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Asian Insider episodes

  • S2E71: The mystery of Chongqing grilled fish’s origin story - and why it matters

    The stakes are high. A region’s association with a popular dish is increasingly big business, as the Chinese eat out more.

    Synopsis: Every first Friday of the month, The Straits Times catches up with its foreign correspondents about life and trends in the countries they're based in.

    Disputes over where popular dishes originated are common across Asia. The world-famous butter chicken is fought over by two restaurants - one that started out in Peshawar, now in Pakistan, and one in New Delhi, India. In Southeast Asia, neighbours Singapore and Malaysia have also tussled over chicken rice.

    It is little wonder that China, given its geographic scale and the incredible richness of its regional cuisines, has its own internal food feuds. 

    Kaoyu, or grilled fish, is a regional speciality of Chongqing, made with freshwater fish from the Yangtze River and spices such as mala peppercorns and Chinese chillies.

    The dish’s commercial success, both inside and outside of China, has raised questions about its true origin story, with two regions in Chongqing, Wanzhou and Wushan, laying claim to it.

    In this episode, host Li Xueying asks Chongqing-based correspondent Aw Cheng Wei to share his journey in tracking down where kaoyu came from, and to get to the heart of why food is so important to the Chinese. 

    Highlights (click/tap above):

    1:23 How Chongqing’s cuisine reflects its local environment and culture

    4:39 Popularity of the kaoyu dish across China

    5:59 Beginning of the dispute over the dish’s origin

    8:46 Government efforts to preserve authenticity through industry standards and culinary schools

    10:31 The complexities of culinary origin disputes across China and beyond

    13:40 China’s attitude towards food

    15:42 Food’s power to connect and what it means for China

    Read Aw Cheng Wei’s article here: https://str.sg/6y3x  

    Read Li Xueying’s articles: https://str.sg/iqmR 

    Follow Li Xueying on LinkedIn: https://str.sg/ip4x  

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Li Xueying ([email protected])

    Edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX

    Feedback to: [email protected] 

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    19 min
  • S2E70: 'Corporate mafia’: The scandal that Malaysia can no longer ignore

    From drink-driving to MACC scandal, is Malaysia's justice system bending to public pressure or finally getting serious?

    Synopsis: Every fourth Friday of the month, The Straits Times analyses the hottest political and trending talking points, alternating between its Malaysia and China bureaus.

    For our April episode, ST's Malaysia bureau chief Shannon Teoh and host Zurairi A.R. are joined by Latheefa Koya, executive director of Lawyers for Liberty and former chief commissioner of the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission (MACC).

    Highlights (click/tap above):

    3:10 Spate of fatal drink-driving crashes sparking a national debate: Why did one Klang case change everything?

    5:44 Does this mask a deeper racial and class divide in Malaysian society?

    8:26 Is a murder charge for drink-driving legally sound – or is the Attorney General bowing to public pressure?

    12:57 Malaysia's road safety debate: Does the Islamic "diyat" mechanism have any place?

    14:17 How can an anti-corruption body be weaponised as corporate mafia – and what powers make that possible?

    20:41 MACC parading suspects in orange shirts: Does the humiliation tactic actually achieve anything?

    25:15 Is PM Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim's expected non-renewal of MACC chief commissioner Tan Sri Azam Baki a genuine reckoning – or just the bare minimum?

    35:11 News nugget opinion: What 'energy-wasting' habit our guests absolutely refuse to give up, no matter what the authorities say?

    Read more:

    Malaysians are again up in arms over drink-driving, but this time it's for a different reason: https://str.sg/e3Gz 

    Why Malaysia PM Anwar's invoking a 'Zionist bogeyman' and a plot to topple the government: https://str.sg/rSwE 

    What fuel crisis? Why Malaysians are losing patience with their leaders' mileage: https://str.sg/H4H3 

    Read Zurairi A.R.’s articles: https://str.sg/DCfr 

    Read Shannon Teoh's articles: https://str.sg/wzyK 

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Zurairi A.R. ([email protected])  

    Produced and edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider Podcast on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7 

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8 

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX 

    Website: http://str.sg/stpodcasts  

    Feedback to: [email protected] 

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    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts 

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/4Vwsa 

    ---

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    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

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    40 min
  • S2E69: Crisis creates openings: Why Asia will stand out after a post-Iran conflict

    The Iran war is an unprecedented crisis but South-east Asia is better placed to handle it.

