In this conversation, we explore AI bias, transformative justice, and the future of technology with Dr. Avriel Epps, computational social scientist, Civic Science Postdoctoral Fellow at Cornell University's CATLab, and co-founder of AI for Abolition.

What makes this conversation unique is how it begins with Avriel's recently published children's book, A Kids Book About AI Bias (Penguin Random House), designed for ages 5-9. As an accomplished researcher with a PhD from Harvard and expertise in how algorithmic systems impact identity development, Avriel has taken on the remarkable challenge of translating complex technical concepts about AI bias into accessible language for the youngest learners.

Key themes we explore:

- The Translation Challenge: How to distill graduate-level research on algorithmic bias into concepts a six-year-old can understand—and why kids' unfiltered responses to AI bias reveal truths adults often struggle to articulate

- Critical Digital Literacy: Why building awareness of AI bias early can serve as a protective mechanism for young people who will be most vulnerable to these systems

- AI for Abolition: Avriel's nonprofit work building community power around AI, including developing open-source tools like "Repair" for transformative and restorative justice practitioners

- The Incentive Problem: Why the fundamental issue isn't the technology itself, but the economic structures driving AI development—and how communities might reclaim agency over systems built from their own data

- Generational Perspectives: How different generations approach digital activism, from Gen Z's innovative but potentially ephemeral protest methods to what Gen Alpha might bring to technological resistance

Throughout our conversation, Avriel demonstrates how critical analysis of technology can coexist with practical hope. Her work embodies the belief that while AI currently reinforces existing inequalities, it doesn't have to—if we can change who controls its development and deployment.

The conversation concludes with Avriel's ongoing research into how algorithmic systems shaped public discourse around major social and political events, and their vision for "small tech" solutions that serve communities rather than extracting from them.

For anyone interested in AI ethics, youth development, or the intersection of technology and social justice, this conversation offers both rigorous analysis and genuine optimism about what's possible when we center equity in technological development.

About Dr. Avriel Epps:

Dr. Avriel Epps (she/they) is a computational social scientist and a Civic Science Postdoctoral Fellow at the Cornell University CATLab. She completed her Ph.D. at Harvard University in Education with a concentration in Human Development. She also holds an S.M. in Data Science from Harvard’s School of Engineering and Applied Sciences and a B.A. in Communication Studies from UCLA.

Previously a Ford Foundation predoctoral fellow, Avriel is currently a Fellow at The National Center on Race and Digital Justice, a Roddenberry Fellow, and a Public Voices Fellow on Technology in the Public Interest with the Op-Ed Project in partnership with the MacArthur Foundation.

Avriel is also the co-founder of AI4Abolition, a community organization dedicated to increasing AI literacy in marginalized communities and building community power with and around data-driven technologies. Avriel has been invited to speak at various venues including tech giants like Google and TikTok, and for The U.S. Courts, focusing on algorithmic bias and fairness.

In the Fall of 2025, she will begin her tenure as Assistant Professor of Fair and Responsible Data Science at Rutgers University.

Links:- Dr. Epps' official website: https://www.avrielepps.com

- AI for Abolition: https://www.ai4.org

- A Kids Book About AI Bias details: https://www.avrielepps.com/book

In this wide-ranging conversation, we explore the implications of planetary-scale computation with Benjamin Bratton, Director of the Antikythera program at the Berggruen Institute and Professor at UC San Diego. Benjamin describes his interdisciplinary work as appearing like a "platypus" to others—an odd creature combining seemingly incompatible parts that somehow works as a coherent whole.

At the heart of our discussion is Benjamin's framework for understanding how computational technology literally evolves, not metaphorically but through the same mechanisms that drive biological evolution: scaffolding, symbiogenesis, niche construction, and what he calls "allopoiesis"—the process by which organisms transform their external environment to capture more energy and information.

