b Cause Work Doesn't Have to Suck

What happens when the career move everyone thinks you should make is the one your gut is telling you to avoid?

Melanie Hallenbeck, Chief Growth Officer at Alegeus, has spent 30 years building a wildly successful career in sales and leadership. But she's also made some pretty unconventional decisions along the way. Like turning down a major promotion everyone thought she was crazy to refuse, cold-calling a cold-calling expert (yes, really), and walking away from a huge sales deal to make it to her daughters' gymnastics show.

Melanie joins Erin Hatzikostas to talk about trusting your instincts, navigating career growth without sacrificing what matters most, and why a tangled ball of pastry string might teach you more about building authentic client relationships than any corporate sales training.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why saying no to a promotion doesn't mean saying no to ambition

• How investing in yourself can open unexpected doors

• Why trusting your gut matters more than following the traditional career ladder

• How authenticity builds stronger, more memorable client relationships

• Why being different can be your biggest competitive advantage

Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

• Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram
• Take our simple, fun and insightful "What's your workplace superhero name?" quiz
• Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book, You Do You-ish
• Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.
• Work with Us
• Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsuitable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

"I live by my gut. When my gut tells me to do something or fight for something, I listen, even when everybody else is against it."

"Sometimes the universe whispers to you and sometimes it screams."

"Information is great, but it's how you use it that matters."

"I don't regret not winning the deal. I don't want to work with anybody who would put up that kind of a barrier."

"Figure out why you're making things harder, and take a small step in the right direction."

Editor's note: This transcript has been edited and condensed for clarity and readability. Promotional segments and housekeeping have been removed.

Erin Hatzikostas talks with Melanie Hollenbeck about authentic leadership, career growth, and making professional decisions that support your family and values. Melanie shares how she built a sales career as a single mother, turned down a major promotion, invested in cold calling training, and developed lasting client relationships through genuine connection.

Building a Career at ADP as a Working Mom

Erin: I want to start with your first job at ADP. You were a single mother with two kids. What did you envision for your career back then? Take us back to younger Melanie.

Melanie: I started before I was a single mom. I wanted to get my master's degree, and I couldn't afford it. I was reading the want ads in the New Haven Register, and there was an ADP call center representative job. It literally said they would pay for a master's degree. I couldn't have manifested that any better. I got the job and was so excited.

On my first day, there were two older women they called "the moms." They would send calls to your desk. I went to get up, and one said, "Where are you going?" I said, "I just have to go to the ladies' room." She said, "No, you have to sign out." You had to go at a certain time. I was like, "My body doesn't work that way."

After a while, I looked at one of them and said, "I'm not going to be here for long. I'm going to see what the next job is." She said, "Zip your lip. These people are lifers." It took my breath away. I immediately knew I wanted the next step. I didn't know what it was, but this wasn't going to be it for me.

I'm so thankful I started that way, because I learned everything I needed to know. I went into implementation, had my first daughter, and did the first job share at ADP Milford.

Erin: Wow. How did that work?

Melanie: The general manager, Sal, was amazing. We said, "We want to share a job." He said, "Okay." Super progressive. I worked Mondays and Wednesdays; she worked Tuesdays and Fridays. She also watched my daughter on the days I worked.

We implemented more clients than anybody else, with the highest NPS scores. We had to succeed, because otherwise this wouldn't be possible.

Then I started going out with salespeople during implementations and meeting clients. I loved meeting people and figuring out solutions. A solution architect job came up in national accounts, which, other than global, was as high as you could go.

I applied and then found out I was pregnant with my second daughter. I called the hiring manager and said, "I'm going to take my name out. I'm three months pregnant. I would go to training and leave."

They ended up having a hiring freeze for my entire maternity leave. They called while I was out and said, "The job is yours if you want it." I went back a bit early. Sometimes the universe whispers to you, and sometimes it screams. I felt like it was yelling, and I was listening.

Recognizing an Opportunity to Move Into Sales

Melanie: I loved that job, but I started going out with salespeople and asking, "What is this President's Club you speak of? What is this big house you have in Orange, Connecticut?" I wanted a better life for my children. I was alone at that point, and I had to supply everything for them.

A leader said, "I see something in you. We want to offer you an opportunity to try sales." That wasn't even a thing. I would keep doing my job, but they gave me five accounts to see how I did.

I sold one of them, about a $500,000 account, for something we hadn't even launched yet. I made my $10,000 stipend, which felt like a million dollars to me. That launched my sales career.

Erin: What do you think they saw in you that made them offer that trial?

Melanie: There weren't a lot of women in ADP National Accounts sales at the time. I worked with some guys who hadn't been excited in probably 10 of their 20-something years there. They would come from the golf course, still wearing golf shoes, collect their phone messages, and leave.

I think I had this passion and drive for what was next and how to do more and better. I still have it. I push my teams to do that, and I notice people who have it, because not everybody does.

Initially, I needed money. I was a single mom. Over time, I met my second husband, and financially, I didn't need the same things anymore. But I still wanted the next opportunity.

They also saw that sales is consultative. People buy from people. I attribute so much to my time in the call center. There was nothing I didn't know about how the system worked or why somebody's W-2 was wrong.

When I talked about the solution a client needed, I thought about the person whose paycheck was wrong. How do you fix that immediately? What system do you need? What kind of employees do you have? That experience helped me understand what mattered to the client.

Cold Calling the Cold Calling Expert

Erin: I heard you once cold called a cold calling trainer, which is hilarious. Tell us about that.

Melanie: I literally found her in the phone book. Wendy Weiss. I think I found her book, Cold Calling for Women, at Barnes & Noble. I was always there with my girls.

I knew I had to cold call these five accounts and get a meeting. That was my only goal. I bought the book and worked on my elevator pitch. I had note cards. I still have them. If you see me speaking somewhere, there will be a note card somewhere near my body, usually handwritten.

I read the book and did all the things, but I felt like I needed more. I thought, "I'm going to find this woman and see if she'll train me. Who better to train me on cold calling?"

I think I paid her $100, which felt like $1,000 at the time. But I was making an investment. I'd never cold called anybody. What was I supposed to say? "Hey, I'm going to make 10 grand if you just see me and buy something"?

Erin: That was the net-net. How cold should I be?

Melanie: That was the net-net, but I felt like I had to amp it up a little. I worked with her for probably a month and got my story straight. I'm not shitting you: My first call to my first prospect was the one I sold.

The product was just coming out. It was in beta. ADP had an event called Meeting of the Minds, where clients and prospects could meet company leaders. I took my client to New Orleans, and we had dinner with the president.

I remember thinking, "I'm going to sign this thing right here. My first deal." Somebody gave him a pen, and he signed it at dinner. It felt like a dream come true.

Erin: Your first sale came from this experiment, using cold calling training you went and got on your own?

Melanie: Correct. And nobody had gotten meetings with some of these accounts in 10 to 15 years. At the time, you got a limited number of national accounts, and you had to make your quota from those accounts. That moment changed everything for me.

Research That Makes a Sales Conversation Relevant

Erin: Is there something from that training you've carried with you throughout your career?

Melanie: I still have to call people and ask for something, whether it's time with the chief growth officer of a top partner or somebody else. You have about two minutes.

Sometimes I answer a cold call because of what the person says or how they show up. Other times, I'm thinking, "Buddy, you could do better. You don't even know my name."

For that first prospect, I knew so much about him and his company because of my research. I looked at other biotech clients using us. I had a full script, and I've done that throughout my sales career.

When I got a new territory at WageWorks, I met with manufacturing clients and pharmaceutical clients in the area. I wanted to understand each industry. Why do you use us? What do you like? What doesn't work well? I met with existing clients before trying to sell to a new prospect.

Erin: The information is so much easier to find now. But there's also a balance between knowing a lot and maintaining genuine curiosity so you still have questions to ask.

Melanie: I had a boss who would look somebody up on LinkedIn and then open a meeting with a comment about Duke because he'd seen their Duke hat. I'd be horrified. What are we doing?

I'd rather start with why we're there: We help other pharmaceutical companies do this, save money, or solve whatever matters to them.

My team researches prospects and people extensively. They use AI and all the tools. Then they boil it down to, "What do we want to do with this information?" Information is great, but how you use it matters.

Erin: That's a risk with AI. People take in all that information and forget to synthesize it. You still have to ask what it means and be comfortable letting the conversation develop.

Turning Down a Promotion to Choose Her Family

Erin: Did you ever take a step back to go forward? A lot of people listening are thinking about their next step.

Melanie: Yes, although it wasn't planned. I was doing really well in sales at ADP, and I loved it. On my 10-year anniversary, the guy across from me was celebrating his 25th year. He'd been in that cubicle for much of that time. He got a watch or something and said, "There it is. There's my 25-year career."

I looked over and thought, "I cannot have that be me." Around the same time, Jim Brower offered me a divisional vice president position running the Boston office. It was the worst-performing office in ADP National Accounts. There was only one way to go.

I put my kids in the car, drove to Boston, met a real estate agent, and looked at houses I thought we could afford. I was still a single mom. My parents had moved to Florida, I don't have siblings, and my ex-husband's cousins were helping me with my children. They were the best humans.

Driving back, I looked at my kids in the mirror and thought, "What am I doing?" I give 120% to anything I do. If I moved to Boston with no support system, new schools, and new everything, something would give. I didn't think I could be the mom and the leader I wanted to be in that situation.

I reluctantly said no, and it was killing me because it was what I wanted. Somebody came into my cubicle and said, "You said no to Jim Brower for that divisional vice president role?"

I said, "Yeah. Picked my kids." They said, "He's never going to ask you again." I said, "Okay." If he wasn't going to ask again, that was his loss as far as I was concerned.

How a Step Back Opened a Different Career Path

Melanie: The next week, I was at a fundraiser at my children's school and met a guy who was the head of sales at a third-party administrator. I was driving an ADP company car, a Chevy Malibu. He told me their company car was an Audi A4. I was like, "We're done here."

Erin: Sold. You had me.

Melanie: But the important part was that they were selling HSAs, and ADP didn't have an HSA solution. I'd been talking with them about integrating something for one of my clients.

I went there and learned about consumer-directed healthcare. That experience got me to WageWorks. In my opinion, I took a step back, but the job allowed me to be 10 miles from my children's school and home every night for a couple of years. I wouldn't have gotten the WageWorks job without that experience.

Erin: Sometimes the universe whispers, sometimes it screams, and sometimes it gives you a big high-five for making a decision that's right for the big picture.

Working Motherhood, Boundaries, and Being Present

Erin: We have to talk about the journals you kept for your girls.

Melanie: I kept them during their younger years, mostly while I was divorced. My children didn't want to fall asleep without seeing me. I bought a small house in Cheshire, Connecticut, with their bedrooms across the hall from each other, and I would sit between them.

At one point, I started doing sit-ups so they could see me and then not see me until they fell asleep. I had the best abs. This could go on for an hour.

I wanted to document a day in our life. I did it for probably a year or more. I'd write down when we woke up, getting breakfast, getting everybody ready. I wanted them to understand what life was like as a working mom.

I recently saw a story in the journal about a meeting at Titleist, a huge national account we were trying to win. I was in Massachusetts for a four-hour meeting, wearing the black skirt suit, stockings, and heels we wore at ADP.

I walked in and said, "I'm so excited to be here and present this solution. Just a note: I have a hard stop at three. My daughters are in a gymnastics show, and I'm it for them. If I don't go, that's not great."

Three o'clock came, and they kept asking questions. Around 3:10, I closed my laptop and said, "I'm so sorry. I would love to continue. I can come back tomorrow, another day, or call you, but I have to go."

I didn't win the deal. I don't regret not winning it. I don't want to work with somebody who would put up that kind of barrier.

Erin: I thought that story was going to have a different ending, with everybody watching the clock for you.

Melanie: Reading it again made me think about the questions you ask yourself as a working mom. Did I always make the right decisions for them? Probably not. Did I always make the right decisions for me? No.

But I also saw the things we did consistently. Every Thursday, we got ice cream and hot dogs. Every Tuesday, if it wasn't raining, we went to the trail to ride bikes and rollerblade. We didn't have a lot, but we had a lot.

My daughters remember it positively. Somebody recently asked how we became so close. I looked at my girls and said, "How did I do it?" They said, "When you were with us, you were with us. We knew you worked, and we knew that was important."

Erin: You're so driven and high energy. You travel, you care about your team, and you're always going. Hearing these stories is powerful because it shows you can have more than one speed. You can make difficult decisions and lose some opportunities while still building a successful career.

Giving Yourself Grace About Working Mom Guilt

Melanie: I had college students who helped get the girls off the bus and give them a snack until I got home. I was also one of the first people working from home, with dial-up AOL. You can imagine how great that was.

I remember Suzy Welch's book, 10-10-10. I still give it to moms. The idea is to think about how a decision will affect your children immediately, further down the road, and years later.

People say, "I can't miss this baseball game." In the moment, your kid might be upset. Later, after you've attended so many other games, will they remember? I'm not talking about a state championship, but an ordinary game.

I did things like bringing my kids to President's Club and paying somebody to come with us. They'd sit in the room, and I'd take them to the pool. What was I doing? They weren't going to remember that I was gone for four days enjoying a reward I'd earned.

Mom guilt lives on whether you're a single mom or a working mom. You have to give yourself some grace. The journals helped me see that I did the best I could. My kids would say that, too. They didn't know the whole story or career trajectory until they were much older.

Erin: Was there anything you rediscovered in the journals that really hit you?

Melanie: I wrote my older daughter a letter the day I got separated. I came from a divorced family and had promised myself I would never get divorced. She was about two or two and a half, so she wouldn't read it until much later.

The letter was raw and emotional. I was sorry we were doing this to her, but I tried to explain that I didn't want her growing up thinking a married couple should live that way. There wasn't love, and there was a lot of fighting. It wasn't a healthy environment. Regardless of the cost to me, I knew I wasn't going to do that, and I would figure it out.

Erin: That was a decision where you were looking at the long term.

Authentic Leadership and Stronger Client Relationships

Erin: You're authenticity personified. We've worked together on keynotes and coaching with your sales team, including proposals and strategic authenticity. What surprised you most about bringing that work to your team?

Melanie: I'm active in our women's employee resource group, and I've found that women sometimes hold back their authenticity because they're trying to reach a certain level or speak a certain way. They worry that being authentic will make them seem less than.

Even an out-of-office message can show it. I love the ones that say something like, "Drinking a cocktail on the beach right now. Call Susie if you need help, and I'll be back on this date." People reach a certain role and decide they can't say something like that. Then people don't get to know them.

We've gotten really close with some clients. We talk about a parent being sick, how we're feeling about work, and everything else. I've noticed those relationships getting deeper.

One client gave me the best gift by saying, "I don't like salespeople. There are no salespeople I talk to after a deal is done except your team." I've heard that consistently. They're being their authentic selves.

Why a Ball of String Became a Memorable Client Gift

Melanie: I'm known for giving the best swag. People still send me pictures of a Patagonia jacket I gave them eight years ago and tell me it's their favorite.

One client had gone to Mike's Pastry in Boston, where they tie the boxes with pastry string. Once you open the box, the string becomes a tangled ball. You're never tying it back up.

She wanted to take some pastries home on the plane. My rep found some string and tried to give it to her. It was a complete ball. She said, "What would you like me to do with this?" He said, "You could tie the box." She said, "Could I?" They spent about 20 minutes laughing because it was never happening.

