you so much again for having me here today.

Katrina Furey MD: Well, thank you all so much. And you can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram and TikTok. We are starting to release video podcasts, so if you're listening to this, please check out our YouTube channel for the video version and we will see you next Monday and hope that your travels this week and in the future go well, as well as they can and that you sort of coast along with the road.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Thanks, guys. Take care. Bye.

Katrina Furey MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for enter attainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are taking a deep dive into the newest season of the longtime Emmy winning show, American Horror Story. This season, Delicate, depicts a women, Anna Victoria, played by Emma Roberts, who is undergoing fertility issues. Anna is a famous actor who receives in vitro fertization (IVF) with all the spooky and horror elements that are associated with the show. Listen to our take on Kim Kardashian's performance and the accuracy of their depiction of IVF. Dr. Furey takes this lead in this episode with her expertise in pregnancy, IVF and postpartum care. We hope you enjoy!

Youtube Video

Instagram

TikTok

Website

CNN article on new postpartum drug

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And this is analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And your DSM five, and enjoy. Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts, the podcast. We are so excited you're joining us for our second YouTube episode. That's right. If you are just listening, you could also watch us on YouTube. Please don't do it while driving, but otherwise, please head on over to Analyze Scripts podcast. Today we are talking about the latest installment of American Horror Story, Delicate. We're going to talk about Part one. Part two is set to come out in early 2024, but I am really excited to talk about this episode. What did you think? Portia, I know you're not super into spooky things. I was really impressed that you watched this just right off the bat. What are your thoughts?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I thought it was intense in the way, I think, because as a woman who goes to the gyn and who potentially will or will not experience the birthing process or the pregnancy process, I felt like it was a little traumatizing. But in a way that I want to hopefully be clear. And I think you can do a.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Better job at this.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: But this is not a normal experience. This is in so many ways horrific. And there were so many moments that she was invalidated, and I thought that that was just, like, bad. I mean, in this whole experience, that's already really scary and sometimes daunting and can be painful just to add this obviously extra fictional layer to it. But it was hard to watch.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Totally. So if you've been living under a rock, American Horror Story is a series on FX that's been around for many years now. I think next Halloween, we're hoping to cover season one because that was a really good season. But it's a really cool show by Ryan Murphy where it's usually the same sort of crop of actors. And the story each season is know, there's been, like, the clown one, there's been like the murder house one. There's. Yeah, you know, so it's all really interesting. And so we see Emma Roberts as the star of this season, she's playing an actress, Anna Victoria Alcott. And the whole plot, to sum it up real quick, of this first part of the season, is she really wants to have a baby, and she's struggling to get pregnant. So we see her and her husband Dex, who previously had been married, and we believe his wife died that now at the end of part one, we're not really sure, but they're struggling to get pregnant, so they're going through the IVF process. At the same time, her career is taking off, she's campaigning for an Oscar, and we come to find out there's something afoot. There's some sort of evil plot at play in regards to her baby. We don't exactly know what it is yet, but we see some flashbacks to someone else agreeing to give their baby away to these people in weird black crow outfits to be able to have power or money or something that they want. And it seems like this is going that way. Like, how much do you want a baby? How much do you want an Oscar? Right, right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: It's like this cabal that's been around for centuries, apparently. And I don't know. I think obviously, we're missing so much that I hope we get from season two. But I have so many questions. Right? Like, is the husband involved? Is he not? Is the know Kim Kardashian? Yep. Siobhan. Is she involved? It seems like she is with those little supplements that look like blood. Obviously the Doctor is involved. But I have so many questions that I'm excited to hopefully get answered, even though it will be. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: In part two, I think my biggest question is, why is Kim Kardashian playing? Like, why? It was so Portia. I'm sorry. Like, I thought Kim Kardashian did a pretty good job on SNL. I'm not going to lie. I was like, well, she was kind of funny, but in this, I was just, like, cringe.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I think it's because.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I also.