Dr. Nathan Pennell and Dr. John Sweetenham discuss the evolving landscape of oncology in 2025 and the challenges oncologists will be facing, including the impact of Medicare drug price negotiations, ongoing drug shortages, and the promising role of AI and telehealth in improving patient outcomes and access to clinical trials.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. John Sweetenham: Hello, I'm Dr. John Sweetenham, the host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast. 2025 promises to be a year of continued progress in drug development, patient care, and technological innovations that will shape the future of cancer care. Oncologists will also be grappling with some familiar challenges in oncology practice and probably face a few new ones as well. I'm delighted to be joined today by Dr. Nathan Pennell to discuss some of these challenges. Dr. Pennell is the co-director of the Cleveland Clinic Lung Cancer Program and vice chair of clinical research at the Taussig Cancer Center. He also serves as the editor-in-chief of the ASCO Educational Book. 

You'll find our full disclosures in the transcript of this episode. 

Nate, it's great to have you on the podcast today.

Dr. Nathan Pennell: Thanks for inviting me, John. I'm excited to be here.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Thanks. So, Nate, we've been hearing a lot recently about implementation science in oncology particularly. This has been the case, I would say, over the past decade and of course the goal is to how do we figure out the best way to integrate evidence-based practice into oncology care? There's been a lot of very good guidance from organizations like ASCO and every year we're reminded of the need for clinical decision support for practicing oncologists at the point of care. Although I think we all agree it is the right thing to do, and this has been a matter of discussion for probably more than 10 years, for the most part, I don't think we've really got there. Some big practices probably have a truly well-integrated clinical decision support tool, but for many of us this is still lacking in the field. I wonder whether we do need some kind of global clinical decision support tool. What do you think about the future of clinical decision support at the point of care? And do you think this is going to continue to be a need?

Dr. Nathan Pennell: I think that's a fantastic question and it absolutely is something we're going to continue to work towards. We're in an incredibly exciting time in oncology. We've got all these exciting predictive biomarkers, effective treatments that are working better than anything we've had in our careers up to this point. But when we actually look to see who is benefiting from them, what we find is that outside of clinical trial populations, many of our patients aren't actually accessing these.

And so publications that look at real-world use of these, one that jumps to mind for me is a publication looking at biomarker testing for driver oncogenes in lung cancer showed that while everyone who treats lung cancer says, “Absolutely, we need to test for biomarkers such as EGFR mutations,” in the real world, probably only slightly over a third of people ever access these drugs because there are so many different gaps in care that fall through the cracks. And so decision support is absolutely critical. 

You mentioned this has been going on for a decade. Actually, the Institute of Medicine in 2013 recommended that with the uptake of electronic medical records, that we move forward with building these true learning health care systems that would improve quality and use every patient's information to help inform their care. And in 2023, as a representative of ASCO, I was able to look back at the last decade, and the uniform conclusion was that we had failed to build this learning health care system. So, what can we do going forward? The good news is there are improvements in technology. There are, for better or for worse, some consolidation of electronic medical records that has allowed larger numbers of patients to sort of have data sets shared. ASCO started CancerLinQ to try to improve quality, which is now part of OpenAI, and is still working on technology solutions to help provide decision support as we are better able to access patient data. And I think we're going to talk a little bit later about some of the technological advances that are going on in artificial intelligence that are really going to help improve this. So I think this is very close to impacting patient care and improving quality of care. I think for, as you'd mentioned, large health care systems and users of the major EMRs, this is going to be extremely close.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Thanks, Nate. And just to extend the conversation into another area, one of the constant, I think, pain points for practicing oncologists has been the issue of prior authorization and the amount of time and energy it takes to deal with insurance denials in cancer care. And I think in a way, these two things are linked in as much as if we had clinical decision support tools at the point of care which were truly functional, then hopefully there would be a more facile way for an oncologist to be able to determine whether the patient in front of him or her is actually covered for the treatment that the oncologist wants to prescribe. But nevertheless, we're really not there yet, although, I think we're on the way to being there. But it does remain, like I said, a real pain point for oncologists. 

I wonder if you have any thoughts on the issue of prior authorization and whether you see in the coming year anything which is going to help practicing oncologists to overcome the time and effort that they spend in this space.

Dr. Nathan Pennell: I think many oncologists would have to list this among, if not the least favorite aspects of our job these days is dealing with insurance, dealing with prior authorizations. We understand that health care is incredibly expensive. We understand that oncology drugs and tests are even more expensive, probably among, if not the most rapidly growing costs to the health care system in the U.S., which is already at about 20% of our GDP every year. And so I understand the concern that costs are potentially unsustainable in the long term. Unfortunately, the major efforts to contain these costs seem to have fallen on the group that we would least like to be in charge of that, which are the payers and insurance companies, through use of prior authorization. And this is good in concept, utilization review, making sure that things are appropriate, not overutilizing our expensive treatments, that makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, it's moved beyond expensive treatments that have limited utility to more or less everything, no matter how inexpensive or standard. And there's now multiple publications suggesting that this is taking on massive amounts of time. Some even estimated that for each physician it's a full 40-hour work week per physician from someone to manage prior authorizations, which costs billions of dollars for practices every year. And so this is definitely a major pain point. 

It is, however, an area where I'm kind of optimistic, maybe not necessarily in 2025, but in the coming several years with some of the technology solutions that are coming out, as we've talked about, with things like clinical pathways and whatnot, where the insurance company approvals can be tied directly to some of these guideline concordance pathway tools. So the recent publication at the ASCO Quality [Care] Symposium looking at a radiation oncology practice that had a guideline concordant prior auth tool that showed there was massive decrease in denials by using this. And as this gets rolled out more broadly, I think that this can increase the concept of gold carding, where if practices follow these clinical guidelines to a certain extent, they may be even exempt from prior authorization. I think I can envision that this is very close to potentially removing this as a major problem. I know that ASCO certainly has advocated on the national level for changes to this through, for example, advocating for the Improving Seniors Timely Access to Care Act. But I think, unfortunately, the recent election, I'm not sure how much progress will be made on the national level for progress in this. So I think that the market solutions with some of the technology interventions may be the best hope.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Yeah, thanks. You raised a couple of other important points in that answer, Nate, which I'll pick up on now. You mentioned drug prices, and of course, during 2025, we're going to see Medicare negotiating drug prices. And we've already seen, I think, early effects from that. But I think it's going to be really interesting to see how this rolls out for our cancer patients in 2025. And of course, the thing that we can't really tell at the moment that you've alluded to is how all this is going to evolve with the new administration of President Trump. I understand, of course, that none of us really knows at this point; it's too early to know what the new administration will do. But would you care to comment on this in any way and about your concerns and hopes for Medicare specifically and what the administration will do to cancer care in general?

Dr. Nathan Pennell: I think all of us are naturally a little bit anxious about what's going to happen under the new administration. The good news, if there's good news, is that under the first Trump administration, the National Cancer Institute and cancer care in general was pretty broadly supported both in Congress and by the administration. And if we look at specifically negotiating drug prices by Medicare, you can envision that having a businessman president who prides himself in negotiations might be something that would be supported and perhaps even expanded under the incoming Trump administration. So I think that's not too hard to imagine, although we don't really know. On the other hand, there are very valid concerns about what's going to happen with the Affordable Care Act, with Medicaid expansion, with protections for preexisting conditions, which impact our patients with cancer. And obviously there are potential people in the new administration who perhaps lack trust in traditional evidence-based medicine, vaccines, things like that, which we're not sure where they're going to fall in terms of the health care landscape, but certainly something we'll have to watch out for.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Yeah. Certainly, when we regroup to record next year's podcast, we may have a clearer picture of how that's going to play out.

Dr. Nathan Pennell: I mean, if there's anything good from this, it's that cancer has always been a bipartisan issue that people support. And so I don't want to be too negative about this. I do think that public support for cancer is likely to continue. And so overall, I think we'll probably be okay.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think one of the things that's important to remember, I do remember that one of the institutions I've worked at previously that there from time to time was some discussion about politics and cancer care. And the quote that I always remember is “We all belong to the cancer party,” and that's what's really important. So let's just keep our eye on the board. I hope that we can do that. 

I'm going to switch gears just a little bit now because another issue which has been quite prominent in 2024 and in a few years before that has been supply chain issues and drug shortages. We've seen this over many years now, but obviously the problems have apparently been exacerbated in recent years, particularly by climate events. But certainly ASCO has published some recommendations in terms of quality care delivery for patients with cancer. Can you tell us a little bit about how you think this will go in the coming year and what we can do to address some of the concerns that are there over drug shortages?

Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah. This continues to be, I think, a surprising issue for many oncologists because it has been going on for a long time, but really hasn't been in the public eye. The general problem is that once drugs go off patent and become generic, they often have limited manufacturers that are often outside the U.S. sometimes even a single manufacturer, which leaves them extremely vulnerable to supply chain disruption issues or regulatory issues. So situations where the FDA inspects and decides that they're not manufacturing things up to snuff and suddenly the only manufacturer is temporarily shut down. And then as you mentioned, things like extreme weather events where we had Hurricane Maria hit Puerto Rico and suddenly we have no bags of saline for several months. And so these are major issues which I think have benefited from being in the public eye. 

ASCO, on the one hand, has, I think, done an excellent job leading on what to do in scenarios where there are shortages. But I think more importantly, we need more attention on a national level to policy changes that would help prevent this in the future. Some suggestions have been to increase some of the oversight of the FDA into supply chain issues and generic drugs, perhaps forming more of an early warning system to anticipate shortages so that we can find workarounds, find alternative suppliers that perhaps aren't currently being widely utilized. We can advocate for our legislators to pass legislation to support drug production for vital agents through things like long term contracts or even guaranteed pricing that might also even encourage U.S. manufacturers to take back up generic drugs if they were able to make it profitable. And then finally, I think just more of a national coordinated approach rather than the piecemeal approach we've done in the past. I remember when we had a platinum [drug] shortage last year. Our institution, with massive resources in our pharmacy, really did an excellent job of making sure that we always had enough supply. We never actually saw that shortage in real time, but I know a lot of places did not have those resources and therefore were really struggling. And so I think more of a coordinated approach with communication and awareness so that we can try to prevent this from happening.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Thanks, Nate. And you raised the issue of major weather events, and I'd like to pick up on that for just a moment to talk about climate change. We now know that there is a growing body of evidence showing that climate change impacts cancer care. And it does it in a lot of ways. I mean, the most obvious is disrupting care delivery during one of these major events. But there are also issues about increased exposure to carcinogens, reduced access to food, reduced access to cancer screenings during these major disasters. And the recent hurricanes, of course, have highlighted the need for cancer centers to have robust disaster preparedness plans. In addition to that, obviously there are questions about greenhouse gas emissions and how cancer centers and health care organizations handle that. 

But what do you see for 2025 in this regard? And what's your thinking about how well we're prepared as deliverers of cancer care to deal with these climate change issues?

Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, that is sobering to look at some of the things that have happened with climate change in recent years. I would love to say that I think that from a national level, we will see these changes and proactively work to reduce greenhouse emissions so that we can reduce these issues in the future. I'm not sure what we're going to see from the incoming administration and current government in terms of national policy on changes for fossil fuel use and climate change. I worry that there's a chance that we may see less done on the national level. I know the NCI certainly has policies in place to try to study climate change impact on cancer. It's possible that even that policy could be impacted by the incoming administration. So we'll have to see. 

So, unfortunately, I worry that we may be still dealing in a reactive way to the impacts of this. So, obviously, wildfires causing carcinogens, pollution leading to increased cancer incidence, obviously, major weather events leading to physical disruptions, where cancer centers definitely have to have plans in place to help people maintain their treatment during those periods. As an individual, we can certainly make our impact on climate change. There are certainly organizations like Oncologists United for Climate and Health, or so-called OUCH, led by Dr. Joan Schiller, a friend of mine in the lung cancer world, where oncologists are advocating for policies to reduce use of fossil fuels. But I don't know, John, I don't know if I'm hopeful that there's going to be major policy changes on this in the coming year.

Dr. John Sweetenham: I suspect you're right about that, although I think on the positive side, I think the issue as a whole is getting a lot more attention than it was maybe even two or three years ago. So that has to be a good thing that there's more advocacy and more attention out there now. 

Nate, before we go on to the last question, because I do want to finish on a positive note, I just wanted to mention briefly that there are a couple of ongoing issues which, when we do this podcast each year, we normally address, and they certainly haven't gone away. But we know that burnout and workforce issues in oncology will continue to be a big challenge. The workforce issues may or may not be exacerbated by whatever the new administration's approach to immigration is going to be, because that could easily significantly affect the workforce in oncology. So that's one issue around workforce and burnout that we are not addressing in detail this year. But I wanted to raise it just because it certainly hasn't gone away and is going to continue to challenge us in 2025. 

And then the other one, which I kind of put in the same category, is that of disparities. We continue to see ethnic and racial disparities of care. We continue to see disparities in rural areas. And I certainly wouldn't want to minimize the challenges that these are likely to continue to present in 2025. I wonder if you just have any brief comments you'd like to make and whether you think we're headed in the right direction with those issues.

Dr. Nathan Pennell: Well, I'm somewhat optimistic in some ways about burnout. And I think when we get to our final topic, I think some of that may help. There may be some technology changes that may help reduce some of the influences of burnout. Disparities in care, obviously, I think similarly to some of the other issues we talked about have really benefited from just a lot of attention being cast on that. But again, I actually am optimistic that there are some technology changes that are going to help reduce some disparities in care.

Dr. John Sweetenham: It's always great to finish one of these conversations on a positive note, and I think there is a lot to be very positive about. As you mentioned right at the beginning of the podcast, we continue to see quite extraordinary advances, remarkable advances in all fields of oncology in the therapeutic area, with just a massive expansion in not only our understanding, but also resulting from that improved understanding of the biology of the disease, the treatment advances that have come along. And so I think undoubtedly, we're going to see continued progress during 2025. And I know that there are technology solutions that you've mentioned already that you're very excited about. So, I'd really like to finish today by asking you if you could tell us a little about those and in particular what you're excited about for 2025.

Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah. It's always dangerous to ask me to nerd out a little bit about some of these technology things, but I don't think that we can end any conversation about technology and not discuss the potential for artificial intelligence (AI) in health care and oncology. AI is sort of everywhere in the media and sort of already worked its way into our lives in our phones and apps that we're using and whatnot. But some of what I am seeing in tools that are probably going to be here very soon and, in some cases, already arriving, are pretty remarkable. 

So some of the advances in natural language processing, or NLP, which in the past has been a barrier to really mining the vast amounts of patient information in the electronic medical record, is so much better now. So now, we can actually use technology to read doctor's notes, to read through scanned PDFs in our EMRs. And we can imagine that it's going to become very soon, much harder to miss abnormal labs, going to be much harder to miss findings on scans such as pulmonary nodules that get picked up incidentally. It's going to be much easier to keep up with new developments as clinical guidelines get worked in and decision support tools start reminding patients and physicians about evidence-based, high-quality recommendations. Being able to identify patients who are eligible for clinical trials is going to become much more easy. 

And that leads me to the second thing, which is, throughout the pandemic we have greatly increased our use of telehealth, and this really has the potential to reduce disparities in care by reaching patients basically wherever they are. This is going to disproportionately allow us to access rural patients, patients that are currently underrepresented in clinical trials and whatnot, being able to present patients for clinical trials. In the recent “State of Cancer Care in America” report from ASCO, more than 60% of patients in the U.S. did not have access to clinical trials. And now we have the technology to screen them, identify them and reach out to and potentially enroll them in trials through use of decentralized elements for clinical trials. And so I'm very optimistic that not just good quality standard cancer care, but also clinical research is going to be greatly expanded with the use of AI and telehealth.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Really encouraging to hear that. Nate, it's been a real pleasure speaking with you today and I want to thank you for taking the time to share your insights with us on the ASCO Daily News Podcast. 

Dr. Nathan Pennell: Thanks, John.

Dr. John Sweetenham: I also want to say thank you to our listeners for your time today. If you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclaimer:

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Find out more about today’s speakers:

Dr. Nathan Pennell

@n8pennell  

Dr. John Sweetenham

Follow ASCO on social media:   

@ASCO on Twitter   

ASCO on Facebook   

ASCO on LinkedIn   

Disclosures:  

Dr. John Sweetenham:  

Consulting or Advisory Role: EMA Wellness  

Dr. Nathan Pennell:    

Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Lilly, Cota Healthcare, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Genentech, Amgen, G1 Therapeutics, Pfizer, Boehringer Ingelheim, Viosera, Xencor, Mirati Therapeutics, Janssen Oncology, Sanofi/Regeneron   

Research Funding (Inst): Genentech, AstraZeneca, Merck, Loxo, Altor BioScience, Spectrum Pharmaceuticals, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Jounce Therapeutics, Mirati Therapeutics, Heat Biologics, WindMIL, Sanofi

Dr. Linda Duska and Dr. Domenica Lorusso discuss the practice-changing results of the phase 3 ENGOT-cx11/GOG-3047/KEYNOTE-A18 study, which evaluated pembrolizumab plus chemoradiotherapy as treatment for previously untreated, high-risk, locally advanced cervical cancer.

TRANSCRIPT 

Dr. Linda Duska: Hello, I'm Linda Duska, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a professor of obstetrics and gynecology and serve as the associate dean for clinical research at the University of Virginia School of Medicine.