Later, I was in Boston with my family, getting cannolis. I took the string off the box and started laughing because I knew I was seeing this woman again.

I bought one of those clear souvenir display boxes you'd use for a baseball or a hole-in-one golf ball. I put the ball of string inside and presented it as her gift at dinner in a nice steakhouse. We laughed for 15 minutes.

I could have brought her an L.L.Bean tote, but that wouldn't have reflected our relationship or what makes us laugh. Several of my clients are friends forever. The same goes for colleagues.

Erin: Now that sits on her desk and has a story. Nobody asks about another glass award, but a ball of string in a box gets a question.

Sally Hogshead says, "Different is better than better." I remember your team really grabbing onto that. This was personal and funny, and it was different.

Melanie: We've had competitors tell similar stories and even use similar slides. My challenge to the team is, "How are we going to be memorable?" Everybody hears the story and watches the demo.

It's like looking at five houses. By the time you get home, you have the perfect house in your head, and your husband says, "That doesn't exist. The first house had the pool, the third had the bathroom."

Erin: You just start making shit up.

Melanie: Exactly. After several long demos, what do people remember? An authentic story, a dinner, the people who brought the ball of string. My team cares so much and is so passionate about those relationships. Nobody can take that away from them.

Trusting Your Gut and Challenging Career Norms

Erin: What's your "buck that" moment, a time you went against the grain and good things happened?

Melanie: I feel like I'm constantly doing that. I don't have one moment. I live in the "Fuck it, let's try it" space. Somebody says, "Don't hire this person," and you do, and it works out.

I live with my gut. Those moments happen when my gut tells me to do something or fight for something while everybody else is fighting against it.

Erin: One definition I use for authentic people is that they focus on what's needed rather than what's normal. That's you. You're fighting for something because you know it's needed in that situation. You've given us examples throughout this conversation.

How to Make Work Suck Less

Erin: What's your last piece of advice to make work suck less?

Melanie: Figure out why it sucks. In a growth organization, sales is often at the tip of the spear. There are questions about what we sold, how we'll implement it, how we'll service it, and how we'll price it.

I try to focus on what I'm grateful for every morning. I also think about what works well. Start with what doesn't suck. My team doesn't suck. I love them. My family doesn't suck. My clients don't suck. Most of them. Just kidding.

Then ask what actually does suck. People sometimes forget that it's called work for a reason. It's going to involve work, but it doesn't have to suck.

Figure out why you're making things harder and take a small step in the right direction. Meet with the team you're constantly at odds with and understand why. Then try to fix it.

Nobody wants to wake up on Sunday with the Sunday scaries, thinking, "Here I fucking go again." How do you keep that from happening? How do you find joy in the joyful things while remembering that every day won't be sunshine and roses? It's a job, and sometimes it's hard.

Your team is burnt toast. And honestly, you might be too.

So how do you get people to care more without adding another morale initiative, meeting, spreadsheet, or 58-page PowerPoint nobody actually wants?

In this Micro Motivator, Erin Hatzikostas shares three simple ways leaders can build more trust, energy, and engagement by being more authentic. No giant culture initiative required. Just a few tangible changes in how you show up, what you take off your team's plate, and how you communicate.

In this episode, you'll hear:

• Why a little humility can build trust faster than polished leadership
• What happens when leaders start challenging the BS work clogging up everyone's day
• Why an off-the-cuff weekly update can connect more than another corporate memo
• How authentic leadership becomes real through what you do, not what you say you are

Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

• Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram
• Take our simple, fun and insightful "What's your workplace superhero name?" quiz
• Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book, You Do You-ish
• Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.
• Work with Us
• Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsuitable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

"Tell a humility moment, a story of a time when you screwed up."

"Take away a piece of BS work. Holy cow, what a huge trading chip."

"It should just be off the cuff, from the heart, authentic updates."

"The way that you do it isn't through being. It's through doing."

Intro Note: This transcript has been edited for clarity, readability, and length while preserving the core ideas from the episode.

In this Micro Motivator, Erin Hatzikostas shares three practical ways leaders can increase employee engagement through authentic leadership, including using humility, removing unnecessary work, and communicating more openly with their teams.

3 Simple Culture Hacks Any Leader Can Do

Erin: Being a leader right now is really tough. If you're like most leaders, your team is burnt toast, and so are you. How do you keep them motivated and caring when everyone is already exhausted?

I'm a former corporate CEO, and employee engagement went up 15% in the three years I led the company. One thing I can tell you is that you need to be authentic. But how do you actually wake up tomorrow and do that differently?

Use Humility on Purpose

Erin: First, purposely use humility with your team. Tell what I call a humility moment, a story about a time when you screwed up. It can be work-related or home-related.

When you open up, people start trusting you more and often become more willing to open up with the rest of the team too.

Take Away the BS Work

Erin: Number two, take away a piece of BS work.

Are people spending time making 58-page PowerPoints pretty for an internal meeting nobody will look at? Is there a spreadsheet, presentation, or request that nobody has bothered to challenge?

Show your team that you're willing to understand what is clogging up their day and get some of that junk out of their way.

Give Your Team the Unpolished Version

Erin: Number three, try a weekly email or video to your team. I prefer video. Don't plan the whole thing out.

Share what's on your mind, something you're proud of, or something you learned that week. It doesn't have to be fancy or comprehensive. It should be off the cuff and from the heart.

People want to know what you're really feeling and what's actually going on behind the scenes.

Erin: The way you become an authentic leader isn't through being. It's through doing. Take a step in that direction and watch your employees get fired up.

What does "killing it" actually look like behind the scenes? Because sometimes it's a huge stage and an incredible opportunity. And sometimes it's a soggy airport sandwich, a missed flight, or admitting that something just isn't working.

In this episode, Erin sits down with speaker, author, and emotional intelligence expert Rich Bracken for a chat about the side of success we don't always talk about (or get to hear). They dig into why we're so quick to measure accomplishments but ignore how we actually feel, the power of being honest about failure, and why vulnerability matters more than maintaining the appearance that everything is fine.

Rich also shares his "Theory of Why Not," the mindset that has led him to take some pretty wild chances throughout his career, and why meaningful progress usually comes from consistent effort rather than trying to knock it out of the park every single day.

Here's what you'll hear:

• Why your feelings deserve as much attention as your metrics
• What the polished version of "killing it" leaves out
• How asking "Why not?" can lead to unexpected opportunities
• Why small, consistent effort is more powerful than perfection
• How vulnerability, curiosity, and genuine care make us better leaders

Connect with Rich on LinkedIn

Learn more at richbracken.com.

Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

• Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram
• Take our simple, fun and insightful "What's your workplace superhero name?" quiz
• Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book, You Do You-ish
• Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.
• Work with Us
• Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsuitable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

"The feeling is data, too."

"We all want to feel seen and heard and respected, so show that and you'll get it back."

"If you put the other person first, everything else unfolds the way it should."

"The best leaders I ever worked for or worked with were human beings. They were vulnerable, they were honest, and they cared."

Editor's note: This transcript has been edited for clarity and length while preserving the substance and conversational tone of the original discussion.

Erin Hatzikostas sits down with speaker, author, coach, and emotional intelligence expert Rich Bracken to talk about what success really looks like behind the scenes. They explore emotional intelligence, vulnerability, failure, leadership, consistent effort, Rich's "Theory of Why Not," and why some of the biggest opportunities in your career can start with simply being willing to take a chance.

Success Is More Than a Metric

Erin: I want to start by reading something from your book because this took my breath away. You wrote, "The most dangerous blind spot in change management isn't a missed metric. It's individual and group satisfaction. That's the left hook nobody sees coming. We get so obsessed with what we can measure that we stop paying attention to what we can't. The feeling is data, too."

You talk about how we want everyone to believe everything is fine. We hit the number. It worked. We never heard no. Admitting that we came up short or something didn't work can feel like weakness, so we skip past it. We're much quicker to share our wins than our failures.

And that instinct doesn't just apply to metrics. It applies to how we feel. We hide emotional shortcomings the same way we hide missed targets because vulnerability in either form feels like exposure.

Rich: I think we need to chip away at this idea of perfection because, number one, it doesn't exist. Nobody is going to be perfect. Nothing is ever going to be perfect.

The more people admit their failures, admit their shortcomings, or admit that something went wrong, the more honest we can be.

I lost a contract the other day that was devastating to me. It was going to be huge for me. And the first thing I thought was, "I've got to talk to somebody about the failure."

It's one thing to say everything is great and trucking along, but when those left hooks come, sometimes you need somebody to grab you and lift you off the ground. It's tough.

Erin: I think this applies to people at every level of their careers. We get asked all these metric-driven questions. How many talks did you do? How much business did you bring in? What did you accomplish?

My goal is two or three talks a month. That translates to around 30 talks a year, and I freaking love that. I don't necessarily want 100 talks a year.

And when people ask how things are going, in general I'm like, "My life's fucking awesome." Not just because I'm hitting a number. My life in totality is great.

We spend so much time talking about how many. Maybe we need to talk more about how it actually feels.

What "Killing It" Really Looks Like

Erin: Let's talk about "killing it," because when we met, we immediately started laughing about what people think success looks like versus what it actually looks like.

What's an example of "killing it" for you?

Rich: There are so many.

If killing it looks like sorting through which airport sandwich is the least soggy because everything else is closed and I've missed three flights, then yes, I'm killing it.

Does killing it look like sitting in front of my computer cursing because I can't find the last version of a presentation I worked on?

Is killing it putting your PowerPoint into Google only to have your client download it and suddenly the font looks like Wingdings?

That's the part people don't see.

I love what I do. I wouldn't trade it for the world. But I think the closest comparison to a professional speaker's life is a touring musician. It's exhausting. You're traveling constantly. You're dealing with airports, weather, schedules, flights, hotels, and all of these things happening around the glamorous part people see.

Erin: The facade is cool, though.

Rich: Absolutely. And sometimes it really is cool.

I'm about to speak in front of nearly 10,000 people. I have custom lighting. I have a walk-up video. There are going to be glow sticks, music, singing, dancing. It's going to look like I'm a rock star.

But somebody asked me, "What are you going to do for the rest of the day?"

I said, "I'm going back to my room, curling up in a ball, and not talking to anyone."

That's what killing it looks like too.

I know I'll walk off that stage on cloud nine, but I'll also be completely empty. I'll need to refuel.

Erin: I have plenty of those stories too.

Killing it was somebody reaching out to ask me to endorse a book, and then realizing they had confused me with the author of a completely different book.

Killing it was getting what I thought was fan mail asking for my autograph six months after starting the podcast, then realizing somebody was probably trying to get my signature for fraud.

Killing it was putting together footage for my speaker reel and discovering you could see my underwear when I turned around onstage.

That's the behind-the-scenes version.

Small Steps Can Change Your Entire Life

Erin: One of the foundational stories in your life is losing more than 100 pounds. Tell us about that.

Rich: I was a rail-thin kid and played sports year-round. Then I was diagnosed with exercise-induced asthma. I'm my parents' only child, so my mom basically said, "Stay inside, eat whatever you want, and play video games."

I went from being outside constantly to being inside constantly, and I started putting on weight.

By middle school I was the heavier kid, and I got teased quite a bit. Football became a saving grace because being bigger suddenly gave me an identity. I was an offensive lineman. I was the protector. I opened opportunities for the running backs and helped keep my friends safe.

I eventually played a year of college football. Then I quit, and that identity disappeared.

The eating habits stayed, but the workout habits went away.

I got up to about 260 pounds. I fell into this really low self-esteem mindset. I didn't like what I saw in the mirror. I was miserable.

Erin: Was there a specific moment that made you decide to change?

Rich: It sounds silly, but I got tired of pulling my shirt away from my body.

I was constantly adjusting it because I was afraid of my body showing. I was exhausted. I didn't have energy. I was depressed. I didn't want to do anything. I wasn't social.

I finally had my diet analyzed, and everything was off the charts. Cholesterol, calories, fat, everything.

My health instructor gave me something incredibly simple. He told me to replace certain foods with better options, eliminate fast food and carbonated drinks, and walk one mile a day.

That was it.

I didn't need to change everything overnight. I didn't need three hours of cardio or two hours in the gym.

I just needed to do something small and see progress.

Eventually I went from a 40-inch waist to trying on a pair of 34-inch pants in an Old Navy dressing room and screaming because they actually fit.

Those moments taught me that I could change something huge by consistently doing small things.

It transformed my life because I started to believe I could take on other things too.

The Theory of Why Not

Erin: That leads really naturally into something you call your "Theory of Why Not." What is it?

Rich: I tell people all the time that I have the most ridiculous life résumé of anybody I've ever met.

The things I've done, the people I've met, the situations I've put myself in, all of those experiences come back to the theory of why not.

Why not give it a shot?

Why not me?

Why not try it?

The worst you're going to hear is no.

I don't ever want to die with all these ideas that might have been great, but I never acted on them.

So many people are afraid to try because the possibility of failure exists.

They don't want to say, "I want to do this thing," because what if it doesn't work?

The Theory of Why Not is about getting out of your own head and getting out of your own way.

I've been on several game shows. I've also missed several other ones because I took a chance on them and didn't get picked.

I've had speaking opportunities, business opportunities, media opportunities, and all kinds of experiences. The ones people see are great.

What we don't talk about are the dozens that didn't happen. The dozens of no's. The dozens of, "You're nice, but..."

Those are the things we're terrified of.

But I can say I've lived a very full life. If I went away tomorrow, I went for it.

If you continually talk yourself out of opportunities, dreams, lofty goals, or ridiculous ideas, you'll never know what could have happened.

Sometimes you have to ask, "Why not? What's the worst that could happen?"

Taking a Chance With a Mix CD

Erin: What's an early example of you living this way?

Rich: When I was in graduate school, I had the opportunity to study in England. I was also DJing, and one of the top radio stations in the country happened to be about two blocks from where I lived.

For those of you under 40, brace yourself.

I took my mix CD to the radio station.

I basically said, "I've loved the English music scene for years. It's one of the reasons I'm a DJ. I just want to know what you think. Am I any good? How do I stack up?"

I told them, "If you hate it and never want to talk to me again, that's fine. At least I took the shot."

Three days later, the station's marketing manager called me.

She said, "You told me you have half-day Fridays and a rail pass, right?"

I said yes.

She said, "Great. We've booked you for six opening slots at different clubs around the country, opening for some huge DJs."

All because I walked in and handed somebody a CD.

I wasn't expecting that. I just wanted feedback.

If I had never raised my hand, I never would have known.

Some of the coolest things I've ever gotten to do happened because I was willing to take that kind of chance.

Opening for Avicii and Going on Game Shows

Rich: Another great example was auditioning to open for Avicii when he was one of the biggest DJs in the world.

I was competing against people who were DJing regularly. I had a corporate job and was DJing on the side for fun.

But I believed in my style. I believed in my energy. I believed I could earn that spot.

So I auditioned.

I got picked.

I ended up opening for Avicii in Kansas City in front of thousands of people. It was phenomenal.

That same mindset has led me to game shows, television, speaking, and writing a book.

I was on $100,000 Pyramid. My partner was Von Miller, who had just won the Super Bowl and was the Super Bowl MVP.

Usher was also there. He was a terrible game show teammate.

Erin: Was he?