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Don'T know if it would matter if she was better at acting because she's still Kim Kardashian, which is like, I think her being and persona and aura is just so powerful. And she was playing somewhat of a similar person, so it wasn't this crazy stretch. But I think it's just so hard because we know her from 20 years of reality TV that I can't see past that. So regardless, even if she was, I don't know. I can't tell. Is it poor acting or is it just like, I can't see her in another way.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think it's both acting, but also why her? I've got to imagine there's so many good actresses out there that could have done a great job in the role. And it's not like American Horror Story has been doing badly as far as I know. Maybe the ratings have been down. I don't think they've been down that much. Why? I just feel like it's to use her for her following and to get eyeballs on the screen. But it honestly annoyed me. I would say of all the stuff we've watched so far, I felt like this was the worst, just in terms of. I didn't like it that, like, in terms of the acting and stuff like that and the storyline, I liked all the mental health themes. I'm excited to talk about them, but I was just, like, even Emma Roberts acting I didn't think was great. I don't.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I mean, I just didn't love it. And I don't know if that's because it's not my favorite genre, but I finished the episode last night, and I started it when it came out. It's been difficult to kind of get through the episodes. I love Emma in other shows, so I don't know, it just kind of fell flat and for a couple of reasons. But I did watch the last episode in which I think it's the last one where she eats the raccoon, and I was literally, like, going to throw up. I couldn't look at it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: That took me by surprise. Yeah, same with me. It was like. And the episodes weren't that long, so you could just think you'd, like, plow through them, right? Like, morning show succession. You. I am like, can't wait to watch the next one. But this one, I was, ugh. And I just think it's because Kim Kardashian was not very sorry.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: She wasn't.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: She wasn't. I'm sorry. And I get a little angry that she gets all these opportunities when there's probably so many good actresses out there dying for an opportunity. Like, it just.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I feel morally opposed to it. I wonder if it was for shock value. You know what mean? Like, there's been a lot of bad feedback about it, and I think they've had to have known that even, like, she auditioned or in the acting and, like, Kim, you're great at a lot of things, and maybe this just thing isn't for you. Good for you for trying. I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: She had such so much dialogue. I really thought she'd be in it, but, like, peripherally. And she was really in it, trying to act, and I was like, I don't know if we need that much.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Something that I'm wondering, too, is that this whole thing came out while the sagstrike was. Is going on. So I think that's also interesting because I didn't see any promotions for it from Kim or anyone else. And I just thought that there's been other bigger hits that have still done well despite not having the actors. And so I just. I don't.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Let's.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Let's get into the mental health theme. We both didn't give it five stars.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It's on our face. Okay.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: But there's a ton of mental health themes, I think, as it relates to IVF and the journey to motherhood and just being a woman. I think. So before I dive in, I want to hear about your perspective, Korsia.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I would say that I felt like they did a good job at portraying just, like, the emotions related to having a miscarriage or the difficulties with getting pregnant and the stress that accompanies that. And ultimately, the loss is different for everyone. I think it's unique to the woman carrying the pregnancy initially and then potentially losing it or carrying a full to term. So I thought that Emma was able to portray that well. I think she is a mom, so I think that she probably kind of pulled on some of her experiences through that process. What's scary, what's exciting, the ups and the downs. So I liked that aspect. I thought that was pretty realistic, maybe. And, like, going to a clinic.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, going to a separate place to receive the IVF procedures. I didn't love the red. Right. Red gloves, red walls. It was like all, like, first of all, why would you ever have a Red Glove? Obviously, they did it in the movie for a reason. But is there blood on it or not?