On today's episode, we'll be discussing a new standard of care for previously untreated, high- risk locally advanced cervical cancer. This follows the ENGOT-cx11/GOG-3047/KEYNOTE-A18 study, which I will be referring to as KEYNOTE-A18 for the rest of this podcast, which demonstrated that pembrolizumab plus chemoradiotherapy improved both progression-free and overall survival compared to chemoradiotherapy alone. I was a co-author of this study, and I'm delighted to be joined today by the study's lead investigator, Dr. Domenica Lorusso, for today's discussion. She is also a professor of obstetrics and gynecology. She's at Humanitas University Rosano and the director of the Gynecologic Oncology Unit at the Humanitas Hospital San Pio in Milan, Italy.

Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode.

Dr. Lorusso, it's great to be speaking with you today.

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: Thank you, Linda. It's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Dr. Linda Duska: So I was hoping you could start us out with some context on the challenges associated with treating patients with high-risk, locally advanced cervical cancer.

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: Yes. I have to make a disclosure because in my experience as a gynecologist, cervical cancer patients are the most difficult patients to treat. This is a tumor that involves young patients [who often have] small kids. This is a very symptomatic tumor. More than 50% of patients report pain. Sometimes the pain is difficult to control because there is an infiltration of the pelvic nerves and also a kind of vaginal discharge, so it's very difficult to treat the tumor. Since more than 25 years, we have the publication of 5 randomized trials that demonstrate that when we combine platinum chemotherapy to radiation treatment, we increase overall survival by 6%. This is the new standard of care – concurrent chemoradiation plus brachytherapy. This is a good standard of care because particularly modern, image-guided radiotherapy has reported to increase local control. And local control in cervical cancer translates to better overall survival. So modern radiotherapy actually is able to cure about 75% of patients. This is what we expect with chemoradiation right now.

Dr. Linda Duska: So what are the key takeaways of A18? This is a really exciting trial, and you've presented it a couple of times. Tell us what are the key takeaways that you want our listeners to know.

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: Linda, this is our trial. This is a trial that we did together. And you gave me the inspiration because you were running a randomized phase 2 trial exploring if the combination of pembrolizumab to concurrent chemoradiation was able to give signals of efficacy, but also was feasible in terms of toxicity. There were several clinical data suggesting that when we combine immunotherapy to radiotherapy, we can potentially increase the benefit of radiotherapy because there is a kind of synergistic effect between the two strategies. Radiotherapy works as a primer and immunotherapy works better. And you demonstrated that it was feasible to combine immunotherapy to concurrent chemoradiation.

And KEYNOTE-A18 was based on this preliminary data. We randomized about 1,060 patients to receive concurrent chemoradiation and brachytherapy or concurrent chemoradiation and brachytherapy in combination with pembrolizumab followed by pembrolizumab for about two years. Why two years? Because in more than 80% of cases, recurrence in this patient population occurred during the first two years. So the duration of treatment was based on the idea to provide protection to the patient during the maximum time of risk.

And the trial had the two primary endpoints, progression free and overall survival, and met both the endpoints, a significant 30% reduction in the risk of progression that was confirmed. At the 3-year follow up, the observation was even better, 0.68. So 32% reduction in the risk of progression. And more importantly, because this is a curative setting, 33% reduction in the risk of death was reported in the experimental arm when pembro was combined with chemoradiation.

Dr. Linda Duska: That's amazing. I wanted to ask you, a prior similar study called CALLA was negative. Why do you think A18 was positive?

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: Linda, there are several discussions about that. I had the possibility to discuss several times with the PI of CALLA, Brad Monk. The idea of Brad is that CALLA was negative because of using durvalumab instead of PD-1 inhibitor, which is pembrolizumab. I do not have exactly the same impression. My idea is that it's the kind of patient population enrolled. The patient population enrolled in KEYNOTE-A18 was really a high-risk population; 85% of that patient were node positive, where the definition of node positivity was at least 2 lymph nodes in the pelvis with a short diameter of 1.5. So, we are very confident this patient was node-positive, 55% at the grade 3 and 4 diseases. So this is really a high-risk population. I remember at the first presentation of CALLA, I was honored to discuss the CALLA trial when it was first presented at IGCS a few years ago. And when I received the forest plot of Calla, it was evident to me that in patients with stage III and node positive there was a signal of efficacy. And we have a huge number of patients with node positive. So in my opinion this is the reason why KEYNOTE-A18 is positive.

Dr. Linda Duska: Yeah, I agree with you. I've thought about it a lot and I think you're right about that. The INTERLACE trial results were recently published. How should we interpret these results in the context of A18?

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: So it's very difficult to compare the 2 trials. First of all, in terms of population. The population enrolled in INTERLACE is a low-risk, locally advanced but low risk population; 76% were stage II, 10% were stage I, 60% were node-negative patients. So, first of all, the population is completely different. Second is the type of radiotherapy that was provided. INTERLACE is a 10-year long trial, but in 10 years the quality and the technique of radiotherapy completely changed. Only 30% of patients in INTERLACE received what we call the modern image-guided brachytherapy, which is important because it provides local control and local control increases overall survival. And third, we read the paper. I'm not a methodologist, but there are some methodological biases in the paper. All the statistical design of the trial was based on PFS, but PFS was evaluated at physician description. And honestly, I never saw a trial that had no pre-specified timeline for radiological evaluation. It's very difficult to evaluate progression in cervical cancer because the fibrosis related to radiotherapy changes the anatomy in the pelvis. And I think that the radiological evaluation is important to address if the patient is progressing or not. Particularly, because the conclusion of CALLA is that the PFS was mainly in favor of distant metastasis. So really, it's difficult for me to understand how distant metastasis may be evaluated with the vagina visit.

So really, it's very difficult to compare the two trials, but I have some concerns. And also because of toxicity in the study, unfortunately 30% of patients did not complete concurrent chemoradiation because of residual toxicity due to induction chemotherapy. So I wanted to be sure in the context of modern radiotherapy, if really induction chemo adds something to modern radiotherapy.

Dr. Linda Duska: Well, I have two more questions for you. As we move immunotherapy into the front line, at least for these high risk locally advanced cervical cancer patients that were eligible for A18, what does that mean then for hopefully those few that develop recurrence in terms of second line therapy?

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: Well, Linda, this is a very important question. We do not have data about immuno after immuno, but I would not completely exclude this hypothesis because in KEYNOTE-A18, the patient received treatment for a well-defined time period. And for those patients not progressing during immunotherapy, I really guess if there is a space for the reintroduction of immunotherapy at the time of recurrence. In this moment we have 30% of patients in KEYNOTE-A18 in the control arm that receive immunotherapy after progression, but still we have 11% of patients that receive immunotherapy in combination with concurrent chemoradiation and then receive, again, immunotherapy in later line of therapy. I think we need to collect these data to capture some signals and for sure we have the new drug. We have antibody drug conjugate. The trials are ongoing exploring the role of antibody drug conjugate, particularly in immune pretreated patients. So I think this is a very interesting strategy.

Dr. Linda Duska: I was going to ask you, “What are the next steps,” but I think you already answered that question.

You talked about the second line. If you were going to redesign a study in the frontline, what would it look like?

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: Probably one question that I would like to answer – there are two questions in my opinion in KEYNOTE-A18 – one is induction immunotherapy. Linda, correct me if I'm wrong, you reported very interesting data about the immune landscape change when you use induction immunotherapy. And I think this is something that we need to explore in the future. And the second question is the duration of maintenance. Because, again, we decided for two years based only on the epidemiology of recurrence, but I guess if one year may be enough.

Dr. Linda Duska: I think this sequencing question is really important, that the induction immunotherapy was actually GY017. I can't take credit for that, but I think you're right. I think the sequencing question is really important. Whether you need the concurrent IO or not is an important question. And then to your point about the 2 years, the length of the need for maintenance therapy is a question that we don't know the answer to. So there are lots of really important questions we can continue to ask.

I want to thank you so much for sharing your valuable insights with us on the podcast today. You're always so thoughtful about this particular study and cervix cancer in general and also for your great work to advance the care for patients with GYN cancers.

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: Thank you, Linda. It's our work - we progress together.

Dr. Linda Duska: Yes. And we thank the patients as well. The over 1,000 patients that went on this trial during a pandemic. Right?

Dr. Domenica Lorusso: Absolutely. Without their generosity and their trust, we would not be able to do this trial.

Dr. Linda Duska: So we're very grateful to them and we thank our listeners for your time today. If you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you all.

Disclaimer:

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Follow today’s speakers: 

Dr. Linda Duska

@Lduska

Dr. Domenica Lorusso

Follow ASCO on social media:  

@ASCO on Twitter  

ASCO on Facebook  

ASCO on LinkedIn  

Disclosures:  

Dr. Linda Duska:

Consulting or Advisory Role: Regeneron, Inovio Pharmaceuticals, Merck, Ellipses Pharma

Research Funding (Inst.): GlaxoSmithKline, Millenium, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Aeterna Zentaris, Novartis, Abbvie, Tesaro, Cerulean Pharma, Aduro Biotech, Advaxis, Ludwig Institute for Cancer Research, Leap Therapeutics

Patents, Royalties, Other Intellectual Property: UptToDate, Editor, British Journal of Ob/Gyn

Dr. Domenica Lorusso:

Consulting or Advisory Role: PharmaMar, AstraZeneca, Clovis Oncology, GSK, MSD, Genmab, Seagen, Immunogen, Oncoinvest, Corcept, Sutro Biopharma, Novartis, Novocure, Daiichi Sankyo/Lilly

Speakers’ Bureau: AstraZeneca, Clovis, GSK, MSD, ImmunoGen, Seagen

Research Funding (Inst.): PharmMar, Clovis, GSK, MSD, AstraZeneca, Clovis Oncology, Genmab, Seagen, Immunogen, Incyte, Roche, Pharma&, Corcept Therapeutics, Alkermes

Travel, Accommodations, Expenses: AstraZeneca, Clovis, GSK, Menarini

Dr. Ryan Augustin and Dr. Jason Luke discuss neoadjuvant immunotherapy and the importance of multidisciplinary team coordination, promising new TIL therapy for advanced melanoma, and the emerging role of CD3 engagers in treatment strategies.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Ryan Augustin: Hello, I'm Dr. Ryan Augustin, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a medical oncology fellow at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Joining me today is Dr. Jason Luke, an associate professor of medicine and the director of the Cancer Immunotherapeutic Center at the University of Pittsburgh Hillman Cancer Center. I had the privilege of working as a postdoc in Jason's translational bioinformatics lab, where we investigated mechanisms of resistance to immunotherapy in melanoma and other cancers. 

Today, we'll be discussing 3 important topics, including neoadjuvant immunotherapy and the importance of multidisciplinary team coordination, the impact and practical considerations for incorporating TIL therapy into melanoma, and the current and future use of CD3 engagers in both uveal and cutaneous melanoma. 

You'll find our full disclosures in the transcript of this episode. 

Jason, it's great to have this opportunity to speak with you today.

Dr. Jason Luke: Absolutely. Thanks, Ryan. It's great to see you.

Dr. Ryan Augustin: So, to kick things off, Jason, we, of course, have seen tremendous advances in cancer immunotherapy, not only in metastatic disease but also the perioperative setting. Recent data have shown that the use of neoadjuvant therapy can provide not only critical prognostic information but can also help individualize post-resection treatment strategies and potentially even eliminate adjuvant therapy altogether in patients who achieve a pathologic, complete response. This signifies a conceptual shift in oncology with the goal of curing patients with immunotherapy. In triple-negative breast cancer, the KEYNOTE-522 regimen with pembrolizumab is standard of care. In non-small cell lung cancer, there are now four FDA approved chemo-IO regimens in both the neoadjuvant and perioperative settings. And, of course, in melanoma, starting with SWOG S1801 utilizing pembro mono therapy, and now with combined CTLA-4 PD-1 blockade based on results from the NADINA trial, neoadjuvant IO is the new standard of care in high-risk, resectable melanoma. It's important to highlight this because whereas other tumor types have more mature multidisciplinary care, for example, patients with breast cancer are reviewed by the whole team in every center, and every patient with lung cancer certainly benefits from multidisciplinary care conferences, that's not always the case with melanoma, given the relative frequency of cases compared to other tumor types. 

Jason, would you say that we have now moved into an era where the integration of a multidisciplinary team and melanoma needs to be prioritized. And why is it important to have multidisciplinary team coordination from the onset of a patient's diagnosis?

Dr. Jason Luke: Well, I think those are great questions, Ryan, and I think they really speak to the movement in our field and the great success that we've had integrating systemic therapy, particularly immunotherapy, into our treatment paradigms. And so, before answering your question directly, I would add even a little bit more color, which is to note that over the last few years, we've additionally seen the development of adjuvant therapy into stages of melanoma that, historically speaking, were considered low-risk, and medical oncologists might not even see the patient. To that, I'm speaking specifically about the stage 2B and 2C approvals for adjuvant anti-PD-1 with pembrolizumab or nivolumab. So this has been an emerging complication. 

Classically, patients are diagnosed with melanoma by either their primary care doctor or a dermatologist. Again, classically, the next step was referral to a surgeon who had removed the primary lesion, with discussion around nodal evaluation as well. And that paradigm has really changed now, where I think integration of medical oncology input early on in the evaluation of the appropriate treatment plan for patients with melanoma is quite a pressing issue now, both because we have FDA approvals for therapeutics that can reduce risk of recurrence, and whether or not to pursue those makes a big difference to the patient for discussion early on. 

And, moreover, the use of systemic therapies now, prior to surgery, of course, then, of course, requires the involvement of medical oncology. And just for an emphasis point on this, it's classically the case, for good reason, that surgeons complete their surgery and then feel confident to tell the patient, “Well, we got it all, and you're just in really good shape.” And while I understand where that's coming from, that often leaves aside the risk of recurrence. So you can have the most perfect surgery in the world and yet still be at very high risk of recurrence. And so it's commonly the case that we get patients referred to us after surgery who think they're just in totally good shape, quite surprised to find out that, in fact, they might have a 20% to 50% risk of recurrence. And so that's where this multidisciplinary integration for patient management really does make a big difference. 

And so I would really emphasize the point you were making before, which is that we need multidisciplinary teams of med onc with derm, with surgery early on, to discuss “What are the treatment plans going to be for patients?” And that's true for neoadjuvant therapy, so, for palpable stage 3, where we might give checkpoint inhibitors or combinations before surgery. But it's true even in any reasonably high-risk melanoma, and I would argue in that state, anything more than stage 1 should be discussed as a group, because that communication strategy with the patient is so important from first principles, so that they have an expectation of what it's going to look like as they are followed out over time. And so we're emphasizing this point because I think it's mostly the case at most hospitals that there isn't a cutaneous oncology disease management meeting, and I think there needs to be. 

It's important to point out that usually the surgeons that do this kind of surgery are actually either the GI surgeons who do colon cancer or the breast surgeons. And so, given that melanoma, it's not the most common kind of cancer, it could easily be integrated into the existing disease review groups to review these cases. And I think that's the point we really want to emphasize now. I think we're not going to belabor the data so much, but there are enormous advantages to either perioperative or adjuvant systemic therapy in melanoma. We're talking about risk reduction of more than 50%, 50-75% risk reduction. It's essential that we make sure we optimally offer that to patients. And, of course, patients will choose what they think is best for their care. But we need to message to them in a way that they can understand what the risks and benefits of those treatments are and then are well set up to understand what that treatment might look like and what their expectations would be out over time. 

So I think this is a great art of medicine place to start. Instead of belaboring just the details of the trial to say, let's think about how we take care of our patients and how we communicate with them on first principles so that we can make the most out of the treatments that we do have available.

Dr. Ryan Augustin: That's great, Jason. Very insightful points. Thank you. 

So, shifting gears now, I'd also like to ask you a little bit about TIL therapy in melanoma. So our listeners will be aware that TIL is a promising new approach for treating advanced melanoma and leverages the power of a patient's cytotoxic T cells to attack cancer cells. While we've known about the potential of this therapy for some time, based on pioneering work at the NCI, this therapy is now FDA approved under the brand AMTAGVI (Lifileucel) from Iovance Biotherapeutics, making it the first cellular therapy to be approved for a solid tumor. Now, I know TIL therapy has been administered at your institution, Jason, for several years now, under trial status primarily for uveal melanoma using an in-house processing. But for many cancer centers, the only experience with cellular therapy has come under the domain of malignant hematology with CAR T administration. At our institution, for example, we have only recently started administering TIL therapy for melanoma, which has required a tremendous multidisciplinary effort among outpatient oncology, critical care, and an inpatient hematology service that has expertise in cytokine release syndrome. 

Jason, where do you see TIL therapy fitting into the metastatic space? Which patients do you think are truly candidates for this intensive therapy? And what other practical or logistical considerations do you think we should keep in mind moving forward?

Dr. Jason Luke: Well, thanks for raising this. I think the approval of lifileucel, which is the scientific name for the TIL product that's on the market now. It really is a shift, a landscape shift in oncology, and we're starting in melanoma again, as seems to be commonly the case in drug development. But it's really important to understand that this is a conceptually different kind of treatment, and therefore, it does require different considerations. Starting first with data and then actualization, maybe secondarily, when we see across the accelerated approval package that led to this being available, we quote patients that the response rate is likely in the range of 30%, maybe slightly lower than that, but a meaningful 25% to 30% response rate, and that most of those patients that do have response, it seems to be quite durable, meaning patients have been followed up to four years, and almost all the responders are still in response. And that's a really powerful thing to be able to tell a patient, particularly if the patient has already proceeded through multiple lines of prior standard therapy. So this is a very, very promising therapy. 