Rich: Terrible.

I was also on a reality show on ESPN, and I competed to host another television show. I made it to the final four and didn't get the job.

But it was still an incredible experience.

My ridiculous dream job is to host The Price Is Right someday.

And the funny part is, because of one of the shows I was on, I'm now one degree of separation from that job.

That alone is the Theory of Why Not.

Erin: You're making me think I need to go on a game show.

Rich: Why not?

The Biggest Lesson Rich Learned From Being a DJ

Erin: You DJed for a long time. Now you speak and coach executives, speakers, and professional athletes. What did being a DJ teach you that translates into what you do now?

Rich: Two things.

The first is self-awareness and self-confidence.

People think DJing is just standing there pushing buttons and playing music, but there's an art to it. You're exposing yourself creatively.

And if something goes wrong with the music, sound, or song choice, you can't hide. You're the person standing there controlling everything.

Confidence, self-awareness, and believing in what you're creating matter.

The second lesson is that it's not about you.

One of my favorite pieces of advice is, "You're not more important than coffee."

If an event has to choose between having coffee or having a keynote speaker, you're probably gone. They're picking coffee.

Erin: They're definitely picking coffee.

Rich: But the bigger point is this: whether you're a speaker, leader, salesperson, attorney, professional service provider, or anyone else, if you put the other person first, everything else unfolds the way it should.

I've seen speakers go onstage and make the entire thing about themselves, their show, and their ego.

It bombs.

When somebody gets up there to truly engage the audience, help them, and serve them, people feel it.

The same thing happens with DJs.

And the same thing happens if you're pitching a client or running a team meeting. That's an audience too.

If you show up with confidence in what you're doing, but your number-one priority is helping the people in front of you, that energy speaks for itself.

You'll build better relationships and connect with people differently.

Every Meeting Is a Stage

Erin: That translates directly to people in traditional corporate roles too.

You can walk into a board meeting, staff meeting, presentation, or one-on-one and feel that same stage fright.

You start believing perfection is the game.

But even if you're the person leading the meeting or walking everyone through the PowerPoint, it's not about you.

How do you make the other people feel?

How do you make sure they're engaged?

Rich: Exactly.

And it's hard to fake.

People need to spend time off the stage thinking about what they do, why they do it, and how they help people.

Your "stage" could be a boardroom. It could be a speaker stage. It could be a DJ booth. It could be whatever auditorium your profession puts you in.

When you're serving people and helping people, you make them feel good, but you also feel better because there's meaning behind what you're doing.

Behind the Successful Face

Erin: You've coached CEOs, speakers, professional athletes, and even celebrities. What trips people up behind closed doors that might surprise us?

Rich: Deep down, we're all a little insecure.

We all second-guess ourselves.

We all deal with some level of, "I don't know. I'm not sure. Why me? Can I do this?"

People put their successful face on for the world, and we forget they're human.

People get hurt. They fail. They get scared.

I'll coach somebody who looks incredibly successful from the outside, and then behind the scenes they'll say, "I don't know," or, "I tried this and it didn't work, and it really hurt."

I think one of the reasons I connect with people is that I treat everybody like a human being I care about.

When you do that, you connect differently.

When a relationship is transactional and you're clearly after something, people can smell it like a shark smells blood in the water.

Serve people first.

Reach out genuinely. Ask questions that show you actually give a damn about who they are as people.

We all want to feel seen and heard and respected, so show that and you'll get it back.

Consistency Beats Trying to Knock It Out of the Park

Erin: You've kept the weight off for 27 years, so obviously consistency has been a huge part of your life.

What do people misunderstand about consistent effort?

Rich: We have this idea that every time we do something it has to be some knock-it-out-of-the-park experience.

That's not accurate.

Let's say you want to get back into working out.

If you go stretch for three minutes, that's something.

If you do a one-minute plank, that's something.

If you walk for five minutes, that's success.

That is consistency of effort.

There are days I feel great. I'm working out, I'm listening to music, and everything clicks.

There are other days when the last effing thing I want to do is lift a weight.

If I do 10 minutes on one of those days, I can call it a success.

At my level of energy and care in that moment, doing something is a win.

I don't slay every workout.

Sometimes I get up intending to work out and realize I'm not going to do it well. So instead of beating myself up, I shift my mindset and say, "Today I'm going to deal with whatever garbage is holding me back, and tomorrow I'm going to show up better."

Erin: I think the other part of consistency is choosing the thing you're actually likely to do.

People ask, "Should I ride a bike? Should I run? Should I walk? Should I lift weights?"

Pick the thing you're most likely to keep doing.

I was just talking to my son, who is trying to grow his speaking platform. He said he needed to figure out the marketing stuff.

I gave him a bunch of options and then told him, "You have to pick the thing that actually excites you."

All of these things can work, and all of them can fail.

Pick the thing you're most likely to consistently do.

The same applies to leadership.

Leadership can feel like you're supposed to read 72 books and do 80 things every day.

What if you picked one thing you were going to consistently do instead?

The Best Leaders Are Still Human

Rich: As people move up in organizations and take on more responsibility, they often become more visible, more guarded, and more concerned about the impact of their decisions.

At the same time, there are so many corporate experts and thought leaders telling people how they're supposed to lead that we start thinking we need to show up like Simon Sinek, Mel Robbins, or somebody else every day.

The best leaders I ever worked for or worked with were human beings.

They were vulnerable.

They were honest.

And they cared.

I've worked for great bosses, and I've worked for dumpster-fire bosses.

The stark difference is that the great ones cared and stayed human.

Read the books. Listen to the podcasts. Go to the seminars.

But don't lose track of why you're doing what you're doing or what makes it meaningful and fun for you.

Erin: I've joked that from a traditional Leadership 101 perspective, I'm probably a B-minus.

I'm not a great planner. I might walk into a meeting without an agenda. I don't always package feedback perfectly.

But I always felt like authenticity was this trump card.

It didn't wipe away every mistake, but if you can set aside your ego, be honest, show humility, and genuinely care about people, that covers a lot.

Being Good at the Job Does Not Automatically Make You a Good Leader

Rich: One mistake organizations make is assuming, "This person is really good at the thing, so we should make them the leader of the thing."

You're a great salesperson, so we make you a regional sales director.

You're a great marketer, so we make you the chief marketing officer.

That doesn't automatically mean you're going to be a great leader.

Sometimes people don't even want the leadership job, but they feel guilty saying no because it comes with more money, credibility, or status.

Organizations need to become better at identifying who actually wants to lead and who has the potential to do it well.

And once you become a leader, the job changes.

If you're a regional director of sales, you aren't primarily selling anymore.

You're guiding and coaching other people to become better salespeople.

It's literally a people job, not a thing job.

I coached somebody once who kept saying, "I don't understand why they don't do this. I don't understand why they complain about that."

And I said, "Ask them."

Ask them why they're not motivated.

Ask them what they need.

You're their coach.

The coach of a football team isn't running onto the field and playing with the seventh graders. The coach prepares them to play.

That's what leaders do.

It's about serving your people.

And you have to remember that what worked for you may not work for everybody.

Different people require different communication, different motivation, and different support.

As a leader, you need to ask questions, become more socially aware, develop trust, and understand the nuance of each person on your team.

When "Why Not?" Means Trusting Your Judgment

Erin: We ask every guest about their "Buck That" moment. What's a time when you went against what was expected, felt a little uncomfortable doing it, but good things happened because of it?

Rich: I was working at a law firm doing business development, and one of the attorneys and I identified a huge business opportunity.

It was going to require some extra work and a little thinking outside the box, but we mapped out a path to make it happen.

I went to my CMO and explained the idea.

She said, "Absolutely not."

She didn't ask a single question.

Not, "Tell me more." Not, "What could we gain?" Not, "What would this take?"

Just no.

I was pissed because I felt like the idea had been dismissed without any curiosity.

Now, I'll do crazy things and take chances, but I'm also calculated about it. I'm not reckless.

I had really thought through this opportunity, and I believed it would work.

So I did it anyway.

I recruited a few people who were willing to help me after hours. We got the project finished ahead of the deadline and launched it.

Eventually my CMO appeared in my doorway holding a printed copy of the email announcing the initiative I had been told not to do.

She said, "What is this?"

On the outside I was very apologetic.

On the inside, I was thinking, "Ha."

She was absolutely livid.

But two things happened.

The attorney I partnered with ended up getting national recognition in The Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg and became a recognized expert on the subject.

Later, after I had left the firm, he called me.

He had just signed the biggest deal in the firm's history.

He told me, "I just want to thank you for sticking your neck out. You believed in me and you believed in this project."

I'll never forget that.

I'm not advocating complete rebellion.

But sometimes you have to trust yourself enough to recognize that you've thought something through and you know what the right move is.

Sometimes you need to do what's right for the business, but do it your way.

Make Work Suck Less by Finding a Way to Have Fun

Erin: Last question. What's one thing people can do to make work suck less?

Rich: Find a way to have fun.

Even if you're sitting there thinking, "I'm an accountant. How?"

One of the things I do with audiences is build playlists together. Everybody scans a QR code and submits a song that makes them happy.

The playlists are hilarious and amazing.

Then I send the playlist back to the company and tell everybody to keep the link.

When you need five minutes of happiness, five minutes of energy, or five minutes to shift your mood, go to the playlist and pick a song.

It may not even be your song, but somebody you work with chose it because it makes them happy.

Try something new.

Take five minutes.

Have the ridiculous singing and dancing party in your office or cubicle if that's what makes the day better.

There is always a way to have more fun.

You just have to figure out what that looks like for you.

Erin: Why not?

Rich: Exactly. Why not?

Nicole shares an update that she's becoming "boss lady" again, which means rediscovering every leadership trigger she thought she'd already dealt with.

You'll also hear Erin and Nicole talk about interim leadership, over-functioning, trying to prove yourself, doing two jobs for approximately "stripper money," and the uncomfortable realization that growth doesn't mean your old habits disappear. It means you catch them faster.

They also get into Ella, Erin's daughter, leaving for college, and why Erin refuses to adopt the whole "my baby is leaving me" Sucky Soundtrack just because everyone else does. Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

• Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram
• Take our simple, fun and insightful "What's your workplace superhero name?" quiz
• Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book, You Do You-ish
• Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.
• Work with Us
• Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsuitable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

"Sucky songs don't stop coming. It's just how quickly you hear them and rewrite them."

"Communication is the response you get back."

"Don't play to not lose. Play to win. Play to freaking win."

"While you're testing me out, I'm testing it out."

Think you're bad at storytelling at work? You might just be doing it backwards.

In this Micro Motivator, Erin shares the simple storytelling mistake that makes job interviews, presentations, and workplace communication way harder than they need to be.

In this episode, you'll hear:

• How to find the right story without forcing it
• Why your best stories can do more heavy lifting than you think
• How to make storytelling at work feel natural, not painfully rehearsed

Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

• Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram
• Take our simple, fun and insightful "What's your workplace superhero name?" quiz
• Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book, You Do You-ish
• Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.
• Work with Us
• Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsuitable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

"People don't care how long it takes as long as they're engaged."

"Stories aren't selfish."

"I would argue that all stories have branches like a tree, and they have many different points they can make."

"Your life is just a collection of stories. Now, go tell them."

The Easiest Way to Tell More Stories at Work

This transcript has been edited for clarity and length.

Storytelling at work doesn't have to feel forced or rehearsed. In this Micro Motivator, Erin shares why stories are so effective in workplace communication, the common mistake people make when trying to find the "right" story, and a simple way to build a story library you can use for job interviews, presentations, meetings, and more.

Why We Avoid Telling Stories at Work

Erin: Stories are remembered far more effectively than facts and figures. And yes, I realize the irony of starting that statement with a fact.

There are a lot of reasons people avoid telling stories at work. Maybe you think you're not a good storyteller. Maybe you don't think you have any good stories. But one of the biggest reasons is that people assume stories take too much time.

You think, "People don't have time to listen to a long story. It'll be faster if I just get to the point."

But people generally don't care how long something takes if they're engaged.

Stories Aren't Selfish

Erin: Stories also aren't selfish. When you tell a story, the people listening start riding sidecar next to you.

If you talk about your brother, they may start thinking about their sister. If you tell a story from high school, they start remembering their own experiences from high school.

A story might technically be about you, but the listener naturally connects it to their own life. Storytelling becomes a shared experience.

The Storytelling Mistake Most People Make

Erin: Here's the mistake I see people make when they're preparing for something like a job interview or a big presentation: they start with the scenario and then try to think of a story that fits it.

That is hard. Our brains aren't really wired to work that way.

Instead, start by creating a story library.

That's really just a fancy word for a list. It could live in a notebook, on your phone, or even in your head. Start by identifying about 10 stories you know well.

Some might be funny stories from your personal life. Others might come from your career. Some might simply be everyday experiences that can become metaphors or analogies.

One Story Can Make Many Different Points

Erin: Here's where the magic happens: most stories don't have only one point.

Think of a story like a tree with multiple branches. Maybe you went shopping and had an interesting customer experience. That one experience could become a story about customer service, packaging, positioning, communication, expectations, or dozens of other things.

Even something as simple as pulling weeds in your garden could become a metaphor for persistence, solving recurring problems, getting to the root cause, or dealing with something you thought you had already fixed.

When you begin with stories you already know, storytelling becomes much easier. You're not inventing something on the spot. You're taking an experience you're comfortable talking about and deciding which point you want it to illustrate.

How to Use a Story Library in Job Interviews

Erin: Job interviews are a perfect example. Instead of trying to predict every question an interviewer might ask, prepare your top stories from your career.

Each story can probably demonstrate several different things depending on how you frame it: leadership, problem-solving, communication, resilience, teamwork, conflict, innovation, or growth.

That also helps you sound more natural. You're telling a story you genuinely know instead of trying to force a rehearsed answer into a question you hoped they would ask.

Your life is just a collection of stories. Now go tell them.

What if the reason people aren't buying, engaging, staying, or following your lead isn't because they need another motivational poster about "teamwork"?

It might be because you have no idea what actually matters to them.

In this episode, Erin sits down with David Allison, founder of the Valuegraphics Research Company and author of The Values Map, to talk about why demographics, generic corporate values, and a bunch of buzzwords slapped on an office wall don't tell us nearly as much as we think they do.

David shares how understanding what matters most to people can make you a better leader, marketer, salesperson, and overall human trying to get other humans to do things.

They also dig into how to uncover someone's real values without creepily asking, "So...what are your deepest values?" and why values alignment might explain why certain jobs, people, opportunities, and even parties just click while others make you want to fake a babysitter emergency and leave.

In this episode, you'll hear:

• Why corporate values often become expensive wallpaper and what actually motivates employees
• Three questions that reveal what matters most to someone without turning the conversation into a therapy session
• How to use curiosity and the "Third Why" to get past surface-level small talk
• Why understanding someone's values can make selling, leading, and influencing a whole lot easier
• How David realized the traditional definition of success was basically a lie for him and why building your work around what matters most can make it suck significantly less

Resources Mentioned in the Episode:

• Check out David's Website: www.davidallisoninc.com
• Learn more about Value Graphics: www.valuegraphics.com
• Pre-order David's book, "The Values Map: Discover What Drives You and How to Move Others"
• Follow David on LinkedIn at davidallisoninc/

Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

• Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram
• Take our simple, fun and insightful "What's your workplace superhero name?" quiz
• Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book, You Do You-ish
• Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.
• Work with Us
• Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsuitable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

"What matters most to us drives everything we do."