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Do you think the red is for visual effect with the movie? The vitamins were red. No, they're not. I think that's all just for visual effect and very in line with the AHS genre, I would say. But certainly that theme of red and even the progesterone that she was supposed to take, I believe that's what it was that she had to keep in the fridge, came in these glass vials, and it's like, that's not what it looks like. Right. But whatever. It's for visual effect, so I get it. But, like, the vitamins that Siobhan gave her, that look like blood, that's obviously not B. Twelve. And also, why are you relying on Siobhan to know if this is safe in pregnancy? Just call your OBGYN. I mean, it turns out this guy is involved, so you shouldn't trust him. But in general, I was like, okay, I think that it's really important to point out that, and this is like one of those things that goes without saying, and yet we need to keep saying it, that IVF is incredibly stressful under the best of circumstances and capital T trauma in many circumstances. I'm not even going to say in the worst circumstances because I think it just is traumatic. Quite literally, it's very invasive in your body. It's very stressful emotionally. I think upwards of 40% of women going through IVF experience a mental health condition, mostly depression and anxiety. But I also see PTSD and I see OCD happen a lot around IVF. And that makes sense, right? I mean, because it is, like, traumatic to lose a baby, to have a miscarriage, to have a stillbirth. It's very stressful to always be in that cycle of uncertainty and waiting. Waiting to get your period, waiting to not get your period, waiting to take the pregnancy test, waiting to ovulate, tracking everything. I mean, it's just so unbelievably stressful and can be really all consuming. And you can see how it can lead to things like PTSD, how it can lead to OCD after the fact. Right? Because it's normalized to check the pregnancy test, check the ovulation strips, check this, check that, and then when the baby's here, you don't want to lose it. So you're still checking. I see some women weigh their baby obsessively, or sort of, like, obsessively track the baby's eating, peeing, pooping, like those sort of things. It's hard to let go of that and feel secure. So it's incredibly stressful. And I did really appreciate, even though I didn't love it as a viewer, I really appreciated this being on our screens in such a big way. Right. Like, just a woman going through IVF and just showing how stressful. I really appreciated.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I think it's important to highlight because it's common. Having a miscarriage is wildly common. Having infertility issues is common. I think one of the biggest. What would I say, like, supports or positive reinforcers of this experience is having a support system, which I feel like she didn't have.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Her husband.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Her husband got worse over the season with, just, like, me being really suspicious of what was actually going on. Especially within the last episode with the conversation with his mom and her kind of coming in. So I initially kind of liked him and then I was like, what is.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: She's like, Anna Victoria has been targeted. I feel like there was this evil plot all along and they're choosing her because she's like this famous actress to somehow have this baby. They're going to make a black crow or something weird and evil. But I didn't find her husband to be that great.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: No. And I think it's hard because I guess you could look at it from two sides. All the stuff that's happening to her from just a black and white on paper perspective seems a little outlandish. Or all of a sudden all this stuff is happening. So it's like, as her paranoia is growing, but it's like you either believe her or you don't. And if you believe her, you're in on the plot that something nefarious is going on and all of this is happening and it's real and she needs to be protected at all costs. And if you don't believe her, she's going crazy. Right? She is, but you're dismissing her and invalidating her and making things worse. Can you maybe speak to, does this happen within pregnancy or IVF due to.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: The hormones and stuff?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, do people become paranoid? How does this play out in real life?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So, no, I was so annoyed. But yet I think it's actually a good depiction because I feel like people say this to women overall. Like, oh, it's your hormones. Even like PMS. Right. We just so invalidate women's experience by chalking it up to hormones. And yet at the same time, it's like, okay, you're not acknowledging, like, yeah, these hormones actually do have an effect. So help me out here. Which is so infuriating, but women are most likely to experience a mental health situation or a mental health challenge during their childbearing years. And why is that? We know that in men, they're most likely to have their first episode, whether it's depression, bipolar disorder, psychosis in their late teens to their 20s. For women, it's a little later. It's like twenty s to thirty s, which is right around the time of childbearing. So it's like, okay. We sort of, in part, think that it's because that just happens to be the time we see first episodes. But we also know, and we're starting to. The medical field in general, is starting to have better understanding that there is something to the hormonal fluctuations. So if you've experienced a mental health condition before getting pregnant. Anything from depression, anxiety, trauma, OCD, psychosis, substance use. Your risk of experiencing it around the time of having children is higher than if you haven't experienced any mental health conditions beforehand. But even if you haven't experienced any mental health conditions beforehand, you're at highest risk over the course of your life during this time period. And we know postpartum depression is incredibly common. One in seven women and one in ten dads experience postpartum depression. The dad's hormones aren't changing. Okay? So there's just a lot of stress that goes into having children. We know that most cases of postpartum depression, if you trace it back, actually start during pregnancy. I think it's like 60% of cases start during pregnancy. The remaining 40% really show up after having the baby, but it's usually not picked up till after having the baby. And unfortunately, 75% of women who screen positive for postpartum depression don't end up accessing treatment, which is awful and way lower than the rates of treatment access for depression outside of pregnancy.