Now, it is a complicated therapy as well. And so you highlighted that to do this, you have to have a tumor that's amenable for resection, a multidisciplinary team that has done a surgery to remove the tumor, sent it off to the company. They then need to process the TIL out of the tumor and then build them up into a personalized cell product, bring it back, you have to lympho-deplete the patient, re-introduce this TIL. So this is a process that, in the standard of care setting under best circumstances, takes roughly six weeks. So how to get that done in a timely fashion, I think, is evolving within our paradigms. But I think it is very important for people who practice in settings where this isn't already available to realize that referring patients for this should be a strong consideration. And thinking about how you could build your multidisciplinary team in a way to be able to facilitate this process, I think is going to be important, because this concept of TIL is relevant to other solid tumors as well. It's not approved yet in others, but we kind of assume eventually it probably will be. And so I think, thinking through this, how could it work, how do you refer patients is very important. 

Now, coming back to the science, who should we treat with this? Well, of course, it's now an air quotes “standard of care option”, so really it ought to be available to anybody. I will note that currently, the capacity across the country to make these products is not really adequate to treat all the patients that we’d want. But who would we optimally want to treat, of course, would be people who have retained a good performance status after first line therapy, people who have tumors that are easily removable and who have not manifested a really rapid disease progression course, because then, of course, that six-week timeline probably doesn't make sense. The other really interesting data point out of the clinical trials so far is it has looked like the patients who got the least amount of benefit from anti-PD-1 immunotherapy, in other words, who progressed immediately without any kind of sustained response, those patients seem to have the best response to TILs, and that's actually sort of a great biomarker. So, this drug works the best for the population of patients where checkpoint inhibitors were not effective. And so as you think about who those patients might be in your practice, as you're listening, I think prioritizing it for primary progression on anti PD-1, again and giving it ahead thought about how would you get the patient through this process or referred to this process very quickly is really important because that lag time is a problem. Patients who have melanoma tend to progress reasonably quickly, and six weeks can be a long time in melanoma land. So, thinking ahead and building those processes is going to be important moving into the future

Dr. Ryan Augustin: Definitely appreciate those practical considerations. Jason, thank you. 

Moving on to our final topic, I was hoping to discuss the use of immune cell engagers in melanoma. So, similar to CAR T therapy, bispecific T-cell engagers, or BiTEs, as they're commonly known, are standard of care in refractory myeloma and lymphoma. But these antibodies engaging CD-3 on T cells and a tumor specific antigen on cancer cells are relatively new in the solid tumor space. Tarlatamab, which is a DLL-3 and CD-3 bispecific antibody, was recently approved in refractory small cell lung cancer, and, of course, tebentafusp, an HLA-directed CD-3 T cell engager was approved in uveal melanoma in 2022. Both T and NK cell engaging therapies are now offering hope in cancers where there has historically been little to offer. However, similar to our discussion with TIL therapy, bispecifics can lead to CRS and neurotoxicity, which require considerable logistical support and care coordination. 

Jason, I was wondering if you could briefly discuss the current landscape of immune cell engagers in melanoma and how soon we may see these therapies enter the treatment paradigm for cutaneous disease.

Dr. Jason Luke: I think it is an exciting, novel treatment strategy that I think we will only see emerge more and more. You alluded to the approval of tebentafusp in uveal melanoma, and those trials were, over the course of a decade, where those of us in solid tumor land learned how to manage cytokine release syndrome or the impact of these C3 bispecifics, in a way that we weren't used to. And what I'll caution people is that CRS, as this term, it sounds very scary because people have heard of patients that, of course, had difficult outcomes and hematological malignancies, but it's a spectrum of side effects. And so, when we think about tebentafusp, which is the approved molecule, really what we see is a lot of rash because GP100, the other tumor antigen target, is in the skin. So, patients get a rash, and then people do get fevers, but it's pretty rare to get more than that. So really what you have to have is the capacity to monitor patients for 12 hours, but it's really not more scary than that. So it really just requires treating a few people to kind of get used to these kinds of symptoms, because they're not the full-on ICU level CRS that we see with, say, CAR T-cells. 

But where is the field going? Well, there's a second CD3 bispecific called brenetafusp that targets the molecule PRAME, that's in a phase 3 clinical trial now for frontline cutaneous melanoma. And tebentafusp is also being evaluated in cutaneous melanoma for refractory disease. So, it's very possible that these could be very commonly used for cutaneous melanoma, moving into, say, a two-to-four-year time horizon. And so therefore, getting used to what are these side effects, how do you manage them in an ambulatory practice for solid tumor, etc., is going to be something everyone's going to have to learn how to deal with, but I don't think it should be something that people should be afraid of. 

One thing that we've seen with these molecules so far is that their kinetics of treatment effect do look slightly different than what we see with more classic oncology therapies. These drugs have a long-term benefit but doesn't always manifest as disease regression. So, we commonly see patients will have stable disease, meaning their tumor stops growing, but we don't see that it shrank a lot, but that can turn into a very meaningful long-term benefit. So that's something that we're also, as a community, going to have to get used to. It may not be the case we see tumors shrink dramatically upfront, but rather we can actually follow people with good quality- of-life over a longer period of time. 

Where is the field going? You mentioned tarlatamab in small cell lung cancer, and I think we're only going to see more of these as appropriate tumor antigens are identified in different tumors. And then the other piece is these CD3 engagers generally rely upon some kind of engagement with a T cell, whether CD3 engagers, and so they can be TCR or T-cell receptor-based therapies, although they can be also SCFV-based. But that then requires new biomarkers, because TCR therapy requires HLA restriction. So, understanding that now we're going to need to profile patients based on their germline in addition to the genomics of the tumor. And those two things are separate. But I would argue at this point, basically everybody with cutaneous melanoma should be being profiled for HLA-A(*)0201, which is the major T-cell receptor HLA haplotype that we would be looking for, because whether or not you can get access immediately to tebentafusp, but therefore clinical trials will become more and more important. 

Finally, in that T-cell receptor vein, there are also T cell receptor-transduced T cells, which are also becoming of relevance in the oncology community and people listening will be aware in synovial sarcoma of the first approval for a TCR-transduced T cell with afamitresgene autoleucel. And in melanoma, we similarly have TCR-transduced T cells that are coming forward in clinical trials into phase 3, the IMA203 PRAME-directed molecule particularly. And leveraging our prior conversation about TILs, we're going to have more and more cellular based therapies coming forward, which is going to make it important to understand what are the biomarkers that go with those, what are the side effect profiles of these, and how do you build your practice in a way that you can optimally get your patients access to all of these different treatments, because it will become more logistically complicated, kind of as more of these therapies come online over the next, like we said, two to four years kind of time horizon. So, it's very exciting, but there is more to do, both logistically and scientifically.

Dr. Ryan Augustin: That's excellent. Thanks, Jason, and thank you so much for sharing your great insight with us today on the ASCO Daily News Podcast.

Dr. Jason Luke: Thanks so much for the opportunity.

Dr. Ryan Augustin: And thank you to our listeners for your time today. You will find links to the abstracts discussed today in the transcript of this episode, and you can follow Dr. Luke on X, formerly known as Twitter, @jasonlukemd. And you can find me, @RyanAugustinMD. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclaimer:

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

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Disclosures:

Dr. Ryan Augustin: No relationships to disclose

Dr. Jason Luke:

Stock and Other Ownership Interests: Actym Therapeutics, Mavu Pharmaceutical, Pyxis, Alphamab Oncology, Tempest Therapeutics, Kanaph Therapeutics, Onc.AI, Arch Oncology, Stipe, NeoTX

Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, EMD Serono, Novartis, 7 Hills Pharma, Janssen, Reflexion Medical, Tempest Therapeutics, Alphamab Oncology, Spring Bank, Abbvie, Astellas Pharma, Bayer, Incyte, Mersana, Partner Therapeutics, Synlogic, Eisai, Werewolf, Ribon Therapeutics, Checkmate Pharmaceuticals, CStone Pharmaceuticals, Nektar, Regeneron, Rubius, Tesaro, Xilio, Xencor, Alnylam, Crown Bioscience, Flame Biosciences, Genentech, Kadmon, KSQ Therapeutics, Immunocore, Inzen, Pfizer, Silicon Therapeutics, TRex Bio, Bright Peak, Onc.AI, STipe, Codiak Biosciences, Day One Therapeutics, Endeavor, Gilead Sciences, Hotspot Therapeutics, SERVIER, STINGthera, Synthekine

Research Funding (Inst.): Merck , Bristol-Myers Squibb, Incyte, Corvus Pharmaceuticals, Abbvie, Macrogenics, Xencor, Array BioPharma, Agios, Astellas Pharma , EMD Serono, Immatics, Kadmon, Moderna Therapeutics, Nektar, Spring bank, Trishula, KAHR Medical, Fstar, Genmab, Ikena Oncology, Numab, Replimmune, Rubius Therapeutics, Synlogic, Takeda, Tizona Therapeutics, Inc., BioNTech AG, Scholar Rock, Next Cure

Patents, Royalties, Other Intellectual Property: Serial #15/612,657 (Cancer Immunotherapy), and Serial #PCT/US18/36052 (Microbiome Biomarkers for Anti-PD-1/PD-L1 Responsiveness: Diagnostic, Prognostic and Therapeutic Uses Thereof)

Travel, Accommodations, Expenses: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Array BioPharma, EMD Serono, Janssen, Merck, Novartis, Reflexion Medical, Mersana, Pyxis, Xilio

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga discusses emerging approaches to personalizing locoregional treatment for breast cancer with Drs. Walter Paul Weber and Charlote Coles, who share insights on tailoring axillary surgery, escalating lymphatic surgery, and implementing hypofractionated radiotherapy.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: Hello, I'm Dr. Dionisia Quiroga, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a breast medical oncologist and assistant professor in the Division of Medical Oncology at the Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center. On today's episode, we'll be discussing emerging approaches to personalize locoregional treatment for patients with breast cancer, including many of the latest updates on axillary surgical staging, lymphatic surgery, and evidence-based radiotherapy in the treatment of breast cancer.

We're very fortunate to have joining me today for this discussion Dr. Walter Paul Weber, a professor and head at the Division of Breast Surgery at the University Hospital Basel in Switzerland, and Dr. Charlotte Coles, a professor of cancer clinical oncology and the deputy head of the Department of Oncology at the University of Cambridge in the United Kingdom.

Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode. Dr. Weber and Dr. Coles, it's very wonderful to have you on the podcast and thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Walter Paul Weber: Thank you very much for having us.

Dr. Charlotte Coles: Thank you.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: Now, for many decades prior, axillary lymph node dissection has very much been our standard of care. But recently, axillary surgeries have been able to be gradually deescalated to spare some of our patients from relative and relevant long-term morbidity. There are still some indications in which axillary lymph node dissection still remain. And therefore, we still see breast cancer-related lymphedema, a well-known sequela of the axillary surgery to continue to be prevalent. And I think it's important also to acknowledge that today there's about an estimated 1.5 million cancer survivors who deal with breast cancer-related lymphedema. Now, Dr. Weber, at the recent ASCO Annual Meeting, you and your co-presenters discussed tailoring axillary surgery, escalating lymphatic surgery and implementing evidence-based hypofractionated radiotherapy to really personalize locoregional treatment for people who've been diagnosed with breast cancer. And in addition to that, you and Dr. Coles have also published this work in the 2024 ASCO Educational Book. Can you tell us about some of the recent advances in axillary surgery and what are really the current indications for axillary dissection?

Dr. Walter Paul Weber: Yes, I'm happy to do so. So as you've said, we've known for a while that we can omit axillary dissection in patients with clinically known negative breast cancer and negative sentinel nodes. We've known for about 10-15 years that we can omit axillary dissection in patients with one or two positive sentinel nodes in many patients. But what we've learned recently is that we can omit axillary dissection also in patients with one or two positive sentinel nodes who have larger primary tumors who undergo mastectomy or who have extranodal extension. This is a landmark trial that was published just a few months ago, the SENOMAC trial that established this. The remaining indications for axillary dissection are situations where you expect a heavy tumor load in the axilla. For example, when you have more than two positive sentinel nodes or you have a patient with clinically node-positive breast cancer who undergoes upfront surgery and has palpable disease or significant disease on imaging. Patients with locally advanced breast cancer, who are considered by some to be not eligible for nodal downstaging, such as patients with CN2, CN3 disease or CT4 breast cancer. And then the big group of patients who have residual disease after neoadjuvant chemotherapy in the nodes, standard of care is still axillary dissection.

But we now have some real-world evidence that it's safe for selected patients with low volume nodal disease left in the nodes, mostly isolated tumor cells, to not undergo axillary dissection. So these are the remaining indications today.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: Can you speak to situations where maybe even sentinel lymph node biopsies might be omitted? I know you spoke a little bit about the use of imaging in your work.

Dr. Walter Paul Weber: Yes, this is correct. So, we started about maybe 7 or 8 years ago to omit sentinel lymph node biopsy in older patients above 70 years of age who have luminal disease, according to recommendations from the Choosing Wisely initiative. And now indeed there are several ongoing randomized trials that investigate if axillary imaging can replace surgical staging of the axilla.

And the first of these trials was published recently, the SOUND trial with almost 1,500 patients, who underwent breast conserving surgery and had small tumors and all had a negative ultrasound of the axilla. And then they were randomized into a sentinel lymph node biopsy versus no axillary surgery. And that trial showed non-inferiority of the omission of sentinel lymph node biopsy in these patients.

Now, it's a bit early to roll out the Choosing Wisely recommendation to all patients who have a negative ultrasound. The SOUND trial showed that about 14% had a false-negative ultrasound. So, in the control arm, they actually did have a positive sentinel node. And in patients where that one missed sentinel node makes a big difference in terms of systemic therapy, most experts would still recommend sentinel biopsy, and these are patients mainly with HER2-positive or triple-negative breast cancer or premenopausal patients or those who have G3 biology.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: I think you bring up a very important point. Coming from the side of a breast medical oncologist, we're also very interested to see what these studies show because many of our practices are based on what we find out from our lymph node biopsies. So, I think a lot of interesting prospective studies to look at in the future.

Dr. Walter Paul Weber: Absolutely.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: One other topic we wanted to discuss was local regional management of stage four disease and particularly oligometastatic disease. And this is not a new topic of interest. We've been speaking about this for a long time in breast cancer management, but can you address some of the axillary management strategies that you currently use for stage 4 disease?

Dr. Walter Paul Weber: Yes, it depends on your intention. If your intention is to cure the patient, then you would apply all the locoregional standards that apply in the curative setting, which means lymph node biopsy with or without axillary dissection. Now in a palliative situation, it's individualized. Very often you don't touch the axilla and sometimes you open it and just remove palpable disease, trying to minimize morbidity. The question of which intent you should follow is controversial; three out of the four randomized trials did not show a benefit for locoregional surgery in patients with de novo stage 4 disease. However, experts seem to disagree. The last St. Gallen consensus recommendation was in favor of the curative intent in such a patient with oligometastatic disease; 85% favored the curative intent. So there's a bit of discrepancy there, but everybody would agree, and this is what has been done in all of these trials, that if you try to cure the patient, then you should apply the curative standards of sentinel and axillary dissection that you use also in early-stage breast cancer.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: Thank you. Now, moving on from surgical axillary management and more into lymphedema prevention and treatment. Can you speak to some of the promising advances that have happened in this field?

Dr. Walter Paul Weber: Yes, so the best way to prevent lymphedema still is not to perform axillary dissection, which is the number 1 risk factor, which is all the axillary surgery de-escalation research that we've just discussed is all about. Prevention of lymphedema is one major aim of this. Now, once you indicate axillary dissection and you expect the patient to be at high risk – for example, if there are other risk factors such as obesity or neoadjuvant chemotherapy or extended regional nodal radiotherapy, then indeed there are emerging techniques that really seem to work. There is some evidence supporting it, which is categorizable as immediate lymphatic repair basically or bypass. And that is usually in a patient who undergoes axillary dissection, and also undergoes axillary reverse mapping. That allows the identification of the lymph nodes that are probably most relevant to the drainage of the lymphatic fluid from the arm. And then you can try to spare these. But if you decide, and this is effective, there is a consistent body of evidence, not phase 3 trials, but pretty consistent evidence that axillary reverse mapping works just by sparing the identified nodes.

But if you decide that you have to remove these nodes as part of the radical concept of axillary dissection, then immediate lymphatic repair is also increasingly being done and is also supported by consistent evidence, even some single center randomized trials, low volume, but all consistently showing quite a striking benefit of this immediate lymphatic repair technique.

There are different ways you can do it. You can either use it the microscope, and it's being done by the plastic surgeons, but it's also a simplified technique described that can be used by specialized general and breast surgeons. Both techniques seem to really work based on what we know from the studies, but also based on our common sense.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: You talked about the procedures that can be offered to patients at time of breast surgery. And unfortunately, many of our patients maybe did not have the availability of those techniques when they undergo their initial breast cancer treatment. Once lymphedema is developed in a limb following breast cancer diagnosis, can you speak to other interventions that can be done to potentially help mitigate lymphedema?