"Your corporate values are not the human values of the people who are showing up at your corporation."

"Authenticity is, I'm gonna say, not a value, it's the end result of values alignment."

"It was, 10 years of living a lie that I didn't know was a lie, because I'd only been taught that this was the truth."

Podcast Transcript

Erin Hatzikostas sits down with David Allison, founder of the Valuegraphics Research Company, to explore what really motivates people at work. They unpack the difference between corporate values and human values, how leaders and salespeople can discover what matters most to someone, why values alignment influences engagement and decision-making, and how understanding your own values can help you build a career that actually fits.

Why "Values" Might Be the Wrong Word

Erin: What's the biggest misconception you get when people call you the values guy or talk about the research you do around values?

David: One of the biggest confusions is just the word values. We're all used to sitting in boardrooms talking about mission, vision, values. The CEO sends out the annual note saying they've finally figured out the corporate values, and usually they're the same as everybody else's corporate values. They go up on the wall behind the receptionist, everybody's happy, and then they're forgotten about 24 hours later.

We also run around talking about what we think our values are. Politicians tell us what our values are. So I actually don't love using the word anymore.

What works better is asking: What matters most?

What matters most to you? What matters most to your customers? What matters most to your employees? That gets much closer to the kind of values I'm researching.

Erin: And it feels more distinctive too. Instead of asking somebody for five or ten values, you can start with one or two things that really matter.

David: Exactly. Through our research, we've identified 56 values. And the interesting thing is that you can't simply ask people what their values are, because they'll either intentionally or unintentionally tell you what they want their values to be, or what they want you to think their values are.

Instead, you ask about behavior. What do you do all day? How do you feel about this thing? What does this topic mean to you?

When you listen to what people are actually doing and start mapping their behaviors, you can work backward and understand what matters most to them.

What Hockey Can Tell You About Someone's Values

David: I'm Canadian, so let's use hockey.

If somebody says they're a hockey fan, don't just stop there. Ask how often they go to games. Do they watch at home? Who do they watch with? Friends? Family? Do they take clients to games? Do they own a jersey? If their team gets eliminated, will they cheer for another team or stop watching completely?

You're asking them about something they're excited to talk about. But underneath their answers, you're hearing their values.

If they refuse to cheer for another team, maybe loyalty matters a lot to them. If every hockey experience involves their friends but never their family, that tells you something about the relative importance of friendship and family in that context.

You listen to what people do, and from there you start to see what matters most.

Erin: That's the legit researcher part. You're discerning the thing without actually asking them the thing.

The Pink Van: Why Assumptions About People Get Us in Trouble

Erin: Let's make this practical. Our listeners might be in sales, leadership, or running businesses. How does this help somebody market better, sell more, or become a better leader?

David: I'll give you an example from our research.

I was preparing for a keynote for a group of employers in the blue-collar trades. They were dealing with a major talent shortage and wanted to understand how to get more people interested in joining the trades.

Our research found that people considering careers in the trades dramatically over-indexed around a value called service to others. They wanted to know they were doing something that helped people and made a difference.

The employers were already talking about things like earning more money, getting out of shift work, and avoiding the cost of college. Those are logical benefits.

But they weren't saying, "This is your chance to be in a helping profession."

After my keynote, a business owner came up to me. He had seven offices across the Southern United States with fleets of service vans. In each fleet, one van was painted pink, and all of the money earned by that van went toward breast cancer research because of a personal story involving his wife.

I thought that was the story.

He said, "No. The real story is that every day my guys fight over who gets to be in the pink van."

Erin: Wow.

David: Think about that. If you were marketing to people in the trades based on stereotypes, would you ever have gotten to pink vans?

Probably not. You'd be talking about football, tailgates, country music, or whatever other assumptions you had about the audience.

But the answer was pink vans.

There's almost always a pink van in the research. Something that makes you say, "We never would have guessed that, but now it makes complete sense."

When you understand what matters most to people, you can use it to market, motivate, inspire, build policies, engage employees, and make strategic decisions.

Three Questions That Reveal What Matters Most

Erin: What about people who can't hire your company to conduct a big research study? What questions could they ask employees or clients to get closer to this information themselves?

David: We have three questions we call the three telltale questions. We've tested versions of them with people around the world.

The important part is that you don't ask one person once and assume you've figured everything out. Ask a lot of people and listen for patterns. Those patterns are the signals in the noise. That's where the values start bubbling to the surface.

David: The first question is: Why do you go to work?

Someone might immediately say, "To pay my bills." Fine. Ask why else.

Maybe their friends are there. Maybe work is their creative outlet. Maybe they feel like they're making a difference. Maybe it's where they feel useful.

They're telling you why they choose to spend such a huge portion of their life doing this thing.

The second question is: Why would you give away half of your lottery winnings?

If someone says they wouldn't, tell them to imagine they won a lottery where giving away half was required. Then ask where they'd give it and why.

That's a major behavioral decision. The "why" behind it is usually a value talking.

The third question is: If you could send one message to yourself 10 years ago, what would it be?

Listen to whether they talk about family, friendship, work, stress, money, kids, health, or something else. Whatever comes up tells you something about what matters most to them.

Erin: That's really good.

The Values Corporate America Often Misses

Erin: Is there a value corporations tend to underestimate? Something that leaders might not put in their top five, but your research shows matters a lot?

David: Every workforce is different, so I wouldn't prescribe one value to every company. But there is a cluster that appears again and again.

Of the 56 values we've identified, five show up constantly across different industries and groups. We call them the togetherness values: belonging, family, friendship, relationships, and community.

Those aren't interchangeable. Belonging is different from community. Community is different from relationships. Companies tend to lump them all together, but you need to understand which one actually matters to your people.

The broader point is that humans want some form of connection.

So look at your employee research, surveys, hallway conversations, and everything else you already know about your workforce. Which form of togetherness seems to matter most?

Then lean into it.

David: Because here's the secret to everything: What matters most to us drives everything we do.

If you want people to be more engaged, stop quitting, or actually care about the work they're doing, you have to give them more of what matters most.

Your Corporate Values Are Not Your Employees' Human Values

David: One of the biggest mistakes corporations make is spending two years and millions of dollars figuring out their corporate values and then wondering why employees aren't behaving according to them.

Your corporate values are not the human values of the people who are showing up at your corporation.

You've only done half the job.

The company might decide creativity is one of its core values. Great. But suppose personal growth is one of the strongest human values among your employees.

Now you need to connect the dots.

Show employees how being creative at work helps them grow as people. Explain why the behavior you're asking for gives them more of something that already matters deeply to them.

If you don't make that connection, they'll look at "creativity" written on the wall and think, "Okay, whatever. That doesn't matter to me."

Corporate values might actually be better described as guiding principles or a list of ways the organization wants people to behave.

Stop Turning Values Into Expensive Wallpaper

Erin: You just hit one of my hot spots.

It's not enough to say you're a "family-first organization." Tell people what that actually means.

Maybe it means you're not expecting someone to answer emails from the soccer field. Maybe leaders who have ideas over the weekend schedule the email to go out Monday instead of firing it off immediately.

Specificity is what makes those values feel real.

Even something like safety can be communicated in a more human way. Instead of just saying, "We believe in OSHA adherence," explain that you want people to leave work safely and go home to grill burgers with their family that night.

It's not just about the value. It's about how you talk about it and how you put it into action.

I recently talked to a company whose mantra was "grit and gratitude." I loved that because it's only two things, it's memorable, and there's a little juxtaposition between them.

Companies sometimes think more is better. Maybe you're better off choosing one or two things and going deeper.

David: I like grit and gratitude because it doesn't sound like everybody else. Under those two ideas, you can still have many different behaviors and principles. But at least there's something distinctive to connect to.

How Understanding Values Tripled a Fundraising Target

Erin: What's one example where an organization used your research and made a change that had a really profound impact?

David: We worked with a hospital foundation in Canada that wanted to attract more high-net-worth donors and increase the size of their gifts.

We profiled people in the community who had previously donated to health-related causes but had never donated to this particular foundation.

An interesting pattern emerged.

Many of the prospective donors were women who had recently been widowed and, for the first time in their lives, were making major financial decisions independently.

Our research showed how important that newfound independence and agency were to them.

So the foundation changed its approach.

Instead of saying, "Here's where your money is going," they said, essentially, "Your gift could help us in several different ways. Which area would you like your money to support?"

They sat down with donors and let them decide what mattered to them.

By giving those women agency over the decision, the foundation tripled its fundraising target.

Erin: Wow.

David: They framed their strategy, marketing, and messaging around what mattered most to those people.

The decision suddenly became an easy yes because the organization wasn't just asking for money. It was giving people an opportunity to act on something they deeply valued.

What Values Alignment Feels Like

Erin: I think about this in my own life too. When I was evaluating financial advisors, it was amazing how few people seemed interested in understanding what mattered to me.

For me, I wanted someone I could actually connect with and have real conversations with. Not a bunch of BS.

If somebody had simply asked me what was most important to me, I would have basically handed them the answer to how to sell to me.

David: And here's what's interesting about those situations.

When you find a person, product, job, or situation that genuinely aligns with what matters most to you, you often notice the absence of things.

You're not second-guessing yourself. You're not lying awake at night running the pros and cons through your head. You're not constantly trying to convince yourself to make the relationship work.

It just works.

Erin: It clicks into place like a Lego.

David: Exactly.

Think about parties. There are parties where you walk in and immediately think, "Nope. How quickly can we leave?"

And then there are parties where you want to stay all night.

You may not be able to explain exactly why. Maybe it's the people, the music, the room, the energy, or some combination of all of it.

But something about that environment aligns with what matters to you.

Is Authenticity a Value?

Erin: This is where your work and mine dovetail. People are craving something they can connect to, whether it's a salesperson, a leader, or a company.

Wallpaper corporate values aren't enough. You need specificity, examples, and authenticity. Give people something they can plug into so they can determine whether it aligns with them.

And it's actually better if someone can clearly say, "No, this doesn't align with me," than to give them nothing but vanilla and leave them thinking, "I don't know."

David: You said earlier that authenticity might be the 57th value. I'm going to reframe that.

Authenticity is, I'm gonna say, not a value, it's the end result of values alignment.

If you're living authentically, you're living according to what matters most to you.

Erin: I think authenticity might also be part of how you uncover the values in the first place. It's the stories, uncommon language, specificity, and willingness to actually expose who you are that allow people to feel what those values really mean.

David: I think we're talking about the same thing from different layers. You're looking at the umbrella. I'm down in the weeds.

The Question That Changed a High-Stakes Negotiation

Erin: I have a story about the phrase "what matters most."

When I became interim CEO, I had to renegotiate our largest contract. The vendor wanted more money, and giving it to them could have made an already difficult financial situation much worse.

It was high stakes, and I'm not exactly known for being a giant planner.

Early in the first conversation, I asked the executive, "What matters most to you in this negotiation?"

He wasn't expecting the question, so he answered honestly.

His company expected to pursue an IPO, and long-term contracts were incredibly important because investors would want confidence that major clients weren't about to leave.

Suddenly, I understood that this negotiation wasn't only about price. A long-term agreement mattered tremendously to him.

Switching vendors would have been incredibly difficult for us anyway, so I was perfectly comfortable discussing a long-term contract.

That one question completely changed what I understood about the negotiation.

David: "What matters most to you about this situation?" or "What matters most to you about this outcome?" are fantastic questions in sales and negotiations.

But you can also learn a lot by simply paying attention and being curious.

How to Discover Someone's Values Through Small Talk

David: Let's use you as an example.

There's a photo behind you. What's it a picture of?

Erin: My family. My husband and my two children.

David: And I can see books behind you. What's one of the most recent books you added?

Erin: Probably Fans First by Jesse Cole from the Savannah Bananas.

David: Are you a baseball fan?

Erin: Not specifically. I'm a big sports fan, though.

David: Where did that come from?

Erin: My grandmother.

She passed away when she was 62, so I was only 11. But I remember sitting in her living room with her. She was about 4'11", sitting in a green leather chair beside the dialysis machine she used at home, smoking a cigarette with a police scanner nearby.

She lived in a town of about 800 people, so I'm not sure how much exciting police activity there was to scan.

And she always had sports on.

She didn't just watch sports. She participated. She yelled at the TV. She was spicy. She absolutely hated Notre Dame, so I still hate Notre Dame today basically as an ode to her.

For a woman of her generation, being that passionate about sports was unusual.

And I think that's where I got it.

The other reason I still love sports is the authenticity of it. Nobody knows what's going to happen. It's not scripted. I love the energy and unpredictability.

I also love the lack of commitment. I can watch and leave whenever I want.

David: That little conversation already gave me several clues.

Family is important to you. Creativity is clearly there. I hear some tradition in the way you talk about carrying your grandmother's influence forward.

Experiences are important to you. The way you described sitting in that room with your grandmother is incredibly vivid.

And when you said you like being able to leave whenever you want, independence came roaring to the forefront.

Erin: One thousand percent.

And what's interesting is that most people stop too soon.

They see the family photo and ask, "Are those your kids?" Or they notice something from Michigan and ask, "Are you from Michigan?"

But then they stop.

To uncover what matters to someone, you have to be genuinely curious enough to ask the next question.

The Third Why

David: There's a technique I call The Third Why.

You might ask somebody why they chose to have a family photo taken at a particular place. They'll give you an answer.

Then you ask why that mattered.

And then you go one level deeper again.

Three whys down is often where people start telling you about a value.

The first answer is usually surface level. The second starts getting somewhere. By the third, you're getting closer to what is actually driving the decision.

Erin: That's the key. You can't necessarily plan all of those questions ahead of time. You have to actually listen and be curious enough to follow where the answer goes.

When the Traditional Definition of Success Stops Working

Erin: We ask everyone for a "buck that" story, meaning a time when you bucked the norm, stopped following the expected path, and did something different. What's yours?

David: Quitting the big company and going out on my own.

That was scary.

I remember the first days working from home, finding all kinds of ways to stall. Making sure the pencils were in exactly the right place. Rearranging things. Eventually you realize there's nothing left to organize. You actually have to do the work.

But as we've been talking about, I have an independence streak a mile wide.

I once told my coach I couldn't understand why I wasn't getting anything done even though I had deadlines everywhere.

He asked if I'd blocked the work on my calendar.

I said yes.

He asked, "So why aren't you doing what's on your calendar?"

And I realized: because I don't want my calendar telling me what to do.

Erin: Because you told yourself to do it, and now yourself can't tell you what to do.

David: Exactly. My calendar is bossing me around, and I'm resisting my own calendar.

That independence was one of the values pushing me toward working for myself.

The Day David Couldn't Get on the Elevator

Erin: Was there traditional career advice you followed for a while and eventually realized wasn't right for you?

David: Keep your job.

Why would you work for yourself and rely on your own ability to earn a living when you could get a steady paycheck every two weeks?

I grew up at a time when the path to success seemed much narrower. It felt like the goal was to become the CEO of Coca-Cola.

Erin: Or become a consultant to the CEO of Coca-Cola. Those were basically the two business models we knew.

David: Exactly.

The world told me I was supposed to run as fast as possible up the corporate ladder. Learn to love the suits and ties. Play the politics. Run a board.