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So why is that? I imagine that there's multiple reasons, but.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think there's a lot of reasons, and I don't think we know exactly why. I think that a, there's not good mental health resources in general. We've talked about that a lot. It's really hard to access care, period. And then I think once you've had a baby, when do you have time to go on Psychologytoday.com and look for a therapist and make all the calls and wait for them to hear back and schedule the appointment? When you have a newborn, it's just so hard. And I think there's a lot of shame and stigma. Right. I think in general, there's a lot of shame and stigma about living with a mental health condition that keeps people from reaching out for help. And then I think, especially when you've had a baby, you're thinking like, this is supposed to be the best time of my whole life. I don't want to talk about this. Right. I think a lot of women, especially when you're having intrusive thoughts of harm coming to your baby, which is really common with anxiety and OCD, a lot of women will feel worried. LiKe, if they're doing the dishes and they see a knife, they'll think, like, oh, my God, what if somehow my baby gets stabbed? Or if they hear a noise, they think, oh, my God, it's an intruder. Or they might think, like, you might have an intrusive thought or flash of an image of, like, throwing your baby out the window. It's really scary to tell someone that if you don't know that this is a super common thing to happen after having a kid and that it's a sign of an underlying anxiety or OCD disorder, you might be afraid that they're going to take your baby, or you might be afraid that you have psychosis. You're losing your mind. So these are really hard things to talk about. And I think one thing I always tell my patients, and I hope that we can tell our listeners and just keep getting the message out there, is that these conditions are really common and they're treatable, and it's important that we improve access to treatment, because suicide is the number one cause of mortality the first year postpartum, and postpartum mental health conditions are the number one complication of pregnancy overall. So this is really important. And so in that way, I'm really happy that this is on our screen, even if Kim Kardashian is in it and the acting is so know I can tolerate it for that reason.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: True. Yeah. So I guess separating, like, write fiction or TV effect from reality, what did you see that was maybe does they did do a good job of this is a typical experience or something that did make sense, and what's something that's like, this is 100% wrong.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah. I think what I really liked about her character was I'm also imagining someone of her stature and fame going through IVF would be really nerve wracking. And when Preacher takes her picture at the clinic, she probably would be really terrified of that getting out there. That's her personal, private medical information. She's not going to want it to get out there. I would imagine as a famous person, that would be really accurate. We remember how when we were talking about suCcession, and we said, is it narcissism, or is it just growing up in this environment? I think for her, the same question came to my mind. Was the paranoia aspect, like, is she paranoid in developing a psychotic disorder, or is this her reality? And it is her reality. We see that, right? People are following her. They are trying to get her. It seems like they got her somehow. This is her reality, and we see her being invalidated over and over. And I do think as a woman navigating the health care system, unfortunately, we know this happens, and now there's all these studies out there that women and something even just like pain is constantly invalidated. Right. Like, we're all expected to go to work when we have awful menstrual cramps, it's like, well, just suck it up. And, I mean, we know now that these things affect certain members of the population even more so.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like, I'm thinking about racial disparities, socioeconomic disparities. We tend to get invalidated more, I think, near the end, the scenes with the physical therapist played by Cara. Right. Maybe it was.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: No, I don't think it was her.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: When they were doing the ultrasounds and stuff. Right. The transvaginal ultrasound, they did show a lot. Right? Like, they showed her in the stirrups. They showed. That is what the wand looks like for the ultrasound. It's not small, and it doesn't feel like it hurts. Under the best of circumstances, it's not pleasurable. And I thought they actually did a good job of showing that and showing how, unfortunately, with pregnancy and everything, it is very invasive, and they're not doing a good job of obtaining her consent beforehand and stopping when she says to stop. And I think, I hope that's not the average woman's experience, but I can't say I'd be surprised if I heard some of this stuff happened. Even thinking about things like, I don't know if you know what a membrane sweep is, but cervical exams toward the end of pregnancy to see how much you're