Key themes we explore:

• Computational Evolution: How artificial computation has become the primary mechanism for human "allopoietic virtuosity"—our ability to reshape our environment to sustain larger populations
• The Embodiment Question: Moving beyond anthropomorphic assumptions about AI embodiment to imagine synthetic intelligence with radically different spatial capabilities and sensory arrangements
• Agentic Multiplication: How the explosion of AI agents (potentially reaching hundreds of billions) will fundamentally alter human agency and subjectivity, creating "parasocial relationships with ourselves"
• Planetary Intelligence: Understanding Earth itself as having evolved a computational sensory layer through satellites, fiber optic networks, and distributed sensing systems
• The Paradox of Intelligence: Whether complex intelligence is ultimately evolutionarily adaptive, given that our computational enlightenment has revealed our own role in potentially destroying the substrate we depend on

Benjamin challenges us to think beyond conventional categories of life, intelligence, and technology, arguing that these distinctions are converging into something more fundamental. As he puts it: "Agency precedes subjectivity"—we've been transforming our world at terraforming scales long before we were conscious of doing so.

The conversation culminates in what Benjamin calls "the paradox of intelligence": What are the preconditions necessary to ensure that complex intelligence remains evolutionarily adaptive rather than self-destructive? As he notes, we became aware of our terraforming-scale agency precisely at the moment we discovered it might be destroying the substrate we depend on. It's a question that becomes increasingly urgent as we stand at the threshold of what could be either a viable planetary civilization or civilizational collapse—what Benjamin sees as requiring us to fundamentally rethink "what planetary scale computation is for."

About Benjamin Bratton: Benjamin Bratton is a philosopher of technology, Professor of Philosophy of Technology and Speculative Design at UC San Diego, and Director of Antikythera, a think tank researching planetary computation at the Berggruen Institute. Beginning in 2024, he also serves as Visiting Faculty Researcher at Google's Paradigms of Intelligence group, conducting fundamental research on the artificialization of intelligence.

His influential book The Stack: On Software and Sovereignty (MIT Press, 2015) develops a comprehensive framework for understanding planetary computation through six modular layers: Earth, Cloud, City, Address, Interface, and User. Other recent works include Accept All Cookies (Berggruen Press), written in conjunction with his co-curation of "The Next Earth: Computation, Crisis, Cosmology" at the 2025 Venice Architecture Biennale, and The Terraforming (Strelka), a manifesto arguing for embracing anthropogenic artificiality to compose a planet sustaining diverse life.

In this episode, we welcome David Wolpert, a Professor at the Santa Fe Institute renowned for his groundbreaking work across multiple disciplines—from physics and computer science to game theory and complexity.

* Note: If you enjoy our podcast conversations, please join us for the Artificiality Summit on October 23-25 in Bend, Oregon for many more in person conversations like these! Learn more about the Summit at www.artificiality.world/summit.

We reached out to David to explore the mathematics of meaning—a concept that's becoming crucial as we live more deeply with artificial intelligences. If machines can hold their own mathematical understanding of meaning, how does that reshape our interactions, our shared reality, and even what it means to be human?

David takes us on a journey through his paper "Semantic Information, Autonomous Agency and Non-Equilibrium Statistical Physics," co-authored with Artemy Kolchinsky. While mathematically rigorous in its foundation, our conversation explores these complex ideas in accessible terms.

At the core of our discussion is a novel framework for understanding meaning itself—not just as a philosophical concept, but as something that can be mathematically formalized. David explains how we can move beyond Claude Shannon's syntactic information theory (which focuses on the transmission of bits) to a deeper understanding of semantic information (what those bits actually mean to an agent).

Drawing from Judea Pearl's work on causality, Schrödinger's insights on life, and stochastic thermodynamics, David presents a unified framework where meaning emerges naturally from an agent's drive to persist into the future. This approach provides a mathematical basis for understanding what makes certain information meaningful to living systems—from humans to single cells.

Our conversation ventures into:

• How AI might help us understand meaning in ways we cannot perceive ourselves
• What a mathematically rigorous definition of meaning could mean for AI alignment
• How contexts shape our understanding of what's meaningful
• The distinction between causal information and mere correlation

We finish by talking about David's current work on a potentially concerning horizon: how distributed AI systems interacting through smart contracts could create scenarios beyond our mathematical ability to predict—a "distributed singularity" that might emerge in as little as five years. We wrote about this work here.

For anyone interested in artificial intelligence, complexity science, or the fundamental nature of meaning itself, this conversation offers rich insights from one of today's most innovative interdisciplinary thinkers.