    Synopsis: Every second Friday of the month, The Straits Times’ senior columnist Ravi Velloor distils 45 years of experience covering the Asian continent, with expert guests.

    The US-Israeli assault on Iran, which led to the effective closure of the Straits of Hormuz, has seized up many Asian economies which are seeing rising fuel prices, soaring airline ticket costs and leaving restaurants short of cooking fuel.

    But South-east Asia, with memories of the Asian Financial Crisis of the late 1990s still fresh in memory is better placed macro-economically to tackle the crisis - evidenced in investors’ confidence in stocks such as DBS, SIA and OCBC.  

    In this wide-ranging episode, host Ravi Velloor speaks with Thilan Wickramasinghe, head of research at Maybank Securities and an expert on the interplay of geopolitics, macro-economics and the stock market. They unpack the full dimensions of the crisis before discussing how Asia is likely to fare when it ends, as it must some day.

    Mr Wickramasinghe offers some advice: It has paid off for investors to be long on stocks, he says, and there is a case to keep some gold in your portfolio, as well as energy stocks.

    Highlights (click/tap above)

    1:38 A Michelle Yeoh, Di Caprio-style crisis

    8:16 South-east Asia is better placed than other regions

    14:09 DBS, SIA - why some stocks do better than the rest

    15:33 Opportunities for investors in this crisis

    17:59 Post-War realities to watch for

    21:10 Equities will never go out of fashion

    Read Ravi's columns: https://str.sg/3xRP

    Follow Ravi on X: https://twitter.com/RaviVelloor

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Ravi Velloor ([email protected])

    Produced and edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider Podcast on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7 

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8 

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX

    Feedback to: [email protected]

    ---

    Follow more ST podcast channels:

    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/4Vwsa

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    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

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    28 min
  • S2E68: India’s $70 billion spiritual market fuelled by bhajan clubbing

    Discover how bhajan clubbing is transforming devotional music in India.

    Synopsis: Every first Friday of the month, The Straits Times catches up with its foreign correspondents about life and trends in the countries they're based in.

    In this episode, host Li Xueying discusses with Debarshi Dasgupta the recent surge in bhajan clubbing - the fusion of devotional Hindu music with contemporary styles like EDM and rock.

    This cultural phenomenon, exemplified by recent concerts in Delhi and other cities, explores how young Indians are finding a modern form of spiritual engagement, stress relief, and social belonging.

    It has received government endorsement from Prime Minister Modi and the BJP as part of a Hindu religious revival, which includes state funding for concerts and events.

    This cultural shift also addresses social acceptance and generational changes in religious practices.

    Highlights (click/tap above):

    1:18 How bhajan clubbing draws different age groups and its impact on faith practices

    3:41 Influence of political figures like Modi endorsing this musical trend

    6:35 The correlation between stress relief, youth identity, and spiritual needs

    11:13 BJP’s promotion of Hinduism and religious revival through government policies

    13:22 Political and economic motives behind government support for Hindu cultural activities

    16:17 Future prospects of bhajan clubbing and its evolution into all-night raves

    Read Debarshi Dasgupta’s article here: https://str.sg/qFYv  

    Read Li Xueying’s articles: https://str.sg/iqmR 

    Follow Li Xueying on LinkedIn: https://str.sg/ip4x  

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Li Xueying ([email protected])

    Edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX

    Feedback to: [email protected] 

    ---

    Follow more ST podcast channels:

    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts 

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/4Vwsa 

    ---

    Get The Straits Times app, which has a dedicated podcast player section:

    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

    Google Play: https://str.sg/icyX 

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    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    19 min
  • S2E67: Is there a silver lining for China as war rages in the Middle East?

    With Washington distracted and opportunities in clean energy, Beijing might have the last laugh.

    Synopsis: Every fourth Friday of the month, The Straits Times will now analyse the hottest political and trending talking points, alternating between its Malaysia and Greater China bureaus.

    For March, host and deputy foreign editor Albert Wai teams up again with senior China correspondent Yew Lun Tian. Their focus is on the war in the Middle East. 