dilated, you should always ask permission before you're doing an internal physical exam on anyone. And I think sometimes people just do it even if the woman doesn't want you to. So there's a lot, I think, especially in obstetrics, that needs to be improved and continues to be talked about. And it did highlight that I was really annoyed when they kept saying, like, oh, it's the hormones you're taking. That's what's causing all of this, because. Sure, I guess any medication like progesterone or anything else, theoretically, I'm sure there's someone out there who's experienced psychosis related to the medication. I would imagine it's incredibly rare. That's not a common side effect for most people. Progesterone is an anxiolytic, which means it calms you down. It shouldn't make you paranoid. I think if she weren't actually being followed and she was hallucinating or having paranoia, she probably is experiencing psychosis, which can be triggered by the hormonal shifts and usually is an underlying indication that the woman has bipolar disorder. So whenever we see psychosis development, pregnancy, or in the postpartum period, it's bipolar disorder until proven otherwise. You of course, would do the normal workup for psychosis. Check labs, check brain imaging. Just make sure there's nothing else going on. But usually, again, this is the first time a woman will experience it, and it is an indication they actually have a bipolar disorder. And it is worth mentioning that postpartum psychosis is a psychiatric emergency, and it's associated with a 5% risk of suicide, a 4% risk of infanticide. So it's pretty scary. And again, I think, important to note that when I am treating women who have these intrusive thoughts about harm coming to their baby, I always try to tell them, like, yes, it's distressing, but it's a good sign if you're feeling distressed by that, because that means you're more likely to have anxiety or OCD. It's when it's not distressing or it feels almost like an altruistic delusion, like, I have to kill my baby because Satan has inhabited their body kind of freedom. That is Psychosis. And what's, you know, you'll often see sleep, know they can't sleep. They're very restless. They're agitated. They'll have delusional beliefs, like what I just mentioned with the baby. Delusional beliefs and broad strokes are somewhat a fixed belief that other people in your culture don't share. But, like, you believe you're getting messages through the radio or through the TV or things like that, and then you can have hallucinations, which are seeing or hearing things that aren't really there. So, again, if Anna Victoria had been having the same symptoms she was having but not been being followed, she'd be psychotic. But this is actually right with the pictures.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: I mean, the pictures when she was looking at them. And then she saw Ivy in the background at one like that. Felt like it was a hallucination, but everything else was right. Like, she was seeing her. The doll, the mean, that was real. And then what's her name? Anna? Sonia. Or Adeline. Right? Like the artist or the deceased wife. That's who's bizarre. And then what we're following, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Like, a lipstick Ivy doing the ultrasound was real, but no one else knew she was. Like, all this is happening. And I think what helps us realize that it's reality is when Kumal, the driver. Sorry. Kumal sees. Right, like, when he was driving her, right. We see someone outside of her who can confirm, like, no, this is really happening.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So do you think that preacher is that woman that they showed in the flashback, in the think so, too. So she had to deal with it. And now she's trying to warn multiple people. So Anna Victoria and then Dexter's mom.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I was like, was the mom preacher's baby? Are we going to find out who that baby was? Has that baby become part of it? We don't really know.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: And what are the babies? Because they are like spiders.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: They're like something and stuff.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So do they turn into people or do they turn into things that can look like people?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: And is the husband.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Is Siobhan one? Or do they sacrifice them? And that's how they keep the wealth and fame. Right? Because at the last episode, we find out that Siobhan, when she's with that writer guy who she hates but is like, having sex with, he's like, why did you. Who are you? You made me do this movie. You made me cast Anna Victoria. And now it's like, up for Oscars. It was like a terrible script and she's a bad actress. And I was just like, I just want to know what, obviously, and hopefully we'll find out in part two. But what is happening?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: What is going. Yeah, exactly. Like, how are they all in on it? I think they're all in on. Think they're all, I think even, like, Nicolette, the house manager who just had a baby, I'm like, is her baby one of these crow, like, what's going, like, why are they all sacrificing their. Oh, it's just weird. And then also, when the younger actress died, got decapitated. Remember, like, Siobhan. Yes. Babet had called to be like, how bad do you want it? Are you willing to do anything? And then that happens. I was like, oh, yikes.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Spooky.