Dr. Walter Paul Weber: Right, so for patients who no longer benefit from or wish to further undergo conservative treatment of lymphedema, there are emerging procedures that are now out of my personal comfort zone because they're being performed by plastic surgeons; they use the microscope. There are two groups, the lymphovenous anastomosis and then the real vascular lymph node transfer as a free flap. And both of these procedures (there are no randomized trials yet published), but some really good ones are on the way and currently recruiting based on the evidence we have, which is over 20 observational studies all consistently again showing a benefit in terms of what you can measure in terms of centimeters or with a bioimpedance spectroscopy, or also when you ask the patients, you see quite some dramatic improvements by both of these techniques. And it's increasingly being done. Personally, I strongly believe that it works based on everything we know and understand from lymphedema development, but also prevention and treatment. So I am quite sure that in 5-10 years, we will see much more surgical treatment of patients with lymphedema by highly specialized plastic surgeons.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: That's my hope as well. Now, another important component of local regional treatment we know is of course radiotherapy. And there have been many incredible advances in breast radiotherapy over the past decades, which has really improved cancer control and decreased side effects in our patients. Dr. Coles, you've led practice changing radiotherapy trials in the past and your research has really influenced international hypofractionation policy.

Can you expand upon the emergence of hypofractionated radiation for breast cancer and the effects that it can have on our patient care?

Dr. Charlotte Coles: Yes, so thank you very much, Dr. Quiroga. So I think the first thing to say is that radiotherapy hypofractionation isn't a new concept. And in fact, the breast radiotherapy hypofractionation trial started around three decades ago. And the rationale for this was the hypothesis that breast cancer is as sensitive to fraction, which is the treatments that we give, we split it into fractions, is sensitive as late responding tissue. So what does this mean? It means that the small traditional 2 Gy fraction spare tumor and normal tissues equally, so there's no advantage. So therefore, fewer fractions with a larger dose per fraction are worth testing.

The problem is there's a concern that hypofractionation might increase the risk of side effects, and that includes the really important one we've been talking about, lymphedema. But we can reduce this risk by reducing the total radiotherapy dose over the whole course. But the question was by how much. So that's why randomized trials were needed. And there's been really high-quality trials with robust radiotherapy quality assurance, and they've been designed in partnership with patients. So just a very quick run through: A landmark trial was the UK START B trial. And this was a pragmatic design that compared 50 Gy in 25 fractions, which was commonly used in the south of the country with 40 Gy in 15 fractions, which was used at that time in the north [of the UK]. And this recruitment was around in the late 1990s and early 2000s. What we knew was that the three-week regimen was actually radiobiologically lower dose. And therefore the results that we got, it wasn't surprising that the 40 Gy was actually gentler on the normal tissue. So that's an advantage for patients.

But what was surprising was it wasn't gentler on the tumor and non-inferiority was proven. So this suggests that overall treatment time is important for local control. So this fits with hypofractionation. Way back in 2009, 40 Gy in 15 fractions to both the breast and regional nodes became standard of care in the UK. But five-week nodal and actually breast as well remained standard of care in many countries for many years after that, a little bit to do with the fact that there were few patients treated in the START trial in terms of treating the node. So more recently we've had more randomized trials, particularly for nodal radiotherapy. And this includes the recently reported Danish SKAGEN 1 trial and also the French HypoG-01 trial, which was actually presented at ESMO in Barcelona a couple of weeks ago. So we've now got data for over 5,800 participants in really high-quality randomized trials testing three weeks and five weeks of nodal radiotherapy. And there's no statistically significant difference in late normal tissues for any of these, including lymphedema. So certainly, in my opinion and reflecting in many of the European guidelines, five-week radiotherapy is no longer indicated and three-week nodal radiotherapy is the international standard of care. So, in conclusion, the question is can we hypofractionate even further?

So the UK FAST-Forward trial tested three weeks with two different dose levels of one week for the whole breast. Primary endpoint was ipsilateral breast tumor response. More than 4,000 patients participated and this was reported in 2020 with a median follow -up of six years and this was very timely because this is a time of COVID and the results showed non-inferiority for local control with similar late normal tissue side effects and we've also had other results from the UK IMPORT HIGH trial which shows that we can safely deliver a small, highly targeted team of boost simultaneously with the whole breast in all in three weeks.

Finally, these two landmark trials have come together for the design of the UK FAST-Forward Boost Study led by my colleague Dr. Anna Kirby. And this is going to test three-week simultaneous integrated boost with two levels of one-week simultaneous integrated boost. And it's also going to test the safety of 5 fraction nodal radiotherapy, including the internal mammary node. Primary endpoint is ipsilateral breast tumor response, multiple normal tissue endpoints, including patient-reported outcomes of course, and the target recall is large with 4,800 participants. So, in summary, I would say that hypofractionation is efficacious, has similarly reduced toxicity. Importantly, it reduces patient burden and that's incredibly important because it means that people can get back on with their life quicker. It reduces health system costs, and also increases equity of access. So we really do need to continue to recruit and design high quality trials in this area.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: Thank you, Dr. Coles. I think you highlight that there really aren't any downsides to looking into hypofractionated radiotherapy at this point. So excited to see what those future trials yield.

And I want to thank you so much, Dr. Weber and Dr. Coles for sharing your valuable insights with us today on the ASCO Daily News Podcast.

Dr. Walter Paul Weber: Thank you very much.

Dr. Charlotte Coles: Thank you.

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga: And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. Our listeners will find a link to our guests’ article from the ASCO Educational Book in the transcript of this episode, as well as a link to their presentation from the most recent ASCO Annual Meeting. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcast.

Disclaimer:  

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.  

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. 

Find out more about today’s speakers:  

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga

@quirogad

Dr. Walter Paul Weber

Dr. Charlotte Coles

Follow ASCO on social media:    

@ASCO on Twitter   

ASCO on Facebook   

ASCO on LinkedIn   

Disclosures:

Dr. Dionisia Quiroga:

No relationships to disclose

Dr. Walter Weber:

Honoraria: MSD

Dr. Charlotte Coles:

No relationships to disclose

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham and ASCO CMO Dr. Julie Gralow discuss the shortage of IV fluids and other challenges that have emerged from Hurricane Helene as high-risk areas brace for impact from another storm, Hurricane Milton. In a conversation with Dr. John Sweetenham, they highlight resources for oncologists and patients and stress the importance of crisis preparedness at cancer centers.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. John Sweetenham: Hello, I'm Dr. John Sweetenham, the host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast. Hurricane Helene made landfall on September 26th in Florida and raged over parts of Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia. The disaster has claimed over 230 lives. Many people are still missing, and many thousands are homeless.

The hurricane has exacerbated the nation's IV fluid shortage, and some health care facilities have begun implementing conservation strategies. Meanwhile, Hurricane Milton, another powerful hurricane, is expected to wreak havoc as Florida braces for back-to-back hurricanes in parts of the state.

On today's episode, we'll be discussing the impact of these events on cancer care, including the shortage of IV fluids. Joining me for this discussion is Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham, a professor and research lead for the University of Florida Health Cancer Center's Gynecologic Cancer Disease Site Group. I'm also delighted to welcome Dr. Julie Gralow, the chief medical officer at ASCO. Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode.

Merry Jennifer and Julie, many thanks for joining us for the podcast today.

Dr. Julie Gralow: Thanks for having us, John.

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham: Yes, thank you.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Merry Jennifer, can you tell us your exact location today and how your patients and institution have been impacted by Hurricane Helene so far?

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham: I am in the north-central part of Florida. I'm in Gainesville, Florida, which is the home of the University of Florida, where I practice medicine. And we are physically about two hours north of Tampa, two hours north of Orlando, and about an hour and a half southwest of Jacksonville. So right in the middle. And we are currently in the track for the next storm.

Helene was a really a devastating storm and what our area felt was primarily what we tend to get in most storms here in the center part of the state, which is a lot of rain, a high risk for tornadoes and a lot of power outages. And one of the challenges that my center in particular faces, and some of the local cancer centers and cancer care providers around in our region, is our patients live in a very rural population. So for those patients who are not in downtown Tampa, downtown Orlando, for example, the rest of the state, especially in the northern part, tends to be quite rural. And so many of our patients had loss of power and a lot also in those regions are on well water. And so when the power goes out, it's not just a matter of losing air conditioning and losing access to Wi-Fi, but it's also losing access to fresh, clean water.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Wow, it sounds very challenging. And of course, there are growing concerns at the moment about the IV fluid shortage that's being caused by Hurricane Helene and some hospitals have already begun conserving IV fluid supplies. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience with IV fluid shortages so far and whether you are anticipating other medical supplies to be affected by these shortages in the days or weeks ahead?

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham: Well, the IV fluid shortage has definitely impacted us. I happened to be on service last week and this week, and, working in the inpatient setting right now on our oncology inpatient service, we are having to conserve all IV fluid, and the entire hospital has been directed to find workarounds. And it's not always easy to find workarounds. It has definitely impacted our ability to safely discharge patients and to sometimes adequately give people the hydration, for example, that they need. A lot of the cancer therapies, we also use intravenous fluids to pre-hydrate or post-hydrate, and it's a challenge when we also need to conserve those IV fluids for other critical needs in the hospital setting. And for me, the shortage is really being felt in that inpatient setting right now. I think that other centers are still going through. And what we learned from the pandemic is that when there is a shortage, and it's not just actually the pandemic that we learned this from, but from any of the supply chain issues that we've had is then centers start buying it up, right? And so there's a bit of a panic in the healthcare field where if we're short on IV fluids, then well, now everybody is buying up the remaining IV fluids. And I think that does impact, unfortunately, everyone in a negative way.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Yeah, I was reading some news reports earlier today actually about stockpiling and the efforts that some of the companies are going to control their outward going supplies to hopefully prevent some of that stockpiling. As if life for you and your patients wasn't difficult enough, you now have the prospect of another major storm, Hurricane Milton, which is headed your way and predicted to be among the most destructive hurricanes ever on record in central Florida. What are your major concerns in the days ahead and for what this might mean for the longer-term impact on cancer care?

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham: It's concerning. We are definitely in the path and the hospital is currently in sort of crisis preparedness mode. My concerns are always for the patients and for the teams caring for them, especially in my current work in the inpatient setting, these last two weeks. Our patients, because they come from such rural areas, are going to lose power. We will probably lose power, but we have generators at the hospital system, so we're a bit protected. But in many of these areas around us, there will be high winds, there will be flooding for those along the coast, and just the access to a clean, safe living environment is going be in jeopardy during and after the storm.

What concerns me about our patients in particular with cancer are the ones who are undergoing treatments and who may have complications and may not be able to reach the help that they need during the storm or in the days following. I have patients that I have been caring for in the last week who still haven't recuperated, still haven't recovered their power from Helene. And so this is just adding insult to injury. I think that the impact on medical supplies is still to be seen. The challenge is always when a storm wipes out the major manufacturer of a particular product, I think we'll probably continue to have the IV fluid shortages. And I think it's just going to be a matter of preparing for a worst-case scenario but being prepared.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Absolutely, yes. I think you've already alluded to the fact that as each of these successive disasters affect the country, we sort of learn a little bit more each time. And ASCO has provided resources on its website for disaster assistance. We'll share a link in the transcript of this episode to connect providers and patients to the Hurricane Helene-specific resources, government agencies, and also to patient and caregiver groups.

Julie, as ASCO's chief medical officer, you've been speaking to stakeholders across the oncology community, as well as many groups that are responding to the crisis. What's your message to ASCO members and patients and caregivers today?

Dr. Julie Gralow: Our main message at ASCO to our members, our immediate outreach was, ‘We're thinking of you, we're here for you, let us know how we can help you.’ As you've already said, we've learned from past natural disasters. We had Katrina way back when, specifically for the IV drug shortages. We had a shortage back in 2014 due to a problem in Norway, but in 2017 we had another hurricane, Maria, which impacted Puerto Rico and majorly impacted IV fluids. So we have knowledge that we've gained, we as the whole medical community have gained on how to adapt and where we can hydrate orally or, you know, give electrolytes and where we can reserve things. I think one of our main messages at ASCO is that while our members are those who treat patients with cancer, we use IV fluid everywhere in the hospital, the operating room, the emergency room, the ICUs. We are all in this together, and so, while we have some specific things related to oncology where we can probably save fluid and conserve, etc., we need to work as a whole team, a whole body to protect each other. So, if you're developing an incident management team at your institution or whatever, it needs to be multidisciplinary. We all need to be protecting each other's patients as well.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Yeah, absolutely. Just briefly on the subject of IV fluids, do you think it will be necessary to mitigate the IV fluid issue by bringing IV fluids in from other countries?

Dr. Julie Gralow: I think the full impact, how long this is going to be, how much we can ramp up domestically, is really yet to be seen. all looking at this. So Baxter, which supplies about 60% of hospital IV fluids and peritoneal dialysis solutions, it was flooded essentially at their big plant in North Carolina. They have several other plants in the US and some internationally too. So the question will be, did those other plants also make IV fluids? Can they be ramped up? There are another at least two companies in the U.S. that make IV fluid. What will be their ability to ramp up? we already do. Baxter says they've already; I think Merry Jennifer alluded to this, they've already instituted a mitigation strategy where they're placing products on a protective allocation. So they are really trying to protect against stockpiling, et cetera.

The FDA has come out and said it will consider reviewing potential temporary imports. It also is looking at expediting reviews once the manufacturing lines are up and going again, it will expedite those as well. And they're looking at alternative providers. IV drugs are officially on the FDA's drug shortages list, and that allows certain flexibilities, I am told, in terms of, for example, being able to make sterile IV fluids at a local site if it's on the FDA drug shortage list. And there are some other things that go along with it. It's really hard to find on the FDA drug shortage site. You have to use the right keyword. You have to look it up under sodium chloride for injection. You can't look up saline on it. But it is now there. I think it just got placed in the last 24 hours or so. And so that does allow some additional flexibilities.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Okay, great. Thank you. So a question for both of you. A couple of years ago, we covered the consequences of Hurricane Ian on this podcast. And Helene and Milton will presumably not be the last storms which are going to disrupt cancer care and undoubtedly cause a great deal of hardship to many people, both our patients and our caregivers, those who are giving care. Climate change probably predicts that this is going to be an ongoing event. You know, these events have undoubtedly tested the disaster preparedness plans of cancer centers in the region. I wonder how you would assess the readiness of cancer centers to respond to these big disasters, which are undoubtedly in our future, and what areas of care do you think would need more attention? Merry Jennifer, maybe I'll start with you for that question.

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham: I think cancer centers, working within their health system, really should have a disaster preparedness plan in place. Here in Florida, I am very used to the preparedness plans that my system has developed really for every hurricane season. And because hurricane season is from June to the end of November, we are fully aware of this plan and can start taking action. And a lot of that deals with when do we close particular clinics? What areas do we need to prioritize? How do we make sure we've got proper staffing? I think that is the type of thing that cancer centers should have really in a written protocol – here's what we do when this news is coming out of the weather center or something along those lines.

One of the challenges that we face, and I think probably this is, I guess I'm going to speak for all of the Southeast who is in the, you know, a hurricane, you know, risk area is disaster fatigue. And I think that is a problem. I don't know if it's unrecognized. I fully recognize it because I feel it. think earlier when we were talking, you mentioned Hurricane Ian and I don't even remember, Ian, because we have so many of these hurricanes. Every year there's a new one or multiple, and they all seem to bring the same kind of disasters. Usually on a local scale; I think what we've seen with Helene has just been so massive across multiple states. But the fatigue, that disaster fatigue, I think can lead people to become a little lax.

And there is a risk. If we think of all of us as caregivers for all of our patients and for the physicians and teams practicing, it's easy to become numb and tired and worn out of preparing for these disasters. So, I think it's very important that this stays top of mind and that centers are preparing and also cognizant of the fact that fatigue is also a real potential issue.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Right, thanks. Julie.

Dr. Julie Gralow: We learn from each event and the events have come closer and closer, at least the hurricanes have. I totally agree with Merry Jennifer that we can't have disaster fatigue. Each one does have its unique component. For example, Helene, while we could see the path and it didn't stray that far from its path, did we really expect that this region, this Appalachian region would be the one most impacted? They're nowhere near a coast, you know, it was a bunch of flooding and dams breaking, so each one is different. From ASCO's perspective, we've learned and we've developed both a domestic crisis response team and plan, as well as an international one.

And it's, besides hurricanes and major storms, you know, we've had fires and earthquakes and for our international crisis response team, we've been dealing with conflict and getting cancer care delivery in regions of conflict. So by having a team formed, by learning from each event, and then quickly communicating with members when we can get ahold of them on the ground as to what the real situation is and how we can help, I think we've gotten stronger over the years. It's still, with each one, it's horrible for the people on the ground and our job really is to best support our members and their patients as they're trying to get their lives back together.

Dr. John Sweetenham: Thank you. So, I think that winds up most of the issues we wanted to cover today. And I wanted to thank you both Dr. Markham and Dr. Gralow for being on the podcast today and sharing your insights on what is, of course, an extremely challenging situation.

I should remind listeners that they will find links to disaster resources for providers and patients on the ASCO website at asco.org. You can also follow Dr. Markham on X. Her tag is at @DrMarkham, where she has been sharing key information and resources. And Dr. Julie Gralow will continue to share resources on X. You can find her @jrgralow.

We want to wish you, Merry Jennifer, and our many colleagues in the affected regions, all the best during what we know are very challenging times.

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham: Thank you.

And thanks to you, Dr. Gralow, for sharing your insights and thoughts with us today as well.

Dr. Julie Gralow: Thanks for having us, John.

Dr. John Sweetenham: And thank you to our listeners for your time today. If you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclaimer:

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. It is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. The guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements do not necessarily reflect the opinions of ASCO. Mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. 