    The conflict in Iran has further complicated Beijing’s ties with Washington. However, there are some dividends that might be reaped by China as America’s allies potentially look East because they find it more and more challenging to be on the same page as Trump. 

    On the economic front, fuel shortage is being felt across the board. But given China’s strengths in green technology, there might be opportunities for its companies as countries look to rejig their energy mix in the long run.

    Additionally, military analysts have suggested that the conflict serves as a living laboratory for Chinese technology given that some of Iran’s defences are reliant on systems developed by China.

    For now, Beijing’s global standing may have taken a hit as it has been exposed for having limited influence over happenings in the region. But with America fully engaged in Iran and the financial cost of the war, foreign policy space might well open up for China.

    Highlights (click/tap above): 

    2:17 Tensions between US and its allies could benefit China

    7:26 A reminder on fossil fuel reliance

    10:20 Beijing has spent years preparing for a fuel shock

    12:56 Will China join a convoy in the Straits of Hormuz?

    17:23 Iran as a living lab for military tech

    20:02 Beijing’s limited influence in the Middle East

    Read more: https://str.sg/rk3J  

    Register for Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/stnewsletters 

    Host: Albert Wai ([email protected]) 

    Produced and edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider Podcast on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7 

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8 

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX 

    Feedback to: [email protected] 

    ---

    Follow more ST podcast channels:

    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts 

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/4Vwsa 

    ---

    Get The Straits Times app, which has a dedicated podcast player section:

    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

    Google Play: https://str.sg/icyX 

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    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    26 min
  • S2E66: Iran’s war machine can only last a few more weeks: Expert

    Depleting its own military resources and antagonising Arab neighbours may be a cost too high for the regime to bear.

    Synopsis: Every third Friday of the month, The Straits Times gets its US Bureau Chief to analyse the hottest political and trending talking points.

    In this episode, US Bureau Chief Bhagyashree Garekar chats with Prof Benjamin Radd, an authority on the politics of the Middle East, especially Iran.

    Professor Radd, PhD (UCLA 2015) JD (Stanford 2003), is a Political Scientist and Senior Fellow at the UCLA Burkle Center for International Relations, and an expert on government and politics of the Middle East, US foreign policy, and comparative law. 

    Dr Radd is also a professor at the UCLA School of Law and adjunct professor at the USC Gould School of Law, where he lectures on American legal development and constitutional law and politics. 

    In addition, Dr Radd is the Founder and CEO of Fascination Lab, an educational and experiential learning consulting firm. In 2023, he was hired to design a political crisis simulation that was filmed and released as an award-winning documentary, ‘War Game’, which was selected to premiere at the Sundance Film Festival.

    Highlights (click/tap above):

    1:32 Iranian regime's capability for waging a long war

    6:23 Will the Iranian regime try to make a nuclear bomb?

    15:14 Potential emergence of a moderate leader in Iran

    19:21 Is Arab faith in the US shaken?

    20:23 The possibility of Arab nations attacking Iran

    22:17 Has Trump landed himself in a political mess?

    25:01 When will the war end?

    Read Bhagyashree Garekar’s articles: https://str.sg/whNo 

    Bhagyashree Garekar’s LinkedIn: https://str.sg/gD6E 

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Bhagyashree Garekar ([email protected]) 

    Produced and edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider Podcast on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7 

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8 

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX

    Feedback to: [email protected]

    ---

    Follow more ST podcast channels:

    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/theusualplacepodcast

    ---

    Get The Straits Times app, which has a dedicated podcast player section:

    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

    Google Play: https://str.sg/icyX

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    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    32 min
  • S2E65: Why Grab-type firms are the way for SE Asia to thrive in AI era

    How South-east Asia can navigate the age of AI and its impact on the economy and employment.

    Synopsis: Every second Friday of the month, The Straits Times’ senior columnist Ravi Velloor distils 45 years of experience covering the Asian continent, with expert guests.

    Artificial Intelligence is impacting the world at a pace far greater than that of previous general-purpose technologies, such as the steam engine, electricity, and computing.

    As the world adjusts to the so-called Fourth Industrial Revolution, marked by tremendous advances in automation and robotics, it now faces the Fifth Industrial Revolution, the era of AI and its impressive ability to perform cognitive tasks normally performed by humans.