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: The last episode was a lot there at first when the mom came in. So Dexter's mom, she seemed like, overbearing, rude, inappropriate boundaries. And I was ready to kind of go down that path. And then all of a sudden, to see the way that Dexter dismisses her feels very similar to him dismissing his wife. I'm curious about, is his ex wife alive or his deceased wife alive? What happened with their father?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Is he part of it, going to court against him? Why does she ask him to testify on her behalf? How icky. And I just found that fancy lunch between the two of them so awful and cringey. And the way that she just kept saying, I wish I never had kids, but I didn't have a choice. And you're like, saying that to the kid you had. It's just so awful. But also, I feel like I've seen an iteration of that conversation on the Real Housewives. So I think there are awful parents out there who just don't know boundaries and this awful stuff to their kids.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Right. Because I think there's ways to express things that if you really feel like they need to be expressed without saying it the way that they're saying it.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Like, oh, pregnancy was really hard. Not, oh, I wish I was never pregnant with you or toddler years were really challenging as a parent. Oh, you were. You know, you were colicky, you didn't sleep a lot. Like, that's not. That's, like, kind of a fact versus. And I wished that I had given you up for an option.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: It's like, right. There's what I think. Right. I think to be able to navigate that difference and see it, you have to be able to empathize with depths in this case, and imagine what's it going to feel like for him if I say this, and maybe I shouldn't, because maybe. But, like, there are people with narcissistic traits, borderline traits, sort of that cluster B personality realm, which, again, just as a refresher, includes things like narcissism, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, and antisocial personality disorder, where they're missing that empathy chip, so they're really not able to think about that. They just sort of see everything through their point of view, and that's it. And I feel like she's right in line with that.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: No, totally. So that'll be a know to be continued or TBC for part two. But.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I think the last thing that I thought was a really interesting line was something that Sonia said, actually. Again, Sonia is like, I guess, like the artist that Dex is apparently working with, but she looks a lot like his ex wife and even identical. Yes. Like, even Anna Victoria asks her, are you related to her? Do you know her? And stuff? Like, she's starting to pick things up. And Sonia was know my mother was borderline or bipolar or both, who knows? And I actually thought that was such a smart line because those conditions, borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder, often get misdiagnosed as each other. Sometimes you can have both simultaneously. I'd say that's probably pretty rare. But we're constantly misusing those labels, not only in popular media like this, but I think even, unfortunately, within the field, there can be similarities. And I think I often see people diagnosed with bipolar disorder when really what they have is borderline personality disorder. So I thought it might be helpful to maybe talk about the differences between the two.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. And I think I just want know our listeners, if you have seen the bear in season two of the Bear, which is episode we released last week, there is a moment where the mom.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Donna, or is it Donna?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: So she's having, like, television. She's having kind of, like a moment. But I think that's kind of a good example of when she's, like, cooking and there's chaos of where people do get confused because I think if you're using kind of pop psychology references, it's like, oh, she's having an episode. She's manic. It's like, she's not manic. She's dysregulated. And so we throw that around a lot. And I see mostly now bipolar two constantly paired with borderline. And that is pretty frustrating, I think. Yeah. And it just seems like a label because most people are not borderline one, which is like, you meet full criteria, right, for mania. Yeah, bipolar one. And yes, bipolar one. So it's not common. It's like a rarer disorder. And so we now have this bipolar two, which is, like, less severe symptoms. Right. Which is. But I feel like it's often over diagnosed in teens, young adults who are just having episodes where they're feeling dysregulated. They have a lot of environmental stressors. So it's really frustrating. So, yes, let's talk more about the differences.