Find out more about today’s guests:

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham

@DrMarkham

Dr. Julie Gralow

@jrgralow

Follow ASCO on social media:

 @ASCO on Twitter

ASCO on Facebook

ASCO on LinkedIn

Disclosures:

Dr. John Sweetenham

No relationships to disclose

Dr. Merry Jennifer Markham:

Stock and Other Ownership Interests (Immediate Family Member): Pfizer

Research Funding (Inst.): AstraZeneca, Merck

Dr. Julie Gralow:

No relationships to disclose

Dr. Fumiko Chino and Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon share highlights from the 2024 ASCO Quality Care Symposium, including patient perspectives and compelling research on topics like equity, supportive care, survivorship, and technology and innovation.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Fumiko Chino: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I'm Dr. Fumiko Chino, an assistant professor in radiation oncology at the MD Anderson Cancer Center. On today's episode, we'll be highlighting key research and compelling perspectives that were featured at the 2024 ASCO Quality Care Symposium. I was delighted to serve as the chair-elect of this meeting's program committee, and I'm overjoyed to welcome its chair, Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon, to the podcast today. He is the chief scientist at the Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation and the director of the Multidisciplinary Thoracic Oncology Program at the Baptist Cancer Center in Memphis, Tennessee.

Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode, and we've already agreed to go by our first names for this podcast today. Ray, it's so great to speak with you today.

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Thank you, Dr. Chino, and thank you for letting me call you by your first name.

Dr. Fumiko Chino: I think both of our names are complicated enough and so I appreciate the level of familiarity that we've had with each other during the planning process for this fantastic meeting. Now, the Quality Care Symposium featured some really compelling research on very timely topics that address a wide range of issues in cancer care, including quality, safety, equity, supportive care, survivorship, and technology and innovation. Wow, what a lot to cover. Ray, do you mind sharing with me some of the key sessions that really stood out for you?

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yes, Fumiko, this was such a great conference. Our tagline this year was ‘Driving Solutions, Implementing Change.’ We had more than 700 attendees in person and virtually. The Symposium featured many fantastic speakers, oral abstracts, posters, and we had networking opportunities for junior colleagues to interact with leaders in the space. We had conversations that will surely inspire future collaborations to improve quality cancer care. We had patients, advocates. I was inspired by the patient perspectives that were presented, learned a lot. And I really felt like this enhanced our understanding of some of the key issues that we see in our clinics.

I was honored to be able to introduce my dear friend, Dr. Ethan Basch from the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, who received the Joseph Simone Quality Care Award this year. Dr. Basch gave a talk titled, “On the Verge of a Golden Age in Quality Cancer Care.” In his talk, which received a standing ovation, Dr. Basch tracked his personal development from fellowship training at Memorial Sloan Kettering through a junior faculty position at the same institution under the mentorship of Dr. Deborah Schrag, and ultimately to his current position as chair of oncology at the University of North Carolina and as physician-in-chief at the North Carolina Cancer Hospital. In parallel, with the evolution of the patient-reported outcomes movement that he has been right at the heart of, and also the evolution of cancer care delivery research into its current position of prominence in oncology. That was a spectacular talk, and it rightly received a standing ovation. We also had presentations and panel discussions that addressed patient navigation and cancer care moving from theory to practice, which provided wonderful, diverse perspectives on the evidence-based approaches to patient navigation and cancer care. And a wonderful session on the complexities of the pharmaceutical supply chain and what everyone in oncology should know that looks at the current challenges in the pharmaceutical supply chain.

Leveraging technology to support patient-centered multidisciplinary care [was also covered], and we talked about health-related social needs and the impact of diversity, equity and inclusion on the oncology workforce. Patient care perspectives were just incredible. So, Fumiko, as an equity researcher, I really want to hear your key takeaways from some of these discussions.

Dr. Fumiko Chino: I have to say, I was so impressed with not just the science that was presented, but also the passion from some of our educational speakers who are really speaking from their expertise and their commitment to try to continue to advance equity in the field of cancer care. And as someone who is still a relatively junior researcher, I feel that the work that I've done over the last decade has really been built on the shoulders of these giants. Just harkening back to you had mentioned that Dr. Basch essentially gave an overview of his career and as a young health services researcher, I've been really impressed about how generous the leaders in the field have been with their time not only to discuss their research at this conference, but also to talk to trainees and fellows and junior researchers and really share the wealth of their knowledge.

In terms of equity research presented at the conference though, I was really struck by the overview we were able to provide about the best care to provide to LGBTQ patients. Dr. Mandy Pratt-Chapman actually gave a really lovely overview that was always centered in the patient. It really taught me a lot about what the best practice is to not just collect SOGI data to improve research, but also that there's billing codes that can actually help decrease the chance that a patient may be misbilled based on anatomical misunderstanding of their gender identity. I was very impressed about the capacity for some of our researchers to really think outside of the classic box for DEI research. So not just race as a social construct, ethnicity, but also health literacy barriers. There was a fantastic analysis looking at a randomized control trial (Abstract 385) that actually showed that patients with low health literacy actually got the most benefit from a digital intervention that involved text reminders to increase adherence.

And the flip side of health literacy is that we know that the specific interventions that we do really need to be explicitly designed for the populations that they will be implemented on. Dr. LoConte actually had the results from her intervention looking at a radon mitigation indigenous communities (Abstract 44). And I was so impressed about her commitment to the process of listening to the communities and what their needs were, what their concerns were, and then implementing this community led intervention that helped mitigate the radon risk from many households where the actual radon levels were surprisingly high, beyond what they were that what they were anticipating. And so, it's all of these manifestations of how do we actually improve research, how do we advance the field and further the conversation in an era when it seems like DEI is really under attack.

Well, I know you've long been an advocate for equity for lung cancer. And I know that you were actually involved in one of the amazing abstracts being presented that was essentially a decade- long QI (quality improvement) project to try to improve standards of care for lung cancer in a high-risk community in the Mississippi Delta (Abstract 278). And it actually showed over time that this surgical pathology intervention actually was able to improve overall survival for lung cancer.

I know that this is part of the work that you've been doing for years. Can you talk a little bit about what was presented within the Symposium specifically for lung cancer, including your study?

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yes, Fumiko. The member of my team, Olawale Akinbobola, who has an MPH that he actually acquired within my research team I'm proud to say, had the wonderful opportunity to present this work on implementing surgical quality improvement, and in parallel, pathology quality improvement in a well-defined population involving 14 hospitals in seven health care systems across five contiguous hospital referral regions in Mississippi, Arkansas, and Tennessee, at the heart of the Mississippi Delta region. So Olawale showed that over the course of four consecutive 5-year time spans, the quality of surgery has improved from a time when using current objective benchmarks of surgical quality, anywhere from 0-5% of resections met these current standards. So basically, applying today's standards, but retrospectively, to where, as the interventions took hold, we now got to a point where about 67% of the sections in this population now attain surgical quality. And we saw in sequential lockstep with that, that the hazard of death among these patients has significantly decreased. All the way, I think using the first 5 years as the reference, the hazard reduced about 64%. Really amazing to see.

But you know, there were other fascinating abstracts. There was a randomized controlled trial, Abstract 185, that demonstrated that olanzapine therapy was actually way more effective than prochlorperazine for patients with intractable chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting. I found that very compelling abstract.

And then there was Elyse Richelle Parks who reported on the effectiveness of a virtual sustained tobacco treatment, Abstract 376 [a clinical trial conducted by ECOG-ACRIN within the NCI Community Oncology Research Program]. This tobacco control intervention is remotely administered using technology that was presented in today's session on leveraging technology to enhance multidisciplinary care delivery.  That too was amazing to behold.

Dr. Fumiko Chino: I've been so impressed within my, at least my interactions with the Quality Care Symposium for the last several years about how this meeting really creates the perfect space for this type of science, which can be frankly underappreciated at other meetings. You know, something like a QI project, a quality improvement project leading to an overall survival benefit or a trial like you mentioned, the randomized control trial for olanzapine, which specifically had a quality-of-life endpoint, meaning that patient quality-of-life was a compelling justification for optimal nausea control. These things are really underappreciated sometimes at the larger scientific meetings, and the ASCO Quality Care Symposium is really where these types of studies and this type of research really shines; it's very patient-centered.

You mentioned the patient voice being a really integral part, and I certainly agree with that. The entire meeting started with a session featuring a phenomenal patient advocate, Jamil Rivers, who was diagnosed with de novo stage 4 metastatic breast cancer. And her experience with her primary treatment really highlighted some of the care gaps that Black women experience in their journey with breast cancer. And it really charged her to actually create a patient navigation organization to help Black women with breast cancer get more evidence-based care to make sure that they were actually asking the questions that needed to be asked, getting the resources that they qualified for, and making sure they were getting evidence-based care.

Now shifting gears a little bit, in oncology and across medicine, there's actually been some major challenges with drug shortages. I'd like to ask you about the session that was featured to inform oncologists about what we need to know about navigating the complexities of the pharmaceutical supply chain. Do you mind sharing highlights from that discussion, Ray?

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: I will, Fumiko, but before I do that, I have to follow up on what you said about Jamil Rivers, the breast cancer survivor and advocate who leads the Chrysalis Initiative. She made the statement of the meeting [in my opinion] when she said, “A hospital encounter for a Black woman is like a Black man being pulled over by the police.” Wow. I mean, that's a direct quote. It suddenly helped me understand my wife's many years-long anxiety whenever she has to deal with encounters with clinicians and health care systems.

But about that wonderful session on the challenges with the pharmaceutical supply chain. For me, there were two key highlights. One was Dr. Deborah Patt’s discussion on the growing influence of pharmacy benefit managers, PBMs, on the cost and delivery of cancer care.

And then there is Jason Weston's discussion of how U.S. generic oncology drug manufacturing has moved almost entirely out of the U.S. with this incredible unrealistic price focus, almost so focused on price competition, almost totally ignoring quality and safety. And paradoxically, that fierce competition has inhibited competition, right?

So as the margins have shrunk and all these generic drug manufacturers have moved overseas with little oversight, the supply chain gets disrupted because these companies are not able to invest in processes, in their manufacturing facilities and so on. So, when something goes wrong, all of us become vulnerable. And the other striking thing I learned from Jason was this problem is not new. It is not new. It's been with us for decades. And without comprehensive solutions, unfortunately, it's not going to go away. So, these are some of the examples of things that I would really love the podcast audience to go and check out for themselves.

Dr. Fumiko Chino: I will just highlight one additional aspect of that session, which was actually the oral abstract (Abstract 1) that was embedded into the session that was specifically about how when during the cisplatin shortage of last year, when that drug was out of stock, which is honestly a very widely available, typically cheap medication, Dr. Jody Garey actually presented on the fact that the things that were substituted were actually far more expensive, and that actually led to not just people not getting the standard of care due to the drug shortages, but also increased costs. So, the bizarre side effect of the race to the bottom in terms of price competition is the fact that during these shortage periods, there's actually a sharp increase in the overall cost, not just to the administration, but also in terms of payer costs and patient cost sharing. So, it is sort of a lose-lose situation. And that was really highlighted to me by that abstract. And I'm so grateful for the research that really puts these experiences that we see in our clinic, things like drug shortages, in a larger perspective of how things like health policy and reimbursement and some of the nitty-gritty that goes on beyond the scenes in terms of oncology practice really is ending up impacting patient care.

Now Ray, is there anything else you'd like to highlight before we wrap up the podcast?

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: One I maybe should highlight was the discussion about DEI, which is obviously a contentious topic. And we had Dr. Tawana Thomas Johnson with the American Cancer Society tell us how DEI has evolved from something that everybody seemed like they were eager to support and champion in 2020 to a kind of backlash...how we moved from $5 billion in pledges by corporations to support DEI initiatives in 2020 after the George Floyd murder to now where everybody is wanting to roll things back. And yet in the face of this, wanting to roll things back, wanting to respond to the inevitable backlash, there is this commitment still that some companies have had to DEI and workforce development ideas, so nevertheless, ongoing support. For me, that was a bright spot.

Dr. Fumiko Chino: I have to say, as someone who started going to the ASCO Quality Care Symposium as a trainee, I've been really encouraged myself in terms of bright spots for this meeting about the engagement from trainees, from medical students to residents and fellows to early faculty. We even had someone who had just graduated high school ask us one of the questions in a session. And that really highlighted for me that this meeting is a very young meeting. It really is the next generation of health services researchers. And that has always been one of the joys about some of the discussions because I feel like the science presented, the education presented is sparking new collaborations, new research paradigms, new mission driven research for another generation. And it's been just simply phenomenal.

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yeah, the networking opportunities. Wow. It was such a joy to behold people getting together, breaking off in small clusters, interacting with each other, strangers meeting and hitting it off. I mean, just what a wonderful meeting this is.

Dr. Fumiko Chino: Yeah, I have to highlight that. Certainly, at my first ASCO Quality meeting at this point, I think eight years ago, I went to one of those Meet the Expert luncheons, had a great conversation with a phenomenal researcher who I still obviously very much admire. And I was sitting at a table at a Meet the Expert luncheon today. And I just felt so invigorated by some of the conversations that I had with the next generation of researchers about how to define their lane, their passion, and how to continue to advance the field.

Thank you, Ray, for sharing your key takeaways from the 2024 ASCO Quality Care Symposium and for leading a truly robust program this year.

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Thank you, Fumiko. This has been a labor of love as you will find when you take on this responsibility for next year's meeting. This has been my pleasure.

Dr. Fumiko Chino: Thank you so much. I'm really excited about the program that we're going to start planning in Chicago next year. Everyone listening can mark their calendars for October in Chicago. I really want to thank our listeners for your time today. You will find the links to the sessions and the abstracts that we discussed in the transcript of this episode. And if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclaimer:   

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.   

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.  

Follow today’s speakers:

Dr. Fumiko Chino

@fumikochino

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon 

@ROsarogiagbon 

Follow ASCO on social media: 

@ASCO on Twitter 

ASCO on Facebook 

ASCO on LinkedIn 

Disclosures: 

Dr. Fumiko Chino:

No relationships to disclose

Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon:  

Stock and Other Ownership Interests: Lilly, Pfizer, Gillead 

Honoraria: Medscape, Biodesix 

Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, American Cancer Society, Triptych Health Partners, Genetech/Roche, National Cancer Institute, LUNGevity 

Patents, Royalties, Other Intellectual Property: 2 US and 1 China patents for lymph node specimen collection kit and metho of pathologic evaluation  

Other Relationship: Oncobox Device, Inc.

Dr. Lillian Siu and Dr. Melvin Chua discuss the new technologies and novel therapeutics that were featured at the 2024 ASCO Breakthrough meeting.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Lillian Siu: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I'm Dr. Lillian Siu, a medical oncologist and director of the Phase 1 Trials Program at the Princess Margaret Cancer Center in Toronto, Canada, and a professor of medicine at the University of Toronto. On today's episode, we'll be discussing key takeaways from the 2024 ASCO Breakthrough meeting in Yokohama, Japan. Joining me for this discussion is Dr. Melvin Chua, who served as the chair of Breakthrough’s Program Committee. Dr. Chua is the head of the Department for Head, Neck and Thoracic Cancers in the Division of Radiation Oncology at the National Cancer Center in Singapore.

Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode.

Dr. Chua, it's great to be speaking with you today and congratulations on a very successful Breakthrough meeting.

Dr. Melvin Chua: Thanks Dr. Siu. It was really inspiring to come together again to showcase the innovative work of world-renowned experts, clinicians, researchers, med-tech pioneers, and drug developers from around the globe. Our theme this year was inclusivity and thus it was important to bring people together again in the Asia Pacific region and to foster international collaborations that are so important in advancing cancer care. This year, we invited 65 international faculty, of which 55% were from Asia. Also, importantly, we achieved approximately a 50-50 split for male to female representation. These are remarkable statistics for the meeting, and we really hope to retain this for future Breakthrough [meetings].

Dr. Lillian Siu: The meeting featured renowned keynote speakers who shared great insights on new technologies and therapies that are shaping the future of drug development and care delivery. Let's first talk about artificial intelligence and the keynote address by Dr. Andrew Trister. He gave a very interesting talk titled, “Plaiting the Golden Braid: How Artificial Intelligence Informs the Learning Health System.” What are the key messages from his talk?

Dr. Melvin Chua: Couldn’t agree with you more, Dr. Siu. Dr. Trister is the chief medical and scientific officer of Verily, a precision health company. He previously worked in digital health and AI at The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and worked at Apple where he led clinical research and machine learning with Apple partners. But perhaps it was really his background and training as a radiation oncologist that was most pertinent as he was able to weave both the components of new AI models and the applications and pitfalls in the clinic to the audience.

Dr. Trister provided a very high-level view through the history of AI and showcased the progression of the different AI models and he basically explained between deep and shallow methods as well as deductive logic versus inductive probabilistic methods. He then provided several clinical examples where these models have shown their utility in the clinic, for example, pathology and so forth. At the same time, he illustrated several pitfalls with these models. So overall, I think Dr. Trister's talk was very well received by the audience with several key messages, including the importance of [using] high-quality data as the basis of a good AI model.