    In this episode, host Ravi Velloor speaks with the eminent economist Dr Khor Hoe Ee, who witnessed the Latin American debt crisis and the Asian financial crisis.

    Dr Khor, formerly Chief Economist at AMRO, has also seen how events like Covid-19 have had a major impact on the economy.

    They discuss how the US and China dominate the AI space, the speed of disruption, which South-east Asian economies are most exposed and what firms in the region can do to cope with the impact of this new technology.

    They also cover other topics, for instance: What happens to employment as we know it? Is there a threat of widespread deflation? Should we consider a universal basic income?

    Highlights (click/tap above):

    4:19 The Fifth Industrial Revolution of AI is like no other period in history

    7:56 South-east Asia’s options when US, China lead in AI

    11:34 Jobs at risk; from radiology to business process outsourcing

    12:00 Prospects for Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines

    16:52 Is there a case for Universal Basic Incomes with future disruption in the market?

    18:41 Who’ll win the AI race and how the region should position itself

    Read Ravi's columns: https://str.sg/3xRP

    Follow Ravi on X: https://twitter.com/RaviVelloor

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Ravi Velloor ([email protected])

    Produced and edited by: Chen Junyi and Fa'izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider Podcast on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7 

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8 

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX

    Feedback to: [email protected]

    ---

    Follow more ST podcast channels:

    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/4Vwsa

    ---

    Get The Straits Times app, which has a dedicated podcast player section:

    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

    Google Play: https://str.sg/icyX

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    23 min
  • S2E64: Putrajaya 30 years on: The capital that never quite replaced Kuala Lumpur

    Find out why it has become a paradox decades after its founding.

    Synopsis: Every first Friday of the month, The Straits Times catches up with its foreign correspondents about life and trends in the countries they're based in.

    Putrajaya, founded in 1995, turned 30 in 2025. As Malaysia’s administrative capital and inspired by Paris, it was supposed to replace the former tin-mining colony that is Kuala Lumpur.

    Failure of urban planning that prioritised government offices and grandiosity over organic city life are some of the perceptions cited as to why the city has not lived up to its original promise.

    The Straits Times’ Malaysia correspondent Hadi Azmi, who recently moved next door to Putrajaya, tells host and foreign editor Li Xueying, about the disconnect between the ambitious vision for Putrajaya and the ground reality.

    Highlights (click/tap above):

    1:47 The vision and reality of Putrajaya

    8:13 The “unfinished bridge” and Putrajaya’s shelved monorail system

    10:31 Lack of political will leads to urban planning issues

    13:28 Lessons from Putrajaya’s township designs

    19:22 Hadi’s personal insights and experience in Putrajaya

    Read Hadi Azmi’s article here: https://str.sg/CF3t 

    Read Li Xueying’s articles: https://str.sg/iqmR 

    Follow Li Xueying on LinkedIn: https://str.sg/ip4x  

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Li Xueying ([email protected])

    Edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX

    Feedback to: [email protected] 

    ---

    Follow more ST podcast channels:

    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts 

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/4Vwsa 

    ---

    Get The Straits Times app, which has a dedicated podcast player section:

    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

    Google Play: https://str.sg/icyX 

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    22 min
  • S2E63: Malaysia’s education gamble: UEC option and lowering school age

    From considering UEC path to starting school at six – is Malaysia's education overhaul built to last?

    Synopsis: Every fourth Friday of the month, The Straits Times analyses the hottest political and trending talking points, alternating between its Malaysia and China bureaus.

    For our February episode, ST’s Malaysia bureau chief Shannon Teoh and host Zurairi A.R. are joined by Eddin Khoo, historian, writer, educator, and founder of Malaysian traditional culture conservation group Pusaka. 

    Highlights (click/tap above):

    2:08 There are more encroachment into the Chinese minority in Kelantan now. What has changed in the last five years?

    7:35 PAS’ return to federal government seems imminent. What lessons should non-Muslims draw from Kelantan’s experience?

    11:19 Has the government found a durable solution on Unified Examination Certificate (UEC) or will this just spell more trouble in the future? 