Eventually I realized it wasn't working for me.

I actually had a breakdown.

I was working for a big company and one morning I was standing in the elevator lobby waiting to go upstairs.

I couldn't get on the elevator.

It felt like there was a physical barrier in front of me. I could not make myself get on that elevator and go face everything waiting upstairs.

So I turned around, went home, and called in to say, "I don't think I'm coming back."

It took me almost a year to recover from that and start building what I needed to build on my own.

David: It was 10 years of living a lie that I didn't know was a lie, because I'd only been taught that this was the truth.

When I finally figured out it wasn't the truth, at least not for me, it was like being slapped across the face.

That's something I try to pass along now.

Whatever the internet tells you, Instagram tells you, your parents tell you, or society tells you is the path to success is only useful if it's actually your path to success.

Figure out what matters most to you. Figure out your values. Then craft your version of life and run in that direction.

Erin: And the experience you went through is part of what allows you to give that lesson to somebody else now.

David Allison's Advice for Making Work Suck Less

Erin: What's your final piece of advice for making work suck less?

David: Find ways to make your work more about what matters to you.

Volunteer for that project. Take the extra assignment that aligns with you. When you can, move away from the work that doesn't.

Even if you're working inside a set of constraints and don't have much flexibility, almost everybody has some ability to maneuver. You can choose what you're going to lean into and what you're not.

Make your work more about what matters most to you, and you'll be happier.

Erin tried to become a "better" speaker.

She got the coach.

Did the reps.

Rehearsed the lines.

Followed the advice.

And then realized she may have accidentally polished the magic right out of herself.

In this solo episode, Erin shares what happened when a huge speaking opportunity pushed her into full preparation mode, why over-rehearsing made her feel less connected on stage, and the old coaching advice that came back swinging:

Trust your creative process.

This one is for anyone who has ever tried to improve themselves and accidentally started sanding down the exact thing that made them stand out.

In this episode you'll hear:

-Why "best practices" are only useful if they actually work for you

-How over-preparing can make you technically better but less you -Why Erin had to 50% Rule her own speaking proces

-The difference between memorizing words and connecting to the message

-Why your weird little way of doing things might be the whole damn point Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

• Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram
• Take our simple, fun and insightful "What's your workplace superhero name?" quiz
• Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book, You Do You-ish
• Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.
• Work with Us
• Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsuitable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

• "Trust your creative process."
• "I spent more time searching for the words than searching for the feeling and the passion."
• "What's worked for you in the past actually might work in the future."
• "Constantly look for ways to improve without throwing away what makes you you."

Trust Your Creative Process

Editor's note: This transcript has been edited for clarity, length, and readability.

In this solo episode, Erin Hatzikostas shares what happened when she followed traditional public speaking advice so closely that she lost some of the authenticity that made her effective. She explores over-preparation, creative confidence, the 50% Rule, and how to improve your work without abandoning the process that makes you uniquely good at it.

When "Leveling Up" Starts to Change You

Erin: Over the last nine months, I've gone through a journey that feels full circle, ironic, and maybe even a little hypocritical.

Erin: I preach authenticity. In my second book, I talk about the 50% Rule: whenever you're doing something, keep some of what works, introduce something new, and throw out the pieces that feel inauthentic or simply do not fit you.

Erin: I'm also a professional speaker. That's my main occupation, and last summer my speaking career was really starting to pick up steam. Then I was selected to speak at the International Association of Speaking Bureaus conference. These are the people who often help organizations find speakers for major events, so getting the chance to speak in front of them felt like a very big deal.

Erin: There were almost 100 applicants, and only six of us were selected. Speaking can be a roller coaster. You are constantly trying to earn the next opportunity, even after you've had success. But this felt like one of those moments where I thought, "Okay, Erin. This is your chance. Get your act together."

The Pressure to Rehearse Perfectly

Erin: Around that same time, I had started working with a true speech and vocal coach, Darcy Webb. She was wonderful because she did not try to turn me into somebody else. She understood what made me, me, and helped bring more of that out.

Erin: She helped me embrace the facial expressions I naturally make. She also told me to stop whispering. I insisted I was not whispering, but then I watched the recordings and realized, "Oh. That is a little weird."

Erin: One of the biggest things she taught me was that I needed to rehearse. I needed to put in the hours, record myself, repeat the material, and get the words into my body.

Erin: I resisted that advice for a long time. Then this huge speaking opportunity came along, and I only had 20 minutes. In the speaking world, shorter is often harder. You have to be more concise, make stronger choices, and communicate the point in less time.

Erin: So I decided it was time to become the polished, mega-professional speaker I thought I was supposed to be. I rehearsed and rehearsed.

Why Perfect Preparation Did Not Create a Perfect Performance

Erin: I already had some baggage around over-rehearsing. When I did my TEDx talk in 2020, I practiced it so much that the delivery stopped feeling like me. I still love the content, but the performance felt too controlled. My passion did not fully come through.

Erin: Still, I prepared heavily for the speakers bureau conference. I used some of my best material, knew what I wanted to say, and felt ready.

Erin: Then the event came. I did not flop, but I did not knock it out of the park either.

Erin: I am always trying to knock it out of the park, not because I think I work harder than everyone else or because I need people to tell me I'm great. I want to connect. I want people to feel something. That connection is what authenticity can create.

Erin: At first, I found other things to blame. Someone after me absolutely crushed it. My necklace was jangling against the microphone. There were all these little details I could point to.

Erin: But the deeper truth was that I had over-prepared. I was not fully in the moment with the people in front of me. I was delivering something polished, but I was not drawing from that conviction and energy that usually comes from deep inside me and pours into the audience.

When Rehearsal Became the New Habit

Erin: The confusing part was that I had also learned how to rehearse. So for the next several months, I kept doing it.

Erin: I practiced for events in January, February, and March. I crafted catchy lines. I added new language. I made sure I could nail the material.

Erin: The talks went well. I did not bomb. I created customized moments and found creative ways to make each speech feel specific to the audience.

Erin: But something was missing.

Erin: Usually, I can feel the connection in the room. You can see it in people's faces. You know when the audience does not want the experience to end. These events were successful on paper, but they did not feel the same.

Erin: Then I spoke at an event in Chicago. I said everything I meant to say. I did not forget the important parts. Technically, I nailed it. But that thing I care about most still was not there.

Words Versus Intent

Erin: That was when I realized what over-preparing had taken away from me.

Erin: My talks have structure. They are mapped into sections, and I know the points I want to make. I may have specific phrases or stories I want to land, but I have never needed every word written out.

Erin: Before I became so focused on rehearsal, I spent more time thinking about the intent of each section. I would ask, "What am I really trying to get across here? What do I need these people to understand or feel?"

Erin: Then I allowed myself the freedom to communicate that idea in the moment.

Erin: That freedom gave me space to bring in something I heard earlier in the day, respond to the audience, interact more naturally, or follow a thought that came to me while I was speaking.

Erin: When I over-rehearsed, I spent more time searching for the exact words than searching for the feeling, the purpose, and the passion behind them.

Erin: I cannot do both equally well. Some people can. Actors can deliver rehearsed lines with incredible emotional depth. Some speakers can memorize every beat and still make it feel spontaneous. God bless them. That is a real skill.

Erin: But it is not my skill. It is not where I bring the most value.

"Why Don't You Trust Your Creative Process?"

Erin: This brought me back to something my first executive coach taught me years ago when I was still in corporate.

Erin: I was preparing a speech for a leadership event. I had planned the whole talk, but I had not figured out the ending. In my notes, I had essentially written, "And then some bada boom, bada bing ending."

Erin: I went into our coaching session and confessed that I thought I had a major flaw. I told her, "I'm a great starter, but I'm not a great finisher. I worked on this talk for hours, and I still could not complete it."

Erin: I expected her to give me techniques, hacks, or some process that would fix what I believed was broken.

Erin: Instead, she stopped and asked, "Erin, are you typically successful?"

Erin: I told her that I was not successful at everything, but yes, especially when it came to public speaking, I was usually better than average.

Erin: Then she said, "Why don't you trust your creative process?"

Erin: That question has stayed with me for more than eight years.

Advice Is Not an Absolute

Erin: People love to give advice in absolutes. Never start a conversation this way. Always prepare for an interview that way. Follow this formula to find your career path. Use these exact steps to become successful.

Erin: My rule is this: be very cautious about advice that begins with "always" or "never."

Erin: There is more information available than ever, and many people make money by selling certainty. They tell you they have the formula. But even excellent advice may not work exactly as prescribed for you.

Erin: If you talked to 100 successful speakers, probably 99 of them would tell you that you have to do the reps, practice constantly, and rehearse until the material is locked in.

Erin: That may work beautifully for those 99 people. It does not work that way for me.

Erin: My mistake was not the rehearsal itself. My mistake was failing to apply my own 50% Rule. I accepted the advice as a total system instead of asking which parts would help me and which parts would erase something important.

Improve Without Erasing What Makes You Good

Erin: The answer is not to reject coaching, training, or preparation. I have learned so much from all of it.

Erin: I am a stronger speaker now. I understand my voice better. I am more aware of my physical presence. I have new ways to customize talks and prepare meaningful openings. I am continuing to evolve.

Erin: But I am no longer willing to give up the creative process that works for me.

Erin: Now I prepare in my own way. I spend hours thinking, organizing stories, and deciding what each section needs to accomplish. I rehearse important pieces, but I do not force myself to say every sentence exactly the same way every time.

Erin: I focus on the intent. I focus on the passion. I focus on the point I want to make and the people I want to reach.

Erin: When I returned to that process for events in June and July, I could feel the difference. I felt like myself again.

Trust the Evidence From Your Own Life

Erin: I want the same for you.

Erin: People will tell you how to run a meeting, answer interview questions, build a career, lead a team, create content, or prepare for a major opportunity. Learn from them. Borrow what makes you better. Stay open to coaching and improvement.

Erin: But also trust the data from your own life.

Erin: What has worked for you in the past may still work in the future. Your process may need to evolve, but evolution does not require you to throw away the qualities that made you effective in the first place.

Erin: Use the 50% Rule. Keep some of what works. Add new tools. Throw the pieces that do not fit into the trash.

Erin: Constantly look for ways to improve without abandoning what makes you, you.

Erin: Trust your creative process.

Modern work is getting weird.

In this episode, Erin and Nicole talk about career envy, AI "bot sitting," Gen Z's job search chaos, parents overstepping in the hiring process, airport drama, bathroom hideouts, and the deeply human ways people are trying to stand out, stay sane, and survive work right now.

They also unpack one of Erin's favorite new questions for killing comparison: "Would I actually want their life?" Because chasing someone else's version of success only works if you're willing to take the whole life that comes with it.

In this episode you'll hear:

• Why career envy gets a lot less powerful when you zoom out
• How AI slop is changing resumes, hiring, and the way we try to stand out
• What "bot sitting" says about the strange new reality of work
• Why parents need to step away from the hiring manager
• The hilarious and slightly unhinged ways people cope at work

This one is part workplace commentary, part group therapy, part "what the hell is happening out there?" And honestly? We need all three.

Anya Roodnitsky Video: https://www.instagram.com/p/DU6VPHhEgGn/

Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

• Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram
• Take our simple, fun and insightful "What's your workplace superhero name?" quiz
• Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book, You Do You-ish
• Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.
• Work with Us
• Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsuitable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

• "You cannot compare yourself to somebody else without first asking: would I actually want their life?"
• "We do make shit up all the time. It's just usually bad shit about us and good shit about other people. You have the right to flip that."
• "You're creating an entire life you don't have to escape from."
• "If you want to be heard, stand out, picked, chosen, or done business with, AI slop is going to kill you."

Editor's note: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity, readability, and flow while preserving the core conversation and strongest takeaways.

In this episode, Erin Hatzikostas and Nicole Licata unpack the weird, wild, and deeply human ways people are surviving modern work. From career envy and AI "bot sitting" to Gen Z's job search chaos, parents overstepping in hiring, airport drama, bathroom hideouts, and the pressure to stand out in a world full of sameness, this conversation is part workplace commentary, part group therapy, and part "what the hell is happening out there?"

Women, Work, and the Underground Network

Erin: I have some updates. The first one is related to something you just said. I have to laugh at how freaking amazing working women are at multitasking.

This morning, I drove 45 minutes to Southington for an 8:30 coffee meeting with a former client who is now a current client because they're bringing me back again. But before that, I had placed a BJ's Warehouse order at the Southington location because we have a graduation party coming up.

So I had the coffee meeting, got gas under $4, picked up a ridiculous amount of party supplies, came home, sweated my ass off putting it all away, and thought, this is how women work.

People underestimate not only how efficient we are, but also how connected we are.

That reminded me of something else. A few weeks ago, our financial advisors decided to move to another bank for the second time in six years. The first time, we followed them. The second time, we paused.

I happen to use the same financial advisor as my woman work crush, Jean LaTour, who is a former chief investment officer for CBS and Aetna. She is a big deal, authentic as hell, and I'm proud to call her a friend.

When we both got the news, we immediately started texting. I told her the deal Morgan Stanley offered us to incentivize us to stay, which was different from hers. We were sent to different people. We've had lunch. We've compared notes on how the transition has gone.

So story number one is this: do not underestimate women and our ability to get all the things done, whether it's picking up BJ's after a business meeting or quietly sharing information behind the scenes to make sure we get the best deal possible.

Nicole: That reminds me of one of our early episodes about the things women don't talk about. One of the big ones was finances.

It's a mistake I still make sometimes. When things are changing, it can feel overwhelming. You want to trust what's happening. You get comfortable. But these are businesses. These are deal makers. You're their client, and you're paying them.

The more information you have, the better. I applaud you for asking, "Who else is in this with me? Let's have some conversations," instead of blindly going along with a deal that sounded good enough.

Erin: Exactly. And I know we have a lot of male listeners, so I'm not saying women are better. But get women into leadership positions because we are doing this at work too. We're multitasking, sharing information, and doing business differently.

Sometimes that women's network is working under the covers more than people think. And I mean that in the least weird way possible.

The Question That Kills Career Envy

Erin: My second thought is something that has been helping me a lot lately.

I've been feeling really good about a mindset shift I've made around jealousy, comparison, and chasing things I don't actually want.

The speaking business can be ego-driven. I'm not selling widgets. I'm selling myself. So it's easy to get caught up in the idea that more bookings equal more validation.

But I don't want to be a speaker who does 40, 60, or 80 gigs a year. I used to think that was mostly because I didn't want to be on the road that much or because it was too much to balance with family. But it's also because I can't give fully to clients if I'm doing that much.

I have eight gigs between June and September, and I'm at capacity in terms of my ability to customize, understand each client, and not come in with a cookie-cutter talk.

So here's the question that has helped me when I see another speaker's amazing new reel or big event announcement:

Would I want their life?

And I don't mean, "That probably sucks because they're on the road so much." I mean literally: would I want their whole life?

Sometimes I know these people and their backgrounds, and sometimes I don't. But I ask myself, would I want the entire life that comes with that thing I'm jealous of?

The answer is almost always no.

I want my life. I want time with my husband. I want time with my kids. I want breathing room on a Friday. I don't want to take one thing and give up everything else.

You cannot compare yourself to somebody else without first asking, "Would I actually want their life?"

Maybe once in a while the answer will be yes. But even with celebrities, ask yourself: would I want their life?