AI was also addressed in an Education Session that looked at Artificial Intelligence in the Cancer Clinic. And we had a panel of experts that highlighted current progress and successes with AI in the clinic, advances with AI assisted pathology for clinical research and precision medicine, large language models (LLMs) for applications in the clinic, and how we could leverage AI in precision oncology. And from this session, I had several key takeaways. Dr. Alexander Pearson [of the University of Chicago] gave a very illustrative talk on how multimodal information across clinical omics, radiological information and multi omics could be used to improve diagnostic tasks and clinical prediction across different cancers. And Dr. Joe Yeong [of Singapore General Hospital] gave a very good talk on how AI can be applied in digital pathology to accelerate research in immunology and help in the development of immunotherapies. Dr. Danielle Bitterman [of Brigham and Women’s Hospital] shared very good examples of how LLMs could be used in a clinic. And I think the example that really stood out for me was how LLMs could be deployed to create responses to patient queries. And of course, the big question in the room was: How could AI eventually encapsulate compassion in their response? I think this again showcased how LLMs could really help to accelerate our clinical work going forward. And ultimately circling back to data, Dr. Caroline Chung [of MD Anderson] gave a very poignant description on the importance of data quality and how poor-quality data could eventually lead to underperforming AI models. So all in all, I think this was a great session. And what do you think, Dr. Siu?

Dr. Lillian Siu: Melvin, I totally agree with you. I like all your comments and I really enjoyed the keynote as well as the session on AI in the cancer clinic chaired by Dr. Pearson. I think all these sessions were really informative. Discussions on the latest AI and machine learning, algorithms and technologies on digital pathology, LLMs and big data, as you said, really enables the attendees, especially clinicians like me, to gain a deep understanding of how AI can be translated to practical applications.

Dr. Melvin Chua: Great. So, Dr. Siu, let's talk about some of the novel therapeutics that were featured at the meeting. Again, this was an important session for Breakthrough, and it's always been there. So could you share some highlights from the sessions on novel drug development from your perspective?

Dr. Lillian Siu: Yes, indeed. Drug development is such an exciting aspect of this meeting. On Day 3 of the meeting, we had a keynote by Dr. Shimon Sakaguchi of Osaka University, who discussed “Targeting Regulatory T cells (Tregs) in Cancer: The Science, Trials, and Future.” And he talked about T cells, especially Treg biology, the role of Tregs in immune regulation, new developments in Treg immuno-oncology drugs, and how we can actually target Tregs to treat early cancers, etc. This talk is particularly exciting because there are now anti CCR8 antibodies in the clinic that specifically target Tregs, and some early signals of anti-tumor activities are already being observed. Dr. Sakaguchi also emphasized the importance of combination sequence and timing of drugs for the successful use of cancer immunotherapeutic agents.

I also want to emphasize the Education Session that followed, titled, “The Future of Immunotherapy, New Drugs and New Ideas.” In that particular session, we heard about engineering T-cell immunity to eradicate tumors. We heard about CAR T-cell therapy in GI cancers, novel immunotherapeutic combinations, and T-cell engagers, which are bispecifics in cancer. While success with some of these immunotherapeutic modalities, such as cell therapies and T-cell engagers have been largely seen in hematological malignancies, we are beginning to observe efficacy signals in solid tumors. For example, the CAR T targeting Claudin18.2 in gastrointestinal cancers and the recently approved FDA-approved DLL3/CD3 bispecific T-cell engager, tarlatamab, in small cell lung cancer are really exciting examples.

We also heard from investigators who are exploring neoadjuvant therapies in the neoadjuvant therapy session, and the key takeaway from that session is that we have growing interest in using neoadjuvant therapy or perioperative therapy. In other words, neoadjuvant plus adjuvant therapy in different cancers. In the neoadjuvant session, there were updates provided by different experts on the roles of neoadjuvant therapy in melanoma, liver cancer, bladder cancer, and nasopharyngeal cancer. Increasingly, there is randomized trial evidence to support the use of neoadjuvant therapy or perioperative immunotherapy in several cancer types with survival-based endpoints. Very exciting indeed.

Dr. Melvin Chua: Indeed, I couldn't agree with you more. I think one of the things that went into designing the case-based discussions this year was that we wanted to talk about cancers that were relevant to this part of the world and hence we again showcased lung cancers, gastric cancers and melanomas, and whereby we have again perspectives from an expert from the West coupled to an expert from the East, thereby showcasing the diversity of practice around the world. The other thing that we did this year was we decided to pair the case-based discussions with the keynotes and the Education Sessions as well. For example, on Day 3, we had Dr. Sakaguchi speak on Tregs, as you mentioned. And this was followed by an in-depth session on new immunotherapies, and then followed by a case-based discussion on different melanoma cases on the role of neoadjuvant immunotherapy in this disease, and the strikingly relevance of response to prognostication. This is an important trait that we're seeing now that seems to pan out across different cancers, where we find that neoadjuvant response to combination systemic therapies and/or radiotherapy is a strong prognosticator.

Dr. Lillian Siu: So, Dr. Chua, we've discussed some breakthrough treatments and promising advances in cancer care, and we've touched upon some barriers to success in cancer treatment. I would like to ask you about the keynote address by Dr. Raffaella Casolino of the World Health Organization, who spoke passionately about efforts by the WHO and its partners to build equity in cancer care. Can you share some highlights with us?

Dr. Melvin Chua: Absolutely, Dr. Siu. In spite of the tremendous advances we’ve seen in recent years in oncology, there are still major disparities in cancer care, such as cost and access, which affect patients worldwide. I think Dr. Casolino’s talk was a very nice overview whereby she showed, first of all, the WHO's impact in terms of the WHO Cancer Resolution initiative that was implemented in 2017, where through this initiative, WHO has impacted 100 countries, invested $1 billion in funds, and that has led to millions of lives saved. But she then really drilled down to some of the key examples of the focus of the WHO in terms of equalizing care in cancer. I think one which struck me was the appreciation of the disparities in the clinical trials landscape. I think it is clear that there's still a huge barrier to clinical trials between the high- and middle-income countries and the low- and middle-income countries, and the majority of clinical trials these days are industry sponsored and we really need to look at leveling the playing field in this regard.

Then she highlighted the WHO’s work on trying to lower the barriers to precision oncology. And I think there are several issues in that sense, but I think what the WHO has really worked hard on is promoting education for genomic medicine, where they've done several reviews with experts around the world to educate the field across the world on how we interpret and apply genomics in the clinic.

So all in all, it was very interesting to hear Dr. Casolino’s insights from a policy perspective, and again, this emphasizes that there's so much work to be done at the end of the day and the dialogue needs to continue. We also heard about policy, academic and industry perspectives in the context of clinical trials, and that led to a discussion on real-world evidence generation for regulatory approvals. It was very nice that we had a session on that at the end of Breakthrough 2024 (Real-World Evidence and Clinical Trials: Beyond the Ivory Tower). And in that session, we heard from Dr. Shaalan Beg [of the NIH], and Dr. Janet Dancey [of Queen’s University] who represented views from academia and Dr. Hidetoshi Hayashi [of Kindai University Hospital] shared perspectives on decentralized trials. I’d like to encourage our listeners to watch these sessions if they were unable to attend. The content is very rich, and I'm sure they'll learn from it.

Dr. Lillian Siu: Thank you so much, Dr. Chua. Is there anything else you would like to cover before we wrap up the podcast today?

Dr. Melvin Chua: Thank you, Dr. Siu. The thing I really want to emphasize is, apart from all these Educational Sessions and having very eminent keynote speakers, one of the key points that we really want to bring out for Breakthrough is to showcase the high-quality research. This year we had 300 abstracts submitted and they were all high quality, cutting across trials, omics research, AI and technology, and eventually we selected 235 of them and we were able to showcase some of them across three oral sessions over three days. I think this is an important component of Breakthrough that we really wish to continue building upon where people are now excited to use this forum to present their work.

Dr. Lillian Siu: Thank you so much, Dr. Chua. I really enjoyed our discussions today. I look forward to seeing how the Breakthrough meeting will continue to grow in future years.

Dr. Melvin Chua: Thank you again, Dr. Siu. Thank you for all your leadership and efforts in making Breakthrough a successful meeting series the past few years.

Dr. Lillian Siu: Thank you to our listeners for your time today. You'll find links to the session discussed today in the transcript of this episode. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Thank you.

Disclaimer:

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Find out more about today’s speakers: 

 Dr. Lilian Siu 

@lillian_siu 

Dr. Melvin Chua 

@DrMLChua 

Follow ASCO on social media:   

@ASCO on Twitter   

ASCO on Facebook   

ASCO on LinkedIn   

Disclosures:  

Dr. Lillian Siu: 

Leadership (Immediate family member): Treadwell Therapeutics 

Stock and Other Ownership Interests (Immediate family member): Agios   

Consulting or Advisory Role: Merck, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Roche, Voronoi Inc., Oncorus, GSK, Seattle Genetics, Arvinas, Navire, Janpix, Relay Therapeutics, Daiichi Sankyo/UCB Japan, Janssen, Research Funding (Institution): Bristol-Myers Squibb, Genentech/Roche, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Novartis, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Boehringer Ingelheim, Bayer, Amgen, Astellas Pharma, Shattuck Labs, Symphogen, Avid, Mirati Therapeutics, Karyopharm Therapeutics, Amgen 

 Dr. Melvin Chua: 

Leadership, Stock and Other Ownership Interests: Digital Life Line 

Honoraria: Janssen Oncology, Varian 

Consulting or Advisory Role: Janssen Oncology, Merck Sharp & Dohme, ImmunoSCAPE, Telix Pharmaceuticals, IQVIA, BeiGene 

Speakers’ Bureau: AstraZeneca, Bayer, Pfizer, Janssen  

Research Funding: PVmed, Decipher Biosciences, EVYD Technology, MVision, BeiGene, EVYD Technology, MVision, BeiGene 

Patents, Royalties, Other Intellectual Property: High Sensitivity Lateral Flow Immunoassay for Detection of Analyte in Samples (10202107837T), Singapore. (Danny Jian Hang Tng, Chua Lee Kiang Melvin, Zhang Yong, Jenny Low, Ooi Eng Eong, Soo Khee Chee)  

Dr. Shaalan Beg and Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla discuss the potential of artificial intelligence to assist with patient recruitment and clinical trial matching using real-world data and next-generation sequencing results.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Shaalan Beg: Hello, and welcome to the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I'm Dr. Shaalan Beg, your guest host for the podcast today. I'm an adjunct associate professor at UT Southwestern's Simmons Comprehensive Cancer Center in Dallas and senior advisor for clinical research at the National Cancer Institute. On today's episode, we will be discussing the promise of artificial intelligence to improve patient recruitment in clinical trials and advanced clinical research. Joining me for this discussion is Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla, the medical director of oncology research at Capital Health in Philadelphia. He's also the co-founder and chief medical officer at Massive Bio, an AI-driven platform that matches patients with clinical trials and novel therapies. 

Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode.  

Arturo, it's great to have you on the podcast today. 

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla: Thanks so much, Shaalan. It's great to be here and talking to you today. 

Dr. Shaalan Beg: So we're all familiar with the limitations and inefficiencies in patient recruitment for clinical trials, but there are exciting new technologies that are addressing these challenges. Your group developed a first-in-class, AI-enabled matching system that's designed to automate and expedite processes using real-world data and integrating next-generation sequencing results into the algorithm. You presented work at the ASCO Annual Meeting this year where you showed the benefits of AI and NGS in clinical trial matching and you reported about a twofold increase in potential patient eligibility for trials. Can you tell us more about this study? 

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla: Absolutely. And this is just part of the work that we have seen over the last several years, trying to overcome challenges that are coming because of all these, as you mentioned, inefficiencies and limitations, particularly in the manual patient trial matching. This is very time consuming, as all of us know; many of those in the audience as well experience it on a daily basis, and it’s resource intensive. It takes specialized folks who are able to understand the nuances in oncology, and it takes, on average, even for the most experienced research coordinator or principal investigator oncologist, 25 minutes per trial. Not only on top of that, but in compound there's a lack of comprehensive genomic testing, NGS, and that complicates the process in terms of inability to know what patients are eligible for, and it can delay also the process even further. 

So, to address those issues, we at Massive Bio are working with other institutions, and we're part of this … called the Precision Cancer Consortium, which is a combination of 7 of the top 20 top pharma companies in oncology, and we got them together. And let's say, okay, the only way to show something that is going to work at scale is people have to remove their silos and barriers and work as a collaborative approach. If we're going to be able to get folks tested more often and in more patients, assess for clinical trials, at least as an option, we need to understand further the data. And after a bunch of efforts that happened, and you're also seeing those efforts in CancerX and other things that we're working on together, but what we realize here is using an AI-enabled matching system to basically automate and expedite the process using what we call real-world data, which is basically data from patients that are actually currently being treated, and integrating any NGS results and comparing that to what we can potentially do manually. The idea was to do multi-trial matching, because if we do it for one study, yeah, it will be interesting, but it will not show the potential applicability in the real world. 

So with all that background, the tool itself, just to give you the punchline of it, was proven highly effective in terms of efficiency. We were able to increase the number of potential matches, and not only that, but reducing the time to the matching. So basically, instead of spending 25 minutes, it could be done in a matter of seconds. And when you compound all that across multiple clinical trials, in this case, it was several sponsors coming together, we were able to reduce the manual effort of seeing patients and testing for clinical trials to basically 1 hour when it would have otherwise taken a ridiculous amount of time. And it was quantified as 19,500 hours of manual work, compared to 1 hour done by the system to uniquely match a cohort of about 5,600 patients that came into the platform. And this was across 23 trials. Now imagine if we can do it for the 14,000 clinical trials currently in clinicaltrials.gov.  

So for us, this kind of was an eye-opening situation that if we can increase not only the efficiency but find even more trials by integrating comprehensive genomic testing, which in this case was a twofold increase in eligibility for clinical trials, that gives us not only the opportunity for optimized processes using AI but also a call to action that there is still a lot of under-genotyping. And I know American Cancer Society and ASCO and many others are working hard on getting that into fruition, but we need to have systems that remind us that certain patients are not tested yet and that can improve not only real patients, but the R&D and the process of innovation in the future.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: Yeah, it's always an important reminder that even some of the highest impact IT solutions or AI solutions are most effective if they can be integrated into our normal clinical processes and into the normal workflow that we have in our clinics to help clinicians do their work quickly and more efficiently.

Can you talk about how, over the last few years, the availability of NGS data in our electronic medical record (EMR) has evolved and whether that's evolving for the better? And what are some next steps in terms of making that data available at EMR so that such solutions can then pull that data out and do clinical trial matching? 

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla: Yes. So one of the things that we have seen over the last couple of years is because of the applicability of the 21st Century Cures Act, there is less “information blocking,” which is patients not being able to access their information in real time. Now, with the appearance of health exchanges, with patient-centric approaches, which is something that many innovators, including ours, are trying to apply, it's really becoming more relevant. So it's not only helping us to find the patients when they really need to get tested, but also is giving us the opportunity to put those patients into the right treatment pathway when found.

Something that's still a challenge and I think we can work by being more collaborative once again – is my dream – is having these pre-screening hubs where no matter where you are in your cancer journey, you just go into that funnel and then are able to see, “Okay, you are in the second-line setting for non-small cell lung cancer, EGFR-mutated. Now, do you have a meta amplification, then you go for this study or this trial. Oh, you haven't been tested yet. You should get tested. You're a pancreas cancer patient who is KRAS wild type; well, there is a significant chance that you may have a biomarker because that's where most patients are enriched for.”

So having that opportunity to at scale, just for the whole country, to get those patients access to that information, I think is crucial for the future of oncology. And I think you working at the NCI, more than most, know how the impact of that can help for those underrepresented patients to get more access to better treatment options and whatnot. And we can activate clinical trials as well in new models, decentralized models, adjusting time models, all those things can be leveraged by using biomarker testing in real time. Identification when the patient really needs a trial option or a medication option, because the data is telling us when to activate that in real time.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: And identifying the patient for a potential clinical trial is one challenge. In oncology, given a lot of our trials, we are looking to enroll people at a specific time in their disease journey. So we call it first-line or second-line or third-line, becomes the next challenge. So just knowing someone has mutation number 1, 2, or 3 isn't enough to say they would be eligible for a second-line BRAF X, Y and Z mutation at a given trial. I've heard you talk a lot about this last-mile navigation for people once you've identified that they may be a soft match for a clinical trial. Can you talk about what you've seen in the ecosystem being developed on how AI is helping both clinics and patients navigate this last mile from the time they're identified for a clinical trial to the time they actually receive cycle 1, day 1?

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla: Yeah, absolutely. And that is such a critical point because, as you know, we have helped tons of patients getting trial options in thousands of cases. But even my own patients, I give them a report for trial options and they're like, “Okay, I still need help.” And we have been talking with ASCO, with the American Cancer Society, and many other very good teams, and what we see as an opportunity in technology here is leveraging those cancer journeys to know when the patient really has the opportunity to enroll in a trial, because this is a very dynamic environment. Not only the patient's condition changes because their cancer progresses, the hemoglobin changes, the cancer moves from one place to the other, and there's nuances in between, but also new medications are coming up, studies open and close, sites open and close. 

So having this information as a hub, as what we call a command center, is the key to make this happen. And we can use the same tools that we use for Uber or for Instacart or whichever thing you want to do; it's already the same concept. When you need groceries, you don't need groceries every day. But Amazon gives you a ding that’s like, “Well, I think you may be running out of milk,” because they already know how often you buy it, or just having the data behind the scenes of how typically these, in this case, patient journeys, may manifest based on the biomarker. So let's say a smoldering multiple myeloma is not the same across. One patient with biomarkers that make them very high risk, the risk of progressing to a multiple myeloma, first-line treatment-eligible patient is going to be much different than someone who has better risk cytogenetics. So using that tool to optimize the cancer journeys of those patients and being able to notify them in real time of new trial options, and also knowing when the patient really has that disease progression so there's a time of activation for trial matching again, the same way you get a credit score for buying a house, then you know exactly what options are in front of you at that very moment. And that is the last-mile component, which is going to be key.