    16:23 PM Anwar seems to have found a political balancing act on UEC. How sustainable is this? 

    19:38 Was the rollback on the Standard One readiness test responsive governance or poor planning?

    22:12 What do Malaysians actually want from the education system?

    26:52 If you were elected mayor of KL, what would you fix first?

    Read more:

    Where Muslims pray in ‘Beijing Mosque’ and a Chinese community finds its way https://str.sg/chinese-minority-kelantan 

    Malaysia makes Malay and history compulsory for Chinese independent school route to public universities: https://str.sg/7BNQ 

    After Sabah drubbing, debate reignites over little-known exam that could break up PM Anwar’s coalition: https://str.sg/n6yA  

    Who should run KL? Study into local polls stirs fears over demographics: https://str.sg/ci5e

    Read Zurairi A.R.’s articles: https://str.sg/DCfr 

    Read Shannon Teoh's articles: https://str.sg/wzyK 

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Zurairi A.R. ([email protected])  

    Produced and edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider Podcast on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7 

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8 

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX 

    Website: http://str.sg/stpodcasts  

    Feedback to: [email protected] 

    SPH Awedio app: https://www.awedio.sg 

    ---

    Follow more ST podcast channels:

    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts 

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/4Vwsa 

    ---

    Get The Straits Times app, which has a dedicated podcast player section:

    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

    Google Play: https://str.sg/icyX 

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    34 min
  • S2E62: Singaporean tech founders on building global companies in US

    From a phone plan for cat parents to a keyless life: Two Singaporean founders share tips from their US start-up journeys

    Synopsis: Every third Friday of the month, The Straits Times gets its US Bureau Chief to analyse the hottest political and trending talking points.

    In this episode, US bureau chief Bhagyashree Garekar chats with Jasmin Young and Anthony Chow about how they established successful businesses in the US.

    Jasmin Young has launched and led several Silicon Valley-based startups including Gather, which aims to build the world's first AI-based telco. She also steered Netreo, an enterprise software business, which was recognised by Inc 5000 as a fastest growing private company for eight consecutive years until 2024. She teaches at University of California, Berkeley and the National University of Singapore.

    Anthony Chow, the chief executive officer and co-founder of Igloo, has unlocked a key part of the sharing economy. His firm creates smart locks, devices and enterprise software for homes, commercial properties and infrastructure worldwide.  It has logged one billion unlocks annually and was named ‘International Startup of the Year’ at the Austin A List Awards 2025. A Stanford graduate, he also serves as an adjunct assistant professor at the National University of Singapore.

    Highlights (click/tap above):

    1:26 What’s Meow Mobile?

    2:38 What’s Igloo?

    9:14 Using AI to help connect people & products at scale

    12:37 How can start-ups stand out in a crowd?

    16:28 Why Anthony sent his smart locks into space

    20:21 It’s a marathon, not a sprint

    23:19 Jasmin’s biggest breakthrough during Covid

    26:37 Does the Singapore brand help?

    Read Bhagyashree Garekar’s articles: https://str.sg/whNo 

    Bhagyashree Garekar’s LinkedIn: https://str.sg/gD6E 

    Sign up for ST’s weekly Asian Insider newsletter: https://str.sg/sfpz 

    Host: Bhagyashree Garekar ([email protected]) 

    Produced and edited by: Fa’izah Sani

    Executive producer: Ernest Luis

    Follow Asian Insider Podcast on Fridays here:

    Channel: https://str.sg/JWa7 

    Apple Podcasts: https://str.sg/JWa8 

    Spotify: https://str.sg/JWaX

    Feedback to: [email protected]

    SPH Awedio app: https://www.awedio.sg

    ---

    Follow more ST podcast channels:

    All-in-one ST Podcasts channel: https://str.sg/wvz7

    Get more updates: http://str.sg/stpodcasts

    The Usual Place Podcast YouTube: https://str.sg/theusualplacepodcast

    ---

    Get The Straits Times app, which has a dedicated podcast player section:

    The App Store: https://str.sg/icyB

    Google Play: https://str.sg/icyX

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    36 min

About Asian Insider

From the publisher's feed

Synopsis: Every Friday, get our distinct take on global issues with an Asian perspective, with ST’s globally-based correspondents.

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