You don't get to have the thing you're jealous of and keep everything you already have. You can't say, "I want that event with 3,000 people on a stage in Hawaii," without also taking the number of gigs, sacrifices, relationships, lifestyle, location, and everything else that comes with it.

You cannot pick and choose.

That has put me in this place of gratitude for the holistic picture of my life.

When speaker friends ask, "How's it going?" there is often this undertone of, "How many bookings are you doing?" And I've started answering differently. I say, "I really fucking love my life."

Yes, this is the busiest summer I've had speaking. But when you ask how I'm doing, I'm thinking about my daughter having the time of her life in her senior year, my husband and I getting along great, the weather being beautiful, visiting family, and building a life I actually want.

Nicole: What you're saying is interesting because you're not saying don't change or don't evolve. You're saying look at the landscape, the tools, the opportunities, and the framework you actually have.

Don't look at someone else's life with no context about who they are, how they got there, or what sacrifices they made, and assume you can just import one piece of it.

Erin: Yes. And I'm also giving people permission to make shit up.

Let's say someone's title comes across your feed and you think, "I always thought I wanted that role." You don't know that person. So you have the right to create a different narrative.

We make shit up all the time. It's just usually bad shit about us and good shit about other people.

You have the right to flip that.

If you're going to tell stories in your head, tell great stories about yourself too.

Nicole: As long as the narrative gives you balance and helps you dig into where you are instead of making you feel terrible about yourself, it can create growth.

Erin: Exactly. Because when you stop spending so much energy being depressed about where you are, you can actually grow.

And this is where the 50% Rule helps too. Once you do things half-normal, half-you, it becomes almost impossible to compare because you're not trying to do it the same way anyway.

I've told the universe something different. I've said I want around 25 gigs a year. I want balance. I want this life. And the universe has started to deliver exactly what is perfect for me.

Nicole: It goes back to what you said. You're creating an entire life you don't have to escape from.

Erin: Yes. This is not the time in my 50s to create something that looks good on paper but feels terrible in reality. I'm creating a lifestyle.

Authenticity as a Business Differentiator

Erin: My third thought is something I'm still processing.

I had a repeat client who brought me in specifically for their sales organization, which I love because authenticity can sometimes sound like an HR thing. But where I get really excited is when it becomes about differentiation, growing your business, and doing things differently in a tangible way.

This client brought me in for a leadership keynote, and then we worked together for six months doing real-time group coaching with their sales team. We took actual scenarios and worked on making their responses, proposals, and communication more authentic.

Recently, I learned they had their best sales year ever by far.

And they are going through DOJ approval for an acquisition at a 20X EBITDA, which is hard to come by these days. They're not an AI company. The investment community is very focused on AI right now, so this was a big deal.

I am not taking full credit. There are always many factors. But I also don't believe in coincidences.

They invested in differentiating and doubling down on authenticity as their advantage. Then they had a huge sales year, which contributed to the valuation and the sale.

That was pretty freaking cool.

Nicole: They found their mantra, put it into action, and got results. Weird how that works.

Airport Drama

Nicole: I want to share the latest reason I got stopped at the airport, because there is always something.

I was coming back into the United States, and my luggage got flagged. I've been traveling only with carry-on luggage because I'm constantly booking multiple flights with different airlines to maximize scheduling and pricing. The travel market is crazy, and I am not a bazillionaire.

So first, my known traveler ID and redress number disappeared off my ticket. I get sent through multiple lines at JetBlue. They finally put the information back in, and I go to the TSA PreCheck line.

Then they tell me I have to go to the special TSA PreCheck line.

Erin: Who knew those even existed?

Nicole: Exactly. I had already given myself a lot of time, and I had already passed USDA inspection, so no fruit and vegetable jail this time.

Then they immediately flag my bags. They pull them aside. There are officers, dogs, everything.

An agent comes up to me and says, "Ma'am, we've seen some unknown powders in here. Do you have coffee?"

I said, "I do have coffee, but it's in this bag," meaning the backpack he had already handed back to me.

Then he starts going through my suitcase and pulls out a packing cube. He says, "Ma'am, the issue is that your luggage is too well packed. It is too dense."

I was like, "My bathing suit and underwear?"

Then he finds some lady products because I'm a woman in menopause. He asks, "What is this syringe?"

I told him to read the label. He opens it, pushes it out, and realizes it's Lady Lube.

He starts calling over officers and saying it's illegal. Then a woman walks up out of nowhere, slams the suitcase shut, and says, "You're free to go."

Erin: Women to the rescue.

Nicole: Pink underwear, coffee, unknown powders, densely packed luggage, Lady Lube. I was done.

Bot Sitting and the Strange New Reality of Work

Erin: Let's dive into some of the craziest recent workplace stories. Will there be lessons that inspire you and make you a better person? Probably not. Possibly. But mostly, we're here to laugh.

The first one I came across was the concept of bot sitting. Have you heard this term?

Nicole: I have, but explain it.

Erin: It's basically babysitting AI.

I've seen it with my 15-year-old, Mick, who has become really talented with AI, especially coding and building things. But he'll set something up, and then I'll walk into his room and see his laptop out while he's on his phone scrolling videos because he's bot sitting.

He's waiting for AI to crank something out or process.

This article was talking about how AI is supposed to make everyone more efficient, but in companies, people are using AI and then waiting two hours for it to process. So they're basically being paid to scroll their phones and bot sit.

Nicole: I know someone from the art world who just lost his job. He's a young medical researcher, and the only jobs he's being offered are essentially bot sitting jobs.

These are entry-level roles where he helps internal AI systems learn inside research companies. His job is to feed data into the bot, help it spit things out more efficiently, check the results, and fix errors.

That's what he's being offered as a PhD researcher.

Erin: Wow. Bot sitting.

Gen Z, Job Search Chaos, and the Resume That Actually Worked

Erin: That's a good segue into one of my favorite articles: Anya Roodnitsky and her resume.

Anya is a recent Dartmouth grad with a mathematical physics degree. Not a slouch. But the job market is tough, especially for new grads.

She sent out hundreds of resumes, and she didn't just phone it in. She customized them. She did all the things HR people tell you to do. And she got nothing.

So out of frustration and fun, she made a simple, authentic PowerPoint-style resume and posted it on social media.

She did exactly what I talk about all the time: she exposed who she was and her flaws right away. She didn't pretend. She said, basically, "I've been doing hundreds of these, and it's rough out there, so here's what I'm going to do."

She talked about working with nuclear reactors and joked that she was basically Oppenheimer. She included competence, personality, and humor. She even promised to bring in baked goods.

The video got hundreds of thousands of views. She got 52 introductions or coffee chats, 20 referrals, 10 interviews, and landed a job.

Yes. Different is better than better.

If you're going through the same thing every day, whether it's resumes, sales presentations, town halls, or HR emails nobody reads, it is your fault if people aren't paying attention.

You're not pattern interrupting. You're not being authentic. You're not giving people a reason to stop and notice.

In this day and age, especially if you're trying to get hired, AI slop is going to kill you if you want to be heard, stand out, picked, chosen, or done business with.

Nicole: It's also disheartening that we can't trust these giant systems we've created. It feels like you have to be a disruptor just to access society and get a job.

I love her, but it's also fully disheartening for someone like me who would never do that.

Erin: Right. Her example was outlandish, but the broader point is that Gen Z is taking to content and social media because that's what they know. They're frustrated and saying, "Fuck it."

And honestly, this is what I'm saying. This is the future.

Parents, Please Step Away From the Hiring Manager

Nicole: One thing I'm finding as a hiring manager is that students are getting more tools, encouragement, and guidance around networking and mentoring than we had.

That part is good. But with that, I'm having a total Step Brothers moment because I'm getting emails from parents.

Erin: Oh no. When we say work networks, we are not talking about your parents.

Nicole: Do not call me and say, "What does my kid need to do?"

Erin: Are you kidding me?

Nicole: I'm not. Parents are engaged in their kids' lives and professional development in a way our families weren't because the world has changed. But I cannot take that seriously.

It's unfair to the student too. Maybe they're lazy, or maybe they have an overbearing parent. Either way, it makes them look bad.

Erin: It's a red flag. A disqualifying red flag.

And if a parent did contact me, I'd be tempted to ask, "Is this how you've operated throughout their schooling? Have you been stepping in like this?" Because if the answer is yes, there's your reason.

You are the problem. Not just because you picked up the phone now, but because you've probably spent years enabling them instead of slowly stepping back and letting them figure things out.

Nicole: We all understand networks. We all understand nepotism exists. But cold-calling nepotism is a whole different world.

If you're engaging with a hiring manager, make sure it's for a job you want. And ask yourself: if your child were dating someone, would you call that person and ask 27 questions?

Professional and personal relationships are not in totally different universes. They're on the same spectrum.

So from the hiring desk of Nicole: if you're a parent, don't call me.

Workplace Weirdness, Government Voicemails, and HR Stories

Nicole: One of my favorite stories you sent was about the Washington State DMV.

The story was that when people called the DMV and chose Spanish language support, instead of getting Spanish, they got heavily accented English.

I don't know if it's real, but because I work for a government agency, I can absolutely see how this could happen.

Government tech systems are constantly evolving, and agencies don't always have access to all of their own systems. Voicemails are not always recorded by voice actors or vendors. Sometimes it's just someone in IT with a nice voice.

Erin: And maybe they were trying to save money and decided Rosario down the hall would do it.

Nicole: Exactly. Someone says, "She speaks clearly." And suddenly that's the voicemail.

Erin: I think it's real. I tried to look it up, and it didn't immediately flag as fake.

I did have another article on the list about a woman supposedly working three full-time remote jobs, but that one appears to be fake.

Listeners, you'll have to tell us: do you know if the DMV story is real?

The Bathroom Popsicle Bandit and Where People Hide at Work

Nicole: The random HR stories also had me dying. My favorite was the Bathroom Popsicle Bandit.

Apparently, an employee would sit in the bathroom all day eating freeze pops and reading a book on her phone. She was in there so long that someone found her and thought she was dead.

There were freeze pop wrappers all over the floor.

Erin: You can picture it.

Nicole: I can picture it because our bathroom situation at work is not great. We have one stall for a lot of people. The light goes out. The toilet doesn't flush well. And if you sit there too long, it keeps flushing, so people know you're in there.

But sometimes when people are constantly walking into my office, I hide in there. Or I hide in the old lactation room/mail room/storage room. I push the chairs aside just enough to slip in and sit there for 20 minutes with my phone flashlight.

There's no air. No ventilation. But sometimes you need a moment.

Erin: It's mental health. It's better than putting in a mental health claim.

Nicole: I want to know where people hide at work. What are your work hide-and-seek spots?

Mine is the mail room/lactation room/storage room, sometimes the bathroom, near the emergency exit no one uses.

Erin: That reminds me of when my kids were young and wanted to play hide-and-seek. I would grab a glass of wine and go to the hardest place for them to find me.

They would eventually say, "Mom, we give up," and I would just sit there drinking wine. Best game ever.

Substance Coping and Surviving Modern Work

Nicole: A lot of those HR stories involved substance use too. People coming into the office drunk or medicated.

And I'll be honest: people seem much more medicated or open about their medication at work now than I'm used to.

I'm not always sure what counts as substance abuse versus substance coping these days.

Sometimes I like people better on their coping substances than off them. I'm not saying I condone it, but sometimes I'm like, please come to this meeting chilled out.

Erin: Can you blame them with the current workplace?

Nicole: I cannot.

Erin: That's why we share these stories. That's why we share this podcast. It's all part of your medication.

Nicole: We are all living this dream together and showing up every damn day because we've chosen it.

And sometimes you just have to call your squad and ask, "Am I getting the best deal where I am?" Have that conversation.

Erin: Work the underground tunnel.

Nicole: Exactly.

Final Thought

Erin: Modern work is weird. AI is changing the way people apply for jobs, companies are asking people to bot sit, parents are emailing hiring managers, employees are hiding in bathrooms, and everyone is trying to stand out without losing their minds.

But underneath all of it is something deeply human. We're trying to build lives we don't have to escape from. We're trying to stop comparing ourselves to people whose lives we don't actually want. We're trying to be seen, chosen, trusted, and remembered in a world full of AI slop and workplace noise.

And honestly? Sometimes the best thing we can do is laugh, call our people, and ask better questions about what we actually want.

Trust at work isn't built through big promises or polished corporate statements. It's built in the tiny moments.

In this episode, Erin sits down with bestselling author, speaker, professor, and filmmaker Minda Harts to talk about her framework for the 7 Trust Languages and why trust is really a communication issue hiding in plain sight.

In this episode, you'll hear:

-Why leaders need to stop pretending employees don't see what's happening

-How the 7 Trust Languages can help leaders build stronger relationships

-How to rebuild trust after a mistake without rushing the repair

This episode is for anyone who wants to lead with more honesty, communicate with more humanity, and make work suck a whole lot less.

Minda's Website: https://www.mindaharts.com/

Connect with Minda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mindaharts/

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DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsustainable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

"Don't outsource your humanity."

"People are human first and colleagues second."

"Trust is a noun and a verb."

"We can solve for respect, right? We can solve for trust."

Intro Note: This transcript has been edited for clarity, readability, and length while preserving the core conversation and key insights from the episode.

In this episode of b Cause Work Doesn't Have to Suck, Erin Hatzikostas talks with Minda Harts about workplace trust, the seven trust languages, leadership communication, rebuilding trust after mistakes, giving better feedback, psychological safety, and why leaders need to stop outsourcing their humanity.

Why Trust Is the Real Workplace Issue

Erin: I'm fascinated by your background because I'm like, "Oh yeah, she's all about trust. She's a speaker." And then I'm like, "Oh wait, she's a professor. Oh wait, she's a filmmaker. Oh wait, she wrote books."

I'm curious about trust. It's not exactly the sexiest topic, but there must have been a moment or story that made you obsessed with it.

Minda: The obsession actually started during COVID. I was living in New York City at the time, and I woke up around three o'clock in the morning. I kept hearing this voice saying, "The issue is always trust."

I didn't think too much about it in the moment, but I wrote "trust languages" in my notes app. Over time, I kept coming back to it. The more I thought about all the writing I'd done over the years, I realized the real problem I was trying to solve was trust.

In the workplace, when certain things happen, there's usually an expectation underneath that isn't being met. That erodes trust. But often, people don't even know they're doing it.

So I started to see that it's not just a trust issue. It's also a communication issue. If the other person knew what you needed, could that get trust back on the tracks?

In personal relationships, trust is a no-brainer. If I can't trust you, I don't know if this relationship is going to work. But in the workplace, we give people a pass for doing things that aren't trustworthy, and we never have conversations about it.

The Seven Trust Languages

Erin: I love the idea of trust languages because everybody thinks of love languages. You have seven trust languages. Where does it start? Do you need to understand the other person, or are these seven things everyone needs to do?

Minda: My thesis is that we all have a primary, secondary, and tertiary trust language. There may be a time when we're speaking all of them, but if I'm a leader and you report to me, and I want to get the most productivity out of my entire team, not just my go-to people, then in our next one-on-one, I'm going to ask, "What does trust look like to you?"

I want to make sure we have the most harmonious working relationship possible. I want to make sure you get the most out of being on this team. So what does trust look like to you?