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: I would love to. I totally agree. And especially the bipolar, too. I will say anytime as a clinician, I see someone coming to me with a diagnosis of bipolar Two. I'm skeptical just because of this very phenomenon we're talking about, and especially once I see they have a quote unquote, history of bipolar two, plus trauma, plus substance abuse, plus ADHD. To me, what you're actually talking about are different characteristics of borderline personality disorder. You're just calling it different things again, not saying it's not possible to have all of those things. And sometimes it's not even borderline personality disorder. It's just trauma and, like, the sequelae of maybe living through traumatic experiences or complicated chronic traumatic experiences like child abuse or things like that. But I would love to talk about this topic. So when we think about borderline personality disorder again, revisit our Bear episode, revisit our episodes on succession and White Lotus, where we talk more about this know Roman in succession, and then Tanya and White Lotus again. It's a type of personality traits that are really stemming from know. Fear of abandonment is, like, at its core, and it can definitely have mood labelity. Which means that your mood changes rapidly. It can have impulsivity, you can have self harming behaviors, a lot of things that go along with it. But how you distinguish something like borderline personality disorder from something like bipolar disorder is the episodes, right? So like people with borderline personality disorder or other personality traits or perhaps trauma who have emotional label will have mood swings on the order of like minutes to hours to days, right. So usually their mood swings last short amount of time. Minutes, hours, days. These are the people who will say to you like 1 minute I'm happy, the next minute the world's awful and it's very black or white, very much all or nothing way of thinking. With bipolar disorder, what you have are discrete episodes of Time where for X number of days or more, you're experiencing multiple symptoms simultaneously, right? So the easiest way to think about it is when you have a major depressive disorder, you have symptoms of depression lasting for 14 days or more in a row, right? It's not like you get bad news and you feel really depressed or you lose a beloved pet and you're grieving. This is different. This is 14 days or more in a row. And it's not just the low mood and the anhedonia or loss of interest in things, it's other things too, like disrupted sleep, change in appetite, change in energy, trouble focusing, maybe some suicidal thoughts. Like all of that is depressive episode, right? So same thing applies for the other pole of mood disorders, what we call mania. Right, for mania for at least a week or more. So seven days in a row or more, you have to have a certain number of symptoms persist. That's very different from your baseline. And the acronym that we use to sort of remember, well, what are these symptoms you're looking for is dig fast. So distractability, impulsivity, grandiosity, flight of ideas, activity, increase sleep deficit and talkativeness. So basically these are people who feel like Superman on top of the world, very grandiose, have all these big ideas. They're engaging in impulsive behaviors, whether it's substance abuse, reckless spending, gambling, sexual encounters, flying down the highway on this skateboard, jumping off a roof because you think you can fly, like all of this stuff together. It's really hard to follow their train of thought because they're all over the place and they're talking so fast. We call it pressured speech. You can't get a word in. Once you've talked to someone with this, you know what I mean? But it's like, if you notice having normal conversations, like Portia, if you were to start talking, I would stop to listen to you. These people can't stop themselves. It's like they have a motor running and they can't stop. So that's the most extreme form called mania. Once you have one manic episode, you have bipolar one disorder. Most people with bipolar one disorder will also have depressive episodes, and they might have hypomanic episodes, but you have to have a manic episode, and usually the disruption in your functioning is so severe that you end up hospitalized. What's interesting is that most people with bipolar disorder, their first episode actually is a depressive episode, and it occurs in your late teens to 20s for men, twenty s to thirty s for women. Sometimes when you have mania, you also have psychotic symptoms like delusional thinking, hallucinations, things like that. And again, in pregnancy, if you have postpartum psychosis, that is most of the time indicative of an underlying bipolar disorder. And that's usually the first manic type episode that you're having or psychotic type episode. Bipolar two is a condition in which you have hypomania, so kind of like halfway between normal mood and mania. So maybe you're talking a little quicker, maybe you're not sleeping as much, but you're noticing it. You're having a bit more grandiosity, but it doesn't reach the threshold of mania, and that has to last for four days or more in a row. So again, it's not like you got great news and you're feeling high and on top of the world because of that for a short period of time, or you're having mood labely, it has to last for four days or more in a row. And for bipolar two, you have to have discrete episodes of hypomania and depression. So that's kind of a quick overview. Is that helpful?

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. I think the biggest takeaways are that, I don't know if this is just a really simplified way of thinking about it, but I like to think about borderline or BPD as more of typically, or just environment's effects. So, like wounds from childhood, attachment issues, trauma, and bipolar one, it feels more organic, like it's your brain. It's not happening because you experienced a trauma. Obviously that can trigger things, pregnancy can trigger it, but it's really more organic.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Medical.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, exactly. And that's why medication is more effective. Right. For bipolar one, it's like it helps your brain kind of regulate itself, and that's why with BPD, we often see, and you could speak to maybe the specific ones, but like, seven different kinds of medication. Who medicating all the different symptoms?