About David Wolpert:
David Wolpert is a Professor at the Santa Fe Institute and one of the modern era's true polymaths. He received his PhD in physics from UC Santa Barbara but has made seminal contributions across numerous fields. His research spans machine learning (where he formulated the "No Free Lunch" theorems), statistical physics, game theory, distributed intelligence, and the foundations of inference and computation. Before joining SFI, Wolpert held positions at NASA, Stanford, and the Santa Fe Institute as a professor. His work consistently bridges disciplinary boundaries to address fundamental questions about complex systems, computation, and the nature of intelligence.

Thanks again to Jonathan Coulton for our music.

In this remarkable conversation, Michael Levin (Tufts University) and Blaise Agüera y Arcas (Google) examine what happens when biology and computation collide at their foundations. Their recent papers—arriving simultaneously yet from distinct intellectual traditions—illuminate how simple rules generate complex behaviors that challenge our understanding of life, intelligence, and agency.

Michael’s "Self-Sorting Algorithm" reveals how minimal computational models demonstrate unexpected problem-solving abilities resembling basal intelligence—where just six lines of deterministic code exhibit dynamic adaptability we typically associate with living systems. Meanwhile, Blaise's "Computational Life" investigates how self-replicating programs emerge spontaneously from random interactions in digital environments, evolving complexity without explicit design or guidance.

Their parallel explorations suggest a common thread: information processing underlies both biological and computational systems, forming an endless cycle where information → computation → agency → intelligence → information. This cyclical relationship transcends the traditional boundaries between natural and artificial systems.

The conversation unfolds around several interwoven questions:

- How does genuine agency emerge from simple rule-following components?

- Why might intelligence be more fundamental than life itself?

- How do we recognize cognition in systems that operate unlike human intelligence?

- What constitutes the difference between patterns and the physical substrates expressing them?

- How might symbiosis between humans and synthetic intelligence reshape both?

Perhaps most striking is their shared insight that we may already be surrounded by forms of intelligence we're fundamentally blind to—our inherent biases limiting our ability to recognize cognition that doesn't mirror our own. As Michael notes, "We have a lot of mind blindness based on our evolutionary firmware."

The timing of their complementary work isn't mere coincidence but reflects a cultural inflection point where our understanding of intelligence is expanding beyond anthropocentric models. Their dialogue offers a conceptual framework for navigating a future where the boundaries between biological and synthetic intelligence continue to dissolve, not as opposing forces but as variations on a universal principle of information processing across different substrates.

For anyone interested in the philosophical and practical implications of emergent intelligence—whether in cells, code, or consciousness—this conversation provides intellectual tools for understanding the transformed relationship between humans and technology that lies ahead.

Links:

• Our article on these two papers⁠
• Michael Levin’s Self-Sorting Algorithm
• Blaise Agüera y Arcas’s Computational Life

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Do you enjoy our conversations like this one? Then subscribe on your favorite platform, subscribe to our emails (free) at Artificiality.world, and check out the Artificiality Summit—our mind-expanding retreat in Bend, Oregon at Artificiality.world/summit.

Thanks again to Jonathan Coulton for our music.

In this episode, we welcome Maggie Jackson, whose latest book, Uncertain, has become essential reading for navigating today’s complex world. Known for her groundbreaking work on attention and distraction, Maggie now turns her focus to uncertainty—not as a problem to be solved, but as a skill to be cultivated.

Note: Uncertain won an Artificiality Book Award in 2024—check out our review here: https://www.artificiality.world/artificiality-book-awards-2024/

In the interview, we explore the neuroscience of uncertainty, the cultural biases that make us crave certainty, and why our discomfort with the unknown may be holding us back. Maggie unpacks the two core types of uncertainty—what we can’t know and what we don’t yet know—and explains why understanding this distinction is crucial for thinking well in the digital age.

Our conversation also explores the implications of AI—as technology increasingly mediates our reality, how do we remain critical thinkers? How do we resist the illusion of certainty in a world of algorithmically generated answers

Maggie’s insights challenge us to reframe uncertainty—not as fear, but as an opportunity for discovery, adaptability, and even creativity. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by ambiguity or pressured to always have the “right” answer, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on why being uncertain might be one of our greatest human strengths.