When someone answers that question, they'll usually tell you two or three of their trust languages without even knowing the labels.

If I know feedback is important to you, or transparency is important to you, I can make note of that. Then when we're working together, I remember, "Erin values transparency. She values when I'm not being ambiguous. She values feedback that's meaningful and insightful."

I tell people it's about the double E's. We're either enhancing trust or eroding trust.

Erin: Always up or down.

Minda: Exactly. We may not be able to solve everything at work, but we can solve for respect. We can solve for trust.

The Question Every Leader Should Ask

Erin: That question is so powerful. I used to lead a lot of employees, and I'm thinking, "Crap, if I could've simply said in one meeting, 'Trust is important. What does trust look like for you?'"

Minda: I never had a manager ask me that. Not because they didn't want trust with me, but because we're all moving so fast in the workday that we forget there's a human on the other end.

The data shows that if we have more trust, we're more productive and less anxious. I don't want to be the reason someone is spiraling through the day and not even know it.

Erin: Imagine asking that in an interview when you're trying to attract the best talent. You think people aren't going to flock to that? They're going to be like, "Wow, I've never heard that before."

Minda: Yes. And I write about that in the book. If you know acknowledgement is important to you, ask questions in the interview process that help you see whether that environment can provide it.

Some people don't naturally say, "Great job. Thank you for delivering that project. I don't know where we'd be without it." That may not be the language they're most comfortable giving. But you may need that to survive and thrive at work.

So tell people what's important to you. Advocate for yourself. We're not always going to work for the person who asks, "What does trust look like?" Sometimes you have to take the bull by the horns.

Erin: And by sometimes, we mean most of the time.

How to Ask for the Trust You Need

Erin: Most of our listeners are leaders, but let's be honest, they're also employees. Everybody wants to be a great leader, but they also want to know how to be led better.

Can you give an example of how someone might use the trust languages in an interview to understand what kind of manager they'd be working for?

Minda: One trust language that is really important right now is sensitivity, which is about empathy and being mindful of our actions, tone, and behaviors.

If I were interviewing, I might say, "Many people work together in the workplace, but they experience the workplace differently. If I reported to you and there was a natural disaster where I live, and I couldn't get into the office three or five days a week, how would we handle that?"

That question tells me a lot about the manager.

If they say, "Absolutely. Were you impacted by the fires? I know that must have been tough," that tells me something.

But if they say, "Maybe you should move somewhere else because we need someone in the office five days a week," that tells me something too.

You start to see how people humanize you, or whether they're robotic.

Sensitivity, Security, and Psychological Safety

Minda: Another example is what happens in meetings. We've all been in a situation where someone says a joke that isn't funny to everyone. Does the leader sweep it under the rug and let that person keep saying inappropriate things in team meetings?

Or, if I have an issue, can I bring it to you without fear of retribution?

A lot of trust is eroded in big team meetings. People speak over each other. People say things that are inappropriate, not necessarily because they woke up deciding to be inappropriate, but because they're used to talking any kind of way.

That's where psychological safety comes in, which is connected to the trust language of security. Even if we have a difference of opinion, there should still be enough respect for me to have a good conversation with you.

And if someone gives feedback, how do you receive it? Do you say, "I've never heard that before," and get defensive? Or do you say, "Let me consider what you're saying. Tell me more. Let me ask some questions."

These behaviors keep showing up at work, and people don't always realize how detrimental they can be.

Erin: Everybody's different. I'm thinking about two people who support my business. One is more on the sensitivity side. If something gets messed up, I know I need to say, "Dude, no big deal at all." And when something is done well, I need to say the thing that's already inside my head: "You crushed it."

The other person is about as far from sensitive as you can imagine. For her, follow-through probably matters more. She's my operations person. It's more like, "Erin, you said you were going to send me three videos. Send me the three videos."

Understanding those people is really important.

How to Rebuild Trust After You Mess Up

Erin: Rebuilding trust is always a big one. Let's say you screwed something up with a client, customer, or major project. What are some ways to rebuild trust that people may not think of?

Minda: One trust language that matters here is demonstration. Do our actions align with our values?

I can tell you all day that I'm going to make the tacos the way you expect them every time you come to the taco truck. But if every time you come, they're made differently, I'm not demonstrating that you can trust this place.

When we make a mistake, we can acknowledge it. "You know what? We have a new cook. We're training them today. But we value you as a customer."

Then we pay attention. "Oh, you like your cheese sprinkled this way? Now that I know that, I want to demonstrate that you can trust us. Next time you come, I'm going to check the bag before you leave."

It's the show and the tell.

A lot of times in life, we want to skip over the repair part. We say, "I said I'm sorry. Move on." But rebuilding trust requires demonstration over time.

I believe if trust can be broken, it can be rebuilt, if it's not egregious. But it requires action. Trust is a noun and a verb.

Erin: It takes patience. When we mess up, we want instant gratification. We want the wound to be healed right away. In a big corporation, it might be, "We'll give you a fee holiday," because we want something tangible and quick.

But if you slow down and accept that it may be uncomfortable for a little while, then next week you can show up differently. You can go above and beyond. You can demonstrate the repair.

Minda: Absolutely. And we also have to give people the opportunity to rebuild. If we've been burned in our personal or professional lives, sometimes we come into the next situation with our defenses up.

You may be the best boss I've never had yet, but if I'm still holding onto hurts and broken promises from my last situation, I'm not going to get the best out of the situation with you, and you're not going to get the best from me.

So we also have to be self-aware. Is this person really eroding trust, or am I bringing baggage from past experiences?

Erin: Right. It's easy to tell stories like, "The boss is mad at me because I got a three-word email." But maybe the boss is running to another meeting and isn't actually worried about the mistake you made.

What to Do When You Break Trust With Your Boss

Erin: Let's say you mess something up with your boss. Maybe you botch a report, lose a customer, or mess up some technology. Beyond demonstrating that you can get it right next time, what else helps?

Minda: Remember that your boss is human too. They have expectations you may not be aware of, especially if you're new to the team.

You might say, "I know expectations can change depending on priorities, and I want to make sure we're aligned. I really enjoy working on your team, and I want our working relationship to be strong. What do you need from me to do your best work?"

Success is not a solo sport. When you ask that kind of question, they may not say, "Transparency is important to me," or, "Follow-through is important to me," but they'll tell you something that reveals what matters.

Then you can make a mental note. If you say you'll get something done by five and you can't, don't workplace ghost them. Follow up and say, "I know the deadline is approaching. Could I get an extension of one hour? I'll get it to you shortly."

That keeps trust on the tracks.

We create narratives in our heads that people will be upset with us, but most people just want honesty. We all bump up against deadlines. We all make mistakes. The issue is how we communicate it.

The Leadership Mistake That Drives Minda Crazy

Erin: What gets under your skin? What's your biggest leadership pet peeve? What's the simple thing leaders do wrong that you wish they'd change?

Minda: I really value transparency, which is clarity and honesty. What gets under my skin is when leaders act like employees are stupid.

We see the smoke coming out of the chimney. We hear the alarms going off. Then you come and tell us, "There's nothing to worry about. Nothing to see here."

You may not know why the smoke is happening. You may not know why the alarms are going off. But acknowledge it. Say, "I know you've smelled the smoke. I've smelled it too. I don't know exactly what's causing it, but once I do, I'll let you know."

That feels better and keeps trust intact more than pretending nothing happened.

Don't pretend we didn't just do a reorganization. Don't pretend we didn't just lay off half the team. Let's humanize it.

People are human first and colleagues second.

Sometimes leaders think they can't be honest because they're privy to certain information. Then say that. "I don't have all the information right now, but I understand how this might make you feel. If you have questions, book time with me and let's talk it through."

That feels much better than watching someone's work friend get laid off after ten years and then pretending nothing happened.

Erin: I love that. Stop thinking your employees are stupid. The bar is low, isn't it?

Minda: It's so low.

Don't Outsource Your Humanity

Erin: I saw a post where someone asked you a question about AI, and the gremlin that came out of you was, "Don't outsource your humanity." What caused that?

Minda: Someone asked me about using AI in workplace communication. I think it's important to use the tools available to us. But what can happen is I put my thoughts into an agent, then I email you. Then you put your thoughts into an agent, and now you're emailing me back.

At that point, we've taken ourselves out of it. It's just two agents talking to each other.

There's no nuance. The tools don't understand the history of what happened in the meeting. They're getting it from one angle.

So before you press send, just because the grammar is great and the message is direct, take another look. Think about the nuance. Think about the relationship.

When this person finishes reading the email, how are they going to feel? What is the relationship going to feel like?

If we're just two agents talking to each other, we may not be building trust. We may be eroding it. That's why I said, "Don't outsource your humanity."

Erin: Preaching to the choir. I'm an authenticity girl. Sounding smart is now suspicious. Stop sounding smart.

How to Give Tough Feedback Without Eroding Trust

Erin: Can we talk about giving tough feedback? Whether it's an annual review or on the fly, I think the feedback sandwich is over. Maybe that worked when people didn't know they were being sandwiched, but now we all know.

How do you give transparent feedback while still building trust?

Minda: One thing I created is a game called The Trust Catalyst, which helps people practice these conversations so they don't erode trust.

If we're doing a one-on-one or year-end review, I'm not going to start by launching into feedback. If you sit down or appear on Zoom, and the first thing I say is, "That report you did last week should have been done differently," you're immediately thinking, "I didn't know this was a problem."

That sets the tone for the whole meeting.

Think of the seven trust languages as tools. If you have a nail, you're not going to grab a wrench first. You're going to grab the right tool.

Maybe you start with acknowledgement. Maybe you start with sensitivity because you know this person has had a rough year. When you do get to feedback, make sure it's meaningful and gives the person an opportunity to grow.

It's not just what you say. It's how you say it.

You can say, "We need to meet these deadlines more consistently. Is there something you need from me so we can make sure you hit this mark three weeks from now?"

That sounds very different from making someone feel like they may not have a job by the end of the week.

I always go back to the double E's. Is what I'm about to say going to enhance this relationship or erode it?

Think about what you want the end of the conversation to look like. Do you want the person to feel down and out, waiting to turn off the camera? Or is there a way that when you see each other later, the relationship still feels intact?

Growing up, my mom and dad could say the exact same thing to me, but when my dad said it, I wanted to spiral down the wall because his delivery was harsh. My mom could say the same thing, and I would receive it because I knew she was telling me in a way that helped me grow.

That's something leaders and colleagues can do better.

When Your Peer Becomes Your Employee

Erin: Here's a sticky situation: your peer becomes your employee. You get promoted, and Joe, who used to be your sidekick and confidant, is now reporting to you. How do you build this new level of trust when the relationship changes?

Minda: That happens a lot, and it can be sticky depending on which side of the friendship you're on.

A big part of it is transparency. Talk about the elephant in the room.

You might say, "I know we have a great working relationship, and now I'm in this leadership position. There may be times when I have to put certain priorities first, but I want you to know you can always come to me. I hope we can have two relationships: our working relationship and our friendship. There may be times when I have sensitive information I can't talk about like I could before, but I hope we can find that balance."

I would much rather someone be transparent with me and create that sense of security than pretend I don't exist anymore or start acting weird.

Nine times out of ten, if people would communicate instead of being conflict avoidant, we could have better relationships.

We create narratives that it can't work, but why not talk about how it can work? Say, "If it ever feels like our friendship isn't there, or I'm acting differently because I'm in this role, tell me. I value that."

We have to say what we mean without being mean.

Erin: Exactly. Say the thing you're already going to say to your coach or your partner. Why not say it to the actual person?

Minda: Yes. Because now I have that information. I may think everything is fine, but you may feel like, "We used to talk every day, and now we only talk once a month."

You might assume I don't care as much now that I have this leadership title, when really, I'm just busy and hadn't thought about it.

Again, many of these things are communication issues before they become trust issues.

Green-Lighting Yourself

Erin: You haven't just focused on trust. You're also a filmmaker, and part of that is telling stories about real-life situations, friendships, and the things that make life beautiful and complicated.

So many people listening are trying to make work suck less, but they're also looking for inspiration to do things that feel uncomfortable or outlandish. Can you talk about the filmmaking side?

Minda: I never intended to be an author. I fell into it. So I would encourage people to remember that you can learn new things.

During the pandemic, I started taking screenwriting classes because I knew I wanted to take the stories I'd been telling and share them in another medium. I wanted to be a better storyteller, and I'm a big advocate of investing in yourself.

Whether I win an Oscar, a Webby, or nothing, I wanted to enhance that skill. I also thought about the intellectual property I have and how I could tell those stories in different ways.

I started taking classes about six years ago. At some point, I said, "I'm not going to wait for the green light from somebody else. I'm going to green light myself."

So I started making short films. I kept taking coursework, reading books, finding my crew on social media, and asking people around. Now I'm four short films in, and they've been in many festivals.

It feels good to uncover a new area of my life that I'm good at. Maybe I'll win Oscars in the future. Maybe I won't. But I'm enjoying this part of my life because it's another way to get stories heard by people who may never read my books.

Erin: You said something so simple: "I took a class." So many times we act like we don't even know where to start. But there's a class for everything.

Minda: Everything.

Erin: Just take the class. Get curious.

Minda: I'll tell you and your listeners a secret. Since I was a teenager, I've always wanted to take piano lessons. Every year, I'd put it on the vision board: "Take piano lessons." And I never did.

But later today, I'm taking my first piano lesson.

I may end up in a recital with preschoolers, but this is for me. Sometimes we just have to do things for us.

Minda's "Buck That" Story

Erin: We always ask people for their "buck that" story. It's a time when you bucked the norm, went against the grain, and something good happened as a result. Do you have one?

Minda: Yes. It's the intersection where I sit now.

I was in corporate America for 15 years, and in 2015, I started this dinosaur thing called a blog. I was frustrated about the workplace I was in. There was no trust anywhere.

The blog was a way for me to talk about what I was experiencing, not from a "woe is me" place, but from a place of, "If anybody else is feeling this way, here are the tips I wish I had used or that I'm working through."

Every Monday, I put out a memo. Eventually, those memos became my first bestselling book, The Memo. I had no idea that would happen. Now I'm on book four and making films.

So sow those seeds. Take the step.

I left a very stable job, and I was terrified. I'm type A. I love stability because I didn't have a lot of it growing up. I thought, "Give me the gold watch. I'm here forever."

Taking that leap, betting on myself, and bucking the system showed me that success isn't just one way. I think I'm a constant "buck that" girl now. That's just how I live.

Erin: Once you buck it once and it works out, that's the end of the story. That's why we love to share these stories for people who are holding themselves back.

One Last Tip to Make Work Suck Less

Erin: What's your one last tip to make work suck less?

Minda: Ask yourself, "What do I want out of work?"

Sometimes we do things at work to make work work for everybody else, but we never consider what it needs to look like for us.

Once you understand what you need, you can ask for it more clearly. Not what the person next to you wants. Not what someone on Microsoft Teams wants. What is really going to make you say, "This was worth the ride"?

We should remember that we are good enough to deserve the best workplace possible.

After years of advising CEOs and senior leaders, she's learned that the higher you climb, the more the same human stuff shows up: insecurity, miscommunication, fear of failure, and avoiding the conversations nobody wants to have.