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Yeah, 100%. I think that's a great way to put it, is that I always think about BPD as the symptoms come out, when there's interpersonal conflicts. So often when you have a fight, you feel rejected, you feel emotionally abandoned, that's when you see the symptoms come out. And again, like, the mainstay treatment for BPD these days is DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, where it's all about identifying emotions, learning how tolerate distress, learning interpersonal effectiveness to be able to communicate your needs more appropriately and more assertively without acting out behaviors like harming yourself or making threats or things like that. And you're totally right that the treatment for bipolar disorders, you really need medication to keep it under wrap, specifically mood stabilizers, and sometimes antipsychotics or atypical antipsychotics. It's really hard to convince people to stay on these medications because unfortunately, they do have side effects. And a lot of times, part of mania is this grandiosity where you feel like, above everything, you feel like you can handle anything, you feel great, like you don't want to take it, you don't want to come down, because it's, like, intoxicating. So, as you can imagine, it's really hard to get people on board to take these medications. And the crash after a manic episode is usually a really bad depressive episode. And so, as you can imagine, the risk of suicide and things like that is really high, especially when you add substances on board, which can happen. A lot of people living with untreated bipolar disorder rely on drugs or alcohol to either bring them down or bring them up. It's really tricky. But then you're right. With BPD, the best treatment is really good therapy, and we use medications more so to treat the symptoms of BPD. Sometimes there is evidence for things like lamictal, which is a specific mood stabilizer to help with BPD, or SSRIs to help. But usually with BPD, again, you're treating the symptoms. And sometimes, unfortunately, I see in my practice, when you have a patient with BPD who doesn't know it because they haven't been accurately diagnosed or they're in inexperienced hands, they might be told they have bipolar disorder and ADHD and depression and anxiety and OCD, and basically all of the diagnoses possible, which is incredibly rare, to have every single mental health diagnosis possible. So you see someone, I think I've shared with you before, once I see someone's on medications from five different medication classes or more. My suspicion for BPD is pretty high. So usually I see, like, an SSRI plus a benzo for anxiety, plus a stimulant for ADHD, plus an antipsychotic like seroquil to help them sleep, or for their brief psychotic episodes, which, again, some patients with BPD do have these brief kind of, like, psychotic experiences of dissociative quality or things like that. And then the fifth one is, like, dealer's choice, like some random thing like propranolol or gabapentin or some random medication from a class. Again, once I start to see that, I think, okay, we need to step back and think, like, what are we treating here? It looks like we're treating each of the individual symptom clusters of BPD without actually treating the BPD. So that's just sort of what I've seen and kind of developed over time.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I mean, it seems to pop up in a lot of TV and movies. It's like bipolar, or in older movies, like Manic depressive and BPD. And narcissism. Of course, we can't forget our friendly narcissists, but. Which I would say is, like, probably Siobhan, right? Like, big, high PR for marketing. Definitely. I think she portrays it, and I think that's probably just, like, a typical presentation, being in that big of a.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: Position with power, right, where it's so image focused. And I did not get any with a narcissism from Anna Victoria, which I think is notable, even though she is, like, a famous actress. Again, not saying famous actresses have narcissism, but sometimes they do. So it's just interesting. And I think, even though as a whole, I didn't love it, I do think there were so many rich mental health themes that we keep seeing come up. And I always find it fascinating that in the art and media, this crossover of narcissism, BPD, bipolar disorder, kind of mirrors clinical experience that these things can be tricky to tease out because we don't have, like, a blood test or brain scans. Despite what the Amon clinic and all of their charlatan shenanigans will want you to believe. You can't diagnose this stuff with your favorite. Oh, my God, I just drives me nuts.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, well, and you just had an article come out with CNN about some of the new medication that is available for postpartum. We will link it in the show notes if you want to check it. You know, I think there's more research being done, more evidence kind of coming out all the time. That's hopefully supporting women and their birth journeys or their pregnancies, IVF journeys. And just like, I think it's been lacking for so long, so maybe even a show, right? That's like it's American Horror Story, so it's supposed to be wild and cringey.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: So it's like, I think it's so great. Let's keep the conversations going.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yes. Love it. Well, thanks for listening. Today we will be releasing part two as it comes out, and I am excited to do at some point, Murder House, just the psychiatrist in it. So that'll be fun. But you can follow us on all sorts of social media, TikTok, and Instagram at Analyze Scripts, podcasts. We are on YouTube now, so if you're watching, thank you. If you're listening and you want to watch, check us out there and make sure to like, share us and subscribe and we'll see you next time.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: See you next Sunday.

Portia Pendleton LCSW: Bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.