Links:

• Maggie: https://www.maggie-jackson.com/
• Uncertain: https://www.prometheusbooks.com/9781633889194/uncertain/

Do you enjoy our conversations like this one? Then subscribe on your favorite platform, subscribe to our emails (free) at Artificiality.world, and check out the Artificiality Summit—our mind-expanding retreat in Bend, Oregon at Artificiality.world/summit.

Thanks again to Jonathan Coulton for our music.

In this episode, we talk with Greg Epstein—humanist chaplain at Harvard and MIT, bestselling author, and a leading voice on the intersection of technology, ethics, and belief systems. Greg’s latest book, Tech Agnostic, offers a provocative argument: Silicon Valley isn’t just a powerful industry—it has become the dominant religion of our time. Note: Tech Agnostic won an Artificality Book Award in 2024—check out our review here. In this interview, we explore the deep parallels between big tech and organized religion, from sacred texts and prophets to digital congregations and AI-driven eschatology. The conversation explores digital Puritanism, the "unwitting worshipers" of tech's altars, and the theological implications of AI doomerism.

But this isn’t just a critique—it’s a call for a Reformation. Greg lays out a path toward a more humane and ethical future for technology, one that resists unchecked power and prioritizes human values over digital dogma.

Join us for a thought-provoking conversation on faith, fear, and the future of being human in an age where technology defines what we believe in.

Do you enjoy our conversations like this one? Then subscribe on your favorite platform, subscribe to our emails (free) at Artificiality.world, and check out the Artificiality Summit—our mind-expanding retreat in Bend, Oregon at Artificiality.world/summit.

Thanks again to Jonathan Coulton for our music.

In this episode, we sit down with the ever-innovative Chris Messina—creator of the hashtag, top product hunter on Product Hunt, and trusted advisor to startups navigating product development and market strategy.

Recording from Ciel Media’s new studio in Berkeley, we explore the evolving landscape of generative AI and the widening gap between its immense potential and real-world usability. Chris introduces a compelling framework, distinguishing AI as a *tool* versus a *medium*, which helps explain the stark divide in how different users engage with these technologies.

Our conversation examines key challenges: How do we build trust in AI? Why is transparency in computational reasoning critical? And how might community collaboration shape the next generation of AI products?

Drawing from his deep experience in social media and emerging tech, Chris offers striking parallels between early internet adoption and today’s AI revolution, suggesting that meaningful integration will require both time and a generational shift in thinking.

What makes this discussion particularly valuable is Chris’s vision for the future of AI interaction—where technology moves beyond query-response models to become a truly collaborative medium, transforming how we create, problem-solve, and communicate.

Links:

Chris: https://chrismessina.me

Ciel Media: https://cielcreativespace.com

D. Graham Burnett will tell you his day job is as a professor of science history at Princeton University. He is also co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention and has been associated with the Friends of Attention since 2018. But none of those positions adequately describe Graham.

His bio says that he “works at the intersection of historical inquiry and artistic practice.” He writes, he performs, he makes things. He describes himself as an attention activist. Perhaps most importantly for us, Graham helps you see the world differently—and more clearly.

Graham has powerful views on the effect of technology on our attention. We often riff on his idea that technology has fracked our attention into little commoditizable bits. His work has highly influenced our concern about what might happen if the same extractive practices of the attention economy are applied to the future AI-powered intimacy economy.

We were thrilled to have Graham on the pod for a wide ranging conversation about attention, intimacy, and much more.

Links:

https://dgrahamburnett.net

https://www.schoolofattention.org

https://www.friendsofattention.net

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Thanks to Jonathan Coulton for our music.

At the Artificiality Summit 2024, Michael Levin, distinguished professor of biology at Tufts University and associate at Harvard's Wyss Institute, gave a lecture about the emerging field of diverse intelligence and his frameworks for recognizing and communicating with the unconventional intelligence of cells, tissues, and biological robots. This work has led to new approaches to regenerative medicine, cancer, and bioengineering, but also to new ways to understand evolution and embodied minds. He sketched out a space of possibilities—freedom of embodiment—which facilitates imagining a hopeful future of "synthbiosis", in which AI is just one of a wide range of new bodies and minds.

Our opening keynote from the Imagining Summit held in October 2024 in Bend, Oregon. Join us for the next Artificiality Summit on October 23-25, 2025!