In this episode, Erin sits down with the self-proclaimed "C-Suite Whisperer" , Paru Radia, to talk about tough conversations, turning adversity into an advantage, and why standing still might be the riskiest thing you can do. Along the way, Paru shares lessons from her own journey and her no-BS coaching style.

Some of the things you'll hear are:

-Why Paru actually loves tough conversations (and how to stop dreading them)

-How being bullied, underestimated, and treated like an outsider became her superpower

-Why "magic happens in momentum"

If you've ever felt stuck, overlooked, or unsure of your next move, this episode will challenge how you think about growth, leadership, and success.

Check out Paru's Website

Connect with Paru on LinkedIn

Book Erin to speak

Ready to modernize your culture, liberate your leadership, and differentiate your business without sounding like every other company on LinkedIn?

Bring Erin Hatzikostas in to show your team how authenticity can become an actual strategic advantage, not just another corporate buzzword. Book Erin to Speak

If you'd like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple "plays" to stop selling out and start standing out at https://bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com/freebie

If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!

- Follow Erin on LinkedIn or Instagram

- Take our simple, fun and insightful"What's your workplace superhero name?"quiz

- Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin's book,"You Do You (ish)"

-Throw out half the playbook and start competing in a league of your own. Check out Erin's book, The 50% Rule.

-Work with Us

-Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here

To connect with Erin and/or Nicole, email: [email protected]

DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsustainable for younger audiences.

Tweetable Comments

"Don't self-filter and be apologetic about something. It is what it is.

"If you are not confident about the things that you don't like about yourself, you are giving people ammunition to also dislike you. Just own it."

"Magic happens in momentum."

"The magic won't happen if something is standing still. You need other things to happen for the reaction to happen, which equates to magic."

Editor's note: This transcript has been edited for clarity, readability, and length while preserving the core conversation and key teaching moments.

In this episode, Erin talks with executive strategist Paru Radia about how to navigate tough conversations at work, communicate with more clarity, own the messy parts of your story, and use momentum to create real career growth. Their conversation covers executive coaching, leadership communication, performance reviews, workplace conflict, career transitions, and the real-life messes behind success.

Transcript

Why Paru Calls Herself the C-Suite Whisperer

Erin: You call yourself the C-Suite Whisperer. If I saw that on a page without knowing you, I might side-eye it. But after meeting you, I thought, "Oh my gosh, she totally is." Where did that come from?

Paru: I was talking to a client a few years ago, describing what I do without making it sound too prescriptive. I was explaining how I listen, question, translate, and help executives understand what is really happening.

I thought of the show Ghost Whisperer, where someone translates what ghosts are saying to the people who cannot hear them. I realized, "I do what she does, but for executives." So I said, "I'm a C-Suite whisperer."

She completely got it. A week later, she told someone she had hired a C-Suite whisperer, then wrote about me on LinkedIn using that phrase. So I thought, "I guess that's what I am."

Erin: I love that idea of translating between what someone says and what people actually hear. What gets mistranslated the most when you are working with executives?

Paru: Intention. And that applies to everyone.

People are often so busy thinking about themselves, what they mean, and what they think other people are hearing that they miss how the message is actually landing. I do not mean that in an arrogant way. No matter how senior you get, it is the same stuff with more at stake.

It is the same insecurity, the same miscommunication, the same desire for the business to be successful, the same desire to look good, be liked, be understood, be seen, and be heard. We are all human. The stakes just get higher.

How Childhood Shaped Her Ability to Read People

Erin: I saw in another interview that when you were asked what time in your life you would change, you mentioned primary school and high school. What were those years like, and how did they shape the bold person you are now?

Paru: I want to be careful with that answer. I am really happy in my life now, and I know I would not be where I am today without everything I experienced. But if I could still be where I am today and remove some of the pain from those years, I would.

I grew up in a very conservative, traditional Indian household in the seventies and early eighties in racist Britain. We had bricks thrown through our window. We had racial slurs shouted at us. As a child, I had people on the street threaten me because I was Indian. It was scary.

Some of that racism translated to school. I was made fun of for being Indian. I was also a chubby kid, so I was made fun of for that too.

What happened was that it became safer for me to observe than to participate. It was safer to figure out where the next landmine was or where the next grenade might be thrown.

That has worked in my favor now. I observe closely. I have a very keen eye and a very keen ear. I think some of that came from life circumstances that forced me to develop those skills.

Erin: That makes so much sense. For people listening who have gone through challenges, trauma, or difficult experiences, how do they start to turn those things into a strength?

Paru: First, be kind to yourself. And I do not mean that in a fluffy way. I mean dig deep and own everything about yourself.

I am a big advocate of owning all of it. When I work with clients, I am their biggest fan, but I am also very direct. I often say that when you work with me, you will be punched and hugged at the same time.

I am not soft. I will tell you things other people are too scared to tell you. I will tell you things you may not want to hear. But I am also there to catch you. I am not doing it to be mean. I am doing it to be real, so we can actually address what is happening.

The first step is not self-filtering or apologizing for what is true. If something happened, it happened. If you messed something up, own it. If you do not like something about yourself, name it.

Many people start to malfunction when they are not being who they really are. When you try to cover something up or perform as someone else, it creates friction. It is what it is. Own it.

If you are not confident about the things you dislike about yourself, you give other people ammunition to dislike those things too. Own them. There are things about me I do not think are fantastic, but I love them anyway. It has taken me a long time to get here.

Why Tough Conversations Matter

Erin: One thing I wanted to talk to you about is tough conversations at work. The employee who is not performing. The job elimination. The numbers that are not hitting forecast. A lot of smart, capable people want to crawl under their desk when it is time to have those conversations. What advice do you give them?

Paru: I love tough conversations.

Erin: Why?

Paru: Because they are the beginning of something different. Once you have the tough conversation, something is going to change. It might be an action, a perception, or a mindset, but something shifts.

I am all for change. I challenge the status quo all the time. I am always looking to be better, do better, and grow. I want that for my clients too.

When it comes to tough conversations, language is incredibly important. If I were giving general advice, I would say: get out of your own head and be factual.

Avoid making everything about "you," because that can sound aggressive. Keep it business-focused. Ask questions. Do not go straight into the conversation without understanding the other person. Be genuinely curious.

I start many difficult conversations by asking for the person's understanding of the topic first. That way, we are on the same page. Then I can share my definition or perspective.

That moves me from being opposite them to being next to them. It becomes, "This is how I am looking at it. How are you looking at it?"

Then I stay factual. I might say, "The business needs this. The problem we have is this. What do you think we could do about that?"

If their answer is not feasible, I might say, "Here is what I am thinking. What are your thoughts on that?"

Behavioral issues are different and need more specific examples, but in general, curiosity, clarity, and facts matter.

How to Approach a Performance Conversation

Erin: Let's use an example. Joe is a project manager. He has moments of brilliance, but he is inconsistent. Sometimes he solves a big problem. Other times, he makes promises he cannot deliver, or his work is not good. How would you coach someone to have that conversation?

Paru: There is a lot I would want to understand first. I would want to know what is going through Joe's mind when he performs well, and what is going through his mind when he does not.

I would ask whether Joe agrees with the assessment that he is inconsistent. Does he think he is not performing well? What does "well" look like to him? What outcome does he want?

I am very outcome-focused. I always ask, "What outcome are you looking for?" Then we work backwards.

Many people start from where they are and move forward, but ego and fear get in the way. They think, "I do not want to look bad. I do not want them to think this. I do not want to say that."

As a kid, I never saw the point of doing a maze by constantly hitting walls. I would start in the middle, draw the path backwards, and say, "This is the way to get there." I approach coaching the same way.

When we start with the outcome, ego becomes less of a problem. We can say, "If you want that outcome, it will take this. You will need to say this. You will need to do that."

Once the person can see the outcome clearly, they are usually willing to put their ego aside because they know what they are aiming for.

Erin: So with Joe, instead of starting with, "How do you think you are doing?" you would start with what he wants?

Paru: Yes. If Joe says, "I want a promotion," I would ask, "What do you think it would take for that promotion to be awarded to you?"

He might say he needs to perform at a certain level. Then I would ask, "What would it take to perform at that level?" We would look at relationships, technical ability, consistency, communication, and everything else involved.

If relationships are part of the issue, I would ask, "What would your relationship with your boss need to look like?"

I do not call myself a coach. I am an executive strategist. Coaching is part of what I do, but I am also opinionated and will share my perspective. I do not do that upfront. I want the client to get there first, but if they do not, I will share what I see.

So I might say, "To me, it sounds like your boss needs to see this, this, and this. Right now, you are not showing it. What can we do to make sure you show that?"

Why Clarity Changes the Conversation

Erin: I love that because so many people go into reviews and ask broad questions like, "How do you think you are doing?" But that can feel like a trap.

Paru: Exactly. I like asking a lot of questions to get clarity. Clarity is the first word on my website because it matters so much.

When there is clarity, you can have conversations without obsessing over, "What are they going to think? How are they going to take it? What if they do not understand me?"

If someone asks me a question that is too broad, I usually do not answer it right away. I ask for context.

If someone asked me in a performance review, "How do you think you are doing?" I would either break the answer into categories or ask, "Is there a specific context for that question, or is there a category you would like me to focus on first?"

That way, I know I am answering the question they are actually asking, not the question I think they might be asking.

Erin: That is such a useful takeaway. If someone asks a question that feels too big or like a landmine, you can ask for clarity. You can say, "Are you asking about my attitude, my deadlines, my communication, or something else?"

Paru: Yes. It gives everyone a better chance of having the real conversation.

Preparing for High-Stakes Business Conversations

Erin: Let's say someone is going into a quarterly business review with their boss, the CFO, and other senior leaders. The business has missed revenue numbers three months in a row. Most people would dread that conversation. How would you advise them to go into it?

Paru: If there is going to be a tough conversation with a group, I would get to the audience before they are all in the same room.

Relationships are easier one-to-one. If there are four senior stakeholders in the room, I would try to speak with each one individually beforehand.

I want to know what I am walking into. I want to be able to predict what is coming my way. If I can preempt some of that through individual conversations, I am better equipped to have a potential solution, even if I have not fully actioned it yet.

I might still get hurt a little, but I am less likely to get destroyed by the meeting.

Erin: So you would have those pre-conversations, understand the feedback and questions, and make sure the missed numbers are not a surprise. What else?

Paru: I would want to know why the numbers were missed. What went wrong? How can it be fixed? How can you make sure it does not happen again? What will you do differently? How do you feel about it?

Then I would help the person take ownership of the parts they are responsible for. I would help them own the mistakes with confidence instead of becoming defensive.

No one wants to deal with someone who is defensive. The audience is already taking care of themselves. They do not have time to take care of your defensiveness too.

Go into the meeting understanding the problems, owning the mistakes, and bringing possible solutions.

Why Magic Happens in Momentum

Erin: You said something that caught my eye: "Magic happens in momentum." Tell us more about that.

Paru: I had that as the screenshot on my phone for about a year. There is an old saying that standing still is the equivalent of moving backwards. Things move. Things change. People evolve. Time passes. If you are not moving, you are going backwards.

Even if you are scared, do it anyway. Change will happen. You will grow. You will learn something. You might learn, "I do not like that," or "That did not work," but at least now you know and can move forward.

I am a big fan of momentum. Standing still bores me. That is my personality. Some people love stability. I am not risk-averse. I like newness, change, and growth. Momentum creates that.

Erin: When I read that, I thought about momentum in relationships too. Someone sends an email saying, "I loved your book," or "I loved your coaching session." There is a difference between responding three days later and capturing that energy in the moment.

Paru: Yes. People are forgetful, and enthusiasm dwindles.

If someone says, "I loved your book," and you respond a month later, they have already moved on to the next shiny object. The effort it takes to remind them how great you are becomes wasted energy.

When there is energy, build on it. That is what improv taught me too. I did improv classes for a year, and so much of improv is about building on other people's ideas. Momentum works the same way. You do something, then the next thing, then the next thing.

Magic is the result of action causing a reaction. If everything is standing still, nothing reacts. You need movement for the reaction to happen.

The Expiration Date on Favors

Erin: For our listeners, especially corporate women in mid-career and up, momentum is so important in relationships and sponsorship. If a senior leader notices what you are doing or reaches out after a good meeting, grab that momentum.

Paru: I have the same theory with favors. If you have done something for someone and they say, "Let me know if there is anything I can do for you," there is always an expiration date on that offer.

If there is something they can genuinely do, do not waste the favor. But if there is something meaningful, ask while the momentum is there.

They have just experienced the good feeling of what you did for them. That feeling will dwindle. People get distracted. Later, they may still help, but it is harder.

Erin: A body in motion tends to stay in motion.

Paru: Exactly.

The Messes Behind Successes

Erin: I want to talk about your book, Messes Behind Successes. What is the premise?

Paru: It is about navigating reality on your rise to the top.

I am tired of reading books about unicorn billionaires. I am happy for them, but many of those stories sound like, "Life was tough, I lost money, then I was on the golf course with my dad's best friend and he invested in my business. Now look at me."

That is great for them, but how does that help the rest of us? I do not have a rich dad. I do not have a golf course. I did not go to Harvard, and most people did not either.

We hear success stories, but we rarely get a real how-to guide for navigating the mess on the way there.

Mess is real. People get married. People get divorced. People move houses or countries. People get sick. People pass away. That is the personal side.

At work, you may not get along with your boss. You may not get the promotion. You may mess up an interview, a meeting, or a target. You may be scared you are going to get fired. People do not talk enough about those moments.

I am interviewing C-suite leaders who look very successful on paper, and many of them are successful and happy. But they had so much mess along the way.

I want to share those stories so people do not feel alone, and so they have tangible examples of how to navigate real life and still make it.

Erin: I love that. Those are the stories people need when they are wondering whether they should go for the career move, the big meeting, the executive job, or the new business. It is inspiring to hear how people got through the hard parts.

Paru: Exactly. The mess is part of the story.

Helping People Recalibrate in Career and Life

Erin: Who is your ideal client? Who might be listening and think, "I would really benefit from working with Paru"?

Paru: I work with executives in corporations, first-time CEOs, C-suite leaders, rising C-suite leaders, small businesses, startups, and multi-billion-dollar companies.

I love working with first-time CEOs because they often do not realize how great they are, and I get to help them shine.

I also work with individuals in transition. A lot of people come to me saying, "I want to do this," or "I want to do that," and I ask, "Why?" I really want to know why.

About half the time, once they answer that question, they realize they have been working so hard for a dream that is no longer their dream. Their dream has changed.

I love when those epiphanies happen. I like helping people in transition understand who they are deep down.

Things happen along the way, and sometimes people need to recalibrate. Who are you today because of everything that happened, or despite everything that happened? What does today's version of you want?

That is what I want to know, and then I want to help you get there.

Where to Find Paru

Erin: Where can people follow you and get more of your brilliance?

Paru: The only social media platform I am on is LinkedIn. You can find me there as Paru Radia. You can also visit my website.

I share a lot of my thoughts, stories, and lessons on LinkedIn. The book also includes many personal stories, including some I cringed while writing. But they are a big part of who I have become, how I think, and how I operate.

Erin: Please promise me you will read your own audiobook.

Paru: I absolutely will.

Erin: Good. Your personality and authenticity need to come through in the audio version. Thank you for sharing your candor, your insights, and part of yourself with us today.

Paru: Thank you for opening the door into your world and letting me in. It has been so much fun.