What we have seen that we feel is important to invest on, and we have invested heavily on it, is that until the patient doesn't sign the consent form for the clinical trial, that patient is completely unknown to most people. The site doesn't know them because they haven't been there, and they may be there, but they don't know about the options sometimes. But no one's going to invest in getting that patient to the finish line. There's a lot of support for patients on trials, but not before they enroll on trials. And we feel that this is a big opportunity to really exponentially grow the chances of patients enrolling in trials if we support them all the way from the very time they get diagnosed with cancer in any setting. And we can help that patient on a very unique journey to find the trial options using technology. So it's very feasible. We see it once again in many other equally complex tasks, so why not do it in oncology when we have all the bonafides across wanting to do this.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: Can you give examples of where you are seeing it done outside of oncology that's a model that one can replicate?

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla: I mean, oncology is the toughest use case to crack. You have experiences with DCTs in the past and all that. So the big opportunities are for patients, for example, in psychiatry, when they need certain counseling and help. We see that also in medical devices, when people have diabetes and they really need a device specifically for that unique situation, or also for patients with cardiovascular risk that they can in real time get access to novel therapeutics. And that's how they have been able to enroll so quickly. And all these GLP-1 inhibitors, all those models are really almost completely decentralized nowadays in something that we can extrapolate for oncology once we have aligned the ecosystem to make it see them. This is something that we can really revolutionize care while we manage all the complex variables that typically come with oncology uses. 

Dr. Shaalan Beg: I would imagine while you translate those learnings from outside of oncology into oncology, a lot of those processes will be human and AI combination activities. And as you learn more and more, the human component becomes a smaller fraction, and the technology and the AI becomes more of a component. Are you seeing a similar transition in the clinical trial matching space as well?

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla: Yes. So that's why people say humans are going to be replaced. They're not. Patients still want to see a human face that they recognize, they trust. Even family members of mine want to hear from me, even if they are in the top place in the world. What we can change with technology are those things that are typically just friction points. In this case, information gathering, collecting records, getting the data structured in a way that we can use it for matching effectively, knowing in real time when the patient progresses, so we can really give them the chances of knowing what's available in real time. And collecting the information from all these other stakeholders. Like, is the site open? Is the budget approved for that place? Is the insurance allowing the specific … do they have e-consent? Those things can be fully automated because they're just burdensome. They're not helping anyone. And we can really make it decentralized for e-consent, for just getting a screening. They don't need to be screened at the site for something that they're going to receive standard of care. We can really change that, and that's something that we're seeing in the space that is changing, and hopefully we can translate it fully in oncology once we are getting the word out. And I think this is a good opportunity to do so.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: You talked about your dream scenario for clinical trial matching. When you think about your dream scenario as a practicing oncologist, what are the AI tools that you are most excited about making their way into the clinic, either wishful thinking or practically?

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla: I typically get feedback from all over the place on doing this, and I also have my own thoughts. But I always come to this for a reason. We all became physicians and oncologists because we like being physicians. We like to talk to patients. We want to spend the time. I tell folks in my clinic, I will see a thousand patients all the time as long as I don't have to do notes, as long as I don't have to place orders. But of course, they will have to hire 1,000 people ancillary to do all the stuff that we do. 

If we can go back and spend all that time that we use on alert fatigue, on clicking, on gathering things, fighting insurance, and really helping align those incentives with clinical trials and biomarker testing and really making it a mankind or a humankind situation where we're all in this really together to solve the problem, which is cancer, that will be my dream come true. So I don't have to do anything that is clerical, that is not really helping me, but I want to use that AI to liberate me from that and also use the data that is generated for better insights.

I think that I know my subject of expertise, but there's so many things happening all the time that it is hard to keep up, no matter how smart you are. If the tool can give me insights that I didn't even know, then leverage that as a CME or a board certification, that would be a dream come true. Of course, I'm just dreaming here, but it's feasible. Many of these ideas, as I mentioned, they're not new. The key thing is getting them done. The innovative part is getting stuff done, because I'm sure there's a gazillion people who have the same ideas as I did, but they just don't know whom to talk to or who is going to make it happen in reality. And that's my call to action to people: Let's work together and make this happen.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: Well, Arturo, thanks a lot for sharing your insights with us today on the ASCO Daily News Podcast.

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla: Well, thank you so much for the time and looking forward to having more exchanges and conversations and seeing everyone in the field.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: And thank you to our listeners for your time today. You'll find a link to the studies discussed today in the transcript of this episode. And if you value the insights that you hear on the podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclaimer:

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Find out more about today’s speakers: 

Dr. Shaalan Beg   

@ShaalanBeg

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla

@DrBonillaOnc

Follow ASCO on social media:

@ASCO on Twitter  

ASCO on Facebook  

ASCO on LinkedIn  

Disclosures:   

Dr. Arturo Loaiza-Bonilla:

Leadership: Massive Bio

Stock and Other Ownership Interests: Massive Bio

Consulting or Advisory Role: Massive Bio, Bayer, PSI, BrightInsight, Cardinal Health, Pfizer, Eisai, AstraZeneca, Regeneron, Verily, Medscape

Speakers’ Bureau: Guardant Health, Bayer, Amgen, Ipsen, AstraZeneca/Daiichi Sankyo, Natera

Dr. Shaalan Beg:   

Consulting or Advisory Role: Ispen, Cancer Commons, Foundation Medicine, Genmab/Seagen   

Speakers’ Bureau: Sirtex   

Research Funding (An Immediate Family Member): ImmuneSensor Therapeutics   

Research Funding (Institution): Bristol-Myers Squibb, Tolero Pharmaceuticals, Delfi Diagnostics, Merck, Merck Serono, AstraZeneca/MedImmune

Dr. Allison Zibelli and Dr. Erika Hamilton discuss the results of the DESTINY-Breast06 trial in HR+, HER2-low and HER2-ultralow metastatic breast cancer and the A-BRAVE trial in early triple-negative breast cancer, the results of which were both presented at the 2024 ASCO Annual Meeting.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Allison Zibelli: Hello, I'm Dr. Allison Zibelli, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I'm an associate professor of medicine and breast medical oncologist at the Sidney Kimmel Cancer Center of Jefferson Health in Philadelphia. My guest today is Dr. Erika Hamilton, a medical oncologist and director of breast cancer research at the Sarah Cannon Research Institute. We'll be discussing the DESTINY-Breast06 trial, which showed a progression-free advantage with the antibody-drug conjugate trastuzumab deruxtecan (T-DXd) compared to chemotherapy in hormone receptor-positive HER2-low or HER2-ultralow metastatic breast cancer. We'll address the implications of this study for the community, including the importance of expanding pathology assessments to include all established subgroups with HER2 expression, and the promise of expanding eligibility for antibody-drug conjugates. We'll also highlight advances in triple-negative breast cancer, focusing on the A-BRAVE trial, the first study reporting data on an immune checkpoint inhibitor avelumab in patients with triple-negative breast cancer with invasive residual disease after neoadjuvant chemotherapy. 

Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode. 

Erika, it's great to have you on the podcast today.

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Thanks so much, Allison. Happy to join.

Dr. Allison Zibelli: Antibody-drug conjugates are rapidly changing the treatment landscape in breast cancer. The data from the DESTINY-Breast06 trial suggests that trastuzumab deruxtecan may become a preferred first-line treatment option for most patients with HER2-low or HER2-ultralow metastatic breast cancer after progression on endocrine therapy. First, could you remind our listeners, what's the definition of HER2-ultralow and what were the findings of this trial?

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Yeah, those are fantastic questions. Ultralow really has never been talked about before. Ultralow is part of a subset of the IHC zeros. So it's those patients that have HER2-tumor staining that's less than 10% and incomplete but isn't absolutely zero. It's even below that +1 or +2 IHC that we have classified as HER2-low. Now, I think what's important to remember about D-B06, if you recall, D-B04 (DESTINY-Breast04) was our trial looking at HER2-low, is that D-B06 now included HER2-low as well as this HER2-ultralow category that you asked about. And it also moved trastuzumab deruxtecan up into the frontline. If you recall, D-B04 was after 1 line of cytotoxic therapy. So now this is really after exhausting endocrine therapy before patients have received other chemotherapy.

And what we saw was an improvement in progression-free survival that was pretty significant: 13.2 months versus 8.1 months, it was a hazard ratio of 0.62. And you can ask yourself, “well, was it mainly those HER2-low patients that kind of drove that benefit? What about the ultralow category?” And when we look at ultralow, it was no different: 13.2 months versus 8.3 months, hazard ratio, again, highly significant. So I think it's really encouraging data and gives us some information about using this drug earlier for our patients with hormone receptor-positive but HER2-negative disease. 

Dr. Allison Zibelli: I thought this study was really interesting because it's a patient population that I find very difficult to treat, the hormone receptor-positive metastatic patient that's not responding to endocrine therapy anymore. But it's important to mention that T-DXd resulted in more serious toxicities compared to traditional chemotherapy in this study. So how do you choose which patients to offer this to?

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Yeah, those are both great points. So you're right, this is after endocrine therapy. And in fact, about 85% of these patients had received at least 2 prior lines of endocrine therapy. So I have some people kind of asking, “Well, if endocrine therapy really isn't benefiting everyone in the second-line setting post-CDK, should we just move to the ADCs?” And, no, probably we should really make sure that we're exhausting endocrine therapies for those patients that are going to benefit. And once we determine somebody has endocrine-resistant disease, that's when we would think about switching.

In terms of the side effects, I think you're right. It's mainly ILD that's probably the more serious side effect that we worry about a little bit with trastuzumab deruxtecan. The good news is, through multiple trials, we've gotten a little bit better at managing this. We've pretty much all but eliminated any fatal cases of ILD, definitely less than 1% now. ILD rates, depending on what study you look for, kind of ranges in that 10% to 15% range. Any grade ILD on D-B06 was 11.3%. So really kind of making sure that we look for ILD at scans, making sure that patients are educated to tell us about any new pulmonary symptoms: cough, exertional dyspnea, shortness of breath at rest, etc. But I think the most common side effects that we really deal with on a daily basis with trastuzumab deruxtecan, luckily, is nausea, which we've gotten better at managing with the 2- or 3-drug antiemetic regimen, and probably a little bit of fatigue as well.

Dr. Allison Zibelli: Thank you. So, I think for most people in the community, the sticking point here will be expanding pathology assessments to include all of the subgroups, including the ultralow. Most patients in the community are not testing for HER2-low and HER2-ultralow now.

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Historically, we kind of all did HER2 IHC, right? And then as FISH became available, there were a lot of institutions that moved to FISH and maybe didn't have IHC anymore. And now, at least in my institution, we do both. But I think it's a very important point that you made that IHC was really designed to pick out those patients that have HER2-high, the 3 pluses or the FISH amplified cases. It was not to tell the difference between a 1+ or a 2+ or a 0 that's not quite a 0 and a 1+. So I think you're right. I think this is tough. I probably have a little bit more of an interesting take on this than some people will. But data from ASCO, not this year but in 2023, there was actually a pretty eloquent study presented where they looked at serial biopsies in patients, and essentially, if you got up to 4 or 5 biopsies, you were guaranteed to have a HER2-low result. Now, this didn't even include ultralow, which is even easier. If we know we include ultralow, we're really talking about probably 85% to 90% of our patients now that have some HER2 expression. But if we biopsy enough, we're guaranteed to get a HER2 low. 

And so I think the question really is, if we know IHC wasn't really designed to pick out these ultralows, and we know kind of greater than 90% of patients are going to have some expression, did we kind of develop this drug a little bit backwards? Because we thought we understood HER2, and the reality is this drug is a little bit more like a sacituzumab govitecan, where we don't test for the TROP2. Should we really be kind of serial biopsying these patients or should maybe most patients have access to at least trying this drug? 

Dr. Allison Zibelli: So I don't think that most of my patients will really be happy to sign up for serial biopsies.

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Agreed.

Dr. Allison Zibelli: Do we have any emerging technologies for detecting low levels of HER2? You talked about how the IHC test isn't really designed to detect low levels of HER2. Do you think newer detection techniques such as immunofluorescence will make a difference, or will we have liquid biopsy testing for this?

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Yeah, I think liquid biopsy may be a little bit hard, just because some of those circulating tumor cells are more of a mesenchymal-type phenotype and don't necessarily express all of the same receptors. Normally, if they're cytokeratin-positive, they do, but certainly there is a lot out there looking at more sensitive measures. You mentioned immunofluorescence, there are some even more quantitative measures looking at lower levels of HER2. I definitely think there will be. I guess, ultimately, with even the IHC zeros that are the less than 10% incomplete staining, having a PFS that was absolutely no different than the HER2 low, I guess the question is, how low can we really go? We know that even the IHC zeros doesn't mean that there's no HER2 expression on the cell surface. It just means that maybe there's a couple of thousand as opposed to 10,000 or 100,000 copies of HER2. And so it really appears that perhaps this drug really is wedded to having a lot of HER2 expression. So ultimately, I wonder how much we're going to have to use those tests, especially with what we know about tumor heterogeneity. We know that if we biopsy 1 lesion in the liver, biopsy a lymph node, or even another lesion in the liver, that the HER2 results can have some heterogeneity. And so ultimately, my guess is that most people have some HER2 expression on their breast cancer cells.

Dr. Allison Zibelli: So maybe we're going to be using this for everybody in the future.

Dr. Erika Hamilton: It certainly seems like we keep peeling back the onion and including more and more patients into the category that are eligible to receive this. I agree.

Dr. Allison Zibelli: Let's move on to triple-negative breast cancer, namely the A-BRAVE trial. This was an interesting trial for patients that did not get neoadjuvant immunotherapy and testing 2 groups. The first group was those with residual disease after neoadjuvant conventional chemotherapy. The second group was people with high-risk disease identified upfront that had upfront surgery. The study found that adjuvant avelumab did not improve disease-free survival versus observation, which was the study's primary endpoint. But interestingly, there was a significant improvement in 3-year overall survival and distant disease-free survival. Can you give us your thoughts on that?

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Yeah, I think this study was really interesting. Right now, the standard for our patients with larger or node-positive triple-negative cancers is KEYNOTE-522. It's a pretty tough regimen. It's kind of 2 sequential uses of 2 chemotherapies, so 4 chemotherapy agents total with pembrolizumab. But you're right, this study looked at those that had residual disease after neoadjuvant that didn't include immunotherapy, or those patients that didn't get neoadjuvant therapy, went to surgery, and then were receiving chemotherapy on the back end. I'm going to give you the numbers, because you're right. The 3-year disease-free survival rates were not statistically significant. It was 68.3% among those that had avelumab, 63.2% with those that had observation only. So the difference was 5.1% in favor of avelumab, but it wasn't statistically significant. A p value of 0.1, essentially. But when we looked at the 3-year overall survival rates, we saw the same pattern, those patients with the avelumab doing better, but it was 84.8% overall survival and not, unfortunately, dying, versus 76.3%. So the magnitude of benefit there was 8.5%, so about 3% higher than we saw for disease-free survival, and this was statistically significant.

 So is this going to change practice for most patients? I probably don't think so. I think for our patients that have larger tumors that's recognized upfront or have node positivity, we're probably going to want to use neoadjuvant chemo. Being able to get a PCR is very prognostic for our patients and enables us to offer things on the back end, such as PARP inhibitors or further chemotherapy of a different type of chemotherapy. But for our patients that go to surgery and maybe the extent of their disease just isn't recognized initially, this could be an option.

Dr. Allison Zibelli: I agree. I think this will be a really useful regimen for patients where we get the surprise lymph node that we weren't expecting, or somebody who comes to us, maybe without seeing the medical oncologist, who got upfront surgery. So I thought this was really interesting. What kind of translational studies do you think we're going to do to try and understand which patients would benefit from avelumab?

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Yeah, I think that's a great question, and honestly, it's a question that we haven't really answered in the neoadjuvant setting either. Immunotherapy in breast cancer is just a little bit different than it is in some other diseases. We have a benefit for those patients that are PD-L1 positive in the first line. We really haven't seen benefit for metastatic outside of first line. And then in neoadjuvant, it was among all comers. We don't have to test for PD-L1. And now we have this avelumab data from A-BRAVE. I think the question is, is there’s probably a subset of patients that are really getting benefit and a subset that aren't. And I don't know that PD-L1 testing is the right test. We know a lot of people are looking at TILs, so kind of lymphocytes that are infiltrating the tumor, a variety of other kind of immunologic markers. But my guess is that eventually we're going to get smart enough to tease out who actually needs the immunotherapy versus who isn't going to benefit. But we're not quite there yet.

Dr. Allison Zibelli: Thank you, Erika, for sharing your valuable insights with us on the ASCO Daily News Podcast today.

Dr. Erika Hamilton: Thanks so much for having me. 

Dr. Allison Zibelli: And thank you to our listeners for joining us. You'll find the links to all the abstracts discussed today in the transcript of this episode. Finally, if you like this podcast and you value our insights, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps other people to find us. So thank you very much for listening today.

Disclaimer:  

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.  

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. 

Find out more about today’s speakers: 

Dr. Allison Zibelli

Dr. Erika Hamilton

@ErikaHamilton9

Follow ASCO on social media: 

@ASCO on Twitter   

ASCO on Facebook   

ASCO on LinkedIn   

Disclosures:

Dr. Allison Zibelli: 

None Disclosed

Dr. Erika Hamilton:

Consulting or Advisory Role (Inst): Pfizer, Genentech/Roche, Lilly, Daiichi Sankyo, Mersana, AstraZeneca, Novartis, Ellipses Pharma, Olema Pharmaceuticals, Stemline Therapeutics, Tubulis, Verascity Science, Theratechnologies, Accutar Biotechnology, Entos, Fosun Pharma, Gilead Sciences, Jazz Pharmaceuticals, Medical Pharma Services, Hosun Pharma, Zentalis Pharmaceuticals, Jefferies, Tempus Labs, Arvinas, Circle Pharma, Janssen, Johnson and Johnson

Research Funding (Inst): AstraZeneca, Hutchison MediPharma, OncoMed, MedImmune, Stem CentRx, Genentech/Roche, Curis, Verastem, Zymeworks, Syndax, Lycera, Rgenix, Novartis, Millenium, TapImmune, Inc., Lilly, Pfizer, Lilly, Pfizer, Tesaro, Boehringer Ingelheim, H3 Biomedicine, Radius Health, Acerta Pharma, Macrogenics, Abbvie, Immunomedics, Fujifilm, eFFECTOR Therapeutics, Merus, Nucana, Regeneron, Leap Therapeutics, Taiho Pharmaceuticals, EMD Serono, Daiichi Sankyo, ArQule, Syros Pharmaceuticals, Clovis Oncology, CytomX Therapeutics, InventisBio, Deciphera, Sermonix Pharmaceuticals, Zenith Epigentics, Arvinas, Harpoon, Black Diamond, Orinove, Molecular Templates, Seattle Genetics, Compugen, GI Therapeutics, Karyopharm Therapeutics, Dana-Farber Cancer Hospital, Shattuck Labs, PharmaMar, Olema Pharmaceuticals, Immunogen, Plexxikon, Amgen, Akesobio Australia, ADC Therapeutics, AtlasMedx, Aravive, Ellipses Pharma, Incyte, MabSpace Biosciences, ORIC Pharmaceuticals, Pieris Pharmaceuticals, Pieris Pharmaceuticals, Pionyr, Repetoire Immune Medicines, Treadwell Therapeutics, Accutar Biotech, Artios, Bliss Biopharmaceutical, Cascadian Therapeutics, Dantari, Duality Biologics, Elucida Oncology, Infinity Pharmaceuticals, Relay Therapeutics, Tolmar, Torque, BeiGene, Context Therapeutics, K-Group Beta, Kind Pharmaceuticals, Loxo Oncology, Oncothyreon, Orum Therapeutics, Prelude Therapeutics, Profound Bio, Cullinan Oncology, Bristol-Myers Squib, Eisai, Fochon Pharmaceuticals, Gilead Sciences, Inspirna, Myriad Genetics, Silverback Therapeutics, Stemline Therapeutics

Dr. Shaalan Beg and Dr. Arjun Gupta discuss the rationale behind treatment breaks and assess the pros and cons based on feedback and data from patients with advanced-stage gastrointestinal cancers.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Shaalan Beg: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I'm Dr. Shaalan Beg, an adjunct associate professor at UT Southwestern's Simmons Comprehensive Cancer Center in Dallas and senior advisor for clinical research at the National Cancer Institute. I'll be your guest host for the podcast today. 

On today's episode, we'll be discussing treatment holidays in GI cancers. Treatment holidays, also known as drug holidays, are increasingly being discussed in clinical practice and involve voluntarily halting treatment for a duration determined by a health care provider if believed to be beneficial for a patient's well-being. We'll address the rationale behind treatment holidays and explore their potential risks and benefits. Joining me for this discussion is Dr. Arjun Gupta, a GI medical oncologist and health services researcher at the University of Minnesota. Dr. Gupta's research on treatment-related time toxicity has explored the benefits of taking a break from treatment. 

Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode. 

Arjun, it's great to have you on the podcast today.

Dr. Arjun Gupta: Thanks, Shaalan. It's a joy to be here.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: Your research at the intersection of oncology, supportive care, and care delivery is extremely interesting and important in today's day and age. And you've done extensive work on the concept of time toxicity in cancer treatment. So as we think about these discussions in the clinic on treatment holidays and we talk about risks and benefits, I was hoping that you could help explain the concept of time toxicity in cancer treatment and what our listeners should remember from this.

Dr. Arjun Gupta: Sure. So time toxicity is simply the time commitments that cancer care imposes on people with cancer and their loved ones, and the burden that comes along with these commitments. When we specifically think about time toxicity associated with a particular cancer treatment, such as chemotherapy, it's the time costs of pursuing, receiving, and recovering from cancer treatment. Now, we have to acknowledge that much of cancer care is essential. We need blood tests to monitor organ function, we need chemo to shrink tumors, and we need a caring oncologist to break bad news. But we have to remember that oncology care is delivered in an imperfect world. Appointments that should take 10 minutes can take 5 hours. People can have uncoordinated appointments, so they're coming to the clinic 3, 4, 5 times a week. And this affects, of course, not only the patient themselves but also their informal care partners and the entire network around them. And this cancer care can completely consume people's lives, leaving no time for rest, recovery, or pursuing joyful activities. 

We interviewed patients and care partners in some qualitative work, and this was specifically people with advanced-stage gastrointestinal cancers. And we asked them what cancer care was like, and some of the words will shock you. People said things like, “It's like being on a leash.” “My life is like being on an extended COVID lockdown.” “Cancer is a full-time job.” A very experienced oncologist said, “It's like being on call. You may or not get called into the hospital, but you need to always be available.” And so this concept of time toxicity really applies to all people with cancer, but perhaps most so for people with advanced-stage, incurable cancer, when time is limited and when treatment regimens are perhaps not offering massive survival benefits. And in some cases, the time costs of pursuing the treatment can even overtake the very marginal survival benefit offered by the treatment.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: This is particularly relevant for gastrointestinal cancers that, even in the world of advanced cancers, are highly burdensome in terms of their symptoms and the concept of being on call, whether you're a patient or a caregiver, and the burden that it has, I think will resonate with a lot of us, that it's always in the back of our mind on what if X, Y or Z were to happen? In the FOCUS4-N trial, a randomized trial from the UK, investigators assessed whether taking a treatment holiday for maintenance therapy for metastatic colorectal cancer would have a detrimental effect on progression free survival, overall survival, tolerability and toxicity. It looks like the study found that these decisions regarding maintenance therapy should be individualized, but there were not major differences in outcome. Can you comment on this and what applications that has for us in the clinic? 

Dr. Arjun Gupta: Sure. But before diving into the FOCUS4-N clinical trial, I just wanted to share a story from the clinic yesterday. It happened in my clinic yesterday, but I'm sure it happens to thousands of patients across the world every single day. So it was the first visit for a patient with stage 4 colon cancer, and they had polymetastatic disease with disease in the lungs and the liver, no actionable biomarkers, and so very likely to be incurable. And so we discussed the usual port and palliative care appointments and chemotherapy backbone, and doing this every 2 weeks, and then doing scans after 4 to 6 doses of chemo to see how the cancer has responded. And then the patient looks up and asks that question, “Okay. So when does this end? When are we done? Do I need to do this forever and the rest of my life?” These are just such innocent and hopeful questions, because the truth is, there is no established end date. But I shared this story that right off the bat, people are looking for breaks. They've not even started chemo, they've not experienced physical or financial or time toxicity, but just psychologically, being on chemo long-term or forever is a very, very hard adjustment.

 And so it's in this context that we should look at the FOCUS4-N clinical trial, which was a sub- study of a larger umbrella trial investigating whether continuing on maintenance chemo with oral capecitabine versus taking a treatment break from chemo affected the progression-free survival in people with metastatic colorectal cancer who had disease control after 4 to 6 months of upfront chemotherapy. So they randomized approximately 250 people. These people had largely been treated with FOLFOX or FOLFIRI. Most did not receive a biologic, and approximately half had partial response and half had stable disease. And then they did scans on these patients every two months or so. And the primary endpoint was progression free survival. The median PFS was approximately 4 months in the capecitabine arm and 2 months in the no treatment arm. Of course, as expected, side effects were higher in the capecitabine arm. But impressively, the overall survival was not different between these two arms. So what we're seeing here is that after this period of 4 to 6 months of intensive chemo, if we take a chemo break versus we get some oral chemotherapy, it may affect how quickly the cancer grows on scans, but it maybe does not affect how long patients live. 

Now, how do these data apply for an individual patient? Now, these are incredibly nuanced and personal decisions and patients can and should choose what aligns best with their values. In some work done by Dr. Mike Brundage and colleagues in Canada, they asked 100 people with advanced cancer to consider hypothetical scenarios where a new treatment did not increase the overall survival, but potentially increased the progression free survival at the cost of some physical and other toxicities. And then they asked patients if and what PFS thresholds they would accept for this treatment. And around half of patients said no matter how big the PFS is, we do not want to accept the treatment because it causes some toxicity if I'm not going to live longer. Around a quarter of patients said that if the drug elongated progression free survival by three to six months, I would take it, because that's valuable to me even if I don't live longer. But surprisingly, 1 in 6 patients said that they would accept a treatment with no PFS benefit and no overall survival benefit, even at the cost of side effects. And there was a spectrum of reasons for these preferences that they maybe had the battle narrative that “I want to be a fighter, and I don't want to have any regrets,” just showing how complex people's attitudes and values can be. So the point is that continuing on maintenance treatment versus not doing it is not wrong. The point is we often don't even have these data to offer treatment breaks to patients so that they can make decisions that align with their goals.

 So I think that's the biggest takeaway from the FOCUS4-N trial for me is that we have some hard data now to guide patients [FOCUS4-N Editorial]. Now, strictly speaking, when I'm talking to a patient about these data, doing oral capecitabine in 3-week cycles may not feel like much. It's perhaps a visit every 3 weeks for blood work and for meeting someone from the oncology team. There are no IV drugs given. If one does well, this might literally be one visit every 3 weeks. But we have to consider that things rarely go as smoothly as we plan them to. For someone living 100 miles away and having diarrhea and needing IV fluids, they may require 3 to 4 clinic visits for labs and monitoring.

 In the FOCUS4-N trial, 50% of patients on capecitabine had at least one treatment delay, denoting some toxicity. In a different but similar CAIRO3 clinical trial that tested capecitabine and bevacizumab, 10% of patients had to discontinue treatment due to toxicity. And so it's important to remember that what might seem a simple and low burden to us may be very burdensome to patients. In some work that we've done ourselves [published in The Oncologist], even a single simple appointment to a clinic, such as a lab test, often ends up taking patients hours and hours. So I think it's all of this that we have to consider when we present these data to patients.

 Dr. Shaalan Beg: You've talked about the FOCUS4-N trial, you mentioned the CAIRO3 study as well. How do you see this playing in the clinic? Somebody may be looking to attend a child's wedding or a notable birthday or a trip with the family, and you have the data from these trials supporting you. What are the patient factors in terms of their disease factors, patient factors that you think of when you recommend such a treatment break to a patient? Or, let me flip that over. Who would be a patient that you would be uncomfortable offering a treatment break for with metastatic colorectal cancer?

 Dr. Arjun Gupta: Yes, I think disease characteristics are a crucial consideration when we consider who we're even offering these treatment breaks to. I think, number one, is the overall disease burden, and if there's any critical visceral disease and how that's responded and how much it's responded to the upfront chemotherapy induction. I think patients where we're worried about having several sites of bulky disease, some that have not responded as well, I think we have to be very, very careful considering complete chemotherapy breaks. In the FOCUS4-N trial, in subgroup analysis, patients who had stable disease tended to not benefit as much from the chemotherapy break, perhaps indicating that it's really people whose disease is responding, who are doing well, who don't have as much disease burden, who may be better served by these treatment breaks.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: Fantastic. I think that provides very good direction for our listeners on how they can apply the results of these trials in their clinic.

 So we've talked about treatment breaks as a way to give people their time back and to reduce time toxicity. What are other treatment strategies that you have seen deployed to reduce the burden of receiving cancer treatments in general?

Dr. Arjun Gupta: You specifically asked about treatment strategies, so I'll start with that before moving to more broad interventions. We actually interviewed patients and care partners to ask them this question, and one of the things that they said was having prospective information from their oncology care team just about what my expected burden was going to be. So I think people recognize that they need oncology care and the clinicians are trying to help them and it's a broken system, but just knowing that 1 in 4 days will be spent with health care contact or not, or you will spend two hours arguing on the phone with a payer, for example, preparing and supporting people for these burdens is very important. There are obviously some alternative treatment schedules. Certain chemotherapies can be given less frequently now. So if you look at cetuximab in GI cancers, for example, when the initial trials were done, it was given every week, but now we more and more use it every two weeks. And it might not seem like much, but it can open up an entire week for a patient when they can think that I don't need to go in this week at all. So these are just some minor adjustments that we can make in the clinic. 

But patients often highlight things that may perhaps not be in the direct control of the oncologist, but in the direct control of us as an oncology community. And perhaps the most frequently cited suggestion was having more care coordination and navigation services. So patients really requested more flexibility in the site of care: “Can I come closer to home?’’ In the timing of their care, ‘’Can I come in at 2:00 PM after I get childcare instead of coming in at 9:00 AM?” They really requested cluster scheduling or having appointments on the same day, if possible, instead of taking up Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, coming in so many times. And all of this could potentially be achieved by having a designated care coordinator, someone working directly with the patient and their care partner. And then some patients also highlighted the benefits of telemedicine and home-based care, where they were able to be home more. 

But we have to also recognize that those things are not universally good and often can increase burdens on the patients and care partners. Also, I wanted to highlight some feedback we received from oncology clinicians. We asked a variety of oncology clinicians, including nurses, APPs, physicians, schedulers, and social workers, what they thought were the causes of patients’ time burden. You'll be surprised to hear that when they started talking about patients’ time burdens, they slowly started to talk about their own time burdens. And they said, ‘‘We really want to help people, but we're just doing prior authorization and spending hours on the electronic medical record. And please fix my own time toxicity, and I will fix the patients’ time toxicity,” which I thought was very profound because I think everybody who goes into medicine goes into it for the right reasons, and we end up not providing perfect care, not because of us, but because of the system. I take this as a very, very positive sign and as a hope for change.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: What inspired you to focus on this topic and your research? 

Dr. Arjun Gupta: So I personally just hate waiting at the doctor’s office. But yes, it's also been wise mentors, including you, Shaalan, during residency and fellowship, who always told me to keep my ear to the ground and listen to patients. And in full disclosure, time toxicity, and what we've done with it recently, it's nothing new. It's been around for decades. And I think our research group has just sort of named it and shamed it, and now more and more people are starting to think about it.  

But I can point to two specific instances that I think of. One was when I was starting fellowship in 2018, I read a piece by Dr. Karen Daily in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, where she quoted Henry Thoreau and said, “The price of anything is the amount of life, or time, that you exchange for it.” And it really struck a chord with me, entering the oncology discipline and seeing what people with cancer go through.  

And then the second instance is, I remember my granddad, who was perhaps the most formative person in my life. We were very, very close. And when I was about to enter medical school, he was undergoing chemotherapy for lymphoma. The image that's imprinted in my head is of him putting ketchup on gulab jamun. And I can see Shaalan salivating. But for the listeners who may not know, gulab jamun is an Indian sweet made out of milk, flour, sugar, ghee, molded into balls, deep fried and then served in sugar syrup. And my granddad could not taste anything. He could not taste gulab jamun. All he could taste was ketchup. And so he would put ketchup on everything. And at his oncologist visits when I would accompany him, they would discuss the good news about the cancer shrinking and there being a response, and he was happy, but he could just not taste his gulab jamuns. And it made me realize very early on that the tumor is not the only target. 

Dr. Shaalan Beg: What a wonderful story. I think those are really hard to measure, quantify, and when patients do bring those stories into the clinic, I think you realize that you have a very special connection with those patients as well, and it does help us as clinicians give personalized advice. So thanks for sharing. 

Arjun, thanks for sharing your valuable insights with us on the ASCO Daily News Podcast today.

Dr. Arjun Gupta: Thanks so much for having me, Shaalan.

Dr. Shaalan Beg: And thank you to our listeners for your time today. You'll find links to the studies discussed today in the transcript of the episode. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclaimer:

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Find out more about today’s speakers: 

Dr. Arjun Gupta

@guptaarjun90

Dr. Gupta’s Research on Time Toxicity:

·      The Time Toxicity of Cancer Treatment, JCO

·      Consuming Patients’ Days: Time Spent on Ambulatory Appointments by People With Cancer, The Oncologist

·      Evaluating the Time Toxicity of Cancer Treatment in the CCTG CO.17 Trial, JCO OP

·      Patients’ considerations of time toxicity when assessing cancer treatments with marginal benefit, The Oncologist

·      Health Care Contact Days Experienced by Decedents With Advanced GI Cancer, JCO OP

·      Health Care Contact Days Among Older Cancer Survivors, JCO OP

Dr. Shaalan Beg   

@ShaalanBeg

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Disclosures:  

Dr. Arjun Gupta:

Employment (An Immediate Family Member): Genentech/Roche

Dr. Shaalan Beg:   

Consulting or Advisory Role: Ispen, Cancer Commons, Foundation Medicine, Genmab/Seagen   

Speakers’ Bureau: Sirtex   

Research Funding (An Immediate Family Member): ImmuneSensor Therapeutics   

Research Funding (Institution): Bristol-Myers Squibb, Tolero Pharmaceuticals, Delfi Diagnostics, Merck, Merck Serono, AstraZeneca/MedImmune